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X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes_smtp/zte_ltd(Release 8.5.3FP1 HF212|May 23, 2012) at 2012-12-03 09:03:58, Serialize complete at 2012-12-03 09:03:58
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Resolutions of comments on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-mpls-tp-oam-ext
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From Alan.Davey@metaswitch.com  Mon Dec  3 09:22:37 2012
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From: Alan Davey <Alan.Davey@metaswitch.com>
To: "draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01
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Subject: [CCAMP]  A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01
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Authors

I have a doubt about draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01, specifically=
 about the SRLG collection.  Could you please let me know what you think?

According to section 4.1, the collection of SRLG information in RROs for th=
e Resv is different to that for the Path.  This is unlike the existing proc=
essing of RROs, which are handled in the same way for the upstream and down=
stream directions (as defined in RFC3209 section 4.4.3).  Can you please ex=
plain why the collection of SRLGs must be different in the different direct=
ions?  My preference is that SRLG information collection in RROs is handled=
 in the same way as existing RRO processing.

Regards

Alan Davey


Network Technologies
Metaswitch Networks

alan.davey@metaswitch.com<mailto:alan.davey@metaswitch.com>
+44 (0) 20 8366 1177
network-technologies.metaswitch.com<http://network-technologies.metaswitch.=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Authors<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have a doubt about draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-c=
ollect-01, specifically about the SRLG collection.&nbsp; Could you please l=
et me know what you think?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">According to section 4.1, the collection of SRLG inf=
ormation in RROs for the Resv is different to that for the Path.&nbsp; This=
 is unlike the existing processing of RROs, which are handled in the same w=
ay for the upstream and downstream directions
 (as defined in RFC3209 section 4.4.3).&nbsp; Can you please explain why th=
e collection of SRLGs must be different in the different directions?&nbsp; =
My preference is that SRLG information collection in RROs is handled in the=
 same way as existing RRO processing.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Alan Davey<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
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<span style=3D"color:gray">&#43;44 (0) 20 8366 1177<br>
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From: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
To: Alan Davey <Alan.Davey@metaswitch.com>, "draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP]  A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01
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Alan-

There are use cases where SRLGs for forward direction may not be same as SR=
LGs for reverse direction. E.g., consider a use case where an associated no=
n-corouted tunnel is used as an FA; forward and reverse directions may foll=
ow different paths in the network. When such FA is used as a TE link for th=
e tunnel for which SRLG recording is requested, forward and reverse SRLG va=
lues would be different.

Thanks

Regards...Zafar

From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of A=
lan Davey
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2012 12:23 PM
To: draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org
Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01

Authors

I have a doubt about draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01, specifically=
 about the SRLG collection.  Could you please let me know what you think?

According to section 4.1, the collection of SRLG information in RROs for th=
e Resv is different to that for the Path.  This is unlike the existing proc=
essing of RROs, which are handled in the same way for the upstream and down=
stream directions (as defined in RFC3209 section 4.4.3).  Can you please ex=
plain why the collection of SRLGs must be different in the different direct=
ions?  My preference is that SRLG information collection in RROs is handled=
 in the same way as existing RRO processing.

Regards

Alan Davey


Network Technologies
Metaswitch Networks

alan.davey@metaswitch.com<mailto:alan.davey@metaswitch.com>
+44 (0) 20 8366 1177
network-technologies.metaswitch.com<http://network-technologies.metaswitch.=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Alan-
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">There are use cases wh=
ere SRLGs for forward direction may not be same as SRLGs for reverse direct=
ion. E.g., consider a use case where an associated non-corouted
 tunnel is used as an FA; forward and reverse directions may follow differe=
nt paths in the network. When such FA is used as a TE link for the tunnel f=
or which SRLG recording is requested, forward and reverse SRLG values would=
 be different.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Thanks<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Regards&#8230;Zafar<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
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4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> ccamp-bo=
unces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Alan Davey<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 03, 2012 12:23 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ccamp@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect=
-01<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Authors<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">I have a doubt about draft-ietf=
-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01, specifically about the SRLG collection.&nbs=
p; Could you please let me know what you think?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">According to section 4.1, the c=
ollection of SRLG information in RROs for the Resv is different to that for=
 the Path.&nbsp; This is unlike the existing processing of RROs, which are =
handled in the same way for the upstream
 and downstream directions (as defined in RFC3209 section 4.4.3).&nbsp; Can=
 you please explain why the collection of SRLGs must be different in the di=
fferent directions?&nbsp; My preference is that SRLG information collection=
 in RROs is handled in the same way as existing
 RRO processing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Alan Davey<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
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<b><span style=3D"color:navy">Metaswitch Networks<o:p></o:p></span></b></sp=
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From: "Gabriele Maria Galimberti (ggalimbe)" <ggalimbe@cisco.com>
To: Chris Bowers <cbowers@juniper.net>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] using RFC6205 encoding of wavelengths in draft-galikunze-ccamp-g-698-2-snmp-mib-01 and draft-dharinigert-ccamp-g-698-2-lmp-01
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] using RFC6205 encoding of wavelengths in draft-galikunze-ccamp-g-698-2-snmp-mib-01 and draft-dharinigert-ccamp-g-698-2-lmp-01
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Hi Chris,

Thanks for your comment and let us apologize for the late answer.

We agree to code the wavelengths as per RFC6205 definition.
We'll circulate the new draft version soon.

Best Regards,

Gabriele

[http://www.cisco.com/swa/i/logo.gif]


Gabriele Galimberti
Technical Leader
Cisco Photonics Srl

Via Philips, 12
20900 - Monza (MI)
Italy
www.cisco.com/global/IT/<http://www.cisco.com/global/IT/>

ggalimbe@cisco.com<mailto:ggalimbe@cisco.com>
Phone :+39 039 2091462
Mobile :+39 335 7481947
Fax :+39 039 2092049














From: Chris Bowers <cbowers@juniper.net<mailto:cbowers@juniper.net>>
Date: Thursday, November 8, 2012 5:16 PM
To: "ccamp@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>" <ccamp@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp@ie=
tf.org>>
Subject: [CCAMP] using RFC6205 encoding of wavelengths in draft-galikunze-c=
camp-g-698-2-snmp-mib-01 and draft-dharinigert-ccamp-g-698-2-lmp-01

Both draft-galikunze-ccamp-g-698-2-snmp-mib-0 and draft-dharinigert-ccamp-g=
-698-2-lmp-01 specify wavelengths in THz.   This would also require specify=
ing the floating-point representation for proper encoding.

Instead, I would suggest that these drafts use the wavelength encoding defi=
ned in RFC6205.  This will allow the absolute wavelength values to be encod=
ed as integer values for the encoded grid and channel spacing.  It also avo=
ids creating multiple wavelength encodings in documents produced by CCAMP.

Chris

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<div>
<div>
<div>Hi Chris,&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks for your comment and let us&nbsp;apologize&nbsp;for the late an=
swer.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We agree to code the wavelengths as per RFC6205 definition.</div>
<div>We'll circulate the new draft version soon.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best Regards,&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Gabriele</div>
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<b><span style=3D"font-size: 8.5pt; color: rgb(102, 102, 102); font-family:=
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ial, sans-serif; "><br>
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left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; ">
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ial, sans-serif; "><br>
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left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; ">
<font class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"#666666" face=3D"Arial,sans-serif=
" size=3D"2"><br>
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</td>
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</div>
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<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:b=
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 BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>Chris Bowers &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:cbowers@juniper.net">cbowers@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Thursday, November 8, 2012 5:=
16 PM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp@i=
etf.org">ccamp@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp@ietf.org">cca=
mp@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>[CCAMP] using RFC6205 enco=
ding of wavelengths in draft-galikunze-ccamp-g-698-2-snmp-mib-01 and draft-=
dharinigert-ccamp-g-698-2-lmp-01<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micro=
soft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" x=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Both draft-galikunze-ccamp-g-698-2-snmp-mib-0 and dr=
aft-dharinigert-ccamp-g-698-2-lmp-01 specify wavelengths in THz. &nbsp;&nbs=
p;This would also require specifying the floating-point representation for =
proper encoding.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Instead, I would suggest that these drafts use the w=
avelength encoding defined in RFC6205.&nbsp; This will allow the absolute w=
avelength values to be encoded as integer values for the encoded grid and c=
hannel spacing.&nbsp; It also avoids creating
 multiple wavelength encodings in documents produced by CCAMP.<o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Chris <o:p></o:p></p>
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From lberger@labn.net  Tue Dec  4 08:24:25 2012
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Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2012 11:23:56 -0500
From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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Subject: [CCAMP] IETF85-CCAMP Draft Minutes Available
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All,

The draft minutes from Atlanta are available at:
	http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/85/minutes/minutes-85-ccamp

Please review and comment to the list (or to the chairs) as soon as
possible if you'd like to see any corrections.

Much thanks to our WG secretaries, Daniele Ceccarelli and Dan King, for
the minute taking/prep. (The delay in posting is my fault, not theirs!)

Lou (and Deborah)



From lberger@labn.net  Tue Dec  4 12:32:17 2012
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Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2012 15:31:44 -0500
From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model-05.txt
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Authors,
	Please review any changes and how LC comments are addressed.

Thank you,
Lou

On 11/28/2012 2:36 AM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> 
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
>  This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.
> 
> 	Title           : Evaluation of existing GMPLS encoding against G.709v3 Optical Transport Networks (OTN)
> 	Author(s)       : Sergio Belotti
>                           Pietro Vittorio Grandi
>                           Daniele Ceccarelli
>                           Diego Caviglia
>                           Fatai Zhang
>                           Dan Li
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model-05.txt
> 	Pages           : 22
> 	Date            : 2012-11-27
> 
> Abstract:
>    The recent revision of ITU-T recommendation G.709 [G.709-2012] has
>    introduced new fixed and flexible Optical Data Unit (ODU) containers
>    in Optical Transport Networks (OTNs), enabling optimized support for
>    an increasingly abundant service mix.
> 
>    This document provides an evaluation of existing Generalized
>    Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) routing and signaling methods
>    against the G.709-2012 OTN networks.
> 
> 
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model
> 
> There's also a htmlized version available at:
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model-05
> 
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model-05
> 
> 
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> 
> 
> 
> 

From lberger@labn.net  Tue Dec  4 15:00:53 2012
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Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2012 18:00:27 -0500
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To: "Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich)" <cyril.margaria@nsn.com>,  dirk.schroetter@nutsix.de,  "Giovanni Martinelli (giomarti)" <giomarti@cisco.com>, Steve.Balls@metaswitch.com, Ben.Wright@metaswitch.com
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: [CCAMP] Regarding IPR on draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02
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Authors, Contributors, (CCAMP)

As part of the preparation for the poll on making this document a WG
document:

Are you aware of any IPR that applies to
draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02?

  Please state either:

  "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft"
  or
  "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft"

If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules
(see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details)?

   If yes to the above, please state either:

  "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules"
  or
  "No, the IPR has not been disclosed"

  If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think
  appropriate.

If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the
above by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are
aware of any relevant IPR.  This document will not advance to the next
stage until a response has been received from each author and listed
contributor.  NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS
MESSAGE'S TO LINES.

If you are on the CCAMP WG email list but are not listed as an author or
contributor, we remind you of your obligations under the IETF IPR rules
which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are aware of IPR of
others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from participating in any
contribution or discussion related to your undisclosed IPR.  For more
information, please see the RFCs listed above and
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty.

Thank you,
CCAMP WG Chairs

PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in your
response.


From lberger@labn.net  Tue Dec  4 15:00:59 2012
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Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2012 18:00:35 -0500
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To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>,  "George Swallow (swallow)" <swallow@cisco.com>, cfilsfil@cisco.com, mhartley@cisco.com, Kenji Kumaki <ke-kumaki@kddi.com>, Rudiger Kunze <ruediger.kunze@telekom.de>, CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
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Subject: [CCAMP] Regarding IPR on draft-ali-ccamp-te-metric-recording-03
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Authors, Contributors, (CCAMP)

As part of the preparation for the poll on making this document a WG
document:

Are you aware of any IPR that applies to
draft-ali-ccamp-te-metric-recording-03?

  Please state either:

  "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft"
  or
  "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft"

If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules
(see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details)?

   If yes to the above, please state either:

  "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules"
  or
  "No, the IPR has not been disclosed"

  If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think
  appropriate.

If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the
above by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are
aware of any relevant IPR.  This document will not advance to the next
stage until a response has been received from each author and listed
contributor.  NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS
MESSAGE'S TO LINES.

If you are on the CCAMP WG email list but are not listed as an author or
contributor, we remind you of your obligations under the IETF IPR rules
which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are aware of IPR of
others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from participating in any
contribution or discussion related to your undisclosed IPR.  For more
information, please see the RFCs listed above and
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty.

Thank you,
CCAMP WG Chairs

PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in your
response.


From lberger@labn.net  Tue Dec  4 15:01:10 2012
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Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2012 18:00:41 -0500
From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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To: Zafar Ali <zali@cisco.com>, George Swallow <swallow@cisco.com>,  Clarence Filsfils <cfilsfil@cisco.com>, Matt Hartley <mhartley@cisco.com>, Ori Gerstel <ogerstel@cisco.com>,  Gabriele Maria Galimberti <ggalimbe@cisco.com>, Kenji Kumaki <ke-kumaki@kddi.com>,  Rudiger Kunze <Ruediger.Kunze@telekom.de>, Julien Meuric <julien.meuric@orange.com>
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: [CCAMP] Regarding IPR on draft-ali-ccamp-xro-lsp-subobject-02
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Authors, Contributors, (CCAMP)

As part of the preparation for the poll on making this document a WG
document:

Are you aware of any IPR that applies to
draft-ali-ccamp-xro-lsp-subobject-02?

  Please state either:

  "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft"
  or
  "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft"

If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules
(see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details)?

   If yes to the above, please state either:

  "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules"
  or
  "No, the IPR has not been disclosed"

  If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think
  appropriate.

If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the
above by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are
aware of any relevant IPR.  This document will not advance to the next
stage until a response has been received from each author and listed
contributor.  NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS
MESSAGE'S TO LINES.

If you are on the CCAMP WG email list but are not listed as an author or
contributor, we remind you of your obligations under the IETF IPR rules
which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are aware of IPR of
others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from participating in any
contribution or discussion related to your undisclosed IPR.  For more
information, please see the RFCs listed above and
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty.

Thank you,
CCAMP WG Chairs

PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in your
response.


From lberger@labn.net  Tue Dec  4 21:56:16 2012
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Message-ID: <50BE6C59.9020003@labn.net>
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2012 16:34:17 -0500
From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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To: "draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709v3@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709v3@tools.ietf.org>,  CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709v3-05.txt
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Authors,
	Please review any changes and how LC comments are addressed.

Thank you,
Lou

On 11/30/2012 3:24 AM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> 
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
>  This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.
> 
> 	Title           : Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS) Signaling Extensions for the evolving G.709 Optical Transport Networks Control
> 	Author(s)       : Fatai Zhang
>                           Guoying Zhang
>                           Sergio Belotti
>                           Daniele Ceccarelli
>                           Khuzema Pithewan
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709v3-05.txt
> 	Pages           : 26
> 	Date            : 2012-11-30
> 
> Abstract:
>    ITU-T Recommendation G.709 [G709-2012] has introduced new Optical
>    channel Data Unit (ODU) containers (ODU0, ODU4, ODU2e and ODUflex)
>    and enhanced Optical Transport Networking (OTN) flexibility.
> 
>    This document updates RFC4328 to provide the extensions to the
>    Generalized Multi-Protocol Label Switching (GMPLS) signaling to
>    control the evolving OTN addressing ODUk multiplexing and new
>    features including ODU0, ODU4, ODU2e and ODUflex.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709v3
> 
> There's also a htmlized version available at:
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709v3-05
> 
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709v3-05
> 
> 
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> 
> 
> 
> 

From lberger@labn.net  Tue Dec  4 21:56:16 2012
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Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2012 16:34:12 -0500
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To: "draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3@tools.ietf.org>,  CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-04.txt
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Authors,
	Please review any changes and how LC comments are addressed.

Thank you,
Lou

On 11/28/2012 2:37 AM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> 
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
>  This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.
> 
> 	Title           : Traffic Engineering Extensions to OSPF for Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) Control of Evolving G.709 OTN Networks
> 	Author(s)       : Daniele Ceccarelli
>                           Diego Caviglia
>                           Fatai Zhang
>                           Dan Li
>                           Sergio Belotti
>                           Pietro Vittorio Grandi
>                           Rajan Rao
>                           Khuzema Pithewan
>                           John E Drake
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-04.txt
> 	Pages           : 33
> 	Date            : 2012-11-27
> 
> Abstract:
>    ITU-T Recommendation G.709 [G.709-2012] has introduced new fixed and
>    flexible Optical Data Unit (ODU) containers, enabling optimized
>    support for an increasingly abundant service mix.
> 
>    This document describes Open Shortest Path First - Traffic
>    Engineering (OSPF-TE) routing protocol extensions to support
>    Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) control of all currently defined ODU
>    containers, in support of both sub-lambda and lambda level routing
>    granularity.
> 
> 
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3
> 
> There's also a htmlized version available at:
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-04
> 
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-04
> 
> 
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> 
> 
> 
> 

From Ben.Wright@metaswitch.com  Wed Dec  5 01:29:38 2012
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From: Ben Wright <Ben.Wright@metaswitch.com>
To: labn - Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, NSN - Cyril Margaria <cyril.margaria@nsn.com>, "dirk.schroetter@nutsix.de" <dirk.schroetter@nutsix.de>, Cisco - Giovanni Martinelli <giomarti@cisco.com>, Steve Balls <Steve.Balls@metaswitch.com>
Thread-Topic: Regarding IPR on draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02
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Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 09:29:35 +0000
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Regarding IPR on draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02
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No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft.

-----Original Message-----
From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]=20
Sent: 04 December 2012 23:00
To: NSN - Cyril Margaria; dirk.schroetter@nutsix.de; Cisco - Giovanni Marti=
nelli; Steve Balls; Ben Wright
Cc: CCAMP
Subject: Regarding IPR on draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02

Authors, Contributors, (CCAMP)

As part of the preparation for the poll on making this document a WG
document:

Are you aware of any IPR that applies to draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute=
-ero-02?

  Please state either:

  "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft"
  or
  "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft"

If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see R=
FCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details)?

   If yes to the above, please state either:

  "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules"
  or
  "No, the IPR has not been disclosed"

  If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think
  appropriate.

If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the abo=
ve by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are aware o=
f any relevant IPR.  This document will not advance to the next stage until=
 a response has been received from each author and listed contributor.  NOT=
E: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS MESSAGE'S TO LINES.

If you are on the CCAMP WG email list but are not listed as an author or co=
ntributor, we remind you of your obligations under the IETF IPR rules which=
 encourages you to notify the IETF if you are aware of IPR of others on an =
IETF contribution, or to refrain from participating in any contribution or =
discussion related to your undisclosed IPR.  For more information, please s=
ee the RFCs listed above and http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wik=
i/IntellectualProperty.

Thank you,
CCAMP WG Chairs

PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in your respons=
e.


From Alan.Davey@metaswitch.com  Thu Dec  6 01:48:09 2012
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From: Alan Davey <Alan.Davey@metaswitch.com>
To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, "draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01
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Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2012 09:48:05 +0000
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01
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Hi Zafar

Thanks for your response.  However, I am considering only the SRLG collecti=
on for a single LSP.  Collection of SRLGs for associated bi-directional LSP=
s and how the collection may be presented to other layers is orthogonal to =
this discussion.

I still have a doubt about the collection of SRLG information in the Resv m=
essage.  Unless there is a reason not to, I think that the collection shoul=
d be handled in the same way in both the upstream and downstream directions=
.  Please let me know what you think of the following suggested change to t=
he draft.

I suggest replacing the following paragraph in section 4.1

   "Before the Resv message is sent to the upstream node, the tail node
   adds an SRLG sub-object to the RRO.  The collected SRLG information
   can be carried in the SRLG sub-object.  Therefore, during the
   forwarding of the Resv message in the upstream direction, the SRLG
   information is not needed to be collected hop by hop."

With the paragraph

"As in the procedures defined for the processing of RROs in Section 4.4.3 o=
f RFC 3209 [RFC3209], the processing of SRLG collection for Resv messages m=
irrors that of the Path messages.  That is, each intermediate node adds an =
SRLG sub-object to the RRO."

The benefits of this approach are that

-          the SRLG information received by the head and tail nodes is cons=
istent
-          no information is lost when the SRLG information is collected in=
 the Resv, it still includes a hop to SRLG mapping.

Regards

Alan Davey

Network Technologies
Metaswitch Networks

alan.davey@metaswitch.com<mailto:alan.davey@metaswitch.com>
+44 (0) 20 8366 1177
network-technologies.metaswitch.com<http://network-technologies.metaswitch.=
com/>


From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Z=
afar Ali (zali)
Sent: 03 December 2012 17:36
To: Alan Davey; draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org
Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01

Alan-

There are use cases where SRLGs for forward direction may not be same as SR=
LGs for reverse direction. E.g., consider a use case where an associated no=
n-corouted tunnel is used as an FA; forward and reverse directions may foll=
ow different paths in the network. When such FA is used as a TE link for th=
e tunnel for which SRLG recording is requested, forward and reverse SRLG va=
lues would be different.

Thanks

Regards...Zafar

From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:ccamp-b=
ounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alan Davey
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2012 12:23 PM
To: draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-=
ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org>
Cc: ccamp@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01

Authors

I have a doubt about draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01, specifically=
 about the SRLG collection.  Could you please let me know what you think?

According to section 4.1, the collection of SRLG information in RROs for th=
e Resv is different to that for the Path.  This is unlike the existing proc=
essing of RROs, which are handled in the same way for the upstream and down=
stream directions (as defined in RFC3209 section 4.4.3).  Can you please ex=
plain why the collection of SRLGs must be different in the different direct=
ions?  My preference is that SRLG information collection in RROs is handled=
 in the same way as existing RRO processing.

Regards

Alan Davey


Network Technologies
Metaswitch Networks

alan.davey@metaswitch.com<mailto:alan.davey@metaswitch.com>
+44 (0) 20 8366 1177
network-technologies.metaswitch.com<http://network-technologies.metaswitch.=
com/>


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366">Hi Zafar<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366">Thanks for your respon=
se.&nbsp; However, I am considering only the SRLG collection for a single L=
SP.&nbsp; Collection of SRLGs for associated bi-directional LSPs and how th=
e collection may be presented to other layers
 is orthogonal to this discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366">I still have a doubt a=
bout the collection of SRLG information in the Resv message.&nbsp; Unless t=
here is a reason not to, I think that the collection should be handled in t=
he same way in both the upstream and downstream
 directions.&nbsp; Please let me know what you think of the following sugge=
sted change to the draft.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366">I suggest replacing th=
e following paragraph in section 4.1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"color:#9=
93366">&nbsp;&nbsp; &#8220;Before the Resv message is sent to the upstream =
node, the tail node<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"color:#9=
93366">&nbsp;&nbsp; adds an SRLG sub-object to the RRO.&nbsp; The collected=
 SRLG information<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"color:#9=
93366">&nbsp;&nbsp; can be carried in the SRLG sub-object.&nbsp; Therefore,=
 during the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"color:#9=
93366">&nbsp;&nbsp; forwarding of the Resv message in the upstream directio=
n, the SRLG<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"color:#9=
93366">&nbsp;&nbsp; information is not needed to be collected hop by hop.&#=
8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366">With the paragraph<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"color:#9=
93366">&#8220;As in the procedures defined for the processing of RROs in Se=
ction 4.4.3 of RFC 3209 [RFC3209], the processing of SRLG collection for Re=
sv messages mirrors that of the Path messages.&nbsp;
 That is, each intermediate node adds an SRLG sub-object to the RRO.&#8220;=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366">The benefits of this a=
pproach are that<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-=
list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"color:#993366"><span style=3D"mso-list:=
Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"color:#993366">the SRLG infor=
mation received by the head and tail nodes is consistent<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-=
list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"color:#993366"><span style=3D"mso-list:=
Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"color:#993366">no information=
 is lost when the SRLG information is collected in the Resv, it still inclu=
des a hop to SRLG mapping.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366">Regards<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366">Alan Davey<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i><span style=3D"color:#993366">Network Technologie=
s</span></i><span style=3D"color:#993366"><br>
<b>Metaswitch Networks<o:p></o:p></b></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366"><a href=3D"mailto:alan=
.davey@metaswitch.com">alan.davey@metaswitch.com</a><br>
&#43;44 (0) 20 8366 1177<br>
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#993366"><a href=3D"http://netwo=
rk-technologies.metaswitch.com/">network-technologies.metaswitch.com</a><o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org=
]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 03 December 2012 17:36<br>
<b>To:</b> Alan Davey; draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org=
<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ccamp@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-col=
lect-01<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Alan-
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">There a=
re use cases where SRLGs for forward direction may not be same as SRLGs for=
 reverse direction. E.g., consider a use case where an associated
 non-corouted tunnel is used as an FA; forward and reverse directions may f=
ollow different paths in the network. When such FA is used as a TE link for=
 the tunnel for which SRLG recording is requested, forward and reverse SRLG=
 values would be different.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Thanks<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Regards=
&#8230;Zafar<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;">
<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Alan Davey<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 03, 2012 12:23 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ie=
tf.org">
draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:ccamp@ietf.org">ccamp@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect=
-01<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Authors<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have a doubt about draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-c=
ollect-01, specifically about the SRLG collection.&nbsp; Could you please l=
et me know what you think?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">According to section 4.1, the collection of SRLG inf=
ormation in RROs for the Resv is different to that for the Path.&nbsp; This=
 is unlike the existing processing of RROs, which are handled in the same w=
ay for the upstream and downstream directions
 (as defined in RFC3209 section 4.4.3).&nbsp; Can you please explain why th=
e collection of SRLGs must be different in the different directions?&nbsp; =
My preference is that SRLG information collection in RROs is handled in the=
 same way as existing RRO processing.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Alan Davey<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><i><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Network =
Technologies</span></i><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
<b><span style=3D"color:navy">Metaswitch Networks<o:p></o:p></span></b></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><a href=3D"mailto:alan=
.davey@metaswitch.com"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">alan.davey@metaswitch.com</span></a><span=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><br>
<span style=3D"color:gray">&#43;44 (0) 20 8366 1177<br>
</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"http://network-technolog=
ies.metaswitch.com/">network-technologies.metaswitch.com</a><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_C2EE31C852049D499842B19FC01C0804AF458B31ENFICSMBX1datco_--

From Steve.Balls@metaswitch.com  Thu Dec  6 02:11:17 2012
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From: Steve Balls <Steve.Balls@metaswitch.com>
To: labn - Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, NSN - Cyril Margaria <cyril.margaria@nsn.com>, "dirk.schroetter@nutsix.de" <dirk.schroetter@nutsix.de>, Cisco - Giovanni Martinelli <giomarti@cisco.com>, Ben Wright <Ben.Wright@metaswitch.com>
Thread-Topic: Regarding IPR on draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02
Thread-Index: AQHN0nMpB+3tLMjcOk692ELk9mHjGZgLjijQ
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No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft.
Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]=20
Sent: 04 December 2012 23:00
To: NSN - Cyril Margaria; dirk.schroetter@nutsix.de; Cisco - Giovanni Marti=
nelli; Steve Balls; Ben Wright
Cc: CCAMP
Subject: Regarding IPR on draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02

Authors, Contributors, (CCAMP)

As part of the preparation for the poll on making this document a WG
document:

Are you aware of any IPR that applies to draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute=
-ero-02?

  Please state either:

  "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft"
  or
  "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft"

If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see R=
FCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details)?

   If yes to the above, please state either:

  "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules"
  or
  "No, the IPR has not been disclosed"

  If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think
  appropriate.

If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the abo=
ve by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are aware o=
f any relevant IPR.  This document will not advance to the next stage until=
 a response has been received from each author and listed contributor.  NOT=
E: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS MESSAGE'S TO LINES.

If you are on the CCAMP WG email list but are not listed as an author or co=
ntributor, we remind you of your obligations under the IETF IPR rules which=
 encourages you to notify the IETF if you are aware of IPR of others on an =
IETF contribution, or to refrain from participating in any contribution or =
discussion related to your undisclosed IPR.  For more information, please s=
ee the RFCs listed above and http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wik=
i/IntellectualProperty.

Thank you,
CCAMP WG Chairs

PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in your respons=
e.


From cyril.margaria@nsn.com  Thu Dec  6 02:13:33 2012
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From: "Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich)" <cyril.margaria@nsn.com>
To: "ext Lou Berger" <lberger@labn.net>, <dirk.schroetter@nutsix.de>, "Giovanni Martinelli (giomarti)" <giomarti@cisco.com>, <Steve.Balls@metaswitch.com>, <Ben.Wright@metaswitch.com>
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No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft.


Best regards / Mit freundlichen Gr=FC=DFen
Cyril Margaria

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 12:00 AM
> To: Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich); dirk.schroetter@nutsix.de;
> Giovanni Martinelli (giomarti); Steve.Balls@metaswitch.com;
> Ben.Wright@metaswitch.com
> Cc: CCAMP
> Subject: Regarding IPR on draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02
>=20
> Authors, Contributors, (CCAMP)
>=20
> As part of the preparation for the poll on making this document a WG
> document:
>=20
> Are you aware of any IPR that applies to draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-
> attribute-ero-02?
>=20
>   Please state either:
>=20
>   "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft"
>   or
>   "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft"
>=20
> If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules
> (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details)?
>=20
>    If yes to the above, please state either:
>=20
>   "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules"
>   or
>   "No, the IPR has not been disclosed"
>=20
>   If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think
>   appropriate.
>=20
> If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer =
the
> above by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are
> aware of any relevant IPR.  This document will not advance to the next
> stage until a response has been received from each author and listed
> contributor.  NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS =
MESSAGE'S
> TO LINES.
>=20
> If you are on the CCAMP WG email list but are not listed as an author
> or contributor, we remind you of your obligations under the IETF IPR
> rules which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are aware of IPR
> of others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from participating in
> any contribution or discussion related to your undisclosed IPR.  For
> more information, please see the RFCs listed above and
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty.
>=20
> Thank you,
> CCAMP WG Chairs
>=20
> PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in your
> response.


From giomarti@cisco.com  Thu Dec  6 03:19:31 2012
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From: "Giovanni Martinelli (giomarti)" <giomarti@cisco.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
Thread-Topic: Regarding IPR on draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02
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No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft

Cheers
G

On Dec 5, 2012, at 24:00 , Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net> wrote:

> Authors, Contributors, (CCAMP)
>=20
> As part of the preparation for the poll on making this document a WG
> document:
>=20
> Are you aware of any IPR that applies to
> draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02?
>=20
>  Please state either:
>=20
>  "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft"
>  or
>  "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft"
>=20
> If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules
> (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details)?
>=20
>   If yes to the above, please state either:
>=20
>  "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules"
>  or
>  "No, the IPR has not been disclosed"
>=20
>  If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think
>  appropriate.
>=20
> If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the
> above by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are
> aware of any relevant IPR.  This document will not advance to the next
> stage until a response has been received from each author and listed
> contributor.  NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS
> MESSAGE'S TO LINES.
>=20
> If you are on the CCAMP WG email list but are not listed as an author or
> contributor, we remind you of your obligations under the IETF IPR rules
> which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are aware of IPR of
> others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from participating in any
> contribution or discussion related to your undisclosed IPR.  For more
> information, please see the RFCs listed above and
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty.
>=20
> Thank you,
> CCAMP WG Chairs
>=20
> PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in your
> response.
>=20


From ietf-ipr@ietf.org  Thu Dec  6 09:44:54 2012
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Subject: [CCAMP] IPR Disclosure: Cisco's Statement of IPR Related to	draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-10
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Dear Greg Bernstein, Young Lee, Dan Li, Wataru Imajuku:

 An IPR disclosure that pertains to your Internet-Draft entitled "General
Network Element Constraint Encoding for GMPLS Controlled Networks" (draft-i=
etf-
ccamp-general-constraint-encode) was submitted to the IETF Secretariat on
2012-12-05 and has been posted on the "IETF Page of Intellectual Property R=
ights
Disclosures" (https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/1926/). The title of the IPR
disclosure is "Cisco's Statement of IPR Related to draft-ietf-ccamp-general-
constraint-encode-10."");

The IETF Secretariat


From zhangfatai@huawei.com  Fri Dec  7 01:53:19 2012
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From: Fatai Zhang <zhangfatai@huawei.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709v3@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709v3@tools.ietf.org>
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From adrian@olddog.co.uk  Fri Dec  7 05:44:16 2012
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Subject: [CCAMP] FW: IPR Disclosure: Cisco's Statement of IPR Related to	draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-10
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Hi,

Anyone able to find this patent on line?
Searching by patent number is not giving me anything.

Thanks,
Adrian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: IETF Secretariat [mailto:ietf-ipr@ietf.org]
> Sent: 06 December 2012 17:45
> To: gregb@grotto-networking.com; ylee@huawei.com; danli@huawei.com;
> imajuku.wataru@lab.ntt.co.jp
> Cc: stbryant@cisco.com; adrian@olddog.co.uk; lberger@labn.net;
> dbrungard@att.com; ccamp@ietf.org; ipr-announce@ietf.org
> Subject: IPR Disclosure: Cisco's Statement of IPR Related to =
draft-ietf-ccamp-
> general-constraint-encode-10
>=20
>=20
> Dear Greg Bernstein, Young Lee, Dan Li, Wataru Imajuku:
>=20
>  An IPR disclosure that pertains to your Internet-Draft entitled =
"General
> Network Element Constraint Encoding for GMPLS Controlled Networks" =
(draft-
> ietf-
> ccamp-general-constraint-encode) was submitted to the IETF Secretariat =
on
> 2012-12-05 and has been posted on the "IETF Page of Intellectual =
Property Rights
> Disclosures" (https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/1926/). The title of =
the IPR
> disclosure is "Cisco's Statement of IPR Related to =
draft-ietf-ccamp-general-
> constraint-encode-10."");
>=20
> The IETF Secretariat


From lberger@labn.net  Fri Dec  7 06:23:06 2012
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Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2012 09:22:42 -0500
From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] FW: IPR Disclosure: Cisco's Statement of IPR Related to	draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-10
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Try the USPTO ;-)
http://appft1.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html

and enter the Patent Application Serial No. "13/150,333"

This usually works...

Lou

On 12/7/2012 8:44 AM, Adrian Farrel wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Anyone able to find this patent on line?
> Searching by patent number is not giving me anything.
> 
> Thanks,
> Adrian
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: IETF Secretariat [mailto:ietf-ipr@ietf.org]
>> Sent: 06 December 2012 17:45
>> To: gregb@grotto-networking.com; ylee@huawei.com; danli@huawei.com;
>> imajuku.wataru@lab.ntt.co.jp
>> Cc: stbryant@cisco.com; adrian@olddog.co.uk; lberger@labn.net;
>> dbrungard@att.com; ccamp@ietf.org; ipr-announce@ietf.org
>> Subject: IPR Disclosure: Cisco's Statement of IPR Related to draft-ietf-ccamp-
>> general-constraint-encode-10
>>
>>
>> Dear Greg Bernstein, Young Lee, Dan Li, Wataru Imajuku:
>>
>>  An IPR disclosure that pertains to your Internet-Draft entitled "General
>> Network Element Constraint Encoding for GMPLS Controlled Networks" (draft-
>> ietf-
>> ccamp-general-constraint-encode) was submitted to the IETF Secretariat on
>> 2012-12-05 and has been posted on the "IETF Page of Intellectual Property Rights
>> Disclosures" (https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/1926/). The title of the IPR
>> disclosure is "Cisco's Statement of IPR Related to draft-ietf-ccamp-general-
>> constraint-encode-10."");
>>
>> The IETF Secretariat
> 
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> 
> 
> 
> 

From lberger@labn.net  Fri Dec  7 12:49:01 2012
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Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2012 15:48:19 -0500
From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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Subject: [CCAMP] poll on making	draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a WG document
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All,

This is to start a two week poll on making
draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a ccamp working
group document. Please send mail to the list indicating "yes/support"
or "no/do not support".  If indicating no, please state your technical
reservations with the document.

The poll ends Friday December 21.

Much thanks,
Lou (and Deborah)

PS We're still waiting on one IPR statement.

From eric.gray@ericsson.com  Fri Dec  7 13:13:21 2012
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From: Eric Gray <eric.gray@ericsson.com>
To: "ccamp@ietf.org" <ccamp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] poll on making draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a	WG document
Thread-Index: AQHN1LxSK7+jK+HJxEmOnwi9cUiJTJgN1DNA
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2012 21:13:14 +0000
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] poll on making	draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a	WG document
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Not support

(At least not at this time)

There are a couple of technical issues:

1) I do not see any explanation of - or examples for - the use case where L=
SP attributes would apply to a=20
hop in an LSP and not to the entire LSP.  If attributes apply to an entire =
LSP, than there are existing ways
to do this. If it is possible to have an attribute that applies to a single=
 hop in the LSP, does this not raise
issues with "weak-links"?

2) I strongly suspect that this approach MUST rely on information present a=
t the signaling initiator that=20
would be "too much information" about nodes and links in the LSP-path.  Thi=
s information may change,
even between the time that the path is determined (by whatever means) and t=
he time that signaling is
initiated.

--
Eric

-----Original Message-----
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of L=
ou Berger
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 3:48 PM
To: ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: [CCAMP] poll on making draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a=
 WG document

All,

This is to start a two week poll on making
draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a ccamp working group document. P=
lease send mail to the list indicating "yes/support"
or "no/do not support".  If indicating no, please state your technical rese=
rvations with the document.

The poll ends Friday December 21.

Much thanks,
Lou (and Deborah)

PS We're still waiting on one IPR statement.
_______________________________________________
CCAMP mailing list
CCAMP@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

From leeyoung@huawei.com  Fri Dec  7 14:43:23 2012
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From: Leeyoung <leeyoung@huawei.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, "ccamp@ietf.org" <ccamp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] poll on making draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a	WG document
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Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2012 22:43:11 +0000
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Yes/support.

Young

-----Original Message-----
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of L=
ou Berger
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 2:48 PM
To: ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: [CCAMP] poll on making draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a=
 WG document

All,

This is to start a two week poll on making
draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a ccamp working
group document. Please send mail to the list indicating "yes/support"
or "no/do not support".  If indicating no, please state your technical
reservations with the document.

The poll ends Friday December 21.

Much thanks,
Lou (and Deborah)

PS We're still waiting on one IPR statement.
_______________________________________________
CCAMP mailing list
CCAMP@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

From ogondio@tid.es  Sun Dec  9 12:17:50 2012
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] poll on making	draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a	WG document
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Yes, support

Best Regards,

        =D3scar

-----Mensaje original-----
De: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] En nombre de Lou=
 Berger
Enviado el: viernes, 07 de diciembre de 2012 21:48
Para: ccamp@ietf.org
Asunto: [CCAMP] poll on making draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a =
WG document

All,

This is to start a two week poll on making
draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a ccamp working group document. P=
lease send mail to the list indicating "yes/support"
or "no/do not support".  If indicating no, please state your technical rese=
rvations with the document.

The poll ends Friday December 21.

Much thanks,
Lou (and Deborah)

PS We're still waiting on one IPR statement.
_______________________________________________
CCAMP mailing list
CCAMP@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

________________________________

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From mach.chen@huawei.com  Sun Dec  9 17:08:40 2012
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From: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, "ccamp@ietf.org" <ccamp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] poll on making draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a	WG document
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Yes/support.

I think this is a very useful draft, it provides the capability to enforce =
per-hop attribute.=20

I see there are at least two use cases, one is the "Control plane based Loc=
k Instruct and Loopback" (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dong-ccamp-rsvp-=
te-mpls-tp-li-lb-05 ), the other is the "Designation of PLRs in TE FRR"(htt=
p://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dong-ccamp-rsvp-te-plr-designation-00), both =
cases can use the per-hop attribute mechanisms defined in this draft.=20

Best regards,
Mach

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Lou Berger
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 4:48 AM
> To: ccamp@ietf.org
> Subject: [CCAMP] poll on making draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02=
 a
> WG document
>=20
> All,
>=20
> This is to start a two week poll on making
> draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a ccamp working
> group document. Please send mail to the list indicating "yes/support"
> or "no/do not support".  If indicating no, please state your technical
> reservations with the document.
>=20
> The poll ends Friday December 21.
>=20
> Much thanks,
> Lou (and Deborah)
>=20
> PS We're still waiting on one IPR statement.
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

From cyril.margaria@nsn.com  Sun Dec  9 23:55:59 2012
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From: "Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich)" <cyril.margaria@nsn.com>
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Yes/support=20


Best regards / Mit freundlichen Gr=FC=DFen
Cyril Margaria


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of ext Lou Berger
> Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 9:48 PM
> To: ccamp@ietf.org
> Subject: [CCAMP] poll on making =
draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-
> 02 aWG document
>=20
> All,
>=20
> This is to start a two week poll on making
> draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a ccamp working group
> document. Please send mail to the list indicating "yes/support"
> or "no/do not support".  If indicating no, please state your technical
> reservations with the document.
>=20
> The poll ends Friday December 21.
>=20
> Much thanks,
> Lou (and Deborah)
>=20
> PS We're still waiting on one IPR statement.
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

From nurit.sprecher@nsn.com  Sun Dec  9 23:58:23 2012
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] poll onmaking	draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 aWG document
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Yes/support=20


Best regards,
Nurit


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of ext Lou Berger
> Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 9:48 PM
> To: ccamp@ietf.org
> Subject: [CCAMP] poll on making
draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-
> 02 aWG document
>=20
> All,
>=20
> This is to start a two week poll on making
> draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a ccamp working group
> document. Please send mail to the list indicating "yes/support"
> or "no/do not support".  If indicating no, please state your technical
> reservations with the document.
>=20
> The poll ends Friday December 21.
>=20
> Much thanks,
> Lou (and Deborah)
>=20
> PS We're still waiting on one IPR statement.
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
_______________________________________________
CCAMP mailing list
CCAMP@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

From cyril.margaria@nsn.com  Mon Dec 10 00:39:40 2012
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From: "Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich)" <cyril.margaria@nsn.com>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] poll onmaking	draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a	WG document
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Hi,=20

This document was created because several documents are targeting LSP =
attributes to specific nodes, and a common solution based was seen =
usefull.
Several documents are targeting specific attributes at nodes
draft-dong-ccamp-rsvp-te-mpls-tp-li-lb-05
draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signaling-04
draft-ali-ccamp-rsvp-te-include-route-02
draft-margaria-ccamp-label-set-ero-00
draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-h-lsp-mln

The next revision of the document will detail this.

Regarding the second point, the node adding the ERO, most likely the =
initiator, would need to know this information, but I do not see why it =
would be too much information. In the different use cases presented by =
the documents above the information is either a policy/management input =
or a constraints that are described as the minimum required (WSON). The =
documents make a good case why this information needs to be present.

This information may change between the time its determined and the =
times its signaled, but this is a general signaling problem, the same =
applies for explicit labels, we are not trying to solve this problem =
here.

Do you think the document should recommend some limitation on the number =
of attributes to include, or include new mechanism to address the fact =
that the attributes cannot be applied anymore (new Error codes?).

Do this clarify your questions?


Best regards / Mit freundlichen Gr=FC=DFen
Cyril Margaria


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of ext Eric Gray
> Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 10:13 PM
> To: ccamp@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] poll onmaking draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-
> ero-02 a WG document
>=20
> Not support
>=20
> (At least not at this time)
>=20
> There are a couple of technical issues:
>=20
> 1) I do not see any explanation of - or examples for - the use case
> where LSP attributes would apply to a hop in an LSP and not to the
> entire LSP.  If attributes apply to an entire LSP, than there are
> existing ways to do this. If it is possible to have an attribute that
> applies to a single hop in the LSP, does this not raise issues with
> "weak-links"?
>=20
> 2) I strongly suspect that this approach MUST rely on information
> present at the signaling initiator that would be "too much =
information"
> about nodes and links in the LSP-path.  This information may change,
> even between the time that the path is determined (by whatever means)
> and the time that signaling is initiated.
>=20
> --
> Eric
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Lou Berger
> Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 3:48 PM
> To: ccamp@ietf.org
> Subject: [CCAMP] poll on making =
draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-
> 02 a WG document
>=20
> All,
>=20
> This is to start a two week poll on making
> draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a ccamp working group
> document. Please send mail to the list indicating "yes/support"
> or "no/do not support".  If indicating no, please state your technical
> reservations with the document.
>=20
> The poll ends Friday December 21.
>=20
> Much thanks,
> Lou (and Deborah)
>=20
> PS We're still waiting on one IPR statement.
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

From jie.dong@huawei.com  Mon Dec 10 01:03:40 2012
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From: Jie Dong <jie.dong@huawei.com>
To: "Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich)" <cyril.margaria@nsn.com>, ext Eric Gray <eric.gray@ericsson.com>, "ccamp@ietf.org" <ccamp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] poll onmaking draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02	a	WG document
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] poll onmaking	draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02	a	WG document
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Yes/support.

As Cyril and Mach said, there are several use cases which indicate requirem=
ents for this function. And I'd like to encourage people to also review the=
se use case drafts and give comments.

Best regards,
Jie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich)
> Sent: Monday, December 10, 2012 4:40 PM
> To: ext Eric Gray; ccamp@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] poll onmaking draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero=
-02
> a WG document
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> This document was created because several documents are targeting LSP
> attributes to specific nodes, and a common solution based was seen useful=
l.
> Several documents are targeting specific attributes at nodes
> draft-dong-ccamp-rsvp-te-mpls-tp-li-lb-05
> draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signaling-04
> draft-ali-ccamp-rsvp-te-include-route-02
> draft-margaria-ccamp-label-set-ero-00
> draft-zhang-ccamp-gmpls-h-lsp-mln
>=20
> The next revision of the document will detail this.
>=20
> Regarding the second point, the node adding the ERO, most likely the init=
iator,
> would need to know this information, but I do not see why it would be too
> much information. In the different use cases presented by the documents a=
bove
> the information is either a policy/management input or a constraints that=
 are
> described as the minimum required (WSON). The documents make a good case
> why this information needs to be present.
>=20
> This information may change between the time its determined and the times=
 its
> signaled, but this is a general signaling problem, the same applies for e=
xplicit
> labels, we are not trying to solve this problem here.
>=20
> Do you think the document should recommend some limitation on the number
> of attributes to include, or include new mechanism to address the fact th=
at the
> attributes cannot be applied anymore (new Error codes?).
>=20
> Do this clarify your questions?
>=20
>=20
> Best regards / Mit freundlichen Gr=FC=DFen
> Cyril Margaria
>=20
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> > Of ext Eric Gray
> > Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 10:13 PM
> > To: ccamp@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [CCAMP] poll onmaking draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-
> > ero-02 a WG document
> >
> > Not support
> >
> > (At least not at this time)
> >
> > There are a couple of technical issues:
> >
> > 1) I do not see any explanation of - or examples for - the use case
> > where LSP attributes would apply to a hop in an LSP and not to the
> > entire LSP.  If attributes apply to an entire LSP, than there are
> > existing ways to do this. If it is possible to have an attribute that
> > applies to a single hop in the LSP, does this not raise issues with
> > "weak-links"?
> >
> > 2) I strongly suspect that this approach MUST rely on information
> > present at the signaling initiator that would be "too much information"
> > about nodes and links in the LSP-path.  This information may change,
> > even between the time that the path is determined (by whatever means)
> > and the time that signaling is initiated.
> >
> > --
> > Eric
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> > Of Lou Berger
> > Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 3:48 PM
> > To: ccamp@ietf.org
> > Subject: [CCAMP] poll on making draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-
> > 02 a WG document
> >
> > All,
> >
> > This is to start a two week poll on making
> > draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a ccamp working group
> > document. Please send mail to the list indicating "yes/support"
> > or "no/do not support".  If indicating no, please state your technical
> > reservations with the document.
> >
> > The poll ends Friday December 21.
> >
> > Much thanks,
> > Lou (and Deborah)
> >
> > PS We're still waiting on one IPR statement.
> > _______________________________________________
> > CCAMP mailing list
> > CCAMP@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> > _______________________________________________
> > CCAMP mailing list
> > CCAMP@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

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Yes/support

thanks

R.


From Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com  Mon Dec 10 01:29:52 2012
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From: Jonathan Hardwick <Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com>
To: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] poll on making draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a	WG document
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Yes/support.

-----Original Message-----
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of L=
ou Berger
Sent: 07 December 2012 20:48
To: ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: [CCAMP] poll on making draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a=
 WG document

All,

This is to start a two week poll on making
draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a ccamp working
group document. Please send mail to the list indicating "yes/support"
or "no/do not support".  If indicating no, please state your technical
reservations with the document.

The poll ends Friday December 21.

Much thanks,
Lou (and Deborah)

PS We're still waiting on one IPR statement.
_______________________________________________
CCAMP mailing list
CCAMP@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

From Steve.Balls@metaswitch.com  Mon Dec 10 02:20:54 2012
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Yes/support.

-----Original Message-----
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of L=
ou Berger
Sent: 07 December 2012 20:48
To: ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: [CCAMP] poll on making draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a=
 WG document

All,

This is to start a two week poll on making
draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a ccamp working group document. P=
lease send mail to the list indicating "yes/support"
or "no/do not support".  If indicating no, please state your technical rese=
rvations with the document.

The poll ends Friday December 21.

Much thanks,
Lou (and Deborah)

PS We're still waiting on one IPR statement.
_______________________________________________
CCAMP mailing list
CCAMP@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] poll on making draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a WG document
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--047d7b621ef0fd5b2304d07cf028
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Yes / Support.

Dhruv


On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 2:18 AM, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net> wrote:

> All,
>
> This is to start a two week poll on making
> draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a ccamp working
> group document. Please send mail to the list indicating "yes/support"
> or "no/do not support".  If indicating no, please state your technical
> reservations with the document.
>
> The poll ends Friday December 21.
>
> Much thanks,
> Lou (and Deborah)
>
> PS We're still waiting on one IPR statement.
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>

--047d7b621ef0fd5b2304d07cf028
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Yes / Support.=A0<div><br></div><div>Dhruv</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 2:18 AM, Lou Berg=
er <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net" target=3D"_bla=
nk">lberger@labn.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">All,<br>
<br>
This is to start a two week poll on making<br>
draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a ccamp working<br>
group document. Please send mail to the list indicating &quot;yes/support&q=
uot;<br>
or &quot;no/do not support&quot;. =A0If indicating no, please state your te=
chnical<br>
reservations with the document.<br>
<br>
The poll ends Friday December 21.<br>
<br>
Much thanks,<br>
Lou (and Deborah)<br>
<br>
PS We&#39;re still waiting on one IPR statement.<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
CCAMP mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org">CCAMP@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--047d7b621ef0fd5b2304d07cf028--

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From: "Gabriele Maria Galimberti (ggalimbe)" <ggalimbe@cisco.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, "ccamp@ietf.org" <ccamp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] poll on making draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a WG document
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Yes, I support.

Regards,=20

Gabriele



Gabriele Galimberti
Technical Leader
Cisco Photonics Srl


Via Philips, 12
20900 - Monza (MI)
Italy
www.cisco.com/global/IT/ <http://www.cisco.com/global/IT/>

ggalimbe@cisco.com
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Mobile :+39 335 7481947
Fax :+39 039 2092049
















On 12/7/12 9:48 PM, "Lou Berger" <lberger@labn.net> wrote:

>All,
>
>This is to start a two week poll on making
>draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a ccamp working
>group document. Please send mail to the list indicating "yes/support"
>or "no/do not support".  If indicating no, please state your technical
>reservations with the document.
>
>The poll ends Friday December 21.
>
>Much thanks,
>Lou (and Deborah)
>
>PS We're still waiting on one IPR statement.
>_______________________________________________
>CCAMP mailing list
>CCAMP@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp


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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Eric Gray <eric.gray@ericsson.com>, "ccamp@ietf.org" <ccamp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] poll on	making draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a	WG document
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] poll on	making	draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a	WG document
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Hi,

I agree with Eric and think this appears to be a solution looking for a pro=
blem.=20

Irrespectively Yours,

John


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Eric Gray
> Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 1:13 PM
> To: ccamp@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] poll on making draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-
> ero-02 a WG document
>=20
> Not support
>=20
> (At least not at this time)
>=20
> There are a couple of technical issues:
>=20
> 1) I do not see any explanation of - or examples for - the use case
> where LSP attributes would apply to a hop in an LSP and not to the
> entire LSP.  If attributes apply to an entire LSP, than there are
> existing ways to do this. If it is possible to have an attribute that
> applies to a single hop in the LSP, does this not raise issues with
> "weak-links"?
>=20
> 2) I strongly suspect that this approach MUST rely on information
> present at the signaling initiator that would be "too much information"
> about nodes and links in the LSP-path.  This information may change,
> even between the time that the path is determined (by whatever means)
> and the time that signaling is initiated.
>=20
> --
> Eric
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Lou Berger
> Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 3:48 PM
> To: ccamp@ietf.org
> Subject: [CCAMP] poll on making draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-
> 02 a WG document
>=20
> All,
>=20
> This is to start a two week poll on making
> draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a ccamp working group
> document. Please send mail to the list indicating "yes/support"
> or "no/do not support".  If indicating no, please state your technical
> reservations with the document.
>=20
> The poll ends Friday December 21.
>=20
> Much thanks,
> Lou (and Deborah)
>=20
> PS We're still waiting on one IPR statement.
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp



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Subject: [CCAMP] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-07.txt
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--NextPart

A new Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.

    Title         : Link Management Protocol Behavior Negotiation and Configuration Modifications
    Author(s)     : D. Li, et al
    Filename      : draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation
    Pages         : 11 
    Date          : Dec. 10, 2012 
    
   The Link Management Protocol (LMP) is used to coordinate the 
   properties, use, and faults of data links in Generalized 
   Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) networks. This document 
   defines an extension to LMP to negotiate capabilities and indicate 
   support for LMP extensions. The defined extension is compatible 
   with non-supporting implementations. 




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From adrian@olddog.co.uk  Mon Dec 10 15:20:12 2012
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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "'Lou Berger'" <lberger@labn.net>, <ccamp@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 23:20:08 -0000
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] poll on making	draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a WG document
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<very definitely speaking as an individual and not to be taken in any way as AD
input!>

When we defined the LSP attribute object, we deliberately did not include this
function. Our thinking was that we were defining attributes of the LSP and that
this function is defining behavior of specific nodes. Attributes of an LSP can
be classed as behavior of *all* nodes on the LSP, or behavior of the end points
of the LSP.

The two example use cases supplied by Mach in his email
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dong-ccamp-rsvp-te-mpls-tp-li-lb-05 and
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dong-ccamp-rsvp-te-plr-designation-00) are
helpful for understanding the intention of the work, but seem to support my
understanding of the purpose.

If the authors have a different intention (i.e., not targeting instructions at a
specific node on the LSP) then it would be helpful if they spoke up.

Otherwise (and assuming that this function is actually needed!) I think it would
be helpful to reclass this as a normal subobject of a normal ERO. This would
allow the ERO to pass through nodes that do not support the new subobject
without having to define a new top-level object that will not be understood and
without complicating the ERO processing further. Obviously, returning the fact
that the new subobject was processed will require a new RRO subobject.

I do not much care whether this change is made before or after adoption as a WG
draft, but I do believe it should be discussed at some point, and my current
view is that the change should be made at some point.

I think adoption probably hinges on whether the WG believes that there is a need
to target commands at specific nodes on the LSP.

Cheers,
Adrian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Lou Berger
> Sent: 07 December 2012 20:48
> To: ccamp@ietf.org
> Subject: [CCAMP] poll on making draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a
> WG document
> 
> All,
> 
> This is to start a two week poll on making
> draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a ccamp working
> group document. Please send mail to the list indicating "yes/support"
> or "no/do not support".  If indicating no, please state your technical
> reservations with the document.
> 
> The poll ends Friday December 21.
> 
> Much thanks,
> Lou (and Deborah)
> 
> PS We're still waiting on one IPR statement.
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp


From adrian@olddog.co.uk  Mon Dec 10 15:22:53 2012
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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "'Lou Berger'" <lberger@labn.net>
References: <20121206174452.1459.5174.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <023201cdd480$ed60aa10$c821fe30$@olddog.co.uk> <50C1FBB2.9080705@labn.net>
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Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] FW: IPR Disclosure: Cisco's Statement of IPR Related to	draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-10
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And (surprise) this is why I asked.

"No application publications have matched your query "

But I found it by selective input into the search fields (it appears to be a
dumb match tool).

People might like to look at:

http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fneta
html%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PG01&s1=150333.APN.&OS=APN/
150333&RS=APN/150333

Adrian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
> Sent: 07 December 2012 14:23
> To: adrian@olddog.co.uk
> Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] FW: IPR Disclosure: Cisco's Statement of IPR Related to
> draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-10
> 
> Try the USPTO ;-)
> http://appft1.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html
> 
> and enter the Patent Application Serial No. "13/150,333"
> 
> This usually works...
> 
> Lou
> 
> On 12/7/2012 8:44 AM, Adrian Farrel wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Anyone able to find this patent on line?
> > Searching by patent number is not giving me anything.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Adrian
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: IETF Secretariat [mailto:ietf-ipr@ietf.org]
> >> Sent: 06 December 2012 17:45
> >> To: gregb@grotto-networking.com; ylee@huawei.com; danli@huawei.com;
> >> imajuku.wataru@lab.ntt.co.jp
> >> Cc: stbryant@cisco.com; adrian@olddog.co.uk; lberger@labn.net;
> >> dbrungard@att.com; ccamp@ietf.org; ipr-announce@ietf.org
> >> Subject: IPR Disclosure: Cisco's Statement of IPR Related to
draft-ietf-ccamp-
> >> general-constraint-encode-10
> >>
> >>
> >> Dear Greg Bernstein, Young Lee, Dan Li, Wataru Imajuku:
> >>
> >>  An IPR disclosure that pertains to your Internet-Draft entitled "General
> >> Network Element Constraint Encoding for GMPLS Controlled Networks"
> (draft-
> >> ietf-
> >> ccamp-general-constraint-encode) was submitted to the IETF Secretariat on
> >> 2012-12-05 and has been posted on the "IETF Page of Intellectual Property
> Rights
> >> Disclosures" (https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/1926/). The title of the IPR
> >> disclosure is "Cisco's Statement of IPR Related to
draft-ietf-ccamp-general-
> >> constraint-encode-10."");
> >>
> >> The IETF Secretariat
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > CCAMP mailing list
> > CCAMP@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> >
> >
> >
> >


From cyril.margaria@nsn.com  Tue Dec 11 00:40:40 2012
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From: "Margaria, Cyril (NSN - DE/Munich)" <cyril.margaria@nsn.com>
To: <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "Lou Berger" <lberger@labn.net>, <ccamp@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] poll onmaking	draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a WG document
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Hi,=20

Thanks for your input, Please see inline.

Best regards / Mit freundlichen Gr=FC=DFen
Cyril Margaria


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of ext Adrian Farrel
> Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2012 12:20 AM
> To: 'Lou Berger'; ccamp@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] poll onmaking draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-
> ero-02 a WG document
>=20
> <very definitely speaking as an individual and not to be taken in any
> way as AD input!>
>=20
> When we defined the LSP attribute object, we deliberately did not
> include this function. Our thinking was that we were defining
> attributes of the LSP and that this function is defining behavior of
> specific nodes. Attributes of an LSP can be classed as behavior of
> *all* nodes on the LSP, or behavior of the end points of the LSP.
>=20
> The two example use cases supplied by Mach in his email
> (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dong-ccamp-rsvp-te-mpls-tp-li-lb-05
> and
> =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dong-ccamp-rsvp-te-plr-designation-00)
> are helpful for understanding the intention of the work, but seem to
> support my understanding of the purpose.
>=20
> If the authors have a different intention (i.e., not targeting
> instructions at a specific node on the LSP) then it would be helpful =
if
> they spoke up.

This is our intention to target instruction at specific node, in =
addition=20
this mechanism is also useful for draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-signaling.


> Otherwise (and assuming that this function is actually needed!) I =
think
> it would be helpful to reclass this as a normal subobject of a normal
> ERO. This would allow the ERO to pass through nodes that do not =
support
> the new subobject without having to define a new top-level object that
> will not be understood and without complicating the ERO processing
> further. Obviously, returning the fact that the new subobject was
> processed will require a new RRO subobject.

This was the feedback of the last Meeting, we agree on this mechanism =
and=20
it will be included in the next revision (pre or post WG adoption, this =
was BTW in -00).
We will take into account the feedback of the processing in the RRO.


> I do not much care whether this change is made before or after =
adoption
> as a WG draft, but I do believe it should be discussed at some point,
> and my current view is that the change should be made at some point.
>=20
> I think adoption probably hinges on whether the WG believes that there
> is a need to target commands at specific nodes on the LSP.
>=20
Thanks a lot for your input.

> Cheers,
> Adrian
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf
> > Of Lou Berger
> > Sent: 07 December 2012 20:48
> > To: ccamp@ietf.org
> > Subject: [CCAMP] poll on making
> > draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a WG document
> >
> > All,
> >
> > This is to start a two week poll on making
> > draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a ccamp working group
> > document. Please send mail to the list indicating "yes/support"
> > or "no/do not support".  If indicating no, please state your
> technical
> > reservations with the document.
> >
> > The poll ends Friday December 21.
> >
> > Much thanks,
> > Lou (and Deborah)
> >
> > PS We're still waiting on one IPR statement.
> > _______________________________________________
> > CCAMP mailing list
> > CCAMP@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

From julien.meuric@orange.com  Tue Dec 11 02:16:16 2012
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From: Julien Meuric <julien.meuric@orange.com>
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Cc: Clarence Filsfils <cfilsfil@cisco.com>, CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>, Ori Gerstel <ogerstel@cisco.com>, Rudiger Kunze <Ruediger.Kunze@telekom.de>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Regarding IPR on draft-ali-ccamp-xro-lsp-subobject-02
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Hi Lou.

No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft.

Regards,

Julien


Le 05/12/2012 00:00, Lou Berger a écrit :
> Authors, Contributors, (CCAMP)
 >
 > As part of the preparation for the poll on making this document a WG
 > document:
 >
 > Are you aware of any IPR that applies to
 > draft-ali-ccamp-xro-lsp-subobject-02?
 >
 > Please state either:
 >
 > "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft" or "Yes,
 > I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft"
 >
 > If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules
 > (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details)?
 >
 > If yes to the above, please state either:
 >
 > "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules"
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 >
 > PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in your
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From zali@cisco.com  Tue Dec 11 07:50:42 2012
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From: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
To: Alan Davey <Alan.Davey@metaswitch.com>, "draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01
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Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 15:50:26 +0000
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01
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Hi Alan:

Please see in-line.

Thanks

Regards...Zafar

From: Alan Davey [mailto:Alan.Davey@metaswitch.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2012 4:48 AM
To: Zafar Ali (zali); draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org
Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01

Hi Zafar

Thanks for your response.  However, I am considering only the SRLG collecti=
on for a single LSP.  Collection of SRLGs for associated bi-directional LSP=
s and how the collection may be presented to other layers is orthogonal to =
this discussion.

No it is not orthogonal to this discussion. It is very much related. Please=
 consider a bi-directional non-corouted  TE link is used as an FA/ RA for a=
n LSP who's SRLG info is being recording. So we cannot assume forward and r=
everse SRLGs are *always* the same - and why assume when we don't have to m=
ake such assumption.

I still have a doubt about the collection of SRLG information in the Resv m=
essage.  Unless there is a reason not to, I think that the collection shoul=
d be handled in the same way in both the upstream and downstream directions=
.  Please let me know what you think of the following suggested change to t=
he draft.

I suggest replacing the following paragraph in section 4.1

   "Before the Resv message is sent to the upstream node, the tail node
   adds an SRLG sub-object to the RRO.  The collected SRLG information
   can be carried in the SRLG sub-object.  Therefore, during the
   forwarding of the Resv message in the upstream direction, the SRLG
   information is not needed to be collected hop by hop."

With the paragraph

"As in the procedures defined for the processing of RROs in Section 4.4.3 o=
f RFC 3209 [RFC3209], the processing of SRLG collection for Resv messages m=
irrors that of the Path messages.  That is, each intermediate node adds an =
SRLG sub-object to the RRO."

My point is that we should NOT mirror SRLG values from Path RRP to Resv RRO=
. We should just record SRLG values for the reverse direction of the link i=
n Resv RRO. Similarly, SRLGs of forward direction on the link in Path RRO. =
The collection should happen on hop-by-hop basis for both path and resv RRO=
.

The benefits of this approach are that

-          the SRLG information received by the head and tail nodes is cons=
istent
-          no information is lost when the SRLG information is collected in=
 the Resv, it still includes a hop to SRLG mapping.

I agree that the collection should happen on hop-by-hop basis for both path=
 and resv RRO.

oatetwork Technologies
Metaswitch Networks

alan.davey@metaswitch.com<mailto:alan.davey@metaswitch.com>
+44 (0) 20 8366 1177
network-technologies.metaswitch.com<http://network-technologies.metaswitch.=
com/>


From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:ccamp-b=
ounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Zafar Ali (zali)
Sent: 03 December 2012 17:36
To: Alan Davey; draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org<mailto=
:draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org>
Cc: ccamp@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01

Alan-

There are use cases where SRLGs for forward direction may not be same as SR=
LGs for reverse direction. E.g., consider a use case where an associated no=
n-corouted tunnel is used as an FA; forward and reverse directions may foll=
ow different paths in the network. When such FA is used as a TE link for th=
e tunnel for which SRLG recording is requested, forward and reverse SRLG va=
lues would be different.

Thanks

Regards...Zafar

From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:ccamp-b=
ounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alan Davey
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2012 12:23 PM
To: draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-=
ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org>
Cc: ccamp@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01

Authors

I have a doubt about draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01, specifically=
 about the SRLG collection.  Could you please let me know what you think?

According to section 4.1, the collection of SRLG information in RROs for th=
e Resv is different to that for the Path.  This is unlike the existing proc=
essing of RROs, which are handled in the same way for the upstream and down=
stream directions (as defined in RFC3209 section 4.4.3).  Can you please ex=
plain why the collection of SRLGs must be different in the different direct=
ions?  My preference is that SRLG information collection in RROs is handled=
 in the same way as existing RRO processing.

Regards

Alan Davey


Network Technologies
Metaswitch Networks

alan.davey@metaswitch.com<mailto:alan.davey@metaswitch.com>
+44 (0) 20 8366 1177
network-technologies.metaswitch.com<http://network-technologies.metaswitch.=
com/>


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300">Hi Alan:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300">Please see in-line.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#003300">Thanks<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#003300"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#003300">Regards&#8230;Zafar<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Alan Dav=
ey [mailto:Alan.Davey@metaswitch.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 06, 2012 4:48 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Zafar Ali (zali); draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ie=
tf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ccamp@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-col=
lect-01<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">Hi Zafa=
r<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">Thanks =
for your response.&nbsp; However, I am considering only the SRLG collection=
 for a single LSP.&nbsp; Collection of SRLGs for associated bi-directional =
LSPs and how the collection may be presented to
 other layers is orthogonal to this discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#003300"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300">No it i=
s not orthogonal to this discussion. It is very much related. Please consid=
er a bi-directional non-corouted &nbsp;TE link is used as an FA/
 RA for an LSP who&#8217;s SRLG info is being recording. So we cannot assum=
e forward and reverse SRLGs are *<b>always</b>* the same &#8211; and why as=
sume when we don&#8217;t have to make such assumption. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">I still=
 have a doubt about the collection of SRLG information in the Resv message.=
&nbsp; Unless there is a reason not to, I think that the collection should =
be handled in the same way in both the upstream
 and downstream directions.&nbsp; Please let me know what you think of the =
following suggested change to the draft.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">I sugge=
st replacing the following paragraph in section 4.1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" styl=
e=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;&nbsp; &#8220;Before the Resv message is sent to =
the upstream node, the tail node<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" styl=
e=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;&nbsp; adds an SRLG sub-object to the RRO.&nbsp; =
The collected SRLG information<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" styl=
e=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;&nbsp; can be carried in the SRLG sub-object.&nbs=
p; Therefore, during the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" styl=
e=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;&nbsp; forwarding of the Resv message in the upst=
ream direction, the SRLG<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" styl=
e=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;&nbsp; information is not needed to be collected =
hop by hop.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">With th=
e paragraph<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" styl=
e=3D"color:#993366">&#8220;As in the procedures defined for the processing =
of RROs in Section 4.4.3 of RFC 3209 [RFC3209], the processing of SRLG coll=
ection for Resv messages mirrors that of the Path
 messages.&nbsp; That is, each intermediate node adds an SRLG sub-object to=
 the RRO.&#8220;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#003300"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300">My poin=
t is that we should NOT mirror SRLG values from Path RRP to Resv RRO. We sh=
ould just record SRLG values for the reverse direction of
 the link in Resv RRO. Similarly, SRLGs of forward direction on the link in=
 Path RRO. The collection should happen on hop-by-hop basis for both path a=
nd resv RRO.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">The ben=
efits of this approach are that<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-lis=
t:l0 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><span sty=
le=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"=
>the SRLG information received by the head and tail nodes is consistent<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-lis=
t:l0 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><span sty=
le=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"=
>no information is lost when the SRLG information is collected in the Resv,=
 it still includes a hop to SRLG mapping.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300">I agree=
 that the collection should happen on hop-by-hop basis for both path and re=
sv RRO.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#003300">oat</sp=
an><i><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">etwork Technologies</spa=
n></i><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><br>
<b>Metaswitch Networks<o:p></o:p></b></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><a href=
=3D"mailto:alan.davey@metaswitch.com">alan.davey@metaswitch.com</a><br>
&#43;44 (0) 20 8366 1177<br>
</span><span style=3D"color:#993366"><a href=3D"http://network-technologies=
.metaswitch.com/">network-technologies.metaswitch.com</a><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 03 December 2012 17:36<br>
<b>To:</b> Alan Davey; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-coll=
ect@tools.ietf.org">
draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:ccamp@ietf.org">ccamp@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-col=
lect-01<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Alan-
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">There are use cases wh=
ere SRLGs for forward direction may not be same as SRLGs for reverse direct=
ion. E.g., consider a use case where an associated non-corouted
 tunnel is used as an FA; forward and reverse directions may follow differe=
nt paths in the network. When such FA is used as a TE link for the tunnel f=
or which SRLG recording is requested, forward and reverse SRLG values would=
 be different.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Thanks<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Regards&#8230;Zafar<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Alan Davey<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 03, 2012 12:23 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ie=
tf.org">
draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:ccamp@ietf.org">ccamp@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect=
-01<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Authors<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">I have a doubt about draft-ietf=
-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01, specifically about the SRLG collection.&nbs=
p; Could you please let me know what you think?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">According to section 4.1, the c=
ollection of SRLG information in RROs for the Resv is different to that for=
 the Path.&nbsp; This is unlike the existing processing of RROs, which are =
handled in the same way for the upstream
 and downstream directions (as defined in RFC3209 section 4.4.3).&nbsp; Can=
 you please explain why the collection of SRLGs must be different in the di=
fferent directions?&nbsp; My preference is that SRLG information collection=
 in RROs is handled in the same way as existing
 RRO processing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Alan Davey<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><i><span lang=3D"EN-GB=
" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&=
quot;">Network Technologies</span></i><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
<b><span style=3D"color:navy">Metaswitch Networks<o:p></o:p></span></b></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quo=
t;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><=
a href=3D"mailto:alan.davey@metaswitch.com"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">alan.davey@metaswitc=
h.com</span></a></span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
<span style=3D"color:gray">&#43;44 (0) 20 8366 1177<br>
</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;=
,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"http://network-technologies.metaswitch.=
com/">network-technologies.metaswitch.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
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</div>
</body>
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From mhartley@cisco.com  Tue Dec 11 09:37:04 2012
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From: "Matt Hartley (mhartley)" <mhartley@cisco.com>
To: Alan Davey <Alan.Davey@metaswitch.com>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, "draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01
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Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 17:36:59 +0000
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01
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Alan,

Apologies for the delay in responding on this one. Inline:

I suggest replacing the following paragraph in section 4.1

   "Before the Resv message is sent to the upstream node, the tail node
   adds an SRLG sub-object to the RRO.  The collected SRLG information
   can be carried in the SRLG sub-object.  Therefore, during the
   forwarding of the Resv message in the upstream direction, the SRLG
   information is not needed to be collected hop by hop."

With the paragraph

"As in the procedures defined for the processing of RROs in Section 4.4.3 o=
f RFC 3209 [RFC3209], the processing of SRLG collection for Resv messages m=
irrors that of the Path messages.  That is, each intermediate node adds an =
SRLG sub-object to the RRO."

When you say, "the processing... mirrors..." I presume you mean that the in=
ternal logic will be similar, rather than that the same values will be plac=
ed into the Resv RRO as went into the Path RRO?

Anyway, yes, I agree with the principle that the SRLGs in the Resv RRO shou=
ld also be collected hop-by-hop rather than copied over from the Path RRO a=
t the tail.

Cheers

Matt

The benefits of this approach are that

-          the SRLG information received by the head and tail nodes is cons=
istent
-          no information is lost when the SRLG information is collected in=
 the Resv, it still includes a hop to SRLG mapping.

Regards

Alan Davey

Network Technologies
Metaswitch Networks

alan.davey@metaswitch.com<mailto:alan.davey@metaswitch.com>
+44 (0) 20 8366 1177
network-technologies.metaswitch.com<http://network-technologies.metaswitch.=
com/>


From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:ccamp-b=
ounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Zafar Ali (zali)
Sent: 03 December 2012 17:36
To: Alan Davey; draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org<mailto=
:draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org>
Cc: ccamp@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01

Alan-

There are use cases where SRLGs for forward direction may not be same as SR=
LGs for reverse direction. E.g., consider a use case where an associated no=
n-corouted tunnel is used as an FA; forward and reverse directions may foll=
ow different paths in the network. When such FA is used as a TE link for th=
e tunnel for which SRLG recording is requested, forward and reverse SRLG va=
lues would be different.

Thanks

Regards...Zafar

From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:ccamp-b=
ounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alan Davey
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2012 12:23 PM
To: draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-=
ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org>
Cc: ccamp@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01

Authors

I have a doubt about draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01, specifically=
 about the SRLG collection.  Could you please let me know what you think?

According to section 4.1, the collection of SRLG information in RROs for th=
e Resv is different to that for the Path.  This is unlike the existing proc=
essing of RROs, which are handled in the same way for the upstream and down=
stream directions (as defined in RFC3209 section 4.4.3).  Can you please ex=
plain why the collection of SRLGs must be different in the different direct=
ions?  My preference is that SRLG information collection in RROs is handled=
 in the same way as existing RRO processing.

Regards

Alan Davey


Network Technologies
Metaswitch Networks

alan.davey@metaswitch.com<mailto:alan.davey@metaswitch.com>
+44 (0) 20 8366 1177
network-technologies.metaswitch.com<http://network-technologies.metaswitch.=
com/>


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Bo=
okman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">Alan,<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Bo=
okman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Bo=
okman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">Apologies for the del=
ay in responding on this one. Inline:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Bo=
okman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></sp=
an></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">I sugge=
st replacing the following paragraph in section 4.1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" styl=
e=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;&nbsp; &#8220;Before the Resv message is sent to =
the upstream node, the tail node<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" styl=
e=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;&nbsp; adds an SRLG sub-object to the RRO.&nbsp; =
The collected SRLG information<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" styl=
e=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;&nbsp; can be carried in the SRLG sub-object.&nbs=
p; Therefore, during the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" styl=
e=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;&nbsp; forwarding of the Resv message in the upst=
ream direction, the SRLG<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" styl=
e=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;&nbsp; information is not needed to be collected =
hop by hop.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">With th=
e paragraph<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" styl=
e=3D"color:#993366">&#8220;As in the procedures defined for the processing =
of RROs in Section 4.4.3 of RFC 3209 [RFC3209], the processing of SRLG coll=
ection for Resv messages mirrors that of the Path
 messages.&nbsp; That is, each intermediate node adds an SRLG sub-object to=
 the RRO.&#8220;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">When y=
ou say, &#8220;the processing... mirrors...&#8221; I presume you mean that =
the internal logic will be similar, rather than that the same values will
 be placed into the Resv RRO as went into the Path RRO?<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">Anyway=
, yes, I agree with the principle that the SRLGs in the Resv RRO should als=
o be collected hop-by-hop rather than copied over from the
 Path RRO at the tail. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">Cheers=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">Matt<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">The ben=
efits of this approach are that<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-lis=
t:l0 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><span sty=
le=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"=
>the SRLG information received by the head and tail nodes is consistent<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-lis=
t:l0 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><span sty=
le=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"=
>no information is lost when the SRLG information is collected in the Resv,=
 it still includes a hop to SRLG mapping.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">Regards=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">Alan Da=
vey<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">Netw=
ork Technologies</span></i><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><br=
>
<b>Metaswitch Networks<o:p></o:p></b></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><a href=
=3D"mailto:alan.davey@metaswitch.com">alan.davey@metaswitch.com</a><br>
&#43;44 (0) 20 8366 1177<br>
</span><span style=3D"color:#993366"><a href=3D"http://network-technologies=
.metaswitch.com/">network-technologies.metaswitch.com</a><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 03 December 2012 17:36<br>
<b>To:</b> Alan Davey; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-coll=
ect@tools.ietf.org">
draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:ccamp@ietf.org">ccamp@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-col=
lect-01<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Alan-
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">There are use cases wh=
ere SRLGs for forward direction may not be same as SRLGs for reverse direct=
ion. E.g., consider a use case where an associated non-corouted
 tunnel is used as an FA; forward and reverse directions may follow differe=
nt paths in the network. When such FA is used as a TE link for the tunnel f=
or which SRLG recording is requested, forward and reverse SRLG values would=
 be different.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Thanks<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Regards&#8230;Zafar<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Alan Davey<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 03, 2012 12:23 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ie=
tf.org">
draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:ccamp@ietf.org">ccamp@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect=
-01<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Authors<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">I have a doubt about draft-ietf=
-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01, specifically about the SRLG collection.&nbs=
p; Could you please let me know what you think?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">According to section 4.1, the c=
ollection of SRLG information in RROs for the Resv is different to that for=
 the Path.&nbsp; This is unlike the existing processing of RROs, which are =
handled in the same way for the upstream
 and downstream directions (as defined in RFC3209 section 4.4.3).&nbsp; Can=
 you please explain why the collection of SRLGs must be different in the di=
fferent directions?&nbsp; My preference is that SRLG information collection=
 in RROs is handled in the same way as existing
 RRO processing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Alan Davey<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><i><span lang=3D"EN-GB=
" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&=
quot;">Network Technologies</span></i><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
<b><span style=3D"color:navy">Metaswitch Networks<o:p></o:p></span></b></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quo=
t;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><=
a href=3D"mailto:alan.davey@metaswitch.com"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">alan.davey@metaswitc=
h.com</span></a></span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
<span style=3D"color:gray">&#43;44 (0) 20 8366 1177<br>
</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;=
,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"http://network-technologies.metaswitch.=
com/">network-technologies.metaswitch.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
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From: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
To: "Matt Hartley (mhartley)" <mhartley@cisco.com>, Alan Davey <Alan.Davey@metaswitch.com>, "draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01
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Cc: "ccamp@ietf.org" <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01
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Alan:

I had an offline chat w/ Matt and it will be great if your proposed text ca=
n be clarified based feedback from Matt/ me.

Thanks

Regards...Zafar

From: Matt Hartley (mhartley)
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2012 12:37 PM
To: Alan Davey; Zafar Ali (zali); draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@too=
ls.ietf.org
Cc: ccamp@ietf.org; Matt Hartley (mhartley)
Subject: RE: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01

Alan,

Apologies for the delay in responding on this one. Inline:

I suggest replacing the following paragraph in section 4.1

   "Before the Resv message is sent to the upstream node, the tail node
   adds an SRLG sub-object to the RRO.  The collected SRLG information
   can be carried in the SRLG sub-object.  Therefore, during the
   forwarding of the Resv message in the upstream direction, the SRLG
   information is not needed to be collected hop by hop."

With the paragraph

"As in the procedures defined for the processing of RROs in Section 4.4.3 o=
f RFC 3209 [RFC3209], the processing of SRLG collection for Resv messages m=
irrors that of the Path messages.  That is, each intermediate node adds an =
SRLG sub-object to the RRO."

When you say, "the processing... mirrors..." I presume you mean that the in=
ternal logic will be similar, rather than that the same values will be plac=
ed into the Resv RRO as went into the Path RRO?

Anyway, yes, I agree with the principle that the SRLGs in the Resv RRO shou=
ld also be collected hop-by-hop rather than copied over from the Path RRO a=
t the tail.

Cheers

Matt

The benefits of this approach are that

-          the SRLG information received by the head and tail nodes is cons=
istent
-          no information is lost when the SRLG information is collected in=
 the Resv, it still includes a hop to SRLG mapping.

Regards

Alan Davey

Network Technologies
Metaswitch Networks

alan.davey@metaswitch.com<mailto:alan.davey@metaswitch.com>
+44 (0) 20 8366 1177
network-technologies.metaswitch.com<http://network-technologies.metaswitch.=
com/>


From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:ccamp-b=
ounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Zafar Ali (zali)
Sent: 03 December 2012 17:36
To: Alan Davey; draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org<mailto=
:draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org>
Cc: ccamp@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01

Alan-

There are use cases where SRLGs for forward direction may not be same as SR=
LGs for reverse direction. E.g., consider a use case where an associated no=
n-corouted tunnel is used as an FA; forward and reverse directions may foll=
ow different paths in the network. When such FA is used as a TE link for th=
e tunnel for which SRLG recording is requested, forward and reverse SRLG va=
lues would be different.

Thanks

Regards...Zafar

From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:ccamp-b=
ounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alan Davey
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2012 12:23 PM
To: draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-=
ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org>
Cc: ccamp@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01

Authors

I have a doubt about draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01, specifically=
 about the SRLG collection.  Could you please let me know what you think?

According to section 4.1, the collection of SRLG information in RROs for th=
e Resv is different to that for the Path.  This is unlike the existing proc=
essing of RROs, which are handled in the same way for the upstream and down=
stream directions (as defined in RFC3209 section 4.4.3).  Can you please ex=
plain why the collection of SRLGs must be different in the different direct=
ions?  My preference is that SRLG information collection in RROs is handled=
 in the same way as existing RRO processing.

Regards

Alan Davey


Network Technologies
Metaswitch Networks

alan.davey@metaswitch.com<mailto:alan.davey@metaswitch.com>
+44 (0) 20 8366 1177
network-technologies.metaswitch.com<http://network-technologies.metaswitch.=
com/>


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300">Alan:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300">I had an offline chat =
w/ Matt and it will be great if your proposed text can be clarified based f=
eedback from Matt/ me.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#003300">Thanks<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#003300"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#003300">Regards&#8230;Zafar<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Matt Har=
tley (mhartley)
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 11, 2012 12:37 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Alan Davey; Zafar Ali (zali); draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-coll=
ect@tools.ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ccamp@ietf.org; Matt Hartley (mhartley)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-col=
lect-01<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Bo=
okman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">Alan,<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Bo=
okman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Bo=
okman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">Apologies for the del=
ay in responding on this one. Inline:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Bo=
okman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></sp=
an></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">I sugge=
st replacing the following paragraph in section 4.1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" styl=
e=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;&nbsp; &#8220;Before the Resv message is sent to =
the upstream node, the tail node<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" styl=
e=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;&nbsp; adds an SRLG sub-object to the RRO.&nbsp; =
The collected SRLG information<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" styl=
e=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;&nbsp; can be carried in the SRLG sub-object.&nbs=
p; Therefore, during the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" styl=
e=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;&nbsp; forwarding of the Resv message in the upst=
ream direction, the SRLG<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" styl=
e=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;&nbsp; information is not needed to be collected =
hop by hop.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">With th=
e paragraph<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" styl=
e=3D"color:#993366">&#8220;As in the procedures defined for the processing =
of RROs in Section 4.4.3 of RFC 3209 [RFC3209], the processing of SRLG coll=
ection for Resv messages mirrors that of the Path
 messages.&nbsp; That is, each intermediate node adds an SRLG sub-object to=
 the RRO.&#8220;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">When y=
ou say, &#8220;the processing... mirrors...&#8221; I presume you mean that =
the internal logic will be similar, rather than that the same values will
 be placed into the Resv RRO as went into the Path RRO?<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">Anyway=
, yes, I agree with the principle that the SRLGs in the Resv RRO should als=
o be collected hop-by-hop rather than copied over from the
 Path RRO at the tail. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">Cheers=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">Matt<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">The ben=
efits of this approach are that<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-lis=
t:l0 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><span sty=
le=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"=
>the SRLG information received by the head and tail nodes is consistent<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-lis=
t:l0 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><span sty=
le=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"=
>no information is lost when the SRLG information is collected in the Resv,=
 it still includes a hop to SRLG mapping.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">Regards=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">Alan Da=
vey<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">Netw=
ork Technologies</span></i><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><br=
>
<b>Metaswitch Networks<o:p></o:p></b></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><a href=
=3D"mailto:alan.davey@metaswitch.com">alan.davey@metaswitch.com</a><br>
&#43;44 (0) 20 8366 1177<br>
</span><span style=3D"color:#993366"><a href=3D"http://network-technologies=
.metaswitch.com/">network-technologies.metaswitch.com</a><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 03 December 2012 17:36<br>
<b>To:</b> Alan Davey; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-coll=
ect@tools.ietf.org">
draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:ccamp@ietf.org">ccamp@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-col=
lect-01<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Alan-
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">There are use cases wh=
ere SRLGs for forward direction may not be same as SRLGs for reverse direct=
ion. E.g., consider a use case where an associated non-corouted
 tunnel is used as an FA; forward and reverse directions may follow differe=
nt paths in the network. When such FA is used as a TE link for the tunnel f=
or which SRLG recording is requested, forward and reverse SRLG values would=
 be different.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Thanks<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Regards&#8230;Zafar<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Alan Davey<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 03, 2012 12:23 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ie=
tf.org">
draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:ccamp@ietf.org">ccamp@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect=
-01<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Authors<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">I have a doubt about draft-ietf=
-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01, specifically about the SRLG collection.&nbs=
p; Could you please let me know what you think?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">According to section 4.1, the c=
ollection of SRLG information in RROs for the Resv is different to that for=
 the Path.&nbsp; This is unlike the existing processing of RROs, which are =
handled in the same way for the upstream
 and downstream directions (as defined in RFC3209 section 4.4.3).&nbsp; Can=
 you please explain why the collection of SRLGs must be different in the di=
fferent directions?&nbsp; My preference is that SRLG information collection=
 in RROs is handled in the same way as existing
 RRO processing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Alan Davey<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><i><span lang=3D"EN-GB=
" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&=
quot;">Network Technologies</span></i><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
<b><span style=3D"color:navy">Metaswitch Networks<o:p></o:p></span></b></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quo=
t;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><=
a href=3D"mailto:alan.davey@metaswitch.com"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">alan.davey@metaswitc=
h.com</span></a></span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
<span style=3D"color:gray">&#43;44 (0) 20 8366 1177<br>
</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;=
,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"http://network-technologies.metaswitch.=
com/">network-technologies.metaswitch.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_B6585D85A128FD47857D0FD58D8120D3AFAE44xmbrcdx14ciscocom_--

From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Wed Dec 12 06:06:28 2012
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Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 06:06:26 -0800
Cc: ccamp@ietf.org
Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-mpls-tp-oam-ext-11.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.
 This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Work=
ing Group of the IETF.

	Title           : Configuration of Pro-Active Operations, Administration, =
and Maintenance (OAM) Functions for MPLS-based Transport Networks using RSV=
P-TE
	Author(s)       : Elisa Bellagamba
                          Loa Andersson
                          Pontus Skoldstrom
                          Dave Ward
                          Attila Takacs
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-mpls-tp-oam-ext-11.txt
	Pages           : 21
	Date            : 2012-12-12

Abstract:
   This specification describes the configuration of pro-active MPLS-TP
   Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) Functions for a
   given LSP using a set of TLVs that are carried by the RSVP-TE
   protocol.

   This document is a product of a joint Internet Engineering Task Force
   (IETF) / International Telecommunication Union Telecommunication
   Standardization Sector (ITU-T) effort to include an MPLS Transport
   Profile within the IETF MPLS and PWE3 architectures to support the
   capabilities and functionalities of a packet transport network.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-mpls-tp-oam-ext

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-mpls-tp-oam-ext-11

A diff from the previous version is available at:
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-mpls-tp-oam-ext=
-11


Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From giomarti@cisco.com  Wed Dec 12 10:34:24 2012
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From: "Giovanni Martinelli (giomarti)" <giomarti@cisco.com>
To: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] IPR Disclosure: Cisco's Statement of IPR Related	to draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-10
Thread-Index: AQHN09l3/MBPeKutSEO6SFTtb89Cbw==
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Subject: [CCAMP] Fwd: IPR Disclosure: Cisco's Statement of IPR Related	to	draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-10
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Dear Ccamp,

I know I was involved in the discussions on the mailing list earlier this y=
ear, so I am sorry the disclosure was a bit later than ideal. I hope that t=
he disclosure at the time of WG last call has not inconvenienced anyone.

BR,
G


Begin forwarded message:

> From: IETF Secretariat <ietf-ipr@ietf.org>
> Subject: [CCAMP] IPR Disclosure: Cisco's Statement of IPR Related to	draf=
t-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-10
> Date: December 6, 2012 18:44:52 GMT+01:00
> To: <gregb@grotto-networking.com>, <ylee@huawei.com>, <danli@huawei.com>,=
 <imajuku.wataru@lab.ntt.co.jp>
> Cc: <ccamp@ietf.org>, <dbrungard@att.com>, <ipr-announce@ietf.org>
>=20
>=20
> Dear Greg Bernstein, Young Lee, Dan Li, Wataru Imajuku:
>=20
> An IPR disclosure that pertains to your Internet-Draft entitled "General
> Network Element Constraint Encoding for GMPLS Controlled Networks" (draft=
-ietf-
> ccamp-general-constraint-encode) was submitted to the IETF Secretariat on
> 2012-12-05 and has been posted on the "IETF Page of Intellectual Property=
 Rights
> Disclosures" (https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/1926/). The title of the I=
PR
> disclosure is "Cisco's Statement of IPR Related to draft-ietf-ccamp-gener=
al-
> constraint-encode-10."");
>=20
> The IETF Secretariat
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp


From lberger@labn.net  Wed Dec 12 11:13:17 2012
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Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 14:12:35 -0500
From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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To: "Giovanni Martinelli (giomarti)" <giomarti@cisco.com>
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Fwd: IPR Disclosure: Cisco's Statement of IPR Related to	draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-10
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Giovanni,
	Can you make comment on this disclosure relative to
https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/1771/?

Much thanks,
Lou

On 12/12/2012 1:34 PM, Giovanni Martinelli (giomarti) wrote:
> Dear Ccamp,
> 
> I know I was involved in the discussions on the mailing list earlier this year, so I am sorry the disclosure was a bit later than ideal. I hope that the disclosure at the time of WG last call has not inconvenienced anyone.
> 
> BR,
> G
> 
> 
> Begin forwarded message:
> 
>> From: IETF Secretariat <ietf-ipr@ietf.org>
>> Subject: [CCAMP] IPR Disclosure: Cisco's Statement of IPR Related to	draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-10
>> Date: December 6, 2012 18:44:52 GMT+01:00
>> To: <gregb@grotto-networking.com>, <ylee@huawei.com>, <danli@huawei.com>, <imajuku.wataru@lab.ntt.co.jp>
>> Cc: <ccamp@ietf.org>, <dbrungard@att.com>, <ipr-announce@ietf.org>
>>
>>
>> Dear Greg Bernstein, Young Lee, Dan Li, Wataru Imajuku:
>>
>> An IPR disclosure that pertains to your Internet-Draft entitled "General
>> Network Element Constraint Encoding for GMPLS Controlled Networks" (draft-ietf-
>> ccamp-general-constraint-encode) was submitted to the IETF Secretariat on
>> 2012-12-05 and has been posted on the "IETF Page of Intellectual Property Rights
>> Disclosures" (https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/1926/). The title of the IPR
>> disclosure is "Cisco's Statement of IPR Related to draft-ietf-ccamp-general-
>> constraint-encode-10."");
>>
>> The IETF Secretariat
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> 
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> 
> 
> 
> 

From zhangfatai@huawei.com  Wed Dec 12 22:51:59 2012
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">Hi Zafar and Alan,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">I think you both are at the same page, ie., the SRLG information =
should also be collected hop-by-hop in Resv direction (as Path direction).<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">My orig=
inal thought is based on SRLG information (of a bidirectional LSP) in the b=
oth directions are always the same, and
 then we can just copy the SRLG information into Resv RRO from Path RRo to =
avoid ununecessary re-collection.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">After I=
 saw your comments on this issue, I tend to agree that it is better to have=
 the consistent handle process as defined
 in RFC3209.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">Best Re=
gards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">Fatai<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=
=CE=CC=E5">=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5"> Zafar A=
li (zali) [mailto:zali@cisco.com]
<br>
</span><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=B7=A2=
=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></span></b><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5"> 2012</span><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=C4=EA<span lang=3D"EN-U=
S">12</span>=D4=C2<span lang=3D"EN-US">11</span>=C8=D5<span lang=3D"EN-US">
 23:50<br>
</span><b>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"> Alan Davey; draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org<br=
>
</span><b>=B3=AD=CB=CD<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
> ccamp@ietf.org<br>
</span><b>=D6=F7=CC=E2<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
> RE: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01<o:p></=
o:p></span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300">Hi Alan=
:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300">Please =
see in-line.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#003300">Thanks<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#003300"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#003300">Regards=
=A1=ADZafar<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> Alan Davey [mailto:Alan.Davey@metaswitch.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 06, 2012 4:48 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Zafar Ali (zali); draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ie=
tf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ccamp@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-col=
lect-01<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">Hi Zafa=
r<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">Thanks =
for your response.&nbsp; However, I am considering only the SRLG collection=
 for a single LSP.&nbsp; Collection of SRLGs for associated bi-directional =
LSPs and how the collection may be presented to
 other layers is orthogonal to this discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#003300"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300">No it i=
s not orthogonal to this discussion. It is very much related. Please consid=
er a bi-directional non-corouted &nbsp;TE link is used as an FA/
 RA for an LSP who=A1=AFs SRLG info is being recording. So we cannot assume=
 forward and reverse SRLGs are *<b>always</b>* the same =A8C and why assume=
 when we don=A1=AFt have to make such assumption. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">I still=
 have a doubt about the collection of SRLG information in the Resv message.=
&nbsp; Unless there is a reason not to, I think that the collection should =
be handled in the same way in both the upstream
 and downstream directions.&nbsp; Please let me know what you think of the =
following suggested change to the draft.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">I sugge=
st replacing the following paragraph in section 4.1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" st=
yle=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;&nbsp; =A1=B0Before the Resv message is sent to=
 the upstream node, the tail node<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" st=
yle=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;&nbsp; adds an SRLG sub-object to the RRO.&nbsp=
; The collected SRLG information<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" st=
yle=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;&nbsp; can be carried in the SRLG sub-object.&n=
bsp; Therefore, during the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" st=
yle=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;&nbsp; forwarding of the Resv message in the up=
stream direction, the SRLG<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" st=
yle=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;&nbsp; information is not needed to be collecte=
d hop by hop.=A1=B1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">With th=
e paragraph<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" st=
yle=3D"color:#993366">=A1=B0As in the procedures defined for the processing=
 of RROs in Section 4.4.3 of RFC 3209 [RFC3209], the processing of SRLG col=
lection for Resv messages mirrors that of the
 Path messages.&nbsp; That is, each intermediate node adds an SRLG sub-obje=
ct to the RRO.=A1=B0<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#003300"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300">My poin=
t is that we should NOT mirror SRLG values from Path RRP to Resv RRO. We sh=
ould just record SRLG values for the reverse direction of
 the link in Resv RRO. Similarly, SRLGs of forward direction on the link in=
 Path RRO. The collection should happen on hop-by-hop basis for both path a=
nd resv RRO.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">The ben=
efits of this approach are that<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-=
list:l0 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><span sty=
le=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"=
>the SRLG information received by the head and tail nodes is consistent<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-=
list:l0 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><span sty=
le=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"=
>no information is lost when the SRLG information is collected in the Resv,=
 it still includes a hop to SRLG mapping.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300">I agree=
 that the collection should happen on hop-by-hop basis for both path and re=
sv RRO.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#003300">oat</sp=
an><i><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">etwork Technologies</spa=
n></i><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><br>
<b>Metaswitch Networks<o:p></o:p></b></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><a href=
=3D"mailto:alan.davey@metaswitch.com">alan.davey@metaswitch.com</a><br>
&#43;44 (0) 20 8366 1177<br>
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#993366"><a href=3D"http://netwo=
rk-technologies.metaswitch.com/">network-technologies.metaswitch.com</a><o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;">
<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 03 December 2012 17:36<br>
<b>To:</b> Alan Davey; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-coll=
ect@tools.ietf.org">
draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:ccamp@ietf.org">ccamp@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-col=
lect-01<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Alan-
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">There a=
re use cases where SRLGs for forward direction may not be same as SRLGs for=
 reverse direction. E.g., consider a use case where an associated
 non-corouted tunnel is used as an FA; forward and reverse directions may f=
ollow different paths in the network. When such FA is used as a TE link for=
 the tunnel for which SRLG recording is requested, forward and reverse SRLG=
 values would be different.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Thanks<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Regards=
=A1=ADZafar<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;">
<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Alan Davey<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 03, 2012 12:23 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ie=
tf.org">
draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:ccamp@ietf.org">ccamp@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect=
-01<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Authors<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">I have a doubt about draft-ietf=
-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01, specifically about the SRLG collection.&nbs=
p; Could you please let me know what you think?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">According to section 4.1, the c=
ollection of SRLG information in RROs for the Resv is different to that for=
 the Path.&nbsp; This is unlike the existing processing of RROs, which are =
handled in the same way for the upstream
 and downstream directions (as defined in RFC3209 section 4.4.3).&nbsp; Can=
 you please explain why the collection of SRLGs must be different in the di=
fferent directions?&nbsp; My preference is that SRLG information collection=
 in RROs is handled in the same way as existing
 RRO processing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Alan Davey<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><i><span lang=3D"EN-GB=
" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&=
quot;">Network Technologies</span></i><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
<b><span style=3D"color:navy">Metaswitch Networks<o:p></o:p></span></b></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quo=
t;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><=
a href=3D"mailto:alan.davey@metaswitch.com"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">alan.davey@metaswitc=
h.com</span></a></span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
<span style=3D"color:gray">&#43;44 (0) 20 8366 1177<br>
</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"http://network-technolog=
ies.metaswitch.com/">network-technologies.metaswitch.com</a><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
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From zhangfatai@huawei.com  Wed Dec 12 22:57:28 2012
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From: Fatai Zhang <zhangfatai@huawei.com>
To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, "Matt Hartley (mhartley)" <mhartley@cisco.com>, Alan Davey <Alan.Davey@metaswitch.com>, "draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01
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Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 06:57:18 +0000
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">Hi all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">I think the =A1=B0</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:ma=
roon">the processing... mirrors...=A1=B1
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">may ca=
use confusion or misunderstanding.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">To Alan=
, could you provide some text to refine this sentense?<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">Best Re=
gards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">Fatai<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSu=
n">=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></span></b><span lang=3D"=
EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun"> ccamp-bounces@ietf.or=
g [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org]
</span><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun">=B4=FA=B1=ED =
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSu=
n">Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
</span><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun">=B7=A2=CB=CD=
=CA=B1=BC=E4<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun"> 2012</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun">=C4=EA<span lang=3D"EN-US">12</span>=D4=C2=
<span lang=3D"EN-US">12</span>=C8=D5<span lang=3D"EN-US">
 2:01<br>
</span><b>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"> Matt Hartley (mhartley); Alan Davey; draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-=
collect@tools.ietf.org<br>
</span><b>=B3=AD=CB=CD<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
> ccamp@ietf.org<br>
</span><b>=D6=F7=CC=E2<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
> Re: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01<o:p></=
o:p></span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300">Alan:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300">I had a=
n offline chat w/ Matt and it will be great if your proposed text can be cl=
arified based feedback from Matt/ me.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#003300">Thanks<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#003300"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#003300">Regards=
=A1=ADZafar<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> Matt Hartley (mhartley)
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 11, 2012 12:37 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Alan Davey; Zafar Ali (zali); draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-coll=
ect@tools.ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ccamp@ietf.org; Matt Hartley (mhartley)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-col=
lect-01<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">Alan,<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">Apolog=
ies for the delay in responding on this one. Inline:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">I sugge=
st replacing the following paragraph in section 4.1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" st=
yle=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;&nbsp; =A1=B0Before the Resv message is sent to=
 the upstream node, the tail node<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" st=
yle=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;&nbsp; adds an SRLG sub-object to the RRO.&nbsp=
; The collected SRLG information<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" st=
yle=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;&nbsp; can be carried in the SRLG sub-object.&n=
bsp; Therefore, during the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" st=
yle=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;&nbsp; forwarding of the Resv message in the up=
stream direction, the SRLG<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" st=
yle=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;&nbsp; information is not needed to be collecte=
d hop by hop.=A1=B1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">With th=
e paragraph<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" st=
yle=3D"color:#993366">=A1=B0As in the procedures defined for the processing=
 of RROs in Section 4.4.3 of RFC 3209 [RFC3209], the processing of SRLG col=
lection for Resv messages mirrors that of the
 Path messages.&nbsp; That is, each intermediate node adds an SRLG sub-obje=
ct to the RRO.=A1=B0<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">When y=
ou say, =A1=B0the processing... mirrors...=A1=B1 I presume you mean that th=
e internal logic will be similar, rather than that the same values will
 be placed into the Resv RRO as went into the Path RRO?<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">Anyway=
, yes, I agree with the principle that the SRLGs in the Resv RRO should als=
o be collected hop-by-hop rather than copied over from the
 Path RRO at the tail. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">Cheers=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">Matt<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">The ben=
efits of this approach are that<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-=
list:l0 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><span sty=
le=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"=
>the SRLG information received by the head and tail nodes is consistent<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-=
list:l0 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><span sty=
le=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"=
>no information is lost when the SRLG information is collected in the Resv,=
 it still includes a hop to SRLG mapping.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">Regards=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">Alan Da=
vey<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">Netw=
ork Technologies</span></i><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><br=
>
<b>Metaswitch Networks<o:p></o:p></b></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><a href=
=3D"mailto:alan.davey@metaswitch.com">alan.davey@metaswitch.com</a><br>
&#43;44 (0) 20 8366 1177<br>
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#993366"><a href=3D"http://netwo=
rk-technologies.metaswitch.com/">network-technologies.metaswitch.com</a><o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;">
<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 03 December 2012 17:36<br>
<b>To:</b> Alan Davey; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-coll=
ect@tools.ietf.org">
draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:ccamp@ietf.org">ccamp@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-col=
lect-01<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Alan-
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">There a=
re use cases where SRLGs for forward direction may not be same as SRLGs for=
 reverse direction. E.g., consider a use case where an associated
 non-corouted tunnel is used as an FA; forward and reverse directions may f=
ollow different paths in the network. When such FA is used as a TE link for=
 the tunnel for which SRLG recording is requested, forward and reverse SRLG=
 values would be different.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Thanks<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Regards=
=A1=ADZafar<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;">
<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Alan Davey<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 03, 2012 12:23 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ie=
tf.org">
draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:ccamp@ietf.org">ccamp@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect=
-01<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Authors<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">I have a doubt about draft-ietf=
-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01, specifically about the SRLG collection.&nbs=
p; Could you please let me know what you think?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">According to section 4.1, the c=
ollection of SRLG information in RROs for the Resv is different to that for=
 the Path.&nbsp; This is unlike the existing processing of RROs, which are =
handled in the same way for the upstream
 and downstream directions (as defined in RFC3209 section 4.4.3).&nbsp; Can=
 you please explain why the collection of SRLGs must be different in the di=
fferent directions?&nbsp; My preference is that SRLG information collection=
 in RROs is handled in the same way as existing
 RRO processing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Alan Davey<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><i><span lang=3D"EN-GB=
" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&=
quot;">Network Technologies</span></i><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
<b><span style=3D"color:navy">Metaswitch Networks<o:p></o:p></span></b></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quo=
t;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><=
a href=3D"mailto:alan.davey@metaswitch.com"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">alan.davey@metaswitc=
h.com</span></a></span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
<span style=3D"color:gray">&#43;44 (0) 20 8366 1177<br>
</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"http://network-technolog=
ies.metaswitch.com/">network-technologies.metaswitch.com</a><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
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From: "Lidan (Dan)" <huawei.danli@huawei.com>
To: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
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From giomarti@cisco.com  Thu Dec 13 00:16:35 2012
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From: "Giovanni Martinelli (giomarti)" <giomarti@cisco.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Fwd: IPR Disclosure: Cisco's Statement of IPR Related to	draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-10
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Fwd: IPR Disclosure: Cisco's Statement of IPR Related to	draft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-10
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An IPR was timely disclosed on draft-kattan-wson-property-01. =20

Modification added by authors  to  draft-ietf-general-constrain-encode (sta=
rting from rev 07, march 2012) make us thinking the same IPR apply to this =
WG draft.  I was not involved in WG draft editing nor suggesting that since=
 I'm not among the list of authors/contributors.   I was discussing on ccam=
p ml (march 12 and later august 12) about new modification added by authors=
 to WG document.

Hope this help clarify.

