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Tue, 1 Mar 2022 10:58:54 +0000 From: Francesca Palombini To: "core@ietf.org" CC: "core-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Chairs update Thread-Index: AQHYLVmHDvsuf2D+z0aqQDnWt0vQAA== Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 10:58:54 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=ericsson.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 204fe608-5da9-4e25-0678-08d9fb727a5b x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DB6PR0701MB2599:EE_ x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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boundary="_000_HE1PR07MB4217E4A3A08B29BA3A4D56B698029HE1PR07MB4217eurp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: HE1PR07MB4217.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 204fe608-5da9-4e25-0678-08d9fb727a5b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 01 Mar 2022 10:58:54.5858 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: vDoyc8Moy+MdxPzM4cnvYFYU/JAcy1i9Jtkjg5OA6Kf/jSaw8htvaFaUXtoQtM0VvcynpeggodRwmzDJKf9nVET8N8aBe+BqC3ipfttr1AhTyChY+v8t619RFI/pgjUp X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB6PR0701MB2599 Archived-At: Subject: [core] Chairs update X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2022 10:59:04 -0000 --_000_HE1PR07MB4217E4A3A08B29BA3A4D56B698029HE1PR07MB4217eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Marco and Jaime have let me know that Jaime won=92t be able to chair CoRE f= or some time. Carsten has accepted to help us and step back into the chair = role for an indefinite amount of time - starting now, including and followi= ng IETF 113, as needed - which is much appreciated. I will be adding Carste= n as chair to the datatracker, so you should see some mail about that soon. Thanks again Carsten for being willing to get back in your old shoes for th= e time needed, and thanks Marco for holding the fort. Francesca --_000_HE1PR07MB4217E4A3A08B29BA3A4D56B698029HE1PR07MB4217eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all,<= /span>

 

Marco and Jaime hav= e let me know that Jaime won=92t be able to chair CoRE for some time. Carst= en has accepted to help us and step back into the chair role for an indefin= ite amount of time - starting now, including and following IETF 113, as needed - which is much appreciated. I will be a= dding Carsten as chair to the datatracker, so you should see some mail abou= t that soon.

 

Thanks again Carste= n for being willing to get back in your old shoes for the time needed, and = thanks Marco for holding the fort.

Francesca

--_000_HE1PR07MB4217E4A3A08B29BA3A4D56B698029HE1PR07MB4217eurp_-- From nobody Wed Mar 2 06:37:44 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D9093A08A6 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2022 06:37:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NVEJRV_Bocxm for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2022 06:37:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.akis.at (smtp.akis.at [IPv6:2a02:b18:500:a515::f455]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9834D3A08BF for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2022 06:37:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from poseidon-mailhub.amsuess.com ([IPv6:2a02:b18:c13b:8010:a800:ff:fede:b1bd]) by smtp.akis.at (8.17.1/8.17.1) with ESMTPS id 222EbY1q054749 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2022 15:37:34 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from christian@amsuess.com) X-Authentication-Warning: smtp.akis.at: Host [IPv6:2a02:b18:c13b:8010:a800:ff:fede:b1bd] claimed to be poseidon-mailhub.amsuess.com Received: from poseidon-mailbox.amsuess.com (hermes.amsuess.com [10.13.13.254]) by poseidon-mailhub.amsuess.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A451D0 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2022 15:37:31 +0100 (CET) Received: from hephaistos.amsuess.com (unknown [IPv6:2a02:b18:c13b:8010:b5b3:8f4d:f51c:7cb7]) by poseidon-mailbox.amsuess.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 45D11FD for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2022 15:37:30 +0100 (CET) Received: (nullmailer pid 3272975 invoked by uid 1000); Wed, 02 Mar 2022 14:37:29 -0000 Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 15:37:29 +0100 From: Christian =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ams=FCss?= To: core@ietf.org Message-ID: References: <164623127479.18079.9103824327889774323@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="5pGLwc08wH747184" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <164623127479.18079.9103824327889774323@ietfa.amsl.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] New Version Notification for draft-amsuess-core-coap-kitchensink-00.txt X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2022 14:37:44 -0000 --5pGLwc08wH747184 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello CoRE, I've assembled a short (and clearly not comprehensive) overview of tools built on top of CoAP, with the intention of making (re)usable components known more widely, to get a better grip on where doing something over CoAP makes sense and where not, and to identify gaps, closing some (like, I've been using "poor man's NTP" for almost a decade now and never wrote anything). Therer is no clear direction for this document, and working on it may easily not be in scope for this WG (well, the I-D format may not even be ideal here), but nonetheless I hope it is of interest to some of you. BR c On Wed, Mar 02, 2022 at 06:27:54AM -0800, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > A new version of I-D, draft-amsuess-core-coap-kitchensink-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Christian Ams=FCss and posted to the > IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-amsuess-core-coap-kitchensink > Revision: 00 > Title: Everything over CoAP > Document date: 2022-03-02 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 10 > URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-amsuess-core-coap-k= itchensink-00.txt > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-amsuess-core-coap-= kitchensink/ > Html: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-amsuess-core-coap-k= itchensink-00.html > Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-amsuess-core-= coap-kitchensink >=20 >=20 > Abstract: > The Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP) has become the base of > applications both inside of the constrained devices space it > originally aimed for and outside. This document gives an overview of > applications that are, can, may, and would better not be implemented > on top of CoAP. --=20 To use raw power is to make yourself infinitely vulnerable to greater power= s. -- Bene Gesserit axiom --5pGLwc08wH747184 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEECM1tElX6OodcH7CWOY0REtOkveEFAmIfgSIACgkQOY0REtOk veHrRA/9FUMbtsakKiaF4WuUz4JCbOh+RhJnxGRPXM7rU5O8Q5uWOIgh1EOYTzXz N3vMDGPhHn4lG2ecB1V1ztjCcAKT2ouBOXhQTWQaZXZTnW//VmgftJyRK0RsY6wS +7uc5rZxnec3bmzLrg50UonC7VhtYhWyoaiVAkOGY0MLWnvzyCYqzj9bUXmqJoPw KvMeTXRuVnaABEypdm0rbQerycvIEKWO8RsSuEPLfbVFOmJ7b0l0BvvigGJi+zH+ tEvlKOdB49pystMvXHDQJC4GmZPv6kGwv9C8DAvhShDBUF15jTIlbM+JoIE1FjX7 HkZi4nmpbIrE17mIXqTrmliCLB7L4kkb05cKrb8GaFpkKb0zfHp/AudbMsxkMMxF Gcu3bQm7Y77fDW+DNh0Ts1RRMR7lJzT+9U6d6MsHgvrR3NX2tTivtPidpUXl79SP NCSu/pyw1IMJQLgHypOBieEmhQiZyLlO1FTuFrFayO3ZW9ArUC7Hy2FiavlN7Urh E0SR5q4tqRDW/1qmXWYpFXmnCEifjXG7uVWp23d3G1XcbIyzzGhe2LEsfHYMm06e BGnte2E0qevrSK3fE5wrl6zZ6EwcJ5SerPYKJDDV2AKUDFK43AGWKqC3fRNmP77z d7ZPKCP3b0K6xCWOpIpAAixLiA7xLJRaEdKb3al9An9Mw9pMl1k= =+ZJ9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --5pGLwc08wH747184-- From nobody Wed Mar 2 11:16:36 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D4813A0958 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2022 11:16:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.109 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.109 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=sandelman.ca Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w9YbBkDvxkNG for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2022 11:16:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D7FF73A0C26 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2022 11:16:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9398338BC0; Wed, 2 Mar 2022 14:25:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id Y0igtw-sTs1m; Wed, 2 Mar 2022 14:25:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AA0238BB4; Wed, 2 Mar 2022 14:25:23 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=sandelman.ca; s=mail; t=1646249123; bh=p1PgMOumzoiT4qyEc3R6frF5CgTl0v+7UwKiKyMsAZg=; h=From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=2+cDUihpUEHOGDqbxdwGAc9d4EPO7WfM/xJ8oWDEi5l1SeB81qYMZnpMpXBYt+8R1 bfZN4jphO2sYsRCXwpwyMUNxaw0/jy76+QgAFCBo9xIzlIi4dVvfAUxmLRMWZ979rm K7mxaiC62PQUFpwh7rXidzmbEQIynylD47gQq2Ku9DjYZIabYPaLjFDTqUl2Lhlzld S4XKxzFnSdvxfVCrj3l//DmhDRDfnQ2ddreMqkwfNLm376PgL2GDeSTAH0Pg66Dh+w B7U2MREFl6wncqf/wLoBW0Oqol7Q5gR4iJtdcjpUh3hWNkn5BC8vYpowfa3AWnvH/a JJuLc1xUrf92g== Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 778CD2B3; Wed, 2 Mar 2022 14:16:22 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Christian =?us-ascii?Q?=3D=3Fiso-8859-1=3FQ=3FAms=3DFCss=3F=3D?= cc: core@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <164623127479.18079.9103824327889774323@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] New Version Notification for draft-amsuess-core-coap-kitchensink-00.txt X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2022 19:16:35 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Christian Ams=C3=BCss wrote: > I've assembled a short (and clearly not comprehensive) overview of to= ols > built on top of CoAP, with the intention of making (re)usable compone= nts > known more widely, to get a better grip on where doing something over > CoAP makes sense and where not, and to identify gaps, closing some > (like, I've been using "poor man's NTP" for almost a decade now and > never wrote anything). I think that I understand your goals. I like how you indicate what it competes with, and what remains to be done. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iPMEAQEKAB0WIQSk7ZHEG9TCGBNASfm/sjw/rPYc8wUCYh/ChgAKCRC/sjw/rPYc 8whIBfsECoTL1eEn0PyWWh4aHNJgbnQcN1xUTalo63IMrBeiaRdyefl62fMMDsFI suQVwCYvhYjxQSnin9O+7TUj9a0hSlCwLSR0pSLfODh5C/W4wgCvKGwRUyp7BYfs QTsooL8yaUe2K4ES96s/A7eG/fV3iP7+svuGkZ2WmvZw9tnJY4oAf0NDb4sbVKCy ebbYBYp0ymSFLKilzTSX3blJqVWuoeR9uGVg7qZYgyN9of3PYWjngSUGp1k4WJZ+ 2RMlT1I= =L/kY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Mar 3 04:18:41 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2B053A079A for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2022 04:18:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 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14:14:07 -0000 Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 15:14:07 +0100 From: Christian =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ams=FCss?= To: core@ietf.org Message-ID: References: <164631589165.28413.4855247803286253814@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Iub5+l8stR/GuBM2" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <164631589165.28413.4855247803286253814@ietfa.amsl.com> Archived-At: Subject: [core] New Version Notification for draft-amsuess-core-transport-indication-03.txt X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2022 14:14:17 -0000 --Iub5+l8stR/GuBM2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello CoRE, as indicated in the 2022-02-24 interim, I've updated the document to incorporate most of the recent input. Changes I'd like to highlight are * "the transport address indicated by" a URI is now a defined term that is used consistently (thus distinguishing the resource `/` on that server from the "socket" that the server has open), and * considerations for the security of has-unique-proxy were added, but are not yet conclusive. Playing things through it's interesting that it wouldn't help much if the origin server said that the has-unique-proxy statement is good, but it's the server that gets redireced to whose ignorance becomes problematic. I'll keep pondering but don't expect to have a full solution before the cut-off -- the text there should anyway serve as a base for discussion. (Security text for the non-unique case have been improved, but this mess above doesn't spill over there). Looking forward to discussing this in Vienna Christian --=20 To use raw power is to make yourself infinitely vulnerable to greater power= s. -- Bene Gesserit axiom --Iub5+l8stR/GuBM2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEECM1tElX6OodcH7CWOY0REtOkveEFAmIgzSwACgkQOY0REtOk veHoBw/7BKiGHqR1xd6lUByIIVsUTFhQ7jChaFWdzI3dBnQXDGw+QX4ryahTulme KTNRV5hv0egD1re2MZxhG/UOAA9xr7ZfBiFoaDOMmqbVBRAM0NREdL5cMe2mSR8q vQAsUgMU9gwDe2iXa5DnANdsel9OX1+HU02SGalPIHwIug1bdlbrjoyjmKRGGjqX 1gLFS8pD5hilpLsPl1pi+/m1oM4gX7i2ofuke+8C6sBN6X3rgF4ueXDX5ZxREItK 9N0qkXt9PUhRiqkXdD3eQi14G63Y87Y5EPoeCNqN4+8m0JhHTze7VZ6ykXwrkpRq 9OV3/tBp0UaHHKg9c1jUXyAKc5BqPYxeJP26c4NELhieIaUuTXd0wVS9YRhvkE+I XBsOw/b7ZdO0ftS08w80EtKudH5V30BoL+ZroUEl2ObN+c54dRrZ2ut5fcqFLBtF pk/W9p6SiueiHjA4AZmjZXBL+GhczdkUg9g3ISvtjW2uhiQBSRqlIJS4X4VpwQ41 ps+coeMO+nIcPReQSrHWYnDt0feN/vymipSk2n6MX/aXunDaSUoNTDaSNzz869I2 FLloxwBtnxp1TxX6kLkqEBziw+/EoD/3RwT4yrIgeCUKoHPhGdyKB1kntUI2fGp2 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bWVudDogQ29tcHV0ZXIgU2NpZW5jZQ0KVW5pdDogQ3liZXJzZWN1cml0eQ0KDQpSSVNFIFJl c2VhcmNoIEluc3RpdHV0ZXMgb2YgU3dlZGVuDQpodHRwczovL3d3dy5yaS5zZQ0KDQpQaG9u ZTogKzQ2ICgwKTcwIDYwIDQ2IDUwMQ0KSXNhZmpvcmRzZ2F0YW4gMjIgLyBLaXN0YWfDpW5n ZW4gMTYNClNFLTE2NCA0MCBLaXN0YSAoU3dlZGVuKQ0KDQo= --------------9aMplPWxz2FGJIGawP9p8ud8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Rikard,

Thanks a lot for your review! (and for having considered the latest Editor's copy)

Updates based on your comments are captured in the commit at [1].
=
Please, find also my answers in line.

Best,
/Marco

[1] https://gi= thub.com/core-wg/oscore-groupcomm/commit/532534ebd3240215b2b6a5e9ac0bdd73= ac90d0f9


On 2022-03-03 13:18, Rikard H=C3=B6glu= nd wrote:
Vissa som f=C3=A5tt det h=C3=A4r meddelandet f=C3=A5r = inte ofta e-post fr=C3=A5n rikard.hoglund=3D40= ri.se@dmarc.ietf.org. Se varf=C3=B6r det =C3=A4r vik= tigt
Hello.

My apologies=C2=A0for sending this out so late. I have synced w= ith Marco offline so at least he is aware it is coming.

Best wishes
Rikard

Section 2:
Regardless of what it actually supports,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0each endpoint of a group is aware of wheth= er the group uses the group
=C2=A0 =C2=A0mode, or the pairwise mode, or both.

Is the first part of the sentence redundant?

=3D=3D>MT
Rephrased as follows.

"Each endpoint of a group is aware of whether the group uses the group mode, or the pairwise mode, or both. Then, an endpoint can use any mode it supports if also used in the group."
<=3D=3D


Section 2:
Signature Encryption Algorithm

I wonder if this name could be confused for an algorithm used to encrypt the signature.

=3D=3D>MT
To avoid confusion, I've now added the following sentence.

"This algorithm is not used to encrypt the countersignature in messages protected using the group mode, for which the method defined in Section 4.1 is used."
<=3D=3D


Section 2.2:
A newly installed Recipient Context that has required to delete another Recipient Context is initialized with an invalid Replay Window

Is it the case that any Recipient Context created after some have been deleted is to have its Replay Window be invalid?

=3D=3D>MT
Yes. Now rephrased as below.

"If the new Recipient Context has been installed after the endpoint has experienced the overflow above, then the Recipient Context is initialized with an invalid Replay Window ..."
<=3D=3D


Section "Authentication Credentials":
The used format MUST provide the public key as well as the full set of information related to the public key algorithm

Could it be ambiguous what the "full set" is?

=3D=3D>MT
Changed to "comprehensive set".
<=3D=3D


Section "Authentication Credentials":
Storing whole authentication credentials rather than only a subset of those may result in a non-negligible storage overhead.

May be confusing as the previous paragraph is about only storing a subset of a chain or a bag. It could be clearer that this is an explanation and justification of a design choice.

=3D=3D>MT
The chain/bag is not a credential. The previous paragraph says that the actual credential is only the end-entity certificate provided within the chain/bag, and as such it is stored and used later on.
= <=3D=3D


Section 2.4:
Group OSCORE keys used for both signature and encryption MUST NOT be used for any other purposes than Group OSCORE.

The keys are also used towards the Group Manager, which arguably isn't exactly Group OSCORE, but rather the joining procedure.

=3D=3D>MT
Rephrased as follows.

"Group OSCORE keys used for both signature and encryption MUST be used only for purposes related to Group OSCORE. These include the processing of messages with Group OSCORE, as well as performing proof-of-possession of private keys, e.g., upon joining a group through the Group Manager (see Section 3)."
<=3D=3D


Section 2.4.3:
On the other hand, when combining group and pairwise communication modes, this may result in the Partial IV values moving forward more often. This can happen when a client engages in frequent or long sequences of one-to-one exchanges with servers in the group, by sending requests over unicast.

True, but is it important to mention? What to do with this information?

=3D=3D>MT
Added a sentence to clarify practical implications.

"In turn, this contributes to a sooner exhaustion of the Sender Sequence Number space of the client, which would then require to take actions for deriving a new Sender Context before resuming communications in the group (see Section 2.5.2)."
<=3D=3D


Section "Loss of Mutable Security Context":
An adversary may leverage the above to perform a Denial of Service attack and prevent some group members from communicating altogether. That is, the adversary can first block the communication path between the Group Manager and some individual group members. This can be achieved, for instance, by injecting fake responses to DNS queries for the Group Manager hostname, or by removing a network link used for routing traffic towards the Group Manager. Then, the adversary can trigger a short power outage, which can result in a mass power-cycle and reboot for some endpoints in the group. After that, such endpoints that have lost their Sender Context and/or Recipient Contexts following the reboot would not be able to obtain new Security Context parameters from the Group Manager as specified above. Thus, they would not be able to further communicate in the group until connectivity with the Group Manager is restored.

Is this big section relevant to mention? If an adversary can induce power outages it can do a lot more damage, and in different ways. Perhaps it can be in the security considerations if kept.

=3D=3D>MT
This input came from another review and it conveniently fits here, since it builds on the exact context from the previous paragraphs in Section 2.5.1.1 (which would be quite hard to build again later on in the security considerations).

I have however made some minor rephrasing as below.

OLD:
"Then, the adversary can trigger a short power outage, which can result in a mass power-cycle and reboot for some endpoints in the group."

NEW:
"Then, the adversary can induce a reboot for some endpoints in the group, e.g., by triggering a short power outage."
<=3D=3D


Section "Exhaustion of Sender Sequence Number":
Exhaustion of Sender Sequence Number

May be enough with just a reference to the equivalent OSCORE section? And saying to retrieve new Security Context parameters from the GM

=3D=3D>MT
Kept as is as the result of discussions/reviews on previous versions of the document.
<=3D=3D


Section 2.5.3:
The Recipient ID ('kid') SHOULD NOT be considered as a persistent and reliable indicator of a group member.

Identifier rather than indicator? Not 100% clear what an indicator is in this context.

=3D=3D>MT
Changed to "identifier".
<=3D=3D


Section 9.6:
Also, upon the establishment of a new Security Context, the client re-initializes its Replay Windows in its Recipient Contexts (see {{sec-group-key-management}}).

Isn't this just like in OSCORE? In the sense that a new context gets a reset fresh replay window.

=3D=3D>MT
Yes, with the difference that, in general, there are multiple Recipient Contexts within the same Security Context.

However, I took the opportunity to fix a section reference, now correctly pointing to Section 2.2.
<=3D=3D


Section 9.6:
However, since the notification is protected in pairwise mode, the public key is not used for verifying a countersignature as in {{ssec-verify-response}}. Instead, the expected server's authentication credential - namely Recipient Auth Cred and including the server's public key - was taken as input to derive the Pairwise Recipient Key used to decrypt and verify the notification (see {{key-derivation-pairwise}}).

Just restating what is said shortly above?

=3D=3D>MT
Replaced the quoted text with the following sentence.

"As to the expected server's authentication credential, the same holds as specified above for non-notification responses."
<=3D=3D


Section 11.6:
The entity assigning an IP multicast address may help limiting the chances to experience such collisions of Group Identifiers.

Good to say that it is recommended to assign groups to different multicast IPs when possible?

=3D=3D>MT
The possible mapping between security groups and CoAP groups is actually discussed in the groupcomm-bis document.

This paragraph was meant to suggest a different kind of help. I've now rephrased as below, to provide more context.

"In case multiple groups use the same IP multicast address, the entity assigning that address may help limiting the chances to experience such collisions of Group Identifiers. In particular, it may allow the Group Managers of those groups using the same IP multicast address to share their respective list of assigned Group Identifiers currently in use."
<=3D=3D


Section 11.7.1:
Upon receiving M2, there is a probability equal to 2^-64 that Y successfully verifies the same unchanged MAC by using the Pairwise Recipient Key associated with X in G2.

I wonder why the probability is 2^-64, why is this attack better than simply forging a message to a group member (and hoping the MAC verifies)?

=3D=3D>MT
(Following some more section restructuring, this is now Section 12.7.1)

If one forges a message from scratch, one has indeed the same probability to build something that yields a successful decryption, i.e., such that the MAC verifies.

On top of that, here the result would still be the message originally sent to G1, created as valid by its sender X.
<=3D=3D


From: c= ore <core-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Rikard H=C3=B6= glund <rikard.hoglund=3D40ri.se@dmarc.ietf.org= >
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2022 23:20
To: Jaime Jim=C3=A9nez <jaime@iki.fi>; core@ietf.org <core@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [core] =F0=9F=94=94 WG Last Call of draft-ietf-core-oscore-groupcomm
=C2=A0
rikard.hoglund=3D40ri.se@dmar= c.ietf.org liknar n=C3=A5gon som tidigare har skickat e-post till dig, = men kanske inte =C3=A4r den personen. Se varf=C3=B6r det h=C3=A4= r kan vara en risk
Hello.

I am working on a review that I unfortunately have not been able to finish yet. However I will be sending it out before the end of the week.

Best wishes
Rikard H=C3=B6glund
From: core <core-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Jaime Jim=C3= =A9nez <jaime@iki.fi>
Sent: Wednesday, December 1, 2021 16:59
To: core@ietf.org <core@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [core] =F0=9F=94=94 WG Last Call of draft-ietf-core-oscore-groupcomm
=C2=A0
Dear all,

the deadline for this WGLC is today. Given that we have not received enough reviews and that the Christmas period is arriving soon, we will have to extend the deadline for this.

Marco and I propose 6 more weeks of extension until 2022-01-11 Tuesday, to give more ample time for thorough reviews.

Ciao!
--
Jaime Jim=C3=A9nez

On Tue, Nov 9, 2021, at 8:59 PM, Jaime Jim=C3=A9nez wrote:
> Dear CoRE,
>
> as we discussed yesterday, the authors of
> draft-ietf-core-oscore-groupcomm think their draft is ready for a 2nd
> WGLC. The current version of the draft (v13) is not expecting any
> updates so you can start your planned reviews. >
> https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatat= racker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-core-oscore-groupcomm-13&am= p;data=3D04%7C01%7Crikard.hoglund%40ri.se%7Cc5146db032204faf125d08d9b4e3a= 676%7C5a9809cf0bcb413a838a09ecc40cc9e8%7C0%7C0%7C637739712988375219%7CUnk= nown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLC= JXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=3D6B7dEbJ8l4%2Bvc%2BxrMBiFxN6GRf7lAoi5F= UZBI68cdNQ%3D&amp;reserved=3D0
>
> In addition to the email list discussion reviewers could consider
> opening new issues on the Github repo of the draft as courtesy to the
> authors.
>
> https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fgithu= b.com%2Fcore-wg%2Foscore-groupcomm&amp;data=3D04%7C01%7Crikard.hoglun= d%40ri.se%7Cc5146db032204faf125d08d9b4e3a676%7C5a9809cf0bcb413a838a09ecc4= 0cc9e8%7C0%7C0%7C637739712988375219%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wL= jAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdat= a=3DWFXtDpiQ1RRiW1hP1JeUx0%2F4%2F5i1UKOia9ZNT5NdIns%3D&amp;reserved=3D= 0
>
> As we have the IETF ongoing and the document needs time to be digested,
> we place the end of the call on the 1st of December with a possibility
> of extension depending on the number of reviews.
>
>>From the minutes I take that CA, RH, ED and TF would give it thorough look. Thank you already for that, much appreciated!!
>
> Ciao!
> --
> Jaime Jim=C3=A9nez
>
> _______________________________________________<= br> > core mailing list
> core@ietf.org
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--=20
Marco Tiloca
Ph.D., Senior Researcher

Division: Digital Systems
Department: Computer Science
Unit: Cybersecurity

RISE Research Institutes of Sweden
https://www=
=2Eri.se

Phone: +46 (0)70 60 46 501
Isafjordsgatan 22 / Kistag=C3=A5ngen 16
SE-164 40 Kista (Sweden)
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by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C63A83A19DB; Mon, 7 Mar 2022 10:21:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: core@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.46.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: core@ietf.org Message-ID: <164667730475.31783.4280856776535283703@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 10:21:44 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [core] I-D Action: draft-ietf-core-groupcomm-bis-06.txt X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 18:21:52 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Constrained RESTful Environments WG of the IETF. Title : Group Communication for the Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP) Authors : Esko Dijk Chonggang Wang Marco Tiloca Filename : draft-ietf-core-groupcomm-bis-06.txt Pages : 76 Date : 2022-03-07 Abstract: This document specifies the use of the Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP) for group communication, including the use of UDP/IP multicast as the default underlying data transport. Both unsecured and secured CoAP group communication are specified. Security is achieved by use of the Group Object Security for Constrained RESTful Environments (Group OSCORE) protocol. The target application area of this specification is any group communication use cases that involve resource-constrained devices or networks that support CoAP. This document replaces RFC 7390, while it updates RFC 7252 and RFC 7641. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-groupcomm-bis/ There is also an HTML version available at: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-core-groupcomm-bis-06.html A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-core-groupcomm-bis-06 Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts From nobody Mon Mar 7 10:23:43 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietf.org Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AEDE3A193B; Mon, 7 Mar 2022 10:23:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: core@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.46.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: core@ietf.org Message-ID: <164667741450.26297.10095862953004023017@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 10:23:34 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [core] I-D Action: draft-ietf-core-oscore-groupcomm-14.txt X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 18:23:42 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Constrained RESTful Environments WG of the IETF. Title : Group OSCORE - Secure Group Communication for CoAP Authors : Marco Tiloca Göran Selander Francesca Palombini John Preuss Mattsson Jiye Park Filename : draft-ietf-core-oscore-groupcomm-14.txt Pages : 103 Date : 2022-03-07 Abstract: This document defines Group Object Security for Constrained RESTful Environments (Group OSCORE), providing end-to-end security of CoAP messages exchanged between members of a group, e.g., sent over IP multicast. In particular, the described approach defines how OSCORE is used in a group communication setting to provide source authentication for CoAP group requests, sent by a client to multiple servers, and for protection of the corresponding CoAP responses. Group OSCORE also defines a pairwise mode where each member of the group can efficiently derive a symmetric pairwise key with any other member of the group for pairwise OSCORE communication. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-oscore-groupcomm/ There is also an HTML version available at: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-core-oscore-groupcomm-14.html A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-core-oscore-groupcomm-14 Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts From nobody Mon Mar 7 10:25:58 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietf.org Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F0123A11C5; Mon, 7 Mar 2022 10:25:56 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: core@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.46.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: core@ietf.org Message-ID: <164667755652.3372.15599839111434629401@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 10:25:56 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [core] I-D Action: draft-ietf-core-observe-multicast-notifications-03.txt X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 18:25:57 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Constrained RESTful Environments WG of the IETF. Title : Observe Notifications as CoAP Multicast Responses Authors : Marco Tiloca Rikard Höglund Christian Amsüss Francesca Palombini Filename : draft-ietf-core-observe-multicast-notifications-03.txt Pages : 80 Date : 2022-03-07 Abstract: The Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP) allows clients to "observe" resources at a server, and receive notifications as unicast responses upon changes of the resource state. In some use cases, such as based on publish-subscribe, it would be convenient for the server to send a single notification addressed to all the clients observing a same target resource. This document updates RFC7252 and RFC7641, and defines how a server sends observe notifications as response messages over multicast, synchronizing all the observers of a same resource on a same shared Token value. Besides, this document defines how Group OSCORE can be used to protect multicast notifications end-to-end between the server and the observer clients. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-observe-multicast-notifications/ There is also an HTML version available at: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-core-observe-multicast-notifications-03.html A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-core-observe-multicast-notifications-03 Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts From nobody Mon Mar 7 10:27:35 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietf.org Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 250A93A16B0; Mon, 7 Mar 2022 10:27:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: core@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.46.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: core@ietf.org Message-ID: <164667764812.9045.7945445074240339676@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 10:27:28 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [core] I-D Action: draft-ietf-core-oscore-edhoc-03.txt X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 18:27:34 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Constrained RESTful Environments WG of the IETF. Title : Profiling EDHOC for CoAP and OSCORE Authors : Francesca Palombini Marco Tiloca Rikard Hoeglund Stefan Hristozov Goeran Selander Filename : draft-ietf-core-oscore-edhoc-03.txt Pages : 26 Date : 2022-03-07 Abstract: The lightweight authenticated key exchange protocol EDHOC can be run over CoAP and used by two peers to establish an OSCORE Security Context. This document further profiles this use of the EDHOC protocol, by specifying a number of additional and optional mechanisms. These especially include an optimization approach for combining the execution of EDHOC with the first subsequent OSCORE transaction. This combination reduces the number of round trips required to set up an OSCORE Security Context and to complete an OSCORE transaction using that Security Context. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-oscore-edhoc/ There is also an HTML version available at: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-core-oscore-edhoc-03.html A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-core-oscore-edhoc-03 Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts From nobody Mon Mar 7 10:29:14 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietf.org Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BCAE3A17CC; Mon, 7 Mar 2022 10:29:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: core@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.46.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: core@ietf.org Message-ID: <164667774048.25313.14539075256832228380@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 10:29:00 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [core] I-D Action: draft-ietf-core-oscore-key-update-01.txt X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 18:29:08 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Constrained RESTful Environments WG of the IETF. Title : Key Update for OSCORE (KUDOS) Authors : Rikard Höglund Marco Tiloca Filename : draft-ietf-core-oscore-key-update-01.txt Pages : 45 Date : 2022-03-07 Abstract: Object Security for Constrained RESTful Environments (OSCORE) uses AEAD algorithms to ensure confidentiality and integrity of exchanged messages. Due to known issues allowing forgery attacks against AEAD algorithms, limits should be followed on the number of times a specific key is used for encryption or decryption. This document defines how two OSCORE peers must follow these limits and what steps they must take to preserve the security of their communications. Therefore, this document updates RFC8613. Furthermore, this document specifies Key Update for OSCORE (KUDOS), a lightweight procedure that two peers can use to update their keying material and establish a new OSCORE Security Context. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-oscore-key-update/ There is also an HTML version available at: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-core-oscore-key-update-01.html A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-core-oscore-key-update-01 Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts From nobody Mon Mar 7 12:49:15 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietf.org Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E59DC3A0A9A; Mon, 7 Mar 2022 12:49:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: core@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.46.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: core@ietf.org Message-ID: <164668614689.9161.17380622352897740691@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 12:49:06 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [core] I-D Action: draft-ietf-core-coral-05.txt X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 20:49:08 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Constrained RESTful Environments WG of the IETF. Title : The Constrained RESTful Application Language (CoRAL) Authors : Christian Amsüss Thomas Fossati Filename : draft-ietf-core-coral-05.txt Pages : 48 Date : 2022-03-07 Abstract: The Constrained RESTful Application Language (CoRAL) defines a data model and interaction model as well as a compact serialization formats for the description of typed connections between resources on the Web ("links"), possible operations on such resources ("forms"), and simple resource metadata. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-coral/ There is also an HTML version available at: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-core-coral-05.html A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-core-coral-05 Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts From nobody Mon Mar 7 13:33:09 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 689653A15CF for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2022 13:32:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.906 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.906 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zrHDvES1ydFD for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2022 13:32:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from outpost1.zedat.fu-berlin.de (outpost1.zedat.fu-berlin.de [130.133.4.66]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E6ED63A11FE for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2022 13:32:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from inpost2.zedat.fu-berlin.de ([130.133.4.69]) by outpost.zedat.fu-berlin.de (Exim 4.94) for core@ietf.org with esmtps (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (envelope-from ) id 1nRKxk-0008C8-Uj; Mon, 07 Mar 2022 22:32:16 +0100 Received: from ip5b424bda.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de ([91.66.75.218] helo=[192.168.5.38]) by inpost2.zedat.fu-berlin.de (Exim 4.94) for core@ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (envelope-from ) id 1nRKxk-0048hW-Ks; Mon, 07 Mar 2022 22:32:16 +0100 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------gTfZSzvnoe7OwK001LRyF3FZ" Message-ID: <1b201e59-4c04-025c-c8f5-20270ec8ee72@fu-berlin.de> Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 22:32:15 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.6.2 References: <164668804149.3268.13405153308479622209@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Language: en-US To: "core@ietf.org" From: Martine Sophie Lenders In-Reply-To: <164668804149.3268.13405153308479622209@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <164668804149.3268.13405153308479622209@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Original-Sender: m.lenders@fu-berlin.de X-Originating-IP: 91.66.75.218 X-ZEDAT-Hint: A Archived-At: Subject: [core] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-lenders-dns-over-coap-03.txt X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 21:33:05 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------gTfZSzvnoe7OwK001LRyF3FZ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi! We have published a new version of our DNS over CoAP draft. The most important changes are: -  Clarify server selection to be out-of-band and define "core.dns" resource type in Section 3 and Section 8.2 - Add message manipulation considerations for DoC servers in Section 5.1 - Update Considerations for Unencrypted Use in Section 6 Klaus Hartke started a discussion about the direction of our current approach [1] which we currently deliberate about among the co-authors and will provide a response to it soon and will also pick up during our IETF 113 meeting presentation. Additional feedback is, of course, always welcome. Cheers, Martine [1] https://github.com/anr-bmbf-pivot/draft-dns-over-coap/issues/18 -------- Weitergeleitete Nachricht -------- Betreff: New Version Notification for draft-lenders-dns-over-coap-03.txt Datum: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 13:20:41 -0800 Von: internet-drafts@ietf.org An: Thomas C. Schmidt , Cenk Gündoğan , Christian Amsüss , Matthias Wählisch , Cenk Gundogan , Christian Amsuess , Martine Lenders , Martine Sophie Lenders , Matthias Waehlisch , Thomas Schmidt A new version of I-D, draft-lenders-dns-over-coap-03.txt has been successfully submitted by Martine Lenders and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-lenders-dns-over-coap Revision: 03 Title: DNS Queries over CoAP (DoC) Document date: 2022-03-07 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 14 URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-lenders-dns-over-coap-03.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lenders-dns-over-coap/ Html: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-lenders-dns-over-coap-03.html Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-lenders-dns-over-coap Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-lenders-dns-over-coap-03 Abstract: This document defines a protocol for sending DNS messages over the Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP). These CoAP messages are protected by DTLS-Secured CoAP (CoAPS) or Object Security for Constrained RESTful Environments (OSCORE) to provide encrypted DNS message exchange for constrained devices in the Internet of Things (IoT). The IETF Secretariat --------------gTfZSzvnoe7OwK001LRyF3FZ Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi!

