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Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2011 07:31:22 -0700
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Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-tp-rsvpte-ext-associated-lsp-01.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane =
Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : RSVP-TE Extensions to Establish Associated Bidirectional=
 LSP
	Author(s)       : Fei Zhang
                          Ruiquan Jing
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-tp-rsvpte-ext-associated-lsp-01.txt
	Pages           : 16
	Date            : 2011-06-01

   The MPLS Transport Profile (MPLS-TP) requirements document [RFC5654],
   describes that MPLS-TP MUST support associated bidirectional point-
   to-point LSPs.

   This document provides a method to bind two unidirectional Label
   Switched Paths (LSPs) into an associated bidirectional LSP.  The
   association is achieved by using a new Association Type in the
   Extended ASSOCIATION object.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-tp-rsvpte-ext-ass=
ociated-lsp-01.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-tp-rsvpte-ext-asso=
ciated-lsp-01.txt

From sunwq@mit.edu  Thu Jun  2 01:20:18 2011
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Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2011 16:20:00 +0800
From: Weiqiang Sun <sunwq@MIT.EDU>
Sender: Weiqiang Sun <sun.weiqiang@gmail.com>
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Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-dpm-03.txt
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Subject: [CCAMP] FW:  I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-dpm-03.txt
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Hi all,

We have recently updated the draft-ietf-ccamp-dpm with a few editorial
Changes.

Comments are welcome as always.

Best regards,
Weiqiang and co-authors



On 5/24/11 9:51 AM, "internet-drafts@ietf.org" <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
wrote:

>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and
>Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.
>
>	Title           : Label Switched Path (LSP) Data Path Delay Metrics in
>Generalized MPLS/ MPLS-TE Networks
>	Author(s)       : Weiqiang Sun
>                          Guoying Zhang
>	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-dpm-03.txt
>	Pages           : 34
>	Date            : 2011-05-23
>
>   When setting up a label switched path (LSP) in Generalized MPLS and
>   MPLS/TE networks, the completion of the signaling process does not
>   necessarily mean that the cross connection along the LSP have been
>   programmed accordingly and in a timely manner.  Meanwhile, the
>   completion of signaling process may be used by applications as
>   indication that data path has become usable.  The existence of this
>   delay and the possible failure of cross connection programming, if
>   not properly treated, will result in data loss or even application
>   failure.  Characterization of this performance can thus help
>   designers to improve the application model and to build more robust
>   applications.  This document defines a series of performance metrics
>   to evaluate the availability of data path in the signaling process.
>
>
>A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-dpm-03.txt
>
>Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
>This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
>ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-dpm-03.txt
>_______________________________________________
>CCAMP mailing list
>CCAMP@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp



From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Mon Jun  6 20:42:52 2011
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Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2011 20:42:51 -0700
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Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-04.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane =
Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : Link Management Protocol Behavior Negotiation and Config=
uration Modifications
	Author(s)       : Dan Li
                          Daniele Ceccarelli
                          Lou Berger
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-04.txt
	Pages           : 11
	Date            : 2011-06-06

   The Link Management Protocol (LMP) is used to coordinate the
   properties, use, and faults of data links in Generalized
   Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) networks. This document
   defines an extension to LMP to negotiate capabilities and indicate
   support for LMP extensions. The defined extension is compatible
   with non-supporting implementations.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiati=
on-04.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiatio=
n-04.txt

From huawei.danli@huawei.com  Tue Jun  7 00:07:08 2011
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From: Dan Li <huawei.danli@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-04.txt
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Hi all,

We have updated this draft according to the comments we have received during last Prague meeting and the follow up discussions in the mailing list.
1) Added a new section (section 2--LMP Message Modifications) to address the multiple config object issue. And introduced the config object to ConfigAck and ConfigNack to allow explicit identification of non-supporting nodes;
2) Renamed BEHAVIOR_CONFIG to BehaviorConfig to be consistent with 4240 naming style;
3) Introduced separate format and procedures sub-sections in section 2 and 3;
4) Slightly changed the format of BehaviorConfig, "B" bit was dropped;
5) Revised backward compatibility section based on above changes;
6) Added Lou as a co-author.

We believe the draft (04 version) is in a good shape, all the comments have been addressed, and it's ready for WG LC.

Thanks,

Authors of lmp-behavior-negotiation draft




----- Original Message ----- 
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
To: <i-d-announce@ietf.org>
Cc: <ccamp@ietf.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 11:42 AM
Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-04.txt


>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.
> 
> Title           : Link Management Protocol Behavior Negotiation and Configuration Modifications
> Author(s)       : Dan Li
>                          Daniele Ceccarelli
>                          Lou Berger
> Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-04.txt
> Pages           : 11
> Date            : 2011-06-06
> 
>   The Link Management Protocol (LMP) is used to coordinate the
>   properties, use, and faults of data links in Generalized
>   Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) networks. This document
>   defines an extension to LMP to negotiate capabilities and indicate
>   support for LMP extensions. The defined extension is compatible
>   with non-supporting implementations.
> 
> 
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-04.txt
> 
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> 
> This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-04.txt
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

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From huawei.danli@huawei.com  Tue Jun  7 17:11:32 2011
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Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2011 08:11:27 +0800
From: Dan Li <huawei.danli@huawei.com>
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References: <20110607034251.26283.45934.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <014601cc24e1$58f255e0$7d4d460a@china.huawei.com>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-04.txt
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Hello,

To clarify my previous mail: The authors believe that the document is ready for additional review from the WG in preparation for WG LC. Please review and comment.

Thanks,

Dan

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dan Li" <huawei.danli@huawei.com>
To: <ccamp@ietf.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-04.txt


> Hi all,
> 
> We have updated this draft according to the comments we have received during last Prague meeting and the follow up discussions in the mailing list.
> 1) Added a new section (section 2--LMP Message Modifications) to address the multiple config object issue. And introduced the config object to ConfigAck and ConfigNack to allow explicit identification of non-supporting nodes;
> 2) Renamed BEHAVIOR_CONFIG to BehaviorConfig to be consistent with 4240 naming style;
> 3) Introduced separate format and procedures sub-sections in section 2 and 3;
> 4) Slightly changed the format of BehaviorConfig, "B" bit was dropped;
> 5) Revised backward compatibility section based on above changes;
> 6) Added Lou as a co-author.
> 
> We believe the draft (04 version) is in a good shape, all the comments have been addressed, and it's ready for WG LC.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Authors of lmp-behavior-negotiation draft
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
> To: <i-d-announce@ietf.org>
> Cc: <ccamp@ietf.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 11:42 AM
> Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-04.txt
> 
> 
>>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.
>> 
>> Title           : Link Management Protocol Behavior Negotiation and Configuration Modifications
>> Author(s)       : Dan Li
>>                          Daniele Ceccarelli
>>                          Lou Berger
>> Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-04.txt
>> Pages           : 11
>> Date            : 2011-06-06
>> 
>>   The Link Management Protocol (LMP) is used to coordinate the
>>   properties, use, and faults of data links in Generalized
>>   Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) networks. This document
>>   defines an extension to LMP to negotiate capabilities and indicate
>>   support for LMP extensions. The defined extension is compatible
>>   with non-supporting implementations.
>> 
>> 
>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-04.txt
>> 
>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>> 
>> This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-04.txt
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>

From Sirish.Vadloori@ecitele.com  Wed Jun  8 21:00:45 2011
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From: Sirish Vadloori <Sirish.Vadloori@ecitele.com>
To: Dan Li <huawei.danli@huawei.com>, "ccamp@ietf.org" <ccamp@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 07:00:37 +0300
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-04.txt
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References: <20110607034251.26283.45934.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <014601cc24e1$58f255e0$7d4d460a@china.huawei.com> <003501cc2570$9c93d280$7d4d460a@china.huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-04.txt
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Hello,

I have read the draft. I have a suggestion, please let me know if that makes=
 sense here.

There are 3 bits here which have got a significance.

0                   1                   2                   3
    0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |S|D|C|                   Must Be Zero (MBZ)                    |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Could we dedicate a bit to specify the support of OTN specific ports (OTUk/=
 ODUk).
We are working on a product which is OTN based and we are on the high tide i=
n implementing LMP for OTN.

Best Regards,
-Sirish

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Li [mailto:huawei.danli@huawei.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 5:41 AM
To: ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-0=
4.txt

Hello,

To clarify my previous mail: The authors believe that the document is ready=
 for additional review from the WG in preparation for WG LC. Please review a=
nd comment.

Thanks,

Dan

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dan Li" <huawei.danli@huawei.com>
To: <ccamp@ietf.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-0=
4.txt


> Hi all,
> 
> We have updated this draft according to the comments we have received duri=
ng last Prague meeting and the follow up discussions in the mailing list.
> 1) Added a new section (section 2--LMP Message Modifications) to address t=
he multiple config object issue. And introduced the config object to ConfigA=
ck and ConfigNack to allow explicit identification of non-supporting nodes;
> 2) Renamed BEHAVIOR_CONFIG to BehaviorConfig to be consistent with 4240 na=
ming style;
> 3) Introduced separate format and procedures sub-sections in section 2 and=
 3;
> 4) Slightly changed the format of BehaviorConfig, "B" bit was dropped;
> 5) Revised backward compatibility section based on above changes;
> 6) Added Lou as a co-author.
> 
> We believe the draft (04 version) is in a good shape, all the comments hav=
e been addressed, and it's ready for WG LC.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Authors of lmp-behavior-negotiation draft
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
> To: <i-d-announce@ietf.org>
> Cc: <ccamp@ietf.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 11:42 AM
> Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-04.=
txt
> 
> 
>>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directo=
ries. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane=
 Working Group of the IETF.
>> 
>> Title           : Link Management Protocol Behavior Negotiation and Confi=
guration Modifications
>> Author(s)       : Dan Li
>>                          Daniele Ceccarelli
>>                          Lou Berger
>> Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-04.txt
>> Pages           : 11
>> Date            : 2011-06-06
>> 
>>   The Link Management Protocol (LMP) is used to coordinate the
>>   properties, use, and faults of data links in Generalized
>>   Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) networks. This document
>>   defines an extension to LMP to negotiate capabilities and indicate
>>   support for LMP extensions. The defined extension is compatible
>>   with non-supporting implementations.
>> 
>> 
>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotia=
tion-04.txt
>> 
>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>> 
>> This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiat=
ion-04.txt
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>



This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informat=
ion which is CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If yo=
u have received this transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phon=
e or fax, and then delete the original and all copies thereof.


From huawei.danli@huawei.com  Wed Jun  8 22:59:16 2011
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Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2011 13:59:09 +0800
From: Dan Li <huawei.danli@huawei.com>
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To: Sirish Vadloori <Sirish.Vadloori@ecitele.com>, ccamp@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-04.txt
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Hi Sirish,

Thanks for the comment. 

The negotiaed behaviors (such as S, D and C bits) defined in this draft only reflect the behaviors already defined in the published RFCs. For the future extensions to LMP for other functions or technologies will require the definition of further LMP messages.

You may also noticed that one of the references in this draft:
[LMP TEST] D. Ceccarelli, Ed., "Link Management Protocol (LMP) Test Messages Extensions for Evolutive Optical Transport Networks (OTN)" draft-ceccarelli-ccamp-gmpls-g709-lmp-test-02.txt, May, 2010.

With respect to OTN case, the negotiated behavior can be defined in [LMP TEST] draft.

Thanks,

Dan
 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sirish Vadloori" <Sirish.Vadloori@ecitele.com>
To: "Dan Li" <huawei.danli@huawei.com>; <ccamp@ietf.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2011 12:00 PM
Subject: RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-04.txt


Hello,

I have read the draft. I have a suggestion, please let me know if that makes sense here.

There are 3 bits here which have got a significance.

0                   1                   2                   3
    0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |S|D|C|                   Must Be Zero (MBZ)                    |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Could we dedicate a bit to specify the support of OTN specific ports (OTUk/ ODUk).
We are working on a product which is OTN based and we are on the high tide in implementing LMP for OTN.

Best Regards,
-Sirish

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Li [mailto:huawei.danli@huawei.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 5:41 AM
To: ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-04.txt

Hello,

To clarify my previous mail: The authors believe that the document is ready for additional review from the WG in preparation for WG LC. Please review and comment.

Thanks,

Dan

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dan Li" <huawei.danli@huawei.com>
To: <ccamp@ietf.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-04.txt


> Hi all,
> 
> We have updated this draft according to the comments we have received during last Prague meeting and the follow up discussions in the mailing list.
> 1) Added a new section (section 2--LMP Message Modifications) to address the multiple config object issue. And introduced the config object to ConfigAck and ConfigNack to allow explicit identification of non-supporting nodes;
> 2) Renamed BEHAVIOR_CONFIG to BehaviorConfig to be consistent with 4240 naming style;
> 3) Introduced separate format and procedures sub-sections in section 2 and 3;
> 4) Slightly changed the format of BehaviorConfig, "B" bit was dropped;
> 5) Revised backward compatibility section based on above changes;
> 6) Added Lou as a co-author.
> 
> We believe the draft (04 version) is in a good shape, all the comments have been addressed, and it's ready for WG LC.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Authors of lmp-behavior-negotiation draft
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
> To: <i-d-announce@ietf.org>
> Cc: <ccamp@ietf.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 11:42 AM
> Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-04.txt
> 
> 
>>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.
>> 
>> Title           : Link Management Protocol Behavior Negotiation and Configuration Modifications
>> Author(s)       : Dan Li
>>                          Daniele Ceccarelli
>>                          Lou Berger
>> Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-04.txt
>> Pages           : 11
>> Date            : 2011-06-06
>> 
>>   The Link Management Protocol (LMP) is used to coordinate the
>>   properties, use, and faults of data links in Generalized
>>   Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) networks. This document
>>   defines an extension to LMP to negotiate capabilities and indicate
>>   support for LMP extensions. The defined extension is compatible
>>   with non-supporting implementations.
>> 
>> 
>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-04.txt
>> 
>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>> 
>> This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-04.txt
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>



This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains information which is CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have received this transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then delete the original and all copies thereof.

From Sirish.Vadloori@ecitele.com  Thu Jun  9 00:53:38 2011
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From: Sirish Vadloori <Sirish.Vadloori@ecitele.com>
To: Dan Li <huawei.danli@huawei.com>, "ccamp@ietf.org" <ccamp@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 10:53:32 +0300
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-04.txt
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-04.txt
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Hello Dan,

Thank you for the clarification.
As you said - Yes - With respect to OTN case the negotiated behavior can be=
 a part of [LMP TEST] draft.

Best Regards,
-Sirish

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Li [mailto:huawei.danli@huawei.com] 
Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2011 11:29 AM
To: Sirish Vadloori; ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-0=
4.txt

Hi Sirish,

Thanks for the comment. 

The negotiaed behaviors (such as S, D and C bits) defined in this draft only=
 reflect the behaviors already defined in the published RFCs. For the future=
 extensions to LMP for other functions or technologies will require the defi=
nition of further LMP messages.

You may also noticed that one of the references in this draft:
[LMP TEST] D. Ceccarelli, Ed., "Link Management Protocol (LMP) Test Messages=
 Extensions for Evolutive Optical Transport Networks (OTN)" draft-ceccarelli=
-ccamp-gmpls-g709-lmp-test-02.txt, May, 2010.

With respect to OTN case, the negotiated behavior can be defined in [LMP TES=
T] draft.

Thanks,

Dan
 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sirish Vadloori" <Sirish.Vadloori@ecitele.com>
To: "Dan Li" <huawei.danli@huawei.com>; <ccamp@ietf.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2011 12:00 PM
Subject: RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-0=
4.txt


Hello,

I have read the draft. I have a suggestion, please let me know if that makes=
 sense here.

There are 3 bits here which have got a significance.

0                   1                   2                   3
    0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |S|D|C|                   Must Be Zero (MBZ)                    |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Could we dedicate a bit to specify the support of OTN specific ports (OTUk/=
 ODUk).
We are working on a product which is OTN based and we are on the high tide i=
n implementing LMP for OTN.

Best Regards,
-Sirish

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Li [mailto:huawei.danli@huawei.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 5:41 AM
To: ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-0=
4.txt

Hello,

To clarify my previous mail: The authors believe that the document is ready=
 for additional review from the WG in preparation for WG LC. Please review a=
nd comment.

Thanks,

Dan

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dan Li" <huawei.danli@huawei.com>
To: <ccamp@ietf.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-0=
4.txt


> Hi all,
> 
> We have updated this draft according to the comments we have received duri=
ng last Prague meeting and the follow up discussions in the mailing list.
> 1) Added a new section (section 2--LMP Message Modifications) to address t=
he multiple config object issue. And introduced the config object to ConfigA=
ck and ConfigNack to allow explicit identification of non-supporting nodes;
> 2) Renamed BEHAVIOR_CONFIG to BehaviorConfig to be consistent with 4240 na=
ming style;
> 3) Introduced separate format and procedures sub-sections in section 2 and=
 3;
> 4) Slightly changed the format of BehaviorConfig, "B" bit was dropped;
> 5) Revised backward compatibility section based on above changes;
> 6) Added Lou as a co-author.
> 
> We believe the draft (04 version) is in a good shape, all the comments hav=
e been addressed, and it's ready for WG LC.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Authors of lmp-behavior-negotiation draft
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
> To: <i-d-announce@ietf.org>
> Cc: <ccamp@ietf.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 11:42 AM
> Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-04.=
txt
> 
> 
>>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directo=
ries. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane=
 Working Group of the IETF.
>> 
>> Title           : Link Management Protocol Behavior Negotiation and Confi=
guration Modifications
>> Author(s)       : Dan Li
>>                          Daniele Ceccarelli
>>                          Lou Berger
>> Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-04.txt
>> Pages           : 11
>> Date            : 2011-06-06
>> 
>>   The Link Management Protocol (LMP) is used to coordinate the
>>   properties, use, and faults of data links in Generalized
>>   Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) networks. This document
>>   defines an extension to LMP to negotiate capabilities and indicate
>>   support for LMP extensions. The defined extension is compatible
>>   with non-supporting implementations.
>> 
>> 
>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotia=
tion-04.txt
>> 
>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>> 
>> This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiat=
ion-04.txt
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>



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From pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.com  Fri Jun 10 07:20:01 2011
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Hi Ccampers,

During Prague meeting I was asked to provide a draft detailing the solution=
 we were presenting then concerning OSPF-TE extensions for Wavelength Switc=
hed Optical Networks (see point 10 of ccamp minutes).
Julien, Giovanni, Cyril and I have tackled this work of providing a complet=
e description of the solution with commonalities and deltas from the existi=
ng solution held in the following drafts:
  - draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-11
  - draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-04
  - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-00
  - draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-11
  - draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-04

Feedback from the working group is welcome.

To trigger this feedback, this draft holds inside section 5 a numerical stu=
dy on the amount of static and dynamic information to be flooded.
This study was conducted on various typical WSON nodes and compares the siz=
e of the LSAs between the two solutions.

Regards,

- Pierre

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Subject: [CCAMP] Protocol Action: 'Operating Virtual Concatenation (VCAT) and the Link	Capacity Adjustment Scheme (LCAS) with Generalized	Multi-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS)' to Proposed Standard	(draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-13.txt)
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The IESG has approved the following document:
- 'Operating Virtual Concatenation (VCAT) and the Link Capacity
   Adjustment Scheme (LCAS) with Generalized Multi-Protocol Label
   Switching (GMPLS)'
  (draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas-13.txt) as a Proposed Standard

This document is the product of the Common Control and Measurement Plane
Working Group.

The IESG contact persons are Adrian Farrel and Stewart Bryant.

A URL of this Internet Draft is:
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-vcat-lcas/




Technical Summary

  This document describes requirements for, and use of, the Generalized
  Multi-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS) control plane in support of
  the Virtual Concatenation (VCAT) layer 1 inverse multiplexing data
  plane mechanism and its companion Link Capacity Adjustment Scheme
  (LCAS) which can be used for hitless dynamic resizing of the inverse
  multiplex group. These techniques apply to Optical Transport Network
  (OTN), Synchronous Optical Network (SONET), Synchronous Digital
  Hierarchy (SDH), and Plesiochronous Digital Hierarchy (PDH) signals.
  This document updates the procedures for supporting virtual
  concatenation in RFC4606.

Working Group Summary

  This document received much attention and discussion in its early
  revisions.

  The document has been stable for quite some time, mainly needing
  revisions as part of the publication process.

Document Quality

  There have been no public statements related to implementations.

Personnel

  Deborah Brungard (db3546@att.com) is the Document Shepherd.
  Adrian Farrel (adrian.farrel@huawei.com) is the Responsible AD

RFC Editor Note

Abstract
OLD
   This document describes requirements for, and use of, the
   Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS) control plane in
   support of the Virtual Concatenation (VCAT) layer 1 inverse
   multiplexing data plane mechanism and its companion Link Capacity
   Adjustment Scheme (LCAS) which can be used for hitless dynamic
   resizing of the inverse multiplex group.
NEW
   This document describes requirements for, and use of, the
   Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS) control plane in
   support of the Virtual Concatenation (VCAT) layer 1 inverse
   multiplexing data plane mechanism and its companion Link Capacity
   Adjustment Scheme (LCAS).  LCAS can be used for hitless dynamic
   resizing of the inverse multiplex group.
END

---

Section 2.3 Final bullet paragraph. Replace dash with comma.
OLD
     - Identification of the VCG and its associated members. This
       provides information that allows the endpoints to differentiate
       multiple VCGs and to tell what members - label switched paths
       (LSPs)- to associate with a particular VCG.
NEW
     - Identification of the VCG and its associated members. This
       provides information that allows the endpoints to differentiate
       multiple VCGs and to tell what member, label switched paths
       (LSPs), to associate with a particular VCG.
END

---

Section 3
Replace all double dash (--) with single dash (-)

---

Section 5. Caption to the figure should read

   Figure 1 - Conceptual containment relationship between VCG, VCAT
          calls, control plane LSPs, and data plane connections.

---

Authors' Addresses

OLD
Email: diego.caviglia@(marconi.com, ericsson.com)
NEW
Email: diego.caviglia@ericsson.com
END

From gregb@grotto-networking.com  Mon Jun 13 11:19:56 2011
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Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 11:19:50 -0700
From: Greg Bernstein <gregb@grotto-networking.com>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version Notification for draft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt
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Hi Pierre and draft authors, can you provide:
(1) Diagrams of the example switches particularly with respect to the 
structure of the resource pools/blocks.
(2) Explanation of why so many different types (not number) of 
regenerators in an optical node. You site 5 different types for a small 
node and 10 for a large node. Can you point to a product family?  I 
would think 0-1 types of regenerators for a small node and at maybe 2 
for a large node or nodes that deal with long haul and metro types 
modulations.
(3) Can you provide the example encodings such as done in the appendix 
of the encoding document so we can understand where the expansion is 
taking place.

It seems that the size expansions is directly related to the number of 
regenerator types, but hard to tell from this document.  Are there any 
other WSON interested parties that have a need for so many regenerator 
types?

Cheers

Greg B.

On 6/10/2011 7:19 AM, PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) wrote:
> Hi Ccampers,
>
> During Prague meeting I was asked to provide a draft detailing the solution we were presenting then concerning OSPF-TE extensions for Wavelength Switched Optical Networks (see point 10 of ccamp minutes).
> Julien, Giovanni, Cyril and I have tackled this work of providing a complete description of the solution with commonalities and deltas from the existing solution held in the following drafts:
>    - draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-11
>    - draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-04
>    - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-00
>    - draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-11
>    - draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-04
>
> Feedback from the working group is welcome.
>
> To trigger this feedback, this draft holds inside section 5 a numerical study on the amount of static and dynamic information to be flooded.
> This study was conducted on various typical WSON nodes and compares the size of the LSAs between the two solutions.
>
> Regards,
>
> - Pierre
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp


-- 
===================================================
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237



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  <head>
    <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
      http-equiv="Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
    Hi Pierre and draft authors, can you provide:<br>
    (1) Diagrams of the example switches particularly with respect to
    the structure of the resource pools/blocks.<br>
    (2) Explanation of why so many different types (not number) of
    regenerators in an optical node. You site 5 different types for a
    small node and 10 for a large node. Can you point to a product
    family?&nbsp; I would think 0-1 types of regenerators for a small node
    and at maybe 2 for a large node or nodes that deal with long haul
    and metro types modulations.&nbsp; <br>
    (3) Can you provide the example encodings such as done in the
    appendix of the encoding document so we can understand where the
    expansion is taking place.<br>
    <br>
    It seems that the size expansions is directly related to the number
    of regenerator types, but hard to tell from this document.&nbsp; Are
    there any other WSON interested parties that have a need for so many
    regenerator types?<br>
    <br>
    Cheers<br>
    <br>
    Greg B.<br>
    <br>
    On 6/10/2011 7:19 AM, PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) wrote:
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CCBFBB7025DF984494DEC3285C058152129673243E@FRMRSSXCHMBSA1.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Hi Ccampers,

During Prague meeting I was asked to provide a draft detailing the solution we were presenting then concerning OSPF-TE extensions for Wavelength Switched Optical Networks (see point 10 of ccamp minutes).
Julien, Giovanni, Cyril and I have tackled this work of providing a complete description of the solution with commonalities and deltas from the existing solution held in the following drafts:
  - draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-11
  - draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-04
  - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-00
  - draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-11
  - draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-04

Feedback from the working group is welcome.

To trigger this feedback, this draft holds inside section 5 a numerical study on the amount of static and dynamic information to be flooded.
This study was conducted on various typical WSON nodes and compares the size of the LSAs between the two solutions.

Regards,

- Pierre
</pre>
      <pre wrap="">
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
_______________________________________________
CCAMP mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org">CCAMP@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
===================================================
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237

</pre>
  </body>
</html>

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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] WG last call on draft-ietf-ccamp-attribute-bnf-01.txt-completed
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This WG Last Call has ended.

I will prepare the publication request.

Thanks,
Deborah

-----Original Message-----
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Of BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A (ATTSI)
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 2:10 PM
To: CCAMP
Subject: [CCAMP] WG last call on draft-ietf-ccamp-attribute-bnf-01.txt

This mail begins a WG last call on:
http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-ccamp-attribute-bnf-01.txt

This working group last call ends on June 10th. Please send comments to
the CCAMP mailing list.

Deborah (and Lou)

_______________________________________________
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From gregb@grotto-networking.com  Tue Jun 14 08:21:42 2011
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Subject: [CCAMP] Review of draft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt and Next Steps proposal...
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Hi CCAMPers interested in WSON, the recently published 
"draft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt" is extremely long (41 pages) 
so I'm not sure who will be reading it in its entirety other than 
myself. Below I'll try to summarize the document from my perspective and 
to aid the work group in trying to figure out where to go next.

An important thing to note is that there are many essentially equivalent 
ways of formulating the WSON information model, its encoding, and its 
packing into OSPF LSAs. The current CCAMP WG drafts 
[draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-11 
<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info/>, 
draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-05 
<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode/>, 
draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-11 
<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode/>, 
draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-04 
<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf/>, 
draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-00 
<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te/> 
] present one formulation. At the Prague IETF Pierre indicated that 
additional encoding efficiencies might be possible. The straight forward 
way to illustrate this would be to show an example optical node, show 
the most efficient encoding using the current WG drafts, then show via a 
minimal set of changes to the current WG drafts how much space savings 
could be realized. Unfortunately the document 
"draft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt" does not do this.

(1) "draft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt" starts with over 31 pages 
of text predominantly taken from the five current CCAMP working group 
drafts mentioned above. Most of these are very small conceptual changes, 
i.e., moving some information from some containers (TLVs, sub-TLVs, 
etc...) to others and hence not resulting any significant encoding space 
savings.
(2) In the first 31 pages there is one new indirection mechanism added 
for identifiers for resource pools which could be helpful in what seems 
an unusual optical node.
(3) Section 5 is a "Solution(s) Evaluation". It begins with a "RBNFs 
Comparison", then proceeds with "5.2 Depiction of the considered cases 
for evaluation". This is a key section but does not include any diagrams 
of the optical nodes so readers can determine whether these are 
important examples of practical optical nodes or example constructions 
that would tend to not be used in practice.
(4)  Section 5.3 "Comparing evaluation of the solutions" should be the 
longest section of the document but instead is only a page long. It 
cites numbers for the "cases for evaluation", but provides no basis for 
the numbers or an analysis of why for these cases the encoding presented 
is better than that in the current WG drafts.

*My recommendations based on this draft:*
Hidden deep in the text of section "5.2 Depiction of the considered 
cases for evaluation"  we see the text
  o  Number of resourceBlock.  There is two numbers to be considered
       here : the number of resourceBlock for a given resource pool (this
       document) and total number of resourceBlock
       ([I-D.ietf-ccamp-rwa-info]).  In this document the number of
       resource block within a resource pool is, worst case, the number
       of possible regenerator types, whereas in
**      [I-D.ietf-ccamp-rwa-info] the number of resource block depends on
**      the number of OEO types and on the connectivity.

**Here is where the encoding differences seem to take place. For the 
constructed examples (that are not explicitly given) it seems that 
they've randomly assigned (or worse than random) different regenerator 
types to blocks to obtain none of the coding advantages of the current 
WG draft scheme.

Hence the only encoding problem that is pointed out in this draft can be 
solved with their proposed indirection mechanism (resource pool/block 
ID) but none of the other changes proposed in this document to Info 
model, encoding, or OSPF drafts are necessary. If the authors can 
rewrite this draft in reverse order (problem, analysis, solution) where 
the solution involves minimal changes to the existing CCAMP WSON related 
WG drafts then the WG should have a sound basis to make a decision and 
it should be easy for the editors of the existing CCAMP WSON drafts to 
incorporate any changes if desired by the WG.

Cheers
Greg B.

-- 
===================================================
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237



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    Hi CCAMPers interested in WSON, the recently published
    "draft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt" is extremely long (41
    pages) so I'm not sure who will be reading it in its entirety other
    than myself. Below I'll try to summarize the document from my
    perspective and to aid the work group in trying to figure out where
    to go next.&nbsp; <br>
    <br>
    An important thing to note is that there are many essentially
    equivalent ways of formulating the WSON information model, its
    encoding, and its packing into OSPF LSAs. The current CCAMP WG
    drafts [<a
      href="http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info/">draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-11</a>,
    <a
href="http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode/">draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-05</a>,
    <a
      href="http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode/">draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-11</a>,
    <a
href="http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf/">draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-04</a>,
    <a
href="http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te/">draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-00</a>
    ] present one formulation. At the Prague IETF Pierre indicated that
    additional encoding efficiencies might be possible. The straight
    forward way to illustrate this would be to show an example optical
    node, show the most efficient encoding using the current WG drafts,
    then show via a minimal set of changes to the current WG drafts how
    much space savings could be realized. Unfortunately the document
    "draft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt" does not do this.<br>
    <br>
    (1) "draft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt" starts with over 31
    pages of text predominantly taken from the five current CCAMP
    working group drafts mentioned above. Most of these are very small
    conceptual changes, i.e., moving some information from some
    containers (TLVs, sub-TLVs, etc...) to others and hence not
    resulting any significant encoding space savings.&nbsp; <br>
    (2) In the first 31 pages there is one new indirection mechanism
    added for identifiers for resource pools which could be helpful in
    what seems an unusual optical node. <br>
    (3) Section 5 is a "Solution(s) Evaluation". It begins with a "RBNFs
    Comparison", then proceeds with "5.2 Depiction of the considered
    cases for evaluation". This is a key section but does not include
    any diagrams of the optical nodes so readers can determine whether
    these are important examples of practical optical nodes or example
    constructions that would tend to not be used in practice.<br>
    (4)&nbsp; Section 5.3 "Comparing evaluation of the solutions" should be
    the longest section of the document but instead is only a page long.
    It cites numbers for the "cases for evaluation", but provides no
    basis for the numbers or an analysis of why for these cases the
    encoding presented is better than that in the current WG drafts.<br>
    <br>
    <b>My recommendations based on this draft:</b><br>
    Hidden deep in the text of section "5.2 Depiction of the considered
    cases for evaluation"&nbsp; we see the text<br>
    &nbsp;o&nbsp; Number of resourceBlock.&nbsp; There is two numbers to be considered<br>
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; here : the number of resourceBlock for a given resource pool
    (this<br>
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; document) and total number of resourceBlock<br>
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ([I-D.ietf-ccamp-rwa-info]).&nbsp; In this document the number of<br>
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; resource block within a resource pool is, worst case, the
    number<br>
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; of possible regenerator types, whereas in<br>
    ** &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [I-D.ietf-ccamp-rwa-info] the number of resource block
    depends on<br>
    ** &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the number of OEO types and on the connectivity.<br>
    <br>
    **Here is where the encoding differences seem to take place. For the
    constructed examples (that are not explicitly given) it seems that
    they've randomly assigned (or worse than random) different
    regenerator types to blocks to obtain none of the coding advantages
    of the current WG draft scheme. <br>
    <br>
    Hence the only encoding problem that is pointed out in this draft
    can be solved with their proposed indirection mechanism (resource
    pool/block ID) but none of the other changes proposed in this
    document to Info model, encoding, or OSPF drafts are necessary. If
    the authors can rewrite this draft in reverse order (problem,
    analysis, solution) where the solution involves minimal changes to
    the existing CCAMP WSON related WG drafts then the WG should have a
    sound basis to make a decision and it should be easy for the editors
    of the existing CCAMP WSON drafts to incorporate any changes if
    desired by the WG.<br>
    <br>
    Cheers<br>
    Greg B.<br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
===================================================
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237

</pre>
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=20

Hi Greg, CCAMPers,=20

=20

Regarding point (2), using one regen type per OTUk (k in [[1..4]]), and
2 type of laser module per reach makes already 8 type of oeo properties.
Adding slightly different hw types (i.e old board with old modulation
and a more recent with DP-QPSK) makes an easy 10 types for a big node.

=20

Without going into product families this sounded reasonable (for
instance a typical product would indicate supports for 10 and 40g with
different modulation, so lets say 2 sub-board type, which makes 6 regen
type); The introduction of OTU4 and later OTU5 will increase the types
of regenerator supported.

=20

The size expansion is indeed related to the number of regenerator type,
resource blocks contain connectivity, oeo-feature and how the blocks are
grouped.

=20

The other point would indeed clarify the document, the setup of resource
pools/blocks is shown in Figure 1, a resource pool aggregating  the
connectivity for several resource blocks.

Best regards.

=20

=20

=20

From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
Of ext Greg Bernstein
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 8:20 PM
To: ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version Notification
fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt

=20

Hi Pierre and draft authors, can you provide:
(1) Diagrams of the example switches particularly with respect to the
structure of the resource pools/blocks.
(2) Explanation of why so many different types (not number) of
regenerators in an optical node. You site 5 different types for a small
node and 10 for a large node. Can you point to a product family?  I
would think 0-1 types of regenerators for a small node and at maybe 2
for a large node or nodes that deal with long haul and metro types
modulations. =20
(3) Can you provide the example encodings such as done in the appendix
of the encoding document so we can understand where the expansion is
taking place.

It seems that the size expansions is directly related to the number of
regenerator types, but hard to tell from this document.  Are there any
other WSON interested parties that have a need for so many regenerator
types?

Cheers

Greg B.

On 6/10/2011 7:19 AM, PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) wrote:=20

Hi Ccampers,
=20
During Prague meeting I was asked to provide a draft detailing the
solution we were presenting then concerning OSPF-TE extensions for
Wavelength Switched Optical Networks (see point 10 of ccamp minutes).
Julien, Giovanni, Cyril and I have tackled this work of providing a
complete description of the solution with commonalities and deltas from
the existing solution held in the following drafts:
  - draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-11
  - draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-04
  - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-00
  - draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-11
  - draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-04
=20
Feedback from the working group is welcome.
=20
To trigger this feedback, this draft holds inside section 5 a numerical
study on the amount of static and dynamic information to be flooded.
This study was conducted on various typical WSON nodes and compares the
size of the LSAs between the two solutions.
=20
Regards,
=20
- Pierre
=20
=20
_______________________________________________
CCAMP mailing list
CCAMP@ietf.org
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--=20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237
=20

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class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Hi Greg, CCAMPers, <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Regarding point (2), using one regen type per OTUk (k in [[1..4]]), =
and 2 type of laser module per reach makes already 8 type of oeo =
properties. Adding slightly different hw types (i.e old board with old =
modulation and a more recent with DP-QPSK) makes an easy 10 types for a =
big node.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Without going into product families this sounded reasonable (for =
instance a typical product would indicate supports for 10 and 40g with =
different modulation, so lets say 2 sub-board type, which makes 6 regen =
type); The introduction of OTU4 and later OTU5 will increase the types =
of regenerator supported.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>The size expansion is indeed related to the number of regenerator =
type, resource blocks contain connectivity, oeo-feature and how the =
blocks are grouped.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>The other point would indeed clarify the document, the setup of =
resource pools/blocks is shown in Figure 1, a resource pool aggregating =
&nbsp;the connectivity for several resource =
blocks.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Best regards.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
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D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
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style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'> ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>ext Greg Bernstein<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 13, 2011 =
8:20 PM<br><b>To:</b> ccamp@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCAMP] TR: =
New Version Notification =
fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hi =
Pierre and draft authors, can you provide:<br>(1) Diagrams of the =
example switches particularly with respect to the structure of the =
resource pools/blocks.<br>(2) Explanation of why so many different types =
(not number) of regenerators in an optical node. You site 5 different =
types for a small node and 10 for a large node. Can you point to a =
product family?&nbsp; I would think 0-1 types of regenerators for a =
small node and at maybe 2 for a large node or nodes that deal with long =
haul and metro types modulations.&nbsp; <br>(3) Can you provide the =
example encodings such as done in the appendix of the encoding document =
so we can understand where the expansion is taking place.<br><br>It =
seems that the size expansions is directly related to the number of =
regenerator types, but hard to tell from this document.&nbsp; Are there =
any other WSON interested parties that have a need for so many =
regenerator types?<br><br>Cheers<br><br>Greg B.<br><br>On 6/10/2011 7:19 =
AM, PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) wrote: <o:p></o:p></p><pre>Hi =
Ccampers,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>During Prague =
meeting I was asked to provide a draft detailing the solution we were =
presenting then concerning OSPF-TE extensions for Wavelength Switched =
Optical Networks (see point 10 of ccamp =
minutes).<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Julien, Giovanni, Cyril and I have =
tackled this work of providing a complete description of the solution =
with commonalities and deltas from the existing solution held in the =
following drafts:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp; - =
draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-11<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp; - =
draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-04<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;=
 - =
draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-00<o:p></o:p></pre><pr=
e>&nbsp; - =
draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-11<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp; - =
draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-04<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>Feedback from the working group is =
welcome.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>To trigger =
this feedback, this draft holds inside section 5 a numerical study on =
the amount of static and dynamic information to be =
flooded.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>This study was conducted on various =
typical WSON nodes and compares the size of the LSAs between the two =
solutions.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>Regards,<o:p>=
</o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>- =
Pierre<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</pre><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pr=
e><pre>CCAMP mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a =
href=3D"mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org">CCAMP@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a=
 =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/ccamp</a><o:p></o:p></pre><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>-- =
<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Dr Greg Bernstein, =
Grotto Networking (510) =
573-2237<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre></div></div></body><=
/html>
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Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 09:25:08 -0700
From: Greg Bernstein <gregb@grotto-networking.com>
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Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version Notification fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt
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Hi Cyril, yes there are a lot of optical modulation types out there.  So 
this sounds plausible.  However the essence of the solution to the issue 
of a large number of regenerator types in 
draft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt seems to only require a slight 
change to the WSON specific encoding draft and not changes to all five 
current working group documents.  Hence, if the authors can rewrite the 
encoding solution in a form that makes minimal changes to the existing 
WSON specific encoding drafts and no unnecessary changes to other drafts 
then I would be happy to incorporate the resulting encoding enhancement.

Cheers

Greg B.


On 6/15/2011 12:35 AM, Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>
> Hi Greg, CCAMPers,
>
> Regarding point (2), using one regen type per OTUk (k in [[1..4]]), 
> and 2 type of laser module per reach makes already 8 type of oeo 
> properties. Adding slightly different hw types (i.e old board with old 
> modulation and a more recent with DP-QPSK) makes an easy 10 types for 
> a big node.
>
> Without going into product families this sounded reasonable (for 
> instance a typical product would indicate supports for 10 and 40g with 
> different modulation, so lets say 2 sub-board type, which makes 6 
> regen type); The introduction of OTU4 and later OTU5 will increase the 
> types of regenerator supported.
>
> The size expansion is indeed related to the number of regenerator 
> type, resource blocks contain connectivity, oeo-feature and how the 
> blocks are grouped.
>
> The other point would indeed clarify the document, the setup of 
> resource pools/blocks is shown in Figure 1, a resource pool 
> aggregating  the connectivity for several resource blocks.
>
> Best regards.
>
> *From:*ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] *On 
> Behalf Of *ext Greg Bernstein
> *Sent:* Monday, June 13, 2011 8:20 PM
> *To:* ccamp@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version Notification 
> fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt
>
> Hi Pierre and draft authors, can you provide:
> (1) Diagrams of the example switches particularly with respect to the 
> structure of the resource pools/blocks.
> (2) Explanation of why so many different types (not number) of 
> regenerators in an optical node. You site 5 different types for a 
> small node and 10 for a large node. Can you point to a product 
> family?  I would think 0-1 types of regenerators for a small node and 
> at maybe 2 for a large node or nodes that deal with long haul and 
> metro types modulations.
> (3) Can you provide the example encodings such as done in the appendix 
> of the encoding document so we can understand where the expansion is 
> taking place.
>
> It seems that the size expansions is directly related to the number of 
> regenerator types, but hard to tell from this document.  Are there any 
> other WSON interested parties that have a need for so many regenerator 
> types?
>
> Cheers
>
> Greg B.
>
> On 6/10/2011 7:19 AM, PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) wrote:
>
> Hi Ccampers,
>   
> During Prague meeting I was asked to provide a draft detailing the solution we were presenting then concerning OSPF-TE extensions for Wavelength Switched Optical Networks (see point 10 of ccamp minutes).
> Julien, Giovanni, Cyril and I have tackled this work of providing a complete description of the solution with commonalities and deltas from the existing solution held in the following drafts:
>    - draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-11
>    - draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-04
>    - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-00
>    - draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-11
>    - draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-04
>   
> Feedback from the working group is welcome.
>   
> To trigger this feedback, this draft holds inside section 5 a numerical study on the amount of static and dynamic information to be flooded.
> This study was conducted on various typical WSON nodes and compares the size of the LSAs between the two solutions.
>   
> Regards,
>   
> - Pierre
>   
>   
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org  <mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> ===================================================
> Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237
>   


-- 
===================================================
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237



--------------040604010306070808030105
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    Hi Cyril, yes there are a lot of optical modulation types out
    there.&nbsp; So this sounds plausible.&nbsp; However the essence of the
    solution to the issue of a large number of regenerator types in
    draft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt seems to only require a
    slight change to the WSON specific encoding draft and not changes to
    all five current working group documents.&nbsp; Hence, if the authors can
    rewrite the encoding solution in a form that makes minimal changes
    to the existing WSON specific encoding drafts and no unnecessary
    changes to other drafts then I would be happy to incorporate the
    resulting encoding enhancement.<br>
    <br>
    Cheers<br>
    <br>
    Greg B.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    On 6/15/2011 12:35 AM, Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
    <blockquote
cite="mid:D5EABC6FDAFDAA47BC803114C68AABF2027CAC27@DEMUEXC012.nsn-intra.net"
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
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            73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);">Hi Greg, CCAMPers, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);">Regarding point (2), using one regen type per
            OTUk (k in [[1..4]]), and 2 type of laser module per reach
            makes already 8 type of oeo properties. Adding slightly
            different hw types (i.e old board with old modulation and a
            more recent with DP-QPSK) makes an easy 10 types for a big
            node.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);">Without going into product families this sounded
            reasonable (for instance a typical product would indicate
            supports for 10 and 40g with different modulation, so lets
            say 2 sub-board type, which makes 6 regen type); The
            introduction of OTU4 and later OTU5 will increase the types
            of regenerator supported.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);">The size expansion is indeed related to the
            number of regenerator type, resource blocks contain
            connectivity, oeo-feature and how the blocks are grouped.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);">The other point would indeed clarify the
            document, the setup of resource pools/blocks is shown in
            Figure 1, a resource pool aggregating &nbsp;the connectivity for
            several resource blocks.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);">Best regards.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
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            73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div style="border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt;
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          -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color
          blue; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt;">
          <div>
            <div style="border-right: medium none; border-width: 1pt
              medium medium; border-style: solid none none;
              border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color
              -moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;
                    font-family:
                    &quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:
                    windowtext;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:
                  10pt; font-family:
                  &quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:
                  windowtext;"> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a>
                  [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>ext
                  Greg Bernstein<br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 13, 2011 8:20 PM<br>
                  <b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ccamp@ietf.org">ccamp@ietf.org</a><br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version
                  Notification
                  fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Hi Pierre and draft authors, can you
            provide:<br>
            (1) Diagrams of the example switches particularly with
            respect to the structure of the resource pools/blocks.<br>
            (2) Explanation of why so many different types (not number)
            of regenerators in an optical node. You site 5 different
            types for a small node and 10 for a large node. Can you
            point to a product family?&nbsp; I would think 0-1 types of
            regenerators for a small node and at maybe 2 for a large
            node or nodes that deal with long haul and metro types
            modulations.&nbsp; <br>
            (3) Can you provide the example encodings such as done in
            the appendix of the encoding document so we can understand
            where the expansion is taking place.<br>
            <br>
            It seems that the size expansions is directly related to the
            number of regenerator types, but hard to tell from this
            document.&nbsp; Are there any other WSON interested parties that
            have a need for so many regenerator types?<br>
            <br>
            Cheers<br>
            <br>
            Greg B.<br>
            <br>
            On 6/10/2011 7:19 AM, PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
          <pre>Hi Ccampers,<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>During Prague meeting I was asked to provide a draft detailing the solution we were presenting then concerning OSPF-TE extensions for Wavelength Switched Optical Networks (see point 10 of ccamp minutes).<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Julien, Giovanni, Cyril and I have tackled this work of providing a complete description of the solution with commonalities and deltas from the existing solution held in the following drafts:<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp; - draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-11<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp; - draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-04<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp; - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-00<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp; - draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-11<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp; - draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-04<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>Feedback from the working group is welcome.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>To trigger this feedback, this draft holds inside section 5 a numerical study on the amount of static and dynamic information to be flooded.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>This study was conducted on various typical WSON nodes and compares the size of the LSAs between the two solutions.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>Regards,<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>- Pierre<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>CCAMP mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org">CCAMP@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <o:p></o:p></p>
          <pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>===================================================<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
===================================================
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237

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Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version Notification fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt
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Hi Cyril, can you furnish diagrams of the optical nodes, and the 
encodings chosen when using the current WG documents. From the Peloso 
draft there is insufficient information to see where the encoding 
numbers quoted came from.  The current 
draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-11.txt makes it relatively efficient to 
deal with lots of different regenerator types. In section 4.1 "Resource 
Block Information Sub-TLV" is defined as:

0123
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| RB Set Field |
::
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
|I|E| Reserved|
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
|Input Modulation Type List Sub-Sub-TLV(opt)|
::
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
|Input FEC Type List Sub-Sub-TLV(opt)|
::
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
|Input Client Signal Type Sub-Sub-TLV(opt)|
::
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
|        More resource description |
::

The RB set field in this sub-TLV allows you to specify once all the 
properties of a class of regenerators and apply it to a set of resource 
blocks. Hence this scales as the number of regenerator types not as the 
number of resource blocks.  Hence the existing WSON encoding should 
solve your problem of many types of regenerators within an optical node.

Without further information I can't see how the Peloso draft gets the 
numbers it quotes for the size of the information to be distributed. In 
addition it doesn't appear that the Peloso draft uses the OSPF group's 
recommended practice of multiple LSA instances. But once again 
insufficient information is given to justify the numbers. If there is a 
problem with encoding for a particular switch case I'm sure we can 
quickly find a solution that has a minimal impact on the existing WSON 
related WG drafts, but first we really need to understand the optical 
node and the cause (if any) the the encoding expansion.

Greg B.


On 6/15/2011 12:35 AM, Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>
> Hi Greg, CCAMPers,
>
> Regarding point (2), using one regen type per OTUk (k in [[1..4]]), 
> and 2 type of laser module per reach makes already 8 type of oeo 
> properties. Adding slightly different hw types (i.e old board with old 
> modulation and a more recent with DP-QPSK) makes an easy 10 types for 
> a big node.
>
> Without going into product families this sounded reasonable (for 
> instance a typical product would indicate supports for 10 and 40g with 
> different modulation, so lets say 2 sub-board type, which makes 6 
> regen type); The introduction of OTU4 and later OTU5 will increase the 
> types of regenerator supported.
>
> The size expansion is indeed related to the number of regenerator 
> type, resource blocks contain connectivity, oeo-feature and how the 
> blocks are grouped.
>
> The other point would indeed clarify the document, the setup of 
> resource pools/blocks is shown in Figure 1, a resource pool 
> aggregating  the connectivity for several resource blocks.
>
> Best regards.
>
> *From:*ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] *On 
> Behalf Of *ext Greg Bernstein
> *Sent:* Monday, June 13, 2011 8:20 PM
> *To:* ccamp@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version Notification 
> fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt
>
> Hi Pierre and draft authors, can you provide:
> (1) Diagrams of the example switches particularly with respect to the 
> structure of the resource pools/blocks.
> (2) Explanation of why so many different types (not number) of 
> regenerators in an optical node. You site 5 different types for a 
> small node and 10 for a large node. Can you point to a product 
> family?  I would think 0-1 types of regenerators for a small node and 
> at maybe 2 for a large node or nodes that deal with long haul and 
> metro types modulations.
> (3) Can you provide the example encodings such as done in the appendix 
> of the encoding document so we can understand where the expansion is 
> taking place.
>
> It seems that the size expansions is directly related to the number of 
> regenerator types, but hard to tell from this document.  Are there any 
> other WSON interested parties that have a need for so many regenerator 
> types?
>
> Cheers
>
> Greg B.
>
--snip --

-- 
===================================================
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237



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    Hi Cyril, can you furnish diagrams of the optical nodes, and the
    encodings chosen when using the current WG documents. From the
    Peloso draft there is insufficient information to see where the
    encoding numbers quoted came from.&nbsp; The current
    draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-11.txt makes it relatively
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    <tt><span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>0<span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>1<span
        style="">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>2<span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
      </span>3</tt>
    <br>
    <tt><span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
      9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1</tt>
    <br>
    <tt><span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp;
      </span>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<span
        style=""></span></tt>
    <br>
    <tt><span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>| <span style=""><span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span
          style=""> </span><span style="">&nbsp;</span>RB Set</span> Field <span
        style=""><span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp;</span></span><span
        style="">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span style=""><span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span></span><span
        style="">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span style=""><span style="">&nbsp; </span></span>|</tt>
    <br>
    <tt><span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>:<span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
        &nbsp; &nbsp; </span>:</tt>
    <br>
    <tt><span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp;
      </span>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</tt>
    <br>
    <tt><span style="">&nbsp; </span><span style="">&nbsp;</span>|I|E| <span
        style="">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>Reserved<span
        style="">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>
      |</tt>
    <br>
    <tt><span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp;
      </span>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<span
        style=""></span></tt>
    <br>
    <tt><span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>|<span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span
        style="">Input Modulation Type List Sub-Sub-TLV</span><span
        style="">&nbsp; </span>(opt)<span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
      </span><span style="">|</span></tt>
    <br>
    <tt><span style=""><span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>:<span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
        </span>:</span></tt>
    <br>
    <tt><span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp;
      </span>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</tt>
    <br>
    <tt><span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>|<span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span
        style="">Input FEC Type List Sub-Sub-TLV</span><span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
      </span>(opt)<span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span style="">|</span></tt>
    <br>
    <tt><span style=""><span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>:<span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
          &nbsp; &nbsp; </span>:</span></tt>
    <br>
    <tt><span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp;
      </span>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</tt>
    <br>
    <tt><span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>|<span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span
        style="">Input Client Signal Type Sub-Sub-TLV</span><span
        style="">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>(opt)<span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span
        style="">|</span></tt>
    <br>
    <tt><span style=""><span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>:<span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
        </span><span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
        </span>:</span></tt>
    <br>
    <tt><span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp;
      </span>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</tt>
    <br>
    <tt><span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>|<span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; More resource
        description&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span style=""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span
        style="">|</span></tt>
    <br>
    <tt><span style=""><span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>:<span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
        </span>:</span></tt><br>
    <br>
    The RB set field in this sub-TLV allows you to specify once all the
    properties of a class of regenerators and apply it to a set of
    resource blocks. Hence this scales as the number of regenerator
    types not as the number of resource blocks.&nbsp; Hence the existing WSON
    encoding should solve your problem of many types of regenerators
    within an optical node.<br>
    <br>
    Without further information I can't see how the Peloso draft gets
    the numbers it quotes for the size of the information to be
    distributed. In addition it doesn't appear that the Peloso draft
    uses the OSPF group's recommended practice of multiple LSA
    instances. But once again insufficient information is given to
    justify the numbers. If there is a problem with encoding for a
    particular switch case I'm sure we can quickly find a solution that
    has a minimal impact on the existing WSON related WG drafts, but
    first we really need to understand the optical node and the cause
    (if any) the the encoding expansion.<br>
    <br>
    Greg B.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    On 6/15/2011 12:35 AM, Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
    <blockquote
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);">Hi Greg, CCAMPers, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);">Regarding point (2), using one regen type per
            OTUk (k in [[1..4]]), and 2 type of laser module per reach
            makes already 8 type of oeo properties. Adding slightly
            different hw types (i.e old board with old modulation and a
            more recent with DP-QPSK) makes an easy 10 types for a big
            node.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);">Without going into product families this sounded
            reasonable (for instance a typical product would indicate
            supports for 10 and 40g with different modulation, so lets
            say 2 sub-board type, which makes 6 regen type); The
            introduction of OTU4 and later OTU5 will increase the types
            of regenerator supported.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);">The size expansion is indeed related to the
            number of regenerator type, resource blocks contain
            connectivity, oeo-feature and how the blocks are grouped.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);">The other point would indeed clarify the
            document, the setup of resource pools/blocks is shown in
            Figure 1, a resource pool aggregating &nbsp;the connectivity for
            several resource blocks.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);">Best regards.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div style="border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt;
          border-style: none none none solid; border-color:
          -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color
          blue; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt;">
          <div>
            <div style="border-right: medium none; border-width: 1pt
              medium medium; border-style: solid none none;
              border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color
              -moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;
                    font-family:
                    &quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:
                    windowtext;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:
                  10pt; font-family:
                  &quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:
                  windowtext;"> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a>
                  [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>ext
                  Greg Bernstein<br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 13, 2011 8:20 PM<br>
                  <b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ccamp@ietf.org">ccamp@ietf.org</a><br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version
                  Notification
                  fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Hi Pierre and draft authors, can you
            provide:<br>
            (1) Diagrams of the example switches particularly with
            respect to the structure of the resource pools/blocks.<br>
            (2) Explanation of why so many different types (not number)
            of regenerators in an optical node. You site 5 different
            types for a small node and 10 for a large node. Can you
            point to a product family?&nbsp; I would think 0-1 types of
            regenerators for a small node and at maybe 2 for a large
            node or nodes that deal with long haul and metro types
            modulations.&nbsp; <br>
            (3) Can you provide the example encodings such as done in
            the appendix of the encoding document so we can understand
            where the expansion is taking place.<br>
            <br>
            It seems that the size expansions is directly related to the
            number of regenerator types, but hard to tell from this
            document.&nbsp; Are there any other WSON interested parties that
            have a need for so many regenerator types?<br>
            <br>
            Cheers<br>
            <br>
            Greg B.<br>
          </p>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    --snip -- <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
===================================================
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237

</pre>
  </body>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version Notification	fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt
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Hi Cyril,

I think your analysis below is very theoretical and a bit out of reality in WSON node configuration.

We are dealing with wavelength level so that OTUk level is transparent to WSON. In typical optical switch node configuration in WSON, we don't simply mix up all possible kinds of regenerators per each modulation type. It is true that we have many modulation types for each rate and the model should support all possibility. But this does not mean we have all "10 types" at the same time in a node design. As you know, regenerator is one of the most expensive WSON elements and having many types in a node is not economical and not realistic.

As far as my understanding of node design, we don't have such thing as you said in your email to support 10+ different types of regenerators in a node. In a typical commercially deployed WSON switching node, we have one rate (e.g., 10G or 40G, or possibly others) and one regenerator type for each rate. If we have multi-rate support, we may have two rates and thus two regenerators in a typical WSON switching node.

I would be interested in the node design diagram that supports 10+ different regenerators at the same time. I haven't seen such one myself yet.

Please also note that the WSON model has to support transparent node configuration, which we don't have "regen" element.

Best Regards,
Young



________________________________
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich)
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 2:36 AM
To: ext Greg Bernstein; ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version Notification fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt



Hi Greg, CCAMPers,

Regarding point (2), using one regen type per OTUk (k in [[1..4]]), and 2 type of laser module per reach makes already 8 type of oeo properties. Adding slightly different hw types (i.e old board with old modulation and a more recent with DP-QPSK) makes an easy 10 types for a big node.

Without going into product families this sounded reasonable (for instance a typical product would indicate supports for 10 and 40g with different modulation, so lets say 2 sub-board type, which makes 6 regen type); The introduction of OTU4 and later OTU5 will increase the types of regenerator supported.

The size expansion is indeed related to the number of regenerator type, resource blocks contain connectivity, oeo-feature and how the blocks are grouped.

The other point would indeed clarify the document, the setup of resource pools/blocks is shown in Figure 1, a resource pool aggregating  the connectivity for several resource blocks.

Best regards.



From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Greg Bernstein
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 8:20 PM
To: ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version Notification fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt

Hi Pierre and draft authors, can you provide:
(1) Diagrams of the example switches particularly with respect to the structure of the resource pools/blocks.
(2) Explanation of why so many different types (not number) of regenerators in an optical node. You site 5 different types for a small node and 10 for a large node. Can you point to a product family?  I would think 0-1 types of regenerators for a small node and at maybe 2 for a large node or nodes that deal with long haul and metro types modulations.
(3) Can you provide the example encodings such as done in the appendix of the encoding document so we can understand where the expansion is taking place.

It seems that the size expansions is directly related to the number of regenerator types, but hard to tell from this document.  Are there any other WSON interested parties that have a need for so many regenerator types?

Cheers

Greg B.

On 6/10/2011 7:19 AM, PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) wrote:

Hi Ccampers,



During Prague meeting I was asked to provide a draft detailing the solution we were presenting then concerning OSPF-TE extensions for Wavelength Switched Optical Networks (see point 10 of ccamp minutes).

Julien, Giovanni, Cyril and I have tackled this work of providing a complete description of the solution with commonalities and deltas from the existing solution held in the following drafts:

  - draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-11

  - draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-04

  - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-00

  - draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-11

  - draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-04



Feedback from the working group is welcome.



To trigger this feedback, this draft holds inside section 5 a numerical study on the amount of static and dynamic information to be flooded.

This study was conducted on various typical WSON nodes and compares the size of the LSAs between the two solutions.



Regards,



- Pierre





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===================================================

Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237



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<div class=3D"Section1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Hi Cyril,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">I think your analysis below is very th=
eoretical and a bit out of reality in WSON node configuration.
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">We are dealing with wavelength level s=
o that OTUk level is transparent to WSON. In typical optical switch node co=
nfiguration in WSON,
 we don&#8217;t simply mix up all possible kinds of regenerators per each m=
odulation type. It is true that we have many modulation types for each rate=
 and the model should support all possibility. But this does not mean we ha=
ve all &#8220;10 types&#8221; at the same time in
 a node design. As you know, regenerator is one of the most expensive WSON =
elements and having many types in a node is not economical and not realisti=
c.
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">As far as my understanding of node des=
ign, we don&#8217;t have such thing as you said in your email to support 10=
&#43; different types of regenerators
 in a node. In a typical commercially deployed WSON switching node, we have=
 one rate (e.g., 10G or 40G, or possibly others) and one regenerator type f=
or each rate. If we have multi-rate support, we may have two rates and thus=
 two regenerators in a typical WSON
 switching node. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">I would be interested in the node desi=
gn diagram that supports 10&#43; different regenerators at the same time. I=
 haven&#8217;t seen such one myself
 yet.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Please also note that the WSON model h=
as to support transparent node configuration, which we don&#8217;t have &#8=
220;regen&#8221; element.
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Best Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Young<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><font=
 size=3D"3" color=3D"black" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:12.0pt;color:windowtext">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center" tabindex=3D"-1">
</span></font></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Tahoma">=
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext;font-we=
ight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"=
Tahoma"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:windowtext">
 ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] <b><span style=3D"f=
ont-weight:bold">On Behalf Of
</span></b><st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">Margaria, Cyril</st1:PersonName> (NS=
N - DE/Munich)<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, June 15, 20=
11 2:36 AM<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> ext Greg Bernstein; <st1=
:PersonName w:st=3D"on">
ccamp@ietf.org</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [CCAMP] TR: New=
 Version Notification fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt</span></fo=
nt><font color=3D"black"><span style=3D"color:windowtext"><o:p></o:p></span=
></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" color=3D"black" face=3D"Times New R=
oman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" color=3D"black" face=3D"Times New R=
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!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1!1"=20
 style=3D'position:absolute;margin-left:0;margin-top:0;width:.05pt;height:.=
05pt;
 z-index:1;visibility:hidden'>
 <w:anchorlock/>
</v:shape><![endif]--></span></font><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=
=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F4=
97D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<br style=3D"mso-ignore:vglayout" clear=3D"ALL">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">Hi Greg,=
 CCAMPers,
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">Regardin=
g point (2), using one regen type per OTUk (k in [[1..4]]), and 2 type of l=
aser module per reach makes already 8 type
 of oeo properties. Adding slightly different hw types (i.e old board with =
old modulation and a more recent with DP-QPSK) makes an easy 10 types for a=
 big node.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">Without =
going into product families this sounded reasonable (for instance a typical=
 product would indicate supports for 10 and
 40g with different modulation, so lets say 2 sub-board type, which makes 6=
 regen type); The introduction of OTU4 and later OTU5 will increase the typ=
es of regenerator supported.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">The size=
 expansion is indeed related to the number of regenerator type, resource bl=
ocks contain connectivity, oeo-feature and
 how the blocks are grouped.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">The othe=
r point would indeed clarify the document, the setup of resource pools/bloc=
ks is shown in Figure 1, a resource pool aggregating
 &nbsp;the connectivity for several resource blocks.<o:p></o:p></span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">Best reg=
ards.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Tahoma">=
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext;font-we=
ight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"=
Tahoma"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:windowtext">
 ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] <b><span style=3D"f=
ont-weight:bold">On Behalf Of
</span></b>ext Greg Bernstein<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Monday, June 13, 2011 =
8:20 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"=
on">ccamp@ietf.org</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [CCAMP] TR: New=
 Version Notification fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt<o:p></o:p>=
</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" color=3D"black" face=3D"Times New R=
oman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" color=3D"black" face=3D"Times New R=
oman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Hi
<st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=3D"on">Pierre</st1:place></st1:City> =
and draft authors, can you provide:<br>
(1) Diagrams of the example switches particularly with respect to the struc=
ture of the resource pools/blocks.<br>
(2) Explanation of why so many different types (not number) of regenerators=
 in an optical node. You site 5 different types for a small node and 10 for=
 a large node. Can you point to a product family?&nbsp; I would think 0-1 t=
ypes of regenerators for a small node
 and at maybe 2 for a large node or nodes that deal with long haul and metr=
o types modulations.&nbsp;
<br>
(3) Can you provide the example encodings such as done in the appendix of t=
he encoding document so we can understand where the expansion is taking pla=
ce.<br>
<br>
It seems that the size expansions is directly related to the number of rege=
nerator types, but hard to tell from this document.&nbsp; Are there any oth=
er WSON interested parties that have a need for so many regenerator types?<=
br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
<br>
Greg B.<br>
<br>
On 6/10/2011 7:19 AM, <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">PELOSO, PIERRE</st1:Perso=
nName> (PIERRE) wrote:
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">Hi Ccampers,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">During <st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=3D"on">Prague=
</st1:place></st1:City> meeting I was asked to provide a draft detailing th=
e solution we were presenting then concerning OSPF-TE extensions for Wavele=
ngth Switched Optical Networks (see point 10 of ccamp minutes).<o:p></o:p><=
/span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">Julien, Giovanni, Cyril and I have tackled this work of pr=
oviding a complete description of the solution with commonalities and delta=
s from the existing solution held in the following drafts:<o:p></o:p></span=
></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">&nbsp; - draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-11<o:p></o:p></span></f=
ont></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">&nbsp; - draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-04<o:p=
></o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">&nbsp; - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-t=
e-00<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">&nbsp; - draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-11<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">&nbsp; - draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-0=
4<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">Feedback from the working group is welcome.<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">To trigger this feedback, this draft holds inside section =
5 a numerical study on the amount of static and dynamic information to be f=
looded.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">This study was conducted on various typical WSON nodes and=
 compares the size of the LSAs between the two solutions.<o:p></o:p></span>=
</font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">- <st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=3D"on">Pierre</st1=
:place></st1:City><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p>=
</span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">CCAMP mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt"><a href=3D"mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org">CCAMP@ietf.org</a><o:p><=
/o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font size=3D"3" colo=
r=3D"black" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">-- <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237<o:p></=
o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
</div>
</div>
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From: "PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE)" <pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: Greg Bernstein <gregb@grotto-networking.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 23:43:01 +0200
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Hi Greg, Ccamper's

First of all thanks for your comments, we'll make sure to integrate them pr=
operly in the revision to come of draft-peloso-.

We understand the impression given by the length of the draft, this comes a=
ctually from two facts: first the request by the WG and its chairs indicati=
ons to gather in a single document the changes from info down to OSPF-TE an=
d second that the 5 drafts with which we are drawing a parallel are lengthy=
 themselves once concatenated, which we cannot avoid ourselves.

To ease anyone's reading, we'll see how to arrange things in the next revis=
ion, though ccamper's shall not expect a big reduction of pages as the delt=
as between the solutions proposed are more important than you summarized to=
 the WG. This changes permitted to reach the gain in LSA size that we obtai=
ned especially concering the updates (read section 5). From a high-level vi=
ew, most of the modifications target the WSON part, it has significant impa=
ct on the info model, the encodings and the LSA layout (hence OSPF-TE).

We've noticed you were concerned by the way we conducted the size study. Fi=
rst, we have determined and described a given set of nodes we wanted to wor=
k on in a futur proof though reasonnable perspective. Second, we have used =
the drafts contents nammely recommendations of the info models and the enco=
dings in order to derive the encodings then summed them to determine the si=
ze of each LSA, for each of the solutions.We thought anyone familiar with t=
he drafts to proceed similarly, hence would have the capability to doublech=
eck. Reading your past emails, I have not noticed yet any doubt express the=
re relative to our misusing the previous draft that reveals itself accurate=
, then I keep trusting the accuracy of section 5.

To help the discussion move forward, we'll detail more the node models we'v=
e taken. In the meanwhile, feel free to explicit the one you want to consid=
er, if you wish to do a study.

Finally, you mention the optional feature of OSPF-TE named multi-LSA instan=
ce, that you seem to advocate as the solution to limit update sizes, and I =
am sorry to point that we have indeed provided such results inside section =
5 of draft-peloso- not at the advantage of multi-instance. Though, the lack=
 inside currrent drafts on how to proceed, forced us to best-guess. We woul=
d be glad (as I bet the WG would) to be told in which instance shall be whi=
ch TLVs.

Pierre
________________________________
De : ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de G=
reg Bernstein
Envoy=E9 : jeudi 16 juin 2011 20:02
=C0 : Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc : ccamp@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version Notification fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson=
-ospf-oeo-03.txt

Hi Cyril, can you furnish diagrams of the optical nodes, and the encodings =
chosen when using the current WG documents. From the Peloso draft there is =
insufficient information to see where the encoding numbers quoted came from=
.  The current draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-11.txt makes it relatively =
efficient to deal with lots of different regenerator types. In section 4.1 =
"Resource Block Information Sub-TLV" is defined as:

    0                   1                   2                   3
    0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |                    RB Set Field                               |
   :                                                               :
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |I|E|                        Reserved                           |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |           Input Modulation Type List Sub-Sub-TLV  (opt)       |
   :                                                               :
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |           Input FEC Type List Sub-Sub-TLV    (opt)            |
   :                                                               :
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |         Input Client Signal Type Sub-Sub-TLV      (opt)       |
   :                                                               :
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |        More resource description                              |
   :                                                               :

The RB set field in this sub-TLV allows you to specify once all the propert=
ies of a class of regenerators and apply it to a set of resource blocks. He=
nce this scales as the number of regenerator types not as the number of res=
ource blocks.  Hence the existing WSON encoding should solve your problem o=
f many types of regenerators within an optical node.

Without further information I can't see how the Peloso draft gets the numbe=
rs it quotes for the size of the information to be distributed. In addition=
 it doesn't appear that the Peloso draft uses the OSPF group's recommended =
practice of multiple LSA instances. But once again insufficient information=
 is given to justify the numbers. If there is a problem with encoding for a=
 particular switch case I'm sure we can quickly find a solution that has a =
minimal impact on the existing WSON related WG drafts, but first we really =
need to understand the optical node and the cause (if any) the the encoding=
 expansion.

Greg B.


On 6/15/2011 12:35 AM, Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
Hi Greg, CCAMPers,
Regarding point (2), using one regen type per OTUk (k in [[1..4]]), and 2 t=
ype of laser module per reach makes already 8 type of oeo properties. Addin=
g slightly different hw types (i.e old board with old modulation and a more=
 recent with DP-QPSK) makes an easy 10 types for a big node.
Without going into product families this sounded reasonable (for instance a=
 typical product would indicate supports for 10 and 40g with different modu=
lation, so lets say 2 sub-board type, which makes 6 regen type); The introd=
uction of OTU4 and later OTU5 will increase the types of regenerator suppor=
ted.
The size expansion is indeed related to the number of regenerator type, res=
ource blocks contain connectivity, oeo-feature and how the blocks are group=
ed.
The other point would indeed clarify the document, the setup of resource po=
ols/blocks is shown in Figure 1, a resource pool aggregating  the connectiv=
ity for several resource blocks.
Best regards.
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:ccamp-b=
ounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Greg Bernstein
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 8:20 PM
To: ccamp@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version Notification fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wso=
n-ospf-oeo-03.txt
Hi Pierre and draft authors, can you provide:
(1) Diagrams of the example switches particularly with respect to the struc=
ture of the resource pools/blocks.
(2) Explanation of why so many different types (not number) of regenerators=
 in an optical node. You site 5 different types for a small node and 10 for=
 a large node. Can you point to a product family?  I would think 0-1 types =
of regenerators for a small node and at maybe 2 for a large node or nodes t=
hat deal with long haul and metro types modulations.
(3) Can you provide the example encodings such as done in the appendix of t=
he encoding document so we can understand where the expansion is taking pla=
ce.

It seems that the size expansions is directly related to the number of rege=
nerator types, but hard to tell from this document.  Are there any other WS=
ON interested parties that have a need for so many regenerator types?

Cheers

Greg B.
--snip --

--
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237



--_000_CCBFBB7025DF984494DEC3285C05815212967A9F89FRMRSSXCHMBSA_
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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1"=
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<BODY text=3D#000000 bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SP=
AN=20
class=3D484551620-16062011>Hi Greg, Ccamper's</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SP=
AN=20
class=3D484551620-16062011></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SP=
AN=20
class=3D484551620-16062011>First of all thanks for your comments, we'll mak=
e sure=20
to integrate them properly in the revision to come of=20
draft-peloso-.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SP=
AN=20
class=3D484551620-16062011></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SP=
AN=20
class=3D484551620-16062011>We understand the impression given by the length=
 of the=20
draft, this comes actually from two facts: first the request by the&nbsp;WG=
 and=20
its chairs indications to gather in a single document the changes from info=
 down=20
to OSPF-TE and&nbsp;second that the 5 drafts&nbsp;with which we are drawing=
 a=20
parallel are lengthy themselves once concatenated, which we cannot avoid=20
ourselves.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SP=
AN=20
class=3D484551620-16062011></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SP=
AN=20
class=3D484551620-16062011>To ease anyone's reading, we'll see how to arran=
ge=20
things in the next revision, though ccamper's shall not expect a big reduct=
ion=20
of pages&nbsp;as&nbsp;the deltas between the solutions proposed are more=20
important than you summarized to the WG. This changes=20
permitted&nbsp;to&nbsp;reach&nbsp;the gain in LSA size that we obtained=20
especially concering the updates (read section 5). From a high-level view, =
most=20
of the modifications target the WSON part, it has significant impact on the=
 info=20
model, the encodings and the LSA layout (hence OSPF-TE).</SPAN></FONT></DIV=
>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SP=
AN=20
class=3D484551620-16062011></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SP=
AN=20
class=3D484551620-16062011>We've&nbsp;noticed you were concerned by the way=
 we=20
conducted the size study. First, we have&nbsp;determined and described a gi=
ven=20
set of nodes we wanted to work on in a futur proof though reasonnable=20
perspective. Second, we have used the drafts contents nammely recommendatio=
ns of=20
the info models and the encodings in order to derive the encodings then sum=
med=20
them&nbsp;to determine the size of each LSA, for each of the solutions.We=20
thought&nbsp;anyone familiar with the drafts to proceed similarly, hence wo=
uld=20
have the capability to doublecheck. Reading your past emails, I have not no=
ticed=20
yet any doubt express there&nbsp;relative to our&nbsp;misusing the previous=
=20
draft&nbsp;that reveals itself accurate, then I&nbsp;keep&nbsp;trusting the=
=20
accuracy of&nbsp;section 5.&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SP=
AN=20
class=3D484551620-16062011></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SP=
AN=20
class=3D484551620-16062011>To help the discussion move forward, we'll detai=
l more=20
the node models we've taken.&nbsp;In the meanwhile, feel free to explicit t=
he=20
one you want to consider, if you wish to do a study.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SP=
AN=20
class=3D484551620-16062011></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SP=
AN=20
class=3D484551620-16062011>Finally, you mention the optional feature of OSP=
F-TE=20
named multi-LSA instance, that you seem to advocate as the solution to limi=
t=20
update sizes, and I&nbsp;am sorry to&nbsp;point that&nbsp;we have=20
indeed&nbsp;provided such results inside section 5 of draft-peloso- not at =
the=20
advantage of multi-instance. Though, the&nbsp;lack inside currrent=20
drafts&nbsp;on how to proceed, forced us&nbsp;to best-guess. We would be gl=
ad=20
(as I bet the WG would) to&nbsp;be told in which instance shall be&nbsp;whi=
ch=20
TLVs.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SP=
AN=20
class=3D484551620-16062011></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SP=
AN=20
class=3D484551620-16062011></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=
=20
class=3D484551620-16062011>Pierre</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>De&nbsp;:</B>=20
ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] <B>De la part de</B>=
 Greg=20
Bernstein<BR><B>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</B> jeudi 16 juin 2011 20:02<BR><B>=C0&nbsp=
;:</B>=20
Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich)<BR><B>Cc&nbsp;:</B>=20
ccamp@ietf.org<BR><B>Objet&nbsp;:</B> Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version Notificat=
ion=20
fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV></DIV>Hi Cyril, can you furnish diagrams of the optical nodes, and t=
he=20
  encodings chosen when using the current WG documents. From the Peloso dra=
ft=20
  there is insufficient information to see where the encoding numbers quote=
d=20
  came from.&nbsp; The current draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-11.txt make=
s it=20
  relatively efficient to deal with lots of different regenerator types. In=
=20
  section 4.1 "Resource Block Information Sub-TLV" is defined as:<BR><BR><!=
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;=20
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p;=20
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nbsp;&nbsp;=20
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  <BR><TT><SPAN>&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN>|<SPAN>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; More resource=20
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bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN>:</SPAN></TT><BR><BR>The RB set field in this sub-TLV allows you t=
o=20
  specify once all the properties of a class of regenerators and apply it t=
o a=20
  set of resource blocks. Hence this scales as the number of regenerator ty=
pes=20
  not as the number of resource blocks.&nbsp; Hence the existing WSON encod=
ing=20
  should solve your problem of many types of regenerators within an optical=
=20
  node.<BR><BR>Without further information I can't see how the Peloso draft=
 gets=20
  the numbers it quotes for the size of the information to be distributed. =
In=20
  addition it doesn't appear that the Peloso draft uses the OSPF group's=20
  recommended practice of multiple LSA instances. But once again insufficie=
nt=20
  information is given to justify the numbers. If there is a problem with=20
  encoding for a particular switch case I'm sure we can quickly find a solu=
tion=20
  that has a minimal impact on the existing WSON related WG drafts, but fir=
st we=20
  really need to understand the optical node and the cause (if any) the the=
=20
  encoding expansion.<BR><BR>Greg B.<BR><BR><BR>On 6/15/2011 12:35 AM, Marg=
aria,=20
  Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:=20
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
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    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'=
,'sans-serif'">Hi=20
    Greg, CCAMPers, <O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
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    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'=
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    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'=
,'sans-serif'">Regarding=20
    point (2), using one regen type per OTUk (k in [[1..4]]), and 2 type of=
=20
    laser module per reach makes already 8 type of oeo properties. Adding=20
    slightly different hw types (i.e old board with old modulation and a mo=
re=20
    recent with DP-QPSK) makes an easy 10 types for a big=20
    node.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
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,'sans-serif'"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'=
,'sans-serif'">Without=20
    going into product families this sounded reasonable (for instance a typ=
ical=20
    product would indicate supports for 10 and 40g with different modulatio=
n, so=20
    lets say 2 sub-board type, which makes 6 regen type); The introduction =
of=20
    OTU4 and later OTU5 will increase the types of regenerator=20
    supported.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'=
,'sans-serif'"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'=
,'sans-serif'">The=20
    size expansion is indeed related to the number of regenerator type, res=
ource=20
    blocks contain connectivity, oeo-feature and how the blocks are=20
    grouped.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'=
,'sans-serif'"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'=
,'sans-serif'">The=20
    other point would indeed clarify the document, the setup of resource=20
    pools/blocks is shown in Figure 1, a resource pool aggregating &nbsp;th=
e=20
    connectivity for several resource blocks.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'=
,'sans-serif'"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'=
,'sans-serif'">Best=20
    regards.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'=
,'sans-serif'"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'=
,'sans-serif'"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'=
,'sans-serif'"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
    <DIV=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: med=
ium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: 1.5pt solid;=
 PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
    <DIV>
    <DIV=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: rgb=
(181,196,223) 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEF=
T: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','san=
s-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','san=
s-serif'">=20
    <A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-abbreviated=20
    href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</A> [<A=20
    class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext=20
    href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</A=
>]=20
    <B>On Behalf Of </B>ext Greg Bernstein<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 13,=
 2011=20
    8:20 PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-abbreviated=20
    href=3D"mailto:ccamp@ietf.org">ccamp@ietf.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B> Re=
:=20
    [CCAMP] TR: New Version Notification=20
    fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV><=
/DIV>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal>Hi Pierre and draft authors, can you provide:<BR>(=
1)=20
    Diagrams of the example switches particularly with respect to the struc=
ture=20
    of the resource pools/blocks.<BR>(2) Explanation of why so many differe=
nt=20
    types (not number) of regenerators in an optical node. You site 5 diffe=
rent=20
    types for a small node and 10 for a large node. Can you point to a prod=
uct=20
    family?&nbsp; I would think 0-1 types of regenerators for a small node =
and=20
    at maybe 2 for a large node or nodes that deal with long haul and metro=
=20
    types modulations.&nbsp; <BR>(3) Can you provide the example encodings =
such=20
    as done in the appendix of the encoding document so we can understand w=
here=20
    the expansion is taking place.<BR><BR>It seems that the size expansions=
 is=20
    directly related to the number of regenerator types, but hard to tell f=
rom=20
    this document.&nbsp; Are there any other WSON interested parties that h=
ave a=20
    need for so many regenerator types?<BR><BR>Cheers<BR><BR>Greg=20
    B.<BR></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>--snip -- <BR><PRE class=3Dmoz-signa=
ture cols=3D"72">--=20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237

</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

--_000_CCBFBB7025DF984494DEC3285C05815212967A9F89FRMRSSXCHMBSA_--

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From: "Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich)" <cyril.margaria@nsn.com>
To: "ext Leeyoung" <leeyoung@huawei.com>, "ext Greg Bernstein" <gregb@grotto-networking.com>, <ccamp@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version Notificationfordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt
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Hi Young Lee, Ccamper's,=20

=20

Reducing the type of regenerator makes sense but  mixing regenerator
type makes also sense, as you would try to avoid having only 40G-capable
3R when you can go for a cheaper 10G regenerator, depending on your
demands.=20

=20

  In Greenfield deployments single rate makes sense, in an existing
networks having multi-rate (2) support with different electrical module
may be less common but should still be supported. =20

   This kind of network would need 6 description for the processing
capability alone.  The total number of resource description need to be
higher, as in the info model  the description of a regenerator include
the number of resource. Each time the connectivity imply a different
number of regenerator are grouped together a separate ResourceBlockInfo
should be used (Separating connectivity and regenerator setup would help
here).

=20

Best case would see indeed 0-2 type of regenerator, intermediate actual
deployments can see 6 types of regenerator, we also considered looking
at possible evolutions, 10 being in our opinion a reasonable number.

=20

I hope it could help you understand better what is considered in the
draft. Those consideration will be more detailed in the next revision
of the draft.

=20

Best Regards

=20

=20

=20

From: ext Leeyoung [mailto:leeyoung@huawei.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 10:47 PM
To: Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Greg Bernstein;
ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [CCAMP] TR: New Version
Notificationfordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt

=20

Hi Cyril,

=20

I think your analysis below is very theoretical and a bit out of reality
in WSON node configuration.=20

=20

We are dealing with wavelength level so that OTUk level is transparent
to WSON. In typical optical switch node configuration in WSON, we don't
simply mix up all possible kinds of regenerators per each modulation
type. It is true that we have many modulation types for each rate and
the model should support all possibility. But this does not mean we have
all "10 types" at the same time in a node design. As you know,
regenerator is one of the most expensive WSON elements and having many
types in a node is not economical and not realistic.=20

=20

As far as my understanding of node design, we don't have such thing as
you said in your email to support 10+ different types of regenerators in
a node. In a typical commercially deployed WSON switching node, we have
one rate (e.g., 10G or 40G, or possibly others) and one regenerator type
for each rate. If we have multi-rate support, we may have two rates and
thus two regenerators in a typical WSON switching node.=20

=20

I would be interested in the node design diagram that supports 10+
different regenerators at the same time. I haven't seen such one myself
yet.

=20

Please also note that the WSON model has to support transparent node
configuration, which we don't have "regen" element.=20

=20

Best Regards,

Young

=20

=20

=20

________________________________

From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
Of Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich)
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 2:36 AM
To: ext Greg Bernstein; ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version Notification
fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt

=20

=20


Hi Greg, CCAMPers,=20

=20

Regarding point (2), using one regen type per OTUk (k in [[1..4]]), and
2 type of laser module per reach makes already 8 type of oeo properties.
Adding slightly different hw types (i.e old board with old modulation
and a more recent with DP-QPSK) makes an easy 10 types for a big node.

=20

Without going into product families this sounded reasonable (for
instance a typical product would indicate supports for 10 and 40g with
different modulation, so lets say 2 sub-board type, which makes 6 regen
type); The introduction of OTU4 and later OTU5 will increase the types
of regenerator supported.

=20

The size expansion is indeed related to the number of regenerator type,
resource blocks contain connectivity, oeo-feature and how the blocks are
grouped.

=20

The other point would indeed clarify the document, the setup of resource
pools/blocks is shown in Figure 1, a resource pool aggregating  the
connectivity for several resource blocks.

=20

Best regards.

=20

=20

=20

From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
Of ext Greg Bernstein
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 8:20 PM
To: ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version Notification
fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt

=20

Hi Pierre and draft authors, can you provide:
(1) Diagrams of the example switches particularly with respect to the
structure of the resource pools/blocks.
(2) Explanation of why so many different types (not number) of
regenerators in an optical node. You site 5 different types for a small
node and 10 for a large node. Can you point to a product family?  I
would think 0-1 types of regenerators for a small node and at maybe 2
for a large node or nodes that deal with long haul and metro types
modulations. =20
(3) Can you provide the example encodings such as done in the appendix
of the encoding document so we can understand where the expansion is
taking place.

It seems that the size expansions is directly related to the number of
regenerator types, but hard to tell from this document.  Are there any
other WSON interested parties that have a need for so many regenerator
types?

Cheers

Greg B.

On 6/10/2011 7:19 AM, PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) wrote:=20

Hi Ccampers,
=20
During Prague meeting I was asked to provide a draft detailing the
solution we were presenting then concerning OSPF-TE extensions for
Wavelength Switched Optical Networks (see point 10 of ccamp minutes).
Julien, Giovanni, Cyril and I have tackled this work of providing a
complete description of the solution with commonalities and deltas from
the existing solution held in the following drafts:
  - draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-11
  - draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-04
  - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-00
  - draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-11
  - draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-04
=20
Feedback from the working group is welcome.
=20
To trigger this feedback, this draft holds inside section 5 a numerical
study on the amount of static and dynamic information to be flooded.
This study was conducted on various typical WSON nodes and compares the
size of the LSAs between the two solutions.
=20
Regards,
=20
- Pierre
=20
=20
_______________________________________________
CCAMP mailing list
CCAMP@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

=20

--=20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237
=20

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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=3Dwhite =
lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Hi Young Lee, Ccamper&#8217;s, <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Reducing the type of regenerator makes sense but &nbsp;mixing =
regenerator type makes also sense, as you would try to avoid having only =
40G-capable 3R when you can go for a cheaper 10G regenerator, depending =
on your demands. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp; In Greenfield deployments single rate makes sense, in an =
existing networks having multi-rate (2) support with different =
electrical module may be less common but should still be supported. =
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;This kind of network would need 6 description for =
the processing capability alone. &nbsp;The total number of resource =
description need to be higher, as in the info model &nbsp;the =
description of a regenerator include the number of resource. Each time =
the connectivity imply a different number of regenerator are grouped =
together a separate ResourceBlockInfo should be used (Separating =
connectivity and regenerator setup would help =
here).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Best case would see indeed 0-2 type of regenerator, intermediate =
actual deployments can see 6 types of regenerator, we also considered =
looking at possible evolutions, 10 being in our opinion a reasonable =
number.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I hope it could help you understand better what is considered in the =
draft. Those consideration will be more detailed in the next revision =
&nbsp;of the draft.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Best Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'> ext Leeyoung [mailto:leeyoung@huawei.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> =
Thursday, June 16, 2011 10:47 PM<br><b>To:</b> Margaria, Cyril (NSN - =
DE/Munich); ext Greg Bernstein; ccamp@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: =
[CCAMP] TR: New Version =
Notificationfordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Hi=
 Cyril,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>I =
think your analysis below is very theoretical and a bit out of reality =
in WSON node configuration. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>We=
 are dealing with wavelength level so that OTUk level is transparent to =
WSON. In typical optical switch node configuration in WSON, we =
don&#8217;t simply mix up all possible kinds of regenerators per each =
modulation type. It is true that we have many modulation types for each =
rate and the model should support all possibility. But this does not =
mean we have all &#8220;10 types&#8221; at the same time in a node =
design. As you know, regenerator is one of the most expensive WSON =
elements and having many types in a node is not economical and not =
realistic. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>As=
 far as my understanding of node design, we don&#8217;t have such thing =
as you said in your email to support 10+ different types of regenerators =
in a node. In a typical commercially deployed WSON switching node, we =
have one rate (e.g., 10G or 40G, or possibly others) and one regenerator =
type for each rate. If we have multi-rate support, we may have two rates =
and thus two regenerators in a typical WSON switching node. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>I =
would be interested in the node design diagram that supports 10+ =
different regenerators at the same time. I haven&#8217;t seen such one =
myself yet.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Pl=
ease also note that the WSON model has to support transparent node =
configuration, which we don&#8217;t have &#8220;regen&#8221; element. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Be=
st Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Yo=
ung<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'text-align:center'><span style=3D'color:windowtext'><hr =
size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter></span></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'> ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich)<br><b>Sent:</b> =
Wednesday, June 15, 2011 2:36 AM<br><b>To:</b> ext Greg Bernstein; =
ccamp@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version =
Notification fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt</span><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><!--[if gte =
vml 1]><v:shapetype id=3D"_x0000_t74" coordsize=3D"21600,21600" =
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m62793!!!1@6B1B5B110B322C71D4110B322C71D4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
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!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
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!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
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!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
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!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1!1" =
style=3D'position:absolute;margin-left:0;margin-top:0;width:.05pt;height:=
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</v:shape><![endif]--><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><br style=3D'mso-ignore:vglayout' =
clear=3DALL><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Hi Greg, CCAMPers, <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Regarding point (2), using one regen type per OTUk (k in [[1..4]]), =
and 2 type of laser module per reach makes already 8 type of oeo =
properties. Adding slightly different hw types (i.e old board with old =
modulation and a more recent with DP-QPSK) makes an easy 10 types for a =
big node.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Without going into product families this sounded reasonable (for =
instance a typical product would indicate supports for 10 and 40g with =
different modulation, so lets say 2 sub-board type, which makes 6 regen =
type); The introduction of OTU4 and later OTU5 will increase the types =
of regenerator supported.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>The size expansion is indeed related to the number of regenerator =
type, resource blocks contain connectivity, oeo-feature and how the =
blocks are grouped.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>The other point would indeed clarify the document, the setup of =
resource pools/blocks is shown in Figure 1, a resource pool aggregating =
&nbsp;the connectivity for several resource =
blocks.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Best regards.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'> ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>ext Greg Bernstein<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 13, 2011 =
8:20 PM<br><b>To:</b> ccamp@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCAMP] TR: =
New Version Notification =
fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hi =
Pierre and draft authors, can you provide:<br>(1) Diagrams of the =
example switches particularly with respect to the structure of the =
resource pools/blocks.<br>(2) Explanation of why so many different types =
(not number) of regenerators in an optical node. You site 5 different =
types for a small node and 10 for a large node. Can you point to a =
product family?&nbsp; I would think 0-1 types of regenerators for a =
small node and at maybe 2 for a large node or nodes that deal with long =
haul and metro types modulations.&nbsp; <br>(3) Can you provide the =
example encodings such as done in the appendix of the encoding document =
so we can understand where the expansion is taking place.<br><br>It =
seems that the size expansions is directly related to the number of =
regenerator types, but hard to tell from this document.&nbsp; Are there =
any other WSON interested parties that have a need for so many =
regenerator types?<br><br>Cheers<br><br>Greg B.<br><br>On 6/10/2011 7:19 =
AM, PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) wrote: <o:p></o:p></p><pre>Hi =
Ccampers,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>During Prague =
meeting I was asked to provide a draft detailing the solution we were =
presenting then concerning OSPF-TE extensions for Wavelength Switched =
Optical Networks (see point 10 of ccamp =
minutes).<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Julien, Giovanni, Cyril and I have =
tackled this work of providing a complete description of the solution =
with commonalities and deltas from the existing solution held in the =
following drafts:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp; - =
draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-11<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp; - =
draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-04<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;=
 - =
draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-00<o:p></o:p></pre><pr=
e>&nbsp; - =
draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-11<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp; - =
draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-04<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>Feedback from the working group is =
welcome.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>To trigger =
this feedback, this draft holds inside section 5 a numerical study on =
the amount of static and dynamic information to be =
flooded.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>This study was conducted on various =
typical WSON nodes and compares the size of the LSAs between the two =
solutions.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>Regards,<o:p>=
</o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>- =
Pierre<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</pre><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pr=
e><pre>CCAMP mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a =
href=3D"mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org">CCAMP@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a=
 =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/ccamp</a><o:p></o:p></pre><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><pre>-- =
<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Dr Greg Bernstein, =
Grotto Networking (510) =
573-2237<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre></div></div></div></=
body></html>
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From zhangfatai@huawei.com  Fri Jun 17 01:47:08 2011
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Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 16:45:37 +0800
From: Fatai Zhang <zhangfatai@huawei.com>
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To: "'PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE)'" <pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.com>, 'Greg Bernstein' <gregb@grotto-networking.com>
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Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version	Notification	fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt
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Hi Pierre,

=20

We know that it follows the logic (WSON Framework->WSON Info model->WSON =
Encoding->OSPF/RSVP-TE extensions) for WSON work.

=20

Let=E2=80=99s focus on WSON Info model first. We know that [Info Model] =
only describe what information should be considered for CP in WSON =
network.

=20

You said =E2=80=9Cit has significant impact on the info model, the =
encodings and the LSA layout (hence OSPF-TE)=E2=80=9D .

=20

Could you tell the WG what is the significant impact on info model =
first? What information is missed or what information is redundant in =
[ietf-ccamp-rwa-info]?

=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

Thanks
=20
Fatai

=20

From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE)
Sent: 2011=E5=B9=B46=E6=9C=8817=E6=97=A5 5:43
To: Greg Bernstein
Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version Notification =
fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt

=20

Hi Greg, Ccamper's

=20

First of all thanks for your comments, we'll make sure to integrate them =
properly in the revision to come of draft-peloso-.

=20

We understand the impression given by the length of the draft, this =
comes actually from two facts: first the request by the WG and its =
chairs indications to gather in a single document the changes from info =
down to OSPF-TE and second that the 5 drafts with which we are drawing a =
parallel are lengthy themselves once concatenated, which we cannot avoid =
ourselves.

=20

To ease anyone's reading, we'll see how to arrange things in the next =
revision, though ccamper's shall not expect a big reduction of pages as =
the deltas between the solutions proposed are more important than you =
summarized to the WG. This changes permitted to reach the gain in LSA =
size that we obtained especially concering the updates (read section 5). =
>From a high-level view, most of the modifications target the WSON part, =
it has significant impact on the info model, the encodings and the LSA =
layout (hence OSPF-TE).

=20

We've noticed you were concerned by the way we conducted the size study. =
First, we have determined and described a given set of nodes we wanted =
to work on in a futur proof though reasonnable perspective. Second, we =
have used the drafts contents nammely recommendations of the info models =
and the encodings in order to derive the encodings then summed them to =
determine the size of each LSA, for each of the solutions.We thought =
anyone familiar with the drafts to proceed similarly, hence would have =
the capability to doublecheck. Reading your past emails, I have not =
noticed yet any doubt express there relative to our misusing the =
previous draft that reveals itself accurate, then I keep trusting the =
accuracy of section 5.=20

=20

To help the discussion move forward, we'll detail more the node models =
we've taken. In the meanwhile, feel free to explicit the one you want to =
consider, if you wish to do a study.

=20

Finally, you mention the optional feature of OSPF-TE named multi-LSA =
instance, that you seem to advocate as the solution to limit update =
sizes, and I am sorry to point that we have indeed provided such results =
inside section 5 of draft-peloso- not at the advantage of =
multi-instance. Though, the lack inside currrent drafts on how to =
proceed, forced us to best-guess. We would be glad (as I bet the WG =
would) to be told in which instance shall be which TLVs.

=20

Pierre

  _____ =20

De : ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] De la part =
de Greg Bernstein
Envoy=C3=A9 : jeudi 16 juin 2011 20:02
=C3=80 : Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc : ccamp@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version Notification =
fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt

Hi Cyril, can you furnish diagrams of the optical nodes, and the =
encodings chosen when using the current WG documents. From the Peloso =
draft there is insufficient information to see where the encoding =
numbers quoted came from.  The current =
draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-11.txt makes it relatively efficient to =
deal with lots of different regenerator types. In section 4.1 "Resource =
Block Information Sub-TLV" is defined as:

    0                   1                   2                   3=20
    0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1=20
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20
   |                    RB Set Field                               |=20
   :                                                               :=20
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20
   |I|E|                        Reserved                           |=20
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20
   |           Input Modulation Type List Sub-Sub-TLV  (opt)       |=20
   :                                                               :=20
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20
   |           Input FEC Type List Sub-Sub-TLV    (opt)            |=20
   :                                                               :=20
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20
   |         Input Client Signal Type Sub-Sub-TLV      (opt)       |=20
   :                                                               :=20
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=20
   |        More resource description                              |=20
   :                                                               :

The RB set field in this sub-TLV allows you to specify once all the =
properties of a class of regenerators and apply it to a set of resource =
blocks. Hence this scales as the number of regenerator types not as the =
number of resource blocks.  Hence the existing WSON encoding should =
solve your problem of many types of regenerators within an optical node.

Without further information I can't see how the Peloso draft gets the =
numbers it quotes for the size of the information to be distributed. In =
addition it doesn't appear that the Peloso draft uses the OSPF group's =
recommended practice of multiple LSA instances. But once again =
insufficient information is given to justify the numbers. If there is a =
problem with encoding for a particular switch case I'm sure we can =
quickly find a solution that has a minimal impact on the existing WSON =
related WG drafts, but first we really need to understand the optical =
node and the cause (if any) the the encoding expansion.

Greg B.


On 6/15/2011 12:35 AM, Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:=20

Hi Greg, CCAMPers,=20

Regarding point (2), using one regen type per OTUk (k in [[1..4]]), and =
2 type of laser module per reach makes already 8 type of oeo properties. =
Adding slightly different hw types (i.e old board with old modulation =
and a more recent with DP-QPSK) makes an easy 10 types for a big node.

Without going into product families this sounded reasonable (for =
instance a typical product would indicate supports for 10 and 40g with =
different modulation, so lets say 2 sub-board type, which makes 6 regen =
type); The introduction of OTU4 and later OTU5 will increase the types =
of regenerator supported.

The size expansion is indeed related to the number of regenerator type, =
resource blocks contain connectivity, oeo-feature and how the blocks are =
grouped.

The other point would indeed clarify the document, the setup of resource =
pools/blocks is shown in Figure 1, a resource pool aggregating  the =
connectivity for several resource blocks.

Best regards.

From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of ext Greg Bernstein
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 8:20 PM
To: ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version Notification =
fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt

Hi Pierre and draft authors, can you provide:
(1) Diagrams of the example switches particularly with respect to the =
structure of the resource pools/blocks.
(2) Explanation of why so many different types (not number) of =
regenerators in an optical node. You site 5 different types for a small =
node and 10 for a large node. Can you point to a product family?  I =
would think 0-1 types of regenerators for a small node and at maybe 2 =
for a large node or nodes that deal with long haul and metro types =
modulations. =20
(3) Can you provide the example encodings such as done in the appendix =
of the encoding document so we can understand where the expansion is =
taking place.

It seems that the size expansions is directly related to the number of =
regenerator types, but hard to tell from this document.  Are there any =
other WSON interested parties that have a need for so many regenerator =
types?

Cheers

Greg B.

--snip --=20



--=20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237
=20


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class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>Hi =
Pierre,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:windowtext'><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>We know =
that it follows the logic (WSON Framework-&gt;WSON Info model-&gt;WSON =
Encoding-&gt;OSPF/RSVP-TE extensions) for WSON =
work.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:windowtext'><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>Let=E2=80=99=
s focus on WSON Info model first. We know that [Info Model] only =
describe what information should be considered for CP in WSON =
network.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:windowtext'><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>You said =
=E2=80=9C</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'>it=
 has significant impact on the info model, the encodings and the LSA =
layout (hence OSPF-TE)</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'>=E2=
=80=9D</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> =
.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:windowtext'><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>Could you =
tell the WG what is the significant impact on info model first? What =
information is missed or what information is redundant in =
[ietf-ccamp-rwa-info]?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:windowtext'><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:windowtext'><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:windowtext'><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:windowtext'><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:windowtext'><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>Thanks<br>&=
nbsp;<br>Fatai</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:windowtext'><o:p></o:p>=
</span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:windowtext'><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'> ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE)<br><b>Sent:</b> 2011</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;color:windowtext=
'>=E5=B9=B4</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'>6</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;color:windowtext=
'>=E6=9C=88</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'>17</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;color:windowtext=
'>=E6=97=A5</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'> 5:43<br><b>To:</b> Greg Bernstein<br><b>Cc:</b> =
ccamp@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version =
Notification =
fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'>Hi=
 Greg, Ccamper's</span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'>Fi=
rst of all thanks for your comments, we'll make sure to integrate them =
properly in the revision to come of draft-peloso-.</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'>We=
 understand the impression given by the length of the draft, this comes =
actually from two facts: first the request by the&nbsp;WG and its chairs =
indications to gather in a single document the changes from info down to =
OSPF-TE and&nbsp;second that the 5 drafts&nbsp;with which we are drawing =
a parallel are lengthy themselves once concatenated, which we cannot =
avoid ourselves.</span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'>To=
 ease anyone's reading, we'll see how to arrange things in the next =
revision, though ccamper's shall not expect a big reduction of =
pages&nbsp;as&nbsp;the deltas between the solutions proposed are more =
important than you summarized to the WG. This changes =
permitted&nbsp;to&nbsp;reach&nbsp;the gain in LSA size that we obtained =
especially concering the updates (read section 5). From a high-level =
view, most of the modifications target the WSON part, it has significant =
impact on the info model, the encodings and the LSA layout (hence =
OSPF-TE).</span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'>We=
've&nbsp;noticed you were concerned by the way we conducted the size =
study. First, we have&nbsp;determined and described a given set of nodes =
we wanted to work on in a futur proof though reasonnable perspective. =
Second, we have used the drafts contents nammely recommendations of the =
info models and the encodings in order to derive the encodings then =
summed them&nbsp;to determine the size of each LSA, for each of the =
solutions.We thought&nbsp;anyone familiar with the drafts to proceed =
similarly, hence would have the capability to doublecheck. Reading your =
past emails, I have not noticed yet any doubt express =
there&nbsp;relative to our&nbsp;misusing the previous draft&nbsp;that =
reveals itself accurate, then I&nbsp;keep&nbsp;trusting the accuracy =
of&nbsp;section 5.&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'>To=
 help the discussion move forward, we'll detail more the node models =
we've taken.&nbsp;In the meanwhile, feel free to explicit the one you =
want to consider, if you wish to do a study.</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'>Fi=
nally, you mention the optional feature of OSPF-TE named multi-LSA =
instance, that you seem to advocate as the solution to limit update =
sizes, and I&nbsp;am sorry to&nbsp;point that&nbsp;we have =
indeed&nbsp;provided such results inside section 5 of draft-peloso- not =
at the advantage of multi-instance. Though, the&nbsp;lack inside =
currrent drafts&nbsp;on how to proceed, forced us&nbsp;to best-guess. We =
would be glad (as I bet the WG would) to&nbsp;be told in which instance =
shall be&nbsp;which TLVs.</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Pierre</span>=
<span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><div class=3DMsoNormal =
align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><span lang=3DEN-US><hr =
size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter></span></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>De&nbsp;:</s=
pan></b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] <b>De la part =
de</b> Greg Bernstein<br><b>Envoy=C3=A9&nbsp;:</b> jeudi 16 juin 2011 =
20:02<br><b>=C3=80&nbsp;:</b> Margaria, Cyril (NSN - =
DE/Munich)<br><b>Cc&nbsp;:</b> ccamp@ietf.org<br><b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: =
[CCAMP] TR: New Version Notification =
fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>Hi Cyril, can you furnish diagrams =
of the optical nodes, and the encodings chosen when using the current WG =
documents. From the Peloso draft there is insufficient information to =
see where the encoding numbers quoted came from.&nbsp; The current =
draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-11.txt makes it relatively efficient to =
deal with lots of different regenerator types. In section 4.1 =
&quot;Resource Block Information Sub-TLV&quot; is defined =
as:<br><br></span><tt><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
0&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
1&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3</span></tt><span lang=3DEN-US> =
<br></span><tt><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 =
3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1</span></tt><span lang=3DEN-US> =
<br></span><tt><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</span><=
/tt><span lang=3DEN-US> <br></span><tt><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;RB Set Field =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |</span></tt><span lang=3DEN-US> =
<br></span><tt><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
:</span></tt><span lang=3DEN-US> <br></span><tt><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</span><=
/tt><span lang=3DEN-US> <br></span><tt><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp; &nbsp;|I|E| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Reserved&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |</span></tt><span =
lang=3DEN-US> <br></span><tt><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</span><=
/tt><span lang=3DEN-US> <br></span><tt><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Input =
Modulation Type List Sub-Sub-TLV&nbsp; =
(opt)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |</span></tt><span =
lang=3DEN-US> <br></span><tt><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; :</span></tt><span lang=3DEN-US> <br></span><tt><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</span><=
/tt><span lang=3DEN-US> <br></span><tt><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Input FEC =
Type List Sub-Sub-TLV&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
(opt)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|</span></tt><span lang=3DEN-US> <br></span><tt><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
:</span></tt><span lang=3DEN-US> <br></span><tt><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</span><=
/tt><span lang=3DEN-US> <br></span><tt><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Input Client Signal =
Type Sub-Sub-TLV&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
(opt)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |</span></tt><span =
lang=3DEN-US> <br></span><tt><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
:</span></tt><span lang=3DEN-US> <br></span><tt><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</span><=
/tt><span lang=3DEN-US> <br></span><tt><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; More resource =
description&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |</span></tt><span =
lang=3DEN-US> <br></span><tt><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; :</span></tt><span lang=3DEN-US><br><br>The RB set field in =
this sub-TLV allows you to specify once all the properties of a class of =
regenerators and apply it to a set of resource blocks. Hence this scales =
as the number of regenerator types not as the number of resource =
blocks.&nbsp; Hence the existing WSON encoding should solve your problem =
of many types of regenerators within an optical node.<br><br>Without =
further information I can't see how the Peloso draft gets the numbers it =
quotes for the size of the information to be distributed. In addition it =
doesn't appear that the Peloso draft uses the OSPF group's recommended =
practice of multiple LSA instances. But once again insufficient =
information is given to justify the numbers. If there is a problem with =
encoding for a particular switch case I'm sure we can quickly find a =
solution that has a minimal impact on the existing WSON related WG =
drafts, but first we really need to understand the optical node and the =
cause (if any) the the encoding expansion.<br><br>Greg B.<br><br><br>On =
6/15/2011 12:35 AM, Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote: =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Hi Greg, CCAMPers, </span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Regarding point (2), using one regen type per OTUk (k in [[1..4]]), =
and 2 type of laser module per reach makes already 8 type of oeo =
properties. Adding slightly different hw types (i.e old board with old =
modulation and a more recent with DP-QPSK) makes an easy 10 types for a =
big node.</span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Without going into product families this sounded reasonable (for =
instance a typical product would indicate supports for 10 and 40g with =
different modulation, so lets say 2 sub-board type, which makes 6 regen =
type); The introduction of OTU4 and later OTU5 will increase the types =
of regenerator supported.</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>The size expansion is indeed related to the number of regenerator =
type, resource blocks contain connectivity, oeo-feature and how the =
blocks are grouped.</span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>The other point would indeed clarify the document, the setup of =
resource pools/blocks is shown in Figure 1, a resource pool aggregating =
&nbsp;the connectivity for several resource blocks.</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Best regards.</span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'> <a =
href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a =
href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a>]=
 <b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Greg Bernstein<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 13, =
2011 8:20 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:ccamp@ietf.org">ccamp@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[CCAMP] TR: New Version Notification =
fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>Hi Pierre and draft authors, can =
you provide:<br>(1) Diagrams of the example switches particularly with =
respect to the structure of the resource pools/blocks.<br>(2) =
Explanation of why so many different types (not number) of regenerators =
in an optical node. You site 5 different types for a small node and 10 =
for a large node. Can you point to a product family?&nbsp; I would think =
0-1 types of regenerators for a small node and at maybe 2 for a large =
node or nodes that deal with long haul and metro types =
modulations.&nbsp; <br>(3) Can you provide the example encodings such as =
done in the appendix of the encoding document so we can understand where =
the expansion is taking place.<br><br>It seems that the size expansions =
is directly related to the number of regenerator types, but hard to tell =
from this document.&nbsp; Are there any other WSON interested parties =
that have a need for so many regenerator =
types?<br><br>Cheers<br><br>Greg B.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>--snip -- =
<br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><pre><span lang=3DEN-US>-- =
<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
lang=3DEN-US>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=3DEN-US>Dr =
Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) =
573-2237<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre></blockquote></div></body></ht=
ml>=

--Boundary_(ID_MxjfeCneYQmT5XjHrgjitQ)--

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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version	Notification	fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt
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 From the Prague meeting notes, the purpose of this work was to look 
into a possible inefficiency in the encoding used in the WSON drafts. 
Not an arbitrary rewrite of the WSON Info, WSON encoding, General 
Constraints Encoding, WSON specifc OSPF extensions, and General 
Constraint extensions for OSPF.  Any change needs to be justified with 
clear evidence showing that
(1) There is a problem -- including
     (a) The problem is realistic
     (b) The problem cannot be address by mechanisms within the current 
WG drafts and standard practices such as OSPF instances for separating 
dynamic and static information.
(2) An analysis that shows precisely where in the current scheme 
facilities are lacking
(3) A proposed solution that makes minimal changes to the existing 
documents.

The Peloso draft-03 fails on all these accounts by starting with a long 
list of proposed changes that do not appear tied to solving a particular 
encoding problem. The "example node" is insufficiently documented to 
ascertain either 1(a) or 1(b) above.  Item 2 is inadequately addressed, 
example sub-TLVs are not given, etc... If there is an problem encoding a 
particular type of optical system we can fix it as soon as we know what 
it is.  However, general changes to the current WG drafts are out of 
scope of this particular effort.

Greg

On 6/17/2011 2:06 AM, PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) wrote:
> Hi Fatai,
> When having an info model, there are two things, the first as you 
> mention consists in describing which information are to be considered 
> for a CP, the second consists in descibing how this information is 
> modelized (meaning how it is organized otherwise that is not a model) 
> and that is what was already done - e.g. draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info 
> relies on RBNFs to describe the model.
> Here, the main impact is on the second point, the way the information 
> is organized, more than on which information is to be described.
> Hence, in order to address your concern of a summary of differences 
> between the info model, I would suggest interested parties to read the 
> section 5.1 of draft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03#section-5.1
> Regards,
> Pierre
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     *De :* Fatai Zhang [mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com]
>     *EnvoyÃ© :* vendredi 17 juin 2011 10:46
>     *Ã€ :* PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE); 'Greg Bernstein'
>     *Cc :* ccamp@ietf.org
>     *Objet :* RE: [CCAMP] TR: New Version Notification
>     fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt
>
>     Hi Pierre,
>
>     We know that it follows the logic (WSON Framework->WSON Info
>     model->WSON Encoding->OSPF/RSVP-TE extensions) for WSON work.
>
>     Letâ€™s focus on WSON Info model first. We know that [Info Model]
>     only describe what information should be considered for CP in WSON
>     network.
>
>     You said â€œit has significant impact on the info model, the
>     encodings and the LSA layout (hence OSPF-TE)â€.
>
>     Could you tell the WG what is the significant impact on info model
>     first? What information is missed or what information is redundant
>     in [ietf-ccamp-rwa-info]?
>
>     Thanks
>
>     Fatai
>
>     *From:*ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] *On
>     Behalf Of *PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE)
>     *Sent:* 2011å¹´6æœˆ17æ—¥5:43
>     *To:* Greg Bernstein
>     *Cc:* ccamp@ietf.org
>     *Subject:* Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version Notification
>     fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt
>
>     Hi Greg, Ccamper's
>
>     First of all thanks for your comments, we'll make sure to
>     integrate them properly in the revision to come of draft-peloso-.
>
>     We understand the impression given by the length of the draft,
>     this comes actually from two facts: first the request by the WG
>     and its chairs indications to gather in a single document the
>     changes from info down to OSPF-TE and second that the 5
>     drafts with which we are drawing a parallel are lengthy themselves
>     once concatenated, which we cannot avoid ourselves.
>
>     To ease anyone's reading, we'll see how to arrange things in the
>     next revision, though ccamper's shall not expect a big reduction
>     of pages as the deltas between the solutions proposed are more
>     important than you summarized to the WG. This changes
>     permitted to reach the gain in LSA size that we obtained
>     especially concering the updates (read section 5). From a
>     high-level view, most of the modifications target the WSON part,
>     it has significant impact on the info model, the encodings and the
>     LSA layout (hence OSPF-TE).
>
>     We've noticed you were concerned by the way we conducted the size
>     study. First, we have determined and described a given set of
>     nodes we wanted to work on in a futur proof though reasonnable
>     perspective. Second, we have used the drafts contents nammely
>     recommendations of the info models and the encodings in order to
>     derive the encodings then summed them to determine the size of
>     each LSA, for each of the solutions.We thought anyone familiar
>     with the drafts to proceed similarly, hence would have the
>     capability to doublecheck. Reading your past emails, I have not
>     noticed yet any doubt express there relative to our misusing the
>     previous draft that reveals itself accurate, then I keep trusting
>     the accuracy of section 5.
>
>     To help the discussion move forward, we'll detail more the node
>     models we've taken. In the meanwhile, feel free to explicit the
>     one you want to consider, if you wish to do a study.
>
>     Finally, you mention the optional feature of OSPF-TE named
>     multi-LSA instance, that you seem to advocate as the solution to
>     limit update sizes, and I am sorry to point that we have
>     indeed provided such results inside section 5 of draft-peloso- not
>     at the advantage of multi-instance. Though, the lack inside
>     currrent drafts on how to proceed, forced us to best-guess. We
>     would be glad (as I bet the WG would) to be told in which instance
>     shall be which TLVs.
>
>     Pierre
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     *De :*ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] *De
>     la part de* Greg Bernstein
>     *EnvoyÃ© :* jeudi 16 juin 2011 20:02
>     *Ã€ :* Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich)
>     *Cc :* ccamp@ietf.org
>     *Objet :* Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version Notification
>     fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt
>
>         Hi Cyril, can you furnish diagrams of the optical nodes, and
>         the encodings chosen when using the current WG documents. From
>         the Peloso draft there is insufficient information to see
>         where the encoding numbers quoted came from.  The current
>         draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-11.txt makes it relatively
>         efficient to deal with lots of different regenerator types. In
>         section 4.1 "Resource Block Information Sub-TLV" is defined as:
>
>             0                   1                   2                   3
>             0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
>         9 0 1
>           
>         +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>            |                    RB Set Field
>                                       |
>            :                                                          
>             :
>           
>         +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>            |I|E|                        Reserved     
>                              |
>           
>         +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>            |           Input Modulation Type List Sub-Sub-TLV 
>         (opt)       |
>           
>         :                                                               :
>           
>         +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>            |           Input FEC Type List Sub-Sub-TLV   
>         (opt)            |
>            :                                                          
>             :
>           
>         +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>            |         Input Client Signal Type Sub-Sub-TLV     
>         (opt)       |
>            :               
>                                                        :
>           
>         +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>            |        More resource description                     
>                 |
>           
>         :                                                               :
>
>         The RB set field in this sub-TLV allows you to specify once
>         all the properties of a class of regenerators and apply it to
>         a set of resource blocks. Hence this scales as the number of
>         regenerator types not as the number of resource blocks.  Hence
>         the existing WSON encoding should solve your problem of many
>         types of regenerators within an optical node.
>
>         Without further information I can't see how the Peloso draft
>         gets the numbers it quotes for the size of the information to
>         be distributed. In addition it doesn't appear that the Peloso
>         draft uses the OSPF group's recommended practice of multiple
>         LSA instances. But once again insufficient information is
>         given to justify the numbers. If there is a problem with
>         encoding for a particular switch case I'm sure we can quickly
>         find a solution that has a minimal impact on the existing WSON
>         related WG drafts, but first we really need to understand the
>         optical node and the cause (if any) the the encoding expansion.
>
>         Greg B.
>
>
>         On 6/15/2011 12:35 AM, Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>
>         Hi Greg, CCAMPers,
>
>         Regarding point (2), using one regen type per OTUk (k in
>         [[1..4]]), and 2 type of laser module per reach makes already
>         8 type of oeo properties. Adding slightly different hw types
>         (i.e old board with old modulation and a more recent with
>         DP-QPSK) makes an easy 10 types for a big node.
>
>         Without going into product families this sounded reasonable
>         (for instance a typical product would indicate supports for 10
>         and 40g with different modulation, so lets say 2 sub-board
>         type, which makes 6 regen type); The introduction of OTU4 and
>         later OTU5 will increase the types of regenerator supported.
>
>         The size expansion is indeed related to the number of
>         regenerator type, resource blocks contain connectivity,
>         oeo-feature and how the blocks are grouped.
>
>         The other point would indeed clarify the document, the setup
>         of resource pools/blocks is shown in Figure 1, a resource pool
>         aggregating  the connectivity for several resource blocks.
>
>         Best regards.
>
>         *From:*ccamp-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org>
>         [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *ext Greg Bernstein
>         *Sent:* Monday, June 13, 2011 8:20 PM
>         *To:* ccamp@ietf.org <mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
>         *Subject:* Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version Notification
>         fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt
>
>         Hi Pierre and draft authors, can you provide:
>         (1) Diagrams of the example switches particularly with respect
>         to the structure of the resource pools/blocks.
>         (2) Explanation of why so many different types (not number) of
>         regenerators in an optical node. You site 5 different types
>         for a small node and 10 for a large node. Can you point to a
>         product family?  I would think 0-1 types of regenerators for a
>         small node and at maybe 2 for a large node or nodes that deal
>         with long haul and metro types modulations.
>         (3) Can you provide the example encodings such as done in the
>         appendix of the encoding document so we can understand where
>         the expansion is taking place.
>
>         It seems that the size expansions is directly related to the
>         number of regenerator types, but hard to tell from this
>         document.  Are there any other WSON interested parties that
>         have a need for so many regenerator types?
>
>         Cheers
>
>         Greg B.
>
>         --snip --
>
>         -- 
>
>         ===================================================
>
>         Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237
>
>           
>


-- 
===================================================
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237



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    From the Prague meeting notes, the purpose of this work was to look
    into a possible inefficiency in the encoding used in the WSON
    drafts. Not an arbitrary rewrite of the WSON Info, WSON encoding,
    General Constraints Encoding, WSON specifc OSPF extensions, and
    General Constraint extensions for OSPF.Â  Any change needs to be
    justified with clear evidence showing that <br>
    (1) There is a problem -- including<br>
    Â Â Â  (a) The problem is realistic<br>
    Â Â Â  (b) The problem cannot be address by mechanisms within the
    current WG drafts and standard practices such as OSPF instances for
    separating dynamic and static information.<br>
    (2) An analysis that shows precisely where in the current scheme
    facilities are lacking<br>
    (3) A proposed solution that makes minimal changes to the existing
    documents.<br>
    <br>
    The Peloso draft-03 fails on all these accounts by starting with a
    long list of proposed changes that do not appear tied to solving a
    particular encoding problem. The "example node" is insufficiently
    documented to ascertain either 1(a) or 1(b) above.Â  Item 2 is
    inadequately addressed, example sub-TLVs are not given, etc... If
    there is an problem encoding a particular type of optical system we
    can fix it as soon as we know what it is.Â  However, general changes
    to the current WG drafts are out of scope of this particular
    effort.Â  <br>
    <br>
    Greg<br>
    <br>
    On 6/17/2011 2:06 AM, PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) wrote:
    <blockquote
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      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="480465108-17062011"><font
            size="2" color="#0000ff" face="Arial">Hi Fatai,</font></span></div>
      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="480465108-17062011"></span>Â </div>
      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="480465108-17062011"><font
            size="2" color="#0000ff" face="Arial">When having anÂ info
            model, there are two things, the firstÂ as you mention
            consists in describing which information are to be
            considered for a CP,Â the secondÂ consists inÂ descibing how
            this informationÂ is modelized (meaning how it is organized
            otherwise that is not a model) and that is what was already
            done - e.g. draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info relies on RBNFs to
            describe the model.</font></span></div>
      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="480465108-17062011"></span>Â </div>
      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="480465108-17062011"><font
            size="2" color="#0000ff" face="Arial">Here, the main impact
            is on the second point, the way the information is
            organized, more than on which information is to be
            described.</font></span></div>
      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="480465108-17062011"></span>Â </div>
      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="480465108-17062011"><font
            size="2" color="#0000ff" face="Arial">Hence, in order to
            address your concern ofÂ a summary of differences between the
            info model, I would suggestÂ interested partiesÂ to read the
            section 5.1 of draft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.</font></span></div>
      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="480465108-17062011"><font
            size="2" color="#0000ff" face="Arial"><a
              moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03#section-5.1">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03#section-5.1</a></font></span></div>
      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="480465108-17062011"></span>Â </div>
      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="480465108-17062011"><font
            size="2" color="#0000ff" face="Arial">Regards,</font></span></div>
      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="480465108-17062011"></span>Â </div>
      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span
            class="480465108-17062011">Pierre</span></font></div>
      <div>Â </div>
      <br>
      <blockquote dir="ltr" style="margin-right: 0px;">
        <div class="OutlookMessageHeader" dir="ltr" lang="fr"
          align="left">
          <hr tabindex="-1"> <font size="2" face="Tahoma"><b>DeÂ :</b>
            Fatai Zhang [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com">mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com</a>] <br>
            <b>EnvoyÃ©Â :</b> vendredi 17 juin 2011 10:46<br>
            <b>Ã€Â :</b> PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE); 'Greg Bernstein'<br>
            <b>CcÂ :</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ccamp@ietf.org">ccamp@ietf.org</a><br>
            <b>ObjetÂ :</b> RE: [CCAMP] TR: New Version Notification
            fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt<br>
          </font><br>
        </div>
        <div class="WordSection1">
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: windowtext;
              font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';" lang="EN-US">Hi
              Pierre,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: windowtext;
              font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';" lang="EN-US"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: windowtext;
              font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';" lang="EN-US">We know
              that it follows the logic (WSON Framework-&gt;WSON Info
              model-&gt;WSON Encoding-&gt;OSPF/RSVP-TE extensions) for
              WSON work.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: windowtext;
              font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';" lang="EN-US"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: windowtext;
              font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';" lang="EN-US">Letâ€™s
              focus on WSON Info model first. We know that [Info Model]
              only describe what information should be considered for CP
              in WSON network.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: windowtext;
              font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';" lang="EN-US"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: windowtext;
              font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';" lang="EN-US">You
              said â€œ</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: blue;
              font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif';" lang="EN-US">it has
              significant impact on the info model, the encodings and
              the LSA layout (hence OSPF-TE)</span><span
              style="font-size: 10pt; color: blue; font-family:
              'Arial','sans-serif';" lang="EN-US">â€</span><span
              style="color: windowtext; font-family:
              'Calibri','sans-serif';" lang="EN-US"> .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: windowtext;
              font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';" lang="EN-US"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: windowtext;
              font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';" lang="EN-US">Could
              you tell the WG what is the significant impact on info
              model first? What information is missed or what
              information is redundant in [ietf-ccamp-rwa-info]?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: windowtext;
              font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';" lang="EN-US"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify;"><span
                style="color: windowtext; font-family:
                'Calibri','sans-serif';" lang="EN-US"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify;"><span
                style="color: windowtext; font-family:
                'Calibri','sans-serif';" lang="EN-US"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify;"><span
                style="color: windowtext; font-family:
                'Calibri','sans-serif';" lang="EN-US"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify;"><span
                style="color: windowtext; font-family:
                'Calibri','sans-serif';" lang="EN-US"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify;"><span
                style="color: windowtext; font-family:
                'Calibri','sans-serif';" lang="EN-US">Thanks<br>
                Â <br>
                Fatai</span><span style="color: windowtext; font-family:
                'Calibri','sans-serif';" lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: windowtext;
              font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';" lang="EN-US"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
          <div>
            <div style="border-right: medium none; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;
              border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none
              none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color
              -moz-use-text-color;">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;
                    color: windowtext; font-family:
                    'Tahoma','sans-serif';" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
                  style="font-size: 10pt; color: windowtext;
                  font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif';" lang="EN-US">
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                  <b>On Behalf Of </b>PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE)<br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> 2011</span><span style="font-size: 10pt;
                  color: windowtext; font-family: å®‹ä½“;">å¹´</span><span
                  style="font-size: 10pt; color: windowtext;
                  font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif';" lang="EN-US">6</span><span
                  style="font-size: 10pt; color: windowtext;
                  font-family: å®‹ä½“;">æœˆ</span><span style="font-size:
                  10pt; color: windowtext; font-family:
                  'Tahoma','sans-serif';" lang="EN-US">17</span><span
                  style="font-size: 10pt; color: windowtext;
                  font-family: å®‹ä½“;">æ—¥</span><span style="font-size:
                  10pt; color: windowtext; font-family:
                  'Tahoma','sans-serif';" lang="EN-US"> 5:43<br>
                  <b>To:</b> Greg Bernstein<br>
                  <b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ccamp@ietf.org">ccamp@ietf.org</a><br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version
                  Notification
                  fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color:
              blue; font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif';" lang="EN-US">Hi
              Greg, Ccamper's</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Â <o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color:
              blue; font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif';" lang="EN-US">First
              of all thanks for your comments, we'll make sure to
              integrate them properly in the revision to come of
              draft-peloso-.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Â <o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color:
              blue; font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif';" lang="EN-US">We
              understand the impression given by the length of the
              draft, this comes actually from two facts: first the
              request by theÂ WG and its chairs indications to gather in
              a single document the changes from info down to OSPF-TE
              andÂ second that the 5 draftsÂ with which we are drawing a
              parallel are lengthy themselves once concatenated, which
              we cannot avoid ourselves.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Â <o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color:
              blue; font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif';" lang="EN-US">To
              ease anyone's reading, we'll see how to arrange things in
              the next revision, though ccamper's shall not expect a big
              reduction of pagesÂ asÂ the deltas between the solutions
              proposed are more important than you summarized to the WG.
              This changes permittedÂ toÂ reachÂ the gain in LSA size that
              we obtained especially concering the updates (read section
              5). From a high-level view, most of the modifications
              target the WSON part, it has significant impact on the
              info model, the encodings and the LSA layout (hence
              OSPF-TE).</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Â <o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color:
              blue; font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif';" lang="EN-US">We'veÂ noticed
              you were concerned by the way we conducted the size study.
              First, we haveÂ determined and described a given set of
              nodes we wanted to work on in a futur proof though
              reasonnable perspective. Second, we have used the drafts
              contents nammely recommendations of the info models and
              the encodings in order to derive the encodings then summed
              themÂ to determine the size of each LSA, for each of the
              solutions.We thoughtÂ anyone familiar with the drafts to
              proceed similarly, hence would have the capability to
              doublecheck. Reading your past emails, I have not noticed
              yet any doubt express thereÂ relative to ourÂ misusing the
              previous draftÂ that reveals itself accurate, then
              IÂ keepÂ trusting the accuracy ofÂ section 5.Â </span><span
              lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Â <o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color:
              blue; font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif';" lang="EN-US">To
              help the discussion move forward, we'll detail more the
              node models we've taken.Â In the meanwhile, feel free to
              explicit the one you want to consider, if you wish to do a
              study.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Â <o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color:
              blue; font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif';" lang="EN-US">Finally,
              you mention the optional feature of OSPF-TE named
              multi-LSA instance, that you seem to advocate as the
              solution to limit update sizes, and IÂ am sorry toÂ point
              thatÂ we have indeedÂ provided such results inside section 5
              of draft-peloso- not at the advantage of multi-instance.
              Though, theÂ lack inside currrent draftsÂ on how to proceed,
              forced usÂ to best-guess. We would be glad (as I bet the WG
              would) toÂ be told in which instance shall beÂ which TLVs.</span><span
              lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Â <o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
              font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif';" lang="EN-US">Pierre</span><span
              lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;"
            align="center"><span lang="EN-US">
              <hr size="2" align="center" width="100%"> </span></div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><b><span
                style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
                'Tahoma','sans-serif';" lang="EN-US">DeÂ :</span></b><span
              style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
              'Tahoma','sans-serif';" lang="EN-US">
              <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>De
                la part de</b> Greg Bernstein<br>
              <b>EnvoyÃ©Â :</b> jeudi 16 juin 2011 20:02<br>
              <b>Ã€Â :</b> Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich)<br>
              <b>CcÂ :</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ccamp@ietf.org">ccamp@ietf.org</a><br>
              <b>ObjetÂ :</b> Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version Notification
              fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt</span><span
              lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;
            margin-right: 0cm;">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Hi Cyril, can you
                furnish diagrams of the optical nodes, and the encodings
                chosen when using the current WG documents. From the
                Peloso draft there is insufficient information to see
                where the encoding numbers quoted came from.Â  The
                current draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-11.txt makes it
                relatively efficient to deal with lots of different
                regenerator types. In section 4.1 "Resource Block
                Information Sub-TLV" is defined as:<br>
                <br>
              </span><tt><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">Â Â Â 
                  0Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  1Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 
                  2Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  3</span></tt><span lang="EN-US"> <br>
              </span><tt><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">Â Â Â 
                  0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6
                  7 8 9 0 1</span></tt><span lang="EN-US"> <br>
              </span><tt><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">Â Â 
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</span></tt><span
                lang="EN-US"> <br>
              </span><tt><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">Â Â 
                  | Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  Â RB Set Field
                  Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  |</span></tt><span
                lang="EN-US"> <br>
              </span><tt><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">Â Â 
                  :Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 
                  Â  Â  :</span></tt><span lang="EN-US"> <br>
              </span><tt><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">Â Â 
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</span></tt><span
                lang="EN-US"> <br>
              </span><tt><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">Â 
                  Â |I|E| Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  ReservedÂ Â Â Â Â 
                  Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  |</span></tt><span lang="EN-US">
                <br>
              </span><tt><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">Â Â 
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</span></tt><span
                lang="EN-US"> <br>
              </span><tt><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">Â Â 
                  |Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  Input Modulation Type List Sub-Sub-TLVÂ 
                  (opt)Â Â Â Â Â Â  |</span></tt><span lang="EN-US"> <br>
              </span><tt><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">Â Â 
                  :Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 
                  :</span></tt><span lang="EN-US"> <br>
              </span><tt><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">Â Â 
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</span></tt><span
                lang="EN-US"> <br>
              </span><tt><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">Â Â 
                  |Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  Input FEC Type List Sub-Sub-TLVÂ Â Â 
                  (opt)Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  |</span></tt><span lang="EN-US"> <br>
              </span><tt><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">Â Â 
                  :Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 
                  Â  Â  :</span></tt><span lang="EN-US"> <br>
              </span><tt><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">Â Â 
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</span></tt><span
                lang="EN-US"> <br>
              </span><tt><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">Â Â 
                  |Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  Input Client Signal Type Sub-Sub-TLVÂ Â Â Â Â 
                  (opt)Â Â Â Â Â Â  |</span></tt><span lang="EN-US"> <br>
              </span><tt><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">Â Â 
                  :Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 
                  Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  :</span></tt><span
                lang="EN-US"> <br>
              </span><tt><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">Â Â 
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</span></tt><span
                lang="EN-US"> <br>
              </span><tt><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">Â Â 
                  |Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  More resource descriptionÂ Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â 
                  Â Â  Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  |</span></tt><span lang="EN-US"> <br>
              </span><tt><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">Â Â 
                  :Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 
                  :</span></tt><span lang="EN-US"><br>
                <br>
                The RB set field in this sub-TLV allows you to specify
                once all the properties of a class of regenerators and
                apply it to a set of resource blocks. Hence this scales
                as the number of regenerator types not as the number of
                resource blocks.Â  Hence the existing WSON encoding
                should solve your problem of many types of regenerators
                within an optical node.<br>
                <br>
                Without further information I can't see how the Peloso
                draft gets the numbers it quotes for the size of the
                information to be distributed. In addition it doesn't
                appear that the Peloso draft uses the OSPF group's
                recommended practice of multiple LSA instances. But once
                again insufficient information is given to justify the
                numbers. If there is a problem with encoding for a
                particular switch case I'm sure we can quickly find a
                solution that has a minimal impact on the existing WSON
                related WG drafts, but first we really need to
                understand the optical node and the cause (if any) the
                the encoding expansion.<br>
                <br>
                Greg B.<br>
                <br>
                <br>
                On 6/15/2011 12:35 AM, Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich)
                wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
                rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';"
                lang="EN-US">Hi Greg, CCAMPers, </span><span
                lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
                rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';"
                lang="EN-US">Regarding point (2), using one regen type
                per OTUk (k in [[1..4]]), and 2 type of laser module per
                reach makes already 8 type of oeo properties. Adding
                slightly different hw types (i.e old board with old
                modulation and a more recent with DP-QPSK) makes an easy
                10 types for a big node.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
                rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';"
                lang="EN-US">Without going into product families this
                sounded reasonable (for instance a typical product would
                indicate supports for 10 and 40g with different
                modulation, so lets say 2 sub-board type, which makes 6
                regen type); The introduction of OTU4 and later OTU5
                will increase the types of regenerator supported.</span><span
                lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
                rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';"
                lang="EN-US">The size expansion is indeed related to the
                number of regenerator type, resource blocks contain
                connectivity, oeo-feature and how the blocks are
                grouped.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
                rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';"
                lang="EN-US">The other point would indeed clarify the
                document, the setup of resource pools/blocks is shown in
                Figure 1, a resource pool aggregating Â the connectivity
                for several resource blocks.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
                rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';"
                lang="EN-US">Best regards.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <div style="border-right: medium none; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm
              4pt; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt;
              border-style: none none none solid; border-color:
              -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color
              -moz-use-text-color windowtext;">
              <div>
                <div style="border-right: medium none; padding: 3pt 0cm
                  0cm; border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style:
                  solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223)
                  -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color;">
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;
                        color: windowtext; font-family:
                        'Tahoma','sans-serif';" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
                      style="font-size: 10pt; color: windowtext;
                      font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif';" lang="EN-US">
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a>
                      [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                      <b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Greg Bernstein<br>
                      <b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 13, 2011 8:20 PM<br>
                      <b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:ccamp@ietf.org">ccamp@ietf.org</a><br>
                      <b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version
                      Notification
                      fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt</span><span
                      lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
              </div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Hi Pierre and
                  draft authors, can you provide:<br>
                  (1) Diagrams of the example switches particularly with
                  respect to the structure of the resource pools/blocks.<br>
                  (2) Explanation of why so many different types (not
                  number) of regenerators in an optical node. You site 5
                  different types for a small node and 10 for a large
                  node. Can you point to a product family?Â  I would
                  think 0-1 types of regenerators for a small node and
                  at maybe 2 for a large node or nodes that deal with
                  long haul and metro types modulations.Â  <br>
                  (3) Can you provide the example encodings such as done
                  in the appendix of the encoding document so we can
                  understand where the expansion is taking place.<br>
                  <br>
                  It seems that the size expansions is directly related
                  to the number of regenerator types, but hard to tell
                  from this document.Â  Are there any other WSON
                  interested parties that have a need for so many
                  regenerator types?<br>
                  <br>
                  Cheers<br>
                  <br>
                  Greg B.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">--snip -- <br>
                <br>
                <o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <pre><span lang="EN-US">-- <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="EN-US">===================================================<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="EN-US">Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="EN-US"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></pre>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
===================================================
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237

</pre>
  </body>
</html>

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Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 15:55:14 +0000
From: Leeyoung <leeyoung@huawei.com>
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Cyril,

I think your example is a corner case, which is not typical case. We should not base this kind of highly theoretical corner case as the base case for your analysis. We are dealing with WSON switching enabled ROADM networks, not necessarily dealing with legacy DWDM system. Please also note that the typical WSON switching nodes are transparent nodes. Only some of the nodes may have Regen elements ---as I mentioned in the previous email, the operators try to minimize the use of Regen's due to its high cost.

