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From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] FW:  I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-12.txt
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> Lou and Deborah, do you have any suggestion on this issue?

Young,
	32 bit identifiers are fairly common on routers/IP-based control
systems, and lots of implementations understand how to generate such
identifiers in a dynamic and platform-relevant fashion.  My *personal*
opinion is that unless there's a good reason to not use the norm, i.e.,
32-bit identifiers, they should be used.  Keep in mind that the
identifiers in question are in the control plane (where bits are less
precious).

BTW I see this issue as much less important than ensuring that the
solution can work across graceful restarts.

Lou

On 9/28/2011 5:47 PM, Leeyoung wrote:
> Hi Cyril,
> 
> Thanks for your review and suggestions. It looks like there are two issues pending: Point #2 and #3. 
> We can close the rest of the points you raised with the action specified in-line. Please let me know otherwise. 
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Young
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:cyril.margaria@nsn.com] 
> Sent: Monday, September 26, 2011 10:59 AM
> To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] FW: I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-12.txt
> 
> 
> Hi, 
> I have the following comments on  draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-12
> after it being updated and in light of the WG discussions:
> 
> 1) section 3.1. Resource Block Set Field:
>    The information model indicates that the resource block set is
> optional for the  "Resource Block Information", hence the text should be
> modified as follow:
> "0 - Inclusive List
> 
>      Indicates that the TLV contains zero or more RB elements that are
>      included in the list."
> 
> YOUNG>> Will do in the next revision. (Closure) 
> 
> 2) section 3.1. Resource Block Set Field:
> RB Identifier: as stated in section "3. Resources, Blocks, Sets, and the
> Resource Pool", Resources and Resource Blocks are related to interface
> cards.
> 
> GMPLS implementations are using 32-bit unnumbered interface IDs to
> identify GMPLS links and also the corresponding physical resources.
> OEO devices and, in the context of this document, resource or resource
> group can also be identified by 32-bit unnumbered interface IDs.
> 
>  From an implementation point of view, having 16-bit resource block IDs
> have several drawbacks because of the following points:
>   a) Mapping exists between physical resource and unnumbered interface
> IDs, this mapping is generally known by management system,
>       introducing a different ID space is not optimal (new mapping
> needed);
>   b) Those OEOs might be used as links in a multi-node model, thus being
> identified by a 32-bit unnumbered interface IDs, introducing another
> space is also not optimal.
> 
> Therefore, it would be better if the resource block IDs were 32-bit
> interface IDs (to be unique within the node, not because they are
> representing links in this document).
> 
> YOUNG>> The only motivation why we used 16 bits for RB ID is to reduce the space. And I think this is an internal link so it is not the real interface per se and thus there is no need to keep track of the state of RB ID like other legitimate interfaces. I don't think there is a substantial implementation issue here whether we use 16 bits or 32 bits, but if there is a strong support to use 32 bit ID over 16 bit ID, I am fine with this. Lou and Deborah, do you have any suggestion on this issue? Or other implementers? 
> 
> 
> 3) section 3.1. Resource Block Set Field Why not define a bit set 
> action, similar to the label set?
> 
> YOUNG>> Are you referring the Label Set encoding as follows from draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-05.txt
> 
>   0                   1                   2                   3 
>       0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 
>      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ 
>      | Action|    Num Labels         |          Length               | 
>      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ 
>      |                          Base Label                           | 
>      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ 
>      |     Additional fields as necessary per action                 |
> 
> 
> The current Resource Block Set Field is encoded as follows:
> 
>   0                   1                   2                   3 
>        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 
>       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ 
>       |    Action     |E|C| Reserved  |        Length                 | 
>       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ 
>       |     RB Identifier 1           |        RB Identifier 2        | 
>       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ 
>       :                               :                               : 
>       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ 
>       |     RB Identifier n-1         |        RB Identifier n        | 
>       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> 
> YOUNG>> Can you be specific about your suggestion? Are you concerned about label being 32 bit vs RB identifier being 16 bits? --- then this is basically related to your point #2. If you have other concerns, please spell them out (e.g., action field (4 bits vs 8 bits), etc..) The Num Labels field is necessary when we are indicating bit maps (Action = 4), which Is not needed for Resource Block Set; E bit is not necessary when we adopt 32 bit RB ID, but C bit is needed to indicate the connectivity nature of Resource Pool Accessibility. 
> 
> YOUNG>> Would the following encoding is what you are envisioning? If not, please suggest in detail. 
> 
>   0                   1                   2                   3 
>        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 
>       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ 
>       | Action|C|                     |        Length                 | 
>       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ 
>       |                         RB Identifier 1                       | 
>       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ 
>       :                               :                               : 
>       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ 
>       |                         RB Identifier n                       | 
>       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4) section 4.3. Resource Pool State Sub-TLV
> 
> The RB state refers to the number of available resources within the 
> resource block, the first sentence mentions the resource pool only.
> In addition, a bit map can be used even in case the resource block
> contains several resources.
> The following text tries to reflect this, please consider it.
> 
>     "The state of the pool is given by the number of resources available
>     with particular characteristics. A resource block set is used to
>     encode all or a subset of the resources of interest. The usage state
>     of resources within a resource block set is encoded as either a list
>     of 16-bit integer values, indicating the number of available
> resources
>     in the resource block, or a map of bits, indicating whether a
> particular
>     resource is available or not."
> 
> YOUNG>> Thanks. This is fine. Will add as you suggested in the revision (Closure)
> 
> 
> 5) section 4.3. Resource Pool State Sub-TLV
>    Typo: "RB Usage state:  Variable Length but must be a multiple of 4 
> bytes." (byes->bytes)
> 
> YOUNG>>  Thanks. Will do s/byes/bytes in Section 4.3 (Closure)
> 
> 6) section 5.1. Resource Block Information Sub-TLV
> 
> Having an Input Modulation Type List sub-sub-TLV containing a list of 
> modulation formats (with an input-output bit) and an Output Modulation 
> Type List sub-sub-TLV containing a list of modulation formats (with an
> input-output bit) seems redundant because the bit I already indicates if
> it is an output or input modulation format.
> 
> Having a single Modulation Type List sub-sub-TLV is providing the same
> information with an efficient encoding, a single sub-sub-TLV type should
> be used.
> 
> Same reasoning apply to the FEC Type List Sub-Sub-TLV.
> 
> YOUNG>> I guess what you are suggesting is as follows: 
> 
>     0                   1                   2                   3 
>        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 
>       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ 
>       |                     RB Set Field                              | 
>       :                                                               : 
>       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ 
>       |I|E|                      Reserved                             | 
>       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ 
>       |           Modulation Type List Sub-Sub-TLV  (opt)             | 
>       :                                                               : 
>       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ 
>       |           FEC Type List Sub-Sub-TLV    (opt)                  | 
>       :                                                               : 
>       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ 
>       |         Input Client Signal Type Sub-Sub-TLV      (opt)       | 
>       :                                                               : 
>       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ 
>       |         Input Bit Rate Range List  Sub-Sub-TLV (opt)          | 
>       :                                                               : 
>       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ 
>       |         Processing Capabilities List Sub-Sub-TLV (opt)        | 
>       :                                                               : 
>       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ 
> 
> 
> YOUNG>> If that's what you suggested, that is fine with me. If that is that case, I will revise with this figure in the revision. (Closure) 
> 
> 
> 7) section 5.1. Resource Block Information Sub-TLV
>   Add the following text: "The order of sub-sub-TLVs does not matter,
> the sub-sub-TLVs MAY be in any order."
> 
> YOUNG>> Thanks. This will be added in the revision (Closure)
> 
> 
> Best Regards, 
> Cyril Margaria
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>> Of ext Leeyoung
>> Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 11:30 PM
>> To: ccamp@ietf.org
>> Subject: [CCAMP] FW: I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-12.txt
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> This update (version 12) includes the following:
>>
>> (i) Replaced all instances of "ingress" with "input" and all instances
>> of "egress" with "output".
>> (ii) Added clarifying text on relationship between resource block
> model
>> and physical entities such as line cards.
>>
>> This draft is now very mature and incorporated all the comments raised
>> in the mailing list and the last meetings.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Young
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>> Of internet-drafts@ietf.org
>> Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 4:20 PM
>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
>> Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-12.txt
>>
>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>> directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and
>> Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.
>>
>> 	Title           : Routing and Wavelength Assignment Information
>> Model for Wavelength Switched Optical Networks
>> 	Author(s)       : Young Lee
>>                           Greg M. Bernstein
>>                           Dan Li
>>                           Wataru Imajuku
>> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-12.txt
>> 	Pages           : 27
>> 	Date            : 2011-09-09
>>
>>    This document provides a model of information needed by the routing
>>    and wavelength assignment (RWA) process in wavelength switched
>>    optical networks (WSONs).  The purpose of the information described
>>    in this model is to facilitate constrained lightpath computation in
>>    WSONs. This model takes into account compatibility constraints
>>    between WSON signal attributes and network elements but does not
>>    include constraints due to optical impairments. Aspects of this
>>    information that may be of use to other technologies utilizing a
>>    GMPLS control plane are discussed.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-12.txt
>>
>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>
>> This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-12.txt
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> 
> 
> 
> 

From lberger@labn.net  Sat Oct  1 05:31:19 2011
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] R:  Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
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Pietro and Sergio,
	See below for responses in-line.

On 9/29/2011 4:48 AM, GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO) wrote:
> Hello Lou,
> 
> we try to make further clarification, with a long explanation in line ( sorry for this :-))
> 
> Pietro and Sergio
> 
> ============================================
> Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
> ============================================
> Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
> Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute. That's relativity.
> (A. Einstein)
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net] 
> Sent: mercoled 28 settembre 2011 17.37
> To: BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)
> Cc: CCAMP; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> Subject: Re: R: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
> 
> 
> Sergio and Pietro,
> 
> It sounds like we should get in-sync on where TSG information is needed
> first then talk about how to carry it.  So, I said:
> 
>> As I understand it, TSG is needed at:
>>   (a) the endpoints that terminate the signal/LSP to ensure proper
>>       adaptation.
>>   (b) the 2nd and penultimate hops to ensure the proper
>>       interface/H-LSP selection.
>>   (c) Intermediate nodes for proper TS allocation.
>>
> 
>>From your mail, I infer that you agree on (a) and (b).  Is this correct?
> [[ALU]] We agree on (a) and (b). 

Good.  To me, as I mentioned in my first mail on this thread, this means
that G-PID isn't the right place to carry this information.

On 9/27/2011 9:20 AM, Lou Berger wrote:
    Option 1, G-PID, is really designed to support end-point client
    adaptation, so as an end-point only field it really only supports
    need (a), so I don't think G-PID is the right place to indicate TSG.

Of course this doesn't answer where is the right/best place.

> 
> WRT to (c) you said:
>> [ALU] Item (c) is not correct. Intermediate nodes do not need to
> demultiplex client, you can have ODU0 LSPs , that surely need to have
> 1,25 interfaces in the end points but using 2.5 TSG in the middle of the
> network since they have tunneled on 2.5 structured containers.
>>
>>
> 
> I'm having a hard time parsing your statement.  Are you saying (i) you
> client ODU0 carried over an ODUn (n>0) H-LSP or (ii) and ODU0 which is
> carried over links OTUn links and 2.5G slots in the intermediate links,
> or (iii) something completely different.
>  
> [[ALU]] We think that the better way to understand the problem is
> having in mind a reference model composed by:
> 
> A) The current LSP that we are drawing. 
> 
> B) The server resources used by the current LSP. These resources can
> be different link by link. The server resources can be represented in
> control plane either by TE-link or FA-LSP. When the server capacity
> is higher then the capacity of the current LSP (we mean not at the
> same rate of the client) , the server is structured and the current
> LSP is adapted in the server using 1.25 or 2.5 tributary slots
> depending from the capability of both the endpoints of the server.

So, unless I'm misunderstanding you, the "link by link server resources"
is the same as "[need] (c) Intermediate nodes", which we've agreed
depends on the capabilities of the nodes at the end of the links/FA-LSPs.

I believe your additional point, is that the TSG of the "current LSP" is
immaterial at intermediate nodes.  correct?

> 
> C) A resource that is a client of the current LSP. This client can either be
> an ODU or use a different technology. 
> 
> If the client in point c) is an ODU (or better a set of ODUs at
> different rates) then the current LSP will have (in future) to be
> structured in such a way that the ODU client(s) will be carried. In
> order to ensure that a client can be set two things must happen at
> the endpoint of the current LSP. 
>
> The first one is that both endpoints
> declare the same set of clients, and the second is that both endpoint
> can support the same tributary slot granularity. Note that it is not
> possible to infer the tributary slot granularity from the
> client-server hierarchies declared by a TE-link. Just to make an
> example, take a TE-link that declares to support ODU2 over ODU3, ODU2
> can be mapped over ODU3 either using 2.5 or 1.25 tributary slots. 

This was need (a) in my original mail, correct?

> To
> complicate things, it is not always true that an interface supporting
> 1.25 tributary slots can also support 2.5 tributary slots, because
> this specific functionality (known as fallback support setting
> auto-payload flag to ON) can be either not present in HW or disabled
> by NMS.
> 

Well this is something I didn't have in my original mail.  It was my
understanding from previous discussions, that fallback support was a
required in G.709-v3.  If it is optional (either in implementation or in
operation) we need to ensure that both cases (1.25 + 2.5 support, or
just 1.25 support) are fully covered.

> In conclusion to this reasoning, when we signal the current LSP (of
> point A) we need to transfer two information: The desired tributary
> slot granularity that the current LSP will export to future clients
> and the set of clients (point C) that has to be supported (if
> known). The desired tributary slot granularity to be exported to
> future clients directly affects the adaptation that will be
> instantiated when drawing a client. The desired tributary slot
> granularity is the entity that we are debating. 

Agreed, this was "need (a)" in my original mail.

> Note that the desired
> tributary slot granularity for client does not affect the label
> signaled for the current LSP. These labels are only affected by the
> tributary slot granularity exported by the server that is carrying
> the current LSP.
>
> Last but not least, note that the tributary slot granularity is not 
> part of current LSP in the sense that does not exist an ODU2 at 1.25
> TS and does not exist an ODU2 at 2.5 TS. It only exist an ODU2 at a
> nominal rate mapped over a higher rate server using 2.5 or 1.25 TS.
> 

Humm, while this is the case for ODU2, what about ODUflex and ODU0?

> 
> 
>> Either way, isn't the case that it would be optimal to use 1.25 TSs for
>> certain ODUs (e.g., OD0, ODUFlex) on transit links when both ends of the
>> link support 1.25?
> 
> [[ALU]] Tributary Slots were originally introduced in order to avoid
> link defragmentation. They started at 2.5 that was correct for all
> ODUs (at that time) and following it was introduced 1.25 in order to
> better accommodate GbEthernet client (into ODU0 at 1,25) and also
> ODU-flex (CBR) .
> 
> ODU0 and ODU flex MUST be mapped over their server at 1.25. Just to
> make an example let's take an ODU0 LSP that has to be carried over an
> ODU2 LSP that in turn is mapped over several ODU3 LSPs.
> 
> When signaling the ODU2 LSP we must ensure that at the endpoints the
> ODU2 LSP supports at the endpoints the 1.25 TS granularity. There is
> no need (and it is not an optimization) to force the ODU2 LSP to use
> ODU3 LSPs that export 1.25 TS.
> 

Right.  Unless I misunderstand you, you're saying and I agree that at
the mapping point between the ODU0 LSP and the ODU2 LSP, the ODU2 LSP
must be able to support the proper, 1.25, TSG.  Assuming this is correct
this may be at an intermediate node in the network, which was my
original "need (c)".   So we're back to a seeming agreement on all three
needs.

> 
> You also said:
>> [ALU] In the INFO we have explained the need also for TSG in routing
>> (following conclusion of mailing list discussion) and the routing
>> draft simply proposes a possible encoding of the information.
>>
>> This solution, for the sake of truth, can be getting better, taking
>> into account the AutoPayloadtype flag information. This information
>> is a typical MI information , described in in G.798, and it simply
>> tells us whether Fallback procedure is enabled or not.
>>
>> Since this information is typically configured by the manager we do
>> not think it has to be considered directly in the control plane
>> (neither signaled or advertised ). However we have to take into
>> account the fact that auto-payload type set to off generates
>> interfaces that can support 1.25 TSG only.
>>
> 
>> Okay, now I'm really confused.  This seems to imply that you are saying
>> the (c) above is needed.  What am I missing?
> 
> [[ALU]] the advertising of TS information in routing is coming from
> the requirement found in ITU-T's G.7715.1 stating the need for links
> to advertise the adaptations supported by a link end (i.e. TE-Link
> end). As said before TS size is an adaptation attribute. When the
> TE-Link advertisement (whether a TE-Link created by an FA or a
> TE-Link that uses a physical link) includes details related to TSG,
> it is possible for routing to validate the compatibility of the
> endpoints with the service requested. 

100% agreed. Note that G-PID really isn't typically used as part of
route/path computation today.

> This has nothing to do with
> point c of your statement that would imply always along the path to
> have only one type of TS size.

I don't think I ever made this statement or intended this implication.
Perhaps you can suggest a rewording of "need (c)".

So, it seems we all agree that TSG information is needed in both
signaling and routing.  Can we also agree that G-PID isn't the right
place for this information?

Lou

> 
> Much thanks,
> Lou
> 
> 
> On 9/28/2011 8:02 AM, BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO) wrote:
>> Hi Lou,
>>
>> Please see in line .
>>
>> BR
>>
>> Sergio and Pietro
>>
>>
>> -----Messaggio originale-----
>> Da: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] Per conto di Lou Berger
>> Inviato: marted 27 settembre 2011 15.20
>> A: CCAMP
>> Oggetto: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
>>
>> All / G.709 draft authors,
>>
>> 	We have a few slightly unaligned proposals on where to indicate the
>> [G.709-v3] Tributary Slot Granularity:
>>
>>
>>
>> 1: G-PID
>>     draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model-01 says:
>>     One possible solution is the G-PID field of the GENERALIZED LABEL
>>     REQUEST Object.
>>
>> [ALU]What inserted in the INFO draft , is the result of the discussion made in July on the subject, in the mailing , taking into account suggestion and comments coming from John, Jonathan and others participating at the discussion.
>> Our opinion is that the ending draft for signaling should be aligned to the info model draft incorporating the required changes to GPID. The motivations behind our opinion can be better understood reading the other comments.
>>
>> 2: A new field:
>>    draft-ceccarelli-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709-07 says:
>>       - TSG: Tributary Slot Granularity (2bit): Used for the
>>       advertisement of the supported Tributary Slot granularity
>> [ALU] In the INFO we have explained the need also for TSG in routing (following conclusion of mailing list discussion) and the routing draft simply proposes a possible encoding of the information.
>> This solution, for the sake of truth, can be getting better, taking into account the AutoPayloadtype flag information. This information is a typical MI information , described in in G.798, and it simply tells us whether Fallback procedure is enabled or not. 
>> Since this information is typically configured by the manager we do not think it has to be considered directly in the control plane (neither signaled or advertised ). However we have to take into account the fact that
>> auto-payload type set to off generates interfaces that can support 1.25 TSG only. 
>>
>> This fact can be incorporated in routing by adding a new meaning in the two bits encodings:
>>
>>          - 00 - 1.25 Gbps (AutoPayloadtype off)
>>
>>          - 01 - 1.25 Gbps (AutoPayloadType on)
>>
>>          - 10 - 2.5 Gbps 
>>
>>          - 11 - Reserved
>>
>>
>> 3: Implicitly:
>>    draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709-09 doesn't explicitly
>>    signal TSG, but rather has it implied in the new ODU label.
>>
>> [ALU] There is nothing implicitly. The reality is that at the moment signaling draft does not address the problem . What you consider as "implicitly deduced" is in fact the TSG granularity with which the client is mapped in the server ODUk/OTUK or FA/H-LSP. What has to be clarified is that what we need to signal is an adaptation information regarding what the server can expose to the client regarding TS granularity capability. 
>> TS size is an attribute of the adaptation used to put an ODUj into an ODUk.
>> What you consider as implicit is just how ODUj is mapped into ODUk, but the problem is to signal ODUk with the correct adaptation attribute.
>>
>> Some other alternatives include:
>>
>> 4: GMPLS Encoding
>>    Currently used to indicate G.709 (which is also what the Switch
>>    cap essentially indicates) An alternative would use:
>>       12              G.709 ODUk (Digital Path, 2.5G)[RFC4328]
>>       TBA (e.g., 15)  G.709 ODUk (Digital Path, 1.25G)
>>
>>    In routing, 15 would imply support for both 1.25 and 2.5G, as
>>    support for both by 1.25 capable interfaces is required by
>>    [G.709-v3]. (At least as I understand it.)
>>
>> [ALU] Encoding field should define the nature of the LSP : RFC 4328 defined two OTN new values G.709 ODUk (Digital Path) and G.709 Optical Channel. We do not see any reason to link encoding with information that would need to choose interfaces (as TSG) since the "nature " of LSP does not change dependently of the usage of 1.25 or 2.5 ODUk tributary slot.
>>
>> 5: Signal Type
>>    Carried in routing ISCD/SCSI and signaling traffic parameters.
>>    Could enumerate all ODUx types to indicate either 1.25G or 2.5G.
>>    Existing types indicate 2.5G, new types would need to be enumerated
>>    for the new 1.25 and 2.5 types.  Hereto, the 1.25 types would imply
>>    support for both 1.25 and 2.5 types in routing.
>>
>> [ALU] During the discussion in July the usage of Signal Type was one of the first possibilities analyzed. We definitely leave out signal type for the reason above regarding adaptation information.
>> TS granularity is an information that server LSP has to expose to client LSP. What is related to the client is conveyed in the G-PID not in the Signal Type . 
>> There are no different Signal Type for the same ODU in OTN: e.g. ODU2 it is the same , what can change is the adaptation attribute towards client (e.g. 1.25 or 2.5 TSG for ODU1 client). 
>>
>> As I understand it, TSG is needed at:
>>   (a) the endpoints that terminate the signal/LSP to ensure proper
>>       adaptation.
>>   (b) the 2nd and penultimate hops to ensure the proper
>>       interface/H-LSP selection.
>>   (c) Intermediate nodes for proper TS allocation.
>>
>> [ALU] Item (c) is not correct. Intermediate nodes do not need to demultiplex client, you can have ODU0 LSPs , that surely need to have 1,25 interfaces in the end points but using 2.5 TSG in the middle of the network since they have tunneled on 2.5 structured containers. 
>>
>>
>>
>> It seems to me that we have enough existing fields in GMPLS (for G.709)
>> that we should consider these before introducing new ones.  Of the
>> existing fields, we have 1, 4 and 5.:
>>
>>    Option 1, G-PID, is really designed to support end-point client
>>    adaptation, so as an end-point only field it really only supports
>>    need (a), so I don't think G-PID is the right place to indicate TSG.
>>
>> [ALU] G-PID is the correct place :
>>  1) It contains information related to client of an LSP that is exactly what we need.
>> 2) As reported in RFC 3471 " This is used by the nodes at the endpoints of the LSP, and in some cases by the penultimate hop." We are exactly in these "some cases"
>>
>>    Option 4, Encoding, is used to support (a) and (b)-type checks in
>>    GMPLS, but not (c).  So, while this field is definitely a better
>>    place than G-PID to indicate TSG, it doesn't satisfy all the needs.
>>
>>    Option 5, Signal Type, is used to support all needs.
>>
>> [ALU] Already commented why not the right places.
>>
>> Given all this, I'd like to propose that we use Option 5, Signal Type,
>> to indicate TSG, and that this be reflected in the relevant WG drafts.
>> (Authors, let me know if you'd like specific text proposals.)
>>
>> Comments?
>>
>> Much thanks,
>> Lou (as WG contributor)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 
> 

From nurit.sprecher@nsn.com  Sat Oct  1 10:44:01 2011
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Support both


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of ext Lou Berger
> Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2011 6:32 PM
> To: CCAMP
> Subject: [CCAMP] Poll on making G.709 Routing and Signaling drafts
> WGdocuments
>=20
> This message starts a two week poll on making the documents listed
> below ccamp working group documents.  Please send a mail to the
mailing
> list indicating "yes/support to both" or "no/do not support either".
> Of course, you may also support one but not the other.  (We will
assume
> that you support/object to both if you don't specify.)
>=20
> If indicating no, please state your technical reservations with the
> document.
>=20
> The documents being polled are:
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ceccarelli-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709-07
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709-09
>=20
> The poll ends Wednesday October 12.
>=20
> Please also bear in mind that WG adoption does not signify that work
is
> complete on the documents or that the technical details are fixed, but
> rather that further development of the documents will take place based
> on WG process.
>=20
> Much thanks,
> Lou (and Deborah)
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
_______________________________________________
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From: "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)" <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>
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Subject: [CCAMP] R: R:  Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
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Lou,

We captured essential parts of your mail to avoid proliferation of nesting.

We think that we are converging:
1) we have proposed a solution for routing as all agreed TSG information is=
 needed
2) there are two possible alternatives for signaling as detailed below.

See response details in correspondence of the snip.

BR

Sergio and Pietro

[SNIP]
>>From your mail, I infer that you agree on (a) and (b).  Is this correct?
> [[ALU]] We agree on (a) and (b).

Good.  To me, as I mentioned in my first mail on this thread, this means th=
at G-PID isn't the right place to carry this information.

On 9/27/2011 9:20 AM, Lou Berger wrote:
    Option 1, G-PID, is really designed to support end-point client
    adaptation, so as an end-point only field it really only supports
    need (a), so I don't think G-PID is the right place to indicate TSG.

Of course this doesn't answer where is the right/best place.

[ALU] It seems that from the first mail, the only survived options for sign=
aling are:

1: GPID
2: Signal type
3: Encoding

Signal type and encoding should be discarded because both imply that the cu=
rrent LSPs uses exclusively intermediate links/FAs exporting the TSG granul=
arity embedded in the Encoding or in the signal type. This is not required.

The G-PID might be used on the penultimate hop to select the right interfac=
e, but you say that it cannot be considered because by design it should be =
used only on endpoints. About this fact RFC 3471 says instead that exceptio=
ns are possible.

If our interpretation is correct, the only real possibilities for signaling=
 are either allowing an exception on G-PID usage or introduce a dedicated o=
bject.

In the info model draft we have already stated the need for a dedicated opt=
ional object in signaling that should carry the set of potential client. Th=
e TSG information could be added in that object.

[SNIP]
> B) The server resources used by the current LSP. These resources can
> be different link by link. The server resources can be represented in
> control plane either by TE-link or FA-LSP. When the server capacity is
> higher then the capacity of the current LSP (we mean not at the same
> rate of the client) , the server is structured and the current LSP is
> adapted in the server using 1.25 or 2.5 tributary slots depending from
> the capability of both the endpoints of the server.

So, unless I'm misunderstanding you, the "link by link server resources"
is the same as "[need] (c) Intermediate nodes", which we've agreed depends =
on the capabilities of the nodes at the end of the links/FA-LSP

[ALU] The two endpoints of the same TE-link/FA negotiate the TS size depend=
ently from their own capabilities.

I believe your additional point, is that the TSG of the "current LSP" is im=
material at intermediate nodes.  correct?

[ALU] The TSG of the " LSP current" is an information useful for potential =
client of this LSP, so is not correlated on how this LSP is mapped on serve=
r resources.

[SNIP]
> The first one is that both endpoints
> declare the same set of clients, and the second is that both endpoint
> can support the same tributary slot granularity. Note that it is not
> possible to infer the tributary slot granularity from the
> client-server hierarchies declared by a TE-link. Just to make an
> example, take a TE-link that declares to support ODU2 over ODU3, ODU2
> can be mapped over ODU3 either using 2.5 or 1.25 tributary slots.

This was need (a) in my original mail, correct?

[ALU] yes

[SNIP]
> Last but not least, note that the tributary slot granularity is not
> part of current LSP in the sense that does not exist an ODU2 at 1.25
> TS and does not exist an ODU2 at 2.5 TS. It only exist an ODU2 at a
> nominal rate mapped over a higher rate server using 2.5 or 1.25 TS.
>

Humm, while this is the case for ODU2, what about ODUflex and ODU0?

[ALU]  No reason to think differently for ODU-flex or ODU0.
Both signals are adapted on a server using one or more  1.25 TS.
As ODU2 at 2.5 TS does not exist, in the same way an ODU0 or ODU-flex at 1.=
25 TS does not exist.
The fact that currently the ODU0 and ODU can be, by definition adapted on a=
 server using only 1.25 TS is not relevant for signal specification.
Nothing prevents in the future that ODU0 can be carried on a different TS s=
ize.

[SNIP]
> When signaling the ODU2 LSP we must ensure that at the endpoints the
> ODU2 LSP supports at the endpoints the 1.25 TS granularity. There is
> no need (and it is not an optimization) to force the ODU2 LSP to use
> ODU3 LSPs that export 1.25 TS.
>

Right.  Unless I misunderstand you, you're saying and I agree that at the m=
apping point between the ODU0 LSP and the ODU2 LSP, the ODU2 LSP must be ab=
le to support the proper, 1.25, TSG.  Assuming this is correct this may be =
at an intermediate node in the network, which was my
original "need (c)".   So we're back to a seeming agreement on all three
needs.

[ALU] You're considering the case an add/drop of a service ODU0 using ODU2 =
LSP as H-LSP , that is not terminated in the same points of ODU0 service?
This is not possible:
wherever you start the ODU0 service, you need to terminate the ODU2 LSP use=
d as H-LSP. So again this is an end point for server/H-LSP.
Coming back to the example, in order to switch an ODU0 service on an interm=
ediate node,it is needed to terminate first the ODU2 LSP used as H-LSP. In =
order to be usable by an ODU0 LSP that is currently set, the ODU H-LSP must=
 offer to the ODU0 LSP a 1.25 TSG.
For completeness, if the LSP that is currently set is an ODU2 LSP, the ODU =
H-LSP must offer to the ODU2 LSP a 1.25 or a 2.5 TSG.

[SNIP]
100% agreed. Note that G-PID really isn't typically used as part of route/p=
ath computation today.

[ALU] Not clear what you mean here: our proposal of the usage of G-PID is i=
n the signaling not for path computation for which we should have the dedic=
ated information in the routing.

> This has nothing to do with
> point c of your statement that would imply always along the path to
> have only one type of TS size.

I don't think I ever made this statement or intended this implication.
Perhaps you can suggest a rewording of "need (c)".

[ALU] No, point c is clear. The meaning of our sentence is that compatibili=
ty validation has to be done in the end points no need in the intermediate =
ones.

So, it seems we all agree that TSG information is needed in both signaling =
and routing.

[ALU] This is the same conclusion reached in July: yes, TSG information is =
needed both in signaling and routing

 Can we also agree that G-PID isn't the right place for this information?

[ALU] We are not close on only one solution: G-PID , for the reason we trie=
d to explain it seems , among the present objects/fields, the best candidat=
e, as recognized by the most of the interested people in the July discussio=
n.
Said that, as above, there is also an alternative solution , and we would l=
ike to have a common agreement on one of the two from WG.


BR

SERGIO BELOTTI

ALCATEL-LUCENT
Terrestrial System Architect
Optics Portfolio Evolution

via Trento 30 , Vimercate(MI)  Italy
T: +39 0396863033
Sergio.Belotti@alcatel-lucent.com




-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
Inviato: sabato 1 ottobre 2011 14.34
A: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)
Cc: CCAMP
Oggetto: Re: R: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG

Pietro and Sergio,
        See below for responses in-line.

On 9/29/2011 4:48 AM, GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO) wrote:
> Hello Lou,
>
> we try to make further clarification, with a long explanation in line ( s=
orry for this :-))
>
> Pietro and Sergio
>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
> Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute. That's r=
elativity.
> (A. Einstein)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
> Sent: mercoled=EC 28 settembre 2011 17.37
> To: BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)
> Cc: CCAMP; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> Subject: Re: R: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
>
>
> Sergio and Pietro,
>
> It sounds like we should get in-sync on where TSG information is needed
> first then talk about how to carry it.  So, I said:
>
>> As I understand it, TSG is needed at:
>>   (a) the endpoints that terminate the signal/LSP to ensure proper
>>       adaptation.
>>   (b) the 2nd and penultimate hops to ensure the proper
>>       interface/H-LSP selection.
>>   (c) Intermediate nodes for proper TS allocation.
>>
>
>>From your mail, I infer that you agree on (a) and (b).  Is this correct?
> [[ALU]] We agree on (a) and (b).

Good.  To me, as I mentioned in my first mail on this thread, this means
that G-PID isn't the right place to carry this information.

On 9/27/2011 9:20 AM, Lou Berger wrote:
    Option 1, G-PID, is really designed to support end-point client
    adaptation, so as an end-point only field it really only supports
    need (a), so I don't think G-PID is the right place to indicate TSG.

Of course this doesn't answer where is the right/best place.

>
> WRT to (c) you said:
>> [ALU] Item (c) is not correct. Intermediate nodes do not need to
> demultiplex client, you can have ODU0 LSPs , that surely need to have
> 1,25 interfaces in the end points but using 2.5 TSG in the middle of the
> network since they have tunneled on 2.5 structured containers.
>>
>>
>
> I'm having a hard time parsing your statement.  Are you saying (i) you
> client ODU0 carried over an ODUn (n>0) H-LSP or (ii) and ODU0 which is
> carried over links OTUn links and 2.5G slots in the intermediate links,
> or (iii) something completely different.
>
> [[ALU]] We think that the better way to understand the problem is
> having in mind a reference model composed by:
>
> A) The current LSP that we are drawing.
>
> B) The server resources used by the current LSP. These resources can
> be different link by link. The server resources can be represented in
> control plane either by TE-link or FA-LSP. When the server capacity
> is higher then the capacity of the current LSP (we mean not at the
> same rate of the client) , the server is structured and the current
> LSP is adapted in the server using 1.25 or 2.5 tributary slots
> depending from the capability of both the endpoints of the server.

So, unless I'm misunderstanding you, the "link by link server resources"
is the same as "[need] (c) Intermediate nodes", which we've agreed
depends on the capabilities of the nodes at the end of the links/FA-LSPs.

I believe your additional point, is that the TSG of the "current LSP" is
immaterial at intermediate nodes.  correct?

>
> C) A resource that is a client of the current LSP. This client can either=
 be
> an ODU or use a different technology.
>
> If the client in point c) is an ODU (or better a set of ODUs at
> different rates) then the current LSP will have (in future) to be
> structured in such a way that the ODU client(s) will be carried. In
> order to ensure that a client can be set two things must happen at
> the endpoint of the current LSP.
>
> The first one is that both endpoints
> declare the same set of clients, and the second is that both endpoint
> can support the same tributary slot granularity. Note that it is not
> possible to infer the tributary slot granularity from the
> client-server hierarchies declared by a TE-link. Just to make an
> example, take a TE-link that declares to support ODU2 over ODU3, ODU2
> can be mapped over ODU3 either using 2.5 or 1.25 tributary slots.

This was need (a) in my original mail, correct?

> To
> complicate things, it is not always true that an interface supporting
> 1.25 tributary slots can also support 2.5 tributary slots, because
> this specific functionality (known as fallback support setting
> auto-payload flag to ON) can be either not present in HW or disabled
> by NMS.
>

Well this is something I didn't have in my original mail.  It was my
understanding from previous discussions, that fallback support was a
required in G.709-v3.  If it is optional (either in implementation or in
operation) we need to ensure that both cases (1.25 + 2.5 support, or
just 1.25 support) are fully covered.

> In conclusion to this reasoning, when we signal the current LSP (of
> point A) we need to transfer two information: The desired tributary
> slot granularity that the current LSP will export to future clients
> and the set of clients (point C) that has to be supported (if
> known). The desired tributary slot granularity to be exported to
> future clients directly affects the adaptation that will be
> instantiated when drawing a client. The desired tributary slot
> granularity is the entity that we are debating.

Agreed, this was "need (a)" in my original mail.

> Note that the desired
> tributary slot granularity for client does not affect the label
> signaled for the current LSP. These labels are only affected by the
> tributary slot granularity exported by the server that is carrying
> the current LSP.
>
> Last but not least, note that the tributary slot granularity is not
> part of current LSP in the sense that does not exist an ODU2 at 1.25
> TS and does not exist an ODU2 at 2.5 TS. It only exist an ODU2 at a
> nominal rate mapped over a higher rate server using 2.5 or 1.25 TS.
>

Humm, while this is the case for ODU2, what about ODUflex and ODU0?

>
>
>> Either way, isn't the case that it would be optimal to use 1.25 TSs for
>> certain ODUs (e.g., OD0, ODUFlex) on transit links when both ends of the
>> link support 1.25?
>
> [[ALU]] Tributary Slots were originally introduced in order to avoid
> link defragmentation. They started at 2.5 that was correct for all
> ODUs (at that time) and following it was introduced 1.25 in order to
> better accommodate GbEthernet client (into ODU0 at 1,25) and also
> ODU-flex (CBR) .
>
> ODU0 and ODU flex MUST be mapped over their server at 1.25. Just to
> make an example let's take an ODU0 LSP that has to be carried over an
> ODU2 LSP that in turn is mapped over several ODU3 LSPs.
>
> When signaling the ODU2 LSP we must ensure that at the endpoints the
> ODU2 LSP supports at the endpoints the 1.25 TS granularity. There is
> no need (and it is not an optimization) to force the ODU2 LSP to use
> ODU3 LSPs that export 1.25 TS.
>

Right.  Unless I misunderstand you, you're saying and I agree that at
the mapping point between the ODU0 LSP and the ODU2 LSP, the ODU2 LSP
must be able to support the proper, 1.25, TSG.  Assuming this is correct
this may be at an intermediate node in the network, which was my
original "need (c)".   So we're back to a seeming agreement on all three
needs.

>
> You also said:
>> [ALU] In the INFO we have explained the need also for TSG in routing
>> (following conclusion of mailing list discussion) and the routing
>> draft simply proposes a possible encoding of the information.
>>
>> This solution, for the sake of truth, can be getting better, taking
>> into account the AutoPayloadtype flag information. This information
>> is a typical MI information , described in in G.798, and it simply
>> tells us whether Fallback procedure is enabled or not.
>>
>> Since this information is typically configured by the manager we do
>> not think it has to be considered directly in the control plane
>> (neither signaled or advertised ). However we have to take into
>> account the fact that auto-payload type set to off generates
>> interfaces that can support 1.25 TSG only.
>>
>
>> Okay, now I'm really confused.  This seems to imply that you are saying
>> the (c) above is needed.  What am I missing?
>
> [[ALU]] the advertising of TS information in routing is coming from
> the requirement found in ITU-T's G.7715.1 stating the need for links
> to advertise the adaptations supported by a link end (i.e. TE-Link
> end). As said before TS size is an adaptation attribute. When the
> TE-Link advertisement (whether a TE-Link created by an FA or a
> TE-Link that uses a physical link) includes details related to TSG,
> it is possible for routing to validate the compatibility of the
> endpoints with the service requested.

100% agreed. Note that G-PID really isn't typically used as part of
route/path computation today.

> This has nothing to do with
> point c of your statement that would imply always along the path to
> have only one type of TS size.

I don't think I ever made this statement or intended this implication.
Perhaps you can suggest a rewording of "need (c)".

So, it seems we all agree that TSG information is needed in both
signaling and routing.  Can we also agree that G-PID isn't the right
place for this information?

Lou

>
> Much thanks,
> Lou
>
>
> On 9/28/2011 8:02 AM, BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO) wrote:
>> Hi Lou,
>>
>> Please see in line .
>>
>> BR
>>
>> Sergio and Pietro
>>
>>
>> -----Messaggio originale-----
>> Da: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] Per conto di =
Lou Berger
>> Inviato: marted=EC 27 settembre 2011 15.20
>> A: CCAMP
>> Oggetto: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
>>
>> All / G.709 draft authors,
>>
>>      We have a few slightly unaligned proposals on where to indicate the
>> [G.709-v3] Tributary Slot Granularity:
>>
>>
>>
>> 1: G-PID
>>     draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model-01 says:
>>     One possible solution is the G-PID field of the GENERALIZED LABEL
>>     REQUEST Object.
>>
>> [ALU]What inserted in the INFO draft , is the result of the discussion m=
ade in July on the subject, in the mailing , taking into account suggestion=
 and comments coming from John, Jonathan and others participating at the di=
scussion.
>> Our opinion is that the ending draft for signaling should be aligned to =
the info model draft incorporating the required changes to GPID. The motiva=
tions behind our opinion can be better understood reading the other comment=
s.
>>
>> 2: A new field:
>>    draft-ceccarelli-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709-07 says:
>>       - TSG: Tributary Slot Granularity (2bit): Used for the
>>       advertisement of the supported Tributary Slot granularity
>> [ALU] In the INFO we have explained the need also for TSG in routing (fo=
llowing conclusion of mailing list discussion) and the routing draft simply=
 proposes a possible encoding of the information.
>> This solution, for the sake of truth, can be getting better, taking into=
 account the AutoPayloadtype flag information. This information is a typica=
l MI information , described in in G.798, and it simply tells us whether Fa=
llback procedure is enabled or not.
>> Since this information is typically configured by the manager we do not =
think it has to be considered directly in the control plane (neither signal=
ed or advertised ). However we have to take into account the fact that
>> auto-payload type set to off generates interfaces that can support 1.25 =
TSG only.
>>
>> This fact can be incorporated in routing by adding a new meaning in the =
two bits encodings:
>>
>>          - 00 - 1.25 Gbps (AutoPayloadtype off)
>>
>>          - 01 - 1.25 Gbps (AutoPayloadType on)
>>
>>          - 10 - 2.5 Gbps
>>
>>          - 11 - Reserved
>>
>>
>> 3: Implicitly:
>>    draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709-09 doesn't explicitly
>>    signal TSG, but rather has it implied in the new ODU label.
>>
>> [ALU] There is nothing implicitly. The reality is that at the moment sig=
naling draft does not address the problem . What you consider as "implicitl=
y deduced" is in fact the TSG granularity with which the client is mapped i=
n the server ODUk/OTUK or FA/H-LSP. What has to be clarified is that what w=
e need to signal is an adaptation information regarding what the server can=
 expose to the client regarding TS granularity capability.
>> TS size is an attribute of the adaptation used to put an ODUj into an OD=
Uk.
>> What you consider as implicit is just how ODUj is mapped into ODUk, but =
the problem is to signal ODUk with the correct adaptation attribute.
>>
>> Some other alternatives include:
>>
>> 4: GMPLS Encoding
>>    Currently used to indicate G.709 (which is also what the Switch
>>    cap essentially indicates) An alternative would use:
>>       12              G.709 ODUk (Digital Path, 2.5G)[RFC4328]
>>       TBA (e.g., 15)  G.709 ODUk (Digital Path, 1.25G)
>>
>>    In routing, 15 would imply support for both 1.25 and 2.5G, as
>>    support for both by 1.25 capable interfaces is required by
>>    [G.709-v3]. (At least as I understand it.)
>>
>> [ALU] Encoding field should define the nature of the LSP : RFC 4328 defi=
ned two OTN new values G.709 ODUk (Digital Path) and G.709 Optical Channel.=
 We do not see any reason to link encoding with information that would need=
 to choose interfaces (as TSG) since the "nature " of LSP does not change d=
ependently of the usage of 1.25 or 2.5 ODUk tributary slot.
>>
>> 5: Signal Type
>>    Carried in routing ISCD/SCSI and signaling traffic parameters.
>>    Could enumerate all ODUx types to indicate either 1.25G or 2.5G.
>>    Existing types indicate 2.5G, new types would need to be enumerated
>>    for the new 1.25 and 2.5 types.  Hereto, the 1.25 types would imply
>>    support for both 1.25 and 2.5 types in routing.
>>
>> [ALU] During the discussion in July the usage of Signal Type was one of =
the first possibilities analyzed. We definitely leave out signal type for t=
he reason above regarding adaptation information.
>> TS granularity is an information that server LSP has to expose to client=
 LSP. What is related to the client is conveyed in the G-PID not in the Sig=
nal Type .
>> There are no different Signal Type for the same ODU in OTN: e.g. ODU2 it=
 is the same , what can change is the adaptation attribute towards client (=
e.g. 1.25 or 2.5 TSG for ODU1 client).
>>
>> As I understand it, TSG is needed at:
>>   (a) the endpoints that terminate the signal/LSP to ensure proper
>>       adaptation.
>>   (b) the 2nd and penultimate hops to ensure the proper
>>       interface/H-LSP selection.
>>   (c) Intermediate nodes for proper TS allocation.
>>
>> [ALU] Item (c) is not correct. Intermediate nodes do not need to demulti=
plex client, you can have ODU0 LSPs , that surely need to have 1,25 interfa=
ces in the end points but using 2.5 TSG in the middle of the network since =
they have tunneled on 2.5 structured containers.
>>
>>
>>
>> It seems to me that we have enough existing fields in GMPLS (for G.709)
>> that we should consider these before introducing new ones.  Of the
>> existing fields, we have 1, 4 and 5.:
>>
>>    Option 1, G-PID, is really designed to support end-point client
>>    adaptation, so as an end-point only field it really only supports
>>    need (a), so I don't think G-PID is the right place to indicate TSG.
>>
>> [ALU] G-PID is the correct place :
>>  1) It contains information related to client of an LSP that is exactly =
what we need.
>> 2) As reported in RFC 3471 " This is used by the nodes at the endpoints =
of the LSP, and in some cases by the penultimate hop." We are exactly in th=
ese "some cases"
>>
>>    Option 4, Encoding, is used to support (a) and (b)-type checks in
>>    GMPLS, but not (c).  So, while this field is definitely a better
>>    place than G-PID to indicate TSG, it doesn't satisfy all the needs.
>>
>>    Option 5, Signal Type, is used to support all needs.
>>
>> [ALU] Already commented why not the right places.
>>
>> Given all this, I'd like to propose that we use Option 5, Signal Type,
>> to indicate TSG, and that this be reflected in the relevant WG drafts.
>> (Authors, let me know if you'd like specific text proposals.)
>>
>> Comments?
>>
>> Much thanks,
>> Lou (as WG contributor)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

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Hi Young,

I was following the discussion and I have a doubt about
your example related to the TE Link TLV.

It's true that the attributes sub-TLV are not mandatory per RFC 3630,
but I don't think that means that they can be not included in an LSA update
if unchanged (implying that the previous value persists).

As for my understanding of how OSPF-TE works, the managed TE DB entity is the LSA.
When an LSA update is processed, the previous version is deleted from the TE DB
and it is replaced by the new one: link attributes related to missing sub-TLV are
deleted, so they must be present even if unchanged.

In theory, the set of link attributes could be statically divided
in two different LSAs instances (updated independently),
but I don't think current implementations handle this scenario
(also because, in my opinion, it's not suggested by RFC 3630 and
  it gives no rule on how to divide them).

But I ask to the mailing list if this is the correct interpretation.

Regards,
Andrea

On 09/30/2011 11:16 PM, Leeyoung wrote:
> Hi Pierre,
>
> I got your point. Let me ask you this question. In the current GMPLS OSPF TE Link TLV are defined under Opaque TE LSA with the following attributes:
>
> - TE Metric
> - max B/W
> - max reservable b/w
> - unreserved b/w
> - Admin Group
> - Link Protection Type
> - SRLG
> - ISCD
> - etc.
>
> And these are a mixture of static and dynamic information and yet they are assembled together as one TE Link TLV. For instance the ISCD is quite similar to Resource Block Info in that it does not change often unless there are new elements added in the node or configuration changes and yet it is packaged together with other dynamic information.
>
> Why?
>
> There are many ways to keep static/unchanged information from being flooded. Only the Link Type and Link ID which are mandatory in the TE Link TLV per RFC3630. All other sub-TLV are optional and may occur at most once (when there are enough changes from the previous period that deserve an update) and need not be included in the TE Link TLV when there is no need for updating.
>
> I really don't see the need for a separate top-level TLV and/or a separate LSA for the Resource Block information.
>
> Regards,
> Young
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) [mailto:pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.com]
> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 9:39 AM
> To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>
> Hi Young,
>
> I understand the content of your answer, but I'm not satisfied with it.
> My concern deals with providing a unique reading/interpretation of the OSPF-TE extensions.
> We would like to make sure that any implementation complying to the drafts would provide the same LSAs when applied to the same network.
> With this perspective in mind, we wish to get drafts with sufficient documentation to make sure the LSA design process to be depicted, by design rules.
>
> Hence the content of your answer leaving me the "opportunity to do as I wish", is not pleasing me, I would rather have strict rules, and discussions with the WG on the design of those.
> That is why a first design rule, we could agree on is: to gather the Resource Block Information TLVs inside a dedicated LSA, possibly with a dedicated top-level TLV (which in my mind allows to enforce this design rule).
>
> Regards,
>
> - Pierre
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Leeyoung [mailto:leeyoung@huawei.com]
> Envoy : mercredi 28 septembre 2011 00:06
>  : PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE); ccamp@ietf.org
> Objet : RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>
> Hi Pierre,
>
> Please see-inline for my reply to your first point.
>
> Regards,
> Young
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) [mailto:pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 3:28 AM
> To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>
> Hi Young, and CCAMPers,
>
> I was off the mailing lists for the last two weeks and being back I notice a lot of exchanges, which I'm very glad of.
> I've also noticed many drafts have been updated.
> Concerning this specific draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06, I wanted to comment section 3.
> Back in Quebec, I expressed my point of view (shared with Cyril, Julien and Giovanni) that current drafts were lacking guidance regarding the way to design LSAs that were to depict an WSON node with OEOs.
> This section 3 provides additional material to help designing the LSA.
> I would like to know whether authors are willing to pursue further in this direction, which is to my mind a real corner stone, that would help everyone agree on a solution.
> A first point could concern the Resource Block Information (reminder:<ResourceBlockInfo>  ::= ([<ResourceSet>]<InputConstraints>  <ProcessingCapabilities>  <OutputConstraints>):
>       We all agree that these information are static, that we should not replicate this TLV whatever the number not the layout of OEO boards of a given type.
> Then, we could dedicate a specific independant flooding entity. This would be defined once for all, and that would not leave room to different interpretations.
> What about this first point?
>
> YOUNG>>  If I understand you correctly, what you are saying is since the Resource Block Info sub-TLV is very static in nature, advertisement of this sub-TLV should be treated differently from the rest of static-TLVs (which may change over time). Is this what you are saying?
>
> If my interpretation of your comment is correct,
>
> - The current mechanism allows what you want: Please see the first paragraph in Section 3.2
>     "In the highly unlikely event that a WSON sub-TLV by itself would
>     result in an LSA exceeding the MTU, all five WSON specific sub-TLVs
>     in this document provide mechanisms that allow them to be subdivided
>     into smaller sub-TLVs that can be sent in separate OSPF TE LSAs."
>
> According to this clause, you can separate the Resource Block Info Sub-TLV as the sole entry defined in the Optical Node property TLV in a separate TE LSA from the rest if you will. Nothing prevents this particular way of packaging. (Isn't this what you meant "a specific independent flooding entity"?)
>
> - Please let me know if this explanation satisfies you. Thanks --- Young
>
> Regards,
>
> Pierre
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Leeyoung Envoy : jeudi 15 septembre 2011 21:59  : ccamp@ietf.org Objet : Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>
> Hi all,
>
> After 05 version publication, Acee provided a number of valuable comments and suggestions. This revision (06) reflects those changes. Please note the following updates:
>
> - Change the title of the draft to "GMPLS OSPF Enhancement..." from "OSPF Enhancement..." to make sure the changes apply to the GMPLS OSPF rather than the base OSPF.
>
> - Add specific OSPF procedures on how sub-TLVs are packaged per [RFC3630] and editorial change including avoiding "multiple instances of TE LSA" to "multiple TE LSAs".
>
> Your comments are always appreciated. Thanks.
>
> Best Regards.
> Young
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 2:48 PM
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
> Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.
>
> 	Title           : GMPLS OSPF Enhancement for Signal and Network Element Compatibility for Wavelength Switched Optical Networks
> 	Author(s)       : Young Lee
>                            Greg M. Bernstein
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
> 	Pages           : 14
> 	Date            : 2011-09-15
>
>     This document provides GMPLS OSPF routing enhancements to support
>     signal compatibility constraints associated with WSON network
>     elements. These routing enhancements are required in common optical
>     or hybrid electro-optical networks where not all of the optical
>     signals in the network are compatible with all network elements
>     participating in the network.
>
>     This compatibility constraint model is applicable to common optical
>     or hybrid electro optical systems such as OEO switches, regenerators,
>     and wavelength converters since such systems can be limited to
>     processing only certain types of WSON signals.
>
>
>
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
> This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>


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From lberger@labn.net  Mon Oct  3 07:18:48 2011
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] R: R: Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG (point 1)
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Sergio,
	In interest in keeping the conversation focused, I've narrowed this
mail to just the first point in your prior mail.

On 10/3/2011 9:10 AM, BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO) wrote:
> 
> Lou,
> 
> We captured essential parts of your mail to avoid proliferation of nesting.
> 
> We think that we are converging:
> 1) we have proposed a solution for routing as all agreed TSG information is needed
> 2) there are two possible alternatives for signaling as detailed below.
> 
> See response details in correspondence of the snip.
> 
> BR
> 
> Sergio and Pietro
> 
> [SNIP]
>> >From your mail, I infer that you agree on (a) and (b).  Is this correct?
>> [[ALU]] We agree on (a) and (b).
> 
> Good.  To me, as I mentioned in my first mail on this thread, this
> means that G-PID isn't the right place to carry this information.
> 
> On 9/27/2011 9:20 AM, Lou Berger wrote:
>     Option 1, G-PID, is really designed to support end-point client
>     adaptation, so as an end-point only field it really only supports
>     need (a), so I don't think G-PID is the right place to indicate TSG.
> 
> Of course this doesn't answer where is the right/best place.
> 
> [ALU] It seems that from the first mail, the only survived options for signaling are:
> 
> 1: GPID
> 2: Signal type
> 3: Encoding
> 
> Signal type and encoding should be discarded because both imply that
> the current LSPs uses exclusively intermediate links/FAs exporting
> the TSG granularity embedded in the Encoding or in the signal type.
> This is not required.

huh?  WRT encoding, RFC 3471 says:

      LSP Encoding Type: 8 bits

         Indicates the encoding of the LSP being requested.
and
     Switching Type: 8 bits

         Indicates the type of switching that should be performed on a
         particular link.

In other words encoding is an end-to-end attribute that relates to the
LSP.  Switching Type relates to what is happening link by link.  While
not typically done, Switching Type could change hop-by-hop, but encoding
is persistent across an LSP.

So I see personally see no issue or conflict if encoding indicates 1.25G
TSG but the label indicates 2.5G TSG.  Or for that matter mapping a
1.25G TSG signal on an H-LSP that uses 2.5G TSGs.

WRT to signal type, RFC 4328 says:

3.2.1.  Signal Type (ST)

   This field (8 bits) indicates the type of G.709 Elementary Signal
   that comprises the requested LSP.

So, as with Encoding, this relates to the end-to-end LSP and doesn't
indicate the TSG on a particular link.  Again, TSG is covered in the
label.  So again I see no issue or conflict if signal type indicates
1.25G TSG but the label indicates 2.5G TSG.


> 
> The G-PID might be used on the penultimate hop to select the right
> interface, but you say that it cannot be considered because by design
> it should be used only on endpoints. About this fact RFC 3471 says
> instead that exceptions are possible.

Sure.  I wrote that sentence :-)  It's also why I said:
>> On 9/27/2011 9:20 AM, Lou Berger wrote:
>>     Option 1, G-PID, is really designed to support end-point client
>>     adaptation, so as an end-point only field it really only supports
>>     need (a), so I don't think G-PID is the right place to indicate
>>     TSG.

> 
> If our interpretation is correct, the only real possibilities for
> signaling are either allowing an exception on G-PID usage or
> introduce a dedicated object.

Yes, I think we have a disagreement on interpretation (as well as a
really good discussion!)  IMO encoding and signal type are both better
suited to the requirements than G-PID given the above.  Furthermore, per
my previous mail, I think Signal type is better then Encoding.

Has your opinion changed/been impacted by the above interpretation of
signal type and encoding?  If not, can you elaborate?

[major snip]

Much thanks,
Lou

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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D	Action:	draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
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Hi Andrea,

Thanks for your interest and input to this issue.=20

My overall point was that the current GMPLS TE LSA (per RFC 3630) does not =
specify detail implementations as to how to divide up the TE Link TLVs into=
 static vs. dynamic nor how to use multiple TE LSAs. The current WSON docum=
ent follows a similar document philosophy with the GMPLS predecessor.=20

Regarding your point on how the TE DB works in regard to missing sub-TLVs a=
re deleted seems to me a particular implementation, which is most simplisti=
c in nature.=20

Best Regards,
Young

-----Original Message-----
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of A=
ndrea Zanardi
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 9:14 AM
To: Leeyoung
Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility=
-ospf-06.txt

Hi Young,

I was following the discussion and I have a doubt about
your example related to the TE Link TLV.

It's true that the attributes sub-TLV are not mandatory per RFC 3630,
but I don't think that means that they can be not included in an LSA update
if unchanged (implying that the previous value persists).

As for my understanding of how OSPF-TE works, the managed TE DB entity is t=
he LSA.
When an LSA update is processed, the previous version is deleted from the T=
E DB
and it is replaced by the new one: link attributes related to missing sub-T=
LV are
deleted, so they must be present even if unchanged.

In theory, the set of link attributes could be statically divided
in two different LSAs instances (updated independently),
but I don't think current implementations handle this scenario
(also because, in my opinion, it's not suggested by RFC 3630 and
  it gives no rule on how to divide them).

But I ask to the mailing list if this is the correct interpretation.

Regards,
Andrea

On 09/30/2011 11:16 PM, Leeyoung wrote:
> Hi Pierre,
>
> I got your point. Let me ask you this question. In the current GMPLS OSPF=
 TE Link TLV are defined under Opaque TE LSA with the following attributes:
>
> - TE Metric
> - max B/W
> - max reservable b/w
> - unreserved b/w
> - Admin Group
> - Link Protection Type
> - SRLG
> - ISCD
> - etc.
>
> And these are a mixture of static and dynamic information and yet they ar=
e assembled together as one TE Link TLV. For instance the ISCD is quite sim=
ilar to Resource Block Info in that it does not change often unless there a=
re new elements added in the node or configuration changes and yet it is pa=
ckaged together with other dynamic information.
>
> Why?
>
> There are many ways to keep static/unchanged information from being flood=
ed. Only the Link Type and Link ID which are mandatory in the TE Link TLV p=
er RFC3630. All other sub-TLV are optional and may occur at most once (when=
 there are enough changes from the previous period that deserve an update) =
and need not be included in the TE Link TLV when there is no need for updat=
ing.
>
> I really don't see the need for a separate top-level TLV and/or a separat=
e LSA for the Resource Block information.
>
> Regards,
> Young
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) [mailto:pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.com]
> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 9:39 AM
> To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibili=
ty-ospf-06.txt
>
> Hi Young,
>
> I understand the content of your answer, but I'm not satisfied with it.
> My concern deals with providing a unique reading/interpretation of the OS=
PF-TE extensions.
> We would like to make sure that any implementation complying to the draft=
s would provide the same LSAs when applied to the same network.
> With this perspective in mind, we wish to get drafts with sufficient docu=
mentation to make sure the LSA design process to be depicted, by design rul=
es.
>
> Hence the content of your answer leaving me the "opportunity to do as I w=
ish", is not pleasing me, I would rather have strict rules, and discussions=
 with the WG on the design of those.
> That is why a first design rule, we could agree on is: to gather the Reso=
urce Block Information TLVs inside a dedicated LSA, possibly with a dedicat=
ed top-level TLV (which in my mind allows to enforce this design rule).
>
> Regards,
>
> - Pierre
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Leeyoung [mailto:leeyoung@huawei.com]
> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 28 septembre 2011 00:06
> =C0 : PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE); ccamp@ietf.org
> Objet : RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibilit=
y-ospf-06.txt
>
> Hi Pierre,
>
> Please see-inline for my reply to your first point.
>
> Regards,
> Young
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) [mailto:pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 3:28 AM
> To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibili=
ty-ospf-06.txt
>
> Hi Young, and CCAMPers,
>
> I was off the mailing lists for the last two weeks and being back I notic=
e a lot of exchanges, which I'm very glad of.
> I've also noticed many drafts have been updated.
> Concerning this specific draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-=
06, I wanted to comment section 3.
> Back in Quebec, I expressed my point of view (shared with Cyril, Julien a=
nd Giovanni) that current drafts were lacking guidance regarding the way to=
 design LSAs that were to depict an WSON node with OEOs.
> This section 3 provides additional material to help designing the LSA.
> I would like to know whether authors are willing to pursue further in thi=
s direction, which is to my mind a real corner stone, that would help every=
one agree on a solution.
> A first point could concern the Resource Block Information (reminder:<Res=
ourceBlockInfo>  ::=3D ([<ResourceSet>]<InputConstraints>  <ProcessingCapab=
ilities>  <OutputConstraints>):
>       We all agree that these information are static, that we should not =
replicate this TLV whatever the number not the layout of OEO boards of a gi=
ven type.
> Then, we could dedicate a specific independant flooding entity. This woul=
d be defined once for all, and that would not leave room to different inter=
pretations.
> What about this first point?
>
> YOUNG>>  If I understand you correctly, what you are saying is since the =
Resource Block Info sub-TLV is very static in nature, advertisement of this=
 sub-TLV should be treated differently from the rest of static-TLVs (which =
may change over time). Is this what you are saying?
>
> If my interpretation of your comment is correct,
>
> - The current mechanism allows what you want: Please see the first paragr=
aph in Section 3.2
>     "In the highly unlikely event that a WSON sub-TLV by itself would
>     result in an LSA exceeding the MTU, all five WSON specific sub-TLVs
>     in this document provide mechanisms that allow them to be subdivided
>     into smaller sub-TLVs that can be sent in separate OSPF TE LSAs."
>
> According to this clause, you can separate the Resource Block Info Sub-TL=
V as the sole entry defined in the Optical Node property TLV in a separate =
TE LSA from the rest if you will. Nothing prevents this particular way of p=
ackaging. (Isn't this what you meant "a specific independent flooding entit=
y"?)
>
> - Please let me know if this explanation satisfies you. Thanks --- Young
>
> Regards,
>
> Pierre
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de=
 Leeyoung Envoy=E9 : jeudi 15 septembre 2011 21:59 =C0 : ccamp@ietf.org Obj=
et : Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-osp=
f-06.txt
>
> Hi all,
>
> After 05 version publication, Acee provided a number of valuable comments=
 and suggestions. This revision (06) reflects those changes. Please note th=
e following updates:
>
> - Change the title of the draft to "GMPLS OSPF Enhancement..." from "OSPF=
 Enhancement..." to make sure the changes apply to the GMPLS OSPF rather th=
an the base OSPF.
>
> - Add specific OSPF procedures on how sub-TLVs are packaged per [RFC3630]=
 and editorial change including avoiding "multiple instances of TE LSA" to =
"multiple TE LSAs".
>
> Your comments are always appreciated. Thanks.
>
> Best Regards.
> Young
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 2:48 PM
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
> Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-o=
spf-06.txt
>
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct=
ories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plan=
e Working Group of the IETF.
>
> 	Title           : GMPLS OSPF Enhancement for Signal and Network Element =
Compatibility for Wavelength Switched Optical Networks
> 	Author(s)       : Young Lee
>                            Greg M. Bernstein
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
> 	Pages           : 14
> 	Date            : 2011-09-15
>
>     This document provides GMPLS OSPF routing enhancements to support
>     signal compatibility constraints associated with WSON network
>     elements. These routing enhancements are required in common optical
>     or hybrid electro-optical networks where not all of the optical
>     signals in the network are compatible with all network elements
>     participating in the network.
>
>     This compatibility constraint model is applicable to common optical
>     or hybrid electro optical systems such as OEO switches, regenerators,
>     and wavelength converters since such systems can be limited to
>     processing only certain types of WSON signals.
>
>
>
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatib=
ility-ospf-06.txt
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
> This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibi=
lity-ospf-06.txt
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>


--=20
--------------------------------------------------------
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Hi Young,

sorry for late reply

On 9/22/11 9:43 PM, Leeyoung wrote:
>
> Hi Giovanni,
>
> We have updated the generic OSPF draft (thanks to Fatai).
>
> ?Point #1: Regarding your concern on how to build a connectivity
> matrix in case we need to decompose into several sub-TLV$B!G(Bs, we have
> added the following subsection in the revision:
>
> 5.2. Decomposing a Connectivity Matrix into Multiple Matrices
>
> In the highly unlikely event that a Connectivity matrix sub-TLV by
>
> itself would result in an LSA exceeding the MTU, a single large
>
> matrix can be decomposed into sub-matrices. Per [GEN-Encode] a
>
> connectivity matrix just consists of pairs of input and output ports
>
> that can reach each other and hence such this decomposition would be
>
> straightforward. Each of these sub-matrices would get a unique matrix
>
> identifier per [GEN-Encode].
>
> Please let us know if you still have a question after reviewing the text.
>
I would guess this text apply to
draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode since the issue is not
specific to OSPF. Is the text here above you use "port" while should be
"link set".


<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-05.txt>

>
> ?Point #2: In addition, the revision proposed a new solution that
> allows multiple sub-TLV$B!G(Bs defined in a top-level TLV. Please see
> Section 2 in which we added the following text:
>
> This document defines a new top TLV named the Generic Node Attribute
>
> TLV which carries attributes related to a general network element.
>
> This Generic Node Attribute TLV contains one or more sub-TLVs
>
> And in Section 7.1, we added
>
> This document introduces a new Top Level Node TLV (Generic Node
>
> Attribute TLV) under the OSPF TE LSA defined in [RFC3630].
>
> Value TLV Type
>
> TBA Generic Node Attribute
>
> Please let us know if this seems to be a viable solution. If not,
> please suggest an alternative solution.
>
Btw, I did not comment here although I lean toward this ... since adding
a new top level tlv sounds familiar.

> ?Point #3: Finally, concerning your question/comment: Since it has to
> be "generic" we don't know in principle. Does not look a problem for
> *unconstrained* wson nodes. Don't know if others has different options
> for wson technology or may be possible other technologies (otn?).
>
> I am not clear what you are asking for here. But if I guess, you are
> concerned about $B!H(Bgeneric$B!I(B technology connectivity matrix. Please note
> that the reason why we needed the connectivity matrix in WSON was due
> to the nature of asymmetric nature of ROADM switching technology.
>
although WSON technology in evolving in removing constrains I was trying
to figure out numbers for a pretty unconstrained node (and still the
result is not negligible).

Again, by comment was not in proposing a new encoding in connectivity
matrix but just figure out what sizes we could expect. Hence my request
to get some realistic examples in Appendix A (but I could provide text
for that).

Cheers
G


> If switches are symmetric, we don$B!G(Bt need to advertise the connectivity
> matrix. This means any port can be switched to any other ports. Please
> see the last paragraph of Section 2:
>
> In some specific technologies, e.g., WSON networks, Connectivity
>
> Matrix sub-TLV may be optional, which depends on the control plane
>
> implementations. Usually, for example, in WSON networks, Connectivity
>
> Matrix sub-TLV may appear in the LSAs because WSON switches are
>
> asymmetric at present. It is assumed that the switches are symmetric
>
> switching, if there is no Connectivity Matrix sub-TLV in the LSAs.
>
> Please let us know if you still have a question after reviewing the text.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Young
>
> *From:*Giovanni Martinelli [mailto:giomarti@cisco.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 20, 2011 2:36 AM
> *To:* Leeyoung
> *Cc:* Acee Lindem; CCAMP
> *Subject:* Re: [CCAMP] FW: I-D Action:
> draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-05.txt
>
> Hi,
>
> On 9/19/11 10:29 PM, Leeyoung wrote:
>
> Hi Giovanni,
>
> Your worst case analysis for 16 degree node connectivity matrix is
> subject to verification,
>
>     but even if this is a right number, 300 bytes is well under 1500
>     byte MTU limit, so we can package it without sub-dividing the TLV.
>
> yes , I was not concerned about mtu but how to build a correct
> connectivity matrix beyond a simple 2 degree node. If you provide few
> more numbers there's probably a better feeling of "how many" bytes are
> (well beyond the mtu but well above the 75 bytes in the example).
>
>
> We can easily partition the connectivity matrix even if it goes beyond
> the MTU limit.
>
> Agree that's a good solution but my comment here is related to how do
> we partition. Would it worth to add some text about it? We could
> probably guess (e.g. linkset couple) but just to make sure all readers
> will have same interpretation.
>
>
> The last email to the CCAMP was concerning how to do it.
>
> -We can lift off RFC 5786 restriction to be able to send multiple TLVs
> under the current Node Attribute TLV.
>
> -Define a new top level TLV to do that.
>
> I know and I was not replaying on last email but trying to providing
> numbers for the connectivity matrix.
>
>
> I don$B!G(Bt think the scale of the connectivity matrix is a big issue.
>
> Since it has to be "generic" we don't know in principle. Does not look
> a problem for *unconstrained* wson nodes. Don't know if others has
> different options for wson technology or may be possible other
> technologies (otn?).
>
> Cheers
> G
>
> Regards,
>
> Young
>
> *From:*ccamp-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org>
> [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Giovanni Martinelli
> *Sent:* Monday, September 19, 2011 3:09 PM
> *To:* Acee Lindem
> *Cc:* CCAMP
> *Subject:* Re: [CCAMP] FW: I-D Action:
> draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-05.txt
>
> Hi,
>
> On 9/13/11 11:04 PM, Acee Lindem wrote:
>
> Hi Fatai,
> I only have two comments on this document:
>  
>   1. Reference RFC 5250 rather than RFC 2370 as the former obsoleted the latter. 
>   2. Possibly this draft should remove the RFC 5786 restriction that only a single OSPF TE LSA containing a top-level TLV is allowed. 
>       Couldn't the connectivity matrix become quite large? 
>
> as far as I've see there is a couple of examples here
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-05
> within appendix A3 and A4. So asking authors, any other numbers around?
>
> My comment here is that those numbers refers essentially to 2 degree
> node. I would ask if draft can report some information (formula in the
> optimal case) that allow to figure out how the connectivity matrix scale.
>
> E.g. Thinking about a 16 degree node my guess reading the appendix A4:
> the last part of the TLV (from "note : line to line" on) we need to
> add one more 32 bits to identify the out-range, and we need to
> replicate this link-set tuple 15 times. So in total the "line to line"
> become 5*15*4 = 300 bytes
>
> Is my guess correct?
>
> Cheers
> G
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  
> Thanks,
> Acee
>  
>  
> On Sep 12, 2011, at 11:40 PM, Zhangfatai wrote:
>  
>
>     Hi Acee,
>
>      
>
>     Sorry for a mistake, :-)
>
>      
>
>     I should say "when I update draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-00.txt" instead of "draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-05.txt".
>
>      
>
>      
>
>      
>
>      
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     Thanks
>
>      
>
>     Fatai
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>
>     From: Zhangfatai 
>
>     Sent: 2011$BG/(B9$B7n(B13$BF|(B 11:38
>
>     To: 'Acee Lindem'; Greg Bernstein; Leeyoung
>
>     Cc: CCAMP
>
>     Subject: RE: [CCAMP] FW: I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-05.txt
>
>      
>
>     Hi Acee,
>
>      
>
>     I personally agree with your comments on "multi-instance LSA".
>
>      
>
>     I will take your suggestions into account when I update "draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-05.txt".
>
>      
>
>      
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     Thanks
>
>      
>
>     Fatai
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>
>     From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Acee Lindem
>
>     Sent: 2011$BG/(B9$B7n(B13$BF|(B 6:58
>
>     To: Greg Bernstein; Leeyoung
>
>     Cc: CCAMP
>
>     Subject: Re: [CCAMP] FW: I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-05.txt
>
>      
>
>     Hi Young, Greg,
>
>     I have the following comments:
>
>      
>
>       1. Specify that the Optical Node Property TLV cardinality and order rules per LSA. 
>
>           For example (from RFC 3630): 
>
>      
>
>         "The Link TLV describes a single link.  It is constructed of a set of
>
>           sub-TLVs.  There are no ordering requirements for the sub-TLVs.
>
>      
>
>          Only one Link TLV shall be carried in each LSA, allowing for fine  
>
>          granularity changes in topology."
>
>      
>
>          However, use the term "advertised" rather than "carried". After all, these are
>
>          Link State Advertisements. 
>
>      
>
>       2. The same comment for all the Sub-TLVs. Here is another example from 
>
>            RFC 3630:
>
>      
>
>          "The Link Type and Link ID sub-TLVs are mandatory, i.e., must appear
>
>           exactly once.  All other sub-TLVs defined here may occur at most
>
>           once.  These restrictions need not apply to future sub-TLVs.
>
>           Unrecognized sub-TLVs are ignored."
>
>      
>
>           The new Sub-TLVs you are defining need this level of specification. 
>
>      
>
>       3. I know I told you not to use the term "multi-instance LSA". I still don't like
>
>           the usage of "LSA instance" in the draft. In the base OSPF specification, RFC 2328, 
>
>           the term LSA instance is used to denote a particular version of the same LSA - NOT
>
>           an opaque identifier for multiple LSAs of the same type. Refer to section 12.1 in 
>
>           RFC 2328. 
>
>      
>
>          The OSPF Opaque LSA RFC (RFC 2370 and its successor RFC 5250) correctly 
>
>           identify the last 24 bits of the LSA ID as the Opaque ID. While RFC 3630 refers
>
>           to this field as the "Instance", I believe this term should be avoided given the 
>
>           semantics in the OSPF base specification. Hence, I'd suggest the 
>
>           following changes:
>
>      
>
>     225,226c225,226
>
>     <    the rest and make use of multiple TE LSA instances per source, per
>
>     <    [RFC3630] multiple instance capability.
>
>     ---
>
>           the rest and be advertised with multiple TE LSAs per OSPF router, as
>
>           described in [RFC3630] and [RFC5250].
>
>     342,344c342,344
>
>     <    the dynamic information sub-TLVs into separate LSAs within an Optical
>
>     <    Node Property TLV using multiple TE LSA instances per source, per the
>
>     <    reference [RFC3630] multiple instance capability.
>
>     ---
>
>           the dynamic information sub-TLVs from the static information sub-TLVs
>
>           and advertise them in OSPF TE LSAs, each with the Optical Node
>
>           Property TLV at the top level ([RFC3630 and RFC5250]). 
>
>     392c392
>
>     <    into smaller sub-TLVs that can be sent in separate LSA instances.
>
>     ---
>
>           into smaller sub-TLVs that can be sent in separate OSPF TE LSAs.
>
>     399c399
>
>     <    sub-TLVs that can be sent in multiple LSA instances. The
>
>     ---
>
>           sub-TLVs that can be sent in multiple OSPF TE LSAs. The
>
>     473c473
>
>     <    into multiple LSA instances each containing a disjoint assembly of
>
>     ---
>
>           into multiple OSPF TE LSAs each containing a disjoint assembly of
>
>      
>
>         Additionally, I'd add RFC 5250 as at least a informative reference.
>
>      
>
>      
>
>      
>
>       4. Finally, I'd suggest changing the title from "OSPF Enhancement..." to 
>
>           "GMPLS OSPF Enhancement..." since you are not really enhancing base 
>
>           OSPF itself.  Of course, there are other CCAMP RFCs that do not make 
>
>           this distinction. 
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     Thanks,
>
>     Acee 
>
>      
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     On Sep 9, 2011, at 3:51 PM, Leeyoung wrote:
>
>      
>
>         Hi,
>
>          
>
>         This update added a new section to discuss OSPF scalability and how to use multiple TE LSA instance technique to keep the LSA under the MTU limit. Please note that the MTU limit is 1500 bytes and the examples given in the encoding draft is far below this limit. In case the LSA size goes above the MTU, this draft discusses how to split the Sub-TLVs' defined under the Optical Node Property TLV under the MTU limit to avoid fragmentation. 
>
>          
>
>         Take a look at Section 3 and if you have questions, please feel free to discuss in the mailing list. 
>
>          
>
>         Regards,
>
>         Young
>
>          
>
>          
>
>          
>
>         -----Original Message-----
>
>         From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf 
>
>         Of internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>
>
>         Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2011 5:16 PM
>
>         To: i-d-announce@ietf.org <mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org>
>
>         Cc: ccamp@ietf.org <mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
>
>         Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: 
>
>         draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-05.txt
>
>          
>
>         A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.
>
>          
>
>            Title           : OSPF Enhancement for Signal and Network Element Compatibility for Wavelength Switched Optical Networks
>
>            Author(s)       : Young Lee
>
>                                 Greg M. Bernstein
>
>            Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-05.txt
>
>            Pages           : 14
>
>            Date            : 2011-09-08
>
>          
>
>          This document provides GMPLS OSPF routing enhancements to support
>
>          signal compatibility constraints associated with WSON network
>
>          elements. These routing enhancements are required in common optical
>
>          or hybrid electro-optical networks where not all of the optical
>
>          signals in the network are compatible with all network elements
>
>          participating in the network.
>
>          
>
>          This compatibility constraint model is applicable to common optical
>
>          or hybrid electro optical systems such as OEO switches, regenerators,
>
>          and wavelength converters since such systems can be limited to
>
>          processing only certain types of WSON signals.
>
>          
>
>          
>
>          
>
>         A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>
>         http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compa
>
>         tibility-ospf-05.txt
>
>          
>
>         Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>
>         ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
>          
>
>         This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
>
>         ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compat
>
>         ibility-ospf-05.txt _______________________________________________
>
>         CCAMP mailing list
>
>         CCAMP@ietf.org <mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org>
>
>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>
>         _______________________________________________
>
>         CCAMP mailing list
>
>         CCAMP@ietf.org <mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org>
>
>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>
>      
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org <mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