We have published a new version of our DNS over CoAP draft. The most important changes are:

-  Clarify server selection to be out-of-band and define "core.dns" resource type in Section 3 and Section 8.2
- Add message manipulation considerations for DoC servers in Section 5.1
- Update Considerations for Unencrypted Use in Section 6

Klaus Hartke started a discussion about the direction of our current approach [1] which we currently deliberate about among the co-authors and will provide a response to it soon and will also pick up during our IETF 113 meeting presentation.

Additional feedback is, of course, always welcome.

Cheers,
Martine

[1] https://github.com/anr-bmbf-pivot/draft-dns-over-coap/issues/18

-------- Weitergeleitete Nachricht --------
Betreff: New Version Notification for draft-lenders-dns-over-coap-03.txt
Datum: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 13:20:41 -0800
Von: internet-drafts@ietf.org
An: Thomas C. Schmidt <t.schmidt@haw-hamburg.de>, Cenk Gündoğan <cenk.guendogan@haw-hamburg.de>, Christian Amsüss <christian@amsuess.com>, Matthias Wählisch <m.waehlisch@fu-berlin.de>, Cenk Gundogan <cenk.guendogan@haw-hamburg.de>, Christian Amsuess <christian@amsuess.com>, Martine Lenders <m.lenders@fu-berlin.de>, Martine Sophie Lenders <m.lenders@fu-berlin.de>, Matthias Waehlisch <m.waehlisch@fu-berlin.de>, Thomas Schmidt <t.schmidt@haw-hamburg.de>



A new version of I-D, draft-lenders-dns-over-coap-03.txt
has been successfully submitted by Martine Lenders and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name: draft-lenders-dns-over-coap
Revision: 03
Title: DNS Queries over CoAP (DoC)
Document date: 2022-03-07
Group: Individual Submission
Pages: 14
URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-lenders-dns-over-coap-03.txt
Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lenders-dns-over-coap/
Html: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-lenders-dns-over-coap-03.html
Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-lenders-dns-over-coap
Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-lenders-dns-over-coap-03

Abstract:
This document defines a protocol for sending DNS messages over the
Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP). These CoAP messages are
protected by DTLS-Secured CoAP (CoAPS) or Object Security for
Constrained RESTful Environments (OSCORE) to provide encrypted DNS
message exchange for constrained devices in the Internet of Things
(IoT).



The IETF Secretariat
--------------gTfZSzvnoe7OwK001LRyF3FZ-- From nobody Mon Mar 7 14:23:44 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietf.org Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 923FA3A0EFA; Mon, 7 Mar 2022 14:23:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: core@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.46.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: core@ietf.org Message-ID: <164669181354.9415.792188542891550207@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 14:23:33 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [core] I-D Action: draft-ietf-core-href-10.txt X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 22:23:34 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Constrained RESTful Environments WG of the IETF. Title : Constrained Resource Identifiers Authors : Carsten Bormann Henk Birkholz Filename : draft-ietf-core-href-10.txt Pages : 25 Date : 2022-03-07 Abstract: The Constrained Resource Identifier (CRI) is a complement to the Uniform Resource Identifier (URI) that serializes the URI components in Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR) instead of a sequence of characters. This simplifies parsing, comparison and reference resolution in environments with severe limitations on processing power, code size, and memory size. The present revision -10 of this draft contains an experimental addition that allows representing user information (https://alice@chains.example) in the URI authority component. This feature lacks test vectors and implementation experience at the time of writing and requires discussion. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-href/ There is also an HTML version available at: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-core-href-10.html A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-core-href-10 Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts From nobody Mon Mar 7 14:44:39 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 336173A1189; Mon, 7 Mar 2022 14:44:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RreXnyTSPmga; Mon, 7 Mar 2022 14:44:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E62D43A1113; Mon, 7 Mar 2022 14:44:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089ad4f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.173.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4KCD605lT9zDCdf; Mon, 7 Mar 2022 23:44:08 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <162625700369.11227.18056605126082947991@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 23:44:08 +0100 Cc: The IESG , draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor@ietf.org, core-chairs@ietf.org, "core@ietf.org WG (core@ietf.org)" , Marco Tiloca X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 668385848.139425-8b1001c490edae73a09daef4c9655da7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <15D47BED-3340-43F3-B29E-A6E4B760ED4D@tzi.org> References: <162625700369.11227.18056605126082947991@ietfa.amsl.com> To: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke=27s_No_Objection_on_draft-ietf?= =?utf-8?q?-core-yang-cbor-16=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 22:44:24 -0000 Hi =C3=89ric, a little blast from the past, as we haven=E2=80=99t replied to all the = COMMENTs yet: > On 2021-07-14, at 12:03, =C3=89ric Vyncke via Datatracker = wrote: >=20 > =C3=89ric Vyncke has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor-16: No Objection > [=E2=80=A6] > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > Thank you for the work put into this document. >=20 > Special thanks to Marco Tiloca for his shepherd's write-up, which = contains a > good summary of the WG consensus and the doc reviews. >=20 > Please find below 2 non-blocking COMMENT points. >=20 > I hope that this helps to improve the document, >=20 > Regards, >=20 > -=C3=A9ric >=20 > =3D=3D COMMENTS =3D=3D >=20 > A generic comment about the operational issue of supporting TWO ways = to encode > a data node: either normal string or the SID. This means that either = there is a > 2-way negotiation mechanism or that all CORE nodes must support both = encoding > and have agreed on a common SID mappings. Section 7 only briefly = touches this > issue with "Content-Type" but not with "Accept". Section 7 actually uses the term Content-Type as the combination of a = media-type name and optional parameters, as it is used in RFC 9193-to-be = (which is waiting for HTTP to be published). So I don=E2=80=99t see a need to mention Accept here; readers versed in = content-types (media types) should already see the connection. >=20 > -- Section 4.2.1 & 4.4.1 -- > BTW, I like the idea of encoding a container with sequential SID and = the delta > CBOR encoding ;-) Thank you! Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Mar 7 14:52:05 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 670913A10D0; Mon, 7 Mar 2022 14:51:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pmGVquyPQh8S; Mon, 7 Mar 2022 14:51:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4C673A11A7; Mon, 7 Mar 2022 14:51:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089ad4f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.173.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4KCDGh04DjzDCc2; Mon, 7 Mar 2022 23:51:39 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <162633062845.15354.15922725362070438996@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 23:51:39 +0100 Cc: The IESG , draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor@ietf.org, core-chairs@ietf.org, core@ietf.org, Marco Tiloca X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 668386299.402666-1c1e5b6fb4b6d954627a0b132ed269e6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <344C0AF7-613C-4F9D-AD79-DE0E03C038AA@tzi.org> References: <162633062845.15354.15922725362070438996@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Murray Kucherawy X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] Murray Kucherawy's No Objection on draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor-16: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 22:51:55 -0000 Hi Murray, A little blast from the past... > On 2021-07-15, at 08:30, Murray Kucherawy via Datatracker = wrote: >=20 > Murray Kucherawy has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor-16: No Objection > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > I support Benjamin's second DISCUSS point. We actually have disentangled the two drafts now so they no longer = depend on each other. I=E2=80=99m waiting for input from Ben and Rob = whether we can go ahead with this. > Section 2 imports the term "schema tree" which is not used in this = document. Fixed in d7ce4b5. > In Section 9.1, "Required Parameters" should be "N/A", not "none". = See RFC > 6838 Section 5.6. Fixed in aeff3f1 > The layout of the table in Section 9.3 is a little confusing. For = instance, > the first two rows are collectively describing a single entry, I = think, but > that's not obvious given there are horizontal lines between them. It now looks great; fixed in 99bd7ab Apart from the disentangling, these all are in = draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor-18 already; we just didn=E2=80=99t get around = to answering your email. 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EdVW-53IQAJm; Tue, 8 Mar 2022 08:54:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 59D073A16D4; Tue, 8 Mar 2022 08:54:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089ad4f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.173.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4KChJ35N9bzDCjm; Tue, 8 Mar 2022 17:54:27 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <9D09F96B-11B9-49A6-94B0-0A8FB1330844@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 17:54:27 +0100 Cc: The IESG , "draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor@ietf.org" , "core-chairs@ietf.org" , "core@ietf.org WG (core@ietf.org)" , Marco Tiloca X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 668451267.036399-541e599147c4b38ae180421275a901db Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8775288D-E960-4CA3-982D-F1E9B1EC8EDA@tzi.org> References: <162625700369.11227.18056605126082947991@ietfa.amsl.com> <15D47BED-3340-43F3-B29E-A6E4B760ED4D@tzi.org> <9D09F96B-11B9-49A6-94B0-0A8FB1330844@cisco.com> To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke=27s_No_Objection_on_draft-ietf?= =?utf-8?q?-core-yang-cbor-16=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2022 16:54:37 -0000 Hi =C3=89ric, good to know that you find COMMENT important. So I did write a new paragraph for the end of Section 7. https://github.com/core-wg/yang-cbor/commit/35733bc Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Tue Mar 8 09:49:36 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2792D3A011F; Tue, 8 Mar 2022 09:49:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.605 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.605 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=HeZqytFY; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) 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filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEOEo4cV326Z7GypVg7iZktA5Y2kMFAmIozH8FAwAAAAAACgkQ7iZktA5Y2kOU Ggf/S3Qli1s9GRSpx2r4HrHYwgSwsSivo8RBuR3dXTqpkUTATMn5eCcqE3xpFTjmD8aYCYtSoH2V hUrdqy2e9pUT0Rv1fu0l+LnJnaYqnGgyTzrwLmEcmrYrgCkRgncoK/R3c2KuHYhHE0Ddz/8qEH46 fDxnJDa8KwN1A0mnZAhj5Qxoaqlfzl/WePQoVQUaK5VyWcpPonHRXmErmASxZ/tiENkG+j8vlVXo XsBpHr8w2TUelUwWZ3PG08nipyb9KlaJkhkYTVKBJhFTCn+w4CrXAGtB30+CkUpRwo//MDk+ocJr /qI6tPnHaptydy2cjClQ8wCOlXm6O2tod8cvqcOizg== =XBNl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------lpySSIH3cwNHzEDkcbEGeQEo-- From nobody Wed Mar 9 15:00:28 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 574B43A11CD for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2022 15:00:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.112 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.112 tagged_above=-999 required=5 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wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEOEo4cV326Z7GypVg7iZktA5Y2kMFAmIrdeMFAwAAAAAACgkQ7iZktA5Y2kNT ywf/Xnj1E5zLJ+TjWaybMh7fBJQZmN+38z37CMBth+KONL5mvkfCjupmjn05ZqnJcCYS/s6prRvE YzYLKjKqg/FXHf4NIc1vhxoYVl3mL9d259rX9Pgzc80AA/N/LMq+Y3OHLPUz+IDBMbCfFTrssabg UhbI0yOO/lngvOnimWLWypXaH59N2Ae7w8gKgcTQg4TgnF86WmlW9iDWq0k1EPAlf6/ySWc0VW93 qfUonphx9NxtagQ6B645NKynBXd3yJUV5bCXvcFygxsfg3pFO8Uii7guZ//5mSJNqrXDdXm5LxHD OYTRMkAN+YBSzy2Ev9c+4IstpMSHoHLaW0OyDXhNYg== =rTNG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------07IUhzQnFdMGCX8jeP6pOKA0-- From nobody Mon Mar 14 11:08:47 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietf.org Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5F073A1010; Mon, 14 Mar 2022 11:08:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IESG Secretary To: "IETF-Announce" Cc: core@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.46.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <164728132545.7729.16055041585866718878@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 11:08:45 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [core] Constrained RESTful Environments (core) WG Virtual Meeting: 2022-04-27 X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 18:08:46 -0000 The Constrained RESTful Environments (core) WG will hold a virtual interim meeting on 2022-04-27 from 16:00 to 17:30 Europe/Stockholm (14:00 to 15:30 UTC). Agenda: (No agenda submitted) Information about remote participation: https://meetings.conf.meetecho.com/interim/?short=079d3466-b1ef-437c-b8b5-cc947e87f70d From nobody Mon Mar 14 11:09:51 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietf.org Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 524453A11C9; Mon, 14 Mar 2022 11:09:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IESG Secretary To: "IETF-Announce" Cc: core@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.46.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <164728138122.7747.1250926851460578498@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 11:09:41 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [core] Constrained RESTful Environments (core) WG Virtual Meeting: 2022-05-11 X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 18:09:49 -0000 The Constrained RESTful Environments (core) WG will hold a virtual interim meeting on 2022-05-11 from 16:00 to 17:30 Europe/Stockholm (14:00 to 15:30 UTC). Agenda: (No agenda submitted) Information about remote participation: https://meetings.conf.meetecho.com/interim/?short=32d2bad8-f2fa-4fa2-8818-4d037e0cd2c4 From nobody Mon Mar 14 11:10:08 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietf.org Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 128063A11C3; Mon, 14 Mar 2022 11:09:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IESG Secretary To: "IETF-Announce" Cc: core@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.46.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <164728139803.8420.9386956169062386215@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 11:09:58 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [core] Constrained RESTful Environments (core) WG Virtual Meeting: 2022-05-25 X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 18:10:07 -0000 The Constrained RESTful Environments (core) WG will hold a virtual interim meeting on 2022-05-25 from 16:00 to 17:30 Europe/Stockholm (14:00 to 15:30 UTC). Agenda: (No agenda submitted) Information about remote participation: https://meetings.conf.meetecho.com/interim/?short=46d8f147-a420-4ee6-9786-b535fb563435 From nobody Mon Mar 14 11:12:07 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietf.org Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA6D13A1206; Mon, 14 Mar 2022 11:11:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IESG Secretary To: "IETF-Announce" Cc: core@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.46.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <164728151375.7724.17904616353515992239@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 11:11:53 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [core] Constrained RESTful Environments (core) WG Virtual Meeting: 2022-06-08 X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 18:12:02 -0000 The Constrained RESTful Environments (core) WG will hold a virtual interim meeting on 2022-06-08 from 16:00 to 17:30 Europe/Stockholm (14:00 to 15:30 UTC). Agenda: (No agenda submitted) Information about remote participation: https://meetings.conf.meetecho.com/interim/?short=08a866db-d268-4b9e-bead-4a9f0c3fed22 From nobody Mon Mar 14 11:12:26 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietf.org Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B7EB3A109E; Mon, 14 Mar 2022 11:12:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IESG Secretary To: "IETF-Announce" Cc: core@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.46.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <164728152911.7801.12217837891801142186@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 11:12:09 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [core] Constrained RESTful Environments (core) WG Virtual Meeting: 2022-06-22 X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 18:12:17 -0000 The Constrained RESTful Environments (core) WG will hold a virtual interim meeting on 2022-06-22 from 16:00 to 17:30 Europe/Stockholm (14:00 to 15:30 UTC). Agenda: (No agenda submitted) Information about remote participation: https://meetings.conf.meetecho.com/interim/?short=77630d7e-3863-4885-81f7-51e7867407c9 From nobody Mon Mar 14 11:12:36 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietf.org Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1369C3A1744; Mon, 14 Mar 2022 11:12:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IESG Secretary To: "IETF-Announce" Cc: core@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.46.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <164728154403.7720.17637132074990831043@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 11:12:24 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [core] Constrained RESTful Environments (core) WG Virtual Meeting: 2022-07-06 X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 18:12:32 -0000 The Constrained RESTful Environments (core) WG will hold a virtual interim meeting on 2022-07-06 from 16:00 to 17:30 Europe/Stockholm (14:00 to 15:30 UTC). 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DQo+Pg0KPj4gQ2lhbyENCg0KLS0gDQpNYXJjbyBUaWxvY2ENClBoLkQuLCBTZW5pb3IgUmVzZWFy Y2hlcg0KDQpEaXZpc2lvbjogRGlnaXRhbCBTeXN0ZW1zDQpEZXBhcnRtZW50OiBDb21wdXRlciBT Y2llbmNlDQpVbml0OiBDeWJlcnNlY3VyaXR5DQoNClJJU0UgUmVzZWFyY2ggSW5zdGl0dXRlcyBv ZiBTd2VkZW4NCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LnJpLnNlDQoNClBob25lOiArNDYgKDApNzAgNjAgNDYgNTAx DQpJc2Fmam9yZHNnYXRhbiAyMiAvIEtpc3RhZ8OlbmdlbiAxNg0KU0UtMTY0IDQwIEtpc3RhIChT d2VkZW4pDQoNCg== From nobody Sun Mar 20 10:20:20 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietf.org Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCEDD3A1272; Sun, 20 Mar 2022 10:20:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: core@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.46.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: core@ietf.org Message-ID: <164779681772.16669.17192231545801904156@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 10:20:17 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [core] I-D Action: draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor-19.txt X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 17:20:18 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Constrained RESTful Environments WG of the IETF. Title : CBOR Encoding of Data Modeled with YANG Authors : Michel Veillette Ivaylo Petrov Alexander Pelov Carsten Bormann Michael Richardson Filename : draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor-19.txt Pages : 50 Date : 2022-03-20 Abstract: Based on the Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 8949), this document defines encoding rules for representing configuration data, state data, parameters and results of Remote Procedure Call (RPC) operations or actions, and notifications, defined using YANG (RFC 7950). The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor/ There is also an HTML version available at: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor-19.html A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor-19 Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts From nobody Sun Mar 20 10:22:57 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F5973A126B; Sun, 20 Mar 2022 10:22:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.906 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.906 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HhOWYbwjoPXh; Sun, 20 Mar 2022 10:22:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6581F3A1250; Sun, 20 Mar 2022 10:22:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089ad4f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.173.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4KM4Lt3d3MzDCcJ; Sun, 20 Mar 2022 18:22:30 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <162621559930.12938.14682203115579801462@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 18:22:30 +0100 Cc: The IESG , draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor@ietf.org, core-chairs@ietf.org, core@ietf.org, Marco Tiloca X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 669489750.069975-26b7500e417f6af47a3c9ec1ed709e43 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <162621559930.12938.14682203115579801462@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Benjamin Kaduk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor-17: (COMMENT) X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 17:22:39 -0000 Hi Ben, It seems you didn=E2=80=99t send email with these comments we plucked = out of the datatracker. However, we want to make sure we address all of = them, so here is a reply you can read or just file :-) The comments in this mail, together with the comments of other ADs, led = to draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor-19. Since we narrowly missed to submit = this before the IETF-113 deadline, we only submitted this today. =20 -19 is intended to address all outstanding COMMENTS. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor/ https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor-19.html https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-core-yang-cbor-19.txt > Thanks for addressing my previous Discuss points! As I mentioned off-list, we actually have disentangled the two drafts = core-yang-cbor and core-sid now so they no longer depend on each other. = Since moving to a mutual normative reference was one of your DISCUSS = points, I feel I need to alert you to this (as I already did in an = earlier private mail). > With respect to my previous point (1) (relating to the handling of the > 'bits' type if there are trailing bytes with no bits set), it now = looks > like a recipient should be able to handle such things using the normal > rules without any issue, and given that, rejecting them doesn't make > much sense. Do we want to say anything about how no special handling > on the recipient is needed in order to do the right thing if such zero > bytes are generated in violation of the requirement? Added a =E2=80=9CMAY accept=E2=80=9D in 0ffcde6 > One new nit in the -17, in Section 7: >=20 > This media-type represents a CBOR YANG document containing one or > multiple data node values. If the media-type parameter id is > present, depending its value, each data node is identified by its > associated namespace qualified name as defined in Section 3.3 > (id=3Dname), by its associated YANG SID (represented as a SID delta = or > via tag 47) as defined in Section 3.2 (id=3Dsid). If no id = parameter > is given, both forms may be present. >=20 > This used to be a three-item list, but the last item is now a = standalone > sentence. That means that we need to replace the comma with the = conjunction > "or". We chose =E2=80=9C, or" in 716a206 > The remainder of this comment section was generated by taking my = comments > from the -16 and attempting to remove those that no longer apply. > It is possible I missed a change and erroneously left in some comments > that no longer apply. >=20 > I can see why it would not make sense to do so in this document that = is > so tightly integrated with CORECONF, but is there any work to produce = a > CBOR encoding for the "structure" extension from RFC 8791? We believe that should now be covered; see the various occurrences of = =E2=80=9CYANG data structure=E2=80=9D (which is an RFC 8791 term). > As a general note, I did not look particularly carefully at the = example > CBOR encodings, on the assumption that they were automatically = generated > as part of the document production process. >=20 > Section 4.2 >=20 > This specification supports two types of CBOR keys; SID as defined = in > Section 3.2 and names as defined in Section 3.3. >=20 > I suggest making an explicit statement about whether the two types of > keys can be comingled in the same container/etc, possibly just by > forward-reference to the media-type parameter. Added 8d08538 > Section 4.2.2 >=20 > [...] A namespace-qualified name > MUST be used each time the namespace of a schema node and its parent > differ. In all other cases, the simple form of the name MUST be > used. [...] >=20 > We have a similar statement in =C2=A73.3 that is only "the simple form = of the > name SHOULD be used" for the latter sentence. It's not entirely clear > to me what causes the strength of requirement to be different between > the two cases. The one in 3.3 also should be a MUST. Changed in def18b4 > Section 4.6 >=20 > Do we want to explicitly acknowledge the mismatch between the "xml" in > "anyxml" and the actual CBOR contents? See the other ADs' comments about this :-) Added comment in 65dc7c0 > Section 5.2 >=20 > The yang-data extensions encoded using names are carried in a CBOR > map containing a single item pair. The key of this item is set to > the namespace qualified name of the yang-data extension container; > the value is set to the CBOR encoding of this container as defined = in > Section 3.3. >=20 > I'm not sure if this is a nit or not, so putting it here: is =C2=A73.3 = the > right reference for the encoding of the container (vs. =C2=A74.2)? 4.2 certainly is better here. Fixed in 62f42c2 > Section 6.6 >=20 > Requiring the string form for enumeration constants in a union seems > like a big loss on encoded size. Is it worth putting some discussion = in > the document (or an appendix thereto) about why other options like > tagged integer are not usable? (Similar discussion might be relevant > for the bits-in-union case.) It is hard to discuss this without saying bad things about the way this = has defined in YANG, and my mother has told me to only ever say good = things about other people. > While it's banal, we might also put an example of the integer-encoded > form (as used by non-union contexts) so that the tagged-text-string > example isn't the only one given. Passing on this for now=E2=80=A6 >=20 > Leafs of type enumeration MUST be encoded using a CBOR unsigned > integer (major type 0) or CBOR negative integer (major type 1), > depending on the actual value. [...] >=20 > I think we should also mention the tagged-text-string case here. Yes: a0be5db > Section 6.7 >=20 > In a number of cases the array would only need to have one element - > a byte string with a small number of bytes inside. For this case, = it > is expected to omit the array element and have only the byte array > that would have been inside. [...] >=20 > I think it is actually required (not just "expected") based on some > later text. Indeed, 7b2970b > Section 6.10, 6.13 >=20 > I strongly encourage explicit mention of the use of a CBOR tag when > these elements appear inside a union, analogous to the text in =C2=A76.6= and > 6.7. The list in =C2=A76.12 is pretty easy to miss, and the word = "tag" does > not appear at all in these sections. Good point; addressed in fa37812 > Section 7 >=20 > This specification defines the media-type "application/yang- > data+cbor", which can be used without parameters or with the > parameter "id=3Dname" or "id=3Dsid". >=20 > I think the media-type discussions should refer to the "id" parameter > and the two possible values for that parameter ('=3D' is not allowed = in a > parameter name). > [ed. I was thinking something like "with the 'id' parameter set to > either 'name' or 'sid'" in this paragraph. The subsequent paragraphs > look to be treated well in the -17; thanks!] >=20 Right! Now 5f4e316 > This media-type represents a CBOR YANG document containing one or > multiple data node values. Depending on the presence and value of > the media-type parameter "id", each data node is identified by its > associated namespace qualified name as defined in Section 3.3 > ("id=3Dname"), by its associated YANG SID (represented as a SID = delta > or via tag 47) as defined in Section 3.2 ("id=3Dsid"), or either of > these (no "id" parameter given). >=20 > I think that for identityref and instance-identifier we don't use the > tag 47 for absolute (non-delta) SIDs, at least outside of a union > context. I just turned this into an example: 56d8956 > Section 8 >=20 > It might be worth mentioning that when the 'id' parameter to the media > type is used, it's important to properly reject identifiers of the = other > type, to avoid scenarios where different implementations interpret a > given content in different ways. Good point, I stole your text for 2c12398 > Section 10.1 >=20 > It's not clear to me that RFC 6241 needs to be classified as = normative, > at least based on the one place in the text where we reference it. It is now informative. > NITS >=20 > Section 2 >=20 > * child: A schema node defined as a child node of a container, a > list, a case, a notification, an RPC input, an RPC output, an > action input, or an action output. >=20 > Is this enumeration of "parent" node types guaranteed to be fixed for > all time, or should we consider a more generic wording to describe it? > (Likewise for the "parent" definition.) It is already wrong, as it doesn=E2=80=99t mention structures etc. Fortunately, we already got rid of the definition when defining = =E2=80=9Crepresentation nodes=E2=80=9D... > Section 4 >=20 > The example from RFC 7317 may have truncated a little too much of the > content; "mandatory true" for choice transport, the "inet:" prefix for > "type inet:host" and "inet:port-number", etc. I assume this is about 4.4? Changing that would probably also change the YANG-CBOR. Instead, I added =E2=80=9Csimplified=E2=80=9D=E2=80=A6 39d5c73 >=20 > Section 4.5 >=20 > * CBOR map keys of any inner schema nodes MUST be set to valid > deltas or names. >=20 > * The CBOR array MUST contain either unique scalar values (as a > leaf-list, see Section 4.3), or maps (as a list, see Section = 4.4). >=20 > I think a parallel list structure would be "CBOR arrays MUST contain > [...]". >=20 > * CBOR map values MUST follow the encoding rules of one of the > datatypes listed in Section 4. >=20 > (A recursive reference, though I mostly trust the reader to pick out = the > relevant subsections.) CBOR people are used to recursion (in contrast to YANG people :-) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Mar 21 13:51:22 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C712C3A1B23 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 13:51:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=armh.onmicrosoft.com header.b=QwnVLJ/L; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=armh.onmicrosoft.com header.b=QwnVLJ/L Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C10Oxji_PvzT for ; 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X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 20:51:20 -0000 --_000_DB9PR08MB6524297453A3393064D7B4739C169DB9PR08MB6524eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Coming back to this thread to give you an update on the current (draft) pro= posal: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-uta-tls13-iot-profile-04.html#se= ction-18 Please have a look and let us know what you think. Thanks! From: core on behalf of Carsten Bormann Date: Wednesday, 20 October 2021 at 15:47 To: Thomas Fossati Cc: core@ietf.org WG Subject: Re: [core] time to start the deprecation of CCM_8? On 2021-10-20, at 16:35, Thomas Fossati wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 1:41 PM Carsten Bormann wrote: >> On 20. Oct 2021, at 11:44, Thomas Fossati wrote: >>> >>> Not sure I understand this comment: irrespective of what openssl does, >>> what other chiphersuite provides 8-byte auth tags? If the requirement >>> is an 8-byte auth tag version you are left with no other choice than >>> CCM. Is this your requirement? >> >> If we want to replace CCM_8, it would be natural to choose something tha= t has similar performance characteristics. > > By performance characteristic I assume you refer to the wire image > size, correct? If so, that's exactly the problem: the small tag size > (which is the major factor in the size reduction) is what makes CCM_8 > a bad choice unless > ${insert_long_and_complicated_list_of_considerations}. However, I > strongly suspect we'd end up in a similar situation with regards to > the integrity bounds if we hypothetically came up with a ciphersuite > based on a different primitive and/or mode but sporting similarly > sized auth tags. So ... (continues below) The NIST document that was earlier referenced in this thread does deprecate= d 32-bit tags (no wonder), but does leave room for 64-bit tags. So I was assuming they are still in the realm of consideration. >> I can imagine openssl doesn=92t have a 64-bit authenticator option; mayb= e we need to cough up one. > > (I guess s/openssl/TLS/ ?) > > ... if you mean defining a new XYZ_8 ciphersuite I'd rather stay with > CCM_8 since the analysis is already done and implementations exist. Which works for me :-) I=92d like to have John=92s numbers written up somewhere so we can point to= the usage limitations. >> (Or we could leave CCM_8 in place, i.e., deprecate it slightly less.) > > By "deprecating slightly less" what do you mean exactly? Is it: > * MAY CCM_8 if ... > instead of > * SHOULD NOT CCM_8 unless ... > and > * MUST/SHOULD XYZ I used wishy-washy words because I=92m not sure of the language either. Instead of carefully selecting a word of deprecation, I think we should be = explicit about the remaining area of application. We can then put in a str= ong word for applications outside that boundary. * MUST NOT be used with manually keyed environments * SHOULD only be used where the performance difference between 8-byte and 1= 6-byte tags is a deciding factor in the viability of the application, and w= here the somewhat increased risk (see table 1) is acceptable. * MUST be used with a mechanism that keeps visibility over whether the usag= e limits are being reached. (Well, 1 follows from 3, but better be explicit.) Insert your requirements (and table 1) here... Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten _______________________________________________ core mailing list core@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. --_000_DB9PR08MB6524297453A3393064D7B4739C169DB9PR08MB6524eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all,

 

Coming back to this thread to give you an update on the current (dr= aft) proposal:

 

https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-uta= -tls13-iot-profile-04.html#section-18

 

Please have a look and let us know what you think.

 

Thanks!

 

From: core <core-bounces@ietf.org> on be= half of Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
Date: Wednesday, 20 October 2021 at 15:47
To: Thomas Fossati <tho.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: core@ietf.org WG <core@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [core] time to start the deprecation of CCM_8?

On 2021-10-20, at 16:35, Thomas Fossati <tho.ietf@gmail.com>= ; wrote:
>
> On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 1:41 PM Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> w= rote:
>> On 20. Oct 2021, at 11:44, Thomas Fossati <tho.ietf@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:
>>>
>>> Not sure I understand this comment: irrespective of what opens= sl does,
>>> what other chiphersuite provides 8-byte auth tags?  If th= e requirement
>>> is an 8-byte auth tag version you are left with no other choic= e than
>>> CCM.  Is this your requirement?
>>
>> If we want to replace CCM_8, it would be natural to choose somethi= ng that has similar performance characteristics.
>
> By performance characteristic I assume you refer to the wire image
> size, correct?  If so, that's exactly the problem: the small tag = size
> (which is the major factor in the size reduction) is what makes CCM_8<= br> > a bad choice unless
> ${insert_long_and_complicated_list_of_considerations}.  However, = I
> strongly suspect we'd end up in a similar situation with regards to > the integrity bounds if we hypothetically came up with a ciphersuite > based on a different primitive and/or mode but sporting similarly
> sized auth tags. So ... (continues below)

The NIST document that was earlier referenced in this thread does deprecate= d 32-bit tags (no wonder), but does leave room for 64-bit tags.
So I was assuming they are still in the realm of consideration.