Cheers
G


On Dec 12, 2012, at 20:12 , Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
 wrote:

> Giovanni,
> 	Can you make comment on this disclosure relative to
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/1771/?
>=20
> Much thanks,
> Lou
>=20
> On 12/12/2012 1:34 PM, Giovanni Martinelli (giomarti) wrote:
>> Dear Ccamp,
>>=20
>> I know I was involved in the discussions on the mailing list earlier thi=
s year, so I am sorry the disclosure was a bit later than ideal. I hope tha=
t the disclosure at the time of WG last call has not inconvenienced anyone.
>>=20
>> BR,
>> G
>>=20
>>=20
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>=20
>>> From: IETF Secretariat <ietf-ipr@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: [CCAMP] IPR Disclosure: Cisco's Statement of IPR Related to	dr=
aft-ietf-ccamp-general-constraint-encode-10
>>> Date: December 6, 2012 18:44:52 GMT+01:00
>>> To: <gregb@grotto-networking.com>, <ylee@huawei.com>, <danli@huawei.com=
>, <imajuku.wataru@lab.ntt.co.jp>
>>> Cc: <ccamp@ietf.org>, <dbrungard@att.com>, <ipr-announce@ietf.org>
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Dear Greg Bernstein, Young Lee, Dan Li, Wataru Imajuku:
>>>=20
>>> An IPR disclosure that pertains to your Internet-Draft entitled "Genera=
l
>>> Network Element Constraint Encoding for GMPLS Controlled Networks" (dra=
ft-ietf-
>>> ccamp-general-constraint-encode) was submitted to the IETF Secretariat =
on
>>> 2012-12-05 and has been posted on the "IETF Page of Intellectual Proper=
ty Rights
>>> Disclosures" (https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/1926/). The title of the=
 IPR
>>> disclosure is "Cisco's Statement of IPR Related to draft-ietf-ccamp-gen=
eral-
>>> constraint-encode-10."");
>>>=20
>>> The IETF Secretariat
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20


From Alan.Davey@metaswitch.com  Thu Dec 13 07:11:39 2012
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To: Fatai Zhang <zhangfatai@huawei.com>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>,  "Matt Hartley (mhartley)" <mhartley@cisco.com>, "draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org>
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<body lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:olive">Authors<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:olive"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:olive">Thank you all for your f=
eedback.&nbsp; I have clarified my proposed text and added more text to add=
ress Zafar=A1=AFs point that the SRLGs may differ in the upstream and downs=
tream directions.&nbsp; Could you please let me know
 what you think of the following.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:olive"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:olive">I suggest replacing the =
paragraph in section 4.1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:olive"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:olive">&nbsp;&nbsp; =A1=B0Befor=
e the Resv message is sent to the upstream node, the tail node<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:olive">&nbsp;&nbsp; adds an SRL=
G sub-object to the RRO.&nbsp; The collected SRLG information<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:olive">&nbsp;&nbsp; can be carr=
ied in the SRLG sub-object.&nbsp; Therefore, during the<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:olive">&nbsp;&nbsp; forwarding =
of the Resv message in the upstream direction, the SRLG<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:olive">&nbsp;&nbsp; information=
 is not needed to be collected hop by hop.=A1=B1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:olive"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:olive">With the following.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:olive"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"color:ol=
ive">=A1=B0When a node receives a Resv message for an LSP for which SRLG Co=
llection is specified, if local policy determines that the SRLG information=
 should not be provided to the endpoints, it
 MUST return a ResvErr.&nbsp; Otherwise, it MUST add an SRLG sub-object to =
the RRO to carry the SRLG information in the upstream direction.&nbsp; When=
 the Resv message arrives at the head node, the head node can get the SRLG =
information from the RRO in the same way as
 the tail node.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:olive"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"color:ol=
ive">Note that a link=A1=AFs SRLG information for the upstream direction ca=
nnot be assumed to be the same as that in the downstream.&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"color:ol=
ive"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:54.0pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"color:olive"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ig=
nore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"color:olive">For Path and Res=
v messages for a unidirectional LSP, a node SHOULD include SRLG sub-objects=
 in the RRO for the downstream data link only.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:olive"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:54.0pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"color:olive"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ig=
nore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"color:olive">For Path and Res=
v messages for a bidirectional LSP, a node SHOULD include SRLG sub-objects =
in the RRO for both the upstream data link and the downstream data link fro=
m the local node.&nbsp; In this case, the
 node MUST include the information in the same order for both Path messages=
 and Resv messages.&nbsp; That is, the SRLG sub-object for the upstream lin=
k is added to the RRO before the SRLG sub-object for the downstream link.=
=A1=B1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:54.0pt"><span style=3D"c=
olor:olive"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:olive">Note that the existing t=
ext in section 4.1 on nodes editing SRLG information in an RRO already refe=
rs to both Path and Resv messages and therefore needs no change.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:olive"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:olive">Regards<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:olive"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:olive">Alan Davey<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:olive"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><i><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:oli=
ve">Network Technologies</span></i><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:olive"><br>
</span><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;;color:navy">Metaswitch Networks<o:p></o:p></span></b></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:olive"=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><span style=3D"color:o=
live"><a href=3D"mailto:alan.davey@metaswitch.com"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">alan.davey@me=
taswitch.com</span></a></span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:olive"><br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;;color:gray">&#43;44 (0) 20 8366 1177<br>
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ari=
al&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:olive"><a href=3D"http://network-tech=
nologies.metaswitch.com/">network-technologies.metaswitch.com</a><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:olive"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:olive"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:olive"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:olive"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org=
]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Fatai Zhang<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 13 December 2012 06:59<br>
<b>To:</b> Zafar Ali (zali); Matt Hartley (mhartley); Alan Davey; draft-iet=
f-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ccamp@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [CCAMP] </span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:SimSun">=B4=F0=B8=B4</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">: A qu=
estion on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">Hi all,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">I think the =A1=B0</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">the proce=
ssing... mirrors...=A1=B1
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">may ca=
use confusion or misunderstanding.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">To Alan=
, could you provide some text to refine this sentense?</span><o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">Best Re=
gards</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">Fatai</=
span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:SimSun">=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB</span></b><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun">
<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
</span><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun=
">=B4=FA=B1=ED </span>
</b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun">Zafa=
r Ali (zali)<br>
</span><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun=
">=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4</span></b><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun"> 2012</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun">=C4=EA</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun">12</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun">=D4=C2</span><span lang=3D"E=
N-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun">12</span><span lang=3D"=
ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun">=C8=D5</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun">
 2:01<br>
</span><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun=
">=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB</span></b><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:1=
0.0pt;font-family:SimSun">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun"> Matt Hartley (mhartley); Alan
 Davey; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.=
org">draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
</span><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun=
">=B3=AD=CB=CD</span></b><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;=
font-family:SimSun">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.=
0pt;font-family:SimSun">
<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp@ietf.org">ccamp@ietf.org</a><br>
</span><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun=
">=D6=F7=CC=E2</span></b><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;=
font-family:SimSun">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.=
0pt;font-family:SimSun"> Re: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te=
-srlg-collect-01</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300">Alan:
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300">&nbsp;<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300">I had a=
n offline chat w/ Matt and it will be great if your proposed text can be cl=
arified based feedback from Matt/ me.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300">&nbsp;<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#003300">Thanks<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#003300">&nbsp;<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#003300">Regards=
=A1=ADZafar</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300">&nbsp;<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> Matt Hartley (mhartley)
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 11, 2012 12:37 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Alan Davey; Zafar Ali (zali); <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ccamp=
-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org">
draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:ccamp@ietf.org">ccamp@ietf.org</a>; Matt Hartl=
ey (mhartley)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-col=
lect-01</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">Alan,<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">&nbsp;=
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">Apolog=
ies for the delay in responding on this one. Inline:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">&nbsp;=
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366">I suggest replacing th=
e following paragraph in section 4.1</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"color:#9=
93366">&nbsp;&nbsp; =A1=B0Before the Resv message is sent to the upstream n=
ode, the tail node</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"color:#9=
93366">&nbsp;&nbsp; adds an SRLG sub-object to the RRO.&nbsp; The collected=
 SRLG information</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"color:#9=
93366">&nbsp;&nbsp; can be carried in the SRLG sub-object.&nbsp; Therefore,=
 during the</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"color:#9=
93366">&nbsp;&nbsp; forwarding of the Resv message in the upstream directio=
n, the SRLG</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"color:#9=
93366">&nbsp;&nbsp; information is not needed to be collected hop by hop.=
=A1=B1</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366">With the paragraph</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"color:#9=
93366">=A1=B0As in the procedures defined for the processing of RROs in Sec=
tion 4.4.3 of RFC 3209 [RFC3209], the processing of SRLG collection for Res=
v messages mirrors that of the Path messages.&nbsp;
 That is, each intermediate node adds an SRLG sub-object to the RRO.=A1=B0<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Bo=
okman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Bo=
okman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">When you say, =A1=B0t=
he processing... mirrors...=A1=B1 I presume you mean that the internal logi=
c will be similar, rather than that the same values will be placed
 into the Resv RRO as went into the Path RRO?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Bo=
okman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Bo=
okman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">Anyway, yes, I agree =
with the principle that the SRLGs in the Resv RRO should also be collected =
hop-by-hop rather than copied over from the Path RRO at
 the tail. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Bo=
okman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Bo=
okman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">Cheers</span><o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Bo=
okman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Bo=
okman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">Matt</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366">The benefits of this a=
pproach are that</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-=
list:l0 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7=
.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"color:#993366">the SRLG information =
received by the head and tail nodes is consistent</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-=
list:l0 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7=
.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"color:#993366">no information is los=
t when the SRLG information is collected in the Resv, it still includes a h=
op to SRLG mapping.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366">Regards</span><o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366">Alan Davey</span><o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i><span style=3D"color:#993366">Network Technologie=
s</span></i><span style=3D"color:#993366"><br>
<b>Metaswitch Networks</b></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366"><a href=3D"mailto:alan=
.davey@metaswitch.com">alan.davey@metaswitch.com</a><br>
&#43;44 (0) 20 8366 1177<br>
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#993366"><a href=3D"http://netwo=
rk-technologies.metaswitch.com/">network-technologies.metaswitch.com</a></s=
pan><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;">
<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 03 December 2012 17:36<br>
<b>To:</b> Alan Davey; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-coll=
ect@tools.ietf.org">
draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:ccamp@ietf.org">ccamp@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-col=
lect-01</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Alan-
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">There a=
re use cases where SRLGs for forward direction may not be same as SRLGs for=
 reverse direction. E.g., consider a use case where an associated
 non-corouted tunnel is used as an FA; forward and reverse directions may f=
ollow different paths in the network. When such FA is used as a TE link for=
 the tunnel for which SRLG recording is requested, forward and reverse SRLG=
 values would be different.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Thanks<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Regards=
=A1=ADZafar</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;">
<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Alan Davey<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 03, 2012 12:23 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ie=
tf.org">
draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:ccamp@ietf.org">ccamp@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect=
-01</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Authors<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have a doubt about draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-c=
ollect-01, specifically about the SRLG collection.&nbsp; Could you please l=
et me know what you think?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">According to section 4.1, the collection of SRLG inf=
ormation in RROs for the Resv is different to that for the Path.&nbsp; This=
 is unlike the existing processing of RROs, which are handled in the same w=
ay for the upstream and downstream directions
 (as defined in RFC3209 section 4.4.3).&nbsp; Can you please explain why th=
e collection of SRLGs must be different in the different directions?&nbsp; =
My preference is that SRLG information collection in RROs is handled in the=
 same way as existing RRO processing.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Alan Davey<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><i><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Network =
Technologies</span></i><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
<b><span style=3D"color:navy">Metaswitch Networks</span></b></span><o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><a href=3D"mailto:alan=
.davey@metaswitch.com"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">alan.davey@metaswitch.com</span></a><span=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><br>
<span style=3D"color:gray">&#43;44 (0) 20 8366 1177<br>
</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"http://network-technolog=
ies.metaswitch.com/">network-technologies.metaswitch.com</a></span><o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
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From ke-kumaki@kddi.com  Thu Dec 13 22:02:53 2012
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To: lberger@labn.net
From: Kenji Kumaki <ke-kumaki@kddi.com>
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Cc: cfilsfil@cisco.com, ccamp@ietf.org, ruediger.kunze@telekom.de
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Regarding IPR on draft-ali-ccamp-te-metric-recording-03
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Hi Lou,

No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft.

Thanks,
Kenji

<50BE8093.7090800@labn.net> $B$N!"(B
   "Regarding IPR on draft-ali-ccamp-te-metric-recording-03" $B$K(B
$B$*$$$F!"(B
   "Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>"$B$5$s$O=q$-$^$7$?!'(B

> Authors, Contributors, (CCAMP)
> 
> As part of the preparation for the poll on making this document a WG
> document:
> 
> Are you aware of any IPR that applies to
> draft-ali-ccamp-te-metric-recording-03?
> 
>   Please state either:
> 
>   "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft"
>   or
>   "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft"
> 
> If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules
> (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details)?
> 
>    If yes to the above, please state either:
> 
>   "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules"
>   or
>   "No, the IPR has not been disclosed"
> 
>   If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think
>   appropriate.
> 
> If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the
> above by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are
> aware of any relevant IPR.  This document will not advance to the next
> stage until a response has been received from each author and listed
> contributor.  NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS
> MESSAGE'S TO LINES.
> 
> If you are on the CCAMP WG email list but are not listed as an author or
> contributor, we remind you of your obligations under the IETF IPR rules
> which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are aware of IPR of
> others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from participating in any
> contribution or discussion related to your undisclosed IPR.  For more
> information, please see the RFCs listed above and
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty.
> 
> Thank you,
> CCAMP WG Chairs
> 
> PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in your
> response.
> 
> 

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From: Kenji Kumaki <ke-kumaki@kddi.com>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Regarding IPR on draft-ali-ccamp-xro-lsp-subobject-02
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Hi Lou,

No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft.

Thanks,
Kenji

<50BE8099.90903@labn.net> $B$N!"(B
   "Regarding IPR on draft-ali-ccamp-xro-lsp-subobject-02" $B$K$*(B
$B$$$F!"(B
   "Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>"$B$5$s$O=q$-$^$7$?!'(B

> Authors, Contributors, (CCAMP)
> 
> As part of the preparation for the poll on making this document a WG
> document:
> 
> Are you aware of any IPR that applies to
> draft-ali-ccamp-xro-lsp-subobject-02?
> 
>   Please state either:
> 
>   "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft"
>   or
>   "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft"
> 
> If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules
> (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details)?
> 
>    If yes to the above, please state either:
> 
>   "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules"
>   or
>   "No, the IPR has not been disclosed"
> 
>   If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think
>   appropriate.
> 
> If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the
> above by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are
> aware of any relevant IPR.  This document will not advance to the next
> stage until a response has been received from each author and listed
> contributor.  NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS
> MESSAGE'S TO LINES.
> 
> If you are on the CCAMP WG email list but are not listed as an author or
> contributor, we remind you of your obligations under the IETF IPR rules
> which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are aware of IPR of
> others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from participating in any
> contribution or discussion related to your undisclosed IPR.  For more
> information, please see the RFCs listed above and
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty.
> 
> Thank you,
> CCAMP WG Chairs
> 
> PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in your
> response.
> 
> 

From zhangfatai@huawei.com  Thu Dec 13 23:01:33 2012
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">Thanks, I am fine with your proposed text.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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bsp;</o:p></span></p>
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bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">Best Re=
gards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">Fatai<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=
=CE=CC=E5">=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5"> Alan Da=
vey [mailto:Alan.Davey@metaswitch.com]
<br>
</span><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=B7=A2=
=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></span></b><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5"> 2012</span><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=C4=EA<span lang=3D"EN-U=
S">12</span>=D4=C2<span lang=3D"EN-US">13</span>=C8=D5<span lang=3D"EN-US">
 23:12<br>
</span><b>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"> Fatai Zhang; Zafar Ali (zali); Matt Hartley (mhartley); draft-ietf-=
ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org<br>
</span><b>=B3=AD=CB=CD<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
> ccamp@ietf.org<br>
</span><b>=D6=F7=CC=E2<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
> RE: [CCAMP] </span>
=B4=F0=B8=B4<span lang=3D"EN-US">: A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-s=
rlg-collect-01<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:olive">Authors<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:olive"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:olive">Thank you=
 all for your feedback.&nbsp; I have clarified my proposed text and added m=
ore text to address Zafar=A1=AFs point that the SRLGs may differ in the ups=
tream and downstream directions.&nbsp; Could you please
 let me know what you think of the following.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:olive"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:olive">I suggest=
 replacing the paragraph in section 4.1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:olive"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:olive">&nbsp;&nb=
sp; =A1=B0Before the Resv message is sent to the upstream node, the tail no=
de<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:olive">&nbsp;&nb=
sp; adds an SRLG sub-object to the RRO.&nbsp; The collected SRLG informatio=
n<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:olive">&nbsp;&nb=
sp; can be carried in the SRLG sub-object.&nbsp; Therefore, during the<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:olive">&nbsp;&nb=
sp; forwarding of the Resv message in the upstream direction, the SRLG<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:olive">&nbsp;&nb=
sp; information is not needed to be collected hop by hop.=A1=B1<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:olive"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:olive">With the =
following.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:olive"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" st=
yle=3D"color:olive">=A1=B0When a node receives a Resv message for an LSP fo=
r which SRLG Collection is specified, if local policy determines that the S=
RLG information should not be provided to the
 endpoints, it MUST return a ResvErr.&nbsp; Otherwise, it MUST add an SRLG =
sub-object to the RRO to carry the SRLG information in the upstream directi=
on.&nbsp; When the Resv message arrives at the head node, the head node can=
 get the SRLG information from the RRO in
 the same way as the tail node.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:olive"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" st=
yle=3D"color:olive">Note that a link=A1=AFs SRLG information for the upstre=
am direction cannot be assumed to be the same as that in the downstream.&nb=
sp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" st=
yle=3D"color:olive"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:54.0pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:olive"><span style=
=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;=
">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:olive">F=
or Path and Resv messages for a unidirectional LSP, a node SHOULD include S=
RLG sub-objects in the RRO for the downstream data link only.<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:olive"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:54.0pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:olive"><span style=
=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;=
">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:olive">F=
or Path and Resv messages for a bidirectional LSP, a node SHOULD include SR=
LG sub-objects in the RRO for both the upstream data link and the downstrea=
m data link from the local node.&nbsp; In
 this case, the node MUST include the information in the same order for bot=
h Path messages and Resv messages.&nbsp; That is, the SRLG sub-object for t=
he upstream link is added to the RRO before the SRLG sub-object for the dow=
nstream link.=A1=B1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:54.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN=
-GB" style=3D"color:olive"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:olive">Note that=
 the existing text in section 4.1 on nodes editing SRLG information in an R=
RO already refers to both Path and Resv messages and therefore needs no cha=
nge.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:olive"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:olive">Regards<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:olive"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:olive">Alan Dave=
y<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:olive"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><i><span lang=3D"EN-GB=
" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&=
quot;;color:olive">Network Technologies</span></i><span lang=3D"EN-GB" styl=
e=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;=
color:olive"><br>
</span><b><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:navy">Metaswitch Networks<o:p></o:=
p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quo=
t;;color:olive"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" s=
tyle=3D"color:olive"><a href=3D"mailto:alan.davey@metaswitch.com"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;=
">alan.davey@metaswitch.com</span></a></span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"=
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color=
:olive"><br>
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ari=
al&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:gray">&#43;44 (0) 20 8366 1177<br>
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ari=
al&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:olive"><a href=3D"http://network-tech=
nologies.metaswitch.com/">network-technologies.metaswitch.com</a><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:olive"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:olive"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:olive"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:olive"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org=
]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Fatai Zhang<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 13 December 2012 06:59<br>
<b>To:</b> Zafar Ali (zali); Matt Hartley (mhartley); Alan Davey; draft-iet=
f-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ccamp@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [CCAMP] </span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
=CB=CE=CC=E5">=B4=F0=B8=B4</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10=
.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">: A question on=
 draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">Hi all,</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">I think the =A1=B0</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:ma=
roon">the processing... mirrors...=A1=B1
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">may ca=
use confusion or misunderstanding.
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">To Alan=
, could you provide some text to refine this sentense?</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">Best Re=
gards</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">Fatai</=
span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=
=CE=CC=E5">=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB</span></b><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">
<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
</span><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=B4=FA=
=B1=ED </span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-famil=
y:=CB=CE=CC=E5">Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
</span><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=B7=A2=
=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4</span></b><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.=
0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5"> 2012</span><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=C4=EA</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">12</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=D4=C2</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">12</span><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=C8=D5</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">
 2:01<br>
</span><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=CA=D5=
=BC=FE=C8=CB</span></b><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5"> Matt Hartley (mhartley); Alan Davey;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org">dra=
ft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
</span><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=B3=AD=
=CB=CD</span></b><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:=CB=CE=CC=E5">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">
<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp@ietf.org">ccamp@ietf.org</a><br>
</span><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=D6=F7=
=CC=E2</span></b><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:=CB=CE=CC=E5">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5"> Re: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsv=
p-te-srlg-collect-01</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-G=
B"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300">Alan:
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300">I had a=
n offline chat w/ Matt and it will be great if your proposed text can be cl=
arified based feedback from Matt/ me.
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#003300">Thanks<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#003300">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#003300">Regards=
=A1=ADZafar</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#003300">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> Matt Hartley (mhartley)
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 11, 2012 12:37 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Alan Davey; Zafar Ali (zali); <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ccamp=
-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org">
draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:ccamp@ietf.org">ccamp@ietf.org</a>; Matt Hartl=
ey (mhartley)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-col=
lect-01</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-G=
B"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">Alan,<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">&nbsp;=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">Apolog=
ies for the delay in responding on this one. Inline:</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">&nbsp;=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">I sugge=
st replacing the following paragraph in section 4.1</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" st=
yle=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;&nbsp; =A1=B0Before the Resv message is sent to=
 the upstream node, the tail node</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" st=
yle=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;&nbsp; adds an SRLG sub-object to the RRO.&nbsp=
; The collected SRLG information</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" st=
yle=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;&nbsp; can be carried in the SRLG sub-object.&n=
bsp; Therefore, during the</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" st=
yle=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;&nbsp; forwarding of the Resv message in the up=
stream direction, the SRLG</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" st=
yle=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;&nbsp; information is not needed to be collecte=
d hop by hop.=A1=B1</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">With th=
e paragraph</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" st=
yle=3D"color:#993366">=A1=B0As in the procedures defined for the processing=
 of RROs in Section 4.4.3 of RFC 3209 [RFC3209], the processing of SRLG col=
lection for Resv messages mirrors that of the
 Path messages.&nbsp; That is, each intermediate node adds an SRLG sub-obje=
ct to the RRO.=A1=B0</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">&nbsp;=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">When y=
ou say, =A1=B0the processing... mirrors...=A1=B1 I presume you mean that th=
e internal logic will be similar, rather than that the same values will
 be placed into the Resv RRO as went into the Path RRO?</span><span lang=3D=
"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">&nbsp;=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">Anyway=
, yes, I agree with the principle that the SRLGs in the Resv RRO should als=
o be collected hop-by-hop rather than copied over from the
 Path RRO at the tail. </span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">&nbsp;=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">Cheers=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">&nbsp;=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Bookman Old Style&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:maroon">Matt</=
span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">The ben=
efits of this approach are that</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-=
list:l0 level1 lfo4">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-=
<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"=
>the SRLG information received by the head and tail nodes is consistent</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-=
list:l0 level1 lfo4">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-=
<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"=
>no information is lost when the SRLG information is collected in the Resv,=
 it still includes a hop to SRLG mapping.</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">Regards=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">Alan Da=
vey</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">Netw=
ork Technologies</span></i><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><br=
>
<b>Metaswitch Networks</b></span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366"><a href=
=3D"mailto:alan.davey@metaswitch.com">alan.davey@metaswitch.com</a><br>
&#43;44 (0) 20 8366 1177<br>
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#993366"><a href=3D"http://netwo=
rk-technologies.metaswitch.com/">network-technologies.metaswitch.com</a></s=
pan><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#993366">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;">
<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 03 December 2012 17:36<br>
<b>To:</b> Alan Davey; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-coll=
ect@tools.ietf.org">
draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:ccamp@ietf.org">ccamp@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-col=
lect-01</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Alan-
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">There a=
re use cases where SRLGs for forward direction may not be same as SRLGs for=
 reverse direction. E.g., consider a use case where an associated
 non-corouted tunnel is used as an FA; forward and reverse directions may f=
ollow different paths in the network. When such FA is used as a TE link for=
 the tunnel for which SRLG recording is requested, forward and reverse SRLG=
 values would be different.
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Thanks<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Regards=
=A1=ADZafar</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;">
<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Alan Davey<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 03, 2012 12:23 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ie=
tf.org">
draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:ccamp@ietf.org">ccamp@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [CCAMP] A question on draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect=
-01</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-G=
B"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Authors<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">I have a doubt about draft-ietf=
-ccamp-rsvp-te-srlg-collect-01, specifically about the SRLG collection.&nbs=
p; Could you please let me know what you think?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">According to section 4.1, the c=
ollection of SRLG information in RROs for the Resv is different to that for=
 the Path.&nbsp; This is unlike the existing processing of RROs, which are =
handled in the same way for the upstream
 and downstream directions (as defined in RFC3209 section 4.4.3).&nbsp; Can=
 you please explain why the collection of SRLGs must be different in the di=
fferent directions?&nbsp; My preference is that SRLG information collection=
 in RROs is handled in the same way as existing
 RRO processing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Alan Davey<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><i><span lang=3D"EN-GB=
" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&=
quot;">Network Technologies</span></i><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
<b><span style=3D"color:navy">Metaswitch Networks</span></b></span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quo=
t;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><=
a href=3D"mailto:alan.davey@metaswitch.com"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">alan.davey@metaswitc=
h.com</span></a></span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
<span style=3D"color:gray">&#43;44 (0) 20 8366 1177<br>
</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"http://network-technolog=
ies.metaswitch.com/">network-technologies.metaswitch.com</a></span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2012 10:47:16 -0500
From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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Cc: ccamp@ietf.org, "draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-mpls-tp-oam-ext@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-mpls-tp-oam-ext@tools.ietf.org>, Deborah Brungard <dbrungard@att.com>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-mpls-tp-oam-ext-11.txt
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Fei,
	So I guess we should infer from your mail that you are not happy with
the resolution to your comment proposed by the authors in
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ccamp/current/msg14146.html. Is
this correct?

I didn't see any additional objections to the author's proposed changes,
so it is reasonable for them to have made the change.  You are of course
welcome to discuss it further on the list if you have an
issue/reservation with their change.

Now speaking as a contributor, I don't have strong opinion either
approach, but do think that the specific change needs some conformance
language to match the modified narrative in section 3.2. (Assuming the
author's proposed resolution continues to be accepted.)

Lou

On 12/13/2012 7:40 PM, zhang.fei3@zte.com.cn wrote:
> 
> Hi Chairmen
> 
> Does the WG have an consensus to incorporate the CV configuration
> required MPLS-TP identifiers into this draft?
> 
> If not, why this draft was updated with the corresponding information in
> section 3.3.1?
> 
> Best regards
> 
> Fei
> 
> 
> *internet-drafts@ietf.org*
> ·¢¼þÈË:  ccamp-bounces@ietf.org
> 
> 2012/12/12 22:06
> 
> 	
> ÊÕ¼þÈË
> 	i-d-announce@ietf.org
> ³­ËÍ
> 	ccamp@ietf.org
> Ö÷Ìâ
> 	[CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-mpls-tp-oam-ext-11.txt
> 
> 
> 	
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane
> Working Group of the IETF.
> 
>                 Title           : Configuration of Pro-Active
> Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) Functions for
> MPLS-based Transport Networks using RSVP-TE
>                 Author(s)       : Elisa Bellagamba
>                          Loa Andersson
>                          Pontus Skoldstrom
>                          Dave Ward
>                          Attila Takacs
>                 Filename        :
> draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-mpls-tp-oam-ext-11.txt
>                 Pages           : 21
>                 Date            : 2012-12-12
> 
> Abstract:
>   This specification describes the configuration of pro-active MPLS-TP
>   Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) Functions for a
>   given LSP using a set of TLVs that are carried by the RSVP-TE
>   protocol.
> 
>   This document is a product of a joint Internet Engineering Task Force
>   (IETF) / International Telecommunication Union Telecommunication
>   Standardization Sector (ITU-T) effort to include an MPLS Transport
>   Profile within the IETF MPLS and PWE3 architectures to support the
>   capabilities and functionalities of a packet transport network.
> 
> 
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-mpls-tp-oam-ext
> 
> There's also a htmlized version available at:
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-mpls-tp-oam-ext-11
> 
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ccamp-rsvp-te-mpls-tp-oam-ext-11
> 
> 
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> 

From zali@cisco.com  Sat Dec 15 07:09:12 2012
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From: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, "George Swallow (swallow)" <swallow@cisco.com>, "Clarence Filsfils (cfilsfil)" <cfilsfil@cisco.com>, "Matt Hartley (mhartley)" <mhartley@cisco.com>, Kenji Kumaki <ke-kumaki@kddi.com>, Rudiger Kunze <ruediger.kunze@telekom.de>, CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Regarding IPR on draft-ali-ccamp-te-metric-recording-03
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Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2012 15:09:07 +0000
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Regarding IPR on draft-ali-ccamp-te-metric-recording-03
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Hi Lou, et al-=20

Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft.
No, the IPR has not been disclosed but it's a work in progress.=20

Thanks

Regards...Zafar


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2012 6:01 PM
> To: Zafar Ali (zali); George Swallow (swallow); Clarence Filsfils (cfilsf=
il); Matt Hartley (mhartley);
> Kenji Kumaki; Rudiger Kunze; CCAMP
> Subject: Regarding IPR on draft-ali-ccamp-te-metric-recording-03
>=20
> Authors, Contributors, (CCAMP)
>=20
> As part of the preparation for the poll on making this document a WG
> document:
>=20
> Are you aware of any IPR that applies to draft-ali-ccamp-te-metric-record=
ing-03?
>=20
>   Please state either:
>=20
>   "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft"
>   or
>   "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft"
>=20
> If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see=
 RFCs 3979, 4879,
> 3669 and 5378 for more details)?
>=20
>    If yes to the above, please state either:
>=20
>   "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules"
>   or
>   "No, the IPR has not been disclosed"
>=20
>   If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think
>   appropriate.
>=20
> If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the a=
bove by responding to
> this email regardless of whether or not you are aware of any relevant IPR=
.  This document will not
> advance to the next stage until a response has been received from each au=
thor and listed
> contributor.  NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS MESSAGE'S T=
O
> LINES.
>=20
> If you are on the CCAMP WG email list but are not listed as an author or =
contributor, we remind
> you of your obligations under the IETF IPR rules which encourages you to =
notify the IETF if you
> are aware of IPR of others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from pa=
rticipating in any
> contribution or discussion related to your undisclosed IPR.  For more inf=
ormation, please see the
> RFCs listed above and http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/Int=
ellectualProperty.
>=20
> Thank you,
> CCAMP WG Chairs
>=20
> PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in your respo=
nse.


From lberger@labn.net  Sat Dec 15 07:25:04 2012
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From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, "George Swallow (swallow)" <swallow@cisco.com>, "Clarence Filsfils (cfilsfil)" <cfilsfil@cisco.com>, "Matt Hartley (mhartley)" <mhartley@cisco.com>, Kenji Kumaki <ke-kumaki@kddi.com>, Rudiger Kunze <ruediger.kunze@telekom.de>, CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2012 10:24:36 -0500
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Regarding IPR on draft-ali-ccamp-te-metric-recording-03
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Zafar,

Just a question for clarification, does "a work in progress" mean that 
the disclosure is in process, that the IPR is still being documented, 
or something completely different ?

Thanks,

 Lou



On December 15, 2012 10:09:07 AM "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com> wrote:
> Hi Lou, et al-
>
> Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft.
> No, the IPR has not been disclosed but it's a work in progress.
>
> Thanks
>
> Regards...Zafar
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2012 6:01 PM
> > To: Zafar Ali (zali); George Swallow (swallow); Clarence Filsfils 
> (cfilsfil); Matt Hartley (mhartley);
> > Kenji Kumaki; Rudiger Kunze; CCAMP
> > Subject: Regarding IPR on draft-ali-ccamp-te-metric-recording-03
> >
> > Authors, Contributors, (CCAMP)
> >
> > As part of the preparation for the poll on making this document a WG
> > document:
> >
> > Are you aware of any IPR that applies to 
> draft-ali-ccamp-te-metric-recording-03?
> >
> >   Please state either:
> >
> >   "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft"
> >   or
> >   "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft"
> >
> > If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules 
> (see RFCs 3979, 4879,
> > 3669 and 5378 for more details)?
> >
> >    If yes to the above, please state either:
> >
> >   "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules"
> >   or
> >   "No, the IPR has not been disclosed"
> >
> >   If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think
> >   appropriate.
> >
> > If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer 
> the above by responding to
> > this email regardless of whether or not you are aware of any relevant 
> IPR.  This document will not
> > advance to the next stage until a response has been received from 
> each author and listed
> > contributor.  NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS MESSAGE'S TO
> > LINES.
> >
> > If you are on the CCAMP WG email list but are not listed as an author 
> or contributor, we remind
> > you of your obligations under the IETF IPR rules which encourages you 
> to notify the IETF if you
> > are aware of IPR of others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain 
> from participating in any
> > contribution or discussion related to your undisclosed IPR.  For more 
> information, please see the
> > RFCs listed above and 
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty.
> >
> > Thank you,
> > CCAMP WG Chairs
> >
> > PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in your response.
>
>



From zali@cisco.com  Sat Dec 15 07:34:27 2012
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From: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, "George Swallow (swallow)" <swallow@cisco.com>, "Clarence Filsfils (cfilsfil)" <cfilsfil@cisco.com>, "Matt Hartley (mhartley)" <mhartley@cisco.com>, Kenji Kumaki <ke-kumaki@kddi.com>, Rudiger Kunze <ruediger.kunze@telekom.de>, CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Regarding IPR on draft-ali-ccamp-te-metric-recording-03
Thread-Index: AQHN0nMuO7pIcuFJkkCRmuRB33QAlZgZMP3wgAE/RgD//53+kA==
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2012 15:34:24 +0000
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References: <50BE8093.7090800@labn.net> <B6585D85A128FD47857D0FD58D8120D3B001CF@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <13b9f2ab7fa.2764.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Regarding IPR on draft-ali-ccamp-te-metric-recording-03
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Hi Lou-=20

Yes, the IPR is still being documented.=20

Thanks

Regards...Zafar

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2012 10:25 AM
> To: Zafar Ali (zali); George Swallow (swallow); Clarence Filsfils (cfilsf=
il); Matt Hartley (mhartley);
> Kenji Kumaki; Rudiger Kunze; CCAMP
> Subject: RE: Regarding IPR on draft-ali-ccamp-te-metric-recording-03
>=20
> Zafar,
>=20
> Just a question for clarification, does "a work in progress" mean that th=
e disclosure is in process,
> that the IPR is still being documented, or something completely different=
 ?
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
>  Lou
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On December 15, 2012 10:09:07 AM "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com> wrot=
e:
> > Hi Lou, et al-
> >
> > Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft.
> > No, the IPR has not been disclosed but it's a work in progress.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Regards...Zafar
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2012 6:01 PM
> > > To: Zafar Ali (zali); George Swallow (swallow); Clarence Filsfils
> > (cfilsfil); Matt Hartley (mhartley);
> > > Kenji Kumaki; Rudiger Kunze; CCAMP
> > > Subject: Regarding IPR on draft-ali-ccamp-te-metric-recording-03
> > >
> > > Authors, Contributors, (CCAMP)
> > >
> > > As part of the preparation for the poll on making this document a WG
> > > document:
> > >
> > > Are you aware of any IPR that applies to
> > draft-ali-ccamp-te-metric-recording-03?
> > >
> > >   Please state either:
> > >
> > >   "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft"
> > >   or
> > >   "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft"
> > >
> > > If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules
> > (see RFCs 3979, 4879,
> > > 3669 and 5378 for more details)?
> > >
> > >    If yes to the above, please state either:
> > >
> > >   "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules"
> > >   or
> > >   "No, the IPR has not been disclosed"
> > >
> > >   If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think
> > >   appropriate.
> > >
> > > If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer
> > the above by responding to
> > > this email regardless of whether or not you are aware of any
> > > relevant
> > IPR.  This document will not
> > > advance to the next stage until a response has been received from
> > each author and listed
> > > contributor.  NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS
> > > MESSAGE'S TO LINES.
> > >
> > > If you are on the CCAMP WG email list but are not listed as an
> > > author
> > or contributor, we remind
> > > you of your obligations under the IETF IPR rules which encourages
> > > you
> > to notify the IETF if you
> > > are aware of IPR of others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain
> > from participating in any
> > > contribution or discussion related to your undisclosed IPR.  For
> > > more
> > information, please see the
> > > RFCs listed above and
> > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty.
> > >
> > > Thank you,
> > > CCAMP WG Chairs
> > >
> > > PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in your r=
esponse.
> >
> >
>=20


From zali@cisco.com  Sat Dec 15 08:06:07 2012
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From: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, "George Swallow (swallow)" <swallow@cisco.com>, "Clarence Filsfils (cfilsfil)" <cfilsfil@cisco.com>, "Matt Hartley (mhartley)" <mhartley@cisco.com>, "Ori Gerstel (ogerstel)" <ogerstel@cisco.com>, "Gabriele Maria Galimberti (ggalimbe)" <ggalimbe@cisco.com>, Kenji Kumaki <ke-kumaki@kddi.com>, Rudiger Kunze <Ruediger.Kunze@telekom.de>, Julien Meuric <julien.meuric@orange.com>
Thread-Topic: Regarding IPR on draft-ali-ccamp-xro-lsp-subobject-02
Thread-Index: Ac3a3hHWeRigtQMvQR+SyhHK2Tn0pQ==
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2012 16:06:03 +0000
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Regarding IPR on draft-ali-ccamp-xro-lsp-subobject-02
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Hi Lou, et al-=20

Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft.
Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules . Please =
see https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/1943/=20

Thanks

Regards...Zafar

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2012 6:01 PM
> To: Zafar Ali (zali); George Swallow (swallow); Clarence Filsfils (cfilsf=
il); Matt Hartley (mhartley);
> Ori Gerstel (ogerstel); Gabriele Maria Galimberti (ggalimbe); Kenji Kumak=
i; Rudiger Kunze; Julien
> Meuric
> Cc: CCAMP
> Subject: Regarding IPR on draft-ali-ccamp-xro-lsp-subobject-02
>=20
> Authors, Contributors, (CCAMP)
>=20
> As part of the preparation for the poll on making this document a WG
> document:
>=20
> Are you aware of any IPR that applies to draft-ali-ccamp-xro-lsp-subobjec=
t-02?
>=20
>   Please state either:
>=20
>   "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft"
>   or
>   "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft"
>=20
> If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see=
 RFCs 3979, 4879,
> 3669 and 5378 for more details)?
>=20
>    If yes to the above, please state either:
>=20
>   "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules"
>   or
>   "No, the IPR has not been disclosed"
>=20
>   If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think
>   appropriate.
>=20
> If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the a=
bove by responding to
> this email regardless of whether or not you are aware of any relevant IPR=
.  This document will not
> advance to the next stage until a response has been received from each au=
thor and listed
> contributor.  NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS MESSAGE'S T=
O
> LINES.
>=20
> If you are on the CCAMP WG email list but are not listed as an author or =
contributor, we remind
> you of your obligations under the IETF IPR rules which encourages you to =
notify the IETF if you
> are aware of IPR of others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from pa=
rticipating in any
> contribution or discussion related to your undisclosed IPR.  For more inf=
ormation, please see the
> RFCs listed above and http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/Int=
ellectualProperty.
>=20
> Thank you,
> CCAMP WG Chairs
>=20
> PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in your respo=
nse.


From ggalimbe@cisco.com  Mon Dec 17 00:27:40 2012
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From: "Gabriele Maria Galimberti (ggalimbe)" <ggalimbe@cisco.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, "George Swallow (swallow)" <swallow@cisco.com>, "Clarence Filsfils (cfilsfil)" <cfilsfil@cisco.com>, "Matt Hartley (mhartley)" <mhartley@cisco.com>, "Ori Gerstel (ogerstel)" <ogerstel@cisco.com>, "Kenji Kumaki" <ke-kumaki@kddi.com>, Rudiger Kunze <Ruediger.Kunze@telekom.de>, Julien Meuric <julien.meuric@orange.com>
Thread-Topic: Regarding IPR on draft-ali-ccamp-xro-lsp-subobject-02
Thread-Index: AQHN0nMxzs6+QbXHsUieJ5BWZRVETJgdMS2A
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 08:27:37 +0000
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Regarding IPR on draft-ali-ccamp-xro-lsp-subobject-02
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Hi Lou,


Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft.

The IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules, see:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/1943/


Best Regards,=20

Gabriele





Gabriele Galimberti
Technical Leader
Cisco Photonics Srl


Via Philips, 12
20900 - Monza (MI)
Italy
www.cisco.com/global/IT/ <http://www.cisco.com/global/IT/>

ggalimbe@cisco.com
Phone :+39 039 2091462
Mobile :+39 335 7481947
Fax :+39 039 2092049
















On 12/5/12 12:00 AM, "Lou Berger" <lberger@labn.net> wrote:

>Authors, Contributors, (CCAMP)
>
>As part of the preparation for the poll on making this document a WG
>document:
>
>Are you aware of any IPR that applies to
>draft-ali-ccamp-xro-lsp-subobject-02?
>
>  Please state either:
>
>  "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft"
>  or
>  "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft"
>
>If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules
>(see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details)?
>
>   If yes to the above, please state either:
>
>  "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules"
>  or
>  "No, the IPR has not been disclosed"
>
>  If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think
>  appropriate.
>
>If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the
>above by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are
>aware of any relevant IPR.  This document will not advance to the next
>stage until a response has been received from each author and listed
>contributor.  NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS
>MESSAGE'S TO LINES.
>
>If you are on the CCAMP WG email list but are not listed as an author or
>contributor, we remind you of your obligations under the IETF IPR rules
>which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are aware of IPR of
>others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from participating in any
>contribution or discussion related to your undisclosed IPR.  For more
>information, please see the RFCs listed above and
>http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty.
>
>Thank you,
>CCAMP WG Chairs
>
>PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in your
>response.
>


From giomarti@cisco.com  Mon Dec 17 00:38:52 2012
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From: "Giovanni Martinelli (giomarti)" <giomarti@cisco.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] poll on making draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a	WG document
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] poll on making	draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a	WG document
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yes/support

cheers
G (co-author)

On Dec 7, 2012, at 21:48 , Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net> wrote:

> All,
>=20
> This is to start a two week poll on making
> draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a ccamp working
> group document. Please send mail to the list indicating "yes/support"
> or "no/do not support".  If indicating no, please state your technical
> reservations with the document.
>=20
> The poll ends Friday December 21.
>=20
> Much thanks,
> Lou (and Deborah)
>=20
> PS We're still waiting on one IPR statement.
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp


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From daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com  Mon Dec 17 03:17:13 2012
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From: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
To: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Overlay model framework and context
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Subject: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Dear CCAMPers,

In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the Overlay model framewo=
rk and related works took place. Some discussions led to some sort of agree=
met among a small group of people, some others to a set a viable options, s=
ome others to totally open issues. I tried to summarize the output of such =
discussions below so to progress the discussions into a single thread on th=
e WG ML.

Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a well shaped and c=
onclusive idea to the WG but rather to provide the basis for starting a dis=
cussion from a barely shaped idea (step 1) instead of starting it from scra=
tch (step 0).

In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a proposal of the overl=
ay scenario.

Thanks,
Daniele

+ Disclaimer:
 1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work can be extente=
d to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.

+ Terminology:

 1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between two virtual or=
 real network elements in a client layer network  that is maintained/contro=
lled in and by the server domain control plane (and as such cannot transpor=
t any traffic/data and protected from being de-provisioned) and which can b=
e instantiated in the data plane (and then can carry/transport/forward traf=
fic/data) preserving previously advertised attributes such as fate sharing =
information.
 2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or more server netw=
ork  domain nodes that are collectively represented to the clients as a sin=
gle node that exists in the client layer network and is capable of terminat=
ing of access, inter-domain and virtual links.
 3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one or more virtua=
l or real server network domain nodes that exist in the client layer networ=
k and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual links.
 4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies provided by each=
 of server network domains, access and inter-domain links.
 5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that link. It can su=
pport any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
 6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208 teminology  but=
 (i) receiving virtual topology from the core  network and requesting the s=
et up of one of them or (ii) requesting the computation and establishment o=
f a path accordingly to gien constraints in the core network and receiving =
the parameters characterizing such path. (ii) =3D=3D UNI.
 7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but able to deal wi=
th (i) and (ii) above.
 8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for signaling and r=
outing messages exchange between Overlay and Core network. Routing informat=
ion consists on virtual topology advertisement. When there is no routing ad=
jacency across the interface it is equivalent to the GMPLS UNI defined in 4=
208. Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information related to =
path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected SRLG, path delay etc, eith=
er passed from OE to OC via signaling after the LSP establishment in the co=
re network or from OC to OE to be used as path computation constraints, fal=
l under the definition of signaling info and not routing info).
 9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the links between d=
ifferent core networks in the overlay model environment, i.e. Between borde=
r OEs. Same features of the ONI apply to this interface. Could it be an E-N=
NI? A ONI? A new name is needed?

+ Statements
 1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build an overlay topol=
ogy for the client network domains
 2. The overlay topology is comprised of:
    a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the server network doma=
ins). They can be PSC or LSC.
    b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server network domains)  =
=20
    c) virtual topology provided by the server network domains. Virtual Lin=
ks + Virtual Nodes (TBD) + Connectivity Matrix (with a set of parameters e.=
g. SRLG, optical impairments, delay etc for each entry) describing connecti=
vity between access links and virtual links.
 3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy  of overlay topolo=
gies with overlay/underlay relationships
 4. In the context of overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relation=
ships are peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network integratio=
n=20
 5. The overlay model assumes one instance for the client network and a sep=
arate instance for the server network and in the ONI case the server networ=
k also surreptitiously participates in the client network by injecting virt=
ual topology information into it.
 6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over the ONI (it fal=
ls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency is in place between OC and OE=
).

+ Open issues/questions
=20
 1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about PCE and PCEP into=
 the overlay framework context?
 2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
 3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?

+ Appendix:
Some notes on the Virtual Node:
1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale because of N**2 pro=
blem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs have the same issue, that's why pe=
ople invented multi-segment PWs
2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is by having inter=
mediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the middle of the virtual to=
pology
3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain switches, bec=
ause, generally speaking:
  a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
  b)Real switches are named from different naming space
  c)real switches individually may not have sufficient resources to termina=
te virtual links (while a group of real switches collectively will have)
  d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual node have bette=
r scalability qualities
4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real node, you need to k=
eep in mind that real server domain switches are, generally speaking, block=
ing switches and as such must expose their connectivity matrices
5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could potentially g=
o through a real server domain switch, the latter's connectivity matrix mus=
t expose "internal" SRLGs, so that the two services traversing the switch w=
ill not simultaneously fail if a single internal element shared by the serv=
ices fails
6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be addressed when you ar=
e traffic engineering topologies with blocking switches, you will understan=
d that there is absolutely no difference between a virtual node and real bl=
ocking real node.
7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected to server netwo=
rk domain must be upgraded so that they could understand the connectivity m=
atrices advertised by the border nodes describing connectivity constraints =
between access links and virtual links they terminate.


=20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
DANIELE CECCARELLI =20
System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro=20

Via E.Melen, 77
Genova, Italy
Phone +390106002512
Mobile +393346725750
daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
www.ericsson.com =20

This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive email on the b=
asis of the term set out at www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer =20


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From ggrammel@juniper.net  Mon Dec 17 05:27:50 2012
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From: Gert Grammel <ggrammel@juniper.net>
To: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>, CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 13:27:01 +0000
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Daniele,

Thank you for summarizing the current state of discussion. To move forward =
and to encourage comments, let me point to some of the issues that are deba=
ted:

1) Virtual Link: in the terminology statement a virtual link seems to conne=
ct two client elements. However later on the 3) virtual topology is compose=
d of access links and virtual links. Hence. Virtual links connect server no=
des, not client nodes. By doing so, segments (AL and VL) are created.
2) The scalability consideration in the appendix for VL is based on termino=
logy 1) rather than on virtual topology 3). This way it doesn't describe th=
en the  scalability of a virtual topology (which doesn't necessitate a full=
 mesh) but rather that of a virtual node (which implies a full connectivity=
 matrix).

To sum up:
1) we have to come up with a crisp definition of a VL in a virtual topology=
 that is different from a terminology 1) VL. Here is a gap
2) A Model based on a vitual node or 'terminology 1) links' create n**2 pro=
blems on client side and does not scale.
3) 'VNT'-virtual-links 3) and access links are supposed to address the scal=
ing problem. We need to clean up our terminology. Otherwise we end up assoc=
iating limitations of terminology 1) links with VNT-links that address thos=
e limitations.

Now looking at the appendix it sadly reflects the terminology confusion and=
 jumps to assessment and conclusions. That's unfortunate:

The first line says:
Some notes on the Virtual Node:
1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly,
--> is it now about virtual nodes or virtual links or VNT links?
2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is by having inter=
mediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the middle of the virtual to=
pology
--> that's why access links are so useful. They end at server nodes which a=
re connected via virtual links
3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain switches, bec=
ause, generally speaking:
--> in case of VNT-VLs no intermediate nodes are necessarily required
4.  --> No need to comment, this way doesn't scale anyway.
5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could potentially g=
o through a real server domain switch, the latter's connectivity matrix mus=
t expose "internal" SRLGs, so that the two services traversing the switch w=
ill not simultaneously fail if a single internal element shared by the serv=
ices fails
--> who is 'you' that computes? A client selects among VNT virtual links ba=
sed on exposed SRLGs, VLs are computed by the server with full knowledge of=
 constraints. So what does an 'internal' SRLG mean to a server path computa=
tion?
6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be addressed when you ar=
e traffic engineering topologies with blocking switches, you will understan=
d that there is absolutely no difference between a virtual node and real bl=
ocking real node.
--> I suggest to model a complete network of say 5 nodes in a single VN and=
 compare it with the model of a single real node.

--> The assessments made have used a terminology definition that doesn't re=
ally capture the case made for VNT-VLs.
That's why I would have had appreciated to split definitions and work items=
 agreed among a group from individual assessments in separate emails.
Nevertheless I consider the first part of your email (all except the append=
ix) as a good starting point for further clarification.

Gert
________________________________________
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Daniele Ceccarelli
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 12:17:08 PM
To: CCAMP
Subject: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context

Dear CCAMPers,

In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the Overlay model framewo=
rk and related works took place. Some discussions led to some sort of agree=
met among a small group of people, some others to a set a viable options, s=
ome others to totally open issues. I tried to summarize the output of such =
discussions below so to progress the discussions into a single thread on th=
e WG ML.

Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a well shaped and c=
onclusive idea to the WG but rather to provide the basis for starting a dis=
cussion from a barely shaped idea (step 1) instead of starting it from scra=
tch (step 0).

In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a proposal of the overl=
ay scenario.

Thanks,
Daniele

+ Disclaimer:
 1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work can be extente=
d to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.

+ Terminology:

 1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between two virtual or=
 real network elements in a client layer network  that is maintained/contro=
lled in and by the server domain control plane (and as such cannot transpor=
t any traffic/data and protected from being de-provisioned) and which can b=
e instantiated in the data plane (and then can carry/transport/forward traf=
fic/data) preserving previously advertised attributes such as fate sharing =
information.
 2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or more server netw=
ork  domain nodes that are collectively represented to the clients as a sin=
gle node that exists in the client layer network and is capable of terminat=
ing of access, inter-domain and virtual links.
 3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one or more virtua=
l or real server network domain nodes that exist in the client layer networ=
k and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual links.
 4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies provided by each=
 of server network domains, access and inter-domain links.
 5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that link. It can su=
pport any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
 6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208 teminology  but=
 (i) receiving virtual topology from the core  network and requesting the s=
et up of one of them or (ii) requesting the computation and establishment o=
f a path accordingly to gien constraints in the core network and receiving =
the parameters characterizing such path. (ii) =3D=3D UNI.
 7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but able to deal wi=
th (i) and (ii) above.
 8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for signaling and r=
outing messages exchange between Overlay and Core network. Routing informat=
ion consists on virtual topology advertisement. When there is no routing ad=
jacency across the interface it is equivalent to the GMPLS UNI defined in 4=
208. Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information related to =
path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected SRLG, path delay etc, eith=
er passed from OE to OC via signaling after the LSP establishment in the co=
re network or from OC to OE to be used as path computation constraints, fal=
l under the definition of signaling info and not routing info).
 9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the links between d=
ifferent core networks in the overlay model environment, i.e. Between borde=
r OEs. Same features of the ONI apply to this interface. Could it be an E-N=
NI? A ONI? A new name is needed?

+ Statements
 1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build an overlay topol=
ogy for the client network domains
 2. The overlay topology is comprised of:
    a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the server network doma=
ins). They can be PSC or LSC.
    b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server network domains)
    c) virtual topology provided by the server network domains. Virtual Lin=
ks + Virtual Nodes (TBD) + Connectivity Matrix (with a set of parameters e.=
g. SRLG, optical impairments, delay etc for each entry) describing connecti=
vity between access links and virtual links.
 3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy  of overlay topolo=
gies with overlay/underlay relationships
 4. In the context of overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relation=
ships are peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network integratio=
n
 5. The overlay model assumes one instance for the client network and a sep=
arate instance for the server network and in the ONI case the server networ=
k also surreptitiously participates in the client network by injecting virt=
ual topology information into it.
 6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over the ONI (it fal=
ls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency is in place between OC and OE=
).

+ Open issues/questions

 1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about PCE and PCEP into=
 the overlay framework context?
 2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
 3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?

+ Appendix:
Some notes on the Virtual Node:
1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale because of N**2 pro=
blem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs have the same issue, that's why pe=
ople invented multi-segment PWs
2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is by having inter=
mediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the middle of the virtual to=
pology
3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain switches, bec=
ause, generally speaking:
  a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
  b)Real switches are named from different naming space
  c)real switches individually may not have sufficient resources to termina=
te virtual links (while a group of real switches collectively will have)
  d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual node have bette=
r scalability qualities
4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real node, you need to k=
eep in mind that real server domain switches are, generally speaking, block=
ing switches and as such must expose their connectivity matrices
5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could potentially g=
o through a real server domain switch, the latter's connectivity matrix mus=
t expose "internal" SRLGs, so that the two services traversing the switch w=
ill not simultaneously fail if a single internal element shared by the serv=
ices fails
6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be addressed when you ar=
e traffic engineering topologies with blocking switches, you will understan=
d that there is absolutely no difference between a virtual node and real bl=
ocking real node.
7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected to server netwo=
rk domain must be upgraded so that they could understand the connectivity m=
atrices advertised by the border nodes describing connectivity constraints =
between access links and virtual links they terminate.



=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
DANIELE CECCARELLI
System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro

Via E.Melen, 77
Genova, Italy
Phone +390106002512
Mobile +393346725750
daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
www.ericsson.com

This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive email on the b=
asis of the term set out at www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer



From daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com  Mon Dec 17 06:13:22 2012
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From: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
To: Gert Grammel <ggrammel@juniper.net>, CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Hi Gert,

Excellent catch. I totally missed it.

Then we have two options for Virtual links definition...but thinking a litt=
le bit more of it, there are actually 3 of them.

OC1                               OC2
  \    +---+IF2       IF3+---+    /
   \IF1|OE1|-------------|OE2|IF4/
       +---+             +---+

A) Virtual link is from OC1 to OC2
B) Virtual link is from IF1 to IF4
C) Virtual link is from IF2 to IF3

Defining the virtual link as from IF2 to IF3 would need also to include the=
 connectivity matrices of OE1 and OE2, while from IF1 to IF4 would remove t=
he need for them as the information related to the connectivity matrix is a=
lready implied into the virtual link. Am i missing something?

What would you suggest as the more reasonable definition?

Cheers,
Daniele


>-----Original Message-----
>From: Gert Grammel [mailto:ggrammel@juniper.net]=20
>Sent: luned=EC 17 dicembre 2012 14.27
>To: Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP
>Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>Daniele,
>
>Thank you for summarizing the current state of discussion. To=20
>move forward and to encourage comments, let me point to some=20
>of the issues that are debated:
>
>1) Virtual Link: in the terminology statement a virtual link=20
>seems to connect two client elements. However later on the 3)=20
>virtual topology is composed of access links and virtual=20
>links. Hence. Virtual links connect server nodes, not client=20
>nodes. By doing so, segments (AL and VL) are created.
>2) The scalability consideration in the appendix for VL is=20
>based on terminology 1) rather than on virtual topology 3).=20
>This way it doesn't describe then the  scalability of a=20
>virtual topology (which doesn't necessitate a full mesh) but=20
>rather that of a virtual node (which implies a full=20
>connectivity matrix).
>
>To sum up:
>1) we have to come up with a crisp definition of a VL in a=20
>virtual topology that is different from a terminology 1) VL.=20
>Here is a gap
>2) A Model based on a vitual node or 'terminology 1) links'=20
>create n**2 problems on client side and does not scale.
>3) 'VNT'-virtual-links 3) and access links are supposed to=20
>address the scaling problem. We need to clean up our=20
>terminology. Otherwise we end up associating limitations of=20
>terminology 1) links with VNT-links that address those limitations.
>
>Now looking at the appendix it sadly reflects the terminology=20
>confusion and jumps to assessment and conclusions. That's unfortunate:
>
>The first line says:
>Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly,
>--> is it now about virtual nodes or virtual links or VNT links?
>2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is by=20
>having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the=20
>middle of the virtual topology
>--> that's why access links are so useful. They end at server nodes=20
>--> which are connected via virtual links
>3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain=20
>switches, because, generally speaking:
>--> in case of VNT-VLs no intermediate nodes are necessarily required
>4.  --> No need to comment, this way doesn't scale anyway.
>5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could=20
>potentially go through a real server domain switch, the=20
>latter's connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so=20
>that the two services traversing the switch will not=20
>simultaneously fail if a single internal element shared by the=20
>services fails
>--> who is 'you' that computes? A client selects among VNT=20
>virtual links based on exposed SRLGs, VLs are computed by the=20
>server with full knowledge of constraints. So what does an=20
>'internal' SRLG mean to a server path computation?
>6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be=20
>addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with=20
>blocking switches, you will understand that there is=20
>absolutely no difference between a virtual node and real=20
>blocking real node.
>--> I suggest to model a complete network of say 5 nodes in a=20
>single VN and compare it with the model of a single real node.
>
>--> The assessments made have used a terminology definition=20
>that doesn't really capture the case made for VNT-VLs.
>That's why I would have had appreciated to split definitions=20
>and work items agreed among a group from individual=20
>assessments in separate emails.
>Nevertheless I consider the first part of your email (all=20
>except the appendix) as a good starting point for further=20
>clarification.
>
>Gert
>________________________________________
>From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Daniele Ceccarelli
>Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 12:17:08 PM
>To: CCAMP
>Subject: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>Dear CCAMPers,
>
>In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the Overlay=20
>model framework and related works took place. Some discussions=20
>led to some sort of agreemet among a small group of people,=20
>some others to a set a viable options, some others to totally=20
>open issues. I tried to summarize the output of such=20
>discussions below so to progress the discussions into a single=20
>thread on the WG ML.
>
>Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a well=20
>shaped and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to provide the=20
>basis for starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea=20
>(step 1) instead of starting it from scratch (step 0).
>
>In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a proposal=20
>of the overlay scenario.
>
>Thanks,
>Daniele
>
>+ Disclaimer:
> 1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work=20
>can be extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.
>
>+ Terminology:
>
> 1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between=20
>two virtual or real network elements in a client layer network=20
> that is maintained/controlled in and by the server domain=20
>control plane (and as such cannot transport any traffic/data=20
>and protected from being de-provisioned) and which can be=20
>instantiated in the data plane (and then can=20
>carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving previously=20
>advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.
> 2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or=20
>more server network  domain nodes that are collectively=20
>represented to the clients as a single node that exists in the=20
>client layer network and is capable of terminating of access,=20
>inter-domain and virtual links.
> 3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one=20
>or more virtual or real server network domain nodes that exist=20
>in the client layer network and are interconnected via 0 or=20
>more virtual links.
> 4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies=20
>provided by each of server network domains, access and=20
>inter-domain links.
> 5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that=20
>link. It can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
> 6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208=20
>teminology  but (i) receiving virtual topology from the core =20
>network and requesting the set up of one of them or (ii)=20
>requesting the computation and establishment of a path=20
>accordingly to gien constraints in the core network and=20
>receiving the parameters characterizing such path. (ii) =3D=3D UNI.
> 7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but=20
>able to deal with (i) and (ii) above.
> 8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for=20
>signaling and routing messages exchange between Overlay and=20
>Core network. Routing information consists on virtual topology=20
>advertisement. When there is no routing adjacency across the=20
>interface it is equivalent to the GMPLS UNI defined in 4208.=20
>Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information=20
>related to path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected=20
>SRLG, path delay etc, either passed from OE to OC via=20
>signaling after the LSP establishment in the core network or=20
>from OC to OE to be used as path computation constraints, fall=20
>under the definition of signaling info and not routing info).
> 9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the=20
>links between different core networks in the overlay model=20
>environment, i.e. Between border OEs. Same features of the ONI=20
>apply to this interface. Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new=20
>name is needed?
>
>+ Statements
> 1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build an=20
>overlay topology for the client network domains  2. The=20
>overlay topology is comprised of:
>    a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the server=20
>network domains). They can be PSC or LSC.
>    b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server=20
>network domains)
>    c) virtual topology provided by the server network=20
>domains. Virtual Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) + Connectivity=20
>Matrix (with a set of parameters e.g. SRLG, optical=20
>impairments, delay etc for each entry) describing connectivity=20
>between access links and virtual links.
> 3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy  of=20
>overlay topologies with overlay/underlay relationships  4. In=20
>the context of overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer=20
>relationships are peripheral at best, it is all about=20
>horizontal network integration  5. The overlay model assumes=20
>one instance for the client network and a separate instance=20
>for the server network and in the ONI case the server network=20
>also surreptitiously participates in the client network by=20
>injecting virtual topology information into it.
> 6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over=20
>the ONI (it falls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency=20
>is in place between OC and OE).
>
>+ Open issues/questions
>
> 1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about PCE=20
>and PCEP into the overlay framework context?
> 2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
> 3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?
>
>+ Appendix:
>Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale=20
>because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs=20
>have the same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs
>2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is by=20
>having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the=20
>middle of the virtual topology
>3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain=20
>switches, because, generally speaking:
>  a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
>  b)Real switches are named from different naming space
>  c)real switches individually may not have sufficient=20
>resources to terminate virtual links (while a group of real=20
>switches collectively will have)
>  d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual=20
>node have better scalability qualities
>4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real node,=20
>you need to keep in mind that real server domain switches are,=20
>generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must expose=20
>their connectivity matrices
>5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could=20
>potentially go through a real server domain switch, the=20
>latter's connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so=20
>that the two services traversing the switch will not=20
>simultaneously fail if a single internal element shared by the=20
>services fails
>6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be=20
>addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with=20
>blocking switches, you will understand that there is=20
>absolutely no difference between a virtual node and real=20
>blocking real node.
>7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected to=20
>server network domain must be upgraded so that they could=20
>understand the connectivity matrices advertised by the border=20
>nodes describing connectivity constraints between access links=20
>and virtual links they terminate.
>
>
>
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>DANIELE CECCARELLI
>System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro
>
>Via E.Melen, 77
>Genova, Italy
>Phone +390106002512
>Mobile +393346725750
>daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>www.ericsson.com
>
>This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive=20
>email on the basis of the term set out at=20
>www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer
>
>
>=

From ggrammel@juniper.net  Mon Dec 17 06:37:23 2012
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From: Gert Grammel <ggrammel@juniper.net>
To: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>, CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 14:34:27 +0000
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Honestly,

If there are three ways of doing it, I first would like to define 3 unambig=
uous terms to name them.
After that we can decide what makes most sense.
A) doesn't look scalable
B) is better but still creates tons of links
C) scales best but connectivity needs to be taken into account.

If we name A "virtual client link" VCL, then B could be a "virtual attachme=
nt link" VAL and C a "virtual topological link" VTL.

Gert



________________________________________
From: Daniele Ceccarelli
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 3:13:14 PM
To: Gert Grammel; CCAMP
Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context

Hi Gert,

Excellent catch. I totally missed it.

Then we have two options for Virtual links definition...but thinking a litt=
le bit more of it, there are actually 3 of them.

OC1                               OC2
  \    +---+IF2       IF3+---+    /
   \IF1|OE1|-------------|OE2|IF4/
       +---+             +---+

A) Virtual link is from OC1 to OC2
B) Virtual link is from IF1 to IF4
C) Virtual link is from IF2 to IF3

Defining the virtual link as from IF2 to IF3 would need also to include the=
 connectivity matrices of OE1 and OE2, while from IF1 to IF4 would remove t=
he need for them as the information related to the connectivity matrix is a=
lready implied into the virtual link. Am i missing something?

What would you suggest as the more reasonable definition?

Cheers,
Daniele


>-----Original Message-----
>From: Gert Grammel [mailto:ggrammel@juniper.net]
>Sent: luned=EC 17 dicembre 2012 14.27
>To: Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP
>Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>Daniele,
>
>Thank you for summarizing the current state of discussion. To
>move forward and to encourage comments, let me point to some
>of the issues that are debated:
>
>1) Virtual Link: in the terminology statement a virtual link
>seems to connect two client elements. However later on the 3)
>virtual topology is composed of access links and virtual
>links. Hence. Virtual links connect server nodes, not client
>nodes. By doing so, segments (AL and VL) are created.
>2) The scalability consideration in the appendix for VL is
>based on terminology 1) rather than on virtual topology 3).
>This way it doesn't describe then the  scalability of a
>virtual topology (which doesn't necessitate a full mesh) but
>rather that of a virtual node (which implies a full
>connectivity matrix).
>
>To sum up:
>1) we have to come up with a crisp definition of a VL in a
>virtual topology that is different from a terminology 1) VL.
>Here is a gap
>2) A Model based on a vitual node or 'terminology 1) links'
>create n**2 problems on client side and does not scale.
>3) 'VNT'-virtual-links 3) and access links are supposed to
>address the scaling problem. We need to clean up our
>terminology. Otherwise we end up associating limitations of
>terminology 1) links with VNT-links that address those limitations.
>
>Now looking at the appendix it sadly reflects the terminology
>confusion and jumps to assessment and conclusions. That's unfortunate:
>
>The first line says:
>Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly,
>--> is it now about virtual nodes or virtual links or VNT links?
>2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is by
>having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the
>middle of the virtual topology
>--> that's why access links are so useful. They end at server nodes
>--> which are connected via virtual links
>3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain
>switches, because, generally speaking:
>--> in case of VNT-VLs no intermediate nodes are necessarily required
>4.  --> No need to comment, this way doesn't scale anyway.
>5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could
>potentially go through a real server domain switch, the
>latter's connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so
>that the two services traversing the switch will not
>simultaneously fail if a single internal element shared by the
>services fails
>--> who is 'you' that computes? A client selects among VNT
>virtual links based on exposed SRLGs, VLs are computed by the
>server with full knowledge of constraints. So what does an
>'internal' SRLG mean to a server path computation?
>6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be
>addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with
>blocking switches, you will understand that there is
>absolutely no difference between a virtual node and real
>blocking real node.
>--> I suggest to model a complete network of say 5 nodes in a
>single VN and compare it with the model of a single real node.
>
>--> The assessments made have used a terminology definition
>that doesn't really capture the case made for VNT-VLs.
>That's why I would have had appreciated to split definitions
>and work items agreed among a group from individual
>assessments in separate emails.
>Nevertheless I consider the first part of your email (all
>except the appendix) as a good starting point for further
>clarification.
>
>Gert
>________________________________________
>From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Daniele Ceccarelli
>Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 12:17:08 PM
>To: CCAMP
>Subject: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>Dear CCAMPers,
>
>In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the Overlay
>model framework and related works took place. Some discussions
>led to some sort of agreemet among a small group of people,
>some others to a set a viable options, some others to totally
>open issues. I tried to summarize the output of such
>discussions below so to progress the discussions into a single
>thread on the WG ML.
>
>Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a well
>shaped and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to provide the
>basis for starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea
>(step 1) instead of starting it from scratch (step 0).
>
>In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a proposal
>of the overlay scenario.
>
>Thanks,
>Daniele
>
>+ Disclaimer:
> 1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work
>can be extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.
>
>+ Terminology:
>
> 1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between
>two virtual or real network elements in a client layer network
> that is maintained/controlled in and by the server domain
>control plane (and as such cannot transport any traffic/data
>and protected from being de-provisioned) and which can be
>instantiated in the data plane (and then can
>carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving previously
>advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.
> 2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or
>more server network  domain nodes that are collectively
>represented to the clients as a single node that exists in the
>client layer network and is capable of terminating of access,
>inter-domain and virtual links.
> 3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one
>or more virtual or real server network domain nodes that exist
>in the client layer network and are interconnected via 0 or
>more virtual links.
> 4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies
>provided by each of server network domains, access and
>inter-domain links.
> 5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that
>link. It can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
> 6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208
>teminology  but (i) receiving virtual topology from the core
>network and requesting the set up of one of them or (ii)
>requesting the computation and establishment of a path
>accordingly to gien constraints in the core network and
>receiving the parameters characterizing such path. (ii) =3D=3D UNI.
> 7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but
>able to deal with (i) and (ii) above.
> 8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for
>signaling and routing messages exchange between Overlay and
>Core network. Routing information consists on virtual topology
>advertisement. When there is no routing adjacency across the
>interface it is equivalent to the GMPLS UNI defined in 4208.
>Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information
>related to path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected
>SRLG, path delay etc, either passed from OE to OC via
>signaling after the LSP establishment in the core network or
>from OC to OE to be used as path computation constraints, fall
>under the definition of signaling info and not routing info).
> 9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the
>links between different core networks in the overlay model
>environment, i.e. Between border OEs. Same features of the ONI
>apply to this interface. Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new
>name is needed?
>
>+ Statements
> 1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build an
>overlay topology for the client network domains  2. The
>overlay topology is comprised of:
>    a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the server
>network domains). They can be PSC or LSC.
>    b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server
>network domains)
>    c) virtual topology provided by the server network
>domains. Virtual Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) + Connectivity
>Matrix (with a set of parameters e.g. SRLG, optical
>impairments, delay etc for each entry) describing connectivity
>between access links and virtual links.
> 3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy  of
>overlay topologies with overlay/underlay relationships  4. In
>the context of overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer
>relationships are peripheral at best, it is all about
>horizontal network integration  5. The overlay model assumes
>one instance for the client network and a separate instance
>for the server network and in the ONI case the server network
>also surreptitiously participates in the client network by
>injecting virtual topology information into it.
> 6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over
>the ONI (it falls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency
>is in place between OC and OE).
>
>+ Open issues/questions
>
> 1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about PCE
>and PCEP into the overlay framework context?
> 2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
> 3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?
>
>+ Appendix:
>Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale
>because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs
>have the same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs
>2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is by
>having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the
>middle of the virtual topology
>3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain
>switches, because, generally speaking:
>  a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
>  b)Real switches are named from different naming space
>  c)real switches individually may not have sufficient
>resources to terminate virtual links (while a group of real
>switches collectively will have)
>  d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual
>node have better scalability qualities
>4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real node,
>you need to keep in mind that real server domain switches are,
>generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must expose
>their connectivity matrices
>5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could
>potentially go through a real server domain switch, the
>latter's connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so
>that the two services traversing the switch will not
>simultaneously fail if a single internal element shared by the
>services fails
>6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be
>addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with
>blocking switches, you will understand that there is
>absolutely no difference between a virtual node and real
>blocking real node.
>7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected to
>server network domain must be upgraded so that they could
>understand the connectivity matrices advertised by the border
>nodes describing connectivity constraints between access links
>and virtual links they terminate.
>
>
>
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>DANIELE CECCARELLI
>System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro
>
>Via E.Melen, 77
>Genova, Italy
>Phone +390106002512
>Mobile +393346725750
>daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>www.ericsson.com
>
>This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive
>email on the basis of the term set out at
>www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer
>
>
>


From daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com  Mon Dec 17 07:03:33 2012
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From: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
To: Gert Grammel <ggrammel@juniper.net>, CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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I was suggesting to pick one of them :-)

Defining and using all of them would surely end up in a mess.

Cheers,
Daniele=20

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Gert Grammel [mailto:ggrammel@juniper.net]=20
>Sent: luned=EC 17 dicembre 2012 15.34
>To: Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP
>Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>Honestly,
>
>If there are three ways of doing it, I first would like to=20
>define 3 unambiguous terms to name them.
>After that we can decide what makes most sense.
>A) doesn't look scalable
>B) is better but still creates tons of links
>C) scales best but connectivity needs to be taken into account.
>
>If we name A "virtual client link" VCL, then B could be a=20
>"virtual attachment link" VAL and C a "virtual topological link" VTL.
>
>Gert
>
>
>
>________________________________________
>From: Daniele Ceccarelli
>Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 3:13:14 PM
>To: Gert Grammel; CCAMP
>Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>Hi Gert,
>
>Excellent catch. I totally missed it.
>
>Then we have two options for Virtual links definition...but=20
>thinking a little bit more of it, there are actually 3 of them.
>
>OC1                               OC2
>  \    +---+IF2       IF3+---+    /
>   \IF1|OE1|-------------|OE2|IF4/
>       +---+             +---+
>
>A) Virtual link is from OC1 to OC2
>B) Virtual link is from IF1 to IF4
>C) Virtual link is from IF2 to IF3
>
>Defining the virtual link as from IF2 to IF3 would need also=20
>to include the connectivity matrices of OE1 and OE2, while=20
>from IF1 to IF4 would remove the need for them as the=20
>information related to the connectivity matrix is already=20
>implied into the virtual link. Am i missing something?
>
>What would you suggest as the more reasonable definition?
>
>Cheers,
>Daniele
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Gert Grammel [mailto:ggrammel@juniper.net]
>>Sent: luned=EC 17 dicembre 2012 14.27
>>To: Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP
>>Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>
>>Daniele,
>>
>>Thank you for summarizing the current state of discussion. To move=20
>>forward and to encourage comments, let me point to some of the issues=20
>>that are debated:
>>
>>1) Virtual Link: in the terminology statement a virtual link seems to=20
>>connect two client elements. However later on the 3) virtual topology=20
>>is composed of access links and virtual links. Hence. Virtual links=20
>>connect server nodes, not client nodes. By doing so, segments (AL and=20
>>VL) are created.
>>2) The scalability consideration in the appendix for VL is based on=20
>>terminology 1) rather than on virtual topology 3).
>>This way it doesn't describe then the  scalability of a virtual=20
>>topology (which doesn't necessitate a full mesh) but rather that of a=20
>>virtual node (which implies a full connectivity matrix).
>>
>>To sum up:
>>1) we have to come up with a crisp definition of a VL in a virtual=20
>>topology that is different from a terminology 1) VL.
>>Here is a gap
>>2) A Model based on a vitual node or 'terminology 1) links'
>>create n**2 problems on client side and does not scale.
>>3) 'VNT'-virtual-links 3) and access links are supposed to=20
>address the=20
>>scaling problem. We need to clean up our terminology.=20
>Otherwise we end=20
>>up associating limitations of terminology 1) links with=20
>VNT-links that=20
>>address those limitations.
>>
>>Now looking at the appendix it sadly reflects the terminology=20
>confusion=20
>>and jumps to assessment and conclusions. That's unfortunate:
>>
>>The first line says:
>>Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>>1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly,
>>--> is it now about virtual nodes or virtual links or VNT links?
>>2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is by
>>having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the middle=20
>>of the virtual topology
>>--> that's why access links are so useful. They end at server nodes=20
>>--> which are connected via virtual links
>>3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain
>>switches, because, generally speaking:
>>--> in case of VNT-VLs no intermediate nodes are necessarily required
>>4.  --> No need to comment, this way doesn't scale anyway.
>>5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could
>>potentially go through a real server domain switch, the latter's=20
>>connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so that the two=20
>>services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail=20
>if a single=20
>>internal element shared by the services fails
>>--> who is 'you' that computes? A client selects among VNT
>>virtual links based on exposed SRLGs, VLs are computed by the server=20
>>with full knowledge of constraints. So what does an 'internal' SRLG=20
>>mean to a server path computation?
>>6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be
>>addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking=20
>>switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no difference=20
>>between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
>>--> I suggest to model a complete network of say 5 nodes in a
>>single VN and compare it with the model of a single real node.
>>
>>--> The assessments made have used a terminology definition
>>that doesn't really capture the case made for VNT-VLs.
>>That's why I would have had appreciated to split definitions and work=20
>>items agreed among a group from individual assessments in separate=20
>>emails.
>>Nevertheless I consider the first part of your email (all except the=20
>>appendix) as a good starting point for further clarification.
>>
>>Gert
>>________________________________________
>>From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Daniele Ceccarelli
>>Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 12:17:08 PM
>>To: CCAMP
>>Subject: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>
>>Dear CCAMPers,
>>
>>In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the Overlay model=20
>>framework and related works took place. Some discussions led to some=20
>>sort of agreemet among a small group of people, some others=20
>to a set a=20
>>viable options, some others to totally open issues. I tried to=20
>>summarize the output of such discussions below so to progress the=20
>>discussions into a single thread on the WG ML.
>>
>>Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a well shaped=20
>>and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to provide the basis for=20
>>starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea (step 1) instead of=20
>>starting it from scratch (step 0).
>>
>>In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a proposal of the=20
>>overlay scenario.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Daniele
>>
>>+ Disclaimer:
>> 1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work can be=20
>>extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.
>>
>>+ Terminology:
>>
>> 1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between two=20
>>virtual or real network elements in a client layer network  that is=20
>>maintained/controlled in and by the server domain control=20
>plane (and as=20
>>such cannot transport any traffic/data and protected from being=20
>>de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the data plane (and=20
>>then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving previously=20
>>advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.
>> 2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or=20
>more server=20
>>network  domain nodes that are collectively represented to=20
>the clients=20
>>as a single node that exists in the client layer network and=20
>is capable=20
>>of terminating of access, inter-domain and virtual links.
>> 3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one or more=20
>>virtual or real server network domain nodes that exist in the client=20
>>layer network and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual links.
>> 4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies=20
>provided by=20
>>each of server network domains, access and inter-domain links.
>> 5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that link. It=20
>>can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
>> 6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208=20
>teminology =20
>>but (i) receiving virtual topology from the core network and=20
>requesting=20
>>the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting the computation and=20
>>establishment of a path accordingly to gien constraints in the core=20
>>network and receiving the parameters characterizing such=20
>path. (ii) =3D=3D=20
>>UNI.
>> 7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but able to=20
>>deal with (i) and (ii) above.
>> 8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for signaling=20
>>and routing messages exchange between Overlay and Core=20
>network. Routing=20
>>information consists on virtual topology advertisement. When there is=20
>>no routing adjacency across the interface it is equivalent to=20
>the GMPLS=20
>>UNI defined in 4208.
>>Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information related to=20
>>path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected SRLG, path=20
>delay etc,=20
>>either passed from OE to OC via signaling after the LSP establishment=20
>>in the core network or from OC to OE to be used as path computation=20
>>constraints, fall under the definition of signaling info and not=20
>>routing info).
>> 9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the links=20
>>between different core networks in the overlay model=20
>environment, i.e.=20
>>Between border OEs. Same features of the ONI apply to this interface.=20
>>Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name is needed?
>>
>>+ Statements
>> 1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build an overlay=20
>>topology for the client network domains  2. The overlay topology is=20
>>comprised of:
>>    a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the=20
>server network=20
>>domains). They can be PSC or LSC.
>>    b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server network=20
>>domains)
>>    c) virtual topology provided by the server network=20
>domains. Virtual=20
>>Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) + Connectivity Matrix (with a set of=20
>>parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments, delay etc for each entry)=20
>>describing connectivity between access links and virtual links.
>> 3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy  of overlay=20
>>topologies with overlay/underlay relationships  4. In the context of=20
>>overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships are=20
>>peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network=20
>integration  5.=20
>>The overlay model assumes one instance for the client network and a=20
>>separate instance for the server network and in the ONI case=20
>the server=20
>>network also surreptitiously participates in the client network by=20
>>injecting virtual topology information into it.
>> 6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over=20
>the ONI (it=20
>>falls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency is in place=20
>between OC=20
>>and OE).
>>
>>+ Open issues/questions
>>
>> 1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about PCE=20
>and PCEP=20
>>into the overlay framework context?
>> 2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
>> 3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?
>>
>>+ Appendix:
>>Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>>1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale
>>because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs have the=20
>>same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs
>>2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is by
>>having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the middle=20
>>of the virtual topology
>>3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain
>>switches, because, generally speaking:
>>  a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
>>  b)Real switches are named from different naming space
>>  c)real switches individually may not have sufficient resources to=20
>>terminate virtual links (while a group of real switches collectively=20
>>will have)
>>  d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual node have=20
>>better scalability qualities
>>4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real node,
>>you need to keep in mind that real server domain switches are,=20
>>generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must expose their=20
>>connectivity matrices
>>5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could
>>potentially go through a real server domain switch, the latter's=20
>>connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so that the two=20
>>services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail=20
>if a single=20
>>internal element shared by the services fails
>>6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be
>>addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking=20
>>switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no difference=20
>>between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
>>7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected to
>>server network domain must be upgraded so that they could understand=20
>>the connectivity matrices advertised by the border nodes describing=20
>>connectivity constraints between access links and virtual links they=20
>>terminate.
>>
>>
>>
>>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>DANIELE CECCARELLI
>>System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro
>>
>>Via E.Melen, 77
>>Genova, Italy
>>Phone +390106002512
>>Mobile +393346725750
>>daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>>www.ericsson.com
>>
>>This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive email on=20
>>the basis of the term set out at www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer
>>
>>
>>
>
>=

From ggrammel@juniper.net  Mon Dec 17 07:11:04 2012
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From: Gert Grammel <ggrammel@juniper.net>
To: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>, CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Daniele,

I am not suggesting to use all of them. However in order to pick one, it wo=
uld be handy to give each option a name so that we can speak about it in un=
ambiguous terms. I am pretty sure that at this point my favorite is differe=
nt from somebody else's favorite. So labeling the choices should help.

Gert

-----Original Message-----
From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]=20
Sent: Montag, 17. Dezember 2012 16:03
To: Gert Grammel; CCAMP
Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context

I was suggesting to pick one of them :-)

Defining and using all of them would surely end up in a mess.

Cheers,
Daniele=20

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Gert Grammel [mailto:ggrammel@juniper.net]
>Sent: luned=EC 17 dicembre 2012 15.34
>To: Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP
>Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>Honestly,
>
>If there are three ways of doing it, I first would like to define 3=20
>unambiguous terms to name them.
>After that we can decide what makes most sense.
>A) doesn't look scalable
>B) is better but still creates tons of links
>C) scales best but connectivity needs to be taken into account.
>
>If we name A "virtual client link" VCL, then B could be a "virtual=20
>attachment link" VAL and C a "virtual topological link" VTL.
>
>Gert
>
>
>
>________________________________________
>From: Daniele Ceccarelli
>Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 3:13:14 PM
>To: Gert Grammel; CCAMP
>Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>Hi Gert,
>
>Excellent catch. I totally missed it.
>
>Then we have two options for Virtual links definition...but thinking a=20
>little bit more of it, there are actually 3 of them.
>
>OC1                               OC2
>  \    +---+IF2       IF3+---+    /
>   \IF1|OE1|-------------|OE2|IF4/
>       +---+             +---+
>
>A) Virtual link is from OC1 to OC2
>B) Virtual link is from IF1 to IF4
>C) Virtual link is from IF2 to IF3
>
>Defining the virtual link as from IF2 to IF3 would need also to include=20
>the connectivity matrices of OE1 and OE2, while from IF1 to IF4 would=20
>remove the need for them as the information related to the connectivity=20
>matrix is already implied into the virtual link. Am i missing=20
>something?
>
>What would you suggest as the more reasonable definition?
>
>Cheers,
>Daniele
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Gert Grammel [mailto:ggrammel@juniper.net]
>>Sent: luned=EC 17 dicembre 2012 14.27
>>To: Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP
>>Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>
>>Daniele,
>>
>>Thank you for summarizing the current state of discussion. To move=20
>>forward and to encourage comments, let me point to some of the issues=20
>>that are debated:
>>
>>1) Virtual Link: in the terminology statement a virtual link seems to=20
>>connect two client elements. However later on the 3) virtual topology=20
>>is composed of access links and virtual links. Hence. Virtual links=20
>>connect server nodes, not client nodes. By doing so, segments (AL and
>>VL) are created.
>>2) The scalability consideration in the appendix for VL is based on=20
>>terminology 1) rather than on virtual topology 3).
>>This way it doesn't describe then the  scalability of a virtual=20
>>topology (which doesn't necessitate a full mesh) but rather that of a=20
>>virtual node (which implies a full connectivity matrix).
>>
>>To sum up:
>>1) we have to come up with a crisp definition of a VL in a virtual=20
>>topology that is different from a terminology 1) VL.
>>Here is a gap
>>2) A Model based on a vitual node or 'terminology 1) links'
>>create n**2 problems on client side and does not scale.
>>3) 'VNT'-virtual-links 3) and access links are supposed to
>address the
>>scaling problem. We need to clean up our terminology.=20
>Otherwise we end
>>up associating limitations of terminology 1) links with
>VNT-links that
>>address those limitations.
>>
>>Now looking at the appendix it sadly reflects the terminology
>confusion
>>and jumps to assessment and conclusions. That's unfortunate:
>>
>>The first line says:
>>Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>>1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly,
>>--> is it now about virtual nodes or virtual links or VNT links?
>>2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is by
>>having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the middle=20
>>of the virtual topology
>>--> that's why access links are so useful. They end at server nodes=20
>>--> which are connected via virtual links
>>3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain
>>switches, because, generally speaking:
>>--> in case of VNT-VLs no intermediate nodes are necessarily required
>>4.  --> No need to comment, this way doesn't scale anyway.
>>5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could
>>potentially go through a real server domain switch, the latter's=20
>>connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so that the two=20
>>services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail
>if a single
>>internal element shared by the services fails
>>--> who is 'you' that computes? A client selects among VNT
>>virtual links based on exposed SRLGs, VLs are computed by the server=20
>>with full knowledge of constraints. So what does an 'internal' SRLG=20
>>mean to a server path computation?
>>6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be
>>addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking=20
>>switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no difference=20
>>between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
>>--> I suggest to model a complete network of say 5 nodes in a
>>single VN and compare it with the model of a single real node.
>>
>>--> The assessments made have used a terminology definition
>>that doesn't really capture the case made for VNT-VLs.
>>That's why I would have had appreciated to split definitions and work=20
>>items agreed among a group from individual assessments in separate=20
>>emails.
>>Nevertheless I consider the first part of your email (all except the
>>appendix) as a good starting point for further clarification.
>>
>>Gert
>>________________________________________
>>From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Daniele Ceccarelli
>>Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 12:17:08 PM
>>To: CCAMP
>>Subject: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>
>>Dear CCAMPers,
>>
>>In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the Overlay model=20
>>framework and related works took place. Some discussions led to some=20
>>sort of agreemet among a small group of people, some others
>to a set a
>>viable options, some others to totally open issues. I tried to=20
>>summarize the output of such discussions below so to progress the=20
>>discussions into a single thread on the WG ML.
>>
>>Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a well shaped=20
>>and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to provide the basis for=20
>>starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea (step 1) instead of=20
>>starting it from scratch (step 0).
>>
>>In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a proposal of the=20
>>overlay scenario.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Daniele
>>
>>+ Disclaimer:
>> 1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work can be=20
>>extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.
>>
>>+ Terminology:
>>
>> 1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between two=20
>>virtual or real network elements in a client layer network  that is=20
>>maintained/controlled in and by the server domain control
>plane (and as
>>such cannot transport any traffic/data and protected from being
>>de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the data plane (and=20
>>then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving previously=20
>>advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.
>> 2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or
>more server
>>network  domain nodes that are collectively represented to
>the clients
>>as a single node that exists in the client layer network and
>is capable
>>of terminating of access, inter-domain and virtual links.
>> 3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one or more=20
>>virtual or real server network domain nodes that exist in the client=20
>>layer network and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual links.
>> 4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies
>provided by
>>each of server network domains, access and inter-domain links.
>> 5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that link. It=20
>>can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
>> 6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208
>teminology
>>but (i) receiving virtual topology from the core network and
>requesting
>>the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting the computation and=20
>>establishment of a path accordingly to gien constraints in the core=20
>>network and receiving the parameters characterizing such
>path. (ii) =3D=3D
>>UNI.
>> 7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but able to=20
>>deal with (i) and (ii) above.
>> 8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for signaling=20
>>and routing messages exchange between Overlay and Core
>network. Routing
>>information consists on virtual topology advertisement. When there is=20
>>no routing adjacency across the interface it is equivalent to
>the GMPLS
>>UNI defined in 4208.
>>Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information related to=20
>>path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected SRLG, path
>delay etc,
>>either passed from OE to OC via signaling after the LSP establishment=20
>>in the core network or from OC to OE to be used as path computation=20
>>constraints, fall under the definition of signaling info and not=20
>>routing info).
>> 9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the links=20
>>between different core networks in the overlay model
>environment, i.e.=20
>>Between border OEs. Same features of the ONI apply to this interface.=20
>>Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name is needed?
>>
>>+ Statements
>> 1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build an overlay=20
>>topology for the client network domains  2. The overlay topology is=20
>>comprised of:
>>    a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the
>server network
>>domains). They can be PSC or LSC.
>>    b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server network
>>domains)
>>    c) virtual topology provided by the server network
>domains. Virtual
>>Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) + Connectivity Matrix (with a set of=20
>>parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments, delay etc for each entry)=20
>>describing connectivity between access links and virtual links.
>> 3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy  of overlay=20
>>topologies with overlay/underlay relationships  4. In the context of=20
>>overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships are=20
>>peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network
>integration  5.=20
>>The overlay model assumes one instance for the client network and a=20
>>separate instance for the server network and in the ONI case
>the server
>>network also surreptitiously participates in the client network by=20
>>injecting virtual topology information into it.
>> 6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over
>the ONI (it
>>falls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency is in place
>between OC
>>and OE).
>>
>>+ Open issues/questions
>>
>> 1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about PCE
>and PCEP
>>into the overlay framework context?
>> 2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
>> 3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?
>>
>>+ Appendix:
>>Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>>1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale
>>because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs have the=20
>>same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs
>>2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is by
>>having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the middle=20
>>of the virtual topology
>>3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain
>>switches, because, generally speaking:
>>  a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
>>  b)Real switches are named from different naming space
>>  c)real switches individually may not have sufficient resources to=20
>>terminate virtual links (while a group of real switches collectively=20
>>will have)
>>  d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual node have=20
>>better scalability qualities
>>4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real node,
>>you need to keep in mind that real server domain switches are,=20
>>generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must expose their=20
>>connectivity matrices
>>5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could
>>potentially go through a real server domain switch, the latter's=20
>>connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so that the two=20
>>services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail
>if a single
>>internal element shared by the services fails
>>6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be
>>addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking=20
>>switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no difference=20
>>between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
>>7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected to
>>server network domain must be upgraded so that they could understand=20
>>the connectivity matrices advertised by the border nodes describing=20
>>connectivity constraints between access links and virtual links they=20
>>terminate.
>>
>>
>>
>>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>DANIELE CECCARELLI
>>System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro
>>
>>Via E.Melen, 77
>>Genova, Italy
>>Phone +390106002512
>>Mobile +393346725750
>>daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>>www.ericsson.com
>>
>>This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive email on=20
>>the basis of the term set out at www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer
>>
>>
>>
>
>


From cfilsfil@cisco.com  Mon Dec 17 09:53:05 2012
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>, Rudiger Kunze <ruediger.kunze@telekom.de>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Regarding IPR on draft-ali-ccamp-te-metric-recording-03
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Lou,

Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft.
No, the IPR is still being documented.

Cheers,
Clarence

On 15/12/2012 16:09, Zafar Ali (zali) wrote:
> Hi Lou, et al-
>
> Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft.
> No, the IPR has not been disclosed but it's a work in progress.
>
> Thanks
>
> Regards...Zafar
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2012 6:01 PM
>> To: Zafar Ali (zali); George Swallow (swallow); Clarence Filsfils (cfilsfil); Matt Hartley (mhartley);
>> Kenji Kumaki; Rudiger Kunze; CCAMP
>> Subject: Regarding IPR on draft-ali-ccamp-te-metric-recording-03
>>
>> Authors, Contributors, (CCAMP)
>>
>> As part of the preparation for the poll on making this document a WG
>> document:
>>
>> Are you aware of any IPR that applies to draft-ali-ccamp-te-metric-recording-03?
>>
>>    Please state either:
>>
>>    "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft"
>>    or
>>    "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft"
>>
>> If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879,
>> 3669 and 5378 for more details)?
>>
>>     If yes to the above, please state either:
>>
>>    "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules"
>>    or
>>    "No, the IPR has not been disclosed"
>>
>>    If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think
>>    appropriate.
>>
>> If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the above by responding to
>> this email regardless of whether or not you are aware of any relevant IPR.  This document will not
>> advance to the next stage until a response has been received from each author and listed
>> contributor.  NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS MESSAGE'S TO
>> LINES.
>>
>> If you are on the CCAMP WG email list but are not listed as an author or contributor, we remind
>> you of your obligations under the IETF IPR rules which encourages you to notify the IETF if you
>> are aware of IPR of others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from participating in any
>> contribution or discussion related to your undisclosed IPR.  For more information, please see the
>> RFCs listed above and http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty.
>>
>> Thank you,
>> CCAMP WG Chairs
>>
>> PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in your response.
>
>
>

From lberger@labn.net  Mon Dec 17 11:45:44 2012
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Daniele,
	Thanks for getting this on-list discussion going.  I have some comments
and questions:

- So what's a "client layer network" in this context?  Perhaps you mean
OC or "(overlay) customer layer"?

- So what's a "server layer network" in this context?  Perhaps you mean
OE or "(overlay) provider layer"?

- For OC, I'd thing referring back to a CE in the VPN context, and
likewise to a PE for an OE, is helpful context.

- As you mention in the Appendix, (from the OC perspective) there is no
difference between a virtual and real node (and presumably link as
well).  Given this and your comment in 8, that the ONI can take the form
of a UNI or include both signaling and routing (i.e., a peer/I-NNI or
E-NNI) what value is there in introducing the ONI term?  Said another
way, there's no specific term for the interface between a CE and PE in
L3VPNs, so why do we need to introduce one in this context?

I think this same comment probably holds for the O-NNI (e.g., what's the
name of the interface between providers which support L3VPN handoffs?)...

Much thanks,
Lou

On 12/17/2012 6:17 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
> Dear CCAMPers,
> 
> In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the Overlay model framework and related works took place. Some discussions led to some sort of agreemet among a small group of people, some others to a set a viable options, some others to totally open issues. I tried to summarize the output of such discussions below so to progress the discussions into a single thread on the WG ML.
> 
> Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a well shaped and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to provide the basis for starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea (step 1) instead of starting it from scratch (step 0).
> 
> In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a proposal of the overlay scenario.
> 
> Thanks,
> Daniele
> 
> + Disclaimer:
>  1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work can be extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.
> 
> + Terminology:
> 
>  1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between two virtual or real network elements in a client layer network  that is maintained/controlled in and by the server domain control plane (and as such cannot transport any traffic/data and protected from being de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the data plane (and then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving previously advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.
>  2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or more server network  domain nodes that are collectively represented to the clients as a single node that exists in the client layer network and is capable of terminating of access, inter-domain and virtual links.
>  3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one or more virtual or real server network domain nodes that exist in the client layer network and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual links.
>  4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies provided by each of server network domains, access and inter-domain links.
>  5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that link. It can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
>  6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208 teminology  but (i) receiving virtual topology from the core  network and requesting the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting the computation and establishment of a path accordingly to gien constraints in the core network and receiving the parameters characterizing such path. (ii) == UNI.
>  7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but able to deal with (i) and (ii) above.
>  8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for signaling and routing messages exchange between Overlay and Core network. Routing information consists on virtual topology advertisement. When there is no routing adjacency across the interface it is equivalent to the GMPLS UNI defined in 4208. Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information related to path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected SRLG, path delay etc, either passed from OE to OC via signaling after the LSP establishment in the core network or from OC to OE to be used as path computation constraints, fall under the definition of signaling info and not routing info).
>  9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the links between different core networks in the overlay model environment, i.e. Between border OEs. Same features of the ONI apply to this interface. Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name is needed?
> 
> + Statements
>  1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build an overlay topology for the client network domains
>  2. The overlay topology is comprised of:
>     a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the server network domains). They can be PSC or LSC.
>     b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server network domains)   
>     c) virtual topology provided by the server network domains. Virtual Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) + Connectivity Matrix (with a set of parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments, delay etc for each entry) describing connectivity between access links and virtual links.
>  3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy  of overlay topologies with overlay/underlay relationships
>  4. In the context of overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships are peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network integration 
>  5. The overlay model assumes one instance for the client network and a separate instance for the server network and in the ONI case the server network also surreptitiously participates in the client network by injecting virtual topology information into it.
>  6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over the ONI (it falls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency is in place between OC and OE).
> 
> + Open issues/questions
>  
>  1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about PCE and PCEP into the overlay framework context?
>  2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
>  3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?
> 
> + Appendix:
> Some notes on the Virtual Node:
> 1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs have the same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs
> 2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is by having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the middle of the virtual topology
> 3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain switches, because, generally speaking:
>   a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
>   b)Real switches are named from different naming space
>   c)real switches individually may not have sufficient resources to terminate virtual links (while a group of real switches collectively will have)
>   d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual node have better scalability qualities
> 4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real node, you need to keep in mind that real server domain switches are, generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must expose their connectivity matrices
> 5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could potentially go through a real server domain switch, the latter's connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so that the two services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail if a single internal element shared by the services fails
> 6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no difference between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
> 7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected to server network domain must be upgraded so that they could understand the connectivity matrices advertised by the border nodes describing connectivity constraints between access links and virtual links they terminate.
> 
> 
>  
> ===================================
> DANIELE CECCARELLI  
> System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro 
> 
> Via E.Melen, 77
> Genova, Italy
> Phone +390106002512
> Mobile +393346725750
> daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
> www.ericsson.com  
> 
> This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive email on the basis of the term set out at www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer  
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> 

From IBryskin@advaoptical.com  Mon Dec 17 12:11:54 2012
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From: Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>
To: Gert Grammel <ggrammel@juniper.net>, Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>, CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 20:11:42 +0000
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Gert,

Please, see in line. I disagree with pretty much everything you say.=20
Igor

-----Original Message-----
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of G=
ert Grammel
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 8:27 AM
To: Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context

Daniele,

Thank you for summarizing the current state of discussion. To move forward =
and to encourage comments, let me point to some of the issues that are deba=
ted:

1) Virtual Link: in the terminology statement a virtual link seems to conne=
ct two client elements.
IB>> The definition says:
"1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between two virtual or=
 real network elements in a client layer", what makes you think that anyone=
 ever applied that this is a path between client devices? The definition sh=
ould say, though: " a potential path between two virtual or real server dom=
ain network elements"

 However later on the 3) virtual topology is composed of access links and v=
irtual links. Hence. Virtual links connect server nodes, not client nodes.
IB>> see above

 By doing so, segments (AL and VL) are created.

2) The scalability consideration in the appendix for VL is based on termino=
logy 1) rather than on virtual topology=20

IB>> I completely disagree with this, see below

3). This way it doesn't describe then the  scalability of a virtual topolog=
y (which doesn't necessitate a full mesh) but rather that of a virtual node=
 (which implies a full connectivity matrix).

To sum up:
1) we have to come up with a crisp definition of a VL in a virtual topology=
 that is different from a terminology 1) VL. Here is a gap
2) A Model based on a vitual node or 'terminology 1) links' create n**2 pro=
blems on client side and does not scale.
3) 'VNT'-virtual-links 3) and access links are supposed to address the scal=
ing problem. We need to clean up our terminology. Otherwise we end up assoc=
iating limitations of terminology 1) links with VNT-links that address thos=
e limitations.

IB>> It seems to me that you completely misunderstand current definitions

Now looking at the appendix it sadly reflects the terminology confusion and=
 jumps to assessment and conclusions. That's unfortunate:

The first line says:
Some notes on the Virtual Node:
1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly,
--> is it now about virtual nodes or virtual links or VNT links?
IB>> Virtual Link Model includes access, inter-domain and virtual links but=
 does not include virtual nodes

2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is by having inter=
mediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the middle of the virtual to=
pology
--> that's why access links are so useful. They end at server nodes=20
--> which are connected via virtual links

IB>> A combination of access and virtual links alone *does not address N**2=
 problem*.
Consider 1000 client devices connected via 1000 access links to the network=
 that need to be fully interconnected. You will need 1000000 VLs to do so. =
You need to have one or more Virtual Nodes in the middle of the virtual top=
ology to solve this issue. Overlay Network Topology is no different from re=
al network topology, and real network topologies do include Ps, not just PE=
s=20
=20
3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain switches, bec=
ause, generally speaking:
--> in case of VNT-VLs no intermediate nodes are necessarily required
IB>> See  above, IMO you are dead wrong

4.  --> No need to comment, this way doesn't scale anyway.
IB>> ONTs with virtual nodes scale no worse that real network topologies

5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could potentially g=
o through a real server domain switch, the latter's connectivity matrix mus=
t expose "internal" SRLGs, so that the two services traversing the switch w=
ill not simultaneously fail if a single internal element shared by the serv=
ices fails
--> who is 'you' that computes? A client selects among VNT virtual links ba=
sed on exposed SRLGs, VLs are computed by the server with full knowledge of=
 constraints. So what does an 'internal' SRLG mean to a server path computa=
tion?

IB>> You is the client path computer. If the two paths are going through th=
e same node, they may overlap inside the node, which means they can be brou=
ght down by a single network failure. That's why you need to expose  node's=
 internal SRLGs or try to find node disjoint paths (which may not be availa=
ble)

6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be addressed when you ar=
e traffic engineering topologies with blocking switches, you will understan=
d that there is absolutely no difference between a virtual node and real bl=
ocking real node.
--> I suggest to model a complete network of say 5 nodes in a single VN and=
 compare it with the model of a single real node.

IB>> Please, do that

--> The assessments made have used a terminology definition that doesn't re=
ally capture the case made for VNT-VLs.
That's why I would have had appreciated to split definitions and work items=
 agreed among a group from individual assessments in separate emails.
Nevertheless I consider the first part of your email (all except the append=
ix) as a good starting point for further clarification.

Gert
________________________________________
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Daniele Ceccarelli
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 12:17:08 PM
To: CCAMP
Subject: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context

Dear CCAMPers,

In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the Overlay model framewo=
rk and related works took place. Some discussions led to some sort of agree=
met among a small group of people, some others to a set a viable options, s=
ome others to totally open issues. I tried to summarize the output of such =
discussions below so to progress the discussions into a single thread on th=
e WG ML.

Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a well shaped and c=
onclusive idea to the WG but rather to provide the basis for starting a dis=
cussion from a barely shaped idea (step 1) instead of starting it from scra=
tch (step 0).

In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a proposal of the overl=
ay scenario.

Thanks,
Daniele

+ Disclaimer:
 1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work can be extente=
d to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.

+ Terminology:

 1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between two virtual or=
 real network elements in a client layer network  that is maintained/contro=
lled in and by the server domain control plane (and as such cannot transpor=
t any traffic/data and protected from being de-provisioned) and which can b=
e instantiated in the data plane (and then can carry/transport/forward traf=
fic/data) preserving previously advertised attributes such as fate sharing =
information.
 2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or more server netw=
ork  domain nodes that are collectively represented to the clients as a sin=
gle node that exists in the client layer network and is capable of terminat=
ing of access, inter-domain and virtual links.
 3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one or more virtua=
l or real server network domain nodes that exist in the client layer networ=
k and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual links.
 4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies provided by each=
 of server network domains, access and inter-domain links.
 5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that link. It can su=
pport any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
 6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208 teminology  but=
 (i) receiving virtual topology from the core  network and requesting the s=
et up of one of them or (ii) requesting the computation and establishment o=
f a path accordingly to gien constraints in the core network and receiving =
the parameters characterizing such path. (ii) =3D=3D UNI.
 7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but able to deal wi=
th (i) and (ii) above.
 8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for signaling and r=
outing messages exchange between Overlay and Core network. Routing informat=
ion consists on virtual topology advertisement. When there is no routing ad=
jacency across the interface it is equivalent to the GMPLS UNI defined in 4=
208. Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information related to =
path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected SRLG, path delay etc, eith=
er passed from OE to OC via signaling after the LSP establishment in the co=
re network or from OC to OE to be used as path computation constraints, fal=
l under the definition of signaling info and not routing info).
 9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the links between d=
ifferent core networks in the overlay model environment, i.e. Between borde=
r OEs. Same features of the ONI apply to this interface. Could it be an E-N=
NI? A ONI? A new name is needed?

+ Statements
 1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build an overlay topol=
ogy for the client network domains  2. The overlay topology is comprised of=
:
    a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the server network doma=
ins). They can be PSC or LSC.
    b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server network domains)
    c) virtual topology provided by the server network domains. Virtual Lin=
ks + Virtual Nodes (TBD) + Connectivity Matrix (with a set of parameters e.=
g. SRLG, optical impairments, delay etc for each entry) describing connecti=
vity between access links and virtual links.
 3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy  of overlay topolo=
gies with overlay/underlay relationships  4. In the context of overlay mode=
l multi-layering and inter-layer relationships are peripheral at best, it i=
s all about horizontal network integration  5. The overlay model assumes on=
e instance for the client network and a separate instance for the server ne=
twork and in the ONI case the server network also surreptitiously participa=
tes in the client network by injecting virtual topology information into it=
.
 6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over the ONI (it fal=
ls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency is in place between OC and OE=
).

+ Open issues/questions

 1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about PCE and PCEP into=
 the overlay framework context?
 2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
 3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?

+ Appendix:
Some notes on the Virtual Node:
1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale because of N**2 pro=
blem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs have the same issue, that's why pe=
ople invented multi-segment PWs
2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is by having inter=
mediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the middle of the virtual to=
pology
3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain switches, bec=
ause, generally speaking:
  a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
  b)Real switches are named from different naming space
  c)real switches individually may not have sufficient resources to termina=
te virtual links (while a group of real switches collectively will have)
  d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual node have bette=
r scalability qualities
4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real node, you need to k=
eep in mind that real server domain switches are, generally speaking, block=
ing switches and as such must expose their connectivity matrices
5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could potentially g=
o through a real server domain switch, the latter's connectivity matrix mus=
t expose "internal" SRLGs, so that the two services traversing the switch w=
ill not simultaneously fail if a single internal element shared by the serv=
ices fails
6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be addressed when you ar=
e traffic engineering topologies with blocking switches, you will understan=
d that there is absolutely no difference between a virtual node and real bl=
ocking real node.
7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected to server netwo=
rk domain must be upgraded so that they could understand the connectivity m=
atrices advertised by the border nodes describing connectivity constraints =
between access links and virtual links they terminate.