Please see my other comment in-line.

Thanks.
Young


________________________________
From: Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:cyril.margaria@nsn.com]
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 3:26 AM
To: Leeyoung; ext Greg Bernstein; ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [CCAMP] TR: New Version Notificationfordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt

Hi Young Lee, Ccamper's,

Reducing the type of regenerator makes sense but  mixing regenerator type makes also sense, as you would try to avoid having only 40G-capable 3R when you can go for a cheaper 10G regenerator, depending on your demands.

  In Greenfield deployments single rate makes sense, in an existing networks having multi-rate (2) support with different electrical module may be less common but should still be supported.
   This kind of network would need 6 description for the processing capability alone.  The total number of resource description need to be higher, as in the info model  the description of a regenerator include the number of resource. Each time the connectivity imply a different number of regenerator are grouped together a separate ResourceBlockInfo should be used (Separating connectivity and regenerator setup would help here).

YOUNG>> Your point on "separating connectivity and regenerator setup would help here" is exactly the encoding principles of the current WG adopted encoding drafts.  Then I don't clearly understand what the Pierre's draft are trying to do.

Best case would see indeed 0-2 type of regenerator, intermediate actual deployments can see 6 types of regenerator, we also considered looking at possible evolutions, 10 being in our opinion a reasonable number.

I hope it could help you understand better what is considered in the draft. Those consideration will be more detailed in the next revision  of the draft.

Best Regards



From: ext Leeyoung [mailto:leeyoung@huawei.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 10:47 PM
To: Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Greg Bernstein; ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [CCAMP] TR: New Version Notificationfordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt

Hi Cyril,

I think your analysis below is very theoretical and a bit out of reality in WSON node configuration.

We are dealing with wavelength level so that OTUk level is transparent to WSON. In typical optical switch node configuration in WSON, we don't simply mix up all possible kinds of regenerators per each modulation type. It is true that we have many modulation types for each rate and the model should support all possibility. But this does not mean we have all "10 types" at the same time in a node design. As you know, regenerator is one of the most expensive WSON elements and having many types in a node is not economical and not realistic.

As far as my understanding of node design, we don't have such thing as you said in your email to support 10+ different types of regenerators in a node. In a typical commercially deployed WSON switching node, we have one rate (e.g., 10G or 40G, or possibly others) and one regenerator type for each rate. If we have multi-rate support, we may have two rates and thus two regenerators in a typical WSON switching node.

I would be interested in the node design diagram that supports 10+ different regenerators at the same time. I haven't seen such one myself yet.

Please also note that the WSON model has to support transparent node configuration, which we don't have "regen" element.

Best Regards,
Young



________________________________
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich)
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 2:36 AM
To: ext Greg Bernstein; ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version Notification fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt



Hi Greg, CCAMPers,

Regarding point (2), using one regen type per OTUk (k in [[1..4]]), and 2 type of laser module per reach makes already 8 type of oeo properties. Adding slightly different hw types (i.e old board with old modulation and a more recent with DP-QPSK) makes an easy 10 types for a big node.

Without going into product families this sounded reasonable (for instance a typical product would indicate supports for 10 and 40g with different modulation, so lets say 2 sub-board type, which makes 6 regen type); The introduction of OTU4 and later OTU5 will increase the types of regenerator supported.

The size expansion is indeed related to the number of regenerator type, resource blocks contain connectivity, oeo-feature and how the blocks are grouped.

The other point would indeed clarify the document, the setup of resource pools/blocks is shown in Figure 1, a resource pool aggregating  the connectivity for several resource blocks.

Best regards.



From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Greg Bernstein
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 8:20 PM
To: ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version Notification fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt

Hi Pierre and draft authors, can you provide:
(1) Diagrams of the example switches particularly with respect to the structure of the resource pools/blocks.
(2) Explanation of why so many different types (not number) of regenerators in an optical node. You site 5 different types for a small node and 10 for a large node. Can you point to a product family?  I would think 0-1 types of regenerators for a small node and at maybe 2 for a large node or nodes that deal with long haul and metro types modulations.
(3) Can you provide the example encodings such as done in the appendix of the encoding document so we can understand where the expansion is taking place.

It seems that the size expansions is directly related to the number of regenerator types, but hard to tell from this document.  Are there any other WSON interested parties that have a need for so many regenerator types?

Cheers

Greg B.

On 6/10/2011 7:19 AM, PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) wrote:

Hi Ccampers,



During Prague meeting I was asked to provide a draft detailing the solution we were presenting then concerning OSPF-TE extensions for Wavelength Switched Optical Networks (see point 10 of ccamp minutes).

Julien, Giovanni, Cyril and I have tackled this work of providing a complete description of the solution with commonalities and deltas from the existing solution held in the following drafts:

  - draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-11

  - draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-04

  - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-00

  - draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-11

  - draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-04



Feedback from the working group is welcome.



To trigger this feedback, this draft holds inside section 5 a numerical study on the amount of static and dynamic information to be flooded.

This study was conducted on various typical WSON nodes and compares the size of the LSAs between the two solutions.



Regards,



- Pierre





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===================================================

Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237



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<body bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"Section1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Cyril,
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">I think your example is a corner case,=
 which is not typical case. We should not base this kind of highly theoreti=
cal corner case as the
 base case for your analysis. We are dealing with WSON switching enabled RO=
ADM networks, not necessarily dealing with legacy DWDM system. Please also =
note that the typical WSON switching nodes are transparent nodes. Only some=
 of the nodes may have Regen elements
 ---as I mentioned in the previous email, the operators try to minimize the=
 use of Regen&#8217;s due to its high cost.
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Please see my other comment in-line.
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Thanks.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Young<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><font=
 size=3D"3" color=3D"black" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:12.0pt;color:windowtext">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center" tabindex=3D"-1">
</span></font></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Tahoma">=
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext;font-we=
ight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"=
Tahoma"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:windowtext">
<st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">Margaria, Cyril</st1:PersonName> (NSN - DE/Muni=
ch) [mailto:cyril.margaria@nsn.com]
<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Friday, June 17, 2011 =
3:26 AM<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> Leeyoung; ext Greg Berns=
tein; <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">
ccamp@ietf.org</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> RE: [CCAMP] TR: New=
 Version Notificationfordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt</span></fon=
t><font color=3D"black"><span style=3D"color:windowtext"><o:p></o:p></span>=
</font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" color=3D"black" face=3D"Times New R=
oman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" color=3D"black" face=3D"Times New R=
oman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id=
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!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
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!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
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!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1!1"=20
 style=3D'position:absolute;margin-left:0;margin-top:0;width:.05pt;height:.=
05pt;
 z-index:1;visibility:hidden'>
 <w:anchorlock/>
</v:shape><![endif]--></span></font><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=
=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F4=
97D">Hi
 Young Lee, Ccamper&#8217;s, <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">Reducing=
 the type of regenerator makes sense but &nbsp;mixing regenerator type make=
s also sense, as you would try to avoid having
 only 40G-capable 3R when you can go for a cheaper 10G regenerator, dependi=
ng on your demands.
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">&nbsp; I=
n
<st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=3D"on">Greenfield</st1:place></st1:Ci=
ty> deployments single rate makes sense, in an existing networks having mul=
ti-rate (2) support with different electrical module may be less common but=
 should still be supported. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;This kind of network would need 6 description for the processing =
capability alone. &nbsp;The total number of resource description
 need to be higher, as in the info model &nbsp;the description of a regener=
ator include the number of resource. Each time the connectivity imply a dif=
ferent number of regenerator are grouped together a separate ResourceBlockI=
nfo should be used (Separating connectivity
 and regenerator setup would help here).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><font size=3D"3" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold=
">YOUNG&gt;&gt; Your point on &#8220;separating connectivity and regenerato=
r setup would help here&#8221; is exactly the encoding principles
 of the current WG adopted encoding drafts.&nbsp; Then I don&#8217;t clearl=
y understand what the Pierre&#8217;s draft are trying to do. &nbsp;<o:p></o=
:p></span></font></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">Best cas=
e would see indeed 0-2 type of regenerator, intermediate actual deployments=
 can see 6 types of regenerator, we also considered
 looking at possible evolutions, 10 being in our opinion a reasonable numbe=
r.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">I hope i=
t could help you understand better what is considered in the draft. Those c=
onsideration will be more detailed in the
 next revision &nbsp;of the draft.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">Best Reg=
ards<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Tahoma">=
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext;font-we=
ight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"=
Tahoma"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:windowtext">
 ext Leeyoung [mailto:leeyoung@huawei.com] <br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, June 16, 201=
1 10:47 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"=
on">Margaria, Cyril</st1:PersonName> (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Greg Bernstein;
<st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">ccamp@ietf.org</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> RE: [CCAMP] TR: New=
 Version Notificationfordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt<o:p></o:p><=
/span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" color=3D"black" face=3D"Times New R=
oman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Hi Cyril,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">I think your analysis below is very th=
eoretical and a bit out of reality in WSON node configuration.
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">We are dealing with wavelength level s=
o that OTUk level is transparent to WSON. In typical optical switch node co=
nfiguration in WSON,
 we don&#8217;t simply mix up all possible kinds of regenerators per each m=
odulation type. It is true that we have many modulation types for each rate=
 and the model should support all possibility. But this does not mean we ha=
ve all &#8220;10 types&#8221; at the same time in
 a node design. As you know, regenerator is one of the most expensive WSON =
elements and having many types in a node is not economical and not realisti=
c.
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">As far as my understanding of node des=
ign, we don&#8217;t have such thing as you said in your email to support 10=
&#43; different types of regenerators
 in a node. In a typical commercially deployed WSON switching node, we have=
 one rate (e.g., 10G or 40G, or possibly others) and one regenerator type f=
or each rate. If we have multi-rate support, we may have two rates and thus=
 two regenerators in a typical WSON
 switching node. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">I would be interested in the node desi=
gn diagram that supports 10&#43; different regenerators at the same time. I=
 haven&#8217;t seen such one myself
 yet.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Please also note that the WSON model h=
as to support transparent node configuration, which we don&#8217;t have &#8=
220;regen&#8221; element.
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Best Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Young<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><font=
 size=3D"3" color=3D"black" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:12.0pt;color:windowtext">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></font></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Tahoma">=
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext;font-we=
ight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"=
Tahoma"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:windowtext">
 ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] <b><span style=3D"f=
ont-weight:bold">On Behalf Of
</span></b><st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">Margaria, Cyril</st1:PersonName> (NS=
N - DE/Munich)<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, June 15, 20=
11 2:36 AM<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> ext Greg Bernstein; <st1=
:PersonName w:st=3D"on">
ccamp@ietf.org</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [CCAMP] TR: New=
 Version Notification fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt</span></fo=
nt><font color=3D"black"><span style=3D"color:windowtext"><o:p></o:p></span=
></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" color=3D"black" face=3D"Times New R=
oman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" color=3D"black" face=3D"Times New R=
oman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id=3D"_x=
0000_s1026" type=3D"#_x0000_t74"=20
 alt=3D"47E529CG097D5920@5BB2C5D2BED5405097@8h8=3D@@dM62793!!!!!!BIHO@]M627=
93!!!11111111110BCGBD3519Onsl`m/enu!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!80L8Z8;D8_M62793!!!!!!BIHO@]m62793!!!11111111110BCGBD3519110B=
CGBD3519!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!86G;&lt;8=3D?8`=
M62793!!!!!!BIHO@]M62793!!!11111111110B322C71D4110B322C71D4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!8;?;A8;?@@M62793!!!!!!BIHO@]m62793!!!1@=
6B1B5B110B322C71D4110B322C71D4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1!1"=20
 style=3D'position:absolute;margin-left:0;margin-top:0;width:.05pt;height:.=
05pt;
 z-index:2;visibility:hidden'>
 <w:anchorlock/>
</v:shape><![endif]--></span></font><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=
=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F4=
97D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<br style=3D"mso-ignore:vglayout" clear=3D"ALL">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">Hi Greg,=
 CCAMPers,
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">Regardin=
g point (2), using one regen type per OTUk (k in [[1..4]]), and 2 type of l=
aser module per reach makes already 8 type
 of oeo properties. Adding slightly different hw types (i.e old board with =
old modulation and a more recent with DP-QPSK) makes an easy 10 types for a=
 big node.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">Without =
going into product families this sounded reasonable (for instance a typical=
 product would indicate supports for 10 and
 40g with different modulation, so lets say 2 sub-board type, which makes 6=
 regen type); The introduction of OTU4 and later OTU5 will increase the typ=
es of regenerator supported.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">The size=
 expansion is indeed related to the number of regenerator type, resource bl=
ocks contain connectivity, oeo-feature and
 how the blocks are grouped.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">The othe=
r point would indeed clarify the document, the setup of resource pools/bloc=
ks is shown in Figure 1, a resource pool aggregating
 &nbsp;the connectivity for several resource blocks.<o:p></o:p></span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">Best reg=
ards.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Tahoma">=
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext;font-we=
ight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"=
Tahoma"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:windowtext">
 ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] <b><span style=3D"f=
ont-weight:bold">On Behalf Of
</span></b>ext Greg Bernstein<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Monday, June 13, 2011 =
8:20 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"=
on">ccamp@ietf.org</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [CCAMP] TR: New=
 Version Notification fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt<o:p></o:p>=
</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" color=3D"black" face=3D"Times New R=
oman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" color=3D"black" face=3D"Times New R=
oman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Hi
<st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=3D"on">Pierre</st1:place></st1:City> =
and draft authors, can you provide:<br>
(1) Diagrams of the example switches particularly with respect to the struc=
ture of the resource pools/blocks.<br>
(2) Explanation of why so many different types (not number) of regenerators=
 in an optical node. You site 5 different types for a small node and 10 for=
 a large node. Can you point to a product family?&nbsp; I would think 0-1 t=
ypes of regenerators for a small node
 and at maybe 2 for a large node or nodes that deal with long haul and metr=
o types modulations.&nbsp;
<br>
(3) Can you provide the example encodings such as done in the appendix of t=
he encoding document so we can understand where the expansion is taking pla=
ce.<br>
<br>
It seems that the size expansions is directly related to the number of rege=
nerator types, but hard to tell from this document.&nbsp; Are there any oth=
er WSON interested parties that have a need for so many regenerator types?<=
br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
<br>
Greg B.<br>
<br>
On 6/10/2011 7:19 AM, <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">PELOSO, PIERRE</st1:Perso=
nName> (PIERRE) wrote:
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">Hi Ccampers,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">During <st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=3D"on">Prague=
</st1:place></st1:City> meeting I was asked to provide a draft detailing th=
e solution we were presenting then concerning OSPF-TE extensions for Wavele=
ngth Switched Optical Networks (see point 10 of ccamp minutes).<o:p></o:p><=
/span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">Julien, Giovanni, Cyril and I have tackled this work of pr=
oviding a complete description of the solution with commonalities and delta=
s from the existing solution held in the following drafts:<o:p></o:p></span=
></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">&nbsp; - draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-11<o:p></o:p></span></f=
ont></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">&nbsp; - draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-04<o:p=
></o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">&nbsp; - draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-t=
e-00<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">&nbsp; - draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-11<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">&nbsp; - draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-0=
4<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">Feedback from the working group is welcome.<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">To trigger this feedback, this draft holds inside section =
5 a numerical study on the amount of static and dynamic information to be f=
looded.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">This study was conducted on various typical WSON nodes and=
 compares the size of the LSAs between the two solutions.<o:p></o:p></span>=
</font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">- <st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=3D"on">Pierre</st1=
:place></st1:City><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p>=
</span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">CCAMP mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt"><a href=3D"mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org">CCAMP@ietf.org</a><o:p><=
/o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font size=3D"3" colo=
r=3D"black" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">-- <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt">Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237<o:p></=
o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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From julien.meuric@orange-ftgroup.com  Fri Jun 17 09:20:43 2011
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version Notificationfordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt
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Hi Young.

You are right on one thing: operators try to minimize costs. This is 
exactly why ROADMs are first deployed with 10 Gb/s wavelengths, 40 Gb/s 
when transponders become cost-efficient enough, and then 100 Gb/s, which 
will likely become cost-efficient later... Obviously, minimizing cost 
mean deploying over existing things, not replacing; therefore we end up 
with many types of regenerators, due to the various bit-rates and 
modulation format existing out there.

I personally believe that a few-year-old long haul network will end up 
beyond Cyril's "reasonable figures" quite easily.

Regards,

Julien


Le 17/06/2011 17:55, Leeyoung a écrit :
>
>  Cyril,
>
>
>
>  I think your example is a corner case, which is not typical case. We
>  should not base this kind of highly theoretical corner case as the
>  base case for your analysis. We are dealing with WSON switching
>  enabled ROADM networks, not necessarily dealing with legacy DWDM
>  system. Please also note that the typical WSON switching nodes are
>  transparent nodes. Only some of the nodes may have Regen elements
>  ---as I mentioned in the previous email, the operators try to
>  minimize the use of Regen’s due to its high cost.
>
>
>
>  Please see my other comment in-line.
>
>
>
>  Thanks.
>
>  Young
>
>
>
>
>
>  -------------------------
>
>  *From:*Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich)
>  [mailto:cyril.margaria@nsn.com] **
>
>
>
>  Hi Young Lee, Ccamper’s,
>
>
>
>  Reducing the type of regenerator makes sense but mixing regenerator
>  type makes also sense, as you would try to avoid having only
>  40G-capable 3R when you can go for a cheaper 10G regenerator,
>  depending on your demands.
>
>
>
>  In Greenfield deployments single rate makes sense, in an existing
>  networks having multi-rate (2) support with different electrical
>  module may be less common but should still be supported.
>
>  This kind of network would need 6 description for the processing
>  capability alone. The total number of resource description need to
>  be higher, as in the info model the description of a regenerator
>  include the number of resource. Each time the connectivity imply a
>  different number of regenerator are grouped together a separate
>  ResourceBlockInfo should be used (Separating connectivity and
>  regenerator setup would help here).
>
>
>
>  *YOUNG>> Your point on “separating connectivity and regenerator setup
>  would help here” is exactly the encoding principles of the current WG
>  adopted encoding drafts. Then I don’t clearly understand what the
>  Pierre’s draft are trying to do. *
>
>
>
>  Best case would see indeed 0-2 type of regenerator, intermediate
>  actual deployments can see 6 types of regenerator, we also considered
>  looking at possible evolutions, 10 being in our opinion a reasonable
>  number.
>
>
>
>  I hope it could help you understand better what is considered in the
>  draft. Those consideration will be more detailed in the next revision
>  of the draft.
>
>
>
>  Best Regards
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  *From:*ext Leeyoung [mailto:leeyoung@huawei.com] **
>
>
>
>  Hi Cyril,
>
>
>
>  I think your analysis below is very theoretical and a bit out of
>  reality in WSON node configuration.
>
>
>
>  We are dealing with wavelength level so that OTUk level is
>  transparent to WSON. In typical optical switch node configuration in
>  WSON, we don’t simply mix up all possible kinds of regenerators per
>  each modulation type. It is true that we have many modulation types
>  for each rate and the model should support all possibility. But this
>  does not mean we have all “10 types” at the same time in a node
>  design. As you know, regenerator is one of the most expensive WSON
>  elements and having many types in a node is not economical and not
>  realistic.
>
>
>
>  As far as my understanding of node design, we don’t have such thing
>  as you said in your email to support 10+ different types of
>  regenerators in a node. In a typical commercially deployed WSON
>  switching node, we have one rate (e.g., 10G or 40G, or possibly
>  others) and one regenerator type for each rate. If we have multi-rate
>  support, we may have two rates and thus two regenerators in a typical
>  WSON switching node.
>
>
>
>  I would be interested in the node design diagram that supports 10+
>  different regenerators at the same time. I haven’t seen such one
>  myself yet.
>
>
>
>  Please also note that the WSON model has to support transparent node
>  configuration, which we don’t have “regen” element.
>
>
>
>  Best Regards,
>
>  Young
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  -------------------------
>
>  *From:*ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] *On
>  Behalf Of *Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich) **
>
>  Hi Greg, CCAMPers,
>
>
>
>  Regarding point (2), using one regen type per OTUk (k in [[1..4]]),
>  and 2 type of laser module per reach makes already 8 type of oeo
>  properties. Adding slightly different hw types (i.e old board with
>  old modulation and a more recent with DP-QPSK) makes an easy 10 types
>  for a big node.
>
>
>
>  Without going into product families this sounded reasonable (for
>  instance a typical product would indicate supports for 10 and 40g
>  with different modulation, so lets say 2 sub-board type, which makes
>  6 regen type); The introduction of OTU4 and later OTU5 will increase
>  the types of regenerator supported.
>
>
>
>  The size expansion is indeed related to the number of regenerator
>  type, resource blocks contain connectivity, oeo-feature and how the
>  blocks are grouped.
>
>
>
>  The other point would indeed clarify the document, the setup of
>  resource pools/blocks is shown in Figure 1, a resource pool
>  aggregating the connectivity for several resource blocks.
>
>
>
>  Best regards.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  *From:*ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] *On
>  Behalf Of *ext Greg Bernstein **
>
>
>
>  Hi Pierre and draft authors, can you provide: (1) Diagrams of the
>  example switches particularly with respect to the structure of the
>  resource pools/blocks. (2) Explanation of why so many different types
>  (not number) of regenerators in an optical node. You site 5 different
>  types for a small node and 10 for a large node. Can you point to a
>  product family? I would think 0-1 types of regenerators for a small
>  node and at maybe 2 for a large node or nodes that deal with long
>  haul and metro types modulations. (3) Can you provide the example
>  encodings such as done in the appendix of the encoding document so we
>  can understand where the expansion is taking place.
>
>  It seems that the size expansions is directly related to the number
>  of regenerator types, but hard to tell from this document. Are there
>  any other WSON interested parties that have a need for so many
>  regenerator types?
>
>  Cheers
>
>  Greg B.
>
>  On 6/10/2011 7:19 AM, PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) wrote:
>
>  Hi Ccampers,
>
>  During Prague meeting I was asked to provide a draft detailing the
>  solution we were presenting then concerning OSPF-TE extensions for
>  Wavelength Switched Optical Networks (see point 10 of ccamp
>  minutes). Julien, Giovanni, Cyril and I have tackled this work of
>  providing a complete description of the solution with commonalities
>  and deltas from the existing solution held in the following drafts: -
>  draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-11 -
>  draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-04 -
>  draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-00 -
>  draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-11 -
>  draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-04
>
>  Feedback from the working group is welcome.
>
>  To trigger this feedback, this draft holds inside section 5 a
>  numerical study on the amount of static and dynamic information to be
>  flooded. This study was conducted on various typical WSON nodes and
>  compares the size of the LSAs between the two solutions.
>
>  Regards,
>
>  - Pierre
>
>
>  _______________________________________________ CCAMP mailing list
>  CCAMP@ietf.org <mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org>
>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>
>
>
>  -- =================================================== Dr Greg
>  Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237
>
>
>
>  _______________________________________________ CCAMP mailing list
>  CCAMP@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

From gregb@grotto-networking.com  Fri Jun 17 10:53:09 2011
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Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 10:52:59 -0700
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version	Notificationfordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt
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This issue can be readily resolved if the  diagrams and current WG draft 
sub-TLV encoding use in sections 5.2 and 5.3 of peloso-3 is given.  
There are four authors of this document, hence somebody must have a 
diagram of the switch and sub-TLV encodings that generated the numbers 
used in the evaluation. If you can furnish that then I will show either
(a) That the system of interest can be efficiently encoded with the 
current WG drafts and current GMPLS/OSPF mechanisms.
or
(b) That a minimalistic extension to the WSON encoding draft along with 
current GMPLS/OSPF extensions can be used to efficiently encode this system.

Note that the purpose of this exercise is to solve a potential problem 
with the WSON WG drafts and if enough folks are concerned about a 
potential problem we can figure out how to solve it.  The purpose is not 
a general re-write of these drafts. Note that during the development of 
the WSON WG drafts we shared all our test cases freely via my website, 
informal presentations at previous IETF meetings, and in papers 
published in journals. I don't seen any reason for the authors of 
peloso-3 to keep their test cases secret when asking for changes to 
CCAMP WG drafts to accommodate it.

Greg

On 6/17/2011 9:20 AM, Julien Meuric wrote:
> Hi Young.
>
> You are right on one thing: operators try to minimize costs. This is 
> exactly why ROADMs are first deployed with 10 Gb/s wavelengths, 40 
> Gb/s when transponders become cost-efficient enough, and then 100 
> Gb/s, which will likely become cost-efficient later... Obviously, 
> minimizing cost mean deploying over existing things, not replacing; 
> therefore we end up with many types of regenerators, due to the 
> various bit-rates and modulation format existing out there.
>
> I personally believe that a few-year-old long haul network will end up 
> beyond Cyril's "reasonable figures" quite easily.
>
> Regards,
>
> Julien
>
>
> Le 17/06/2011 17:55, Leeyoung a écrit :
>>
>>  Cyril,
>>
>>
>>
>>  I think your example is a corner case, which is not typical case. We
>>  should not base this kind of highly theoretical corner case as the
>>  base case for your analysis. We are dealing with WSON switching
>>  enabled ROADM networks, not necessarily dealing with legacy DWDM
>>  system. Please also note that the typical WSON switching nodes are
>>  transparent nodes. Only some of the nodes may have Regen elements
>>  ---as I mentioned in the previous email, the operators try to
>>  minimize the use of Regen’s due to its high cost.
>>
>>
>>
>>  Please see my other comment in-line.
>>
>>
>>
>>  Thanks.
>>
>>  Young
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  -------------------------
>>
>>  *From:*Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich)
>>  [mailto:cyril.margaria@nsn.com] **
>>
>>
>>
>>  Hi Young Lee, Ccamper’s,
>>
>>
>>
>>  Reducing the type of regenerator makes sense but mixing regenerator
>>  type makes also sense, as you would try to avoid having only
>>  40G-capable 3R when you can go for a cheaper 10G regenerator,
>>  depending on your demands.
>>
>>
>>
>>  In Greenfield deployments single rate makes sense, in an existing
>>  networks having multi-rate (2) support with different electrical
>>  module may be less common but should still be supported.
>>
>>  This kind of network would need 6 description for the processing
>>  capability alone. The total number of resource description need to
>>  be higher, as in the info model the description of a regenerator
>>  include the number of resource. Each time the connectivity imply a
>>  different number of regenerator are grouped together a separate
>>  ResourceBlockInfo should be used (Separating connectivity and
>>  regenerator setup would help here).
>>
>>
>>
>>  *YOUNG>> Your point on “separating connectivity and regenerator setup
>>  would help here” is exactly the encoding principles of the current WG
>>  adopted encoding drafts. Then I don’t clearly understand what the
>>  Pierre’s draft are trying to do. *
>>
>>
>>
>>  Best case would see indeed 0-2 type of regenerator, intermediate
>>  actual deployments can see 6 types of regenerator, we also considered
>>  looking at possible evolutions, 10 being in our opinion a reasonable
>>  number.
>>
>>
>>
>>  I hope it could help you understand better what is considered in the
>>  draft. Those consideration will be more detailed in the next revision
>>  of the draft.
>>
>>
>>
>>  Best Regards
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  *From:*ext Leeyoung [mailto:leeyoung@huawei.com] **
>>
>>
>>
>>  Hi Cyril,
>>
>>
>>
>>  I think your analysis below is very theoretical and a bit out of
>>  reality in WSON node configuration.
>>
>>
>>
>>  We are dealing with wavelength level so that OTUk level is
>>  transparent to WSON. In typical optical switch node configuration in
>>  WSON, we don’t simply mix up all possible kinds of regenerators per
>>  each modulation type. It is true that we have many modulation types
>>  for each rate and the model should support all possibility. But this
>>  does not mean we have all “10 types” at the same time in a node
>>  design. As you know, regenerator is one of the most expensive WSON
>>  elements and having many types in a node is not economical and not
>>  realistic.
>>
>>
>>
>>  As far as my understanding of node design, we don’t have such thing
>>  as you said in your email to support 10+ different types of
>>  regenerators in a node. In a typical commercially deployed WSON
>>  switching node, we have one rate (e.g., 10G or 40G, or possibly
>>  others) and one regenerator type for each rate. If we have multi-rate
>>  support, we may have two rates and thus two regenerators in a typical
>>  WSON switching node.
>>
>>
>>
>>  I would be interested in the node design diagram that supports 10+
>>  different regenerators at the same time. I haven’t seen such one
>>  myself yet.
>>
>>
>>
>>  Please also note that the WSON model has to support transparent node
>>  configuration, which we don’t have “regen” element.
>>
>>
>>
>>  Best Regards,
>>
>>  Young
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  -------------------------
>>
>>  *From:*ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] *On
>>  Behalf Of *Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich) **
>>
>>  Hi Greg, CCAMPers,
>>
>>
>>
>>  Regarding point (2), using one regen type per OTUk (k in [[1..4]]),
>>  and 2 type of laser module per reach makes already 8 type of oeo
>>  properties. Adding slightly different hw types (i.e old board with
>>  old modulation and a more recent with DP-QPSK) makes an easy 10 types
>>  for a big node.
>>
>>
>>
>>  Without going into product families this sounded reasonable (for
>>  instance a typical product would indicate supports for 10 and 40g
>>  with different modulation, so lets say 2 sub-board type, which makes
>>  6 regen type); The introduction of OTU4 and later OTU5 will increase
>>  the types of regenerator supported.
>>
>>
>>
>>  The size expansion is indeed related to the number of regenerator
>>  type, resource blocks contain connectivity, oeo-feature and how the
>>  blocks are grouped.
>>
>>
>>
>>  The other point would indeed clarify the document, the setup of
>>  resource pools/blocks is shown in Figure 1, a resource pool
>>  aggregating the connectivity for several resource blocks.
>>
>>
>>
>>  Best regards.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  *From:*ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] *On
>>  Behalf Of *ext Greg Bernstein **
>>
>>
>>
>>  Hi Pierre and draft authors, can you provide: (1) Diagrams of the
>>  example switches particularly with respect to the structure of the
>>  resource pools/blocks. (2) Explanation of why so many different types
>>  (not number) of regenerators in an optical node. You site 5 different
>>  types for a small node and 10 for a large node. Can you point to a
>>  product family? I would think 0-1 types of regenerators for a small
>>  node and at maybe 2 for a large node or nodes that deal with long
>>  haul and metro types modulations. (3) Can you provide the example
>>  encodings such as done in the appendix of the encoding document so we
>>  can understand where the expansion is taking place.
>>
>>  It seems that the size expansions is directly related to the number
>>  of regenerator types, but hard to tell from this document. Are there
>>  any other WSON interested parties that have a need for so many
>>  regenerator types?
>>
>>  Cheers
>>
>>  Greg B.
>>
>>  On 6/10/2011 7:19 AM, PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) wrote:
>>
>>  Hi Ccampers,
>>
>>  During Prague meeting I was asked to provide a draft detailing the
>>  solution we were presenting then concerning OSPF-TE extensions for
>>  Wavelength Switched Optical Networks (see point 10 of ccamp
>>  minutes). Julien, Giovanni, Cyril and I have tackled this work of
>>  providing a complete description of the solution with commonalities
>>  and deltas from the existing solution held in the following drafts: -
>>  draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-11 -
>>  draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-04 -
>>  draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-00 -
>>  draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-11 -
>>  draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-04
>>
>>  Feedback from the working group is welcome.
>>
>>  To trigger this feedback, this draft holds inside section 5 a
>>  numerical study on the amount of static and dynamic information to be
>>  flooded. This study was conducted on various typical WSON nodes and
>>  compares the size of the LSAs between the two solutions.
>>
>>  Regards,
>>
>>  - Pierre
>>
>>
>>  _______________________________________________ CCAMP mailing list
>>  CCAMP@ietf.org <mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org>
>>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>
>>
>>
>>  -- =================================================== Dr Greg
>>  Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237
>>
>>
>>
>>  _______________________________________________ CCAMP mailing list
>>  CCAMP@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>
>


-- 
===================================================
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237



From Sirish.Vadloori@ecitele.com  Fri Jun 17 22:25:28 2011
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From: Sirish Vadloori <Sirish.Vadloori@ecitele.com>
To: "daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com" <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 08:25:15 +0300
Thread-Topic: Data Link FSM for OTN.
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Subject: [CCAMP] Data Link FSM for OTN.
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Hello Daniele,



This is about the "Link Verification" procedure for OTN specific ports.



According to RFC 4204's Passive LMP Data Link FSM - We move from "PasvTest"=
 state to "Up/Free" state upon the trigger of an event 6 :evTestRcv: Test me=
ssage was received over the data port and a TestStatusSuccess message is tra=
nsmitted over the control channel.



This seems to be incomplete when it comes to testing an OTN specific port.



For Example:



1. We have two routers (R1 & R2) connected using an ODU1 port (Data Link) -=
 which could be a combination of two ODU0s. One ODU0 could be from R1 to R2.=
 Another one from R2 to R1. The combination of these two ODU0s will make one=
 bi directional ODU1 data link.

2. Router R1 initiated the verification procedure for the data link ODU1 (Th=
e first ODU0 from R1 to R2 in fact). Moves the Data Link FSM to "Test" state=
.

3. Router R2 will be ready by acknowledging the verification procedure and m=
oves the Data Link FSM to "PasvTest" state.

4. After the successful completion of the test procedure from R1 to R2, we r=
eally can't move the Data Link FSM state at router R2 from "PasvTest" state=
 to "Up/Free" state. As the test procedure from R2 to R1 is not done yet (Th=
e second ODU0 from R2 to R1).

5. I think we need a modified data link FSM for OTN specific ports which cou=
ld handle a case like this. We may need an another intermediate state betwee=
n "PasvTest" and "Up/Free" states which could handle the testing procedure f=
rom R2 to R1 too and then upon the successful completion of the testing proc=
edure - we could move the data link FSM state at router R2 to "Up/Free".



Please let me know your opinion on this and in case if my understanding is n=
ot correct, please correct me.



Best Regards,

-Sirish



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<div class=3DSection1><pre><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Hell=
o Daniele,<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre><s=
pan
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>This is about the &#8220;Link Verific=
ation&#8221; procedure for OTN specific ports.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><=
span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre><s=
pan
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>According to RFC 4204&#8217;s Passive LMP Data Li=
nk FSM &#8211; We move from &#8220;PasvTest&#8221; state to &#8220;Up/Free&#=
8221; state upon the trigger of an event 6 <span
style=3D'color:black'>:evTestRcv: Test message was received over the data po=
rt and a TestStatusSuccess message is transmitted over the control channel.<=
o:p></o:p></span></span></pre><pre><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre><s=
pan
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>This seems to be incomplete when it c=
omes to testing an OTN specific port.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre><s=
pan
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>For Example: <o:p></o:p></span></pre>=
<pre><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if=
 !supportLists]><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.<sp=
an
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>We have two routers (R1 &amp; R2) con=
nected using an ODU1 port (Data Link) &#8211; which could be a combination o=
f two ODU0s. One ODU0 could be from R1 to R2. Another one from R2 to R1. The=
 combination of these two ODU0s will make one bi directional ODU1 data link.=
<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if=
 !supportLists]><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2.<sp=
an
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Router R1 initiated the verification=
 procedure for the data link ODU1 (The first ODU0 from R1 to R2 in fact). Mo=
ves the Data Link FSM to &#8220;Test&#8221; state.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><p=
re
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if=
 !supportLists]><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>3.<sp=
an
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Router R2 will be ready by acknowledg=
ing the verification procedure and moves the Data Link FSM to &#8220;PasvTes=
t&#8221; state.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if=
 !supportLists]><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>4.<sp=
an
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>After the successful completion of th=
e test procedure from R1 to R2, we really can&#8217;t move the Data Link FSM=
 state at router R2 from &#8220;PasvTest&#8221; state to &#8220;Up/Free&#822=
1; state. As the test procedure from R2 to R1 is not done yet (The second OD=
U0 from R2 to R1).<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if=
 !supportLists]><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>5.<sp=
an
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>I think we need a modified data link=
 FSM for OTN specific ports which could handle a case like this. We may need=
 an another intermediate state between &#8220;PasvTest&#8221; and &#8220;Up/=
Free&#8221; states which could handle the testing procedure from R2 to R1 to=
o and then upon the successful completion of the testing procedure &#8211; w=
e could move the data link FSM state at router R2 to &#8220;Up/Free&#8221;.<=
o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre><s=
pan
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Please let me know your opinion on th=
is and in case if my understanding is not correct, please correct me.<o:p></=
o:p></span></pre><pre><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre><s=
pan
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Best Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>=
<pre><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>-Sirish<o:p></o:p></span></pre>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

</div>

<p>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informat=
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From julien.meuric@orange-ftgroup.com  Mon Jun 20 02:57:30 2011
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Data Link FSM for OTN.
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Hi Sirish.

 From my understanding, what you describe rather looks like a router 
interconnection using 2 unidirectional ODU0 and I do not see what is 
missing in RFC 4204 procedures.
What is more, even if it might technically happen, I do not see 
operational networks actually provisioning bidirectional services over 
different unidirectional containers built on different timeslots. Why 
not using the same ODU0 in both directions? What about the full ODU1?

Cheers,

Julien


Le 18/06/2011 07:25, Sirish Vadloori a écrit :
> Hello Daniele,
>   
> This is about the “Link Verification” procedure for OTN specific ports.
>   
> According to RFC 4204’s Passive LMP Data Link FSM – We move from “PasvTest” state to “Up/Free” state upon the trigger of an event 6:evTestRcv: Test message was received over the data port and a TestStatusSuccess message is transmitted over the control channel.
>   
> This seems to be incomplete when it comes to testing an OTN specific port.
>   
> For Example:
>   
> 1.  We have two routers (R1&  R2) connected using an ODU1 port (Data Link) – which could be a combination of two ODU0s. One ODU0 could be from R1 to R2. Another one from R2 to R1. The combination of these two ODU0s will make one bi directional ODU1 data link.
> 2.  Router R1 initiated the verification procedure for the data link ODU1 (The first ODU0 from R1 to R2 in fact). Moves the Data Link FSM to “Test” state.
> 3.  Router R2 will be ready by acknowledging the verification procedure and moves the Data Link FSM to “PasvTest” state.
> 4.  After the successful completion of the test procedure from R1 to R2, we really can’t move the Data Link FSM state at router R2 from “PasvTest” state to “Up/Free” state. As the test procedure from R2 to R1 is not done yet (The second ODU0 from R2 to R1).
> 5.  I think we need a modified data link FSM for OTN specific ports which could handle a case like this. We may need an another intermediate state between “PasvTest” and “Up/Free” states which could handle the testing procedure from R2 to R1 too and then upon the successful completion of the testing procedure – we could move the data link FSM state at router R2 to “Up/Free”.
>   
> Please let me know your opinion on this and in case if my understanding is not correct, please correct me.
>   
> Best Regards,
> -Sirish
>
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains 
> information which is CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI 
> Telecom. If you have received this transmission in error, please 
> inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then delete the original and 
> all copies thereof.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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From Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com  Mon Jun 20 03:05:13 2011
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From: Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>
To: Julien Meuric <julien.meuric@orange-ftgroup.com>, Sirish Vadloori <Sirish.Vadloori@ecitele.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 06:05:08 -0400
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Data Link FSM for OTN.
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Cc: "ccamp@ietf.org" <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Data Link FSM for OTN.
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Julien,

I think the question is more at the OTU level. If an OTU port (data link) is=
 able to receive and correctly process the Test message, the current RFC say=
s that it can move from PasvTest to Up state and announce itself to rest of=
 the routers as available for carrying LSPs. However, isn't it required for=
 the same port to go through an ActiveTest state as well?

Thanks,
Sidd

-----Original Message-----
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ju=
lien Meuric
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 3:27 PM
To: Sirish Vadloori
Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Data Link FSM for OTN.

Hi Sirish.

 From my understanding, what you describe rather looks like a router 
interconnection using 2 unidirectional ODU0 and I do not see what is 
missing in RFC 4204 procedures.
What is more, even if it might technically happen, I do not see 
operational networks actually provisioning bidirectional services over 
different unidirectional containers built on different timeslots. Why 
not using the same ODU0 in both directions? What about the full ODU1?

Cheers,

Julien


Le 18/06/2011 07:25, Sirish Vadloori a =E9crit :
> Hello Daniele,
>   
> This is about the "Link Verification" procedure for OTN specific ports.
>   
> According to RFC 4204's Passive LMP Data Link FSM - We move from "PasvTest=
" state to "Up/Free" state upon the trigger of an event 6:evTestRcv: Test me=
ssage was received over the data port and a TestStatusSuccess message is tra=
nsmitted over the control channel.
>   
> This seems to be incomplete when it comes to testing an OTN specific port.
>   
> For Example:
>   
> 1.  We have two routers (R1&  R2) connected using an ODU1 port (Data Link)=
 - which could be a combination of two ODU0s. One ODU0 could be from R1 to R=
2. Another one from R2 to R1. The combination of these two ODU0s will make o=
ne bi directional ODU1 data link.
> 2.  Router R1 initiated the verification procedure for the data link ODU1=
 (The first ODU0 from R1 to R2 in fact). Moves the Data Link FSM to "Test" s=
tate.
> 3.  Router R2 will be ready by acknowledging the verification procedure an=
d moves the Data Link FSM to "PasvTest" state.
> 4.  After the successful completion of the test procedure from R1 to R2, w=
e really can't move the Data Link FSM state at router R2 from "PasvTest" sta=
te to "Up/Free" state. As the test procedure from R2 to R1 is not done yet (=
The second ODU0 from R2 to R1).
> 5.  I think we need a modified data link FSM for OTN specific ports which=
 could handle a case like this. We may need an another intermediate state be=
tween "PasvTest" and "Up/Free" states which could handle the testing procedu=
re from R2 to R1 too and then upon the successful completion of the testing=
 procedure - we could move the data link FSM state at router R2 to "Up/Free"=
.
>   
> Please let me know your opinion on this and in case if my understanding is=
 not correct, please correct me.
>   
> Best Regards,
> -Sirish
>
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains 
> information which is CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI 
> Telecom. If you have received this transmission in error, please 
> inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then delete the original and 
> all copies thereof.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
_______________________________________________
CCAMP mailing list
CCAMP@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp


This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informat=
ion which is CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If yo=
u have received this transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phon=
e or fax, and then delete the original and all copies thereof.


From julien.meuric@orange-ftgroup.com  Mon Jun 20 09:30:06 2011
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Cc: "ccamp@ietf.org" <ccamp@ietf.org>, Sirish Vadloori <Sirish.Vadloori@ecitele.com>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Data Link FSM for OTN.
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Hi Sidd.

 From the LMP perspective, links are unidirectional (like within IGPs). 
Quoting section 5 of RFC 4204:
"Data links are tested in the transmit direction because they are 
unidirectional".

In other words, the state of one direction may be different from the 
state of the other direction. When a direction is (has been) tested, it 
is up to the receiving end node to start a test procedure on the other 
direction.

Regards,

Julien


Le 20/06/2011 12:05, Sidd Aanand a écrit :
> Julien,
>
> I think the question is more at the OTU level. If an OTU port (data link) is able to receive and correctly process the Test message, the current RFC says that it can move from PasvTest to Up state and announce itself to rest of the routers as available for carrying LSPs. However, isn't it required for the same port to go through an ActiveTest state as well?
>
> Thanks,
> Sidd
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Julien Meuric
>
> Hi Sirish.
>
>   From my understanding, what you describe rather looks like a router
> interconnection using 2 unidirectional ODU0 and I do not see what is
> missing in RFC 4204 procedures.
> What is more, even if it might technically happen, I do not see
> operational networks actually provisioning bidirectional services over
> different unidirectional containers built on different timeslots. Why
> not using the same ODU0 in both directions? What about the full ODU1?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Julien
>
>
> Le 18/06/2011 07:25, Sirish Vadloori a écrit :
>> Hello Daniele,
>>
>> This is about the "Link Verification" procedure for OTN specific ports.
>>
>> According to RFC 4204's Passive LMP Data Link FSM - We move from "PasvTest" state to "Up/Free" state upon the trigger of an event 6:evTestRcv: Test message was received over the data port and a TestStatusSuccess message is transmitted over the control channel.
>>
>> This seems to be incomplete when it comes to testing an OTN specific port.
>>
>> For Example:
>>
>> 1.  We have two routers (R1&   R2) connected using an ODU1 port (Data Link) - which could be a combination of two ODU0s. One ODU0 could be from R1 to R2. Another one from R2 to R1. The combination of these two ODU0s will make one bi directional ODU1 data link.
>> 2.  Router R1 initiated the verification procedure for the data link ODU1 (The first ODU0 from R1 to R2 in fact). Moves the Data Link FSM to "Test" state.
>> 3.  Router R2 will be ready by acknowledging the verification procedure and moves the Data Link FSM to "PasvTest" state.
>> 4.  After the successful completion of the test procedure from R1 to R2, we really can't move the Data Link FSM state at router R2 from "PasvTest" state to "Up/Free" state. As the test procedure from R2 to R1 is not done yet (The second ODU0 from R2 to R1).
>> 5.  I think we need a modified data link FSM for OTN specific ports which could handle a case like this. We may need an another intermediate state between "PasvTest" and "Up/Free" states which could handle the testing procedure from R2 to R1 too and then upon the successful completion of the testing procedure - we could move the data link FSM state at router R2 to "Up/Free".
>>
>> Please let me know your opinion on this and in case if my understanding is not correct, please correct me.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> -Sirish
>>
>> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
>> information which is CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI
>> Telecom. If you have received this transmission in error, please
>> inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then delete the original and
>> all copies thereof.
>>
>>
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From acee.lindem@ericsson.com  Tue Jun 21 09:49:54 2011
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From: Acee Lindem <acee.lindem@ericsson.com>
To: Spencer Giacalone <spencer.giacalone@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 12:49:49 -0400
Thread-Topic: [OSPF] draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01
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Hi Spencer (CCAMP copied as well),

Here is a link for everyone's convenience:=20

http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01.txt =20

At IETF 80, there were questions about overlap with other CCAMP drafts cont=
aining interface delay metrics and proposals for new TE sub-TLVs. Have you =
or your co-authors, done looked at how your draft is positioned versus thes=
e other drafts? While these applications have differing goals, the CCAMP/OS=
PF chairs requested that this analysis be done.=20

http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-wang-ccamp-latency-te-metric-03.txt

We would like to avoid having exactly the same information advertised in tw=
o different link Sub-TLVs. I'd hope we could agree on common units.=20

Thanks,
Acee

On Jun 20, 2011, at 4:30 PM, Spencer Giacalone wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>=20
> As you may have noticed, another version of the OSPF TE Express Path
> draft has been posted. We made a number of changes based on feedback
> from IETF 80. We invite your comments and suggestions. The main
> changes include:
>=20
> -We have consolidated some sub-TLVs for efficiency. There are no
> longer nominal and anomalous sub-TLVs for delay and loss. The
> functionality for signaling steady state verses abnormal performance
> for these parameters have been moved into two sub-TLVs (where we used
> to have four).
>=20
> -In order to advertise both normal and abnormal network performance
> state in consolidated sub-TLVs, a bit, called the anomalous (A) but
> has been added to certain sub-TLVs. The A bit is set when the measured
> value of a parameter exceeds a configured maximum threshold. The A bit
> is cleared when the measured value falls below its configured reuse
> threshold. If the A bit is clear, the sub-TLV represents steady state
> link performance.
>=20
> -We changed the encodings of certain variables from floating point to
> fixed point. This change permits the addition of the A bit (when
> necessary), it allows bit-space reservations to be made, and it
> permits a common TLV format across the bulk of the TLVs in the draft.
> In addition, the new encodings address concerns about granularity and
> interoperability.
>=20
> -We added sub-TLVs for Residual Bandwidth and Available Bandwidth.
> Residual bandwidth is defined as the Maximum Bandwidth [RFC3630] minus
> the bandwidth currently allocated to RSVP-TE LSPs. Available bandwidth
> is defined to be residual bandwidth minus the measured bandwidth used
> for the actual forwarding of non-RSVP-TE LSP packets.
>=20
> -Various other modifications were made across the draft. These
> include, but are not limited to, the abstract, the introduction, the
> thresholding specifications, and a number of field descriptions.
>=20
> -Last, but certainly not least, Stefano Providi has joined the draft
>=20
> We look forward to hearing your comments and concerns.
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> Spencer, Alia, Dave, John, Stefano
> _______________________________________________
> OSPF mailing list
> OSPF@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf


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From: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [OSPF] draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01
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Hi Acee,

John Drake and I did take a look at the draft mentioned in CCAMP.  It
had a large number of requirements and extensions to
a number of different protocols.  There is one sub-TLV (latency) that
appears the same - but the expectations
as to averaging vs. instantaneous were different.

The OSPF TE Express Path work is fairly self-contained and doesn't
specify in exact detail how the information
for the sub-TLVs is measured or obtained.  I think it could be used
for multiple purposes.

Alia

On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 12:49 PM, Acee Lindem <acee.lindem@ericsson.com> wr=
ote:
> Hi Spencer (CCAMP copied as well),
>
> Here is a link for everyone's convenience:
>
> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01.txt
>
> At IETF 80, there were questions about overlap with other CCAMP drafts co=
ntaining interface delay metrics and proposals for new TE sub-TLVs. Have yo=
u or your co-authors, done looked at how your draft is positioned versus th=
ese other drafts? While these applications have differing goals, the CCAMP/=
OSPF chairs requested that this analysis be done.
>
> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-wang-ccamp-latency-te-metric-03.txt
>
> We would like to avoid having exactly the same information advertised in =
two different link Sub-TLVs. I'd hope we could agree on common units.
>
> Thanks,
> Acee
>
> On Jun 20, 2011, at 4:30 PM, Spencer Giacalone wrote:
>
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> As you may have noticed, another version of the OSPF TE Express Path
>> draft has been posted. We made a number of changes based on feedback
>> from IETF 80. We invite your comments and suggestions. The main
>> changes include:
>>
>> -We have consolidated some sub-TLVs for efficiency. There are no
>> longer nominal and anomalous sub-TLVs for delay and loss. The
>> functionality for signaling steady state verses abnormal performance
>> for these parameters have been moved into two sub-TLVs (where we used
>> to have four).
>>
>> -In order to advertise both normal and abnormal network performance
>> state in consolidated sub-TLVs, a bit, called the anomalous (A) but
>> has been added to certain sub-TLVs. The A bit is set when the measured
>> value of a parameter exceeds a configured maximum threshold. The A bit
>> is cleared when the measured value falls below its configured reuse
>> threshold. If the A bit is clear, the sub-TLV represents steady state
>> link performance.
>>
>> -We changed the encodings of certain variables from floating point to
>> fixed point. This change permits the addition of the A bit (when
>> necessary), it allows bit-space reservations to be made, and it
>> permits a common TLV format across the bulk of the TLVs in the draft.
>> In addition, the new encodings address concerns about granularity and
>> interoperability.
>>
>> -We added sub-TLVs for Residual Bandwidth and Available Bandwidth.
>> Residual bandwidth is defined as the Maximum Bandwidth [RFC3630] minus
>> the bandwidth currently allocated to RSVP-TE LSPs. Available bandwidth
>> is defined to be residual bandwidth minus the measured bandwidth used
>> for the actual forwarding of non-RSVP-TE LSP packets.
>>
>> -Various other modifications were made across the draft. These
>> include, but are not limited to, the abstract, the introduction, the
>> thresholding specifications, and a number of field descriptions.
>>
>> -Last, but certainly not least, Stefano Providi has joined the draft
>>
>> We look forward to hearing your comments and concerns.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Spencer, Alia, Dave, John, Stefano
>> _______________________________________________
>> OSPF mailing list
>> OSPF@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
>
> _______________________________________________
> OSPF mailing list
> OSPF@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
>

From acee.lindem@ericsson.com  Tue Jun 21 18:06:54 2011
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From: Acee Lindem <acee.lindem@ericsson.com>
To: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 21:06:11 -0400
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [OSPF] draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01
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Hi Alia,
I guess I agree with Lou - heretofore, we've done TE requirements in the MP=
LS/CCAMP WGs and the TE encodings in the IGP WGs. I think we should give th=
e decision explicit consideration before we branch off and do TE for applic=
ation X independently. Additionally, if we do decide to split this off inde=
pendently, an E-mail to the list saying there is no overlap is not sufficie=
nt to move forward. At a minimum, I believe we need to:

   1. Explicitly document this alternate applicability and relationship to =
existing TE in the draft.
   2. Determine whether any sub-TLVs can be shared (my opinion was consiste=
nt with yours that there are not due to differences in requirements and mea=
surement).=20
   3. Assure the sub-TLVs are appropriately named to avoid confusion betwee=
n the latency applications.=20
 =20
Thanks,
Acee=20
On Jun 21, 2011, at 2:08 PM, Alia Atlas wrote:

> Hi Acee,
>=20
> John Drake and I did take a look at the draft mentioned in CCAMP.  It
> had a large number of requirements and extensions to
> a number of different protocols.  There is one sub-TLV (latency) that
> appears the same - but the expectations
> as to averaging vs. instantaneous were different.
>=20
> The OSPF TE Express Path work is fairly self-contained and doesn't
> specify in exact detail how the information
> for the sub-TLVs is measured or obtained.  I think it could be used
> for multiple purposes.
>=20
> Alia
>=20
> On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 12:49 PM, Acee Lindem <acee.lindem@ericsson.com> =
wrote:
>> Hi Spencer (CCAMP copied as well),
>>=20
>> Here is a link for everyone's convenience:
>>=20
>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01.txt
>>=20
>> At IETF 80, there were questions about overlap with other CCAMP drafts c=
ontaining interface delay metrics and proposals for new TE sub-TLVs. Have y=
ou or your co-authors, done looked at how your draft is positioned versus t=
hese other drafts? While these applications have differing goals, the CCAMP=
/OSPF chairs requested that this analysis be done.
>>=20
>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-wang-ccamp-latency-te-metric-03.txt
>>=20
>> We would like to avoid having exactly the same information advertised in=
 two different link Sub-TLVs. I'd hope we could agree on common units.
>>=20
>> Thanks,
>> Acee
>>=20
>> On Jun 20, 2011, at 4:30 PM, Spencer Giacalone wrote:
>>=20
>>> Hello everyone,
>>>=20
>>> As you may have noticed, another version of the OSPF TE Express Path
>>> draft has been posted. We made a number of changes based on feedback
>>> from IETF 80. We invite your comments and suggestions. The main
>>> changes include:
>>>=20
>>> -We have consolidated some sub-TLVs for efficiency. There are no
>>> longer nominal and anomalous sub-TLVs for delay and loss. The
>>> functionality for signaling steady state verses abnormal performance
>>> for these parameters have been moved into two sub-TLVs (where we used
>>> to have four).
>>>=20
>>> -In order to advertise both normal and abnormal network performance
>>> state in consolidated sub-TLVs, a bit, called the anomalous (A) but
>>> has been added to certain sub-TLVs. The A bit is set when the measured
>>> value of a parameter exceeds a configured maximum threshold. The A bit
>>> is cleared when the measured value falls below its configured reuse
>>> threshold. If the A bit is clear, the sub-TLV represents steady state
>>> link performance.
>>>=20
>>> -We changed the encodings of certain variables from floating point to
>>> fixed point. This change permits the addition of the A bit (when
>>> necessary), it allows bit-space reservations to be made, and it
>>> permits a common TLV format across the bulk of the TLVs in the draft.
>>> In addition, the new encodings address concerns about granularity and
>>> interoperability.
>>>=20
>>> -We added sub-TLVs for Residual Bandwidth and Available Bandwidth.
>>> Residual bandwidth is defined as the Maximum Bandwidth [RFC3630] minus
>>> the bandwidth currently allocated to RSVP-TE LSPs. Available bandwidth
>>> is defined to be residual bandwidth minus the measured bandwidth used
>>> for the actual forwarding of non-RSVP-TE LSP packets.
>>>=20
>>> -Various other modifications were made across the draft. These
>>> include, but are not limited to, the abstract, the introduction, the
>>> thresholding specifications, and a number of field descriptions.
>>>=20
>>> -Last, but certainly not least, Stefano Providi has joined the draft
>>>=20
>>> We look forward to hearing your comments and concerns.
>>>=20
>>> Thanks,
>>>=20
>>> Spencer, Alia, Dave, John, Stefano
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OSPF mailing list
>>> OSPF@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> OSPF mailing list
>> OSPF@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
>>=20


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Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 21:45:04 -0400
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From: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
To: Acee Lindem <acee.lindem@ericsson.com>
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Cc: Spencer Giacalone <spencer.giacalone@gmail.com>, CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>, OSPF WG List <ospf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [OSPF] draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01
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Hi Acee,

I do agree that we should explicitly document this in the draft & work
on better names for the sub-TLVs that might be confused.
I also agree that we need to give the decision explicit consideration;
to give this the exposure necessary and consideration for
applications was why we had this draft discussed in rtgwg as well as ospf.

In addition to the obvious uses for RSVP-TE, another potential
application is the idea of a path-weighted ECMP, where traffic is
split to the different next-hops based upon the total path bandwidths
out those next-hops.  This is a pure IP application (LDP follows
of course) and I'd prefer not to lose track of those options when
considering the RSVP-TE applications.

Alia

On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 9:06 PM, Acee Lindem <acee.lindem@ericsson.com> wro=
te:
> Hi Alia,
> I guess I agree with Lou - heretofore, we've done TE requirements in the =
MPLS/CCAMP WGs and the TE encodings in the IGP WGs. I think we should give =
the decision explicit consideration before we branch off and do TE for appl=
ication X independently. Additionally, if we do decide to split this off in=
dependently, an E-mail to the list saying there is no overlap is not suffic=
ient to move forward. At a minimum, I believe we need to:
>
> =A0 1. Explicitly document this alternate applicability and relationship =
to existing TE in the draft.
> =A0 2. Determine whether any sub-TLVs can be shared (my opinion was consi=
stent with yours that there are not due to differences in requirements and =
measurement).
> =A0 3. Assure the sub-TLVs are appropriately named to avoid confusion bet=
ween the latency applications.
>
> Thanks,
> Acee
> On Jun 21, 2011, at 2:08 PM, Alia Atlas wrote:
>
>> Hi Acee,
>>
>> John Drake and I did take a look at the draft mentioned in CCAMP. =A0It
>> had a large number of requirements and extensions to
>> a number of different protocols. =A0There is one sub-TLV (latency) that
>> appears the same - but the expectations
>> as to averaging vs. instantaneous were different.
>>
>> The OSPF TE Express Path work is fairly self-contained and doesn't
>> specify in exact detail how the information
>> for the sub-TLVs is measured or obtained. =A0I think it could be used
>> for multiple purposes.
>>
>> Alia
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 12:49 PM, Acee Lindem <acee.lindem@ericsson.com>=
 wrote:
>>> Hi Spencer (CCAMP copied as well),
>>>
>>> Here is a link for everyone's convenience:
>>>
>>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01.txt
>>>
>>> At IETF 80, there were questions about overlap with other CCAMP drafts =
containing interface delay metrics and proposals for new TE sub-TLVs. Have =
you or your co-authors, done looked at how your draft is positioned versus =
these other drafts? While these applications have differing goals, the CCAM=
P/OSPF chairs requested that this analysis be done.
>>>
>>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-wang-ccamp-latency-te-metric-03.txt
>>>
>>> We would like to avoid having exactly the same information advertised i=
n two different link Sub-TLVs. I'd hope we could agree on common units.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Acee
>>>
>>> On Jun 20, 2011, at 4:30 PM, Spencer Giacalone wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>
>>>> As you may have noticed, another version of the OSPF TE Express Path
>>>> draft has been posted. We made a number of changes based on feedback
>>>> from IETF 80. We invite your comments and suggestions. The main
>>>> changes include:
>>>>
>>>> -We have consolidated some sub-TLVs for efficiency. There are no
>>>> longer nominal and anomalous sub-TLVs for delay and loss. The
>>>> functionality for signaling steady state verses abnormal performance
>>>> for these parameters have been moved into two sub-TLVs (where we used
>>>> to have four).
>>>>
>>>> -In order to advertise both normal and abnormal network performance
>>>> state in consolidated sub-TLVs, a bit, called the anomalous (A) but
>>>> has been added to certain sub-TLVs. The A bit is set when the measured
>>>> value of a parameter exceeds a configured maximum threshold. The A bit
>>>> is cleared when the measured value falls below its configured reuse
>>>> threshold. If the A bit is clear, the sub-TLV represents steady state
>>>> link performance.
>>>>
>>>> -We changed the encodings of certain variables from floating point to
>>>> fixed point. This change permits the addition of the A bit (when
>>>> necessary), it allows bit-space reservations to be made, and it
>>>> permits a common TLV format across the bulk of the TLVs in the draft.
>>>> In addition, the new encodings address concerns about granularity and
>>>> interoperability.
>>>>
>>>> -We added sub-TLVs for Residual Bandwidth and Available Bandwidth.
>>>> Residual bandwidth is defined as the Maximum Bandwidth [RFC3630] minus
>>>> the bandwidth currently allocated to RSVP-TE LSPs. Available bandwidth
>>>> is defined to be residual bandwidth minus the measured bandwidth used
>>>> for the actual forwarding of non-RSVP-TE LSP packets.
>>>>
>>>> -Various other modifications were made across the draft. These
>>>> include, but are not limited to, the abstract, the introduction, the
>>>> thresholding specifications, and a number of field descriptions.
>>>>
>>>> -Last, but certainly not least, Stefano Providi has joined the draft
>>>>
>>>> We look forward to hearing your comments and concerns.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Spencer, Alia, Dave, John, Stefano
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> OSPF mailing list
>>>> OSPF@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OSPF mailing list
>>> OSPF@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
>>>
>
>

From jdrake@juniper.net  Tue Jun 21 20:17:46 2011
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>, Acee Lindem <acee.lindem@ericsson.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 20:10:46 -0700
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] [OSPF] draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01
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References: <BANLkTimtJPOO+-atPS=YvkngZd2dmX-W6w@mail.gmail.com> <A04F4AB9-8D0B-4EBC-B69E-06ACD6B49697@ericsson.com> <BANLkTim7C4b3CGkpwSoA6Aro=OX4ZXNZgw@mail.gmail.com> <9AA9A2E7-ECDC-4FF0-A1B0-00808617D764@ericsson.com> <BANLkTinCKqk+LM+J6=1quLYuHuYHLx6Daw@mail.gmail.com>
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Cc: Spencer Giacalone <spencer.giacalone@gmail.com>, CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>, OSPF WG List <ospf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [OSPF] draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01
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Hi,

I am a bit confused.  I thought the proper home for this work would either =
be the rtg wg or the mpls wg.  I thought it was presented to the OSPF wg fo=
r information only.

Thanks,

John=20

Sent from my iPhone


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Alia Atlas
> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 6:45 PM
> To: Acee Lindem
> Cc: Spencer Giacalone; CCAMP; OSPF WG List
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [OSPF] draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01
>=20
> Hi Acee,
>=20
> I do agree that we should explicitly document this in the draft & work
> on better names for the sub-TLVs that might be confused.
> I also agree that we need to give the decision explicit consideration;
> to give this the exposure necessary and consideration for
> applications was why we had this draft discussed in rtgwg as well as
> ospf.
>=20
> In addition to the obvious uses for RSVP-TE, another potential
> application is the idea of a path-weighted ECMP, where traffic is
> split to the different next-hops based upon the total path bandwidths
> out those next-hops.  This is a pure IP application (LDP follows
> of course) and I'd prefer not to lose track of those options when
> considering the RSVP-TE applications.
>=20
> Alia
>=20
> On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 9:06 PM, Acee Lindem <acee.lindem@ericsson.com>
> wrote:
> > Hi Alia,
> > I guess I agree with Lou - heretofore, we've done TE requirements in
> the MPLS/CCAMP WGs and the TE encodings in the IGP WGs. I think we
> should give the decision explicit consideration before we branch off
> and do TE for application X independently. Additionally, if we do
> decide to split this off independently, an E-mail to the list saying
> there is no overlap is not sufficient to move forward. At a minimum, I
> believe we need to:
> >
> > =A0 1. Explicitly document this alternate applicability and
> relationship to existing TE in the draft.
> > =A0 2. Determine whether any sub-TLVs can be shared (my opinion was
> consistent with yours that there are not due to differences in
> requirements and measurement).
> > =A0 3. Assure the sub-TLVs are appropriately named to avoid confusion
> between the latency applications.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Acee
> > On Jun 21, 2011, at 2:08 PM, Alia Atlas wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Acee,
> >>
> >> John Drake and I did take a look at the draft mentioned in CCAMP.
> =A0It
> >> had a large number of requirements and extensions to
> >> a number of different protocols. =A0There is one sub-TLV (latency)
> that
> >> appears the same - but the expectations
> >> as to averaging vs. instantaneous were different.
> >>
> >> The OSPF TE Express Path work is fairly self-contained and doesn't
> >> specify in exact detail how the information
> >> for the sub-TLVs is measured or obtained. =A0I think it could be used
> >> for multiple purposes.
> >>
> >> Alia
> >>
> >> On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 12:49 PM, Acee Lindem
> <acee.lindem@ericsson.com> wrote:
> >>> Hi Spencer (CCAMP copied as well),
> >>>
> >>> Here is a link for everyone's convenience:
> >>>
> >>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01.txt
> >>>
> >>> At IETF 80, there were questions about overlap with other CCAMP
> drafts containing interface delay metrics and proposals for new TE sub-
> TLVs. Have you or your co-authors, done looked at how your draft is
> positioned versus these other drafts? While these applications have
> differing goals, the CCAMP/OSPF chairs requested that this analysis be
> done.
> >>>
> >>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-wang-ccamp-latency-te-metric-03.txt
> >>>
> >>> We would like to avoid having exactly the same information
> advertised in two different link Sub-TLVs. I'd hope we could agree on
> common units.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> Acee
> >>>
> >>> On Jun 20, 2011, at 4:30 PM, Spencer Giacalone wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hello everyone,
> >>>>
> >>>> As you may have noticed, another version of the OSPF TE Express
> Path
> >>>> draft has been posted. We made a number of changes based on
> feedback
> >>>> from IETF 80. We invite your comments and suggestions. The main
> >>>> changes include:
> >>>>
> >>>> -We have consolidated some sub-TLVs for efficiency. There are no
> >>>> longer nominal and anomalous sub-TLVs for delay and loss. The
> >>>> functionality for signaling steady state verses abnormal
> performance
> >>>> for these parameters have been moved into two sub-TLVs (where we
> used
> >>>> to have four).
> >>>>
> >>>> -In order to advertise both normal and abnormal network
> performance
> >>>> state in consolidated sub-TLVs, a bit, called the anomalous (A)
> but
> >>>> has been added to certain sub-TLVs. The A bit is set when the
> measured
> >>>> value of a parameter exceeds a configured maximum threshold. The A
> bit
> >>>> is cleared when the measured value falls below its configured
> reuse
> >>>> threshold. If the A bit is clear, the sub-TLV represents steady
> state
> >>>> link performance.
> >>>>
> >>>> -We changed the encodings of certain variables from floating point
> to
> >>>> fixed point. This change permits the addition of the A bit (when
> >>>> necessary), it allows bit-space reservations to be made, and it
> >>>> permits a common TLV format across the bulk of the TLVs in the
> draft.
> >>>> In addition, the new encodings address concerns about granularity
> and
> >>>> interoperability.
> >>>>
> >>>> -We added sub-TLVs for Residual Bandwidth and Available Bandwidth.
> >>>> Residual bandwidth is defined as the Maximum Bandwidth [RFC3630]
> minus
> >>>> the bandwidth currently allocated to RSVP-TE LSPs. Available
> bandwidth
> >>>> is defined to be residual bandwidth minus the measured bandwidth
> used
> >>>> for the actual forwarding of non-RSVP-TE LSP packets.
> >>>>
> >>>> -Various other modifications were made across the draft. These
> >>>> include, but are not limited to, the abstract, the introduction,
> the
> >>>> thresholding specifications, and a number of field descriptions.
> >>>>
> >>>> -Last, but certainly not least, Stefano Providi has joined the
> draft
> >>>>
> >>>> We look forward to hearing your comments and concerns.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>>
> >>>> Spencer, Alia, Dave, John, Stefano
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> OSPF mailing list
> >>>> OSPF@ietf.org
> >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> OSPF mailing list
> >>> OSPF@ietf.org
> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
> >>>
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

From acee.lindem@ericsson.com  Wed Jun 22 05:33:53 2011
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From: Acee Lindem <acee.lindem@ericsson.com>
To: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 08:33:43 -0400
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Cc: Spencer Giacalone <spencer.giacalone@gmail.com>, CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>, OSPF WG List <ospf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [OSPF] draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01
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Hi Alia,=20

On Jun 21, 2011, at 9:45 PM, Alia Atlas wrote:

> Hi Acee,
>=20
> I do agree that we should explicitly document this in the draft & work
> on better names for the sub-TLVs that might be confused.

Note that it may be the it may be the names in the Y.1540/Y.1541 TE latency=
 draft that need further qualification since their definitions are more str=
ictly scoped. Anyway, lets see how the discussion on where this should be d=
one proceeds.=20


> I also agree that we need to give the decision explicit consideration;
> to give this the exposure necessary and consideration for
> applications was why we had this draft discussed in rtgwg as well as ospf=
.

Great - I think we are in agreement. I'm not adamantly opposed to doing TE =
independently for applications falling into this category - I just think we=
 should have the discussion Lou is proposing.=20

Thanks,
Acee=20



>=20
> In addition to the obvious uses for RSVP-TE, another potential
> application is the idea of a path-weighted ECMP, where traffic is
> split to the different next-hops based upon the total path bandwidths
> out those next-hops.  This is a pure IP application (LDP follows
> of course) and I'd prefer not to lose track of those options when
> considering the RSVP-TE applications.
>=20
> Alia
>=20
> On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 9:06 PM, Acee Lindem <acee.lindem@ericsson.com> w=
rote:
>> Hi Alia,
>> I guess I agree with Lou - heretofore, we've done TE requirements in the=
 MPLS/CCAMP WGs and the TE encodings in the IGP WGs. I think we should give=
 the decision explicit consideration before we branch off and do TE for app=
lication X independently. Additionally, if we do decide to split this off i=
ndependently, an E-mail to the list saying there is no overlap is not suffi=
cient to move forward. At a minimum, I believe we need to:
>>=20
>>   1. Explicitly document this alternate applicability and relationship t=
o existing TE in the draft.
>>   2. Determine whether any sub-TLVs can be shared (my opinion was consis=
tent with yours that there are not due to differences in requirements and m=
easurement).
>>   3. Assure the sub-TLVs are appropriately named to avoid confusion betw=
een the latency applications.
>>=20
>> Thanks,
>> Acee
>> On Jun 21, 2011, at 2:08 PM, Alia Atlas wrote:
>>=20
>>> Hi Acee,
>>>=20
>>> John Drake and I did take a look at the draft mentioned in CCAMP.  It
>>> had a large number of requirements and extensions to
>>> a number of different protocols.  There is one sub-TLV (latency) that
>>> appears the same - but the expectations
>>> as to averaging vs. instantaneous were different.
>>>=20
>>> The OSPF TE Express Path work is fairly self-contained and doesn't
>>> specify in exact detail how the information
>>> for the sub-TLVs is measured or obtained.  I think it could be used
>>> for multiple purposes.
>>>=20
>>> Alia
>>>=20
>>> On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 12:49 PM, Acee Lindem <acee.lindem@ericsson.com=
> wrote:
>>>> Hi Spencer (CCAMP copied as well),
>>>>=20
>>>> Here is a link for everyone's convenience:
>>>>=20
>>>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01.txt
>>>>=20
>>>> At IETF 80, there were questions about overlap with other CCAMP drafts=
 containing interface delay metrics and proposals for new TE sub-TLVs. Have=
 you or your co-authors, done looked at how your draft is positioned versus=
 these other drafts? While these applications have differing goals, the CCA=
MP/OSPF chairs requested that this analysis be done.
>>>>=20
>>>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-wang-ccamp-latency-te-metric-03.txt
>>>>=20
>>>> We would like to avoid having exactly the same information advertised =
in two different link Sub-TLVs. I'd hope we could agree on common units.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Acee
>>>>=20
>>>> On Jun 20, 2011, at 4:30 PM, Spencer Giacalone wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> As you may have noticed, another version of the OSPF TE Express Path
>>>>> draft has been posted. We made a number of changes based on feedback
>>>>> from IETF 80. We invite your comments and suggestions. The main
>>>>> changes include:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -We have consolidated some sub-TLVs for efficiency. There are no
>>>>> longer nominal and anomalous sub-TLVs for delay and loss. The
>>>>> functionality for signaling steady state verses abnormal performance
>>>>> for these parameters have been moved into two sub-TLVs (where we used
>>>>> to have four).
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -In order to advertise both normal and abnormal network performance
>>>>> state in consolidated sub-TLVs, a bit, called the anomalous (A) but
>>>>> has been added to certain sub-TLVs. The A bit is set when the measure=
d
>>>>> value of a parameter exceeds a configured maximum threshold. The A bi=
t
>>>>> is cleared when the measured value falls below its configured reuse
>>>>> threshold. If the A bit is clear, the sub-TLV represents steady state
>>>>> link performance.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -We changed the encodings of certain variables from floating point to
>>>>> fixed point. This change permits the addition of the A bit (when
>>>>> necessary), it allows bit-space reservations to be made, and it
>>>>> permits a common TLV format across the bulk of the TLVs in the draft.
>>>>> In addition, the new encodings address concerns about granularity and
>>>>> interoperability.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -We added sub-TLVs for Residual Bandwidth and Available Bandwidth.
>>>>> Residual bandwidth is defined as the Maximum Bandwidth [RFC3630] minu=
s
>>>>> the bandwidth currently allocated to RSVP-TE LSPs. Available bandwidt=
h
>>>>> is defined to be residual bandwidth minus the measured bandwidth used
>>>>> for the actual forwarding of non-RSVP-TE LSP packets.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -Various other modifications were made across the draft. These
>>>>> include, but are not limited to, the abstract, the introduction, the
>>>>> thresholding specifications, and a number of field descriptions.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -Last, but certainly not least, Stefano Providi has joined the draft
>>>>>=20
>>>>> We look forward to hearing your comments and concerns.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Spencer, Alia, Dave, John, Stefano
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> OSPF mailing list
>>>>> OSPF@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> OSPF mailing list
>>>> OSPF@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
>>>>=20
>>=20
>>=20


From acee.lindem@ericsson.com  Wed Jun 22 05:40:11 2011
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From: Acee Lindem <acee.lindem@ericsson.com>
To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 08:40:01 -0400
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] [OSPF] draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01
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Cc: Spencer Giacalone <spencer.giacalone@gmail.com>, CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>, OSPF WG List <ospf@ietf.org>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [OSPF] draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01
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Hi John,=20
As it stands, the draft contains mainly OSPF TE encodings and consideration=
s. Hence, my inclination would be to keep it in the OSPF WG. However, I'm w=
illing to listen to other proposals.=20

Thanks,
Acee
On Jun 21, 2011, at 11:10 PM, John E Drake wrote:

> Hi,
>=20
> I am a bit confused.  I thought the proper home for this work would eithe=
r be the rtg wg or the mpls wg.  I thought it was presented to the OSPF wg =
for information only.
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> John=20
>=20
> Sent from my iPhone
>=20
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>> Of Alia Atlas
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 6:45 PM
>> To: Acee Lindem
>> Cc: Spencer Giacalone; CCAMP; OSPF WG List
>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [OSPF] draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01
>>=20
>> Hi Acee,
>>=20
>> I do agree that we should explicitly document this in the draft & work
>> on better names for the sub-TLVs that might be confused.
>> I also agree that we need to give the decision explicit consideration;
>> to give this the exposure necessary and consideration for
>> applications was why we had this draft discussed in rtgwg as well as
>> ospf.
>>=20
>> In addition to the obvious uses for RSVP-TE, another potential
>> application is the idea of a path-weighted ECMP, where traffic is
>> split to the different next-hops based upon the total path bandwidths
>> out those next-hops.  This is a pure IP application (LDP follows
>> of course) and I'd prefer not to lose track of those options when
>> considering the RSVP-TE applications.
>>=20
>> Alia
>>=20
>> On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 9:06 PM, Acee Lindem <acee.lindem@ericsson.com>
>> wrote:
>>> Hi Alia,
>>> I guess I agree with Lou - heretofore, we've done TE requirements in
>> the MPLS/CCAMP WGs and the TE encodings in the IGP WGs. I think we
>> should give the decision explicit consideration before we branch off
>> and do TE for application X independently. Additionally, if we do
>> decide to split this off independently, an E-mail to the list saying
>> there is no overlap is not sufficient to move forward. At a minimum, I
>> believe we need to:
>>>=20
>>>   1. Explicitly document this alternate applicability and
>> relationship to existing TE in the draft.
>>>   2. Determine whether any sub-TLVs can be shared (my opinion was
>> consistent with yours that there are not due to differences in
>> requirements and measurement).
>>>   3. Assure the sub-TLVs are appropriately named to avoid confusion
>> between the latency applications.
>>>=20
>>> Thanks,
>>> Acee
>>> On Jun 21, 2011, at 2:08 PM, Alia Atlas wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> Hi Acee,
>>>>=20
>>>> John Drake and I did take a look at the draft mentioned in CCAMP.
>>  It
>>>> had a large number of requirements and extensions to
>>>> a number of different protocols.  There is one sub-TLV (latency)
>> that
>>>> appears the same - but the expectations
>>>> as to averaging vs. instantaneous were different.
>>>>=20
>>>> The OSPF TE Express Path work is fairly self-contained and doesn't
>>>> specify in exact detail how the information
>>>> for the sub-TLVs is measured or obtained.  I think it could be used
>>>> for multiple purposes.
>>>>=20
>>>> Alia
>>>>=20
>>>> On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 12:49 PM, Acee Lindem
>> <acee.lindem@ericsson.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Spencer (CCAMP copied as well),
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Here is a link for everyone's convenience:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01.txt
>>>>>=20
>>>>> At IETF 80, there were questions about overlap with other CCAMP
>> drafts containing interface delay metrics and proposals for new TE sub-
>> TLVs. Have you or your co-authors, done looked at how your draft is
>> positioned versus these other drafts? While these applications have
>> differing goals, the CCAMP/OSPF chairs requested that this analysis be
>> done.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-wang-ccamp-latency-te-metric-03.txt
>>>>>=20
>>>>> We would like to avoid having exactly the same information
>> advertised in two different link Sub-TLVs. I'd hope we could agree on
>> common units.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Acee
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Jun 20, 2011, at 4:30 PM, Spencer Giacalone wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> As you may have noticed, another version of the OSPF TE Express
>> Path
>>>>>> draft has been posted. We made a number of changes based on
>> feedback
>>>>>> from IETF 80. We invite your comments and suggestions. The main
>>>>>> changes include:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> -We have consolidated some sub-TLVs for efficiency. There are no
>>>>>> longer nominal and anomalous sub-TLVs for delay and loss. The
>>>>>> functionality for signaling steady state verses abnormal
>> performance
>>>>>> for these parameters have been moved into two sub-TLVs (where we
>> used
>>>>>> to have four).
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> -In order to advertise both normal and abnormal network
>> performance
>>>>>> state in consolidated sub-TLVs, a bit, called the anomalous (A)
>> but
>>>>>> has been added to certain sub-TLVs. The A bit is set when the
>> measured
>>>>>> value of a parameter exceeds a configured maximum threshold. The A
>> bit
>>>>>> is cleared when the measured value falls below its configured
>> reuse
>>>>>> threshold. If the A bit is clear, the sub-TLV represents steady
>> state
>>>>>> link performance.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> -We changed the encodings of certain variables from floating point
>> to
>>>>>> fixed point. This change permits the addition of the A bit (when
>>>>>> necessary), it allows bit-space reservations to be made, and it
>>>>>> permits a common TLV format across the bulk of the TLVs in the
>> draft.
>>>>>> In addition, the new encodings address concerns about granularity
>> and
>>>>>> interoperability.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> -We added sub-TLVs for Residual Bandwidth and Available Bandwidth.
>>>>>> Residual bandwidth is defined as the Maximum Bandwidth [RFC3630]
>> minus
>>>>>> the bandwidth currently allocated to RSVP-TE LSPs. Available
>> bandwidth
>>>>>> is defined to be residual bandwidth minus the measured bandwidth
>> used
>>>>>> for the actual forwarding of non-RSVP-TE LSP packets.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> -Various other modifications were made across the draft. These
>>>>>> include, but are not limited to, the abstract, the introduction,
>> the
>>>>>> thresholding specifications, and a number of field descriptions.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> -Last, but certainly not least, Stefano Providi has joined the
>> draft
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> We look forward to hearing your comments and concerns.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Spencer, Alia, Dave, John, Stefano
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> OSPF mailing list
>>>>>> OSPF@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> OSPF mailing list
>>>>> OSPF@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
>>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp


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To: Greg Bernstein <gregb@grotto-networking.com>, "ccamp@ietf.org" <ccamp@ietf.org>
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Hi Greg,

I clearly get your will of understanding how the evaluation in section 5 wa=
s conducted, and
I've noticed you were concerned by 2 points:
  - 1 the node model and node diagram. The way we have conducted the study,=
 we refered to generic types of nodes (independant of the node internal str=
ucture), as we wanted the study not to be specific to a given product or ar=
chitecture. Basically we have taken values for the items that are modeled b=
y the information model. Though, for each case, we can provide multiple arc=
hitectures (then diagrams) which would provide the same hypothesis. Our tex=
t in section 5.2 is certainly perfectible, hence if when reading it some po=
ints are either unclear or lacking to help the reader understand, please le=
t us know which ones. Section 5.2 is quoted below.
  - 2 the encodings as used for current drafts. I have to say I fail in und=
erstanding what you mean there. The encodings are provided in the drafts, w=
e have used the drafts indications to determine those, as you are the edito=
r of this draft, I would guess you would know how to determine those. Apart=
 from tiny details, there is no much degree of freedom  in the way of encod=
ing a given structure (which is to be hoped for in the frame of standardize=
d protocol extensions). Can you help me then understand your point ?

   o  Node Degree Connectivity: 4, 8 and 16.

   o  WDM capacity: 100 wavelengths.

   o  Switching capacity.  Defines the total node switching capability
      and is calculated as Node Degree Connectivity x 100 wavelengths.

   o  Regeneration Capability.  We assume a value of 5% of the total
      switching capacity.

   o  Add/Drop Capability.  We assume a typical value of 25% of the
      switching capability.  So in the average up to 30 wavelengths per
      incoming fiber can be added/dropped within the optical node.

   o  Resource pool setup and capabilities.  A physical resource pool
      contains a mix of Add/Drop and Regeneration capabilities.  This
      has the effect of increasing the number of resource pool
      advertized.  Resource pool can be fully flexible (connected to any
      port), partial (only to some port) or Fixed (can only be connected
      to one direction).  This parameter influences the complexity of
      the connectivity matrix.

   o  Number of Regenerator types.  For a given node the number of OEO
      capabilities is limited, it is typically decided by the type of
      electrical equipment and optical modules (emitting laser and
      optical receiver).

   o  Blocking Ratio.  The Spatial/Spectral blocking ratio indicates how
      much port-based/wavelength based blocking a node is experiencing.

   For example considering the typical design it results in the
   following static layout:

   o  3 OEO pools each having 3 Resource Block inside.

   o  Connectivity Matrix: (8+30+30) 64x64 if considering one
      connectivity matrix.  Ingress=3D64x3, Egress=3D3x64 (considering the
      OEO access with a multiple-wavelength link).

   The following types of nodes and node designs were considered in this
   evaluation:

                          Node Types and designs

                 Node Type       Nodal Degree Pool Type Blocking
            Small(S), Flexible         4       Partial    None
           Small(S), Fixed(port)       4        Fixed     Port
          Small(S), Fixed(label)       4       Partial   Lambda
            Middle(M), Flexible        8       Flexible   None
            Large(L), Flexible        16       Flexible   None

   For the small nodes, 5 different type of regenerators are considered,
   for the Middle and Large ones 10 different type of regenerators are
   considered.  Based on those designs we derived the following
   important figures:

   o  Number of resourcePool : depends on the pool type and
      connectivity, which depend on the port blocking and number of Add/
      Drop and Regenerator capacity.

   o  Number of resourceBlock.  There is two numbers to be considered
      here : the number of resourceBlock for a given resource pool (this
      document) and total number of resourceBlock
      ([I-D.ietf-ccamp-rwa-info]).  In this document the number of
      resource block within a resource pool is, worst case, the number
      of possible regenerator types, whereas in
      [I-D.ietf-ccamp-rwa-info] the number of resource block depends on
      the number of OEO types and on the connectivity.

   o  Number of connectivity matrix/number of pairs/link per pairs.  The
      number of sub-matrix increase depending on the port blocking
      ratio, the number of pair in one connectivity matrix depends on
      the wavelength restrictions.  Those two criteria do not depend on
      which information model is considered.  The number of link per set
      is increased by the number of resource pool in this draft.

   Those numbers for each node are shown in the following table
(corrected the number of pools)

                Details of information elements per node

        Node Type    Resource Pools Resource Blocks Matrix/Pair/Links
       S, Flexible          6            5 (30)       1/1/10 (1/1/1)
      S, Fixed(port)       12            5 (60)       4/4/4 (4/4/1)
     S, Fixed(label)        6            5 (30)       4/1/10 (4/1/1)
       M, Flexible          3           10 (30)       1/1/11 (1/1/1)
       L, Flexible          5           10 (50)       1/1/21 (1/1/1)

       Nota: Values for [I-D.ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode] are between
                                 brackets

 As the preceding table may be uneasy to read, here is an alternative one:

                 Details of information elements per node

                        #Device            #ResProp
   Node Type    #Pools   Type    #Blocks     TLV     Matrix/Pair/Links
  S, Flexible      6       5       30       5 (25)     1/1/10 (1/1/1)
 S, Fixed(port)   12       5       60       5 (45)     4/4/4  (4/4/1)
S, Fixed(label)    6       5       30       5 (25)     4/1/10 (4/1/1)
  M, Flexible      3      10       30      10 (30)     1/1/11 (1/1/1)
  L, Flexible      5      10       50      10 (40)     1/1/21 (1/1/1)

       Nota: Values for [I-D.ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode] are between
                                 brackets

Regards,

Pierre

-----Message d'origine-----
De : ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de G=
reg Bernstein
Envoy=E9 : vendredi 17 juin 2011 19:53
=C0 : ccamp@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version Notificationfordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-=
ospf-oeo-03.txt

This issue can be readily resolved if the  diagrams and current WG draft su=
b-TLV encoding use in sections 5.2 and 5.3 of peloso-3 is given.
There are four authors of this document, hence somebody must have a diagram=
 of the switch and sub-TLV encodings that generated the numbers used in the=
 evaluation. If you can furnish that then I will show either
(a) That the system of interest can be efficiently encoded with the current=
 WG drafts and current GMPLS/OSPF mechanisms.
or
(b) That a minimalistic extension to the WSON encoding draft along with cur=
rent GMPLS/OSPF extensions can be used to efficiently encode this system.

Note that the purpose of this exercise is to solve a potential problem with=
 the WSON WG drafts and if enough folks are concerned about a potential pro=
blem we can figure out how to solve it.  The purpose is not a general re-wr=
ite of these drafts. Note that during the development of the WSON WG drafts=
 we shared all our test cases freely via my website, informal presentations=
 at previous IETF meetings, and in papers published in journals. I don't se=
en any reason for the authors of
peloso-3 to keep their test cases secret when asking for changes to CCAMP W=
G drafts to accommodate it.

Greg

On 6/17/2011 9:20 AM, Julien Meuric wrote:
> Hi Young.
>
> You are right on one thing: operators try to minimize costs. This is
> exactly why ROADMs are first deployed with 10 Gb/s wavelengths, 40
> Gb/s when transponders become cost-efficient enough, and then 100
> Gb/s, which will likely become cost-efficient later... Obviously,
> minimizing cost mean deploying over existing things, not replacing;
> therefore we end up with many types of regenerators, due to the
> various bit-rates and modulation format existing out there.
>
> I personally believe that a few-year-old long haul network will end up
> beyond Cyril's "reasonable figures" quite easily.
>
> Regards,
>
> Julien
>
>
> Le 17/06/2011 17:55, Leeyoung a =E9crit :
>>
>>  Cyril,
>>
>>
>>
>>  I think your example is a corner case, which is not typical case. We
>> should not base this kind of highly theoretical corner case as the
>> base case for your analysis. We are dealing with WSON switching
>> enabled ROADM networks, not necessarily dealing with legacy DWDM
>> system. Please also note that the typical WSON switching nodes are
>> transparent nodes. Only some of the nodes may have Regen elements
>> ---as I mentioned in the previous email, the operators try to
>> minimize the use of Regen's due to its high cost.
>>
>>
>>
>>  Please see my other comment in-line.
>>
>>
>>
>>  Thanks.
>>
>>  Young
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  -------------------------
>>
>>  *From:*Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich)
>> [mailto:cyril.margaria@nsn.com] **
>>
>>
>>
>>  Hi Young Lee, Ccamper's,
>>
>>
>>
>>  Reducing the type of regenerator makes sense but mixing regenerator
>> type makes also sense, as you would try to avoid having only
>> 40G-capable 3R when you can go for a cheaper 10G regenerator,
>> depending on your demands.
>>
>>
>>
>>  In Greenfield deployments single rate makes sense, in an existing
>> networks having multi-rate (2) support with different electrical
>> module may be less common but should still be supported.
>>
>>  This kind of network would need 6 description for the processing
>> capability alone. The total number of resource description need to
>> be higher, as in the info model the description of a regenerator
>> include the number of resource. Each time the connectivity imply a
>> different number of regenerator are grouped together a separate
>> ResourceBlockInfo should be used (Separating connectivity and
>> regenerator setup would help here).
>>
>>
>>
>>  *YOUNG>> Your point on "separating connectivity and regenerator
>> setup  would help here" is exactly the encoding principles of the
>> current WG  adopted encoding drafts. Then I don't clearly understand
>> what the  Pierre's draft are trying to do. *
>>
>>
>>
>>  Best case would see indeed 0-2 type of regenerator, intermediate
>> actual deployments can see 6 types of regenerator, we also considered
>> looking at possible evolutions, 10 being in our opinion a reasonable
>> number.
>>
>>
>>
>>  I hope it could help you understand better what is considered in the
>> draft. Those consideration will be more detailed in the next revision
>> of the draft.
>>
>>
>>
>>  Best Regards
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  *From:*ext Leeyoung [mailto:leeyoung@huawei.com] **
>>
>>
>>
>>  Hi Cyril,
>>
>>
>>
>>  I think your analysis below is very theoretical and a bit out of
>> reality in WSON node configuration.
>>
>>
>>
>>  We are dealing with wavelength level so that OTUk level is
>> transparent to WSON. In typical optical switch node configuration in
>> WSON, we don't simply mix up all possible kinds of regenerators per
>> each modulation type. It is true that we have many modulation types
>> for each rate and the model should support all possibility. But this
>> does not mean we have all "10 types" at the same time in a node
>> design. As you know, regenerator is one of the most expensive WSON
>> elements and having many types in a node is not economical and not
>> realistic.
>>
>>
>>
>>  As far as my understanding of node design, we don't have such thing
>> as you said in your email to support 10+ different types of
>> regenerators in a node. In a typical commercially deployed WSON
>> switching node, we have one rate (e.g., 10G or 40G, or possibly
>>  others) and one regenerator type for each rate. If we have
>> multi-rate  support, we may have two rates and thus two regenerators
>> in a typical  WSON switching node.
>>
>>
>>
>>  I would be interested in the node design diagram that supports 10+
>> different regenerators at the same time. I haven't seen such one
>> myself yet.
>>
>>
>>
>>  Please also note that the WSON model has to support transparent node
>> configuration, which we don't have "regen" element.
>>
>>
>>
>>  Best Regards,
>>
>>  Young
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  -------------------------
>>
>>  *From:*ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] *On
>> Behalf Of *Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich) **
>>
>>  Hi Greg, CCAMPers,
>>
>>
>>
>>  Regarding point (2), using one regen type per OTUk (k in [[1..4]]),
>> and 2 type of laser module per reach makes already 8 type of oeo
>> properties. Adding slightly different hw types (i.e old board with
>> old modulation and a more recent with DP-QPSK) makes an easy 10 types
>> for a big node.
>>
>>
>>
>>  Without going into product families this sounded reasonable (for
>> instance a typical product would indicate supports for 10 and 40g
>> with different modulation, so lets say 2 sub-board type, which makes
>>  6 regen type); The introduction of OTU4 and later OTU5 will increase
>> the types of regenerator supported.
>>
>>
>>
>>  The size expansion is indeed related to the number of regenerator
>> type, resource blocks contain connectivity, oeo-feature and how the
>> blocks are grouped.
>>
>>
>>
>>  The other point would indeed clarify the document, the setup of
>> resource pools/blocks is shown in Figure 1, a resource pool
>> aggregating the connectivity for several resource blocks.
>>
>>
>>
>>  Best regards.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  *From:*ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] *On
>> Behalf Of *ext Greg Bernstein **
>>
>>
>>
>>  Hi Pierre and draft authors, can you provide: (1) Diagrams of the
>> example switches particularly with respect to the structure of the
>> resource pools/blocks. (2) Explanation of why so many different types
>> (not number) of regenerators in an optical node. You site 5 different
>> types for a small node and 10 for a large node. Can you point to a
>> product family? I would think 0-1 types of regenerators for a small
>> node and at maybe 2 for a large node or nodes that deal with long
>> haul and metro types modulations. (3) Can you provide the example
>> encodings such as done in the appendix of the encoding document so we
>> can understand where the expansion is taking place.
>>
>>  It seems that the size expansions is directly related to the number
>> of regenerator types, but hard to tell from this document. Are there
>> any other WSON interested parties that have a need for so many
>> regenerator types?
>>
>>  Cheers
>>
>>  Greg B.
>>
>>  On 6/10/2011 7:19 AM, PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) wrote:
>>
>>  Hi Ccampers,
>>
>>  During Prague meeting I was asked to provide a draft detailing the
>> solution we were presenting then concerning OSPF-TE extensions for
>> Wavelength Switched Optical Networks (see point 10 of ccamp
>> minutes). Julien, Giovanni, Cyril and I have tackled this work of
>> providing a complete description of the solution with commonalities
>> and deltas from the existing solution held in the following drafts: -
>>  draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-11 -
>>  draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-04 -
>> draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-00 -
>>  draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-11 -
>>  draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-04
>>
>>  Feedback from the working group is welcome.
>>
>>  To trigger this feedback, this draft holds inside section 5 a
>> numerical study on the amount of static and dynamic information to be
>> flooded. This study was conducted on various typical WSON nodes and
>> compares the size of the LSAs between the two solutions.
>>
>>  Regards,
>>
>>  - Pierre
>>
>>
>>  _______________________________________________ CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org <mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>
>>
>>
>>  -- =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D Dr Greg
>> Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237
>>
>>
>>
>>  _______________________________________________ CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>
>


--
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237


_______________________________________________
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From raszuk@cisco.com  Wed Jun 22 01:23:06 2011
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Cc: OSPF WG List <ospf@ietf.org>, CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [OSPF]   draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01
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Hi John,

Protocol extensions should be standardized by the WG focusing on the
protocol .. be it OSPF, ISIS, BGP you name it. It may very easily
compromise operation of the base protocol if done incorrectly.

Very recently we went via very similar discussions reg route server and 
while it does not even introduce any new changes to BGP protocol on the 
wire .. changes to BGP state were sufficient reason to split the draft 
into operational focus in GROW WG and BGP behaviour change in IDR WG.

Similarly here rtg wg or mpls wg could define in separate documents how 
you are going to use newly flooded information or how you are going to 
collect and populate those information into IGPs.

Rgs,
R.

> Hi,
>
> I am a bit confused.  I thought the proper home for this work would
> either be the rtg wg or the mpls wg.  I thought it was presented to
> the OSPF wg for information only.
>
> Thanks,
>
> John
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>> -----Original Message----- From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org
>> [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alia Atlas Sent:
>> Tuesday, June 21, 2011 6:45 PM To: Acee Lindem Cc: Spencer
>> Giacalone; CCAMP; OSPF WG List Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [OSPF]
>> draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01
>>
>> Hi Acee,
>>
>> I do agree that we should explicitly document this in the draft&
>> work on better names for the sub-TLVs that might be confused. I
>> also agree that we need to give the decision explicit
>> consideration; to give this the exposure necessary and
>> consideration for applications was why we had this draft discussed
>> in rtgwg as well as ospf.
>>
>> In addition to the obvious uses for RSVP-TE, another potential
>> application is the idea of a path-weighted ECMP, where traffic is
>> split to the different next-hops based upon the total path
>> bandwidths out those next-hops.  This is a pure IP application (LDP
>> follows of course) and I'd prefer not to lose track of those
>> options when considering the RSVP-TE applications.
>>
>> Alia

From spencer.giacalone@gmail.com  Wed Jun 22 06:17:24 2011
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [OSPF] draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01
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That was our thought as well. Also, Dave Ward did have some
conversations with Lou.

Spence




On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 8:40 AM, Acee Lindem <acee.lindem@ericsson.com> wro=
te:
> Hi John,
> As it stands, the draft contains mainly OSPF TE encodings and considerati=
ons. Hence, my inclination would be to keep it in the OSPF WG. However, I'm=
 willing to listen to other proposals.
>
> Thanks,
> Acee
> On Jun 21, 2011, at 11:10 PM, John E Drake wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I am a bit confused. =A0I thought the proper home for this work would ei=
ther be the rtg wg or the mpls wg. =A0I thought it was presented to the OSP=
F wg for information only.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> John
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>> Of Alia Atlas
>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 6:45 PM
>>> To: Acee Lindem
>>> Cc: Spencer Giacalone; CCAMP; OSPF WG List
>>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [OSPF] draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01
>>>
>>> Hi Acee,
>>>
>>> I do agree that we should explicitly document this in the draft & work
>>> on better names for the sub-TLVs that might be confused.
>>> I also agree that we need to give the decision explicit consideration;
>>> to give this the exposure necessary and consideration for
>>> applications was why we had this draft discussed in rtgwg as well as
>>> ospf.
>>>
>>> In addition to the obvious uses for RSVP-TE, another potential
>>> application is the idea of a path-weighted ECMP, where traffic is
>>> split to the different next-hops based upon the total path bandwidths
>>> out those next-hops. =A0This is a pure IP application (LDP follows
>>> of course) and I'd prefer not to lose track of those options when
>>> considering the RSVP-TE applications.
>>>
>>> Alia
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 9:06 PM, Acee Lindem <acee.lindem@ericsson.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Hi Alia,
>>>> I guess I agree with Lou - heretofore, we've done TE requirements in
>>> the MPLS/CCAMP WGs and the TE encodings in the IGP WGs. I think we
>>> should give the decision explicit consideration before we branch off
>>> and do TE for application X independently. Additionally, if we do
>>> decide to split this off independently, an E-mail to the list saying
>>> there is no overlap is not sufficient to move forward. At a minimum, I
>>> believe we need to:
>>>>
>>>> =A0 1. Explicitly document this alternate applicability and
>>> relationship to existing TE in the draft.
>>>> =A0 2. Determine whether any sub-TLVs can be shared (my opinion was
>>> consistent with yours that there are not due to differences in
>>> requirements and measurement).
>>>> =A0 3. Assure the sub-TLVs are appropriately named to avoid confusion
>>> between the latency applications.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Acee
>>>> On Jun 21, 2011, at 2:08 PM, Alia Atlas wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Acee,
>>>>>
>>>>> John Drake and I did take a look at the draft mentioned in CCAMP.
>>> =A0It
>>>>> had a large number of requirements and extensions to
>>>>> a number of different protocols. =A0There is one sub-TLV (latency)
>>> that
>>>>> appears the same - but the expectations
>>>>> as to averaging vs. instantaneous were different.
>>>>>
>>>>> The OSPF TE Express Path work is fairly self-contained and doesn't
>>>>> specify in exact detail how the information
>>>>> for the sub-TLVs is measured or obtained. =A0I think it could be used
>>>>> for multiple purposes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Alia
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 12:49 PM, Acee Lindem
>>> <acee.lindem@ericsson.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Spencer (CCAMP copied as well),
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here is a link for everyone's convenience:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01.txt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At IETF 80, there were questions about overlap with other CCAMP
>>> drafts containing interface delay metrics and proposals for new TE sub-
>>> TLVs. Have you or your co-authors, done looked at how your draft is
>>> positioned versus these other drafts? While these applications have
>>> differing goals, the CCAMP/OSPF chairs requested that this analysis be
>>> done.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-wang-ccamp-latency-te-metric-03.txt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We would like to avoid having exactly the same information
>>> advertised in two different link Sub-TLVs. I'd hope we could agree on
>>> common units.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Acee
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jun 20, 2011, at 4:30 PM, Spencer Giacalone wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As you may have noticed, another version of the OSPF TE Express
>>> Path
>>>>>>> draft has been posted. We made a number of changes based on
>>> feedback
>>>>>>> from IETF 80. We invite your comments and suggestions. The main
>>>>>>> changes include:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -We have consolidated some sub-TLVs for efficiency. There are no
>>>>>>> longer nominal and anomalous sub-TLVs for delay and loss. The
>>>>>>> functionality for signaling steady state verses abnormal
>>> performance
>>>>>>> for these parameters have been moved into two sub-TLVs (where we
>>> used
>>>>>>> to have four).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -In order to advertise both normal and abnormal network
>>> performance
>>>>>>> state in consolidated sub-TLVs, a bit, called the anomalous (A)
>>> but
>>>>>>> has been added to certain sub-TLVs. The A bit is set when the
>>> measured
>>>>>>> value of a parameter exceeds a configured maximum threshold. The A
>>> bit
>>>>>>> is cleared when the measured value falls below its configured
>>> reuse
>>>>>>> threshold. If the A bit is clear, the sub-TLV represents steady
>>> state
>>>>>>> link performance.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -We changed the encodings of certain variables from floating point
>>> to
>>>>>>> fixed point. This change permits the addition of the A bit (when
>>>>>>> necessary), it allows bit-space reservations to be made, and it
>>>>>>> permits a common TLV format across the bulk of the TLVs in the
>>> draft.
>>>>>>> In addition, the new encodings address concerns about granularity
>>> and
>>>>>>> interoperability.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -We added sub-TLVs for Residual Bandwidth and Available Bandwidth.
>>>>>>> Residual bandwidth is defined as the Maximum Bandwidth [RFC3630]
>>> minus
>>>>>>> the bandwidth currently allocated to RSVP-TE LSPs. Available
>>> bandwidth
>>>>>>> is defined to be residual bandwidth minus the measured bandwidth
>>> used
>>>>>>> for the actual forwarding of non-RSVP-TE LSP packets.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -Various other modifications were made across the draft. These
>>>>>>> include, but are not limited to, the abstract, the introduction,
>>> the
>>>>>>> thresholding specifications, and a number of field descriptions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -Last, but certainly not least, Stefano Providi has joined the
>>> draft
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We look forward to hearing your comments and concerns.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Spencer, Alia, Dave, John, Stefano
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> OSPF mailing list
>>>>>>> OSPF@ietf.org
>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> OSPF mailing list
>>>>>> OSPF@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>
>

From lberger@labn.net  Wed Jun 22 08:17:20 2011
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Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 11:16:25 -0400
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>, OSPF WG List <ospf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [OSPF]   draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01
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OSPF WG for the OSPF extensions seems very reasonable to me ;-)

I still hope that the OSPF portions of
draft-wang-ccamp-latency-te-metric can be combined with
draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path given that both drafts state that
they are addressing essentially the same high-level problem.

Lou

On 6/22/2011 8:40 AM, Acee Lindem wrote:
> Hi John, 
> As it stands, the draft contains mainly OSPF TE encodings and considerations. Hence, my inclination would be to keep it in the OSPF WG. However, I'm willing to listen to other proposals. 
> 
> Thanks,
> Acee
> On Jun 21, 2011, at 11:10 PM, John E Drake wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>>
>> I am a bit confused.  I thought the proper home for this work would either be the rtg wg or the mpls wg.  I thought it was presented to the OSPF wg for information only.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> John 
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>> Of Alia Atlas
>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 6:45 PM
>>> To: Acee Lindem
>>> Cc: Spencer Giacalone; CCAMP; OSPF WG List
>>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [OSPF] draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01
>>>
>>> Hi Acee,
>>>
>>> I do agree that we should explicitly document this in the draft & work
>>> on better names for the sub-TLVs that might be confused.
>>> I also agree that we need to give the decision explicit consideration;
>>> to give this the exposure necessary and consideration for
>>> applications was why we had this draft discussed in rtgwg as well as
>>> ospf.
>>>
>>> In addition to the obvious uses for RSVP-TE, another potential
>>> application is the idea of a path-weighted ECMP, where traffic is
>>> split to the different next-hops based upon the total path bandwidths
>>> out those next-hops.  This is a pure IP application (LDP follows
>>> of course) and I'd prefer not to lose track of those options when
>>> considering the RSVP-TE applications.
>>>
>>> Alia
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 9:06 PM, Acee Lindem <acee.lindem@ericsson.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Hi Alia,
>>>> I guess I agree with Lou - heretofore, we've done TE requirements in
>>> the MPLS/CCAMP WGs and the TE encodings in the IGP WGs. I think we
>>> should give the decision explicit consideration before we branch off
>>> and do TE for application X independently. Additionally, if we do
>>> decide to split this off independently, an E-mail to the list saying
>>> there is no overlap is not sufficient to move forward. At a minimum, I
>>> believe we need to:
>>>>
>>>>   1. Explicitly document this alternate applicability and
>>> relationship to existing TE in the draft.
>>>>   2. Determine whether any sub-TLVs can be shared (my opinion was
>>> consistent with yours that there are not due to differences in
>>> requirements and measurement).
>>>>   3. Assure the sub-TLVs are appropriately named to avoid confusion
>>> between the latency applications.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Acee
>>>> On Jun 21, 2011, at 2:08 PM, Alia Atlas wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Acee,
>>>>>
>>>>> John Drake and I did take a look at the draft mentioned in CCAMP.
>>>  It
>>>>> had a large number of requirements and extensions to
>>>>> a number of different protocols.  There is one sub-TLV (latency)
>>> that
>>>>> appears the same - but the expectations
>>>>> as to averaging vs. instantaneous were different.
>>>>>
>>>>> The OSPF TE Express Path work is fairly self-contained and doesn't
>>>>> specify in exact detail how the information
>>>>> for the sub-TLVs is measured or obtained.  I think it could be used
>>>>> for multiple purposes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Alia
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 12:49 PM, Acee Lindem
>>> <acee.lindem@ericsson.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Spencer (CCAMP copied as well),
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here is a link for everyone's convenience:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01.txt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At IETF 80, there were questions about overlap with other CCAMP
>>> drafts containing interface delay metrics and proposals for new TE sub-
>>> TLVs. Have you or your co-authors, done looked at how your draft is
>>> positioned versus these other drafts? While these applications have
>>> differing goals, the CCAMP/OSPF chairs requested that this analysis be
>>> done.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-wang-ccamp-latency-te-metric-03.txt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We would like to avoid having exactly the same information
>>> advertised in two different link Sub-TLVs. I'd hope we could agree on
>>> common units.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Acee
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jun 20, 2011, at 4:30 PM, Spencer Giacalone wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As you may have noticed, another version of the OSPF TE Express
>>> Path
>>>>>>> draft has been posted. We made a number of changes based on
>>> feedback
>>>>>>> from IETF 80. We invite your comments and suggestions. The main
>>>>>>> changes include:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -We have consolidated some sub-TLVs for efficiency. There are no
>>>>>>> longer nominal and anomalous sub-TLVs for delay and loss. The
>>>>>>> functionality for signaling steady state verses abnormal
>>> performance
>>>>>>> for these parameters have been moved into two sub-TLVs (where we
>>> used
>>>>>>> to have four).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -In order to advertise both normal and abnormal network
>>> performance
>>>>>>> state in consolidated sub-TLVs, a bit, called the anomalous (A)
>>> but
>>>>>>> has been added to certain sub-TLVs. The A bit is set when the
>>> measured
>>>>>>> value of a parameter exceeds a configured maximum threshold. The A
>>> bit
>>>>>>> is cleared when the measured value falls below its configured
>>> reuse
>>>>>>> threshold. If the A bit is clear, the sub-TLV represents steady
>>> state
>>>>>>> link performance.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -We changed the encodings of certain variables from floating point
>>> to
>>>>>>> fixed point. This change permits the addition of the A bit (when
>>>>>>> necessary), it allows bit-space reservations to be made, and it
>>>>>>> permits a common TLV format across the bulk of the TLVs in the
>>> draft.
>>>>>>> In addition, the new encodings address concerns about granularity
>>> and
>>>>>>> interoperability.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -We added sub-TLVs for Residual Bandwidth and Available Bandwidth.
>>>>>>> Residual bandwidth is defined as the Maximum Bandwidth [RFC3630]
>>> minus
>>>>>>> the bandwidth currently allocated to RSVP-TE LSPs. Available
>>> bandwidth
>>>>>>> is defined to be residual bandwidth minus the measured bandwidth
>>> used
>>>>>>> for the actual forwarding of non-RSVP-TE LSP packets.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -Various other modifications were made across the draft. These
>>>>>>> include, but are not limited to, the abstract, the introduction,
>>> the
>>>>>>> thresholding specifications, and a number of field descriptions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -Last, but certainly not least, Stefano Providi has joined the
>>> draft
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We look forward to hearing your comments and concerns.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Spencer, Alia, Dave, John, Stefano
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> OSPF mailing list
>>>>>>> OSPF@ietf.org
>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> OSPF mailing list
>>>>>> OSPF@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> 
> _______________________________________________
> OSPF mailing list
> OSPF@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
> 
> 
> 
> 

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All,

The draft meeting agenda is out, note, the final agenda will be
published on July 1st.

Please send your requests for time on the working group agenda to the
Chairs and the WG secretary (Dan) by the end of the day on July 5th.

Thanks,
Deborah and Lou

http://www.ietf.org/meeting/81/index.html

Cut-off dates:
http://www.ietf.org/meeting/cutoff-dates-2011.html#IETF81




From saravanannarasimhan@gmail.com  Sun Jun 26 04:49:44 2011
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From: Saravanan Narasimhan <saravanannarasimhan@gmail.com>
To: CCAMP@ietf.org
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Subject: [CCAMP] Questions on PROTECTION object in RFC 4872 GMPLS E2E Protection
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Dear CCAMP-WG,

I have a question regarding PROTECTION object defined RFC 4872.

My understanding is as follows:

1. PROTECTION object with C-Type = 1 as defined in RFC 3471 and RFC 3473 is
used for span protection and restoration. By setting the MIB object
gmplsTunnelLinkProtection which is defined in the RFC 4802 we can achieve
span protection and restoration for a Tunnel.
2. PROTECTION object with C-Type = 2 as defined in RFC 4872 is used for
End-to-End and/or segment protection and restoration.

Is my understanding correct?

If yes, do we have MIB objects defined to configure End-to-End and/or
segment protection and restoration? Can you please point any references to
it?

Thanks,
N.Saravanan

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<span style=3D"font-family: courier new,monospace;">Dear CCAMP-WG,</span><b=
r style=3D"font-family: courier new,monospace;"><br style=3D"font-family: c=
ourier new,monospace;"><span style=3D"font-family: courier new,monospace;">=
I have a question regarding PROTECTION object defined RFC 4872.</span><br s=
tyle=3D"font-family: courier new,monospace;">
<br style=3D"font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y: courier new,monospace;">My understanding is as follows:</span><br style=
=3D"font-family: courier new,monospace;"><br style=3D"font-family: courier =
new,monospace;">
<span style=3D"font-family: courier new,monospace;">1. PROTECTION object wi=
th C-Type =3D 1 as defined in RFC 3471 and RFC 3473 is used for span protec=
tion and restoration. By setting the MIB object gmplsTunnelLinkProtection w=
hich is defined in the RFC 4802 we can achieve span protection and restorat=
ion for a Tunnel.<br>
2. PROTECTION object with C-Type =3D 2 as defined in RFC 4872 is used for E=
nd-to-End and/or segment protection and restoration.</span><br style=3D"fon=
t-family: courier new,monospace;"><br style=3D"font-family: courier new,mon=
ospace;">
<span style=3D"font-family: courier new,monospace;">Is my understanding cor=
rect?</span><br><br><font face=3D"courier new,monospace">If yes, do we have=
 MIB objects defined to configure End-to-End and/or segment protection and =
restoration? Can you please point any references to it?</font><br clear=3D"=
all">
<br>Thanks,<br>N.Saravanan<br>

--000e0cd32868cb4ca404a69c0706--

From pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com  Mon Jun 27 06:50:36 2011
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From: "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: "'CCAMP'" <ccamp@ietf.org>
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Hello CCampers,

Currently two drafts exist for the signaling of LSPs in OTN technology.
The two drafts, namely draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709 and
draft-khuzema-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709, contain a lot of similarities
but are fundamentally different with respect to the support of multi-stage =
technology.