>> I can imagine openssl doesn=92t have a 64-bit authenticator option= ; maybe we need to cough up one.
>
> (I guess s/openssl/TLS/ ?)
>
> ... if you mean defining a new XYZ_8 ciphersuite I'd rather stay with<= br> > CCM_8 since the analysis is already done and implementations exist.
Which works for me :-)
I=92d like to have John=92s numbers written up somewhere so we can point to= the usage limitations.

>> (Or we could leave CCM_8 in place, i.e., deprecate it slightly les= s.)
>
> By "deprecating slightly less" what do you mean exactly?&nbs= p; Is it:
> * MAY CCM_8 if ...
> instead of
> * SHOULD NOT CCM_8 unless ...
> and
> * MUST/SHOULD XYZ

I used wishy-washy words because I=92m not sure of the language either.
Instead of carefully selecting a word of deprecation, I think we should be = explicit about the remaining area of application.  We can then put in = a strong word for applications outside that boundary.

* MUST NOT be used with manually keyed environments
* SHOULD only be used where the performance difference between 8-byte and 1= 6-byte tags is a deciding factor in the viability of the application, and w= here the somewhat increased risk (see table 1) is acceptable.
* MUST be used with a mechanism that keeps visibility over whether the usag= e limits are being reached.

(Well, 1 follows from 3, but better be explicit.)
Insert your requirements (and table 1) here...

Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten

_______________________________________________
core mailing list
core@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core=

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. --_000_DB9PR08MB6524297453A3393064D7B4739C169DB9PR08MB6524eurp_-- From nobody Mon Mar 21 14:32:10 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08B923A1B4D for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 14:32:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.109 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.109 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iki.fi Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5bi90o0FgRt8 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 14:32:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lahtoruutu.iki.fi (lahtoruutu.iki.fi [IPv6:2a0b:5c81:1c1::37]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F3A053A1B3E for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 14:32:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fireball.acr.fi (fireball.kivinen.iki.fi [IPv6:2001:1bc8:100d::2]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: kivinen@iki.fi) by lahtoruutu.iki.fi (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 45B721B0029D; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 23:31:59 +0200 (EET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=iki.fi; s=lahtoruutu; t=1647898319; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=CRECPm93QtFnyDiMPbtiXTWAi2odg5O1vJ5ntYmcyVY=; b=U7Z8SvTjf/gvduKKbPPLu1jQnGn+k8QJzsTWOoi0f/0rnFM463ZsIvT+7G3TjBCA8sHKKD z2r1hbcYYrdSt3srtkwkXSs1u4sMjkhuu/fQaoO5e9J3gmMb/OrrCcAlvfAzDr5PG+vSqf mLyQO6VKzHCWWNspSPACiRx6RGZIDtdfK+wbOpdRqbvBxq2Tjr7ST/pjZ9gvqKnmLLQBRw 96amozwm8/sAS7WvPEB+Sr/2UJvUlR54+ovv2glRb4Th3gqnLgwLcIdEORKww7NMaIveSX 2kh50+2DPwkoF30dtricNnAxmHK0RNaIoJEIn0W9cJ7GZMgLe8a4aIKq8gyVNg== Received: by fireball.acr.fi (Postfix, from userid 15204) id 3427325C12EA; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 23:31:58 +0200 (EET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <25144.61133.932882.915897@fireball.acr.fi> Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 23:31:57 +0200 From: Tero Kivinen To: Thomas Fossati Cc: Carsten Bormann , Thomas Fossati , "core\@ietf.org WG" In-Reply-To: References: <081C80A8-5317-4DB1-BBCB-21654AE6F444@tzi.org> <20585.1634642284@localhost> <4603B5A0-8179-40D7-9335-52D9FD59BAE8@tzi.org> <3B735512-CAAE-433E-BBF1-446088E3FFD2@tzi.org> <166EBE02-113B-4054-9B99-043EC31A68FB@tzi.org> <569437DE-A7A4-497F-8427-627A7E137F92@tzi.org> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 26.3 (x86_64--netbsd) X-Edit-Time: 10 min X-Total-Time: 17 min ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; ORIGINATING; auth=pass smtp.auth=kivinen@iki.fi smtp.mailfrom=kivinen@iki.fi ARC-Seal: i=1; s=lahtoruutu; d=iki.fi; t=1647898319; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=r5dODS1vSOmgtdte52OFfuyioq8lu0aE6mi2VTChSP+CZQQGUedOip6yoeEsnwNgsRmyOD 5JNrx+8d4HjtKwfuX+NHYwCkcBP4VzJegajhIc9n7lIknAsCkGr+Q8UX4Y+vM3H+o8kQYJ LB9kbUEoCqho9PJNct3qJ36egw857w4e+NM5hDMkqCGwVnhWOMUdG6nBVmjS3Ei0BkPp7m d3KVizp72fGMekEOmzhPV2Sdx3DqJacH9iKlPdlGGmWIPmJgNJILZ9hPtu8wGvlkvwNTi6 LxIEEHQ0t+/gB+CxDXhLvbnBxl6bzUSiMu32ZuULe/pACHyRUQr4Dibot6EJCw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=iki.fi; s=lahtoruutu; t=1647898319; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=CRECPm93QtFnyDiMPbtiXTWAi2odg5O1vJ5ntYmcyVY=; b=GGPyA+uEVYYkXX+iKpLKyod1ECEHDvjoCE+0EJJLPb4Yy4MgVp++ddyoeXXASn0nwHyjSJ /i5dZ72IS8C0d+jkdiLTykktep7Cxj2DnnLFhuIjT6tCjQCGqEAzxuFcp2KR7iU+IUqC1o POx/PGXDTgACOWV1GYVJ9DRo+WUQJvJ96GIjtNtLUdJyAWgOr6ktTOUe9rPUK48htJnssX ++TastVqZ5VFrR8z4ZMhum220vNRfr5ZzgomTHArj7LYfHvtHHu9pR5Lkfs/ItWCWv9mkw vR3LpumPmPY8sHOf8ukrbxScz2+5ZwD/L5GDpl0vgVI61Xb4+lgXE8zugnBFdg== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] time to start the deprecation of CCM_8? X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 21:32:08 -0000 Thomas Fossati writes: > Coming back to this thread to give you an update on the current (draft) > proposal: > > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-uta-tls13-iot-profile-04.html#section-18 > > Please have a look and let us know what you think. I have not been able to parse that CFRG draft properly to really understand what their limits mean. I.e. the assumptions there seem to be for normal internet traffic, but if we assume IoT use case, for example IEEE 802.15.4, and use say maximum packet size of 127 bytes (normal packet size is most likely something like 80-100 bytes), maximum data rate of 250 kBit/s, i.e. about 300-400 packets / second, how long would one of those forgery attempts take in seconds? I would assume that on environments which are not that constrained (i.e., has packet sizes over 0.5 kB, or speed over 1MBit/s) do not need to save bytes and use CCM_8. Those environments can (and should) use normal CCM, so only the very constrained devices shuld be of interest when talking about CCM_8. -- kivinen@iki.fi From nobody Tue Mar 22 02:18:59 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CABA43A0D1F for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 02:18:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.106 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.106 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wlF866BNPfLZ for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 02:18:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 06AFE3A0D12 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 02:18:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1647940680; bh=rDD9xLnYTlnfgiBEV9jTNkcxXMPCRj6+8vyvsVOgaL0=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=OhH5DGB3I/BWFtZtfOTAJWhlwJ90TvqVMn1Io/XeImrSBTkNqVFS45VnWAQUFmOcy 3BdWPu3USb+0xHz7PMiFIa6HxB4aRlQY5FbrEPTIBlFhZEBI1+4l+buz3S2vTZqD2a 6ICdbDF0MvyIGvKVpTKam+JpDPHJ5ebMnEkrt6Jg= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.10] ([5.146.193.130]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MWASY-1nZR893v6w-00XeSP; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 10:17:59 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 10:17:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Content-Language: de-AT-frami To: Tero Kivinen Cc: "core@ietf.org WG" , Thomas Fossati References: <081C80A8-5317-4DB1-BBCB-21654AE6F444@tzi.org> <20585.1634642284@localhost> <4603B5A0-8179-40D7-9335-52D9FD59BAE8@tzi.org> <3B735512-CAAE-433E-BBF1-446088E3FFD2@tzi.org> <166EBE02-113B-4054-9B99-043EC31A68FB@tzi.org> <569437DE-A7A4-497F-8427-627A7E137F92@tzi.org> <25144.61133.932882.915897@fireball.acr.fi> From: Achim Kraus In-Reply-To: <25144.61133.932882.915897@fireball.acr.fi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:AAKxIksHPEhp5pjzTLfchHlWwv94F8xLNawlzo9uOtYohlhFZ0E gDkTiqgaMD3sk2eqP+dMWKBNGZLtbVxR64xQwABcG1q2+aN1rFd4ieQb7l7OfGjOQT8Yp2a YcmFaXag7cOVB+QVgv3rAN0oemgbPecbpi4LlQwZ/tVg2Uj2cW+UaL1akl0JvxZtjr2+1ZO JBqU8gPSX/CHiytbW2xoQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:Ob/kR3A2sZE=:i3q9l5Ps3o7nxwPeC1O6Vf bpmpBZXjBteol2uDGAE4+u03BkO0BnasDBufjR04TKcWcL/sJGxpS6zpIBJmmF/MzjW6cOcu3 iXeU/MXyfzYWwck/enjIWXo56IqYyU0cwGJ4Ahn5w1uc7AhEViNgAa8fIBaw3bLsNPJYN2nCA EAZLKeNNELmANfIrcQ4XnpiDjBJRp9wufCvaLeK/zenSrp0QAPPfyk5BDUyQLQMmP+5HzhZ0j kfqPh8tvE9E5hhLim5+tvfFMUPC5zuhBkdlEISaS5xpVu4I9d5Yde8VcbZHCXvKH84MGtVWyT FsbiDU86Q4icRgsjBJ8WyK1HVcZJQyk25rQI6klaBLxV0obEtJkZC6i2p+duc0dZ6KZmWd9nB YgJKxTAwZxtWKi1waUzy4xDjdZQ5JuZ1ntrvcrYXCLOHgAvdAmSFDHPQHf3eT4zsJRzGnsS2h IJxup4itxHBhgOAN2h9zrrqpLjjhiaiQXTtYYZm5iGw25Gu73NiTS9VZeMDaHd6Br3aL3RzHZ 7d2QCoRfOAk0dtrN6CQSRvZUI1zN/2MM5fG/2kT/d6ckKQi4tQIVGXtPEhjE71KUUv+41DT3C qfzdTNRtf14FHuuZ/SYgZbNKGbkSOciq3qYBfgDX97d/GS/JMCP3mbO3am0xMYua+rYCoMCFd ZCSpa1d8PqUKp52ce0JH3fGn5fcfgLCGuaF4giHNvMzR1DOz5uOyFqL+AR9dMCeYX6YQwqFud aMGocuf9j7P6MfSzxw0ibn2q9a90Mdpk/SeusEcKOp4SbnUC/4Z9So1sU9FKtpNYB7FUsp8GK s1vL8ByBKhcRgpvncWqKT6JwqRDMrgdZLwW98LwUB8HM4eeyMnWHFHCfcwK+H7UnIOR756Dev kyHWOq7Yoj+oK4OaaxnbI2v5yoe4PIePwTGq+0QH9+j4B6DEqKWt0ii4B2DDbj0jbXfbLG0wi lSA8uARBotnOrP0m8CehSTWDGz1raGcLNEHKWI7bOxe1S1Q9cq3ftKN37aGgpXcADuXdJYo8m K8GpfgEFHqCK5xdjHcszHhmMHkmZMqMcrRPER66lXPqN+EZTgfK/6FjjI3dRuLfY2KYZKsnKQ KkHGWj4cOk5k1A= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] time to start the deprecation of CCM_8? X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 09:18:57 -0000 Hi Tero, as I wrote last year in https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/core/qFNAXTWVWr8X0ROLPlbvSy965nk/ "- check for each deployment, if the 8 bytes saving is relevant. For normal IP(v4) traffic we have 20 bytes IP, 8 bytes UDP, 13 bytes DTLS 1.2 record, 8 bytes nonce, and 8 or 16 bytes MAC. That's in sum 57 vs. 65 (or about 12%). Adding a CoAP message with 32 byte, the relative saving is less. In some cases it's more the MTU, which makes the 8 bytes saving relevant in order not to use 2 low-layer-messages." The saving isn't that large, at least, if there is no mistake in that calculation. For cases with "header compression", someone, who is more common to that, may provide an additional calculation. For me the question is: - is it easier (less effort) to go with the TLS mainstream and "deprecate CCM8". - or to dig into the "57 bit assumption", which causes the pain for the "64 bit MAC". For the second, we can try to get some help from one of the crypto experts, to get more background for the 57 bit. But I would appreciate, if that is not only my question and more of that group raise their interes= t. For the most of my usage, CCM will do it, so personally I tend to go for the first, just use ccm without dig into the 57bit. best regards Achim Am 21.03.22 um 22:31 schrieb Tero Kivinen: > Thomas Fossati writes: >> Coming back to this thread to give you an update on the current (draft) >> proposal: >> >> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-uta-tls13-iot-profile-04.htm= l#section-18 >> >> Please have a look and let us know what you think. > > I have not been able to parse that CFRG draft properly to really > understand what their limits mean. > > I.e. the assumptions there seem to be for normal internet traffic, but > if we assume IoT use case, for example IEEE 802.15.4, and use say > maximum packet size of 127 bytes (normal packet size is most likely > something like 80-100 bytes), maximum data rate of 250 kBit/s, i.e. > about 300-400 packets / second, how long would one of those forgery > attempts take in seconds? > > I would assume that on environments which are not that constrained > (i.e., has packet sizes over 0.5 kB, or speed over 1MBit/s) do not > need to save bytes and use CCM_8. Those environments can (and should) > use normal CCM, so only the very constrained devices shuld be of > interest when talking about CCM_8. From nobody Tue Mar 22 17:33:56 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9041C3A1549; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 17:33:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wwvsD6gvhExn; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 17:33:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [IPv6:2001:1900:3001:11::31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 849E83A1536; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 17:33:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 499) id 91C083BA9D; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 17:33:43 -0700 (PDT) To: ietf-announce@ietf.org, rfc-dist@rfc-editor.org From: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Cc: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, drafts-update-ref@iana.org, core@ietf.org Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Message-Id: <20220323003343.91C083BA9D@rfc-editor.org> Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 17:33:43 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: [core] =?utf-8?q?RFC_9177_on_Constrained_Application_Protocol_?= =?utf-8?q?=28CoAP=29_Block-Wise_Transfer_Options_Supporting_Robust_Transm?= =?utf-8?q?ission?= X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 00:33:53 -0000 A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. RFC 9177 Title: Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP) Block-Wise Transfer Options Supporting Robust Transmission Author: M. Boucadair, J. Shallow Status: Standards Track Stream: IETF Date: March 2022 Mailbox: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, supjps-ietf@jpshallow.com Pages: 41 Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso: None I-D Tag: draft-ietf-core-new-block-14.txt URL: https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc9177 DOI: 10.17487/RFC9177 This document specifies alternative Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP) block-wise transfer options: Q-Block1 and Q-Block2. These options are similar to, but distinct from, the CoAP Block1 and Block2 options defined in RFC 7959. The Q-Block1 and Q-Block2 options are not intended to replace the Block1 and Block2 options but rather have the goal of supporting Non-confirmable (NON) messages for large amounts of data with fewer packet interchanges. Also, the Q-Block1 and Q-Block2 options support faster recovery should any of the blocks get lost in transmission. This document is a product of the Constrained RESTful Environments Working Group of the IETF. This is now a Proposed Standard. STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet Standards Track protocol for the Internet community, and requests discussion and suggestions for improvements. Please refer to the current edition of the Official Internet Protocol Standards (https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards) for the standardization state and status of this protocol. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. This announcement is sent to the IETF-Announce and rfc-dist lists. To subscribe or unsubscribe, see https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce https://mailman.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-dist For searching the RFC series, see https://www.rfc-editor.org/search For downloading RFCs, see https://www.rfc-editor.org/retrieve/bulk Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the author of the RFC in question, or to rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org. Unless specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for unlimited distribution. 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bh=V36TVrtC1/4CNiKvnDsCMK3Yoz70s12UH10M6BT0bVc=; b=gbSKmm0z0kuejqe3WY2P+FLkXSfPdbu/X63yB9Yw0wLFwfgAnDnVerlyyfoe9miFaWMKSlW9PCrKlF9FoZxVzJjQt/xlPmH/WIXHAGFrK+5TtNIQFlfVpNN0beX+xpgIZJFfHLS63rMh9C5eiXceApROtgta4uX0vv17LmHHDZk= Received: from DB9PR08MB6524.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:251::8) by AM0PR08MB4050.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:208:12a::11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.5081.18; Wed, 23 Mar 2022 15:25:01 +0000 Received: from DB9PR08MB6524.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d971:bb59:de21:68]) by DB9PR08MB6524.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d971:bb59:de21:68%2]) with mapi id 15.20.5102.016; Wed, 23 Mar 2022 15:25:01 +0000 From: Thomas Fossati To: Tero Kivinen CC: Carsten Bormann , Thomas Fossati , "core@ietf.org WG" Thread-Topic: [core] time to start the deprecation of CCM_8? 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X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 15:25:35 -0000 --_000_DB9PR08MB652437F020F11D18E724D1AE9C189DB9PR08MB6524eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Tero, Thanks very much for you comments. > Tero Kivinen wrote: > Thomas Fossati writes: > > Coming back to this thread to give you an update on the current > > (draft) proposal: > > > > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-uta-tls13-iot-profile-04.htm= l#section-18 > > > > Please have a look and let us know what you think. > > I have not been able to parse that CFRG draft properly to really > understand what their limits mean. > > I.e. the assumptions there seem to be for normal internet traffic, but > if we assume IoT use case, for example IEEE 802.15.4, and use say > maximum packet size of 127 bytes (normal packet size is most likely > something like 80-100 bytes), maximum data rate of 250 kBit/s, i.e. > about 300-400 packets / second, how long would one of those forgery > attempts take in seconds? We are trying to avoid writing this stuff down because it tends to depend on a lot of variables and the tradeoff is not always clear. Marco and Rikard are trying to provide that kind of guidance in [1] for OSCORE, and while I find their effort extremely laudable (kudos!), I also reckon that that kind of approach would not necessarily make the life easier to operators and developers alike. > I would assume that on environments which are not that constrained > (i.e., has packet sizes over 0.5 kB, or speed over 1MBit/s) do not > need to save bytes and use CCM_8. Those environments can (and should) > use normal CCM, so only the very constrained devices shuld be of > interest when talking about CCM_8. Yep, that's the gist of the recommendation in [2], which basically amount to providing an interoperable and (as much as possible) risk-free fallback for CoAP, and more generally IoT deployments. cheers, t [1] https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-core-oscore-key-update-01.ht= ml#appendix-A [2] https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-uta-tls13-iot-profile-04.htm= l#section-18 IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. --_000_DB9PR08MB652437F020F11D18E724D1AE9C189DB9PR08MB6524eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Tero,=

 

Thanks very much fo= r you comments.

 

> Tero Kivinen &= lt;kivinen@iki.fi> wrote:

> Thomas Fossati= writes:

> > Coming ba= ck to this thread to give you an update on the current

> > (draft) p= roposal:

> >

> > https://w= ww.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-uta-tls13-iot-profile-04.html#section-18<= o:p>

> >

> > Please ha= ve a look and let us know what you think.

>

> I have not bee= n able to parse that CFRG draft properly to really

> understand wha= t their limits mean.

>

> I.e. the assum= ptions there seem to be for normal internet traffic, but<= /p>

> if we assume I= oT use case, for example IEEE 802.15.4, and use say

> maximum packet= size of 127 bytes (normal packet size is most likely

> something like= 80-100 bytes), maximum data rate of 250 kBit/s, i.e.

> about 300-400 = packets / second, how long would one of those forgery

> attempts take = in seconds?

 

We are trying to av= oid writing this stuff down because it tends to

depend on a lot of = variables and the tradeoff is not always clear.

Marco and Rikard ar= e trying to provide that kind of guidance in [1] for

OSCORE, and while I= find their effort extremely laudable (kudos!), I

also reckon that th= at kind of approach would not necessarily make the

life easier to oper= ators and developers alike.

 

> I would assume= that on environments which are not that constrained

> (i.e., has pac= ket sizes over 0.5 kB, or speed over 1MBit/s) do not

> need to save b= ytes and use CCM_8. Those environments can (and should)

> use normal CCM= , so only the very constrained devices shuld be of

> interest when = talking about CCM_8.

 

Yep, that's the gis= t of the recommendation in [2], which basically

amount to providing= an interoperable and (as much as possible) risk-free

fallback for CoAP, = and more generally IoT deployments.

 

cheers, t

 

[1] https://www.iet= f.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-core-oscore-key-update-01.html#appendix-A<= /o:p>

[2] https://www.iet= f.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-uta-tls13-iot-profile-04.html#section-18

 

 

 

 

 

 

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. --_000_DB9PR08MB652437F020F11D18E724D1AE9C189DB9PR08MB6524eurp_-- From nobody Thu Mar 24 11:32:07 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA3E13A13CA for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 11:31:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jacGFwUhwYrM for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 11:31:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [IPv6:2a01:7e00:e000:2bb::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B49A43A12B8 for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 11:31:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (dynamic-046-114-148-245.46.114.pool.telefonica.de [46.114.148.245]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 124051F458; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 18:31:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 2E4BC1A01AA; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 19:31:41 +0100 (CET) From: Michael Richardson To: core@ietf.org X-Attribution: mcr X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7.1; GNU Emacs 26.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 19:31:41 +0100 Message-ID: <32267.1648146701@dooku> Archived-At: Subject: [core] SID file --- status entry for allocation X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 18:32:04 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Today in discussion with ADs Rob Wilton and Francesca, it became clear that we really need to add a status entry to the SID file for allocations. The use case is where we have taken a YANG module to RFC, and have created a stable set of SID allocations for it. Then, we revise the module. During that process of doing draft-foo-bar-rfcBIS, we might want to reset the SID numbering as we add/subtract/modify the extension proposals. So we need to know which parts of the SID file we can reset, and which parts we can not. This is a rudamentary pull request to do that. I am uncertain if this YANG module parses as yet. I haven't done any work on sid.py to implement this. Please let me know if I captured the proposal well enough. I don't know what to call the thing which is not stable. I feel that "unstable" does not quite capture the proper intent. https://github.com/core-wg/yang-cbor/pull/141 -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQGzBAEBCgAdFiEEow/1qDVgAbWL2zxYcAKuwszYgEMFAmI8uQwACgkQcAKuwszY gEO+cgv9HWwz1dN3mUNy0oF+6Q/1xQ7f9Kxf2dxW0DpRJUUDcM3Xkbf99RCVzQHQ rXI1EpJ3rpelTO8GmPopqQJlIl0sbHzRdTbNajG34NYghM/bQaWkSKopwYeKe+r3 +0owYen2dXDF3HQup55zivxgyhbVPYFHmDnIO1avLxCQDpbUT2BUyklDtQumC6Kx 9d2jkalhpE70LuZAyIEkT07p5eyNHuaqjysYnGeLqzOwmITBa7nxvI3idbVAYS9t gpjTVVWbhcbsahyQ69u/nkxkQ2Yom3DUpkgvsbIIWojsQoIp4UzUE12je3uAhxPC CFJNLF8z+R/OlA3y3qHgYdpU3ORYCeIikXX/JFxyTxDm3F7DyoaPHR3C6Lm6Fzqq 48vkY7p+gLCT2AJ8p02XJp0FfrwYnIYwks/e97wS6H1i3mFmXeOHymxYaveGnMJq V6UFIqrHJxAObCIhFwBDMibn6bFiYUsPO7C3NgcVFQyUCKe7OweaaUKwL6OLLzOL 8FcXLhuP =Gx1V -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Mar 24 12:46:13 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCA493A02BC for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 12:46:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Oxn-MhBukTmy for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 12:46:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw1-x1131.google.com (mail-yw1-x1131.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BBEE53A00E0 for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 12:46:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw1-x1131.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-2e5827a76f4so62264877b3.6 for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 12:46:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=6LjbEqyGEbODdKU6n669qab6YTrb/orcbM6VS8gFnMk=; b=plFmFesWV8UVHOCzjbiuM98Drred2xpnNxxadsvdgzlEsibhoCW+tJfBC0keGeobtB LgKiMXS38ZDpJSNaGu5AgQjoo0SH4B3o+zH1XQ8fgtP3Ps18GnltImWVaPhTp/LETGDh ytXFCEJQXSpvmxTaOc4ycdlSI5JMtxykwy1ohOMgiFFgEvRO12Gi2H1ASZaen9vbJeKc 4qoegHTsIcsCf3wGPglLF+2onlnClACWzpwoHADqmVvHj5lcyVurBzQTZkIG8jWkRVuN BCIhbQvqqGpWiWpiVABWgDZnSU0+BpTOB+xg2zKMN2Z7V63CHowSWie5ZeLCBo2FG0jR HOrw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6LjbEqyGEbODdKU6n669qab6YTrb/orcbM6VS8gFnMk=; b=rhxwTyLLRPv42I//VB7tzTaumehOXDwLx2WVcwREczCyY+CbUVfxnVQp49d0upJtfv S+e8RrhSKPCobX4uMFP9dMr3lcTXkj3YCeUoj3NuBj5Gw62RB7b0qBd+wSXenYAYDmI6 KK51URsc5Gb/eaxpiongOUIfiNQjfehrjpNprQx+SpjoUW5FTRWWMp85rHYSv7ofuhQV Wga+vNoL7T6bib5c8Pq25uWhzgvkiD3s5hxONM8X/DsdsRCmTz59dbWoY1JQEoMgT2kZ rhZLjLpSlmnoE6nTdF2AdaxZ1fdGOyafvs9KGwuk4zBWJgOKa0VZa2szUUvOdi/wLpex jZMw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531jKcBA0fhrzuEgrVWDUjTZka+Y/otLGglkiYsxGIJSTgs+OUH/ gXP6+O7DNpsgYXMxfenO7eKzy8k2PjaweRpxbTC9O1IqnueCgg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx8TF45z9Vvc1Bf/YtatwXDrfvoIj0GFy9RNILZPy9N1sFfZ95jDtRs/sQYVNSeMAeIuZ7CTx6UQDaQltf9bcA= X-Received: by 2002:a81:84d2:0:b0:2e5:c04e:1976 with SMTP id u201-20020a8184d2000000b002e5c04e1976mr6477410ywf.212.1648151159544; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 12:45:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <32267.1648146701@dooku> In-Reply-To: <32267.1648146701@dooku> From: Andy Bierman Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 12:45:48 -0700 Message-ID: To: Michael Richardson Cc: Core Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000066b03905dafc18f1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] SID file --- status entry for allocation X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 19:46:10 -0000 --00000000000066b03905dafc18f1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 11:33 AM Michael Richardson wrote: > > Today in discussion with ADs Rob Wilton and Francesca, it became clear that > we really need to add a status entry to the SID file for allocations. > The use case is where we have taken a YANG module to RFC, and have created > a > stable set of SID allocations for it. Then, we revise the module. During > that process of doing draft-foo-bar-rfcBIS, we might want to reset the SID > numbering as we add/subtract/modify the extension proposals. > So we need to know which parts of the SID file we can reset, and which > parts > we can not. > This information is part of the development work in progress. The SID file for an RFC MUST be stable, so the value of each leaf in an RFC SID file will always be 'stable' (and therefore useless). Subsequent RFCs MUST NOT alter previous SID assignments made in previous RFCs. If SID assignments can be undone by a new RFC they can never be considered stable. All changes to I-Ds are inherently subject-to-review. This may be worth noting at the file-level, but certainly not at the SID level. Andy > This is a rudamentary pull request to do that. I am uncertain if this YANG > module parses as yet. I haven't done any work on sid.py to implement this. > > Please let me know if I captured the proposal well enough. > I don't know what to call the thing which is not stable. > I feel that "unstable" does not quite capture the proper intent. > > https://github.com/core-wg/yang-cbor/pull/141 > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- > > > > _______________________________________________ > core mailing list > core@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core > --00000000000066b03905dafc18f1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 11:33 AM Mich= ael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:

Today in discussion with ADs Rob Wilton and Francesca, it became clear that=
we really need to add a status entry to the SID file for allocations.

The use case is where we have taken a YANG module to RFC, and have created = a
stable set of SID allocations for it.=C2=A0 Then, we revise the module. Dur= ing
that process of doing draft-foo-bar-rfcBIS, we might want to reset the SID<= br> numbering as we add/subtract/modify the extension proposals.

So we need to know which parts of the SID file we can reset, and which part= s
we can not.

This information is part of= the development work in progress.
The SID file for an RFC MUST b= e stable, so the value of each leaf in an RFC SID file
will alway= s be 'stable' (and therefore useless).

Sub= sequent RFCs MUST NOT alter previous SID assignments made in previous RFCs.=
If SID assignments can be undone by a new RFC they can neve= r be considered stable.

All changes to I-Ds = are inherently subject-to-review.
This may be worth noting at the= file-level, but certainly
not at the SID level.


Andy



This is a rudamentary pull request to do that.=C2=A0 I am uncertain if this= YANG
module parses as yet.=C2=A0 I haven't done any work on sid.py to implem= ent this.

