From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org Wed Jan 5 15:07:22 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: charter-tool@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: charter-tool@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AB6E3A6E12 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2011 15:07:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.66 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.66 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.386, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XrZDqEoExJwc for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2011 15:07:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (Hoffman.Proper.COM [207.182.41.81]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51D193A6D0B for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2011 15:07:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from MacBook-08.local (75-101-30-90.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [75.101.30.90]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.14.4/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p05N9RVq041687 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 5 Jan 2011 16:09:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Message-ID: <4D24FA26.7050205@vpnc.org> Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2011 15:09:26 -0800 From: Paul Hoffman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.2.13) Gecko/20101207 Thunderbird/3.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: charter-tool@ietf.org References: <997535C7-BE65-46D7-AD78-CC0D63E4A6C8@vigilsec.com> In-Reply-To: <997535C7-BE65-46D7-AD78-CC0D63E4A6C8@vigilsec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [charter-tool] Quick look at draft-ietf-genarea-charter-tool-02 X-BeenThere: charter-tool@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2011 23:07:22 -0000 On 12/27/10 3:59 PM, Russ Housley wrote: > I did not do a complete read of the document, but I was looking at it for other reasons, so I thought I would share the comments that emerged with the list. I have updated the forthcoming -03 for your first three changes. Note that the wording in the -02 that you didn't like comes from the SOW under which I was working. Note however: > Section 2.3 -- the state machine seems incomplete to me. I see the process this way: . . . Russ last week sent me the "Working Group Procedures" document that the IESG and Secretariat work from; I didn't have it before. That has many, many differences from the steps that I guessed at based on the initial SOW. I will make those changes (modified by changes suggested on this list in -04, which should come out soon after the -03. That is, the -03 will have changes from the recent threads, but -04 will have a lot of state changes and action differences based on the "Working Group Procedures" document. From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org Wed Jan 5 15:13:54 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: charter-tool@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: charter-tool@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B6443A6E33 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2011 15:13:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.662 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.662 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.384, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E3kVIMdlDUvP for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2011 15:13:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (Hoffman.Proper.COM [207.182.41.81]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8942D3A6E3D for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2011 15:13:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from MacBook-08.local (75-101-30-90.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [75.101.30.90]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.14.4/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p05NFxDZ041957 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2011 16:16:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Message-ID: <4D24FBAF.40204@vpnc.org> Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2011 15:15:59 -0800 From: Paul Hoffman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.2.13) Gecko/20101207 Thunderbird/3.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: charter-tool@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [charter-tool] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-genarea-charter-tool-03 X-BeenThere: charter-tool@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2011 23:13:54 -0000 As I mentioned just now, there will be an -04 soon with lots of state changes. If you have comments on the -03, they are still welcome as I work on the -04. --Paul Hoffman -------- Original Message -------- Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-genarea-charter-tool-03 Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 15:10:50 -0800 (PST) From: IETF I-D Submission Tool To: paul.hoffman@vpnc.org A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-genarea-charter-tool-03.txt has been successfully submitted by Paul Hoffman and posted to the IETF repository. Filename: draft-ietf-genarea-charter-tool Revision: 03 Title: Requirements for a Working Group Charter Tool Creation_date: 2011-01-05 WG ID: genarea Number_of_pages: 8 Abstract: The IETF intends to provide a new tool to Area Directors for the creation, re-chartering, and closing of Working Groups. The tool will also allow the IETF community to view the status of the chartering process. This document describes the requirements for the proposed new tool, and it is intended as input to a later activity for the design and development of such a tool. The IETF Secretariat. From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org Thu Jan 13 18:34:15 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: charter-tool@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: charter-tool@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98C043A6C36 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2011 18:34:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.345, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j7CvtNS1qIrl for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2011 18:34:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (Hoffman.Proper.COM [207.182.41.81]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6F233A67EE for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2011 18:34:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from MacBook-08.local (75-101-30-90.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [75.101.30.90]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.14.4/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p0E2abuU066309 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2011 19:36:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Message-ID: <4D2FB6B5.8030808@vpnc.org> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 18:36:37 -0800 From: Paul Hoffman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.2.13) Gecko/20101207 Thunderbird/3.