From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org Fri Feb 4 11:02:42 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: charter-tool@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: charter-tool@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D57493A68F0; Fri, 4 Feb 2011 11:02:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.761 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.761 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.285, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VBjngKpXq75h; Fri, 4 Feb 2011 11:02:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (Hoffman.Proper.COM [207.182.41.81]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94BD53A692E; Fri, 4 Feb 2011 11:02:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from MacBook-08.local (75-101-30-90.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [75.101.30.90]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.14.4/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p14J64gG026578 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 4 Feb 2011 12:06:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Message-ID: <4D4C4E1C.2070809@vpnc.org> Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2011 11:06:04 -0800 From: Paul Hoffman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.2.13) Gecko/20101207 Thunderbird/3.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Sparks References: <4D2FB6B5.8030808@vpnc.org> <4D387D03.4040102@vpnc.org> <1ECD2A38-ED75-47B1-A5EA-84187761731A@nostrum.com> <4D44CB76.40400@vpnc.org> <3BD6EC0C-EDF5-4ACB-9BC6-B9BDEFCB5B53@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <3BD6EC0C-EDF5-4ACB-9BC6-B9BDEFCB5B53@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: charter-tool@ietf.org, IESG IESG Subject: Re: [charter-tool] Fwd: I-D Action:draft-ietf-genarea-charter-tool-04.txt X-BeenThere: charter-tool@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2011 19:02:42 -0000 On 2/4/11 10:12 AM, Robert Sparks wrote: > > On Jan 29, 2011, at 8:22 PM, Paul Hoffman wrote: > >> On 1/24/11 1:25 PM, Robert Sparks wrote: > > >>> >> >>> The tool should make it easy to track information and make the right >>> changes if the name of the group changes during, or especially at the >>> very end of, the BoF and review phase. >> >> Not sure what you mean here. It already allows changes; are you asking >> that someone can look up the earlier name and find the current charter >> proposal? > > At least. There have been a few cases recently where the WG charter that > got approved had a different name for the working group than > the name in all of the proposals (and sometimes even the name that went > through the WG review call to IETF announce. If the tool is supposed > to facilitate the approved charter against the proposals leading to it, > it needs to make following that change easy. > > This could also happen during the sequence of proposals before it gets > to the WG review stage. Got it. Fixed in the next draft. >>> The charter naming convention was useful for stating search and >>> compare requirements, but I would prefer that it be described as a >>> way to be precise in stating the requirement rather than declaring >>> that the solution (something meeting those requirements another way >>> might make tracking name change I discuss above easier for >>> instance). >> >> I'm hearing mixed messages. :-) I think a contractor implementing this >> would be much more likely to get it right the first time if we are >> specific. If you want something different for the specific naming >> algorithm I gave, that's cool, but asking a contractor to come up with >> their own isn't likely to work as well as us defining one. > > I was hoping to leave the door open to a solution that didn't assume the > distinction and mapping would be done based on filenames. > These things could authoritatively live as records in a database instead > of in discrete files. > This is a classic spot where we are defining a mechanism instead of > stating a requirement. > Perhaps that's the right thing to do when managing the vendors at hand. I formalized on filenames because the IETF has not had the greatest record of getting things out of databases run by different contractors over time. A mirrorable filesytem, although not the most efficient database, fixes that future transition issue in many ways. >>> "Initial IESG and IAB review" does not match the string "Internal >>> Review" that shows up in the agendas now. >> >> Correct. "Internal review" does not describe whom it is internal to. >> Part of the purpose here is to make the states more understandable to >> the wider audience who will now be tracking charters. Is the >> difference a problem in this case? > > It is if the phrases start showing up on the screens of the produced tool. They would, of course. I will change this back to "Internal Review" in the next draft, and hope that people looking at the tool understand whom the review is internal to. --Paul Hoffman From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org Sat Feb 5 14:31:52 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: charter-tool@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: charter-tool@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8A083A6A65 for ; Sat, 5 Feb 2011 14:31:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.447 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.447 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mTBOzxmb6G4i for ; Sat, 5 Feb 2011 14:31:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (Hoffman.Proper.COM [207.182.41.81]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5E433A69B7 for ; Sat, 5 Feb 2011 14:31:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from MacBook-08.local (75-101-30-90.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [75.101.30.90]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.14.4/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p15MVlvo082802 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 5 Feb 2011 15:31:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Message-ID: <4D4DCFD3.20004@vpnc.org> Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 14:31:47 -0800 From: Paul Hoffman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.2.13) Gecko/20101207 Thunderbird/3.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: charter-tool@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------040108040107030204030808" Subject: [charter-tool] Fwd: I-D Action:draft-ietf-genarea-charter-tool-06.txt X-BeenThere: charter-tool@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 22:31:53 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040108040107030204030808 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Diffs at . These mostly take care of the issues that Robert Sparks brought up. --Paul Hoffman -------- Original Message -------- Subject: I-D Action:draft-ietf-genarea-charter-tool-06.txt Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 14:15:02 -0800 From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the General Area Open Meeting Working Group of the IETF. Title : Requirements for a Working Group Charter Tool Author(s) : P. Hoffman Filename : draft-ietf-genarea-charter-tool-06.txt Pages : 10 Date : 2011-02-05 The IETF intends to provide a new tool to Area Directors for the creation, re-chartering, and closing of Working Groups. The tool will also allow the IETF community to view the status of the chartering process. This document describes the requirements for the proposed new tool, and it is intended as input to a later activity for the design and development of such a tool. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-genarea-charter-tool-06.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --------------040108040107030204030808 Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-genarea-charter-tool-06.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="draft-ietf-genarea-charter-tool-06.txt" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2011-02-05140524.I-D@ietf.org> --------------040108040107030204030808 Content-Type: text/plain; name="Attached Message Part" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Attached Message Part" _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt --------------040108040107030204030808--