Please let me know if I captured the proposal well enough.
I don't know what to call the thing which is not stable.
I feel that "unstable" does not quite capture the proper intent.<= br>
https://github.com/core-wg/yang-cbor/pull/141

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
=C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-



_______________________________________________
core mailing list
core@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core
--00000000000066b03905dafc18f1-- From nobody Thu Mar 24 12:57:58 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 150C83A1338 for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 12:57:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ackSgeoDABSb for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 12:57:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E6B083A077F for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 12:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089ad4f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.173.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4KPbcG0LRMzDCbG; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 20:57:50 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 20:57:49 +0100 Cc: Michael Richardson , Core X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 669844669.617728-6e59a0bc951d29f36268a95aae3c2e27 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <131810E8-5D08-4574-A9D2-1518A8F09745@tzi.org> References: <32267.1648146701@dooku> To: Andy Bierman X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] SID file --- status entry for allocation X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 19:57:57 -0000 > This information is part of the development work in progress. Exactly! We distinguished the SID files you use for working with =E2=80=9Cunstable=E2= =80=9D YANG modules (e.g., still at I-D status for IETF, but the = terminology needs to be wider than that) with the ones that have been = adopted for =E2=80=9Cstable=E2=80=9D YANG modules (in the IETF, = published in an RFC). > The SID file for an RFC MUST be stable, so the value of each leaf in = an RFC SID file > will always be 'stable' (and therefore useless). This is why =E2=80=99stable=E2=80=99 is the default, so we can use = existing SID files. > Subsequent RFCs MUST NOT alter previous SID assignments made in = previous RFCs. Exactly, that=E2=80=99s why these are marked stable. > If SID assignments can be undone by a new RFC they can never be = considered stable. Indeed. > All changes to I-Ds are inherently subject-to-review. Well, =E2=80=9Csubject-to-review=E2=80=9D was not the word we used in = the discussion. We used =E2=80=9Cunstable=E2=80=9D, deliberately. > This may be worth noting at the file-level, but certainly > not at the SID level. That would be true if we could make sure that SID files never turn up in = a place where their context may not be immediatelyavailable. E.g., if I start revising a YANG module, I will feed the stable SID file = to pyang and get a new SID file. Now I need to make sure that SID file = never gets into the hands of people who might think about this as the = final product. So pyang will mark some of the assignments as unstable. I can even feed that to pyang after revising the YANG module again, and = pyang will respect both the stable and the unstable assignments in the = same file, but transfer the stability status to the new SID file, = alongside with marking any new ones as unstable. Until the YANG module = itself makes the transition from unstable to stable, at which time I=E2=80= =99d make a final allocation step, marking all surviving new allocations = as stable (as well as the existing stable ones). Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Mar 24 13:16:19 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EC4A3A141B for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 13:16:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6_bVwYizsZGG for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 13:16:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-xb33.google.com (mail-yb1-xb33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 735C93A1401 for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 13:16:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb33.google.com with SMTP id x20so10315519ybi.5 for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 13:16:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=7qttDZJS8QgS1oMRhGRn5oX5c3PlQVxws3FdgQA4T28=; b=OS95efKZnFjjGvNcdHf0xa03FgXapDqkMIGndnLE/WvKXNsLZSa/92vFSZHdlW8LMw a9rME3gAKz5RpZF1qeQqqPOx2EEZDvn1mWfXL2qtIUCFEdQQNqHNmeEpC4x4go3tYOLE xh93z35vUUCEkJUJ1Om9o3dcJPHwOsthf5gxP94ksGQEAMP8+CRGTVhrYtAEK2An7u1J Tzfa1KieMfkgVZGc9rG4vkNqN5WHso2nx7KPRG8Zic89e26XDWCXE/7hBroOpAoHjVK0 Nwi6Yh0BpgBNyWJn46HGJRXnd3KNyaGuwnDKyksEsOoJK4umhFG2KjuCefHfxTFK+LYR kbrQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=7qttDZJS8QgS1oMRhGRn5oX5c3PlQVxws3FdgQA4T28=; b=zH2EQ2ehG07/q9qiiI3xdCnDdY7+rU6sN+iZu4ieR96WLjR6wklWGA62SSRlXQpkM6 LdwqO5bPZP4oIdQvBOS9y4RQZQWYRtdO820ZyxHFhShzJ7hC8vCK20ml4P1swjEoiYnE GZQ6giA2Dr/vMVF3eFAKUPdDKTWetgnNj8IL+V4+T+hK+axZ8EV5h/8xpuuzN/OrVtyB E44YWkbza7PkmdVcjcwfd/qIq1H6VZA0OIigSXZKonrzXGIWZUcyUYBlrTWj3uLTrrZ5 6dkbPtlcC9OOD/p8sVblM0vPK52oUZfft3oUM48ZC22sCrBgm4pPP/28ff1XXkuNhOgz ZjaA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531JHNdlD6Er7XlTrVbLmtcrlVMvLP1eo8awl81Zv7d2GIZM1svz bW0JKST1y2Y+4Gcn2sKRc+RyHDQPxNxeNN7X1GMP9w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwuuyd8+pqSPRNJUPnfcdjkOCL0lg7Y+8RaxqyKpIaS7Fxbh9g0Xq2e9cTATSCpSz2+GV5qPNr3NB5azK0e29g= X-Received: by 2002:a25:a123:0:b0:633:a6b3:875b with SMTP id z32-20020a25a123000000b00633a6b3875bmr6637852ybh.430.1648152971476; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 13:16:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <32267.1648146701@dooku> <131810E8-5D08-4574-A9D2-1518A8F09745@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <131810E8-5D08-4574-A9D2-1518A8F09745@tzi.org> From: Andy Bierman Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 13:16:00 -0700 Message-ID: To: Carsten Bormann Cc: Michael Richardson , Core Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006697f605dafc8420" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] SID file --- status entry for allocation X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 20:16:18 -0000 --0000000000006697f605dafc8420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 12:57 PM Carsten Bormann wrote: > > This information is part of the development work in progress. > > Exactly! > We distinguished the SID files you use for working with =E2=80=9Cunstable= =E2=80=9D YANG > modules (e.g., still at I-D status for IETF, but the terminology needs to > be wider than that) with the ones that have been adopted for =E2=80=9Csta= ble=E2=80=9D YANG > modules (in the IETF, published in an RFC). > > > The SID file for an RFC MUST be stable, so the value of each leaf in an > RFC SID file > > will always be 'stable' (and therefore useless). > > This is why =E2=80=99stable=E2=80=99 is the default, so we can use existi= ng SID files. > > > Subsequent RFCs MUST NOT alter previous SID assignments made in previou= s > RFCs. > > Exactly, that=E2=80=99s why these are marked stable. > > > If SID assignments can be undone by a new RFC they can never be > considered stable. > > Indeed. > > > All changes to I-Ds are inherently subject-to-review. > > Well, =E2=80=9Csubject-to-review=E2=80=9D was not the word we used in the= discussion. > We used =E2=80=9Cunstable=E2=80=9D, deliberately. > > > This may be worth noting at the file-level, but certainly > > not at the SID level. > > That would be true if we could make sure that SID files never turn up in = a > place where their context may not be immediatelyavailable. > > E.g., if I start revising a YANG module, I will feed the stable SID file > to pyang and get a new SID file. Now I need to make sure that SID file > never gets into the hands of people who might think about this as the fin= al > product. > So pyang will mark some of the assignments as unstable. > I can even feed that to pyang after revising the YANG module again, and > pyang will respect both the stable and the unstable assignments in the sa= me > file, but transfer the stability status to the new SID file, alongside wi= th > marking any new ones as unstable. Until the YANG module itself makes the > transition from unstable to stable, at which time I=E2=80=99d make a fina= l > allocation step, marking all surviving new allocations as stable (as well > as the existing stable ones). > > Is the WG supposed to hand-edit SID files for inclusion in I-Ds? pyang needs to have the parent SID file to generate an update. How does a developer know which individual SID assignments to set to 'unstable'? If the tooling is supposed to know, then why do developers need to care? Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > > Andy --0000000000006697f605dafc8420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 12:57 PM Cars= ten Bormann <cabo@tzi.= org> wrote:
> This information is part of the development work in progress.

Exactly!
We distinguished the SID files you use for working with =E2=80=9Cunstable= =E2=80=9D YANG modules (e.g., still at I-D status for IETF, but the termino= logy needs to be wider than that) with the ones that have been adopted for = =E2=80=9Cstable=E2=80=9D YANG modules (in the IETF, published in an RFC).
> The SID file for an RFC MUST be stable, so the value of each leaf in a= n RFC SID file
> will always be 'stable' (and therefore useless).

This is why =E2=80=99stable=E2=80=99 is the default, so we can use existing= SID files.

> Subsequent RFCs MUST NOT alter previous SID assignments made in previo= us RFCs.

Exactly, that=E2=80=99s why these are marked stable.

> If SID assignments can be undone by a new RFC they can never be consid= ered stable.

Indeed.

> All changes to I-Ds are inherently subject-to-review.

Well, =E2=80=9Csubject-to-review=E2=80=9D was not the word we used in the d= iscussion.
We used =E2=80=9Cunstable=E2=80=9D, deliberately.

> This may be worth noting at the file-level, but certainly
> not at the SID level.

That would be true if we could make sure that SID files never turn up in a = place where their context may not be immediatelyavailable.

E.g., if I start revising a YANG module, I will feed the stable SID file to= pyang and get a new SID file.=C2=A0 Now I need to make sure that SID file = never gets into the hands of people who might think about this as the final= product.
So pyang will mark some of the assignments as unstable.
I can even feed that to pyang after revising the YANG module again, and pya= ng will respect both the stable and the unstable assignments in the same fi= le, but transfer the stability status to the new SID file, alongside with m= arking any new ones as unstable.=C2=A0 Until the YANG module itself makes t= he transition from unstable to stable, at which time I=E2=80=99d make a fin= al allocation step, marking all surviving new allocations as stable (as wel= l as the existing stable ones).



Is the=C2=A0WG supposed= to hand-edit SID files for inclusion in I-Ds?
pyang needs to hav= e the parent SID file to generate an update.

How d= oes a developer know which individual SID assignments to set to 'unstab= le'?
If the tooling is supposed to know, then why do develope= rs need to care?


Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten



Andy
=C2=A0
--0000000000006697f605dafc8420-- From nobody Thu Mar 24 13:22:33 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B45D3A0938 for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 13:22:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V4ZbZnggckLs for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 13:22:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 75B1B3A0933 for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 13:22:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089ad4f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.173.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4KPc8Z4jJhzDCbJ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:22:22 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:22:22 +0100 Cc: Michael Richardson , Core X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 669846142.250386-d1276b50ed03866155ebbd09e70ddc74 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <32267.1648146701@dooku> <131810E8-5D08-4574-A9D2-1518A8F09745@tzi.org> To: Andy Bierman X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] SID file --- status entry for allocation X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 20:22:32 -0000 On 2022-03-24, at 21:16, Andy Bierman wrote: >=20 > Is the WG supposed to hand-edit SID files for inclusion in I-Ds? I hope not. > pyang needs to have the parent SID file to generate an update. Yes. Plus a flag that says whether this is another SID file with = unstable SIDs or whether the resulting SID file will be the new stable. (The first case could even be split into an =E2=80=9Cadd-only=E2=80=9D = and a =E2=80=9Cwholesale replace=E2=80=9D for the unstable ones =E2=80=94 = the unstable ones would simply be ignored in the latter case.) > How does a developer know which individual SID assignments to set to = 'unstable'? Pyang knows (once given the above flag). > If the tooling is supposed to know, then why do developers need to = care? Indeed, we didn=E2=80=99t say *why* you would want that information = (except that it makes life easier for the tooling). It was Rob=E2=80=99s conviction that you would want that, and I do = sympathize with that. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Mar 24 15:09:12 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 097193A0A42 for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 15:09:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Co1Sq7x-XUFB for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 15:09:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-xb33.google.com (mail-yb1-xb33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 226EE3A0B8F for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 15:09:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb33.google.com with SMTP id o5so10923536ybe.2 for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 15:09:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=mce97jQC7fWWzYmZbJouWmhntb2/YizuMnL/D4UiSMg=; b=GOb3TFxydw3z+BGsdGEWeoDokEl8KJwQyZUc2vVNubHMeE3ZRleOtea9ST7rDN7cvf 5l+FE3ADzy49w2D/eeIQ/2gIUHFZSb+JpVC+juULoBUo67zyZ+ZRs+xmfAunX0Wz9Hd4 0nt9AJDEIqNCN1hxpwM3iERIBkuBH8RAVtyugzXNFcz82zlx2lL727674enhc7Dquy6y dCYinyEi7ChSIVfpG3Fx2LcoH9Fw+YKyBlouvv7xJhiq16UhlIv58RYgRrfkRg0BUavc 7MCwqpZOqTesXWmwJsnwYpg5z2QvZ6FS20f4EeYqVdrqlFtN3t3/z6bRSvOmDKgp5rEu nh3Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=mce97jQC7fWWzYmZbJouWmhntb2/YizuMnL/D4UiSMg=; b=dHDhnakJ4yvutq5BHrd+MyP4/JUR5Vn9OpBO+4N3Fkc98B8+WQ8m59C6revN31LuNy N5T8NjYAn9rZS2hPV1Z7nQNfl6EsEEFkM+QJT654swZ1uwrf2NZnbRwKhrxNZt9aJl8B 2HH5onNLW63pJlzicLCD+pZJAnDP2n4RpTk51VMZcvi3Yrf9WGZUU3+BYB6pjeRWeaYE gr476kMXzCabuUalNEYGQ5Zl/H/LwaFYP9dU+LcHO+UFIuNDqJAoU8DcZPXotC3Wjm2k p6XTUFAhNixce1eqM+0g92QYLgHmSsiqxt8lPVruiaJXycR7G4gy/sX8jvw2E3TnvtWN K1YQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5310W9C1+mVk2iLJBoXYH71HPwaHLFAUKpgKjV9YvRjnd0M4SVDw V5+Rh7RS8rZStJxjv8K1AFrh+3GwuCsSYkezcks7NQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx6FysY44/pwTzoOw5uJny4By17CSMHaWSv33M6gE70ptQHtWux2hA/1szQEGf5eh6nls8D6bFq+tt7uGTAhLU= X-Received: by 2002:a25:41d8:0:b0:634:1a47:8165 with SMTP id o207-20020a2541d8000000b006341a478165mr6536209yba.262.1648159742758; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 15:09:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <32267.1648146701@dooku> <131810E8-5D08-4574-A9D2-1518A8F09745@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: From: Andy Bierman Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 15:08:51 -0700 Message-ID: To: Carsten Bormann Cc: Michael Richardson , Core Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000026c805dafe18f1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] SID file --- status entry for allocation X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 22:09:11 -0000 --0000000000000026c805dafe18f1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 1:22 PM Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 2022-03-24, at 21:16, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > Is the WG supposed to hand-edit SID files for inclusion in I-Ds? > > I hope not. > > > pyang needs to have the parent SID file to generate an update. > > Yes. Plus a flag that says whether this is another SID file with unstabl= e > SIDs or whether the resulting SID file will be the new stable. > (The first case could even be split into an =E2=80=9Cadd-only=E2=80=9D an= d a =E2=80=9Cwholesale > replace=E2=80=9D for the unstable ones =E2=80=94 the unstable ones would = simply be ignored > in the latter case.) > > > How does a developer know which individual SID assignments to set to > 'unstable'? > > Pyang knows (once given the above flag). > > > If the tooling is supposed to know, then why do developers need to care= ? > > Indeed, we didn=E2=80=99t say *why* you would want that information (exce= pt that > it makes life easier for the tooling). > It was Rob=E2=80=99s conviction that you would want that, and I do sympat= hize with > that. > > The process for managing SID assignments should be marked 'unstable'. I imagined that a SID allocation block would be the lowest granularity needed for module updates. So the granularity is the assignment-range, not each SID. leaf /sid-file/assignment-range/stable { type boolean; default true; } e.g. Module foo initially has 1 assignment range All I-Ds leading to first RFC: { entry-point=3D2000 size=3D40 stable=3Dfalse } Publish the first RFC (locking the assignment range forever!) { entry-point=3D2000 size=3D40 stable=3Dtrue } Later, a new assignment range is allocated for new SIDs intended for RFC_2 All I-Ds after RFC_N, leading to RFC_N+1 (now have 2 assignment ranges) { entry-point=3D2000 size=3D40 stable=3Dtrue }, { entry-point=3D6000 size=3D40 stable=3Dfalse } What are the use-cases for marking some SIDs within a range as stable, and other SIDs in the same range as unstable? The ranges are already intentionally small so "SID waste" is minimized. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > Andy --0000000000000026c805dafe18f1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 1:22 PM Carst= en Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:<= br>
On 2022-03-24, a= t 21:16, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> wrote:
>
> Is the WG supposed to hand-edit SID files for inclusion in I-Ds?

I hope not.

> pyang needs to have the parent SID file to generate an update.

Yes.=C2=A0 Plus a flag that says whether this is another SID file with unst= able SIDs or whether the resulting SID file will be the new stable.
(The first case could even be split into an =E2=80=9Cadd-only=E2=80=9D and = a =E2=80=9Cwholesale replace=E2=80=9D for the unstable ones =E2=80=94 the u= nstable ones would simply be ignored in the latter case.)

> How does a developer know which individual SID assignments to set to &= #39;unstable'?

Pyang knows (once given the above flag).

> If the tooling is supposed to know, then why do developers need to car= e?

Indeed, we didn=E2=80=99t say *why* you would want that information (except= that it makes life easier for the tooling).
It was Rob=E2=80=99s conviction that you would want that, and I do sympathi= ze with that.


The process for managing SID assignmen= ts should be marked 'unstable'.

I imagined= that a SID allocation block would be the lowest granularity needed for mod= ule updates.
So the granularity is the assignment-range, not each= SID.

leaf /sid-file/assignment-range/stable { typ= e boolean; default true; }

e.g.

=

Module foo initially has 1 assignment range
=

All I-Ds leading to first RFC:
{
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 entry-point=3D2000
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 size=3D40
<= div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 stable=3Dfalse
}

Publi= sh the first RFC (locking the assignment=C2=A0range forever!)
{
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 entry-point=3D2000
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 size=3D40
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 stable=3Dtrue
}

Later, a ne= w assignment range is allocated for new SIDs intended for RFC_2
<= br>
All I-Ds after RFC_N, leading to RFC_N+1 (now have 2 assignme= nt ranges)

{
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 entry-point=3D2000
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 size= =3D40
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 stable=3Dtrue
},
{
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 entry-point= =3D6000
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 size=3D40
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 stable=3D= false
}



<= div>What are the use-cases for marking some SIDs within a range as stable,<= /div>
and other SIDs in the same range as unstable?

The ranges are already intentionally=C2=A0small so "SID waste&qu= ot; is minimized.


Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


Andy
=C2=A0
--0000000000000026c805dafe18f1-- From nobody Thu Mar 24 19:23:32 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CDAC3A1340 for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 19:23:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L8nTeSS8Tqka for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 19:23:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2EA543A1334 for ; Thu, 24 Mar 2022 19:23:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (p5089ad4f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.173.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4KPm942qZSzDCbj; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 03:23:20 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.80.82.1.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 03:23:19 +0100 Cc: Michael Richardson , Core Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9C3ADD5E-6B10-4592-B258-9569313C90F8@tzi.org> References: <32267.1648146701@dooku> <131810E8-5D08-4574-A9D2-1518A8F09745@tzi.org> To: Andy Bierman X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.80.82.1.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] SID file --- status entry for allocation X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 02:23:30 -0000 On 24. Mar 2022, at 23:08, Andy Bierman wrote: >=20 > What are the use-cases for marking some SIDs within a range as stable, > and other SIDs in the same range as unstable? There is quite some benefit from keeping the SIDs used by a module close = together. If you plan for evolution, you keep some free space in the SID range = allocated for a module. So the bis version of a module can expand into that free space first = before needing to allocate a second range. > The ranges are already intentionally small so "SID waste" is = minimized. There is a tradeoff here, and I would expect we arrive at some rule of = thumb for how many SIDs we want to keep available in the SID range used = for a module and its revisions (e.g., keep 1/3 for expansion?). So I don=E2=80=99t think the granularity of stable/unstable assignment = can be per range, it really needs to be per SID. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Fri Mar 25 04:39:44 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2780C3A1122 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 04:39:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.906 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.906 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1r_4UkZjwHKe for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 04:39:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outpost1.zedat.fu-berlin.de (outpost1.zedat.fu-berlin.de [130.133.4.66]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EBB2B3A1139 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 04:39:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from inpost2.zedat.fu-berlin.de ([130.133.4.69]) by outpost.zedat.fu-berlin.de (Exim 4.95) for core@ietf.org with esmtps (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (envelope-from ) id 1nXiI4-0047RC-2R; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:39:36 +0100 Received: from dhcp-8071.meeting.ietf.org ([31.133.128.113]) by inpost2.zedat.fu-berlin.de (Exim 4.95) for core@ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (envelope-from ) id 1nXiI3-002ggq-Sl; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:39:36 +0100 Message-ID: <426473c4-167d-226f-00ef-60d6f5aed54b@fu-berlin.de> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:39:34 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.7.0 Content-Language: en-US To: "core@ietf.org" From: Martine Sophie Lenders Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Original-Sender: m.lenders@fu-berlin.de X-Originating-IP: 31.133.128.113 Archived-At: Subject: [core] DNS over CoAP: A new Content-Format X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 11:39:43 -0000 Hi, during today's meeting, I was asked to put the four discussion points I presented in my talk on DoC [1] on the list. Here is the discussion points on a potentially new Content-Format (slides 8-9 at [2], maybe also 7 for context). Due to the overhead we face with, e.g., OSCORE and link-layer security, we might already run into 6LoWPAN fragmentation. Sure, this could be circumvented with block-wise transfer, but it would be better performance-wise, to put as much information as possible into one message and link-layer PDU. As such, we probably need some kind of compression of DNS messages. Here is the rough collection of ideas I presented during: - Omit authority and additional sections in DNS responses - Question section always size 1: omit QDCount field - Make class and type optional (imply IN/AAAA) - Self-delimiting numeric values for classes, types, counts, TTLs, etc.? - Question section optional in responses? I also briefly discussed two options: - Put everything in a CBOR-array: Question section CBOR-array and answer section: CBOR-array of arrays, or - implement some “remote getaddrbyname()” (i.e., query name (maybe type?), expect address as response)? Carsten also proposed some way to squeeze some bytes out of the name, perhaps he could also write something up here on this. We also thought about, but I did not explicitly mention, some 6LoWPAN- or SCHC-like address prefix compression, but that might need some additional architecture. And then there is the question if this is even something we should discuss in the same draft as DoC itself and if this is even a core topic or rather should go to dnsop. Cheers, Martine [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lenders-dns-over-coap/ [2] https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/113/materials/slides-113-core-dns-queries-over-coap-doc-00 From nobody Fri Mar 25 04:56:20 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B2C33A11D8 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 04:56:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qf0Vpdgahf-S for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 04:56:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outpost1.zedat.fu-berlin.de (outpost1.zedat.fu-berlin.de [130.133.4.66]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2EAE03A121F for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 04:56:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from inpost2.zedat.fu-berlin.de ([130.133.4.69]) by outpost.zedat.fu-berlin.de (Exim 4.95) for core@ietf.org with esmtps (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (envelope-from ) id 1nXiXw-004C11-Vn; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:56:01 +0100 Received: from dhcp-8071.meeting.ietf.org ([31.133.128.113]) by inpost2.zedat.fu-berlin.de (Exim 4.95) for core@ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (envelope-from ) id 1nXiXw-002iX1-Pa; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:56:00 +0100 Message-ID: <4ceb78f1-dca5-b0b8-b9af-9d1fde8d258f@fu-berlin.de> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:55:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.7.0 Content-Language: en-US To: "core@ietf.org" From: Martine Sophie Lenders Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Original-Sender: m.lenders@fu-berlin.de X-Originating-IP: 31.133.128.113 Archived-At: Subject: [core] DNS over CoAP: Caching and CoAP Max-Age vs DNS TTL X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 11:56:18 -0000 Hi, during today's meeting, I was asked to put the four discussion points I presented in my talk on DoC [1] on the list. Here is the discussion points on the implications of caching and the problem of Max-Age and DNS TTL (slides 10-12 of [2]). When caching at a CoAP proxy, we face the issue that both CoAP's Max-Age option and the TTL value in DNS are expressed by means of a relative time frame: A caching proxy (which might not be aware of DoC) might update the Max-Age accordingly on Cache Hit, but not the TTLs. As such, to get the real time a record is valid, the DoC client need to adapt the DNS TTLs according the CoAP Max-Age. I presented two options, already discussed in our GitHub PRs [3]. Option 1 [4] would basically take the DoH route and just use the minimum TTL min(TTLs) as the Max-Age and not further manipulate the DNS response. Consequently, the client would need to check the TTLs then again the Max-Age of the response and, if the Max-Age is lesser than the minimum TTL, adapt the TTLs accordingly, by doing TTL_new = TTL_old - (min(TTLs) - Max-Age) Option 2 [5] puts most of that workload on the server, which apart from using the minimum TTL min(TTLs) as the Max-Age then uses that value to adapt all TTLs within the DNS response by doing TTL_new = TTL_old - min(TTLs) The client then doesn't need to search the minimum TTL first and compare it to the Max-Age, but just can add the current Max-Age to all TTLs: TTL_new = TTL_old + Max-Age This option has the added bonus that it is also more robust against cache invalidation when using content-based ETags: The TTLs do not change in the CoAP response, even if different TTLs are reported from upstream (assuming they are still have the same differences to each other). The disadvantage is, that we add an explicit dependency of the application data on CoAP context. So the questions are: Which Option should we go for? Is this even something that should be discussed in the draft? Cheers, Martine [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lenders-dns-over-coap/ [2] https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/113/materials/slides-113-core-dns-queries-over-coap-doc-00 [3] https://github.com/anr-bmbf-pivot/draft-dns-over-coap/pulls [4] https://github.com/anr-bmbf-pivot/draft-dns-over-coap/pull/17 [5] https://github.com/anr-bmbf-pivot/draft-dns-over-coap/pull/19 From nobody Fri Mar 25 05:08:23 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D52D83A0DE5 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 05:08:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XvwZiK3mcHdD for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 05:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outpost1.zedat.fu-berlin.de (outpost1.zedat.fu-berlin.de [130.133.4.66]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E89C3A0DB0 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 05:08:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from inpost2.zedat.fu-berlin.de ([130.133.4.69]) by outpost.zedat.fu-berlin.de (Exim 4.95) for core@ietf.org with esmtps (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (envelope-from ) id 1nXijl-0005yO-H0; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 13:08:13 +0100 Received: from dhcp-8071.meeting.ietf.org ([31.133.128.113]) by inpost2.zedat.fu-berlin.de (Exim 4.95) for core@ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (envelope-from ) id 1nXijl-002k00-7u; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 13:08:13 +0100 Message-ID: <8733668d-fc35-9551-1a3c-d779a8af9666@fu-berlin.de> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 13:08:12 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.7.0 Content-Language: en-US To: "core@ietf.org" From: Martine Sophie Lenders Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Original-Sender: m.lenders@fu-berlin.de X-Originating-IP: 31.133.128.113 Archived-At: Subject: [core] DNS over CoAP: OBSERVE needed? X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:08:20 -0000 Hi, during today's meeting, I was asked to put the four discussion points I presented in my talk on DoC [1] on the list. Here is the discussion point on OBSERVE/Server push (slides 13 of [2]). Our current version (-03) of the draft has a TBD section on OBSERVE (section 5.3). That came from considerations put forward in DoH, RFC 8484, section 4.3 which discusses the delivery of further HTTP responses with the queried name, e.g., the index.html at the root of the name requested. The question is: do we need or want this in CoRE? A use case could be to also deliver the resource directories entries, when a node requests its name. If we want this, some extension to CoAP would be required to deliver the "intended request" with the unsolicited response (or OBSERVE notification?), so it can be properly cached at the client. For OBSERVE specifically, there were also some more use cases put forward, such as RFC 8490 (DNS Stateful Operations) and RFC 8765 (DNS Push Notifications), which might be less constructed and less HTTP-ey use cases to include considerations on OBSERVE in DoC. Cheers, Martine [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lenders-dns-over-coap/ [2] https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/113/materials/slides-113-core-dns-queries-over-coap-doc-00 From nobody Fri Mar 25 05:13:50 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F9E13A11CD for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 05:13:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p8cRHB24DFBF for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 05:13:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outpost1.zedat.fu-berlin.de (outpost1.zedat.fu-berlin.de [130.133.4.66]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 373813A11C6 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 05:13:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from inpost2.zedat.fu-berlin.de ([130.133.4.69]) by outpost.zedat.fu-berlin.de (Exim 4.95) for core@ietf.org with esmtps (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (envelope-from ) id 1nXip5-00082i-Su; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 13:13:43 +0100 Received: from dhcp-8071.meeting.ietf.org ([31.133.128.113]) by inpost2.zedat.fu-berlin.de (Exim 4.95) for core@ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (envelope-from ) id 1nXip5-002kbL-M0; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 13:13:43 +0100 Message-ID: <2fc8d13d-11cd-dd8a-6f9f-84c63a339737@fu-berlin.de> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 13:13:42 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.7.0 Content-Language: en-US To: "core@ietf.org" From: Martine Sophie Lenders Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Original-Sender: m.lenders@fu-berlin.de X-Originating-IP: 31.133.128.113 Archived-At: Subject: [core] DNS over CoAP: How abstract should the draft be? X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:13:49 -0000 Hi, during today's meeting, I was asked to put the four discussion points I presented in my talk on DoC [1] on the list. Here is the discussion point on how abstract the draft should be (slide 14 of [2]). Klaus proposed in GitHub issue #18 to focus less on protocol details and rather to just define a REST API for how to fetch DNS information from a DoC server. The question is, if such a more abstract specification is what would be more desirable and if the "how to implement over CoAP" should be more relegated to the Appendix or another document. Cheers, Martine [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lenders-dns-over-coap/ [2] https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/113/materials/slides-113-core-dns-queries-over-coap-doc-00 [3] https://github.com/anr-bmbf-pivot/draft-dns-over-coap/issues/18 From nobody Fri Mar 25 06:31:45 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EFBC3A125D for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 06:31:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lRa-4-YZSQln for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 06:31:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 05DAF3A1255 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 06:31:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (p5089ad4f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.173.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4KQ3033JMHzDCf6; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 14:31:30 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.80.82.1.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <2fc8d13d-11cd-dd8a-6f9f-84c63a339737@fu-berlin.de> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 14:31:29 +0100 Cc: "core@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <2fc8d13d-11cd-dd8a-6f9f-84c63a339737@fu-berlin.de> To: Martine Sophie Lenders X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.80.82.1.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] DNS over CoAP: How abstract should the draft be? X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 13:31:44 -0000 On 25. Mar 2022, at 13:13, Martine Sophie Lenders = wrote: >=20 > Klaus proposed in GitHub issue #18 to focus less on protocol details = and rather to just define a REST API for how to fetch DNS information = from a DoC server. >=20 > The question is, if such a more abstract specification is what would = be more desirable and if the "how to implement over CoAP" should be more = relegated to the Appendix or another document. What is better about leaving this open instead of simply defining it? Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Fri Mar 25 06:34:14 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02C3E3A125E for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 06:34:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7Ij0T1rD3DlB for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 06:34:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 75AA73A125D for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 06:34:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (p5089ad4f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.173.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4KQ32y1PdTzDCcM; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 14:34:01 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.80.82.1.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 14:33:58 +0100 Cc: "core@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <2fc8d13d-11cd-dd8a-6f9f-84c63a339737@fu-berlin.de> To: Martine Sophie Lenders X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.80.82.1.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] DNS over CoAP: How abstract should the draft be? X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 13:34:13 -0000 On 25. Mar 2022, at 14:31, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > What is better about leaving this open instead of simply defining it? Maybe I misunderstood the question. I think Klaus may be pointing out the =E2=80=9Crestatement = anti-pattern=E2=80=9D: We don=E2=80=99t need text in the draft that = explains how CoAP works (except maybe in examples). So you would explain the protocol in terms of CoAP=E2=80=99s service, = not in terms of CoAP=E2=80=99s individual messages that CoAP uses to = provide this service. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Fri Mar 25 08:36:57 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 032AB3A1775 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 08:36:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MP-Cq-xopdLh for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 08:36:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw1-x112c.google.com (mail-yw1-x112c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::112c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B39A83A1773 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 08:36:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw1-x112c.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-2e5757b57caso87147337b3.4 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 08:36:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=bIaBIOfZuwTvq7w7NlQZwjDjHe0XoBhnHgBJCqNCpTA=; b=CqonShYwprYwGgrgQaKwfZHnmBnBjJXzEwwj1MxarSyogOFtHRyaY1jG/Mtt7Ey6Aj LQlTo3PhvTKps8LWmlNqv2U0hEVLlOJnzq/xMvOhT4SXsTlQOTq69KMEK6DcvSKmWpkT bwka+tKM5foJIx8RYXU8N8ND0f3LGLU3uI7Fi6/77J/igTzvkvnmER1vEGV7OySKQOWa 0QNyv6eN3IDeNbl1lBNa+6cbO7mPD67YjhBM7F6ympEgCLpw7Z/SrxfNisfwKZmrv1XC FsxEczTZUO8z9JfH0CkXeCFiJpF4ZTHYPMYEVpuQ9rliZWlRh2WyH9R5S9UQcff0s8tD 6amA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=bIaBIOfZuwTvq7w7NlQZwjDjHe0XoBhnHgBJCqNCpTA=; b=jyvGCx0vQWUP6Xneu4Ah3lf9Utw/Y3EW+W5Tc/WpOTiKDDTneho8AXULS8RLQ/ahGC mdlmWYcNIDW0NJLpgNotZdcRSDop5GFdwirRxYlgwIQs3OX04Zzrn6BN8UjhFbfS/JpB uyBYNf935GPFeUCsSTj0yY+3LUL7Nc4Dgf+FkfzTuztBqTVU8qIbfUBPTDGk9gpn064t 8I7hCHgNGEju13EcQm6rnPxNIKKtTk1rBoYYKHyrr9nKe175APwCjna6Ek1siH4rVYtI N6C13+/3yONE/mnwT0YE+DD5gwH8IDHqF5W5Dm1uGKw3ec9C3lR9obYoOYaMKodAd/Pi ImtA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532V7R7FxUoUPOhdKVIFZhdrmutP2XyCDlGA9IvRUHVQIWOvSLMm yJL81F9Q4tISmYkz9ExGKpvQERFh5UeURqcMl4er8A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxtzQO0pnXnNoK59A4QxZQTFx7cMMKJuNYielUacNWaXSPYiysrTIJt3ZdczerQKiTb1e7bzcbkGRGXjpjyjLg= X-Received: by 2002:a81:5845:0:b0:2e5:a75d:ed20 with SMTP id m66-20020a815845000000b002e5a75ded20mr11134375ywb.110.1648222593064; Fri, 25 Mar 2022 08:36:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <32267.1648146701@dooku> <131810E8-5D08-4574-A9D2-1518A8F09745@tzi.org> <9C3ADD5E-6B10-4592-B258-9569313C90F8@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <9C3ADD5E-6B10-4592-B258-9569313C90F8@tzi.org> From: Andy Bierman Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 08:36:22 -0700 Message-ID: To: Carsten Bormann Cc: Michael Richardson , Core Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002bb91f05db0cbae4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] SID file --- status entry for allocation X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 15:36:53 -0000 --0000000000002bb91f05db0cbae4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 7:23 PM Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 24. Mar 2022, at 23:08, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > What are the use-cases for marking some SIDs within a range as stable, > > and other SIDs in the same range as unstable? > > There is quite some benefit from keeping the SIDs used by a module close > together. > If you plan for evolution, you keep some free space in the SID range > allocated for a module. > So the bis version of a module can expand into that free space first > before needing to allocate a second range. > > > The ranges are already intentionally small so "SID waste" is minimized. > > There is a tradeoff here, and I would expect we arrive at some rule of > thumb for how many SIDs we want to keep available in the SID range used f= or > a module and its revisions (e.g., keep 1/3 for expansion?). > > So I don=E2=80=99t think the granularity of stable/unstable assignment ca= n be per > range, it really needs to be per SID. > > The per-SID entry flag allows for non-contiguous stable vs. unstable SIDs. Is this really needed? SID_base +17 and +19 are stable but +18 is unstable? If not, then a simple 'block-used' leaf should work: // if any SIDs left in a range at RFC publication then last-used will be less // than entry-point + size - 1 { entry-point=3D2000 size=3D40 last-used=3D2039 }, { entry-point=3D6000 size=3D40 last-used=3D6004 } Whatever the changes are, the SID file draft should contain normative text explaining exactly how this 'status=3Dunstable' flag is used in the SID file. It should be possible for multiple independent implementations of a SID file generator tool to be written, from the RFC. It should be possible for such tools to produce the same exact series of SID files, for the same exact set of input YANG modules. The plan seems to be just to publish whatever pyang generates. How will anybody know if the SID file is correct? Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > Andy --0000000000002bb91f05db0cbae4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 7:23 PM Carst= en Bormann <cabo@tzi.o= rg> wrote:
andy@yumaworks.com> wrote:
>
> What are the use-cases for marking some SIDs within a range as stable,=
> and other SIDs in the same range as unstable?