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    Hi Young,<br>
    <br>
    sorry for late reply<br>
    <br>
    On 9/22/11 9:43 PM, Leeyoung wrote:
    <blockquote
cite="mid:%20%3C7AEB3D6833318045B4AE71C2C87E8E171817C223@DFWEML501-MBX.china.huawei.com"
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">Hi
            Giovanni,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">We
            have updated the generic OSPF draft (thanks to Fatai).
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoListParagraph"
          style="margin-left:.25in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1
          lfo4">
          <!--[if !supportLists]--><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:windowtext"><span
              style="mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style="font:7.0pt
                &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
              </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">Point
            #1: Regarding your concern on how to build a connectivity
            matrix in case we need to decompose into several sub-TLV$B!G(Bs,
            we have added the following subsection in the revision:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;;color:windowtext">5.2. Decomposing a Connectivity
            Matrix into Multiple Matrices
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;;color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp; In the highly unlikely event
            that a Connectivity matrix sub-TLV by
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;itself would result in an LSA
            exceeding the MTU, a single large
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;matrix can be decomposed into
            sub-matrices. Per [GEN-Encode] a
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;connectivity matrix just
            consists of pairs of input and output ports
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;that can reach each other and
            hence such this decomposition would be
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;straightforward. Each of
            these sub-matrices would get a unique matrix
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;identifier per [GEN-Encode].
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">Please
            let us know if you still have a question after reviewing the
            text.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    I would guess this text apply to
    draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
      charset=ISO-2022-JP">
    since the issue is not specific to OSPF. Is the text here above you
    use "port" while should be "link set".<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <a
href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-05.txt"></a>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:%20%3C7AEB3D6833318045B4AE71C2C87E8E171817C223@DFWEML501-MBX.china.huawei.com"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoListParagraph"
          style="margin-left:.25in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1
          lfo4">
          <!--[if !supportLists]--><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:windowtext"><span
              style="mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style="font:7.0pt
                &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
              </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">Point
            &nbsp;#2: In addition, the revision proposed a new solution that
            allows multiple sub-TLV$B!G(Bs defined in a top-level TLV. Please
            see Section 2 in which we added the following text:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp; This document defines a new
            top TLV named the Generic Node Attribute
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;TLV which carries attributes
            related to a general network element.
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;This Generic Node Attribute
            TLV contains one or more sub-TLVs
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;;color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">And
            in Section 7.1, we added
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp; This document introduces a
            new Top Level Node TLV (Generic Node
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Attribute TLV) under the OSPF
            TE LSA defined in [RFC3630].
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;;color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Value&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; TLV Type
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;;color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; TBA&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Generic Node
            Attribute
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;;color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">Please
            let us know if this seems to be a viable solution. If not,
            please suggest an alternative solution.
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    Btw, I did not comment here although I lean toward this ...&nbsp; since
    adding a new top level tlv sounds familiar.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:%20%3C7AEB3D6833318045B4AE71C2C87E8E171817C223@DFWEML501-MBX.china.huawei.com"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoListParagraph"
          style="margin-left:.25in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1
          lfo4">
          <!--[if !supportLists]--><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:windowtext"><span
              style="mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style="font:7.0pt
                &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
              </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">Point
            #3: Finally, concerning your question/comment:
          </span><span style="color:windowtext">Since it has to be
            "generic" we don't know in principle. Does not look a
            problem for *unconstrained* wson nodes. Don't know if others
            has different options for wson technology or may be possible
            other technologies (otn?).<br>
            <br>
          </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">I
            am not clear what you are asking for here. But if I guess,
            you are concerned about $B!H(Bgeneric$B!I(B technology connectivity
            matrix. Please note that the reason why we needed the
            connectivity matrix in WSON was due to the nature of
            asymmetric nature of ROADM switching technology.
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    although WSON technology in evolving in removing constrains I was
    trying to figure out numbers for a pretty unconstrained node (and
    still the result is not negligible).<br>
    <br>
    Again, by comment was not in proposing a new encoding in
    connectivity matrix but just figure out what sizes we could expect.&nbsp;
    Hence my request to get some realistic examples in Appendix A (but I
    could provide text for that).<br>
    <br>
    Cheers<br>
    G<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:%20%3C7AEB3D6833318045B4AE71C2C87E8E171817C223@DFWEML501-MBX.china.huawei.com"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">If
            switches are symmetric, we don$B!G(Bt need to advertise the
            connectivity matrix. This means any port can be switched to
            any other ports. Please see the last paragraph of Section 2:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp; In some specific
            technologies, e.g., WSON networks, Connectivity
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Matrix sub-TLV may be
            optional, which depends on the control plane
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;implementations. Usually, for
            example, in WSON networks, Connectivity
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Matrix sub-TLV may appear in
            the LSAs because WSON switches are
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;asymmetric at present. It is
            assumed that the switches are symmetric
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;switching, if there is no
            Connectivity Matrix sub-TLV in the LSAs.&nbsp;
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;;color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">Please
            let us know if you still have a question after reviewing the
            text.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#548DD4"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">Best
            Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">Young</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                Giovanni Martinelli [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:giomarti@cisco.com">mailto:giomarti@cisco.com</a>]
                <br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 20, 2011 2:36 AM<br>
                <b>To:</b> Leeyoung<br>
                <b>Cc:</b> Acee Lindem; CCAMP<br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCAMP] FW: I-D Action:
                draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-05.txt<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Hi,<br>
          <br>
          On 9/19/11 10:29 PM, Leeyoung wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi
            Giovanni,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Your
            worst case analysis for 16 degree node connectivity matrix
            is subject to verification,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">but
              even if this is a right number, 300 bytes is well under
              1500 byte MTU limit, so we can package it without
              sub-dividing the TLV. &nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal">yes , I was not concerned about mtu but how
          to build a correct connectivity matrix beyond a simple 2
          degree node. If you provide few more numbers there's probably
          a better feeling of "how many" bytes are (well beyond the mtu
          but well above the 75 bytes in the example).<br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">We
            can easily partition the connectivity matrix even if it goes
            beyond the MTU limit.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Agree that's a good solution&nbsp; but my
          comment here is related to how do we partition. Would it worth
          to add some text about it? We could probably guess (e.g.
          linkset couple) but just to make sure all readers will have
          same interpretation.
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The
            last email to the CCAMP was concerning how to do it.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoListParagraph"
          style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><span
              style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt
                &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
              </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">We
            can lift off RFC 5786 restriction to be able to send
            multiple TLVs under the current Node Attribute TLV.
          </span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoListParagraph"
          style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><span
              style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt
                &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
              </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Define
            a new top level TLV to do that.
          </span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">I know and I was not replaying on last
          email but trying to providing numbers for the connectivity
          matrix.&nbsp;
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I
            don$B!G(Bt think the scale of the connectivity matrix is a big
            issue.
          </span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Since it has to be "generic" we don't know
          in principle. Does not look a problem for *unconstrained* wson
          nodes. Don't know if others has different options for wson
          technology or may be possible other technologies (otn?).<br>
          <br>
          Cheers<br>
          G<br>
          <br>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Young</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a>
                [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>Giovanni Martinelli<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Monday, September 19, 2011 3:09 PM<br>
                <b>To:</b> Acee Lindem<br>
                <b>Cc:</b> CCAMP<br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCAMP] FW: I-D Action:
                draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-05.txt</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Hi,<br>
          <br>
          On 9/13/11 11:04 PM, Acee Lindem wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
        <pre>Hi Fatai,<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>I only have two comments on this document:<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>&nbsp; 1. Reference RFC 5250 rather than RFC 2370 as the former obsoleted the latter. <o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;2. Possibly this draft should remove the RFC 5786 restriction that only a single OSPF TE LSA containing a top-level TLV is allowed. <o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Couldn't the connectivity matrix become quite large? <o:p></o:p></pre>
        <p class="MsoNormal">as far as I've see there is a couple of&nbsp;
          examples here <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-05">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-05</a>
          within appendix A3 and A4.&nbsp; So asking authors, any other
          numbers around?<br>
          <br>
          My comment here is that those numbers refers essentially to 2
          degree node. I would ask if draft can report some information
          (formula in the optimal case) that allow to figure out how the
          connectivity matrix scale.<br>
          <br>
          E.g. Thinking about a 16 degree node my guess reading the
          appendix A4: the last part of the TLV (from "note : line to
          line" on) we need to add one more 32 bits to identify the
          out-range, and we need to replicate this link-set tuple 15
          times.&nbsp; So in total the "line to line" become 5*15*4 = 300
          bytes<br>
          <br>
          Is my guess correct?<br>
          <br>
          Cheers<br>
          G<br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Acee<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>On Sep 12, 2011, at 11:40 PM, Zhangfatai wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <pre>Hi Acee,<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Sorry for a mistake, :-)<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>I should say "when I update draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-00.txt" instead of "draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-05.txt".<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Thanks<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Fatai<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>From: Zhangfatai <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Sent: 2011<span lang="JA">$BG/(B</span>9<span lang="JA">$B7n(B</span>13<span lang="JA">$BF|(B</span> 11:38<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>To: 'Acee Lindem'; Greg Bernstein; Leeyoung<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Cc: CCAMP<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Subject: RE: [CCAMP] FW: I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-05.txt<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Hi Acee,<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>I personally agree with your comments on "multi-instance LSA".<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>I will take your suggestions into account when I update "draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-05.txt".<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Thanks<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Fatai<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>From: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Acee Lindem<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Sent: 2011<span lang="JA">$BG/(B</span>9<span lang="JA">$B7n(B</span>13<span lang="JA">$BF|(B</span> 6:58<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>To: Greg Bernstein; Leeyoung<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Cc: CCAMP<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Subject: Re: [CCAMP] FW: I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-05.txt<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Hi Young, Greg,<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>I have the following comments:<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp; 1. Specify that the Optical Node Property TLV cardinality and order rules per LSA. <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;For example (from RFC 3630): <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "The Link TLV describes a single link.&nbsp; It is constructed of a set of<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; sub-TLVs.&nbsp; There are no ordering requirements for the sub-TLVs.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Only one Link TLV shall be carried in each LSA, allowing for fine&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;granularity changes in topology."<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; However, use the term "advertised" rather than "carried". After all, these are<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Link State Advertisements. <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp; 2. The same comment for all the Sub-TLVs. Here is another example from <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;RFC 3630:<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "The Link Type and Link ID sub-TLVs are mandatory, i.e., must appear<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; exactly once.&nbsp; All other sub-TLVs defined here may occur at most<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; once.&nbsp; These restrictions need not apply to future sub-TLVs.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Unrecognized sub-TLVs are ignored."<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The new Sub-TLVs you are defining need this level of specification. <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp; 3. I know I told you not to use the term "multi-instance LSA". I still don't like<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the usage of "LSA instance" in the draft. In the base OSPF specification, RFC 2328, <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;the term LSA instance is used to denote a particular version of the same LSA - NOT<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; an opaque identifier for multiple LSAs of the same type. Refer to section 12.1 in <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;RFC 2328. <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The OSPF Opaque LSA RFC (RFC 2370 and its successor RFC 5250) correctly <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;identify the last 24 bits of the LSA ID as the Opaque ID. While RFC 3630 refers<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to this field as the "Instance", I believe this term should be avoided given the <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;semantics in the OSPF base specification. Hence, I'd suggest the <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;following changes:<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>225,226c225,226<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&lt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the rest and make use of multiple TE LSA instances per source, per<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&lt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [RFC3630] multiple instance capability.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>---<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <pre>&nbsp; the rest and be advertised with multiple TE LSAs per OSPF router, as<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp; described in [RFC3630] and [RFC5250].<o:p></o:p></pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre>342,344c342,344<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&lt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the dynamic information sub-TLVs into separate LSAs within an Optical<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&lt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Node Property TLV using multiple TE LSA instances per source, per the<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&lt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reference [RFC3630] multiple instance capability.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>---<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <pre>&nbsp; the dynamic information sub-TLVs from the static information sub-TLVs<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp; and advertise them in OSPF TE LSAs, each with the Optical Node<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp; Property TLV at the top level ([RFC3630 and RFC5250]). <o:p></o:p></pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre>392c392<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&lt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; into smaller sub-TLVs that can be sent in separate LSA instances.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>---<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <pre>&nbsp; into smaller sub-TLVs that can be sent in separate OSPF TE LSAs.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre>399c399<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&lt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; sub-TLVs that can be sent in multiple LSA instances. The<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>---<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <pre>&nbsp; sub-TLVs that can be sent in multiple OSPF TE LSAs. The<o:p></o:p></pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre>473c473<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&lt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; into multiple LSA instances each containing a disjoint assembly of<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>---<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <pre>&nbsp; into multiple OSPF TE LSAs each containing a disjoint assembly of<o:p></o:p></pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Additionally, I'd add RFC 5250 as at least a informative reference.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp; 4. Finally, I'd suggest changing the title from "OSPF Enhancement..." to <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;"GMPLS OSPF Enhancement..." since you are not really enhancing base <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;OSPF itself.&nbsp; Of course, there are other CCAMP RFCs that do not make <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;this distinction. <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Acee <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>On Sep 9, 2011, at 3:51 PM, Leeyoung wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <pre>Hi,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>This update added a new section to discuss OSPF scalability and how to use multiple TE LSA instance technique to keep the LSA under the MTU limit. Please note that the MTU limit is 1500 bytes and the examples given in the encoding draft is far below this limit. In case the LSA size goes above the MTU, this draft discusses how to split the Sub-TLVs' defined under the Optical Node Property TLV under the MTU limit to avoid fragmentation. <o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Take a look at Section 3 and if you have questions, please feel free to discuss in the mailing list. <o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Regards,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Young<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>From: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf <o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Of <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2011 5:16 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org">i-d-announce@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Cc: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ccamp@ietf.org">ccamp@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: <o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-05.txt<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; Title&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;: OSPF Enhancement for Signal and Network Element Compatibility for Wavelength Switched Optical Networks<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; Author(s)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : Young Lee<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Greg M. Bernstein<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; Filename&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-05.txt<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; Pages&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : 14<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; Date&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : 2011-09-08<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> This document provides GMPLS OSPF routing enhancements to support<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> signal compatibility constraints associated with WSON network<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> elements. These routing enhancements are required in common optical<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> or hybrid electro-optical networks where not all of the optical<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> signals in the network are compatible with all network elements<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> participating in the network.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> This compatibility constraint model is applicable to common optical<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> or hybrid electro optical systems such as OEO switches, regenerators,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> and wavelength converters since such systems can be limited to<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> processing only certain types of WSON signals.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>A URL for this Internet-Draft is:<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compa">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compa</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>tibility-ospf-05.txt<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compat">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compat</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>ibility-ospf-05.txt _______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>CCAMP mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org">CCAMP@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>CCAMP mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org">CCAMP@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>CCAMP mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org">CCAMP@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
  </body>
</html>

--------------010500090004050902020203--

From autumn.liu@ericsson.com  Mon Oct  3 18:48:14 2011
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From: Autumn Liu <autumn.liu@ericsson.com>
To: Masanori Miyazawa <ma-miyazawa@kddilabs.jp>, "'Ben Wright'" <Ben.Wright@metaswitch.com>, "'CCAMP'" <ccamp@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 21:51:14 -0400
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] 2nd WG last call on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ted-mib
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Hi Masanori et al,

I have a question regarding the TedTable. Should MT-id be added in the entr=
y?

Thanks,
Autumn



> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20
> Of labn - Lou Berger
> Sent: 18 April 2011 20:19
> To: CCAMP
> Subject: [CCAMP] 2nd WG last call on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ted-mib
>=20
> This mail begins a 2nd WG last call on:
>=20
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ted-mib-08
>=20
> The draft has been updated after the earlier working group primarily=20
> based on MIB Dr. review and discussion on the ccamp list.
>=20
> This working group last call ends on May 2nd. This LC will be=20
> announced on the MPLS, OSPF, and ISIS WG lists.  Please send comments=20
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From pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com  Tue Oct  4 01:29:10 2011
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To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 10:31:59 +0200
Thread-Topic: R: R: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG (point 1)
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Hello Lou,

we think we have understood your motivations and we think that
we could narrow the choice to just G-PID and Signal type.

We would not consider encoding because in case of TDM it usually
contains the nature of the path  (in this case G.709 ODUk (Digital Path)=3D=
12 ) and not the container type and attributes.
 =20
We have yet a slight preference for G-PID that is motivated by the fact
the G.709, in case of structuring, explicitly foresees two different payloa=
ds named ODTUjk (for G.709v2) and ODTUk.ts (for G.709v3).
The current GPID value defined in RFC 4328 is currently associated to the O=
DTUjk only.=20
The extension of G-PID would be one to one consistent with G.709.

We have also to notice that we are using the same signal type value both
in routing and in signaling. Surely we would avoid a duplication of data
in the ISCD just to differentiate the TSGs. (for example ODU2-2.5 and ODU2-=
1.25). This could happen on interfaces that have auto-payload type on. =20

On the other hand the usage of signal type could avoid the need to perform =
consistency checks between G-PID value and signal type value. (e.g ODU4 wit=
h 2.5 TSG)=20

About G-PID we have one question. The definition you wrote in RFC3471 for G=
-PID is : "An identifier of the payload carried by an LSP, i.e., an identif=
ier of the client layer of that LSP.  This is used by the nodes at the endp=
oints of the LSP, and in some cases by the penultimate hop."

This definition standing, could you elaborate how can be derived from what =
described that G-PID is "an end-point only field " ?
Did we miss something in the definition ?

Anyway, apart the slight preference motivated above we do not have a strong=
 position on this issue. As co-authors of the draft we would like to collec=
t WG opinion included at first our co-authors' opinion and report the WG de=
cision in the drafts.  =20

Last but not least, we would like to remind that info draft reports the nee=
d for a optional dedicated object containing the hierarchies that should
be supported by the endpoints. Independently from the solution for TSG, thi=
s
object is anyway required.=20

BR=20
Pietro & Sergio

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Pietro Vittorio Grandi
Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
Tel: +39 039 686 4930
Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute. That's rel=
ativity.
(A. Einstein)


-----Original Message-----
From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]=20
Sent: luned=EC 3 ottobre 2011 16.22
To: BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
Cc: CCAMP
Subject: Re: R: R: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG (point 1)

Sergio,
	In interest in keeping the conversation focused, I've narrowed this
mail to just the first point in your prior mail.

On 10/3/2011 9:10 AM, BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO) wrote:
>=20
> Lou,
>=20
> We captured essential parts of your mail to avoid proliferation of nestin=
g.
>=20
> We think that we are converging:
> 1) we have proposed a solution for routing as all agreed TSG information =
is needed
> 2) there are two possible alternatives for signaling as detailed below.
>=20
> See response details in correspondence of the snip.
>=20
> BR
>=20
> Sergio and Pietro
>=20
> [SNIP]
>> >From your mail, I infer that you agree on (a) and (b).  Is this correct=
?
>> [[ALU]] We agree on (a) and (b).
>=20
> Good.  To me, as I mentioned in my first mail on this thread, this
> means that G-PID isn't the right place to carry this information.
>=20
> On 9/27/2011 9:20 AM, Lou Berger wrote:
>     Option 1, G-PID, is really designed to support end-point client
>     adaptation, so as an end-point only field it really only supports
>     need (a), so I don't think G-PID is the right place to indicate TSG.
>=20
> Of course this doesn't answer where is the right/best place.
>=20
> [ALU] It seems that from the first mail, the only survived options for si=
gnaling are:
>=20
> 1: GPID
> 2: Signal type
> 3: Encoding
>=20
> Signal type and encoding should be discarded because both imply that
> the current LSPs uses exclusively intermediate links/FAs exporting
> the TSG granularity embedded in the Encoding or in the signal type.
> This is not required.

huh?  WRT encoding, RFC 3471 says:

      LSP Encoding Type: 8 bits

         Indicates the encoding of the LSP being requested.
and
     Switching Type: 8 bits

         Indicates the type of switching that should be performed on a
         particular link.

In other words encoding is an end-to-end attribute that relates to the
LSP.  Switching Type relates to what is happening link by link.  While
not typically done, Switching Type could change hop-by-hop, but encoding
is persistent across an LSP.

So I see personally see no issue or conflict if encoding indicates 1.25G
TSG but the label indicates 2.5G TSG.  Or for that matter mapping a
1.25G TSG signal on an H-LSP that uses 2.5G TSGs.

WRT to signal type, RFC 4328 says:

3.2.1.  Signal Type (ST)

   This field (8 bits) indicates the type of G.709 Elementary Signal
   that comprises the requested LSP.

So, as with Encoding, this relates to the end-to-end LSP and doesn't
indicate the TSG on a particular link.  Again, TSG is covered in the
label.  So again I see no issue or conflict if signal type indicates
1.25G TSG but the label indicates 2.5G TSG.


>=20
> The G-PID might be used on the penultimate hop to select the right
> interface, but you say that it cannot be considered because by design
> it should be used only on endpoints. About this fact RFC 3471 says
> instead that exceptions are possible.

Sure.  I wrote that sentence :-)  It's also why I said:
>> On 9/27/2011 9:20 AM, Lou Berger wrote:
>>     Option 1, G-PID, is really designed to support end-point client
>>     adaptation, so as an end-point only field it really only supports
>>     need (a), so I don't think G-PID is the right place to indicate
>>     TSG.

>=20
> If our interpretation is correct, the only real possibilities for
> signaling are either allowing an exception on G-PID usage or
> introduce a dedicated object.

Yes, I think we have a disagreement on interpretation (as well as a
really good discussion!)  IMO encoding and signal type are both better
suited to the requirements than G-PID given the above.  Furthermore, per
my previous mail, I think Signal type is better then Encoding.

Has your opinion changed/been impacted by the above interpretation of
signal type and encoding?  If not, can you elaborate?

[major snip]

Much thanks,
Lou

From lberger@labn.net  Tue Oct  4 04:47:26 2011
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] R: R: Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG (point 1)
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Pietro, Sergio,

It looks like we may be converging.  We agree that encoding isn't
optimal, and you only have a slight preference for G-PID.  For me the
tipping point is on intermediate node use of TSG*.  At this point you
have said that this is never needed.  It's my understanding that this
isn't correct, and there are cases where it is needed.  Consider the
case where there is a 1.25G TSG LSP (e.g., ODU0 or ODUflex) that is
being signaled across a topology composed of ODU2 H-LSPs, some of which
can support 1.25G TSG and others that only support 2.5G TSG.  Don't the
intermediate nodes need to understand the TSG of the LSP in order to
select the proper outgoing H-LSPs?

(*) In a private mail (which the author may resend to the list) the
point was also made that by using G-PID for TSG we loose the ability to
identify the client adaptation supported by the LSP, e.g., Ethernet.

Please see below for detailed responses.

On 10/4/2011 4:31 AM, GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO) wrote:
> Hello Lou,
> 
> we think we have understood your motivations and we think that we
> could narrow the choice to just G-PID and Signal type.
> 

It looks like we may be converging.

> We would not consider encoding because in case of TDM it usually 
> contains the nature of the path  (in this case G.709 ODUk (Digital
> Path)=12 ) and not the container type and attributes.
> 

Well I don't mind us reaching the same conclusion, even if our rational
isn't the same.

> We have yet a slight preference for G-PID that is motivated by the
> fact the G.709, in case of structuring, explicitly foresees two
> different payloads named ODTUjk (for G.709v2) and ODTUk.ts (for
> G.709v3). The current GPID value defined in RFC 4328 is currently
> associated to the ODTUjk only. 

Huh?  RFC4328 says:

   The G-PID (16 bits field), as defined in [RFC3471], identifies the
   payload carried by an LSP, i.e., an identifier of the client layer of
   that LSP.  This identifier is used by the endpoints of the G.709 LSP.

   The G-PID can take one of the following values when the client
   payload is transported over the Digital Path layer, in addition to
   the payload identifiers defined in [RFC3471]:

Clearly the rfc envisions use of multiple G-PIDs based on the use of the
G.709 LSP.

> The extension of G-PID would be one to
> one consistent with G.709.

This is where our perspective diverges.

> 
> We have also to notice that we are using the same signal type value
> both in routing and in signaling. Surely we would avoid a duplication
> of data in the ISCD just to differentiate the TSGs. (for example
> ODU2-2.5 and ODU2-1.25). This could happen on interfaces that have
> auto-payload type on.

I addressed this point in my original mail:
>> Hereto, the 1.25 types would imply support for both 1.25 and 2.5
>> types in routing.

Also note that the routing draft currently says:
   A single ISCD MAY be used for the advertisement of unbundled or
   bundled links supporting homogeneous multiplexing hierarchies and the
   same Tributary Slot Granularity (TSG).  A different ISCD MUST be used
   for each different muxing hierarchy (muxing tree in the following
   examples) and different TSG supported within the TE Link, if it
   includes component links with differing characteristics.

> 
> On the other hand the usage of signal type could avoid the need to
> perform consistency checks between G-PID value and signal type value.
> (e.g ODU4 with 2.5 TSG)
> 
> About G-PID we have one question. The definition you wrote in RFC3471
> for G-PID is : "An identifier of the payload carried by an LSP, i.e.,
> an identifier of the client layer of that LSP.  This is used by the
> nodes at the endpoints of the LSP, and in some cases by the
> penultimate hop."
> 
> This definition standing, could you elaborate how can be derived from
> what described that G-PID is "an end-point only field " ? Did we miss
> something in the definition ?

Wouldn't you agree that client layer adaptation is only within the scope
of the endpoints?  The sole exception that I can think of is PHP.
Perhaps I'm missing something.

> 
> Anyway, apart the slight preference motivated above we do not have a
> strong position on this issue. As co-authors of the draft we would
> like to collect WG opinion included at first our co-authors' opinion
> and report the WG decision in the drafts.

Sure.  Per IETF process, a WG document represents WG consensus.

> 
> Last but not least, we would like to remind that info draft reports
> the need for a optional dedicated object containing the hierarchies
> that should be supported by the endpoints. Independently from the
> solution for TSG, this object is anyway required.
> 

I'm not sure which text you are referring to, but if you think it's
covered in the routing draft, then we're in sync.

Much thanks,
Lou

> BR 
> Pietro & Sergio
> 
> ============================================
> Pietro Vittorio Grandi
> Terrestrial Optics Portfolio Evolution
> Alcatel-Lucent Vimercate (Italy)
> Tel: +39 039 686 4930
> Mail: pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com
> ============================================
> Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
> Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a  minute. That's relativity.
> (A. Einstein)
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net] 
> Sent: luned 3 ottobre 2011 16.22
> To: BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> Cc: CCAMP
> Subject: Re: R: R: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG (point 1)
> 
> Sergio,
> 	In interest in keeping the conversation focused, I've narrowed this
> mail to just the first point in your prior mail.
> 
> On 10/3/2011 9:10 AM, BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO) wrote:
>>
>> Lou,
>>
>> We captured essential parts of your mail to avoid proliferation of nesting.
>>
>> We think that we are converging:
>> 1) we have proposed a solution for routing as all agreed TSG information is needed
>> 2) there are two possible alternatives for signaling as detailed below.
>>
>> See response details in correspondence of the snip.
>>
>> BR
>>
>> Sergio and Pietro
>>
>> [SNIP]
>>> >From your mail, I infer that you agree on (a) and (b).  Is this correct?
>>> [[ALU]] We agree on (a) and (b).
>>
>> Good.  To me, as I mentioned in my first mail on this thread, this
>> means that G-PID isn't the right place to carry this information.
>>
>> On 9/27/2011 9:20 AM, Lou Berger wrote:
>>     Option 1, G-PID, is really designed to support end-point client
>>     adaptation, so as an end-point only field it really only supports
>>     need (a), so I don't think G-PID is the right place to indicate TSG.
>>
>> Of course this doesn't answer where is the right/best place.
>>
>> [ALU] It seems that from the first mail, the only survived options for signaling are:
>>
>> 1: GPID
>> 2: Signal type
>> 3: Encoding
>>
>> Signal type and encoding should be discarded because both imply that
>> the current LSPs uses exclusively intermediate links/FAs exporting
>> the TSG granularity embedded in the Encoding or in the signal type.
>> This is not required.
> 
> huh?  WRT encoding, RFC 3471 says:
> 
>       LSP Encoding Type: 8 bits
> 
>          Indicates the encoding of the LSP being requested.
> and
>      Switching Type: 8 bits
> 
>          Indicates the type of switching that should be performed on a
>          particular link.
> 
> In other words encoding is an end-to-end attribute that relates to the
> LSP.  Switching Type relates to what is happening link by link.  While
> not typically done, Switching Type could change hop-by-hop, but encoding
> is persistent across an LSP.
> 
> So I see personally see no issue or conflict if encoding indicates 1.25G
> TSG but the label indicates 2.5G TSG.  Or for that matter mapping a
> 1.25G TSG signal on an H-LSP that uses 2.5G TSGs.
> 
> WRT to signal type, RFC 4328 says:
> 
> 3.2.1.  Signal Type (ST)
> 
>    This field (8 bits) indicates the type of G.709 Elementary Signal
>    that comprises the requested LSP.
> 
> So, as with Encoding, this relates to the end-to-end LSP and doesn't
> indicate the TSG on a particular link.  Again, TSG is covered in the
> label.  So again I see no issue or conflict if signal type indicates
> 1.25G TSG but the label indicates 2.5G TSG.
> 
> 
>>
>> The G-PID might be used on the penultimate hop to select the right
>> interface, but you say that it cannot be considered because by design
>> it should be used only on endpoints. About this fact RFC 3471 says
>> instead that exceptions are possible.
> 
> Sure.  I wrote that sentence :-)  It's also why I said:
>>> On 9/27/2011 9:20 AM, Lou Berger wrote:
>>>     Option 1, G-PID, is really designed to support end-point client
>>>     adaptation, so as an end-point only field it really only supports
>>>     need (a), so I don't think G-PID is the right place to indicate
>>>     TSG.
> 
>>
>> If our interpretation is correct, the only real possibilities for
>> signaling are either allowing an exception on G-PID usage or
>> introduce a dedicated object.
> 
> Yes, I think we have a disagreement on interpretation (as well as a
> really good discussion!)  IMO encoding and signal type are both better
> suited to the requirements than G-PID given the above.  Furthermore, per
> my previous mail, I think Signal type is better then Encoding.
> 
> Has your opinion changed/been impacted by the above interpretation of
> signal type and encoding?  If not, can you elaborate?
> 
> [major snip]
> 
> Much thanks,
> Lou
> 
> 
> 
> 

From sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com  Tue Oct  4 06:31:00 2011
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Lou,

See in line

Pietro and Sergio

---------------------

Pietro, Sergio,

It looks like we may be converging.  We agree that encoding isn't optimal, =
and you only have a slight preference for G-PID.  For me the tipping point =
is on intermediate node use of TSG*.  At this point you have said that this=
 is never needed.  It's my understanding that this isn't correct, and there=
 are cases where it is needed.  Consider the case where there is a 1.25G TS=
G LSP (e.g., ODU0 or ODUflex) that is being signaled across a topology comp=
osed of ODU2 H-LSPs, some of which can support 1.25G TSG and others that on=
ly support 2.5G TSG.  Don't the intermediate nodes need to understand the T=
SG of the LSP in order to select the proper outgoing H-LSPs?

[[ALU]] No. The point is that the intermediate nodes have only to consider =
the LSP signal type (ODU1, ODU2 etc..), and not the TSG that the LSP export=
s to its clients at the endpoints. So it happens that an ODU0 can only be c=
arried on H-LSPs that export 1.25 TSG to their clients (by G.709 definition=
). An ODU2 instead can be carried on H-LSPs that export either 1.25 or 2.5.=
 Where you have to consider both the LSP type and the TSG exported to LSP c=
lients is the penultimate node. On that node the interface choice has to be=
 made in such a way that the endpoint can:

1) support the signal type indicated by the LSP
2) structure the LSP with the required adaptation
3) support all the required hierarchies


(*) In a private mail (which the author may resend to the list) the point w=
as also made that by using G-PID for TSG we loose the ability to identify t=
he client adaptation supported by the LSP, e.g., Ethernet.

[[ALU]]
In OTN an ODUj LSP either carries an ODUj client or a client of different t=
echnology. When we set up a ODU3 H-LSP that will carry an ODUj client, the =
G-PID of the ODU3 H-LSP simply indicates that the client is an ODUj.
In OTN when you structure a payload you are not defining which will be the =
signal types of the carried ODU.
Once that the ODU3 H-LSP is structured, in order to carry Ethernet you shou=
ld set up a client ODUj that in turn will carry Ethernet. The G-PID of this=
 ODUj will contain Ethernet.

Instead related to this point what we can add is that in case of not-ODU cl=
ients the TSG is a useless parameter. This would imply to have up to three =
signal types for every ODU , For example you would need an ODU2-1.25, an OD=
U2-2.5 and an ODU2-neutral (e.g for Ethernet client).




Please see below for detailed responses.

On 10/4/2011 4:31 AM, GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO) wrote:
> Hello Lou,
>
> we think we have understood your motivations and we think that we
> could narrow the choice to just G-PID and Signal type.
>

It looks like we may be converging.

> We would not consider encoding because in case of TDM it usually
> contains the nature of the path  (in this case G.709 ODUk (Digital
> Path)=3D12 ) and not the container type and attributes.
>

Well I don't mind us reaching the same conclusion, even if our rational isn=
't the same.

> We have yet a slight preference for G-PID that is motivated by the
> fact the G.709, in case of structuring, explicitly foresees two
> different payloads named ODTUjk (for G.709v2) and ODTUk.ts (for
> G.709v3). The current GPID value defined in RFC 4328 is currently
> associated to the ODTUjk only.

Huh?  RFC4328 says:

   The G-PID (16 bits field), as defined in [RFC3471], identifies the
   payload carried by an LSP, i.e., an identifier of the client layer of
   that LSP.  This identifier is used by the endpoints of the G.709 LSP.

   The G-PID can take one of the following values when the client
   payload is transported over the Digital Path layer, in addition to
   the payload identifiers defined in [RFC3471]:

Clearly the rfc envisions use of multiple G-PIDs based on the use of the
G.709 LSP.

[ALU] The only value related to ODUjk is 47. The other (linked to G.709 v3)=
 can not be present ...since G.709v3 was not present at that time.

> The extension of G-PID would be one to one consistent with G.709.

This is where our perspective diverges.

[ALU] Why?

>
> We have also to notice that we are using the same signal type value
> both in routing and in signaling. Surely we would avoid a duplication
> of data in the ISCD just to differentiate the TSGs. (for example
> ODU2-2.5 and ODU2-1.25). This could happen on interfaces that have
> auto-payload type on.

I addressed this point in my original mail:
>> Hereto, the 1.25 types would imply support for both 1.25 and 2.5
>> types in routing.

Also note that the routing draft currently says:
   A single ISCD MAY be used for the advertisement of unbundled or
   bundled links supporting homogeneous multiplexing hierarchies and the
   same Tributary Slot Granularity (TSG).  A different ISCD MUST be used
   for each different muxing hierarchy (muxing tree in the following
   examples) and different TSG supported within the TE Link, if it
   includes component links with differing characteristics.


[ALU] We addressed the point also in a previous mail in which you seem to c=
onverge in the opportunity to have at least two different signal types valu=
es.
1.25 does not imply the support also for both 1.25/2.5 as reported in this =
snip of a previous mail.
Snip>
> To
> complicate things, it is not always true that an interface supporting
> 1.25 tributary slots can also support 2.5 tributary slots, because
> this specific functionality (known as fallback support setting
> auto-payload flag to ON) can be either not present in HW or disabled
> by NMS.
>

Well this is something I didn't have in my original mail.  It was my unders=
tanding from previous discussions, that fallback support was a required in =
G.709-v3.  If it is optional (either in implementation or in
operation) we need to ensure that both cases (1.25 + 2.5 support, or just 1=
.25 support) are fully covered.



>
> On the other hand the usage of signal type could avoid the need to
> perform consistency checks between G-PID value and signal type value.
> (e.g ODU4 with 2.5 TSG)
>
> About G-PID we have one question. The definition you wrote in RFC3471
> for G-PID is : "An identifier of the payload carried by an LSP, i.e.,
> an identifier of the client layer of that LSP.  This is used by the
> nodes at the endpoints of the LSP, and in some cases by the
> penultimate hop."
>
> This definition standing, could you elaborate how can be derived from
> what described that G-PID is "an end-point only field " ? Did we miss
> something in the definition ?

Wouldn't you agree that client layer adaptation is only within the scope of=
 the endpoints?  The sole exception that I can think of is PHP.
Perhaps I'm missing something.

[ALU] We have in mind a different case: supposing to have an ODU2 LSP carry=
ing an Ethernet client and suppose you have an OTU2 interface able to termi=
nate ODU2 and extract Ethernet. At penultimate this interface may be select=
ed for the ODU2 LSP and selection criteria is the G-PID value indicating Et=
hernet payload and not for example FiberChanne/ATM.

>
> Anyway, apart the slight preference motivated above we do not have a
> strong position on this issue. As co-authors of the draft we would
> like to collect WG opinion included at first our co-authors' opinion
> and report the WG decision in the drafts.

Sure.  Per IETF process, a WG document represents WG consensus.

>
> Last but not least, we would like to remind that info draft reports
> the need for a optional dedicated object containing the hierarchies
> that should be supported by the endpoints. Independently from the
> solution for TSG, this object is anyway required.
>

I'm not sure which text you are referring to, but if you think it's covered=
 in the routing draft, then we're in sync.

[ALU] The text is in the G.709-info draft , and is related to a dedicated o=
ptional object to insert in signalling , not in routing, where the supporte=
d hierarchies are already present.

Much thanks,
Lou




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<div>Lou,</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>See in line</div>
<div><font face=3D"FuturaA Bk BT, sans-serif" size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div=
>
<div>Pietro and Sergio</div>
<div><font face=3D"FuturaA Bk BT, sans-serif" size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div=
>
<div>---------------------</div>
<div><font face=3D"FuturaA Bk BT, sans-serif" size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div=
>
<div>Pietro, Sergio,</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>It looks like we may be converging.&nbsp; We agree that encoding isn't=
 optimal, and you only have a slight preference for G-PID.&nbsp; For me the=
 tipping point is on intermediate node use of TSG*.&nbsp; At this point you=
 have said that this is never needed.&nbsp; It's my
understanding that this isn't correct, and there are cases where it is need=
ed.&nbsp; Consider the case where there is a 1.25G TSG LSP (e.g., ODU0 or O=
DUflex) that is being signaled across a topology composed of ODU2 H-LSPs, s=
ome of which can support 1.25G TSG and
others that only support 2.5G TSG.&nbsp; Don't the intermediate nodes need =
to understand the TSG of the LSP in order to select the proper outgoing H-L=
SPs?</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>[[ALU]] No. The point is that the intermediate nodes have only to cons=
ider the LSP signal type (ODU1, ODU2 etc..), and not the TSG that the LSP e=
xports to its clients at the endpoints. So it happens that an ODU0 can only=
 be carried on H-LSPs that export
1.25 TSG to their clients (by G.709 definition). An ODU2 instead can be car=
ried on H-LSPs that export either 1.25 or 2.5. Where you have to consider b=
oth the LSP type and the TSG exported to LSP clients is the penultimate nod=
e. On that node the interface choice
has to be made in such a way that the endpoint can:</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>1) support the signal type indicated by the LSP</div>
<div>2) structure the LSP with the required adaptation</div>
<div>3) support all the required hierarchies</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>(*) In a private mail (which the author may resend to the list) the po=
int was also made that by using G-PID for TSG we loose the ability to ident=
ify the client adaptation supported by the LSP, e.g., Ethernet.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>[[ALU]] </div>
<div>In OTN an ODUj LSP either carries an ODUj client or a client of differ=
ent technology. When we set up a ODU3 H-LSP that will carry an ODUj client,=
 the G-PID of the ODU3 H-LSP simply indicates that the client is an ODUj. <=
/div>
<div>In OTN when you structure a payload you are not defining which will be=
 the signal types of the carried ODU.&nbsp; </div>
<div>Once that the ODU3 H-LSP is structured, in order to carry Ethernet you=
 should set up a client ODUj that in turn will carry Ethernet. The G-PID of=
 this ODUj will contain Ethernet.</div>
<div><font face=3D"FuturaA Bk BT, sans-serif" size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div=
>
<div>Instead related to this point what we can add is that in case of not-O=
DU clients the TSG is a useless parameter. This would imply to have up to t=
hree signal types for every ODU , For example you would need an ODU2-1.25, =
an ODU2-2.5 and an ODU2-neutral
(e.g for Ethernet client).</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><font face=3D"FuturaA Bk BT, sans-serif" size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div=
>
<div><font face=3D"FuturaA Bk BT, sans-serif" size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div=
>
<div><font face=3D"FuturaA Bk BT, sans-serif" size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div=
>
<div>Please see below for detailed responses.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>On 10/4/2011 4:31 AM, GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO) wrote:=
</div>
<div>&gt; Hello Lou,</div>
<div>&gt; </div>
<div>&gt; we think we have understood your motivations and we think that we=
 </div>
<div>&gt; could narrow the choice to just G-PID and Signal type.</div>
<div>&gt; </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>It looks like we may be converging.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&gt; We would not consider encoding because in case of TDM it usually =
</div>
<div>&gt; contains the nature of the path&nbsp; (in this case G.709 ODUk (D=
igital</div>
<div>&gt; Path)=3D12 ) and not the container type and attributes.</div>
<div>&gt; </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Well I don't mind us reaching the same conclusion, even if our rationa=
l isn't the same.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&gt; We have yet a slight preference for G-PID that is motivated by th=
e </div>
<div>&gt; fact the G.709, in case of structuring, explicitly foresees two <=
/div>
<div>&gt; different payloads named ODTUjk (for G.709v2) and ODTUk.ts (for <=
/div>
<div>&gt; G.709v3). The current GPID value defined in RFC 4328 is currently=
 </div>
<div>&gt; associated to the ODTUjk only.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Huh?&nbsp; RFC4328 says:</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; The G-PID (16 bits field), as defined in [RFC3471], ident=
ifies the</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; payload carried by an LSP, i.e., an identifier of the cli=
ent layer of</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; that LSP.&nbsp; This identifier is used by the endpoints =
of the G.709 LSP.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; The G-PID can take one of the following values when the c=
lient</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; payload is transported over the Digital Path layer, in ad=
dition to</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; the payload identifiers defined in [RFC3471]:</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Clearly the rfc envisions use of multiple G-PIDs based on the use of t=
he</div>
<div>G.709 LSP.</div>
<div><font face=3D"FuturaA Bk BT, sans-serif" size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div=
>
<div>[ALU] The only value related to ODUjk is 47. The other (linked to G.70=
9 v3) can not be present &#8230;since G.709v3 was not present at that time.=
</div>
<div><font face=3D"FuturaA Bk BT, sans-serif" size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div=
>
<div>&gt; The extension of G-PID would be one to one consistent with G.709.=
</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>This is where our perspective diverges.</div>
<div><font face=3D"FuturaA Bk BT, sans-serif" size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div=
>
<div>[ALU] Why? </div>
<div><font face=3D"FuturaA Bk BT, sans-serif" size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div=
>
<div>&gt; </div>
<div>&gt; We have also to notice that we are using the same signal type val=
ue </div>
<div>&gt; both in routing and in signaling. Surely we would avoid a duplica=
tion </div>
<div>&gt; of data in the ISCD just to differentiate the TSGs. (for example<=
/div>
<div>&gt; ODU2-2.5 and ODU2-1.25). This could happen on interfaces that hav=
e </div>
<div>&gt; auto-payload type on.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>I addressed this point in my original mail:</div>
<div>&gt;&gt; Hereto, the 1.25 types would imply support for both 1.25 and =
2.5 </div>
<div>&gt;&gt; types in routing.</div>
<div><font face=3D"FuturaA Bk BT, sans-serif" size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div=
>
<div>Also note that the routing draft currently says:</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; A single ISCD MAY be used for the advertisement of unbund=
led or</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; bundled links supporting homogeneous multiplexing hierarc=
hies and the</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; same Tributary Slot Granularity (TSG).&nbsp; A different =
ISCD MUST be used</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; for each different muxing hierarchy (muxing tree in the f=
ollowing</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; examples) and different TSG supported within the TE Link,=
 if it</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; includes component links with differing characteristics.<=
/div>
<div><font face=3D"FuturaA Bk BT, sans-serif" size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div=
>
<div><font face=3D"FuturaA Bk BT, sans-serif" size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div=
>
<div>[ALU] We addressed the point also in a previous mail in which you seem=
 to converge in the opportunity to have at least two different signal types=
 values.</div>
<div>1.25 does not imply the support also for both 1.25/2.5 as reported in =
this snip of a previous mail.</div>
<div>Snip&gt;</div>
<div>&gt; To</div>
<div>&gt; complicate things, it is not always true that an interface suppor=
ting</div>
<div>&gt; 1.25 tributary slots can also support 2.5 tributary slots, becaus=
e </div>
<div>&gt; this specific functionality (known as fallback support setting </=
div>
<div>&gt; auto-payload flag to ON) can be either not present in HW or disab=
led </div>
<div>&gt; by NMS.</div>
<div>&gt; </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Well this is something I didn't have in my original mail.&nbsp; It was=
 my understanding from previous discussions, that fallback support was a re=
quired in G.709-v3.&nbsp; If it is optional (either in implementation or in=
</div>
<div>operation) we need to ensure that both cases (1.25 &#43; 2.5 support, =
or just 1.25 support) are fully covered.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><font face=3D"FuturaA Bk BT, sans-serif" size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div=
>
<div><font face=3D"FuturaA Bk BT, sans-serif" size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div=
>
<div>&gt; </div>
<div>&gt; On the other hand the usage of signal type could avoid the need t=
o </div>
<div>&gt; perform consistency checks between G-PID value and signal type va=
lue.</div>
<div>&gt; (e.g ODU4 with 2.5 TSG)</div>
<div>&gt; </div>
<div>&gt; About G-PID we have one question. The definition you wrote in RFC=
3471 </div>
<div>&gt; for G-PID is : &quot;An identifier of the payload carried by an L=
SP, i.e., </div>
<div>&gt; an identifier of the client layer of that LSP.&nbsp; This is used=
 by the </div>
<div>&gt; nodes at the endpoints of the LSP, and in some cases by the </div=
>
<div>&gt; penultimate hop.&quot;</div>
<div>&gt; </div>
<div>&gt; This definition standing, could you elaborate how can be derived =
from </div>
<div>&gt; what described that G-PID is &quot;an end-point only field &quot;=
 ? Did we miss </div>
<div>&gt; something in the definition ?</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Wouldn't you agree that client layer adaptation is only within the sco=
pe of the endpoints?&nbsp; The sole exception that I can think of is PHP.</=
div>
<div>Perhaps I'm missing something.</div>
<div><font face=3D"FuturaA Bk BT, sans-serif" size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div=
>
<div>[ALU] We have in mind a different case: supposing to have an ODU2 LSP =
carrying an Ethernet client and suppose you have an OTU2 interface able to =
terminate ODU2 and extract Ethernet. At penultimate this interface may be s=
elected for the ODU2 LSP and selection
criteria is the G-PID value indicating Ethernet payload and not for example=
 FiberChanne/ATM.</div>
<div><font face=3D"FuturaA Bk BT, sans-serif" size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div=
>
<div>&gt; </div>
<div>&gt; Anyway, apart the slight preference motivated above we do not hav=
e a </div>
<div>&gt; strong position on this issue. As co-authors of the draft we woul=
d </div>
<div>&gt; like to collect WG opinion included at first our co-authors' opin=
ion </div>
<div>&gt; and report the WG decision in the drafts.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Sure.&nbsp; Per IETF process, a WG document represents WG consensus.</=
div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&gt; </div>
<div>&gt; Last but not least, we would like to remind that info draft repor=
ts </div>
<div>&gt; the need for a optional dedicated object containing the hierarchi=
es </div>
<div>&gt; that should be supported by the endpoints. Independently from the=
 </div>
<div>&gt; solution for TSG, this object is anyway required.</div>
<div>&gt; </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>I'm not sure which text you are referring to, but if you think it's co=
vered in the routing draft, then we're in sync.</div>
<div><font face=3D"FuturaA Bk BT, sans-serif" size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div=
>
<div>[ALU] The text is in the G.709-info draft , and is related to a dedica=
ted optional object to insert in signalling , not in routing, where the sup=
ported hierarchies are already present.</div>
<div><font face=3D"FuturaA Bk BT, sans-serif" size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div=
>
<div>Much thanks,</div>
<div>Lou</div>
<div><font face=3D"FuturaA Bk BT, sans-serif" size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div=
>
<div><font face=3D"FuturaA Bk BT, sans-serif" size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div=
>
<div><font face=3D"FuturaA Bk BT, sans-serif" size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div=
>
</font>
</body>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D	Action:	draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
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Hi Young,

with respect to the TE DB management of missing sub-TLVs in LSA updates,
I checked the behavior of a commercial OSPF-TE implementation.

The point is that, if the TE DB is the set of LSAs, that's how it works
as the TE DB contains only the latest version of an LSA instance
and you can not merge the content of different LSA versions
(you could keep an internal model for the links with their attributes
updated independently, but when two neighbors synchronize their DB,
they synchronize the LSA set, not the internal models).

With respect to RFC 3630, it states:

  2.4.2.  Link TLV

     The Link TLV describes a single link.

I read 'describes' as 'fully describes' (not 'partially describes');
so I don't see where it supports/suggests the division of the attributes on multiple
LSA instances and that's why I think that multiple LSA instances for the
same link is not supported by current implementations.

It's a possible implementation and it's fine to suggest it for other top level TLVs,
but it's not the one defined by RFC 3630 for TE Links, in my opinion.

My point is in avoiding ambiguities: if the support for multiple LSA instances for the
same entity top TLV is requested, it should be explicitly stated as mandatory
(possibly providing explicit rules for the subdivision, as in Chap. 3 of the draft).


Regards,
Andrea

On 10/03/2011 09:34 PM, Leeyoung wrote:
> Hi Andrea,
>
> Thanks for your interest and input to this issue.
>
> My overall point was that the current GMPLS TE LSA (per RFC 3630) does not specify detail implementations as to how to divide up the TE Link TLVs into static vs. dynamic nor how to use multiple TE LSAs. The current WSON document follows a similar document philosophy with the GMPLS predecessor.
>
> Regarding your point on how the TE DB works in regard to missing sub-TLVs are deleted seems to me a particular implementation, which is most simplistic in nature.
>
> Best Regards,
> Young
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Andrea Zanardi
> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 9:14 AM
> To: Leeyoung
> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>
> Hi Young,
>
> I was following the discussion and I have a doubt about
> your example related to the TE Link TLV.
>
> It's true that the attributes sub-TLV are not mandatory per RFC 3630,
> but I don't think that means that they can be not included in an LSA update
> if unchanged (implying that the previous value persists).
>
> As for my understanding of how OSPF-TE works, the managed TE DB entity is the LSA.
> When an LSA update is processed, the previous version is deleted from the TE DB
> and it is replaced by the new one: link attributes related to missing sub-TLV are
> deleted, so they must be present even if unchanged.
>
> In theory, the set of link attributes could be statically divided
> in two different LSAs instances (updated independently),
> but I don't think current implementations handle this scenario
> (also because, in my opinion, it's not suggested by RFC 3630 and
>    it gives no rule on how to divide them).
>
> But I ask to the mailing list if this is the correct interpretation.
>
> Regards,
> Andrea
>
> On 09/30/2011 11:16 PM, Leeyoung wrote:
>> Hi Pierre,
>>
>> I got your point. Let me ask you this question. In the current GMPLS OSPF TE Link TLV are defined under Opaque TE LSA with the following attributes:
>>
>> - TE Metric
>> - max B/W
>> - max reservable b/w
>> - unreserved b/w
>> - Admin Group
>> - Link Protection Type
>> - SRLG
>> - ISCD
>> - etc.
>>
>> And these are a mixture of static and dynamic information and yet they are assembled together as one TE Link TLV. For instance the ISCD is quite similar to Resource Block Info in that it does not change often unless there are new elements added in the node or configuration changes and yet it is packaged together with other dynamic information.
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> There are many ways to keep static/unchanged information from being flooded. Only the Link Type and Link ID which are mandatory in the TE Link TLV per RFC3630. All other sub-TLV are optional and may occur at most once (when there are enough changes from the previous period that deserve an update) and need not be included in the TE Link TLV when there is no need for updating.
>>
>> I really don't see the need for a separate top-level TLV and/or a separate LSA for the Resource Block information.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Young
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) [mailto:pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.com]
>> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 9:39 AM
>> To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
>> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>
>> Hi Young,
>>
>> I understand the content of your answer, but I'm not satisfied with it.
>> My concern deals with providing a unique reading/interpretation of the OSPF-TE extensions.
>> We would like to make sure that any implementation complying to the drafts would provide the same LSAs when applied to the same network.
>> With this perspective in mind, we wish to get drafts with sufficient documentation to make sure the LSA design process to be depicted, by design rules.
>>
>> Hence the content of your answer leaving me the "opportunity to do as I wish", is not pleasing me, I would rather have strict rules, and discussions with the WG on the design of those.
>> That is why a first design rule, we could agree on is: to gather the Resource Block Information TLVs inside a dedicated LSA, possibly with a dedicated top-level TLV (which in my mind allows to enforce this design rule).
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> - Pierre
>>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Leeyoung [mailto:leeyoung@huawei.com]
>> Envoy : mercredi 28 septembre 2011 00:06
>>  : PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE); ccamp@ietf.org
>> Objet : RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>
>> Hi Pierre,
>>
>> Please see-inline for my reply to your first point.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Young
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) [mailto:pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 3:28 AM
>> To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
>> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>
>> Hi Young, and CCAMPers,
>>
>> I was off the mailing lists for the last two weeks and being back I notice a lot of exchanges, which I'm very glad of.
>> I've also noticed many drafts have been updated.
>> Concerning this specific draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06, I wanted to comment section 3.
>> Back in Quebec, I expressed my point of view (shared with Cyril, Julien and Giovanni) that current drafts were lacking guidance regarding the way to design LSAs that were to depict an WSON node with OEOs.
>> This section 3 provides additional material to help designing the LSA.
>> I would like to know whether authors are willing to pursue further in this direction, which is to my mind a real corner stone, that would help everyone agree on a solution.
>> A first point could concern the Resource Block Information (reminder:<ResourceBlockInfo>   ::= ([<ResourceSet>]<InputConstraints>   <ProcessingCapabilities>   <OutputConstraints>):
>>        We all agree that these information are static, that we should not replicate this TLV whatever the number not the layout of OEO boards of a given type.
>> Then, we could dedicate a specific independant flooding entity. This would be defined once for all, and that would not leave room to different interpretations.
>> What about this first point?
>>
>> YOUNG>>   If I understand you correctly, what you are saying is since the Resource Block Info sub-TLV is very static in nature, advertisement of this sub-TLV should be treated differently from the rest of static-TLVs (which may change over time). Is this what you are saying?
>>
>> If my interpretation of your comment is correct,
>>
>> - The current mechanism allows what you want: Please see the first paragraph in Section 3.2
>>      "In the highly unlikely event that a WSON sub-TLV by itself would
>>      result in an LSA exceeding the MTU, all five WSON specific sub-TLVs
>>      in this document provide mechanisms that allow them to be subdivided
>>      into smaller sub-TLVs that can be sent in separate OSPF TE LSAs."
>>
>> According to this clause, you can separate the Resource Block Info Sub-TLV as the sole entry defined in the Optical Node property TLV in a separate TE LSA from the rest if you will. Nothing prevents this particular way of packaging. (Isn't this what you meant "a specific independent flooding entity"?)
>>
>> - Please let me know if this explanation satisfies you. Thanks --- Young
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Pierre
>>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Leeyoung Envoy : jeudi 15 septembre 2011 21:59  : ccamp@ietf.org Objet : Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> After 05 version publication, Acee provided a number of valuable comments and suggestions. This revision (06) reflects those changes. Please note the following updates:
>>
>> - Change the title of the draft to "GMPLS OSPF Enhancement..." from "OSPF Enhancement..." to make sure the changes apply to the GMPLS OSPF rather than the base OSPF.
>>
>> - Add specific OSPF procedures on how sub-TLVs are packaged per [RFC3630] and editorial change including avoiding "multiple instances of TE LSA" to "multiple TE LSAs".
>>
>> Your comments are always appreciated. Thanks.
>>
>> Best Regards.
>> Young
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf.org
>> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 2:48 PM
>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
>> Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>
>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.
>>
>> 	Title           : GMPLS OSPF Enhancement for Signal and Network Element Compatibility for Wavelength Switched Optical Networks
>> 	Author(s)       : Young Lee
>>                             Greg M. Bernstein
>> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>> 	Pages           : 14
>> 	Date            : 2011-09-15
>>
>>      This document provides GMPLS OSPF routing enhancements to support
>>      signal compatibility constraints associated with WSON network
>>      elements. These routing enhancements are required in common optical
>>      or hybrid electro-optical networks where not all of the optical
>>      signals in the network are compatible with all network elements
>>      participating in the network.
>>
>>      This compatibility constraint model is applicable to common optical
>>      or hybrid electro optical systems such as OEO switches, regenerators,
>>      and wavelength converters since such systems can be limited to
>>      processing only certain types of WSON signals.
>>
>>
>>
>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>
>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>
>> This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>
>
>


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To: Andrea Zanardi <andrea.zanardi@create-net.org>, Leeyoung <leeyoung@huawei.com>
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Young and Andrea,

I happen to have the same understanding as you have of the OSPF-TE implemen=
tation and update mechanisms.
I would have been refering also to pure OSPF v2 mechanisms (e.g. rfc2328#se=
ction-12.2 and section 13).
Young do you have in mind other references stating otherwise ?

Besides this point, my originating concern was to avoid ambiguities.
In the case of the Link LSA, there is no ambiguity, whatever the CP impleme=
ntation the LSA will be similar to describe the same link.
Possibly, one implementation can be less verbous than an other by omitting =
some of the optional sub-TLVs, but there will be no differences in the stru=
cture.
And currently the WG drafts allow multiple TLVs layouts, that will conduct =
to different LSA structures for different CP implementation, and even worse=
, a CP implementation may itself follow different rules depending on the no=
de structure.
These differences can come for example from the capability provided today o=
f defining Resource Block Information that describe a group of similar devi=
ces or a single device.
I am afraid these lack of consistency in the design of TLV are putting at r=
isks, CP restarts and implementation interops.
My opinion is that we could avoid these confusions, by defining some LSA de=
sign rules.

Then, I wished we could work together in providing more details to current =
section 3 of the draft.

Regards,

Pierre

-----Message d'origine-----
De : ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de A=
ndrea Zanardi
Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 octobre 2011 16:10
=C0 : Leeyoung
Cc : ccamp@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-=
ospf-06.txt

Hi Young,

with respect to the TE DB management of missing sub-TLVs in LSA updates, I =
checked the behavior of a commercial OSPF-TE implementation.

The point is that, if the TE DB is the set of LSAs, that's how it works as =
the TE DB contains only the latest version of an LSA instance and you can n=
ot merge the content of different LSA versions (you could keep an internal =
model for the links with their attributes updated independently, but when t=
wo neighbors synchronize their DB, they synchronize the LSA set, not the in=
ternal models).

With respect to RFC 3630, it states:

  2.4.2.  Link TLV

     The Link TLV describes a single link.

I read 'describes' as 'fully describes' (not 'partially describes'); so I d=
on't see where it supports/suggests the division of the attributes on multi=
ple LSA instances and that's why I think that multiple LSA instances for th=
e same link is not supported by current implementations.

It's a possible implementation and it's fine to suggest it for other top le=
vel TLVs, but it's not the one defined by RFC 3630 for TE Links, in my opin=
ion.

My point is in avoiding ambiguities: if the support for multiple LSA instan=
ces for the same entity top TLV is requested, it should be explicitly state=
d as mandatory (possibly providing explicit rules for the subdivision, as i=
n Chap. 3 of the draft).


Regards,
Andrea

On 10/03/2011 09:34 PM, Leeyoung wrote:
> Hi Andrea,
>
> Thanks for your interest and input to this issue.
>
> My overall point was that the current GMPLS TE LSA (per RFC 3630) does no=
t specify detail implementations as to how to divide up the TE Link TLVs in=
to static vs. dynamic nor how to use multiple TE LSAs. The current WSON doc=
ument follows a similar document philosophy with the GMPLS predecessor.
>
> Regarding your point on how the TE DB works in regard to missing sub-TLVs=
 are deleted seems to me a particular implementation, which is most simplis=
tic in nature.
>
> Best Regards,
> Young
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Andrea Zanardi
> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 9:14 AM
> To: Leeyoung
> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action:
> draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>
> Hi Young,
>
> I was following the discussion and I have a doubt about your example
> related to the TE Link TLV.
>
> It's true that the attributes sub-TLV are not mandatory per RFC 3630,
> but I don't think that means that they can be not included in an LSA
> update if unchanged (implying that the previous value persists).
>
> As for my understanding of how OSPF-TE works, the managed TE DB entity is=
 the LSA.
> When an LSA update is processed, the previous version is deleted from
> the TE DB and it is replaced by the new one: link attributes related
> to missing sub-TLV are deleted, so they must be present even if unchanged=
.
>
> In theory, the set of link attributes could be statically divided in
> two different LSAs instances (updated independently), but I don't
> think current implementations handle this scenario (also because, in
> my opinion, it's not suggested by RFC 3630 and
>    it gives no rule on how to divide them).
>
> But I ask to the mailing list if this is the correct interpretation.
>
> Regards,
> Andrea
>
> On 09/30/2011 11:16 PM, Leeyoung wrote:
>> Hi Pierre,
>>
>> I got your point. Let me ask you this question. In the current GMPLS OSP=
F TE Link TLV are defined under Opaque TE LSA with the following attributes=
:
>>
>> - TE Metric
>> - max B/W
>> - max reservable b/w
>> - unreserved b/w
>> - Admin Group
>> - Link Protection Type
>> - SRLG
>> - ISCD
>> - etc.
>>
>> And these are a mixture of static and dynamic information and yet they a=
re assembled together as one TE Link TLV. For instance the ISCD is quite si=
milar to Resource Block Info in that it does not change often unless there =
are new elements added in the node or configuration changes and yet it is p=
ackaged together with other dynamic information.
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> There are many ways to keep static/unchanged information from being floo=
ded. Only the Link Type and Link ID which are mandatory in the TE Link TLV =
per RFC3630. All other sub-TLV are optional and may occur at most once (whe=
n there are enough changes from the previous period that deserve an update)=
 and need not be included in the TE Link TLV when there is no need for upda=
ting.
>>
>> I really don't see the need for a separate top-level TLV and/or a separa=
te LSA for the Resource Block information.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Young
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE)
>> [mailto:pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.com]
>> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 9:39 AM
>> To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
>> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action:
>> draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>
>> Hi Young,
>>
>> I understand the content of your answer, but I'm not satisfied with it.
>> My concern deals with providing a unique reading/interpretation of the O=
SPF-TE extensions.
>> We would like to make sure that any implementation complying to the draf=
ts would provide the same LSAs when applied to the same network.
>> With this perspective in mind, we wish to get drafts with sufficient doc=
umentation to make sure the LSA design process to be depicted, by design ru=
les.
>>
>> Hence the content of your answer leaving me the "opportunity to do as I =
wish", is not pleasing me, I would rather have strict rules, and discussion=
s with the WG on the design of those.
>> That is why a first design rule, we could agree on is: to gather the Res=
ource Block Information TLVs inside a dedicated LSA, possibly with a dedica=
ted top-level TLV (which in my mind allows to enforce this design rule).
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> - Pierre
>>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Leeyoung [mailto:leeyoung@huawei.com] Envoy=E9 : mercredi 28
>> septembre 2011 00:06 =C0 : PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE); ccamp@ietf.org
>> Objet : RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action:
>> draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>
>> Hi Pierre,
>>
>> Please see-inline for my reply to your first point.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Young
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE)
>> [mailto:pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 3:28 AM
>> To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
>> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action:
>> draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>
>> Hi Young, and CCAMPers,
>>
>> I was off the mailing lists for the last two weeks and being back I noti=
ce a lot of exchanges, which I'm very glad of.
>> I've also noticed many drafts have been updated.
>> Concerning this specific draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf=
-06, I wanted to comment section 3.
>> Back in Quebec, I expressed my point of view (shared with Cyril, Julien =
and Giovanni) that current drafts were lacking guidance regarding the way t=
o design LSAs that were to depict an WSON node with OEOs.
>> This section 3 provides additional material to help designing the LSA.
>> I would like to know whether authors are willing to pursue further in th=
is direction, which is to my mind a real corner stone, that would help ever=
yone agree on a solution.
>> A first point could concern the Resource Block Information (reminder:<Re=
sourceBlockInfo>   ::=3D ([<ResourceSet>]<InputConstraints>   <ProcessingCa=
pabilities>   <OutputConstraints>):
>>        We all agree that these information are static, that we should no=
t replicate this TLV whatever the number not the layout of OEO boards of a =
given type.
>> Then, we could dedicate a specific independant flooding entity. This wou=
ld be defined once for all, and that would not leave room to different inte=
rpretations.
>> What about this first point?
>>
>> YOUNG>>   If I understand you correctly, what you are saying is since th=
e Resource Block Info sub-TLV is very static in nature, advertisement of th=
is sub-TLV should be treated differently from the rest of static-TLVs (whic=
h may change over time). Is this what you are saying?
>>
>> If my interpretation of your comment is correct,
>>
>> - The current mechanism allows what you want: Please see the first parag=
raph in Section 3.2
>>      "In the highly unlikely event that a WSON sub-TLV by itself would
>>      result in an LSA exceeding the MTU, all five WSON specific sub-TLVs
>>      in this document provide mechanisms that allow them to be subdivide=
d
>>      into smaller sub-TLVs that can be sent in separate OSPF TE LSAs."
>>
>> According to this clause, you can separate the Resource Block Info
>> Sub-TLV as the sole entry defined in the Optical Node property TLV in
>> a separate TE LSA from the rest if you will. Nothing prevents this
>> particular way of packaging. (Isn't this what you meant "a specific
>> independent flooding entity"?)
>>
>> - Please let me know if this explanation satisfies you. Thanks ---
>> Young
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Pierre
>>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] De la
>> part de Leeyoung Envoy=E9 : jeudi 15 septembre 2011 21:59 =C0 :
>> ccamp@ietf.org Objet : Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action:
>> draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> After 05 version publication, Acee provided a number of valuable comment=
s and suggestions. This revision (06) reflects those changes. Please note t=
he following updates:
>>
>> - Change the title of the draft to "GMPLS OSPF Enhancement..." from "OSP=
F Enhancement..." to make sure the changes apply to the GMPLS OSPF rather t=
han the base OSPF.
>>
>> - Add specific OSPF procedures on how sub-TLVs are packaged per [RFC3630=
] and editorial change including avoiding "multiple instances of TE LSA" to=
 "multiple TE LSAs".
>>
>> Your comments are always appreciated. Thanks.
>>
>> Best Regards.
>> Young
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On
>> Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf.org
>> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 2:48 PM
>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
>> Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action:
>> draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>
>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direc=
tories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Pla=
ne Working Group of the IETF.
>>
>>      Title           : GMPLS OSPF Enhancement for Signal and Network Ele=
ment Compatibility for Wavelength Switched Optical Networks
>>      Author(s)       : Young Lee
>>                             Greg M. Bernstein
>>      Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-0=
6.txt
>>      Pages           : 14
>>      Date            : 2011-09-15
>>
>>      This document provides GMPLS OSPF routing enhancements to support
>>      signal compatibility constraints associated with WSON network
>>      elements. These routing enhancements are required in common optical
>>      or hybrid electro-optical networks where not all of the optical
>>      signals in the network are compatible with all network elements
>>      participating in the network.
>>
>>      This compatibility constraint model is applicable to common optical
>>      or hybrid electro optical systems such as OEO switches, regenerator=
s,
>>      and wavelength converters since such systems can be limited to
>>      processing only certain types of WSON signals.
>>
>>
>>
>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-comp
>> atibility-ospf-06.txt
>>
>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>
>> This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compa
>> tibility-ospf-06.txt _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>
>
>


--
--------------------------------------------------------
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CREATE-NET
Engineering & Fast Prototyping (ENGINE) Area Senior Engineer Via alla Casca=
ta 56/D - 38123 Povo Trento (Italy)
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Tel: (+39) 0461 408400 - interno/extension 1407
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From acee.lindem@ericsson.com  Tue Oct  4 10:00:38 2011
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From: Acee Lindem <acee.lindem@ericsson.com>
To: Andrea Zanardi <andrea.zanardi@create-net.org>
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 13:03:21 -0400
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Hi Andrea,

On Oct 4, 2011, at 10:10 AM, Andrea Zanardi wrote:

> Hi Young,
>
> with respect to the TE DB management of missing sub-TLVs in LSA updates,
> I checked the behavior of a commercial OSPF-TE implementation.
>
> The point is that, if the TE DB is the set of LSAs, that's how it works
> as the TE DB contains only the latest version of an LSA instance
> and you can not merge the content of different LSA versions
> (you could keep an internal model for the links with their attributes
> updated independently, but when two neighbors synchronize their DB,
> they synchronize the LSA set, not the internal models).
>
> With respect to RFC 3630, it states:
>
>  2.4.2.  Link TLV
>
>     The Link TLV describes a single link.
>
> I read 'describes' as 'fully describes' (not 'partially describes');
> so I don't see where it supports/suggests the division of the attributes =
on multiple
> LSA instances and that's why I think that multiple LSA instances for the
> same link is not supported by current implementations.
>
> It's a possible implementation and it's fine to suggest it for other top =
level TLVs,
> but it's not the one defined by RFC 3630 for TE Links, in my opinion.
>
> My point is in avoiding ambiguities: if the support for multiple LSA inst=
ances for the
> same entity top TLV is requested, it should be explicitly stated as manda=
tory
> (possibly providing explicit rules for the subdivision, as in Chap. 3 of =
the draft).

There are not multiple instances of the same LSA. Rather they are unique LS=
As, as identified by the (Type, Link State ID, Advertising Router) tuple. I=
n this case, they have different Link State IDs. One thing that is confusin=
g is that RFC 3630 refers to the portion of the Link State ID providing uni=
queness as "Instance". Also note that draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatib=
ility-ospf-06.txt doesn't include any additions to the Link TLV so I'm not =
sure why you are citing it in discussions of the new top-level TLVs.

Thanks,
Acee



>
>
> Regards,
> Andrea
>
> On 10/03/2011 09:34 PM, Leeyoung wrote:
>> Hi Andrea,
>>
>> Thanks for your interest and input to this issue.
>>
>> My overall point was that the current GMPLS TE LSA (per RFC 3630) does n=
ot specify detail implementations as to how to divide up the TE Link TLVs i=
nto static vs. dynamic nor how to use multiple TE LSAs. The current WSON do=
cument follows a similar document philosophy with the GMPLS predecessor.
>>
>> Regarding your point on how the TE DB works in regard to missing sub-TLV=
s are deleted seems to me a particular implementation, which is most simpli=
stic in nature.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Young
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf O=
f Andrea Zanardi
>> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 9:14 AM
>> To: Leeyoung
>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibil=
ity-ospf-06.txt
>>
>> Hi Young,
>>
>> I was following the discussion and I have a doubt about
>> your example related to the TE Link TLV.
>>
>> It's true that the attributes sub-TLV are not mandatory per RFC 3630,
>> but I don't think that means that they can be not included in an LSA upd=
ate
>> if unchanged (implying that the previous value persists).
>>
>> As for my understanding of how OSPF-TE works, the managed TE DB entity i=
s the LSA.
>> When an LSA update is processed, the previous version is deleted from th=
e TE DB
>> and it is replaced by the new one: link attributes related to missing su=
b-TLV are
>> deleted, so they must be present even if unchanged.
>>
>> In theory, the set of link attributes could be statically divided
>> in two different LSAs instances (updated independently),
>> but I don't think current implementations handle this scenario
>> (also because, in my opinion, it's not suggested by RFC 3630 and
>>   it gives no rule on how to divide them).
>>
>> But I ask to the mailing list if this is the correct interpretation.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Andrea
>>
>> On 09/30/2011 11:16 PM, Leeyoung wrote:
>>> Hi Pierre,
>>>
>>> I got your point. Let me ask you this question. In the current GMPLS OS=
PF TE Link TLV are defined under Opaque TE LSA with the following attribute=
s:
>>>
>>> - TE Metric
>>> - max B/W
>>> - max reservable b/w
>>> - unreserved b/w
>>> - Admin Group
>>> - Link Protection Type
>>> - SRLG
>>> - ISCD
>>> - etc.
>>>
>>> And these are a mixture of static and dynamic information and yet they =
are assembled together as one TE Link TLV. For instance the ISCD is quite s=
imilar to Resource Block Info in that it does not change often unless there=
 are new elements added in the node or configuration changes and yet it is =
packaged together with other dynamic information.
>>>
>>> Why?
>>>
>>> There are many ways to keep static/unchanged information from being flo=
oded. Only the Link Type and Link ID which are mandatory in the TE Link TLV=
 per RFC3630. All other sub-TLV are optional and may occur at most once (wh=
en there are enough changes from the previous period that deserve an update=
) and need not be included in the TE Link TLV when there is no need for upd=
ating.
>>>
>>> I really don't see the need for a separate top-level TLV and/or a separ=
ate LSA for the Resource Block information.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Young
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) [mailto:pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.com]
>>> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 9:39 AM
>>> To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
>>> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibi=
lity-ospf-06.txt
>>>
>>> Hi Young,
>>>
>>> I understand the content of your answer, but I'm not satisfied with it.
>>> My concern deals with providing a unique reading/interpretation of the =
OSPF-TE extensions.
>>> We would like to make sure that any implementation complying to the dra=
fts would provide the same LSAs when applied to the same network.
>>> With this perspective in mind, we wish to get drafts with sufficient do=
cumentation to make sure the LSA design process to be depicted, by design r=
ules.
>>>
>>> Hence the content of your answer leaving me the "opportunity to do as I=
 wish", is not pleasing me, I would rather have strict rules, and discussio=
ns with the WG on the design of those.
>>> That is why a first design rule, we could agree on is: to gather the Re=
source Block Information TLVs inside a dedicated LSA, possibly with a dedic=
ated top-level TLV (which in my mind allows to enforce this design rule).
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> - Pierre
>>>
>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>> De : Leeyoung [mailto:leeyoung@huawei.com]
>>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 28 septembre 2011 00:06
>>> =C0 : PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE); ccamp@ietf.org
>>> Objet : RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibil=
ity-ospf-06.txt
>>>
>>> Hi Pierre,
>>>
>>> Please see-inline for my reply to your first point.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Young
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) [mailto:pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.com]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 3:28 AM
>>> To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
>>> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibi=
lity-ospf-06.txt
>>>
>>> Hi Young, and CCAMPers,
>>>
>>> I was off the mailing lists for the last two weeks and being back I not=
ice a lot of exchanges, which I'm very glad of.
>>> I've also noticed many drafts have been updated.
>>> Concerning this specific draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-osp=
f-06, I wanted to comment section 3.
>>> Back in Quebec, I expressed my point of view (shared with Cyril, Julien=
 and Giovanni) that current drafts were lacking guidance regarding the way =
to design LSAs that were to depict an WSON node with OEOs.
>>> This section 3 provides additional material to help designing the LSA.
>>> I would like to know whether authors are willing to pursue further in t=
his direction, which is to my mind a real corner stone, that would help eve=
ryone agree on a solution.
>>> A first point could concern the Resource Block Information (reminder:<R=
esourceBlockInfo>   ::=3D ([<ResourceSet>]<InputConstraints>   <ProcessingC=
apabilities>   <OutputConstraints>):
>>>       We all agree that these information are static, that we should no=
t replicate this TLV whatever the number not the layout of OEO boards of a =
given type.
>>> Then, we could dedicate a specific independant flooding entity. This wo=
uld be defined once for all, and that would not leave room to different int=
erpretations.
>>> What about this first point?
>>>
>>> YOUNG>>   If I understand you correctly, what you are saying is since t=
he Resource Block Info sub-TLV is very static in nature, advertisement of t=
his sub-TLV should be treated differently from the rest of static-TLVs (whi=
ch may change over time). Is this what you are saying?
>>>
>>> If my interpretation of your comment is correct,
>>>
>>> - The current mechanism allows what you want: Please see the first para=
graph in Section 3.2
>>>     "In the highly unlikely event that a WSON sub-TLV by itself would
>>>     result in an LSA exceeding the MTU, all five WSON specific sub-TLVs
>>>     in this document provide mechanisms that allow them to be subdivide=
d
>>>     into smaller sub-TLVs that can be sent in separate OSPF TE LSAs."
>>>
>>> According to this clause, you can separate the Resource Block Info Sub-=
TLV as the sole entry defined in the Optical Node property TLV in a separat=
e TE LSA from the rest if you will. Nothing prevents this particular way of=
 packaging. (Isn't this what you meant "a specific independent flooding ent=
ity"?)
>>>
>>> - Please let me know if this explanation satisfies you. Thanks --- Youn=
g
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Pierre
>>>
>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>> De : ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] De la part =
de Leeyoung Envoy=E9 : jeudi 15 septembre 2011 21:59 =C0 : ccamp@ietf.org O=
bjet : Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-o=
spf-06.txt
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> After 05 version publication, Acee provided a number of valuable commen=
ts and suggestions. This revision (06) reflects those changes. Please note =
the following updates:
>>>
>>> - Change the title of the draft to "GMPLS OSPF Enhancement..." from "OS=
PF Enhancement..." to make sure the changes apply to the GMPLS OSPF rather =
than the base OSPF.
>>>
>>> - Add specific OSPF procedures on how sub-TLVs are packaged per [RFC363=
0] and editorial change including avoiding "multiple instances of TE LSA" t=
o "multiple TE LSAs".
>>>
>>> Your comments are always appreciated. Thanks.
>>>
>>> Best Regards.
>>> Young
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of internet-drafts@ietf.org
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 2:48 PM
>>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
>>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
>>> Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility=
-ospf-06.txt
>>>
>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dire=
ctories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Pl=
ane Working Group of the IETF.
>>>
>>>     Title           : GMPLS OSPF Enhancement for Signal and Network Ele=
ment Compatibility for Wavelength Switched Optical Networks
>>>     Author(s)       : Young Lee
>>>                            Greg M. Bernstein
>>>     Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-0=
6.txt
>>>     Pages           : 14
>>>     Date            : 2011-09-15
>>>
>>>     This document provides GMPLS OSPF routing enhancements to support
>>>     signal compatibility constraints associated with WSON network
>>>     elements. These routing enhancements are required in common optical
>>>     or hybrid electro-optical networks where not all of the optical
>>>     signals in the network are compatible with all network elements
>>>     participating in the network.
>>>
>>>     This compatibility constraint model is applicable to common optical
>>>     or hybrid electro optical systems such as OEO switches, regenerator=
s,
>>>     and wavelength converters since such systems can be limited to
>>>     processing only certain types of WSON signals.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compat=
ibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>
>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>
>>> This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compati=
bility-ospf-06.txt
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Andrea Zanardi
> CREATE-NET
> Engineering & Fast Prototyping (ENGINE) Area
> Senior Engineer
> Via alla Cascata 56/D - 38123 Povo Trento (Italy)
> e-mail: andrea.zanardi@create-net.org
> Tel: (+39) 0461 408400 - interno/extension 1407
> Mobile: (+39) 340 0011837
> Fax: (+39) 0461 421157
> Skype: zanardi_andrea
> www.create-net.org
> --------------------------------------------------------
>
> The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to
> which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged
> material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or
> taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or
> entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited according to the
> Italian Law 196/2003 of the Legislature. If you received this in error,
> please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer.
>
> Le informazioni contenute in questo messaggio di posta elettronica e nei
> file allegati sono da considerarsi strettamente riservate. Il loro utiliz=
zo
> e' consentito esclusivamente al destinatario del messaggio, per le finali=
ta'
> indicate nel messaggio stesso. Qualora riceveste questo messaggio senza
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gs.
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From andrea.zanardi@create-net.org  Tue Oct  4 12:00:44 2011
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D	Action:	draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
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Hi Acee,

On 10/04/2011 07:03 PM, Acee Lindem wrote:
> Hi Andrea,
>
> On Oct 4, 2011, at 10:10 AM, Andrea Zanardi wrote:
....
>
>>
>> My point is in avoiding ambiguities: if the support for multiple LSA instances for the
>> same entity top TLV is requested, it should be explicitly stated as mandatory
>> (possibly providing explicit rules for the subdivision, as in Chap. 3 of the draft).
>
> There are not multiple instances of the same LSA. Rather they are unique LSAs,
 > as identified by the (Type, Link State ID, Advertising Router) tuple.
 > In this case, they have different Link State IDs.
 > One thing that is confusing is that RFC 3630 refers to the portion of the Link State ID
 > providing uniqueness as "Instance".
 > Also note that draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt doesn't include any
 > additions to the Link TLV so I'm not sure why you are citing it in discussions of the new top-level TLVs.

I was replying to Young email providing the Link TLV and
RFC 3630 as an example of the usage of multiple LSAs and of
sending LSA updates with missing sub-TLVs;
I was discussing about the correctness of the example,
that's why I was citing the Link TLV.

The usage of the word "instance" is probably not correct.

What I meant by "multiple LSA instances" was different LSAs (with distinct LS ID
and both present in the TE DB at the same time) describing the same entity
(e.g. the same link by including the same Link Type / Link ID sub-TLVs)
each one providing a subset of the information (e.g. a subset of the other sub-TLVs).

Considering the draft TLVs, this should be the case of Chap. 3.2.1 "Sub-Division by Options", e.g.:
two LSAs with a Resource Block Information sub-TLV with the same RB Set Field
and different sub-sets of optional sub-sub-TLVs.

To avoid ambiguities, it should be clear that the options described in Chap. 3
are the only options and that, even if they "can" be used when generating
the LSAs, they "must" all be supported when receiving and 'using' the LSAs.