=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
DANIELE CECCARELLI
System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro

Via E.Melen, 77
Genova, Italy
Phone +390106002512
Mobile +393346725750
daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
www.ericsson.com

This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive email on the b=
asis of the term set out at www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer


_______________________________________________
CCAMP mailing list
CCAMP@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

From mhartley@cisco.com  Tue Dec 18 08:56:00 2012
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From: "Matt Hartley (mhartley)" <mhartley@cisco.com>
To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, "George Swallow (swallow)" <swallow@cisco.com>, "Clarence Filsfils (cfilsfil)" <cfilsfil@cisco.com>, "Ori Gerstel (ogerstel)" <ogerstel@cisco.com>, "Gabriele Maria Galimberti (ggalimbe)" <ggalimbe@cisco.com>, Kenji Kumaki <ke-kumaki@kddi.com>, Rudiger Kunze <Ruediger.Kunze@telekom.de>, Julien Meuric <julien.meuric@orange.com>
Thread-Topic: Regarding IPR on draft-ali-ccamp-xro-lsp-subobject-02
Thread-Index: Ac3a3hHWeRigtQMvQR+SyhHK2Tn0pQCYhnTQ
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 16:55:56 +0000
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Regarding IPR on draft-ali-ccamp-xro-lsp-subobject-02
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Lou, all,

I'm also aware of the IPR mentioned by Zafar. Nothing else.

Cheers

Matt

=20
> Hi Lou, et al-
>=20
> Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft.
> Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules . Pleas=
e
> see https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/1943/
>=20
> Thanks
>=20
> Regards...Zafar
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2012 6:01 PM
> > To: Zafar Ali (zali); George Swallow (swallow); Clarence Filsfils
> > (cfilsfil); Matt Hartley (mhartley); Ori Gerstel (ogerstel); Gabriele
> > Maria Galimberti (ggalimbe); Kenji Kumaki; Rudiger Kunze; Julien
> > Meuric
> > Cc: CCAMP
> > Subject: Regarding IPR on draft-ali-ccamp-xro-lsp-subobject-02
> >
> > Authors, Contributors, (CCAMP)
> >
> > As part of the preparation for the poll on making this document a WG
> > document:
> >
> > Are you aware of any IPR that applies to draft-ali-ccamp-xro-lsp-subobj=
ect-
> 02?
> >
> >   Please state either:
> >
> >   "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft"
> >   or
> >   "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft"
> >
> > If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules
> > (see RFCs 3979, 4879,
> > 3669 and 5378 for more details)?
> >
> >    If yes to the above, please state either:
> >
> >   "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules"
> >   or
> >   "No, the IPR has not been disclosed"
> >
> >   If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think
> >   appropriate.
> >
> > If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer
> > the above by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you
> > are aware of any relevant IPR.  This document will not advance to the
> > next stage until a response has been received from each author and
> > listed contributor.  NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS
> MESSAGE'S TO LINES.
> >
> > If you are on the CCAMP WG email list but are not listed as an author
> > or contributor, we remind you of your obligations under the IETF IPR
> > rules which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are aware of IPR
> > of others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from participating in
> > any contribution or discussion related to your undisclosed IPR.  For mo=
re
> information, please see the RFCs listed above and
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty.
> >
> > Thank you,
> > CCAMP WG Chairs
> >
> > PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in your
> response.


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From: "Matt Hartley (mhartley)" <mhartley@cisco.com>
To: "Clarence Filsfils (cfilsfil)" <cfilsfil@cisco.com>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: Regarding IPR on draft-ali-ccamp-te-metric-recording-03
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Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 17:18:31 +0000
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References: <50BE8093.7090800@labn.net> <B6585D85A128FD47857D0FD58D8120D3B001CF@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <50CF5BF4.9080008@cisco.com>
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>, Rudiger Kunze <ruediger.kunze@telekom.de>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Regarding IPR on draft-ali-ccamp-te-metric-recording-03
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I'm also aware of the same IPR, which is still being documented.

Cheers

Matt

=20
> Lou,
>=20
> Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft.
> No, the IPR is still being documented.
>=20
> Cheers,
> Clarence
>=20
> On 15/12/2012 16:09, Zafar Ali (zali) wrote:
> > Hi Lou, et al-
> >
> > Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft.
> > No, the IPR has not been disclosed but it's a work in progress.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Regards...Zafar
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
> >> Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2012 6:01 PM
> >> To: Zafar Ali (zali); George Swallow (swallow); Clarence Filsfils
> >> (cfilsfil); Matt Hartley (mhartley); Kenji Kumaki; Rudiger Kunze;
> >> CCAMP
> >> Subject: Regarding IPR on draft-ali-ccamp-te-metric-recording-03
> >>
> >> Authors, Contributors, (CCAMP)
> >>
> >> As part of the preparation for the poll on making this document a WG
> >> document:
> >>
> >> Are you aware of any IPR that applies to draft-ali-ccamp-te-metric-
> recording-03?
> >>
> >>    Please state either:
> >>
> >>    "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft"
> >>    or
> >>    "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft"
> >>
> >> If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules
> >> (see RFCs 3979, 4879,
> >> 3669 and 5378 for more details)?
> >>
> >>     If yes to the above, please state either:
> >>
> >>    "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules"
> >>    or
> >>    "No, the IPR has not been disclosed"
> >>
> >>    If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think
> >>    appropriate.
> >>
> >> If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer
> >> the above by responding to this email regardless of whether or not
> >> you are aware of any relevant IPR.  This document will not advance to
> >> the next stage until a response has been received from each author
> >> and listed contributor.  NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN TH=
IS
> MESSAGE'S TO LINES.
> >>
> >> If you are on the CCAMP WG email list but are not listed as an author
> >> or contributor, we remind you of your obligations under the IETF IPR
> >> rules which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are aware of IPR
> >> of others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from participating
> >> in any contribution or discussion related to your undisclosed IPR.  Fo=
r
> more information, please see the RFCs listed above and
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty.
> >>
> >> Thank you,
> >> CCAMP WG Chairs
> >>
> >> PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in your
> response.
> >
> >
> >

From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Tue Dec 18 17:00:46 2012
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Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-08.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.
 This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Work=
ing Group of the IETF.

	Title           : Link Management Protocol Behavior Negotiation and Config=
uration Modifications
	Author(s)       : Dan Li
                          Daniele Ceccarelli
                          Lou Berger
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-08.txt
	Pages           : 11
	Date            : 2012-12-18

Abstract:
   The Link Management Protocol (LMP) is used to coordinate the
   properties, use, and faults of data links in Generalized
   Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) networks. This document
   defines an extension to LMP to negotiate capabilities and indicate
   support for LMP extensions. The defined extension is compatible
   with non-supporting implementations.

   This document updates RFC 4204, RFC 4207, RFC 4209 and RFC 5818.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-08

A diff from the previous version is available at:
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiatio=
n-08


Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com  Wed Dec 19 02:56:36 2012
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Hi Lou,

Plese find replies in line.

BR
Daniele=20

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]=20
>Sent: luned=EC 17 dicembre 2012 20.45
>To: Daniele Ceccarelli
>Cc: CCAMP
>Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>
>Daniele,
>	Thanks for getting this on-list discussion going.  I=20
>have some comments and questions:
>
>- So what's a "client layer network" in this context?  Perhaps=20
>you mean OC or "(overlay) customer layer"?

Yes. The terms client layer and server layer are reminescences to be correc=
ted.

>
>- So what's a "server layer network" in this context?  Perhaps=20
>you mean OE or "(overlay) provider layer"?

Again correct

>
>- For OC, I'd thing referring back to a CE in the VPN context,=20
>and likewise to a PE for an OE, is helpful context.

In the case of the interface we generally define the ONI as an overlay inte=
rface that in a particular case is called UNI. I would apply the same metho=
d: those nodes are called Overlay Customer and Overlay Edge and in the part=
icular case of VPNs they are the CE and PE respectively. What about that?

>
>- As you mention in the Appendix, (from the OC perspective)=20
>there is no difference between a virtual and real node (and=20
>presumably link as well).  Given this and your comment in 8,=20
>that the ONI can take the form of a UNI or include both=20
>signaling and routing (i.e., a peer/I-NNI or
>E-NNI) what value is there in introducing the ONI term?  Said=20
>another way, there's no specific term for the interface=20
>between a CE and PE in L3VPNs, so why do we need to introduce=20
>one in this context?

We gave a name to the UNI, why don't giving to the ONI?

>
>I think this same comment probably holds for the O-NNI (e.g.,=20
>what's the name of the interface between providers which=20
>support L3VPN handoffs?)...

I would suggest giving a name to that interface also in order to distinguis=
h between an "internal" and an "external" link when multiple overlay provid=
er network domains are present.

>
>Much thanks,
>Lou
>
>On 12/17/2012 6:17 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
>> Dear CCAMPers,
>>=20
>> In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the=20
>Overlay model framework and related works took place. Some=20
>discussions led to some sort of agreemet among a small group=20
>of people, some others to a set a viable options, some others=20
>to totally open issues. I tried to summarize the output of=20
>such discussions below so to progress the discussions into a=20
>single thread on the WG ML.
>>=20
>> Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a=20
>well shaped and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to=20
>provide the basis for starting a discussion from a barely=20
>shaped idea (step 1) instead of starting it from scratch (step 0).
>>=20
>> In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a=20
>proposal of the overlay scenario.
>>=20
>> Thanks,
>> Daniele
>>=20
>> + Disclaimer:
>>  1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work=20
>can be extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.
>>=20
>> + Terminology:
>>=20
>>  1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between=20
>two virtual or real network elements in a client layer network=20
> that is maintained/controlled in and by the server domain=20
>control plane (and as such cannot transport any traffic/data=20
>and protected from being de-provisioned) and which can be=20
>instantiated in the data plane (and then can=20
>carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving previously=20
>advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.
>>  2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or=20
>more server network  domain nodes that are collectively=20
>represented to the clients as a single node that exists in the=20
>client layer network and is capable of terminating of access,=20
>inter-domain and virtual links.
>>  3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one=20
>or more virtual or real server network domain nodes that exist=20
>in the client layer network and are interconnected via 0 or=20
>more virtual links.
>>  4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies=20
>provided by each of server network domains, access and=20
>inter-domain links.
>>  5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that=20
>link. It can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
>>  6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208=20
>teminology  but (i) receiving virtual topology from the core =20
>network and requesting the set up of one of them or (ii)=20
>requesting the computation and establishment of a path=20
>accordingly to gien constraints in the core network and=20
>receiving the parameters characterizing such path. (ii) =3D=3D UNI.
>>  7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but=20
>able to deal with (i) and (ii) above.
>>  8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for=20
>signaling and routing messages exchange between Overlay and=20
>Core network. Routing information consists on virtual topology=20
>advertisement. When there is no routing adjacency across the=20
>interface it is equivalent to the GMPLS UNI defined in 4208.=20
>Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information=20
>related to path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected=20
>SRLG, path delay etc, either passed from OE to OC via=20
>signaling after the LSP establishment in the core network or=20
>from OC to OE to be used as path computation constraints, fall=20
>under the definition of signaling info and not routing info).
>>  9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the=20
>links between different core networks in the overlay model=20
>environment, i.e. Between border OEs. Same features of the ONI=20
>apply to this interface. Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new=20
>name is needed?
>>=20
>> + Statements
>>  1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build=20
>an overlay=20
>> topology for the client network domains  2. The overlay=20
>topology is comprised of:
>>     a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the=20
>server network domains). They can be PSC or LSC.
>>     b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server=20
>network domains)  =20
>>     c) virtual topology provided by the server network=20
>domains. Virtual Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) + Connectivity=20
>Matrix (with a set of parameters e.g. SRLG, optical=20
>impairments, delay etc for each entry) describing connectivity=20
>between access links and virtual links.
>>  3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy  of overlay=20
>> topologies with overlay/underlay relationships  4. In the context of=20
>> overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships=20
>are peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network=20
>integration  5. The overlay model assumes one instance for the=20
>client network and a separate instance for the server network=20
>and in the ONI case the server network also surreptitiously=20
>participates in the client network by injecting virtual=20
>topology information into it.
>>  6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over=20
>the ONI (it falls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency=20
>is in place between OC and OE).
>>=20
>> + Open issues/questions
>> =20
>>  1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about=20
>PCE and PCEP into the overlay framework context?
>>  2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
>>  3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?
>>=20
>> + Appendix:
>> Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>> 1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale=20
>because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs=20
>have the same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs
>> 2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is=20
>by having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in=20
>the middle of the virtual topology
>> 3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server=20
>domain switches, because, generally speaking:
>>   a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
>>   b)Real switches are named from different naming space
>>   c)real switches individually may not have sufficient=20
>resources to terminate virtual links (while a group of real=20
>switches collectively will have)
>>   d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual=20
>node have better scalability qualities
>> 4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real=20
>node, you need to keep in mind that real server domain=20
>switches are, generally speaking, blocking switches and as=20
>such must expose their connectivity matrices
>> 5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that=20
>could potentially go through a real server domain switch, the=20
>latter's connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so=20
>that the two services traversing the switch will not=20
>simultaneously fail if a single internal element shared by the=20
>services fails
>> 6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be=20
>addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with=20
>blocking switches, you will understand that there is=20
>absolutely no difference between a virtual node and real=20
>blocking real node.
>> 7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected=20
>to server network domain must be upgraded so that they could=20
>understand the connectivity matrices advertised by the border=20
>nodes describing connectivity constraints between access links=20
>and virtual links they terminate.
>>=20
>>=20
>> =20
>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>> DANIELE CECCARELLI
>> System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro
>>=20
>> Via E.Melen, 77
>> Genova, Italy
>> Phone +390106002512
>> Mobile +393346725750
>> daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>> www.ericsson.com
>>=20
>> This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive=20
>email on=20
>> the basis of the term set out at www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>=20
>=

From daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com  Wed Dec 19 06:52:58 2012
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From: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
To: Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>, Gert Grammel <ggrammel@juniper.net>, CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Hi Igor,

Just focusing on the virtual links for a while; i must admit that i'm a bit=
 confused by your last mail. Let's pick the figure i sent.

>OC1                               OC2
>  \    +---+IF2       IF3+---+    /
>   \IF1|OE1|-------------|OE2|IF4/
>       +---+             +---+
>
>A) Virtual link is from OC1 to OC2
>B) Virtual link is from IF1 to IF4
>C) Virtual link is from IF2 to IF3

According to the definition given:
"A virtual link is a potential path between two virtual or real network ele=
ments in a client layer"=20
I would say that a virtual link is from OC1 to OC2, which is A).

Then, from your latest definition:
" a potential path between two virtual or real server domain network elemen=
ts"
I would say that a virtual link can be either B) or C).

Then you speak about access links, which implies that the link between OC1 =
and OE1 has its own dignity and hence that the virtual link is C) in pictur=
e above. Now i have 2 questions:

Q1: can you confirm that a virtual link is C)? Then we need to update the d=
efinition of a virtual link removing any misleading reference to client/ser=
ver domain Network elements and speak about OCs and OEs. =20

Q2: if on the other side we considered the virtual link being B) (i.e. From=
 IF1 to IF4 hence with an "implicit" node connectivity matrix) which would =
be the drawbacks of this solution?


Thanks
Daniele





>-----Original Message-----
>From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com]=20
>Sent: luned=EC 17 dicembre 2012 21.12
>To: Gert Grammel; Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP
>Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>Gert,
>
>Please, see in line. I disagree with pretty much everything you say.=20
>Igor
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org]=20
>On Behalf Of Gert Grammel
>Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 8:27 AM
>To: Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP
>Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>Daniele,
>
>Thank you for summarizing the current state of discussion. To=20
>move forward and to encourage comments, let me point to some=20
>of the issues that are debated:
>
>1) Virtual Link: in the terminology statement a virtual link=20
>seems to connect two client elements.
>IB>> The definition says:
>"1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between=20
>two virtual or real network elements in a client layer", what=20
>makes you think that anyone ever applied that this is a path=20
>between client devices? The definition should say, though: " a=20
>potential path between two virtual or real server domain=20
>network elements"
>
> However later on the 3) virtual topology is composed of=20
>access links and virtual links. Hence. Virtual links connect=20
>server nodes, not client nodes.
>IB>> see above
>
> By doing so, segments (AL and VL) are created.
>
>2) The scalability consideration in the appendix for VL is=20
>based on terminology 1) rather than on virtual topology=20
>
>IB>> I completely disagree with this, see below
>
>3). This way it doesn't describe then the  scalability of a=20
>virtual topology (which doesn't necessitate a full mesh) but=20
>rather that of a virtual node (which implies a full=20
>connectivity matrix).
>
>To sum up:
>1) we have to come up with a crisp definition of a VL in a=20
>virtual topology that is different from a terminology 1) VL.=20
>Here is a gap
>2) A Model based on a vitual node or 'terminology 1) links'=20
>create n**2 problems on client side and does not scale.
>3) 'VNT'-virtual-links 3) and access links are supposed to=20
>address the scaling problem. We need to clean up our=20
>terminology. Otherwise we end up associating limitations of=20
>terminology 1) links with VNT-links that address those limitations.
>
>IB>> It seems to me that you completely misunderstand current=20
>IB>> definitions
>
>Now looking at the appendix it sadly reflects the terminology=20
>confusion and jumps to assessment and conclusions. That's unfortunate:
>
>The first line says:
>Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly,
>--> is it now about virtual nodes or virtual links or VNT links?
>IB>> Virtual Link Model includes access, inter-domain and=20
>virtual links=20
>IB>> but does not include virtual nodes
>
>2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is by=20
>having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the=20
>middle of the virtual topology
>--> that's why access links are so useful. They end at server nodes=20
>--> which are connected via virtual links
>
>IB>> A combination of access and virtual links alone *does not=20
>address N**2 problem*.
>Consider 1000 client devices connected via 1000 access links=20
>to the network that need to be fully interconnected. You will=20
>need 1000000 VLs to do so. You need to have one or more=20
>Virtual Nodes in the middle of the virtual topology to solve=20
>this issue. Overlay Network Topology is no different from real=20
>network topology, and real network topologies do include Ps,=20
>not just PEs=20
>=20
>3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain=20
>switches, because, generally speaking:
>--> in case of VNT-VLs no intermediate nodes are necessarily required
>IB>> See  above, IMO you are dead wrong
>
>4.  --> No need to comment, this way doesn't scale anyway.
>IB>> ONTs with virtual nodes scale no worse that real network=20
>topologies
>
>5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could=20
>potentially go through a real server domain switch, the=20
>latter's connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so=20
>that the two services traversing the switch will not=20
>simultaneously fail if a single internal element shared by the=20
>services fails
>--> who is 'you' that computes? A client selects among VNT=20
>virtual links based on exposed SRLGs, VLs are computed by the=20
>server with full knowledge of constraints. So what does an=20
>'internal' SRLG mean to a server path computation?
>
>IB>> You is the client path computer. If the two paths are=20
>going through=20
>IB>> the same node, they may overlap inside the node, which means they=20
>IB>> can be brought down by a single network failure. That's why you=20
>IB>> need to expose  node's internal SRLGs or try to find node=20
>disjoint=20
>IB>> paths (which may not be available)
>
>6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be=20
>addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with=20
>blocking switches, you will understand that there is=20
>absolutely no difference between a virtual node and real=20
>blocking real node.
>--> I suggest to model a complete network of say 5 nodes in a=20
>single VN and compare it with the model of a single real node.
>
>IB>> Please, do that
>
>--> The assessments made have used a terminology definition=20
>that doesn't really capture the case made for VNT-VLs.
>That's why I would have had appreciated to split definitions=20
>and work items agreed among a group from individual=20
>assessments in separate emails.
>Nevertheless I consider the first part of your email (all=20
>except the appendix) as a good starting point for further=20
>clarification.
>
>Gert
>________________________________________
>From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Daniele Ceccarelli
>Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 12:17:08 PM
>To: CCAMP
>Subject: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>Dear CCAMPers,
>
>In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the Overlay=20
>model framework and related works took place. Some discussions=20
>led to some sort of agreemet among a small group of people,=20
>some others to a set a viable options, some others to totally=20
>open issues. I tried to summarize the output of such=20
>discussions below so to progress the discussions into a single=20
>thread on the WG ML.
>
>Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a well=20
>shaped and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to provide the=20
>basis for starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea=20
>(step 1) instead of starting it from scratch (step 0).
>
>In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a proposal=20
>of the overlay scenario.
>
>Thanks,
>Daniele
>
>+ Disclaimer:
> 1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work=20
>can be extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.
>
>+ Terminology:
>
> 1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between=20
>two virtual or real network elements in a client layer network=20
> that is maintained/controlled in and by the server domain=20
>control plane (and as such cannot transport any traffic/data=20
>and protected from being de-provisioned) and which can be=20
>instantiated in the data plane (and then can=20
>carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving previously=20
>advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.
> 2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or=20
>more server network  domain nodes that are collectively=20
>represented to the clients as a single node that exists in the=20
>client layer network and is capable of terminating of access,=20
>inter-domain and virtual links.
> 3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one=20
>or more virtual or real server network domain nodes that exist=20
>in the client layer network and are interconnected via 0 or=20
>more virtual links.
> 4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies=20
>provided by each of server network domains, access and=20
>inter-domain links.
> 5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that=20
>link. It can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
> 6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208=20
>teminology  but (i) receiving virtual topology from the core =20
>network and requesting the set up of one of them or (ii)=20
>requesting the computation and establishment of a path=20
>accordingly to gien constraints in the core network and=20
>receiving the parameters characterizing such path. (ii) =3D=3D UNI.
> 7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but=20
>able to deal with (i) and (ii) above.
> 8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for=20
>signaling and routing messages exchange between Overlay and=20
>Core network. Routing information consists on virtual topology=20
>advertisement. When there is no routing adjacency across the=20
>interface it is equivalent to the GMPLS UNI defined in 4208.=20
>Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information=20
>related to path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected=20
>SRLG, path delay etc, either passed from OE to OC via=20
>signaling after the LSP establishment in the core network or=20
>from OC to OE to be used as path computation constraints, fall=20
>under the definition of signaling info and not routing info).
> 9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the=20
>links between different core networks in the overlay model=20
>environment, i.e. Between border OEs. Same features of the ONI=20
>apply to this interface. Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new=20
>name is needed?
>
>+ Statements
> 1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build an=20
>overlay topology for the client network domains  2. The=20
>overlay topology is comprised of:
>    a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the server=20
>network domains). They can be PSC or LSC.
>    b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server=20
>network domains)
>    c) virtual topology provided by the server network=20
>domains. Virtual Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) + Connectivity=20
>Matrix (with a set of parameters e.g. SRLG, optical=20
>impairments, delay etc for each entry) describing connectivity=20
>between access links and virtual links.
> 3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy  of=20
>overlay topologies with overlay/underlay relationships  4. In=20
>the context of overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer=20
>relationships are peripheral at best, it is all about=20
>horizontal network integration  5. The overlay model assumes=20
>one instance for the client network and a separate instance=20
>for the server network and in the ONI case the server network=20
>also surreptitiously participates in the client network by=20
>injecting virtual topology information into it.
> 6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over=20
>the ONI (it falls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency=20
>is in place between OC and OE).
>
>+ Open issues/questions
>
> 1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about PCE=20
>and PCEP into the overlay framework context?
> 2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
> 3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?
>
>+ Appendix:
>Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale=20
>because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs=20
>have the same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs
>2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is by=20
>having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the=20
>middle of the virtual topology
>3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain=20
>switches, because, generally speaking:
>  a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
>  b)Real switches are named from different naming space
>  c)real switches individually may not have sufficient=20
>resources to terminate virtual links (while a group of real=20
>switches collectively will have)
>  d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual=20
>node have better scalability qualities
>4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real node,=20
>you need to keep in mind that real server domain switches are,=20
>generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must expose=20
>their connectivity matrices
>5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could=20
>potentially go through a real server domain switch, the=20
>latter's connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so=20
>that the two services traversing the switch will not=20
>simultaneously fail if a single internal element shared by the=20
>services fails
>6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be=20
>addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with=20
>blocking switches, you will understand that there is=20
>absolutely no difference between a virtual node and real=20
>blocking real node.
>7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected to=20
>server network domain must be upgraded so that they could=20
>understand the connectivity matrices advertised by the border=20
>nodes describing connectivity constraints between access links=20
>and virtual links they terminate.
>
>
>
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>DANIELE CECCARELLI
>System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro
>
>Via E.Melen, 77
>Genova, Italy
>Phone +390106002512
>Mobile +393346725750
>daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>www.ericsson.com
>
>This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive=20
>email on the basis of the term set out at=20
>www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>CCAMP mailing list
>CCAMP@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>=

From lberger@labn.net  Wed Dec 19 07:09:48 2012
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Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 10:09:21 -0500
From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Daniele,
	see below.


On 12/19/2012 5:56 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
> Hi Lou,
> 
> Plese find replies in line.
> 
> BR
> Daniele 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net] 
>> Sent: lunedì 17 dicembre 2012 20.45
>> To: Daniele Ceccarelli
>> Cc: CCAMP
>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>
>>
>> Daniele,
>> 	Thanks for getting this on-list discussion going.  I 
>> have some comments and questions:
>>
>> - So what's a "client layer network" in this context?  Perhaps 
>> you mean OC or "(overlay) customer layer"?
> 
> Yes. The terms client layer and server layer are reminescences to be corrected.
> 
>>
>> - So what's a "server layer network" in this context?  Perhaps 
>> you mean OE or "(overlay) provider layer"?
> 
> Again correct
> 
>>
>> - For OC, I'd thing referring back to a CE in the VPN context, 
>> and likewise to a PE for an OE, is helpful context.
> 
> In the case of the interface we generally define the ONI as an
> overlay interface that in a particular case is called UNI. 

I have no idea what this means.  I suspect it relates to comments below,
so will discuss there.

> I would
> apply the same method: those nodes are called Overlay Customer and
> Overlay Edge and in the particular case of VPNs they are the CE and
> PE respectively. What about that?
> 

How about:

An OC is analogous to an L3VPN CE, and an OE is analogous to an L3VPN PE
(with a provider based VPN).

>>
>> - As you mention in the Appendix, (from the OC perspective) 
>> there is no difference between a virtual and real node (and 
>> presumably link as well).  Given this and your comment in 8, 
>> that the ONI can take the form of a UNI or include both 
>> signaling and routing (i.e., a peer/I-NNI or
>> E-NNI) what value is there in introducing the ONI term?  Said 
>> another way, there's no specific term for the interface 
>> between a CE and PE in L3VPNs, so why do we need to introduce 
>> one in this context?
> 
> We gave a name to the UNI, why don't giving to the ONI?

Because redundant/unnecessary terminology only obfuscates.

Why not customer interface/link? This has been sufficient for L3VPNs.

> 
>>
>> I think this same comment probably holds for the O-NNI (e.g., 
>> what's the name of the interface between providers which 
>> support L3VPN handoffs?)...
> 
> I would suggest giving a name to that interface also in order to distinguish between an "internal" and an "external" link when multiple overlay provider network domains are present.
> 

How about inter-provider interface/link? Again, this has been sufficient
for L3VPNs.

Lou

>>
>> Much thanks,
>> Lou
>>
>> On 12/17/2012 6:17 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
>>> Dear CCAMPers,
>>>
>>> In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the 
>> Overlay model framework and related works took place. Some 
>> discussions led to some sort of agreemet among a small group 
>> of people, some others to a set a viable options, some others 
>> to totally open issues. I tried to summarize the output of 
>> such discussions below so to progress the discussions into a 
>> single thread on the WG ML.
>>>
>>> Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a 
>> well shaped and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to 
>> provide the basis for starting a discussion from a barely 
>> shaped idea (step 1) instead of starting it from scratch (step 0).
>>>
>>> In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a 
>> proposal of the overlay scenario.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Daniele
>>>
>>> + Disclaimer:
>>>  1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work 
>> can be extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.
>>>
>>> + Terminology:
>>>
>>>  1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between 
>> two virtual or real network elements in a client layer network 
>> that is maintained/controlled in and by the server domain 
>> control plane (and as such cannot transport any traffic/data 
>> and protected from being de-provisioned) and which can be 
>> instantiated in the data plane (and then can 
>> carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving previously 
>> advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.
>>>  2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or 
>> more server network  domain nodes that are collectively 
>> represented to the clients as a single node that exists in the 
>> client layer network and is capable of terminating of access, 
>> inter-domain and virtual links.
>>>  3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one 
>> or more virtual or real server network domain nodes that exist 
>> in the client layer network and are interconnected via 0 or 
>> more virtual links.
>>>  4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies 
>> provided by each of server network domains, access and 
>> inter-domain links.
>>>  5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that 
>> link. It can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
>>>  6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208 
>> teminology  but (i) receiving virtual topology from the core  
>> network and requesting the set up of one of them or (ii) 
>> requesting the computation and establishment of a path 
>> accordingly to gien constraints in the core network and 
>> receiving the parameters characterizing such path. (ii) == UNI.
>>>  7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but 
>> able to deal with (i) and (ii) above.
>>>  8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for 
>> signaling and routing messages exchange between Overlay and 
>> Core network. Routing information consists on virtual topology 
>> advertisement. When there is no routing adjacency across the 
>> interface it is equivalent to the GMPLS UNI defined in 4208. 
>> Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information 
>> related to path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected 
>> SRLG, path delay etc, either passed from OE to OC via 
>> signaling after the LSP establishment in the core network or 
>>from OC to OE to be used as path computation constraints, fall 
>> under the definition of signaling info and not routing info).
>>>  9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the 
>> links between different core networks in the overlay model 
>> environment, i.e. Between border OEs. Same features of the ONI 
>> apply to this interface. Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new 
>> name is needed?
>>>
>>> + Statements
>>>  1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build 
>> an overlay 
>>> topology for the client network domains  2. The overlay 
>> topology is comprised of:
>>>     a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the 
>> server network domains). They can be PSC or LSC.
>>>     b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server 
>> network domains)   
>>>     c) virtual topology provided by the server network 
>> domains. Virtual Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) + Connectivity 
>> Matrix (with a set of parameters e.g. SRLG, optical 
>> impairments, delay etc for each entry) describing connectivity 
>> between access links and virtual links.
>>>  3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy  of overlay 
>>> topologies with overlay/underlay relationships  4. In the context of 
>>> overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships 
>> are peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network 
>> integration  5. The overlay model assumes one instance for the 
>> client network and a separate instance for the server network 
>> and in the ONI case the server network also surreptitiously 
>> participates in the client network by injecting virtual 
>> topology information into it.
>>>  6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over 
>> the ONI (it falls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency 
>> is in place between OC and OE).
>>>
>>> + Open issues/questions
>>>  
>>>  1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about 
>> PCE and PCEP into the overlay framework context?
>>>  2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
>>>  3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?
>>>
>>> + Appendix:
>>> Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>>> 1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale 
>> because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs 
>> have the same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs
>>> 2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is 
>> by having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in 
>> the middle of the virtual topology
>>> 3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server 
>> domain switches, because, generally speaking:
>>>   a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
>>>   b)Real switches are named from different naming space
>>>   c)real switches individually may not have sufficient 
>> resources to terminate virtual links (while a group of real 
>> switches collectively will have)
>>>   d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual 
>> node have better scalability qualities
>>> 4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real 
>> node, you need to keep in mind that real server domain 
>> switches are, generally speaking, blocking switches and as 
>> such must expose their connectivity matrices
>>> 5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that 
>> could potentially go through a real server domain switch, the 
>> latter's connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so 
>> that the two services traversing the switch will not 
>> simultaneously fail if a single internal element shared by the 
>> services fails
>>> 6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be 
>> addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with 
>> blocking switches, you will understand that there is 
>> absolutely no difference between a virtual node and real 
>> blocking real node.
>>> 7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected 
>> to server network domain must be upgraded so that they could 
>> understand the connectivity matrices advertised by the border 
>> nodes describing connectivity constraints between access links 
>> and virtual links they terminate.
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>> ===================================
>>> DANIELE CECCARELLI
>>> System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro
>>>
>>> Via E.Melen, 77
>>> Genova, Italy
>>> Phone +390106002512
>>> Mobile +393346725750
>>> daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>>> www.ericsson.com
>>>
>>> This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive 
>> email on 
>>> the basis of the term set out at www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>
>>
> 
> 
> 

From daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com  Wed Dec 19 07:32:05 2012
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From: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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 Lou, it's just a matter of convenience.

Why should is say:=20
"customer interface/link between an OE and an OC in the overlay model conte=
xt supporting both signaling and routing message exchange that is called UN=
I when only signaling is supported"

...when i could simply say: ONI? :)

BR
Daniele

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]=20
>Sent: mercoled=EC 19 dicembre 2012 16.09
>To: Daniele Ceccarelli
>Cc: CCAMP
>Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>Daniele,
>	see below.
>
>
>On 12/19/2012 5:56 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
>> Hi Lou,
>>=20
>> Plese find replies in line.
>>=20
>> BR
>> Daniele
>>=20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
>>> Sent: luned=EC 17 dicembre 2012 20.45
>>> To: Daniele Ceccarelli
>>> Cc: CCAMP
>>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>>
>>>
>>> Daniele,
>>> 	Thanks for getting this on-list discussion going.  I have some=20
>>> comments and questions:
>>>
>>> - So what's a "client layer network" in this context?  Perhaps you=20
>>> mean OC or "(overlay) customer layer"?
>>=20
>> Yes. The terms client layer and server layer are=20
>reminescences to be corrected.
>>=20
>>>
>>> - So what's a "server layer network" in this context?  Perhaps you=20
>>> mean OE or "(overlay) provider layer"?
>>=20
>> Again correct
>>=20
>>>
>>> - For OC, I'd thing referring back to a CE in the VPN context, and=20
>>> likewise to a PE for an OE, is helpful context.
>>=20
>> In the case of the interface we generally define the ONI as=20
>an overlay=20
>> interface that in a particular case is called UNI.
>
>I have no idea what this means.  I suspect it relates to=20
>comments below, so will discuss there.
>
>> I would
>> apply the same method: those nodes are called Overlay Customer and=20
>> Overlay Edge and in the particular case of VPNs they are the=20
>CE and PE=20
>> respectively. What about that?
>>=20
>
>How about:
>
>An OC is analogous to an L3VPN CE, and an OE is analogous to=20
>an L3VPN PE (with a provider based VPN).
>
>>>
>>> - As you mention in the Appendix, (from the OC perspective)=20
>there is=20
>>> no difference between a virtual and real node (and=20
>presumably link as=20
>>> well).  Given this and your comment in 8, that the ONI can take the=20
>>> form of a UNI or include both signaling and routing (i.e., a=20
>>> peer/I-NNI or
>>> E-NNI) what value is there in introducing the ONI term? =20
>Said another=20
>>> way, there's no specific term for the interface between a CE and PE=20
>>> in L3VPNs, so why do we need to introduce one in this context?
>>=20
>> We gave a name to the UNI, why don't giving to the ONI?
>
>Because redundant/unnecessary terminology only obfuscates.
>
>Why not customer interface/link? This has been sufficient for L3VPNs.
>
>>=20
>>>
>>> I think this same comment probably holds for the O-NNI=20
>(e.g., what's=20
>>> the name of the interface between providers which support L3VPN=20
>>> handoffs?)...
>>=20
>> I would suggest giving a name to that interface also in=20
>order to distinguish between an "internal" and an "external"=20
>link when multiple overlay provider network domains are present.
>>=20
>
>How about inter-provider interface/link? Again, this has been=20
>sufficient for L3VPNs.
>
>Lou
>
>>>
>>> Much thanks,
>>> Lou
>>>
>>> On 12/17/2012 6:17 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
>>>> Dear CCAMPers,
>>>>
>>>> In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the
>>> Overlay model framework and related works took place. Some=20
>>> discussions led to some sort of agreemet among a small group of=20
>>> people, some others to a set a viable options, some others=20
>to totally=20
>>> open issues. I tried to summarize the output of such discussions=20
>>> below so to progress the discussions into a single thread on the WG=20
>>> ML.
>>>>
>>>> Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a
>>> well shaped and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to provide the=20
>>> basis for starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea (step 1)=20
>>> instead of starting it from scratch (step 0).
>>>>
>>>> In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a
>>> proposal of the overlay scenario.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Daniele
>>>>
>>>> + Disclaimer:
>>>>  1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work
>>> can be extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.
>>>>
>>>> + Terminology:
>>>>
>>>>  1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between
>>> two virtual or real network elements in a client layer network that=20
>>> is maintained/controlled in and by the server domain control plane=20
>>> (and as such cannot transport any traffic/data and protected from=20
>>> being de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the=20
>data plane=20
>>> (and then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving=20
>>> previously advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.
>>>>  2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or
>>> more server network  domain nodes that are collectively represented=20
>>> to the clients as a single node that exists in the client layer=20
>>> network and is capable of terminating of access, inter-domain and=20
>>> virtual links.
>>>>  3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one
>>> or more virtual or real server network domain nodes that=20
>exist in the=20
>>> client layer network and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual=20
>>> links.
>>>>  4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies
>>> provided by each of server network domains, access and inter-domain=20
>>> links.
>>>>  5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that
>>> link. It can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
>>>>  6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208
>>> teminology  but (i) receiving virtual topology from the=20
>core network=20
>>> and requesting the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting the=20
>>> computation and establishment of a path accordingly to gien=20
>>> constraints in the core network and receiving the parameters=20
>>> characterizing such path. (ii) =3D=3D UNI.
>>>>  7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but
>>> able to deal with (i) and (ii) above.
>>>>  8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for
>>> signaling and routing messages exchange between Overlay and  Core=20
>>>network. Routing information consists on virtual topology =20
>>>advertisement. When there is no routing adjacency across the =20
>>>interface it is equivalent to the GMPLS UNI defined in 4208.
>>> Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information  related=20
>>>to path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected  SRLG,=20
>path delay=20
>>>etc, either passed from OE to OC via  signaling after the LSP=20
>>>establishment in the core network or from OC to OE to be=20
>used as path=20
>>>computation constraints, fall  under the definition of=20
>signaling info=20
>>>and not routing info).
>>>>  9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the
>>> links between different core networks in the overlay model=20
>>> environment, i.e. Between border OEs. Same features of the=20
>ONI apply=20
>>> to this interface. Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name=20
>is needed?
>>>>
>>>> + Statements
>>>>  1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build
>>> an overlay
>>>> topology for the client network domains  2. The overlay
>>> topology is comprised of:
>>>>     a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the
>>> server network domains). They can be PSC or LSC.
>>>>     b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server
>>> network domains)  =20
>>>>     c) virtual topology provided by the server network
>>> domains. Virtual Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) + Connectivity Matrix=20
>>> (with a set of parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments, delay etc=20
>>> for each entry) describing connectivity between access links and=20
>>> virtual links.
>>>>  3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy =20
>of overlay=20
>>>> topologies with overlay/underlay relationships  4. In the=20
>context of=20
>>>> overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships
>>> are peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network=20
>>> integration  5. The overlay model assumes one instance for=20
>the client=20
>>> network and a separate instance for the server network and=20
>in the ONI=20
>>> case the server network also surreptitiously participates in the=20
>>> client network by injecting virtual topology information into it.
>>>>  6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over
>>> the ONI (it falls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency is in=20
>>> place between OC and OE).
>>>>
>>>> + Open issues/questions
>>>> =20
>>>>  1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about
>>> PCE and PCEP into the overlay framework context?
>>>>  2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
>>>>  3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?
>>>>
>>>> + Appendix:
>>>> Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>>>> 1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale=20
>>> because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs=20
>have the=20
>>> same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs
>>>> 2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is=20
>>> by having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the=20
>>> middle of the virtual topology
>>>> 3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server=20
>>> domain switches, because, generally speaking:
>>>>   a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
>>>>   b)Real switches are named from different naming space
>>>>   c)real switches individually may not have sufficient
>>> resources to terminate virtual links (while a group of real=20
>switches=20
>>> collectively will have)
>>>>   d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual
>>> node have better scalability qualities
>>>> 4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real=20
>>> node, you need to keep in mind that real server domain=20
>switches are,=20
>>> generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must expose their=20
>>> connectivity matrices
>>>> 5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that=20
>>> could potentially go through a real server domain switch, the=20
>>> latter's connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so that=20
>>> the two services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail=20
>>> if a single internal element shared by the services fails
>>>> 6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be=20
>>> addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking=20
>>> switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no=20
>difference=20
>>> between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
>>>> 7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected=20
>>> to server network domain must be upgraded so that they could=20
>>> understand the connectivity matrices advertised by the border nodes=20
>>> describing connectivity constraints between access links=20
>and virtual=20
>>> links they terminate.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =20
>>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>>> DANIELE CECCARELLI
>>>> System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro
>>>>
>>>> Via E.Melen, 77
>>>> Genova, Italy
>>>> Phone +390106002512
>>>> Mobile +393346725750
>>>> daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>>>> www.ericsson.com
>>>>
>>>> This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive
>>> email on
>>>> the basis of the term set out at www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>>
>>>
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=

From sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com  Wed Dec 19 07:47:13 2012
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From: "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)" <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 16:46:48 +0100
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: [CCAMP] R:  Overlay model framework and context
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Hi Daniele,

Thanks a lot for your effort to summarize mail exchange.

About the content and definitions , I would support the Lou position.
I think that in this context many of the concepts and definitions have been=
 proposed , are already present in the IETF document.

ONI definition and OE and OC definitions surely does not help to clarify sc=
enarios that has been already debated in the VPN context .

I support UNI only definition without to complicate proliferating with othe=
r interface definitions, and the usage of CE ,PE for nodes.
Moreover I have also perplexity about the definition of Virtual Link and Vi=
rtual Topology.

What are the difference and the added values to have very similar definitio=
ns to what already well defined in the MRN context ?

Thanks again for your effort.

Ciao
Sergio

Belotti Sergio - System Architect
ALCATEL-LUCENT  Optics Division

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] Per conto di Dan=
iele Ceccarelli
Inviato: mercoled=EC 19 dicembre 2012 16.32
A: Lou Berger
Cc: CCAMP
Oggetto: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context

 Lou, it's just a matter of convenience.

Why should is say:=20
"customer interface/link between an OE and an OC in the overlay model conte=
xt supporting both signaling and routing message exchange that is called UN=
I when only signaling is supported"

...when i could simply say: ONI? :)

BR
Daniele

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]=20
>Sent: mercoled=EC 19 dicembre 2012 16.09
>To: Daniele Ceccarelli
>Cc: CCAMP
>Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>Daniele,
>	see below.
>
>
>On 12/19/2012 5:56 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
>> Hi Lou,
>>=20
>> Plese find replies in line.
>>=20
>> BR
>> Daniele
>>=20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
>>> Sent: luned=EC 17 dicembre 2012 20.45
>>> To: Daniele Ceccarelli
>>> Cc: CCAMP
>>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>>
>>>
>>> Daniele,
>>> 	Thanks for getting this on-list discussion going.  I have some=20
>>> comments and questions:
>>>
>>> - So what's a "client layer network" in this context?  Perhaps you=20
>>> mean OC or "(overlay) customer layer"?
>>=20
>> Yes. The terms client layer and server layer are=20
>reminescences to be corrected.
>>=20
>>>
>>> - So what's a "server layer network" in this context?  Perhaps you=20
>>> mean OE or "(overlay) provider layer"?
>>=20
>> Again correct
>>=20
>>>
>>> - For OC, I'd thing referring back to a CE in the VPN context, and=20
>>> likewise to a PE for an OE, is helpful context.
>>=20
>> In the case of the interface we generally define the ONI as=20
>an overlay=20
>> interface that in a particular case is called UNI.
>
>I have no idea what this means.  I suspect it relates to=20
>comments below, so will discuss there.
>
>> I would
>> apply the same method: those nodes are called Overlay Customer and=20
>> Overlay Edge and in the particular case of VPNs they are the=20
>CE and PE=20
>> respectively. What about that?
>>=20
>
>How about:
>
>An OC is analogous to an L3VPN CE, and an OE is analogous to=20
>an L3VPN PE (with a provider based VPN).
>
>>>
>>> - As you mention in the Appendix, (from the OC perspective)=20
>there is=20
>>> no difference between a virtual and real node (and=20
>presumably link as=20
>>> well).  Given this and your comment in 8, that the ONI can take the=20
>>> form of a UNI or include both signaling and routing (i.e., a=20
>>> peer/I-NNI or
>>> E-NNI) what value is there in introducing the ONI term? =20
>Said another=20
>>> way, there's no specific term for the interface between a CE and PE=20
>>> in L3VPNs, so why do we need to introduce one in this context?
>>=20
>> We gave a name to the UNI, why don't giving to the ONI?
>
>Because redundant/unnecessary terminology only obfuscates.
>
>Why not customer interface/link? This has been sufficient for L3VPNs.
>
>>=20
>>>
>>> I think this same comment probably holds for the O-NNI=20
>(e.g., what's=20
>>> the name of the interface between providers which support L3VPN=20
>>> handoffs?)...
>>=20
>> I would suggest giving a name to that interface also in=20
>order to distinguish between an "internal" and an "external"=20
>link when multiple overlay provider network domains are present.
>>=20
>
>How about inter-provider interface/link? Again, this has been=20
>sufficient for L3VPNs.
>
>Lou
>
>>>
>>> Much thanks,
>>> Lou
>>>
>>> On 12/17/2012 6:17 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
>>>> Dear CCAMPers,
>>>>
>>>> In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the
>>> Overlay model framework and related works took place. Some=20
>>> discussions led to some sort of agreemet among a small group of=20
>>> people, some others to a set a viable options, some others=20
>to totally=20
>>> open issues. I tried to summarize the output of such discussions=20
>>> below so to progress the discussions into a single thread on the WG=20
>>> ML.
>>>>
>>>> Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a
>>> well shaped and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to provide the=20
>>> basis for starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea (step 1)=20
>>> instead of starting it from scratch (step 0).
>>>>
>>>> In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a
>>> proposal of the overlay scenario.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Daniele
>>>>
>>>> + Disclaimer:
>>>>  1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work
>>> can be extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.
>>>>
>>>> + Terminology:
>>>>
>>>>  1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between
>>> two virtual or real network elements in a client layer network that=20
>>> is maintained/controlled in and by the server domain control plane=20
>>> (and as such cannot transport any traffic/data and protected from=20
>>> being de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the=20
>data plane=20
>>> (and then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving=20
>>> previously advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.
>>>>  2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or
>>> more server network  domain nodes that are collectively represented=20
>>> to the clients as a single node that exists in the client layer=20
>>> network and is capable of terminating of access, inter-domain and=20
>>> virtual links.
>>>>  3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one
>>> or more virtual or real server network domain nodes that=20
>exist in the=20
>>> client layer network and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual=20
>>> links.
>>>>  4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies
>>> provided by each of server network domains, access and inter-domain=20
>>> links.
>>>>  5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that
>>> link. It can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
>>>>  6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208
>>> teminology  but (i) receiving virtual topology from the=20
>core network=20
>>> and requesting the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting the=20
>>> computation and establishment of a path accordingly to gien=20
>>> constraints in the core network and receiving the parameters=20
>>> characterizing such path. (ii) =3D=3D UNI.
>>>>  7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but
>>> able to deal with (i) and (ii) above.
>>>>  8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for
>>> signaling and routing messages exchange between Overlay and  Core=20
>>>network. Routing information consists on virtual topology =20
>>>advertisement. When there is no routing adjacency across the =20
>>>interface it is equivalent to the GMPLS UNI defined in 4208.
>>> Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information  related=20
>>>to path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected  SRLG,=20
>path delay=20
>>>etc, either passed from OE to OC via  signaling after the LSP=20
>>>establishment in the core network or from OC to OE to be=20
>used as path=20
>>>computation constraints, fall  under the definition of=20
>signaling info=20
>>>and not routing info).
>>>>  9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the
>>> links between different core networks in the overlay model=20
>>> environment, i.e. Between border OEs. Same features of the=20
>ONI apply=20
>>> to this interface. Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name=20
>is needed?
>>>>
>>>> + Statements
>>>>  1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build
>>> an overlay
>>>> topology for the client network domains  2. The overlay
>>> topology is comprised of:
>>>>     a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the
>>> server network domains). They can be PSC or LSC.
>>>>     b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server
>>> network domains)  =20
>>>>     c) virtual topology provided by the server network
>>> domains. Virtual Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) + Connectivity Matrix=20
>>> (with a set of parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments, delay etc=20
>>> for each entry) describing connectivity between access links and=20
>>> virtual links.
>>>>  3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy =20
>of overlay=20
>>>> topologies with overlay/underlay relationships  4. In the=20
>context of=20
>>>> overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships
>>> are peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network=20
>>> integration  5. The overlay model assumes one instance for=20
>the client=20
>>> network and a separate instance for the server network and=20
>in the ONI=20
>>> case the server network also surreptitiously participates in the=20
>>> client network by injecting virtual topology information into it.
>>>>  6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over
>>> the ONI (it falls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency is in=20
>>> place between OC and OE).
>>>>
>>>> + Open issues/questions
>>>> =20
>>>>  1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about
>>> PCE and PCEP into the overlay framework context?
>>>>  2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
>>>>  3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?
>>>>
>>>> + Appendix:
>>>> Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>>>> 1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale=20
>>> because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs=20
>have the=20
>>> same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs
>>>> 2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is=20
>>> by having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the=20
>>> middle of the virtual topology
>>>> 3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server=20
>>> domain switches, because, generally speaking:
>>>>   a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
>>>>   b)Real switches are named from different naming space
>>>>   c)real switches individually may not have sufficient
>>> resources to terminate virtual links (while a group of real=20
>switches=20
>>> collectively will have)
>>>>   d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual
>>> node have better scalability qualities
>>>> 4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real=20
>>> node, you need to keep in mind that real server domain=20
>switches are,=20
>>> generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must expose their=20
>>> connectivity matrices
>>>> 5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that=20
>>> could potentially go through a real server domain switch, the=20
>>> latter's connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so that=20
>>> the two services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail=20
>>> if a single internal element shared by the services fails
>>>> 6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be=20
>>> addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking=20
>>> switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no=20
>difference=20
>>> between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
>>>> 7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected=20
>>> to server network domain must be upgraded so that they could=20
>>> understand the connectivity matrices advertised by the border nodes=20
>>> describing connectivity constraints between access links=20
>and virtual=20
>>> links they terminate.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =20
>>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>>> DANIELE CECCARELLI
>>>> System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro
>>>>
>>>> Via E.Melen, 77
>>>> Genova, Italy
>>>> Phone +390106002512
>>>> Mobile +393346725750
>>>> daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>>>> www.ericsson.com
>>>>
>>>> This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive
>>> email on
>>>> the basis of the term set out at www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>>
>>>
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>
_______________________________________________
CCAMP mailing list
CCAMP@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

From lberger@labn.net  Wed Dec 19 07:54:22 2012
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Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 10:53:50 -0500
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Daniele,
	If ONI is a superset (i.e., covers all cases), what's the difference.
So the terminology options are:

For the signaling+routing(normal case):
	LB) customer interface with signaling and routing
	DC) ONI with signaling and routing
For the UNI case:
 	LB) customer interface with UNI
	DC) ONI with UNI

Right?

Lou

On 12/19/2012 10:32 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
>  Lou, it's just a matter of convenience.
> 
> Why should is say: 
> "customer interface/link between an OE and an OC in the overlay model context supporting both signaling and routing message exchange that is called UNI when only signaling is supported"
> 
> ...when i could simply say: ONI? :)
> 
> BR
> Daniele
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net] 
>> Sent: mercoledì 19 dicembre 2012 16.09
>> To: Daniele Ceccarelli
>> Cc: CCAMP
>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>
>> Daniele,
>> 	see below.
>>
>>
>> On 12/19/2012 5:56 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
>>> Hi Lou,
>>>
>>> Plese find replies in line.
>>>
>>> BR
>>> Daniele
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
>>>> Sent: lunedì 17 dicembre 2012 20.45
>>>> To: Daniele Ceccarelli
>>>> Cc: CCAMP
>>>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Daniele,
>>>> 	Thanks for getting this on-list discussion going.  I have some 
>>>> comments and questions:
>>>>
>>>> - So what's a "client layer network" in this context?  Perhaps you 
>>>> mean OC or "(overlay) customer layer"?
>>>
>>> Yes. The terms client layer and server layer are 
>> reminescences to be corrected.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> - So what's a "server layer network" in this context?  Perhaps you 
>>>> mean OE or "(overlay) provider layer"?
>>>
>>> Again correct
>>>
>>>>
>>>> - For OC, I'd thing referring back to a CE in the VPN context, and 
>>>> likewise to a PE for an OE, is helpful context.
>>>
>>> In the case of the interface we generally define the ONI as 
>> an overlay 
>>> interface that in a particular case is called UNI.
>>
>> I have no idea what this means.  I suspect it relates to 
>> comments below, so will discuss there.
>>
>>> I would
>>> apply the same method: those nodes are called Overlay Customer and 
>>> Overlay Edge and in the particular case of VPNs they are the 
>> CE and PE 
>>> respectively. What about that?
>>>
>>
>> How about:
>>
>> An OC is analogous to an L3VPN CE, and an OE is analogous to 
>> an L3VPN PE (with a provider based VPN).
>>
>>>>
>>>> - As you mention in the Appendix, (from the OC perspective) 
>> there is 
>>>> no difference between a virtual and real node (and 
>> presumably link as 
>>>> well).  Given this and your comment in 8, that the ONI can take the 
>>>> form of a UNI or include both signaling and routing (i.e., a 
>>>> peer/I-NNI or
>>>> E-NNI) what value is there in introducing the ONI term?  
>> Said another 
>>>> way, there's no specific term for the interface between a CE and PE 
>>>> in L3VPNs, so why do we need to introduce one in this context?
>>>
>>> We gave a name to the UNI, why don't giving to the ONI?
>>
>> Because redundant/unnecessary terminology only obfuscates.
>>
>> Why not customer interface/link? This has been sufficient for L3VPNs.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think this same comment probably holds for the O-NNI 
>> (e.g., what's 
>>>> the name of the interface between providers which support L3VPN 
>>>> handoffs?)...
>>>
>>> I would suggest giving a name to that interface also in 
>> order to distinguish between an "internal" and an "external" 
>> link when multiple overlay provider network domains are present.
>>>
>>
>> How about inter-provider interface/link? Again, this has been 
>> sufficient for L3VPNs.
>>
>> Lou
>>
>>>>
>>>> Much thanks,
>>>> Lou
>>>>
>>>> On 12/17/2012 6:17 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
>>>>> Dear CCAMPers,
>>>>>
>>>>> In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the
>>>> Overlay model framework and related works took place. Some 
>>>> discussions led to some sort of agreemet among a small group of 
>>>> people, some others to a set a viable options, some others 
>> to totally 
>>>> open issues. I tried to summarize the output of such discussions 
>>>> below so to progress the discussions into a single thread on the WG 
>>>> ML.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a
>>>> well shaped and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to provide the 
>>>> basis for starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea (step 1) 
>>>> instead of starting it from scratch (step 0).
>>>>>
>>>>> In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a
>>>> proposal of the overlay scenario.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Daniele
>>>>>
>>>>> + Disclaimer:
>>>>>  1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work
>>>> can be extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.
>>>>>
>>>>> + Terminology:
>>>>>
>>>>>  1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between
>>>> two virtual or real network elements in a client layer network that 
>>>> is maintained/controlled in and by the server domain control plane 
>>>> (and as such cannot transport any traffic/data and protected from 
>>>> being de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the 
>> data plane 
>>>> (and then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving 
>>>> previously advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.
>>>>>  2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or
>>>> more server network  domain nodes that are collectively represented 
>>>> to the clients as a single node that exists in the client layer 
>>>> network and is capable of terminating of access, inter-domain and 
>>>> virtual links.
>>>>>  3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one
>>>> or more virtual or real server network domain nodes that 
>> exist in the 
>>>> client layer network and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual 
>>>> links.
>>>>>  4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies
>>>> provided by each of server network domains, access and inter-domain 
>>>> links.
>>>>>  5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that
>>>> link. It can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
>>>>>  6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208
>>>> teminology  but (i) receiving virtual topology from the 
>> core network 
>>>> and requesting the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting the 
>>>> computation and establishment of a path accordingly to gien 
>>>> constraints in the core network and receiving the parameters 
>>>> characterizing such path. (ii) == UNI.
>>>>>  7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but
>>>> able to deal with (i) and (ii) above.
>>>>>  8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for
>>>> signaling and routing messages exchange between Overlay and  Core 
>>>> network. Routing information consists on virtual topology  
>>>> advertisement. When there is no routing adjacency across the  
>>>> interface it is equivalent to the GMPLS UNI defined in 4208.
>>>> Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information  related 
>>>> to path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected  SRLG, 
>> path delay 
>>>> etc, either passed from OE to OC via  signaling after the LSP 
>>>> establishment in the core network or from OC to OE to be 
>> used as path 
>>>> computation constraints, fall  under the definition of 
>> signaling info 
>>>> and not routing info).
>>>>>  9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the
>>>> links between different core networks in the overlay model 
>>>> environment, i.e. Between border OEs. Same features of the 
>> ONI apply 
>>>> to this interface. Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name 
>> is needed?
>>>>>
>>>>> + Statements
>>>>>  1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build
>>>> an overlay
>>>>> topology for the client network domains  2. The overlay
>>>> topology is comprised of:
>>>>>     a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the
>>>> server network domains). They can be PSC or LSC.
>>>>>     b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server
>>>> network domains)   
>>>>>     c) virtual topology provided by the server network
>>>> domains. Virtual Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) + Connectivity Matrix 
>>>> (with a set of parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments, delay etc 
>>>> for each entry) describing connectivity between access links and 
>>>> virtual links.
>>>>>  3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy  
>> of overlay 
>>>>> topologies with overlay/underlay relationships  4. In the 
>> context of 
>>>>> overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships
>>>> are peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network 
>>>> integration  5. The overlay model assumes one instance for 
>> the client 
>>>> network and a separate instance for the server network and 
>> in the ONI 
>>>> case the server network also surreptitiously participates in the 
>>>> client network by injecting virtual topology information into it.
>>>>>  6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over
>>>> the ONI (it falls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency is in 
>>>> place between OC and OE).
>>>>>
>>>>> + Open issues/questions
>>>>>  
>>>>>  1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about
>>>> PCE and PCEP into the overlay framework context?
>>>>>  2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
>>>>>  3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?
>>>>>
>>>>> + Appendix:
>>>>> Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>>>>> 1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale 
>>>> because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs 
>> have the 
>>>> same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs
>>>>> 2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is 
>>>> by having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the 
>>>> middle of the virtual topology
>>>>> 3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server 
>>>> domain switches, because, generally speaking:
>>>>>   a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
>>>>>   b)Real switches are named from different naming space
>>>>>   c)real switches individually may not have sufficient
>>>> resources to terminate virtual links (while a group of real 
>> switches 
>>>> collectively will have)
>>>>>   d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual
>>>> node have better scalability qualities
>>>>> 4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real 
>>>> node, you need to keep in mind that real server domain 
>> switches are, 
>>>> generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must expose their 
>>>> connectivity matrices
>>>>> 5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that 
>>>> could potentially go through a real server domain switch, the 
>>>> latter's connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so that 
>>>> the two services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail 
>>>> if a single internal element shared by the services fails
>>>>> 6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be 
>>>> addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking 
>>>> switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no 
>> difference 
>>>> between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
>>>>> 7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected 
>>>> to server network domain must be upgraded so that they could 
>>>> understand the connectivity matrices advertised by the border nodes 
>>>> describing connectivity constraints between access links 
>> and virtual 
>>>> links they terminate.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  
>>>>> ===================================
>>>>> DANIELE CECCARELLI
>>>>> System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro
>>>>>
>>>>> Via E.Melen, 77
>>>>> Genova, Italy
>>>>> Phone +390106002512
>>>>> Mobile +393346725750
>>>>> daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>>>>> www.ericsson.com
>>>>>
>>>>> This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive
>>>> email on
>>>>> the basis of the term set out at www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
> 
> 
> 

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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] R:  Overlay model framework and context
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Sergio,
	I'm not sure we're in agreement.  I'm fine with the OE/OC terminology.
 (which shouldn't be too surprising...)

Lou

On 12/19/2012 10:46 AM, BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO) wrote:
> Hi Daniele,
> 
> Thanks a lot for your effort to summarize mail exchange.
> 
> About the content and definitions , I would support the Lou position.
> I think that in this context many of the concepts and definitions have been proposed , are already present in the IETF document.
> 
> ONI definition and OE and OC definitions surely does not help to clarify scenarios that has been already debated in the VPN context .
> 
> I support UNI only definition without to complicate proliferating with other interface definitions, and the usage of CE ,PE for nodes.
> Moreover I have also perplexity about the definition of Virtual Link and Virtual Topology.
> 
> What are the difference and the added values to have very similar definitions to what already well defined in the MRN context ?
> 
> Thanks again for your effort.
> 
> Ciao
> Sergio
> 
> Belotti Sergio - System Architect
> ALCATEL-LUCENT  Optics Division
> 
> -----Messaggio originale-----
> Da: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] Per conto di Daniele Ceccarelli
> Inviato: mercoledì 19 dicembre 2012 16.32
> A: Lou Berger
> Cc: CCAMP
> Oggetto: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
> 
>  Lou, it's just a matter of convenience.
> 
> Why should is say: 
> "customer interface/link between an OE and an OC in the overlay model context supporting both signaling and routing message exchange that is called UNI when only signaling is supported"
> 
> ...when i could simply say: ONI? :)
> 
> BR
> Daniele
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net] 
>> Sent: mercoledì 19 dicembre 2012 16.09
>> To: Daniele Ceccarelli
>> Cc: CCAMP
>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>
>> Daniele,
>> 	see below.
>>
>>
>> On 12/19/2012 5:56 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
>>> Hi Lou,
>>>
>>> Plese find replies in line.
>>>
>>> BR
>>> Daniele
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
>>>> Sent: lunedì 17 dicembre 2012 20.45
>>>> To: Daniele Ceccarelli
>>>> Cc: CCAMP
>>>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Daniele,
>>>> 	Thanks for getting this on-list discussion going.  I have some 
>>>> comments and questions:
>>>>
>>>> - So what's a "client layer network" in this context?  Perhaps you 
>>>> mean OC or "(overlay) customer layer"?
>>>
>>> Yes. The terms client layer and server layer are 
>> reminescences to be corrected.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> - So what's a "server layer network" in this context?  Perhaps you 
>>>> mean OE or "(overlay) provider layer"?
>>>
>>> Again correct
>>>
>>>>
>>>> - For OC, I'd thing referring back to a CE in the VPN context, and 
>>>> likewise to a PE for an OE, is helpful context.
>>>
>>> In the case of the interface we generally define the ONI as 
>> an overlay 
>>> interface that in a particular case is called UNI.
>>
>> I have no idea what this means.  I suspect it relates to 
>> comments below, so will discuss there.
>>
>>> I would
>>> apply the same method: those nodes are called Overlay Customer and 
>>> Overlay Edge and in the particular case of VPNs they are the 
>> CE and PE 
>>> respectively. What about that?
>>>
>>
>> How about:
>>
>> An OC is analogous to an L3VPN CE, and an OE is analogous to 
>> an L3VPN PE (with a provider based VPN).
>>
>>>>
>>>> - As you mention in the Appendix, (from the OC perspective) 
>> there is 
>>>> no difference between a virtual and real node (and 
>> presumably link as 
>>>> well).  Given this and your comment in 8, that the ONI can take the 
>>>> form of a UNI or include both signaling and routing (i.e., a 
>>>> peer/I-NNI or
>>>> E-NNI) what value is there in introducing the ONI term?  
>> Said another 
>>>> way, there's no specific term for the interface between a CE and PE 
>>>> in L3VPNs, so why do we need to introduce one in this context?
>>>
>>> We gave a name to the UNI, why don't giving to the ONI?
>>
>> Because redundant/unnecessary terminology only obfuscates.
>>
>> Why not customer interface/link? This has been sufficient for L3VPNs.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think this same comment probably holds for the O-NNI 
>> (e.g., what's 
>>>> the name of the interface between providers which support L3VPN 
>>>> handoffs?)...
>>>
>>> I would suggest giving a name to that interface also in 
>> order to distinguish between an "internal" and an "external" 
>> link when multiple overlay provider network domains are present.
>>>
>>
>> How about inter-provider interface/link? Again, this has been 
>> sufficient for L3VPNs.
>>
>> Lou
>>
>>>>
>>>> Much thanks,
>>>> Lou
>>>>
>>>> On 12/17/2012 6:17 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
>>>>> Dear CCAMPers,
>>>>>
>>>>> In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the
>>>> Overlay model framework and related works took place. Some 
>>>> discussions led to some sort of agreemet among a small group of 
>>>> people, some others to a set a viable options, some others 
>> to totally 
>>>> open issues. I tried to summarize the output of such discussions 
>>>> below so to progress the discussions into a single thread on the WG 
>>>> ML.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a
>>>> well shaped and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to provide the 
>>>> basis for starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea (step 1) 
>>>> instead of starting it from scratch (step 0).
>>>>>
>>>>> In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a
>>>> proposal of the overlay scenario.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Daniele
>>>>>
>>>>> + Disclaimer:
>>>>>  1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work
>>>> can be extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.
>>>>>
>>>>> + Terminology:
>>>>>
>>>>>  1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between
>>>> two virtual or real network elements in a client layer network that 
>>>> is maintained/controlled in and by the server domain control plane 
>>>> (and as such cannot transport any traffic/data and protected from 
>>>> being de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the 
>> data plane 
>>>> (and then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving 
>>>> previously advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.
>>>>>  2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or
>>>> more server network  domain nodes that are collectively represented 
>>>> to the clients as a single node that exists in the client layer 
>>>> network and is capable of terminating of access, inter-domain and 
>>>> virtual links.
>>>>>  3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one
>>>> or more virtual or real server network domain nodes that 
>> exist in the 
>>>> client layer network and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual 
>>>> links.
>>>>>  4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies
>>>> provided by each of server network domains, access and inter-domain 
>>>> links.
>>>>>  5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that
>>>> link. It can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
>>>>>  6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208
>>>> teminology  but (i) receiving virtual topology from the 
>> core network 
>>>> and requesting the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting the 
>>>> computation and establishment of a path accordingly to gien 
>>>> constraints in the core network and receiving the parameters 
>>>> characterizing such path. (ii) == UNI.
>>>>>  7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but
>>>> able to deal with (i) and (ii) above.
>>>>>  8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for
>>>> signaling and routing messages exchange between Overlay and  Core 
>>>> network. Routing information consists on virtual topology  
>>>> advertisement. When there is no routing adjacency across the  
>>>> interface it is equivalent to the GMPLS UNI defined in 4208.
>>>> Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information  related 
>>>> to path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected  SRLG, 
>> path delay 
>>>> etc, either passed from OE to OC via  signaling after the LSP 
>>>> establishment in the core network or from OC to OE to be 
>> used as path 
>>>> computation constraints, fall  under the definition of 
>> signaling info 
>>>> and not routing info).
>>>>>  9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the
>>>> links between different core networks in the overlay model 
>>>> environment, i.e. Between border OEs. Same features of the 
>> ONI apply 
>>>> to this interface. Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name 
>> is needed?
>>>>>
>>>>> + Statements
>>>>>  1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build
>>>> an overlay
>>>>> topology for the client network domains  2. The overlay
>>>> topology is comprised of:
>>>>>     a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the
>>>> server network domains). They can be PSC or LSC.
>>>>>     b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server
>>>> network domains)   
>>>>>     c) virtual topology provided by the server network
>>>> domains. Virtual Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) + Connectivity Matrix 
>>>> (with a set of parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments, delay etc 
>>>> for each entry) describing connectivity between access links and 
>>>> virtual links.
>>>>>  3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy  
>> of overlay 
>>>>> topologies with overlay/underlay relationships  4. In the 
>> context of 
>>>>> overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships
>>>> are peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network 
>>>> integration  5. The overlay model assumes one instance for 
>> the client 
>>>> network and a separate instance for the server network and 
>> in the ONI 
>>>> case the server network also surreptitiously participates in the 
>>>> client network by injecting virtual topology information into it.
>>>>>  6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over
>>>> the ONI (it falls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency is in 
>>>> place between OC and OE).
>>>>>
>>>>> + Open issues/questions
>>>>>  
>>>>>  1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about
>>>> PCE and PCEP into the overlay framework context?
>>>>>  2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
>>>>>  3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?
>>>>>
>>>>> + Appendix:
>>>>> Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>>>>> 1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale 
>>>> because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs 
>> have the 
>>>> same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs
>>>>> 2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is 
>>>> by having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the 
>>>> middle of the virtual topology
>>>>> 3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server 
>>>> domain switches, because, generally speaking:
>>>>>   a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
>>>>>   b)Real switches are named from different naming space
>>>>>   c)real switches individually may not have sufficient
>>>> resources to terminate virtual links (while a group of real 
>> switches 
>>>> collectively will have)
>>>>>   d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual
>>>> node have better scalability qualities
>>>>> 4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real 
>>>> node, you need to keep in mind that real server domain 
>> switches are, 
>>>> generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must expose their 
>>>> connectivity matrices
>>>>> 5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that 
>>>> could potentially go through a real server domain switch, the 
>>>> latter's connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so that 
>>>> the two services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail 
>>>> if a single internal element shared by the services fails
>>>>> 6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be 
>>>> addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking 
>>>> switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no 
>> difference 
>>>> between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
>>>>> 7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected 
>>>> to server network domain must be upgraded so that they could 
>>>> understand the connectivity matrices advertised by the border nodes 
>>>> describing connectivity constraints between access links 
>> and virtual 
>>>> links they terminate.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  
>>>>> ===================================
>>>>> DANIELE CECCARELLI
>>>>> System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro
>>>>>
>>>>> Via E.Melen, 77
>>>>> Genova, Italy
>>>>> Phone +390106002512
>>>>> Mobile +393346725750
>>>>> daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>>>>> www.ericsson.com
>>>>>
>>>>> This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive
>>>> email on
>>>>> the basis of the term set out at www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> 
> 
> 
> 

From sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com  Wed Dec 19 08:04:29 2012
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From: "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)" <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 17:04:08 +0100
Thread-Topic: R: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: [CCAMP] R: R:  Overlay model framework and context
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Lou,

I misunderstood your assumption sorry, yes we agree in the definition for O=
E and OC but referring to PE and CE as helpful reference in the definition.

Sergio

Belotti Sergio - System Architect
ALCATEL-LUCENT  Optics Division

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]=20
Inviato: mercoled=EC 19 dicembre 2012 16.55
A: BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)
Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP
Oggetto: Re: R: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context


Sergio,
	I'm not sure we're in agreement.  I'm fine with the OE/OC terminology.
 (which shouldn't be too surprising...)

Lou

On 12/19/2012 10:46 AM, BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO) wrote:
> Hi Daniele,
>=20
> Thanks a lot for your effort to summarize mail exchange.
>=20
> About the content and definitions , I would support the Lou position.
> I think that in this context many of the concepts and definitions have be=
en proposed , are already present in the IETF document.
>=20
> ONI definition and OE and OC definitions surely does not help to clarify =
scenarios that has been already debated in the VPN context .
>=20
> I support UNI only definition without to complicate proliferating with ot=
her interface definitions, and the usage of CE ,PE for nodes.
> Moreover I have also perplexity about the definition of Virtual Link and =
Virtual Topology.
>=20
> What are the difference and the added values to have very similar definit=
ions to what already well defined in the MRN context ?
>=20
> Thanks again for your effort.
>=20
> Ciao
> Sergio
>=20
> Belotti Sergio - System Architect
> ALCATEL-LUCENT  Optics Division
>=20
> -----Messaggio originale-----
> Da: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] Per conto di D=
aniele Ceccarelli
> Inviato: mercoled=EC 19 dicembre 2012 16.32
> A: Lou Berger
> Cc: CCAMP
> Oggetto: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>=20
>  Lou, it's just a matter of convenience.
>=20
> Why should is say:=20
> "customer interface/link between an OE and an OC in the overlay model con=
text supporting both signaling and routing message exchange that is called =
UNI when only signaling is supported"
>=20
> ...when i could simply say: ONI? :)
>=20
> BR
> Daniele
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]=20
>> Sent: mercoled=EC 19 dicembre 2012 16.09
>> To: Daniele Ceccarelli
>> Cc: CCAMP
>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>
>> Daniele,
>> 	see below.
>>
>>
>> On 12/19/2012 5:56 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
>>> Hi Lou,
>>>
>>> Plese find replies in line.
>>>
>>> BR
>>> Daniele
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
>>>> Sent: luned=EC 17 dicembre 2012 20.45
>>>> To: Daniele Ceccarelli
>>>> Cc: CCAMP
>>>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Daniele,
>>>> 	Thanks for getting this on-list discussion going.  I have some=20
>>>> comments and questions:
>>>>
>>>> - So what's a "client layer network" in this context?  Perhaps you=20
>>>> mean OC or "(overlay) customer layer"?
>>>
>>> Yes. The terms client layer and server layer are=20
>> reminescences to be corrected.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> - So what's a "server layer network" in this context?  Perhaps you=20
>>>> mean OE or "(overlay) provider layer"?
>>>
>>> Again correct
>>>
>>>>
>>>> - For OC, I'd thing referring back to a CE in the VPN context, and=20
>>>> likewise to a PE for an OE, is helpful context.
>>>
>>> In the case of the interface we generally define the ONI as=20
>> an overlay=20
>>> interface that in a particular case is called UNI.
>>
>> I have no idea what this means.  I suspect it relates to=20
>> comments below, so will discuss there.
>>
>>> I would
>>> apply the same method: those nodes are called Overlay Customer and=20
>>> Overlay Edge and in the particular case of VPNs they are the=20
>> CE and PE=20
>>> respectively. What about that?
>>>
>>
>> How about:
>>
>> An OC is analogous to an L3VPN CE, and an OE is analogous to=20
>> an L3VPN PE (with a provider based VPN).
>>
>>>>
>>>> - As you mention in the Appendix, (from the OC perspective)=20
>> there is=20
>>>> no difference between a virtual and real node (and=20
>> presumably link as=20
>>>> well).  Given this and your comment in 8, that the ONI can take the=20
>>>> form of a UNI or include both signaling and routing (i.e., a=20
>>>> peer/I-NNI or
>>>> E-NNI) what value is there in introducing the ONI term? =20
>> Said another=20
>>>> way, there's no specific term for the interface between a CE and PE=20
>>>> in L3VPNs, so why do we need to introduce one in this context?
>>>
>>> We gave a name to the UNI, why don't giving to the ONI?
>>
>> Because redundant/unnecessary terminology only obfuscates.
>>
>> Why not customer interface/link? This has been sufficient for L3VPNs.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think this same comment probably holds for the O-NNI=20
>> (e.g., what's=20
>>>> the name of the interface between providers which support L3VPN=20
>>>> handoffs?)...
>>>
>>> I would suggest giving a name to that interface also in=20
>> order to distinguish between an "internal" and an "external"=20
>> link when multiple overlay provider network domains are present.
>>>
>>
>> How about inter-provider interface/link? Again, this has been=20
>> sufficient for L3VPNs.
>>
>> Lou
>>
>>>>
>>>> Much thanks,
>>>> Lou
>>>>
>>>> On 12/17/2012 6:17 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
>>>>> Dear CCAMPers,
>>>>>
>>>>> In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the
>>>> Overlay model framework and related works took place. Some=20
>>>> discussions led to some sort of agreemet among a small group of=20
>>>> people, some others to a set a viable options, some others=20
>> to totally=20
>>>> open issues. I tried to summarize the output of such discussions=20
>>>> below so to progress the discussions into a single thread on the WG=20
>>>> ML.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a
>>>> well shaped and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to provide the=20
>>>> basis for starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea (step 1)=20
>>>> instead of starting it from scratch (step 0).
>>>>>
>>>>> In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a
>>>> proposal of the overlay scenario.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Daniele
>>>>>
>>>>> + Disclaimer:
>>>>>  1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work
>>>> can be extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.
>>>>>
>>>>> + Terminology:
>>>>>
>>>>>  1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between
>>>> two virtual or real network elements in a client layer network that=20
>>>> is maintained/controlled in and by the server domain control plane=20
>>>> (and as such cannot transport any traffic/data and protected from=20
>>>> being de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the=20
>> data plane=20
>>>> (and then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving=20
>>>> previously advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.
>>>>>  2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or
>>>> more server network  domain nodes that are collectively represented=20
>>>> to the clients as a single node that exists in the client layer=20
>>>> network and is capable of terminating of access, inter-domain and=20
>>>> virtual links.
>>>>>  3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one
>>>> or more virtual or real server network domain nodes that=20
>> exist in the=20
>>>> client layer network and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual=20
>>>> links.
>>>>>  4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies
>>>> provided by each of server network domains, access and inter-domain=20
>>>> links.
>>>>>  5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that
>>>> link. It can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
>>>>>  6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208
>>>> teminology  but (i) receiving virtual topology from the=20
>> core network=20
>>>> and requesting the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting the=20
>>>> computation and establishment of a path accordingly to gien=20
>>>> constraints in the core network and receiving the parameters=20
>>>> characterizing such path. (ii) =3D=3D UNI.
>>>>>  7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but
>>>> able to deal with (i) and (ii) above.
>>>>>  8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for
>>>> signaling and routing messages exchange between Overlay and  Core=20
>>>> network. Routing information consists on virtual topology =20
>>>> advertisement. When there is no routing adjacency across the =20
>>>> interface it is equivalent to the GMPLS UNI defined in 4208.
>>>> Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information  related=20
>>>> to path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected  SRLG,=20
>> path delay=20
>>>> etc, either passed from OE to OC via  signaling after the LSP=20
>>>> establishment in the core network or from OC to OE to be=20
>> used as path=20
>>>> computation constraints, fall  under the definition of=20
>> signaling info=20
>>>> and not routing info).
>>>>>  9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the
>>>> links between different core networks in the overlay model=20
>>>> environment, i.e. Between border OEs. Same features of the=20
>> ONI apply=20
>>>> to this interface. Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name=20
>> is needed?
>>>>>
>>>>> + Statements
>>>>>  1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build
>>>> an overlay
>>>>> topology for the client network domains  2. The overlay
>>>> topology is comprised of:
>>>>>     a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the
>>>> server network domains). They can be PSC or LSC.
>>>>>     b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server
>>>> network domains)  =20
>>>>>     c) virtual topology provided by the server network
>>>> domains. Virtual Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) + Connectivity Matrix=20
>>>> (with a set of parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments, delay etc=20
>>>> for each entry) describing connectivity between access links and=20
>>>> virtual links.
>>>>>  3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy =20
>> of overlay=20
>>>>> topologies with overlay/underlay relationships  4. In the=20
>> context of=20
>>>>> overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships
>>>> are peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network=20
>>>> integration  5. The overlay model assumes one instance for=20
>> the client=20
>>>> network and a separate instance for the server network and=20
>> in the ONI=20
>>>> case the server network also surreptitiously participates in the=20
>>>> client network by injecting virtual topology information into it.
>>>>>  6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over
>>>> the ONI (it falls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency is in=20
>>>> place between OC and OE).
>>>>>
>>>>> + Open issues/questions
>>>>> =20
>>>>>  1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about
>>>> PCE and PCEP into the overlay framework context?
>>>>>  2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
>>>>>  3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?
>>>>>
>>>>> + Appendix:
>>>>> Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>>>>> 1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale=20
>>>> because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs=20
>> have the=20
>>>> same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs
>>>>> 2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is=20
>>>> by having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the=20
>>>> middle of the virtual topology
>>>>> 3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server=20
>>>> domain switches, because, generally speaking:
>>>>>   a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
>>>>>   b)Real switches are named from different naming space
>>>>>   c)real switches individually may not have sufficient
>>>> resources to terminate virtual links (while a group of real=20
>> switches=20
>>>> collectively will have)
>>>>>   d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual
>>>> node have better scalability qualities
>>>>> 4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real=20
>>>> node, you need to keep in mind that real server domain=20
>> switches are,=20
>>>> generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must expose their=20
>>>> connectivity matrices
>>>>> 5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that=20
>>>> could potentially go through a real server domain switch, the=20
>>>> latter's connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so that=20
>>>> the two services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail=20
>>>> if a single internal element shared by the services fails
>>>>> 6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be=20
>>>> addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking=20
>>>> switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no=20
>> difference=20
>>>> between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
>>>>> 7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected=20
>>>> to server network domain must be upgraded so that they could=20
>>>> understand the connectivity matrices advertised by the border nodes=20
>>>> describing connectivity constraints between access links=20
>> and virtual=20
>>>> links they terminate.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> =20
>>>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>>>> DANIELE CECCARELLI
>>>>> System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro
>>>>>
>>>>> Via E.Melen, 77
>>>>> Genova, Italy
>>>>> Phone +390106002512
>>>>> Mobile +393346725750
>>>>> daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>>>>> www.ericsson.com
>>>>>
>>>>> This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive
>>>> email on
>>>>> the basis of the term set out at www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20

From daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com  Wed Dec 19 08:23:57 2012
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From: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Basically yes; being fussy i would say:

For the signaling+routing(normal case):
	LB) customer interface with signaling and routing
	DC) ONI
For the UNI case:
 	LB) customer interface with UNI
	DC) UNI

BR
Daniele
=20

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]=20
>Sent: mercoled=EC 19 dicembre 2012 16.54
>To: Daniele Ceccarelli
>Cc: CCAMP
>Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>Daniele,
>	If ONI is a superset (i.e., covers all cases), what's=20
>the difference.
>So the terminology options are:
>
>For the signaling+routing(normal case):
>	LB) customer interface with signaling and routing
>	DC) ONI with signaling and routing
>For the UNI case:
> 	LB) customer interface with UNI
>	DC) ONI with UNI
>
>Right?
>
>Lou
>
>On 12/19/2012 10:32 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
>>  Lou, it's just a matter of convenience.
>>=20
>> Why should is say:=20
>> "customer interface/link between an OE and an OC in the=20
>overlay model context supporting both signaling and routing=20
>message exchange that is called UNI when only signaling is supported"
>>=20
>> ...when i could simply say: ONI? :)
>>=20
>> BR
>> Daniele
>>=20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
>>> Sent: mercoled=EC 19 dicembre 2012 16.09
>>> To: Daniele Ceccarelli
>>> Cc: CCAMP
>>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>>
>>> Daniele,
>>> 	see below.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/19/2012 5:56 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
>>>> Hi Lou,
>>>>
>>>> Plese find replies in line.
>>>>
>>>> BR
>>>> Daniele
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
>>>>> Sent: luned=EC 17 dicembre 2012 20.45
>>>>> To: Daniele Ceccarelli
>>>>> Cc: CCAMP
>>>>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Daniele,
>>>>> 	Thanks for getting this on-list discussion going.  I have some=20
>>>>> comments and questions:
>>>>>
>>>>> - So what's a "client layer network" in this context? =20
>Perhaps you=20
>>>>> mean OC or "(overlay) customer layer"?
>>>>
>>>> Yes. The terms client layer and server layer are
>>> reminescences to be corrected.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> - So what's a "server layer network" in this context? =20
>Perhaps you=20
>>>>> mean OE or "(overlay) provider layer"?
>>>>
>>>> Again correct
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> - For OC, I'd thing referring back to a CE in the VPN=20
>context, and=20
>>>>> likewise to a PE for an OE, is helpful context.
>>>>
>>>> In the case of the interface we generally define the ONI as
>>> an overlay
>>>> interface that in a particular case is called UNI.
>>>
>>> I have no idea what this means.  I suspect it relates to comments=20
>>> below, so will discuss there.
>>>
>>>> I would
>>>> apply the same method: those nodes are called Overlay Customer and=20
>>>> Overlay Edge and in the particular case of VPNs they are the
>>> CE and PE
>>>> respectively. What about that?
>>>>
>>>
>>> How about:
>>>
>>> An OC is analogous to an L3VPN CE, and an OE is analogous=20
>to an L3VPN=20
>>> PE (with a provider based VPN).
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> - As you mention in the Appendix, (from the OC perspective)
>>> there is
>>>>> no difference between a virtual and real node (and
>>> presumably link as
>>>>> well).  Given this and your comment in 8, that the ONI=20
>can take the=20
>>>>> form of a UNI or include both signaling and routing (i.e., a=20
>>>>> peer/I-NNI or
>>>>> E-NNI) what value is there in introducing the ONI term? =20
>>> Said another
>>>>> way, there's no specific term for the interface between a=20
>CE and PE=20
>>>>> in L3VPNs, so why do we need to introduce one in this context?
>>>>
>>>> We gave a name to the UNI, why don't giving to the ONI?
>>>
>>> Because redundant/unnecessary terminology only obfuscates.
>>>
>>> Why not customer interface/link? This has been sufficient=20
>for L3VPNs.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think this same comment probably holds for the O-NNI
>>> (e.g., what's
>>>>> the name of the interface between providers which support L3VPN=20
>>>>> handoffs?)...
>>>>
>>>> I would suggest giving a name to that interface also in
>>> order to distinguish between an "internal" and an "external"=20
>>> link when multiple overlay provider network domains are present.
>>>>
>>>
>>> How about inter-provider interface/link? Again, this has been=20
>>> sufficient for L3VPNs.
>>>
>>> Lou
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Much thanks,
>>>>> Lou
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12/17/2012 6:17 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
>>>>>> Dear CCAMPers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the
>>>>> Overlay model framework and related works took place. Some=20
>>>>> discussions led to some sort of agreemet among a small group of=20
>>>>> people, some others to a set a viable options, some others
>>> to totally
>>>>> open issues. I tried to summarize the output of such discussions=20
>>>>> below so to progress the discussions into a single thread=20
>on the WG=20
>>>>> ML.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a
>>>>> well shaped and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to=20
>provide the=20
>>>>> basis for starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea=20
>(step 1)=20
>>>>> instead of starting it from scratch (step 0).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a
>>>>> proposal of the overlay scenario.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Daniele
>>>>>>
>>>>>> + Disclaimer:
>>>>>>  1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work
>>>>> can be extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> + Terminology:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between
>>>>> two virtual or real network elements in a client layer=20
>network that=20
>>>>> is maintained/controlled in and by the server domain=20
>control plane=20
>>>>> (and as such cannot transport any traffic/data and protected from=20
>>>>> being de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the
>>> data plane
>>>>> (and then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving=20
>>>>> previously advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.
>>>>>>  2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or
>>>>> more server network  domain nodes that are collectively=20
>represented=20
>>>>> to the clients as a single node that exists in the client layer=20
>>>>> network and is capable of terminating of access, inter-domain and=20
>>>>> virtual links.
>>>>>>  3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one
>>>>> or more virtual or real server network domain nodes that
>>> exist in the
>>>>> client layer network and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual=20
>>>>> links.
>>>>>>  4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies
>>>>> provided by each of server network domains, access and=20
>inter-domain=20
>>>>> links.
>>>>>>  5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that
>>>>> link. It can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
>>>>>>  6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208
>>>>> teminology  but (i) receiving virtual topology from the
>>> core network
>>>>> and requesting the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting the=20
>>>>> computation and establishment of a path accordingly to gien=20
>>>>> constraints in the core network and receiving the parameters=20
>>>>> characterizing such path. (ii) =3D=3D UNI.
>>>>>>  7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but
>>>>> able to deal with (i) and (ii) above.
>>>>>>  8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for
>>>>> signaling and routing messages exchange between Overlay and  Core=20
>>>>> network. Routing information consists on virtual topology=20
>>>>> advertisement. When there is no routing adjacency across the=20
>>>>> interface it is equivalent to the GMPLS UNI defined in 4208.
>>>>> Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208.=20
>Information  related=20
>>>>> to path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected  SRLG,
>>> path delay
>>>>> etc, either passed from OE to OC via  signaling after the LSP=20
>>>>> establishment in the core network or from OC to OE to be
>>> used as path
>>>>> computation constraints, fall  under the definition of
>>> signaling info
>>>>> and not routing info).
>>>>>>  9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the
>>>>> links between different core networks in the overlay model=20
>>>>> environment, i.e. Between border OEs. Same features of the
>>> ONI apply
>>>>> to this interface. Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name
>>> is needed?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> + Statements
>>>>>>  1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build
>>>>> an overlay
>>>>>> topology for the client network domains  2. The overlay
>>>>> topology is comprised of:
>>>>>>     a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the
>>>>> server network domains). They can be PSC or LSC.
>>>>>>     b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server
>>>>> network domains)  =20
>>>>>>     c) virtual topology provided by the server network
>>>>> domains. Virtual Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) +=20
>Connectivity Matrix=20
>>>>> (with a set of parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments,=20
>delay etc=20
>>>>> for each entry) describing connectivity between access links and=20
>>>>> virtual links.
>>>>>>  3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy
>>> of overlay
>>>>>> topologies with overlay/underlay relationships  4. In the
>>> context of
>>>>>> overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships
>>>>> are peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network=20
>>>>> integration  5. The overlay model assumes one instance for
>>> the client
>>>>> network and a separate instance for the server network and
>>> in the ONI
>>>>> case the server network also surreptitiously participates in the=20
>>>>> client network by injecting virtual topology information into it.
>>>>>>  6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over
>>>>> the ONI (it falls under the UNI case as no routing=20
>adjacency is in=20
>>>>> place between OC and OE).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> + Open issues/questions
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>  1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about
>>>>> PCE and PCEP into the overlay framework context?
>>>>>>  2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
>>>>>>  3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> + Appendix:
>>>>>> Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>>>>>> 1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale=20
>>>>> because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs
>>> have the
>>>>> same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs
>>>>>> 2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is=20
>>>>> by having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the=20
>>>>> middle of the virtual topology
>>>>>> 3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server=20
>>>>> domain switches, because, generally speaking:
>>>>>>   a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
>>>>>>   b)Real switches are named from different naming space
>>>>>>   c)real switches individually may not have sufficient
>>>>> resources to terminate virtual links (while a group of real
>>> switches
>>>>> collectively will have)
>>>>>>   d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual
>>>>> node have better scalability qualities
>>>>>> 4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real=20
>>>>> node, you need to keep in mind that real server domain
>>> switches are,
>>>>> generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must=20
>expose their=20
>>>>> connectivity matrices
>>>>>> 5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that=20
>>>>> could potentially go through a real server domain switch, the=20
>>>>> latter's connectivity matrix must expose "internal"=20
>SRLGs, so that=20
>>>>> the two services traversing the switch will not=20
>simultaneously fail=20
>>>>> if a single internal element shared by the services fails
>>>>>> 6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be=20
>>>>> addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies=20
>with blocking=20
>>>>> switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no
>>> difference
>>>>> between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
>>>>>> 7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected=20
>>>>> to server network domain must be upgraded so that they could=20
>>>>> understand the connectivity matrices advertised by the=20
>border nodes=20
>>>>> describing connectivity constraints between access links
>>> and virtual
>>>>> links they terminate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>>>>> DANIELE CECCARELLI
>>>>>> System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Via E.Melen, 77
>>>>>> Genova, Italy
>>>>>> Phone +390106002512
>>>>>> Mobile +393346725750
>>>>>> daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>>>>>> www.ericsson.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive
>>>>> email on
>>>>>> the basis of the term set out at=20
>www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=

From daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com  Wed Dec 19 08:48:04 2012
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From: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
To: "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)" <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
Thread-Topic: R: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] R:  Overlay model framework and context
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Hi Sergio,

A VPN is one of the many things (services) that can be done in an overlay c=
ontext and my proposal was to call such nodes OE and OC when generally refe=
rring to them withing the overlay context. If in such context you are provi=
ng a VPN, then the OE is a PE and the OC is a CE, but only for the VPN. The=
y are not a PE and a CE for every other service going through them that is =
not a VPN.

Take for example the "kilt". You don't call "kilt" every skirt. When you're=
 in the context of traditional scottish male clothing you call it "kilt", o=
therwise it's generally called skirt. (apologies for the example but a bett=
er one didn't come to my mind).

Wrt the MRN what is your proposal? Calling the virtual te-links just VNT?

Ciao
Daniele


>-----Original Message-----
>From: BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)=20
>[mailto:sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com]=20
>Sent: mercoled=EC 19 dicembre 2012 17.04
>To: Lou Berger; Daniele Ceccarelli
>Cc: CCAMP
>Subject: R: R: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>Lou,
>
>I misunderstood your assumption sorry, yes we agree in the=20
>definition for OE and OC but referring to PE and CE as helpful=20
>reference in the definition.
>
>Sergio
>
>Belotti Sergio - System Architect
>ALCATEL-LUCENT  Optics Division
>
>-----Messaggio originale-----
>Da: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
>Inviato: mercoled=EC 19 dicembre 2012 16.55
>A: BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)
>Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP
>Oggetto: Re: R: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>
>Sergio,
>	I'm not sure we're in agreement.  I'm fine with the=20
>OE/OC terminology.
> (which shouldn't be too surprising...)
>
>Lou
>
>On 12/19/2012 10:46 AM, BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO) wrote:
>> Hi Daniele,
>>=20
>> Thanks a lot for your effort to summarize mail exchange.
>>=20
>> About the content and definitions , I would support the Lou position.
>> I think that in this context many of the concepts and=20
>definitions have been proposed , are already present in the=20
>IETF document.
>>=20
>> ONI definition and OE and OC definitions surely does not=20
>help to clarify scenarios that has been already debated in the=20
>VPN context .
>>=20
>> I support UNI only definition without to complicate=20
>proliferating with other interface definitions, and the usage=20
>of CE ,PE for nodes.
>> Moreover I have also perplexity about the definition of=20
>Virtual Link and Virtual Topology.
>>=20
>> What are the difference and the added values to have very=20
>similar definitions to what already well defined in the MRN context ?
>>=20
>> Thanks again for your effort.
>>=20
>> Ciao
>> Sergio
>>=20
>> Belotti Sergio - System Architect
>> ALCATEL-LUCENT  Optics Division
>>=20
>> -----Messaggio originale-----
>> Da: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org]=20
>Per conto di Daniele Ceccarelli
>> Inviato: mercoled=EC 19 dicembre 2012 16.32
>> A: Lou Berger
>> Cc: CCAMP
>> Oggetto: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>=20
>>  Lou, it's just a matter of convenience.
>>=20
>> Why should is say:=20
>> "customer interface/link between an OE and an OC in the=20
>overlay model context supporting both signaling and routing=20
>message exchange that is called UNI when only signaling is supported"
>>=20
>> ...when i could simply say: ONI? :)
>>=20
>> BR
>> Daniele
>>=20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]=20
>>> Sent: mercoled=EC 19 dicembre 2012 16.09
>>> To: Daniele Ceccarelli
>>> Cc: CCAMP
>>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>>
>>> Daniele,
>>> 	see below.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/19/2012 5:56 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
>>>> Hi Lou,
>>>>
>>>> Plese find replies in line.
>>>>
>>>> BR
>>>> Daniele
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
>>>>> Sent: luned=EC 17 dicembre 2012 20.45
>>>>> To: Daniele Ceccarelli
>>>>> Cc: CCAMP
>>>>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Daniele,
>>>>> 	Thanks for getting this on-list discussion going.  I have some=20
>>>>> comments and questions:
>>>>>
>>>>> - So what's a "client layer network" in this context? =20
>Perhaps you=20
>>>>> mean OC or "(overlay) customer layer"?
>>>>
>>>> Yes. The terms client layer and server layer are=20
>>> reminescences to be corrected.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> - So what's a "server layer network" in this context? =20
>Perhaps you=20
>>>>> mean OE or "(overlay) provider layer"?
>>>>
>>>> Again correct
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> - For OC, I'd thing referring back to a CE in the VPN=20
>context, and=20
>>>>> likewise to a PE for an OE, is helpful context.
>>>>
>>>> In the case of the interface we generally define the ONI as=20
>>> an overlay=20
>>>> interface that in a particular case is called UNI.
>>>
>>> I have no idea what this means.  I suspect it relates to=20
>>> comments below, so will discuss there.
>>>
>>>> I would
>>>> apply the same method: those nodes are called Overlay Customer and=20
>>>> Overlay Edge and in the particular case of VPNs they are the=20
>>> CE and PE=20
>>>> respectively. What about that?
>>>>
>>>
>>> How about:
>>>
>>> An OC is analogous to an L3VPN CE, and an OE is analogous to=20
>>> an L3VPN PE (with a provider based VPN).
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> - As you mention in the Appendix, (from the OC perspective)=20
>>> there is=20
>>>>> no difference between a virtual and real node (and=20
>>> presumably link as=20
>>>>> well).  Given this and your comment in 8, that the ONI=20
>can take the=20
>>>>> form of a UNI or include both signaling and routing (i.e., a=20
>>>>> peer/I-NNI or
>>>>> E-NNI) what value is there in introducing the ONI term? =20
>>> Said another=20
>>>>> way, there's no specific term for the interface between a=20
>CE and PE=20
>>>>> in L3VPNs, so why do we need to introduce one in this context?
>>>>
>>>> We gave a name to the UNI, why don't giving to the ONI?
>>>
>>> Because redundant/unnecessary terminology only obfuscates.
>>>
>>> Why not customer interface/link? This has been sufficient=20
>for L3VPNs.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think this same comment probably holds for the O-NNI=20
>>> (e.g., what's=20
>>>>> the name of the interface between providers which support L3VPN=20
>>>>> handoffs?)...
>>>>
>>>> I would suggest giving a name to that interface also in=20
>>> order to distinguish between an "internal" and an "external"=20
>>> link when multiple overlay provider network domains are present.
>>>>
>>>
>>> How about inter-provider interface/link? Again, this has been=20
>>> sufficient for L3VPNs.
>>>
>>> Lou
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Much thanks,
>>>>> Lou
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12/17/2012 6:17 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
>>>>>> Dear CCAMPers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the
>>>>> Overlay model framework and related works took place. Some=20
>>>>> discussions led to some sort of agreemet among a small group of=20
>>>>> people, some others to a set a viable options, some others=20
>>> to totally=20
>>>>> open issues. I tried to summarize the output of such discussions=20
>>>>> below so to progress the discussions into a single thread=20
>on the WG=20
>>>>> ML.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a
>>>>> well shaped and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to=20
>provide the=20
>>>>> basis for starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea=20
>(step 1)=20
>>>>> instead of starting it from scratch (step 0).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a
>>>>> proposal of the overlay scenario.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Daniele
>>>>>>
>>>>>> + Disclaimer:
>>>>>>  1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work
>>>>> can be extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> + Terminology:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between
>>>>> two virtual or real network elements in a client layer=20
>network that=20
>>>>> is maintained/controlled in and by the server domain=20
>control plane=20
>>>>> (and as such cannot transport any traffic/data and protected from=20
>>>>> being de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the=20
>>> data plane=20
>>>>> (and then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving=20
>>>>> previously advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.
>>>>>>  2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or
>>>>> more server network  domain nodes that are collectively=20
>represented=20
>>>>> to the clients as a single node that exists in the client layer=20
>>>>> network and is capable of terminating of access, inter-domain and=20
>>>>> virtual links.
>>>>>>  3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one
>>>>> or more virtual or real server network domain nodes that=20
>>> exist in the=20
>>>>> client layer network and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual=20
>>>>> links.
>>>>>>  4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies
>>>>> provided by each of server network domains, access and=20
>inter-domain=20
>>>>> links.
>>>>>>  5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that
>>>>> link. It can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
>>>>>>  6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208
>>>>> teminology  but (i) receiving virtual topology from the=20
>>> core network=20
>>>>> and requesting the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting the=20
>>>>> computation and establishment of a path accordingly to gien=20
>>>>> constraints in the core network and receiving the parameters=20
>>>>> characterizing such path. (ii) =3D=3D UNI.
>>>>>>  7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but
>>>>> able to deal with (i) and (ii) above.
>>>>>>  8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for
>>>>> signaling and routing messages exchange between Overlay and  Core=20
>>>>> network. Routing information consists on virtual topology =20
>>>>> advertisement. When there is no routing adjacency across the =20
>>>>> interface it is equivalent to the GMPLS UNI defined in 4208.
>>>>> Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208.=20
>Information  related=20
>>>>> to path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected  SRLG,=20
>>> path delay=20
>>>>> etc, either passed from OE to OC via  signaling after the LSP=20
>>>>> establishment in the core network or from OC to OE to be=20
>>> used as path=20
>>>>> computation constraints, fall  under the definition of=20
>>> signaling info=20
>>>>> and not routing info).
>>>>>>  9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the
>>>>> links between different core networks in the overlay model=20
>>>>> environment, i.e. Between border OEs. Same features of the=20
>>> ONI apply=20
>>>>> to this interface. Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name=20
>>> is needed?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> + Statements
>>>>>>  1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build
>>>>> an overlay
>>>>>> topology for the client network domains  2. The overlay
>>>>> topology is comprised of:
>>>>>>     a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the
>>>>> server network domains). They can be PSC or LSC.
>>>>>>     b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server
>>>>> network domains)  =20
>>>>>>     c) virtual topology provided by the server network
>>>>> domains. Virtual Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) +=20
>Connectivity Matrix=20
>>>>> (with a set of parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments,=20
>delay etc=20
>>>>> for each entry) describing connectivity between access links and=20
>>>>> virtual links.
>>>>>>  3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy =20
>>> of overlay=20
>>>>>> topologies with overlay/underlay relationships  4. In the=20
>>> context of=20
>>>>>> overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships
>>>>> are peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network=20
>>>>> integration  5. The overlay model assumes one instance for=20
>>> the client=20
>>>>> network and a separate instance for the server network and=20
>>> in the ONI=20
>>>>> case the server network also surreptitiously participates in the=20
>>>>> client network by injecting virtual topology information into it.
>>>>>>  6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over
>>>>> the ONI (it falls under the UNI case as no routing=20
>adjacency is in=20
>>>>> place between OC and OE).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> + Open issues/questions
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>  1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about
>>>>> PCE and PCEP into the overlay framework context?
>>>>>>  2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
>>>>>>  3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> + Appendix:
>>>>>> Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>>>>>> 1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale=20
>>>>> because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs=20
>>> have the=20
>>>>> same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs
>>>>>> 2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is=20
>>>>> by having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the=20
>>>>> middle of the virtual topology
>>>>>> 3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server=20
>>>>> domain switches, because, generally speaking:
>>>>>>   a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
>>>>>>   b)Real switches are named from different naming space
>>>>>>   c)real switches individually may not have sufficient
>>>>> resources to terminate virtual links (while a group of real=20
>>> switches=20
>>>>> collectively will have)
>>>>>>   d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual
>>>>> node have better scalability qualities
>>>>>> 4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real=20
>>>>> node, you need to keep in mind that real server domain=20
>>> switches are,=20
>>>>> generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must=20
>expose their=20
>>>>> connectivity matrices
>>>>>> 5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that=20
>>>>> could potentially go through a real server domain switch, the=20
>>>>> latter's connectivity matrix must expose "internal"=20
>SRLGs, so that=20
>>>>> the two services traversing the switch will not=20
>simultaneously fail=20
>>>>> if a single internal element shared by the services fails
>>>>>> 6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be=20
>>>>> addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies=20
>with blocking=20
>>>>> switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no=20
>>> difference=20
>>>>> between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
>>>>>> 7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected=20
>>>>> to server network domain must be upgraded so that they could=20
>>>>> understand the connectivity matrices advertised by the=20
>border nodes=20
>>>>> describing connectivity constraints between access links=20
>>> and virtual=20
>>>>> links they terminate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>>>>> DANIELE CECCARELLI
>>>>>> System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Via E.Melen, 77
>>>>>> Genova, Italy
>>>>>> Phone +390106002512
>>>>>> Mobile +393346725750
>>>>>> daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>>>>>> www.ericsson.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive
>>>>> email on
>>>>>> the basis of the term set out at=20
>www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=

From sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com  Wed Dec 19 08:58:55 2012
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From: "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)" <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 17:58:16 +0100
Thread-Topic: R: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: [CCAMP] R: R:  Overlay model framework and context
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Ciao Daniele,

See in line

Thanks
Sergio

Belotti Sergio - System Architect
ALCATEL-LUCENT  Optics Division

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]
Inviato: mercoled=EC 19 dicembre 2012 17.48
A: BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Lou Berger
Cc: CCAMP
Oggetto: RE: R: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context

Hi Sergio,

A VPN is one of the many things (services) that can be done in an overlay c=
ontext and my proposal was to call such nodes OE and OC when generally refe=
rring to them withing the overlay context. If in such context you are provi=
ng a VPN, then the OE is a PE and the OC is a CE, but only for the VPN. The=
y are not a PE and a CE for every other service going through them that is =
not a VPN.

SB> In the context of L1VPN , Overlay  stands for a Service Model, here it =
seems as though we change in the opposite in which you have a network topol=
ogy and VPN is a service on that. This creates some confusion in my mind .

Take for example the "kilt". You don't call "kilt" every skirt. When you're=
 in the context of traditional scottish male clothing you call it "kilt", o=
therwise it's generally called skirt. (apologies for the example but a bett=
er one didn't come to my mind).

SB> Very good example

Wrt the MRN what is your proposal? Calling the virtual te-links just VNT?

SB> Just taken the definition that are already there . So just reference th=
em.