There is quite some benefit from keeping the SIDs used by a module close to= gether.
If you plan for evolution, you keep some free space in the SID range alloca= ted for a module.
So the bis version of a module can expand into that free space first before= needing to allocate a second range.

> The ranges are already intentionally small so "SID waste" is= minimized.

There is a tradeoff here, and I would expect we arrive at some rule of thum= b for how many SIDs we want to keep available in the SID range used for a m= odule and its revisions (e.g., keep 1/3 for expansion?).

So I don=E2=80=99t think the granularity of stable/unstable assignment can = be per range, it really needs to be per SID.



The per-SID entry flag = allows for non-contiguous stable vs. unstable SIDs.
Is this reall= y needed?=C2=A0 =C2=A0SID_base +17 and +19 are stable but=C2=A0+18 is unsta= ble?
If not, then a simple 'block-used' leaf should work:=

// if any SIDs left in a range at RFC publication= then last-used will be less
// than entry-point=C2=A0+ size - 1<= /div>
{
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 entry-point=3D2000
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 size=3D40<= br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 last-used=3D2039
},
{
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 entry-point= =3D6000
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 size=3D40
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 last-used=3D6004
}

Whatever the changes are, the SID file draft sh= ould contain normative text explaining
exactly how this 'stat= us=3Dunstable' flag is used in the SID file.

I= t should be possible for multiple independent=C2=A0implementations of a SID= file generator
tool to be written, from the RFC.=C2=A0 It should= be possible for such tools to produce
the same exact series of S= ID files, for the same exact set of input YANG modules.

The plan seems to be just to publish whatever pyang generates.
<= div>How will anybody know if the SID file is correct?

<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

Andy
=C2=A0
--0000000000002bb91f05db0cbae4-- From nobody Sat Mar 26 05:42:51 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D0CB3A0933; Sat, 26 Mar 2022 05:42:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l4iHKjQ30I6n; Sat, 26 Mar 2022 05:42:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [IPv6:2a01:7e00:e000:2bb::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CEC933A08C6; Sat, 26 Mar 2022 05:42:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [62.218.44.74]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BBDDB1F458; Sat, 26 Mar 2022 12:42:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id BC2DB1A01DE; Sat, 26 Mar 2022 13:42:05 +0100 (CET) From: Michael Richardson To: uta@ietf.org, core@ietf.org, iotops@ietf.org X-Attribution: mcr X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7.1; GNU Emacs 26.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 13:42:05 +0100 Message-ID: <59686.1648298525@dooku> Archived-At: Subject: [core] comments on draft-ietf-uta-tls13-iot-profile-04: X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 12:42:18 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain I read draft-ietf-uta-tls13-iot-profile-04 today. Thank you Hannes for presenting it at IOTOPS. To be, it is precisely this kind of thing that IOTOPS was created for. 1) I feel that the 4.25 Too Early allocation for CoAP could use a bit more explanation, and probably there needs to be some more clear review at CORE. (maybe it already happened and I missed it?) Reading through the lines, it appears that a server that can't handle early data needs to send an error code. But such a server probably doesn't know about the error code. I would have thought it should just hang on to the data until the (D)TLS negotiation is complete. I'm also concerned that this requires too much cross-layer communication between DTLS layer and CoAP layer. 2) A long thread at LAMPS two years suggests that the term "Intermediate CA" applies only to cross-certification authoritiy bridges, and the term "Subordinate CA" should be used. That this is consistent with history going back to RFC4949. 3) While section 10 on SNI does not say *how* to use DoH or DPRIVE to provide for confidentiality of names that are looked up, a naive use of DoH with Google/Cloudflare/etc. by IoT devices would be a problem for almost all enterprises that wish to filter the DNS used by IoT devices, and to use DNS canaries to identify malware. Given that such an involved discussion is not in scope for this document, it might be better just to refer to the ADD WG without mentioning specific solutions. I am, in general, not convinced that encrypted SNI serves any purpose for most IoT devices. 4) section 15 There is much discussion about what goes into the certificates. I didn't really understand why that is in this document. Validation of server certificates is well covered in RFC6125, I think. Validation of client certificates (whether factory provisioned IDevIDs, or locally enrolled LDevIDs) is a topic that I care a lot about, and this text is inadequate. As the (industrial) IoT market embraces IDevID certificates, there is some concern that different markets will put different requirements on IDevID contents. So far it does not appear that anyone has created a situation where a single (fat) IDevID certificate couldn't be used in a variety of market verticals, the concern remains. It was my intention to introduce a document about this issue. I think that it's something that only the IETF can do. Perhaps that would fit into this UTA document, or perhaps parts of this section 15 goes into another document. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQGzBAEBCgAdFiEEow/1qDVgAbWL2zxYcAKuwszYgEMFAmI/Ch0ACgkQcAKuwszY gENN4wv+Nr0vkaKlaI0ihlhfwiUQRtro83BoZ6TrgCofDtZLebDqwCI+tbg4isrM CBKD+4rcHJdwmEaMPR0GbdWB9bAxydE33J5JbN11UU8IE0hut1XUzrdm9e4PJHjt Gp2UjivwF8YmN5wysiyj4NT60HkAtmHxPWhZWzRzqIEzkllSsokQbvqZgOS3lnQs nfPW9xh3xD+g8vTPoFwcJxvw1XnKVeAFn1usfKK2mjD8NyeAl4ooAkuDseWZoXoy xfy0RVM5pZSjABu1dKaeGmemsWBGUSPsqO/lPhP7w103h5Gd6n2zNdvvk/ui679L Tw8Nk0mm6F4jl89qft+PRqYv8csp1+zv8k383RrXCGC9oS0r2YlYbn7U06IVuevq CDw7+MbOleU9czLeHtuHU4yc7PAqs79fexy7x1Wuhs9COte6jUXb5kFdFfpeBNw9 szv83o9MsLsJYGHqinskWbfVViBHMQUbiRDkfURi182KT4DUyFnVDKomDm3OPoZU HHjhxx/B =UtqA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Mar 28 00:02:51 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0A813A0B68 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 00:02:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J0J4qY7oRgPD for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 00:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [IPv6:2a01:7e00:e000:2bb::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C42C63A0BB4 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 00:02:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [193.43.158.229]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A4A751F45E; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 07:02:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 92B7A1A0285; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 09:02:37 +0200 (CEST) From: Michael Richardson To: Andy Bierman , Carsten Bormann , Core In-reply-to: References: <32267.1648146701@dooku> <131810E8-5D08-4574-A9D2-1518A8F09745@tzi.org> Comments: In-reply-to Andy Bierman message dated "Thu, 24 Mar 2022 15:08:51 -0700." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7.1; GNU Emacs 26.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 09:02:37 +0200 Message-ID: <85894.1648450957@dooku> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] SID file --- status entry for allocation X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 07:02:48 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andy Bierman wrote: > Module foo initially has 1 assignment range > All I-Ds leading to first RFC: { entry-point=3D2000 size=3D40 stable= =3Dfalse > } > Publish the first RFC (locking the assignment range forever!) > { entry-point=3D2000 size=3D40 stable=3Dtrue } We prefered not to say stable=3Dtrue/false, on the assumption that there mi= ght in the future be a third value. So "status=3Dstable" > What are the use-cases for marking some SIDs within a range as stable, > and other SIDs in the same range as unstable? Because when in the I-D stage for a RFCXXXXbis, we need to keep the SIDs allocated by RFCXXXX stable, but the new ones from XXXXbis (an ID) could be renumbered without conseuqnece. =2D-=20 Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQGzBAEBCgAdFiEEow/1qDVgAbWL2zxYcAKuwszYgEMFAmJBXY0ACgkQcAKuwszY gEPo4wv/Sb2DOBUnB+bQWYjdbkquwjFu9Gcd1QVyobtWjaGRz2F4vH2MAd2ZXm1T ucHACPvBtQB42z7bcCG5ojC7vKfxLlC3umIFnX/LBuWE8ulhSy3d2/Uft5K1XClb e609v0ZK3zcj7lMblX5muS7Df+MSP25xG9ensysugM7VQZecGbhMLK3XRJiLY6x9 ZiX8dZkHhVrtNJzqX79Fv246RhLyRsVtKMO3bdthPxLu0u8oHcNAHB5c3juIWmnA YCb/USNfJrLGQZWzEpU3lGmSlk8qSAOwRM88Bqo7TV7UutJHZkg14VSin9IMy9hh s0bsCG0EpPxoo6fzIjUjrafS1Jqiy/D0dDb84CVdKsMIBw6ZydL4XitGdTsRd7mC i8R6i8ZOF9TaYAojIFVtNfcQmJY7T3iWt3xoRMFMbxwe9WGFJQqvaEpEMXEeyjtW SFyXujNDATmBxc4ooGrkK+5lgnACUpCi/nWcseybKj5sot8RJKG2gJAePtCp7bRf 9w4f9LOB =6bBb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Mar 28 00:05:27 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC0A73A0BCA for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 00:05:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j-N8RbmOfqok for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 00:05:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [IPv6:2a01:7e00:e000:2bb::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6EEA23A0BB4 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 00:05:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [193.43.158.229]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B34431F45E; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 07:05:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 732851A0285; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 09:05:15 +0200 (CEST) From: Michael Richardson To: Andy Bierman , Carsten Bormann , Core In-reply-to: References: <32267.1648146701@dooku> <131810E8-5D08-4574-A9D2-1518A8F09745@tzi.org> <9C3ADD5E-6B10-4592-B258-9569313C90F8@tzi.org> Comments: In-reply-to Andy Bierman message dated "Fri, 25 Mar 2022 08:36:22 -0700." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7.1; GNU Emacs 26.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 09:05:15 +0200 Message-ID: <86105.1648451115@dooku> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] SID file --- status entry for allocation X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 07:05:26 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andy Bierman wrote: > The per-SID entry flag allows for non-contiguous stable vs. unstable > SIDs. Is this really needed? SID_base +17 and +19 are stable but +18 > is unstable? If not, then a simple 'block-used' leaf should work: 1) You assume two ranges, which many modules will not have. 2) SIDs created during RFCXXXXbis are unstable. > It should be possible for multiple independent implementations of a S= ID > file generator tool to be written, from the RFC. It should be possib= le > for such tools to produce the same exact series of SID files, for the > same exact set of input YANG modules. Agreed. > The plan seems to be just to publish whatever pyang generates. How > will anybody know if the SID file is correct? I agree that we need to examine .sid files careful for awhile. Certainly, core-sid can't go to Internet Standard until there is a second implementation. (pyang being the first) =20 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQGzBAEBCgAdFiEEow/1qDVgAbWL2zxYcAKuwszYgEMFAmJBXisACgkQcAKuwszY gEPo/Qv/YMUj2A60BCP2bORNAzetWAZoVOs7YtrAHIDahz/A9ZD+CUg4P+cxXNjU ubpYXNmx4a0NzR6Lag1adlGmcBBn0JdBY6XdTy3eEEaO+A+QQDxdzkCEZbdt2kC0 Q94P/ScN9N4ghpLfTAIy93yCpz3LTXE4IcIijnqfQeTw4/qG4Aoz+fjQeyLIvrge iiAJSB5oThRLhwfT6P9cb4q7xFX3GMLthzuFlYMogsnNRYqA6pc+OZHv0/GJazlZ qhQRGAbt6w3Vp94MGmg9F/CoAbmlKAOo73IWNQRIjNqbmef9QGyghJI6BX6Muvb5 SwtmlYtW7KARnmjzwHpXcE0kMSrcm4RXEJSoihPnujYmrsBUUW9M8t+CrDTs+HBR hYyi3Ul3LzocjXdCS8OptPollbQ/D9mNckdbE07+VD0XOkhbp2MAnwTlSIcq5UvX A+CAvQmhPckZ2g/Yb/upVrKVayJ9neukgYPlcWB5w2lsiX69r50ry1E0iEg77oIS 12abY/M3 =4Esh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Mar 28 03:21:44 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 672D33A1152 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 03:21:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 45Dm1CRW-rCJ for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 03:21:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-xb2c.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5CF383A1142 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 03:21:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2c.google.com with SMTP id x20so25008916ybi.5 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 03:21:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=r2JX7V4eXxPD0njxltVZmFRNXIfQLFzsnpku1F7pJqg=; b=VrsD/Tn/687rQ7GtoelmxpV/Apeq6b5a4bf9BcfprZ9cQTNYPIqwYuYumkfZb9vXJ1 P9+EHbI+IvYljep2jnNjQEDkjHXdig7JX/ijqBpRXFoZbDJb/FlDgwxolPv8ehgpOo5P qiV3fbm19QwnRUjxDU5Hc7pvZFkHWtTx8BCZgSIl0hbCAoZ70+jSLDfVa9jHFFKB/i58 mPKzIAv2hE+jq2qOe1UkppKqcG2f8mPLIciphUqTXn0fQt1tZ+wH8vpp9PmwK8LgG7+T Sl8/afkZ2unH8pkPlTRf9bpPNyZ/ACYJMAZxdkZ7g/AMtuBfom7vJl9LdFEKegQSR9ZB Jrig== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=r2JX7V4eXxPD0njxltVZmFRNXIfQLFzsnpku1F7pJqg=; b=LJbBTyWa552z2W44oVq1OkkjbCO5feyJT4ACtc5joQF23oJBkdeIStrjUqYTqFumAN bPxvA4zW5Z5F6Sew3pszE/DvJVlj0x7g+u8UPIkvgTcPyxnQVhsjdLhPRaTqdE/OKhk4 9I/ziZNE6nsl/pZBRuJVQuD0YuXonqv7HQLbJtmMgnTv3NK5HqBsMhbb5jIW47lo5Hm1 atmZ0iTlLfkf4UcrbEqoQUYHBpAFkbTwnoKDoEccRykglGQ9SttogoJ6Q6rHAr3Bm7+D AQhex+txN3iq+6V5K83GO4H2H3l5ME03VkNI9eWydIIPNIXdMpqCMyylSbyA2Ly+KK6Z hQtw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM53192q08jWO1i09ss5Apfsr6n0+3BxUTJQsHbTchJHz90qDy3a5i KRFcBp3k0REiTHP9lbPY7s7qvjkgd8BJfcoVa11f+A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxmr9UT9Xvp6ICYcuXBijs/qnCf9xkN/najUVjaEeXPCziADOtYuGWZgMBQgClRBM9UN1DC9xfrCPWLdjKcEhs= X-Received: by 2002:a25:be8a:0:b0:608:67d7:22fe with SMTP id i10-20020a25be8a000000b0060867d722femr20721657ybk.336.1648462895115; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 03:21:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <32267.1648146701@dooku> <131810E8-5D08-4574-A9D2-1518A8F09745@tzi.org> <85894.1648450957@dooku> In-Reply-To: <85894.1648450957@dooku> From: Andy Bierman Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 03:21:24 -0700 Message-ID: To: Michael Richardson Cc: Carsten Bormann , Core Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004a038305db44ad9a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] SID file --- status entry for allocation X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 10:21:42 -0000 --0000000000004a038305db44ad9a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 12:02 AM Michael Richardson wrote: > > Andy Bierman wrote: > > Module foo initially has 1 assignment range > > > All I-Ds leading to first RFC: { entry-point=2000 size=40 > stable=false > > } > > > Publish the first RFC (locking the assignment range forever!) > > > { entry-point=2000 size=40 stable=true } > > We prefered not to say stable=true/false, on the assumption that there > might > in the future be a third value. So "status=stable" > > > What are the use-cases for marking some SIDs within a range as > stable, > > and other SIDs in the same range as unstable? > > Because when in the I-D stage for a RFCXXXXbis, we need to keep the SIDs > allocated by RFCXXXX stable, but the new ones from XXXXbis (an ID) could be > renumbered without conseuqnece. > I assume the exact procedures for automatic SID file generation will be updated to reflect the changes being made. It looks like the procedure is not manual and ad-hoc, IMO dramatically reducing its robustness and reliability I think the statements about permanent assignments is false: SIDs are assigned permanently. Items introduced by a new revision of a YANG module are added to the list of SIDs already assigned. Assignment of SIDs to YANG items are usually automated as discussed in Appendix B, which also discusses some cases where manual interventions may be appropriate. > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- > > > Andy --0000000000004a038305db44ad9a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 12:02 AM Mich= ael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sand= elman.ca> wrote:

Andy Bierman <an= dy@yumaworks.com> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Module foo initially has 1 assignment range

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > All I-Ds leading to first RFC: { entry-point=3D2000 size= =3D40 stable=3Dfalse
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > }

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Publish the first RFC (locking the assignment range fore= ver!)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > { entry-point=3D2000 size=3D40 stable=3Dtrue }

We prefered not to say stable=3Dtrue/false, on the assumption that there mi= ght
in the future be a third value.=C2=A0 So "status=3Dstable"

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > What are the use-cases for marking some SIDs within a ra= nge as stable,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > and other SIDs in the same range as unstable?

Because when in the I-D stage for a RFCXXXXbis, we need to keep the SIDs allocated by RFCXXXX stable, but the new ones from XXXXbis (an ID) could be=
renumbered without conseuqnece.


I assume the exact procedures=C2=A0for automatic SID file generatio= n will be updated
to reflect the changes being made.=C2=A0 It loo= ks like the procedure is not manual and ad-hoc,
IMO dramatically = reducing its robustness and reliability

I think th= e statements about permanent assignments is false:

   SIDs are assigned =
permanently.  Items introduced by a new revision of
   a YANG module are added to the list of SIDs already assigned.
   Assignment of SIDs to YANG items are usually automated as discussed
   in Appendix B, which also discusses some cases where manual
   interventions may be appropriate.





--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
=C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-



Andy
=C2=A0
--0000000000004a038305db44ad9a-- From nobody Mon Mar 28 06:22:55 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 539F73A0DD8 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 06:22:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ackl-io.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hvZKqquIsAi6 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 06:22:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd31.google.com (mail-io1-xd31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E0B663A0DF1 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 06:22:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd31.google.com with SMTP id e22so16962832ioe.11 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 06:22:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ackl-io.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=THMk8p2KudDd2TgfQRaGi+8/9GBPb146oq5NnDMYbcE=; b=IeVxXFwhR1yk/BrwdSOhKhtrWKtNPoRsDKDYwlrssJjdFf/eVX/ysDvPDMmEHShSRe s4ZNNqgcBC8RpsIiKUi+s6VsI6lJJ9pCv6fgMZiOBglQ95/FbOXtU0sxj906NeDe+tPJ PNp9hsgITtVkI9wtNut/9Cvtaft8O4hyoqZoHJ0cfXEO0ICL169ogyLYpmHgCho8rE8l XeX1XLpK639cKvXF/Blg1H1UcYgPI4Hm6+WK6BfaUIqF4+QIoHw7dr9EIrjrLTVuL/+q vNGaSG31+rupDis/8ohMOin7B9ce1aRs0/13CghRPs9yPNK1PvfgVpL/sAGDHkWmSiFE IIHA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=THMk8p2KudDd2TgfQRaGi+8/9GBPb146oq5NnDMYbcE=; b=FnQd4HvxTMgjx/3MYvqpAFNA1r0J3v3VUJwtUfJUSPLIgLVPe111rSB8S1JiBgoLZL gMxf1cAhFSkqLzL3HyUZ1zBVAJeIYQqWLjCRVzSgk858qRixLgt7zRtD30dbFqS1g4nV 0yREdBGP0Ip5jM1dE0hwoq9bTMYrqOrnsHMMdWMwS0MU87icGnGjEfZjTvl96cfOamzo SqcAjS5WBDG15a5uqoi/kang7IN+cu7kU2E6spJuUwDBEBk8mqqPsA7pYlu7J2kcrDjw 1qvsTaicaCbipSQcW2Qm/WLYhtjU5c2++ElFIgUCIRKDuGgUrlx+27iMyJ/mLD9fTB9Y pw0Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Y6edxOgCp3+fPHMLwidoINZkf/F9EAlAichw8CYonAYz7JNPo LelyoH+s3d/CP5/hGaFp05cyAOQiT42Hmmfq56po+GaEN7BAiw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzd6jpzMczNf9w5XwyWjBYlo6GB3w+rDkbNJqNdL8MyJJ0xqZsWD3bHTuN3mJoNnPMbvWwHmiUkdM3w6xHxa7U= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:7a49:0:b0:645:d134:830f with SMTP id k9-20020a6b7a49000000b00645d134830fmr6299522iop.136.1648473764405; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 06:22:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <32267.1648146701@dooku> In-Reply-To: <32267.1648146701@dooku> From: Alexander Pelov Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 15:22:33 +0200 Message-ID: To: Michael Richardson Cc: "core@ietf.org WG (core@ietf.org)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002639e205db473564" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] SID file --- status entry for allocation X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 13:22:51 -0000 --0000000000002639e205db473564 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear Michael, all, Thanks for getting the discussion to the mailing list! It is indeed exciting to see the IETF in-person meetings allowing for these discussions to take place. I am not sure I understand the premise of your mail, and the discussion that follows touches upon several possibilities. If you revise a module, you provide a new YANG file (with a different name/revision), and if you need to change the semantics of some item.. well, you need a new SID. Can you please provide an example that needs adding something new and cannot be solved as currently it stands? Cheers, Alexander On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 7:33 PM Michael Richardson wrote: > > Today in discussion with ADs Rob Wilton and Francesca, it became clear that > we really need to add a status entry to the SID file for allocations. > > The use case is where we have taken a YANG module to RFC, and have created > a > stable set of SID allocations for it. Then, we revise the module. During > that process of doing draft-foo-bar-rfcBIS, we might want to reset the SID > numbering as we add/subtract/modify the extension proposals. > > So we need to know which parts of the SID file we can reset, and which > parts > we can not. > > This is a rudamentary pull request to do that. I am uncertain if this YANG > module parses as yet. I haven't done any work on sid.py to implement this. > > Please let me know if I captured the proposal well enough. > I don't know what to call the thing which is not stable. > I feel that "unstable" does not quite capture the proper intent. > > https://github.com/core-wg/yang-cbor/pull/141 > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- > > > > _______________________________________________ > core mailing list > core@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core > --0000000000002639e205db473564 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Michael, all,

Thanks for getting t= he discussion to the mailing list! It is indeed exciting to see the IETF in= -person meetings allowing for these discussions to take place.
I am not sure I understand the premise of your mail, and the d= iscussion that follows touches upon several possibilities.
If you= revise a module, you provide a new YANG file (with a different name/revisi= on), and if you need to change the semantics of some item.. well, you need = a new SID.

Can you please provide an example that = needs adding something new and cannot be solved as currently it stands?

Cheers,
Alexander

=




On Thu, Mar 24, 2022= at 7:33 PM Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:

Today in discussion with ADs Rob Wilton and Francesca, it became clear that=
we really need to add a status entry to the SID file for allocations.

The use case is where we have taken a YANG module to RFC, and have created = a
stable set of SID allocations for it.=C2=A0 Then, we revise the module. Dur= ing
that process of doing draft-foo-bar-rfcBIS, we might want to reset the SID<= br> numbering as we add/subtract/modify the extension proposals.

So we need to know which parts of the SID file we can reset, and which part= s
we can not.

This is a rudamentary pull request to do that.=C2=A0 I am uncertain if this= YANG
module parses as yet.=C2=A0 I haven't done any work on sid.py to implem= ent this.

Please let me know if I captured the proposal well enough.
I don't know what to call the thing which is not stable.
I feel that "unstable" does not quite capture the proper intent.<= br>
https://github.com/core-wg/yang-cbor/pull/141

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
=C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-



_______________________________________________
core mailing list
core@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core
--0000000000002639e205db473564-- From nobody Mon Mar 28 07:07:14 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EEB73A111F for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 07:07:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cyhl21Xct0d7 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 07:07:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 25A4D3A116D for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 07:07:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089ad4f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.173.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4KRvdf07JWzDCnD; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 16:07:01 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 16:07:01 +0200 Cc: Michael Richardson , "core@ietf.org WG (core@ietf.org)" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 670169221.567598-4c8d787bdc2fb7cffb11613bb1524e59 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <32267.1648146701@dooku> To: Alexander Pelov X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] SID file --- status entry for allocation X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 14:07:11 -0000 On 2022-03-28, at 15:22, Alexander Pelov wrote: >=20 > Dear Michael, all, >=20 > Thanks for getting the discussion to the mailing list! It is indeed = exciting to see the IETF in-person meetings allowing for these = discussions to take place. >=20 > I am not sure I understand the premise of your mail, and the = discussion that follows touches upon several possibilities. > If you revise a module, you provide a new YANG file (with a different = name/revision), and if you need to change the semantics of some item.. = well, you need a new SID. Hi Alex, we have to distinguish two cases here: (1) The YANG module was unstable (e.g., early I-D state). In this case, we can do what we want, including changing the (also = unstable) SID-name mapping. (2) The YANG module was stable (e.g., we are working on a -bis for a = published RFC). In this case, the SID-name mapping already has been marked stable. I also think it would be highly inadvisable to =E2=80=9Cchange the = semantics of some item=E2=80=9D even in the YANG module =E2=80=94 if you = want to do that, give it a new name, too, which allows you to allocate a = new SID for the new name. But the old name will keep its stable SID. The reason we want to do this is: (1) to keep the SID-name mapping a function =E2=80=94 there never can be = two YANG names associated with a single SID. (2) to keep the name-SID mapping =E2=80=9Cmostly" a function =E2=80=94 = while we cannot completely prevent several independent SID allocations = for a YANG name, one objective is to have a single =E2=80=9Ccanonical=E2=80= =9D SID mapping for each YANG name, preferably with the same provenance = that the YANG module itself has. Yes, this still has to be written up at this level of clarity, which I = plan to do in the next 10 days or so. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 > Can you please provide an example that needs adding something new and = cannot be solved as currently it stands? >=20 > Cheers, > Alexander >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 7:33 PM Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 > Today in discussion with ADs Rob Wilton and Francesca, it became clear = that > we really need to add a status entry to the SID file for allocations. >=20 > The use case is where we have taken a YANG module to RFC, and have = created a > stable set of SID allocations for it. Then, we revise the module. = During > that process of doing draft-foo-bar-rfcBIS, we might want to reset the = SID > numbering as we add/subtract/modify the extension proposals. >=20 > So we need to know which parts of the SID file we can reset, and which = parts > we can not. >=20 > This is a rudamentary pull request to do that. I am uncertain if this = YANG > module parses as yet. I haven't done any work on sid.py to implement = this. >=20 > Please let me know if I captured the proposal well enough. > I don't know what to call the thing which is not stable. > I feel that "unstable" does not quite capture the proper intent. >=20 > https://github.com/core-wg/yang-cbor/pull/141 >=20 > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > core mailing list > core@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core > _______________________________________________ > core mailing list > core@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core From nobody Mon Mar 28 07:30:40 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BC443A1224 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 07:30:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ackl-io.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J7TOtg3Nt-aV for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 07:30:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd34.google.com (mail-io1-xd34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 442943A121F for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 07:30:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd34.google.com with SMTP id g21so4051181iom.13 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 07:30:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ackl-io.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=rqJWUoLQM43FBaCcW8Jw2x/f1/p3672HIFaDjdcman8=; b=eyNjMSkiycNbVMvE+J7JAwvITnZQQNzP96V8Fn/+jPqfW5ntvSA2XsWkGEoE7CM7Wz /JpS5QIVhY76uq42lM1VxAyGV7I6XHz1JBA6e6JkuCzlR0I/JmUdzkZTUFGd1fzqwUuM do/8+/3OPSutydFxlw7X54/P1FYfM5aTAkS8oUgsmwTkKQGPCZaFK3YDa14UN19Wgxee N8irb9viwREhbDyMP0zC+7CuLq7O3KZh/k9ctaVE9jW05wonI7G78Io4AmES4b8YwXxf EsDU+n6WAgSDtZqKaf/Mgw4wSkaA4ukwsN12NafF5a8CHIygjzDXFAmzW9Vmi5dFJWOM nERw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=rqJWUoLQM43FBaCcW8Jw2x/f1/p3672HIFaDjdcman8=; b=VRKps5X3WF48e5bdJgleCL2feNumZT+Jfi/HkmY0OS0AJHkEXQPFvFh2DA1bp4U5Rg xfRidvIzAAKpAVxLU8iHj66aEwVqn/C0hvvQGHOqueceVu7JH+ysBVKWoG7/nNjjPDlv 810lIoVYxaU6gXGoYga9x1Sv5MbKDa9Yaove3FFKg8I+/KSz9cKbrdjZ+rZa2trlYqj5 tdP2Y8uZGAwDi8yLikZCGBGZC4U3cBMtyvz4oA1a/fWH6gaFp0wJIw8K2YowOUCZLkHP cGUaSdi/IM2pqYf7nxMlT0FZsHw3VuKYE2/r0iIHKsNzRQtgTDp7kbxuymN8Of0xQ+M6 uljg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM53181j3g9n9aKP7cn2CfPEd94NenV4RT5EBDJo60tDgx4cSN1czO lv+8TMMco1Uzh765l7jWtgGlaBaEOaS38L0DhjEFGnHowengjg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyXh4h2mU2KikjZGfg+sY4Od5iMsy19voMjs8OMMZHiN2MM1oepup95AsgvX3zxV0N4KAiqY7OuvHOj5B85AhI= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:2401:b0:323:7234:5217 with SMTP id z1-20020a056638240100b0032372345217mr1151906jat.68.1648477831774; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 07:30:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <32267.1648146701@dooku> In-Reply-To: From: Alexander Pelov Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 16:30:21 +0200 Message-ID: To: Carsten Bormann Cc: Michael Richardson , "core@ietf.org WG (core@ietf.org)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000095576305db4827ae" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] SID file --- status entry for allocation X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 14:30:39 -0000 --00000000000095576305db4827ae Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Carsten, Thanks a lot for the clarifications! (Fully agree with the comments on changing the semantics of an item!) I was really looking at which problem we are trying to solve. The "stable/unstable" is already getting to a solution (which may be the best, but I am not sure what the problem is yet). >From what I understand, the problem we are trying to solve is (and I am paraphrasing to see if we are on the same page) to try to limit and have one SID per YANG name. Something like a 'canonical SID' (which would make for a bijective correspondence "YANG name" <-> "canonical SID", for YANG modules that have SID allocations). Is there something else we are trying to solve with the "stable/unstable" solution? Cheers, Alexander On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 4:07 PM Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 2022-03-28, at 15:22, Alexander Pelov wrote: > > > > Dear Michael, all, > > > > Thanks for getting the discussion to the mailing list! It is indeed > exciting to see the IETF in-person meetings allowing for these discussion= s > to take place. > > > > I am not sure I understand the premise of your mail, and the discussion > that follows touches upon several possibilities. > > If you revise a module, you provide a new YANG file (with a different > name/revision), and if you need to change the semantics of some item.. > well, you need a new SID. > > Hi Alex, > > we have to distinguish two cases here: > > (1) The YANG module was unstable (e.g., early I-D state). > In this case, we can do what we want, including changing the (also > unstable) SID-name mapping. > > (2) The YANG module was stable (e.g., we are working on a -bis for a > published RFC). > In this case, the SID-name mapping already has been marked stable. > I also think it would be highly inadvisable to =E2=80=9Cchange the semant= ics of > some item=E2=80=9D even in the YANG module =E2=80=94 if you want to do th= at, give it a new > name, too, which allows you to allocate a new SID for the new name. > But the old name will keep its stable SID. > > The reason we want to do this is: > (1) to keep the SID-name mapping a function =E2=80=94 there never can be = two YANG > names associated with a single SID. > (2) to keep the name-SID mapping =E2=80=9Cmostly" a function =E2=80=94 wh= ile we cannot > completely prevent several independent SID allocations for a YANG name, o= ne > objective is to have a single =E2=80=9Ccanonical=E2=80=9D SID mapping for= each YANG name, > preferably with the same provenance that the YANG module itself has. > > Yes, this still has to be written up at this level of clarity, which I > plan to do in the next 10 days or so. > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > > > > > Can you please provide an example that needs adding something new and > cannot be solved as currently it stands? > > > > Cheers, > > Alexander > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 7:33 PM Michael Richardson < > mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote: > > > > Today in discussion with ADs Rob Wilton and Francesca, it became clear > that > > we really need to add a status entry to the SID file for allocations. > > > > The use case is where we have taken a YANG module to RFC, and have > created a > > stable set of SID allocations for it. Then, we revise the module. Duri= ng > > that process of doing draft-foo-bar-rfcBIS, we might want to reset the > SID > > numbering as we add/subtract/modify the extension proposals. > > > > So we need to know which parts of the SID file we can reset, and which > parts > > we can not. > > > > This is a rudamentary pull request to do that. I am uncertain if this > YANG > > module parses as yet. I haven't done any work on sid.py to implement > this. > > > > Please let me know if I captured the proposal well enough. > > I don't know what to call the thing which is not stable. > > I feel that "unstable" does not quite capture the proper intent. > > > > https://github.com/core-wg/yang-cbor/pull/141 > > > > -- > > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > > -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > core mailing list > > core@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core > > _______________________________________________ > > core mailing list > > core@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core > > --00000000000095576305db4827ae Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi=C2=A0Carsten,

Thank= s a lot for the clarifications! (Fully agree with the comments on changing = the semantics of an item!)