Regards,
Andrea

> Thanks,
> Acee
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Andrea
>>
>> On 10/03/2011 09:34 PM, Leeyoung wrote:
>>> Hi Andrea,
>>>
>>> Thanks for your interest and input to this issue.
>>>
>>> My overall point was that the current GMPLS TE LSA (per RFC 3630) does not specify detail implementations as to how to divide up the TE Link TLVs into static vs. dynamic nor how to use multiple TE LSAs. The current WSON document follows a similar document philosophy with the GMPLS predecessor.
>>>
>>> Regarding your point on how the TE DB works in regard to missing sub-TLVs are deleted seems to me a particular implementation, which is most simplistic in nature.
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>> Young
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Andrea Zanardi
>>> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 9:14 AM
>>> To: Leeyoung
>>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>
>>> Hi Young,
>>>
>>> I was following the discussion and I have a doubt about
>>> your example related to the TE Link TLV.
>>>
>>> It's true that the attributes sub-TLV are not mandatory per RFC 3630,
>>> but I don't think that means that they can be not included in an LSA update
>>> if unchanged (implying that the previous value persists).
>>>
>>> As for my understanding of how OSPF-TE works, the managed TE DB entity is the LSA.
>>> When an LSA update is processed, the previous version is deleted from the TE DB
>>> and it is replaced by the new one: link attributes related to missing sub-TLV are
>>> deleted, so they must be present even if unchanged.
>>>
>>> In theory, the set of link attributes could be statically divided
>>> in two different LSAs instances (updated independently),
>>> but I don't think current implementations handle this scenario
>>> (also because, in my opinion, it's not suggested by RFC 3630 and
>>>    it gives no rule on how to divide them).
>>>
>>> But I ask to the mailing list if this is the correct interpretation.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Andrea
>>>
>>> On 09/30/2011 11:16 PM, Leeyoung wrote:
>>>> Hi Pierre,
>>>>
>>>> I got your point. Let me ask you this question. In the current GMPLS OSPF TE Link TLV are defined under Opaque TE LSA with the following attributes:
>>>>
>>>> - TE Metric
>>>> - max B/W
>>>> - max reservable b/w
>>>> - unreserved b/w
>>>> - Admin Group
>>>> - Link Protection Type
>>>> - SRLG
>>>> - ISCD
>>>> - etc.
>>>>
>>>> And these are a mixture of static and dynamic information and yet they are assembled together as one TE Link TLV. For instance the ISCD is quite similar to Resource Block Info in that it does not change often unless there are new elements added in the node or configuration changes and yet it is packaged together with other dynamic information.
>>>>
>>>> Why?
>>>>
>>>> There are many ways to keep static/unchanged information from being flooded. Only the Link Type and Link ID which are mandatory in the TE Link TLV per RFC3630. All other sub-TLV are optional and may occur at most once (when there are enough changes from the previous period that deserve an update) and need not be included in the TE Link TLV when there is no need for updating.
>>>>
>>>> I really don't see the need for a separate top-level TLV and/or a separate LSA for the Resource Block information.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Young
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) [mailto:pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.com]
>>>> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 9:39 AM
>>>> To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>
>>>> Hi Young,
>>>>
>>>> I understand the content of your answer, but I'm not satisfied with it.
>>>> My concern deals with providing a unique reading/interpretation of the OSPF-TE extensions.
>>>> We would like to make sure that any implementation complying to the drafts would provide the same LSAs when applied to the same network.
>>>> With this perspective in mind, we wish to get drafts with sufficient documentation to make sure the LSA design process to be depicted, by design rules.
>>>>
>>>> Hence the content of your answer leaving me the "opportunity to do as I wish", is not pleasing me, I would rather have strict rules, and discussions with the WG on the design of those.
>>>> That is why a first design rule, we could agree on is: to gather the Resource Block Information TLVs inside a dedicated LSA, possibly with a dedicated top-level TLV (which in my mind allows to enforce this design rule).
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> - Pierre
>>>>
>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>> De : Leeyoung [mailto:leeyoung@huawei.com]
>>>> Envoy : mercredi 28 septembre 2011 00:06
>>>>  : PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE); ccamp@ietf.org
>>>> Objet : RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>
>>>> Hi Pierre,
>>>>
>>>> Please see-inline for my reply to your first point.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Young
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) [mailto:pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.com]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 3:28 AM
>>>> To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>
>>>> Hi Young, and CCAMPers,
>>>>
>>>> I was off the mailing lists for the last two weeks and being back I notice a lot of exchanges, which I'm very glad of.
>>>> I've also noticed many drafts have been updated.
>>>> Concerning this specific draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06, I wanted to comment section 3.
>>>> Back in Quebec, I expressed my point of view (shared with Cyril, Julien and Giovanni) that current drafts were lacking guidance regarding the way to design LSAs that were to depict an WSON node with OEOs.
>>>> This section 3 provides additional material to help designing the LSA.
>>>> I would like to know whether authors are willing to pursue further in this direction, which is to my mind a real corner stone, that would help everyone agree on a solution.
>>>> A first point could concern the Resource Block Information (reminder:<ResourceBlockInfo>    ::= ([<ResourceSet>]<InputConstraints>    <ProcessingCapabilities>    <OutputConstraints>):
>>>>        We all agree that these information are static, that we should not replicate this TLV whatever the number not the layout of OEO boards of a given type.
>>>> Then, we could dedicate a specific independant flooding entity. This would be defined once for all, and that would not leave room to different interpretations.
>>>> What about this first point?
>>>>
>>>> YOUNG>>    If I understand you correctly, what you are saying is since the Resource Block Info sub-TLV is very static in nature, advertisement of this sub-TLV should be treated differently from the rest of static-TLVs (which may change over time). Is this what you are saying?
>>>>
>>>> If my interpretation of your comment is correct,
>>>>
>>>> - The current mechanism allows what you want: Please see the first paragraph in Section 3.2
>>>>      "In the highly unlikely event that a WSON sub-TLV by itself would
>>>>      result in an LSA exceeding the MTU, all five WSON specific sub-TLVs
>>>>      in this document provide mechanisms that allow them to be subdivided
>>>>      into smaller sub-TLVs that can be sent in separate OSPF TE LSAs."
>>>>
>>>> According to this clause, you can separate the Resource Block Info Sub-TLV as the sole entry defined in the Optical Node property TLV in a separate TE LSA from the rest if you will. Nothing prevents this particular way of packaging. (Isn't this what you meant "a specific independent flooding entity"?)
>>>>
>>>> - Please let me know if this explanation satisfies you. Thanks --- Young
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Pierre
>>>>
>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>> De : ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Leeyoung Envoy : jeudi 15 septembre 2011 21:59  : ccamp@ietf.org Objet : Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> After 05 version publication, Acee provided a number of valuable comments and suggestions. This revision (06) reflects those changes. Please note the following updates:
>>>>
>>>> - Change the title of the draft to "GMPLS OSPF Enhancement..." from "OSPF Enhancement..." to make sure the changes apply to the GMPLS OSPF rather than the base OSPF.
>>>>
>>>> - Add specific OSPF procedures on how sub-TLVs are packaged per [RFC3630] and editorial change including avoiding "multiple instances of TE LSA" to "multiple TE LSAs".
>>>>
>>>> Your comments are always appreciated. Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Best Regards.
>>>> Young
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf.org
>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 2:48 PM
>>>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
>>>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>
>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.
>>>>
>>>>      Title           : GMPLS OSPF Enhancement for Signal and Network Element Compatibility for Wavelength Switched Optical Networks
>>>>      Author(s)       : Young Lee
>>>>                             Greg M. Bernstein
>>>>      Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>      Pages           : 14
>>>>      Date            : 2011-09-15
>>>>
>>>>      This document provides GMPLS OSPF routing enhancements to support
>>>>      signal compatibility constraints associated with WSON network
>>>>      elements. These routing enhancements are required in common optical
>>>>      or hybrid electro-optical networks where not all of the optical
>>>>      signals in the network are compatible with all network elements
>>>>      participating in the network.
>>>>
>>>>      This compatibility constraint model is applicable to common optical
>>>>      or hybrid electro optical systems such as OEO switches, regenerators,
>>>>      and wavelength converters since such systems can be limited to
>>>>      processing only certain types of WSON signals.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>
>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>>
>>>> This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> Andrea Zanardi
>> CREATE-NET
>> Engineering&  Fast Prototyping (ENGINE) Area
>> Senior Engineer
>> Via alla Cascata 56/D - 38123 Povo Trento (Italy)
>> e-mail: andrea.zanardi@create-net.org
>> Tel: (+39) 0461 408400 - interno/extension 1407
>> Mobile: (+39) 340 0011837
>> Fax: (+39) 0461 421157
>> Skype: zanardi_andrea
>> www.create-net.org
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to
>> which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged
>> material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or
>> taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or
>> entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited according to the
>> Italian Law 196/2003 of the Legislature. If you received this in error,
>> please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer.
>>
>> Le informazioni contenute in questo messaggio di posta elettronica e nei
>> file allegati sono da considerarsi strettamente riservate. Il loro utilizzo
>> e' consentito esclusivamente al destinatario del messaggio, per le finalita'
>> indicate nel messaggio stesso. Qualora riceveste questo messaggio senza
>> esserne il destinatario, Vi preghiamo cortesemente di darcene notizia via
>> e-mail e di procedere alla cancellazione del messaggio stesso dal Vostro
>> sistema. Trattenere il messaggio stesso, divulgarlo anche in parte,
>> distribuirlo ad altri soggetti, copiarlo, od utilizzarlo per finalita'
>> diverse, costituisce comportamento contrario ai principi dettati dal D. Lgs.
>> 196/2003.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>
>


-- 
--------------------------------------------------------
Andrea Zanardi
CREATE-NET
Engineering & Fast Prototyping (ENGINE) Area
Senior Engineer
Via alla Cascata 56/D - 38123 Povo Trento (Italy)
e-mail: andrea.zanardi@create-net.org
Tel: (+39) 0461 408400 - interno/extension 1407
Mobile: (+39) 340 0011837
Fax: (+39) 0461 421157
Skype: zanardi_andrea
www.create-net.org
--------------------------------------------------------

The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to
which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged
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taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or
entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited according to the
Italian Law 196/2003 of the Legislature. If you received this in error,
please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer.

Le informazioni contenute in questo messaggio di posta elettronica e nei
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e' consentito esclusivamente al destinatario del messaggio, per le finalita'
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distribuirlo ad altri soggetti, copiarlo, od utilizzarlo per finalita'
diverse, costituisce comportamento contrario ai principi dettati dal D. Lgs.
196/2003.


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From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" <db3546@att.com>
To: "ccamp@ietf.org" <ccamp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: WG Last Call on draft-ietf-ccamp-rfc5787bis-03.txt-Closed
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-ccamp-rfc5787bis-03.txt-Closed
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This working group last call has ended. We will request the document be for=
warded for publishing.

-----Original Message-----
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of B=
RUNGARD, DEBORAH A
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 11:27 AM
To: ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: [CCAMP] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-ccamp-rfc5787bis-03.txt

All,

This is start a two-week working group last call on draft-ietf-ccamp-rfc578=
7bis-03.txt.

This working group last call ends Oct. 3rd. Please send your comments to th=
e CCAMP mailing list.

Deborah (and Lou)


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From daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com  Wed Oct  5 03:08:01 2011
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From: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 12:10:25 +0200
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Poll on making G.709 Routing and Signaling drafts WG documents
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Poll on making G.709 Routing and Signaling drafts WG	documents
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Yes/support to both

BR
Daniele



-----Original Message-----
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of L=
ou Berger
Sent: mercoled=EC 28 settembre 2011 18.32
To: CCAMP
Subject: [CCAMP] Poll on making G.709 Routing and Signaling drafts WG docum=
ents

This message starts a two week poll on making the documents listed below cc=
amp working group documents.  Please send a mail to the mailing list indica=
ting "yes/support to both" or "no/do not support either".  Of course, you m=
ay also support one but not the other.  (We will assume that you support/ob=
ject to both if you don't specify.)

If indicating no, please state your technical reservations with the documen=
t.

The documents being polled are:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ceccarelli-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709-07
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709-09

The poll ends Wednesday October 12.

Please also bear in mind that WG adoption does not signify that work is com=
plete on the documents or that the technical details are fixed, but rather =
that further development of the documents will take place based on WG proce=
ss.

Much thanks,
Lou (and Deborah)
_______________________________________________
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From lberger@labn.net  Wed Oct  5 10:12:36 2011
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To: "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)" <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>, "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
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Guys,
	I think we're going in circles.  Let me try a different question that
hopefully can help us resolve this.

Are there *any* cases where an LSP's supported TSG impacts label
allocation/selection?

If the answer is yes, then TSG belongs in the traffic parameters.

Thanks,
Lou

PS your reference to some text in the info document, rather than
keeping us guessing, can you point to a section and paragraph number or
just copy and paste the text?

On 10/4/2011 9:33 AM, BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO) wrote:
> Lou,
>  
> See in line
>  
> Pietro and Sergio
>  
> ---------------------
>  
> Pietro, Sergio,
>  
> It looks like we may be converging.  We agree that encoding isn't
> optimal, and you only have a slight preference for G-PID.  For me the
> tipping point is on intermediate node use of TSG*.  At this point you
> have said that this is never needed.  It's my understanding that this
> isn't correct, and there are cases where it is needed.  Consider the
> case where there is a 1.25G TSG LSP (e.g., ODU0 or ODUflex) that is
> being signaled across a topology composed of ODU2 H-LSPs, some of which
> can support 1.25G TSG and others that only support 2.5G TSG.  Don't the
> intermediate nodes need to understand the TSG of the LSP in order to
> select the proper outgoing H-LSPs?
>  
> [[ALU]] No. The point is that the intermediate nodes have only to
> consider the LSP signal type (ODU1, ODU2 etc..), and not the TSG that
> the LSP exports to its clients at the endpoints. So it happens that an
> ODU0 can only be carried on H-LSPs that export 1.25 TSG to their clients
> (by G.709 definition). An ODU2 instead can be carried on H-LSPs that
> export either 1.25 or 2.5. Where you have to consider both the LSP type
> and the TSG exported to LSP clients is the penultimate node. On that
> node the interface choice has to be made in such a way that the endpoint
> can:
>  
> 1) support the signal type indicated by the LSP
> 2) structure the LSP with the required adaptation
> 3) support all the required hierarchies
>  
>  
> (*) In a private mail (which the author may resend to the list) the
> point was also made that by using G-PID for TSG we loose the ability to
> identify the client adaptation supported by the LSP, e.g., Ethernet.
>  
> [[ALU]]
> In OTN an ODUj LSP either carries an ODUj client or a client of
> different technology. When we set up a ODU3 H-LSP that will carry an
> ODUj client, the G-PID of the ODU3 H-LSP simply indicates that the
> client is an ODUj.
> In OTN when you structure a payload you are not defining which will be
> the signal types of the carried ODU. 
> Once that the ODU3 H-LSP is structured, in order to carry Ethernet you
> should set up a client ODUj that in turn will carry Ethernet. The G-PID
> of this ODUj will contain Ethernet.
>  
> Instead related to this point what we can add is that in case of not-ODU
> clients the TSG is a useless parameter. This would imply to have up to
> three signal types for every ODU , For example you would need an
> ODU2-1.25, an ODU2-2.5 and an ODU2-neutral (e.g for Ethernet client).
>  
>  
>  
>  
> Please see below for detailed responses.
>  
> On 10/4/2011 4:31 AM, GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO) wrote:
>> Hello Lou,
>>
>> we think we have understood your motivations and we think that we
>> could narrow the choice to just G-PID and Signal type.
>>
>  
> It looks like we may be converging.
>  
>> We would not consider encoding because in case of TDM it usually
>> contains the nature of the path  (in this case G.709 ODUk (Digital
>> Path)=12 ) and not the container type and attributes.
>>
>  
> Well I don't mind us reaching the same conclusion, even if our rational
> isn't the same.
>  
>> We have yet a slight preference for G-PID that is motivated by the
>> fact the G.709, in case of structuring, explicitly foresees two
>> different payloads named ODTUjk (for G.709v2) and ODTUk.ts (for
>> G.709v3). The current GPID value defined in RFC 4328 is currently
>> associated to the ODTUjk only.
>  
> Huh?  RFC4328 says:
>  
>    The G-PID (16 bits field), as defined in [RFC3471], identifies the
>    payload carried by an LSP, i.e., an identifier of the client layer of
>    that LSP.  This identifier is used by the endpoints of the G.709 LSP.
>  
>    The G-PID can take one of the following values when the client
>    payload is transported over the Digital Path layer, in addition to
>    the payload identifiers defined in [RFC3471]:
>  
> Clearly the rfc envisions use of multiple G-PIDs based on the use of the
> G.709 LSP.
>  
> [ALU] The only value related to ODUjk is 47. The other (linked to G.709
> v3) can not be present since G.709v3 was not present at that time.
>  
>> The extension of G-PID would be one to one consistent with G.709.
>  
> This is where our perspective diverges.
>  
> [ALU] Why?
>  
>>
>> We have also to notice that we are using the same signal type value
>> both in routing and in signaling. Surely we would avoid a duplication
>> of data in the ISCD just to differentiate the TSGs. (for example
>> ODU2-2.5 and ODU2-1.25). This could happen on interfaces that have
>> auto-payload type on.
>  
> I addressed this point in my original mail:
>>> Hereto, the 1.25 types would imply support for both 1.25 and 2.5
>>> types in routing.
>  
> Also note that the routing draft currently says:
>    A single ISCD MAY be used for the advertisement of unbundled or
>    bundled links supporting homogeneous multiplexing hierarchies and the
>    same Tributary Slot Granularity (TSG).  A different ISCD MUST be used
>    for each different muxing hierarchy (muxing tree in the following
>    examples) and different TSG supported within the TE Link, if it
>    includes component links with differing characteristics.
>  
>  
> [ALU] We addressed the point also in a previous mail in which you seem
> to converge in the opportunity to have at least two different signal
> types values.
> 1.25 does not imply the support also for both 1.25/2.5 as reported in
> this snip of a previous mail.
> Snip>
>> To
>> complicate things, it is not always true that an interface supporting
>> 1.25 tributary slots can also support 2.5 tributary slots, because
>> this specific functionality (known as fallback support setting
>> auto-payload flag to ON) can be either not present in HW or disabled
>> by NMS.
>>
>  
> Well this is something I didn't have in my original mail.  It was my
> understanding from previous discussions, that fallback support was a
> required in G.709-v3.  If it is optional (either in implementation or in
> operation) we need to ensure that both cases (1.25 + 2.5 support, or
> just 1.25 support) are fully covered.
>  
>  
>  
>>
>> On the other hand the usage of signal type could avoid the need to
>> perform consistency checks between G-PID value and signal type value.
>> (e.g ODU4 with 2.5 TSG)
>>
>> About G-PID we have one question. The definition you wrote in RFC3471
>> for G-PID is : "An identifier of the payload carried by an LSP, i.e.,
>> an identifier of the client layer of that LSP.  This is used by the
>> nodes at the endpoints of the LSP, and in some cases by the
>> penultimate hop."
>>
>> This definition standing, could you elaborate how can be derived from
>> what described that G-PID is "an end-point only field " ? Did we miss
>> something in the definition ?
>  
> Wouldn't you agree that client layer adaptation is only within the scope
> of the endpoints?  The sole exception that I can think of is PHP.
> Perhaps I'm missing something.
>  
> [ALU] We have in mind a different case: supposing to have an ODU2 LSP
> carrying an Ethernet client and suppose you have an OTU2 interface able
> to terminate ODU2 and extract Ethernet. At penultimate this interface
> may be selected for the ODU2 LSP and selection criteria is the G-PID
> value indicating Ethernet payload and not for example FiberChanne/ATM.
>  
>>
>> Anyway, apart the slight preference motivated above we do not have a
>> strong position on this issue. As co-authors of the draft we would
>> like to collect WG opinion included at first our co-authors' opinion
>> and report the WG decision in the drafts.
>  
> Sure.  Per IETF process, a WG document represents WG consensus.
>  
>>
>> Last but not least, we would like to remind that info draft reports
>> the need for a optional dedicated object containing the hierarchies
>> that should be supported by the endpoints. Independently from the
>> solution for TSG, this object is anyway required.
>>
>  
> I'm not sure which text you are referring to, but if you think it's
> covered in the routing draft, then we're in sync.
>  
> [ALU] The text is in the G.709-info draft , and is related to a
> dedicated optional object to insert in signalling , not in routing,
> where the supported hierarchies are already present.
>  
> Much thanks,
> Lou
>  
>  
>  

From julien.meuric@orange.com  Thu Oct  6 08:19:43 2011
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
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Hi.

On this issue of layout ambiguities, I do expect from the /Common 
Control.../ WG to provide a strong level of commonalties in protocols.

Beyond common object encodings, common object packing into LSAs is also 
significant. The first impact is on the operational tools used to 
supervise and analyze protocol exchanges: the more strict the OSPF 
packing rules are, the more usable and efficient those tools will be. 
Furthermore, troubleshooting will be easier and people training always 
benefit from commonalties.

Not to mention the lack of benefits from operational experience if, 
because of layout discrepancies between OSPF implementations, two 
GMPLS-controlled sub-networks, with similar node designs, end up by 
requiring, for instance, different entities to identify, or very 
different dimensioning of signaling networks...

My 2 cents,

Julien


Le 04/10/2011 18:00, PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) a crit :
> Besides this point, my originating concern was to avoid ambiguities.
> In the case of the Link LSA, there is no ambiguity, whatever the CP implementation the LSA will be similar to describe the same link.
> Possibly, one implementation can be less verbous than an other by omitting some of the optional sub-TLVs, but there will be no differences in the structure.
> And currently the WG drafts allow multiple TLVs layouts, that will conduct to different LSA structures for different CP implementation, and even worse, a CP implementation may itself follow different rules depending on the node structure.
> These differences can come for example from the capability provided today of defining Resource Block Information that describe a group of similar devices or a single device.
> I am afraid these lack of consistency in the design of TLV are putting at risks, CP restarts and implementation interops.
> My opinion is that we could avoid these confusions, by defining some LSA design rules.
>
> Then, I wished we could work together in providing more details to current section 3 of the draft.

From ietf-ipr@ietf.org  Thu Oct  6 08:57:47 2011
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From: IETF Secretariat <ietf-ipr@ietf.org>
To: attila.takacs@ericsson.com, donald.fedyk@alcatel-lucent.com, hejia@huawei.com, 
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Subject: [CCAMP] IPR Disclosure: Telefonaktiebolaget LM Ericsson (publ)'s Statement	about IPR related to draft-ietf-ccamp-oam-configuration-fwk-06
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Dear Attila Takacs, Don Fedyk, Jia He:

 An IPR disclosure that pertains to your Internet-Draft entitled "GMPLS RSV=
P-TE
extensions for OAM Configuration" (draft-ietf-ccamp-oam-configuration-fwk) =
was
submitted to the IETF Secretariat on 2011-10-06 and has been posted on the =
"IETF
Page of Intellectual Property Rights Disclosures"
(https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/1623/). The title of the IPR disclosure is
"Telefonaktiebolaget LM Ericsson (publ)'s Statement about IPR related to dr=
aft-
ietf-ccamp-oam-configuration-fwk-06."");

The IETF Secretariat


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Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 20:07:58 +0000
From: Leeyoung <leeyoung@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action:	draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
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Hi Julien,=20

There are two main discussions:

Case 1: Putting all sub-TLVs into the Optical Node Property TLV in the OSPF=
 TE LSA.=20

Case 2: In case the MTU exceeds 1500 byte limit, see Section 3.2 for this. =
(I don't see the need for breaking up TLV's into different OPSF TE LSAs for=
 today's typical WSON node examples, but in case in the future, we encounte=
r the need for breaking up TLV's, this section describes how to do it under=
 current OPSF rules.)

Please note that Case 1 is our base case. We don't see the need for Case 2 =
for current WSON node examples. Case 2 is provided in case of the future an=
d does not break the current OSPF rules and can exist with case 1. Please r=
eview the current texts presented below and see if there are any ambiguitie=
s and indicate any clarifying points by suggesting "new" texts.=20

Section 2 describes Case 1 (base case) and Section 3.1 describes Case 2. =20

--------------------begin (Case 1)----------------------------
2. The Optical Node Property TLV
  =20
   [RFC3630] defines OSPF TE LSA using an opaque LSA. This document adds
   a new top level TLV for use in the OSPF TE LSA: the Optical Node
   Property TLV. The Optical Node property TLV describes a single node.
   It is constructed of a set of sub-TLVs. There are no ordering
   requirements for the sub-TLVs. Only one Optical Node TLV shall be
   advertised in each LSA.

   The Optical Node Property TLV contains all WSON-specific node
   properties and signal compatibility constraints. The detailed
   encodings of these properties are defined in [WSON-Encode].

   The following sub-TLVs of the Optical Node Property TLV are defined:

   Value       Length      Sub-TLV Type

   TBA         variable    Resource Block Information
   TBA         variable    Resource Pool Accessibility
   TBA         variable    Resource Block Wavelength Constraints
   TBA         variable    Resource Pool State
   TBA         variable    Block Shared Access Wavelength Availability

...
   All sub-TLVs defined here may occur at most once in any given Optical
   Node TLV. These restrictions need not apply to future sub-TLVs.
   Unrecognized sub-TLVs are ignored.
--------------------------end-----------------------

Please let me know if there is any ambiguity in this description and the co=
-authors are more than willing to add more clarifying text if there is any =
ambiguity here.=20

For Case 2, please read section 3.2 as below and indicate if there is any a=
mbiguity here.=20

------------------------- begin (Case 2)--------------------

3.2. Separating a Sub-TLV into Multiple OSPF TE LSAs

   In the highly unlikely event that a WSON sub-TLV by itself would
   result in an LSA exceeding the MTU, all five WSON specific sub-TLVs
   in this document provide mechanisms that allow them to be subdivided
   into smaller sub-TLVs that can be sent in separate OSPF TE LSAs.

   Sub-Division by Sets

   All five sub-TLVs currently make use of one or more RB Set Fields
   [WSON-Encode] or Link Set Fields [Gen-Encode]. Long set fields can be
   decomposed into multiple smaller set fields resulting in multiple
   sub-TLVs that can be sent in multiple OSPF TE LSAs. The
   interpretation of the separate pieces is quite natural and reviewed
   in the following:

   Resource Block Information
     Information about different resources of similar types would get
     sent separately (LSAs). Path computation would not know a resource
     exists until it receives the instance of a sub-TLV that mentions
     that instance.

   Resource Pool Accessibility
     Information about accessibility to resources to/from ports would be
     in as separate pieces base on port or resource set separation. All
     pieces are combined to give complete resource/port accessibility
     view. Late/missing pieces would imply resources are not accessible
     to/from given ports.

   Resource Block Wavelength Constraints
     Information about resource wavelength constraints can be sent in
     separate pieces based on resource sub-sets. Late/missing pieces
     (LSAs) would imply resources accessible when they might not be.

   Resource Pool State
     Information about resource state can be sent in separate pieces
     based on resource sub-sets. Late/missing pieces (LSAs) could imply
     incorrect resources availability.

   Block Shared Access Wavelength Availability
     Information about resource shared access wavelength can be sent in
     separate pieces based on resource sub-sets. Late/missing pieces
     (LSAs) could imply incorrect shared wavelength availability.

   Due to the reliability mechanisms in OSPF the phenomena of late or
   missing pieces for relatively static information (first three types
   of sub-TLVs) would be relatively rare.

-----------------end----------------------------------------------------

Thanks,

Young

-----Original Message-----
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of J=
ulien Meuric
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2011 10:23 AM
To: ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility=
-ospf-06.txt

Hi.

On this issue of layout ambiguities, I do expect from the /Common=20
Control.../ WG to provide a strong level of commonalties in protocols.

Beyond common object encodings, common object packing into LSAs is also=20
significant. The first impact is on the operational tools used to=20
supervise and analyze protocol exchanges: the more strict the OSPF=20
packing rules are, the more usable and efficient those tools will be.=20
Furthermore, troubleshooting will be easier and people training always=20
benefit from commonalties.

Not to mention the lack of benefits from operational experience if,=20
because of layout discrepancies between OSPF implementations, two=20
GMPLS-controlled sub-networks, with similar node designs, end up by=20
requiring, for instance, different entities to identify, or very=20
different dimensioning of signaling networks...

My 2 cents,

Julien


Le 04/10/2011 18:00, PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) a =E9crit :
> Besides this point, my originating concern was to avoid ambiguities.
> In the case of the Link LSA, there is no ambiguity, whatever the CP imple=
mentation the LSA will be similar to describe the same link.
> Possibly, one implementation can be less verbous than an other by omittin=
g some of the optional sub-TLVs, but there will be no differences in the st=
ructure.
> And currently the WG drafts allow multiple TLVs layouts, that will conduc=
t to different LSA structures for different CP implementation, and even wor=
se, a CP implementation may itself follow different rules depending on the =
node structure.
> These differences can come for example from the capability provided today=
 of defining Resource Block Information that describe a group of similar de=
vices or a single device.
> I am afraid these lack of consistency in the design of TLV are putting at=
 risks, CP restarts and implementation interops.
> My opinion is that we could avoid these confusions, by defining some LSA =
design rules.
>
> Then, I wished we could work together in providing more details to curren=
t section 3 of the draft.
_______________________________________________
CCAMP mailing list
CCAMP@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] FW:  I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-12.txt
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On 10/1/11 1:54 PM, Lou Berger wrote:
>> Lou and Deborah, do you have any suggestion on this issue?
> Young,
> 	32 bit identifiers are fairly common on routers/IP-based control
> systems, and lots of implementations understand how to generate such
> identifiers in a dynamic and platform-relevant fashion.  My *personal*
> opinion is that unless there's a good reason to not use the norm, i.e.,
> 32-bit identifiers, they should be used.  Keep in mind that the
> identifiers in question are in the control plane (where bits are less
> precious).
+1
>
> BTW I see this issue as much less important than ensuring that the
> solution can work across graceful restarts.
does it means that  solution on the table needs some consideration about 
restart?

Cheers
G
> Lou
>
> On 9/28/2011 5:47 PM, Leeyoung wrote:
>> Hi Cyril,
>>
>> Thanks for your review and suggestions. It looks like there are two issues pending: Point #2 and #3.
>> We can close the rest of the points you raised with the action specified in-line. Please let me know otherwise.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Young
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:cyril.margaria@nsn.com]
>> Sent: Monday, September 26, 2011 10:59 AM
>> To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
>> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] FW: I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-12.txt
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>> I have the following comments on  draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-12
>> after it being updated and in light of the WG discussions:
>>
>> 1) section 3.1. Resource Block Set Field:
>>     The information model indicates that the resource block set is
>> optional for the  "Resource Block Information", hence the text should be
>> modified as follow:
>> "0 - Inclusive List
>>
>>       Indicates that the TLV contains zero or more RB elements that are
>>       included in the list."
>>
>> YOUNG>>  Will do in the next revision. (Closure)
>>
>> 2) section 3.1. Resource Block Set Field:
>> RB Identifier: as stated in section "3. Resources, Blocks, Sets, and the
>> Resource Pool", Resources and Resource Blocks are related to interface
>> cards.
>>
>> GMPLS implementations are using 32-bit unnumbered interface IDs to
>> identify GMPLS links and also the corresponding physical resources.
>> OEO devices and, in the context of this document, resource or resource
>> group can also be identified by 32-bit unnumbered interface IDs.
>>
>>   From an implementation point of view, having 16-bit resource block IDs
>> have several drawbacks because of the following points:
>>    a) Mapping exists between physical resource and unnumbered interface
>> IDs, this mapping is generally known by management system,
>>        introducing a different ID space is not optimal (new mapping
>> needed);
>>    b) Those OEOs might be used as links in a multi-node model, thus being
>> identified by a 32-bit unnumbered interface IDs, introducing another
>> space is also not optimal.
>>
>> Therefore, it would be better if the resource block IDs were 32-bit
>> interface IDs (to be unique within the node, not because they are
>> representing links in this document).
>>
>> YOUNG>>  The only motivation why we used 16 bits for RB ID is to reduce the space. And I think this is an internal link so it is not the real interface per se and thus there is no need to keep track of the state of RB ID like other legitimate interfaces. I don't think there is a substantial implementation issue here whether we use 16 bits or 32 bits, but if there is a strong support to use 32 bit ID over 16 bit ID, I am fine with this. Lou and Deborah, do you have any suggestion on this issue? Or other implementers?
>>
>>
>> 3) section 3.1. Resource Block Set Field Why not define a bit set
>> action, similar to the label set?
>>
>> YOUNG>>  Are you referring the Label Set encoding as follows from draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-05.txt
>>
>>    0                   1                   2                   3
>>        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>>       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>       | Action|    Num Labels         |          Length               |
>>       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>       |                          Base Label                           |
>>       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>       |     Additional fields as necessary per action                 |
>>
>>
>> The current Resource Block Set Field is encoded as follows:
>>
>>    0                   1                   2                   3
>>         0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>        |    Action     |E|C| Reserved  |        Length                 |
>>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>        |     RB Identifier 1           |        RB Identifier 2        |
>>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>        :                               :                               :
>>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>        |     RB Identifier n-1         |        RB Identifier n        |
>>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>
>> YOUNG>>  Can you be specific about your suggestion? Are you concerned about label being 32 bit vs RB identifier being 16 bits? --- then this is basically related to your point #2. If you have other concerns, please spell them out (e.g., action field (4 bits vs 8 bits), etc..) The Num Labels field is necessary when we are indicating bit maps (Action = 4), which Is not needed for Resource Block Set; E bit is not necessary when we adopt 32 bit RB ID, but C bit is needed to indicate the connectivity nature of Resource Pool Accessibility.
>>
>> YOUNG>>  Would the following encoding is what you are envisioning? If not, please suggest in detail.
>>
>>    0                   1                   2                   3
>>         0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>        | Action|C|                     |        Length                 |
>>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>        |                         RB Identifier 1                       |
>>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>        :                               :                               :
>>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>        |                         RB Identifier n                       |
>>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 4) section 4.3. Resource Pool State Sub-TLV
>>
>> The RB state refers to the number of available resources within the
>> resource block, the first sentence mentions the resource pool only.
>> In addition, a bit map can be used even in case the resource block
>> contains several resources.
>> The following text tries to reflect this, please consider it.
>>
>>      "The state of the pool is given by the number of resources available
>>      with particular characteristics. A resource block set is used to
>>      encode all or a subset of the resources of interest. The usage state
>>      of resources within a resource block set is encoded as either a list
>>      of 16-bit integer values, indicating the number of available
>> resources
>>      in the resource block, or a map of bits, indicating whether a
>> particular
>>      resource is available or not."
>>
>> YOUNG>>  Thanks. This is fine. Will add as you suggested in the revision (Closure)
>>
>>
>> 5) section 4.3. Resource Pool State Sub-TLV
>>     Typo: "RB Usage state:  Variable Length but must be a multiple of 4
>> bytes." (byes->bytes)
>>
>> YOUNG>>   Thanks. Will do s/byes/bytes in Section 4.3 (Closure)
>>
>> 6) section 5.1. Resource Block Information Sub-TLV
>>
>> Having an Input Modulation Type List sub-sub-TLV containing a list of
>> modulation formats (with an input-output bit) and an Output Modulation
>> Type List sub-sub-TLV containing a list of modulation formats (with an
>> input-output bit) seems redundant because the bit I already indicates if
>> it is an output or input modulation format.
>>
>> Having a single Modulation Type List sub-sub-TLV is providing the same
>> information with an efficient encoding, a single sub-sub-TLV type should
>> be used.
>>
>> Same reasoning apply to the FEC Type List Sub-Sub-TLV.
>>
>> YOUNG>>  I guess what you are suggesting is as follows:
>>
>>      0                   1                   2                   3
>>         0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>        |                     RB Set Field                              |
>>        :                                                               :
>>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>        |I|E|                      Reserved                             |
>>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>        |           Modulation Type List Sub-Sub-TLV  (opt)             |
>>        :                                                               :
>>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>        |           FEC Type List Sub-Sub-TLV    (opt)                  |
>>        :                                                               :
>>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>        |         Input Client Signal Type Sub-Sub-TLV      (opt)       |
>>        :                                                               :
>>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>        |         Input Bit Rate Range List  Sub-Sub-TLV (opt)          |
>>        :                                                               :
>>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>        |         Processing Capabilities List Sub-Sub-TLV (opt)        |
>>        :                                                               :
>>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>
>>
>> YOUNG>>  If that's what you suggested, that is fine with me. If that is that case, I will revise with this figure in the revision. (Closure)
>>
>>
>> 7) section 5.1. Resource Block Information Sub-TLV
>>    Add the following text: "The order of sub-sub-TLVs does not matter,
>> the sub-sub-TLVs MAY be in any order."
>>
>> YOUNG>>  Thanks. This will be added in the revision (Closure)
>>
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Cyril Margaria
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>> Of ext Leeyoung
>>> Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 11:30 PM
>>> To: ccamp@ietf.org
>>> Subject: [CCAMP] FW: I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-12.txt
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> This update (version 12) includes the following:
>>>
>>> (i) Replaced all instances of "ingress" with "input" and all instances
>>> of "egress" with "output".
>>> (ii) Added clarifying text on relationship between resource block
>> model
>>> and physical entities such as line cards.
>>>
>>> This draft is now very mature and incorporated all the comments raised
>>> in the mailing list and the last meetings.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Young
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>> Of internet-drafts@ietf.org
>>> Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 4:20 PM
>>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
>>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
>>> Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-12.txt
>>>
>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>>> directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and
>>> Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.
>>>
>>> 	Title           : Routing and Wavelength Assignment Information
>>> Model for Wavelength Switched Optical Networks
>>> 	Author(s)       : Young Lee
>>>                            Greg M. Bernstein
>>>                            Dan Li
>>>                            Wataru Imajuku
>>> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-12.txt
>>> 	Pages           : 27
>>> 	Date            : 2011-09-09
>>>
>>>     This document provides a model of information needed by the routing
>>>     and wavelength assignment (RWA) process in wavelength switched
>>>     optical networks (WSONs).  The purpose of the information described
>>>     in this model is to facilitate constrained lightpath computation in
>>>     WSONs. This model takes into account compatibility constraints
>>>     between WSON signal attributes and network elements but does not
>>>     include constraints due to optical impairments. Aspects of this
>>>     information that may be of use to other technologies utilizing a
>>>     GMPLS control plane are discussed.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-12.txt
>>>
>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>
>>> This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-12.txt
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

From tnadeau@lucidvision.com  Fri Oct  7 07:37:08 2011
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	I wanted to pass on some information regarding a BoF that is =
planned for Taipei that is relevant to=20
participants of this mailing list/WG area. =20

	The IAB and IESG met today to discuss BoFs for Taipei and agreed =
that we will hold a BoF
SDN with a goal of "discussing the technology and identifying work =
items". The BoF is nominally=20
in the Routing Area, but we expect considerable involvement from the OPS =
Area as well.=20

	The following is a link to the drafts and other documentation =
around the SDN effort
including some presentations, and a link to join the BoF mailing list.=20=

=09
	http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/

	We encourage you to join the list, review the materials and =
participate on the mailing
list as well as come to the BoF if you have an interest in this work.

	--Tom




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From: "Gruman, Fred" <fred.gruman@us.fujitsu.com>
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Subject: [CCAMP] Transcoding factor in OTN signaling in draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709
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Hello,

=20

G.709 ODUflex(CBR) has transcoding factor T in the calculation of the
number of TS. Does the transcoding factor need to be explicitly signaled
as part of the OTN traffic parameters for ODUflex(CBR)?

=20

I don't know if there are any currently defined ODUflex(CBR) clients
that would use a transcoding factor other than 1, but if this exists now
or in the future, the intermediate nodes would need to know the
transcoding factor in order to calculate the correct number of TS.
Perhaps this could be inferred based on GPID but then intermediate nodes
would need to interpret GPID (I seem to recall another thread that GPID
should be used at end nodes plus maybe penultimate hop).

=20

Best Regards,

Fred

=20


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 </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>

<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple>

<div class=3DWordSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Hello,<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>G.709 ODUflex(CBR) =
has
transcoding factor T in the calculation of the number of TS. Does the
transcoding factor need to be explicitly signaled as part of the OTN =
traffic
parameters for ODUflex(CBR)?<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>I don&#8217;t know if =
there are
any currently defined ODUflex(CBR) clients that would use a transcoding =
factor
other than 1, but if this exists now or in the future, the intermediate =
nodes
would need to know the transcoding factor in order to calculate the =
correct
number of TS. Perhaps this could be inferred based on GPID but then
intermediate nodes would need to interpret GPID (I seem to recall =
another
thread that GPID should be used at end nodes plus maybe penultimate =
hop).<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Best =
Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Fred<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

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From leeyoung@huawei.com  Fri Oct  7 15:43:24 2011
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D	Action:	draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
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Hi Andrea,

Sorry for my late response to your questions. Please see in-line for my com=
ments. Thanks.

Young

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrea Zanardi [mailto:andrea.zanardi@create-net.org]=20
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 9:10 AM
To: Leeyoung
Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility=
-ospf-06.txt

Hi Young,

with respect to the TE DB management of missing sub-TLVs in LSA updates,
I checked the behavior of a commercial OSPF-TE implementation.

YOUNG>> Here I assumed the LSAs are two different LSAs (identified by the L=
SA ID).=20

The point is that, if the TE DB is the set of LSAs, that's how it works
as the TE DB contains only the latest version of an LSA instance
and you can not merge the content of different LSA versions
(you could keep an internal model for the links with their attributes
updated independently, but when two neighbors synchronize their DB,
they synchronize the LSA set, not the internal models).

YOUNG>> Here is a bit confusing. The TE DB synchronization process checks t=
he same LSA and the sequence number (which you are referring as the version=
 of an LSA instance). When the node identifies the same LSA with different =
sequence number, then it flushes the LSA with the lower sequence number. Bu=
t the TE DB synch process does not check each other for different LSAs (whi=
ch is identified by the LSA ID).=20



With respect to RFC 3630, it states:

  2.4.2.  Link TLV

     The Link TLV describes a single link.

I read 'describes' as 'fully describes' (not 'partially describes');
so I don't see where it supports/suggests the division of the attributes on=
 multiple
LSA instances and that's why I think that multiple LSA instances for the
same link is not supported by current implementations.

YOUNG>> RFC3630 differentiates the mandatory element from other entities th=
at can appear "at most" once.=20
This is from RFC 3630 Section 2.4.2:

   The Link Type and Link ID sub-TLVs are mandatory, i.e., must appear
   exactly once.  All other sub-TLVs defined here may occur at most
   once.  These restrictions need not apply to future sub-TLVs.
   Unrecognized sub-TLVs are ignored.

YOUNG>> It does not mandate other sub-TLVs to appear exactly once; it rathe=
r says it may occur "at most once" -- sound like to me
YOUNG>> this is an optional element. =20

It's a possible implementation and it's fine to suggest it for other top le=
vel TLVs,
but it's not the one defined by RFC 3630 for TE Links, in my opinion.

My point is in avoiding ambiguities: if the support for multiple LSA instan=
ces for the
same entity top TLV is requested, it should be explicitly stated as mandato=
ry
(possibly providing explicit rules for the subdivision, as in Chap. 3 of th=
e draft).


YOUNG>> When you have different sub-sets of TLV's to be packaged under the =
OPSF TE LSA, you can use a different LSA ID from the previously used one to=
 avoid ambiguities. Then these are simply two different LSAs and would not =
confuse the TE DB sync process as well as flooding process.=20

Regards,
Andrea

On 10/03/2011 09:34 PM, Leeyoung wrote:
> Hi Andrea,
>
> Thanks for your interest and input to this issue.
>
> My overall point was that the current GMPLS TE LSA (per RFC 3630) does no=
t specify detail implementations as to how to divide up the TE Link TLVs in=
to static vs. dynamic nor how to use multiple TE LSAs. The current WSON doc=
ument follows a similar document philosophy with the GMPLS predecessor.
>
> Regarding your point on how the TE DB works in regard to missing sub-TLVs=
 are deleted seems to me a particular implementation, which is most simplis=
tic in nature.
>
> Best Regards,
> Young
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 Andrea Zanardi
> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 9:14 AM
> To: Leeyoung
> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibili=
ty-ospf-06.txt
>
> Hi Young,
>
> I was following the discussion and I have a doubt about
> your example related to the TE Link TLV.
>
> It's true that the attributes sub-TLV are not mandatory per RFC 3630,
> but I don't think that means that they can be not included in an LSA upda=
te
> if unchanged (implying that the previous value persists).
>
> As for my understanding of how OSPF-TE works, the managed TE DB entity is=
 the LSA.
> When an LSA update is processed, the previous version is deleted from the=
 TE DB
> and it is replaced by the new one: link attributes related to missing sub=
-TLV are
> deleted, so they must be present even if unchanged.
>
> In theory, the set of link attributes could be statically divided
> in two different LSAs instances (updated independently),
> but I don't think current implementations handle this scenario
> (also because, in my opinion, it's not suggested by RFC 3630 and
>    it gives no rule on how to divide them).
>
> But I ask to the mailing list if this is the correct interpretation.
>
> Regards,
> Andrea
>
> On 09/30/2011 11:16 PM, Leeyoung wrote:
>> Hi Pierre,
>>
>> I got your point. Let me ask you this question. In the current GMPLS OSP=
F TE Link TLV are defined under Opaque TE LSA with the following attributes=
:
>>
>> - TE Metric
>> - max B/W
>> - max reservable b/w
>> - unreserved b/w
>> - Admin Group
>> - Link Protection Type
>> - SRLG
>> - ISCD
>> - etc.
>>
>> And these are a mixture of static and dynamic information and yet they a=
re assembled together as one TE Link TLV. For instance the ISCD is quite si=
milar to Resource Block Info in that it does not change often unless there =
are new elements added in the node or configuration changes and yet it is p=
ackaged together with other dynamic information.
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> There are many ways to keep static/unchanged information from being floo=
ded. Only the Link Type and Link ID which are mandatory in the TE Link TLV =
per RFC3630. All other sub-TLV are optional and may occur at most once (whe=
n there are enough changes from the previous period that deserve an update)=
 and need not be included in the TE Link TLV when there is no need for upda=
ting.
>>
>> I really don't see the need for a separate top-level TLV and/or a separa=
te LSA for the Resource Block information.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Young
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) [mailto:pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.com]
>> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 9:39 AM
>> To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
>> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibil=
ity-ospf-06.txt
>>
>> Hi Young,
>>
>> I understand the content of your answer, but I'm not satisfied with it.
>> My concern deals with providing a unique reading/interpretation of the O=
SPF-TE extensions.
>> We would like to make sure that any implementation complying to the draf=
ts would provide the same LSAs when applied to the same network.
>> With this perspective in mind, we wish to get drafts with sufficient doc=
umentation to make sure the LSA design process to be depicted, by design ru=
les.
>>
>> Hence the content of your answer leaving me the "opportunity to do as I =
wish", is not pleasing me, I would rather have strict rules, and discussion=
s with the WG on the design of those.
>> That is why a first design rule, we could agree on is: to gather the Res=
ource Block Information TLVs inside a dedicated LSA, possibly with a dedica=
ted top-level TLV (which in my mind allows to enforce this design rule).
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> - Pierre
>>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Leeyoung [mailto:leeyoung@huawei.com]
>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 28 septembre 2011 00:06
>> =C0 : PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE); ccamp@ietf.org
>> Objet : RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibili=
ty-ospf-06.txt
>>
>> Hi Pierre,
>>
>> Please see-inline for my reply to your first point.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Young
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) [mailto:pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 3:28 AM
>> To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
>> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibil=
ity-ospf-06.txt
>>
>> Hi Young, and CCAMPers,
>>
>> I was off the mailing lists for the last two weeks and being back I noti=
ce a lot of exchanges, which I'm very glad of.
>> I've also noticed many drafts have been updated.
>> Concerning this specific draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf=
-06, I wanted to comment section 3.
>> Back in Quebec, I expressed my point of view (shared with Cyril, Julien =
and Giovanni) that current drafts were lacking guidance regarding the way t=
o design LSAs that were to depict an WSON node with OEOs.
>> This section 3 provides additional material to help designing the LSA.
>> I would like to know whether authors are willing to pursue further in th=
is direction, which is to my mind a real corner stone, that would help ever=
yone agree on a solution.
>> A first point could concern the Resource Block Information (reminder:<Re=
sourceBlockInfo>   ::=3D ([<ResourceSet>]<InputConstraints>   <ProcessingCa=
pabilities>   <OutputConstraints>):
>>        We all agree that these information are static, that we should no=
t replicate this TLV whatever the number not the layout of OEO boards of a =
given type.
>> Then, we could dedicate a specific independant flooding entity. This wou=
ld be defined once for all, and that would not leave room to different inte=
rpretations.
>> What about this first point?
>>
>> YOUNG>>   If I understand you correctly, what you are saying is since th=
e Resource Block Info sub-TLV is very static in nature, advertisement of th=
is sub-TLV should be treated differently from the rest of static-TLVs (whic=
h may change over time). Is this what you are saying?
>>
>> If my interpretation of your comment is correct,
>>
>> - The current mechanism allows what you want: Please see the first parag=
raph in Section 3.2
>>      "In the highly unlikely event that a WSON sub-TLV by itself would
>>      result in an LSA exceeding the MTU, all five WSON specific sub-TLVs
>>      in this document provide mechanisms that allow them to be subdivide=
d
>>      into smaller sub-TLVs that can be sent in separate OSPF TE LSAs."
>>
>> According to this clause, you can separate the Resource Block Info Sub-T=
LV as the sole entry defined in the Optical Node property TLV in a separate=
 TE LSA from the rest if you will. Nothing prevents this particular way of =
packaging. (Isn't this what you meant "a specific independent flooding enti=
ty"?)
>>
>> - Please let me know if this explanation satisfies you. Thanks --- Young
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Pierre
>>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] De la part d=
e Leeyoung Envoy=E9 : jeudi 15 septembre 2011 21:59 =C0 : ccamp@ietf.org Ob=
jet : Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-os=
pf-06.txt
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> After 05 version publication, Acee provided a number of valuable comment=
s and suggestions. This revision (06) reflects those changes. Please note t=
he following updates:
>>
>> - Change the title of the draft to "GMPLS OSPF Enhancement..." from "OSP=
F Enhancement..." to make sure the changes apply to the GMPLS OSPF rather t=
han the base OSPF.
>>
>> - Add specific OSPF procedures on how sub-TLVs are packaged per [RFC3630=
] and editorial change including avoiding "multiple instances of TE LSA" to=
 "multiple TE LSAs".
>>
>> Your comments are always appreciated. Thanks.
>>
>> Best Regards.
>> Young
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf O=
f internet-drafts@ietf.org
>> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 2:48 PM
>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
>> Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-=
ospf-06.txt
>>
>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direc=
tories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Pla=
ne Working Group of the IETF.
>>
>> 	Title           : GMPLS OSPF Enhancement for Signal and Network Element=
 Compatibility for Wavelength Switched Optical Networks
>> 	Author(s)       : Young Lee
>>                             Greg M. Bernstein
>> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.tx=
t
>> 	Pages           : 14
>> 	Date            : 2011-09-15
>>
>>      This document provides GMPLS OSPF routing enhancements to support
>>      signal compatibility constraints associated with WSON network
>>      elements. These routing enhancements are required in common optical
>>      or hybrid electro-optical networks where not all of the optical
>>      signals in the network are compatible with all network elements
>>      participating in the network.
>>
>>      This compatibility constraint model is applicable to common optical
>>      or hybrid electro optical systems such as OEO switches, regenerator=
s,
>>      and wavelength converters since such systems can be limited to
>>      processing only certain types of WSON signals.
>>
>>
>>
>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compati=
bility-ospf-06.txt
>>
>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>
>> This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatib=
ility-ospf-06.txt
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>
>
>


--=20
--------------------------------------------------------
Andrea Zanardi
CREATE-NET
Engineering & Fast Prototyping (ENGINE) Area
Senior Engineer
Via alla Cascata 56/D - 38123 Povo Trento (Italy)
e-mail: andrea.zanardi@create-net.org
Tel: (+39) 0461 408400 - interno/extension 1407
Mobile: (+39) 340 0011837
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Skype: zanardi_andrea
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From kpithewan@infinera.com  Sat Oct  8 03:03:09 2011
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From: Khuzema Pithewan <kpithewan@infinera.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Poll on making G.709 Routing and Signaling drafts	WG documents
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Poll on making G.709 Routing and Signaling drafts	WG	documents
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Yes. Support to both.

Khuzema

-----Original Message-----
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of L=
ou Berger
Sent: mercoled=EC 28 settembre 2011 18.32
To: CCAMP
Subject: [CCAMP] Poll on making G.709 Routing and Signaling drafts WG docum=
ents

This message starts a two week poll on making the documents listed below cc=
amp working group documents.  Please send a mail to the mailing list indica=
ting "yes/support to both" or "no/do not support either".  Of course, you m=
ay also support one but not the other.  (We will assume that you support/ob=
ject to both if you don't specify.)

If indicating no, please state your technical reservations with the documen=
t.

The documents being polled are:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ceccarelli-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709-07
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709-09

The poll ends Wednesday October 12.

Please also bear in mind that WG adoption does not signify that work is com=
plete on the documents or that the technical details are fixed, but rather =
that further development of the documents will take place based on WG proce=
ss.

Much thanks,
Lou (and Deborah)
_______________________________________________
CCAMP mailing list
CCAMP@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
_______________________________________________
CCAMP mailing list
CCAMP@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

From zhangfatai@huawei.com  Sun Oct  9 02:10:54 2011
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From: Zhangfatai <zhangfatai@huawei.com>
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<body lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Hi F=
red,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">We a=
re planning to refine some description about the formula, which will take i=
nto account transcoding factor.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">-The Bit_Rate field i=
ndicates the nominal bit rate of ODUflex(CBR) expressed in bytes per second=
, encoded as a 32-bit IEEE single-precision
 floating-point number (referring to [RFC4506] and [IEEE]).The value contai=
ned in the Bit Rate field has to take into account both 239/238 factor and =
the Transcoding factor.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">ODUflex(CBR) nominal bit rate =
=3D CBR client bit rate * (239/238) / T<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">So, the head node wil=
l put the caculated value (</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">ODUflex(CBR) nominal=
 bit rate) into the
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Bit_Rate filed, and =
then the intermediated nodes do not need to care about Transcoding factor.<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Thanks<br>
&nbsp;<br>
Fatai</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> Gruman, Fred [mailto:fred.gruman@us.fujitsu.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 2011</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=
=CC=E5">=C4=EA</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">10</span><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=D4=C2</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&qu=
ot;">8</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=C8=
=D5</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
 3:07<br>
<b>To:</b> ccamp@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Zhangfatai<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Transcoding factor in OTN signaling in draft-zhang-ccamp-gm=
pls-evolving-g709<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hello,<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">G.709 O=
DUflex(CBR) has transcoding factor T in the calculation of the number of TS=
. Does the transcoding factor need to be explicitly signaled as part of the=
 OTN traffic parameters for ODUflex(CBR)?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">I don=
=A1=AFt know if there are any currently defined ODUflex(CBR) clients that w=
ould use a transcoding factor other than 1, but if this exists now or in th=
e future, the intermediate nodes would need to
 know the transcoding factor in order to calculate the correct number of TS=
. Perhaps this could be inferred based on GPID but then intermediate nodes =
would need to interpret GPID (I seem to recall another thread that GPID sho=
uld be used at end nodes plus maybe
 penultimate hop).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Best Re=
gards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Fred<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
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From: Andrea Zanardi <andrea.zanardi@create-net.org>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D	Action:	draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
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Hi Young,

I think I clarified what I meant in my reply to Acee comments.

Anyway, my original comments were related to:

a.  the possibility of sending a TE Link LSA update (same ID, new sequence number)
     without some sub-TLVs if their value is unchanged, as I understood when you wrote

     "All other sub-TLV are optional and may occur at most once
      (when there are enough changes from the previous period that deserve an update)
      and _need not_ be included in the TE Link TLV when there is no need for updating."

    (but correct me if I misunderstood your sentence)

    This clearly can't work due to how the TE DB synchronization works.

    Note that also creating a new LSA (new ID) with only the changed sub-TLVs doesn't
    work, as you will have two different values for the same sub-TLV
    (as the old LSA and the new LSA are both present in the TE DB)

    I read the "may occur at least once" in RFC 3630 as:
    "it may be omitted if it does not apply to the link";
    but if it applies, it must be present in all updates
    (unless you want to clear its value)


b. the fact that RFC 3630 allows the possibility of splitting the
    set of sub-TLVs of a TE Link in different LSAs (different IDs)
    [the implementation I checked doesn't support this scenario]

    This could be a matter of interpretation; but as it's not explicitly
    stated, the simplest interpretation is usually the one accepted.

I perfectly agree that splitting a set of attributes related to
a 'logical' instance in two or more different LSAs is a viable solution
(as far as you keep the subsets disjoint and the support for this
solution is explicitly requested; and this is somehow stated
in the draft in Chap. 3.2.1).

Even if, in my opinion, would be preferable to have some rule
defined; especially if the reason for the splitting is the dynamics
of the updates and not just the size.

Sorry if there has been any misunderstanding.

Regards
Andrea


On 10/08/2011 12:46 AM, Leeyoung wrote:
> Hi Andrea,
>
> Sorry for my late response to your questions. Please see in-line for my comments. Thanks.
>
> Young
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrea Zanardi [mailto:andrea.zanardi@create-net.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 9:10 AM
> To: Leeyoung
> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>
> Hi Young,
>
> with respect to the TE DB management of missing sub-TLVs in LSA updates,
> I checked the behavior of a commercial OSPF-TE implementation.
>
> YOUNG>>  Here I assumed the LSAs are two different LSAs (identified by the LSA ID).
>
> The point is that, if the TE DB is the set of LSAs, that's how it works
> as the TE DB contains only the latest version of an LSA instance
> and you can not merge the content of different LSA versions
> (you could keep an internal model for the links with their attributes
> updated independently, but when two neighbors synchronize their DB,
> they synchronize the LSA set, not the internal models).
>
> YOUNG>>  Here is a bit confusing. The TE DB synchronization process checks the same LSA and the sequence number (which you are referring as the version of an LSA instance). When the node identifies the same LSA with different sequence number, then it flushes the LSA with the lower sequence number. But the TE DB synch process does not check each other for different LSAs (which is identified by the LSA ID).
>
>
>
> With respect to RFC 3630, it states:
>
>    2.4.2.  Link TLV
>
>       The Link TLV describes a single link.
>
> I read 'describes' as 'fully describes' (not 'partially describes');
> so I don't see where it supports/suggests the division of the attributes on multiple
> LSA instances and that's why I think that multiple LSA instances for the
> same link is not supported by current implementations.
>
> YOUNG>>  RFC3630 differentiates the mandatory element from other entities that can appear "at most" once.
> This is from RFC 3630 Section 2.4.2:
>
>     The Link Type and Link ID sub-TLVs are mandatory, i.e., must appear
>     exactly once.  All other sub-TLVs defined here may occur at most
>     once.  These restrictions need not apply to future sub-TLVs.
>     Unrecognized sub-TLVs are ignored.
>
> YOUNG>>  It does not mandate other sub-TLVs to appear exactly once; it rather says it may occur "at most once" -- sound like to me
> YOUNG>>  this is an optional element.
>
> It's a possible implementation and it's fine to suggest it for other top level TLVs,
> but it's not the one defined by RFC 3630 for TE Links, in my opinion.
>
> My point is in avoiding ambiguities: if the support for multiple LSA instances for the
> same entity top TLV is requested, it should be explicitly stated as mandatory
> (possibly providing explicit rules for the subdivision, as in Chap. 3 of the draft).
>
>
> YOUNG>>  When you have different sub-sets of TLV's to be packaged under the OPSF TE LSA, you can use a different LSA ID from the previously used one to avoid ambiguities. Then these are simply two different LSAs and would not confuse the TE DB sync process as well as flooding process.
>
> Regards,
> Andrea
>
> On 10/03/2011 09:34 PM, Leeyoung wrote:
>> Hi Andrea,
>>
>> Thanks for your interest and input to this issue.
>>
>> My overall point was that the current GMPLS TE LSA (per RFC 3630) does not specify detail implementations as to how to divide up the TE Link TLVs into static vs. dynamic nor how to use multiple TE LSAs. The current WSON document follows a similar document philosophy with the GMPLS predecessor.
>>
>> Regarding your point on how the TE DB works in regard to missing sub-TLVs are deleted seems to me a particular implementation, which is most simplistic in nature.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Young
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Andrea Zanardi
>> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 9:14 AM
>> To: Leeyoung
>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>
>> Hi Young,
>>
>> I was following the discussion and I have a doubt about
>> your example related to the TE Link TLV.
>>
>> It's true that the attributes sub-TLV are not mandatory per RFC 3630,
>> but I don't think that means that they can be not included in an LSA update
>> if unchanged (implying that the previous value persists).
>>
>> As for my understanding of how OSPF-TE works, the managed TE DB entity is the LSA.
>> When an LSA update is processed, the previous version is deleted from the TE DB
>> and it is replaced by the new one: link attributes related to missing sub-TLV are
>> deleted, so they must be present even if unchanged.
>>
>> In theory, the set of link attributes could be statically divided
>> in two different LSAs instances (updated independently),
>> but I don't think current implementations handle this scenario
>> (also because, in my opinion, it's not suggested by RFC 3630 and
>>     it gives no rule on how to divide them).
>>
>> But I ask to the mailing list if this is the correct interpretation.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Andrea
>>
>> On 09/30/2011 11:16 PM, Leeyoung wrote:
>>> Hi Pierre,
>>>
>>> I got your point. Let me ask you this question. In the current GMPLS OSPF TE Link TLV are defined under Opaque TE LSA with the following attributes:
>>>
>>> - TE Metric
>>> - max B/W
>>> - max reservable b/w
>>> - unreserved b/w
>>> - Admin Group
>>> - Link Protection Type
>>> - SRLG
>>> - ISCD
>>> - etc.
>>>
>>> And these are a mixture of static and dynamic information and yet they are assembled together as one TE Link TLV. For instance the ISCD is quite similar to Resource Block Info in that it does not change often unless there are new elements added in the node or configuration changes and yet it is packaged together with other dynamic information.
>>>
>>> Why?
>>>
>>> There are many ways to keep static/unchanged information from being flooded. Only the Link Type and Link ID which are mandatory in the TE Link TLV per RFC3630. All other sub-TLV are optional and may occur at most once (when there are enough changes from the previous period that deserve an update) and need not be included in the TE Link TLV when there is no need for updating.
>>>
>>> I really don't see the need for a separate top-level TLV and/or a separate LSA for the Resource Block information.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Young
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) [mailto:pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.com]
>>> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 9:39 AM
>>> To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
>>> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>
>>> Hi Young,
>>>
>>> I understand the content of your answer, but I'm not satisfied with it.
>>> My concern deals with providing a unique reading/interpretation of the OSPF-TE extensions.
>>> We would like to make sure that any implementation complying to the drafts would provide the same LSAs when applied to the same network.
>>> With this perspective in mind, we wish to get drafts with sufficient documentation to make sure the LSA design process to be depicted, by design rules.
>>>
>>> Hence the content of your answer leaving me the "opportunity to do as I wish", is not pleasing me, I would rather have strict rules, and discussions with the WG on the design of those.
>>> That is why a first design rule, we could agree on is: to gather the Resource Block Information TLVs inside a dedicated LSA, possibly with a dedicated top-level TLV (which in my mind allows to enforce this design rule).
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> - Pierre
>>>
>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>> De : Leeyoung [mailto:leeyoung@huawei.com]
>>> Envoy : mercredi 28 septembre 2011 00:06
>>>  : PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE); ccamp@ietf.org
>>> Objet : RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>
>>> Hi Pierre,
>>>
>>> Please see-inline for my reply to your first point.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Young
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) [mailto:pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.com]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 3:28 AM
>>> To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
>>> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>
>>> Hi Young, and CCAMPers,
>>>
>>> I was off the mailing lists for the last two weeks and being back I notice a lot of exchanges, which I'm very glad of.
>>> I've also noticed many drafts have been updated.
>>> Concerning this specific draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06, I wanted to comment section 3.
>>> Back in Quebec, I expressed my point of view (shared with Cyril, Julien and Giovanni) that current drafts were lacking guidance regarding the way to design LSAs that were to depict an WSON node with OEOs.
>>> This section 3 provides additional material to help designing the LSA.
>>> I would like to know whether authors are willing to pursue further in this direction, which is to my mind a real corner stone, that would help everyone agree on a solution.
>>> A first point could concern the Resource Block Information (reminder:<ResourceBlockInfo>    ::= ([<ResourceSet>]<InputConstraints>    <ProcessingCapabilities>    <OutputConstraints>):
>>>         We all agree that these information are static, that we should not replicate this TLV whatever the number not the layout of OEO boards of a given type.
>>> Then, we could dedicate a specific independant flooding entity. This would be defined once for all, and that would not leave room to different interpretations.
>>> What about this first point?
>>>
>>> YOUNG>>    If I understand you correctly, what you are saying is since the Resource Block Info sub-TLV is very static in nature, advertisement of this sub-TLV should be treated differently from the rest of static-TLVs (which may change over time). Is this what you are saying?
>>>
>>> If my interpretation of your comment is correct,
>>>
>>> - The current mechanism allows what you want: Please see the first paragraph in Section 3.2
>>>       "In the highly unlikely event that a WSON sub-TLV by itself would
>>>       result in an LSA exceeding the MTU, all five WSON specific sub-TLVs
>>>       in this document provide mechanisms that allow them to be subdivided
>>>       into smaller sub-TLVs that can be sent in separate OSPF TE LSAs."
>>>
>>> According to this clause, you can separate the Resource Block Info Sub-TLV as the sole entry defined in the Optical Node property TLV in a separate TE LSA from the rest if you will. Nothing prevents this particular way of packaging. (Isn't this what you meant "a specific independent flooding entity"?)
>>>
>>> - Please let me know if this explanation satisfies you. Thanks --- Young
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Pierre
>>>
>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>> De : ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Leeyoung Envoy : jeudi 15 septembre 2011 21:59  : ccamp@ietf.org Objet : Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> After 05 version publication, Acee provided a number of valuable comments and suggestions. This revision (06) reflects those changes. Please note the following updates:
>>>
>>> - Change the title of the draft to "GMPLS OSPF Enhancement..." from "OSPF Enhancement..." to make sure the changes apply to the GMPLS OSPF rather than the base OSPF.
>>>
>>> - Add specific OSPF procedures on how sub-TLVs are packaged per [RFC3630] and editorial change including avoiding "multiple instances of TE LSA" to "multiple TE LSAs".
>>>
>>> Your comments are always appreciated. Thanks.
>>>
>>> Best Regards.
>>> Young
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf.org
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 2:48 PM
>>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
>>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
>>> Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>
>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.
>>>
>>> 	Title           : GMPLS OSPF Enhancement for Signal and Network Element Compatibility for Wavelength Switched Optical Networks
>>> 	Author(s)       : Young Lee
>>>                              Greg M. Bernstein
>>> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>> 	Pages           : 14
>>> 	Date            : 2011-09-15
>>>
>>>       This document provides GMPLS OSPF routing enhancements to support
>>>       signal compatibility constraints associated with WSON network
>>>       elements. These routing enhancements are required in common optical
>>>       or hybrid electro-optical networks where not all of the optical
>>>       signals in the network are compatible with all network elements
>>>       participating in the network.
>>>
>>>       This compatibility constraint model is applicable to common optical
>>>       or hybrid electro optical systems such as OEO switches, regenerators,
>>>       and wavelength converters since such systems can be limited to
>>>       processing only certain types of WSON signals.
>>>


-- 
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiAg562U5aSNOiAg562U5aSNOiAg562U5aSN?= =?utf-8?q?=3A__I-D_Action=3A_draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-o?= =?utf-8?q?spf-te-02=2Etxt?=
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From lberger@labn.net  Mon Oct 10 03:31:05 2011
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From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Transcoding factor in OTN signaling in	draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709
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Fred,
	Thank you for the additional information.  G-PID usage is still being
discussed.  In general, factors that impact resource/label allocation
are reflected in traffic parameters.

Lou

On 10/7/2011 3:07 PM, Gruman, Fred wrote:
> Hello,
> 
>  
> 
> G.709 ODUflex(CBR) has transcoding factor T in the calculation of the
> number of TS. Does the transcoding factor need to be explicitly signaled
> as part of the OTN traffic parameters for ODUflex(CBR)?
> 
>  
> 
> I dont know if there are any currently defined ODUflex(CBR) clients
> that would use a transcoding factor other than 1, but if this exists now
> or in the future, the intermediate nodes would need to know the
> transcoding factor in order to calculate the correct number of TS.
> Perhaps this could be inferred based on GPID but then intermediate nodes
> would need to interpret GPID (I seem to recall another thread that GPID
> should be used at end nodes plus maybe penultimate hop).
> 
>  
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Fred
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

From daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com  Mon Oct 10 06:06:37 2011
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From: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 15:06:33 +0200
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Hi Lou,

Let's try with an example showing that in a muxing hierarchy not every laye=
r must use the same TSG. Please consider the following path.

                     IF1     IF2
A ------ B -------- C ----------D
|--ODU2--|          |---ODU2----|
         |---ODU3---|


Suppose an ODU2 from A to D is set up in order to carry an ODU0, so D needs=
 to be able to perform ODU0->ODU2 demuxing. The ODU2 is carried over an ODU=
3 FA from B to C.
B is not able to support ODU2 and can only carry it through an ODU3@2,5Gbps=
 TSG. It does not care about the fact that the ODU2 is carrying and ODU0 an=
d a 1,25 TSG is needed to extract it, since the extraction is performed by =
D.

D advertises both hierarchy information and TSG capability on IF2: muxing h=
ierarchy ODU0->ODU2 and TSG field =3D 01 (i.e. Both 1,25 and 2,5 supported)=
.

The ODU0 is terminated only on D, so B can forward the ODU2 over the ODU3 F=
A using a TSG =3D 2,5 Gbps *but* if multiple interfaces are present from C =
to D, C must choose an OTU2 inferface supporting an 1,25 TSG adaptation tow=
ards the client.
=20
In conclusion, when setting up an ODU2 LSP, that has to be able to extract =
an ODU0 in the termination node, TSG information carried in the ODU2 LSP si=
gnaling (so referred to ODU0 carried over it) has NO impact on the label al=
location for the ODU2 LSP (in fact label allocation for link BC is @2,5 Gbp=
s). Label allocation for the ODU2 LSP is impacted by the TSG capability off=
ered by the underlying ODU3 link/FA.

So the answer to you question is: The LSP's supported TSG does not impact t=
he label allocation/selection. The label allocaction/selection is only impa=
cted by the server link/FA TSG.

As a further clarification, the reason why in our opinion the TSG is not re=
levant to the traffic parameters is that the type of LSP being set up does =
not influence the TSG of the server layer (which has already been fixed) bu=
t only the choice of the right server.

Thanks
Daniele, Sergio, Pietro

PS. The piece of text in the info model referring to the optional object is=
 in page 9, section 4.1:
"The G-PID information is not enough to have a complete choice since
 the penultimate hop node has to distinguish between interfaces with
 the same TSG (e.g. 1.25Gbps) whether the interface is able to support
 the right hierarchy, i.e. it is possible to have two interfaces both
 at 1.25 TSG but only one is supporting ODU0.

 A dedicated optional object should to be defined in order to carry
 the multiplexing hierarchy and have a more precise choice capability.
 In this way, when the penultimate node receives the GENERALIZED LABEL
 REQUEST Object, the G-PID value together with the ODU bandwdith
 included into the Traffic Parameters Object allow desuming the
 correct TSG value."



-----Original Message-----
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of L=
ou Berger
Sent: mercoled=EC 5 ottobre 2011 19.16
To: BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
Cc: CCAMP
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG

Guys,
	I think we're going in circles.  Let me try a different question that hope=
fully can help us resolve this.

Are there *any* cases where an LSP's supported TSG impacts label allocation=
/selection?

If the answer is yes, then TSG belongs in the traffic parameters.

Thanks,
Lou

PS your reference to some text in the info document, rather than keeping us=
 guessing, can you point to a section and paragraph number or just copy and=
 paste the text?

On 10/4/2011 9:33 AM, BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO) wrote:
> Lou,
> =20
> See in line
> =20
> Pietro and Sergio
> =20
> ---------------------
> =20
> Pietro, Sergio,
> =20
> It looks like we may be converging.  We agree that encoding isn't=20
> optimal, and you only have a slight preference for G-PID.  For me the=20
> tipping point is on intermediate node use of TSG*.  At this point you=20
> have said that this is never needed.  It's my understanding that this=20
> isn't correct, and there are cases where it is needed.  Consider the=20
> case where there is a 1.25G TSG LSP (e.g., ODU0 or ODUflex) that is=20
> being signaled across a topology composed of ODU2 H-LSPs, some of=20
> which can support 1.25G TSG and others that only support 2.5G TSG.
> Don't the intermediate nodes need to understand the TSG of the LSP in=20
> order to select the proper outgoing H-LSPs?
> =20
> [[ALU]] No. The point is that the intermediate nodes have only to=20
> consider the LSP signal type (ODU1, ODU2 etc..), and not the TSG that=20
> the LSP exports to its clients at the endpoints. So it happens that an=20
> ODU0 can only be carried on H-LSPs that export 1.25 TSG to their=20
> clients (by G.709 definition). An ODU2 instead can be carried on=20
> H-LSPs that export either 1.25 or 2.5. Where you have to consider both=20
> the LSP type and the TSG exported to LSP clients is the penultimate=20
> node. On that node the interface choice has to be made in such a way=20
> that the endpoint
> can:
> =20
> 1) support the signal type indicated by the LSP
> 2) structure the LSP with the required adaptation
> 3) support all the required hierarchies
> =20
> =20
> (*) In a private mail (which the author may resend to the list) the=20
> point was also made that by using G-PID for TSG we loose the ability=20
> to identify the client adaptation supported by the LSP, e.g., Ethernet.
> =20
> [[ALU]]
> In OTN an ODUj LSP either carries an ODUj client or a client of=20
> different technology. When we set up a ODU3 H-LSP that will carry an=20
> ODUj client, the G-PID of the ODU3 H-LSP simply indicates that the=20
> client is an ODUj.
> In OTN when you structure a payload you are not defining which will be=20
> the signal types of the carried ODU.
> Once that the ODU3 H-LSP is structured, in order to carry Ethernet you=20
> should set up a client ODUj that in turn will carry Ethernet. The=20
> G-PID of this ODUj will contain Ethernet.
> =20
> Instead related to this point what we can add is that in case of=20
> not-ODU clients the TSG is a useless parameter. This would imply to=20
> have up to three signal types for every ODU , For example you would=20
> need an ODU2-1.25, an ODU2-2.5 and an ODU2-neutral (e.g for Ethernet clie=
nt).
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> Please see below for detailed responses.
> =20
> On 10/4/2011 4:31 AM, GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO) wrote:
>> Hello Lou,
>>
>> we think we have understood your motivations and we think that we=20
>> could narrow the choice to just G-PID and Signal type.
>>
> =20
> It looks like we may be converging.
> =20
>> We would not consider encoding because in case of TDM it usually=20
>> contains the nature of the path  (in this case G.709 ODUk (Digital
>> Path)=3D12 ) and not the container type and attributes.
>>
> =20
> Well I don't mind us reaching the same conclusion, even if our=20
> rational isn't the same.
> =20
>> We have yet a slight preference for G-PID that is motivated by the=20
>> fact the G.709, in case of structuring, explicitly foresees two=20
>> different payloads named ODTUjk (for G.709v2) and ODTUk.ts (for=20
>> G.709v3). The current GPID value defined in RFC 4328 is currently=20
>> associated to the ODTUjk only.
> =20
> Huh?  RFC4328 says:
> =20
>    The G-PID (16 bits field), as defined in [RFC3471], identifies the
>    payload carried by an LSP, i.e., an identifier of the client layer of
>    that LSP.  This identifier is used by the endpoints of the G.709 LSP.
> =20
>    The G-PID can take one of the following values when the client
>    payload is transported over the Digital Path layer, in addition to
>    the payload identifiers defined in [RFC3471]:
> =20
> Clearly the rfc envisions use of multiple G-PIDs based on the use of=20
> the
> G.709 LSP.
> =20
> [ALU] The only value related to ODUjk is 47. The other (linked to
> G.709
> v3) can not be present .since G.709v3 was not present at that time.
> =20
>> The extension of G-PID would be one to one consistent with G.709.
> =20
> This is where our perspective diverges.
> =20
> [ALU] Why?
> =20
>>
>> We have also to notice that we are using the same signal type value=20
>> both in routing and in signaling. Surely we would avoid a duplication=20
>> of data in the ISCD just to differentiate the TSGs. (for example
>> ODU2-2.5 and ODU2-1.25). This could happen on interfaces that have=20
>> auto-payload type on.
> =20
> I addressed this point in my original mail:
>>> Hereto, the 1.25 types would imply support for both 1.25 and 2.5=20
>>> types in routing.
> =20
> Also note that the routing draft currently says:
>    A single ISCD MAY be used for the advertisement of unbundled or
>    bundled links supporting homogeneous multiplexing hierarchies and the
>    same Tributary Slot Granularity (TSG).  A different ISCD MUST be used
>    for each different muxing hierarchy (muxing tree in the following
>    examples) and different TSG supported within the TE Link, if it
>    includes component links with differing characteristics.
> =20
> =20
> [ALU] We addressed the point also in a previous mail in which you seem=20
> to converge in the opportunity to have at least two different signal=20
> types values.
> 1.25 does not imply the support also for both 1.25/2.5 as reported in=20
> this snip of a previous mail.
> Snip>
>> To
>> complicate things, it is not always true that an interface supporting
>> 1.25 tributary slots can also support 2.5 tributary slots, because=20
>> this specific functionality (known as fallback support setting=20
>> auto-payload flag to ON) can be either not present in HW or disabled=20
>> by NMS.
>>
> =20
> Well this is something I didn't have in my original mail.  It was my=20
> understanding from previous discussions, that fallback support was a=20
> required in G.709-v3.  If it is optional (either in implementation or=20
> in
> operation) we need to ensure that both cases (1.25 + 2.5 support, or=20
> just 1.25 support) are fully covered.
> =20
> =20
> =20
>>
>> On the other hand the usage of signal type could avoid the need to=20
>> perform consistency checks between G-PID value and signal type value.
>> (e.g ODU4 with 2.5 TSG)
>>
>> About G-PID we have one question. The definition you wrote in RFC3471=20
>> for G-PID is : "An identifier of the payload carried by an LSP, i.e.,=20
>> an identifier of the client layer of that LSP.  This is used by the=20
>> nodes at the endpoints of the LSP, and in some cases by the=20
>> penultimate hop."
>>
>> This definition standing, could you elaborate how can be derived from=20
>> what described that G-PID is "an end-point only field " ? Did we miss=20
>> something in the definition ?
> =20
> Wouldn't you agree that client layer adaptation is only within the=20
> scope of the endpoints?  The sole exception that I can think of is PHP.
> Perhaps I'm missing something.
> =20
> [ALU] We have in mind a different case: supposing to have an ODU2 LSP=20
> carrying an Ethernet client and suppose you have an OTU2 interface=20
> able to terminate ODU2 and extract Ethernet. At penultimate this=20
> interface may be selected for the ODU2 LSP and selection criteria is=20
> the G-PID value indicating Ethernet payload and not for example FiberChan=
ne/ATM.
> =20
>>
>> Anyway, apart the slight preference motivated above we do not have a=20
>> strong position on this issue. As co-authors of the draft we would=20
>> like to collect WG opinion included at first our co-authors' opinion=20
>> and report the WG decision in the drafts.
> =20
> Sure.  Per IETF process, a WG document represents WG consensus.
> =20
>>
>> Last but not least, we would like to remind that info draft reports=20
>> the need for a optional dedicated object containing the hierarchies=20
>> that should be supported by the endpoints. Independently from the=20
>> solution for TSG, this object is anyway required.
>>
> =20
> I'm not sure which text you are referring to, but if you think it's=20
> covered in the routing draft, then we're in sync.
> =20
> [ALU] The text is in the G.709-info draft , and is related to a=20
> dedicated optional object to insert in signalling , not in routing,=20
> where the supported hierarchies are already present.
> =20
> Much thanks,
> Lou
> =20
> =20
> =20
_______________________________________________
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
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On 10/10/2011 9:06 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
> Hi Lou,
> 
> Let's try with an example showing that in a muxing hierarchy not
> every layer must use the same TSG. 