Ciao
Daniele


>-----Original Message-----
>From: BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)
>[mailto:sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com]
>Sent: mercoled=EC 19 dicembre 2012 17.04
>To: Lou Berger; Daniele Ceccarelli
>Cc: CCAMP
>Subject: R: R: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>Lou,
>
>I misunderstood your assumption sorry, yes we agree in the
>definition for OE and OC but referring to PE and CE as helpful
>reference in the definition.
>
>Sergio
>
>Belotti Sergio - System Architect
>ALCATEL-LUCENT  Optics Division
>
>-----Messaggio originale-----
>Da: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
>Inviato: mercoled=EC 19 dicembre 2012 16.55
>A: BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)
>Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP
>Oggetto: Re: R: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>
>Sergio,
>       I'm not sure we're in agreement.  I'm fine with the
>OE/OC terminology.
> (which shouldn't be too surprising...)
>
>Lou
>
>On 12/19/2012 10:46 AM, BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO) wrote:
>> Hi Daniele,
>>
>> Thanks a lot for your effort to summarize mail exchange.
>>
>> About the content and definitions , I would support the Lou position.
>> I think that in this context many of the concepts and
>definitions have been proposed , are already present in the
>IETF document.
>>
>> ONI definition and OE and OC definitions surely does not
>help to clarify scenarios that has been already debated in the
>VPN context .
>>
>> I support UNI only definition without to complicate
>proliferating with other interface definitions, and the usage
>of CE ,PE for nodes.
>> Moreover I have also perplexity about the definition of
>Virtual Link and Virtual Topology.
>>
>> What are the difference and the added values to have very
>similar definitions to what already well defined in the MRN context ?
>>
>> Thanks again for your effort.
>>
>> Ciao
>> Sergio
>>
>> Belotti Sergio - System Architect
>> ALCATEL-LUCENT  Optics Division
>>
>> -----Messaggio originale-----
>> Da: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org]
>Per conto di Daniele Ceccarelli
>> Inviato: mercoled=EC 19 dicembre 2012 16.32
>> A: Lou Berger
>> Cc: CCAMP
>> Oggetto: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>
>>  Lou, it's just a matter of convenience.
>>
>> Why should is say:
>> "customer interface/link between an OE and an OC in the
>overlay model context supporting both signaling and routing
>message exchange that is called UNI when only signaling is supported"
>>
>> ...when i could simply say: ONI? :)
>>
>> BR
>> Daniele
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
>>> Sent: mercoled=EC 19 dicembre 2012 16.09
>>> To: Daniele Ceccarelli
>>> Cc: CCAMP
>>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>>
>>> Daniele,
>>>     see below.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/19/2012 5:56 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
>>>> Hi Lou,
>>>>
>>>> Plese find replies in line.
>>>>
>>>> BR
>>>> Daniele
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
>>>>> Sent: luned=EC 17 dicembre 2012 20.45
>>>>> To: Daniele Ceccarelli
>>>>> Cc: CCAMP
>>>>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Daniele,
>>>>>   Thanks for getting this on-list discussion going.  I have some
>>>>> comments and questions:
>>>>>
>>>>> - So what's a "client layer network" in this context?
>Perhaps you
>>>>> mean OC or "(overlay) customer layer"?
>>>>
>>>> Yes. The terms client layer and server layer are
>>> reminescences to be corrected.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> - So what's a "server layer network" in this context?
>Perhaps you
>>>>> mean OE or "(overlay) provider layer"?
>>>>
>>>> Again correct
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> - For OC, I'd thing referring back to a CE in the VPN
>context, and
>>>>> likewise to a PE for an OE, is helpful context.
>>>>
>>>> In the case of the interface we generally define the ONI as
>>> an overlay
>>>> interface that in a particular case is called UNI.
>>>
>>> I have no idea what this means.  I suspect it relates to
>>> comments below, so will discuss there.
>>>
>>>> I would
>>>> apply the same method: those nodes are called Overlay Customer and
>>>> Overlay Edge and in the particular case of VPNs they are the
>>> CE and PE
>>>> respectively. What about that?
>>>>
>>>
>>> How about:
>>>
>>> An OC is analogous to an L3VPN CE, and an OE is analogous to
>>> an L3VPN PE (with a provider based VPN).
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> - As you mention in the Appendix, (from the OC perspective)
>>> there is
>>>>> no difference between a virtual and real node (and
>>> presumably link as
>>>>> well).  Given this and your comment in 8, that the ONI
>can take the
>>>>> form of a UNI or include both signaling and routing (i.e., a
>>>>> peer/I-NNI or
>>>>> E-NNI) what value is there in introducing the ONI term?
>>> Said another
>>>>> way, there's no specific term for the interface between a
>CE and PE
>>>>> in L3VPNs, so why do we need to introduce one in this context?
>>>>
>>>> We gave a name to the UNI, why don't giving to the ONI?
>>>
>>> Because redundant/unnecessary terminology only obfuscates.
>>>
>>> Why not customer interface/link? This has been sufficient
>for L3VPNs.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think this same comment probably holds for the O-NNI
>>> (e.g., what's
>>>>> the name of the interface between providers which support L3VPN
>>>>> handoffs?)...
>>>>
>>>> I would suggest giving a name to that interface also in
>>> order to distinguish between an "internal" and an "external"
>>> link when multiple overlay provider network domains are present.
>>>>
>>>
>>> How about inter-provider interface/link? Again, this has been
>>> sufficient for L3VPNs.
>>>
>>> Lou
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Much thanks,
>>>>> Lou
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12/17/2012 6:17 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
>>>>>> Dear CCAMPers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the
>>>>> Overlay model framework and related works took place. Some
>>>>> discussions led to some sort of agreemet among a small group of
>>>>> people, some others to a set a viable options, some others
>>> to totally
>>>>> open issues. I tried to summarize the output of such discussions
>>>>> below so to progress the discussions into a single thread
>on the WG
>>>>> ML.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a
>>>>> well shaped and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to
>provide the
>>>>> basis for starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea
>(step 1)
>>>>> instead of starting it from scratch (step 0).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a
>>>>> proposal of the overlay scenario.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Daniele
>>>>>>
>>>>>> + Disclaimer:
>>>>>>  1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work
>>>>> can be extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> + Terminology:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between
>>>>> two virtual or real network elements in a client layer
>network that
>>>>> is maintained/controlled in and by the server domain
>control plane
>>>>> (and as such cannot transport any traffic/data and protected from
>>>>> being de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the
>>> data plane
>>>>> (and then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving
>>>>> previously advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.
>>>>>>  2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or
>>>>> more server network  domain nodes that are collectively
>represented
>>>>> to the clients as a single node that exists in the client layer
>>>>> network and is capable of terminating of access, inter-domain and
>>>>> virtual links.
>>>>>>  3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one
>>>>> or more virtual or real server network domain nodes that
>>> exist in the
>>>>> client layer network and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual
>>>>> links.
>>>>>>  4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies
>>>>> provided by each of server network domains, access and
>inter-domain
>>>>> links.
>>>>>>  5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that
>>>>> link. It can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
>>>>>>  6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208
>>>>> teminology  but (i) receiving virtual topology from the
>>> core network
>>>>> and requesting the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting the
>>>>> computation and establishment of a path accordingly to gien
>>>>> constraints in the core network and receiving the parameters
>>>>> characterizing such path. (ii) =3D=3D UNI.
>>>>>>  7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but
>>>>> able to deal with (i) and (ii) above.
>>>>>>  8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for
>>>>> signaling and routing messages exchange between Overlay and  Core
>>>>> network. Routing information consists on virtual topology
>>>>> advertisement. When there is no routing adjacency across the
>>>>> interface it is equivalent to the GMPLS UNI defined in 4208.
>>>>> Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208.
>Information  related
>>>>> to path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected  SRLG,
>>> path delay
>>>>> etc, either passed from OE to OC via  signaling after the LSP
>>>>> establishment in the core network or from OC to OE to be
>>> used as path
>>>>> computation constraints, fall  under the definition of
>>> signaling info
>>>>> and not routing info).
>>>>>>  9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the
>>>>> links between different core networks in the overlay model
>>>>> environment, i.e. Between border OEs. Same features of the
>>> ONI apply
>>>>> to this interface. Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name
>>> is needed?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> + Statements
>>>>>>  1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build
>>>>> an overlay
>>>>>> topology for the client network domains  2. The overlay
>>>>> topology is comprised of:
>>>>>>     a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the
>>>>> server network domains). They can be PSC or LSC.
>>>>>>     b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server
>>>>> network domains)
>>>>>>     c) virtual topology provided by the server network
>>>>> domains. Virtual Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) +
>Connectivity Matrix
>>>>> (with a set of parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments,
>delay etc
>>>>> for each entry) describing connectivity between access links and
>>>>> virtual links.
>>>>>>  3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy
>>> of overlay
>>>>>> topologies with overlay/underlay relationships  4. In the
>>> context of
>>>>>> overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships
>>>>> are peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network
>>>>> integration  5. The overlay model assumes one instance for
>>> the client
>>>>> network and a separate instance for the server network and
>>> in the ONI
>>>>> case the server network also surreptitiously participates in the
>>>>> client network by injecting virtual topology information into it.
>>>>>>  6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over
>>>>> the ONI (it falls under the UNI case as no routing
>adjacency is in
>>>>> place between OC and OE).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> + Open issues/questions
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about
>>>>> PCE and PCEP into the overlay framework context?
>>>>>>  2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
>>>>>>  3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> + Appendix:
>>>>>> Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>>>>>> 1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale
>>>>> because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs
>>> have the
>>>>> same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs
>>>>>> 2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is
>>>>> by having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the
>>>>> middle of the virtual topology
>>>>>> 3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server
>>>>> domain switches, because, generally speaking:
>>>>>>   a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
>>>>>>   b)Real switches are named from different naming space
>>>>>>   c)real switches individually may not have sufficient
>>>>> resources to terminate virtual links (while a group of real
>>> switches
>>>>> collectively will have)
>>>>>>   d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual
>>>>> node have better scalability qualities
>>>>>> 4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real
>>>>> node, you need to keep in mind that real server domain
>>> switches are,
>>>>> generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must
>expose their
>>>>> connectivity matrices
>>>>>> 5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that
>>>>> could potentially go through a real server domain switch, the
>>>>> latter's connectivity matrix must expose "internal"
>SRLGs, so that
>>>>> the two services traversing the switch will not
>simultaneously fail
>>>>> if a single internal element shared by the services fails
>>>>>> 6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be
>>>>> addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies
>with blocking
>>>>> switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no
>>> difference
>>>>> between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
>>>>>> 7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected
>>>>> to server network domain must be upgraded so that they could
>>>>> understand the connectivity matrices advertised by the
>border nodes
>>>>> describing connectivity constraints between access links
>>> and virtual
>>>>> links they terminate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>>>>> DANIELE CECCARELLI
>>>>>> System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Via E.Melen, 77
>>>>>> Genova, Italy
>>>>>> Phone +390106002512
>>>>>> Mobile +393346725750
>>>>>> daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>>>>>> www.ericsson.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive
>>>>> email on
>>>>>> the basis of the term set out at
>www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

From IBryskin@advaoptical.com  Wed Dec 19 09:03:20 2012
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From: Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>
To: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>, Gert Grammel <ggrammel@juniper.net>, CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Daniele,
Please, see in line.

-----Original Message-----
From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 9:53 AM
To: Igor Bryskin; Gert Grammel; CCAMP
Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context

Hi Igor,

Just focusing on the virtual links for a while; i must admit that i'm a bit=
 confused by your last mail. Let's pick the figure i sent.

>OC1                               OC2
>  \    +---+IF2       IF3+---+    /
>   \IF1|OE1|-------------|OE2|IF4/
>       +---+             +---+
>
>A) Virtual link is from OC1 to OC2
>B) Virtual link is from IF1 to IF4
>C) Virtual link is from IF2 to IF3

IB>> My understanding of your picture is this:

OC1------If1:OE1                                     OE2:IF4---------OC2
                       OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2
My answer : is neither a), b) nor c)

OC1------If1:OE1  =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF4---------=
OC2
                       OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2

VL is between OE1 and OE 2, potential server trail is between IF2 and IF3

According to the definition given:
"A virtual link is a potential path between two virtual or real network ele=
ments in a client layer"=20
I would say that a virtual link is from OC1 to OC2, which is A).

IB>> See above

Then, from your latest definition:
" a potential path between two virtual or real server domain network elemen=
ts"
I would say that a virtual link can be either B) or C).
IB>> See above

Then you speak about access links, which implies that the link between OC1 =
and OE1 has its own dignity and hence that the virtual link is C) in pictur=
e above.=20

IB>> Links OC1- OE1 and OC2-OE2 are access links

Now i have 2 questions:

Q1: can you confirm that a virtual link is C)? Then we need to update the d=
efinition of a virtual link removing any misleading reference to client/ser=
ver domain Network elements and speak about OCs and OEs. =20

Q2: if on the other side we considered the virtual link being B) (i.e. From=
 IF1 to IF4 hence with an "implicit" node connectivity matrix) which would =
be the drawbacks of this solution?

IB>>  VL cannot start on a customer facing interface. OE is a (blocking) sw=
itch between access and virtual TE links


Thanks
Daniele





>-----Original Message-----
>From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com]
>Sent: luned=EC 17 dicembre 2012 21.12
>To: Gert Grammel; Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP
>Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>Gert,
>
>Please, see in line. I disagree with pretty much everything you say.=20
>Igor
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20
>Of Gert Grammel
>Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 8:27 AM
>To: Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP
>Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>Daniele,
>
>Thank you for summarizing the current state of discussion. To move=20
>forward and to encourage comments, let me point to some of the issues=20
>that are debated:
>
>1) Virtual Link: in the terminology statement a virtual link seems to=20
>connect two client elements.
>IB>> The definition says:
>"1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between two=20
>virtual or real network elements in a client layer", what makes you=20
>think that anyone ever applied that this is a path between client=20
>devices? The definition should say, though: " a potential path between=20
>two virtual or real server domain network elements"
>
> However later on the 3) virtual topology is composed of access links=20
>and virtual links. Hence. Virtual links connect server nodes, not=20
>client nodes.
>IB>> see above
>
> By doing so, segments (AL and VL) are created.
>
>2) The scalability consideration in the appendix for VL is based on=20
>terminology 1) rather than on virtual topology
>
>IB>> I completely disagree with this, see below
>
>3). This way it doesn't describe then the  scalability of a virtual=20
>topology (which doesn't necessitate a full mesh) but rather that of a=20
>virtual node (which implies a full connectivity matrix).
>
>To sum up:
>1) we have to come up with a crisp definition of a VL in a virtual=20
>topology that is different from a terminology 1) VL.
>Here is a gap
>2) A Model based on a vitual node or 'terminology 1) links'=20
>create n**2 problems on client side and does not scale.
>3) 'VNT'-virtual-links 3) and access links are supposed to address the=20
>scaling problem. We need to clean up our terminology. Otherwise we end=20
>up associating limitations of terminology 1) links with VNT-links that=20
>address those limitations.
>
>IB>> It seems to me that you completely misunderstand current=20
>IB>> definitions
>
>Now looking at the appendix it sadly reflects the terminology confusion=20
>and jumps to assessment and conclusions. That's unfortunate:
>
>The first line says:
>Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly,
>--> is it now about virtual nodes or virtual links or VNT links?
>IB>> Virtual Link Model includes access, inter-domain and
>virtual links
>IB>> but does not include virtual nodes
>
>2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is by=20
>having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the middle=20
>of the virtual topology
>--> that's why access links are so useful. They end at server nodes=20
>--> which are connected via virtual links
>
>IB>> A combination of access and virtual links alone *does not
>address N**2 problem*.
>Consider 1000 client devices connected via 1000 access links to the=20
>network that need to be fully interconnected. You will need 1000000 VLs=20
>to do so. You need to have one or more Virtual Nodes in the middle of=20
>the virtual topology to solve this issue. Overlay Network Topology is=20
>no different from real network topology, and real network topologies do=20
>include Ps, not just PEs
>=20
>3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain=20
>switches, because, generally speaking:
>--> in case of VNT-VLs no intermediate nodes are necessarily required
>IB>> See  above, IMO you are dead wrong
>
>4.  --> No need to comment, this way doesn't scale anyway.
>IB>> ONTs with virtual nodes scale no worse that real network
>topologies
>
>5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could=20
>potentially go through a real server domain switch, the latter's=20
>connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so that the two=20
>services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail if a single=20
>internal element shared by the services fails
>--> who is 'you' that computes? A client selects among VNT
>virtual links based on exposed SRLGs, VLs are computed by the server=20
>with full knowledge of constraints. So what does an 'internal' SRLG=20
>mean to a server path computation?
>
>IB>> You is the client path computer. If the two paths are
>going through
>IB>> the same node, they may overlap inside the node, which means they=20
>IB>> can be brought down by a single network failure. That's why you=20
>IB>> need to expose  node's internal SRLGs or try to find node
>disjoint
>IB>> paths (which may not be available)
>
>6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be=20
>addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking=20
>switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no difference=20
>between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
>--> I suggest to model a complete network of say 5 nodes in a
>single VN and compare it with the model of a single real node.
>
>IB>> Please, do that
>
>--> The assessments made have used a terminology definition
>that doesn't really capture the case made for VNT-VLs.
>That's why I would have had appreciated to split definitions and work=20
>items agreed among a group from individual assessments in separate=20
>emails.
>Nevertheless I consider the first part of your email (all except the=20
>appendix) as a good starting point for further clarification.
>
>Gert
>________________________________________
>From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Daniele Ceccarelli
>Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 12:17:08 PM
>To: CCAMP
>Subject: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>Dear CCAMPers,
>
>In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the Overlay model=20
>framework and related works took place. Some discussions led to some=20
>sort of agreemet among a small group of people, some others to a set a=20
>viable options, some others to totally open issues. I tried to=20
>summarize the output of such discussions below so to progress the=20
>discussions into a single thread on the WG ML.
>
>Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a well shaped=20
>and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to provide the basis for=20
>starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea (step 1) instead of=20
>starting it from scratch (step 0).
>
>In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a proposal of the=20
>overlay scenario.
>
>Thanks,
>Daniele
>
>+ Disclaimer:
> 1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work can be=20
>extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.
>
>+ Terminology:
>
> 1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between two=20
>virtual or real network elements in a client layer network  that is=20
>maintained/controlled in and by the server domain control plane (and as=20
>such cannot transport any traffic/data and protected from being=20
>de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the data plane (and=20
>then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving previously=20
>advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.
> 2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or more server=20
>network  domain nodes that are collectively represented to the clients=20
>as a single node that exists in the client layer network and is capable=20
>of terminating of access, inter-domain and virtual links.
> 3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one or more=20
>virtual or real server network domain nodes that exist in the client=20
>layer network and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual links.
> 4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies provided by=20
>each of server network domains, access and inter-domain links.
> 5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that link. It=20
>can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
> 6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208 teminology =20
>but (i) receiving virtual topology from the core network and requesting=20
>the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting the computation and=20
>establishment of a path accordingly to gien constraints in the core=20
>network and receiving the parameters characterizing such path. (ii) =3D=3D=
=20
>UNI.
> 7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but able to=20
>deal with (i) and (ii) above.
> 8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for signaling=20
>and routing messages exchange between Overlay and Core network. Routing=20
>information consists on virtual topology advertisement. When there is=20
>no routing adjacency across the interface it is equivalent to the GMPLS=20
>UNI defined in 4208.
>Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information related to=20
>path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected SRLG, path delay etc,=20
>either passed from OE to OC via signaling after the LSP establishment=20
>in the core network or from OC to OE to be used as path computation=20
>constraints, fall under the definition of signaling info and not=20
>routing info).
> 9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the links=20
>between different core networks in the overlay model environment, i.e.=20
>Between border OEs. Same features of the ONI apply to this interface.=20
>Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name is needed?
>
>+ Statements
> 1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build an overlay=20
>topology for the client network domains  2. The overlay topology is=20
>comprised of:
>    a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the server network=20
>domains). They can be PSC or LSC.
>    b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server network=20
>domains)
>    c) virtual topology provided by the server network domains. Virtual=20
>Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) + Connectivity Matrix (with a set of=20
>parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments, delay etc for each entry)=20
>describing connectivity between access links and virtual links.
> 3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy  of overlay=20
>topologies with overlay/underlay relationships  4. In the context of=20
>overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships are=20
>peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network integration  5.=20
>The overlay model assumes one instance for the client network and a=20
>separate instance for the server network and in the ONI case the server=20
>network also surreptitiously participates in the client network by=20
>injecting virtual topology information into it.
> 6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over the ONI (it=20
>falls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency is in place between OC=20
>and OE).
>
>+ Open issues/questions
>
> 1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about PCE and PCEP=20
>into the overlay framework context?
> 2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
> 3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?
>
>+ Appendix:
>Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale=20
>because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs have the=20
>same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs
>2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is by=20
>having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the middle=20
>of the virtual topology
>3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain=20
>switches, because, generally speaking:
>  a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
>  b)Real switches are named from different naming space
>  c)real switches individually may not have sufficient resources to=20
>terminate virtual links (while a group of real switches collectively=20
>will have)
>  d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual node have=20
>better scalability qualities
>4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real node,=20
>you need to keep in mind that real server domain switches are,=20
>generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must expose their=20
>connectivity matrices
>5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could=20
>potentially go through a real server domain switch, the latter's=20
>connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so that the two=20
>services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail if a single=20
>internal element shared by the services fails
>6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be=20
>addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking=20
>switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no difference=20
>between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
>7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected to=20
>server network domain must be upgraded so that they could understand=20
>the connectivity matrices advertised by the border nodes describing=20
>connectivity constraints between access links and virtual links they=20
>terminate.
>
>
>
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>DANIELE CECCARELLI
>System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro
>
>Via E.Melen, 77
>Genova, Italy
>Phone +390106002512
>Mobile +393346725750
>daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>www.ericsson.com
>
>This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive email on=20
>the basis of the term set out at www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>CCAMP mailing list
>CCAMP@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>

From IBryskin@advaoptical.com  Wed Dec 19 09:27:48 2012
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From: Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>
To: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Lou, please see my answers to your questions

-----Original Message-----
From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of D=
aniele Ceccarelli
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 5:57 AM
To: Lou Berger
Cc: CCAMP
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context

Hi Lou,

Plese find replies in line.

BR
Daniele=20

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
>Sent: luned=EC 17 dicembre 2012 20.45
>To: Daniele Ceccarelli
>Cc: CCAMP
>Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>
>Daniele,
>	Thanks for getting this on-list discussion going.  I have some=20
>comments and questions:
>
>- So what's a "client layer network" in this context?  Perhaps you mean=20
>OC or "(overlay) customer layer"?

IB>> Client layer is where Overlay Network topology exists. It includes:
a) access links (connecting OCs to OEs)
b) virtual links (connecting OE / OVNs (Overlay Virtual Nodes) within a giv=
en server domain)
c) inter-domain links (connecting OE to OE that belong to neighboring serve=
r domains)
All three categories exist in the same client layer and named from the same=
 naming space

Yes. The terms client layer and server layer are reminescences to be correc=
ted.

>
>- So what's a "server layer network" in this context?  Perhaps you mean=20
>OE or "(overlay) provider layer"?

IB>> It is the layer where the UNT (Underlay Network Topology) exists (whic=
h may be in the same, lower or higher layer network than of the ONT)

Again correct

>
>- For OC, I'd thing referring back to a CE in the VPN context, and=20
>likewise to a PE for an OE, is helpful context.
IB>> agree

In the case of the interface we generally define the ONI as an overlay inte=
rface that in a particular case is called UNI. I would apply the same metho=
d: those nodes are called Overlay Customer and Overlay Edge and in the part=
icular case of VPNs they are the CE and PE respectively. What about that?

>
>- As you mention in the Appendix, (from the OC perspective) there is no=20
>difference between a virtual and real node
IB>> Agree=20

 (and presumably link as=20
>well).  Given this and your comment in 8, that the ONI can take the=20
>form of a UNI or include both signaling and routing (i.e., a peer/I-NNI=20
>or
>E-NNI) what value is there in introducing the ONI term?  Said another=20
>way, there's no specific term for the interface between a CE and PE in=20
>L3VPNs, so why do we need to introduce one in this context?

We gave a name to the UNI, why don't giving to the ONI?

IB>> As long as it allows for both or either signaling and/or routing excha=
nges

>
>I think this same comment probably holds for the O-NNI (e.g., what's=20
>the name of the interface between providers which support L3VPN=20
>handoffs?)...

I would suggest giving a name to that interface also in order to distinguis=
h between an "internal" and an "external" link when multiple overlay provid=
er network domains are present.

IB>> I like "access links" and "inter-domain links" better. Note also that =
a "link" and "node" are TE topology concepts and orthogonal to CP interface=
s (which are Signaling/Routing speakers). If you mean by "internal" and "ex=
ternal" links the CP connectivity, than I agree with you.

>
>Much thanks,
>Lou
>
>On 12/17/2012 6:17 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
>> Dear CCAMPers,
>>=20
>> In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the
>Overlay model framework and related works took place. Some discussions=20
>led to some sort of agreemet among a small group of people, some others=20
>to a set a viable options, some others to totally open issues. I tried=20
>to summarize the output of such discussions below so to progress the=20
>discussions into a single thread on the WG ML.
>>=20
>> Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a
>well shaped and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to provide the=20
>basis for starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea (step 1)=20
>instead of starting it from scratch (step 0).
>>=20
>> In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a
>proposal of the overlay scenario.
>>=20
>> Thanks,
>> Daniele
>>=20
>> + Disclaimer:
>>  1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work
>can be extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.
>>=20
>> + Terminology:
>>=20
>>  1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between
>two virtual or real network elements in a client layer network  that is=20
>maintained/controlled in and by the server domain control plane (and as=20
>such cannot transport any traffic/data and protected from being=20
>de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the data plane (and=20
>then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving previously=20
>advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.
>>  2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or
>more server network  domain nodes that are collectively represented to=20
>the clients as a single node that exists in the client layer network=20
>and is capable of terminating of access, inter-domain and virtual=20
>links.
>>  3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one
>or more virtual or real server network domain nodes that exist in the=20
>client layer network and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual=20
>links.
>>  4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies
>provided by each of server network domains, access and inter-domain=20
>links.
>>  5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that
>link. It can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
>>  6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208
>teminology  but (i) receiving virtual topology from the core network=20
>and requesting the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting the=20
>computation and establishment of a path accordingly to gien constraints=20
>in the core network and receiving the parameters characterizing such=20
>path. (ii) =3D=3D UNI.
>>  7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but
>able to deal with (i) and (ii) above.
>>  8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for
>signaling and routing messages exchange between Overlay and Core=20
>network. Routing information consists on virtual topology=20
>advertisement. When there is no routing adjacency across the interface=20
>it is equivalent to the GMPLS UNI defined in 4208.
>Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information related to=20
>path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected SRLG, path delay etc,=20
>either passed from OE to OC via signaling after the LSP establishment=20
>in the core network or from OC to OE to be used as path computation=20
>constraints, fall under the definition of signaling info and not=20
>routing info).
>>  9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the
>links between different core networks in the overlay model environment,=20
>i.e. Between border OEs. Same features of the ONI apply to this=20
>interface. Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name is needed?
>>=20
>> + Statements
>>  1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build
>an overlay
>> topology for the client network domains  2. The overlay
>topology is comprised of:
>>     a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the
>server network domains). They can be PSC or LSC.
>>     b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server
>network domains)  =20
>>     c) virtual topology provided by the server network
>domains. Virtual Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) + Connectivity Matrix=20
>(with a set of parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments, delay etc for=20
>each entry) describing connectivity between access links and virtual=20
>links.
>>  3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy  of overlay=20
>> topologies with overlay/underlay relationships  4. In the context of=20
>> overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships
>are peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network integration =20
>5. The overlay model assumes one instance for the client network and a=20
>separate instance for the server network and in the ONI case the server=20
>network also surreptitiously participates in the client network by=20
>injecting virtual topology information into it.
>>  6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over
>the ONI (it falls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency is in=20
>place between OC and OE).
>>=20
>> + Open issues/questions
>> =20
>>  1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about
>PCE and PCEP into the overlay framework context?
>>  2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
>>  3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?
>>=20
>> + Appendix:
>> Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>> 1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale=20
>because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs have the=20
>same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs
>> 2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is=20
>by having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the=20
>middle of the virtual topology
>> 3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server=20
>domain switches, because, generally speaking:
>>   a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
>>   b)Real switches are named from different naming space
>>   c)real switches individually may not have sufficient
>resources to terminate virtual links (while a group of real switches=20
>collectively will have)
>>   d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual
>node have better scalability qualities
>> 4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real=20
>node, you need to keep in mind that real server domain switches are,=20
>generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must expose their=20
>connectivity matrices
>> 5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that=20
>could potentially go through a real server domain switch, the latter's=20
>connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so that the two=20
>services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail if a single=20
>internal element shared by the services fails
>> 6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be=20
>addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking=20
>switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no difference=20
>between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
>> 7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected=20
>to server network domain must be upgraded so that they could understand=20
>the connectivity matrices advertised by the border nodes describing=20
>connectivity constraints between access links and virtual links they=20
>terminate.
>>=20
>>=20
>> =20
>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>> DANIELE CECCARELLI
>> System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro
>>=20
>> Via E.Melen, 77
>> Genova, Italy
>> Phone +390106002512
>> Mobile +393346725750
>> daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>> www.ericsson.com
>>=20
>> This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive
>email on
>> the basis of the term set out at www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>=20
>
_______________________________________________
CCAMP mailing list
CCAMP@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp

From lberger@labn.net  Wed Dec 19 09:38:57 2012
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From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
To: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 12:38:33 -0500
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Okay. This helps .so to simplify even further, we have the following 
alternatives:
ONI = overlay customer interface.

Right?

Lou



On December 19, 2012 11:23:50 AM Daniele Ceccarelli 
<daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Basically yes; being fussy i would say:
>
> For the signaling+routing(normal case):
> 	LB) customer interface with signaling and routing
> 	DC) ONI
> For the UNI case:
>  	LB) customer interface with UNI
> 	DC) UNI
>
> BR
> Daniele
>
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
> >Sent: mercoledÃ¬ 19 dicembre 2012 16.54
> >To: Daniele Ceccarelli
> >Cc: CCAMP
> >Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
> >
> >Daniele,
> >	If ONI is a superset (i.e., covers all cases), what's
> >the difference.
> >So the terminology options are:
> >
> >For the signaling+routing(normal case):
> >	LB) customer interface with signaling and routing
> >	DC) ONI with signaling and routing
> >For the UNI case:
> > 	LB) customer interface with UNI
> >	DC) ONI with UNI
> >
> >Right?
> >
> >Lou
> >
> >On 12/19/2012 10:32 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
> >>  Lou, it's just a matter of convenience.
> >>
> >> Why should is say:
> >> "customer interface/link between an OE and an OC in the
> >overlay model context supporting both signaling and routing
> >message exchange that is called UNI when only signaling is supported"
> >>
> >> ...when i could simply say: ONI? :)
> >>
> >> BR
> >> Daniele
> >>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
> >>> Sent: mercoledÃ¬ 19 dicembre 2012 16.09
> >>> To: Daniele Ceccarelli
> >>> Cc: CCAMP
> >>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
> >>>
> >>> Daniele,
> >>> 	see below.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 12/19/2012 5:56 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
> >>>> Hi Lou,
> >>>>
> >>>> Plese find replies in line.
> >>>>
> >>>> BR
> >>>> Daniele
> >>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
> >>>>> Sent: lunedÃ¬ 17 dicembre 2012 20.45
> >>>>> To: Daniele Ceccarelli
> >>>>> Cc: CCAMP
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Daniele,
> >>>>> 	Thanks for getting this on-list discussion going.  I have some
> >>>>> comments and questions:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - So what's a "client layer network" in this context?
> >Perhaps you
> >>>>> mean OC or "(overlay) customer layer"?
> >>>>
> >>>> Yes. The terms client layer and server layer are
> >>> reminescences to be corrected.
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - So what's a "server layer network" in this context?
> >Perhaps you
> >>>>> mean OE or "(overlay) provider layer"?
> >>>>
> >>>> Again correct
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - For OC, I'd thing referring back to a CE in the VPN
> >context, and
> >>>>> likewise to a PE for an OE, is helpful context.
> >>>>
> >>>> In the case of the interface we generally define the ONI as
> >>> an overlay
> >>>> interface that in a particular case is called UNI.
> >>>
> >>> I have no idea what this means.  I suspect it relates to comments
> >>> below, so will discuss there.
> >>>
> >>>> I would
> >>>> apply the same method: those nodes are called Overlay Customer and
> >>>> Overlay Edge and in the particular case of VPNs they are the
> >>> CE and PE
> >>>> respectively. What about that?
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> How about:
> >>>
> >>> An OC is analogous to an L3VPN CE, and an OE is analogous
> >to an L3VPN
> >>> PE (with a provider based VPN).
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - As you mention in the Appendix, (from the OC perspective)
> >>> there is
> >>>>> no difference between a virtual and real node (and
> >>> presumably link as
> >>>>> well).  Given this and your comment in 8, that the ONI
> >can take the
> >>>>> form of a UNI or include both signaling and routing (i.e., a
> >>>>> peer/I-NNI or
> >>>>> E-NNI) what value is there in introducing the ONI term?
> >>> Said another
> >>>>> way, there's no specific term for the interface between a
> >CE and PE
> >>>>> in L3VPNs, so why do we need to introduce one in this context?
> >>>>
> >>>> We gave a name to the UNI, why don't giving to the ONI?
> >>>
> >>> Because redundant/unnecessary terminology only obfuscates.
> >>>
> >>> Why not customer interface/link? This has been sufficient
> >for L3VPNs.
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think this same comment probably holds for the O-NNI
> >>> (e.g., what's
> >>>>> the name of the interface between providers which support L3VPN
> >>>>> handoffs?)...
> >>>>
> >>>> I would suggest giving a name to that interface also in
> >>> order to distinguish between an "internal" and an "external"
> >>> link when multiple overlay provider network domains are present.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> How about inter-provider interface/link? Again, this has been
> >>> sufficient for L3VPNs.
> >>>
> >>> Lou
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Much thanks,
> >>>>> Lou
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 12/17/2012 6:17 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
> >>>>>> Dear CCAMPers,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the
> >>>>> Overlay model framework and related works took place. Some
> >>>>> discussions led to some sort of agreemet among a small group of
> >>>>> people, some others to a set a viable options, some others
> >>> to totally
> >>>>> open issues. I tried to summarize the output of such discussions
> >>>>> below so to progress the discussions into a single thread
> >on the WG
> >>>>> ML.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a
> >>>>> well shaped and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to
> >provide the
> >>>>> basis for starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea
> >(step 1)
> >>>>> instead of starting it from scratch (step 0).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a
> >>>>> proposal of the overlay scenario.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>> Daniele
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> + Disclaimer:
> >>>>>>  1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work
> >>>>> can be extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> + Terminology:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>  1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between
> >>>>> two virtual or real network elements in a client layer
> >network that
> >>>>> is maintained/controlled in and by the server domain
> >control plane
> >>>>> (and as such cannot transport any traffic/data and protected from
> >>>>> being de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the
> >>> data plane
> >>>>> (and then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving
> >>>>> previously advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.
> >>>>>>  2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or
> >>>>> more server network  domain nodes that are collectively
> >represented
> >>>>> to the clients as a single node that exists in the client layer
> >>>>> network and is capable of terminating of access, inter-domain and
> >>>>> virtual links.
> >>>>>>  3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one
> >>>>> or more virtual or real server network domain nodes that
> >>> exist in the
> >>>>> client layer network and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual
> >>>>> links.
> >>>>>>  4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies
> >>>>> provided by each of server network domains, access and
> >inter-domain
> >>>>> links.
> >>>>>>  5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that
> >>>>> link. It can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
> >>>>>>  6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208
> >>>>> teminology  but (i) receiving virtual topology from the
> >>> core network
> >>>>> and requesting the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting the
> >>>>> computation and establishment of a path accordingly to gien
> >>>>> constraints in the core network and receiving the parameters
> >>>>> characterizing such path. (ii) == UNI.
> >>>>>>  7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but
> >>>>> able to deal with (i) and (ii) above.
> >>>>>>  8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for
> >>>>> signaling and routing messages exchange between Overlay and  Core
> >>>>> network. Routing information consists on virtual topology
> >>>>> advertisement. When there is no routing adjacency across the
> >>>>> interface it is equivalent to the GMPLS UNI defined in 4208.
> >>>>> Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208.
> >Information  related
> >>>>> to path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected  SRLG,
> >>> path delay
> >>>>> etc, either passed from OE to OC via  signaling after the LSP
> >>>>> establishment in the core network or from OC to OE to be
> >>> used as path
> >>>>> computation constraints, fall  under the definition of
> >>> signaling info
> >>>>> and not routing info).
> >>>>>>  9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the
> >>>>> links between different core networks in the overlay model
> >>>>> environment, i.e. Between border OEs. Same features of the
> >>> ONI apply
> >>>>> to this interface. Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name
> >>> is needed?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> + Statements
> >>>>>>  1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build
> >>>>> an overlay
> >>>>>> topology for the client network domains  2. The overlay
> >>>>> topology is comprised of:
> >>>>>>     a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the
> >>>>> server network domains). They can be PSC or LSC.
> >>>>>>     b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server
> >>>>> network domains)
> >>>>>>     c) virtual topology provided by the server network
> >>>>> domains. Virtual Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) +
> >Connectivity Matrix
> >>>>> (with a set of parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments,
> >delay etc
> >>>>> for each entry) describing connectivity between access links and
> >>>>> virtual links.
> >>>>>>  3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy
> >>> of overlay
> >>>>>> topologies with overlay/underlay relationships  4. In the
> >>> context of
> >>>>>> overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships
> >>>>> are peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network
> >>>>> integration  5. The overlay model assumes one instance for
> >>> the client
> >>>>> network and a separate instance for the server network and
> >>> in the ONI
> >>>>> case the server network also surreptitiously participates in the
> >>>>> client network by injecting virtual topology information into it.
> >>>>>>  6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over
> >>>>> the ONI (it falls under the UNI case as no routing
> >adjacency is in
> >>>>> place between OC and OE).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> + Open issues/questions
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>  1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about
> >>>>> PCE and PCEP into the overlay framework context?
> >>>>>>  2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
> >>>>>>  3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> + Appendix:
> >>>>>> Some notes on the Virtual Node:
> >>>>>> 1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale
> >>>>> because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs
> >>> have the
> >>>>> same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs
> >>>>>> 2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is
> >>>>> by having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the
> >>>>> middle of the virtual topology
> >>>>>> 3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server
> >>>>> domain switches, because, generally speaking:
> >>>>>>   a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
> >>>>>>   b)Real switches are named from different naming space
> >>>>>>   c)real switches individually may not have sufficient
> >>>>> resources to terminate virtual links (while a group of real
> >>> switches
> >>>>> collectively will have)
> >>>>>>   d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual
> >>>>> node have better scalability qualities
> >>>>>> 4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real
> >>>>> node, you need to keep in mind that real server domain
> >>> switches are,
> >>>>> generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must
> >expose their
> >>>>> connectivity matrices
> >>>>>> 5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that
> >>>>> could potentially go through a real server domain switch, the
> >>>>> latter's connectivity matrix must expose "internal"
> >SRLGs, so that
> >>>>> the two services traversing the switch will not
> >simultaneously fail
> >>>>> if a single internal element shared by the services fails
> >>>>>> 6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be
> >>>>> addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies
> >with blocking
> >>>>> switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no
> >>> difference
> >>>>> between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
> >>>>>> 7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected
> >>>>> to server network domain must be upgraded so that they could
> >>>>> understand the connectivity matrices advertised by the
> >border nodes
> >>>>> describing connectivity constraints between access links
> >>> and virtual
> >>>>> links they terminate.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ===================================
> >>>>>> DANIELE CECCARELLI
> >>>>>> System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Via E.Melen, 77
> >>>>>> Genova, Italy
> >>>>>> Phone +390106002512
> >>>>>> Mobile +393346725750
> >>>>>> daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
> >>>>>> www.ericsson.com
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive
> >>>>> email on
> >>>>>> the basis of the term set out at
> >www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> CCAMP mailing list
> >>>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
> >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >



From lberger@labn.net  Wed Dec 19 15:08:01 2012
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Igor,

You said:
IB>> I like "access links" and "inter-domain links" better.

This works for me.

Lou

On 12/19/2012 12:27 PM, Igor Bryskin wrote:
> Lou, please see my answers to your questions
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Daniele Ceccarelli
> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 5:57 AM
> To: Lou Berger
> Cc: CCAMP
> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
> 
> Hi Lou,
> 
> Plese find replies in line.
> 
> BR
> Daniele 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
>> Sent: lunedì 17 dicembre 2012 20.45
>> To: Daniele Ceccarelli
>> Cc: CCAMP
>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>
>>
>> Daniele,
>> 	Thanks for getting this on-list discussion going.  I have some 
>> comments and questions:
>>
>> - So what's a "client layer network" in this context?  Perhaps you mean 
>> OC or "(overlay) customer layer"?
> 
> IB>> Client layer is where Overlay Network topology exists. It includes:
> a) access links (connecting OCs to OEs)
> b) virtual links (connecting OE / OVNs (Overlay Virtual Nodes) within a given server domain)
> c) inter-domain links (connecting OE to OE that belong to neighboring server domains)
> All three categories exist in the same client layer and named from the same naming space
> 
> Yes. The terms client layer and server layer are reminescences to be corrected.
> 
>>
>> - So what's a "server layer network" in this context?  Perhaps you mean 
>> OE or "(overlay) provider layer"?
> 
> IB>> It is the layer where the UNT (Underlay Network Topology) exists (which may be in the same, lower or higher layer network than of the ONT)
> 
> Again correct
> 
>>
>> - For OC, I'd thing referring back to a CE in the VPN context, and 
>> likewise to a PE for an OE, is helpful context.
> IB>> agree
> 
> In the case of the interface we generally define the ONI as an overlay interface that in a particular case is called UNI. I would apply the same method: those nodes are called Overlay Customer and Overlay Edge and in the particular case of VPNs they are the CE and PE respectively. What about that?
> 
>>
>> - As you mention in the Appendix, (from the OC perspective) there is no 
>> difference between a virtual and real node
> IB>> Agree 
> 
>  (and presumably link as 
>> well).  Given this and your comment in 8, that the ONI can take the 
>> form of a UNI or include both signaling and routing (i.e., a peer/I-NNI 
>> or
>> E-NNI) what value is there in introducing the ONI term?  Said another 
>> way, there's no specific term for the interface between a CE and PE in 
>> L3VPNs, so why do we need to introduce one in this context?
> 
> We gave a name to the UNI, why don't giving to the ONI?
> 
> IB>> As long as it allows for both or either signaling and/or routing exchanges
> 
>>
>> I think this same comment probably holds for the O-NNI (e.g., what's 
>> the name of the interface between providers which support L3VPN 
>> handoffs?)...
> 
> I would suggest giving a name to that interface also in order to distinguish between an "internal" and an "external" link when multiple overlay provider network domains are present.
> 
> IB>> I like "access links" and "inter-domain links" better. Note also that a "link" and "node" are TE topology concepts and orthogonal to CP interfaces (which are Signaling/Routing speakers). If you mean by "internal" and "external" links the CP connectivity, than I agree with you.
> 
>>
>> Much thanks,
>> Lou
>>
>> On 12/17/2012 6:17 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
>>> Dear CCAMPers,
>>>
>>> In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the
>> Overlay model framework and related works took place. Some discussions 
>> led to some sort of agreemet among a small group of people, some others 
>> to a set a viable options, some others to totally open issues. I tried 
>> to summarize the output of such discussions below so to progress the 
>> discussions into a single thread on the WG ML.
>>>
>>> Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a
>> well shaped and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to provide the 
>> basis for starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea (step 1) 
>> instead of starting it from scratch (step 0).
>>>
>>> In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a
>> proposal of the overlay scenario.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Daniele
>>>
>>> + Disclaimer:
>>>  1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work
>> can be extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.
>>>
>>> + Terminology:
>>>
>>>  1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between
>> two virtual or real network elements in a client layer network  that is 
>> maintained/controlled in and by the server domain control plane (and as 
>> such cannot transport any traffic/data and protected from being 
>> de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the data plane (and 
>> then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving previously 
>> advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.
>>>  2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or
>> more server network  domain nodes that are collectively represented to 
>> the clients as a single node that exists in the client layer network 
>> and is capable of terminating of access, inter-domain and virtual 
>> links.
>>>  3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one
>> or more virtual or real server network domain nodes that exist in the 
>> client layer network and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual 
>> links.
>>>  4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies
>> provided by each of server network domains, access and inter-domain 
>> links.
>>>  5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that
>> link. It can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
>>>  6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208
>> teminology  but (i) receiving virtual topology from the core network 
>> and requesting the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting the 
>> computation and establishment of a path accordingly to gien constraints 
>> in the core network and receiving the parameters characterizing such 
>> path. (ii) == UNI.
>>>  7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but
>> able to deal with (i) and (ii) above.
>>>  8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for
>> signaling and routing messages exchange between Overlay and Core 
>> network. Routing information consists on virtual topology 
>> advertisement. When there is no routing adjacency across the interface 
>> it is equivalent to the GMPLS UNI defined in 4208.
>> Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information related to 
>> path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected SRLG, path delay etc, 
>> either passed from OE to OC via signaling after the LSP establishment 
>> in the core network or from OC to OE to be used as path computation 
>> constraints, fall under the definition of signaling info and not 
>> routing info).
>>>  9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the
>> links between different core networks in the overlay model environment, 
>> i.e. Between border OEs. Same features of the ONI apply to this 
>> interface. Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name is needed?
>>>
>>> + Statements
>>>  1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build
>> an overlay
>>> topology for the client network domains  2. The overlay
>> topology is comprised of:
>>>     a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the
>> server network domains). They can be PSC or LSC.
>>>     b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server
>> network domains)   
>>>     c) virtual topology provided by the server network
>> domains. Virtual Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) + Connectivity Matrix 
>> (with a set of parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments, delay etc for 
>> each entry) describing connectivity between access links and virtual 
>> links.
>>>  3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy  of overlay 
>>> topologies with overlay/underlay relationships  4. In the context of 
>>> overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships
>> are peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network integration  
>> 5. The overlay model assumes one instance for the client network and a 
>> separate instance for the server network and in the ONI case the server 
>> network also surreptitiously participates in the client network by 
>> injecting virtual topology information into it.
>>>  6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over
>> the ONI (it falls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency is in 
>> place between OC and OE).
>>>
>>> + Open issues/questions
>>>  
>>>  1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about
>> PCE and PCEP into the overlay framework context?
>>>  2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
>>>  3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?
>>>
>>> + Appendix:
>>> Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>>> 1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale 
>> because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs have the 
>> same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs
>>> 2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is 
>> by having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the 
>> middle of the virtual topology
>>> 3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server 
>> domain switches, because, generally speaking:
>>>   a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
>>>   b)Real switches are named from different naming space
>>>   c)real switches individually may not have sufficient
>> resources to terminate virtual links (while a group of real switches 
>> collectively will have)
>>>   d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual
>> node have better scalability qualities
>>> 4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real 
>> node, you need to keep in mind that real server domain switches are, 
>> generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must expose their 
>> connectivity matrices
>>> 5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that 
>> could potentially go through a real server domain switch, the latter's 
>> connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so that the two 
>> services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail if a single 
>> internal element shared by the services fails
>>> 6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be 
>> addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking 
>> switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no difference 
>> between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
>>> 7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected 
>> to server network domain must be upgraded so that they could understand 
>> the connectivity matrices advertised by the border nodes describing 
>> connectivity constraints between access links and virtual links they 
>> terminate.
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>> ===================================
>>> DANIELE CECCARELLI
>>> System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro
>>>
>>> Via E.Melen, 77
>>> Genova, Italy
>>> Phone +390106002512
>>> Mobile +393346725750
>>> daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>>> www.ericsson.com
>>>
>>> This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive
>> email on
>>> the basis of the term set out at www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> 
> 
> 
> 

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Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 18:27:17 -0500
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model-05.txt
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Authors?

On 12/4/2012 3:31 PM, Lou Berger wrote:
> Authors,
> 	Please review any changes and how LC comments are addressed.
> 
> Thank you,
> Lou
> 
> On 11/28/2012 2:36 AM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>>
>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
>>  This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.
>>
>> 	Title           : Evaluation of existing GMPLS encoding against G.709v3 Optical Transport Networks (OTN)
>> 	Author(s)       : Sergio Belotti
>>                           Pietro Vittorio Grandi
>>                           Daniele Ceccarelli
>>                           Diego Caviglia
>>                           Fatai Zhang
>>                           Dan Li
>> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model-05.txt
>> 	Pages           : 22
>> 	Date            : 2012-11-27
>>
>> Abstract:
>>    The recent revision of ITU-T recommendation G.709 [G.709-2012] has
>>    introduced new fixed and flexible Optical Data Unit (ODU) containers
>>    in Optical Transport Networks (OTNs), enabling optimized support for
>>    an increasingly abundant service mix.
>>
>>    This document provides an evaluation of existing Generalized
>>    Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) routing and signaling methods
>>    against the G.709-2012 OTN networks.
>>
>>
>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model
>>
>> There's also a htmlized version available at:
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model-05
>>
>> A diff from the previous version is available at:
>> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model-05
>>
>>
>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> 
> 
> 
> 

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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-04.txt
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Authors?

On 12/4/2012 4:34 PM, Lou Berger wrote:
> Authors,
> 	Please review any changes and how LC comments are addressed.
> 
> Thank you,
> Lou
> 
> On 11/28/2012 2:37 AM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>>
>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
>>  This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.
>>
>> 	Title           : Traffic Engineering Extensions to OSPF for Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) Control of Evolving G.709 OTN Networks
>> 	Author(s)       : Daniele Ceccarelli
>>                           Diego Caviglia
>>                           Fatai Zhang
>>                           Dan Li
>>                           Sergio Belotti
>>                           Pietro Vittorio Grandi
>>                           Rajan Rao
>>                           Khuzema Pithewan
>>                           John E Drake
>> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-04.txt
>> 	Pages           : 33
>> 	Date            : 2012-11-27
>>
>> Abstract:
>>    ITU-T Recommendation G.709 [G.709-2012] has introduced new fixed and
>>    flexible Optical Data Unit (ODU) containers, enabling optimized
>>    support for an increasingly abundant service mix.
>>
>>    This document describes Open Shortest Path First - Traffic
>>    Engineering (OSPF-TE) routing protocol extensions to support
>>    Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) control of all currently defined ODU
>>    containers, in support of both sub-lambda and lambda level routing
>>    granularity.
>>
>>
>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3
>>
>> There's also a htmlized version available at:
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-04
>>
>> A diff from the previous version is available at:
>> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-04
>>
>>
>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
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From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Wed Dec 19 16:12:34 2012
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Subject: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-09.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.
 This draft is a work item of the Common Control and Measurement Plane Work=
ing Group of the IETF.

	Title           : Link Management Protocol Behavior Negotiation and Config=
uration Modifications
	Author(s)       : Dan Li
                          Daniele Ceccarelli
                          Lou Berger
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-09.txt
	Pages           : 11
	Date            : 2012-12-19

Abstract:
   The Link Management Protocol (LMP) is used to coordinate the
   properties, use, and faults of data links in Generalized
   Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) networks. This document
   defines an extension to LMP to negotiate capabilities and indicate
   support for LMP extensions. The defined extension is compatible
   with non-supporting implementations.

   This document updates RFC 4204, RFC 4207, RFC 4209 and RFC 5818.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-09

A diff from the previous version is available at:
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiatio=
n-09


Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From zhangfatai@huawei.com  Wed Dec 19 17:44:36 2012
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From: Fatai Zhang <zhangfatai@huawei.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>, "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)" <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>, Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
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References: <4A1562797D64E44993C5CBF38CF1BE48042C3B@ESESSMB301.ericsson.se> <50CF764E.603@labn.net> <4A1562797D64E44993C5CBF38CF1BE48045007@ESESSMB301.ericsson.se> <CDAC6F6F5401B245A2C68D0CF8AFDF0A191012D6@atl-srv-mail10.atl.advaoptical.com> <50D248B8.1090506@labn.net>
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From: Fatai Zhang <zhangfatai@huawei.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>, "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)" <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>, Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] R: R:  Overlay model framework and context
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Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 02:31:05 +0000
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From: "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)" <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 09:19:04 +0100
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Subject: [CCAMP] R:  Overlay model framework and context
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Why do not use OCI ..
ONI sounds more close to optical network interface that is not the case.

OCI--> Overlay Customer Interface


Sergio

Belotti Sergio - System Architect
ALCATEL-LUCENT  Optics Division

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] Per conto di Lou=
 Berger
Inviato: mercoled=EC 19 dicembre 2012 18.39
A: Daniele Ceccarelli
Cc: CCAMP
Oggetto: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context

Okay. This helps .so to simplify even further, we have the following
alternatives:
ONI =3D overlay customer interface.

Right?

Lou



On December 19, 2012 11:23:50 AM Daniele Ceccarelli
<daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Basically yes; being fussy i would say:
>
> For the signaling+routing(normal case):
>       LB) customer interface with signaling and routing
>       DC) ONI
> For the UNI case:
>       LB) customer interface with UNI
>       DC) UNI
>
> BR
> Daniele
>
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
> >Sent: mercoled=EC 19 dicembre 2012 16.54
> >To: Daniele Ceccarelli
> >Cc: CCAMP
> >Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
> >
> >Daniele,
> >     If ONI is a superset (i.e., covers all cases), what's
> >the difference.
> >So the terminology options are:
> >
> >For the signaling+routing(normal case):
> >     LB) customer interface with signaling and routing
> >     DC) ONI with signaling and routing
> >For the UNI case:
> >     LB) customer interface with UNI
> >     DC) ONI with UNI
> >
> >Right?
> >
> >Lou
> >
> >On 12/19/2012 10:32 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
> >>  Lou, it's just a matter of convenience.
> >>
> >> Why should is say:
> >> "customer interface/link between an OE and an OC in the
> >overlay model context supporting both signaling and routing
> >message exchange that is called UNI when only signaling is supported"
> >>
> >> ...when i could simply say: ONI? :)
> >>
> >> BR
> >> Daniele
> >>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
> >>> Sent: mercoled=EC 19 dicembre 2012 16.09
> >>> To: Daniele Ceccarelli
> >>> Cc: CCAMP
> >>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
> >>>
> >>> Daniele,
> >>>   see below.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 12/19/2012 5:56 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
> >>>> Hi Lou,
> >>>>
> >>>> Plese find replies in line.
> >>>>
> >>>> BR
> >>>> Daniele
> >>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
> >>>>> Sent: luned=EC 17 dicembre 2012 20.45
> >>>>> To: Daniele Ceccarelli
> >>>>> Cc: CCAMP
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Daniele,
> >>>>>         Thanks for getting this on-list discussion going.  I have s=
ome
> >>>>> comments and questions:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - So what's a "client layer network" in this context?
> >Perhaps you
> >>>>> mean OC or "(overlay) customer layer"?
> >>>>
> >>>> Yes. The terms client layer and server layer are
> >>> reminescences to be corrected.
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - So what's a "server layer network" in this context?
> >Perhaps you
> >>>>> mean OE or "(overlay) provider layer"?
> >>>>
> >>>> Again correct
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - For OC, I'd thing referring back to a CE in the VPN
> >context, and
> >>>>> likewise to a PE for an OE, is helpful context.
> >>>>
> >>>> In the case of the interface we generally define the ONI as
> >>> an overlay
> >>>> interface that in a particular case is called UNI.
> >>>
> >>> I have no idea what this means.  I suspect it relates to comments
> >>> below, so will discuss there.
> >>>
> >>>> I would
> >>>> apply the same method: those nodes are called Overlay Customer and
> >>>> Overlay Edge and in the particular case of VPNs they are the
> >>> CE and PE
> >>>> respectively. What about that?
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> How about:
> >>>
> >>> An OC is analogous to an L3VPN CE, and an OE is analogous
> >to an L3VPN
> >>> PE (with a provider based VPN).
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - As you mention in the Appendix, (from the OC perspective)
> >>> there is
> >>>>> no difference between a virtual and real node (and
> >>> presumably link as
> >>>>> well).  Given this and your comment in 8, that the ONI
> >can take the
> >>>>> form of a UNI or include both signaling and routing (i.e., a
> >>>>> peer/I-NNI or
> >>>>> E-NNI) what value is there in introducing the ONI term?
> >>> Said another
> >>>>> way, there's no specific term for the interface between a
> >CE and PE
> >>>>> in L3VPNs, so why do we need to introduce one in this context?
> >>>>
> >>>> We gave a name to the UNI, why don't giving to the ONI?
> >>>
> >>> Because redundant/unnecessary terminology only obfuscates.
> >>>
> >>> Why not customer interface/link? This has been sufficient
> >for L3VPNs.
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think this same comment probably holds for the O-NNI
> >>> (e.g., what's
> >>>>> the name of the interface between providers which support L3VPN
> >>>>> handoffs?)...
> >>>>
> >>>> I would suggest giving a name to that interface also in
> >>> order to distinguish between an "internal" and an "external"
> >>> link when multiple overlay provider network domains are present.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> How about inter-provider interface/link? Again, this has been
> >>> sufficient for L3VPNs.
> >>>
> >>> Lou
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Much thanks,
> >>>>> Lou
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 12/17/2012 6:17 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
> >>>>>> Dear CCAMPers,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the
> >>>>> Overlay model framework and related works took place. Some
> >>>>> discussions led to some sort of agreemet among a small group of
> >>>>> people, some others to a set a viable options, some others
> >>> to totally
> >>>>> open issues. I tried to summarize the output of such discussions
> >>>>> below so to progress the discussions into a single thread
> >on the WG
> >>>>> ML.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a
> >>>>> well shaped and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to
> >provide the
> >>>>> basis for starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea
> >(step 1)
> >>>>> instead of starting it from scratch (step 0).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a
> >>>>> proposal of the overlay scenario.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>> Daniele
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> + Disclaimer:
> >>>>>>  1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work
> >>>>> can be extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> + Terminology:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>  1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between
> >>>>> two virtual or real network elements in a client layer
> >network that
> >>>>> is maintained/controlled in and by the server domain
> >control plane
> >>>>> (and as such cannot transport any traffic/data and protected from
> >>>>> being de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the
> >>> data plane
> >>>>> (and then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving
> >>>>> previously advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.
> >>>>>>  2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or
> >>>>> more server network  domain nodes that are collectively
> >represented
> >>>>> to the clients as a single node that exists in the client layer
> >>>>> network and is capable of terminating of access, inter-domain and
> >>>>> virtual links.
> >>>>>>  3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one
> >>>>> or more virtual or real server network domain nodes that
> >>> exist in the
> >>>>> client layer network and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual
> >>>>> links.
> >>>>>>  4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies
> >>>>> provided by each of server network domains, access and
> >inter-domain
> >>>>> links.
> >>>>>>  5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that
> >>>>> link. It can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
> >>>>>>  6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208
> >>>>> teminology  but (i) receiving virtual topology from the
> >>> core network
> >>>>> and requesting the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting the
> >>>>> computation and establishment of a path accordingly to gien
> >>>>> constraints in the core network and receiving the parameters
> >>>>> characterizing such path. (ii) =3D=3D UNI.
> >>>>>>  7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but
> >>>>> able to deal with (i) and (ii) above.
> >>>>>>  8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for
> >>>>> signaling and routing messages exchange between Overlay and  Core
> >>>>> network. Routing information consists on virtual topology
> >>>>> advertisement. When there is no routing adjacency across the
> >>>>> interface it is equivalent to the GMPLS UNI defined in 4208.
> >>>>> Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208.
> >Information  related
> >>>>> to path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected  SRLG,
> >>> path delay
> >>>>> etc, either passed from OE to OC via  signaling after the LSP
> >>>>> establishment in the core network or from OC to OE to be
> >>> used as path
> >>>>> computation constraints, fall  under the definition of
> >>> signaling info
> >>>>> and not routing info).
> >>>>>>  9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the
> >>>>> links between different core networks in the overlay model
> >>>>> environment, i.e. Between border OEs. Same features of the
> >>> ONI apply
> >>>>> to this interface. Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name
> >>> is needed?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> + Statements
> >>>>>>  1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build
> >>>>> an overlay
> >>>>>> topology for the client network domains  2. The overlay
> >>>>> topology is comprised of:
> >>>>>>     a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the
> >>>>> server network domains). They can be PSC or LSC.
> >>>>>>     b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server
> >>>>> network domains)
> >>>>>>     c) virtual topology provided by the server network
> >>>>> domains. Virtual Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) +
> >Connectivity Matrix
> >>>>> (with a set of parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments,
> >delay etc
> >>>>> for each entry) describing connectivity between access links and
> >>>>> virtual links.
> >>>>>>  3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy
> >>> of overlay
> >>>>>> topologies with overlay/underlay relationships  4. In the
> >>> context of
> >>>>>> overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships
> >>>>> are peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network
> >>>>> integration  5. The overlay model assumes one instance for
> >>> the client
> >>>>> network and a separate instance for the server network and
> >>> in the ONI
> >>>>> case the server network also surreptitiously participates in the
> >>>>> client network by injecting virtual topology information into it.
> >>>>>>  6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over
> >>>>> the ONI (it falls under the UNI case as no routing
> >adjacency is in
> >>>>> place between OC and OE).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> + Open issues/questions
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>  1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about
> >>>>> PCE and PCEP into the overlay framework context?
> >>>>>>  2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
> >>>>>>  3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> + Appendix:
> >>>>>> Some notes on the Virtual Node:
> >>>>>> 1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale
> >>>>> because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs
> >>> have the
> >>>>> same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs
> >>>>>> 2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is
> >>>>> by having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the
> >>>>> middle of the virtual topology
> >>>>>> 3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server
> >>>>> domain switches, because, generally speaking:
> >>>>>>   a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
> >>>>>>   b)Real switches are named from different naming space
> >>>>>>   c)real switches individually may not have sufficient
> >>>>> resources to terminate virtual links (while a group of real
> >>> switches
> >>>>> collectively will have)
> >>>>>>   d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual
> >>>>> node have better scalability qualities
> >>>>>> 4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real
> >>>>> node, you need to keep in mind that real server domain
> >>> switches are,
> >>>>> generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must
> >expose their
> >>>>> connectivity matrices
> >>>>>> 5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that
> >>>>> could potentially go through a real server domain switch, the
> >>>>> latter's connectivity matrix must expose "internal"
> >SRLGs, so that
> >>>>> the two services traversing the switch will not
> >simultaneously fail
> >>>>> if a single internal element shared by the services fails
> >>>>>> 6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be
> >>>>> addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies
> >with blocking
> >>>>> switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no
> >>> difference
> >>>>> between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
> >>>>>> 7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected
> >>>>> to server network domain must be upgraded so that they could
> >>>>> understand the connectivity matrices advertised by the
> >border nodes
> >>>>> describing connectivity constraints between access links
> >>> and virtual
> >>>>> links they terminate.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> >>>>>> DANIELE CECCARELLI
> >>>>>> System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Via E.Melen, 77
> >>>>>> Genova, Italy
> >>>>>> Phone +390106002512
> >>>>>> Mobile +393346725750
> >>>>>> daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
> >>>>>> www.ericsson.com
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive
> >>>>> email on
> >>>>>> the basis of the term set out at
> >www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> CCAMP mailing list
> >>>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
> >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >


_______________________________________________
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From daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com  Thu Dec 20 00:57:08 2012
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From: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, "draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3@tools.ietf.org>, CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-04.txt
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Hi Lou,

Below you can find the last call comments pasted with replies in line.

All nits, typos and suggested text changes without any comment in line have=
 been accepted/modified accordingly.

BR
Daniele & Sergio


>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org]=20
>On Behalf
>Of Lou Berger
>> Sent: mercoled=EC 26 ottobre 2011 0.37
>> To: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3@tools.ietf.org
>> Cc: CCAMP
>> Subject: [CCAMP] some comments on gmpls-ospf-g709v3-00
>...
>> 2) SCSI TLV formatting
>>
>> The field descriptions are missing format related conformance
>> (RFC2119) language.
>>

Done

>>
>> 3) SCSI TLV procedures
>>
>> You have defined the formats of the TLVs in Section 4.1, but not=20
>> explicitly how they are to be used. Some RFC2119 language really is=20
>> needed to cover how the SCSI is to be encoded and parsed. At a=20
>> minimum, any TLV inclusion, ordering requirements, and exception=20
>> handling should be covered. (For example, your examples=20
>always show a=20
>> particular ordering relative to Stage#, is this required,=20
>recommended,=20
>> or just a possibility. You have some informative language, which is=20
>> great, but you also need some RFC2119 language.)

Done

>...
>> 6) Finally, some nits:
>> s/[OTN-INFO], the OSPF-TE/[OTN-INFO], OSPF-TE s/list of them/list
>s/Priority :8 bits/Priority (8 bits):
>> s/infer/imply
>>
>>=20
>
>- You have some very nice examples, but are inconsistent in=20
>filling in field values.  I think all values that can possibly=20
>be filled in in the examples should be.
>

All the relevant ones have been introduces. Some non relevant fields have b=
een left with just the field name in. E.g. In an example showing priorities=
 management the T, S and TSG fields have not been filled with 1 or 0 but ju=
st T,S and TSG have been left to make the reading easier.

>Detailed editorial and technical comments:
>
>- Please verify that abbreviations are defined before being used .
>There are a number of these.

Done

>
>- Please use a consistent decimal representation (sometimes=20
>commas are used other times periods)
>
>- the references [G709-v1] and [G709-v3] each actually refer=20
>to multiple documents, each documented needs to have it's own=20
>(correct) reference, i.g., [G709-v1] and [G709-v1a1]. The=20
>document text will need to be revisited to ensure the proper=20
>reference is made.

Updated accordingly with latest proposal: RFC4328 when referencing "old G.7=
09" and G709-2012 when referncing the last one (v4).

>
>-
>http://tools.ietf.org/idnits?url=3Dhttp://tools.ietf.org/id/draft
-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-03.txt
>shows there are unresolved nits that need to resolved .  I'm=20
>using line numbers from this url in my subsequent comments.
>
>- Line 24: drop "The recent revision of "
>
>- Line 138: "ODUk an higher order" --> "ODUk to indicate a=20
>higher order"
>
>- Line 145: "iterated" --> "repeated"
>
>- Line 181/2: Drop "Some of the prominent representations are=20
>captured below."
>
>- Line 202: perhaps "termed" --> "referred to"?
>
>- Line 226: I'd suggest 110, but don't feel too strongly about it.
>
>- Line 228: Start with "When supporting the extensions defined=20
>in this document, the"
>
>- Lines 236-261: Replace all lines with "MUST be interpreted=20
>as defined in [RFC4203]".  No need to repeat what's already specified.
>
>- Lines 265-272: Additional information is fine, but don't=20
>repeat 4203 unless directly quoting.
>
>- Line 300: Need to specify what "differing characteristics"=20
>means using
>RFC2119 language.
>
>- Section 4.1.
>
>I think the combine presentation of the two types is=20
>confusing.  I suggest adding a section 4.1.1 right after line=20
>311 covering "Switch Capability Specific Information for fixed=20
>containers" followed by a section 4.1.2 covering "Switch=20
>Capability Specific Information for flexible containers". =20
>Field definitions will need to be reorganized as appropriate.

Rearranged as follows:
4.1.  Switch Capability Specific Information . . . . . . . . . .  7  8
       4.1.1.  Switch Capability Specific Information for fixed
               containers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  9
       4.1.2.  Switch Capability Specific Information for
               variable containers  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10
       4.1.3.  Switch Capability Specific Information - Field
               values and explanation . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12



>
>Also the common format and rules related to the OTN-TDM SCSI=20
>container should be defined before going into the type=20
>specific definitions. (at the 4.1) level.
>
>- Lines 405-417: How about replace all with:
>  "Signal Type: Indicates the ODU type being advertised.=20
>Values are defined in [OTN-SIG]"
>
>- Line 428: after "level" suggest adding something like "below=20
>the indicated signal type"
>
>- Line 442: "00" --> "0"
>
>- Lines 447, 454, 463, 464: I find the "don't care" case a bit=20
>odd.  How about make 0 "unused" or "ignored" and use it instead of 4?
>
>- Lines 472/3: Replace "stage of the muxing hierarchy" --> "of=20
>the indicated Number of stages"
>
>- Line 476: "then no Stage fields MUST be included." --> "then=20
>the Stage and Padding fields MUST be omitted."
>
>- Lines 484/5: "Only Unreserved/MAX LSP BW fields for=20
>supported" --> "Unreserved/MAX LSP BW fields for each identified"
>
>- Line 486: After "to 7)" add ", and Unreserved/MAX LSP BW=20
>fields for other priority values MUST be omitted."
>
>- Line 497: Drop "Only", "for supported" --> "for each supported"
>
>- As mentioned above need processing rules/procedures, for=20
>multiple ISCDs, SCSI information, e.g., use and ordering of=20
>multiple containers.
>
>- Line 503: "infer" -> "imply"
>
>- Fill in all example field values
>
>- Section 7 -- update to reference 4203 and 5920.  Discuss=20
>implications / added risk of additional information provided=20
>in this document.
Reference to 4203 added and this piece of text added at the end:

   For security threats, defensive techniques, monitoring/detection/
   reporting of security attacks and requirements please refer to
   [RFC5920] .

>
>Section 8.  This section needs some work.  (I'm assuming your=20
>familiar with rfc5226).

What about:

8.  IANA Considerations

   Upon approval of this document, IANA will make the assignment of a
   new registry, the "OTN-TDM Container Registry" under a new GMPLS
   Routing Parameters" with two new types (1 and 2)


   Switching Type           Description                Reference
   ----------------------  --------------------------  ----------
   110 (suggested)          OTN-TDM capable (OTN-TDM)  [This.I-D]

   This document defines the following sub-TLVs of the ISCD TLV:

   Value  Sub-TLV
   -----  -------------------------------------------------
     1      Unreserved Bandwidth for fixed containers
     2      Unreserved/MAX LSP bandwidth for flexible containers

>
>- Switching types are assigned in
>http://www.iana.org/assignments/gmpls-sig-parameters/gmpls-sig-
>parameters.xml#gmpls-sig-parameters-3
> (Again I suggest 110, not 101, but this isn't a big deal)
>
>- I think you are actually asking for IANA to establish a new registry.
> Perhaps something like "OTN-TDM Container Registry" under a=20
>new "GMPLS Routing Parameters" with two new types.
>
>That's it on this document.
>
>Lou
>=20

>-----Original Message-----
>From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org]=20
>On Behalf Of Lou Berger
>Sent: gioved=EC 20 dicembre 2012 0.28
>To: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3@tools.ietf.org; CCAMP
>Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action:=20
>draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-04.txt
>
>Authors?
>
>On 12/4/2012 4:34 PM, Lou Berger wrote:
>> Authors,
>> 	Please review any changes and how LC comments are addressed.
>>=20
>> Thank you,
>> Lou
>>=20
>> On 11/28/2012 2:37 AM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>>>
>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line=20
>Internet-Drafts directories.
>>>  This draft is a work item of the Common Control and=20
>Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.
>>>
>>> 	Title           : Traffic Engineering Extensions to=20
>OSPF for Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) Control of Evolving G.709=20
>OTN Networks
>>> 	Author(s)       : Daniele Ceccarelli
>>>                           Diego Caviglia
>>>                           Fatai Zhang
>>>                           Dan Li
>>>                           Sergio Belotti
>>>                           Pietro Vittorio Grandi
>>>                           Rajan Rao
>>>                           Khuzema Pithewan
>>>                           John E Drake
>>> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-04.txt
>>> 	Pages           : 33
>>> 	Date            : 2012-11-27
>>>
>>> Abstract:
>>>    ITU-T Recommendation G.709 [G.709-2012] has introduced=20
>new fixed and
>>>    flexible Optical Data Unit (ODU) containers, enabling optimized
>>>    support for an increasingly abundant service mix.
>>>
>>>    This document describes Open Shortest Path First - Traffic
>>>    Engineering (OSPF-TE) routing protocol extensions to support
>>>    Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) control of all currently defined ODU
>>>    containers, in support of both sub-lambda and lambda=20
>level routing
>>>    granularity.
>>>
>>>
>>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3
>>>
>>> There's also a htmlized version available at:
>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-04
>>>
>>> A diff from the previous version is available at:
>>>=20
>http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-0
>>> 4
>>>
>>>
>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>_______________________________________________
>CCAMP mailing list
>CCAMP@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>=

From daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com  Thu Dec 20 01:05:41 2012
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From: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, "ccamp@ietf.org" <ccamp@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model@tools.ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model-05.txt
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model-05.txt
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Hi Lou,

Below you can find the last call comments pasted with replies in line.

All nits, typos and suggested text changes without any comment in line have=
 been accepted/modified accordingly.

BR
Daniele & Sergio


>-----Original Message-----
>From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org]=20
>On Behalf Of Lou Berger
>Sent: sabato 20 ottobre 2012 0.06
>To: CCAMP; draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model@tools.ietf.org
>Subject: [CCAMP] WG Last Call comments on=20
>draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model-04
>
>
>Authors,
>	I have the following LC comments:
>
>General comments:
>
>- There's a lot of text/concepts that is common to both this=20
>document and the framework document.  The document certainly=20
>adds additional useful detail, but I'm not sure it's really=20
>provides an information model of any kind.  Optimally, I think=20
>this document should be merged with the framework document.  I=20
>think this would yield a more comprehensive and understandable=20
>result.  I really don't see this as a lot of work/time,=20
>although it clearly would be a major change
>
>If this is considered to be to onerous a proposal, then this=20
>document should at least be updated to (a) reduce duplication=20
>text with the framework document and (b) remove any references=20
>to "model" and just talk about providing "Additional Information"

All duplicated text have been removed from this ID and kept into the FWK (m=
ostly End of section 1, whole sections 2 and 3).

Title changed into:
Evaluation of existing GMPLS encoding against G.709v3 Optical Transport Net=
works (OTN)

And abstract into:
[...]
   This document provides an evaluation of existing Generalized
   Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) routing and signaling methods
   against the G.709-2012 OTN networks.

>
>- The document should be reviewed by the authors to ensure it=20
>is consistent with the latest solutions documents and WG=20
>discussions.  For example, there are multiple references to=20
>the contentious and much discussed "penultimate hop" case=20
>without any references to the agreed upon approach.

Done. Please see section 3.2

>
>Editorial comments:
>
>- Please verify that abbreviations are defined before being used .
>There are a number of these.

Done
>
>- Please use a consistent decimal representation (sometimes=20
>commas are used other times periods)
>
>- the references [G709-v1] and [G709-v3] each actually refer=20
>to multiple documents, each documented needs to have it's own=20
>(correct) reference, i.g., [G709-v1] and [G709-v1a1]. The=20
>document text will need to be revisited to ensure the proper=20
>reference is made.

RFC4328 for older versions of G709 and G709-2012 for the latest one (v4)

>
>-
>http://tools.ietf.org/idnits?url=3Dhttp://tools.ietf.org/id/draft
-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model-04.txt
>shows there are unresolved nits that need to resolved .  I'm=20
>using line numbers from this url in my subsequent comments.
>
>Line 18: Suggest dropping "The recent revision of"
>
>Line 20/21: Suggest dropping the marketing phrase "enabling=20
>optimized support for an increasingly abundant service mix."
>
>Lines 93-127 (through "of"): I don't see how this text=20
>provides any value.  I suggest dropping it, or at most just=20
>reference the FWK document.
>
>Lines 319-341: Instances of "G.709" should be "[G.709-V3]"
>
>Line 538: Add "(Source: Table 7-10 [G.709-V3])"
>
>Lines 579/80: Does "foundation G.709" mean "[G.709-V1]" If not=20
>what does it mean?
>
>Line 591: Replace/add "[RFC4203]" after "OSPF-TE"
>
>Lines 617-620: While one could certainly implement 4202/3 this=20
>way, it certainly is not required.  I think these lines should=20
>be dropped.
>
>Lines 626-630:  These sentences are simply wrong.  What would=20
>be correct is to say something like:
>
>"Per [RFC2328], OSPF messages are directly encapsulated in IP=20
>datagrams and depend on IP fragmentation when transmitting=20
>packets larger than the network MTU.  [RFC2328] recommends=20
>that "IP fragmentation should be avoided whenever possible."=20
>This recommendation further constraints solutions as OSPF does=20
>not support any generic mechanism to fragment OSPF LSAs."
>
>Line 632, probably should add a reference to [RFC4201].
>
>Lines 733, 735, 764: figure numbers are wrong "6"->"9", "7"->"10"
>
>Lines 734/5: "are supposed to" --> "only"
>
>Line 735: "The figure 6 addresses" --> "Figure 9 represents"
>
>Line 738: Assuming I understand your intent, replace "Being D=20
>a single stage capable node" --> "As node D is a single stage=20
>capable node"
>
>Section 5, needs to be updated to reference existing relevant=20
>signaling and routing GMPLS RFCs and identify any additional=20
>information that is being conveyed and additional risks, if any.

New text:
   This document provides an evaluation of OTN requirements against
   actual routing [RFC4202] and [RFC4203] and signaling mechanism
   [RFC3471], [RFC3473] and [RFC4328]in GMPLS.

   New types of information to be conveyed regard OTN containers and
   hierarchies and from a security standpoint this memo does not
   introduce further risks with respect to the information that can be
   currently conveyed via GMPLS protocols.  For a general discussion on
   MPLS and GMPLS-related security issues, see the MPLS/GMPLS security
   framework [RFC5920].


>
>That's it on this document.
>
>Lou=20

>-----Original Message-----
>From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org]=20
>On Behalf Of Lou Berger
>Sent: gioved=EC 20 dicembre 2012 0.27
>To: ccamp@ietf.org; draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model@tools.ietf.org
>Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action:=20
>draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model-05.txt
>
>Authors?
>
>On 12/4/2012 3:31 PM, Lou Berger wrote:
>> Authors,
>> 	Please review any changes and how LC comments are addressed.
>>=20
>> Thank you,
>> Lou
>>=20
>> On 11/28/2012 2:36 AM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>>>
>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line=20
>Internet-Drafts directories.
>>>  This draft is a work item of the Common Control and=20
>Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.
>>>
>>> 	Title           : Evaluation of existing GMPLS encoding=20
>against G.709v3 Optical Transport Networks (OTN)
>>> 	Author(s)       : Sergio Belotti
>>>                           Pietro Vittorio Grandi
>>>                           Daniele Ceccarelli
>>>                           Diego Caviglia
>>>                           Fatai Zhang
>>>                           Dan Li
>>> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model-05.txt
>>> 	Pages           : 22
>>> 	Date            : 2012-11-27
>>>
>>> Abstract:
>>>    The recent revision of ITU-T recommendation G.709=20
>[G.709-2012] has
>>>    introduced new fixed and flexible Optical Data Unit=20
>(ODU) containers
>>>    in Optical Transport Networks (OTNs), enabling optimized=20
>support for
>>>    an increasingly abundant service mix.
>>>
>>>    This document provides an evaluation of existing Generalized
>>>    Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) routing and=20
>signaling methods
>>>    against the G.709-2012 OTN networks.
>>>
>>>
>>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>>>=20
>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model
>>>
>>> There's also a htmlized version available at:
>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model-05
>>>
>>> A diff from the previous version is available at:
>>>=20
>http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model
>>> -05
>>>
>>>
>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>_______________________________________________
>CCAMP mailing list
>CCAMP@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>=

From daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com  Thu Dec 20 01:41:02 2012
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From: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
To: Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>, Gert Grammel <ggrammel@juniper.net>, CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Hi Igor,

Unfortunately your drawing is totally misaligned, is this a correct re-draw=
ing?

OC1------If1:OE1                          OE2:IF4---------OC2
             OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2=20

answer : is neither a), b) nor c)

OC1------If1:OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF4---------OC2
             OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2=20

With respect to Q2:

>Q2: if on the other side we considered the virtual link being=20
>B) (i.e. From IF1 to IF4 hence with an "implicit" node=20
>connectivity matrix) which would be the drawbacks of this solution?
>
>IB>>  VL cannot start on a customer facing interface. OE is a=20
>(blocking)=20
>IB>> switch between access and virtual TE links

I still believe the tranffic matrix can be implicitely advertised as part o=
f the VL. Consider this:

OC3------If5:OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL1 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF6---------OC4
OC1------If1:OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL2 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF4---------OC2
             OE1:If2-------------------If3:OE2=20

OE1 is a blocking node because only allows OC3 to be connected to VL1 and O=
C1 to VL2. But if you just advertise VL1 to OC3 (not VL2) and VL2 to OC1 (n=
ot VL1) aren't you implicitely hiding the blocking nature of OE1?

Cheers,
Daniele


>-----Original Message-----
>From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com]=20
>Sent: mercoled=EC 19 dicembre 2012 18.03
>To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Gert Grammel; CCAMP
>Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>Daniele,
>Please, see in line.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 9:53 AM
>To: Igor Bryskin; Gert Grammel; CCAMP
>Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>Hi Igor,
>
>Just focusing on the virtual links for a while; i must admit=20
>that i'm a bit confused by your last mail. Let's pick the=20
>figure i sent.
>
>>OC1                               OC2
>>  \    +---+IF2       IF3+---+    /
>>   \IF1|OE1|-------------|OE2|IF4/
>>       +---+             +---+
>>
>>A) Virtual link is from OC1 to OC2
>>B) Virtual link is from IF1 to IF4
>>C) Virtual link is from IF2 to IF3
>
>IB>> My understanding of your picture is this:
>
>OC1------If1:OE1                                    =20
>OE2:IF4---------OC2
>                       OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2 My=20
>answer : is neither a), b) nor c)
>
>OC1------If1:OE1  =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF4--------=
-OC2
>                       OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2
>
>VL is between OE1 and OE 2, potential server trail is between=20
>IF2 and IF3
>
>According to the definition given:
>"A virtual link is a potential path between two virtual or=20
>real network elements in a client layer"=20
>I would say that a virtual link is from OC1 to OC2, which is A).
>
>IB>> See above
>
>Then, from your latest definition:
>" a potential path between two virtual or real server domain=20
>network elements"
>I would say that a virtual link can be either B) or C).
>IB>> See above
>
>Then you speak about access links, which implies that the link=20
>between OC1 and OE1 has its own dignity and hence that the=20
>virtual link is C) in picture above.=20
>
>IB>> Links OC1- OE1 and OC2-OE2 are access links
>
>Now i have 2 questions:
>
>Q1: can you confirm that a virtual link is C)? Then we need to=20
>update the definition of a virtual link removing any=20
>misleading reference to client/server domain Network elements=20
>and speak about OCs and OEs. =20
>
>Q2: if on the other side we considered the virtual link being=20
>B) (i.e. From IF1 to IF4 hence with an "implicit" node=20
>connectivity matrix) which would be the drawbacks of this solution?
>
>IB>>  VL cannot start on a customer facing interface. OE is a=20
>(blocking)=20
>IB>> switch between access and virtual TE links
>
>
>Thanks
>Daniele
>
>
>
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com]
>>Sent: luned=EC 17 dicembre 2012 21.12
>>To: Gert Grammel; Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP
>>Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>
>>Gert,
>>
>>Please, see in line. I disagree with pretty much everything you say.=20
>>Igor
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org]=20
>On Behalf=20
>>Of Gert Grammel
>>Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 8:27 AM
>>To: Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP
>>Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>
>>Daniele,
>>
>>Thank you for summarizing the current state of discussion. To move=20
>>forward and to encourage comments, let me point to some of the issues=20
>>that are debated:
>>
>>1) Virtual Link: in the terminology statement a virtual link seems to=20
>>connect two client elements.
>>IB>> The definition says:
>>"1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between two=20
>>virtual or real network elements in a client layer", what makes you=20
>>think that anyone ever applied that this is a path between client=20
>>devices? The definition should say, though: " a potential=20
>path between=20
>>two virtual or real server domain network elements"
>>
>> However later on the 3) virtual topology is composed of access links=20
>>and virtual links. Hence. Virtual links connect server nodes, not=20
>>client nodes.
>>IB>> see above
>>
>> By doing so, segments (AL and VL) are created.
>>
>>2) The scalability consideration in the appendix for VL is based on=20
>>terminology 1) rather than on virtual topology
>>
>>IB>> I completely disagree with this, see below
>>
>>3). This way it doesn't describe then the  scalability of a virtual=20
>>topology (which doesn't necessitate a full mesh) but rather that of a=20
>>virtual node (which implies a full connectivity matrix).
>>
>>To sum up:
>>1) we have to come up with a crisp definition of a VL in a virtual=20
>>topology that is different from a terminology 1) VL.
>>Here is a gap
>>2) A Model based on a vitual node or 'terminology 1) links'=20
>>create n**2 problems on client side and does not scale.
>>3) 'VNT'-virtual-links 3) and access links are supposed to=20
>address the=20
>>scaling problem. We need to clean up our terminology.=20
>Otherwise we end=20
>>up associating limitations of terminology 1) links with=20
>VNT-links that=20
>>address those limitations.
>>
>>IB>> It seems to me that you completely misunderstand current=20
>>IB>> definitions
>>
>>Now looking at the appendix it sadly reflects the terminology=20
>confusion=20
>>and jumps to assessment and conclusions. That's unfortunate:
>>
>>The first line says:
>>Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>>1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly,
>>--> is it now about virtual nodes or virtual links or VNT links?
>>IB>> Virtual Link Model includes access, inter-domain and
>>virtual links
>>IB>> but does not include virtual nodes
>>
>>2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is by=20
>>having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the middle=20
>>of the virtual topology
>>--> that's why access links are so useful. They end at server nodes=20
>>--> which are connected via virtual links
>>
>>IB>> A combination of access and virtual links alone *does not
>>address N**2 problem*.
>>Consider 1000 client devices connected via 1000 access links to the=20
>>network that need to be fully interconnected. You will need=20
>1000000 VLs=20
>>to do so. You need to have one or more Virtual Nodes in the middle of=20
>>the virtual topology to solve this issue. Overlay Network Topology is=20
>>no different from real network topology, and real network=20
>topologies do=20
>>include Ps, not just PEs
>>=20
>>3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain=20
>>switches, because, generally speaking:
>>--> in case of VNT-VLs no intermediate nodes are necessarily required
>>IB>> See  above, IMO you are dead wrong
>>
>>4.  --> No need to comment, this way doesn't scale anyway.
>>IB>> ONTs with virtual nodes scale no worse that real network
>>topologies
>>
>>5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could=20
>>potentially go through a real server domain switch, the latter's=20
>>connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so that the two=20
>>services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail=20
>if a single=20
>>internal element shared by the services fails
>>--> who is 'you' that computes? A client selects among VNT
>>virtual links based on exposed SRLGs, VLs are computed by the server=20
>>with full knowledge of constraints. So what does an 'internal' SRLG=20
>>mean to a server path computation?
>>
>>IB>> You is the client path computer. If the two paths are
>>going through
>>IB>> the same node, they may overlap inside the node, which=20
>means they=20
>>IB>> can be brought down by a single network failure. That's why you=20
>>IB>> need to expose  node's internal SRLGs or try to find node
>>disjoint
>>IB>> paths (which may not be available)
>>
>>6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be=20
>>addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking=20
>>switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no difference=20
>>between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
>>--> I suggest to model a complete network of say 5 nodes in a
>>single VN and compare it with the model of a single real node.
>>
>>IB>> Please, do that
>>
>>--> The assessments made have used a terminology definition
>>that doesn't really capture the case made for VNT-VLs.
>>That's why I would have had appreciated to split definitions and work=20
>>items agreed among a group from individual assessments in separate=20
>>emails.
>>Nevertheless I consider the first part of your email (all except the
>>appendix) as a good starting point for further clarification.
>>
>>Gert
>>________________________________________
>>From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Daniele Ceccarelli
>>Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 12:17:08 PM
>>To: CCAMP
>>Subject: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>
>>Dear CCAMPers,
>>
>>In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the Overlay model=20
>>framework and related works took place. Some discussions led to some=20
>>sort of agreemet among a small group of people, some others=20
>to a set a=20
>>viable options, some others to totally open issues. I tried to=20
>>summarize the output of such discussions below so to progress the=20
>>discussions into a single thread on the WG ML.
>>
>>Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a well shaped=20
>>and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to provide the basis for=20
>>starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea (step 1) instead of=20
>>starting it from scratch (step 0).
>>
>>In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a proposal of the=20
>>overlay scenario.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Daniele
>>
>>+ Disclaimer:
>> 1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work can be=20
>>extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.
>>
>>+ Terminology:
>>
>> 1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between two=20
>>virtual or real network elements in a client layer network  that is=20
>>maintained/controlled in and by the server domain control=20
>plane (and as=20
>>such cannot transport any traffic/data and protected from being
>>de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the data plane (and=20
>>then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving previously=20
>>advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.
>> 2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or=20
>more server=20
>>network  domain nodes that are collectively represented to=20
>the clients=20
>>as a single node that exists in the client layer network and=20
>is capable=20
>>of terminating of access, inter-domain and virtual links.
>> 3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one or more=20
>>virtual or real server network domain nodes that exist in the client=20
>>layer network and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual links.
>> 4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies=20
>provided by=20
>>each of server network domains, access and inter-domain links.
>> 5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that link. It=20
>>can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
>> 6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208=20
>teminology=20
>>but (i) receiving virtual topology from the core network and=20
>requesting=20
>>the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting the computation and=20
>>establishment of a path accordingly to gien constraints in the core=20
>>network and receiving the parameters characterizing such=20
>path. (ii) =3D=3D=20
>>UNI.
>> 7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but able to=20
>>deal with (i) and (ii) above.
>> 8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for signaling=20
>>and routing messages exchange between Overlay and Core=20
>network. Routing=20
>>information consists on virtual topology advertisement. When there is=20
>>no routing adjacency across the interface it is equivalent to=20
>the GMPLS=20
>>UNI defined in 4208.
>>Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information related to=20
>>path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected SRLG, path=20
>delay etc,=20
>>either passed from OE to OC via signaling after the LSP establishment=20
>>in the core network or from OC to OE to be used as path computation=20
>>constraints, fall under the definition of signaling info and not=20
>>routing info).
>> 9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the links=20
>>between different core networks in the overlay model environment, i.e.
>>Between border OEs. Same features of the ONI apply to this interface.=20
>>Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name is needed?
>>
>>+ Statements
>> 1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build an overlay=20
>>topology for the client network domains  2. The overlay topology is=20
>>comprised of:
>>    a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the=20
>server network=20
>>domains). They can be PSC or LSC.
>>    b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server network
>>domains)
>>    c) virtual topology provided by the server network=20
>domains. Virtual=20
>>Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) + Connectivity Matrix (with a set of=20
>>parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments, delay etc for each entry)=20
>>describing connectivity between access links and virtual links.
>> 3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy  of overlay=20
>>topologies with overlay/underlay relationships  4. In the context of=20
>>overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships are=20
>>peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network integration  5.
>>The overlay model assumes one instance for the client network and a=20
>>separate instance for the server network and in the ONI case=20
>the server=20
>>network also surreptitiously participates in the client network by=20
>>injecting virtual topology information into it.
>> 6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over=20
>the ONI (it=20
>>falls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency is in place=20
>between OC=20
>>and OE).
>>
>>+ Open issues/questions
>>
>> 1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about PCE=20
>and PCEP=20
>>into the overlay framework context?
>> 2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
>> 3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?
>>
>>+ Appendix:
>>Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>>1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale=20
>>because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs have the=20
>>same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs
>>2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is by=20
>>having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the middle=20
>>of the virtual topology
>>3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain=20
>>switches, because, generally speaking:
>>  a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
>>  b)Real switches are named from different naming space
>>  c)real switches individually may not have sufficient resources to=20
>>terminate virtual links (while a group of real switches collectively=20
>>will have)
>>  d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual node have=20
>>better scalability qualities
>>4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real node,=20
>>you need to keep in mind that real server domain switches are,=20
>>generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must expose their=20
>>connectivity matrices
>>5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could=20
>>potentially go through a real server domain switch, the latter's=20
>>connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so that the two=20
>>services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail=20
>if a single=20
>>internal element shared by the services fails
>>6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be=20
>>addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking=20
>>switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no difference=20
>>between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
>>7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected to=20
>>server network domain must be upgraded so that they could understand=20
>>the connectivity matrices advertised by the border nodes describing=20
>>connectivity constraints between access links and virtual links they=20
>>terminate.
>>
>>
>>
>>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>DANIELE CECCARELLI
>>System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro
>>
>>Via E.Melen, 77
>>Genova, Italy
>>Phone +390106002512
>>Mobile +393346725750
>>daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>>www.ericsson.com
>>
>>This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive email on=20
>>the basis of the term set out at www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>CCAMP mailing list
>>CCAMP@ietf.org
>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>
>=

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From: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
To: Fatai Zhang <zhangfatai@huawei.com>, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, "Igor Bryskin" <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>, "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)" <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 10:22:46 +0000
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Fatai/Authors,
	Thank you for the mail, and sorry about my delayed response.  BTW
please feel free to continue discussing the remaining open issues on the
list and reaching closure on the list (on specific text/resolutions)
prior to publishing the next rev.

Please see below for inline responses.

On 12/7/2012 4:53 AM, Fatai Zhang wrote:
> Hi Lou,
> 
> Please see how the LC comments addressed below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Best Regards
> 
> Fatai
> 
> 
> -----ÓÊ¼þÔ­¼þ-----
> ·¢¼þÈË: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] ´ú±í Lou Berger
> ·¢ËÍÊ±¼ä: 2012Äê10ÔÂ22ÈÕ 10:01
> ÊÕ¼þÈË: CCAMP; draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709v3@tools.ietf.org
> Ö÷Ìâ: [CCAMP] WG Last Call comments on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709v3-04
> 
> Authors,
> 	I have the following LC comments:
> 
> General comments:
> 
> - This document also needs some addition work on conformance language.
> I'll try to point out cases in the detailed comments below.
> 
> [Fatai] OK. Checked and refined based on your detailed comments. 
> 

I think this rev is an improvement, but there's still more work needed.
 I have made some specific comments/suggestions below.

> - Section 5 essentially defines a new set of traffic parameters.  Given
> the changes, why not ask for a new C-TYPE and not worry about [RFC4328]
> compatibility/description?
> 
> [Fatai] Accepted to have a new C-TYPE and updated the text accordingly. 
> 

Okay.

> Detailed editorial and technical comments:
> 
> - Please verify that abbreviations are defined before being used .
> There are a number of these.
> 
> [Fatai] Went through and updated. 

thanks.

> 
> - Please use a consistent decimal representation (sometimes commas are
> used other times periods)
> 
> [Fatai] OK. Commas are used.

great, although a quick skim finds:
s/1,301.683.217/1,301,683.217

> 
> - the references [G709-v1] and [G709-v3] each actually refer to multiple
> documents, each documented needs to have it's own (correct) reference,
> i.g., [G709-v1] and [G709-v1a1]. The document text will need to be
> revisited to ensure the proper reference is made.
> 
> [Fatai] Accepted and used the same approach for framework draft. 

great

> -
> http://tools.ietf.org/idnits?url=http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709v3-04.txt
> shows there are unresolved nits that need to resolved .  

http://tools.ietf.org/idnits?url=http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709v3-05.txt
still shows a warning, notably:

     (Using the creation date from RFC4328, updated by this document, for
     RFC5378 checks: 2005-01-17)

  -- The document seems to lack a disclaimer for pre-RFC5378 work, but may
     have content which was first submitted before 10 November 2008.  If you
     have contacted all the original authors and they are all willing to
grant
     the BCP78 rights to the IETF Trust, then this is fine, and you can
ignore
     this comment.  If not, you may need to add the pre-RFC5378 disclaimer.
     (See the Legal Provisions document at
     http://trustee.ietf.org/license-info for more information.)


> I'm using line
> numbers from this url in my subsequent comments.
> 
[...]

> - Section 3.  Perhaps combine with section 1.
> 
> [Fatai] Accepted and refined.
> 

I don't see where this suggestion was followed, but that's okay, it was
just a suggestion.

[...]
> - Section 5: assuming this is now a new c-type need text for that, as
> well as to formally defined the fields/field sizes.
> 
> [Fatai] Accepted to have a new C-TYPE and updated the text accordingly.

Formal field definitions are missing and need to be added.

Also the draft says:

   Note that the error process on the traffic parameters MUST follow the
   rules defined in Section 6 of [RFC4328].

Given the different fields, shouldn't any OTN-TDM related traffic
parameter processing now be defined in this document?

> 
[...]
> 
> - Lines 320-336,338-346 are essentially repeated in sections 5.1 and
> 5.2, why not move this text into their respective sections?
> 
> [Fatai] Accepted and refined the text.


I don't see where this suggestion was followed. For example:

287  In case of ODUflex(CBR), the Bit_Rate and Tolerance fields MUST be
288  used together to represent the actual bandwidth of ODUflex, where:

and

323  In case of ODUflex(CBR), the information of Bit_Rate and Tolerance in
324  the ODUflex traffic parameters MUST be used to determine the total
325 number of tributary slots N in the HO ODUk link to be reserved. Here:

> 
> - lines 445-468: Why not just carry "n" directly?
> 
> [Fatai] to make it consistent with ODUflex(CBR). 

Given that the recent decision to have an OTN-TDM specific set of
traffic parameters, doesn't it now make sense to just carry N directly?

[...]

> 
> - Line 576: "Padded bits" seems off, how about "Pad bits" or "Padding",

Again, how about "Pad bits" or "Padding"?

> also bits aren't represented in label format (line 494)., also "behind"
> --> "after"
> 
> [Fatai] Accepted and updated.
> 

[...]

> 
> - Lines 658-660.  The normative language in 4328 isn't actually
> presented in the section titled "label distribution procedures" (or
> "rules" as section 4.2 is actually titled), so this paragraph doesn't
> make sense.  I suggest either (a) defining the full set of required
> procedures in this document, or (b) referring to the "required
> processing defined in [RFC4328]" and other rfcs as appropriate.
> 
> [Fatai] Accepted and updated accordingly.
> 
> - Lines 662-667: what about generating upstream, suggested, label set,
> etc.  Perhaps you should rephrase much into more general rules.
> 
> [Fatai] Accepted and updated accordingly.
> 

I think section 6.2 still needs a bit of work.

So are there procedures that an ingress must follow?
For example:
- Setting of fields in the label request object, such as the OTN-TDM
Switching Type defined in [OTN-OSPF].

What about the egress, are there any special procedures?

The final three paragraphs of the section introduce upstream behaviors
*after* you've described the downstream behavior without specifics of
the new upstream behavior. As a general rule and in this case in
particular, I really think it would be better to cover procedures in the
following order
 - Ingress
 - Generic upstream
 - Generic downstream
 - Egress

Also, generic statements should not use conformance language,
particularly when more detailed rules/procedures, which include such
language, follow.

If you'd like we can discuss/review details on the list once you have a
proposed revision. (I see a bunch of more minor comments on this
section, but don't think it makes sense to focus on these until the more
major comments are addressed.)

[...]
> 
> - Lines 682-685: Who is this learning/identification accomplished?
> 
> [Fatai] Accepted and updated.
> 
> - Lines 703-704: If this is the normative section defining requirement
> processing, the procedures need to be spelled out for all required cases.
> 
> [Fatai] Accepted and updated accordingly.
> 
> - Lines 706-707: I think this needs to be rephrased to be clear what
> behavior is required for a node to be conformant with this sentence.
> 
> [Fatai] Accepted and refined accordingly.
> 
> - Lines 711-714: why "SHOULD" vs "MUST"?
> 
> [Fatai] Accepted and updated.
> 

I'll defer responses to the discussion on prior comment.

> - Line 712: By "integrity of the label" do you mean "if the label is
> acceptable"?
> 
> [Fatai] Yes, and updated.
> 
> 
> - Line 725: By "reserved resource" do you mean "indicated resource"?
> 
> [Fatai] Yes, and updated.
> 
> - Line 726: Does "do not match" mean "inconsistent"?
> 
> [Fatai] Yes, and updated.

WRT lines 624-627, I think you still need additional specificity
differentiate upstream/downstream required behavior. Perhaps something
along the lines of:

    When an upstream node receives a Resv message containing an
    LABEL object with an OTN-TDM label, the node MUST verify that
    the label is acceptable. If the label is not acceptable, the
    node MUST generate a ResvErr message with a "Routing
    problem/Unacceptable label value" indication.  Per [RFC3473],
    the generated ResvErr message MAY include an
    ACCEPTABLE_LABEL_SET object.  With the exception of label
    semantics, Downstream node processing a received ResvErr
    messages and of ACCEPTABLE_LABEL_SET objects is not modified
    by this document.

    Similarly, when a downstream node receives a Path message
    containing an UPSTREAM_LABEL object with an OTN-TDM label,
    the node MUST verify that the label is acceptable. If the
    label is not acceptable, the node MUST generate a PathErr
    message with a "Routing problem/Unacceptable label value"
    indication.  Per [RFC3473], the generated ResvErr message MAY
    include an ACCEPTABLE_LABEL_SET object.  With the exception
    of label semantics, Downstream node processing received
    PathErr messages and of ACCEPTABLE_LABEL_SET objects is not
    modified by this document.

    A received label SHALL be considered unacceptable when one of
    the following cases occurs:

    - The received label doesn't conform with local policy.

    ...

> 
> - Line 730, Drop "As".
> 
> [Fatai] Accepted and updated.
> 
> - Section 6.4: Missing conformance language.
> 
> [Fatai] Went through and updated.

New line 660:   The procedures are similar to section 6 of [RFC6344].

Hereto,  If this is the normative section defining required processing,
the procedures need to be spelled out for all required cases or refer to
specific (and unmodified) procedures to follow in a reference document.
 So either define the processing or say procures defined in <appropriate
reference> are followed.

> 
> - Lines 758-759: This reads like an informative statement, but includes
> conformance language.  How does a node conform?  I suggest rephrasing to
> be clear.
> 
> [Fatai] Accepted and updated.
> 

I think this section should be revised to ensure that the
responsibilities of each type of processing node (ingress, upstream,
downstream, egress) is clear.

I guess, we'll have a thread on this section too...

[...]

> 
> - Section 9, should also reference 4328 and cover delta in information
> and added risks.
> 
> [Fatai] Accepted and updated.

We'll see if this is enough to keep the security reviewers happy...

> 
> - Section 10: This section needs some work.  (I'm assuming your familiar
> with rfc5226).
> 
> [Fatai] Accepted and updated.
> 

Better, but you should at least refer to the existing registries, which
already includes G-PIDs (see
http://www.iana.org/assignments/gmpls-sig-parameters/gmpls-sig-parameters.xml)

> - Is it time to create a "Signal Type" registry?
> 
> [Fatai] We are not sure, because no "Signal Types" have been registered in the existing RFCs (like RFC3473, RFC4328..).
> 

I think including a request to establish such a registry in this
document would be useful.  Is anyone up to proposing the requisite text?

Thanks,
Lou


> That's it on this document.
> 
> Lou
> -
> 
> On 10/8/2012 4:47 PM, Lou Berger wrote:
>> This mail begins a two week working group last call on:
>>
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-g709-framework-09
>> (Informational)
>>
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model-04
>> (Informational)
>>
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-03
>> (Standards Track)
>>
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709v3-04
>> (Standards Track)
>>
>> This working group last call ends on October 22.  Comments should be
>> sent to the CCAMP mailing list.  Please remember to include the
>> technical basis for any comments.
>>
>> Please note that we're still missing a few IPR statements, and look
>> for these to come in during the LC period.  Any forthcoming publication
>> request will be delayed by late IPR statements/disclosures.
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Lou (and Deborah)
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> 

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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Daniele,

Just my opinion, but I see overlays as the (much) more generic term.  I
think LxVPNs are types of overlays, as are traditional layered networks,
as are the technologies that match/will result from discussions taking
place in the NVO3 context.