Draft-zhang proposes to deal with multi-stage technology via the usage
of H-LSPs as already defined in RFC6107. With this approach all LSPs
belonging to intermediate layers of a hierarchy are signaled as separate H-=
LSPs.
Monitoring, protection and restoration functionalities are applicable indep=
endently to each LSP.

Draft-khuzema proposes to introduce a new multi-stage label concept so that
a single construct contains labels associated to more then one hierarchical=
 level.
This implies that all level in the OTN  hierarchy with the exclusion of ser=
vice levels
are not visible as single LSPs.
Each layer cannot be independently monitored.
Only the service layer (the layer with the finest granularity) can be  prot=
ected or restored.

Advantages and disadvantages of both approaches can be summarized in short,=
 telling that
the H-LSP approach is able to work in any situation while the multi-stage l=
abel approach is suitable
on single hops or similar situations (reached signaling before an H-LSP) bu=
t, when used,
optimizes processing.

As such we perceive the Draft-khuzema approach as an optimization that coul=
d be supported in an optional way.

Before going on with merging of the two drafts we would like to hear opinio=
ns from CCampers.

Pietro & Sergio

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Pietro Vittorio Grandi
Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
Tel: +39 039 686 4930
Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute. That's rel=
ativity.
(A. Einstein)



--_000_D89B562FE4A5B341B18808FB8441CC7C1768CA60FRMRSSXCHMBSB1d_
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<div>Hello CCampers,</div>
<div><font face=3D"Times New Roman, serif" size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div>
<div>Currently two drafts exist for the signaling of LSPs in OTN technology=
.</div>
<div>The two drafts, namely draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709 and </div=
>
<div>draft-khuzema-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709, contain a lot of similaritie=
s</div>
<div>but are fundamentally different with respect to the support of multi-s=
tage technology.</div>
<div><font face=3D"Times New Roman, serif" size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div>
<div>Draft-zhang proposes to deal with multi-stage technology via the usage=
</div>
<div>of H-LSPs as already defined in RFC6107. With this approach all LSPs</=
div>
<div>belonging to intermediate layers of a hierarchy are signaled as separa=
te H-LSPs.</div>
<div>Monitoring, protection and restoration functionalities are applicable =
independently to each LSP. </div>
<div><font face=3D"Times New Roman, serif" size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div>
<div>Draft-khuzema proposes to introduce a new multi-stage label concept so=
 that</div>
<div>a single construct contains labels associated to more then one hierarc=
hical level.</div>
<div>This implies that all level in the OTN&nbsp; hierarchy with the exclus=
ion of service levels</div>
<div>are not visible as single LSPs. </div>
<div>Each layer cannot be independently monitored.</div>
<div>Only the service layer (the layer with the finest granularity) can be =
 protected or restored.</div>
<div><font face=3D"Times New Roman, serif" size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div>
<div>Advantages and disadvantages of both approaches can be summarized in s=
hort, telling that</div>
<div>the H-LSP approach is able to work in any situation while the multi-st=
age label approach is suitable </div>
<div>on single hops or similar situations (reached signaling before an H-LS=
P) but, when used, </div>
<div>optimizes processing.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>As such we perceive the Draft-khuzema approach as an optimization that=
 could be supported in an optional way.</div>
<div><font face=3D"Times New Roman, serif" size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div>
<div>Before going on with merging of the two drafts we would like to hear o=
pinions from CCampers.&nbsp;  &nbsp; </div>
<div><font face=3D"Times New Roman, serif" size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div>
<div>Pietro &amp; Sergio</div>
<div><font face=3D"Times New Roman, serif" size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div>
<a name=3D"_MailAutoSig"></a>
<div><font face=3D"Arial, sans-serif">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial, sans-serif">Pietro Vittorio Grandi</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial, sans-serif">Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolutio=
n</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial, sans-serif">Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)</fon=
t></div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial, sans-serif">Tel: &#43;39 039 686 4930</font></div=
>
<div><font face=3D"Arial, sans-serif">Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-=
lucent.com</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial, sans-serif">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial, sans-serif">Put your hand on a hot stove for a mi=
nute, and it seems like an hour.</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial, sans-serif">Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, a=
nd it seems like a&nbsp; minute. That's relativity.</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial, sans-serif">(A. Einstein)</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Trebuchet MS, sans-serif" size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Times New Roman, serif" size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div>
</font>
</body>
</html>

--_000_D89B562FE4A5B341B18808FB8441CC7C1768CA60FRMRSSXCHMBSB1d_--

From daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com  Mon Jun 27 07:18:24 2011
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From: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
To: 'CCAMP' <ccamp@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 15:28:20 +0200
Thread-Topic: OSPF OTN drafts merged
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Hi CCAMPers,

As promised during the IETF meeting in Prague the authors of the two compet=
ing drafts on OSPF-TE routing extensions for OTN have been working together=
 and a merged document has been produced.

You can find the merged ID at the following link:

http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ceccarelli-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709-06.txt

Comments and feedback are appreciated

Thanks,
The authors




DANIELE CECCARELLI
System & Technology - DU IP & Broadband

Via L.Calda, 5
Genova, Italy
Phone +390106002512
Mobile +393346725750
daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
www.ericsson.com


 <http://www.ericsson.com/>

This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive email on the b=
asis of the term set out at www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer<http://www.er=
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<div>Hi CCAMPers,</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>As promised during the IETF meeting in Prague the authors of the two c=
ompeting drafts on OSPF-TE routing extensions for OTN have been working tog=
ether and a merged document has been produced.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>You can find the merged ID at the following link:</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial, sans-serif" size=3D"3"><a href=3D"http://tools.ie=
tf.org/id/draft-ceccarelli-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709-06.txt"><font color=3D"#00=
00FF"><u>http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ceccarelli-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709-06=
.txt</u></font></a> </font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial, sans-serif" size=3D"3">&nbsp;</font></div>
<div>Comments and feedback are appreciated</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div>The authors</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>

<img src=3D"cid:4c5067f3-ca6e-48c3-a0e8-e881bdd2341c"> <font face=3D"Arial"=
> <br>

<br>

</font><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#333333"><b>DANIELE CECCARELLI </b></f=
ont><font face=3D"Times New Roman, sans-serif" size=3D"3" color=3D"#333333"=
>
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From okamoto@ieee.org  Mon Jun 27 08:14:57 2011
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Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 00:14:33 +0900
From: Satoru OKAMOTO <okamoto@ieee.org>
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Subject: [CCAMP] Requirements of MiDORi GMPLS Extensions
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Hi CCAMPers,

New GMPLS Extension Requirements for Energy Efficient Traffic Engineering
has bee upload as draft-okamoto-ccamp-midori-gmpls-extension-reqs-00.txt
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-okamoto-ccamp-midori-gmpls-extension-reqs-00.txt

For more information about "MiDORi GMPLS", please see 
http://midori.yamanaka.ics.keio.ac.jp/

Comments and feedback are appreciated.

Thank you,

Satoru Okamoto

Department of Information and Computer Science,
Faculty of Science and Technology, Keio University
3-14-1, Hiyoshi, Kohoku-ku,
Yokohama-shi 223-8522, Japan
Tel: +81 45 563 1151 ext.48241, Fax: +81 45 560 1262
E-mail: okamoto@ieee.org

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	I-D Action: 
draft-okamoto-ccamp-midori-gmpls-extension-reqs-00.txt
Date: 	Mon, 27 Jun 2011 07:49:59 -0700
From: 	internet-drafts@ietf.org
Reply-To: 	internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: 	i-d-announce@ietf.org



A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.

	Title           : Requirements of GMPLS Extensions for Energy Efficient Traffic Engineering
	Author(s)       : Satoru Okamoto
	Filename        : draft-okamoto-ccamp-midori-gmpls-extension-reqs-00.txt
	Pages           : 6
	Date            : 2011-06-27

        This document discusses some of extensions required in existing GMPLS
        OSPF routing protocol, RSVP signaling protocol, and LMP to support
        the energy efficient traffic engineering technology.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-okamoto-ccamp-midori-gmpls-extension-reqs-00.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-okamoto-ccamp-midori-gmpls-extension-reqs-00.txt
_______________________________________________
I-D-Announce mailing list
I-D-Announce@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt



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    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1">
  </head>
  <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
    <br>
    Hi CCAMPers,<br>
    <br>
    New GMPLS Extension Requirements for Energy Efficient Traffic
    Engineering<br>
    has bee upload as
    draft-okamoto-ccamp-midori-gmpls-extension-reqs-00.txt<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-okamoto-ccamp-midori-gmpls-extension-reqs-00.txt">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-okamoto-ccamp-midori-gmpls-extension-reqs-00.txt</a><br>
    <br>
    For more information about "MiDORi GMPLS", please see
    <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://midori.yamanaka.ics.keio.ac.jp/">http://midori.yamanaka.ics.keio.ac.jp/</a><br>
    <br>
    Comments and feedback are appreciated.<br>
    <br>
    Thank you,<br>
    <br>
    Satoru Okamoto<br>
    <br>
    Department of Information and Computer Science,<br>
    Faculty of Science and Technology, Keio University<br>
    3-14-1, Hiyoshi, Kohoku-ku, <br>
    Yokohama-shi 223-8522, Japan<br>
    Tel: +81 45 563 1151 ext.48241, Fax: +81 45 560 1262<br>
    E-mail: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:okamoto@ieee.org">okamoto@ieee.org</a><br>
    <br>
    -------- Original Message --------
    <table class="moz-email-headers-table" border="0" cellpadding="0"
      cellspacing="0">
      <tbody>
        <tr>
          <th valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap">Subject: </th>
          <td>I-D Action:
            draft-okamoto-ccamp-midori-gmpls-extension-reqs-00.txt</td>
        </tr>
        <tr>
          <th valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap">Date: </th>
          <td>Mon, 27 Jun 2011 07:49:59 -0700</td>
        </tr>
        <tr>
          <th valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap">From: </th>
          <td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a></td>
        </tr>
        <tr>
          <th valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap">Reply-To:
          </th>
          <td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a></td>
        </tr>
        <tr>
          <th valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap">To: </th>
          <td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org">i-d-announce@ietf.org</a></td>
        </tr>
      </tbody>
    </table>
    <br>
    <br>
    <pre>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.

	Title           : Requirements of GMPLS Extensions for Energy Efficient Traffic Engineering
	Author(s)       : Satoru Okamoto
	Filename        : draft-okamoto-ccamp-midori-gmpls-extension-reqs-00.txt
	Pages           : 6
	Date            : 2011-06-27

       This document discusses some of extensions required in existing GMPLS
       OSPF routing protocol, RSVP signaling protocol, and LMP to support
       the energy efficient traffic engineering technology.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-okamoto-ccamp-midori-gmpls-extension-reqs-00.txt">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-okamoto-ccamp-midori-gmpls-extension-reqs-00.txt</a>

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/</a>

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-okamoto-ccamp-midori-gmpls-extension-reqs-00.txt">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-okamoto-ccamp-midori-gmpls-extension-reqs-00.txt</a>
_______________________________________________
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<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:I-D-Announce@ietf.org">I-D-Announce@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce</a>
Internet-Draft directories: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html">http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html</a>
or <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt</a>

</pre>
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From gregb@grotto-networking.com  Mon Jun 27 08:54:55 2011
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From: Greg Bernstein <gregb@grotto-networking.com>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] TR: New	Version	Notificationfordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt
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Hi Pierre and co-authors, see below.
GB
On 6/22/2011 6:26 AM, PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) wrote:
> Hi Greg,
>
> I clearly get your will of understanding how the evaluation in section 5 was conducted, and
> I've noticed you were concerned by 2 points:
>    - 1 the node model and node diagram. The way we have conducted the study, we refered to generic types of nodes (independant of the node internal structure), as we wanted the study not to be specific to a given product or architecture. Basically we have taken values for the items that are modeled by the information model. Though, for each case, we can provide multiple architectures (then diagrams) which would provide the same hypothesis. Our text in section 5.2 is certainly perfectible, hence if when reading it some points are either unclear or lacking to help the reader understand, please let us know which ones. Section 5.2 is quoted below.
The WSON information model and encoding drafts are concerned with the 
switching behavior of a node and accessibility to node resources. In the 
WSON framework, and encoding documents we show diagrams that convey the 
essence of different architectures on these properties. These diagrams 
are fairly far removed from an actual schematic diagram but show how the 
nodes internal structure influences both switching behavior and resource 
accessibility.

A key aspect of WSON work is to model the internal structure of the 
nodes in a suitably summarized fashion. Hence, the importance of 
furnishing a diagram of the nodes that you use in your examples.  You do 
not need to draw all the details, but rather something on the level of 
Figures 4 and 5 of the WSON Framework (RFC6163).
Please furnish a diagram of your lowest node degree case if you still 
think that there is a problem with the current working group drafts.
>    - 2 the encodings as used for current drafts. I have to say I fail in understanding what you mean there. The encodings are provided in the drafts, we have used the drafts indications to determine those, as you are the editor of this draft, I would guess you would know how to determine those. Apart from tiny details, there is no much degree of freedom  in the way of encoding a given structure (which is to be hoped for in the frame of standardized protocol extensions). Can you help me then understand your point ?
In the WSON encoding draft (draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-encoding-11.txt) 
Appendix A, and in the General Constraint encoding draft 
(draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-05.txt) Appendix A we 
furnish high level block diagrams representing the internal structure of 
nodes that influence both switching capability and resource 
accessibility, then give examples of efficient use of the encodings and 
show them explicitly.

It is not true that there "there is no much degree of freedom  in the 
way of encoding a given structure" in GMPLS standards. Many times there 
are multiple ways to achieve the same thing, with some much less 
efficient than others. For example GMPLS signaling there are multiple 
ways to encode a Label Set, which can result in huge variations in the 
amount of space consumed. Without seeing the encodings that go with the 
node architecture (also not furnished) it is impossible to say whether 
the methods defined in the current working group drafts have been used 
as intended.

Please furnish the encodings that you used for your examples if you 
still think there is an issue with the current WG drafts. There is no 
way for us to figure out how you arrived at your numbers or figure out 
whether there is an actual problem to be solved. A level of detail on 
the order of that given in the appendices of the current working group 
drafts is sufficient.

>     o  Node Degree Connectivity: 4, 8 and 16.
>
>     o  WDM capacity: 100 wavelengths.
>
>     o  Switching capacity.  Defines the total node switching capability
>        and is calculated as Node Degree Connectivity x 100 wavelengths.
>
>     o  Regeneration Capability.  We assume a value of 5% of the total
>        switching capacity.
>
>     o  Add/Drop Capability.  We assume a typical value of 25% of the
>        switching capability.  So in the average up to 30 wavelengths per
>        incoming fiber can be added/dropped within the optical node.
>
>     o  Resource pool setup and capabilities.  A physical resource pool
>        contains a mix of Add/Drop and Regeneration capabilities.  This
>        has the effect of increasing the number of resource pool
>        advertized.  Resource pool can be fully flexible (connected to any
>        port), partial (only to some port) or Fixed (can only be connected
>        to one direction).  This parameter influences the complexity of
>        the connectivity matrix.
>
>     o  Number of Regenerator types.  For a given node the number of OEO
>        capabilities is limited, it is typically decided by the type of
>        electrical equipment and optical modules (emitting laser and
>        optical receiver).
>
>     o  Blocking Ratio.  The Spatial/Spectral blocking ratio indicates how
>        much port-based/wavelength based blocking a node is experiencing.
>
>     For example considering the typical design it results in the
>     following static layout:
>
>     o  3 OEO pools each having 3 Resource Block inside.
>
>     o  Connectivity Matrix: (8+30+30) 64x64 if considering one
>        connectivity matrix.  Ingress=64x3, Egress=3x64 (considering the
>        OEO access with a multiple-wavelength link).
>
>     The following types of nodes and node designs were considered in this
>     evaluation:
>
>                            Node Types and designs
>
>                   Node Type       Nodal Degree Pool Type Blocking
>              Small(S), Flexible         4       Partial    None
>             Small(S), Fixed(port)       4        Fixed     Port
>            Small(S), Fixed(label)       4       Partial   Lambda
>              Middle(M), Flexible        8       Flexible   None
>              Large(L), Flexible        16       Flexible   None
>
>     For the small nodes, 5 different type of regenerators are considered,
>     for the Middle and Large ones 10 different type of regenerators are
>     considered.  Based on those designs we derived the following
>     important figures:
>
>     o  Number of resourcePool : depends on the pool type and
>        connectivity, which depend on the port blocking and number of Add/
>        Drop and Regenerator capacity.
>
>     o  Number of resourceBlock.  There is two numbers to be considered
>        here : the number of resourceBlock for a given resource pool (this
>        document) and total number of resourceBlock
>        ([I-D.ietf-ccamp-rwa-info]).  In this document the number of
>        resource block within a resource pool is, worst case, the number
>        of possible regenerator types, whereas in
>        [I-D.ietf-ccamp-rwa-info] the number of resource block depends on
>        the number of OEO types and on the connectivity.
>
>     o  Number of connectivity matrix/number of pairs/link per pairs.  The
>        number of sub-matrix increase depending on the port blocking
>        ratio, the number of pair in one connectivity matrix depends on
>        the wavelength restrictions.  Those two criteria do not depend on
>        which information model is considered.  The number of link per set
>        is increased by the number of resource pool in this draft.
>
>     Those numbers for each node are shown in the following table
> (corrected the number of pools)
>
>                  Details of information elements per node
>
>          Node Type    Resource Pools Resource Blocks Matrix/Pair/Links
>         S, Flexible          6            5 (30)       1/1/10 (1/1/1)
>        S, Fixed(port)       12            5 (60)       4/4/4 (4/4/1)
>       S, Fixed(label)        6            5 (30)       4/1/10 (4/1/1)
>         M, Flexible          3           10 (30)       1/1/11 (1/1/1)
>         L, Flexible          5           10 (50)       1/1/21 (1/1/1)
>
>         Nota: Values for [I-D.ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode] are between
>                                   brackets
>
>   As the preceding table may be uneasy to read, here is an alternative one:
>
>                   Details of information elements per node
>
>                          #Device            #ResProp
>     Node Type    #Pools   Type    #Blocks     TLV     Matrix/Pair/Links
>    S, Flexible      6       5       30       5 (25)     1/1/10 (1/1/1)
>   S, Fixed(port)   12       5       60       5 (45)     4/4/4  (4/4/1)
> S, Fixed(label)    6       5       30       5 (25)     4/1/10 (4/1/1)
>    M, Flexible      3      10       30      10 (30)     1/1/11 (1/1/1)
>    L, Flexible      5      10       50      10 (40)     1/1/21 (1/1/1)
>
>         Nota: Values for [I-D.ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode] are between
>                                   brackets
>
> Regards,
>
> Pierre
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Greg Bernstein
> Envoyé : vendredi 17 juin 2011 19:53
> À : ccamp@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version Notificationfordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt
>
> This issue can be readily resolved if the  diagrams and current WG draft sub-TLV encoding use in sections 5.2 and 5.3 of peloso-3 is given.
> There are four authors of this document, hence somebody must have a diagram of the switch and sub-TLV encodings that generated the numbers used in the evaluation. If you can furnish that then I will show either
> (a) That the system of interest can be efficiently encoded with the current WG drafts and current GMPLS/OSPF mechanisms.
> or
> (b) That a minimalistic extension to the WSON encoding draft along with current GMPLS/OSPF extensions can be used to efficiently encode this system.
>
> Note that the purpose of this exercise is to solve a potential problem with the WSON WG drafts and if enough folks are concerned about a potential problem we can figure out how to solve it.  The purpose is not a general re-write of these drafts. Note that during the development of the WSON WG drafts we shared all our test cases freely via my website, informal presentations at previous IETF meetings, and in papers published in journals. I don't seen any reason for the authors of
> peloso-3 to keep their test cases secret when asking for changes to CCAMP WG drafts to accommodate it.
>
> Greg
>
> On 6/17/2011 9:20 AM, Julien Meuric wrote:
>> Hi Young.
>>
>> You are right on one thing: operators try to minimize costs. This is
>> exactly why ROADMs are first deployed with 10 Gb/s wavelengths, 40
>> Gb/s when transponders become cost-efficient enough, and then 100
>> Gb/s, which will likely become cost-efficient later... Obviously,
>> minimizing cost mean deploying over existing things, not replacing;
>> therefore we end up with many types of regenerators, due to the
>> various bit-rates and modulation format existing out there.
>>
>> I personally believe that a few-year-old long haul network will end up
>> beyond Cyril's "reasonable figures" quite easily.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Julien
>>
>>
>> Le 17/06/2011 17:55, Leeyoung a écrit :
>>>   Cyril,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   I think your example is a corner case, which is not typical case. We
>>> should not base this kind of highly theoretical corner case as the
>>> base case for your analysis. We are dealing with WSON switching
>>> enabled ROADM networks, not necessarily dealing with legacy DWDM
>>> system. Please also note that the typical WSON switching nodes are
>>> transparent nodes. Only some of the nodes may have Regen elements
>>> ---as I mentioned in the previous email, the operators try to
>>> minimize the use of Regen's due to its high cost.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Please see my other comment in-line.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Thanks.
>>>
>>>   Young
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   -------------------------
>>>
>>>   *From:*Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich)
>>> [mailto:cyril.margaria@nsn.com] **
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Hi Young Lee, Ccamper's,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Reducing the type of regenerator makes sense but mixing regenerator
>>> type makes also sense, as you would try to avoid having only
>>> 40G-capable 3R when you can go for a cheaper 10G regenerator,
>>> depending on your demands.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   In Greenfield deployments single rate makes sense, in an existing
>>> networks having multi-rate (2) support with different electrical
>>> module may be less common but should still be supported.
>>>
>>>   This kind of network would need 6 description for the processing
>>> capability alone. The total number of resource description need to
>>> be higher, as in the info model the description of a regenerator
>>> include the number of resource. Each time the connectivity imply a
>>> different number of regenerator are grouped together a separate
>>> ResourceBlockInfo should be used (Separating connectivity and
>>> regenerator setup would help here).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   *YOUNG>>  Your point on "separating connectivity and regenerator
>>> setup  would help here" is exactly the encoding principles of the
>>> current WG  adopted encoding drafts. Then I don't clearly understand
>>> what the  Pierre's draft are trying to do. *
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Best case would see indeed 0-2 type of regenerator, intermediate
>>> actual deployments can see 6 types of regenerator, we also considered
>>> looking at possible evolutions, 10 being in our opinion a reasonable
>>> number.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   I hope it could help you understand better what is considered in the
>>> draft. Those consideration will be more detailed in the next revision
>>> of the draft.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Best Regards
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   *From:*ext Leeyoung [mailto:leeyoung@huawei.com] **
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Hi Cyril,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   I think your analysis below is very theoretical and a bit out of
>>> reality in WSON node configuration.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   We are dealing with wavelength level so that OTUk level is
>>> transparent to WSON. In typical optical switch node configuration in
>>> WSON, we don't simply mix up all possible kinds of regenerators per
>>> each modulation type. It is true that we have many modulation types
>>> for each rate and the model should support all possibility. But this
>>> does not mean we have all "10 types" at the same time in a node
>>> design. As you know, regenerator is one of the most expensive WSON
>>> elements and having many types in a node is not economical and not
>>> realistic.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   As far as my understanding of node design, we don't have such thing
>>> as you said in your email to support 10+ different types of
>>> regenerators in a node. In a typical commercially deployed WSON
>>> switching node, we have one rate (e.g., 10G or 40G, or possibly
>>>   others) and one regenerator type for each rate. If we have
>>> multi-rate  support, we may have two rates and thus two regenerators
>>> in a typical  WSON switching node.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   I would be interested in the node design diagram that supports 10+
>>> different regenerators at the same time. I haven't seen such one
>>> myself yet.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Please also note that the WSON model has to support transparent node
>>> configuration, which we don't have "regen" element.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Best Regards,
>>>
>>>   Young
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   -------------------------
>>>
>>>   *From:*ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] *On
>>> Behalf Of *Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich) **
>>>
>>>   Hi Greg, CCAMPers,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Regarding point (2), using one regen type per OTUk (k in [[1..4]]),
>>> and 2 type of laser module per reach makes already 8 type of oeo
>>> properties. Adding slightly different hw types (i.e old board with
>>> old modulation and a more recent with DP-QPSK) makes an easy 10 types
>>> for a big node.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Without going into product families this sounded reasonable (for
>>> instance a typical product would indicate supports for 10 and 40g
>>> with different modulation, so lets say 2 sub-board type, which makes
>>>   6 regen type); The introduction of OTU4 and later OTU5 will increase
>>> the types of regenerator supported.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   The size expansion is indeed related to the number of regenerator
>>> type, resource blocks contain connectivity, oeo-feature and how the
>>> blocks are grouped.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   The other point would indeed clarify the document, the setup of
>>> resource pools/blocks is shown in Figure 1, a resource pool
>>> aggregating the connectivity for several resource blocks.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Best regards.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   *From:*ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] *On
>>> Behalf Of *ext Greg Bernstein **
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Hi Pierre and draft authors, can you provide: (1) Diagrams of the
>>> example switches particularly with respect to the structure of the
>>> resource pools/blocks. (2) Explanation of why so many different types
>>> (not number) of regenerators in an optical node. You site 5 different
>>> types for a small node and 10 for a large node. Can you point to a
>>> product family? I would think 0-1 types of regenerators for a small
>>> node and at maybe 2 for a large node or nodes that deal with long
>>> haul and metro types modulations. (3) Can you provide the example
>>> encodings such as done in the appendix of the encoding document so we
>>> can understand where the expansion is taking place.
>>>
>>>   It seems that the size expansions is directly related to the number
>>> of regenerator types, but hard to tell from this document. Are there
>>> any other WSON interested parties that have a need for so many
>>> regenerator types?
>>>
>>>   Cheers
>>>
>>>   Greg B.
>>>
>>>   On 6/10/2011 7:19 AM, PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) wrote:
>>>
>>>   Hi Ccampers,
>>>
>>>   During Prague meeting I was asked to provide a draft detailing the
>>> solution we were presenting then concerning OSPF-TE extensions for
>>> Wavelength Switched Optical Networks (see point 10 of ccamp
>>> minutes). Julien, Giovanni, Cyril and I have tackled this work of
>>> providing a complete description of the solution with commonalities
>>> and deltas from the existing solution held in the following drafts: -
>>>   draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-11 -
>>>   draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-04 -
>>> draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-00 -
>>>   draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-11 -
>>>   draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-04
>>>
>>>   Feedback from the working group is welcome.
>>>
>>>   To trigger this feedback, this draft holds inside section 5 a
>>> numerical study on the amount of static and dynamic information to be
>>> flooded. This study was conducted on various typical WSON nodes and
>>> compares the size of the LSAs between the two solutions.
>>>
>>>   Regards,
>>>
>>>   - Pierre
>>>
>>>
>>>   _______________________________________________ CCAMP mailing list
>>> CCAMP@ietf.org<mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   -- =================================================== Dr Greg
>>> Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   _______________________________________________ CCAMP mailing list
>>> CCAMP@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>
>>
>
> --
> ===================================================
> Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>
>


-- 
===================================================
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237



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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] TR:	New	Version	Notificationfordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt
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Hi Pierre,

Please recall the WG chair's request to you in the last IETF meeting that t=
he information you are to provide has to be comprehensive and complete so t=
hat others can understand the points you are making.=20

Having reviewed your document, I think you need to provide the diagram of t=
he node configuration you used as the basis of your analysis in the similar=
 fashion to the current encoding draft.=20

You mentioned that "For the small nodes, 5 different type of regenerators a=
re considered, for the Middle and Large ones 10 different type of regenerat=
ors are considered." -- Please provide your node diagrams for these cases s=
o that we can provide our analysis. Until you provide the exact node config=
uration with these many OEO elements, it is not possible for us to proceed =
with the meaning comparisons.=20

Regards,
Young

-----Original Message-----
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of P=
ELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE)
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 8:26 AM
To: Greg Bernstein; ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version Notificationfordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson=
-ospf-oeo-03.txt

Hi Greg,

I clearly get your will of understanding how the evaluation in section 5 wa=
s conducted, and
I've noticed you were concerned by 2 points:
  - 1 the node model and node diagram. The way we have conducted the study,=
 we refered to generic types of nodes (independant of the node internal str=
ucture), as we wanted the study not to be specific to a given product or ar=
chitecture. Basically we have taken values for the items that are modeled b=
y the information model. Though, for each case, we can provide multiple arc=
hitectures (then diagrams) which would provide the same hypothesis. Our tex=
t in section 5.2 is certainly perfectible, hence if when reading it some po=
ints are either unclear or lacking to help the reader understand, please le=
t us know which ones. Section 5.2 is quoted below.
  - 2 the encodings as used for current drafts. I have to say I fail in und=
erstanding what you mean there. The encodings are provided in the drafts, w=
e have used the drafts indications to determine those, as you are the edito=
r of this draft, I would guess you would know how to determine those. Apart=
 from tiny details, there is no much degree of freedom  in the way of encod=
ing a given structure (which is to be hoped for in the frame of standardize=
d protocol extensions). Can you help me then understand your point ?

   o  Node Degree Connectivity: 4, 8 and 16.

   o  WDM capacity: 100 wavelengths.

   o  Switching capacity.  Defines the total node switching capability
      and is calculated as Node Degree Connectivity x 100 wavelengths.

   o  Regeneration Capability.  We assume a value of 5% of the total
      switching capacity.

   o  Add/Drop Capability.  We assume a typical value of 25% of the
      switching capability.  So in the average up to 30 wavelengths per
      incoming fiber can be added/dropped within the optical node.

   o  Resource pool setup and capabilities.  A physical resource pool
      contains a mix of Add/Drop and Regeneration capabilities.  This
      has the effect of increasing the number of resource pool
      advertized.  Resource pool can be fully flexible (connected to any
      port), partial (only to some port) or Fixed (can only be connected
      to one direction).  This parameter influences the complexity of
      the connectivity matrix.

   o  Number of Regenerator types.  For a given node the number of OEO
      capabilities is limited, it is typically decided by the type of
      electrical equipment and optical modules (emitting laser and
      optical receiver).

   o  Blocking Ratio.  The Spatial/Spectral blocking ratio indicates how
      much port-based/wavelength based blocking a node is experiencing.

   For example considering the typical design it results in the
   following static layout:

   o  3 OEO pools each having 3 Resource Block inside.

   o  Connectivity Matrix: (8+30+30) 64x64 if considering one
      connectivity matrix.  Ingress=3D64x3, Egress=3D3x64 (considering the
      OEO access with a multiple-wavelength link).

   The following types of nodes and node designs were considered in this
   evaluation:

                          Node Types and designs

                 Node Type       Nodal Degree Pool Type Blocking
            Small(S), Flexible         4       Partial    None
           Small(S), Fixed(port)       4        Fixed     Port
          Small(S), Fixed(label)       4       Partial   Lambda
            Middle(M), Flexible        8       Flexible   None
            Large(L), Flexible        16       Flexible   None

   For the small nodes, 5 different type of regenerators are considered,
   for the Middle and Large ones 10 different type of regenerators are
   considered.  Based on those designs we derived the following
   important figures:

   o  Number of resourcePool : depends on the pool type and
      connectivity, which depend on the port blocking and number of Add/
      Drop and Regenerator capacity.

   o  Number of resourceBlock.  There is two numbers to be considered
      here : the number of resourceBlock for a given resource pool (this
      document) and total number of resourceBlock
      ([I-D.ietf-ccamp-rwa-info]).  In this document the number of
      resource block within a resource pool is, worst case, the number
      of possible regenerator types, whereas in
      [I-D.ietf-ccamp-rwa-info] the number of resource block depends on
      the number of OEO types and on the connectivity.

   o  Number of connectivity matrix/number of pairs/link per pairs.  The
      number of sub-matrix increase depending on the port blocking
      ratio, the number of pair in one connectivity matrix depends on
      the wavelength restrictions.  Those two criteria do not depend on
      which information model is considered.  The number of link per set
      is increased by the number of resource pool in this draft.

   Those numbers for each node are shown in the following table
(corrected the number of pools)

                Details of information elements per node

        Node Type    Resource Pools Resource Blocks Matrix/Pair/Links
       S, Flexible          6            5 (30)       1/1/10 (1/1/1)
      S, Fixed(port)       12            5 (60)       4/4/4 (4/4/1)
     S, Fixed(label)        6            5 (30)       4/1/10 (4/1/1)
       M, Flexible          3           10 (30)       1/1/11 (1/1/1)
       L, Flexible          5           10 (50)       1/1/21 (1/1/1)

       Nota: Values for [I-D.ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode] are between
                                 brackets

 As the preceding table may be uneasy to read, here is an alternative one:

                 Details of information elements per node

                        #Device            #ResProp
   Node Type    #Pools   Type    #Blocks     TLV     Matrix/Pair/Links
  S, Flexible      6       5       30       5 (25)     1/1/10 (1/1/1)
 S, Fixed(port)   12       5       60       5 (45)     4/4/4  (4/4/1)
S, Fixed(label)    6       5       30       5 (25)     4/1/10 (4/1/1)
  M, Flexible      3      10       30      10 (30)     1/1/11 (1/1/1)
  L, Flexible      5      10       50      10 (40)     1/1/21 (1/1/1)

       Nota: Values for [I-D.ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode] are between
                                 brackets

Regards,

Pierre

-----Message d'origine-----
De : ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de G=
reg Bernstein
Envoy=E9 : vendredi 17 juin 2011 19:53
=C0 : ccamp@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version Notificationfordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-=
ospf-oeo-03.txt

This issue can be readily resolved if the  diagrams and current WG draft su=
b-TLV encoding use in sections 5.2 and 5.3 of peloso-3 is given.
There are four authors of this document, hence somebody must have a diagram=
 of the switch and sub-TLV encodings that generated the numbers used in the=
 evaluation. If you can furnish that then I will show either
(a) That the system of interest can be efficiently encoded with the current=
 WG drafts and current GMPLS/OSPF mechanisms.
or
(b) That a minimalistic extension to the WSON encoding draft along with cur=
rent GMPLS/OSPF extensions can be used to efficiently encode this system.

Note that the purpose of this exercise is to solve a potential problem with=
 the WSON WG drafts and if enough folks are concerned about a potential pro=
blem we can figure out how to solve it.  The purpose is not a general re-wr=
ite of these drafts. Note that during the development of the WSON WG drafts=
 we shared all our test cases freely via my website, informal presentations=
 at previous IETF meetings, and in papers published in journals. I don't se=
en any reason for the authors of
peloso-3 to keep their test cases secret when asking for changes to CCAMP W=
G drafts to accommodate it.

Greg

On 6/17/2011 9:20 AM, Julien Meuric wrote:
> Hi Young.
>
> You are right on one thing: operators try to minimize costs. This is
> exactly why ROADMs are first deployed with 10 Gb/s wavelengths, 40
> Gb/s when transponders become cost-efficient enough, and then 100
> Gb/s, which will likely become cost-efficient later... Obviously,
> minimizing cost mean deploying over existing things, not replacing;
> therefore we end up with many types of regenerators, due to the
> various bit-rates and modulation format existing out there.
>
> I personally believe that a few-year-old long haul network will end up
> beyond Cyril's "reasonable figures" quite easily.
>
> Regards,
>
> Julien
>
>
> Le 17/06/2011 17:55, Leeyoung a =E9crit :
>>
>>  Cyril,
>>
>>
>>
>>  I think your example is a corner case, which is not typical case. We
>> should not base this kind of highly theoretical corner case as the
>> base case for your analysis. We are dealing with WSON switching
>> enabled ROADM networks, not necessarily dealing with legacy DWDM
>> system. Please also note that the typical WSON switching nodes are
>> transparent nodes. Only some of the nodes may have Regen elements
>> ---as I mentioned in the previous email, the operators try to
>> minimize the use of Regen's due to its high cost.
>>
>>
>>
>>  Please see my other comment in-line.
>>
>>
>>
>>  Thanks.
>>
>>  Young
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  -------------------------
>>
>>  *From:*Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich)
>> [mailto:cyril.margaria@nsn.com] **
>>
>>
>>
>>  Hi Young Lee, Ccamper's,
>>
>>
>>
>>  Reducing the type of regenerator makes sense but mixing regenerator
>> type makes also sense, as you would try to avoid having only
>> 40G-capable 3R when you can go for a cheaper 10G regenerator,
>> depending on your demands.
>>
>>
>>
>>  In Greenfield deployments single rate makes sense, in an existing
>> networks having multi-rate (2) support with different electrical
>> module may be less common but should still be supported.
>>
>>  This kind of network would need 6 description for the processing
>> capability alone. The total number of resource description need to
>> be higher, as in the info model the description of a regenerator
>> include the number of resource. Each time the connectivity imply a
>> different number of regenerator are grouped together a separate
>> ResourceBlockInfo should be used (Separating connectivity and
>> regenerator setup would help here).
>>
>>
>>
>>  *YOUNG>> Your point on "separating connectivity and regenerator
>> setup  would help here" is exactly the encoding principles of the
>> current WG  adopted encoding drafts. Then I don't clearly understand
>> what the  Pierre's draft are trying to do. *
>>
>>
>>
>>  Best case would see indeed 0-2 type of regenerator, intermediate
>> actual deployments can see 6 types of regenerator, we also considered
>> looking at possible evolutions, 10 being in our opinion a reasonable
>> number.
>>
>>
>>
>>  I hope it could help you understand better what is considered in the
>> draft. Those consideration will be more detailed in the next revision
>> of the draft.
>>
>>
>>
>>  Best Regards
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  *From:*ext Leeyoung [mailto:leeyoung@huawei.com] **
>>
>>
>>
>>  Hi Cyril,
>>
>>
>>
>>  I think your analysis below is very theoretical and a bit out of
>> reality in WSON node configuration.
>>
>>
>>
>>  We are dealing with wavelength level so that OTUk level is
>> transparent to WSON. In typical optical switch node configuration in
>> WSON, we don't simply mix up all possible kinds of regenerators per
>> each modulation type. It is true that we have many modulation types
>> for each rate and the model should support all possibility. But this
>> does not mean we have all "10 types" at the same time in a node
>> design. As you know, regenerator is one of the most expensive WSON
>> elements and having many types in a node is not economical and not
>> realistic.
>>
>>
>>
>>  As far as my understanding of node design, we don't have such thing
>> as you said in your email to support 10+ different types of
>> regenerators in a node. In a typical commercially deployed WSON
>> switching node, we have one rate (e.g., 10G or 40G, or possibly
>>  others) and one regenerator type for each rate. If we have
>> multi-rate  support, we may have two rates and thus two regenerators
>> in a typical  WSON switching node.
>>
>>
>>
>>  I would be interested in the node design diagram that supports 10+
>> different regenerators at the same time. I haven't seen such one
>> myself yet.
>>
>>
>>
>>  Please also note that the WSON model has to support transparent node
>> configuration, which we don't have "regen" element.
>>
>>
>>
>>  Best Regards,
>>
>>  Young
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  -------------------------
>>
>>  *From:*ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] *On
>> Behalf Of *Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich) **
>>
>>  Hi Greg, CCAMPers,
>>
>>
>>
>>  Regarding point (2), using one regen type per OTUk (k in [[1..4]]),
>> and 2 type of laser module per reach makes already 8 type of oeo
>> properties. Adding slightly different hw types (i.e old board with
>> old modulation and a more recent with DP-QPSK) makes an easy 10 types
>> for a big node.
>>
>>
>>
>>  Without going into product families this sounded reasonable (for
>> instance a typical product would indicate supports for 10 and 40g
>> with different modulation, so lets say 2 sub-board type, which makes
>>  6 regen type); The introduction of OTU4 and later OTU5 will increase
>> the types of regenerator supported.
>>
>>
>>
>>  The size expansion is indeed related to the number of regenerator
>> type, resource blocks contain connectivity, oeo-feature and how the
>> blocks are grouped.
>>
>>
>>
>>  The other point would indeed clarify the document, the setup of
>> resource pools/blocks is shown in Figure 1, a resource pool
>> aggregating the connectivity for several resource blocks.
>>
>>
>>
>>  Best regards.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  *From:*ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] *On
>> Behalf Of *ext Greg Bernstein **
>>
>>
>>
>>  Hi Pierre and draft authors, can you provide: (1) Diagrams of the
>> example switches particularly with respect to the structure of the
>> resource pools/blocks. (2) Explanation of why so many different types
>> (not number) of regenerators in an optical node. You site 5 different
>> types for a small node and 10 for a large node. Can you point to a
>> product family? I would think 0-1 types of regenerators for a small
>> node and at maybe 2 for a large node or nodes that deal with long
>> haul and metro types modulations. (3) Can you provide the example
>> encodings such as done in the appendix of the encoding document so we
>> can understand where the expansion is taking place.
>>
>>  It seems that the size expansions is directly related to the number
>> of regenerator types, but hard to tell from this document. Are there
>> any other WSON interested parties that have a need for so many
>> regenerator types?
>>
>>  Cheers
>>
>>  Greg B.
>>
>>  On 6/10/2011 7:19 AM, PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) wrote:
>>
>>  Hi Ccampers,
>>
>>  During Prague meeting I was asked to provide a draft detailing the
>> solution we were presenting then concerning OSPF-TE extensions for
>> Wavelength Switched Optical Networks (see point 10 of ccamp
>> minutes). Julien, Giovanni, Cyril and I have tackled this work of
>> providing a complete description of the solution with commonalities
>> and deltas from the existing solution held in the following drafts: -
>>  draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-11 -
>>  draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-04 -
>> draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-00 -
>>  draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-11 -
>>  draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-04
>>
>>  Feedback from the working group is welcome.
>>
>>  To trigger this feedback, this draft holds inside section 5 a
>> numerical study on the amount of static and dynamic information to be
>> flooded. This study was conducted on various typical WSON nodes and
>> compares the size of the LSAs between the two solutions.
>>
>>  Regards,
>>
>>  - Pierre
>>
>>
>>  _______________________________________________ CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org <mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>
>>
>>
>>  -- =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D Dr Greg
>> Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237
>>
>>
>>
>>  _______________________________________________ CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>
>


--
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237


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Thanks Pietro and Sergio for starting this off.

Hi CCampers,

We would like to provide more context to multi-stage label approach for bet=
ter understanding.  OTN is inherently a hierarchical network, and there are=
/will be cases where service ODU has to go through mandatory creation of mo=
re than one layer because of various technical/economic reasons. We are lis=
ting here requirements for supporting services over hierarchical OTN networ=
k.


1.      [R1] Support signaling mechanism to instantiate ODUj service layer =
on a ODUk link via single stage muxing.



A ODUj LSP could involve zero (j=3Dk) or one stage (j<k) multiplexing on a =
given ODUk link. Here both Control-plane and Data-plane entities are create=
d for the ODUj service layer. ODUk link could be a point-to-point OTUk link=
 or a H-LSP.



2.      [R2] Support signaling mechanism to instantiate one or more interme=
diate layers on a ODUk link in order to support the ODUj service layer.



A ODUj LSP could involve two or more stage multiplexing on a given ODUk lin=
k. These intermediate layers can be implicitly created as a part of ODUj se=
rvice LSP creation. In this case, both controlplane and dataplane entities =
will be created for the ODUj service layer. However, intermediate ODU layer=
(s) (implicitly created) will have dataplane representation only.



3.      [R3] Support signaling mechanism to instantiate ODUj service layer =
on a ODUk link where one or more intermediate ODU layers may be pre-existin=
g.



A ODUj LSP could involve two or more stage multiplexing on a given ODUk lin=
k. These intermediate layers may be pre-existing  as a result of another LS=
P creation on the same ODU hierarchy or explicitly configured through manag=
ement interface.



4.      [R4] Support signaling mechanism where ODUj service LSP creation ma=
y involve varying mux hierarchies on each hop



An end-to-end ODUj service LSP creation may involve zero or more stage ODU =
multiplexing on every hop in the path. Basically,the scenarios discussed in=
 R1 to R3 could be associated with any of the hops involved.



5.      [R5] Support signaling mechanism for egress control of OTN interfac=
es



An egress interface of a ODUj LSP could involve single or multiple stage mu=
ltiplexing. Egress Label sub-object defined in [RFC-4003] must be used to s=
ignal hierarchical multiplexing information pertaining to the egress interf=
ace of the LSP.



6.      [R6] Support signaling mechanism when ODUj service LSP creation req=
uires induced or manually created H-LSP.

Based on the above requirements, following is the comparison between two dr=
afts under discussion.


Requirement

Draft-Zhang

Draft-Khuzema

R1

Supported

Supported

R2

Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers

Supported without H-LSPs. Achieves scalability and better restoration perfo=
rmance.

R3

Supported using H-LSPs for each non-existing HO-ODU layers

Supported without H-LSPs

R4

Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers

Supported without H-LSPs

R5

Not Supported

Supported

R6

Supported using H-LSP

Supported using H-LSP



Would like to hear opinions.

Authors draft-khuzema


From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of G=
RANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 6:53 PM
To: 'CCAMP'
Subject: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status

Hello CCampers,

Currently two drafts exist for the signaling of LSPs in OTN technology.
The two drafts, namely draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709 and
draft-khuzema-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709, contain a lot of similarities
but are fundamentally different with respect to the support of multi-stage =
technology.

Draft-zhang proposes to deal with multi-stage technology via the usage
of H-LSPs as already defined in RFC6107. With this approach all LSPs
belonging to intermediate layers of a hierarchy are signaled as separate H-=
LSPs.
Monitoring, protection and restoration functionalities are applicable indep=
endently to each LSP.

Draft-khuzema proposes to introduce a new multi-stage label concept so that
a single construct contains labels associated to more then one hierarchical=
 level.
This implies that all level in the OTN  hierarchy with the exclusion of ser=
vice levels
are not visible as single LSPs.
Each layer cannot be independently monitored.
Only the service layer (the layer with the finest granularity) can be prote=
cted or restored.

Advantages and disadvantages of both approaches can be summarized in short,=
 telling that
the H-LSP approach is able to work in any situation while the multi-stage l=
abel approach is suitable
on single hops or similar situations (reached signaling before an H-LSP) bu=
t, when used,
optimizes processing.

As such we perceive the Draft-khuzema approach as an optimization that coul=
d be supported in an optional way.

Before going on with merging of the two drafts we would like to hear opinio=
ns from CCampers.

Pietro & Sergio

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Pietro Vittorio Grandi
Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
Tel: +39 039 686 4930
Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute. That's rel=
ativity.
(A. Einstein)



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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Thanks Pietro and Sergio for starting this off.<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Hi CCampers,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">We would like to provide more context to multi-stage lab=
el approach for better understanding.&nbsp; OTN is inherently a hierarchica=
l network, and there are/will be cases where service ODU has
 to go through mandatory creation of more than one layer because of various=
 technical/economic reasons. We are listing here requirements for supportin=
g services over hierarchical OTN network.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:11=
5%"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times=
 New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:=
115%;background:silver;mso-highlight:silver">[R1]</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%"> Support signaling mechanism to instantiate =
ODUj service layer on a ODUk link via
 single stage muxing. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%">A ODUj LSP could involve zero (j=3Dk) or one stage (j&lt;k) multiplexi=
ng on a given ODUk link. Here both Control-plane and Data-plane entities ar=
e created for the ODUj service layer. ODUk
 link could be a point-to-point OTUk link or a H-LSP.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:11=
5%"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times=
 New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:=
115%;background:silver;mso-highlight:silver">[R2]</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%"> Support signaling mechanism to instantiate =
one or more intermediate layers on a
 ODUk link in order to support the ODUj service layer. <o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%">A ODUj LSP could involve two or more stage multiplexing on a given ODU=
k link. These intermediate layers can be implicitly created as a part of OD=
Uj service LSP creation. In this case,
 both controlplane and dataplane entities will be created for the ODUj serv=
ice layer. However, intermediate ODU layer(s) (implicitly created) will hav=
e dataplane representation only.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:11=
5%"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">3.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times=
 New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:=
115%;background:silver;mso-highlight:silver">[R3]</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%"> Support signaling mechanism to instantiate =
ODUj service layer on a ODUk link where
 one or more intermediate ODU layers may be pre-existing. <o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%">A ODUj LSP could involve two or more stage multiplexing on a given ODU=
k link. These intermediate layers may be pre-existing&nbsp; as a result of =
another LSP creation on the same ODU hierarchy
 or explicitly configured through management interface. <o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:11=
5%"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">4.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times=
 New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:=
115%;background:silver;mso-highlight:silver">[R4]</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%"> Support signaling mechanism where ODUj serv=
ice LSP creation may involve varying
 mux hierarchies on each hop <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%">An end-to-end ODUj service LSP creation may involve zero or more stage=
 ODU multiplexing on every hop in the path. Basically,the scenarios discuss=
ed in R1 to R3 could be associated with
 any of the hops involved.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:11=
5%"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">5.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times=
 New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:=
115%;background:silver;mso-highlight:silver">[R5]</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%"> Support signaling mechanism for egress cont=
rol of OTN interfaces
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%">An egress interface of a ODUj LSP could involve single or multiple sta=
ge multiplexing. Egress Label sub-object defined in [RFC-4003] must be used=
 to signal hierarchical multiplexing
 information pertaining to the egress interface of the LSP.&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:11=
5%"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">6.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times=
 New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:=
115%;background:silver;mso-highlight:silver">[R6]</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%"> Support signaling mechanism when ODUj servi=
ce LSP creation requires induced or
 manually created H-LSP.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Based on the above requirements, following is the compar=
ison between two drafts under discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<table class=3D"MsoNormalTable" border=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=
=3D"0" width=3D"638" style=3D"width:6.65in;border-collapse:collapse">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;background:#C4BC96;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Requirement<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border:solid window=
text 1.0pt;border-left:none;background:#C4BC96;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt"=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Draft-Zhang<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border:solid windowte=
xt 1.0pt;border-left:none;background:#C4BC96;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Draft-Khuzema<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">R1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windo=
wtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border-top:none;borde=
r-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">R2<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windo=
wtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border-top:none;borde=
r-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported without H-LSPs. Achieves scalability and bette=
r restoration performance.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">R3<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windo=
wtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported using H-LSPs for each non-existing HO-ODU laye=
rs
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border-top:none;borde=
r-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported without H-LSPs<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">R4<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windo=
wtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border-top:none;borde=
r-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported without H-LSPs<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">R5<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windo=
wtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Not Supported<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border-top:none;borde=
r-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">R6<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windo=
wtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported using H-LSP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border-top:none;borde=
r-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported using H-LSP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Would like to hear opinions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Authors draft-khuzema<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> ccamp-bo=
unces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 27, 2011 6:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'CCAMP'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Hello CCampers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Currently two drafts exist for the signa=
ling of LSPs in OTN technology.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">The two drafts, namely draft-zhang-ccamp=
-gmpls-evolving-g709 and
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">draft-khuzema-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709=
, contain a lot of similarities<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">but are fundamentally different with res=
pect to the support of multi-stage technology.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Draft-zhang proposes to deal with multi-=
stage technology via the usage<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">of H-LSPs as already defined in RFC6107.=
 With this approach all LSPs<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">belonging to intermediate layers of a hi=
erarchy are signaled as separate H-LSPs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Monitoring, protection and restoration f=
unctionalities are applicable independently to each LSP.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Draft-khuzema proposes to introduce a ne=
w multi-stage label concept so that<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">a single construct contains labels assoc=
iated to more then one hierarchical level.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">This implies that all level in the OTN&n=
bsp; hierarchy with the exclusion of service levels<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">are not visible as single LSPs.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Each layer cannot be independently monit=
ored.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Only the service layer (the layer with t=
he finest granularity) can be protected or restored.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Advantages and disadvantages of both app=
roaches can be summarized in short, telling that<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">the H-LSP approach is able to work in an=
y situation while the multi-stage label approach is suitable
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">on single hops or similar situations (re=
ached signaling before an H-LSP) but, when used,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">optimizes processing.<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">As such we perceive the Draft-khuzema ap=
proach as an optimization that could be supported in an optional way.<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Before going on with merging of the two =
drafts we would like to hear opinions from CCampers.&nbsp; &nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Pietro &amp; Sergio<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Pietro Vittorio Grandi</span><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"=
><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution</s=
pan><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sa=
ns-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)</span><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Tel: &#43;39 039 686 4930</span><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot=
;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-luce=
nt.com</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;=
,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute=
, and it seems like an hour.</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and i=
t seems like a&nbsp; minute. That's relativity.</span><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">(A. Einstein)</span><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tr=
ebuchet MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com  Tue Jun 28 02:21:13 2011
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From: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
To: Khuzema Pithewan <kpithewan@infinera.com>, "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>, 'CCAMP' <ccamp@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 11:21:06 +0200
Thread-Topic: OTN signalling drafts status
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Hi Khuzema,

thanks for the requirements and the comparison.

I have a question and would like to add some requirements.

Q1: Could you please clarify why R2 can be addressed in a more scalable way=
 and with better performances with the multi stage approach?

[R7] Backward compatibility

How could an RFC 6107 based implementation interwork with a node using the =
multistage label only?

[R8] Restoration per layer

Suppose to have a ODU1->ODU3->ODU4 hierarchy that needs to be restored and =
there is no ODU4 link available, but there are 2 ODU3 available on differen=
t paths and i could potentially restore the 2 ODU3 independently. Is this a=
llowed by the multi stage label approach?

Finally, i think that supporting both types of labels could be a good compr=
omise, maybe the single stage one as mandatory and the multi stage as optio=
nal

BR
Daniele

________________________________
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of K=
huzema Pithewan
Sent: marted=EC 28 giugno 2011 6.23
To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); 'CCAMP'
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status

Thanks Pietro and Sergio for starting this off.

Hi CCampers,

We would like to provide more context to multi-stage label approach for bet=
ter understanding.  OTN is inherently a hierarchical network, and there are=
/will be cases where service ODU has to go through mandatory creation of mo=
re than one layer because of various technical/economic reasons. We are lis=
ting here requirements for supporting services over hierarchical OTN networ=
k.


1.      [R1] Support signaling mechanism to instantiate ODUj service layer =
on a ODUk link via single stage muxing.



A ODUj LSP could involve zero (j=3Dk) or one stage (j<k) multiplexing on a =
given ODUk link. Here both Control-plane and Data-plane entities are create=
d for the ODUj service layer. ODUk link could be a point-to-point OTUk link=
 or a H-LSP.



2.      [R2] Support signaling mechanism to instantiate one or more interme=
diate layers on a ODUk link in order to support the ODUj service layer.



A ODUj LSP could involve two or more stage multiplexing on a given ODUk lin=
k. These intermediate layers can be implicitly created as a part of ODUj se=
rvice LSP creation. In this case, both controlplane and dataplane entities =
will be created for the ODUj service layer. However, intermediate ODU layer=
(s) (implicitly created) will have dataplane representation only.



3.      [R3] Support signaling mechanism to instantiate ODUj service layer =
on a ODUk link where one or more intermediate ODU layers may be pre-existin=
g.



A ODUj LSP could involve two or more stage multiplexing on a given ODUk lin=
k. These intermediate layers may be pre-existing  as a result of another LS=
P creation on the same ODU hierarchy or explicitly configured through manag=
ement interface.



4.      [R4] Support signaling mechanism where ODUj service LSP creation ma=
y involve varying mux hierarchies on each hop



An end-to-end ODUj service LSP creation may involve zero or more stage ODU =
multiplexing on every hop in the path. Basically,the scenarios discussed in=
 R1 to R3 could be associated with any of the hops involved.



5.      [R5] Support signaling mechanism for egress control of OTN interfac=
es



An egress interface of a ODUj LSP could involve single or multiple stage mu=
ltiplexing. Egress Label sub-object defined in [RFC-4003] must be used to s=
ignal hierarchical multiplexing information pertaining to the egress interf=
ace of the LSP.



6.      [R6] Support signaling mechanism when ODUj service LSP creation req=
uires induced or manually created H-LSP.

Based on the above requirements, following is the comparison between two dr=
afts under discussion.


Requirement

Draft-Zhang

Draft-Khuzema

R1

Supported

Supported

R2

Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers

Supported without H-LSPs. Achieves scalability and better restoration perfo=
rmance.

R3

Supported using H-LSPs for each non-existing HO-ODU layers

Supported without H-LSPs

R4

Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers

Supported without H-LSPs

R5

Not Supported

Supported

R6

Supported using H-LSP

Supported using H-LSP



Would like to hear opinions.

Authors draft-khuzema


From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of G=
RANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 6:53 PM
To: 'CCAMP'
Subject: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status

Hello CCampers,

Currently two drafts exist for the signaling of LSPs in OTN technology.
The two drafts, namely draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709 and
draft-khuzema-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709, contain a lot of similarities
but are fundamentally different with respect to the support of multi-stage =
technology.

Draft-zhang proposes to deal with multi-stage technology via the usage
of H-LSPs as already defined in RFC6107. With this approach all LSPs
belonging to intermediate layers of a hierarchy are signaled as separate H-=
LSPs.
Monitoring, protection and restoration functionalities are applicable indep=
endently to each LSP.

Draft-khuzema proposes to introduce a new multi-stage label concept so that
a single construct contains labels associated to more then one hierarchical=
 level.
This implies that all level in the OTN  hierarchy with the exclusion of ser=
vice levels
are not visible as single LSPs.
Each layer cannot be independently monitored.
Only the service layer (the layer with the finest granularity) can be prote=
cted or restored.

Advantages and disadvantages of both approaches can be summarized in short,=
 telling that
the H-LSP approach is able to work in any situation while the multi-stage l=
abel approach is suitable
on single hops or similar situations (reached signaling before an H-LSP) bu=
t, when used,
optimizes processing.

As such we perceive the Draft-khuzema approach as an optimization that coul=
d be supported in an optional way.

Before going on with merging of the two drafts we would like to hear opinio=
ns from CCampers.

Pietro & Sergio

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Pietro Vittorio Grandi
Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
Tel: +39 039 686 4930
Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute. That's rel=
ativity.
(A. Einstein)



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<DIV><SPAN class=3D569504108-28062011><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff si=
ze=3D2>Hi=20
Khuzema,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D569504108-28062011><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D569504108-28062011><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff si=
ze=3D2>thanks=20
for the requirements and the comparison.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D569504108-28062011></SPAN><FONT face=3DArial><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2>I<SPAN class=3D569504108-28062011> have&nbsp=
;a question=20
and would like to add some requirements.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D569504108-28062011></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D569504108-28062011>Q1: Could you please clarify why R2 can be addre=
ssed in=20
a</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT=
=20
size=3D2><SPAN class=3D569504108-28062011>&nbsp;more scalable way and with =
better=20
performances with the multi stage approach?</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DI=
V>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D569504108-28062011></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D569504108-28062011>[R7] Backward=20
compatibility</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D569504108-28062011></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D569504108-28062011>How could an RFC 6107 based implementation inter=
work=20
with a node using the multistage label only?</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></D=
IV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D569504108-28062011></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D569504108-28062011>[R8] Restoration per=20
layer</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D569504108-28062011></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D569504108-28062011>Suppose to have a ODU1-&gt;ODU3-&gt;ODU4 hierarc=
hy that=20
needs to be restored and there is no ODU4 link available, but there are 2 O=
DU3=20
available on different paths and i could potentially restore the 2 ODU3=20
independently. Is this allowed by the multi stage label=20
approach?</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D569504108-28062011></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D569504108-28062011>Finally, i think that supporting both types of l=
abels=20
could be a good compromise, maybe the single stage one as mandatory and the=
=20
multi stage as optional</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D569504108-28062011></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D569504108-28062011>BR</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D569504108-28062011>Daniele</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT><FONT fa=
ce=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2=
></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> ccamp-bounces@ietf.org=20
[mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Khuzema=20
Pithewan<BR><B>Sent:</B> marted=EC 28 giugno 2011 6.23<BR><B>To:</B> GRANDI=
,=20
PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); 'CCAMP'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [CCAMP] O=
TN=20
signalling drafts status<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3DWordSection1>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Th=
anks=20
Pietro and Sergio for starting this off.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Hi=
=20
CCampers, <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-seri=
f'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">We=
 would=20
like to provide more context to multi-stage label approach for better=20
understanding.&nbsp; OTN is inherently a hierarchical network, and there=20
are/will be cases where service ODU has to go through mandatory creation of=
 more=20
than one layer because of various technical/economic reasons. We are listin=
g=20
here requirements for supporting services over hierarchical OTN=20
network.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph=20
style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1"><![if !supportList=
s]><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-list: Ignore">1.<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><![endif]><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; BACKGROUND: silver; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; mso-highli=
ght: silver">[R1]</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"> Support signaling mechanism t=
o=20
instantiate ODUj service layer on a ODUk link via single stage muxing.=20
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 11=
5%">A=20
ODUj LSP could involve zero (j=3Dk) or one stage (j&lt;k) multiplexing on a=
 given=20
ODUk link. Here both Control-plane and Data-plane entities are created for =
the=20
ODUj service layer. ODUk link could be a point-to-point OTUk link or a=20
H-LSP.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph=20
style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1"><![if !supportList=
s]><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-list: Ignore">2.<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><![endif]><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; BACKGROUND: silver; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; mso-highli=
ght: silver">[R2]</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"> Support signaling mechanism t=
o=20
instantiate one or more intermediate layers on a ODUk link in order to supp=
ort=20
the ODUj service layer. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 11=
5%">A=20
ODUj LSP could involve two or more stage multiplexing on a given ODUk link.=
=20
These intermediate layers can be implicitly created as a part of ODUj servi=
ce=20
LSP creation. In this case, both controlplane and dataplane entities will b=
e=20
created for the ODUj service layer. However, intermediate ODU layer(s)=20
(implicitly created) will have dataplane representation only.=20
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph=20
style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1"><![if !supportList=
s]><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-list: Ignore">3.<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><![endif]><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; BACKGROUND: silver; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; mso-highli=
ght: silver">[R3]</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"> Support signaling mechanism t=
o=20
instantiate ODUj service layer on a ODUk link where one or more intermediat=
e ODU=20
layers may be pre-existing. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 11=
5%">A=20
ODUj LSP could involve two or more stage multiplexing on a given ODUk link.=
=20
These intermediate layers may be pre-existing&nbsp; as a result of another =
LSP=20
creation on the same ODU hierarchy or explicitly configured through managem=
ent=20
interface. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph=20
style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1"><![if !supportList=
s]><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-list: Ignore">4.<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><![endif]><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; BACKGROUND: silver; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; mso-highli=
ght: silver">[R4]</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"> Support signaling mechanism w=
here=20
ODUj service LSP creation may involve varying mux hierarchies on each hop=20
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 11=
5%">An=20
end-to-end ODUj service LSP creation may involve zero or more stage ODU=20
multiplexing on every hop in the path. Basically,the scenarios discussed in=
 R1=20
to R3 could be associated with any of the hops involved.&nbsp;=20
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph=20
style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1"><![if !supportList=
s]><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-list: Ignore">5.<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><![endif]><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; BACKGROUND: silver; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; mso-highli=
ght: silver">[R5]</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"> Support signaling mechanism f=
or=20
egress control of OTN interfaces <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 11=
5%">An=20
egress interface of a ODUj LSP could involve single or multiple stage=20
multiplexing. Egress Label sub-object defined in [RFC-4003] must be used to=
=20
signal hierarchical multiplexing information pertaining to the egress inter=
face=20
of the LSP.&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph=20
style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1"><![if !supportList=
s]><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-list: Ignore">6.<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><![endif]><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; BACKGROUND: silver; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; mso-highli=
ght: silver">[R6]</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"> Support signaling mechanism w=
hen=20
ODUj service LSP creation requires induced or manually created=20
H-LSP.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-seri=
f'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Ba=
sed on=20
the above requirements, following is the comparison between two drafts unde=
r=20
discussion.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-seri=
f'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-seri=
f'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<TABLE class=3DMsoNormalTable style=3D"WIDTH: 6.65in; BORDER-COLLAPSE: coll=
apse"=20
cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 width=3D638 border=3D0>
  <TBODY>
  <TR>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; BACKGROUND: #c4bc96; PAD=
DING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; WIDTH: 81.9pt; PADDING=
-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D109>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Requirement<o:p></o:p><=
/SPAN></P></TD>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; BACKGROUND: #c4bc96; PAD=
DING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; WIDTH: 166.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 0i=
n; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D222>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Draft-Zhang<o:p></o:p><=
/SPAN></P></TD>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; BACKGROUND: #c4bc96; PAD=
DING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; WIDTH: 3.2in; PADDING-TOP: 0in;=
 BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D307>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Draft-Khuzema<o:p></o:p=
></SPAN></P></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:=
 windowtext 1pt solid; WIDTH: 81.9pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: wind=
owtext 1pt solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D109>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">R1<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P=
></TD>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:=
 medium none; WIDTH: 166.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1=
pt solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D222>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Supported<o:p></o:p></S=
PAN></P></TD>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:=
 medium none; WIDTH: 3.2in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt=
 solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D307>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Supported<o:p></o:p></S=
PAN></P></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:=
 windowtext 1pt solid; WIDTH: 81.9pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: wind=
owtext 1pt solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D109>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">R2<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P=
></TD>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:=
 medium none; WIDTH: 166.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1=
pt solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D222>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Supported using H-LSPs =
for=20
      each HO-ODU layers<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></TD>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:=
 medium none; WIDTH: 3.2in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt=
 solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D307>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Supported without H-LSP=
s.=20
      Achieves scalability and better restoration=20
      performance.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:=
 windowtext 1pt solid; WIDTH: 81.9pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: wind=
owtext 1pt solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D109>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">R3<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P=
></TD>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:=
 medium none; WIDTH: 166.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1=
pt solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D222>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Supported using H-LSPs =
for=20
      each non-existing HO-ODU layers <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></TD>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:=
 medium none; WIDTH: 3.2in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt=
 solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D307>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Supported without=20
      H-LSPs<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:=
 windowtext 1pt solid; WIDTH: 81.9pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: wind=
owtext 1pt solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D109>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">R4<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P=
></TD>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:=
 medium none; WIDTH: 166.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1=
pt solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D222>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Supported using H-LSPs =
for=20
      each HO-ODU layers<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></TD>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:=
 medium none; WIDTH: 3.2in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt=
 solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D307>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Supported without=20
      H-LSPs<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:=
 windowtext 1pt solid; WIDTH: 81.9pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: wind=
owtext 1pt solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D109>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">R5<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P=
></TD>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:=
 medium none; WIDTH: 166.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1=
pt solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D222>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-seri=
f'">Not=20
      Supported<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></TD>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:=
 medium none; WIDTH: 3.2in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt=
 solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D307>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Supported<o:p></o:p></S=
PAN></P></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:=
 windowtext 1pt solid; WIDTH: 81.9pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: wind=
owtext 1pt solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D109>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">R6<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P=
></TD>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:=
 medium none; WIDTH: 166.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1=
pt solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D222>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Supported using=20
      H-LSP<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></TD>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:=
 medium none; WIDTH: 3.2in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt=
 solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D307>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Supported using=20
      H-LSP<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-seri=
f'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Wo=
uld like=20
to hear opinions.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Au=
thors=20
draft-khuzema<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-seri=
f'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-seri=
f'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df=
 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium non=
e; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN><=
/B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">=20
ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] <B>On Behalf Of=20
</B>GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June =
27,=20
2011 6:53 PM<BR><B>To:</B> 'CCAMP'<BR><B>Subject:</B> [CCAMP] OTN signallin=
g=20
drafts status<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Hello=20
CCampers,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></=
SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Currently two=
 drafts=20
exist for the signaling of LSPs in OTN technology.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></D=
IV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">The two draft=
s,=20
namely draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709 and <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DI=
V>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">draft-khuzema=
-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709,=20
contain a lot of similarities<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">but are=20
fundamentally different with respect to the support of multi-stage=20
technology.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></=
SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Draft-zhang p=
roposes=20
to deal with multi-stage technology via the usage<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DI=
V>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">of H-LSPs as =
already=20
defined in RFC6107. With this approach all LSPs<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">belonging to=
=20
intermediate layers of a hierarchy are signaled as separate=20
H-LSPs.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Monitoring,=20
protection and restoration functionalities are applicable independently to =
each=20
LSP. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></=
SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Draft-khuzema=
=20
proposes to introduce a new multi-stage label concept so=20
that<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">a single cons=
truct=20
contains labels associated to more then one hierarchical=20
level.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">This implies =
that=20
all level in the OTN&nbsp; hierarchy with the exclusion of service=20
levels<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">are not visib=
le as=20
single LSPs. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Each layer ca=
nnot be=20
independently monitored.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Only the serv=
ice=20
layer (the layer with the finest granularity) can be protected or=20
restored.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></=
SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Advantages an=
d=20
disadvantages of both approaches can be summarized in short, telling=20
that<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">the H-LSP app=
roach=20
is able to work in any situation while the multi-stage label approach is=20
suitable <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">on single hop=
s or=20
similar situations (reached signaling before an H-LSP) but, when used,=20
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">optimizes=20
processing.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">&nbsp;<o:p></=
o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">As such we pe=
rceive=20
the Draft-khuzema approach as an optimization that could be supported in an=
=20
optional way.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></=
SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Before going =
on with=20
merging of the two drafts we would like to hear opinions from CCampers.&nbs=
p;=20
&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></=
SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Pietro &amp;=
=20
Sergio<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></=
SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></=
SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Pietro Vittori=
o=20
Grandi</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></=
SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Terrestrial Op=
tics=20
Portfolio Evolution</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></=
SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Alcatel-Lucent=
=20
Vimercate (Italy)</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></=
SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Tel: +39 039 6=
86=20
4930</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></=
SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Mail:=20
pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></=
SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></=
SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Put your hand =
on a=20
hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></=
SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sit with a pre=
tty=20
girl for an hour, and it seems like a&nbsp; minute. That's=20
relativity.</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></=
SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">(A.=20
Einstein)</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></=
SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet MS','sans-serif'">&nbsp;<=
/SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></=
SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></=
SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From cyril.margaria@nsn.com  Tue Jun 28 03:18:49 2011
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From: "Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich)" <cyril.margaria@nsn.com>
To: "ext Khuzema Pithewan" <kpithewan@infinera.com>, "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>, "CCAMP" <ccamp@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status
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Hi Khuzema,=20

=20

Regarding R2, one aspect (possibly a R9) is not only the instantiation
of the intermediate layers but also the control of those layers,

including compatibility with RFC4783,
draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-sdh-otn-oam-ext and
draft-ietf-ccamp-oam-configuration-fwk.=20

The support with H-LSP is clear, as those intermediate layers (and
interfaces) appear explicitly in signaling. =20

=20

Support of those RFC and OAM document  in case of multistage labels
would need clarification,=20

not only in case of LSP setup but also considering the possibility to
add OAM measurements on an existing LSP=20

=20

BR

Cyril.

=20

=20

=20

From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
Of ext Khuzema Pithewan
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 6:23 AM
To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); 'CCAMP'
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status

=20

Thanks Pietro and Sergio for starting this off.

=20

Hi CCampers,=20

=20

We would like to provide more context to multi-stage label approach for
better understanding.  OTN is inherently a hierarchical network, and
there are/will be cases where service ODU has to go through mandatory
creation of more than one layer because of various technical/economic
reasons. We are listing here requirements for supporting services over
hierarchical OTN network.

=20

1.      [R1] Support signaling mechanism to instantiate ODUj service
layer on a ODUk link via single stage muxing.=20

=20

A ODUj LSP could involve zero (j=3Dk) or one stage (j<k) multiplexing on =
a
given ODUk link. Here both Control-plane and Data-plane entities are
created for the ODUj service layer. ODUk link could be a point-to-point
OTUk link or a H-LSP.

=20

2.      [R2] Support signaling mechanism to instantiate one or more
intermediate layers on a ODUk link in order to support the ODUj service
layer.=20

=20

A ODUj LSP could involve two or more stage multiplexing on a given ODUk
link. These intermediate layers can be implicitly created as a part of
ODUj service LSP creation. In this case, both controlplane and dataplane
entities will be created for the ODUj service layer. However,
intermediate ODU layer(s) (implicitly created) will have dataplane
representation only.=20

=20

3.      [R3] Support signaling mechanism to instantiate ODUj service
layer on a ODUk link where one or more intermediate ODU layers may be
pre-existing.=20

=20

A ODUj LSP could involve two or more stage multiplexing on a given ODUk
link. These intermediate layers may be pre-existing  as a result of
another LSP creation on the same ODU hierarchy or explicitly configured
through management interface.=20

=20

4.      [R4] Support signaling mechanism where ODUj service LSP creation
may involve varying mux hierarchies on each hop=20

=20

An end-to-end ODUj service LSP creation may involve zero or more stage
ODU multiplexing on every hop in the path. Basically,the scenarios
discussed in R1 to R3 could be associated with any of the hops involved.


=20

5.      [R5] Support signaling mechanism for egress control of OTN
interfaces=20

=20

An egress interface of a ODUj LSP could involve single or multiple stage
multiplexing. Egress Label sub-object defined in [RFC-4003] must be used
to signal hierarchical multiplexing information pertaining to the egress
interface of the LSP.  =20

=20

6.      [R6] Support signaling mechanism when ODUj service LSP creation
requires induced or manually created H-LSP.

=20

Based on the above requirements, following is the comparison between two
drafts under discussion.

=20

=20

Requirement

Draft-Zhang

Draft-Khuzema

R1

Supported

Supported

R2

Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers

Supported without H-LSPs. Achieves scalability and better restoration
performance.

R3

Supported using H-LSPs for each non-existing HO-ODU layers=20

Supported without H-LSPs

R4

Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers

Supported without H-LSPs

R5

Not Supported

Supported

R6

Supported using H-LSP

Supported using H-LSP

=20

=20

Would like to hear opinions.

=20

Authors draft-khuzema

=20

=20

From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
Of GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 6:53 PM
To: 'CCAMP'
Subject: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status

=20

Hello CCampers,

=20

Currently two drafts exist for the signaling of LSPs in OTN technology.

The two drafts, namely draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709 and=20

draft-khuzema-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709, contain a lot of similarities

but are fundamentally different with respect to the support of
multi-stage technology.

=20

Draft-zhang proposes to deal with multi-stage technology via the usage

of H-LSPs as already defined in RFC6107. With this approach all LSPs

belonging to intermediate layers of a hierarchy are signaled as separate
H-LSPs.

Monitoring, protection and restoration functionalities are applicable
independently to each LSP.=20

=20

Draft-khuzema proposes to introduce a new multi-stage label concept so
that

a single construct contains labels associated to more then one
hierarchical level.

This implies that all level in the OTN  hierarchy with the exclusion of
service levels

are not visible as single LSPs.=20

Each layer cannot be independently monitored.

Only the service layer (the layer with the finest granularity) can be
protected or restored.

=20

Advantages and disadvantages of both approaches can be summarized in
short, telling that

the H-LSP approach is able to work in any situation while the
multi-stage label approach is suitable=20

on single hops or similar situations (reached signaling before an H-LSP)
but, when used,=20

optimizes processing.

=20

As such we perceive the Draft-khuzema approach as an optimization that
could be supported in an optional way.

=20

Before going on with merging of the two drafts we would like to hear
opinions from CCampers.   =20

=20

Pietro & Sergio

=20

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Pietro Vittorio Grandi

Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution

Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)

Tel: +39 039 686 4930

Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.

Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute. That's
relativity.

(A. Einstein)

=20

=20


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Hi =
Khuzema, <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Regarding =
R2, one aspect (possibly a R9) is not only the instantiation of the =
intermediate layers but also the control of those =
layers,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>including =
compatibility with RFC4783, draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-sdh-otn-oam-ext and =
draft-ietf-ccamp-oam-configuration-fwk. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>The =
support with H-LSP is clear, as those intermediate layers (and =
interfaces) appear explicitly in signaling. =
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Support of =
those RFC and OAM document &nbsp;in case of multistage labels =
&nbsp;would need clarification, <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>not only =
in case of LSP setup but also considering the possibility to add OAM =
measurements on an existing LSP <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>BR<o:p></o:=
p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Cyril.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>ext Khuzema Pithewan<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 28, 2011 6:23 =
AM<br><b>To:</b> GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); =
'CCAMP'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts =
status<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Thanks Pietro and Sergio =
for starting this off.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Hi CCampers, =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>We would like to provide =
more context to multi-stage label approach for better =
understanding.&nbsp; OTN is inherently a hierarchical network, and there =
are/will be cases where service ODU has to go through mandatory creation =
of more than one layer because of various technical/economic reasons. We =
are listing here requirements for supporting services over hierarchical =
OTN network.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if =
!supportLists]><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;background:silver;mso-highligh=
t:silver'>[R1]</span><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'> =
Support signaling mechanism to instantiate ODUj service layer on a ODUk =
link via single stage muxing. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'>A ODUj LSP could involve =
zero (j=3Dk) or one stage (j&lt;k) multiplexing on a given ODUk link. =
Here both Control-plane and Data-plane entities are created for the ODUj =
service layer. ODUk link could be a point-to-point OTUk link or a =
H-LSP.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;background:silver;mso-highligh=
t:silver'>[R2]</span><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'> =
Support signaling mechanism to instantiate one or more intermediate =
layers on a ODUk link in order to support the ODUj service layer. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'>A ODUj LSP could involve two =
or more stage multiplexing on a given ODUk link. These intermediate =
layers can be implicitly created as a part of ODUj service LSP creation. =
In this case, both controlplane and dataplane entities will be created =
for the ODUj service layer. However, intermediate ODU layer(s) =
(implicitly created) will have dataplane representation only. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>3.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;background:silver;mso-highligh=
t:silver'>[R3]</span><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'> =
Support signaling mechanism to instantiate ODUj service layer on a ODUk =
link where one or more intermediate ODU layers may be pre-existing. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'>A ODUj LSP could involve two =
or more stage multiplexing on a given ODUk link. These intermediate =
layers may be pre-existing&nbsp; as a result of another LSP creation on =
the same ODU hierarchy or explicitly configured through management =
interface. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>4.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;background:silver;mso-highligh=
t:silver'>[R4]</span><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'> =
Support signaling mechanism where ODUj service LSP creation may involve =
varying mux hierarchies on each hop <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'>An end-to-end ODUj service =
LSP creation may involve zero or more stage ODU multiplexing on every =
hop in the path. Basically,the scenarios discussed in R1 to R3 could be =
associated with any of the hops involved.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>5.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;background:silver;mso-highligh=
t:silver'>[R5]</span><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'> =
Support signaling mechanism for egress control of OTN interfaces =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'>An egress interface of a =
ODUj LSP could involve single or multiple stage multiplexing. Egress =
Label sub-object defined in [RFC-4003] must be used to signal =
hierarchical multiplexing information pertaining to the egress interface =
of the LSP.&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>6.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;background:silver;mso-highligh=
t:silver'>[R6]</span><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'> =
Support signaling mechanism when ODUj service LSP creation requires =
induced or manually created H-LSP.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Based on the above =
requirements, following is the comparison between two drafts under =
discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 =
cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D638 =
style=3D'width:478.8pt;border-collapse:collapse'><tr><td width=3D109 =
valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:81.9pt;border:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;background:#C4BC96;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Requirement<o:p></o:p></span=
></p></td><td width=3D222 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:166.5pt;border:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;border-left:none;background:#C4BC96;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm =
5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Draft-Zhang<o:p></o:p></span=
></p></td><td width=3D307 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:230.4pt;border:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;border-left:none;background:#C4BC96;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm =
5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Draft-Khuzema<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p></td></tr><tr><td width=3D109 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:81.9pt;border:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>R1<o:p></o:p></span></p></td=
><td width=3D222 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:166.5pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p></td><td width=3D307 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:230.4pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p></td></tr><tr><td width=3D109 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:81.9pt;border:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>R2<o:p></o:p></span></p></td=
><td width=3D222 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:166.5pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported using H-LSPs for =
each HO-ODU layers<o:p></o:p></span></p></td><td width=3D307 =
valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:230.4pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported without H-LSPs. =
Achieves scalability and better restoration =
performance.<o:p></o:p></span></p></td></tr><tr><td width=3D109 =
valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:81.9pt;border:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>R3<o:p></o:p></span></p></td=
><td width=3D222 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:166.5pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported using H-LSPs for =
each non-existing HO-ODU layers <o:p></o:p></span></p></td><td =
width=3D307 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:230.4pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported without =
H-LSPs<o:p></o:p></span></p></td></tr><tr><td width=3D109 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:81.9pt;border:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>R4<o:p></o:p></span></p></td=
><td width=3D222 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:166.5pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported using H-LSPs for =
each HO-ODU layers<o:p></o:p></span></p></td><td width=3D307 =
valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:230.4pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported without =
H-LSPs<o:p></o:p></span></p></td></tr><tr><td width=3D109 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:81.9pt;border:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>R5<o:p></o:p></span></p></td=
><td width=3D222 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:166.5pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Not =
Supported<o:p></o:p></span></p></td><td width=3D307 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:230.4pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p></td></tr><tr><td width=3D109 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:81.9pt;border:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>R6<o:p></o:p></span></p></td=
><td width=3D222 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:166.5pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported using =
H-LSP<o:p></o:p></span></p></td><td width=3D307 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:230.4pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported using =
H-LSP<o:p></o:p></span></p></td></tr></table><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Would like to hear =
opinions.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Authors =
draft-khuzema<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, =
June 27, 2011 6:53 PM<br><b>To:</b> 'CCAMP'<br><b>Subject:</b> [CCAMP] =
OTN signalling drafts status<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Hello =
CCampers,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Currently =
two drafts exist for the signaling of LSPs in OTN =
technology.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>The two =
drafts, namely draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709 and =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>draft-khuzem=
a-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709, contain a lot of =
similarities<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>but are =
fundamentally different with respect to the support of multi-stage =
technology.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Draft-zhang =
proposes to deal with multi-stage technology via the =
usage<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>of H-LSPs =
as already defined in RFC6107. With this approach all =
LSPs<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>belonging =
to intermediate layers of a hierarchy are signaled as separate =
H-LSPs.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Monitoring, =
protection and restoration functionalities are applicable independently =
to each LSP. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Draft-khuzem=
a proposes to introduce a new multi-stage label concept so =
that<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>a single =
construct contains labels associated to more then one hierarchical =
level.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>This =
implies that all level in the OTN&nbsp; hierarchy with the exclusion of =
service levels<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>are not =
visible as single LSPs. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Each layer =
cannot be independently monitored.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Only the =
service layer (the layer with the finest granularity) can be protected =
or restored.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Advantages =
and disadvantages of both approaches can be summarized in short, telling =
that<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>the H-LSP =
approach is able to work in any situation while the multi-stage label =
approach is suitable <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>on single =
hops or similar situations (reached signaling before an H-LSP) but, when =
used, <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>optimizes =
processing.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>As such we =
perceive the Draft-khuzema approach as an optimization that could be =
supported in an optional way.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Before =
going on with merging of the two drafts we would like to hear opinions =
from CCampers.&nbsp; &nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Pietro =
&amp; Sergio<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Pietro =
Vittorio Grandi</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Terrestrial =
Optics Portfolio Evolution</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Alcatel-Lucen=
t Vimercate (Italy)</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Tel: +39 039 =
686 4930</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Mail: =
pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Put your =
hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sit with a =
pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a&nbsp; minute. That's =
relativity.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>(A. =
Einstein)</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet =
MS","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div></div></div></body></html>
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From kpithewan@infinera.com  Tue Jun 28 04:25:51 2011
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From: Khuzema Pithewan <kpithewan@infinera.com>
To: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>, "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>, 'CCAMP' <ccamp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: OTN signalling drafts status
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Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 11:25:43 +0000
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status
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Hi Daniele,

Pls see inline.

Thanks
Khuzema
From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 2:51 PM
To: Khuzema Pithewan; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); 'CCAMP'
Subject: RE: OTN signalling drafts status

Hi Khuzema,

thanks for the requirements and the comparison.

I have a question and would like to add some requirements.

Q1: Could you please clarify why R2 can be addressed in a more scalable way=
 and with better performances with the multi stage approach?

[KP] Using multi-stage you avoid back and forth setup of LSPs on single hop=
 for mandatory higher layers.


[R7] Backward compatibility


How could an RFC 6107 based implementation interwork with a node using the =
multistage label only?

[KP] Multi-stage label construct is actually a N-Stage Label. The Label tel=
ls how many stages it is covering. If Peer Node doesn't support multi-stage=
, then Multi-stage Label construct can be used as single stage label.

[R8] Restoration per layer

Suppose to have a ODU1->ODU3->ODU4 hierarchy that needs to be restored and =
there is no ODU4 link available, but there are 2 ODU3 available on differen=
t paths and i could potentially restore the 2 ODU3 independently. Is this a=
llowed by the multi stage label approach?

[KP] I am not sure, If I have understood your question. If ODU1 is your ser=
vice ODU, then all you are interested in restoring that ODU. The multiplexi=
ng hierarchy is local to a link (a link can be one hop physical span or a H=
-LSP). The link property will determine whether multi-stage is required or =
not.

Finally, i think that supporting both types of labels could be a good compr=
omise, maybe the single stage one as mandatory and the multi stage as optio=
nal

[KP] Since multi-stage label construct can be used as single stage also (Nu=
m Of Mux Stages=3D1), All we need is an advertisement for a link, that if i=
t can support moreThanOneStage or not to make it interoperable with only si=
ngle stage implementations.


BR
Daniele

________________________________
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of K=
huzema Pithewan
Sent: marted=EC 28 giugno 2011 6.23
To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); 'CCAMP'
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status
Thanks Pietro and Sergio for starting this off.

Hi CCampers,

We would like to provide more context to multi-stage label approach for bet=
ter understanding.  OTN is inherently a hierarchical network, and there are=
/will be cases where service ODU has to go through mandatory creation of mo=
re than one layer because of various technical/economic reasons. We are lis=
ting here requirements for supporting services over hierarchical OTN networ=
k.


1.      [R1] Support signaling mechanism to instantiate ODUj service layer =
on a ODUk link via single stage muxing.



A ODUj LSP could involve zero (j=3Dk) or one stage (j<k) multiplexing on a =
given ODUk link. Here both Control-plane and Data-plane entities are create=
d for the ODUj service layer. ODUk link could be a point-to-point OTUk link=
 or a H-LSP.



2.      [R2] Support signaling mechanism to instantiate one or more interme=
diate layers on a ODUk link in order to support the ODUj service layer.



A ODUj LSP could involve two or more stage multiplexing on a given ODUk lin=
k. These intermediate layers can be implicitly created as a part of ODUj se=
rvice LSP creation. In this case, both controlplane and dataplane entities =
will be created for the ODUj service layer. However, intermediate ODU layer=
(s) (implicitly created) will have dataplane representation only.



3.      [R3] Support signaling mechanism to instantiate ODUj service layer =
on a ODUk link where one or more intermediate ODU layers may be pre-existin=
g.



A ODUj LSP could involve two or more stage multiplexing on a given ODUk lin=
k. These intermediate layers may be pre-existing  as a result of another LS=
P creation on the same ODU hierarchy or explicitly configured through manag=
ement interface.



4.      [R4] Support signaling mechanism where ODUj service LSP creation ma=
y involve varying mux hierarchies on each hop



An end-to-end ODUj service LSP creation may involve zero or more stage ODU =
multiplexing on every hop in the path. Basically,the scenarios discussed in=
 R1 to R3 could be associated with any of the hops involved.



5.      [R5] Support signaling mechanism for egress control of OTN interfac=
es



An egress interface of a ODUj LSP could involve single or multiple stage mu=
ltiplexing. Egress Label sub-object defined in [RFC-4003] must be used to s=
ignal hierarchical multiplexing information pertaining to the egress interf=
ace of the LSP.



6.      [R6] Support signaling mechanism when ODUj service LSP creation req=
uires induced or manually created H-LSP.

Based on the above requirements, following is the comparison between two dr=
afts under discussion.


Requirement

Draft-Zhang

Draft-Khuzema

R1

Supported

Supported

R2

Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers

Supported without H-LSPs. Achieves scalability and better restoration perfo=
rmance.

R3

Supported using H-LSPs for each non-existing HO-ODU layers

Supported without H-LSPs

R4

Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers

Supported without H-LSPs

R5

Not Supported

Supported

R6

Supported using H-LSP

Supported using H-LSP



Would like to hear opinions.

Authors draft-khuzema


From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of G=
RANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 6:53 PM
To: 'CCAMP'
Subject: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status

Hello CCampers,

Currently two drafts exist for the signaling of LSPs in OTN technology.
The two drafts, namely draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709 and
draft-khuzema-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709, contain a lot of similarities
but are fundamentally different with respect to the support of multi-stage =
technology.

Draft-zhang proposes to deal with multi-stage technology via the usage
of H-LSPs as already defined in RFC6107. With this approach all LSPs
belonging to intermediate layers of a hierarchy are signaled as separate H-=
LSPs.
Monitoring, protection and restoration functionalities are applicable indep=
endently to each LSP.

Draft-khuzema proposes to introduce a new multi-stage label concept so that
a single construct contains labels associated to more then one hierarchical=
 level.
This implies that all level in the OTN  hierarchy with the exclusion of ser=
vice levels
are not visible as single LSPs.
Each layer cannot be independently monitored.
Only the service layer (the layer with the finest granularity) can be prote=
cted or restored.

Advantages and disadvantages of both approaches can be summarized in short,=
 telling that
the H-LSP approach is able to work in any situation while the multi-stage l=
abel approach is suitable
on single hops or similar situations (reached signaling before an H-LSP) bu=
t, when used,
optimizes processing.

As such we perceive the Draft-khuzema approach as an optimization that coul=
d be supported in an optional way.

Before going on with merging of the two drafts we would like to hear opinio=
ns from CCampers.

Pietro & Sergio

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Pietro Vittorio Grandi
Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
Tel: +39 039 686 4930
Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute. That's rel=
ativity.
(A. Einstein)



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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi Daniele,<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Pls see inline.<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Khuzema<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Daniele =
Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 28, 2011 2:51 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Khuzema Pithewan; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); 'CC=
AMP'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: OTN signalling drafts status<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:blue">Hi Khuzema,</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:blue">thanks for the requirements an=
d the comparison.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:blue">I have&nbsp;a question and wou=
ld like to add some requirements.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:blue">Q1: Could you please clarify w=
hy R2 can be addressed in a&nbsp;more scalable way and with better performa=
nces with the multi stage approach?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">[KP] Using multi-stage yo=
u avoid back and forth setup of LSPs on single hop for mandatory higher lay=
ers.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:blue">[R7] Backward compatibility</s=
pan><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;san=
s-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:blue">How could an RFC 6107 based im=
plementation interwork with a node using the multistage label only?</span><=
o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">[KP] Multi-stage label co=
nstruct is actually a N-Stage Label. The Label tells how many stages it is =
covering. If Peer Node doesn&#8217;t support multi-stage, then
 Multi-stage Label construct can be used as single stage label.<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:blue">[R8] Restoration per layer</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:blue">Suppose to have a ODU1-&gt;ODU=
3-&gt;ODU4 hierarchy that needs to be restored and there is no ODU4 link av=
ailable, but there are 2 ODU3 available on different paths and
 i could potentially restore the 2 ODU3 independently. Is this allowed by t=
he multi stage label approach?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">[KP] I am not sure, If I =
have understood your question. If ODU1 is your service ODU, then all you ar=
e interested in restoring that ODU. The multiplexing hierarchy
 is local to a link (a link can be one hop physical span or a H-LSP). The l=
ink property will determine whether multi-stage is required or not.<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:blue">Finally, i think that supporti=
ng both types of labels could be a good compromise, maybe the single stage =
one as mandatory and the multi stage as optional</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">[KP] Since multi-stage la=
bel construct can be used as single stage also (Num Of Mux Stages=3D1), All=
 we need is an advertisement for a link, that if it can support
 moreThanOneStage or not to make it interoperable with only single stage im=
plementations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:blue">BR</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:blue">Daniele</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:<=
/span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;"> ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.or=
g]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Khuzema Pithewan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> marted=EC 28 giugno 2011 6.23<br>
<b>To:</b> GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); 'CCAMP'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Thanks Pietro and Sergio for starting this off.<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Hi CCampers,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">We would like to provide more context to multi-stage lab=
el approach for better understanding.&nbsp; OTN is inherently a hierarchica=
l network, and there are/will be cases where service ODU has
 to go through mandatory creation of more than one layer because of various=
 technical/economic reasons. We are listing here requirements for supportin=
g services over hierarchical OTN network.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%">1.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;l=
ine-height:115%;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;background:silver;m=
so-highlight:silver">[R1]</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height=
:115%"> Support signaling mechanism to instantiate ODUj service layer on a =
ODUk link via single stage muxing.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%">A ODUj LSP could involve zero (j=3Dk) or one stage (j&lt;k) multiplexi=
ng on a given ODUk link. Here both Control-plane and Data-plane entities ar=
e created for the ODUj service layer. ODUk
 link could be a point-to-point OTUk link or a H-LSP.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%">2.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;l=
ine-height:115%;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;background:silver;m=
so-highlight:silver">[R2]</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height=
:115%"> Support signaling mechanism to instantiate one or more intermediate=
 layers on a ODUk link in order to support
 the ODUj service layer. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%">A ODUj LSP could involve two or more stage multiplexing on a given ODU=
k link. These intermediate layers can be implicitly created as a part of OD=
Uj service LSP creation. In this case,
 both controlplane and dataplane entities will be created for the ODUj serv=
ice layer. However, intermediate ODU layer(s) (implicitly created) will hav=
e dataplane representation only.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%">3.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;l=
ine-height:115%;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;background:silver;m=
so-highlight:silver">[R3]</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height=
:115%"> Support signaling mechanism to instantiate ODUj service layer on a =
ODUk link where one or more intermediate
 ODU layers may be pre-existing. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%">A ODUj LSP could involve two or more stage multiplexing on a given ODU=
k link. These intermediate layers may be pre-existing&nbsp; as a result of =
another LSP creation on the same ODU hierarchy
 or explicitly configured through management interface. <o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%">4.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;l=
ine-height:115%;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;background:silver;m=
so-highlight:silver">[R4]</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height=
:115%"> Support signaling mechanism where ODUj service LSP creation may inv=
olve varying mux hierarchies on each
 hop <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%">An end-to-end ODUj service LSP creation may involve zero or more stage=
 ODU multiplexing on every hop in the path. Basically,the scenarios discuss=
ed in R1 to R3 could be associated with
 any of the hops involved.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%">5.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;l=
ine-height:115%;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;background:silver;m=
so-highlight:silver">[R5]</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height=
:115%"> Support signaling mechanism for egress control of OTN interfaces
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%">An egress interface of a ODUj LSP could involve single or multiple sta=
ge multiplexing. Egress Label sub-object defined in [RFC-4003] must be used=
 to signal hierarchical multiplexing
 information pertaining to the egress interface of the LSP.&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%">6.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;l=
ine-height:115%;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;background:silver;m=
so-highlight:silver">[R6]</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height=
:115%"> Support signaling mechanism when ODUj service LSP creation requires=
 induced or manually created H-LSP.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Based on the above requirements, following is the compar=
ison between two drafts under discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<table class=3D"MsoNormalTable" border=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=
=3D"0" width=3D"638" style=3D"width:6.65in;border-collapse:collapse">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;background:#C4BC96;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Requirement<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border:solid window=
text 1.0pt;border-left:none;background:#C4BC96;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt"=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Draft-Zhang<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border:solid windowte=
xt 1.0pt;border-left:none;background:#C4BC96;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Draft-Khuzema<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">R1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windo=
wtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border-top:none;borde=
r-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">R2<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windo=
wtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border-top:none;borde=
r-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported without H-LSPs. Achieves scalability and bette=
r restoration performance.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">R3<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windo=
wtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported using H-LSPs for each non-existing HO-ODU laye=
rs
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border-top:none;borde=
r-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported without H-LSPs<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">R4<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windo=
wtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border-top:none;borde=
r-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported without H-LSPs<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">R5<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windo=
wtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Not Supported<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border-top:none;borde=
r-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">R6<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windo=
wtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported using H-LSP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border-top:none;borde=
r-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported using H-LSP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Would like to hear opinions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Authors draft-khuzema<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> ccamp-bo=
unces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 27, 2011 6:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'CCAMP'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Hello CCampers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Currently two drafts exist for the signa=
ling of LSPs in OTN technology.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">The two drafts, namely draft-zhang-ccamp=
-gmpls-evolving-g709 and
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">draft-khuzema-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709=
, contain a lot of similarities<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">but are fundamentally different with res=
pect to the support of multi-stage technology.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Draft-zhang proposes to deal with multi-=
stage technology via the usage<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">of H-LSPs as already defined in RFC6107.=
 With this approach all LSPs<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">belonging to intermediate layers of a hi=
erarchy are signaled as separate H-LSPs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Monitoring, protection and restoration f=
unctionalities are applicable independently to each LSP.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Draft-khuzema proposes to introduce a ne=
w multi-stage label concept so that<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">a single construct contains labels assoc=
iated to more then one hierarchical level.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">This implies that all level in the OTN&n=
bsp; hierarchy with the exclusion of service levels<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">are not visible as single LSPs.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Each layer cannot be independently monit=
ored.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Only the service layer (the layer with t=
he finest granularity) can be protected or restored.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Advantages and disadvantages of both app=
roaches can be summarized in short, telling that<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">the H-LSP approach is able to work in an=
y situation while the multi-stage label approach is suitable
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">on single hops or similar situations (re=
ached signaling before an H-LSP) but, when used,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">optimizes processing.<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">As such we perceive the Draft-khuzema ap=
proach as an optimization that could be supported in an optional way.<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Before going on with merging of the two =
drafts we would like to hear opinions from CCampers.&nbsp; &nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Pietro &amp; Sergio<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Pietro Vittorio Grandi</span><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"=
><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution</s=
pan><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sa=
ns-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)</span><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Tel: &#43;39 039 686 4930</span><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot=
;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-luce=
nt.com</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;=
,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute=
, and it seems like an hour.</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and i=
t seems like a&nbsp; minute. That's relativity.</span><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">(A. Einstein)</span><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tr=
ebuchet MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From jdrake@juniper.net  Tue Jun 28 05:13:02 2011
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 05:12:15 -0700
Thread-Topic: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Subject: [CCAMP] FW: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Sent from my iPhone


-----Original Message-----
From: John E Drake=20
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2011 5:39 PM
To: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'
Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan Hardwick=
; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; St=
eve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Fatai Zhang; Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Khuzema Pithe=
wan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)
Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

Snipped...

Sent from my iPhone


>=20
> JD:  As I said before, a multi-stage hierarchical LSP is a new
> construct, and one that has never been modeled before.  In particular,
> the sub-layer LSPs do not have an existence outside the containing
> hierarchical LSP and are there simply to provide context for each
> stage.  I think this renders any discussion of independent sub-layer
> LSP protection switching effectively moot.  I.e., the containing
> hierarchical LSP may be protection switched but not the sub-layer LSPs
> within it, and this would be the *same regardless* of which of the two
> schemes is employed.
>=20
> Wrt OAM, again, the data plane instantiated by *either* of the two
> schemes would be the same.
>=20
> [SBPG] There is no need for a new "Multi-stage hierarchical LSP"
> construct
> for the reason that H-LSP as specified in RFC 6107 completely solves
> the
> problem of nesting LSPs belonging to different layers.

JD:  That's incorrect.  As I indicated previously, the logic to send and re=
ceive multiple sequential sub-layer LSPs between the endpoints of a contain=
ing hierarchical LSP is new.

>=20
> We remind that in field NMS already deal with multi-layer technologies
> and that the adopt way of working is "per layer" from server to client.
> The introduction of a multi-stage label with a consequent new model
> of intermediate layer creation would force the NMS to be modified in
> order to support this new mode when there is no need at all, being the
> problem solved by H-LSP in a clean way.

JD:  That's incorrect.  We are dealing with multiple sub-layer LSPs between=
 the endpoints of a containing hierarchical LSP.  This is a new construct, =
and regardless of which of the two methods is used to establish them, the N=
MS will have to be modified to understand this construct.  =20

>=20
> Last but not least, the fact that no one wants to protect intermediate
> layer is your personal opinion.

JD:  Well, the fact that it is my opinion is a correct statement.  However,=
 that opinion is consistent with the way MPLS/GMPLS works. =20

> In case of use of H-LSPs there is no
> reason why
> an intermediate layer should not be protected or restored. And in any
> case
> it is an operator choice.

JD:  This is incorrect.  LSPs contained within a hierarchical LSP are signa=
led between the endpoints of that hierarchical LSP.  No other nodes see the=
 signaling requests and the contained LSPs are completely encapsulated with=
in the hierarchical LSP.

>=20
> JD: In *either* case, one has to build the logic to instantiate the
> multistage data plane.  If one chooses multi-stage labels, one has to
> build the code to send and receive multi-stage labels.  If one chooses
> multiple sequential sub-layer LSPs, one has to build the code to send
> and receive the sequential sub-layer LSPs.
>=20
> To my mind, the amount of code and testing is about the same, which is
> not surprising because we are doing the same thing in either case.
>=20
> [SBPG] John, using H-LSPs only there is the need to test only one
> feature:
> Multi-stage via H-LSPs.

JD:  The logic to send and receive multiple sequential sub-layer LSPs betwe=
en the endpoints of a containing hierarchical LSP is new.

>=20
> With the introduction of a multi-stage label there will be to test:
> - Multi-stage with multi-label only
> - Multi-stage with H-LSP only
> - Multi-stage with H-LSPs + multi-label with mixes dependent from
> network topology and number of layer.

JD:  That is incorrect.  One would have to implement and test the logic to =
send and receive multi-stage labels, which is the middle case in your list =
above.

>=20
> It is really difficult to understand how these  two efforts both for
> implementation and tests can be the same.....

JD:  See above.

>=20
> JD:  We can either jury-rig an existing mechanism to solve a new
> problem, which as I indicated above is a non-zero amount of work, or we
> can invent an extension to solve a new problem.
>=20
> [SBPG] Modifications can always be done, but it would be difficult to
> justify them when they are not needed because the problem is already
> solved with what we have in standard now...

JD:  That is incorrect.  As I explained above, hierarchical LSPs by themsel=
ves do not solve the multi-stage hierarchical LSP construct.

>=20
> Currently our proposal is to consider the multi-stage label feature
> optional.

JD:  This is the worst possible approach.  If we want to solve the multi-st=
age hierarchical LSP construct using multiple sequential sub-layer LSPs, th=
en that is the only approach that should be standardized.


From jdrake@juniper.net  Tue Jun 28 05:16:00 2011
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 05:12:38 -0700
Thread-Topic: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Subject: [CCAMP] FW: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Sent from my iPhone


-----Original Message-----
From: John E Drake
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2011 2:54 AM
To: 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'
Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan Hardwick=
; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; St=
eve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Fatai Zhang; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VIT=
TORIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarel=
li
Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

Daniele,

Comments inline.

Thanks,

John

Sent from my iPhone

> -----Original Message-----
> From: BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO) [mailto:sergio.belotti@alcatel-
> lucent.com]
> Sent: Friday, June 24, 2011 2:06 AM
> To: John E Drake
> Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan
> Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -
> Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Fatai Zhang; GRANDI, PIETRO
> VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Khuzema Pithewan;
> Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)
> Subject: R: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
> Hello John,
>
> We think that these arguments have to be considered in this context:
>
> 1) what Jonathan correctly pointed out is a real transport problem ,
> impacting also the NMS coordination with CP, in order to manage a CP
> managed network. As already said in a previous mail , NMS is used to
> operate "per layer" considering OAM and alarms of all layers. In order
> to do this intermediate layers of a multistage multiplexing have to be
> explicitly modeled. Currently NMS systems solves the problem with
> bottom-up approach modeling layers from server to clients. NMS in field
> expects server layer is created before any clients . In this case
> having a CP creating all layers together in an "implicit way" is
> disruptive with respect to NMS way of working.

JD:  As I said before, a multi-stage hierarchical LSP is a new construct, a=
nd one that has never been modeled before.  In particular, the sub-layer LS=
Ps do not have an existence outside the containing hierarchical LSP and are=
 there simply to provide context for each stage.  I think this renders any =
discussion of independent sub-layer LSP protection switching effectively mo=
ot.  I.e., the containing hierarchical LSP may be protection switched but n=
ot the sub-layer LSPs within it, and this would be the *same regardless* of=
 which of the two schemes is employed.

Wrt OAM, again, the data plane instantiated by *either* of the two schemes =
would be the same.

>
> 2) You're saying that multi stage label approach is applicable in two
> cases:
>   a) single-hop case that you admit as very corner case with no
> interest.
>   b) as an enhancement to setup a multi hop LSP, in which you have to
> use an H-LSP to setup an FA-LSP in order to recreate over the FA-LSP
> the same condition of case a). Then your proposal is to go on with
> multistage label approach . Doing so you are implementing two
> mechanisms to make the same thing. What is the reason for which we have
> to force every implementation to pay this additional cost?

JD: In *either* case, one has to build the logic to instantiate the multist=
age data plane.  If one chooses multi-stage labels, one has to build the co=
de to send and receive multi-stage labels.  If one chooses multiple sequent=
ial sub-layer LSPs, one has to build the code to send and receive the seque=
ntial sub-layer LSPs.

To my mind, the amount of code and testing is about the same, which is not =
surprising because we are doing the same thing in either case.

>
> 3) From your reasoning also it is quite clear that multistage label "
> can be used to improve wrt latency and control plane overhead, the
> establishment of ODUj LSPs within multi-stage hierarchical LSPs". This
> , if true, it is in any case a "nice to have" that cannot be imposed by
> a standard implementation.

JD:  We can either jury-rig an existing mechanism to solve a new problem, w=
hich as I indicated above is a non-zero amount of work, or we can invent an=
 extension to solve a new problem.

>
> Best Regards
>
> Sergio, Pietro, Daniele.
>
> SERGIO BELOTTI
>
> ALCATEL-LUCENT
> Terrestrial System Architect
> Optics Portfolio Evolution
>
> via Trento 30 , Vimercate(MI)  Italy
> T: +39 0396863033
> Sergio.Belotti@alcatel-lucent.com
>
>
>
> -----Messaggio originale-----
> Da: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> Inviato: venerd=EC 24 giugno 2011 0.56
> A: Fatai Zhang; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan
> Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -
> Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham; BELOTTI,
> SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli
> Oggetto: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
> Fatai,
>
> Comments inline.
>
> Thanks,
>
> John
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Fatai Zhang [mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 9:45 AM
> > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); John E Drake
> > Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan
> > Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -
> > Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham;
> BELOTTI,
> > SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli
> > Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > Hi John,
> >
> > I guess that you did not review our slides carefully.
>
> JD:  I will let this pass.
>
> >
> > You just see the only advantage for the corner case (i.e., establish
> > multi-layers LSP concurrently), but you did not see the issues that
> we
> > described in the slides and the issues that Jonathan mentioned (eg.,
> > OAM/protection issues).
>
> JD:  I'm sorry that I didn't provide enough context.  I don't think the
> one-hop hierarchical LSP case, w/ or w/o multi-stage labels is either
> interesting or common and it was not the case to which I was addressing
> my comments.  Rather, I was describing two ways of establishing multi-
> hop multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.  As far as I can tell the issues
> Jonathan raised in this context are red herrings rather than blue
> whales.  Furthermore, regardless of which of the two approaches I
> described is used, the issues, if any, would be exactly the same.
>
> >
> > In addition, we have repeated many times that LSP hierarchy must be
> > used in many cases, even though we have multi-stage label approach.
> > E.g., an ODU0 connection request from A to E through B, C and D, but
> B,
> > C and  D (or one of them ) can not support ODU0 switching, the HO
> ODUj
> > (ODU1 or ODU2 or ODU3 or ODU4) LSP must be created between B and D
> > through LSP hierarchy. This example is very simple and there are lots
> > of transforms for this example to use LSP hierarchy.
>
> JD:  Please see above.  I completely agree with you and was simply
> pointing out that multi-stage labels can be used to improve wrt latency
> and control plane overhead, the establishment of ODUj LSPs within
> multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Fatai
> >
> > Thanks
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John E Drake" <jdrake@juniper.net>
> > To: "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)"
> > <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > Cc: "Daniele Ceccarelli" <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>; "Rajan
> Rao"
> > <rrao@infinera.com>; "Fatai Zhang" <zhangfatai@huawei.com>; "Khuzema
> > Pithewan" <kpithewan@infinera.com>; "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)"
> > <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>; "Ashok Kunjidhapatham"
> > <akunjidhapatham@infinera.com>; "Diego Caviglia"
> > <diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>; "Steve Balls"
> > <Steve.Balls@metaswitch.com>; "Ciena - Lyndon Ong" <LyOng@Ciena.com>;
> > <fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; "NSN - Cyril Margaria"
> <cyril.margaria@nsn.com>;
> > "Li Dan" <huawei.danli@huawei.com>; "Jonathan Hardwick"
> > <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>; "Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler"
> > <jonathan.sadler@tellabs.com>; "Vallinayakam Somasundaram"
> > <valli@juniper.net>
> > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 7:21 PM
> > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> >
> > Pietro,
> >
> > If we are talking about the establishment of LSPs using single-stage
> > muxing, I think the only thing necessary is a new label format, which
> I
> > believe is a bit map of tributary slots; i.e., LSP establishment
> using
> > single-stage muxing is done.
> >
> > We have never had a situation such as multi-stage muxing before so we
> > are breaking new ground and we have two choices, either use LSP
> > hierarchy to establish multiple single-stage sub-layer LSPs
> explicitly
> > and sequentially, or include the sub-layer information within the
> Path
> > message for the ODUj such that the sub-layers are established
> > implicitly and concurrently with the establishment of the ODUj.
> >
> > Either will work, but it seems to me that the latter is more
> efficient
> > wrt latency and control plane overhead.  The one thing I do not want
> to
> > do is to say that both are supported.  If we can agree that we will
> > only use one method to establish multi-stage LSPs, then when a node
> > advertises multi-stage support in routing, we know how signaling is
> to
> > be accomplished.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > John
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 1:31 AM
> > > To: John E Drake
> > > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;
> Steve
> > > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril
> Margaria;
> > > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam
> > > Somasundaram; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > John,
> > >
> > > It seems as though you consider on the same level something (H-LSP
> > > concept) already used in CP managing multi-layer with something
> that
> > > does not exist at all.
> > > Operators are used to managed their CP network together with NMS.
> > > Most of the NMS work per-layer. The utilization of a multi-stage
> > label
> > > would force NMS to work in another manner with heavy implementation
> > > consequences.
> > >
> > > We should also keep in mind that multi-stage label approach can
> only
> > be
> > > used in some cases (not for all the one-hop multi-stage muxing) and
> > it
> > > will bring some management issues. Please see the slides that Fatai
> > > sent a few days ago.
> > >
> > > For both these reasons the "optional" condition of multi-stage
> label
> > > concept is absolutely mandatory for us.
> > >
> > > Pietro, Sergio, Fatai & Daniele
> > >
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> > > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> > > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> > > Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> > > Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an
> hour.
> > > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.
> > That's
> > > relativity.
> > > (A. Einstein)
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > > Sent: sabato 18 giugno 2011 2.40
> > > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;
> Steve
> > > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril
> Margaria;
> > > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam
> > > Somasundaram
> > > Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Pietro,
> > >
> > > We can certainly say that a node that advertises multistage
> switching
> > > support in routing MUST support multistage signaling.
> > >
> > > As I said before, using mutiple RSVP exchanges between the same LSP
> > > endpoints to establish intermediate switching stages seems ill-
> > > considered and forcing everyone to support two ways of signaling
> > > multistage LSPs seems like a really Bad Idea.
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > On Jun 17, 2011, at 2:55 AM, "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO
> > > VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-
> > > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello John,
> > >
> > > I understand that you think that the new switching type in routing
> > > should also convey implicitly the information that a
> > > multi-stage label is supported.
> > >
> > > I do not agree with this statement.
> > > Implementations using H-LSPs plus single stage labels are possible
> > (and
> > > already standard) and the fact the a node supports
> > > the new switching type is not enough to clearly tell what is
> > supported.
> > >
> > > Pietro
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > > Sent: venerd=EC 17 giugno 2011 2.09
> > > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); Daniele Ceccarelli;
> > > Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO);
> > > Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena -
> Lyndon
> > > Ong'; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Pietro,
> > >
> > > Actually we are already covered.   Our advertisements use a
> different
> > > switching type, which is also carried in signaling.  This means
> that
> > we
> > > get to define the signaling used for this switching type, and I am
> > > proposing that we use multistage.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 6:52 AM
> > > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang;
> Khuzema
> > > Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego
> > > Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I  agree with Daniele' statement.
> > >
> > > in my mind this means that single stage label support is implicit
> and
> > > that
> > > multi-stage labels should not be used unless a machine explicitly
> > > declares the support.
> > >
> > > Pietro
> > >
> > >
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> > > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> > > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> > > Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> > > Mail: <mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > > pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-
> > > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an
> hour.
> > > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.
> > That's
> > > relativity.
> > > (A. Einstein)
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]
> > > Sent: gioved=EC 16 giugno 2011 15.48
> > > To: John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> BELOTTI,
> > > SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO
> > (PIETRO
> > > VITTORIO); Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Starting a new thread as we're now moving to signaling...
> > >
> > > Assuming we still have not decided whether we're going to support
> > > single stage only, multi stage only or both of them i believe that
> as
> > > per OSPF we need to consider backward compatibility.
> > >
> > > An implementation RFC4328 based (that we've explicitly been told
> not
> > to
> > > deprecate) is single stage based, so in case of multi stage only or
> > > multi-stage + single stage we should be able to cover backward
> > > compatibility issues somehow.
> > >
> > > BR
> > > Daniele
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > > Sent: gioved=EC 16 giugno 2011 8.53
> > > To: Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham
> > > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;
> > 'Steve
> > > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for
> multi-
> > > stage Vs Single Stage labels)
> > > Rajan,
> > >
> > > I didn't want to allow interoperability options.  I much preferred
> to
> > > say that we do signaling in one way only, using multistage labels.
> > > These are also needed for signaling within  hierarchical LSPs.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > From: Rajan Rao [mailto:rrao@infinera.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 10:46 PM
> > > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; John E Drake; Khuzema
> Pithewan;
> > > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham
> > > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;
> > 'Steve
> > > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for
> multi-
> > > stage Vs Single Stage labels)
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > While we are making updates, let us discuss support required in
> link
> > > advertisement for single/multi-stage label options:
> > >
> > > Given that there is interest in both multi-stage label and single-
> > stage
> > > with H-LSPs, we should consider inclusion of a FLAG to indicate
> what
> > > the link is capable of.  This will address some of the issues we
> have
> > > discussed in the past relating to path computation involving NEs
> with
> > > different capabilities (inter-op).
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Rajan

From jdrake@juniper.net  Tue Jun 28 05:16:36 2011
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 05:12:53 -0700
Thread-Topic: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Subject: [CCAMP] FW: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 05:11:49 -0700
Thread-Topic: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Subject: [CCAMP] FW: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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From jdrake@juniper.net  Tue Jun 28 05:18:11 2011
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 05:13:10 -0700
Thread-Topic: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Subject: [CCAMP] FW: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Sent from my iPhone


-----Original Message-----
From: John E Drake=20
Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 3:56 PM
To: 'Fatai Zhang'; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan Hardwick=
; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; St=
eve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); =
Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli
Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

Fatai,

Comments inline.

Thanks,

John

Sent from my iPhone


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fatai Zhang [mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com]
> Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 9:45 AM
> To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); John E Drake
> Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan
> Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -
> Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham; BELOTTI,
> SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli
> Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>=20
> Hi John,
>=20
> I guess that you did not review our slides carefully.

JD:  I will let this pass.

>=20
> You just see the only advantage for the corner case (i.e., establish
> multi-layers LSP concurrently), but you did not see the issues that we
> described in the slides and the issues that Jonathan mentioned (eg.,
> OAM/protection issues).

JD:  I'm sorry that I didn't provide enough context.  I don't think the one=
-hop hierarchical LSP case, w/ or w/o multi-stage labels is either interest=
ing or common and it was not the case to which I was addressing my comments=
.  Rather, I was describing two ways of establishing multi-hop multi-stage =
hierarchical LSPs.  As far as I can tell the issues Jonathan raised in this=
 context are red herrings rather than blue whales.  Furthermore, regardless=
 of which of the two approaches I described is used, the issues, if any, wo=
uld be exactly the same.

>=20
> In addition, we have repeated many times that LSP hierarchy must be
> used in many cases, even though we have multi-stage label approach.
> E.g., an ODU0 connection request from A to E through B, C and D, but B,
> C and  D (or one of them ) can not support ODU0 switching, the HO ODUj
> (ODU1 or ODU2 or ODU3 or ODU4) LSP must be created between B and D
> through LSP hierarchy. This example is very simple and there are lots
> of transforms for this example to use LSP hierarchy.

JD:  Please see above.  I completely agree with you and was simply pointing=
 out that multi-stage labels can be used to improve wrt latency and control=
 plane overhead, the establishment of ODUj LSPs within multi-stage hierarch=
ical LSPs.

>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Fatai
>=20
> Thanks
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John E Drake" <jdrake@juniper.net>
> To: "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)"
> <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> Cc: "Daniele Ceccarelli" <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>; "Rajan Rao"
> <rrao@infinera.com>; "Fatai Zhang" <zhangfatai@huawei.com>; "Khuzema
> Pithewan" <kpithewan@infinera.com>; "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)"
> <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>; "Ashok Kunjidhapatham"
> <akunjidhapatham@infinera.com>; "Diego Caviglia"
> <diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>; "Steve Balls"
> <Steve.Balls@metaswitch.com>; "Ciena - Lyndon Ong" <LyOng@Ciena.com>;
> <fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; "NSN - Cyril Margaria" <cyril.margaria@nsn.com>;
> "Li Dan" <huawei.danli@huawei.com>; "Jonathan Hardwick"
> <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>; "Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler"
> <jonathan.sadler@tellabs.com>; "Vallinayakam Somasundaram"
> <valli@juniper.net>
> Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 7:21 PM
> Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>=20
>=20
> Pietro,
>=20
> If we are talking about the establishment of LSPs using single-stage
> muxing, I think the only thing necessary is a new label format, which I
> believe is a bit map of tributary slots; i.e., LSP establishment using
> single-stage muxing is done.
>=20
> We have never had a situation such as multi-stage muxing before so we
> are breaking new ground and we have two choices, either use LSP
> hierarchy to establish multiple single-stage sub-layer LSPs explicitly
> and sequentially, or include the sub-layer information within the Path
> message for the ODUj such that the sub-layers are established
> implicitly and concurrently with the establishment of the ODUj.
>=20
> Either will work, but it seems to me that the latter is more efficient
> wrt latency and control plane overhead.  The one thing I do not want to
> do is to say that both are supported.  If we can agree that we will
> only use one method to establish multi-stage LSPs, then when a node
> advertises multi-stage support in routing, we know how signaling is to
> be accomplished.
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> John
>=20
> Sent from my iPhone
>=20
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 1:31 AM
> > To: John E Drake
> > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia; Steve
> > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril Margaria;
> > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam
> > Somasundaram; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > John,
> >
> > It seems as though you consider on the same level something (H-LSP
> > concept) already used in CP managing multi-layer with something that
> > does not exist at all.
> > Operators are used to managed their CP network together with NMS.
> > Most of the NMS work per-layer. The utilization of a multi-stage
> label
> > would force NMS to work in another manner with heavy implementation
> > consequences.
> >
> > We should also keep in mind that multi-stage label approach can only
> be
> > used in some cases (not for all the one-hop multi-stage muxing) and
> it
> > will bring some management issues. Please see the slides that Fatai
> > sent a few days ago.
> >
> > For both these reasons the "optional" condition of multi-stage label
> > concept is absolutely mandatory for us.
> >
> > Pietro, Sergio, Fatai & Daniele
> >
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> > Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> > Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
> > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.
> That's
> > relativity.
> > (A. Einstein)
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > Sent: sabato 18 giugno 2011 2.40
> > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia; Steve
> > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril Margaria;
> > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam
> > Somasundaram
> > Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > Pietro,
> >
> > We can certainly say that a node that advertises multistage switching
> > support in routing MUST support multistage signaling.
> >
> > As I said before, using mutiple RSVP exchanges between the same LSP
> > endpoints to establish intermediate switching stages seems ill-
> > considered and forcing everyone to support two ways of signaling
> > multistage LSPs seems like a really Bad Idea.
> >
> > John
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Jun 17, 2011, at 2:55 AM, "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO
> > VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-
> > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Hello John,
> >
> > I understand that you think that the new switching type in routing
> > should also convey implicitly the information that a
> > multi-stage label is supported.
> >
> > I do not agree with this statement.
> > Implementations using H-LSPs plus single stage labels are possible
> (and
> > already standard) and the fact the a node supports
> > the new switching type is not enough to clearly tell what is
> supported.
> >
> > Pietro
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > Sent: venerd=EC 17 giugno 2011 2.09
> > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); Daniele Ceccarelli;
> > Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO);
> > Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon
> > Ong'; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> Sadler';
> > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > Pietro,
> >
> > Actually we are already covered.   Our advertisements use a different
> > switching type, which is also carried in signaling.  This means that
> we
> > get to define the signaling used for this switching type, and I am
> > proposing that we use multistage.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > John
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 6:52 AM
> > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema
> > Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego
> > Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> Sadler';
> > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I  agree with Daniele' statement.
> >
> > in my mind this means that single stage label support is implicit and
> > that
> > multi-stage labels should not be used unless a machine explicitly
> > declares the support.
> >
> > Pietro
> >
> >
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> > Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> > Mail: <mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-
> > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
> > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.
> That's
> > relativity.
> > (A. Einstein)
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]
> > Sent: gioved=EC 16 giugno 2011 15.48
> > To: John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan; BELOTTI,
> > SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO
> (PIETRO
> > VITTORIO); Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> Sadler';
> > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > Subject: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > Starting a new thread as we're now moving to signaling...
> >
> > Assuming we still have not decided whether we're going to support
> > single stage only, multi stage only or both of them i believe that as
> > per OSPF we need to consider backward compatibility.
> >
> > An implementation RFC4328 based (that we've explicitly been told not
> to
> > deprecate) is single stage based, so in case of multi stage only or
> > multi-stage + single stage we should be able to cover backward
> > compatibility issues somehow.
> >
> > BR
> > Daniele
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > Sent: gioved=EC 16 giugno 2011 8.53
> > To: Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham
> > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;
> 'Steve
> > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> Sadler';
> > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for multi-
> > stage Vs Single Stage labels)
> > Rajan,
> >
> > I didn't want to allow interoperability options.  I much preferred to
> > say that we do signaling in one way only, using multistage labels.
> > These are also needed for signaling within  hierarchical LSPs.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > John
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > From: Rajan Rao [mailto:rrao@infinera.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 10:46 PM
> > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; John E Drake; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham
> > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;
> 'Steve
> > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> Sadler';
> > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for multi-
> > stage Vs Single Stage labels)
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > While we are making updates, let us discuss support required in link
> > advertisement for single/multi-stage label options:
> >
> > Given that there is interest in both multi-stage label and single-
> stage
> > with H-LSPs, we should consider inclusion of a FLAG to indicate what
> > the link is capable of.  This will address some of the issues we have
> > discussed in the past relating to path computation involving NEs with
> > different capabilities (inter-op).
> >
> > Thanks
> > Rajan

From zhangfatai@huawei.com  Tue Jun 28 05:49:47 2011
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Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 20:47:36 +0800
From: Fatai Zhang <zhangfatai@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status
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Hi all,

=20

To avoid confusion, I think we should not push the arbitrary conclusion
without analysis.

=20

At Prague meeting, I present the slides to compare H-LSP and Multi-stage
label approach.=20

=20

Please see more information by checking the slides of Prague meeting.

=20

=20



=20

=20

=20

Thanks
=20
Fatai

=20

From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of
Khuzema Pithewan
Sent: 2011=C4=EA6=D4=C228=C8=D5 12:23
To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); 'CCAMP'
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status

=20

Thanks Pietro and Sergio for starting this off.

=20

Hi CCampers,=20

=20

We would like to provide more context to multi-stage label approach for
better understanding.  OTN is inherently a hierarchical network, and =
there
are/will be cases where service ODU has to go through mandatory creation =
of
more than one layer because of various technical/economic reasons. We =
are
listing here requirements for supporting services over hierarchical OTN
network.