Sure, while helpful, I believe this is understood by all and not the
issue I'm trying to get at.

> Please consider the following
> path.
> 
>                      IF1     IF2
> A ------ B -------- C ----------D
> |--ODU2--|          |---ODU2----|
>          |---ODU3---|
> 
> 
> Suppose an ODU2 from A to D is set up in order to carry an ODU0, so D
> needs to be able to perform ODU0->ODU2 demuxing. The ODU2 is carried
> over an ODU3 FA from B to C. B is not able to support ODU2 and can
> only carry it through an ODU3@2,5Gbps TSG. It does not care about the
> fact that the ODU2 is carrying and ODU0 and a 1,25 TSG is needed to
> extract it, since the extraction is performed by D.
> 
> D advertises both hierarchy information and TSG capability on IF2:
> muxing hierarchy ODU0->ODU2 and TSG field = 01 (i.e. Both 1,25 and
> 2,5 supported).
> 
> The ODU0 is terminated only on D, so B can forward the ODU2 over the
> ODU3 FA using a TSG = 2,5 Gbps *but* if multiple interfaces are
> present from C to D, C must choose an OTU2 inferface supporting an
> 1,25 TSG adaptation towards the client.
> 
> In conclusion, when setting up an ODU2 LSP, that has to be able to
> extract an ODU0 in the termination node, TSG information carried in
> the ODU2 LSP signaling (so referred to ODU0 carried over it) has NO
> impact on the label allocation for the ODU2 LSP (in fact label
> allocation for link BC is @2,5 Gbps). Label allocation for the ODU2
> LSP is impacted by the TSG capability offered by the underlying ODU3
> link/FA.
> 
> So the answer to you question is: The LSP's supported TSG does not
> impact the label allocation/selection. The label
> allocaction/selection is only impacted by the server link/FA TSG.
> 
> As a further clarification, the reason why in our opinion the TSG is
> not relevant to the traffic parameters is that the type of LSP being
> set up does not influence the TSG of the server layer (which has
> already been fixed) but only the choice of the right server.

Let's consider the slightly more complicated case:
In this case an ODU0 LSP is being switched at a transit node
interconnected via the FAs/H-LSPs described above.

 ---- A ---- B ---- C ----(D -XC- D)---- F ---- G -----H ----
Links/switching
 ODU0-|                    |-ODU0-|                    |-ODU0
      |-ODU2-|      |-ODU2-|      |-ODU2-|      |-ODU2-|
             |-ODU3-|                    |-ODU3-|
LSPs
 |------------------------ ODU0 LSP -------------------------|
      |---- ODU2 H-LSP ----|      |---- ODU2 H-LSP ----|
 ODU3 H-LSPs |------|                    |------|  (could be a link)

So I think the key question to answer are:

1) What information is used to allocate the label used on the ODU0 LSP
for the A <-> D hop (provided by the left ODU2 H-LSP)?

2) What information is used on D to provision its ODU0 cross-connect
(switch) and select the proper out-going interface (H-LSP)?

3) What information is used to allocate the label used on the ODU0 LSP
for the D <-> H hop (provided by the right ODU2 H-LSP)?

4) Do any the answers change if A and H are themselves intermediate
nodes on the ODU0 LSP?

It seems to me that TSG is part of the information needed at the ODU0
transit nodes for proper resource allocation, output link (H-LSP)
selection, and label allocation.  Am I missing something?

Much thanks,
Lou

> 
> Thanks
> Daniele, Sergio, Pietro
> 
> PS. The piece of text in the info model referring to the optional object is in page 9, section 4.1:
> "The G-PID information is not enough to have a complete choice since
>  the penultimate hop node has to distinguish between interfaces with
>  the same TSG (e.g. 1.25Gbps) whether the interface is able to support
>  the right hierarchy, i.e. it is possible to have two interfaces both
>  at 1.25 TSG but only one is supporting ODU0.
> 
>  A dedicated optional object should to be defined in order to carry
>  the multiplexing hierarchy and have a more precise choice capability.
>  In this way, when the penultimate node receives the GENERALIZED LABEL
>  REQUEST Object, the G-PID value together with the ODU bandwdith
>  included into the Traffic Parameters Object allow desuming the
>  correct TSG value."
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger
> Sent: mercoled 5 ottobre 2011 19.16
> To: BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> Cc: CCAMP
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
> 
> Guys,
> 	I think we're going in circles.  Let me try a different question that hopefully can help us resolve this.
> 
> Are there *any* cases where an LSP's supported TSG impacts label allocation/selection?
> 
> If the answer is yes, then TSG belongs in the traffic parameters.
> 
> Thanks,
> Lou
> 
> PS your reference to some text in the info document, rather than keeping us guessing, can you point to a section and paragraph number or just copy and paste the text?
> 
> On 10/4/2011 9:33 AM, BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO) wrote:
>> Lou,
>>  
>> See in line
>>  
>> Pietro and Sergio
>>  
>> ---------------------
>>  
>> Pietro, Sergio,
>>  
>> It looks like we may be converging.  We agree that encoding isn't 
>> optimal, and you only have a slight preference for G-PID.  For me the 
>> tipping point is on intermediate node use of TSG*.  At this point you 
>> have said that this is never needed.  It's my understanding that this 
>> isn't correct, and there are cases where it is needed.  Consider the 
>> case where there is a 1.25G TSG LSP (e.g., ODU0 or ODUflex) that is 
>> being signaled across a topology composed of ODU2 H-LSPs, some of 
>> which can support 1.25G TSG and others that only support 2.5G TSG.
>> Don't the intermediate nodes need to understand the TSG of the LSP in 
>> order to select the proper outgoing H-LSPs?
>>  
>> [[ALU]] No. The point is that the intermediate nodes have only to 
>> consider the LSP signal type (ODU1, ODU2 etc..), and not the TSG that 
>> the LSP exports to its clients at the endpoints. So it happens that an 
>> ODU0 can only be carried on H-LSPs that export 1.25 TSG to their 
>> clients (by G.709 definition). An ODU2 instead can be carried on 
>> H-LSPs that export either 1.25 or 2.5. Where you have to consider both 
>> the LSP type and the TSG exported to LSP clients is the penultimate 
>> node. On that node the interface choice has to be made in such a way 
>> that the endpoint
>> can:
>>  
>> 1) support the signal type indicated by the LSP
>> 2) structure the LSP with the required adaptation
>> 3) support all the required hierarchies
>>  
>>  
>> (*) In a private mail (which the author may resend to the list) the 
>> point was also made that by using G-PID for TSG we loose the ability 
>> to identify the client adaptation supported by the LSP, e.g., Ethernet.
>>  
>> [[ALU]]
>> In OTN an ODUj LSP either carries an ODUj client or a client of 
>> different technology. When we set up a ODU3 H-LSP that will carry an 
>> ODUj client, the G-PID of the ODU3 H-LSP simply indicates that the 
>> client is an ODUj.
>> In OTN when you structure a payload you are not defining which will be 
>> the signal types of the carried ODU.
>> Once that the ODU3 H-LSP is structured, in order to carry Ethernet you 
>> should set up a client ODUj that in turn will carry Ethernet. The 
>> G-PID of this ODUj will contain Ethernet.
>>  
>> Instead related to this point what we can add is that in case of 
>> not-ODU clients the TSG is a useless parameter. This would imply to 
>> have up to three signal types for every ODU , For example you would 
>> need an ODU2-1.25, an ODU2-2.5 and an ODU2-neutral (e.g for Ethernet client).
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> Please see below for detailed responses.
>>  
>> On 10/4/2011 4:31 AM, GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO) wrote:
>>> Hello Lou,
>>>
>>> we think we have understood your motivations and we think that we 
>>> could narrow the choice to just G-PID and Signal type.
>>>
>>  
>> It looks like we may be converging.
>>  
>>> We would not consider encoding because in case of TDM it usually 
>>> contains the nature of the path  (in this case G.709 ODUk (Digital
>>> Path)=12 ) and not the container type and attributes.
>>>
>>  
>> Well I don't mind us reaching the same conclusion, even if our 
>> rational isn't the same.
>>  
>>> We have yet a slight preference for G-PID that is motivated by the 
>>> fact the G.709, in case of structuring, explicitly foresees two 
>>> different payloads named ODTUjk (for G.709v2) and ODTUk.ts (for 
>>> G.709v3). The current GPID value defined in RFC 4328 is currently 
>>> associated to the ODTUjk only.
>>  
>> Huh?  RFC4328 says:
>>  
>>    The G-PID (16 bits field), as defined in [RFC3471], identifies the
>>    payload carried by an LSP, i.e., an identifier of the client layer of
>>    that LSP.  This identifier is used by the endpoints of the G.709 LSP.
>>  
>>    The G-PID can take one of the following values when the client
>>    payload is transported over the Digital Path layer, in addition to
>>    the payload identifiers defined in [RFC3471]:
>>  
>> Clearly the rfc envisions use of multiple G-PIDs based on the use of 
>> the
>> G.709 LSP.
>>  
>> [ALU] The only value related to ODUjk is 47. The other (linked to
>> G.709
>> v3) can not be present .since G.709v3 was not present at that time.
>>  
>>> The extension of G-PID would be one to one consistent with G.709.
>>  
>> This is where our perspective diverges.
>>  
>> [ALU] Why?
>>  
>>>
>>> We have also to notice that we are using the same signal type value 
>>> both in routing and in signaling. Surely we would avoid a duplication 
>>> of data in the ISCD just to differentiate the TSGs. (for example
>>> ODU2-2.5 and ODU2-1.25). This could happen on interfaces that have 
>>> auto-payload type on.
>>  
>> I addressed this point in my original mail:
>>>> Hereto, the 1.25 types would imply support for both 1.25 and 2.5 
>>>> types in routing.
>>  
>> Also note that the routing draft currently says:
>>    A single ISCD MAY be used for the advertisement of unbundled or
>>    bundled links supporting homogeneous multiplexing hierarchies and the
>>    same Tributary Slot Granularity (TSG).  A different ISCD MUST be used
>>    for each different muxing hierarchy (muxing tree in the following
>>    examples) and different TSG supported within the TE Link, if it
>>    includes component links with differing characteristics.
>>  
>>  
>> [ALU] We addressed the point also in a previous mail in which you seem 
>> to converge in the opportunity to have at least two different signal 
>> types values.
>> 1.25 does not imply the support also for both 1.25/2.5 as reported in 
>> this snip of a previous mail.
>> Snip>
>>> To
>>> complicate things, it is not always true that an interface supporting
>>> 1.25 tributary slots can also support 2.5 tributary slots, because 
>>> this specific functionality (known as fallback support setting 
>>> auto-payload flag to ON) can be either not present in HW or disabled 
>>> by NMS.
>>>
>>  
>> Well this is something I didn't have in my original mail.  It was my 
>> understanding from previous discussions, that fallback support was a 
>> required in G.709-v3.  If it is optional (either in implementation or 
>> in
>> operation) we need to ensure that both cases (1.25 + 2.5 support, or 
>> just 1.25 support) are fully covered.
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>>
>>> On the other hand the usage of signal type could avoid the need to 
>>> perform consistency checks between G-PID value and signal type value.
>>> (e.g ODU4 with 2.5 TSG)
>>>
>>> About G-PID we have one question. The definition you wrote in RFC3471 
>>> for G-PID is : "An identifier of the payload carried by an LSP, i.e., 
>>> an identifier of the client layer of that LSP.  This is used by the 
>>> nodes at the endpoints of the LSP, and in some cases by the 
>>> penultimate hop."
>>>
>>> This definition standing, could you elaborate how can be derived from 
>>> what described that G-PID is "an end-point only field " ? Did we miss 
>>> something in the definition ?
>>  
>> Wouldn't you agree that client layer adaptation is only within the 
>> scope of the endpoints?  The sole exception that I can think of is PHP.
>> Perhaps I'm missing something.
>>  
>> [ALU] We have in mind a different case: supposing to have an ODU2 LSP 
>> carrying an Ethernet client and suppose you have an OTU2 interface 
>> able to terminate ODU2 and extract Ethernet. At penultimate this 
>> interface may be selected for the ODU2 LSP and selection criteria is 
>> the G-PID value indicating Ethernet payload and not for example FiberChanne/ATM.
>>  
>>>
>>> Anyway, apart the slight preference motivated above we do not have a 
>>> strong position on this issue. As co-authors of the draft we would 
>>> like to collect WG opinion included at first our co-authors' opinion 
>>> and report the WG decision in the drafts.
>>  
>> Sure.  Per IETF process, a WG document represents WG consensus.
>>  
>>>
>>> Last but not least, we would like to remind that info draft reports 
>>> the need for a optional dedicated object containing the hierarchies 
>>> that should be supported by the endpoints. Independently from the 
>>> solution for TSG, this object is anyway required.
>>>
>>  
>> I'm not sure which text you are referring to, but if you think it's 
>> covered in the routing draft, then we're in sync.
>>  
>> [ALU] The text is in the G.709-info draft , and is related to a 
>> dedicated optional object to insert in signalling , not in routing, 
>> where the supported hierarchies are already present.
>>  
>> Much thanks,
>> Lou
>>  
>>  
>>  
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> 
> 
> 
> 

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To: Andrea Zanardi <andrea.zanardi@create-net.org>
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 10:17:47 -0400
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP]	I-D	Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
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Hi Andrea,=20
On Oct 4, 2011, at 3:03 PM, Andrea Zanardi wrote:

> Hi Acee,
>=20
> On 10/04/2011 07:03 PM, Acee Lindem wrote:
>> Hi Andrea,
>>=20
>> On Oct 4, 2011, at 10:10 AM, Andrea Zanardi wrote:
> ....
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> My point is in avoiding ambiguities: if the support for multiple LSA =
instances for the
>>> same entity top TLV is requested, it should be explicitly stated as =
mandatory
>>> (possibly providing explicit rules for the subdivision, as in Chap. =
3 of the draft).
>>=20
>> There are not multiple instances of the same LSA. Rather they are =
unique LSAs,
>> as identified by the (Type, Link State ID, Advertising Router) tuple.
>> In this case, they have different Link State IDs.
>> One thing that is confusing is that RFC 3630 refers to the portion of =
the Link State ID
>> providing uniqueness as "Instance".
>> Also note that draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt =
doesn't include any
>> additions to the Link TLV so I'm not sure why you are citing it in =
discussions of the new top-level TLVs.
>=20
> I was replying to Young email providing the Link TLV and
> RFC 3630 as an example of the usage of multiple LSAs and of
> sending LSA updates with missing sub-TLVs;
> I was discussing about the correctness of the example,
> that's why I was citing the Link TLV.

Ok.=20

>=20
> The usage of the word "instance" is probably not correct.
>=20
> What I meant by "multiple LSA instances" was different LSAs (with =
distinct LS ID
> and both present in the TE DB at the same time) describing the same =
entity
> (e.g. the same link by including the same Link Type / Link ID =
sub-TLVs)
> each one providing a subset of the information (e.g. a subset of the =
other sub-TLVs).
>=20
> Considering the draft TLVs, this should be the case of Chap. 3.2.1 =
"Sub-Division by Options", e.g.:
> two LSAs with a Resource Block Information sub-TLV with the same RB =
Set Field
> and different sub-sets of optional sub-sub-TLVs.
>=20
> To avoid ambiguities, it should be clear that the options described in =
Chap. 3
> are the only options and that, even if they "can" be used when =
generating
> the LSAs, they "must" all be supported when receiving and 'using' the =
LSAs.

Agreed. Splitting information across multiple LSAs will result in some =
added complexity.=20
For TLVs or sub-TLVs that are required for a single WSON computation, =
the WSON path computation must concatenate them when doing that =
computation.=20
Today, multiple OSPFv3 Router-LSAs may be originated and implementation =
MUST use the concatenation when doing the OSPFv3 SPF computation.=20

Thanks,
Acee=20

>=20
>=20
> Regards,
> Andrea
>=20
>> Thanks,
>> Acee
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Regards,
>>> Andrea
>>>=20
>>> On 10/03/2011 09:34 PM, Leeyoung wrote:
>>>> Hi Andrea,
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks for your interest and input to this issue.
>>>>=20
>>>> My overall point was that the current GMPLS TE LSA (per RFC 3630) =
does not specify detail implementations as to how to divide up the TE =
Link TLVs into static vs. dynamic nor how to use multiple TE LSAs. The =
current WSON document follows a similar document philosophy with the =
GMPLS predecessor.
>>>>=20
>>>> Regarding your point on how the TE DB works in regard to missing =
sub-TLVs are deleted seems to me a particular implementation, which is =
most simplistic in nature.
>>>>=20
>>>> Best Regards,
>>>> Young
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On =
Behalf Of Andrea Zanardi
>>>> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 9:14 AM
>>>> To: Leeyoung
>>>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: =
draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>=20
>>>> Hi Young,
>>>>=20
>>>> I was following the discussion and I have a doubt about
>>>> your example related to the TE Link TLV.
>>>>=20
>>>> It's true that the attributes sub-TLV are not mandatory per RFC =
3630,
>>>> but I don't think that means that they can be not included in an =
LSA update
>>>> if unchanged (implying that the previous value persists).
>>>>=20
>>>> As for my understanding of how OSPF-TE works, the managed TE DB =
entity is the LSA.
>>>> When an LSA update is processed, the previous version is deleted =
from the TE DB
>>>> and it is replaced by the new one: link attributes related to =
missing sub-TLV are
>>>> deleted, so they must be present even if unchanged.
>>>>=20
>>>> In theory, the set of link attributes could be statically divided
>>>> in two different LSAs instances (updated independently),
>>>> but I don't think current implementations handle this scenario
>>>> (also because, in my opinion, it's not suggested by RFC 3630 and
>>>>   it gives no rule on how to divide them).
>>>>=20
>>>> But I ask to the mailing list if this is the correct =
interpretation.
>>>>=20
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Andrea
>>>>=20
>>>> On 09/30/2011 11:16 PM, Leeyoung wrote:
>>>>> Hi Pierre,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I got your point. Let me ask you this question. In the current =
GMPLS OSPF TE Link TLV are defined under Opaque TE LSA with the =
following attributes:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> - TE Metric
>>>>> - max B/W
>>>>> - max reservable b/w
>>>>> - unreserved b/w
>>>>> - Admin Group
>>>>> - Link Protection Type
>>>>> - SRLG
>>>>> - ISCD
>>>>> - etc.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> And these are a mixture of static and dynamic information and yet =
they are assembled together as one TE Link TLV. For instance the ISCD is =
quite similar to Resource Block Info in that it does not change often =
unless there are new elements added in the node or configuration changes =
and yet it is packaged together with other dynamic information.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Why?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> There are many ways to keep static/unchanged information from =
being flooded. Only the Link Type and Link ID which are mandatory in the =
TE Link TLV per RFC3630. All other sub-TLV are optional and may occur at =
most once (when there are enough changes from the previous period that =
deserve an update) and need not be included in the TE Link TLV when =
there is no need for updating.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I really don't see the need for a separate top-level TLV and/or a =
separate LSA for the Resource Block information.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Young
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) =
[mailto:pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.com]
>>>>> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 9:39 AM
>>>>> To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
>>>>> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: =
draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Hi Young,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I understand the content of your answer, but I'm not satisfied =
with it.
>>>>> My concern deals with providing a unique reading/interpretation of =
the OSPF-TE extensions.
>>>>> We would like to make sure that any implementation complying to =
the drafts would provide the same LSAs when applied to the same network.
>>>>> With this perspective in mind, we wish to get drafts with =
sufficient documentation to make sure the LSA design process to be =
depicted, by design rules.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Hence the content of your answer leaving me the "opportunity to do =
as I wish", is not pleasing me, I would rather have strict rules, and =
discussions with the WG on the design of those.
>>>>> That is why a first design rule, we could agree on is: to gather =
the Resource Block Information TLVs inside a dedicated LSA, possibly =
with a dedicated top-level TLV (which in my mind allows to enforce this =
design rule).
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> - Pierre
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>>> De : Leeyoung [mailto:leeyoung@huawei.com]
>>>>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 28 septembre 2011 00:06
>>>>> =C0 : PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE); ccamp@ietf.org
>>>>> Objet : RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: =
draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Hi Pierre,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Please see-inline for my reply to your first point.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Young
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) =
[mailto:pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.com]
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 3:28 AM
>>>>> To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
>>>>> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: =
draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Hi Young, and CCAMPers,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I was off the mailing lists for the last two weeks and being back =
I notice a lot of exchanges, which I'm very glad of.
>>>>> I've also noticed many drafts have been updated.
>>>>> Concerning this specific =
draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06, I wanted to comment =
section 3.
>>>>> Back in Quebec, I expressed my point of view (shared with Cyril, =
Julien and Giovanni) that current drafts were lacking guidance regarding =
the way to design LSAs that were to depict an WSON node with OEOs.
>>>>> This section 3 provides additional material to help designing the =
LSA.
>>>>> I would like to know whether authors are willing to pursue further =
in this direction, which is to my mind a real corner stone, that would =
help everyone agree on a solution.
>>>>> A first point could concern the Resource Block Information =
(reminder:<ResourceBlockInfo>    ::=3D =
([<ResourceSet>]<InputConstraints>    <ProcessingCapabilities>    =
<OutputConstraints>):
>>>>>       We all agree that these information are static, that we =
should not replicate this TLV whatever the number not the layout of OEO =
boards of a given type.
>>>>> Then, we could dedicate a specific independant flooding entity. =
This would be defined once for all, and that would not leave room to =
different interpretations.
>>>>> What about this first point?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> YOUNG>>    If I understand you correctly, what you are saying is =
since the Resource Block Info sub-TLV is very static in nature, =
advertisement of this sub-TLV should be treated differently from the =
rest of static-TLVs (which may change over time). Is this what you are =
saying?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> If my interpretation of your comment is correct,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> - The current mechanism allows what you want: Please see the first =
paragraph in Section 3.2
>>>>>     "In the highly unlikely event that a WSON sub-TLV by itself =
would
>>>>>     result in an LSA exceeding the MTU, all five WSON specific =
sub-TLVs
>>>>>     in this document provide mechanisms that allow them to be =
subdivided
>>>>>     into smaller sub-TLVs that can be sent in separate OSPF TE =
LSAs."
>>>>>=20
>>>>> According to this clause, you can separate the Resource Block Info =
Sub-TLV as the sole entry defined in the Optical Node property TLV in a =
separate TE LSA from the rest if you will. Nothing prevents this =
particular way of packaging. (Isn't this what you meant "a specific =
independent flooding entity"?)
>>>>>=20
>>>>> - Please let me know if this explanation satisfies you. Thanks --- =
Young
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Pierre
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>>> De : ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] De la =
part de Leeyoung Envoy=E9 : jeudi 15 septembre 2011 21:59 =C0 : =
ccamp@ietf.org Objet : Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: =
draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> After 05 version publication, Acee provided a number of valuable =
comments and suggestions. This revision (06) reflects those changes. =
Please note the following updates:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> - Change the title of the draft to "GMPLS OSPF Enhancement..." =
from "OSPF Enhancement..." to make sure the changes apply to the GMPLS =
OSPF rather than the base OSPF.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> - Add specific OSPF procedures on how sub-TLVs are packaged per =
[RFC3630] and editorial change including avoiding "multiple instances of =
TE LSA" to "multiple TE LSAs".
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Your comments are always appreciated. Thanks.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Best Regards.
>>>>> Young
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On =
Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf.org
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 2:48 PM
>>>>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
>>>>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
>>>>> Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: =
draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>=20
>>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts =
directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and =
Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>     Title           : GMPLS OSPF Enhancement for Signal and =
Network Element Compatibility for Wavelength Switched Optical Networks
>>>>>     Author(s)       : Young Lee
>>>>>                            Greg M. Bernstein
>>>>>     Filename        : =
draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>     Pages           : 14
>>>>>     Date            : 2011-09-15
>>>>>=20
>>>>>     This document provides GMPLS OSPF routing enhancements to =
support
>>>>>     signal compatibility constraints associated with WSON network
>>>>>     elements. These routing enhancements are required in common =
optical
>>>>>     or hybrid electro-optical networks where not all of the =
optical
>>>>>     signals in the network are compatible with all network =
elements
>>>>>     participating in the network.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>     This compatibility constraint model is applicable to common =
optical
>>>>>     or hybrid electro optical systems such as OEO switches, =
regenerators,
>>>>>     and wavelength converters since such systems can be limited to
>>>>>     processing only certain types of WSON signals.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>>>>> =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibi=
lity-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>>>=20
>>>>> This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
>>>>> =
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibil=
ity-ospf-06.txt
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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From pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com  Mon Oct 10 07:55:28 2011
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From: "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 16:54:54 +0200
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
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Hello Lou,

Please see in line.

Pietro and Sergio


> Let's consider the slightly more complicated case:
> In this case an ODU0 LSP is being switched at a transit node
> interconnected via the FAs/H-LSPs described above.
>
>  ---- A ---- B ---- C ----(D -XC- D)---- F ---- G -----H ----
> Links/switching
>  ODU0-|                    |-ODU0-|                    |-ODU0
>       |-ODU2-|      |-ODU2-|      |-ODU2-|      |-ODU2-|
>              |-ODU3-|                    |-ODU3-|
> LSPs
>  |------------------------ ODU0 LSP -------------------------|
>       |---- ODU2 H-LSP ----|      |---- ODU2 H-LSP ----|
>  ODU3 H-LSPs |------|                    |------|  (could be a link)

> So I think the key question to answer are:

> 1) What information is used to allocate the label used on the ODU0 LSP
> for the A <-> D hop (provided by the left ODU2 H-LSP)?

[[ALU]] The information used for the ODU 0 label is:

- The FA is an ODU2 FA and declares to support the ODU0.
( before setting the ODU0 LSP the FA has been set in such a way to export 1=
.25 TSG to the ODU0 client, otherwise the ODU0 would not have been declared=
).=20

Please note that the usage of ODU0 is slightly misleading (even if more eas=
y to explain) because the ODU 0 has only one choice for the TSG: 1.25.

A more suitable example would be an ODU1 in place of ODU0.=20
In this specific case the label would be dependent from the TSG exported by=
 the ODU2 FA LSP to its client.=20

> 2) What information is used on D to provision its ODU0 cross-connect
> (switch) and select the proper out-going interface (H-LSP)?

[[ALU]] The cross connection is provisioned knowing the incoming and outgoi=
ng interfaces. It is the ODU0 signal that is cross connected and not the tr=
ibutary slots, that have only link local meaning.

Selection of the outgoing interface: Any interface/FA connected to node H
and supporting ODU0 is selectable. Which interface is decided with a local =
policy. (note this is valid for each ODU LSP independently from its type) =
=20

> 3) What information is used to allocate the label used on the ODU0 LSP
> for the D <-> H hop (provided by the right ODU2 H-LSP)?

[[ALU]] the same as point 1

> 4) Do any the answers change if A and H are themselves intermediate
> nodes on the ODU0 LSP?

[[ALU]] Nothing changes. The problem is not the ODU0 LSP that cannot be str=
uctured.


> It seems to me that TSG is part of the information needed at the ODU0
> transit nodes for proper resource allocation, output link (H-LSP)
> selection, and label allocation.  Am I missing something?

[[ALU]] Yes. Let us try to make an analogy with SDH and ATM.

If you have to transport ATM over a SDH VC4 what happens is that
a VC4 LSP is set up, and the LSP declares GPID =3D ATM.

The structure at 1.25/2.5 in OTH has the same role of ATM in the example ab=
ove. The structures at 1.25 and 2.5 for the data plane are two
different payloads that in G.709 are characterized by two different Payload=
 types (PT): PT20 for 2.5 and PT 21 for 1.25.

The payload has to be considered only when selecting the last interface/FA.=
=20
The last interface/FA must be selected in such a way to be
able to support the signal type of the LSP being set up and, in addition, t=
o grant that the LSP termination supports a 2.5/1.25 payload structure depe=
nding from the client payload requested by signaling. (Note that it is the =
same if the payload is Ethernet or something else instead of 2.5/1.25 paylo=
ad structure).
In your example this is expected to be applied when setting up the ODU2 FA =
LSPs.

Hope this clarifies. =20

Much thanks,
Lou


From jdrake@juniper.net  Mon Oct 10 08:26:23 2011
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 08:22:50 -0700
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
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Snipped, comments inline.

> -----Original Message-----
>=20
> [[ALU]] The cross connection is provisioned knowing the incoming and
> outgoing interfaces. It is the ODU0 signal that is cross connected and
> not the tributary slots, that have only link local meaning.
>=20
> Selection of the outgoing interface: Any interface/FA connected to node
> H
> and supporting ODU0 is selectable. Which interface is decided with a
> local policy. (note this is valid for each ODU LSP independently from
> its type)
[JD]=20

Just to be clear, the ERO can specify a specific interface to node H.

>=20
> > It seems to me that TSG is part of the information needed at the ODU0
> > transit nodes for proper resource allocation, output link (H-LSP)
> > selection, and label allocation.  Am I missing something?
>=20
> [[ALU]] Yes. Let us try to make an analogy with SDH and ATM.
>=20
> If you have to transport ATM over a SDH VC4 what happens is that
> a VC4 LSP is set up, and the LSP declares GPID =3D ATM.
>=20
> The structure at 1.25/2.5 in OTH has the same role of ATM in the
> example above. The structures at 1.25 and 2.5 for the data plane are
> two
> different payloads that in G.709 are characterized by two different
> Payload types (PT): PT20 for 2.5 and PT 21 for 1.25.
>=20
> The payload has to be considered only when selecting the last
> interface/FA.
> The last interface/FA must be selected in such a way to be
> able to support the signal type of the LSP being set up and, in
> addition, to grant that the LSP termination supports a 2.5/1.25 payload
> structure depending from the client payload requested by signaling.
> (Note that it is the same if the payload is Ethernet or something else
> instead of 2.5/1.25 payload structure).
> In your example this is expected to be applied when setting up the ODU2
> FA LSPs.
[JD]=20

I have been having trouble with this for some time.  Why is the penultimate=
 interface any different?  Using your example of an ODU1, it seems to me th=
at any node on the path of that ODU1 that switches the ODU1 would need to u=
nderstand its TSG.  In your ATM example above, the E2E ATM LSP can transit =
multiple VC4 LSPs and the nodes at either end of each would need to be able=
 to switch ATM.

>=20
> Hope this clarifies.
>=20
> Much thanks,
> Lou
>=20
> _______________________________________________
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> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D	Action:	draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
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Hi Andrea,

I see your point more clearly. You are concerned about the interoperability=
 issue beyond the specification of the protocol to ensure two implementatio=
ns should interoperate each other. To that end, please propose some text. T=
hanks.

Best Regards,
Young

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrea Zanardi [mailto:andrea.zanardi@create-net.org]=20
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 11:53 AM
To: Leeyoung
Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility=
-ospf-06.txt

Hi Young,

I think I clarified what I meant in my reply to Acee comments.

Anyway, my original comments were related to:

a.  the possibility of sending a TE Link LSA update (same ID, new sequence =
number)
     without some sub-TLVs if their value is unchanged, as I understood whe=
n you wrote

     "All other sub-TLV are optional and may occur at most once
      (when there are enough changes from the previous period that deserve =
an update)
      and _need not_ be included in the TE Link TLV when there is no need f=
or updating."

    (but correct me if I misunderstood your sentence)

    This clearly can't work due to how the TE DB synchronization works.

    Note that also creating a new LSA (new ID) with only the changed sub-TL=
Vs doesn't
    work, as you will have two different values for the same sub-TLV
    (as the old LSA and the new LSA are both present in the TE DB)

    I read the "may occur at least once" in RFC 3630 as:
    "it may be omitted if it does not apply to the link";
    but if it applies, it must be present in all updates
    (unless you want to clear its value)


b. the fact that RFC 3630 allows the possibility of splitting the
    set of sub-TLVs of a TE Link in different LSAs (different IDs)
    [the implementation I checked doesn't support this scenario]

    This could be a matter of interpretation; but as it's not explicitly
    stated, the simplest interpretation is usually the one accepted.

I perfectly agree that splitting a set of attributes related to
a 'logical' instance in two or more different LSAs is a viable solution
(as far as you keep the subsets disjoint and the support for this
solution is explicitly requested; and this is somehow stated
in the draft in Chap. 3.2.1).

Even if, in my opinion, would be preferable to have some rule
defined; especially if the reason for the splitting is the dynamics
of the updates and not just the size.

Sorry if there has been any misunderstanding.

Regards
Andrea


On 10/08/2011 12:46 AM, Leeyoung wrote:
> Hi Andrea,
>
> Sorry for my late response to your questions. Please see in-line for my c=
omments. Thanks.
>
> Young
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrea Zanardi [mailto:andrea.zanardi@create-net.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 9:10 AM
> To: Leeyoung
> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibili=
ty-ospf-06.txt
>
> Hi Young,
>
> with respect to the TE DB management of missing sub-TLVs in LSA updates,
> I checked the behavior of a commercial OSPF-TE implementation.
>
> YOUNG>>  Here I assumed the LSAs are two different LSAs (identified by th=
e LSA ID).
>
> The point is that, if the TE DB is the set of LSAs, that's how it works
> as the TE DB contains only the latest version of an LSA instance
> and you can not merge the content of different LSA versions
> (you could keep an internal model for the links with their attributes
> updated independently, but when two neighbors synchronize their DB,
> they synchronize the LSA set, not the internal models).
>
> YOUNG>>  Here is a bit confusing. The TE DB synchronization process check=
s the same LSA and the sequence number (which you are referring as the vers=
ion of an LSA instance). When the node identifies the same LSA with differe=
nt sequence number, then it flushes the LSA with the lower sequence number.=
 But the TE DB synch process does not check each other for different LSAs (=
which is identified by the LSA ID).
>
>
>
> With respect to RFC 3630, it states:
>
>    2.4.2.  Link TLV
>
>       The Link TLV describes a single link.
>
> I read 'describes' as 'fully describes' (not 'partially describes');
> so I don't see where it supports/suggests the division of the attributes =
on multiple
> LSA instances and that's why I think that multiple LSA instances for the
> same link is not supported by current implementations.
>
> YOUNG>>  RFC3630 differentiates the mandatory element from other entities=
 that can appear "at most" once.
> This is from RFC 3630 Section 2.4.2:
>
>     The Link Type and Link ID sub-TLVs are mandatory, i.e., must appear
>     exactly once.  All other sub-TLVs defined here may occur at most
>     once.  These restrictions need not apply to future sub-TLVs.
>     Unrecognized sub-TLVs are ignored.
>
> YOUNG>>  It does not mandate other sub-TLVs to appear exactly once; it ra=
ther says it may occur "at most once" -- sound like to me
> YOUNG>>  this is an optional element.
>
> It's a possible implementation and it's fine to suggest it for other top =
level TLVs,
> but it's not the one defined by RFC 3630 for TE Links, in my opinion.
>
> My point is in avoiding ambiguities: if the support for multiple LSA inst=
ances for the
> same entity top TLV is requested, it should be explicitly stated as manda=
tory
> (possibly providing explicit rules for the subdivision, as in Chap. 3 of =
the draft).
>
>
> YOUNG>>  When you have different sub-sets of TLV's to be packaged under t=
he OPSF TE LSA, you can use a different LSA ID from the previously used one=
 to avoid ambiguities. Then these are simply two different LSAs and would n=
ot confuse the TE DB sync process as well as flooding process.
>
> Regards,
> Andrea
>
> On 10/03/2011 09:34 PM, Leeyoung wrote:
>> Hi Andrea,
>>
>> Thanks for your interest and input to this issue.
>>
>> My overall point was that the current GMPLS TE LSA (per RFC 3630) does n=
ot specify detail implementations as to how to divide up the TE Link TLVs i=
nto static vs. dynamic nor how to use multiple TE LSAs. The current WSON do=
cument follows a similar document philosophy with the GMPLS predecessor.
>>
>> Regarding your point on how the TE DB works in regard to missing sub-TLV=
s are deleted seems to me a particular implementation, which is most simpli=
stic in nature.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Young
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf O=
f Andrea Zanardi
>> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 9:14 AM
>> To: Leeyoung
>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibil=
ity-ospf-06.txt
>>
>> Hi Young,
>>
>> I was following the discussion and I have a doubt about
>> your example related to the TE Link TLV.
>>
>> It's true that the attributes sub-TLV are not mandatory per RFC 3630,
>> but I don't think that means that they can be not included in an LSA upd=
ate
>> if unchanged (implying that the previous value persists).
>>
>> As for my understanding of how OSPF-TE works, the managed TE DB entity i=
s the LSA.
>> When an LSA update is processed, the previous version is deleted from th=
e TE DB
>> and it is replaced by the new one: link attributes related to missing su=
b-TLV are
>> deleted, so they must be present even if unchanged.
>>
>> In theory, the set of link attributes could be statically divided
>> in two different LSAs instances (updated independently),
>> but I don't think current implementations handle this scenario
>> (also because, in my opinion, it's not suggested by RFC 3630 and
>>     it gives no rule on how to divide them).
>>
>> But I ask to the mailing list if this is the correct interpretation.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Andrea
>>
>> On 09/30/2011 11:16 PM, Leeyoung wrote:
>>> Hi Pierre,
>>>
>>> I got your point. Let me ask you this question. In the current GMPLS OS=
PF TE Link TLV are defined under Opaque TE LSA with the following attribute=
s:
>>>
>>> - TE Metric
>>> - max B/W
>>> - max reservable b/w
>>> - unreserved b/w
>>> - Admin Group
>>> - Link Protection Type
>>> - SRLG
>>> - ISCD
>>> - etc.
>>>
>>> And these are a mixture of static and dynamic information and yet they =
are assembled together as one TE Link TLV. For instance the ISCD is quite s=
imilar to Resource Block Info in that it does not change often unless there=
 are new elements added in the node or configuration changes and yet it is =
packaged together with other dynamic information.
>>>
>>> Why?
>>>
>>> There are many ways to keep static/unchanged information from being flo=
oded. Only the Link Type and Link ID which are mandatory in the TE Link TLV=
 per RFC3630. All other sub-TLV are optional and may occur at most once (wh=
en there are enough changes from the previous period that deserve an update=
) and need not be included in the TE Link TLV when there is no need for upd=
ating.
>>>
>>> I really don't see the need for a separate top-level TLV and/or a separ=
ate LSA for the Resource Block information.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Young
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) [mailto:pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.com]
>>> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 9:39 AM
>>> To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
>>> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibi=
lity-ospf-06.txt
>>>
>>> Hi Young,
>>>
>>> I understand the content of your answer, but I'm not satisfied with it.
>>> My concern deals with providing a unique reading/interpretation of the =
OSPF-TE extensions.
>>> We would like to make sure that any implementation complying to the dra=
fts would provide the same LSAs when applied to the same network.
>>> With this perspective in mind, we wish to get drafts with sufficient do=
cumentation to make sure the LSA design process to be depicted, by design r=
ules.
>>>
>>> Hence the content of your answer leaving me the "opportunity to do as I=
 wish", is not pleasing me, I would rather have strict rules, and discussio=
ns with the WG on the design of those.
>>> That is why a first design rule, we could agree on is: to gather the Re=
source Block Information TLVs inside a dedicated LSA, possibly with a dedic=
ated top-level TLV (which in my mind allows to enforce this design rule).
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> - Pierre
>>>
>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>> De : Leeyoung [mailto:leeyoung@huawei.com]
>>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 28 septembre 2011 00:06
>>> =C0 : PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE); ccamp@ietf.org
>>> Objet : RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibil=
ity-ospf-06.txt
>>>
>>> Hi Pierre,
>>>
>>> Please see-inline for my reply to your first point.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Young
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) [mailto:pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.com]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 3:28 AM
>>> To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
>>> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibi=
lity-ospf-06.txt
>>>
>>> Hi Young, and CCAMPers,
>>>
>>> I was off the mailing lists for the last two weeks and being back I not=
ice a lot of exchanges, which I'm very glad of.
>>> I've also noticed many drafts have been updated.
>>> Concerning this specific draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-osp=
f-06, I wanted to comment section 3.
>>> Back in Quebec, I expressed my point of view (shared with Cyril, Julien=
 and Giovanni) that current drafts were lacking guidance regarding the way =
to design LSAs that were to depict an WSON node with OEOs.
>>> This section 3 provides additional material to help designing the LSA.
>>> I would like to know whether authors are willing to pursue further in t=
his direction, which is to my mind a real corner stone, that would help eve=
ryone agree on a solution.
>>> A first point could concern the Resource Block Information (reminder:<R=
esourceBlockInfo>    ::=3D ([<ResourceSet>]<InputConstraints>    <Processin=
gCapabilities>    <OutputConstraints>):
>>>         We all agree that these information are static, that we should =
not replicate this TLV whatever the number not the layout of OEO boards of =
a given type.
>>> Then, we could dedicate a specific independant flooding entity. This wo=
uld be defined once for all, and that would not leave room to different int=
erpretations.
>>> What about this first point?
>>>
>>> YOUNG>>    If I understand you correctly, what you are saying is since =
the Resource Block Info sub-TLV is very static in nature, advertisement of =
this sub-TLV should be treated differently from the rest of static-TLVs (wh=
ich may change over time). Is this what you are saying?
>>>
>>> If my interpretation of your comment is correct,
>>>
>>> - The current mechanism allows what you want: Please see the first para=
graph in Section 3.2
>>>       "In the highly unlikely event that a WSON sub-TLV by itself would
>>>       result in an LSA exceeding the MTU, all five WSON specific sub-TL=
Vs
>>>       in this document provide mechanisms that allow them to be subdivi=
ded
>>>       into smaller sub-TLVs that can be sent in separate OSPF TE LSAs."
>>>
>>> According to this clause, you can separate the Resource Block Info Sub-=
TLV as the sole entry defined in the Optical Node property TLV in a separat=
e TE LSA from the rest if you will. Nothing prevents this particular way of=
 packaging. (Isn't this what you meant "a specific independent flooding ent=
ity"?)
>>>
>>> - Please let me know if this explanation satisfies you. Thanks --- Youn=
g
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Pierre
>>>
>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>> De : ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] De la part =
de Leeyoung Envoy=E9 : jeudi 15 septembre 2011 21:59 =C0 : ccamp@ietf.org O=
bjet : Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-o=
spf-06.txt
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> After 05 version publication, Acee provided a number of valuable commen=
ts and suggestions. This revision (06) reflects those changes. Please note =
the following updates:
>>>
>>> - Change the title of the draft to "GMPLS OSPF Enhancement..." from "OS=
PF Enhancement..." to make sure the changes apply to the GMPLS OSPF rather =
than the base OSPF.
>>>
>>> - Add specific OSPF procedures on how sub-TLVs are packaged per [RFC363=
0] and editorial change including avoiding "multiple instances of TE LSA" t=
o "multiple TE LSAs".
>>>
>>> Your comments are always appreciated. Thanks.
>>>
>>> Best Regards.
>>> Young
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of internet-drafts@ietf.org
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 2:48 PM
>>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
>>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
>>> Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility=
-ospf-06.txt
>>>
>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dire=
ctories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Pl=
ane Working Group of the IETF.
>>>
>>> 	Title           : GMPLS OSPF Enhancement for Signal and Network Elemen=
t Compatibility for Wavelength Switched Optical Networks
>>> 	Author(s)       : Young Lee
>>>                              Greg M. Bernstein
>>> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.t=
xt
>>> 	Pages           : 14
>>> 	Date            : 2011-09-15
>>>
>>>       This document provides GMPLS OSPF routing enhancements to support
>>>       signal compatibility constraints associated with WSON network
>>>       elements. These routing enhancements are required in common optic=
al
>>>       or hybrid electro-optical networks where not all of the optical
>>>       signals in the network are compatible with all network elements
>>>       participating in the network.
>>>
>>>       This compatibility constraint model is applicable to common optic=
al
>>>       or hybrid electro optical systems such as OEO switches, regenerat=
ors,
>>>       and wavelength converters since such systems can be limited to
>>>       processing only certain types of WSON signals.
>>>


--=20
--------------------------------------------------------
Andrea Zanardi
CREATE-NET
Engineering & Fast Prototyping (ENGINE) Area
Senior Engineer
Via alla Cascata 56/D - 38123 Povo Trento (Italy)
e-mail: andrea.zanardi@create-net.org
Tel: (+39) 0461 408400 - interno/extension 1407
Mobile: (+39) 340 0011837
Fax: (+39) 0461 421157
Skype: zanardi_andrea
www.create-net.org
--------------------------------------------------------

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From rrao@infinera.com  Mon Oct 10 10:08:58 2011
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From: Rajan Rao <rrao@infinera.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
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Lou,

When you say H-LSP, I think you are referring to the fact that it is not ad=
vertised as a Te-Link (i.e. FA) right?  If so, we will need the TSG informa=
tion as you have mentioned. Especially if you are creating nested H-LSP to =
carry ODU0 service.

I think you are referring to case-3 below. =20

Case 1) ODU2 H-LSPs are pre-created:
=20
The assumption is that BW is advertised for A-D & D-H  H-LSPs. So, ODU0 adv=
ertisement exists for this link. No need for additional TSG info.

Case 2) ODU2 H-LSPs are induced:=20
 =20
The assumption is that BW is advertised for A-D & D-H  H-LSPs. So, ODU0 adv=
ertisement exists for this link. No need for additional TSG info.
=20
Case 3) ODU2 H-LSPs are induced or pre-created but BW not advertised.
We will need TSG info here.=20

Thanks
Rajan

-----Original Message-----
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of L=
ou Berger
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 6:41 AM
To: Daniele Ceccarelli
Cc: CCAMP
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG



On 10/10/2011 9:06 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
> Hi Lou,
>=20
> Let's try with an example showing that in a muxing hierarchy not
> every layer must use the same TSG.=20

Sure, while helpful, I believe this is understood by all and not the
issue I'm trying to get at.

> Please consider the following
> path.
>=20
>                      IF1     IF2
> A ------ B -------- C ----------D
> |--ODU2--|          |---ODU2----|
>          |---ODU3---|
>=20
>=20
> Suppose an ODU2 from A to D is set up in order to carry an ODU0, so D
> needs to be able to perform ODU0->ODU2 demuxing. The ODU2 is carried
> over an ODU3 FA from B to C. B is not able to support ODU2 and can
> only carry it through an ODU3@2,5Gbps TSG. It does not care about the
> fact that the ODU2 is carrying and ODU0 and a 1,25 TSG is needed to
> extract it, since the extraction is performed by D.
>=20
> D advertises both hierarchy information and TSG capability on IF2:
> muxing hierarchy ODU0->ODU2 and TSG field =3D 01 (i.e. Both 1,25 and
> 2,5 supported).
>=20
> The ODU0 is terminated only on D, so B can forward the ODU2 over the
> ODU3 FA using a TSG =3D 2,5 Gbps *but* if multiple interfaces are
> present from C to D, C must choose an OTU2 inferface supporting an
> 1,25 TSG adaptation towards the client.
>=20
> In conclusion, when setting up an ODU2 LSP, that has to be able to
> extract an ODU0 in the termination node, TSG information carried in
> the ODU2 LSP signaling (so referred to ODU0 carried over it) has NO
> impact on the label allocation for the ODU2 LSP (in fact label
> allocation for link BC is @2,5 Gbps). Label allocation for the ODU2
> LSP is impacted by the TSG capability offered by the underlying ODU3
> link/FA.
>=20
> So the answer to you question is: The LSP's supported TSG does not
> impact the label allocation/selection. The label
> allocaction/selection is only impacted by the server link/FA TSG.
>=20
> As a further clarification, the reason why in our opinion the TSG is
> not relevant to the traffic parameters is that the type of LSP being
> set up does not influence the TSG of the server layer (which has
> already been fixed) but only the choice of the right server.

Let's consider the slightly more complicated case:
In this case an ODU0 LSP is being switched at a transit node
interconnected via the FAs/H-LSPs described above.

 ---- A ---- B ---- C ----(D -XC- D)---- F ---- G -----H ----
Links/switching
 ODU0-|                    |-ODU0-|                    |-ODU0
      |-ODU2-|      |-ODU2-|      |-ODU2-|      |-ODU2-|
             |-ODU3-|                    |-ODU3-|
LSPs
 |------------------------ ODU0 LSP -------------------------|
      |---- ODU2 H-LSP ----|      |---- ODU2 H-LSP ----|
 ODU3 H-LSPs |------|                    |------|  (could be a link)

So I think the key question to answer are:

1) What information is used to allocate the label used on the ODU0 LSP
for the A <-> D hop (provided by the left ODU2 H-LSP)?

2) What information is used on D to provision its ODU0 cross-connect
(switch) and select the proper out-going interface (H-LSP)?

3) What information is used to allocate the label used on the ODU0 LSP
for the D <-> H hop (provided by the right ODU2 H-LSP)?

4) Do any the answers change if A and H are themselves intermediate
nodes on the ODU0 LSP?

It seems to me that TSG is part of the information needed at the ODU0
transit nodes for proper resource allocation, output link (H-LSP)
selection, and label allocation.  Am I missing something?

Much thanks,
Lou

>=20
> Thanks
> Daniele, Sergio, Pietro
>=20
> PS. The piece of text in the info model referring to the optional object =
is in page 9, section 4.1:
> "The G-PID information is not enough to have a complete choice since
>  the penultimate hop node has to distinguish between interfaces with
>  the same TSG (e.g. 1.25Gbps) whether the interface is able to support
>  the right hierarchy, i.e. it is possible to have two interfaces both
>  at 1.25 TSG but only one is supporting ODU0.
>=20
>  A dedicated optional object should to be defined in order to carry
>  the multiplexing hierarchy and have a more precise choice capability.
>  In this way, when the penultimate node receives the GENERALIZED LABEL
>  REQUEST Object, the G-PID value together with the ODU bandwdith
>  included into the Traffic Parameters Object allow desuming the
>  correct TSG value."
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 Lou Berger
> Sent: mercoled=EC 5 ottobre 2011 19.16
> To: BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> Cc: CCAMP
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
>=20
> Guys,
> 	I think we're going in circles.  Let me try a different question that ho=
pefully can help us resolve this.
>=20
> Are there *any* cases where an LSP's supported TSG impacts label allocati=
on/selection?
>=20
> If the answer is yes, then TSG belongs in the traffic parameters.
>=20
> Thanks,
> Lou
>=20
> PS your reference to some text in the info document, rather than keeping =
us guessing, can you point to a section and paragraph number or just copy a=
nd paste the text?
>=20
> On 10/4/2011 9:33 AM, BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO) wrote:
>> Lou,
>> =20
>> See in line
>> =20
>> Pietro and Sergio
>> =20
>> ---------------------
>> =20
>> Pietro, Sergio,
>> =20
>> It looks like we may be converging.  We agree that encoding isn't=20
>> optimal, and you only have a slight preference for G-PID.  For me the=20
>> tipping point is on intermediate node use of TSG*.  At this point you=20
>> have said that this is never needed.  It's my understanding that this=20
>> isn't correct, and there are cases where it is needed.  Consider the=20
>> case where there is a 1.25G TSG LSP (e.g., ODU0 or ODUflex) that is=20
>> being signaled across a topology composed of ODU2 H-LSPs, some of=20
>> which can support 1.25G TSG and others that only support 2.5G TSG.
>> Don't the intermediate nodes need to understand the TSG of the LSP in=20
>> order to select the proper outgoing H-LSPs?
>> =20
>> [[ALU]] No. The point is that the intermediate nodes have only to=20
>> consider the LSP signal type (ODU1, ODU2 etc..), and not the TSG that=20
>> the LSP exports to its clients at the endpoints. So it happens that an=20
>> ODU0 can only be carried on H-LSPs that export 1.25 TSG to their=20
>> clients (by G.709 definition). An ODU2 instead can be carried on=20
>> H-LSPs that export either 1.25 or 2.5. Where you have to consider both=20
>> the LSP type and the TSG exported to LSP clients is the penultimate=20
>> node. On that node the interface choice has to be made in such a way=20
>> that the endpoint
>> can:
>> =20
>> 1) support the signal type indicated by the LSP
>> 2) structure the LSP with the required adaptation
>> 3) support all the required hierarchies
>> =20
>> =20
>> (*) In a private mail (which the author may resend to the list) the=20
>> point was also made that by using G-PID for TSG we loose the ability=20
>> to identify the client adaptation supported by the LSP, e.g., Ethernet.
>> =20
>> [[ALU]]
>> In OTN an ODUj LSP either carries an ODUj client or a client of=20
>> different technology. When we set up a ODU3 H-LSP that will carry an=20
>> ODUj client, the G-PID of the ODU3 H-LSP simply indicates that the=20
>> client is an ODUj.
>> In OTN when you structure a payload you are not defining which will be=20
>> the signal types of the carried ODU.
>> Once that the ODU3 H-LSP is structured, in order to carry Ethernet you=20
>> should set up a client ODUj that in turn will carry Ethernet. The=20
>> G-PID of this ODUj will contain Ethernet.
>> =20
>> Instead related to this point what we can add is that in case of=20
>> not-ODU clients the TSG is a useless parameter. This would imply to=20
>> have up to three signal types for every ODU , For example you would=20
>> need an ODU2-1.25, an ODU2-2.5 and an ODU2-neutral (e.g for Ethernet cli=
ent).
>> =20
>> =20
>> =20
>> =20
>> Please see below for detailed responses.
>> =20
>> On 10/4/2011 4:31 AM, GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO) wrote:
>>> Hello Lou,
>>>
>>> we think we have understood your motivations and we think that we=20
>>> could narrow the choice to just G-PID and Signal type.
>>>
>> =20
>> It looks like we may be converging.
>> =20
>>> We would not consider encoding because in case of TDM it usually=20
>>> contains the nature of the path  (in this case G.709 ODUk (Digital
>>> Path)=3D12 ) and not the container type and attributes.
>>>
>> =20
>> Well I don't mind us reaching the same conclusion, even if our=20
>> rational isn't the same.
>> =20
>>> We have yet a slight preference for G-PID that is motivated by the=20
>>> fact the G.709, in case of structuring, explicitly foresees two=20
>>> different payloads named ODTUjk (for G.709v2) and ODTUk.ts (for=20
>>> G.709v3). The current GPID value defined in RFC 4328 is currently=20
>>> associated to the ODTUjk only.
>> =20
>> Huh?  RFC4328 says:
>> =20
>>    The G-PID (16 bits field), as defined in [RFC3471], identifies the
>>    payload carried by an LSP, i.e., an identifier of the client layer of
>>    that LSP.  This identifier is used by the endpoints of the G.709 LSP.
>> =20
>>    The G-PID can take one of the following values when the client
>>    payload is transported over the Digital Path layer, in addition to
>>    the payload identifiers defined in [RFC3471]:
>> =20
>> Clearly the rfc envisions use of multiple G-PIDs based on the use of=20
>> the
>> G.709 LSP.
>> =20
>> [ALU] The only value related to ODUjk is 47. The other (linked to
>> G.709
>> v3) can not be present .since G.709v3 was not present at that time.
>> =20
>>> The extension of G-PID would be one to one consistent with G.709.
>> =20
>> This is where our perspective diverges.
>> =20
>> [ALU] Why?
>> =20
>>>
>>> We have also to notice that we are using the same signal type value=20
>>> both in routing and in signaling. Surely we would avoid a duplication=20
>>> of data in the ISCD just to differentiate the TSGs. (for example
>>> ODU2-2.5 and ODU2-1.25). This could happen on interfaces that have=20
>>> auto-payload type on.
>> =20
>> I addressed this point in my original mail:
>>>> Hereto, the 1.25 types would imply support for both 1.25 and 2.5=20
>>>> types in routing.
>> =20
>> Also note that the routing draft currently says:
>>    A single ISCD MAY be used for the advertisement of unbundled or
>>    bundled links supporting homogeneous multiplexing hierarchies and the
>>    same Tributary Slot Granularity (TSG).  A different ISCD MUST be used
>>    for each different muxing hierarchy (muxing tree in the following
>>    examples) and different TSG supported within the TE Link, if it
>>    includes component links with differing characteristics.
>> =20
>> =20
>> [ALU] We addressed the point also in a previous mail in which you seem=20
>> to converge in the opportunity to have at least two different signal=20
>> types values.
>> 1.25 does not imply the support also for both 1.25/2.5 as reported in=20
>> this snip of a previous mail.
>> Snip>
>>> To
>>> complicate things, it is not always true that an interface supporting
>>> 1.25 tributary slots can also support 2.5 tributary slots, because=20
>>> this specific functionality (known as fallback support setting=20
>>> auto-payload flag to ON) can be either not present in HW or disabled=20
>>> by NMS.
>>>
>> =20
>> Well this is something I didn't have in my original mail.  It was my=20
>> understanding from previous discussions, that fallback support was a=20
>> required in G.709-v3.  If it is optional (either in implementation or=20
>> in
>> operation) we need to ensure that both cases (1.25 + 2.5 support, or=20
>> just 1.25 support) are fully covered.
>> =20
>> =20
>> =20
>>>
>>> On the other hand the usage of signal type could avoid the need to=20
>>> perform consistency checks between G-PID value and signal type value.
>>> (e.g ODU4 with 2.5 TSG)
>>>
>>> About G-PID we have one question. The definition you wrote in RFC3471=20
>>> for G-PID is : "An identifier of the payload carried by an LSP, i.e.,=20
>>> an identifier of the client layer of that LSP.  This is used by the=20
>>> nodes at the endpoints of the LSP, and in some cases by the=20
>>> penultimate hop."
>>>
>>> This definition standing, could you elaborate how can be derived from=20
>>> what described that G-PID is "an end-point only field " ? Did we miss=20
>>> something in the definition ?
>> =20
>> Wouldn't you agree that client layer adaptation is only within the=20
>> scope of the endpoints?  The sole exception that I can think of is PHP.
>> Perhaps I'm missing something.
>> =20
>> [ALU] We have in mind a different case: supposing to have an ODU2 LSP=20
>> carrying an Ethernet client and suppose you have an OTU2 interface=20
>> able to terminate ODU2 and extract Ethernet. At penultimate this=20
>> interface may be selected for the ODU2 LSP and selection criteria is=20
>> the G-PID value indicating Ethernet payload and not for example FiberCha=
nne/ATM.
>> =20
>>>
>>> Anyway, apart the slight preference motivated above we do not have a=20
>>> strong position on this issue. As co-authors of the draft we would=20
>>> like to collect WG opinion included at first our co-authors' opinion=20
>>> and report the WG decision in the drafts.
>> =20
>> Sure.  Per IETF process, a WG document represents WG consensus.
>> =20
>>>
>>> Last but not least, we would like to remind that info draft reports=20
>>> the need for a optional dedicated object containing the hierarchies=20
>>> that should be supported by the endpoints. Independently from the=20
>>> solution for TSG, this object is anyway required.
>>>
>> =20
>> I'm not sure which text you are referring to, but if you think it's=20
>> covered in the routing draft, then we're in sync.
>> =20
>> [ALU] The text is in the G.709-info draft , and is related to a=20
>> dedicated optional object to insert in signalling , not in routing,=20
>> where the supported hierarchies are already present.
>> =20
>> Much thanks,
>> Lou
>> =20
>> =20
>> =20
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
_______________________________________________
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From pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com  Tue Oct 11 00:40:42 2011
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Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
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Hello John,

[SNIP]
I have been having trouble with this for some time.  Why is the penultimate=
 interface any different?  Using your example of an ODU1, it seems to me th=
at any node on the path of that ODU1 that switches the ODU1 would need to u=
nderstand its TSG.  In your ATM example above, the E2E ATM LSP can transit =
multiple VC4 LSPs and the nodes at either end of each would need to be able=
 to switch ATM.

[ALU] We just wanted to say that the TSG is a payload for the ODU
exactly as ATM is a payload for VC4. Different TSGs are associated to 2  di=
fferent payloads: ODTUk.ts and ODTUjk.
As ATM as payload of VC4 is signaled using GPID, we think that TSG has to b=
e signaled in GPID as payload of an ODU.
We remember that you were fine with this line of reasoning in July.

Maybe we are wrong, but it seems to us that the origin of the misunderstand=
ing is in the confusion between the TSG used to map the ODU 1 over the FA w=
ith the TSG that the ODU 1 exports to its client.

The TSG that is in discussion is the second.

Pietro & Sergio


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To: "GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)" <pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 05:45:33 -0700
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
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Comments inline

> -----Original Message-----
> From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 3:40 AM
> To: John E Drake
> Cc: CCAMP; Lou Berger; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); GRANDI, PIETRO
> VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
>=20
> Hello John,
>=20
> [SNIP]
> I have been having trouble with this for some time.  Why is the
> penultimate interface any different?  Using your example of an ODU1, it
> seems to me that any node on the path of that ODU1 that switches the
> ODU1 would need to understand its TSG.  In your ATM example above, the
> E2E ATM LSP can transit multiple VC4 LSPs and the nodes at either end
> of each would need to be able to switch ATM.
>=20
> [ALU] We just wanted to say that the TSG is a payload for the ODU
> exactly as ATM is a payload for VC4. Different TSGs are associated to 2
> different payloads: ODTUk.ts and ODTUjk.
> As ATM as payload of VC4 is signaled using GPID, we think that TSG has
> to be signaled in GPID as payload of an ODU.
> We remember that you were fine with this line of reasoning in July.
[JD]=20

That's actually where my trouble with this started;  everyone I spoke with =
gave me a different answer 8-<.

In any event, I think I'm comfortable with the ATM/VC4 analogy, so I will c=
ontinue with it.

When we establish each of the VC4s that will carry ATM, the GPID will indic=
ate ATM and the Signal Type will indicate VC4.  When we signal an E2E ATM L=
SP, that will carry packets, on a path containing these VC4s, I think the G=
PID would indicate AAL5 and the signal type will indicate ATM.

By this reasoning, it seems to me that we actually need the TSG in both the=
 GPID and in the Signal Type, and they may be different.  I.e.,  the TSG in=
 the GPID indicates, per your statement below, the TSG that the endpoints o=
f an ODUk link or hierarchical LSP export to their clients, and the TSG in =
the Signal Type indicates, per your statement below, the TSG used to map an=
 E2E ODUj onto the ODUk links or hierarchical LSPs on its path.

When such an E2E ODUj is established, it then has a given TSG.  If it becom=
es a hierarchical LSP, then when its endpoints receive a signaling request,=
 they would check the TSG in the Signaling Type against its TSG to decide w=
hether to grant the signaling request.

>=20
> Maybe we are wrong, but it seems to us that the origin of the
> misunderstanding is in the confusion between the TSG used to map the
> ODU 1 over the FA with the TSG that the ODU 1 exports to its client.
>=20
> The TSG that is in discussion is the second.
>=20
> Pietro & Sergio
>=20
>=20
> > _______________________________________________
> > CCAMP mailing list
> > CCAMP@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

From lberger@labn.net  Tue Oct 11 06:12:08 2011
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
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Pietro/Sergio/Daniele,
	I think I'm beginning to understand your point/perspective.  I think we
have a different model on how to ensure that the right adaptation
capability is provided end-to-end on a G.709 LSP.  As I understand it,
your model uses special penultimate hop processing to ensure that the
final link/H-LSP has the adaptation capability *on output* to match the
adaptation capability of the ingress.  (And the traffic parameters alone
to ensure the proper TS allocation on other transit nodes.) Is this correct?

The model I was considering ensured that the adaptation check was made
at every transit hop and, consequently, there was no special penultimate
hop case.  While this model works, I agree it is overly restrictive.

In ether model, and as you on page 9, section 4.1, G-PID isn't
sufficient to represent the support for multiple adaptations / PTs that
G.709 allows at a single endpoint.

I'm not sure what the "right/best" answer is to address this, but I want
to think a little bit on this before advocating for a particular solution.

If you agree with my first paragraph, I think we have agreement/common
understanding on the requirement in this discussion.  Also, clearly the
topic of adaptation and payload types needs to be expanded in the info
document.

Thanks,
Lou


On 10/10/2011 10:54 AM, GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO) wrote:
> Hello Lou,
> 
> Please see in line.
> 
> Pietro and Sergio
> 
> 
>> Let's consider the slightly more complicated case:
>> In this case an ODU0 LSP is being switched at a transit node
>> interconnected via the FAs/H-LSPs described above.
>>
>>  ---- A ---- B ---- C ----(D -XC- D)---- F ---- G -----H ----
>> Links/switching
>>  ODU0-|                    |-ODU0-|                    |-ODU0
>>       |-ODU2-|      |-ODU2-|      |-ODU2-|      |-ODU2-|
>>              |-ODU3-|                    |-ODU3-|
>> LSPs
>>  |------------------------ ODU0 LSP -------------------------|
>>       |---- ODU2 H-LSP ----|      |---- ODU2 H-LSP ----|
>>  ODU3 H-LSPs |------|                    |------|  (could be a link)
> 
>> So I think the key question to answer are:
> 
>> 1) What information is used to allocate the label used on the ODU0 LSP
>> for the A <-> D hop (provided by the left ODU2 H-LSP)?
> 
> [[ALU]] The information used for the ODU 0 label is:
> 
> - The FA is an ODU2 FA and declares to support the ODU0.
> ( before setting the ODU0 LSP the FA has been set in such a way to export 1.25 TSG to the ODU0 client, otherwise the ODU0 would not have been declared). 
> 
> Please note that the usage of ODU0 is slightly misleading (even if more easy to explain) because the ODU 0 has only one choice for the TSG: 1.25.
> 
> A more suitable example would be an ODU1 in place of ODU0. 
> In this specific case the label would be dependent from the TSG exported by the ODU2 FA LSP to its client. 
> 
>> 2) What information is used on D to provision its ODU0 cross-connect
>> (switch) and select the proper out-going interface (H-LSP)?
> 
> [[ALU]] The cross connection is provisioned knowing the incoming and outgoing interfaces. It is the ODU0 signal that is cross connected and not the tributary slots, that have only link local meaning.
> 
> Selection of the outgoing interface: Any interface/FA connected to node H
> and supporting ODU0 is selectable. Which interface is decided with a local policy. (note this is valid for each ODU LSP independently from its type)  
> 
>> 3) What information is used to allocate the label used on the ODU0 LSP
>> for the D <-> H hop (provided by the right ODU2 H-LSP)?
> 
> [[ALU]] the same as point 1
> 
>> 4) Do any the answers change if A and H are themselves intermediate
>> nodes on the ODU0 LSP?
> 
> [[ALU]] Nothing changes. The problem is not the ODU0 LSP that cannot be structured.
> 
> 
>> It seems to me that TSG is part of the information needed at the ODU0
>> transit nodes for proper resource allocation, output link (H-LSP)
>> selection, and label allocation.  Am I missing something?
> 
> [[ALU]] Yes. Let us try to make an analogy with SDH and ATM.
> 
> If you have to transport ATM over a SDH VC4 what happens is that
> a VC4 LSP is set up, and the LSP declares GPID = ATM.
> 
> The structure at 1.25/2.5 in OTH has the same role of ATM in the example above. The structures at 1.25 and 2.5 for the data plane are two
> different payloads that in G.709 are characterized by two different Payload types (PT): PT20 for 2.5 and PT 21 for 1.25.
> 
> The payload has to be considered only when selecting the last interface/FA. 
> The last interface/FA must be selected in such a way to be
> able to support the signal type of the LSP being set up and, in addition, to grant that the LSP termination supports a 2.5/1.25 payload structure depending from the client payload requested by signaling. (Note that it is the same if the payload is Ethernet or something else instead of 2.5/1.25 payload structure).
> In your example this is expected to be applied when setting up the ODU2 FA LSPs.
> 
> Hope this clarifies.  
> 
> Much thanks,
> Lou
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

From lberger@labn.net  Tue Oct 11 06:18:47 2011
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
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Rajan,
	In short, that particular point was/is that signaling must somehow
represent the capabilities of the LSP.  Without such information the
egress won't be able to ensure it can provided the expected
(hardware/resource/adaptation) capabilities or advertise the proper
information into routing.

Lou

On 10/10/2011 1:08 PM, Rajan Rao wrote:
> Lou,
> 
> When you say H-LSP, I think you are referring to the fact that it is not advertised as a Te-Link (i.e. FA) right?  If so, we will need the TSG information as you have mentioned. Especially if you are creating nested H-LSP to carry ODU0 service.
> 
> I think you are referring to case-3 below.  
> 
> Case 1) ODU2 H-LSPs are pre-created:
>  
> The assumption is that BW is advertised for A-D & D-H  H-LSPs. So, ODU0 advertisement exists for this link. No need for additional TSG info.
> 
> Case 2) ODU2 H-LSPs are induced: 
>   
> The assumption is that BW is advertised for A-D & D-H  H-LSPs. So, ODU0 advertisement exists for this link. No need for additional TSG info.
>  
> Case 3) ODU2 H-LSPs are induced or pre-created but BW not advertised.
> We will need TSG info here. 
> 
> Thanks
> Rajan
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger
> Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 6:41 AM
> To: Daniele Ceccarelli
> Cc: CCAMP
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
> 
> 
> 
> On 10/10/2011 9:06 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
>> Hi Lou,
>>
>> Let's try with an example showing that in a muxing hierarchy not
>> every layer must use the same TSG. 
> 
> Sure, while helpful, I believe this is understood by all and not the
> issue I'm trying to get at.
> 
>> Please consider the following
>> path.
>>
>>                      IF1     IF2
>> A ------ B -------- C ----------D
>> |--ODU2--|          |---ODU2----|
>>          |---ODU3---|
>>
>>
>> Suppose an ODU2 from A to D is set up in order to carry an ODU0, so D
>> needs to be able to perform ODU0->ODU2 demuxing. The ODU2 is carried
>> over an ODU3 FA from B to C. B is not able to support ODU2 and can
>> only carry it through an ODU3@2,5Gbps TSG. It does not care about the
>> fact that the ODU2 is carrying and ODU0 and a 1,25 TSG is needed to
>> extract it, since the extraction is performed by D.
>>
>> D advertises both hierarchy information and TSG capability on IF2:
>> muxing hierarchy ODU0->ODU2 and TSG field = 01 (i.e. Both 1,25 and
>> 2,5 supported).
>>
>> The ODU0 is terminated only on D, so B can forward the ODU2 over the
>> ODU3 FA using a TSG = 2,5 Gbps *but* if multiple interfaces are
>> present from C to D, C must choose an OTU2 inferface supporting an
>> 1,25 TSG adaptation towards the client.
>>
>> In conclusion, when setting up an ODU2 LSP, that has to be able to
>> extract an ODU0 in the termination node, TSG information carried in
>> the ODU2 LSP signaling (so referred to ODU0 carried over it) has NO
>> impact on the label allocation for the ODU2 LSP (in fact label
>> allocation for link BC is @2,5 Gbps). Label allocation for the ODU2
>> LSP is impacted by the TSG capability offered by the underlying ODU3
>> link/FA.
>>
>> So the answer to you question is: The LSP's supported TSG does not
>> impact the label allocation/selection. The label
>> allocaction/selection is only impacted by the server link/FA TSG.
>>
>> As a further clarification, the reason why in our opinion the TSG is
>> not relevant to the traffic parameters is that the type of LSP being
>> set up does not influence the TSG of the server layer (which has
>> already been fixed) but only the choice of the right server.
> 
> Let's consider the slightly more complicated case:
> In this case an ODU0 LSP is being switched at a transit node
> interconnected via the FAs/H-LSPs described above.
> 
>  ---- A ---- B ---- C ----(D -XC- D)---- F ---- G -----H ----
> Links/switching
>  ODU0-|                    |-ODU0-|                    |-ODU0
>       |-ODU2-|      |-ODU2-|      |-ODU2-|      |-ODU2-|
>              |-ODU3-|                    |-ODU3-|
> LSPs
>  |------------------------ ODU0 LSP -------------------------|
>       |---- ODU2 H-LSP ----|      |---- ODU2 H-LSP ----|
>  ODU3 H-LSPs |------|                    |------|  (could be a link)
> 
> So I think the key question to answer are:
> 
> 1) What information is used to allocate the label used on the ODU0 LSP
> for the A <-> D hop (provided by the left ODU2 H-LSP)?
> 
> 2) What information is used on D to provision its ODU0 cross-connect
> (switch) and select the proper out-going interface (H-LSP)?
> 
> 3) What information is used to allocate the label used on the ODU0 LSP
> for the D <-> H hop (provided by the right ODU2 H-LSP)?
> 
> 4) Do any the answers change if A and H are themselves intermediate
> nodes on the ODU0 LSP?
> 
> It seems to me that TSG is part of the information needed at the ODU0
> transit nodes for proper resource allocation, output link (H-LSP)
> selection, and label allocation.  Am I missing something?
> 
> Much thanks,
> Lou
> 
>>
>> Thanks
>> Daniele, Sergio, Pietro
>>
>> PS. The piece of text in the info model referring to the optional object is in page 9, section 4.1:
>> "The G-PID information is not enough to have a complete choice since
>>  the penultimate hop node has to distinguish between interfaces with
>>  the same TSG (e.g. 1.25Gbps) whether the interface is able to support
>>  the right hierarchy, i.e. it is possible to have two interfaces both
>>  at 1.25 TSG but only one is supporting ODU0.
>>
>>  A dedicated optional object should to be defined in order to carry
>>  the multiplexing hierarchy and have a more precise choice capability.
>>  In this way, when the penultimate node receives the GENERALIZED LABEL
>>  REQUEST Object, the G-PID value together with the ODU bandwdith
>>  included into the Traffic Parameters Object allow desuming the
>>  correct TSG value."
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger
>> Sent: mercoled 5 ottobre 2011 19.16
>> To: BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
>> Cc: CCAMP
>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
>>
>> Guys,
>> 	I think we're going in circles.  Let me try a different question that hopefully can help us resolve this.
>>
>> Are there *any* cases where an LSP's supported TSG impacts label allocation/selection?
>>
>> If the answer is yes, then TSG belongs in the traffic parameters.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Lou
>>
>> PS your reference to some text in the info document, rather than keeping us guessing, can you point to a section and paragraph number or just copy and paste the text?
>>
>> On 10/4/2011 9:33 AM, BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO) wrote:
>>> Lou,
>>>  
>>> See in line
>>>  
>>> Pietro and Sergio
>>>  
>>> ---------------------
>>>  
>>> Pietro, Sergio,
>>>  
>>> It looks like we may be converging.  We agree that encoding isn't 
>>> optimal, and you only have a slight preference for G-PID.  For me the 
>>> tipping point is on intermediate node use of TSG*.  At this point you 
>>> have said that this is never needed.  It's my understanding that this 
>>> isn't correct, and there are cases where it is needed.  Consider the 
>>> case where there is a 1.25G TSG LSP (e.g., ODU0 or ODUflex) that is 
>>> being signaled across a topology composed of ODU2 H-LSPs, some of 
>>> which can support 1.25G TSG and others that only support 2.5G TSG.
>>> Don't the intermediate nodes need to understand the TSG of the LSP in 
>>> order to select the proper outgoing H-LSPs?
>>>  
>>> [[ALU]] No. The point is that the intermediate nodes have only to 
>>> consider the LSP signal type (ODU1, ODU2 etc..), and not the TSG that 
>>> the LSP exports to its clients at the endpoints. So it happens that an 
>>> ODU0 can only be carried on H-LSPs that export 1.25 TSG to their 
>>> clients (by G.709 definition). An ODU2 instead can be carried on 
>>> H-LSPs that export either 1.25 or 2.5. Where you have to consider both 
>>> the LSP type and the TSG exported to LSP clients is the penultimate 
>>> node. On that node the interface choice has to be made in such a way 
>>> that the endpoint
>>> can:
>>>  
>>> 1) support the signal type indicated by the LSP
>>> 2) structure the LSP with the required adaptation
>>> 3) support all the required hierarchies
>>>  
>>>  
>>> (*) In a private mail (which the author may resend to the list) the 
>>> point was also made that by using G-PID for TSG we loose the ability 
>>> to identify the client adaptation supported by the LSP, e.g., Ethernet.
>>>  
>>> [[ALU]]
>>> In OTN an ODUj LSP either carries an ODUj client or a client of 
>>> different technology. When we set up a ODU3 H-LSP that will carry an 
>>> ODUj client, the G-PID of the ODU3 H-LSP simply indicates that the 
>>> client is an ODUj.
>>> In OTN when you structure a payload you are not defining which will be 
>>> the signal types of the carried ODU.
>>> Once that the ODU3 H-LSP is structured, in order to carry Ethernet you 
>>> should set up a client ODUj that in turn will carry Ethernet. The 
>>> G-PID of this ODUj will contain Ethernet.
>>>  
>>> Instead related to this point what we can add is that in case of 
>>> not-ODU clients the TSG is a useless parameter. This would imply to 
>>> have up to three signal types for every ODU , For example you would 
>>> need an ODU2-1.25, an ODU2-2.5 and an ODU2-neutral (e.g for Ethernet client).
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>> Please see below for detailed responses.
>>>  
>>> On 10/4/2011 4:31 AM, GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO) wrote:
>>>> Hello Lou,
>>>>
>>>> we think we have understood your motivations and we think that we 
>>>> could narrow the choice to just G-PID and Signal type.
>>>>
>>>  
>>> It looks like we may be converging.
>>>  
>>>> We would not consider encoding because in case of TDM it usually 
>>>> contains the nature of the path  (in this case G.709 ODUk (Digital
>>>> Path)=12 ) and not the container type and attributes.
>>>>
>>>  
>>> Well I don't mind us reaching the same conclusion, even if our 
>>> rational isn't the same.
>>>  
>>>> We have yet a slight preference for G-PID that is motivated by the 
>>>> fact the G.709, in case of structuring, explicitly foresees two 
>>>> different payloads named ODTUjk (for G.709v2) and ODTUk.ts (for 
>>>> G.709v3). The current GPID value defined in RFC 4328 is currently 
>>>> associated to the ODTUjk only.
>>>  
>>> Huh?  RFC4328 says:
>>>  
>>>    The G-PID (16 bits field), as defined in [RFC3471], identifies the
>>>    payload carried by an LSP, i.e., an identifier of the client layer of
>>>    that LSP.  This identifier is used by the endpoints of the G.709 LSP.
>>>  
>>>    The G-PID can take one of the following values when the client
>>>    payload is transported over the Digital Path layer, in addition to
>>>    the payload identifiers defined in [RFC3471]:
>>>  
>>> Clearly the rfc envisions use of multiple G-PIDs based on the use of 
>>> the
>>> G.709 LSP.
>>>  
>>> [ALU] The only value related to ODUjk is 47. The other (linked to
>>> G.709
>>> v3) can not be present .since G.709v3 was not present at that time.
>>>  
>>>> The extension of G-PID would be one to one consistent with G.709.
>>>  
>>> This is where our perspective diverges.
>>>  
>>> [ALU] Why?
>>>  
>>>>
>>>> We have also to notice that we are using the same signal type value 
>>>> both in routing and in signaling. Surely we would avoid a duplication 
>>>> of data in the ISCD just to differentiate the TSGs. (for example
>>>> ODU2-2.5 and ODU2-1.25). This could happen on interfaces that have 
>>>> auto-payload type on.
>>>  
>>> I addressed this point in my original mail:
>>>>> Hereto, the 1.25 types would imply support for both 1.25 and 2.5 
>>>>> types in routing.
>>>  
>>> Also note that the routing draft currently says:
>>>    A single ISCD MAY be used for the advertisement of unbundled or
>>>    bundled links supporting homogeneous multiplexing hierarchies and the
>>>    same Tributary Slot Granularity (TSG).  A different ISCD MUST be used
>>>    for each different muxing hierarchy (muxing tree in the following
>>>    examples) and different TSG supported within the TE Link, if it
>>>    includes component links with differing characteristics.
>>>  
>>>  
>>> [ALU] We addressed the point also in a previous mail in which you seem 
>>> to converge in the opportunity to have at least two different signal 
>>> types values.
>>> 1.25 does not imply the support also for both 1.25/2.5 as reported in 
>>> this snip of a previous mail.
>>> Snip>
>>>> To
>>>> complicate things, it is not always true that an interface supporting
>>>> 1.25 tributary slots can also support 2.5 tributary slots, because 
>>>> this specific functionality (known as fallback support setting 
>>>> auto-payload flag to ON) can be either not present in HW or disabled 
>>>> by NMS.
>>>>
>>>  
>>> Well this is something I didn't have in my original mail.  It was my 
>>> understanding from previous discussions, that fallback support was a 
>>> required in G.709-v3.  If it is optional (either in implementation or 
>>> in
>>> operation) we need to ensure that both cases (1.25 + 2.5 support, or 
>>> just 1.25 support) are fully covered.
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>>
>>>> On the other hand the usage of signal type could avoid the need to 
>>>> perform consistency checks between G-PID value and signal type value.
>>>> (e.g ODU4 with 2.5 TSG)
>>>>
>>>> About G-PID we have one question. The definition you wrote in RFC3471 
>>>> for G-PID is : "An identifier of the payload carried by an LSP, i.e., 
>>>> an identifier of the client layer of that LSP.  This is used by the 
>>>> nodes at the endpoints of the LSP, and in some cases by the 
>>>> penultimate hop."
>>>>
>>>> This definition standing, could you elaborate how can be derived from 
>>>> what described that G-PID is "an end-point only field " ? Did we miss 
>>>> something in the definition ?
>>>  
>>> Wouldn't you agree that client layer adaptation is only within the 
>>> scope of the endpoints?  The sole exception that I can think of is PHP.
>>> Perhaps I'm missing something.
>>>  
>>> [ALU] We have in mind a different case: supposing to have an ODU2 LSP 
>>> carrying an Ethernet client and suppose you have an OTU2 interface 
>>> able to terminate ODU2 and extract Ethernet. At penultimate this 
>>> interface may be selected for the ODU2 LSP and selection criteria is 
>>> the G-PID value indicating Ethernet payload and not for example FiberChanne/ATM.
>>>  
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, apart the slight preference motivated above we do not have a 
>>>> strong position on this issue. As co-authors of the draft we would 
>>>> like to collect WG opinion included at first our co-authors' opinion 
>>>> and report the WG decision in the drafts.
>>>  
>>> Sure.  Per IETF process, a WG document represents WG consensus.
>>>  
>>>>
>>>> Last but not least, we would like to remind that info draft reports 
>>>> the need for a optional dedicated object containing the hierarchies 
>>>> that should be supported by the endpoints. Independently from the 
>>>> solution for TSG, this object is anyway required.
>>>>
>>>  
>>> I'm not sure which text you are referring to, but if you think it's 
>>> covered in the routing draft, then we're in sync.
>>>  
>>> [ALU] The text is in the G.709-info draft , and is related to a 
>>> dedicated optional object to insert in signalling , not in routing, 
>>> where the supported hierarchies are already present.
>>>  
>>> Much thanks,
>>> Lou
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> 
> 
> 
> 

From sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com  Wed Oct 12 01:36:36 2011
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Subject: [CCAMP] R:  Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
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Lou,

We are pleased to see we are converging.
Please see in line for detail.