Lou

On 12/20/2012 5:22 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
> I prefer using reference points instead of links.
> Access link and inter-domain links means tens of things in different
> contexts, while e.g. UNI means one single thing and clearly
> identifies the context. BTW it's just a preference, I don't mind how
> we'll finally call it.
> 
> There's one thing I would rather like to clarify and it's the
> relationship with VPNs. We have two options:
> 
> 1) Is a VPN a particular case of the overlay model?
> or
> 2) Is the overlay model a particular case of VPN?
> 
> I think this can help a lot with terminology. I've always assumed 1)
> but from what I read I tend to see that 2) has several supporters.
> 

> BR
> Daniele
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Fatai Zhang [mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com] 
>> Sent: gioved¨¬ 20 dicembre 2012 2.44
>> To: Lou Berger; Igor Bryskin; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); 
>> Daniele Ceccarelli
>> Cc: CCAMP
>> Subject: ´ð¸´: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Support.
>>
>> People are more familiar with the existing things like "access 
>> links" and "inter-domain links" (or E-NNI links).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Best Regards
>>
>> Fatai
>>
>> -----ÓÊ¼þÔ­¼þ-----
>> ·¢¼þÈË: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] ´ú±í 
>> Lou Berger
>> ·¢ËÍÊ±¼ä: 2012Äê12ÔÂ20ÈÕ 7:08
>> ÊÕ¼þÈË: Igor Bryskin
>> ³­ËÍ: CCAMP
>> Ö÷Ìâ: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>
>> Igor,
>>
>> You said:
>> IB>> I like "access links" and "inter-domain links" better.
>>
>> This works for me.
>>
>> Lou
>>
>> On 12/19/2012 12:27 PM, Igor Bryskin wrote:
>>> Lou, please see my answers to your questions
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] 
>> On Behalf 
>>> Of Daniele Ceccarelli
>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 5:57 AM
>>> To: Lou Berger
>>> Cc: CCAMP
>>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>>
>>> Hi Lou,
>>>
>>> Plese find replies in line.
>>>
>>> BR
>>> Daniele
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
>>>> Sent: luned¨¬ 17 dicembre 2012 20.45
>>>> To: Daniele Ceccarelli
>>>> Cc: CCAMP
>>>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Daniele,
>>>> 	Thanks for getting this on-list discussion going.  I have some 
>>>> comments and questions:
>>>>
>>>> - So what's a "client layer network" in this context?  Perhaps you 
>>>> mean OC or "(overlay) customer layer"?
>>>
>>> IB>> Client layer is where Overlay Network topology exists. 
>> It includes:
>>> a) access links (connecting OCs to OEs)
>>> b) virtual links (connecting OE / OVNs (Overlay Virtual 
>> Nodes) within 
>>> a given server domain)
>>> c) inter-domain links (connecting OE to OE that belong to 
>> neighboring 
>>> server domains) All three categories exist in the same client layer 
>>> and named from the same naming space
>>>
>>> Yes. The terms client layer and server layer are 
>> reminescences to be corrected.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> - So what's a "server layer network" in this context?  Perhaps you 
>>>> mean OE or "(overlay) provider layer"?
>>>
>>> IB>> It is the layer where the UNT (Underlay Network 
>> Topology) exists 
>>> IB>> (which may be in the same, lower or higher layer 
>> network than of 
>>> IB>> the ONT)
>>>
>>> Again correct
>>>
>>>>
>>>> - For OC, I'd thing referring back to a CE in the VPN context, and 
>>>> likewise to a PE for an OE, is helpful context.
>>> IB>> agree
>>>
>>> In the case of the interface we generally define the ONI as 
>> an overlay interface that in a particular case is called UNI. 
>> I would apply the same method: those nodes are called Overlay 
>> Customer and Overlay Edge and in the particular case of VPNs 
>> they are the CE and PE respectively. What about that?
>>>
>>>>
>>>> - As you mention in the Appendix, (from the OC perspective) 
>> there is 
>>>> no difference between a virtual and real node
>>> IB>> Agree
>>>
>>>  (and presumably link as
>>>> well).  Given this and your comment in 8, that the ONI can take the 
>>>> form of a UNI or include both signaling and routing (i.e., a 
>>>> peer/I-NNI or
>>>> E-NNI) what value is there in introducing the ONI term?  
>> Said another 
>>>> way, there's no specific term for the interface between a CE and PE 
>>>> in L3VPNs, so why do we need to introduce one in this context?
>>>
>>> We gave a name to the UNI, why don't giving to the ONI?
>>>
>>> IB>> As long as it allows for both or either signaling 
>> and/or routing 
>>> IB>> exchanges
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think this same comment probably holds for the O-NNI 
>> (e.g., what's 
>>>> the name of the interface between providers which support L3VPN 
>>>> handoffs?)...
>>>
>>> I would suggest giving a name to that interface also in 
>> order to distinguish between an "internal" and an "external" 
>> link when multiple overlay provider network domains are present.
>>>
>>> IB>> I like "access links" and "inter-domain links" better. 
>> Note also that a "link" and "node" are TE topology concepts 
>> and orthogonal to CP interfaces (which are Signaling/Routing 
>> speakers). If you mean by "internal" and "external" links the 
>> CP connectivity, than I agree with you.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Much thanks,
>>>> Lou
>>>>
>>>> On 12/17/2012 6:17 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
>>>>> Dear CCAMPers,
>>>>>
>>>>> In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the
>>>> Overlay model framework and related works took place. Some 
>>>> discussions led to some sort of agreemet among a small group of 
>>>> people, some others to a set a viable options, some others 
>> to totally 
>>>> open issues. I tried to summarize the output of such discussions 
>>>> below so to progress the discussions into a single thread 
>> on the WG ML.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a
>>>> well shaped and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to provide the 
>>>> basis for starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea (step 1) 
>>>> instead of starting it from scratch (step 0).
>>>>>
>>>>> In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a
>>>> proposal of the overlay scenario.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Daniele
>>>>>
>>>>> + Disclaimer:
>>>>>  1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work
>>>> can be extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.
>>>>>
>>>>> + Terminology:
>>>>>
>>>>>  1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between
>>>> two virtual or real network elements in a client layer 
>> network  that 
>>>> is maintained/controlled in and by the server domain control plane 
>>>> (and as such cannot transport any traffic/data and protected from 
>>>> being
>>>> de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the data 
>> plane (and 
>>>> then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving 
>> previously 
>>>> advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.
>>>>>  2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or
>>>> more server network  domain nodes that are collectively represented 
>>>> to the clients as a single node that exists in the client layer 
>>>> network and is capable of terminating of access, inter-domain and 
>>>> virtual links.
>>>>>  3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one
>>>> or more virtual or real server network domain nodes that 
>> exist in the 
>>>> client layer network and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual 
>>>> links.
>>>>>  4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies
>>>> provided by each of server network domains, access and inter-domain 
>>>> links.
>>>>>  5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that
>>>> link. It can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
>>>>>  6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208
>>>> teminology  but (i) receiving virtual topology from the 
>> core network 
>>>> and requesting the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting the 
>>>> computation and establishment of a path accordingly to gien 
>>>> constraints in the core network and receiving the parameters 
>>>> characterizing such path. (ii) == UNI.
>>>>>  7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but
>>>> able to deal with (i) and (ii) above.
>>>>>  8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for
>>>> signaling and routing messages exchange between Overlay and Core 
>>>> network. Routing information consists on virtual topology 
>>>> advertisement. When there is no routing adjacency across the 
>>>> interface it is equivalent to the GMPLS UNI defined in 4208.
>>>> Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information 
>> related to 
>>>> path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected SRLG, path delay 
>>>> etc, either passed from OE to OC via signaling after the LSP 
>>>> establishment in the core network or from OC to OE to be 
>> used as path 
>>>> computation constraints, fall under the definition of 
>> signaling info 
>>>> and not routing info).
>>>>>  9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the
>>>> links between different core networks in the overlay model 
>>>> environment, i.e. Between border OEs. Same features of the 
>> ONI apply 
>>>> to this interface. Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name 
>> is needed?
>>>>>
>>>>> + Statements
>>>>>  1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build
>>>> an overlay
>>>>> topology for the client network domains  2. The overlay
>>>> topology is comprised of:
>>>>>     a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the
>>>> server network domains). They can be PSC or LSC.
>>>>>     b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server
>>>> network domains)   
>>>>>     c) virtual topology provided by the server network
>>>> domains. Virtual Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) + Connectivity Matrix 
>>>> (with a set of parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments, delay etc 
>>>> for each entry) describing connectivity between access links and 
>>>> virtual links.
>>>>>  3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy  
>> of overlay 
>>>>> topologies with overlay/underlay relationships  4. In the 
>> context of 
>>>>> overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships
>>>> are peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network 
>>>> integration 5. The overlay model assumes one instance for 
>> the client 
>>>> network and a separate instance for the server network and 
>> in the ONI 
>>>> case the server network also surreptitiously participates in the 
>>>> client network by injecting virtual topology information into it.
>>>>>  6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over
>>>> the ONI (it falls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency is in 
>>>> place between OC and OE).
>>>>>
>>>>> + Open issues/questions
>>>>>  
>>>>>  1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about
>>>> PCE and PCEP into the overlay framework context?
>>>>>  2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
>>>>>  3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?
>>>>>
>>>>> + Appendix:
>>>>> Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>>>>> 1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale 
>>>> because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs 
>> have the 
>>>> same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs
>>>>> 2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is 
>>>> by having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the 
>>>> middle of the virtual topology
>>>>> 3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server 
>>>> domain switches, because, generally speaking:
>>>>>   a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
>>>>>   b)Real switches are named from different naming space
>>>>>   c)real switches individually may not have sufficient
>>>> resources to terminate virtual links (while a group of real 
>> switches 
>>>> collectively will have)
>>>>>   d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual
>>>> node have better scalability qualities
>>>>> 4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real 
>>>> node, you need to keep in mind that real server domain 
>> switches are, 
>>>> generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must expose their 
>>>> connectivity matrices
>>>>> 5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that 
>>>> could potentially go through a real server domain switch, the 
>>>> latter's connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so that 
>>>> the two services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail 
>>>> if a single internal element shared by the services fails
>>>>> 6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be 
>>>> addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking 
>>>> switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no 
>> difference 
>>>> between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
>>>>> 7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected 
>>>> to server network domain must be upgraded so that they could 
>>>> understand the connectivity matrices advertised by the border nodes 
>>>> describing connectivity constraints between access links 
>> and virtual 
>>>> links they terminate.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  
>>>>> ===================================
>>>>> DANIELE CECCARELLI
>>>>> System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro
>>>>>
>>>>> Via E.Melen, 77
>>>>> Genova, Italy
>>>>> Phone +390106002512
>>>>> Mobile +393346725750
>>>>> daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>>>>> www.ericsson.com
>>>>>
>>>>> This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive
>>>> email on
>>>>> the basis of the term set out at www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>
> 

From lberger@labn.net  Thu Dec 20 07:07:51 2012
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Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 10:07:27 -0500
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Cc: "ccamp@ietf.org" <ccamp@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model-05.txt
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Daniele / Authors,
	Thank you for the response.  Please see below for my responses.



On 12/20/2012 4:05 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
> Hi Lou,
> 
> Below you can find the last call comments pasted with replies in line.
> 
> All nits, typos and suggested text changes without any comment in line have been accepted/modified accordingly.
> 
> BR
> Daniele & Sergio
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] 
>> On Behalf Of Lou Berger
>> Sent: sabato 20 ottobre 2012 0.06
>> To: CCAMP; draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model@tools.ietf.org
>> Subject: [CCAMP] WG Last Call comments on 
>> draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model-04
>>
>>
>> Authors,
>> 	I have the following LC comments:
>>
>> General comments:
>>
>> - There's a lot of text/concepts that is common to both this 
>> document and the framework document.  The document certainly 
>> adds additional useful detail, but I'm not sure it's really 
>> provides an information model of any kind.  Optimally, I think 
>> this document should be merged with the framework document.  I 
>> think this would yield a more comprehensive and understandable 
>> result.  I really don't see this as a lot of work/time, 
>> although it clearly would be a major change
>>
>> If this is considered to be to onerous a proposal, then this 
>> document should at least be updated to (a) reduce duplication 
>> text with the framework document and (b) remove any references 
>> to "model" and just talk about providing "Additional Information"
> 
> All duplicated text have been removed from this ID and kept into the FWK (mostly End of section 1, whole sections 2 and 3).
> 

okay.

> Title changed into:
> Evaluation of existing GMPLS encoding against G.709v3 Optical Transport Networks (OTN)
> 
> And abstract into:
> [...]
>    This document provides an evaluation of existing Generalized
>    Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) routing and signaling methods
>    against the G.709-2012 OTN networks.
> 

okay.

>>
>> - The document should be reviewed by the authors to ensure it 
>> is consistent with the latest solutions documents and WG 
>> discussions.  For example, there are multiple references to 
>> the contentious and much discussed "penultimate hop" case 
>> without any references to the agreed upon approach.
> 
> Done. Please see section 3.2
> 

There still a number of instances where  penultimate hop section of
interface is mentioned.  As we discussed on the list, this issue
actually exists for any node that is selecting the egress' nodes
incoming interface.  This can be at the ingress (in setting an ERO), a
transit node (doing ERO expansion), or the penultimate hop.  So there
are some additional fixes needed.

>>
>> Editorial comments:
>>
>> - Please verify that abbreviations are defined before being used .
>> There are a number of these.
> 
> Done
>>
>> - Please use a consistent decimal representation (sometimes 
>> commas are used other times periods)

There are instances where this is still an issue, e.g., search for 1,25.

>>
>> - the references [G709-v1] and [G709-v3] each actually refer 
>> to multiple documents, each documented needs to have it's own 
>> (correct) reference, i.g., [G709-v1] and [G709-v1a1]. The 
>> document text will need to be revisited to ensure the proper 
>> reference is made.
> 
> RFC4328 for older versions of G709 and G709-2012 for the latest one (v4)
> 

great.

>>
>> -
>> http://tools.ietf.org/idnits?url=http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft
> -ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model-04.txt
>> shows there are unresolved nits that need to resolved .  I'm 
>> using line numbers from this url in my subsequent comments.
>>
>> Line 18: Suggest dropping "The recent revision of"
>>

This chance was not made, was this intentional? (and this terminology
continues to be used.)  -- Yes this is a style comment -- so ignore as
you see fit.

>> Line 20/21: Suggest dropping the marketing phrase "enabling 
>> optimized support for an increasingly abundant service mix."
>>

This chance was not made, was this intentional?  I think form of
"marketing" doesn't belong in an PS -- just MO.

>> Lines 93-127 (through "of"): I don't see how this text 
>> provides any value.  I suggest dropping it, or at most just 
>> reference the FWK document.

No real change here.  This text remains.  Why are LSA types mentioned
here at all? They aren't mentioned in the body of the document so should
be removed.

>>
>> Lines 319-341: Instances of "G.709" should be "[G.709-V3]"
>>

still missing '[]'

[...]

Thanks I think that's it.
Lou


> 
>>
>> That's it on this document.
>>
>> Lou 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] 
>> On Behalf Of Lou Berger
>> Sent: giovedì 20 dicembre 2012 0.27
>> To: ccamp@ietf.org; draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model@tools.ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: 
>> draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model-05.txt
>>
>> Authors?
>>
>> On 12/4/2012 3:31 PM, Lou Berger wrote:
>>> Authors,
>>> 	Please review any changes and how LC comments are addressed.
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>> Lou
>>>
>>> On 11/28/2012 2:36 AM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>>>>
>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line 
>> Internet-Drafts directories.
>>>>  This draft is a work item of the Common Control and 
>> Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.
>>>>
>>>> 	Title           : Evaluation of existing GMPLS encoding 
>> against G.709v3 Optical Transport Networks (OTN)
>>>> 	Author(s)       : Sergio Belotti
>>>>                           Pietro Vittorio Grandi
>>>>                           Daniele Ceccarelli
>>>>                           Diego Caviglia
>>>>                           Fatai Zhang
>>>>                           Dan Li
>>>> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model-05.txt
>>>> 	Pages           : 22
>>>> 	Date            : 2012-11-27
>>>>
>>>> Abstract:
>>>>    The recent revision of ITU-T recommendation G.709 
>> [G.709-2012] has
>>>>    introduced new fixed and flexible Optical Data Unit 
>> (ODU) containers
>>>>    in Optical Transport Networks (OTNs), enabling optimized 
>> support for
>>>>    an increasingly abundant service mix.
>>>>
>>>>    This document provides an evaluation of existing Generalized
>>>>    Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) routing and 
>> signaling methods
>>>>    against the G.709-2012 OTN networks.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>>>>
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model
>>>>
>>>> There's also a htmlized version available at:
>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model-05
>>>>
>>>> A diff from the previous version is available at:
>>>>
>> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ccamp-otn-g709-info-model
>>>> -05
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>
> 
> 
> 

From daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com  Thu Dec 20 07:32:07 2012
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From: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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From: Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>
To: Fatai Zhang <zhangfatai@huawei.com>, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)" <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>, "Daniele Ceccarelli" <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] R: R:  Overlay model framework and context
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Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 15:33:31 +0000
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] R: R:  Overlay model framework and context
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From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Daniele,

The piece that's missing from your mail is that your "vpn" terms have
wider scope than just VPNs.  For example CEs, PEs, access
interfaces|links, inter-domain interfaces|links have scope well beyond
VPNs.

An alternate conclusion (which you have me now leaning towards) is that
we should just use CE and PE in place of OE and OC.

Lou

On 12/20/2012 10:32 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
> Excellent,
> 
> So you'd agree with the general overlay definitions of OC and OE. (which in the case of VPNs will be called CE and PE).
> 
> What about an analogous approach when we move from nodes to interfaces/links. A general name for the overlay most general case where specific exisitng names can be places (the famous umbrella).
> 
> - In the more generic case of overlay: the nodes are called OC and OE and the interface between OC and OE is called (ONI, OI, OCI, xxxlink or whatever)
> - In the case of interface supporting signaling only: The (ONI, OI, OCI, xxxlink or whatever) is a particular case of (ONI, OI, OCI or whatever) and is called UNI, and the nodes at its ends are called CN and EN (RFC4208)
> - In the case of VPNs: the (ONI, OI, OCI, xxxlink or whatever) is called access link and the nodes are called CE and PE.
> 
> I see no other way of putting some order among all the already existing terms.
> 
> BR
> Daniele
> 
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net] 
>> Sent: gioved¨¬ 20 dicembre 2012 15.39
>> To: Daniele Ceccarelli
>> Cc: Fatai Zhang; Igor Bryskin; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); CCAMP
>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>
>> Daniele,
>>
>> Just my opinion, but I see overlays as the (much) more generic 
>> term.  I think LxVPNs are types of overlays, as are 
>> traditional layered networks, as are the technologies that 
>> match/will result from discussions taking place in the NVO3 context.
>>
>> Lou
>>
>> On 12/20/2012 5:22 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
>>> I prefer using reference points instead of links.
>>> Access link and inter-domain links means tens of things in different 
>>> contexts, while e.g. UNI means one single thing and clearly 
>> identifies 
>>> the context. BTW it's just a preference, I don't mind how we'll 
>>> finally call it.
>>>
>>> There's one thing I would rather like to clarify and it's the 
>>> relationship with VPNs. We have two options:
>>>
>>> 1) Is a VPN a particular case of the overlay model?
>>> or
>>> 2) Is the overlay model a particular case of VPN?
>>>
>>> I think this can help a lot with terminology. I've always assumed 1) 
>>> but from what I read I tend to see that 2) has several supporters.
>>>
>>
>>> BR
>>> Daniele
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Fatai Zhang [mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com]
>>>> Sent: gioved¨¬ 20 dicembre 2012 2.44
>>>> To: Lou Berger; Igor Bryskin; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Daniele 
>>>> Ceccarelli
>>>> Cc: CCAMP
>>>> Subject: ´ð¸´: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> Support.
>>>>
>>>> People are more familiar with the existing things like 
>> "access links" 
>>>> and "inter-domain links" (or E-NNI links).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best Regards
>>>>
>>>> Fatai
>>>>
>>>> -----ÓÊ¼þÔ­¼þ-----
>>>> ·¢¼þÈË: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] ´ú±í
>>>> Lou Berger
>>>> ·¢ËÍÊ±¼ä: 2012Äê12ÔÂ20ÈÕ 7:08
>>>> ÊÕ¼þÈË: Igor Bryskin
>>>> ³­ËÍ: CCAMP
>>>> Ö÷Ìâ: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>>>
>>>> Igor,
>>>>
>>>> You said:
>>>> IB>> I like "access links" and "inter-domain links" better.
>>>>
>>>> This works for me.
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>>>
>>>> On 12/19/2012 12:27 PM, Igor Bryskin wrote:
>>>>> Lou, please see my answers to your questions
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org]
>>>> On Behalf
>>>>> Of Daniele Ceccarelli
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 5:57 AM
>>>>> To: Lou Berger
>>>>> Cc: CCAMP
>>>>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Lou,
>>>>>
>>>>> Plese find replies in line.
>>>>>
>>>>> BR
>>>>> Daniele
>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
>>>>>> Sent: luned¨¬ 17 dicembre 2012 20.45
>>>>>> To: Daniele Ceccarelli
>>>>>> Cc: CCAMP
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Daniele,
>>>>>> 	Thanks for getting this on-list discussion going.  I have some 
>>>>>> comments and questions:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - So what's a "client layer network" in this context?  
>> Perhaps you 
>>>>>> mean OC or "(overlay) customer layer"?
>>>>>
>>>>> IB>> Client layer is where Overlay Network topology exists. 
>>>> It includes:
>>>>> a) access links (connecting OCs to OEs)
>>>>> b) virtual links (connecting OE / OVNs (Overlay Virtual
>>>> Nodes) within
>>>>> a given server domain)
>>>>> c) inter-domain links (connecting OE to OE that belong to
>>>> neighboring
>>>>> server domains) All three categories exist in the same 
>> client layer 
>>>>> and named from the same naming space
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes. The terms client layer and server layer are
>>>> reminescences to be corrected.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - So what's a "server layer network" in this context?  
>> Perhaps you 
>>>>>> mean OE or "(overlay) provider layer"?
>>>>>
>>>>> IB>> It is the layer where the UNT (Underlay Network
>>>> Topology) exists
>>>>> IB>> (which may be in the same, lower or higher layer
>>>> network than of
>>>>> IB>> the ONT)
>>>>>
>>>>> Again correct
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - For OC, I'd thing referring back to a CE in the VPN 
>> context, and 
>>>>>> likewise to a PE for an OE, is helpful context.
>>>>> IB>> agree
>>>>>
>>>>> In the case of the interface we generally define the ONI as
>>>> an overlay interface that in a particular case is called UNI. 
>>>> I would apply the same method: those nodes are called Overlay 
>>>> Customer and Overlay Edge and in the particular case of 
>> VPNs they are 
>>>> the CE and PE respectively. What about that?
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - As you mention in the Appendix, (from the OC perspective)
>>>> there is
>>>>>> no difference between a virtual and real node
>>>>> IB>> Agree
>>>>>
>>>>>  (and presumably link as
>>>>>> well).  Given this and your comment in 8, that the ONI 
>> can take the 
>>>>>> form of a UNI or include both signaling and routing (i.e., a 
>>>>>> peer/I-NNI or
>>>>>> E-NNI) what value is there in introducing the ONI term?  
>>>> Said another
>>>>>> way, there's no specific term for the interface between a 
>> CE and PE 
>>>>>> in L3VPNs, so why do we need to introduce one in this context?
>>>>>
>>>>> We gave a name to the UNI, why don't giving to the ONI?
>>>>>
>>>>> IB>> As long as it allows for both or either signaling
>>>> and/or routing
>>>>> IB>> exchanges
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think this same comment probably holds for the O-NNI
>>>> (e.g., what's
>>>>>> the name of the interface between providers which support L3VPN 
>>>>>> handoffs?)...
>>>>>
>>>>> I would suggest giving a name to that interface also in
>>>> order to distinguish between an "internal" and an "external" 
>>>> link when multiple overlay provider network domains are present.
>>>>>
>>>>> IB>> I like "access links" and "inter-domain links" better. 
>>>> Note also that a "link" and "node" are TE topology concepts and 
>>>> orthogonal to CP interfaces (which are Signaling/Routing speakers). 
>>>> If you mean by "internal" and "external" links the CP connectivity, 
>>>> than I agree with you.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Much thanks,
>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12/17/2012 6:17 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
>>>>>>> Dear CCAMPers,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the
>>>>>> Overlay model framework and related works took place. Some 
>>>>>> discussions led to some sort of agreemet among a small group of 
>>>>>> people, some others to a set a viable options, some others
>>>> to totally
>>>>>> open issues. I tried to summarize the output of such discussions 
>>>>>> below so to progress the discussions into a single thread
>>>> on the WG ML.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a
>>>>>> well shaped and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to 
>> provide the 
>>>>>> basis for starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea 
>> (step 1) 
>>>>>> instead of starting it from scratch (step 0).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a
>>>>>> proposal of the overlay scenario.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Daniele
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> + Disclaimer:
>>>>>>>  1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work
>>>>>> can be extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> + Terminology:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between
>>>>>> two virtual or real network elements in a client layer
>>>> network  that
>>>>>> is maintained/controlled in and by the server domain 
>> control plane 
>>>>>> (and as such cannot transport any traffic/data and protected from 
>>>>>> being
>>>>>> de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the data
>>>> plane (and
>>>>>> then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving
>>>> previously
>>>>>> advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.
>>>>>>>  2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or
>>>>>> more server network  domain nodes that are collectively 
>> represented 
>>>>>> to the clients as a single node that exists in the client layer 
>>>>>> network and is capable of terminating of access, inter-domain and 
>>>>>> virtual links.
>>>>>>>  3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one
>>>>>> or more virtual or real server network domain nodes that
>>>> exist in the
>>>>>> client layer network and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual 
>>>>>> links.
>>>>>>>  4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies
>>>>>> provided by each of server network domains, access and 
>> inter-domain 
>>>>>> links.
>>>>>>>  5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that
>>>>>> link. It can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
>>>>>>>  6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208
>>>>>> teminology  but (i) receiving virtual topology from the
>>>> core network
>>>>>> and requesting the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting the 
>>>>>> computation and establishment of a path accordingly to gien 
>>>>>> constraints in the core network and receiving the parameters 
>>>>>> characterizing such path. (ii) == UNI.
>>>>>>>  7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but
>>>>>> able to deal with (i) and (ii) above.
>>>>>>>  8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for
>>>>>> signaling and routing messages exchange between Overlay and Core 
>>>>>> network. Routing information consists on virtual topology 
>>>>>> advertisement. When there is no routing adjacency across the 
>>>>>> interface it is equivalent to the GMPLS UNI defined in 4208.
>>>>>> Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information
>>>> related to
>>>>>> path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected SRLG, path delay 
>>>>>> etc, either passed from OE to OC via signaling after the LSP 
>>>>>> establishment in the core network or from OC to OE to be
>>>> used as path
>>>>>> computation constraints, fall under the definition of
>>>> signaling info
>>>>>> and not routing info).
>>>>>>>  9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the
>>>>>> links between different core networks in the overlay model 
>>>>>> environment, i.e. Between border OEs. Same features of the
>>>> ONI apply
>>>>>> to this interface. Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name
>>>> is needed?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> + Statements
>>>>>>>  1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build
>>>>>> an overlay
>>>>>>> topology for the client network domains  2. The overlay
>>>>>> topology is comprised of:
>>>>>>>     a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the
>>>>>> server network domains). They can be PSC or LSC.
>>>>>>>     b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server
>>>>>> network domains)   
>>>>>>>     c) virtual topology provided by the server network
>>>>>> domains. Virtual Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) + 
>> Connectivity Matrix 
>>>>>> (with a set of parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments, 
>> delay etc 
>>>>>> for each entry) describing connectivity between access links and 
>>>>>> virtual links.
>>>>>>>  3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy
>>>> of overlay
>>>>>>> topologies with overlay/underlay relationships  4. In the
>>>> context of
>>>>>>> overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships
>>>>>> are peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network 
>>>>>> integration 5. The overlay model assumes one instance for
>>>> the client
>>>>>> network and a separate instance for the server network and
>>>> in the ONI
>>>>>> case the server network also surreptitiously participates in the 
>>>>>> client network by injecting virtual topology information into it.
>>>>>>>  6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over
>>>>>> the ONI (it falls under the UNI case as no routing 
>> adjacency is in 
>>>>>> place between OC and OE).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> + Open issues/questions
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>  1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about
>>>>>> PCE and PCEP into the overlay framework context?
>>>>>>>  2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
>>>>>>>  3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> + Appendix:
>>>>>>> Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>>>>>>> 1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale 
>>>>>> because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs
>>>> have the
>>>>>> same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs
>>>>>>> 2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is 
>>>>>> by having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the 
>>>>>> middle of the virtual topology
>>>>>>> 3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server 
>>>>>> domain switches, because, generally speaking:
>>>>>>>   a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
>>>>>>>   b)Real switches are named from different naming space
>>>>>>>   c)real switches individually may not have sufficient
>>>>>> resources to terminate virtual links (while a group of real
>>>> switches
>>>>>> collectively will have)
>>>>>>>   d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual
>>>>>> node have better scalability qualities
>>>>>>> 4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real 
>>>>>> node, you need to keep in mind that real server domain
>>>> switches are,
>>>>>> generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must 
>> expose their 
>>>>>> connectivity matrices
>>>>>>> 5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that 
>>>>>> could potentially go through a real server domain switch, the 
>>>>>> latter's connectivity matrix must expose "internal" 
>> SRLGs, so that 
>>>>>> the two services traversing the switch will not 
>> simultaneously fail 
>>>>>> if a single internal element shared by the services fails
>>>>>>> 6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be 
>>>>>> addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies 
>> with blocking 
>>>>>> switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no
>>>> difference
>>>>>> between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
>>>>>>> 7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected 
>>>>>> to server network domain must be upgraded so that they could 
>>>>>> understand the connectivity matrices advertised by the 
>> border nodes 
>>>>>> describing connectivity constraints between access links
>>>> and virtual
>>>>>> links they terminate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> ===================================
>>>>>>> DANIELE CECCARELLI
>>>>>>> System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Via E.Melen, 77
>>>>>>> Genova, Italy
>>>>>>> Phone +390106002512
>>>>>>> Mobile +393346725750
>>>>>>> daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>>>>>>> www.ericsson.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive
>>>>>> email on
>>>>>>> the basis of the term set out at 
>> www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>>
>>>
>>
> 

From daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com  Thu Dec 20 07:51:49 2012
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From: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 15:51:41 +0000
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Think of it this way.  Are the overlays we're talking about here any
different from the other overlays being talked about at the IETF?  (See
threads in MPLS or NVO3, for example.)

(a) If yes, then we should probably figure out how they differ, and
ensure are terminology is aligned with this 'uniqueness'.

(b) If no, then we should be using the terminology already in use in the
broader discussion or be prepared to drive the terminology into the
wider discussion.  -- I personally have no problem with the latter if
the existing terminology really is insufficient.

Whether intended or not, your mail pointed out to me that we're in
situation (b).  Do you disagree?

Lou

On 12/20/2012 10:51 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
> You thought the world was grey, I spent half an hour to write an email trying to convince you that world is white and now you're convinced that the world is black!!!  :)
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net] 
>> Sent: gioved¨¬ 20 dicembre 2012 16.42
>> To: Daniele Ceccarelli
>> Cc: Fatai Zhang; Igor Bryskin; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); CCAMP
>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>
>> Daniele,
>>
>> The piece that's missing from your mail is that your "vpn" 
>> terms have wider scope than just VPNs.  For example CEs, PEs, access
>> interfaces|links, inter-domain interfaces|links have scope well beyond
>> VPNs.
>>
>> An alternate conclusion (which you have me now leaning 
>> towards) is that we should just use CE and PE in place of OE and OC.
>>
>> Lou
>>
>> On 12/20/2012 10:32 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
>>> Excellent,
>>>
>>> So you'd agree with the general overlay definitions of OC 
>> and OE. (which in the case of VPNs will be called CE and PE).
>>>
>>> What about an analogous approach when we move from nodes to 
>> interfaces/links. A general name for the overlay most general 
>> case where specific exisitng names can be places (the famous umbrella).
>>>
>>> - In the more generic case of overlay: the nodes are called 
>> OC and OE 
>>> and the interface between OC and OE is called (ONI, OI, OCI, xxxlink 
>>> or whatever)
>>> - In the case of interface supporting signaling only: The (ONI, OI, 
>>> OCI, xxxlink or whatever) is a particular case of (ONI, OI, OCI or 
>>> whatever) and is called UNI, and the nodes at its ends are called CN 
>>> and EN (RFC4208)
>>> - In the case of VPNs: the (ONI, OI, OCI, xxxlink or 
>> whatever) is called access link and the nodes are called CE and PE.
>>>
>>> I see no other way of putting some order among all the 
>> already existing terms.
>>>
>>> BR
>>> Daniele
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
>>>> Sent: gioved¨¬ 20 dicembre 2012 15.39
>>>> To: Daniele Ceccarelli
>>>> Cc: Fatai Zhang; Igor Bryskin; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); CCAMP
>>>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>>>
>>>> Daniele,
>>>>
>>>> Just my opinion, but I see overlays as the (much) more 
>> generic term.  
>>>> I think LxVPNs are types of overlays, as are traditional layered 
>>>> networks, as are the technologies that match/will result from 
>>>> discussions taking place in the NVO3 context.
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>>>
>>>> On 12/20/2012 5:22 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
>>>>> I prefer using reference points instead of links.
>>>>> Access link and inter-domain links means tens of things in 
>> different 
>>>>> contexts, while e.g. UNI means one single thing and clearly
>>>> identifies
>>>>> the context. BTW it's just a preference, I don't mind how we'll 
>>>>> finally call it.
>>>>>
>>>>> There's one thing I would rather like to clarify and it's the 
>>>>> relationship with VPNs. We have two options:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) Is a VPN a particular case of the overlay model?
>>>>> or
>>>>> 2) Is the overlay model a particular case of VPN?
>>>>>
>>>>> I think this can help a lot with terminology. I've always 
>> assumed 1) 
>>>>> but from what I read I tend to see that 2) has several supporters.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> BR
>>>>> Daniele
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Fatai Zhang [mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com]
>>>>>> Sent: gioved¨¬ 20 dicembre 2012 2.44
>>>>>> To: Lou Berger; Igor Bryskin; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Daniele 
>>>>>> Ceccarelli
>>>>>> Cc: CCAMP
>>>>>> Subject: ´ð¸´: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Support.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> People are more familiar with the existing things like
>>>> "access links" 
>>>>>> and "inter-domain links" (or E-NNI links).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best Regards
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fatai
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----ÓÊ¼þÔ­¼þ-----
>>>>>> ·¢¼þÈË: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] ´ú±í
>>>>>> Lou Berger
>>>>>> ·¢ËÍÊ±¼ä: 2012Äê12ÔÂ20ÈÕ 7:08
>>>>>> ÊÕ¼þÈË: Igor Bryskin
>>>>>> ³­ËÍ: CCAMP
>>>>>> Ö÷Ìâ: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Igor,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You said:
>>>>>> IB>> I like "access links" and "inter-domain links" better.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This works for me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12/19/2012 12:27 PM, Igor Bryskin wrote:
>>>>>>> Lou, please see my answers to your questions
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org]
>>>>>> On Behalf
>>>>>>> Of Daniele Ceccarelli
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 5:57 AM
>>>>>>> To: Lou Berger
>>>>>>> Cc: CCAMP
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Lou,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Plese find replies in line.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BR
>>>>>>> Daniele
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
>>>>>>>> Sent: luned¨¬ 17 dicembre 2012 20.45
>>>>>>>> To: Daniele Ceccarelli
>>>>>>>> Cc: CCAMP
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Daniele,
>>>>>>>> 	Thanks for getting this on-list discussion 
>> going.  I have some 
>>>>>>>> comments and questions:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - So what's a "client layer network" in this context?  
>>>> Perhaps you
>>>>>>>> mean OC or "(overlay) customer layer"?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> IB>> Client layer is where Overlay Network topology exists. 
>>>>>> It includes:
>>>>>>> a) access links (connecting OCs to OEs)
>>>>>>> b) virtual links (connecting OE / OVNs (Overlay Virtual
>>>>>> Nodes) within
>>>>>>> a given server domain)
>>>>>>> c) inter-domain links (connecting OE to OE that belong to
>>>>>> neighboring
>>>>>>> server domains) All three categories exist in the same
>>>> client layer
>>>>>>> and named from the same naming space
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes. The terms client layer and server layer are
>>>>>> reminescences to be corrected.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - So what's a "server layer network" in this context?  
>>>> Perhaps you
>>>>>>>> mean OE or "(overlay) provider layer"?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> IB>> It is the layer where the UNT (Underlay Network
>>>>>> Topology) exists
>>>>>>> IB>> (which may be in the same, lower or higher layer
>>>>>> network than of
>>>>>>> IB>> the ONT)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Again correct
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - For OC, I'd thing referring back to a CE in the VPN
>>>> context, and
>>>>>>>> likewise to a PE for an OE, is helpful context.
>>>>>>> IB>> agree
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the case of the interface we generally define the ONI as
>>>>>> an overlay interface that in a particular case is called UNI. 
>>>>>> I would apply the same method: those nodes are called Overlay 
>>>>>> Customer and Overlay Edge and in the particular case of
>>>> VPNs they are
>>>>>> the CE and PE respectively. What about that?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - As you mention in the Appendix, (from the OC perspective)
>>>>>> there is
>>>>>>>> no difference between a virtual and real node
>>>>>>> IB>> Agree
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  (and presumably link as
>>>>>>>> well).  Given this and your comment in 8, that the ONI
>>>> can take the
>>>>>>>> form of a UNI or include both signaling and routing (i.e., a 
>>>>>>>> peer/I-NNI or
>>>>>>>> E-NNI) what value is there in introducing the ONI term?  
>>>>>> Said another
>>>>>>>> way, there's no specific term for the interface between a
>>>> CE and PE
>>>>>>>> in L3VPNs, so why do we need to introduce one in this context?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We gave a name to the UNI, why don't giving to the ONI?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> IB>> As long as it allows for both or either signaling
>>>>>> and/or routing
>>>>>>> IB>> exchanges
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think this same comment probably holds for the O-NNI
>>>>>> (e.g., what's
>>>>>>>> the name of the interface between providers which support L3VPN 
>>>>>>>> handoffs?)...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would suggest giving a name to that interface also in
>>>>>> order to distinguish between an "internal" and an "external" 
>>>>>> link when multiple overlay provider network domains are present.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> IB>> I like "access links" and "inter-domain links" better. 
>>>>>> Note also that a "link" and "node" are TE topology concepts and 
>>>>>> orthogonal to CP interfaces (which are Signaling/Routing 
>> speakers).
>>>>>> If you mean by "internal" and "external" links the CP 
>> connectivity, 
>>>>>> than I agree with you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Much thanks,
>>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 12/17/2012 6:17 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Dear CCAMPers,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the
>>>>>>>> Overlay model framework and related works took place. Some 
>>>>>>>> discussions led to some sort of agreemet among a small group of 
>>>>>>>> people, some others to a set a viable options, some others
>>>>>> to totally
>>>>>>>> open issues. I tried to summarize the output of such 
>> discussions 
>>>>>>>> below so to progress the discussions into a single thread
>>>>>> on the WG ML.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a
>>>>>>>> well shaped and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to
>>>> provide the
>>>>>>>> basis for starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea
>>>> (step 1)
>>>>>>>> instead of starting it from scratch (step 0).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a
>>>>>>>> proposal of the overlay scenario.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>> Daniele
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> + Disclaimer:
>>>>>>>>>  1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work
>>>>>>>> can be extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> + Terminology:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between
>>>>>>>> two virtual or real network elements in a client layer
>>>>>> network  that
>>>>>>>> is maintained/controlled in and by the server domain
>>>> control plane
>>>>>>>> (and as such cannot transport any traffic/data and 
>> protected from 
>>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>>> de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the data
>>>>>> plane (and
>>>>>>>> then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving
>>>>>> previously
>>>>>>>> advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.
>>>>>>>>>  2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or
>>>>>>>> more server network  domain nodes that are collectively
>>>> represented
>>>>>>>> to the clients as a single node that exists in the client layer 
>>>>>>>> network and is capable of terminating of access, 
>> inter-domain and 
>>>>>>>> virtual links.
>>>>>>>>>  3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one
>>>>>>>> or more virtual or real server network domain nodes that
>>>>>> exist in the
>>>>>>>> client layer network and are interconnected via 0 or 
>> more virtual 
>>>>>>>> links.
>>>>>>>>>  4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies
>>>>>>>> provided by each of server network domains, access and
>>>> inter-domain
>>>>>>>> links.
>>>>>>>>>  5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that
>>>>>>>> link. It can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
>>>>>>>>>  6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208
>>>>>>>> teminology  but (i) receiving virtual topology from the
>>>>>> core network
>>>>>>>> and requesting the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting the 
>>>>>>>> computation and establishment of a path accordingly to gien 
>>>>>>>> constraints in the core network and receiving the parameters 
>>>>>>>> characterizing such path. (ii) == UNI.
>>>>>>>>>  7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but
>>>>>>>> able to deal with (i) and (ii) above.
>>>>>>>>>  8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for
>>>>>>>> signaling and routing messages exchange between Overlay 
>> and Core 
>>>>>>>> network. Routing information consists on virtual topology 
>>>>>>>> advertisement. When there is no routing adjacency across the 
>>>>>>>> interface it is equivalent to the GMPLS UNI defined in 4208.
>>>>>>>> Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information
>>>>>> related to
>>>>>>>> path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected SRLG, 
>> path delay 
>>>>>>>> etc, either passed from OE to OC via signaling after the LSP 
>>>>>>>> establishment in the core network or from OC to OE to be
>>>>>> used as path
>>>>>>>> computation constraints, fall under the definition of
>>>>>> signaling info
>>>>>>>> and not routing info).
>>>>>>>>>  9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the
>>>>>>>> links between different core networks in the overlay model 
>>>>>>>> environment, i.e. Between border OEs. Same features of the
>>>>>> ONI apply
>>>>>>>> to this interface. Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name
>>>>>> is needed?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> + Statements
>>>>>>>>>  1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build
>>>>>>>> an overlay
>>>>>>>>> topology for the client network domains  2. The overlay
>>>>>>>> topology is comprised of:
>>>>>>>>>     a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the
>>>>>>>> server network domains). They can be PSC or LSC.
>>>>>>>>>     b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server
>>>>>>>> network domains)   
>>>>>>>>>     c) virtual topology provided by the server network
>>>>>>>> domains. Virtual Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) +
>>>> Connectivity Matrix
>>>>>>>> (with a set of parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments,
>>>> delay etc
>>>>>>>> for each entry) describing connectivity between access 
>> links and 
>>>>>>>> virtual links.
>>>>>>>>>  3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy
>>>>>> of overlay
>>>>>>>>> topologies with overlay/underlay relationships  4. In the
>>>>>> context of
>>>>>>>>> overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships
>>>>>>>> are peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network 
>>>>>>>> integration 5. The overlay model assumes one instance for
>>>>>> the client
>>>>>>>> network and a separate instance for the server network and
>>>>>> in the ONI
>>>>>>>> case the server network also surreptitiously 
>> participates in the 
>>>>>>>> client network by injecting virtual topology 
>> information into it.
>>>>>>>>>  6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over
>>>>>>>> the ONI (it falls under the UNI case as no routing
>>>> adjacency is in
>>>>>>>> place between OC and OE).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> + Open issues/questions
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>  1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about
>>>>>>>> PCE and PCEP into the overlay framework context?
>>>>>>>>>  2. BGP-LS needs to be considered  3. Should potentials be 
>>>>>>>>> included? E.g. I2RS?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> + Appendix:
>>>>>>>>> Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>>>>>>>>> 1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale 
>>>>>>>> because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs
>>>>>> have the
>>>>>>>> same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs
>>>>>>>>> 2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is 
>>>>>>>> by having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual 
>> Links in the 
>>>>>>>> middle of the virtual topology
>>>>>>>>> 3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server 
>>>>>>>> domain switches, because, generally speaking:
>>>>>>>>>   a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
>>>>>>>>>   b)Real switches are named from different naming space
>>>>>>>>>   c)real switches individually may not have sufficient
>>>>>>>> resources to terminate virtual links (while a group of real
>>>>>> switches
>>>>>>>> collectively will have)
>>>>>>>>>   d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual
>>>>>>>> node have better scalability qualities
>>>>>>>>> 4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real 
>>>>>>>> node, you need to keep in mind that real server domain
>>>>>> switches are,
>>>>>>>> generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must
>>>> expose their
>>>>>>>> connectivity matrices
>>>>>>>>> 5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that 
>>>>>>>> could potentially go through a real server domain switch, the 
>>>>>>>> latter's connectivity matrix must expose "internal"
>>>> SRLGs, so that
>>>>>>>> the two services traversing the switch will not
>>>> simultaneously fail
>>>>>>>> if a single internal element shared by the services fails
>>>>>>>>> 6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be 
>>>>>>>> addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies
>>>> with blocking
>>>>>>>> switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no
>>>>>> difference
>>>>>>>> between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
>>>>>>>>> 7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected 
>>>>>>>> to server network domain must be upgraded so that they could 
>>>>>>>> understand the connectivity matrices advertised by the
>>>> border nodes
>>>>>>>> describing connectivity constraints between access links
>>>>>> and virtual
>>>>>>>> links they terminate.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>> ===================================
>>>>>>>>> DANIELE CECCARELLI
>>>>>>>>> System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Via E.Melen, 77
>>>>>>>>> Genova, Italy
>>>>>>>>> Phone +390106002512
>>>>>>>>> Mobile +393346725750
>>>>>>>>> daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>>>>>>>>> www.ericsson.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive
>>>>>>>> email on
>>>>>>>>> the basis of the term set out at
>>>> www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>>>>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
> 

From IBryskin@advaoptical.com  Thu Dec 20 08:01:29 2012
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From: Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>
To: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>, Gert Grammel <ggrammel@juniper.net>, CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Daniele,
It seems we have a disconnect here.

OC1-----OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DOE2-----OC2
OC3-----OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DOE2-----OC4

Generally speaking OEs are blocking switches, and the connectivity matrices=
 need to be advertised by OEs, so that the client path computer will know ,=
 for example, that OC1-OE1 access link can be switched to VL1 (but not to V=
L2). One way to alleviate the client path computation from dealing with con=
nectivity matrices is by presenting OEs as sets of independent fully symmet=
rical Virtual Nodes:

OC1-----VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3-----OC2
OC3-----VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4-----OC4=20

Igor

-----Original Message-----
From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 4:41 AM
To: Igor Bryskin; Gert Grammel; CCAMP
Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context

Hi Igor,

Unfortunately your drawing is totally misaligned, is this a correct re-draw=
ing?

OC1------If1:OE1                          OE2:IF4---------OC2
             OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2=20

answer : is neither a), b) nor c)

OC1------If1:OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF4---------OC2
             OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2=20

With respect to Q2:

>Q2: if on the other side we considered the virtual link being=20
>B) (i.e. From IF1 to IF4 hence with an "implicit" node=20
>connectivity matrix) which would be the drawbacks of this solution?
>
>IB>>  VL cannot start on a customer facing interface. OE is a=20
>(blocking)=20
>IB>> switch between access and virtual TE links

I still believe the tranffic matrix can be implicitely advertised as part o=
f the VL. Consider this:

OC3------If5:OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL1 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF6---------OC4
OC1------If1:OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL2 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF4---------OC2
             OE1:If2-------------------If3:OE2=20

OE1 is a blocking node because only allows OC3 to be connected to VL1 and O=
C1 to VL2. But if you just advertise VL1 to OC3 (not VL2) and VL2 to OC1 (n=
ot VL1) aren't you implicitely hiding the blocking nature of OE1?

Cheers,
Daniele


>-----Original Message-----
>From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com]=20
>Sent: mercoled=EC 19 dicembre 2012 18.03
>To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Gert Grammel; CCAMP
>Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>Daniele,
>Please, see in line.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 9:53 AM
>To: Igor Bryskin; Gert Grammel; CCAMP
>Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>Hi Igor,
>
>Just focusing on the virtual links for a while; i must admit=20
>that i'm a bit confused by your last mail. Let's pick the=20
>figure i sent.
>
>>OC1                               OC2
>>  \    +---+IF2       IF3+---+    /
>>   \IF1|OE1|-------------|OE2|IF4/
>>       +---+             +---+
>>
>>A) Virtual link is from OC1 to OC2
>>B) Virtual link is from IF1 to IF4
>>C) Virtual link is from IF2 to IF3
>
>IB>> My understanding of your picture is this:
>
>OC1------If1:OE1                                    =20
>OE2:IF4---------OC2
>                       OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2 My=20
>answer : is neither a), b) nor c)
>
>OC1------If1:OE1  =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF4--------=
-OC2
>                       OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2
>
>VL is between OE1 and OE 2, potential server trail is between=20
>IF2 and IF3
>
>According to the definition given:
>"A virtual link is a potential path between two virtual or=20
>real network elements in a client layer"=20
>I would say that a virtual link is from OC1 to OC2, which is A).
>
>IB>> See above
>
>Then, from your latest definition:
>" a potential path between two virtual or real server domain=20
>network elements"
>I would say that a virtual link can be either B) or C).
>IB>> See above
>
>Then you speak about access links, which implies that the link=20
>between OC1 and OE1 has its own dignity and hence that the=20
>virtual link is C) in picture above.=20
>
>IB>> Links OC1- OE1 and OC2-OE2 are access links
>
>Now i have 2 questions:
>
>Q1: can you confirm that a virtual link is C)? Then we need to=20
>update the definition of a virtual link removing any=20
>misleading reference to client/server domain Network elements=20
>and speak about OCs and OEs. =20
>
>Q2: if on the other side we considered the virtual link being=20
>B) (i.e. From IF1 to IF4 hence with an "implicit" node=20
>connectivity matrix) which would be the drawbacks of this solution?
>
>IB>>  VL cannot start on a customer facing interface. OE is a=20
>(blocking)=20
>IB>> switch between access and virtual TE links
>
>
>Thanks
>Daniele
>
>
>
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com]
>>Sent: luned=EC 17 dicembre 2012 21.12
>>To: Gert Grammel; Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP
>>Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>
>>Gert,
>>
>>Please, see in line. I disagree with pretty much everything you say.=20
>>Igor
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org]=20
>On Behalf=20
>>Of Gert Grammel
>>Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 8:27 AM
>>To: Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP
>>Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>
>>Daniele,
>>
>>Thank you for summarizing the current state of discussion. To move=20
>>forward and to encourage comments, let me point to some of the issues=20
>>that are debated:
>>
>>1) Virtual Link: in the terminology statement a virtual link seems to=20
>>connect two client elements.
>>IB>> The definition says:
>>"1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between two=20
>>virtual or real network elements in a client layer", what makes you=20
>>think that anyone ever applied that this is a path between client=20
>>devices? The definition should say, though: " a potential=20
>path between=20
>>two virtual or real server domain network elements"
>>
>> However later on the 3) virtual topology is composed of access links=20
>>and virtual links. Hence. Virtual links connect server nodes, not=20
>>client nodes.
>>IB>> see above
>>
>> By doing so, segments (AL and VL) are created.
>>
>>2) The scalability consideration in the appendix for VL is based on=20
>>terminology 1) rather than on virtual topology
>>
>>IB>> I completely disagree with this, see below
>>
>>3). This way it doesn't describe then the  scalability of a virtual=20
>>topology (which doesn't necessitate a full mesh) but rather that of a=20
>>virtual node (which implies a full connectivity matrix).
>>
>>To sum up:
>>1) we have to come up with a crisp definition of a VL in a virtual=20
>>topology that is different from a terminology 1) VL.
>>Here is a gap
>>2) A Model based on a vitual node or 'terminology 1) links'=20
>>create n**2 problems on client side and does not scale.
>>3) 'VNT'-virtual-links 3) and access links are supposed to=20
>address the=20
>>scaling problem. We need to clean up our terminology.=20
>Otherwise we end=20
>>up associating limitations of terminology 1) links with=20
>VNT-links that=20
>>address those limitations.
>>
>>IB>> It seems to me that you completely misunderstand current=20
>>IB>> definitions
>>
>>Now looking at the appendix it sadly reflects the terminology=20
>confusion=20
>>and jumps to assessment and conclusions. That's unfortunate:
>>
>>The first line says:
>>Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>>1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly,
>>--> is it now about virtual nodes or virtual links or VNT links?
>>IB>> Virtual Link Model includes access, inter-domain and
>>virtual links
>>IB>> but does not include virtual nodes
>>
>>2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is by=20
>>having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the middle=20
>>of the virtual topology
>>--> that's why access links are so useful. They end at server nodes=20
>>--> which are connected via virtual links
>>
>>IB>> A combination of access and virtual links alone *does not
>>address N**2 problem*.
>>Consider 1000 client devices connected via 1000 access links to the=20
>>network that need to be fully interconnected. You will need=20
>1000000 VLs=20
>>to do so. You need to have one or more Virtual Nodes in the middle of=20
>>the virtual topology to solve this issue. Overlay Network Topology is=20
>>no different from real network topology, and real network=20
>topologies do=20
>>include Ps, not just PEs
>>=20
>>3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain=20
>>switches, because, generally speaking:
>>--> in case of VNT-VLs no intermediate nodes are necessarily required
>>IB>> See  above, IMO you are dead wrong
>>
>>4.  --> No need to comment, this way doesn't scale anyway.
>>IB>> ONTs with virtual nodes scale no worse that real network
>>topologies
>>
>>5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could=20
>>potentially go through a real server domain switch, the latter's=20
>>connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so that the two=20
>>services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail=20
>if a single=20
>>internal element shared by the services fails
>>--> who is 'you' that computes? A client selects among VNT
>>virtual links based on exposed SRLGs, VLs are computed by the server=20
>>with full knowledge of constraints. So what does an 'internal' SRLG=20
>>mean to a server path computation?
>>
>>IB>> You is the client path computer. If the two paths are
>>going through
>>IB>> the same node, they may overlap inside the node, which=20
>means they=20
>>IB>> can be brought down by a single network failure. That's why you=20
>>IB>> need to expose  node's internal SRLGs or try to find node
>>disjoint
>>IB>> paths (which may not be available)
>>
>>6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be=20
>>addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking=20
>>switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no difference=20
>>between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
>>--> I suggest to model a complete network of say 5 nodes in a
>>single VN and compare it with the model of a single real node.
>>
>>IB>> Please, do that
>>
>>--> The assessments made have used a terminology definition
>>that doesn't really capture the case made for VNT-VLs.
>>That's why I would have had appreciated to split definitions and work=20
>>items agreed among a group from individual assessments in separate=20
>>emails.
>>Nevertheless I consider the first part of your email (all except the
>>appendix) as a good starting point for further clarification.
>>
>>Gert
>>________________________________________
>>From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Daniele Ceccarelli
>>Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 12:17:08 PM
>>To: CCAMP
>>Subject: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>
>>Dear CCAMPers,
>>
>>In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the Overlay model=20
>>framework and related works took place. Some discussions led to some=20
>>sort of agreemet among a small group of people, some others=20
>to a set a=20
>>viable options, some others to totally open issues. I tried to=20
>>summarize the output of such discussions below so to progress the=20
>>discussions into a single thread on the WG ML.
>>
>>Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a well shaped=20
>>and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to provide the basis for=20
>>starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea (step 1) instead of=20
>>starting it from scratch (step 0).
>>
>>In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a proposal of the=20
>>overlay scenario.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Daniele
>>
>>+ Disclaimer:
>> 1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work can be=20
>>extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.
>>
>>+ Terminology:
>>
>> 1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between two=20
>>virtual or real network elements in a client layer network  that is=20
>>maintained/controlled in and by the server domain control=20
>plane (and as=20
>>such cannot transport any traffic/data and protected from being
>>de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the data plane (and=20
>>then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving previously=20
>>advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.
>> 2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or=20
>more server=20
>>network  domain nodes that are collectively represented to=20
>the clients=20
>>as a single node that exists in the client layer network and=20
>is capable=20
>>of terminating of access, inter-domain and virtual links.
>> 3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one or more=20
>>virtual or real server network domain nodes that exist in the client=20
>>layer network and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual links.
>> 4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies=20
>provided by=20
>>each of server network domains, access and inter-domain links.
>> 5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that link. It=20
>>can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
>> 6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208=20
>teminology=20
>>but (i) receiving virtual topology from the core network and=20
>requesting=20
>>the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting the computation and=20
>>establishment of a path accordingly to gien constraints in the core=20
>>network and receiving the parameters characterizing such=20
>path. (ii) =3D=3D=20
>>UNI.
>> 7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but able to=20
>>deal with (i) and (ii) above.
>> 8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for signaling=20
>>and routing messages exchange between Overlay and Core=20
>network. Routing=20
>>information consists on virtual topology advertisement. When there is=20
>>no routing adjacency across the interface it is equivalent to=20
>the GMPLS=20
>>UNI defined in 4208.
>>Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information related to=20
>>path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected SRLG, path=20
>delay etc,=20
>>either passed from OE to OC via signaling after the LSP establishment=20
>>in the core network or from OC to OE to be used as path computation=20
>>constraints, fall under the definition of signaling info and not=20
>>routing info).
>> 9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the links=20
>>between different core networks in the overlay model environment, i.e.
>>Between border OEs. Same features of the ONI apply to this interface.=20
>>Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name is needed?
>>
>>+ Statements
>> 1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build an overlay=20
>>topology for the client network domains  2. The overlay topology is=20
>>comprised of:
>>    a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the=20
>server network=20
>>domains). They can be PSC or LSC.
>>    b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server network
>>domains)
>>    c) virtual topology provided by the server network=20
>domains. Virtual=20
>>Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) + Connectivity Matrix (with a set of=20
>>parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments, delay etc for each entry)=20
>>describing connectivity between access links and virtual links.
>> 3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy  of overlay=20
>>topologies with overlay/underlay relationships  4. In the context of=20
>>overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships are=20
>>peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network integration  5.
>>The overlay model assumes one instance for the client network and a=20
>>separate instance for the server network and in the ONI case=20
>the server=20
>>network also surreptitiously participates in the client network by=20
>>injecting virtual topology information into it.
>> 6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over=20
>the ONI (it=20
>>falls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency is in place=20
>between OC=20
>>and OE).
>>
>>+ Open issues/questions
>>
>> 1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about PCE=20
>and PCEP=20
>>into the overlay framework context?
>> 2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
>> 3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?
>>
>>+ Appendix:
>>Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>>1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale=20
>>because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs have the=20
>>same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs
>>2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is by=20
>>having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the middle=20
>>of the virtual topology
>>3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain=20
>>switches, because, generally speaking:
>>  a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
>>  b)Real switches are named from different naming space
>>  c)real switches individually may not have sufficient resources to=20
>>terminate virtual links (while a group of real switches collectively=20
>>will have)
>>  d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual node have=20
>>better scalability qualities
>>4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real node,=20
>>you need to keep in mind that real server domain switches are,=20
>>generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must expose their=20
>>connectivity matrices
>>5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could=20
>>potentially go through a real server domain switch, the latter's=20
>>connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so that the two=20
>>services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail=20
>if a single=20
>>internal element shared by the services fails
>>6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be=20
>>addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking=20
>>switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no difference=20
>>between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
>>7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected to=20
>>server network domain must be upgraded so that they could understand=20
>>the connectivity matrices advertised by the border nodes describing=20
>>connectivity constraints between access links and virtual links they=20
>>terminate.
>>
>>
>>
>>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>DANIELE CECCARELLI
>>System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro
>>
>>Via E.Melen, 77
>>Genova, Italy
>>Phone +390106002512
>>Mobile +393346725750
>>daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>>www.ericsson.com
>>
>>This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive email on=20
>>the basis of the term set out at www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>CCAMP mailing list
>>CCAMP@ietf.org
>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>
>

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To: Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>, Fatai Zhang <zhangfatai@huawei.com>, Gert Grammel <ggrammel@juniper.net>
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Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] R: R:  Overlay model framework and context
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To: "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)" <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>, "Fatai Zhang" <zhangfatai@huawei.com>, Gert Grammel <ggrammel@juniper.net>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] R: R:  Overlay model framework and context
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Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 10:08:54 -0800
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From: Snigdho Bardalai <sbardalai1@gmail.com>
To: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Regarding the question about overlay and VPNs -

The current discussions have been mostly around the customer and provider
interface and so the question that arises is whether the provider to
provider interface is in the scope of this work. IMO - overlay would fit
perfectly to address the customer and provider interface, but I am not so
sure if we can use the term overlay for an provider to provider interface.

So the question is - will the term VPN apply in a more generic sense to
address both interfaces?

Regards
Snigdho

On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 2:22 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli <
daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com> wrote:

> I prefer using reference points instead of links.
> Access link and inter-domain links means tens of things in different
> contexts, while e.g. UNI means one single thing and clearly identifies th=
e
> context. BTW it's just a preference, I don't mind how we'll finally call =
it.
>
> There's one thing I would rather like to clarify and it's the relationshi=
p
> with VPNs. We have two options:
>
> 1) Is a VPN a particular case of the overlay model?
> or
> 2) Is the overlay model a particular case of VPN?
>
> I think this can help a lot with terminology. I've always assumed 1) but
> from what I read I tend to see that 2) has several supporters.
>
> BR
> Daniele
>
>
>
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Fatai Zhang [mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com]
> >Sent: gioved=A8=AC 20 dicembre 2012 2.44
> >To: Lou Berger; Igor Bryskin; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO);
> >Daniele Ceccarelli
> >Cc: CCAMP
> >Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
> >
> >Hi all,
> >
> >Support.
> >
> >People are more familiar with the existing things like "access
> >links" and "inter-domain links" (or E-NNI links).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Best Regards
> >
> >Fatai
> >
> >-----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE-----
> >=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.or=
g] =B4=FA=B1=ED
> >Lou Berger
> >=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA12=D4=C220=C8=D5 7:08
> >=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Igor Bryskin
> >=B3=AD=CB=CD: CCAMP
> >=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
> >
> >Igor,
> >
> >You said:
> >IB>> I like "access links" and "inter-domain links" better.
> >
> >This works for me.
> >
> >Lou
> >
> >On 12/19/2012 12:27 PM, Igor Bryskin wrote:
> >> Lou, please see my answers to your questions
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org]
> >On Behalf
> >> Of Daniele Ceccarelli
> >> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 5:57 AM
> >> To: Lou Berger
> >> Cc: CCAMP
> >> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
> >>
> >> Hi Lou,
> >>
> >> Plese find replies in line.
> >>
> >> BR
> >> Daniele
> >>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
> >>> Sent: luned=A8=AC 17 dicembre 2012 20.45
> >>> To: Daniele Ceccarelli
> >>> Cc: CCAMP
> >>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Daniele,
> >>>     Thanks for getting this on-list discussion going.  I have some
> >>> comments and questions:
> >>>
> >>> - So what's a "client layer network" in this context?  Perhaps you
> >>> mean OC or "(overlay) customer layer"?
> >>
> >> IB>> Client layer is where Overlay Network topology exists.
> >It includes:
> >> a) access links (connecting OCs to OEs)
> >> b) virtual links (connecting OE / OVNs (Overlay Virtual
> >Nodes) within
> >> a given server domain)
> >> c) inter-domain links (connecting OE to OE that belong to
> >neighboring
> >> server domains) All three categories exist in the same client layer
> >> and named from the same naming space
> >>
> >> Yes. The terms client layer and server layer are
> >reminescences to be corrected.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> - So what's a "server layer network" in this context?  Perhaps you
> >>> mean OE or "(overlay) provider layer"?
> >>
> >> IB>> It is the layer where the UNT (Underlay Network
> >Topology) exists
> >> IB>> (which may be in the same, lower or higher layer
> >network than of
> >> IB>> the ONT)
> >>
> >> Again correct
> >>
> >>>
> >>> - For OC, I'd thing referring back to a CE in the VPN context, and
> >>> likewise to a PE for an OE, is helpful context.
> >> IB>> agree
> >>
> >> In the case of the interface we generally define the ONI as
> >an overlay interface that in a particular case is called UNI.
> >I would apply the same method: those nodes are called Overlay
> >Customer and Overlay Edge and in the particular case of VPNs
> >they are the CE and PE respectively. What about that?
> >>
> >>>
> >>> - As you mention in the Appendix, (from the OC perspective)
> >there is
> >>> no difference between a virtual and real node
> >> IB>> Agree
> >>
> >>  (and presumably link as
> >>> well).  Given this and your comment in 8, that the ONI can take the
> >>> form of a UNI or include both signaling and routing (i.e., a
> >>> peer/I-NNI or
> >>> E-NNI) what value is there in introducing the ONI term?
> >Said another
> >>> way, there's no specific term for the interface between a CE and PE
> >>> in L3VPNs, so why do we need to introduce one in this context?
> >>
> >> We gave a name to the UNI, why don't giving to the ONI?
> >>
> >> IB>> As long as it allows for both or either signaling
> >and/or routing
> >> IB>> exchanges
> >>
> >>>
> >>> I think this same comment probably holds for the O-NNI
> >(e.g., what's
> >>> the name of the interface between providers which support L3VPN
> >>> handoffs?)...
> >>
> >> I would suggest giving a name to that interface also in
> >order to distinguish between an "internal" and an "external"
> >link when multiple overlay provider network domains are present.
> >>
> >> IB>> I like "access links" and "inter-domain links" better.
> >Note also that a "link" and "node" are TE topology concepts
> >and orthogonal to CP interfaces (which are Signaling/Routing
> >speakers). If you mean by "internal" and "external" links the
> >CP connectivity, than I agree with you.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Much thanks,
> >>> Lou
> >>>
> >>> On 12/17/2012 6:17 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
> >>>> Dear CCAMPers,
> >>>>
> >>>> In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the
> >>> Overlay model framework and related works took place. Some
> >>> discussions led to some sort of agreemet among a small group of
> >>> people, some others to a set a viable options, some others
> >to totally
> >>> open issues. I tried to summarize the output of such discussions
> >>> below so to progress the discussions into a single thread
> >on the WG ML.
> >>>>
> >>>> Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a
> >>> well shaped and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to provide the
> >>> basis for starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea (step 1)
> >>> instead of starting it from scratch (step 0).
> >>>>
> >>>> In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a
> >>> proposal of the overlay scenario.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>> Daniele
> >>>>
> >>>> + Disclaimer:
> >>>>  1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work
> >>> can be extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.
> >>>>
> >>>> + Terminology:
> >>>>
> >>>>  1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between
> >>> two virtual or real network elements in a client layer
> >network  that
> >>> is maintained/controlled in and by the server domain control plane
> >>> (and as such cannot transport any traffic/data and protected from
> >>> being
> >>> de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the data
> >plane (and
> >>> then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving
> >previously
> >>> advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.
> >>>>  2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or
> >>> more server network  domain nodes that are collectively represented
> >>> to the clients as a single node that exists in the client layer
> >>> network and is capable of terminating of access, inter-domain and
> >>> virtual links.
> >>>>  3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one
> >>> or more virtual or real server network domain nodes that
> >exist in the
> >>> client layer network and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual
> >>> links.
> >>>>  4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies
> >>> provided by each of server network domains, access and inter-domain
> >>> links.
> >>>>  5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that
> >>> link. It can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
> >>>>  6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208
> >>> teminology  but (i) receiving virtual topology from the
> >core network
> >>> and requesting the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting the
> >>> computation and establishment of a path accordingly to gien
> >>> constraints in the core network and receiving the parameters
> >>> characterizing such path. (ii) =3D=3D UNI.
> >>>>  7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but
> >>> able to deal with (i) and (ii) above.
> >>>>  8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for
> >>> signaling and routing messages exchange between Overlay and Core
> >>> network. Routing information consists on virtual topology
> >>> advertisement. When there is no routing adjacency across the
> >>> interface it is equivalent to the GMPLS UNI defined in 4208.
> >>> Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information
> >related to
> >>> path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected SRLG, path delay
> >>> etc, either passed from OE to OC via signaling after the LSP
> >>> establishment in the core network or from OC to OE to be
> >used as path
> >>> computation constraints, fall under the definition of
> >signaling info
> >>> and not routing info).
> >>>>  9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the
> >>> links between different core networks in the overlay model
> >>> environment, i.e. Between border OEs. Same features of the
> >ONI apply
> >>> to this interface. Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name
> >is needed?
> >>>>
> >>>> + Statements
> >>>>  1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build
> >>> an overlay
> >>>> topology for the client network domains  2. The overlay
> >>> topology is comprised of:
> >>>>     a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the
> >>> server network domains). They can be PSC or LSC.
> >>>>     b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server
> >>> network domains)
> >>>>     c) virtual topology provided by the server network
> >>> domains. Virtual Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) + Connectivity Matrix
> >>> (with a set of parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments, delay etc
> >>> for each entry) describing connectivity between access links and
> >>> virtual links.
> >>>>  3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy
> >of overlay
> >>>> topologies with overlay/underlay relationships  4. In the
> >context of
> >>>> overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships
> >>> are peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network
> >>> integration 5. The overlay model assumes one instance for
> >the client
> >>> network and a separate instance for the server network and
> >in the ONI
> >>> case the server network also surreptitiously participates in the
> >>> client network by injecting virtual topology information into it.
> >>>>  6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over
> >>> the ONI (it falls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency is in
> >>> place between OC and OE).
> >>>>
> >>>> + Open issues/questions
> >>>>
> >>>>  1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about
> >>> PCE and PCEP into the overlay framework context?
> >>>>  2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
> >>>>  3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?
> >>>>
> >>>> + Appendix:
> >>>> Some notes on the Virtual Node:
> >>>> 1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale
> >>> because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs
> >have the
> >>> same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs
> >>>> 2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is
> >>> by having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the
> >>> middle of the virtual topology
> >>>> 3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server
> >>> domain switches, because, generally speaking:
> >>>>   a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
> >>>>   b)Real switches are named from different naming space
> >>>>   c)real switches individually may not have sufficient
> >>> resources to terminate virtual links (while a group of real
> >switches
> >>> collectively will have)
> >>>>   d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual
> >>> node have better scalability qualities
> >>>> 4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real
> >>> node, you need to keep in mind that real server domain
> >switches are,
> >>> generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must expose their
> >>> connectivity matrices
> >>>> 5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that
> >>> could potentially go through a real server domain switch, the
> >>> latter's connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so that
> >>> the two services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail
> >>> if a single internal element shared by the services fails
> >>>> 6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be
> >>> addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking
> >>> switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no
> >difference
> >>> between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
> >>>> 7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected
> >>> to server network domain must be upgraded so that they could
> >>> understand the connectivity matrices advertised by the border nodes
> >>> describing connectivity constraints between access links
> >and virtual
> >>> links they terminate.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> >>>> DANIELE CECCARELLI
> >>>> System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro
> >>>>
> >>>> Via E.Melen, 77
> >>>> Genova, Italy
> >>>> Phone +390106002512
> >>>> Mobile +393346725750
> >>>> daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
> >>>> www.ericsson.com
> >>>>
> >>>> This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive
> >>> email on
> >>>> the basis of the term set out at www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> CCAMP mailing list
> >>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
> >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> >>>>
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> CCAMP mailing list
> >> CCAMP@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >_______________________________________________
> >CCAMP mailing list
> >CCAMP@ietf.org
> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> >
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
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>

--e89a8f2351a9c31bc204d14c9f4c
Content-Type: text/html; charset=GB2312
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Regarding the question about overlay and VPNs -<div><br></div><div>The curr=
ent discussions have been mostly around the customer and provider interface=
 and so the question that arises is whether the provider to provider interf=
ace is in the scope of this work. IMO - overlay would fit perfectly to addr=
ess the customer and provider interface, but I am not so sure if we can use=
 the term overlay for an provider to provider interface.</div>
<div><br></div><div>So the question is - will the term VPN apply in a more =
generic sense to address both interfaces?</div><div><br></div><div>Regards<=
/div><div>Snigdho<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at=
 2:22 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:daniel=
e.ceccarelli@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.co=
m</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I prefer using reference points instead of l=
inks.<br>
Access link and inter-domain links means tens of things in different contex=
ts, while e.g. UNI means one single thing and clearly identifies the contex=
t. BTW it&#39;s just a preference, I don&#39;t mind how we&#39;ll finally c=
all it.<br>

<br>
There&#39;s one thing I would rather like to clarify and it&#39;s the relat=
ionship with VPNs. We have two options:<br>
<br>
1) Is a VPN a particular case of the overlay model?<br>
or<br>
2) Is the overlay model a particular case of VPN?<br>
<br>
I think this can help a lot with terminology. I&#39;ve always assumed 1) bu=
t from what I read I tend to see that 2) has several supporters.<br>
<br>
BR<br>
Daniele<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt;-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;From: Fatai Zhang [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com">zhan=
gfatai@huawei.com</a>]<br>
&gt;Sent: gioved=A8=AC 20 dicembre 2012 2.44<br>
&gt;To: Lou Berger; Igor Bryskin; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO);<br>
&gt;Daniele Ceccarelli<br>
&gt;Cc: CCAMP<br>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">&gt;Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [CCAMP] Overlay mod=
el framework and context<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Hi all,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Support.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;People are more familiar with the existing things like &quot;access<br>
&gt;links&quot; and &quot;inter-domain links&quot; (or E-NNI links).<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Best Regards<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Fatai<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;-----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE-----<br>
&gt;=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: <a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bou=
nces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-b=
ounces@ietf.org</a>] =B4=FA=B1=ED<br>
&gt;Lou Berger<br>
&gt;=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA12=D4=C220=C8=D5 7:08<br>
&gt;=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Igor Bryskin<br>
&gt;=B3=AD=CB=CD: CCAMP<br>
&gt;=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Igor,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;You said:<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; I like &quot;access links&quot; and &quot;inter-domain links=
&quot; better.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;This works for me.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Lou<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;On 12/19/2012 12:27 PM, Igor Bryskin wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; Lou, please see my answers to your questions<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;&gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf=
.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ie=
tf.org</a>]<br>
&gt;On Behalf<br>
&gt;&gt; Of Daniele Ceccarelli<br>
&gt;&gt; Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 5:57 AM<br>
&gt;&gt; To: Lou Berger<br>
&gt;&gt; Cc: CCAMP<br>
&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Hi Lou,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Plese find replies in line.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; BR<br>
&gt;&gt; Daniele<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; From: Lou Berger [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net">l=
berger@labn.net</a>]<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Sent: luned=A8=AC 17 dicembre 2012 20.45<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; To: Daniele Ceccarelli<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Cc: CCAMP<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Daniele,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; Thanks for getting this on-list discussion going=
. &nbsp;I have some<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; comments and questions:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; - So what&#39;s a &quot;client layer network&quot; in this con=
text? &nbsp;Perhaps you<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; mean OC or &quot;(overlay) customer layer&quot;?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; IB&gt;&gt; Client layer is where Overlay Network topology exists.<=
br>
&gt;It includes:<br>
&gt;&gt; a) access links (connecting OCs to OEs)<br>
&gt;&gt; b) virtual links (connecting OE / OVNs (Overlay Virtual<br>
&gt;Nodes) within<br>
&gt;&gt; a given server domain)<br>
&gt;&gt; c) inter-domain links (connecting OE to OE that belong to<br>
&gt;neighboring<br>
&gt;&gt; server domains) All three categories exist in the same client laye=
r<br>
&gt;&gt; and named from the same naming space<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Yes. The terms client layer and server layer are<br>
&gt;reminescences to be corrected.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; - So what&#39;s a &quot;server layer network&quot; in this con=
text? &nbsp;Perhaps you<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; mean OE or &quot;(overlay) provider layer&quot;?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; IB&gt;&gt; It is the layer where the UNT (Underlay Network<br>
&gt;Topology) exists<br>
</div></div>&gt;&gt; IB&gt;&gt; (which may be in the same, lower or higher =
layer<br>
&gt;network than of<br>
&gt;&gt; IB&gt;&gt; the ONT)<br>
<div class=3D"im">&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Again correct<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; - For OC, I&#39;d thing referring back to a CE in the VPN cont=
ext, and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; likewise to a PE for an OE, is helpful context.<br>
&gt;&gt; IB&gt;&gt; agree<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; In the case of the interface we generally define the ONI as<br>
&gt;an overlay interface that in a particular case is called UNI.<br>
&gt;I would apply the same method: those nodes are called Overlay<br>
&gt;Customer and Overlay Edge and in the particular case of VPNs<br>
&gt;they are the CE and PE respectively. What about that?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; - As you mention in the Appendix, (from the OC perspective)<br=
>
&gt;there is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; no difference between a virtual and real node<br>
&gt;&gt; IB&gt;&gt; Agree<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;(and presumably link as<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; well). &nbsp;Given this and your comment in 8, that the ONI ca=
n take the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; form of a UNI or include both signaling and routing (i.e., a<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt; peer/I-NNI or<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; E-NNI) what value is there in introducing the ONI term?<br>
&gt;Said another<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; way, there&#39;s no specific term for the interface between a =
CE and PE<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; in L3VPNs, so why do we need to introduce one in this context?=
<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; We gave a name to the UNI, why don&#39;t giving to the ONI?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; IB&gt;&gt; As long as it allows for both or either signaling<br>
&gt;and/or routing<br>
</div>&gt;&gt; IB&gt;&gt; exchanges<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; I think this same comment probably holds for the O-NNI<br>
&gt;(e.g., what&#39;s<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; the name of the interface between providers which support L3VP=
N<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; handoffs?)...<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I would suggest giving a name to that interface also in<br>
&gt;order to distinguish between an &quot;internal&quot; and an &quot;exter=
nal&quot;<br>
&gt;link when multiple overlay provider network domains are present.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; IB&gt;&gt; I like &quot;access links&quot; and &quot;inter-domain =
links&quot; better.<br>
&gt;Note also that a &quot;link&quot; and &quot;node&quot; are TE topology =
concepts<br>
&gt;and orthogonal to CP interfaces (which are Signaling/Routing<br>
&gt;speakers). If you mean by &quot;internal&quot; and &quot;external&quot;=
 links the<br>
&gt;CP connectivity, than I agree with you.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Much thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Lou<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; On 12/17/2012 6:17 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Dear CCAMPers,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Overlay model framework and related works took place. Some<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; discussions led to some sort of agreemet among a small group o=
f<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; people, some others to a set a viable options, some others<br>
&gt;to totally<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; open issues. I tried to summarize the output of such discussio=
ns<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; below so to progress the discussions into a single thread<br>
&gt;on the WG ML.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; well shaped and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to provid=
e the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; basis for starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea (ste=
p 1)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; instead of starting it from scratch (step 0).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; proposal of the overlay scenario.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Daniele<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; + Disclaimer:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;1. Packet opto integration is often considered but t=
he work<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; can be extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; + Terminology:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path =
between<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; two virtual or real network elements in a client layer<br>
&gt;network &nbsp;that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; is maintained/controlled in and by the server domain control p=
lane<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; (and as such cannot transport any traffic/data and protected f=
rom<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; being<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the data<br>
&gt;plane (and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving<br>
&gt;previously<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;2. &nbsp;Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection =
of zero or<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; more server network &nbsp;domain nodes that are collectively r=
epresented<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; to the clients as a single node that exists in the client laye=
r<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; network and is capable of terminating of access, inter-domain =
and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; virtual links.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection=
 of one<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; or more virtual or real server network domain nodes that<br>
&gt;exist in the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; client layer network and are interconnected via 0 or more virt=
ual<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; links.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;4. Overlay topology: &nbsp;is a superset of virtual =
topologies<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; provided by each of server network domains, access and inter-d=
omain<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; links.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs o=
n that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; link. It can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in R=
FC4208<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; teminology &nbsp;but (i) receiving virtual topology from the<b=
r>
&gt;core network<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; and requesting the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting th=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; computation and establishment of a path accordingly to gien<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt; constraints in the core network and receiving the parameters<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt; characterizing such path. (ii) =3D=3D UNI.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC42=
08 but<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; able to deal with (i) and (ii) above.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowi=
ng for<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; signaling and routing messages exchange between Overlay and Co=
re<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; network. Routing information consists on virtual topology<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; advertisement. When there is no routing adjacency across the<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt; interface it is equivalent to the GMPLS UNI defined in 4208.<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information<br>
&gt;related to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected SRLG, path de=
lay<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; etc, either passed from OE to OC via signaling after the LSP<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt; establishment in the core network or from OC to OE to be<br>
&gt;used as path<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; computation constraints, fall under the definition of<br>
&gt;signaling info<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; and not routing info).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface =
on the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; links between different core networks in the overlay model<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; environment, i.e. Between border OEs. Same features of the<br>
&gt;ONI apply<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; to this interface. Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name<br>
&gt;is needed?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; + Statements<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to =
build<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; an overlay<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; topology for the client network domains &nbsp;2. The overl=
ay<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; topology is comprised of:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; a) access links (links connecting client NEs=
 to the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; server network domains). They can be PSC or LSC.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting=
 server<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; network domains)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; c) virtual topology provided by the server n=
etwork<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; domains. Virtual Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) + Connectivity Ma=
trix<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; (with a set of parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments, dela=
y etc<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; for each entry) describing connectivity between access links a=
nd<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; virtual links.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;3. In the context of overlay model we manage &nbsp;h=
ierarchy<br>
&gt;of overlay<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; topologies with overlay/underlay relationships &nbsp;4. In=
 the<br>
&gt;context of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; are peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; integration 5. The overlay model assumes one instance for<br>
&gt;the client<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; network and a separate instance for the server network and<br>
&gt;in the ONI<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; case the server network also surreptitiously participates in t=
he<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; client network by injecting virtual topology information into =
it.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provide=
d over<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; the ONI (it falls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency i=
s in<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; place between OC and OE).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; + Open issues/questions<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations a=
bout<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; PCE and PCEP into the overlay framework context?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;2. BGP-LS needs to be considered<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; + Appendix:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Some notes on the Virtual Node:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 1. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Virtual Link Model along, sadly, do=
es not scale<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs<br=
>
&gt;have the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; same issue, that&#39;s why people invented multi-segment PWs<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 2. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;The only way to avoid full-mesh of =
Virtual Links is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; by having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in =
the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; middle of the virtual topology<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 3. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;These intermediate nodes cannot be =
real server<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; domain switches, because, generally speaking:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp; a)Real switches belong to different layer network;<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp; b)Real switches are named from different naming spa=
ce<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp; c)real switches individually may not have sufficien=
t<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; resources to terminate virtual links (while a group of real<br=
>
&gt;switches<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; collectively will have)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp; d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single v=
irtual<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; node have better scalability qualities<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 4. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Even if you map a virtual node on a=
 single real<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; node, you need to keep in mind that real server domain<br>
&gt;switches are,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must expose =
their<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; connectivity matrices<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 5. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;If you want to compute SRLG-disjoin=
t paths that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; could potentially go through a real server domain switch, the<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; latter&#39;s connectivity matrix must expose &quot;internal&qu=
ot; SRLGs, so that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; the two services traversing the switch will not simultaneously=
 fail<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; if a single internal element shared by the services fails<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 6. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;If you walk through all cases that =
need to be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blo=
cking<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no<br>
&gt;difference<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; between a virtual node and real blocking real node.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 7. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Even in case of pure VL model, clie=
nt NEs connected<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; to server network domain must be upgraded so that they could<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt; understand the connectivity matrices advertised by the border =
nodes<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; describing connectivity constraints between access links<br>
&gt;and virtual<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; links they terminate.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; DANIELE CECCARELLI<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; System &amp; Technology - PDU Optical &amp; Metro<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Via E.Melen, 77<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Genova, Italy<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Phone +390106002512<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Mobile +393346725750<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com">daniele=
.ceccarelli@ericsson.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">www.=
ericsson.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; This Communication is Confidential. We only send and recei=
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&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; CCAMP mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org">CCAMP@ietf.org</a><br>
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Snigdho,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">We do consider multi-domain scenario whe=
re multiple server network domains are interconnected via inter-domain link=
s (which are no different from access links). Each such
 domain contributes to a single Overlay Network Topology (ONT) provided to =
a given set of clients by exposing its own virtual topology made of VNs and=
 VLs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Igor<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Snigdho =
Bardalai [mailto:sbardalai1@gmail.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 20, 2012 1:09 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Daniele Ceccarelli<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Fatai Zhang; Lou Berger; Igor Bryskin; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO);=
 CCAMP<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regarding the question about overlay and VPNs -<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The current discussions have been mostly around the =
customer and provider interface and so the question that arises is whether =
the provider to provider interface is in the scope of this work. IMO - over=
lay would fit perfectly to address
 the customer and provider interface, but I am not so sure if we can use th=
e term overlay for an provider to provider interface.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So the question is - will the term VPN apply in a mo=
re generic sense to address both interfaces?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Snigdho<o:p></o:p></p=
>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 2:22 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">da=
niele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I prefer using reference points instead of links.<br=
>
Access link and inter-domain links means tens of things in different contex=
ts, while e.g. UNI means one single thing and clearly identifies the contex=
t. BTW it's just a preference, I don't mind how we'll finally call it.<br>
<br>
There's one thing I would rather like to clarify and it's the relationship =
with VPNs. We have two options:<br>
<br>
1) Is a VPN a particular case of the overlay model?<br>
or<br>
2) Is the overlay model a particular case of VPN?<br>
<br>
I think this can help a lot with terminology. I've always assumed 1) but fr=
om what I read I tend to see that 2) has several supporters.<br>
<br>
BR<br>
Daniele<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt;-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;From: Fatai Zhang [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com">zhan=
gfatai@huawei.com</a>]<br>
&gt;Sent: gioved=A8=AC 20 dicembre 2012 2.44<br>
&gt;To: Lou Berger; Igor Bryskin; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO);<br>
&gt;Daniele Ceccarelli<br>
&gt;Cc: CCAMP<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;Subject: <span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=B4=F0=B8=B4</span=
>: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Hi all,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Support.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;People are more familiar with the existing things like &quot;access<br>
&gt;links&quot; and &quot;inter-domain links&quot; (or E-NNI links).<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Best Regards<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Fatai<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;-----<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE</span>-----<br>
&gt;<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB</span>: <a href=3D"mailto:ccamp=
-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:cca=
mp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=B4=FA=B1=ED</span><br>
&gt;Lou Berger<br>
&gt;<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4</span>: 2012<span lang=3D=
"ZH-CN">=C4=EA</span>12<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=D4=C2</span>20<span lang=3D"ZH=
-CN">=C8=D5</span> 7:08<br>
&gt;<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB</span>: Igor Bryskin<br>
&gt;<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=B3=AD=CB=CD</span>: CCAMP<br>
&gt;<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=D6=F7=CC=E2</span>: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model fra=
mework and context<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Igor,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;You said:<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; I like &quot;access links&quot; and &quot;inter-domain links=
&quot; better.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;This works for me.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Lou<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;On 12/19/2012 12:27 PM, Igor Bryskin wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; Lou, please see my answers to your questions<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;&gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf=
.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ie=
tf.org</a>]<br>
&gt;On Behalf<br>
&gt;&gt; Of Daniele Ceccarelli<br>
&gt;&gt; Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 5:57 AM<br>
&gt;&gt; To: Lou Berger<br>
&gt;&gt; Cc: CCAMP<br>
&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Hi Lou,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Plese find replies in line.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; BR<br>
&gt;&gt; Daniele<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; From: Lou Berger [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net">l=
berger@labn.net</a>]<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Sent: luned=A8=AC 17 dicembre 2012 20.45<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; To: Daniele Ceccarelli<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Cc: CCAMP<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Daniele,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; Thanks for getting this on-list discussion going=
. &nbsp;I have some<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; comments and questions:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; - So what's a &quot;client layer network&quot; in this context=
? &nbsp;Perhaps you<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; mean OC or &quot;(overlay) customer layer&quot;?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; IB&gt;&gt; Client layer is where Overlay Network topology exists.<=
br>
&gt;It includes:<br>
&gt;&gt; a) access links (connecting OCs to OEs)<br>
&gt;&gt; b) virtual links (connecting OE / OVNs (Overlay Virtual<br>
&gt;Nodes) within<br>
&gt;&gt; a given server domain)<br>
&gt;&gt; c) inter-domain links (connecting OE to OE that belong to<br>
&gt;neighboring<br>
&gt;&gt; server domains) All three categories exist in the same client laye=
r<br>
&gt;&gt; and named from the same naming space<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Yes. The terms client layer and server layer are<br>
&gt;reminescences to be corrected.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; - So what's a &quot;server layer network&quot; in this context=
? &nbsp;Perhaps you<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; mean OE or &quot;(overlay) provider layer&quot;?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; IB&gt;&gt; It is the layer where the UNT (Underlay Network<br>
&gt;Topology) exists<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&gt; IB&gt;&gt; (which may be in the same, lower=
 or higher layer<br>
&gt;network than of<br>
&gt;&gt; IB&gt;&gt; the ONT)<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Again correct<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; - For OC, I'd thing referring back to a CE in the VPN context,=
 and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; likewise to a PE for an OE, is helpful context.<br>
&gt;&gt; IB&gt;&gt; agree<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; In the case of the interface we generally define the ONI as<br>
&gt;an overlay interface that in a particular case is called UNI.<br>
&gt;I would apply the same method: those nodes are called Overlay<br>
&gt;Customer and Overlay Edge and in the particular case of VPNs<br>
&gt;they are the CE and PE respectively. What about that?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; - As you mention in the Appendix, (from the OC perspective)<br=
>
&gt;there is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; no difference between a virtual and real node<br>
&gt;&gt; IB&gt;&gt; Agree<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;(and presumably link as<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; well). &nbsp;Given this and your comment in 8, that the ONI ca=
n take the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; form of a UNI or include both signaling and routing (i.e., a<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt; peer/I-NNI or<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; E-NNI) what value is there in introducing the ONI term?<br>
&gt;Said another<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; way, there's no specific term for the interface between a CE a=
nd PE<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; in L3VPNs, so why do we need to introduce one in this context?=
<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; We gave a name to the UNI, why don't giving to the ONI?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; IB&gt;&gt; As long as it allows for both or either signaling<br>
&gt;and/or routing<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&gt; IB&gt;&gt; exchanges<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; I think this same comment probably holds for the O-NNI<br>
&gt;(e.g., what's<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; the name of the interface between providers which support L3VP=
N<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; handoffs?)...<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I would suggest giving a name to that interface also in<br>
&gt;order to distinguish between an &quot;internal&quot; and an &quot;exter=
nal&quot;<br>
&gt;link when multiple overlay provider network domains are present.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; IB&gt;&gt; I like &quot;access links&quot; and &quot;inter-domain =
links&quot; better.<br>
&gt;Note also that a &quot;link&quot; and &quot;node&quot; are TE topology =
concepts<br>
&gt;and orthogonal to CP interfaces (which are Signaling/Routing<br>
&gt;speakers). If you mean by &quot;internal&quot; and &quot;external&quot;=
 links the<br>
&gt;CP connectivity, than I agree with you.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Much thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Lou<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; On 12/17/2012 6:17 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Dear CCAMPers,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Overlay model framework and related works took place. Some<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; discussions led to some sort of agreemet among a small group o=
f<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; people, some others to a set a viable options, some others<br>
&gt;to totally<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; open issues. I tried to summarize the output of such discussio=
ns<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; below so to progress the discussions into a single thread<br>
&gt;on the WG ML.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; well shaped and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to provid=
e the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; basis for starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea (ste=
p 1)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; instead of starting it from scratch (step 0).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; proposal of the overlay scenario.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Daniele<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &#43; Disclaimer:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;1. Packet opto integration is often considered but t=
he work<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; can be extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &#43; Terminology:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path =
between<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; two virtual or real network elements in a client layer<br>
&gt;network &nbsp;that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; is maintained/controlled in and by the server domain control p=
lane<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; (and as such cannot transport any traffic/data and protected f=
rom<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; being<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the data<br>
&gt;plane (and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving<br>
&gt;previously<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;2. &nbsp;Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection =
of zero or<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; more server network &nbsp;domain nodes that are collectively r=
epresented<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; to the clients as a single node that exists in the client laye=
r<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; network and is capable of terminating of access, inter-domain =
and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; virtual links.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection=
 of one<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; or more virtual or real server network domain nodes that<br>
&gt;exist in the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; client layer network and are interconnected via 0 or more virt=
ual<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; links.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;4. Overlay topology: &nbsp;is a superset of virtual =
topologies<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; provided by each of server network domains, access and inter-d=
omain<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; links.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs o=
n that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; link. It can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in R=
FC4208<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; teminology &nbsp;but (i) receiving virtual topology from the<b=
r>
&gt;core network<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; and requesting the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting th=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; computation and establishment of a path accordingly to gien<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt; constraints in the core network and receiving the parameters<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt; characterizing such path. (ii) =3D=3D UNI.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC42=
08 but<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; able to deal with (i) and (ii) above.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowi=
ng for<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; signaling and routing messages exchange between Overlay and Co=
re<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; network. Routing information consists on virtual topology<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; advertisement. When there is no routing adjacency across the<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt; interface it is equivalent to the GMPLS UNI defined in 4208.<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information<br>
&gt;related to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected SRLG, path de=
lay<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; etc, either passed from OE to OC via signaling after the LSP<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt; establishment in the core network or from OC to OE to be<br>
&gt;used as path<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; computation constraints, fall under the definition of<br>
&gt;signaling info<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; and not routing info).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface =
on the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; links between different core networks in the overlay model<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; environment, i.e. Between border OEs. Same features of the<br>
&gt;ONI apply<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; to this interface. Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name<br>
&gt;is needed?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &#43; Statements<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to =
build<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; an overlay<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; topology for the client network domains &nbsp;2. The overl=
ay<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; topology is comprised of:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; a) access links (links connecting client NEs=
 to the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; server network domains). They can be PSC or LSC.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting=
 server<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; network domains)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; c) virtual topology provided by the server n=
etwork<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; domains. Virtual Links &#43; Virtual Nodes (TBD) &#43; Connect=
ivity Matrix<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; (with a set of parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments, dela=
y etc<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; for each entry) describing connectivity between access links a=
nd<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; virtual links.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;3. In the context of overlay model we manage &nbsp;h=
ierarchy<br>
&gt;of overlay<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; topologies with overlay/underlay relationships &nbsp;4. In=
 the<br>
&gt;context of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; are peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; integration 5. The overlay model assumes one instance for<br>
&gt;the client<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; network and a separate instance for the server network and<br>
&gt;in the ONI<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; case the server network also surreptitiously participates in t=
he<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; client network by injecting virtual topology information into =
it.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provide=
d over<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; the ONI (it falls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency i=
s in<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; place between OC and OE).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &#43; Open issues/questions<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations a=
bout<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; PCE and PCEP into the overlay framework context?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;2. BGP-LS needs to be considered<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &#43; Appendix:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Some notes on the Virtual Node:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 1. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Virtual Link Model along, sadly, do=
es not scale<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs<br=
>
&gt;have the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 2. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;The only way to avoid full-mesh of =
Virtual Links is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; by having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in =
the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; middle of the virtual topology<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 3. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;These intermediate nodes cannot be =
real server<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; domain switches, because, generally speaking:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp; a)Real switches belong to different layer network;<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp; b)Real switches are named from different naming spa=
ce<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp; c)real switches individually may not have sufficien=
t<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; resources to terminate virtual links (while a group of real<br=
>
&gt;switches<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; collectively will have)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp; d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single v=
irtual<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; node have better scalability qualities<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 4. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Even if you map a virtual node on a=
 single real<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; node, you need to keep in mind that real server domain<br>
&gt;switches are,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must expose =
their<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; connectivity matrices<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 5. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;If you want to compute SRLG-disjoin=
t paths that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; could potentially go through a real server domain switch, the<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; latter's connectivity matrix must expose &quot;internal&quot; =
SRLGs, so that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; the two services traversing the switch will not simultaneously=
 fail<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; if a single internal element shared by the services fails<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 6. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;If you walk through all cases that =
need to be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blo=
cking<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no<br>
&gt;difference<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; between a virtual node and real blocking real node.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 7. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Even in case of pure VL model, clie=
nt NEs connected<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; to server network domain must be upgraded so that they could<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt; understand the connectivity matrices advertised by the border =
nodes<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; describing connectivity constraints between access links<br>
&gt;and virtual<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; links they terminate.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; DANIELE CECCARELLI<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; System &amp; Technology - PDU Optical &amp; Metro<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Via E.Melen, 77<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Genova, Italy<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Phone &#43;390106002512<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Mobile &#43;393346725750<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com">daniele=
.ceccarelli@ericsson.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">www.=
ericsson.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; This Communication is Confidential. We only send and recei=
ve<br>
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www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
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&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; CCAMP mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org">CCAMP@ietf.org</a><br>
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>, "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)" <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>, "Fatai	Zhang" <zhangfatai@huawei.com>, Gert Grammel <ggrammel@juniper.net>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] R: R:  Overlay model framework and context
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] R: R:  Overlay model framework and context
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Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] R: R:  Overlay model framework and context
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] R: R:  Overlay model framework and context
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>, "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)" <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>, "Fatai	Zhang" <zhangfatai@huawei.com>, Gert Grammel <ggrammel@juniper.net>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] R: R:  Overlay model framework and context
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Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 19:36:32 +0000
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] R: R:  Overlay model framework and context
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] R: R:  Overlay model framework and context
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>, "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)" <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>, "Fatai	Zhang" <zhangfatai@huawei.com>, Gert Grammel <ggrammel@juniper.net>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] R: R:  Overlay model framework and context
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Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 20:12:44 +0000
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] R: R:  Overlay model framework and context
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From: Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>
To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>, "BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO)" <sergio.belotti@alcatel-lucent.com>, "Fatai	Zhang" <zhangfatai@huawei.com>, Gert Grammel <ggrammel@juniper.net>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] R: R:  Overlay model framework and context
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Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 20:17:29 +0000
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] R: R:  Overlay model framework and context
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References: <4A1562797D64E44993C5CBF38CF1BE48042C3B@ESESSMB301.ericsson.se> <50CF764E.603@labn.net> <4A1562797D64E44993C5CBF38CF1BE48045007@ESESSMB301.ericsson.se> <CDAC6F6F5401B245A2C68D0CF8AFDF0A191012D6@atl-srv-mail10.atl.advaoptical.com> <50D248B8.1090506@labn.net> <F82A4B6D50F9464B8EBA55651F541CF835841B4C@SZXEML552-MBX.china.huawei.com> <4A1562797D64E44993C5CBF38CF1BE480456A7@ESESSMB301.ericsson.se> <CAD-y1-cLZgS4tGrpB-E0K=LyQvYv1JsKhYUa1gs0ctyQBhSuTQ@mail.gmail.com> <CDAC6F6F5401B245A2C68D0CF8AFDF0A19101655@atl-srv-mail10.atl.advaoptical.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 13:04:50 -0800
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From: Snigdho Bardalai <sbardalai1@gmail.com>
To: Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Igor

I agree that we should include the multiple network domain scenario. The
question is how would the inter-domain link or provider to provider
interface be any different from cases where there is no overlay customer
network? If there is no different then why use the term overlay in the
terminology (e.g. OC, OE or ONI etc,)?