=20

1.      [R1] Support signaling mechanism to instantiate ODUj service =
layer
on a ODUk link via single stage muxing.=20

=20

A ODUj LSP could involve zero (j=3Dk) or one stage (j<k) multiplexing on =
a
given ODUk link. Here both Control-plane and Data-plane entities are =
created
for the ODUj service layer. ODUk link could be a point-to-point OTUk =
link or
a H-LSP.

=20

2.      [R2] Support signaling mechanism to instantiate one or more
intermediate layers on a ODUk link in order to support the ODUj service
layer.=20

=20

A ODUj LSP could involve two or more stage multiplexing on a given ODUk
link. These intermediate layers can be implicitly created as a part of =
ODUj
service LSP creation. In this case, both controlplane and dataplane =
entities
will be created for the ODUj service layer. However, intermediate ODU
layer(s) (implicitly created) will have dataplane representation only.=20

=20

3.      [R3] Support signaling mechanism to instantiate ODUj service =
layer
on a ODUk link where one or more intermediate ODU layers may be
pre-existing.=20

=20

A ODUj LSP could involve two or more stage multiplexing on a given ODUk
link. These intermediate layers may be pre-existing  as a result of =
another
LSP creation on the same ODU hierarchy or explicitly configured through
management interface.=20

=20

4.      [R4] Support signaling mechanism where ODUj service LSP creation =
may
involve varying mux hierarchies on each hop=20

=20

An end-to-end ODUj service LSP creation may involve zero or more stage =
ODU
multiplexing on every hop in the path. Basically,the scenarios discussed =
in
R1 to R3 could be associated with any of the hops involved. =20

=20

5.      [R5] Support signaling mechanism for egress control of OTN
interfaces=20

=20

An egress interface of a ODUj LSP could involve single or multiple stage
multiplexing. Egress Label sub-object defined in [RFC-4003] must be used =
to
signal hierarchical multiplexing information pertaining to the egress
interface of the LSP.  =20

=20

6.      [R6] Support signaling mechanism when ODUj service LSP creation
requires induced or manually created H-LSP.

=20

Based on the above requirements, following is the comparison between two
drafts under discussion.

=20

=20


Requirement

Draft-Zhang

Draft-Khuzema


R1

Supported

Supported


R2

Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers

Supported without H-LSPs. Achieves scalability and better restoration
performance.


R3

Supported using H-LSPs for each non-existing HO-ODU layers=20

Supported without H-LSPs


R4

Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers

Supported without H-LSPs


R5

Not Supported

Supported


R6

Supported using H-LSP

Supported using H-LSP

=20

=20

Would like to hear opinions.

=20

Authors draft-khuzema

=20

=20

From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of
GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 6:53 PM
To: 'CCAMP'
Subject: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status

=20

Hello CCampers,

=20

Currently two drafts exist for the signaling of LSPs in OTN technology.

The two drafts, namely draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709 and=20

draft-khuzema-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709, contain a lot of similarities

but are fundamentally different with respect to the support of =
multi-stage
technology.

=20

Draft-zhang proposes to deal with multi-stage technology via the usage

of H-LSPs as already defined in RFC6107. With this approach all LSPs

belonging to intermediate layers of a hierarchy are signaled as separate
H-LSPs.

Monitoring, protection and restoration functionalities are applicable
independently to each LSP.=20

=20

Draft-khuzema proposes to introduce a new multi-stage label concept so =
that

a single construct contains labels associated to more then one =
hierarchical
level.

This implies that all level in the OTN  hierarchy with the exclusion of
service levels

are not visible as single LSPs.=20

Each layer cannot be independently monitored.

Only the service layer (the layer with the finest granularity) can be
protected or restored.

=20

Advantages and disadvantages of both approaches can be summarized in =
short,
telling that

the H-LSP approach is able to work in any situation while the =
multi-stage
label approach is suitable=20

on single hops or similar situations (reached signaling before an H-LSP)
but, when used,=20

optimizes processing.

=20

As such we perceive the Draft-khuzema approach as an optimization that =
could
be supported in an optional way.

=20

Before going on with merging of the two drafts we would like to hear
opinions from CCampers.   =20

=20

Pietro & Sergio

=20

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Pietro Vittorio Grandi

Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution

Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)

Tel: +39 039 686 4930

Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.

Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute. That's
relativity.

(A. Einstein)

=20

=20


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DZH-CN link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Hi =
all,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>To avoid confusion, I think =
we should not push the arbitrary conclusion without =
analysis.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>At Prague meeting, I =
present the slides to compare H-LSP and Multi-stage label approach. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Please see more information =
by checking the slides of Prague meeting.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph'><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><img =
width=3D755 height=3D482 id=3D"Picture_x0020_1" =
src=3D"cid:image003.jpg@01CC35D4.9BE00330"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Thanks<br>&nbsp;<br>Fatai</s=
pan><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>=
<div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>Khuzema Pithewan<br><b>Sent:</b> 2011</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5'>=C4=EA</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>6</span><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5'>=D4=C2</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>28</span><sp=
an =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5'>=C8=D5</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
12:23<br><b>To:</b> GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); =
'CCAMP'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts =
status<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Thanks Pietro =
and Sergio for starting this off.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Hi CCampers, =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>We would like to provide =
more context to multi-stage label approach for better =
understanding.&nbsp; OTN is inherently a hierarchical network, and there =
are/will be cases where service ODU has to go through mandatory creation =
of more than one layer because of various technical/economic reasons. We =
are listing here requirements for supporting services over hierarchical =
OTN network.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if =
!supportLists]><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;background:silver;mso-highligh=
t:silver'>[R1]</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'> Support signaling mechanism =
to instantiate ODUj service layer on a ODUk link via single stage =
muxing. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'>A ODUj LSP could involve =
zero (j=3Dk) or one stage (j&lt;k) multiplexing on a given ODUk link. =
Here both Control-plane and Data-plane entities are created for the ODUj =
service layer. ODUk link could be a point-to-point OTUk link or a =
H-LSP.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;background:silver;mso-highligh=
t:silver'>[R2]</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'> Support signaling mechanism =
to instantiate one or more intermediate layers on a ODUk link in order =
to support the ODUj service layer. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'>A ODUj LSP could involve two =
or more stage multiplexing on a given ODUk link. These intermediate =
layers can be implicitly created as a part of ODUj service LSP creation. =
In this case, both controlplane and dataplane entities will be created =
for the ODUj service layer. However, intermediate ODU layer(s) =
(implicitly created) will have dataplane representation only. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>3.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;background:silver;mso-highligh=
t:silver'>[R3]</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'> Support signaling mechanism =
to instantiate ODUj service layer on a ODUk link where one or more =
intermediate ODU layers may be pre-existing. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'>A ODUj LSP could involve two =
or more stage multiplexing on a given ODUk link. These intermediate =
layers may be pre-existing&nbsp; as a result of another LSP creation on =
the same ODU hierarchy or explicitly configured through management =
interface. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>4.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;background:silver;mso-highligh=
t:silver'>[R4]</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'> Support signaling mechanism =
where ODUj service LSP creation may involve varying mux hierarchies on =
each hop <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'>An end-to-end ODUj service =
LSP creation may involve zero or more stage ODU multiplexing on every =
hop in the path. Basically,the scenarios discussed in R1 to R3 could be =
associated with any of the hops involved.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>5.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;background:silver;mso-highligh=
t:silver'>[R5]</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'> Support signaling mechanism =
for egress control of OTN interfaces <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'>An egress interface of a =
ODUj LSP could involve single or multiple stage multiplexing. Egress =
Label sub-object defined in [RFC-4003] must be used to signal =
hierarchical multiplexing information pertaining to the egress interface =
of the LSP.&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>6.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;background:silver;mso-highligh=
t:silver'>[R6]</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'> Support signaling mechanism =
when ODUj service LSP creation requires induced or manually created =
H-LSP.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Based on the above =
requirements, following is the comparison between two drafts under =
discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 =
cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D638 =
style=3D'width:478.8pt;border-collapse:collapse'><tr><td width=3D109 =
valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:81.9pt;border:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;background:#C4BC96;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Requirement<o:p></o:p></span=
></p></td><td width=3D222 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:166.5pt;border:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;border-left:none;background:#C4BC96;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm =
5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Draft-Zhang<o:p></o:p></span=
></p></td><td width=3D307 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:230.4pt;border:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;border-left:none;background:#C4BC96;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm =
5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Draft-Khuzema<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p></td></tr><tr><td width=3D109 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:81.9pt;border:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>R1<o:p></o:p></span></p></td=
><td width=3D222 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:166.5pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p></td><td width=3D307 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:230.4pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p></td></tr><tr><td width=3D109 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:81.9pt;border:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>R2<o:p></o:p></span></p></td=
><td width=3D222 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:166.5pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported using H-LSPs for =
each HO-ODU layers<o:p></o:p></span></p></td><td width=3D307 =
valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:230.4pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported without H-LSPs. =
Achieves scalability and better restoration =
performance.<o:p></o:p></span></p></td></tr><tr><td width=3D109 =
valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:81.9pt;border:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>R3<o:p></o:p></span></p></td=
><td width=3D222 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:166.5pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported using H-LSPs for =
each non-existing HO-ODU layers <o:p></o:p></span></p></td><td =
width=3D307 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:230.4pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported without =
H-LSPs<o:p></o:p></span></p></td></tr><tr><td width=3D109 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:81.9pt;border:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>R4<o:p></o:p></span></p></td=
><td width=3D222 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:166.5pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported using H-LSPs for =
each HO-ODU layers<o:p></o:p></span></p></td><td width=3D307 =
valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:230.4pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported without =
H-LSPs<o:p></o:p></span></p></td></tr><tr><td width=3D109 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:81.9pt;border:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>R5<o:p></o:p></span></p></td=
><td width=3D222 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:166.5pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Not =
Supported<o:p></o:p></span></p></td><td width=3D307 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:230.4pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p></td></tr><tr><td width=3D109 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:81.9pt;border:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>R6<o:p></o:p></span></p></td=
><td width=3D222 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:166.5pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported using =
H-LSP<o:p></o:p></span></p></td><td width=3D307 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:230.4pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported using =
H-LSP<o:p></o:p></span></p></td></tr></table><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Would like to hear =
opinions.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Authors =
draft-khuzema<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, =
June 27, 2011 6:53 PM<br><b>To:</b> 'CCAMP'<br><b>Subject:</b> [CCAMP] =
OTN signalling drafts status<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Hello =
CCampers,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Currently =
two drafts exist for the signaling of LSPs in OTN =
technology.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>The two =
drafts, namely draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709 and =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>draft-khuzem=
a-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709, contain a lot of =
similarities<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>but are =
fundamentally different with respect to the support of multi-stage =
technology.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Draft-zhang =
proposes to deal with multi-stage technology via the =
usage<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>of H-LSPs =
as already defined in RFC6107. With this approach all =
LSPs<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>belonging =
to intermediate layers of a hierarchy are signaled as separate =
H-LSPs.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Monitoring, =
protection and restoration functionalities are applicable independently =
to each LSP. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Draft-khuzem=
a proposes to introduce a new multi-stage label concept so =
that<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>a single =
construct contains labels associated to more then one hierarchical =
level.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>This =
implies that all level in the OTN&nbsp; hierarchy with the exclusion of =
service levels<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>are not =
visible as single LSPs. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Each layer =
cannot be independently monitored.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Only the =
service layer (the layer with the finest granularity) can be protected =
or restored.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Advantages =
and disadvantages of both approaches can be summarized in short, telling =
that<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>the H-LSP =
approach is able to work in any situation while the multi-stage label =
approach is suitable <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>on single =
hops or similar situations (reached signaling before an H-LSP) but, when =
used, <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>optimizes =
processing.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>As such we =
perceive the Draft-khuzema approach as an optimization that could be =
supported in an optional way.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Before =
going on with merging of the two drafts we would like to hear opinions =
from CCampers.&nbsp; &nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Pietro =
&amp; Sergio<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Pietro =
Vittorio Grandi</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Terrestrial =
Optics Portfolio Evolution</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Alcatel-Lucen=
t Vimercate (Italy)</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Tel: +39 039 =
686 4930</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Mail: =
pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Put your =
hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sit with a =
pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a&nbsp; minute. That's =
relativity.</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>(A. =
Einstein)</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet =
MS","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div></div></body></html>=

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From zhangfatai@huawei.com  Tue Jun 28 05:51:21 2011
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Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 20:49:26 +0800
From: Fatai Zhang <zhangfatai@huawei.com>
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To: 'John E Drake' <jdrake@juniper.net>, 'CCAMP' <ccamp@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] FW: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Hi John,

You did not review our slides, so we think that you did not understand =
the spirit of multi-stage label approach correctly.




Thanks
=20
Fatai


-----Original Message-----
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of John E Drake
Sent: 2011=E5=B9=B46=E6=9C=8828=E6=97=A5 20:13
To: CCAMP
Subject: [CCAMP] FW: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage



Sent from my iPhone


-----Original Message-----
From: John E Drake=20
Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 3:56 PM
To: 'Fatai Zhang'; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan =
Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena - =
Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham; BELOTTI, =
SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli
Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

Fatai,

Comments inline.

Thanks,

John

Sent from my iPhone


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fatai Zhang [mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com]
> Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 9:45 AM
> To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); John E Drake
> Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan
> Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -
> Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham; =
BELOTTI,
> SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli
> Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>=20
> Hi John,
>=20
> I guess that you did not review our slides carefully.

JD:  I will let this pass.

>=20
> You just see the only advantage for the corner case (i.e., establish
> multi-layers LSP concurrently), but you did not see the issues that we
> described in the slides and the issues that Jonathan mentioned (eg.,
> OAM/protection issues).

JD:  I'm sorry that I didn't provide enough context.  I don't think the =
one-hop hierarchical LSP case, w/ or w/o multi-stage labels is either =
interesting or common and it was not the case to which I was addressing =
my comments.  Rather, I was describing two ways of establishing =
multi-hop multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.  As far as I can tell the =
issues Jonathan raised in this context are red herrings rather than blue =
whales.  Furthermore, regardless of which of the two approaches I =
described is used, the issues, if any, would be exactly the same.

>=20
> In addition, we have repeated many times that LSP hierarchy must be
> used in many cases, even though we have multi-stage label approach.
> E.g., an ODU0 connection request from A to E through B, C and D, but =
B,
> C and  D (or one of them ) can not support ODU0 switching, the HO ODUj
> (ODU1 or ODU2 or ODU3 or ODU4) LSP must be created between B and D
> through LSP hierarchy. This example is very simple and there are lots
> of transforms for this example to use LSP hierarchy.

JD:  Please see above.  I completely agree with you and was simply =
pointing out that multi-stage labels can be used to improve wrt latency =
and control plane overhead, the establishment of ODUj LSPs within =
multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.

>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Fatai
>=20
> Thanks
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John E Drake" <jdrake@juniper.net>
> To: "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)"
> <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> Cc: "Daniele Ceccarelli" <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>; "Rajan =
Rao"
> <rrao@infinera.com>; "Fatai Zhang" <zhangfatai@huawei.com>; "Khuzema
> Pithewan" <kpithewan@infinera.com>; "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)"
> <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>; "Ashok Kunjidhapatham"
> <akunjidhapatham@infinera.com>; "Diego Caviglia"
> <diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>; "Steve Balls"
> <Steve.Balls@metaswitch.com>; "Ciena - Lyndon Ong" <LyOng@Ciena.com>;
> <fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; "NSN - Cyril Margaria" =
<cyril.margaria@nsn.com>;
> "Li Dan" <huawei.danli@huawei.com>; "Jonathan Hardwick"
> <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>; "Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler"
> <jonathan.sadler@tellabs.com>; "Vallinayakam Somasundaram"
> <valli@juniper.net>
> Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 7:21 PM
> Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>=20
>=20
> Pietro,
>=20
> If we are talking about the establishment of LSPs using single-stage
> muxing, I think the only thing necessary is a new label format, which =
I
> believe is a bit map of tributary slots; i.e., LSP establishment using
> single-stage muxing is done.
>=20
> We have never had a situation such as multi-stage muxing before so we
> are breaking new ground and we have two choices, either use LSP
> hierarchy to establish multiple single-stage sub-layer LSPs explicitly
> and sequentially, or include the sub-layer information within the Path
> message for the ODUj such that the sub-layers are established
> implicitly and concurrently with the establishment of the ODUj.
>=20
> Either will work, but it seems to me that the latter is more efficient
> wrt latency and control plane overhead.  The one thing I do not want =
to
> do is to say that both are supported.  If we can agree that we will
> only use one method to establish multi-stage LSPs, then when a node
> advertises multi-stage support in routing, we know how signaling is to
> be accomplished.
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> John
>=20
> Sent from my iPhone
>=20
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 1:31 AM
> > To: John E Drake
> > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia; =
Steve
> > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril =
Margaria;
> > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam
> > Somasundaram; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > John,
> >
> > It seems as though you consider on the same level something (H-LSP
> > concept) already used in CP managing multi-layer with something that
> > does not exist at all.
> > Operators are used to managed their CP network together with NMS.
> > Most of the NMS work per-layer. The utilization of a multi-stage
> label
> > would force NMS to work in another manner with heavy implementation
> > consequences.
> >
> > We should also keep in mind that multi-stage label approach can only
> be
> > used in some cases (not for all the one-hop multi-stage muxing) and
> it
> > will bring some management issues. Please see the slides that Fatai
> > sent a few days ago.
> >
> > For both these reasons the "optional" condition of multi-stage label
> > concept is absolutely mandatory for us.
> >
> > Pietro, Sergio, Fatai & Daniele
> >
> > =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> > Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> > Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
> > =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an =
hour.
> > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.
> That's
> > relativity.
> > (A. Einstein)
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > Sent: sabato 18 giugno 2011 2.40
> > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia; =
Steve
> > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril =
Margaria;
> > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam
> > Somasundaram
> > Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > Pietro,
> >
> > We can certainly say that a node that advertises multistage =
switching
> > support in routing MUST support multistage signaling.
> >
> > As I said before, using mutiple RSVP exchanges between the same LSP
> > endpoints to establish intermediate switching stages seems ill-
> > considered and forcing everyone to support two ways of signaling
> > multistage LSPs seems like a really Bad Idea.
> >
> > John
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Jun 17, 2011, at 2:55 AM, "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO
> > VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-
> > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Hello John,
> >
> > I understand that you think that the new switching type in routing
> > should also convey implicitly the information that a
> > multi-stage label is supported.
> >
> > I do not agree with this statement.
> > Implementations using H-LSPs plus single stage labels are possible
> (and
> > already standard) and the fact the a node supports
> > the new switching type is not enough to clearly tell what is
> supported.
> >
> > Pietro
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > Sent: venerd=C3=AC 17 giugno 2011 2.09
> > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); Daniele Ceccarelli;
> > Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO);
> > Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon
> > Ong'; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> Sadler';
> > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > Pietro,
> >
> > Actually we are already covered.   Our advertisements use a =
different
> > switching type, which is also carried in signaling.  This means that
> we
> > get to define the signaling used for this switching type, and I am
> > proposing that we use multistage.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > John
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 6:52 AM
> > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; =
Khuzema
> > Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego
> > Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> Sadler';
> > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I  agree with Daniele' statement.
> >
> > in my mind this means that single stage label support is implicit =
and
> > that
> > multi-stage labels should not be used unless a machine explicitly
> > declares the support.
> >
> > Pietro
> >
> >
> > =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> > Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> > Mail: <mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-
> > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an =
hour.
> > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.
> That's
> > relativity.
> > (A. Einstein)
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]
> > Sent: gioved=C3=AC 16 giugno 2011 15.48
> > To: John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan; BELOTTI,
> > SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO
> (PIETRO
> > VITTORIO); Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> Sadler';
> > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > Subject: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > Starting a new thread as we're now moving to signaling...
> >
> > Assuming we still have not decided whether we're going to support
> > single stage only, multi stage only or both of them i believe that =
as
> > per OSPF we need to consider backward compatibility.
> >
> > An implementation RFC4328 based (that we've explicitly been told not
> to
> > deprecate) is single stage based, so in case of multi stage only or
> > multi-stage + single stage we should be able to cover backward
> > compatibility issues somehow.
> >
> > BR
> > Daniele
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > Sent: gioved=C3=AC 16 giugno 2011 8.53
> > To: Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham
> > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;
> 'Steve
> > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> Sadler';
> > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for =
multi-
> > stage Vs Single Stage labels)
> > Rajan,
> >
> > I didn't want to allow interoperability options.  I much preferred =
to
> > say that we do signaling in one way only, using multistage labels.
> > These are also needed for signaling within  hierarchical LSPs.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > John
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > From: Rajan Rao [mailto:rrao@infinera.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 10:46 PM
> > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; John E Drake; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham
> > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;
> 'Steve
> > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> Sadler';
> > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for =
multi-
> > stage Vs Single Stage labels)
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > While we are making updates, let us discuss support required in link
> > advertisement for single/multi-stage label options:
> >
> > Given that there is interest in both multi-stage label and single-
> stage
> > with H-LSPs, we should consider inclusion of a FLAG to indicate what
> > the link is capable of.  This will address some of the issues we =
have
> > discussed in the past relating to path computation involving NEs =
with
> > different capabilities (inter-op).
> >
> > Thanks
> > Rajan
_______________________________________________
CCAMP mailing list
CCAMP@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp



From jdrake@juniper.net  Tue Jun 28 05:59:06 2011
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Fatai Zhang <zhangfatai@huawei.com>, 'Khuzema Pithewan' <kpithewan@infinera.com>, "'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>, 'CCAMP' <ccamp@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 05:55:30 -0700
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status
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This shows a complete lack of understanding of hierarchical LSP, multi-stag=
e labels, and GMPLS in general.  It is so bad it is not even wrong.

Sent from my iPhone

From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of F=
atai Zhang
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 5:48 AM
To: 'Khuzema Pithewan'; 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; 'CCAMP=
'
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status

Hi all,

To avoid confusion, I think we should not push the arbitrary conclusion wit=
hout analysis.

At Prague meeting, I present the slides to compare H-LSP and Multi-stage la=
bel approach.

Please see more information by checking the slides of Prague meeting.


[cid:image001.jpg@01CC3557.FC4021B0]



Thanks

Fatai

From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of K=
huzema Pithewan
Sent: 2011=1B$BG/=1B(B6=1B$B7n=1B(B28=1B$BF|=1B(B 12:23
To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); 'CCAMP'
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status

Thanks Pietro and Sergio for starting this off.

Hi CCampers,

We would like to provide more context to multi-stage label approach for bet=
ter understanding.  OTN is inherently a hierarchical network, and there are=
/will be cases where service ODU has to go through mandatory creation of mo=
re than one layer because of various technical/economic reasons. We are lis=
ting here requirements for supporting services over hierarchical OTN networ=
k.


1.      [R1] Support signaling mechanism to instantiate ODUj service layer =
on a ODUk link via single stage muxing.



A ODUj LSP could involve zero (j=3Dk) or one stage (j<k) multiplexing on a =
given ODUk link. Here both Control-plane and Data-plane entities are create=
d for the ODUj service layer. ODUk link could be a point-to-point OTUk link=
 or a H-LSP.



2.      [R2] Support signaling mechanism to instantiate one or more interme=
diate layers on a ODUk link in order to support the ODUj service layer.



A ODUj LSP could involve two or more stage multiplexing on a given ODUk lin=
k. These intermediate layers can be implicitly created as a part of ODUj se=
rvice LSP creation. In this case, both controlplane and dataplane entities =
will be created for the ODUj service layer. However, intermediate ODU layer=
(s) (implicitly created) will have dataplane representation only.



3.      [R3] Support signaling mechanism to instantiate ODUj service layer =
on a ODUk link where one or more intermediate ODU layers may be pre-existin=
g.



A ODUj LSP could involve two or more stage multiplexing on a given ODUk lin=
k. These intermediate layers may be pre-existing  as a result of another LS=
P creation on the same ODU hierarchy or explicitly configured through manag=
ement interface.



4.      [R4] Support signaling mechanism where ODUj service LSP creation ma=
y involve varying mux hierarchies on each hop



An end-to-end ODUj service LSP creation may involve zero or more stage ODU =
multiplexing on every hop in the path. Basically,the scenarios discussed in=
 R1 to R3 could be associated with any of the hops involved.



5.      [R5] Support signaling mechanism for egress control of OTN interfac=
es



An egress interface of a ODUj LSP could involve single or multiple stage mu=
ltiplexing. Egress Label sub-object defined in [RFC-4003] must be used to s=
ignal hierarchical multiplexing information pertaining to the egress interf=
ace of the LSP.



6.      [R6] Support signaling mechanism when ODUj service LSP creation req=
uires induced or manually created H-LSP.

Based on the above requirements, following is the comparison between two dr=
afts under discussion.


Requirement

Draft-Zhang

Draft-Khuzema

R1

Supported

Supported

R2

Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers

Supported without H-LSPs. Achieves scalability and better restoration perfo=
rmance.

R3

Supported using H-LSPs for each non-existing HO-ODU layers

Supported without H-LSPs

R4

Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers

Supported without H-LSPs

R5

Not Supported

Supported

R6

Supported using H-LSP

Supported using H-LSP



Would like to hear opinions.

Authors draft-khuzema


From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of G=
RANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 6:53 PM
To: 'CCAMP'
Subject: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status

Hello CCampers,

Currently two drafts exist for the signaling of LSPs in OTN technology.
The two drafts, namely draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709 and
draft-khuzema-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709, contain a lot of similarities
but are fundamentally different with respect to the support of multi-stage =
technology.

Draft-zhang proposes to deal with multi-stage technology via the usage
of H-LSPs as already defined in RFC6107. With this approach all LSPs
belonging to intermediate layers of a hierarchy are signaled as separate H-=
LSPs.
Monitoring, protection and restoration functionalities are applicable indep=
endently to each LSP.

Draft-khuzema proposes to introduce a new multi-stage label concept so that
a single construct contains labels associated to more then one hierarchical=
 level.
This implies that all level in the OTN  hierarchy with the exclusion of ser=
vice levels
are not visible as single LSPs.
Each layer cannot be independently monitored.
Only the service layer (the layer with the finest granularity) can be prote=
cted or restored.

Advantages and disadvantages of both approaches can be summarized in short,=
 telling that
the H-LSP approach is able to work in any situation while the multi-stage l=
abel approach is suitable
on single hops or similar situations (reached signaling before an H-LSP) bu=
t, when used,
optimizes processing.

As such we perceive the Draft-khuzema approach as an optimization that coul=
d be supported in an optional way.

Before going on with merging of the two drafts we would like to hear opinio=
ns from CCampers.

Pietro & Sergio

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Pietro Vittorio Grandi
Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
Tel: +39 039 686 4930
Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute. That's rel=
ativity.
(A. Einstein)



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<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vli=
nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>This show=
s a complete lack of understanding of hierarchical LSP, multi-stage labels,=
 and GMPLS in general.&nbsp; It is so bad it is not even wrong.<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","san=
s-serif";color:#1F497D'>Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","san=
s-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div style=3D'border:no=
ne;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><div><div style=
=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma"=
,"sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.o=
rg] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Fatai Zhang<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 28, 2011 =
5:48 AM<br><b>To:</b> 'Khuzema Pithewan'; 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO =
VITTORIO)'; 'CCAMP'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts st=
atus<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"=
'>Hi all,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-fam=
ily:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>To avoid confusion, I =
think we should not push the arbitrary conclusion without analysis.<o:p></o=
:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sa=
ns-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'=
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>At Prague meeting, I present the slides=
 to compare H-LSP and Multi-stage label approach. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Cali=
bri","sans-serif"'>Please see more information by checking the slides of Pr=
ague meeting.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font=
-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph'><spa=
n style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideogra=
ph'><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><img width=3D755 hei=
ght=3D482 id=3D"Picture_x0020_1" src=3D"cid:image001.jpg@01CC3557.FC4021B0"=
><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-align:justify;tex=
t-justify:inter-ideograph'><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif=
"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-align:jus=
tify;text-justify:inter-ideograph'><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sa=
ns-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-a=
lign:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph'><span style=3D'font-family:"Cali=
bri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D'text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph'><span style=3D'font-fa=
mily:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Thanks<br>&nbsp;<br>Fatai<o:p></o:p></span></p=
></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-seri=
f"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:s=
olid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span=
 style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> ccam=
p-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Khuz=
ema Pithewan<br><b>Sent:</b> 2011</span><span lang=3DZH-CN style=3D'font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun'>=1B$BG/=1B(J</span><span style=3D'font-size:1=
0.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>6</span><span lang=3DZH-CN style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun'>=1B$B7n=1B(J</span><span style=3D'=
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>28</span><span lang=3DZ=
H-CN style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun'>=1B$BF|=1B(J</span><span=
 style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> 12:23<br><b>=
To:</b> GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); 'CCAMP'<br><b>Subject:</=
b> Re: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></di=
v><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span styl=
e=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Thanks Pietro and Sergio for start=
ing this off.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font=
-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Hi CCampers, <o:p>=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>We wo=
uld like to provide more context to multi-stage label approach for better u=
nderstanding.&nbsp; OTN is inherently a hierarchical network, and there are=
/will be cases where service ODU has to go through mandatory creation of mo=
re than one layer because of various technical/economic reasons. We are lis=
ting here requirements for supporting services over hierarchical OTN networ=
k.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><!=
[if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D'=
font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;background:silver;mso-highlight:silver'>[=
R1]</span><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'> Support signal=
ing mechanism to instantiate ODUj service layer on a ODUk link via single s=
tage muxing. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoListParagraph><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'>A ODU=
j LSP could involve zero (j=3Dk) or one stage (j&lt;k) multiplexing on a gi=
ven ODUk link. Here both Control-plane and Data-plane entities are created =
for the ODUj service layer. ODUk link could be a point-to-point OTUk link o=
r a H-LSP.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span style=3D'=
font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DM=
soListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if =
!supportLists]><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><span styl=
e=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D'font=
-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;background:silver;mso-highlight:silver'>[R2]<=
/span><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'> Support signaling =
mechanism to instantiate one or more intermediate layers on a ODUk link in =
order to support the ODUj service layer. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DM=
soListParagraph><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span style=3D'font-size:12.=
0pt;line-height:115%'>A ODUj LSP could involve two or more stage multiplexi=
ng on a given ODUk link. These intermediate layers can be implicitly create=
d as a part of ODUj service LSP creation. In this case, both controlplane a=
nd dataplane entities will be created for the ODUj service layer. However, =
intermediate ODU layer(s) (implicitly created) will have dataplane represen=
tation only. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><=
=1B(J![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'>=
<span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>3.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roma=
n"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;background:silver;mso-highlight:sil=
ver'>[R3]</span><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'> Support =
signaling mechanism to instantiate ODUj service layer on a ODUk link where =
one or more intermediate ODU layers may be pre-existing. <o:p></o:p></span>=
</p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height=
:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'>A ODUj LSP could involve two or more=
 stage multiplexing on a given ODUk link. These intermediate layers may be =
pre-existing&nbsp; as a result of another LSP creation on the same ODU hier=
archy or explicitly configured through management interface. <o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-he=
ight:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D=
'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>4.=
<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 </span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height=
:115%;background:silver;mso-highlight:silver'>[R4]</span><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'> Support signaling mechanism where ODUj ser=
vice LSP creation may involve varying mux hierarchies on each hop <o:p></o:=
p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;li=
ne-height:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph><sp=
an style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'>An end-to-end ODUj service L=
SP creation may involve zero or more stage ODU multiplexing on every hop in=
 the path. Basically,the scenarios discussed in R1 to R3 could be associate=
d with any of the hops involved.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMso=
ListParagraph><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;ms=
o-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt=
;line-height:115%'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>5.<span style=3D'font:7.=
0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span>=
<![endif]><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;background:silve=
r;mso-highlight:silver'>[R5]</span><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-hei=
ght:115%'> Support signaling mechanism for egress control of OTN interfaces=
 <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span style=3D'font-size=
:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListPar=
agraph><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'>An egress interfac=
e of a ODUj LSP could involve single or multiple stage multiplexing. Egress=
 Label sub-object defined in [RFC-4003] must be used to signal hierarchical=
 multiplexing information pertaining to the egress interface of the LSP.&nb=
sp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span style=3D'=
font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DM=
soListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if =
!supportLists]><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><span styl=
e=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>6.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D'font=
-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;background:silver;mso-highlight:silver'>[R6]<=
/span><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'> Support signaling =
mechanism when ODUj service LSP creation requires induced or manually creat=
ed H-LSP.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans=
-serif"'>Based on the above requirements, following is the comparison betwe=
en two drafts under discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
=1B(Jspan style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";colo=
r:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D=
0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D638 style=3D'width:6.65in;border-collapse:collaps=
e'><tr><td width=3D109 valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:81.9pt;border:solid wind=
owtext 1.0pt;background:#C4BC96;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'><p class=3DMso=
Normal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Requirement<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p></td><td width=3D222 valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:166.5pt;bo=
rder:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-left:none;background:#C4BC96;padding:0in=
 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri"=
,"sans-serif"'>Draft-Zhang<o:p></o:p></span></p></td><td width=3D307 valign=
=3Dtop style=3D'width:3.2in;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-left:none;=
background:#C4BC96;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Draft-Khuzema<o:p></o:p></span=
></p></td></tr><tr><td width=3D109 valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:81.9pt;borde=
r:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>R1<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p></td><td width=3D222 valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:166.5pt;bo=
rder-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-=
right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p></td><td width=3D307 valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:3.2in;border-to=
p:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:s=
olid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><sp=
an style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p></td></tr><tr><td width=3D109 valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:81.9pt;border=
:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>R2<o:p></=
o:p></span></p></td><td width=3D222 valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:166.5pt;bor=
der-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-r=
ight:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported using H-LSP=
s for each HO-ODU layers<o:p></o:p></span></p></td><td width=3D307 valign=
=3Dtop style=3D'width:3.2in;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:=
solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4p=
t 0in 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","san=
s-serif"'>Supported without H-LSPs. Achieves scalability and better restora=
tion performance.<o:p></o:p></span></p></td></tr><tr><td width=3D109 valign=
=3Dtop style=3D'width:81.9pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-top:none;=
padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-famil=
y:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>R3<o:p></o:p></span></p></td><td width=3D222 vali=
gn=3Dtop style=3D'width:166.5pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bot=
tom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in =
5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif"'>Supported using H-LSPs for each non-existing HO-ODU layers <o=
:p></o:p></span></p></td><td width=3D307 valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:3.2in;=
border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;borde=
r-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported without =
H-LSPs<o:p></o:p></span></p></td></tr><tr><td width=3D109 valign=3Dtop styl=
e=3D'width:81.9pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in=
 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri"=
,"sans-serif"'>R4<o:p></o:p></span></p></td><td width=3D222 valign=3Dtop st=
yle=3D'width:166.5pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:solid w=
indowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5=
.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><=1B(Jspan style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-=
serif"'>Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers<o:p></o:p></span></p>=
</td><td width=3D307 valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:3.2in;border-top:none;bord=
er-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid window=
text 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D=
'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported without H-LSPs<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p></td></tr><tr><td width=3D109 valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:81.9pt;bo=
rder:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>R5<o:=
p></o:p></span></p></td><td width=3D222 valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:166.5pt=
;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;bord=
er-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'><p class=3DMso=
Normal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Not Supported<o:p=
></o:p></span></p></td><td width=3D307 valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:3.2in;bo=
rder-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-=
right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p></td></tr><tr><td width=3D109 valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:81.9pt=
;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'=
><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>R6=
<o:p></o:p></span></p></td><td width=3D222 valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:166.=
5pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;b=
order-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'><p class=3D=
MsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported usin=
g H-LSP<o:p></o:p></span></p></td><td width=3D307 valign=3Dtop style=3D'wid=
th:3.2in;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.=
0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported=
 using H-LSP<o:p></o:p></span></p></td></tr></table><p class=3DMsoNormal><s=
pan style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri=
","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Would like to hear o=
pinions.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-fami=
ly:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal=
><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Authors draft-khuzema<o=
:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri"=
,"sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D=
'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","s=
ans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ta=
homa","sans-serif"'> ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org]=
 <b>On Behalf Of </b>GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)<br><b>Sent:<=
/b> Monday, June 27, 2011 6:53 PM<br><b>To:</b> 'CCAMP'<br><b>Subject:</b> =
[CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Hello CCampers,<o:p=
></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:=
10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","=
sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Currently two dr=
afts exist for the signaling of LSPs in OTN technology.<o:p></o:p></span></=
p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>The two drafts, namely draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-ev=
olving-g709 and <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><=1B(Jp class=3DMsoNormal>=
<span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>draft-kh=
uzema-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709, contain a lot of similarities<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>but are fundamentally different with resp=
ect to the support of multi-stage technology.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><span=
 style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></=
span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Draft-zhang proposes to deal with multi-st=
age technology via the usage<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMso=
Normal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>o=
f H-LSPs as already defined in RFC6107. With this approach all LSPs<o:p></o=
:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>belonging to intermediate layers of a=
 hierarchy are signaled as separate H-LSPs.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div=
><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",=
"sans-serif"'>Monitoring, protection and restoration functionalities are ap=
plicable independently to each LSP. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D=
'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>=
</div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family=
:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Draft-khuzema proposes to introduce a new multi-sta=
ge label concept so that<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>a sin=
gle construct contains labels associated to more then one hierarchical leve=
l.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>This implies that all level=
 in the OTN&nbsp; hierarchy with the exclusion of service levels<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;=
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>are not visible as single LSPs. <o:p></o=
:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Each layer cannot be independently mo=
nitored.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Only the service la=
yer (the layer with the finest granularity) can be protected or restored.<o=
:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma"=
,"sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Advantages and=
 disadvantages of both approaches can be summarized in short, telling that<=
o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>the H-LSP approach is able to =
work in any situation while the multi-stage label approach is suitable <o:p=
></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>on single hops or similar situati=
ons (reached signaling before an H-LSP) but, when used, <o:p></o:p></span><=
/p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>optimizes processing.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tah=
oma","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>As s=
uch we perceive the Draft-khuzema approach as an optimization that could be=
 supported in an optional way.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DM=
soNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'font-=
size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal><=1B(Jspan style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Before going on with merging of the two drafts we wo=
uld like to hear opinions from CCampers.&nbsp; &nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p=
></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</s=
pan><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p=
></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Pietro &amp; Sergio<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&n=
bsp;</span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif=
"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>P=
ietro Vittorio Grandi</span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ta=
homa","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Terrestria=
l Optics Portfolio Evolution</span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Alc=
atel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)</span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMso=
Normal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Te=
l: +39 039 686 4930</span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Taho=
ma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><sp=
an style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Mail: pietro=
_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com</span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-seri=
f"'>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</span><span=
 style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></=
span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, =
and it seems like an hour.</span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-famil=
y:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sit w=
ith a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a&nbsp; minute. That's rel=
ativity.</span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-s=
erif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D=
'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>(A. Einstein)</span><sp=
an style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p>=
</span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;=
font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div></div></div></body></html>=

--_000_5E893DB832F57341992548CDBB333163A0A88459E5EMBX01HQjnprn_--

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From jdrake@juniper.net  Tue Jun 28 06:19:01 2011
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Fatai Zhang <zhangfatai@huawei.com>, 'CCAMP' <ccamp@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 06:15:03 -0700
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] FW: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] FW: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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From: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
To: Khuzema Pithewan <kpithewan@infinera.com>, "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>, 'CCAMP' <ccamp@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 15:40:22 +0200
Thread-Topic: OTN signalling drafts status
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status
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Hi Khuzema,

Thanks for quick reply, please find further comments inline [DC].

Thanks,
Daniele

________________________________
From: Khuzema Pithewan [mailto:kpithewan@infinera.com]
Sent: marted=EC 28 giugno 2011 13.26
To: Daniele Ceccarelli; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); 'CCAMP'
Subject: RE: OTN signalling drafts status

Hi Daniele,

Pls see inline.

Thanks
Khuzema
From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 2:51 PM
To: Khuzema Pithewan; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); 'CCAMP'
Subject: RE: OTN signalling drafts status

Hi Khuzema,

thanks for the requirements and the comparison.

I have a question and would like to add some requirements.

Q1: Could you please clarify why R2 can be addressed in a more scalable way=
 and with better performances with the multi stage approach?
[KP] Using multi-stage you avoid back and forth setup of LSPs on single hop=
 for mandatory higher layers.
[DC]: I tend to agree on scalability. Maybe it is worth quantifying the tim=
e saved and defining what "better performance means".

[R7] Backward compatibility
How could an RFC 6107 based implementation interwork with a node using the =
multistage label only?

[KP] Multi-stage label construct is actually a N-Stage Label. The Label tel=
ls how many stages it is covering. If Peer Node doesn't support multi-stage=
, then Multi-stage Label construct can be used as single stage label.
[DC] the signaling from a single-stage label node to a multi-stage label no=
de would implies that the multi-stage label node MUST understand also singl=
e-stage labels. On the other side the signaling from a multi-stage label no=
de to a single-stage label node using a multi-stage label would cause a cra=
nck-back and a second attempt with a single-stage label, correct?

[R8] Restoration per layer

Suppose to have a ODU1->ODU3->ODU4 hierarchy that needs to be restored and =
there is no ODU4 link available, but there are 2 ODU3 available on differen=
t paths and i could potentially restore the 2 ODU3 independently. Is this a=
llowed by the multi stage label approach?

[KP] I am not sure, If I have understood your question. If ODU1 is your ser=
vice ODU, then all you are interested in restoring that ODU. The multiplexi=
ng hierarchy is local to a link (a link can be one hop physical span or a H=
-LSP). The link property will determine whether multi-stage is required or =
not.
[DC] what i mean is that an operator would like to restore the ODU4, the OD=
U3 or the single ODU1. In my opinion it should be possible to provide the m=
eans for restoring at each layer. ITU-T states that it must be possible to =
protect each layer independently...so i think this could be inherited as: t=
he GMPLS must allow restoring each layer independently. Then it is an opera=
tor choice whether to provide resiliency only at the service layer or at al=
l of them.


Finally, i think that supporting both types of labels could be a good compr=
omise, maybe the single stage one as mandatory and the multi stage as optio=
nal

[KP] Since multi-stage label construct can be used as single stage also (Nu=
m Of Mux Stages=3D1), All we need is an advertisement for a link, that if i=
t can support moreThanOneStage or not to make it interoperable with only si=
ngle stage implementations.
 [DC]  A new node could tell via the routing whether it supports the multis=
tage label or not: in that case the signaling can be performed using the mu=
ltistage label, otherwise single one. But an old node wouldn't advertise th=
is capability. It is again a matter of attempts failed vs attempts successf=
ull.

BR
Daniele

________________________________
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of K=
huzema Pithewan
Sent: marted=EC 28 giugno 2011 6.23
To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); 'CCAMP'
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status
Thanks Pietro and Sergio for starting this off.

Hi CCampers,

We would like to provide more context to multi-stage label approach for bet=
ter understanding.  OTN is inherently a hierarchical network, and there are=
/will be cases where service ODU has to go through mandatory creation of mo=
re than one layer because of various technical/economic reasons. We are lis=
ting here requirements for supporting services over hierarchical OTN networ=
k.


1.      [R1] Support signaling mechanism to instantiate ODUj service layer =
on a ODUk link via single stage muxing.



A ODUj LSP could involve zero (j=3Dk) or one stage (j<k) multiplexing on a =
given ODUk link. Here both Control-plane and Data-plane entities are create=
d for the ODUj service layer. ODUk link could be a point-to-point OTUk link=
 or a H-LSP.



2.      [R2] Support signaling mechanism to instantiate one or more interme=
diate layers on a ODUk link in order to support the ODUj service layer.



A ODUj LSP could involve two or more stage multiplexing on a given ODUk lin=
k. These intermediate layers can be implicitly created as a part of ODUj se=
rvice LSP creation. In this case, both controlplane and dataplane entities =
will be created for the ODUj service layer. However, intermediate ODU layer=
(s) (implicitly created) will have dataplane representation only.



3.      [R3] Support signaling mechanism to instantiate ODUj service layer =
on a ODUk link where one or more intermediate ODU layers may be pre-existin=
g.



A ODUj LSP could involve two or more stage multiplexing on a given ODUk lin=
k. These intermediate layers may be pre-existing  as a result of another LS=
P creation on the same ODU hierarchy or explicitly configured through manag=
ement interface.



4.      [R4] Support signaling mechanism where ODUj service LSP creation ma=
y involve varying mux hierarchies on each hop



An end-to-end ODUj service LSP creation may involve zero or more stage ODU =
multiplexing on every hop in the path. Basically,the scenarios discussed in=
 R1 to R3 could be associated with any of the hops involved.



5.      [R5] Support signaling mechanism for egress control of OTN interfac=
es



An egress interface of a ODUj LSP could involve single or multiple stage mu=
ltiplexing. Egress Label sub-object defined in [RFC-4003] must be used to s=
ignal hierarchical multiplexing information pertaining to the egress interf=
ace of the LSP.



6.      [R6] Support signaling mechanism when ODUj service LSP creation req=
uires induced or manually created H-LSP.

Based on the above requirements, following is the comparison between two dr=
afts under discussion.


Requirement

Draft-Zhang

Draft-Khuzema

R1

Supported

Supported

R2

Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers

Supported without H-LSPs. Achieves scalability and better restoration perfo=
rmance.

R3

Supported using H-LSPs for each non-existing HO-ODU layers

Supported without H-LSPs

R4

Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers

Supported without H-LSPs

R5

Not Supported

Supported

R6

Supported using H-LSP

Supported using H-LSP



Would like to hear opinions.

Authors draft-khuzema


From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of G=
RANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 6:53 PM
To: 'CCAMP'
Subject: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status

Hello CCampers,

Currently two drafts exist for the signaling of LSPs in OTN technology.
The two drafts, namely draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709 and
draft-khuzema-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709, contain a lot of similarities
but are fundamentally different with respect to the support of multi-stage =
technology.

Draft-zhang proposes to deal with multi-stage technology via the usage
of H-LSPs as already defined in RFC6107. With this approach all LSPs
belonging to intermediate layers of a hierarchy are signaled as separate H-=
LSPs.
Monitoring, protection and restoration functionalities are applicable indep=
endently to each LSP.

Draft-khuzema proposes to introduce a new multi-stage label concept so that
a single construct contains labels associated to more then one hierarchical=
 level.
This implies that all level in the OTN  hierarchy with the exclusion of ser=
vice levels
are not visible as single LSPs.
Each layer cannot be independently monitored.
Only the service layer (the layer with the finest granularity) can be prote=
cted or restored.

Advantages and disadvantages of both approaches can be summarized in short,=
 telling that
the H-LSP approach is able to work in any situation while the multi-stage l=
abel approach is suitable
on single hops or similar situations (reached signaling before an H-LSP) bu=
t, when used,
optimizes processing.

As such we perceive the Draft-khuzema approach as an optimization that coul=
d be supported in an optional way.

Before going on with merging of the two drafts we would like to hear opinio=
ns from CCampers.

Pietro & Sergio

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Pietro Vittorio Grandi
Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
Tel: +39 039 686 4930
Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute. That's rel=
ativity.
(A. Einstein)



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<DIV><SPAN class=3D278423212-28062011><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff si=
ze=3D2>Hi=20
Khuzema,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D278423212-28062011><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D278423212-28062011><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff si=
ze=3D2>Thanks=20
for quick reply, please find further comments inline [DC].</FONT></SPAN></D=
IV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D278423212-28062011><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D278423212-28062011><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Thanks,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D278423212-28062011><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Daniele</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Khuzema Pithewan=20
[mailto:kpithewan@infinera.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> marted=EC 28 giugno 2011=20
13.26<BR><B>To:</B> Daniele Ceccarelli; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO=20
VITTORIO); 'CCAMP'<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: OTN signalling drafts=20
status<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
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<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-seri=
f'">Hi=20
Daniele,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-seri=
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<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-seri=
f'">Pls=20
see inline.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-seri=
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<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-seri=
f'">Thanks<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-seri=
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 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium non=
e; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN><=
/B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> Daniele Cecc=
arelli=20
[mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, June 28,=
 2011=20
2:51 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Khuzema Pithewan; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO=20
VITTORIO); 'CCAMP'<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: OTN signalling drafts=20
status<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">H=
i=20
Khuzema,</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">t=
hanks=20
for the requirements and the comparison.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I=
=20
have&nbsp;a question and would like to add some=20
requirements.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Q=
1:=20
Could you please clarify why R2 can be addressed in a&nbsp;more scalable wa=
y and=20
with better performances with the multi stage=20
approach?</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-seri=
f'">[KP]=20
Using multi-stage you avoid back and forth setup of LSPs on single hop for=
=20
mandatory higher layers. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3D278423212-28062011><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>[DC]:&nbsp;I tend to agree&nbsp;on scalability. Maybe it is worth=
=20
quantifying&nbsp;the time saved and defining what "better performance=20
means".</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3D278423212-28062011></SPAN><SPAN=20
class=3D278423212-28062011></SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-seri=
f'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">[=
R7]=20
Backward compatibility</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></S=
PAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-seri=
f'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">H=
ow=20
could an RFC 6107 based implementation interwork with a node using the=20
multistage label only?</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></o:p>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-seri=
f'">[KP]=20
Multi-stage label construct is actually a N-Stage Label. The Label tells ho=
w=20
many stages it is covering. If Peer Node doesn=92t support multi-stage, the=
n=20
Multi-stage Label construct can be used as single stage label.<SPAN=20
class=3D278423212-28062011><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-seri=
f'"><SPAN=20
class=3D278423212-28062011><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>[DC]=
 the=20
signaling from a single-stage label node to a multi-stage label=20
node</FONT>&nbsp;<FONT face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>would implies =
that the=20
multi-stage label node MUST understand also single-stage labels. On the oth=
er=20
side the signaling from a multi-stage label node to a single-stage label no=
de=20
using a multi-stage label would cause a cranck-back and a second attempt wi=
th a=20
single-stage label, correct? </FONT></SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-seri=
f'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">[=
R8]=20
Restoration per layer</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">S=
uppose=20
to have a ODU1-&gt;ODU3-&gt;ODU4 hierarchy that needs to be restored and th=
ere=20
is no ODU4 link available, but there are 2 ODU3 available on different path=
s and=20
i could potentially restore the 2 ODU3 independently. Is this allowed by th=
e=20
multi stage label approach?</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-seri=
f'">[KP]=20
I am not sure, If I have understood your question. If ODU1 is your service =
ODU,=20
then all you are interested in restoring that ODU. The multiplexing hierarc=
hy is=20
local to a link (a link can be one hop physical span or a H-LSP). The link=
=20
property will determine whether multi-stage is required or not.<SPAN=20
class=3D278423212-28062011><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-seri=
f'"><SPAN=20
class=3D278423212-28062011><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>[DC]=
 what i mean=20
is that&nbsp;an operator would like to restore the ODU4, the ODU3 or the si=
ngle=20
ODU1. In my opinion it should be possible to&nbsp;provide the means for=20
restoring at each layer.&nbsp;ITU-T states that it must be possible to prot=
ect=20
each layer independently...so i think this could be inherited as: the GMPLS=
 must=20
allow restoring each layer independently. Then it is an operator choice whe=
ther=20
to provide resiliency only at the service layer or at all of=20
them.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-seri=
f'"><SPAN=20
class=3D278423212-28062011></SPAN></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-seri=
f'"><SPAN=20
class=3D278423212-28062011></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-seri=
f'"><SPAN=20
class=3D278423212-28062011>&nbsp;</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-seri=
f'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">F=
inally,=20
i think that supporting both types of labels could be a good compromise, ma=
ybe=20
the single stage one as mandatory and the multi stage as=20
optional</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN=
></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-seri=
f'">[KP]=20
Since multi-stage label construct can be used as single stage also (Num Of =
Mux=20
Stages=3D1), All we need is an advertisement for a link, that if it can sup=
port=20
moreThanOneStage or not to make it interoperable with only single stage=20
implementations.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<SPAN class=3D278423212-28062011><FONT face=3DAr=
ial=20
size=3D2>[DC]&nbsp; A new node could tell via the routing whether it suppor=
ts the=20
multistage label or not: in that case the signaling can be performed using =
the=20
multistage label, otherwise single one. But an old node wouldn't advertise =
this=20
capability. It is again a matter of attempts failed vs attempts=20
successfull.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-seri=
f'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">B=
R</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">D=
aniele</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=3Dcenter>
<HR align=3Dcenter width=3D"100%" SIZE=3D2>
</DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN><=
/B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">=20
ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] <B>On Behalf Of=20
</B>Khuzema Pithewan<BR><B>Sent:</B> marted=EC 28 giugno 2011 6.23<BR><B>To=
:</B>=20
GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); 'CCAMP'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:=20
[CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Th=
anks=20
Pietro and Sergio for starting this off.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Hi=
=20
CCampers, <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-seri=
f'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">We=
 would=20
like to provide more context to multi-stage label approach for better=20
understanding.&nbsp; OTN is inherently a hierarchical network, and there=20
are/will be cases where service ODU has to go through mandatory creation of=
 more=20
than one layer because of various technical/economic reasons. We are listin=
g=20
here requirements for supporting services over hierarchical OTN=20
network.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%">1.</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 7pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman',=
'serif'">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; BACKGROUND: silver; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; mso-highli=
ght: silver">[R1]</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"> Support signaling mechanism t=
o=20
instantiate ODUj service layer on a ODUk link via single stage muxing.=20
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 11=
5%">A=20
ODUj LSP could involve zero (j=3Dk) or one stage (j&lt;k) multiplexing on a=
 given=20
ODUk link. Here both Control-plane and Data-plane entities are created for =
the=20
ODUj service layer. ODUk link could be a point-to-point OTUk link or a=20
H-LSP.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%">2.</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 7pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman',=
'serif'">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; BACKGROUND: silver; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; mso-highli=
ght: silver">[R2]</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"> Support signaling mechanism t=
o=20
instantiate one or more intermediate layers on a ODUk link in order to supp=
ort=20
the ODUj service layer. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 11=
5%">A=20
ODUj LSP could involve two or more stage multiplexing on a given ODUk link.=
=20
These intermediate layers can be implicitly created as a part of ODUj servi=
ce=20
LSP creation. In this case, both controlplane and dataplane entities will b=
e=20
created for the ODUj service layer. However, intermediate ODU layer(s)=20
(implicitly created) will have dataplane representation only.=20
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%">3.</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 7pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman',=
'serif'">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; BACKGROUND: silver; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; mso-highli=
ght: silver">[R3]</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"> Support signaling mechanism t=
o=20
instantiate ODUj service layer on a ODUk link where one or more intermediat=
e ODU=20
layers may be pre-existing. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 11=
5%">A=20
ODUj LSP could involve two or more stage multiplexing on a given ODUk link.=
=20
These intermediate layers may be pre-existing&nbsp; as a result of another =
LSP=20
creation on the same ODU hierarchy or explicitly configured through managem=
ent=20
interface. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%">4.</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 7pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman',=
'serif'">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; BACKGROUND: silver; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; mso-highli=
ght: silver">[R4]</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"> Support signaling mechanism w=
here=20
ODUj service LSP creation may involve varying mux hierarchies on each hop=20
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 11=
5%">An=20
end-to-end ODUj service LSP creation may involve zero or more stage ODU=20
multiplexing on every hop in the path. Basically,the scenarios discussed in=
 R1=20
to R3 could be associated with any of the hops involved.&nbsp;=20
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%">5.</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 7pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman',=
'serif'">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; BACKGROUND: silver; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; mso-highli=
ght: silver">[R5]</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"> Support signaling mechanism f=
or=20
egress control of OTN interfaces <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 11=
5%">An=20
egress interface of a ODUj LSP could involve single or multiple stage=20
multiplexing. Egress Label sub-object defined in [RFC-4003] must be used to=
=20
signal hierarchical multiplexing information pertaining to the egress inter=
face=20
of the LSP.&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%">6.</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 7pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman',=
'serif'">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; BACKGROUND: silver; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; mso-highli=
ght: silver">[R6]</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"> Support signaling mechanism w=
hen=20
ODUj service LSP creation requires induced or manually created=20
H-LSP.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-seri=
f'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Ba=
sed on=20
the above requirements, following is the comparison between two drafts unde=
r=20
discussion.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-seri=
f'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-seri=
f'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<TABLE class=3DMsoNormalTable style=3D"WIDTH: 6.65in; BORDER-COLLAPSE: coll=
apse"=20
cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 width=3D638 border=3D0>
  <TBODY>
  <TR>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; BACKGROUND: #c4bc96; PAD=
DING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; WIDTH: 81.9pt; PADDING=
-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D109>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Requirement<o:p></o:p><=
/SPAN></P></TD>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; BACKGROUND: #c4bc96; PAD=
DING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; WIDTH: 166.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 0i=
n; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D222>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Draft-Zhang<o:p></o:p><=
/SPAN></P></TD>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; BACKGROUND: #c4bc96; PAD=
DING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; WIDTH: 3.2in; PADDING-TOP: 0in;=
 BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D307>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Draft-Khuzema<o:p></o:p=
></SPAN></P></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:=
 windowtext 1pt solid; WIDTH: 81.9pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: wind=
owtext 1pt solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D109>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">R1<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P=
></TD>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:=
 medium none; WIDTH: 166.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1=
pt solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D222>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Supported<o:p></o:p></S=
PAN></P></TD>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:=
 medium none; WIDTH: 3.2in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt=
 solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D307>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Supported<o:p></o:p></S=
PAN></P></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:=
 windowtext 1pt solid; WIDTH: 81.9pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: wind=
owtext 1pt solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D109>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">R2<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P=
></TD>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:=
 medium none; WIDTH: 166.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1=
pt solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D222>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Supported using H-LSPs =
for=20
      each HO-ODU layers<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></TD>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:=
 medium none; WIDTH: 3.2in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt=
 solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D307>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Supported without H-LSP=
s.=20
      Achieves scalability and better restoration=20
      performance.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:=
 windowtext 1pt solid; WIDTH: 81.9pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: wind=
owtext 1pt solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D109>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">R3<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P=
></TD>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:=
 medium none; WIDTH: 166.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1=
pt solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D222>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Supported using H-LSPs =
for=20
      each non-existing HO-ODU layers <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></TD>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:=
 medium none; WIDTH: 3.2in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt=
 solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D307>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Supported without=20
      H-LSPs<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:=
 windowtext 1pt solid; WIDTH: 81.9pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: wind=
owtext 1pt solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D109>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">R4<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P=
></TD>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:=
 medium none; WIDTH: 166.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1=
pt solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D222>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Supported using H-LSPs =
for=20
      each HO-ODU layers<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></TD>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:=
 medium none; WIDTH: 3.2in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt=
 solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D307>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Supported without=20
      H-LSPs<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:=
 windowtext 1pt solid; WIDTH: 81.9pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: wind=
owtext 1pt solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D109>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">R5<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P=
></TD>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:=
 medium none; WIDTH: 166.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1=
pt solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D222>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-seri=
f'">Not=20
      Supported<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></TD>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:=
 medium none; WIDTH: 3.2in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt=
 solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D307>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Supported<o:p></o:p></S=
PAN></P></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:=
 windowtext 1pt solid; WIDTH: 81.9pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: wind=
owtext 1pt solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D109>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">R6<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P=
></TD>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:=
 medium none; WIDTH: 166.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1=
pt solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D222>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Supported using=20
      H-LSP<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></TD>
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORD=
ER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT:=
 medium none; WIDTH: 3.2in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt=
 solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D307>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Supported using=20
      H-LSP<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-seri=
f'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Wo=
uld like=20
to hear opinions.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Au=
thors=20
draft-khuzema<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-seri=
f'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-seri=
f'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df=
 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium non=
e; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN><=
/B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">=20
ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] <B>On Behalf Of=20
</B>GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June =
27,=20
2011 6:53 PM<BR><B>To:</B> 'CCAMP'<BR><B>Subject:</B> [CCAMP] OTN signallin=
g=20
drafts status<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Hello=20
CCampers,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></=
SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Currently two=
 drafts=20
exist for the signaling of LSPs in OTN technology.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></D=
IV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">The two draft=
s,=20
namely draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709 and <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DI=
V>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">draft-khuzema=
-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709,=20
contain a lot of similarities<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">but are=20
fundamentally different with respect to the support of multi-stage=20
technology.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></=
SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Draft-zhang p=
roposes=20
to deal with multi-stage technology via the usage<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DI=
V>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">of H-LSPs as =
already=20
defined in RFC6107. With this approach all LSPs<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">belonging to=
=20
intermediate layers of a hierarchy are signaled as separate=20
H-LSPs.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Monitoring,=20
protection and restoration functionalities are applicable independently to =
each=20
LSP. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></=
SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Draft-khuzema=
=20
proposes to introduce a new multi-stage label concept so=20
that<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">a single cons=
truct=20
contains labels associated to more then one hierarchical=20
level.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">This implies =
that=20
all level in the OTN&nbsp; hierarchy with the exclusion of service=20
levels<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">are not visib=
le as=20
single LSPs. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Each layer ca=
nnot be=20
independently monitored.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Only the serv=
ice=20
layer (the layer with the finest granularity) can be protected or=20
restored.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></=
SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Advantages an=
d=20
disadvantages of both approaches can be summarized in short, telling=20
that<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">the H-LSP app=
roach=20
is able to work in any situation while the multi-stage label approach is=20
suitable <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">on single hop=
s or=20
similar situations (reached signaling before an H-LSP) but, when used,=20
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">optimizes=20
processing.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">&nbsp;<o:p></=
o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">As such we pe=
rceive=20
the Draft-khuzema approach as an optimization that could be supported in an=
=20
optional way.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></=
SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Before going =
on with=20
merging of the two drafts we would like to hear opinions from CCampers.&nbs=
p;=20
&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></=
SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Pietro &amp;=
=20
Sergio<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></=
SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></=
SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Pietro Vittori=
o=20
Grandi</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></=
SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Terrestrial Op=
tics=20
Portfolio Evolution</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></=
SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Alcatel-Lucent=
=20
Vimercate (Italy)</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></=
SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Tel: +39 039 6=
86=20
4930</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></=
SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
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pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></=
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<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Put your hand =
on a=20
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<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sit with a pre=
tty=20
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style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></=
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<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
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<DIV>
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<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
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From lberger@labn.net  Tue Jun 28 06:44:48 2011
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Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 09:44:47 -0400
From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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Subject: [CCAMP] Fwd: Please help the Nomcom
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FYI

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Please help the Nomcom
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 11:35:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: NomCom Chair <nomcom-chair@ietf.org>
To: Working Group Chairs <wgchairs@ietf.org>

Hi WG chairs,
  We have had a good response to the first call for volunteers but the
rate at which new volunteers are coming in is slowing down. The Nomcom
process is best served by a large pool of volunteers drawn from a wide
spectrum of IETF attendees. Where else would we find this wide spectrum
if not in the WG mailing lists.

I would really appreciate it if you can forward the message onto your
working group mailing lists.

The latest volunteer status and the second call for volunteers can be
found at
https://datatracker.ietf.org/ann/nomcom/2964/

Thanks in advance for your help.

Suresh Krishnan
Nomcom Chair 2011-2012
Email: nomcom-chair@ietf.org, suresh.krishnan@ericsson.com





From daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com  Tue Jun 28 06:47:22 2011
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From: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
To: "fu.xihua@zte.com.cn" <fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 15:47:13 +0200
Thread-Topic: Re: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status
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--_000_B5630A95D803744A81C51AD4040A6DAA0A301942B8ESESSCMS0360e_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dgb2312">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6002.18457" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D647571012-28062011><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff si=
ze=3D2>Hi=20
Xihua,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D647571012-28062011><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D647571012-28062011><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff si=
ze=3D2>Let's=20
consider ODU0-&gt;ODU3-&gt;ODU4 hieararchy as in your example.=20
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D647571012-28062011><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D647571012-28062011><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff si=
ze=3D2>What i=20
meant was: if i have an ODU0-&gt;ODU3-&gt;ODU4 hierarchy&nbsp;an=20
operator&nbsp;might want not to be forced to restore che whole hierarchy as=
 it=20
is (i.e. ODU0-&gt;ODU3-&gt;ODU4) along an ODU4 path, but, for example, rest=
ore=20
the 2 ODU3 comprising the hieranchy in an independent manner&nbsp;and possi=
bly=20
on different paths.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D647571012-28062011><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D647571012-28062011><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Suppose that in your example the ODU4 link (L4-L5) get broken. It =
could=20
be possible to restore the path from H3 to H8 using a different ODU4 link, =
or=20
independetly restore the 2 ODU3 (e.g.&nbsp;an ODU3 along H3-L6-L7-H8 and th=
e=20
other one along a different ODU3 path, which could be H3-L8-L9-H8 ODU3 path=
 not=20
in figure). </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D647571012-28062011><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D647571012-28062011><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Thanks,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D647571012-28062011><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Daniele</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> fu.xihua@zte.com.cn=20
[mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn] <BR><B>Sent:</B> marted=A8=AC 28 giugno 2011=20
14.02<BR><B>To:</B> Daniele Ceccarelli<BR><B>Cc:</B> 'CCAMP';=20
ccamp-bounces@ietf.org; Khuzema Pithewan; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO=20
VITTORIO)<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Re: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts=20
status<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>Hi All,</FONT> <BR><BR><FON=
T=20
face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>[R8] is not clear for me. </FONT><BR><FONT=20
face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>What is meaning of &nbsp;<I>ODU1-&gt;ODU3-&gt;OD=
U4=20
hierarchy needs to be restored </I>?</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif siz=
e=3D2>I=20
don't think the activity of restoration will be different because of your l=
abel=20
usage.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>As following figures ill=
ustrate,=20
L4, L5, L6 and L7 couldn't support ODU0 switching capability.</FONT> <BR><F=
ONT=20
face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>You could create ODU3 FA or ODU4 FA along H3-L4-=
L5-H8 for=20
one e2e ODU0 connection.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>After =
failure=20
of fiber between L4 and L5. Operator may cofigure OAM to activate ODU3 or O=
DU4=20
FA restoration first. Operator may also cofigure OAM to activate ODU0=20
restoration first.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>Whatever you=
 do, we=20
may switch the traffic to H3-L6-L7-H8.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif=20
size=3D2>It depends on the OAM configuration, for example, which layer OAM =
could=20
be activated.</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>Single-Stage=
=20
Label:</FONT> <BR><IMG src=3D"cid:647571012@28062011-2334"> <BR><BR><FONT=20
face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>Multi-Stage Label:</FONT> <BR><IMG=20
src=3D"cid:647571012@28062011-233B"> <BR><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=
=3D2>Xihua=20
Fu</FONT> <BR><BR><BR><BR>
<TABLE width=3D"100%">
  <TBODY>
  <TR vAlign=3Dtop>
    <TD width=3D"35%"><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1><B>Daniele Ceccarell=
i=20
      &lt;daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com&gt;</B> </FONT><BR><FONT=20
      face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: &nbsp;ccamp-bounces@ie=
tf.org</FONT>=20
      <P><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>2011-06-28 =CF=C2=CE=E7 05:21</FO=
NT> </P>
    <TD width=3D"64%">
      <TABLE width=3D"100%">
        <TBODY>
        <TR vAlign=3Dtop>
          <TD>
            <DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>=CA=D5=BC=
=FE=C8=CB</FONT></DIV>
          <TD><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>Khuzema Pithewan=20
            &lt;kpithewan@infinera.com&gt;, "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO &nbsp;=
=20
            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(PIETRO VITTORIO)"=20
            &lt;pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com&gt;, 'CCAMP'=20
            &lt;ccamp@ietf.org&gt;</FONT>=20
        <TR vAlign=3Dtop>
          <TD>
            <DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>=B3=AD=CB=
=CD</FONT></DIV>
          <TD>
        <TR vAlign=3Dtop>
          <TD>
            <DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>=D6=F7=CC=
=E2</FONT></DIV>
          <TD><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>Re: [CCAMP] OTN signalling d=
rafts=20
            status</FONT></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR>
      <TABLE>
        <TBODY>
        <TR vAlign=3Dtop>
          <TD>
          <TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><BR><BR><FO=
NT face=3DArial=20
color=3Dblue size=3D2>Hi Khuzema,</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT> <=
BR><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2>thanks for the requirements and the=20
comparison.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial=
=20
color=3Dblue size=3D2>I have a question and would like to add some=20
requirements.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DAria=
l=20
color=3Dblue size=3D2>Q1: Could you please clarify why R2 can be addressed =
in a more=20
scalable way and with better performances with the multi stage approach?</F=
ONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=
=3D2>[R7]=20
Backward compatibility</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2>How could an RFC 6107 based implementati=
on=20
interwork with a node using the multistage label only?</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2>[R8] Re=
storation per=20
layer</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial color=
=3Dblue=20
size=3D2>Suppose to have a ODU1-&gt;ODU3-&gt;ODU4 hierarchy that needs to b=
e=20
restored and there is no ODU4 link available, but there are 2 ODU3 availabl=
e on=20
different paths and i could potentially restore the 2 ODU3 independently. I=
s=20
this allowed by the multi stage label approach?</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2>Finally=
, i think=20
that supporting both types of labels could be a good compromise, maybe the=
=20
single stage one as mandatory and the multi stage as optional</FONT> <BR><F=
ONT=20
size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2>BR</FON=
T> <BR><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2>Daniele</FONT> <BR><BR>
<HR>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> ccamp-bounces@ietf.org=20
[mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Khuzema=20
Pithewan<B><BR>Sent:</B> marted=A8=AC 28 giugno 2011 6.23<B><BR>To:</B> GRA=
NDI,=20
PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); 'CCAMP'<B><BR>Subject:</B> Re: [CCAMP] O=
TN=20
signalling drafts status</FONT><FONT size=3D3><BR></FONT><BR><FONT face=3DC=
alibri=20
size=3D3>Thanks Pietro and Sergio for starting this off.</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
face=3DCalibri size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DCalibri size=3D3>Hi =
CCampers,=20
</FONT><BR><FONT face=3DCalibri color=3D#1f497d size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR>=
<FONT=20
face=3DCalibri size=3D3>We would like to provide more context to multi-stag=
e label=20
approach for better understanding. &nbsp;OTN is inherently a hierarchical=20
network, and there are/will be cases where service ODU has to go through=20
mandatory creation of more than one layer because of various technical/econ=
omic=20
reasons. We are listing here requirements for supporting services over=20
hierarchical OTN network.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DCalibri size=3D3>1. &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp;[R1]=20
Support signaling mechanism to instantiate ODUj service layer on a ODUk lin=
k via=20
single stage muxing. </FONT><BR><FONT face=3DCalibri size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT>=
=20
<BR><FONT face=3DCalibri size=3D3>A ODUj LSP could involve zero (j=3Dk) or =
one stage=20
(j&lt;k) multiplexing on a given ODUk link. Here both Control-plane and=20
Data-plane entities are created for the ODUj service layer. ODUk link could=
 be a=20
point-to-point OTUk link or a H-LSP.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DCalibri=20
size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DCalibri size=3D3>2. &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp;[R2]=20
Support signaling mechanism to instantiate one or more intermediate layers =
on a=20
ODUk link in order to support the ODUj service layer. </FONT><BR><FONT=20
face=3DCalibri size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DCalibri size=3D3>A O=
DUj LSP could=20
involve two or more stage multiplexing on a given ODUk link. These intermed=
iate=20
layers can be implicitly created as a part of ODUj service LSP creation. In=
 this=20
case, both controlplane and dataplane entities will be created for the ODUj=
=20
service layer. However, intermediate ODU layer(s) (implicitly created) will=
 have=20
dataplane representation only. </FONT><BR><FONT face=3DCalibri=20
size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DCalibri size=3D3>3. &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp;[R3]=20
Support signaling mechanism to instantiate ODUj service layer on a ODUk lin=
k=20
where one or more intermediate ODU layers may be pre-existing. </FONT><BR><=
FONT=20
face=3DCalibri size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DCalibri size=3D3>A O=
DUj LSP could=20
involve two or more stage multiplexing on a given ODUk link. These intermed=
iate=20
layers may be pre-existing &nbsp;as a result of another LSP creation on the=
 same=20
ODU hierarchy or explicitly configured through management interface.=20
</FONT><BR><FONT face=3DCalibri size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DCal=
ibri=20
size=3D3>4. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;[R4] Support signaling mechanism where ODUj=
=20
service LSP creation may involve varying mux hierarchies on each hop=20
</FONT><BR><FONT face=3DCalibri size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DCal=
ibri=20
size=3D3>An end-to-end ODUj service LSP creation may involve zero or more s=
tage=20
ODU multiplexing on every hop in the path. Basically,the scenarios discusse=
d in=20
R1 to R3 could be associated with any of the hops involved. &nbsp;</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT face=3DCalibri size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DCalibri si=
ze=3D3>5.=20
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;[R5] Support signaling mechanism for egress control of =
OTN=20
interfaces </FONT><BR><FONT face=3DCalibri size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT=
=20
face=3DCalibri size=3D3>An egress interface of a ODUj LSP could involve sin=
gle or=20
multiple stage multiplexing. Egress Label sub-object defined in [RFC-4003] =
must=20
be used to signal hierarchical multiplexing information pertaining to the e=
gress=20
interface of the LSP. &nbsp; </FONT><BR><FONT face=3DCalibri size=3D3>&nbsp=
;</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT face=3DCalibri size=3D3>6. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;[R6] Support signa=
ling=20
mechanism when ODUj service LSP creation requires induced or manually creat=
ed=20
H-LSP.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DCalibri color=3D#1f497d size=3D2>&nbsp;</FON=
T>=20
<BR><FONT face=3DCalibri size=3D3>Based on the above requirements, followin=
g is the=20
comparison between two drafts under discussion.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DCal=
ibri=20
color=3D#1f497d size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DCalibri color=3D#1f=
497d=20
size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT>=20
<P>
<TABLE border=3D3>
  <TBODY>
  <TR vAlign=3Dtop>
    <TD bgColor=3D#c4bc96><FONT face=3DCalibri size=3D3>Requirement</FONT>=
=20
    <TD bgColor=3D#c4bc96><FONT face=3DCalibri size=3D3>Draft-Zhang</FONT>=
=20
    <TD bgColor=3D#c4bc96><FONT face=3DCalibri size=3D3>Draft-Khuzema</FONT=
>=20
  <TR vAlign=3Dtop>
    <TD><FONT face=3DCalibri size=3D3>R1</FONT>=20
    <TD><FONT face=3DCalibri size=3D3>Supported</FONT>=20
    <TD><FONT face=3DCalibri size=3D3>Supported</FONT>=20
  <TR vAlign=3Dtop>
    <TD><FONT face=3DCalibri size=3D3>R2</FONT>=20
    <TD><FONT face=3DCalibri size=3D3>Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-OD=
U=20
      layers</FONT>=20
    <TD><FONT face=3DCalibri size=3D3>Supported without H-LSPs. Achieves=20
      scalability and better restoration performance.</FONT>=20
  <TR vAlign=3Dtop>
    <TD><FONT face=3DCalibri size=3D3>R3</FONT>=20
    <TD><FONT face=3DCalibri size=3D3>Supported using H-LSPs for each non-e=
xisting=20
      HO-ODU layers </FONT>
    <TD><FONT face=3DCalibri size=3D3>Supported without H-LSPs</FONT>=20
  <TR vAlign=3Dtop>
    <TD><FONT face=3DCalibri size=3D3>R4</FONT>=20
    <TD><FONT face=3DCalibri size=3D3>Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-OD=
U=20
      layers</FONT>=20
    <TD><FONT face=3DCalibri size=3D3>Supported without H-LSPs</FONT>=20
  <TR vAlign=3Dtop>
    <TD><FONT face=3DCalibri size=3D3>R5</FONT>=20
    <TD><FONT face=3DCalibri size=3D3>Not Supported</FONT>=20
    <TD><FONT face=3DCalibri size=3D3>Supported</FONT>=20
  <TR vAlign=3Dtop>
    <TD><FONT face=3DCalibri size=3D3>R6</FONT>=20
    <TD><FONT face=3DCalibri size=3D3>Supported using H-LSP</FONT>=20
    <TD><FONT face=3DCalibri size=3D3>Supported using=20
H-LSP</FONT></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><FONT face=3DCalibri size=3D3>&nbsp;</=
FONT>=20
<BR><FONT face=3DCalibri color=3D#1f497d size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT f=
ace=3DCalibri=20
size=3D3>Would like to hear opinions.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DCalibri=20
size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DCalibri size=3D3>Authors draft-khuz=
ema</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT face=3DCalibri color=3D#1f497d size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT f=
ace=3DCalibri=20
color=3D#1f497d size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>=
From:</B>=20
ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] <B>On Behalf Of=20
</B>GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)<B><BR>Sent:</B> Monday, June =
27,=20
2011 6:53 PM<B><BR>To:</B> 'CCAMP'<B><BR>Subject:</B> [CCAMP] OTN signallin=
g=20
drafts status</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>&nbsp;</FO=
NT>=20
<BR><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>Hello CCampers,</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>Currently two drafts exist for the signaling of LSPs in OTN=20
technology.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>The two drafts, namely=
=20
draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709 and </FONT><BR><FONT face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>draft-khuzema-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709, contain a lot of=20
similarities</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>but are fundamentally =
different=20
with respect to the support of multi-stage technology.</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>Draft-zhang proposes to deal with multi-stage technology via the=20
usage</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>of H-LSPs as already defined =
in=20
RFC6107. With this approach all LSPs</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>belonging to intermediate layers of a hierarchy are signaled as se=
parate=20
H-LSPs.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>Monitoring, protection and=
=20
restoration functionalities are applicable independently to each LSP.=20
</FONT><BR><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT=
=20
face=3DTahoma size=3D2>Draft-khuzema proposes to introduce a new multi-stag=
e label=20
concept so that</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>a single construct =
contains=20
labels associated to more then one hierarchical level.</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma size=3D2>This implies that all level in the OTN &nbsp;hierarc=
hy with=20
the exclusion of service levels</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>are=
 not=20
visible as single LSPs. </FONT><BR><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>Each layer =
cannot be=20
independently monitored.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>Only the s=
ervice=20
layer (the layer with the finest granularity) can be protected or=20
restored.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma size=3D2>Advantages and disadvantages of both approaches can =
be=20
summarized in short, telling that</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>t=
he H-LSP=20
approach is able to work in any situation while the multi-stage label appro=
ach=20
is suitable </FONT><BR><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>on single hops or simil=
ar=20
situations (reached signaling before an H-LSP) but, when used, </FONT><BR><=
FONT=20
face=3DTahoma size=3D2>optimizes processing.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DTahoma=
=20
size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>As such we perceive=
 the=20
Draft-khuzema approach as an optimization that could be supported in an opt=
ional=20
way.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><=
FONT=20
face=3DTahoma size=3D2>Before going on with merging of the two drafts we wo=
uld like=20
to hear opinions from CCampers. &nbsp; &nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DTahoma siz=
e=3D2>Pietro=20
&amp; Sergio</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2>&nbsp;</FON=
T>=20
<BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Pietro Vittorio Grandi</FONT> <BR><FONT fac=
e=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DAri=
al=20
size=3D2>Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial siz=
e=3D2>Tel:=20
+39 039 686 4930</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Mail:=20
pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</FONT> <=
BR><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an=20
hour.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sit with a pretty girl for an =
hour, and=20
it seems like a &nbsp;minute. That's relativity.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DAr=
ial=20
size=3D2>(A. Einstein)</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3D"Trebuchet MS" size=3D2>&nbs=
p;</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT><FONT=20
size=3D2><TT>_______________________________________________<BR>CCAMP maili=
ng=20
list<BR>CCAMP@ietf.org<BR>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp<BR></=
TT></FONT><BR></P></BODY></HTML>

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--_005_B5630A95D803744A81C51AD4040A6DAA0A301942B8ESESSCMS0360e_--

From pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com  Tue Jun 28 07:43:37 2011
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From: "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 16:43:10 +0200
Thread-Topic: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Hello John,

1) You have forwarded to the CCamp mailing list a number of private mails w=
ithout asking the permission to the involved people. This is impolite and u=
nprofessional.

2) You are creating spam on the mailing list forwarding four threads that a=
re each hundreds of lines long and very complicated to follow for people no=
t involved in the discussion since the beginning. Moreover, this happened a=
fter a discussion from scratch was already started in the mailing list.

3) You moved from a technical discussion to arrogant and deliberate persona=
l offenses not supported by any sound technical motivation as reported in y=
our mails and snipped below:

"This shows a complete lack of understanding of hierarchical LSP, multi-sta=
ge labels, and GMPLS in general.  It is so bad it is not even wrong."

" It might be more precise to say I reviewed your slides and found them, sh=
all we say, lacking."

We hope that from now on the discussion can be continued from a purely tech=
nical point of view.

Pietro, Sergio and Daniele

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Pietro Vittorio Grandi
Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
Tel: +39 039 686 4930
Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute. That's rel=
ativity.
(A. Einstein)

-----Original Message-----
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of J=
ohn E Drake
Sent: marted=EC 28 giugno 2011 14.13
To: CCAMP
Subject: [CCAMP] FW: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage



Sent from my iPhone


-----Original Message-----
From: John E Drake
Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 3:56 PM
To: 'Fatai Zhang'; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan Hardwick=
; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; St=
eve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); =
Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli
Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

Fatai,

Comments inline.

Thanks,

John

Sent from my iPhone


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fatai Zhang [mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com]
> Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 9:45 AM
> To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); John E Drake
> Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan
> Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -
> Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham; BELOTTI,
> SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli
> Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
> Hi John,
>
> I guess that you did not review our slides carefully.

JD:  I will let this pass.

>
> You just see the only advantage for the corner case (i.e., establish
> multi-layers LSP concurrently), but you did not see the issues that we
> described in the slides and the issues that Jonathan mentioned (eg.,
> OAM/protection issues).

JD:  I'm sorry that I didn't provide enough context.  I don't think the one=
-hop hierarchical LSP case, w/ or w/o multi-stage labels is either interest=
ing or common and it was not the case to which I was addressing my comments=
.  Rather, I was describing two ways of establishing multi-hop multi-stage =
hierarchical LSPs.  As far as I can tell the issues Jonathan raised in this=
 context are red herrings rather than blue whales.  Furthermore, regardless=
 of which of the two approaches I described is used, the issues, if any, wo=
uld be exactly the same.

>
> In addition, we have repeated many times that LSP hierarchy must be
> used in many cases, even though we have multi-stage label approach.
> E.g., an ODU0 connection request from A to E through B, C and D, but B,
> C and  D (or one of them ) can not support ODU0 switching, the HO ODUj
> (ODU1 or ODU2 or ODU3 or ODU4) LSP must be created between B and D
> through LSP hierarchy. This example is very simple and there are lots
> of transforms for this example to use LSP hierarchy.

JD:  Please see above.  I completely agree with you and was simply pointing=
 out that multi-stage labels can be used to improve wrt latency and control=
 plane overhead, the establishment of ODUj LSPs within multi-stage hierarch=
ical LSPs.

>
>
>
>
> Fatai
>
> Thanks
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John E Drake" <jdrake@juniper.net>
> To: "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)"
> <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> Cc: "Daniele Ceccarelli" <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>; "Rajan Rao"
> <rrao@infinera.com>; "Fatai Zhang" <zhangfatai@huawei.com>; "Khuzema
> Pithewan" <kpithewan@infinera.com>; "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)"
> <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>; "Ashok Kunjidhapatham"
> <akunjidhapatham@infinera.com>; "Diego Caviglia"
> <diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>; "Steve Balls"
> <Steve.Balls@metaswitch.com>; "Ciena - Lyndon Ong" <LyOng@Ciena.com>;
> <fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; "NSN - Cyril Margaria" <cyril.margaria@nsn.com>;
> "Li Dan" <huawei.danli@huawei.com>; "Jonathan Hardwick"
> <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>; "Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler"
> <jonathan.sadler@tellabs.com>; "Vallinayakam Somasundaram"
> <valli@juniper.net>
> Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 7:21 PM
> Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
>
> Pietro,
>
> If we are talking about the establishment of LSPs using single-stage
> muxing, I think the only thing necessary is a new label format, which I
> believe is a bit map of tributary slots; i.e., LSP establishment using
> single-stage muxing is done.
>
> We have never had a situation such as multi-stage muxing before so we
> are breaking new ground and we have two choices, either use LSP
> hierarchy to establish multiple single-stage sub-layer LSPs explicitly
> and sequentially, or include the sub-layer information within the Path
> message for the ODUj such that the sub-layers are established
> implicitly and concurrently with the establishment of the ODUj.
>
> Either will work, but it seems to me that the latter is more efficient
> wrt latency and control plane overhead.  The one thing I do not want to
> do is to say that both are supported.  If we can agree that we will
> only use one method to establish multi-stage LSPs, then when a node
> advertises multi-stage support in routing, we know how signaling is to
> be accomplished.
>
> Thanks,
>
> John
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 1:31 AM
> > To: John E Drake
> > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia; Steve
> > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril Margaria;
> > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam
> > Somasundaram; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > John,
> >
> > It seems as though you consider on the same level something (H-LSP
> > concept) already used in CP managing multi-layer with something that
> > does not exist at all.
> > Operators are used to managed their CP network together with NMS.
> > Most of the NMS work per-layer. The utilization of a multi-stage
> label
> > would force NMS to work in another manner with heavy implementation
> > consequences.
> >
> > We should also keep in mind that multi-stage label approach can only
> be
> > used in some cases (not for all the one-hop multi-stage muxing) and
> it
> > will bring some management issues. Please see the slides that Fatai
> > sent a few days ago.
> >
> > For both these reasons the "optional" condition of multi-stage label
> > concept is absolutely mandatory for us.
> >
> > Pietro, Sergio, Fatai & Daniele
> >
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> > Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> > Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
> > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.
> That's
> > relativity.
> > (A. Einstein)
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > Sent: sabato 18 giugno 2011 2.40
> > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia; Steve
> > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril Margaria;
> > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam
> > Somasundaram
> > Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > Pietro,
> >
> > We can certainly say that a node that advertises multistage switching
> > support in routing MUST support multistage signaling.
> >
> > As I said before, using mutiple RSVP exchanges between the same LSP
> > endpoints to establish intermediate switching stages seems ill-
> > considered and forcing everyone to support two ways of signaling
> > multistage LSPs seems like a really Bad Idea.
> >
> > John
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Jun 17, 2011, at 2:55 AM, "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO
> > VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-
> > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Hello John,
> >
> > I understand that you think that the new switching type in routing
> > should also convey implicitly the information that a
> > multi-stage label is supported.
> >
> > I do not agree with this statement.
> > Implementations using H-LSPs plus single stage labels are possible
> (and
> > already standard) and the fact the a node supports
> > the new switching type is not enough to clearly tell what is
> supported.
> >
> > Pietro
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > Sent: venerd=EC 17 giugno 2011 2.09
> > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); Daniele Ceccarelli;
> > Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO);
> > Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon
> > Ong'; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> Sadler';
> > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > Pietro,
> >
> > Actually we are already covered.   Our advertisements use a different
> > switching type, which is also carried in signaling.  This means that
> we
> > get to define the signaling used for this switching type, and I am
> > proposing that we use multistage.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > John
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 6:52 AM
> > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema
> > Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego
> > Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> Sadler';
> > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I  agree with Daniele' statement.
> >
> > in my mind this means that single stage label support is implicit and
> > that
> > multi-stage labels should not be used unless a machine explicitly
> > declares the support.
> >
> > Pietro
> >
> >
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> > Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> > Mail: <mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-
> > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
> > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.
> That's
> > relativity.
> > (A. Einstein)
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]
> > Sent: gioved=EC 16 giugno 2011 15.48
> > To: John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan; BELOTTI,
> > SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO
> (PIETRO
> > VITTORIO); Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> Sadler';
> > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > Subject: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > Starting a new thread as we're now moving to signaling...
> >
> > Assuming we still have not decided whether we're going to support
> > single stage only, multi stage only or both of them i believe that as
> > per OSPF we need to consider backward compatibility.
> >
> > An implementation RFC4328 based (that we've explicitly been told not
> to
> > deprecate) is single stage based, so in case of multi stage only or
> > multi-stage + single stage we should be able to cover backward
> > compatibility issues somehow.
> >
> > BR
> > Daniele
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > Sent: gioved=EC 16 giugno 2011 8.53
> > To: Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham
> > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;
> 'Steve
> > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> Sadler';
> > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for multi-
> > stage Vs Single Stage labels)
> > Rajan,
> >
> > I didn't want to allow interoperability options.  I much preferred to
> > say that we do signaling in one way only, using multistage labels.
> > These are also needed for signaling within  hierarchical LSPs.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > John
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > From: Rajan Rao [mailto:rrao@infinera.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 10:46 PM
> > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; John E Drake; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham
> > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;
> 'Steve
> > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> Sadler';
> > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for multi-
> > stage Vs Single Stage labels)
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > While we are making updates, let us discuss support required in link
> > advertisement for single/multi-stage label options:
> >
> > Given that there is interest in both multi-stage label and single-
> stage
> > with H-LSPs, we should consider inclusion of a FLAG to indicate what
> > the link is capable of.  This will address some of the issues we have
> > discussed in the past relating to path computation involving NEs with
> > different capabilities (inter-op).
> >
> > Thanks
> > Rajan
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Subject: [CCAMP] Moving the WSON discussion forward (Was Re: TR: New Version Notification fordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt)
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Young,
	I think we have a substantive document that satisfies my request for "a
document that can serve as the foundation for discussion" on their proposal.

All,
	Perhaps it would be worthwhile to focus the discussion on the specific
proposed changes and understanding the motivation for each.  I propose
that we first focus on the Information model changes.


Authors of draft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo,

	Can you please list any major change made in Section 2 and
explain/justify each proposed change? For example, discuss/justify your
proposal to have multiple resource pools vs the single pool model in
ccamp-rwa-info. (Note the BNF for multiple pools is missing, but is
implied by Figure 1.)

Once we have closure on major changes, we can move on to the more minor
changes in the section as well as changes in encoding (your section 3.)

My hope is to resolve the open issues on the list prior to Quebec, but
suspect we'll need the WG session to help close the issues.

Lou

On 6/27/2011 4:32 PM, Leeyoung wrote:
> Hi Pierre,
> 
> Please recall the WG chair's request to you in the last IETF meeting
> that the information you are to provide has to be comprehensive and
> complete so that others can understand the points you are making.
> 
> Having reviewed your document, I think you need to provide the
> diagram of the node configuration you used as the basis of your
> analysis in the similar fashion to the current encoding draft.
> 
> You mentioned that "For the small nodes, 5 different type of
> regenerators are considered, for the Middle and Large ones 10
> different type of regenerators are considered." -- Please provide
> your node diagrams for these cases so that we can provide our
> analysis. Until you provide the exact node configuration with these
> many OEO elements, it is not possible for us to proceed with the
> meaning comparisons.
> 
> Regards, Young
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
Of PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE)
> Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 8:26 AM
> To: Greg Bernstein; ccamp@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version
Notificationfordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt
>
> Hi Greg,
>
> I clearly get your will of understanding how the evaluation in section
5 was conducted, and
> I've noticed you were concerned by 2 points:
>   - 1 the node model and node diagram. The way we have conducted the
study, we refered to generic types of nodes (independant of the node
internal structure), as we wanted the study not to be specific to a
given product or architecture. Basically we have taken values for the
items that are modeled by the information model. Though, for each case,
we can provide multiple architectures (then diagrams) which would
provide the same hypothesis. Our text in section 5.2 is certainly
perfectible, hence if when reading it some points are either unclear or
lacking to help the reader understand, please let us know which ones.
Section 5.2 is quoted below.
>   - 2 the encodings as used for current drafts. I have to say I fail
in understanding what you mean there. The encodings are provided in the
drafts, we have used the drafts indications to determine those, as you
are the editor of this draft, I would guess you would know how to
determine those. Apart from tiny details, there is no much degree of
freedom  in the way of encoding a given structure (which is to be hoped
for in the frame of standardized protocol extensions). Can you help me
then understand your point ?
>
>    o  Node Degree Connectivity: 4, 8 and 16.
>
>    o  WDM capacity: 100 wavelengths.
>
>    o  Switching capacity.  Defines the total node switching capability
>       and is calculated as Node Degree Connectivity x 100 wavelengths.
>
>    o  Regeneration Capability.  We assume a value of 5% of the total
>       switching capacity.
>
>    o  Add/Drop Capability.  We assume a typical value of 25% of the
>       switching capability.  So in the average up to 30 wavelengths per
>       incoming fiber can be added/dropped within the optical node.
>
>    o  Resource pool setup and capabilities.  A physical resource pool
>       contains a mix of Add/Drop and Regeneration capabilities.  This
>       has the effect of increasing the number of resource pool
>       advertized.  Resource pool can be fully flexible (connected to any
>       port), partial (only to some port) or Fixed (can only be connected
>       to one direction).  This parameter influences the complexity of
>       the connectivity matrix.
>
>    o  Number of Regenerator types.  For a given node the number of OEO
>       capabilities is limited, it is typically decided by the type of
>       electrical equipment and optical modules (emitting laser and
>       optical receiver).
>
>    o  Blocking Ratio.  The Spatial/Spectral blocking ratio indicates how
>       much port-based/wavelength based blocking a node is experiencing.
>
>    For example considering the typical design it results in the
>    following static layout:
>
>    o  3 OEO pools each having 3 Resource Block inside.
>
>    o  Connectivity Matrix: (8+30+30) 64x64 if considering one
>       connectivity matrix.  Ingress=64x3, Egress=3x64 (considering the
>       OEO access with a multiple-wavelength link).
>
>    The following types of nodes and node designs were considered in this
>    evaluation:
>
>                           Node Types and designs
>
>                  Node Type       Nodal Degree Pool Type Blocking
>             Small(S), Flexible         4       Partial    None
>            Small(S), Fixed(port)       4        Fixed     Port
>           Small(S), Fixed(label)       4       Partial   Lambda
>             Middle(M), Flexible        8       Flexible   None
>             Large(L), Flexible        16       Flexible   None
>
>    For the small nodes, 5 different type of regenerators are considered,
>    for the Middle and Large ones 10 different type of regenerators are
>    considered.  Based on those designs we derived the following
>    important figures:
>
>    o  Number of resourcePool : depends on the pool type and
>       connectivity, which depend on the port blocking and number of Add/
>       Drop and Regenerator capacity.
>
>    o  Number of resourceBlock.  There is two numbers to be considered
>       here : the number of resourceBlock for a given resource pool (this
>       document) and total number of resourceBlock
>       ([I-D.ietf-ccamp-rwa-info]).  In this document the number of
>       resource block within a resource pool is, worst case, the number
>       of possible regenerator types, whereas in
>       [I-D.ietf-ccamp-rwa-info] the number of resource block depends on
>       the number of OEO types and on the connectivity.
>
>    o  Number of connectivity matrix/number of pairs/link per pairs.  The
>       number of sub-matrix increase depending on the port blocking
>       ratio, the number of pair in one connectivity matrix depends on
>       the wavelength restrictions.  Those two criteria do not depend on
>       which information model is considered.  The number of link per set
>       is increased by the number of resource pool in this draft.
>
>    Those numbers for each node are shown in the following table
> (corrected the number of pools)
>
>                 Details of information elements per node
>
>         Node Type    Resource Pools Resource Blocks Matrix/Pair/Links
>        S, Flexible          6            5 (30)       1/1/10 (1/1/1)
>       S, Fixed(port)       12            5 (60)       4/4/4 (4/4/1)
>      S, Fixed(label)        6            5 (30)       4/1/10 (4/1/1)
>        M, Flexible          3           10 (30)       1/1/11 (1/1/1)
>        L, Flexible          5           10 (50)       1/1/21 (1/1/1)
>
>        Nota: Values for [I-D.ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode] are between
>                                  brackets
>
>  As the preceding table may be uneasy to read, here is an alternative one:
>
>                  Details of information elements per node
>
>                         #Device            #ResProp
>    Node Type    #Pools   Type    #Blocks     TLV     Matrix/Pair/Links
>   S, Flexible      6       5       30       5 (25)     1/1/10 (1/1/1)
>  S, Fixed(port)   12       5       60       5 (45)     4/4/4  (4/4/1)
> S, Fixed(label)    6       5       30       5 (25)     4/1/10 (4/1/1)
>   M, Flexible      3      10       30      10 (30)     1/1/11 (1/1/1)
>   L, Flexible      5      10       50      10 (40)     1/1/21 (1/1/1)
>
>        Nota: Values for [I-D.ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode] are between
>                                  brackets
>
> Regards,
>
> Pierre
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] De la part
de Greg Bernstein
> Envoyé : vendredi 17 juin 2011 19:53
> À : ccamp@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [CCAMP] TR: New Version
Notificationfordraft-peloso-ccamp-wson-ospf-oeo-03.txt
>
> This issue can be readily resolved if the  diagrams and current WG
draft sub-TLV encoding use in sections 5.2 and 5.3 of peloso-3 is given.
> There are four authors of this document, hence somebody must have a
diagram of the switch and sub-TLV encodings that generated the numbers
used in the evaluation. If you can furnish that then I will show either
> (a) That the system of interest can be efficiently encoded with the
current WG drafts and current GMPLS/OSPF mechanisms.
> or
> (b) That a minimalistic extension to the WSON encoding draft along
with current GMPLS/OSPF extensions can be used to efficiently encode
this system.
>
> Note that the purpose of this exercise is to solve a potential problem
with the WSON WG drafts and if enough folks are concerned about a
potential problem we can figure out how to solve it.  The purpose is not
a general re-write of these drafts. Note that during the development of
the WSON WG drafts we shared all our test cases freely via my website,
informal presentations at previous IETF meetings, and in papers
published in journals. I don't seen any reason for the authors of
> peloso-3 to keep their test cases secret when asking for changes to
CCAMP WG drafts to accommodate it.
>
> Greg
>
> On 6/17/2011 9:20 AM, Julien Meuric wrote:
>> Hi Young.
>>
>> You are right on one thing: operators try to minimize costs. This is
>> exactly why ROADMs are first deployed with 10 Gb/s wavelengths, 40
>> Gb/s when transponders become cost-efficient enough, and then 100
>> Gb/s, which will likely become cost-efficient later... Obviously,
>> minimizing cost mean deploying over existing things, not replacing;
>> therefore we end up with many types of regenerators, due to the
>> various bit-rates and modulation format existing out there.
>>
>> I personally believe that a few-year-old long haul network will end up
>> beyond Cyril's "reasonable figures" quite easily.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Julien
>>
>>
>> Le 17/06/2011 17:55, Leeyoung a écrit :
>>>
>>>  Cyril,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  I think your example is a corner case, which is not typical case. We
>>> should not base this kind of highly theoretical corner case as the
>>> base case for your analysis. We are dealing with WSON switching
>>> enabled ROADM networks, not necessarily dealing with legacy DWDM
>>> system. Please also note that the typical WSON switching nodes are
>>> transparent nodes. Only some of the nodes may have Regen elements
>>> ---as I mentioned in the previous email, the operators try to
>>> minimize the use of Regen's due to its high cost.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Please see my other comment in-line.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Thanks.
>>>
>>>  Young
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  -------------------------
>>>
>>>  *From:*Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich)
>>> [mailto:cyril.margaria@nsn.com] **
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Hi Young Lee, Ccamper's,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Reducing the type of regenerator makes sense but mixing regenerator
>>> type makes also sense, as you would try to avoid having only
>>> 40G-capable 3R when you can go for a cheaper 10G regenerator,
>>> depending on your demands.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  In Greenfield deployments single rate makes sense, in an existing
>>> networks having multi-rate (2) support with different electrical
>>> module may be less common but should still be supported.
>>>
>>>  This kind of network would need 6 description for the processing
>>> capability alone. The total number of resource description need to
>>> be higher, as in the info model the description of a regenerator
>>> include the number of resource. Each time the connectivity imply a
>>> different number of regenerator are grouped together a separate
>>> ResourceBlockInfo should be used (Separating connectivity and
>>> regenerator setup would help here).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  *YOUNG>> Your point on "separating connectivity and regenerator
>>> setup  would help here" is exactly the encoding principles of the
>>> current WG  adopted encoding drafts. Then I don't clearly understand
>>> what the  Pierre's draft are trying to do. *
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Best case would see indeed 0-2 type of regenerator, intermediate
>>> actual deployments can see 6 types of regenerator, we also considered
>>> looking at possible evolutions, 10 being in our opinion a reasonable
>>> number.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  I hope it could help you understand better what is considered in the
>>> draft. Those consideration will be more detailed in the next revision
>>> of the draft.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Best Regards
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  *From:*ext Leeyoung [mailto:leeyoung@huawei.com] **
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Hi Cyril,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  I think your analysis below is very theoretical and a bit out of
>>> reality in WSON node configuration.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  We are dealing with wavelength level so that OTUk level is
>>> transparent to WSON. In typical optical switch node configuration in
>>> WSON, we don't simply mix up all possible kinds of regenerators per
>>> each modulation type. It is true that we have many modulation types
>>> for each rate and the model should support all possibility. But this
>>> does not mean we have all "10 types" at the same time in a node
>>> design. As you know, regenerator is one of the most expensive WSON
>>> elements and having many types in a node is not economical and not
>>> realistic.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  As far as my understanding of node design, we don't have such thing
>>> as you said in your email to support 10+ different types of
>>> regenerators in a node. In a typical commercially deployed WSON
>>> switching node, we have one rate (e.g., 10G or 40G, or possibly
>>>  others) and one regenerator type for each rate. If we have
>>> multi-rate  support, we may have two rates and thus two regenerators
>>> in a typical  WSON switching node.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  I would be interested in the node design diagram that supports 10+
>>> different regenerators at the same time. I haven't seen such one
>>> myself yet.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Please also note that the WSON model has to support transparent node
>>> configuration, which we don't have "regen" element.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Best Regards,
>>>
>>>  Young
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  -------------------------
>>>
>>>  *From:*ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] *On
>>> Behalf Of *Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich) **
>>>
>>>  Hi Greg, CCAMPers,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Regarding point (2), using one regen type per OTUk (k in [[1..4]]),
>>> and 2 type of laser module per reach makes already 8 type of oeo
>>> properties. Adding slightly different hw types (i.e old board with
>>> old modulation and a more recent with DP-QPSK) makes an easy 10 types
>>> for a big node.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Without going into product families this sounded reasonable (for
>>> instance a typical product would indicate supports for 10 and 40g
>>> with different modulation, so lets say 2 sub-board type, which makes
>>>  6 regen type); The introduction of OTU4 and later OTU5 will increase
>>> the types of regenerator supported.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  The size expansion is indeed related to the number of regenerator
>>> type, resource blocks contain connectivity, oeo-feature and how the
>>> blocks are grouped.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  The other point would indeed clarify the document, the setup of
>>> resource pools/blocks is shown in Figure 1, a resource pool
>>> aggregating the connectivity for several resource blocks.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Best regards.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  *From:*ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] *On
>>> Behalf Of *ext Greg Bernstein **
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Hi Pierre and draft authors, can you provide: (1) Diagrams of the
>>> example switches particularly with respect to the structure of the
>>> resource pools/blocks. (2) Explanation of why so many different types
>>> (not number) of regenerators in an optical node. You site 5 different
>>> types for a small node and 10 for a large node. Can you point to a
>>> product family? I would think 0-1 types of regenerators for a small
>>> node and at maybe 2 for a large node or nodes that deal with long
>>> haul and metro types modulations. (3) Can you provide the example
>>> encodings such as done in the appendix of the encoding document so we
>>> can understand where the expansion is taking place.
>>>
>>>  It seems that the size expansions is directly related to the number
>>> of regenerator types, but hard to tell from this document. Are there
>>> any other WSON interested parties that have a need for so many
>>> regenerator types?
>>>
>>>  Cheers
>>>
>>>  Greg B.
>>>
>>>  On 6/10/2011 7:19 AM, PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) wrote:
>>>
>>>  Hi Ccampers,
>>>
>>>  During Prague meeting I was asked to provide a draft detailing the
>>> solution we were presenting then concerning OSPF-TE extensions for
>>> Wavelength Switched Optical Networks (see point 10 of ccamp
>>> minutes). Julien, Giovanni, Cyril and I have tackled this work of
>>> providing a complete description of the solution with commonalities
>>> and deltas from the existing solution held in the following drafts: -
>>>  draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-11 -
>>>  draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-04 -
>>> draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-00 -
>>>  draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-11 -
>>>  draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-04
>>>
>>>  Feedback from the working group is welcome.
>>>
>>>  To trigger this feedback, this draft holds inside section 5 a
>>> numerical study on the amount of static and dynamic information to be
>>> flooded. This study was conducted on various typical WSON nodes and
>>> compares the size of the LSAs between the two solutions.
>>>
>>>  Regards,
>>>
>>>  - Pierre
>>>
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________ CCAMP mailing list
>>> CCAMP@ietf.org <mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  -- =================================================== Dr Greg
>>> Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________ CCAMP mailing list
>>> CCAMP@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> ===================================================
> Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>
>
>
>

From IBryskin@advaoptical.com  Tue Jun 28 09:24:02 2011
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To: "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>, John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
Thread-Topic: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Hi Pietro,

You may not like John's tone, but emotions aside, what he keeps saying repe=
atedly in this discussion does make perfect sense to me.
1) The point of CP signaling is to convey information pertinent to network =
element provisioning in most efficient way. It does seem stupid to signal n=
umerous one hop hierarchical LSPs (when it is sufficient a single end-to-en=
d round of signaling to do the job), create and support numerous extra CP s=
tates, take care of all restart implications, etc. just to be consistent wi=
th RFC_XYZ written 10 years ago;
2) Besides, you can think of multi-stage label as identification of a new t=
ype of network resources controlled by GMPLS. Even the GMPLS god-fathers wo=
uld agree that they never meant to limit GMPLS to control the resources des=
cribed in early CCAMP RFCs.
3) Finally, no one ever said that you cannot orchestrate multi-stage provis=
ioning through the hierarchy of LSPs if you choose to do so.

Cheers,
Igor

-----Original Message-----
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of G=
RANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 10:43 AM
To: John E Drake
Cc: CCAMP
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

Hello John,

1) You have forwarded to the CCamp mailing list a number of private mails w=
ithout asking the permission to the involved people. This is impolite and u=
nprofessional.

2) You are creating spam on the mailing list forwarding four threads that a=
re each hundreds of lines long and very complicated to follow for people no=
t involved in the discussion since the beginning. Moreover, this happened a=
fter a discussion from scratch was already started in the mailing list.

3) You moved from a technical discussion to arrogant and deliberate persona=
l offenses not supported by any sound technical motivation as reported in y=
our mails and snipped below:

"This shows a complete lack of understanding of hierarchical LSP, multi-sta=
ge labels, and GMPLS in general.  It is so bad it is not even wrong."

" It might be more precise to say I reviewed your slides and found them, sh=
all we say, lacking."

We hope that from now on the discussion can be continued from a purely tech=
nical point of view.

Pietro, Sergio and Daniele

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Pietro Vittorio Grandi
Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
Tel: +39 039 686 4930
Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute. That's rel=
ativity.
(A. Einstein)

-----Original Message-----
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of J=
ohn E Drake
Sent: marted=EC 28 giugno 2011 14.13
To: CCAMP
Subject: [CCAMP] FW: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage



Sent from my iPhone


-----Original Message-----
From: John E Drake
Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 3:56 PM
To: 'Fatai Zhang'; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan Hardwick=
; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; St=
eve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); =
Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli
Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

Fatai,

Comments inline.

Thanks,

John

Sent from my iPhone


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fatai Zhang [mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com]
> Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 9:45 AM
> To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); John E Drake
> Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan
> Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -
> Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham; BELOTTI,
> SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli
> Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
> Hi John,
>
> I guess that you did not review our slides carefully.

JD:  I will let this pass.

>
> You just see the only advantage for the corner case (i.e., establish
> multi-layers LSP concurrently), but you did not see the issues that we
> described in the slides and the issues that Jonathan mentioned (eg.,
> OAM/protection issues).

JD:  I'm sorry that I didn't provide enough context.  I don't think the one=
-hop hierarchical LSP case, w/ or w/o multi-stage labels is either interest=
ing or common and it was not the case to which I was addressing my comments=
.  Rather, I was describing two ways of establishing multi-hop multi-stage =
hierarchical LSPs.  As far as I can tell the issues Jonathan raised in this=
 context are red herrings rather than blue whales.  Furthermore, regardless=
 of which of the two approaches I described is used, the issues, if any, wo=
uld be exactly the same.

>
> In addition, we have repeated many times that LSP hierarchy must be
> used in many cases, even though we have multi-stage label approach.
> E.g., an ODU0 connection request from A to E through B, C and D, but B,
> C and  D (or one of them ) can not support ODU0 switching, the HO ODUj
> (ODU1 or ODU2 or ODU3 or ODU4) LSP must be created between B and D
> through LSP hierarchy. This example is very simple and there are lots
> of transforms for this example to use LSP hierarchy.

JD:  Please see above.  I completely agree with you and was simply pointing=
 out that multi-stage labels can be used to improve wrt latency and control=
 plane overhead, the establishment of ODUj LSPs within multi-stage hierarch=
ical LSPs.

>
>
>
>
> Fatai
>
> Thanks
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John E Drake" <jdrake@juniper.net>
> To: "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)"
> <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> Cc: "Daniele Ceccarelli" <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>; "Rajan Rao"
> <rrao@infinera.com>; "Fatai Zhang" <zhangfatai@huawei.com>; "Khuzema
> Pithewan" <kpithewan@infinera.com>; "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)"
> <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>; "Ashok Kunjidhapatham"
> <akunjidhapatham@infinera.com>; "Diego Caviglia"
> <diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>; "Steve Balls"
> <Steve.Balls@metaswitch.com>; "Ciena - Lyndon Ong" <LyOng@Ciena.com>;
> <fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; "NSN - Cyril Margaria" <cyril.margaria@nsn.com>;
> "Li Dan" <huawei.danli@huawei.com>; "Jonathan Hardwick"
> <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>; "Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler"
> <jonathan.sadler@tellabs.com>; "Vallinayakam Somasundaram"
> <valli@juniper.net>
> Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 7:21 PM
> Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
>
> Pietro,
>
> If we are talking about the establishment of LSPs using single-stage
> muxing, I think the only thing necessary is a new label format, which I
> believe is a bit map of tributary slots; i.e., LSP establishment using
> single-stage muxing is done.
>
> We have never had a situation such as multi-stage muxing before so we
> are breaking new ground and we have two choices, either use LSP
> hierarchy to establish multiple single-stage sub-layer LSPs explicitly
> and sequentially, or include the sub-layer information within the Path
> message for the ODUj such that the sub-layers are established
> implicitly and concurrently with the establishment of the ODUj.
>
> Either will work, but it seems to me that the latter is more efficient
> wrt latency and control plane overhead.  The one thing I do not want to
> do is to say that both are supported.  If we can agree that we will
> only use one method to establish multi-stage LSPs, then when a node
> advertises multi-stage support in routing, we know how signaling is to
> be accomplished.
>
> Thanks,
>
> John
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 1:31 AM
> > To: John E Drake
> > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia; Steve
> > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril Margaria;
> > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam
> > Somasundaram; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > John,
> >
> > It seems as though you consider on the same level something (H-LSP
> > concept) already used in CP managing multi-layer with something that
> > does not exist at all.
> > Operators are used to managed their CP network together with NMS.
> > Most of the NMS work per-layer. The utilization of a multi-stage
> label
> > would force NMS to work in another manner with heavy implementation
> > consequences.
> >
> > We should also keep in mind that multi-stage label approach can only
> be
> > used in some cases (not for all the one-hop multi-stage muxing) and
> it
> > will bring some management issues. Please see the slides that Fatai
> > sent a few days ago.
> >
> > For both these reasons the "optional" condition of multi-stage label
> > concept is absolutely mandatory for us.
> >
> > Pietro, Sergio, Fatai & Daniele
> >
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> > Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> > Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
> > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.
> That's
> > relativity.
> > (A. Einstein)
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > Sent: sabato 18 giugno 2011 2.40
> > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia; Steve
> > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril Margaria;
> > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam
> > Somasundaram
> > Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > Pietro,
> >
> > We can certainly say that a node that advertises multistage switching
> > support in routing MUST support multistage signaling.
> >
> > As I said before, using mutiple RSVP exchanges between the same LSP
> > endpoints to establish intermediate switching stages seems ill-
> > considered and forcing everyone to support two ways of signaling
> > multistage LSPs seems like a really Bad Idea.
> >
> > John
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Jun 17, 2011, at 2:55 AM, "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO
> > VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-
> > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Hello John,
> >
> > I understand that you think that the new switching type in routing
> > should also convey implicitly the information that a
> > multi-stage label is supported.
> >
> > I do not agree with this statement.
> > Implementations using H-LSPs plus single stage labels are possible
> (and
> > already standard) and the fact the a node supports
> > the new switching type is not enough to clearly tell what is
> supported.
> >
> > Pietro
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > Sent: venerd=EC 17 giugno 2011 2.09
> > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); Daniele Ceccarelli;
> > Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO);
> > Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon
> > Ong'; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> Sadler';
> > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > Pietro,
> >
> > Actually we are already covered.   Our advertisements use a different
> > switching type, which is also carried in signaling.  This means that
> we
> > get to define the signaling used for this switching type, and I am
> > proposing that we use multistage.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > John
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 6:52 AM
> > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema
> > Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego
> > Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> Sadler';
> > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I  agree with Daniele' statement.
> >
> > in my mind this means that single stage label support is implicit and
> > that
> > multi-stage labels should not be used unless a machine explicitly
> > declares the support.
> >
> > Pietro
> >
> >
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> > Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> > Mail: <mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-
> > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
> > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.
> That's
> > relativity.
> > (A. Einstein)
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]
> > Sent: gioved=EC 16 giugno 2011 15.48
> > To: John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan; BELOTTI,
> > SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO
> (PIETRO
> > VITTORIO); Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> Sadler';
> > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > Subject: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > Starting a new thread as we're now moving to signaling...
> >
> > Assuming we still have not decided whether we're going to support
> > single stage only, multi stage only or both of them i believe that as
> > per OSPF we need to consider backward compatibility.
> >
> > An implementation RFC4328 based (that we've explicitly been told not
> to
> > deprecate) is single stage based, so in case of multi stage only or
> > multi-stage + single stage we should be able to cover backward
> > compatibility issues somehow.
> >
> > BR
> > Daniele
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > Sent: gioved=EC 16 giugno 2011 8.53
> > To: Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham
> > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;
> 'Steve
> > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> Sadler';
> > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for multi-
> > stage Vs Single Stage labels)
> > Rajan,
> >
> > I didn't want to allow interoperability options.  I much preferred to
> > say that we do signaling in one way only, using multistage labels.
> > These are also needed for signaling within  hierarchical LSPs.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > John
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > From: Rajan Rao [mailto:rrao@infinera.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 10:46 PM
> > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; John E Drake; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham
> > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;
> 'Steve
> > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> Sadler';
> > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for multi-
> > stage Vs Single Stage labels)
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > While we are making updates, let us discuss support required in link
> > advertisement for single/multi-stage label options:
> >
> > Given that there is interest in both multi-stage label and single-
> stage
> > with H-LSPs, we should consider inclusion of a FLAG to indicate what
> > the link is capable of.  This will address some of the issues we have
> > discussed in the past relating to path computation involving NEs with
> > different capabilities (inter-op).
> >
> > Thanks
> > Rajan
_______________________________________________
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_______________________________________________
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From jdrake@juniper.net  Tue Jun 28 15:13:44 2011
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>, "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 15:12:27 -0700
Thread-Topic: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Igor,

I have a few clarifications.

1)  Multi-stage labels apply equally well to multi-hop hierarchical LSPs. (=
The is the point some people do not seem to understand.)

2)  It is incorrect to say that LSP hierarchy, as is, just works for the es=
tablishment of a hierarchical LSP that supports multi-stage switching.  Thi=
s involves a nested set of hierarchical LSPs, the containing hierarchical L=
SP and the set of sub-layer LSPs which provide context for intermediate sta=
ge labels, between the same two endpoints.  This is a new construct and the=
re are almost certainly details to be worked out.

3)  I don't think we should standardize both approaches.  I would prefer th=
at the working group pick one to standardize.

Thanks,

John

Sent from my iPhone


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 9:24 AM
> To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); John E Drake
> Cc: CCAMP
> Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
> Hi Pietro,
>
> You may not like John's tone, but emotions aside, what he keeps saying
> repeatedly in this discussion does make perfect sense to me.
> 1) The point of CP signaling is to convey information pertinent to
> network element provisioning in most efficient way. It does seem stupid
> to signal numerous one hop hierarchical LSPs (when it is sufficient a
> single end-to-end round of signaling to do the job), create and support
> numerous extra CP states, take care of all restart implications, etc.
> just to be consistent with RFC_XYZ written 10 years ago;
> 2) Besides, you can think of multi-stage label as identification of a
> new type of network resources controlled by GMPLS. Even the GMPLS god-
> fathers would agree that they never meant to limit GMPLS to control the
> resources described in early CCAMP RFCs.
> 3) Finally, no one ever said that you cannot orchestrate multi-stage
> provisioning through the hierarchy of LSPs if you choose to do so.
>
> Cheers,
> Igor
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 10:43 AM
> To: John E Drake
> Cc: CCAMP
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
> Hello John,
>
> 1) You have forwarded to the CCamp mailing list a number of private
> mails without asking the permission to the involved people. This is
> impolite and unprofessional.
>
> 2) You are creating spam on the mailing list forwarding four threads
> that are each hundreds of lines long and very complicated to follow for
> people not involved in the discussion since the beginning. Moreover,
> this happened after a discussion from scratch was already started in
> the mailing list.
>
> 3) You moved from a technical discussion to arrogant and deliberate
> personal offenses not supported by any sound technical motivation as
> reported in your mails and snipped below:
>
> "This shows a complete lack of understanding of hierarchical LSP,
> multi-stage labels, and GMPLS in general.  It is so bad it is not even
> wrong."
>
> " It might be more precise to say I reviewed your slides and found
> them, shall we say, lacking."
>
> We hope that from now on the discussion can be continued from a purely
> technical point of view.
>
> Pietro, Sergio and Daniele
>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
> Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute. That's
> relativity.
> (A. Einstein)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of John E Drake
> Sent: marted=EC 28 giugno 2011 14.13
> To: CCAMP
> Subject: [CCAMP] FW: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John E Drake
> Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 3:56 PM
> To: 'Fatai Zhang'; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan
> Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -
> Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham; BELOTTI,
> SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli
> Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
> Fatai,
>
> Comments inline.
>
> Thanks,
>
> John
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Fatai Zhang [mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 9:45 AM
> > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); John E Drake
> > Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan
> > Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -
> > Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham;
> BELOTTI,
> > SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli
> > Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > Hi John,
> >
> > I guess that you did not review our slides carefully.
>
> JD:  I will let this pass.
>
> >
> > You just see the only advantage for the corner case (i.e., establish
> > multi-layers LSP concurrently), but you did not see the issues that
> we
> > described in the slides and the issues that Jonathan mentioned (eg.,
> > OAM/protection issues).
>
> JD:  I'm sorry that I didn't provide enough context.  I don't think the
> one-hop hierarchical LSP case, w/ or w/o multi-stage labels is either
> interesting or common and it was not the case to which I was addressing
> my comments.  Rather, I was describing two ways of establishing multi-
> hop multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.  As far as I can tell the issues
> Jonathan raised in this context are red herrings rather than blue
> whales.  Furthermore, regardless of which of the two approaches I
> described is used, the issues, if any, would be exactly the same.
>
> >
> > In addition, we have repeated many times that LSP hierarchy must be
> > used in many cases, even though we have multi-stage label approach.
> > E.g., an ODU0 connection request from A to E through B, C and D, but
> B,
> > C and  D (or one of them ) can not support ODU0 switching, the HO
> ODUj
> > (ODU1 or ODU2 or ODU3 or ODU4) LSP must be created between B and D
> > through LSP hierarchy. This example is very simple and there are lots
> > of transforms for this example to use LSP hierarchy.
>
> JD:  Please see above.  I completely agree with you and was simply
> pointing out that multi-stage labels can be used to improve wrt latency
> and control plane overhead, the establishment of ODUj LSPs within
> multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Fatai
> >
> > Thanks
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John E Drake" <jdrake@juniper.net>
> > To: "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)"
> > <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > Cc: "Daniele Ceccarelli" <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>; "Rajan
> Rao"
> > <rrao@infinera.com>; "Fatai Zhang" <zhangfatai@huawei.com>; "Khuzema
> > Pithewan" <kpithewan@infinera.com>; "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)"
> > <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>; "Ashok Kunjidhapatham"
> > <akunjidhapatham@infinera.com>; "Diego Caviglia"
> > <diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>; "Steve Balls"
> > <Steve.Balls@metaswitch.com>; "Ciena - Lyndon Ong" <LyOng@Ciena.com>;
> > <fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; "NSN - Cyril Margaria"
> <cyril.margaria@nsn.com>;
> > "Li Dan" <huawei.danli@huawei.com>; "Jonathan Hardwick"
> > <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>; "Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler"
> > <jonathan.sadler@tellabs.com>; "Vallinayakam Somasundaram"
> > <valli@juniper.net>
> > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 7:21 PM
> > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> >
> > Pietro,
> >
> > If we are talking about the establishment of LSPs using single-stage
> > muxing, I think the only thing necessary is a new label format, which
> I
> > believe is a bit map of tributary slots; i.e., LSP establishment
> using
> > single-stage muxing is done.
> >
> > We have never had a situation such as multi-stage muxing before so we
> > are breaking new ground and we have two choices, either use LSP
> > hierarchy to establish multiple single-stage sub-layer LSPs
> explicitly
> > and sequentially, or include the sub-layer information within the
> Path
> > message for the ODUj such that the sub-layers are established
> > implicitly and concurrently with the establishment of the ODUj.
> >
> > Either will work, but it seems to me that the latter is more
> efficient
> > wrt latency and control plane overhead.  The one thing I do not want
> to
> > do is to say that both are supported.  If we can agree that we will
> > only use one method to establish multi-stage LSPs, then when a node
> > advertises multi-stage support in routing, we know how signaling is
> to
> > be accomplished.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > John
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 1:31 AM
> > > To: John E Drake
> > > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;
> Steve
> > > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril
> Margaria;
> > > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam
> > > Somasundaram; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > John,
> > >
> > > It seems as though you consider on the same level something (H-LSP
> > > concept) already used in CP managing multi-layer with something
> that
> > > does not exist at all.
> > > Operators are used to managed their CP network together with NMS.
> > > Most of the NMS work per-layer. The utilization of a multi-stage
> > label
> > > would force NMS to work in another manner with heavy implementation
> > > consequences.
> > >
> > > We should also keep in mind that multi-stage label approach can
> only
> > be
> > > used in some cases (not for all the one-hop multi-stage muxing) and
> > it
> > > will bring some management issues. Please see the slides that Fatai
> > > sent a few days ago.
> > >
> > > For both these reasons the "optional" condition of multi-stage
> label
> > > concept is absolutely mandatory for us.
> > >
> > > Pietro, Sergio, Fatai & Daniele
> > >
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> > > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> > > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> > > Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> > > Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an
> hour.
> > > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.
> > That's
> > > relativity.
> > > (A. Einstein)
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > > Sent: sabato 18 giugno 2011 2.40
> > > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;
> Steve
> > > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril
> Margaria;
> > > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam
> > > Somasundaram
> > > Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Pietro,
> > >
> > > We can certainly say that a node that advertises multistage
> switching
> > > support in routing MUST support multistage signaling.
> > >
> > > As I said before, using mutiple RSVP exchanges between the same LSP
> > > endpoints to establish intermediate switching stages seems ill-
> > > considered and forcing everyone to support two ways of signaling
> > > multistage LSPs seems like a really Bad Idea.
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > On Jun 17, 2011, at 2:55 AM, "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO
> > > VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-
> > > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello John,
> > >
> > > I understand that you think that the new switching type in routing
> > > should also convey implicitly the information that a
> > > multi-stage label is supported.
> > >
> > > I do not agree with this statement.
> > > Implementations using H-LSPs plus single stage labels are possible
> > (and
> > > already standard) and the fact the a node supports
> > > the new switching type is not enough to clearly tell what is
> > supported.
> > >
> > > Pietro
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > > Sent: venerd=EC 17 giugno 2011 2.09
> > > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); Daniele Ceccarelli;
> > > Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO);
> > > Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena -
> Lyndon
> > > Ong'; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Pietro,
> > >
> > > Actually we are already covered.   Our advertisements use a
> different
> > > switching type, which is also carried in signaling.  This means
> that
> > we
> > > get to define the signaling used for this switching type, and I am
> > > proposing that we use multistage.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 6:52 AM
> > > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang;
> Khuzema
> > > Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego
> > > Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I  agree with Daniele' statement.
> > >
> > > in my mind this means that single stage label support is implicit
> and
> > > that
> > > multi-stage labels should not be used unless a machine explicitly
> > > declares the support.
> > >
> > > Pietro
> > >
> > >
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> > > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> > > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> > > Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> > > Mail: <mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > > pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-
> > > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an
> hour.
> > > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.
> > That's
> > > relativity.
> > > (A. Einstein)
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]
> > > Sent: gioved=EC 16 giugno 2011 15.48
> > > To: John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> BELOTTI,
> > > SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO
> > (PIETRO
> > > VITTORIO); Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Starting a new thread as we're now moving to signaling...
> > >
> > > Assuming we still have not decided whether we're going to support
> > > single stage only, multi stage only or both of them i believe that
> as
> > > per OSPF we need to consider backward compatibility.
> > >
> > > An implementation RFC4328 based (that we've explicitly been told
> not
> > to
> > > deprecate) is single stage based, so in case of multi stage only or
> > > multi-stage + single stage we should be able to cover backward
> > > compatibility issues somehow.
> > >
> > > BR
> > > Daniele
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > > Sent: gioved=EC 16 giugno 2011 8.53
> > > To: Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham
> > > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;
> > 'Steve
> > > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for
> multi-
> > > stage Vs Single Stage labels)
> > > Rajan,
> > >
> > > I didn't want to allow interoperability options.  I much preferred
> to
> > > say that we do signaling in one way only, using multistage labels.
> > > These are also needed for signaling within  hierarchical LSPs.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > From: Rajan Rao [mailto:rrao@infinera.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 10:46 PM
> > > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; John E Drake; Khuzema
> Pithewan;
> > > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham
> > > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;
> > 'Steve
> > > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for
> multi-
> > > stage Vs Single Stage labels)
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > While we are making updates, let us discuss support required in
> link
> > > advertisement for single/multi-stage label options:
> > >
> > > Given that there is interest in both multi-stage label and single-
> > stage
> > > with H-LSPs, we should consider inclusion of a FLAG to indicate
> what
> > > the link is capable of.  This will address some of the issues we
> have
> > > discussed in the past relating to path computation involving NEs
> with
> > > different capabilities (inter-op).
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Rajan
> _______________________________________________
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> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

From jdrake@juniper.net  Tue Jun 28 15:29:28 2011
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 15:24:59 -0700
Thread-Topic: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Pietro,

Although I don't recall your appointment as list moderator, my apologies.