Thanks

Sergio, Daniele, Pietro




-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]=20
Inviato: marted=EC 11 ottobre 2011 15.12
A: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Dan=
iele Ceccarelli
Cc: CCAMP
Oggetto: Re: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG

Pietro/Sergio/Daniele,
	I think I'm beginning to understand your point/perspective.  I think we
have a different model on how to ensure that the right adaptation
capability is provided end-to-end on a G.709 LSP.  As I understand it,
your model uses special penultimate hop processing to ensure that the
final link/H-LSP has the adaptation capability *on output* to match the
adaptation capability of the ingress.  (And the traffic parameters alone
to ensure the proper TS allocation on other transit nodes.) Is this correct=
?

[SDP] Yes, your understanding is correct.

The model I was considering ensured that the adaptation check was made
at every transit hop and, consequently, there was no special penultimate
hop case.  While this model works, I agree it is overly restrictive.

In ether model, and as you on page 9, section 4.1, G-PID isn't
sufficient to represent the support for multiple adaptations / PTs that
G.709 allows at a single endpoint.

[SDP] In fact, G-PID would permit the selection of the right interface but =
would not assure the support of correct clients at the end points. This is =
why we proposed the optional object reporting the supported client hierarch=
y.

I'm not sure what the "right/best" answer is to address this, but I want
to think a little bit on this before advocating for a particular solution.

[SDP] We agree with you, take you time. The most important point is to have=
 agreement on the model.

If you agree with my first paragraph, I think we have agreement/common
understanding on the requirement in this discussion.

[SDP] Yes , we have agreement on the requirement.

  Also, clearly the
topic of adaptation and payload types needs to be expanded in the info
document.

[SDP] We will try to enhance the explanation already contained in the Info =
draft to clarify the concept. We will send to you in advance a draft text t=
o check whether there is a good level of clearness.

Thanks,
Lou


On 10/10/2011 10:54 AM, GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO) wrote:
> Hello Lou,
>=20
> Please see in line.
>=20
> Pietro and Sergio
>=20
>=20
>> Let's consider the slightly more complicated case:
>> In this case an ODU0 LSP is being switched at a transit node
>> interconnected via the FAs/H-LSPs described above.
>>
>>  ---- A ---- B ---- C ----(D -XC- D)---- F ---- G -----H ----
>> Links/switching
>>  ODU0-|                    |-ODU0-|                    |-ODU0
>>       |-ODU2-|      |-ODU2-|      |-ODU2-|      |-ODU2-|
>>              |-ODU3-|                    |-ODU3-|
>> LSPs
>>  |------------------------ ODU0 LSP -------------------------|
>>       |---- ODU2 H-LSP ----|      |---- ODU2 H-LSP ----|
>>  ODU3 H-LSPs |------|                    |------|  (could be a link)
>=20
>> So I think the key question to answer are:
>=20
>> 1) What information is used to allocate the label used on the ODU0 LSP
>> for the A <-> D hop (provided by the left ODU2 H-LSP)?
>=20
> [[ALU]] The information used for the ODU 0 label is:
>=20
> - The FA is an ODU2 FA and declares to support the ODU0.
> ( before setting the ODU0 LSP the FA has been set in such a way to export=
 1.25 TSG to the ODU0 client, otherwise the ODU0 would not have been declar=
ed).=20
>=20
> Please note that the usage of ODU0 is slightly misleading (even if more e=
asy to explain) because the ODU 0 has only one choice for the TSG: 1.25.
>=20
> A more suitable example would be an ODU1 in place of ODU0.=20
> In this specific case the label would be dependent from the TSG exported =
by the ODU2 FA LSP to its client.=20
>=20
>> 2) What information is used on D to provision its ODU0 cross-connect
>> (switch) and select the proper out-going interface (H-LSP)?
>=20
> [[ALU]] The cross connection is provisioned knowing the incoming and outg=
oing interfaces. It is the ODU0 signal that is cross connected and not the =
tributary slots, that have only link local meaning.
>=20
> Selection of the outgoing interface: Any interface/FA connected to node H
> and supporting ODU0 is selectable. Which interface is decided with a loca=
l policy. (note this is valid for each ODU LSP independently from its type)=
 =20
>=20
>> 3) What information is used to allocate the label used on the ODU0 LSP
>> for the D <-> H hop (provided by the right ODU2 H-LSP)?
>=20
> [[ALU]] the same as point 1
>=20
>> 4) Do any the answers change if A and H are themselves intermediate
>> nodes on the ODU0 LSP?
>=20
> [[ALU]] Nothing changes. The problem is not the ODU0 LSP that cannot be s=
tructured.
>=20
>=20
>> It seems to me that TSG is part of the information needed at the ODU0
>> transit nodes for proper resource allocation, output link (H-LSP)
>> selection, and label allocation.  Am I missing something?
>=20
> [[ALU]] Yes. Let us try to make an analogy with SDH and ATM.
>=20
> If you have to transport ATM over a SDH VC4 what happens is that
> a VC4 LSP is set up, and the LSP declares GPID =3D ATM.
>=20
> The structure at 1.25/2.5 in OTH has the same role of ATM in the example =
above. The structures at 1.25 and 2.5 for the data plane are two
> different payloads that in G.709 are characterized by two different Paylo=
ad types (PT): PT20 for 2.5 and PT 21 for 1.25.
>=20
> The payload has to be considered only when selecting the last interface/F=
A.=20
> The last interface/FA must be selected in such a way to be
> able to support the signal type of the LSP being set up and, in addition,=
 to grant that the LSP termination supports a 2.5/1.25 payload structure de=
pending from the client payload requested by signaling. (Note that it is th=
e same if the payload is Ethernet or something else instead of 2.5/1.25 pay=
load structure).
> In your example this is expected to be applied when setting up the ODU2 F=
A LSPs.
>=20
> Hope this clarifies. =20
>=20
> Much thanks,
> Lou
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20

From sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com  Wed Oct 12 02:21:00 2011
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From: "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)" <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 11:20:40 +0200
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
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Subject: [CCAMP] R:  Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
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John,

Please see inline

Thanks

Sergio, Daniele, Pietro



-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]=20
Inviato: marted=EC 11 ottobre 2011 14.46
A: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
Cc: CCAMP; Lou Berger; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)
Oggetto: RE: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG

Comments inline

> -----Original Message-----
> From: GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> [mailto:pietro_vittorio.grandi@alcatel-lucent.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 3:40 AM
> To: John E Drake
> Cc: CCAMP; Lou Berger; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); GRANDI, PIETRO
> VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO)
> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
>=20
> Hello John,
>=20
> [SNIP]
> I have been having trouble with this for some time.  Why is the
> penultimate interface any different?  Using your example of an ODU1, it
> seems to me that any node on the path of that ODU1 that switches the
> ODU1 would need to understand its TSG.  In your ATM example above, the
> E2E ATM LSP can transit multiple VC4 LSPs and the nodes at either end
> of each would need to be able to switch ATM.
>=20
> [ALU] We just wanted to say that the TSG is a payload for the ODU
> exactly as ATM is a payload for VC4. Different TSGs are associated to 2
> different payloads: ODTUk.ts and ODTUjk.
> As ATM as payload of VC4 is signaled using GPID, we think that TSG has
> to be signaled in GPID as payload of an ODU.
> We remember that you were fine with this line of reasoning in July.
[JD]=20

That's actually where my trouble with this started;  everyone I spoke with =
gave me a different answer 8-<.

[SDP] This is strange since we have just reported as OTN works.=20

In any event, I think I'm comfortable with the ATM/VC4 analogy, so I will c=
ontinue with it.

When we establish each of the VC4s that will carry ATM, the GPID will indic=
ate ATM and the Signal Type will indicate VC4.  When we signal an E2E ATM L=
SP, that will carry packets, on a path containing these VC4s, I think the G=
PID would indicate AAL5 and the signal type will indicate ATM.

By this reasoning, it seems to me that we actually need the TSG in both the=
 GPID and in the Signal Type, and they may be different.  I.e.,  the TSG in=
 the GPID indicates, per your statement below, the TSG that the endpoints o=
f an ODUk link or hierarchical LSP export to their clients, and the TSG in =
the Signal Type indicates, per your statement below, the TSG used to map an=
 E2E ODUj onto the ODUk links or hierarchical LSPs on its path.

[SDP] John, it seems as though , Lou has found the right description of the=
 requirement in the mail of October 10th (15.12 CEST time). Anyway the TSG =
used to map an E2E ODUj onto a server LSP or links , it is not a matter of =
the ODUj LSP. You need to setup an ODUj with a certain rate, the fact this =
is carried along a path composed by links/FA structured with TS size of 2.5=
 or 1.25 is completely transparent to ODUj E2E. The only thing that ODUj E2=
E has to guarantee is the match between adaptation "on output" towards clie=
nts at the end points. But this is related to the TSG we have suggested to =
be contained in G-PID. Moreover the information of TS mapping on the server=
 , can be obtained, by Signal Type in the Traffic Parameters, ODUk/FA inter=
face from IF_ID RSVP_HOP object, and the field "length" in the label , indi=
cating the number of TS used by client in the server . No need for further =
indication.=20

When such an E2E ODUj is established, it then has a given TSG.  If it becom=
es a hierarchical LSP, then when its endpoints receive a signaling request,=
 they would check the TSG in the Signaling Type against its TSG to decide w=
hether to grant the signaling request.

[SDP]The answer is contained in the concept explained above. Anyway , we tr=
ied to have a common understanding on the model and needed information, bef=
ore jumping in the solution (signaling object impacted).

>=20
> Maybe we are wrong, but it seems to us that the origin of the
> misunderstanding is in the confusion between the TSG used to map the
> ODU 1 over the FA with the TSG that the ODU 1 exports to its client.
>=20
> The TSG that is in discussion is the second.
>=20
> Pietro & Sergio
>=20
>=20
> > _______________________________________________
> > CCAMP mailing list
> > CCAMP@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

From jdrake@juniper.net  Wed Oct 12 13:25:04 2011
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)" <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 12:59:19 -0700
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
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Snipped, comments inline

>=20
> By this reasoning, it seems to me that we actually need the TSG in both
> the GPID and in the Signal Type, and they may be different.  I.e.,  the
> TSG in the GPID indicates, per your statement below, the TSG that the
> endpoints of an ODUk link or hierarchical LSP export to their clients,
> and the TSG in the Signal Type indicates, per your statement below, the
> TSG used to map an E2E ODUj onto the ODUk links or hierarchical LSPs on
> its path.
>=20
> [SDP] John, it seems as though , Lou has found the right description of
> the requirement in the mail of October 10th (15.12 CEST time). Anyway
> the TSG used to map an E2E ODUj onto a server LSP or links , it is not
> a matter of the ODUj LSP. You need to setup an ODUj with a certain
> rate, the fact this is carried along a path composed by links/FA
> structured with TS size of 2.5 or 1.25 is completely transparent to
> ODUj E2E. The only thing that ODUj E2E has to guarantee is the match
> between adaptation "on output" towards clients at the end points. But
> this is related to the TSG we have suggested to be contained in G-PID.
> Moreover the information of TS mapping on the server , can be obtained,
> by Signal Type in the Traffic Parameters, ODUk/FA interface from IF_ID
> RSVP_HOP object, and the field "length" in the label , indicating the
> number of TS used by client in the server . No need for further
> indication.
>=20
[JD]=20

The above is quite clear and understandable.  However, it seems inconsisten=
t with the text that caused my initial question, viz, if PT is really just =
something that needs to be presented consistently by a hierarchical LSP's e=
ndpoints to its clients, then why is a PT check being made on the links adj=
acent to that hierarchical LSP's endpoints? =20

Btw, don't you think it would be better if we used PT rather than TSG and d=
efined three values, 20, 21, and 20|21?=20

From cyril.margaria@nsn.com  Thu Oct 13 02:11:44 2011
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From: "Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich)" <cyril.margaria@nsn.com>
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Hi,=20

Please see inline

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Leeyoung [mailto:leeyoung@huawei.com]
> Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 12:22 AM
> To: Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich); ccamp@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] FW: I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-
> 12
>=20
> Hi Cyril,
>=20
> Regarding your point #3, the main motivation for bitmap representation
> of label (wavelength) was based on standard/well-defined/global
> contiguous ID. That is, once you know the lowest level of wavelength
> grid in the label/wavelength set, you can derive the rest easily based
> on the "globally" identifiable wavelength grid (per RFC6205 and
> G.694.1/2).
>=20
> Here the RB ID is local and arbitrary and as such I have a little
> hesitation to expand the Action field for bit map representation. If
we
> define RB ID =3D{1,2,3,..N}, then it would be able to extract, for
> instance, the next RB ID after 1 is obviously 2. But we don't know if
> such is the case always. The operator can give any scheme for RB ID
and
> it is strictly a local matter so assuming "monotonous increase" (as
the
> example) may not work.
>=20
> What do you think?
>=20
As you stated, this may not be always the case, but it can happen,
typically
If the node chooses to bundle the resources in resource block, then its
likely
to have monotonous increase, so I think it is worth to generalize the
usage of bit set
to IDs where its possible to define ID(n) =3D base_ID . n =3D (base_ID .
(n-1)) .1 ... etc
The document need to define the "." operation for RFC6205 labels
(already done), RB Id and=20
Possibly interface IDs (for general-encoding). In the context of
general-encoding, new
 label format can simply define this operation and the bitmap set id
list can be used.


> We still have point #2 (32 bits vs 16 bits) open --- I haven't seen
> enough implementers input on this point yet.
>=20
> I concur with you on point #6 (in your response to Pierre), is there
> any issue left on point #6?
>=20
>From my point of view #6 can be closed, but the point from Pierre is
different from #6 (how many sub-TLVS),=20
it is more a point #7 on the content of the sub-TLV, which I support
because of the following points:
  - having 2 bit guarantees that the size is the minimum one
  - its more explicit and makes processing less complex (one less rule)=20

BR
Cyril


> Best Regards,
> Young
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich)
[mailto:cyril.margaria@nsn.com]
> Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 4:08 AM
> To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] FW: I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-
> 12
>=20
> Hi Young,
>=20
> For point 1,4,5,7 its ok.
> I updated the title BTW
>=20
> I clarified some points inline.
>=20
> Best Regards
> Cyril
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ext Leeyoung [mailto:leeyoung@huawei.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2011 11:47 PM
> > To: Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich); ccamp@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: [CCAMP] FW: I-D Action:
draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-12.txt
> >
> > Hi Cyril,
> >
> > Thanks for your review and suggestions. It looks like there are two
> > issues pending: Point #2 and #3.
> > We can close the rest of the points you raised with the action
> > specified in-line. Please let me know otherwise.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Young
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich)
> [mailto:cyril.margaria@nsn.com]
> > Sent: Monday, September 26, 2011 10:59 AM
> > To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: [CCAMP] FW: I-D Action:
draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-12.txt
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> > I have the following comments on
draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-12
> > after it being updated and in light of the WG discussions:
>=20
>=20
> <snip>
>=20
> > 2) section 3.1. Resource Block Set Field:
> > RB Identifier: as stated in section "3. Resources, Blocks, Sets, and
> > the Resource Pool", Resources and Resource Blocks are related to
> > interface cards.
> >
> > GMPLS implementations are using 32-bit unnumbered interface IDs to
> > identify GMPLS links and also the corresponding physical resources.
> > OEO devices and, in the context of this document, resource or
> resource
> > group can also be identified by 32-bit unnumbered interface IDs.
> >
> >  From an implementation point of view, having 16-bit resource block
> IDs
> > have several drawbacks because of the following points:
> >   a) Mapping exists between physical resource and unnumbered
> interface
> > IDs, this mapping is generally known by management system,
> >       introducing a different ID space is not optimal (new mapping
> > needed);
> >   b) Those OEOs might be used as links in a multi-node model, thus
> > being identified by a 32-bit unnumbered interface IDs, introducing
> > another space is also not optimal.
> >
> > Therefore, it would be better if the resource block IDs were 32-bit
> > interface IDs (to be unique within the node, not because they are
> > representing links in this document).
> >
> > YOUNG>> The only motivation why we used 16 bits for RB ID is to
> reduce
> > the space. And I think this is an internal link so it is not the
real
> > interface per se and thus there is no need to keep track of the
state
> > of RB ID like other legitimate interfaces. I don't think there is a
> > substantial implementation issue here whether we use 16 bits or 32
> > bits, but if there is a strong support to use 32 bit ID over 16 bit
> ID,
> > I am fine with this. Lou and Deborah, do you have any suggestion on
> > this issue? Or other implementers?
>=20
> CYRIL>> The most bothering point of having 16 bit is for management
> system
>  that needs to learn a new mapping between control plane resources and
> management plane resource. Having 32 bit ids make this more
transparent
> to  management applications.
>=20
> >
> >
> > 3) section 3.1. Resource Block Set Field Why not define a bit set
> > action, similar to the label set?
> >
> > YOUNG>> Are you referring the Label Set encoding as follows from
> draft-
> > ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-05.txt
> >
> >   0                   1                   2                   3
> >       0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0
1
> >
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
> +
> >      | Action|    Num Labels         |          Length
> |
> >
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
> +
> >      |                          Base Label
> |
> >
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
> +
> >      |     Additional fields as necessary per action
> |
> >
> >
> > The current Resource Block Set Field is encoded as follows:
> >
> >   0                   1                   2                   3
> >        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0
> 1
> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >       |    Action     |E|C| Reserved  |        Length
> |
> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >       |     RB Identifier 1           |        RB Identifier 2
> |
> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >       :                               :
> :
> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >       |     RB Identifier n-1         |        RB Identifier n
> |
> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >
> > YOUNG>> Can you be specific about your suggestion? Are you concerned
> > about label being 32 bit vs RB identifier being 16 bits? --- then
> this
> > is basically related to your point #2.
>=20
> CYRIL>> No, this is independent to the length of the RB identifier
>=20
> > If you have other concerns,
> > please spell them out (e.g., action field (4 bits vs 8 bits), etc..)
> > The Num Labels field is necessary when we are indicating bit maps
> > (Action =3D 4), which Is not needed for Resource Block Set; E bit is
> not
> > necessary when we adopt 32 bit RB ID, but C bit is needed to
indicate
> > the connectivity nature of Resource Pool Accessibility.
> >
> > YOUNG>> Would the following encoding is what you are envisioning? If
> > not, please suggest in detail.
> >
> >   0                   1                   2                   3
> >        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0
> 1
> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >       | Action|C|                     |        Length
> |
> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >       |                         RB Identifier 1
> |
> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >       :                               :
> :
> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >       |                         RB Identifier n
> |
> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>=20
>=20
> My suggestion is to add the following text and format :
> Action :
>   1 - Reserved
>   3 - Reserved
>   4 - Bitmap Set
>=20
> When Action is 4 (bitmap set) the format of the Resource block set is
> the following (with 16 bit ids):
>        0                   1                   2                   3
>        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>       |    Action =3D 4 |E|C| Reserved  |        Length
|
>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>       |     base RB Identifier        |Bit Map(Lowest numerical RB
Id)|
>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>       :                               :
:
>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>       |    Bit Map(Highest numerical RB Id)
|
>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>=20
>    Each bit in the bit map represents a
>    particular RB Id with a value of 1/0 indicating whether the RB id
is
>    in the set or not. Bit position zero represents the lowest RB Id
and
>    corresponds to the base RB identifier, while each succeeding bit
> position
>    represents the next RB identifier in numerical order.
>=20
> For example
>=20
>        0                   1                   2                   3
>        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>       |    Action =3D 4 |E|C| Reserved  |        Length
|
>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>       |     base RB Identifier =3D10
|1|0|1|1|0|0|0|0|1|0|1|1|0|1|0|1|
>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>
|0|0|0|0|1|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|
>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>=20
> Correspond to the following set of RB ids:
> 10,12,13,18,20,21,23,25,30
>=20
> With 32 bits ids :
>        0                   1                   2                   3
>        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>       |    Action =3D 4 |E|C| Reserved  |        Length
|
>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>       |     base RB Identifier
|
>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>       |    Bit Map Word #1 (Lowest numerical RB Id)
|
>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>       :                               :
:
>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>       |    Bit Map Word #N(Highest numerical RB Id)
|
>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>=20
> The previous example will be :
>        0                   1                   2                   3
>        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>       |    Action =3D 4 |E|C| Reserved  |        Length
|
>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>       |     base RB Identifier =3D10
|
>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>
|1|0|1|1|0|0|0|0|1|0|1|1|0|1|0|1|0|0|0|0|1|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|
>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>=20
> General constraints encoding introduce a bitmap set for a set of IDs
> for efficiency, this can apply to each encoding representing a set of
> ids where you can define a group/calculate ID =3D baseID + n.
>=20
> >
> >
> > 6) section 5.1. Resource Block Information Sub-TLV
> >
> > Having an Input Modulation Type List sub-sub-TLV containing a list
of
> > modulation formats (with an input-output bit) and an Output
> Modulation
> > Type List sub-sub-TLV containing a list of modulation formats (with
> an
> > input-output bit) seems redundant because the bit I already
indicates
> > if it is an output or input modulation format.
> >
> > Having a single Modulation Type List sub-sub-TLV is providing the
> same
> > information with an efficient encoding, a single sub-sub-TLV type
> > should be used.
> >
> > Same reasoning apply to the FEC Type List Sub-Sub-TLV.
> >
> > YOUNG>> I guess what you are suggesting is as follows:
> >
> >     0                   1                   2                   3
> >        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0
> 1
> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >       |                     RB Set Field
> |
> >       :
> :
> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >       |I|E|                      Reserved
> |
> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >       |           Modulation Type List Sub-Sub-TLV  (opt)
> |
> >       :
> :
> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >       |           FEC Type List Sub-Sub-TLV    (opt)
> |
> >       :
> :
> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >       |         Input Client Signal Type Sub-Sub-TLV      (opt)
> |
> >       :
> :
> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >       |         Input Bit Rate Range List  Sub-Sub-TLV (opt)
> |
> >       :
> :
> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >       |         Processing Capabilities List Sub-Sub-TLV (opt)
> |
> >       :
> :
> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >
> >
> > YOUNG>> If that's what you suggested, that is fine with me. If that
> is
> > that case, I will revise with this figure in the revision. (Closure)
>=20
> This is what I mean, the logic of "if no egress FEC/Modulation is
> present, this is implicitly the same as the ingress FEC/Modulation".
>=20
> This proposal do not change the format of the FEC and Modulation.
>=20
>  <snip>

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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
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From: "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)" <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 12:25:52 +0200
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: [CCAMP] R:  Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
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Hi John,

 From your answer below:
[JD]=20

The above is quite clear and understandable.  However, it seems inconsisten=
t with the text that caused my initial question, viz, if PT is really just =
something that needs to be presented consistently by a hierarchical LSP's e=
ndpoints to its clients, then why is a PT check being made on the links adj=
acent to that hierarchical LSP's endpoints?=20

[SBPG] Sorry John we're not sure what text you're referring to. Could you c=
larify a little your question . we would pleased to answer.
[JD]
Btw, don't you think it would be better if we used PT rather than TSG and d=
efined three values, 20, 21, and 20|21?

[SBPG] John, your conclusion would be correct, this was exactly our origina=
l thought.
The problem here was that unfortunately G.709 present an "unlucky" case rel=
ated to the multiplexing of an ODU0 into ODU1 in which PT=3D20 , but TSG=3D=
1.25 !!!
So, our reasoning was, since GPID defined in RFC 4328 has been defined not =
for G.709v3,to associate GPID=3D47 to the TSG=3D2.5 (before G.709V3 only th=
is TSG was present), and to add a new GPID value for G.709v3 for TSG=3D1.25=
. In this way e.g. an H-LSP ODU1 , can signal GPID=3Dnew value , even if th=
e PT carried in the MSI of OPU1 OH is 20.
Obviously this problem could also be solved associating to the GPID check t=
he famous , already discussed with you, new "optional" object defining the =
client hierarchy supported by the server LSP. In this case there is no ambi=
guity for ODU1 , as soon as in the tree supported there is ODU0. TSG has to=
 be 1.25 even if PT=3D20.

BR

Sergio, Pietro


-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]=20
Inviato: mercoled=EC 12 ottobre 2011 21.59
A: BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)
Cc: CCAMP; Lou Berger; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); Daniele C=
eccarelli
Oggetto: RE: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG

Snipped, comments inline

>=20
> By this reasoning, it seems to me that we actually need the TSG in both
> the GPID and in the Signal Type, and they may be different.  I.e.,  the
> TSG in the GPID indicates, per your statement below, the TSG that the
> endpoints of an ODUk link or hierarchical LSP export to their clients,
> and the TSG in the Signal Type indicates, per your statement below, the
> TSG used to map an E2E ODUj onto the ODUk links or hierarchical LSPs on
> its path.
>=20
> [SDP] John, it seems as though , Lou has found the right description of
> the requirement in the mail of October 10th (15.12 CEST time). Anyway
> the TSG used to map an E2E ODUj onto a server LSP or links , it is not
> a matter of the ODUj LSP. You need to setup an ODUj with a certain
> rate, the fact this is carried along a path composed by links/FA
> structured with TS size of 2.5 or 1.25 is completely transparent to
> ODUj E2E. The only thing that ODUj E2E has to guarantee is the match
> between adaptation "on output" towards clients at the end points. But
> this is related to the TSG we have suggested to be contained in G-PID.
> Moreover the information of TS mapping on the server , can be obtained,
> by Signal Type in the Traffic Parameters, ODUk/FA interface from IF_ID
> RSVP_HOP object, and the field "length" in the label , indicating the
> number of TS used by client in the server . No need for further
> indication.
>=20
[JD]=20

The above is quite clear and understandable.  However, it seems inconsisten=
t with the text that caused my initial question, viz, if PT is really just =
something that needs to be presented consistently by a hierarchical LSP's e=
ndpoints to its clients, then why is a PT check being made on the links adj=
acent to that hierarchical LSP's endpoints? =20

Btw, don't you think it would be better if we used PT rather than TSG and d=
efined three values, 20, 21, and 20|21?=20

From lberger@labn.net  Thu Oct 13 04:37:46 2011
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Poll on making G.709 Routing and Signaling drafts WG documents
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This poll is now closed.

Author's please republish your documents without any changes other than
draft name.  The drafts should be submitted with the following names:

draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3

and

draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709v3

Please note that an IPR disclosure has been made on the first polled draft:
http://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/search/?option=document_search&id_document_tag=19155

Lou (and Deborah)

On 9/28/2011 12:32 PM, Lou Berger wrote:
> This message starts a two week poll on making the documents listed below
> ccamp working group documents.  Please send a mail to the mailing list
> indicating "yes/support to both" or "no/do not support either".  Of
> course, you may also support one but not the other.  (We will assume
> that you support/object to both if you don't specify.)
> 
> If indicating no, please state your technical reservations with the
> document.
> 
> The documents being polled are:
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ceccarelli-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709-07
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-evolving-g709-09
> 
> The poll ends Wednesday October 12.
> 
> Please also bear in mind that WG adoption does not signify that work is
> complete on the documents or that the technical details are fixed, but
> rather that further development of the documents will take place based
> on WG process.
> 
> Much thanks,
> Lou (and Deborah)
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> 
> 
> 
> 

From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Thu Oct 13 05:23:40 2011
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Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-tp-rsvpte-ext-associated-lsp-02.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane =
Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : RSVP-TE Extensions for Associated Bidirectional LSPs
	Author(s)       : Fei Zhang
                          Ruiquan Jing
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-tp-rsvpte-ext-associated-lsp-02.txt
	Pages           : 12
	Date            : 2011-10-13

   The MPLS Transport Profile (MPLS-TP) requirements document [RFC5654],
   describes that MPLS-TP MUST support associated bidirectional point-
   to-point LSPs.

   This document provides a method to bind two unidirectional Label
   Switched Paths (LSPs) into an associated bidirectional LSP.  The
   association is achieved by using a new Association Type in the
   Extended ASSOCIATION object.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-tp-rsvpte-ext-ass=
ociated-lsp-02.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
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This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-tp-rsvpte-ext-asso=
ciated-lsp-02.txt

From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Thu Oct 13 06:16:23 2011
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Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-00.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane =
Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : Traffic Engineering Extensions to OSPF for Generalized M=
PLS (GMPLS) Control of Evolving G.709 OTN Networks
	Author(s)       : Daniele Ceccarelli
                          Diego Caviglia
                          Fatai Zhang
                          Dan Li
                          Sergio Belotti
                          Pietro Vittorio Grandi
                          Rajan Rao
                          Khuzema Pithewan
                          John E Drake
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-00.txt
	Pages           : 29
	Date            : 2011-10-13

   The recent revision of ITU-T Recommendation G.709 [G709-V3] has
   introduced new fixed and flexible ODU containers, enabling optimized
   support for an increasingly abundant service mix.

   This document describes OSPF routing protocol extensions to support
   Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) control of all currently defined ODU
   containers, in support of both sub-lambda and lambda level routing
   granularity.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-00.t=
xt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
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This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-00.txt

From jdrake@juniper.net  Thu Oct 13 06:46:10 2011
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)" <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 06:44:20 -0700
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
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Snipped, comments inline

> -----Original Message-----
> From: BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO) [mailto:sergio.belotti@alcatel-
> lucent.com]
> Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 6:26 AM
> To: John E Drake
> Cc: CCAMP; Lou Berger; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO);
> Daniele Ceccarelli
> Subject: R: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
>=20
> Hi John,
>=20
>  From your answer below:
> [JD]
>=20
> The above is quite clear and understandable.  However, it seems
> inconsistent with the text that caused my initial question, viz, if PT
> is really just something that needs to be presented consistently by a
> hierarchical LSP's endpoints to its clients, then why is a PT check
> being made on the links adjacent to that hierarchical LSP's endpoints?
>=20
> [SBPG] Sorry John we're not sure what text you're referring to. Could
> you clarify a little your question . we would pleased to answer.
[JD]=20

Here's the text that I found inconsistent:

"The payload has to be considered only when selecting the last interface/FA=
.  The last interface/FA must be selected in such a way to be able to suppo=
rt the signal type of the LSP being set up and, in addition, to grant that =
the LSP termination supports a 2.5/1.25 payload structure depending from th=
e client payload requested by signaling."


From sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com  Thu Oct 13 07:54:20 2011
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From: "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)" <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 16:54:11 +0200
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: [CCAMP] R:  Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
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John,

Sincerely we do not catch inconsistency.
We need to match input ingress adaptation with adaptation on output. Not al=
l the interfaces are able to support all the adaptations type (and then bot=
h the TSG), then is on the links adiacent to the end points that we need to=
 select the proper interface to guarantee the match.

Hope this clarify=20

Sergio and Pietro

SERGIO BELOTTI

ALCATEL-LUCENT
Terrestrial System Architect
Optics Portfolio Evolution

via Trento 30 , Vimercate(MI)  Italy
T: +39 0396863033
Sergio.Belotti@alcatel-lucent.com




-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]=20
Inviato: gioved=EC 13 ottobre 2011 15.44
A: BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)
Cc: CCAMP; Lou Berger; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); Daniele C=
eccarelli
Oggetto: RE: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG

Snipped, comments inline

> -----Original Message-----
> From: BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO) [mailto:sergio.belotti@alcatel-
> lucent.com]
> Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 6:26 AM
> To: John E Drake
> Cc: CCAMP; Lou Berger; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO);
> Daniele Ceccarelli
> Subject: R: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
>=20
> Hi John,
>=20
>  From your answer below:
> [JD]
>=20
> The above is quite clear and understandable.  However, it seems
> inconsistent with the text that caused my initial question, viz, if PT
> is really just something that needs to be presented consistently by a
> hierarchical LSP's endpoints to its clients, then why is a PT check
> being made on the links adjacent to that hierarchical LSP's endpoints?
>=20
> [SBPG] Sorry John we're not sure what text you're referring to. Could
> you clarify a little your question . we would pleased to answer.
[JD]=20

Here's the text that I found inconsistent:

"The payload has to be considered only when selecting the last interface/FA=
.  The last interface/FA must be selected in such a way to be able to suppo=
rt the signal type of the LSP being set up and, in addition, to grant that =
the LSP termination supports a 2.5/1.25 payload structure depending from th=
e client payload requested by signaling."


From lberger@labn.net  Thu Oct 13 08:02:48 2011
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] R:  Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
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On 10/13/2011 10:54 AM, BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO) wrote:
> John,
> 
> Sincerely we do not catch inconsistency.
> We need to match input ingress adaptation with adaptation on output.
> Not all the interfaces are able to support all the adaptations type
> (and then both the TSG), then is on the links adiacent to the end
> points that we need to select the proper interface to guarantee the
> match.
> 

This is exactly one of things that LSP encoding was intended to support.

Lou

> Hope this clarify 
> 
> Sergio and Pietro
> 
> SERGIO BELOTTI
> 
> ALCATEL-LUCENT
> Terrestrial System Architect
> Optics Portfolio Evolution
> 
> via Trento 30 , Vimercate(MI)  Italy
> T: +39 0396863033
> Sergio.Belotti@alcatel-lucent.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Messaggio originale-----
> Da: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net] 
> Inviato: gioved 13 ottobre 2011 15.44
> A: BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)
> Cc: CCAMP; Lou Berger; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); Daniele Ceccarelli
> Oggetto: RE: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
> 
> Snipped, comments inline
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO) [mailto:sergio.belotti@alcatel-
>> lucent.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 6:26 AM
>> To: John E Drake
>> Cc: CCAMP; Lou Berger; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO);
>> Daniele Ceccarelli
>> Subject: R: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
>>
>> Hi John,
>>
>>  From your answer below:
>> [JD]
>>
>> The above is quite clear and understandable.  However, it seems
>> inconsistent with the text that caused my initial question, viz, if PT
>> is really just something that needs to be presented consistently by a
>> hierarchical LSP's endpoints to its clients, then why is a PT check
>> being made on the links adjacent to that hierarchical LSP's endpoints?
>>
>> [SBPG] Sorry John we're not sure what text you're referring to. Could
>> you clarify a little your question . we would pleased to answer.
> [JD] 
> 
> Here's the text that I found inconsistent:
> 
> "The payload has to be considered only when selecting the last interface/FA.  The last interface/FA must be selected in such a way to be able to support the signal type of the LSP being set up and, in addition, to grant that the LSP termination supports a 2.5/1.25 payload structure depending from the client payload requested by signaling."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

From jdrake@juniper.net  Thu Oct 13 10:29:53 2011
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)" <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:28:06 -0700
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
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References: <F050945A8D8E9A44A71039532BA344D8184D5AA0@FRMRSSXCHMBSB1.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com> <4E8C90BB.70008@labn.net> <B5630A95D803744A81C51AD4040A6DAA1DCF2939AF@ESESSCMS0360.eemea.ericsson.se> <4E92F602.3060901@labn.net> <D89B562FE4A5B341B18808FB8441CC7C1843EF92@FRMRSSXCHMBSB1.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com> <5E893DB832F57341992548CDBB333163A442C326F4@EMBX01-HQ.jnpr.net> <D89B562FE4A5B341B18808FB8441CC7C1843F0B6@FRMRSSXCHMBSB1.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com> <5E893DB832F57341992548CDBB333163A442C3315B@EMBX01-HQ.jnpr.net> <F050945A8D8E9A44A71039532BA344D81858725D@FRMRSSXCHMBSB1.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com> <5E893DB832F57341992548CDBB333163A442F84DBD@EMBX01-HQ.jnpr.net> <F050945A8D8E9A44A71039532BA344D818587755@FRMRSSXCHMBSB1.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com> <5E893DB832F57341992548CDBB333163A442F85443@EMBX01-HQ.jnpr.net> <F050945A8D8E9A44A71039532BA344D8185878FA@FRMRSSXCHMBSB1.dc-m.alcatel-lucent.com>
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
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Sergio and Pietro,

I'm sorry for being dense but you make a leap from discussing interfaces to=
 links that I don't follow.  Why is it not sufficient to verify that the TS=
G of the two interfaces on which a hierarchical LSP terminates are the same=
?

Also, strictly speaking, links don't have attributes; only interfaces have =
attributes.

If the egress interface is associated with an unbundled link, the penultima=
te node doesn't have any choice in selecting the outgoing interface from it=
self.  If the egress interface is associated with a bundled link, it doesn'=
t matter which component link the penultimate node chooses because bundled =
links are homogeneous wrt TSG. =20

Thanks,

John

> -----Original Message-----
> From: BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO) [mailto:sergio.belotti@alcatel-
> lucent.com]
> Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 10:54 AM
> To: John E Drake
> Cc: CCAMP; Lou Berger; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO);
> Daniele Ceccarelli; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)
> Subject: R: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
>=20
> John,
>=20
> Sincerely we do not catch inconsistency.
> We need to match input ingress adaptation with adaptation on output.
> Not all the interfaces are able to support all the adaptations type
> (and then both the TSG), then is on the links adiacent to the end
> points that we need to select the proper interface to guarantee the
> match.
>=20
> Hope this clarify
>=20
> Sergio and Pietro
>=20
> SERGIO BELOTTI
>=20
> ALCATEL-LUCENT
> Terrestrial System Architect
> Optics Portfolio Evolution
>=20
> via Trento 30 , Vimercate(MI)  Italy
> T: +39 0396863033
> Sergio.Belotti@alcatel-lucent.com
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Messaggio originale-----
> Da: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> Inviato: gioved=EC 13 ottobre 2011 15.44
> A: BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)
> Cc: CCAMP; Lou Berger; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO);
> Daniele Ceccarelli
> Oggetto: RE: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
>=20
> Snipped, comments inline
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO) [mailto:sergio.belotti@alcatel-
> > lucent.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 6:26 AM
> > To: John E Drake
> > Cc: CCAMP; Lou Berger; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO);
> > Daniele Ceccarelli
> > Subject: R: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
> >
> > Hi John,
> >
> >  From your answer below:
> > [JD]
> >
> > The above is quite clear and understandable.  However, it seems
> > inconsistent with the text that caused my initial question, viz, if
> PT
> > is really just something that needs to be presented consistently by a
> > hierarchical LSP's endpoints to its clients, then why is a PT check
> > being made on the links adjacent to that hierarchical LSP's
> endpoints?
> >
> > [SBPG] Sorry John we're not sure what text you're referring to. Could
> > you clarify a little your question . we would pleased to answer.
> [JD]
>=20
> Here's the text that I found inconsistent:
>=20
> "The payload has to be considered only when selecting the last
> interface/FA.  The last interface/FA must be selected in such a way to
> be able to support the signal type of the LSP being set up and, in
> addition, to grant that the LSP termination supports a 2.5/1.25 payload
> structure depending from the client payload requested by signaling."


From lberger@labn.net  Thu Oct 13 14:28:37 2011
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Subject: [CCAMP] FYI - draft agenda posted
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Note, per the *draft* agenda see
	http://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/82/agenda.txt ccamp
we're scheduled for:

TUESDAY, November 15, 2011
1300-1500  Afternoon Session I
FRIDAY, November 18, 2011
0900-1100  Morning Session I

This is still subject to change.

Lou


From tnadeau@lucidvision.com  Thu Oct 13 14:33:35 2011
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Subject: [CCAMP] Software Defined Networks (SDN) BoF in Taipei
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	As an FYI, the initial schedule is out.  The SDN BoF is planned =
for Thursday afternoon from 1520-1720 in room 201 DEF.

http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/82/

	As usual, caveat emptor in that this is the initial schedule =
which often changes.  Please plan on being there M-F in case the =
schedule changes.

	--Tom


From sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com  Fri Oct 14 03:08:04 2011
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From: "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)" <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 12:07:40 +0200
Thread-Topic: R: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: [CCAMP] R: R:  Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
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Lou,

We tried just to explain why there is no inconsistency, without mention whe=
re to carry the needed information. Did you catch inconsistency in our expl=
anation?=20
see in line for further comments.

Thanks

Sergio and Pietro


-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]=20
Inviato: gioved=EC 13 ottobre 2011 17.03
A: BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)
Cc: John E Drake; CCAMP; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); Daniele=
 Ceccarelli
Oggetto: Re: R: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG



On 10/13/2011 10:54 AM, BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO) wrote:
> John,
>=20
> Sincerely we do not catch inconsistency.
> We need to match input ingress adaptation with adaptation on output.
> Not all the interfaces are able to support all the adaptations type
> (and then both the TSG), then is on the links adiacent to the end
> points that we need to select the proper interface to guarantee the
> match.
>=20

This is exactly one of things that LSP encoding was intended to support.

[ALU] Let us try to summarize what is needed against our understanding of t=
he different options .

Is the LSP encoding "the nature of LSP" ? If yes, we expect that the LSP en=
coding carried in Generalized Label Request object, qualifies the LSP as an=
 ODU G.709 LSP ( encoding value =3D 12 ).

Now, suppose to have two H-LSP ODU2 , carried over links OTU3.
For simplicity, let's assume that both of them are setup between the same e=
nd points, but one is characterized by adaptation towards client in the ing=
ress with 1.25 TSG while the other is characterized by adaptation towards c=
lient in the ingress with 2.5 TSG.

In our view when these LSP have to be signaled, both of them have the same =
LSP nature: both are H-LSP ODU2, and the generalized Label Request carries =
the value 12 in the encoding field.

The difference between the two LSPs is not in their nature but is in someth=
ing that is related to the support of different clients, so related to payl=
oad carried.

Let us know whether we missed something in the description.


Lou

> Hope this clarify=20
>=20
> Sergio and Pietro
>=20
> SERGIO BELOTTI
>=20
> ALCATEL-LUCENT
> Terrestrial System Architect
> Optics Portfolio Evolution
>=20
> via Trento 30 , Vimercate(MI)  Italy
> T: +39 0396863033
> Sergio.Belotti@alcatel-lucent.com
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Messaggio originale-----
> Da: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]=20
> Inviato: gioved=EC 13 ottobre 2011 15.44
> A: BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)
> Cc: CCAMP; Lou Berger; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); Daniele=
 Ceccarelli
> Oggetto: RE: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
>=20
> Snipped, comments inline
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO) [mailto:sergio.belotti@alcatel-
>> lucent.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 6:26 AM
>> To: John E Drake
>> Cc: CCAMP; Lou Berger; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO);
>> Daniele Ceccarelli
>> Subject: R: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
>>
>> Hi John,
>>
>>  From your answer below:
>> [JD]
>>
>> The above is quite clear and understandable.  However, it seems
>> inconsistent with the text that caused my initial question, viz, if PT
>> is really just something that needs to be presented consistently by a
>> hierarchical LSP's endpoints to its clients, then why is a PT check
>> being made on the links adjacent to that hierarchical LSP's endpoints?
>>
>> [SBPG] Sorry John we're not sure what text you're referring to. Could
>> you clarify a little your question . we would pleased to answer.
> [JD]=20
>=20
> Here's the text that I found inconsistent:
>=20
> "The payload has to be considered only when selecting the last interface/=
FA.  The last interface/FA must be selected in such a way to be able to sup=
port the signal type of the LSP being set up and, in addition, to grant tha=
t the LSP termination supports a 2.5/1.25 payload structure depending from =
the client payload requested by signaling."
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20

From adrian@olddog.co.uk  Sun Oct 16 12:40:11 2011
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Subject: [CCAMP] New I-D for Flexi-grid labels
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Hi,

You are probably aware that Question 6 of Study Group 15 of the ITU-T has been
working on the "flexible grid" specification for selecting lambdas for use in
optical
signaling and switching.

This draft is a stake in the ground for defining a label for use in GMPLS that
can
encode a lambda selected from the flexible grid according to the specification
of
Q6/15.

As the draft observes, there is no intention for this document to become an RFC
before Q6/15 have finished their work, and I personally (as an author of the
draft) would expect that we would ask Q6/15 to comment on our encoding to
ensure we are interpreting the concept correctly and encoding all of the
parameters.

Since posting the draft
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-farrkingel-ccamp-flexigrid-lambda-label-00)
Dan and I became aware that there was prior work in this area
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-ccamp-flexible-grid-label-00). It was
certainly not our intention to compete with this other draft and so we are
talking with its authors with a view to merging our efforts. Watch out for a new
revision soon.

Cheers,
Adrian



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From: "Daniel King" <daniel@olddog.co.uk>
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Hi All,

Agenda Requests
Please send me (CC'ing the chairs) your requests for time on the working
group agenda. Please let us have your requests by Friday, October 28th.

Presentations
If you are presenting slides please make sure you send then to me (CC'ing
the chairs) by Saturday, November 12th.  

Key cut-off dates 
These are located at:
http://www.ietf.org/meeting/cutoff-dates-2011.html#IETF82

2011-10-24 (Monday): Internet Draft Cut-off for initial document (-00)
2011-10-31 (Monday): Internet Draft final submission (>00)

Draft Agenda (subject to change - final agenda to be posted on 2011-10-21)
http://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/82/agenda.txt

Br, Dan. 


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From adrian@olddog.co.uk  Mon Oct 17 01:49:41 2011
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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "'Zhangfatai'" <zhangfatai@huawei.com>
References: <015f01cc8c3b$688dbbe0$39a933a0$@olddog.co.uk> <F82A4B6D50F9464B8EBA55651F541CF824C78432@SZXEML520-MBS.china.huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] New I-D for Flexi-grid labels
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Hi Fatai,

Well there certainly seems to be a rush to make drafts in this area. So =
either it is really important or a good opportunity to write a draft.

We have just completed the work to merge the Yao Li's draft with the =
work Dan and I had done. And I have just posted this.
http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-farrkingel-ccamp-flexigrid-lambda-label-01.t=
xt

It looks like the finer details of our draft are the same as those in =
Fatai's draft. That is, we all recognise the need for an additional =
parameter "m" to define the slot width. Additionally, we all recognise =
the need to define a new channel spacing value for 6.25 GHz.

There are two main difference between the approaches. In my view the =
differences can be handled separately.

1. Where is the m parameter carried?

draft-farrkingel suggests it belongs in the label
draft-zhang says it should be a traffic parameter

My view (obviously) is that m is an important feature of the switchable =
quantity and is not simply a description of the bandwidth. The negative =
of putting m in the label is that the label size is increased.=20

The WG will need to discuss this.

2. Is a new Grid value needed?

draft-zhang says flexigrid is from the DWDM grid and so should use the =
existing DWDM value.

draft-farrkingel suggests it would be clearer to assign a new value so =
that the label can be easily distinguished from the fixed grid cases. =
Note, however, that the draft-farrkingel approach could use the DWDM =
grid value without any change to the label format proposed in the draft.

Again, the WG will need to discuss this.

Thanks,
Adrian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Zhangfatai [mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com]
> Sent: 17 October 2011 02:45
> To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; ccamp@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] New I-D for Flexi-grid labels
>=20
> Hi Adrian and all,
>=20
> You may be aware that we have done some work on this area and we have
> submitted some drafts about flexible grid.
>=20
> The first one is about the GMPLS requirements of flexible grid, =
another one is
> about signaling draft for flexible grid.
>=20
> We are trying to give an overview of flexible grid tech (including =
GMPLS
> requirements) to the CCAMPers and provide the signaling extensions for =
flexible
> grid control instead of only focusing on the label format.
>=20
> You can see more details from:
>=20
> =
http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-zhang-ccamp-flexible-grid-requirements-00.=
txt
>=20
> =
http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zhang-ccamp-flexible-grid-rsvp-te-ext-00.txt=

>=20
>=20
> Any comments or suggestions are welcome.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Thanks
>=20
> Fatai
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of
> Adrian Farrel
> Sent: 2011=E5=B9=B410=E6=9C=8817=E6=97=A5 3:40
> To: ccamp@ietf.org
> Subject: [CCAMP] New I-D for Flexi-grid labels
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> You are probably aware that Question 6 of Study Group 15 of the ITU-T =
has been
> working on the "flexible grid" specification for selecting lambdas for =
use in
> optical
> signaling and switching.
>=20
> This draft is a stake in the ground for defining a label for use in =
GMPLS that
> can
> encode a lambda selected from the flexible grid according to the =
specification
> of
> Q6/15.
>=20
> As the draft observes, there is no intention for this document to =
become an RFC
> before Q6/15 have finished their work, and I personally (as an author =
of the
> draft) would expect that we would ask Q6/15 to comment on our encoding =
to
> ensure we are interpreting the concept correctly and encoding all of =
the
> parameters.
>=20
> Since posting the draft
> =
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-farrkingel-ccamp-flexigrid-lambda-label=
-00)
> Dan and I became aware that there was prior work in this area
> (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-ccamp-flexible-grid-label-00). It =
was
> certainly not our intention to compete with this other draft and so we =
are
> talking with its authors with a view to merging our efforts. Watch out =
for a new
> revision soon.
>=20
> Cheers,
> Adrian
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp


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Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:34:42 +0000
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From: "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)" <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 12:17:40 +0200
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: [CCAMP] R:  Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
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John,

Independently for the words used (links vs interfaces) it seems as though t=
here is some fundamental misunderstanding.
As suggested by Lou, we are trying to write some text in the Info draft to =
clarify the point. We can send the text in preview to parse it before offic=
ially circulate in the mailing list.=20

Thanks

Sergio, Daniele, Pietro




-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]=20
Inviato: gioved=EC 13 ottobre 2011 19.28
A: BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)
Cc: CCAMP; Lou Berger; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO); Daniele C=
eccarelli
Oggetto: RE: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG

Sergio and Pietro,

I'm sorry for being dense but you make a leap from discussing interfaces to=
 links that I don't follow.  Why is it not sufficient to verify that the TS=
G of the two interfaces on which a hierarchical LSP terminates are the same=
?

Also, strictly speaking, links don't have attributes; only interfaces have =
attributes.

If the egress interface is associated with an unbundled link, the penultima=
te node doesn't have any choice in selecting the outgoing interface from it=
self.  If the egress interface is associated with a bundled link, it doesn'=
t matter which component link the penultimate node chooses because bundled =
links are homogeneous wrt TSG. =20

Thanks,

John

> -----Original Message-----
> From: BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO) [mailto:sergio.belotti@alcatel-
> lucent.com]
> Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 10:54 AM
> To: John E Drake
> Cc: CCAMP; Lou Berger; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO);
> Daniele Ceccarelli; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)
> Subject: R: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
>=20
> John,
>=20
> Sincerely we do not catch inconsistency.
> We need to match input ingress adaptation with adaptation on output.
> Not all the interfaces are able to support all the adaptations type
> (and then both the TSG), then is on the links adiacent to the end
> points that we need to select the proper interface to guarantee the
> match.
>=20
> Hope this clarify
>=20
> Sergio and Pietro
>=20
> SERGIO BELOTTI
>=20
> ALCATEL-LUCENT
> Terrestrial System Architect
> Optics Portfolio Evolution
>=20
> via Trento 30 , Vimercate(MI)  Italy
> T: +39 0396863033
> Sergio.Belotti@alcatel-lucent.com
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Messaggio originale-----
> Da: John E Drake [mailto:jdrake@juniper.net]
> Inviato: gioved=EC 13 ottobre 2011 15.44
> A: BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)
> Cc: CCAMP; Lou Berger; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO);
> Daniele Ceccarelli
> Oggetto: RE: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
>=20
> Snipped, comments inline
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO) [mailto:sergio.belotti@alcatel-
> > lucent.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 6:26 AM
> > To: John E Drake
> > Cc: CCAMP; Lou Berger; GRANDI, PIETRO VITTORIO (PIETRO VITTORIO);
> > Daniele Ceccarelli
> > Subject: R: [CCAMP] Thought on where to carry G.709-v3 TSG
> >
> > Hi John,
> >
> >  From your answer below:
> > [JD]
> >
> > The above is quite clear and understandable.  However, it seems
> > inconsistent with the text that caused my initial question, viz, if
> PT
> > is really just something that needs to be presented consistently by a
> > hierarchical LSP's endpoints to its clients, then why is a PT check
> > being made on the links adjacent to that hierarchical LSP's
> endpoints?
> >
> > [SBPG] Sorry John we're not sure what text you're referring to. Could
> > you clarify a little your question . we would pleased to answer.
> [JD]
>=20
> Here's the text that I found inconsistent:
>=20
> "The payload has to be considered only when selecting the last
> interface/FA.  The last interface/FA must be selected in such a way to
> be able to support the signal type of the LSP being set up and, in
> addition, to grant that the LSP termination supports a 2.5/1.25 payload
> structure depending from the client payload requested by signaling."


From ramon.casellas@cttc.es  Mon Oct 17 03:33:39 2011
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Dear Fatai, Adrian, all


I am somehow reluctant to state my opinion, given the lack of a standard 
data plane and a common view of what an elastic/flexigrid/... optical 
network is, including the role of modulation formats, FECs, etc...

This is somehow not problematic for the case of the label definition 
which maps ITU SG15 Q6, but it may be if work is started for signalling, 
routing or path computation

In any case, FWIW and for the sake of discussion, please find below, 
in-line, my views



El 17/10/2011 10:49, Adrian Farrel escribió:
> Hi Fatai,
>
> 1. Where is the m parameter carried?
>
> draft-farrkingel suggests it belongs in the label
> draft-zhang says it should be a traffic parameter

In my humble opinion, I think it belongs to the label / label encoding, 
some arguments for this could be:


* much like in WSON the label identifies directly the wavelength and the 
switched resource, in SSON / EON the label should identify the switched 
resource, identified by the involved slots, i.e. base slot and slot 
count, the "slice" or frequency range
   All drafts have chosen to align with current encoding of LSC labels, 
RFC6205, based on a 32 bit format. If 64 bit is problematic, alternative 
methods could be proposed, e.g., such as (this was proposed before the 
notion of "identifier" was introduced in WSON)

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
|Grid |  C.S. |   m             |              n                |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+


* It seems to me that having m in the label itself will ease the 
processing of SUGGESTED_LABEL, RECOVERY_LABEL, and, notably, 
UPSTREAM_LABEL, which  should include m. This does not require support 
for asymmetric bandwidth, and m is required for the upstream label 
processing / cross-connect during the Path message

* In waveband switching in, say RFC3473, the generalized label 
identifies (by mean of start/end) the involved wavelengths. I am aware 
that waveband switching and elastic channel is not exactly the same, but 
shows the taken approach

* In ERO / RRO processing, using Explicit Label Control, I would need 
the number of slots that are switched. This is helpful say, for 
centralized/PCE based RSA.

* If using say, a LABEL_SET object, each entry in the LABEL_SET could be 
a potential label to be selected, knowing m here eases operation. 
Similar, a simplistic identification of a  "cross-connect" is determined 
by in_port - in_label / out_port - out_label. The knowledge of m at this 
point is required

I could imagine the sender descriptor tspec e.g. containing the rate 
(e.g. 10/40/100 Gbps) of the request. Depending on the chosen modulation 
format, FEC, guards and so on, a traffic request of 40 Gbps, can 
require, using e.g. OFDM 16-QAM say 20 GHz of optical spectrum. Another 
modulation may require 40 GHz. The optical spectrum will determine, 
given the slot width, the number of slots for that request. Selecting 
the slots (Spectrum Assigment) is somehow analog to WA (wavelength 
assignment)

This are just my subjective views, open. I would also like to see other 
ones :-)



> 2. Is a new Grid value needed?
>
> draft-zhang says flexigrid is from the DWDM grid and so should use the existing DWDM value.
>
> draft-farrkingel suggests it would be clearer to assign a new value so that the label can be easily distinguished from the fixed grid cases. Note, however, that the draft-farrkingel approach could use the DWDM grid value without any change to the label format proposed in the draft.
I agree with the latter approach.



Another question that has arisen in private discussions, which I 
forward, is whether you think a new switching type should be defined 
(other than LSC)  -- I don't have a clear opinion on this --


Thanks and best regards

Ramon


From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Mon Oct 17 04:04:32 2011
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Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709v3-00.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane =
Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Signa=
ling Extensions for the evolving G.709 Optical Transport Networks Control
	Author(s)       : Fatai Zhang
                          Guoying Zhang
                          Sergio Belotti
                          Daniele Ceccarelli
                          Khuzema Pithewan
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709v3-00.txt
	Pages           : 24
	Date            : 2011-10-16

   Recent progress in ITU-T Recommendation G.709 standardization has
   introduced new ODU containers (ODU0, ODU4, ODU2e and ODUflex) and
   enhanced Optical Transport Networking (OTN) flexibility. Several
   recent documents have proposed ways to modify GMPLS signaling
   protocols to support these new OTN features.

   It is important that a single solution is developed for use in GMPLS
   signaling and routing protocols. This solution must support ODUk
   multiplexing capabilities, address all of the new features, be
   acceptable to all equipment vendors, and be extensible considering
   continued OTN evolution.

   This document describes the extensions to the Generalized Multi-
   Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS) signaling to control the evolving
   Optical Transport Networks (OTN) addressing ODUk multiplexing and new
   features including ODU0, ODU4, ODU2e and ODUflex.





A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709v3=
-00.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709v3-=
00.txt

From zhang.fei3@zte.com.cn  Mon Oct 17 04:09:07 2011
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Subject: [CCAMP] Request comments on draft-zhang-ccamp-mpls-tp-rsvpte-ext-tunnel-num-00
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Hi all

We've submitted a draft for the group's consideration, below is the link:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-ccamp-mpls-tp-rsvpte-ext-tunnel-num-00.

This draft is about the supporting of MPLS-TP Maintenance Identifiers. As 
described in http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6370, at each end point, a 
tunnel is uniquely identified by the end point's Node_ID and a locally 
assigned tunnel number, which allow a compact form for the MEP_ID, and 
extensions will be required to GMPLS to support these identifiers. 
Furthermore, http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6373 addressed this issue in 
section 4.4.8.

Obviously, this issue can be solved by defining a new object, such as 
Connection Object as described in this draft, or a new sub-TLV call MEP_ID 
can be carried back to the ingress LSR in Resv message when the "CV" flag 
of the OAM Function Flags Sub-TLV is set, which may be considered in the 
subsequent version of the draft 
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-mpls-tp-oam-ext-06.

We hope you'll find the time to look through the draft and comment on the 
list, help judge which way is more suitable before the WG meeting in 
Taipei, and hope that we'll be able to have a fruitful and lively 
discussion there.


Best,

Fei
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<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Hi all</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">We've submitted a draft for the group's
consideration, below is the link:</font>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-ccamp-mpls-tp-rsvpte-ext-tunnel-num-00.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">This draft is about the supporting of
MPLS-TP Maintenance Identifiers. As described in http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6370,
at each end point, a tunnel is uniquely identified by the end point's Node_ID
and a locally assigned tunnel number, which allow a compact form for the
MEP_ID, and extensions will be required to GMPLS to support these identifiers.
Furthermore, http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6373 addressed this issue in
section 4.4.8.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Obviously, this issue can be solved
by defining a new object, such as Connection Object as described in this
draft, or a new sub-TLV call MEP_ID can be carried back to the ingress
LSR in Resv message when the &quot;CV&quot; flag of the OAM Function Flags
Sub-TLV is set, which may be considered in the subsequent version of the
draft http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-mpls-tp-oam-ext-06.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">We hope you'll find the time to&nbsp;look
through the draft and comment on the list, help judge which way is more
suitable before the WG meeting in Taipei, and hope that we'll be able to
have a fruitful and lively discussion there.</font>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Best,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Fei</font>
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From IHussain@infinera.com  Mon Oct 17 11:53:41 2011
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From: Iftekhar Hussain <IHussain@infinera.com>
To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "ccamp@ietf.org" <ccamp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] New I-D for Flexi-grid labels
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Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:53:35 +0000
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] New I-D for Flexi-grid labels
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Hi Adrian,

FYI...Please note there is another draft on this topic which was not mentio=
ned below

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hussain-ccamp-super-channel-label-00

Regards,
Iftekhar
-----Original Message-----
From: Adrian Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk]=20
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 12:40 PM
To: ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: [CCAMP] New I-D for Flexi-grid labels

Hi,

You are probably aware that Question 6 of Study Group 15 of the ITU-T has b=
een working on the "flexible grid" specification for selecting lambdas for =
use in optical signaling and switching.

This draft is a stake in the ground for defining a label for use in GMPLS t=
hat can encode a lambda selected from the flexible grid according to the sp=
ecification of Q6/15.

As the draft observes, there is no intention for this document to become an=
 RFC before Q6/15 have finished their work, and I personally (as an author =
of the
draft) would expect that we would ask Q6/15 to comment on our encoding to e=
nsure we are interpreting the concept correctly and encoding all of the par=
ameters.

Since posting the draft
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-farrkingel-ccamp-flexigrid-lambda-label-0=
0)
Dan and I became aware that there was prior work in this area (http://tools=
.ietf.org/html/draft-li-ccamp-flexible-grid-label-00). It was certainly not=
 our intention to compete with this other draft and so we are talking with =
its authors with a view to merging our efforts. Watch out for a new revisio=
n soon.

Cheers,
Adrian




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Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 08:37:24 +0000
From: Zhangfatai <zhangfatai@huawei.com>
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To: Ramon Casellas <ramon.casellas@cttc.es>, "ccamp@ietf.org" <ccamp@ietf.org>
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Thread-topic: [CCAMP] New I-D for Flexi-grid labels
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] New I-D for Flexi-grid labels
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Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:33:08 +0000
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] New I-D for Flexi-grid labels
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Dear Fatai, all

Please see inline. Apologies for the long mail

El 18/10/2011 10:37, Zhangfatai escribió:
>
> Dear Ramon,
>
> Thanks for your comments.
>
> Firstly, from control plane perspective, label definition cannot exist 
> without routing or signaling. If there is no Flex-Grid tech in data 
> plane, there is no need to define label format for Flex-Grid, so we 
> have the same assumption that there will be Flex-Grid tech ready for 
> the industry. Based on this assumption, if we define label format, we 
> should have an overall perspective to figure out how to define an 
> appropriate label format in the environment of signaling or routing.
>

That's a good point. It is fine for me to start considering, as a 
whole,  aspects such as path computation, routing and signalling. And 
you are right that only defining the label without further consideration 
seems pointless.

I guess my main point was that, at least for me, I still have some 
concerns regarding data plane aspects that I would like to clarify. 
Maybe not in the basic flex-grid technology / concept itself, but in the 
network as a whole. For example, should we consider the equivalent of 
wavelength converters for elastic frequency slots or slices?. Is a 
"Flexi" Switch Capable LSP bounded by O/E/O conversions and remains only 
on the optical domain ? should we still work under the unbrella of LSC 
or define a new switching layer? what's the role of modulation formats, 
transceivers, and so on? - Hussain Iftekhar draft 
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hussain-ccamp-super-channel-label-00) 
considers that a label can correspond to several, non-necessary 
contiguous basic slots thus Hussain's and Adrian-Yao's drafts differ on 
the basic concept of a switchable entity. As you may guess, I don't have 
answers for these... :-) a common framework would be useful, nothing more.

Of course, this does not preclude to start work on CCAMP with an initial 
set of assumptions, mainly as an extended WSON, call it, for example, 
SSON :)  I would like, by no means, to object to work on this area :D


> Let's focus on the tech stuff.
>
> I have some questions from your comments, especially from your 
> penultimate paragraph of the first point.
>
>

> What is resource in the Flex-Grid? I think the answer is “Frequency” 
> or “Spectrum”. How much resource should be reserved? What information 
> should be based on when each node reserves the resource? What is the 
> role of the Traffic Parameters?
>
I agree with yout that the controled resource is the optical spectrum. 
The problem I see is that depending on other factors such as FECs, 
modulation formats and related, I think that there is not a one to one 
relationship between data rates and optical spectrum, depending on the 
choice of modulation format (a CBR data rate of 40 Gbps could end-up 
requiring e.g. 40 GHz or less?). Additionally, Yao's example showing 
that a given client of 40 Gbps sent over a flexi LSP which croses O/E/O 
nodes could end up "consuming" different "frequency slices" at each side 
of the O/E/O is a good one (I tend to think that developing  data plane 
technologies such as OFDM and similar will have an important role in 
flexi-nets).

This problem does not seem to occur in, say, packet switched networks in 
the sense that the controled resource (link bandwidth) and the traffic 
characterization are in the same "units" and the traffic trunk or 
aggregate is based on the statistical / asynchronous multiplexing with 
seemingly well defined rules.

To answer your question, the resource to be reserved is the optrical 
spectrum, which can be translated to a unsigned integer > 0 (m) of 
consecutive basic slots of a given, known in advance, size. My first 
impression is that, if a node knows m (and of course, grid, CS and n), 
it has  the basic information to  do the actual reservation and the 
cross-connect. This does not preclude that other information (notably 
TSPEC) could be used (locally, or globaly depending on aspects such as 
continuity constraint, transparency ...) to deduce m for a given client 
signal. A basic example can be given in the case of a centralized PCE 
that does the Routing, modulation, FEC assignment, and indicates the 
optical spectrum in GHz and then a distributed signaling performs the 
Spectrum Assignment (SA), where RSVP can collect the free slots and the 
egress node, knowing all the LSP parameters, can compute m and start the 
reservation upstream with m encoded in the label. This procedure can be 
repeated any time there is a O/E/O conversion (your requirement drafts 
refers to this as R+SA if I am not mistaken).


> So, could you clarify what information should be carried in the 
> Traffic Parameters?
>
I am sorry I don't have exact, concrete answers, just food for thoughts 
and rough ideas. To some extent I had this question even in WSON. What 
the purpose of say, a token-bucket TSPEC / FLOWSPEC in WSON? It is 
advised to have just peak rate? Isn't the actual reserved element a 
wavelength, regardless of the actual client signal?
My "preliminary" view is that the TSPEC could contain, as a bare 
minimum, the data rate (in Gbps) of the client signal which is required 
to deduce "m". This information can be used, say, by a PCE to deduce the 
optical spectrum (in GHz), knowing the modulation format selected for 
the path,  based on physical impairments, physical distance, OSNR / SER 
requirements and so on. It follows that those parameters could be 
conveyed in the "extended" TSPEC: optical spectrum, FEC, modulation 
format, helping WA / SA that happens at each regeneration point to 
deduce "m" which is encoded in the label for each "transparent" segment.

Thank you for the insightful question. Your view on this issue would be 
very useful to come up to some consensus on what would be the 
information and encoding in the TSPEC.


Thanks and best regards
Ramon

--------------060506070303080308020604
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    Dear Fatai, all<br>
    <br>
    Please see inline. Apologies for the long mail<br>
    <br>
    El 18/10/2011 10:37, Zhangfatai escribió:
    <blockquote
cite="mid:F82A4B6D50F9464B8EBA55651F541CF825C831A6@SZXEML520-MBX.china.huawei.com"
      type="cite">
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
            lang="EN-US">Dear Ramon,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
            lang="EN-US">Thanks for your comments.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
            lang="EN-US">Firstly, from control plane perspective, label
            definition cannot exist without routing or signaling. If
            there is no Flex-Grid tech in data plane, there is no need
            to define label format for Flex-Grid, so we have the same
            assumption that there will be Flex-Grid tech ready for the
            industry. Based on this assumption, if we define label
            format, we should have an overall perspective to figure out
            how to define an appropriate label format in the environment
            of signaling or routing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    That's a good point. It is fine for me to start considering, as a
    whole,  aspects such as path computation, routing and signalling.
    And you are right that only defining the label without further
    consideration seems pointless. <br>
    <br>
    I guess my main point was that, at least for me, I still have some
    concerns regarding data plane aspects that I would like to clarify.
    Maybe not in the basic flex-grid technology / concept itself, but in
    the network as a whole. For example, should we consider the
    equivalent of wavelength converters for elastic frequency slots or
    slices?. Is a "Flexi" Switch Capable LSP bounded by O/E/O
    conversions and remains only on the optical domain ? should we still
    work under the unbrella of LSC or define a new switching layer?
    what's the role of modulation formats, transceivers, and so on? -
    Hussain Iftekhar draft
    (<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hussain-ccamp-super-channel-label-00">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hussain-ccamp-super-channel-label-00</a>)
    considers that a label can correspond to several, non-necessary
    contiguous basic slots thus Hussain's and Adrian-Yao's drafts differ
    on the basic concept of a switchable entity. As you may guess, I
    don't have answers for these... :-) a common framework would be
    useful, nothing more.<br>
     <br>
    Of course, this does not preclude to start work on CCAMP with an
    initial set of assumptions, mainly as an extended WSON, call it, for
    example, SSON :)  I would like, by no means, to object to work on
    this area :D<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:F82A4B6D50F9464B8EBA55651F541CF825C831A6@SZXEML520-MBX.china.huawei.com"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
            lang="EN-US">Let's focus on the tech stuff.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
            lang="EN-US">I have some questions from your comments,
            especially from your penultimate paragraph of the first
            point.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>  <br>
            </o:p></span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:F82A4B6D50F9464B8EBA55651F541CF825C831A6@SZXEML520-MBX.china.huawei.com"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
            lang="EN-US">What is resource in the Flex-Grid? I think the
            answer is “Frequency” or “Spectrum”. How much resource
            should be reserved? What information should be based on when
            each node reserves the resource? What is the role of the
            Traffic Parameters? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    I agree with yout that the controled resource is the optical
    spectrum. The problem I see is that depending on other factors such
    as FECs, modulation formats and related, I think that there is not a
    one to one relationship between data rates and optical spectrum,
    depending on the choice of modulation format (a CBR data rate of 40
    Gbps could end-up requiring e.g. 40 GHz or less?). Additionally,
    Yao's example showing that a given client of 40 Gbps sent over a
    flexi LSP which croses O/E/O nodes could end up "consuming"
    different "frequency slices" at each side of the O/E/O is a good one
    (I tend to think that developing  data plane technologies such as
    OFDM and similar will have an important role in flexi-nets).<br>
    <br>
    This problem does not seem to occur in, say, packet switched
    networks in the sense that the controled resource (link bandwidth)
    and the traffic characterization are in the same "units" and the
    traffic trunk or aggregate is based on the statistical /
    asynchronous multiplexing with seemingly well defined rules.<br>
    <br>
    To answer your question, the resource to be reserved is the optrical
    spectrum, which can be translated to a unsigned integer &gt; 0 (m)
    of consecutive basic slots of a given, known in advance, size. My
    first impression is that, if a node knows m (and of course, grid, CS
    and n), it has  the basic information to  do the actual reservation
    and the cross-connect. This does not preclude that other information
    (notably TSPEC) could be used (locally, or globaly depending on
    aspects such as continuity constraint, transparency ...) to deduce m
    for a given client signal. A basic example can be given in the case
    of a centralized PCE that does the Routing, modulation, FEC
    assignment, and indicates the optical spectrum in GHz and then a
    distributed signaling performs the Spectrum Assignment (SA), where
    RSVP can collect the free slots and the egress node, knowing all the
    LSP parameters, can compute m and start the reservation upstream
    with m encoded in the label. This procedure can be repeated any time
    there is a O/E/O conversion (your requirement drafts refers to this
    as R+SA if I am not mistaken).<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:F82A4B6D50F9464B8EBA55651F541CF825C831A6@SZXEML520-MBX.china.huawei.com"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
            lang="EN-US">So, could you clarify what information should
            be carried in the Traffic Parameters?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    I am sorry I don't have exact, concrete answers, just food for
    thoughts and rough ideas. To some extent I had this question even in
    WSON. What the purpose of say, a token-bucket TSPEC / FLOWSPEC in
    WSON? It is advised to have just peak rate? Isn't the actual
    reserved element a wavelength, regardless of the actual client
    signal?<br>
    My "preliminary" view is that the TSPEC could contain, as a bare
    minimum, the data rate (in Gbps) of the client signal which is
    required to deduce "m". This information can be used, say, by a PCE
    to deduce the optical spectrum (in GHz), knowing the modulation
    format selected for the path,  based on physical impairments,
    physical distance, OSNR / SER requirements and so on. It follows
    that those parameters could be conveyed in the "extended" TSPEC:
    optical spectrum, FEC, modulation format, helping WA / SA that
    happens at each regeneration point to deduce "m" which is encoded in
    the label for each "transparent" segment.<br>
    <br>
    Thank you for the insightful question. Your view on this issue would
    be very useful to come up to some consensus on what would be the
    information and encoding in the TSPEC.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    Thanks and best regards<br>
    Ramon<br>
  </body>
</html>

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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] New I-D for Flexi-grid labels
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El 19/10/2011 9:31, Zhangfatai escribió:
>
> Hi Fei,
>
> Now, people can understand that your proposal (ie., bit rate in the 
> Traffic Parameters) is not feasible, because each node cannot figure 
> out how much spectrum bandwidth needs to be reserved after you clarified.
>
> So, the spectrum width must be carried in the Traffic Parameters, 
> because the signaling is used to reserve the spectrum and it is 
> straightforward to carry the amount of the spectrum to be reserved.
>

Dear Fatai,

You raise a valid and good point, and I understand your arguments. By 
decoupling the "m" parameter and adding it to the TSPEC, it is easier to 
deduce the spectrum slice to reserve. The mapping TSPEC-FLOWSPEC in 
diret and this does not require the node to be aware of more complex 
details such as the modulation format, FECs, i.e. the  relationship 
between actual data rates (bps) and spectrum (Hz), which, as you know, 
is not a simple mapping.  I could agree to the approach if the WG 
decides it is indeed the best alternative.

However, thinking about your suggested approach, I wonder about 
subsequent questions, which I add here to favor constructive discussion:

- How would a given intermediate LSR update the link status via OSPF-TE 
in what concerns attributes such as unreserved bandwidth per priority 
once a reservation is succesful ?
   Doesn't a node need also (some) of such details ? It is probably too 
early to discuss routing, and it may be that by disseminating a bitmap 
encoded slot status is enough and somehow "obsoletes" bandwidth in terms 
of "bytes / second".
   Note that I don't know either for both approaches :-) and I may just 
be missing something, just wondering wheter the nodes will need more 
information anyway and the simplicity of the approach is lost in the 
sense that, at some point, the mapping Hz <-> bps is needed.

  Another option I have considered when thinking about this is that 
OSPF-TE no longer disseminates unreserved bandwitdh per priority in the 
Link TLV but unreserved spectrum per priority in (Hz) plus 
wavelength/slot availability.


- If the elastic LSP crosses an O/E/O, in which the node uses different 
slot count m1 and m2 for both sides, that would mean that the 
SENDER_TSPEC in the sender descriptor and the FLOWSPEC in the flow 
descriptor need to change at those "regeneration" points. If we agree 
that those objects can be changed (at worst case at every hop), then I 
have no other objection. Note that the same problem would appear if the 
FEC / modulation format is encoded in the TSPEC.

In short, probably an interesting approach to consider, in line with 
what you propose, is that the control plane in an elastic-enabled 
network no longer considers data rates, but manages all resources (at 
routing, path computation and signalling) in terms of optical spectrum,  
that is, TSPEC has m, PCEP is extended to include such TSPEC, OSPF-TE... 
etc  leaving the actual client mapping / adaptation at the edges of the 
network, at the endpoint / transceiver level.