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: charter-tool@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [charter-tool] Fwd: I-D Action:draft-ietf-genarea-charter-tool-04.txt X-BeenThere: charter-tool@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 02:34:15 -0000 Greetings again. As promised, I have done a huge revision on the last draft to bring the steps in line with current steps followed by the IESG for chartering. I may have made mistakes in trying to do this alignment, and can easily change it. I have also made other additions requested by Robert Sparks and Russ Housley. Reviews are definitely requested. --Paul Hoffman -------- Original Message -------- Subject: I-D Action:draft-ietf-genarea-charter-tool-04.txt Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 18:00:01 -0800 From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the General Area Open Meeting Working Group of the IETF. Title : Requirements for a Working Group Charter Tool Author(s) : P. Hoffman Filename : draft-ietf-genarea-charter-tool-04.txt Pages : 10 Date : 2011-01-13 The IETF intends to provide a new tool to Area Directors for the creation, re-chartering, and closing of Working Groups. The tool will also allow the IETF community to view the status of the chartering process. This document describes the requirements for the proposed new tool, and it is intended as input to a later activity for the design and development of such a tool. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-genarea-charter-tool-04.txt From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org Sat Jan 29 18:19:38 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: charter-tool@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: charter-tool@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 185FD3A699E; Sat, 29 Jan 2011 18:19:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.297, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Dp51wy34d9Y0; Sat, 29 Jan 2011 18:19:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (Hoffman.Proper.COM [207.182.41.81]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2906E3A68A3; Sat, 29 Jan 2011 18:19:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from MacBook-08.local (75-101-30-90.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [75.101.30.90]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.14.4/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p0U2MkeR090359 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 29 Jan 2011 19:22:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Message-ID: <4D44CB76.40400@vpnc.org> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 18:22:46 -0800 From: Paul Hoffman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.2.13) Gecko/20101207 Thunderbird/3.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Sparks References: <4D2FB6B5.8030808@vpnc.org> <4D387D03.4040102@vpnc.org> <1ECD2A38-ED75-47B1-A5EA-84187761731A@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <1ECD2A38-ED75-47B1-A5EA-84187761731A@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: charter-tool@ietf.org, IESG IESG Subject: Re: [charter-tool] Fwd: I-D Action:draft-ietf-genarea-charter-tool-04.txt X-BeenThere: charter-tool@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 02:19:38 -0000 On 1/24/11 1:25 PM, Robert Sparks wrote: > Apologies for the shotgun nature of the following comments, but I > wanted to get what I had to you now rather than later (apologies for > the delay so far): > > In the data for the WG record, should the Secretary(ies) be > included? Sure; added. > The tool shouldn't force the chairs to be populated for anything > except actual issued charters. Allowing them to be populated is ok, > but it can't require them. Done. > The tool should make it easy to track information and make the right > changes if the name of the group changes during, or especially at the > very end of, the BoF and review phase. Not sure what you mean here. It already allows changes; are you asking that someone can look up the earlier name and find the current charter proposal? > When closing groups, documents in flight may end up in other groups, > not just be withdrawn or converted to individual. There may be other > possible dispositions as well. I think the text is saying the tool > should remind the AD to say something, not constrain what the AD is > going to say. Could you make this clearer? In any case, it should be > clear if this tool is supposed to go touch document records. (I think > the answer is no. The responsible AD can use the existing tracker to > make the appropriate changes to the documents.) Good call; fixed. > The charter naming convention was useful for stating search and > compare requirements, but I would prefer that it be described as a > way to be precise in stating the requirement rather than declaring > that the solution (something meeting those requirements another way > might make tracking name change I discuss above easier for > instance). I'm hearing mixed messages. :-) I think a contractor implementing this would be much more likely to get it right the first time if we are specific. If you want something different for the specific naming algorithm I gave, that's cool, but asking a contractor to come up with their own isn't likely to work as well as us defining one. > "Initial IESG and IAB review" does not match the string "Internal > Review" that shows up in the agendas now. Correct. "Internal review" does not describe whom it is internal to. Part of the purpose here is to make the states more understandable to the wider audience who will now be tracking charters. Is the difference a problem in this case? > Instead of "extend the current ballot system", I would prefer a > requirement that said "use a mechanism similar to the current ballot > system". (It would probably produce surprising results to have > ballots for the charters show up in searches across the set of > ballots for documents. It would add an exceptional case, for > instance, when trying to build stats across those searches "Standards > track, Informational, Experimental, and Charter (?!)". Good catch. Fixed. > I think we should be really careful to distinguish those parts of the > document where we are capturing requirements that reflect what we > currently do vs those parts where we're building the tool to let us > do something different. In particular, we should try really hard not > to let a requirements document for a tool be the place where we > establish process. For instance, " The normal next state is "Initial > IESG and IAB review" if the idea is accepted, or "WG exists" if this > attempt to recharter is abandoned. " doesn't map onto existing > process very well. Things go into Internal Review... The normal next state is just a suggestion; an AD can move the charter to any state. I have now made that clearer. All these changes now appear in the -05: Title : Requirements for a Working Group Charter Tool Author(s) : P. Hoffman Filename : draft-ietf-genarea-charter-tool-05.txt Pages : 10 Date : 2011-01-29 A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-genarea-charter-tool-05.txt --Paul Hoffman