Forwarding the individual emails rather than synthesizing their contents wa=
s strictly an expedient but given that the private mailing list is a close =
approximation of the list of subscribers to the CCAMP mailing list, I didn'=
t see the harm.

On the other topic, my emails to Fatai were preceded by the following from =
him:

"Hi John,

You did not review our slides, so we think that you did not understand the =
spirit of multi-stage label approach correctly.

Thanks

Fatai"

This email is implicitly from you as well, and if you look up 'arrogance' i=
n the dictionary, you might see this note.

Thanks,

John

Sent from my iPhone


> -----Original Message-----
> From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 7:43 AM
> To: John E Drake
> Cc: CCAMP; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Daniele Ceccarelli; GRANDI, PIETRO
> VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
> Hello John,
>
> 1) You have forwarded to the CCamp mailing list a number of private
> mails without asking the permission to the involved people. This is
> impolite and unprofessional.
>
> 2) You are creating spam on the mailing list forwarding four threads
> that are each hundreds of lines long and very complicated to follow for
> people not involved in the discussion since the beginning. Moreover,
> this happened after a discussion from scratch was already started in
> the mailing list.
>
> 3) You moved from a technical discussion to arrogant and deliberate
> personal offenses not supported by any sound technical motivation as
> reported in your mails and snipped below:
>
> "This shows a complete lack of understanding of hierarchical LSP,
> multi-stage labels, and GMPLS in general.  It is so bad it is not even
> wrong."
>
> " It might be more precise to say I reviewed your slides and found
> them, shall we say, lacking."
>
> We hope that from now on the discussion can be continued from a purely
> technical point of view.
>
> Pietro, Sergio and Daniele
>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
> Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute. That's
> relativity.
> (A. Einstein)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of John E Drake
> Sent: marted=EC 28 giugno 2011 14.13
> To: CCAMP
> Subject: [CCAMP] FW: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John E Drake
> Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 3:56 PM
> To: 'Fatai Zhang'; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan
> Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -
> Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham; BELOTTI,
> SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli
> Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
> Fatai,
>
> Comments inline.
>
> Thanks,
>
> John
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Fatai Zhang [mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 9:45 AM
> > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); John E Drake
> > Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan
> > Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -
> > Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham;
> BELOTTI,
> > SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli
> > Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > Hi John,
> >
> > I guess that you did not review our slides carefully.
>
> JD:  I will let this pass.
>
> >
> > You just see the only advantage for the corner case (i.e., establish
> > multi-layers LSP concurrently), but you did not see the issues that
> we
> > described in the slides and the issues that Jonathan mentioned (eg.,
> > OAM/protection issues).
>
> JD:  I'm sorry that I didn't provide enough context.  I don't think the
> one-hop hierarchical LSP case, w/ or w/o multi-stage labels is either
> interesting or common and it was not the case to which I was addressing
> my comments.  Rather, I was describing two ways of establishing multi-
> hop multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.  As far as I can tell the issues
> Jonathan raised in this context are red herrings rather than blue
> whales.  Furthermore, regardless of which of the two approaches I
> described is used, the issues, if any, would be exactly the same.
>
> >
> > In addition, we have repeated many times that LSP hierarchy must be
> > used in many cases, even though we have multi-stage label approach.
> > E.g., an ODU0 connection request from A to E through B, C and D, but
> B,
> > C and  D (or one of them ) can not support ODU0 switching, the HO
> ODUj
> > (ODU1 or ODU2 or ODU3 or ODU4) LSP must be created between B and D
> > through LSP hierarchy. This example is very simple and there are lots
> > of transforms for this example to use LSP hierarchy.
>
> JD:  Please see above.  I completely agree with you and was simply
> pointing out that multi-stage labels can be used to improve wrt latency
> and control plane overhead, the establishment of ODUj LSPs within
> multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Fatai
> >
> > Thanks
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John E Drake" <jdrake@juniper.net>
> > To: "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)"
> > <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > Cc: "Daniele Ceccarelli" <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>; "Rajan
> Rao"
> > <rrao@infinera.com>; "Fatai Zhang" <zhangfatai@huawei.com>; "Khuzema
> > Pithewan" <kpithewan@infinera.com>; "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)"
> > <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>; "Ashok Kunjidhapatham"
> > <akunjidhapatham@infinera.com>; "Diego Caviglia"
> > <diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>; "Steve Balls"
> > <Steve.Balls@metaswitch.com>; "Ciena - Lyndon Ong" <LyOng@Ciena.com>;
> > <fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; "NSN - Cyril Margaria"
> <cyril.margaria@nsn.com>;
> > "Li Dan" <huawei.danli@huawei.com>; "Jonathan Hardwick"
> > <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>; "Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler"
> > <jonathan.sadler@tellabs.com>; "Vallinayakam Somasundaram"
> > <valli@juniper.net>
> > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 7:21 PM
> > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> >
> > Pietro,
> >
> > If we are talking about the establishment of LSPs using single-stage
> > muxing, I think the only thing necessary is a new label format, which
> I
> > believe is a bit map of tributary slots; i.e., LSP establishment
> using
> > single-stage muxing is done.
> >
> > We have never had a situation such as multi-stage muxing before so we
> > are breaking new ground and we have two choices, either use LSP
> > hierarchy to establish multiple single-stage sub-layer LSPs
> explicitly
> > and sequentially, or include the sub-layer information within the
> Path
> > message for the ODUj such that the sub-layers are established
> > implicitly and concurrently with the establishment of the ODUj.
> >
> > Either will work, but it seems to me that the latter is more
> efficient
> > wrt latency and control plane overhead.  The one thing I do not want
> to
> > do is to say that both are supported.  If we can agree that we will
> > only use one method to establish multi-stage LSPs, then when a node
> > advertises multi-stage support in routing, we know how signaling is
> to
> > be accomplished.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > John
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 1:31 AM
> > > To: John E Drake
> > > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;
> Steve
> > > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril
> Margaria;
> > > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam
> > > Somasundaram; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > John,
> > >
> > > It seems as though you consider on the same level something (H-LSP
> > > concept) already used in CP managing multi-layer with something
> that
> > > does not exist at all.
> > > Operators are used to managed their CP network together with NMS.
> > > Most of the NMS work per-layer. The utilization of a multi-stage
> > label
> > > would force NMS to work in another manner with heavy implementation
> > > consequences.
> > >
> > > We should also keep in mind that multi-stage label approach can
> only
> > be
> > > used in some cases (not for all the one-hop multi-stage muxing) and
> > it
> > > will bring some management issues. Please see the slides that Fatai
> > > sent a few days ago.
> > >
> > > For both these reasons the "optional" condition of multi-stage
> label
> > > concept is absolutely mandatory for us.
> > >
> > > Pietro, Sergio, Fatai & Daniele
> > >
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> > > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> > > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> > > Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> > > Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an
> hour.
> > > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.
> > That's
> > > relativity.
> > > (A. Einstein)
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > > Sent: sabato 18 giugno 2011 2.40
> > > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;
> Steve
> > > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril
> Margaria;
> > > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam
> > > Somasundaram
> > > Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Pietro,
> > >
> > > We can certainly say that a node that advertises multistage
> switching
> > > support in routing MUST support multistage signaling.
> > >
> > > As I said before, using mutiple RSVP exchanges between the same LSP
> > > endpoints to establish intermediate switching stages seems ill-
> > > considered and forcing everyone to support two ways of signaling
> > > multistage LSPs seems like a really Bad Idea.
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > On Jun 17, 2011, at 2:55 AM, "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO
> > > VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-
> > > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello John,
> > >
> > > I understand that you think that the new switching type in routing
> > > should also convey implicitly the information that a
> > > multi-stage label is supported.
> > >
> > > I do not agree with this statement.
> > > Implementations using H-LSPs plus single stage labels are possible
> > (and
> > > already standard) and the fact the a node supports
> > > the new switching type is not enough to clearly tell what is
> > supported.
> > >
> > > Pietro
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > > Sent: venerd=EC 17 giugno 2011 2.09
> > > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); Daniele Ceccarelli;
> > > Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO);
> > > Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena -
> Lyndon
> > > Ong'; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Pietro,
> > >
> > > Actually we are already covered.   Our advertisements use a
> different
> > > switching type, which is also carried in signaling.  This means
> that
> > we
> > > get to define the signaling used for this switching type, and I am
> > > proposing that we use multistage.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 6:52 AM
> > > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang;
> Khuzema
> > > Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego
> > > Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I  agree with Daniele' statement.
> > >
> > > in my mind this means that single stage label support is implicit
> and
> > > that
> > > multi-stage labels should not be used unless a machine explicitly
> > > declares the support.
> > >
> > > Pietro
> > >
> > >
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> > > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> > > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> > > Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> > > Mail: <mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > > pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-
> > > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an
> hour.
> > > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.
> > That's
> > > relativity.
> > > (A. Einstein)
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]
> > > Sent: gioved=EC 16 giugno 2011 15.48
> > > To: John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> BELOTTI,
> > > SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO
> > (PIETRO
> > > VITTORIO); Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Starting a new thread as we're now moving to signaling...
> > >
> > > Assuming we still have not decided whether we're going to support
> > > single stage only, multi stage only or both of them i believe that
> as
> > > per OSPF we need to consider backward compatibility.
> > >
> > > An implementation RFC4328 based (that we've explicitly been told
> not
> > to
> > > deprecate) is single stage based, so in case of multi stage only or
> > > multi-stage + single stage we should be able to cover backward
> > > compatibility issues somehow.
> > >
> > > BR
> > > Daniele
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > > Sent: gioved=EC 16 giugno 2011 8.53
> > > To: Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham
> > > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;
> > 'Steve
> > > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for
> multi-
> > > stage Vs Single Stage labels)
> > > Rajan,
> > >
> > > I didn't want to allow interoperability options.  I much preferred
> to
> > > say that we do signaling in one way only, using multistage labels.
> > > These are also needed for signaling within  hierarchical LSPs.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > From: Rajan Rao [mailto:rrao@infinera.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 10:46 PM
> > > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; John E Drake; Khuzema
> Pithewan;
> > > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham
> > > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;
> > 'Steve
> > > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for
> multi-
> > > stage Vs Single Stage labels)
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > While we are making updates, let us discuss support required in
> link
> > > advertisement for single/multi-stage label options:
> > >
> > > Given that there is interest in both multi-stage label and single-
> > stage
> > > with H-LSPs, we should consider inclusion of a FLAG to indicate
> what
> > > the link is capable of.  This will address some of the issues we
> have
> > > discussed in the past relating to path computation involving NEs
> with
> > > different capabilities (inter-op).
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Rajan
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

From vishwas.ietf@gmail.com  Tue Jun 28 23:06:49 2011
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Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 23:06:46 -0700
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From: Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [OSPF] draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01
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Hi Fu,

There are some basic issues in the documents, especially regarding loss and
jitter. I had written a document addressing the same, but never got into
actually posting it.

I have attached the same here. Do let me know what you feel about the same?

Thanks,
Vishwas
2011/6/27 <fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>

>
> Hi All,
>
> I read through the draft-giacalone. For the portion of latency, there is =
no
> any essential difference between both of drafts.
> In the latest version, they added a bit in sub-TLV and gave some
> consideration for the advertisment control. This has aslo been described =
in
> our draft.
> Control plane always combines routing constraints with pre-defined
> priorities, e.g., SRLG diversity, latency, cost, and bandwidth.
> But I don't understand why we need to add *Residual*and *Available*bandwi=
dth
> in draft-giacalone. Why don't you use RFC4203 and RFC3630 to calculate th=
em?
>
> We will restructure draft-wang into a framework and some protocol specifi=
c
> parts (i.e., OSPF-TE and RSVP-TE) to address the issues raised in the
> framework.
> Based on suggestions from Lou and Acee, we agree that the OSPF protions
> from our draft is combined with draft-giacalone. OSPF extension will be
> developed in draft-giacalone.
> The framework document will mainly focus on the requirement of latency
> application and how to use latency information.
> I prefer framework document is done in CCAMP. But it is related to RTGWG
> and MPLS.
> Before we define the ability to report latency, it must be clear what we
> are reporting. So different implementations will report the same thing.
> Based on the discussion with Adrian by email, we will give some descripti=
on
> about what we are gong to report in this framework document.
> The rsvp-te document in CCAMP will give some solution for latency TE (e.g=
.,
> accumulation and verification of the delay).
>
> Xihua Fu
>
>
>   *Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>*
> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB:  ccamp-bounces@ietf.org
>
> 2011-06-22 =CF=C2=CE=E7 11:16
>    =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB
>  Acee Lindem <acee.lindem@ericsson.com>
>  =B3=AD=CB=CD
> CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>, OSPF WG List <ospf@ietf.org>
> =D6=F7=CC=E2
> Re: [CCAMP] [OSPF]   draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01
>
>
>
>
> OSPF WG for the OSPF extensions seems very reasonable to me ;-)
>
> I still hope that the OSPF portions of
> draft-wang-ccamp-latency-te-metric can be combined with
> draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path given that both drafts state that
> they are addressing essentially the same high-level problem.
>
> Lou
>
> On 6/22/2011 8:40 AM, Acee Lindem wrote:
> > Hi John,
> > As it stands, the draft contains mainly OSPF TE encodings and
> considerations. Hence, my inclination would be to keep it in the OSPF WG.
> However, I'm willing to listen to other proposals.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Acee
> > On Jun 21, 2011, at 11:10 PM, John E Drake wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I am a bit confused.  I thought the proper home for this work would
> either be the rtg wg or the mpls wg.  I thought it was presented to the O=
SPF
> wg for information only.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> John
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behal=
f
> >>> Of Alia Atlas
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 6:45 PM
> >>> To: Acee Lindem
> >>> Cc: Spencer Giacalone; CCAMP; OSPF WG List
> >>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [OSPF] draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01
> >>>
> >>> Hi Acee,
> >>>
> >>> I do agree that we should explicitly document this in the draft & wor=
k
> >>> on better names for the sub-TLVs that might be confused.
> >>> I also agree that we need to give the decision explicit consideration=
;
> >>> to give this the exposure necessary and consideration for
> >>> applications was why we had this draft discussed in rtgwg as well as
> >>> ospf.
> >>>
> >>> In addition to the obvious uses for RSVP-TE, another potential
> >>> application is the idea of a path-weighted ECMP, where traffic is
> >>> split to the different next-hops based upon the total path bandwidths
> >>> out those next-hops.  This is a pure IP application (LDP follows
> >>> of course) and I'd prefer not to lose track of those options when
> >>> considering the RSVP-TE applications.
> >>>
> >>> Alia
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 9:06 PM, Acee Lindem <acee.lindem@ericsson.co=
m
> >
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> Hi Alia,
> >>>> I guess I agree with Lou - heretofore, we've done TE requirements in
> >>> the MPLS/CCAMP WGs and the TE encodings in the IGP WGs. I think we
> >>> should give the decision explicit consideration before we branch off
> >>> and do TE for application X independently. Additionally, if we do
> >>> decide to split this off independently, an E-mail to the list saying
> >>> there is no overlap is not sufficient to move forward. At a minimum, =
I
> >>> believe we need to:
> >>>>
> >>>>   1. Explicitly document this alternate applicability and
> >>> relationship to existing TE in the draft.
> >>>>   2. Determine whether any sub-TLVs can be shared (my opinion was
> >>> consistent with yours that there are not due to differences in
> >>> requirements and measurement).
> >>>>   3. Assure the sub-TLVs are appropriately named to avoid confusion
> >>> between the latency applications.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>> Acee
> >>>> On Jun 21, 2011, at 2:08 PM, Alia Atlas wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hi Acee,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> John Drake and I did take a look at the draft mentioned in CCAMP.
> >>>  It
> >>>>> had a large number of requirements and extensions to
> >>>>> a number of different protocols.  There is one sub-TLV (latency)
> >>> that
> >>>>> appears the same - but the expectations
> >>>>> as to averaging vs. instantaneous were different.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The OSPF TE Express Path work is fairly self-contained and doesn't
> >>>>> specify in exact detail how the information
> >>>>> for the sub-TLVs is measured or obtained.  I think it could be used
> >>>>> for multiple purposes.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Alia
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 12:49 PM, Acee Lindem
> >>> <acee.lindem@ericsson.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> Hi Spencer (CCAMP copied as well),
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Here is a link for everyone's convenience:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01.txt
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> At IETF 80, there were questions about overlap with other CCAMP
> >>> drafts containing interface delay metrics and proposals for new TE su=
b-
> >>> TLVs. Have you or your co-authors, done looked at how your draft is
> >>> positioned versus these other drafts? While these applications have
> >>> differing goals, the CCAMP/OSPF chairs requested that this analysis b=
e
> >>> done.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-wang-ccamp-latency-te-metric-03.txt
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> We would like to avoid having exactly the same information
> >>> advertised in two different link Sub-TLVs. I'd hope we could agree on
> >>> common units.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>> Acee
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Jun 20, 2011, at 4:30 PM, Spencer Giacalone wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hello everyone,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> As you may have noticed, another version of the OSPF TE Express
> >>> Path
> >>>>>>> draft has been posted. We made a number of changes based on
> >>> feedback
> >>>>>>> from IETF 80. We invite your comments and suggestions. The main
> >>>>>>> changes include:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -We have consolidated some sub-TLVs for efficiency. There are no
> >>>>>>> longer nominal and anomalous sub-TLVs for delay and loss. The
> >>>>>>> functionality for signaling steady state verses abnormal
> >>> performance
> >>>>>>> for these parameters have been moved into two sub-TLVs (where we
> >>> used
> >>>>>>> to have four).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -In order to advertise both normal and abnormal network
> >>> performance
> >>>>>>> state in consolidated sub-TLVs, a bit, called the anomalous (A)
> >>> but
> >>>>>>> has been added to certain sub-TLVs. The A bit is set when the
> >>> measured
> >>>>>>> value of a parameter exceeds a configured maximum threshold. The =
A
> >>> bit
> >>>>>>> is cleared when the measured value falls below its configured
> >>> reuse
> >>>>>>> threshold. If the A bit is clear, the sub-TLV represents steady
> >>> state
> >>>>>>> link performance.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -We changed the encodings of certain variables from floating poin=
t
> >>> to
> >>>>>>> fixed point. This change permits the addition of the A bit (when
> >>>>>>> necessary), it allows bit-space reservations to be made, and it
> >>>>>>> permits a common TLV format across the bulk of the TLVs in the
> >>> draft.
> >>>>>>> In addition, the new encodings address concerns about granularity
> >>> and
> >>>>>>> interoperability.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -We added sub-TLVs for Residual Bandwidth and Available Bandwidth=
.
> >>>>>>> Residual bandwidth is defined as the Maximum Bandwidth [RFC3630]
> >>> minus
> >>>>>>> the bandwidth currently allocated to RSVP-TE LSPs. Available
> >>> bandwidth
> >>>>>>> is defined to be residual bandwidth minus the measured bandwidth
> >>> used
> >>>>>>> for the actual forwarding of non-RSVP-TE LSP packets.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -Various other modifications were made across the draft. These
> >>>>>>> include, but are not limited to, the abstract, the introduction,
> >>> the
> >>>>>>> thresholding specifications, and a number of field descriptions.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -Last, but certainly not least, Stefano Providi has joined the
> >>> draft
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> We look forward to hearing your comments and concerns.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Spencer, Alia, Dave, John, Stefano
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> OSPF mailing list
> >>>>>>> OSPF@ietf.org
> >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> OSPF mailing list
> >>>>>> OSPF@ietf.org
> >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> CCAMP mailing list
> >>> CCAMP@ietf.org
> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OSPF mailing list
> > OSPF@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
> >
> >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>
>

--bcaec5016525dab17104a6d39677
Content-Type: text/html; charset=GB2312
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div>Hi Fu,</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>There are some basic issues in the documents, especially regarding los=
s and jitter. I had written a document addressing the same, but never got i=
nto actually posting it.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>I have attached the same here. Do let me know what you feel about the =
same?</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div>Vishwas<br></div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">2011/6/27 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn">fu.xihua@zte.com.cn</a>&gt;</span><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid"><br><font face=3D"sans-serif" si=
ze=3D"2">Hi All,</font> <br><br><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"2">I read=
 through the draft-giacalone. For the portion of latency, there is no any e=
ssential difference between both of drafts. </font><br>
<font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"2">In the latest version, they added a bi=
t in sub-TLV and gave some consideration for the advertisment control. This=
 has aslo been described in our draft.</font> <br><font face=3D"sans-serif"=
 size=3D"2">Control plane always combines routing constraints with pre-defi=
ned priorities, e.g., SRLG diversity, latency, cost, and bandwidth. </font>=
<br>
<font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"2">But I don&#39;t understand why we need=
 to add <i>Residual</i>and <i>Available</i>bandwidth in draft-giacalone. Wh=
y don&#39;t you use RFC4203 and RFC3630 to calculate them?</font> <br><br><=
font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"2">We will restructure draft-wang into a f=
ramework and some protocol specific parts (i.e., OSPF-TE and RSVP-TE) to ad=
dress the issues raised in the framework. </font><br>
<font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"2">Based on suggestions from Lou and Acee=
, we agree that the OSPF protions from our draft is combined with draft-gia=
calone. OSPF extension will be developed in draft-giacalone.</font> <br><fo=
nt face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"2">The framework document will mainly focus =
on the requirement of latency application and how to use latency informatio=
n. &nbsp;</font> <br>
<font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"2">I prefer framework document is done in=
 CCAMP. But it is related to RTGWG and MPLS.</font> <br><font face=3D"sans-=
serif" size=3D"2">Before we define the ability to report latency, it must b=
e clear what we are reporting. So different implementations will report the=
 same thing. </font><br>
<font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"2">Based on the discussion with Adrian by=
 email, we will give some description about what we are gong to report in t=
his framework document.</font> <br><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"2">The=
 rsvp-te document in CCAMP will give some solution for latency TE (e.g., ac=
cumulation and verification of the delay). </font><br>
<br><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"2">Xihua Fu</font> <br><br><br>
<table width=3D"100%">
<tbody>
<tr valign=3D"top">
<td width=3D"35%"><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"1"><b>Lou Berger &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net" target=3D"_blank">lberger@labn.net</a>&gt=
;</b> </font><br><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"1">=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: &=
nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ccamp-boun=
ces@ietf.org</a></font>=20
<p><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"1">2011-06-22 =CF=C2=CE=E7 11:16</font=
> </p>
<td width=3D"64%">
<table width=3D"100%">
<tbody>
<tr valign=3D"top">
<td>
<div align=3D"right"><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"1">=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=
=CB</font></div>
<td>
<div class=3D"im"><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"1">Acee Lindem &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:acee.lindem@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">acee.lindem@erics=
son.com</a>&gt;</font> </div>
<tr valign=3D"top">
<td>
<div align=3D"right"><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"1">=B3=AD=CB=CD</fon=
t></div>
<td><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"1">CCAMP &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp@=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ccamp@ietf.org</a>&gt;, OSPF WG List &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:ospf@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ospf@ietf.org</a>&gt;</font>=
=20
<tr valign=3D"top">
<td>
<div align=3D"right"><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"1">=D6=F7=CC=E2</fon=
t></div>
<td><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"1">Re: [CCAMP] [OSPF] &nbsp; draft-gi=
acalone-ospf-te-express-path-01</font></td></td></tr></td></td></tr></td></=
td></tr></tbody></table><br>
<table>
<tbody>
<tr valign=3D"top">
<td>
<td></td></td></tr></tbody></table><br></td>
<td><p></p></td></td></tr></tbody></table>
<div>
<div></div>
<div class=3D"h5"><br><br><br><font size=3D"2"><tt>OSPF WG for the OSPF ext=
ensions seems very reasonable to me ;-)<br><br>I still hope that the OSPF p=
ortions of<br>draft-wang-ccamp-latency-te-metric can be combined with<br>dr=
aft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path given that both drafts state that<br>
they are addressing essentially the same high-level problem.<br><br>Lou<br>=
<br>On 6/22/2011 8:40 AM, Acee Lindem wrote:<br>&gt; Hi John, <br>&gt; As i=
t stands, the draft contains mainly OSPF TE encodings and considerations. H=
ence, my inclination would be to keep it in the OSPF WG. However, I&#39;m w=
illing to listen to other proposals. <br>
&gt; <br>&gt; Thanks,<br>&gt; Acee<br>&gt; On Jun 21, 2011, at 11:10 PM, Jo=
hn E Drake wrote:<br>&gt; <br>&gt;&gt; Hi,<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; I am a b=
it confused. &nbsp;I thought the proper home for this work would either be =
the rtg wg or the mpls wg. &nbsp;I thought it was presented to the OSPF wg =
for information only.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; John <br>&gt;&gt;<br>&=
gt;&gt; Sent from my iPhone<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; -----Or=
iginal Message-----<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@i=
etf.org" target=3D"_blank">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a>] =
On Behalf<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Of Alia Atlas<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 6:4=
5 PM<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; To: Acee Lindem<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; Cc: Spencer Giacalone;=
 CCAMP; OSPF WG List<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [OSPF] draft-giac=
alone-ospf-te-express-path-01<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Acee,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; I do =
agree that we should explicitly document this in the draft &amp; work<br>&g=
t;&gt;&gt; on better names for the sub-TLVs that might be confused.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; I also agree that we need to give the decision explicit consid=
eration;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; to give this the exposure necessary and considerat=
ion for<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; applications was why we had this draft discussed in=
 rtgwg as well as<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; ospf.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; In addition to the obvio=
us uses for RSVP-TE, another potential<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; application is the i=
dea of a path-weighted ECMP, where traffic is<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; split to the =
different next-hops based upon the total path bandwidths<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; out those next-hops. &nbsp;This is a pure IP application (LDP =
follows<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; of course) and I&#39;d prefer not to lose track of =
those options when<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; considering the RSVP-TE applications.<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; Alia<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; On Tue, J=
un 21, 2011 at 9:06 PM, Acee Lindem &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acee.lindem@erics=
son.com" target=3D"_blank">acee.lindem@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;=
 wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Alia,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I guess I agree with Lou - he=
retofore, we&#39;ve done TE requirements in<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; the MPLS/CCAMP =
WGs and the TE encodings in the IGP WGs. I think we<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; should =
give the decision explicit consideration before we branch off<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; and do TE for application X independently. Additionally, if we=
 do<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; decide to split this off independently, an E-mail to th=
e list saying<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; there is no overlap is not sufficient to move=
 forward. At a minimum, I<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; believe we need to:<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &n=
bsp; 1. Explicitly document this alternate applicability and<br>&gt;&gt;&gt=
; relationship to existing TE in the draft.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp; 2. D=
etermine whether any sub-TLVs can be shared (my opinion was<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; consistent with yours that there are not due to differences in=
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; requirements and measurement).<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp; =
3. Assure the sub-TLVs are appropriately named to avoid confusion<br>&gt;&g=
t;&gt; between the latency applications.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Acee<br>&g=
t;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Jun 21, 2011, at 2:08 PM, Alia Atlas wrote:<br>&gt;&gt;&g=
t;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Acee,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt; John Drake and I did take a look at the draft mentioned in CCA=
MP.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;It<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; had a large number of require=
ments and extensions to<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; a number of different proto=
cols. &nbsp;There is one sub-TLV (latency)<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; that<br>&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt; appears the same - but the expectations<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; as to averaging vs. instantaneous were different.<br>&=
gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The OSPF TE Express Path work i=
s fairly self-contained and doesn&#39;t<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; specify in =
exact detail how the information<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; for the sub-TLVs is measured or obtained. &nbsp;I thin=
k it could be used<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; for multiple purposes.<br>&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Alia<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 12:49 PM, Acee Lindem<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acee.lindem@ericsson.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">acee.lindem@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi =
Spencer (CCAMP copied as well),<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt; Here is a link for everyone&#39;s convenience:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.=
ietf.org/id/draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01.txt" target=3D"_blank">=
http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01.txt</a><br>&=
gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; At IETF 80, there were questions about overlap wit=
h other CCAMP<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; drafts containing interface delay metrics and=
 proposals for new TE sub-<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; TLVs. Have you or your co-author=
s, done looked at how your draft is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; positioned versus these other drafts? While these applications=
 have<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; differing goals, the CCAMP/OSPF chairs requested that=
 this analysis be<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; done.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-wang-ccamp=
-latency-te-metric-03.txt" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-w=
ang-ccamp-latency-te-metric-03.txt</a><br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&=
gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; We would like to avoid having exactly the same informat=
ion<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; advertised in two different link Sub-TLVs. I&#39;d hope we cou=
ld agree on<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; common units.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&g=
t;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Acee<br>&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Jun 20, 2011, at 4:30 PM, Spencer Giacalone wro=
te:<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hello every=
one,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; As you=
 may have noticed, another version of the OSPF TE Express<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Path<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; draft has been posted. We=
 made a number of changes based on<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; feedback<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; from IETF 80. We invite your comments and suggestions. The=
 main<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; changes include:<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&g=
t;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -We have consolidated some sub-TLVs for =
efficiency. There are no<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; longer nominal and=
 anomalous sub-TLVs for delay and loss. The<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; functionality for signaling steady state verse=
s abnormal<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; performance<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; for =
these parameters have been moved into two sub-TLVs (where we<br>&gt;&gt;&gt=
; used<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; to have four).<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -In order to advertise both normal and abn=
ormal network<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; performance<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; s=
tate in consolidated sub-TLVs, a bit, called the anomalous (A)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; but<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; has been added to certain =
sub-TLVs. The A bit is set when the<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; measured<br>&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; value of a parameter exceeds a configured maximum thresho=
ld. The A<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; bit<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; is cleared when the measur=
ed value falls below its configured<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; reuse<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt;&gt; threshold. If the A bit is clear, the sub-TLV represents ste=
ady<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; state<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; link performance.<br>&gt=
;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -We changed the e=
ncodings of certain variables from floating point<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; fixed point. This change permits the addition =
of the A bit (when<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; necessary), it allows bi=
t-space reservations to be made, and it<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; per=
mits a common TLV format across the bulk of the TLVs in the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; draft.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In addition, the new en=
codings address concerns about granularity<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; and<br>&gt;&gt;&=
gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; interoperability.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -We added sub-TLVs for Residual Bandwidth and =
Available Bandwidth.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Residual bandwidth is =
defined as the Maximum Bandwidth [RFC3630]<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; minus<br>&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the bandwidth currently allocated to RSVP-TE LSPs. Av=
ailable<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; bandwidth<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; is defined to be res=
idual bandwidth minus the measured bandwidth<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; used<br>&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; for the actual forwarding of non-RSVP-TE LSP packets=
.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -Various other=
 modifications were made across the draft. These<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt; include, but are not limited to, the abstract, the introduction,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; the<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; thresholding specification=
s, and a number of field descriptions.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&=
gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -Last, but certainly not least, Stefano Providi=
 has joined the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; draft<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt;&gt; We look forward to hearing your comments and concerns.<br>&gt;&gt;&=
gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Spencer, Alia, Dave, John, Stefano<br>&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>&gt=
;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; OSPF mailing list<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
 <a href=3D"mailto:OSPF@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">OSPF@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin=
fo/ospf" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf</a><b=
r>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ____________________=
___________________________<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; OSPF mailing list<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a h=
ref=3D"mailto:OSPF@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">OSPF@ietf.org</a><br>&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt=
;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; CCAMP=
 mailing list<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org" target=3D"_=
blank">CCAMP@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp" target=
=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp</a><br>&gt; <br>&gt=
; _______________________________________________<br>&gt; OSPF mailing list=
<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:OSPF@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">OSPF@ietf.org</a><b=
r>&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf</a><br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&g=
t; <br>
&gt; <br>_______________________________________________<br>CCAMP mailing l=
ist<br><a href=3D"mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">CCAMP@ietf.org</=
a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp</a><br>
<br></tt></font><br></div></div><br>_______________________________________=
________<br>CCAMP mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org">CCAMP@i=
etf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br>

--bcaec5016525dab17104a6d39677--
--bcaec5016525dab17504a6d39679
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Network Working Group                                          V. Manral
Internet-Draft                                     Hewlett-Packard Corp.
Intended status: Standards Track                           =20
Expires: November 17, 2011                              =20
                                                            May 16, 2011


        Traffic Engineering architecture for services aware MPLS
                      draft-manral-mpls-service-00

Abstract

   With more and more enterprises using cloud based services, the
   distances between the user and the applications are growing.  A lot
   of the current applications are designed to work across LAN's and
   have various inherent assumptions.  For multiple applications such as
   High Performance Computing and Electronic Financial markets, the
   response times are critical as is packet loss, while other
   applications require more throughput.

   [RFC3031] describes the architecture of MPLS based networks.  This
   draft extends the MPLS architecture to allow for latency, loss and
   jitter as properties.

   Note MPLS architecture for Multicast will be taken up in a future
   version of the draft.

Requirements Language

   The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT",
   "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this
   document are to be interpreted as described in [RFC 2119].

Status of this Memo

   This Internet-Draft is submitted in full conformance with the
   provisions of BCP 78 and BCP 79.

   Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering
   Task Force (IETF).  Note that other groups may also distribute
   working documents as Internet-Drafts.  The list of current Internet-
   Drafts is at http://datatracker.ietf.org/drafts/current/.

   Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months
   and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any
   time.  It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference
   material or to cite them other than as "work in progress."




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   This Internet-Draft will expire on November 17, 2011.

Copyright Notice

   Copyright (c) 2011 IETF Trust and the persons identified as the
   document authors.  All rights reserved.

   This document is subject to BCP 78 and the IETF Trust's Legal
   Provisions Relating to IETF Documents
   (http://trustee.ietf.org/license-info) in effect on the date of
   publication of this document.  Please review these documents
   carefully, as they describe your rights and restrictions with respect
   to this document.  Code Components extracted from this document must
   include Simplified BSD License text as described in Section 4.e of
   the Trust Legal Provisions and are provided without warranty as
   described in the Simplified BSD License.



































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Table of Contents

   1.  Introduction  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
   2.  End-to-End Latency Measurements . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
   3.  End-to-End Jitter Measurements  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5
   4.  End-to-End Loss Measurements  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5
   5.  Protocol Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6
   6.  IANA Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6
   7.  Security Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6
   8.  Acknowledgements  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6
   Authors' Addresses  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6








































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1.  Introduction

   In High Frequency trading for Electronic Financial markets, computers
   make decisions based on the Electronic Data received, without human
   intervention.  These trades now account for a majority of the trading
   volumes and rely exclusively on ultra-low-latency direct market
   access.

   Extremely low latency measurements for MPLS LSP tunnels are defined
   in draft-ietf-mpls-loss-delay.  They allow a mechanism to measure and
   monitor performance metrics for packet loss, and one-way and two-way
   delay, as well as related metrics like delay variation and channel
   throughput.

   The measurements are however effective only after the LSP is created
   and cannot be used by MPLS Path computation engine to define paths
   that have the latest latency.  This draft defines the architecture
   used, so that end-to-end tunnels can be set up based on latency, loss
   or jitter characteristics.


2.  End-to-End Latency Measurements

   Latency or one-way delay is the time it takes for a packet within a
   stream going from measurement point 1 to measurement point 2.

   The architecture uses assumption that the sum of the latencies of the
   individual components approximately adds up to the average latency of
   an LSP.  Though using the sum may not be perfect, it however gives a
   good approximation that can be used for Traffic Engineering (TE)
   purposes.

   The total latency of an LSP consists of the sum of the latency of the
   LSP hop, as well as the average latency of switching on a device,
   which may vary based on queuing and buffering.

   Hop latency can be measured by getting the latency measurement
   between the ingress of one MPLS LSR to the ingress of the nexthop
   LSR.  This value may be constant for most part, unless there is
   protection switching, or other similar changes at a lower layer.

   The switching latency on a device, can be measured internally, and
   multiple mechanisms and data structures to do the same have been
   defined.  Add references to papers by Verghese, Kompella, Duffield.
   Though the mechanisms define how to do flow based measurements, the
   amount of information gathered in such a case, may become too
   cumbersome for the Path Computation element to effectively use.




Manral & Giacalone      Expires November 17, 2011               [Page 4]
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Internet-Draft        Link Latency, Jitter and Loss             May 2011


   An approximation of Flow based measurement is the per DSCP value,
   measurement from the ingress of one port to the egress of every other
   port in the device.

   Another approximation that can be used is per interface DSCP based
   measurement, which can be an agrregate of the average measurements
   per interface.  The average can itself be calculated in ways, so as
   to provide closer approximation.

   The delay is measured in terms of 10's of nano-seconds.


3.  End-to-End Jitter Measurements

   Jitter or Packet Delay Variation of a packet within a stream of
   packets is defined for a selected pair of packets in the stream going
   from measurement point 1 to measurement point 2.

   The architecture uses assumption that the sum of the jitter of the
   individual components approximately adds up to the average jitter of
   an LSP.  Though using the sum may not be perfect, it however gives a
   good approximation that can be used for Traffic Engineering (TE)
   purposes.

   There may be very less jitter on a link-hop basis.

   The buffering and queuing within a device will lead to the jitter.
   Just like latency measurements, jitter measurements can be
   appproximated as either per DSCP per port pair (Ingresss and Egress)
   or as per DSCP per egress port.

   The jitter is measured in terms of 10's of nano-seconds.


4.  End-to-End Loss Measurements

   Loss or Packet Drop probability of a packet within a stream of
   packets is defined as the number of packets dropped within a given
   interval.

   The architecture uses assumption that the sum of the loss of the
   individual components approximately adds up to the average loss of an
   LSP.  Though using the sum may not be perfect, it however gives a
   good approximation that can be used for Traffic Engineering (TE)
   purposes.

   There may be very less loss on a link-hop basis, except in case of
   physical link issues.



Manral & Giacalone      Expires November 17, 2011               [Page 5]
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Internet-Draft        Link Latency, Jitter and Loss             May 2011


   The buffering and queuing mechanisms within a device will decide
   which packet is to be dropped.  Just like latency and jitter
   measurements, the loss can best be appproximated as either per DSCP
   per port pair (Ingresss and Egress) or as per DSCP per egress port.

   The loss is measured in terms of the number of packets per million
   packets.


5.  Protocol Considerations

   The protocol metrics above can be sent in IGP protocol packets RFC
   3630.  They can then be used by the Path Computation engine to
   dervice paths with the desired path properties.

   As Link-state IGP information is flooded throughout an area, frequent
   changes can cause a lot of control traffic.  To prevent such
   flooding, data should only be flooded when it crosses a certain
   configured maximum.

   A seperate measurement should be done for an LSP when it is UP.  Also
   LSP's path should only be recalculated when the end-to-end metrics
   changes in a way it becomes more then desired.


6.  IANA Considerations

   No new IANA consideration are raised by this document.


7.  Security Considerations

   This document raises no new security issues.


8.  Acknowledgements

   TBD.













Manral & Giacalone      Expires November 17, 2011               [Page 6]
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Authors' Addresses

   Vishwas Manral
   Hewlett-Packard Corp.
   191111 Pruneridge Ave.
   Cupertino, CA  95014
   US

   Phone: 408-447-1497
   Email: vishwas@ipinfusion.com
   URI:


   Spencer Giacalone
   Thomson Reuters
   195 Broadway
   New York, NY  10007
   US

   Phone: 646-822-3000
   Email: spencer.giacalone@thomsonreuters.com
   URI:





























Manral & Giacalone      Expires November 17, 2011               [Page 7]
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--=_mixed 0024ED9B482578BE_=--


From pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com  Wed Jun 29 00:41:44 2011
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From: "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 09:41:30 +0200
Thread-Topic: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Hello Igor,

The discussion is all in deciding whether to consider the
support of multi-stage label as optional or mandatory.

Support of multi-stage labels have consequences that include:
1) the fact that it is not possible to protect intermediate layers either v=
ia protection or restoration. This restricts the application field of the c=
oncept in such a way that it can be considered an optimization applicable t=
o specific cases.

2) Heavy impacts on transport network management systems that are currently=
 based on "per layer management" and should work in a very different way.

Last but not least, the OTN architecture allows explicitly the "per layer"
management, that is the reference for transport networks. Every GMPLS imple=
mentation has to be consistent with this reference.

In conclusion, the usage of the multi-stage label  should be considered as =
optional and the support should be clearly stated via an appropriate advert=
ising.

Unfortunately, contrary to  point 3), someone insists in forcing the usage =
and support of multi-stage labels as mandatory.

The point in discussion is all here.

Best Regards
Pietro & Sergio


Hi Pietro,

You may not like John's tone, but emotions aside, what he keeps saying repe=
atedly in this discussion does make perfect sense to me.
1) The point of CP signaling is to convey information pertinent to network =
element provisioning in most efficient way. It does seem stupid to signal n=
umerous one hop hierarchical LSPs (when it is sufficient a single end-to-en=
d round of signaling to do the job), create and support numerous extra CP s=
tates, take care of all restart implications, etc. just to be consistent wi=
th RFC_XYZ written 10 years ago;

2) Besides, you can think of multi-stage label as identification of a new t=
ype of network resources controlled by GMPLS. Even the GMPLS god-fathers wo=
uld agree that they never meant to limit GMPLS to control the resources des=
cribed in early CCAMP RFCs.
3) Finally, no one ever said that you cannot orchestrate multi-stage provis=
ioning through the hierarchy of LSPs if you choose to do so.


-----Original Message-----
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of G=
RANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 10:43 AM
To: John E Drake
Cc: CCAMP
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

Hello John,

1) You have forwarded to the CCamp mailing list a number of private mails w=
ithout asking the permission to the involved people. This is impolite and u=
nprofessional.

2) You are creating spam on the mailing list forwarding four threads that a=
re each hundreds of lines long and very complicated to follow for people no=
t involved in the discussion since the beginning. Moreover, this happened a=
fter a discussion from scratch was already started in the mailing list.

3) You moved from a technical discussion to arrogant and deliberate persona=
l offenses not supported by any sound technical motivation as reported in y=
our mails and snipped below:

"This shows a complete lack of understanding of hierarchical LSP, multi-sta=
ge labels, and GMPLS in general.  It is so bad it is not even wrong."

" It might be more precise to say I reviewed your slides and found them, sh=
all we say, lacking."

We hope that from now on the discussion can be continued from a purely tech=
nical point of view.

Pietro, Sergio and Daniele

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Pietro Vittorio Grandi
Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
Tel: +39 039 686 4930
Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute. That's rel=
ativity.
(A. Einstein)

-----Original Message-----
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of J=
ohn E Drake
Sent: marted=EC 28 giugno 2011 14.13
To: CCAMP
Subject: [CCAMP] FW: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage



Sent from my iPhone


-----Original Message-----
From: John E Drake
Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 3:56 PM
To: 'Fatai Zhang'; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan Hardwick=
; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; St=
eve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); =
Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli
Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

Fatai,

Comments inline.

Thanks,

John

Sent from my iPhone


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fatai Zhang [mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com]
> Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 9:45 AM
> To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); John E Drake
> Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan
> Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -
> Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham; BELOTTI,
> SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli
> Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
> Hi John,
>
> I guess that you did not review our slides carefully.

JD:  I will let this pass.

>
> You just see the only advantage for the corner case (i.e., establish
> multi-layers LSP concurrently), but you did not see the issues that we
> described in the slides and the issues that Jonathan mentioned (eg.,
> OAM/protection issues).

JD:  I'm sorry that I didn't provide enough context.  I don't think the one=
-hop hierarchical LSP case, w/ or w/o multi-stage labels is either interest=
ing or common and it was not the case to which I was addressing my comments=
.  Rather, I was describing two ways of establishing multi-hop multi-stage =
hierarchical LSPs.  As far as I can tell the issues Jonathan raised in this=
 context are red herrings rather than blue whales.  Furthermore, regardless=
 of which of the two approaches I described is used, the issues, if any, wo=
uld be exactly the same.

>
> In addition, we have repeated many times that LSP hierarchy must be
> used in many cases, even though we have multi-stage label approach.
> E.g., an ODU0 connection request from A to E through B, C and D, but B,
> C and  D (or one of them ) can not support ODU0 switching, the HO ODUj
> (ODU1 or ODU2 or ODU3 or ODU4) LSP must be created between B and D
> through LSP hierarchy. This example is very simple and there are lots
> of transforms for this example to use LSP hierarchy.

JD:  Please see above.  I completely agree with you and was simply pointing=
 out that multi-stage labels can be used to improve wrt latency and control=
 plane overhead, the establishment of ODUj LSPs within multi-stage hierarch=
ical LSPs.

>
>
>
>
> Fatai
>
> Thanks
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John E Drake" <jdrake@juniper.net>
> To: "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)"
> <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> Cc: "Daniele Ceccarelli" <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>; "Rajan Rao"
> <rrao@infinera.com>; "Fatai Zhang" <zhangfatai@huawei.com>; "Khuzema
> Pithewan" <kpithewan@infinera.com>; "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)"
> <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>; "Ashok Kunjidhapatham"
> <akunjidhapatham@infinera.com>; "Diego Caviglia"
> <diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>; "Steve Balls"
> <Steve.Balls@metaswitch.com>; "Ciena - Lyndon Ong" <LyOng@Ciena.com>;
> <fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; "NSN - Cyril Margaria" <cyril.margaria@nsn.com>;
> "Li Dan" <huawei.danli@huawei.com>; "Jonathan Hardwick"
> <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>; "Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler"
> <jonathan.sadler@tellabs.com>; "Vallinayakam Somasundaram"
> <valli@juniper.net>
> Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 7:21 PM
> Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
>
> Pietro,
>
> If we are talking about the establishment of LSPs using single-stage
> muxing, I think the only thing necessary is a new label format, which I
> believe is a bit map of tributary slots; i.e., LSP establishment using
> single-stage muxing is done.
>
> We have never had a situation such as multi-stage muxing before so we
> are breaking new ground and we have two choices, either use LSP
> hierarchy to establish multiple single-stage sub-layer LSPs explicitly
> and sequentially, or include the sub-layer information within the Path
> message for the ODUj such that the sub-layers are established
> implicitly and concurrently with the establishment of the ODUj.
>
> Either will work, but it seems to me that the latter is more efficient
> wrt latency and control plane overhead.  The one thing I do not want to
> do is to say that both are supported.  If we can agree that we will
> only use one method to establish multi-stage LSPs, then when a node
> advertises multi-stage support in routing, we know how signaling is to
> be accomplished.
>
> Thanks,
>
> John
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 1:31 AM
> > To: John E Drake
> > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia; Steve
> > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril Margaria;
> > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam
> > Somasundaram; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > John,
> >
> > It seems as though you consider on the same level something (H-LSP
> > concept) already used in CP managing multi-layer with something that
> > does not exist at all.
> > Operators are used to managed their CP network together with NMS.
> > Most of the NMS work per-layer. The utilization of a multi-stage
> label
> > would force NMS to work in another manner with heavy implementation
> > consequences.
> >
> > We should also keep in mind that multi-stage label approach can only
> be
> > used in some cases (not for all the one-hop multi-stage muxing) and
> it
> > will bring some management issues. Please see the slides that Fatai
> > sent a few days ago.
> >
> > For both these reasons the "optional" condition of multi-stage label
> > concept is absolutely mandatory for us.
> >
> > Pietro, Sergio, Fatai & Daniele
> >
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> > Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> > Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
> > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.
> That's
> > relativity.
> > (A. Einstein)
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > Sent: sabato 18 giugno 2011 2.40
> > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia; Steve
> > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril Margaria;
> > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam
> > Somasundaram
> > Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > Pietro,
> >
> > We can certainly say that a node that advertises multistage switching
> > support in routing MUST support multistage signaling.
> >
> > As I said before, using mutiple RSVP exchanges between the same LSP
> > endpoints to establish intermediate switching stages seems ill-
> > considered and forcing everyone to support two ways of signaling
> > multistage LSPs seems like a really Bad Idea.
> >
> > John
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Jun 17, 2011, at 2:55 AM, "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO
> > VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-
> > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Hello John,
> >
> > I understand that you think that the new switching type in routing
> > should also convey implicitly the information that a
> > multi-stage label is supported.
> >
> > I do not agree with this statement.
> > Implementations using H-LSPs plus single stage labels are possible
> (and
> > already standard) and the fact the a node supports
> > the new switching type is not enough to clearly tell what is
> supported.
> >
> > Pietro
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > Sent: venerd=EC 17 giugno 2011 2.09
> > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); Daniele Ceccarelli;
> > Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO);
> > Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon
> > Ong'; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> Sadler';
> > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > Pietro,
> >
> > Actually we are already covered.   Our advertisements use a different
> > switching type, which is also carried in signaling.  This means that
> we
> > get to define the signaling used for this switching type, and I am
> > proposing that we use multistage.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > John
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 6:52 AM
> > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema
> > Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego
> > Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> Sadler';
> > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I  agree with Daniele' statement.
> >
> > in my mind this means that single stage label support is implicit and
> > that
> > multi-stage labels should not be used unless a machine explicitly
> > declares the support.
> >
> > Pietro
> >
> >
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> > Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> > Mail: <mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-
> > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
> > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.
> That's
> > relativity.
> > (A. Einstein)
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]
> > Sent: gioved=EC 16 giugno 2011 15.48
> > To: John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan; BELOTTI,
> > SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO
> (PIETRO
> > VITTORIO); Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> Sadler';
> > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > Subject: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > Starting a new thread as we're now moving to signaling...
> >
> > Assuming we still have not decided whether we're going to support
> > single stage only, multi stage only or both of them i believe that as
> > per OSPF we need to consider backward compatibility.
> >
> > An implementation RFC4328 based (that we've explicitly been told not
> to
> > deprecate) is single stage based, so in case of multi stage only or
> > multi-stage + single stage we should be able to cover backward
> > compatibility issues somehow.
> >
> > BR
> > Daniele
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > Sent: gioved=EC 16 giugno 2011 8.53
> > To: Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham
> > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;
> 'Steve
> > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> Sadler';
> > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for multi-
> > stage Vs Single Stage labels)
> > Rajan,
> >
> > I didn't want to allow interoperability options.  I much preferred to
> > say that we do signaling in one way only, using multistage labels.
> > These are also needed for signaling within  hierarchical LSPs.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > John
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > From: Rajan Rao [mailto:rrao@infinera.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 10:46 PM
> > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; John E Drake; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham
> > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;
> 'Steve
> > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> Sadler';
> > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for multi-
> > stage Vs Single Stage labels)
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > While we are making updates, let us discuss support required in link
> > advertisement for single/multi-stage label options:
> >
> > Given that there is interest in both multi-stage label and single-
> stage
> > with H-LSPs, we should consider inclusion of a FLAG to indicate what
> > the link is capable of.  This will address some of the issues we have
> > discussed in the past relating to path computation involving NEs with
> > different capabilities (inter-op).
> >
> > Thanks
> > Rajan
_______________________________________________
CCAMP mailing list
CCAMP@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
_______________________________________________
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CCAMP@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

From zhangfatai@huawei.com  Wed Jun 29 01:59:22 2011
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Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 16:58:55 +0800
From: Fatai Zhang <zhangfatai@huawei.com>
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To: 'John E Drake' <jdrake@juniper.net>, 'Igor Bryskin' <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>, "'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO	VITTORIO)'" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
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Cc: 'CCAMP' <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Hi John,

=20

Agree with Igor that let emotions aside if there was some improper =
wording.
Let=A1=AFs discuss tech.

=20

Could you clarify your point 1) a little more? Here is a simple example
shown below.=20

=20

Could you explain how to create ODU0 connection from Node A to Node E by
multi-stage labels approach? What information (e.g., traffic parameters,
labels) should be carried in the Path or Resv message? What action =
should be
taken for Node C when receiving the Path or Resv message?

=20

=20

=20



=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

Thanks

=20

Fatai

=20

=20

-----Original Message-----
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of
John E Drake
Sent: 2011=C4=EA6=D4=C229=C8=D5 6:12
To: Igor Bryskin; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
Cc: CCAMP
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

=20

Igor,

=20

I have a few clarifications.

=20

1)  Multi-stage labels apply equally well to multi-hop hierarchical =
LSPs.
(The is the point some people do not seem to understand.)

=20

2)  It is incorrect to say that LSP hierarchy, as is, just works for the
establishment of a hierarchical LSP that supports multi-stage switching.
This involves a nested set of hierarchical LSPs, the containing =
hierarchical
LSP and the set of sub-layer LSPs which provide context for intermediate
stage labels, between the same two endpoints.  This is a new construct =
and
there are almost certainly details to be worked out.

=20

3)  I don't think we should standardize both approaches.  I would prefer
that the working group pick one to standardize.

=20

Thanks,

=20

John

=20

Sent from my iPhone

=20

=20

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com]

> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 9:24 AM

> To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); John E Drake

> Cc: CCAMP

> Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

>=20

> Hi Pietro,

>=20

> You may not like John's tone, but emotions aside, what he keeps saying

> repeatedly in this discussion does make perfect sense to me.

> 1) The point of CP signaling is to convey information pertinent to

> network element provisioning in most efficient way. It does seem =
stupid

> to signal numerous one hop hierarchical LSPs (when it is sufficient a

> single end-to-end round of signaling to do the job), create and =
support

> numerous extra CP states, take care of all restart implications, etc.

> just to be consistent with RFC_XYZ written 10 years ago;

> 2) Besides, you can think of multi-stage label as identification of a

> new type of network resources controlled by GMPLS. Even the GMPLS god-

> fathers would agree that they never meant to limit GMPLS to control =
the

> resources described in early CCAMP RFCs.

> 3) Finally, no one ever said that you cannot orchestrate multi-stage

> provisioning through the hierarchy of LSPs if you choose to do so.

>=20

> Cheers,

> Igor

>=20

> -----Original Message-----

> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf

> Of GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)

> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 10:43 AM

> To: John E Drake

> Cc: CCAMP

> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

>=20

> Hello John,

>=20

> 1) You have forwarded to the CCamp mailing list a number of private

> mails without asking the permission to the involved people. This is

> impolite and unprofessional.

>=20

> 2) You are creating spam on the mailing list forwarding four threads

> that are each hundreds of lines long and very complicated to follow =
for

> people not involved in the discussion since the beginning. Moreover,

> this happened after a discussion from scratch was already started in

> the mailing list.

>=20

> 3) You moved from a technical discussion to arrogant and deliberate

> personal offenses not supported by any sound technical motivation as

> reported in your mails and snipped below:

>=20

> "This shows a complete lack of understanding of hierarchical LSP,

> multi-stage labels, and GMPLS in general.  It is so bad it is not even

> wrong."

>=20

> " It might be more precise to say I reviewed your slides and found

> them, shall we say, lacking."

>=20

> We hope that from now on the discussion can be continued from a purely

> technical point of view.

>=20

> Pietro, Sergio and Daniele

>=20

> =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

> Pietro Vittorio Grandi

> Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution

> Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)

> Tel: +39 039 686 4930

> Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com

> =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

> Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.

> Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute. =
That's

> relativity.

> (A. Einstein)

>=20

> -----Original Message-----

> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf

> Of John E Drake

> Sent: marted=A8=AC 28 giugno 2011 14.13

> To: CCAMP

> Subject: [CCAMP] FW: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

>=20

>=20

>=20

> Sent from my iPhone

>=20

>=20

> -----Original Message-----

> From: John E Drake

> Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 3:56 PM

> To: 'Fatai Zhang'; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)

> Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan

> Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -

> Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham; =
BELOTTI,

> SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli

> Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

>=20

> Fatai,

>=20

> Comments inline.

>=20

> Thanks,

>=20

> John

>=20

> Sent from my iPhone

>=20

>=20

> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: Fatai Zhang [mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com]

> > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 9:45 AM

> > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); John E Drake

> > Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan

> > Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -

> > Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham;

> BELOTTI,

> > SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli

> > Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

> >

> > Hi John,

> >

> > I guess that you did not review our slides carefully.

>=20

> JD:  I will let this pass.

>=20

> >

> > You just see the only advantage for the corner case (i.e., establish

> > multi-layers LSP concurrently), but you did not see the issues that

> we

> > described in the slides and the issues that Jonathan mentioned (eg.,

> > OAM/protection issues).

>=20

> JD:  I'm sorry that I didn't provide enough context.  I don't think =
the

> one-hop hierarchical LSP case, w/ or w/o multi-stage labels is either

> interesting or common and it was not the case to which I was =
addressing

> my comments.  Rather, I was describing two ways of establishing multi-

> hop multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.  As far as I can tell the issues

> Jonathan raised in this context are red herrings rather than blue

> whales.  Furthermore, regardless of which of the two approaches I

> described is used, the issues, if any, would be exactly the same.

>=20

> >

> > In addition, we have repeated many times that LSP hierarchy must be

> > used in many cases, even though we have multi-stage label approach.

> > E.g., an ODU0 connection request from A to E through B, C and D, but

> B,

> > C and  D (or one of them ) can not support ODU0 switching, the HO

> ODUj

> > (ODU1 or ODU2 or ODU3 or ODU4) LSP must be created between B and D

> > through LSP hierarchy. This example is very simple and there are =
lots

> > of transforms for this example to use LSP hierarchy.

>=20

> JD:  Please see above.  I completely agree with you and was simply

> pointing out that multi-stage labels can be used to improve wrt =
latency

> and control plane overhead, the establishment of ODUj LSPs within

> multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.

>=20

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Fatai

> >

> > Thanks

> > ----- Original Message -----

> > From: "John E Drake" <jdrake@juniper.net>

> > To: "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)"

> > <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>

> > Cc: "Daniele Ceccarelli" <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>; "Rajan

> Rao"

> > <rrao@infinera.com>; "Fatai Zhang" <zhangfatai@huawei.com>; "Khuzema

> > Pithewan" <kpithewan@infinera.com>; "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)"

> > <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>; "Ashok Kunjidhapatham"

> > <akunjidhapatham@infinera.com>; "Diego Caviglia"

> > <diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>; "Steve Balls"

> > <Steve.Balls@metaswitch.com>; "Ciena - Lyndon Ong" =
<LyOng@Ciena.com>;

> > <fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; "NSN - Cyril Margaria"

> <cyril.margaria@nsn.com>;

> > "Li Dan" <huawei.danli@huawei.com>; "Jonathan Hardwick"

> > <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>; "Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler"

> > <jonathan.sadler@tellabs.com>; "Vallinayakam Somasundaram"

> > <valli@juniper.net>

> > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 7:21 PM

> > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

> >

> >

> > Pietro,

> >

> > If we are talking about the establishment of LSPs using single-stage

> > muxing, I think the only thing necessary is a new label format, =
which

> I

> > believe is a bit map of tributary slots; i.e., LSP establishment

> using

> > single-stage muxing is done.

> >

> > We have never had a situation such as multi-stage muxing before so =
we

> > are breaking new ground and we have two choices, either use LSP

> > hierarchy to establish multiple single-stage sub-layer LSPs

> explicitly

> > and sequentially, or include the sub-layer information within the

> Path

> > message for the ODUj such that the sub-layers are established

> > implicitly and concurrently with the establishment of the ODUj.

> >

> > Either will work, but it seems to me that the latter is more

> efficient

> > wrt latency and control plane overhead.  The one thing I do not want

> to

> > do is to say that both are supported.  If we can agree that we will

> > only use one method to establish multi-stage LSPs, then when a node

> > advertises multi-stage support in routing, we know how signaling is

> to

> > be accomplished.

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

> > John

> >

> > Sent from my iPhone

> >

> >

> > > -----Original Message-----

> > > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)

> > > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]

> > > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 1:31 AM

> > > To: John E Drake

> > > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;

> > > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;

> Steve

> > > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril

> Margaria;

> > > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam

> > > Somasundaram; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)

> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

> > >

> > > John,

> > >

> > > It seems as though you consider on the same level something (H-LSP

> > > concept) already used in CP managing multi-layer with something

> that

> > > does not exist at all.

> > > Operators are used to managed their CP network together with NMS.

> > > Most of the NMS work per-layer. The utilization of a multi-stage

> > label

> > > would force NMS to work in another manner with heavy =
implementation

> > > consequences.

> > >

> > > We should also keep in mind that multi-stage label approach can

> only

> > be

> > > used in some cases (not for all the one-hop multi-stage muxing) =
and

> > it

> > > will bring some management issues. Please see the slides that =
Fatai

> > > sent a few days ago.

> > >

> > > For both these reasons the "optional" condition of multi-stage

> label

> > > concept is absolutely mandatory for us.

> > >

> > > Pietro, Sergio, Fatai & Daniele

> > >

> > > =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

> > > Pietro Vittorio Grandi

> > > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution

> > > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)

> > > Tel: +39 039 686 4930

> > > Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com

> > > =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

> > > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an

> hour.

> > > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.

> > That's

> > > relativity.

> > > (A. Einstein)

> > >

> > >

> > > -----Original Message-----

> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]

> > > Sent: sabato 18 giugno 2011 2.40

> > > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)

> > > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;

> > > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;

> Steve

> > > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril

> Margaria;

> > > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam

> > > Somasundaram

> > > Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

> > >

> > > Pietro,

> > >

> > > We can certainly say that a node that advertises multistage

> switching

> > > support in routing MUST support multistage signaling.

> > >

> > > As I said before, using mutiple RSVP exchanges between the same =
LSP

> > > endpoints to establish intermediate switching stages seems ill-

> > > considered and forcing everyone to support two ways of signaling

> > > multistage LSPs seems like a really Bad Idea.

> > >

> > > John

> > >

> > > Sent from my iPhone

> > >

> > > On Jun 17, 2011, at 2:55 AM, "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO

> > > VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-

> > > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>>

> wrote:

> > >

> > > Hello John,

> > >

> > > I understand that you think that the new switching type in routing

> > > should also convey implicitly the information that a

> > > multi-stage label is supported.

> > >

> > > I do not agree with this statement.

> > > Implementations using H-LSPs plus single stage labels are possible

> > (and

> > > already standard) and the fact the a node supports

> > > the new switching type is not enough to clearly tell what is

> > supported.

> > >

> > > Pietro

> > >

> > > ________________________________

> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]

> > > Sent: venerd=A8=AC 17 giugno 2011 2.09

> > > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); Daniele Ceccarelli;

> > > Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO =
(SERGIO);

> > > Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena -

> Lyndon

> > > Ong'; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - =
Cyril

> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan

> > Sadler';

> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram

> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

> > >

> > > Pietro,

> > >

> > > Actually we are already covered.   Our advertisements use a

> different

> > > switching type, which is also carried in signaling.  This means

> that

> > we

> > > get to define the signaling used for this switching type, and I am

> > > proposing that we use multistage.

> > >

> > > Thanks,

> > >

> > > John

> > >

> > > Sent from my iPhone

> > >

> > > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)

> > > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]

> > > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 6:52 AM

> > > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang;

> Khuzema

> > > Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego

> > > Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';

> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril

> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan

> > Sadler';

> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram

> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

> > >

> > > Hi all,

> > >

> > > I  agree with Daniele' statement.

> > >

> > > in my mind this means that single stage label support is implicit

> and

> > > that

> > > multi-stage labels should not be used unless a machine explicitly

> > > declares the support.

> > >

> > > Pietro

> > >

> > >

> > > =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

> > > Pietro Vittorio Grandi

> > > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution

> > > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)

> > > Tel: +39 039 686 4930

> > > Mail: <mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>

> > > pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-

> > > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>

> > > =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

> > > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an

> hour.

> > > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.

> > That's

> > > relativity.

> > > (A. Einstein)

> > >

> > > ________________________________

> > > From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]

> > > Sent: gioved=A8=AC 16 giugno 2011 15.48

> > > To: John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;

> BELOTTI,

> > > SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO

> > (PIETRO

> > > VITTORIO); Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';

> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril

> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan

> > Sadler';

> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram

> > > Subject: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

> > >

> > > Starting a new thread as we're now moving to signaling...

> > >

> > > Assuming we still have not decided whether we're going to support

> > > single stage only, multi stage only or both of them i believe that

> as

> > > per OSPF we need to consider backward compatibility.

> > >

> > > An implementation RFC4328 based (that we've explicitly been told

> not

> > to

> > > deprecate) is single stage based, so in case of multi stage only =
or

> > > multi-stage + single stage we should be able to cover backward

> > > compatibility issues somehow.

> > >

> > > BR

> > > Daniele

> > >

> > > ________________________________

> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]

> > > Sent: gioved=A8=AC 16 giugno 2011 8.53

> > > To: Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;

> > > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham

> > > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;

> > 'Steve

> > > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';

> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril

> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan

> > Sadler';

> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram

> > > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for

> multi-

> > > stage Vs Single Stage labels)

> > > Rajan,

> > >

> > > I didn't want to allow interoperability options.  I much preferred

> to

> > > say that we do signaling in one way only, using multistage labels.

> > > These are also needed for signaling within  hierarchical LSPs.

> > >

> > > Thanks,

> > >

> > > John

> > >

> > > Sent from my iPhone

> > >

> > > From: Rajan Rao [mailto:rrao@infinera.com]

> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 10:46 PM

> > > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; John E Drake; Khuzema

> Pithewan;

> > > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham

> > > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;

> > 'Steve

> > > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';

> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril

> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan

> > Sadler';

> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram

> > > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for

> multi-

> > > stage Vs Single Stage labels)

> > >

> > > Hi,

> > >

> > > While we are making updates, let us discuss support required in

> link

> > > advertisement for single/multi-stage label options:

> > >

> > > Given that there is interest in both multi-stage label and single-

> > stage

> > > with H-LSPs, we should consider inclusion of a FLAG to indicate

> what

> > > the link is capable of.  This will address some of the issues we

> have

> > > discussed in the past relating to path computation involving NEs

> with

> > > different capabilities (inter-op).

> > >

> > > Thanks

> > > Rajan

> _______________________________________________

> CCAMP mailing list

> CCAMP@ietf.org

> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

> _______________________________________________

> CCAMP mailing list

> CCAMP@ietf.org

> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

_______________________________________________

CCAMP mailing list

CCAMP@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DZH-CN link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple style=3D'text-justify-trim:punctuation'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>Hi =
John,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Agree with Igor that let emotions aside if there was some =
improper wording. Let</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>=A1=AF</span><span lang=3DEN-US>s =
discuss tech.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Could you clarify your point 1) a little more? Here is a =
simple example shown below. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>Could you explain how to create =
ODU0 connection from Node A to Node E by multi-stage labels approach? =
What information (e.g., traffic parameters, labels) should be carried in =
the Path or Resv message? What action should be taken for Node C when =
receiving the Path or Resv message?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US><img width=3D926 height=3D226 =
id=3D"Picture_x0020_1" =
src=3D"cid:image001.png@01CC367C.CE2249E0"></span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Fatai<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>-----Original Message-----<br>From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org =
[mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of John E Drake<br>Sent: =
2011</span><span style=3D'font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5'>=C4=EA</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US>6</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5'>=D4=C2</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US>29</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5'>=C8=D5</span><span lang=3DEN-US> =
6:12<br>To: Igor Bryskin; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO =
VITTORIO)<br>Cc: CCAMP<br>Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs =
multi stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Igor,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>I have a few clarifications.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>1)&nbsp; Multi-stage labels =
apply equally well to multi-hop hierarchical LSPs. (The is the point =
some people do not seem to understand.)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>2)&nbsp; It is incorrect to say =
that LSP hierarchy, as is, just works for the establishment of a =
hierarchical LSP that supports multi-stage switching.&nbsp; This =
involves a nested set of hierarchical LSPs, the containing hierarchical =
LSP and the set of sub-layer LSPs which provide context for intermediate =
stage labels, between the same two endpoints.&nbsp; This is a new =
construct and there are almost certainly details to be worked =
out.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>3)&nbsp; I don't think we should standardize both =
approaches.&nbsp; I would prefer that the working group pick one to =
standardize.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>John<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; -----Original =
Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; From: Igor Bryskin =
[mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Sent: Tuesday, June 28, =
2011 9:24 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); John E =
Drake<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Cc: CCAMP<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Subject: RE: RSVP OTN =
single stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Hi =
Pietro,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; You may not like John's =
tone, but emotions aside, what he keeps saying<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; repeatedly in this =
discussion does make perfect sense to me.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; 1) The point of CP =
signaling is to convey information pertinent to<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; network element =
provisioning in most efficient way. It does seem =
stupid<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; to signal numerous one hop hierarchical LSPs (when it =
is sufficient a<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; single end-to-end round of signaling to do the job), =
create and support<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; numerous extra CP states, take care of all restart =
implications, etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; just to be consistent with RFC_XYZ written 10 years =
ago;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; 2) Besides, you can think of multi-stage label as =
identification of a<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; new type of network resources controlled by GMPLS. =
Even the GMPLS god-<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; fathers would agree that they never meant to limit =
GMPLS to control the<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; resources described in early CCAMP =
RFCs.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; 3) Finally, no one ever said that you cannot =
orchestrate multi-stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; provisioning through the =
hierarchy of LSPs if you choose to do so.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Igor<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; -----Original =
Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org =
[mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Of GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO =
(PIETRO VITTORIO)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 10:43 =
AM<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
To: John E Drake<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Cc: CCAMP<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP =
OTN single stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Hello =
John,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; 1) You have forwarded to =
the CCamp mailing list a number of private<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; mails without asking the =
permission to the involved people. This is<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; impolite and =
unprofessional.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; 2) You are creating spam on =
the mailing list forwarding four threads<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; that are each hundreds of =
lines long and very complicated to follow for<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; people not involved in the =
discussion since the beginning. Moreover,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; this happened after a =
discussion from scratch was already started in<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; the mailing =
list.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; 3) You moved from a =
technical discussion to arrogant and deliberate<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; personal offenses not =
supported by any sound technical motivation as<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; reported in your mails and =
snipped below:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &quot;This shows a complete =
lack of understanding of hierarchical LSP,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; multi-stage labels, and =
GMPLS in general.&nbsp; It is so bad it is not =
even<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; wrong.&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &quot; It might be more =
precise to say I reviewed your slides and found<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; them, shall we say, =
lacking.&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; We hope that from now on =
the discussion can be continued from a purely<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; technical point of =
view.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Pietro, Sergio and =
Daniele<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Pietro Vittorio =
Grandi<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Terrestrial Optics Portfolio =
Evolution<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate =
(Italy)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Tel: +39 039 686 4930<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Mail: =
pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Put your hand on a =
hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an =
hour.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like =
a&nbsp; minute. That's<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
relativity.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; (A. Einstein)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; -----Original =
Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org =
[mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Of John E =
Drake<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Sent: marted</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>=A8=AC</span><span lang=3DEN-US> 28 =
giugno 2011 14.13<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; To: CCAMP<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Subject: [CCAMP] FW: RSVP =
OTN single stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Sent from my =
iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; -----Original =
Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; From: John E Drake<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Sent: Thursday, June 23, =
2011 3:56 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; To: 'Fatai Zhang'; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO =
VITTORIO)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan =
Sadler; Jonathan<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; =
fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; =
Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham; BELOTTI,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema =
Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Subject: RE: RSVP OTN =
single stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
Fatai,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Comments =
inline.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
John<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Sent from my =
iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; -----Original =
Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; From: Fatai Zhang =
[mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, June =
23, 2011 9:45 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); =
John E Drake<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan =
Sadler; Jonathan<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; =
fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Lyndon Ong; Steve =
Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
BELOTTI,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; =
Daniele Ceccarelli<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi =
stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Hi =
John,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; I guess that you did =
not review our slides carefully.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; JD:&nbsp; I will let this =
pass.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; You just see the only advantage for the corner =
case (i.e., establish<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; multi-layers LSP concurrently), but you did not =
see the issues that<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; we<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; described in the slides and the issues that =
Jonathan mentioned (eg.,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; OAM/protection =
issues).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; JD:&nbsp; I'm sorry that I =
didn't provide enough context.&nbsp; I don't think =
the<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
one-hop hierarchical LSP case, w/ or w/o multi-stage labels is =
either<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; interesting or common and it was not the case to which =
I was addressing<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; my comments.&nbsp; Rather, I was describing two ways =
of establishing multi-<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; hop multi-stage =
hierarchical LSPs.&nbsp; As far as I can tell the =
issues<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Jonathan raised in this context are red herrings =
rather than blue<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; whales.&nbsp; Furthermore, regardless of which of the =
two approaches I<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; described is used, the issues, if any, would be =
exactly the same.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; In addition, we have repeated many times that LSP =
hierarchy must be<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; used in many cases, even though we have =
multi-stage label approach.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; E.g., an ODU0 =
connection request from A to E through B, C and D, =
but<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
B,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt; C and&nbsp; D (or one of them ) can not support ODU0 switching, the =
HO<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
ODUj<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; (ODU1 or ODU2 or ODU3 or ODU4) LSP must be =
created between B and D<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; through LSP hierarchy. =
This example is very simple and there are lots<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; of transforms for this =
example to use LSP hierarchy.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; JD:&nbsp; Please see =
above.&nbsp; I completely agree with you and was =
simply<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; pointing out that multi-stage labels can be used to =
improve wrt latency<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; and control plane overhead, the establishment of ODUj =
LSPs within<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
Fatai<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; ----- Original Message =
-----<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; From: &quot;John E Drake&quot; =
&lt;jdrake@juniper.net&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; To: &quot;GRANDI, =
PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&lt;pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Cc: &quot;Daniele =
Ceccarelli&quot; &lt;daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com&gt;; =
&quot;Rajan<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Rao&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&lt;rrao@infinera.com&gt;; &quot;Fatai Zhang&quot; =
&lt;zhangfatai@huawei.com&gt;; &quot;Khuzema<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Pithewan&quot; =
&lt;kpithewan@infinera.com&gt;; &quot;BELOTTI, SERGIO =
(SERGIO)&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &lt;sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com&gt;; =
&quot;Ashok Kunjidhapatham&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&lt;akunjidhapatham@infinera.com&gt;; &quot;Diego =
Caviglia&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &lt;diego.caviglia@ericsson.com&gt;; &quot;Steve =
Balls&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &lt;Steve.Balls@metaswitch.com&gt;; &quot;Ciena - =
Lyndon Ong&quot; &lt;LyOng@Ciena.com&gt;;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&lt;fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&gt;; &quot;NSN - Cyril =
Margaria&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&lt;cyril.margaria@nsn.com&gt;;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &quot;Li Dan&quot; =
&lt;huawei.danli@huawei.com&gt;; &quot;Jonathan =
Hardwick&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &lt;Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com&gt;; =
&quot;Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&lt;jonathan.sadler@tellabs.com&gt;; &quot;Vallinayakam =
Somasundaram&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &lt;valli@juniper.net&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, June =
23, 2011 7:21 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi =
stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Pietro,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; If we are talking about the establishment of LSPs =
using single-stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; muxing, I think the only thing necessary is a new =
label format, which<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; I<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; believe is a bit map of tributary slots; i.e., =
LSP establishment<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; using<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; single-stage muxing is =
done.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; We have never had a =
situation such as multi-stage muxing before so =
we<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt; are breaking new ground and we have two choices, either use =
LSP<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt; hierarchy to establish multiple single-stage sub-layer =
LSPs<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; explicitly<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; and sequentially, or =
include the sub-layer information within the<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
Path<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; message for the ODUj such that the sub-layers are =
established<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; implicitly and concurrently with the =
establishment of the ODUj.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Either will work, but it seems to me that the =
latter is more<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; efficient<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; wrt latency and =
control plane overhead.&nbsp; The one thing I do not =
want<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; to<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; do is to say that both are supported.&nbsp; If we =
can agree that we will<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; only use one method to =
establish multi-stage LSPs, then when a node<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; advertises multi-stage =
support in routing, we know how signaling is<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; to<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; be =
accomplished.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
John<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Sent from my =
iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; -----Original =
Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO =
VITTORIO)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
[mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]<o:p></o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Monday, =
June 20, 2011 1:31 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: John E Drake<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: Daniele =
Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema =
Pithewan;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok =
Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; =
fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
Margaria;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - =
Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Somasundaram; =
GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: RE: RSVP =
OTN single stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; John,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; It seems as though you consider on the same =
level something (H-LSP<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; concept) already =
used in CP managing multi-layer with something<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
that<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; does not exist at =
all.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Operators are used to managed their CP =
network together with NMS.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Most of the NMS =
work per-layer. The utilization of a multi-stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
label<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; would force NMS to work in another manner =
with heavy implementation<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
consequences.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; We should also =
keep in mind that multi-stage label approach can<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
only<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; be<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; used in some =
cases (not for all the one-hop multi-stage muxing) =
and<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt; it<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; will bring some management issues. Please =
see the slides that Fatai<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; sent a few days =
ago.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; For both these =
reasons the &quot;optional&quot; condition of =
multi-stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; label<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; concept is =
absolutely mandatory for us.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Pietro, Sergio, Fatai &amp; =
Daniele<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Pietro =
Vittorio Grandi<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Terrestrial Optics Portfolio =
Evolution<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate =
(Italy)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Tel: +39 039 686 =
4930<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Mail: =
pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Put your =
hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like =
an<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
hour.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it =
seems like a&nbsp; minute.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
That's<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; relativity.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; (A. =
Einstein)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; -----Original =
Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; From: John E Drake =
[mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: sabato 18 =
giugno 2011 2.40<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO =
VITTORIO)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai =
Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; BELOTTI, SERGIO =
(SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; =
fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
Margaria;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - =
Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
Somasundaram<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi =
stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
Pietro,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; We can certainly =
say that a node that advertises multistage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
switching<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; support in routing MUST support multistage =
signaling.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; As I said before, =
using mutiple RSVP exchanges between the same =
LSP<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt; &gt; endpoints to establish intermediate switching stages seems =
ill-<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; considered and forcing everyone to support =
two ways of signaling<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; multistage LSPs seems like a really Bad =
Idea.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
John<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent from my =
iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; On Jun 17, 2011, =
at 2:55 AM, &quot;GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO =
(PIETRO<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; VITTORIO)&quot; =
&lt;pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
lucent.com&lt;mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com&gt;&gt;<o:=
p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Hello =
John,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; I understand that =
you think that the new switching type in routing<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; should also =
convey implicitly the information that a<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; multi-stage label =
is supported.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; I do not agree =
with this statement.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Implementations using H-LSPs plus single =
stage labels are possible<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
(and<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; already standard) and the fact the a node =
supports<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; the new switching type is not enough to =
clearly tell what is<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; supported.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Pietro<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; From: John E =
Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: =
venerd</span><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New"'>=A8=AC</span><span lang=3DEN-US> 17 giugno 2011 =
2.09<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO =
VITTORIO); Daniele Ceccarelli;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Rajan Rao; Fatai =
Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO =
(SERGIO);<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia; 'Steve =
Balls'; 'Ciena -<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Lyndon<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Ong'; =
fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&lt;mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&gt;; 'NSN - =
Cyril<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; =
'Tellabs - Jonathan<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Sadler';<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Vallinayakam =
Somasundaram<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi =
stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
Pietro,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Actually we are =
already covered.&nbsp;&nbsp; Our advertisements use =
a<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
different<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; switching type, which is also carried in =
signaling.&nbsp; This means<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
that<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; we<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; get to define the =
signaling used for this switching type, and I am<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; proposing that we =
use multistage.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
John<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent from my =
iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; From: GRANDI, =
PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
[mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]<o:p></o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, =
June 16, 2011 6:52 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: Daniele Ceccarelli; John E Drake; Rajan =
Rao; Fatai Zhang;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Khuzema<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Pithewan; =
BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; =
Diego<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon =
Ong';<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&lt;mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&gt;; 'NSN - =
Cyril<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; =
'Tellabs - Jonathan<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Sadler';<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Vallinayakam =
Somasundaram<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi =
stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Hi =
all,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; I&nbsp; agree =
with Daniele' statement.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; in my mind this means that single stage =
label support is implicit<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; and<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
that<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; multi-stage labels should not be used unless =
a machine explicitly<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; declares the =
support.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
Pietro<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Pietro =
Vittorio Grandi<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Terrestrial Optics Portfolio =
Evolution<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate =
(Italy)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Tel: +39 039 686 =
4930<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Mail: =
&lt;mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com&gt;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
lucent.com&lt;mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com&gt;<o:p></=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Put your =
hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like =
an<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
hour.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it =
seems like a&nbsp; minute.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
That's<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; relativity.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; (A. =
Einstein)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; From: Daniele =
Ceccarelli =
[mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: =
gioved</span><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New"'>=A8=AC</span><span lang=3DEN-US> 16 giugno 2011 =
15.48<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; =
Khuzema Pithewan;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; BELOTTI,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; SERGIO (SERGIO); =
Ashok Kunjidhapatham; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
(PIETRO<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; VITTORIO); Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; =
'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&lt;mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&gt;; 'NSN - =
Cyril<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; =
'Tellabs - Jonathan<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Sadler';<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Vallinayakam =
Somasundaram<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi =
stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Starting a new =
thread as we're now moving to signaling...<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Assuming we still have not decided whether =
we're going to support<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; single stage =
only, multi stage only or both of them i believe =
that<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; as<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; per OSPF we need to consider backward =
compatibility.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; An implementation =
RFC4328 based (that we've explicitly been told<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; not<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
to<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt; &gt; deprecate) is single stage based, so in case of multi stage =
only or<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; multi-stage + single stage we should be able =
to cover backward<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; compatibility issues =
somehow.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
BR<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt; &gt; Daniele<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; From: John E =
Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: =
gioved</span><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New"'>=A8=AC</span><span lang=3DEN-US> 16 giugno 2011 =
8.53<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai =
Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; 'BELOTTI, SERGIO =
(SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: 'GRANDI, =
PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego =
Caviglia;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; 'Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Balls'; 'Ciena - =
Lyndon Ong';<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&lt;mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&gt;; 'NSN - =
Cyril<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; =
'Tellabs - Jonathan<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Sadler';<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Vallinayakam =
Somasundaram<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF =
draft (support for<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; multi-<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; stage Vs Single =
Stage labels)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Rajan,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; I didn't want to allow interoperability =
options.&nbsp; I much preferred<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; to<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; say that we do =
signaling in one way only, using multistage =
labels.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; These are also needed for signaling =
within&nbsp; hierarchical LSPs.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; John<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; From: Rajan Rao =
[mailto:rrao@infinera.com]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Wednesday, =
June 15, 2011 10:46 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: Daniele =
Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; John E Drake; Khuzema<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
Pithewan;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok =
Kunjidhapatham<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO =
VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
'Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon =
Ong';<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&lt;mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&gt;; 'NSN - =
Cyril<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; =
'Tellabs - Jonathan<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Sadler';<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Vallinayakam =
Somasundaram<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF =
draft (support for<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; multi-<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; stage Vs Single =
Stage labels)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; While we are making updates, let us discuss =
support required in<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; link<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; advertisement for =
single/multi-stage label options:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Given that there is interest in both =
multi-stage label and single-<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; with H-LSPs, we should consider inclusion of =
a FLAG to indicate<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; what<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; the link is =
capable of.&nbsp; This will address some of the issues =
we<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
have<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; discussed in the past relating to path =
computation involving NEs<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
with<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; different capabilities =
(inter-op).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Rajan<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; CCAMP mailing =
list<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; CCAMP@ietf.org<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; CCAMP mailing =
list<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; CCAMP@ietf.org<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></=
span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>CCAMP mailing =
list<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>CCAMP@ietf.org<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp<o:p></o:p></span=
></p></div></body></html>=

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From sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com  Wed Jun 29 02:45:39 2011
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From: "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)" <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 11:45:26 +0200
Thread-Topic: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: [CCAMP] R: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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John,

The mail is co-signed, and there is no need to be a list moderator trying t=
o bring back the discussion in a polite way.

I would avoid trying to justify a clear bad behavior mentioning mails writt=
en by other guy.
When you say "This email is implicitly from you as well" is only your assum=
ption without any objectiveness .
Instead your arrogant comment without any technical analysis of our slides =
is an "explicit" insult to us since the slides were made together with Fata=
i.

Said that we are happy to accept your apology, and come back only to techni=
cal discussion.

Best Regards

Sergio


SERGIO BELOTTI

ALCATEL-LUCENT
Terrestrial System Architect
Optics Portfolio Evolution

via Trento 30 , Vimercate(MI)  Italy
T: +39 0396863033
Sergio.Belotti@alcatel-lucent.com



-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
Inviato: mercoled=EC 29 giugno 2011 0.25
A: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
Cc: CCAMP; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Daniele Ceccarelli
Oggetto: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

Pietro,

Although I don't recall your appointment as list moderator, my apologies.

Forwarding the individual emails rather than synthesizing their contents wa=
s strictly an expedient but given that the private mailing list is a close =
approximation of the list of subscribers to the CCAMP mailing list, I didn'=
t see the harm.

On the other topic, my emails to Fatai were preceded by the following from =
him:

"Hi John,

You did not review our slides, so we think that you did not understand the =
spirit of multi-stage label approach correctly.

Thanks

Fatai"

This email is implicitly from you as well, and if you look up 'arrogance' i=
n the dictionary, you might see this note.

Thanks,

John

Sent from my iPhone


> -----Original Message-----
> From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 7:43 AM
> To: John E Drake
> Cc: CCAMP; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Daniele Ceccarelli; GRANDI, PIETRO
> VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
> Hello John,
>
> 1) You have forwarded to the CCamp mailing list a number of private
> mails without asking the permission to the involved people. This is
> impolite and unprofessional.
>
> 2) You are creating spam on the mailing list forwarding four threads
> that are each hundreds of lines long and very complicated to follow for
> people not involved in the discussion since the beginning. Moreover,
> this happened after a discussion from scratch was already started in
> the mailing list.
>
> 3) You moved from a technical discussion to arrogant and deliberate
> personal offenses not supported by any sound technical motivation as
> reported in your mails and snipped below:
>
> "This shows a complete lack of understanding of hierarchical LSP,
> multi-stage labels, and GMPLS in general.  It is so bad it is not even
> wrong."
>
> " It might be more precise to say I reviewed your slides and found
> them, shall we say, lacking."
>
> We hope that from now on the discussion can be continued from a purely
> technical point of view.
>
> Pietro, Sergio and Daniele
>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
> Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute. That's
> relativity.
> (A. Einstein)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of John E Drake
> Sent: marted=EC 28 giugno 2011 14.13
> To: CCAMP
> Subject: [CCAMP] FW: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John E Drake
> Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 3:56 PM
> To: 'Fatai Zhang'; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan
> Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -
> Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham; BELOTTI,
> SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli
> Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
> Fatai,
>
> Comments inline.
>
> Thanks,
>
> John
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Fatai Zhang [mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 9:45 AM
> > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); John E Drake
> > Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan
> > Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -
> > Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham;
> BELOTTI,
> > SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli
> > Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > Hi John,
> >
> > I guess that you did not review our slides carefully.
>
> JD:  I will let this pass.
>
> >
> > You just see the only advantage for the corner case (i.e., establish
> > multi-layers LSP concurrently), but you did not see the issues that
> we
> > described in the slides and the issues that Jonathan mentioned (eg.,
> > OAM/protection issues).
>
> JD:  I'm sorry that I didn't provide enough context.  I don't think the
> one-hop hierarchical LSP case, w/ or w/o multi-stage labels is either
> interesting or common and it was not the case to which I was addressing
> my comments.  Rather, I was describing two ways of establishing multi-
> hop multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.  As far as I can tell the issues
> Jonathan raised in this context are red herrings rather than blue
> whales.  Furthermore, regardless of which of the two approaches I
> described is used, the issues, if any, would be exactly the same.
>
> >
> > In addition, we have repeated many times that LSP hierarchy must be
> > used in many cases, even though we have multi-stage label approach.
> > E.g., an ODU0 connection request from A to E through B, C and D, but
> B,
> > C and  D (or one of them ) can not support ODU0 switching, the HO
> ODUj
> > (ODU1 or ODU2 or ODU3 or ODU4) LSP must be created between B and D
> > through LSP hierarchy. This example is very simple and there are lots
> > of transforms for this example to use LSP hierarchy.
>
> JD:  Please see above.  I completely agree with you and was simply
> pointing out that multi-stage labels can be used to improve wrt latency
> and control plane overhead, the establishment of ODUj LSPs within
> multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Fatai
> >
> > Thanks
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John E Drake" <jdrake@juniper.net>
> > To: "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)"
> > <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > Cc: "Daniele Ceccarelli" <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>; "Rajan
> Rao"
> > <rrao@infinera.com>; "Fatai Zhang" <zhangfatai@huawei.com>; "Khuzema
> > Pithewan" <kpithewan@infinera.com>; "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)"
> > <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>; "Ashok Kunjidhapatham"
> > <akunjidhapatham@infinera.com>; "Diego Caviglia"
> > <diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>; "Steve Balls"
> > <Steve.Balls@metaswitch.com>; "Ciena - Lyndon Ong" <LyOng@Ciena.com>;
> > <fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; "NSN - Cyril Margaria"
> <cyril.margaria@nsn.com>;
> > "Li Dan" <huawei.danli@huawei.com>; "Jonathan Hardwick"
> > <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>; "Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler"
> > <jonathan.sadler@tellabs.com>; "Vallinayakam Somasundaram"
> > <valli@juniper.net>
> > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 7:21 PM
> > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> >
> > Pietro,
> >
> > If we are talking about the establishment of LSPs using single-stage
> > muxing, I think the only thing necessary is a new label format, which
> I
> > believe is a bit map of tributary slots; i.e., LSP establishment
> using
> > single-stage muxing is done.
> >
> > We have never had a situation such as multi-stage muxing before so we
> > are breaking new ground and we have two choices, either use LSP
> > hierarchy to establish multiple single-stage sub-layer LSPs
> explicitly
> > and sequentially, or include the sub-layer information within the
> Path
> > message for the ODUj such that the sub-layers are established
> > implicitly and concurrently with the establishment of the ODUj.
> >
> > Either will work, but it seems to me that the latter is more
> efficient
> > wrt latency and control plane overhead.  The one thing I do not want
> to
> > do is to say that both are supported.  If we can agree that we will
> > only use one method to establish multi-stage LSPs, then when a node
> > advertises multi-stage support in routing, we know how signaling is
> to
> > be accomplished.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > John
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 1:31 AM
> > > To: John E Drake
> > > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;
> Steve
> > > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril
> Margaria;
> > > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam
> > > Somasundaram; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > John,
> > >
> > > It seems as though you consider on the same level something (H-LSP
> > > concept) already used in CP managing multi-layer with something
> that
> > > does not exist at all.
> > > Operators are used to managed their CP network together with NMS.
> > > Most of the NMS work per-layer. The utilization of a multi-stage
> > label
> > > would force NMS to work in another manner with heavy implementation
> > > consequences.
> > >
> > > We should also keep in mind that multi-stage label approach can
> only
> > be
> > > used in some cases (not for all the one-hop multi-stage muxing) and
> > it
> > > will bring some management issues. Please see the slides that Fatai
> > > sent a few days ago.
> > >
> > > For both these reasons the "optional" condition of multi-stage
> label
> > > concept is absolutely mandatory for us.
> > >
> > > Pietro, Sergio, Fatai & Daniele
> > >
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> > > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> > > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> > > Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> > > Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an
> hour.
> > > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.
> > That's
> > > relativity.
> > > (A. Einstein)
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > > Sent: sabato 18 giugno 2011 2.40
> > > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;
> Steve
> > > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril
> Margaria;
> > > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam
> > > Somasundaram
> > > Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Pietro,
> > >
> > > We can certainly say that a node that advertises multistage
> switching
> > > support in routing MUST support multistage signaling.
> > >
> > > As I said before, using mutiple RSVP exchanges between the same LSP
> > > endpoints to establish intermediate switching stages seems ill-
> > > considered and forcing everyone to support two ways of signaling
> > > multistage LSPs seems like a really Bad Idea.
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > On Jun 17, 2011, at 2:55 AM, "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO
> > > VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-
> > > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello John,
> > >
> > > I understand that you think that the new switching type in routing
> > > should also convey implicitly the information that a
> > > multi-stage label is supported.
> > >
> > > I do not agree with this statement.
> > > Implementations using H-LSPs plus single stage labels are possible
> > (and
> > > already standard) and the fact the a node supports
> > > the new switching type is not enough to clearly tell what is
> > supported.
> > >
> > > Pietro
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > > Sent: venerd=EC 17 giugno 2011 2.09
> > > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); Daniele Ceccarelli;
> > > Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO);
> > > Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena -
> Lyndon
> > > Ong'; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Pietro,
> > >
> > > Actually we are already covered.   Our advertisements use a
> different
> > > switching type, which is also carried in signaling.  This means
> that
> > we
> > > get to define the signaling used for this switching type, and I am
> > > proposing that we use multistage.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 6:52 AM
> > > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang;
> Khuzema
> > > Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego
> > > Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I  agree with Daniele' statement.
> > >
> > > in my mind this means that single stage label support is implicit
> and
> > > that
> > > multi-stage labels should not be used unless a machine explicitly
> > > declares the support.
> > >
> > > Pietro
> > >
> > >
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> > > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> > > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> > > Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> > > Mail: <mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > > pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-
> > > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an
> hour.
> > > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.
> > That's
> > > relativity.
> > > (A. Einstein)
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]
> > > Sent: gioved=EC 16 giugno 2011 15.48
> > > To: John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> BELOTTI,
> > > SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO
> > (PIETRO
> > > VITTORIO); Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Starting a new thread as we're now moving to signaling...
> > >
> > > Assuming we still have not decided whether we're going to support
> > > single stage only, multi stage only or both of them i believe that
> as
> > > per OSPF we need to consider backward compatibility.
> > >
> > > An implementation RFC4328 based (that we've explicitly been told
> not
> > to
> > > deprecate) is single stage based, so in case of multi stage only or
> > > multi-stage + single stage we should be able to cover backward
> > > compatibility issues somehow.
> > >
> > > BR
> > > Daniele
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > > Sent: gioved=EC 16 giugno 2011 8.53
> > > To: Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham
> > > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;
> > 'Steve
> > > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for
> multi-
> > > stage Vs Single Stage labels)
> > > Rajan,
> > >
> > > I didn't want to allow interoperability options.  I much preferred
> to
> > > say that we do signaling in one way only, using multistage labels.
> > > These are also needed for signaling within  hierarchical LSPs.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > From: Rajan Rao [mailto:rrao@infinera.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 10:46 PM
> > > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; John E Drake; Khuzema
> Pithewan;
> > > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham
> > > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;
> > 'Steve
> > > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for
> multi-
> > > stage Vs Single Stage labels)
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > While we are making updates, let us discuss support required in
> link
> > > advertisement for single/multi-stage label options:
> > >
> > > Given that there is interest in both multi-stage label and single-
> > stage
> > > with H-LSPs, we should consider inclusion of a FLAG to indicate
> what
> > > the link is capable of.  This will address some of the issues we
> have
> > > discussed in the past relating to path computation involving NEs
> with
> > > different capabilities (inter-op).
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Rajan
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

From IBryskin@advaoptical.com  Wed Jun 29 06:18:05 2011
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From: Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>
To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>, "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
Thread-Topic: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 13:17:47 +0000
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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John,

Please, see my comments in-line, we do have some disagreements.=20
Igor

-----Original Message-----
From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]=20
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 6:12 PM
To: Igor Bryskin; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
Cc: CCAMP
Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

Igor,

I have a few clarifications.

1)  Multi-stage labels apply equally well to multi-hop hierarchical LSPs. (=
The is the point some people do not seem to understand.)

IB>> Sorry to admit that I am one of these people. I disagree with you on t=
his. For one thing, I do not like the idea of induced multi-hop H_LSPs. H_L=
SPs IMO should be pre-planned and provisioned in different time frame than =
connections they carry. Besides, multi-hop H-LSPs are links incongruent wit=
h links supported by OTUs, they will surely benefit from their own OAM. If =
I understand Infinera folks correctly, the idea of multi-stage provisioning=
 is to avoid single-hop H-LSPs, and I agree with them.=20

2)  It is incorrect to say that LSP hierarchy, as is, just works for the es=
tablishment of a hierarchical LSP that supports multi-stage switching.  Thi=
s involves a nested set of hierarchical LSPs, the containing hierarchical L=
SP and the set of sub-layer LSPs which provide context for intermediate sta=
ge labels, between the same two endpoints.  This is a new construct and the=
re are almost certainly details to be worked out.

IB>> But this could be viewed as a build-up on top of the existing machiner=
y. At any rate, as I said, I don't like the idea of induced H-LSPs in princ=
iple, however, if the H-LSPs are pre-configured, I don't see why the existi=
ng LSP hierarchy won't work as it is.

3)  I don't think we should standardize both approaches.  I would prefer th=
at the working group pick one to standardize.

IB>> I don't see a reason why not to do both,=20

Igor


Sent from my iPhone


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 9:24 AM
> To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); John E Drake
> Cc: CCAMP
> Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
> Hi Pietro,
>
> You may not like John's tone, but emotions aside, what he keeps saying
> repeatedly in this discussion does make perfect sense to me.
> 1) The point of CP signaling is to convey information pertinent to
> network element provisioning in most efficient way. It does seem stupid
> to signal numerous one hop hierarchical LSPs (when it is sufficient a
> single end-to-end round of signaling to do the job), create and support
> numerous extra CP states, take care of all restart implications, etc.
> just to be consistent with RFC_XYZ written 10 years ago;
> 2) Besides, you can think of multi-stage label as identification of a
> new type of network resources controlled by GMPLS. Even the GMPLS god-
> fathers would agree that they never meant to limit GMPLS to control the
> resources described in early CCAMP RFCs.
> 3) Finally, no one ever said that you cannot orchestrate multi-stage
> provisioning through the hierarchy of LSPs if you choose to do so.
>
> Cheers,
> Igor
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 10:43 AM
> To: John E Drake
> Cc: CCAMP
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
> Hello John,
>
> 1) You have forwarded to the CCamp mailing list a number of private
> mails without asking the permission to the involved people. This is
> impolite and unprofessional.
>
> 2) You are creating spam on the mailing list forwarding four threads
> that are each hundreds of lines long and very complicated to follow for
> people not involved in the discussion since the beginning. Moreover,
> this happened after a discussion from scratch was already started in
> the mailing list.
>
> 3) You moved from a technical discussion to arrogant and deliberate
> personal offenses not supported by any sound technical motivation as
> reported in your mails and snipped below:
>
> "This shows a complete lack of understanding of hierarchical LSP,
> multi-stage labels, and GMPLS in general.  It is so bad it is not even
> wrong."
>
> " It might be more precise to say I reviewed your slides and found
> them, shall we say, lacking."
>
> We hope that from now on the discussion can be continued from a purely
> technical point of view.
>
> Pietro, Sergio and Daniele
>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
> Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute. That's
> relativity.
> (A. Einstein)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of John E Drake
> Sent: marted=EC 28 giugno 2011 14.13
> To: CCAMP
> Subject: [CCAMP] FW: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John E Drake
> Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 3:56 PM
> To: 'Fatai Zhang'; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan
> Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -
> Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham; BELOTTI,
> SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli
> Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
> Fatai,
>
> Comments inline.
>
> Thanks,
>
> John
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Fatai Zhang [mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 9:45 AM
> > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); John E Drake
> > Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan
> > Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -
> > Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham;
> BELOTTI,
> > SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli
> > Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > Hi John,
> >
> > I guess that you did not review our slides carefully.
>
> JD:  I will let this pass.
>
> >
> > You just see the only advantage for the corner case (i.e., establish
> > multi-layers LSP concurrently), but you did not see the issues that
> we
> > described in the slides and the issues that Jonathan mentioned (eg.,
> > OAM/protection issues).
>
> JD:  I'm sorry that I didn't provide enough context.  I don't think the
> one-hop hierarchical LSP case, w/ or w/o multi-stage labels is either
> interesting or common and it was not the case to which I was addressing
> my comments.  Rather, I was describing two ways of establishing multi-
> hop multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.  As far as I can tell the issues
> Jonathan raised in this context are red herrings rather than blue
> whales.  Furthermore, regardless of which of the two approaches I
> described is used, the issues, if any, would be exactly the same.
>
> >
> > In addition, we have repeated many times that LSP hierarchy must be
> > used in many cases, even though we have multi-stage label approach.
> > E.g., an ODU0 connection request from A to E through B, C and D, but
> B,
> > C and  D (or one of them ) can not support ODU0 switching, the HO
> ODUj
> > (ODU1 or ODU2 or ODU3 or ODU4) LSP must be created between B and D
> > through LSP hierarchy. This example is very simple and there are lots
> > of transforms for this example to use LSP hierarchy.
>
> JD:  Please see above.  I completely agree with you and was simply
> pointing out that multi-stage labels can be used to improve wrt latency
> and control plane overhead, the establishment of ODUj LSPs within
> multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Fatai
> >
> > Thanks
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John E Drake" <jdrake@juniper.net>
> > To: "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)"
> > <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > Cc: "Daniele Ceccarelli" <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>; "Rajan
> Rao"
> > <rrao@infinera.com>; "Fatai Zhang" <zhangfatai@huawei.com>; "Khuzema
> > Pithewan" <kpithewan@infinera.com>; "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)"
> > <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>; "Ashok Kunjidhapatham"
> > <akunjidhapatham@infinera.com>; "Diego Caviglia"
> > <diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>; "Steve Balls"
> > <Steve.Balls@metaswitch.com>; "Ciena - Lyndon Ong" <LyOng@Ciena.com>;
> > <fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; "NSN - Cyril Margaria"
> <cyril.margaria@nsn.com>;
> > "Li Dan" <huawei.danli@huawei.com>; "Jonathan Hardwick"
> > <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>; "Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler"
> > <jonathan.sadler@tellabs.com>; "Vallinayakam Somasundaram"
> > <valli@juniper.net>
> > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 7:21 PM
> > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> >
> > Pietro,
> >
> > If we are talking about the establishment of LSPs using single-stage
> > muxing, I think the only thing necessary is a new label format, which
> I
> > believe is a bit map of tributary slots; i.e., LSP establishment
> using
> > single-stage muxing is done.
> >
> > We have never had a situation such as multi-stage muxing before so we
> > are breaking new ground and we have two choices, either use LSP
> > hierarchy to establish multiple single-stage sub-layer LSPs
> explicitly
> > and sequentially, or include the sub-layer information within the
> Path
> > message for the ODUj such that the sub-layers are established
> > implicitly and concurrently with the establishment of the ODUj.
> >
> > Either will work, but it seems to me that the latter is more
> efficient
> > wrt latency and control plane overhead.  The one thing I do not want
> to
> > do is to say that both are supported.  If we can agree that we will
> > only use one method to establish multi-stage LSPs, then when a node
> > advertises multi-stage support in routing, we know how signaling is
> to
> > be accomplished.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > John
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 1:31 AM
> > > To: John E Drake
> > > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;
> Steve
> > > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril
> Margaria;
> > > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam
> > > Somasundaram; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > John,
> > >
> > > It seems as though you consider on the same level something (H-LSP
> > > concept) already used in CP managing multi-layer with something
> that
> > > does not exist at all.
> > > Operators are used to managed their CP network together with NMS.
> > > Most of the NMS work per-layer. The utilization of a multi-stage
> > label
> > > would force NMS to work in another manner with heavy implementation
> > > consequences.
> > >
> > > We should also keep in mind that multi-stage label approach can
> only
> > be
> > > used in some cases (not for all the one-hop multi-stage muxing) and
> > it
> > > will bring some management issues. Please see the slides that Fatai
> > > sent a few days ago.
> > >
> > > For both these reasons the "optional" condition of multi-stage
> label
> > > concept is absolutely mandatory for us.
> > >
> > > Pietro, Sergio, Fatai & Daniele
> > >
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> > > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> > > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> > > Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> > > Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an
> hour.
> > > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.
> > That's
> > > relativity.
> > > (A. Einstein)
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > > Sent: sabato 18 giugno 2011 2.40
> > > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;
> Steve
> > > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril
> Margaria;
> > > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam
> > > Somasundaram
> > > Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Pietro,
> > >
> > > We can certainly say that a node that advertises multistage
> switching
> > > support in routing MUST support multistage signaling.
> > >
> > > As I said before, using mutiple RSVP exchanges between the same LSP
> > > endpoints to establish intermediate switching stages seems ill-
> > > considered and forcing everyone to support two ways of signaling
> > > multistage LSPs seems like a really Bad Idea.
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > On Jun 17, 2011, at 2:55 AM, "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO
> > > VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-
> > > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello John,
> > >
> > > I understand that you think that the new switching type in routing
> > > should also convey implicitly the information that a
> > > multi-stage label is supported.
> > >
> > > I do not agree with this statement.
> > > Implementations using H-LSPs plus single stage labels are possible
> > (and
> > > already standard) and the fact the a node supports
> > > the new switching type is not enough to clearly tell what is
> > supported.
> > >
> > > Pietro
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > > Sent: venerd=EC 17 giugno 2011 2.09
> > > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); Daniele Ceccarelli;
> > > Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO);
> > > Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena -
> Lyndon
> > > Ong'; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Pietro,
> > >
> > > Actually we are already covered.   Our advertisements use a
> different
> > > switching type, which is also carried in signaling.  This means
> that
> > we
> > > get to define the signaling used for this switching type, and I am
> > > proposing that we use multistage.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 6:52 AM
> > > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang;
> Khuzema
> > > Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego
> > > Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I  agree with Daniele' statement.
> > >
> > > in my mind this means that single stage label support is implicit
> and
> > > that
> > > multi-stage labels should not be used unless a machine explicitly
> > > declares the support.
> > >
> > > Pietro
> > >
> > >
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> > > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> > > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> > > Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> > > Mail: <mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > > pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-
> > > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an
> hour.
> > > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.
> > That's
> > > relativity.
> > > (A. Einstein)
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]
> > > Sent: gioved=EC 16 giugno 2011 15.48
> > > To: John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> BELOTTI,
> > > SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO
> > (PIETRO
> > > VITTORIO); Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Starting a new thread as we're now moving to signaling...
> > >
> > > Assuming we still have not decided whether we're going to support
> > > single stage only, multi stage only or both of them i believe that
> as
> > > per OSPF we need to consider backward compatibility.
> > >
> > > An implementation RFC4328 based (that we've explicitly been told
> not
> > to
> > > deprecate) is single stage based, so in case of multi stage only or
> > > multi-stage + single stage we should be able to cover backward
> > > compatibility issues somehow.
> > >
> > > BR
> > > Daniele
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > > Sent: gioved=EC 16 giugno 2011 8.53
> > > To: Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham
> > > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;
> > 'Steve
> > > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for
> multi-
> > > stage Vs Single Stage labels)
> > > Rajan,
> > >
> > > I didn't want to allow interoperability options.  I much preferred
> to
> > > say that we do signaling in one way only, using multistage labels.
> > > These are also needed for signaling within  hierarchical LSPs.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > From: Rajan Rao [mailto:rrao@infinera.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 10:46 PM
> > > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; John E Drake; Khuzema
> Pithewan;
> > > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham
> > > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;
> > 'Steve
> > > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for
> multi-
> > > stage Vs Single Stage labels)
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > While we are making updates, let us discuss support required in
> link
> > > advertisement for single/multi-stage label options:
> > >
> > > Given that there is interest in both multi-stage label and single-
> > stage
> > > with H-LSPs, we should consider inclusion of a FLAG to indicate
> what
> > > the link is capable of.  This will address some of the issues we
> have
> > > discussed in the past relating to path computation involving NEs
> with
> > > different capabilities (inter-op).
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Rajan
> _______________________________________________
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> _______________________________________________
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> CCAMP@ietf.org
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From vishwas.ietf@gmail.com  Wed Jun 29 07:23:26 2011
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Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 07:23:22 -0700
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From: Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com>
To: fu.xihua@zte.com.cn
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [OSPF] draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01
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Hi Fu,

If you see the document, it is trying to give an overview of what needs to
be done and the architecture of the same. I think that is what you have
stated.