Your comments on this are most welcome,

Thanks and best regards
Ramon



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    El 19/10/2011 9:31, Zhangfatai escribió:
    <blockquote
cite="mid:F82A4B6D50F9464B8EBA55651F541CF825C84B85@SZXEML520-MBX.china.huawei.com"
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
            lang="EN-US">Hi Fei,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <span
          style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
          lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
            lang="EN-US">Now, people can understand that your proposal
            (ie., bit rate in the Traffic Parameters) is not feasible,
            because each node cannot figure out how much spectrum
            bandwidth needs to be reserved after you clarified.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
            lang="EN-US">So, the spectrum width must be carried in the
            Traffic Parameters, because the signaling is used to reserve
            the spectrum and it is straightforward to carry the amount
            of the spectrum to be reserved.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Dear Fatai,<br>
    <br>
    You raise a valid and good point, and I understand your arguments.
    By decoupling the "m" parameter and adding it to the TSPEC, it is
    easier to deduce the spectrum slice to reserve. The mapping
    TSPEC-FLOWSPEC in diret and this does not require the node to be
    aware of more complex details such as the modulation format, FECs,
    i.e. the  relationship between actual data rates (bps) and spectrum
    (Hz), which, as you know, is not a simple mapping.  I could agree to
    the approach if the WG decides it is indeed the best alternative.<br>
    <br>
    However, thinking about your suggested approach, I wonder about
    subsequent questions, which I add here to favor constructive
    discussion:<br>
    <br>
    - How would a given intermediate LSR update the link status via
    OSPF-TE in what concerns attributes such as unreserved bandwidth per
    priority once a reservation is succesful ? <br>
      Doesn't a node need also (some) of such details ? It is probably
    too early to discuss routing, and it may be that by disseminating a
    bitmap encoded slot status is enough and somehow "obsoletes"
    bandwidth in terms of "bytes / second".<br>
      Note that I don't know either for both approaches :-) and I may
    just be missing something, just wondering wheter the nodes will need
    more information anyway and the simplicity of the approach is lost
    in the sense that, at some point, the mapping Hz &lt;-&gt; bps is
    needed.<br>
    <br>
     Another option I have considered when thinking about this is that
    OSPF-TE no longer disseminates unreserved bandwitdh per priority in
    the Link TLV but unreserved spectrum per priority in (Hz) plus
    wavelength/slot availability. <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    - If the elastic LSP crosses an O/E/O, in which the node uses
    different slot count m1 and m2 for both sides, that would mean that
    the SENDER_TSPEC in the sender descriptor and the FLOWSPEC in the
    flow descriptor need to change at those "regeneration" points. If we
    agree that those objects can be changed (at worst case at every
    hop), then I have no other objection. Note that the same problem
    would appear if the FEC / modulation format is encoded in the TSPEC.<br>
    <br>
    In short, probably an interesting approach to consider, in line with
    what you propose, is that the control plane in an elastic-enabled
    network no longer considers data rates, but manages all resources
    (at routing, path computation and signalling) in terms of optical
    spectrum,  that is, TSPEC has m, PCEP is extended to include such
    TSPEC, OSPF-TE... etc  leaving the actual client mapping /
    adaptation at the edges of the network, at the endpoint /
    transceiver level.<br>
    <br>
    Your comments on this are most welcome, <br>
    <br>
    Thanks and best regards<br>
    Ramon<br>
    <br>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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From Alan.Davey@metaswitch.com  Wed Oct 19 05:47:36 2011
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From: Alan Davey <Alan.Davey@metaswitch.com>
To: "ccamp@ietf.org" <ccamp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Question on RFC6107, Procedures for Dynamically Signaled Hierarchical Label Switched Paths
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Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 12:47:29 +0000
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Subject: [CCAMP] Question on RFC6107, Procedures for Dynamically Signaled Hierarchical Label Switched Paths
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Folks

I have a question on RFC6107; is it permitted to have more than one Target =
IGP Identification TLV in a single LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID object?

I cannot find a definitive statement in the RFC as to whether or not multip=
le Target IGP Identification TLVs are permitted in a single object.  Howeve=
r, I think that this should NOT be permitted.

My thinking is as follows.

-          Section 3.4 states that "It is possible that an LSP will be used=
 to offer capacity and connectivity to multiple other networks.  In this ca=
se, multiple instances of the LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID object are permitted =
in the same Path and Resv messages."

-          My reading of this is that if multiple Target IGP Identification=
 TLVs are required then they should each appear in a separate LSP_TUNNEL_IN=
TERFACE_ID object.

-          However, if multiple Target IGP Identification TLVs are permitte=
d in a single LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID object then there are two protocol co=
nstructs with the same meaning, which could lead to interoperability proble=
ms.

-          Therefore RFC6107 should state that at most one Target IGP Ident=
ification TLV may appear in a single LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID object, but I =
cannot find any such statement.

Please let me know what you think.

Thanks
Alan Davey


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Folks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have a question on RFC6107; is it permitted to hav=
e more than one Target IGP Identification TLV in a single LSP_TUNNEL_INTERF=
ACE_ID object?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I cannot find a definitive statement in the RFC as t=
o whether or not multiple Target IGP Identification TLVs are permitted in a=
 single object.&nbsp; However, I think that this should NOT be permitted.<o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">My thinking is as follows.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=
=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>Section 3.4 states that &#8220;It is possible that =
an LSP will be used to offer capacity and connectivity to multiple other ne=
tworks.&nbsp; In this case, multiple instances of the LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_=
ID object are permitted in the same Path and
 Resv messages.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=
=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>My reading of this is that if multiple Target IGP I=
dentification TLVs are required then they should each appear in a separate =
LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID object.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=
=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>However, if multiple Target IGP Identification TLVs=
 are permitted in a single LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID object then there are tw=
o protocol constructs with the same meaning, which could lead to interopera=
bility problems.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=
=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>Therefore RFC6107 should state that at most one Tar=
get IGP Identification TLV may appear in a single LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID o=
bject, but I cannot find any such statement.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Please let me know what you think.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Alan Davey<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
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--_000_C2EE31C852049D499842B19FC01C0804165C87F6ENFICSMBX1datco_--

From jon.harrison@metaswitch.com  Thu Oct 20 00:22:34 2011
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From: Jonathan Harrison <jon.harrison@metaswitch.com>
To: Greg Bernstein <gregb@grotto-networking.com>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Update:  draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-05
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Update:  draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-05
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Hi Greg,

I've got a question on draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-05 that I=
 hope you can answer.  The description of LABEL_RANGE1 is as follows.

  "In this case the accompanying MaxLabelRange indicates the maximum=20
   range of the labels. The corresponding label set is used to indicate=20
   the overall label range. Specific center label information can be=20
   obtained from dynamic label in use information. It is assumed that=20
   both center label and range tuning can be done without causing faults=20
   to existing signals."

>From this, it isn't entirely clear to me what labels may or may not be used=
 on a port advertising this type of Port Label Restriction - is it just the=
 set of labels in the label set field?  Would it be possible for you to add=
 an example in Appendix A to give an example of how LABEL_RANGE1 might be u=
sed (and how the specific center label information would be obtained from t=
he dynamic label in use information)?

Thanks,
Jon


-----Original Message-----
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of G=
reg Bernstein
Sent: 25 May 2011 19:03
To: ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: [CCAMP] Update: draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-05

Hi CCAMPers interested in WSON, the previous draft (version 04) of=20
"General Network Element Constraint Encoding for GMPLS Controlled=20
Networks" was expiring so we needed to refresh with a new version. There=20
are no changes technical or otherwise in the document.

This document and four other WSON documents are ready for last call but=20
were deferred pending a write up from Pierre Peloso concerning some type=20
of alternative information model and encoding. In the CCAMP Prague=20
meeting minutes (http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/80/minutes/ccamp.htm)=20
there was a commitment to resolve this issue quickly. It has now been=20
two months.  On April 2 we furnished an analysis of what we though the=20
scheme proposed by Peloso was and demonstrated that the proposed=20
increase in complexity might save 10-20 bytes, an insignificant amount.

Was an alternate information/encoding still being pursued by Peloso or=20
others? If so when can we see it? Or can we finally move these documents=20
into last call.

Best Regards

Greg

--=20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D
Dr Greg Bernstein, Grotto Networking (510) 573-2237


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From jon.harrison@metaswitch.com  Thu Oct 20 00:23:35 2011
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From: Jonathan Harrison <jon.harrison@metaswitch.com>
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Hi authors,

I don't know if you've been following the thread below, but the discussion =
appears to have some relevance to draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraint=
s-ospf-te-02.

The discussion below is about the Link TLV defined in RFC 3630.  The proble=
m is that RFC 3630 is not clear whether information about a single link can=
 be spread across more than one Link TLV.  Significantly, RFC 3630 does not=
 provide any rules as to how an OSPF implementation should generate multipl=
e TE link TLVs for the same link.  Similarly, it does not indicate how an O=
SPF implementation should handle multiple received Link TLVs for the same l=
ink.  For example, if an OSPF implementation receives two Link TLVs, both o=
f which have the same link type and link ID sub-TLVs, but different values =
for the Unreserved bandwidth sub-TLV, what should it do?

In summary, the behavior of an OSPF implementation receiving multiple Link =
TLVs for the same link is not well defined.  I suspect that most OSPF imple=
mentations assume that there is at most one Link TLV for each link.  Hence =
the suggestion of section 5 of draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-o=
spf-te-02 for using multiple Link TLVs is likely to lead to interoperabilit=
y problems.

The solution might be to define a new TLV type (Generic Link TLV?) for dist=
ributing the Port Label Restrictions, Available Labels and Available Shared=
 Backup Label sub-TLVs in OSPF, along with a clear description of its use. =
 In particular, we need the following.

-       A clear statement that multiple TLVs are allowed for the same link.

-       Rules specifying how sub-TLVs can be distributed across the multipl=
e TLVs (e.g. there must be at most one Available Labels sub-TLV across all =
TLVs for the same link).

-       Rules specifying how multiple TLVs should be interpreted.  (This sh=
ould be simple if the rules for building the TLVs are well defined.)

Let me know what you think.

Thanks,
Jon




-----Original Message-----
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of L=
eeyoung
Sent: 10 October 2011 17:36
To: Andrea Zanardi
Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility=
-ospf-06.txt



Hi Andrea,



I see your point more clearly. You are concerned about the interoperability=
 issue beyond the specification of the protocol to ensure two implementatio=
ns should interoperate each other. To that end, please propose some text. T=
hanks.



Best Regards,

Young



-----Original Message-----

From: Andrea Zanardi [mailto:andrea.zanardi@create-net.org]

Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 11:53 AM

To: Leeyoung

Cc: ccamp@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility=
-ospf-06.txt



Hi Young,



I think I clarified what I meant in my reply to Acee comments.



Anyway, my original comments were related to:



a.  the possibility of sending a TE Link LSA update (same ID, new sequence =
number)

     without some sub-TLVs if their value is unchanged, as I understood whe=
n you wrote



     "All other sub-TLV are optional and may occur at most once

      (when there are enough changes from the previous period that deserve =
an update)

      and _need not_ be included in the TE Link TLV when there is no need f=
or updating."



    (but correct me if I misunderstood your sentence)



    This clearly can't work due to how the TE DB synchronization works.



    Note that also creating a new LSA (new ID) with only the changed sub-TL=
Vs doesn't

    work, as you will have two different values for the same sub-TLV

    (as the old LSA and the new LSA are both present in the TE DB)



    I read the "may occur at least once" in RFC 3630 as:

    "it may be omitted if it does not apply to the link";

    but if it applies, it must be present in all updates

    (unless you want to clear its value)





b. the fact that RFC 3630 allows the possibility of splitting the

    set of sub-TLVs of a TE Link in different LSAs (different IDs)

    [the implementation I checked doesn't support this scenario]



    This could be a matter of interpretation; but as it's not explicitly

    stated, the simplest interpretation is usually the one accepted.



I perfectly agree that splitting a set of attributes related to

a 'logical' instance in two or more different LSAs is a viable solution

(as far as you keep the subsets disjoint and the support for this

solution is explicitly requested; and this is somehow stated

in the draft in Chap. 3.2.1).



Even if, in my opinion, would be preferable to have some rule

defined; especially if the reason for the splitting is the dynamics

of the updates and not just the size.



Sorry if there has been any misunderstanding.



Regards

Andrea





On 10/08/2011 12:46 AM, Leeyoung wrote:

> Hi Andrea,

>

> Sorry for my late response to your questions. Please see in-line for my c=
omments. Thanks.

>

> Young

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Andrea Zanardi [mailto:andrea.zanardi@create-net.org]

> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 9:10 AM

> To: Leeyoung

> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org

> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibili=
ty-ospf-06.txt

>

> Hi Young,

>

> with respect to the TE DB management of missing sub-TLVs in LSA updates,

> I checked the behavior of a commercial OSPF-TE implementation.

>

> YOUNG>>  Here I assumed the LSAs are two different LSAs (identified by th=
e LSA ID).

>

> The point is that, if the TE DB is the set of LSAs, that's how it works

> as the TE DB contains only the latest version of an LSA instance

> and you can not merge the content of different LSA versions

> (you could keep an internal model for the links with their attributes

> updated independently, but when two neighbors synchronize their DB,

> they synchronize the LSA set, not the internal models).

>

> YOUNG>>  Here is a bit confusing. The TE DB synchronization process check=
s the same LSA and the sequence number (which you are referring as the vers=
ion of an LSA instance). When the node identifies the same LSA with differe=
nt sequence number, then it flushes the LSA with the lower sequence number.=
 But the TE DB synch process does not check each other for different LSAs (=
which is identified by the LSA ID).

>

>

>

> With respect to RFC 3630, it states:

>

>    2.4.2.  Link TLV

>

>       The Link TLV describes a single link.

>

> I read 'describes' as 'fully describes' (not 'partially describes');

> so I don't see where it supports/suggests the division of the attributes =
on multiple

> LSA instances and that's why I think that multiple LSA instances for the

> same link is not supported by current implementations.

>

> YOUNG>>  RFC3630 differentiates the mandatory element from other entities=
 that can appear "at most" once.

> This is from RFC 3630 Section 2.4.2:

>

>     The Link Type and Link ID sub-TLVs are mandatory, i.e., must appear

>     exactly once.  All other sub-TLVs defined here may occur at most

>     once.  These restrictions need not apply to future sub-TLVs.

>     Unrecognized sub-TLVs are ignored.

>

> YOUNG>>  It does not mandate other sub-TLVs to appear exactly once; it ra=
ther says it may occur "at most once" -- sound like to me

> YOUNG>>  this is an optional element.

>

> It's a possible implementation and it's fine to suggest it for other top =
level TLVs,

> but it's not the one defined by RFC 3630 for TE Links, in my opinion.

>

> My point is in avoiding ambiguities: if the support for multiple LSA inst=
ances for the

> same entity top TLV is requested, it should be explicitly stated as manda=
tory

> (possibly providing explicit rules for the subdivision, as in Chap. 3 of =
the draft).

>

>

> YOUNG>>  When you have different sub-sets of TLV's to be packaged under t=
he OPSF TE LSA, you can use a different LSA ID from the previously used one=
 to avoid ambiguities. Then these are simply two different LSAs and would n=
ot confuse the TE DB sync process as well as flooding process.

>

> Regards,

> Andrea

>

> On 10/03/2011 09:34 PM, Leeyoung wrote:

>> Hi Andrea,

>>

>> Thanks for your interest and input to this issue.

>>

>> My overall point was that the current GMPLS TE LSA (per RFC 3630) does n=
ot specify detail implementations as to how to divide up the TE Link TLVs i=
nto static vs. dynamic nor how to use multiple TE LSAs. The current WSON do=
cument follows a similar document philosophy with the GMPLS predecessor.

>>

>> Regarding your point on how the TE DB works in regard to missing sub-TLV=
s are deleted seems to me a particular implementation, which is most simpli=
stic in nature.

>>

>> Best Regards,

>> Young

>>

>> -----Original Message-----

>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf O=
f Andrea Zanardi

>> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 9:14 AM

>> To: Leeyoung

>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org

>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibil=
ity-ospf-06.txt

>>

>> Hi Young,

>>

>> I was following the discussion and I have a doubt about

>> your example related to the TE Link TLV.

>>

>> It's true that the attributes sub-TLV are not mandatory per RFC 3630,

>> but I don't think that means that they can be not included in an LSA upd=
ate

>> if unchanged (implying that the previous value persists).

>>

>> As for my understanding of how OSPF-TE works, the managed TE DB entity i=
s the LSA.

>> When an LSA update is processed, the previous version is deleted from th=
e TE DB

>> and it is replaced by the new one: link attributes related to missing su=
b-TLV are

>> deleted, so they must be present even if unchanged.

>>

>> In theory, the set of link attributes could be statically divided

>> in two different LSAs instances (updated independently),

>> but I don't think current implementations handle this scenario

>> (also because, in my opinion, it's not suggested by RFC 3630 and

>>     it gives no rule on how to divide them).

>>

>> But I ask to the mailing list if this is the correct interpretation.

>>

>> Regards,

>> Andrea

>>

>> On 09/30/2011 11:16 PM, Leeyoung wrote:

>>> Hi Pierre,

>>>

>>> I got your point. Let me ask you this question. In the current GMPLS OS=
PF TE Link TLV are defined under Opaque TE LSA with the following attribute=
s:

>>>

>>> - TE Metric

>>> - max B/W

>>> - max reservable b/w

>>> - unreserved b/w

>>> - Admin Group

>>> - Link Protection Type

>>> - SRLG

>>> - ISCD

>>> - etc.

>>>

>>> And these are a mixture of static and dynamic information and yet they =
are assembled together as one TE Link TLV. For instance the ISCD is quite s=
imilar to Resource Block Info in that it does not change often unless there=
 are new elements added in the node or configuration changes and yet it is =
packaged together with other dynamic information.

>>>

>>> Why?

>>>

>>> There are many ways to keep static/unchanged information from being flo=
oded. Only the Link Type and Link ID which are mandatory in the TE Link TLV=
 per RFC3630. All other sub-TLV are optional and may occur at most once (wh=
en there are enough changes from the previous period that deserve an update=
) and need not be included in the TE Link TLV when there is no need for upd=
ating.

>>>

>>> I really don't see the need for a separate top-level TLV and/or a separ=
ate LSA for the Resource Block information.

>>>

>>> Regards,

>>> Young

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> -----Original Message-----

>>> From: PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) [mailto:pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.com]

>>> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 9:39 AM

>>> To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org

>>> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibi=
lity-ospf-06.txt

>>>

>>> Hi Young,

>>>

>>> I understand the content of your answer, but I'm not satisfied with it.

>>> My concern deals with providing a unique reading/interpretation of the =
OSPF-TE extensions.

>>> We would like to make sure that any implementation complying to the dra=
fts would provide the same LSAs when applied to the same network.

>>> With this perspective in mind, we wish to get drafts with sufficient do=
cumentation to make sure the LSA design process to be depicted, by design r=
ules.

>>>

>>> Hence the content of your answer leaving me the "opportunity to do as I=
 wish", is not pleasing me, I would rather have strict rules, and discussio=
ns with the WG on the design of those.

>>> That is why a first design rule, we could agree on is: to gather the Re=
source Block Information TLVs inside a dedicated LSA, possibly with a dedic=
ated top-level TLV (which in my mind allows to enforce this design rule).

>>>

>>> Regards,

>>>

>>> - Pierre

>>>

>>> -----Message d'origine-----

>>> De : Leeyoung [mailto:leeyoung@huawei.com]

>>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 28 septembre 2011 00:06

>>> =C0 : PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE); ccamp@ietf.org

>>> Objet : RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibil=
ity-ospf-06.txt

>>>

>>> Hi Pierre,

>>>

>>> Please see-inline for my reply to your first point.

>>>

>>> Regards,

>>> Young

>>>

>>> -----Original Message-----

>>> From: PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) [mailto:pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.com]

>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 3:28 AM

>>> To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org

>>> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibi=
lity-ospf-06.txt

>>>

>>> Hi Young, and CCAMPers,

>>>

>>> I was off the mailing lists for the last two weeks and being back I not=
ice a lot of exchanges, which I'm very glad of.

>>> I've also noticed many drafts have been updated.

>>> Concerning this specific draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-osp=
f-06, I wanted to comment section 3.

>>> Back in Quebec, I expressed my point of view (shared with Cyril, Julien=
 and Giovanni) that current drafts were lacking guidance regarding the way =
to design LSAs that were to depict an WSON node with OEOs.

>>> This section 3 provides additional material to help designing the LSA.

>>> I would like to know whether authors are willing to pursue further in t=
his direction, which is to my mind a real corner stone, that would help eve=
ryone agree on a solution.

>>> A first point could concern the Resource Block Information (reminder:<R=
esourceBlockInfo>    ::=3D ([<ResourceSet>]<InputConstraints>    <Processin=
gCapabilities>    <OutputConstraints>):

>>>         We all agree that these information are static, that we should =
not replicate this TLV whatever the number not the layout of OEO boards of =
a given type.

>>> Then, we could dedicate a specific independant flooding entity. This wo=
uld be defined once for all, and that would not leave room to different int=
erpretations.

>>> What about this first point?

>>>

>>> YOUNG>>    If I understand you correctly, what you are saying is since =
the Resource Block Info sub-TLV is very static in nature, advertisement of =
this sub-TLV should be treated differently from the rest of static-TLVs (wh=
ich may change over time). Is this what you are saying?

>>>

>>> If my interpretation of your comment is correct,

>>>

>>> - The current mechanism allows what you want: Please see the first para=
graph in Section 3.2

>>>       "In the highly unlikely event that a WSON sub-TLV by itself would

>>>       result in an LSA exceeding the MTU, all five WSON specific sub-TL=
Vs

>>>       in this document provide mechanisms that allow them to be subdivi=
ded

>>>       into smaller sub-TLVs that can be sent in separate OSPF TE LSAs."

>>>

>>> According to this clause, you can separate the Resource Block Info Sub-=
TLV as the sole entry defined in the Optical Node property TLV in a separat=
e TE LSA from the rest if you will. Nothing prevents this particular way of=
 packaging. (Isn't this what you meant "a specific independent flooding ent=
ity"?)

>>>

>>> - Please let me know if this explanation satisfies you. Thanks --- Youn=
g

>>>

>>> Regards,

>>>

>>> Pierre

>>>

>>> -----Message d'origine-----

>>> De : ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] De la part =
de Leeyoung Envoy=E9 : jeudi 15 septembre 2011 21:59 =C0 : ccamp@ietf.org O=
bjet : Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-o=
spf-06.txt

>>>

>>> Hi all,

>>>

>>> After 05 version publication, Acee provided a number of valuable commen=
ts and suggestions. This revision (06) reflects those changes. Please note =
the following updates:

>>>

>>> - Change the title of the draft to "GMPLS OSPF Enhancement..." from "OS=
PF Enhancement..." to make sure the changes apply to the GMPLS OSPF rather =
than the base OSPF.

>>>

>>> - Add specific OSPF procedures on how sub-TLVs are packaged per [RFC363=
0] and editorial change including avoiding "multiple instances of TE LSA" t=
o "multiple TE LSAs".

>>>

>>> Your comments are always appreciated. Thanks.

>>>

>>> Best Regards.

>>> Young

>>>

>>>

>>> -----Original Message-----

>>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of internet-drafts@ietf.org

>>> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 2:48 PM

>>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org

>>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org

>>> Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility=
-ospf-06.txt

>>>

>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dire=
ctories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Pl=
ane Working Group of the IETF.

>>>

>>>   Title           : GMPLS OSPF Enhancement for Signal and Network Eleme=
nt Compatibility for Wavelength Switched Optical Networks

>>>   Author(s)       : Young Lee

>>>                              Greg M. Bernstein

>>>   Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.=
txt

>>>   Pages           : 14

>>>   Date            : 2011-09-15

>>>

>>>       This document provides GMPLS OSPF routing enhancements to support

>>>       signal compatibility constraints associated with WSON network

>>>       elements. These routing enhancements are required in common optic=
al

>>>       or hybrid electro-optical networks where not all of the optical

>>>       signals in the network are compatible with all network elements

>>>       participating in the network.

>>>

>>>       This compatibility constraint model is applicable to common optic=
al

>>>       or hybrid electro optical systems such as OEO switches, regenerat=
ors,

>>>       and wavelength converters since such systems can be limited to

>>>       processing only certain types of WSON signals.

>>>





--

--------------------------------------------------------

Andrea Zanardi

CREATE-NET

Engineering & Fast Prototyping (ENGINE) Area

Senior Engineer

Via alla Cascata 56/D - 38123 Povo Trento (Italy)

e-mail: andrea.zanardi@create-net.org

Tel: (+39) 0461 408400 - interno/extension 1407

Mobile: (+39) 340 0011837

Fax: (+39) 0461 421157

Skype: zanardi_andrea

www.create-net.org

--------------------------------------------------------



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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Hi authors,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I don&#8217;t know if you&#8217;ve been f=
ollowing the thread below, but the discussion appears to have some relevanc=
e to draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-02.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">The discussion below is about the Link TL=
V defined in RFC 3630.&nbsp; The problem is that RFC 3630 is not clear whet=
her information about a single link can be spread across more
 than one Link TLV.&nbsp; Significantly, RFC 3630 does not provide any rule=
s as to how an OSPF implementation should generate multiple TE link TLVs fo=
r the same link.&nbsp; Similarly, it does not indicate how an OSPF implemen=
tation should handle multiple received Link
 TLVs for the same link.&nbsp; For example, if an OSPF implementation recei=
ves two Link TLVs, both of which have the same link type and link ID sub-TL=
Vs, but different values for the Unreserved bandwidth sub-TLV, what should =
it do?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">In summary, the behavior of an OSPF imple=
mentation receiving multiple Link TLVs for the same link is not well define=
d.&nbsp; I suspect that most OSPF implementations assume that
 there is at most one Link TLV for each link.&nbsp; Hence the suggestion of=
 section 5 of draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-02 for usi=
ng multiple Link TLVs is likely to lead to interoperability problems.<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">The solution might be to define a new TLV=
 type (Generic Link TLV?) for distributing the Port Label Restrictions, Ava=
ilable Labels and Available Shared Backup Label sub-TLVs
 in OSPF, along with a clear description of its use.&nbsp; In particular, w=
e need the following.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<=
span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">A clear statement that multiple T=
LVs are allowed for the same link.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<=
span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Rules specifying how sub-TLVs can=
 be distributed across the multiple TLVs (e.g. there must be at most one Av=
ailable Labels sub-TLV across all TLVs for the same link).<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<=
span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Rules specifying how multiple TLV=
s should be interpreted.&nbsp; (This should be simple if the rules for buil=
ding the TLVs are well defined.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Let me know what you think.<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Jon<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">-----Original Message-----<b=
r>
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of L=
eeyoung<br>
Sent: 10 October 2011 17:36<br>
To: Andrea Zanardi<br>
Cc: ccamp@ietf.org<br>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility=
-ospf-06.txt</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Hi Andrea,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">I see your point more clearly. You are concerned =
about the interoperability issue beyond the specification of the protocol t=
o ensure two implementations should interoperate each other. To that end, p=
lease propose some text. Thanks.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Best Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Young<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">From: Andrea Zanardi [mailto:andrea.zanardi@creat=
e-net.org]
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 11:53 AM<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">To: Leeyoung<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Cc: ccamp@ietf.org<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp=
-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Hi Young,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">I think I clarified what I meant in my reply to A=
cee comments.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Anyway, my original comments were related to:<o:p=
></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">a.&nbsp; the possibility of sending a TE Link LSA=
 update (same ID, new sequence number)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; without some sub-TLVs if=
 their value is unchanged, as I understood when you wrote<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &quot;All other sub-TLV =
are optional and may occur at most once<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (when there are en=
ough changes from the previous period that deserve an update)<o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and _need not_ be =
included in the TE Link TLV when there is no need for updating.&quot;<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (but correct me if I misunders=
tood your sentence)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This clearly can't work due to=
 how the TE DB synchronization works.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Note that also creating a new =
LSA (new ID) with only the changed sub-TLVs doesn't<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; work, as you will have two dif=
ferent values for the same sub-TLV<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (as the old LSA and the new LS=
A are both present in the TE DB)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I read the &quot;may occur at =
least once&quot; in RFC 3630 as:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &quot;it may be omitted if it =
does not apply to the link&quot;;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; but if it applies, it must be =
present in all updates<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (unless you want to clear its =
value)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">b. the fact that RFC 3630 allows the possibility =
of splitting the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; set of sub-TLVs of a TE Link i=
n different LSAs (different IDs)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [the implementation I checked =
doesn't support this scenario]<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This could be a matter of inte=
rpretation; but as it's not explicitly<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; stated, the simplest interpret=
ation is usually the one accepted.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">I perfectly agree that splitting a set of attribu=
tes related to<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">a 'logical' instance in two or more different LSA=
s is a viable solution<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">(as far as you keep the subsets disjoint and the =
support for this<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">solution is explicitly requested; and this is som=
ehow stated<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">in the draft in Chap. 3.2.1).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Even if, in my opinion, would be preferable to ha=
ve some rule<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">defined; especially if the reason for the splitti=
ng is the dynamics<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">of the updates and not just the size.<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Sorry if there has been any misunderstanding.<o:p=
></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Regards<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Andrea<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">On 10/08/2011 12:46 AM, Leeyoung wrote:<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; Hi Andrea,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; Sorry for my late response to your questions=
. Please see in-line for my comments. Thanks.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; Young<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; From: Andrea Zanardi [mailto:andrea.zanardi@=
create-net.org]<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 9:10 AM<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; To: Leeyoung<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; Cc: ccamp@ietf.org<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-=
ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; Hi Young,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; with respect to the TE DB management of miss=
ing sub-TLVs in LSA updates,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; I checked the behavior of a commercial OSPF-=
TE implementation.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; YOUNG&gt;&gt;&nbsp; Here I assumed the LSAs =
are two different LSAs (identified by the LSA ID).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; The point is that, if the TE DB is the set o=
f LSAs, that's how it works<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; as the TE DB contains only the latest versio=
n of an LSA instance<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; and you can not merge the content of differe=
nt LSA versions<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; (you could keep an internal model for the li=
nks with their attributes<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; updated independently, but when two neighbor=
s synchronize their DB,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; they synchronize the LSA set, not the intern=
al models).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; YOUNG&gt;&gt;&nbsp; Here is a bit confusing.=
 The TE DB synchronization process checks the same LSA and the sequence num=
ber (which you are referring as the version of an LSA instance). When the n=
ode identifies the same LSA with different sequence
 number, then it flushes the LSA with the lower sequence number. But the TE=
 DB synch process does not check each other for different LSAs (which is id=
entified by the LSA ID).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; With respect to RFC 3630, it states:<o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2.4.2.&nbsp; Link TLV<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The Link=
 TLV describes a single link.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; I read 'describes' as 'fully describes' (not=
 'partially describes');<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; so I don't see where it supports/suggests th=
e division of the attributes on multiple<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; LSA instances and that's why I think that mu=
ltiple LSA instances for the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; same link is not supported by current implem=
entations.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; YOUNG&gt;&gt;&nbsp; RFC3630 differentiates t=
he mandatory element from other entities that can appear &quot;at most&quot=
; once.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; This is from RFC 3630 Section 2.4.2:<o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The Link Type and Li=
nk ID sub-TLVs are mandatory, i.e., must appear<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; exactly once.&nbsp; =
All other sub-TLVs defined here may occur at most<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; once.&nbsp; These re=
strictions need not apply to future sub-TLVs.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Unrecognized sub-TLV=
s are ignored.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; YOUNG&gt;&gt;&nbsp; It does not mandate othe=
r sub-TLVs to appear exactly once; it rather says it may occur &quot;at mos=
t once&quot; -- sound like to me<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; YOUNG&gt;&gt;&nbsp; this is an optional elem=
ent.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; It's a possible implementation and it's fine=
 to suggest it for other top level TLVs,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; but it's not the one defined by RFC 3630 for=
 TE Links, in my opinion.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; My point is in avoiding ambiguities: if the =
support for multiple LSA instances for the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; same entity top TLV is requested, it should =
be explicitly stated as mandatory<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; (possibly providing explicit rules for the s=
ubdivision, as in Chap. 3 of the draft).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; YOUNG&gt;&gt;&nbsp; When you have different =
sub-sets of TLV's to be packaged under the OPSF TE LSA, you can use a diffe=
rent LSA ID from the previously used one to avoid ambiguities. Then these a=
re simply two different LSAs and would not confuse
 the TE DB sync process as well as flooding process.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; Andrea<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; On 10/03/2011 09:34 PM, Leeyoung wrote:<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; Hi Andrea,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; Thanks for your interest and input to th=
is issue.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; My overall point was that the current GM=
PLS TE LSA (per RFC 3630) does not specify detail implementations as to how=
 to divide up the TE Link TLVs into static vs. dynamic nor how to use multi=
ple TE LSAs. The current WSON document follows
 a similar document philosophy with the GMPLS predecessor.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; Regarding your point on how the TE DB wo=
rks in regard to missing sub-TLVs are deleted seems to me a particular impl=
ementation, which is most simplistic in nature.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; Best Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; Young<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:cca=
mp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Andrea Zanardi<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 9:14 AM<o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; To: Leeyoung<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; Cc: ccamp@ietf.org<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-i=
etf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; Hi Young,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; I was following the discussion and I hav=
e a doubt about<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; your example related to the TE Link TLV.=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; It's true that the attributes sub-TLV ar=
e not mandatory per RFC 3630,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; but I don't think that means that they c=
an be not included in an LSA update<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; if unchanged (implying that the previous=
 value persists).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; As for my understanding of how OSPF-TE w=
orks, the managed TE DB entity is the LSA.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; When an LSA update is processed, the pre=
vious version is deleted from the TE DB<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; and it is replaced by the new one: link =
attributes related to missing sub-TLV are<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; deleted, so they must be present even if=
 unchanged.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; In theory, the set of link attributes co=
uld be statically divided<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; in two different LSAs instances (updated=
 independently),<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; but I don't think current implementation=
s handle this scenario<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; (also because, in my opinion, it's not s=
uggested by RFC 3630 and<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; it gives no rule=
 on how to divide them).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; But I ask to the mailing list if this is=
 the correct interpretation.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; Andrea<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt; On 09/30/2011 11:16 PM, Leeyoung wrote:<=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Pierre,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; I got your point. Let me ask you thi=
s question. In the current GMPLS OSPF TE Link TLV are defined under Opaque =
TE LSA with the following attributes:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; - TE Metric<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; - max B/W<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; - max reservable b/w<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; - unreserved b/w<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; - Admin Group<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; - Link Protection Type<o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; - SRLG<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; - ISCD<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; - etc.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; And these are a mixture of static an=
d dynamic information and yet they are assembled together as one TE Link TL=
V. For instance the ISCD is quite similar to Resource Block Info in that it=
 does not change often unless there are new
 elements added in the node or configuration changes and yet it is packaged=
 together with other dynamic information.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; Why?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; There are many ways to keep static/u=
nchanged information from being flooded. Only the Link Type and Link ID whi=
ch are mandatory in the TE Link TLV per RFC3630. All other sub-TLV are opti=
onal and may occur at most once (when there
 are enough changes from the previous period that deserve an update) and ne=
ed not be included in the TE Link TLV when there is no need for updating.<o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; I really don't see the need for a se=
parate top-level TLV and/or a separate LSA for the Resource Block informati=
on.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; Young<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; From: PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) [mailt=
o:pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.com]<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 9:3=
9 AM<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org<o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: dra=
ft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Young,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; I understand the content of your ans=
wer, but I'm not satisfied with it.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; My concern deals with providing a un=
ique reading/interpretation of the OSPF-TE extensions.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; We would like to make sure that any =
implementation complying to the drafts would provide the same LSAs when app=
lied to the same network.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; With this perspective in mind, we wi=
sh to get drafts with sufficient documentation to make sure the LSA design =
process to be depicted, by design rules.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; Hence the content of your answer lea=
ving me the &quot;opportunity to do as I wish&quot;, is not pleasing me, I =
would rather have strict rules, and discussions with the WG on the design o=
f those.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; That is why a first design rule, we =
could agree on is: to gather the Resource Block Information TLVs inside a d=
edicated LSA, possibly with a dedicated top-level TLV (which in my mind all=
ows to enforce this design rule).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; - Pierre<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; -----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; De : Leeyoung [mailto:leeyoung@huawe=
i.com]<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; Envoy=E9 : mercredi 28 septembre 201=
1 00:06<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; =C0 : PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE); ccamp=
@ietf.org<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; Objet : RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draf=
t-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Pierre,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; Please see-inline for my reply to yo=
ur first point.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; Young<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; From: PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) [mailt=
o:pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.com]<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 3:=
28 AM<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org<o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: dra=
ft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Young, and CCAMPers,<o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; I was off the mailing lists for the =
last two weeks and being back I notice a lot of exchanges, which I'm very g=
lad of.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; I've also noticed many drafts have b=
een updated.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; Concerning this specific draft-ietf-=
ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06, I wanted to comment section 3.<o:p=
></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; Back in Quebec, I expressed my point=
 of view (shared with Cyril, Julien and Giovanni) that current drafts were =
lacking guidance regarding the way to design LSAs that were to depict an WS=
ON node with OEOs.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; This section 3 provides additional m=
aterial to help designing the LSA.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; I would like to know whether authors=
 are willing to pursue further in this direction, which is to my mind a rea=
l corner stone, that would help everyone agree on a solution.<o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; A first point could concern the Reso=
urce Block Information (reminder:&lt;ResourceBlockInfo&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; ::=3D ([&lt;ResourceSet&gt;]&lt;InputConstraints&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &l=
t;ProcessingCapabilities&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;OutputConstraints&gt;):<=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;We all agree that these information are static, that we should =
not replicate this TLV whatever the number not the layout of OEO boards of =
a given type.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; Then, we could dedicate a specific i=
ndependant flooding entity. This would be defined once for all, and that wo=
uld not leave room to different interpretations.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; What about this first point?<o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; YOUNG&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If I=
 understand you correctly, what you are saying is since the Resource Block =
Info sub-TLV is very static in nature, advertisement of this sub-TLV should=
 be treated differently from the rest of static-TLVs (which may
 change over time). Is this what you are saying?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; If my interpretation of your comment=
 is correct,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; - The current mechanism allows what =
you want: Please see the first paragraph in Section 3.2<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&quot;In the highly unlikely event that a WSON sub-TLV by itself would<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
result in an LSA exceeding the MTU, all five WSON specific sub-TLVs<o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
in this document provide mechanisms that allow them to be subdivided<o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
into smaller sub-TLVs that can be sent in separate OSPF TE LSAs.&quot;<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; According to this clause, you can se=
parate the Resource Block Info Sub-TLV as the sole entry defined in the Opt=
ical Node property TLV in a separate TE LSA from the rest if you will. Noth=
ing prevents this particular way of packaging.
 (Isn't this what you meant &quot;a specific independent flooding entity&qu=
ot;?)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; - Please let me know if this explana=
tion satisfies you. Thanks --- Young<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; Pierre<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; -----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; De : ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:=
ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Leeyoung Envoy=E9 : jeudi 15 septembr=
e 2011 21:59 =C0 : ccamp@ietf.org Objet : Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-iet=
f-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi all,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; After 05 version publication, Acee p=
rovided a number of valuable comments and suggestions. This revision (06) r=
eflects those changes. Please note the following updates:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; - Change the title of the draft to &=
quot;GMPLS OSPF Enhancement...&quot; from &quot;OSPF Enhancement...&quot; t=
o make sure the changes apply to the GMPLS OSPF rather than the base OSPF.<=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; - Add specific OSPF procedures on ho=
w sub-TLVs are packaged per [RFC3630] and editorial change including avoidi=
ng &quot;multiple instances of TE LSA&quot; to &quot;multiple TE LSAs&quot;=
.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; Your comments are always appreciated=
. Thanks.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; Best Regards.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; Young<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto=
:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf.org<o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 2=
:48 PM<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; To: i-d-announce@ietf.org<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; Cc: ccamp@ietf.org<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-i=
etf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; A New Internet-Draft is available fr=
om the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of th=
e Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp; Title&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : GMPLS OSPF Enhancement for Signal an=
d Network Element Compatibility for Wavelength Switched Optical Networks<o:=
p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp; Author(s)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : Young Lee<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Greg M. Bern=
stein<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp; Filename&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.=
txt<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp; Pages&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : 14<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp; Date&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : 2011-09-15<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
This document provides GMPLS OSPF routing enhancements to support<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
signal compatibility constraints associated with WSON network<o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
elements. These routing enhancements are required in common optical<o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
or hybrid electro-optical networks where not all of the optical<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
signals in the network are compatible with all network elements<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
participating in the network.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
This compatibility constraint model is applicable to common optical<o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
or hybrid electro optical systems such as OEO switches, regenerators,<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
and wavelength converters since such systems can be limited to<o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
processing only certain types of WSON signals.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">-------------------------------------------------=
-------<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Andrea Zanardi<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">CREATE-NET<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Engineering &amp; Fast Prototyping (ENGINE) Area<=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Senior Engineer<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Via alla Cascata 56/D - 38123 Povo Trento (Italy)=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">e-mail: andrea.zanardi@create-net.org<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Tel: (&#43;39) 0461 408400 - interno/extension 14=
07<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Mobile: (&#43;39) 340 0011837<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Fax: (&#43;39) 0461 421157<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Skype: zanardi_andrea<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">www.create-net.org<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">-------------------------------------------------=
-------<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">The information transmitted is intended only for =
the person or entity to<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">which it is addressed and may contain confidentia=
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<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">material. Any review, retransmission, disseminati=
on or other use of, or<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">taking of any action in reliance upon, this infor=
mation by persons or<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">entities other than the intended recipient is pro=
hibited according to the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Italian Law 196/2003 of the Legislature. If you r=
eceived this in error,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">please contact the sender and delete the material=
 from any computer.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Le informazioni contenute in questo messaggio di =
posta elettronica e nei<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">file allegati sono da considerarsi strettamente r=
iservate. Il loro utilizzo<o:p></o:p></p>
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messaggio, per le finalita'<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">indicate nel messaggio stesso. Qualora riceveste =
questo messaggio senza<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">esserne il destinatario, Vi preghiamo cortesement=
e di darcene notizia via<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">e-mail e di procedere alla cancellazione del mess=
aggio stesso dal Vostro<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">sistema. Trattenere il messaggio stesso, divulgar=
lo anche in parte,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">distribuirlo ad altri soggetti, copiarlo, od util=
izzarlo per finalita'<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">diverse, costituisce comportamento contrario ai p=
rincipi dettati dal D. Lgs.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">196/2003.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">_______________________________________________<o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">CCAMP mailing list<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">CCAMP@ietf.org<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp<o:p><=
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To: Zhangfatai <zhangfatai@huawei.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 09:52:57 -0400
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From jaiharik@ipinfusion.com  Thu Oct 20 00:21:17 2011
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--0015174bdc8490cbac04afb5cb71
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Hi Zhang,

I have a question.

The connection object in the draft has only destination tunnel number.

But as per TP Identifiers RFC 6370,

5.2.2.  MPLS-TP Associated Bidirectional LSP Identifiers

      A1-{Global_ID::Node_ID::Tunnel_Num::LSP_Num}::
      Z9-{Global_ID::Node_ID::Tunnel_Num::LSP_Num}


So I think the connection object should also include the destination LSP
number also.

Please comment..


*Thanks & Regards,*
*Jai Hari M.K.
IP Infusion*



> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 19:08:51 +0800
> From: zhang.fei3@zte.com.cn
> To: "ccamp@ietf.org" <ccamp@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
> Subject: [mpls] Request comments on
>        draft-zhang-ccamp-mpls-tp-rsvpte-ext-tunnel-num-00
> Message-ID:
>        <
> OF3E7FD488.405BF0C5-ON4825792C.00351CBE-4825792C.003D3BA7@zte.com.cn>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hi all
>
> We've submitted a draft for the group's consideration, below is the link:
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-ccamp-mpls-tp-rsvpte-ext-tunnel-num-00
> .
>
> This draft is about the supporting of MPLS-TP Maintenance Identifiers. As
> described in http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6370, at each end point, a
> tunnel is uniquely identified by the end point's Node_ID and a locally
> assigned tunnel number, which allow a compact form for the MEP_ID, and
> extensions will be required to GMPLS to support these identifiers.
> Furthermore, http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6373 addressed this issue in
> section 4.4.8.
>
> Obviously, this issue can be solved by defining a new object, such as
> Connection Object as described in this draft, or a new sub-TLV call MEP_ID
> can be carried back to the ingress LSR in Resv message when the "CV" flag
> of the OAM Function Flags Sub-TLV is set, which may be considered in the
> subsequent version of the draft
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-mpls-tp-oam-ext-06.
>
> We hope you'll find the time to look through the draft and comment on the
> list, help judge which way is more suitable before the WG meeting in
> Taipei, and hope that we'll be able to have a fruitful and lively
> discussion there.
>
>
> Best,
>
> Fei
>

--0015174bdc8490cbac04afb5cb71
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>Hi Zhang,</div><div><br></div><div>I have a=
 question.</div><div><br></div><div>The connection object in the draft has =
only destination tunnel number.</div><div><br></div><div>But as per TP Iden=
tifiers RFC 6370,</div>
<div><br></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: =
&#39;Times New Roman&#39;; font-size: 16px; "><pre class=3D"newpage" style=
=3D"font-size: 1em; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; page-break-before:=
 always; ">
<span class=3D"h4" style=3D"line-height: 0pt; display: inline; white-space:=
 pre; font-family: monospace; font-size: 1em; font-weight: bold; "><h4 styl=
e=3D"line-height: 0pt; display: inline; white-space: pre; font-family: mono=
space; font-size: 1em; font-weight: bold; ">
<a name=3D"section-5.2.2">5.2.2</a>.  MPLS-TP Associated Bidirectional LSP =
Identifiers</h4></span></pre></span></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-style-s=
pan" style=3D"font-family: &#39;Times New Roman&#39;; font-size: 16px; "><p=
re class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 1em; margin-top: 0px; margin-botto=
m: 0px; page-break-before: always; ">
      A1-{Global_ID::Node_ID::Tunnel_Num::LSP_Num}::
      Z9-{Global_ID::Node_ID::Tunnel_Num::LSP_Num}
</pre><div><br></div></span></div><div>So I think the connection object sho=
uld also include the destination LSP number also.</div><div><br></div><div>=
Please comment..</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><i><font class=3D"=
Apple-style-span" color=3D"#999999">Thanks &amp; Regards,</font></i></div>
<div><i><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"#999999">Jai Hari M.K.<br=
>IP Infusion</font></i></div><div><br></div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex;">

Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 19:08:51 +0800<br>
From: <a href=3D"mailto:zhang.fei3@zte.com.cn">zhang.fei3@zte.com.cn</a><br=
>
To: &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp@ietf.org">ccamp@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:ccamp@ietf.org">ccamp@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf=
.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>

Subject: [mpls] Request comments on<br>
 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0draft-zhang-ccamp-mpls-tp-rsvpte-ext-tunnel-num-00<br>
Message-ID:<br>
 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:OF3E7FD488.405BF0C5-ON4825792C.00351C=
BE-4825792C.003D3BA7@zte.com.cn">OF3E7FD488.405BF0C5-ON4825792C.00351CBE-48=
25792C.003D3BA7@zte.com.cn</a>&gt;<br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D&quot;us-ascii&quot;<br>
<br>
Hi all<br>
<br>
We&#39;ve submitted a draft for the group&#39;s consideration, below is the=
 link:<br>
<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-ccamp-mpls-tp-rsvpte-ext-=
tunnel-num-00" target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-cca=
mp-mpls-tp-rsvpte-ext-tunnel-num-00</a>.<br>
<br>
This draft is about the supporting of MPLS-TP Maintenance Identifiers. As<b=
r>
described in <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6370" target=3D"_blan=
k">http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6370</a>, at each end point, a<br>
tunnel is uniquely identified by the end point&#39;s Node_ID and a locally<=
br>
assigned tunnel number, which allow a compact form for the MEP_ID, and<br>
extensions will be required to GMPLS to support these identifiers.<br>
Furthermore, <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6373" target=3D"_blan=
k">http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6373</a> addressed this issue in<br>
section 4.4.8.<br>
<br>
Obviously, this issue can be solved by defining a new object, such as<br>
Connection Object as described in this draft, or a new sub-TLV call MEP_ID<=
br>
can be carried back to the ingress LSR in Resv message when the &quot;CV&qu=
ot; flag<br>
of the OAM Function Flags Sub-TLV is set, which may be considered in the<br=
>
subsequent version of the draft<br>
<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-mpls-tp-oam-=
ext-06" target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-=
te-mpls-tp-oam-ext-06</a>.<br>
<br>
We hope you&#39;ll find the time to look through the draft and comment on t=
he<br>
list, help judge which way is more suitable before the WG meeting in<br>
Taipei, and hope that we&#39;ll be able to have a fruitful and lively<br>
discussion there.<br>
<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Fei<br></blockquote></div>

--0015174bdc8490cbac04afb5cb71--

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From: Jaihari Kalijanakiraman <jaiharik@ipinfusion.com>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [mpls] Request comments on draft-zhang-ccamp-mpls-tp-rsvpte-ext-tunnel-num-00
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--20cf3079bf42fdcc4a04afbcc5df
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312
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Hi Zhang,

Thanks for the clarification.

Sorry I misunderstood.

I have a question here..

You mentioned "As to the associated bidirectional LSP, there are two
independent signaling procedures for the forward and backward directional
LSPs"..

So for associated bidirectional LSPs the two endpoints should have an
association or binding between the forward and reverse tunnels.

So if the forward and reverse directional LSPs are independently signaled,
how the binding or association will be established between them..

When I read the draft, initially thought that this connection object will b=
e
used to establish that binding or association...

Is there a way to establish this binding already.. Please clarify..

Cant we use this object to establish that binding??

Thanks again, for your kind reply...


*Thanks & Regards,*
*Jai Hari M.K.*
*IP Infusion*

2011/10/20 <zhang.fei3@zte.com.cn>

>
> Hi Jaihari
>
> Thanks for your comments. :-)
>
> This draft is about how to carry the local assigned tunnel number of
> co-routed bidirectional LSP, sorry I do not describe it clearly in the ma=
il.
>
> According to the description in section 5.2.1 of the RFC6370, the LSP
> number keeps the same under the context of A1 and Z9's tunnel numbers:
>
> A1-{Node_ID::Tunnel_Num}::Z9-{Node_ID::Tunnel_Num}::LSP_Num
>
> So only the tunnel number assigned by the destination node is missing.
>
> As to the associated bidirectional LSP, there are two independent signali=
ng
> procedures for the forward and backward directional LSPs, and the A1 and =
Z9
> know each other the assigned tunnel number and LSP number.
>
> Furthermore, the Global_ID is also needed if the LSP is across different
> ASs, which may be added in next version.
>
> Your comments are welcome.
>
> Best regards
>
> Fei
>
>
>  *Jaihari Kalijanakiraman <jaiharik@ipinfusion.com>*
>
> 2011-10-20 15:22
>   =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB
> zhang.fei3@zte.com.cn
> =B3=AD=CB=CD
> "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
> =D6=F7=CC=E2
> Re: [mpls] Request comments on
> draft-zhang-ccamp-mpls-tp-rsvpte-ext-tunnel-num-00
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:50 PM, Jaihari Kalijanakiraman <*
> jaiharik@ipinfusion.com* <jaiharik@ipinfusion.com>> wrote:
> Hi Zhang,
>
> I have a question.
>
> The connection object in the draft has only destination tunnel number.
>
> But as per TP Identifiers RFC 6370,
>
> *
>
> 5.2.2.  MPLS-TP Associated Bidirectional LSP Identifiers*
>
>      A1-{Global_ID::Node_ID::Tunnel_Num::LSP_Num}::
>      Z9-{Global_ID::Node_ID::Tunnel_Num::LSP_Num}
>
>
> So I think the connection object should also include the destination LSP
> number also.
>
> Please comment..
>
>
> *Thanks & Regards,*
> *Jai Hari M.K.
> IP Infusion*
>
>
> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 19:08:51 +0800
> From: *zhang.fei3@zte.com.cn* <zhang.fei3@zte.com.cn>
> To: "*ccamp@ietf.org* <ccamp@ietf.org>" <*ccamp@ietf.org* <ccamp@ietf.org=
>>,
> "*mpls@ietf.org* <mpls@ietf.org>" <*mpls@ietf.org* <mpls@ietf.org>>
> Subject: [mpls] Request comments on
>        draft-zhang-ccamp-mpls-tp-rsvpte-ext-tunnel-num-00
> Message-ID:
>        <*
> OF3E7FD488.405BF0C5-ON4825792C.00351CBE-4825792C.003D3BA7@zte.com.cn*<OF3=
E7FD488.405BF0C5-ON4825792C.00351CBE-4825792C.003D3BA7@zte.com.cn>
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii"
>
> Hi all
>
> We've submitted a draft for the group's consideration, below is the link:=
*
> **
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-ccamp-mpls-tp-rsvpte-ext-tunnel-nu=
m-00
> *<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-ccamp-mpls-tp-rsvpte-ext-tunnel-=
num-00>
> .
>
> This draft is about the supporting of MPLS-TP Maintenance Identifiers. As
> described in *http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6370*<http://tools.ietf.org/h=
tml/rfc6370>,
> at each end point, a
> tunnel is uniquely identified by the end point's Node_ID and a locally
> assigned tunnel number, which allow a compact form for the MEP_ID, and
> extensions will be required to GMPLS to support these identifiers.
> Furthermore, *http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6373*<http://tools.ietf.org/h=
tml/rfc6373>addressed this issue in
> section 4.4.8.
>
> Obviously, this issue can be solved by defining a new object, such as
> Connection Object as described in this draft, or a new sub-TLV call MEP_I=
D
> can be carried back to the ingress LSR in Resv message when the "CV" flag
> of the OAM Function Flags Sub-TLV is set, which may be considered in the
> subsequent version of the draft*
> **http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-mpls-tp-oam-ext-06*=
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-mpls-tp-oam-ext-06>
> .
>
> We hope you'll find the time to look through the draft and comment on the
> list, help judge which way is more suitable before the WG meeting in
> Taipei, and hope that we'll be able to have a fruitful and lively
> discussion there.
>
>
> Best,
>
> Fei
>
>

--20cf3079bf42fdcc4a04afbcc5df
Content-Type: text/html; charset=GB2312
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Zhang,<div><br></div><div>Thanks for the clarification.</div><div><br></=
div><div>Sorry I misunderstood.</div><div><br></div><div>I have a question =
here..</div><div><br></div><div>You mentioned &quot;<span class=3D"Apple-st=
yle-span" style=3D"font-family: sans-serif; font-size: medium; ">As to the&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: sans-ser=
if; font-size: medium; ">associated bidirectional LSP, there are two indepe=
ndent signaling procedures for the forward and backward directional LSPs</s=
pan>&quot;..</div>
<div><br></div><div>So for associated bidirectional LSPs the two endpoints =
should have an association or binding between the forward and reverse tunne=
ls.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>So if the forward and reverse directiona=
l LSPs are independently signaled, how the binding or association will be e=
stablished between them..</div>
<div><br></div><div>When I read the draft, initially thought that this conn=
ection object will be used to establish that binding or association...</div=
><div><br></div><div>Is there a way to establish this binding already.. Ple=
ase clarify..</div>
<div><br></div><div>Cant we use this object to establish that binding??</di=
v><div><br></div><div>Thanks again, for your kind reply...</div><div><br></=
div><div><br></div><div><i><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"#99999=
9">Thanks &amp; Regards,</font></i></div>
<div><i><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"#999999">Jai Hari M.K.</f=
ont></i></div><div><i><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"#999999">IP=
 Infusion</font></i><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2011/10/20  <span di=
r=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zhang.fei3@zte.com.cn">zhang.fei3@zte.com.c=
n</a>&gt;</span><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<br><font size=3D"3" face=3D"sans-serif">Hi Jaihari</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3D"3" face=3D"sans-serif">Thanks for your comments. :-)</fon=
t>
<br>
<br><font size=3D"3" face=3D"sans-serif">This draft is about how to carry t=
he
local assigned tunnel number of co-routed bidirectional LSP, sorry I do
not describe it clearly in the mail.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3D"3" face=3D"sans-serif">According to the description in se=
ction
5.2.1 of the RFC6370, the LSP number keeps the same under the context of
A1 and Z9&#39;s tunnel numbers: </font>
<br>
<br><font size=3D"3" face=3D"sans-serif">A1-{Node_ID::Tunnel_Num}::Z9-{Node=
_ID::Tunnel_Num}::LSP_Num<br>
<br>
So only the tunnel number assigned by the destination node is missing.
</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3D"3" face=3D"sans-serif">As to the associated bidirectional=
 LSP,
there are two independent signaling procedures for the forward and backward
directional LSPs, and the A1 and Z9</font>
<br><font size=3D"3" face=3D"sans-serif">know each other the assigned tunne=
l
number and LSP number.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3D"3" face=3D"sans-serif">Furthermore, the Global_ID is also=
 needed
if the LSP is across different ASs, which may be added in next version.</fo=
nt>
<br>
<br><font size=3D"3" face=3D"sans-serif">Your comments are welcome.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3D"3" face=3D"sans-serif">Best regards</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3D"3" face=3D"sans-serif">Fei</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<p></p><table width=3D"100%">
<tbody><tr valign=3D"top">
<td width=3D"36%"><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif"><b>Jaihari Kalijanak=
iraman
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jaiharik@ipinfusion.com" target=3D"_blank">jaiharik@i=
pinfusion.com</a>&gt;</b> </font>
<p><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif">2011-10-20 15:22</font>
</p></td><td width=3D"63%">
<table width=3D"100%">
<tbody><tr valign=3D"top">
<td>
<div align=3D"right"><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif">=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=
=CB</font></div>
</td><td><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif"><a href=3D"mailto:zhang.fei3@=
zte.com.cn" target=3D"_blank">zhang.fei3@zte.com.cn</a></font>
</td></tr><tr valign=3D"top">
<td>
<div align=3D"right"><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif">=B3=AD=CB=CD</fon=
t></div>
</td><td><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif">&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:m=
pls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;</font>
</td></tr><tr valign=3D"top">
<td>
<div align=3D"right"><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif">=D6=F7=CC=E2</fon=
t></div>
</td><td><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif">Re: [mpls] Request comments o=
n draft-zhang-ccamp-mpls-tp-rsvpte-ext-tunnel-num-00</font></td></tr></tbod=
y></table>
<br>
<table>
<tbody><tr valign=3D"top">
<td>
</td><td></td></tr></tbody></table>
<br></td></tr></tbody></table><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5">
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=3D"3"><br>
</font>
<br><font size=3D"3">On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:50 PM, Jaihari Kalijanakira=
man
&lt;</font><a href=3D"mailto:jaiharik@ipinfusion.com" target=3D"_blank"><fo=
nt size=3D"3" color=3D"blue"><u>jaiharik@ipinfusion.com</u></font></a><font=
 size=3D"3">&gt;
wrote:</font>
<br><font size=3D"3">Hi Zhang,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3D"3">I have a question.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3D"3">The connection object in the draft has only destinatio=
n
tunnel number.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3D"3">But as per TP Identifiers RFC 6370,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><b><br>
<br>
5.2.2. &nbsp;MPLS-TP Associated Bidirectional LSP Identifiers</b></font>
<br><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;A1-{Global_ID::Node_ID::Tunnel_Num::LSP_Num}::<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Z9-{Global_ID::Node_ID::Tunnel_Num::LSP_Num}<br>
</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3D"3">So I think the connection object should also include t=
he
destination LSP number also.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3D"3">Please comment..</font>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=3D"3" color=3D"#999999"><i>Thanks &amp; Regards,</i></font>
<br><font size=3D"3" color=3D"#999999"><i>Jai Hari M.K.<br>
IP Infusion</i></font>
<br>
<br><font size=3D"3">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=3D"3">Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 19:08:51 +0800<br>
From: </font><a href=3D"mailto:zhang.fei3@zte.com.cn" target=3D"_blank"><fo=
nt size=3D"3" color=3D"blue"><u>zhang.fei3@zte.com.cn</u></font></a><font s=
ize=3D"3"><br>
To: &quot;</font><a href=3D"mailto:ccamp@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><font =
size=3D"3" color=3D"blue"><u>ccamp@ietf.org</u></font></a><font size=3D"3">=
&quot;
&lt;</font><a href=3D"mailto:ccamp@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><font size=
=3D"3" color=3D"blue"><u>ccamp@ietf.org</u></font></a><font size=3D"3">&gt;=
,
&quot;</font><a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><font size=
=3D"3" color=3D"blue"><u>mpls@ietf.org</u></font></a><font size=3D"3">&quot=
;
&lt;</font><a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><font size=3D=
"3" color=3D"blue"><u>mpls@ietf.org</u></font></a><font size=3D"3">&gt;<br>
Subject: [mpls] Request comments on<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;draft-zhang-ccamp-mpls-tp-rsvpte-ext-tunnel-num-=
00<br>
Message-ID:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;</font><a href=3D"mailto:OF3E7FD488.405BF0C5=
-ON4825792C.00351CBE-4825792C.003D3BA7@zte.com.cn" target=3D"_blank"><font =
size=3D"3" color=3D"blue"><u>OF3E7FD488.405BF0C5-ON4825792C.00351CBE-482579=
2C.003D3BA7@zte.com.cn</u></font></a><font size=3D"3">&gt;<br>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D&quot;us-ascii&quot;<br>
<br>
Hi all<br>
<br>
We&#39;ve submitted a draft for the group&#39;s consideration, below is the=
 link:</font><font size=3D"3" color=3D"blue"><u><br>
</u></font><a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-ccamp-mpls-tp-=
rsvpte-ext-tunnel-num-00" target=3D"_blank"><font size=3D"3" color=3D"blue"=
><u>http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-ccamp-mpls-tp-rsvpte-ext-tunnel-=
num-00</u></font></a><font size=3D"3">.<br>

<br>
This draft is about the supporting of MPLS-TP Maintenance Identifiers.
As<br>
described in </font><a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6370" target=
=3D"_blank"><font size=3D"3" color=3D"blue"><u>http://tools.ietf.org/html/r=
fc6370</u></font></a><font size=3D"3">,
at each end point, a<br>
tunnel is uniquely identified by the end point&#39;s Node_ID and a locally<=
br>
assigned tunnel number, which allow a compact form for the MEP_ID, and<br>
extensions will be required to GMPLS to support these identifiers.<br>
Furthermore, </font><a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6373" target=
=3D"_blank"><font size=3D"3" color=3D"blue"><u>http://tools.ietf.org/html/r=
fc6373</u></font></a><font size=3D"3">
addressed this issue in<br>
section 4.4.8.<br>
<br>
Obviously, this issue can be solved by defining a new object, such as<br>
Connection Object as described in this draft, or a new sub-TLV call MEP_ID<=
br>
can be carried back to the ingress LSR in Resv message when the &quot;CV&qu=
ot;
flag<br>
of the OAM Function Flags Sub-TLV is set, which may be considered in the<br=
>
subsequent version of the draft</font><font size=3D"3" color=3D"blue"><u><b=
r>
</u></font><a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-m=
pls-tp-oam-ext-06" target=3D"_blank"><font size=3D"3" color=3D"blue"><u>htt=
p://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-mpls-tp-oam-ext-06</u></fo=
nt></a><font size=3D"3">.<br>

<br>
We hope you&#39;ll find the time to look through the draft and comment on t=
he<br>
list, help judge which way is more suitable before the WG meeting in<br>
Taipei, and hope that we&#39;ll be able to have a fruitful and lively<br>
discussion there.<br>
<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Fei</font>
<br>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

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From: Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>
To: "ccamp@ietf.org" <ccamp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: draft-beeram-ccamp-gmpls-uni-bcp 
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Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:23:07 +0000
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Cc: "Vishnu P. Beeram" <VBeeram@advaoptical.com>, Manuel Paul <None@ietfa.amsl.com>, Ruediger Kunze <ruediger.kunze@telekom.de>
Subject: [CCAMP] draft-beeram-ccamp-gmpls-uni-bcp
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From: Acee Lindem <acee.lindem@ericsson.com>
To: Zhangfatai <zhangfatai@huawei.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 11:00:43 -0400
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Comment regarding draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-02
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Cc: Jonathan Harrison <jon.harrison@metaswitch.com>, "ccamp@ietf.org" <ccamp@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Comment regarding draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-02
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From iesg-secretary@ietf.org  Mon Oct 24 10:27:02 2011
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From: The IESG <iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
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Cc: ccamp mailing list <ccamp@ietf.org>, ccamp chair <ccamp-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, RFC Editor <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>
Subject: [CCAMP] Protocol Action: 'LSP Attributes Related Routing Backus-Naur Form' to	Proposed Standard (draft-ietf-ccamp-attribute-bnf-02.txt)
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The IESG has approved the following document:
- 'LSP Attributes Related Routing Backus-Naur Form'
  (draft-ietf-ccamp-attribute-bnf-02.txt) as a Proposed Standard

This document is the product of the Common Control and Measurement Plane
Working Group.

The IESG contact persons are Adrian Farrel and Stewart Bryant.

A URL of this Internet Draft is:
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ccamp-attribute-bnf/




Technical Summary

  Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) Label Switched Paths (LSPs)
  established using the Resource Reservation Protocol Traffic
  Engineering (RSVP-TE) extensions may be signaled with a set of LSP
  specific attributes. These attributes may be carried in both Path
  and Resv messages. This document specifies how LSP attribute are
  to be carried in RSVP Path and Resv messages using the Routing
  Backus-Naur Form, and clarifies related Resv message formats.
  This document updates RFC 4875 and RFC 5420.

Working Group Summary

  No issues. The document is considered to be both stable and
  complete.

  Note that the "updates" cahin for RSVP-TE is quite complex and it
  is customary to only show the updates for the head of the chain in
  any new update. Thus, this document is shown as updating RFC 4875
  and RFC 5420, but not RFC 3209 or RFC 3473.

Document Quality

  Note that no formal tool exists for checking RBNF as defined in
  RFC 5511. Thus, all checks have been done by hand/eye.

  No implementations have been publicly discussed. 

  However, implementations of RFC 4875 and RFC 5420 are
  known to exist, and are conformant with this specification.

  Furthermore, this document is required as a normative 
  reference from draft-ietf-mpls-rsvp-te-no-php-oob-mapping
  which is known to have been implemented.

Personnel

   Deborah Brungard (dbrungard@att.com) is the Document Shepherd
   Adrian Farrel (adrian@olddog.co.uk) is the Responsible AD

RFC Editor Note

Please edit for consistency:
    The objects are called "LSP Attributes" and "LSP Required Attributes"

Section 1
OLD:
   processed in Resv messages of P2MP LSPs.
NEW
   processed in Resv messages of P2MP LSPs (which are defined in
   [RFC4875]).
END

Section 1
OLD:
   The current message format description has led
   to an issue in how the LSP Attributes related objects are to be
   processed...
NEW
   The current message format description has led to the open
   question of how the LSP Attributes related objects are to be
   processed...
END

Section 3.2.1
OLD:
   A node that does not support the LSP Attribute object formatting as
   defined in this section will interpret the first present LSP
   Attribute object as representing LSP operational status even when it
   is intended to represent S2L sub-LSP status.
NEW:
   A node that supports [RFC4875] and [RFC5420], but not this
   document, will interpret the first LSP Attribute object present in
   a received message, which is formatted as described in this
   document, as representing LSP operational status rather than S2L
   sub-LSP status.
END

From fu.xihua@zte.com.cn  Mon Oct 24 20:06:19 2011
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Hi All,

We updated this delay-loss-te framework document. 
We want to request it as WG document in the future. If you have any 
comments, please let me know.

Please also notice there some several protocol extension to support 
delay-loss-te.
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fuxh-mpls-delay-loss-rsvp-te-ext-00
http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-atlas-mpls-te-express-path-00.txt
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-02
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-previdi-isis-te-metric-extensions-00

Xihua Fu


i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org wrote 2011-10-08 09:24:24:

> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
> directories.
> 
>    Title           : Traffic Engineering architecture for services aware 
MPLS
>    Author(s)       : Xihua Fu
>                           Vishwas Manral
>                           Dave McDysan
>                           Andrew Malis
>                           Spencer Giacalone
>                           Malcolm Betts
>                           Qilei Wang
>                           John Drake
>    Filename        : draft-fuxh-mpls-delay-loss-te-framework-02.txt
>    Pages           : 14
>    Date            : 2011-10-07
> 
>    With more and more enterprises using cloud based services, the
>    distances between the user and the applications are growing.  A lot
>    of the current applications are designed to work across LAN&#39;s and
>    have various inherent assumptions.  For multiple applications such as
>    High Performance Computing and Electronic Financial markets, the
>    response times are critical as is packet loss, while other
>    applications require more throughput.
> 
>    [RFC3031] describes the architecture of MPLS based networks.  This
>    draft extends the MPLS architecture to allow for latency, loss and
>    jitter as properties.  It describes requirements and control plane
>    implication for latency and packet loss as a traffic engineering
>    performance metric in today&#39;s network which is consisting of
>    potentially multiple layers of packet transport network and optical
>    transport network in order to make a accurate end-to-end latency and
>    loss prediction before a path is established.
> 
>    Note MPLS architecture for Multicast will be taken up in a future
>    version of the draft.
> 
> 
> 
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-fuxh-mpls-delay-loss-te-
> framework-02.txt
> 
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> 
> This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-fuxh-mpls-delay-loss-te-
> framework-02.txt
> _______________________________________________
> I-D-Announce mailing list
> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
> 

--=_alternative 00110BAC48257934_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"


<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Hi All,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">We updated this delay-loss-te framework
document. </font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">We want to request it as WG document
in the future. If you have any comments, please let me know.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Please also notice there some several
protocol extension to support delay-loss-te.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fuxh-mpls-delay-loss-rsvp-te-ext-00</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-atlas-mpls-te-express-path-00.txt</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-giacalone-ospf-te-express-path-02</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-previdi-isis-te-metric-extensions-00</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Xihua Fu</font>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org wrote 2011-10-08 09:24:24:<br>
<br>
&gt; A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
<br>
&gt; directories.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;Title &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; : Traffic Engineering
architecture for services aware MPLS<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;Author(s) &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; : Xihua Fu<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Vishwas Manral<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Dave McDysan<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Andrew Malis<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Spencer Giacalone<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Malcolm Betts<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Qilei Wang<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; John Drake<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;Filename &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;: draft-fuxh-mpls-delay-loss-te-framework-02.txt<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;Pages &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; : 14<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;Date &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;: 2011-10-07<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;With more and more enterprises using cloud based services,
the<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;distances between the user and the applications are growing.
&nbsp;A lot<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;of the current applications are designed to work across
LAN&amp;#39;s and<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;have various inherent assumptions. &nbsp;For multiple
applications such as<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;High Performance Computing and Electronic Financial markets,
the<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;response times are critical as is packet loss, while
other<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;applications require more throughput.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;[RFC3031] describes the architecture of MPLS based networks.
&nbsp;This<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;draft extends the MPLS architecture to allow for latency,
loss and<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;jitter as properties. &nbsp;It describes requirements
and control plane<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;implication for latency and packet loss as a traffic
engineering<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;performance metric in today&amp;#39;s network which is
consisting of<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;potentially multiple layers of packet transport network
and optical<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;transport network in order to make a accurate end-to-end
latency and<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;loss prediction before a path is established.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;Note MPLS architecture for Multicast will be taken up
in a future<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;version of the draft.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; A URL for this Internet-Draft is:<br>
&gt; http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-fuxh-mpls-delay-loss-te-<br>
&gt; framework-02.txt<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:<br>
&gt; ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:<br>
&gt; ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-fuxh-mpls-delay-loss-te-<br>
&gt; framework-02.txt<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; I-D-Announce mailing list<br>
&gt; I-D-Announce@ietf.org<br>
&gt; https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce<br>
&gt; Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html<br>
&gt; or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt<br>
&gt; <br>
</tt></font>
--=_alternative 00110BAC48257934_=--


From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Tue Oct 25 13:06:38 2011
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Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-assoc-info-03.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane =
Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : Usage of The RSVP Association Object
	Author(s)       : Lou Berger
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-assoc-info-03.txt
	Pages           : 11
	Date            : 2011-10-25

   The RSVP ASSOCIATION object was defined in the context of GMPLS
   (Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching) controlled label
   switched paths (LSPs).  In this context, the object is used to
   associate recovery LSPs with the LSP they are protecting.  This
   document reviews how association is to be provided in the context
   of GMPLS recovery.  No new procedures or mechanisms are
   defined by this document and it is strictly informative in nature.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-assoc-info-03.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
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This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-assoc-info-03.txt

From lberger@labn.net  Tue Oct 25 13:09:06 2011
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-assoc-info-03.txt
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FYI this version incorporates minor nits identified since the positing
of the previous version (which was subject to the WG LC that ended 10/14.)

Lou

On 10/25/2011 4:06 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.
> 
> 	Title           : Usage of The RSVP Association Object
> 	Author(s)       : Lou Berger
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-assoc-info-03.txt
> 	Pages           : 11
> 	Date            : 2011-10-25
> 
>    The RSVP ASSOCIATION object was defined in the context of GMPLS
>    (Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching) controlled label
>    switched paths (LSPs).  In this context, the object is used to
>    associate recovery LSPs with the LSP they are protecting.  This
>    document reviews how association is to be provided in the context
>    of GMPLS recovery.  No new procedures or mechanisms are
>    defined by this document and it is strictly informative in nature.
> 
> 
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-assoc-info-03.txt
> 
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> 
> This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-assoc-info-03.txt
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> 
> 
> 
> 

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Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "ccamp@ietf.org" <ccamp@ietf.org>, Jaihari Kalijanakiraman <jaiharik@ipinfusion.com>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] [mpls] Request comments on	draft-zhang-ccamp-mpls-tp-rsvpte-ext-tunnel-num-00
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Fei,
	

On 10/20/2011 9:04 PM, zhang.fei3@zte.com.cn wrote:
> 
> Hi Jaihari
> 
> As to the associated bidirectional LSP, the binding is based on the
> Extended Association object, which is defined in the draft
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-assoc-ext-00.
> 
> A new Association Type is introduced in another draft*,
> *http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-mpls-tp-rsvpte-ext-associated-lsp-02.
> 
> Based on the association type "associated bidirectional LSP", two
> reverse unidirectional LSPs can form the assoicated bidirectional LSP.
> 
> However, according to the usage of this object, see the description of
> the section 2.3.1 in the draft
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-assoc-ext-00, "no
> associations are made across Path and Resv state".
> 
> That indicates that the Association object or Extended Association
> object can not be used to carry back the local assigned tunnel number in
> the context of corouted bidirectional LSP.

sure, it *could*, but agree that this isn't the way to go. (Although
such usage might be better than allocating a new top-level object for
this purpose!)

> 
> That is the history why a new Connection object is introduced here for
> the co-routed bidirectional LSP.

If all this draft is really about is providing the RFC6370 Z9 (egress)
Tunnel_Num, why not just define a new LSP Attributes TLV and carry it
there (in Resv messages of co-routed bidirectional LSPs)?  New top-level
RSVP objects are a *bid* deal as the number space is so small.

Lou
> 
> Be glad to share my opinion on this subject.
> 
> Best regards
> 
> Fei
> 
> 
> 
> *Jaihari Kalijanakiraman <jaiharik@ipinfusion.com>*
> 
> 2011-10-20 23:40
> 
> 	
> ռ
> 	zhang.fei3@zte.com.cn
> 
> 	"ccamp@ietf.org" <ccamp@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
> 
> 	Re: [mpls] Request comments on
> draft-zhang-ccamp-mpls-tp-rsvpte-ext-tunnel-num-00
> 
> 
> 	
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Zhang,
> 
> Thanks for the clarification.
> 
> Sorry I misunderstood.
> 
> I have a question here..
> 
> You mentioned "As to the associated bidirectional LSP, there are two
> independent signaling procedures for the forward and backward
> directional LSPs"..
> 
> So for associated bidirectional LSPs the two endpoints should have an
> association or binding between the forward and reverse tunnels.
> 
> So if the forward and reverse directional LSPs are independently
> signaled, how the binding or association will be established between them..
> 
> When I read the draft, initially thought that this connection object
> will be used to establish that binding or association...
> 
> Is there a way to establish this binding already.. Please clarify..
> 
> Cant we use this object to establish that binding??
> 
> Thanks again, for your kind reply...
> 
> 
> /Thanks & Regards,/
> /Jai Hari M.K./
> /IP Infusion/
> 
> 2011/10/20 <_zhang.fei3@zte.com.cn_ <mailto:zhang.fei3@zte.com.cn>>
> 
> Hi Jaihari
> 
> Thanks for your comments. :-)
> 
> This draft is about how to carry the local assigned tunnel number of
> co-routed bidirectional LSP, sorry I do not describe it clearly in the
> mail.
> 
> According to the description in section 5.2.1 of the RFC6370, the LSP
> number keeps the same under the context of A1 and Z9's tunnel numbers:
> 
> A1-{Node_ID::Tunnel_Num}::Z9-{Node_ID::Tunnel_Num}::LSP_Num
> 
> So only the tunnel number assigned by the destination node is missing.
> 
> As to the associated bidirectional LSP, there are two independent
> signaling procedures for the forward and backward directional LSPs, and
> the A1 and Z9
> know each other the assigned tunnel number and LSP number.
> 
> Furthermore, the Global_ID is also needed if the LSP is across different
> ASs, which may be added in next version.
> 
> Your comments are welcome.
> 
> Best regards
> 
> Fei
> 
> *Jaihari Kalijanakiraman <**_jaiharik@ipinfusion.com_*
> <mailto:jaiharik@ipinfusion.com>*>*
> 
> 2011-10-20 15:22
> 
> 	
> ռ
> 	_zhang.fei3@zte.com.cn_ <mailto:zhang.fei3@zte.com.cn>
> 
> 	"_mpls@ietf.org_ <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>" <_mpls@ietf.org_
> <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>>
> 
> 	Re: [mpls] Request comments on
> draft-zhang-ccamp-mpls-tp-rsvpte-ext-tunnel-num-00
> 
> 
> 
> 	
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:50 PM, Jaihari Kalijanakiraman
> <_jaiharik@ipinfusion.com_ <mailto:jaiharik@ipinfusion.com>> wrote:
> Hi Zhang,
> 
> I have a question.
> 
> The connection object in the draft has only destination tunnel number.
> 
> But as per TP Identifiers RFC 6370,
> *
> 
> 
> 5.2.2.  MPLS-TP Associated Bidirectional LSP Identifiers*
> 
>     A1-{Global_ID::Node_ID::Tunnel_Num::LSP_Num}::
>     Z9-{Global_ID::Node_ID::Tunnel_Num::LSP_Num}
> 
> 
> So I think the connection object should also include the destination LSP
> number also.
> 
> Please comment..
> 
> /
> Thanks & Regards,/ /
> Jai Hari M.K.
> IP Infusion/
> 
>  
> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 19:08:51 +0800
> From: _zhang.fei3@zte.com.cn_ <mailto:zhang.fei3@zte.com.cn>
> To: "_ccamp@ietf.org_ <mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>" <_ccamp@ietf.org_
> <mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>>, "_mpls@ietf.org_ <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>"
> <_mpls@ietf.org_ <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>>
> Subject: [mpls] Request comments on
>       draft-zhang-ccamp-mpls-tp-rsvpte-ext-tunnel-num-00
> Message-ID:
>      
> <_OF3E7FD488.405BF0C5-ON4825792C.00351CBE-4825792C.003D3BA7@zte.com.cn_
> <mailto:OF3E7FD488.405BF0C5-ON4825792C.00351CBE-4825792C.003D3BA7@zte.com.cn>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> Hi all
> 
> We've submitted a draft for the group's consideration, below is the link:_
> __http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-ccamp-mpls-tp-rsvpte-ext-tunnel-num-00_.
> 
> This draft is about the supporting of MPLS-TP Maintenance Identifiers. As
> described in _http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6370_, at each end point, a
> tunnel is uniquely identified by the end point's Node_ID and a locally
> assigned tunnel number, which allow a compact form for the MEP_ID, and
> extensions will be required to GMPLS to support these identifiers.
> Furthermore, _http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6373_ addressed this issue in
> section 4.4.8.
> 
> Obviously, this issue can be solved by defining a new object, such as
> Connection Object as described in this draft, or a new sub-TLV call MEP_ID
> can be carried back to the ingress LSR in Resv message when the "CV" flag
> of the OAM Function Flags Sub-TLV is set, which may be considered in the
> subsequent version of the draft_
> __http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-mpls-tp-oam-ext-06_.
> 
> We hope you'll find the time to look through the draft and comment on the
> list, help judge which way is more suitable before the WG meeting in
> Taipei, and hope that we'll be able to have a fruitful and lively
> discussion there.
> 
> 
> Best,
> 
> Fei
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

From lberger@labn.net  Tue Oct 25 14:45:33 2011
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Cc: Jonathan Harrison <jon.harrison@metaswitch.com>, "ccamp@ietf.org" <ccamp@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Comment regarding draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-02
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Acee,

In short I agree with you 100%.  See below for more detailed  responses
in-line.