I was really looking at= which problem we are trying to solve.=C2=A0=C2=A0
The "stab= le/unstable" is already getting to a solution=C2=A0(which may be the b= est, but I am not sure what the problem is yet).=C2=A0

=
From what=C2=A0I understand, the=C2=A0problem we are trying to solve i= s (and I am paraphrasing to see if we are on the same page) to try to limit= and have one SID per YANG name. Something like a 'canonical SID' (= which would make for a bijective correspondence "YANG name" <-= > "canonical SID", for YANG modules that have SID allocations)= . Is there something else we are trying to solve with the "stable/unst= able" solution?

Cheers,
Alexander



On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 4:07 PM Carsten B= ormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
<= /div>
On 2022-03-28, at 15= :22, Alexander Pelov <a@a= ckl.io> wrote:
>
> Dear Michael, all,
>
> Thanks for getting the discussion to the mailing list! It is indeed ex= citing to see the IETF in-person meetings allowing for these discussions to= take place.
>
> I am not sure I understand the premise of your mail, and the discussio= n that follows touches upon several possibilities.
> If you revise a module, you provide a new YANG file (with a different = name/revision), and if you need to change the semantics of some item.. well= , you need a new SID.

Hi Alex,

we have to distinguish two cases here:

(1) The YANG module was unstable (e.g., early I-D state).
In this case, we can do what we want, including changing the (also unstable= ) SID-name mapping.

(2) The YANG module was stable (e.g., we are working on a -bis for a publis= hed RFC).
In this case, the SID-name mapping already has been marked stable.
I also think it would be highly inadvisable to =E2=80=9Cchange the semantic= s of some item=E2=80=9D even in the YANG module =E2=80=94 if you want to do= that, give it a new name, too, which allows you to allocate a new SID for = the new name.
But the old name will keep its stable SID.

The reason we want to do this is:
(1) to keep the SID-name mapping a function =E2=80=94 there never can be tw= o YANG names associated with a single SID.
(2) to keep the name-SID mapping =E2=80=9Cmostly" a function =E2=80=94= while we cannot completely prevent several independent SID allocations for= a YANG name, one objective is to have a single =E2=80=9Ccanonical=E2=80=9D= SID mapping for each YANG name, preferably with the same provenance that t= he YANG module itself has.

Yes, this still has to be written up at this level of clarity, which I plan= to do in the next 10 days or so.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


>
> Can you please provide an example that needs adding something new and = cannot be solved as currently it stands?
>
> Cheers,
> Alexander
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 7:33 PM Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>= wrote:
>
> Today in discussion with ADs Rob Wilton and Francesca, it became clear= that
> we really need to add a status entry to the SID file for allocations.<= br> >
> The use case is where we have taken a YANG module to RFC, and have cre= ated a
> stable set of SID allocations for it.=C2=A0 Then, we revise the module= . During
> that process of doing draft-foo-bar-rfcBIS, we might want to reset the= SID
> numbering as we add/subtract/modify the extension proposals.
>
> So we need to know which parts of the SID file we can reset, and which= parts
> we can not.
>
> This is a rudamentary pull request to do that.=C2=A0 I am uncertain if= this YANG
> module parses as yet.=C2=A0 I haven't done any work on sid.py to i= mplement this.
>
> Please let me know if I captured the proposal well enough.
> I don't know what to call the thing which is not stable.
> I feel that "unstable" does not quite capture the proper int= ent.
>
> https://github.com/core-wg/yang-cbor/pull/141<= br> >
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
>=C2=A0 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core

--00000000000095576305db4827ae-- From nobody Mon Mar 28 07:34:59 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 142933A15A4 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 07:34:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ewgGtft2i5pM for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 07:34:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A1453A153C for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 07:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089ad4f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.173.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4KRwFc5XmQzDCj5; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 16:34:44 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 16:34:44 +0200 Cc: Michael Richardson , "core@ietf.org WG (core@ietf.org)" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 670170884.273596-fbefee19de2296598dbb79a6fd83c1b5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4E8666FA-6F9E-48BF-9BF4-05B8EEC177D7@tzi.org> References: <32267.1648146701@dooku> To: Alexander Pelov X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] SID file --- status entry for allocation X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 14:34:58 -0000 On 2022-03-28, at 16:30, Alexander Pelov wrote: >=20 > =46rom what I understand, the problem we are trying to solve is (and I = am paraphrasing to see if we are on the same page) to try to limit and = have one SID per YANG name. Something like a 'canonical SID' (which = would make for a bijective correspondence "YANG name" <-> "canonical = SID", for YANG modules that have SID allocations). Indeed. > Is there something else we are trying to solve with the = "stable/unstable" solution? The main observation is that these SID files may get wings and may turn = up in places where they were not meant to be. Being able to identify = that some of the SID allocations in a SID file are still unstable may = help in avoiding these SIDs turning up in production. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Mar 28 14:04:07 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 350A73A1925 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 14:04:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ackl-io.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J0ZKKhna_pBx for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 14:04:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd33.google.com (mail-io1-xd33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6DD093A1935 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 14:04:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd33.google.com with SMTP id z6so18725407iot.0 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 14:04:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ackl-io.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=fHsf3Z2FPPNevbGv/BhnZTYwagArPqxdB1bYHkI40m8=; b=cP+w22WHjmt4fFUmot4uJEyfTyyJF4BoHIvMHctuzJYHSdHJBQwUm04P0PJRMIcwX4 Dp0R1jCOYqhTvSX7oCfVJh7j1fd7/93OTfaXIVErcK1jUcjeq1eBxljc99d7+JCNgZuO xQLPe+o6s0I0aziPHE+agNmHoiaUElSlFY/WTwE7dSl51Hls1DtwThLkFVEfLWhgaz+n 4GcePfMlpckgzbh4jNyJzRVSD8anGs1mGBLqBl0WfR6u9ogjLblPhxq+uUpS7C4GKVUD ZPFz6j4vi9pYFcGpgnpVLhsAyLFoA9gDGotujDBRu+eVjLzF6kFFoWMJRMgZLry6gfdx MrSw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=fHsf3Z2FPPNevbGv/BhnZTYwagArPqxdB1bYHkI40m8=; b=LQB02WjcsDDLnEZWRDXF0e9r7XPNclJStVcElp7cpHHkI1r6mtI5dD/+gES+woxjno ey58VrAu1qCeDxKaPGk+J22DuFn7oIIoQaoXe15KwF0fICVIlN9MEi+cltqMm9+hEIMj TtOSYY0NYEXeUrljD+pCuyXUysQnXL6bKkmc5+iR0+EQ3p1iejm3JuSq0wWJJKQbPFHD LeVpOMV4TFv6y6J1UMFSrzz8MbfuODc0sSDKfIs/KjwCux+94tM0AM+z9XdUnX0dEogC JvQDLyIJttW6iElcCcBe70x95UBpAsAksErXjfFSi7wGxFxxMc48DhQL6NqBEZa8oOB2 KbsA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531oqDE14SnN2nXpemie3W8cMSvCKACe47dAFT11Ef7tb0XWvJQa 8CBY/jKPuJud3VVkSDIzHIUwQdrKTH0tYZ08x00X9g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxtg7w0OaffA4Xpt7O/6uNTNnK3Qy2Gr48gAm5oSqF5b7a1jh+aF5CDQ0NPELvR/W3vwz5P87eAdltUQVJr9Gg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:341a:b0:649:e793:ba9b with SMTP id n26-20020a056602341a00b00649e793ba9bmr7254853ioz.4.1648501439118; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 14:03:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <32267.1648146701@dooku> <4E8666FA-6F9E-48BF-9BF4-05B8EEC177D7@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <4E8666FA-6F9E-48BF-9BF4-05B8EEC177D7@tzi.org> From: Alexander Pelov Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 23:03:48 +0200 Message-ID: To: Carsten Bormann Cc: Michael Richardson , "core@ietf.org WG (core@ietf.org)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b0d89805db4da655" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] SID file --- status entry for allocation X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 21:04:06 -0000 --000000000000b0d89805db4da655 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi again, Thanks for the clarifications! On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 4:34 PM Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 2022-03-28, at 16:30, Alexander Pelov wrote: > > > > From what I understand, the problem we are trying to solve is (and I am > paraphrasing to see if we are on the same page) to try to limit and have > one SID per YANG name. Something like a 'canonical SID' (which would make > for a bijective correspondence "YANG name" <-> "canonical SID", for YANG > modules that have SID allocations). > > Indeed. It seems to me that the "canonical SID" property is nice to have (but not a must have, because it cannot be really guaranteed). The SID files winding up somewhere are the real pain here -> which is actually simpler to solve if you consider that the definitive allocation is an atomic operation. Say, you have RFC123456.yang, with allocation of SIDs described in RFC123456.SID. Now, you have draft-RFC123456bis.yang -> until this one becomes an RFC, the corresponding SID file can be considered in its entirety as provisional allocation / temporary / draft / unstable. In that sense, the stable/unstable (or other term for the same meaning) works on the file level and is in direct connection to the YANG file. > Is there something else we are trying to solve with the "stable/unstable" > solution? > The main observation is that these SID files may get wings and may turn u= p > in places where they were not meant to be. Being able to identify that > some of the SID allocations in a SID file are still unstable may help in > avoiding these SIDs turning up in production. > During development, to know which SIDs you can regenerate freely and which you CANNOT because they have been allocated in a "parent" module, you only need the full history of the YANG / SID allocation. This you need in any case to do the check, and the per-range stable/unstable option can be seen as a way to ease the life of a tool developer, but cannot be used to actually be trusted. The example is the following: The developers of draft-RFC123456bis.yang have access to both RFC123456.yang and RFC123456.SID. When you allocate SIDs for draft-RFC123456bis.yang, it is a very straightforward operation to make the diff between what's already in RFC123456.SID and what needs to be allocated and in what manner. As a matter of fact, "pyang sid" already does this! Does that make sense? Can we simply have a per-SID-file "draft" property? Cheers, Alexander > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > --000000000000b0d89805db4da655 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi again,

Thanks for the cla= rifications!

On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 4:34 PM Carsten Bormann <= cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
On 2022-03-28, at 16:30, Alexan= der Pelov <a@ackl.io&= gt; wrote:
>
> From what I understand, the problem we are trying to solve is (and I a= m paraphrasing to see if we are on the same page) to try to limit and have = one SID per YANG name. Something like a 'canonical SID' (which woul= d make for a bijective correspondence "YANG name" <-> "= ;canonical SID", for YANG modules that have SID allocations).

Indeed.=C2=A0

It seems to me that the = "canonical SID" property is nice to have (but not a must have, be= cause it cannot be really guaranteed).

The SID fil= es winding up somewhere are the real pain here -> which is actually simp= ler to solve if you consider that the definitive allocation is an atomic op= eration.=C2=A0

Say, you have RFC123456.yang, with = allocation of SIDs described in RFC123456.SID.
Now, you have draf= t-RFC123456bis.yang=C2=A0-> until this one becomes an RFC, the correspon= ding SID file can be considered in its entirety as provisional allocation /= temporary / draft / unstable.=C2=A0

In that sense= , the stable/unstable (or other term for the same meaning) works on the fil= e level and is in direct connection to the YANG file.
=C2= =A0

> Is there something else we are trying to solve with the "stable/u= nstable" solution?=C2=A0

The main observation is that these SID files may get wings and may turn up = in places where they were not meant to be.=C2=A0 Being able to identify tha= t some of the SID allocations in a SID file are still unstable may help in = avoiding these SIDs turning up in production.


During development, to know which SIDs you can r= egenerate freely and which you CANNOT because they have been allocated in a= "parent" module, you only need the full history of the YANG / SI= D allocation. This you need in any case to do the check, and the per-range = stable/unstable option can be seen as a way to ease the life of a tool deve= loper, but cannot be used to actually be trusted.

= The example is the following:
The developers of draft-RFC123456bi= s.yang have access to both RFC123456.yang=C2=A0and=C2=A0RFC123456.SID. When= you allocate SIDs for draft-RFC123456bis.yang, it is a very straightforwar= d=C2=A0operation=C2=A0to make the diff between what's already in RFC123= 456.SID and what needs to be allocated and in what manner. As a matter of f= act, "pyang sid" already does this!


Does that make sense? Can we simply have a per-SID-file &q= uot;draft" property?=C2=A0

Cheers,
= Alexander
=C2=A0

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

--000000000000b0d89805db4da655-- From nobody Mon Mar 28 14:20:22 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AE663A1973 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 14:20:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bX2GNipGOtP9 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 14:20:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [176.58.120.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A9FEA3A196E for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 14:20:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (ipv6.dooku.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:6::1]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 26D6E1F45E; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 21:20:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id C18AF1A0215; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 23:20:02 +0200 (CEST) From: Michael Richardson To: Alexander Pelov cc: "core\@ietf.org WG \(core\@ietf.org\)" In-reply-to: References: <32267.1648146701@dooku> Comments: In-reply-to Alexander Pelov message dated "Mon, 28 Mar 2022 15:22:33 +0200." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7.1; GNU Emacs 26.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 17:20:02 -0400 Message-ID: <107379.1648502402@dooku> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] SID file --- status entry for allocation X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 21:20:20 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alexander Pelov wrote: > I am not sure I understand the premise of your mail, and the discussi= on > that follows touches upon several possibilities. If you revise a > module, you provide a new YANG file (with a different name/revision), > and if you need to change the semantics of some item.. well, you need > a new SID. Yes. That's what it looks like from the outside. But, inside the sausage factory of the IETF, during the process we create i= nternet-drafts. When those internet drafts are revisions to published RFCs, they will conta= in a mix of SID allocations which are published (and thus immutable), and some which are new, and which are mutable during the WG deliberations. We need to keep track of which is which so that we can: 1) renumber/revise the mutable allocations 2) make sure never to change the immutable ones > Can you please provide an example that needs adding something new and > cannot be solved as currently it stands? It's all solvable as is, but people have to pay more attention than may be realistic outside of our design team. The changes we discussed would just make the tooling better able to help the user. We could add it later if we can't get consensus on this. =2D-=20 Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQGzBAEBCgAdFiEEow/1qDVgAbWL2zxYcAKuwszYgEMFAmJCJoIACgkQcAKuwszY gEPyIwv+MWF0RUM98kLsFFgZXC81Vxtd/n6ka4xRNNNSKGkFdvMiliKY6F8kGku2 gTnj/8ZE7ztmkxEe5hl818iSlsFXXBKvXhkLef3m7Z7qKfDki2UupQTkoynq4jIi ro29fK30nlOOBIq5OPUk+o03VZnZLShb9NxqGxOV3EaDTe5LFTs/j+4ZKmXsQVbX sg5hLsHNMqJB/isPVE1+KU7MkIfcI2nuIEslir6z04R785DCMe8Mv/TuSEXN12oH klHOlC+WYMHfYgxkKZl9cy6OV7C4OA7Xt4huFcWACcd/bqIKSFe2shOameh/VolF OWF1ybC7LXVnuZ8EwyC7HVkG7ggpaW7u3HMVMe6q9zban13lrOvAf0StN++9f4jR ZG9EgVqFG74uwYXs92A58O/1EYHeueOU+HvR/mzVq5A1NtjDE1l/8OsSpwKhf2gV +VM1yKnBBV75tDvnayd5RqqT5fSsCxtex2oAT3eJx4fPsoOKmlSyC+JJCG2wqSyw R4w90dnB =OENq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Mar 28 14:22:31 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9E3B3A1973 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 14:22:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fdgt4J-EYFkI for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 14:22:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [176.58.120.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2360B3A196E for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 14:22:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (ipv6.dooku.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:6::1]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C8F11F45E; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 21:22:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 849E71A0215; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 23:22:20 +0200 (CEST) From: Michael Richardson To: Carsten Bormann , Alexander Pelov , "core\@ietf.org WG \(core\@ietf.org\)" In-reply-to: <4E8666FA-6F9E-48BF-9BF4-05B8EEC177D7@tzi.org> References: <32267.1648146701@dooku> <4E8666FA-6F9E-48BF-9BF4-05B8EEC177D7@tzi.org> Comments: In-reply-to Carsten Bormann message dated "Mon, 28 Mar 2022 16:34:44 +0200." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7.1; GNU Emacs 26.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 17:22:20 -0400 Message-ID: <107474.1648502540@dooku> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] SID file --- status entry for allocation X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 21:22:29 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Carsten Bormann wrote: >> Is there something else we are trying to solve with the >> "stable/unstable" solution? > The main observation is that these SID files may get wings and may tu= rn > up in places where they were not meant to be. Being able to identify > that some of the SID allocations in a SID file are still unstable may > help in avoiding these SIDs turning up in production. That's something I hadn't thought about. It's entirely a good thing that in development SID files can be identified. So +10. =2D-=20 Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQGzBAEBCgAdFiEEow/1qDVgAbWL2zxYcAKuwszYgEMFAmJCJwwACgkQcAKuwszY gEM9Dwv/bmYKTZ+nPnaFTweK9rdACB3PSurDD8m7gJ3bh3aq3I8xyr7CEA3ld/ga 5YULQDR8dPU6wDEVEVtx0JANq6JN4J221/OjIKmAKgMzWDXhNqwDp7PkPDT+JfBE G1lU1OnJG0LEhYIZF4GQaYRhyfAXBnN6vmVRjJcgpNTewjgZ6gIYJhdx6p0rkZXK Eyejg+ns48gnkGaqyhzv/Gyy3mZObgyEgy0cTrWXOZ9GtSRRahH1HMDChxQG+WE/ LTSOCIpR4FIWYvd5Neb3c99vDOEVwQNGrhaQgKeq5Cvg4GgCgAlPP7QGN2TNC8B6 vx4//m/RmxV4fO0pM+ww9PawqtIuYxS5tge1KVca/PvoOAib/xq37PLkbSELClOS j48CtLttCOt5ueOaDmzBBbV0NL2XhNyVArTo3bINwmX61l/kGmbM1JxlQSEkmlmc 5Bs1PPEgWD4hfbS5zi8/ypCLff+LUHUHGL/SB807l0wKsfpYf6Ex41WDHLtKkx8J DO3+yAFC =72mV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Mar 28 14:54:52 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7336A3A1985 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 14:54:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MtN0lsNDgDkk for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 14:54:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-xb35.google.com (mail-yb1-xb35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47CD53A1597 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 14:54:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb35.google.com with SMTP id y38so25795409ybi.8 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 14:54:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Tf8zrQ7vL6fd/AwyqCI9WnPN4ii9vKWjGKE6TbIY0jo=; b=7Ft/PAimelVlescsRvWSec4xRC9ZlHJLjxwtZ3C/5ekuVfwrIkj9sm5kTrQUnYrTcp KHV2nDny6N0CastEIfeEHFgtmQyn71n7McFu5OnyyYKVM+bjI2jSiJkvntmhP83GNbOc EOdoZ17ahkU69hlmSepL1ChfepvxQe3QUo4Uln4mwa2/MmVlAzRCOkD8mFbNL3t3K5d2 ggcysvfmhLy/r892MEZjf5wlNCGgEPxL/msnYmICzWo7LyRe3IfY9NzsNjRB05w0LWA/ ZdgtRWsxwg0wFriNBRWD4ahxicbKKi1xx/QOJoXSVNaMCJV0INXGomzyQhVMT/jsR+XD H/wA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Tf8zrQ7vL6fd/AwyqCI9WnPN4ii9vKWjGKE6TbIY0jo=; b=o/A3BEJeCOpWADvaiiSNQsgpMqlZ12weU77+3M7rXHdYOH04CTn+KGONW4kx4IAfWw R2RLlEoqjGKqpixAzFCazXVg6JJbtbuituFc/IG02WM6WZlh8W+IS2S0Q03y5fGyawP+ eQ+Dko7jVH+8UlY6LwvkQ/9FORPZUvNW4+9ZBFbNByfnK2psbjq7pBUsKqiPAgdFCEJX t0yfCTNOq+xXzct57WJqNgvcW52TRQlMa1MoslsiWn4PKdxWbD2auvxUpLSdJEv8UGIh 0jygNQNsZa3P7jbAN5F+zjz8fzm1s/rZTidEejhw+Hi8ZEm3mM88ao3HO4qji3s5S09u rQpA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532gBJnDpQYB1ii60R5pRhDyj3g80sJNNZwP/Si2wYHHexQakJ24 kdxQO6sbOjcRuRghTQovpluCBxlsF/Ij1sVkWXnJC/dz5KcUZA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxvUJz3hWtKGnwiN/DDL2TXG5ojs0guqT3TLdP9jhBztcBgKVnJ6G3CSXgXJCPLxvGH+dZ/4wqHhlTYgXVIsyE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6902:20e:b0:627:f1cb:a9ee with SMTP id j14-20020a056902020e00b00627f1cba9eemr24175690ybs.129.1648504480057; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 14:54:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <32267.1648146701@dooku> <4E8666FA-6F9E-48BF-9BF4-05B8EEC177D7@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: From: Andy Bierman Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 14:54:27 -0700 Message-ID: To: Alexander Pelov Cc: Carsten Bormann , "core@ietf.org WG (core@ietf.org)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f1e2a705db4e5b8c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] SID file --- status entry for allocation X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 21:54:48 -0000 --000000000000f1e2a705db4e5b8c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 2:04 PM Alexander Pelov wrote: > Hi again, > > Thanks for the clarifications! > > On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 4:34 PM Carsten Bormann wrote: > >> On 2022-03-28, at 16:30, Alexander Pelov wrote: >> > >> > From what I understand, the problem we are trying to solve is (and I a= m >> paraphrasing to see if we are on the same page) to try to limit and have >> one SID per YANG name. Something like a 'canonical SID' (which would mak= e >> for a bijective correspondence "YANG name" <-> "canonical SID", for YANG >> modules that have SID allocations). >> >> Indeed. > > > It seems to me that the "canonical SID" property is nice to have (but not > a must have, because it cannot be really guaranteed). > > The SID files winding up somewhere are the real pain here -> which is > actually simpler to solve if you consider that the definitive allocation = is > an atomic operation. > > Say, you have RFC123456.yang, with allocation of SIDs described in > RFC123456.SID. > Now, you have draft-RFC123456bis.yang -> until this one becomes an RFC, > the corresponding SID file can be considered in its entirety as provision= al > allocation / temporary / draft / unstable. > > In that sense, the stable/unstable (or other term for the same meaning) > works on the file level and is in direct connection to the YANG file. > > > Agreed > > Is there something else we are trying to solve with the >> "stable/unstable" solution? > > >> The main observation is that these SID files may get wings and may turn >> up in places where they were not meant to be. Being able to identify th= at >> some of the SID allocations in a SID file are still unstable may help in >> avoiding these SIDs turning up in production. >> > > > During development, to know which SIDs you can regenerate freely and whic= h > you CANNOT because they have been allocated in a "parent" module, you onl= y > need the full history of the YANG / SID allocation. This you need in any > case to do the check, and the per-range stable/unstable option can be see= n > as a way to ease the life of a tool developer, but cannot be used to > actually be trusted. > > The example is the following: > The developers of draft-RFC123456bis.yang have access to both > RFC123456.yang and RFC123456.SID. When you allocate SIDs for > draft-RFC123456bis.yang, it is a very straightforward operation to make t= he > diff between what's already in RFC123456.SID and what needs to be allocat= ed > and in what manner. As a matter of fact, "pyang sid" already does this! > > > Does that make sense? Can we simply have a per-SID-file "draft" property? > Almost. It would be set if the SID file also records the "last-sid-file" revision somehow. The pyang tool requires this for the --sid-update-file parameter. A WG does not need to renumber RFC123456bis every time a new bis draft is released. The RFC123456 SIDs MUST be preserved in each bis release, but none of the new "draft" SIDs need to be preserved. If the SID file recorded the previous version somehow then ANY SID generation tool can create the correct file, but without it, not even pyang can do it. E.g. RFC123456 published 2021-01-01 draft=3Dfalse RFC123456bis published 2022-01-01 (-00) draft=3Dtrue RFC123456bis published 2022-02-01 (-01) draft=3Dtrue RFC123456bis published 2022-03-01 (-02) draft=3Dtrue The bis -00 MUST use RFC123456 as the --sid-update-file. But -01 and -02 bis releases can choose to be a delta from any previous I-D or start over with a delta from the RFC version. If a per-SID flag is used, the ability to go back to a previous SID file revision as the base is lost. Once the SID is marked stable in a new SID file, the tool does not know if it was marked stable in the RFC or later, so it can never change it back to unstable. The ability for any tool to verify that a proper delta was generated is needed and currently does not exist. The [last-sid-file, current-YANG-file] are needed for this purpose. > Cheers, > Alexander > Andy > > >> >> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >> >> _______________________________________________ > core mailing list > core@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core > --000000000000f1e2a705db4e5b8c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 2:04 PM Alexa= nder Pelov <a@ackl.io> wrote:
= Hi again,

Thanks for the clarifications!

On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 4:34 PM Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
On 2022-03-28, at 16:30, Alexander = Pelov <a@ackl.io> = wrote:
>
> From what I understand, the problem we are trying to solve is (and I a= m paraphrasing to see if we are on the same page) to try to limit and have = one SID per YANG name. Something like a 'canonical SID' (which woul= d make for a bijective correspondence "YANG name" <-> "= ;canonical SID", for YANG modules that have SID allocations).

Indeed.=C2=A0

It seems to me that the = "canonical SID" property is nice to have (but not a must have, be= cause it cannot be really guaranteed).

The SID fil= es winding up somewhere are the real pain here -> which is actually simp= ler to solve if you consider that the definitive allocation is an atomic op= eration.=C2=A0

Say, you have RFC123456.yang, with = allocation of SIDs described in RFC123456.SID.
Now, you have draf= t-RFC123456bis.yang=C2=A0-> until this one becomes an RFC, the correspon= ding SID file can be considered in its entirety as provisional allocation /= temporary / draft / unstable.=C2=A0

In that sense= , the stable/unstable (or other term for the same meaning) works on the fil= e level and is in direct connection to the YANG file.
=C2= =A0


Agreed=

=C2=A0
> Is there something else we are trying to solve with the "stable/u= nstable" solution?=C2=A0

The main observation is that these SID files may get wings and may turn up = in places where they were not meant to be.=C2=A0 Being able to identify tha= t some of the SID allocations in a SID file are still unstable may help in = avoiding these SIDs turning up in production.


During development, to know which SIDs you can r= egenerate freely and which you CANNOT because they have been allocated in a= "parent" module, you only need the full history of the YANG / SI= D allocation. This you need in any case to do the check, and the per-range = stable/unstable option can be seen as a way to ease the life of a tool deve= loper, but cannot be used to actually be trusted.

= The example is the following:
The developers of draft-RFC123456bi= s.yang have access to both RFC123456.yang=C2=A0and=C2=A0RFC123456.SID. When= you allocate SIDs for draft-RFC123456bis.yang, it is a very straightforwar= d=C2=A0operation=C2=A0to make the diff between what's already in RFC123= 456.SID and what needs to be allocated and in what manner. As a matter of f= act, "pyang sid" already does this!


Does that make sense? Can we simply have a per-SID-file &q= uot;draft" property?=C2=A0

Almost.

It would be set if the SID file als= o records the "last-sid-file" revision somehow.
The pya= ng tool requires this for the --sid-update-file parameter.

A WG does not need to renumber RFC123456bis every time a new bis d= raft is released.
The RFC123456 SIDs MUST be preserved in each bi= s release, but none of the new "draft" SIDs need to be preserved.=

If the SID file recorded the previous version som= ehow then ANY SID generation
tool can create the correct file, bu= t without it, not even pyang can do it.

E.g.
=

RFC123456 published=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A02021-01-01=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draf= t=3Dfalse
RFC123456bis published=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2022-= 01-01=C2=A0 (-00)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft=3Dtrue
RFC123456bis publishe= d=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2022-02-01=C2=A0 (-01)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft=3Dtr= ue
RFC123456bis published=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2022-03-= 01=C2=A0 (-02)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft=3Dtrue

The b= is -00 MUST use RFC123456 as the --sid-update-file.
But -01 and -= 02 bis releases can choose to be a delta from any previous I-D or=C2=A0
start over with a delta from the RFC version.

If a per-SID flag is used, the ability to go back to a previous SID file= revision as the base is lost.
Once the SID is marked stable in a= new SID file, the tool does not know if it was marked
stable in = the RFC or later, so it can never change it back to unstable.
The ability for any tool to verify that a proper delta was gene= rated is needed and currently
does not exist. The [last-sid-file,= current-YANG-file] are needed for this purpose.