Thanks,
Vishwas
2011/6/28 <fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>

>
> Hi Vishwas,
>
> Thank you for the information.
> I know those drafts cover loss or jitter.  For the latency portions, they
> are same.
>
> Xihua
>
>
>
>   *Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com>*
>
> 2011-06-29 =CF=C2=CE=E7 02:06
>    =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB
>  fu.xihua@zte.com.cn
>  =B3=AD=CB=CD
> Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, Acee Lindem <acee.lindem@ericsson.com>,
> OSPF WG List <ospf@ietf.org>, CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>,
> ccamp-bounces@ietf.org
> =D6=F7=CC=E2
> Re: [CCAMP] [OSPF] draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01
>
>
>
>
> Hi Fu,
>
> There are some basic issues in the documents, especially regarding loss a=
nd
> jitter. I had written a document addressing the same, but never got into
> actually posting it.
>
> I have attached the same here. Do let me know what you feel about the sam=
e?
>
> Thanks,
> Vishwas
> 2011/6/27 <*fu.xihua@zte.com.cn* <fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>>
>
> Hi All,
>
> I read through the draft-giacalone. For the portion of latency, there is =
no
> any essential difference between both of drafts.
> In the latest version, they added a bit in sub-TLV and gave some
> consideration for the advertisment control. This has aslo been described =
in
> our draft.
> Control plane always combines routing constraints with pre-defined
> priorities, e.g., SRLG diversity, latency, cost, and bandwidth.
> But I don't understand why we need to add *Residual*and *Available*bandwi=
dth
> in draft-giacalone. Why don't you use RFC4203 and RFC3630 to calculate th=
em?
>
> We will restructure draft-wang into a framework and some protocol specifi=
c
> parts (i.e., OSPF-TE and RSVP-TE) to address the issues raised in the
> framework.
> Based on suggestions from Lou and Acee, we agree that the OSPF protions
> from our draft is combined with draft-giacalone. OSPF extension will be
> developed in draft-giacalone.
> The framework document will mainly focus on the requirement of latency
> application and how to use latency information.
> I prefer framework document is done in CCAMP. But it is related to RTGWG
> and MPLS.
> Before we define the ability to report latency, it must be clear what we
> are reporting. So different implementations will report the same thing.
> Based on the discussion with Adrian by email, we will give some descripti=
on
> about what we are gong to report in this framework document.
> The rsvp-te document in CCAMP will give some solution for latency TE (e.g=
.,
> accumulation and verification of the delay).
>
> Xihua Fu
>
>   *Lou Berger <**lberger@labn.net* <lberger@labn.net>*>*
> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB:  *ccamp-bounces@ietf.org* <ccamp-bounces@ietf.org>
>
> 2011-06-22 =CF=C2=CE=E7 11:16
>
>   =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB
> Acee Lindem <*acee.lindem@ericsson.com* <acee.lindem@ericsson.com>>
> =B3=AD=CB=CD
> CCAMP <*ccamp@ietf.org* <ccamp@ietf.org>>, OSPF WG List <*ospf@ietf.org*<=
ospf@ietf.org>
> >
> =D6=F7=CC=E2
> Re: [CCAMP] [OSPF]   draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01
>
>
>
>
>
> OSPF WG for the OSPF extensions seems very reasonable to me ;-)
>
> I still hope that the OSPF portions of
> draft-wang-ccamp-latency-te-metric can be combined with
> draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path given that both drafts state that
> they are addressing essentially the same high-level problem.
>
> Lou
>
> On 6/22/2011 8:40 AM, Acee Lindem wrote:
> > Hi John,
> > As it stands, the draft contains mainly OSPF TE encodings and
> considerations. Hence, my inclination would be to keep it in the OSPF WG.
> However, I'm willing to listen to other proposals.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Acee
> > On Jun 21, 2011, at 11:10 PM, John E Drake wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I am a bit confused.  I thought the proper home for this work would
> either be the rtg wg or the mpls wg.  I thought it was presented to the O=
SPF
> wg for information only.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> John
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: *ccamp-bounces@ietf.org* <ccamp-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:*
> ccamp-bounces@ietf.org* <ccamp-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf
> >>> Of Alia Atlas
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 6:45 PM
> >>> To: Acee Lindem
> >>> Cc: Spencer Giacalone; CCAMP; OSPF WG List
> >>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [OSPF] draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01
> >>>
> >>> Hi Acee,
> >>>
> >>> I do agree that we should explicitly document this in the draft & wor=
k
> >>> on better names for the sub-TLVs that might be confused.
> >>> I also agree that we need to give the decision explicit consideration=
;
> >>> to give this the exposure necessary and consideration for
> >>> applications was why we had this draft discussed in rtgwg as well as
> >>> ospf.
> >>>
> >>> In addition to the obvious uses for RSVP-TE, another potential
> >>> application is the idea of a path-weighted ECMP, where traffic is
> >>> split to the different next-hops based upon the total path bandwidths
> >>> out those next-hops.  This is a pure IP application (LDP follows
> >>> of course) and I'd prefer not to lose track of those options when
> >>> considering the RSVP-TE applications.
> >>>
> >>> Alia
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 9:06 PM, Acee Lindem <*
> acee.lindem@ericsson.com* <acee.lindem@ericsson.com>>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> Hi Alia,
> >>>> I guess I agree with Lou - heretofore, we've done TE requirements in
> >>> the MPLS/CCAMP WGs and the TE encodings in the IGP WGs. I think we
> >>> should give the decision explicit consideration before we branch off
> >>> and do TE for application X independently. Additionally, if we do
> >>> decide to split this off independently, an E-mail to the list saying
> >>> there is no overlap is not sufficient to move forward. At a minimum, =
I
> >>> believe we need to:
> >>>>
> >>>>   1. Explicitly document this alternate applicability and
> >>> relationship to existing TE in the draft.
> >>>>   2. Determine whether any sub-TLVs can be shared (my opinion was
> >>> consistent with yours that there are not due to differences in
> >>> requirements and measurement).
> >>>>   3. Assure the sub-TLVs are appropriately named to avoid confusion
> >>> between the latency applications.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>> Acee
> >>>> On Jun 21, 2011, at 2:08 PM, Alia Atlas wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hi Acee,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> John Drake and I did take a look at the draft mentioned in CCAMP.
> >>>  It
> >>>>> had a large number of requirements and extensions to
> >>>>> a number of different protocols.  There is one sub-TLV (latency)
> >>> that
> >>>>> appears the same - but the expectations
> >>>>> as to averaging vs. instantaneous were different.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The OSPF TE Express Path work is fairly self-contained and doesn't
> >>>>> specify in exact detail how the information
> >>>>> for the sub-TLVs is measured or obtained.  I think it could be used
> >>>>> for multiple purposes.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Alia
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 12:49 PM, Acee Lindem
> >>> <*acee.lindem@ericsson.com* <acee.lindem@ericsson.com>> wrote:
> >>>>>> Hi Spencer (CCAMP copied as well),
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Here is a link for everyone's convenience:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> *http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01.tx=
t
> * <http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01.txt>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> At IETF 80, there were questions about overlap with other CCAMP
> >>> drafts containing interface delay metrics and proposals for new TE su=
b-
> >>> TLVs. Have you or your co-authors, done looked at how your draft is
> >>> positioned versus these other drafts? While these applications have
> >>> differing goals, the CCAMP/OSPF chairs requested that this analysis b=
e
> >>> done.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> *http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-wang-ccamp-latency-te-metric-03.txt*=
<http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-wang-ccamp-latency-te-metric-03.txt>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> We would like to avoid having exactly the same information
> >>> advertised in two different link Sub-TLVs. I'd hope we could agree on
> >>> common units.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>> Acee
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Jun 20, 2011, at 4:30 PM, Spencer Giacalone wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hello everyone,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> As you may have noticed, another version of the OSPF TE Express
> >>> Path
> >>>>>>> draft has been posted. We made a number of changes based on
> >>> feedback
> >>>>>>> from IETF 80. We invite your comments and suggestions. The main
> >>>>>>> changes include:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -We have consolidated some sub-TLVs for efficiency. There are no
> >>>>>>> longer nominal and anomalous sub-TLVs for delay and loss. The
> >>>>>>> functionality for signaling steady state verses abnormal
> >>> performance
> >>>>>>> for these parameters have been moved into two sub-TLVs (where we
> >>> used
> >>>>>>> to have four).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -In order to advertise both normal and abnormal network
> >>> performance
> >>>>>>> state in consolidated sub-TLVs, a bit, called the anomalous (A)
> >>> but
> >>>>>>> has been added to certain sub-TLVs. The A bit is set when the
> >>> measured
> >>>>>>> value of a parameter exceeds a configured maximum threshold. The =
A
> >>> bit
> >>>>>>> is cleared when the measured value falls below its configured
> >>> reuse
> >>>>>>> threshold. If the A bit is clear, the sub-TLV represents steady
> >>> state
> >>>>>>> link performance.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -We changed the encodings of certain variables from floating poin=
t
> >>> to
> >>>>>>> fixed point. This change permits the addition of the A bit (when
> >>>>>>> necessary), it allows bit-space reservations to be made, and it
> >>>>>>> permits a common TLV format across the bulk of the TLVs in the
> >>> draft.
> >>>>>>> In addition, the new encodings address concerns about granularity
> >>> and
> >>>>>>> interoperability.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -We added sub-TLVs for Residual Bandwidth and Available Bandwidth=
.
> >>>>>>> Residual bandwidth is defined as the Maximum Bandwidth [RFC3630]
> >>> minus
> >>>>>>> the bandwidth currently allocated to RSVP-TE LSPs. Available
> >>> bandwidth
> >>>>>>> is defined to be residual bandwidth minus the measured bandwidth
> >>> used
> >>>>>>> for the actual forwarding of non-RSVP-TE LSP packets.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -Various other modifications were made across the draft. These
> >>>>>>> include, but are not limited to, the abstract, the introduction,
> >>> the
> >>>>>>> thresholding specifications, and a number of field descriptions.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -Last, but certainly not least, Stefano Providi has joined the
> >>> draft
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> We look forward to hearing your comments and concerns.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Spencer, Alia, Dave, John, Stefano
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> OSPF mailing list
> >>>>>>> *OSPF@ietf.org* <OSPF@ietf.org>
> >>>>>>> *https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf*<https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/ospf>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> OSPF mailing list
> >>>>>> *OSPF@ietf.org* <OSPF@ietf.org>
> >>>>>> *https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf*<https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/ospf>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> CCAMP mailing list
> >>> *CCAMP@ietf.org* <CCAMP@ietf.org>
> >>> *https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp*<https://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/listinfo/ccamp>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OSPF mailing list
> > *OSPF@ietf.org* <OSPF@ietf.org>
> > *https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf*<https://www.ietf.org/mailm=
an/listinfo/ospf>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list*
> **CCAMP@ietf.org* <CCAMP@ietf.org>*
> **https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp*<https://www.ietf.org/mailm=
an/listinfo/ccamp>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list*
> **CCAMP@ietf.org* <CCAMP@ietf.org>*
> **https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp*<https://www.ietf.org/mailm=
an/listinfo/ccamp>
>
>
>

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<div>Hi Fu,</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>If you see the document, it is trying to give an overview of what need=
s to be done and the architecture of the same. I think that is what you hav=
e stated.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div>Vishwas<br></div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">2011/6/28 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn">fu.xihua@zte.com.cn</a>&gt;</span><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid"><br><font face=3D"sans-serif" si=
ze=3D"2">Hi Vishwas,</font> <br><br><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"2">Th=
ank you for the information. </font><br>
<font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"2">I know those drafts cover loss or jitt=
er. &nbsp;For the latency portions, they are same.</font> <br><br><font fac=
e=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"2">Xihua</font> <br><br><br><br>
<table width=3D"100%">
<tbody>
<tr valign=3D"top">
<td width=3D"35%"><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"1"><b>Vishwas Manral &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:vishwas.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">vishwas.ietf@=
gmail.com</a>&gt;</b> </font>
<p><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"1">2011-06-29 =CF=C2=CE=E7 02:06</font=
> </p>
<td width=3D"64%">
<table width=3D"100%">
<tbody>
<tr valign=3D"top">
<td>
<div align=3D"right"><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"1">=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=
=CB</font></div>
<td>
<div class=3D"im"><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"1"><a href=3D"mailto:fu=
.xihua@zte.com.cn" target=3D"_blank">fu.xihua@zte.com.cn</a></font> </div>
<tr valign=3D"top">
<td>
<div align=3D"right"><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"1">=B3=AD=CB=CD</fon=
t></div>
<td><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"1">Lou Berger &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:l=
berger@labn.net" target=3D"_blank">lberger@labn.net</a>&gt;, Acee Lindem &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:acee.lindem@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">acee.lindem=
@ericsson.com</a>&gt;, OSPF WG List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ospf@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">ospf@ietf.org</a>&gt;, CCAMP &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp@ie=
tf.org" target=3D"_blank">ccamp@ietf.org</a>&gt;, <a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-b=
ounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a></font>=20
<tr valign=3D"top">
<td>
<div align=3D"right"><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"1">=D6=F7=CC=E2</fon=
t></div>
<td><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"1">Re: [CCAMP] [OSPF] draft-giacalone=
-ospf-te-express-path-01</font></td></td></tr></td></td></tr></td></td></tr=
></tbody></table><br>
<table>
<tbody>
<tr valign=3D"top">
<td>
<td></td></td></tr></tbody></table><br></td>
<td><p></p></td></td></tr></tbody></table><br><br><br><font face=3D"sans-se=
rif" size=3D"3">Hi Fu,</font> <br><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"3">&nbs=
p;</font> <br><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"3">There are some basic iss=
ues in the documents, especially regarding loss and jitter. I had written a=
 document addressing the same, but never got into actually posting it.</fon=
t> <br>
<font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"3">&nbsp;</font> <br><font face=3D"sans-s=
erif" size=3D"3">I have attached the same here. Do let me know what you fee=
l about the same?</font> <br><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"3">&nbsp;</f=
ont> <br><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"3">Thanks,</font> <br>
<font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"3">Vishwas</font> <br><font face=3D"sans-=
serif" size=3D"3">2011/6/27 &lt;</font><a href=3D"mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.c=
n" target=3D"_blank"><font face=3D"sans-serif" color=3D"blue" size=3D"3"><u=
>fu.xihua@zte.com.cn</u></font></a><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"3">&gt=
;</font> <br>
<font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"2"><br>Hi All,</font><font face=3D"sans-s=
erif" size=3D"3"> <br></font><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"2"><br>I rea=
d through the draft-giacalone. For the portion of latency, there is no any =
essential difference between both of drafts. <br>
In the latest version, they added a bit in sub-TLV and gave some considerat=
ion for the advertisment control. This has aslo been described in our draft=
.</font><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"3"> </font><font face=3D"sans-ser=
if" size=3D"2"><br>
Control plane always combines routing constraints with pre-defined prioriti=
es, e.g., SRLG diversity, latency, cost, and bandwidth. <br>But I don&#39;t=
 understand why we need to add <i>Residual</i>and <i>Available</i>bandwidth=
 in draft-giacalone. Why don&#39;t you use RFC4203 and RFC3630 to calculate=
 them?</font><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"3"> <br>
</font><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"2"><br>We will restructure draft-w=
ang into a framework and some protocol specific parts (i.e., OSPF-TE and RS=
VP-TE) to address the issues raised in the framework. <br>Based on suggesti=
ons from Lou and Acee, we agree that the OSPF protions from our draft is co=
mbined with draft-giacalone. OSPF extension will be developed in draft-giac=
alone.</font><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"3"> </font><font face=3D"san=
s-serif" size=3D"2"><br>
The framework document will mainly focus on the requirement of latency appl=
ication and how to use latency information. &nbsp;</font><font face=3D"sans=
-serif" size=3D"3"> </font><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"2"><br>I prefe=
r framework document is done in CCAMP. But it is related to RTGWG and MPLS.=
</font><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"3"> </font><font face=3D"sans-seri=
f" size=3D"2"><br>
Before we define the ability to report latency, it must be clear what we ar=
e reporting. So different implementations will report the same thing. <br>B=
ased on the discussion with Adrian by email, we will give some description =
about what we are gong to report in this framework document.</font><font fa=
ce=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"3"> </font><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"2"><=
br>
The rsvp-te document in CCAMP will give some solution for latency TE (e.g.,=
 accumulation and verification of the delay). </font><font face=3D"sans-ser=
if" size=3D"3"><br></font><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"2"><br>Xihua Fu=
</font><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"3"> <br>
<br></font>
<table width=3D"100%">
<tbody>
<tr valign=3D"top">
<td width=3D"32%"><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"1"><b>Lou Berger &lt;</=
b></font><a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net" target=3D"_blank"><font face=
=3D"sans-serif" color=3D"blue" size=3D"1"><b><u>lberger@labn.net</u></b></f=
ont></a><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"1"><b>&gt;</b> <br>
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: &nbsp;</font><a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank"><font face=3D"sans-serif" color=3D"blue" size=3D"1"><u>cc=
amp-bounces@ietf.org</u></font></a><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"3"> </=
font>
<p><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"1">2011-06-22 =CF=C2=CE=E7 11:16</font=
><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"3"> </font></p>
<td width=3D"66%"><br>
<table width=3D"100%">
<tbody>
<tr valign=3D"top">
<td width=3D"11%">
<div align=3D"right"><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"1">=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=
=CB</font></div>
<td width=3D"88%"><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"1">Acee Lindem &lt;</fo=
nt><a href=3D"mailto:acee.lindem@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank"><font face=
=3D"sans-serif" color=3D"blue" size=3D"1"><u>acee.lindem@ericsson.com</u></=
font></a><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"1">&gt;</font><font face=3D"sans=
-serif" size=3D"3"> </font>
<tr valign=3D"top">
<td>
<div align=3D"right"><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"1">=B3=AD=CB=CD</fon=
t></div>
<td><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"1">CCAMP &lt;</font><a href=3D"mailto=
:ccamp@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><font face=3D"sans-serif" color=3D"blue"=
 size=3D"1"><u>ccamp@ietf.org</u></font></a><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=
=3D"1">&gt;, OSPF WG List &lt;</font><a href=3D"mailto:ospf@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank"><font face=3D"sans-serif" color=3D"blue" size=3D"1"><u>ospf@ie=
tf.org</u></font></a><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"1">&gt;</font><font =
face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"3"> </font>
<tr valign=3D"top">
<td>
<div align=3D"right"><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"1">=D6=F7=CC=E2</fon=
t></div>
<td><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"1">Re: [CCAMP] [OSPF] &nbsp; draft-gi=
acalone-ospf-te-express-path-01</font></td></td></tr></td></td></tr></td></=
td></tr></tbody></table><br><br>
<table width=3D"100%">
<tbody>
<tr valign=3D"top">
<td width=3D"50%">
<td width=3D"50%"></td></td></tr></tbody></table><br>
<td width=3D"1%"></td></td>
<td><p></p></td></td></tr></tbody></table>
<p><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"3"><br><br></font><font size=3D"2"><tt=
><br>OSPF WG for the OSPF extensions seems very reasonable to me ;-)<br><br=
>I still hope that the OSPF portions of<br>draft-wang-ccamp-latency-te-metr=
ic can be combined with<br>
draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path given that both drafts state that<br>t=
hey are addressing essentially the same high-level problem.<br><br>Lou<br><=
br>On 6/22/2011 8:40 AM, Acee Lindem wrote:<br>&gt; Hi John, <br>&gt; As it=
 stands, the draft contains mainly OSPF TE encodings and considerations. He=
nce, my inclination would be to keep it in the OSPF WG. However, I&#39;m wi=
lling to listen to other proposals. <br>
&gt; <br>&gt; Thanks,<br>&gt; Acee<br>&gt; On Jun 21, 2011, at 11:10 PM, Jo=
hn E Drake wrote:<br>&gt; <br>&gt;&gt; Hi,<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; I am a b=
it confused. &nbsp;I thought the proper home for this work would either be =
the rtg wg or the mpls wg. &nbsp;I thought it was presented to the OSPF wg =
for information only.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; John <br>&gt;&gt;<br>&=
gt;&gt; Sent from my iPhone<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; -----Or=
iginal Message-----<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; From: </tt></font><a href=3D"mailto:cca=
mp-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><font color=3D"blue" size=3D"2"><tt>=
<u>ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</u></tt></font></a><font size=3D"2"><tt> [mailto:=
</tt></font><a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><fo=
nt color=3D"blue" size=3D"2"><tt><u>ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</u></tt></font><=
/a><font size=3D"2"><tt>] On Behalf<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Of Alia Atlas<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 6:4=
5 PM<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; To: Acee Lindem<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; Cc: Spencer Giacalone;=
 CCAMP; OSPF WG List<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [OSPF] draft-giac=
alone-ospf-te-express-path-01<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Acee,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; I do =
agree that we should explicitly document this in the draft &amp; work<br>&g=
t;&gt;&gt; on better names for the sub-TLVs that might be confused.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; I also agree that we need to give the decision explicit consid=
eration;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; to give this the exposure necessary and considerat=
ion for<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; applications was why we had this draft discussed in=
 rtgwg as well as<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; ospf.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; In addition to the obvio=
us uses for RSVP-TE, another potential<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; application is the i=
dea of a path-weighted ECMP, where traffic is<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; split to the =
different next-hops based upon the total path bandwidths<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; out those next-hops. &nbsp;This is a pure IP application (LDP =
follows<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; of course) and I&#39;d prefer not to lose track of =
those options when<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; considering the RSVP-TE applications.<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; Alia<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; On Tue, J=
un 21, 2011 at 9:06 PM, Acee Lindem &lt;</tt></font><a href=3D"mailto:acee.=
lindem@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank"><font color=3D"blue" size=3D"2"><tt>=
<u>acee.lindem@ericsson.com</u></tt></font></a><font size=3D"2"><tt>&gt;<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Alia,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I gues=
s I agree with Lou - heretofore, we&#39;ve done TE requirements in<br>&gt;&=
gt;&gt; the MPLS/CCAMP WGs and the TE encodings in the IGP WGs. I think we<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; should give the decision explicit consideration before we bran=
ch off<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; and do TE for application X independently. Additiona=
lly, if we do<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; decide to split this off independently, an E-=
mail to the list saying<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; there is no overlap is not sufficient to move forward. At a mi=
nimum, I<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; believe we need to:<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt; &nbsp; 1. Explicitly document this alternate applicability and<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt; relationship to existing TE in the draft.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
&nbsp; 2. Determine whether any sub-TLVs can be shared (my opinion was<br>&=
gt;&gt;&gt; consistent with yours that there are not due to differences in<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; requirements and measurement).<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp; 3. A=
ssure the sub-TLVs are appropriately named to avoid confusion<br>&gt;&gt;&g=
t; between the latency applications.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
; Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Acee<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Jun 21, 2011, at 2:08 PM, Alia=
 Atlas wrote:<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Acee,<br>&gt;&=
gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; John Drake and I did take a look at=
 the draft mentioned in CCAMP.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;It<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; had a large number of require=
ments and extensions to<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; a number of different proto=
cols. &nbsp;There is one sub-TLV (latency)<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; that<br>&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt; appears the same - but the expectations<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; as to averaging vs. instantaneous were different.<br>&=
gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The OSPF TE Express Path work i=
s fairly self-contained and doesn&#39;t<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; specify in =
exact detail how the information<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; for the sub-TLVs is measured or obtained. &nbsp;I thin=
k it could be used<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; for multiple purposes.<br>&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Alia<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 12:49 PM, Acee Lindem<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;</tt></font><a href=3D"mailto:acee.lindem@ericsson.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank"><font color=3D"blue" size=3D"2"><tt><u>acee.lindem@ericsson=
.com</u></tt></font></a><font size=3D"2"><tt>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt; Hi Spencer (CCAMP copied as well),<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Here is a link for eve=
ryone&#39;s convenience:<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt; </tt></font><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-giacalone-ospf-te=
-express-path-01.txt" target=3D"_blank"><font color=3D"blue" size=3D"2"><tt=
><u>http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01.txt</u><=
/tt></font></a><font size=3D"2"><tt><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; At IETF 80, there were=
 questions about overlap with other CCAMP<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; drafts containing=
 interface delay metrics and proposals for new TE sub-<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; TLVs=
. Have you or your co-authors, done looked at how your draft is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; positioned versus these other drafts? While these applications=
 have<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; differing goals, the CCAMP/OSPF chairs requested that=
 this analysis be<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; done.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; </tt></font><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draf=
t-wang-ccamp-latency-te-metric-03.txt" target=3D"_blank"><font color=3D"blu=
e" size=3D"2"><tt><u>http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-wang-ccamp-latency-te-met=
ric-03.txt</u></tt></font></a><font size=3D"2"><tt><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; We would like to avoid=
 having exactly the same information<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; advertised in two diff=
erent link Sub-TLVs. I&#39;d hope we could agree on<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; common =
units.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt;&gt; Acee<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
On Jun 20, 2011, at 4:30 PM, Spencer Giacalone wrote:<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&g=
t;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hello everyone,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; As you may have noticed, another version =
of the OSPF TE Express<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; Path<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
 draft has been posted. We made a number of changes based on<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; feedback<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; from IETF 80. We invi=
te your comments and suggestions. The main<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
changes include:<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt; -We have consolidated some sub-TLVs for efficiency. There are no<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; longer nominal and anomalous sub-TLVs for dela=
y and loss. The<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; functionality for signaling=
 steady state verses abnormal<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; performance<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt;&gt; for these parameters have been moved into two sub-TLVs (wher=
e we<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; used<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; to have four).<br>&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -In order to advertis=
e both normal and abnormal network<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; performance<br>&gt;&gt;&=
gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; state in consolidated sub-TLVs, a bit, called the anoma=
lous (A)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; but<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; has been added to certain =
sub-TLVs. The A bit is set when the<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; measured<br>&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; value of a parameter exceeds a configured maximum thresho=
ld. The A<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; bit<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; is cleared when the measur=
ed value falls below its configured<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; reuse<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt;&gt; threshold. If the A bit is clear, the sub-TLV represents ste=
ady<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; state<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; link performance.<br>&gt=
;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -We changed the e=
ncodings of certain variables from floating point<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; fixed point. This change permits the addition =
of the A bit (when<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; necessary), it allows bi=
t-space reservations to be made, and it<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; per=
mits a common TLV format across the bulk of the TLVs in the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; draft.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In addition, the new en=
codings address concerns about granularity<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; and<br>&gt;&gt;&=
gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; interoperability.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -We added sub-TLVs for Residual Bandwidth and =
Available Bandwidth.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Residual bandwidth is =
defined as the Maximum Bandwidth [RFC3630]<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; minus<br>&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the bandwidth currently allocated to RSVP-TE LSPs. Av=
ailable<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; bandwidth<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; is defined to be res=
idual bandwidth minus the measured bandwidth<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; used<br>&gt;&g=
t;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; for the actual forwarding of non-RSVP-TE LSP packets=
.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -Various other=
 modifications were made across the draft. These<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt; include, but are not limited to, the abstract, the introduction,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; the<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; thresholding specification=
s, and a number of field descriptions.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&=
gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -Last, but certainly not least, Stefano Providi=
 has joined the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; draft<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt;&gt; We look forward to hearing your comments and concerns.<br>&gt;&gt;&=
gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Spencer, Alia, Dave, John, Stefano<br>&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>&gt=
;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; OSPF mailing list<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=
 </tt></font><a href=3D"mailto:OSPF@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><font color=
=3D"blue" size=3D"2"><tt><u>OSPF@ietf.org</u></tt></font></a><font size=3D"=
2"><tt><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; </tt></font><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/listinfo/ospf" target=3D"_blank"><font color=3D"blue" size=3D"2"><tt>=
<u>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf</u></tt></font></a><font size=
=3D"2"><tt><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ______________________=
_________________________<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; OSPF mailing list<br>=
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; </tt></font><a href=3D"mailto:OSPF@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank"><font color=3D"blue" size=3D"2"><tt><u>OSPF@ietf.org</u></tt><=
/font></a><font size=3D"2"><tt><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; </tt></font><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailma=
n/listinfo/ospf" target=3D"_blank"><font color=3D"blue" size=3D"2"><tt><u>h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf</u></tt></font></a><font size=3D"=
2"><tt><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt=
;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; CCAMP=
 mailing list<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; </tt></font><a href=3D"mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org"=
 target=3D"_blank"><font color=3D"blue" size=3D"2"><tt><u>CCAMP@ietf.org</u=
></tt></font></a><font size=3D"2"><tt><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; </tt></font><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/c=
camp" target=3D"_blank"><font color=3D"blue" size=3D"2"><tt><u>https://www.=
ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp</u></tt></font></a><font size=3D"2"><tt><br=
>&gt; <br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>&gt; OSPF mailing l=
ist<br>&gt; </tt></font><a href=3D"mailto:OSPF@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
<font color=3D"blue" size=3D"2"><tt><u>OSPF@ietf.org</u></tt></font></a><fo=
nt size=3D"2"><tt><br>
&gt; </tt></font><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf" tar=
get=3D"_blank"><font color=3D"blue" size=3D"2"><tt><u>https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/ospf</u></tt></font></a><font size=3D"2"><tt><br>&gt; <br>=
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>&gt; <br>_______________________________________________<br>CCAMP =
mailing list</tt></font><font color=3D"blue" size=3D"2"><tt><u><br></u></tt=
></font><a href=3D"mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><font color=3D"=
blue" size=3D"2"><tt><u>CCAMP@ietf.org</u></tt></font></a><font color=3D"bl=
ue" size=3D"2"><tt><u><br>
</u></tt></font><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp" tar=
get=3D"_blank"><font color=3D"blue" size=3D"2"><tt><u>https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/ccamp</u></tt></font></a><font size=3D"2"><tt><br></tt></f=
ont><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"3"><br>
</font><br><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"3"><br>_______________________=
________________________<br>CCAMP mailing list</font><font face=3D"sans-ser=
if" color=3D"blue" size=3D"3"><u><br></u></font><a href=3D"mailto:CCAMP@iet=
f.org" target=3D"_blank"><font face=3D"sans-serif" color=3D"blue" size=3D"3=
"><u>CCAMP@ietf.org</u></font></a><font face=3D"sans-serif" color=3D"blue" =
size=3D"3"><u><br>
</u></font><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp" target=
=3D"_blank"><font face=3D"sans-serif" color=3D"blue" size=3D"3"><u>https://=
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 size=3D"3"><br>
</font><br><br></p></blockquote></div><br>

--20cf3071c6d2e1867e04a6da8674--

From Jonathan.Sadler@tellabs.com  Wed Jun 29 07:56:02 2011
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From: "Sadler, Jonathan B." <Jonathan.Sadler@tellabs.com>
To: Khuzema Pithewan <kpithewan@infinera.com>, "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>, 'CCAMP' <ccamp@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 09:55:10 -0500
Thread-Topic: OTN signalling drafts status
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Hello Khuzema,

I've looked at your interpretation of how the requirements you've stated be=
low are satisfied/not satisfied by the two drafts under consideration and w=
ould like to ask you about two of your conclusions:

Requirement

Draft-Zhang

Draft-Khuzema

R2

Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers

Supported without H-LSPs. Achieves scalability and better restoration perfo=
rmance.


You state that "better" scalability and restoration performance is achieved=
 in Draft-Khuzema - I interpret your statement this assuming that under the=
 H-LSP approach, any change of a service layer LSP requires a change to bot=
h the service LSP as well as the lower layer LSP.  Please validate my inter=
pretation.

Please also validate my understanding of the solution proposed in draft-khu=
zema: it seems the solution proposed requires separate signaling for each o=
f the service LSPs to perform restoration.  In the case of an ODU3 full of =
ODU0s, this would be 32 LSPs with 32 separate signaling actions when restor=
ation is required.

Under the H-LSP solution in draft-zhang, the same scenario of an ODU3 full =
of ODU0s would require 33 LSPs (32 for the ODU0s and 1 for the ODU3). Howev=
er, explicitly signaling the ODU3 LSP makes it possible to have restoration=
 performed on the ODU3, benefiting all of the ODU0 LSPs with one signaling =
action.  I therefore would expect the H-LSP solution to have better restora=
tion performance.

Requirement

Draft-Zhang

Draft-Khuzema

R5

Not Supported

Supported


R5 states a requirement for egress interface control, and your conclusions =
above state it isn't possible to support this in draft-zhang and can be sup=
ported in draft-khuzema.

There are solutions that allow for egress control to be satisfied using dra=
ft-zhang (e.g. assigning ifIndexes to potential H-LSPs defining the interme=
diate ODUj - these can then be specified in an ERO).  This approach has the=
 advantage of working with un-bundled as well as bundled egress links, incl=
uding bundles made up of links using different lower layer speed/technologi=
es (e.g. a bundle of OTU3 and ODU4)

Can you explain how the solution specified in draft-khuzema can handle bund=
le links where different lower layer speeds are in use?

Thanks,

Jonathan Sadler

From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of K=
huzema Pithewan
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 11:23 PM
To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); 'CCAMP'
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status

Thanks Pietro and Sergio for starting this off.

Hi CCampers,

We would like to provide more context to multi-stage label approach for bet=
ter understanding.  OTN is inherently a hierarchical network, and there are=
/will be cases where service ODU has to go through mandatory creation of mo=
re than one layer because of various technical/economic reasons. We are lis=
ting here requirements for supporting services over hierarchical OTN networ=
k.


1.      [R1] Support signaling mechanism to instantiate ODUj service layer =
on a ODUk link via single stage muxing.



A ODUj LSP could involve zero (j=3Dk) or one stage (j<k) multiplexing on a =
given ODUk link. Here both Control-plane and Data-plane entities are create=
d for the ODUj service layer. ODUk link could be a point-to-point OTUk link=
 or a H-LSP.



2.      [R2] Support signaling mechanism to instantiate one or more interme=
diate layers on a ODUk link in order to support the ODUj service layer.



A ODUj LSP could involve two or more stage multiplexing on a given ODUk lin=
k. These intermediate layers can be implicitly created as a part of ODUj se=
rvice LSP creation. In this case, both controlplane and dataplane entities =
will be created for the ODUj service layer. However, intermediate ODU layer=
(s) (implicitly created) will have dataplane representation only.



3.      [R3] Support signaling mechanism to instantiate ODUj service layer =
on a ODUk link where one or more intermediate ODU layers may be pre-existin=
g.



A ODUj LSP could involve two or more stage multiplexing on a given ODUk lin=
k. These intermediate layers may be pre-existing  as a result of another LS=
P creation on the same ODU hierarchy or explicitly configured through manag=
ement interface.



4.      [R4] Support signaling mechanism where ODUj service LSP creation ma=
y involve varying mux hierarchies on each hop



An end-to-end ODUj service LSP creation may involve zero or more stage ODU =
multiplexing on every hop in the path. Basically,the scenarios discussed in=
 R1 to R3 could be associated with any of the hops involved.



5.      [R5] Support signaling mechanism for egress control of OTN interfac=
es



An egress interface of a ODUj LSP could involve single or multiple stage mu=
ltiplexing. Egress Label sub-object defined in [RFC-4003] must be used to s=
ignal hierarchical multiplexing information pertaining to the egress interf=
ace of the LSP.



6.      [R6] Support signaling mechanism when ODUj service LSP creation req=
uires induced or manually created H-LSP.

Based on the above requirements, following is the comparison between two dr=
afts under discussion.


Requirement

Draft-Zhang

Draft-Khuzema

R1

Supported

Supported

R2

Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers

Supported without H-LSPs. Achieves scalability and better restoration perfo=
rmance.

R3

Supported using H-LSPs for each non-existing HO-ODU layers

Supported without H-LSPs

R4

Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers

Supported without H-LSPs

R5

Not Supported

Supported

R6

Supported using H-LSP

Supported using H-LSP



Would like to hear opinions.

Authors draft-khuzema


From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of G=
RANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 6:53 PM
To: 'CCAMP'
Subject: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status

Hello CCampers,

Currently two drafts exist for the signaling of LSPs in OTN technology.
The two drafts, namely draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709 and
draft-khuzema-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709, contain a lot of similarities
but are fundamentally different with respect to the support of multi-stage =
technology.

Draft-zhang proposes to deal with multi-stage technology via the usage
of H-LSPs as already defined in RFC6107. With this approach all LSPs
belonging to intermediate layers of a hierarchy are signaled as separate H-=
LSPs.
Monitoring, protection and restoration functionalities are applicable indep=
endently to each LSP.

Draft-khuzema proposes to introduce a new multi-stage label concept so that
a single construct contains labels associated to more then one hierarchical=
 level.
This implies that all level in the OTN  hierarchy with the exclusion of ser=
vice levels
are not visible as single LSPs.
Each layer cannot be independently monitored.
Only the service layer (the layer with the finest granularity) can be prote=
cted or restored.

Advantages and disadvantages of both approaches can be summarized in short,=
 telling that
the H-LSP approach is able to work in any situation while the multi-stage l=
abel approach is suitable
on single hops or similar situations (reached signaling before an H-LSP) bu=
t, when used,
optimizes processing.

As such we perceive the Draft-khuzema approach as an optimization that coul=
d be supported in an optional way.

Before going on with merging of the two drafts we would like to hear opinio=
ns from CCampers.

Pietro & Sergio

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Pietro Vittorio Grandi
Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
Tel: +39 039 686 4930
Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute. That's rel=
ativity.
(A. Einstein)



=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hello Khuzema,<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I&#8217;ve looked at your=
 interpretation of how the requirements you&#8217;ve stated below are satis=
fied/not satisfied by the two drafts under consideration and would like
 to ask you about two of your conclusions:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<table class=3D"MsoNormalTable" border=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=
=3D"0" width=3D"638" style=3D"width:6.65in;border-collapse:collapse">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;background:#C4BC96;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Requirement<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border:solid window=
text 1.0pt;border-left:none;background:#C4BC96;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt"=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Draft-Zhang<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border:solid windowte=
xt 1.0pt;border-left:none;background:#C4BC96;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Draft-Khuzema<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">R2<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windo=
wtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border-top:none;borde=
r-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported without H-LSPs. Achieves scalability and bette=
r restoration performance.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">You state that &#8220;bet=
ter&#8221; scalability and restoration performance is achieved in Draft-Khu=
zema &#8211; I interpret your statement this assuming that under the H-LSP
 approach, any change of a service layer LSP requires a change to both the =
service LSP as well as the lower layer LSP.&nbsp; Please validate my interp=
retation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Please also validate my u=
nderstanding of the solution proposed in draft-khuzema: it seems the soluti=
on proposed requires separate signaling for each of the
 service LSPs to perform restoration.&nbsp; In the case of an ODU3 full of =
ODU0s, this would be 32 LSPs with 32 separate signaling actions when restor=
ation is required.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Under the H-LSP solution =
in draft-zhang, the same scenario of an ODU3 full of ODU0s would require 33=
 LSPs (32 for the ODU0s and 1 for the ODU3). However, explicitly
 signaling the ODU3 LSP makes it possible to have restoration performed on =
the ODU3, benefiting all of the ODU0 LSPs with one signaling action.&nbsp; =
I therefore would expect the H-LSP solution to have better restoration perf=
ormance.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<table class=3D"MsoNormalTable" border=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=
=3D"0" width=3D"638" style=3D"width:6.65in;border-collapse:collapse">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;background:#C4BC96;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Requirement<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border:solid window=
text 1.0pt;border-left:none;background:#C4BC96;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt"=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Draft-Zhang<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border:solid windowte=
xt 1.0pt;border-left:none;background:#C4BC96;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Draft-Khuzema<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">R5<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windo=
wtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Not Supported<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border-top:none;borde=
r-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">R5 states a requirement f=
or egress interface control, and your conclusions above state it isn&#8217;=
t possible to support this in draft-zhang and can be supported
 in draft-khuzema.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">There are solutions that =
allow for egress control to be satisfied using draft-zhang (e.g. assigning =
ifIndexes to potential H-LSPs defining the intermediate
 ODUj &#8211; these can then be specified in an ERO).&nbsp; This approach h=
as the advantage of working with un-bundled as well as bundled egress links=
, including bundles made up of links using different lower layer speed/tech=
nologies (e.g. a bundle of OTU3 and ODU4)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Can you explain how the s=
olution specified in draft-khuzema can handle bundle links where different =
lower layer speeds are in use?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Jonathan Sadler<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> ccamp-bo=
unces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Khuzema Pithewan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 27, 2011 11:23 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); 'CCAMP'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Thanks Pietro and Sergio for starting this off.<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Hi CCampers,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">We would like to provide more context to multi-stage lab=
el approach for better understanding.&nbsp; OTN is inherently a hierarchica=
l network, and there are/will be cases where service ODU has
 to go through mandatory creation of more than one layer because of various=
 technical/economic reasons. We are listing here requirements for supportin=
g services over hierarchical OTN network.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:11=
5%"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times=
 New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:=
115%;background:silver;mso-highlight:silver">[R1]</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%"> Support signaling mechanism to instantiate =
ODUj service layer on a ODUk link via
 single stage muxing. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%">A ODUj LSP could involve zero (j=3Dk) or one stage (j&lt;k) multiplexi=
ng on a given ODUk link. Here both Control-plane and Data-plane entities ar=
e created for the ODUj service layer. ODUk
 link could be a point-to-point OTUk link or a H-LSP.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:11=
5%"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times=
 New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:=
115%;background:silver;mso-highlight:silver">[R2]</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%"> Support signaling mechanism to instantiate =
one or more intermediate layers on a
 ODUk link in order to support the ODUj service layer. <o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%">A ODUj LSP could involve two or more stage multiplexing on a given ODU=
k link. These intermediate layers can be implicitly created as a part of OD=
Uj service LSP creation. In this case,
 both controlplane and dataplane entities will be created for the ODUj serv=
ice layer. However, intermediate ODU layer(s) (implicitly created) will hav=
e dataplane representation only.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:11=
5%"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">3.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times=
 New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:=
115%;background:silver;mso-highlight:silver">[R3]</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%"> Support signaling mechanism to instantiate =
ODUj service layer on a ODUk link where
 one or more intermediate ODU layers may be pre-existing. <o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%">A ODUj LSP could involve two or more stage multiplexing on a given ODU=
k link. These intermediate layers may be pre-existing&nbsp; as a result of =
another LSP creation on the same ODU hierarchy
 or explicitly configured through management interface. <o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:11=
5%"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">4.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times=
 New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:=
115%;background:silver;mso-highlight:silver">[R4]</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%"> Support signaling mechanism where ODUj serv=
ice LSP creation may involve varying
 mux hierarchies on each hop <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%">An end-to-end ODUj service LSP creation may involve zero or more stage=
 ODU multiplexing on every hop in the path. Basically,the scenarios discuss=
ed in R1 to R3 could be associated with
 any of the hops involved.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:11=
5%"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">5.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times=
 New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:=
115%;background:silver;mso-highlight:silver">[R5]</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%"> Support signaling mechanism for egress cont=
rol of OTN interfaces
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%">An egress interface of a ODUj LSP could involve single or multiple sta=
ge multiplexing. Egress Label sub-object defined in [RFC-4003] must be used=
 to signal hierarchical multiplexing
 information pertaining to the egress interface of the LSP.&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:11=
5%"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">6.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times=
 New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:=
115%;background:silver;mso-highlight:silver">[R6]</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%"> Support signaling mechanism when ODUj servi=
ce LSP creation requires induced or
 manually created H-LSP.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Based on the above requirements, following is the compar=
ison between two drafts under discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<table class=3D"MsoNormalTable" border=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=
=3D"0" width=3D"638" style=3D"width:6.65in;border-collapse:collapse">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;background:#C4BC96;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Requirement<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border:solid window=
text 1.0pt;border-left:none;background:#C4BC96;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt"=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Draft-Zhang<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border:solid windowte=
xt 1.0pt;border-left:none;background:#C4BC96;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Draft-Khuzema<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">R1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windo=
wtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border-top:none;borde=
r-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">R2<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windo=
wtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border-top:none;borde=
r-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported without H-LSPs. Achieves scalability and bette=
r restoration performance.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">R3<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windo=
wtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported using H-LSPs for each non-existing HO-ODU laye=
rs
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border-top:none;borde=
r-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported without H-LSPs<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">R4<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windo=
wtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border-top:none;borde=
r-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported without H-LSPs<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">R5<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windo=
wtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Not Supported<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border-top:none;borde=
r-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">R6<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windo=
wtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported using H-LSP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border-top:none;borde=
r-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported using H-LSP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Would like to hear opinions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Authors draft-khuzema<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> ccamp-bo=
unces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 27, 2011 6:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'CCAMP'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Hello CCampers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Currently two drafts exist for the signa=
ling of LSPs in OTN technology.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">The two drafts, namely draft-zhang-ccamp=
-gmpls-evolving-g709 and
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">draft-khuzema-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709=
, contain a lot of similarities<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">but are fundamentally different with res=
pect to the support of multi-stage technology.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Draft-zhang proposes to deal with multi-=
stage technology via the usage<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">of H-LSPs as already defined in RFC6107.=
 With this approach all LSPs<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">belonging to intermediate layers of a hi=
erarchy are signaled as separate H-LSPs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Monitoring, protection and restoration f=
unctionalities are applicable independently to each LSP.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Draft-khuzema proposes to introduce a ne=
w multi-stage label concept so that<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">a single construct contains labels assoc=
iated to more then one hierarchical level.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">This implies that all level in the OTN&n=
bsp; hierarchy with the exclusion of service levels<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">are not visible as single LSPs.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Each layer cannot be independently monit=
ored.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Only the service layer (the layer with t=
he finest granularity) can be protected or restored.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Advantages and disadvantages of both app=
roaches can be summarized in short, telling that<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">the H-LSP approach is able to work in an=
y situation while the multi-stage label approach is suitable
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">on single hops or similar situations (re=
ached signaling before an H-LSP) but, when used,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">optimizes processing.<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">As such we perceive the Draft-khuzema ap=
proach as an optimization that could be supported in an optional way.<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Before going on with merging of the two =
drafts we would like to hear opinions from CCampers.&nbsp; &nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Pietro &amp; Sergio<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Pietro Vittorio Grandi</span><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"=
><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution</s=
pan><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sa=
ns-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)</span><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Tel: &#43;39 039 686 4930</span><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot=
;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-luce=
nt.com</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;=
,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute=
, and it seems like an hour.</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and i=
t seems like a&nbsp; minute. That's relativity.</span><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">(A. Einstein)</span><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tr=
ebuchet MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"Gray" size=3D"2">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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From jdrake@juniper.net  Wed Jun 29 08:42:47 2011
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Fatai Zhang <zhangfatai@huawei.com>, 'Igor Bryskin' <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>, "'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO	VITTORIO)'" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 08:39:03 -0700
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vli=
nk=3Dpurple style=3D'text-justify-trim:punctuation'><div class=3DWordSectio=
n1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Fata=
i,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0p=
t;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Let=A1=AFs assume we have a containin=
g hierarchical ODU3 between node B and node D over which we want to establi=
sh and ODU0.&nbsp; Using the sub-layer hierarchical LSP approach, we would =
signal a sub-layer ODU2 hierarchical LSP between B and D and then signal th=
e ODU0.&nbsp; With multi-stage labels we would signal the ODU0 and include =
an ODU2 multi-stage label.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>As I have rep=
eatedly said, either can be made to work with some non-zero amount of effor=
t, but my preference is for multi-stage labels, strictly from an efficiency=
 perspective.&nbsp; There isn=A1=AFt enough difference between the two appr=
oaches to warrant standardizing both.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span=
></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Th=
anks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>John<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:lef=
t'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Sent from my iPhone<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;=
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div style=3D'border:none;border=
-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border=
:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3D=
MsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><b><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'=
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Fatai Zhang [mailto:zh=
angfatai@huawei.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 29, 2011 1:59 AM<br><=
b>To:</b> John E Drake; 'Igor Bryskin'; 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VI=
TTORIO)'<br><b>Cc:</b> 'CCAMP'<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN sing=
le stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DM=
soPlainText>Hi John,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Agree with Igor that let emotions aside if the=
re was some improper wording. Let<span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>=
=A1=AF</span>s discuss tech.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Could you clarify your point 1) a litt=
le more? Here is a simple example shown below. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Could you explain h=
ow to create ODU0 connection from Node A to Node E by multi-stage labels ap=
proach? What information (e.g., traffic parameters, labels) should be carri=
ed in the Path or Resv message? What action should be taken for Node C when=
 receiving the Path or Resv message?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>=
<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><img width=3D9=
26 height=3D226 id=3D"Picture_x0020_1" src=3D"cid:image001.png@01CC3637.FFE=
59940"><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Thanks<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>&nbsp;</span><o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Fatai<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainT=
ext><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoPlainText>-----Original Message-----<br>From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.o=
rg [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of John E Drake<br>Sent: 2011<=
span lang=3DZH-CN style=3D'font-family:SimSun'>=C4=EA</span>6<span lang=3DZ=
H-CN style=3D'font-family:SimSun'>=D4=C2</span>29<span lang=3DZH-CN style=
=3D'font-family:SimSun'>=C8=D5</span> 6:12<br>To: Igor Bryskin; GRANDI, PIE=
TRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)<br>Cc: CCAMP<br>Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OT=
N single stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Igor,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPla=
inText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>I have a few clarificat=
ions.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>1)&nbsp; Multi-stage labels apply equally well to multi-hop=
 hierarchical LSPs. (The is the point some people do not seem to understand=
.)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oPlainText>2)&nbsp; It is incorrect to say that LSP hierarchy, as is, just =
works for the establishment of a hierarchical LSP that supports multi-stage=
 switching.&nbsp; This involves a nested set of hierarchical LSPs, the cont=
aining hierarchical LSP and the set of sub-layer LSPs which provide context=
 for intermediate stage labels, between the same two endpoints.&nbsp; This =
is a new construct and there are almost certainly details to be worked out.=
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoP=
lainText>3)&nbsp; I don't think we should standardize both approaches.&nbsp=
; I would prefer that the working group pick one to standardize.<o:p></o:p>=
</p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Th=
anks,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>John<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DM=
soPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.=
com]<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 201=
1 9:24 AM<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; To: GRANDI, PIETRO VIT=
TORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); John E Drake<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText=
>&gt; Cc: CCAMP<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Subject: RE: RSV=
P OTN single stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt=
;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Hi Pietro,<o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&=
gt; You may not like John's tone, but emotions aside, what he keeps saying<=
o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; repeatedly in this discussion do=
es make perfect sense to me.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; 1) =
The point of CP signaling is to convey information pertinent to<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; network element provisioning in most effici=
ent way. It does seem stupid<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; to =
signal numerous one hop hierarchical LSPs (when it is sufficient a<o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; single end-to-end round of signaling to =
do the job), create and support<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
numerous extra CP states, take care of all restart implications, etc.<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; just to be consistent with RFC_XYZ wr=
itten 10 years ago;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; 2) Besides, =
you can think of multi-stage label as identification of a<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; new type of network resources controlled by GMPLS=
. Even the GMPLS god-<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; fathers wo=
uld agree that they never meant to limit GMPLS to control the<o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; resources described in early CCAMP RFCs.<o:p>=
</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; 3) Finally, no one ever said that yo=
u cannot orchestrate multi-stage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=
 provisioning through the hierarchy of LSPs if you choose to do so.<o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlain=
Text>&gt; Cheers,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Igor<o:p></o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTe=
xt>&gt; -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&g=
t; From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf<o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Of GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETR=
O VITTORIO)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Sent: Tuesday, June =
28, 2011 10:43 AM<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; To: John E Dra=
ke<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Cc: CCAMP<o:p></o:p></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi=
 stage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Hello John,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&=
gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; 1) You have forwarded =
to the CCamp mailing list a number of private<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoP=
lainText>&gt; mails without asking the permission to the involved people. T=
his is<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; impolite and unprofession=
al.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; 2) You are creating spam on the mailing list forwardin=
g four threads<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; that are each hun=
dreds of lines long and very complicated to follow for<o:p></o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; people not involved in the discussion since the begi=
nning. Moreover,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; this happened a=
fter a discussion from scratch was already started in<o:p></o:p></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; the mailing list.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTe=
xt>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; 3) You moved from =
a technical discussion to arrogant and deliberate<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D=
MsoPlainText>&gt; personal offenses not supported by any sound technical mo=
tivation as<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; reported in your mai=
ls and snipped below:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &quot;This shows a complete lack of =
understanding of hierarchical LSP,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&g=
t; multi-stage labels, and GMPLS in general.&nbsp; It is so bad it is not e=
ven<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; wrong.&quot;<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt=
; &quot; It might be more precise to say I reviewed your slides and found<o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; them, shall we say, lacking.&quot=
;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; We hope that from now on the discussion can be continu=
ed from a purely<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; technical point=
 of view.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Pietro, Sergio and Daniele<o:p></o:p></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Pietro Vittorio Grandi<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoP=
lainText>&gt; Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)<o:p></o:p></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Tel: +39 039 686 4930<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPla=
inText>&gt; Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Put your hand on a =
hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like =
a&nbsp; minute. That's<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; relativit=
y.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; (A. Einstein)<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt=
; -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Fro=
m: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf<o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Of John E Drake<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Sent: marted<span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>=
=A8=AC</span> 28 giugno 2011 14.13<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&g=
t; To: CCAMP<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Subject: [CCAMP] FW=
: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTex=
t>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&=
gt; Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMso=
PlainText>&gt; -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlain=
Text>&gt; From: John E Drake<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Sen=
t: Thursday, June 23, 2011 3:56 PM<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&g=
t; To: 'Fatai Zhang'; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jo=
nathan Sadler; Jonathan<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Hardwick=
; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -<o:p></o:p></p>=
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok=
 Kunjidhapatham; BELOTTI,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; SERGIO=
 (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli<o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stag=
e<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Fatai,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Comments inline.<o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&=
gt; Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>=
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; John<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt=
;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Sent from my iPhone<o:p>=
</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPl=
ainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; -----Ori=
ginal Message-----<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; From: Fa=
tai Zhang [mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com]<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainT=
ext>&gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 9:45 AM<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); Jo=
hn E Drake<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Cc: Vallinayakam=
 Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@=
zte.com.cn; Ciena -<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Lyndon =
Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham;<o:p></o:p></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; BELOTTI,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=
 &gt; SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli<o:p>=
</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single st=
age vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Hi John,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DM=
soPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; I gue=
ss that you did not review our slides carefully.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DM=
soPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; JD:&nbsp;=
 I will let this pass.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPl=
ainText>&gt; &gt; You just see the only advantage for the corner case (i.e.=
, establish<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; multi-layers LS=
P concurrently), but you did not see the issues that<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; we<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; des=
cribed in the slides and the issues that Jonathan mentioned (eg.,<o:p></o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; OAM/protection issues).<o:p></o:p></=
p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>=
&gt; JD:&nbsp; I'm sorry that I didn't provide enough context.&nbsp; I don'=
t think the<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; one-hop hierarchical=
 LSP case, w/ or w/o multi-stage labels is either<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D=
MsoPlainText>&gt; interesting or common and it was not the case to which I =
was addressing<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; my comments.&nbsp=
; Rather, I was describing two ways of establishing multi-<o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; hop multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.&nbsp; As far =
as I can tell the issues<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Jonatha=
n raised in this context are red herrings rather than blue<o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; whales.&nbsp; Furthermore, regardless of which o=
f the two approaches I<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; described=
 is used, the issues, if any, would be exactly the same.<o:p></o:p></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &=
gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; In addition, we have re=
peated many times that LSP hierarchy must be<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPl=
ainText>&gt; &gt; used in many cases, even though we have multi-stage label=
 approach.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; E.g., an ODU0 co=
nnection request from A to E through B, C and D, but<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; B,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; C a=
nd&nbsp; D (or one of them ) can not support ODU0 switching, the HO<o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; ODUj<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainT=
ext>&gt; &gt; (ODU1 or ODU2 or ODU3 or ODU4) LSP must be created between B =
and D<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; through LSP hierarchy=
. This example is very simple and there are lots<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DM=
soPlainText>&gt; &gt; of transforms for this example to use LSP hierarchy.<=
o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DM=
soPlainText>&gt; JD:&nbsp; Please see above.&nbsp; I completely agree with =
you and was simply<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; pointing out =
that multi-stage labels can be used to improve wrt latency<o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; and control plane overhead, the establishment of=
 ODUj LSPs within<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; multi-stage hi=
erarchical LSPs.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTex=
t>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=
 &gt; Fatai<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Thanks<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTe=
xt>&gt; &gt; ----- Original Message -----<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlain=
Text>&gt; &gt; From: &quot;John E Drake&quot; &lt;jdrake@juniper.net&gt;<o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; To: &quot;GRANDI, PIETRO VITT=
ORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)&quot;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt=
; &lt;pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com&gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Cc: &quot;Daniele Ceccarelli&quot; &lt;daniele.ce=
ccarelli@ericsson.com&gt;; &quot;Rajan<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTex=
t>&gt; Rao&quot;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &lt;rrao@i=
nfinera.com&gt;; &quot;Fatai Zhang&quot; &lt;zhangfatai@huawei.com&gt;; &qu=
ot;Khuzema<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Pithewan&quot; &=
lt;kpithewan@infinera.com&gt;; &quot;BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)&quot;<o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &lt;sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.=
com&gt;; &quot;Ashok Kunjidhapatham&quot;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlain=
Text>&gt; &gt; &lt;akunjidhapatham@infinera.com&gt;; &quot;Diego Caviglia&q=
uot;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &lt;diego.caviglia@eri=
csson.com&gt;; &quot;Steve Balls&quot;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTex=
t>&gt; &gt; &lt;Steve.Balls@metaswitch.com&gt;; &quot;Ciena - Lyndon Ong&qu=
ot; &lt;LyOng@Ciena.com&gt;;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt=
; &lt;fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&gt;; &quot;NSN - Cyril Margaria&quot;<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &lt;cyril.margaria@nsn.com&gt;;<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &quot;Li Dan&quot; &lt;huawei.danli@hu=
awei.com&gt;; &quot;Jonathan Hardwick&quot;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPla=
inText>&gt; &gt; &lt;Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com&gt;; &quot;Tellabs - =
Jonathan Sadler&quot;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &lt;j=
onathan.sadler@tellabs.com&gt;; &quot;Vallinayakam Somasundaram&quot;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &lt;valli@juniper.net&gt;<o:p></=
o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 7:2=
1 PM<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: RSVP OTN =
single stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;=
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DM=
soPlainText>&gt; &gt; Pietro,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &g=
t;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; If we are talking about =
the establishment of LSPs using single-stage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPl=
ainText>&gt; &gt; muxing, I think the only thing necessary is a new label f=
ormat, which<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; I<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; believe is a bit map of tributary slots; i.e=
., LSP establishment<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; using<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; single-stage muxing is done.<o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPl=
ainText>&gt; &gt; We have never had a situation such as multi-stage muxing =
before so we<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; are breaking n=
ew ground and we have two choices, either use LSP<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D=
MsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; hierarchy to establish multiple single-stage sub-lay=
er LSPs<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; explicitly<o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; and sequentially, or include the sub-lay=
er information within the<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Path<o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; message for the ODUj such th=
at the sub-layers are established<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt=
; &gt; implicitly and concurrently with the establishment of the ODUj.<o:p>=
</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPla=
inText>&gt; &gt; Either will work, but it seems to me that the latter is mo=
re<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; efficient<o:p></o:p></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; wrt latency and control plane overhead.&nbsp; =
The one thing I do not want<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; to<o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; do is to say that both are s=
upported.&nbsp; If we can agree that we will<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPl=
ainText>&gt; &gt; only use one method to establish multi-stage LSPs, then w=
hen a node<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; advertises multi=
-stage support in routing, we know how signaling is<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; to<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; be =
accomplished.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlai=
nText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; John<o:p></=
o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlain=
Text>&gt; &gt; Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&g=
t; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p>=
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETR=
O VITTORIO)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; [mailto:pi=
etro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainT=
ext>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 1:31 AM<o:p></o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: John E Drake<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D=
MsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang;=
 Khuzema Pithewan;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; BEL=
OTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;<o:p></o:p></p>=
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Steve<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&g=
t; &gt; &gt; Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril<o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Margaria;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonatha=
n Sadler; Vallinayakam<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;=
 Somasundaram; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)<o:p></o:p></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs mu=
lti stage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></=
p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; John,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMso=
PlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &g=
t; It seems as though you consider on the same level something (H-LSP<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; concept) already used in CP=
 managing multi-layer with something<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>=
&gt; that<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; does not exi=
st at all.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Operators a=
re used to managed their CP network together with NMS.<o:p></o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Most of the NMS work per-layer. The utiliz=
ation of a multi-stage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; labe=
l<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; would force NMS to w=
ork in another manner with heavy implementation<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; consequences.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTe=
xt>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; We s=
hould also keep in mind that multi-stage label approach can<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; only<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=
 &gt; be<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; used in some =
cases (not for all the one-hop multi-stage muxing) and<o:p></o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; it<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &=
gt; &gt; will bring some management issues. Please see the slides that Fata=
i<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; sent a few days ago.=
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; For both these reasons the &quot;optional&q=
uot; condition of multi-stage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; la=
bel<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; concept is absolut=
ely mandatory for us.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<=
o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Pietro, Sergio, Fatai =
&amp; Daniele<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;=
 &gt; Pietro Vittorio Grandi<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt=
; &gt; Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoP=
lainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)<o:p></o:p></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Tel: +39 039 686 4930<o:p></o:p></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-luc=
ent.com<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; =3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoP=
lainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it s=
eems like an<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; hour.<o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sit with a pretty girl for an hour,=
 and it seems like a&nbsp; minute.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&g=
t; &gt; That's<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; relativ=
ity.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; (A. Einstein)<o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D=
MsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;=
 &gt; -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=
 &gt; &gt; From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: sabato 18 giugno 2011 2.40<o:p></=
o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO =
(PIETRO VITTORIO)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: =
Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;<o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kun=
jidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Ste=
ve<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Balls; Ciena - Lynd=
on Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainT=
ext>&gt; Margaria;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Li =
Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Somasundaram<o:p></o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs mult=
i stage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p>=
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Pietro,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMso=
PlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &g=
t; We can certainly say that a node that advertises multistage<o:p></o:p></=
p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; switching<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainT=
ext>&gt; &gt; &gt; support in routing MUST support multistage signaling.<o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; As I said before, using mutiple RSVP exchang=
es between the same LSP<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt=
; endpoints to establish intermediate switching stages seems ill-<o:p></o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; considered and forcing everyone=
 to support two ways of signaling<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt=
; &gt; &gt; multistage LSPs seems like a really Bad Idea.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&=
gt; &gt; &gt; John<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent from my iPhone<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; On Jun 17, 2011, at 2:55 AM, &quot;GRANDI, PIETRO=
 VITTORIO (PIETRO<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; VITT=
ORIO)&quot; &lt;pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; lucent.com&lt;mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcat=
el-lucent.com&gt;&gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; wrote:<o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D=
MsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Hello John,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTe=
xt>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; I un=
derstand that you think that the new switching type in routing<o:p></o:p></=
p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; should also convey implicitly the =
information that a<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; mul=
ti-stage label is supported.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt=
; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; I do not agree =
with this statement.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; I=
mplementations using H-LSPs plus single stage labels are possible<o:p></o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; (and<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPla=
inText>&gt; &gt; &gt; already standard) and the fact the a node supports<o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; the new switching type i=
s not enough to clearly tell what is<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>=
&gt; &gt; supported.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Pietro<o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>=
&gt; &gt; &gt; ________________________________<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]<o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: venerd<span style=
=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>=A8=AC</span> 17 giugno 2011 2.09<o:p></o:p>=
</p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIE=
TRO VITTORIO); Daniele Ceccarelli;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&g=
t; &gt; &gt; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SER=
GIO);<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Ashok Kunjidhapa=
tham; Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena -<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoP=
lainText>&gt; Lyndon<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; O=
ng'; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&lt;mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&gt;; 'NSN - Cyril<o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jo=
nathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText=
>&gt; &gt; Sadler';<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Va=
llinayakam Somasundaram<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt=
; Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &=
gt; &gt; Pietro,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Actually we are already cov=
ered.&nbsp;&nbsp; Our advertisements use a<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlai=
nText>&gt; different<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; s=
witching type, which is also carried in signaling.&nbsp; This means<o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; that<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainT=
ext>&gt; &gt; we<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; get t=
o define the signaling used for this switching type, and I am<o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; proposing that we use multistage.<o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTex=
t>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; John<=
o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &=
gt; &gt; From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)<o:p></o:p></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-l=
ucent.com]<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Thurs=
day, June 16, 2011 6:52 AM<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; =
&gt; To: Daniele Ceccarelli; John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang;<o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Khuzema<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlai=
nText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapath=
am; Diego<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Caviglia; 'S=
teve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&g=
t; &gt; &gt; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&lt;mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&gt;; 'NSN - =
Cyril<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Margaria'; 'Li D=
an'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoP=
lainText>&gt; &gt; Sadler';<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;=
 &gt; Vallinayakam Somasundaram<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText=
>&gt; &gt; &gt; Hi all,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt=
;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; I&nbsp; agree with D=
aniele' statement.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; in my mind this means tha=
t single stage label support is implicit<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainT=
ext>&gt; and<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; that<o:p>=
</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; multi-stage labels should =
not be used unless a machine explicitly<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTe=
xt>&gt; &gt; &gt; declares the support.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTe=
xt>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Piet=
ro<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt=
; &gt; &gt; =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Pietro Vittorio Grandi<o:p>=
</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Terrestrial Optics Portfol=
io Evolution<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Alcatel-L=
ucent Vimercate (Italy)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt=
; Tel: +39 039 686 4930<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt=
; Mail: &lt;mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com&gt;<o:p></o:p>=
</p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-<=
o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; lucent.com&lt;mailto:p=
ietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com&gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPl=
ainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Put your hand o=
n a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DM=
soPlainText>&gt; hour.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;=
 Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a&nbsp; minute.<o:p>=
</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; That's<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; relativity.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlai=
nText>&gt; &gt; &gt; (A. Einstein)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&g=
t; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; _________=
_______________________<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt=
; From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]<o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: gioved<span style=3D'fo=
nt-family:"Courier New"'>=A8=AC</span> 16 giugno 2011 15.48<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zh=
ang; Khuzema Pithewan;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; BELOTTI,<=
o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok=
 Kunjidhapatham; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainT=
ext>&gt; &gt; (PIETRO<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
VITTORIO); Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&lt;mailto:fu.=
xihua@zte.com.cn&gt;; 'NSN - Cyril<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&g=
t; &gt; &gt; Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan<=
o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Sadler';<o:p></o:p></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Vallinayakam Somasundaram<o:p></o:p></p>=
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: RSVP OTN single stage vs mu=
lti stage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></=
p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Starting a new thread as we're now=
 moving to signaling...<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt=
;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Assuming we still ha=
ve not decided whether we're going to support<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoP=
lainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; single stage only, multi stage only or both of them=
 i believe that<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; as<o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; per OSPF we need to consider backwa=
rd compatibility.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p>=
</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; An implementation RFC4328 =
based (that we've explicitly been told<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTex=
t>&gt; not<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; to<o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; deprecate) is single stage based, s=
o in case of multi stage only or<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=
 &gt; &gt; multi-stage + single stage we should be able to cover backward<o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; compatibility issues so=
mehow.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; BR<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainT=
ext>&gt; &gt; &gt; Daniele<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; _________________=
_______________<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; From: =
John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainT=
ext>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: gioved<span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>=
=A8=AC</span> 16 giugno 2011 8.53<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt=
; &gt; &gt; To: Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewa=
n;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (S=
ERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &g=
t; &gt; Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;<o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; 'Steve<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';<o:p></o:p></p>=
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&lt;mailto:fu.xih=
ua@zte.com.cn&gt;; 'NSN - Cyril<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
&gt; &gt; Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan<o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Sadler';<o:p></o:p></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Vallinayakam Somasundaram<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN =
OSPF draft (support for<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; multi-<o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; stage Vs Single Stage l=
abels)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Rajan,<o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPl=
ainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; I didn't want to allow interoperability options.&nbs=
p; I much preferred<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; to<o:p></o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; say that we do signaling in one=
 way only, using multistage labels.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&=
gt; &gt; &gt; These are also needed for signaling within&nbsp; hierarchical=
 LSPs.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoP=
lainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt=
; John<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&=
gt; &gt; &gt; From: Rajan Rao [mailto:rrao@infinera.com]<o:p></o:p></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 10:46 PM<=
o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: Daniele Ceccarelli=
; Fatai Zhang; John E Drake; Khuzema<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>=
&gt; Pithewan;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; 'BELOTT=
I, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlain=
Text>&gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego =
Caviglia;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; 'Steve<o:p></o:p>=
</p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';<o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&lt;m=
ailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&gt;; 'NSN - Cyril<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPla=
inText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - =
Jonathan<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Sadler';<o:p></o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Vallinayakam Somasundaram<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Latest version=
 of the OTN OSPF draft (support for<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&=
gt; multi-<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; stage Vs Si=
ngle Stage labels)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Hi,<o:p></o:p></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
&gt; &gt; While we are making updates, let us discuss support required in<o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; link<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMso=
PlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; advertisement for single/multi-stage label options=
:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Given that there is interest in both multi=
-stage label and single-<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; st=
age<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; with H-LSPs, we sh=
ould consider inclusion of a FLAG to indicate<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoP=
lainText>&gt; what<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; the=
 link is capable of.&nbsp; This will address some of the issues we<o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; have<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTe=
xt>&gt; &gt; &gt; discussed in the past relating to path computation involv=
ing NEs<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; with<o:p></o:p></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; different capabilities (inter-op).<o:p></=
o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMso=
PlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Thanks<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
&gt; &gt; Rajan<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; ________________=
_______________________________<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
CCAMP mailing list<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; CCAMP@ietf.or=
g<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l=
istinfo/ccamp<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; __________________=
_____________________________<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; CC=
AMP mailing list<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; CCAMP@ietf.org<=
o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis=
tinfo/ccamp<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>_________________________=
______________________<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>CCAMP mailing =
list<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>CCAMP@ietf.org<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp<o:p></o:p>=
</p></div></div></body></html>=

--_000_5E893DB832F57341992548CDBB333163A0A899F371EMBX01HQjnprn_--

--_004_5E893DB832F57341992548CDBB333163A0A899F371EMBX01HQjnprn_
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From jdrake@juniper.net  Wed Jun 29 08:45:34 2011
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Fatai Zhang <zhangfatai@huawei.com>, 'Igor Bryskin' <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>, "'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO	VITTORIO)'" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 08:41:30 -0700
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vli=
nk=3Dpurple style=3D'text-justify-trim:punctuation'><div class=3DWordSectio=
n1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Fata=
i,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0p=
t;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>One important point I forgot.&nbsp; W=
ith either approach, the signaling is strictly between the containing hiera=
rchical LSP endpoints, B and D.&nbsp; No other nodes see any signaling mess=
ages once the ODU3 hierarchical LSP is established.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;col=
or:#1F497D'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D=
MsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>John <o:p></o:p></=
span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D=
'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=
=3D'text-align:left'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Sent fr=
om my iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D=
'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div style=3D'=
border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><div><d=
iv style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0i=
n 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><b><span=
 style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Fata=
i Zhang [mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 29,=
 2011 1:59 AM<br><b>To:</b> John E Drake; 'Igor Bryskin'; 'GRANDI, PIETRO V=
ITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'<br><b>Cc:</b> 'CCAMP'<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [CC=
AMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Hi John,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTex=
t><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Agree with Igor that let emo=
tions aside if there was some improper wording. Let<span style=3D'font-fami=
ly:"Courier New"'>=A1=AF</span>s discuss tech.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMso=
PlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Could you clarify yo=
ur point 1) a little more? Here is a simple example shown below. <o:p></o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>C=
ould you explain how to create ODU0 connection from Node A to Node E by mul=
ti-stage labels approach? What information (e.g., traffic parameters, label=
s) should be carried in the Path or Resv message? What action should be tak=
en for Node C when receiving the Path or Resv message?<o:p></o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTe=
xt><img width=3D926 height=3D226 id=3D"Picture_x0020_1" src=3D"cid:image001=
.png@01CC3638.578F9D80"><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTe=
xt><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Thanks<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>=
&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Fatai<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>-----Original Message-----<br>From: cca=
mp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of John E Dra=
ke<br>Sent: 2011<span lang=3DZH-CN style=3D'font-family:SimSun'>=C4=EA</spa=
n>6<span lang=3DZH-CN style=3D'font-family:SimSun'>=D4=C2</span>29<span lan=
g=3DZH-CN style=3D'font-family:SimSun'>=C8=D5</span> 6:12<br>To: Igor Brysk=
in; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)<br>Cc: CCAMP<br>Subject: Re: =
[CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPl=
ainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Igor,<o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>I have a=
 few clarifications.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>1)&nbsp; Multi-stage labels apply equally well=
 to multi-hop hierarchical LSPs. (The is the point some people do not seem =
to understand.)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>=
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>2)&nbsp; It is incorrect to say that LSP hierarchy,=
 as is, just works for the establishment of a hierarchical LSP that support=
s multi-stage switching.&nbsp; This involves a nested set of hierarchical L=
SPs, the containing hierarchical LSP and the set of sub-layer LSPs which pr=
ovide context for intermediate stage labels, between the same two endpoints=
.&nbsp; This is a new construct and there are almost certainly details to b=
e worked out.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoPlainText>3)&nbsp; I don't think we should standardize both app=
roaches.&nbsp; I would prefer that the working group pick one to standardiz=
e.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oPlainText>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>John<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; -----Original Message-----<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@a=
dvaoptical.com]<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Sent: Tuesday, J=
une 28, 2011 9:24 AM<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; To: GRANDI,=
 PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); John E Drake<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DM=
soPlainText>&gt; Cc: CCAMP<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Subje=
ct: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPl=
ainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Hi Pietro,<o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMso=
PlainText>&gt; You may not like John's tone, but emotions aside, what he ke=
eps saying<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; repeatedly in this di=
scussion does make perfect sense to me.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTe=
xt>&gt; 1) The point of CP signaling is to convey information pertinent to<=
o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; network element provisioning in =
most efficient way. It does seem stupid<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTe=
xt>&gt; to signal numerous one hop hierarchical LSPs (when it is sufficient=
 a<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; single end-to-end round of si=
gnaling to do the job), create and support<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlai=
nText>&gt; numerous extra CP states, take care of all restart implications,=
 etc.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; just to be consistent with=
 RFC_XYZ written 10 years ago;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; 2=
) Besides, you can think of multi-stage label as identification of a<o:p></=
o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; new type of network resources controll=
ed by GMPLS. Even the GMPLS god-<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=
 fathers would agree that they never meant to limit GMPLS to control the<o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; resources described in early CCAMP=
 RFCs.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; 3) Finally, no one ever s=
aid that you cannot orchestrate multi-stage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPla=
inText>&gt; provisioning through the hierarchy of LSPs if you choose to do =
so.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Cheers,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Igo=
r<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oPlainText>&gt; From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org=
] On Behalf<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Of GRANDI, PIETRO VI=
TTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Sent: T=
uesday, June 28, 2011 10:43 AM<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; T=
o: John E Drake<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Cc: CCAMP<o:p></=
o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single s=
tage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Hello John,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DM=
soPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; 1) You ha=
ve forwarded to the CCamp mailing list a number of private<o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; mails without asking the permission to the invol=
ved people. This is<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; impolite and=
 unprofessional.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; 2) You are creating spam on the mailing l=
ist forwarding four threads<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; that=
 are each hundreds of lines long and very complicated to follow for<o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; people not involved in the discussion s=
ince the beginning. Moreover,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; th=
is happened after a discussion from scratch was already started in<o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; the mailing list.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; 3) Yo=
u moved from a technical discussion to arrogant and deliberate<o:p></o:p></=
p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; personal offenses not supported by any sound=
 technical motivation as<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; reporte=
d in your mails and snipped below:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&g=
t;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &quot;This shows a comp=
lete lack of understanding of hierarchical LSP,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oPlainText>&gt; multi-stage labels, and GMPLS in general.&nbsp; It is so ba=
d it is not even<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; wrong.&quot;<o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMso=
PlainText>&gt; &quot; It might be more precise to say I reviewed your slide=
s and found<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; them, shall we say, =
lacking.&quot;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; We hope that from now on the discussion can=
 be continued from a purely<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; tech=
nical point of view.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Pietro, Sergio and Daniele<o:p></o:p>=
</p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTex=
t>&gt; =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Pietro Vittorio Grandi<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution<o:p></o:p>=
</p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)<o:p></o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Tel: +39 039 686 4930<o:p></o:p></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com<o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Put you=
r hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.<o:p></o:p></=
p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it s=
eems like a&nbsp; minute. That's<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=
 relativity.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; (A. Einstein)<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPla=
inText>&gt; -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTex=
t>&gt; From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Beha=
lf<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Of John E Drake<o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Sent: marted<span style=3D'font-family:"Couri=
er New"'>=A8=AC</span> 28 giugno 2011 14.13<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPla=
inText>&gt; To: CCAMP<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Subject: [=
CCAMP] FW: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPl=
ainText>&gt; Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=
<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; From: John E Drake<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTe=
xt>&gt; Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 3:56 PM<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoP=
lainText>&gt; To: 'Fatai Zhang'; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)<=
o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; T=
ellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&g=
t; Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -<o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Cavi=
glia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham; BELOTTI,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>=
&gt; SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs=
 multi stage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Fatai,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>=
&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Comments inline.<o:p>=
</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPl=
ainText>&gt; Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; John<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlai=
nText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Sent from my iP=
hone<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;=
 -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;=
 From: Fatai Zhang [mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com]<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D=
MsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 9:45 AM<o:p></o:p></p>=
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTO=
RIO); John E Drake<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Cc: Vall=
inayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan<o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.=
xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; L=
yndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham;<o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; BELOTTI,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTex=
t>&gt; &gt; SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarell=
i<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: RSVP OTN sin=
gle stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Hi John,<o:p></o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;=
 I guess that you did not review our slides carefully.<o:p></o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; JD:=
&nbsp; I will let this pass.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; You just see the only advantage for the corner ca=
se (i.e., establish<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; multi-l=
ayers LSP concurrently), but you did not see the issues that<o:p></o:p></p>=
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; we<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
&gt; described in the slides and the issues that Jonathan mentioned (eg.,<o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; OAM/protection issues).<o:p>=
</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPl=
ainText>&gt; JD:&nbsp; I'm sorry that I didn't provide enough context.&nbsp=
; I don't think the<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; one-hop hier=
archical LSP case, w/ or w/o multi-stage labels is either<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; interesting or common and it was not the case to =
which I was addressing<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; my commen=
ts.&nbsp; Rather, I was describing two ways of establishing multi-<o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; hop multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.&nbsp;=
 As far as I can tell the issues<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=
 Jonathan raised in this context are red herrings rather than blue<o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; whales.&nbsp; Furthermore, regardless of=
 which of the two approaches I<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; d=
escribed is used, the issues, if any, would be exactly the same.<o:p></o:p>=
</p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTex=
t>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; In addition, we=
 have repeated many times that LSP hierarchy must be<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; used in many cases, even though we have multi-sta=
ge label approach.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; E.g., an=
 ODU0 connection request from A to E through B, C and D, but<o:p></o:p></p>=
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; B,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
&gt; C and&nbsp; D (or one of them ) can not support ODU0 switching, the HO=
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; ODUj<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DM=
soPlainText>&gt; &gt; (ODU1 or ODU2 or ODU3 or ODU4) LSP must be created be=
tween B and D<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; through LSP h=
ierarchy. This example is very simple and there are lots<o:p></o:p></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; of transforms for this example to use LSP hie=
rarchy.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; JD:&nbsp; Please see above.&nbsp; I completely agr=
ee with you and was simply<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; point=
ing out that multi-stage labels can be used to improve wrt latency<o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; and control plane overhead, the establis=
hment of ODUj LSPs within<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; multi-=
stage hierarchical LSPs.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMso=
PlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainT=
ext>&gt; &gt; Fatai<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Thanks<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oPlainText>&gt; &gt; ----- Original Message -----<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D=
MsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; From: &quot;John E Drake&quot; &lt;jdrake@juniper.ne=
t&gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; To: &quot;GRANDI, PIE=
TRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)&quot;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>=
&gt; &gt; &lt;pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com&gt;<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Cc: &quot;Daniele Ceccarelli&quot; &lt;dan=
iele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com&gt;; &quot;Rajan<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoP=
lainText>&gt; Rao&quot;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &lt=
;rrao@infinera.com&gt;; &quot;Fatai Zhang&quot; &lt;zhangfatai@huawei.com&g=
t;; &quot;Khuzema<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Pithewan&=
quot; &lt;kpithewan@infinera.com&gt;; &quot;BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)&quot;<=
o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &lt;sergio.belotti@alcatel-=
lucent.com&gt;; &quot;Ashok Kunjidhapatham&quot;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DM=
soPlainText>&gt; &gt; &lt;akunjidhapatham@infinera.com&gt;; &quot;Diego Cav=
iglia&quot;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &lt;diego.cavig=
lia@ericsson.com&gt;; &quot;Steve Balls&quot;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoP=
lainText>&gt; &gt; &lt;Steve.Balls@metaswitch.com&gt;; &quot;Ciena - Lyndon=
 Ong&quot; &lt;LyOng@Ciena.com&gt;;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&=
gt; &gt; &lt;fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&gt;; &quot;NSN - Cyril Margaria&quot;<o:p>=
</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &lt;cyril.margaria@nsn.com&gt;;<o:p>=
</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &quot;Li Dan&quot; &lt;huawei.d=
anli@huawei.com&gt;; &quot;Jonathan Hardwick&quot;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &lt;Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com&gt;; &quot;T=
ellabs - Jonathan Sadler&quot;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &=
gt; &lt;jonathan.sadler@tellabs.com&gt;; &quot;Vallinayakam Somasundaram&qu=
ot;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &lt;valli@juniper.net&g=
t;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, June 23,=
 2011 7:21 PM<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: =
RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>=
&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Pietro,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTex=
t>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; If we are talki=
ng about the establishment of LSPs using single-stage<o:p></o:p></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; muxing, I think the only thing necessary is a ne=
w label format, which<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; I<o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; believe is a bit map of tributary s=
lots; i.e., LSP establishment<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; us=
ing<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; single-stage muxing is =
done.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; We have never had a situation such as multi-stag=
e muxing before so we<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; are b=
reaking new ground and we have two choices, either use LSP<o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; hierarchy to establish multiple single-stag=
e sub-layer LSPs<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; explicitly<o:p>=
</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; and sequentially, or include th=
e sub-layer information within the<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&g=
t; Path<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; message for the ODU=
j such that the sub-layers are established<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlai=
nText>&gt; &gt; implicitly and concurrently with the establishment of the O=
DUj.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Either will work, but it seems to me that the lat=
ter is more<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; efficient<o:p></o:p>=
</p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; wrt latency and control plane overhea=
d.&nbsp; The one thing I do not want<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>=
&gt; to<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; do is to say that b=
oth are supported.&nbsp; If we can agree that we will<o:p></o:p></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; only use one method to establish multi-stage LSP=
s, then when a node<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; adverti=
ses multi-stage support in routing, we know how signaling is<o:p></o:p></p>=
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; to<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
&gt; be accomplished.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; J=
ohn<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoP=
lainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITT=
ORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;=
 [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 1:31 AM<o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: John E Drake<o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; =
Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &=
gt; &gt; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;<o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Steve<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMso=
PlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NS=
N - Cyril<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Margaria;<o:p></o:p></=
p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs=
 - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=
 &gt; &gt; Somasundaram; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)<o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single s=
tage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; John,<o:p></o:p></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&g=
t; &gt; &gt; It seems as though you consider on the same level something (H=
-LSP<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; concept) already =
used in CP managing multi-layer with something<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMso=
PlainText>&gt; that<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; do=
es not exist at all.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; O=
perators are used to managed their CP network together with NMS.<o:p></o:p>=
</p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Most of the NMS work per-layer. =
The utilization of a multi-stage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=
 &gt; label<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; would forc=
e NMS to work in another manner with heavy implementation<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; consequences.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D=
MsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;=
 &gt; We should also keep in mind that multi-stage label approach can<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; only<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlai=
nText>&gt; &gt; be<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; use=
d in some cases (not for all the one-hop multi-stage muxing) and<o:p></o:p>=
</p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; it<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainT=
ext>&gt; &gt; &gt; will bring some management issues. Please see the slides=
 that Fatai<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; sent a few=
 days ago.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; For both these reasons the &quot;=
optional&quot; condition of multi-stage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTe=
xt>&gt; label<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; concept =
is absolutely mandatory for us.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Pietro, Serg=
io, Fatai &amp; Daniele<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt=
;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTe=
xt>&gt; &gt; &gt; Pietro Vittorio Grandi<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainT=
ext>&gt; &gt; &gt; Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)<o:p></=
o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Tel: +39 039 686 4930<o:p></=
o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi=
@alcatel-lucent.com<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Put your hand on a hot stove for a minu=
te, and it seems like an<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; hour.<o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sit with a pretty girl =
for an hour, and it seems like a&nbsp; minute.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMso=
PlainText>&gt; &gt; That's<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; =
&gt; relativity.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; (A. E=
instein)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTe=
xt>&gt; &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPl=
ainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: sabato 18 giugno 2011=
 2.40<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: GRANDI, PIET=
RO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &g=
t; &gt; Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;<o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO=
); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainT=
ext>&gt; Steve<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Balls; =
Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Margaria;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &=
gt; &gt; Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam=
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Somasundaram<o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single s=
tage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Pietro,<o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>=
&gt; &gt; &gt; We can certainly say that a node that advertises multistage<=
o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; switching<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; support in routing MUST support multistage s=
ignaling.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></=
p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; As I said before, using mutiple RS=
VP exchanges between the same LSP<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt=
; &gt; &gt; endpoints to establish intermediate switching stages seems ill-=
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; considered and forcin=
g everyone to support two ways of signaling<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPla=
inText>&gt; &gt; &gt; multistage LSPs seems like a really Bad Idea.<o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoP=
lainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; John<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt=
; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent from my iP=
hone<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; On Jun 17, 2011, at 2:55 AM, &quot;GRAN=
DI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;=
 &gt; VITTORIO)&quot; &lt;pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; lucent.com&lt;mailto:pietro_vittorio.gr=
andi@alcatel-lucent.com&gt;&gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Hello John,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D=
MsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;=
 &gt; I understand that you think that the new switching type in routing<o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; should also convey impli=
citly the information that a<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt=
; &gt; multi-stage label is supported.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTex=
t>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; I do =
not agree with this statement.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &=
gt; &gt; Implementations using H-LSPs plus single stage labels are possible=
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; (and<o:p></o:p></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; already standard) and the fact the a node s=
upports<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; the new switch=
ing type is not enough to clearly tell what is<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMso=
PlainText>&gt; &gt; supported.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &=
gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Pietro<o:p></=
o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMso=
PlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; ________________________________<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@junip=
er.net]<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: venerd<s=
pan style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>=A8=AC</span> 17 giugno 2011 2.09<o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITT=
ORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); Daniele Ceccarelli;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPla=
inText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan; BELOTTI, SE=
RGIO (SERGIO);<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Ashok K=
unjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena -<o:p></o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Lyndon<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &g=
t; &gt; Ong'; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&lt;mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&gt;; 'NSN -=
 Cyril<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Margaria'; 'Li =
Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMso=
PlainText>&gt; &gt; Sadler';<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt=
; &gt; Vallinayakam Somasundaram<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=
 &gt; &gt; Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></p>=
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTex=
t>&gt; &gt; &gt; Pietro,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &g=
t;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Actually we are alr=
eady covered.&nbsp;&nbsp; Our advertisements use a<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; different<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &=
gt; &gt; switching type, which is also carried in signaling.&nbsp; This mea=
ns<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; that<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; we<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt=
; &gt; get to define the signaling used for this switching type, and I am<o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; proposing that we use m=
ultistage.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D=
MsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;=
 &gt; John<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTe=
xt>&gt; &gt; &gt; From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)<o:p></o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@=
alcatel-lucent.com]<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Se=
nt: Thursday, June 16, 2011 6:52 AM<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&=
gt; &gt; &gt; To: Daniele Ceccarelli; John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang;=
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Khuzema<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Ku=
njidhapatham; Diego<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Ca=
viglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPl=
ainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&lt;mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&gt=
;; 'NSN - Cyril<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Margar=
ia'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan<o:p></o:p></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Sadler';<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText=
>&gt; &gt; &gt; Vallinayakam Somasundaram<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlain=
Text>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Hi all,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt=
; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; I&nbsp; ag=
ree with Daniele' statement.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt=
; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; in my mind this=
 means that single stage label support is implicit<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; and<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &g=
t; that<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; multi-stage la=
bels should not be used unless a machine explicitly<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; declares the support.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &=
gt; &gt; Pietro<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></=
o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMso=
PlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Pietro Vitto=
rio Grandi<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Terrestrial=
 Optics Portfolio Evolution<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;=
 &gt; Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTex=
t>&gt; &gt; &gt; Tel: +39 039 686 4930<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTex=
t>&gt; &gt; &gt; Mail: &lt;mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com=
&gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; pietro_vittorio.g=
randi@alcatel-<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; lucent.=
com&lt;mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com&gt;<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; hour.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText=
>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a&nbs=
p; minute.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; That's<o:p></o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; relativity.<o:p></o:p></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; (A. Einstein)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &=
gt; ________________________________<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>=
&gt; &gt; &gt; From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson=
.com]<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: gioved<spa=
n style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>=A8=AC</span> 16 giugno 2011 15.48<o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: John E Drake; Rajan =
Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&=
gt; BELOTTI,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; SERGIO (S=
ERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO<o:p></o:p></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; (PIETRO<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&g=
t; &gt; &gt; VITTORIO); Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong'=
;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&=
lt;mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&gt;; 'NSN - Cyril<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellab=
s - Jonathan<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Sadler';<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Vallinayakam Somasundaram<o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: RSVP OTN singl=
e stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;=
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Starting a new thread=
 as we're now moving to signaling...<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>=
&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Assumin=
g we still have not decided whether we're going to support<o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; single stage only, multi stage only or=
 both of them i believe that<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; as<=
o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; per OSPF we need to co=
nsider backward compatibility.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &=
gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; An implementa=
tion RFC4328 based (that we've explicitly been told<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; not<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; to=
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; deprecate) is single =
stage based, so in case of multi stage only or<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMso=
PlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; multi-stage + single stage we should be able to co=
ver backward<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; compatibi=
lity issues somehow.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; BR<o:p></o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Daniele<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainT=
ext>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; ___=
_____________________________<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &g=
t; &gt; From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]<o:p></o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: gioved<span style=3D'font-family:"Co=
urier New"'>=A8=AC</span> 16 giugno 2011 8.53<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoP=
lainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; Khu=
zema Pithewan;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; 'BELOTT=
I, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlain=
Text>&gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego =
Caviglia;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; 'Steve<o:p></o:p>=
</p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';<o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&lt;m=
ailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&gt;; 'NSN - Cyril<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPla=
inText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - =
Jonathan<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Sadler';<o:p></o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Vallinayakam Somasundaram<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Latest version=
 of the OTN OSPF draft (support for<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&=
gt; multi-<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; stage Vs Si=
ngle Stage labels)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Raj=
an,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; I didn't want to allow interoperability =
options.&nbsp; I much preferred<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
to<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; say that we do sign=
aling in one way only, using multistage labels.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; These are also needed for signaling within&nbsp; =
hierarchical LSPs.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&=
gt; &gt; &gt; John<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent from my iPhone<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; From: Rajan Rao [mailto:rrao@infinera.com]<o:p></=
o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 20=
11 10:46 PM<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: Daniel=
e Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; John E Drake; Khuzema<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DM=
soPlainText>&gt; Pithewan;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; =
&gt; 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham<o:p></o:p></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTOR=
IO)'; Diego Caviglia;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; 'Stev=
e<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyn=
don Ong';<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; fu.xihua@zte=
.com.cn&lt;mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&gt;; 'NSN - Cyril<o:p></o:p></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick';=
 'Tellabs - Jonathan<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Sadler=
';<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Vallinayakam Somasu=
ndaram<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: RE: La=
test version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oPlainText>&gt; multi-<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;=
 stage Vs Single Stage labels)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &=
gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Hi,<o:p></o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPla=
inText>&gt; &gt; &gt; While we are making updates, let us discuss support r=
equired in<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; link<o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; advertisement for single/multi-stage l=
abel options:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Given that there is interest i=
n both multi-stage label and single-<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>=
&gt; &gt; stage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; with H=
-LSPs, we should consider inclusion of a FLAG to indicate<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; what<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &=
gt; &gt; the link is capable of.&nbsp; This will address some of the issues=
 we<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; have<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; discussed in the past relating to path compu=
tation involving NEs<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; with<o:p></=
o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; different capabilities (inte=
r-op).<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Thanks<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPl=
ainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Rajan<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; ___=
____________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPl=
ainText>&gt; CCAMP mailing list<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
CCAMP@ietf.org<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; https://www.ietf.=
org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; _____=
__________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlai=
nText>&gt; CCAMP mailing list<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; CC=
AMP@ietf.org<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/ccamp<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>____________=
___________________________________<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>C=
CAMP mailing list<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>CCAMP@ietf.org<o:p>=
</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cca=
mp<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></body></html>=

--_000_5E893DB832F57341992548CDBB333163A0A899F37BEMBX01HQjnprn_--

--_004_5E893DB832F57341992548CDBB333163A0A899F37BEMBX01HQjnprn_
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From jdrake@juniper.net  Wed Jun 29 08:55:50 2011
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>, CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 08:52:51 -0700
Thread-Topic: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Comments inline.

Sent from my iPhone

> -----Original Message-----
> From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 12:42 AM
> To: CCAMP
> Cc: John E Drake; Igor Bryskin; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); GRANDI,
> PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
>
> Hello Igor,
>
> The discussion is all in deciding whether to consider the
> support of multi-stage label as optional or mandatory.
>
> Support of multi-stage labels have consequences that include:
> 1) the fact that it is not possible to protect intermediate layers
> either via protection or restoration. This restricts the application
> field of the concept in such a way that it can be considered an
> optimization applicable to specific cases.

JD:  As I have said before, for the new construct we are dealing with, viz,=
 a containing hierarchical LSP with one or more sub-layer LSPs between the =
same two endpoints, it is not possible to protect the individual sub-layer =
LSPs outside the context of the containing hierarchical LSP.

>
> 2) Heavy impacts on transport network management systems that are
> currently based on "per layer management" and should work in a very
> different way.

JD:  The construct defined above is new and management systems will have to=
 be modified to understand it.

> Last but not least, the OTN architecture allows explicitly the "per
> layer"
> management, that is the reference for transport networks. Every GMPLS
> implementation has to be consistent with this reference.

JD:  The containing hierarchical LSP with multiple sub-layer LSPs, regardle=
ss of which of the two proposals being discussed for establishing the sub-l=
ayer LSPs, has nothing whatever to do with layer management.

>
> In conclusion, the usage of the multi-stage label  should be considered
> as optional and the support should be clearly stated via an appropriate
> advertising.
>
> Unfortunately, contrary to  point 3), someone insists in forcing the
> usage and support of multi-stage labels as mandatory.
>
> The point in discussion is all here.
>
> Best Regards
> Pietro & Sergio
>
>
> Hi Pietro,
>
> You may not like John's tone, but emotions aside, what he keeps saying
> repeatedly in this discussion does make perfect sense to me.
> 1) The point of CP signaling is to convey information pertinent to
> network element provisioning in most efficient way. It does seem stupid
> to signal numerous one hop hierarchical LSPs (when it is sufficient a
> single end-to-end round of signaling to do the job), create and support
> numerous extra CP states, take care of all restart implications, etc.
> just to be consistent with RFC_XYZ written 10 years ago;
>
> 2) Besides, you can think of multi-stage label as identification of a
> new type of network resources controlled by GMPLS. Even the GMPLS god-
> fathers would agree that they never meant to limit GMPLS to control the
> resources described in early CCAMP RFCs.
> 3) Finally, no one ever said that you cannot orchestrate multi-stage
> provisioning through the hierarchy of LSPs if you choose to do so.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 10:43 AM
> To: John E Drake
> Cc: CCAMP
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
> Hello John,
>
> 1) You have forwarded to the CCamp mailing list a number of private
> mails without asking the permission to the involved people. This is
> impolite and unprofessional.
>
> 2) You are creating spam on the mailing list forwarding four threads
> that are each hundreds of lines long and very complicated to follow for
> people not involved in the discussion since the beginning. Moreover,
> this happened after a discussion from scratch was already started in
> the mailing list.
>
> 3) You moved from a technical discussion to arrogant and deliberate
> personal offenses not supported by any sound technical motivation as
> reported in your mails and snipped below:
>
> "This shows a complete lack of understanding of hierarchical LSP,
> multi-stage labels, and GMPLS in general.  It is so bad it is not even
> wrong."
>
> " It might be more precise to say I reviewed your slides and found
> them, shall we say, lacking."
>
> We hope that from now on the discussion can be continued from a purely
> technical point of view.
>
> Pietro, Sergio and Daniele
>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
> Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute. That's
> relativity.
> (A. Einstein)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of John E Drake
> Sent: marted=EC 28 giugno 2011 14.13
> To: CCAMP
> Subject: [CCAMP] FW: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John E Drake
> Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 3:56 PM
> To: 'Fatai Zhang'; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan
> Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -
> Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham; BELOTTI,
> SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli
> Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
> Fatai,
>
> Comments inline.
>
> Thanks,
>
> John
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Fatai Zhang [mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 9:45 AM
> > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); John E Drake
> > Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan
> > Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -
> > Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham;
> BELOTTI,
> > SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli
> > Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > Hi John,
> >
> > I guess that you did not review our slides carefully.
>
> JD:  I will let this pass.
>
> >
> > You just see the only advantage for the corner case (i.e., establish
> > multi-layers LSP concurrently), but you did not see the issues that
> we
> > described in the slides and the issues that Jonathan mentioned (eg.,
> > OAM/protection issues).
>
> JD:  I'm sorry that I didn't provide enough context.  I don't think the
> one-hop hierarchical LSP case, w/ or w/o multi-stage labels is either
> interesting or common and it was not the case to which I was addressing
> my comments.  Rather, I was describing two ways of establishing multi-
> hop multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.  As far as I can tell the issues
> Jonathan raised in this context are red herrings rather than blue
> whales.  Furthermore, regardless of which of the two approaches I
> described is used, the issues, if any, would be exactly the same.
>
> >
> > In addition, we have repeated many times that LSP hierarchy must be
> > used in many cases, even though we have multi-stage label approach.
> > E.g., an ODU0 connection request from A to E through B, C and D, but
> B,
> > C and  D (or one of them ) can not support ODU0 switching, the HO
> ODUj
> > (ODU1 or ODU2 or ODU3 or ODU4) LSP must be created between B and D
> > through LSP hierarchy. This example is very simple and there are lots
> > of transforms for this example to use LSP hierarchy.
>
> JD:  Please see above.  I completely agree with you and was simply
> pointing out that multi-stage labels can be used to improve wrt latency
> and control plane overhead, the establishment of ODUj LSPs within
> multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Fatai
> >
> > Thanks
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John E Drake" <jdrake@juniper.net>
> > To: "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)"
> > <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > Cc: "Daniele Ceccarelli" <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>; "Rajan
> Rao"
> > <rrao@infinera.com>; "Fatai Zhang" <zhangfatai@huawei.com>; "Khuzema
> > Pithewan" <kpithewan@infinera.com>; "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)"
> > <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>; "Ashok Kunjidhapatham"
> > <akunjidhapatham@infinera.com>; "Diego Caviglia"
> > <diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>; "Steve Balls"
> > <Steve.Balls@metaswitch.com>; "Ciena - Lyndon Ong" <LyOng@Ciena.com>;
> > <fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; "NSN - Cyril Margaria"
> <cyril.margaria@nsn.com>;
> > "Li Dan" <huawei.danli@huawei.com>; "Jonathan Hardwick"
> > <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>; "Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler"
> > <jonathan.sadler@tellabs.com>; "Vallinayakam Somasundaram"
> > <valli@juniper.net>
> > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 7:21 PM
> > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> >
> > Pietro,
> >
> > If we are talking about the establishment of LSPs using single-stage
> > muxing, I think the only thing necessary is a new label format, which
> I
> > believe is a bit map of tributary slots; i.e., LSP establishment
> using
> > single-stage muxing is done.
> >
> > We have never had a situation such as multi-stage muxing before so we
> > are breaking new ground and we have two choices, either use LSP
> > hierarchy to establish multiple single-stage sub-layer LSPs
> explicitly
> > and sequentially, or include the sub-layer information within the
> Path
> > message for the ODUj such that the sub-layers are established
> > implicitly and concurrently with the establishment of the ODUj.
> >
> > Either will work, but it seems to me that the latter is more
> efficient
> > wrt latency and control plane overhead.  The one thing I do not want
> to
> > do is to say that both are supported.  If we can agree that we will
> > only use one method to establish multi-stage LSPs, then when a node
> > advertises multi-stage support in routing, we know how signaling is
> to
> > be accomplished.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > John
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 1:31 AM
> > > To: John E Drake
> > > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;
> Steve
> > > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril
> Margaria;
> > > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam
> > > Somasundaram; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > John,
> > >
> > > It seems as though you consider on the same level something (H-LSP
> > > concept) already used in CP managing multi-layer with something
> that
> > > does not exist at all.
> > > Operators are used to managed their CP network together with NMS.
> > > Most of the NMS work per-layer. The utilization of a multi-stage
> > label
> > > would force NMS to work in another manner with heavy implementation
> > > consequences.
> > >
> > > We should also keep in mind that multi-stage label approach can
> only
> > be
> > > used in some cases (not for all the one-hop multi-stage muxing) and
> > it
> > > will bring some management issues. Please see the slides that Fatai
> > > sent a few days ago.
> > >
> > > For both these reasons the "optional" condition of multi-stage
> label
> > > concept is absolutely mandatory for us.
> > >
> > > Pietro, Sergio, Fatai & Daniele
> > >
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> > > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> > > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> > > Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> > > Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an
> hour.
> > > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.
> > That's
> > > relativity.
> > > (A. Einstein)
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > > Sent: sabato 18 giugno 2011 2.40
> > > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;
> Steve
> > > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril
> Margaria;
> > > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam
> > > Somasundaram
> > > Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Pietro,
> > >
> > > We can certainly say that a node that advertises multistage
> switching
> > > support in routing MUST support multistage signaling.
> > >
> > > As I said before, using mutiple RSVP exchanges between the same LSP
> > > endpoints to establish intermediate switching stages seems ill-
> > > considered and forcing everyone to support two ways of signaling
> > > multistage LSPs seems like a really Bad Idea.
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > On Jun 17, 2011, at 2:55 AM, "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO
> > > VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-
> > > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello John,
> > >
> > > I understand that you think that the new switching type in routing
> > > should also convey implicitly the information that a
> > > multi-stage label is supported.
> > >
> > > I do not agree with this statement.
> > > Implementations using H-LSPs plus single stage labels are possible
> > (and
> > > already standard) and the fact the a node supports
> > > the new switching type is not enough to clearly tell what is
> > supported.
> > >
> > > Pietro
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > > Sent: venerd=EC 17 giugno 2011 2.09
> > > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); Daniele Ceccarelli;
> > > Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO);
> > > Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena -
> Lyndon
> > > Ong'; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Pietro,
> > >
> > > Actually we are already covered.   Our advertisements use a
> different
> > > switching type, which is also carried in signaling.  This means
> that
> > we
> > > get to define the signaling used for this switching type, and I am
> > > proposing that we use multistage.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 6:52 AM
> > > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang;
> Khuzema
> > > Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego
> > > Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I  agree with Daniele' statement.
> > >
> > > in my mind this means that single stage label support is implicit
> and
> > > that
> > > multi-stage labels should not be used unless a machine explicitly
> > > declares the support.
> > >
> > > Pietro
> > >
> > >
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> > > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> > > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> > > Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> > > Mail: <mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > > pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-
> > > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an
> hour.
> > > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.
> > That's
> > > relativity.
> > > (A. Einstein)
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]
> > > Sent: gioved=EC 16 giugno 2011 15.48
> > > To: John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> BELOTTI,
> > > SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO
> > (PIETRO
> > > VITTORIO); Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Starting a new thread as we're now moving to signaling...
> > >
> > > Assuming we still have not decided whether we're going to support
> > > single stage only, multi stage only or both of them i believe that
> as
> > > per OSPF we need to consider backward compatibility.
> > >
> > > An implementation RFC4328 based (that we've explicitly been told
> not
> > to
> > > deprecate) is single stage based, so in case of multi stage only or
> > > multi-stage + single stage we should be able to cover backward
> > > compatibility issues somehow.
> > >
> > > BR
> > > Daniele
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > > Sent: gioved=EC 16 giugno 2011 8.53
> > > To: Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham
> > > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;
> > 'Steve
> > > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for
> multi-
> > > stage Vs Single Stage labels)
> > > Rajan,
> > >
> > > I didn't want to allow interoperability options.  I much preferred
> to
> > > say that we do signaling in one way only, using multistage labels.
> > > These are also needed for signaling within  hierarchical LSPs.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > From: Rajan Rao [mailto:rrao@infinera.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 10:46 PM
> > > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; John E Drake; Khuzema
> Pithewan;
> > > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham
> > > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;
> > 'Steve
> > > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for
> multi-
> > > stage Vs Single Stage labels)
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > While we are making updates, let us discuss support required in
> link
> > > advertisement for single/multi-stage label options:
> > >
> > > Given that there is interest in both multi-stage label and single-
> > stage
> > > with H-LSPs, we should consider inclusion of a FLAG to indicate
> what
> > > the link is capable of.  This will address some of the issues we
> have
> > > discussed in the past relating to path computation involving NEs
> with
> > > different capabilities (inter-op).
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Rajan
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

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Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-asymm-bw-bidir-lsps-bis-02.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane =
Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : GMPLS Asymmetric Bandwidth Bidirectional Label Switched =
Paths (LSPs)
	Author(s)       : Attila Takacs
                          Lou Berger
                          Diego Caviglia
                          Don Fedyk
                          Julien Meuric
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-asymm-bw-bidir-lsps-bis-02.txt
	Pages           : 15
	Date            : 2011-06-29

   This document defines a method for the support of GMPLS asymmetric
   bandwidth bidirectional Label Switched Paths (LSPs).  The presented
   approach is applicable to any switching technology and builds on the
   original Resource Reservation Protocol (RSVP) model for the transport
   of traffic-related parameters.  This document moves the experiment
   documented in RFC 5467 to the standards track and obsoletes RFC 5467.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-asymm-bw-bidir-lsps-bi=
s-02.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-asymm-bw-bidir-lsps-bis=
-02.txt

From fu.xihua@zte.com.cn  Wed Jun 29 18:49:19 2011
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Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 10:24:42 +0800
From: Fatai Zhang <zhangfatai@huawei.com>
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To: 'John E Drake' <jdrake@juniper.net>, 'Igor Bryskin' <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>, "'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO	VITTORIO)'" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Hi John,

=20

So, you admit that ODU0->ODU2->ODU3 cannot be created directly by
multi-stage label approach if there is no hierarchical ODU3 before ODU0
request? because you assume that a hierarchical ODU3 (FA) is already =
there.

=20

A few points for clarification, even though I follow your thought.

=20

How to create the ODU3 FA before ODU0 request? I think it is still H-LSP
concept there.

=20

If ODU3 FA between B and D is already there, the FA should be regarded =
as
one-hop, because there is no difference between one-hop FA and one-hop =
link.
So, this scenario should be treated as one-hop scenario rather than
multi-hop (Please pay attention to this sentence that we are trying to =
make
you understood many times).

=20

If ODU3 between B and D is already there based on this example, why it =
needs
to use two stage muxing (ODU0->ODU2->ODU3), why not just use the simple =
one
stage muxing (ie.,ODU0->ODU3)?  Please review our slides again to get =
more
information about cons of multi-stage muxing(slide 5).

=20

=20

=20

=20

Thanks
=20
Fatai

=20

From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]=20
Sent: 2011=C4=EA6=D4=C229=C8=D5 23:39
To: Fatai Zhang; 'Igor Bryskin'; 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO =
VITTORIO)'
Cc: 'CCAMP'
Subject: RE: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

=20

Fatai,

=20

Let=A1=AFs assume we have a containing hierarchical ODU3 between node B =
and node
D over which we want to establish and ODU0.  Using the sub-layer
hierarchical LSP approach, we would signal a sub-layer ODU2 hierarchical =
LSP
between B and D and then signal the ODU0.  With multi-stage labels we =
would
signal the ODU0 and include an ODU2 multi-stage label.

=20

As I have repeatedly said, either can be made to work with some non-zero
amount of effort, but my preference is for multi-stage labels, strictly =
from
an efficiency perspective.  There isn=A1=AFt enough difference between =
the two
approaches to warrant standardizing both.

=20

Thanks,

=20

John

=20

Sent from my iPhone

=20

From: Fatai Zhang [mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 1:59 AM
To: John E Drake; 'Igor Bryskin'; 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO
VITTORIO)'
Cc: 'CCAMP'
Subject: RE: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

=20

Hi John,

=20

Agree with Igor that let emotions aside if there was some improper =
wording.
Let=A1=AFs discuss tech.

=20

Could you clarify your point 1) a little more? Here is a simple example
shown below.=20

=20

Could you explain how to create ODU0 connection from Node A to Node E by
multi-stage labels approach? What information (e.g., traffic parameters,
labels) should be carried in the Path or Resv message? What action =
should be
taken for Node C when receiving the Path or Resv message?

=20

=20

=20



=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

Thanks

=20

Fatai

=20

=20

-----Original Message-----
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of
John E Drake
Sent: 2011=C4=EA6=D4=C229=C8=D5 6:12
To: Igor Bryskin; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
Cc: CCAMP
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

=20

Igor,

=20

I have a few clarifications.

=20

1)  Multi-stage labels apply equally well to multi-hop hierarchical =
LSPs.
(The is the point some people do not seem to understand.)

=20

2)  It is incorrect to say that LSP hierarchy, as is, just works for the
establishment of a hierarchical LSP that supports multi-stage switching.
This involves a nested set of hierarchical LSPs, the containing =
hierarchical
LSP and the set of sub-layer LSPs which provide context for intermediate
stage labels, between the same two endpoints.  This is a new construct =
and
there are almost certainly details to be worked out.

=20

3)  I don't think we should standardize both approaches.  I would prefer
that the working group pick one to standardize.

=20

Thanks,

=20

John

=20

Sent from my iPhone

=20

=20

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com]

> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 9:24 AM

> To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); John E Drake

> Cc: CCAMP

> Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

>=20

> Hi Pietro,

>=20

> You may not like John's tone, but emotions aside, what he keeps saying

> repeatedly in this discussion does make perfect sense to me.

> 1) The point of CP signaling is to convey information pertinent to

> network element provisioning in most efficient way. It does seem =
stupid

> to signal numerous one hop hierarchical LSPs (when it is sufficient a

> single end-to-end round of signaling to do the job), create and =
support

> numerous extra CP states, take care of all restart implications, etc.

> just to be consistent with RFC_XYZ written 10 years ago;

> 2) Besides, you can think of multi-stage label as identification of a

> new type of network resources controlled by GMPLS. Even the GMPLS god-

> fathers would agree that they never meant to limit GMPLS to control =
the

> resources described in early CCAMP RFCs.

> 3) Finally, no one ever said that you cannot orchestrate multi-stage

> provisioning through the hierarchy of LSPs if you choose to do so.

>=20

> Cheers,

> Igor

>=20

> -----Original Message-----

> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf

> Of GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)

> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 10:43 AM

> To: John E Drake

> Cc: CCAMP

> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

>=20

> Hello John,

>=20

> 1) You have forwarded to the CCamp mailing list a number of private

> mails without asking the permission to the involved people. This is

> impolite and unprofessional.

>=20

> 2) You are creating spam on the mailing list forwarding four threads

> that are each hundreds of lines long and very complicated to follow =
for

> people not involved in the discussion since the beginning. Moreover,

> this happened after a discussion from scratch was already started in

> the mailing list.

>=20

> 3) You moved from a technical discussion to arrogant and deliberate

> personal offenses not supported by any sound technical motivation as

> reported in your mails and snipped below:

>=20

> "This shows a complete lack of understanding of hierarchical LSP,

> multi-stage labels, and GMPLS in general.  It is so bad it is not even

> wrong."

>=20

> " It might be more precise to say I reviewed your slides and found

> them, shall we say, lacking."

>=20

> We hope that from now on the discussion can be continued from a purely

> technical point of view.

>=20

> Pietro, Sergio and Daniele

>=20

> =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

> Pietro Vittorio Grandi

> Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution

> Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)

> Tel: +39 039 686 4930

> Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com

> =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

> Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.

> Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute. =
That's

> relativity.

> (A. Einstein)

>=20

> -----Original Message-----

> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf

> Of John E Drake

> Sent: marted=A8=AC 28 giugno 2011 14.13

> To: CCAMP

> Subject: [CCAMP] FW: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

>=20

>=20

>=20

> Sent from my iPhone

>=20

>=20

> -----Original Message-----

> From: John E Drake

> Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 3:56 PM

> To: 'Fatai Zhang'; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)

> Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan

> Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -

> Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham; =
BELOTTI,

> SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli

> Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

>=20

> Fatai,

>=20

> Comments inline.

>=20

> Thanks,

>=20

> John

>=20

> Sent from my iPhone

>=20

>=20

> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: Fatai Zhang [mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com]

> > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 9:45 AM

> > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); John E Drake

> > Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan

> > Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -

> > Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham;

> BELOTTI,

> > SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli

> > Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

> >

> > Hi John,

> >

> > I guess that you did not review our slides carefully.

>=20

> JD:  I will let this pass.

>=20

> >

> > You just see the only advantage for the corner case (i.e., establish

> > multi-layers LSP concurrently), but you did not see the issues that

> we

> > described in the slides and the issues that Jonathan mentioned (eg.,

> > OAM/protection issues).

>=20

> JD:  I'm sorry that I didn't provide enough context.  I don't think =
the

> one-hop hierarchical LSP case, w/ or w/o multi-stage labels is either

> interesting or common and it was not the case to which I was =
addressing

> my comments.  Rather, I was describing two ways of establishing multi-

> hop multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.  As far as I can tell the issues

> Jonathan raised in this context are red herrings rather than blue

> whales.  Furthermore, regardless of which of the two approaches I

> described is used, the issues, if any, would be exactly the same.

>=20

> >

> > In addition, we have repeated many times that LSP hierarchy must be

> > used in many cases, even though we have multi-stage label approach.

> > E.g., an ODU0 connection request from A to E through B, C and D, but

> B,

> > C and  D (or one of them ) can not support ODU0 switching, the HO

> ODUj

> > (ODU1 or ODU2 or ODU3 or ODU4) LSP must be created between B and D

> > through LSP hierarchy. This example is very simple and there are =
lots

> > of transforms for this example to use LSP hierarchy.

>=20

> JD:  Please see above.  I completely agree with you and was simply

> pointing out that multi-stage labels can be used to improve wrt =
latency

> and control plane overhead, the establishment of ODUj LSPs within

> multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.

>=20

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Fatai

> >

> > Thanks

> > ----- Original Message -----

> > From: "John E Drake" <jdrake@juniper.net>

> > To: "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)"

> > <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>

> > Cc: "Daniele Ceccarelli" <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>; "Rajan

> Rao"

> > <rrao@infinera.com>; "Fatai Zhang" <zhangfatai@huawei.com>; "Khuzema

> > Pithewan" <kpithewan@infinera.com>; "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)"

> > <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>; "Ashok Kunjidhapatham"

> > <akunjidhapatham@infinera.com>; "Diego Caviglia"

> > <diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>; "Steve Balls"

> > <Steve.Balls@metaswitch.com>; "Ciena - Lyndon Ong" =
<LyOng@Ciena.com>;

> > <fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; "NSN - Cyril Margaria"

> <cyril.margaria@nsn.com>;

> > "Li Dan" <huawei.danli@huawei.com>; "Jonathan Hardwick"

> > <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>; "Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler"

> > <jonathan.sadler@tellabs.com>; "Vallinayakam Somasundaram"

> > <valli@juniper.net>

> > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 7:21 PM

> > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

> >

> >

> > Pietro,

> >

> > If we are talking about the establishment of LSPs using single-stage

> > muxing, I think the only thing necessary is a new label format, =
which

> I

> > believe is a bit map of tributary slots; i.e., LSP establishment

> using

> > single-stage muxing is done.

> >

> > We have never had a situation such as multi-stage muxing before so =
we

> > are breaking new ground and we have two choices, either use LSP

> > hierarchy to establish multiple single-stage sub-layer LSPs

> explicitly

> > and sequentially, or include the sub-layer information within the

> Path

> > message for the ODUj such that the sub-layers are established

> > implicitly and concurrently with the establishment of the ODUj.

> >

> > Either will work, but it seems to me that the latter is more

> efficient

> > wrt latency and control plane overhead.  The one thing I do not want

> to

> > do is to say that both are supported.  If we can agree that we will

> > only use one method to establish multi-stage LSPs, then when a node

> > advertises multi-stage support in routing, we know how signaling is

> to

> > be accomplished.

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

> > John

> >

> > Sent from my iPhone

> >

> >

> > > -----Original Message-----

> > > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)

> > > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]

> > > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 1:31 AM

> > > To: John E Drake

> > > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;

> > > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;

> Steve

> > > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril

> Margaria;

> > > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam

> > > Somasundaram; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)

> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

> > >

> > > John,

> > >

> > > It seems as though you consider on the same level something (H-LSP

> > > concept) already used in CP managing multi-layer with something

> that

> > > does not exist at all.

> > > Operators are used to managed their CP network together with NMS.

> > > Most of the NMS work per-layer. The utilization of a multi-stage

> > label

> > > would force NMS to work in another manner with heavy =
implementation

> > > consequences.

> > >

> > > We should also keep in mind that multi-stage label approach can

> only

> > be

> > > used in some cases (not for all the one-hop multi-stage muxing) =
and

> > it

> > > will bring some management issues. Please see the slides that =
Fatai

> > > sent a few days ago.

> > >

> > > For both these reasons the "optional" condition of multi-stage

> label

> > > concept is absolutely mandatory for us.

> > >

> > > Pietro, Sergio, Fatai & Daniele

> > >

> > > =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

> > > Pietro Vittorio Grandi

> > > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution

> > > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)

> > > Tel: +39 039 686 4930

> > > Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com

> > > =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

> > > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an

> hour.

> > > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.

> > That's

> > > relativity.

> > > (A. Einstein)

> > >

> > >

> > > -----Original Message-----

> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]

> > > Sent: sabato 18 giugno 2011 2.40

> > > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)

> > > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;

> > > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;

> Steve

> > > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril

> Margaria;

> > > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam

> > > Somasundaram

> > > Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

> > >

> > > Pietro,

> > >

> > > We can certainly say that a node that advertises multistage

> switching

> > > support in routing MUST support multistage signaling.

> > >

> > > As I said before, using mutiple RSVP exchanges between the same =
LSP

> > > endpoints to establish intermediate switching stages seems ill-

> > > considered and forcing everyone to support two ways of signaling

> > > multistage LSPs seems like a really Bad Idea.

> > >

> > > John

> > >

> > > Sent from my iPhone

> > >

> > > On Jun 17, 2011, at 2:55 AM, "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO

> > > VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-

> > > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>>

> wrote:

> > >

> > > Hello John,

> > >

> > > I understand that you think that the new switching type in routing

> > > should also convey implicitly the information that a

> > > multi-stage label is supported.

> > >

> > > I do not agree with this statement.

> > > Implementations using H-LSPs plus single stage labels are possible

> > (and

> > > already standard) and the fact the a node supports

> > > the new switching type is not enough to clearly tell what is

> > supported.

> > >

> > > Pietro

> > >

> > > ________________________________

> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]

> > > Sent: venerd=A8=AC 17 giugno 2011 2.09

> > > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); Daniele Ceccarelli;

> > > Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO =
(SERGIO);

> > > Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena -

> Lyndon

> > > Ong'; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - =
Cyril

> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan

> > Sadler';

> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram

> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

> > >

> > > Pietro,

> > >

> > > Actually we are already covered.   Our advertisements use a

> different

> > > switching type, which is also carried in signaling.  This means

> that

> > we

> > > get to define the signaling used for this switching type, and I am

> > > proposing that we use multistage.

> > >

> > > Thanks,

> > >

> > > John

> > >

> > > Sent from my iPhone

> > >

> > > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)

> > > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]

> > > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 6:52 AM

> > > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang;

> Khuzema

> > > Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego

> > > Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';

> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril

> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan

> > Sadler';

> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram

> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

> > >

> > > Hi all,

> > >

> > > I  agree with Daniele' statement.

> > >

> > > in my mind this means that single stage label support is implicit

> and

> > > that

> > > multi-stage labels should not be used unless a machine explicitly

> > > declares the support.

> > >

> > > Pietro

> > >

> > >

> > > =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

> > > Pietro Vittorio Grandi

> > > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution

> > > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)

> > > Tel: +39 039 686 4930

> > > Mail: <mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>

> > > pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-

> > > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>

> > > =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

> > > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an

> hour.

> > > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.

> > That's

> > > relativity.

> > > (A. Einstein)

> > >

> > > ________________________________

> > > From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]

> > > Sent: gioved=A8=AC 16 giugno 2011 15.48

> > > To: John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;

> BELOTTI,

> > > SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO

> > (PIETRO

> > > VITTORIO); Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';

> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril

> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan

> > Sadler';

> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram

> > > Subject: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

> > >

> > > Starting a new thread as we're now moving to signaling...

> > >

> > > Assuming we still have not decided whether we're going to support

> > > single stage only, multi stage only or both of them i believe that

> as

> > > per OSPF we need to consider backward compatibility.

> > >

> > > An implementation RFC4328 based (that we've explicitly been told

> not

> > to

> > > deprecate) is single stage based, so in case of multi stage only =
or

> > > multi-stage + single stage we should be able to cover backward

> > > compatibility issues somehow.

> > >

> > > BR

> > > Daniele

> > >

> > > ________________________________

> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]

> > > Sent: gioved=A8=AC 16 giugno 2011 8.53

> > > To: Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;

> > > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham

> > > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;

> > 'Steve

> > > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';

> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril

> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan

> > Sadler';

> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram

> > > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for

> multi-

> > > stage Vs Single Stage labels)

> > > Rajan,

> > >

> > > I didn't want to allow interoperability options.  I much preferred

> to

> > > say that we do signaling in one way only, using multistage labels.

> > > These are also needed for signaling within  hierarchical LSPs.

> > >

> > > Thanks,

> > >

> > > John

> > >

> > > Sent from my iPhone

> > >

> > > From: Rajan Rao [mailto:rrao@infinera.com]

> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 10:46 PM

> > > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; John E Drake; Khuzema

> Pithewan;

> > > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham

> > > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;

> > 'Steve

> > > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';

> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril

> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan

> > Sadler';

> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram

> > > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for

> multi-

> > > stage Vs Single Stage labels)

> > >

> > > Hi,

> > >

> > > While we are making updates, let us discuss support required in

> link

> > > advertisement for single/multi-stage label options:

> > >

> > > Given that there is interest in both multi-stage label and single-

> > stage

> > > with H-LSPs, we should consider inclusion of a FLAG to indicate

> what

> > > the link is capable of.  This will address some of the issues we

> have

> > > discussed in the past relating to path computation involving NEs

> with

> > > different capabilities (inter-op).