On 10/24/2011 11:00 AM, Acee Lindem wrote:
> Hi Fatai,
> 
> On Oct 23, 2011, at 11:03 PM, Zhangfatai wrote:
> 
> Hi Acee,
> 
> You said as follows, please see inline.
> ===============================================================
> 
> It doesn't explicitly prevent it but it does so implicitly. If you
> advertise multiple OSPF TE LSAs with a top-level Link TLV for the
> same link, there is no way to correlate them since RFC 3630 does
> specify that the Link ID sub-TLV may only occur at most once.
> 
> The Link Type and Link ID sub-TLVs are mandatory, i.e., must appear
> exactly once. All other sub-TLVs defined here may occur at most once.
> These restrictions need not apply to future sub-TLVs. Unrecognized
> sub-TLVs are ignored.
> 
> [Fatai] I think the restriction for this paragraph should be in the
> scope of one Link TLV or one LSA. If a TE link is advertised by
> multiple LSAs (with multiple Link TLVs), the Link ID and Link type
> MUST be advertised respectively, and then we can use Link ID and Link
> Type to correlate them for the same TE link.
> 
> RFC 3630 makes no provision for multiple OSPF TE LSAs with a
> top-level Link TLV for a given link. It could be made to work as you
> suggest but it certainly isn't specified.
> 
> While I admit there is some ambiguity here, I concur with Jonathan
> that this would result in incompatibility problems with existing
> implementations. 

I completely agree.  I'd need to check code to see if the implementation
I have easy access to will handle this case on receive, but I can't
think of case where such usage would be generated.

> Do we really think have more information for a
> single link than will normally fit in an LSA that be advertised over
> a standard ethernet link (MTU 1500 bytes) without IP fragmentation?
> If this is a rare case, I'd say that it is ok for the LSA to become
> large, i.e., require IP fragmentation for advertisement. If the we
> expect the constraint information to normally require fragmentation,
> I'd recommend a new top-level TLV, the Link-Constraint TLV.

Again, agree with both comments/recommendations.  Perhaps call it the
Link-Fragment TLV, or Partial Link TLV...

> 
> [Fatai] I think for the typical cases, one LSA (or one Link TLV) may
> be sufficient for a TE link, but some people like to give some rare
> or extreme examples to justify their thought. Compared with a new
> top-level TLV, I would say I would like to re-use the existing
> top-level Link TLV because this follows the “G” of GMPLS.
> 
> I'll let Lou and other comment on what is more consistent with GMPLS.

Well this is something for the WG to discuss.  My personal (not chair)
perspective seems aligned with yours (Acee's).

> However, I share the concern that this extension will be incompatible
> with existing implementations.

Could not agree more.  My impression (as chair) is that much of the WSON
related discussion has to do with the degree that the current WG drafts
are open to different interpretations (and possible incompatible
implementations).  I think the more specific/detailed we can make them,
the faster the open discussions will be resolved.

Lou

> 
> Thanks,
> Acees
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Fatai
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Acee Lindem [mailto:acee.lindem@ericsson.com]
> Sent: 2011年10月20日 21:53
> To: Zhangfatai
> Cc: Jonathan Harrison; draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te@tools.ietf.org>; ccamp@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Comment regarding draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-02
> 
> Hi Fatai,
> 
> On Oct 20, 2011, at 8:43 AM, Zhangfatai wrote:
> 
> Hi Jonathan,
> 
> I agree with you that RFC 3630 does not state explicitly how an OSPF implementation should generate multiple TE link TLVs for the same link.
> 
> I only saw a sentence to describe the relationship between Link TLV and LSA:  “Only one Link TLV shall be carried in each LSA, allowing for fine granularity changes in topology.”
> 
> However, obviously, RFC 3630 does not provent to advertise a TE link information  by multiple LSAs (including only one link TLV respectively).
> 
> It doesn't explicitly prevent it but it does so implicitly. If you advertise multiple OSPF TE LSAs with a top-level Link TLV for the same link, there is no way to correlate them since RFC 3630 does specify that the Link ID sub-TLV may only occur at most once.
> 
>    The Link Type and Link ID sub-TLVs are mandatory, i.e., must appear
> exactly once. All other sub-TLVs defined here may occur at most
> once. These restrictions need not apply to future sub-TLVs.
> Unrecognized sub-TLVs are ignored.
> 
> 
> While I admit there is some ambiguity here, I concur with Jonathan that this would result in incompatibility problems with existing implementations. Do we really think have more information for a single link than will normally fit in an LSA that be advertised over a standard ethernet link (MTU 1500 bytes) without IP fragmentation? If this is a rare case, I'd say that it is ok for the LSA to become large, i.e., require IP fragmentation for advertisement. If the we expect the constraint information to normally require fragmentation, I'd recommend a new top-level TLV, the Link-Constraint TLV.
> 
> Thanks, Acee
> 
> 
> This draft [GEN-OSPF] describes the extensions to RFC 3630, so it can define these procedures.
> 
> I agree with you that we should have clear descriptions on your three points. For the first point, I think this draft has stated this explicitly in Section 4 and 5.1. For the other two points, we need some refinements to address them.
> 
> We will add some text to address them in the next version.
> 
> ==================================================================================
> -       A clear statement that multiple TLVs are allowed for the same link.
> -       Rules specifying how sub-TLVs can be distributed across the multiple TLVs (e.g. there must be at most one Available Labels sub-TLV across all TLVs for the same link).
> -       Rules specifying how multiple TLVs should be interpreted.  (This should be simple if the rules for building the TLVs are well defined.)
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Fatai
> 
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Harrison
> Sent: 2011年10月20日 15:23
> To: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te@tools.ietf.org>
> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
> Subject: [CCAMP] Comment regarding draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-02
> 
> Hi authors,
> 
> I don’t know if you’ve been following the thread below, but the discussion appears to have some relevance to draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-02.
> 
> The discussion below is about the Link TLV defined in RFC 3630.  The problem is that RFC 3630 is not clear whether information about a single link can be spread across more than one Link TLV.  Significantly, RFC 3630 does not provide any rules as to how an OSPF implementation should generate multiple TE link TLVs for the same link.  Similarly, it does not indicate how an OSPF implementation should handle multiple received Link TLVs for the same link.  For example, if an OSPF implementation receives two Link TLVs, both of which have the same link type and link ID sub-TLVs, but different values for the Unreserved bandwidth sub-TLV, what should it do?
> 
> In summary, the behavior of an OSPF implementation receiving multiple Link TLVs for the same link is not well defined.  I suspect that most OSPF implementations assume that there is at most one Link TLV for each link.  Hence the suggestion of section 5 of draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-02 for using multiple Link TLVs is likely to lead to interoperability problems.
> 
> The solution might be to define a new TLV type (Generic Link TLV?) for distributing the Port Label Restrictions, Available Labels and Available Shared Backup Label sub-TLVs in OSPF, along with a clear description of its use.  In particular, we need the following.
> -       A clear statement that multiple TLVs are allowed for the same link.
> -       Rules specifying how sub-TLVs can be distributed across the multiple TLVs (e.g. there must be at most one Available Labels sub-TLV across all TLVs for the same link).
> -       Rules specifying how multiple TLVs should be interpreted.  (This should be simple if the rules for building the TLVs are well defined.)
> 
> Let me know what you think.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jon
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Leeyoung
> Sent: 10 October 2011 17:36
> To: Andrea Zanardi
> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
> 
> Hi Andrea,
> 
> I see your point more clearly. You are concerned about the interoperability issue beyond the specification of the protocol to ensure two implementations should interoperate each other. To that end, please propose some text. Thanks.
> 
> Best Regards,
> Young
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrea Zanardi [mailto:andrea.zanardi@create-net.org]
> Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 11:53 AM
> To: Leeyoung
> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
> 
> Hi Young,
> 
> I think I clarified what I meant in my reply to Acee comments.
> 
> Anyway, my original comments were related to:
> 
> a.  the possibility of sending a TE Link LSA update (same ID, new sequence number)
>      without some sub-TLVs if their value is unchanged, as I understood when you wrote
> 
>      "All other sub-TLV are optional and may occur at most once
>       (when there are enough changes from the previous period that deserve an update)
>       and _need not_ be included in the TE Link TLV when there is no need for updating."
> 
>     (but correct me if I misunderstood your sentence)
> 
>     This clearly can't work due to how the TE DB synchronization works.
> 
>     Note that also creating a new LSA (new ID) with only the changed sub-TLVs doesn't
>     work, as you will have two different values for the same sub-TLV
>     (as the old LSA and the new LSA are both present in the TE DB)
> 
>     I read the "may occur at least once" in RFC 3630 as:
>     "it may be omitted if it does not apply to the link";
>     but if it applies, it must be present in all updates
>     (unless you want to clear its value)
> 
> 
> b. the fact that RFC 3630 allows the possibility of splitting the
>     set of sub-TLVs of a TE Link in different LSAs (different IDs)
>     [the implementation I checked doesn't support this scenario]
> 
>     This could be a matter of interpretation; but as it's not explicitly
>     stated, the simplest interpretation is usually the one accepted.
> 
> I perfectly agree that splitting a set of attributes related to
> a 'logical' instance in two or more different LSAs is a viable solution
> (as far as you keep the subsets disjoint and the support for this
> solution is explicitly requested; and this is somehow stated
> in the draft in Chap. 3.2.1).
> 
> Even if, in my opinion, would be preferable to have some rule
> defined; especially if the reason for the splitting is the dynamics
> of the updates and not just the size.
> 
> Sorry if there has been any misunderstanding.
> 
> Regards
> Andrea
> 
> 
> On 10/08/2011 12:46 AM, Leeyoung wrote:
>> Hi Andrea,
>>
>> Sorry for my late response to your questions. Please see in-line for my comments. Thanks.
>>
>> Young
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Andrea Zanardi [mailto:andrea.zanardi@create-net.org]
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 9:10 AM
>> To: Leeyoung
>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>
>> Hi Young,
>>
>> with respect to the TE DB management of missing sub-TLVs in LSA updates,
>> I checked the behavior of a commercial OSPF-TE implementation.
>>
>> YOUNG>>  Here I assumed the LSAs are two different LSAs (identified by the LSA ID).
>>
>> The point is that, if the TE DB is the set of LSAs, that's how it works
>> as the TE DB contains only the latest version of an LSA instance
>> and you can not merge the content of different LSA versions
>> (you could keep an internal model for the links with their attributes
>> updated independently, but when two neighbors synchronize their DB,
>> they synchronize the LSA set, not the internal models).
>>
>> YOUNG>>  Here is a bit confusing. The TE DB synchronization process checks the same LSA and the sequence number (which you are referring as the version of an LSA instance). When the node identifies the same LSA with different sequence number, then it flushes the LSA with the lower sequence number. But the TE DB synch process does not check each other for different LSAs (which is identified by the LSA ID).
>>
>>
>>
>> With respect to RFC 3630, it states:
>>
>>    2.4.2.  Link TLV
>>
>>       The Link TLV describes a single link.
>>
>> I read 'describes' as 'fully describes' (not 'partially describes');
>> so I don't see where it supports/suggests the division of the attributes on multiple
>> LSA instances and that's why I think that multiple LSA instances for the
>> same link is not supported by current implementations.
>>
>> YOUNG>>  RFC3630 differentiates the mandatory element from other entities that can appear "at most" once.
>> This is from RFC 3630 Section 2.4.2:
>>
>>     The Link Type and Link ID sub-TLVs are mandatory, i.e., must appear
>>     exactly once.  All other sub-TLVs defined here may occur at most
>>     once.  These restrictions need not apply to future sub-TLVs.
>>     Unrecognized sub-TLVs are ignored.
>>
>> YOUNG>>  It does not mandate other sub-TLVs to appear exactly once; it rather says it may occur "at most once" -- sound like to me
>> YOUNG>>  this is an optional element.
>>
>> It's a possible implementation and it's fine to suggest it for other top level TLVs,
>> but it's not the one defined by RFC 3630 for TE Links, in my opinion.
>>
>> My point is in avoiding ambiguities: if the support for multiple LSA instances for the
>> same entity top TLV is requested, it should be explicitly stated as mandatory
>> (possibly providing explicit rules for the subdivision, as in Chap. 3 of the draft).
>>
>>
>> YOUNG>>  When you have different sub-sets of TLV's to be packaged under the OPSF TE LSA, you can use a different LSA ID from the previously used one to avoid ambiguities. Then these are simply two different LSAs and would not confuse the TE DB sync process as well as flooding process.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Andrea
>>
>> On 10/03/2011 09:34 PM, Leeyoung wrote:
>>> Hi Andrea,
>>>
>>> Thanks for your interest and input to this issue.
>>>
>>> My overall point was that the current GMPLS TE LSA (per RFC 3630) does not specify detail implementations as to how to divide up the TE Link TLVs into static vs. dynamic nor how to use multiple TE LSAs. The current WSON document follows a similar document philosophy with the GMPLS predecessor.
>>>
>>> Regarding your point on how the TE DB works in regard to missing sub-TLVs are deleted seems to me a particular implementation, which is most simplistic in nature.
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>> Young
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Andrea Zanardi
>>> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 9:14 AM
>>> To: Leeyoung
>>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>
>>> Hi Young,
>>>
>>> I was following the discussion and I have a doubt about
>>> your example related to the TE Link TLV.
>>>
>>> It's true that the attributes sub-TLV are not mandatory per RFC 3630,
>>> but I don't think that means that they can be not included in an LSA update
>>> if unchanged (implying that the previous value persists).
>>>
>>> As for my understanding of how OSPF-TE works, the managed TE DB entity is the LSA.
>>> When an LSA update is processed, the previous version is deleted from the TE DB
>>> and it is replaced by the new one: link attributes related to missing sub-TLV are
>>> deleted, so they must be present even if unchanged.
>>>
>>> In theory, the set of link attributes could be statically divided
>>> in two different LSAs instances (updated independently),
>>> but I don't think current implementations handle this scenario
>>> (also because, in my opinion, it's not suggested by RFC 3630 and
>>>     it gives no rule on how to divide them).
>>>
>>> But I ask to the mailing list if this is the correct interpretation.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Andrea
>>>
>>> On 09/30/2011 11:16 PM, Leeyoung wrote:
>>>> Hi Pierre,
>>>>
>>>> I got your point. Let me ask you this question. In the current GMPLS OSPF TE Link TLV are defined under Opaque TE LSA with the following attributes:
>>>>
>>>> - TE Metric
>>>> - max B/W
>>>> - max reservable b/w
>>>> - unreserved b/w
>>>> - Admin Group
>>>> - Link Protection Type
>>>> - SRLG
>>>> - ISCD
>>>> - etc.
>>>>
>>>> And these are a mixture of static and dynamic information and yet they are assembled together as one TE Link TLV. For instance the ISCD is quite similar to Resource Block Info in that it does not change often unless there are new elements added in the node or configuration changes and yet it is packaged together with other dynamic information.
>>>>
>>>> Why?
>>>>
>>>> There are many ways to keep static/unchanged information from being flooded. Only the Link Type and Link ID which are mandatory in the TE Link TLV per RFC3630. All other sub-TLV are optional and may occur at most once (when there are enough changes from the previous period that deserve an update) and need not be included in the TE Link TLV when there is no need for updating.
>>>>
>>>> I really don't see the need for a separate top-level TLV and/or a separate LSA for the Resource Block information.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Young
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) [mailto:pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.com]
>>>> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 9:39 AM
>>>> To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
>>>> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>
>>>> Hi Young,
>>>>
>>>> I understand the content of your answer, but I'm not satisfied with it.
>>>> My concern deals with providing a unique reading/interpretation of the OSPF-TE extensions.
>>>> We would like to make sure that any implementation complying to the drafts would provide the same LSAs when applied to the same network.
>>>> With this perspective in mind, we wish to get drafts with sufficient documentation to make sure the LSA design process to be depicted, by design rules.
>>>>
>>>> Hence the content of your answer leaving me the "opportunity to do as I wish", is not pleasing me, I would rather have strict rules, and discussions with the WG on the design of those.
>>>> That is why a first design rule, we could agree on is: to gather the Resource Block Information TLVs inside a dedicated LSA, possibly with a dedicated top-level TLV (which in my mind allows to enforce this design rule).
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> - Pierre
>>>>
>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>> De : Leeyoung [mailto:leeyoung@huawei.com]
>>>> Envoyé : mercredi 28 septembre 2011 00:06
>>>> À : PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE); ccamp@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
>>>> Objet : RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>
>>>> Hi Pierre,
>>>>
>>>> Please see-inline for my reply to your first point.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Young
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) [mailto:pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.com]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 3:28 AM
>>>> To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
>>>> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>
>>>> Hi Young, and CCAMPers,
>>>>
>>>> I was off the mailing lists for the last two weeks and being back I notice a lot of exchanges, which I'm very glad of.
>>>> I've also noticed many drafts have been updated.
>>>> Concerning this specific draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06, I wanted to comment section 3.
>>>> Back in Quebec, I expressed my point of view (shared with Cyril, Julien and Giovanni) that current drafts were lacking guidance regarding the way to design LSAs that were to depict an WSON node with OEOs.
>>>> This section 3 provides additional material to help designing the LSA.
>>>> I would like to know whether authors are willing to pursue further in this direction, which is to my mind a real corner stone, that would help everyone agree on a solution.
>>>> A first point could concern the Resource Block Information (reminder:<ResourceBlockInfo>    ::= ([<ResourceSet>]<InputConstraints>    <ProcessingCapabilities>    <OutputConstraints>):
>>>>         We all agree that these information are static, that we should not replicate this TLV whatever the number not the layout of OEO boards of a given type.
>>>> Then, we could dedicate a specific independant flooding entity. This would be defined once for all, and that would not leave room to different interpretations.
>>>> What about this first point?
>>>>
>>>> YOUNG>>    If I understand you correctly, what you are saying is since the Resource Block Info sub-TLV is very static in nature, advertisement of this sub-TLV should be treated differently from the rest of static-TLVs (which may change over time). Is this what you are saying?
>>>>
>>>> If my interpretation of your comment is correct,
>>>>
>>>> - The current mechanism allows what you want: Please see the first paragraph in Section 3.2
>>>>       "In the highly unlikely event that a WSON sub-TLV by itself would
>>>>       result in an LSA exceeding the MTU, all five WSON specific sub-TLVs
>>>>       in this document provide mechanisms that allow them to be subdivided
>>>>       into smaller sub-TLVs that can be sent in separate OSPF TE LSAs."
>>>>
>>>> According to this clause, you can separate the Resource Block Info Sub-TLV as the sole entry defined in the Optical Node property TLV in a separate TE LSA from the rest if you will. Nothing prevents this particular way of packaging. (Isn't this what you meant "a specific independent flooding entity"?)
>>>>
>>>> - Please let me know if this explanation satisfies you. Thanks --- Young
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Pierre
>>>>
>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>> De : ccamp-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Leeyoung Envoyé : jeudi 15 septembre 2011 21:59 À : ccamp@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp@ietf.org> Objet : Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> After 05 version publication, Acee provided a number of valuable comments and suggestions. This revision (06) reflects those changes. Please note the following updates:
>>>>
>>>> - Change the title of the draft to "GMPLS OSPF Enhancement..." from "OSPF Enhancement..." to make sure the changes apply to the GMPLS OSPF rather than the base OSPF.
>>>>
>>>> - Add specific OSPF procedures on how sub-TLVs are packaged per [RFC3630] and editorial change including avoiding "multiple instances of TE LSA" to "multiple TE LSAs".
>>>>
>>>> Your comments are always appreciated. Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Best Regards.
>>>> Young
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf.org<mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 2:48 PM
>>>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org<mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org>
>>>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
>>>> Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>
>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.
>>>>
>>>>   Title           : GMPLS OSPF Enhancement for Signal and Network Element Compatibility for Wavelength Switched Optical Networks
>>>>   Author(s)       : Young Lee
>>>>                              Greg M. Bernstein
>>>>   Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>   Pages           : 14
>>>>   Date            : 2011-09-15
>>>>
>>>>       This document provides GMPLS OSPF routing enhancements to support
>>>>       signal compatibility constraints associated with WSON network
>>>>       elements. These routing enhancements are required in common optical
>>>>       or hybrid electro-optical networks where not all of the optical
>>>>       signals in the network are compatible with all network elements
>>>>       participating in the network.
>>>>
>>>>       This compatibility constraint model is applicable to common optical
>>>>       or hybrid electro optical systems such as OEO switches, regenerators,
>>>>       and wavelength converters since such systems can be limited to
>>>>       processing only certain types of WSON signals.
>>>>
> 
> 
> --
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Andrea Zanardi
> CREATE-NET
> Engineering & Fast Prototyping (ENGINE) Area
> Senior Engineer
> Via alla Cascata 56/D - 38123 Povo Trento (Italy)
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> --------------------------------------------------------
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From lberger@labn.net  Tue Oct 25 15:37:13 2011
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From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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Subject: [CCAMP] some comments on gmpls-ospf-g709v3-00
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Authors,
	Nice job bringing this work to the point where it's been accepted as a
WG draft.  I have a few technical comments/questions on the draft that
I'd like to discuss with you and the WG (with chair hat off):

1) Switching types/caps

You say:
   A single ISCD MAY be used for the advertisement of unbundled or
   bundled links supporting homogeneous multiplexing hierarchies and the
   same Tributary Slot Granularity (TSG).  A different ISCD MUST be used
   for each different muxing hierarchy (muxing tree in the following
   examples) and different TSG supported within the TE Link, if it
   includes component links with differing characteristics.

Given this restriction why not use different switch caps, one for each
ODU (H) type, all which use the same ISCD format?

Unless I'm mistaken this would simplify operation in the simple/single
layer cases.  It also doesn't add any real complexity to the more
complex cases.  (For example, in your example the switch cap would be
set to correspond to the signal type used with #stages=0.)

3) SCSI TLV formatting

The field descriptions are missing format related conformance (RFC2119)
language.

3) SCSI TLV procedures

You have defined the formats of the TLVs in Section 4.1, but not
explicitly how they are to be used.  Some RFC2119 language really is
needed to cover how the SCSI is to be encoded and parsed.  At a minimum,
any TLV inclusion, ordering requirements, and exception handling should
be covered.  (For example, your examples always show a particular
ordering relative to Stage#, is this required, recommended, or just a
possibility.  You have some informative language, which is great, but
you also need some RFC2119 language.)

4) Type 2 and Type 3 TLVs

It seems that type 2 and type 3 TLVs are used in tandem, i.e., both are
either present or absent.  Is this correct?  If so, they should be
combined into a single TLV to simplify operation (e.g., there is no
error case where only one is present to check for.)

5) Note that the Encoding field may be impacted by the still unresolved
discussion related to TSG/PT that took place a couple of weeks ago on
the list.  (I'm personally leaning towards representing PT in encoding
as this better matches what happens in the data plane and is more
closely aligned to the general definition of the encoding field.)

6) Finally, some nits:
s/[OTN-INFO], the OSPF-TE/[OTN-INFO], OSPF-TE
s/list of them/list
s/Priority :8 bits/Priority (8 bits):
s/infer/imply

Much thanks,
Lou

From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Tue Oct 25 19:49:26 2011
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane =
Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Signa=
ling Extensions for the evolving G.709 Optical Transport Networks Control
	Author(s)       : Fatai Zhang
                          Guoying Zhang
                          Sergio Belotti
                          Daniele Ceccarelli
                          Khuzema Pithewan
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709v3-01.txt
	Pages           : 25
	Date            : 2011-10-25

   Recent progress in ITU-T Recommendation G.709 standardization has
   introduced new ODU containers (ODU0, ODU4, ODU2e and ODUflex) and
   enhanced Optical Transport Networking (OTN) flexibility. Several
   recent documents have proposed ways to modify GMPLS signaling
   protocols to support these new OTN features.

   It is important that a single solution is developed for use in GMPLS
   signaling and routing protocols. This solution must support ODUk
   multiplexing capabilities, address all of the new features, be
   acceptable to all equipment vendors, and be extensible considering
   continued OTN evolution.

   This document describes the extensions to the Generalized Multi-
   Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS) signaling to control the evolving
   Optical Transport Networks (OTN) addressing ODUk multiplexing and new
   features including ODU0, ODU4, ODU2e and ODUflex.





A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709v3=
-01.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709v3-=
01.txt

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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709v3-01.txt
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Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:35:08 +0000
From: Zhangfatai <zhangfatai@huawei.com>
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To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, Acee Lindem <acee.lindem@ericsson.com>
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Thread-topic: [CCAMP] Comment regarding draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-02
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References: <A6D5F431F7B03F4181E18B9541ED411F165B6245@ENFICSMBX1.datcon.co.uk> <F82A4B6D50F9464B8EBA55651F541CF825C866AE@SZXEML520-MBX.china.huawei.com> <8E6DCB79-DEB7-4CBC-9641-54EADF945DFA@ericsson.com> <F82A4B6D50F9464B8EBA55651F541CF825C888E6@SZXEML520-MBX.china.huawei.com> <D5430C13-CC38-4AD6-B24D-328C60911D30@ericsson.com> <4EA72DFA.80605@labn.net>
Cc: Jonathan Harrison <jon.harrison@metaswitch.com>, "ccamp@ietf.org" <ccamp@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Comment regarding draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-02
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Cc: Jonathan Harrison <jon.harrison@metaswitch.com>, "ccamp@ietf.org" <ccamp@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Comment regarding draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-02
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Fatai,
	

On 10/26/2011 5:35 AM, Zhangfatai wrote:
> Hi Lou, Acee and all,
> 
> I am fine to have a new top level Link TLV to include the generic link information if the WG like that.
> 
> To avoid this work back and forth, please share your concerns before we update this draft.

I'm not sure what additional input you're looking for.  My only
additional comment is:
> I think the more specific/detailed we can make them,
> the faster the open discussions will be resolved.

In other words, I believe that some more conformance language and
specific requirements on formatting and TLV construction/parsing would
be beneficial.

Lou

> 
> 
> Thanks
>  
> Fatai
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net] 
> Sent: 2011年10月26日 5:46
> To: Acee Lindem
> Cc: Zhangfatai; Jonathan Harrison; ccamp@ietf.org; draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te@tools.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Comment regarding draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-02
> 
> Acee,
> 
> In short I agree with you 100%.  See below for more detailed  responses
> in-line.
> 
> On 10/24/2011 11:00 AM, Acee Lindem wrote:
>> Hi Fatai,
>>
>> On Oct 23, 2011, at 11:03 PM, Zhangfatai wrote:
>>
>> Hi Acee,
>>
>> You said as follows, please see inline.
>> ===============================================================
>>
>> It doesn't explicitly prevent it but it does so implicitly. If you
>> advertise multiple OSPF TE LSAs with a top-level Link TLV for the
>> same link, there is no way to correlate them since RFC 3630 does
>> specify that the Link ID sub-TLV may only occur at most once.
>>
>> The Link Type and Link ID sub-TLVs are mandatory, i.e., must appear
>> exactly once. All other sub-TLVs defined here may occur at most once.
>> These restrictions need not apply to future sub-TLVs. Unrecognized
>> sub-TLVs are ignored.
>>
>> [Fatai] I think the restriction for this paragraph should be in the
>> scope of one Link TLV or one LSA. If a TE link is advertised by
>> multiple LSAs (with multiple Link TLVs), the Link ID and Link type
>> MUST be advertised respectively, and then we can use Link ID and Link
>> Type to correlate them for the same TE link.
>>
>> RFC 3630 makes no provision for multiple OSPF TE LSAs with a
>> top-level Link TLV for a given link. It could be made to work as you
>> suggest but it certainly isn't specified.
>>
>> While I admit there is some ambiguity here, I concur with Jonathan
>> that this would result in incompatibility problems with existing
>> implementations. 
> 
> I completely agree.  I'd need to check code to see if the implementation
> I have easy access to will handle this case on receive, but I can't
> think of case where such usage would be generated.
> 
>> Do we really think have more information for a
>> single link than will normally fit in an LSA that be advertised over
>> a standard ethernet link (MTU 1500 bytes) without IP fragmentation?
>> If this is a rare case, I'd say that it is ok for the LSA to become
>> large, i.e., require IP fragmentation for advertisement. If the we
>> expect the constraint information to normally require fragmentation,
>> I'd recommend a new top-level TLV, the Link-Constraint TLV.
> 
> Again, agree with both comments/recommendations.  Perhaps call it the
> Link-Fragment TLV, or Partial Link TLV...
> 
>>
>> [Fatai] I think for the typical cases, one LSA (or one Link TLV) may
>> be sufficient for a TE link, but some people like to give some rare
>> or extreme examples to justify their thought. Compared with a new
>> top-level TLV, I would say I would like to re-use the existing
>> top-level Link TLV because this follows the “G” of GMPLS.
>>
>> I'll let Lou and other comment on what is more consistent with GMPLS.
> 
> Well this is something for the WG to discuss.  My personal (not chair)
> perspective seems aligned with yours (Acee's).
> 
>> However, I share the concern that this extension will be incompatible
>> with existing implementations.
> 
> Could not agree more.  My impression (as chair) is that much of the WSON
> related discussion has to do with the degree that the current WG drafts
> are open to different interpretations (and possible incompatible
> implementations).  I think the more specific/detailed we can make them,
> the faster the open discussions will be resolved.
> 
> Lou
> 
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Acees
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Fatai
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Acee Lindem [mailto:acee.lindem@ericsson.com]
>> Sent: 2011年10月20日 21:53
>> To: Zhangfatai
>> Cc: Jonathan Harrison; draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te@tools.ietf.org>; ccamp@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Comment regarding draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-02
>>
>> Hi Fatai,
>>
>> On Oct 20, 2011, at 8:43 AM, Zhangfatai wrote:
>>
>> Hi Jonathan,
>>
>> I agree with you that RFC 3630 does not state explicitly how an OSPF implementation should generate multiple TE link TLVs for the same link.
>>
>> I only saw a sentence to describe the relationship between Link TLV and LSA:  “Only one Link TLV shall be carried in each LSA, allowing for fine granularity changes in topology.”
>>
>> However, obviously, RFC 3630 does not provent to advertise a TE link information  by multiple LSAs (including only one link TLV respectively).
>>
>> It doesn't explicitly prevent it but it does so implicitly. If you advertise multiple OSPF TE LSAs with a top-level Link TLV for the same link, there is no way to correlate them since RFC 3630 does specify that the Link ID sub-TLV may only occur at most once.
>>
>>    The Link Type and Link ID sub-TLVs are mandatory, i.e., must appear
>> exactly once. All other sub-TLVs defined here may occur at most
>> once. These restrictions need not apply to future sub-TLVs.
>> Unrecognized sub-TLVs are ignored.
>>
>>
>> While I admit there is some ambiguity here, I concur with Jonathan that this would result in incompatibility problems with existing implementations. Do we really think have more information for a single link than will normally fit in an LSA that be advertised over a standard ethernet link (MTU 1500 bytes) without IP fragmentation? If this is a rare case, I'd say that it is ok for the LSA to become large, i.e., require IP fragmentation for advertisement. If the we expect the constraint information to normally require fragmentation, I'd recommend a new top-level TLV, the Link-Constraint TLV.
>>
>> Thanks, Acee
>>
>>
>> This draft [GEN-OSPF] describes the extensions to RFC 3630, so it can define these procedures.
>>
>> I agree with you that we should have clear descriptions on your three points. For the first point, I think this draft has stated this explicitly in Section 4 and 5.1. For the other two points, we need some refinements to address them.
>>
>> We will add some text to address them in the next version.
>>
>> ==================================================================================
>> -       A clear statement that multiple TLVs are allowed for the same link.
>> -       Rules specifying how sub-TLVs can be distributed across the multiple TLVs (e.g. there must be at most one Available Labels sub-TLV across all TLVs for the same link).
>> -       Rules specifying how multiple TLVs should be interpreted.  (This should be simple if the rules for building the TLVs are well defined.)
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Fatai
>>
>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Harrison
>> Sent: 2011年10月20日 15:23
>> To: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te@tools.ietf.org>
>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
>> Subject: [CCAMP] Comment regarding draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-02
>>
>> Hi authors,
>>
>> I don’t know if you’ve been following the thread below, but the discussion appears to have some relevance to draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-02.
>>
>> The discussion below is about the Link TLV defined in RFC 3630.  The problem is that RFC 3630 is not clear whether information about a single link can be spread across more than one Link TLV.  Significantly, RFC 3630 does not provide any rules as to how an OSPF implementation should generate multiple TE link TLVs for the same link.  Similarly, it does not indicate how an OSPF implementation should handle multiple received Link TLVs for the same link.  For example, if an OSPF implementation receives two Link TLVs, both of which have the same link type and link ID sub-TLVs, but different values for the Unreserved bandwidth sub-TLV, what should it do?
>>
>> In summary, the behavior of an OSPF implementation receiving multiple Link TLVs for the same link is not well defined.  I suspect that most OSPF implementations assume that there is at most one Link TLV for each link.  Hence the suggestion of section 5 of draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-02 for using multiple Link TLVs is likely to lead to interoperability problems.
>>
>> The solution might be to define a new TLV type (Generic Link TLV?) for distributing the Port Label Restrictions, Available Labels and Available Shared Backup Label sub-TLVs in OSPF, along with a clear description of its use.  In particular, we need the following.
>> -       A clear statement that multiple TLVs are allowed for the same link.
>> -       Rules specifying how sub-TLVs can be distributed across the multiple TLVs (e.g. there must be at most one Available Labels sub-TLV across all TLVs for the same link).
>> -       Rules specifying how multiple TLVs should be interpreted.  (This should be simple if the rules for building the TLVs are well defined.)
>>
>> Let me know what you think.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Jon
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Leeyoung
>> Sent: 10 October 2011 17:36
>> To: Andrea Zanardi
>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>
>> Hi Andrea,
>>
>> I see your point more clearly. You are concerned about the interoperability issue beyond the specification of the protocol to ensure two implementations should interoperate each other. To that end, please propose some text. Thanks.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Young
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Andrea Zanardi [mailto:andrea.zanardi@create-net.org]
>> Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 11:53 AM
>> To: Leeyoung
>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>
>> Hi Young,
>>
>> I think I clarified what I meant in my reply to Acee comments.
>>
>> Anyway, my original comments were related to:
>>
>> a.  the possibility of sending a TE Link LSA update (same ID, new sequence number)
>>      without some sub-TLVs if their value is unchanged, as I understood when you wrote
>>
>>      "All other sub-TLV are optional and may occur at most once
>>       (when there are enough changes from the previous period that deserve an update)
>>       and _need not_ be included in the TE Link TLV when there is no need for updating."
>>
>>     (but correct me if I misunderstood your sentence)
>>
>>     This clearly can't work due to how the TE DB synchronization works.
>>
>>     Note that also creating a new LSA (new ID) with only the changed sub-TLVs doesn't
>>     work, as you will have two different values for the same sub-TLV
>>     (as the old LSA and the new LSA are both present in the TE DB)
>>
>>     I read the "may occur at least once" in RFC 3630 as:
>>     "it may be omitted if it does not apply to the link";
>>     but if it applies, it must be present in all updates
>>     (unless you want to clear its value)
>>
>>
>> b. the fact that RFC 3630 allows the possibility of splitting the
>>     set of sub-TLVs of a TE Link in different LSAs (different IDs)
>>     [the implementation I checked doesn't support this scenario]
>>
>>     This could be a matter of interpretation; but as it's not explicitly
>>     stated, the simplest interpretation is usually the one accepted.
>>
>> I perfectly agree that splitting a set of attributes related to
>> a 'logical' instance in two or more different LSAs is a viable solution
>> (as far as you keep the subsets disjoint and the support for this
>> solution is explicitly requested; and this is somehow stated
>> in the draft in Chap. 3.2.1).
>>
>> Even if, in my opinion, would be preferable to have some rule
>> defined; especially if the reason for the splitting is the dynamics
>> of the updates and not just the size.
>>
>> Sorry if there has been any misunderstanding.
>>
>> Regards
>> Andrea
>>
>>
>> On 10/08/2011 12:46 AM, Leeyoung wrote:
>>> Hi Andrea,
>>>
>>> Sorry for my late response to your questions. Please see in-line for my comments. Thanks.
>>>
>>> Young
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Andrea Zanardi [mailto:andrea.zanardi@create-net.org]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 9:10 AM
>>> To: Leeyoung
>>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>
>>> Hi Young,
>>>
>>> with respect to the TE DB management of missing sub-TLVs in LSA updates,
>>> I checked the behavior of a commercial OSPF-TE implementation.
>>>
>>> YOUNG>>  Here I assumed the LSAs are two different LSAs (identified by the LSA ID).
>>>
>>> The point is that, if the TE DB is the set of LSAs, that's how it works
>>> as the TE DB contains only the latest version of an LSA instance
>>> and you can not merge the content of different LSA versions
>>> (you could keep an internal model for the links with their attributes
>>> updated independently, but when two neighbors synchronize their DB,
>>> they synchronize the LSA set, not the internal models).
>>>
>>> YOUNG>>  Here is a bit confusing. The TE DB synchronization process checks the same LSA and the sequence number (which you are referring as the version of an LSA instance). When the node identifies the same LSA with different sequence number, then it flushes the LSA with the lower sequence number. But the TE DB synch process does not check each other for different LSAs (which is identified by the LSA ID).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> With respect to RFC 3630, it states:
>>>
>>>    2.4.2.  Link TLV
>>>
>>>       The Link TLV describes a single link.
>>>
>>> I read 'describes' as 'fully describes' (not 'partially describes');
>>> so I don't see where it supports/suggests the division of the attributes on multiple
>>> LSA instances and that's why I think that multiple LSA instances for the
>>> same link is not supported by current implementations.
>>>
>>> YOUNG>>  RFC3630 differentiates the mandatory element from other entities that can appear "at most" once.
>>> This is from RFC 3630 Section 2.4.2:
>>>
>>>     The Link Type and Link ID sub-TLVs are mandatory, i.e., must appear
>>>     exactly once.  All other sub-TLVs defined here may occur at most
>>>     once.  These restrictions need not apply to future sub-TLVs.
>>>     Unrecognized sub-TLVs are ignored.
>>>
>>> YOUNG>>  It does not mandate other sub-TLVs to appear exactly once; it rather says it may occur "at most once" -- sound like to me
>>> YOUNG>>  this is an optional element.
>>>
>>> It's a possible implementation and it's fine to suggest it for other top level TLVs,
>>> but it's not the one defined by RFC 3630 for TE Links, in my opinion.
>>>
>>> My point is in avoiding ambiguities: if the support for multiple LSA instances for the
>>> same entity top TLV is requested, it should be explicitly stated as mandatory
>>> (possibly providing explicit rules for the subdivision, as in Chap. 3 of the draft).
>>>
>>>
>>> YOUNG>>  When you have different sub-sets of TLV's to be packaged under the OPSF TE LSA, you can use a different LSA ID from the previously used one to avoid ambiguities. Then these are simply two different LSAs and would not confuse the TE DB sync process as well as flooding process.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Andrea
>>>
>>> On 10/03/2011 09:34 PM, Leeyoung wrote:
>>>> Hi Andrea,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your interest and input to this issue.
>>>>
>>>> My overall point was that the current GMPLS TE LSA (per RFC 3630) does not specify detail implementations as to how to divide up the TE Link TLVs into static vs. dynamic nor how to use multiple TE LSAs. The current WSON document follows a similar document philosophy with the GMPLS predecessor.
>>>>
>>>> Regarding your point on how the TE DB works in regard to missing sub-TLVs are deleted seems to me a particular implementation, which is most simplistic in nature.
>>>>
>>>> Best Regards,
>>>> Young
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Andrea Zanardi
>>>> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 9:14 AM
>>>> To: Leeyoung
>>>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>
>>>> Hi Young,
>>>>
>>>> I was following the discussion and I have a doubt about
>>>> your example related to the TE Link TLV.
>>>>
>>>> It's true that the attributes sub-TLV are not mandatory per RFC 3630,
>>>> but I don't think that means that they can be not included in an LSA update
>>>> if unchanged (implying that the previous value persists).
>>>>
>>>> As for my understanding of how OSPF-TE works, the managed TE DB entity is the LSA.
>>>> When an LSA update is processed, the previous version is deleted from the TE DB
>>>> and it is replaced by the new one: link attributes related to missing sub-TLV are
>>>> deleted, so they must be present even if unchanged.
>>>>
>>>> In theory, the set of link attributes could be statically divided
>>>> in two different LSAs instances (updated independently),
>>>> but I don't think current implementations handle this scenario
>>>> (also because, in my opinion, it's not suggested by RFC 3630 and
>>>>     it gives no rule on how to divide them).
>>>>
>>>> But I ask to the mailing list if this is the correct interpretation.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Andrea
>>>>
>>>> On 09/30/2011 11:16 PM, Leeyoung wrote:
>>>>> Hi Pierre,
>>>>>
>>>>> I got your point. Let me ask you this question. In the current GMPLS OSPF TE Link TLV are defined under Opaque TE LSA with the following attributes:
>>>>>
>>>>> - TE Metric
>>>>> - max B/W
>>>>> - max reservable b/w
>>>>> - unreserved b/w
>>>>> - Admin Group
>>>>> - Link Protection Type
>>>>> - SRLG
>>>>> - ISCD
>>>>> - etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> And these are a mixture of static and dynamic information and yet they are assembled together as one TE Link TLV. For instance the ISCD is quite similar to Resource Block Info in that it does not change often unless there are new elements added in the node or configuration changes and yet it is packaged together with other dynamic information.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why?
>>>>>
>>>>> There are many ways to keep static/unchanged information from being flooded. Only the Link Type and Link ID which are mandatory in the TE Link TLV per RFC3630. All other sub-TLV are optional and may occur at most once (when there are enough changes from the previous period that deserve an update) and need not be included in the TE Link TLV when there is no need for updating.
>>>>>
>>>>> I really don't see the need for a separate top-level TLV and/or a separate LSA for the Resource Block information.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Young
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) [mailto:pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.com]
>>>>> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 9:39 AM
>>>>> To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
>>>>> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Young,
>>>>>
>>>>> I understand the content of your answer, but I'm not satisfied with it.
>>>>> My concern deals with providing a unique reading/interpretation of the OSPF-TE extensions.
>>>>> We would like to make sure that any implementation complying to the drafts would provide the same LSAs when applied to the same network.
>>>>> With this perspective in mind, we wish to get drafts with sufficient documentation to make sure the LSA design process to be depicted, by design rules.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hence the content of your answer leaving me the "opportunity to do as I wish", is not pleasing me, I would rather have strict rules, and discussions with the WG on the design of those.
>>>>> That is why a first design rule, we could agree on is: to gather the Resource Block Information TLVs inside a dedicated LSA, possibly with a dedicated top-level TLV (which in my mind allows to enforce this design rule).
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> - Pierre
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>>> De : Leeyoung [mailto:leeyoung@huawei.com]
>>>>> Envoyé : mercredi 28 septembre 2011 00:06
>>>>> À : PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE); ccamp@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
>>>>> Objet : RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Pierre,
>>>>>
>>>>> Please see-inline for my reply to your first point.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Young
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) [mailto:pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.com]
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 3:28 AM
>>>>> To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
>>>>> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Young, and CCAMPers,
>>>>>
>>>>> I was off the mailing lists for the last two weeks and being back I notice a lot of exchanges, which I'm very glad of.
>>>>> I've also noticed many drafts have been updated.
>>>>> Concerning this specific draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06, I wanted to comment section 3.
>>>>> Back in Quebec, I expressed my point of view (shared with Cyril, Julien and Giovanni) that current drafts were lacking guidance regarding the way to design LSAs that were to depict an WSON node with OEOs.
>>>>> This section 3 provides additional material to help designing the LSA.
>>>>> I would like to know whether authors are willing to pursue further in this direction, which is to my mind a real corner stone, that would help everyone agree on a solution.
>>>>> A first point could concern the Resource Block Information (reminder:<ResourceBlockInfo>    ::= ([<ResourceSet>]<InputConstraints>    <ProcessingCapabilities>    <OutputConstraints>):
>>>>>         We all agree that these information are static, that we should not replicate this TLV whatever the number not the layout of OEO boards of a given type.
>>>>> Then, we could dedicate a specific independant flooding entity. This would be defined once for all, and that would not leave room to different interpretations.
>>>>> What about this first point?
>>>>>
>>>>> YOUNG>>    If I understand you correctly, what you are saying is since the Resource Block Info sub-TLV is very static in nature, advertisement of this sub-TLV should be treated differently from the rest of static-TLVs (which may change over time). Is this what you are saying?
>>>>>
>>>>> If my interpretation of your comment is correct,
>>>>>
>>>>> - The current mechanism allows what you want: Please see the first paragraph in Section 3.2
>>>>>       "In the highly unlikely event that a WSON sub-TLV by itself would
>>>>>       result in an LSA exceeding the MTU, all five WSON specific sub-TLVs
>>>>>       in this document provide mechanisms that allow them to be subdivided
>>>>>       into smaller sub-TLVs that can be sent in separate OSPF TE LSAs."
>>>>>
>>>>> According to this clause, you can separate the Resource Block Info Sub-TLV as the sole entry defined in the Optical Node property TLV in a separate TE LSA from the rest if you will. Nothing prevents this particular way of packaging. (Isn't this what you meant "a specific independent flooding entity"?)
>>>>>
>>>>> - Please let me know if this explanation satisfies you. Thanks --- Young
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Pierre
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>>> De : ccamp-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Leeyoung Envoyé : jeudi 15 septembre 2011 21:59 À : ccamp@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp@ietf.org> Objet : Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> After 05 version publication, Acee provided a number of valuable comments and suggestions. This revision (06) reflects those changes. Please note the following updates:
>>>>>
>>>>> - Change the title of the draft to "GMPLS OSPF Enhancement..." from "OSPF Enhancement..." to make sure the changes apply to the GMPLS OSPF rather than the base OSPF.
>>>>>
>>>>> - Add specific OSPF procedures on how sub-TLVs are packaged per [RFC3630] and editorial change including avoiding "multiple instances of TE LSA" to "multiple TE LSAs".
>>>>>
>>>>> Your comments are always appreciated. Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best Regards.
>>>>> Young
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf.org<mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 2:48 PM
>>>>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org<mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org>
>>>>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
>>>>> Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>
>>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.
>>>>>
>>>>>   Title           : GMPLS OSPF Enhancement for Signal and Network Element Compatibility for Wavelength Switched Optical Networks
>>>>>   Author(s)       : Young Lee
>>>>>                              Greg M. Bernstein
>>>>>   Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>   Pages           : 14
>>>>>   Date            : 2011-09-15
>>>>>
>>>>>       This document provides GMPLS OSPF routing enhancements to support
>>>>>       signal compatibility constraints associated with WSON network
>>>>>       elements. These routing enhancements are required in common optical
>>>>>       or hybrid electro-optical networks where not all of the optical
>>>>>       signals in the network are compatible with all network elements
>>>>>       participating in the network.
>>>>>
>>>>>       This compatibility constraint model is applicable to common optical
>>>>>       or hybrid electro optical systems such as OEO switches, regenerators,
>>>>>       and wavelength converters since such systems can be limited to
>>>>>       processing only certain types of WSON signals.
>>>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> Andrea Zanardi
>> CREATE-NET
>> Engineering & Fast Prototyping (ENGINE) Area
>> Senior Engineer
>> Via alla Cascata 56/D - 38123 Povo Trento (Italy)
>> e-mail: andrea.zanardi@create-net.org<mailto:andrea.zanardi@create-net.org>
>> Tel: (+39) 0461 408400 - interno/extension 1407
>> Mobile: (+39) 340 0011837
>> Fax: (+39) 0461 421157
>> Skype: zanardi_andrea
>> www.create-net.org<http://www.create-net.org>
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>
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Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-sdh-otn-oam-ext-03.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane =
Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : GMPLS RSVP-TE Extensions for SONET/SDH and OTN OAM Confi=
guration
	Author(s)       : Andras Kern
                          Attila Takacs
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-sdh-otn-oam-ext-03.txt
	Pages           : 21
	Date            : 2011-10-26

   GMPLS has been extended to support connection establishment in both
   SONET/SDH [RFC4606] and OTN [RFC4328] networks.  However support for
   the configuration of the supervision functions is not specified.
   Both SONET/SDH and OTN implement supervision functions to qualify the
   transported signals.  This document defines extensions to RSVP-TE for
   SONET/SDH and OTN OAM configuration based on the OAM Configuration
   Framework defined in [GMPLS-OAM-FWK].



A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-sdh-otn-oam-ex=
t-03.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-sdh-otn-oam-ext=
-03.txt

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Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 02:35:27 +0000
From: Zhangfatai <zhangfatai@huawei.com>
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Thread-topic: [CCAMP] Comment regarding draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-02
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Cc: Jonathan Harrison <jon.harrison@metaswitch.com>, "ccamp@ietf.org" <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Comment regarding draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-02
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From: Leeyoung <leeyoung@huawei.com>
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To: "Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich)" <cyril.margaria@nsn.com>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] FW:  I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-12
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Hi Cyril,

Please see inline for my comment. Thanks.

I will update the draft shortly. It seems that I still have problem of your point #3.

The issue of 16 bits vs 32 bits, I will take 32 bit solution. Other than that, I think
We have resolved all the issues you raised in the beginning. 

Thanks,

Young

-----Original Message-----
From: Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:cyril.margaria@nsn.com] 
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 4:11 AM
To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [CCAMP] FW: I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-12

Hi, 

Please see inline

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Leeyoung [mailto:leeyoung@huawei.com]
> Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 12:22 AM
> To: Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich); ccamp@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] FW: I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-
> 12
> 
> Hi Cyril,
> 
> Regarding your point #3, the main motivation for bitmap representation
> of label (wavelength) was based on standard/well-defined/global
> contiguous ID. That is, once you know the lowest level of wavelength
> grid in the label/wavelength set, you can derive the rest easily based
> on the "globally" identifiable wavelength grid (per RFC6205 and
> G.694.1/2).
> 
> Here the RB ID is local and arbitrary and as such I have a little
> hesitation to expand the Action field for bit map representation. If
we
> define RB ID ={1,2,3,..N}, then it would be able to extract, for
> instance, the next RB ID after 1 is obviously 2. But we don't know if
> such is the case always. The operator can give any scheme for RB ID
and
> it is strictly a local matter so assuming "monotonous increase" (as
the
> example) may not work.
> 
> What do you think?
> 
As you stated, this may not be always the case, but it can happen,
typically
If the node chooses to bundle the resources in resource block, then its
likely
to have monotonous increase, so I think it is worth to generalize the
usage of bit set
to IDs where its possible to define ID(n) = base_ID . n = (base_ID .
(n-1)) .1 ... etc
The document need to define the "." operation for RFC6205 labels
(already done), RB Id and 
Possibly interface IDs (for general-encoding). In the context of
general-encoding, new
 label format can simply define this operation and the bitmap set id
list can be used.

YOUNG>> This may create interoperability problem as I said before. This is an internal policy issue as to how to name the resource block ID. Different operators have their preferences and it is beyond what we should do in the standard. 


> We still have point #2 (32 bits vs 16 bits) open --- I haven't seen
> enough implementers input on this point yet.
> 
> I concur with you on point #6 (in your response to Pierre), is there
> any issue left on point #6?
> 
>From my point of view #6 can be closed, but the point from Pierre is
different from #6 (how many sub-TLVS), 
it is more a point #7 on the content of the sub-TLV, which I support
because of the following points:
  - having 2 bit guarantees that the size is the minimum one
  - its more explicit and makes processing less complex (one less rule) 


YOUNG>> I can close Point #6 you raised now. I am not sure what this point is. 

BR
Cyril


> Best Regards,
> Young
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich)
[mailto:cyril.margaria@nsn.com]
> Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 4:08 AM
> To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] FW: I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-
> 12
> 
> Hi Young,
> 
> For point 1,4,5,7 its ok.
> I updated the title BTW
> 
> I clarified some points inline.
> 
> Best Regards
> Cyril
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ext Leeyoung [mailto:leeyoung@huawei.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2011 11:47 PM
> > To: Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich); ccamp@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: [CCAMP] FW: I-D Action:
draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-12.txt
> >
> > Hi Cyril,
> >
> > Thanks for your review and suggestions. It looks like there are two
> > issues pending: Point #2 and #3.
> > We can close the rest of the points you raised with the action
> > specified in-line. Please let me know otherwise.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Young
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich)
> [mailto:cyril.margaria@nsn.com]
> > Sent: Monday, September 26, 2011 10:59 AM
> > To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: [CCAMP] FW: I-D Action:
draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-12.txt
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> > I have the following comments on
draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-12
> > after it being updated and in light of the WG discussions:
> 
> 
> <snip>
> 
> > 2) section 3.1. Resource Block Set Field:
> > RB Identifier: as stated in section "3. Resources, Blocks, Sets, and
> > the Resource Pool", Resources and Resource Blocks are related to
> > interface cards.
> >
> > GMPLS implementations are using 32-bit unnumbered interface IDs to
> > identify GMPLS links and also the corresponding physical resources.
> > OEO devices and, in the context of this document, resource or
> resource
> > group can also be identified by 32-bit unnumbered interface IDs.
> >
> >  From an implementation point of view, having 16-bit resource block
> IDs
> > have several drawbacks because of the following points:
> >   a) Mapping exists between physical resource and unnumbered
> interface
> > IDs, this mapping is generally known by management system,
> >       introducing a different ID space is not optimal (new mapping
> > needed);
> >   b) Those OEOs might be used as links in a multi-node model, thus
> > being identified by a 32-bit unnumbered interface IDs, introducing
> > another space is also not optimal.
> >
> > Therefore, it would be better if the resource block IDs were 32-bit
> > interface IDs (to be unique within the node, not because they are
> > representing links in this document).
> >
> > YOUNG>> The only motivation why we used 16 bits for RB ID is to
> reduce
> > the space. And I think this is an internal link so it is not the
real
> > interface per se and thus there is no need to keep track of the
state
> > of RB ID like other legitimate interfaces. I don't think there is a
> > substantial implementation issue here whether we use 16 bits or 32
> > bits, but if there is a strong support to use 32 bit ID over 16 bit
> ID,
> > I am fine with this. Lou and Deborah, do you have any suggestion on
> > this issue? Or other implementers?
> 
> CYRIL>> The most bothering point of having 16 bit is for management
> system
>  that needs to learn a new mapping between control plane resources and
> management plane resource. Having 32 bit ids make this more
transparent
> to  management applications.
> 
> >
> >
> > 3) section 3.1. Resource Block Set Field Why not define a bit set
> > action, similar to the label set?
> >
> > YOUNG>> Are you referring the Label Set encoding as follows from
> draft-
> > ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-05.txt
> >
> >   0                   1                   2                   3
> >       0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0
1
> >
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
> +
> >      | Action|    Num Labels         |          Length
> |
> >
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
> +
> >      |                          Base Label
> |
> >
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
> +
> >      |     Additional fields as necessary per action
> |
> >
> >
> > The current Resource Block Set Field is encoded as follows:
> >
> >   0                   1                   2                   3
> >        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0
> 1
> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >       |    Action     |E|C| Reserved  |        Length
> |
> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >       |     RB Identifier 1           |        RB Identifier 2
> |
> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >       :                               :
> :
> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >       |     RB Identifier n-1         |        RB Identifier n
> |
> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >
> > YOUNG>> Can you be specific about your suggestion? Are you concerned
> > about label being 32 bit vs RB identifier being 16 bits? --- then
> this
> > is basically related to your point #2.
> 
> CYRIL>> No, this is independent to the length of the RB identifier
> 
> > If you have other concerns,
> > please spell them out (e.g., action field (4 bits vs 8 bits), etc..)
> > The Num Labels field is necessary when we are indicating bit maps
> > (Action = 4), which Is not needed for Resource Block Set; E bit is
> not
> > necessary when we adopt 32 bit RB ID, but C bit is needed to
indicate
> > the connectivity nature of Resource Pool Accessibility.
> >
> > YOUNG>> Would the following encoding is what you are envisioning? If
> > not, please suggest in detail.
> >
> >   0                   1                   2                   3
> >        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0
> 1
> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >       | Action|C|                     |        Length
> |
> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >       |                         RB Identifier 1
> |
> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >       :                               :
> :
> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >       |                         RB Identifier n
> |
> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> 
> 
> My suggestion is to add the following text and format :
> Action :
>   1 - Reserved
>   3 - Reserved
>   4 - Bitmap Set
> 
> When Action is 4 (bitmap set) the format of the Resource block set is
> the following (with 16 bit ids):
>        0                   1                   2                   3
>        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>       |    Action = 4 |E|C| Reserved  |        Length
|
>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>       |     base RB Identifier        |Bit Map(Lowest numerical RB
Id)|
>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>       :                               :
:
>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>       |    Bit Map(Highest numerical RB Id)
|
>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> 
>    Each bit in the bit map represents a
>    particular RB Id with a value of 1/0 indicating whether the RB id
is
>    in the set or not. Bit position zero represents the lowest RB Id
and
>    corresponds to the base RB identifier, while each succeeding bit
> position
>    represents the next RB identifier in numerical order.
> 
> For example
> 
>        0                   1                   2                   3
>        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>       |    Action = 4 |E|C| Reserved  |        Length
|
>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>       |     base RB Identifier =10
|1|0|1|1|0|0|0|0|1|0|1|1|0|1|0|1|
>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>
|0|0|0|0|1|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|
>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> 
> Correspond to the following set of RB ids:
> 10,12,13,18,20,21,23,25,30
> 
> With 32 bits ids :
>        0                   1                   2                   3
>        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>       |    Action = 4 |E|C| Reserved  |        Length
|
>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>       |     base RB Identifier
|
>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>       |    Bit Map Word #1 (Lowest numerical RB Id)
|
>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>       :                               :
:
>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>       |    Bit Map Word #N(Highest numerical RB Id)
|
>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> 
> The previous example will be :
>        0                   1                   2                   3
>        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>       |    Action = 4 |E|C| Reserved  |        Length
|
>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>       |     base RB Identifier =10
|
>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>
|1|0|1|1|0|0|0|0|1|0|1|1|0|1|0|1|0|0|0|0|1|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|
>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> 
> General constraints encoding introduce a bitmap set for a set of IDs
> for efficiency, this can apply to each encoding representing a set of
> ids where you can define a group/calculate ID = baseID + n.
> 
> >
> >
> > 6) section 5.1. Resource Block Information Sub-TLV
> >
> > Having an Input Modulation Type List sub-sub-TLV containing a list
of
> > modulation formats (with an input-output bit) and an Output
> Modulation
> > Type List sub-sub-TLV containing a list of modulation formats (with
> an
> > input-output bit) seems redundant because the bit I already
indicates
> > if it is an output or input modulation format.
> >
> > Having a single Modulation Type List sub-sub-TLV is providing the
> same
> > information with an efficient encoding, a single sub-sub-TLV type
> > should be used.
> >
> > Same reasoning apply to the FEC Type List Sub-Sub-TLV.
> >
> > YOUNG>> I guess what you are suggesting is as follows:
> >
> >     0                   1                   2                   3
> >        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0
> 1
> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >       |                     RB Set Field
> |
> >       :
> :
> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >       |I|E|                      Reserved
> |
> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >       |           Modulation Type List Sub-Sub-TLV  (opt)
> |
> >       :
> :
> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >       |           FEC Type List Sub-Sub-TLV    (opt)
> |
> >       :
> :
> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >       |         Input Client Signal Type Sub-Sub-TLV      (opt)
> |
> >       :
> :
> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >       |         Input Bit Rate Range List  Sub-Sub-TLV (opt)
> |
> >       :
> :
> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >       |         Processing Capabilities List Sub-Sub-TLV (opt)
> |
> >       :
> :
> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >
> >
> > YOUNG>> If that's what you suggested, that is fine with me. If that
> is
> > that case, I will revise with this figure in the revision. (Closure)
> 
> This is what I mean, the logic of "if no egress FEC/Modulation is
> present, this is implicitly the same as the ingress FEC/Modulation".
> 
> This proposal do not change the format of the FEC and Modulation.
> 
>  <snip>

From leeyoung@huawei.com  Thu Oct 27 06:47:07 2011
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Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 13:46:48 +0000
From: Leeyoung <leeyoung@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D	Action:	draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
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Hi Andrea and Acee,

What I am proposing is this:

In Section 2, we have the following statement:

   All sub-TLVs defined here may occur at most once in any given Optical
   Node TLV. These restrictions need not apply to future sub-TLVs.
   Unrecognized sub-TLVs are ignored.
=20
I will change the above statement to the following:

   All sub-TLVs defined here may occur at most once in any given Optical
   Node TLV. "At most once" means that if there is sub-TLV related informat=
ion,=20
   it will be always included. These restrictions need not apply to future=
=20
   sub-TLVs. Unrecognized sub-TLVs are ignored.=20

This statement assures that all the related sub-TLVs are always included in=
 any given
Optical Node TLV leaving no room not to include such sub-TLVs in the Optica=
l
Node TLV.=20

In Section 3.2, we have the following statement:

   In the highly unlikely event that a WSON sub-TLV by itself would
   result in an LSA exceeding the MTU, all five WSON specific sub-TLVs
   in this document provide mechanisms that allow them to be subdivided
   into smaller sub-TLVs that can be sent in separate OSPF TE LSAs.

I will change the above statement to the following:

   In the highly unlikely event that a WSON sub-TLV by itself would
   result in an LSA exceeding the MTU, all five WSON specific sub-TLVs
   in this document provide mechanisms that allow them to be subdivided
   into smaller sub-TLVs that can be sent in separate OSPF TE LSAs.

   What is suggested as below is the only option allowed when dividing up=20
   the current set of sub-TLVs into separate OSPF TE LSAs. This means
   each sub-TLV will be packaged as the sole element in an OSPF TE LSA
   with a unique LSA instance number. When such division is implemented, th=
en
   the source node must flush the existing LSA (i.e., the original OSPF
   TE LSA with all sub-TLV's packaged together as described in Section 2).=
=20
   This will avoid duplicating the same information being advertised across=
=20
   multiple LSAs.=20

Please let me know if these texts will remove any ambiguity of the current=
=20
Texts.=20

Best Regards,
Young
-----Original Message-----
From: Acee Lindem [mailto:acee.lindem@ericsson.com]=20
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 9:18 AM
To: Andrea Zanardi
Cc: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility=
-ospf-06.txt

Hi Andrea,=20
On Oct 4, 2011, at 3:03 PM, Andrea Zanardi wrote:

> Hi Acee,
>=20
> On 10/04/2011 07:03 PM, Acee Lindem wrote:
>> Hi Andrea,
>>=20
>> On Oct 4, 2011, at 10:10 AM, Andrea Zanardi wrote:
> ....
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> My point is in avoiding ambiguities: if the support for multiple LSA in=
stances for the
>>> same entity top TLV is requested, it should be explicitly stated as man=
datory
>>> (possibly providing explicit rules for the subdivision, as in Chap. 3 o=
f the draft).
>>=20
>> There are not multiple instances of the same LSA. Rather they are unique=
 LSAs,
>> as identified by the (Type, Link State ID, Advertising Router) tuple.
>> In this case, they have different Link State IDs.
>> One thing that is confusing is that RFC 3630 refers to the portion of th=
e Link State ID
>> providing uniqueness as "Instance".
>> Also note that draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt do=
esn't include any
>> additions to the Link TLV so I'm not sure why you are citing it in discu=
ssions of the new top-level TLVs.
>=20
> I was replying to Young email providing the Link TLV and
> RFC 3630 as an example of the usage of multiple LSAs and of
> sending LSA updates with missing sub-TLVs;
> I was discussing about the correctness of the example,
> that's why I was citing the Link TLV.

Ok.=20

>=20
> The usage of the word "instance" is probably not correct.
>=20
> What I meant by "multiple LSA instances" was different LSAs (with distinc=
t LS ID
> and both present in the TE DB at the same time) describing the same entit=
y
> (e.g. the same link by including the same Link Type / Link ID sub-TLVs)
> each one providing a subset of the information (e.g. a subset of the othe=
r sub-TLVs).
>=20
> Considering the draft TLVs, this should be the case of Chap. 3.2.1 "Sub-D=
ivision by Options", e.g.:
> two LSAs with a Resource Block Information sub-TLV with the same RB Set F=
ield
> and different sub-sets of optional sub-sub-TLVs.
>=20
> To avoid ambiguities, it should be clear that the options described in Ch=
ap. 3
> are the only options and that, even if they "can" be used when generating
> the LSAs, they "must" all be supported when receiving and 'using' the LSA=
s.

Agreed. Splitting information across multiple LSAs will result in some adde=
d complexity.=20
For TLVs or sub-TLVs that are required for a single WSON computation, the W=
SON path computation must concatenate them when doing that computation.=20
Today, multiple OSPFv3 Router-LSAs may be originated and implementation MUS=
T use the concatenation when doing the OSPFv3 SPF computation.=20

Thanks,
Acee=20

>=20
>=20
> Regards,
> Andrea
>=20
>> Thanks,
>> Acee
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Regards,
>>> Andrea
>>>=20
>>> On 10/03/2011 09:34 PM, Leeyoung wrote:
>>>> Hi Andrea,
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks for your interest and input to this issue.
>>>>=20
>>>> My overall point was that the current GMPLS TE LSA (per RFC 3630) does=
 not specify detail implementations as to how to divide up the TE Link TLVs=
 into static vs. dynamic nor how to use multiple TE LSAs. The current WSON =
document follows a similar document philosophy with the GMPLS predecessor.
>>>>=20
>>>> Regarding your point on how the TE DB works in regard to missing sub-T=
LVs are deleted seems to me a particular implementation, which is most simp=
listic in nature.
>>>>=20
>>>> Best Regards,
>>>> Young
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=
 Of Andrea Zanardi
>>>> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 9:14 AM
>>>> To: Leeyoung
>>>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatib=
ility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>=20
>>>> Hi Young,
>>>>=20
>>>> I was following the discussion and I have a doubt about
>>>> your example related to the TE Link TLV.
>>>>=20
>>>> It's true that the attributes sub-TLV are not mandatory per RFC 3630,
>>>> but I don't think that means that they can be not included in an LSA u=
pdate
>>>> if unchanged (implying that the previous value persists).
>>>>=20
>>>> As for my understanding of how OSPF-TE works, the managed TE DB entity=
 is the LSA.
>>>> When an LSA update is processed, the previous version is deleted from =
the TE DB
>>>> and it is replaced by the new one: link attributes related to missing =
sub-TLV are
>>>> deleted, so they must be present even if unchanged.
>>>>=20
>>>> In theory, the set of link attributes could be statically divided
>>>> in two different LSAs instances (updated independently),
>>>> but I don't think current implementations handle this scenario
>>>> (also because, in my opinion, it's not suggested by RFC 3630 and
>>>>   it gives no rule on how to divide them).
>>>>=20
>>>> But I ask to the mailing list if this is the correct interpretation.
>>>>=20
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Andrea
>>>>=20
>>>> On 09/30/2011 11:16 PM, Leeyoung wrote:
>>>>> Hi Pierre,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I got your point. Let me ask you this question. In the current GMPLS =
OSPF TE Link TLV are defined under Opaque TE LSA with the following attribu=
tes:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> - TE Metric
>>>>> - max B/W
>>>>> - max reservable b/w
>>>>> - unreserved b/w
>>>>> - Admin Group
>>>>> - Link Protection Type
>>>>> - SRLG
>>>>> - ISCD
>>>>> - etc.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> And these are a mixture of static and dynamic information and yet the=
y are assembled together as one TE Link TLV. For instance the ISCD is quite=
 similar to Resource Block Info in that it does not change often unless the=
re are new elements added in the node or configuration changes and yet it i=
s packaged together with other dynamic information.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Why?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> There are many ways to keep static/unchanged information from being f=
looded. Only the Link Type and Link ID which are mandatory in the TE Link T=
LV per RFC3630. All other sub-TLV are optional and may occur at most once (=
when there are enough changes from the previous period that deserve an upda=
te) and need not be included in the TE Link TLV when there is no need for u=
pdating.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I really don't see the need for a separate top-level TLV and/or a sep=
arate LSA for the Resource Block information.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Young
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) [mailto:pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.co=
m]
>>>>> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 9:39 AM
>>>>> To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
>>>>> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compati=
bility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Hi Young,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I understand the content of your answer, but I'm not satisfied with i=
t.
>>>>> My concern deals with providing a unique reading/interpretation of th=
e OSPF-TE extensions.
>>>>> We would like to make sure that any implementation complying to the d=
rafts would provide the same LSAs when applied to the same network.
>>>>> With this perspective in mind, we wish to get drafts with sufficient =
documentation to make sure the LSA design process to be depicted, by design=
 rules.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Hence the content of your answer leaving me the "opportunity to do as=
 I wish", is not pleasing me, I would rather have strict rules, and discuss=
ions with the WG on the design of those.
>>>>> That is why a first design rule, we could agree on is: to gather the =
Resource Block Information TLVs inside a dedicated LSA, possibly with a ded=
icated top-level TLV (which in my mind allows to enforce this design rule).
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> - Pierre
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>>> De : Leeyoung [mailto:leeyoung@huawei.com]
>>>>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 28 septembre 2011 00:06
>>>>> =C0 : PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE); ccamp@ietf.org
>>>>> Objet : RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatib=
ility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Hi Pierre,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Please see-inline for my reply to your first point.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Young
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) [mailto:pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.co=
m]
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 3:28 AM
>>>>> To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
>>>>> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compati=
bility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Hi Young, and CCAMPers,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I was off the mailing lists for the last two weeks and being back I n=
otice a lot of exchanges, which I'm very glad of.
>>>>> I've also noticed many drafts have been updated.
>>>>> Concerning this specific draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-o=
spf-06, I wanted to comment section 3.
>>>>> Back in Quebec, I expressed my point of view (shared with Cyril, Juli=
en and Giovanni) that current drafts were lacking guidance regarding the wa=
y to design LSAs that were to depict an WSON node with OEOs.
>>>>> This section 3 provides additional material to help designing the LSA=
.
>>>>> I would like to know whether authors are willing to pursue further in=
 this direction, which is to my mind a real corner stone, that would help e=
veryone agree on a solution.
>>>>> A first point could concern the Resource Block Information (reminder:=
<ResourceBlockInfo>    ::=3D ([<ResourceSet>]<InputConstraints>    <Process=
ingCapabilities>    <OutputConstraints>):
>>>>>       We all agree that these information are static, that we should =
not replicate this TLV whatever the number not the layout of OEO boards of =
a given type.
>>>>> Then, we could dedicate a specific independant flooding entity. This =
would be defined once for all, and that would not leave room to different i=
nterpretations.
>>>>> What about this first point?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> YOUNG>>    If I understand you correctly, what you are saying is sinc=
e the Resource Block Info sub-TLV is very static in nature, advertisement o=
f this sub-TLV should be treated differently from the rest of static-TLVs (=
which may change over time). Is this what you are saying?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> If my interpretation of your comment is correct,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> - The current mechanism allows what you want: Please see the first pa=
ragraph in Section 3.2
>>>>>     "In the highly unlikely event that a WSON sub-TLV by itself would
>>>>>     result in an LSA exceeding the MTU, all five WSON specific sub-TL=
Vs
>>>>>     in this document provide mechanisms that allow them to be subdivi=
ded
>>>>>     into smaller sub-TLVs that can be sent in separate OSPF TE LSAs."
>>>>>=20
>>>>> According to this clause, you can separate the Resource Block Info Su=
b-TLV as the sole entry defined in the Optical Node property TLV in a separ=
ate TE LSA from the rest if you will. Nothing prevents this particular way =
of packaging. (Isn't this what you meant "a specific independent flooding e=
ntity"?)
>>>>>=20
>>>>> - Please let me know if this explanation satisfies you. Thanks --- Yo=
ung
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Pierre
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>>> De : ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] De la par=
t de Leeyoung Envoy=E9 : jeudi 15 septembre 2011 21:59 =C0 : ccamp@ietf.org=
 Objet : Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility=
-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> After 05 version publication, Acee provided a number of valuable comm=
ents and suggestions. This revision (06) reflects those changes. Please not=
e the following updates:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> - Change the title of the draft to "GMPLS OSPF Enhancement..." from "=
OSPF Enhancement..." to make sure the changes apply to the GMPLS OSPF rathe=
r than the base OSPF.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> - Add specific OSPF procedures on how sub-TLVs are packaged per [RFC3=
630] and editorial change including avoiding "multiple instances of TE LSA"=
 to "multiple TE LSAs".
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Your comments are always appreciated. Thanks.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Best Regards.
>>>>> Young
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behal=
f Of internet-drafts@ietf.org
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 2:48 PM
>>>>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
>>>>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
>>>>> Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibili=
ty-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>=20
>>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts di=
rectories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement =
Plane Working Group of the IETF.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>     Title           : GMPLS OSPF Enhancement for Signal and Network E=
lement Compatibility for Wavelength Switched Optical Networks
>>>>>     Author(s)       : Young Lee
>>>>>                            Greg M. Bernstein
>>>>>     Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf=
-06.txt
>>>>>     Pages           : 14
>>>>>     Date            : 2011-09-15
>>>>>=20
>>>>>     This document provides GMPLS OSPF routing enhancements to support
>>>>>     signal compatibility constraints associated with WSON network
>>>>>     elements. These routing enhancements are required in common optic=
al
>>>>>     or hybrid electro-optical networks where not all of the optical
>>>>>     signals in the network are compatible with all network elements
>>>>>     participating in the network.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>     This compatibility constraint model is applicable to common optic=
al
>>>>>     or hybrid electro optical systems such as OEO switches, regenerat=
ors,
>>>>>     and wavelength converters since such systems can be limited to
>>>>>     processing only certain types of WSON signals.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-comp=
atibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>>>=20
>>>>> This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
>>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compa=
tibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> --
>>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>> Andrea Zanardi
>>> CREATE-NET
>>> Engineering&  Fast Prototyping (ENGINE) Area
>>> Senior Engineer
>>> Via alla Cascata 56/D - 38123 Povo Trento (Italy)
>>> e-mail: andrea.zanardi@create-net.org
>>> Tel: (+39) 0461 408400 - interno/extension 1407
>>> Mobile: (+39) 340 0011837
>>> Fax: (+39) 0461 421157
>>> Skype: zanardi_andrea
>>> www.create-net.org
>>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>>=20
>>> The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity t=
o
>>> which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged
>>> material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or
>>> taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or
>>> entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited according to t=
he
>>> Italian Law 196/2003 of the Legislature. If you received this in error,
>>> please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer.
>>>=20
>>> Le informazioni contenute in questo messaggio di posta elettronica e ne=
i
>>> file allegati sono da considerarsi strettamente riservate. Il loro util=
izzo
>>> e' consentito esclusivamente al destinatario del messaggio, per le fina=
lita'
>>> indicate nel messaggio stesso. Qualora riceveste questo messaggio senza
>>> esserne il destinatario, Vi preghiamo cortesemente di darcene notizia v=
ia
>>> e-mail e di procedere alla cancellazione del messaggio stesso dal Vostr=
o
>>> sistema. Trattenere il messaggio stesso, divulgarlo anche in parte,
>>> distribuirlo ad altri soggetti, copiarlo, od utilizzarlo per finalita'
>>> diverse, costituisce comportamento contrario ai principi dettati dal D.=
 Lgs.
>>> 196/2003.
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20
> --
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Andrea Zanardi
> CREATE-NET
> Engineering & Fast Prototyping (ENGINE) Area
> Senior Engineer
> Via alla Cascata 56/D - 38123 Povo Trento (Italy)
> e-mail: andrea.zanardi@create-net.org
> Tel: (+39) 0461 408400 - interno/extension 1407
> Mobile: (+39) 340 0011837
> Fax: (+39) 0461 421157
> Skype: zanardi_andrea
> www.create-net.org
> --------------------------------------------------------
>=20
> The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to
> which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged
> material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or
> taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or
> entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited according to the
> Italian Law 196/2003 of the Legislature. If you received this in error,
> please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer.
>=20
> Le informazioni contenute in questo messaggio di posta elettronica e nei
> file allegati sono da considerarsi strettamente riservate. Il loro utiliz=
zo
> e' consentito esclusivamente al destinatario del messaggio, per le finali=
ta'
> indicate nel messaggio stesso. Qualora riceveste questo messaggio senza
> esserne il destinatario, Vi preghiamo cortesemente di darcene notizia via
> e-mail e di procedere alla cancellazione del messaggio stesso dal Vostro
> sistema. Trattenere il messaggio stesso, divulgarlo anche in parte,
> distribuirlo ad altri soggetti, copiarlo, od utilizzarlo per finalita'
> diverse, costituisce comportamento contrario ai principi dettati dal D. L=
gs.
> 196/2003.
>=20


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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D	Action:	draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
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Young, (And other WG document authors/editors),

	Just a general statement on Standards Track drafts (as opposed to
Informational drafts).  Narrative language is important, but a PS
ultimately must have normative, i.e., RFC2119, language or it will not
be approved as a Standards Track RFC. (Generally I include both type for
better clarity/understanding.)  So please ensure that there is such
language matching the narrative/non-normative text you have below (and
in the rest of the draft).