<= br>

<= div dir=3D"ltr">

Cheers,
Alexander


Andy
=C2=A0
=C2=A0

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

_______________________________________________
core mailing list
core@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core
--000000000000f1e2a705db4e5b8c-- From nobody Tue Mar 29 06:25:02 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB7A03A18B6 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 06:24:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UTmtgYpXV-NN for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 06:24:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA3FE3A09A1 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 06:24:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089ad4f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.173.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4KSVfW5sNQzDCcc; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 15:24:51 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 15:24:51 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 670253091.401177-d283f1fe65ae4a68b936510dcb17a3bb Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2A7617A8-A8A5-4A0B-9131-129EFBD8A0ED@tzi.org> To: "core@ietf.org WG (core@ietf.org)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: [core] YANG-CBOR: documenting the SID management objectives X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 13:25:00 -0000 At IETF113, we had a side discussion about what would be needed to move = the reference from yang-cbor to core-sid to informative. We came up = with documenting the SID management objectives in yang-cbor, independent = of core-sid. Here is a pull request: https://github.com/core-wg/yang-cbor/pull/142 Comments welcome. As far as I can see, this is the last item still in the way of = publishing yang-cbor. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Tue Mar 29 13:20:44 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 012503A1BB3 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 13:20:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ackl-io.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IthMeRNQizY5 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 13:20:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd34.google.com (mail-io1-xd34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CCA083A1BC4 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 13:20:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd34.google.com with SMTP id x4so22403747iop.7 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 13:20:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ackl-io.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=fblh6N9rsmPDMkow2SgrSRUGKyIBLfSxB7Yy5b6vTDc=; b=zsWfqTtXKbYlxr+WcjMw50CQIBNGRoMWmSsGQRzRJzXwVc4wi5pSyPWfeQuuDXi7Ck QR3b9aPbA56W3ljrQGT1ABtr2vEvXld2GBoUHgUQ5qy+qiszu6JWuKdupqnnamZ/Zq3T HyLgyBm6E0u6P6ZjdQQ27diYyKDr9dGRBHzzpY+4VHQkUqL0zxT9YZYstUt/Nga2WUQn T9DdJNjOFHs7aVIGglYFtbZQoWtKnBh7/ilydPg3t420wS+yflT2bKONebVsmxkP+Oqk M9dJcSEgGTBoou8cJVgHS5u++qlALuHPjBlF8mNdTAlT5fbArdbUKm6u1rHVAQ9GF2kP 3naw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=fblh6N9rsmPDMkow2SgrSRUGKyIBLfSxB7Yy5b6vTDc=; b=k9hGk35pEHXVPxq35WVIqhkmlqhThgprrtglUNMJd2egXn2qtjCewMiklCVzkrKw+D hudpT0yApbuY8ohlm3NwgGKNepZAAGphDwHw3vl5UM1nMeGreBw16aww/BM9LX5jHhnN ZUkI/Jt1rCeKIa7zX0XAG3HCe1+k+MHzlYHe+mIYeFsWqJA3GZd/6mxtn9bTL4F3cLdW l6aprDE+pH3nxMm51cmgf+qyPhFQFqdCSNJXnRlfnxTMo46qKSt3dU2YBL0LyTlhyIYr 7ytvENr+NTpHe28oQxf5+QIm3DNg5VPUKC0S9wSTiKDjb8Jj4UEa3hAG7wAB+6iK/wT4 j7Iw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531Wl4E7NJ1+9NZwnrz478eOodzgQRqpxEwGLVqzY1RdZk2Te+1I /o70Yre2NdyANtr8VxNboTH+MliwnkeSMJIKNjCJ6Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwh11+JzG3kzlNnrOQkgnZj4PE16tj76+ElFylL9c+Oy/Dz3AUTPQnbvlqeZ8zeZGegauJNZ4zkfGePdZlvPp0= X-Received: by 2002:a02:cb98:0:b0:323:64bb:7c57 with SMTP id u24-20020a02cb98000000b0032364bb7c57mr7940349jap.126.1648585236505; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 13:20:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <32267.1648146701@dooku> <4E8666FA-6F9E-48BF-9BF4-05B8EEC177D7@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: From: Alexander Pelov Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 22:20:25 +0200 Message-ID: To: Andy Bierman Cc: Carsten Bormann , "core@ietf.org WG (core@ietf.org)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000677be805db612938" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] SID file --- status entry for allocation X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 20:20:43 -0000 --000000000000677be805db612938 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Andy, Michael, all, Thanks for the examples ! Once again, to see if we are on the same page, the problem seems to come from needing two SID files: RFC123456 and the last work version of RFC123456bis-02 (because of you have both you can infer the immutable from RFC123456 and the provisionnaly allocated for the RFC123456bis-01). If this is the case, isn't it simply solved by saving a RFC123456bis-01.sid and then using pyang --sid-update-file RFC123456bis-01.sid to generate the RFC123456bis-02.sid And if you want to have RFC123456bis-03.sid renumber from the 01 version you simply do it based on RFC123456bis-01.sid. It's just that I get the feeling we are trying to do version control here and if this is the case I would really prefer we stick to git and some best practices. Cheers, Alexander Le lun. 28 mars 2022, 23:54, Andy Bierman a =C3=A9crit= : > > > On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 2:04 PM Alexander Pelov wrote: > >> Hi again, >> >> Thanks for the clarifications! >> >> On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 4:34 PM Carsten Bormann wrote: >> >>> On 2022-03-28, at 16:30, Alexander Pelov wrote: >>> > >>> > From what I understand, the problem we are trying to solve is (and I >>> am paraphrasing to see if we are on the same page) to try to limit and = have >>> one SID per YANG name. Something like a 'canonical SID' (which would ma= ke >>> for a bijective correspondence "YANG name" <-> "canonical SID", for YAN= G >>> modules that have SID allocations). >>> >>> Indeed. >> >> >> It seems to me that the "canonical SID" property is nice to have (but no= t >> a must have, because it cannot be really guaranteed). >> >> The SID files winding up somewhere are the real pain here -> which is >> actually simpler to solve if you consider that the definitive allocation= is >> an atomic operation. >> >> Say, you have RFC123456.yang, with allocation of SIDs described in >> RFC123456.SID. >> Now, you have draft-RFC123456bis.yang -> until this one becomes an RFC, >> the corresponding SID file can be considered in its entirety as provisio= nal >> allocation / temporary / draft / unstable. >> >> In that sense, the stable/unstable (or other term for the same meaning) >> works on the file level and is in direct connection to the YANG file. >> >> >> > Agreed > > > >> > Is there something else we are trying to solve with the >>> "stable/unstable" solution? >> >> >>> The main observation is that these SID files may get wings and may turn >>> up in places where they were not meant to be. Being able to identify t= hat >>> some of the SID allocations in a SID file are still unstable may help i= n >>> avoiding these SIDs turning up in production. >>> >> >> >> During development, to know which SIDs you can regenerate freely and >> which you CANNOT because they have been allocated in a "parent" module, = you >> only need the full history of the YANG / SID allocation. This you need i= n >> any case to do the check, and the per-range stable/unstable option can b= e >> seen as a way to ease the life of a tool developer, but cannot be used t= o >> actually be trusted. >> >> The example is the following: >> The developers of draft-RFC123456bis.yang have access to both >> RFC123456.yang and RFC123456.SID. When you allocate SIDs for >> draft-RFC123456bis.yang, it is a very straightforward operation to make = the >> diff between what's already in RFC123456.SID and what needs to be alloca= ted >> and in what manner. As a matter of fact, "pyang sid" already does this! >> >> >> Does that make sense? Can we simply have a per-SID-file "draft" property= ? >> > > Almost. > > It would be set if the SID file also records the "last-sid-file" revision > somehow. > The pyang tool requires this for the --sid-update-file parameter. > > A WG does not need to renumber RFC123456bis every time a new bis draft is > released. > The RFC123456 SIDs MUST be preserved in each bis release, but none of the > new "draft" SIDs need to be preserved. > > If the SID file recorded the previous version somehow then ANY SID > generation > tool can create the correct file, but without it, not even pyang can do i= t. > > E.g. > > RFC123456 published 2021-01-01 draft=3Dfalse > RFC123456bis published 2022-01-01 (-00) draft=3Dtrue > RFC123456bis published 2022-02-01 (-01) draft=3Dtrue > RFC123456bis published 2022-03-01 (-02) draft=3Dtrue > > The bis -00 MUST use RFC123456 as the --sid-update-file. > But -01 and -02 bis releases can choose to be a delta from any previous > I-D or > start over with a delta from the RFC version. > > If a per-SID flag is used, the ability to go back to a previous SID file > revision as the base is lost. > Once the SID is marked stable in a new SID file, the tool does not know i= f > it was marked > stable in the RFC or later, so it can never change it back to unstable. > > The ability for any tool to verify that a proper delta was generated is > needed and currently > does not exist. The [last-sid-file, current-YANG-file] are needed for thi= s > purpose. > > > > >> Cheers, >> Alexander >> > > > Andy > > >> >> >>> >>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> core mailing list >> core@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core >> > --000000000000677be805db612938 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Andy, Michael, all,

Thanks for the examples !

Once again, to see if we are on the same page, the problem see= ms to come from needing two SID files:
RFC123456 and= the last work version of RFC123456bis-02 (because of you have both you can= infer the immutable from RFC123456 and the provisionnaly allocated for the= RFC123456bis-01).

If th= is is the case, isn't it simply solved by saving a RFC123456bis-01.sid = and then using pyang --sid-update-file RFC123456bis-01.sid to generate the = RFC123456bis-02.sid

And = if you want to have RFC123456bis-03.sid renumber from the 01 version you si= mply do it based on RFC123456bis-01.sid.

<= div dir=3D"auto">It's just that I get the feeling we are trying to do v= ersion control here and if this is the case I would really prefer we stick = to git and some best practices.

Cheers,=C2=A0
Alexander=C2=A0



Le lun. 28 mars 2022, 23:54, Andy Bierman &= lt;andy@yumaworks.com> a =C3= =A9crit=C2=A0:


On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 2:04 PM Alexander Pelov <a@ackl.io&= gt; wrote:
Hi again,

Thanks for the clarific= ations!

On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 4:34 PM Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.or= g> wrote:
On 2022-03-28, at 16:30, Alexander Pelov <a@ackl.io> wrote:
>
> From what I understand, the problem we are trying to solve is (and I a= m paraphrasing to see if we are on the same page) to try to limit and have = one SID per YANG name. Something like a 'canonical SID' (which woul= d make for a bijective correspondence "YANG name" <-> "= ;canonical SID", for YANG modules that have SID allocations).

Indeed.=C2=A0

It seems to me that the = "canonical SID" property is nice to have (but not a must have, be= cause it cannot be really guaranteed).

The SID fil= es winding up somewhere are the real pain here -> which is actually simp= ler to solve if you consider that the definitive allocation is an atomic op= eration.=C2=A0

Say, you have RFC123456.yang, with = allocation of SIDs described in RFC123456.SID.
Now, you have draf= t-RFC123456bis.yang=C2=A0-> until this one becomes an RFC, the correspon= ding SID file can be considered in its entirety as provisional allocation /= temporary / draft / unstable.=C2=A0

In that sense= , the stable/unstable (or other term for the same meaning) works on the fil= e level and is in direct connection to the YANG file.
=C2= =A0


Agreed=

=C2=A0
> Is there something else we are trying to solve with the "stable/u= nstable" solution?=C2=A0

The main observation is that these SID files may get wings and may turn up = in places where they were not meant to be.=C2=A0 Being able to identify tha= t some of the SID allocations in a SID file are still unstable may help in = avoiding these SIDs turning up in production.


During development, to know which SIDs you can r= egenerate freely and which you CANNOT because they have been allocated in a= "parent" module, you only need the full history of the YANG / SI= D allocation. This you need in any case to do the check, and the per-range = stable/unstable option can be seen as a way to ease the life of a tool deve= loper, but cannot be used to actually be trusted.

= The example is the following:
The developers of draft-RFC123456bi= s.yang have access to both RFC123456.yang=C2=A0and=C2=A0RFC123456.SID. When= you allocate SIDs for draft-RFC123456bis.yang, it is a very straightforwar= d=C2=A0operation=C2=A0to make the diff between what's already in RFC123= 456.SID and what needs to be allocated and in what manner. As a matter of f= act, "pyang sid" already does this!


Does that make sense? Can we simply have a per-SID-file &q= uot;draft" property?=C2=A0

Almost.

It would be set if the SID file als= o records the "last-sid-file" revision somehow.
The pya= ng tool requires this for the --sid-update-file parameter.

A WG does not need to renumber RFC123456bis every time a new bis d= raft is released.
The RFC123456 SIDs MUST be preserved in each bi= s release, but none of the new "draft" SIDs need to be preserved.=

If the SID file recorded the previous version som= ehow then ANY SID generation
tool can create the correct file, bu= t without it, not even pyang can do it.

E.g.
=

RFC123456 published=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A02021-01-01=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draf= t=3Dfalse
RFC123456bis published=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2022-= 01-01=C2=A0 (-00)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft=3Dtrue
RFC123456bis publishe= d=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2022-02-01=C2=A0 (-01)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft=3Dtr= ue
RFC123456bis published=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2022-03-= 01=C2=A0 (-02)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft=3Dtrue

The b= is -00 MUST use RFC123456 as the --sid-update-file.
But -01 and -= 02 bis releases can choose to be a delta from any previous I-D or=C2=A0
start over with a delta from the RFC version.

If a per-SID flag is used, the ability to go back to a previous SID file= revision as the base is lost.
Once the SID is marked stable in a= new SID file, the tool does not know if it was marked
stable in = the RFC or later, so it can never change it back to unstable.
The ability for any tool to verify that a proper delta was gene= rated is needed and currently
does not exist. The [last-sid-file,= current-YANG-file] are needed for this purpose.

<= br>

<= div dir=3D"ltr">

Cheers,
Alexander


Andy
=C2=A0
=C2=A0

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

_______________________________________________
core mailing list
core@= ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core<= br>
--000000000000677be805db612938-- From nobody Tue Mar 29 13:43:35 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C0F63A14EC for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 13:43:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id egS1SiAQQHqY for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 13:43:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1074E3A1CA8 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 13:43:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089ad4f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.173.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4KShNX4fS1zDCbq; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 22:43:24 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 22:43:24 +0200 Cc: Andy Bierman , "core@ietf.org WG (core@ietf.org)" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 670279404.228931-54991a7061cbd126cc0f1ca8a7510fd6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4CC34621-BCFF-4C44-9737-81B0496DBCE3@tzi.org> References: <32267.1648146701@dooku> <4E8666FA-6F9E-48BF-9BF4-05B8EEC177D7@tzi.org> To: Alexander Pelov X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] SID file --- status entry for allocation X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 20:43:33 -0000 On 2022-03-29, at 22:20, Alexander Pelov wrote: >=20 > If this is the case, isn't it simply solved by saving a = RFC123456bis-01.sid and then using pyang --sid-update-file = RFC123456bis-01.sid to generate the RFC123456bis-02.sid Yes, and that needs the stable/unstable information per SID. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Tue Mar 29 14:03:18 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A24C3A0B5E for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 14:03:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qjY1VGRjpH_S for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 14:03:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw1-x1136.google.com (mail-yw1-x1136.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C70EB3A0ADC for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 14:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw1-x1136.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-2e64a6b20eeso197493587b3.3 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 14:03:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Z/1J1OqSB4ni8zOh3rcR5V8XKrFwqc0F+QaR9VTj3Xc=; b=beV1vGJzeTyFolIsawDiwCMyu1v5eGdFZQ0c+gFiHabl2PX7pQksUrKmZ+6GAtfeVM aID7lZ4VUa8qa9Mp/QqfAYJMzM5kKPv+Hy6YYNvxM2WJQXftlfQfMocftDDndJbroGo6 cyNf6ksVLiGKfgkdkb8HIBPLG6iihlH7re/MMsvkNqrMambqa1TdTnC8Lk9y7oTmwRKL s/+BGDgfzqrvWzidmLFb736Fn9s3BVIXZawDdFioWgZX0tj+C5lNsHhh5/0stf6lhz1f b58hW5ETOQYeQE4c0HH8g7Feo8owvcLLg+zTRQ6PT6QFkOEfhJ6ifB4vKTnCSz6elMdG gSEg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Z/1J1OqSB4ni8zOh3rcR5V8XKrFwqc0F+QaR9VTj3Xc=; b=kuQgDC30KnB2s7WjReZI2i0gLyUUboZgy4SFNGOVulUwIvigdKXwvoITKBur4ebZ07 jZ4IUU6vY8ibc+ABWKlF/6dz23vNymyVE8taz6fx+X3Uyizbm27nlG5SPHKJTcy/gVkT tVMvVqiaZGwSibhGxoUKrSe0dntlyUiJSVP4dFSlBmzLGcffjQx3pU/8NzlH3uSNWDax eKNotll9M8iBviJC0f+1aAkmZh2iJ00EaQ8ySop0RW3yS2Ronpf9JHRN6O/20ybcNaQL kNGKjNZlvHDLaO/OzHg2o3FUSn4FDGbgSFh2gsfyOgMF1hSNMY9tYx28r3iuzBoOT/02 W3jQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530yB5YzSfujCnr/A5nJmBS9u3s7zBHO7WCp73DbVXYUlvaiT55W EzWVENiOO/x/6KEeAbfq+6z4Fe84ssZoTZ+ws8YuNf+pm0I= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwVMTX21RfOi7VSLu81PvGp7QKZtYtr/Ia00qdu3ZL6OcHCWrZCXSGdiPM4dhyr5Y3EtcPHCw4HbfZaIhe/t0w= X-Received: by 2002:a81:5845:0:b0:2e5:a75d:ed20 with SMTP id m66-20020a815845000000b002e5a75ded20mr33051978ywb.110.1648587787535; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 14:03:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <32267.1648146701@dooku> <4E8666FA-6F9E-48BF-9BF4-05B8EEC177D7@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: From: Andy Bierman Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 14:02:56 -0700 Message-ID: To: Alexander Pelov Cc: Carsten Bormann , "core@ietf.org WG (core@ietf.org)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007518e405db61c1f4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] SID file --- status entry for allocation X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 21:03:15 -0000 --0000000000007518e405db61c1f4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 1:20 PM Alexander Pelov wrote: > Hi Andy, Michael, all, > > Thanks for the examples ! > > Once again, to see if we are on the same page, the problem seems to come > from needing two SID files: > RFC123456 and the last work version of RFC123456bis-02 (because of you > have both you can infer the immutable from RFC123456 and the provisionnal= y > allocated for the RFC123456bis-01). > > If this is the case, isn't it simply solved by saving a > RFC123456bis-01.sid and then using pyang --sid-update-file > RFC123456bis-01.sid to generate the RFC123456bis-02.sid > > And if you want to have RFC123456bis-03.sid renumber from the 01 version > you simply do it based on RFC123456bis-01.sid. > Yes. I want some operational verification of the SID file to be possible A more robust solution can be achieved if the SID file stored the following information: - parent-stable: the revision-date of the stable ancestor for this SID file. (present only if there is a stable ancestor e.g. RFC123456.sid) - parent-unstable: the revision-date for the parent of this SID file. (present only if this is draft and the parent is not the same as parent-stable) - draft: TRUE if this is a work-in-progress; FALSE if this is a published and stable SID file It should be possible for one SID tool to check the correctness of a SID file. Currently there is not even a datestamp or a checksum or any of the metadat= a (passed to pyang as parameters) saved in the SID file. It's just that I get the feeling we are trying to do version control here > and if this is the case I would really prefer we stick to git and some be= st > practices. > There is an assumption that SID files are like YANG modules, but they are not. A SID file expands the YANG module and therefore relies on all the imports. If a YANG module uses groupings (about 90% of them?) then it is quite possible for the SID file to change even if the YANG module it is for did not change= . I am much more concerned about operational robustness than the ability for a WG writing a bis-draft to save a few extra bytes in the CBOR encoding= . > Cheers, > Alexander > > > Andy > > Le lun. 28 mars 2022, 23:54, Andy Bierman a =C3=A9cr= it : > >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 2:04 PM Alexander Pelov wrote: >> >>> Hi again, >>> >>> Thanks for the clarifications! >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 4:34 PM Carsten Bormann wrote: >>> >>>> On 2022-03-28, at 16:30, Alexander Pelov wrote: >>>> > >>>> > From what I understand, the problem we are trying to solve is (and I >>>> am paraphrasing to see if we are on the same page) to try to limit and= have >>>> one SID per YANG name. Something like a 'canonical SID' (which would m= ake >>>> for a bijective correspondence "YANG name" <-> "canonical SID", for YA= NG >>>> modules that have SID allocations). >>>> >>>> Indeed. >>> >>> >>> It seems to me that the "canonical SID" property is nice to have (but >>> not a must have, because it cannot be really guaranteed). >>> >>> The SID files winding up somewhere are the real pain here -> which is >>> actually simpler to solve if you consider that the definitive allocatio= n is >>> an atomic operation. >>> >>> Say, you have RFC123456.yang, with allocation of SIDs described in >>> RFC123456.SID. >>> Now, you have draft-RFC123456bis.yang -> until this one becomes an RFC, >>> the corresponding SID file can be considered in its entirety as provisi= onal >>> allocation / temporary / draft / unstable. >>> >>> In that sense, the stable/unstable (or other term for the same meaning) >>> works on the file level and is in direct connection to the YANG file. >>> >>> >>> >> Agreed >> >> >> >>> > Is there something else we are trying to solve with the >>>> "stable/unstable" solution? >>> >>> >>>> The main observation is that these SID files may get wings and may tur= n >>>> up in places where they were not meant to be. Being able to identify = that >>>> some of the SID allocations in a SID file are still unstable may help = in >>>> avoiding these SIDs turning up in production. >>>> >>> >>> >>> During development, to know which SIDs you can regenerate freely and >>> which you CANNOT because they have been allocated in a "parent" module,= you >>> only need the full history of the YANG / SID allocation. This you need = in >>> any case to do the check, and the per-range stable/unstable option can = be >>> seen as a way to ease the life of a tool developer, but cannot be used = to >>> actually be trusted. >>> >>> The example is the following: >>> The developers of draft-RFC123456bis.yang have access to both >>> RFC123456.yang and RFC123456.SID. When you allocate SIDs for >>> draft-RFC123456bis.yang, it is a very straightforward operation to make= the >>> diff between what's already in RFC123456.SID and what needs to be alloc= ated >>> and in what manner. As a matter of fact, "pyang sid" already does this! >>> >>> >>> Does that make sense? Can we simply have a per-SID-file "draft" >>> property? >>> >> >> Almost. >> >> It would be set if the SID file also records the "last-sid-file" revisio= n >> somehow. >> The pyang tool requires this for the --sid-update-file parameter. >> >> A WG does not need to renumber RFC123456bis every time a new bis draft i= s >> released. >> The RFC123456 SIDs MUST be preserved in each bis release, but none of th= e >> new "draft" SIDs need to be preserved. >> >> If the SID file recorded the previous version somehow then ANY SID >> generation >> tool can create the correct file, but without it, not even pyang can do >> it. >> >> E.g. >> >> RFC123456 published 2021-01-01 draft=3Dfalse >> RFC123456bis published 2022-01-01 (-00) draft=3Dtrue >> RFC123456bis published 2022-02-01 (-01) draft=3Dtrue >> RFC123456bis published 2022-03-01 (-02) draft=3Dtrue >> >> The bis -00 MUST use RFC123456 as the --sid-update-file. >> But -01 and -02 bis releases can choose to be a delta from any previous >> I-D or >> start over with a delta from the RFC version. >> >> If a per-SID flag is used, the ability to go back to a previous SID file >> revision as the base is lost. >> Once the SID is marked stable in a new SID file, the tool does not know >> if it was marked >> stable in the RFC or later, so it can never change it back to unstable. >> >> The ability for any tool to verify that a proper delta was generated is >> needed and currently >> does not exist. The [last-sid-file, current-YANG-file] are needed for >> this purpose. >> >> >> >> >>> Cheers, >>> Alexander >>> >> >> >> Andy >> >> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> core mailing list >>> core@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core >>> >> --0000000000007518e405db61c1f4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 1:20 PM Alexa= nder Pelov <a@ackl.io> wrote:
Hi A= ndy, Michael, all,

Thanks for = the examples !

Once agai= n, to see if we are on the same page, the problem seems to come from needin= g two SID files:
RFC123456 and the last work version= of RFC123456bis-02 (because of you have both you can infer the immutable f= rom RFC123456 and the provisionnaly allocated for the RFC123456bis-01).

If this is the case, isn= 9;t it simply solved by saving a RFC123456bis-01.sid and then using pyang -= -sid-update-file RFC123456bis-01.sid to generate the RFC123456bis-02.sid

And if you want to have RF= C123456bis-03.sid renumber from the 01 version you simply do it based on RF= C123456bis-01.sid.


Yes.

I want some operational verification of th= e SID file to be possible
A more robust solution can be achieved = if the SID file stored the following information:=C2=A0

=C2=A0 - parent-stable:=C2=A0 the revision-date of the stable ancesto= r for this SID file.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(present only if there i= s a stable ancestor e.g. RFC123456.sid)

=C2=A0 - p= arent-unstable: the revision-date for the parent of this SID file.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(present only if this is draft and the parent is not = the same as parent-stable)

=C2=A0 - draft: TRUE if= this is a work-in-progress; FALSE if this is a published and stable SID fi= le

It should be possible for one SID tool to check= the correctness of a SID file.
Currently there is not even a dat= estamp=C2=A0or a checksum or any of the metadata
(passed to pyang= as parameters) saved in the SID file.

It= 9;s just that I get the feeling we are trying to do version control here an= d if this is the case I would really prefer we stick to git and some best p= ractices.


There = is an assumption that SID files are like YANG modules, but they are not.
A SID file expands the YANG module and therefore relies on all the = imports.
If a YANG module uses groupings (about 90% of them?) the= n it is quite possible
for the SID file to change even if the YAN= G module it is for did not change.

I am much more = concerned about operational robustness than the ability
for a WG = writing a bis-draft to save a few extra bytes in the CBOR encoding.





Cheers,=C2=A0
Alexander=C2=A0<= /div>



Andy
=C2=A0

Le lun. 28 mars 2022, 23:54, Andy Bierman <= ;andy@yumaworks.com= > a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:


On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at = 2:04 PM Alexander Pelov <a@ackl.io> wrote:
Hi again,

<= /div>
Thanks for the clarifications!

On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at = 4:34 PM Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
On 2022-03-28, at 16:30, Alexander Pelov = <a@ack= l.io> wrote:
>
> From what I understand, the problem we are trying to solve is (and I a= m paraphrasing to see if we are on the same page) to try to limit and have = one SID per YANG name. Something like a 'canonical SID' (which woul= d make for a bijective correspondence "YANG name" <-> "= ;canonical SID", for YANG modules that have SID allocations).

Indeed.=C2=A0

It seems to me that the = "canonical SID" property is nice to have (but not a must have, be= cause it cannot be really guaranteed).

The SID fil= es winding up somewhere are the real pain here -> which is actually simp= ler to solve if you consider that the definitive allocation is an atomic op= eration.=C2=A0

Say, you have RFC123456.yang, with = allocation of SIDs described in RFC123456.SID.
Now, you have draf= t-RFC123456bis.yang=C2=A0-> until this one becomes an RFC, the correspon= ding SID file can be considered in its entirety as provisional allocation /= temporary / draft / unstable.=C2=A0

In that sense= , the stable/unstable (or other term for the same meaning) works on the fil= e level and is in direct connection to the YANG file.
=C2= =A0


Agreed=

=C2=A0
> Is there something else we are trying to solve with the "stable/u= nstable" solution?=C2=A0

The main observation is that these SID files may get wings and may turn up = in places where they were not meant to be.=C2=A0 Being able to identify tha= t some of the SID allocations in a SID file are still unstable may help in = avoiding these SIDs turning up in production.


During development, to know which SIDs you can r= egenerate freely and which you CANNOT because they have been allocated in a= "parent" module, you only need the full history of the YANG / SI= D allocation. This you need in any case to do the check, and the per-range = stable/unstable option can be seen as a way to ease the life of a tool deve= loper, but cannot be used to actually be trusted.

= The example is the following:
The developers of draft-RFC123456bi= s.yang have access to both RFC123456.yang=C2=A0and=C2=A0RFC123456.SID. When= you allocate SIDs for draft-RFC123456bis.yang, it is a very straightforwar= d=C2=A0operation=C2=A0to make the diff between what's already in RFC123= 456.SID and what needs to be allocated and in what manner. As a matter of f= act, "pyang sid" already does this!


Does that make sense? Can we simply have a per-SID-file &q= uot;draft" property?=C2=A0

Almost.

It would be set if the SID file als= o records the "last-sid-file" revision somehow.
The pya= ng tool requires this for the --sid-update-file parameter.

A WG does not need to renumber RFC123456bis every time a new bis d= raft is released.
The RFC123456 SIDs MUST be preserved in each bi= s release, but none of the new "draft" SIDs need to be preserved.=

If the SID file recorded the previous version som= ehow then ANY SID generation
tool can create the correct file, bu= t without it, not even pyang can do it.

E.g.
=

RFC123456 published=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A02021-01-01=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draf= t=3Dfalse
RFC123456bis published=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2022-= 01-01=C2=A0 (-00)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft=3Dtrue
RFC123456bis publishe= d=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2022-02-01=C2=A0 (-01)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft=3Dtr= ue
RFC123456bis published=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2022-03-= 01=C2=A0 (-02)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft=3Dtrue

The b= is -00 MUST use RFC123456 as the --sid-update-file.
But -01 and -= 02 bis releases can choose to be a delta from any previous I-D or=C2=A0
start over with a delta from the RFC version.

If a per-SID flag is used, the ability to go back to a previous SID file= revision as the base is lost.
Once the SID is marked stable in a= new SID file, the tool does not know if it was marked
stable in = the RFC or later, so it can never change it back to unstable.
The ability for any tool to verify that a proper delta was gene= rated is needed and currently
does not exist. The [last-sid-file,= current-YANG-file] are needed for this purpose.

<= br>

<= div dir=3D"ltr">

Cheers,
Alexander


Andy
=C2=A0
=C2=A0

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

_______________________________________________
core mailing list
core@= ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core<= br>
--0000000000007518e405db61c1f4-- From nobody Tue Mar 29 14:35:48 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E95493A10C7 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 14:35:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ackl-io.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KGhVBL2shA0N for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 14:35:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2b.google.com (mail-io1-xd2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F32733A10B4 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 14:35:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2b.google.com with SMTP id q11so22615327iod.6 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 14:35:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ackl-io.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=GFfo5PG588u5Qv+VuGmCSZUzcV2gGCFJe1IUOC8RsI0=; b=rK3pYZkrlZomlcK1zyUzfTfx8FfVwwpdk0srzyw3ZN9Yig2m172YEtpbLID8ivTf8Q 7kSH72O3Q4k5NeMkNd3W35uV6++JvC3Wd5bz7w3p9dXdpTENggCJZOFap09reFkFicpD aTZAoNLDYLeMBF/0vbs2mjO+lhIHOuTE3xtxMpzBmkYqYjDaYLVlSHUTqIDHqe715mmg tmUq0L7BlUZYEyaYnkNMtNyP8IKv0AKUmO/X2w6zp1Xj8TPC3iHhNvJ2dobxf0sH3SEu 6nDZABD9+yTiqQR67pZV4hj7LLfj/3lDSRNocDhlJ+bbttjfFkPFnroawkZUXlntQQaS ZRJA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=GFfo5PG588u5Qv+VuGmCSZUzcV2gGCFJe1IUOC8RsI0=; b=ilfMFL5BmxTSsNoZlscxnwR2/0cQYTGUu1GIgu/70/saJGTRRjf3/N5RMO0LqDP35E T6XVgoaVNTgrG1ZjtxepWl3BZaG1Ws9CpfBJMdpsO4s+Z4kNORFeBlZS+wIor5PM2J+x iDtIQWpoXN6o4m2Ghqt/xz5qeWP2ZXtOm8gNeNtvPKcz0t4EO9ouOFyym3SBDeuN/ddl k4q9OFWYY14VRu3GEsvly5NkNCXLT6sAatK/FMDRGXEB0lYfrcJ/Vcvc9zpGYarm4UAn MLHdTx/bPOTqKxdAAF2LSzrOJscIqXodb2zQwInSwZhQ4jrFWr3rj44FQbUsd6FdV9Je o2FQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5333WeGcQIRLSNnlBogOV/L5jYhxEbJMusJZpGEnM0KNrlyaxtTT jSesMes3VBILkh/skgb1H2LmCZ8eOEY8LqiFWCFPRQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJznCXyll/vVXgP7Q7VSfHvB+ekQ05bterXx/w+6xnLR7wSGlIkCZ1bCrzlyhu55TwQ32YxRpymvNxyS3bQmbdk= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:45b:b0:645:bdc2:fe13 with SMTP id e27-20020a056602045b00b00645bdc2fe13mr10038658iov.114.1648589738507; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 14:35:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <32267.1648146701@dooku> <4E8666FA-6F9E-48BF-9BF4-05B8EEC177D7@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: From: Alexander Pelov Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 23:35:27 +0200 Message-ID: To: Andy Bierman Cc: Carsten Bormann , "core@ietf.org WG (core@ietf.org)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000be96f705db62358c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] SID file --- status entry for allocation X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 21:35:45 -0000 --000000000000be96f705db62358c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Andy, >From what I understood until now, the stable/unstable tag is helpful only to the authors that work on draft-123456bis-02 so that they can generate new SIDs keeping the previously temporary allocated for draft-123456bis-01. Once the document becomes and RFC the whole stable/unstable difference becomes useless. Also, it is meaningless to anyone other than the authors of the YANG file, between versions. Do you expect these to be used at any other moment? (I do agree adding metadata such as dare created, "draft", or other file level may be useful) Cheers, Alexander Le mar. 29 mars 2022, 23:03, Andy Bierman a =C3=A9crit= : > > > On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 1:20 PM Alexander Pelov wrote: > >> Hi Andy, Michael, all, >> >> Thanks for the examples ! >> >> Once again, to see if we are on the same page, the problem seems to come >> from needing two SID files: >> RFC123456 and the last work version of RFC123456bis-02 (because of you >> have both you can infer the immutable from RFC123456 and the provisionna= ly >> allocated for the RFC123456bis-01). >> >> If this is the case, isn't it simply solved by saving a >> RFC123456bis-01.sid and then using pyang --sid-update-file >> RFC123456bis-01.sid to generate the RFC123456bis-02.sid >> >> And if you want to have RFC123456bis-03.sid renumber from the 01 version >> you simply do it based on RFC123456bis-01.sid. >> > > > Yes. > > I want some operational verification of the SID file to be possible > A more robust solution can be achieved if the SID file stored the > following information: > > - parent-stable: the revision-date of the stable ancestor for this SID > file. > (present only if there is a stable ancestor e.g. RFC123456.sid) > > - parent-unstable: the revision-date for the parent of this SID file. > (present only if this is draft and the parent is not the same as > parent-stable) > > - draft: TRUE if this is a work-in-progress; FALSE if this is a > published and stable SID file > > It should be possible for one SID tool to check the correctness of a SID > file. > Currently there is not even a datestamp or a checksum or any of the > metadata > (passed to pyang as parameters) saved in the SID file. > > It's just that I get the feeling we are trying to do version control here >> and if this is the case I would really prefer we stick to git and some b= est >> practices. >> > > > There is an assumption that SID files are like YANG modules, but they are > not. > A SID file expands the YANG module and therefore relies on all the import= s. > If a YANG module uses groupings (about 90% of them?) then it is quite > possible > for the SID file to change even if the YANG module it is for did not > change. > > I am much more concerned about operational robustness than the ability > for a WG writing a bis-draft to save a few extra bytes in the CBOR > encoding. > > > > > >> Cheers, >> Alexander >> >> >> > Andy > > >> >> Le lun. 28 mars 2022, 23:54, Andy Bierman a =C3=A9c= rit : >> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 2:04 PM Alexander Pelov wrote: >>> >>>> Hi again, >>>> >>>> Thanks for the clarifications! >>>> >>>> On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 4:34 PM Carsten Bormann wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 2022-03-28, at 16:30, Alexander Pelov wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > From what I understand, the problem we are trying to solve is (and = I >>>>> am paraphrasing to see if we are on the same page) to try to limit an= d have >>>>> one SID per YANG name. Something like a 'canonical SID' (which would = make >>>>> for a bijective correspondence "YANG name" <-> "canonical SID", for Y= ANG >>>>> modules that have SID allocations). >>>>> >>>>> Indeed. >>>> >>>> >>>> It seems to me that the "canonical SID" property is nice to have (but >>>> not a must have, because it cannot be really guaranteed). >>>> >>>> The SID files winding up somewhere are the real pain here -> which is >>>> actually simpler to solve if you consider that the definitive allocati= on is >>>> an atomic operation. >>>> >>>> Say, you have RFC123456.yang, with allocation of SIDs described in >>>> RFC123456.SID. >>>> Now, you have draft-RFC123456bis.yang -> until this one becomes an RFC= , >>>> the corresponding SID file can be considered in its entirety as provis= ional >>>> allocation / temporary / draft / unstable. >>>> >>>> In that sense, the stable/unstable (or other term for the same meaning= ) >>>> works on the file level and is in direct connection to the YANG file. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Agreed >>> >>> >>> >>>> > Is there something else we are trying to solve with the >>>>> "stable/unstable" solution? >>>> >>>> >>>>> The main observation is that these SID files may get wings and may >>>>> turn up in places where they were not meant to be. Being able to ide= ntify >>>>> that some of the SID allocations in a SID file are still unstable may= help >>>>> in avoiding these SIDs turning up in production. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> During development, to know which SIDs you can regenerate freely and >>>> which you CANNOT because they have been allocated in a "parent" module= , you >>>> only need the full history of the YANG / SID allocation. This you need= in >>>> any case to do the check, and the per-range stable/unstable option can= be >>>> seen as a way to ease the life of a tool developer, but cannot be used= to >>>> actually be trusted. >>>> >>>> The example is the following: >>>> The developers of draft-RFC123456bis.yang have access to both >>>> RFC123456.yang and RFC123456.SID. When you allocate SIDs for >>>> draft-RFC123456bis.yang, it is a very straightforward operation to mak= e the >>>> diff between what's already in RFC123456.SID and what needs to be allo= cated >>>> and in what manner. As a matter of fact, "pyang sid" already does this= ! >>>> >>>> >>>> Does that make sense? Can we simply have a per-SID-file "draft" >>>> property? >>>> >>> >>> Almost. >>> >>> It would be set if the SID file also records the "last-sid-file" >>> revision somehow. >>> The pyang tool requires this for the --sid-update-file parameter. >>> >>> A WG does not need to renumber RFC123456bis every time a new bis draft >>> is released. >>> The RFC123456 SIDs MUST be preserved in each bis release, but none of >>> the new "draft" SIDs need to be preserved. >>> >>> If the SID file recorded the previous version somehow then ANY SID >>> generation >>> tool can create the correct file, but without it, not even pyang can do >>> it. >>> >>> E.g. >>> >>> RFC123456 published 2021-01-01 draft=3Dfalse >>> RFC123456bis published 2022-01-01 (-00) draft=3Dtrue >>> RFC123456bis published 2022-02-01 (-01) draft=3Dtrue >>> RFC123456bis published 2022-03-01 (-02) draft=3Dtrue >>> >>> The bis -00 MUST use RFC123456 as the --sid-update-file. >>> But -01 and -02 bis releases can choose to be a delta from any previous >>> I-D or >>> start over with a delta from the RFC version. >>> >>> If a per-SID flag is used, the ability to go back to a previous SID fil= e >>> revision as the base is lost. >>> Once the SID is marked stable in a new SID file, the tool does not know >>> if it was marked >>> stable in the RFC or later, so it can never change it back to unstable. >>> >>> The ability for any tool to verify that a proper delta was generated is >>> needed and currently >>> does not exist. The [last-sid-file, current-YANG-file] are needed for >>> this purpose. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Alexander >>>> >>> >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> core mailing list >>>> core@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core >>>> >>> --000000000000be96f705db62358c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Andy,=C2=A0

From what = I understood until now, the stable/unstable tag is helpful only to the auth= ors that work on draft-123456bis-02 so that they can generate new SIDs keep= ing the previously temporary allocated for draft-123456bis-01.=C2=A0
<= div dir=3D"auto">
Once the document becomes and = RFC the whole stable/unstable difference becomes useless. Also, it is meani= ngless to anyone other than the authors of the YANG file, between versions.=

Do you expect these to = be used at any other moment?