> > >

> > > Thanks

> > > Rajan

> _______________________________________________

> CCAMP mailing list

> CCAMP@ietf.org

> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

> _______________________________________________

> CCAMP mailing list

> CCAMP@ietf.org

> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

_______________________________________________

CCAMP mailing list

CCAMP@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp


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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DZH-CN link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple style=3D'text-justify-trim:punctuation'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Hi John,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>So, you =
admit that ODU0-&gt;ODU2-&gt;ODU3 cannot be created directly by =
multi-stage label approach if there is no hierarchical ODU3 before ODU0 =
request? because you assume that a hierarchical ODU3 (FA) is already =
there.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>A few =
points for clarification, even though I follow your =
thought.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>How to =
create the ODU3 FA before ODU0 </span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>request</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>? I think it is still H-LSP concept =
there.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>If ODU3 =
FA between B and D is already there, the FA should be regarded as =
one-hop, because there is no difference between one-hop FA and one-hop =
link. So, this scenario should be treated as one-hop scenario rather =
than multi-hop (Please pay attention to this sentence that we are trying =
to make you understood many times).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>If ODU3 =
between B and D is already there based on this example, why it needs to =
use two stage muxing (ODU0-&gt;ODU2-&gt;ODU3), why not just use the =
simple one stage muxing (ie.,ODU0-&gt;ODU3)? &nbsp;Please review our =
slides again to get more information about cons of multi-stage =
muxing(slide 5).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Thanks<br>&nbsp;<br>Fatai</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft =
style=3D'text-align:left'><b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> John E =
Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net] <br><b>Sent:</b> 2011</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5'>=C4=EA</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>6</span><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5'>=D4=C2</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>29</span><sp=
an =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5'>=C8=D5</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
23:39<br><b>To:</b> Fatai Zhang; 'Igor Bryskin'; 'GRANDI, PIETRO =
VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'<br><b>Cc:</b> 'CCAMP'<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: =
[CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi =
stage<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft =
style=3D'text-align:left'><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Fatai,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Let=A1=AFs assume we have a =
containing hierarchical ODU3 between node B and node D over which we =
want to establish and ODU0.&nbsp; Using the sub-layer hierarchical LSP =
approach, we would signal a sub-layer ODU2 hierarchical LSP between B =
and D and then signal the ODU0.&nbsp; With multi-stage labels we would =
signal the ODU0 and include an ODU2 multi-stage =
label.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>As I have repeatedly said, =
either can be made to work with some non-zero amount of effort, but my =
preference is for multi-stage labels, strictly from an efficiency =
perspective.&nbsp; There isn=A1=AFt enough difference between the two =
approaches to warrant standardizing both.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>John<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div=
><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Sent from my =
iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div=
 style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft =
style=3D'text-align:left'><b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Fatai =
Zhang [mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June =
29, 2011 1:59 AM<br><b>To:</b> John E Drake; 'Igor Bryskin'; 'GRANDI, =
PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'<br><b>Cc:</b> =
'CCAMP'<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi =
stage<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft =
style=3D'text-align:left'><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Hi John,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Agree with Igor that let emotions aside if there was some =
improper wording. Let</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>=A1=AF</span><span lang=3DEN-US>s =
discuss tech.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Could you clarify your point 1) a little more? Here is a =
simple example shown below. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>Could you explain how to create =
ODU0 connection from Node A to Node E by multi-stage labels approach? =
What information (e.g., traffic parameters, labels) should be carried in =
the Path or Resv message? What action should be taken for Node C when =
receiving the Path or Resv message?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US><img width=3D926 height=3D226 =
id=3D"Picture_x0020_1" =
src=3D"cid:image001.png@01CC370D.37E57970"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New"'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>Fatai<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>-----Original =
Message-----<br>From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org =
[mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of John E Drake<br>Sent: =
2011</span><span style=3D'font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5'>=C4=EA</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US>6</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5'>=D4=C2</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US>29</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5'>=C8=D5</span><span lang=3DEN-US> =
6:12<br>To: Igor Bryskin; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO =
VITTORIO)<br>Cc: CCAMP<br>Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs =
multi stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Igor,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>I have a few clarifications.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>1)&nbsp; Multi-stage labels =
apply equally well to multi-hop hierarchical LSPs. (The is the point =
some people do not seem to understand.)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>2)&nbsp; It is incorrect to say =
that LSP hierarchy, as is, just works for the establishment of a =
hierarchical LSP that supports multi-stage switching.&nbsp; This =
involves a nested set of hierarchical LSPs, the containing hierarchical =
LSP and the set of sub-layer LSPs which provide context for intermediate =
stage labels, between the same two endpoints.&nbsp; This is a new =
construct and there are almost certainly details to be worked =
out.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>3)&nbsp; I don't think we should standardize both =
approaches.&nbsp; I would prefer that the working group pick one to =
standardize.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>John<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; -----Original =
Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; From: Igor Bryskin =
[mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Sent: Tuesday, June 28, =
2011 9:24 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); John E =
Drake<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Cc: CCAMP<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Subject: RE: RSVP OTN =
single stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Hi =
Pietro,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; You may not like John's =
tone, but emotions aside, what he keeps saying<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; repeatedly in this =
discussion does make perfect sense to me.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; 1) The point of CP =
signaling is to convey information pertinent to<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; network element =
provisioning in most efficient way. It does seem =
stupid<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; to signal numerous one hop hierarchical LSPs (when it =
is sufficient a<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; single end-to-end round of signaling to do the job), =
create and support<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; numerous extra CP states, take care of all restart =
implications, etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; just to be consistent with RFC_XYZ written 10 years =
ago;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; 2) Besides, you can think of multi-stage label as =
identification of a<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; new type of network resources controlled by GMPLS. =
Even the GMPLS god-<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; fathers would agree that they never meant to limit =
GMPLS to control the<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; resources described in early CCAMP =
RFCs.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; 3) Finally, no one ever said that you cannot =
orchestrate multi-stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; provisioning through the =
hierarchy of LSPs if you choose to do so.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Igor<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; -----Original =
Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org =
[mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Of GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO =
(PIETRO VITTORIO)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 10:43 =
AM<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
To: John E Drake<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Cc: CCAMP<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP =
OTN single stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Hello =
John,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; 1) You have forwarded to =
the CCamp mailing list a number of private<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; mails without asking the =
permission to the involved people. This is<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; impolite and =
unprofessional.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; 2) You are creating spam on =
the mailing list forwarding four threads<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; that are each hundreds of =
lines long and very complicated to follow for<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; people not involved in the =
discussion since the beginning. Moreover,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; this happened after a =
discussion from scratch was already started in<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; the mailing =
list.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; 3) You moved from a =
technical discussion to arrogant and deliberate<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; personal offenses not =
supported by any sound technical motivation as<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; reported in your mails and =
snipped below:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &quot;This shows a complete =
lack of understanding of hierarchical LSP,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; multi-stage labels, and =
GMPLS in general.&nbsp; It is so bad it is not =
even<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; wrong.&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &quot; It might be more =
precise to say I reviewed your slides and found<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; them, shall we say, =
lacking.&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; We hope that from now on =
the discussion can be continued from a purely<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; technical point of =
view.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Pietro, Sergio and =
Daniele<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Pietro Vittorio =
Grandi<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Terrestrial Optics Portfolio =
Evolution<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate =
(Italy)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Tel: +39 039 686 4930<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Mail: =
pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Put your hand on a =
hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an =
hour.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like =
a&nbsp; minute. That's<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
relativity.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; (A. Einstein)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; -----Original =
Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org =
[mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Of John E =
Drake<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Sent: marted</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>=A8=AC</span><span lang=3DEN-US> 28 =
giugno 2011 14.13<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; To: CCAMP<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Subject: [CCAMP] FW: RSVP =
OTN single stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Sent from my =
iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; -----Original =
Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; From: John E Drake<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Sent: Thursday, June 23, =
2011 3:56 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; To: 'Fatai Zhang'; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO =
VITTORIO)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan =
Sadler; Jonathan<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; =
fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; =
Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham; BELOTTI,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema =
Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Subject: RE: RSVP OTN =
single stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
Fatai,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Comments =
inline.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
John<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Sent from my =
iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; -----Original =
Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; From: Fatai Zhang =
[mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, June =
23, 2011 9:45 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); =
John E Drake<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan =
Sadler; Jonathan<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; =
fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Lyndon Ong; Steve =
Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
BELOTTI,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; =
Daniele Ceccarelli<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi =
stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Hi =
John,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; I guess that you did =
not review our slides carefully.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; JD:&nbsp; I will let this =
pass.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; You just see the only advantage for the corner =
case (i.e., establish<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; multi-layers LSP concurrently), but you did not =
see the issues that<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; we<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; described in the slides and the issues that =
Jonathan mentioned (eg.,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; OAM/protection =
issues).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; JD:&nbsp; I'm sorry that I =
didn't provide enough context.&nbsp; I don't think =
the<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
one-hop hierarchical LSP case, w/ or w/o multi-stage labels is =
either<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; interesting or common and it was not the case to which =
I was addressing<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; my comments.&nbsp; Rather, I was describing two ways =
of establishing multi-<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; hop multi-stage =
hierarchical LSPs.&nbsp; As far as I can tell the =
issues<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Jonathan raised in this context are red herrings =
rather than blue<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; whales.&nbsp; Furthermore, regardless of which of the =
two approaches I<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; described is used, the issues, if any, would be =
exactly the same.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; In addition, we have repeated many times that LSP =
hierarchy must be<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; used in many cases, even though we have =
multi-stage label approach.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; E.g., an ODU0 =
connection request from A to E through B, C and D, =
but<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
B,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt; C and&nbsp; D (or one of them ) can not support ODU0 switching, the =
HO<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
ODUj<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; (ODU1 or ODU2 or ODU3 or ODU4) LSP must be =
created between B and D<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; through LSP hierarchy. =
This example is very simple and there are lots<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; of transforms for this =
example to use LSP hierarchy.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; JD:&nbsp; Please see =
above.&nbsp; I completely agree with you and was =
simply<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; pointing out that multi-stage labels can be used to =
improve wrt latency<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; and control plane overhead, the establishment of ODUj =
LSPs within<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
Fatai<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; ----- Original Message =
-----<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; From: &quot;John E Drake&quot; =
&lt;jdrake@juniper.net&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; To: &quot;GRANDI, =
PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&lt;pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Cc: &quot;Daniele =
Ceccarelli&quot; &lt;daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com&gt;; =
&quot;Rajan<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Rao&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&lt;rrao@infinera.com&gt;; &quot;Fatai Zhang&quot; =
&lt;zhangfatai@huawei.com&gt;; &quot;Khuzema<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Pithewan&quot; =
&lt;kpithewan@infinera.com&gt;; &quot;BELOTTI, SERGIO =
(SERGIO)&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &lt;sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com&gt;; =
&quot;Ashok Kunjidhapatham&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&lt;akunjidhapatham@infinera.com&gt;; &quot;Diego =
Caviglia&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &lt;diego.caviglia@ericsson.com&gt;; &quot;Steve =
Balls&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &lt;Steve.Balls@metaswitch.com&gt;; &quot;Ciena - =
Lyndon Ong&quot; &lt;LyOng@Ciena.com&gt;;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&lt;fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&gt;; &quot;NSN - Cyril =
Margaria&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&lt;cyril.margaria@nsn.com&gt;;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &quot;Li Dan&quot; =
&lt;huawei.danli@huawei.com&gt;; &quot;Jonathan =
Hardwick&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &lt;Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com&gt;; =
&quot;Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&lt;jonathan.sadler@tellabs.com&gt;; &quot;Vallinayakam =
Somasundaram&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &lt;valli@juniper.net&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, June =
23, 2011 7:21 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi =
stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Pietro,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; If we are talking about the establishment of LSPs =
using single-stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; muxing, I think the only thing necessary is a new =
label format, which<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; I<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; believe is a bit map of tributary slots; i.e., =
LSP establishment<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; using<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; single-stage muxing is =
done.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; We have never had a =
situation such as multi-stage muxing before so =
we<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt; are breaking new ground and we have two choices, either use =
LSP<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt; hierarchy to establish multiple single-stage sub-layer =
LSPs<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; explicitly<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; and sequentially, or =
include the sub-layer information within the<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
Path<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; message for the ODUj such that the sub-layers are =
established<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; implicitly and concurrently with the =
establishment of the ODUj.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Either will work, but it seems to me that the =
latter is more<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; efficient<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; wrt latency and =
control plane overhead.&nbsp; The one thing I do not =
want<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; to<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; do is to say that both are supported.&nbsp; If we =
can agree that we will<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; only use one method to =
establish multi-stage LSPs, then when a node<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; advertises multi-stage =
support in routing, we know how signaling is<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; to<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; be =
accomplished.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
John<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Sent from my =
iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; -----Original =
Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO =
VITTORIO)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
[mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]<o:p></o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Monday, =
June 20, 2011 1:31 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: John E Drake<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: Daniele =
Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema =
Pithewan;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok =
Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; =
fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
Margaria;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - =
Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Somasundaram; =
GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: RE: RSVP =
OTN single stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; John,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; It seems as though you consider on the same =
level something (H-LSP<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; concept) already =
used in CP managing multi-layer with something<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
that<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; does not exist at =
all.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Operators are used to managed their CP =
network together with NMS.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Most of the NMS =
work per-layer. The utilization of a multi-stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
label<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; would force NMS to work in another manner =
with heavy implementation<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
consequences.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; We should also =
keep in mind that multi-stage label approach can<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
only<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; be<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; used in some =
cases (not for all the one-hop multi-stage muxing) =
and<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt; it<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; will bring some management issues. Please =
see the slides that Fatai<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; sent a few days =
ago.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; For both these =
reasons the &quot;optional&quot; condition of =
multi-stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; label<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; concept is =
absolutely mandatory for us.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Pietro, Sergio, Fatai &amp; =
Daniele<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Pietro =
Vittorio Grandi<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Terrestrial Optics Portfolio =
Evolution<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate =
(Italy)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Tel: +39 039 686 =
4930<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Mail: =
pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Put your =
hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like =
an<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
hour.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it =
seems like a&nbsp; minute.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
That's<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; relativity.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; (A. =
Einstein)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; -----Original =
Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; From: John E Drake =
[mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: sabato 18 =
giugno 2011 2.40<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO =
VITTORIO)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai =
Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; BELOTTI, SERGIO =
(SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; =
fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
Margaria;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - =
Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
Somasundaram<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi =
stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
Pietro,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; We can certainly =
say that a node that advertises multistage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
switching<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; support in routing MUST support multistage =
signaling.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; As I said before, =
using mutiple RSVP exchanges between the same =
LSP<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt; &gt; endpoints to establish intermediate switching stages seems =
ill-<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; considered and forcing everyone to support =
two ways of signaling<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; multistage LSPs seems like a really Bad =
Idea.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
John<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent from my =
iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; On Jun 17, 2011, =
at 2:55 AM, &quot;GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO =
(PIETRO<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; VITTORIO)&quot; =
&lt;pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
lucent.com&lt;mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com&gt;&gt;<o:=
p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Hello =
John,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; I understand that =
you think that the new switching type in routing<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; should also =
convey implicitly the information that a<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; multi-stage label =
is supported.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; I do not agree =
with this statement.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Implementations using H-LSPs plus single =
stage labels are possible<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
(and<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; already standard) and the fact the a node =
supports<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; the new switching type is not enough to =
clearly tell what is<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; supported.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Pietro<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; From: John E =
Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: =
venerd</span><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New"'>=A8=AC</span><span lang=3DEN-US> 17 giugno 2011 =
2.09<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO =
VITTORIO); Daniele Ceccarelli;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Rajan Rao; Fatai =
Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO =
(SERGIO);<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia; 'Steve =
Balls'; 'Ciena -<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Lyndon<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Ong'; =
fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&lt;mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&gt;; 'NSN - =
Cyril<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; =
'Tellabs - Jonathan<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Sadler';<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Vallinayakam =
Somasundaram<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi =
stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
Pietro,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Actually we are =
already covered.&nbsp;&nbsp; Our advertisements use =
a<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
different<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; switching type, which is also carried in =
signaling.&nbsp; This means<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
that<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; we<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; get to define the =
signaling used for this switching type, and I am<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; proposing that we =
use multistage.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
John<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent from my =
iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; From: GRANDI, =
PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
[mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]<o:p></o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, =
June 16, 2011 6:52 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: Daniele Ceccarelli; John E Drake; Rajan =
Rao; Fatai Zhang;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Khuzema<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Pithewan; =
BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; =
Diego<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon =
Ong';<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&lt;mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&gt;; 'NSN - =
Cyril<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; =
'Tellabs - Jonathan<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Sadler';<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Vallinayakam =
Somasundaram<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi =
stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Hi =
all,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; I&nbsp; agree =
with Daniele' statement.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; in my mind this means that single stage =
label support is implicit<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; and<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
that<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; multi-stage labels should not be used unless =
a machine explicitly<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; declares the =
support.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
Pietro<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Pietro =
Vittorio Grandi<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Terrestrial Optics Portfolio =
Evolution<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate =
(Italy)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Tel: +39 039 686 =
4930<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Mail: =
&lt;mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com&gt;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
lucent.com&lt;mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com&gt;<o:p></=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Put your =
hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like =
an<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
hour.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it =
seems like a&nbsp; minute.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
That's<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; relativity.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; (A. =
Einstein)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; From: Daniele =
Ceccarelli =
[mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: =
gioved</span><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New"'>=A8=AC</span><span lang=3DEN-US> 16 giugno 2011 =
15.48<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; =
Khuzema Pithewan;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; BELOTTI,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; SERGIO (SERGIO); =
Ashok Kunjidhapatham; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
(PIETRO<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; VITTORIO); Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; =
'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&lt;mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&gt;; 'NSN - =
Cyril<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; =
'Tellabs - Jonathan<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Sadler';<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Vallinayakam =
Somasundaram<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi =
stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Starting a new =
thread as we're now moving to signaling...<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Assuming we still have not decided whether =
we're going to support<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; single stage =
only, multi stage only or both of them i believe =
that<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; as<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; per OSPF we need to consider backward =
compatibility.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; An implementation =
RFC4328 based (that we've explicitly been told<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; not<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
to<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt; &gt; deprecate) is single stage based, so in case of multi stage =
only or<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; multi-stage + single stage we should be able =
to cover backward<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; compatibility issues =
somehow.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
BR<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt; &gt; Daniele<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; From: John E =
Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: =
gioved</span><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New"'>=A8=AC</span><span lang=3DEN-US> 16 giugno 2011 =
8.53<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai =
Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; 'BELOTTI, SERGIO =
(SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: 'GRANDI, =
PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego =
Caviglia;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; 'Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Balls'; 'Ciena - =
Lyndon Ong';<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&lt;mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&gt;; 'NSN - =
Cyril<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; =
'Tellabs - Jonathan<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Sadler';<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Vallinayakam =
Somasundaram<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF =
draft (support for<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; multi-<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; stage Vs Single =
Stage labels)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Rajan,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; I didn't want to allow interoperability =
options.&nbsp; I much preferred<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; to<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; say that we do =
signaling in one way only, using multistage =
labels.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; These are also needed for signaling =
within&nbsp; hierarchical LSPs.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; John<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; From: Rajan Rao =
[mailto:rrao@infinera.com]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Wednesday, =
June 15, 2011 10:46 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: Daniele =
Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; John E Drake; Khuzema<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
Pithewan;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok =
Kunjidhapatham<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO =
VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
'Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon =
Ong';<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&lt;mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&gt;; 'NSN - =
Cyril<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; =
'Tellabs - Jonathan<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Sadler';<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Vallinayakam =
Somasundaram<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF =
draft (support for<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; multi-<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; stage Vs Single =
Stage labels)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; While we are making updates, let us discuss =
support required in<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; link<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; advertisement for =
single/multi-stage label options:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Given that there is interest in both =
multi-stage label and single-<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; with H-LSPs, we should consider inclusion of =
a FLAG to indicate<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; what<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; the link is =
capable of.&nbsp; This will address some of the issues =
we<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
have<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; discussed in the past relating to path =
computation involving NEs<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
with<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; different capabilities =
(inter-op).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Rajan<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; CCAMP mailing =
list<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; CCAMP@ietf.org<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; CCAMP mailing =
list<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; CCAMP@ietf.org<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></=
span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>CCAMP mailing =
list<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>CCAMP@ietf.org<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp<o:p></o:p></span=
></p></div></div></body></html>=

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From jdrake@juniper.net  Wed Jun 29 20:38:15 2011
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Fatai Zhang <zhangfatai@huawei.com>, 'Igor Bryskin' <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>, "'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO	VITTORIO)'" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 20:36:38 -0700
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vli=
nk=3Dpurple style=3D'text-justify-trim:punctuation'><div class=3DWordSectio=
n1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Fata=
i,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0p=
t;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Comments inline.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;=
color:#1F497D'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>John<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F49=
7D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft styl=
e=3D'text-align:left'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Sent f=
rom my iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div style=
=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><di=
v><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><b><=
span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</sp=
an></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
Fatai Zhang [mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June=
 29, 2011 7:25 PM<br><b>To:</b> John E Drake; 'Igor Bryskin'; 'GRANDI, PIET=
RO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'<br><b>Cc:</b> 'CCAMP'<br><b>Subject:</b> RE:=
 [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Hi John,<o:=
p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.=
0pt'>So, you admit that ODU0-&gt;ODU2-&gt;ODU3 cannot be created directly b=
y multi-stage label approach if there is no hierarchical ODU3 before ODU0 r=
equest? because you assume that a hierarchical ODU3 (FA) is already there.<=
o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;c=
olor:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>JD:&nbsp; Absolutely.&nbsp; I think I a=
ctually stipulated this in an email I sent you and others some months back.=
&nbsp; The basic idea is that you create the containing hierarchical &nbsp;=
LSP first and then use it to establish &nbsp;OUDj client &nbsp;LSPs and the=
ir required sub-layer LSPs as needed, with the sub-layer LSPs being establi=
shed using one of the two proposals being discussed.<o:p></o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>A few poin=
ts for clarification, even though I follow your thought.<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>How to crea=
te the ODU3 FA before ODU0 request? I think it is still H-LSP concept there=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt=
;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>JD:&nbsp; Absolutely.&nbsp; If the ODU=
0 Path message arrives at B, B holds it, establishes the ODU3 containing hi=
erarchical LSP to D, &nbsp;and then *<b>either</b>* <o:p></o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in=
;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-size:11.=
0pt;color:#1F497D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1)<span style=3D'font:7.=
0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span>=
<![endif]><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Creates the ODU2 s=
ub-layer by signaling D and then sends the ODU0 Path message to D *<b>OR</b=
>*<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.=
25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-size=
:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2)<span style=3D'fon=
t:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></s=
pan><![endif]><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Sends the ODU0=
 Path message to D along with the multi-stage label for the ODU2 LSP<o:p></=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'=
>If ODU3 FA between B and D is already there, the FA should be regarded as =
one-hop, because there is no difference between one-hop FA and one-hop link=
. So, this scenario should be treated as one-hop scenario rather than multi=
-hop (Please pay attention to this sentence that we are trying to make you =
understood many times).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>JD:&nbsp; I tol=
d Sergio and you &nbsp;last week that I didn=A1=AFt think multi-stage label=
s for links (one hop) were interesting or useful, and that I only considere=
d them useful in the context of multi-hop multistage hierarchical LSPs.&nbs=
p; The signaling within the containing hierarchical LSP is between that LSP=
 endpoints so it is one hop.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>If ODU3 between B and D i=
s already there based on this example, why it needs to use two stage muxing=
 (ODU0-&gt;ODU2-&gt;ODU3), why not just use the simple one stage muxing (ie=
.,ODU0-&gt;ODU3)? &nbsp;Please review our slides again to get more informat=
ion about cons of multi-stage muxing(slide 5).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o=
:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1=
F497D'>JD:&nbsp; You could, if that branch is also supported.&nbsp; In your=
 figure I had mentally edited out the ODU0 -&gt; ODU3 branch so that we had=
 an interesting scenario to discuss.</span><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'=
><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt=
'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size=
:12.0pt'>Thanks<br>&nbsp;<br>Fatai<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><=
div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><b><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Joh=
n E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net] <br><b>Sent:</b> 2011</span><span lan=
g=3DZH-CN style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun'>=C4=EA</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>6</span><span =
lang=3DZH-CN style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun'>=D4=C2</span><sp=
an style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>29</span><s=
pan lang=3DZH-CN style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun'>=C8=D5</span=
><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> 23:39<=
br><b>To:</b> Fatai Zhang; 'Igor Bryskin'; 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO=
 VITTORIO)'<br><b>Cc:</b> 'CCAMP'<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN s=
ingle stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Fatai,<o:p></o:=
p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F=
497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-=
size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Let=A1=AFs assume we have a containing hierarchi=
cal ODU3 between node B and node D over which we want to establish and ODU0=
.&nbsp; Using the sub-layer hierarchical LSP approach, we would signal a su=
b-layer ODU2 hierarchical LSP between B and D and then signal the ODU0.&nbs=
p; With multi-stage labels we would signal the ODU0 and include an ODU2 mul=
ti-stage label.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'fo=
nt-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>As I have repeatedly sai=
d, either can be made to work with some non-zero amount of effort, but my p=
reference is for multi-stage labels, strictly from an efficiency perspectiv=
e.&nbsp; There isn=A1=AFt enough difference between the two approaches to w=
arrant standardizing both.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Thanks,<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:=
#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'fo=
nt-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>John<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></span=
></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F49=
7D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid=
 blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;borde=
r-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal a=
lign=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:1=
0.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Fatai Zhang [mailto:zhangfatai@hu=
awei.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 29, 2011 1:59 AM<br><b>To:</b> J=
ohn E Drake; 'Igor Bryskin'; 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'<br=
><b>Cc:</b> 'CCAMP'<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs=
 multi stage<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3D=
left style=3D'text-align:left'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText=
>Hi John,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoPlainText>Agree with Igor that let emotions aside if there was some=
 improper wording. Let<span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>=A1=AF</spa=
n>s discuss tech.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Could you clarify your point 1) a little more? He=
re is a simple example shown below. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>=
<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Could you explain how to creat=
e ODU0 connection from Node A to Node E by multi-stage labels approach? Wha=
t information (e.g., traffic parameters, labels) should be carried in the P=
ath or Resv message? What action should be taken for Node C when receiving =
the Path or Resv message?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainT=
ext><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><img width=3D926 height=3D=
226 id=3D"Picture_x0020_1" src=3D"cid:image001.png@01CC369B.6AEED6D0"><o:p>=
</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainT=
ext><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Thanks<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainT=
ext><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3DMsoPlainText>Fatai<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPla=
inText>-----Original Message-----<br>From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:c=
camp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of John E Drake<br>Sent: 2011<span lang=3D=
ZH-CN style=3D'font-family:SimSun'>=C4=EA</span>6<span lang=3DZH-CN style=
=3D'font-family:SimSun'>=D4=C2</span>29<span lang=3DZH-CN style=3D'font-fam=
ily:SimSun'>=C8=D5</span> 6:12<br>To: Igor Bryskin; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO=
 (PIETRO VITTORIO)<br>Cc: CCAMP<br>Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single sta=
ge vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Igor,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>I have a few clarifications.<o:p></=
o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTex=
t>1)&nbsp; Multi-stage labels apply equally well to multi-hop hierarchical =
LSPs. (The is the point some people do not seem to understand.)<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>2)&=
nbsp; It is incorrect to say that LSP hierarchy, as is, just works for the =
establishment of a hierarchical LSP that supports multi-stage switching.&nb=
sp; This involves a nested set of hierarchical LSPs, the containing hierarc=
hical LSP and the set of sub-layer LSPs which provide context for intermedi=
ate stage labels, between the same two endpoints.&nbsp; This is a new const=
ruct and there are almost certainly details to be worked out.<o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>3)&nb=
sp; I don't think we should standardize both approaches.&nbsp; I would pref=
er that the working group pick one to standardize.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Thanks,<o:p></=
o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTex=
t>John<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oPlainText>&gt; From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com]<o:p></=
o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 9:24 AM<o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIET=
RO VITTORIO); John E Drake<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Cc: C=
CAMP<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Subject: RE: RSVP OTN singl=
e stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Hi Pietro,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; You m=
ay not like John's tone, but emotions aside, what he keeps saying<o:p></o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; repeatedly in this discussion does make p=
erfect sense to me.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; 1) The point=
 of CP signaling is to convey information pertinent to<o:p></o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; network element provisioning in most efficient way. =
It does seem stupid<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; to signal nu=
merous one hop hierarchical LSPs (when it is sufficient a<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; single end-to-end round of signaling to do the jo=
b), create and support<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; numerous =
extra CP states, take care of all restart implications, etc.<o:p></o:p></p>=
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; just to be consistent with RFC_XYZ written 10 =
years ago;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; 2) Besides, you can t=
hink of multi-stage label as identification of a<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DM=
soPlainText>&gt; new type of network resources controlled by GMPLS. Even th=
e GMPLS god-<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; fathers would agree=
 that they never meant to limit GMPLS to control the<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; resources described in early CCAMP RFCs.<o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; 3) Finally, no one ever said that you cannot =
orchestrate multi-stage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; provisio=
ning through the hierarchy of LSPs if you choose to do so.<o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=
 Cheers,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Igor<o:p></o:p></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; -=
----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; From: =
ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf<o:p></o:p>=
</p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Of GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORI=
O)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 =
10:43 AM<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; To: John E Drake<o:p></=
o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Cc: CCAMP<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMso=
PlainText>&gt; Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage<o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMso=
PlainText>&gt; Hello John,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; 1) You have forwarded to the CC=
amp mailing list a number of private<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>=
&gt; mails without asking the permission to the involved people. This is<o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; impolite and unprofessional.<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPla=
inText>&gt; 2) You are creating spam on the mailing list forwarding four th=
reads<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; that are each hundreds of =
lines long and very complicated to follow for<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoP=
lainText>&gt; people not involved in the discussion since the beginning. Mo=
reover,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; this happened after a di=
scussion from scratch was already started in<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPl=
ainText>&gt; the mailing list.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; 3) You moved from a technic=
al discussion to arrogant and deliberate<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainT=
ext>&gt; personal offenses not supported by any sound technical motivation =
as<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; reported in your mails and sn=
ipped below:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &quot;This shows a complete lack of understan=
ding of hierarchical LSP,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; multi-=
stage labels, and GMPLS in general.&nbsp; It is so bad it is not even<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; wrong.&quot;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &quot=
; It might be more precise to say I reviewed your slides and found<o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; them, shall we say, lacking.&quot;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPla=
inText>&gt; We hope that from now on the discussion can be continued from a=
 purely<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; technical point of view.=
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D=
MsoPlainText>&gt; Pietro, Sergio and Daniele<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPl=
ainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoP=
lainText>&gt; Pietro Vittorio Grandi<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>=
&gt; Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPla=
inText>&gt; Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPl=
ainText>&gt; Tel: +39 039 686 4930<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&g=
t; Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Put your hand on a hot stove=
 for a minute, and it seems like an hour.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlain=
Text>&gt; Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a&nbsp; min=
ute. That's<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; relativity.<o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; (A. Einstein)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DM=
soPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; -----Orig=
inal Message-----<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; From: ccamp-bo=
unces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf<o:p></o:p></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Of John E Drake<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainT=
ext>&gt; Sent: marted<span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>=A8=AC</span=
> 28 giugno 2011 14.13<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; To: CCAMP=
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Subject: [CCAMP] FW: RSVP OTN s=
ingle stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D=
MsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Sent fro=
m my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>=
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&g=
t; -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Fr=
om: John E Drake<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Sent: Thursday,=
 June 23, 2011 3:56 PM<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; To: 'Fata=
i Zhang'; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadl=
er; Jonathan<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Hardwick; Li Dan; N=
SN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D=
MsoPlainText>&gt; Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapa=
tham; BELOTTI,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; SERGIO (SERGIO); =
Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oPlainText>&gt; Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTe=
xt>&gt; Fatai,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Comments inline.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DM=
soPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Thanks,<o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oPlainText>&gt; John<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; -----Original Message=
-----<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; From: Fatai Zhang [ma=
ilto:zhangfatai@huawei.com]<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;=
 Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 9:45 AM<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTex=
t>&gt; &gt; To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); John E Drake<o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram;=
 Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>=
&gt; &gt; Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Cien=
a -<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls=
; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTe=
xt>&gt; BELOTTI,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; SERGIO (SE=
RGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli<o:p></o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi sta=
ge<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Hi John,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&g=
t; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; I guess that you di=
d not review our slides carefully.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&g=
t;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; JD:&nbsp; I will let th=
is pass.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &=
gt; You just see the only advantage for the corner case (i.e., establish<o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; multi-layers LSP concurrently=
), but you did not see the issues that<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTex=
t>&gt; we<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; described in the =
slides and the issues that Jonathan mentioned (eg.,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; OAM/protection issues).<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D=
MsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; JD:&nbsp=
; I'm sorry that I didn't provide enough context.&nbsp; I don't think the<o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; one-hop hierarchical LSP case, w/=
 or w/o multi-stage labels is either<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>=
&gt; interesting or common and it was not the case to which I was addressin=
g<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; my comments.&nbsp; Rather, I w=
as describing two ways of establishing multi-<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoP=
lainText>&gt; hop multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.&nbsp; As far as I can tell=
 the issues<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Jonathan raised in t=
his context are red herrings rather than blue<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoP=
lainText>&gt; whales.&nbsp; Furthermore, regardless of which of the two app=
roaches I<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; described is used, the=
 issues, if any, would be exactly the same.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPla=
inText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; In addition, we have repeated many t=
imes that LSP hierarchy must be<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
&gt; used in many cases, even though we have multi-stage label approach.<o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; E.g., an ODU0 connection requ=
est from A to E through B, C and D, but<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTe=
xt>&gt; B,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; C and&nbsp; D (o=
r one of them ) can not support ODU0 switching, the HO<o:p></o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; ODUj<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;=
 (ODU1 or ODU2 or ODU3 or ODU4) LSP must be created between B and D<o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; through LSP hierarchy. This exampl=
e is very simple and there are lots<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&=
gt; &gt; of transforms for this example to use LSP hierarchy.<o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&=
gt; JD:&nbsp; Please see above.&nbsp; I completely agree with you and was s=
imply<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; pointing out that multi-st=
age labels can be used to improve wrt latency<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoP=
lainText>&gt; and control plane overhead, the establishment of ODUj LSPs wi=
thin<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; multi-stage hierarchical LS=
Ps.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMso=
PlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Fatai<o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMso=
PlainText>&gt; &gt; Thanks<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; =
----- Original Message -----<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt=
; From: &quot;John E Drake&quot; &lt;jdrake@juniper.net&gt;<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; To: &quot;GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO =
VITTORIO)&quot;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &lt;pietro_=
vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com&gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTex=
t>&gt; &gt; Cc: &quot;Daniele Ceccarelli&quot; &lt;daniele.ceccarelli@erics=
son.com&gt;; &quot;Rajan<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Rao&quo=
t;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &lt;rrao@infinera.com&gt=
;; &quot;Fatai Zhang&quot; &lt;zhangfatai@huawei.com&gt;; &quot;Khuzema<o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Pithewan&quot; &lt;kpithewan@i=
nfinera.com&gt;; &quot;BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)&quot;<o:p></o:p></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &lt;sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com&gt;; &quot=
;Ashok Kunjidhapatham&quot;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;=
 &lt;akunjidhapatham@infinera.com&gt;; &quot;Diego Caviglia&quot;<o:p></o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &lt;diego.caviglia@ericsson.com&gt;;=
 &quot;Steve Balls&quot;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &l=
t;Steve.Balls@metaswitch.com&gt;; &quot;Ciena - Lyndon Ong&quot; &lt;LyOng@=
Ciena.com&gt;;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &lt;fu.xihua=
@zte.com.cn&gt;; &quot;NSN - Cyril Margaria&quot;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D=
MsoPlainText>&gt; &lt;cyril.margaria@nsn.com&gt;;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D=
MsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &quot;Li Dan&quot; &lt;huawei.danli@huawei.com&gt;; =
&quot;Jonathan Hardwick&quot;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &g=
t; &lt;Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com&gt;; &quot;Tellabs - Jonathan Sadle=
r&quot;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &lt;jonathan.sadler=
@tellabs.com&gt;; &quot;Vallinayakam Somasundaram&quot;<o:p></o:p></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &lt;valli@juniper.net&gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 7:21 PM<o:p></o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage v=
s multi stage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&g=
t; &gt; Pietro,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; If we are talking about the establishm=
ent of LSPs using single-stage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &=
gt; muxing, I think the only thing necessary is a new label format, which<o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; I<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPla=
inText>&gt; &gt; believe is a bit map of tributary slots; i.e., LSP establi=
shment<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; using<o:p></o:p></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; single-stage muxing is done.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &=
gt; We have never had a situation such as multi-stage muxing before so we<o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; are breaking new ground and =
we have two choices, either use LSP<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&=
gt; &gt; hierarchy to establish multiple single-stage sub-layer LSPs<o:p></=
o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; explicitly<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oPlainText>&gt; &gt; and sequentially, or include the sub-layer information=
 within the<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Path<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; message for the ODUj such that the sub-lay=
ers are established<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; implici=
tly and concurrently with the establishment of the ODUj.<o:p></o:p></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &g=
t; Either will work, but it seems to me that the latter is more<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; efficient<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlain=
Text>&gt; &gt; wrt latency and control plane overhead.&nbsp; The one thing =
I do not want<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; to<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; do is to say that both are supported.&nbsp=
; If we can agree that we will<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &=
gt; only use one method to establish multi-stage LSPs, then when a node<o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; advertises multi-stage support=
 in routing, we know how signaling is<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText=
>&gt; to<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; be accomplished.<o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMso=
PlainText>&gt; &gt; Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;=
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; John<o:p></o:p></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; =
Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainT=
ext>&gt; &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoP=
lainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)<o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; [mailto:pietro_vittorio.g=
randi@alcatel-lucent.com]<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &=
gt; Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 1:31 AM<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTe=
xt>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: John E Drake<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&g=
t; &gt; &gt; Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithew=
an;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; BELOTTI, SERGIO (S=
ERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoP=
lainText>&gt; Steve<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Ba=
lls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Margaria;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&=
gt; &gt; &gt; Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallina=
yakam<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Somasundaram; GR=
ANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTe=
xt>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage<o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoP=
lainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; John,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &g=
t; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; It seems as th=
ough you consider on the same level something (H-LSP<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; concept) already used in CP managing multi-l=
ayer with something<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; that<o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; does not exist at all.<o:p></=
o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Operators are used to manage=
d their CP network together with NMS.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText=
>&gt; &gt; &gt; Most of the NMS work per-layer. The utilization of a multi-=
stage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; label<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; would force NMS to work in another ma=
nner with heavy implementation<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &=
gt; &gt; consequences.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;=
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; We should also keep i=
n mind that multi-stage label approach can<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlai=
nText>&gt; only<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; be<o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; used in some cases (not for al=
l the one-hop multi-stage muxing) and<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText=
>&gt; &gt; it<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; will bri=
ng some management issues. Please see the slides that Fatai<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; sent a few days ago.<o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>=
&gt; &gt; &gt; For both these reasons the &quot;optional&quot; condition of=
 multi-stage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; label<o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; concept is absolutely mandatory for=
 us.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Pietro, Sergio, Fatai &amp; Daniele<o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D=
MsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Pietro Vi=
ttorio Grandi<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Terrestr=
ial Optics Portfolio Evolution<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &=
gt; &gt; Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlain=
Text>&gt; &gt; &gt; Tel: +39 039 686 4930<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlain=
Text>&gt; &gt; &gt; Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com<o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &=
gt; &gt; Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an<o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; hour.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMso=
PlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems l=
ike a&nbsp; minute.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; That's<=
o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; relativity.<o:p></o:p>=
</p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; (A. Einstein)<o:p></o:p></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&g=
t; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; -----Orig=
inal Message-----<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; From=
: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlai=
nText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: sabato 18 giugno 2011 2.40<o:p></o:p></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORI=
O)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: Daniele Ceccare=
lli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMso=
PlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Di=
ego Caviglia;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Steve<o:p></o:p></=
p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihu=
a@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Margar=
ia;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Li Dan; Jonathan H=
ardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DM=
soPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Somasundaram<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTe=
xt>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage<o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoP=
lainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Pietro,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; We can certa=
inly say that a node that advertises multistage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oPlainText>&gt; switching<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &=
gt; support in routing MUST support multistage signaling.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&=
gt; &gt; &gt; As I said before, using mutiple RSVP exchanges between the sa=
me LSP<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; endpoints to es=
tablish intermediate switching stages seems ill-<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DM=
soPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; considered and forcing everyone to support two w=
ays of signaling<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; multi=
stage LSPs seems like a really Bad Idea.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainT=
ext>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Joh=
n<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &=
gt; &gt; On Jun 17, 2011, at 2:55 AM, &quot;GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO=
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; VITTORIO)&quot; &lt;p=
ietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &=
gt; &gt; lucent.com&lt;mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com&gt;=
&gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=
 &gt; &gt; Hello John,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;=
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; I understand that you=
 think that the new switching type in routing<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoP=
lainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; should also convey implicitly the information that =
a<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; multi-stage label is=
 supported.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p>=
</p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; I do not agree with this stateme=
nt.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Implementations us=
ing H-LSPs plus single stage labels are possible<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DM=
soPlainText>&gt; &gt; (and<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; =
&gt; already standard) and the fact the a node supports<o:p></o:p></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; the new switching type is not enough to c=
learly tell what is<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; support=
ed.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Pietro<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlain=
Text>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; __=
______________________________<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &=
gt; &gt; From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]<o:p></o:p></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: venerd<span style=3D'font-family:"C=
ourier New"'>=A8=AC</span> 17 giugno 2011 2.09<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMso=
PlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); Dan=
iele Ceccarelli;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Rajan=
 Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO);<o:p></o:p></=
p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Cavigl=
ia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena -<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Lynd=
on<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Ong'; fu.xihua@zte.=
com.cn&lt;mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&gt;; 'NSN - Cyril<o:p></o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; =
'Tellabs - Jonathan<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Sadler'=
;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Vallinayakam Somasun=
daram<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: RE: RSV=
P OTN single stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt=
; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Pietro,<o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Actually we are already covered.&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 Our advertisements use a<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; differ=
ent<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; switching type, wh=
ich is also carried in signaling.&nbsp; This means<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; that<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; w=
e<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; get to define the si=
gnaling used for this switching type, and I am<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMso=
PlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; proposing that we use multistage.<o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>=
&gt; &gt; &gt; Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;=
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; John<o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>=
&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&g=
t; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; From: GRA=
NDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTex=
t>&gt; &gt; &gt; [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]<o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011=
 6:52 AM<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: Daniele C=
eccarelli; John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DM=
soPlainText>&gt; Khuzema<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &g=
t; Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego<o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Cien=
a - Lyndon Ong';<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; fu.xi=
hua@zte.com.cn&lt;mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&gt;; 'NSN - Cyril<o:p></o:p></=
p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Har=
dwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;=
 Sadler';<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Vallinayakam=
 Somasundaram<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject:=
 RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlain=
Text>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Hi=
 all,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; I&nbsp; agree with Daniele' statement.=
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; in my mind this means that single stage lab=
el support is implicit<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; and<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; that<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; multi-stage labels should not be used unless=
 a machine explicitly<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
declares the support.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<=
o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Pietro<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText=
>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; =3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Pietro Vittorio Grandi<o:p></o:p></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution<o:p>=
</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (=
Italy)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Tel: +39 039 68=
6 4930<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Mail: &lt;mailt=
o:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com&gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; lucent.com&lt;mailto:pietro_vittorio.gr=
andi@alcatel-lucent.com&gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt;=
 &gt; =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Put your hand on a hot stove for =
a minute, and it seems like an<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; h=
our.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sit with a pretty=
 girl for an hour, and it seems like a&nbsp; minute.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; That's<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=
 &gt; &gt; relativity.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;=
 (A. Einstein)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; _____________________________=
___<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; From: Daniele Cecc=
arelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: gioved<span style=3D'font-family:"Courier N=
ew"'>=A8=AC</span> 16 giugno 2011 15.48<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTe=
xt>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewa=
n;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; BELOTTI,<o:p></o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; GRA=
NDI, PIETRO VITTORIO<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; (PIETR=
O<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; VITTORIO); Diego Cav=
iglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPla=
inText>&gt; &gt; &gt; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&lt;mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&gt;=
; 'NSN - Cyril<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Margari=
a'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan<o:p></o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Sadler';<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>=
&gt; &gt; &gt; Vallinayakam Somasundaram<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainT=
ext>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p>=
</p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlai=
nText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Starting a new thread as we're now moving to signaling=
...<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Assuming we still have not decided wheth=
er we're going to support<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &=
gt; single stage only, multi stage only or both of them i believe that<o:p>=
</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; as<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlain=
Text>&gt; &gt; &gt; per OSPF we need to consider backward compatibility.<o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; An implementation RFC4328 based (that we've =
explicitly been told<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; not<o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; to<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPla=
inText>&gt; &gt; &gt; deprecate) is single stage based, so in case of multi=
 stage only or<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; multi-s=
tage + single stage we should be able to cover backward<o:p></o:p></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; compatibility issues somehow.<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlain=
Text>&gt; &gt; &gt; BR<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;=
 Daniele<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; ________________________________<o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; From: John E Drake [mail=
to:jdrake@juniper.net]<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;=
 Sent: gioved<span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>=A8=AC</span> 16 giu=
gno 2011 8.53<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: Raja=
n Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunji=
dhapatham<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: 'GRANDI,=
 PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; 'Steve<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=
 &gt; &gt; Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainT=
ext>&gt; &gt; &gt; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&lt;mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&gt;; '=
NSN - Cyril<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Margaria';=
 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Sadler';<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&g=
t; &gt; &gt; Vallinayakam Somasundaram<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTex=
t>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support=
 for<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; multi-<o:p></o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; stage Vs Single Stage labels)<o:p></o:p></=
p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Rajan,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &=
gt; I didn't want to allow interoperability options.&nbsp; I much preferred=
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; to<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMso=
PlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; say that we do signaling in one way only, using mu=
ltistage labels.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; These=
 are also needed for signaling within&nbsp; hierarchical LSPs.<o:p></o:p></=
p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainT=
ext>&gt; &gt; &gt; Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; John<o:p></o:p></=
p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainT=
ext>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTex=
t>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; From:=
 Rajan Rao [mailto:rrao@infinera.com]<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText=
>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 10:46 PM<o:p></o:p></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; John=
 E Drake; Khuzema<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Pithewan;<o:p>=
</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'=
; Ashok Kunjidhapatham<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;=
 Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;<o:p></o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; 'Steve<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoP=
lainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';<o:p></o:p></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn&lt;mailto:fu.xihua@zte.=
com.cn&gt;; 'NSN - Cyril<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &g=
t; Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan<o:p></o:p>=
</p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; Sadler';<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMso=
PlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Vallinayakam Somasundaram<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF =
draft (support for<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; multi-<o:p></=
o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; stage Vs Single Stage labels=
)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Hi,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>=
&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; While w=
e are making updates, let us discuss support required in<o:p></o:p></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; link<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &g=
t; &gt; advertisement for single/multi-stage label options:<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText=
>&gt; &gt; &gt; Given that there is interest in both multi-stage label and =
single-<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; stage<o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; with H-LSPs, we should consider inc=
lusion of a FLAG to indicate<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; wha=
t<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; the link is capable =
of.&nbsp; This will address some of the issues we<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D=
MsoPlainText>&gt; have<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;=
 discussed in the past relating to path computation involving NEs<o:p></o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; with<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainTex=
t>&gt; &gt; &gt; different capabilities (inter-op).<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &=
gt; &gt; Thanks<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; &gt; Rajan<=
o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; ________________________________=
_______________<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; CCAMP mailing li=
st<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; CCAMP@ietf.org<o:p></o:p></p>=
<p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp<o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; __________________________________=
_____________<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; CCAMP mailing list=
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; CCAMP@ietf.org<o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp<o:p>=
</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>_________________________________________=
______<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>CCAMP mailing list<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>CCAMP@ietf.org<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlain=
Text>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp<o:p></o:p></p></div></div>=
</div></body></html>=

--_000_5E893DB832F57341992548CDBB333163A0A8A68BE9EMBX01HQjnprn_--

--_004_5E893DB832F57341992548CDBB333163A0A8A68BE9EMBX01HQjnprn_
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From jdrake@juniper.net  Wed Jun 29 21:17:47 2011
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>, Fatai Zhang <zhangfatai@huawei.com>, 'Igor Bryskin' <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>, "'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 21:12:41 -0700
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Cc: 'CCAMP' <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Fatai,

I had one clarification.  Multi-stage labels can be used on links, in which=
 case the 'containing hierarchical LSP' is the link's OUDk/OTUk, and they w=
ould be more efficient than signaling multiple one hop sub-layer LSPs.

However, I seriously doubt than this will be a common case, because having =
awareness of individual ODUjs in the core of the network in inherently less=
 scalable than having multi-hop multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.

Thanks,

John

Sent from my iPhone


If ODU3 FA between B and D is already there, the FA should be regarded as o=
ne-hop, because there is no difference between one-hop FA and one-hop link.=
 So, this scenario should be treated as one-hop scenario rather than multi-=
hop (Please pay attention to this sentence that we are trying to make you u=
nderstood many times).

JD:  I told Sergio and you  last week that I didn't think multi-stage label=
s for links (one hop) were interesting or useful, and that I only considere=
d them useful in the context of multi-hop multistage hierarchical LSPs.  Th=
e signaling within the containing hierarchical LSP is between that LSP endp=
oints so it is one hop.


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nk=3Dpurple style=3D'text-justify-trim:punctuation'><div class=3DWordSectio=
n1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Fata=
i,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0p=
t;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>I had one clarification.&nbsp; Multi-=
stage labels can be used on links, in which case the &#8216;containing hier=
archical LSP&#8217; is the link&#8217;s OUDk/OTUk, and they would be more e=
fficient than signaling multiple one hop sub-layer LSPs.<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0p=
t;color:#1F497D'>However, I seriously doubt than this will be a common case=
, because having awareness of individual ODUjs in the core of the network i=
n inherently less scalable than having multi-hop multi-stage hierarchical L=
SPs.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.=
0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span s=
tyle=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#=
1F497D'>John<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-=
size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0p=
t;color:#1F497D'>Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3D=
MsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/span></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 4.0pt'><div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;pad=
ding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:=
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:12.0pt'>If ODU3 FA between B and D is already there, the FA should b=
e regarded as one-hop, because there is no difference between one-hop FA an=
d one-hop link. So, this scenario should be treated as one-hop scenario rat=
her than multi-hop (Please pay attention to this sentence that we are tryin=
g to make you understood many times).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span=
></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>JD=
:&nbsp; I told Sergio and you &nbsp;last week that I didn&#8217;t think mul=
ti-stage labels for links (one hop) were interesting or useful, and that I =
only considered them useful in the context of multi-hop multistage hierarch=
ical LSPs.&nbsp; The signaling within the containing hierarchical LSP is be=
tween that LSP endpoints so it is one hop.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D=
MsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/span></p></div></div></div></div></body></html>=

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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Hi John,

=20

OK, Let=A1=AFs converge.=20

=20

I think you will agree that multi-stage labels can only be used for some
cases rather than universal cases.  Based on this example below, we can
create ODU3 FA LSP and then use one single stage muxing (ie., =
ODU0->ODU3).
Another alternative is to create ODU2 FA LSP and then use one single =
stage
muxing (ODU0->ODU2).  For these two ways, there is no need to use
multi-stage labels. I think you can understand that these two ways are
better and more efficient than your approach (two stages =
(ODU0->ODU2->ODU3)
+ODU3 FA-LSP).

=20

In addition, we are merging our drafts with [draft- Khuzema] to give the
flexibility for the people to choose what they prefer for multi-stage =
muxing
scenario, either (single stage + H-LSP) or multi-stage labels in some =
cases.
We have figured out a perfect unified solution. If people like =
multi-stage
labels, they can choose this approach to use. If people do not like
multi-stage labels, they can just choose single stage + H-LSP.=20

=20

=20

=20

Fatai

=20

Thanks

=20

=20

=20

From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]=20
Sent: 2011=C4=EA6=D4=C230=C8=D5 12:13
To: John E Drake; Fatai Zhang; 'Igor Bryskin'; 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO
(PIETRO VITTORIO)'
Cc: 'CCAMP'
Subject: RE: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

=20

Fatai,

=20

I had one clarification.  Multi-stage labels can be used on links, in =
which
case the =A1=AEcontaining hierarchical LSP=A1=AF is the link=A1=AFs =
OUDk/OTUk, and they
would be more efficient than signaling multiple one hop sub-layer LSPs.

=20

However, I seriously doubt than this will be a common case, because =
having
awareness of individual ODUjs in the core of the network in inherently =
less
scalable than having multi-hop multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.

=20

Thanks,

=20

John

=20

Sent from my iPhone

=20

=20

From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]=20
Sent: 2011=C4=EA6=D4=C230=C8=D5 11:37
To: Fatai Zhang; 'Igor Bryskin'; 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO =
VITTORIO)'
Cc: 'CCAMP'
Subject: RE: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

=20

Fatai,

=20

Comments inline.

=20

Thanks,

=20

John

=20

Sent from my iPhone

=20

From: Fatai Zhang [mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 7:25 PM
To: John E Drake; 'Igor Bryskin'; 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO
VITTORIO)'
Cc: 'CCAMP'
Subject: RE: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

=20

Hi John,

=20

So, you admit that ODU0->ODU2->ODU3 cannot be created directly by
multi-stage label approach if there is no hierarchical ODU3 before ODU0
request? because you assume that a hierarchical ODU3 (FA) is already =
there.

=20

JD:  Absolutely.  I think I actually stipulated this in an email I sent =
you
and others some months back.  The basic idea is that you create the
containing hierarchical  LSP first and then use it to establish  OUDj =
client
LSPs and their required sub-layer LSPs as needed, with the sub-layer =
LSPs
being established using one of the two proposals being discussed.

=20

A few points for clarification, even though I follow your thought.

=20

How to create the ODU3 FA before ODU0 request? I think it is still H-LSP
concept there.

=20

JD:  Absolutely.  If the ODU0 Path message arrives at B, B holds it,
establishes the ODU3 containing hierarchical LSP to D,  and then =
*either*=20

=20

1)      Creates the ODU2 sub-layer by signaling D and then sends the =
ODU0
Path message to D *OR*

2)      Sends the ODU0 Path message to D along with the multi-stage =
label
for the ODU2 LSP

=20

If ODU3 FA between B and D is already there, the FA should be regarded =
as
one-hop, because there is no difference between one-hop FA and one-hop =
link.
So, this scenario should be treated as one-hop scenario rather than
multi-hop (Please pay attention to this sentence that we are trying to =
make
you understood many times).

=20

JD:  I told Sergio and you  last week that I didn=A1=AFt think =
multi-stage
labels for links (one hop) were interesting or useful, and that I only
considered them useful in the context of multi-hop multistage =
hierarchical
LSPs.  The signaling within the containing hierarchical LSP is between =
that
LSP endpoints so it is one hop.

=20

If ODU3 between B and D is already there based on this example, why it =
needs
to use two stage muxing (ODU0->ODU2->ODU3), why not just use the simple =
one
stage muxing (ie.,ODU0->ODU3)?  Please review our slides again to get =
more
information about cons of multi-stage muxing(slide 5).

=20

JD:  You could, if that branch is also supported.  In your figure I had
mentally edited out the ODU0 -> ODU3 branch so that we had an =
interesting
scenario to discuss.

=20

Thanks
=20
Fatai

=20

From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]=20
Sent: 2011=C4=EA6=D4=C229=C8=D5 23:39
To: Fatai Zhang; 'Igor Bryskin'; 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO =
VITTORIO)'
Cc: 'CCAMP'
Subject: RE: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

=20

Fatai,

=20

Let=A1=AFs assume we have a containing hierarchical ODU3 between node B =
and node
D over which we want to establish and ODU0.  Using the sub-layer
hierarchical LSP approach, we would signal a sub-layer ODU2 hierarchical =
LSP
between B and D and then signal the ODU0.  With multi-stage labels we =
would
signal the ODU0 and include an ODU2 multi-stage label.

=20

As I have repeatedly said, either can be made to work with some non-zero
amount of effort, but my preference is for multi-stage labels, strictly =
from
an efficiency perspective.  There isn=A1=AFt enough difference between =
the two
approaches to warrant standardizing both.

=20

Thanks,

=20

John

=20

Sent from my iPhone

=20

From: Fatai Zhang [mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 1:59 AM
To: John E Drake; 'Igor Bryskin'; 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO
VITTORIO)'
Cc: 'CCAMP'
Subject: RE: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

=20

Hi John,

=20

Agree with Igor that let emotions aside if there was some improper =
wording.
Let=A1=AFs discuss tech.

=20

Could you clarify your point 1) a little more? Here is a simple example
shown below.=20

=20

Could you explain how to create ODU0 connection from Node A to Node E by
multi-stage labels approach? What information (e.g., traffic parameters,
labels) should be carried in the Path or Resv message? What action =
should be
taken for Node C when receiving the Path or Resv message?

=20

=20

=20

cid:image001.png@01CC372D.B2E43CE0

=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

Thanks

=20

Fatai

=20

=20

-----Original Message-----
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of
John E Drake
Sent: 2011=C4=EA6=D4=C229=C8=D5 6:12
To: Igor Bryskin; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
Cc: CCAMP
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

=20

Igor,

=20

I have a few clarifications.

=20

1)  Multi-stage labels apply equally well to multi-hop hierarchical =
LSPs.
(The is the point some people do not seem to understand.)

=20

2)  It is incorrect to say that LSP hierarchy, as is, just works for the
establishment of a hierarchical LSP that supports multi-stage switching.
This involves a nested set of hierarchical LSPs, the containing =
hierarchical
LSP and the set of sub-layer LSPs which provide context for intermediate
stage labels, between the same two endpoints.  This is a new construct =
and
there are almost certainly details to be worked out.

=20

3)  I don't think we should standardize both approaches.  I would prefer
that the working group pick one to standardize.

=20

Thanks,

=20

John

=20

Sent from my iPhone

=20

=20

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com]

> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 9:24 AM

> To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); John E Drake

> Cc: CCAMP

> Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

>=20

> Hi Pietro,

>=20

> You may not like John's tone, but emotions aside, what he keeps saying

> repeatedly in this discussion does make perfect sense to me.

> 1) The point of CP signaling is to convey information pertinent to

> network element provisioning in most efficient way. It does seem =
stupid

> to signal numerous one hop hierarchical LSPs (when it is sufficient a

> single end-to-end round of signaling to do the job), create and =
support

> numerous extra CP states, take care of all restart implications, etc.

> just to be consistent with RFC_XYZ written 10 years ago;

> 2) Besides, you can think of multi-stage label as identification of a

> new type of network resources controlled by GMPLS. Even the GMPLS god-

> fathers would agree that they never meant to limit GMPLS to control =
the

> resources described in early CCAMP RFCs.

> 3) Finally, no one ever said that you cannot orchestrate multi-stage

> provisioning through the hierarchy of LSPs if you choose to do so.

>=20

> Cheers,

> Igor

>=20

> -----Original Message-----

> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf

> Of GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)

> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 10:43 AM

> To: John E Drake

> Cc: CCAMP

> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

>=20

> Hello John,

>=20

> 1) You have forwarded to the CCamp mailing list a number of private

> mails without asking the permission to the involved people. This is

> impolite and unprofessional.

>=20

> 2) You are creating spam on the mailing list forwarding four threads

> that are each hundreds of lines long and very complicated to follow =
for

> people not involved in the discussion since the beginning. Moreover,

> this happened after a discussion from scratch was already started in

> the mailing list.

>=20

> 3) You moved from a technical discussion to arrogant and deliberate

> personal offenses not supported by any sound technical motivation as

> reported in your mails and snipped below:

>=20

> "This shows a complete lack of understanding of hierarchical LSP,

> multi-stage labels, and GMPLS in general.  It is so bad it is not even

> wrong."

>=20

> " It might be more precise to say I reviewed your slides and found

> them, shall we say, lacking."

>=20

> We hope that from now on the discussion can be continued from a purely

> technical point of view.

>=20

> Pietro, Sergio and Daniele

>=20

> =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

> Pietro Vittorio Grandi

> Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution

> Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)

> Tel: +39 039 686 4930

> Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com

> =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

> Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.

> Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute. =
That's

> relativity.

> (A. Einstein)

>=20

> -----Original Message-----

> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf

> Of John E Drake

> Sent: marted=A8=AC 28 giugno 2011 14.13

> To: CCAMP

> Subject: [CCAMP] FW: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

>=20

>=20

>=20

> Sent from my iPhone

>=20

>=20

> -----Original Message-----

> From: John E Drake

> Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 3:56 PM

> To: 'Fatai Zhang'; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)

> Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan

> Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -

> Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham; =
BELOTTI,

> SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli

> Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

>=20

> Fatai,

>=20

> Comments inline.

>=20

> Thanks,

>=20

> John

>=20

> Sent from my iPhone

>=20

>=20

> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: Fatai Zhang [mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com]

> > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 9:45 AM

> > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); John E Drake

> > Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan

> > Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -

> > Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham;

> BELOTTI,

> > SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli

> > Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

> >

> > Hi John,

> >

> > I guess that you did not review our slides carefully.

>=20

> JD:  I will let this pass.

>=20

> >

> > You just see the only advantage for the corner case (i.e., establish

> > multi-layers LSP concurrently), but you did not see the issues that

> we

> > described in the slides and the issues that Jonathan mentioned (eg.,

> > OAM/protection issues).

>=20

> JD:  I'm sorry that I didn't provide enough context.  I don't think =
the

> one-hop hierarchical LSP case, w/ or w/o multi-stage labels is either

> interesting or common and it was not the case to which I was =
addressing

> my comments.  Rather, I was describing two ways of establishing multi-

> hop multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.  As far as I can tell the issues

> Jonathan raised in this context are red herrings rather than blue

> whales.  Furthermore, regardless of which of the two approaches I

> described is used, the issues, if any, would be exactly the same.

>=20

> >

> > In addition, we have repeated many times that LSP hierarchy must be

> > used in many cases, even though we have multi-stage label approach.

> > E.g., an ODU0 connection request from A to E through B, C and D, but

> B,

> > C and  D (or one of them ) can not support ODU0 switching, the HO

> ODUj

> > (ODU1 or ODU2 or ODU3 or ODU4) LSP must be created between B and D

> > through LSP hierarchy. This example is very simple and there are =
lots

> > of transforms for this example to use LSP hierarchy.

>=20

> JD:  Please see above.  I completely agree with you and was simply

> pointing out that multi-stage labels can be used to improve wrt =
latency

> and control plane overhead, the establishment of ODUj LSPs within

> multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.

>=20

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Fatai

> >

> > Thanks

> > ----- Original Message -----

> > From: "John E Drake" <jdrake@juniper.net>

> > To: "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)"

> > <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>

> > Cc: "Daniele Ceccarelli" <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>; "Rajan

> Rao"

> > <rrao@infinera.com>; "Fatai Zhang" <zhangfatai@huawei.com>; "Khuzema

> > Pithewan" <kpithewan@infinera.com>; "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)"

> > <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>; "Ashok Kunjidhapatham"

> > <akunjidhapatham@infinera.com>; "Diego Caviglia"

> > <diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>; "Steve Balls"

> > <Steve.Balls@metaswitch.com>; "Ciena - Lyndon Ong" =
<LyOng@Ciena.com>;

> > <fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; "NSN - Cyril Margaria"

> <cyril.margaria@nsn.com>;

> > "Li Dan" <huawei.danli@huawei.com>; "Jonathan Hardwick"

> > <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>; "Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler"

> > <jonathan.sadler@tellabs.com>; "Vallinayakam Somasundaram"

> > <valli@juniper.net>

> > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 7:21 PM

> > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

> >

> >

> > Pietro,

> >

> > If we are talking about the establishment of LSPs using single-stage

> > muxing, I think the only thing necessary is a new label format, =
which

> I

> > believe is a bit map of tributary slots; i.e., LSP establishment

> using

> > single-stage muxing is done.

> >

> > We have never had a situation such as multi-stage muxing before so =
we

> > are breaking new ground and we have two choices, either use LSP

> > hierarchy to establish multiple single-stage sub-layer LSPs

> explicitly

> > and sequentially, or include the sub-layer information within the

> Path

> > message for the ODUj such that the sub-layers are established

> > implicitly and concurrently with the establishment of the ODUj.

> >

> > Either will work, but it seems to me that the latter is more

> efficient

> > wrt latency and control plane overhead.  The one thing I do not want

> to

> > do is to say that both are supported.  If we can agree that we will

> > only use one method to establish multi-stage LSPs, then when a node

> > advertises multi-stage support in routing, we know how signaling is

> to

> > be accomplished.

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

> > John

> >

> > Sent from my iPhone

> >

> >

> > > -----Original Message-----

> > > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)

> > > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]

> > > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 1:31 AM

> > > To: John E Drake

> > > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;

> > > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;

> Steve

> > > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril

> Margaria;

> > > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam

> > > Somasundaram; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)

> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

> > >

> > > John,

> > >

> > > It seems as though you consider on the same level something (H-LSP

> > > concept) already used in CP managing multi-layer with something

> that

> > > does not exist at all.

> > > Operators are used to managed their CP network together with NMS.

> > > Most of the NMS work per-layer. The utilization of a multi-stage

> > label

> > > would force NMS to work in another manner with heavy =
implementation

> > > consequences.

> > >

> > > We should also keep in mind that multi-stage label approach can

> only

> > be

> > > used in some cases (not for all the one-hop multi-stage muxing) =
and

> > it

> > > will bring some management issues. Please see the slides that =
Fatai

> > > sent a few days ago.

> > >

> > > For both these reasons the "optional" condition of multi-stage

> label

> > > concept is absolutely mandatory for us.

> > >

> > > Pietro, Sergio, Fatai & Daniele

> > >

> > > =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

> > > Pietro Vittorio Grandi

> > > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution

> > > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)

> > > Tel: +39 039 686 4930

> > > Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com

> > > =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

> > > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an

> hour.

> > > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.

> > That's

> > > relativity.

> > > (A. Einstein)

> > >

> > >

> > > -----Original Message-----

> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]

> > > Sent: sabato 18 giugno 2011 2.40

> > > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)

> > > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;

> > > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;

> Steve

> > > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril

> Margaria;

> > > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam

> > > Somasundaram

> > > Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

> > >

> > > Pietro,

> > >

> > > We can certainly say that a node that advertises multistage

> switching

> > > support in routing MUST support multistage signaling.

> > >

> > > As I said before, using mutiple RSVP exchanges between the same =
LSP

> > > endpoints to establish intermediate switching stages seems ill-

> > > considered and forcing everyone to support two ways of signaling

> > > multistage LSPs seems like a really Bad Idea.

> > >

> > > John

> > >

> > > Sent from my iPhone

> > >

> > > On Jun 17, 2011, at 2:55 AM, "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO

> > > VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-

> > > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>>

> wrote:

> > >

> > > Hello John,

> > >

> > > I understand that you think that the new switching type in routing

> > > should also convey implicitly the information that a

> > > multi-stage label is supported.

> > >

> > > I do not agree with this statement.

> > > Implementations using H-LSPs plus single stage labels are possible

> > (and

> > > already standard) and the fact the a node supports

> > > the new switching type is not enough to clearly tell what is

> > supported.

> > >

> > > Pietro

> > >

> > > ________________________________

> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]

> > > Sent: venerd=A8=AC 17 giugno 2011 2.09

> > > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); Daniele Ceccarelli;

> > > Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO =
(SERGIO);

> > > Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena -

> Lyndon

> > > Ong'; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn
<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn%3cmailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>
<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril

> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan

> > Sadler';

> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram

> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

> > >

> > > Pietro,

> > >

> > > Actually we are already covered.   Our advertisements use a

> different

> > > switching type, which is also carried in signaling.  This means

> that

> > we

> > > get to define the signaling used for this switching type, and I am

> > > proposing that we use multistage.

> > >

> > > Thanks,

> > >

> > > John

> > >

> > > Sent from my iPhone

> > >

> > > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)

> > > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]

> > > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 6:52 AM

> > > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang;

> Khuzema

> > > Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego

> > > Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';

> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn =
<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn%3cmailto:fu.xihua@zte.
com.cn> <mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril

> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan

> > Sadler';

> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram

> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

> > >

> > > Hi all,

> > >

> > > I  agree with Daniele' statement.

> > >

> > > in my mind this means that single stage label support is implicit

> and

> > > that

> > > multi-stage labels should not be used unless a machine explicitly

> > > declares the support.

> > >

> > > Pietro

> > >

> > >

> > > =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

> > > Pietro Vittorio Grandi

> > > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution

> > > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)

> > > Tel: +39 039 686 4930

> > > Mail: <mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>

> > > pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-

> > > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>

> > > =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

> > > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an

> hour.

> > > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.

> > That's

> > > relativity.

> > > (A. Einstein)

> > >

> > > ________________________________

> > > From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]

> > > Sent: gioved=A8=AC 16 giugno 2011 15.48

> > > To: John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;

> BELOTTI,

> > > SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO

> > (PIETRO

> > > VITTORIO); Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';

> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn =
<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn%3cmailto:fu.xihua@zte.
com.cn> <mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril

> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan

> > Sadler';

> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram

> > > Subject: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

> > >

> > > Starting a new thread as we're now moving to signaling...

> > >

> > > Assuming we still have not decided whether we're going to support

> > > single stage only, multi stage only or both of them i believe that

> as

> > > per OSPF we need to consider backward compatibility.

> > >

> > > An implementation RFC4328 based (that we've explicitly been told

> not

> > to

> > > deprecate) is single stage based, so in case of multi stage only =
or

> > > multi-stage + single stage we should be able to cover backward

> > > compatibility issues somehow.

> > >

> > > BR

> > > Daniele

> > >

> > > ________________________________

> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]

> > > Sent: gioved=A8=AC 16 giugno 2011 8.53

> > > To: Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;

> > > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham

> > > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;

> > 'Steve

> > > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';

> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn =
<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn%3cmailto:fu.xihua@zte.
com.cn> <mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril

> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan

> > Sadler';

> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram

> > > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for

> multi-

> > > stage Vs Single Stage labels)

> > > Rajan,

> > >

> > > I didn't want to allow interoperability options.  I much preferred

> to

> > > say that we do signaling in one way only, using multistage labels.

> > > These are also needed for signaling within  hierarchical LSPs.

> > >

> > > Thanks,

> > >

> > > John

> > >

> > > Sent from my iPhone

> > >

> > > From: Rajan Rao [mailto:rrao@infinera.com]

> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 10:46 PM

> > > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; John E Drake; Khuzema

> Pithewan;

> > > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham

> > > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;

> > 'Steve

> > > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';

> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn =
<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn%3cmailto:fu.xihua@zte.
com.cn> <mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril

> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan

> > Sadler';

> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram

> > > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for

> multi-

> > > stage Vs Single Stage labels)

> > >

> > > Hi,

> > >

> > > While we are making updates, let us discuss support required in

> link

> > > advertisement for single/multi-stage label options:

> > >

> > > Given that there is interest in both multi-stage label and single-

> > stage

> > > with H-LSPs, we should consider inclusion of a FLAG to indicate

> what

> > > the link is capable of.  This will address some of the issues we

> have

> > > discussed in the past relating to path computation involving NEs

> with

> > > different capabilities (inter-op).

> > >

> > > Thanks

> > > Rajan

> _______________________________________________

> CCAMP mailing list

> CCAMP@ietf.org

> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

> _______________________________________________

> CCAMP mailing list

> CCAMP@ietf.org

> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

_______________________________________________

CCAMP mailing list

CCAMP@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DZH-CN link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple style=3D'text-justify-trim:punctuation'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Hi =
John,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>OK, Let=A1=AFs converge. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>I think you will agree that =
multi-stage labels can only be used for some cases rather than universal =
cases. &nbsp;Based on this example below, we can create ODU3 FA LSP and =
then use one single stage muxing (ie., ODU0-&gt;ODU3). Another =
alternative is to create ODU2 FA LSP and then use one single stage =
muxing (ODU0-&gt;ODU2). &nbsp;For these two ways, there is no need to =
use multi-stage labels. I think you can understand that these two ways =
are better and more efficient than your approach (two stages =
(ODU0-&gt;ODU2-&gt;ODU3) +ODU3 FA-LSP).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>In addition, we are merging our =
drafts with [draft-</span><span lang=3DEN-US> </span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Khuzema] to give the =
flexibility for the people to choose what they prefer for multi-stage =
muxing scenario, either (single stage + H-LSP) or multi-stage labels in =
some cases. We have figured out a perfect unified solution. If people =
like multi-stage labels, they can choose this approach to use. If people =
do not like multi-stage labels, they can just choose single stage + =
H-LSP. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Fatai<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> John E =
Drake <a =
href=3D"mailto:[mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]">[mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]</=
a> <br><b>Sent:</b> 2011</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5'>=C4=EA</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>6</span><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5'>=D4=C2</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>30</span><sp=
an =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5'>=C8=D5</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
12:13<br><b>To:</b> John E Drake; Fatai Zhang; 'Igor Bryskin'; 'GRANDI, =
PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'<br><b>Cc:</b> =
'CCAMP'<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi =
stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Fatai,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>I had one clarification.&nbsp; =
Multi-stage labels can be used on links, in which case the =
=A1=AEcontaining hierarchical LSP=A1=AF is the link=A1=AFs OUDk/OTUk, =
and they would be more efficient than signaling multiple one hop =
sub-layer LSPs.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>However, I seriously doubt than =
this will be a common case, because having awareness of individual ODUjs =
in the core of the network in inherently less scalable than having =
multi-hop multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>John<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Sent from my =
iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft =
style=3D'text-align:left'><b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> John E =
Drake <a =
href=3D"mailto:[mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]">[mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]</=
a> <br><b>Sent:</b> 2011</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5'>=C4=EA</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>6</span><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5'>=D4=C2</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>30</span><sp=
an =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5'>=C8=D5</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
11:37<br><b>To:</b> Fatai Zhang; 'Igor Bryskin'; 'GRANDI, PIETRO =
VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'<br><b>Cc:</b> 'CCAMP'<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: =
[CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi =
stage<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft =
style=3D'text-align:left'><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Fatai,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Comments =
inline.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>John<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div=
><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Sent from my =
iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div=
 style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft =
style=3D'text-align:left'><b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Fatai =
Zhang <a =
href=3D"mailto:[mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com]">[mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.=
com]</a> <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 29, 2011 7:25 PM<br><b>To:</b> =
John E Drake; 'Igor Bryskin'; 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO =
VITTORIO)'<br><b>Cc:</b> 'CCAMP'<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN =
single stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Hi John,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>So, you =
admit that ODU0-&gt;ODU2-&gt;ODU3 cannot be created directly by =
multi-stage label approach if there is no hierarchical ODU3 before ODU0 =
request? because you assume that a hierarchical ODU3 (FA) is already =
there.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>JD:&nbsp; Absolutely.&nbsp; I =
think I actually stipulated this in an email I sent you and others some =
months back.&nbsp; The basic idea is that you create the containing =
hierarchical &nbsp;LSP first and then use it to establish &nbsp;OUDj =
client &nbsp;LSPs and their required sub-layer LSPs as needed, with the =
sub-layer LSPs being established using one of the two proposals being =
discussed.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>A few =
points for clarification, even though I follow your =
thought.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>How to =
create the ODU3 FA before ODU0 request? I think it is still H-LSP =
concept there.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>JD:&nbsp; Absolutely.&nbsp; If =
the ODU0 Path message arrives at B, B holds it, establishes the ODU3 =
containing hierarchical LSP to D, &nbsp;and then *<b>either</b>* =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Creates the ODU2 sub-layer by =
signaling D and then sends the ODU0 Path message to D =
*<b>OR</b>*<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if =
!supportLists]><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Sends the ODU0 Path message to =
D along with the multi-stage label for the ODU2 =
LSP<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>If ODU3 =
FA between B and D is already there, the FA should be regarded as =
one-hop, because there is no difference between one-hop FA and one-hop =
link. So, this scenario should be treated as one-hop scenario rather =
than multi-hop (Please pay attention to this sentence that we are trying =
to make you understood many times).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>JD:&nbsp; I told Sergio and you =
&nbsp;last week that I didn=A1=AFt think multi-stage labels for links =
(one hop) were interesting or useful, and that I only considered them =
useful in the context of multi-hop multistage hierarchical LSPs.&nbsp; =
The signaling within the containing hierarchical LSP is between that LSP =
endpoints so it is one hop.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>If ODU3 =
between B and D is already there based on this example, why it needs to =
use two stage muxing (ODU0-&gt;ODU2-&gt;ODU3), why not just use the =
simple one stage muxing (ie.,ODU0-&gt;ODU3)? &nbsp;Please review our =
slides again to get more information about cons of multi-stage =
muxing(slide 5).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>JD:&nbsp; You could, if that =
branch is also supported.&nbsp; In your figure I had mentally edited out =
the ODU0 -&gt; ODU3 branch so that we had an interesting scenario to =
discuss.</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Thanks<br>&nbsp;<br>Fatai<o:p></o:p></span></p=
></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft =
style=3D'text-align:left'><b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> John E =
Drake <a =
href=3D"mailto:[mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]">[mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]</=
a> <br><b>Sent:</b> 2011</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5'>=C4=EA</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>6</span><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5'>=D4=C2</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>29</span><sp=
an =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5'>=C8=D5</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
23:39<br><b>To:</b> Fatai Zhang; 'Igor Bryskin'; 'GRANDI, PIETRO =
VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'<br><b>Cc:</b> 'CCAMP'<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: =
[CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi =
stage<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft =
style=3D'text-align:left'><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Fatai,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Let=A1=AFs assume we have a =
containing hierarchical ODU3 between node B and node D over which we =
want to establish and ODU0.&nbsp; Using the sub-layer hierarchical LSP =
approach, we would signal a sub-layer ODU2 hierarchical LSP between B =
and D and then signal the ODU0.&nbsp; With multi-stage labels we would =
signal the ODU0 and include an ODU2 multi-stage =
label.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>As I have repeatedly said, =
either can be made to work with some non-zero amount of effort, but my =
preference is for multi-stage labels, strictly from an efficiency =
perspective.&nbsp; There isn=A1=AFt enough difference between the two =
approaches to warrant standardizing both.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>John<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div=
><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Sent from my =
iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div=
 style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft =
style=3D'text-align:left'><b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Fatai =
Zhang <a =
href=3D"mailto:[mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com]">[mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.=
com]</a> <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 29, 2011 1:59 AM<br><b>To:</b> =
John E Drake; 'Igor Bryskin'; 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO =
VITTORIO)'<br><b>Cc:</b> 'CCAMP'<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN =
single stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Hi John,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Agree with Igor that let emotions aside if there was some =
improper wording. Let</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>=A1=AF</span><span lang=3DEN-US>s =
discuss tech.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Could you clarify your point 1) a little more? Here is a =
simple example shown below. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>Could you explain how to create =
ODU0 connection from Node A to Node E by multi-stage labels approach? =
What information (e.g., traffic parameters, labels) should be carried in =
the Path or Resv message? What action should be taken for Node C when =
receiving the Path or Resv message?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US><img border=3D0 width=3D926 =
height=3D226 id=3D"Picture_x0020_1" =
src=3D"cid:image001.png@01CC372D.B2E43CE0" =
alt=3D"cid:image001.png@01CC372D.B2E43CE0"></span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Fatai<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>-----Original Message-----<br>From: <a =
href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a> <a =
href=3D"mailto:[mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org]">[mailto:ccamp-bounces@iet=
f.org]</a> On Behalf Of John E Drake<br>Sent: 2011</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5'>=C4=EA</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US>6</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5'>=D4=C2</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US>29</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5'>=C8=D5</span><span lang=3DEN-US> =
6:12<br>To: Igor Bryskin; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO =
VITTORIO)<br>Cc: CCAMP<br>Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs =
multi stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Igor,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>I have a few clarifications.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>1)&nbsp; Multi-stage labels =
apply equally well to multi-hop hierarchical LSPs. (The is the point =
some people do not seem to understand.)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>2)&nbsp; It is incorrect to say =
that LSP hierarchy, as is, just works for the establishment of a =
hierarchical LSP that supports multi-stage switching.&nbsp; This =
involves a nested set of hierarchical LSPs, the containing hierarchical =
LSP and the set of sub-layer LSPs which provide context for intermediate =
stage labels, between the same two endpoints.&nbsp; This is a new =
construct and there are almost certainly details to be worked =
out.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>3)&nbsp; I don't think we should standardize both =
approaches.&nbsp; I would prefer that the working group pick one to =
standardize.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>John<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; -----Original =
Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; From: Igor Bryskin <a =
href=3D"mailto:[mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com]">[mailto:IBryskin@advaop=
tical.com]</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 9:24 =
AM<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); John E =
Drake<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Cc: CCAMP<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Subject: RE: RSVP OTN =
single stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Hi =
Pietro,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; You may not like John's =
tone, but emotions aside, what he keeps saying<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; repeatedly in this =
discussion does make perfect sense to me.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; 1) The point of CP =
signaling is to convey information pertinent to<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; network element =
provisioning in most efficient way. It does seem =
stupid<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; to signal numerous one hop hierarchical LSPs (when it =
is sufficient a<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; single end-to-end round of signaling to do the job), =
create and support<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; numerous extra CP states, take care of all restart =
implications, etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; just to be consistent with RFC_XYZ written 10 years =
ago;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; 2) Besides, you can think of multi-stage label as =
identification of a<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; new type of network resources controlled by GMPLS. =
Even the GMPLS god-<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; fathers would agree that they never meant to limit =
GMPLS to control the<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; resources described in early CCAMP =
RFCs.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; 3) Finally, no one ever said that you cannot =
orchestrate multi-stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; provisioning through the =
hierarchy of LSPs if you choose to do so.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Igor<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; -----Original =
Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; From: <a =
href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a> <a =
href=3D"mailto:[mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org]">[mailto:ccamp-bounces@iet=
f.org]</a> On Behalf<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Of GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO =
VITTORIO)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 10:43 =
AM<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
To: John E Drake<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Cc: CCAMP<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP =
OTN single stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Hello =
John,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; 1) You have forwarded to =
the CCamp mailing list a number of private<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; mails without asking the =
permission to the involved people. This is<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; impolite and =
unprofessional.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; 2) You are creating spam on =
the mailing list forwarding four threads<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; that are each hundreds of =
lines long and very complicated to follow for<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; people not involved in the =
discussion since the beginning. Moreover,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; this happened after a =
discussion from scratch was already started in<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; the mailing =
list.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; 3) You moved from a =
technical discussion to arrogant and deliberate<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; personal offenses not =
supported by any sound technical motivation as<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; reported in your mails and =
snipped below:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &quot;This shows a complete =
lack of understanding of hierarchical LSP,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; multi-stage labels, and =
GMPLS in general.&nbsp; It is so bad it is not =
even<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; wrong.&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &quot; It might be more =
precise to say I reviewed your slides and found<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; them, shall we say, =
lacking.&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; We hope that from now on =
the discussion can be continued from a purely<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; technical point of =
view.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Pietro, Sergio and =
Daniele<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Pietro Vittorio =
Grandi<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Terrestrial Optics Portfolio =
Evolution<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate =
(Italy)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Tel: +39 039 686 4930<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Mail: <a =
href=3D"mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com">pietro_vittorio=
.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Put your hand on a =
hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an =
hour.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like =
a&nbsp; minute. That's<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
relativity.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; (A. Einstein)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; -----Original =
Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; From: <a =
href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a> <a =
href=3D"mailto:[mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org]">[mailto:ccamp-bounces@iet=
f.org]</a> On Behalf<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Of John E Drake<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Sent: marted</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>=A8=AC</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US> 28 giugno 2011 14.13<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; To: =
CCAMP<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Subject: [CCAMP] FW: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi =
stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Sent from my =
iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; -----Original =
Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; From: John E Drake<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Sent: Thursday, June 23, =
2011 3:56 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; To: 'Fatai Zhang'; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO =
VITTORIO)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan =
Sadler; Jonathan<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; <a =
href=3D"mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn">fu.xihua@zte.com.cn</a>; Ciena =
-<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham; =
BELOTTI,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele =
Ceccarelli<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi =
stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
Fatai,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Comments =
inline.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
John<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Sent from my =
iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; -----Original =
Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; From: Fatai Zhang <a =
href=3D"mailto:[mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com]">[mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.=
com]</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 9:45 =
AM<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt; To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); John E =
Drake<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan =
Sadler; Jonathan<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; <a =
href=3D"mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn">fu.xihua@zte.com.cn</a>; Ciena =
-<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt; Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok =
Kunjidhapatham;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; BELOTTI,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; SERGIO (SERGIO); =
Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: RSVP OTN =
single stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Hi John,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; I guess that you did not review our slides =
carefully.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; JD:&nbsp; I will let this =
pass.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; You just see the only advantage for the corner =
case (i.e., establish<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; multi-layers LSP concurrently), but you did not =
see the issues that<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; we<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; described in the slides and the issues that =
Jonathan mentioned (eg.,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; OAM/protection =
issues).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; JD:&nbsp; I'm sorry that I =
didn't provide enough context.&nbsp; I don't think =
the<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
one-hop hierarchical LSP case, w/ or w/o multi-stage labels is =
either<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; interesting or common and it was not the case to which =
I was addressing<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; my comments.&nbsp; Rather, I was describing two ways =
of establishing multi-<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; hop multi-stage =
hierarchical LSPs.&nbsp; As far as I can tell the =
issues<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Jonathan raised in this context are red herrings =
rather than blue<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; whales.&nbsp; Furthermore, regardless of which of the =
two approaches I<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; described is used, the issues, if any, would be =
exactly the same.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; In addition, we have repeated many times that LSP =
hierarchy must be<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; used in many cases, even though we have =
multi-stage label approach.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; E.g., an ODU0 =
connection request from A to E through B, C and D, =
but<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
B,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt; C and&nbsp; D (or one of them ) can not support ODU0 switching, the =
HO<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
ODUj<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; (ODU1 or ODU2 or ODU3 or ODU4) LSP must be =
created between B and D<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; through LSP hierarchy. =
This example is very simple and there are lots<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; of transforms for this =
example to use LSP hierarchy.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; JD:&nbsp; Please see =
above.&nbsp; I completely agree with you and was =
simply<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; pointing out that multi-stage labels can be used to =
improve wrt latency<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; and control plane overhead, the establishment of ODUj =
LSPs within<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
Fatai<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; ----- Original Message =
-----<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; From: &quot;John E Drake&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net">jdrake@juniper.net</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; To: =
&quot;GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO =
VITTORIO)&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com">pietro_vittorio=
.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Cc: &quot;Daniele =
Ceccarelli&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com">daniele.ceccarelli@ericss=
on.com</a>&gt;; &quot;Rajan<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
Rao&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rrao@infinera.com">rrao@infinera.com</a>&gt;; &quot;Fatai =
Zhang&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com">zhangfatai@huawei.com</a>&gt;; =
&quot;Khuzema<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Pithewan&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:kpithewan@infinera.com">kpithewan@infinera.com</a>&gt;; =
&quot;BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com">sergio.belotti@alcatel-=
lucent.com</a>&gt;; &quot;Ashok =
Kunjidhapatham&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:akunjidhapatham@infinera.com">akunjidhapatham@infinera.com=
</a>&gt;; &quot;Diego Caviglia&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:diego.caviglia@ericsson.com">diego.caviglia@ericsson.com</=
a>&gt;; &quot;Steve Balls&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Steve.Balls@metaswitch.com">Steve.Balls@metaswitch.com</a>=
&gt;; &quot;Ciena - Lyndon Ong&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:LyOng@Ciena.com">LyOng@Ciena.com</a>&gt;;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn">fu.xihua@zte.com.cn</a>&gt;; =
&quot;NSN - Cyril Margaria&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:cyril.margaria@nsn.com">cyril.margaria@nsn.com</a>&gt;;<o:=
p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&quot;Li Dan&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:huawei.danli@huawei.com">huawei.danli@huawei.com</a>&gt;; =
&quot;Jonathan Hardwick&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com">Jonathan.Hardwick@metasw=
itch.com</a>&gt;; &quot;Tellabs - Jonathan =
Sadler&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jonathan.sadler@tellabs.com">jonathan.sadler@tellabs.com</=
a>&gt;; &quot;Vallinayakam Somasundaram&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:valli@juniper.net">valli@juniper.net</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Sent: =
Thursday, June 23, 2011 7:21 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: RSVP OTN =
single stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
Pietro,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; If we are talking =
about the establishment of LSPs using =
single-stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; muxing, I think the only thing necessary is a new =
label format, which<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; I<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; believe is a bit map of tributary slots; i.e., =
LSP establishment<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; using<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; single-stage muxing is =
done.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; We have never had a =
situation such as multi-stage muxing before so =
we<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt; are breaking new ground and we have two choices, either use =
LSP<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt; hierarchy to establish multiple single-stage sub-layer =
LSPs<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; explicitly<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; and sequentially, or =
include the sub-layer information within the<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
Path<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; message for the ODUj such that the sub-layers are =
established<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; implicitly and concurrently with the =
establishment of the ODUj.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Either will work, but it seems to me that the =
latter is more<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; efficient<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; wrt latency and =
control plane overhead.&nbsp; The one thing I do not =
want<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; to<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; do is to say that both are supported.&nbsp; If we =
can agree that we will<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; only use one method to =
establish multi-stage LSPs, then when a node<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; advertises multi-stage =
support in routing, we know how signaling is<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; to<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; be =
accomplished.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
John<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Sent from my =
iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; -----Original =
Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO =
VITTORIO)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; <a =
href=3D"mailto:[mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]">[mailt=
o:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Monday, =
June 20, 2011 1:31 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: John E Drake<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: Daniele =
Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema =
Pithewan;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok =
Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; <a =
href=3D"mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn">fu.xihua@zte.com.cn</a>; NSN - =
Cyril<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Margaria;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Li Dan; Jonathan =
Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; =
Vallinayakam<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Somasundaram; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO =
(PIETRO VITTORIO)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi =
stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
John,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; It seems as =
though you consider on the same level something =
(H-LSP<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; concept) already used in CP managing =
multi-layer with something<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
that<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; does not exist at =
all.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Operators are used to managed their CP =
network together with NMS.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Most of the NMS =
work per-layer. The utilization of a multi-stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
label<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; would force NMS to work in another manner =
with heavy implementation<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
consequences.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; We should also =
keep in mind that multi-stage label approach can<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
only<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; be<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; used in some =
cases (not for all the one-hop multi-stage muxing) =
and<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt; it<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; will bring some management issues. Please =
see the slides that Fatai<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; sent a few days =
ago.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; For both these =
reasons the &quot;optional&quot; condition of =
multi-stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; label<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; concept is =
absolutely mandatory for us.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Pietro, Sergio, Fatai &amp; =
Daniele<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Pietro =
Vittorio Grandi<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Terrestrial Optics Portfolio =
Evolution<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate =
(Italy)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Tel: +39 039 686 =
4930<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Mail: <a =
href=3D"mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com">pietro_vittorio=
.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Put your =
hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like =
an<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
hour.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it =
seems like a&nbsp; minute.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
That's<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; relativity.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; (A. =
Einstein)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; -----Original =
Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; From: John E Drake <a =
href=3D"mailto:[mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]">[mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]</=
a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt; &gt; Sent: sabato 18 giugno 2011 2.40<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: GRANDI, =
PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: Daniele =
Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema =
Pithewan;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok =
Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; <a =
href=3D"mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn">fu.xihua@zte.com.cn</a>; NSN - =
Cyril<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Margaria;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Li Dan; Jonathan =
Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; =
Vallinayakam<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Somasundaram<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: RSVP =
OTN single stage vs multi stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Pietro,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; We can certainly say that a node that =
advertises multistage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; switching<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; support in =
routing MUST support multistage signaling.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; As I said before, using mutiple RSVP =
exchanges between the same LSP<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; endpoints to =
establish intermediate switching stages seems =
ill-<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; considered and forcing everyone to support =
two ways of signaling<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; multistage LSPs seems like a really Bad =
Idea.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
John<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent from my =
iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; On Jun 17, 2011, =
at 2:55 AM, &quot;GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO =
(PIETRO<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; VITTORIO)&quot; =
&lt;pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; lucent.com&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com">mailto:pietro_v=
ittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com</a>&gt;&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Hello =
John,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; I understand that =
you think that the new switching type in routing<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; should also =
convey implicitly the information that a<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; multi-stage label =
is supported.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; I do not agree =
with this statement.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Implementations using H-LSPs plus single =
stage labels are possible<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
(and<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; already standard) and the fact the a node =
supports<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; the new switching type is not enough to =
clearly tell what is<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; supported.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Pietro<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; From: John E =
Drake <a =
href=3D"mailto:[mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]">[mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]</=
a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt; &gt; Sent: venerd</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>=A8=AC</span><span lang=3DEN-US> 17 =
giugno 2011 2.09<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO =
VITTORIO); Daniele Ceccarelli;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Rajan Rao; Fatai =
Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO =
(SERGIO);<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia; 'Steve =
Balls'; 'Ciena -<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Lyndon<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Ong'; <a =
href=3D"mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn%3cmailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn">fu.xihua=
@zte.com.cn&lt;mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn</a>&gt;; 'NSN - =
Cyril<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; =
'Tellabs - Jonathan<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Sadler';<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Vallinayakam =
Somasundaram<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi =
stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
Pietro,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Actually we are =
already covered.&nbsp;&nbsp; Our advertisements use =
a<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
different<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; switching type, which is also carried in =
signaling.&nbsp; This means<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
that<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; we<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; get to define the =
signaling used for this switching type, and I am<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; proposing that we =
use multistage.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
John<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent from my =
iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; From: GRANDI, =
PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; <a =
href=3D"mailto:[mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]">[mailt=
o:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, =
June 16, 2011 6:52 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: Daniele Ceccarelli; John E Drake; Rajan =
Rao; Fatai Zhang;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Khuzema<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Pithewan; =
BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; =
Diego<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon =
Ong';<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; <a =
href=3D"mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn%3cmailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn">fu.xihua=
@zte.com.cn&lt;mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn</a>&gt;; 'NSN - =
Cyril<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; =
'Tellabs - Jonathan<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Sadler';<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Vallinayakam =
Somasundaram<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi =
stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Hi =
all,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; I&nbsp; agree =
with Daniele' statement.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; in my mind this means that single stage =
label support is implicit<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; and<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
that<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; multi-stage labels should not be used unless =
a machine explicitly<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; declares the =
support.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
Pietro<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Pietro =
Vittorio Grandi<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Terrestrial Optics Portfolio =
Evolution<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate =
(Italy)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Tel: +39 039 686 =
4930<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Mail: &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com">mailto:pietro_v=
ittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; <a =
href=3D"mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-">pietro_vittorio.grandi@al=
catel-</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; lucent.com&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com">mailto:pietro_v=
ittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Put your =
hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like =
an<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
hour.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it =
seems like a&nbsp; minute.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
That's<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; relativity.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; (A. =
Einstein)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; From: Daniele =
Ceccarelli <a =
href=3D"mailto:[mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]">[mailto:daniele.=
ceccarelli@ericsson.com]</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: =
gioved</span><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New"'>=A8=AC</span><span lang=3DEN-US> 16 giugno 2011 =
15.48<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; =
Khuzema Pithewan;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; BELOTTI,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; SERGIO (SERGIO); =
Ashok Kunjidhapatham; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
(PIETRO<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; VITTORIO); Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; =
'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; <a =
href=3D"mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn%3cmailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn">fu.xihua=
@zte.com.cn&lt;mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn</a>&gt;; 'NSN - =
Cyril<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; =
'Tellabs - Jonathan<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Sadler';<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Vallinayakam =
Somasundaram<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi =
stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Starting a new =
thread as we're now moving to signaling...<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Assuming we still have not decided whether =
we're going to support<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; single stage =
only, multi stage only or both of them i believe =
that<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; as<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; per OSPF we need to consider backward =
compatibility.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; An implementation =
RFC4328 based (that we've explicitly been told<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; not<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
to<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt; &gt; deprecate) is single stage based, so in case of multi stage =
only or<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; multi-stage + single stage we should be able =
to cover backward<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; compatibility issues =
somehow.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
BR<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt; &gt; Daniele<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; From: John E =
Drake <a =
href=3D"mailto:[mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]">[mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]</=
a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt; &gt; Sent: gioved</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>=A8=AC</span><span lang=3DEN-US> 16 =
giugno 2011 8.53<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai =
Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; 'BELOTTI, SERGIO =
(SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: 'GRANDI, =
PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego =
Caviglia;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; 'Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Balls'; 'Ciena - =
Lyndon Ong';<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; <a =
href=3D"mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn%3cmailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn">fu.xihua=
@zte.com.cn&lt;mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn</a>&gt;; 'NSN - =
Cyril<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; =
'Tellabs - Jonathan<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Sadler';<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Vallinayakam =
Somasundaram<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF =
draft (support for<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; multi-<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; stage Vs Single =
Stage labels)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Rajan,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; I didn't want to allow interoperability =
options.&nbsp; I much preferred<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; to<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; say that we do =
signaling in one way only, using multistage =
labels.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; These are also needed for signaling =
within&nbsp; hierarchical LSPs.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; John<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; From: Rajan Rao <a =
href=3D"mailto:[mailto:rrao@infinera.com]">[mailto:rrao@infinera.com]</a>=
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt; &gt; Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 10:46 =
PM<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt; &gt; To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; John E Drake; =
Khuzema<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; Pithewan;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; 'BELOTTI, SERGIO =
(SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: 'GRANDI, =
PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego =
Caviglia;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; 'Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Balls'; 'Ciena - =
Lyndon Ong';<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; <a =
href=3D"mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn%3cmailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn">fu.xihua=
@zte.com.cn&lt;mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn</a>&gt;; 'NSN - =
Cyril<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; =
'Tellabs - Jonathan<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; Sadler';<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Vallinayakam =
Somasundaram<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF =
draft (support for<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; multi-<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; stage Vs Single =
Stage labels)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
&gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; While we are making updates, let us discuss =
support required in<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; link<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; advertisement for =
single/multi-stage label options:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Given that there is interest in both =
multi-stage label and single-<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; =
stage<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; with H-LSPs, we should consider inclusion of =
a FLAG to indicate<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; what<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; the link is =
capable of.&nbsp; This will address some of the issues =
we<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
have<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; discussed in the past relating to path =
computation involving NEs<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
with<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; different capabilities =
(inter-op).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; &gt; &gt; Rajan<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; CCAMP mailing =
list<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; <a =
href=3D"mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org">CCAMP@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; <a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/ccamp</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; =
_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; CCAMP mailing =
list<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>&gt; <a =
href=3D"mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org">CCAMP@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>&gt; <a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/ccamp</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></=
span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US>CCAMP mailing =
list<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US><a =
href=3D"mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org">CCAMP@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/ccamp</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></body=
></html>=

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From pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com  Thu Jun 30 03:12:58 2011
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From: "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>, CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 12:12:39 +0200
Thread-Topic: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Hello John,

it is not clear which is the meaning of "sub-layer" that you have in mind,
but if we consider ITU-T definitions,  from data plane point of view an ODU=
 containing another ODU does not define a sub-layer, it defines instead a l=
ayer.

ITU-T defines the possibility to protect independently all layers in the OT=
N network architecture as well as in SDH architecture.
As consequence the possibility to perform protection of all layers has to b=
e taken as a requirement for signaling and routing protocols.

Protecting or not intermediate layers is a decision in charge of operators =
and not of SDOs.

Multi-layer networking has been standardized by ITU-T several years ago,
has been applied in field to SDH networks and it has been adopted for OTN n=
etworks. Multi-layer networking is directly supported by H-LSPs, thus
solutions based on H-LSPs would have low impact on NMS because they are con=
sistent with current practice and NMS architectures.

Assigning multi-stage labels is just a way to perform signaling
in very special cases of multi-layer networks, but it imposes a way of work=
ing in which intermediate layers pops up when client
This way of working is very different from what is currently supported and =
thus implies  huge modifications.

Moreover to support the generic requirement stated above, a solution based =
only on H-LSPs has to be supported in any case, so there is no reason to im=
pose multi-stage label since day one.

A comment about: " The containing hierarchical LSP with multiple sub-layer =
LSPs, regardless of which of the two proposals being discussed for establis=
hing the sub-layer LSPs, has nothing whatever to do with layer management."

Signaling is an instrument to put in place LSPs that are managed by NMS as =
belonging to layers. So there is a precise relationship with respect to lay=
er management in the sense that signaling protocols are tools devoted to im=
plement what is needed for management plane and must not provide requiremen=
ts to management.

Said this, again, I have nothing in contrary to support both solutions beca=
use I understand very well that in some cases there can be processing advan=
tages in using multi-stage labels. I am also convinced, for what I said bef=
ore, that multi-stage label support MUST NOT be mandatory.

Pietro

-----Original Message-----
From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
Sent: mercoled=EC 29 giugno 2011 17.53
To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); CCAMP
Cc: Igor Bryskin; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)
Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

Comments inline.

Sent from my iPhone

> -----Original Message-----
> From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 12:42 AM
> To: CCAMP
> Cc: John E Drake; Igor Bryskin; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); GRANDI,
> PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
>
> Hello Igor,
>
> The discussion is all in deciding whether to consider the
> support of multi-stage label as optional or mandatory.
>
> Support of multi-stage labels have consequences that include:
> 1) the fact that it is not possible to protect intermediate layers
> either via protection or restoration. This restricts the application
> field of the concept in such a way that it can be considered an
> optimization applicable to specific cases.

JD:  As I have said before, for the new construct we are dealing with, viz,=
 a containing hierarchical LSP with one or more sub-layer LSPs between the =
same two endpoints, it is not possible to protect the individual sub-layer =
LSPs outside the context of the containing hierarchical LSP.

>
> 2) Heavy impacts on transport network management systems that are
> currently based on "per layer management" and should work in a very
> different way.

JD:  The construct defined above is new and management systems will have to=
 be modified to understand it.

> Last but not least, the OTN architecture allows explicitly the "per
> layer"
> management, that is the reference for transport networks. Every GMPLS
> implementation has to be consistent with this reference.

JD:  The containing hierarchical LSP with multiple sub-layer LSPs, regardle=
ss of which of the two proposals being discussed for establishing the sub-l=
ayer LSPs, has nothing whatever to do with layer management.

>
> In conclusion, the usage of the multi-stage label  should be considered
> as optional and the support should be clearly stated via an appropriate
> advertising.
>
> Unfortunately, contrary to  point 3), someone insists in forcing the
> usage and support of multi-stage labels as mandatory.
>
> The point in discussion is all here.
>
> Best Regards
> Pietro & Sergio
>
>
> Hi Pietro,
>
> You may not like John's tone, but emotions aside, what he keeps saying
> repeatedly in this discussion does make perfect sense to me.
> 1) The point of CP signaling is to convey information pertinent to
> network element provisioning in most efficient way. It does seem stupid
> to signal numerous one hop hierarchical LSPs (when it is sufficient a
> single end-to-end round of signaling to do the job), create and support
> numerous extra CP states, take care of all restart implications, etc.
> just to be consistent with RFC_XYZ written 10 years ago;
>
> 2) Besides, you can think of multi-stage label as identification of a
> new type of network resources controlled by GMPLS. Even the GMPLS god-
> fathers would agree that they never meant to limit GMPLS to control the
> resources described in early CCAMP RFCs.
> 3) Finally, no one ever said that you cannot orchestrate multi-stage
> provisioning through the hierarchy of LSPs if you choose to do so.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 10:43 AM
> To: John E Drake
> Cc: CCAMP
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
> Hello John,
>
> 1) You have forwarded to the CCamp mailing list a number of private
> mails without asking the permission to the involved people. This is
> impolite and unprofessional.
>
> 2) You are creating spam on the mailing list forwarding four threads
> that are each hundreds of lines long and very complicated to follow for
> people not involved in the discussion since the beginning. Moreover,
> this happened after a discussion from scratch was already started in
> the mailing list.
>
> 3) You moved from a technical discussion to arrogant and deliberate
> personal offenses not supported by any sound technical motivation as
> reported in your mails and snipped below:
>
> "This shows a complete lack of understanding of hierarchical LSP,
> multi-stage labels, and GMPLS in general.  It is so bad it is not even
> wrong."
>
> " It might be more precise to say I reviewed your slides and found
> them, shall we say, lacking."
>
> We hope that from now on the discussion can be continued from a purely
> technical point of view.
>
> Pietro, Sergio and Daniele
>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
> Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute. That's
> relativity.
> (A. Einstein)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of John E Drake
> Sent: marted=EC 28 giugno 2011 14.13
> To: CCAMP
> Subject: [CCAMP] FW: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John E Drake
> Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 3:56 PM
> To: 'Fatai Zhang'; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan
> Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -
> Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham; BELOTTI,
> SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli
> Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
> Fatai,
>
> Comments inline.
>
> Thanks,
>
> John
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Fatai Zhang [mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 9:45 AM
> > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); John E Drake
> > Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan
> > Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -
> > Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham;
> BELOTTI,
> > SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli
> > Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > Hi John,
> >
> > I guess that you did not review our slides carefully.
>
> JD:  I will let this pass.
>
> >
> > You just see the only advantage for the corner case (i.e., establish
> > multi-layers LSP concurrently), but you did not see the issues that
> we
> > described in the slides and the issues that Jonathan mentioned (eg.,
> > OAM/protection issues).
>
> JD:  I'm sorry that I didn't provide enough context.  I don't think the
> one-hop hierarchical LSP case, w/ or w/o multi-stage labels is either
> interesting or common and it was not the case to which I was addressing
> my comments.  Rather, I was describing two ways of establishing multi-
> hop multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.  As far as I can tell the issues
> Jonathan raised in this context are red herrings rather than blue
> whales.  Furthermore, regardless of which of the two approaches I
> described is used, the issues, if any, would be exactly the same.
>
> >
> > In addition, we have repeated many times that LSP hierarchy must be
> > used in many cases, even though we have multi-stage label approach.
> > E.g., an ODU0 connection request from A to E through B, C and D, but
> B,
> > C and  D (or one of them ) can not support ODU0 switching, the HO
> ODUj
> > (ODU1 or ODU2 or ODU3 or ODU4) LSP must be created between B and D
> > through LSP hierarchy. This example is very simple and there are lots
> > of transforms for this example to use LSP hierarchy.
>
> JD:  Please see above.  I completely agree with you and was simply
> pointing out that multi-stage labels can be used to improve wrt latency
> and control plane overhead, the establishment of ODUj LSPs within
> multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Fatai
> >
> > Thanks
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John E Drake" <jdrake@juniper.net>
> > To: "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)"
> > <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > Cc: "Daniele Ceccarelli" <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>; "Rajan
> Rao"
> > <rrao@infinera.com>; "Fatai Zhang" <zhangfatai@huawei.com>; "Khuzema
> > Pithewan" <kpithewan@infinera.com>; "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)"
> > <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>; "Ashok Kunjidhapatham"
> > <akunjidhapatham@infinera.com>; "Diego Caviglia"
> > <diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>; "Steve Balls"
> > <Steve.Balls@metaswitch.com>; "Ciena - Lyndon Ong" <LyOng@Ciena.com>;
> > <fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; "NSN - Cyril Margaria"
> <cyril.margaria@nsn.com>;
> > "Li Dan" <huawei.danli@huawei.com>; "Jonathan Hardwick"
> > <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>; "Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler"
> > <jonathan.sadler@tellabs.com>; "Vallinayakam Somasundaram"
> > <valli@juniper.net>
> > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 7:21 PM
> > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> >
> > Pietro,
> >
> > If we are talking about the establishment of LSPs using single-stage
> > muxing, I think the only thing necessary is a new label format, which
> I
> > believe is a bit map of tributary slots; i.e., LSP establishment
> using
> > single-stage muxing is done.
> >
> > We have never had a situation such as multi-stage muxing before so we
> > are breaking new ground and we have two choices, either use LSP
> > hierarchy to establish multiple single-stage sub-layer LSPs
> explicitly
> > and sequentially, or include the sub-layer information within the
> Path
> > message for the ODUj such that the sub-layers are established
> > implicitly and concurrently with the establishment of the ODUj.
> >
> > Either will work, but it seems to me that the latter is more
> efficient
> > wrt latency and control plane overhead.  The one thing I do not want
> to
> > do is to say that both are supported.  If we can agree that we will
> > only use one method to establish multi-stage LSPs, then when a node
> > advertises multi-stage support in routing, we know how signaling is
> to
> > be accomplished.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > John
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 1:31 AM
> > > To: John E Drake
> > > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;
> Steve
> > > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril
> Margaria;
> > > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam
> > > Somasundaram; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > John,
> > >
> > > It seems as though you consider on the same level something (H-LSP
> > > concept) already used in CP managing multi-layer with something
> that
> > > does not exist at all.
> > > Operators are used to managed their CP network together with NMS.
> > > Most of the NMS work per-layer. The utilization of a multi-stage
> > label
> > > would force NMS to work in another manner with heavy implementation
> > > consequences.
> > >
> > > We should also keep in mind that multi-stage label approach can
> only
> > be
> > > used in some cases (not for all the one-hop multi-stage muxing) and
> > it
> > > will bring some management issues. Please see the slides that Fatai
> > > sent a few days ago.
> > >
> > > For both these reasons the "optional" condition of multi-stage
> label
> > > concept is absolutely mandatory for us.
> > >
> > > Pietro, Sergio, Fatai & Daniele
> > >
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> > > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> > > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> > > Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> > > Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an
> hour.
> > > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.
> > That's
> > > relativity.
> > > (A. Einstein)
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > > Sent: sabato 18 giugno 2011 2.40
> > > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;
> Steve
> > > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril
> Margaria;
> > > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam
> > > Somasundaram
> > > Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Pietro,
> > >
> > > We can certainly say that a node that advertises multistage
> switching
> > > support in routing MUST support multistage signaling.
> > >
> > > As I said before, using mutiple RSVP exchanges between the same LSP
> > > endpoints to establish intermediate switching stages seems ill-
> > > considered and forcing everyone to support two ways of signaling
> > > multistage LSPs seems like a really Bad Idea.
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > On Jun 17, 2011, at 2:55 AM, "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO
> > > VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-
> > > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello John,
> > >
> > > I understand that you think that the new switching type in routing
> > > should also convey implicitly the information that a
> > > multi-stage label is supported.
> > >
> > > I do not agree with this statement.
> > > Implementations using H-LSPs plus single stage labels are possible
> > (and
> > > already standard) and the fact the a node supports
> > > the new switching type is not enough to clearly tell what is
> > supported.
> > >
> > > Pietro
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > > Sent: venerd=EC 17 giugno 2011 2.09
> > > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); Daniele Ceccarelli;
> > > Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO);
> > > Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena -
> Lyndon
> > > Ong'; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Pietro,
> > >
> > > Actually we are already covered.   Our advertisements use a
> different
> > > switching type, which is also carried in signaling.  This means
> that
> > we
> > > get to define the signaling used for this switching type, and I am
> > > proposing that we use multistage.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 6:52 AM
> > > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang;
> Khuzema
> > > Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego
> > > Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I  agree with Daniele' statement.
> > >
> > > in my mind this means that single stage label support is implicit
> and
> > > that
> > > multi-stage labels should not be used unless a machine explicitly
> > > declares the support.
> > >
> > > Pietro
> > >
> > >
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> > > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> > > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> > > Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> > > Mail: <mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > > pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-
> > > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an
> hour.
> > > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.
> > That's
> > > relativity.
> > > (A. Einstein)
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]
> > > Sent: gioved=EC 16 giugno 2011 15.48
> > > To: John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> BELOTTI,
> > > SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO
> > (PIETRO
> > > VITTORIO); Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Starting a new thread as we're now moving to signaling...
> > >
> > > Assuming we still have not decided whether we're going to support
> > > single stage only, multi stage only or both of them i believe that
> as
> > > per OSPF we need to consider backward compatibility.
> > >
> > > An implementation RFC4328 based (that we've explicitly been told
> not
> > to
> > > deprecate) is single stage based, so in case of multi stage only or
> > > multi-stage + single stage we should be able to cover backward
> > > compatibility issues somehow.
> > >
> > > BR
> > > Daniele
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > > Sent: gioved=EC 16 giugno 2011 8.53
> > > To: Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham
> > > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;
> > 'Steve
> > > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for
> multi-
> > > stage Vs Single Stage labels)
> > > Rajan,
> > >
> > > I didn't want to allow interoperability options.  I much preferred
> to
> > > say that we do signaling in one way only, using multistage labels.
> > > These are also needed for signaling within  hierarchical LSPs.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > From: Rajan Rao [mailto:rrao@infinera.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 10:46 PM
> > > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; John E Drake; Khuzema
> Pithewan;
> > > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham
> > > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;
> > 'Steve
> > > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for
> multi-
> > > stage Vs Single Stage labels)
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > While we are making updates, let us discuss support required in
> link
> > > advertisement for single/multi-stage label options:
> > >
> > > Given that there is interest in both multi-stage label and single-
> > stage
> > > with H-LSPs, we should consider inclusion of a FLAG to indicate
> what
> > > the link is capable of.  This will address some of the issues we
> have
> > > discussed in the past relating to path computation involving NEs
> with
> > > different capabilities (inter-op).
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Rajan
> _______________________________________________
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

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From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [OSPF] draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01
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Xihua,
	For at least now, the OSPF work should be done in the OSPF WG.  The
chairs of the various candidate WG are having some off-line discussions
on were the requirements/RSVP work belongs.  We should have an answer
for you by early next week.

Lou

PS Please don't cc ccamp-bounces@ietf.org on mail you send, it makes the
mail system think your mail is a bounce!

On 6/29/2011 9:44 PM, fu.xihua@zte.com.cn wrote:
> I have a question to chairs and the authors. Because there are more and
> more documents appearing, we should think about how to move forward
> these work.
> What's your opinion?  

From fu.xihua@zte.com.cn  Thu Jun 30 05:28:30 2011
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [OSPF] draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-01
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From kpithewan@infinera.com  Thu Jun 30 06:24:31 2011
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From: Khuzema Pithewan <kpithewan@infinera.com>
To: "Sadler, Jonathan B." <Jonathan.Sadler@tellabs.com>, "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>, 'CCAMP' <ccamp@ietf.org>
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Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 13:24:23 +0000
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status
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Hi Jonathan,

Pls see inline.

Thanks
Khuzema

From: Sadler, Jonathan B. [mailto:Jonathan.Sadler@tellabs.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 8:25 PM
To: Khuzema Pithewan; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); 'CCAMP'
Subject: RE: OTN signalling drafts status

Hello Khuzema,

I've looked at your interpretation of how the requirements you've stated be=
low are satisfied/not satisfied by the two drafts under consideration and w=
ould like to ask you about two of your conclusions:

Requirement

Draft-Zhang

Draft-Khuzema

R2

Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers

Supported without H-LSPs. Achieves scalability and better restoration perfo=
rmance.


You state that "better" scalability and restoration performance is achieved=
 in Draft-Khuzema - I interpret your statement this assuming that under the=
 H-LSP approach, any change of a service layer LSP requires a change to bot=
h the service LSP as well as the lower layer LSP.  Please validate my inter=
pretation.


KP: Better scalability comes from the fact that, we do not have to advertis=
e H-LSP as FAs , hence reducing number of TE-Links in the network. Better r=
estoration performance comes, as you correctly understood, we do not have t=
o create lower layer LSP, saving signaling time.


Please also validate my understanding of the solution proposed in draft-khu=
zema: it seems the solution proposed requires separate signaling for each o=
f the service LSPs to perform restoration.  In the case of an ODU3 full of =
ODU0s, this would be 32 LSPs with 32 separate signaling actions when restor=
ation is required.


Under the H-LSP solution in draft-zhang, the same scenario of an ODU3 full =
of ODU0s would require 33 LSPs (32 for the ODU0s and 1 for the ODU3). Howev=
er, explicitly signaling the ODU3 LSP makes it possible to have restoration=
 performed on the ODU3, benefiting all of the ODU0 LSPs with one signaling =
action.  I therefore would expect the H-LSP solution to have better restora=
tion performance.

KP: The Multi-stage label removes the necessity of single hop H-LSP. Multi-=
stage label construct works in conjunction with H-LSP for the cases when Lo=
wer layer ODU layer is required to be setup for multiple hops. That is requ=
irement# R6.

Hence I assume when you are comparing multi-stage and H-LSP, you are talkin=
g about single hop H-LSP. Since it is a single hop H-LSP, it has only one l=
ink between 2 interfaces and hence there is no way it can restore, if link =
has gone down. Now those 32 LSPs has to restore, and depending on the path =
they find, it may involve mulit-stage or H-LSPs.


Requirement

Draft-Zhang

Draft-Khuzema

R5

Not Supported

Supported


R5 states a requirement for egress interface control, and your conclusions =
above state it isn't possible to support this in draft-zhang and can be sup=
ported in draft-khuzema.

There are solutions that allow for egress control to be satisfied using dra=
ft-zhang (e.g. assigning ifIndexes to potential H-LSPs defining the interme=
diate ODUj - these can then be specified in an ERO).  This approach has the=
 advantage of working with un-bundled as well as bundled egress links, incl=
uding bundles made up of links using different lower layer speed/technologi=
es (e.g. a bundle of OTU3 and ODU4)

KP: draft-khuzema does it in single lsp setup (through signaling of course)=
 and hence avoid multiple manual steps to create those H-LSPs. Whatever can=
 be done through signaling can also be done manually. Draft-zhang relies on=
 manual steps, that's the reason of marking that requirement as Not support=
ed.


Can you explain how the solution specified in draft-khuzema can handle bund=
le links where different lower layer speeds are in use?

KP: In the multi-stage label construct, we are not talking about links, the=
 construct is to identify data plane layer and their time slots. Bundling o=
r no-bundling, doesn't have any impact.


Thanks,

Jonathan Sadler

From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of K=
huzema Pithewan
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 11:23 PM
To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); 'CCAMP'
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status

Thanks Pietro and Sergio for starting this off.

Hi CCampers,

We would like to provide more context to multi-stage label approach for bet=
ter understanding.  OTN is inherently a hierarchical network, and there are=
/will be cases where service ODU has to go through mandatory creation of mo=
re than one layer because of various technical/economic reasons. We are lis=
ting here requirements for supporting services over hierarchical OTN networ=
k.


1.      [R1] Support signaling mechanism to instantiate ODUj service layer =
on a ODUk link via single stage muxing.



A ODUj LSP could involve zero (j=3Dk) or one stage (j<k) multiplexing on a =
given ODUk link. Here both Control-plane and Data-plane entities are create=
d for the ODUj service layer. ODUk link could be a point-to-point OTUk link=
 or a H-LSP.



2.      [R2] Support signaling mechanism to instantiate one or more interme=
diate layers on a ODUk link in order to support the ODUj service layer.



A ODUj LSP could involve two or more stage multiplexing on a given ODUk lin=
k. These intermediate layers can be implicitly created as a part of ODUj se=
rvice LSP creation. In this case, both controlplane and dataplane entities =
will be created for the ODUj service layer. However, intermediate ODU layer=
(s) (implicitly created) will have dataplane representation only.



3.      [R3] Support signaling mechanism to instantiate ODUj service layer =
on a ODUk link where one or more intermediate ODU layers may be pre-existin=
g.



A ODUj LSP could involve two or more stage multiplexing on a given ODUk lin=
k. These intermediate layers may be pre-existing  as a result of another LS=
P creation on the same ODU hierarchy or explicitly configured through manag=
ement interface.



4.      [R4] Support signaling mechanism where ODUj service LSP creation ma=
y involve varying mux hierarchies on each hop



An end-to-end ODUj service LSP creation may involve zero or more stage ODU =
multiplexing on every hop in the path. Basically,the scenarios discussed in=
 R1 to R3 could be associated with any of the hops involved.



5.      [R5] Support signaling mechanism for egress control of OTN interfac=
es



An egress interface of a ODUj LSP could involve single or multiple stage mu=
ltiplexing. Egress Label sub-object defined in [RFC-4003] must be used to s=
ignal hierarchical multiplexing information pertaining to the egress interf=
ace of the LSP.



6.      [R6] Support signaling mechanism when ODUj service LSP creation req=
uires induced or manually created H-LSP.

Based on the above requirements, following is the comparison between two dr=
afts under discussion.


Requirement

Draft-Zhang

Draft-Khuzema

R1

Supported

Supported

R2

Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers

Supported without H-LSPs. Achieves scalability and better restoration perfo=
rmance.

R3

Supported using H-LSPs for each non-existing HO-ODU layers

Supported without H-LSPs

R4

Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers

Supported without H-LSPs

R5

Not Supported

Supported

R6

Supported using H-LSP

Supported using H-LSP



Would like to hear opinions.

Authors draft-khuzema


From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of G=
RANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 6:53 PM
To: 'CCAMP'
Subject: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status

Hello CCampers,

Currently two drafts exist for the signaling of LSPs in OTN technology.
The two drafts, namely draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709 and
draft-khuzema-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709, contain a lot of similarities
but are fundamentally different with respect to the support of multi-stage =
technology.

Draft-zhang proposes to deal with multi-stage technology via the usage
of H-LSPs as already defined in RFC6107. With this approach all LSPs
belonging to intermediate layers of a hierarchy are signaled as separate H-=
LSPs.
Monitoring, protection and restoration functionalities are applicable indep=
endently to each LSP.

Draft-khuzema proposes to introduce a new multi-stage label concept so that
a single construct contains labels associated to more then one hierarchical=
 level.
This implies that all level in the OTN  hierarchy with the exclusion of ser=
vice levels
are not visible as single LSPs.
Each layer cannot be independently monitored.
Only the service layer (the layer with the finest granularity) can be prote=
cted or restored.

Advantages and disadvantages of both approaches can be summarized in short,=
 telling that
the H-LSP approach is able to work in any situation while the multi-stage l=
abel approach is suitable
on single hops or similar situations (reached signaling before an H-LSP) bu=
t, when used,
optimizes processing.

As such we perceive the Draft-khuzema approach as an optimization that coul=
d be supported in an optional way.

Before going on with merging of the two drafts we would like to hear opinio=
ns from CCampers.

Pietro & Sergio

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Pietro Vittorio Grandi
Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
Tel: +39 039 686 4930
Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute. That's rel=
ativity.
(A. Einstein)



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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#984806">Hi Jonathan,<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#984806"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#984806">Pls see inline.<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#984806"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#984806">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#984806">Khuzema<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Sadler, =
Jonathan B. [mailto:Jonathan.Sadler@tellabs.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 29, 2011 8:25 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Khuzema Pithewan; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); 'CC=
AMP'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: OTN signalling drafts status<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hello Khuzema,<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I&#8217;ve looked at your=
 interpretation of how the requirements you&#8217;ve stated below are satis=
fied/not satisfied by the two drafts under consideration and would like
 to ask you about two of your conclusions:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<table class=3D"MsoNormalTable" border=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=
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ext 1.0pt;background:#C4BC96;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Requirement<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border:solid window=
text 1.0pt;border-left:none;background:#C4BC96;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt"=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Draft-Zhang<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border:solid windowte=
xt 1.0pt;border-left:none;background:#C4BC96;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Draft-Khuzema<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">R2<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windo=
wtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border-top:none;borde=
r-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported without H-LSPs. Achieves scalability and bette=
r restoration performance.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">You state that &#8220;bet=
ter&#8221; scalability and restoration performance is achieved in Draft-Khu=
zema &#8211; I interpret your statement this assuming that under the H-LSP
 approach, any change of a service layer LSP requires a change to both the =
service LSP as well as the lower layer LSP.&nbsp; Please validate my interp=
retation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#984806"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#984806">KP: Better scalability co=
mes from the fact that, we do not have to advertise H-LSP as FAs , hence re=
ducing number of TE-Links in the network. Better restoration
 performance comes, as you correctly understood, we do not have to create l=
ower layer LSP, saving signaling time.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Please also validate my u=
nderstanding of the solution proposed in draft-khuzema: it seems the soluti=
on proposed requires separate signaling for each of the
 service LSPs to perform restoration.&nbsp; In the case of an ODU3 full of =
ODU0s, this would be 32 LSPs with 32 separate signaling actions when restor=
ation is required.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Under the H-LSP solution =
in draft-zhang, the same scenario of an ODU3 full of ODU0s would require 33=
 LSPs (32 for the ODU0s and 1 for the ODU3). However, explicitly
 signaling the ODU3 LSP makes it possible to have restoration performed on =
the ODU3, benefiting all of the ODU0 LSPs with one signaling action.&nbsp; =
I therefore would expect the H-LSP solution to have better restoration perf=
ormance.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#984806">KP: The Multi-stage label=
 removes the necessity of single hop H-LSP. Multi-stage label construct wor=
ks in conjunction with H-LSP for the cases when Lower layer
 ODU layer is required to be setup for multiple hops. That is requirement# =
R6. <o:p>
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#984806">Hence I assume when you a=
re comparing multi-stage and H-LSP, you are talking about single hop H-LSP.=
 Since it is a single hop H-LSP, it has only one link between
 2 interfaces and hence there is no way it can restore, if link has gone do=
wn. Now those 32 LSPs has to restore, and depending on the path they find, =
it may involve mulit-stage or H-LSPs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<table class=3D"MsoNormalTable" border=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=
=3D"0" width=3D"638" style=3D"width:6.65in;border-collapse:collapse">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;background:#C4BC96;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Requirement<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border:solid window=
text 1.0pt;border-left:none;background:#C4BC96;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt"=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Draft-Zhang<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border:solid windowte=
xt 1.0pt;border-left:none;background:#C4BC96;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Draft-Khuzema<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">R5<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windo=
wtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Not Supported<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border-top:none;borde=
r-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">R5 states a requirement f=
or egress interface control, and your conclusions above state it isn&#8217;=
t possible to support this in draft-zhang and can be supported
 in draft-khuzema.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">There are solutions that =
allow for egress control to be satisfied using draft-zhang (e.g. assigning =
ifIndexes to potential H-LSPs defining the intermediate
 ODUj &#8211; these can then be specified in an ERO).&nbsp; This approach h=
as the advantage of working with un-bundled as well as bundled egress links=
, including bundles made up of links using different lower layer speed/tech=
nologies (e.g. a bundle of OTU3 and ODU4)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#984806">KP: draft-khuzema does it=
 in single lsp setup (through signaling of course) and hence avoid multiple=
 manual steps to create those H-LSPs. Whatever can be done
 through signaling can also be done manually. Draft-zhang relies on manual =
steps, that&#8217;s the reason of marking that requirement as Not supported=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Can you explain how the s=
olution specified in draft-khuzema can handle bundle links where different =
lower layer speeds are in use?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#984806">KP: In the multi-stage la=
bel construct, we are not talking about links, the construct is to identify=
 data plane layer and their time slots. Bundling or no-bundling,
 doesn&#8217;t have any impact.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Jonathan Sadler<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> ccamp-bo=
unces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Khuzema Pithewan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 27, 2011 11:23 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); 'CCAMP'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Thanks Pietro and Sergio for starting this off.<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Hi CCampers,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">We would like to provide more context to multi-stage lab=
el approach for better understanding.&nbsp; OTN is inherently a hierarchica=
l network, and there are/will be cases where service ODU has
 to go through mandatory creation of more than one layer because of various=
 technical/economic reasons. We are listing here requirements for supportin=
g services over hierarchical OTN network.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:11=
5%"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times=
 New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:=
115%;background:silver;mso-highlight:silver">[R1]</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%"> Support signaling mechanism to instantiate =
ODUj service layer on a ODUk link via
 single stage muxing. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%">A ODUj LSP could involve zero (j=3Dk) or one stage (j&lt;k) multiplexi=
ng on a given ODUk link. Here both Control-plane and Data-plane entities ar=
e created for the ODUj service layer. ODUk
 link could be a point-to-point OTUk link or a H-LSP.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:11=
5%"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times=
 New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:=
115%;background:silver;mso-highlight:silver">[R2]</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%"> Support signaling mechanism to instantiate =
one or more intermediate layers on a
 ODUk link in order to support the ODUj service layer. <o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%">A ODUj LSP could involve two or more stage multiplexing on a given ODU=
k link. These intermediate layers can be implicitly created as a part of OD=
Uj service LSP creation. In this case,
 both controlplane and dataplane entities will be created for the ODUj serv=
ice layer. However, intermediate ODU layer(s) (implicitly created) will hav=
e dataplane representation only.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:11=
5%"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">3.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times=
 New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:=
115%;background:silver;mso-highlight:silver">[R3]</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%"> Support signaling mechanism to instantiate =
ODUj service layer on a ODUk link where
 one or more intermediate ODU layers may be pre-existing. <o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%">A ODUj LSP could involve two or more stage multiplexing on a given ODU=
k link. These intermediate layers may be pre-existing&nbsp; as a result of =
another LSP creation on the same ODU hierarchy
 or explicitly configured through management interface. <o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:11=
5%"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">4.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times=
 New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:=
115%;background:silver;mso-highlight:silver">[R4]</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%"> Support signaling mechanism where ODUj serv=
ice LSP creation may involve varying
 mux hierarchies on each hop <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%">An end-to-end ODUj service LSP creation may involve zero or more stage=
 ODU multiplexing on every hop in the path. Basically,the scenarios discuss=
ed in R1 to R3 could be associated with
 any of the hops involved.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:11=
5%"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">5.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times=
 New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:=
115%;background:silver;mso-highlight:silver">[R5]</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%"> Support signaling mechanism for egress cont=
rol of OTN interfaces
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%">An egress interface of a ODUj LSP could involve single or multiple sta=
ge multiplexing. Egress Label sub-object defined in [RFC-4003] must be used=
 to signal hierarchical multiplexing
 information pertaining to the egress interface of the LSP.&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:11=
5%"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">6.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times=
 New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:=
115%;background:silver;mso-highlight:silver">[R6]</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%"> Support signaling mechanism when ODUj servi=
ce LSP creation requires induced or
 manually created H-LSP.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Based on the above requirements, following is the compar=
ison between two drafts under discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<table class=3D"MsoNormalTable" border=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=
=3D"0" width=3D"638" style=3D"width:6.65in;border-collapse:collapse">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;background:#C4BC96;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Requirement<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border:solid window=
text 1.0pt;border-left:none;background:#C4BC96;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt"=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Draft-Zhang<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border:solid windowte=
xt 1.0pt;border-left:none;background:#C4BC96;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Draft-Khuzema<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">R1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windo=
wtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border-top:none;borde=
r-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">R2<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windo=
wtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border-top:none;borde=
r-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported without H-LSPs. Achieves scalability and bette=
r restoration performance.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">R3<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windo=
wtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported using H-LSPs for each non-existing HO-ODU laye=
rs
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border-top:none;borde=
r-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported without H-LSPs<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">R4<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windo=
wtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border-top:none;borde=
r-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported without H-LSPs<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">R5<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windo=
wtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Not Supported<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border-top:none;borde=
r-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">R6<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windo=
wtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported using H-LSP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border-top:none;borde=
r-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported using H-LSP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Would like to hear opinions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Authors draft-khuzema<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> ccamp-bo=
unces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 27, 2011 6:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'CCAMP'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Hello CCampers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Currently two drafts exist for the signa=
ling of LSPs in OTN technology.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">The two drafts, namely draft-zhang-ccamp=
-gmpls-evolving-g709 and
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">draft-khuzema-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709=
, contain a lot of similarities<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">but are fundamentally different with res=
pect to the support of multi-stage technology.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Draft-zhang proposes to deal with multi-=
stage technology via the usage<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">of H-LSPs as already defined in RFC6107.=
 With this approach all LSPs<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">belonging to intermediate layers of a hi=
erarchy are signaled as separate H-LSPs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Monitoring, protection and restoration f=
unctionalities are applicable independently to each LSP.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Draft-khuzema proposes to introduce a ne=
w multi-stage label concept so that<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">a single construct contains labels assoc=
iated to more then one hierarchical level.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">This implies that all level in the OTN&n=
bsp; hierarchy with the exclusion of service levels<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">are not visible as single LSPs.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Each layer cannot be independently monit=
ored.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Only the service layer (the layer with t=
he finest granularity) can be protected or restored.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Advantages and disadvantages of both app=
roaches can be summarized in short, telling that<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">the H-LSP approach is able to work in an=
y situation while the multi-stage label approach is suitable
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">on single hops or similar situations (re=
ached signaling before an H-LSP) but, when used,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">optimizes processing.<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">As such we perceive the Draft-khuzema ap=
proach as an optimization that could be supported in an optional way.<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Before going on with merging of the two =
drafts we would like to hear opinions from CCampers.&nbsp; &nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Pietro &amp; Sergio<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Pietro Vittorio Grandi</span><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"=
><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution</s=
pan><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sa=
ns-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)</span><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Tel: &#43;39 039 686 4930</span><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot=
;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
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nt.com</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;=
,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute=
, and it seems like an hour.</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and i=
t seems like a&nbsp; minute. That's relativity.</span><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">(A. Einstein)</span><span style=3D"font-s=
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p></span></p>
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From kpithewan@infinera.com  Thu Jun 30 06:44:52 2011
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From: Khuzema Pithewan <kpithewan@infinera.com>
To: Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>, John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>, "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO	VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
Thread-Topic: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Snipped....


1)  Multi-stage labels apply equally well to multi-hop hierarchical LSPs. (=
The is the point some people do not seem to understand.)

IB>> Sorry to admit that I am one of these people. I disagree with you on t=
his. For one thing, I do not like the idea of induced multi-hop H_LSPs. H_L=
SPs IMO should be pre-planned and provisioned in different time frame than =
connections they carry. Besides, multi-hop H-LSPs are links incongruent wit=
h links supported by OTUs, they will surely benefit from their own OAM. If =
I understand Infinera folks correctly, the idea of multi-stage provisioning=
 is to avoid single-hop H-LSPs, and I agree with them.



KP:: This is true that multi-stage replaces only single hop H-LSPs and not =
multi-hop H-LSPs. Having said that, the multi-stage label can be applied on=
 top of H-LSP treating the already setup H-LSP as just another link. For ex=
ample, if on an interface, mux hierarchy is ODU4-ODU3-ODU2-ODU1 and ODU3 ls=
p needs to be setup as H-LSP going through multiple hops, the ODU1 lsp can =
be setup using multi-stage construct using ODU3 H-LSP as link, if other end=
 of the H-LSP also supports extraction and switching of ODU2-ODU1.

Thanks
Khuzema

-----Original Message-----
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of I=
gor Bryskin
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 6:48 PM
To: John E Drake; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
Cc: CCAMP
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

John,

Please, see my comments in-line, we do have some disagreements.=20
Igor

-----Original Message-----
From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]=20
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 6:12 PM
To: Igor Bryskin; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
Cc: CCAMP
Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

Igor,

I have a few clarifications.

1)  Multi-stage labels apply equally well to multi-hop hierarchical LSPs. (=
The is the point some people do not seem to understand.)

IB>> Sorry to admit that I am one of these people. I disagree with you on t=
his. For one thing, I do not like the idea of induced multi-hop H_LSPs. H_L=
SPs IMO should be pre-planned and provisioned in different time frame than =
connections they carry. Besides, multi-hop H-LSPs are links incongruent wit=
h links supported by OTUs, they will surely benefit from their own OAM. If =
I understand Infinera folks correctly, the idea of multi-stage provisioning=
 is to avoid single-hop H-LSPs, and I agree with them.=20

2)  It is incorrect to say that LSP hierarchy, as is, just works for the es=
tablishment of a hierarchical LSP that supports multi-stage switching.  Thi=
s involves a nested set of hierarchical LSPs, the containing hierarchical L=
SP and the set of sub-layer LSPs which provide context for intermediate sta=
ge labels, between the same two endpoints.  This is a new construct and the=
re are almost certainly details to be worked out.

IB>> But this could be viewed as a build-up on top of the existing machiner=
y. At any rate, as I said, I don't like the idea of induced H-LSPs in princ=
iple, however, if the H-LSPs are pre-configured, I don't see why the existi=
ng LSP hierarchy won't work as it is.

3)  I don't think we should standardize both approaches.  I would prefer th=
at the working group pick one to standardize.