Much Thanks,
Lou (Chair hat squarely on)

On 10/27/2011 9:46 AM, Leeyoung wrote:
> Hi Andrea and Acee,
> 
> What I am proposing is this:
> 
> In Section 2, we have the following statement:
> 
>    All sub-TLVs defined here may occur at most once in any given Optical
>    Node TLV. These restrictions need not apply to future sub-TLVs.
>    Unrecognized sub-TLVs are ignored.
>  
> I will change the above statement to the following:
> 
>    All sub-TLVs defined here may occur at most once in any given Optical
>    Node TLV. "At most once" means that if there is sub-TLV related information, 
>    it will be always included. These restrictions need not apply to future 
>    sub-TLVs. Unrecognized sub-TLVs are ignored. 
> 
> This statement assures that all the related sub-TLVs are always included in any given
> Optical Node TLV leaving no room not to include such sub-TLVs in the Optical
> Node TLV. 
> 
> In Section 3.2, we have the following statement:
> 
>    In the highly unlikely event that a WSON sub-TLV by itself would
>    result in an LSA exceeding the MTU, all five WSON specific sub-TLVs
>    in this document provide mechanisms that allow them to be subdivided
>    into smaller sub-TLVs that can be sent in separate OSPF TE LSAs.
> 
> I will change the above statement to the following:
> 
>    In the highly unlikely event that a WSON sub-TLV by itself would
>    result in an LSA exceeding the MTU, all five WSON specific sub-TLVs
>    in this document provide mechanisms that allow them to be subdivided
>    into smaller sub-TLVs that can be sent in separate OSPF TE LSAs.
> 
>    What is suggested as below is the only option allowed when dividing up 
>    the current set of sub-TLVs into separate OSPF TE LSAs. This means
>    each sub-TLV will be packaged as the sole element in an OSPF TE LSA
>    with a unique LSA instance number. When such division is implemented, then
>    the source node must flush the existing LSA (i.e., the original OSPF
>    TE LSA with all sub-TLV's packaged together as described in Section 2). 
>    This will avoid duplicating the same information being advertised across 
>    multiple LSAs. 
> 
> Please let me know if these texts will remove any ambiguity of the current 
> Texts. 
> 
> Best Regards,
> Young
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Acee Lindem [mailto:acee.lindem@ericsson.com] 
> Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 9:18 AM
> To: Andrea Zanardi
> Cc: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
> 
> Hi Andrea, 
> On Oct 4, 2011, at 3:03 PM, Andrea Zanardi wrote:
> 
>> Hi Acee,
>>
>> On 10/04/2011 07:03 PM, Acee Lindem wrote:
>>> Hi Andrea,
>>>
>>> On Oct 4, 2011, at 10:10 AM, Andrea Zanardi wrote:
>> ....
>>>
>>>>
>>>> My point is in avoiding ambiguities: if the support for multiple LSA instances for the
>>>> same entity top TLV is requested, it should be explicitly stated as mandatory
>>>> (possibly providing explicit rules for the subdivision, as in Chap. 3 of the draft).
>>>
>>> There are not multiple instances of the same LSA. Rather they are unique LSAs,
>>> as identified by the (Type, Link State ID, Advertising Router) tuple.
>>> In this case, they have different Link State IDs.
>>> One thing that is confusing is that RFC 3630 refers to the portion of the Link State ID
>>> providing uniqueness as "Instance".
>>> Also note that draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt doesn't include any
>>> additions to the Link TLV so I'm not sure why you are citing it in discussions of the new top-level TLVs.
>>
>> I was replying to Young email providing the Link TLV and
>> RFC 3630 as an example of the usage of multiple LSAs and of
>> sending LSA updates with missing sub-TLVs;
>> I was discussing about the correctness of the example,
>> that's why I was citing the Link TLV.
> 
> Ok. 
> 
>>
>> The usage of the word "instance" is probably not correct.
>>
>> What I meant by "multiple LSA instances" was different LSAs (with distinct LS ID
>> and both present in the TE DB at the same time) describing the same entity
>> (e.g. the same link by including the same Link Type / Link ID sub-TLVs)
>> each one providing a subset of the information (e.g. a subset of the other sub-TLVs).
>>
>> Considering the draft TLVs, this should be the case of Chap. 3.2.1 "Sub-Division by Options", e.g.:
>> two LSAs with a Resource Block Information sub-TLV with the same RB Set Field
>> and different sub-sets of optional sub-sub-TLVs.
>>
>> To avoid ambiguities, it should be clear that the options described in Chap. 3
>> are the only options and that, even if they "can" be used when generating
>> the LSAs, they "must" all be supported when receiving and 'using' the LSAs.
> 
> Agreed. Splitting information across multiple LSAs will result in some added complexity. 
> For TLVs or sub-TLVs that are required for a single WSON computation, the WSON path computation must concatenate them when doing that computation. 
> Today, multiple OSPFv3 Router-LSAs may be originated and implementation MUST use the concatenation when doing the OSPFv3 SPF computation. 
> 
> Thanks,
> Acee 
> 
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Andrea
>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Acee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Andrea
>>>>
>>>> On 10/03/2011 09:34 PM, Leeyoung wrote:
>>>>> Hi Andrea,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for your interest and input to this issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> My overall point was that the current GMPLS TE LSA (per RFC 3630) does not specify detail implementations as to how to divide up the TE Link TLVs into static vs. dynamic nor how to use multiple TE LSAs. The current WSON document follows a similar document philosophy with the GMPLS predecessor.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regarding your point on how the TE DB works in regard to missing sub-TLVs are deleted seems to me a particular implementation, which is most simplistic in nature.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>> Young
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Andrea Zanardi
>>>>> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 9:14 AM
>>>>> To: Leeyoung
>>>>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Young,
>>>>>
>>>>> I was following the discussion and I have a doubt about
>>>>> your example related to the TE Link TLV.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's true that the attributes sub-TLV are not mandatory per RFC 3630,
>>>>> but I don't think that means that they can be not included in an LSA update
>>>>> if unchanged (implying that the previous value persists).
>>>>>
>>>>> As for my understanding of how OSPF-TE works, the managed TE DB entity is the LSA.
>>>>> When an LSA update is processed, the previous version is deleted from the TE DB
>>>>> and it is replaced by the new one: link attributes related to missing sub-TLV are
>>>>> deleted, so they must be present even if unchanged.
>>>>>
>>>>> In theory, the set of link attributes could be statically divided
>>>>> in two different LSAs instances (updated independently),
>>>>> but I don't think current implementations handle this scenario
>>>>> (also because, in my opinion, it's not suggested by RFC 3630 and
>>>>>   it gives no rule on how to divide them).
>>>>>
>>>>> But I ask to the mailing list if this is the correct interpretation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Andrea
>>>>>
>>>>> On 09/30/2011 11:16 PM, Leeyoung wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Pierre,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I got your point. Let me ask you this question. In the current GMPLS OSPF TE Link TLV are defined under Opaque TE LSA with the following attributes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - TE Metric
>>>>>> - max B/W
>>>>>> - max reservable b/w
>>>>>> - unreserved b/w
>>>>>> - Admin Group
>>>>>> - Link Protection Type
>>>>>> - SRLG
>>>>>> - ISCD
>>>>>> - etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And these are a mixture of static and dynamic information and yet they are assembled together as one TE Link TLV. For instance the ISCD is quite similar to Resource Block Info in that it does not change often unless there are new elements added in the node or configuration changes and yet it is packaged together with other dynamic information.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are many ways to keep static/unchanged information from being flooded. Only the Link Type and Link ID which are mandatory in the TE Link TLV per RFC3630. All other sub-TLV are optional and may occur at most once (when there are enough changes from the previous period that deserve an update) and need not be included in the TE Link TLV when there is no need for updating.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I really don't see the need for a separate top-level TLV and/or a separate LSA for the Resource Block information.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Young
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) [mailto:pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.com]
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 9:39 AM
>>>>>> To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
>>>>>> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Young,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I understand the content of your answer, but I'm not satisfied with it.
>>>>>> My concern deals with providing a unique reading/interpretation of the OSPF-TE extensions.
>>>>>> We would like to make sure that any implementation complying to the drafts would provide the same LSAs when applied to the same network.
>>>>>> With this perspective in mind, we wish to get drafts with sufficient documentation to make sure the LSA design process to be depicted, by design rules.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hence the content of your answer leaving me the "opportunity to do as I wish", is not pleasing me, I would rather have strict rules, and discussions with the WG on the design of those.
>>>>>> That is why a first design rule, we could agree on is: to gather the Resource Block Information TLVs inside a dedicated LSA, possibly with a dedicated top-level TLV (which in my mind allows to enforce this design rule).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Pierre
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>>>> De : Leeyoung [mailto:leeyoung@huawei.com]
>>>>>> Envoy : mercredi 28 septembre 2011 00:06
>>>>>>  : PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE); ccamp@ietf.org
>>>>>> Objet : RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Pierre,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please see-inline for my reply to your first point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Young
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) [mailto:pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.com]
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 3:28 AM
>>>>>> To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
>>>>>> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Young, and CCAMPers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was off the mailing lists for the last two weeks and being back I notice a lot of exchanges, which I'm very glad of.
>>>>>> I've also noticed many drafts have been updated.
>>>>>> Concerning this specific draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06, I wanted to comment section 3.
>>>>>> Back in Quebec, I expressed my point of view (shared with Cyril, Julien and Giovanni) that current drafts were lacking guidance regarding the way to design LSAs that were to depict an WSON node with OEOs.
>>>>>> This section 3 provides additional material to help designing the LSA.
>>>>>> I would like to know whether authors are willing to pursue further in this direction, which is to my mind a real corner stone, that would help everyone agree on a solution.
>>>>>> A first point could concern the Resource Block Information (reminder:<ResourceBlockInfo>    ::= ([<ResourceSet>]<InputConstraints>    <ProcessingCapabilities>    <OutputConstraints>):
>>>>>>       We all agree that these information are static, that we should not replicate this TLV whatever the number not the layout of OEO boards of a given type.
>>>>>> Then, we could dedicate a specific independant flooding entity. This would be defined once for all, and that would not leave room to different interpretations.
>>>>>> What about this first point?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> YOUNG>>    If I understand you correctly, what you are saying is since the Resource Block Info sub-TLV is very static in nature, advertisement of this sub-TLV should be treated differently from the rest of static-TLVs (which may change over time). Is this what you are saying?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If my interpretation of your comment is correct,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - The current mechanism allows what you want: Please see the first paragraph in Section 3.2
>>>>>>     "In the highly unlikely event that a WSON sub-TLV by itself would
>>>>>>     result in an LSA exceeding the MTU, all five WSON specific sub-TLVs
>>>>>>     in this document provide mechanisms that allow them to be subdivided
>>>>>>     into smaller sub-TLVs that can be sent in separate OSPF TE LSAs."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> According to this clause, you can separate the Resource Block Info Sub-TLV as the sole entry defined in the Optical Node property TLV in a separate TE LSA from the rest if you will. Nothing prevents this particular way of packaging. (Isn't this what you meant "a specific independent flooding entity"?)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Please let me know if this explanation satisfies you. Thanks --- Young
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pierre
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>>>> De : ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Leeyoung Envoy : jeudi 15 septembre 2011 21:59  : ccamp@ietf.org Objet : Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> After 05 version publication, Acee provided a number of valuable comments and suggestions. This revision (06) reflects those changes. Please note the following updates:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Change the title of the draft to "GMPLS OSPF Enhancement..." from "OSPF Enhancement..." to make sure the changes apply to the GMPLS OSPF rather than the base OSPF.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Add specific OSPF procedures on how sub-TLVs are packaged per [RFC3630] and editorial change including avoiding "multiple instances of TE LSA" to "multiple TE LSAs".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your comments are always appreciated. Thanks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best Regards.
>>>>>> Young
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf.org
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 2:48 PM
>>>>>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
>>>>>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
>>>>>> Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Title           : GMPLS OSPF Enhancement for Signal and Network Element Compatibility for Wavelength Switched Optical Networks
>>>>>>     Author(s)       : Young Lee
>>>>>>                            Greg M. Bernstein
>>>>>>     Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>>     Pages           : 14
>>>>>>     Date            : 2011-09-15
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     This document provides GMPLS OSPF routing enhancements to support
>>>>>>     signal compatibility constraints associated with WSON network
>>>>>>     elements. These routing enhancements are required in common optical
>>>>>>     or hybrid electro-optical networks where not all of the optical
>>>>>>     signals in the network are compatible with all network elements
>>>>>>     participating in the network.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     This compatibility constraint model is applicable to common optical
>>>>>>     or hybrid electro optical systems such as OEO switches, regenerators,
>>>>>>     and wavelength converters since such systems can be limited to
>>>>>>     processing only certain types of WSON signals.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
>>>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Andrea Zanardi
>>>> CREATE-NET
>>>> Engineering&  Fast Prototyping (ENGINE) Area
>>>> Senior Engineer
>>>> Via alla Cascata 56/D - 38123 Povo Trento (Italy)
>>>> e-mail: andrea.zanardi@create-net.org
>>>> Tel: (+39) 0461 408400 - interno/extension 1407
>>>> Mobile: (+39) 340 0011837
>>>> Fax: (+39) 0461 421157
>>>> Skype: zanardi_andrea
>>>> www.create-net.org
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to
>>>> which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged
>>>> material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or
>>>> taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or
>>>> entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited according to the
>>>> Italian Law 196/2003 of the Legislature. If you received this in error,
>>>> please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer.
>>>>
>>>> Le informazioni contenute in questo messaggio di posta elettronica e nei
>>>> file allegati sono da considerarsi strettamente riservate. Il loro utilizzo
>>>> e' consentito esclusivamente al destinatario del messaggio, per le finalita'
>>>> indicate nel messaggio stesso. Qualora riceveste questo messaggio senza
>>>> esserne il destinatario, Vi preghiamo cortesemente di darcene notizia via
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>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> CCAMP mailing list
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>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> Andrea Zanardi
>> CREATE-NET
>> Engineering & Fast Prototyping (ENGINE) Area
>> Senior Engineer
>> Via alla Cascata 56/D - 38123 Povo Trento (Italy)
>> e-mail: andrea.zanardi@create-net.org
>> Tel: (+39) 0461 408400 - interno/extension 1407
>> Mobile: (+39) 340 0011837
>> Fax: (+39) 0461 421157
>> Skype: zanardi_andrea
>> www.create-net.org
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to
>> which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged
>> material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or
>> taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or
>> entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited according to the
>> Italian Law 196/2003 of the Legislature. If you received this in error,
>> please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer.
>>
>> Le informazioni contenute in questo messaggio di posta elettronica e nei
>> file allegati sono da considerarsi strettamente riservate. Il loro utilizzo
>> e' consentito esclusivamente al destinatario del messaggio, per le finalita'
>> indicate nel messaggio stesso. Qualora riceveste questo messaggio senza
>> esserne il destinatario, Vi preghiamo cortesemente di darcene notizia via
>> e-mail e di procedere alla cancellazione del messaggio stesso dal Vostro
>> sistema. Trattenere il messaggio stesso, divulgarlo anche in parte,
>> distribuirlo ad altri soggetti, copiarlo, od utilizzarlo per finalita'
>> diverse, costituisce comportamento contrario ai principi dettati dal D. Lgs.
>> 196/2003.
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> 
> 
> 
> 

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Folks,

http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dhillon-ccamp-super-channel-ospfte-ex=
t

Regards.....Abinder


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dhillon-ccamp-super-channel-ospfte-ext</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards&#8230;..Abinder<o:p></o:p></p>
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From ramon.casellas@cttc.es  Thu Oct 27 12:11:43 2011
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Please provide your comments - draft-dhillon-ccamp-super-channel-ospfte-ext
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El 27/10/2011 20:42, Abinder Dhillon escribi:
>
> Folks,
>
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dhillon-ccamp-super-channel-ospfte-ext
>
> Regards.....Abinder
>

Hi Abinder,

Interesting draft, thank you.

One question, if I may: what bandwidth values (Unreserved, Max LSP Bw. 
per priority etc.) do you disseminate for the ISCD and other sub-TLVs?
Regardless of the actual encoding, we all seem to agree on disseminating 
available frequency ranges (or nominal freqs in the flexi-grid).
Yet I don't see a trivial mapping between available optical spectrum 
frequency ranges (e.g. within the C band) and "bytes per second".

The only mapping I can think of, if we assume a superchannel as a 
contiguous frequency slot (without gaps), is to identify the greatest 
available frequency range (in GHz) and to assume a worst case modulation 
with 1 Hz = 1 bit/s
Even in this case, the unreserved bandwidth per priority does not seem 
very useful, since it does not account for fragmentation, and this also 
means that the "max lsp bw" is updated at each change, imho.

Alternatively, if nominal flexi-grid frequencies are disseminated, 
aren't all bandwidth-related (sub)TLVs somehow deprecated?

Your comments are much welcome :-)

Thanks in advance and best regards
Ramon

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    El 27/10/2011 20:42, Abinder Dhillon escribi&oacute;:
    <blockquote
cite="mid:8FCABE5E435B954A8B67947E4F08B12F0AB1B0CE@SV-EXDB-PROD1.infinera.com"
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dhillon-ccamp-super-channel-ospfte-ext">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dhillon-ccamp-super-channel-ospfte-ext</a><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Regards&#8230;..Abinder<o:p></o:p></p>
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    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Hi Abinder,<br>
    <br>
    Interesting draft, thank you. <br>
    <br>
    One question, if I may: what bandwidth values (Unreserved, Max LSP
    Bw. per priority etc.) do you disseminate for the ISCD and other
    sub-TLVs?<br>
    Regardless of the actual encoding, we all seem to agree on
    disseminating available frequency ranges (or nominal freqs in the
    flexi-grid).<br>
    Yet I don't see a trivial mapping between available optical spectrum
    frequency ranges (e.g. within the C band) and "bytes per second". <br>
    <br>
    The only mapping I can think of, if we assume a superchannel as a
    contiguous frequency slot (without gaps), is to identify the
    greatest available frequency range (in GHz) and to assume a worst
    case modulation with 1 Hz = 1 bit/s<br>
    Even in this case, the unreserved bandwidth per priority does not
    seem very useful, since it does not account for fragmentation, and
    this also means that the "max lsp bw" is updated at each change,
    imho.<br>
    <br>
    Alternatively, if nominal flexi-grid frequencies are disseminated,
    aren't all bandwidth-related (sub)TLVs somehow deprecated? <br>
    <br>
    Your comments are much welcome :-)<br>
    <br>
    Thanks in advance and best regards<br>
    Ramon<br>
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--------------070608020606040500050700--

From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Fri Oct 28 03:02:03 2011
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Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model-02.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane =
Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : Information model for G.709 Optical Transport Networks (=
OTN)
	Author(s)       : Sergio Belotti
                          Pietro Vittorio Grandi
                          Daniele Ceccarelli
                          Diego Caviglia
                          Fatai Zhang
                          Dan Li
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model-02.txt
	Pages           : 22
	Date            : 2011-10-28

   The recent revision of ITU-T recommendation G.709 [G.709-v3] has
   introduced new fixed and flexible ODU containers in Optical Transport
   Networks (OTNs), enabling optimized support for an increasingly
   abundant service mix.

   This document provides a model of information needed by the routing
   and signaling process in OTNs to support Generalized Multiprotocol
   Label Switching (GMPLS) control of all currently defined ODU
   containers.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model-02=
.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model-02.=
txt

From daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com  Fri Oct 28 03:18:36 2011
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From: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, "draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3@tools.ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 12:18:29 +0200
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Hi Lou,

Thanks for the careful review, please find comment/replies in line [DSP]

Daniele, Sergio, Pietro=20

-----Original Message-----
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of L=
ou Berger
Sent: mercoled=EC 26 ottobre 2011 0.37
To: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3@tools.ietf.org
Cc: CCAMP
Subject: [CCAMP] some comments on gmpls-ospf-g709v3-00

Authors,
	Nice job bringing this work to the point where it's been accepted as a WG =
draft.  I have a few technical comments/questions on the draft that I'd lik=
e to discuss with you and the WG (with chair hat off):

1) Switching types/caps

You say:
   A single ISCD MAY be used for the advertisement of unbundled or
   bundled links supporting homogeneous multiplexing hierarchies and the
   same Tributary Slot Granularity (TSG).  A different ISCD MUST be used
   for each different muxing hierarchy (muxing tree in the following
   examples) and different TSG supported within the TE Link, if it
   includes component links with differing characteristics.

Given this restriction why not use different switch caps, one for each ODU =
(H) type, all which use the same ISCD format?

Unless I'm mistaken this would simplify operation in the simple/single laye=
r cases.  It also doesn't add any real complexity to the more complex cases=
.  (For example, in your example the switch cap would be set to correspond =
to the signal type used with #stages=3D0.)

[DSP] - It was present in an older version but we don't recall why we were =
asked to use a single switching capability. We have no objection with your =
proposal.

2) SCSI TLV formatting

The field descriptions are missing format related conformance (RFC2119) lan=
guage.

[DSP] - Ok, will be fixed.

3) SCSI TLV procedures

You have defined the formats of the TLVs in Section 4.1, but not explicitly=
 how they are to be used.  Some RFC2119 language really is needed to cover =
how the SCSI is to be encoded and parsed.  At a minimum, any TLV inclusion,=
 ordering requirements, and exception handling should be covered.  (For exa=
mple, your examples always show a particular ordering relative to Stage#, i=
s this required, recommended, or just a possibility.  You have some informa=
tive language, which is great, but you also need some RFC2119 language.)

[DSP] - Ok=20

4) Type 2 and Type 3 TLVs

It seems that type 2 and type 3 TLVs are used in tandem, i.e., both are eit=
her present or absent.  Is this correct?  If so, they should be combined in=
to a single TLV to simplify operation (e.g., there is no error case where o=
nly one is present to check for.)

[DSP] - Type 2 and 3 refer to ODUflex, where the MAX LSP bandwdith is a req=
uired information, while the Unreserved Bandwidth is desired but does not g=
ive enough information on the number of ODUflex LSPs that can be carried ov=
er the advertised link. In other words there could be implementations using=
 both of them and other using just the MAX LSP Bandwidth info. We could say=
 that the Unreserved Bandwidht TLV (Type 2) is optional.

5) Note that the Encoding field may be impacted by the still unresolved dis=
cussion related to TSG/PT that took place a couple of weeks ago on the list=
.  (I'm personally leaning towards representing PT in encoding as this bett=
er matches what happens in the data plane and is more closely aligned to th=
e general definition of the encoding field.)

[DSP] - This doc will be updated accordingly to the decision. Note taken!

6) Finally, some nits:
s/[OTN-INFO], the OSPF-TE/[OTN-INFO], OSPF-TE s/list of them/list s/Priorit=
y :8 bits/Priority (8 bits):
s/infer/imply

[DSP] - Ok

Much thanks,
Lou
_______________________________________________
CCAMP mailing list
CCAMP@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Fri Oct 28 05:06:02 2011
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Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-assoc-ext-01.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane =
Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : RSVP Association Object Extensions
	Author(s)       : Lou Berger
                          Francois Le Faucheur
                          Ashok Narayanan
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-assoc-ext-01.txt
	Pages           : 15
	Date            : 2011-10-28

   The RSVP ASSOCIATION object was defined in the context of GMPLS
   (Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching) controlled label
   switched paths (LSPs).  In this context, the object is used to
   associate recovery LSPs with the LSP they are protecting.  This
   object also has broader applicability as a mechanism to associate
   RSVP state, and this document defines how the ASSOCIATION object
   can be more generally applied.  This document also defines
   extended ASSOCIATION objects which, in particular, can be used in
   the context of Transport Profile of Multiprotocol Label Switching
   (MPLS-TP).  This document updates RFC 2205, RFC 3209, and RFC
   3473.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-assoc-ext-01.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-assoc-ext-01.txt

From lberger@labn.net  Fri Oct 28 05:09:56 2011
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-assoc-ext-01.txt
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FYI - the main change in this document is to align the document with the
final version of TP-Identifiers/RFC6370 (removal of ICC) as requested at
the last meeting.

Lou

On 10/28/2011 8:06 AM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.
> 
> 	Title           : RSVP Association Object Extensions
> 	Author(s)       : Lou Berger
>                           Francois Le Faucheur
>                           Ashok Narayanan
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-assoc-ext-01.txt
> 	Pages           : 15
> 	Date            : 2011-10-28
> 
>    The RSVP ASSOCIATION object was defined in the context of GMPLS
>    (Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching) controlled label
>    switched paths (LSPs).  In this context, the object is used to
>    associate recovery LSPs with the LSP they are protecting.  This
>    object also has broader applicability as a mechanism to associate
>    RSVP state, and this document defines how the ASSOCIATION object
>    can be more generally applied.  This document also defines
>    extended ASSOCIATION objects which, in particular, can be used in
>    the context of Transport Profile of Multiprotocol Label Switching
>    (MPLS-TP).  This document updates RFC 2205, RFC 3209, and RFC
>    3473.
> 
> 
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-assoc-ext-01.txt
> 
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> 
> This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-assoc-ext-01.txt
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> 
> 
> 
> 

From Alan.Davey@metaswitch.com  Fri Oct 28 07:29:51 2011
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From: Alan Davey <Alan.Davey@metaswitch.com>
To: "ccamp@ietf.org" <ccamp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Questions on draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf 
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Authors

I have been reading draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf and I h=
ave a couple of high level questions.  Could you please let me know your th=
oughts on the following.


-          Section 2 states that all sub-TLVs occur at most once in any giv=
en Optical Node TLV.  However, on referring to the TLV definitions in draft=
-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode it appears that some sub-TLVs may appear more t=
han once.  For example, see section 4.2 Resource Block Wavelength Constrain=
ts sub-TLV.  I think we should remove the restriction in section 2.  Do you=
 agree?

-          RFCs for Automatically Switched Optical Network (ASON) Routing h=
ave found it useful to add a Local TE Router sub-TLV into the top-level OSP=
F TE TLVs.  This is because a control plane router may be associated with m=
ultiple data plane nodes and in such a case the routing protocol must be ab=
le to associate the advertised information with the correct node.  For exam=
ple, RFC5787 defines a Local TE Router sub-TLV for the Node Attribute top-l=
evel TLV.  I would like to add a Local TE Router sub-TLV to the Optical Nod=
e Property TLV, what do you think?


Regards
Alan Davey


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	text-indent:-18.0pt;}
ol
	{margin-bottom:0cm;}
ul
	{margin-bottom:0cm;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Authors<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have been reading draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-com=
patibility-ospf and I have a couple of high level questions.&nbsp; Could yo=
u please let me know your thoughts on the following.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=
=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>Section 2 states that all sub-TLVs occur at most on=
ce in any given Optical Node TLV.&nbsp; However, on referring to the TLV de=
finitions in draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode it appears that some sub-TLVs=
 may appear more than once.&nbsp; For example,
 see section 4.2 Resource Block Wavelength Constraints sub-TLV.&nbsp; I thi=
nk we should remove the restriction in section 2. &nbsp;Do you agree?<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=
=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>RFCs for Automatically Switched Optical Network (AS=
ON) Routing have found it useful to add a Local TE Router sub-TLV into the =
top-level OSPF TE TLVs.&nbsp; This is because a control plane router may be=
 associated with multiple data plane
 nodes and in such a case the routing protocol must be able to associate th=
e advertised information with the correct node.&nbsp; For example, RFC5787 =
defines a Local TE Router sub-TLV for the Node Attribute top-level TLV.&nbs=
p; I would like to add a Local TE Router sub-TLV
 to the Optical Node Property TLV, what do you think?<span style=3D"color:#=
1F497D"> &nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Alan Davey<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_C2EE31C852049D499842B19FC01C0804165CBFB6ENFICSMBX1datco_--

From adrian@olddog.co.uk  Fri Oct 28 10:23:54 2011
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Hi Alan,

Nice to be made to read stuff because you come across typos. I think =
that
Section 3.2

   If the P-flag in the Actions field in the LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID
   object in a Resv message is set (i.e., one) indicating that the LSP
   is not to be advertised as a link, this TLV SHOULD NOT be present and
   MUST be ignored if encountered.

s/Resv/Path/   !

That merits an erratum if anyone can be bothered.

> I have a question on RFC6107; is it permitted to have more than one
> Target IGP Identification TLV in a single LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID =
object?
>
> I cannot find a definitive statement in the RFC as to whether or not =
multiple=20
> Target IGP Identification TLVs are permitted in a single object.=A0

Agreed. No such statement found.

> However, I think that this should NOT be permitted.
>
> My thinking is as follows.
> - Section 3.4 states that =93It is possible that an LSP will be used =
to offer
>   capacity and connectivity to multiple other networks.=A0 In this =
case,
>   multiple instances of the LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID object are
>   permitted in the same Path and Resv messages.=94
>- My reading of this is that if multiple Target IGP Identification TLVs
>   are required then they should each appear in a separate=20
>   LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID object.
>- However, if multiple Target IGP Identification TLVs are permitted
>   in a single LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID object then there are two
>   protocol constructs with the same meaning, which could lead to
>   interoperability problems.
>- Therefore RFC6107 should state that at most one Target IGP=20
>   Identification TLV may appear in a single LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID
>   object, but I cannot find any such statement.

i wouldn't object to imposing this limitation, but I don't see it as
particularly necessary: why would there be interop problems if both =
multiple
TLVs and multiple objects are allowed? Conservative on what you send, =
liberal on
what you receive. Since the RFC does not (currently) prohibit either =
option,
there would be no reason for an implementation to not be able to receive =
either.

I don't read "are permitted" to mean "required"

There would seem to be a (minor) saving of bits on the wire in the case =
that
multiple uses share the settings of the common part of the object. =
However,
since this is pretty unlikely:
1. The chance of multiple TLVs being present is small
2. The hardship of banning multiple TLVs is small

This could probably (just about) qualify for an erratum. Really it is a
technical change, not a typographical fix, but we might squeeze it in as =
a one
line change.

Cheers,
Adrian



From acee.lindem@ericsson.com  Fri Oct 28 14:19:07 2011
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From: Acee Lindem <acee.lindem@ericsson.com>
To: Leeyoung <leeyoung@huawei.com>
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Hi Young,

On Oct 27, 2011, at 9:46 AM, Leeyoung wrote:

> Hi Andrea and Acee,
>
> What I am proposing is this:
>
> In Section 2, we have the following statement:
>
>   All sub-TLVs defined here may occur at most once in any given Optical
>   Node TLV. These restrictions need not apply to future sub-TLVs.
>   Unrecognized sub-TLVs are ignored.
>
> I will change the above statement to the following:
>
>   All sub-TLVs defined here may occur at most once in any given Optical
>   Node TLV. "At most once" means that if there is sub-TLV related informa=
tion,
>   it will be always included. These restrictions need not apply to future
>   sub-TLVs. Unrecognized sub-TLVs are ignored.
>
> This statement assures that all the related sub-TLVs are always included =
in any given
> Optical Node TLV leaving no room not to include such sub-TLVs in the Opti=
cal
> Node TLV.
>
> In Section 3.2, we have the following statement:
>
>   In the highly unlikely event that a WSON sub-TLV by itself would
>   result in an LSA exceeding the MTU, all five WSON specific sub-TLVs
>   in this document provide mechanisms that allow them to be subdivided
>   into smaller sub-TLVs that can be sent in separate OSPF TE LSAs.
>
> I will change the above statement to the following:
>
>   In the highly unlikely event that a WSON sub-TLV by itself would
>   result in an LSA exceeding the MTU, all five WSON specific sub-TLVs
>   in this document provide mechanisms that allow them to be subdivided
>   into smaller sub-TLVs that can be sent in separate OSPF TE LSAs.
>
>   What is suggested as below is the only option allowed when dividing up
>   the current set of sub-TLVs into separate OSPF TE LSAs. This means
>   each sub-TLV will be packaged as the sole element in an OSPF TE LSA
>   with a unique LSA instance number. When such division is implemented, t=
hen
>   the source node must flush the existing LSA (i.e., the original OSPF
>   TE LSA with all sub-TLV's packaged together as described in Section 2).
>   This will avoid duplicating the same information being advertised acros=
s
>   multiple LSAs.

s/LSA instance number/Link State ID/

So, it is not expected that a sub-TLV will exceed the IP MTU and, if it doe=
s, we simply rely on IP fragmentation/reassembly as we do in situations whe=
re the Router-LSAs and many interfaces in a single area. Correct?

Thanks,
Acee

>
> Please let me know if these texts will remove any ambiguity of the curren=
t
> Texts.
>
> Best Regards,
> Young
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Acee Lindem [mailto:acee.lindem@ericsson.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 9:18 AM
> To: Andrea Zanardi
> Cc: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibili=
ty-ospf-06.txt
>
> Hi Andrea,
> On Oct 4, 2011, at 3:03 PM, Andrea Zanardi wrote:
>
>> Hi Acee,
>>
>> On 10/04/2011 07:03 PM, Acee Lindem wrote:
>>> Hi Andrea,
>>>
>>> On Oct 4, 2011, at 10:10 AM, Andrea Zanardi wrote:
>> ....
>>>
>>>>
>>>> My point is in avoiding ambiguities: if the support for multiple LSA i=
nstances for the
>>>> same entity top TLV is requested, it should be explicitly stated as ma=
ndatory
>>>> (possibly providing explicit rules for the subdivision, as in Chap. 3 =
of the draft).
>>>
>>> There are not multiple instances of the same LSA. Rather they are uniqu=
e LSAs,
>>> as identified by the (Type, Link State ID, Advertising Router) tuple.
>>> In this case, they have different Link State IDs.
>>> One thing that is confusing is that RFC 3630 refers to the portion of t=
he Link State ID
>>> providing uniqueness as "Instance".
>>> Also note that draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt d=
oesn't include any
>>> additions to the Link TLV so I'm not sure why you are citing it in disc=
ussions of the new top-level TLVs.
>>
>> I was replying to Young email providing the Link TLV and
>> RFC 3630 as an example of the usage of multiple LSAs and of
>> sending LSA updates with missing sub-TLVs;
>> I was discussing about the correctness of the example,
>> that's why I was citing the Link TLV.
>
> Ok.
>
>>
>> The usage of the word "instance" is probably not correct.
>>
>> What I meant by "multiple LSA instances" was different LSAs (with distin=
ct LS ID
>> and both present in the TE DB at the same time) describing the same enti=
ty
>> (e.g. the same link by including the same Link Type / Link ID sub-TLVs)
>> each one providing a subset of the information (e.g. a subset of the oth=
er sub-TLVs).
>>
>> Considering the draft TLVs, this should be the case of Chap. 3.2.1 "Sub-=
Division by Options", e.g.:
>> two LSAs with a Resource Block Information sub-TLV with the same RB Set =
Field
>> and different sub-sets of optional sub-sub-TLVs.
>>
>> To avoid ambiguities, it should be clear that the options described in C=
hap. 3
>> are the only options and that, even if they "can" be used when generatin=
g
>> the LSAs, they "must" all be supported when receiving and 'using' the LS=
As.
>
> Agreed. Splitting information across multiple LSAs will result in some ad=
ded complexity.
> For TLVs or sub-TLVs that are required for a single WSON computation, the=
 WSON path computation must concatenate them when doing that computation.
> Today, multiple OSPFv3 Router-LSAs may be originated and implementation M=
UST use the concatenation when doing the OSPFv3 SPF computation.
>
> Thanks,
> Acee
>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Andrea
>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Acee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Andrea
>>>>
>>>> On 10/03/2011 09:34 PM, Leeyoung wrote:
>>>>> Hi Andrea,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for your interest and input to this issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> My overall point was that the current GMPLS TE LSA (per RFC 3630) doe=
s not specify detail implementations as to how to divide up the TE Link TLV=
s into static vs. dynamic nor how to use multiple TE LSAs. The current WSON=
 document follows a similar document philosophy with the GMPLS predecessor.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regarding your point on how the TE DB works in regard to missing sub-=
TLVs are deleted seems to me a particular implementation, which is most sim=
plistic in nature.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>> Young
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behal=
f Of Andrea Zanardi
>>>>> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 9:14 AM
>>>>> To: Leeyoung
>>>>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compati=
bility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Young,
>>>>>
>>>>> I was following the discussion and I have a doubt about
>>>>> your example related to the TE Link TLV.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's true that the attributes sub-TLV are not mandatory per RFC 3630,
>>>>> but I don't think that means that they can be not included in an LSA =
update
>>>>> if unchanged (implying that the previous value persists).
>>>>>
>>>>> As for my understanding of how OSPF-TE works, the managed TE DB entit=
y is the LSA.
>>>>> When an LSA update is processed, the previous version is deleted from=
 the TE DB
>>>>> and it is replaced by the new one: link attributes related to missing=
 sub-TLV are
>>>>> deleted, so they must be present even if unchanged.
>>>>>
>>>>> In theory, the set of link attributes could be statically divided
>>>>> in two different LSAs instances (updated independently),
>>>>> but I don't think current implementations handle this scenario
>>>>> (also because, in my opinion, it's not suggested by RFC 3630 and
>>>>>  it gives no rule on how to divide them).
>>>>>
>>>>> But I ask to the mailing list if this is the correct interpretation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Andrea
>>>>>
>>>>> On 09/30/2011 11:16 PM, Leeyoung wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Pierre,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I got your point. Let me ask you this question. In the current GMPLS=
 OSPF TE Link TLV are defined under Opaque TE LSA with the following attrib=
utes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - TE Metric
>>>>>> - max B/W
>>>>>> - max reservable b/w
>>>>>> - unreserved b/w
>>>>>> - Admin Group
>>>>>> - Link Protection Type
>>>>>> - SRLG
>>>>>> - ISCD
>>>>>> - etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And these are a mixture of static and dynamic information and yet th=
ey are assembled together as one TE Link TLV. For instance the ISCD is quit=
e similar to Resource Block Info in that it does not change often unless th=
ere are new elements added in the node or configuration changes and yet it =
is packaged together with other dynamic information.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are many ways to keep static/unchanged information from being =
flooded. Only the Link Type and Link ID which are mandatory in the TE Link =
TLV per RFC3630. All other sub-TLV are optional and may occur at most once =
(when there are enough changes from the previous period that deserve an upd=
ate) and need not be included in the TE Link TLV when there is no need for =
updating.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I really don't see the need for a separate top-level TLV and/or a se=
parate LSA for the Resource Block information.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Young
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) [mailto:pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.c=
om]
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 9:39 AM
>>>>>> To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
>>>>>> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compat=
ibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Young,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I understand the content of your answer, but I'm not satisfied with =
it.
>>>>>> My concern deals with providing a unique reading/interpretation of t=
he OSPF-TE extensions.
>>>>>> We would like to make sure that any implementation complying to the =
drafts would provide the same LSAs when applied to the same network.
>>>>>> With this perspective in mind, we wish to get drafts with sufficient=
 documentation to make sure the LSA design process to be depicted, by desig=
n rules.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hence the content of your answer leaving me the "opportunity to do a=
s I wish", is not pleasing me, I would rather have strict rules, and discus=
sions with the WG on the design of those.
>>>>>> That is why a first design rule, we could agree on is: to gather the=
 Resource Block Information TLVs inside a dedicated LSA, possibly with a de=
dicated top-level TLV (which in my mind allows to enforce this design rule)=
.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Pierre
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>>>> De : Leeyoung [mailto:leeyoung@huawei.com]
>>>>>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 28 septembre 2011 00:06
>>>>>> =C0 : PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE); ccamp@ietf.org
>>>>>> Objet : RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compati=
bility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Pierre,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please see-inline for my reply to your first point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Young
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) [mailto:pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.c=
om]
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 3:28 AM
>>>>>> To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
>>>>>> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compat=
ibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Young, and CCAMPers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was off the mailing lists for the last two weeks and being back I =
notice a lot of exchanges, which I'm very glad of.
>>>>>> I've also noticed many drafts have been updated.
>>>>>> Concerning this specific draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-=
ospf-06, I wanted to comment section 3.
>>>>>> Back in Quebec, I expressed my point of view (shared with Cyril, Jul=
ien and Giovanni) that current drafts were lacking guidance regarding the w=
ay to design LSAs that were to depict an WSON node with OEOs.
>>>>>> This section 3 provides additional material to help designing the LS=
A.
>>>>>> I would like to know whether authors are willing to pursue further i=
n this direction, which is to my mind a real corner stone, that would help =
everyone agree on a solution.
>>>>>> A first point could concern the Resource Block Information (reminder=
:<ResourceBlockInfo>    ::=3D ([<ResourceSet>]<InputConstraints>    <Proces=
singCapabilities>    <OutputConstraints>):
>>>>>>      We all agree that these information are static, that we should =
not replicate this TLV whatever the number not the layout of OEO boards of =
a given type.
>>>>>> Then, we could dedicate a specific independant flooding entity. This=
 would be defined once for all, and that would not leave room to different =
interpretations.
>>>>>> What about this first point?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> YOUNG>>    If I understand you correctly, what you are saying is sin=
ce the Resource Block Info sub-TLV is very static in nature, advertisement =
of this sub-TLV should be treated differently from the rest of static-TLVs =
(which may change over time). Is this what you are saying?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If my interpretation of your comment is correct,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - The current mechanism allows what you want: Please see the first p=
aragraph in Section 3.2
>>>>>>    "In the highly unlikely event that a WSON sub-TLV by itself would
>>>>>>    result in an LSA exceeding the MTU, all five WSON specific sub-TL=
Vs
>>>>>>    in this document provide mechanisms that allow them to be subdivi=
ded
>>>>>>    into smaller sub-TLVs that can be sent in separate OSPF TE LSAs."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> According to this clause, you can separate the Resource Block Info S=
ub-TLV as the sole entry defined in the Optical Node property TLV in a sepa=
rate TE LSA from the rest if you will. Nothing prevents this particular way=
 of packaging. (Isn't this what you meant "a specific independent flooding =
entity"?)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Please let me know if this explanation satisfies you. Thanks --- Y=
oung
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pierre
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>>>> De : ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] De la pa=
rt de Leeyoung Envoy=E9 : jeudi 15 septembre 2011 21:59 =C0 : ccamp@ietf.or=
g Objet : Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibilit=
y-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> After 05 version publication, Acee provided a number of valuable com=
ments and suggestions. This revision (06) reflects those changes. Please no=
te the following updates:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Change the title of the draft to "GMPLS OSPF Enhancement..." from =
"OSPF Enhancement..." to make sure the changes apply to the GMPLS OSPF rath=
er than the base OSPF.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Add specific OSPF procedures on how sub-TLVs are packaged per [RFC=
3630] and editorial change including avoiding "multiple instances of TE LSA=
" to "multiple TE LSAs".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your comments are always appreciated. Thanks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best Regards.
>>>>>> Young
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Beha=
lf Of internet-drafts@ietf.org
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 2:48 PM
>>>>>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
>>>>>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
>>>>>> Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibil=
ity-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts d=
irectories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement=
 Plane Working Group of the IETF.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Title           : GMPLS OSPF Enhancement for Signal and Network E=
lement Compatibility for Wavelength Switched Optical Networks
>>>>>>    Author(s)       : Young Lee
>>>>>>                           Greg M. Bernstein
>>>>>>    Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf=
-06.txt
>>>>>>    Pages           : 14
>>>>>>    Date            : 2011-09-15
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    This document provides GMPLS OSPF routing enhancements to support
>>>>>>    signal compatibility constraints associated with WSON network
>>>>>>    elements. These routing enhancements are required in common optic=
al
>>>>>>    or hybrid electro-optical networks where not all of the optical
>>>>>>    signals in the network are compatible with all network elements
>>>>>>    participating in the network.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    This compatibility constraint model is applicable to common optic=
al
>>>>>>    or hybrid electro optical systems such as OEO switches, regenerat=
ors,
>>>>>>    and wavelength converters since such systems can be limited to
>>>>>>    processing only certain types of WSON signals.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-com=
patibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
>>>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-comp=
atibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Andrea Zanardi
>>>> CREATE-NET
>>>> Engineering&  Fast Prototyping (ENGINE) Area
>>>> Senior Engineer
>>>> Via alla Cascata 56/D - 38123 Povo Trento (Italy)
>>>> e-mail: andrea.zanardi@create-net.org
>>>> Tel: (+39) 0461 408400 - interno/extension 1407
>>>> Mobile: (+39) 340 0011837
>>>> Fax: (+39) 0461 421157
>>>> Skype: zanardi_andrea
>>>> www.create-net.org
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity =
to
>>>> which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged
>>>> material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, o=
r
>>>> taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or
>>>> entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited according to =
the
>>>> Italian Law 196/2003 of the Legislature. If you received this in error=
,
>>>> please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer.
>>>>
>>>> Le informazioni contenute in questo messaggio di posta elettronica e n=
ei
>>>> file allegati sono da considerarsi strettamente riservate. Il loro uti=
lizzo
>>>> e' consentito esclusivamente al destinatario del messaggio, per le fin=
alita'
>>>> indicate nel messaggio stesso. Qualora riceveste questo messaggio senz=
a
>>>> esserne il destinatario, Vi preghiamo cortesemente di darcene notizia =
via
>>>> e-mail e di procedere alla cancellazione del messaggio stesso dal Vost=
ro
>>>> sistema. Trattenere il messaggio stesso, divulgarlo anche in parte,
>>>> distribuirlo ad altri soggetti, copiarlo, od utilizzarlo per finalita'
>>>> diverse, costituisce comportamento contrario ai principi dettati dal D=
. Lgs.
>>>> 196/2003.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> Andrea Zanardi
>> CREATE-NET
>> Engineering & Fast Prototyping (ENGINE) Area
>> Senior Engineer
>> Via alla Cascata 56/D - 38123 Povo Trento (Italy)
>> e-mail: andrea.zanardi@create-net.org
>> Tel: (+39) 0461 408400 - interno/extension 1407
>> Mobile: (+39) 340 0011837
>> Fax: (+39) 0461 421157
>> Skype: zanardi_andrea
>> www.create-net.org
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to
>> which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged
>> material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or
>> taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or
>> entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited according to th=
e
>> Italian Law 196/2003 of the Legislature. If you received this in error,
>> please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer.
>>
>> Le informazioni contenute in questo messaggio di posta elettronica e nei
>> file allegati sono da considerarsi strettamente riservate. Il loro utili=
zzo
>> e' consentito esclusivamente al destinatario del messaggio, per le final=
ita'
>> indicate nel messaggio stesso. Qualora riceveste questo messaggio senza
>> esserne il destinatario, Vi preghiamo cortesemente di darcene notizia vi=
a
>> e-mail e di procedere alla cancellazione del messaggio stesso dal Vostro
>> sistema. Trattenere il messaggio stesso, divulgarlo anche in parte,
>> distribuirlo ad altri soggetti, copiarlo, od utilizzarlo per finalita'
>> diverse, costituisce comportamento contrario ai principi dettati dal D. =
Lgs.
>> 196/2003.
>>
>


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To: Zhangfatai <zhangfatai@huawei.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 17:29:27 -0400
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Comment regarding draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-general-constraints-ospf-te-02
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Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-07.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane =
Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : GMPLS OSPF Enhancement for Signal and Network Element Co=
mpatibility for Wavelength Switched Optical Networks
	Author(s)       : Young Lee
                          Greg M. Bernstein
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-07.txt
	Pages           : 14
	Date            : 2011-10-30

   This document provides GMPLS OSPF routing enhancements to support
   signal compatibility constraints associated with WSON network
   elements. These routing enhancements are required in common optical
   or hybrid electro-optical networks where not all of the optical
   signals in the network are compatible with all network elements
   participating in the network.

   This compatibility constraint model is applicable to common optical
   or hybrid electro optical systems such as OEO switches,
   regenerators, and wavelength converters since such systems can be
   limited to processing only certain types of WSON signals.



A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibil=
ity-ospf-07.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibili=
ty-ospf-07.txt

From leeyoung@huawei.com  Sun Oct 30 13:42:03 2011
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Hi Acee,

I accepted your suggestion on

s/LSA instance number/Link State ID/

I have question on your statement: You said below:=20

ACEE>> So, it is not expected that a sub-TLV will exceed the IP MTU and, if=
 it does, we simply rely on IP fragmentation/reassembly as we do in situati=
ons where the Router-LSAs and many interfaces in a single area. Correct?

YOUNG>> What I meant is as follows: The Optical Node TLV under which five s=
ub-TLVs are specified will not be expected to exceed the IP MTU. If it does=
, the suggestion is to define a set of five new Optical Node TLVs, each wit=
h a new unique LSA ID under which to specify only one sub-TLV respectively =
for each of the five new TLVs, to ensure each new Optical Node TLV does not=
 exceed the IP MTU. This solution would prevent actually from relying on IP=
 fragmentation/reassembly. Instead of sending one big TLV, we sub-divide in=
to five smaller TLVs and send them one at a time with a new LSA ID.=20

Please let me know if we are on the same page on this point. Thanks.

Young


-----Original Message-----
From: Acee Lindem [mailto:acee.lindem@ericsson.com]=20
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 4:19 PM
To: Leeyoung
Cc: Andrea Zanardi; ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility=
-ospf-06.txt

Hi Young,

On Oct 27, 2011, at 9:46 AM, Leeyoung wrote:

> Hi Andrea and Acee,
>
> What I am proposing is this:
>
> In Section 2, we have the following statement:
>
>   All sub-TLVs defined here may occur at most once in any given Optical
>   Node TLV. These restrictions need not apply to future sub-TLVs.
>   Unrecognized sub-TLVs are ignored.
>
> I will change the above statement to the following:
>
>   All sub-TLVs defined here may occur at most once in any given Optical
>   Node TLV. "At most once" means that if there is sub-TLV related informa=
tion,
>   it will be always included. These restrictions need not apply to future
>   sub-TLVs. Unrecognized sub-TLVs are ignored.
>
> This statement assures that all the related sub-TLVs are always included =
in any given
> Optical Node TLV leaving no room not to include such sub-TLVs in the Opti=
cal
> Node TLV.
>
> In Section 3.2, we have the following statement:
>
>   In the highly unlikely event that a WSON sub-TLV by itself would
>   result in an LSA exceeding the MTU, all five WSON specific sub-TLVs
>   in this document provide mechanisms that allow them to be subdivided
>   into smaller sub-TLVs that can be sent in separate OSPF TE LSAs.
>
> I will change the above statement to the following:
>
>   In the highly unlikely event that a WSON sub-TLV by itself would
>   result in an LSA exceeding the MTU, all five WSON specific sub-TLVs
>   in this document provide mechanisms that allow them to be subdivided
>   into smaller sub-TLVs that can be sent in separate OSPF TE LSAs.
>
>   What is suggested as below is the only option allowed when dividing up
>   the current set of sub-TLVs into separate OSPF TE LSAs. This means
>   each sub-TLV will be packaged as the sole element in an OSPF TE LSA
>   with a unique LSA instance number. When such division is implemented, t=
hen
>   the source node must flush the existing LSA (i.e., the original OSPF
>   TE LSA with all sub-TLV's packaged together as described in Section 2).
>   This will avoid duplicating the same information being advertised acros=
s
>   multiple LSAs.

s/LSA instance number/Link State ID/

So, it is not expected that a sub-TLV will exceed the IP MTU and, if it doe=
s, we simply rely on IP fragmentation/reassembly as we do in situations whe=
re the Router-LSAs and many interfaces in a single area. Correct?

Thanks,
Acee

>
> Please let me know if these texts will remove any ambiguity of the curren=
t
> Texts.
>
> Best Regards,
> Young
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Acee Lindem [mailto:acee.lindem@ericsson.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 9:18 AM
> To: Andrea Zanardi
> Cc: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibili=
ty-ospf-06.txt
>
> Hi Andrea,
> On Oct 4, 2011, at 3:03 PM, Andrea Zanardi wrote:
>
>> Hi Acee,
>>
>> On 10/04/2011 07:03 PM, Acee Lindem wrote:
>>> Hi Andrea,
>>>
>>> On Oct 4, 2011, at 10:10 AM, Andrea Zanardi wrote:
>> ....
>>>
>>>>
>>>> My point is in avoiding ambiguities: if the support for multiple LSA i=
nstances for the
>>>> same entity top TLV is requested, it should be explicitly stated as ma=
ndatory
>>>> (possibly providing explicit rules for the subdivision, as in Chap. 3 =
of the draft).
>>>
>>> There are not multiple instances of the same LSA. Rather they are uniqu=
e LSAs,
>>> as identified by the (Type, Link State ID, Advertising Router) tuple.
>>> In this case, they have different Link State IDs.
>>> One thing that is confusing is that RFC 3630 refers to the portion of t=
he Link State ID
>>> providing uniqueness as "Instance".
>>> Also note that draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-06.txt d=
oesn't include any
>>> additions to the Link TLV so I'm not sure why you are citing it in disc=
ussions of the new top-level TLVs.
>>
>> I was replying to Young email providing the Link TLV and
>> RFC 3630 as an example of the usage of multiple LSAs and of
>> sending LSA updates with missing sub-TLVs;
>> I was discussing about the correctness of the example,
>> that's why I was citing the Link TLV.
>
> Ok.
>
>>
>> The usage of the word "instance" is probably not correct.
>>
>> What I meant by "multiple LSA instances" was different LSAs (with distin=
ct LS ID
>> and both present in the TE DB at the same time) describing the same enti=
ty
>> (e.g. the same link by including the same Link Type / Link ID sub-TLVs)
>> each one providing a subset of the information (e.g. a subset of the oth=
er sub-TLVs).
>>
>> Considering the draft TLVs, this should be the case of Chap. 3.2.1 "Sub-=
Division by Options", e.g.:
>> two LSAs with a Resource Block Information sub-TLV with the same RB Set =
Field
>> and different sub-sets of optional sub-sub-TLVs.
>>
>> To avoid ambiguities, it should be clear that the options described in C=
hap. 3
>> are the only options and that, even if they "can" be used when generatin=
g
>> the LSAs, they "must" all be supported when receiving and 'using' the LS=
As.
>
> Agreed. Splitting information across multiple LSAs will result in some ad=
ded complexity.
> For TLVs or sub-TLVs that are required for a single WSON computation, the=
 WSON path computation must concatenate them when doing that computation.
> Today, multiple OSPFv3 Router-LSAs may be originated and implementation M=
UST use the concatenation when doing the OSPFv3 SPF computation.
>
> Thanks,
> Acee
>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Andrea
>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Acee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Andrea
>>>>
>>>> On 10/03/2011 09:34 PM, Leeyoung wrote:
>>>>> Hi Andrea,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for your interest and input to this issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> My overall point was that the current GMPLS TE LSA (per RFC 3630) doe=
s not specify detail implementations as to how to divide up the TE Link TLV=
s into static vs. dynamic nor how to use multiple TE LSAs. The current WSON=
 document follows a similar document philosophy with the GMPLS predecessor.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regarding your point on how the TE DB works in regard to missing sub-=
TLVs are deleted seems to me a particular implementation, which is most sim=
plistic in nature.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>> Young
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behal=
f Of Andrea Zanardi
>>>>> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 9:14 AM
>>>>> To: Leeyoung
>>>>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compati=
bility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Young,
>>>>>
>>>>> I was following the discussion and I have a doubt about
>>>>> your example related to the TE Link TLV.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's true that the attributes sub-TLV are not mandatory per RFC 3630,
>>>>> but I don't think that means that they can be not included in an LSA =
update
>>>>> if unchanged (implying that the previous value persists).
>>>>>
>>>>> As for my understanding of how OSPF-TE works, the managed TE DB entit=
y is the LSA.
>>>>> When an LSA update is processed, the previous version is deleted from=
 the TE DB
>>>>> and it is replaced by the new one: link attributes related to missing=
 sub-TLV are
>>>>> deleted, so they must be present even if unchanged.
>>>>>
>>>>> In theory, the set of link attributes could be statically divided
>>>>> in two different LSAs instances (updated independently),
>>>>> but I don't think current implementations handle this scenario
>>>>> (also because, in my opinion, it's not suggested by RFC 3630 and
>>>>>  it gives no rule on how to divide them).
>>>>>
>>>>> But I ask to the mailing list if this is the correct interpretation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Andrea
>>>>>
>>>>> On 09/30/2011 11:16 PM, Leeyoung wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Pierre,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I got your point. Let me ask you this question. In the current GMPLS=
 OSPF TE Link TLV are defined under Opaque TE LSA with the following attrib=
utes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - TE Metric
>>>>>> - max B/W
>>>>>> - max reservable b/w
>>>>>> - unreserved b/w
>>>>>> - Admin Group
>>>>>> - Link Protection Type
>>>>>> - SRLG
>>>>>> - ISCD
>>>>>> - etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And these are a mixture of static and dynamic information and yet th=
ey are assembled together as one TE Link TLV. For instance the ISCD is quit=
e similar to Resource Block Info in that it does not change often unless th=
ere are new elements added in the node or configuration changes and yet it =
is packaged together with other dynamic information.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are many ways to keep static/unchanged information from being =
flooded. Only the Link Type and Link ID which are mandatory in the TE Link =
TLV per RFC3630. All other sub-TLV are optional and may occur at most once =
(when there are enough changes from the previous period that deserve an upd=
ate) and need not be included in the TE Link TLV when there is no need for =
updating.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I really don't see the need for a separate top-level TLV and/or a se=
parate LSA for the Resource Block information.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Young
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) [mailto:pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.c=
om]
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 9:39 AM
>>>>>> To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
>>>>>> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compat=
ibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Young,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I understand the content of your answer, but I'm not satisfied with =
it.
>>>>>> My concern deals with providing a unique reading/interpretation of t=
he OSPF-TE extensions.
>>>>>> We would like to make sure that any implementation complying to the =
drafts would provide the same LSAs when applied to the same network.
>>>>>> With this perspective in mind, we wish to get drafts with sufficient=
 documentation to make sure the LSA design process to be depicted, by desig=
n rules.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hence the content of your answer leaving me the "opportunity to do a=
s I wish", is not pleasing me, I would rather have strict rules, and discus=
sions with the WG on the design of those.
>>>>>> That is why a first design rule, we could agree on is: to gather the=
 Resource Block Information TLVs inside a dedicated LSA, possibly with a de=
dicated top-level TLV (which in my mind allows to enforce this design rule)=
.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Pierre
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>>>> De : Leeyoung [mailto:leeyoung@huawei.com]
>>>>>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 28 septembre 2011 00:06
>>>>>> =C0 : PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE); ccamp@ietf.org
>>>>>> Objet : RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compati=
bility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Pierre,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please see-inline for my reply to your first point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Young
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) [mailto:pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.c=
om]
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 3:28 AM
>>>>>> To: Leeyoung; ccamp@ietf.org
>>>>>> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compat=
ibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Young, and CCAMPers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was off the mailing lists for the last two weeks and being back I =
notice a lot of exchanges, which I'm very glad of.
>>>>>> I've also noticed many drafts have been updated.
>>>>>> Concerning this specific draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-=
ospf-06, I wanted to comment section 3.
>>>>>> Back in Quebec, I expressed my point of view (shared with Cyril, Jul=
ien and Giovanni) that current drafts were lacking guidance regarding the w=
ay to design LSAs that were to depict an WSON node with OEOs.
>>>>>> This section 3 provides additional material to help designing the LS=
A.
>>>>>> I would like to know whether authors are willing to pursue further i=
n this direction, which is to my mind a real corner stone, that would help =
everyone agree on a solution.
>>>>>> A first point could concern the Resource Block Information (reminder=
:<ResourceBlockInfo>    ::=3D ([<ResourceSet>]<InputConstraints>    <Proces=
singCapabilities>    <OutputConstraints>):
>>>>>>      We all agree that these information are static, that we should =
not replicate this TLV whatever the number not the layout of OEO boards of =
a given type.
>>>>>> Then, we could dedicate a specific independant flooding entity. This=
 would be defined once for all, and that would not leave room to different =
interpretations.
>>>>>> What about this first point?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> YOUNG>>    If I understand you correctly, what you are saying is sin=
ce the Resource Block Info sub-TLV is very static in nature, advertisement =
of this sub-TLV should be treated differently from the rest of static-TLVs =
(which may change over time). Is this what you are saying?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If my interpretation of your comment is correct,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - The current mechanism allows what you want: Please see the first p=
aragraph in Section 3.2
>>>>>>    "In the highly unlikely event that a WSON sub-TLV by itself would
>>>>>>    result in an LSA exceeding the MTU, all five WSON specific sub-TL=
Vs
>>>>>>    in this document provide mechanisms that allow them to be subdivi=
ded
>>>>>>    into smaller sub-TLVs that can be sent in separate OSPF TE LSAs."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> According to this clause, you can separate the Resource Block Info S=
ub-TLV as the sole entry defined in the Optical Node property TLV in a sepa=
rate TE LSA from the rest if you will. Nothing prevents this particular way=
 of packaging. (Isn't this what you meant "a specific independent flooding =
entity"?)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Please let me know if this explanation satisfies you. Thanks --- Y=
oung
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pierre
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>>>> De : ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] De la pa=
rt de Leeyoung Envoy=E9 : jeudi 15 septembre 2011 21:59 =C0 : ccamp@ietf.or=
g Objet : Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibilit=
y-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> After 05 version publication, Acee provided a number of valuable com=
ments and suggestions. This revision (06) reflects those changes. Please no=
te the following updates:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Change the title of the draft to "GMPLS OSPF Enhancement..." from =
"OSPF Enhancement..." to make sure the changes apply to the GMPLS OSPF rath=
er than the base OSPF.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Add specific OSPF procedures on how sub-TLVs are packaged per [RFC=
3630] and editorial change including avoiding "multiple instances of TE LSA=
" to "multiple TE LSAs".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your comments are always appreciated. Thanks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best Regards.
>>>>>> Young
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Beha=
lf Of internet-drafts@ietf.org
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 2:48 PM
>>>>>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
>>>>>> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
>>>>>> Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibil=
ity-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts d=
irectories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement=
 Plane Working Group of the IETF.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Title           : GMPLS OSPF Enhancement for Signal and Network E=
lement Compatibility for Wavelength Switched Optical Networks
>>>>>>    Author(s)       : Young Lee
>>>>>>                           Greg M. Bernstein
>>>>>>    Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf=
-06.txt
>>>>>>    Pages           : 14
>>>>>>    Date            : 2011-09-15
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    This document provides GMPLS OSPF routing enhancements to support
>>>>>>    signal compatibility constraints associated with WSON network
>>>>>>    elements. These routing enhancements are required in common optic=
al
>>>>>>    or hybrid electro-optical networks where not all of the optical
>>>>>>    signals in the network are compatible with all network elements
>>>>>>    participating in the network.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    This compatibility constraint model is applicable to common optic=
al
>>>>>>    or hybrid electro optical systems such as OEO switches, regenerat=
ors,
>>>>>>    and wavelength converters since such systems can be limited to
>>>>>>    processing only certain types of WSON signals.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-com=
patibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
>>>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-comp=
atibility-ospf-06.txt
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Andrea Zanardi
>>>> CREATE-NET
>>>> Engineering&  Fast Prototyping (ENGINE) Area
>>>> Senior Engineer
>>>> Via alla Cascata 56/D - 38123 Povo Trento (Italy)
>>>> e-mail: andrea.zanardi@create-net.org
>>>> Tel: (+39) 0461 408400 - interno/extension 1407
>>>> Mobile: (+39) 340 0011837
>>>> Fax: (+39) 0461 421157
>>>> Skype: zanardi_andrea
>>>> www.create-net.org
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity =
to
>>>> which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged
>>>> material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, o=
r
>>>> taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or
>>>> entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited according to =
the
>>>> Italian Law 196/2003 of the Legislature. If you received this in error=
,
>>>> please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer.
>>>>
>>>> Le informazioni contenute in questo messaggio di posta elettronica e n=
ei
>>>> file allegati sono da considerarsi strettamente riservate. Il loro uti=
lizzo
>>>> e' consentito esclusivamente al destinatario del messaggio, per le fin=
alita'
>>>> indicate nel messaggio stesso. Qualora riceveste questo messaggio senz=
a
>>>> esserne il destinatario, Vi preghiamo cortesemente di darcene notizia =
via
>>>> e-mail e di procedere alla cancellazione del messaggio stesso dal Vost=
ro
>>>> sistema. Trattenere il messaggio stesso, divulgarlo anche in parte,
>>>> distribuirlo ad altri soggetti, copiarlo, od utilizzarlo per finalita'
>>>> diverse, costituisce comportamento contrario ai principi dettati dal D=
. Lgs.
>>>> 196/2003.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> Andrea Zanardi
>> CREATE-NET
>> Engineering & Fast Prototyping (ENGINE) Area
>> Senior Engineer
>> Via alla Cascata 56/D - 38123 Povo Trento (Italy)
>> e-mail: andrea.zanardi@create-net.org
>> Tel: (+39) 0461 408400 - interno/extension 1407
>> Mobile: (+39) 340 0011837
>> Fax: (+39) 0461 421157
>> Skype: zanardi_andrea
>> www.create-net.org
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to
>> which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged
>> material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or
>> taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or
>> entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited according to th=
e
>> Italian Law 196/2003 of the Legislature. If you received this in error,
>> please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer.
>>
>> Le informazioni contenute in questo messaggio di posta elettronica e nei
>> file allegati sono da considerarsi strettamente riservate. Il loro utili=
zzo
>> e' consentito esclusivamente al destinatario del messaggio, per le final=
ita'
>> indicate nel messaggio stesso. Qualora riceveste questo messaggio senza
>> esserne il destinatario, Vi preghiamo cortesemente di darcene notizia vi=
a
>> e-mail e di procedere alla cancellazione del messaggio stesso dal Vostro
>> sistema. Trattenere il messaggio stesso, divulgarlo anche in parte,
>> distribuirlo ad altri soggetti, copiarlo, od utilizzarlo per finalita'
>> diverse, costituisce comportamento contrario ai principi dettati dal D. =
Lgs.
>> 196/2003.
>>
>


From leeyoung@huawei.com  Sun Oct 30 14:04:01 2011
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Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 21:03:52 +0000
From: Leeyoung <leeyoung@huawei.com>
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Hi,

The revision basically includes more clarifying text when dividing up the Optical Node TLV into a number of smaller TLVs. 
We have been exchanging a number of emails across Andrea, Pierre, Acee and myself on this issue. Please send your comment if you have any questions on the revision.
Thanks,

Young

-----Original Message-----
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf.org
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 3:41 PM
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-07.txt

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : GMPLS OSPF Enhancement for Signal and Network Element Compatibility for Wavelength Switched Optical Networks
	Author(s)       : Young Lee
                          Greg M. Bernstein
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-07.txt
	Pages           : 14
	Date            : 2011-10-30

   This document provides GMPLS OSPF routing enhancements to support
   signal compatibility constraints associated with WSON network
   elements. These routing enhancements are required in common optical
   or hybrid electro-optical networks where not all of the optical
   signals in the network are compatible with all network elements
   participating in the network.

   This compatibility constraint model is applicable to common optical
   or hybrid electro optical systems such as OEO switches,
   regenerators, and wavelength converters since such systems can be
   limited to processing only certain types of WSON signals.



A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-07.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signal-compatibility-ospf-07.txt
_______________________________________________
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane =
Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : Label Switched Path (LSP) Data Path Delay Metrics in Gen=
eralized MPLS/ MPLS-TE Networks
	Author(s)       : Weiqiang Sun
                          Guoying Zhang
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-dpm-04.txt
	Pages           : 34
	Date            : 2011-10-30

   When setting up a label switched path (LSP) in Generalized MPLS and
   MPLS/TE networks, the completion of the signaling process does not
   necessarily mean that the cross connection along the LSP have been
   programmed accordingly and in a timely manner.  Meanwhile, the
   completion of signaling process may be used by applications as
   indication that data path has become usable.  The existence of this
   delay and the possible failure of cross connection programming, if
   not properly treated, will result in data loss or even application
   failure.  Characterization of this performance can thus help
   designers to improve the application model and to build more robust
   applications.  This document defines a series of performance metrics
   to evaluate the availability of data path in the signaling process.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-dpm-04.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-dpm-04.txt

From sunwq@mit.edu  Sun Oct 30 18:28:21 2011
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From: Weiqiang Sun <sunwq@MIT.EDU>
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Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-dpm-04.txt
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Subject: [CCAMP] FW:  I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-dpm-04.txt
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All,

We have updated the draft <draft-ietf-ccamp-dpm>. The two changes are both
editorial:
1. We updated one reference recently published as RFC6383
2. We updated the affiliation of one of the authors.

Comments are always welcome.

Best regards,
Weiqiang

On 10/31/11 9:22 AM, "internet-drafts@ietf.org" <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
wrote:

>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>directories. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and
>Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.
>
>	Title           : Label Switched Path (LSP) Data Path Delay Metrics in
>Generalized MPLS/ MPLS-TE Networks
>	Author(s)       : Weiqiang Sun
>                          Guoying Zhang
>	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-dpm-04.txt
>	Pages           : 34
>	Date            : 2011-10-30
>
>   When setting up a label switched path (LSP) in Generalized MPLS and
>   MPLS/TE networks, the completion of the signaling process does not
>   necessarily mean that the cross connection along the LSP have been
>   programmed accordingly and in a timely manner.  Meanwhile, the
>   completion of signaling process may be used by applications as
>   indication that data path has become usable.  The existence of this
>   delay and the possible failure of cross connection programming, if
>   not properly treated, will result in data loss or even application
>   failure.  Characterization of this performance can thus help
>   designers to improve the application model and to build more robust
>   applications.  This document defines a series of performance metrics
>   to evaluate the availability of data path in the signaling process.
>
>
>A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-dpm-04.txt
>
>Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
>This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
>ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-dpm-04.txt
>_______________________________________________
>CCAMP mailing list
>CCAMP@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp



From Alan.Davey@metaswitch.com  Mon Oct 31 04:41:27 2011
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From: Alan Davey <Alan.Davey@metaswitch.com>
To: Aria - Adrian Farrel Personal <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Question on RFC6107,	Procedures for Dynamically Signaled Hierarchical Label Switched	Paths
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Question on RFC6107, Procedures for Dynamically Signaled Hierarchical Label Switched	Paths
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Hi Adrian

Thank you for your response, and for spotting another erratum in RFC6107.  =
I propose raising the following technical errata against the RFC, both in s=
ection 3.2.  Please let me know whether or not you agree.

1.  State that at most one Target IGP Identification TLV may appear in a si=
ngle LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID object.

Original text:
   The TLV has meaning only in a Path message.  It SHOULD NOT be
   included in the LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID object in a Resv message and
   MUST be ignored if found.

Corrected text:
   The TLV has meaning only in a Path message.  At most one TLV
   MAY appear in a single LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID object.

   The TLV SHOULD NOT be included in the LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID object=20
   in a Resv message and MUST be ignored if found.

2.  Section 3.2, change Resv message to Path message.

Original text:  =20
   If the P-flag in the Actions field in the LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID
   object in a Resv message is set (i.e., one) indicating that the LSP
   is not to be advertised as a link, this TLV SHOULD NOT be present and
   MUST be ignored if encountered.

Corrected text:
   If the P-flag in the Actions field in the LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID
   object in a Path message is set (i.e., one) indicating that the LSP
   is not to be advertised as a link, this TLV SHOULD NOT be present and
   MUST be ignored if encountered.

Regards
Alan Davey

-----Original Message-----
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of A=
drian Farrel
Sent: 28 October 2011 18:24
To: Alan Davey; ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Question on RFC6107, Procedures for Dynamically Signal=
ed Hierarchical Label Switched Paths

Hi Alan,

Nice to be made to read stuff because you come across typos. I think that
Section 3.2

   If the P-flag in the Actions field in the LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID
   object in a Resv message is set (i.e., one) indicating that the LSP
   is not to be advertised as a link, this TLV SHOULD NOT be present and
   MUST be ignored if encountered.

s/Resv/Path/   !

That merits an erratum if anyone can be bothered.

> I have a question on RFC6107; is it permitted to have more than one
> Target IGP Identification TLV in a single LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID object?
>
> I cannot find a definitive statement in the RFC as to whether or not mult=
iple=20
> Target IGP Identification TLVs are permitted in a single object.=A0

Agreed. No such statement found.

> However, I think that this should NOT be permitted.
>
> My thinking is as follows.
> - Section 3.4 states that "It is possible that an LSP will be used to off=
er
>   capacity and connectivity to multiple other networks.=A0 In this case,
>   multiple instances of the LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID object are
>   permitted in the same Path and Resv messages."
>- My reading of this is that if multiple Target IGP Identification TLVs
>   are required then they should each appear in a separate=20
>   LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID object.
>- However, if multiple Target IGP Identification TLVs are permitted
>   in a single LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID object then there are two
>   protocol constructs with the same meaning, which could lead to
>   interoperability problems.
>- Therefore RFC6107 should state that at most one Target IGP=20
>   Identification TLV may appear in a single LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID
>   object, but I cannot find any such statement.

i wouldn't object to imposing this limitation, but I don't see it as
particularly necessary: why would there be interop problems if both multipl=
e
TLVs and multiple objects are allowed? Conservative on what you send, liber=
al on
what you receive. Since the RFC does not (currently) prohibit either option=
,
there would be no reason for an implementation to not be able to receive ei=
ther.

I don't read "are permitted" to mean "required"

There would seem to be a (minor) saving of bits on the wire in the case tha=
t
multiple uses share the settings of the common part of the object. However,
since this is pretty unlikely:
1. The chance of multiple TLVs being present is small
2. The hardship of banning multiple TLVs is small

This could probably (just about) qualify for an erratum. Really it is a
technical change, not a typographical fix, but we might squeeze it in as a =
one
line change.

Cheers,
Adrian


_______________________________________________
CCAMP mailing list
CCAMP@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

From adrian@olddog.co.uk  Mon Oct 31 06:20:15 2011
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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "'Alan Davey'" <Alan.Davey@metaswitch.com>
References: <C2EE31C852049D499842B19FC01C0804165C87F6@ENFICSMBX1.datcon.co.uk> <038d01cc9596$5d429760$17c7c620$@olddog.co.uk> <C2EE31C852049D499842B19FC01C08042ACF97F6@ENFICSMBX1.datcon.co.uk>
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Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Question on RFC6107, Procedures for Dynamically Signaled Hierarchical Label Switched	Paths
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Looks fine, but I would like to hear agreement from the WG.

Thanks,
Adrian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alan Davey [mailto:Alan.Davey@metaswitch.com]
> Sent: 31 October 2011 11:41
> To: Adrian Farrel Personal
> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Question on RFC6107, Procedures for Dynamically =
Signaled
> Hierarchical Label Switched Paths
>=20
> Hi Adrian
>=20
> Thank you for your response, and for spotting another erratum in =
RFC6107.  I
> propose raising the following technical errata against the RFC, both =
in
section 3.2.
> Please let me know whether or not you agree.
>=20
> 1.  State that at most one Target IGP Identification TLV may appear in =
a
single
> LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID object.
>=20
> Original text:
>    The TLV has meaning only in a Path message.  It SHOULD NOT be
>    included in the LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID object in a Resv message =
and
>    MUST be ignored if found.
>=20
> Corrected text:
>    The TLV has meaning only in a Path message.  At most one TLV
>    MAY appear in a single LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID object.
>=20
>    The TLV SHOULD NOT be included in the LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID =
object
>    in a Resv message and MUST be ignored if found.
>=20
> 2.  Section 3.2, change Resv message to Path message.
>=20
> Original text:
>    If the P-flag in the Actions field in the LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID
>    object in a Resv message is set (i.e., one) indicating that the LSP
>    is not to be advertised as a link, this TLV SHOULD NOT be present =
and
>    MUST be ignored if encountered.
>=20
> Corrected text:
>    If the P-flag in the Actions field in the LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID
>    object in a Path message is set (i.e., one) indicating that the LSP
>    is not to be advertised as a link, this TLV SHOULD NOT be present =
and
>    MUST be ignored if encountered.
>=20
> Regards
> Alan Davey
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of
> Adrian Farrel
> Sent: 28 October 2011 18:24
> To: Alan Davey; ccamp@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Question on RFC6107, Procedures for Dynamically =
Signaled
> Hierarchical Label Switched Paths
>=20
> Hi Alan,
>=20
> Nice to be made to read stuff because you come across typos. I think =
that
> Section 3.2
>=20
>    If the P-flag in the Actions field in the LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID
>    object in a Resv message is set (i.e., one) indicating that the LSP
>    is not to be advertised as a link, this TLV SHOULD NOT be present =
and
>    MUST be ignored if encountered.
>=20
> s/Resv/Path/   !
>=20
> That merits an erratum if anyone can be bothered.
>=20
> > I have a question on RFC6107; is it permitted to have more than one
> > Target IGP Identification TLV in a single LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID =
object?
> >
> > I cannot find a definitive statement in the RFC as to whether or not
multiple
> > Target IGP Identification TLVs are permitted in a single object.
>=20
> Agreed. No such statement found.
>=20
> > However, I think that this should NOT be permitted.
> >
> > My thinking is as follows.
> > - Section 3.4 states that "It is possible that an LSP will be used =
to offer
> >   capacity and connectivity to multiple other networks.=A0 In this =
case,
> >   multiple instances of the LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID object are
> >   permitted in the same Path and Resv messages."
> >- My reading of this is that if multiple Target IGP Identification =
TLVs
> >   are required then they should each appear in a separate
> >   LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID object.
> >- However, if multiple Target IGP Identification TLVs are permitted
> >   in a single LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID object then there are two
> >   protocol constructs with the same meaning, which could lead to
> >   interoperability problems.
> >- Therefore RFC6107 should state that at most one Target IGP
> >   Identification TLV may appear in a single LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID
> >   object, but I cannot find any such statement.
>=20
> i wouldn't object to imposing this limitation, but I don't see it as
> particularly necessary: why would there be interop problems if both =
multiple
> TLVs and multiple objects are allowed? Conservative on what you send, =
liberal
on
> what you receive. Since the RFC does not (currently) prohibit either =
option,
> there would be no reason for an implementation to not be able to =
receive
either.
>=20
> I don't read "are permitted" to mean "required"
>=20
> There would seem to be a (minor) saving of bits on the wire in the =
case that
> multiple uses share the settings of the common part of the object. =
However,
> since this is pretty unlikely:
> 1. The chance of multiple TLVs being present is small
> 2. The hardship of banning multiple TLVs is small
>=20
> This could probably (just about) qualify for an erratum. Really it is =
a
> technical change, not a typographical fix, but we might squeeze it in =
as a one
> line change.
>=20
> Cheers,
> Adrian
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp


From ramon.casellas@cttc.es  Mon Oct 31 06:57:37 2011
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Question on RFC6107, Procedures for Dynamically Signaled Hierarchical Label Switched	Paths
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El 31/10/2011 14:20, Adrian Farrel escribi:
> Looks fine, but I would like to hear agreement from the WG.
>
> Thanks,
> Adrian
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Alan Davey [mailto:Alan.Davey@metaswitch.com]
>> Original text:
>>     The TLV has meaning only in a Path message.  It SHOULD NOT be
>>     included in the LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID object in a Resv message and
>>     MUST be ignored if found.
>>
>> Corrected text:
>>     The TLV has meaning only in a Path message.  At most one TLV
>>     MAY appear in a single LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID object.
>>
>>     The TLV SHOULD NOT be included in the LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID object
>>     in a Resv message and MUST be ignored if found.
Hi Adrian, Alan, all

I'm a bit confused about this part. If :
- several LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID are used in the Path message to 
announce the same link in different instances (say N), and
- a TLV is used in each LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID within such Path message 
(with the instance), and
- the TLVs SHOULD be suppressed in Resv,

do we end up with 1 or N identical LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID in the Resv 
(assuming no other TLVs)?

It seems that they could be coalesced  into 1, in order not to be in 
contradiction with section 3.4 ("Each instance MUST have a different IGP
    Instance Identifier", which could be understood to preclude 
identical copies. but probably I am missing something)

So either there are N instances with the TLV (which it shouldn't by the 
above text but must according to 3.4) or 1 without TLV?. I would say the 
latter, but I would like your comments

R.


----------------------------------
Section 3.4 quote

    It is possible that an LSP will be used to offer capacity and
    connectivity to multiple other networks.  In this case, multiple
    instances of the LSP_TUNNEL_INTERFACE_ID object are permitted in the
    same Path and Resv messages.  Each instance MUST have a different IGP
    Instance Identifier.

From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Mon Oct 31 08:38:34 2011
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Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-mpls-tp-oam-ext-07.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane =
Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : Configuration of Pro-Active Operations, Administration, =
and Maintenance (OAM) Functions for MPLS-based Transport Networks using RSV=
P-TE
	Author(s)       : Elisa Bellagamba
                          Loa Andersson
                          Pontus Skoldstrom
                          Dave Ward
                          Attila Takacs
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-mpls-tp-oam-ext-07.txt
	Pages           : 21
	Date            : 2011-10-31

   This specification describes the configuration of pro-active MPLS-TP
   Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) Functions for a
   given LSP using a set of TLVs that are carried by the RSVP-TE
   protocol.

   This document is a product of a joint Internet Engineering Task Force
   (IETF) / International Telecommunication Union Telecommunication
   Standardization Sector (ITU-T) effort to include an MPLS Transport
   Profile within the IETF MPLS and PWE3 architectures to support the
   capabilities and functionalities of a packet transport network.


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-07.txt

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Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-13.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane =
Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : Routing and Wavelength Assignment Information Encoding f=
or Wavelength Switched Optical Networks
	Author(s)       : Greg M. Bernstein
                          Young Lee
                          Dan Li
                          Wataru Imajuku
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-wson-encode-13.txt
	Pages           : 37
	Date            : 2011-10-31

   A wavelength switched optical network (WSON) requires that certain
   key information elements are made available to facilitate path
   computation and the establishment of label switching paths (LSPs).
   The information model described in &quot;Routing and Wavelength
   Assignment Information for Wavelength Switched Optical Networks&quot;
   shows what information is required at specific points in the WSON.
   Part of the WSON information model contains aspects that may be of
   general applicability to other technologies, while other parts are
   fairly specific to WSONs.

   This document provides efficient, protocol-agnostic encodings for
   the WSON specific information elements. It is intended that
   protocol-specific documents will reference this memo to describe how
   information is carried for specific uses. Such encodings can be used
   to extend GMPLS signaling and routing protocols. In addition these
   encodings could be used by other mechanisms to convey this same
   information to a path computation element (PCE).





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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane =
Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : Routing and Wavelength Assignment Information Model for =
Wavelength Switched Optical Networks
	Author(s)       : Young Lee
                          Greg M. Bernstein
                          Dan Li
                          Wataru Imajuku
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-rwa-info-13.txt
	Pages           : 27
	Date            : 2011-10-31

   This document provides a model of information needed by the routing
   and wavelength assignment (RWA) process in wavelength switched
   optical networks (WSONs).  The purpose of the information described
   in this model is to facilitate constrained lightpath computation in
   WSONs. This model takes into account compatibility constraints
   between WSON signal attributes and network elements but does not
   include constraints due to optical impairments. Aspects of this
   information that may be of use to other technologies utilizing a
   GMPLS control plane are discussed.




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