Regards
Snigdho

On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 10:21 AM, Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>wr=
ote:

>  Snigdho,****
>
> ** **
>
> We do consider multi-domain scenario where multiple server network domain=
s
> are interconnected via inter-domain links (which are no different from
> access links). Each such domain contributes to a single Overlay Network
> Topology (ONT) provided to a given set of clients by exposing its own
> virtual topology made of VNs and VLs.****
>
> ** **
>
> Igor****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Snigdho Bardalai [mailto:sbardalai1@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 20, 2012 1:09 PM
> *To:* Daniele Ceccarelli
> *Cc:* Fatai Zhang; Lou Berger; Igor Bryskin; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO);
> CCAMP
>
> *Subject:* Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context****
>
> ** **
>
> Regarding the question about overlay and VPNs -****
>
> ** **
>
> The current discussions have been mostly around the customer and provider
> interface and so the question that arises is whether the provider to
> provider interface is in the scope of this work. IMO - overlay would fit
> perfectly to address the customer and provider interface, but I am not so
> sure if we can use the term overlay for an provider to provider interface=
.
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> So the question is - will the term VPN apply in a more generic sense to
> address both interfaces?****
>
> ** **
>
> Regards****
>
> Snigdho****
>
> On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 2:22 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli <
> daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com> wrote:****
>
> I prefer using reference points instead of links.
> Access link and inter-domain links means tens of things in different
> contexts, while e.g. UNI means one single thing and clearly identifies th=
e
> context. BTW it's just a preference, I don't mind how we'll finally call =
it.
>
> There's one thing I would rather like to clarify and it's the relationshi=
p
> with VPNs. We have two options:
>
> 1) Is a VPN a particular case of the overlay model?
> or
> 2) Is the overlay model a particular case of VPN?
>
> I think this can help a lot with terminology. I've always assumed 1) but
> from what I read I tend to see that 2) has several supporters.
>
> BR
> Daniele****
>
>
>
>
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Fatai Zhang [mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com]
> >Sent: gioved=A8=AC 20 dicembre 2012 2.44
> >To: Lou Berger; Igor Bryskin; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO);
> >Daniele Ceccarelli
> >Cc: CCAMP****
>
> >Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
> >
> >Hi all,
> >
> >Support.
> >
> >People are more familiar with the existing things like "access
> >links" and "inter-domain links" (or E-NNI links).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Best Regards
> >
> >Fatai
> >
> >-----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE-----
> >=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.or=
g] =B4=FA=B1=ED
> >Lou Berger
> >=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2012=C4=EA12=D4=C220=C8=D5 7:08
> >=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Igor Bryskin
> >=B3=AD=CB=CD: CCAMP
> >=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
> >
> >Igor,
> >
> >You said:
> >IB>> I like "access links" and "inter-domain links" better.
> >
> >This works for me.
> >
> >Lou
> >
> >On 12/19/2012 12:27 PM, Igor Bryskin wrote:
> >> Lou, please see my answers to your questions
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org]
> >On Behalf
> >> Of Daniele Ceccarelli
> >> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 5:57 AM
> >> To: Lou Berger
> >> Cc: CCAMP
> >> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
> >>
> >> Hi Lou,
> >>
> >> Plese find replies in line.
> >>
> >> BR
> >> Daniele
> >>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
> >>> Sent: luned=A8=AC 17 dicembre 2012 20.45
> >>> To: Daniele Ceccarelli
> >>> Cc: CCAMP
> >>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Daniele,
> >>>     Thanks for getting this on-list discussion going.  I have some
> >>> comments and questions:
> >>>
> >>> - So what's a "client layer network" in this context?  Perhaps you
> >>> mean OC or "(overlay) customer layer"?
> >>
> >> IB>> Client layer is where Overlay Network topology exists.
> >It includes:
> >> a) access links (connecting OCs to OEs)
> >> b) virtual links (connecting OE / OVNs (Overlay Virtual
> >Nodes) within
> >> a given server domain)
> >> c) inter-domain links (connecting OE to OE that belong to
> >neighboring
> >> server domains) All three categories exist in the same client layer
> >> and named from the same naming space
> >>
> >> Yes. The terms client layer and server layer are
> >reminescences to be corrected.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> - So what's a "server layer network" in this context?  Perhaps you
> >>> mean OE or "(overlay) provider layer"?
> >>
> >> IB>> It is the layer where the UNT (Underlay Network
> >Topology) exists****
>
> >> IB>> (which may be in the same, lower or higher layer
> >network than of
> >> IB>> the ONT)****
>
> >>
> >> Again correct
> >>
> >>>
> >>> - For OC, I'd thing referring back to a CE in the VPN context, and
> >>> likewise to a PE for an OE, is helpful context.
> >> IB>> agree
> >>
> >> In the case of the interface we generally define the ONI as
> >an overlay interface that in a particular case is called UNI.
> >I would apply the same method: those nodes are called Overlay
> >Customer and Overlay Edge and in the particular case of VPNs
> >they are the CE and PE respectively. What about that?
> >>
> >>>
> >>> - As you mention in the Appendix, (from the OC perspective)
> >there is
> >>> no difference between a virtual and real node
> >> IB>> Agree
> >>
> >>  (and presumably link as
> >>> well).  Given this and your comment in 8, that the ONI can take the
> >>> form of a UNI or include both signaling and routing (i.e., a
> >>> peer/I-NNI or
> >>> E-NNI) what value is there in introducing the ONI term?
> >Said another
> >>> way, there's no specific term for the interface between a CE and PE
> >>> in L3VPNs, so why do we need to introduce one in this context?
> >>
> >> We gave a name to the UNI, why don't giving to the ONI?
> >>
> >> IB>> As long as it allows for both or either signaling
> >and/or routing****
>
> >> IB>> exchanges****
>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> I think this same comment probably holds for the O-NNI
> >(e.g., what's
> >>> the name of the interface between providers which support L3VPN
> >>> handoffs?)...
> >>
> >> I would suggest giving a name to that interface also in
> >order to distinguish between an "internal" and an "external"
> >link when multiple overlay provider network domains are present.
> >>
> >> IB>> I like "access links" and "inter-domain links" better.
> >Note also that a "link" and "node" are TE topology concepts
> >and orthogonal to CP interfaces (which are Signaling/Routing
> >speakers). If you mean by "internal" and "external" links the
> >CP connectivity, than I agree with you.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Much thanks,
> >>> Lou
> >>>
> >>> On 12/17/2012 6:17 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
> >>>> Dear CCAMPers,
> >>>>
> >>>> In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the
> >>> Overlay model framework and related works took place. Some
> >>> discussions led to some sort of agreemet among a small group of
> >>> people, some others to a set a viable options, some others
> >to totally
> >>> open issues. I tried to summarize the output of such discussions
> >>> below so to progress the discussions into a single thread
> >on the WG ML.
> >>>>
> >>>> Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a
> >>> well shaped and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to provide the
> >>> basis for starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea (step 1)
> >>> instead of starting it from scratch (step 0).
> >>>>
> >>>> In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a
> >>> proposal of the overlay scenario.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>> Daniele
> >>>>
> >>>> + Disclaimer:
> >>>>  1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work
> >>> can be extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.
> >>>>
> >>>> + Terminology:
> >>>>
> >>>>  1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between
> >>> two virtual or real network elements in a client layer
> >network  that
> >>> is maintained/controlled in and by the server domain control plane
> >>> (and as such cannot transport any traffic/data and protected from
> >>> being
> >>> de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the data
> >plane (and
> >>> then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving
> >previously
> >>> advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.
> >>>>  2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or
> >>> more server network  domain nodes that are collectively represented
> >>> to the clients as a single node that exists in the client layer
> >>> network and is capable of terminating of access, inter-domain and
> >>> virtual links.
> >>>>  3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one
> >>> or more virtual or real server network domain nodes that
> >exist in the
> >>> client layer network and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual
> >>> links.
> >>>>  4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies
> >>> provided by each of server network domains, access and inter-domain
> >>> links.
> >>>>  5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that
> >>> link. It can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
> >>>>  6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208
> >>> teminology  but (i) receiving virtual topology from the
> >core network
> >>> and requesting the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting the
> >>> computation and establishment of a path accordingly to gien
> >>> constraints in the core network and receiving the parameters
> >>> characterizing such path. (ii) =3D=3D UNI.
> >>>>  7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but
> >>> able to deal with (i) and (ii) above.
> >>>>  8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for
> >>> signaling and routing messages exchange between Overlay and Core
> >>> network. Routing information consists on virtual topology
> >>> advertisement. When there is no routing adjacency across the
> >>> interface it is equivalent to the GMPLS UNI defined in 4208.
> >>> Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information
> >related to
> >>> path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected SRLG, path delay
> >>> etc, either passed from OE to OC via signaling after the LSP
> >>> establishment in the core network or from OC to OE to be
> >used as path
> >>> computation constraints, fall under the definition of
> >signaling info
> >>> and not routing info).
> >>>>  9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the
> >>> links between different core networks in the overlay model
> >>> environment, i.e. Between border OEs. Same features of the
> >ONI apply
> >>> to this interface. Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name
> >is needed?
> >>>>
> >>>> + Statements
> >>>>  1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build
> >>> an overlay
> >>>> topology for the client network domains  2. The overlay
> >>> topology is comprised of:
> >>>>     a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the
> >>> server network domains). They can be PSC or LSC.
> >>>>     b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server
> >>> network domains)
> >>>>     c) virtual topology provided by the server network
> >>> domains. Virtual Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) + Connectivity Matrix
> >>> (with a set of parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments, delay etc
> >>> for each entry) describing connectivity between access links and
> >>> virtual links.
> >>>>  3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy
> >of overlay
> >>>> topologies with overlay/underlay relationships  4. In the
> >context of
> >>>> overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships
> >>> are peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network
> >>> integration 5. The overlay model assumes one instance for
> >the client
> >>> network and a separate instance for the server network and
> >in the ONI
> >>> case the server network also surreptitiously participates in the
> >>> client network by injecting virtual topology information into it.
> >>>>  6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over
> >>> the ONI (it falls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency is in
> >>> place between OC and OE).
> >>>>
> >>>> + Open issues/questions
> >>>>
> >>>>  1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about
> >>> PCE and PCEP into the overlay framework context?
> >>>>  2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
> >>>>  3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?
> >>>>
> >>>> + Appendix:
> >>>> Some notes on the Virtual Node:
> >>>> 1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale
> >>> because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs
> >have the
> >>> same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs
> >>>> 2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is
> >>> by having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the
> >>> middle of the virtual topology
> >>>> 3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server
> >>> domain switches, because, generally speaking:
> >>>>   a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
> >>>>   b)Real switches are named from different naming space
> >>>>   c)real switches individually may not have sufficient
> >>> resources to terminate virtual links (while a group of real
> >switches
> >>> collectively will have)
> >>>>   d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual
> >>> node have better scalability qualities
> >>>> 4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real
> >>> node, you need to keep in mind that real server domain
> >switches are,
> >>> generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must expose their
> >>> connectivity matrices
> >>>> 5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that
> >>> could potentially go through a real server domain switch, the
> >>> latter's connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so that
> >>> the two services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail
> >>> if a single internal element shared by the services fails
> >>>> 6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be
> >>> addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking
> >>> switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no
> >difference
> >>> between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
> >>>> 7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected
> >>> to server network domain must be upgraded so that they could
> >>> understand the connectivity matrices advertised by the border nodes
> >>> describing connectivity constraints between access links
> >and virtual
> >>> links they terminate.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> >>>> DANIELE CECCARELLI
> >>>> System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro
> >>>>
> >>>> Via E.Melen, 77
> >>>> Genova, Italy
> >>>> Phone +390106002512
> >>>> Mobile +393346725750
> >>>> daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
> >>>> www.ericsson.com
> >>>>
> >>>> This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive
> >>> email on
> >>>> the basis of the term set out at www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> CCAMP mailing list
> >>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
> >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> >>>>
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> CCAMP mailing list
> >> CCAMP@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >_______________________________________________
> >CCAMP mailing list
> >CCAMP@ietf.org
> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> >
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp****
>
> ** **
>

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Igor<div><br></div><div>I agree that we should include the multiple network=
 domain scenario. The question is how would the inter-domain link or provid=
er to provider interface be any different from cases where there is no over=
lay customer network? If there is no different then why use the term overla=
y in the terminology (e.g. OC, OE or ONI etc,)?</div>
<div><br></div><div>Regards</div><div>Snigdho</div><div><br><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote">On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 10:21 AM, Igor Bryskin <span dir=3D"ltr=
">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com" target=3D"_blank">IBryski=
n@advaoptical.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Snigdho,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">We do consider multi-domain scenario whe=
re multiple server network domains are interconnected via inter-domain link=
s (which are no different from access links). Each such
 domain contributes to a single Overlay Network Topology (ONT) provided to =
a given set of clients by exposing its own virtual topology made of VNs and=
 VLs.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Igor<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Snigdho =
Bardalai [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:sbardalai1@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">=
sbardalai1@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 20, 2012 1:09 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Daniele Ceccarelli<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Fatai Zhang; Lou Berger; Igor Bryskin; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO);=
 CCAMP</span></p><div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<u></u><u></=
u></div></div><p></p><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regarding the question about overlay and VPNs -<u></=
u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The current discussions have been mostly around the =
customer and provider interface and so the question that arises is whether =
the provider to provider interface is in the scope of this work. IMO - over=
lay would fit perfectly to address
 the customer and provider interface, but I am not so sure if we can use th=
e term overlay for an provider to provider interface.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So the question is - will the term VPN apply in a mo=
re generic sense to address both interfaces?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Snigdho<u></u><u></u>=
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 2:22 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">da=
niele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I prefer using reference points instead of links.<br=
>
Access link and inter-domain links means tens of things in different contex=
ts, while e.g. UNI means one single thing and clearly identifies the contex=
t. BTW it&#39;s just a preference, I don&#39;t mind how we&#39;ll finally c=
all it.<br>

<br>
There&#39;s one thing I would rather like to clarify and it&#39;s the relat=
ionship with VPNs. We have two options:<br>
<br>
1) Is a VPN a particular case of the overlay model?<br>
or<br>
2) Is the overlay model a particular case of VPN?<br>
<br>
I think this can help a lot with terminology. I&#39;ve always assumed 1) bu=
t from what I read I tend to see that 2) has several supporters.<br>
<br>
BR<br>
Daniele<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt;-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;From: Fatai Zhang [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">zhangfatai@huawei.com</a>]<br>
&gt;Sent: gioved=C3=AC 20 dicembre 2012 2.44<br>
&gt;To: Lou Berger; Igor Bryskin; BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO);<br>
&gt;Daniele Ceccarelli<br>
&gt;Cc: CCAMP<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;Subject: <span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D=
</span>: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Hi all,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Support.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;People are more familiar with the existing things like &quot;access<br>
&gt;links&quot; and &quot;inter-domain links&quot; (or E-NNI links).<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Best Regards<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Fatai<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;-----<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6</span>--=
---<br>
&gt;<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA</span>: <a href=3D"mai=
lto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a> [m=
ailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ccamp-bou=
nces@ietf.org</a>]
<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8</span><br>
&gt;Lou Berger<br>
&gt;<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4</span>: 2012<=
span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=E5=B9=B4</span>12<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=E6=9C=88</span>=
20<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=E6=97=A5</span> 7:08<br>
&gt;<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA</span>: Igor Bryskin<b=
r>
&gt;<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81</span>: CCAMP<br>
&gt;<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98</span>: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay mod=
el framework and context<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Igor,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;You said:<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; I like &quot;access links&quot; and &quot;inter-domain links=
&quot; better.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;This works for me.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Lou<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;On 12/19/2012 12:27 PM, Igor Bryskin wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; Lou, please see my answers to your questions<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;&gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org=
" target=3D"_blank">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a>]<br>
&gt;On Behalf<br>
&gt;&gt; Of Daniele Ceccarelli<br>
&gt;&gt; Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 5:57 AM<br>
&gt;&gt; To: Lou Berger<br>
&gt;&gt; Cc: CCAMP<br>
&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Hi Lou,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Plese find replies in line.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; BR<br>
&gt;&gt; Daniele<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; From: Lou Berger [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net" t=
arget=3D"_blank">lberger@labn.net</a>]<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Sent: luned=C3=AC 17 dicembre 2012 20.45<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; To: Daniele Ceccarelli<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Cc: CCAMP<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Daniele,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks for getting this on-list discussion going=
. =C2=A0I have some<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; comments and questions:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; - So what&#39;s a &quot;client layer network&quot; in this con=
text? =C2=A0Perhaps you<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; mean OC or &quot;(overlay) customer layer&quot;?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; IB&gt;&gt; Client layer is where Overlay Network topology exists.<=
br>
&gt;It includes:<br>
&gt;&gt; a) access links (connecting OCs to OEs)<br>
&gt;&gt; b) virtual links (connecting OE / OVNs (Overlay Virtual<br>
&gt;Nodes) within<br>
&gt;&gt; a given server domain)<br>
&gt;&gt; c) inter-domain links (connecting OE to OE that belong to<br>
&gt;neighboring<br>
&gt;&gt; server domains) All three categories exist in the same client laye=
r<br>
&gt;&gt; and named from the same naming space<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Yes. The terms client layer and server layer are<br>
&gt;reminescences to be corrected.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; - So what&#39;s a &quot;server layer network&quot; in this con=
text? =C2=A0Perhaps you<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; mean OE or &quot;(overlay) provider layer&quot;?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; IB&gt;&gt; It is the layer where the UNT (Underlay Network<br>
&gt;Topology) exists<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&gt; IB&gt;&gt; (which may be in the same, lower=
 or higher layer<br>
&gt;network than of<br>
&gt;&gt; IB&gt;&gt; the ONT)<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Again correct<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; - For OC, I&#39;d thing referring back to a CE in the VPN cont=
ext, and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; likewise to a PE for an OE, is helpful context.<br>
&gt;&gt; IB&gt;&gt; agree<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; In the case of the interface we generally define the ONI as<br>
&gt;an overlay interface that in a particular case is called UNI.<br>
&gt;I would apply the same method: those nodes are called Overlay<br>
&gt;Customer and Overlay Edge and in the particular case of VPNs<br>
&gt;they are the CE and PE respectively. What about that?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; - As you mention in the Appendix, (from the OC perspective)<br=
>
&gt;there is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; no difference between a virtual and real node<br>
&gt;&gt; IB&gt;&gt; Agree<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; =C2=A0(and presumably link as<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; well). =C2=A0Given this and your comment in 8, that the ONI ca=
n take the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; form of a UNI or include both signaling and routing (i.e., a<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt; peer/I-NNI or<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; E-NNI) what value is there in introducing the ONI term?<br>
&gt;Said another<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; way, there&#39;s no specific term for the interface between a =
CE and PE<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; in L3VPNs, so why do we need to introduce one in this context?=
<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; We gave a name to the UNI, why don&#39;t giving to the ONI?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; IB&gt;&gt; As long as it allows for both or either signaling<br>
&gt;and/or routing<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&gt; IB&gt;&gt; exchanges<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; I think this same comment probably holds for the O-NNI<br>
&gt;(e.g., what&#39;s<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; the name of the interface between providers which support L3VP=
N<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; handoffs?)...<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I would suggest giving a name to that interface also in<br>
&gt;order to distinguish between an &quot;internal&quot; and an &quot;exter=
nal&quot;<br>
&gt;link when multiple overlay provider network domains are present.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; IB&gt;&gt; I like &quot;access links&quot; and &quot;inter-domain =
links&quot; better.<br>
&gt;Note also that a &quot;link&quot; and &quot;node&quot; are TE topology =
concepts<br>
&gt;and orthogonal to CP interfaces (which are Signaling/Routing<br>
&gt;speakers). If you mean by &quot;internal&quot; and &quot;external&quot;=
 links the<br>
&gt;CP connectivity, than I agree with you.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Much thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Lou<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; On 12/17/2012 6:17 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Dear CCAMPers,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Overlay model framework and related works took place. Some<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; discussions led to some sort of agreemet among a small group o=
f<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; people, some others to a set a viable options, some others<br>
&gt;to totally<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; open issues. I tried to summarize the output of such discussio=
ns<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; below so to progress the discussions into a single thread<br>
&gt;on the WG ML.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; well shaped and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to provid=
e the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; basis for starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea (ste=
p 1)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; instead of starting it from scratch (step 0).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; proposal of the overlay scenario.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Daniele<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; + Disclaimer:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A01. Packet opto integration is often considered but t=
he work<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; can be extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; + Terminology:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A01. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path =
between<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; two virtual or real network elements in a client layer<br>
&gt;network =C2=A0that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; is maintained/controlled in and by the server domain control p=
lane<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; (and as such cannot transport any traffic/data and protected f=
rom<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; being<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the data<br>
&gt;plane (and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving<br>
&gt;previously<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A02. =C2=A0Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection =
of zero or<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; more server network =C2=A0domain nodes that are collectively r=
epresented<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; to the clients as a single node that exists in the client laye=
r<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; network and is capable of terminating of access, inter-domain =
and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; virtual links.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A03.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection=
 of one<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; or more virtual or real server network domain nodes that<br>
&gt;exist in the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; client layer network and are interconnected via 0 or more virt=
ual<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; links.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A04. Overlay topology: =C2=A0is a superset of virtual =
topologies<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; provided by each of server network domains, access and inter-d=
omain<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; links.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A05. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs o=
n that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; link. It can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A06. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in R=
FC4208<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; teminology =C2=A0but (i) receiving virtual topology from the<b=
r>
&gt;core network<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; and requesting the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting th=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; computation and establishment of a path accordingly to gien<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt; constraints in the core network and receiving the parameters<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt; characterizing such path. (ii) =3D=3D UNI.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A07. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC42=
08 but<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; able to deal with (i) and (ii) above.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A08. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowi=
ng for<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; signaling and routing messages exchange between Overlay and Co=
re<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; network. Routing information consists on virtual topology<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; advertisement. When there is no routing adjacency across the<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt; interface it is equivalent to the GMPLS UNI defined in 4208.<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information<br>
&gt;related to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected SRLG, path de=
lay<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; etc, either passed from OE to OC via signaling after the LSP<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt; establishment in the core network or from OC to OE to be<br>
&gt;used as path<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; computation constraints, fall under the definition of<br>
&gt;signaling info<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; and not routing info).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A09. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface =
on the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; links between different core networks in the overlay model<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; environment, i.e. Between border OEs. Same features of the<br>
&gt;ONI apply<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; to this interface. Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name<br>
&gt;is needed?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; + Statements<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A01. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to =
build<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; an overlay<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; topology for the client network domains =C2=A02. The overl=
ay<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; topology is comprised of:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 a) access links (links connecting client NEs=
 to the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; server network domains). They can be PSC or LSC.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting=
 server<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; network domains)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 c) virtual topology provided by the server n=
etwork<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; domains. Virtual Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) + Connectivity Ma=
trix<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; (with a set of parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments, dela=
y etc<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; for each entry) describing connectivity between access links a=
nd<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; virtual links.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A03. In the context of overlay model we manage =C2=A0h=
ierarchy<br>
&gt;of overlay<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; topologies with overlay/underlay relationships =C2=A04. In=
 the<br>
&gt;context of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; are peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; integration 5. The overlay model assumes one instance for<br>
&gt;the client<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; network and a separate instance for the server network and<br>
&gt;in the ONI<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; case the server network also surreptitiously participates in t=
he<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; client network by injecting virtual topology information into =
it.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A06. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provide=
d over<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; the ONI (it falls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency i=
s in<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; place between OC and OE).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; + Open issues/questions<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A01. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations a=
bout<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; PCE and PCEP into the overlay framework context?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A02. BGP-LS needs to be considered<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A03. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; + Appendix:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Some notes on the Virtual Node:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 1. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Virtual Link Model along, sadly, do=
es not scale<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs<br=
>
&gt;have the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; same issue, that&#39;s why people invented multi-segment PWs<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 2. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The only way to avoid full-mesh of =
Virtual Links is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; by having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in =
the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; middle of the virtual topology<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 3. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0These intermediate nodes cannot be =
real server<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; domain switches, because, generally speaking:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A0 a)Real switches belong to different layer network;<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A0 b)Real switches are named from different naming spa=
ce<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A0 c)real switches individually may not have sufficien=
t<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; resources to terminate virtual links (while a group of real<br=
>
&gt;switches<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; collectively will have)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A0 d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single v=
irtual<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; node have better scalability qualities<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 4. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Even if you map a virtual node on a=
 single real<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; node, you need to keep in mind that real server domain<br>
&gt;switches are,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must expose =
their<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; connectivity matrices<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 5. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If you want to compute SRLG-disjoin=
t paths that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; could potentially go through a real server domain switch, the<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; latter&#39;s connectivity matrix must expose &quot;internal&qu=
ot; SRLGs, so that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; the two services traversing the switch will not simultaneously=
 fail<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; if a single internal element shared by the services fails<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 6. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If you walk through all cases that =
need to be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blo=
cking<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no<br>
&gt;difference<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; between a virtual node and real blocking real node.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 7. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Even in case of pure VL model, clie=
nt NEs connected<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; to server network domain must be upgraded so that they could<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt; understand the connectivity matrices advertised by the border =
nodes<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; describing connectivity constraints between access links<br>
&gt;and virtual<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; links they terminate.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; DANIELE CECCARELLI<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; System &amp; Technology - PDU Optical &amp; Metro<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Via E.Melen, 77<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Genova, Italy<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Phone <a href=3D"tel:%2B390106002512" value=3D"+3901060025=
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750" target=3D"_blank">+393346725750</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com" target=
=3D"_blank">daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">www.=
ericsson.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; This Communication is Confidential. We only send and recei=
ve<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; email on<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the basis of the term set out at <a href=3D"http://www.eri=
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www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; CCAMP mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">CCAMP@=
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&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp" ta=
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&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt; CCAMP mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">CCAMP@ietf.org=
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&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp" target=3D"=
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&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;_______________________________________________<br>
&gt;CCAMP mailing list<br>
&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">CCAMP@ietf.org</a><=
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&gt;<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp" target=3D"_blan=
k">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp</a><br>
&gt;<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
CCAMP mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">CCAMP@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

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From: Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>
To: Snigdho Bardalai <sbardalai1@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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From: Snigdho Bardalai <sbardalai1@gmail.com>
To: Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Igor,

I think depending on what the capabilities of the OE are there may be many
possibilities. Expanding on your VN examples.

Another example could be:

OC1-----VN1                              VN3-----OC2
            VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3
OC5-----VN1                              VN3-----OC6
OC3-----VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4-----OC4

Since virtual-links are potential links the topology would have to be a
mesh between the VNs. The other question that is applicable here is whether
hair-pinning is allowed in a VN?

OC1-----VN1                              VN3-----OC2
            VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3
OC5-----VN1                              VN3-----OC6
            VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL3=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4
            VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL4=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN5
OC3-----VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4-----OC4
           VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL5=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN5
           VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL6=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3

Regards
Snigdho

On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 8:01 AM, Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>wro=
te:

> Daniele,
> It seems we have a disconnect here.
>
> OC1-----OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DOE2-----OC2
> OC3-----OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DOE2-----OC4
>
> Generally speaking OEs are blocking switches, and the connectivity
> matrices need to be advertised by OEs, so that the client path computer
> will know , for example, that OC1-OE1 access link can be switched to VL1
> (but not to VL2). One way to alleviate the client path computation from
> dealing with connectivity matrices is by presenting OEs as sets of
> independent fully symmetrical Virtual Nodes:
>
> OC1-----VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3-----OC2
> OC3-----VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4-----OC4
>
> Igor
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]
> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 4:41 AM
> To: Igor Bryskin; Gert Grammel; CCAMP
> Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
> Hi Igor,
>
> Unfortunately your drawing is totally misaligned, is this a correct
> re-drawing?
>
> OC1------If1:OE1                          OE2:IF4---------OC2
>              OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2
>
> answer : is neither a), b) nor c)
>
> OC1------If1:OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF4---------OC2
>              OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2
>
> With respect to Q2:
>
> >Q2: if on the other side we considered the virtual link being
> >B) (i.e. From IF1 to IF4 hence with an "implicit" node
> >connectivity matrix) which would be the drawbacks of this solution?
> >
> >IB>>  VL cannot start on a customer facing interface. OE is a
> >(blocking)
> >IB>> switch between access and virtual TE links
>
> I still believe the tranffic matrix can be implicitely advertised as part
> of the VL. Consider this:
>
> OC3------If5:OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL1 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF6---------OC4
> OC1------If1:OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL2 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF4---------OC2
>              OE1:If2-------------------If3:OE2
>
> OE1 is a blocking node because only allows OC3 to be connected to VL1 and
> OC1 to VL2. But if you just advertise VL1 to OC3 (not VL2) and VL2 to OC1
> (not VL1) aren't you implicitely hiding the blocking nature of OE1?
>
> Cheers,
> Daniele
>
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com]
> >Sent: mercoled=EC 19 dicembre 2012 18.03
> >To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Gert Grammel; CCAMP
> >Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
> >
> >Daniele,
> >Please, see in line.
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]
> >Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 9:53 AM
> >To: Igor Bryskin; Gert Grammel; CCAMP
> >Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
> >
> >Hi Igor,
> >
> >Just focusing on the virtual links for a while; i must admit
> >that i'm a bit confused by your last mail. Let's pick the
> >figure i sent.
> >
> >>OC1                               OC2
> >>  \    +---+IF2       IF3+---+    /
> >>   \IF1|OE1|-------------|OE2|IF4/
> >>       +---+             +---+
> >>
> >>A) Virtual link is from OC1 to OC2
> >>B) Virtual link is from IF1 to IF4
> >>C) Virtual link is from IF2 to IF3
> >
> >IB>> My understanding of your picture is this:
> >
> >OC1------If1:OE1
> >OE2:IF4---------OC2
> >                       OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2 My
> >answer : is neither a), b) nor c)
> >
> >OC1------If1:OE1  =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF4------=
---OC2
> >                       OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2
> >
> >VL is between OE1 and OE 2, potential server trail is between
> >IF2 and IF3
> >
> >According to the definition given:
> >"A virtual link is a potential path between two virtual or
> >real network elements in a client layer"
> >I would say that a virtual link is from OC1 to OC2, which is A).
> >
> >IB>> See above
> >
> >Then, from your latest definition:
> >" a potential path between two virtual or real server domain
> >network elements"
> >I would say that a virtual link can be either B) or C).
> >IB>> See above
> >
> >Then you speak about access links, which implies that the link
> >between OC1 and OE1 has its own dignity and hence that the
> >virtual link is C) in picture above.
> >
> >IB>> Links OC1- OE1 and OC2-OE2 are access links
> >
> >Now i have 2 questions:
> >
> >Q1: can you confirm that a virtual link is C)? Then we need to
> >update the definition of a virtual link removing any
> >misleading reference to client/server domain Network elements
> >and speak about OCs and OEs.
> >
> >Q2: if on the other side we considered the virtual link being
> >B) (i.e. From IF1 to IF4 hence with an "implicit" node
> >connectivity matrix) which would be the drawbacks of this solution?
> >
> >IB>>  VL cannot start on a customer facing interface. OE is a
> >(blocking)
> >IB>> switch between access and virtual TE links
> >
> >
> >Thanks
> >Daniele
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com]
> >>Sent: luned=EC 17 dicembre 2012 21.12
> >>To: Gert Grammel; Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP
> >>Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
> >>
> >>Gert,
> >>
> >>Please, see in line. I disagree with pretty much everything you say.
> >>Igor
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org]
> >On Behalf
> >>Of Gert Grammel
> >>Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 8:27 AM
> >>To: Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP
> >>Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
> >>
> >>Daniele,
> >>
> >>Thank you for summarizing the current state of discussion. To move
> >>forward and to encourage comments, let me point to some of the issues
> >>that are debated:
> >>
> >>1) Virtual Link: in the terminology statement a virtual link seems to
> >>connect two client elements.
> >>IB>> The definition says:
> >>"1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between two
> >>virtual or real network elements in a client layer", what makes you
> >>think that anyone ever applied that this is a path between client
> >>devices? The definition should say, though: " a potential
> >path between
> >>two virtual or real server domain network elements"
> >>
> >> However later on the 3) virtual topology is composed of access links
> >>and virtual links. Hence. Virtual links connect server nodes, not
> >>client nodes.
> >>IB>> see above
> >>
> >> By doing so, segments (AL and VL) are created.
> >>
> >>2) The scalability consideration in the appendix for VL is based on
> >>terminology 1) rather than on virtual topology
> >>
> >>IB>> I completely disagree with this, see below
> >>
> >>3). This way it doesn't describe then the  scalability of a virtual
> >>topology (which doesn't necessitate a full mesh) but rather that of a
> >>virtual node (which implies a full connectivity matrix).
> >>
> >>To sum up:
> >>1) we have to come up with a crisp definition of a VL in a virtual
> >>topology that is different from a terminology 1) VL.
> >>Here is a gap
> >>2) A Model based on a vitual node or 'terminology 1) links'
> >>create n**2 problems on client side and does not scale.
> >>3) 'VNT'-virtual-links 3) and access links are supposed to
> >address the
> >>scaling problem. We need to clean up our terminology.
> >Otherwise we end
> >>up associating limitations of terminology 1) links with
> >VNT-links that
> >>address those limitations.
> >>
> >>IB>> It seems to me that you completely misunderstand current
> >>IB>> definitions
> >>
> >>Now looking at the appendix it sadly reflects the terminology
> >confusion
> >>and jumps to assessment and conclusions. That's unfortunate:
> >>
> >>The first line says:
> >>Some notes on the Virtual Node:
> >>1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly,
> >>--> is it now about virtual nodes or virtual links or VNT links?
> >>IB>> Virtual Link Model includes access, inter-domain and
> >>virtual links
> >>IB>> but does not include virtual nodes
> >>
> >>2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is by
> >>having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the middle
> >>of the virtual topology
> >>--> that's why access links are so useful. They end at server nodes
> >>--> which are connected via virtual links
> >>
> >>IB>> A combination of access and virtual links alone *does not
> >>address N**2 problem*.
> >>Consider 1000 client devices connected via 1000 access links to the
> >>network that need to be fully interconnected. You will need
> >1000000 VLs
> >>to do so. You need to have one or more Virtual Nodes in the middle of
> >>the virtual topology to solve this issue. Overlay Network Topology is
> >>no different from real network topology, and real network
> >topologies do
> >>include Ps, not just PEs
> >>
> >>3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain
> >>switches, because, generally speaking:
> >>--> in case of VNT-VLs no intermediate nodes are necessarily required
> >>IB>> See  above, IMO you are dead wrong
> >>
> >>4.  --> No need to comment, this way doesn't scale anyway.
> >>IB>> ONTs with virtual nodes scale no worse that real network
> >>topologies
> >>
> >>5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could
> >>potentially go through a real server domain switch, the latter's
> >>connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so that the two
> >>services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail
> >if a single
> >>internal element shared by the services fails
> >>--> who is 'you' that computes? A client selects among VNT
> >>virtual links based on exposed SRLGs, VLs are computed by the server
> >>with full knowledge of constraints. So what does an 'internal' SRLG
> >>mean to a server path computation?
> >>
> >>IB>> You is the client path computer. If the two paths are
> >>going through
> >>IB>> the same node, they may overlap inside the node, which
> >means they
> >>IB>> can be brought down by a single network failure. That's why you
> >>IB>> need to expose  node's internal SRLGs or try to find node
> >>disjoint
> >>IB>> paths (which may not be available)
> >>
> >>6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be
> >>addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking
> >>switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no difference
> >>between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
> >>--> I suggest to model a complete network of say 5 nodes in a
> >>single VN and compare it with the model of a single real node.
> >>
> >>IB>> Please, do that
> >>
> >>--> The assessments made have used a terminology definition
> >>that doesn't really capture the case made for VNT-VLs.
> >>That's why I would have had appreciated to split definitions and work
> >>items agreed among a group from individual assessments in separate
> >>emails.
> >>Nevertheless I consider the first part of your email (all except the
> >>appendix) as a good starting point for further clarification.
> >>
> >>Gert
> >>________________________________________
> >>From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Daniele Ceccarelli
> >>Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 12:17:08 PM
> >>To: CCAMP
> >>Subject: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
> >>
> >>Dear CCAMPers,
> >>
> >>In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the Overlay model
> >>framework and related works took place. Some discussions led to some
> >>sort of agreemet among a small group of people, some others
> >to a set a
> >>viable options, some others to totally open issues. I tried to
> >>summarize the output of such discussions below so to progress the
> >>discussions into a single thread on the WG ML.
> >>
> >>Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a well shaped
> >>and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to provide the basis for
> >>starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea (step 1) instead of
> >>starting it from scratch (step 0).
> >>
> >>In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a proposal of the
> >>overlay scenario.
> >>
> >>Thanks,
> >>Daniele
> >>
> >>+ Disclaimer:
> >> 1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work can be
> >>extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.
> >>
> >>+ Terminology:
> >>
> >> 1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between two
> >>virtual or real network elements in a client layer network  that is
> >>maintained/controlled in and by the server domain control
> >plane (and as
> >>such cannot transport any traffic/data and protected from being
> >>de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the data plane (and
> >>then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving previously
> >>advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.
> >> 2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or
> >more server
> >>network  domain nodes that are collectively represented to
> >the clients
> >>as a single node that exists in the client layer network and
> >is capable
> >>of terminating of access, inter-domain and virtual links.
> >> 3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one or more
> >>virtual or real server network domain nodes that exist in the client
> >>layer network and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual links.
> >> 4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies
> >provided by
> >>each of server network domains, access and inter-domain links.
> >> 5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that link. It
> >>can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
> >> 6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208
> >teminology
> >>but (i) receiving virtual topology from the core network and
> >requesting
> >>the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting the computation and
> >>establishment of a path accordingly to gien constraints in the core
> >>network and receiving the parameters characterizing such
> >path. (ii) =3D=3D
> >>UNI.
> >> 7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but able to
> >>deal with (i) and (ii) above.
> >> 8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for signaling
> >>and routing messages exchange between Overlay and Core
> >network. Routing
> >>information consists on virtual topology advertisement. When there is
> >>no routing adjacency across the interface it is equivalent to
> >the GMPLS
> >>UNI defined in 4208.
> >>Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information related to
> >>path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected SRLG, path
> >delay etc,
> >>either passed from OE to OC via signaling after the LSP establishment
> >>in the core network or from OC to OE to be used as path computation
> >>constraints, fall under the definition of signaling info and not
> >>routing info).
> >> 9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the links
> >>between different core networks in the overlay model environment, i.e.
> >>Between border OEs. Same features of the ONI apply to this interface.
> >>Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name is needed?
> >>
> >>+ Statements
> >> 1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build an overlay
> >>topology for the client network domains  2. The overlay topology is
> >>comprised of:
> >>    a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the
> >server network
> >>domains). They can be PSC or LSC.
> >>    b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server network
> >>domains)
> >>    c) virtual topology provided by the server network
> >domains. Virtual
> >>Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) + Connectivity Matrix (with a set of
> >>parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments, delay etc for each entry)
> >>describing connectivity between access links and virtual links.
> >> 3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy  of overlay
> >>topologies with overlay/underlay relationships  4. In the context of
> >>overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships are
> >>peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network integration  5.
> >>The overlay model assumes one instance for the client network and a
> >>separate instance for the server network and in the ONI case
> >the server
> >>network also surreptitiously participates in the client network by
> >>injecting virtual topology information into it.
> >> 6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over
> >the ONI (it
> >>falls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency is in place
> >between OC
> >>and OE).
> >>
> >>+ Open issues/questions
> >>
> >> 1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about PCE
> >and PCEP
> >>into the overlay framework context?
> >> 2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
> >> 3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?
> >>
> >>+ Appendix:
> >>Some notes on the Virtual Node:
> >>1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale
> >>because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs have the
> >>same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs
> >>2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is by
> >>having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the middle
> >>of the virtual topology
> >>3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain
> >>switches, because, generally speaking:
> >>  a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
> >>  b)Real switches are named from different naming space
> >>  c)real switches individually may not have sufficient resources to
> >>terminate virtual links (while a group of real switches collectively
> >>will have)
> >>  d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual node have
> >>better scalability qualities
> >>4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real node,
> >>you need to keep in mind that real server domain switches are,
> >>generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must expose their
> >>connectivity matrices
> >>5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could
> >>potentially go through a real server domain switch, the latter's
> >>connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so that the two
> >>services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail
> >if a single
> >>internal element shared by the services fails
> >>6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be
> >>addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking
> >>switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no difference
> >>between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
> >>7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected to
> >>server network domain must be upgraded so that they could understand
> >>the connectivity matrices advertised by the border nodes describing
> >>connectivity constraints between access links and virtual links they
> >>terminate.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> >>DANIELE CECCARELLI
> >>System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro
> >>
> >>Via E.Melen, 77
> >>Genova, Italy
> >>Phone +390106002512
> >>Mobile +393346725750
> >>daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
> >>www.ericsson.com
> >>
> >>This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive email on
> >>the basis of the term set out at www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer
> >>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>CCAMP mailing list
> >>CCAMP@ietf.org
> >>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> >>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>

--e89a8f646e0d76b94f04d14f7c31
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Igor,<div><br></div><div>I think depending on what the capabilities of the =
OE are there may be many possibilities. Expanding on your VN examples.</div=
><div><br></div><div>Another example could be:</div><div><br></div><div>
OC1-----VN1 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0VN3-=
----OC2</div><div>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3DVN3</div><div>OC5-----VN1 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0VN3-----OC6<br>OC3-----VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3DVN4-----OC4</div><div><br></div>
<div>Since virtual-links are potential links the topology would have to be =
a mesh between the VNs. The other question that is applicable here is wheth=
er hair-pinning is allowed in a VN?</div><div><br></div><div><div>OC1-----V=
N1 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0VN3-----OC2</=
div>
<div>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3<=
/div><div>OC5-----VN1 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0VN3-----OC6</div><div>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DV=
L3=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4</div><div>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3DVL4=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN5</div><div>OC3-----VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4-----OC4</div>
</div><div>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL5=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3DVN5</div><div>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL6=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3DVN3</div><div><br></div><div>Regards</div><div>Snigdho</div><div><=
br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 8:01 AM, Igor Bryskin=
 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com" target=
=3D"_blank">IBryskin@advaoptical.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Daniele,<br>
It seems we have a disconnect here.<br>
<br>
OC1-----OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DOE2-----OC2<br>
OC3-----OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DOE2-----OC4<br>
<br>
Generally speaking OEs are blocking switches, and the connectivity matrices=
 need to be advertised by OEs, so that the client path computer will know ,=
 for example, that OC1-OE1 access link can be switched to VL1 (but not to V=
L2). One way to alleviate the client path computation from dealing with con=
nectivity matrices is by presenting OEs as sets of independent fully symmet=
rical Virtual Nodes:<br>

<br>
OC1-----VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3-----OC2<br>
OC3-----VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4-----OC4<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
Igor<br>
</font></span><div class=3D"im HOEnZb"><br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@erics=
son.com">daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com</a>]<br>
</div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">Sent: Thursday, December 20, =
2012 4:41 AM<br>
To: Igor Bryskin; Gert Grammel; CCAMP<br>
Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
<br>
Hi Igor,<br>
<br>
Unfortunately your drawing is totally misaligned, is this a correct re-draw=
ing?<br>
<br>
OC1------If1:OE1 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0OE2:IF4=
---------OC2<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2<br>
<br>
answer : is neither a), b) nor c)<br>
<br>
OC1------If1:OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF4---------OC2<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2<br>
<br>
With respect to Q2:<br>
<br>
&gt;Q2: if on the other side we considered the virtual link being<br>
&gt;B) (i.e. From IF1 to IF4 hence with an &quot;implicit&quot; node<br>
&gt;connectivity matrix) which would be the drawbacks of this solution?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; =A0VL cannot start on a customer facing interface. OE is a<b=
r>
&gt;(blocking)<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; switch between access and virtual TE links<br>
<br>
I still believe the tranffic matrix can be implicitely advertised as part o=
f the VL. Consider this:<br>
<br>
OC3------If5:OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL1 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF6---------OC4<br>
OC1------If1:OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL2 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF4---------OC2<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0OE1:If2-------------------If3:OE2<br>
<br>
OE1 is a blocking node because only allows OC3 to be connected to VL1 and O=
C1 to VL2. But if you just advertise VL1 to OC3 (not VL2) and VL2 to OC1 (n=
ot VL1) aren&#39;t you implicitely hiding the blocking nature of OE1?<br>

<br>
Cheers,<br>
Daniele<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt;-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com">=
IBryskin@advaoptical.com</a>]<br>
&gt;Sent: mercoled=EC 19 dicembre 2012 18.03<br>
&gt;To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Gert Grammel; CCAMP<br>
&gt;Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Daniele,<br>
&gt;Please, see in line.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@e=
ricsson.com">daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com</a>]<br>
&gt;Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 9:53 AM<br>
&gt;To: Igor Bryskin; Gert Grammel; CCAMP<br>
&gt;Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Hi Igor,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Just focusing on the virtual links for a while; i must admit<br>
&gt;that i&#39;m a bit confused by your last mail. Let&#39;s pick the<br>
&gt;figure i sent.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;OC1 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 OC2=
<br>
&gt;&gt; =A0\ =A0 =A0+---+IF2 =A0 =A0 =A0 IF3+---+ =A0 =A0/<br>
&gt;&gt; =A0 \IF1|OE1|-------------|OE2|IF4/<br>
&gt;&gt; =A0 =A0 =A0 +---+ =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 +---+<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;A) Virtual link is from OC1 to OC2<br>
&gt;&gt;B) Virtual link is from IF1 to IF4<br>
&gt;&gt;C) Virtual link is from IF2 to IF3<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; My understanding of your picture is this:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;OC1------If1:OE1<br>
&gt;OE2:IF4---------OC2<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 OE1:If2----------------- I=
f3:OE2 My<br>
&gt;answer : is neither a), b) nor c)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;OC1------If1:OE1 =A0=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF4---=
------OC2<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 OE1:If2----------------- I=
f3:OE2<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;VL is between OE1 and OE 2, potential server trail is between<br>
&gt;IF2 and IF3<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;According to the definition given:<br>
&gt;&quot;A virtual link is a potential path between two virtual or<br>
&gt;real network elements in a client layer&quot;<br>
&gt;I would say that a virtual link is from OC1 to OC2, which is A).<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; See above<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Then, from your latest definition:<br>
&gt;&quot; a potential path between two virtual or real server domain<br>
&gt;network elements&quot;<br>
&gt;I would say that a virtual link can be either B) or C).<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; See above<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Then you speak about access links, which implies that the link<br>
&gt;between OC1 and OE1 has its own dignity and hence that the<br>
&gt;virtual link is C) in picture above.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; Links OC1- OE1 and OC2-OE2 are access links<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Now i have 2 questions:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Q1: can you confirm that a virtual link is C)? Then we need to<br>
&gt;update the definition of a virtual link removing any<br>
&gt;misleading reference to client/server domain Network elements<br>
&gt;and speak about OCs and OEs.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Q2: if on the other side we considered the virtual link being<br>
&gt;B) (i.e. From IF1 to IF4 hence with an &quot;implicit&quot; node<br>
&gt;connectivity matrix) which would be the drawbacks of this solution?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; =A0VL cannot start on a customer facing interface. OE is a<b=
r>
&gt;(blocking)<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; switch between access and virtual TE links<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Thanks<br>
&gt;Daniele<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;&gt;From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.c=
om">IBryskin@advaoptical.com</a>]<br>
&gt;&gt;Sent: luned=EC 17 dicembre 2012 21.12<br>
&gt;&gt;To: Gert Grammel; Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP<br>
&gt;&gt;Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Gert,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Please, see in line. I disagree with pretty much everything you say=
.<br>
&gt;&gt;Igor<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;&gt;From: <a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.=
org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@iet=
f.org</a>]<br>
&gt;On Behalf<br>
&gt;&gt;Of Gert Grammel<br>
&gt;&gt;Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 8:27 AM<br>
&gt;&gt;To: Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP<br>
&gt;&gt;Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Daniele,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Thank you for summarizing the current state of discussion. To move<=
br>
&gt;&gt;forward and to encourage comments, let me point to some of the issu=
es<br>
&gt;&gt;that are debated:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;1) Virtual Link: in the terminology statement a virtual link seems =
to<br>
&gt;&gt;connect two client elements.<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; The definition says:<br>
&gt;&gt;&quot;1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between t=
wo<br>
&gt;&gt;virtual or real network elements in a client layer&quot;, what make=
s you<br>
&gt;&gt;think that anyone ever applied that this is a path between client<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;devices? The definition should say, though: &quot; a potential<br>
&gt;path between<br>
&gt;&gt;two virtual or real server domain network elements&quot;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; However later on the 3) virtual topology is composed of access lin=
ks<br>
&gt;&gt;and virtual links. Hence. Virtual links connect server nodes, not<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;client nodes.<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; see above<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; By doing so, segments (AL and VL) are created.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;2) The scalability consideration in the appendix for VL is based on=
<br>
&gt;&gt;terminology 1) rather than on virtual topology<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; I completely disagree with this, see below<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;3). This way it doesn&#39;t describe then the =A0scalability of a v=
irtual<br>
&gt;&gt;topology (which doesn&#39;t necessitate a full mesh) but rather tha=
t of a<br>
&gt;&gt;virtual node (which implies a full connectivity matrix).<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;To sum up:<br>
&gt;&gt;1) we have to come up with a crisp definition of a VL in a virtual<=
br>
&gt;&gt;topology that is different from a terminology 1) VL.<br>
&gt;&gt;Here is a gap<br>
&gt;&gt;2) A Model based on a vitual node or &#39;terminology 1) links&#39;=
<br>
&gt;&gt;create n**2 problems on client side and does not scale.<br>
&gt;&gt;3) &#39;VNT&#39;-virtual-links 3) and access links are supposed to<=
br>
&gt;address the<br>
&gt;&gt;scaling problem. We need to clean up our terminology.<br>
&gt;Otherwise we end<br>
&gt;&gt;up associating limitations of terminology 1) links with<br>
&gt;VNT-links that<br>
&gt;&gt;address those limitations.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; It seems to me that you completely misunderstand current=
<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; definitions<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Now looking at the appendix it sadly reflects the terminology<br>
&gt;confusion<br>
&gt;&gt;and jumps to assessment and conclusions. That&#39;s unfortunate:<br=
>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;The first line says:<br>
&gt;&gt;Some notes on the Virtual Node:<br>
&gt;&gt;1. =A0 =A0 =A0Virtual Link Model along, sadly,<br>
&gt;&gt;--&gt; is it now about virtual nodes or virtual links or VNT links?=
<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; Virtual Link Model includes access, inter-domain and<br>
&gt;&gt;virtual links<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; but does not include virtual nodes<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;2. =A0 =A0 =A0The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is b=
y<br>
&gt;&gt;having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the midd=
le<br>
&gt;&gt;of the virtual topology<br>
&gt;&gt;--&gt; that&#39;s why access links are so useful. They end at serve=
r nodes<br>
&gt;&gt;--&gt; which are connected via virtual links<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; A combination of access and virtual links alone *does no=
t<br>
&gt;&gt;address N**2 problem*.<br>
&gt;&gt;Consider 1000 client devices connected via 1000 access links to the=
<br>
&gt;&gt;network that need to be fully interconnected. You will need<br>
&gt;1000000 VLs<br>
&gt;&gt;to do so. You need to have one or more Virtual Nodes in the middle =
of<br>
&gt;&gt;the virtual topology to solve this issue. Overlay Network Topology =
is<br>
&gt;&gt;no different from real network topology, and real network<br>
&gt;topologies do<br>
&gt;&gt;include Ps, not just PEs<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;3. =A0 =A0 =A0These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain=
<br>
&gt;&gt;switches, because, generally speaking:<br>
&gt;&gt;--&gt; in case of VNT-VLs no intermediate nodes are necessarily req=
uired<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; See =A0above, IMO you are dead wrong<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;4. =A0--&gt; No need to comment, this way doesn&#39;t scale anyway.=
<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; ONTs with virtual nodes scale no worse that real network=
<br>
&gt;&gt;topologies<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;5. =A0 =A0 =A0If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could=
<br>
&gt;&gt;potentially go through a real server domain switch, the latter&#39;=
s<br>
&gt;&gt;connectivity matrix must expose &quot;internal&quot; SRLGs, so that=
 the two<br>
&gt;&gt;services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail<br>
&gt;if a single<br>
&gt;&gt;internal element shared by the services fails<br>
&gt;&gt;--&gt; who is &#39;you&#39; that computes? A client selects among V=
NT<br>
&gt;&gt;virtual links based on exposed SRLGs, VLs are computed by the serve=
r<br>
&gt;&gt;with full knowledge of constraints. So what does an &#39;internal&#=
39; SRLG<br>
&gt;&gt;mean to a server path computation?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; You is the client path computer. If the two paths are<br=
>
&gt;&gt;going through<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; the same node, they may overlap inside the node, which<b=
r>
&gt;means they<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; can be brought down by a single network failure. That&#3=
9;s why you<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; need to expose =A0node&#39;s internal SRLGs or try to fi=
nd node<br>
&gt;&gt;disjoint<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; paths (which may not be available)<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;6. =A0 =A0 =A0If you walk through all cases that need to be<br>
&gt;&gt;addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking=
<br>
&gt;&gt;switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no differenc=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;between a virtual node and real blocking real node.<br>
&gt;&gt;--&gt; I suggest to model a complete network of say 5 nodes in a<br=
>
&gt;&gt;single VN and compare it with the model of a single real node.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; Please, do that<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;--&gt; The assessments made have used a terminology definition<br>
&gt;&gt;that doesn&#39;t really capture the case made for VNT-VLs.<br>
&gt;&gt;That&#39;s why I would have had appreciated to split definitions an=
d work<br>
&gt;&gt;items agreed among a group from individual assessments in separate<=
br>
&gt;&gt;emails.<br>
&gt;&gt;Nevertheless I consider the first part of your email (all except th=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;appendix) as a good starting point for further clarification.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Gert<br>
&gt;&gt;________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt;From: <a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.=
org</a> on behalf of Daniele Ceccarelli<br>
&gt;&gt;Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 12:17:08 PM<br>
&gt;&gt;To: CCAMP<br>
&gt;&gt;Subject: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Dear CCAMPers,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the Overlay model=
<br>
&gt;&gt;framework and related works took place. Some discussions led to som=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;sort of agreemet among a small group of people, some others<br>
&gt;to a set a<br>
&gt;&gt;viable options, some others to totally open issues. I tried to<br>
&gt;&gt;summarize the output of such discussions below so to progress the<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;discussions into a single thread on the WG ML.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a well shap=
ed<br>
&gt;&gt;and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to provide the basis for<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea (step 1) instead of=
<br>
&gt;&gt;starting it from scratch (step 0).<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a proposal of t=
he<br>
&gt;&gt;overlay scenario.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt;Daniele<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;+ Disclaimer:<br>
&gt;&gt; 1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work can be=
<br>
&gt;&gt;extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;+ Terminology:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; 1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between two<br=
>
&gt;&gt;virtual or real network elements in a client layer network =A0that =
is<br>
&gt;&gt;maintained/controlled in and by the server domain control<br>
&gt;plane (and as<br>
&gt;&gt;such cannot transport any traffic/data and protected from being<br>
&gt;&gt;de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the data plane (an=
d<br>
&gt;&gt;then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving previousl=
y<br>
&gt;&gt;advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.<br>
&gt;&gt; 2. =A0Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or<br>
&gt;more server<br>
&gt;&gt;network =A0domain nodes that are collectively represented to<br>
&gt;the clients<br>
&gt;&gt;as a single node that exists in the client layer network and<br>
&gt;is capable<br>
&gt;&gt;of terminating of access, inter-domain and virtual links.<br>
&gt;&gt; 3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one or mor=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;virtual or real server network domain nodes that exist in the clien=
t<br>
&gt;&gt;layer network and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual links.<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; 4. Overlay topology: =A0is a superset of virtual topologies<br>
&gt;provided by<br>
&gt;&gt;each of server network domains, access and inter-domain links.<br>
&gt;&gt; 5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that link. I=
t<br>
&gt;&gt;can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.<br>
&gt;&gt; 6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208<br>
&gt;teminology<br>
&gt;&gt;but (i) receiving virtual topology from the core network and<br>
&gt;requesting<br>
&gt;&gt;the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting the computation and<br=
>
&gt;&gt;establishment of a path accordingly to gien constraints in the core=
<br>
&gt;&gt;network and receiving the parameters characterizing such<br>
&gt;path. (ii) =3D=3D<br>
&gt;&gt;UNI.<br>
&gt;&gt; 7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but able to=
<br>
&gt;&gt;deal with (i) and (ii) above.<br>
&gt;&gt; 8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for signali=
ng<br>
&gt;&gt;and routing messages exchange between Overlay and Core<br>
&gt;network. Routing<br>
&gt;&gt;information consists on virtual topology advertisement. When there =
is<br>
&gt;&gt;no routing adjacency across the interface it is equivalent to<br>
&gt;the GMPLS<br>
&gt;&gt;UNI defined in 4208.<br>
&gt;&gt;Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information related =
to<br>
&gt;&gt;path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected SRLG, path<br>
&gt;delay etc,<br>
&gt;&gt;either passed from OE to OC via signaling after the LSP establishme=
nt<br>
&gt;&gt;in the core network or from OC to OE to be used as path computation=
<br>
&gt;&gt;constraints, fall under the definition of signaling info and not<br=
>
&gt;&gt;routing info).<br>
&gt;&gt; 9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the links<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;between different core networks in the overlay model environment, i=
.e.<br>
&gt;&gt;Between border OEs. Same features of the ONI apply to this interfac=
e.<br>
&gt;&gt;Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name is needed?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;+ Statements<br>
&gt;&gt; 1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build an overl=
ay<br>
&gt;&gt;topology for the client network domains =A02. The overlay topology =
is<br>
&gt;&gt;comprised of:<br>
&gt;&gt; =A0 =A0a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the<br>
&gt;server network<br>
&gt;&gt;domains). They can be PSC or LSC.<br>
&gt;&gt; =A0 =A0b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server network=
<br>
&gt;&gt;domains)<br>
&gt;&gt; =A0 =A0c) virtual topology provided by the server network<br>
&gt;domains. Virtual<br>
&gt;&gt;Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) + Connectivity Matrix (with a set of<br=
>
&gt;&gt;parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments, delay etc for each entry=
)<br>
&gt;&gt;describing connectivity between access links and virtual links.<br>
&gt;&gt; 3. In the context of overlay model we manage =A0hierarchy =A0of ov=
erlay<br>
&gt;&gt;topologies with overlay/underlay relationships =A04. In the context=
 of<br>
&gt;&gt;overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships are<br>
&gt;&gt;peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network integration =
=A05.<br>
&gt;&gt;The overlay model assumes one instance for the client network and a=
<br>
&gt;&gt;separate instance for the server network and in the ONI case<br>
&gt;the server<br>
&gt;&gt;network also surreptitiously participates in the client network by<=
br>
&gt;&gt;injecting virtual topology information into it.<br>
&gt;&gt; 6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over<br>
&gt;the ONI (it<br>
&gt;&gt;falls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency is in place<br>
&gt;between OC<br>
&gt;&gt;and OE).<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;+ Open issues/questions<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; 1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about PCE<br>
&gt;and PCEP<br>
&gt;&gt;into the overlay framework context?<br>
&gt;&gt; 2. BGP-LS needs to be considered<br>
&gt;&gt; 3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;+ Appendix:<br>
&gt;&gt;Some notes on the Virtual Node:<br>
&gt;&gt;1. =A0 =A0 =A0Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale<br>
&gt;&gt;because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs have th=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;same issue, that&#39;s why people invented multi-segment PWs<br>
&gt;&gt;2. =A0 =A0 =A0The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is b=
y<br>
&gt;&gt;having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the midd=
le<br>
&gt;&gt;of the virtual topology<br>
&gt;&gt;3. =A0 =A0 =A0These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain=
<br>
&gt;&gt;switches, because, generally speaking:<br>
&gt;&gt; =A0a)Real switches belong to different layer network;<br>
&gt;&gt; =A0b)Real switches are named from different naming space<br>
&gt;&gt; =A0c)real switches individually may not have sufficient resources =
to<br>
&gt;&gt;terminate virtual links (while a group of real switches collectivel=
y<br>
&gt;&gt;will have)<br>
&gt;&gt; =A0d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual node =
have<br>
&gt;&gt;better scalability qualities<br>
&gt;&gt;4. =A0 =A0 =A0Even if you map a virtual node on a single real node,=
<br>
&gt;&gt;you need to keep in mind that real server domain switches are,<br>
&gt;&gt;generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must expose their=
<br>
&gt;&gt;connectivity matrices<br>
&gt;&gt;5. =A0 =A0 =A0If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could=
<br>
&gt;&gt;potentially go through a real server domain switch, the latter&#39;=
s<br>
&gt;&gt;connectivity matrix must expose &quot;internal&quot; SRLGs, so that=
 the two<br>
&gt;&gt;services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail<br>
&gt;if a single<br>
&gt;&gt;internal element shared by the services fails<br>
&gt;&gt;6. =A0 =A0 =A0If you walk through all cases that need to be<br>
&gt;&gt;addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking=
<br>
&gt;&gt;switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no differenc=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;between a virtual node and real blocking real node.<br>
&gt;&gt;7. =A0 =A0 =A0Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected t=
o<br>
&gt;&gt;server network domain must be upgraded so that they could understan=
d<br>
&gt;&gt;the connectivity matrices advertised by the border nodes describing=
<br>
&gt;&gt;connectivity constraints between access links and virtual links the=
y<br>
&gt;&gt;terminate.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
&gt;&gt;DANIELE CECCARELLI<br>
&gt;&gt;System &amp; Technology - PDU Optical &amp; Metro<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Via E.Melen, 77<br>
&gt;&gt;Genova, Italy<br>
&gt;&gt;Phone +390106002512<br>
&gt;&gt;Mobile +393346725750<br>
&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com">daniele.ceccarel=
li@ericsson.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"http://www.ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">www.ericsson.=
com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive email =
on<br>
&gt;&gt;the basis of the term set out at <a href=3D"http://www.ericsson.com=
/email_disclaimer" target=3D"_blank">www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer</a><=
br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;_______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt;CCAMP mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org">CCAMP@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp" target=3D"_=
blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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From: Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>
To: Snigdho Bardalai <sbardalai1@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Define the "hair-pinning", please

From: Snigdho Bardalai [mailto:sbardalai1@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 4:34 PM
To: Igor Bryskin
Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Gert Grammel; CCAMP
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context

Igor,

I think depending on what the capabilities of the OE are there may be many =
possibilities. Expanding on your VN examples.

Another example could be:

OC1-----VN1                              VN3-----OC2
            VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3
OC5-----VN1                              VN3-----OC6
OC3-----VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4-----OC4

Since virtual-links are potential links the topology would have to be a mes=
h between the VNs. The other question that is applicable here is whether ha=
ir-pinning is allowed in a VN?

OC1-----VN1                              VN3-----OC2
            VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3
OC5-----VN1                              VN3-----OC6
            VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL3=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4
            VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL4=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN5
OC3-----VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4-----OC4
           VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL5=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN5
           VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL6=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3

Regards
Snigdho

On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 8:01 AM, Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com<mai=
lto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com>> wrote:
Daniele,
It seems we have a disconnect here.

OC1-----OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DOE2-----OC2
OC3-----OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DOE2-----OC4

Generally speaking OEs are blocking switches, and the connectivity matrices=
 need to be advertised by OEs, so that the client path computer will know ,=
 for example, that OC1-OE1 access link can be switched to VL1 (but not to V=
L2). One way to alleviate the client path computation from dealing with con=
nectivity matrices is by presenting OEs as sets of independent fully symmet=
rical Virtual Nodes:

OC1-----VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3-----OC2
OC3-----VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4-----OC4

Igor

-----Original Message-----
From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com<mailto:dan=
iele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>]
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 4:41 AM
To: Igor Bryskin; Gert Grammel; CCAMP
Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context

Hi Igor,

Unfortunately your drawing is totally misaligned, is this a correct re-draw=
ing?

OC1------If1:OE1                          OE2:IF4---------OC2
             OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2

answer : is neither a), b) nor c)

OC1------If1:OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF4---------OC2
             OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2

With respect to Q2:

>Q2: if on the other side we considered the virtual link being
>B) (i.e. From IF1 to IF4 hence with an "implicit" node
>connectivity matrix) which would be the drawbacks of this solution?
>
>IB>>  VL cannot start on a customer facing interface. OE is a
>(blocking)
>IB>> switch between access and virtual TE links

I still believe the tranffic matrix can be implicitely advertised as part o=
f the VL. Consider this:

OC3------If5:OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL1 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF6---------OC4
OC1------If1:OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL2 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF4---------OC2
             OE1:If2-------------------If3:OE2

OE1 is a blocking node because only allows OC3 to be connected to VL1 and O=
C1 to VL2. But if you just advertise VL1 to OC3 (not VL2) and VL2 to OC1 (n=
ot VL1) aren't you implicitely hiding the blocking nature of OE1?

Cheers,
Daniele


>-----Original Message-----
>From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com<mailto:IBryskin@advaop=
tical.com>]
>Sent: mercoled=EC 19 dicembre 2012 18.03
>To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Gert Grammel; CCAMP
>Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>Daniele,
>Please, see in line.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com<mailto:da=
niele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>]
>Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 9:53 AM
>To: Igor Bryskin; Gert Grammel; CCAMP
>Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>Hi Igor,
>
>Just focusing on the virtual links for a while; i must admit
>that i'm a bit confused by your last mail. Let's pick the
>figure i sent.
>
>>OC1                               OC2
>>  \    +---+IF2       IF3+---+    /
>>   \IF1|OE1|-------------|OE2|IF4/
>>       +---+             +---+
>>
>>A) Virtual link is from OC1 to OC2
>>B) Virtual link is from IF1 to IF4
>>C) Virtual link is from IF2 to IF3
>
>IB>> My understanding of your picture is this:
>
>OC1------If1:OE1
>OE2:IF4---------OC2
>                       OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2 My
>answer : is neither a), b) nor c)
>
>OC1------If1:OE1  =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF4--------=
-OC2
>                       OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2
>
>VL is between OE1 and OE 2, potential server trail is between
>IF2 and IF3
>
>According to the definition given:
>"A virtual link is a potential path between two virtual or
>real network elements in a client layer"
>I would say that a virtual link is from OC1 to OC2, which is A).
>
>IB>> See above
>
>Then, from your latest definition:
>" a potential path between two virtual or real server domain
>network elements"
>I would say that a virtual link can be either B) or C).
>IB>> See above
>
>Then you speak about access links, which implies that the link
>between OC1 and OE1 has its own dignity and hence that the
>virtual link is C) in picture above.
>
>IB>> Links OC1- OE1 and OC2-OE2 are access links
>
>Now i have 2 questions:
>
>Q1: can you confirm that a virtual link is C)? Then we need to
>update the definition of a virtual link removing any
>misleading reference to client/server domain Network elements
>and speak about OCs and OEs.
>
>Q2: if on the other side we considered the virtual link being
>B) (i.e. From IF1 to IF4 hence with an "implicit" node
>connectivity matrix) which would be the drawbacks of this solution?
>
>IB>>  VL cannot start on a customer facing interface. OE is a
>(blocking)
>IB>> switch between access and virtual TE links
>
>
>Thanks
>Daniele
>
>
>
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com<mailto:IBryskin@advao=
ptical.com>]
>>Sent: luned=EC 17 dicembre 2012 21.12
>>To: Gert Grammel; Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP
>>Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>
>>Gert,
>>
>>Please, see in line. I disagree with pretty much everything you say.
>>Igor
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:ccamp=
-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org>]
>On Behalf
>>Of Gert Grammel
>>Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 8:27 AM
>>To: Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP
>>Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>
>>Daniele,
>>
>>Thank you for summarizing the current state of discussion. To move
>>forward and to encourage comments, let me point to some of the issues
>>that are debated:
>>
>>1) Virtual Link: in the terminology statement a virtual link seems to
>>connect two client elements.
>>IB>> The definition says:
>>"1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between two
>>virtual or real network elements in a client layer", what makes you
>>think that anyone ever applied that this is a path between client
>>devices? The definition should say, though: " a potential
>path between
>>two virtual or real server domain network elements"
>>
>> However later on the 3) virtual topology is composed of access links
>>and virtual links. Hence. Virtual links connect server nodes, not
>>client nodes.
>>IB>> see above
>>
>> By doing so, segments (AL and VL) are created.
>>
>>2) The scalability consideration in the appendix for VL is based on
>>terminology 1) rather than on virtual topology
>>
>>IB>> I completely disagree with this, see below
>>
>>3). This way it doesn't describe then the  scalability of a virtual
>>topology (which doesn't necessitate a full mesh) but rather that of a
>>virtual node (which implies a full connectivity matrix).
>>
>>To sum up:
>>1) we have to come up with a crisp definition of a VL in a virtual
>>topology that is different from a terminology 1) VL.
>>Here is a gap
>>2) A Model based on a vitual node or 'terminology 1) links'
>>create n**2 problems on client side and does not scale.
>>3) 'VNT'-virtual-links 3) and access links are supposed to
>address the
>>scaling problem. We need to clean up our terminology.
>Otherwise we end
>>up associating limitations of terminology 1) links with
>VNT-links that
>>address those limitations.
>>
>>IB>> It seems to me that you completely misunderstand current
>>IB>> definitions
>>
>>Now looking at the appendix it sadly reflects the terminology
>confusion
>>and jumps to assessment and conclusions. That's unfortunate:
>>
>>The first line says:
>>Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>>1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly,
>>--> is it now about virtual nodes or virtual links or VNT links?
>>IB>> Virtual Link Model includes access, inter-domain and
>>virtual links
>>IB>> but does not include virtual nodes
>>
>>2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is by
>>having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the middle
>>of the virtual topology
>>--> that's why access links are so useful. They end at server nodes
>>--> which are connected via virtual links
>>
>>IB>> A combination of access and virtual links alone *does not
>>address N**2 problem*.
>>Consider 1000 client devices connected via 1000 access links to the
>>network that need to be fully interconnected. You will need
>1000000 VLs
>>to do so. You need to have one or more Virtual Nodes in the middle of
>>the virtual topology to solve this issue. Overlay Network Topology is
>>no different from real network topology, and real network
>topologies do
>>include Ps, not just PEs
>>
>>3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain
>>switches, because, generally speaking:
>>--> in case of VNT-VLs no intermediate nodes are necessarily required
>>IB>> See  above, IMO you are dead wrong
>>
>>4.  --> No need to comment, this way doesn't scale anyway.
>>IB>> ONTs with virtual nodes scale no worse that real network
>>topologies
>>
>>5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could
>>potentially go through a real server domain switch, the latter's
>>connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so that the two
>>services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail
>if a single
>>internal element shared by the services fails
>>--> who is 'you' that computes? A client selects among VNT
>>virtual links based on exposed SRLGs, VLs are computed by the server
>>with full knowledge of constraints. So what does an 'internal' SRLG
>>mean to a server path computation?
>>
>>IB>> You is the client path computer. If the two paths are
>>going through
>>IB>> the same node, they may overlap inside the node, which
>means they
>>IB>> can be brought down by a single network failure. That's why you
>>IB>> need to expose  node's internal SRLGs or try to find node
>>disjoint
>>IB>> paths (which may not be available)
>>
>>6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be
>>addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking
>>switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no difference
>>between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
>>--> I suggest to model a complete network of say 5 nodes in a
>>single VN and compare it with the model of a single real node.
>>
>>IB>> Please, do that
>>
>>--> The assessments made have used a terminology definition
>>that doesn't really capture the case made for VNT-VLs.
>>That's why I would have had appreciated to split definitions and work
>>items agreed among a group from individual assessments in separate
>>emails.
>>Nevertheless I consider the first part of your email (all except the
>>appendix) as a good starting point for further clarification.
>>
>>Gert
>>________________________________________
>>From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of =
Daniele Ceccarelli
>>Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 12:17:08 PM
>>To: CCAMP
>>Subject: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>
>>Dear CCAMPers,
>>
>>In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the Overlay model
>>framework and related works took place. Some discussions led to some
>>sort of agreemet among a small group of people, some others
>to a set a
>>viable options, some others to totally open issues. I tried to
>>summarize the output of such discussions below so to progress the
>>discussions into a single thread on the WG ML.
>>
>>Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a well shaped
>>and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to provide the basis for
>>starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea (step 1) instead of
>>starting it from scratch (step 0).
>>
>>In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a proposal of the
>>overlay scenario.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Daniele
>>
>>+ Disclaimer:
>> 1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work can be
>>extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.
>>
>>+ Terminology:
>>
>> 1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between two
>>virtual or real network elements in a client layer network  that is
>>maintained/controlled in and by the server domain control
>plane (and as
>>such cannot transport any traffic/data and protected from being
>>de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the data plane (and
>>then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving previously
>>advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.
>> 2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or
>more server
>>network  domain nodes that are collectively represented to
>the clients
>>as a single node that exists in the client layer network and
>is capable
>>of terminating of access, inter-domain and virtual links.
>> 3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one or more
>>virtual or real server network domain nodes that exist in the client
>>layer network and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual links.
>> 4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies
>provided by
>>each of server network domains, access and inter-domain links.
>> 5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that link. It
>>can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
>> 6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208
>teminology
>>but (i) receiving virtual topology from the core network and
>requesting
>>the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting the computation and
>>establishment of a path accordingly to gien constraints in the core
>>network and receiving the parameters characterizing such
>path. (ii) =3D=3D
>>UNI.
>> 7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but able to
>>deal with (i) and (ii) above.
>> 8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for signaling
>>and routing messages exchange between Overlay and Core
>network. Routing
>>information consists on virtual topology advertisement. When there is
>>no routing adjacency across the interface it is equivalent to
>the GMPLS
>>UNI defined in 4208.
>>Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information related to
>>path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected SRLG, path
>delay etc,
>>either passed from OE to OC via signaling after the LSP establishment
>>in the core network or from OC to OE to be used as path computation
>>constraints, fall under the definition of signaling info and not
>>routing info).
>> 9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the links
>>between different core networks in the overlay model environment, i.e.
>>Between border OEs. Same features of the ONI apply to this interface.
>>Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name is needed?
>>
>>+ Statements
>> 1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build an overlay
>>topology for the client network domains  2. The overlay topology is
>>comprised of:
>>    a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the
>server network
>>domains). They can be PSC or LSC.
>>    b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server network
>>domains)
>>    c) virtual topology provided by the server network
>domains. Virtual
>>Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) + Connectivity Matrix (with a set of
>>parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments, delay etc for each entry)
>>describing connectivity between access links and virtual links.
>> 3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy  of overlay
>>topologies with overlay/underlay relationships  4. In the context of
>>overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships are
>>peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network integration  5.
>>The overlay model assumes one instance for the client network and a
>>separate instance for the server network and in the ONI case
>the server
>>network also surreptitiously participates in the client network by
>>injecting virtual topology information into it.
>> 6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over
>the ONI (it
>>falls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency is in place
>between OC
>>and OE).
>>
>>+ Open issues/questions
>>
>> 1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about PCE
>and PCEP
>>into the overlay framework context?
>> 2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
>> 3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?
>>
>>+ Appendix:
>>Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>>1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale
>>because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs have the
>>same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs
>>2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is by
>>having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the middle
>>of the virtual topology
>>3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain
>>switches, because, generally speaking:
>>  a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
>>  b)Real switches are named from different naming space
>>  c)real switches individually may not have sufficient resources to
>>terminate virtual links (while a group of real switches collectively
>>will have)
>>  d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual node have
>>better scalability qualities
>>4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real node,
>>you need to keep in mind that real server domain switches are,
>>generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must expose their
>>connectivity matrices
>>5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could
>>potentially go through a real server domain switch, the latter's
>>connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so that the two
>>services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail
>if a single
>>internal element shared by the services fails
>>6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be
>>addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking
>>switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no difference
>>between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
>>7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected to
>>server network domain must be upgraded so that they could understand
>>the connectivity matrices advertised by the border nodes describing
>>connectivity constraints between access links and virtual links they
>>terminate.
>>
>>
>>
>>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>DANIELE CECCARELLI
>>System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro
>>
>>Via E.Melen, 77
>>Genova, Italy
>>Phone +390106002512
>>Mobile +393346725750
>>daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com<mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
>>www.ericsson.com<http://www.ericsson.com>
>>
>>This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive email on
>>the basis of the term set out at www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer<http:/=
/www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>CCAMP mailing list
>>CCAMP@ietf.org<mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org>
>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>
>
_______________________________________________
CCAMP mailing list
CCAMP@ietf.org<mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Define the &#8220;hair-pi=
nning&#8221;, please<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Snigdho =
Bardalai [mailto:sbardalai1@gmail.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 20, 2012 4:34 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Igor Bryskin<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Daniele Ceccarelli; Gert Grammel; CCAMP<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Igor,<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think depending on what the capabilities of the OE=
 are there may be many possibilities. Expanding on your VN examples.<o:p></=
o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Another example could be:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">OC1-----VN1 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;VN3-----OC2=
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; VN1=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">OC5-----VN1 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;VN3-----OC6=
<br>
OC3-----VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4-----OC4<o:p></o:p></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Since virtual-links are potential links the topology=
 would have to be a mesh between the VNs. The other question that is applic=
able here is whether hair-pinning is allowed in a VN?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">OC1-----VN1 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;VN3-----OC2=
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; VN1=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">OC5-----VN1 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;VN3-----OC6=
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; VN1=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL3=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; VN1=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL4=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN5<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">OC3-----VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN=
4-----OC4<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;VN2=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL5=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN5<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;VN2=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL6=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Snigdho<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 8:01 AM, Igor Bryskin &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com" target=3D"_blank">IBryskin@advaop=
tical.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Daniele,<br>
It seems we have a disconnect here.<br>
<br>
OC1-----OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DOE2-----OC2<br>
OC3-----OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DOE2-----OC4<br>
<br>
Generally speaking OEs are blocking switches, and the connectivity matrices=
 need to be advertised by OEs, so that the client path computer will know ,=
 for example, that OC1-OE1 access link can be switched to VL1 (but not to V=
L2). One way to alleviate the client
 path computation from dealing with connectivity matrices is by presenting =
OEs as sets of independent fully symmetrical Virtual Nodes:<br>
<br>
OC1-----VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3-----OC2<br>
OC3-----VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4-----OC4<br>
<span style=3D"color:#888888"><br>
<span class=3D"hoenzb">Igor</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@erics=
son.com">daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com</a>]<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 4:41 AM<br>
To: Igor Bryskin; Gert Grammel; CCAMP<br>
Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
<br>
Hi Igor,<br>
<br>
Unfortunately your drawing is totally misaligned, is this a correct re-draw=
ing?<br>
<br>
OC1------If1:OE1 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;OE2:IF4---------OC2<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;OE1:If2----------------- If=
3:OE2<br>
<br>
answer : is neither a), b) nor c)<br>
<br>
OC1------If1:OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF4---------OC2<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;OE1:If2----------------- If=
3:OE2<br>
<br>
With respect to Q2:<br>
<br>
&gt;Q2: if on the other side we considered the virtual link being<br>
&gt;B) (i.e. From IF1 to IF4 hence with an &quot;implicit&quot; node<br>
&gt;connectivity matrix) which would be the drawbacks of this solution?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; &nbsp;VL cannot start on a customer facing interface. OE is =
a<br>
&gt;(blocking)<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; switch between access and virtual TE links<br>
<br>
I still believe the tranffic matrix can be implicitely advertised as part o=
f the VL. Consider this:<br>
<br>
OC3------If5:OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL1 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF6---------OC4<br>
OC1------If1:OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL2 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF4---------OC2<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;OE1:If2-------------------I=
f3:OE2<br>
<br>
OE1 is a blocking node because only allows OC3 to be connected to VL1 and O=
C1 to VL2. But if you just advertise VL1 to OC3 (not VL2) and VL2 to OC1 (n=
ot VL1) aren't you implicitely hiding the blocking nature of OE1?<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Daniele<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt;-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com">=
IBryskin@advaoptical.com</a>]<br>
&gt;Sent: mercoled=EC 19 dicembre 2012 18.03<br>
&gt;To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Gert Grammel; CCAMP<br>
&gt;Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Daniele,<br>
&gt;Please, see in line.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@e=
ricsson.com">daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com</a>]<br>
&gt;Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 9:53 AM<br>
&gt;To: Igor Bryskin; Gert Grammel; CCAMP<br>
&gt;Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Hi Igor,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Just focusing on the virtual links for a while; i must admit<br>
&gt;that i'm a bit confused by your last mail. Let's pick the<br>
&gt;figure i sent.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;OC1 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; OC2<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;\ &nbsp; &nbsp;&#43;---&#43;IF2 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; IF3&#43=
;---&#43; &nbsp; &nbsp;/<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp; \IF1|OE1|-------------|OE2|IF4/<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &#43;---&#43; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &#43;---&#43;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;A) Virtual link is from OC1 to OC2<br>
&gt;&gt;B) Virtual link is from IF1 to IF4<br>
&gt;&gt;C) Virtual link is from IF2 to IF3<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; My understanding of your picture is this:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;OC1------If1:OE1<br>
&gt;OE2:IF4---------OC2<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2 My<br>
&gt;answer : is neither a), b) nor c)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;OC1------If1:OE1 &nbsp;=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF4=
---------OC2<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;VL is between OE1 and OE 2, potential server trail is between<br>
&gt;IF2 and IF3<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;According to the definition given:<br>
&gt;&quot;A virtual link is a potential path between two virtual or<br>
&gt;real network elements in a client layer&quot;<br>
&gt;I would say that a virtual link is from OC1 to OC2, which is A).<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; See above<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Then, from your latest definition:<br>
&gt;&quot; a potential path between two virtual or real server domain<br>
&gt;network elements&quot;<br>
&gt;I would say that a virtual link can be either B) or C).<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; See above<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Then you speak about access links, which implies that the link<br>
&gt;between OC1 and OE1 has its own dignity and hence that the<br>
&gt;virtual link is C) in picture above.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; Links OC1- OE1 and OC2-OE2 are access links<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Now i have 2 questions:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Q1: can you confirm that a virtual link is C)? Then we need to<br>
&gt;update the definition of a virtual link removing any<br>
&gt;misleading reference to client/server domain Network elements<br>
&gt;and speak about OCs and OEs.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Q2: if on the other side we considered the virtual link being<br>
&gt;B) (i.e. From IF1 to IF4 hence with an &quot;implicit&quot; node<br>
&gt;connectivity matrix) which would be the drawbacks of this solution?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; &nbsp;VL cannot start on a customer facing interface. OE is =
a<br>
&gt;(blocking)<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; switch between access and virtual TE links<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Thanks<br>
&gt;Daniele<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;&gt;From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.c=
om">IBryskin@advaoptical.com</a>]<br>
&gt;&gt;Sent: luned=EC 17 dicembre 2012 21.12<br>
&gt;&gt;To: Gert Grammel; Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP<br>
&gt;&gt;Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Gert,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Please, see in line. I disagree with pretty much everything you say=
.<br>
&gt;&gt;Igor<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;&gt;From: <a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.=
org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@iet=
f.org</a>]<br>
&gt;On Behalf<br>
&gt;&gt;Of Gert Grammel<br>
&gt;&gt;Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 8:27 AM<br>
&gt;&gt;To: Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP<br>
&gt;&gt;Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Daniele,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Thank you for summarizing the current state of discussion. To move<=
br>
&gt;&gt;forward and to encourage comments, let me point to some of the issu=
es<br>
&gt;&gt;that are debated:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;1) Virtual Link: in the terminology statement a virtual link seems =
to<br>
&gt;&gt;connect two client elements.<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; The definition says:<br>
&gt;&gt;&quot;1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between t=
wo<br>
&gt;&gt;virtual or real network elements in a client layer&quot;, what make=
s you<br>
&gt;&gt;think that anyone ever applied that this is a path between client<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;devices? The definition should say, though: &quot; a potential<br>
&gt;path between<br>
&gt;&gt;two virtual or real server domain network elements&quot;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; However later on the 3) virtual topology is composed of access lin=
ks<br>
&gt;&gt;and virtual links. Hence. Virtual links connect server nodes, not<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;client nodes.<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; see above<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; By doing so, segments (AL and VL) are created.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;2) The scalability consideration in the appendix for VL is based on=
<br>
&gt;&gt;terminology 1) rather than on virtual topology<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; I completely disagree with this, see below<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;3). This way it doesn't describe then the &nbsp;scalability of a vi=
rtual<br>
&gt;&gt;topology (which doesn't necessitate a full mesh) but rather that of=
 a<br>
&gt;&gt;virtual node (which implies a full connectivity matrix).<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;To sum up:<br>
&gt;&gt;1) we have to come up with a crisp definition of a VL in a virtual<=
br>
&gt;&gt;topology that is different from a terminology 1) VL.<br>
&gt;&gt;Here is a gap<br>
&gt;&gt;2) A Model based on a vitual node or 'terminology 1) links'<br>
&gt;&gt;create n**2 problems on client side and does not scale.<br>
&gt;&gt;3) 'VNT'-virtual-links 3) and access links are supposed to<br>
&gt;address the<br>
&gt;&gt;scaling problem. We need to clean up our terminology.<br>
&gt;Otherwise we end<br>
&gt;&gt;up associating limitations of terminology 1) links with<br>
&gt;VNT-links that<br>
&gt;&gt;address those limitations.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; It seems to me that you completely misunderstand current=
<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; definitions<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Now looking at the appendix it sadly reflects the terminology<br>
&gt;confusion<br>
&gt;&gt;and jumps to assessment and conclusions. That's unfortunate:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;The first line says:<br>
&gt;&gt;Some notes on the Virtual Node:<br>
&gt;&gt;1. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Virtual Link Model along, sadly,<br>
&gt;&gt;--&gt; is it now about virtual nodes or virtual links or VNT links?=
<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; Virtual Link Model includes access, inter-domain and<br>
&gt;&gt;virtual links<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; but does not include virtual nodes<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;2. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual L=
inks is by<br>
&gt;&gt;having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the midd=
le<br>
&gt;&gt;of the virtual topology<br>
&gt;&gt;--&gt; that's why access links are so useful. They end at server no=
des<br>
&gt;&gt;--&gt; which are connected via virtual links<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; A combination of access and virtual links alone *does no=
t<br>
&gt;&gt;address N**2 problem*.<br>
&gt;&gt;Consider 1000 client devices connected via 1000 access links to the=
<br>
&gt;&gt;network that need to be fully interconnected. You will need<br>
&gt;1000000 VLs<br>
&gt;&gt;to do so. You need to have one or more Virtual Nodes in the middle =
of<br>
&gt;&gt;the virtual topology to solve this issue. Overlay Network Topology =
is<br>
&gt;&gt;no different from real network topology, and real network<br>
&gt;topologies do<br>
&gt;&gt;include Ps, not just PEs<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;3. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;These intermediate nodes cannot be real serv=
er domain<br>
&gt;&gt;switches, because, generally speaking:<br>
&gt;&gt;--&gt; in case of VNT-VLs no intermediate nodes are necessarily req=
uired<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; See &nbsp;above, IMO you are dead wrong<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;4. &nbsp;--&gt; No need to comment, this way doesn't scale anyway.<=
br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; ONTs with virtual nodes scale no worse that real network=
<br>
&gt;&gt;topologies<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;5. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths t=
hat could<br>
&gt;&gt;potentially go through a real server domain switch, the latter's<br=
>
&gt;&gt;connectivity matrix must expose &quot;internal&quot; SRLGs, so that=
 the two<br>
&gt;&gt;services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail<br>
&gt;if a single<br>
&gt;&gt;internal element shared by the services fails<br>
&gt;&gt;--&gt; who is 'you' that computes? A client selects among VNT<br>
&gt;&gt;virtual links based on exposed SRLGs, VLs are computed by the serve=
r<br>
&gt;&gt;with full knowledge of constraints. So what does an 'internal' SRLG=
<br>
&gt;&gt;mean to a server path computation?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; You is the client path computer. If the two paths are<br=
>
&gt;&gt;going through<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; the same node, they may overlap inside the node, which<b=
r>
&gt;means they<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; can be brought down by a single network failure. That's =
why you<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; need to expose &nbsp;node's internal SRLGs or try to fin=
d node<br>
&gt;&gt;disjoint<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; paths (which may not be available)<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;6. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;If you walk through all cases that need to b=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking=
<br>
&gt;&gt;switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no differenc=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;between a virtual node and real blocking real node.<br>
&gt;&gt;--&gt; I suggest to model a complete network of say 5 nodes in a<br=
>
&gt;&gt;single VN and compare it with the model of a single real node.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; Please, do that<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;--&gt; The assessments made have used a terminology definition<br>
&gt;&gt;that doesn't really capture the case made for VNT-VLs.<br>
&gt;&gt;That's why I would have had appreciated to split definitions and wo=
rk<br>
&gt;&gt;items agreed among a group from individual assessments in separate<=
br>
&gt;&gt;emails.<br>
&gt;&gt;Nevertheless I consider the first part of your email (all except th=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;appendix) as a good starting point for further clarification.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Gert<br>
&gt;&gt;________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt;From: <a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.=
org</a> on behalf of Daniele Ceccarelli<br>
&gt;&gt;Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 12:17:08 PM<br>
&gt;&gt;To: CCAMP<br>
&gt;&gt;Subject: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Dear CCAMPers,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the Overlay model=
<br>
&gt;&gt;framework and related works took place. Some discussions led to som=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;sort of agreemet among a small group of people, some others<br>
&gt;to a set a<br>
&gt;&gt;viable options, some others to totally open issues. I tried to<br>
&gt;&gt;summarize the output of such discussions below so to progress the<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;discussions into a single thread on the WG ML.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a well shap=
ed<br>
&gt;&gt;and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to provide the basis for<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea (step 1) instead of=
<br>
&gt;&gt;starting it from scratch (step 0).<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a proposal of t=
he<br>
&gt;&gt;overlay scenario.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt;Daniele<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&#43; Disclaimer:<br>
&gt;&gt; 1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work can be=
<br>
&gt;&gt;extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&#43; Terminology:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; 1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between two<br=
>
&gt;&gt;virtual or real network elements in a client layer network &nbsp;th=
at is<br>
&gt;&gt;maintained/controlled in and by the server domain control<br>
&gt;plane (and as<br>
&gt;&gt;such cannot transport any traffic/data and protected from being<br>
&gt;&gt;de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the data plane (an=
d<br>
&gt;&gt;then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving previousl=
y<br>
&gt;&gt;advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.<br>
&gt;&gt; 2. &nbsp;Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or<br>
&gt;more server<br>
&gt;&gt;network &nbsp;domain nodes that are collectively represented to<br>
&gt;the clients<br>
&gt;&gt;as a single node that exists in the client layer network and<br>
&gt;is capable<br>
&gt;&gt;of terminating of access, inter-domain and virtual links.<br>
&gt;&gt; 3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one or mor=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;virtual or real server network domain nodes that exist in the clien=
t<br>
&gt;&gt;layer network and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual links.<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; 4. Overlay topology: &nbsp;is a superset of virtual topologies<br>
&gt;provided by<br>
&gt;&gt;each of server network domains, access and inter-domain links.<br>
&gt;&gt; 5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that link. I=
t<br>
&gt;&gt;can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.<br>
&gt;&gt; 6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208<br>
&gt;teminology<br>
&gt;&gt;but (i) receiving virtual topology from the core network and<br>
&gt;requesting<br>
&gt;&gt;the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting the computation and<br=
>
&gt;&gt;establishment of a path accordingly to gien constraints in the core=
<br>
&gt;&gt;network and receiving the parameters characterizing such<br>
&gt;path. (ii) =3D=3D<br>
&gt;&gt;UNI.<br>
&gt;&gt; 7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but able to=
<br>
&gt;&gt;deal with (i) and (ii) above.<br>
&gt;&gt; 8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for signali=
ng<br>
&gt;&gt;and routing messages exchange between Overlay and Core<br>
&gt;network. Routing<br>
&gt;&gt;information consists on virtual topology advertisement. When there =
is<br>
&gt;&gt;no routing adjacency across the interface it is equivalent to<br>
&gt;the GMPLS<br>
&gt;&gt;UNI defined in 4208.<br>
&gt;&gt;Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information related =
to<br>
&gt;&gt;path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected SRLG, path<br>
&gt;delay etc,<br>
&gt;&gt;either passed from OE to OC via signaling after the LSP establishme=
nt<br>
&gt;&gt;in the core network or from OC to OE to be used as path computation=
<br>
&gt;&gt;constraints, fall under the definition of signaling info and not<br=
>
&gt;&gt;routing info).<br>
&gt;&gt; 9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the links<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;between different core networks in the overlay model environment, i=
.e.<br>
&gt;&gt;Between border OEs. Same features of the ONI apply to this interfac=
e.<br>
&gt;&gt;Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name is needed?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&#43; Statements<br>
&gt;&gt; 1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build an overl=
ay<br>
&gt;&gt;topology for the client network domains &nbsp;2. The overlay topolo=
gy is<br>
&gt;&gt;comprised of:<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the<b=
r>
&gt;server network<br>
&gt;&gt;domains). They can be PSC or LSC.<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server n=
etwork<br>
&gt;&gt;domains)<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;c) virtual topology provided by the server network<br=
>
&gt;domains. Virtual<br>
&gt;&gt;Links &#43; Virtual Nodes (TBD) &#43; Connectivity Matrix (with a s=
et of<br>
&gt;&gt;parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments, delay etc for each entry=
)<br>
&gt;&gt;describing connectivity between access links and virtual links.<br>
&gt;&gt; 3. In the context of overlay model we manage &nbsp;hierarchy &nbsp=
;of overlay<br>
&gt;&gt;topologies with overlay/underlay relationships &nbsp;4. In the cont=
ext of<br>
&gt;&gt;overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships are<br>
&gt;&gt;peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network integration =
&nbsp;5.<br>
&gt;&gt;The overlay model assumes one instance for the client network and a=
<br>
&gt;&gt;separate instance for the server network and in the ONI case<br>
&gt;the server<br>
&gt;&gt;network also surreptitiously participates in the client network by<=
br>
&gt;&gt;injecting virtual topology information into it.<br>
&gt;&gt; 6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over<br>
&gt;the ONI (it<br>
&gt;&gt;falls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency is in place<br>
&gt;between OC<br>
&gt;&gt;and OE).<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&#43; Open issues/questions<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; 1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about PCE<br>
&gt;and PCEP<br>
&gt;&gt;into the overlay framework context?<br>
&gt;&gt; 2. BGP-LS needs to be considered<br>
&gt;&gt; 3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&#43; Appendix:<br>
&gt;&gt;Some notes on the Virtual Node:<br>
&gt;&gt;1. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not sc=
ale<br>
&gt;&gt;because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs have th=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs<br>
&gt;&gt;2. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual L=
inks is by<br>
&gt;&gt;having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the midd=
le<br>
&gt;&gt;of the virtual topology<br>
&gt;&gt;3. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;These intermediate nodes cannot be real serv=
er domain<br>
&gt;&gt;switches, because, generally speaking:<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;a)Real switches belong to different layer network;<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;b)Real switches are named from different naming space<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;c)real switches individually may not have sufficient resourc=
es to<br>
&gt;&gt;terminate virtual links (while a group of real switches collectivel=
y<br>
&gt;&gt;will have)<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual no=
de have<br>
&gt;&gt;better scalability qualities<br>
&gt;&gt;4. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Even if you map a virtual node on a single r=
eal node,<br>
&gt;&gt;you need to keep in mind that real server domain switches are,<br>
&gt;&gt;generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must expose their=
<br>
&gt;&gt;connectivity matrices<br>
&gt;&gt;5. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths t=
hat could<br>
&gt;&gt;potentially go through a real server domain switch, the latter's<br=
>
&gt;&gt;connectivity matrix must expose &quot;internal&quot; SRLGs, so that=
 the two<br>
&gt;&gt;services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail<br>
&gt;if a single<br>
&gt;&gt;internal element shared by the services fails<br>
&gt;&gt;6. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;If you walk through all cases that need to b=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking=
<br>
&gt;&gt;switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no differenc=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;between a virtual node and real blocking real node.<br>
&gt;&gt;7. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs co=
nnected to<br>
&gt;&gt;server network domain must be upgraded so that they could understan=
d<br>
&gt;&gt;the connectivity matrices advertised by the border nodes describing=
<br>
&gt;&gt;connectivity constraints between access links and virtual links the=
y<br>
&gt;&gt;terminate.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
&gt;&gt;DANIELE CECCARELLI<br>
&gt;&gt;System &amp; Technology - PDU Optical &amp; Metro<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Via E.Melen, 77<br>
&gt;&gt;Genova, Italy<br>
&gt;&gt;Phone &#43;390106002512<br>
&gt;&gt;Mobile &#43;393346725750<br>
&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com">daniele.ceccarel=
li@ericsson.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"http://www.ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">www.ericsson.=
com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive email =
on<br>
&gt;&gt;the basis of the term set out at <a href=3D"http://www.ericsson.com=
/email_disclaimer" target=3D"_blank">
www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;_______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt;CCAMP mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org">CCAMP@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp" target=3D"_=
blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
CCAMP mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org">CCAMP@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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To: Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>, Snigdho Bardalai <sbardalai1@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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OC1-----VN1                              VN3-----OC2
            VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3
OC5-----VN1                              VN3-----OC6
            VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL3=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4
            VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL4=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN5
OC3-----VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4-----OC4
           VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL5=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN5
           VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL6=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3

Consider the picture above, by hair-pining I am referring to a path such as=
 OC1-VN1-VL3-VN4-VL2-VN2-OC3, of course assuming bandwidth is available.

From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of I=
gor Bryskin
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 1:47 PM
To: Snigdho Bardalai
Cc: CCAMP
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context

Define the "hair-pinning", please

From: Snigdho Bardalai [mailto:sbardalai1@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 4:34 PM
To: Igor Bryskin
Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Gert Grammel; CCAMP
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context

Igor,

I think depending on what the capabilities of the OE are there may be many =
possibilities. Expanding on your VN examples.

Another example could be:

OC1-----VN1                              VN3-----OC2
            VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3
OC5-----VN1                              VN3-----OC6
OC3-----VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4-----OC4

Since virtual-links are potential links the topology would have to be a mes=
h between the VNs. The other question that is applicable here is whether ha=
ir-pinning is allowed in a VN?

OC1-----VN1                              VN3-----OC2
            VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3
OC5-----VN1                              VN3-----OC6
            VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL3=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4
            VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL4=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN5
OC3-----VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4-----OC4
           VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL5=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN5
           VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL6=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3

Regards
Snigdho

On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 8:01 AM, Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com<mai=
lto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com>> wrote:
Daniele,
It seems we have a disconnect here.

OC1-----OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DOE2-----OC2
OC3-----OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DOE2-----OC4

Generally speaking OEs are blocking switches, and the connectivity matrices=
 need to be advertised by OEs, so that the client path computer will know ,=
 for example, that OC1-OE1 access link can be switched to VL1 (but not to V=
L2). One way to alleviate the client path computation from dealing with con=
nectivity matrices is by presenting OEs as sets of independent fully symmet=
rical Virtual Nodes:

OC1-----VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3-----OC2
OC3-----VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4-----OC4

Igor

-----Original Message-----
From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com<mailto:dan=
iele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>]
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 4:41 AM
To: Igor Bryskin; Gert Grammel; CCAMP
Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context

Hi Igor,

Unfortunately your drawing is totally misaligned, is this a correct re-draw=
ing?

OC1------If1:OE1                          OE2:IF4---------OC2
             OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2

answer : is neither a), b) nor c)

OC1------If1:OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF4---------OC2
             OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2

With respect to Q2:

>Q2: if on the other side we considered the virtual link being
>B) (i.e. From IF1 to IF4 hence with an "implicit" node
>connectivity matrix) which would be the drawbacks of this solution?
>
>IB>>  VL cannot start on a customer facing interface. OE is a
>(blocking)
>IB>> switch between access and virtual TE links

I still believe the tranffic matrix can be implicitely advertised as part o=
f the VL. Consider this:

OC3------If5:OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL1 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF6---------OC4
OC1------If1:OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL2 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF4---------OC2
             OE1:If2-------------------If3:OE2

OE1 is a blocking node because only allows OC3 to be connected to VL1 and O=
C1 to VL2. But if you just advertise VL1 to OC3 (not VL2) and VL2 to OC1 (n=
ot VL1) aren't you implicitely hiding the blocking nature of OE1?

Cheers,
Daniele


>-----Original Message-----
>From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com<mailto:IBryskin@advaop=
tical.com>]
>Sent: mercoled=EC 19 dicembre 2012 18.03
>To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Gert Grammel; CCAMP
>Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>Daniele,
>Please, see in line.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com<mailto:da=
niele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>]
>Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 9:53 AM
>To: Igor Bryskin; Gert Grammel; CCAMP
>Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>Hi Igor,
>
>Just focusing on the virtual links for a while; i must admit
>that i'm a bit confused by your last mail. Let's pick the
>figure i sent.
>
>>OC1                               OC2
>>  \    +---+IF2       IF3+---+    /
>>   \IF1|OE1|-------------|OE2|IF4/
>>       +---+             +---+
>>
>>A) Virtual link is from OC1 to OC2
>>B) Virtual link is from IF1 to IF4
>>C) Virtual link is from IF2 to IF3
>
>IB>> My understanding of your picture is this:
>
>OC1------If1:OE1
>OE2:IF4---------OC2
>                       OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2 My
>answer : is neither a), b) nor c)
>
>OC1------If1:OE1  =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF4--------=
-OC2
>                       OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2
>
>VL is between OE1 and OE 2, potential server trail is between
>IF2 and IF3
>
>According to the definition given:
>"A virtual link is a potential path between two virtual or
>real network elements in a client layer"
>I would say that a virtual link is from OC1 to OC2, which is A).
>
>IB>> See above
>
>Then, from your latest definition:
>" a potential path between two virtual or real server domain
>network elements"
>I would say that a virtual link can be either B) or C).
>IB>> See above
>
>Then you speak about access links, which implies that the link
>between OC1 and OE1 has its own dignity and hence that the
>virtual link is C) in picture above.
>
>IB>> Links OC1- OE1 and OC2-OE2 are access links
>
>Now i have 2 questions:
>
>Q1: can you confirm that a virtual link is C)? Then we need to
>update the definition of a virtual link removing any
>misleading reference to client/server domain Network elements
>and speak about OCs and OEs.
>
>Q2: if on the other side we considered the virtual link being
>B) (i.e. From IF1 to IF4 hence with an "implicit" node
>connectivity matrix) which would be the drawbacks of this solution?
>
>IB>>  VL cannot start on a customer facing interface. OE is a
>(blocking)
>IB>> switch between access and virtual TE links
>
>
>Thanks
>Daniele
>
>
>
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com<mailto:IBryskin@advao=
ptical.com>]
>>Sent: luned=EC 17 dicembre 2012 21.12
>>To: Gert Grammel; Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP
>>Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>
>>Gert,
>>
>>Please, see in line. I disagree with pretty much everything you say.
>>Igor
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:ccamp=
-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org>]
>On Behalf
>>Of Gert Grammel
>>Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 8:27 AM
>>To: Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP
>>Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>
>>Daniele,
>>
>>Thank you for summarizing the current state of discussion. To move
>>forward and to encourage comments, let me point to some of the issues
>>that are debated:
>>
>>1) Virtual Link: in the terminology statement a virtual link seems to
>>connect two client elements.
>>IB>> The definition says:
>>"1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between two
>>virtual or real network elements in a client layer", what makes you
>>think that anyone ever applied that this is a path between client
>>devices? The definition should say, though: " a potential
>path between
>>two virtual or real server domain network elements"
>>
>> However later on the 3) virtual topology is composed of access links
>>and virtual links. Hence. Virtual links connect server nodes, not
>>client nodes.
>>IB>> see above
>>
>> By doing so, segments (AL and VL) are created.
>>
>>2) The scalability consideration in the appendix for VL is based on
>>terminology 1) rather than on virtual topology
>>
>>IB>> I completely disagree with this, see below
>>
>>3). This way it doesn't describe then the  scalability of a virtual
>>topology (which doesn't necessitate a full mesh) but rather that of a
>>virtual node (which implies a full connectivity matrix).
>>
>>To sum up:
>>1) we have to come up with a crisp definition of a VL in a virtual
>>topology that is different from a terminology 1) VL.
>>Here is a gap
>>2) A Model based on a vitual node or 'terminology 1) links'
>>create n**2 problems on client side and does not scale.
>>3) 'VNT'-virtual-links 3) and access links are supposed to
>address the
>>scaling problem. We need to clean up our terminology.
>Otherwise we end
>>up associating limitations of terminology 1) links with
>VNT-links that
>>address those limitations.
>>
>>IB>> It seems to me that you completely misunderstand current
>>IB>> definitions
>>
>>Now looking at the appendix it sadly reflects the terminology
>confusion
>>and jumps to assessment and conclusions. That's unfortunate:
>>
>>The first line says:
>>Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>>1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly,
>>--> is it now about virtual nodes or virtual links or VNT links?
>>IB>> Virtual Link Model includes access, inter-domain and
>>virtual links
>>IB>> but does not include virtual nodes
>>
>>2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is by
>>having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the middle
>>of the virtual topology
>>--> that's why access links are so useful. They end at server nodes
>>--> which are connected via virtual links
>>
>>IB>> A combination of access and virtual links alone *does not
>>address N**2 problem*.
>>Consider 1000 client devices connected via 1000 access links to the
>>network that need to be fully interconnected. You will need
>1000000 VLs
>>to do so. You need to have one or more Virtual Nodes in the middle of
>>the virtual topology to solve this issue. Overlay Network Topology is
>>no different from real network topology, and real network
>topologies do
>>include Ps, not just PEs
>>
>>3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain
>>switches, because, generally speaking:
>>--> in case of VNT-VLs no intermediate nodes are necessarily required
>>IB>> See  above, IMO you are dead wrong
>>
>>4.  --> No need to comment, this way doesn't scale anyway.
>>IB>> ONTs with virtual nodes scale no worse that real network
>>topologies
>>
>>5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could
>>potentially go through a real server domain switch, the latter's
>>connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so that the two
>>services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail
>if a single
>>internal element shared by the services fails
>>--> who is 'you' that computes? A client selects among VNT
>>virtual links based on exposed SRLGs, VLs are computed by the server
>>with full knowledge of constraints. So what does an 'internal' SRLG
>>mean to a server path computation?
>>
>>IB>> You is the client path computer. If the two paths are
>>going through
>>IB>> the same node, they may overlap inside the node, which
>means they
>>IB>> can be brought down by a single network failure. That's why you
>>IB>> need to expose  node's internal SRLGs or try to find node
>>disjoint
>>IB>> paths (which may not be available)
>>
>>6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be
>>addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking
>>switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no difference
>>between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
>>--> I suggest to model a complete network of say 5 nodes in a
>>single VN and compare it with the model of a single real node.
>>
>>IB>> Please, do that
>>
>>--> The assessments made have used a terminology definition
>>that doesn't really capture the case made for VNT-VLs.
>>That's why I would have had appreciated to split definitions and work
>>items agreed among a group from individual assessments in separate
>>emails.
>>Nevertheless I consider the first part of your email (all except the
>>appendix) as a good starting point for further clarification.
>>
>>Gert
>>________________________________________
>>From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of =
Daniele Ceccarelli
>>Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 12:17:08 PM
>>To: CCAMP
>>Subject: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>
>>Dear CCAMPers,
>>
>>In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the Overlay model
>>framework and related works took place. Some discussions led to some
>>sort of agreemet among a small group of people, some others
>to a set a
>>viable options, some others to totally open issues. I tried to
>>summarize the output of such discussions below so to progress the
>>discussions into a single thread on the WG ML.
>>
>>Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a well shaped
>>and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to provide the basis for
>>starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea (step 1) instead of
>>starting it from scratch (step 0).
>>
>>In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a proposal of the
>>overlay scenario.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Daniele
>>
>>+ Disclaimer:
>> 1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work can be
>>extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.
>>
>>+ Terminology:
>>
>> 1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between two
>>virtual or real network elements in a client layer network  that is
>>maintained/controlled in and by the server domain control
>plane (and as
>>such cannot transport any traffic/data and protected from being
>>de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the data plane (and
>>then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving previously
>>advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.
>> 2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or
>more server
>>network  domain nodes that are collectively represented to
>the clients
>>as a single node that exists in the client layer network and
>is capable
>>of terminating of access, inter-domain and virtual links.
>> 3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one or more
>>virtual or real server network domain nodes that exist in the client
>>layer network and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual links.
>> 4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies
>provided by
>>each of server network domains, access and inter-domain links.
>> 5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that link. It
>>can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
>> 6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208
>teminology
>>but (i) receiving virtual topology from the core network and
>requesting
>>the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting the computation and
>>establishment of a path accordingly to gien constraints in the core
>>network and receiving the parameters characterizing such
>path. (ii) =3D=3D
>>UNI.
>> 7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but able to
>>deal with (i) and (ii) above.
>> 8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for signaling
>>and routing messages exchange between Overlay and Core
>network. Routing
>>information consists on virtual topology advertisement. When there is
>>no routing adjacency across the interface it is equivalent to
>the GMPLS
>>UNI defined in 4208.
>>Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information related to
>>path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected SRLG, path
>delay etc,
>>either passed from OE to OC via signaling after the LSP establishment
>>in the core network or from OC to OE to be used as path computation
>>constraints, fall under the definition of signaling info and not
>>routing info).
>> 9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the links
>>between different core networks in the overlay model environment, i.e.
>>Between border OEs. Same features of the ONI apply to this interface.
>>Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name is needed?
>>
>>+ Statements
>> 1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build an overlay
>>topology for the client network domains  2. The overlay topology is
>>comprised of:
>>    a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the
>server network
>>domains). They can be PSC or LSC.
>>    b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server network
>>domains)
>>    c) virtual topology provided by the server network
>domains. Virtual
>>Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) + Connectivity Matrix (with a set of
>>parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments, delay etc for each entry)
>>describing connectivity between access links and virtual links.
>> 3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy  of overlay
>>topologies with overlay/underlay relationships  4. In the context of
>>overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships are
>>peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network integration  5.
>>The overlay model assumes one instance for the client network and a
>>separate instance for the server network and in the ONI case
>the server
>>network also surreptitiously participates in the client network by
>>injecting virtual topology information into it.
>> 6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over
>the ONI (it
>>falls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency is in place
>between OC
>>and OE).
>>
>>+ Open issues/questions
>>
>> 1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about PCE
>and PCEP
>>into the overlay framework context?
>> 2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
>> 3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?
>>
>>+ Appendix:
>>Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>>1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale
>>because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs have the
>>same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs
>>2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is by
>>having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the middle
>>of the virtual topology
>>3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain
>>switches, because, generally speaking:
>>  a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
>>  b)Real switches are named from different naming space
>>  c)real switches individually may not have sufficient resources to
>>terminate virtual links (while a group of real switches collectively
>>will have)
>>  d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual node have
>>better scalability qualities
>>4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real node,
>>you need to keep in mind that real server domain switches are,
>>generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must expose their
>>connectivity matrices
>>5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could
>>potentially go through a real server domain switch, the latter's
>>connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so that the two
>>services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail
>if a single
>>internal element shared by the services fails
>>6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be
>>addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking
>>switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no difference
>>between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
>>7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected to
>>server network domain must be upgraded so that they could understand
>>the connectivity matrices advertised by the border nodes describing
>>connectivity constraints between access links and virtual links they
>>terminate.
>>
>>
>>
>>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>DANIELE CECCARELLI
>>System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro
>>
>>Via E.Melen, 77
>>Genova, Italy
>>Phone +390106002512
>>Mobile +393346725750
>>daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com<mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
>>www.ericsson.com<http://www.ericsson.com>
>>
>>This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive email on
>>the basis of the term set out at www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer<http:/=
/www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>CCAMP mailing list
>>CCAMP@ietf.org<mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org>
>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>
>
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">OC1-----VN1 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;VN3-----OC2=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; VN1=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">OC5-----VN1 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;VN3-----OC6=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; VN1=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL3=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; VN1=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL4=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN5<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">OC3-----VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN=
4-----OC4<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;VN2=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL5=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN5<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;VN2=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL6=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Consider the picture abov=
e, by hair-pining I am referring to a path such as OC1-VN1-VL3-VN4-VL2-VN2-=
OC3, of course assuming bandwidth is available.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> ccamp-bo=
unces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Igor Bryskin<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 20, 2012 1:47 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Snigdho Bardalai<br>
<b>Cc:</b> CCAMP<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Define the &#8220;hair-pi=
nning&#8221;, please</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Snigdho =
Bardalai [<a href=3D"mailto:sbardalai1@gmail.com">mailto:sbardalai1@gmail.c=
om</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 20, 2012 4:34 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Igor Bryskin<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Daniele Ceccarelli; Gert Grammel; CCAMP<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context</span><o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Igor,<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think depending on what the capabilities of the OE=
 are there may be many possibilities. Expanding on your VN examples.<o:p></=
o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Another example could be:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">OC1-----VN1 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;VN3-----OC2=
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; VN1=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">OC5-----VN1 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;VN3-----OC6=
<br>
OC3-----VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4-----OC4<o:p></o:p></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Since virtual-links are potential links the topology=
 would have to be a mesh between the VNs. The other question that is applic=
able here is whether hair-pinning is allowed in a VN?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">OC1-----VN1 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;VN3-----OC2=
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; VN1=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">OC5-----VN1 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;VN3-----OC6=
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; VN1=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL3=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; VN1=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL4=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN5<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">OC3-----VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN=
4-----OC4<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;VN2=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL5=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN5<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;VN2=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL6=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Snigdho<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 8:01 AM, Igor Bryskin &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com" target=3D"_blank">IBryskin@advaop=
tical.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Daniele,<br>
It seems we have a disconnect here.<br>
<br>
OC1-----OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DOE2-----OC2<br>
OC3-----OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DOE2-----OC4<br>
<br>
Generally speaking OEs are blocking switches, and the connectivity matrices=
 need to be advertised by OEs, so that the client path computer will know ,=
 for example, that OC1-OE1 access link can be switched to VL1 (but not to V=
L2). One way to alleviate the client
 path computation from dealing with connectivity matrices is by presenting =
OEs as sets of independent fully symmetrical Virtual Nodes:<br>
<br>
OC1-----VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3-----OC2<br>
OC3-----VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4-----OC4<br>
<span style=3D"color:#888888"><br>
<span class=3D"hoenzb">Igor</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@erics=
son.com">daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com</a>]<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 4:41 AM<br>
To: Igor Bryskin; Gert Grammel; CCAMP<br>
Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
<br>
Hi Igor,<br>
<br>
Unfortunately your drawing is totally misaligned, is this a correct re-draw=
ing?<br>
<br>
OC1------If1:OE1 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;OE2:IF4---------OC2<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;OE1:If2----------------- If=
3:OE2<br>
<br>
answer : is neither a), b) nor c)<br>
<br>
OC1------If1:OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF4---------OC2<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;OE1:If2----------------- If=
3:OE2<br>
<br>
With respect to Q2:<br>
<br>
&gt;Q2: if on the other side we considered the virtual link being<br>
&gt;B) (i.e. From IF1 to IF4 hence with an &quot;implicit&quot; node<br>
&gt;connectivity matrix) which would be the drawbacks of this solution?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; &nbsp;VL cannot start on a customer facing interface. OE is =
a<br>
&gt;(blocking)<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; switch between access and virtual TE links<br>
<br>
I still believe the tranffic matrix can be implicitely advertised as part o=
f the VL. Consider this:<br>
<br>
OC3------If5:OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL1 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF6---------OC4<br>
OC1------If1:OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL2 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF4---------OC2<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;OE1:If2-------------------I=
f3:OE2<br>
<br>
OE1 is a blocking node because only allows OC3 to be connected to VL1 and O=
C1 to VL2. But if you just advertise VL1 to OC3 (not VL2) and VL2 to OC1 (n=
ot VL1) aren't you implicitely hiding the blocking nature of OE1?<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Daniele<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt;-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com">=
IBryskin@advaoptical.com</a>]<br>
&gt;Sent: mercoled=EC 19 dicembre 2012 18.03<br>
&gt;To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Gert Grammel; CCAMP<br>
&gt;Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Daniele,<br>
&gt;Please, see in line.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@e=
ricsson.com">daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com</a>]<br>
&gt;Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 9:53 AM<br>
&gt;To: Igor Bryskin; Gert Grammel; CCAMP<br>
&gt;Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Hi Igor,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Just focusing on the virtual links for a while; i must admit<br>
&gt;that i'm a bit confused by your last mail. Let's pick the<br>
&gt;figure i sent.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;OC1 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; OC2<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;\ &nbsp; &nbsp;&#43;---&#43;IF2 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; IF3&#43=
;---&#43; &nbsp; &nbsp;/<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp; \IF1|OE1|-------------|OE2|IF4/<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &#43;---&#43; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &#43;---&#43;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;A) Virtual link is from OC1 to OC2<br>
&gt;&gt;B) Virtual link is from IF1 to IF4<br>
&gt;&gt;C) Virtual link is from IF2 to IF3<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; My understanding of your picture is this:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;OC1------If1:OE1<br>
&gt;OE2:IF4---------OC2<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2 My<br>
&gt;answer : is neither a), b) nor c)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;OC1------If1:OE1 &nbsp;=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF4=
---------OC2<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;VL is between OE1 and OE 2, potential server trail is between<br>
&gt;IF2 and IF3<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;According to the definition given:<br>
&gt;&quot;A virtual link is a potential path between two virtual or<br>
&gt;real network elements in a client layer&quot;<br>
&gt;I would say that a virtual link is from OC1 to OC2, which is A).<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; See above<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Then, from your latest definition:<br>
&gt;&quot; a potential path between two virtual or real server domain<br>
&gt;network elements&quot;<br>
&gt;I would say that a virtual link can be either B) or C).<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; See above<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Then you speak about access links, which implies that the link<br>
&gt;between OC1 and OE1 has its own dignity and hence that the<br>
&gt;virtual link is C) in picture above.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; Links OC1- OE1 and OC2-OE2 are access links<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Now i have 2 questions:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Q1: can you confirm that a virtual link is C)? Then we need to<br>
&gt;update the definition of a virtual link removing any<br>
&gt;misleading reference to client/server domain Network elements<br>
&gt;and speak about OCs and OEs.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Q2: if on the other side we considered the virtual link being<br>
&gt;B) (i.e. From IF1 to IF4 hence with an &quot;implicit&quot; node<br>
&gt;connectivity matrix) which would be the drawbacks of this solution?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; &nbsp;VL cannot start on a customer facing interface. OE is =
a<br>
&gt;(blocking)<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; switch between access and virtual TE links<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Thanks<br>
&gt;Daniele<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;&gt;From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.c=
om">IBryskin@advaoptical.com</a>]<br>
&gt;&gt;Sent: luned=EC 17 dicembre 2012 21.12<br>
&gt;&gt;To: Gert Grammel; Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP<br>
&gt;&gt;Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Gert,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Please, see in line. I disagree with pretty much everything you say=
.<br>
&gt;&gt;Igor<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;&gt;From: <a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.=
org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@iet=
f.org</a>]<br>
&gt;On Behalf<br>
&gt;&gt;Of Gert Grammel<br>
&gt;&gt;Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 8:27 AM<br>
&gt;&gt;To: Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP<br>
&gt;&gt;Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Daniele,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Thank you for summarizing the current state of discussion. To move<=
br>
&gt;&gt;forward and to encourage comments, let me point to some of the issu=
es<br>
&gt;&gt;that are debated:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;1) Virtual Link: in the terminology statement a virtual link seems =
to<br>
&gt;&gt;connect two client elements.<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; The definition says:<br>
&gt;&gt;&quot;1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between t=
wo<br>
&gt;&gt;virtual or real network elements in a client layer&quot;, what make=
s you<br>
&gt;&gt;think that anyone ever applied that this is a path between client<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;devices? The definition should say, though: &quot; a potential<br>
&gt;path between<br>
&gt;&gt;two virtual or real server domain network elements&quot;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; However later on the 3) virtual topology is composed of access lin=
ks<br>
&gt;&gt;and virtual links. Hence. Virtual links connect server nodes, not<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;client nodes.<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; see above<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; By doing so, segments (AL and VL) are created.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;2) The scalability consideration in the appendix for VL is based on=
<br>
&gt;&gt;terminology 1) rather than on virtual topology<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; I completely disagree with this, see below<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;3). This way it doesn't describe then the &nbsp;scalability of a vi=
rtual<br>
&gt;&gt;topology (which doesn't necessitate a full mesh) but rather that of=
 a<br>
&gt;&gt;virtual node (which implies a full connectivity matrix).<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;To sum up:<br>
&gt;&gt;1) we have to come up with a crisp definition of a VL in a virtual<=
br>
&gt;&gt;topology that is different from a terminology 1) VL.<br>
&gt;&gt;Here is a gap<br>
&gt;&gt;2) A Model based on a vitual node or 'terminology 1) links'<br>
&gt;&gt;create n**2 problems on client side and does not scale.<br>
&gt;&gt;3) 'VNT'-virtual-links 3) and access links are supposed to<br>
&gt;address the<br>
&gt;&gt;scaling problem. We need to clean up our terminology.<br>
&gt;Otherwise we end<br>
&gt;&gt;up associating limitations of terminology 1) links with<br>
&gt;VNT-links that<br>
&gt;&gt;address those limitations.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; It seems to me that you completely misunderstand current=
<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; definitions<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Now looking at the appendix it sadly reflects the terminology<br>
&gt;confusion<br>
&gt;&gt;and jumps to assessment and conclusions. That's unfortunate:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;The first line says:<br>
&gt;&gt;Some notes on the Virtual Node:<br>
&gt;&gt;1. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Virtual Link Model along, sadly,<br>
&gt;&gt;--&gt; is it now about virtual nodes or virtual links or VNT links?=
<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; Virtual Link Model includes access, inter-domain and<br>
&gt;&gt;virtual links<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; but does not include virtual nodes<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;2. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual L=
inks is by<br>
&gt;&gt;having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the midd=
le<br>
&gt;&gt;of the virtual topology<br>
&gt;&gt;--&gt; that's why access links are so useful. They end at server no=
des<br>
&gt;&gt;--&gt; which are connected via virtual links<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; A combination of access and virtual links alone *does no=
t<br>
&gt;&gt;address N**2 problem*.<br>
&gt;&gt;Consider 1000 client devices connected via 1000 access links to the=
<br>
&gt;&gt;network that need to be fully interconnected. You will need<br>
&gt;1000000 VLs<br>
&gt;&gt;to do so. You need to have one or more Virtual Nodes in the middle =
of<br>
&gt;&gt;the virtual topology to solve this issue. Overlay Network Topology =
is<br>
&gt;&gt;no different from real network topology, and real network<br>
&gt;topologies do<br>
&gt;&gt;include Ps, not just PEs<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;3. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;These intermediate nodes cannot be real serv=
er domain<br>
&gt;&gt;switches, because, generally speaking:<br>
&gt;&gt;--&gt; in case of VNT-VLs no intermediate nodes are necessarily req=
uired<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; See &nbsp;above, IMO you are dead wrong<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;4. &nbsp;--&gt; No need to comment, this way doesn't scale anyway.<=
br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; ONTs with virtual nodes scale no worse that real network=
<br>
&gt;&gt;topologies<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;5. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths t=
hat could<br>
&gt;&gt;potentially go through a real server domain switch, the latter's<br=
>
&gt;&gt;connectivity matrix must expose &quot;internal&quot; SRLGs, so that=
 the two<br>
&gt;&gt;services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail<br>
&gt;if a single<br>
&gt;&gt;internal element shared by the services fails<br>
&gt;&gt;--&gt; who is 'you' that computes? A client selects among VNT<br>
&gt;&gt;virtual links based on exposed SRLGs, VLs are computed by the serve=
r<br>
&gt;&gt;with full knowledge of constraints. So what does an 'internal' SRLG=
<br>
&gt;&gt;mean to a server path computation?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; You is the client path computer. If the two paths are<br=
>
&gt;&gt;going through<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; the same node, they may overlap inside the node, which<b=
r>
&gt;means they<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; can be brought down by a single network failure. That's =
why you<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; need to expose &nbsp;node's internal SRLGs or try to fin=
d node<br>
&gt;&gt;disjoint<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; paths (which may not be available)<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;6. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;If you walk through all cases that need to b=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking=
<br>
&gt;&gt;switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no differenc=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;between a virtual node and real blocking real node.<br>
&gt;&gt;--&gt; I suggest to model a complete network of say 5 nodes in a<br=
>
&gt;&gt;single VN and compare it with the model of a single real node.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; Please, do that<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;--&gt; The assessments made have used a terminology definition<br>
&gt;&gt;that doesn't really capture the case made for VNT-VLs.<br>
&gt;&gt;That's why I would have had appreciated to split definitions and wo=
rk<br>
&gt;&gt;items agreed among a group from individual assessments in separate<=
br>
&gt;&gt;emails.<br>
&gt;&gt;Nevertheless I consider the first part of your email (all except th=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;appendix) as a good starting point for further clarification.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Gert<br>
&gt;&gt;________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt;From: <a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.=
org</a> on behalf of Daniele Ceccarelli<br>
&gt;&gt;Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 12:17:08 PM<br>
&gt;&gt;To: CCAMP<br>
&gt;&gt;Subject: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Dear CCAMPers,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the Overlay model=
<br>
&gt;&gt;framework and related works took place. Some discussions led to som=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;sort of agreemet among a small group of people, some others<br>
&gt;to a set a<br>
&gt;&gt;viable options, some others to totally open issues. I tried to<br>
&gt;&gt;summarize the output of such discussions below so to progress the<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;discussions into a single thread on the WG ML.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a well shap=
ed<br>
&gt;&gt;and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to provide the basis for<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea (step 1) instead of=
<br>
&gt;&gt;starting it from scratch (step 0).<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a proposal of t=
he<br>
&gt;&gt;overlay scenario.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt;Daniele<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&#43; Disclaimer:<br>
&gt;&gt; 1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work can be=
<br>
&gt;&gt;extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&#43; Terminology:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; 1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between two<br=
>
&gt;&gt;virtual or real network elements in a client layer network &nbsp;th=
at is<br>
&gt;&gt;maintained/controlled in and by the server domain control<br>
&gt;plane (and as<br>
&gt;&gt;such cannot transport any traffic/data and protected from being<br>
&gt;&gt;de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the data plane (an=
d<br>
&gt;&gt;then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving previousl=
y<br>
&gt;&gt;advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.<br>
&gt;&gt; 2. &nbsp;Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or<br>
&gt;more server<br>
&gt;&gt;network &nbsp;domain nodes that are collectively represented to<br>
&gt;the clients<br>
&gt;&gt;as a single node that exists in the client layer network and<br>
&gt;is capable<br>
&gt;&gt;of terminating of access, inter-domain and virtual links.<br>
&gt;&gt; 3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one or mor=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;virtual or real server network domain nodes that exist in the clien=
t<br>
&gt;&gt;layer network and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual links.<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; 4. Overlay topology: &nbsp;is a superset of virtual topologies<br>
&gt;provided by<br>
&gt;&gt;each of server network domains, access and inter-domain links.<br>
&gt;&gt; 5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that link. I=
t<br>
&gt;&gt;can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.<br>
&gt;&gt; 6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208<br>
&gt;teminology<br>
&gt;&gt;but (i) receiving virtual topology from the core network and<br>
&gt;requesting<br>
&gt;&gt;the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting the computation and<br=
>
&gt;&gt;establishment of a path accordingly to gien constraints in the core=
<br>
&gt;&gt;network and receiving the parameters characterizing such<br>
&gt;path. (ii) =3D=3D<br>
&gt;&gt;UNI.<br>
&gt;&gt; 7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but able to=
<br>
&gt;&gt;deal with (i) and (ii) above.<br>
&gt;&gt; 8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for signali=
ng<br>
&gt;&gt;and routing messages exchange between Overlay and Core<br>
&gt;network. Routing<br>
&gt;&gt;information consists on virtual topology advertisement. When there =
is<br>
&gt;&gt;no routing adjacency across the interface it is equivalent to<br>
&gt;the GMPLS<br>
&gt;&gt;UNI defined in 4208.<br>
&gt;&gt;Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information related =
to<br>
&gt;&gt;path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected SRLG, path<br>
&gt;delay etc,<br>
&gt;&gt;either passed from OE to OC via signaling after the LSP establishme=
nt<br>
&gt;&gt;in the core network or from OC to OE to be used as path computation=
<br>
&gt;&gt;constraints, fall under the definition of signaling info and not<br=
>
&gt;&gt;routing info).<br>
&gt;&gt; 9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the links<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;between different core networks in the overlay model environment, i=
.e.<br>
&gt;&gt;Between border OEs. Same features of the ONI apply to this interfac=
e.<br>
&gt;&gt;Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name is needed?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&#43; Statements<br>
&gt;&gt; 1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build an overl=
ay<br>
&gt;&gt;topology for the client network domains &nbsp;2. The overlay topolo=
gy is<br>
&gt;&gt;comprised of:<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the<b=
r>
&gt;server network<br>
&gt;&gt;domains). They can be PSC or LSC.<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server n=
etwork<br>
&gt;&gt;domains)<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;c) virtual topology provided by the server network<br=
>
&gt;domains. Virtual<br>
&gt;&gt;Links &#43; Virtual Nodes (TBD) &#43; Connectivity Matrix (with a s=
et of<br>
&gt;&gt;parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments, delay etc for each entry=
)<br>
&gt;&gt;describing connectivity between access links and virtual links.<br>
&gt;&gt; 3. In the context of overlay model we manage &nbsp;hierarchy &nbsp=
;of overlay<br>
&gt;&gt;topologies with overlay/underlay relationships &nbsp;4. In the cont=
ext of<br>
&gt;&gt;overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships are<br>
&gt;&gt;peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network integration =
&nbsp;5.<br>
&gt;&gt;The overlay model assumes one instance for the client network and a=
<br>
&gt;&gt;separate instance for the server network and in the ONI case<br>
&gt;the server<br>
&gt;&gt;network also surreptitiously participates in the client network by<=
br>
&gt;&gt;injecting virtual topology information into it.<br>
&gt;&gt; 6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over<br>
&gt;the ONI (it<br>
&gt;&gt;falls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency is in place<br>
&gt;between OC<br>
&gt;&gt;and OE).<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&#43; Open issues/questions<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; 1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about PCE<br>
&gt;and PCEP<br>
&gt;&gt;into the overlay framework context?<br>
&gt;&gt; 2. BGP-LS needs to be considered<br>
&gt;&gt; 3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&#43; Appendix:<br>
&gt;&gt;Some notes on the Virtual Node:<br>
&gt;&gt;1. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not sc=
ale<br>
&gt;&gt;because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs have th=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs<br>
&gt;&gt;2. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual L=
inks is by<br>
&gt;&gt;having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the midd=
le<br>
&gt;&gt;of the virtual topology<br>
&gt;&gt;3. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;These intermediate nodes cannot be real serv=
er domain<br>
&gt;&gt;switches, because, generally speaking:<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;a)Real switches belong to different layer network;<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;b)Real switches are named from different naming space<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;c)real switches individually may not have sufficient resourc=
es to<br>
&gt;&gt;terminate virtual links (while a group of real switches collectivel=
y<br>
&gt;&gt;will have)<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual no=
de have<br>
&gt;&gt;better scalability qualities<br>
&gt;&gt;4. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Even if you map a virtual node on a single r=
eal node,<br>
&gt;&gt;you need to keep in mind that real server domain switches are,<br>
&gt;&gt;generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must expose their=
<br>
&gt;&gt;connectivity matrices<br>
&gt;&gt;5. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths t=
hat could<br>
&gt;&gt;potentially go through a real server domain switch, the latter's<br=
>
&gt;&gt;connectivity matrix must expose &quot;internal&quot; SRLGs, so that=
 the two<br>
&gt;&gt;services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail<br>
&gt;if a single<br>
&gt;&gt;internal element shared by the services fails<br>
&gt;&gt;6. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;If you walk through all cases that need to b=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking=
<br>
&gt;&gt;switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no differenc=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;between a virtual node and real blocking real node.<br>
&gt;&gt;7. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs co=
nnected to<br>
&gt;&gt;server network domain must be upgraded so that they could understan=
d<br>
&gt;&gt;the connectivity matrices advertised by the border nodes describing=
<br>
&gt;&gt;connectivity constraints between access links and virtual links the=
y<br>
&gt;&gt;terminate.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
&gt;&gt;DANIELE CECCARELLI<br>
&gt;&gt;System &amp; Technology - PDU Optical &amp; Metro<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Via E.Melen, 77<br>
&gt;&gt;Genova, Italy<br>
&gt;&gt;Phone &#43;390106002512<br>
&gt;&gt;Mobile &#43;393346725750<br>
&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com">daniele.ceccarel=
li@ericsson.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"http://www.ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">www.ericsson.=
com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive email =
on<br>
&gt;&gt;the basis of the term set out at <a href=3D"http://www.ericsson.com=
/email_disclaimer" target=3D"_blank">
www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;_______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt;CCAMP mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org">CCAMP@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp" target=3D"_=
blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
CCAMP mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org">CCAMP@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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You are correct in saying that the virtual topology presented to the client=
 is an arbitrary mesh of VNs interconnected via VLs. VN can be mapped onto =
exactly one, several, a fraction or multiple fractions of real server domai=
n NEs. VN (just like a real node) can be blocking or non-blocking. In the l=
atter case the connectivity matrix advertisement is not required. The clien=
t path computer will determine a path in a form such as OC1-VN1-VL3-VN4-VL2=
-VN2-OC3. How server domains translate such paths into real provisioning is=
 their internal matter. It is important, though, that VLs advertise accurat=
e information about fate sharing, delay characteristics, bandwidth, etc. so=
 that client could have enough information for the computation.