(I do agree adding metadata such as dare created, "draft", o= r other file level may be useful)

Cheers,
Alexander=C2=A0






Le mar. 29 mars 2022, = 23:03, Andy Bierman <andy@yumawork= s.com> a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
<= div dir=3D"ltr">


<= div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 1:20 PM Alexan= der Pelov <a@ackl.io> wrote:
Hi Andy, Michael, all,
Thanks for the examples !
<= br>
Once again, to see if we are on the same page, t= he problem seems to come from needing two SID files:
RFC123456 and the last work version of RFC123456bis-02 (because of you hav= e both you can infer the immutable from RFC123456 and the provisionnaly all= ocated for the RFC123456bis-01).

If this is the case, isn't it simply solved by saving a RFC12= 3456bis-01.sid and then using pyang --sid-update-file RFC123456bis-01.sid t= o generate the RFC123456bis-02.sid

And if you want to have RFC123456bis-03.sid renumber from the 01= version you simply do it based on RFC123456bis-01.sid.


Yes.

I wan= t some operational verification of the SID file to be possible
A = more robust solution can be achieved if the SID file stored the following i= nformation:=C2=A0

=C2=A0 - parent-stable:=C2=A0 th= e revision-date of the stable ancestor for this SID file.
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0(present only if there is a stable ancestor e.g. RFC123456.sid= )

=C2=A0 - parent-unstable: the revision-date for = the parent of this SID file.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(present only if= this is draft and the parent is not the same as parent-stable)
<= br>
=C2=A0 - draft: TRUE if this is a work-in-progress; FALSE if = this is a published and stable SID file

It should = be possible for one SID tool to check the correctness of a SID file.
<= div>Currently there is not even a datestamp=C2=A0or a checksum or any of th= e metadata
(passed to pyang as parameters) saved in the SID file.=

It's just that I get the feeling we are= trying to do version control here and if this is the case I would really p= refer we stick to git and some best practices.


There is an assumption that SID files are li= ke YANG modules, but they are not.
A SID file expands the YANG mo= dule and therefore relies on all the imports.
If a YANG module us= es groupings (about 90% of them?) then it is quite possible
for t= he SID file to change even if the YANG module it is for did not change.

I am much more concerned about operational robustness= than the ability
for a WG writing a bis-draft to save a few extr= a bytes in the CBOR encoding.



<= /div>


Cheers,=C2=A0
Alexander=C2=A0


<= /div>

Andy
=C2=A0

Le lun. 28= mars 2022, 23:54, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> a =C3=A9crit= =C2=A0:


On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 2:04 PM Alexander Pel= ov <a@ackl.io> wrote:
Hi again,

= Thanks for the clarifications!

On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 4:34 PM Ca= rsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
On 2022-03-28, at 16:30, Alexander Pelov= <a@ackl.io> wrote:
>
> From what I understand, the problem we are trying to solve is (and I a= m paraphrasing to see if we are on the same page) to try to limit and have = one SID per YANG name. Something like a 'canonical SID' (which woul= d make for a bijective correspondence "YANG name" <-> "= ;canonical SID", for YANG modules that have SID allocations).

Indeed.=C2=A0

It seems to me that the = "canonical SID" property is nice to have (but not a must have, be= cause it cannot be really guaranteed).

The SID fil= es winding up somewhere are the real pain here -> which is actually simp= ler to solve if you consider that the definitive allocation is an atomic op= eration.=C2=A0

Say, you have RFC123456.yang, with = allocation of SIDs described in RFC123456.SID.
Now, you have draf= t-RFC123456bis.yang=C2=A0-> until this one becomes an RFC, the correspon= ding SID file can be considered in its entirety as provisional allocation /= temporary / draft / unstable.=C2=A0

In that sense= , the stable/unstable (or other term for the same meaning) works on the fil= e level and is in direct connection to the YANG file.
=C2= =A0


Agreed=

=C2=A0
> Is there something else we are trying to solve with the "stable/u= nstable" solution?=C2=A0

The main observation is that these SID files may get wings and may turn up = in places where they were not meant to be.=C2=A0 Being able to identify tha= t some of the SID allocations in a SID file are still unstable may help in = avoiding these SIDs turning up in production.


During development, to know which SIDs you can r= egenerate freely and which you CANNOT because they have been allocated in a= "parent" module, you only need the full history of the YANG / SI= D allocation. This you need in any case to do the check, and the per-range = stable/unstable option can be seen as a way to ease the life of a tool deve= loper, but cannot be used to actually be trusted.

= The example is the following:
The developers of draft-RFC123456bi= s.yang have access to both RFC123456.yang=C2=A0and=C2=A0RFC123456.SID. When= you allocate SIDs for draft-RFC123456bis.yang, it is a very straightforwar= d=C2=A0operation=C2=A0to make the diff between what's already in RFC123= 456.SID and what needs to be allocated and in what manner. As a matter of f= act, "pyang sid" already does this!


Does that make sense? Can we simply have a per-SID-file &q= uot;draft" property?=C2=A0

Almost.

It would be set if the SID file als= o records the "last-sid-file" revision somehow.
The pya= ng tool requires this for the --sid-update-file parameter.

A WG does not need to renumber RFC123456bis every time a new bis d= raft is released.
The RFC123456 SIDs MUST be preserved in each bi= s release, but none of the new "draft" SIDs need to be preserved.=

If the SID file recorded the previous version som= ehow then ANY SID generation
tool can create the correct file, bu= t without it, not even pyang can do it.

E.g.
=

RFC123456 published=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A02021-01-01=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draf= t=3Dfalse
RFC123456bis published=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2022-= 01-01=C2=A0 (-00)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft=3Dtrue
RFC123456bis publishe= d=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2022-02-01=C2=A0 (-01)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft=3Dtr= ue
RFC123456bis published=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2022-03-= 01=C2=A0 (-02)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft=3Dtrue

The b= is -00 MUST use RFC123456 as the --sid-update-file.
But -01 and -= 02 bis releases can choose to be a delta from any previous I-D or=C2=A0
start over with a delta from the RFC version.

If a per-SID flag is used, the ability to go back to a previous SID file= revision as the base is lost.
Once the SID is marked stable in a= new SID file, the tool does not know if it was marked
stable in = the RFC or later, so it can never change it back to unstable.
The ability for any tool to verify that a proper delta was gene= rated is needed and currently
does not exist. The [last-sid-file,= current-YANG-file] are needed for this purpose.

<= br>

<= div dir=3D"ltr">

Cheers,
Alexander


Andy
=C2=A0
=C2=A0

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

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--000000000000be96f705db62358c-- From nobody Tue Mar 29 15:22:40 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 169E93A0DA6 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 15:22:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G_HSoEFoOuRC for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 15:22:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw1-x1130.google.com (mail-yw1-x1130.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1130]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E841C3A0DA4 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 15:22:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw1-x1130.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-2e5e176e1b6so198980517b3.13 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 15:22:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=wYzML3IQPT3lTt1F3fPOa+4jTKR1D7eSHVk5dxwKNzU=; b=UdM2+8LELGhrnrSkVOICu2E4Z5+TadXiTgxmRQHorwitrrLi2NVAuW2Wi1whpKLCVm PONcy94DWmDuUb294ePKNT2y4zp9+vpfyInd3U9RK77h6fuMBFjVWlIQnWYqraREqOiu 36o0ghMAZ2ZgbMDFfHcs70Gxu/wm2/tSBERXE2GAtlkejTyzPgKmRI/5OoAabwU6eC8Y h8VGHCbXQUEXRMd6i1EH4hlwOpp8WTlUJmVV2OekRYt+sazgg9wr+6fkFK3nTi5IzbNk 0uEpTZr/zm2pWJZSqmwGOKOmtohfytuVgwB1AP5pDkIH2xeoiCm72YW+2sw6eoAej1uR EP1g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=wYzML3IQPT3lTt1F3fPOa+4jTKR1D7eSHVk5dxwKNzU=; b=2DouKzZfjFQhZWFJkrNBcVSs0rvSQxS36YigbrRmbve/bqeACu5WTHbtvnB3lkqI54 /ZPuaUkhrLw1fkZtBxDGDbGsJpHZxYb2+ne9cd3FPzkKN1sqPYTmoaDIiPAhM5JQ7PbU 1xRnK2QTTfmsHty0pRU/zMpvN/9p/vTJOPBMr727oOWIrpOizG77Fw+TywZ+YPO4XKm3 QS4ScVk4cCP15Lci5xfui1IDqxJfpln196X6AYrX35Gj+v4CbgchNXfPJlzmyOaStZ1R 46IE4Fz7qe7C7K3UPwII2THPyxj9LN96x9f4fmPi8BvgT1fotRxcJ/lVZKf/aPDRt9Cd PvGQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533iwn2aQiFiitxn9iIsfig/BRpDBSuYJUf9xrVskX/4f/RQKol7 Ob2jnOiruUyLb7ZIDHU8RAxLzKXPdc6SuWbaDb/8rQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxtijK/0kHmv3CxjaG983z0CVHRS7bWYYcU0k8q+pB+98vqFTRPHR7xd8+w0onsCpQ2BOAgkHorqTmxlbOefS4= X-Received: by 2002:a81:5dd6:0:b0:2d6:3041:12e0 with SMTP id r205-20020a815dd6000000b002d6304112e0mr33922554ywb.331.1648592551302; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 15:22:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <32267.1648146701@dooku> <4E8666FA-6F9E-48BF-9BF4-05B8EEC177D7@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: From: Andy Bierman Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 15:22:20 -0700 Message-ID: To: Alexander Pelov Cc: Carsten Bormann , "core@ietf.org WG (core@ietf.org)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000666cbf05db62ddc2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] SID file --- status entry for allocation X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 22:22:40 -0000 --000000000000666cbf05db62ddc2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 2:35 PM Alexander Pelov wrote: > Hi Andy, > > From what I understood until now, the stable/unstable tag is helpful only > to the authors that work on draft-123456bis-02 so that they can generate > new SIDs keeping the previously temporary allocated for draft-123456bis-0= 1. > The info used for --sid-update-file is needed in the SID file for a tool to read that SID file and decide if it is correct. > Once the document becomes and RFC the whole stable/unstable difference > becomes useless. Also, it is meaningless to anyone other than the authors > of the YANG file, between versions. > > The stable=3Dtrue flag is useful for developers and operators to know that the SID file is stable. IMO, the WG should regenerate the I-D SID file from the RFC each time, or at least done at the end before RFC publication. The most important factor for delta-SID performance is the difference between a SID for a container or list and its children. The best numbering is achieved by sorting the path identifiers once, NOT multiple times. Do you expect these to be used at any other moment? > Could be useful for debugging. There is plenty of info in the SID file used only to generate an updated SID file. > (I do agree adding metadata such as dare created, "draft", or other file > level may be useful) > > The current pyang design is limited (without a sid-file-version in the filename). The date in the filename is tied to the YANG module revision, not the SID file. If imported groupings change, a new SID file using the same revision date is needed to pick up these imported changes. The 'parent' is a SID file, not a YANG file, so it needs the identifier [module-name, module-revision, sid-file-version]. Cheers, > Alexander > > > Andy > > > > > Le mar. 29 mars 2022, 23:03, Andy Bierman a =C3=A9cr= it : > >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 1:20 PM Alexander Pelov wrote: >> >>> Hi Andy, Michael, all, >>> >>> Thanks for the examples ! >>> >>> Once again, to see if we are on the same page, the problem seems to com= e >>> from needing two SID files: >>> RFC123456 and the last work version of RFC123456bis-02 (because of you >>> have both you can infer the immutable from RFC123456 and the provisionn= aly >>> allocated for the RFC123456bis-01). >>> >>> If this is the case, isn't it simply solved by saving a >>> RFC123456bis-01.sid and then using pyang --sid-update-file >>> RFC123456bis-01.sid to generate the RFC123456bis-02.sid >>> >>> And if you want to have RFC123456bis-03.sid renumber from the 01 versio= n >>> you simply do it based on RFC123456bis-01.sid. >>> >> >> >> Yes. >> >> I want some operational verification of the SID file to be possible >> A more robust solution can be achieved if the SID file stored the >> following information: >> >> - parent-stable: the revision-date of the stable ancestor for this SI= D >> file. >> (present only if there is a stable ancestor e.g. RFC123456.sid) >> >> - parent-unstable: the revision-date for the parent of this SID file. >> (present only if this is draft and the parent is not the same as >> parent-stable) >> >> - draft: TRUE if this is a work-in-progress; FALSE if this is a >> published and stable SID file >> >> It should be possible for one SID tool to check the correctness of a SID >> file. >> Currently there is not even a datestamp or a checksum or any of the >> metadata >> (passed to pyang as parameters) saved in the SID file. >> >> It's just that I get the feeling we are trying to do version control her= e >>> and if this is the case I would really prefer we stick to git and some = best >>> practices. >>> >> >> >> There is an assumption that SID files are like YANG modules, but they ar= e >> not. >> A SID file expands the YANG module and therefore relies on all the >> imports. >> If a YANG module uses groupings (about 90% of them?) then it is quite >> possible >> for the SID file to change even if the YANG module it is for did not >> change. >> >> I am much more concerned about operational robustness than the ability >> for a WG writing a bis-draft to save a few extra bytes in the CBOR >> encoding. >> >> >> >> >> >>> Cheers, >>> Alexander >>> >>> >>> >> Andy >> >> >>> >>> Le lun. 28 mars 2022, 23:54, Andy Bierman a =C3=A9= crit : >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 2:04 PM Alexander Pelov wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi again, >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for the clarifications! >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 4:34 PM Carsten Bormann wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 2022-03-28, at 16:30, Alexander Pelov wrote: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > From what I understand, the problem we are trying to solve is (and >>>>>> I am paraphrasing to see if we are on the same page) to try to limit= and >>>>>> have one SID per YANG name. Something like a 'canonical SID' (which = would >>>>>> make for a bijective correspondence "YANG name" <-> "canonical SID",= for >>>>>> YANG modules that have SID allocations). >>>>>> >>>>>> Indeed. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It seems to me that the "canonical SID" property is nice to have (but >>>>> not a must have, because it cannot be really guaranteed). >>>>> >>>>> The SID files winding up somewhere are the real pain here -> which is >>>>> actually simpler to solve if you consider that the definitive allocat= ion is >>>>> an atomic operation. >>>>> >>>>> Say, you have RFC123456.yang, with allocation of SIDs described in >>>>> RFC123456.SID. >>>>> Now, you have draft-RFC123456bis.yang -> until this one becomes an >>>>> RFC, the corresponding SID file can be considered in its entirety as >>>>> provisional allocation / temporary / draft / unstable. >>>>> >>>>> In that sense, the stable/unstable (or other term for the same >>>>> meaning) works on the file level and is in direct connection to the Y= ANG >>>>> file. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Agreed >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> > Is there something else we are trying to solve with the >>>>>> "stable/unstable" solution? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> The main observation is that these SID files may get wings and may >>>>>> turn up in places where they were not meant to be. Being able to id= entify >>>>>> that some of the SID allocations in a SID file are still unstable ma= y help >>>>>> in avoiding these SIDs turning up in production. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> During development, to know which SIDs you can regenerate freely and >>>>> which you CANNOT because they have been allocated in a "parent" modul= e, you >>>>> only need the full history of the YANG / SID allocation. This you nee= d in >>>>> any case to do the check, and the per-range stable/unstable option ca= n be >>>>> seen as a way to ease the life of a tool developer, but cannot be use= d to >>>>> actually be trusted. >>>>> >>>>> The example is the following: >>>>> The developers of draft-RFC123456bis.yang have access to both >>>>> RFC123456.yang and RFC123456.SID. When you allocate SIDs for >>>>> draft-RFC123456bis.yang, it is a very straightforward operation to ma= ke the >>>>> diff between what's already in RFC123456.SID and what needs to be all= ocated >>>>> and in what manner. As a matter of fact, "pyang sid" already does thi= s! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Does that make sense? Can we simply have a per-SID-file "draft" >>>>> property? >>>>> >>>> >>>> Almost. >>>> >>>> It would be set if the SID file also records the "last-sid-file" >>>> revision somehow. >>>> The pyang tool requires this for the --sid-update-file parameter. >>>> >>>> A WG does not need to renumber RFC123456bis every time a new bis draft >>>> is released. >>>> The RFC123456 SIDs MUST be preserved in each bis release, but none of >>>> the new "draft" SIDs need to be preserved. >>>> >>>> If the SID file recorded the previous version somehow then ANY SID >>>> generation >>>> tool can create the correct file, but without it, not even pyang can d= o >>>> it. >>>> >>>> E.g. >>>> >>>> RFC123456 published 2021-01-01 draft=3Dfalse >>>> RFC123456bis published 2022-01-01 (-00) draft=3Dtrue >>>> RFC123456bis published 2022-02-01 (-01) draft=3Dtrue >>>> RFC123456bis published 2022-03-01 (-02) draft=3Dtrue >>>> >>>> The bis -00 MUST use RFC123456 as the --sid-update-file. >>>> But -01 and -02 bis releases can choose to be a delta from any previou= s >>>> I-D or >>>> start over with a delta from the RFC version. >>>> >>>> If a per-SID flag is used, the ability to go back to a previous SID >>>> file revision as the base is lost. >>>> Once the SID is marked stable in a new SID file, the tool does not kno= w >>>> if it was marked >>>> stable in the RFC or later, so it can never change it back to unstable= . >>>> >>>> The ability for any tool to verify that a proper delta was generated i= s >>>> needed and currently >>>> does not exist. The [last-sid-file, current-YANG-file] are needed for >>>> this purpose. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Alexander >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> core mailing list >>>>> core@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core >>>>> >>>> --000000000000666cbf05db62ddc2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 2:35 PM Alexa= nder Pelov <a@ackl.io> wrote:
Hi Andy,=C2=A0

From what I understood until now= , the stable/unstable tag is helpful only to the authors that work on draft= -123456bis-02 so that they can generate new SIDs keeping the previously tem= porary allocated for draft-123456bis-01.=C2=A0

The info used for --sid-update-file is needed in the SID fi= le for a tool
to read that SID file and decide if it is correct.<= /div>



= Once the document becomes and RFC the whole stable/unstable difference beco= mes useless. Also, it is meaningless to anyone other than the authors of th= e YANG file, between versions.


The stable=3Dtrue flag is useful for developers= and operators to=C2=A0 know that the SID file is stable.

IMO, the WG should regenerate the I-D SID file from the RFC each ti= me, or at least
done at the end before RFC publication.

The most important factor for delta-SID performance is the = difference between
a SID for a container or list and its children= .=C2=A0 The best numbering is achieved
by sorting the path identi= fiers once, NOT multiple times.

Do you expect these to be used at any other moment?
=

Could be useful for debugging.
T= here is plenty of info in the SID file used only to generate an updated SID= file.



(I do agree adding metadata such as dare created, "draft", = or other file level may be useful)

<= /blockquote>


The current pyang design is = limited (without a sid-file-version in the filename).
The date in= the filename is tied to the YANG module revision, not the SID file.
<= div>If imported groupings change, a new SID file using the same revision da= te
is needed to pick up these imported changes.=C2=A0 The 'pa= rent' is a SID file, not a YANG
file, so it needs the identif= ier [module-name, module-revision, sid-file-version].

<= div>
Cheers,
Alexander=C2=A0


Andy
=C2=A0




Le mar. 29 mars 2022, 23:03, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com= > a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:


On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 1:= 20 PM Alexander Pelov <a@ackl.io> wrote:
Hi Andy, Michael, all,

Thanks for the examples !

Once again, to see if we are on the= same page, the problem seems to come from needing two SID files:
RFC123456 and the last work version of RFC123456bis-02 (becau= se of you have both you can infer the immutable from RFC123456 and the prov= isionnaly allocated for the RFC123456bis-01).

If this is the case, isn't it simply solved by sa= ving a RFC123456bis-01.sid and then using pyang --sid-update-file RFC123456= bis-01.sid to generate the RFC123456bis-02.sid

<= /div>
And if you want to have RFC123456bis-03.sid renumber= from the 01 version you simply do it based on RFC123456bis-01.sid.


Yes.

I want some operational verification of the SID file to be possible<= /div>
A more robust solution can be achieved if the SID file stored the= following information:=C2=A0

=C2=A0 - parent-stab= le:=C2=A0 the revision-date of the stable ancestor for this SID file.
=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(present only if there is a stable ancestor e.g. R= FC123456.sid)

=C2=A0 - parent-unstable: the revisi= on-date for the parent of this SID file.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(pre= sent only if this is draft and the parent is not the same as parent-stable)=

=C2=A0 - draft: TRUE if this is a work-in-progres= s; FALSE if this is a published and stable SID file

It should be possible for one SID tool to check the correctness of a SID = file.
Currently there is not even a datestamp=C2=A0or a checksum = or any of the metadata
(passed to pyang as parameters) saved in t= he SID file.

It's just that I get the fe= eling we are trying to do version control here and if this is the case I wo= uld really prefer we stick to git and some best practices.


There is an assumption that SID = files are like YANG modules, but they are not.
A SID file expands= the YANG module and therefore relies on all the imports.
If a YA= NG module uses groupings (about 90% of them?) then it is quite possible
for the SID file to change even if the YANG module it is for did not= change.

I am much more concerned about operationa= l robustness than the ability
for a WG writing a bis-draft to sav= e a few extra bytes in the CBOR encoding.





Chee= rs,=C2=A0
Alexander=C2=A0


Andy
=C2=A0

<= div class=3D"gmail_quote" dir=3D"auto">
Le lun. 28 mars 2022, 23:54, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> = a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:


On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 2:04 PM A= lexander Pelov <a@ackl.io> wrote:
Hi again,
Thanks for the clarifications!

On Mon, Mar 28, 2022= at 4:34 PM Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On 2022-03-28, at 16:30, A= lexander Pelov <a@ackl.io> wrote:
>
> From what I understand, the problem we are trying to solve is (and I a= m paraphrasing to see if we are on the same page) to try to limit and have = one SID per YANG name. Something like a 'canonical SID' (which woul= d make for a bijective correspondence "YANG name" <-> "= ;canonical SID", for YANG modules that have SID allocations).

Indeed.=C2=A0

It seems to me that the = "canonical SID" property is nice to have (but not a must have, be= cause it cannot be really guaranteed).

The SID fil= es winding up somewhere are the real pain here -> which is actually simp= ler to solve if you consider that the definitive allocation is an atomic op= eration.=C2=A0

Say, you have RFC123456.yang, with = allocation of SIDs described in RFC123456.SID.
Now, you have draf= t-RFC123456bis.yang=C2=A0-> until this one becomes an RFC, the correspon= ding SID file can be considered in its entirety as provisional allocation /= temporary / draft / unstable.=C2=A0

In that sense= , the stable/unstable (or other term for the same meaning) works on the fil= e level and is in direct connection to the YANG file.
=C2= =A0


Agreed=

=C2=A0
> Is there something else we are trying to solve with the "stable/u= nstable" solution?=C2=A0

The main observation is that these SID files may get wings and may turn up = in places where they were not meant to be.=C2=A0 Being able to identify tha= t some of the SID allocations in a SID file are still unstable may help in = avoiding these SIDs turning up in production.


During development, to know which SIDs you can r= egenerate freely and which you CANNOT because they have been allocated in a= "parent" module, you only need the full history of the YANG / SI= D allocation. This you need in any case to do the check, and the per-range = stable/unstable option can be seen as a way to ease the life of a tool deve= loper, but cannot be used to actually be trusted.

= The example is the following:
The developers of draft-RFC123456bi= s.yang have access to both RFC123456.yang=C2=A0and=C2=A0RFC123456.SID. When= you allocate SIDs for draft-RFC123456bis.yang, it is a very straightforwar= d=C2=A0operation=C2=A0to make the diff between what's already in RFC123= 456.SID and what needs to be allocated and in what manner. As a matter of f= act, "pyang sid" already does this!


Does that make sense? Can we simply have a per-SID-file &q= uot;draft" property?=C2=A0

Almost.

It would be set if the SID file als= o records the "last-sid-file" revision somehow.
The pya= ng tool requires this for the --sid-update-file parameter.

A WG does not need to renumber RFC123456bis every time a new bis d= raft is released.
The RFC123456 SIDs MUST be preserved in each bi= s release, but none of the new "draft" SIDs need to be preserved.=

If the SID file recorded the previous version som= ehow then ANY SID generation
tool can create the correct file, bu= t without it, not even pyang can do it.

E.g.
=

RFC123456 published=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A02021-01-01=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draf= t=3Dfalse
RFC123456bis published=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2022-= 01-01=C2=A0 (-00)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft=3Dtrue
RFC123456bis publishe= d=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2022-02-01=C2=A0 (-01)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft=3Dtr= ue
RFC123456bis published=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2022-03-= 01=C2=A0 (-02)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft=3Dtrue

The b= is -00 MUST use RFC123456 as the --sid-update-file.
But -01 and -= 02 bis releases can choose to be a delta from any previous I-D or=C2=A0
start over with a delta from the RFC version.

If a per-SID flag is used, the ability to go back to a previous SID file= revision as the base is lost.
Once the SID is marked stable in a= new SID file, the tool does not know if it was marked
stable in = the RFC or later, so it can never change it back to unstable.
The ability for any tool to verify that a proper delta was gene= rated is needed and currently
does not exist. The [last-sid-file,= current-YANG-file] are needed for this purpose.

<= br>

<= div dir=3D"ltr">

Cheers,
Alexander


Andy
=C2=A0
=C2=A0

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

_______________________________________________
core mailing list
core@ietf.org
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name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEOEo4cV326Z7GypVg7iZktA5Y2kMFAmJECn8FAwAAAAAACgkQ7iZktA5Y2kNg Xgf/bBKV2lnVuPdqHvCArPDR5MwfU5gIyw8rXSNJ+xUAkmC5rpL5zIdXOpnlLM4ELnVCWrB7xYyg GSWWaIc7VSwcaNLJ5ROF8Dt4nXAB5dgD+7+4B+ZEKH/gMBVMFsK7hYlMc6QZEZuE377mDtM2Nb7a qsB5P8ClIDeZFEEuhtGn/4dfUm0/XVCrblsoyZFsqApzWc6D1y8My45kVLYQiEVNsgM4qu71nQrZ BuANYv0jMHqcNO1mgdhqiToRro+t8QvcGbYr9OORBOfgaVi4gRvw/47IhQ7yMG0yShqTbqp4M9Kh kmWtCQ21/fZk9oSBj8DJgZEAoKLR8h6aMmTKGRaMww== =VXM8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------KAFHpnE5GMFzIRx7upD0fgCE-- From nobody Wed Mar 30 00:57:49 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97A963A1068 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 00:57:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.11 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.11 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEOEo4cV326Z7GypVg7iZktA5Y2kMFAmJEDW8FAwAAAAAACgkQ7iZktA5Y2kMx FQf/Wa0vP04yyhMZiCnoUUXS7erfZ9x++eH6m8YT7nn/T3ITsNUgvDZWyWegBR+DUBYU0lISU1Q8 HB5oPt3s/7KScboFlteYhqE3fJ+S2ZSG1NtBh0KhVsekugYDDdN1tju92Ta1gVZ305SFNABO2NQg cLe3GF4DZ+PxsTcsNptyF1n2TEuC50qs3TC9O/3KlBLKtYWW70hZiAr8f+WCJ1MrMGucr70DkgIQ cVdFySqVkawlIgMQBPG06AKJrD1IRU3/vGtwXieoC23lCZxYotcqZeE0CE8DCEjcSAp+a3rVFcIV XF97EJ71uYBADPQOYvCtZsSG/9H9/eUAEmRiu6TRjg== =waNd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------cqWtKh1CZKpE1UqRFSwziWjt-- From nobody Wed Mar 30 01:00:47 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietf.org Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA83E3A10A4; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 01:00:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Secretariat To: , , X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.46.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <164862724478.26451.12169127734559884078@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 01:00:44 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [core] The CORE WG has placed draft-amsuess-core-transport-indication in state "Call For Adoption By WG Issued" X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 08:00:45 -0000 The CORE WG has placed draft-amsuess-core-transport-indication in state Call For Adoption By WG Issued (entered by Marco Tiloca) The document is available at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-amsuess-core-transport-indication/ From nobody Wed Mar 30 09:44:36 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A34B3A14E9 for ; 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Wed, 30 Mar 2022 12:44:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Alexander Pelov cc: Andy Bierman , "core\@ietf.org WG \(core\@ietf.org\)" In-Reply-To: References: <32267.1648146701@dooku> <4E8666FA-6F9E-48BF-9BF4-05B8EEC177D7@tzi.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] SID file --- status entry for allocation X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 16:44:34 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alexander Pelov wrote: > From what I understood until now, the stable/unstable tag is helpful = only > to the authors that work on draft-123456bis-02 so that they can gener= ate > new SIDs keeping the previously temporary allocated for > draft-123456bis-01. Correct. > Once the document becomes and RFC the whole stable/unstable difference > becomes useless. Also, it is meaningless to anyone other than the aut= hors > of the YANG file, between versions. Correct. If someone feeds the SID file into a code generator, then we want the result to be clearly marked as unstable... do not ship to customers, etc. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmJEiOQACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVWZAf9HEthbJycnBcoJkg1DGj9UQ0YDmTtd3WPxcvyftb+2pMdXQtTJR1TzPqi ueTU67gk54DVfmQk4pvuKdqeyQXWfEznRj6qD/WA76omJR16SO8ZrJQQ6IzrOFFt hN/KaijhFqJT0Xn6TD3skDfy2YMWCahV5IuIs7BmDKY97ygq40wrNgGUe5gOD8Ta lTfhqoe85dmWnSVEAdmNTIz21GrUaLGdnnbMU23kamw5d2VtJflm4gcVsEQzYvgi RGq4MKoHTrkdWNVbjEeeuQGO38ZwUEK9uzYV7BkOii70Oc9BVTGOvMT6Wg52Mh1y XLnnkfqKiL41tHHQAq2RYWK2hLbP8Q== =VFxZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--