IB>> I don't see a reason why not to do both,=20

Igor


Sent from my iPhone


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 9:24 AM
> To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); John E Drake
> Cc: CCAMP
> Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
> Hi Pietro,
>
> You may not like John's tone, but emotions aside, what he keeps saying
> repeatedly in this discussion does make perfect sense to me.
> 1) The point of CP signaling is to convey information pertinent to
> network element provisioning in most efficient way. It does seem stupid
> to signal numerous one hop hierarchical LSPs (when it is sufficient a
> single end-to-end round of signaling to do the job), create and support
> numerous extra CP states, take care of all restart implications, etc.
> just to be consistent with RFC_XYZ written 10 years ago;
> 2) Besides, you can think of multi-stage label as identification of a
> new type of network resources controlled by GMPLS. Even the GMPLS god-
> fathers would agree that they never meant to limit GMPLS to control the
> resources described in early CCAMP RFCs.
> 3) Finally, no one ever said that you cannot orchestrate multi-stage
> provisioning through the hierarchy of LSPs if you choose to do so.
>
> Cheers,
> Igor
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 10:43 AM
> To: John E Drake
> Cc: CCAMP
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
> Hello John,
>
> 1) You have forwarded to the CCamp mailing list a number of private
> mails without asking the permission to the involved people. This is
> impolite and unprofessional.
>
> 2) You are creating spam on the mailing list forwarding four threads
> that are each hundreds of lines long and very complicated to follow for
> people not involved in the discussion since the beginning. Moreover,
> this happened after a discussion from scratch was already started in
> the mailing list.
>
> 3) You moved from a technical discussion to arrogant and deliberate
> personal offenses not supported by any sound technical motivation as
> reported in your mails and snipped below:
>
> "This shows a complete lack of understanding of hierarchical LSP,
> multi-stage labels, and GMPLS in general.  It is so bad it is not even
> wrong."
>
> " It might be more precise to say I reviewed your slides and found
> them, shall we say, lacking."
>
> We hope that from now on the discussion can be continued from a purely
> technical point of view.
>
> Pietro, Sergio and Daniele
>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
> Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute. That's
> relativity.
> (A. Einstein)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of John E Drake
> Sent: marted=EC 28 giugno 2011 14.13
> To: CCAMP
> Subject: [CCAMP] FW: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John E Drake
> Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 3:56 PM
> To: 'Fatai Zhang'; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan
> Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -
> Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham; BELOTTI,
> SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli
> Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
> Fatai,
>
> Comments inline.
>
> Thanks,
>
> John
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Fatai Zhang [mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 9:45 AM
> > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); John E Drake
> > Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan
> > Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -
> > Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham;
> BELOTTI,
> > SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli
> > Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > Hi John,
> >
> > I guess that you did not review our slides carefully.
>
> JD:  I will let this pass.
>
> >
> > You just see the only advantage for the corner case (i.e., establish
> > multi-layers LSP concurrently), but you did not see the issues that
> we
> > described in the slides and the issues that Jonathan mentioned (eg.,
> > OAM/protection issues).
>
> JD:  I'm sorry that I didn't provide enough context.  I don't think the
> one-hop hierarchical LSP case, w/ or w/o multi-stage labels is either
> interesting or common and it was not the case to which I was addressing
> my comments.  Rather, I was describing two ways of establishing multi-
> hop multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.  As far as I can tell the issues
> Jonathan raised in this context are red herrings rather than blue
> whales.  Furthermore, regardless of which of the two approaches I
> described is used, the issues, if any, would be exactly the same.
>
> >
> > In addition, we have repeated many times that LSP hierarchy must be
> > used in many cases, even though we have multi-stage label approach.
> > E.g., an ODU0 connection request from A to E through B, C and D, but
> B,
> > C and  D (or one of them ) can not support ODU0 switching, the HO
> ODUj
> > (ODU1 or ODU2 or ODU3 or ODU4) LSP must be created between B and D
> > through LSP hierarchy. This example is very simple and there are lots
> > of transforms for this example to use LSP hierarchy.
>
> JD:  Please see above.  I completely agree with you and was simply
> pointing out that multi-stage labels can be used to improve wrt latency
> and control plane overhead, the establishment of ODUj LSPs within
> multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Fatai
> >
> > Thanks
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John E Drake" <jdrake@juniper.net>
> > To: "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)"
> > <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > Cc: "Daniele Ceccarelli" <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>; "Rajan
> Rao"
> > <rrao@infinera.com>; "Fatai Zhang" <zhangfatai@huawei.com>; "Khuzema
> > Pithewan" <kpithewan@infinera.com>; "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)"
> > <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>; "Ashok Kunjidhapatham"
> > <akunjidhapatham@infinera.com>; "Diego Caviglia"
> > <diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>; "Steve Balls"
> > <Steve.Balls@metaswitch.com>; "Ciena - Lyndon Ong" <LyOng@Ciena.com>;
> > <fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; "NSN - Cyril Margaria"
> <cyril.margaria@nsn.com>;
> > "Li Dan" <huawei.danli@huawei.com>; "Jonathan Hardwick"
> > <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>; "Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler"
> > <jonathan.sadler@tellabs.com>; "Vallinayakam Somasundaram"
> > <valli@juniper.net>
> > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 7:21 PM
> > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> >
> > Pietro,
> >
> > If we are talking about the establishment of LSPs using single-stage
> > muxing, I think the only thing necessary is a new label format, which
> I
> > believe is a bit map of tributary slots; i.e., LSP establishment
> using
> > single-stage muxing is done.
> >
> > We have never had a situation such as multi-stage muxing before so we
> > are breaking new ground and we have two choices, either use LSP
> > hierarchy to establish multiple single-stage sub-layer LSPs
> explicitly
> > and sequentially, or include the sub-layer information within the
> Path
> > message for the ODUj such that the sub-layers are established
> > implicitly and concurrently with the establishment of the ODUj.
> >
> > Either will work, but it seems to me that the latter is more
> efficient
> > wrt latency and control plane overhead.  The one thing I do not want
> to
> > do is to say that both are supported.  If we can agree that we will
> > only use one method to establish multi-stage LSPs, then when a node
> > advertises multi-stage support in routing, we know how signaling is
> to
> > be accomplished.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > John
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 1:31 AM
> > > To: John E Drake
> > > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;
> Steve
> > > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril
> Margaria;
> > > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam
> > > Somasundaram; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > John,
> > >
> > > It seems as though you consider on the same level something (H-LSP
> > > concept) already used in CP managing multi-layer with something
> that
> > > does not exist at all.
> > > Operators are used to managed their CP network together with NMS.
> > > Most of the NMS work per-layer. The utilization of a multi-stage
> > label
> > > would force NMS to work in another manner with heavy implementation
> > > consequences.
> > >
> > > We should also keep in mind that multi-stage label approach can
> only
> > be
> > > used in some cases (not for all the one-hop multi-stage muxing) and
> > it
> > > will bring some management issues. Please see the slides that Fatai
> > > sent a few days ago.
> > >
> > > For both these reasons the "optional" condition of multi-stage
> label
> > > concept is absolutely mandatory for us.
> > >
> > > Pietro, Sergio, Fatai & Daniele
> > >
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> > > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> > > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> > > Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> > > Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an
> hour.
> > > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.
> > That's
> > > relativity.
> > > (A. Einstein)
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > > Sent: sabato 18 giugno 2011 2.40
> > > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;
> Steve
> > > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril
> Margaria;
> > > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam
> > > Somasundaram
> > > Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Pietro,
> > >
> > > We can certainly say that a node that advertises multistage
> switching
> > > support in routing MUST support multistage signaling.
> > >
> > > As I said before, using mutiple RSVP exchanges between the same LSP
> > > endpoints to establish intermediate switching stages seems ill-
> > > considered and forcing everyone to support two ways of signaling
> > > multistage LSPs seems like a really Bad Idea.
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > On Jun 17, 2011, at 2:55 AM, "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO
> > > VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-
> > > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello John,
> > >
> > > I understand that you think that the new switching type in routing
> > > should also convey implicitly the information that a
> > > multi-stage label is supported.
> > >
> > > I do not agree with this statement.
> > > Implementations using H-LSPs plus single stage labels are possible
> > (and
> > > already standard) and the fact the a node supports
> > > the new switching type is not enough to clearly tell what is
> > supported.
> > >
> > > Pietro
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > > Sent: venerd=EC 17 giugno 2011 2.09
> > > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); Daniele Ceccarelli;
> > > Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO);
> > > Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena -
> Lyndon
> > > Ong'; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Pietro,
> > >
> > > Actually we are already covered.   Our advertisements use a
> different
> > > switching type, which is also carried in signaling.  This means
> that
> > we
> > > get to define the signaling used for this switching type, and I am
> > > proposing that we use multistage.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 6:52 AM
> > > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang;
> Khuzema
> > > Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego
> > > Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I  agree with Daniele' statement.
> > >
> > > in my mind this means that single stage label support is implicit
> and
> > > that
> > > multi-stage labels should not be used unless a machine explicitly
> > > declares the support.
> > >
> > > Pietro
> > >
> > >
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> > > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> > > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> > > Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> > > Mail: <mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > > pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-
> > > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an
> hour.
> > > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.
> > That's
> > > relativity.
> > > (A. Einstein)
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]
> > > Sent: gioved=EC 16 giugno 2011 15.48
> > > To: John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> BELOTTI,
> > > SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO
> > (PIETRO
> > > VITTORIO); Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Starting a new thread as we're now moving to signaling...
> > >
> > > Assuming we still have not decided whether we're going to support
> > > single stage only, multi stage only or both of them i believe that
> as
> > > per OSPF we need to consider backward compatibility.
> > >
> > > An implementation RFC4328 based (that we've explicitly been told
> not
> > to
> > > deprecate) is single stage based, so in case of multi stage only or
> > > multi-stage + single stage we should be able to cover backward
> > > compatibility issues somehow.
> > >
> > > BR
> > > Daniele
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > > Sent: gioved=EC 16 giugno 2011 8.53
> > > To: Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham
> > > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;
> > 'Steve
> > > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for
> multi-
> > > stage Vs Single Stage labels)
> > > Rajan,
> > >
> > > I didn't want to allow interoperability options.  I much preferred
> to
> > > say that we do signaling in one way only, using multistage labels.
> > > These are also needed for signaling within  hierarchical LSPs.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > From: Rajan Rao [mailto:rrao@infinera.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 10:46 PM
> > > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; John E Drake; Khuzema
> Pithewan;
> > > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham
> > > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;
> > 'Steve
> > > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for
> multi-
> > > stage Vs Single Stage labels)
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > While we are making updates, let us discuss support required in
> link
> > > advertisement for single/multi-stage label options:
> > >
> > > Given that there is interest in both multi-stage label and single-
> > stage
> > > with H-LSPs, we should consider inclusion of a FLAG to indicate
> what
> > > the link is capable of.  This will address some of the issues we
> have
> > > discussed in the past relating to path computation involving NEs
> with
> > > different capabilities (inter-op).
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Rajan
> _______________________________________________
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> _______________________________________________
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From Jonathan.Sadler@tellabs.com  Thu Jun 30 07:25:51 2011
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From: "Sadler, Jonathan B." <Jonathan.Sadler@tellabs.com>
To: Khuzema Pithewan <kpithewan@infinera.com>, "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>, 'CCAMP' <ccamp@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 09:25:32 -0500
Thread-Topic: OTN signalling drafts status
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status
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Hi Khuzema.

See inline for my comments, marked with [JS].

Jonathan Sadler

-->8 SNIP 8<--

I've looked at your interpretation of how the requirements you've stated be=
low are satisfied/not satisfied by the two drafts under consideration and w=
ould like to ask you about two of your conclusions:

Requirement

Draft-Zhang

Draft-Khuzema

R2

Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers

Supported without H-LSPs. Achieves scalability and better restoration perfo=
rmance.


You state that "better" scalability and restoration performance is achieved=
 in Draft-Khuzema - I interpret your statement this assuming that under the=
 H-LSP approach, any change of a service layer LSP requires a change to bot=
h the service LSP as well as the lower layer LSP.  Please validate my inter=
pretation.

KP: Better scalability comes from the fact that, we do not have to advertis=
e H-LSP as FAs , hence reducing number of TE-Links in the network. Better r=
estoration performance comes, as you correctly understood, we do not have t=
o create lower layer LSP, saving signaling time.

[JS] I understand there is a reduction of routing information that comes fr=
om not advertising the H-LSPs, though your assertion this helps scalability=
 seems to be assuming a specific routing approach (e.g. distributed path co=
mputation dependent on a replicated distributed topology database).  Other =
routing approaches (e.g. PCE) are not adversely affected.

[JS] Independent of this, the choice to not advertise the fact that a lower=
 layer connection was established to support higher layer connections leads=
 to stranded capacity.  This has significant operational (and cost) impact =
to network operators.  Under the H-LSP approach, the operator has the choic=
e to advertise or not for each H-LSP, thereby allowing for the operator to =
better trade-off scalability concerns and resource utilization.

Please also validate my understanding of the solution proposed in draft-khu=
zema: it seems the solution proposed requires separate signaling for each o=
f the service LSPs to perform restoration.  In the case of an ODU3 full of =
ODU0s, this would be 32 LSPs with 32 separate signaling actions when restor=
ation is required.

Under the H-LSP solution in draft-zhang, the same scenario of an ODU3 full =
of ODU0s would require 33 LSPs (32 for the ODU0s and 1 for the ODU3). Howev=
er, explicitly signaling the ODU3 LSP makes it possible to have restoration=
 performed on the ODU3, benefiting all of the ODU0 LSPs with one signaling =
action.  I therefore would expect the H-LSP solution to have better restora=
tion performance.

KP: The Multi-stage label removes the necessity of single hop H-LSP. Multi-=
stage label construct works in conjunction with H-LSP for the cases when Lo=
wer layer ODU layer is required to be setup for multiple hops. That is requ=
irement# R6.

Hence I assume when you are comparing multi-stage and H-LSP, you are talkin=
g about single hop H-LSP. Since it is a single hop H-LSP, it has only one l=
ink between 2 interfaces and hence there is no way it can restore, if link =
has gone down. Now those 32 LSPs has to restore, and depending on the path =
they find, it may involve mulit-stage or H-LSPs.

[JS] Actually, I was considering the single hop case and signaling restorat=
ion of traffic to a different link between two neighboring nodes (the link =
could be within a bundle or otherwise).  Restoration certainly can be done =
for the lower layer LSP as long as it goes between the same to fabrics bein=
g connected by the original link.  And the upper layer LSPs don't need to m=
ove as they all benefit from the restoration of the lower layer LSP.

[JS] Your discussion above though points out another benefit of the H-LSP a=
pproach.  When restoration of a single-hop LSP requires going to a multi-ho=
p path, the H-LSP can again facilitate the reroute action with a single sig=
naling exchange between the nodes involved in the lower layer LSP.  The use=
 of multi-stage labels requires separate signaling exchanges between the sa=
me nodes, which can be a significantly higher number of messages.


Requirement

Draft-Zhang

Draft-Khuzema

R5

Not Supported

Supported


R5 states a requirement for egress interface control, and your conclusions =
above state it isn't possible to support this in draft-zhang and can be sup=
ported in draft-khuzema.

There are solutions that allow for egress control to be satisfied using dra=
ft-zhang (e.g. assigning ifIndexes to potential H-LSPs defining the interme=
diate ODUj - these can then be specified in an ERO).  This approach has the=
 advantage of working with un-bundled as well as bundled egress links, incl=
uding bundles made up of links using different lower layer speed/technologi=
es (e.g. a bundle of OTU3 and ODU4)

KP: draft-khuzema does it in single lsp setup (through signaling of course)=
 and hence avoid multiple manual steps to create those H-LSPs. Whatever can=
 be done through signaling can also be done manually. Draft-zhang relies on=
 manual steps, that's the reason of marking that requirement as Not support=
ed.

[JS] I'm not certain I understand the manual steps you are citing.  The onl=
y thing required is the assignment of ifIndexes to the potential H-LSPs and=
 the establishment of the lower layer connections .  This can be done autom=
atically by equipment.

Can you explain how the solution specified in draft-khuzema can handle bund=
le links where different lower layer speeds are in use?

KP: In the multi-stage label construct, we are not talking about links, the=
 construct is to identify data plane layer and their time slots. Bundling o=
r no-bundling, doesn't have any impact.

[JS]  I disagree.  Egress label control requires the egress label format to=
 be known.  If the egress link has multiple links in a bundle of different =
type (e.g. a bundle of OTU3 and OTU4), under the multi-stage label proposal=
, the label format ends up changing if a resource is being specified on the=
 OTU3 link vs the OTU4 link.  Its inherent due to the different "time slot"=
 (sic) structure of the egress link.

Thanks,

Jonathan Sadler

From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of K=
huzema Pithewan
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 11:23 PM
To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); 'CCAMP'
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status

Thanks Pietro and Sergio for starting this off.

Hi CCampers,

We would like to provide more context to multi-stage label approach for bet=
ter understanding.  OTN is inherently a hierarchical network, and there are=
/will be cases where service ODU has to go through mandatory creation of mo=
re than one layer because of various technical/economic reasons. We are lis=
ting here requirements for supporting services over hierarchical OTN networ=
k.


1.      [R1] Support signaling mechanism to instantiate ODUj service layer =
on a ODUk link via single stage muxing.



A ODUj LSP could involve zero (j=3Dk) or one stage (j<k) multiplexing on a =
given ODUk link. Here both Control-plane and Data-plane entities are create=
d for the ODUj service layer. ODUk link could be a point-to-point OTUk link=
 or a H-LSP.



2.      [R2] Support signaling mechanism to instantiate one or more interme=
diate layers on a ODUk link in order to support the ODUj service layer.



A ODUj LSP could involve two or more stage multiplexing on a given ODUk lin=
k. These intermediate layers can be implicitly created as a part of ODUj se=
rvice LSP creation. In this case, both controlplane and dataplane entities =
will be created for the ODUj service layer. However, intermediate ODU layer=
(s) (implicitly created) will have dataplane representation only.



3.      [R3] Support signaling mechanism to instantiate ODUj service layer =
on a ODUk link where one or more intermediate ODU layers may be pre-existin=
g.



A ODUj LSP could involve two or more stage multiplexing on a given ODUk lin=
k. These intermediate layers may be pre-existing  as a result of another LS=
P creation on the same ODU hierarchy or explicitly configured through manag=
ement interface.



4.      [R4] Support signaling mechanism where ODUj service LSP creation ma=
y involve varying mux hierarchies on each hop



An end-to-end ODUj service LSP creation may involve zero or more stage ODU =
multiplexing on every hop in the path. Basically,the scenarios discussed in=
 R1 to R3 could be associated with any of the hops involved.



5.      [R5] Support signaling mechanism for egress control of OTN interfac=
es



An egress interface of a ODUj LSP could involve single or multiple stage mu=
ltiplexing. Egress Label sub-object defined in [RFC-4003] must be used to s=
ignal hierarchical multiplexing information pertaining to the egress interf=
ace of the LSP.



6.      [R6] Support signaling mechanism when ODUj service LSP creation req=
uires induced or manually created H-LSP.

Based on the above requirements, following is the comparison between two dr=
afts under discussion.


Requirement

Draft-Zhang

Draft-Khuzema

R1

Supported

Supported

R2

Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers

Supported without H-LSPs. Achieves scalability and better restoration perfo=
rmance.

R3

Supported using H-LSPs for each non-existing HO-ODU layers

Supported without H-LSPs

R4

Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers

Supported without H-LSPs

R5

Not Supported

Supported

R6

Supported using H-LSP

Supported using H-LSP



Would like to hear opinions.

Authors draft-khuzema


From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of G=
RANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 6:53 PM
To: 'CCAMP'
Subject: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status

Hello CCampers,

Currently two drafts exist for the signaling of LSPs in OTN technology.
The two drafts, namely draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709 and
draft-khuzema-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709, contain a lot of similarities
but are fundamentally different with respect to the support of multi-stage =
technology.

Draft-zhang proposes to deal with multi-stage technology via the usage
of H-LSPs as already defined in RFC6107. With this approach all LSPs
belonging to intermediate layers of a hierarchy are signaled as separate H-=
LSPs.
Monitoring, protection and restoration functionalities are applicable indep=
endently to each LSP.

Draft-khuzema proposes to introduce a new multi-stage label concept so that
a single construct contains labels associated to more then one hierarchical=
 level.
This implies that all level in the OTN  hierarchy with the exclusion of ser=
vice levels
are not visible as single LSPs.
Each layer cannot be independently monitored.
Only the service layer (the layer with the finest granularity) can be prote=
cted or restored.

Advantages and disadvantages of both approaches can be summarized in short,=
 telling that
the H-LSP approach is able to work in any situation while the multi-stage l=
abel approach is suitable
on single hops or similar situations (reached signaling before an H-LSP) bu=
t, when used,
optimizes processing.

As such we perceive the Draft-khuzema approach as an optimization that coul=
d be supported in an optional way.

Before going on with merging of the two drafts we would like to hear opinio=
ns from CCampers.

Pietro & Sergio

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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Pietro Vittorio Grandi
Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
Tel: +39 039 686 4930
Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
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Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute. That's rel=
ativity.
(A. Einstein)



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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi Khuzema.<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">See inline for my comment=
s, marked with [JS].<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Jonathan Sadler<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">--&gt;8 SNIP 8&lt;--<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I&#8217;ve looked at your=
 interpretation of how the requirements you&#8217;ve stated below are satis=
fied/not satisfied by the two drafts under consideration and would like
 to ask you about two of your conclusions:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<table class=3D"MsoNormalTable" border=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=
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<tbody>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;background:#C4BC96;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Requirement<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border:solid window=
text 1.0pt;border-left:none;background:#C4BC96;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt"=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Draft-Zhang<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border:solid windowte=
xt 1.0pt;border-left:none;background:#C4BC96;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Draft-Khuzema<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">R2<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windo=
wtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border-top:none;borde=
r-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported without H-LSPs. Achieves scalability and bette=
r restoration performance.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">You state that &#8220;bet=
ter&#8221; scalability and restoration performance is achieved in Draft-Khu=
zema &#8211; I interpret your statement this assuming that under the H-LSP
 approach, any change of a service layer LSP requires a change to both the =
service LSP as well as the lower layer LSP.&nbsp; Please validate my interp=
retation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#984806"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#984806">KP: Better scalability co=
mes from the fact that, we do not have to advertise H-LSP as FAs , hence re=
ducing number of TE-Links in the network. Better restoration
 performance comes, as you correctly understood, we do not have to create l=
ower layer LSP, saving signaling time.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">[JS] I understand there i=
s a reduction of routing information that comes from not advertising the H-=
LSPs, though your assertion this helps scalability seems
 to be assuming a specific routing approach (e.g. distributed path computat=
ion dependent on a replicated distributed topology database).&nbsp; Other r=
outing approaches (e.g. PCE) are not adversely affected.<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">[JS] Independent of this,=
 the choice to not advertise the fact that a lower layer connection was est=
ablished to support higher layer connections leads to stranded
 capacity.&nbsp; This has significant operational (and cost) impact to netw=
ork operators.&nbsp; Under the H-LSP approach, the operator has the choice =
to advertise or not for each H-LSP, thereby allowing for the operator to be=
tter trade-off scalability concerns and resource
 utilization.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Please also validate my u=
nderstanding of the solution proposed in draft-khuzema: it seems the soluti=
on proposed requires separate signaling for each of the
 service LSPs to perform restoration.&nbsp; In the case of an ODU3 full of =
ODU0s, this would be 32 LSPs with 32 separate signaling actions when restor=
ation is required.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Under the H-LSP solution =
in draft-zhang, the same scenario of an ODU3 full of ODU0s would require 33=
 LSPs (32 for the ODU0s and 1 for the ODU3). However, explicitly
 signaling the ODU3 LSP makes it possible to have restoration performed on =
the ODU3, benefiting all of the ODU0 LSPs with one signaling action.&nbsp; =
I therefore would expect the H-LSP solution to have better restoration perf=
ormance.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#984806">KP: The Multi-stage label=
 removes the necessity of single hop H-LSP. Multi-stage label construct wor=
ks in conjunction with H-LSP for the cases when Lower layer
 ODU layer is required to be setup for multiple hops. That is requirement# =
R6.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#984806">Hence I assume when you a=
re comparing multi-stage and H-LSP, you are talking about single hop H-LSP.=
 Since it is a single hop H-LSP, it has only one link between
 2 interfaces and hence there is no way it can restore, if link has gone do=
wn. Now those 32 LSPs has to restore, and depending on the path they find, =
it may involve mulit-stage or H-LSPs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">[JS] Actually, I was cons=
idering the single hop case and signaling restoration of traffic to a diffe=
rent link between two neighboring nodes (the link could
 be within a bundle or otherwise).&nbsp; Restoration certainly can be done =
for the lower layer LSP as long as it goes between the same to fabrics bein=
g connected by the original link.&nbsp; And the upper layer LSPs don&#8217;=
t need to move as they all benefit from the restoration
 of the lower layer LSP.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">[JS] Your discussion abov=
e though points out another benefit of the H-LSP approach.&nbsp; When resto=
ration of a single-hop LSP requires going to a multi-hop path,
 the H-LSP can again facilitate the reroute action with a single signaling =
exchange between the nodes involved in the lower layer LSP.&nbsp; The use o=
f multi-stage labels requires separate signaling exchanges between the same=
 nodes, which can be a significantly
 higher number of messages. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<table class=3D"MsoNormalTable" border=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=
=3D"0" width=3D"638" style=3D"width:6.65in;border-collapse:collapse">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;background:#C4BC96;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Requirement<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border:solid window=
text 1.0pt;border-left:none;background:#C4BC96;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt"=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Draft-Zhang<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border:solid windowte=
xt 1.0pt;border-left:none;background:#C4BC96;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Draft-Khuzema<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">R5<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windo=
wtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Not Supported<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border-top:none;borde=
r-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">R5 states a requirement f=
or egress interface control, and your conclusions above state it isn&#8217;=
t possible to support this in draft-zhang and can be supported
 in draft-khuzema.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">There are solutions that =
allow for egress control to be satisfied using draft-zhang (e.g. assigning =
ifIndexes to potential H-LSPs defining the intermediate
 ODUj &#8211; these can then be specified in an ERO).&nbsp; This approach h=
as the advantage of working with un-bundled as well as bundled egress links=
, including bundles made up of links using different lower layer speed/tech=
nologies (e.g. a bundle of OTU3 and ODU4)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#984806">KP: draft-khuzema does it=
 in single lsp setup (through signaling of course) and hence avoid multiple=
 manual steps to create those H-LSPs. Whatever can be done
 through signaling can also be done manually. Draft-zhang relies on manual =
steps, that&#8217;s the reason of marking that requirement as Not supported=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">[JS] I&#8217;m not certai=
n I understand the manual steps you are citing.&nbsp; The only thing requir=
ed is the assignment of ifIndexes to the potential H-LSPs and the establish=
ment
 of the lower layer connections .&nbsp; This can be done automatically by e=
quipment.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Can you explain how the s=
olution specified in draft-khuzema can handle bundle links where different =
lower layer speeds are in use?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#984806">KP: In the multi-stage la=
bel construct, we are not talking about links, the construct is to identify=
 data plane layer and their time slots. Bundling or no-bundling,
 doesn&#8217;t have any impact.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">[JS]&nbsp; I disagree.&nb=
sp; Egress label control requires the egress label format to be known.&nbsp=
; If the egress link has multiple links in a bundle of different type (e.g.
 a bundle of OTU3 and OTU4), under the multi-stage label proposal, the labe=
l format ends up changing if a resource is being specified on the OTU3 link=
 vs the OTU4 link.&nbsp; Its inherent due to the different &#8220;time slot=
&#8221; (sic) structure of the egress link.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Jonathan Sadler<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> ccamp-bo=
unces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Khuzema Pithewan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 27, 2011 11:23 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); 'CCAMP'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Thanks Pietro and Sergio for starting this off.<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Hi CCampers,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">We would like to provide more context to multi-stage lab=
el approach for better understanding.&nbsp; OTN is inherently a hierarchica=
l network, and there are/will be cases where service ODU has
 to go through mandatory creation of more than one layer because of various=
 technical/economic reasons. We are listing here requirements for supportin=
g services over hierarchical OTN network.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:11=
5%"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times=
 New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:=
115%;background:silver;mso-highlight:silver">[R1]</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%"> Support signaling mechanism to instantiate =
ODUj service layer on a ODUk link via
 single stage muxing. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%">A ODUj LSP could involve zero (j=3Dk) or one stage (j&lt;k) multiplexi=
ng on a given ODUk link. Here both Control-plane and Data-plane entities ar=
e created for the ODUj service layer. ODUk
 link could be a point-to-point OTUk link or a H-LSP.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:11=
5%"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times=
 New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:=
115%;background:silver;mso-highlight:silver">[R2]</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%"> Support signaling mechanism to instantiate =
one or more intermediate layers on a
 ODUk link in order to support the ODUj service layer. <o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%">A ODUj LSP could involve two or more stage multiplexing on a given ODU=
k link. These intermediate layers can be implicitly created as a part of OD=
Uj service LSP creation. In this case,
 both controlplane and dataplane entities will be created for the ODUj serv=
ice layer. However, intermediate ODU layer(s) (implicitly created) will hav=
e dataplane representation only.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:11=
5%"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">3.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times=
 New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:=
115%;background:silver;mso-highlight:silver">[R3]</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%"> Support signaling mechanism to instantiate =
ODUj service layer on a ODUk link where
 one or more intermediate ODU layers may be pre-existing. <o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%">A ODUj LSP could involve two or more stage multiplexing on a given ODU=
k link. These intermediate layers may be pre-existing&nbsp; as a result of =
another LSP creation on the same ODU hierarchy
 or explicitly configured through management interface. <o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:11=
5%"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">4.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times=
 New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:=
115%;background:silver;mso-highlight:silver">[R4]</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%"> Support signaling mechanism where ODUj serv=
ice LSP creation may involve varying
 mux hierarchies on each hop <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%">An end-to-end ODUj service LSP creation may involve zero or more stage=
 ODU multiplexing on every hop in the path. Basically,the scenarios discuss=
ed in R1 to R3 could be associated with
 any of the hops involved.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:11=
5%"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">5.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times=
 New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:=
115%;background:silver;mso-highlight:silver">[R5]</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%"> Support signaling mechanism for egress cont=
rol of OTN interfaces
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%">An egress interface of a ODUj LSP could involve single or multiple sta=
ge multiplexing. Egress Label sub-object defined in [RFC-4003] must be used=
 to signal hierarchical multiplexing
 information pertaining to the egress interface of the LSP.&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:1=
15%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:11=
5%"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">6.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times=
 New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:=
115%;background:silver;mso-highlight:silver">[R6]</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%"> Support signaling mechanism when ODUj servi=
ce LSP creation requires induced or
 manually created H-LSP.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Based on the above requirements, following is the compar=
ison between two drafts under discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<table class=3D"MsoNormalTable" border=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=
=3D"0" width=3D"638" style=3D"width:6.65in;border-collapse:collapse">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;background:#C4BC96;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Requirement<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border:solid window=
text 1.0pt;border-left:none;background:#C4BC96;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt"=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Draft-Zhang<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border:solid windowte=
xt 1.0pt;border-left:none;background:#C4BC96;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Draft-Khuzema<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">R1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windo=
wtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border-top:none;borde=
r-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">R2<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windo=
wtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border-top:none;borde=
r-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported without H-LSPs. Achieves scalability and bette=
r restoration performance.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">R3<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windo=
wtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported using H-LSPs for each non-existing HO-ODU laye=
rs
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border-top:none;borde=
r-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported without H-LSPs<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">R4<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windo=
wtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border-top:none;borde=
r-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported without H-LSPs<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">R5<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windo=
wtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Not Supported<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border-top:none;borde=
r-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"109" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:81.9pt;border:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">R6<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"222" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:166.5pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windo=
wtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported using H-LSP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"307" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:3.2in;border-top:none;borde=
r-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowt=
ext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Supported using H-LSP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Would like to hear opinions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Authors draft-khuzema<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> ccamp-bo=
unces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 27, 2011 6:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'CCAMP'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Hello CCampers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Currently two drafts exist for the signa=
ling of LSPs in OTN technology.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">The two drafts, namely draft-zhang-ccamp=
-gmpls-evolving-g709 and
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">draft-khuzema-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709=
, contain a lot of similarities<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">but are fundamentally different with res=
pect to the support of multi-stage technology.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Draft-zhang proposes to deal with multi-=
stage technology via the usage<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">of H-LSPs as already defined in RFC6107.=
 With this approach all LSPs<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">belonging to intermediate layers of a hi=
erarchy are signaled as separate H-LSPs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Monitoring, protection and restoration f=
unctionalities are applicable independently to each LSP.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Draft-khuzema proposes to introduce a ne=
w multi-stage label concept so that<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">a single construct contains labels assoc=
iated to more then one hierarchical level.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">This implies that all level in the OTN&n=
bsp; hierarchy with the exclusion of service levels<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">are not visible as single LSPs.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Each layer cannot be independently monit=
ored.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Only the service layer (the layer with t=
he finest granularity) can be protected or restored.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Advantages and disadvantages of both app=
roaches can be summarized in short, telling that<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">the H-LSP approach is able to work in an=
y situation while the multi-stage label approach is suitable
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">on single hops or similar situations (re=
ached signaling before an H-LSP) but, when used,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">optimizes processing.<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">As such we perceive the Draft-khuzema ap=
proach as an optimization that could be supported in an optional way.<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Before going on with merging of the two =
drafts we would like to hear opinions from CCampers.&nbsp; &nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Pietro &amp; Sergio<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Pietro Vittorio Grandi</span><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"=
><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution</s=
pan><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sa=
ns-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)</span><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Tel: &#43;39 039 686 4930</span><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot=
;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-luce=
nt.com</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;=
,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute=
, and it seems like an hour.</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and i=
t seems like a&nbsp; minute. That's relativity.</span><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">(A. Einstein)</span><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tr=
ebuchet MS&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
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From IBryskin@advaoptical.com  Thu Jun 30 08:53:52 2011
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From: Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>
To: Khuzema Pithewan <kpithewan@infinera.com>, John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>, "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO	VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
Thread-Topic: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 15:53:29 +0000
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Cc: Ping Pan <PPan@infinera.com>, CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>, Mohit Misra <mmisra@infinera.com>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Khuzema,

Please, see in line

Igor

-----Original Message-----
From: Khuzema Pithewan [mailto:kpithewan@infinera.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 9:45 AM
To: Igor Bryskin; John E Drake; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
Cc: CCAMP; Biao Lu; Ping Pan; Rajan Rao; Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Mohit Misra
Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

Snipped....


1)  Multi-stage labels apply equally well to multi-hop hierarchical LSPs. (=
The is the point some people do not seem to understand.)

IB>> Sorry to admit that I am one of these people. I disagree with you on t=
his. For one thing, I do not like the idea of induced multi-hop H_LSPs. H_L=
SPs IMO should be pre-planned and provisioned in different time frame than =
connections they carry. Besides, multi-hop H-LSPs are links incongruent wit=
h links supported by OTUs, they will surely benefit from their own OAM. If =
I understand Infinera folks correctly, the idea of multi-stage provisioning=
 is to avoid single-hop H-LSPs, and I agree with them.



KP:: This is true that multi-stage replaces only single hop H-LSPs and not =
multi-hop H-LSPs. Having said that, the multi-stage label can be applied on=
 top of H-LSP treating the already setup H-LSP as just another link. For ex=
ample, if on an interface, mux hierarchy is ODU4-ODU3-ODU2-ODU1 and ODU3 ls=
p needs to be setup as H-LSP going through multiple hops, the ODU1 lsp can =
be setup using multi-stage construct using ODU3 H-LSP as link, if other end=
 of the H-LSP also supports extraction and switching of ODU2-ODU1.

IB>> I agree, but existing H-LSP (as long as it is pre-planned and set up i=
n different time frame) is a link no different from, say, OUT link. So this=
 is still a one-hop scenario. What I don't like is induced (created on the =
fly) H-LSPs=20

Igor=20

Thanks
Khuzema

-----Original Message-----
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of I=
gor Bryskin
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 6:48 PM
To: John E Drake; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
Cc: CCAMP
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

John,

Please, see my comments in-line, we do have some disagreements.=20
Igor

-----Original Message-----
From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]=20
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 6:12 PM
To: Igor Bryskin; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
Cc: CCAMP
Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

Igor,

I have a few clarifications.

1)  Multi-stage labels apply equally well to multi-hop hierarchical LSPs. (=
The is the point some people do not seem to understand.)

IB>> Sorry to admit that I am one of these people. I disagree with you on t=
his. For one thing, I do not like the idea of induced multi-hop H_LSPs. H_L=
SPs IMO should be pre-planned and provisioned in different time frame than =
connections they carry. Besides, multi-hop H-LSPs are links incongruent wit=
h links supported by OTUs, they will surely benefit from their own OAM. If =
I understand Infinera folks correctly, the idea of multi-stage provisioning=
 is to avoid single-hop H-LSPs, and I agree with them.=20

2)  It is incorrect to say that LSP hierarchy, as is, just works for the es=
tablishment of a hierarchical LSP that supports multi-stage switching.  Thi=
s involves a nested set of hierarchical LSPs, the containing hierarchical L=
SP and the set of sub-layer LSPs which provide context for intermediate sta=
ge labels, between the same two endpoints.  This is a new construct and the=
re are almost certainly details to be worked out.

IB>> But this could be viewed as a build-up on top of the existing machiner=
y. At any rate, as I said, I don't like the idea of induced H-LSPs in princ=
iple, however, if the H-LSPs are pre-configured, I don't see why the existi=
ng LSP hierarchy won't work as it is.

3)  I don't think we should standardize both approaches.  I would prefer th=
at the working group pick one to standardize.

IB>> I don't see a reason why not to do both,=20

Igor


Sent from my iPhone


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 9:24 AM
> To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); John E Drake
> Cc: CCAMP
> Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
> Hi Pietro,
>
> You may not like John's tone, but emotions aside, what he keeps saying
> repeatedly in this discussion does make perfect sense to me.
> 1) The point of CP signaling is to convey information pertinent to
> network element provisioning in most efficient way. It does seem stupid
> to signal numerous one hop hierarchical LSPs (when it is sufficient a
> single end-to-end round of signaling to do the job), create and support
> numerous extra CP states, take care of all restart implications, etc.
> just to be consistent with RFC_XYZ written 10 years ago;
> 2) Besides, you can think of multi-stage label as identification of a
> new type of network resources controlled by GMPLS. Even the GMPLS god-
> fathers would agree that they never meant to limit GMPLS to control the
> resources described in early CCAMP RFCs.
> 3) Finally, no one ever said that you cannot orchestrate multi-stage
> provisioning through the hierarchy of LSPs if you choose to do so.
>
> Cheers,
> Igor
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 10:43 AM
> To: John E Drake
> Cc: CCAMP
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
> Hello John,
>
> 1) You have forwarded to the CCamp mailing list a number of private
> mails without asking the permission to the involved people. This is
> impolite and unprofessional.
>
> 2) You are creating spam on the mailing list forwarding four threads
> that are each hundreds of lines long and very complicated to follow for
> people not involved in the discussion since the beginning. Moreover,
> this happened after a discussion from scratch was already started in
> the mailing list.
>
> 3) You moved from a technical discussion to arrogant and deliberate
> personal offenses not supported by any sound technical motivation as
> reported in your mails and snipped below:
>
> "This shows a complete lack of understanding of hierarchical LSP,
> multi-stage labels, and GMPLS in general.  It is so bad it is not even
> wrong."
>
> " It might be more precise to say I reviewed your slides and found
> them, shall we say, lacking."
>
> We hope that from now on the discussion can be continued from a purely
> technical point of view.
>
> Pietro, Sergio and Daniele
>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
> Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute. That's
> relativity.
> (A. Einstein)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of John E Drake
> Sent: marted=EC 28 giugno 2011 14.13
> To: CCAMP
> Subject: [CCAMP] FW: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John E Drake
> Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 3:56 PM
> To: 'Fatai Zhang'; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan
> Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -
> Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham; BELOTTI,
> SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli
> Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
> Fatai,
>
> Comments inline.
>
> Thanks,
>
> John
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Fatai Zhang [mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 9:45 AM
> > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); John E Drake
> > Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan
> > Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -
> > Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham;
> BELOTTI,
> > SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli
> > Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > Hi John,
> >
> > I guess that you did not review our slides carefully.
>
> JD:  I will let this pass.
>
> >
> > You just see the only advantage for the corner case (i.e., establish
> > multi-layers LSP concurrently), but you did not see the issues that
> we
> > described in the slides and the issues that Jonathan mentioned (eg.,
> > OAM/protection issues).
>
> JD:  I'm sorry that I didn't provide enough context.  I don't think the
> one-hop hierarchical LSP case, w/ or w/o multi-stage labels is either
> interesting or common and it was not the case to which I was addressing
> my comments.  Rather, I was describing two ways of establishing multi-
> hop multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.  As far as I can tell the issues
> Jonathan raised in this context are red herrings rather than blue
> whales.  Furthermore, regardless of which of the two approaches I
> described is used, the issues, if any, would be exactly the same.
>
> >
> > In addition, we have repeated many times that LSP hierarchy must be
> > used in many cases, even though we have multi-stage label approach.
> > E.g., an ODU0 connection request from A to E through B, C and D, but
> B,
> > C and  D (or one of them ) can not support ODU0 switching, the HO
> ODUj
> > (ODU1 or ODU2 or ODU3 or ODU4) LSP must be created between B and D
> > through LSP hierarchy. This example is very simple and there are lots
> > of transforms for this example to use LSP hierarchy.
>
> JD:  Please see above.  I completely agree with you and was simply
> pointing out that multi-stage labels can be used to improve wrt latency
> and control plane overhead, the establishment of ODUj LSPs within
> multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Fatai
> >
> > Thanks
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John E Drake" <jdrake@juniper.net>
> > To: "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)"
> > <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > Cc: "Daniele Ceccarelli" <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>; "Rajan
> Rao"
> > <rrao@infinera.com>; "Fatai Zhang" <zhangfatai@huawei.com>; "Khuzema
> > Pithewan" <kpithewan@infinera.com>; "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)"
> > <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>; "Ashok Kunjidhapatham"
> > <akunjidhapatham@infinera.com>; "Diego Caviglia"
> > <diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>; "Steve Balls"
> > <Steve.Balls@metaswitch.com>; "Ciena - Lyndon Ong" <LyOng@Ciena.com>;
> > <fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; "NSN - Cyril Margaria"
> <cyril.margaria@nsn.com>;
> > "Li Dan" <huawei.danli@huawei.com>; "Jonathan Hardwick"
> > <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>; "Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler"
> > <jonathan.sadler@tellabs.com>; "Vallinayakam Somasundaram"
> > <valli@juniper.net>
> > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 7:21 PM
> > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> >
> > Pietro,
> >
> > If we are talking about the establishment of LSPs using single-stage
> > muxing, I think the only thing necessary is a new label format, which
> I
> > believe is a bit map of tributary slots; i.e., LSP establishment
> using
> > single-stage muxing is done.
> >
> > We have never had a situation such as multi-stage muxing before so we
> > are breaking new ground and we have two choices, either use LSP
> > hierarchy to establish multiple single-stage sub-layer LSPs
> explicitly
> > and sequentially, or include the sub-layer information within the
> Path
> > message for the ODUj such that the sub-layers are established
> > implicitly and concurrently with the establishment of the ODUj.
> >
> > Either will work, but it seems to me that the latter is more
> efficient
> > wrt latency and control plane overhead.  The one thing I do not want
> to
> > do is to say that both are supported.  If we can agree that we will
> > only use one method to establish multi-stage LSPs, then when a node
> > advertises multi-stage support in routing, we know how signaling is
> to
> > be accomplished.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > John
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 1:31 AM
> > > To: John E Drake
> > > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;
> Steve
> > > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril
> Margaria;
> > > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam
> > > Somasundaram; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > John,
> > >
> > > It seems as though you consider on the same level something (H-LSP
> > > concept) already used in CP managing multi-layer with something
> that
> > > does not exist at all.
> > > Operators are used to managed their CP network together with NMS.
> > > Most of the NMS work per-layer. The utilization of a multi-stage
> > label
> > > would force NMS to work in another manner with heavy implementation
> > > consequences.
> > >
> > > We should also keep in mind that multi-stage label approach can
> only
> > be
> > > used in some cases (not for all the one-hop multi-stage muxing) and
> > it
> > > will bring some management issues. Please see the slides that Fatai
> > > sent a few days ago.
> > >
> > > For both these reasons the "optional" condition of multi-stage
> label
> > > concept is absolutely mandatory for us.
> > >
> > > Pietro, Sergio, Fatai & Daniele
> > >
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> > > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> > > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> > > Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> > > Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an
> hour.
> > > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.
> > That's
> > > relativity.
> > > (A. Einstein)
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > > Sent: sabato 18 giugno 2011 2.40
> > > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;
> Steve
> > > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril
> Margaria;
> > > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam
> > > Somasundaram
> > > Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Pietro,
> > >
> > > We can certainly say that a node that advertises multistage
> switching
> > > support in routing MUST support multistage signaling.
> > >
> > > As I said before, using mutiple RSVP exchanges between the same LSP
> > > endpoints to establish intermediate switching stages seems ill-
> > > considered and forcing everyone to support two ways of signaling
> > > multistage LSPs seems like a really Bad Idea.
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > On Jun 17, 2011, at 2:55 AM, "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO
> > > VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-
> > > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello John,
> > >
> > > I understand that you think that the new switching type in routing
> > > should also convey implicitly the information that a
> > > multi-stage label is supported.
> > >
> > > I do not agree with this statement.
> > > Implementations using H-LSPs plus single stage labels are possible
> > (and
> > > already standard) and the fact the a node supports
> > > the new switching type is not enough to clearly tell what is
> > supported.
> > >
> > > Pietro
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > > Sent: venerd=EC 17 giugno 2011 2.09
> > > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); Daniele Ceccarelli;
> > > Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO);
> > > Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena -
> Lyndon
> > > Ong'; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Pietro,
> > >
> > > Actually we are already covered.   Our advertisements use a
> different
> > > switching type, which is also carried in signaling.  This means
> that
> > we
> > > get to define the signaling used for this switching type, and I am
> > > proposing that we use multistage.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 6:52 AM
> > > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang;
> Khuzema
> > > Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego
> > > Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I  agree with Daniele' statement.
> > >
> > > in my mind this means that single stage label support is implicit
> and
> > > that
> > > multi-stage labels should not be used unless a machine explicitly
> > > declares the support.
> > >
> > > Pietro
> > >
> > >
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> > > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> > > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> > > Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> > > Mail: <mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > > pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-
> > > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an
> hour.
> > > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.
> > That's
> > > relativity.
> > > (A. Einstein)
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]
> > > Sent: gioved=EC 16 giugno 2011 15.48
> > > To: John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> BELOTTI,
> > > SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO
> > (PIETRO
> > > VITTORIO); Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Starting a new thread as we're now moving to signaling...
> > >
> > > Assuming we still have not decided whether we're going to support
> > > single stage only, multi stage only or both of them i believe that
> as
> > > per OSPF we need to consider backward compatibility.
> > >
> > > An implementation RFC4328 based (that we've explicitly been told
> not
> > to
> > > deprecate) is single stage based, so in case of multi stage only or
> > > multi-stage + single stage we should be able to cover backward
> > > compatibility issues somehow.
> > >
> > > BR
> > > Daniele
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > > Sent: gioved=EC 16 giugno 2011 8.53
> > > To: Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham
> > > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;
> > 'Steve
> > > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for
> multi-
> > > stage Vs Single Stage labels)
> > > Rajan,
> > >
> > > I didn't want to allow interoperability options.  I much preferred
> to
> > > say that we do signaling in one way only, using multistage labels.
> > > These are also needed for signaling within  hierarchical LSPs.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > From: Rajan Rao [mailto:rrao@infinera.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 10:46 PM
> > > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; John E Drake; Khuzema
> Pithewan;
> > > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham
> > > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;
> > 'Steve
> > > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for
> multi-
> > > stage Vs Single Stage labels)
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > While we are making updates, let us discuss support required in
> link
> > > advertisement for single/multi-stage label options:
> > >
> > > Given that there is interest in both multi-stage label and single-
> > stage
> > > with H-LSPs, we should consider inclusion of a FLAG to indicate
> what
> > > the link is capable of.  This will address some of the issues we
> have
> > > discussed in the past relating to path computation involving NEs
> with
> > > different capabilities (inter-op).
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Rajan
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
_______________________________________________
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From kpithewan@infinera.com  Thu Jun 30 09:00:39 2011
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From: Khuzema Pithewan <kpithewan@infinera.com>
To: "'IBryskin@advaoptical.com'" <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>, "'jdrake@juniper.net'" <jdrake@juniper.net>, "'pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com'" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
Thread-Topic: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 16:00:13 +0000
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Cc: Ping Pan <PPan@infinera.com>, "'ccamp@ietf.org'" <ccamp@ietf.org>, Mohit Misra <mmisra@infinera.com>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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I agree. H-lsp is a link.

Khuzema


----- Original Message -----
From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 08:53 AM=0A=
To: Khuzema Pithewan; John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>; GRANDI, PIETRO VIT=
TORIO (PIETRO	VITTORIO) <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>; Biao Lu; Ping Pan; Rajan Rao; Ashok Kunjidhapat=
ham; Mohit Misra
Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

Khuzema,

Please, see in line

Igor

-----Original Message-----
From: Khuzema Pithewan [mailto:kpithewan@infinera.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 9:45 AM
To: Igor Bryskin; John E Drake; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
Cc: CCAMP; Biao Lu; Ping Pan; Rajan Rao; Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Mohit Misra
Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

Snipped....


1)  Multi-stage labels apply equally well to multi-hop hierarchical LSPs. (=
The is the point some people do not seem to understand.)

IB>> Sorry to admit that I am one of these people. I disagree with you on t=
his. For one thing, I do not like the idea of induced multi-hop H_LSPs. H_L=
SPs IMO should be pre-planned and provisioned in different time frame than =
connections they carry. Besides, multi-hop H-LSPs are links incongruent wit=
h links supported by OTUs, they will surely benefit from their own OAM. If =
I understand Infinera folks correctly, the idea of multi-stage provisioning=
 is to avoid single-hop H-LSPs, and I agree with them.



KP:: This is true that multi-stage replaces only single hop H-LSPs and not =
multi-hop H-LSPs. Having said that, the multi-stage label can be applied on=
 top of H-LSP treating the already setup H-LSP as just another link. For ex=
ample, if on an interface, mux hierarchy is ODU4-ODU3-ODU2-ODU1 and ODU3 ls=
p needs to be setup as H-LSP going through multiple hops, the ODU1 lsp can =
be setup using multi-stage construct using ODU3 H-LSP as link, if other end=
 of the H-LSP also supports extraction and switching of ODU2-ODU1.

IB>> I agree, but existing H-LSP (as long as it is pre-planned and set up i=
n different time frame) is a link no different from, say, OUT link. So this=
 is still a one-hop scenario. What I don't like is induced (created on the =
fly) H-LSPs=20

Igor=20

Thanks
Khuzema

-----Original Message-----
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of I=
gor Bryskin
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 6:48 PM
To: John E Drake; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
Cc: CCAMP
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

John,

Please, see my comments in-line, we do have some disagreements.=20
Igor

-----Original Message-----
From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]=20
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 6:12 PM
To: Igor Bryskin; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
Cc: CCAMP
Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

Igor,

I have a few clarifications.

1)  Multi-stage labels apply equally well to multi-hop hierarchical LSPs. (=
The is the point some people do not seem to understand.)

IB>> Sorry to admit that I am one of these people. I disagree with you on t=
his. For one thing, I do not like the idea of induced multi-hop H_LSPs. H_L=
SPs IMO should be pre-planned and provisioned in different time frame than =
connections they carry. Besides, multi-hop H-LSPs are links incongruent wit=
h links supported by OTUs, they will surely benefit from their own OAM. If =
I understand Infinera folks correctly, the idea of multi-stage provisioning=
 is to avoid single-hop H-LSPs, and I agree with them.=20

2)  It is incorrect to say that LSP hierarchy, as is, just works for the es=
tablishment of a hierarchical LSP that supports multi-stage switching.  Thi=
s involves a nested set of hierarchical LSPs, the containing hierarchical L=
SP and the set of sub-layer LSPs which provide context for intermediate sta=
ge labels, between the same two endpoints.  This is a new construct and the=
re are almost certainly details to be worked out.

IB>> But this could be viewed as a build-up on top of the existing machiner=
y. At any rate, as I said, I don't like the idea of induced H-LSPs in princ=
iple, however, if the H-LSPs are pre-configured, I don't see why the existi=
ng LSP hierarchy won't work as it is.

3)  I don't think we should standardize both approaches.  I would prefer th=
at the working group pick one to standardize.

IB>> I don't see a reason why not to do both,=20

Igor


Sent from my iPhone


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 9:24 AM
> To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); John E Drake
> Cc: CCAMP
> Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
> Hi Pietro,
>
> You may not like John's tone, but emotions aside, what he keeps saying
> repeatedly in this discussion does make perfect sense to me.
> 1) The point of CP signaling is to convey information pertinent to
> network element provisioning in most efficient way. It does seem stupid
> to signal numerous one hop hierarchical LSPs (when it is sufficient a
> single end-to-end round of signaling to do the job), create and support
> numerous extra CP states, take care of all restart implications, etc.
> just to be consistent with RFC_XYZ written 10 years ago;
> 2) Besides, you can think of multi-stage label as identification of a
> new type of network resources controlled by GMPLS. Even the GMPLS god-
> fathers would agree that they never meant to limit GMPLS to control the
> resources described in early CCAMP RFCs.
> 3) Finally, no one ever said that you cannot orchestrate multi-stage
> provisioning through the hierarchy of LSPs if you choose to do so.
>
> Cheers,
> Igor
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 10:43 AM
> To: John E Drake
> Cc: CCAMP
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
> Hello John,
>
> 1) You have forwarded to the CCamp mailing list a number of private
> mails without asking the permission to the involved people. This is
> impolite and unprofessional.
>
> 2) You are creating spam on the mailing list forwarding four threads
> that are each hundreds of lines long and very complicated to follow for
> people not involved in the discussion since the beginning. Moreover,
> this happened after a discussion from scratch was already started in
> the mailing list.
>
> 3) You moved from a technical discussion to arrogant and deliberate
> personal offenses not supported by any sound technical motivation as
> reported in your mails and snipped below:
>
> "This shows a complete lack of understanding of hierarchical LSP,
> multi-stage labels, and GMPLS in general.  It is so bad it is not even
> wrong."
>
> " It might be more precise to say I reviewed your slides and found
> them, shall we say, lacking."
>
> We hope that from now on the discussion can be continued from a purely
> technical point of view.
>
> Pietro, Sergio and Daniele
>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
> Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute. That's
> relativity.
> (A. Einstein)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of John E Drake
> Sent: marted=EC 28 giugno 2011 14.13
> To: CCAMP
> Subject: [CCAMP] FW: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John E Drake
> Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 3:56 PM
> To: 'Fatai Zhang'; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan
> Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -
> Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham; BELOTTI,
> SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli
> Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
> Fatai,
>
> Comments inline.
>
> Thanks,
>
> John
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Fatai Zhang [mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 9:45 AM
> > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); John E Drake
> > Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan
> > Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -
> > Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham;
> BELOTTI,
> > SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli
> > Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > Hi John,
> >
> > I guess that you did not review our slides carefully.
>
> JD:  I will let this pass.
>
> >
> > You just see the only advantage for the corner case (i.e., establish
> > multi-layers LSP concurrently), but you did not see the issues that
> we
> > described in the slides and the issues that Jonathan mentioned (eg.,
> > OAM/protection issues).
>
> JD:  I'm sorry that I didn't provide enough context.  I don't think the
> one-hop hierarchical LSP case, w/ or w/o multi-stage labels is either
> interesting or common and it was not the case to which I was addressing
> my comments.  Rather, I was describing two ways of establishing multi-
> hop multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.  As far as I can tell the issues
> Jonathan raised in this context are red herrings rather than blue
> whales.  Furthermore, regardless of which of the two approaches I
> described is used, the issues, if any, would be exactly the same.
>
> >
> > In addition, we have repeated many times that LSP hierarchy must be
> > used in many cases, even though we have multi-stage label approach.
> > E.g., an ODU0 connection request from A to E through B, C and D, but
> B,
> > C and  D (or one of them ) can not support ODU0 switching, the HO
> ODUj
> > (ODU1 or ODU2 or ODU3 or ODU4) LSP must be created between B and D
> > through LSP hierarchy. This example is very simple and there are lots
> > of transforms for this example to use LSP hierarchy.
>
> JD:  Please see above.  I completely agree with you and was simply
> pointing out that multi-stage labels can be used to improve wrt latency
> and control plane overhead, the establishment of ODUj LSPs within
> multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Fatai
> >
> > Thanks
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John E Drake" <jdrake@juniper.net>
> > To: "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)"
> > <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > Cc: "Daniele Ceccarelli" <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>; "Rajan
> Rao"
> > <rrao@infinera.com>; "Fatai Zhang" <zhangfatai@huawei.com>; "Khuzema
> > Pithewan" <kpithewan@infinera.com>; "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)"
> > <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>; "Ashok Kunjidhapatham"
> > <akunjidhapatham@infinera.com>; "Diego Caviglia"
> > <diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>; "Steve Balls"
> > <Steve.Balls@metaswitch.com>; "Ciena - Lyndon Ong" <LyOng@Ciena.com>;
> > <fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; "NSN - Cyril Margaria"
> <cyril.margaria@nsn.com>;
> > "Li Dan" <huawei.danli@huawei.com>; "Jonathan Hardwick"
> > <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>; "Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler"
> > <jonathan.sadler@tellabs.com>; "Vallinayakam Somasundaram"
> > <valli@juniper.net>
> > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 7:21 PM
> > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> >
> > Pietro,
> >
> > If we are talking about the establishment of LSPs using single-stage
> > muxing, I think the only thing necessary is a new label format, which
> I
> > believe is a bit map of tributary slots; i.e., LSP establishment
> using
> > single-stage muxing is done.
> >
> > We have never had a situation such as multi-stage muxing before so we
> > are breaking new ground and we have two choices, either use LSP
> > hierarchy to establish multiple single-stage sub-layer LSPs
> explicitly
> > and sequentially, or include the sub-layer information within the
> Path
> > message for the ODUj such that the sub-layers are established
> > implicitly and concurrently with the establishment of the ODUj.
> >
> > Either will work, but it seems to me that the latter is more
> efficient
> > wrt latency and control plane overhead.  The one thing I do not want
> to
> > do is to say that both are supported.  If we can agree that we will
> > only use one method to establish multi-stage LSPs, then when a node
> > advertises multi-stage support in routing, we know how signaling is
> to
> > be accomplished.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > John
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 1:31 AM
> > > To: John E Drake
> > > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;
> Steve
> > > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril
> Margaria;
> > > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam
> > > Somasundaram; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > John,
> > >
> > > It seems as though you consider on the same level something (H-LSP
> > > concept) already used in CP managing multi-layer with something
> that
> > > does not exist at all.
> > > Operators are used to managed their CP network together with NMS.
> > > Most of the NMS work per-layer. The utilization of a multi-stage
> > label
> > > would force NMS to work in another manner with heavy implementation
> > > consequences.
> > >
> > > We should also keep in mind that multi-stage label approach can
> only
> > be
> > > used in some cases (not for all the one-hop multi-stage muxing) and
> > it
> > > will bring some management issues. Please see the slides that Fatai
> > > sent a few days ago.
> > >
> > > For both these reasons the "optional" condition of multi-stage
> label
> > > concept is absolutely mandatory for us.
> > >
> > > Pietro, Sergio, Fatai & Daniele
> > >
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> > > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> > > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> > > Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> > > Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an
> hour.
> > > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.
> > That's
> > > relativity.
> > > (A. Einstein)
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > > Sent: sabato 18 giugno 2011 2.40
> > > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;
> Steve
> > > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril
> Margaria;
> > > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam
> > > Somasundaram
> > > Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Pietro,
> > >
> > > We can certainly say that a node that advertises multistage
> switching
> > > support in routing MUST support multistage signaling.
> > >
> > > As I said before, using mutiple RSVP exchanges between the same LSP
> > > endpoints to establish intermediate switching stages seems ill-
> > > considered and forcing everyone to support two ways of signaling
> > > multistage LSPs seems like a really Bad Idea.
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > On Jun 17, 2011, at 2:55 AM, "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO
> > > VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-
> > > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello John,
> > >
> > > I understand that you think that the new switching type in routing
> > > should also convey implicitly the information that a
> > > multi-stage label is supported.
> > >
> > > I do not agree with this statement.
> > > Implementations using H-LSPs plus single stage labels are possible
> > (and
> > > already standard) and the fact the a node supports
> > > the new switching type is not enough to clearly tell what is
> > supported.
> > >
> > > Pietro
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > > Sent: venerd=EC 17 giugno 2011 2.09
> > > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); Daniele Ceccarelli;
> > > Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO);
> > > Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena -
> Lyndon
> > > Ong'; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Pietro,
> > >
> > > Actually we are already covered.   Our advertisements use a
> different
> > > switching type, which is also carried in signaling.  This means
> that
> > we
> > > get to define the signaling used for this switching type, and I am
> > > proposing that we use multistage.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 6:52 AM
> > > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang;
> Khuzema
> > > Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego
> > > Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I  agree with Daniele' statement.
> > >
> > > in my mind this means that single stage label support is implicit
> and
> > > that
> > > multi-stage labels should not be used unless a machine explicitly
> > > declares the support.
> > >
> > > Pietro
> > >
> > >
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> > > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> > > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> > > Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> > > Mail: <mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > > pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-
> > > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an
> hour.
> > > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.
> > That's
> > > relativity.
> > > (A. Einstein)
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]
> > > Sent: gioved=EC 16 giugno 2011 15.48
> > > To: John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> BELOTTI,
> > > SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO
> > (PIETRO
> > > VITTORIO); Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Starting a new thread as we're now moving to signaling...
> > >
> > > Assuming we still have not decided whether we're going to support
> > > single stage only, multi stage only or both of them i believe that
> as
> > > per OSPF we need to consider backward compatibility.
> > >
> > > An implementation RFC4328 based (that we've explicitly been told
> not
> > to
> > > deprecate) is single stage based, so in case of multi stage only or
> > > multi-stage + single stage we should be able to cover backward
> > > compatibility issues somehow.
> > >
> > > BR
> > > Daniele
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > > Sent: gioved=EC 16 giugno 2011 8.53
> > > To: Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham
> > > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;
> > 'Steve
> > > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for
> multi-
> > > stage Vs Single Stage labels)
> > > Rajan,
> > >
> > > I didn't want to allow interoperability options.  I much preferred
> to
> > > say that we do signaling in one way only, using multistage labels.
> > > These are also needed for signaling within  hierarchical LSPs.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > From: Rajan Rao [mailto:rrao@infinera.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 10:46 PM
> > > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; John E Drake; Khuzema
> Pithewan;
> > > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham
> > > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;
> > 'Steve
> > > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for
> multi-
> > > stage Vs Single Stage labels)
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > While we are making updates, let us discuss support required in
> link
> > > advertisement for single/multi-stage label options:
> > >
> > > Given that there is interest in both multi-stage label and single-
> > stage
> > > with H-LSPs, we should consider inclusion of a FLAG to indicate
> what
> > > the link is capable of.  This will address some of the issues we
> have
> > > discussed in the past relating to path computation involving NEs
> with
> > > different capabilities (inter-op).
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Rajan
> _______________________________________________
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Thread-Topic: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Pardon me for jumping in here....but Igor makes a more fundamental and impo=
rtant point...one cannot create server layer topology on the fly.  A link i=
n layer N network is created by an E2E path in a lower layer N-1 network...=
this is a recursive relationship down to the duct.

I think a great deal of misinformation/confusion has arisen from the flawed=
 notion of a common CP running across all nested later networks....it plain=
 won't work....and a fairly crass observation is that I have yet to see OSP=
F dig a trench and lay a duct layer network followed by its client guided E=
M wave layer network (metallic or optical).....and so on upwards.  And I am=
 scratching the surface here wrt all the practical consequences...there are=
 some very important commercial consequences of assuming one can create 'on=
-demand' topology in a client layer network, and of course there is the kil=
ler observation that (i) not all parties own all the layers down to the duc=
t and (ii) the geographic span of the server topology may be much less than=
 the client.

Aside=3D> If one wants to consider the issue of efficiency here one should =
minimise how many layer networks exist between the TOS layer network that i=
nterfaces with external message/file/stream applications and the BOS layer =
network that modulates an EM wave....note that both the TOS and BOS layer n=
etworks MUST be present in all networking scenarios, but there are an awful=
 lot of other layer networks that are neither of these.  There is a hint in=
 here as to where problems get generated and currently lie....I'll avoid gi=
ving some examples ;-)

A client layer routing process can only be stable/work if a server layer ro=
uting process (which can be very different in nature to the client routing =
process) has provided the client with a *stable* topological resource it ca=
n use.  Or as one of colleagues very nicely/tersely put it:  "One can only =
configure that which already exists"...quite.

regards, Neil

This email contains BT information, which may be privileged or confidential=
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Khuzema Pithewan
> Sent: 30 June 2011 17:00
> To: 'IBryskin@advaoptical.com'; 'jdrake@juniper.net';
> 'pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com'
> Cc: Ping Pan; 'ccamp@ietf.org'; Mohit Misra
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
> I agree. H-lsp is a link.
>
> Khuzema
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com]
> Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 08:53 AM
> To: Khuzema Pithewan; John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>; GRANDI, PIETRO
> VITTORIO (PIETRO      VITTORIO) <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-
> lucent.com>
> Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>; Biao Lu; Ping Pan; Rajan Rao; Ashok
> Kunjidhapatham; Mohit Misra
> Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
> Khuzema,
>
> Please, see in line
>
> Igor
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Khuzema Pithewan [mailto:kpithewan@infinera.com]
> Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 9:45 AM
> To: Igor Bryskin; John E Drake; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO
> VITTORIO)
> Cc: CCAMP; Biao Lu; Ping Pan; Rajan Rao; Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Mohit
> Misra
> Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
> Snipped....
>
>
> 1)  Multi-stage labels apply equally well to multi-hop hierarchical
> LSPs. (The is the point some people do not seem to understand.)
>
> IB>> Sorry to admit that I am one of these people. I disagree with you
> on this. For one thing, I do not like the idea of induced multi-hop
> H_LSPs. H_LSPs IMO should be pre-planned and provisioned in different
> time frame than connections they carry. Besides, multi-hop H-LSPs are
> links incongruent with links supported by OTUs, they will surely
> benefit from their own OAM. If I understand Infinera folks correctly,
> the idea of multi-stage provisioning is to avoid single-hop H-LSPs, and
> I agree with them.
>
>
>
> KP:: This is true that multi-stage replaces only single hop H-LSPs and
> not multi-hop H-LSPs. Having said that, the multi-stage label can be
> applied on top of H-LSP treating the already setup H-LSP as just
> another link. For example, if on an interface, mux hierarchy is ODU4-
> ODU3-ODU2-ODU1 and ODU3 lsp needs to be setup as H-LSP going through
> multiple hops, the ODU1 lsp can be setup using multi-stage construct
> using ODU3 H-LSP as link, if other end of the H-LSP also supports
> extraction and switching of ODU2-ODU1.
>
> IB>> I agree, but existing H-LSP (as long as it is pre-planned and set
> up in different time frame) is a link no different from, say, OUT link.
> So this is still a one-hop scenario. What I don't like is induced
> (created on the fly) H-LSPs
>
> Igor
>
> Thanks
> Khuzema
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Igor Bryskin
> Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 6:48 PM
> To: John E Drake; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> Cc: CCAMP
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
> John,
>
> Please, see my comments in-line, we do have some disagreements.
> Igor
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 6:12 PM
> To: Igor Bryskin; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> Cc: CCAMP
> Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
> Igor,
>
> I have a few clarifications.
>
> 1)  Multi-stage labels apply equally well to multi-hop hierarchical
> LSPs. (The is the point some people do not seem to understand.)
>
> IB>> Sorry to admit that I am one of these people. I disagree with you
> on this. For one thing, I do not like the idea of induced multi-hop
> H_LSPs. H_LSPs IMO should be pre-planned and provisioned in different
> time frame than connections they carry. Besides, multi-hop H-LSPs are
> links incongruent with links supported by OTUs, they will surely
> benefit from their own OAM. If I understand Infinera folks correctly,
> the idea of multi-stage provisioning is to avoid single-hop H-LSPs, and
> I agree with them.
>
> 2)  It is incorrect to say that LSP hierarchy, as is, just works for
> the establishment of a hierarchical LSP that supports multi-stage
> switching.  This involves a nested set of hierarchical LSPs, the
> containing hierarchical LSP and the set of sub-layer LSPs which provide
> context for intermediate stage labels, between the same two endpoints.
> This is a new construct and there are almost certainly details to be
> worked out.
>
> IB>> But this could be viewed as a build-up on top of the existing
> machinery. At any rate, as I said, I don't like the idea of induced H-
> LSPs in principle, however, if the H-LSPs are pre-configured, I don't
> see why the existing LSP hierarchy won't work as it is.
>
> 3)  I don't think we should standardize both approaches.  I would
> prefer that the working group pick one to standardize.
>
> IB>> I don't see a reason why not to do both,
>
> Igor
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 9:24 AM
> > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); John E Drake
> > Cc: CCAMP
> > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > Hi Pietro,
> >
> > You may not like John's tone, but emotions aside, what he keeps
> saying
> > repeatedly in this discussion does make perfect sense to me.
> > 1) The point of CP signaling is to convey information pertinent to
> > network element provisioning in most efficient way. It does seem
> stupid
> > to signal numerous one hop hierarchical LSPs (when it is sufficient a
> > single end-to-end round of signaling to do the job), create and
> support
> > numerous extra CP states, take care of all restart implications, etc.
> > just to be consistent with RFC_XYZ written 10 years ago;
> > 2) Besides, you can think of multi-stage label as identification of a
> > new type of network resources controlled by GMPLS. Even the GMPLS
> god-
> > fathers would agree that they never meant to limit GMPLS to control
> the
> > resources described in early CCAMP RFCs.
> > 3) Finally, no one ever said that you cannot orchestrate multi-stage
> > provisioning through the hierarchy of LSPs if you choose to do so.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Igor
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf
> > Of GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 10:43 AM
> > To: John E Drake
> > Cc: CCAMP
> > Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > Hello John,
> >
> > 1) You have forwarded to the CCamp mailing list a number of private
> > mails without asking the permission to the involved people. This is
> > impolite and unprofessional.
> >
> > 2) You are creating spam on the mailing list forwarding four threads
> > that are each hundreds of lines long and very complicated to follow
> for
> > people not involved in the discussion since the beginning. Moreover,
> > this happened after a discussion from scratch was already started in
> > the mailing list.
> >
> > 3) You moved from a technical discussion to arrogant and deliberate
> > personal offenses not supported by any sound technical motivation as
> > reported in your mails and snipped below:
> >
> > "This shows a complete lack of understanding of hierarchical LSP,
> > multi-stage labels, and GMPLS in general.  It is so bad it is not
> even
> > wrong."
> >
> > " It might be more precise to say I reviewed your slides and found
> > them, shall we say, lacking."
> >
> > We hope that from now on the discussion can be continued from a
> purely
> > technical point of view.
> >
> > Pietro, Sergio and Daniele
> >
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> > Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> > Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
> > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.
> That's
> > relativity.
> > (A. Einstein)
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf
> > Of John E Drake
> > Sent: marted=EC 28 giugno 2011 14.13
> > To: CCAMP
> > Subject: [CCAMP] FW: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: John E Drake
> > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 3:56 PM
> > To: 'Fatai Zhang'; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan
> > Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -
> > Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham;
> BELOTTI,
> > SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli
> > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > Fatai,
> >
> > Comments inline.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > John
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Fatai Zhang [mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 9:45 AM
> > > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); John E Drake
> > > Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan
> > > Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena
> -
> > > Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham;
> > BELOTTI,
> > > SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli
> > > Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Hi John,
> > >
> > > I guess that you did not review our slides carefully.
> >
> > JD:  I will let this pass.
> >
> > >
> > > You just see the only advantage for the corner case (i.e.,
> establish
> > > multi-layers LSP concurrently), but you did not see the issues that
> > we
> > > described in the slides and the issues that Jonathan mentioned
> (eg.,
> > > OAM/protection issues).
> >
> > JD:  I'm sorry that I didn't provide enough context.  I don't think
> the
> > one-hop hierarchical LSP case, w/ or w/o multi-stage labels is either
> > interesting or common and it was not the case to which I was
> addressing
> > my comments.  Rather, I was describing two ways of establishing
> multi-
> > hop multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.  As far as I can tell the issues
> > Jonathan raised in this context are red herrings rather than blue
> > whales.  Furthermore, regardless of which of the two approaches I
> > described is used, the issues, if any, would be exactly the same.
> >
> > >
> > > In addition, we have repeated many times that LSP hierarchy must be
> > > used in many cases, even though we have multi-stage label approach.
> > > E.g., an ODU0 connection request from A to E through B, C and D,
> but
> > B,
> > > C and  D (or one of them ) can not support ODU0 switching, the HO
> > ODUj
> > > (ODU1 or ODU2 or ODU3 or ODU4) LSP must be created between B and D
> > > through LSP hierarchy. This example is very simple and there are
> lots
> > > of transforms for this example to use LSP hierarchy.
> >
> > JD:  Please see above.  I completely agree with you and was simply
> > pointing out that multi-stage labels can be used to improve wrt
> latency
> > and control plane overhead, the establishment of ODUj LSPs within
> > multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Fatai
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "John E Drake" <jdrake@juniper.net>
> > > To: "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)"
> > > <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > > Cc: "Daniele Ceccarelli" <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>; "Rajan
> > Rao"
> > > <rrao@infinera.com>; "Fatai Zhang" <zhangfatai@huawei.com>;
> "Khuzema
> > > Pithewan" <kpithewan@infinera.com>; "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)"
> > > <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>; "Ashok Kunjidhapatham"
> > > <akunjidhapatham@infinera.com>; "Diego Caviglia"
> > > <diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>; "Steve Balls"
> > > <Steve.Balls@metaswitch.com>; "Ciena - Lyndon Ong"
> <LyOng@Ciena.com>;
> > > <fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; "NSN - Cyril Margaria"
> > <cyril.margaria@nsn.com>;
> > > "Li Dan" <huawei.danli@huawei.com>; "Jonathan Hardwick"
> > > <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>; "Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler"
> > > <jonathan.sadler@tellabs.com>; "Vallinayakam Somasundaram"
> > > <valli@juniper.net>
> > > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 7:21 PM
> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > >
> > > Pietro,
> > >
> > > If we are talking about the establishment of LSPs using single-
> stage
> > > muxing, I think the only thing necessary is a new label format,
> which
> > I
> > > believe is a bit map of tributary slots; i.e., LSP establishment
> > using
> > > single-stage muxing is done.
> > >
> > > We have never had a situation such as multi-stage muxing before so
> we
> > > are breaking new ground and we have two choices, either use LSP
> > > hierarchy to establish multiple single-stage sub-layer LSPs
> > explicitly
> > > and sequentially, or include the sub-layer information within the
> > Path
> > > message for the ODUj such that the sub-layers are established
> > > implicitly and concurrently with the establishment of the ODUj.
> > >
> > > Either will work, but it seems to me that the latter is more
> > efficient
> > > wrt latency and control plane overhead.  The one thing I do not
> want
> > to
> > > do is to say that both are supported.  If we can agree that we will
> > > only use one method to establish multi-stage LSPs, then when a node
> > > advertises multi-stage support in routing, we know how signaling is
> > to
> > > be accomplished.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > > > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 1:31 AM
> > > > To: John E Drake
> > > > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > > > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;
> > Steve
> > > > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril
> > Margaria;
> > > > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler;
> Vallinayakam
> > > > Somasundaram; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > > >
> > > > John,
> > > >
> > > > It seems as though you consider on the same level something (H-
> LSP
> > > > concept) already used in CP managing multi-layer with something
> > that
> > > > does not exist at all.
> > > > Operators are used to managed their CP network together with NMS.
> > > > Most of the NMS work per-layer. The utilization of a multi-stage
> > > label
> > > > would force NMS to work in another manner with heavy
> implementation
> > > > consequences.
> > > >
> > > > We should also keep in mind that multi-stage label approach can
> > only
> > > be
> > > > used in some cases (not for all the one-hop multi-stage muxing)
> and
> > > it
> > > > will bring some management issues. Please see the slides that
> Fatai
> > > > sent a few days ago.
> > > >
> > > > For both these reasons the "optional" condition of multi-stage
> > label
> > > > concept is absolutely mandatory for us.
> > > >
> > > > Pietro, Sergio, Fatai & Daniele
> > > >
> > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > > Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> > > > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> > > > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> > > > Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> > > > Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
> > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an
> > hour.
> > > > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.
> > > That's
> > > > relativity.
> > > > (A. Einstein)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > > > Sent: sabato 18 giugno 2011 2.40
> > > > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > > > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;
> > Steve
> > > > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril
> > Margaria;
> > > > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler;
> Vallinayakam
> > > > Somasundaram
> > > > Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > > >
> > > > Pietro,
> > > >
> > > > We can certainly say that a node that advertises multistage
> > switching
> > > > support in routing MUST support multistage signaling.
> > > >
> > > > As I said before, using mutiple RSVP exchanges between the same
> LSP
> > > > endpoints to establish intermediate switching stages seems ill-
> > > > considered and forcing everyone to support two ways of signaling
> > > > multistage LSPs seems like a really Bad Idea.
> > > >
> > > > John
> > > >
> > > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > >
> > > > On Jun 17, 2011, at 2:55 AM, "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO
> > > > VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-
> > > > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hello John,
> > > >
> > > > I understand that you think that the new switching type in
> routing
> > > > should also convey implicitly the information that a
> > > > multi-stage label is supported.
> > > >
> > > > I do not agree with this statement.
> > > > Implementations using H-LSPs plus single stage labels are
> possible
> > > (and
> > > > already standard) and the fact the a node supports
> > > > the new switching type is not enough to clearly tell what is
> > > supported.
> > > >
> > > > Pietro
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > > > Sent: venerd=EC 17 giugno 2011 2.09
> > > > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); Daniele
> Ceccarelli;
> > > > Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO
> (SERGIO);
> > > > Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena -
> > Lyndon
> > > > Ong'; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN -
> Cyril
> > > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > > Sadler';
> > > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > > >
> > > > Pietro,
> > > >
> > > > Actually we are already covered.   Our advertisements use a
> > different
> > > > switching type, which is also carried in signaling.  This means
> > that
> > > we
> > > > get to define the signaling used for this switching type, and I
> am
> > > > proposing that we use multistage.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > John
> > > >
> > > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > >
> > > > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > > > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 6:52 AM
> > > > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang;
> > Khuzema
> > > > Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego
> > > > Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > > Sadler';
> > > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > I  agree with Daniele' statement.
> > > >
> > > > in my mind this means that single stage label support is implicit
> > and
> > > > that
> > > > multi-stage labels should not be used unless a machine explicitly
> > > > declares the support.
> > > >
> > > > Pietro
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > > Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> > > > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> > > > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> > > > Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> > > > Mail: <mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > > > pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-
> > > > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an
> > hour.
> > > > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.
> > > That's
> > > > relativity.
> > > > (A. Einstein)
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]
> > > > Sent: gioved=EC 16 giugno 2011 15.48
> > > > To: John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > BELOTTI,
> > > > SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO
> > > (PIETRO
> > > > VITTORIO); Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > > Sadler';
> > > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > > Subject: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > > >
> > > > Starting a new thread as we're now moving to signaling...
> > > >
> > > > Assuming we still have not decided whether we're going to support
> > > > single stage only, multi stage only or both of them i believe
> that
> > as
> > > > per OSPF we need to consider backward compatibility.
> > > >
> > > > An implementation RFC4328 based (that we've explicitly been told
> > not
> > > to
> > > > deprecate) is single stage based, so in case of multi stage only
> or
> > > > multi-stage + single stage we should be able to cover backward
> > > > compatibility issues somehow.
> > > >
> > > > BR
> > > > Daniele
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > > > Sent: gioved=EC 16 giugno 2011 8.53
> > > > To: Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > > > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham
> > > > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;
> > > 'Steve
> > > > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > > Sadler';
> > > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for
> > multi-
> > > > stage Vs Single Stage labels)
> > > > Rajan,
> > > >
> > > > I didn't want to allow interoperability options.  I much
> preferred
> > to
> > > > say that we do signaling in one way only, using multistage
> labels.
> > > > These are also needed for signaling within  hierarchical LSPs.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > John
> > > >
> > > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > >
> > > > From: Rajan Rao [mailto:rrao@infinera.com]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 10:46 PM
> > > > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; John E Drake; Khuzema
> > Pithewan;
> > > > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham
> > > > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;
> > > 'Steve
> > > > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > > Sadler';
> > > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for
> > multi-
> > > > stage Vs Single Stage labels)
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > While we are making updates, let us discuss support required in
> > link
> > > > advertisement for single/multi-stage label options:
> > > >
> > > > Given that there is interest in both multi-stage label and
> single-
> > > stage
> > > > with H-LSPs, we should consider inclusion of a FLAG to indicate
> > what
> > > > the link is capable of.  This will address some of the issues we
> > have
> > > > discussed in the past relating to path computation involving NEs
> > with
> > > > different capabilities (inter-op).
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > > Rajan
> > _______________________________________________
> > CCAMP mailing list
> > CCAMP@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> > _______________________________________________
> > CCAMP mailing list
> > CCAMP@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

From zhangfatai@huawei.com  Thu Jun 30 17:50:37 2011
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Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2011 08:50:27 +0800
From: Fatai Zhang <zhangfatai@huawei.com>
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To: 'Khuzema Pithewan' <kpithewan@infinera.com>, IBryskin@advaoptical.com, jdrake@juniper.net, pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
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Cc: 'Ping Pan' <PPan@infinera.com>, ccamp@ietf.org, 'Mohit Misra' <mmisra@infinera.com>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
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Hi all,

Agree. That is what we are trying to convey to some people under =
multi-stage label context.




Thanks
=20
Fatai

-----Original Message-----
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of Khuzema Pithewan
Sent: 2011=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=881=E6=97=A5 0:00
To: 'IBryskin@advaoptical.com'; 'jdrake@juniper.net'; =
'pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com'
Cc: Ping Pan; 'ccamp@ietf.org'; Mohit Misra
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

I agree. H-lsp is a link.

Khuzema


----- Original Message -----
From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 08:53 AM
To: Khuzema Pithewan; John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>; GRANDI, PIETRO =
VITTORIO (PIETRO	VITTORIO) <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>; Biao Lu; Ping Pan; Rajan Rao; Ashok =
Kunjidhapatham; Mohit Misra
Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

Khuzema,

Please, see in line

Igor

-----Original Message-----
From: Khuzema Pithewan [mailto:kpithewan@infinera.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 9:45 AM
To: Igor Bryskin; John E Drake; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO =
VITTORIO)
Cc: CCAMP; Biao Lu; Ping Pan; Rajan Rao; Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Mohit =
Misra
Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

Snipped....


1)  Multi-stage labels apply equally well to multi-hop hierarchical =
LSPs. (The is the point some people do not seem to understand.)

IB>> Sorry to admit that I am one of these people. I disagree with you =
on this. For one thing, I do not like the idea of induced multi-hop =
H_LSPs. H_LSPs IMO should be pre-planned and provisioned in different =
time frame than connections they carry. Besides, multi-hop H-LSPs are =
links incongruent with links supported by OTUs, they will surely benefit =
from their own OAM. If I understand Infinera folks correctly, the idea =
of multi-stage provisioning is to avoid single-hop H-LSPs, and I agree =
with them.



KP:: This is true that multi-stage replaces only single hop H-LSPs and =
not multi-hop H-LSPs. Having said that, the multi-stage label can be =
applied on top of H-LSP treating the already setup H-LSP as just another =
link. For example, if on an interface, mux hierarchy is =
ODU4-ODU3-ODU2-ODU1 and ODU3 lsp needs to be setup as H-LSP going =
through multiple hops, the ODU1 lsp can be setup using multi-stage =
construct using ODU3 H-LSP as link, if other end of the H-LSP also =
supports extraction and switching of ODU2-ODU1.

IB>> I agree, but existing H-LSP (as long as it is pre-planned and set =
up in different time frame) is a link no different from, say, OUT link. =
So this is still a one-hop scenario. What I don't like is induced =
(created on the fly) H-LSPs=20

Igor=20

Thanks
Khuzema

-----Original Message-----
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of Igor Bryskin
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 6:48 PM
To: John E Drake; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
Cc: CCAMP
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

John,

Please, see my comments in-line, we do have some disagreements.=20
Igor

-----Original Message-----
From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]=20
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 6:12 PM
To: Igor Bryskin; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
Cc: CCAMP
Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage

Igor,

I have a few clarifications.

1)  Multi-stage labels apply equally well to multi-hop hierarchical =
LSPs. (The is the point some people do not seem to understand.)

IB>> Sorry to admit that I am one of these people. I disagree with you =
on this. For one thing, I do not like the idea of induced multi-hop =
H_LSPs. H_LSPs IMO should be pre-planned and provisioned in different =
time frame than connections they carry. Besides, multi-hop H-LSPs are =
links incongruent with links supported by OTUs, they will surely benefit =
from their own OAM. If I understand Infinera folks correctly, the idea =
of multi-stage provisioning is to avoid single-hop H-LSPs, and I agree =
with them.=20

2)  It is incorrect to say that LSP hierarchy, as is, just works for the =
establishment of a hierarchical LSP that supports multi-stage switching. =
 This involves a nested set of hierarchical LSPs, the containing =
hierarchical LSP and the set of sub-layer LSPs which provide context for =
intermediate stage labels, between the same two endpoints.  This is a =
new construct and there are almost certainly details to be worked out.

IB>> But this could be viewed as a build-up on top of the existing =
machinery. At any rate, as I said, I don't like the idea of induced =
H-LSPs in principle, however, if the H-LSPs are pre-configured, I don't =
see why the existing LSP hierarchy won't work as it is.

3)  I don't think we should standardize both approaches.  I would prefer =
that the working group pick one to standardize.

IB>> I don't see a reason why not to do both,=20

Igor


Sent from my iPhone


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 9:24 AM
> To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); John E Drake
> Cc: CCAMP
> Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
> Hi Pietro,
>
> You may not like John's tone, but emotions aside, what he keeps saying
> repeatedly in this discussion does make perfect sense to me.
> 1) The point of CP signaling is to convey information pertinent to
> network element provisioning in most efficient way. It does seem =
stupid
> to signal numerous one hop hierarchical LSPs (when it is sufficient a
> single end-to-end round of signaling to do the job), create and =
support
> numerous extra CP states, take care of all restart implications, etc.
> just to be consistent with RFC_XYZ written 10 years ago;
> 2) Besides, you can think of multi-stage label as identification of a
> new type of network resources controlled by GMPLS. Even the GMPLS god-
> fathers would agree that they never meant to limit GMPLS to control =
the
> resources described in early CCAMP RFCs.
> 3) Finally, no one ever said that you cannot orchestrate multi-stage
> provisioning through the hierarchy of LSPs if you choose to do so.
>
> Cheers,
> Igor
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 10:43 AM
> To: John E Drake
> Cc: CCAMP
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
> Hello John,
>
> 1) You have forwarded to the CCamp mailing list a number of private
> mails without asking the permission to the involved people. This is
> impolite and unprofessional.
>
> 2) You are creating spam on the mailing list forwarding four threads
> that are each hundreds of lines long and very complicated to follow =
for
> people not involved in the discussion since the beginning. Moreover,
> this happened after a discussion from scratch was already started in
> the mailing list.
>
> 3) You moved from a technical discussion to arrogant and deliberate
> personal offenses not supported by any sound technical motivation as
> reported in your mails and snipped below:
>
> "This shows a complete lack of understanding of hierarchical LSP,
> multi-stage labels, and GMPLS in general.  It is so bad it is not even
> wrong."
>
> " It might be more precise to say I reviewed your slides and found
> them, shall we say, lacking."
>
> We hope that from now on the discussion can be continued from a purely
> technical point of view.
>
> Pietro, Sergio and Daniele
>
> =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
> =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
> Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute. =
That's
> relativity.
> (A. Einstein)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of John E Drake
> Sent: marted=C3=AC 28 giugno 2011 14.13
> To: CCAMP
> Subject: [CCAMP] FW: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John E Drake
> Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 3:56 PM
> To: 'Fatai Zhang'; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan
> Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -
> Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham; =
BELOTTI,
> SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli
> Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
>
> Fatai,
>
> Comments inline.
>
> Thanks,
>
> John
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Fatai Zhang [mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 9:45 AM
> > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); John E Drake
> > Cc: Vallinayakam Somasundaram; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Jonathan
> > Hardwick; Li Dan; NSN - Cyril Margaria; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; Ciena -
> > Lyndon Ong; Steve Balls; Diego Caviglia; Ashok Kunjidhapatham;
> BELOTTI,
> > SERGIO (SERGIO); Khuzema Pithewan; Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli
> > Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> > Hi John,
> >
> > I guess that you did not review our slides carefully.
>
> JD:  I will let this pass.
>
> >
> > You just see the only advantage for the corner case (i.e., establish
> > multi-layers LSP concurrently), but you did not see the issues that
> we
> > described in the slides and the issues that Jonathan mentioned (eg.,
> > OAM/protection issues).
>
> JD:  I'm sorry that I didn't provide enough context.  I don't think =
the
> one-hop hierarchical LSP case, w/ or w/o multi-stage labels is either
> interesting or common and it was not the case to which I was =
addressing
> my comments.  Rather, I was describing two ways of establishing multi-
> hop multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.  As far as I can tell the issues
> Jonathan raised in this context are red herrings rather than blue
> whales.  Furthermore, regardless of which of the two approaches I
> described is used, the issues, if any, would be exactly the same.
>
> >
> > In addition, we have repeated many times that LSP hierarchy must be
> > used in many cases, even though we have multi-stage label approach.
> > E.g., an ODU0 connection request from A to E through B, C and D, but
> B,
> > C and  D (or one of them ) can not support ODU0 switching, the HO
> ODUj
> > (ODU1 or ODU2 or ODU3 or ODU4) LSP must be created between B and D
> > through LSP hierarchy. This example is very simple and there are =
lots
> > of transforms for this example to use LSP hierarchy.
>
> JD:  Please see above.  I completely agree with you and was simply
> pointing out that multi-stage labels can be used to improve wrt =
latency
> and control plane overhead, the establishment of ODUj LSPs within
> multi-stage hierarchical LSPs.
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Fatai
> >
> > Thanks
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John E Drake" <jdrake@juniper.net>
> > To: "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)"
> > <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > Cc: "Daniele Ceccarelli" <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>; "Rajan
> Rao"
> > <rrao@infinera.com>; "Fatai Zhang" <zhangfatai@huawei.com>; "Khuzema
> > Pithewan" <kpithewan@infinera.com>; "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)"
> > <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>; "Ashok Kunjidhapatham"
> > <akunjidhapatham@infinera.com>; "Diego Caviglia"
> > <diego.caviglia@ericsson.com>; "Steve Balls"
> > <Steve.Balls@metaswitch.com>; "Ciena - Lyndon Ong" =
<LyOng@Ciena.com>;
> > <fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; "NSN - Cyril Margaria"
> <cyril.margaria@nsn.com>;
> > "Li Dan" <huawei.danli@huawei.com>; "Jonathan Hardwick"
> > <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>; "Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler"
> > <jonathan.sadler@tellabs.com>; "Vallinayakam Somasundaram"
> > <valli@juniper.net>
> > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 7:21 PM
> > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> >
> >
> > Pietro,
> >
> > If we are talking about the establishment of LSPs using single-stage
> > muxing, I think the only thing necessary is a new label format, =
which
> I
> > believe is a bit map of tributary slots; i.e., LSP establishment
> using
> > single-stage muxing is done.
> >
> > We have never had a situation such as multi-stage muxing before so =
we
> > are breaking new ground and we have two choices, either use LSP
> > hierarchy to establish multiple single-stage sub-layer LSPs
> explicitly
> > and sequentially, or include the sub-layer information within the
> Path
> > message for the ODUj such that the sub-layers are established
> > implicitly and concurrently with the establishment of the ODUj.
> >
> > Either will work, but it seems to me that the latter is more
> efficient
> > wrt latency and control plane overhead.  The one thing I do not want
> to
> > do is to say that both are supported.  If we can agree that we will
> > only use one method to establish multi-stage LSPs, then when a node
> > advertises multi-stage support in routing, we know how signaling is
> to
> > be accomplished.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > John
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 1:31 AM
> > > To: John E Drake
> > > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;
> Steve
> > > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril
> Margaria;
> > > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam
> > > Somasundaram; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > John,
> > >
> > > It seems as though you consider on the same level something (H-LSP
> > > concept) already used in CP managing multi-layer with something
> that
> > > does not exist at all.
> > > Operators are used to managed their CP network together with NMS.
> > > Most of the NMS work per-layer. The utilization of a multi-stage
> > label
> > > would force NMS to work in another manner with heavy =
implementation
> > > consequences.
> > >
> > > We should also keep in mind that multi-stage label approach can
> only
> > be
> > > used in some cases (not for all the one-hop multi-stage muxing) =
and
> > it
> > > will bring some management issues. Please see the slides that =
Fatai
> > > sent a few days ago.
> > >
> > > For both these reasons the "optional" condition of multi-stage
> label
> > > concept is absolutely mandatory for us.
> > >
> > > Pietro, Sergio, Fatai & Daniele
> > >
> > > =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> > > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> > > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> > > Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> > > Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
> > > =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an
> hour.
> > > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.
> > That's
> > > relativity.
> > > (A. Einstein)
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > > Sent: sabato 18 giugno 2011 2.40
> > > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > > BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia;
> Steve
> > > Balls; Ciena - Lyndon Ong; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn; NSN - Cyril
> Margaria;
> > > Li Dan; Jonathan Hardwick; Tellabs - Jonathan Sadler; Vallinayakam
> > > Somasundaram
> > > Subject: Re: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Pietro,
> > >
> > > We can certainly say that a node that advertises multistage
> switching
> > > support in routing MUST support multistage signaling.
> > >
> > > As I said before, using mutiple RSVP exchanges between the same =
LSP
> > > endpoints to establish intermediate switching stages seems ill-
> > > considered and forcing everyone to support two ways of signaling
> > > multistage LSPs seems like a really Bad Idea.
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > On Jun 17, 2011, at 2:55 AM, "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO
> > > VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-
> > > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello John,
> > >
> > > I understand that you think that the new switching type in routing
> > > should also convey implicitly the information that a
> > > multi-stage label is supported.
> > >
> > > I do not agree with this statement.
> > > Implementations using H-LSPs plus single stage labels are possible
> > (and
> > > already standard) and the fact the a node supports
> > > the new switching type is not enough to clearly tell what is
> > supported.
> > >
> > > Pietro
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > > Sent: venerd=C3=AC 17 giugno 2011 2.09
> > > To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); Daniele Ceccarelli;
> > > Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO =
(SERGIO);
> > > Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena -
> Lyndon
> > > Ong'; fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - =
Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Pietro,
> > >
> > > Actually we are already covered.   Our advertisements use a
> different
> > > switching type, which is also carried in signaling.  This means
> that
> > we
> > > get to define the signaling used for this switching type, and I am
> > > proposing that we use multistage.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> > > [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 6:52 AM
> > > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang;
> Khuzema
> > > Pithewan; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; Diego
> > > Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I  agree with Daniele' statement.
> > >
> > > in my mind this means that single stage label support is implicit
> and
> > > that
> > > multi-stage labels should not be used unless a machine explicitly
> > > declares the support.
> > >
> > > Pietro
> > >
> > >
> > > =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> > > Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> > > Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> > > Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> > > Mail: <mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > > pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-
> > > lucent.com<mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > > =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an
> hour.
> > > Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute.
> > That's
> > > relativity.
> > > (A. Einstein)
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]
> > > Sent: gioved=C3=AC 16 giugno 2011 15.48
> > > To: John E Drake; Rajan Rao; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> BELOTTI,
> > > SERGIO (SERGIO); Ashok Kunjidhapatham; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO
> > (PIETRO
> > > VITTORIO); Diego Caviglia; 'Steve Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RSVP OTN single stage vs multi stage
> > >
> > > Starting a new thread as we're now moving to signaling...
> > >
> > > Assuming we still have not decided whether we're going to support
> > > single stage only, multi stage only or both of them i believe that
> as
> > > per OSPF we need to consider backward compatibility.
> > >
> > > An implementation RFC4328 based (that we've explicitly been told
> not
> > to
> > > deprecate) is single stage based, so in case of multi stage only =
or
> > > multi-stage + single stage we should be able to cover backward
> > > compatibility issues somehow.
> > >
> > > BR
> > > Daniele
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> > > Sent: gioved=C3=AC 16 giugno 2011 8.53
> > > To: Rajan Rao; Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; Khuzema Pithewan;
> > > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham
> > > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;
> > 'Steve
> > > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for
> multi-
> > > stage Vs Single Stage labels)
> > > Rajan,
> > >
> > > I didn't want to allow interoperability options.  I much preferred
> to
> > > say that we do signaling in one way only, using multistage labels.
> > > These are also needed for signaling within  hierarchical LSPs.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > From: Rajan Rao [mailto:rrao@infinera.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 10:46 PM
> > > To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Fatai Zhang; John E Drake; Khuzema
> Pithewan;
> > > 'BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)'; Ashok Kunjidhapatham
> > > Cc: 'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)'; Diego Caviglia;
> > 'Steve
> > > Balls'; 'Ciena - Lyndon Ong';
> > > fu.xihua@zte.com.cn<mailto:fu.xihua@zte.com.cn>; 'NSN - Cyril
> > > Margaria'; 'Li Dan'; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; 'Tellabs - Jonathan
> > Sadler';
> > > Vallinayakam Somasundaram
> > > Subject: RE: Latest version of the OTN OSPF draft (support for
> multi-
> > > stage Vs Single Stage labels)
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > While we are making updates, let us discuss support required in
> link
> > > advertisement for single/multi-stage label options:
> > >
> > > Given that there is interest in both multi-stage label and single-
> > stage
> > > with H-LSPs, we should consider inclusion of a FLAG to indicate
> what
> > > the link is capable of.  This will address some of the issues we
> have
> > > discussed in the past relating to path computation involving NEs
> with
> > > different capabilities (inter-op).
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Rajan
> _______________________________________________
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From zhangfatai@huawei.com  Thu Jun 30 20:38:38 2011
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Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2011 11:37:05 +0800
From: Fatai Zhang <zhangfatai@huawei.com>
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To: "'Sadler, Jonathan B.'" <Jonathan.Sadler@tellabs.com>, 'Khuzema Pithewan' <kpithewan@infinera.com>, "'GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO	(PIETRO VITTORIO)'" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>, 'CCAMP' <ccamp@ietf.org>
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Cc: 'Ping Pan' <PPan@infinera.com>, 'Radhakrishna Valiveti' <rvaliveti@infinera.com>, 'Mohit Misra' <mmisra@infinera.com>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status
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Hi Jonathan and Khuzema,

=20

I fully agree with Jonathan about the advantages of H-LSP.

=20

For the following specious advantage of multi-stage labels from KP, I =
have
to repeat what I had said at Prague meeting:=20

An FA can be advertised as a component link of an existing link bundle =
(ie.,
No new TE links will be advertised), please see [RFC6107].

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

KP: Better scalability comes from the fact that, we do not have to =
advertise
H-LSP as FAs , hence reducing number of TE-Links in the network.

=20

=20

=20

=20

Thanks
=20
Fatai

=20

From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of
Sadler, Jonathan B.
Sent: 2011=C4=EA6=D4=C230=C8=D5 22:26
To: Khuzema Pithewan; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); 'CCAMP'
Cc: Ping Pan; Mohit Misra; Radhakrishna Valiveti
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status

=20

Hi Khuzema.

=20

See inline for my comments, marked with [JS].

=20

Jonathan Sadler

=20

-->8 SNIP 8<--

=20

I=A1=AFve looked at your interpretation of how the requirements =
you=A1=AFve stated
below are satisfied/not satisfied by the two drafts under consideration =
and
would like to ask you about two of your conclusions:

=20


Requirement

Draft-Zhang

Draft-Khuzema


R2

Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers

Supported without H-LSPs. Achieves scalability and better restoration
performance.

=20

You state that =A1=B0better=A1=B1 scalability and restoration =
performance is
achieved in Draft-Khuzema =A8C I interpret your statement this assuming =
that
under the H-LSP approach, any change of a service layer LSP requires a
change to both the service LSP as well as the lower layer LSP.  Please
validate my interpretation.

=20

KP: Better scalability comes from the fact that, we do not have to =
advertise
H-LSP as FAs , hence reducing number of TE-Links in the network. Better
restoration performance comes, as you correctly understood, we do not =
have
to create lower layer LSP, saving signaling time.

=20

[JS] I understand there is a reduction of routing information that comes
from not advertising the H-LSPs, though your assertion this helps
scalability seems to be assuming a specific routing approach (e.g.
distributed path computation dependent on a replicated distributed =
topology
database).  Other routing approaches (e.g. PCE) are not adversely =
affected.

=20

[JS] Independent of this, the choice to not advertise the fact that a =
lower
layer connection was established to support higher layer connections =
leads
to stranded capacity.  This has significant operational (and cost) =
impact to
network operators.  Under the H-LSP approach, the operator has the =
choice to
advertise or not for each H-LSP, thereby allowing for the operator to =
better
trade-off scalability concerns and resource utilization.

=20

Please also validate my understanding of the solution proposed in
draft-khuzema: it seems the solution proposed requires separate =
signaling
for each of the service LSPs to perform restoration.  In the case of an =
ODU3
full of ODU0s, this would be 32 LSPs with 32 separate signaling actions =
when
restoration is required.

=20

Under the H-LSP solution in draft-zhang, the same scenario of an ODU3 =
full
of ODU0s would require 33 LSPs (32 for the ODU0s and 1 for the ODU3).
However, explicitly signaling the ODU3 LSP makes it possible to have
restoration performed on the ODU3, benefiting all of the ODU0 LSPs with =
one
signaling action.  I therefore would expect the H-LSP solution to have
better restoration performance.

=20

KP: The Multi-stage label removes the necessity of single hop H-LSP.
Multi-stage label construct works in conjunction with H-LSP for the =
cases
when Lower layer ODU layer is required to be setup for multiple hops. =
That
is requirement# R6.

=20

Hence I assume when you are comparing multi-stage and H-LSP, you are =
talking
about single hop H-LSP. Since it is a single hop H-LSP, it has only one =
link
between 2 interfaces and hence there is no way it can restore, if link =
has
gone down. Now those 32 LSPs has to restore, and depending on the path =
they
find, it may involve mulit-stage or H-LSPs.

=20

[JS] Actually, I was considering the single hop case and signaling
restoration of traffic to a different link between two neighboring nodes
(the link could be within a bundle or otherwise).  Restoration certainly =
can
be done for the lower layer LSP as long as it goes between the same to
fabrics being connected by the original link.  And the upper layer LSPs
don=A1=AFt need to move as they all benefit from the restoration of the =
lower
layer LSP.

=20

[JS] Your discussion above though points out another benefit of the =
H-LSP
approach.  When restoration of a single-hop LSP requires going to a
multi-hop path, the H-LSP can again facilitate the reroute action with a
single signaling exchange between the nodes involved in the lower layer =
LSP.
The use of multi-stage labels requires separate signaling exchanges =
between
the same nodes, which can be a significantly higher number of messages.=20

=20

=20


Requirement

Draft-Zhang

Draft-Khuzema


R5

Not Supported

Supported

=20

R5 states a requirement for egress interface control, and your =
conclusions
above state it isn=A1=AFt possible to support this in draft-zhang and =
can be
supported in draft-khuzema.

=20

There are solutions that allow for egress control to be satisfied using
draft-zhang (e.g. assigning ifIndexes to potential H-LSPs defining the
intermediate ODUj =A8C these can then be specified in an ERO).  This =
approach
has the advantage of working with un-bundled as well as bundled egress
links, including bundles made up of links using different lower layer
speed/technologies (e.g. a bundle of OTU3 and ODU4)

=20

KP: draft-khuzema does it in single lsp setup (through signaling of =
course)
and hence avoid multiple manual steps to create those H-LSPs. Whatever =
can
be done through signaling can also be done manually. Draft-zhang relies =
on
manual steps, that=A1=AFs the reason of marking that requirement as Not
supported.

=20

[JS] I=A1=AFm not certain I understand the manual steps you are citing.  =
The
only thing required is the assignment of ifIndexes to the potential =
H-LSPs
and the establishment of the lower layer connections .  This can be done
automatically by equipment.

=20

Can you explain how the solution specified in draft-khuzema can handle
bundle links where different lower layer speeds are in use?

=20

KP: In the multi-stage label construct, we are not talking about links, =
the
construct is to identify data plane layer and their time slots. Bundling =
or
no-bundling, doesn=A1=AFt have any impact.

=20

[JS]  I disagree.  Egress label control requires the egress label format =
to
be known.  If the egress link has multiple links in a bundle of =
different
type (e.g. a bundle of OTU3 and OTU4), under the multi-stage label =
proposal,
the label format ends up changing if a resource is being specified on =
the
OTU3 link vs the OTU4 link.  Its inherent due to the different =
=A1=B0time slot=A1=B1
(sic) structure of the egress link.

=20

Thanks,

=20

Jonathan Sadler

=20

From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of
Khuzema Pithewan
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 11:23 PM
To: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); 'CCAMP'
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status

=20

Thanks Pietro and Sergio for starting this off.

=20

Hi CCampers,=20

=20

We would like to provide more context to multi-stage label approach for
better understanding.  OTN is inherently a hierarchical network, and =
there
are/will be cases where service ODU has to go through mandatory creation =
of
more than one layer because of various technical/economic reasons. We =
are
listing here requirements for supporting services over hierarchical OTN
network.

=20

1.      [R1] Support signaling mechanism to instantiate ODUj service =
layer
on a ODUk link via single stage muxing.=20

=20

A ODUj LSP could involve zero (j=3Dk) or one stage (j<k) multiplexing on =
a
given ODUk link. Here both Control-plane and Data-plane entities are =
created
for the ODUj service layer. ODUk link could be a point-to-point OTUk =
link or
a H-LSP.

=20

2.      [R2] Support signaling mechanism to instantiate one or more
intermediate layers on a ODUk link in order to support the ODUj service
layer.=20

=20

A ODUj LSP could involve two or more stage multiplexing on a given ODUk
link. These intermediate layers can be implicitly created as a part of =
ODUj
service LSP creation. In this case, both controlplane and dataplane =
entities
will be created for the ODUj service layer. However, intermediate ODU
layer(s) (implicitly created) will have dataplane representation only.=20

=20

3.      [R3] Support signaling mechanism to instantiate ODUj service =
layer
on a ODUk link where one or more intermediate ODU layers may be
pre-existing.=20

=20

A ODUj LSP could involve two or more stage multiplexing on a given ODUk
link. These intermediate layers may be pre-existing  as a result of =
another
LSP creation on the same ODU hierarchy or explicitly configured through
management interface.=20

=20

4.      [R4] Support signaling mechanism where ODUj service LSP creation =
may
involve varying mux hierarchies on each hop=20

=20

An end-to-end ODUj service LSP creation may involve zero or more stage =
ODU
multiplexing on every hop in the path. Basically,the scenarios discussed =
in
R1 to R3 could be associated with any of the hops involved. =20

=20

5.      [R5] Support signaling mechanism for egress control of OTN
interfaces=20

=20

An egress interface of a ODUj LSP could involve single or multiple stage
multiplexing. Egress Label sub-object defined in [RFC-4003] must be used =
to
signal hierarchical multiplexing information pertaining to the egress
interface of the LSP.  =20

=20

6.      [R6] Support signaling mechanism when ODUj service LSP creation
requires induced or manually created H-LSP.

=20

Based on the above requirements, following is the comparison between two
drafts under discussion.

=20

=20


Requirement

Draft-Zhang

Draft-Khuzema


R1

Supported

Supported


R2

Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers

Supported without H-LSPs. Achieves scalability and better restoration
performance.


R3

Supported using H-LSPs for each non-existing HO-ODU layers=20

Supported without H-LSPs


R4

Supported using H-LSPs for each HO-ODU layers

Supported without H-LSPs


R5

Not Supported

Supported


R6

Supported using H-LSP

Supported using H-LSP

=20

=20

Would like to hear opinions.

=20

Authors draft-khuzema

=20

=20

From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of
GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 6:53 PM
To: 'CCAMP'
Subject: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status

=20

Hello CCampers,

=20

Currently two drafts exist for the signaling of LSPs in OTN technology.

The two drafts, namely draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709 and=20

draft-khuzema-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709, contain a lot of similarities

but are fundamentally different with respect to the support of =
multi-stage
technology.

=20

Draft-zhang proposes to deal with multi-stage technology via the usage

of H-LSPs as already defined in RFC6107. With this approach all LSPs

belonging to intermediate layers of a hierarchy are signaled as separate
H-LSPs.

Monitoring, protection and restoration functionalities are applicable
independently to each LSP.=20

=20

Draft-khuzema proposes to introduce a new multi-stage label concept so =
that

a single construct contains labels associated to more then one =
hierarchical
level.

This implies that all level in the OTN  hierarchy with the exclusion of
service levels

are not visible as single LSPs.=20

Each layer cannot be independently monitored.

Only the service layer (the layer with the finest granularity) can be
protected or restored.

=20

Advantages and disadvantages of both approaches can be summarized in =
short,
telling that

the H-LSP approach is able to work in any situation while the =
multi-stage
label approach is suitable=20

on single hops or similar situations (reached signaling before an H-LSP)
but, when used,=20

optimizes processing.

=20

As such we perceive the Draft-khuzema approach as an optimization that =
could
be supported in an optional way.

=20

Before going on with merging of the two drafts we would like to hear
opinions from CCampers.   =20

=20

Pietro & Sergio

=20

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Pietro Vittorio Grandi

Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution

Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)

Tel: +39 039 686 4930

Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com

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(A. Einstein)

=20

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vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Hi Jonathan =
and Khuzema,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>I fully agree with Jonathan =
about the advantages of H-LSP.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>For the following specious =
advantage of multi-stage labels from KP, I have to repeat what I had =
said at Prague meeting: <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>An FA can be =
advertised as a component link of an existing link bundle (ie., No new =
TE links will be advertised), please see =
[RFC6107].<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#98480=
6'>KP: Better scalability comes from the fact that, we do not have to =
advertise H-LSP as FAs , hence reducing number of TE-Links in the =
network.</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Thanks<br>&nbsp;<br>Fatai</s=
pan><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>=
<div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>Sadler, Jonathan B.<br><b>Sent:</b> 2011</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5'>=C4=EA</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>6</span><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5'>=D4=C2</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>30</span><sp=
an =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5'>=C8=D5</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
22:26<br><b>To:</b> Khuzema Pithewan; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO =
VITTORIO); 'CCAMP'<br><b>Cc:</b> Ping Pan; Mohit Misra; Radhakrishna =
Valiveti<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts =
status<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Hi Khuzema.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>See inline for my comments, marked with [JS].<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Jonathan Sadler<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>--&gt;8 SNIP 8&lt;--<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I=A1=AFve looked at your interpretation of how the requirements =
you=A1=AFve stated below are satisfied/not satisfied by the two drafts =
under consideration and would like to ask you about two of your =
conclusions:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 =
cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D638 =
style=3D'width:478.8pt;border-collapse:collapse'><tr><td width=3D109 =
valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:81.9pt;border:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;background:#C4BC96;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Requirement<o:p></o:p></span=
></p></td><td width=3D222 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:166.5pt;border:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;border-left:none;background:#C4BC96;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm =
5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Draft-Zhang<o:p></o:p></span=
></p></td><td width=3D307 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:230.4pt;border:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;border-left:none;background:#C4BC96;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm =
5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Draft-Khuzema<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p></td></tr><tr><td width=3D109 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:81.9pt;border:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>R2<o:p></o:p></span></p></td=
><td width=3D222 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:166.5pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported using H-LSPs for =
each HO-ODU layers<o:p></o:p></span></p></td><td width=3D307 =
valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:230.4pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported without H-LSPs. =
Achieves scalability and better restoration =
performance.<o:p></o:p></span></p></td></tr></table><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>You state that =A1=B0better=A1=B1 scalability and restoration =
performance is achieved in Draft-Khuzema =A8C I interpret your statement =
this assuming that under the H-LSP approach, any change of a service =
layer LSP requires a change to both the service LSP as well as the lower =
layer LSP.&nbsp; Please validate my =
interpretation.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#98480=
6'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#98480=
6'>KP: Better scalability comes from the fact that, we do not have to =
advertise H-LSP as FAs , hence reducing number of TE-Links in the =
network. Better restoration performance comes, as you correctly =
understood, we do not have to create lower layer LSP, saving signaling =
time.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>[JS] I understand there is a reduction of routing information that =
comes from not advertising the H-LSPs, though your assertion this helps =
scalability seems to be assuming a specific routing approach (e.g. =
distributed path computation dependent on a replicated distributed =
topology database).&nbsp; Other routing approaches (e.g. PCE) are not =
adversely affected.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>[JS] Independent of this, the choice to not advertise the fact that a =
lower layer connection was established to support higher layer =
connections leads to stranded capacity.&nbsp; This has significant =
operational (and cost) impact to network operators.&nbsp; Under the =
H-LSP approach, the operator has the choice to advertise or not for each =
H-LSP, thereby allowing for the operator to better trade-off scalability =
concerns and resource utilization.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Please also validate my understanding of the solution proposed in =
draft-khuzema: it seems the solution proposed requires separate =
signaling for each of the service LSPs to perform restoration.&nbsp; In =
the case of an ODU3 full of ODU0s, this would be 32 LSPs with 32 =
separate signaling actions when restoration is =
required.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Under the H-LSP solution in draft-zhang, the same scenario of an ODU3 =
full of ODU0s would require 33 LSPs (32 for the ODU0s and 1 for the =
ODU3). However, explicitly signaling the ODU3 LSP makes it possible to =
have restoration performed on the ODU3, benefiting all of the ODU0 LSPs =
with one signaling action.&nbsp; I therefore would expect the H-LSP =
solution to have better restoration performance.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#98480=
6'>KP: The Multi-stage label removes the necessity of single hop H-LSP. =
Multi-stage label construct works in conjunction with H-LSP for the =
cases when Lower layer ODU layer is required to be setup for multiple =
hops. That is requirement# R6.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#98480=
6'>Hence I assume when you are comparing multi-stage and H-LSP, you are =
talking about single hop H-LSP. Since it is a single hop H-LSP, it has =
only one link between 2 interfaces and hence there is no way it can =
restore, if link has gone down. Now those 32 LSPs has to restore, and =
depending on the path they find, it may involve mulit-stage or =
H-LSPs.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>[JS] Actually, I was considering the single hop case and signaling =
restoration of traffic to a different link between two neighboring nodes =
(the link could be within a bundle or otherwise).&nbsp; Restoration =
certainly can be done for the lower layer LSP as long as it goes between =
the same to fabrics being connected by the original link.&nbsp; And the =
upper layer LSPs don=A1=AFt need to move as they all benefit from the =
restoration of the lower layer LSP.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>[JS] Your discussion above though points out another benefit of the =
H-LSP approach.&nbsp; When restoration of a single-hop LSP requires =
going to a multi-hop path, the H-LSP can again facilitate the reroute =
action with a single signaling exchange between the nodes involved in =
the lower layer LSP.&nbsp; The use of multi-stage labels requires =
separate signaling exchanges between the same nodes, which can be a =
significantly higher number of messages. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 =
cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D638 =
style=3D'width:478.8pt;border-collapse:collapse'><tr><td width=3D109 =
valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:81.9pt;border:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;background:#C4BC96;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Requirement<o:p></o:p></span=
></p></td><td width=3D222 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:166.5pt;border:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;border-left:none;background:#C4BC96;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm =
5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Draft-Zhang<o:p></o:p></span=
></p></td><td width=3D307 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:230.4pt;border:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;border-left:none;background:#C4BC96;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm =
5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Draft-Khuzema<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p></td></tr><tr><td width=3D109 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:81.9pt;border:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>R5<o:p></o:p></span></p></td=
><td width=3D222 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:166.5pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Not =
Supported<o:p></o:p></span></p></td><td width=3D307 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:230.4pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p></td></tr></table><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>R5 states a requirement for egress interface control, and your =
conclusions above state it isn=A1=AFt possible to support this in =
draft-zhang and can be supported in =
draft-khuzema.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>There are solutions that allow for egress control to be satisfied =
using draft-zhang (e.g. assigning ifIndexes to potential H-LSPs defining =
the intermediate ODUj =A8C these can then be specified in an ERO).&nbsp; =
This approach has the advantage of working with un-bundled as well as =
bundled egress links, including bundles made up of links using different =
lower layer speed/technologies (e.g. a bundle of OTU3 and =
ODU4)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#98480=
6'>KP: draft-khuzema does it in single lsp setup (through signaling of =
course) and hence avoid multiple manual steps to create those H-LSPs. =
Whatever can be done through signaling can also be done manually. =
Draft-zhang relies on manual steps, that=A1=AFs the reason of marking =
that requirement as Not supported.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>[JS] I=A1=AFm not certain I understand the manual steps you are =
citing.&nbsp; The only thing required is the assignment of ifIndexes to =
the potential H-LSPs and the establishment of the lower layer =
connections .&nbsp; This can be done automatically by =
equipment.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Can you explain how the solution specified in draft-khuzema can =
handle bundle links where different lower layer speeds are in =
use?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#98480=
6'>KP: In the multi-stage label construct, we are not talking about =
links, the construct is to identify data plane layer and their time =
slots. Bundling or no-bundling, doesn=A1=AFt have any =
impact.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>[JS]&nbsp; I disagree.&nbsp; Egress label control requires the egress =
label format to be known.&nbsp; If the egress link has multiple links in =
a bundle of different type (e.g. a bundle of OTU3 and OTU4), under the =
multi-stage label proposal, the label format ends up changing if a =
resource is being specified on the OTU3 link vs the OTU4 link.&nbsp; Its =
inherent due to the different =A1=B0time slot=A1=B1 (sic) structure of =
the egress link.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Jonathan Sadler<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>Khuzema Pithewan<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 27, 2011 11:23 =
PM<br><b>To:</b> GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); =
'CCAMP'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts =
status<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Thanks Pietro =
and Sergio for starting this off.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Hi CCampers, =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>We would like to provide =
more context to multi-stage label approach for better =
understanding.&nbsp; OTN is inherently a hierarchical network, and there =
are/will be cases where service ODU has to go through mandatory creation =
of more than one layer because of various technical/economic reasons. We =
are listing here requirements for supporting services over hierarchical =
OTN network.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if =
!supportLists]><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;background:silver;mso-highligh=
t:silver'>[R1]</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'> Support signaling mechanism =
to instantiate ODUj service layer on a ODUk link via single stage =
muxing. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'>A ODUj LSP could involve =
zero (j=3Dk) or one stage (j&lt;k) multiplexing on a given ODUk link. =
Here both Control-plane and Data-plane entities are created for the ODUj =
service layer. ODUk link could be a point-to-point OTUk link or a =
H-LSP.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;background:silver;mso-highligh=
t:silver'>[R2]</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'> Support signaling mechanism =
to instantiate one or more intermediate layers on a ODUk link in order =
to support the ODUj service layer. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'>A ODUj LSP could involve two =
or more stage multiplexing on a given ODUk link. These intermediate =
layers can be implicitly created as a part of ODUj service LSP creation. =
In this case, both controlplane and dataplane entities will be created =
for the ODUj service layer. However, intermediate ODU layer(s) =
(implicitly created) will have dataplane representation only. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>3.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;background:silver;mso-highligh=
t:silver'>[R3]</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'> Support signaling mechanism =
to instantiate ODUj service layer on a ODUk link where one or more =
intermediate ODU layers may be pre-existing. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'>A ODUj LSP could involve two =
or more stage multiplexing on a given ODUk link. These intermediate =
layers may be pre-existing&nbsp; as a result of another LSP creation on =
the same ODU hierarchy or explicitly configured through management =
interface. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>4.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;background:silver;mso-highligh=
t:silver'>[R4]</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'> Support signaling mechanism =
where ODUj service LSP creation may involve varying mux hierarchies on =
each hop <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'>An end-to-end ODUj service =
LSP creation may involve zero or more stage ODU multiplexing on every =
hop in the path. Basically,the scenarios discussed in R1 to R3 could be =
associated with any of the hops involved.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>5.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;background:silver;mso-highligh=
t:silver'>[R5]</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'> Support signaling mechanism =
for egress control of OTN interfaces <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'>An egress interface of a =
ODUj LSP could involve single or multiple stage multiplexing. Egress =
Label sub-object defined in [RFC-4003] must be used to signal =
hierarchical multiplexing information pertaining to the egress interface =
of the LSP.&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>6.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;background:silver;mso-highligh=
t:silver'>[R6]</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%'> Support signaling mechanism =
when ODUj service LSP creation requires induced or manually created =
H-LSP.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Based on the above =
requirements, following is the comparison between two drafts under =
discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 =
cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D638 =
style=3D'width:478.8pt;border-collapse:collapse'><tr><td width=3D109 =
valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:81.9pt;border:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;background:#C4BC96;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Requirement<o:p></o:p></span=
></p></td><td width=3D222 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:166.5pt;border:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;border-left:none;background:#C4BC96;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm =
5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Draft-Zhang<o:p></o:p></span=
></p></td><td width=3D307 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:230.4pt;border:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;border-left:none;background:#C4BC96;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm =
5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Draft-Khuzema<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p></td></tr><tr><td width=3D109 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:81.9pt;border:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>R1<o:p></o:p></span></p></td=
><td width=3D222 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:166.5pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p></td><td width=3D307 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:230.4pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p></td></tr><tr><td width=3D109 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:81.9pt;border:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>R2<o:p></o:p></span></p></td=
><td width=3D222 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:166.5pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported using H-LSPs for =
each HO-ODU layers<o:p></o:p></span></p></td><td width=3D307 =
valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:230.4pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported without H-LSPs. =
Achieves scalability and better restoration =
performance.<o:p></o:p></span></p></td></tr><tr><td width=3D109 =
valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:81.9pt;border:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>R3<o:p></o:p></span></p></td=
><td width=3D222 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:166.5pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported using H-LSPs for =
each non-existing HO-ODU layers <o:p></o:p></span></p></td><td =
width=3D307 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:230.4pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported without =
H-LSPs<o:p></o:p></span></p></td></tr><tr><td width=3D109 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:81.9pt;border:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>R4<o:p></o:p></span></p></td=
><td width=3D222 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:166.5pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported using H-LSPs for =
each HO-ODU layers<o:p></o:p></span></p></td><td width=3D307 =
valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:230.4pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported without =
H-LSPs<o:p></o:p></span></p></td></tr><tr><td width=3D109 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:81.9pt;border:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>R5<o:p></o:p></span></p></td=
><td width=3D222 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:166.5pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Not =
Supported<o:p></o:p></span></p></td><td width=3D307 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:230.4pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p></td></tr><tr><td width=3D109 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:81.9pt;border:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>R6<o:p></o:p></span></p></td=
><td width=3D222 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:166.5pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported using =
H-LSP<o:p></o:p></span></p></td><td width=3D307 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:230.4pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:sol=
id windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm =
5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Supported using =
H-LSP<o:p></o:p></span></p></td></tr></table><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Would like to hear =
opinions.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Authors =
draft-khuzema<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, =
June 27, 2011 6:53 PM<br><b>To:</b> 'CCAMP'<br><b>Subject:</b> [CCAMP] =
OTN signalling drafts status<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Hello =
CCampers,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Currently =
two drafts exist for the signaling of LSPs in OTN =
technology.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>The two =
drafts, namely draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709 and =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>draft-khuzem=
a-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709, contain a lot of =
similarities<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>but are =
fundamentally different with respect to the support of multi-stage =
technology.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Draft-zhang =
proposes to deal with multi-stage technology via the =
usage<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>of H-LSPs =
as already defined in RFC6107. With this approach all =
LSPs<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>belonging =
to intermediate layers of a hierarchy are signaled as separate =
H-LSPs.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Monitoring, =
protection and restoration functionalities are applicable independently =
to each LSP. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Draft-khuzem=
a proposes to introduce a new multi-stage label concept so =
that<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>a single =
construct contains labels associated to more then one hierarchical =
level.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>This =
implies that all level in the OTN&nbsp; hierarchy with the exclusion of =
service levels<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>are not =
visible as single LSPs. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Each layer =
cannot be independently monitored.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Only the =
service layer (the layer with the finest granularity) can be protected =
or restored.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Advantages =
and disadvantages of both approaches can be summarized in short, telling =
that<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>the H-LSP =
approach is able to work in any situation while the multi-stage label =
approach is suitable <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>on single =
hops or similar situations (reached signaling before an H-LSP) but, when =
used, <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>optimizes =
processing.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>As such we =
perceive the Draft-khuzema approach as an optimization that could be =
supported in an optional way.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Before =
going on with merging of the two drafts we would like to hear opinions =
from CCampers.&nbsp; &nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Pietro =
&amp; Sergio<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Pietro =
Vittorio Grandi</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Terrestrial =
Optics Portfolio Evolution</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Alcatel-Lucen=
t Vimercate (Italy)</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Tel: +39 039 =
686 4930</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Mail: =
pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Put your =
hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sit with a =
pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a&nbsp; minute. That's =
relativity.</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>(A. =
Einstein)</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet =
MS","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US><br></span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'>=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>The information contained in this message =
may be privileged<br>and confidential and protected from disclosure. If =
the reader<br>of this message is not the intended recipient, or an =
employee<br>or agent responsible for delivering this message to =
the<br>intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any =
reproduction,<br>dissemination or distribution of this communication is =
strictly<br>prohibited. If you have received this communication in =
error,<br>please notify us immediately by replying to the message =
and<br>deleting it from your computer. Thank you. =
Tellabs<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><br></span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'>=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>The information contained in this message =
may be privileged<br>and confidential and protected from disclosure. If =
the reader<br>of this message is not the intended recipient, or an =
employee<br>or agent responsible for delivering this message to =
the<br>intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any =
reproduction,<br>dissemination or distribution of this communication is =
strictly<br>prohibited. If you have received this communication in =
error,<br>please notify us immediately by replying to the message =
and<br>deleting it from your computer. Thank you. =
Tellabs<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></body></html>=

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Cc: 'Ping Pan' <PPan@infinera.com>, 'CCAMP' <ccamp@ietf.org>, 'Mohit Misra' <mmisra@infinera.com>, 'Radhakrishna Valiveti' <rvaliveti@infinera.com>, ccamp-bounces@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] OTN signalling drafts status
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