Igor


From: Snigdho Bardalai [mailto:SBardalai@infinera.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 4:51 PM
To: Igor Bryskin; Snigdho Bardalai
Cc: CCAMP
Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context

OC1-----VN1                              VN3-----OC2
            VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3
OC5-----VN1                              VN3-----OC6
            VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL3=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4
            VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL4=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN5
OC3-----VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4-----OC4
           VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL5=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN5
           VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL6=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3

Consider the picture above, by hair-pining I am referring to a path such as=
 OC1-VN1-VL3-VN4-VL2-VN2-OC3, of course assuming bandwidth is available.

From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:ccamp-b=
ounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Igor Bryskin
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 1:47 PM
To: Snigdho Bardalai
Cc: CCAMP
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context

Define the "hair-pinning", please

From: Snigdho Bardalai [mailto:sbardalai1@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 4:34 PM
To: Igor Bryskin
Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Gert Grammel; CCAMP
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context

Igor,

I think depending on what the capabilities of the OE are there may be many =
possibilities. Expanding on your VN examples.

Another example could be:

OC1-----VN1                              VN3-----OC2
            VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3
OC5-----VN1                              VN3-----OC6
OC3-----VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4-----OC4

Since virtual-links are potential links the topology would have to be a mes=
h between the VNs. The other question that is applicable here is whether ha=
ir-pinning is allowed in a VN?

OC1-----VN1                              VN3-----OC2
            VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3
OC5-----VN1                              VN3-----OC6
            VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL3=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4
            VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL4=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN5
OC3-----VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4-----OC4
           VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL5=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN5
           VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL6=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3

Regards
Snigdho

On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 8:01 AM, Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com<mai=
lto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com>> wrote:
Daniele,
It seems we have a disconnect here.

OC1-----OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DOE2-----OC2
OC3-----OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DOE2-----OC4

Generally speaking OEs are blocking switches, and the connectivity matrices=
 need to be advertised by OEs, so that the client path computer will know ,=
 for example, that OC1-OE1 access link can be switched to VL1 (but not to V=
L2). One way to alleviate the client path computation from dealing with con=
nectivity matrices is by presenting OEs as sets of independent fully symmet=
rical Virtual Nodes:

OC1-----VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3-----OC2
OC3-----VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4-----OC4

Igor

-----Original Message-----
From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com<mailto:dan=
iele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>]
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 4:41 AM
To: Igor Bryskin; Gert Grammel; CCAMP
Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context

Hi Igor,

Unfortunately your drawing is totally misaligned, is this a correct re-draw=
ing?

OC1------If1:OE1                          OE2:IF4---------OC2
             OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2

answer : is neither a), b) nor c)

OC1------If1:OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF4---------OC2
             OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2

With respect to Q2:

>Q2: if on the other side we considered the virtual link being
>B) (i.e. From IF1 to IF4 hence with an "implicit" node
>connectivity matrix) which would be the drawbacks of this solution?
>
>IB>>  VL cannot start on a customer facing interface. OE is a
>(blocking)
>IB>> switch between access and virtual TE links

I still believe the tranffic matrix can be implicitely advertised as part o=
f the VL. Consider this:

OC3------If5:OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL1 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF6---------OC4
OC1------If1:OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL2 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF4---------OC2
             OE1:If2-------------------If3:OE2

OE1 is a blocking node because only allows OC3 to be connected to VL1 and O=
C1 to VL2. But if you just advertise VL1 to OC3 (not VL2) and VL2 to OC1 (n=
ot VL1) aren't you implicitely hiding the blocking nature of OE1?

Cheers,
Daniele


>-----Original Message-----
>From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com<mailto:IBryskin@advaop=
tical.com>]
>Sent: mercoled=EC 19 dicembre 2012 18.03
>To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Gert Grammel; CCAMP
>Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>Daniele,
>Please, see in line.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com<mailto:da=
niele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>]
>Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 9:53 AM
>To: Igor Bryskin; Gert Grammel; CCAMP
>Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>Hi Igor,
>
>Just focusing on the virtual links for a while; i must admit
>that i'm a bit confused by your last mail. Let's pick the
>figure i sent.
>
>>OC1                               OC2
>>  \    +---+IF2       IF3+---+    /
>>   \IF1|OE1|-------------|OE2|IF4/
>>       +---+             +---+
>>
>>A) Virtual link is from OC1 to OC2
>>B) Virtual link is from IF1 to IF4
>>C) Virtual link is from IF2 to IF3
>
>IB>> My understanding of your picture is this:
>
>OC1------If1:OE1
>OE2:IF4---------OC2
>                       OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2 My
>answer : is neither a), b) nor c)
>
>OC1------If1:OE1  =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF4--------=
-OC2
>                       OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2
>
>VL is between OE1 and OE 2, potential server trail is between
>IF2 and IF3
>
>According to the definition given:
>"A virtual link is a potential path between two virtual or
>real network elements in a client layer"
>I would say that a virtual link is from OC1 to OC2, which is A).
>
>IB>> See above
>
>Then, from your latest definition:
>" a potential path between two virtual or real server domain
>network elements"
>I would say that a virtual link can be either B) or C).
>IB>> See above
>
>Then you speak about access links, which implies that the link
>between OC1 and OE1 has its own dignity and hence that the
>virtual link is C) in picture above.
>
>IB>> Links OC1- OE1 and OC2-OE2 are access links
>
>Now i have 2 questions:
>
>Q1: can you confirm that a virtual link is C)? Then we need to
>update the definition of a virtual link removing any
>misleading reference to client/server domain Network elements
>and speak about OCs and OEs.
>
>Q2: if on the other side we considered the virtual link being
>B) (i.e. From IF1 to IF4 hence with an "implicit" node
>connectivity matrix) which would be the drawbacks of this solution?
>
>IB>>  VL cannot start on a customer facing interface. OE is a
>(blocking)
>IB>> switch between access and virtual TE links
>
>
>Thanks
>Daniele
>
>
>
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com<mailto:IBryskin@advao=
ptical.com>]
>>Sent: luned=EC 17 dicembre 2012 21.12
>>To: Gert Grammel; Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP
>>Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>
>>Gert,
>>
>>Please, see in line. I disagree with pretty much everything you say.
>>Igor
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:ccamp=
-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org>]
>On Behalf
>>Of Gert Grammel
>>Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 8:27 AM
>>To: Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP
>>Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>
>>Daniele,
>>
>>Thank you for summarizing the current state of discussion. To move
>>forward and to encourage comments, let me point to some of the issues
>>that are debated:
>>
>>1) Virtual Link: in the terminology statement a virtual link seems to
>>connect two client elements.
>>IB>> The definition says:
>>"1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between two
>>virtual or real network elements in a client layer", what makes you
>>think that anyone ever applied that this is a path between client
>>devices? The definition should say, though: " a potential
>path between
>>two virtual or real server domain network elements"
>>
>> However later on the 3) virtual topology is composed of access links
>>and virtual links. Hence. Virtual links connect server nodes, not
>>client nodes.
>>IB>> see above
>>
>> By doing so, segments (AL and VL) are created.
>>
>>2) The scalability consideration in the appendix for VL is based on
>>terminology 1) rather than on virtual topology
>>
>>IB>> I completely disagree with this, see below
>>
>>3). This way it doesn't describe then the  scalability of a virtual
>>topology (which doesn't necessitate a full mesh) but rather that of a
>>virtual node (which implies a full connectivity matrix).
>>
>>To sum up:
>>1) we have to come up with a crisp definition of a VL in a virtual
>>topology that is different from a terminology 1) VL.
>>Here is a gap
>>2) A Model based on a vitual node or 'terminology 1) links'
>>create n**2 problems on client side and does not scale.
>>3) 'VNT'-virtual-links 3) and access links are supposed to
>address the
>>scaling problem. We need to clean up our terminology.
>Otherwise we end
>>up associating limitations of terminology 1) links with
>VNT-links that
>>address those limitations.
>>
>>IB>> It seems to me that you completely misunderstand current
>>IB>> definitions
>>
>>Now looking at the appendix it sadly reflects the terminology
>confusion
>>and jumps to assessment and conclusions. That's unfortunate:
>>
>>The first line says:
>>Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>>1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly,
>>--> is it now about virtual nodes or virtual links or VNT links?
>>IB>> Virtual Link Model includes access, inter-domain and
>>virtual links
>>IB>> but does not include virtual nodes
>>
>>2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is by
>>having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the middle
>>of the virtual topology
>>--> that's why access links are so useful. They end at server nodes
>>--> which are connected via virtual links
>>
>>IB>> A combination of access and virtual links alone *does not
>>address N**2 problem*.
>>Consider 1000 client devices connected via 1000 access links to the
>>network that need to be fully interconnected. You will need
>1000000 VLs
>>to do so. You need to have one or more Virtual Nodes in the middle of
>>the virtual topology to solve this issue. Overlay Network Topology is
>>no different from real network topology, and real network
>topologies do
>>include Ps, not just PEs
>>
>>3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain
>>switches, because, generally speaking:
>>--> in case of VNT-VLs no intermediate nodes are necessarily required
>>IB>> See  above, IMO you are dead wrong
>>
>>4.  --> No need to comment, this way doesn't scale anyway.
>>IB>> ONTs with virtual nodes scale no worse that real network
>>topologies
>>
>>5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could
>>potentially go through a real server domain switch, the latter's
>>connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so that the two
>>services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail
>if a single
>>internal element shared by the services fails
>>--> who is 'you' that computes? A client selects among VNT
>>virtual links based on exposed SRLGs, VLs are computed by the server
>>with full knowledge of constraints. So what does an 'internal' SRLG
>>mean to a server path computation?
>>
>>IB>> You is the client path computer. If the two paths are
>>going through
>>IB>> the same node, they may overlap inside the node, which
>means they
>>IB>> can be brought down by a single network failure. That's why you
>>IB>> need to expose  node's internal SRLGs or try to find node
>>disjoint
>>IB>> paths (which may not be available)
>>
>>6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be
>>addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking
>>switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no difference
>>between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
>>--> I suggest to model a complete network of say 5 nodes in a
>>single VN and compare it with the model of a single real node.
>>
>>IB>> Please, do that
>>
>>--> The assessments made have used a terminology definition
>>that doesn't really capture the case made for VNT-VLs.
>>That's why I would have had appreciated to split definitions and work
>>items agreed among a group from individual assessments in separate
>>emails.
>>Nevertheless I consider the first part of your email (all except the
>>appendix) as a good starting point for further clarification.
>>
>>Gert
>>________________________________________
>>From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of =
Daniele Ceccarelli
>>Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 12:17:08 PM
>>To: CCAMP
>>Subject: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>
>>Dear CCAMPers,
>>
>>In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the Overlay model
>>framework and related works took place. Some discussions led to some
>>sort of agreemet among a small group of people, some others
>to a set a
>>viable options, some others to totally open issues. I tried to
>>summarize the output of such discussions below so to progress the
>>discussions into a single thread on the WG ML.
>>
>>Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a well shaped
>>and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to provide the basis for
>>starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea (step 1) instead of
>>starting it from scratch (step 0).
>>
>>In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a proposal of the
>>overlay scenario.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Daniele
>>
>>+ Disclaimer:
>> 1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work can be
>>extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.
>>
>>+ Terminology:
>>
>> 1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between two
>>virtual or real network elements in a client layer network  that is
>>maintained/controlled in and by the server domain control
>plane (and as
>>such cannot transport any traffic/data and protected from being
>>de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the data plane (and
>>then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving previously
>>advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.
>> 2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or
>more server
>>network  domain nodes that are collectively represented to
>the clients
>>as a single node that exists in the client layer network and
>is capable
>>of terminating of access, inter-domain and virtual links.
>> 3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one or more
>>virtual or real server network domain nodes that exist in the client
>>layer network and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual links.
>> 4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies
>provided by
>>each of server network domains, access and inter-domain links.
>> 5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that link. It
>>can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
>> 6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208
>teminology
>>but (i) receiving virtual topology from the core network and
>requesting
>>the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting the computation and
>>establishment of a path accordingly to gien constraints in the core
>>network and receiving the parameters characterizing such
>path. (ii) =3D=3D
>>UNI.
>> 7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but able to
>>deal with (i) and (ii) above.
>> 8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for signaling
>>and routing messages exchange between Overlay and Core
>network. Routing
>>information consists on virtual topology advertisement. When there is
>>no routing adjacency across the interface it is equivalent to
>the GMPLS
>>UNI defined in 4208.
>>Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information related to
>>path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected SRLG, path
>delay etc,
>>either passed from OE to OC via signaling after the LSP establishment
>>in the core network or from OC to OE to be used as path computation
>>constraints, fall under the definition of signaling info and not
>>routing info).
>> 9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the links
>>between different core networks in the overlay model environment, i.e.
>>Between border OEs. Same features of the ONI apply to this interface.
>>Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name is needed?
>>
>>+ Statements
>> 1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build an overlay
>>topology for the client network domains  2. The overlay topology is
>>comprised of:
>>    a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the
>server network
>>domains). They can be PSC or LSC.
>>    b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server network
>>domains)
>>    c) virtual topology provided by the server network
>domains. Virtual
>>Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) + Connectivity Matrix (with a set of
>>parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments, delay etc for each entry)
>>describing connectivity between access links and virtual links.
>> 3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy  of overlay
>>topologies with overlay/underlay relationships  4. In the context of
>>overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships are
>>peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network integration  5.
>>The overlay model assumes one instance for the client network and a
>>separate instance for the server network and in the ONI case
>the server
>>network also surreptitiously participates in the client network by
>>injecting virtual topology information into it.
>> 6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over
>the ONI (it
>>falls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency is in place
>between OC
>>and OE).
>>
>>+ Open issues/questions
>>
>> 1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about PCE
>and PCEP
>>into the overlay framework context?
>> 2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
>> 3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?
>>
>>+ Appendix:
>>Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>>1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale
>>because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs have the
>>same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs
>>2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is by
>>having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the middle
>>of the virtual topology
>>3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain
>>switches, because, generally speaking:
>>  a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
>>  b)Real switches are named from different naming space
>>  c)real switches individually may not have sufficient resources to
>>terminate virtual links (while a group of real switches collectively
>>will have)
>>  d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual node have
>>better scalability qualities
>>4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real node,
>>you need to keep in mind that real server domain switches are,
>>generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must expose their
>>connectivity matrices
>>5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could
>>potentially go through a real server domain switch, the latter's
>>connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so that the two
>>services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail
>if a single
>>internal element shared by the services fails
>>6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be
>>addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking
>>switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no difference
>>between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
>>7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected to
>>server network domain must be upgraded so that they could understand
>>the connectivity matrices advertised by the border nodes describing
>>connectivity constraints between access links and virtual links they
>>terminate.
>>
>>
>>
>>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>DANIELE CECCARELLI
>>System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro
>>
>>Via E.Melen, 77
>>Genova, Italy
>>Phone +390106002512
>>Mobile +393346725750
>>daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com<mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
>>www.ericsson.com<http://www.ericsson.com>
>>
>>This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive email on
>>the basis of the term set out at www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer<http:/=
/www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>CCAMP mailing list
>>CCAMP@ietf.org<mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org>
>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>
>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">You are correct in saying=
 that the virtual topology presented to the client is an arbitrary mesh of =
VNs interconnected via VLs. VN can be mapped onto exactly
 one, several, a fraction or multiple fractions of real server domain NEs. =
VN (just like a real node) can be blocking or non-blocking. In the latter c=
ase the connectivity matrix advertisement is not required. The client path =
computer will determine a path in
 a form such as </span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">OC1-VN1-VL3-VN4-VL2-VN2-O=
C3. How server domains translate such paths into real provisioning is their=
 internal matter. It is important, though, that VLs advertise
 accurate information about fate sharing, delay characteristics, bandwidth,=
 etc. so that client could have enough information for the computation.<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Igor</span><span style=3D=
"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;co=
lor:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Snigdho =
Bardalai [mailto:SBardalai@infinera.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 20, 2012 4:51 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Igor Bryskin; Snigdho Bardalai<br>
<b>Cc:</b> CCAMP<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">OC1-----VN1 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;VN3-----OC2=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; VN1=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">OC5-----VN1 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;VN3-----OC6=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; VN1=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL3=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; VN1=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL4=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN5<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">OC3-----VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN=
4-----OC4<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;VN2=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL5=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN5<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;VN2=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL6=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Consider the picture abov=
e, by hair-pining I am referring to a path such as OC1-VN1-VL3-VN4-VL2-VN2-=
OC3, of course assuming bandwidth is available.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Igor Bryskin<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 20, 2012 1:47 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Snigdho Bardalai<br>
<b>Cc:</b> CCAMP<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context</span><o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Define the &#8220;hair-pi=
nning&#8221;, please</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Snigdho =
Bardalai [<a href=3D"mailto:sbardalai1@gmail.com">mailto:sbardalai1@gmail.c=
om</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 20, 2012 4:34 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Igor Bryskin<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Daniele Ceccarelli; Gert Grammel; CCAMP<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context</span><o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Igor,<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think depending on what the capabilities of the OE=
 are there may be many possibilities. Expanding on your VN examples.<o:p></=
o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Another example could be:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">OC1-----VN1 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;VN3-----OC2=
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; VN1=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">OC5-----VN1 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;VN3-----OC6=
<br>
OC3-----VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4-----OC4<o:p></o:p></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Since virtual-links are potential links the topology=
 would have to be a mesh between the VNs. The other question that is applic=
able here is whether hair-pinning is allowed in a VN?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">OC1-----VN1 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;VN3-----OC2=
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; VN1=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">OC5-----VN1 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;VN3-----OC6=
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; VN1=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL3=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; VN1=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL4=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN5<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">OC3-----VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN=
4-----OC4<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;VN2=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL5=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN5<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;VN2=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL6=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Snigdho<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 8:01 AM, Igor Bryskin &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com" target=3D"_blank">IBryskin@advaop=
tical.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Daniele,<br>
It seems we have a disconnect here.<br>
<br>
OC1-----OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DOE2-----OC2<br>
OC3-----OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DOE2-----OC4<br>
<br>
Generally speaking OEs are blocking switches, and the connectivity matrices=
 need to be advertised by OEs, so that the client path computer will know ,=
 for example, that OC1-OE1 access link can be switched to VL1 (but not to V=
L2). One way to alleviate the client
 path computation from dealing with connectivity matrices is by presenting =
OEs as sets of independent fully symmetrical Virtual Nodes:<br>
<br>
OC1-----VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3-----OC2<br>
OC3-----VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4-----OC4<br>
<span style=3D"color:#888888"><br>
<span class=3D"hoenzb">Igor</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@erics=
son.com">daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com</a>]<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 4:41 AM<br>
To: Igor Bryskin; Gert Grammel; CCAMP<br>
Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
<br>
Hi Igor,<br>
<br>
Unfortunately your drawing is totally misaligned, is this a correct re-draw=
ing?<br>
<br>
OC1------If1:OE1 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;OE2:IF4---------OC2<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;OE1:If2----------------- If=
3:OE2<br>
<br>
answer : is neither a), b) nor c)<br>
<br>
OC1------If1:OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF4---------OC2<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;OE1:If2----------------- If=
3:OE2<br>
<br>
With respect to Q2:<br>
<br>
&gt;Q2: if on the other side we considered the virtual link being<br>
&gt;B) (i.e. From IF1 to IF4 hence with an &quot;implicit&quot; node<br>
&gt;connectivity matrix) which would be the drawbacks of this solution?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; &nbsp;VL cannot start on a customer facing interface. OE is =
a<br>
&gt;(blocking)<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; switch between access and virtual TE links<br>
<br>
I still believe the tranffic matrix can be implicitely advertised as part o=
f the VL. Consider this:<br>
<br>
OC3------If5:OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL1 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF6---------OC4<br>
OC1------If1:OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL2 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF4---------OC2<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;OE1:If2-------------------I=
f3:OE2<br>
<br>
OE1 is a blocking node because only allows OC3 to be connected to VL1 and O=
C1 to VL2. But if you just advertise VL1 to OC3 (not VL2) and VL2 to OC1 (n=
ot VL1) aren't you implicitely hiding the blocking nature of OE1?<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Daniele<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt;-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com">=
IBryskin@advaoptical.com</a>]<br>
&gt;Sent: mercoled=EC 19 dicembre 2012 18.03<br>
&gt;To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Gert Grammel; CCAMP<br>
&gt;Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Daniele,<br>
&gt;Please, see in line.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@e=
ricsson.com">daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com</a>]<br>
&gt;Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 9:53 AM<br>
&gt;To: Igor Bryskin; Gert Grammel; CCAMP<br>
&gt;Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Hi Igor,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Just focusing on the virtual links for a while; i must admit<br>
&gt;that i'm a bit confused by your last mail. Let's pick the<br>
&gt;figure i sent.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;OC1 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; OC2<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;\ &nbsp; &nbsp;&#43;---&#43;IF2 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; IF3&#43=
;---&#43; &nbsp; &nbsp;/<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp; \IF1|OE1|-------------|OE2|IF4/<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &#43;---&#43; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &#43;---&#43;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;A) Virtual link is from OC1 to OC2<br>
&gt;&gt;B) Virtual link is from IF1 to IF4<br>
&gt;&gt;C) Virtual link is from IF2 to IF3<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; My understanding of your picture is this:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;OC1------If1:OE1<br>
&gt;OE2:IF4---------OC2<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2 My<br>
&gt;answer : is neither a), b) nor c)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;OC1------If1:OE1 &nbsp;=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF4=
---------OC2<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;VL is between OE1 and OE 2, potential server trail is between<br>
&gt;IF2 and IF3<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;According to the definition given:<br>
&gt;&quot;A virtual link is a potential path between two virtual or<br>
&gt;real network elements in a client layer&quot;<br>
&gt;I would say that a virtual link is from OC1 to OC2, which is A).<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; See above<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Then, from your latest definition:<br>
&gt;&quot; a potential path between two virtual or real server domain<br>
&gt;network elements&quot;<br>
&gt;I would say that a virtual link can be either B) or C).<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; See above<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Then you speak about access links, which implies that the link<br>
&gt;between OC1 and OE1 has its own dignity and hence that the<br>
&gt;virtual link is C) in picture above.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; Links OC1- OE1 and OC2-OE2 are access links<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Now i have 2 questions:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Q1: can you confirm that a virtual link is C)? Then we need to<br>
&gt;update the definition of a virtual link removing any<br>
&gt;misleading reference to client/server domain Network elements<br>
&gt;and speak about OCs and OEs.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Q2: if on the other side we considered the virtual link being<br>
&gt;B) (i.e. From IF1 to IF4 hence with an &quot;implicit&quot; node<br>
&gt;connectivity matrix) which would be the drawbacks of this solution?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; &nbsp;VL cannot start on a customer facing interface. OE is =
a<br>
&gt;(blocking)<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; switch between access and virtual TE links<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Thanks<br>
&gt;Daniele<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;&gt;From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.c=
om">IBryskin@advaoptical.com</a>]<br>
&gt;&gt;Sent: luned=EC 17 dicembre 2012 21.12<br>
&gt;&gt;To: Gert Grammel; Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP<br>
&gt;&gt;Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Gert,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Please, see in line. I disagree with pretty much everything you say=
.<br>
&gt;&gt;Igor<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;&gt;From: <a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.=
org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@iet=
f.org</a>]<br>
&gt;On Behalf<br>
&gt;&gt;Of Gert Grammel<br>
&gt;&gt;Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 8:27 AM<br>
&gt;&gt;To: Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP<br>
&gt;&gt;Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Daniele,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Thank you for summarizing the current state of discussion. To move<=
br>
&gt;&gt;forward and to encourage comments, let me point to some of the issu=
es<br>
&gt;&gt;that are debated:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;1) Virtual Link: in the terminology statement a virtual link seems =
to<br>
&gt;&gt;connect two client elements.<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; The definition says:<br>
&gt;&gt;&quot;1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between t=
wo<br>
&gt;&gt;virtual or real network elements in a client layer&quot;, what make=
s you<br>
&gt;&gt;think that anyone ever applied that this is a path between client<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;devices? The definition should say, though: &quot; a potential<br>
&gt;path between<br>
&gt;&gt;two virtual or real server domain network elements&quot;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; However later on the 3) virtual topology is composed of access lin=
ks<br>
&gt;&gt;and virtual links. Hence. Virtual links connect server nodes, not<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;client nodes.<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; see above<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; By doing so, segments (AL and VL) are created.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;2) The scalability consideration in the appendix for VL is based on=
<br>
&gt;&gt;terminology 1) rather than on virtual topology<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; I completely disagree with this, see below<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;3). This way it doesn't describe then the &nbsp;scalability of a vi=
rtual<br>
&gt;&gt;topology (which doesn't necessitate a full mesh) but rather that of=
 a<br>
&gt;&gt;virtual node (which implies a full connectivity matrix).<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;To sum up:<br>
&gt;&gt;1) we have to come up with a crisp definition of a VL in a virtual<=
br>
&gt;&gt;topology that is different from a terminology 1) VL.<br>
&gt;&gt;Here is a gap<br>
&gt;&gt;2) A Model based on a vitual node or 'terminology 1) links'<br>
&gt;&gt;create n**2 problems on client side and does not scale.<br>
&gt;&gt;3) 'VNT'-virtual-links 3) and access links are supposed to<br>
&gt;address the<br>
&gt;&gt;scaling problem. We need to clean up our terminology.<br>
&gt;Otherwise we end<br>
&gt;&gt;up associating limitations of terminology 1) links with<br>
&gt;VNT-links that<br>
&gt;&gt;address those limitations.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; It seems to me that you completely misunderstand current=
<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; definitions<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Now looking at the appendix it sadly reflects the terminology<br>
&gt;confusion<br>
&gt;&gt;and jumps to assessment and conclusions. That's unfortunate:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;The first line says:<br>
&gt;&gt;Some notes on the Virtual Node:<br>
&gt;&gt;1. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Virtual Link Model along, sadly,<br>
&gt;&gt;--&gt; is it now about virtual nodes or virtual links or VNT links?=
<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; Virtual Link Model includes access, inter-domain and<br>
&gt;&gt;virtual links<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; but does not include virtual nodes<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;2. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual L=
inks is by<br>
&gt;&gt;having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the midd=
le<br>
&gt;&gt;of the virtual topology<br>
&gt;&gt;--&gt; that's why access links are so useful. They end at server no=
des<br>
&gt;&gt;--&gt; which are connected via virtual links<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; A combination of access and virtual links alone *does no=
t<br>
&gt;&gt;address N**2 problem*.<br>
&gt;&gt;Consider 1000 client devices connected via 1000 access links to the=
<br>
&gt;&gt;network that need to be fully interconnected. You will need<br>
&gt;1000000 VLs<br>
&gt;&gt;to do so. You need to have one or more Virtual Nodes in the middle =
of<br>
&gt;&gt;the virtual topology to solve this issue. Overlay Network Topology =
is<br>
&gt;&gt;no different from real network topology, and real network<br>
&gt;topologies do<br>
&gt;&gt;include Ps, not just PEs<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;3. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;These intermediate nodes cannot be real serv=
er domain<br>
&gt;&gt;switches, because, generally speaking:<br>
&gt;&gt;--&gt; in case of VNT-VLs no intermediate nodes are necessarily req=
uired<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; See &nbsp;above, IMO you are dead wrong<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;4. &nbsp;--&gt; No need to comment, this way doesn't scale anyway.<=
br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; ONTs with virtual nodes scale no worse that real network=
<br>
&gt;&gt;topologies<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;5. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths t=
hat could<br>
&gt;&gt;potentially go through a real server domain switch, the latter's<br=
>
&gt;&gt;connectivity matrix must expose &quot;internal&quot; SRLGs, so that=
 the two<br>
&gt;&gt;services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail<br>
&gt;if a single<br>
&gt;&gt;internal element shared by the services fails<br>
&gt;&gt;--&gt; who is 'you' that computes? A client selects among VNT<br>
&gt;&gt;virtual links based on exposed SRLGs, VLs are computed by the serve=
r<br>
&gt;&gt;with full knowledge of constraints. So what does an 'internal' SRLG=
<br>
&gt;&gt;mean to a server path computation?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; You is the client path computer. If the two paths are<br=
>
&gt;&gt;going through<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; the same node, they may overlap inside the node, which<b=
r>
&gt;means they<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; can be brought down by a single network failure. That's =
why you<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; need to expose &nbsp;node's internal SRLGs or try to fin=
d node<br>
&gt;&gt;disjoint<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; paths (which may not be available)<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;6. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;If you walk through all cases that need to b=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking=
<br>
&gt;&gt;switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no differenc=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;between a virtual node and real blocking real node.<br>
&gt;&gt;--&gt; I suggest to model a complete network of say 5 nodes in a<br=
>
&gt;&gt;single VN and compare it with the model of a single real node.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; Please, do that<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;--&gt; The assessments made have used a terminology definition<br>
&gt;&gt;that doesn't really capture the case made for VNT-VLs.<br>
&gt;&gt;That's why I would have had appreciated to split definitions and wo=
rk<br>
&gt;&gt;items agreed among a group from individual assessments in separate<=
br>
&gt;&gt;emails.<br>
&gt;&gt;Nevertheless I consider the first part of your email (all except th=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;appendix) as a good starting point for further clarification.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Gert<br>
&gt;&gt;________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt;From: <a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.=
org</a> on behalf of Daniele Ceccarelli<br>
&gt;&gt;Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 12:17:08 PM<br>
&gt;&gt;To: CCAMP<br>
&gt;&gt;Subject: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Dear CCAMPers,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the Overlay model=
<br>
&gt;&gt;framework and related works took place. Some discussions led to som=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;sort of agreemet among a small group of people, some others<br>
&gt;to a set a<br>
&gt;&gt;viable options, some others to totally open issues. I tried to<br>
&gt;&gt;summarize the output of such discussions below so to progress the<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;discussions into a single thread on the WG ML.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a well shap=
ed<br>
&gt;&gt;and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to provide the basis for<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea (step 1) instead of=
<br>
&gt;&gt;starting it from scratch (step 0).<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a proposal of t=
he<br>
&gt;&gt;overlay scenario.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt;Daniele<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&#43; Disclaimer:<br>
&gt;&gt; 1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work can be=
<br>
&gt;&gt;extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&#43; Terminology:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; 1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between two<br=
>
&gt;&gt;virtual or real network elements in a client layer network &nbsp;th=
at is<br>
&gt;&gt;maintained/controlled in and by the server domain control<br>
&gt;plane (and as<br>
&gt;&gt;such cannot transport any traffic/data and protected from being<br>
&gt;&gt;de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the data plane (an=
d<br>
&gt;&gt;then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving previousl=
y<br>
&gt;&gt;advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.<br>
&gt;&gt; 2. &nbsp;Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or<br>
&gt;more server<br>
&gt;&gt;network &nbsp;domain nodes that are collectively represented to<br>
&gt;the clients<br>
&gt;&gt;as a single node that exists in the client layer network and<br>
&gt;is capable<br>
&gt;&gt;of terminating of access, inter-domain and virtual links.<br>
&gt;&gt; 3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one or mor=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;virtual or real server network domain nodes that exist in the clien=
t<br>
&gt;&gt;layer network and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual links.<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; 4. Overlay topology: &nbsp;is a superset of virtual topologies<br>
&gt;provided by<br>
&gt;&gt;each of server network domains, access and inter-domain links.<br>
&gt;&gt; 5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that link. I=
t<br>
&gt;&gt;can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.<br>
&gt;&gt; 6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208<br>
&gt;teminology<br>
&gt;&gt;but (i) receiving virtual topology from the core network and<br>
&gt;requesting<br>
&gt;&gt;the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting the computation and<br=
>
&gt;&gt;establishment of a path accordingly to gien constraints in the core=
<br>
&gt;&gt;network and receiving the parameters characterizing such<br>
&gt;path. (ii) =3D=3D<br>
&gt;&gt;UNI.<br>
&gt;&gt; 7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but able to=
<br>
&gt;&gt;deal with (i) and (ii) above.<br>
&gt;&gt; 8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for signali=
ng<br>
&gt;&gt;and routing messages exchange between Overlay and Core<br>
&gt;network. Routing<br>
&gt;&gt;information consists on virtual topology advertisement. When there =
is<br>
&gt;&gt;no routing adjacency across the interface it is equivalent to<br>
&gt;the GMPLS<br>
&gt;&gt;UNI defined in 4208.<br>
&gt;&gt;Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information related =
to<br>
&gt;&gt;path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected SRLG, path<br>
&gt;delay etc,<br>
&gt;&gt;either passed from OE to OC via signaling after the LSP establishme=
nt<br>
&gt;&gt;in the core network or from OC to OE to be used as path computation=
<br>
&gt;&gt;constraints, fall under the definition of signaling info and not<br=
>
&gt;&gt;routing info).<br>
&gt;&gt; 9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the links<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;between different core networks in the overlay model environment, i=
.e.<br>
&gt;&gt;Between border OEs. Same features of the ONI apply to this interfac=
e.<br>
&gt;&gt;Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name is needed?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&#43; Statements<br>
&gt;&gt; 1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build an overl=
ay<br>
&gt;&gt;topology for the client network domains &nbsp;2. The overlay topolo=
gy is<br>
&gt;&gt;comprised of:<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the<b=
r>
&gt;server network<br>
&gt;&gt;domains). They can be PSC or LSC.<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server n=
etwork<br>
&gt;&gt;domains)<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;c) virtual topology provided by the server network<br=
>
&gt;domains. Virtual<br>
&gt;&gt;Links &#43; Virtual Nodes (TBD) &#43; Connectivity Matrix (with a s=
et of<br>
&gt;&gt;parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments, delay etc for each entry=
)<br>
&gt;&gt;describing connectivity between access links and virtual links.<br>
&gt;&gt; 3. In the context of overlay model we manage &nbsp;hierarchy &nbsp=
;of overlay<br>
&gt;&gt;topologies with overlay/underlay relationships &nbsp;4. In the cont=
ext of<br>
&gt;&gt;overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships are<br>
&gt;&gt;peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network integration =
&nbsp;5.<br>
&gt;&gt;The overlay model assumes one instance for the client network and a=
<br>
&gt;&gt;separate instance for the server network and in the ONI case<br>
&gt;the server<br>
&gt;&gt;network also surreptitiously participates in the client network by<=
br>
&gt;&gt;injecting virtual topology information into it.<br>
&gt;&gt; 6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over<br>
&gt;the ONI (it<br>
&gt;&gt;falls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency is in place<br>
&gt;between OC<br>
&gt;&gt;and OE).<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&#43; Open issues/questions<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; 1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about PCE<br>
&gt;and PCEP<br>
&gt;&gt;into the overlay framework context?<br>
&gt;&gt; 2. BGP-LS needs to be considered<br>
&gt;&gt; 3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&#43; Appendix:<br>
&gt;&gt;Some notes on the Virtual Node:<br>
&gt;&gt;1. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not sc=
ale<br>
&gt;&gt;because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs have th=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs<br>
&gt;&gt;2. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual L=
inks is by<br>
&gt;&gt;having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the midd=
le<br>
&gt;&gt;of the virtual topology<br>
&gt;&gt;3. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;These intermediate nodes cannot be real serv=
er domain<br>
&gt;&gt;switches, because, generally speaking:<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;a)Real switches belong to different layer network;<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;b)Real switches are named from different naming space<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;c)real switches individually may not have sufficient resourc=
es to<br>
&gt;&gt;terminate virtual links (while a group of real switches collectivel=
y<br>
&gt;&gt;will have)<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual no=
de have<br>
&gt;&gt;better scalability qualities<br>
&gt;&gt;4. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Even if you map a virtual node on a single r=
eal node,<br>
&gt;&gt;you need to keep in mind that real server domain switches are,<br>
&gt;&gt;generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must expose their=
<br>
&gt;&gt;connectivity matrices<br>
&gt;&gt;5. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths t=
hat could<br>
&gt;&gt;potentially go through a real server domain switch, the latter's<br=
>
&gt;&gt;connectivity matrix must expose &quot;internal&quot; SRLGs, so that=
 the two<br>
&gt;&gt;services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail<br>
&gt;if a single<br>
&gt;&gt;internal element shared by the services fails<br>
&gt;&gt;6. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;If you walk through all cases that need to b=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking=
<br>
&gt;&gt;switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no differenc=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;between a virtual node and real blocking real node.<br>
&gt;&gt;7. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs co=
nnected to<br>
&gt;&gt;server network domain must be upgraded so that they could understan=
d<br>
&gt;&gt;the connectivity matrices advertised by the border nodes describing=
<br>
&gt;&gt;connectivity constraints between access links and virtual links the=
y<br>
&gt;&gt;terminate.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
&gt;&gt;DANIELE CECCARELLI<br>
&gt;&gt;System &amp; Technology - PDU Optical &amp; Metro<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Via E.Melen, 77<br>
&gt;&gt;Genova, Italy<br>
&gt;&gt;Phone &#43;390106002512<br>
&gt;&gt;Mobile &#43;393346725750<br>
&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com">daniele.ceccarel=
li@ericsson.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"http://www.ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">www.ericsson.=
com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive email =
on<br>
&gt;&gt;the basis of the term set out at <a href=3D"http://www.ericsson.com=
/email_disclaimer" target=3D"_blank">
www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;_______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt;CCAMP mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org">CCAMP@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp" target=3D"_=
blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
CCAMP mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org">CCAMP@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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From: Snigdho Bardalai <SBardalai@infinera.com>
To: Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Agree, the VN can advertise a connectivity matrix or the VN can be formed s=
uch that it consists of the set of VL or access-links that can be connected=
 in a non-blocking manner.

Snigdho

From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 2:03 PM
To: Snigdho Bardalai; Snigdho Bardalai
Cc: CCAMP
Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context

You are correct in saying that the virtual topology presented to the client=
 is an arbitrary mesh of VNs interconnected via VLs. VN can be mapped onto =
exactly one, several, a fraction or multiple fractions of real server domai=
n NEs. VN (just like a real node) can be blocking or non-blocking. In the l=
atter case the connectivity matrix advertisement is not required. The clien=
t path computer will determine a path in a form such as OC1-VN1-VL3-VN4-VL2=
-VN2-OC3. How server domains translate such paths into real provisioning is=
 their internal matter. It is important, though, that VLs advertise accurat=
e information about fate sharing, delay characteristics, bandwidth, etc. so=
 that client could have enough information for the computation.

Igor


From: Snigdho Bardalai [mailto:SBardalai@infinera.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 4:51 PM
To: Igor Bryskin; Snigdho Bardalai
Cc: CCAMP
Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context

OC1-----VN1                              VN3-----OC2
            VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3
OC5-----VN1                              VN3-----OC6
            VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL3=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4
            VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL4=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN5
OC3-----VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4-----OC4
           VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL5=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN5
           VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL6=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3

Consider the picture above, by hair-pining I am referring to a path such as=
 OC1-VN1-VL3-VN4-VL2-VN2-OC3, of course assuming bandwidth is available.

From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:ccamp-b=
ounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Igor Bryskin
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 1:47 PM
To: Snigdho Bardalai
Cc: CCAMP
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context

Define the "hair-pinning", please

From: Snigdho Bardalai [mailto:sbardalai1@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 4:34 PM
To: Igor Bryskin
Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Gert Grammel; CCAMP
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context

Igor,

I think depending on what the capabilities of the OE are there may be many =
possibilities. Expanding on your VN examples.

Another example could be:

OC1-----VN1                              VN3-----OC2
            VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3
OC5-----VN1                              VN3-----OC6
OC3-----VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4-----OC4

Since virtual-links are potential links the topology would have to be a mes=
h between the VNs. The other question that is applicable here is whether ha=
ir-pinning is allowed in a VN?

OC1-----VN1                              VN3-----OC2
            VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3
OC5-----VN1                              VN3-----OC6
            VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL3=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4
            VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL4=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN5
OC3-----VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4-----OC4
           VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL5=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN5
           VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL6=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3

Regards
Snigdho

On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 8:01 AM, Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com<mai=
lto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com>> wrote:
Daniele,
It seems we have a disconnect here.

OC1-----OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DOE2-----OC2
OC3-----OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DOE2-----OC4

Generally speaking OEs are blocking switches, and the connectivity matrices=
 need to be advertised by OEs, so that the client path computer will know ,=
 for example, that OC1-OE1 access link can be switched to VL1 (but not to V=
L2). One way to alleviate the client path computation from dealing with con=
nectivity matrices is by presenting OEs as sets of independent fully symmet=
rical Virtual Nodes:

OC1-----VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3-----OC2
OC3-----VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4-----OC4

Igor

-----Original Message-----
From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com<mailto:dan=
iele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>]
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 4:41 AM
To: Igor Bryskin; Gert Grammel; CCAMP
Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context

Hi Igor,

Unfortunately your drawing is totally misaligned, is this a correct re-draw=
ing?

OC1------If1:OE1                          OE2:IF4---------OC2
             OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2

answer : is neither a), b) nor c)

OC1------If1:OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF4---------OC2
             OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2

With respect to Q2:

>Q2: if on the other side we considered the virtual link being
>B) (i.e. From IF1 to IF4 hence with an "implicit" node
>connectivity matrix) which would be the drawbacks of this solution?
>
>IB>>  VL cannot start on a customer facing interface. OE is a
>(blocking)
>IB>> switch between access and virtual TE links

I still believe the tranffic matrix can be implicitely advertised as part o=
f the VL. Consider this:

OC3------If5:OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL1 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF6---------OC4
OC1------If1:OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL2 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF4---------OC2
             OE1:If2-------------------If3:OE2

OE1 is a blocking node because only allows OC3 to be connected to VL1 and O=
C1 to VL2. But if you just advertise VL1 to OC3 (not VL2) and VL2 to OC1 (n=
ot VL1) aren't you implicitely hiding the blocking nature of OE1?

Cheers,
Daniele


>-----Original Message-----
>From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com<mailto:IBryskin@advaop=
tical.com>]
>Sent: mercoled=EC 19 dicembre 2012 18.03
>To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Gert Grammel; CCAMP
>Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>Daniele,
>Please, see in line.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com<mailto:da=
niele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>]
>Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 9:53 AM
>To: Igor Bryskin; Gert Grammel; CCAMP
>Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>Hi Igor,
>
>Just focusing on the virtual links for a while; i must admit
>that i'm a bit confused by your last mail. Let's pick the
>figure i sent.
>
>>OC1                               OC2
>>  \    +---+IF2       IF3+---+    /
>>   \IF1|OE1|-------------|OE2|IF4/
>>       +---+             +---+
>>
>>A) Virtual link is from OC1 to OC2
>>B) Virtual link is from IF1 to IF4
>>C) Virtual link is from IF2 to IF3
>
>IB>> My understanding of your picture is this:
>
>OC1------If1:OE1
>OE2:IF4---------OC2
>                       OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2 My
>answer : is neither a), b) nor c)
>
>OC1------If1:OE1  =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF4--------=
-OC2
>                       OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2
>
>VL is between OE1 and OE 2, potential server trail is between
>IF2 and IF3
>
>According to the definition given:
>"A virtual link is a potential path between two virtual or
>real network elements in a client layer"
>I would say that a virtual link is from OC1 to OC2, which is A).
>
>IB>> See above
>
>Then, from your latest definition:
>" a potential path between two virtual or real server domain
>network elements"
>I would say that a virtual link can be either B) or C).
>IB>> See above
>
>Then you speak about access links, which implies that the link
>between OC1 and OE1 has its own dignity and hence that the
>virtual link is C) in picture above.
>
>IB>> Links OC1- OE1 and OC2-OE2 are access links
>
>Now i have 2 questions:
>
>Q1: can you confirm that a virtual link is C)? Then we need to
>update the definition of a virtual link removing any
>misleading reference to client/server domain Network elements
>and speak about OCs and OEs.
>
>Q2: if on the other side we considered the virtual link being
>B) (i.e. From IF1 to IF4 hence with an "implicit" node
>connectivity matrix) which would be the drawbacks of this solution?
>
>IB>>  VL cannot start on a customer facing interface. OE is a
>(blocking)
>IB>> switch between access and virtual TE links
>
>
>Thanks
>Daniele
>
>
>
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com<mailto:IBryskin@advao=
ptical.com>]
>>Sent: luned=EC 17 dicembre 2012 21.12
>>To: Gert Grammel; Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP
>>Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>
>>Gert,
>>
>>Please, see in line. I disagree with pretty much everything you say.
>>Igor
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:ccamp=
-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org>]
>On Behalf
>>Of Gert Grammel
>>Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 8:27 AM
>>To: Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP
>>Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>
>>Daniele,
>>
>>Thank you for summarizing the current state of discussion. To move
>>forward and to encourage comments, let me point to some of the issues
>>that are debated:
>>
>>1) Virtual Link: in the terminology statement a virtual link seems to
>>connect two client elements.
>>IB>> The definition says:
>>"1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between two
>>virtual or real network elements in a client layer", what makes you
>>think that anyone ever applied that this is a path between client
>>devices? The definition should say, though: " a potential
>path between
>>two virtual or real server domain network elements"
>>
>> However later on the 3) virtual topology is composed of access links
>>and virtual links. Hence. Virtual links connect server nodes, not
>>client nodes.
>>IB>> see above
>>
>> By doing so, segments (AL and VL) are created.
>>
>>2) The scalability consideration in the appendix for VL is based on
>>terminology 1) rather than on virtual topology
>>
>>IB>> I completely disagree with this, see below
>>
>>3). This way it doesn't describe then the  scalability of a virtual
>>topology (which doesn't necessitate a full mesh) but rather that of a
>>virtual node (which implies a full connectivity matrix).
>>
>>To sum up:
>>1) we have to come up with a crisp definition of a VL in a virtual
>>topology that is different from a terminology 1) VL.
>>Here is a gap
>>2) A Model based on a vitual node or 'terminology 1) links'
>>create n**2 problems on client side and does not scale.
>>3) 'VNT'-virtual-links 3) and access links are supposed to
>address the
>>scaling problem. We need to clean up our terminology.
>Otherwise we end
>>up associating limitations of terminology 1) links with
>VNT-links that
>>address those limitations.
>>
>>IB>> It seems to me that you completely misunderstand current
>>IB>> definitions
>>
>>Now looking at the appendix it sadly reflects the terminology
>confusion
>>and jumps to assessment and conclusions. That's unfortunate:
>>
>>The first line says:
>>Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>>1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly,
>>--> is it now about virtual nodes or virtual links or VNT links?
>>IB>> Virtual Link Model includes access, inter-domain and
>>virtual links
>>IB>> but does not include virtual nodes
>>
>>2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is by
>>having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the middle
>>of the virtual topology
>>--> that's why access links are so useful. They end at server nodes
>>--> which are connected via virtual links
>>
>>IB>> A combination of access and virtual links alone *does not
>>address N**2 problem*.
>>Consider 1000 client devices connected via 1000 access links to the
>>network that need to be fully interconnected. You will need
>1000000 VLs
>>to do so. You need to have one or more Virtual Nodes in the middle of
>>the virtual topology to solve this issue. Overlay Network Topology is
>>no different from real network topology, and real network
>topologies do
>>include Ps, not just PEs
>>
>>3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain
>>switches, because, generally speaking:
>>--> in case of VNT-VLs no intermediate nodes are necessarily required
>>IB>> See  above, IMO you are dead wrong
>>
>>4.  --> No need to comment, this way doesn't scale anyway.
>>IB>> ONTs with virtual nodes scale no worse that real network
>>topologies
>>
>>5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could
>>potentially go through a real server domain switch, the latter's
>>connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so that the two
>>services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail
>if a single
>>internal element shared by the services fails
>>--> who is 'you' that computes? A client selects among VNT
>>virtual links based on exposed SRLGs, VLs are computed by the server
>>with full knowledge of constraints. So what does an 'internal' SRLG
>>mean to a server path computation?
>>
>>IB>> You is the client path computer. If the two paths are
>>going through
>>IB>> the same node, they may overlap inside the node, which
>means they
>>IB>> can be brought down by a single network failure. That's why you
>>IB>> need to expose  node's internal SRLGs or try to find node
>>disjoint
>>IB>> paths (which may not be available)
>>
>>6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be
>>addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking
>>switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no difference
>>between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
>>--> I suggest to model a complete network of say 5 nodes in a
>>single VN and compare it with the model of a single real node.
>>
>>IB>> Please, do that
>>
>>--> The assessments made have used a terminology definition
>>that doesn't really capture the case made for VNT-VLs.
>>That's why I would have had appreciated to split definitions and work
>>items agreed among a group from individual assessments in separate
>>emails.
>>Nevertheless I consider the first part of your email (all except the
>>appendix) as a good starting point for further clarification.
>>
>>Gert
>>________________________________________
>>From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of =
Daniele Ceccarelli
>>Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 12:17:08 PM
>>To: CCAMP
>>Subject: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>
>>Dear CCAMPers,
>>
>>In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the Overlay model
>>framework and related works took place. Some discussions led to some
>>sort of agreemet among a small group of people, some others
>to a set a
>>viable options, some others to totally open issues. I tried to
>>summarize the output of such discussions below so to progress the
>>discussions into a single thread on the WG ML.
>>
>>Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a well shaped
>>and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to provide the basis for
>>starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea (step 1) instead of
>>starting it from scratch (step 0).
>>
>>In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a proposal of the
>>overlay scenario.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Daniele
>>
>>+ Disclaimer:
>> 1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work can be
>>extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.
>>
>>+ Terminology:
>>
>> 1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between two
>>virtual or real network elements in a client layer network  that is
>>maintained/controlled in and by the server domain control
>plane (and as
>>such cannot transport any traffic/data and protected from being
>>de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the data plane (and
>>then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving previously
>>advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.
>> 2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or
>more server
>>network  domain nodes that are collectively represented to
>the clients
>>as a single node that exists in the client layer network and
>is capable
>>of terminating of access, inter-domain and virtual links.
>> 3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one or more
>>virtual or real server network domain nodes that exist in the client
>>layer network and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual links.
>> 4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies
>provided by
>>each of server network domains, access and inter-domain links.
>> 5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that link. It
>>can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
>> 6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208
>teminology
>>but (i) receiving virtual topology from the core network and
>requesting
>>the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting the computation and
>>establishment of a path accordingly to gien constraints in the core
>>network and receiving the parameters characterizing such
>path. (ii) =3D=3D
>>UNI.
>> 7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but able to
>>deal with (i) and (ii) above.
>> 8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for signaling
>>and routing messages exchange between Overlay and Core
>network. Routing
>>information consists on virtual topology advertisement. When there is
>>no routing adjacency across the interface it is equivalent to
>the GMPLS
>>UNI defined in 4208.
>>Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information related to
>>path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected SRLG, path
>delay etc,
>>either passed from OE to OC via signaling after the LSP establishment
>>in the core network or from OC to OE to be used as path computation
>>constraints, fall under the definition of signaling info and not
>>routing info).
>> 9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the links
>>between different core networks in the overlay model environment, i.e.
>>Between border OEs. Same features of the ONI apply to this interface.
>>Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name is needed?
>>
>>+ Statements
>> 1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build an overlay
>>topology for the client network domains  2. The overlay topology is
>>comprised of:
>>    a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the
>server network
>>domains). They can be PSC or LSC.
>>    b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server network
>>domains)
>>    c) virtual topology provided by the server network
>domains. Virtual
>>Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) + Connectivity Matrix (with a set of
>>parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments, delay etc for each entry)
>>describing connectivity between access links and virtual links.
>> 3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy  of overlay
>>topologies with overlay/underlay relationships  4. In the context of
>>overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships are
>>peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network integration  5.
>>The overlay model assumes one instance for the client network and a
>>separate instance for the server network and in the ONI case
>the server
>>network also surreptitiously participates in the client network by
>>injecting virtual topology information into it.
>> 6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over
>the ONI (it
>>falls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency is in place
>between OC
>>and OE).
>>
>>+ Open issues/questions
>>
>> 1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about PCE
>and PCEP
>>into the overlay framework context?
>> 2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
>> 3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?
>>
>>+ Appendix:
>>Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>>1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale
>>because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs have the
>>same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs
>>2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is by
>>having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the middle
>>of the virtual topology
>>3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain
>>switches, because, generally speaking:
>>  a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
>>  b)Real switches are named from different naming space
>>  c)real switches individually may not have sufficient resources to
>>terminate virtual links (while a group of real switches collectively
>>will have)
>>  d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual node have
>>better scalability qualities
>>4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real node,
>>you need to keep in mind that real server domain switches are,
>>generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must expose their
>>connectivity matrices
>>5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could
>>potentially go through a real server domain switch, the latter's
>>connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so that the two
>>services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail
>if a single
>>internal element shared by the services fails
>>6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be
>>addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking
>>switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no difference
>>between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
>>7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected to
>>server network domain must be upgraded so that they could understand
>>the connectivity matrices advertised by the border nodes describing
>>connectivity constraints between access links and virtual links they
>>terminate.
>>
>>
>>
>>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>DANIELE CECCARELLI
>>System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro
>>
>>Via E.Melen, 77
>>Genova, Italy
>>Phone +390106002512
>>Mobile +393346725750
>>daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com<mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
>>www.ericsson.com<http://www.ericsson.com>
>>
>>This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive email on
>>the basis of the term set out at www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer<http:/=
/www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>CCAMP mailing list
>>CCAMP@ietf.org<mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org>
>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>
>
_______________________________________________
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Agree, the VN can adverti=
se a connectivity matrix or the VN can be formed such that it consists of t=
he set of VL or access-links that can be connected in a
 non-blocking manner.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Snigdho<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Igor Bry=
skin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 20, 2012 2:03 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Snigdho Bardalai; Snigdho Bardalai<br>
<b>Cc:</b> CCAMP<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">You are correct in saying=
 that the virtual topology presented to the client is an arbitrary mesh of =
VNs interconnected via VLs. VN can be mapped onto exactly
 one, several, a fraction or multiple fractions of real server domain NEs. =
VN (just like a real node) can be blocking or non-blocking. In the latter c=
ase the connectivity matrix advertisement is not required. The client path =
computer will determine a path in
 a form such as OC1-VN1-VL3-VN4-VL2-VN2-OC3. How server domains translate s=
uch paths into real provisioning is their internal matter. It is important,=
 though, that VLs advertise accurate information about fate sharing, delay =
characteristics, bandwidth, etc.
 so that client could have enough information for the computation.<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Igor<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Snigdho =
Bardalai [<a href=3D"mailto:SBardalai@infinera.com">mailto:SBardalai@infine=
ra.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 20, 2012 4:51 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Igor Bryskin; Snigdho Bardalai<br>
<b>Cc:</b> CCAMP<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">OC1-----VN1 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;VN3-----OC2=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; VN1=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">OC5-----VN1 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;VN3-----OC6=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; VN1=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL3=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; VN1=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL4=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN5<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">OC3-----VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN=
4-----OC4<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;VN2=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL5=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN5<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;VN2=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL6=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Consider the picture abov=
e, by hair-pining I am referring to a path such as OC1-VN1-VL3-VN4-VL2-VN2-=
OC3, of course assuming bandwidth is available.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Igor Bryskin<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 20, 2012 1:47 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Snigdho Bardalai<br>
<b>Cc:</b> CCAMP<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context</span><o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Define the &#8220;hair-pi=
nning&#8221;, please</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Snigdho =
Bardalai [<a href=3D"mailto:sbardalai1@gmail.com">mailto:sbardalai1@gmail.c=
om</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 20, 2012 4:34 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Igor Bryskin<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Daniele Ceccarelli; Gert Grammel; CCAMP<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context</span><o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Igor,<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think depending on what the capabilities of the OE=
 are there may be many possibilities. Expanding on your VN examples.<o:p></=
o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Another example could be:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">OC1-----VN1 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;VN3-----OC2=
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; VN1=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">OC5-----VN1 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;VN3-----OC6=
<br>
OC3-----VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4-----OC4<o:p></o:p></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Since virtual-links are potential links the topology=
 would have to be a mesh between the VNs. The other question that is applic=
able here is whether hair-pinning is allowed in a VN?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">OC1-----VN1 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;VN3-----OC2=
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; VN1=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">OC5-----VN1 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;VN3-----OC6=
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; VN1=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL3=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; VN1=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL4=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN5<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">OC3-----VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN=
4-----OC4<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;VN2=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL5=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN5<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;VN2=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3DVL6=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Snigdho<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 8:01 AM, Igor Bryskin &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com" target=3D"_blank">IBryskin@advaop=
tical.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Daniele,<br>
It seems we have a disconnect here.<br>
<br>
OC1-----OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DOE2-----OC2<br>
OC3-----OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DOE2-----OC4<br>
<br>
Generally speaking OEs are blocking switches, and the connectivity matrices=
 need to be advertised by OEs, so that the client path computer will know ,=
 for example, that OC1-OE1 access link can be switched to VL1 (but not to V=
L2). One way to alleviate the client
 path computation from dealing with connectivity matrices is by presenting =
OEs as sets of independent fully symmetrical Virtual Nodes:<br>
<br>
OC1-----VN1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN3-----OC2<br>
OC3-----VN2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVL2=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DVN4-----OC4<br>
<span style=3D"color:#888888"><br>
<span class=3D"hoenzb">Igor</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@erics=
son.com">daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com</a>]<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 4:41 AM<br>
To: Igor Bryskin; Gert Grammel; CCAMP<br>
Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
<br>
Hi Igor,<br>
<br>
Unfortunately your drawing is totally misaligned, is this a correct re-draw=
ing?<br>
<br>
OC1------If1:OE1 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;OE2:IF4---------OC2<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;OE1:If2----------------- If=
3:OE2<br>
<br>
answer : is neither a), b) nor c)<br>
<br>
OC1------If1:OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF4---------OC2<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;OE1:If2----------------- If=
3:OE2<br>
<br>
With respect to Q2:<br>
<br>
&gt;Q2: if on the other side we considered the virtual link being<br>
&gt;B) (i.e. From IF1 to IF4 hence with an &quot;implicit&quot; node<br>
&gt;connectivity matrix) which would be the drawbacks of this solution?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; &nbsp;VL cannot start on a customer facing interface. OE is =
a<br>
&gt;(blocking)<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; switch between access and virtual TE links<br>
<br>
I still believe the tranffic matrix can be implicitely advertised as part o=
f the VL. Consider this:<br>
<br>
OC3------If5:OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL1 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF6---------OC4<br>
OC1------If1:OE1=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL2 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF4---------OC2<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;OE1:If2-------------------I=
f3:OE2<br>
<br>
OE1 is a blocking node because only allows OC3 to be connected to VL1 and O=
C1 to VL2. But if you just advertise VL1 to OC3 (not VL2) and VL2 to OC1 (n=
ot VL1) aren't you implicitely hiding the blocking nature of OE1?<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Daniele<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt;-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com">=
IBryskin@advaoptical.com</a>]<br>
&gt;Sent: mercoled=EC 19 dicembre 2012 18.03<br>
&gt;To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Gert Grammel; CCAMP<br>
&gt;Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Daniele,<br>
&gt;Please, see in line.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@e=
ricsson.com">daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com</a>]<br>
&gt;Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 9:53 AM<br>
&gt;To: Igor Bryskin; Gert Grammel; CCAMP<br>
&gt;Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Hi Igor,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Just focusing on the virtual links for a while; i must admit<br>
&gt;that i'm a bit confused by your last mail. Let's pick the<br>
&gt;figure i sent.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;OC1 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; OC2<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;\ &nbsp; &nbsp;&#43;---&#43;IF2 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; IF3&#43=
;---&#43; &nbsp; &nbsp;/<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp; \IF1|OE1|-------------|OE2|IF4/<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &#43;---&#43; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &#43;---&#43;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;A) Virtual link is from OC1 to OC2<br>
&gt;&gt;B) Virtual link is from IF1 to IF4<br>
&gt;&gt;C) Virtual link is from IF2 to IF3<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; My understanding of your picture is this:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;OC1------If1:OE1<br>
&gt;OE2:IF4---------OC2<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2 My<br>
&gt;answer : is neither a), b) nor c)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;OC1------If1:OE1 &nbsp;=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D OE2:IF4=
---------OC2<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; OE1:If2----------------- If3:OE2<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;VL is between OE1 and OE 2, potential server trail is between<br>
&gt;IF2 and IF3<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;According to the definition given:<br>
&gt;&quot;A virtual link is a potential path between two virtual or<br>
&gt;real network elements in a client layer&quot;<br>
&gt;I would say that a virtual link is from OC1 to OC2, which is A).<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; See above<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Then, from your latest definition:<br>
&gt;&quot; a potential path between two virtual or real server domain<br>
&gt;network elements&quot;<br>
&gt;I would say that a virtual link can be either B) or C).<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; See above<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Then you speak about access links, which implies that the link<br>
&gt;between OC1 and OE1 has its own dignity and hence that the<br>
&gt;virtual link is C) in picture above.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; Links OC1- OE1 and OC2-OE2 are access links<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Now i have 2 questions:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Q1: can you confirm that a virtual link is C)? Then we need to<br>
&gt;update the definition of a virtual link removing any<br>
&gt;misleading reference to client/server domain Network elements<br>
&gt;and speak about OCs and OEs.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Q2: if on the other side we considered the virtual link being<br>
&gt;B) (i.e. From IF1 to IF4 hence with an &quot;implicit&quot; node<br>
&gt;connectivity matrix) which would be the drawbacks of this solution?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; &nbsp;VL cannot start on a customer facing interface. OE is =
a<br>
&gt;(blocking)<br>
&gt;IB&gt;&gt; switch between access and virtual TE links<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Thanks<br>
&gt;Daniele<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;&gt;From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.c=
om">IBryskin@advaoptical.com</a>]<br>
&gt;&gt;Sent: luned=EC 17 dicembre 2012 21.12<br>
&gt;&gt;To: Gert Grammel; Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP<br>
&gt;&gt;Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Gert,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Please, see in line. I disagree with pretty much everything you say=
.<br>
&gt;&gt;Igor<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;&gt;From: <a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.=
org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@iet=
f.org</a>]<br>
&gt;On Behalf<br>
&gt;&gt;Of Gert Grammel<br>
&gt;&gt;Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 8:27 AM<br>
&gt;&gt;To: Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP<br>
&gt;&gt;Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Daniele,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Thank you for summarizing the current state of discussion. To move<=
br>
&gt;&gt;forward and to encourage comments, let me point to some of the issu=
es<br>
&gt;&gt;that are debated:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;1) Virtual Link: in the terminology statement a virtual link seems =
to<br>
&gt;&gt;connect two client elements.<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; The definition says:<br>
&gt;&gt;&quot;1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between t=
wo<br>
&gt;&gt;virtual or real network elements in a client layer&quot;, what make=
s you<br>
&gt;&gt;think that anyone ever applied that this is a path between client<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;devices? The definition should say, though: &quot; a potential<br>
&gt;path between<br>
&gt;&gt;two virtual or real server domain network elements&quot;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; However later on the 3) virtual topology is composed of access lin=
ks<br>
&gt;&gt;and virtual links. Hence. Virtual links connect server nodes, not<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;client nodes.<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; see above<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; By doing so, segments (AL and VL) are created.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;2) The scalability consideration in the appendix for VL is based on=
<br>
&gt;&gt;terminology 1) rather than on virtual topology<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; I completely disagree with this, see below<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;3). This way it doesn't describe then the &nbsp;scalability of a vi=
rtual<br>
&gt;&gt;topology (which doesn't necessitate a full mesh) but rather that of=
 a<br>
&gt;&gt;virtual node (which implies a full connectivity matrix).<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;To sum up:<br>
&gt;&gt;1) we have to come up with a crisp definition of a VL in a virtual<=
br>
&gt;&gt;topology that is different from a terminology 1) VL.<br>
&gt;&gt;Here is a gap<br>
&gt;&gt;2) A Model based on a vitual node or 'terminology 1) links'<br>
&gt;&gt;create n**2 problems on client side and does not scale.<br>
&gt;&gt;3) 'VNT'-virtual-links 3) and access links are supposed to<br>
&gt;address the<br>
&gt;&gt;scaling problem. We need to clean up our terminology.<br>
&gt;Otherwise we end<br>
&gt;&gt;up associating limitations of terminology 1) links with<br>
&gt;VNT-links that<br>
&gt;&gt;address those limitations.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; It seems to me that you completely misunderstand current=
<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; definitions<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Now looking at the appendix it sadly reflects the terminology<br>
&gt;confusion<br>
&gt;&gt;and jumps to assessment and conclusions. That's unfortunate:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;The first line says:<br>
&gt;&gt;Some notes on the Virtual Node:<br>
&gt;&gt;1. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Virtual Link Model along, sadly,<br>
&gt;&gt;--&gt; is it now about virtual nodes or virtual links or VNT links?=
<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; Virtual Link Model includes access, inter-domain and<br>
&gt;&gt;virtual links<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; but does not include virtual nodes<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;2. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual L=
inks is by<br>
&gt;&gt;having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the midd=
le<br>
&gt;&gt;of the virtual topology<br>
&gt;&gt;--&gt; that's why access links are so useful. They end at server no=
des<br>
&gt;&gt;--&gt; which are connected via virtual links<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; A combination of access and virtual links alone *does no=
t<br>
&gt;&gt;address N**2 problem*.<br>
&gt;&gt;Consider 1000 client devices connected via 1000 access links to the=
<br>
&gt;&gt;network that need to be fully interconnected. You will need<br>
&gt;1000000 VLs<br>
&gt;&gt;to do so. You need to have one or more Virtual Nodes in the middle =
of<br>
&gt;&gt;the virtual topology to solve this issue. Overlay Network Topology =
is<br>
&gt;&gt;no different from real network topology, and real network<br>
&gt;topologies do<br>
&gt;&gt;include Ps, not just PEs<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;3. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;These intermediate nodes cannot be real serv=
er domain<br>
&gt;&gt;switches, because, generally speaking:<br>
&gt;&gt;--&gt; in case of VNT-VLs no intermediate nodes are necessarily req=
uired<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; See &nbsp;above, IMO you are dead wrong<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;4. &nbsp;--&gt; No need to comment, this way doesn't scale anyway.<=
br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; ONTs with virtual nodes scale no worse that real network=
<br>
&gt;&gt;topologies<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;5. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths t=
hat could<br>
&gt;&gt;potentially go through a real server domain switch, the latter's<br=
>
&gt;&gt;connectivity matrix must expose &quot;internal&quot; SRLGs, so that=
 the two<br>
&gt;&gt;services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail<br>
&gt;if a single<br>
&gt;&gt;internal element shared by the services fails<br>
&gt;&gt;--&gt; who is 'you' that computes? A client selects among VNT<br>
&gt;&gt;virtual links based on exposed SRLGs, VLs are computed by the serve=
r<br>
&gt;&gt;with full knowledge of constraints. So what does an 'internal' SRLG=
<br>
&gt;&gt;mean to a server path computation?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; You is the client path computer. If the two paths are<br=
>
&gt;&gt;going through<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; the same node, they may overlap inside the node, which<b=
r>
&gt;means they<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; can be brought down by a single network failure. That's =
why you<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; need to expose &nbsp;node's internal SRLGs or try to fin=
d node<br>
&gt;&gt;disjoint<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; paths (which may not be available)<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;6. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;If you walk through all cases that need to b=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking=
<br>
&gt;&gt;switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no differenc=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;between a virtual node and real blocking real node.<br>
&gt;&gt;--&gt; I suggest to model a complete network of say 5 nodes in a<br=
>
&gt;&gt;single VN and compare it with the model of a single real node.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;IB&gt;&gt; Please, do that<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;--&gt; The assessments made have used a terminology definition<br>
&gt;&gt;that doesn't really capture the case made for VNT-VLs.<br>
&gt;&gt;That's why I would have had appreciated to split definitions and wo=
rk<br>
&gt;&gt;items agreed among a group from individual assessments in separate<=
br>
&gt;&gt;emails.<br>
&gt;&gt;Nevertheless I consider the first part of your email (all except th=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;appendix) as a good starting point for further clarification.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Gert<br>
&gt;&gt;________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt;From: <a href=3D"mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org">ccamp-bounces@ietf.=
org</a> on behalf of Daniele Ceccarelli<br>
&gt;&gt;Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 12:17:08 PM<br>
&gt;&gt;To: CCAMP<br>
&gt;&gt;Subject: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Dear CCAMPers,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the Overlay model=
<br>
&gt;&gt;framework and related works took place. Some discussions led to som=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;sort of agreemet among a small group of people, some others<br>
&gt;to a set a<br>
&gt;&gt;viable options, some others to totally open issues. I tried to<br>
&gt;&gt;summarize the output of such discussions below so to progress the<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;discussions into a single thread on the WG ML.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a well shap=
ed<br>
&gt;&gt;and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to provide the basis for<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea (step 1) instead of=
<br>
&gt;&gt;starting it from scratch (step 0).<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a proposal of t=
he<br>
&gt;&gt;overlay scenario.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt;Daniele<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&#43; Disclaimer:<br>
&gt;&gt; 1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work can be=
<br>
&gt;&gt;extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&#43; Terminology:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; 1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between two<br=
>
&gt;&gt;virtual or real network elements in a client layer network &nbsp;th=
at is<br>
&gt;&gt;maintained/controlled in and by the server domain control<br>
&gt;plane (and as<br>
&gt;&gt;such cannot transport any traffic/data and protected from being<br>
&gt;&gt;de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the data plane (an=
d<br>
&gt;&gt;then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving previousl=
y<br>
&gt;&gt;advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.<br>
&gt;&gt; 2. &nbsp;Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or<br>
&gt;more server<br>
&gt;&gt;network &nbsp;domain nodes that are collectively represented to<br>
&gt;the clients<br>
&gt;&gt;as a single node that exists in the client layer network and<br>
&gt;is capable<br>
&gt;&gt;of terminating of access, inter-domain and virtual links.<br>
&gt;&gt; 3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one or mor=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;virtual or real server network domain nodes that exist in the clien=
t<br>
&gt;&gt;layer network and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual links.<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; 4. Overlay topology: &nbsp;is a superset of virtual topologies<br>
&gt;provided by<br>
&gt;&gt;each of server network domains, access and inter-domain links.<br>
&gt;&gt; 5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that link. I=
t<br>
&gt;&gt;can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.<br>
&gt;&gt; 6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208<br>
&gt;teminology<br>
&gt;&gt;but (i) receiving virtual topology from the core network and<br>
&gt;requesting<br>
&gt;&gt;the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting the computation and<br=
>
&gt;&gt;establishment of a path accordingly to gien constraints in the core=
<br>
&gt;&gt;network and receiving the parameters characterizing such<br>
&gt;path. (ii) =3D=3D<br>
&gt;&gt;UNI.<br>
&gt;&gt; 7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but able to=
<br>
&gt;&gt;deal with (i) and (ii) above.<br>
&gt;&gt; 8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for signali=
ng<br>
&gt;&gt;and routing messages exchange between Overlay and Core<br>
&gt;network. Routing<br>
&gt;&gt;information consists on virtual topology advertisement. When there =
is<br>
&gt;&gt;no routing adjacency across the interface it is equivalent to<br>
&gt;the GMPLS<br>
&gt;&gt;UNI defined in 4208.<br>
&gt;&gt;Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information related =
to<br>
&gt;&gt;path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected SRLG, path<br>
&gt;delay etc,<br>
&gt;&gt;either passed from OE to OC via signaling after the LSP establishme=
nt<br>
&gt;&gt;in the core network or from OC to OE to be used as path computation=
<br>
&gt;&gt;constraints, fall under the definition of signaling info and not<br=
>
&gt;&gt;routing info).<br>
&gt;&gt; 9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the links<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;between different core networks in the overlay model environment, i=
.e.<br>
&gt;&gt;Between border OEs. Same features of the ONI apply to this interfac=
e.<br>
&gt;&gt;Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name is needed?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&#43; Statements<br>
&gt;&gt; 1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build an overl=
ay<br>
&gt;&gt;topology for the client network domains &nbsp;2. The overlay topolo=
gy is<br>
&gt;&gt;comprised of:<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the<b=
r>
&gt;server network<br>
&gt;&gt;domains). They can be PSC or LSC.<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server n=
etwork<br>
&gt;&gt;domains)<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;c) virtual topology provided by the server network<br=
>
&gt;domains. Virtual<br>
&gt;&gt;Links &#43; Virtual Nodes (TBD) &#43; Connectivity Matrix (with a s=
et of<br>
&gt;&gt;parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments, delay etc for each entry=
)<br>
&gt;&gt;describing connectivity between access links and virtual links.<br>
&gt;&gt; 3. In the context of overlay model we manage &nbsp;hierarchy &nbsp=
;of overlay<br>
&gt;&gt;topologies with overlay/underlay relationships &nbsp;4. In the cont=
ext of<br>
&gt;&gt;overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships are<br>
&gt;&gt;peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network integration =
&nbsp;5.<br>
&gt;&gt;The overlay model assumes one instance for the client network and a=
<br>
&gt;&gt;separate instance for the server network and in the ONI case<br>
&gt;the server<br>
&gt;&gt;network also surreptitiously participates in the client network by<=
br>
&gt;&gt;injecting virtual topology information into it.<br>
&gt;&gt; 6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over<br>
&gt;the ONI (it<br>
&gt;&gt;falls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency is in place<br>
&gt;between OC<br>
&gt;&gt;and OE).<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&#43; Open issues/questions<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; 1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about PCE<br>
&gt;and PCEP<br>
&gt;&gt;into the overlay framework context?<br>
&gt;&gt; 2. BGP-LS needs to be considered<br>
&gt;&gt; 3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&#43; Appendix:<br>
&gt;&gt;Some notes on the Virtual Node:<br>
&gt;&gt;1. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not sc=
ale<br>
&gt;&gt;because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs have th=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs<br>
&gt;&gt;2. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual L=
inks is by<br>
&gt;&gt;having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the midd=
le<br>
&gt;&gt;of the virtual topology<br>
&gt;&gt;3. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;These intermediate nodes cannot be real serv=
er domain<br>
&gt;&gt;switches, because, generally speaking:<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;a)Real switches belong to different layer network;<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;b)Real switches are named from different naming space<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;c)real switches individually may not have sufficient resourc=
es to<br>
&gt;&gt;terminate virtual links (while a group of real switches collectivel=
y<br>
&gt;&gt;will have)<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual no=
de have<br>
&gt;&gt;better scalability qualities<br>
&gt;&gt;4. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Even if you map a virtual node on a single r=
eal node,<br>
&gt;&gt;you need to keep in mind that real server domain switches are,<br>
&gt;&gt;generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must expose their=
<br>
&gt;&gt;connectivity matrices<br>
&gt;&gt;5. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths t=
hat could<br>
&gt;&gt;potentially go through a real server domain switch, the latter's<br=
>
&gt;&gt;connectivity matrix must expose &quot;internal&quot; SRLGs, so that=
 the two<br>
&gt;&gt;services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail<br>
&gt;if a single<br>
&gt;&gt;internal element shared by the services fails<br>
&gt;&gt;6. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;If you walk through all cases that need to b=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking=
<br>
&gt;&gt;switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no differenc=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;between a virtual node and real blocking real node.<br>
&gt;&gt;7. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs co=
nnected to<br>
&gt;&gt;server network domain must be upgraded so that they could understan=
d<br>
&gt;&gt;the connectivity matrices advertised by the border nodes describing=
<br>
&gt;&gt;connectivity constraints between access links and virtual links the=
y<br>
&gt;&gt;terminate.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
&gt;&gt;DANIELE CECCARELLI<br>
&gt;&gt;System &amp; Technology - PDU Optical &amp; Metro<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;Via E.Melen, 77<br>
&gt;&gt;Genova, Italy<br>
&gt;&gt;Phone &#43;390106002512<br>
&gt;&gt;Mobile &#43;393346725750<br>
&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com">daniele.ceccarel=
li@ericsson.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"http://www.ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">www.ericsson.=
com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive email =
on<br>
&gt;&gt;the basis of the term set out at <a href=3D"http://www.ericsson.com=
/email_disclaimer" target=3D"_blank">
www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;_______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt;CCAMP mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org">CCAMP@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp" target=3D"_=
blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
CCAMP mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:CCAMP@ietf.org">CCAMP@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
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</div>
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</html>

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From lberger@labn.net  Thu Dec 20 15:29:50 2012
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Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 18:29:21 -0500
From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-04.txt
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Daniele / Authors,
	Thank you for the response.  Please see below for my responses.


On 12/20/2012 3:57 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
> Hi Lou,
> 
> Below you can find the last call comments pasted with replies in line.
> 
> All nits, typos and suggested text changes without any comment in
> line have been accepted/modified accordingly.
> 

> BR
> Daniele & Sergio
> 
> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] 
>> On Behalf
>> Of Lou Berger
>>> Sent: mercoledì 26 ottobre 2011 0.37
>>> To: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3@tools.ietf.org
>>> Cc: CCAMP
>>> Subject: [CCAMP] some comments on gmpls-ospf-g709v3-00
>> ...
>>> 2) SCSI TLV formatting
>>>
>>> The field descriptions are missing format related conformance
>>> (RFC2119) language.
>>>
> 
> Done

Thanks.

Some points:
(Using line numbers from
http://tools.ietf.org/idnits?url=http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-04.txt)

I like your solution for the general TLV format definition.

Lines 303/304: "Different sub-TLV MAY be presented in ascending Type order."

I suspect you mean s/Different sub-TLV/Multiple sub-TLVs

By "ascending Type order", are you refering to the TLV type? Are
multiple TLVs of the same type allowed? If not, how are errors handled?

Lines 306-322:

Given that Figures 4 and 5 completely repeat the information in Figure
4, I propose that you drop Figure 4. (and align the preceding paragraph
to match.)

> 
>>>
>>> 3) SCSI TLV procedures
>>>
>>> You have defined the formats of the TLVs in Section 4.1, but not 
>>> explicitly how they are to be used. Some RFC2119 language really is 
>>> needed to cover how the SCSI is to be encoded and parsed. At a 
>>> minimum, any TLV inclusion, ordering requirements, and exception 
>>> handling should be covered. (For example, your examples 
>> always show a 
>>> particular ordering relative to Stage#, is this required, 
>> recommended, 
>>> or just a possibility. You have some informative language, which is 
>>> great, but you also need some RFC2119 language.)
> 
> Done

The length of each TLV type and each field should be defined. (You have
it for some fields, but not others).

414  With respect to ODUflex, ODUflex Constant Bit Rate (CBR) and
415  ODUflex Generig Framing Procedure-Frame mapped (GFP-F) MUST
416  always be advertised separately as they use different
417  adaptation functions.  In the case both GFP-F resizable and non
418  resizable (i.e. 21 and 22) are supported, Signal Type 21
419  implicitely supports also signal Signal Type 22, so only Signal
420  Type 21 MUST be advertised.  Signal Type 22 MUST be used only
421  for non resizable resources.

Shouldn't this text be moved to after line 304?

Line 416: By separately do you mean "in separate TLVs"?

Lines 416/7: Your reference to "different adaptation functions" lacks
context as it is the sole reference in the document to "adaptation
functions".  I think you need to either define this terminology (via
reference is fine) or replace it some other terminology.

Line 419/whole document: Please double check the document for spelling
errors (there's one in the above paragraph.)

Line 423:

By "number of multiplexing stages level below the indicated signal
type", do you mean "number of multiplexing stages represented as
transporting the indicated signal type"?

Lines 424-426.  It's best not to define semantics through example.  How
about replacing 423-426 with:

- Number of stages (8 bits): This field indicates the number of
multiplexing stages used to transport the indicated signal type. It MUST
be set to the number of stages represented in the TLV.


Line 428: s/Flags:/Flags (8 bits)

Lines 455-462: should be revised to use 2119 conformance language (and
to clarify the malformed text.)

The "RES" field isn't defined.

464-479: I know what you mean, but I think the text really isn't clear
and should be revised.  Suggest you just rewrite rather then tweak (as
we tried in this rev.) I'm happy to discuss on list if that will help.

481-493: I still find this text is really confusing.  I think it would
cleaner to separate out the fixed container and variable container field
definitions (3 definitions: Unres ODUj at Prio N, Unreserved Bandwidth
at priority N, and MAX LSP Bandwidth at priority N). Again happy to
discuss further on list.

> 
>> ...
>>> 6) Finally, some nits:
>>> s/[OTN-INFO], the OSPF-TE/[OTN-INFO], OSPF-TE s/list of them/list
>> s/Priority :8 bits/Priority (8 bits):
>>> s/infer/imply
>>>
>>>
>>
>> - You have some very nice examples, but are inconsistent in 
>> filling in field values.  I think all values that can possibly 
>> be filled in in the examples should be.
>>
> 
> All the relevant ones have been introduces. Some non relevant fields
> have been left with just the field name in. E.g. In an example
> showing priorities management the T, S and TSG fields have not been
> filled with 1 or 0 but just T,S and TSG have been left to make the
> reading easier.
> 

I think this will confuse some readers.  I think it would be better  to
fill in as much as possible, and if not, indicate that the fields are
not important to the case (or can carry a specific set of values).  For
example why not show that reserved&padding fields are 0, that the
SWCaps=OTN-TDM, etc.

>> Detailed editorial and technical comments:
>>
Thank you!
[...]


>> - Section 7 -- update to reference 4203 and 5920.  Discuss 
>> implications / added risk of additional information provided 
>> in this document.
> Reference to 4203 added and this piece of text added at the end:
> 
>    For security threats, defensive techniques, monitoring/detection/
>    reporting of security attacks and requirements please refer to
>    [RFC5920] .
> 
>>
>> Section 8.  This section needs some work.  (I'm assuming your 
>> familiar with rfc5226).
> 

Hereto, we'll see what the reviewers say...

> What about:
> 
> 8.  IANA Considerations
> 
>    Upon approval of this document, IANA will make the assignment of a
>    new registry, the "OTN-TDM Container Registry" under a new GMPLS
>    Routing Parameters" with two new types (1 and 2)
> 
> 
>    Switching Type           Description                Reference
>    ----------------------  --------------------------  ----------
>    110 (suggested)          OTN-TDM capable (OTN-TDM)  [This.I-D]
> 
>    This document defines the following sub-TLVs of the ISCD TLV:
> 
>    Value  Sub-TLV
>    -----  -------------------------------------------------
>      1      Unreserved Bandwidth for fixed containers
>      2      Unreserved/MAX LSP bandwidth for flexible containers
> 
>>
>> - Switching types are assigned in
>> http://www.iana.org/assignments/gmpls-sig-parameters/gmpls-sig-
>> parameters.xml#gmpls-sig-parameters-3
>> (Again I suggest 110, not 101, but this isn't a big deal)
>>
>> - I think you are actually asking for IANA to establish a new registry.
>> Perhaps something like "OTN-TDM Container Registry" under a 
>> new "GMPLS Routing Parameters" with two new types.

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my prior mail.  I didn't mean for the text to
end up in the draft unmodified.  Take a look at
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-dcsc-channel-ext-04
for an example of how to ask for a new Switching Type, and
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-rfc4420bis-03 for an example
of how to ask for a new TLV registry.

Lou

>>
>> That's it on this document.
>>
>> Lou
>>
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] 
>> On Behalf Of Lou Berger
>> Sent: giovedì 20 dicembre 2012 0.28
>> To: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3@tools.ietf.org; CCAMP
>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: 
>> draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-04.txt
>>
>> Authors?
>>
>> On 12/4/2012 4:34 PM, Lou Berger wrote:
>>> Authors,
>>> 	Please review any changes and how LC comments are addressed.
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>> Lou
>>>
>>> On 11/28/2012 2:37 AM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>>>>
>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line 
>> Internet-Drafts directories.
>>>>  This draft is a work item of the Common Control and 
>> Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.
>>>>
>>>> 	Title           : Traffic Engineering Extensions to 
>> OSPF for Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) Control of Evolving G.709 
>> OTN Networks
>>>> 	Author(s)       : Daniele Ceccarelli
>>>>                           Diego Caviglia
>>>>                           Fatai Zhang
>>>>                           Dan Li
>>>>                           Sergio Belotti
>>>>                           Pietro Vittorio Grandi
>>>>                           Rajan Rao
>>>>                           Khuzema Pithewan
>>>>                           John E Drake
>>>> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-04.txt
>>>> 	Pages           : 33
>>>> 	Date            : 2012-11-27
>>>>
>>>> Abstract:
>>>>    ITU-T Recommendation G.709 [G.709-2012] has introduced 
>> new fixed and
>>>>    flexible Optical Data Unit (ODU) containers, enabling optimized
>>>>    support for an increasingly abundant service mix.
>>>>
>>>>    This document describes Open Shortest Path First - Traffic
>>>>    Engineering (OSPF-TE) routing protocol extensions to support
>>>>    Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) control of all currently defined ODU
>>>>    containers, in support of both sub-lambda and lambda 
>> level routing
>>>>    granularity.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3
>>>>
>>>> There's also a htmlized version available at:
>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-04
>>>>
>>>> A diff from the previous version is available at:
>>>>
>> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-0
>>>> 4
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CCAMP mailing list
>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>
> 
> 
> 

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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Snigdho Bardalai <SBardalai@infinera.com>, Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>, Snigdho Bardalai <sbardalai1@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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From: Snigdho Bardalai <SBardalai@infinera.com>
To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>, Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>, Snigdho Bardalai <sbardalai1@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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To: Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>, Fatai Zhang <zhangfatai@huawei.com>, Gert Grammel <ggrammel@juniper.net>
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Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] R: R:  Overlay model framework and context
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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From daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com  Fri Dec 21 07:49:16 2012
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From: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-04.txt
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Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 15:49:12 +0000
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-04.txt
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Hi Lou,

Please see in line.

We'll upload -05 when all the issues will be solved.

BR
Daniele & Sergio=20

PS. The info model after christmas holidays

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]=20
>Sent: venerd=EC 21 dicembre 2012 0.29
>To: Daniele Ceccarelli
>Cc: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3@tools.ietf.org; CCAMP
>Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action:=20
>draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-04.txt
>
>Daniele / Authors,
>	Thank you for the response.  Please see below for my responses.
>
>
>On 12/20/2012 3:57 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
>> Hi Lou,
>>=20
>> Below you can find the last call comments pasted with=20
>replies in line.
>>=20
>> All nits, typos and suggested text changes without any=20
>comment in line=20
>> have been accepted/modified accordingly.
>>=20
>
>> BR
>> Daniele & Sergio
>>=20
>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org]
>>> On Behalf
>>> Of Lou Berger
>>>> Sent: mercoled=EC 26 ottobre 2011 0.37
>>>> To: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3@tools.ietf.org
>>>> Cc: CCAMP
>>>> Subject: [CCAMP] some comments on gmpls-ospf-g709v3-00
>>> ...
>>>> 2) SCSI TLV formatting
>>>>
>>>> The field descriptions are missing format related conformance
>>>> (RFC2119) language.
>>>>
>>=20
>> Done
>
>Thanks.
>
>Some points:
>(Using line numbers from
>http://tools.ietf.org/idnits?url=3Dhttp://tools.ietf.org/id/draft
-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-04.txt)
>
>I like your solution for the general TLV format definition.
>
>Lines 303/304: "Different sub-TLV MAY be presented in=20
>ascending Type order."
>
>I suspect you mean s/Different sub-TLV/Multiple sub-TLVs
>

See below

>By "ascending Type order", are you refering to the TLV type?=20
>Are multiple TLVs of the same type allowed? If not, how are=20
>errors handled?

Yes and yes. Multiple TLVs of the same type are often present as each of th=
em represents a branch of the muxing tree.
What about changing into:

      Sub-TLV SHOULD be presented
	in ascending Type order (i.e. type 1 before and type 2 after).

>
>Lines 306-322:
>
>Given that Figures 4 and 5 completely repeat the information=20
>in Figure 4, I propose that you drop Figure 4. (and align the=20
>preceding paragraph to match.)

Figure 4 and 5 represent TLV type1 and TLV type2 respectively, which are qu=
ite different from each other. The first 3 rows are identical but the rest =
of the TLV is pretty different. We would prefer to keep both of them.

>
>>=20
>>>>
>>>> 3) SCSI TLV procedures
>>>>
>>>> You have defined the formats of the TLVs in Section 4.1, but not=20
>>>> explicitly how they are to be used. Some RFC2119 language=20
>really is=20
>>>> needed to cover how the SCSI is to be encoded and parsed. At a=20
>>>> minimum, any TLV inclusion, ordering requirements, and exception=20
>>>> handling should be covered. (For example, your examples
>>> always show a
>>>> particular ordering relative to Stage#, is this required,
>>> recommended,
>>>> or just a possibility. You have some informative language,=20
>which is=20
>>>> great, but you also need some RFC2119 language.)
>>=20
>> Done
>
>The length of each TLV type and each field should be defined.=20
>(You have it for some fields, but not others).

Now all of them should have been filled.

>
>414  With respect to ODUflex, ODUflex Constant Bit Rate (CBR) and
>415  ODUflex Generig Framing Procedure-Frame mapped (GFP-F) MUST
>416  always be advertised separately as they use different
>417  adaptation functions.  In the case both GFP-F resizable and non
>418  resizable (i.e. 21 and 22) are supported, Signal Type 21
>419  implicitely supports also signal Signal Type 22, so only=20
>Signal 420  Type 21 MUST be advertised.  Signal Type 22 MUST=20
>be used only
>421  for non resizable resources.
>
>Shouldn't this text be moved to after line 304?

Agree. Done.

>
>Line 416: By separately do you mean "in separate TLVs"?

Yes.changed
>
>Lines 416/7: Your reference to "different adaptation=20
>functions" lacks context as it is the sole reference in the=20
>document to "adaptation functions".  I think you need to=20
>either define this terminology (via reference is fine) or=20
>replace it some other terminology.
>

Reference to [G.805] added

>Line 419/whole document: Please double check the document for=20
>spelling errors (there's one in the above paragraph.)
>
>Line 423:
>
>By "number of multiplexing stages level below the indicated=20
>signal type", do you mean "number of multiplexing stages=20
>represented as transporting the indicated signal type"?
>
>Lines 424-426.  It's best not to define semantics through=20
>example.  How about replacing 423-426 with:
>
>- Number of stages (8 bits): This field indicates the number=20
>of multiplexing stages used to transport the indicated signal=20
>type. It MUST be set to the number of stages represented in the TLV.
>
OK

>
>Line 428: s/Flags:/Flags (8 bits)

ok
>
>Lines 455-462: should be revised to use 2119 conformance=20
>language (and to clarify the malformed text.)

OK

>
>The "RES" field isn't defined.

 <t>- Res (3 bits): reserved bits. MUST be set to 0.</t> =20

>
>464-479: I know what you mean, but I think the text really=20
>isn't clear and should be revised.  Suggest you just rewrite=20
>rather then tweak (as we tried in this rev.) I'm happy to=20
>discuss on list if that will help.
>

OLD
464	      - Priority (8 bits): field with 1 flag for each priority.  Each
465	      bit MUST be set when the related priority is supported and MUST b=
e
466	      cleared when the related priority is not supported.  The priority
467	      0 is related to the most significant bit.  When no priority is
468	      supported, priority 0 MUST be advertised.

470	      - Stage#1 ...  Stage#N : These fields are 8 bits long.  Their
471	      number is variable and a field is present for each of the
472	      indicated number of stages.  The last one MUST always indicate th=
e
473	      server ODU container (ODUk/OTUk) and they MUST be listed in
474	      ascending order.  The values of the Stage fields MUST be the same
475	      ones defined for the Signal Type field.  If the number of stages
476	      is 0, then the Stage and Padding fields MUST be omitted.

478	      - Padding: Given that the number of Stages is variable, padding t=
o
479	      32 bits field MUST be used when needed.

NEW

- Priority (8 bits): bitmap used to state which priorities are being advert=
ised.
The left most bit represent priority 0 (highest) and the right most priorit=
y 7 (lowest)
And are presented in ascending orded. Each
bit MUST be set when the related priority is supported and MUST be
cleared when the related priority is not supported. When the interface does=
 not=20
support priorities, the advertisement MUST be compliant with the advertisem=
ent of priority 0.

- Stage#1 ...  Stage#N : Each field is 8 bits long.  One field MUST be used=
 in ascending order
(from the lowest order ODU to the highest order ODU) for each stage of the =
muxing branch being advertised.
 The last one MUST always indicate the server ODU container (ODUk/OTUk). Th=
e values of the Stage fields MUST be the same
ones defined for the Signal Type field.  If the number of stages is 0, the =
Stage field MUST NOT be included.

- Padding: Padding bytes MUST be inserted so that the
         subsequent field starts at a 4-byte aligned boundary.  It is
         important to note that the Length field includes the padding
         bytes.  Padding SHOULD be using zeros.


>481-493: I still find this text is really confusing.  I think=20
>it would cleaner to separate out the fixed container and=20
>variable container field definitions (3 definitions: Unres=20
>ODUj at Prio N, Unreserved Bandwidth at priority N, and MAX=20
>LSP Bandwidth at priority N). Again happy to discuss further on list.
>

OLD
481	      - Unreserved Bandwidth/Max LSP BW : In case of fixed containers
482	      (Type=3D1) the Unreserved Bandwidth field MUST be 16 bits long an=
d
483	      indicates the Unreserved Bandwidth in number of available
484	      containers.  Unreserved/MAX LSP BW fields for each identified
485	      priority MUST be included, in order of increasing prioritiy (0 to
486	      7) and Unreserved/MAX LSP BW fields for other priority values MUS=
T
487	      be omitted.  In case the number of supported priorities is odd, a
488	      16 bits all zeros padding field MUST be added.  On the other hand=
,
489	      in case of variable containers (Type 2) the Unreserved/MAX LSP
490	      Bandwidth fields MUST be 32 bits long and expressed in IEEE
491	      floating point format.  The advertisement of the MAX LSP bandwidt=
h
492	      MUST take into account HO OPUk bit rate tolerance and be
493	      calculated according to the following formula:

NEW
- Unreserved ODUj at Prio N (16 bits): This field is used only in case of f=
ixed containers (Type=3D1).
It MUST be 16 bits long and indicates the Unreserved Bandwidth in number of=
 available
containers. A different field for each supported priority MUST be used. In =
case the number of=20
supported priorities is odd, a 16 bits all zeros padding field MUST be adde=
d.

- Unreserved Bandwidth at priority N (32 bits): This field is used only in =
case of variable containers (Type=3D2).
It MUST be 32 bits long and indicates the Unreserved Bandwidth in bits/s in=
 IEEE
floating point format. A different field for each supported priority MUST b=
e used.

- MAX LSP Bandwidth at priority N (32 bit): This field is used only in case=
 of variable containers (Type=3D2).
It MUST be 32 bits long and expressed in bits/s in IEEE floating point form=
at.  The advertisement of the MAX LSP bandwidth
MUST take into account HO OPUk bit rate tolerance and be calculated accordi=
ng to the following formula:

>>=20
>>> ...
>>>> 6) Finally, some nits:
>>>> s/[OTN-INFO], the OSPF-TE/[OTN-INFO], OSPF-TE s/list of them/list
>>> s/Priority :8 bits/Priority (8 bits):
>>>> s/infer/imply
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> - You have some very nice examples, but are inconsistent in filling=20
>>> in field values.  I think all values that can possibly be filled in=20
>>> in the examples should be.
>>>
>>=20
>> All the relevant ones have been introduces. Some non relevant fields=20
>> have been left with just the field name in. E.g. In an=20
>example showing=20
>> priorities management the T, S and TSG fields have not been filled=20
>> with 1 or 0 but just T,S and TSG have been left to make the reading=20
>> easier.
>>=20
>
>I think this will confuse some readers.  I think it would be=20
>better  to fill in as much as possible, and if not, indicate=20
>that the fields are not important to the case (or can carry a=20
>specific set of values).  For example why not show that=20
>reserved&padding fields are 0, that the SWCaps=3DOTN-TDM, etc.

Done (only T, S ans TSG left indicated as T, S and TSG when non relevant fo=
r the example)

>
>>> Detailed editorial and technical comments:
>>>
>Thank you!
>[...]
>
>
>>> - Section 7 -- update to reference 4203 and 5920.  Discuss=20
>>> implications / added risk of additional information=20
>provided in this=20
>>> document.
>> Reference to 4203 added and this piece of text added at the end:
>>=20
>>    For security threats, defensive techniques, monitoring/detection/
>>    reporting of security attacks and requirements please refer to
>>    [RFC5920] .
>>=20
>>>
>>> Section 8.  This section needs some work.  (I'm assuming your=20
>>> familiar with rfc5226).
>>=20
>
>Hereto, we'll see what the reviewers say...
>
>> What about:
>>=20
>> 8.  IANA Considerations
>>=20
>>    Upon approval of this document, IANA will make the assignment of a
>>    new registry, the "OTN-TDM Container Registry" under a new GMPLS
>>    Routing Parameters" with two new types (1 and 2)
>>=20
>>=20
>>    Switching Type           Description                Reference
>>    ----------------------  --------------------------  ----------
>>    110 (suggested)          OTN-TDM capable (OTN-TDM)  [This.I-D]
>>=20
>>    This document defines the following sub-TLVs of the ISCD TLV:
>>=20
>>    Value  Sub-TLV
>>    -----  -------------------------------------------------
>>      1      Unreserved Bandwidth for fixed containers
>>      2      Unreserved/MAX LSP bandwidth for flexible containers
>>=20
>>>
>>> - Switching types are assigned in
>>> http://www.iana.org/assignments/gmpls-sig-parameters/gmpls-sig-
>>> parameters.xml#gmpls-sig-parameters-3
>>> (Again I suggest 110, not 101, but this isn't a big deal)
>>>
>>> - I think you are actually asking for IANA to establish a=20
>new registry.
>>> Perhaps something like "OTN-TDM Container Registry" under a new=20
>>> "GMPLS Routing Parameters" with two new types.
>
>Sorry, I wasn't clear in my prior mail.  I didn't mean for the=20
>text to end up in the draft unmodified.  Take a look at
>http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-dcsc-channel-ext-04
>for an example of how to ask for a new Switching Type, and
>http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-rfc4420bis-03 for=20
>an example of how to ask for a new TLV registry.


   Upon approval of this document, IANA will make the assignment in the
   "Switching Types" section of the "GMPLS Signaling Parameters"
   registry located at http://www.iana.org/assignments/gmpls-sig-parameters=
:=20
Value      Type                          Reference
---------  --------------------------    ----------
110 (*)     OTN-TDM capable (OTN-TDM)    [This.I-D]

(*) Suggested value
   This document defines a new sub-TLV for the ISCD sub-TLV. Each
   TLV includes a 16-bit type identifier (the T-field).  Two
   T-field values are applicable to the new sub-TLV.

   The IANA has created a new registry and will manage TLV type
   identifiers as follows:

   - TLV Type (T-field value)
   - TLV Name
   - Whether allowed on LSP_ATTRIBUTES object
   - Whether allowed on LSP_REQUIRED_ATTRIBUTES object.

   This document defines new TLV types as follows:

   - TLV Type =3D 1
   - TLV Name =3D Unreserved Bandwidth for fixed containers
   - allowed on ISCD sub-TLV
  =20
   - TLV Type =3D 2
   - TLV Name =3D Unreserved Bandwidth for fixed containers
   - allowed on ISCD sub-TLV
  =20
   New TLV type values may be allocated only by an IETF Consensus
   action.

>
>Lou
>
>>>
>>> That's it on this document.
>>>
>>> Lou
>>>
>>=20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On=20
>>> Behalf Of Lou Berger
>>> Sent: gioved=EC 20 dicembre 2012 0.28
>>> To: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3@tools.ietf.org; CCAMP
>>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action:=20
>>> draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-04.txt
>>>
>>> Authors?
>>>
>>> On 12/4/2012 4:34 PM, Lou Berger wrote:
>>>> Authors,
>>>> 	Please review any changes and how LC comments are addressed.
>>>>
>>>> Thank you,
>>>> Lou
>>>>
>>>> On 11/28/2012 2:37 AM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line
>>> Internet-Drafts directories.
>>>>>  This draft is a work item of the Common Control and
>>> Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.
>>>>>
>>>>> 	Title           : Traffic Engineering Extensions to=20
>>> OSPF for Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) Control of Evolving G.709 OTN=20
>>> Networks
>>>>> 	Author(s)       : Daniele Ceccarelli
>>>>>                           Diego Caviglia
>>>>>                           Fatai Zhang
>>>>>                           Dan Li
>>>>>                           Sergio Belotti
>>>>>                           Pietro Vittorio Grandi
>>>>>                           Rajan Rao
>>>>>                           Khuzema Pithewan
>>>>>                           John E Drake
>>>>> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-04.txt
>>>>> 	Pages           : 33
>>>>> 	Date            : 2012-11-27
>>>>>
>>>>> Abstract:
>>>>>    ITU-T Recommendation G.709 [G.709-2012] has introduced
>>> new fixed and
>>>>>    flexible Optical Data Unit (ODU) containers, enabling optimized
>>>>>    support for an increasingly abundant service mix.
>>>>>
>>>>>    This document describes Open Shortest Path First - Traffic
>>>>>    Engineering (OSPF-TE) routing protocol extensions to support
>>>>>    Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) control of all currently defined ODU
>>>>>    containers, in support of both sub-lambda and lambda
>>> level routing
>>>>>    granularity.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>>>>>=20
>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3
>>>>>
>>>>> There's also a htmlized version available at:
>>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-04
>>>>>
>>>>> A diff from the previous version is available at:
>>>>>
>>>=20
>http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-0
>>>>> 4
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=

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CCAMP,

Don't forget when scheduling your travel plans - CCAMP will be meeting all =
day on Friday (both morning and afternoon until approx. 5PM) due to the mee=
ting with ITU-T's SG15 Q6 (Optical experts) on our work.

Happy Holidays!
Deborah (and Lou)



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<div>CCAMP,</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Don&#8217;t forget when scheduling your travel plans - CCAMP will be m=
eeting all day on Friday (both morning and afternoon until approx. 5PM) due=
 to the meeting with ITU-T&#8217;s SG15 Q6 (Optical experts) on our work.</=
div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Happy Holidays!</div>
<div>Deborah (and Lou)</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</span></font>
</body>
</html>

--_000_F64C10EAA68C8044B33656FA214632C8239B32MISOUT7MSGUSR9OIT_--

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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-04.txt
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Daniele,
	Much thanks -- I do expect that the thread might extend beyond the end
of year holiday, and that many/most are off next week...

See below for responses.

On 12/21/2012 10:49 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
> Hi Lou,
> 
> Please see in line.
> 
> We'll upload -05 when all the issues will be solved.
> 
> BR
> Daniele & Sergio 
> 
> PS. The info model after christmas holidays
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net] 
>> Sent: venerdì 21 dicembre 2012 0.29
>> To: Daniele Ceccarelli
>> Cc: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3@tools.ietf.org; CCAMP
>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: 
>> draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-04.txt
>>
>> Daniele / Authors,
>> 	Thank you for the response.  Please see below for my responses.
>>
>>
>> On 12/20/2012 3:57 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
>>> Hi Lou,
>>>
>>> Below you can find the last call comments pasted with 
>> replies in line.
>>>
>>> All nits, typos and suggested text changes without any 
>> comment in line 
>>> have been accepted/modified accordingly.
>>>
>>
>>> BR
>>> Daniele & Sergio
>>>
>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org]
>>>> On Behalf
>>>> Of Lou Berger
>>>>> Sent: mercoledì 26 ottobre 2011 0.37
>>>>> To: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3@tools.ietf.org
>>>>> Cc: CCAMP
>>>>> Subject: [CCAMP] some comments on gmpls-ospf-g709v3-00
>>>> ...
>>>>> 2) SCSI TLV formatting
>>>>>
>>>>> The field descriptions are missing format related conformance
>>>>> (RFC2119) language.
>>>>>
>>>
>>> Done
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Some points:
>> (Using line numbers from
>> http://tools.ietf.org/idnits?url=http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft
> -ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-04.txt)
>>
>> I like your solution for the general TLV format definition.
>>
>> Lines 303/304: "Different sub-TLV MAY be presented in 
>> ascending Type order."
>>
>> I suspect you mean s/Different sub-TLV/Multiple sub-TLVs
>>
> 
> See below
> 
>> By "ascending Type order", are you refering to the TLV type? 
>> Are multiple TLVs of the same type allowed? If not, how are 
>> errors handled?
> 
> Yes and yes. Multiple TLVs of the same type are often present as each of them represents a branch of the muxing tree.
> What about changing into:
> 
>       Sub-TLV SHOULD be presented
> 	in ascending Type order (i.e. type 1 before and type 2 after).

Is there any technical reason for such ordering? It doesn't seem to add
any value to me.

I actually was expecting you to say something referring back to signal
type or number of stages represented in the TLV...

> 
>>
>> Lines 306-322:
>>
>> Given that Figures 4 and 5 completely repeat the information 
>> in Figure 4, I propose that you drop Figure 4. (and align the 
>> preceding paragraph to match.)
> 
> Figure 4 and 5 represent TLV type1 and TLV type2 respectively, which are quite different from each other. The first 3 rows are identical but the rest of the TLV is pretty different. We would prefer to keep both of them.
> 

Ahh.  Sorry, let me try again:

Given that Figures 4 and 5 completely repeat the information
in Figure *4*, I propose that you drop Figure *3*. (and align the
preceding paragraph to match.)

Also, just realized that figures 4 and 5 really should indicate that
priorities are not always included.  And that a second padding field may
be needed too! How about:


   0                   1                   2                   3
   0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |        Type = 1 (Unres-fix)   |           Length              |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |  Signal Type  | Num of Stages |T|S| TSG | Res |   Priority    |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |    Stage#1    |      ...      |   Stage#N     |    Padding    |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |  Unreserved ODUj at Prio 0    |             .....             |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |  Unreserved ODUj at Prio 7    |       Unreserved Padding      |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

                    Figure 4: Bandwidth TLV - Type 1 -


   0                   1                   2                   3
   0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |    Type = 2 (Unres/MAX-var)   |           Length              |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |  Signal Type  | Num of Stages |T|S| TSG | Res |   Priority    |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |    Stage#1    |      ...      |   Stage#N     |    Padding    |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |                Unreserved Bandwidth at priority 0             |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |                              ...                              |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |                Unreserved Bandwidth at priority 7             |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |               Maximum LSP Bandwidth at priority 0             |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |                              ...                              |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |               Maximum LSP Bandwidth at priority 7             |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

                    Figure 5: Bandwidth TLV - Type 2 -

(Note some field names have been expanded to match descriptions)

>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 3) SCSI TLV procedures
>>>>>
>>>>> You have defined the formats of the TLVs in Section 4.1, but not 
>>>>> explicitly how they are to be used. Some RFC2119 language 
>> really is 
>>>>> needed to cover how the SCSI is to be encoded and parsed. At a 
>>>>> minimum, any TLV inclusion, ordering requirements, and exception 
>>>>> handling should be covered. (For example, your examples
>>>> always show a
>>>>> particular ordering relative to Stage#, is this required,
>>>> recommended,
>>>>> or just a possibility. You have some informative language, 
>> which is 
>>>>> great, but you also need some RFC2119 language.)
>>>
>>> Done
>>
>> The length of each TLV type and each field should be defined. 
>> (You have it for some fields, but not others).
> 
> Now all of them should have been filled.
> 

great.

>>
>> 414  With respect to ODUflex, ODUflex Constant Bit Rate (CBR) and
>> 415  ODUflex Generig Framing Procedure-Frame mapped (GFP-F) MUST
>> 416  always be advertised separately as they use different
>> 417  adaptation functions.  In the case both GFP-F resizable and non
>> 418  resizable (i.e. 21 and 22) are supported, Signal Type 21
>> 419  implicitely supports also signal Signal Type 22, so only 
>> Signal 420  Type 21 MUST be advertised.  Signal Type 22 MUST 
>> be used only
>> 421  for non resizable resources.
>>
>> Shouldn't this text be moved to after line 304?
> 
> Agree. Done.

great.

> 
>>
>> Line 416: By separately do you mean "in separate TLVs"?
> 
> Yes.changed

great.

>>
>> Lines 416/7: Your reference to "different adaptation 
>> functions" lacks context as it is the sole reference in the 
>> document to "adaptation functions".  I think you need to 
>> either define this terminology (via reference is fine) or 
>> replace it some other terminology.
>>
> 
> Reference to [G.805] added

okay. Given the signal type definitions are in [OTN-SIG], what
additional information is added by this paragraph? What am I missing?

> 
>> Line 419/whole document: Please double check the document for 
>> spelling errors (there's one in the above paragraph.)
>>
>> Line 423:
>>
>> By "number of multiplexing stages level below the indicated 
>> signal type", do you mean "number of multiplexing stages 
>> represented as transporting the indicated signal type"?
>>
>> Lines 424-426.  It's best not to define semantics through 
>> example.  How about replacing 423-426 with:
>>
>> - Number of stages (8 bits): This field indicates the number 
>> of multiplexing stages used to transport the indicated signal 
>> type. It MUST be set to the number of stages represented in the TLV.
>>
> OK
> 
>>
>> Line 428: s/Flags:/Flags (8 bits)
> 
> ok
>>
>> Lines 455-462: should be revised to use 2119 conformance 
>> language (and to clarify the malformed text.)
> 
> OK
> 
>>
>> The "RES" field isn't defined.
> 
>  <t>- Res (3 bits): reserved bits. MUST be set to 0.</t>  

"and ignored on receipt."

> 
>>
>> 464-479: I know what you mean, but I think the text really 
>> isn't clear and should be revised.  Suggest you just rewrite 
>> rather then tweak (as we tried in this rev.) I'm happy to 
>> discuss on list if that will help.
>>
> 
> OLD
> 464	      - Priority (8 bits): field with 1 flag for each priority.  Each
> 465	      bit MUST be set when the related priority is supported and MUST be
> 466	      cleared when the related priority is not supported.  The priority
> 467	      0 is related to the most significant bit.  When no priority is
> 468	      supported, priority 0 MUST be advertised.
> 
> 470	      - Stage#1 ...  Stage#N : These fields are 8 bits long.  Their
> 471	      number is variable and a field is present for each of the
> 472	      indicated number of stages.  The last one MUST always indicate the
> 473	      server ODU container (ODUk/OTUk) and they MUST be listed in
> 474	      ascending order.  The values of the Stage fields MUST be the same
> 475	      ones defined for the Signal Type field.  If the number of stages
> 476	      is 0, then the Stage and Padding fields MUST be omitted.
> 
> 478	      - Padding: Given that the number of Stages is variable, padding to
> 479	      32 bits field MUST be used when needed.
> 
> NEW
> 
> - Priority (8 bits): bitmap used to state which priorities are being
s/state/indicate
> advertised. The left most bit represent priority 0 (highest) and the
> right most priority 7 (lowest) And are presented in ascending orded.
s/) A/), a
s/orded/ordered

> Each bit MUST be set when the related priority is supported and MUST
"A bit MUST be set (1) for each corresponding priority represented in
the TLV and MUST"

> be cleared when the related priority is not supported. 
s/be cleared/NOT be set (0)
s/supported/represented.

> When the
> interface does not support priorities, the advertisement MUST be
> compliant with the advertisement of priority 0.
> 
Replace with
"At least one priority level MUST be advertised.  A value of zero (0)
MUST be used when not overridden by local policy."

> - Stage#1 ...  Stage#N : Each field is 8 bits long.  One field MUST
> be used in ascending order (from the lowest order ODU to the highest
> order ODU) for each stage of the muxing branch being advertised. The
> last one MUST always indicate the server ODU container (ODUk/OTUk).
> The values of the Stage fields MUST be the same ones defined for the
> Signal Type field.  If the number of stages is 0, the Stage field
> MUST NOT be included.
> 
How about:
Stage (8 bits): Each Stage field indicates the signal type used in the
to transport the signal indicated in the Signal Type field. The number
of Stage fields included in a TLV MUST equal the value of the Number of
Stages field.  The Stage fields MUST be ordered to match the data plane
in ascending order (from the lowest order ODU to the highest order ODU).


> - Padding: Padding bytes MUST be inserted so that the
>          subsequent field starts at a 4-byte aligned boundary.  It is
>          important to note that the Length field includes the padding
>          bytes.  Padding SHOULD be using zeros.
> 
How about:
Padding (variable): The Padding field is used to ensure the 32 bit
alignment of stage fields. The length of the Padding field is always a
multiple of 8 bits (1 byte).  Its length can be calculated, in bytes, as:
      <value of Number of Stages field> % 4
When present, the Padding field MUST be set to a zero (0) value on
transmission and MUST be ignored on receipt.

> 
>> 481-493: I still find this text is really confusing.  I think 
>> it would cleaner to separate out the fixed container and 
>> variable container field definitions (3 definitions: Unres 
>> ODUj at Prio N, Unreserved Bandwidth at priority N, and MAX 
>> LSP Bandwidth at priority N). Again happy to discuss further on list.
>>
> 
> OLD
> 481	      - Unreserved Bandwidth/Max LSP BW : In case of fixed containers
> 482	      (Type=1) the Unreserved Bandwidth field MUST be 16 bits long and
> 483	      indicates the Unreserved Bandwidth in number of available
> 484	      containers.  Unreserved/MAX LSP BW fields for each identified
> 485	      priority MUST be included, in order of increasing prioritiy (0 to
> 486	      7) and Unreserved/MAX LSP BW fields for other priority values MUST
> 487	      be omitted.  In case the number of supported priorities is odd, a
> 488	      16 bits all zeros padding field MUST be added.  On the other hand,
> 489	      in case of variable containers (Type 2) the Unreserved/MAX LSP
> 490	      Bandwidth fields MUST be 32 bits long and expressed in IEEE
> 491	      floating point format.  The advertisement of the MAX LSP bandwidth
> 492	      MUST take into account HO OPUk bit rate tolerance and be
> 493	      calculated according to the following formula:
> 
> NEW
> - Unreserved ODUj at Prio N (16 bits): This field is used only in
> case of fixed containers (Type=1). It MUST be 16 bits long and
> indicates the Unreserved Bandwidth in number of available containers.
> A different field for each supported priority MUST be used. In case
> the number of supported priorities is odd, a 16 bits all zeros
> padding field MUST be added.
> 
How about:
- Unreserved ODUj (16 bits): This field indicates the Unreserved
Bandwidth at a particular priority level.  This field MUST be set to the
number of ODUs at the indicated the Signal Type for a particular
priority level.  One field MUST be present for each bit set in the
Priority field, and is ordered to match the Priority field. Fields MUST
not be present for priority levels that are not indicated in the
Priority field.This field is REQUIRED for Type 1 (fixed container) TLVs,
and MUST NOT be used for Type 2 TLVs.

Also:
Unreserved Padding (variable): The Padding field is used to ensure the
32 bit alignment of Unreserved ODUj fields. The length of the Unreserved
Padding field is always a multiple of 16 bits (2 byte).  Its length can
be calculated, in bytes, as:
      <number of priorities indicated in Priorities field> % 2
When present, the Unreserved Padding field MUST be set to a zero (0)
value on transmission and MUST be ignored on receipt.

> - Unreserved Bandwidth at priority N (32 bits): This field is used
> only in case of variable containers (Type=2). It MUST be 32 bits long
> and indicates the Unreserved Bandwidth in bits/s in IEEE floating
> point format. A different field for each supported priority MUST be
> used.
> 
How about:
Unreserved Bandwidth (32 bits): This field indicates the Unreserved
Bandwidth at a particular priority level.  This field MUST be set to
the bandwidth,  in bits/s in IEEE floating point format, available at
the indicated the Signal Type for a particular priority level.  One
field MUST be present for each bit set in the Priority field, and is
ordered to match the Priority field. Fields MUST not be present for
priority levels that are not indicated in the Priority field.This field
is REQUIRED for Type 2 (variable container) TLVs, and MUST NOT be used
for Type 1 TLVs.

> - MAX LSP Bandwidth at priority N (32 bit): This field is used only
> in case of variable containers (Type=2). It MUST be 32 bits long and
> expressed in bits/s in IEEE floating point format. The advertisement
> of the MAX LSP bandwidth MUST take into account HO OPUk bit rate
> tolerance and be calculated according to the following formula:
> 
How about:
Maximum LSP Bandwidth (32 bit): This field indicates the maximum
bandwidth that can be allocated for a single LSP at a particular
priority level. This field MUST be set to the maximum bandwidth,  in
bits/s in IEEE floating point format, available to a single LSP at the
indicated the Signal Type for a particular priority level.  One field
MUST be present for each bit set in the Priority field, and is ordered
to match the Priority field. Fields MUST not be present for priority
levels that are not indicated in the Priority field.This field is
REQUIRED for Type 2 (variable container) TLVs, and MUST NOT be used for
Type 1 TLVs.


>>>
>>>> ...
>>>>> 6) Finally, some nits:
>>>>> s/[OTN-INFO], the OSPF-TE/[OTN-INFO], OSPF-TE s/list of them/list
>>>> s/Priority :8 bits/Priority (8 bits):
>>>>> s/infer/imply
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> - You have some very nice examples, but are inconsistent in filling 
>>>> in field values.  I think all values that can possibly be filled in 
>>>> in the examples should be.
>>>>
>>>
>>> All the relevant ones have been introduces. Some non relevant fields 
>>> have been left with just the field name in. E.g. In an 
>> example showing 
>>> priorities management the T, S and TSG fields have not been filled 
>>> with 1 or 0 but just T,S and TSG have been left to make the reading 
>>> easier.
>>>
>>
>> I think this will confuse some readers.  I think it would be 
>> better  to fill in as much as possible, and if not, indicate 
>> that the fields are not important to the case (or can carry a 
>> specific set of values).  For example why not show that 
>> reserved&padding fields are 0, that the SWCaps=OTN-TDM, etc.
> 
> Done (only T, S ans TSG left indicated as T, S and TSG when non relevant for the example)
> 

Will you add text to that effect to each of those examples?

>>
>>>> Detailed editorial and technical comments:
>>>>
>> Thank you!
>> [...]
>>
>>
>>>> - Section 7 -- update to reference 4203 and 5920.  Discuss 
>>>> implications / added risk of additional information 
>> provided in this 
>>>> document.
>>> Reference to 4203 added and this piece of text added at the end:
>>>
>>>    For security threats, defensive techniques, monitoring/detection/
>>>    reporting of security attacks and requirements please refer to
>>>    [RFC5920] .
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Section 8.  This section needs some work.  (I'm assuming your 
>>>> familiar with rfc5226).
>>>
>>
>> Hereto, we'll see what the reviewers say...
>>
>>> What about:
>>>
>>> 8.  IANA Considerations
>>>
>>>    Upon approval of this document, IANA will make the assignment of a
>>>    new registry, the "OTN-TDM Container Registry" under a new GMPLS
>>>    Routing Parameters" with two new types (1 and 2)
>>>
>>>
>>>    Switching Type           Description                Reference
>>>    ----------------------  --------------------------  ----------
>>>    110 (suggested)          OTN-TDM capable (OTN-TDM)  [This.I-D]
>>>
>>>    This document defines the following sub-TLVs of the ISCD TLV:
>>>
>>>    Value  Sub-TLV
>>>    -----  -------------------------------------------------
>>>      1      Unreserved Bandwidth for fixed containers
>>>      2      Unreserved/MAX LSP bandwidth for flexible containers
>>>
>>>>
>>>> - Switching types are assigned in
>>>> http://www.iana.org/assignments/gmpls-sig-parameters/gmpls-sig-
>>>> parameters.xml#gmpls-sig-parameters-3
>>>> (Again I suggest 110, not 101, but this isn't a big deal)
>>>>
>>>> - I think you are actually asking for IANA to establish a 
>> new registry.
>>>> Perhaps something like "OTN-TDM Container Registry" under a new 
>>>> "GMPLS Routing Parameters" with two new types.
>>
>> Sorry, I wasn't clear in my prior mail.  I didn't mean for the 
>> text to end up in the draft unmodified.  Take a look at
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-dcsc-channel-ext-04
>> for an example of how to ask for a new Switching Type, and
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-rfc4420bis-03 for 
>> an example of how to ask for a new TLV registry.
> 
> 
>    Upon approval of this document, IANA will make the assignment in the
>    "Switching Types" section of the "GMPLS Signaling Parameters"
>    registry located at http://www.iana.org/assignments/gmpls-sig-parameters: 
> Value      Type                          Reference
> ---------  --------------------------    ----------
> 110 (*)     OTN-TDM capable (OTN-TDM)    [This.I-D]
> 
> (*) Suggested value
>    This document defines a new sub-TLV for the ISCD sub-TLV.
How about
This document defines 2 new TLVs that are carried in Interface Switching
Capability Descriptors [RFC4203] with Signal Type OTN-TDM.

> Each
>    TLV includes a 16-bit type identifier (the T-field).  Two
s/Two/The same
>    T-field values are applicable to the new sub-TLV.
> 
>    IANA
>    The IANA has created a new registry and will manage TLV type
>    identifiers as follows:
How about:
Upon approval of this document, IANA will create and maintain a
new registry, the "sub-TLVs of the OTN-TDM Interface Switching
Capability Descriptor TLV" registry under the "Open Shortest Path First
(OSPF) Traffic Engineering TLVs" registry, see
http://www.iana.org/assignments/ospf-traffic-eng-tlvs/ospf-traffic-eng-tlvs.xml,
 with the TLV types as follows:

> 
>    - TLV Type = 1
>    - TLV Name = Unreserved Bandwidth for fixed containers
>    
>    - TLV Type = 2
>    - TLV Name = Unreserved Bandwidth for fixed containers

The request Registration Procedures are Standards Action.

Lou

> 
>>
>> Lou
>>
>>>>
>>>> That's it on this document.
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org] On 
>>>> Behalf Of Lou Berger
>>>> Sent: giovedì 20 dicembre 2012 0.28
>>>> To: draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3@tools.ietf.org; CCAMP
>>>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] I-D Action: 
>>>> draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-04.txt
>>>>
>>>> Authors?
>>>>
>>>> On 12/4/2012 4:34 PM, Lou Berger wrote:
>>>>> Authors,
>>>>> 	Please review any changes and how LC comments are addressed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> Lou
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/28/2012 2:37 AM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line
>>>> Internet-Drafts directories.
>>>>>>  This draft is a work item of the Common Control and
>>>> Measurement Plane Working Group of the IETF.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 	Title           : Traffic Engineering Extensions to 
>>>> OSPF for Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) Control of Evolving G.709 OTN 
>>>> Networks
>>>>>> 	Author(s)       : Daniele Ceccarelli
>>>>>>                           Diego Caviglia
>>>>>>                           Fatai Zhang
>>>>>>                           Dan Li
>>>>>>                           Sergio Belotti
>>>>>>                           Pietro Vittorio Grandi
>>>>>>                           Rajan Rao
>>>>>>                           Khuzema Pithewan
>>>>>>                           John E Drake
>>>>>> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-04.txt
>>>>>> 	Pages           : 33
>>>>>> 	Date            : 2012-11-27
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Abstract:
>>>>>>    ITU-T Recommendation G.709 [G.709-2012] has introduced
>>>> new fixed and
>>>>>>    flexible Optical Data Unit (ODU) containers, enabling optimized
>>>>>>    support for an increasingly abundant service mix.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    This document describes Open Shortest Path First - Traffic
>>>>>>    Engineering (OSPF-TE) routing protocol extensions to support
>>>>>>    Generalized MPLS (GMPLS) control of all currently defined ODU
>>>>>>    containers, in support of both sub-lambda and lambda
>>>> level routing
>>>>>>    granularity.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>>>>>>
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's also a htmlized version available at:
>>>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-04
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A diff from the previous version is available at:
>>>>>>
>>>>
>> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-ospf-g709v3-0
>>>>>> 4
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
> 
> 
> 

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From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" <db3546@att.com>
To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Thread-Topic: Please publish draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-09
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PROTO-write-up for: draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-09.txt
Intended status: Proposed Standard

(1) What type of RFC is being requested (BCP, Proposed Standard, Internet S=
tandard, Informational, Experimental, or Historic)? Why is this the proper =
type of RFC? Is this type of RFC indicated in the title page header?
Proposed Standard. Yes.
(2) The IESG approval announcement includes a Document Announcement Write-U=
p. Please provide such a Document Announcement Write-Up. Recent examples ca=
n be found in the "Action" announcements for approved documents. The approv=
al announcement contains the following sections:

  Technical Summary:

     Relevant content can frequently be found in the abstract and/or introd=
uction of the document. If not, this may be an indication that there are de=
ficiencies in the abstract or introduction.
     The Link Management Protocol (LMP) is used to coordinate the propertie=
s, use, and faults of data links in Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switchi=
ng (GMPLS) networks. This document defines an extension to LMP to negotiate=
 capabilities and indicate support for LMP extensions. The defined extensio=
n is compatible with non-supporting implementations.

  Working Group Summary:

     Was there anything in WG process that is worth noting? For example, wa=
s there controversy about particular points or were there decisions where t=
he consensus was particularly rough?
     No concerns, the document had good support.

  Document Quality:

     Are there existing implementations of the protocol? Have a significant=
 number of vendors indicated their plan to implement the specification? Are=
 there any reviewers that merit special mention as having done a thorough r=
eview, e.g., one that resulted in important changes or a conclusion that th=
e document had no substantive issues? If there was a MIB Doctor, Media Type=
 or other expert review, what was its course (briefly)? In the case of a Me=
dia Type review, on what date was the request posted?
     There have been no public statements related to implementations, thoug=
h significant interest was expressed by the working group to progress this =
extension of the LMP protocol in support of future extensions.

  Personnel:

     Who is the Document Shepherd? Who is the Responsible Area Director?
     Deborah Brungard is the Document Shepherd. Adrian Farrel is the Respon=
sible Area Director.

(3) Briefly describe the review of this document that was performed by the =
Document Shepherd. If this version of the document is not ready for publica=
tion, please explain why the document is being forwarded to the IESG.
The document is ready for publication.
(4) Does the document Shepherd have any concerns about the depth or breadth=
 of the reviews that have been performed?
No concerns.
(5) Do portions of the document need review from a particular or from broad=
er perspective, e.g., security, operational complexity, AAA, DNS, DHCP, XML=
, or internationalization? If so, describe the review that took place.
No concerns.
(6) Describe any specific concerns or issues that the Document Shepherd has=
 with this document that the Responsible Area Director and/or the IESG shou=
ld be aware of? For example, perhaps he or she is uncomfortable with certai=
n parts of the document, or has concerns whether there really is a need for=
 it. In any event, if the WG has discussed those issues and has indicated t=
hat it still wishes to advance the document, detail those concerns here.
No concerns.
(7) Has each author confirmed that any and all appropriate IPR disclosures =
required for full conformance with the provisions of BCP 78 and BCP 79 have=
 already been filed. If not, explain why?
Yes.
(8) Has an IPR disclosure been filed that references this document? If so, =
summarize any WG discussion and conclusion regarding the IPR disclosures.
No IPR disclosures filed.
(9) How solid is the WG consensus behind this document? Does it represent t=
he strong concurrence of a few individuals, with others being silent, or do=
es the WG as a whole understand and agree with it?
The WG supports this document.
(10) Has anyone threatened an appeal or otherwise indicated extreme discont=
ent? If so, please summarise the areas of conflict in separate email messag=
es to the Responsible Area Director. (It should be in a separate email beca=
use this questionnaire is publicly available.)
None.
(11) Identify any ID nits the Document Shepherd has found in this document.=
 (See http://www.ietf.org/tools/idnits/ and the Internet-Drafts Checklist).=
 Boilerplate checks are not enough; this check needs to be thorough.
Nits passed.
(12) Describe how the document meets any required formal review criteria, s=
uch as the MIB Doctor, media type, and URI type reviews.
No concerns.
(13) Have all references within this document been identified as either nor=
mative or informative?
Yes.
(14) Are there normative references to documents that are not ready for adv=
ancement or are otherwise in an unclear state? If such normative references=
 exist, what is the plan for their completion?
No.
(15) Are there downward normative references references (see RFC 3967)? If =
so, list these downward references to support the Area Director in the Last=
 Call procedure.
No.
(16) Will publication of this document change the status of any existing RF=
Cs? Are those RFCs listed on the title page header, listed in the abstract,=
 and discussed in the introduction? If the RFCs are not listed in the Abstr=
act and Introduction, explain why, and point to the part of the document wh=
ere the relationship of this document to the other RFCs is discussed. If th=
is information is not in the document, explain why the WG considers it unne=
cessary.
This document updates RFC 4204, RFC 4207, RFC 4209 and RFC 5818 (as listed =
on the title page and abstract).
(17) Describe the Document Shepherd's review of the IANA considerations sec=
tion, especially with regard to its consistency with the body of the docume=
nt. Confirm that all protocol extensions that the document makes are associ=
ated with the appropriate reservations in IANA registries. Confirm that any=
 referenced IANA registries have been clearly identified. Confirm that newl=
y created IANA registries include a detailed specification of the initial c=
ontents for the registry, that allocations procedures for future registrati=
ons are defined, and a reasonable name for the new registry has been sugges=
ted (see RFC 5226).
No concerns.
(18) List any new IANA registries that require Expert Review for future all=
ocations. Provide any public guidance that the IESG would find useful in se=
lecting the IANA Experts for these new registries.
No concerns.
(19) Describe reviews and automated checks performed by the Document Shephe=
rd to validate sections of the document written in a formal language, such =
as XML code, BNF rules, MIB definitions, etc.
No concerns.




--_000_F64C10EAA68C8044B33656FA214632C8239CF0MISOUT7MSGUSR9OIT_
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<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>PROTO-write-up for: draft-ietf-ccamp-lmp-behavior-negotiation-09.txt</=
div>
<div>Intended status: Proposed Standard</div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">(1) What type of RFC is be=
ing requested (BCP, Proposed Standard, Internet Standard, Informational, Ex=
perimental, or Historic)? Why is this the proper type of RFC? Is this type =
of RFC indicated in the title page
header?</div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">Proposed Standard. Yes.</d=
iv>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">(2) The IESG approval anno=
uncement includes a Document Announcement Write-Up. Please provide such a D=
ocument Announcement Write-Up. Recent examples can be found in the &quot;Ac=
tion&quot; announcements for approved documents.
The approval announcement contains the following sections: </div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;padding-left:15pt;">Technica=
l Summary:</div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;padding-left:30pt;">Relevant=
 content can frequently be found in the abstract and/or introduction of the=
 document. If not, this may be an indication that there are deficiencies in=
 the abstract or introduction.</div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;padding-left:30pt;">The Link=
 Management Protocol (LMP) is used to coordinate the properties, use, and f=
aults of data links in Generalized Multiprotocol Label Switching (GMPLS) ne=
tworks. This document defines an extension
to LMP to negotiate capabilities and indicate support for LMP extensions. T=
he defined extension is compatible with non-supporting implementations.</di=
v>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;padding-left:15pt;">Working =
Group Summary:</div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;padding-left:30pt;">Was ther=
e anything in WG process that is worth noting? For example, was there contr=
oversy about particular points or were there decisions where the consensus =
was particularly rough?</div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;padding-left:30pt;">No conce=
rns, the document had good support.</div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;padding-left:15pt;">Document=
 Quality:</div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;padding-left:30pt;">Are ther=
e existing implementations of the protocol? Have a significant number of ve=
ndors indicated their plan to implement the specification? Are there any re=
viewers that merit special mention
as having done a thorough review, e.g., one that resulted in important chan=
ges or a conclusion that the document had no substantive issues? If there w=
as a MIB Doctor, Media Type or other expert review, what was its course (br=
iefly)? In the case of a Media Type
review, on what date was the request posted?</div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;padding-left:30pt;">There ha=
ve been no public statements related to implementations, though significant=
 interest was expressed by the working group to progress this extension of =
the LMP protocol in support of future
extensions.</div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;padding-left:15pt;">Personne=
l:</div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;padding-left:30pt;">Who is t=
he Document Shepherd? Who is the Responsible Area Director?</div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;padding-left:30pt;">Deborah =
Brungard is the Document Shepherd. Adrian Farrel is the Responsible Area Di=
rector. </div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">(3) Briefly describe the r=
eview of this document that was performed by the Document Shepherd. If this=
 version of the document is not ready for publication, please explain why t=
he document is being forwarded to
the IESG.</div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">The document is ready for =
publication. </div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">(4) Does the document Shep=
herd have any concerns about the depth or breadth of the reviews that have =
been performed? </div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">No concerns.</div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">(5) Do portions of the doc=
ument need review from a particular or from broader perspective, e.g., secu=
rity, operational complexity, AAA, DNS, DHCP, XML, or internationalization?=
 If so, describe the review that took
place.</div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">No concerns.</div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">(6) Describe any specific =
concerns or issues that the Document Shepherd has with this document that t=
he Responsible Area Director and/or the IESG should be aware of? For exampl=
e, perhaps he or she is uncomfortable
with certain parts of the document, or has concerns whether there really is=
 a need for it. In any event, if the WG has discussed those issues and has =
indicated that it still wishes to advance the document, detail those concer=
ns here.</div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">No concerns. </div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">(7) Has each author confir=
med that any and all appropriate IPR disclosures required for full conforma=
nce with the provisions of BCP 78 and BCP 79 have already been filed. If no=
t, explain why?</div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">Yes.</div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">(8) Has an IPR disclosure =
been filed that references this document? If so, summarize any WG discussio=
n and conclusion regarding the IPR disclosures.</div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">No IPR disclosures filed.<=
/div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">(9) How solid is the WG co=
nsensus behind this document? Does it represent the strong concurrence of a=
 few individuals, with others being silent, or does the WG as a whole under=
stand and agree with it?</div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">The WG supports this docum=
ent. </div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">(10) Has anyone threatened=
 an appeal or otherwise indicated extreme discontent? If so, please summari=
se the areas of conflict in separate email messages to the Responsible Area=
 Director. (It should be in a separate
email because this questionnaire is publicly available.)</div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">None.</div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">(11) Identify any ID nits =
the Document Shepherd has found in this document. (See <a href=3D"http://ww=
w.ietf.org/tools/idnits/"><font color=3D"blue"><u>http://www.ietf.org/tools=
/idnits/</u></font></a> and the Internet-Drafts
Checklist). Boilerplate checks are not enough; this check needs to be thoro=
ugh.</div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">Nits passed.</div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">(12) Describe how the docu=
ment meets any required formal review criteria, such as the MIB Doctor, med=
ia type, and URI type reviews.</div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">No concerns.</div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">(13) Have all references w=
ithin this document been identified as either normative or informative?</di=
v>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">Yes. </div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">(14) Are there normative r=
eferences to documents that are not ready for advancement or are otherwise =
in an unclear state? If such normative references exist, what is the plan f=
or their completion? </div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">No.</div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">(15) Are there downward no=
rmative references references (see RFC 3967)? If so, list these downward re=
ferences to support the Area Director in the Last Call procedure. </div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">No.</div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">(16) Will publication of t=
his document change the status of any existing RFCs? Are those RFCs listed =
on the title page header, listed in the abstract, and discussed in the intr=
oduction? If the RFCs are not listed
in the Abstract and Introduction, explain why, and point to the part of the=
 document where the relationship of this document to the other RFCs is disc=
ussed. If this information is not in the document, explain why the WG consi=
ders it unnecessary.</div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">This document updates RFC =
4204, RFC 4207, RFC 4209 and RFC 5818 (as listed on the title page and abst=
ract).</div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">(17) Describe the Document=
 Shepherd's review of the IANA considerations section, especially with rega=
rd to its consistency with the body of the document. Confirm that all proto=
col extensions that the document makes
are associated with the appropriate reservations in IANA registries. Confir=
m that any referenced IANA registries have been clearly identified. Confirm=
 that newly created IANA registries include a detailed specification of the=
 initial contents for the registry,
that allocations procedures for future registrations are defined, and a rea=
sonable name for the new registry has been suggested (see RFC 5226).</div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">No concerns.</div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">(18) List any new IANA reg=
istries that require Expert Review for future allocations. Provide any publ=
ic guidance that the IESG would find useful in selecting the IANA Experts f=
or these new registries. </div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">No concerns.</div>
<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">(19) Describe reviews and =
automated checks performed by the Document Shepherd to validate sections of=
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<div style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">No concerns.</div>
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From lberger@labn.net  Sat Dec 22 13:13:07 2012
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Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 16:12:33 -0500
From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] poll on making	draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a WG document
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This message concludes the poll.  The cairs believe there is sufficient
(although not unanimous) support for making this document a working
group document.  Please keep in mind that this marks the formal *start*
of the WG's work on this topic.  We do expect there to be technical
evolution of this document based on WG feedback, including the feedback
provided at the last meetings.

Authors,

Please submit an unmodified version of the document as
draft-ietf-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ro-00 (e intentionally dropped.)

The chairs will approve publication only once the final IPR disclosure
is posted on the list (dirk.schroetter@nutsix.de has not been heard
from) and any resulting discussion concludes.

Thank you and happy holidays!

Lou (and Deborah)

On 12/7/2012 3:48 PM, Lou Berger wrote:
> All,
> 
> This is to start a two week poll on making
> draft-margaria-ccamp-lsp-attribute-ero-02 a ccamp working
> group document. Please send mail to the list indicating "yes/support"
> or "no/do not support".  If indicating no, please state your technical
> reservations with the document.
> 
> The poll ends Friday December 21.
> 
> Much thanks,
> Lou (and Deborah)
> 
> PS We're still waiting on one IPR statement.
> _______________________________________________
> CCAMP mailing list
> CCAMP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
> 
> 
> 
> 

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From: Iftekhar Hussain <IHussain@infinera.com>
To: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>, CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Thanks for a very comprehensive summary.

Couple of comments.
a) "6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208 ..." Do you =
mean EN instead of CN? It appears to be a typo unless I am mistaken.
b) " 7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 .."  Do you mea=
n CN instead of EN?
c) "does not scale because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment =
PWs have the same issue, ..."  So does this mean this "intermediate" node n=
eeds to be redundant?

BR,
Iftekhar
-----Original Message-----
From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 3:17 AM
To: CCAMP
Subject: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context

Dear CCAMPers,

In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the Overlay model framewo=
rk and related works took place. Some discussions led to some sort of agree=
met among a small group of people, some others to a set a viable options, s=
ome others to totally open issues. I tried to summarize the output of such =
discussions below so to progress the discussions into a single thread on th=
e WG ML.

Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a well shaped and c=
onclusive idea to the WG but rather to provide the basis for starting a dis=
cussion from a barely shaped idea (step 1) instead of starting it from scra=
tch (step 0).

In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a proposal of the overl=
ay scenario.

Thanks,
Daniele

+ Disclaimer:
 1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work can be extente=
d to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.

+ Terminology:

 1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between two virtual or=
 real network elements in a client layer network  that is maintained/contro=
lled in and by the server domain control plane (and as such cannot transpor=
t any traffic/data and protected from being de-provisioned) and which can b=
e instantiated in the data plane (and then can carry/transport/forward traf=
fic/data) preserving previously advertised attributes such as fate sharing =
information.
 2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or more server netw=
ork  domain nodes that are collectively represented to the clients as a sin=
gle node that exists in the client layer network and is capable of terminat=
ing of access, inter-domain and virtual links.
 3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one or more virtua=
l or real server network domain nodes that exist in the client layer networ=
k and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual links.
 4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies provided by each=
 of server network domains, access and inter-domain links.
 5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that link. It can su=
pport any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
 6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208 teminology  but=
 (i) receiving virtual topology from the core  network and requesting the s=
et up of one of them or (ii) requesting the computation and establishment o=
f a path accordingly to gien constraints in the core network and receiving =
the parameters characterizing such path. (ii) =3D=3D UNI.
 7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but able to deal wi=
th (i) and (ii) above.
 8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for signaling and r=
outing messages exchange between Overlay and Core network. Routing informat=
ion consists on virtual topology advertisement. When there is no routing ad=
jacency across the interface it is equivalent to the GMPLS UNI defined in 4=
208. Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information related to =
path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected SRLG, path delay etc, eith=
er passed from OE to OC via signaling after the LSP establishment in the co=
re network or from OC to OE to be used as path computation constraints, fal=
l under the definition of signaling info and not routing info).
 9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the links between d=
ifferent core networks in the overlay model environment, i.e. Between borde=
r OEs. Same features of the ONI apply to this interface. Could it be an E-N=
NI? A ONI? A new name is needed?

+ Statements
 1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build an overlay topol=
ogy for the client network domains  2. The overlay topology is comprised of=
:
    a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the server network doma=
ins). They can be PSC or LSC.
    b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server network domains)
    c) virtual topology provided by the server network domains. Virtual Lin=
ks + Virtual Nodes (TBD) + Connectivity Matrix (with a set of parameters e.=
g. SRLG, optical impairments, delay etc for each entry) describing connecti=
vity between access links and virtual links.
 3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy  of overlay topolo=
gies with overlay/underlay relationships  4. In the context of overlay mode=
l multi-layering and inter-layer relationships are peripheral at best, it i=
s all about horizontal network integration  5. The overlay model assumes on=
e instance for the client network and a separate instance for the server ne=
twork and in the ONI case the server network also surreptitiously participa=
tes in the client network by injecting virtual topology information into it=
.
 6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over the ONI (it fal=
ls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency is in place between OC and OE=
).

+ Open issues/questions

 1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about PCE and PCEP into=
 the overlay framework context?
 2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
 3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?

+ Appendix:
Some notes on the Virtual Node:
1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale because of N**2 pro=
blem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs have the same issue, that's why pe=
ople invented multi-segment PWs
2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is by having inter=
mediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the middle of the virtual to=
pology
3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain switches, bec=
ause, generally speaking:
  a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
  b)Real switches are named from different naming space
  c)real switches individually may not have sufficient resources to termina=
te virtual links (while a group of real switches collectively will have)
  d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual node have bette=
r scalability qualities
4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real node, you need to k=
eep in mind that real server domain switches are, generally speaking, block=
ing switches and as such must expose their connectivity matrices
5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could potentially g=
o through a real server domain switch, the latter's connectivity matrix mus=
t expose "internal" SRLGs, so that the two services traversing the switch w=
ill not simultaneously fail if a single internal element shared by the serv=
ices fails
6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be addressed when you ar=
e traffic engineering topologies with blocking switches, you will understan=
d that there is absolutely no difference between a virtual node and real bl=
ocking real node.
7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected to server netwo=
rk domain must be upgraded so that they could understand the connectivity m=
atrices advertised by the border nodes describing connectivity constraints =
between access links and virtual links they terminate.



=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
DANIELE CECCARELLI
System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro

Via E.Melen, 77
Genova, Italy
Phone +390106002512
Mobile +393346725750
daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com<mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
www.ericsson.com<http://www.ericsson.com>

This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive email on the b=
asis of the term set out at www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer<http://www.er=
icsson.com/email_disclaimer>



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<font face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;">
<div>Thanks for a very comprehensive summary. </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Couple of comments.</div>
<div>a) &quot;6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208 ..=
.&quot; Do you mean EN instead of CN? It appears to be a typo unless I am m=
istaken.</div>
<div>b) &quot; 7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 ..&qu=
ot;&nbsp; Do you mean CN instead of EN?</div>
<div>c) &quot;does not scale because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and singl=
e-segment PWs have the same issue, &#8230;&quot;&nbsp; So does this mean th=
is &quot;intermediate&quot; node needs to be redundant?</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>BR,</div>
<div>Iftekhar</div>
<div>-----Original Message-----<br>

From: Daniele Ceccarelli [<a href=3D"mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com=
">mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com</a>]
<br>

Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 3:17 AM<br>

To: CCAMP<br>

Subject: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Dear CCAMPers,</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the Overlay model fr=
amework and related works took place. Some discussions led to some sort of =
agreemet among a small group of people, some others to a set a viable optio=
ns, some others to totally open
issues. I tried to summarize the output of such discussions below so to pro=
gress the discussions into a single thread on the WG ML.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a well shaped =
and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to provide the basis for starting =
a discussion from a barely shaped idea (step 1) instead of starting it from=
 scratch (step 0).</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a proposal of the =
overlay scenario.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div>Daniele</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&#43; Disclaimer:</div>
<div> 1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work can be ex=
tented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&#43; Terminology:</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div> 1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between two virtu=
al or real network elements in a client layer network&nbsp; that is maintai=
ned/controlled in and by the server domain control plane (and as such canno=
t transport any traffic/data and protected
from being de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the data plane =
(and then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving previously a=
dvertised attributes such as fate sharing information.</div>
<div> 2.&nbsp; Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or more s=
erver network&nbsp; domain nodes that are collectively represented to the c=
lients as a single node that exists in the client layer network and is capa=
ble of terminating of access, inter-domain
and virtual links.</div>
<div> 3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one or more v=
irtual or real server network domain nodes that exist in the client layer n=
etwork and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual links.</div>
<div> 4. Overlay topology:&nbsp; is a superset of virtual topologies provid=
ed by each of server network domains, access and inter-domain links.</div>
<div> 5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that link. It c=
an support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.</div>
<div> 6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208 teminology=
&nbsp; but (i) receiving virtual topology from the core&nbsp; network and r=
equesting the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting the computation and =
establishment of a path accordingly to gien
constraints in the core network and receiving the parameters characterizing=
 such path. (ii) =3D=3D UNI.</div>
<div> 7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but able to de=
al with (i) and (ii) above.</div>
<div> 8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for signaling =
and routing messages exchange between Overlay and Core network. Routing inf=
ormation consists on virtual topology advertisement. When there is no routi=
ng adjacency across the interface
it is equivalent to the GMPLS UNI defined in 4208. Signaling messages are c=
ompliant with RFC4208. Information related to path carachteristics, e.g. TE=
-metrics, collected SRLG, path delay etc, either passed from OE to OC via s=
ignaling after the LSP establishment
in the core network or from OC to OE to be used as path computation constra=
ints, fall under the definition of signaling info and not routing info).</d=
iv>
<div> 9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the links betw=
een different core networks in the overlay model environment, i.e. Between =
border OEs. Same features of the ONI apply to this interface. Could it be a=
n E-NNI? A ONI? A new name is needed?</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&#43; Statements</div>
<div> 1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build an overlay =
topology for the client network domains&nbsp; 2. The overlay topology is co=
mprised of:</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the=
 server network domains). They can be PSC or LSC.</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server=
 network domains)&nbsp;&nbsp; </div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; c) virtual topology provided by the server network =
domains. Virtual Links &#43; Virtual Nodes (TBD) &#43; Connectivity Matrix =
(with a set of parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments, delay etc for eac=
h entry) describing connectivity between access links and
virtual links.</div>
<div> 3. In the context of overlay model we manage&nbsp; hierarchy&nbsp; of=
 overlay topologies with overlay/underlay relationships&nbsp; 4. In the con=
text of overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships are peri=
pheral at best, it is all about horizontal network
integration&nbsp; 5. The overlay model assumes one instance for the client =
network and a separate instance for the server network and in the ONI case =
the server network also surreptitiously participates in the client network =
by injecting virtual topology information
into it.</div>
<div> 6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over the ONI (i=
t falls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency is in place between OC a=
nd OE).</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&#43; Open issues/questions</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div> 1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about PCE and PCEP=
 into the overlay framework context?</div>
<div> 2. BGP-LS needs to be considered</div>
<div> 3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&#43; Appendix:</div>
<div>Some notes on the Virtual Node:</div>
<div>1.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does=
 not scale because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs have=
 the same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs</div>
<div>2.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The only way to avoid full-mesh of Vi=
rtual Links is by having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links i=
n the middle of the virtual topology</div>
<div>3.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; These intermediate nodes cannot be re=
al server domain switches, because, generally speaking:</div>
<div>&nbsp; a)Real switches belong to different layer network;</div>
<div>&nbsp; b)Real switches are named from different naming space</div>
<div>&nbsp; c)real switches individually may not have sufficient resources =
to terminate virtual links (while a group of real switches collectively wil=
l have)</div>
<div>&nbsp; d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual node =
have better scalability qualities</div>
<div>4.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Even if you map a virtual node on a s=
ingle real node, you need to keep in mind that real server domain switches =
are, generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must expose their co=
nnectivity matrices</div>
<div>5.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint =
paths that could potentially go through a real server domain switch, the la=
tter's connectivity matrix must expose &quot;internal&quot; SRLGs, so that =
the two services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail
if a single internal element shared by the services fails</div>
<div>6.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If you walk through all cases that ne=
ed to be addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blockin=
g switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no difference betw=
een a virtual node and real blocking real node.</div>
<div>7.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Even in case of pure VL model, client=
 NEs connected to server network domain must be upgraded so that they could=
 understand the connectivity matrices advertised by the border nodes descri=
bing connectivity constraints between access links and virtual
links they terminate.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</div>
<div>DANIELE CECCARELLI</div>
<div>System &amp; Technology - PDU Optical &amp; Metro </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Via E.Melen, 77</div>
<div>Genova, Italy</div>
<div>Phone &#43;390106002512</div>
<div>Mobile &#43;393346725750</div>
<div><a href=3D"mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com">daniele.ceccarelli@=
ericsson.com</a></div>
<div><a href=3D"http://www.ericsson.com">www.ericsson.com</a>&nbsp; </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive email on =
the basis of the term set out at <a href=3D"http://www.ericsson.com/email_d=
isclaimer">www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer</a>&nbsp; </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</span></font>
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From: Iftekhar Hussain <IHussain@infinera.com>
To: Gert Grammel <ggrammel@juniper.net>, Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>, CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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For C " scales best but connectivity ...", by connectivity do you mean OEs =
interconnectivity?=20

BR,
Iftekhar
-----Original Message-----
From: Gert Grammel [mailto:ggrammel@juniper.net]=20
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 6:34 AM
To: Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context

Honestly,

If there are three ways of doing it, I first would like to define 3 unambig=
uous terms to name them.
After that we can decide what makes most sense.
A) doesn't look scalable
B) is better but still creates tons of links
C) scales best but connectivity needs to be taken into account.

If we name A "virtual client link" VCL, then B could be a "virtual attachme=
nt link" VAL and C a "virtual topological link" VTL.

Gert



________________________________________
From: Daniele Ceccarelli
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 3:13:14 PM
To: Gert Grammel; CCAMP
Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context

Hi Gert,

Excellent catch. I totally missed it.

Then we have two options for Virtual links definition...but thinking a litt=
le bit more of it, there are actually 3 of them.

OC1                               OC2
  \    +---+IF2       IF3+---+    /
   \IF1|OE1|-------------|OE2|IF4/
       +---+             +---+

A) Virtual link is from OC1 to OC2
B) Virtual link is from IF1 to IF4
C) Virtual link is from IF2 to IF3

Defining the virtual link as from IF2 to IF3 would need also to include the=
 connectivity matrices of OE1 and OE2, while from IF1 to IF4 would remove t=
he need for them as the information related to the connectivity matrix is a=
lready implied into the virtual link. Am i missing something?

What would you suggest as the more reasonable definition?

Cheers,
Daniele


>-----Original Message-----
>From: Gert Grammel [mailto:ggrammel@juniper.net]
>Sent: luned=EC 17 dicembre 2012 14.27
>To: Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP
>Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>Daniele,
>
>Thank you for summarizing the current state of discussion. To move=20
>forward and to encourage comments, let me point to some of the issues=20
>that are debated:
>
>1) Virtual Link: in the terminology statement a virtual link seems to=20
>connect two client elements. However later on the 3) virtual topology=20
>is composed of access links and virtual links. Hence. Virtual links=20
>connect server nodes, not client nodes. By doing so, segments (AL and=20
>VL) are created.
>2) The scalability consideration in the appendix for VL is based on=20
>terminology 1) rather than on virtual topology 3).
>This way it doesn't describe then the  scalability of a virtual=20
>topology (which doesn't necessitate a full mesh) but rather that of a=20
>virtual node (which implies a full connectivity matrix).
>
>To sum up:
>1) we have to come up with a crisp definition of a VL in a virtual=20
>topology that is different from a terminology 1) VL.
>Here is a gap
>2) A Model based on a vitual node or 'terminology 1) links'
>create n**2 problems on client side and does not scale.
>3) 'VNT'-virtual-links 3) and access links are supposed to address the=20
>scaling problem. We need to clean up our terminology. Otherwise we end=20
>up associating limitations of terminology 1) links with VNT-links that=20
>address those limitations.
>
>Now looking at the appendix it sadly reflects the terminology confusion=20
>and jumps to assessment and conclusions. That's unfortunate:
>
>The first line says:
>Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly,
>--> is it now about virtual nodes or virtual links or VNT links?
>2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is by
>having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the middle=20
>of the virtual topology
>--> that's why access links are so useful. They end at server nodes=20
>--> which are connected via virtual links
>3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain
>switches, because, generally speaking:
>--> in case of VNT-VLs no intermediate nodes are necessarily required
>4.  --> No need to comment, this way doesn't scale anyway.
>5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could
>potentially go through a real server domain switch, the latter's=20
>connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so that the two=20
>services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail if a single=20
>internal element shared by the services fails
>--> who is 'you' that computes? A client selects among VNT
>virtual links based on exposed SRLGs, VLs are computed by the server=20
>with full knowledge of constraints. So what does an 'internal' SRLG=20
>mean to a server path computation?
>6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be
>addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking=20
>switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no difference=20
>between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
>--> I suggest to model a complete network of say 5 nodes in a
>single VN and compare it with the model of a single real node.
>
>--> The assessments made have used a terminology definition
>that doesn't really capture the case made for VNT-VLs.
>That's why I would have had appreciated to split definitions and work=20
>items agreed among a group from individual assessments in separate=20
>emails.
>Nevertheless I consider the first part of your email (all except the=20
>appendix) as a good starting point for further clarification.
>
>Gert
>________________________________________
>From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Daniele Ceccarelli
>Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 12:17:08 PM
>To: CCAMP
>Subject: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>Dear CCAMPers,
>
>In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the Overlay model=20
>framework and related works took place. Some discussions led to some=20
>sort of agreemet among a small group of people, some others to a set a=20
>viable options, some others to totally open issues. I tried to=20
>summarize the output of such discussions below so to progress the=20
>discussions into a single thread on the WG ML.
>
>Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a well shaped=20
>and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to provide the basis for=20
>starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea (step 1) instead of=20
>starting it from scratch (step 0).
>
>In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a proposal of the=20
>overlay scenario.
>
>Thanks,
>Daniele
>
>+ Disclaimer:
> 1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work can be=20
>extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.
>
>+ Terminology:
>
> 1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between two=20
>virtual or real network elements in a client layer network  that is=20
>maintained/controlled in and by the server domain control plane (and as=20
>such cannot transport any traffic/data and protected from being=20
>de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the data plane (and=20
>then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving previously=20
>advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.
> 2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or more server=20
>network  domain nodes that are collectively represented to the clients=20
>as a single node that exists in the client layer network and is capable=20
>of terminating of access, inter-domain and virtual links.
> 3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one or more=20
>virtual or real server network domain nodes that exist in the client=20
>layer network and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual links.
> 4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies provided by=20
>each of server network domains, access and inter-domain links.
> 5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that link. It=20
>can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
> 6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208 teminology =20
>but (i) receiving virtual topology from the core network and requesting=20
>the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting the computation and=20
>establishment of a path accordingly to gien constraints in the core=20
>network and receiving the parameters characterizing such path. (ii) =3D=3D=
=20
>UNI.
> 7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but able to=20
>deal with (i) and (ii) above.
> 8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for signaling=20
>and routing messages exchange between Overlay and Core network. Routing=20
>information consists on virtual topology advertisement. When there is=20
>no routing adjacency across the interface it is equivalent to the GMPLS=20
>UNI defined in 4208.
>Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information related to=20
>path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected SRLG, path delay etc,=20
>either passed from OE to OC via signaling after the LSP establishment=20
>in the core network or from OC to OE to be used as path computation=20
>constraints, fall under the definition of signaling info and not=20
>routing info).
> 9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the links=20
>between different core networks in the overlay model environment, i.e.=20
>Between border OEs. Same features of the ONI apply to this interface.=20
>Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name is needed?
>
>+ Statements
> 1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build an overlay=20
>topology for the client network domains  2. The overlay topology is=20
>comprised of:
>    a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the server network=20
>domains). They can be PSC or LSC.
>    b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server network=20
>domains)
>    c) virtual topology provided by the server network domains. Virtual=20
>Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) + Connectivity Matrix (with a set of=20
>parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments, delay etc for each entry)=20
>describing connectivity between access links and virtual links.
> 3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy  of overlay=20
>topologies with overlay/underlay relationships  4. In the context of=20
>overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships are=20
>peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network integration  5.=20
>The overlay model assumes one instance for the client network and a=20
>separate instance for the server network and in the ONI case the server=20
>network also surreptitiously participates in the client network by=20
>injecting virtual topology information into it.
> 6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over the ONI (it=20
>falls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency is in place between OC=20
>and OE).
>
>+ Open issues/questions
>
> 1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about PCE and PCEP=20
>into the overlay framework context?
> 2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
> 3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?
>
>+ Appendix:
>Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale
>because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs have the=20
>same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs
>2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is by
>having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the middle=20
>of the virtual topology
>3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain
>switches, because, generally speaking:
>  a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
>  b)Real switches are named from different naming space
>  c)real switches individually may not have sufficient resources to=20
>terminate virtual links (while a group of real switches collectively=20
>will have)
>  d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual node have=20
>better scalability qualities
>4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real node,
>you need to keep in mind that real server domain switches are,=20
>generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must expose their=20
>connectivity matrices
>5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could
>potentially go through a real server domain switch, the latter's=20
>connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so that the two=20
>services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail if a single=20
>internal element shared by the services fails
>6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be
>addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking=20
>switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no difference=20
>between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
>7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected to
>server network domain must be upgraded so that they could understand=20
>the connectivity matrices advertised by the border nodes describing=20
>connectivity constraints between access links and virtual links they=20
>terminate.
>
>
>
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>DANIELE CECCARELLI
>System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro
>
>Via E.Melen, 77
>Genova, Italy
>Phone +390106002512
>Mobile +393346725750
>daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>www.ericsson.com
>
>This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive email on=20
>the basis of the term set out at www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer
>
>
>



From IHussain@infinera.com  Mon Dec 24 16:08:59 2012
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From: Iftekhar Hussain <IHussain@infinera.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Agree with the comments about reusing some of the L3VPN like terminology. U=
nless the existing terminology PE/CE does not suffice, reusing the existing=
 terminology will be less confusing.

BR,
Iftekhar
-----Original Message-----
From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]=20
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 7:09 AM
To: Daniele Ceccarelli
Cc: CCAMP
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context

Daniele,
	see below.


On 12/19/2012 5:56 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
> Hi Lou,
>=20
> Plese find replies in line.
>=20
> BR
> Daniele
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
>> Sent: luned=EC 17 dicembre 2012 20.45
>> To: Daniele Ceccarelli
>> Cc: CCAMP
>> Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>>
>>
>> Daniele,
>> 	Thanks for getting this on-list discussion going.  I have some=20
>> comments and questions:
>>
>> - So what's a "client layer network" in this context?  Perhaps you=20
>> mean OC or "(overlay) customer layer"?
>=20
> Yes. The terms client layer and server layer are reminescences to be corr=
ected.
>=20
>>
>> - So what's a "server layer network" in this context?  Perhaps you=20
>> mean OE or "(overlay) provider layer"?
>=20
> Again correct
>=20
>>
>> - For OC, I'd thing referring back to a CE in the VPN context, and=20
>> likewise to a PE for an OE, is helpful context.
>=20
> In the case of the interface we generally define the ONI as an overlay=20
> interface that in a particular case is called UNI.

I have no idea what this means.  I suspect it relates to comments below, so=
 will discuss there.

> I would
> apply the same method: those nodes are called Overlay Customer and=20
> Overlay Edge and in the particular case of VPNs they are the CE and PE=20
> respectively. What about that?
>=20

How about:

An OC is analogous to an L3VPN CE, and an OE is analogous to an L3VPN PE (w=
ith a provider based VPN).

>>
>> - As you mention in the Appendix, (from the OC perspective) there is=20
>> no difference between a virtual and real node (and presumably link as=20
>> well).  Given this and your comment in 8, that the ONI can take the=20
>> form of a UNI or include both signaling and routing (i.e., a=20
>> peer/I-NNI or
>> E-NNI) what value is there in introducing the ONI term?  Said another=20
>> way, there's no specific term for the interface between a CE and PE=20
>> in L3VPNs, so why do we need to introduce one in this context?
>=20
> We gave a name to the UNI, why don't giving to the ONI?

Because redundant/unnecessary terminology only obfuscates.

Why not customer interface/link? This has been sufficient for L3VPNs.

>=20
>>
>> I think this same comment probably holds for the O-NNI (e.g., what's=20
>> the name of the interface between providers which support L3VPN=20
>> handoffs?)...
>=20
> I would suggest giving a name to that interface also in order to distingu=
ish between an "internal" and an "external" link when multiple overlay prov=
ider network domains are present.
>=20

How about inter-provider interface/link? Again, this has been sufficient fo=
r L3VPNs.

Lou

>>
>> Much thanks,
>> Lou
>>
>> On 12/17/2012 6:17 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote:
>>> Dear CCAMPers,
>>>
>>> In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the
>> Overlay model framework and related works took place. Some=20
>> discussions led to some sort of agreemet among a small group of=20
>> people, some others to a set a viable options, some others to totally=20
>> open issues. I tried to summarize the output of such discussions=20
>> below so to progress the discussions into a single thread on the WG=20
>> ML.
>>>
>>> Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a
>> well shaped and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to provide the=20
>> basis for starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea (step 1)=20
>> instead of starting it from scratch (step 0).
>>>
>>> In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a
>> proposal of the overlay scenario.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Daniele
>>>
>>> + Disclaimer:
>>>  1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work
>> can be extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.
>>>
>>> + Terminology:
>>>
>>>  1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between
>> two virtual or real network elements in a client layer network that=20
>> is maintained/controlled in and by the server domain control plane=20
>> (and as such cannot transport any traffic/data and protected from=20
>> being de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the data plane=20
>> (and then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving=20
>> previously advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.
>>>  2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or
>> more server network  domain nodes that are collectively represented=20
>> to the clients as a single node that exists in the client layer=20
>> network and is capable of terminating of access, inter-domain and=20
>> virtual links.
>>>  3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one
>> or more virtual or real server network domain nodes that exist in the=20
>> client layer network and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual=20
>> links.
>>>  4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies
>> provided by each of server network domains, access and inter-domain=20
>> links.
>>>  5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that
>> link. It can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
>>>  6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208
>> teminology  but (i) receiving virtual topology from the core network=20
>> and requesting the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting the=20
>> computation and establishment of a path accordingly to gien=20
>> constraints in the core network and receiving the parameters=20
>> characterizing such path. (ii) =3D=3D UNI.
>>>  7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but
>> able to deal with (i) and (ii) above.
>>>  8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for
>> signaling and routing messages exchange between Overlay and  Core=20
>>network. Routing information consists on virtual topology =20
>>advertisement. When there is no routing adjacency across the =20
>>interface it is equivalent to the GMPLS UNI defined in 4208.
>> Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information  related=20
>>to path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected  SRLG, path delay=20
>>etc, either passed from OE to OC via  signaling after the LSP=20
>>establishment in the core network or from OC to OE to be used as path=20
>>computation constraints, fall  under the definition of signaling info=20
>>and not routing info).
>>>  9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the
>> links between different core networks in the overlay model=20
>> environment, i.e. Between border OEs. Same features of the ONI apply=20
>> to this interface. Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name is needed?
>>>
>>> + Statements
>>>  1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build
>> an overlay
>>> topology for the client network domains  2. The overlay
>> topology is comprised of:
>>>     a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the
>> server network domains). They can be PSC or LSC.
>>>     b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server
>> network domains)  =20
>>>     c) virtual topology provided by the server network
>> domains. Virtual Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) + Connectivity Matrix=20
>> (with a set of parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments, delay etc=20
>> for each entry) describing connectivity between access links and=20
>> virtual links.
>>>  3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy  of overlay=20
>>> topologies with overlay/underlay relationships  4. In the context of=20
>>> overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships
>> are peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network=20
>> integration  5. The overlay model assumes one instance for the client=20
>> network and a separate instance for the server network and in the ONI=20
>> case the server network also surreptitiously participates in the=20
>> client network by injecting virtual topology information into it.
>>>  6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over
>> the ONI (it falls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency is in=20
>> place between OC and OE).
>>>
>>> + Open issues/questions
>>> =20
>>>  1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about
>> PCE and PCEP into the overlay framework context?
>>>  2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
>>>  3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?
>>>
>>> + Appendix:
>>> Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>>> 1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale=20
>> because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs have the=20
>> same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs
>>> 2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is=20
>> by having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the=20
>> middle of the virtual topology
>>> 3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server=20
>> domain switches, because, generally speaking:
>>>   a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
>>>   b)Real switches are named from different naming space
>>>   c)real switches individually may not have sufficient
>> resources to terminate virtual links (while a group of real switches=20
>> collectively will have)
>>>   d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual
>> node have better scalability qualities
>>> 4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real=20
>> node, you need to keep in mind that real server domain switches are,=20
>> generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must expose their=20
>> connectivity matrices
>>> 5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that=20
>> could potentially go through a real server domain switch, the=20
>> latter's connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so that=20
>> the two services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail=20
>> if a single internal element shared by the services fails
>>> 6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be=20
>> addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking=20
>> switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no difference=20
>> between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
>>> 7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected=20
>> to server network domain must be upgraded so that they could=20
>> understand the connectivity matrices advertised by the border nodes=20
>> describing connectivity constraints between access links and virtual=20
>> links they terminate.
>>>
>>>
>>> =20
>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>> DANIELE CECCARELLI
>>> System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro
>>>
>>> Via E.Melen, 77
>>> Genova, Italy
>>> Phone +390106002512
>>> Mobile +393346725750
>>> daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>>> www.ericsson.com
>>>
>>> This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive
>> email on
>>> the basis of the term set out at www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CCAMP mailing list
>>> CCAMP@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp
>>>
>>
>=20
>=20
>=20


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From: Fatai Zhang <zhangfatai@huawei.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
Thread-Topic: re: [CCAMP] WG Last Call comments on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709v3-04
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi Lou, <o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Please see in-line below.<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">A new version will be issued=
 after all open issues are resolved.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Best Regards<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Fatai<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">-----Original Message-----<b=
r>
From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net] <br>
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 10:12 PM<br>
To: Fatai Zhang<br>
Cc: CCAMP; draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709v3@tools.ietf.org<br>
Subject: Re: </span><span style=3D"font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=B4=F0=B8=B4</=
span><span lang=3D"EN-US">: [CCAMP] WG Last Call comments on draft-ietf-cca=
mp-gmpls-signaling-g709v3-04<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Fatai/Authors,<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Thank you for the mail, and sorry about my delayed res=
ponse.&nbsp; BTW<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">please feel free to continue=
 discussing the remaining open issues on the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">list and reaching closure on=
 the list (on specific text/resolutions)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">prior to publishing the next=
 rev.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Please see below for inline =
responses.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On 12/7/2012 4:53 AM, Fatai =
Zhang wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; Hi Lou,<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; Please see how the LC c=
omments addressed below.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; Best Regards<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; Fatai<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; -----</span><span style=
=3D"font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US">-----<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; </span><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">: cc=
amp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ccamp-bounces@ietf.org]
</span><span style=3D"font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=B4=FA=B1=ED</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US"> Lou Berger<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; </span><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4</span><span lang=3D"EN-US=
">: 2012</span><span style=3D"font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=C4=EA</span><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">10</span><span style=3D"font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=D4=C2</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US">22</span><span style=3D"font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=
=C8=D5</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">
 10:01<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; </span><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">: CC=
AMP; draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709v3@tools.ietf.org<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; </span><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=D6=F7=CC=E2</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">: [CCAMP] =
WG Last Call comments on draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709v3-04<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; Authors,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I ha=
ve the following LC comments:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; General comments:<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; - This document also ne=
eds some addition work on conformance language.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; I'll try to point out c=
ases in the detailed comments below.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; [Fatai] OK. Checked and=
 refined based on your detailed comments.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I think this rev is an impro=
vement, but there's still more work needed.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I have made some specific co=
mments/suggestions below.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; - Section 5 essentially=
 defines a new set of traffic parameters.&nbsp; Given<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; the changes, why not as=
k for a new C-TYPE and not worry about [RFC4328]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; compatibility/descripti=
on?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; [Fatai] Accepted to hav=
e a new C-TYPE and updated the text accordingly.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Okay.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; Detailed editorial and =
technical comments:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; - Please verify that ab=
breviations are defined before being used .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; There are a number of t=
hese.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; [Fatai] Went through an=
d updated. <o:p>
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">thanks.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; - Please use a consiste=
nt decimal representation (sometimes commas are<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; used other times period=
s)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; [Fatai] OK. Commas are =
used.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">great, although a quick skim=
 finds:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">s/1,301.683.217/1,301,683.21=
7<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><b><i><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; - the references [G709-=
v1] and [G709-v3] each actually refer to multiple<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; documents, each documen=
ted needs to have it's own (correct) reference,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; i.g., [G709-v1] and [G7=
09-v1a1]. The document text will need to be<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; revisited to ensure the=
 proper reference is made.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; [Fatai] Accepted and us=
ed the same approach for framework draft.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">great<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; -<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; http://tools.ietf.org/i=
dnits?url=3Dhttp://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709v=
3-04.txt<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; shows there are unresol=
ved nits that need to resolved .&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">http://tools.ietf.org/idnits=
?url=3Dhttp://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-ccamp-gmpls-signaling-g709v3-05.=
txt<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">still shows a warning, notab=
ly:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (Us=
ing the creation date from RFC4328, updated by this document, for<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; RFC=
5378 checks: 2005-01-17)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp; -- The document seems=
 to lack a disclaimer for pre-RFC5378 work, but may<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; hav=
e content which was first submitted before 10 November 2008.&nbsp; If you<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; hav=
e contacted all the original authors and they are all willing to grant<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the=
 BCP78 rights to the IETF Trust, then this is fine, and you can ignore<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; thi=
s comment.&nbsp; If not, you may need to add the pre-RFC5378 disclaimer.<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (Se=
e the Legal Provisions document at http://trustee.ietf.org/license-info for=
 more information.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"punctuation-wrap:simple;text-autospace:none=
"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060">[Fatai] Will update =A1=B0Co=
pyright Notice=A1=B1 section.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#00=
2060"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; I'm using line<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; numbers from this url i=
n my subsequent comments.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">[...]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; - Section 3.&nbsp; Perh=
aps combine with section 1.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; [Fatai] Accepted and re=
fined.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I don't see where this sugge=
stion was followed, but that's okay, it was<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">just a suggestion.<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"punctuation-wrap:simple;text-autospace:none=
"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060">[Fatai] OK.<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">[...]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; - Section 5: assuming t=
his is now a new c-type need text for that, as<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; well as to formally def=
ined the fields/field sizes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; [Fatai] Accepted to hav=
e a new C-TYPE and updated the text accordingly.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Formal field definitions are=
 missing and need to be added.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"punctuation-wrap:simple;text-autospace:none=
"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060">[Fatai] The format is the sa=
me as RFC4328. Did you mean that it needs =A1=B0Length=A1=B1, =A1=B0Class-N=
um=A1=B1 and =A1=B0C-Type=A1=B1? If yes, I will add them. If you mean
 that it needs text to define all the fields, I think the text is already t=
here (then this comment may be related to your other comments below).
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Also the draft says:<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp; Note that the e=
rror process on the traffic parameters MUST follow the<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp; rules defined i=
n Section 6 of [RFC4328].<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Given the different fields, =
shouldn't any OTN-TDM related traffic parameter processing now be defined i=
n this document?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060">[Fat=
ai] I just wanted to avoid the overlapped text (almost the same text as RFC=
4328). Will accept your suggestion to expand the text as follows:<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060"><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"punctuation-wrap:simple"><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S" style=3D"color:#002060">There is no Adspec associated with the OTN-TDM S=
ENDER_TSPEC. Either the Adspec is omitted or an Int-serv Adspec with the De=
fault General Characterization Parameters
 and Guaranteed Service fragment is used, see [RFC2210].<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"punctuation-wrap:simple"><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S" style=3D"color:#002060">For a particular sender in a session, the conten=
ts of the FLOWSPEC object received in a Resv message SHOULD be identical to=
 the contents of the SENDER_TSPEC object
 received in the corresponding Path message. If the objects do not match, a=
 ResvErr message with a &quot;Traffic Control Error/Bad Flowspec value&quot=
; error SHOULD be generated.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"punctuation-wrap:simple"><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S" style=3D"color:#002060">Intermediate and egress nodes MUST verify that t=
he node itself, and the interfaces on which the LSP will be established, ca=
n support the requested Signal Type, NVC,
 Tolerance and Bit_Rate values. If the requested value(s) cannot be support=
ed, the receiver node MUST generate a PathErr message with a &quot;Traffic =
Control Error/Service unsupported&quot; indication (see [RFC2205]).<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060">In a=
ddition, if the MT field is received with a zero value, the node MUST gener=
ate a PathErr message with a &quot;Traffic Control Error/Bad Tspec value&qu=
ot; indication (see [RFC2205]).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">[...]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; - Lines 320-336,338-346=
 are essentially repeated in sections 5.1 and<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; 5.2, why not move this =
text into their respective sections?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; [Fatai] Accepted and re=
fined the text.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I don't see where this sugge=
stion was followed. For example:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">287&nbsp; In case of ODUflex=
(CBR), the Bit_Rate and Tolerance fields MUST be<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">288&nbsp; used together to r=
epresent the actual bandwidth of ODUflex, where:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">and<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">323&nbsp; In case of ODUflex=
(CBR), the information of Bit_Rate and Tolerance in<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">324&nbsp; the ODUflex traffi=
c parameters MUST be used to determine the total<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">325 number of tributary slot=
s N in the HO ODUk link to be reserved. Here:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060"><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060">[Fat=
ai] Sorry I should not say
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;co=
lor:#002060">=A1=B0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Accepted and refined the tex=
t.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"=
>=A1=B1</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060"> last time.</spa=
n><span lang=3D"EN-US">
<span style=3D"color:#002060">They are not repeated. here, the text just de=
scribes the meaning of the corresponding fields (as we always do), so the a=
bove text should be there irrespectively. Section 5.1 &amp; section 5.2 des=
cribe
</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&q=
uot;;color:#002060">=A1=B0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#00206=
0">how</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&qu=
ot;;color:#002060">=A1=B1</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060=
">
 with more detail information including formulation, Table information and =
example.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; - lines 445-468: Why no=
t just carry &quot;n&quot; directly?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; [Fatai] to make it cons=
istent with ODUflex(CBR).
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Given that the recent decisi=
on to have an OTN-TDM specific set of<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">traffic parameters, doesn't =
it now make sense to just carry N directly?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060">[Fat=
ai] No. </span>
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#00=
2060">=A1=B0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060">N</span><sp=
an lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#00206=
0">=A1=B1</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060"> cannot be use=
d for
 ODUflex(CBR) case. It is better to have consistent format and the same mea=
ning of one field for both ODUflex(CBR) and GFP. This is why we have sectio=
n 5.1 &amp;5.2 to describe the complex stuff.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">[...]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; - Line 576: &quot;Padde=
d bits&quot; seems off, how about &quot;Pad bits&quot; or &quot;Padding&quo=
t;,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Again, how about &quot;Pad b=
its&quot; or &quot;Padding&quot;?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoCommentText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060">[F=
atai] OK. Should use =A1=B0Pad bits=A1=B1 instead of =A1=B0Padding bits=A1=
=B1</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; also bits aren't repres=
ented in label format (line 494)., also &quot;behind&quot;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; --&gt; &quot;after&quot=
;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; [Fatai] Accepted and up=
dated.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">[...]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; - Lines 658-660.&nbsp; =
The normative language in 4328 isn't actually<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; presented in the sectio=
n titled &quot;label distribution procedures&quot; (or<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; &quot;rules&quot; as se=
ction 4.2 is actually titled), so this paragraph doesn't<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; make sense.&nbsp; I sug=
gest either (a) defining the full set of required<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; procedures in this docu=
ment, or (b) referring to the &quot;required<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; processing defined in [=
RFC4328]&quot; and other rfcs as appropriate.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; [Fatai] Accepted and up=
dated accordingly.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; - Lines 662-667: what a=
bout generating upstream, suggested, label set,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; etc.&nbsp; Perhaps you =
should rephrase much into more general rules.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; [Fatai] Accepted and up=
dated accordingly.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I think section 6.2 still ne=
eds a bit of work.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">So are there procedures that=
 an ingress must follow?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">For example:<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">- Setting of fields in the l=
abel request object, such as the OTN-TDM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Switching Type defined in [O=
TN-OSPF].<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">What about the egress, are t=
here any special procedures?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">The final three paragraphs o=
f the section introduce upstream behaviors<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">*after* you've described the=
 downstream behavior without specifics of<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">the new upstream behavior. A=
s a general rule and in this case in<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">particular, I really think i=
t would be better to cover procedures in the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">following order<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">- Ingress<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">- Generic upstream<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">- Generic downstream<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">- Egress<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Also, generic statements sho=
uld not use conformance language,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">particularly when more detai=
led rules/procedures, which include such<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">language, follow.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">If you'd like we can discuss=
/review details on the list once you have a<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">proposed revision. (I see a =
bunch of more minor comments on this<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">section, but don't think it =
makes sense to focus on these until the more<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">major comments are addressed=
.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060">[Fat=
ai] Will refine the text based on your suggestion. Do I need to copy so muc=
h text here for review?</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">[...]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; - Lines 682-685: Who is=
 this learning/identification accomplished?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; [Fatai] Accepted and up=
dated.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; - Lines 703-704: If thi=
s is the normative section defining requirement<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; processing, the procedu=
res need to be spelled out for all required cases.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; [Fatai] Accepted and up=
dated accordingly.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; - Lines 706-707: I thin=
k this needs to be rephrased to be clear what<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; behavior is required fo=
r a node to be conformant with this sentence.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; [Fatai] Accepted and re=
fined accordingly.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; - Lines 711-714: why &q=
uot;SHOULD&quot; vs &quot;MUST&quot;?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; [Fatai] Accepted and up=
dated.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I'll defer responses to the =
discussion on prior comment.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; - Line 712: By &quot;in=
tegrity of the label&quot; do you mean &quot;if the label is<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; acceptable&quot;?<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; [Fatai] Yes, and update=
d.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; - Line 725: By &quot;re=
served resource&quot; do you mean &quot;indicated resource&quot;?<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; [Fatai] Yes, and update=
d.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; - Line 726: Does &quot;=
do not match&quot; mean &quot;inconsistent&quot;?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; [Fatai] Yes, and update=
d.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">WRT lines 624-627, I think y=
ou still need additional specificity<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">differentiate upstream/downs=
tream required behavior. Perhaps something<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">along the lines of:<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; When an u=
pstream node receives a Resv message containing an<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; LABEL obj=
ect with an OTN-TDM label, the node MUST verify that<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the label=
 is acceptable. If the label is not acceptable, the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; node MUST=
 generate a ResvErr message with a &quot;Routing<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; problem/U=
nacceptable label value&quot; indication.&nbsp; Per [RFC3473],<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the gener=
ated ResvErr message MAY include an<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ACCEPTABL=
E_LABEL_SET object.&nbsp; With the exception of label<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; semantics=
, Downstream node processing a received ResvErr<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; messages =
and of ACCEPTABLE_LABEL_SET objects is not modified<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; by this d=
ocument.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Similarly=
, when a downstream node receives a Path message<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; containin=
g an UPSTREAM_LABEL object with an OTN-TDM label,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the node =
MUST verify that the label is acceptable. If the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; label is =
not acceptable, the node MUST generate a PathErr<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; message w=
ith a &quot;Routing problem/Unacceptable label value&quot;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; indicatio=
n.&nbsp; Per [RFC3473], the generated ResvErr message MAY<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; include a=
n ACCEPTABLE_LABEL_SET object.&nbsp; With the exception<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; of label =
semantics, Downstream node processing received<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PathErr m=
essages and of ACCEPTABLE_LABEL_SET objects is not<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; modified =
by this document.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; A receive=
d label SHALL be considered unacceptable when one of<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the follo=
wing cases occurs:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - The rec=
eived label doesn't conform with local policy.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060">[Fat=
ai] OK. Accept your proposed text.
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;...<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; - Line 730, Drop &quot;=
As&quot;.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; [Fatai] Accepted and up=
dated.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; - Section 6.4: Missing =
conformance language.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; [Fatai] Went through an=
d updated.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">New line 660:&nbsp;&nbsp; Th=
e procedures are similar to section 6 of [RFC6344].<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hereto,&nbsp; If this is the=
 normative section defining required processing,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">the procedures need to be sp=
elled out for all required cases or refer to<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">specific (and unmodified) pr=
ocedures to follow in a reference document.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">So either define the process=
ing or say procures defined in &lt;appropriate<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">reference&gt; are followed.<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060">[Fat=
ai] OK, I think it is better to say
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;co=
lor:#002060">=A1=B0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060">The =
procedures MUST follow Section 5 of [RFC6344].</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#002060">=A1=B1</span><sp=
an lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; - Lines 758-759: This r=
eads like an informative statement, but includes<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; conformance language.&n=
bsp; How does a node conform?&nbsp; I suggest rephrasing to<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; be clear.<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; [Fatai] Accepted and up=
dated.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I think this section should =
be revised to ensure that the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">responsibilities of each typ=
e of processing node (ingress, upstream,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">downstream, egress) is clear=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I guess, we'll have a thread=
 on this section too...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060">[Fat=
ai] Will refine the text based on your suggestion.</span><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">[...]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; - Section 9, should als=
o reference 4328 and cover delta in information<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; and added risks.<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; [Fatai] Accepted and up=
dated.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">We'll see if this is enough =
to keep the security reviewers happy...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; - Section 10: This sect=
ion needs some work.&nbsp; (I'm assuming your familiar<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; with rfc5226).<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; [Fatai] Accepted and up=
dated.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Better, but you should at le=
ast refer to the existing registries, which already includes G-PIDs (see<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">http://www.iana.org/assignme=
nts/gmpls-sig-parameters/gmpls-sig-parameters.xml)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; - Is it time to create =
a &quot;Signal Type&quot; registry?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; [Fatai] We are not sure=
, because no &quot;Signal Types&quot; have been registered in the existing =
RFCs (like RFC3473, RFC4328..).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I think including a request =
to establish such a registry in this<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">document would be useful.&nb=
sp; Is anyone up to proposing the requisite text?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060">[Fat=
ai] OK to register
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;co=
lor:#002060">=A1=B0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060">Sign=
al Type</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&q=
uot;;color:#002060">=A1=B1</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#00206=
0">.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060"><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:21.55pt;punctuation-wrap:simple=
"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;
<span style=3D"color:#002060">Value&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Signal Type&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ref=
erence<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:21.55pt;punctuation-wrap:simple=
"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp; -----&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; -----------&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;---------<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:21.55pt;punctuation-wrap:simple=
"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp; 0&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Not significant</span><span lang=3D"SV" style=
=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;[thi=
s document]</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060"><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:21.55pt;punctuation-wrap:simple=
"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp; &nbsp;1&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ODU1 (i.e., 2.5 Gbps)</span><span lang=3D"SV" =
style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [this document]</span><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:21.55pt;punctuation-wrap:simple=
"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp; 2&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ODU2 (i.e., 10 Gbps)</span><span lang=3D"SV" s=
tyle=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;[this document]</span><s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:21.55pt;punctuation-wrap:simple=
"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp; 3&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ODU3 (i.e., 40 Gbps)</span><span lang=3D"SV" s=
tyle=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [this document]</span><s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:21.55pt;punctuation-wrap:simple=
"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp; 4&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ODU4 (i.e., 100 Gbps)</span><span lang=3D"SV" =
style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [this document]</span><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:21.55pt;punctuation-wrap:simple=
"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp; 5&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Reserved (for future use)</span><span lang=3D"=
SV" style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;[this document]</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"color:#002060"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:21.55pt;punctuation-wrap:simple=
"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"SV" style=3D"color:#002060">6&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Optical Channel (Och) at 2.5 Gbps&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 &nbsp;&nbsp;[this document]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:21.55pt;punctuation-wrap:simple=
"><span lang=3D"SV" style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp; 7&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; OCh at 10 Gbps&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;[this document]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:21.55pt;punctuation-wrap:simple=
"><span lang=3D"SV" style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp; 8&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; OCh at 40 Gbps&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [this document]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:21.55pt;punctuation-wrap:simple=
"><span lang=3D"SV" style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp; 9&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; OCh at 100 Gbps&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; [this document]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:21.55pt;punctuation-wrap:simple=
"><span lang=3D"SV" style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp; 10&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ODU0 (i.e., 1.25 Gbps)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [this document]<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:21.55pt;punctuation-wrap:simple=
"><span lang=3D"SV" style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp; 11&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ODU2e (i.e., 10Gbps for FC1200&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [this document]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:21.55pt;punctuation-wrap:simple=
"><span lang=3D"SV" style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and GE LAN)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:21.55pt;punctuation-wrap:simple=
"><span lang=3D"SV" style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060">12~19&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 Reserved (for future use)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"SV" style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;[this document=
]</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:21.55pt;punctuation-wrap:simple=
"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp; 20&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ODUflex(CBR) (i.e., 1.25*N Gbps)&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"SV" style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;[t=
his document]</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:21.55pt;punctuation-wrap:simple=
"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp; 21&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ODUflex(Generic Framing
</span><span lang=3D"SV" style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;[this document]</span><span lang=3D=
"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:21.55pt;punctuation-wrap:simple=
"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Procedure-Framed (GFP-F)),
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:21.55pt;punctuation-wrap:simple=
"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;resizable (i.e., 1.25*N Gbps)<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:21.55pt;punctuation-wrap:simple=
"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp; 22&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ODUflex(GFP-F), non resizable
</span><span lang=3D"SV" style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;[this document]</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#=
002060"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:21.55pt;punctuation-wrap:simple=
"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (i.e., 1.25*N Gbps)<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060">&nbs=
p;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;23~255&nbsp;&nbsp; Reserved (for future use)</sp=
an><span lang=3D"SV" style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [this document]</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#002060"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Lou<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; That's it on this docum=
ent.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; Lou<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; -<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_F82A4B6D50F9464B8EBA55651F541CF835842D0FSZXEML552MBXchi_--

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From: Gert Grammel <ggrammel@juniper.net>
To: Iftekhar Hussain <IHussain@infinera.com>, Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>, CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Yes,

I meant OE connectivity in the edge node. It doesn't matter in most switchi=
ng technologies, but for wavelength switching there may be some ugly constr=
aints to consider.

Gert
________________________________________
From: Iftekhar Hussain
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2012 12:50:19 AM
To: Gert Grammel; Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP
Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context

For C " scales best but connectivity ...", by connectivity do you mean OEs =
interconnectivity?

BR,
Iftekhar
-----Original Message-----
From: Gert Grammel [mailto:ggrammel@juniper.net]
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 6:34 AM
To: Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context

Honestly,

If there are three ways of doing it, I first would like to define 3 unambig=
uous terms to name them.
After that we can decide what makes most sense.
A) doesn't look scalable
B) is better but still creates tons of links
C) scales best but connectivity needs to be taken into account.

If we name A "virtual client link" VCL, then B could be a "virtual attachme=
nt link" VAL and C a "virtual topological link" VTL.

Gert



________________________________________
From: Daniele Ceccarelli
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 3:13:14 PM
To: Gert Grammel; CCAMP
Subject: RE: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context

Hi Gert,

Excellent catch. I totally missed it.

Then we have two options for Virtual links definition...but thinking a litt=
le bit more of it, there are actually 3 of them.

OC1                               OC2
  \    +---+IF2       IF3+---+    /
   \IF1|OE1|-------------|OE2|IF4/
       +---+             +---+

A) Virtual link is from OC1 to OC2
B) Virtual link is from IF1 to IF4
C) Virtual link is from IF2 to IF3

Defining the virtual link as from IF2 to IF3 would need also to include the=
 connectivity matrices of OE1 and OE2, while from IF1 to IF4 would remove t=
he need for them as the information related to the connectivity matrix is a=
lready implied into the virtual link. Am i missing something?

What would you suggest as the more reasonable definition?

Cheers,
Daniele


>-----Original Message-----
>From: Gert Grammel [mailto:ggrammel@juniper.net]
>Sent: luned=EC 17 dicembre 2012 14.27
>To: Daniele Ceccarelli; CCAMP
>Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>Daniele,
>
>Thank you for summarizing the current state of discussion. To move
>forward and to encourage comments, let me point to some of the issues
>that are debated:
>
>1) Virtual Link: in the terminology statement a virtual link seems to
>connect two client elements. However later on the 3) virtual topology
>is composed of access links and virtual links. Hence. Virtual links
>connect server nodes, not client nodes. By doing so, segments (AL and
>VL) are created.
>2) The scalability consideration in the appendix for VL is based on
>terminology 1) rather than on virtual topology 3).
>This way it doesn't describe then the  scalability of a virtual
>topology (which doesn't necessitate a full mesh) but rather that of a
>virtual node (which implies a full connectivity matrix).
>
>To sum up:
>1) we have to come up with a crisp definition of a VL in a virtual
>topology that is different from a terminology 1) VL.
>Here is a gap
>2) A Model based on a vitual node or 'terminology 1) links'
>create n**2 problems on client side and does not scale.
>3) 'VNT'-virtual-links 3) and access links are supposed to address the
>scaling problem. We need to clean up our terminology. Otherwise we end
>up associating limitations of terminology 1) links with VNT-links that
>address those limitations.
>
>Now looking at the appendix it sadly reflects the terminology confusion
>and jumps to assessment and conclusions. That's unfortunate:
>
>The first line says:
>Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly,
>--> is it now about virtual nodes or virtual links or VNT links?
>2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is by
>having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the middle
>of the virtual topology
>--> that's why access links are so useful. They end at server nodes
>--> which are connected via virtual links
>3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain
>switches, because, generally speaking:
>--> in case of VNT-VLs no intermediate nodes are necessarily required
>4.  --> No need to comment, this way doesn't scale anyway.
>5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could
>potentially go through a real server domain switch, the latter's
>connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so that the two
>services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail if a single
>internal element shared by the services fails
>--> who is 'you' that computes? A client selects among VNT
>virtual links based on exposed SRLGs, VLs are computed by the server
>with full knowledge of constraints. So what does an 'internal' SRLG
>mean to a server path computation?
>6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be
>addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking
>switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no difference
>between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
>--> I suggest to model a complete network of say 5 nodes in a
>single VN and compare it with the model of a single real node.
>
>--> The assessments made have used a terminology definition
>that doesn't really capture the case made for VNT-VLs.
>That's why I would have had appreciated to split definitions and work
>items agreed among a group from individual assessments in separate
>emails.
>Nevertheless I consider the first part of your email (all except the
>appendix) as a good starting point for further clarification.
>
>Gert
>________________________________________
>From: ccamp-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Daniele Ceccarelli
>Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 12:17:08 PM
>To: CCAMP
>Subject: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
>
>Dear CCAMPers,
>
>In the last weeks several off-line discussions on the Overlay model
>framework and related works took place. Some discussions led to some
>sort of agreemet among a small group of people, some others to a set a
>viable options, some others to totally open issues. I tried to
>summarize the output of such discussions below so to progress the
>discussions into a single thread on the WG ML.
>
>Please note that the aim of this mail is not to present a well shaped
>and conclusive idea to the WG but rather to provide the basis for
>starting a discussion from a barely shaped idea (step 1) instead of
>starting it from scratch (step 0).
>
>In addition you can find attached a slide depicting a proposal of the
>overlay scenario.
>
>Thanks,
>Daniele
>
>+ Disclaimer:
> 1. Packet opto integration is often considered but the work can be
>extented to any type of SC. Eg. TDM over LSC.
>
>+ Terminology:
>
> 1. Virtual Link: A virtual link is a potential path between two
>virtual or real network elements in a client layer network  that is
>maintained/controlled in and by the server domain control plane (and as
>such cannot transport any traffic/data and protected from being
>de-provisioned) and which can be instantiated in the data plane (and
>then can carry/transport/forward traffic/data) preserving previously
>advertised attributes such as fate sharing information.
> 2.  Virtual Node: Virtual node is a collection of zero or more server
>network  domain nodes that are collectively represented to the clients
>as a single node that exists in the client layer network and is capable
>of terminating of access, inter-domain and virtual links.
> 3.Virtual Topology: Virtual topology is a collection of one or more
>virtual or real server network domain nodes that exist in the client
>layer network and are interconnected via 0 or more virtual links.
> 4. Overlay topology:  is a superset of virtual topologies provided by
>each of server network domains, access and inter-domain links.
> 5. Access Link: Link between OC and OE. GMPLS runs on that link. It
>can support any of the SCs supported by the GMPLS.
> 6. Overlay Customer (OC): Something like the CN in RFC4208 teminology
>but (i) receiving virtual topology from the core network and requesting
>the set up of one of them or (ii) requesting the computation and
>establishment of a path accordingly to gien constraints in the core
>network and receiving the parameters characterizing such path. (ii) =3D=3D
>UNI.
> 7. Overlay Edge (OE): Something like the EN in RFC4208 but able to
>deal with (i) and (ii) above.
> 8. ONI : Overlay network interface: Interface allowing for signaling
>and routing messages exchange between Overlay and Core network. Routing
>information consists on virtual topology advertisement. When there is
>no routing adjacency across the interface it is equivalent to the GMPLS
>UNI defined in 4208.
>Signaling messages are compliant with RFC4208. Information related to
>path carachteristics, e.g. TE-metrics, collected SRLG, path delay etc,
>either passed from OE to OC via signaling after the LSP establishment
>in the core network or from OC to OE to be used as path computation
>constraints, fall under the definition of signaling info and not
>routing info).
> 9. O-NNI (name to be found,maybe reused): Interface on the links
>between different core networks in the overlay model environment, i.e.
>Between border OEs. Same features of the ONI apply to this interface.
>Could it be an E-NNI? A ONI? A new name is needed?
>
>+ Statements
> 1. In the context of overlay model we are aiming to build an overlay
>topology for the client network domains  2. The overlay topology is
>comprised of:
>    a) access links (links connecting client NEs to the server network
>domains). They can be PSC or LSC.
>    b) inter-domain links (links interconnecting server network
>domains)
>    c) virtual topology provided by the server network domains. Virtual
>Links + Virtual Nodes (TBD) + Connectivity Matrix (with a set of
>parameters e.g. SRLG, optical impairments, delay etc for each entry)
>describing connectivity between access links and virtual links.
> 3. In the context of overlay model we manage  hierarchy  of overlay
>topologies with overlay/underlay relationships  4. In the context of
>overlay model multi-layering and inter-layer relationships are
>peripheral at best, it is all about horizontal network integration  5.
>The overlay model assumes one instance for the client network and a
>separate instance for the server network and in the ONI case the server
>network also surreptitiously participates in the client network by
>injecting virtual topology information into it.
> 6. L1VPN (and LxVPN) in general is a service provided over the ONI (it
>falls under the UNI case as no routing adjacency is in place between OC
>and OE).
>
>+ Open issues/questions
>
> 1. PCE-PCEP - do we need to include considerations about PCE and PCEP
>into the overlay framework context?
> 2. BGP-LS needs to be considered
> 3. Should potentials be included? E.g. I2RS?
>
>+ Appendix:
>Some notes on the Virtual Node:
>1.      Virtual Link Model along, sadly, does not scale
>because of N**2 problem. IP over ATM and single-segment PWs have the
>same issue, that's why people invented multi-segment PWs
>2.      The only way to avoid full-mesh of Virtual Links is by
>having intermediate nodes interconnecting Virtual Links in the middle
>of the virtual topology
>3.      These intermediate nodes cannot be real server domain
>switches, because, generally speaking:
>  a)Real switches belong to different layer network;
>  b)Real switches are named from different naming space
>  c)real switches individually may not have sufficient resources to
>terminate virtual links (while a group of real switches collectively
>will have)
>  d)Presenting a group of real switches as a single virtual node have
>better scalability qualities
>4.      Even if you map a virtual node on a single real node,
>you need to keep in mind that real server domain switches are,
>generally speaking, blocking switches and as such must expose their
>connectivity matrices
>5.      If you want to compute SRLG-disjoint paths that could
>potentially go through a real server domain switch, the latter's
>connectivity matrix must expose "internal" SRLGs, so that the two
>services traversing the switch will not simultaneously fail if a single
>internal element shared by the services fails
>6.      If you walk through all cases that need to be
>addressed when you are traffic engineering topologies with blocking
>switches, you will understand that there is absolutely no difference
>between a virtual node and real blocking real node.
>7.      Even in case of pure VL model, client NEs connected to
>server network domain must be upgraded so that they could understand
>the connectivity matrices advertised by the border nodes describing
>connectivity constraints between access links and virtual links they
>terminate.
>
>
>
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>DANIELE CECCARELLI
>System & Technology - PDU Optical & Metro
>
>Via E.Melen, 77
>Genova, Italy
>Phone +390106002512
>Mobile +393346725750
>daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com
>www.ericsson.com
>
>This Communication is Confidential. We only send and receive email on
>the basis of the term set out at www.ericsson.com/email_disclaimer
>
>
>





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From: Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>
To: Snigdho Bardalai <SBardalai@infinera.com>, John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>, Snigdho Bardalai <sbardalai1@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 15:22:51 +0000
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Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] Overlay model framework and context
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