From nobody Fri Mar 1 05:49:23 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dbound@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dbound@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 259C9130E79 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2019 05:49:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nUnZ_Zo2iXkV for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2019 05:49:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x830.google.com (mail-qt1-x830.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::830]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 16DEE124BAA for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2019 05:49:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x830.google.com with SMTP id z39so27788395qtz.0 for ; Fri, 01 Mar 2019 05:49:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:date:references :to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=Izs/PxD2+eAASDTMxiBBVrq6Ss3DXLn3FfRa4h9oR10=; b=MyuIu0q4WhAw/XUypQqqRu0aD2cyZdBOKBh6DXKepDHpZHdoX+dloIYPEgW0dA2i29 Puxn/I0M/y536hCKU9rIx5gCrBfOgWTa0qqg01RuU41jKg7bjQ54k15F+OeEg9+3Yn3l H5Idx3JwilWBNg7+xfwtBvmOHYKamL8VgfGPmWjF4hasGQWxD6BSP6dVTj/ZLE2TcHqK IDl8LcXXb69wfPVlUUedosoo28sesXTiDvnQV02Ey8sxzZR/2T1PKQGmAaP9BRYdfGOe Z14ZKg9GuNJng0of3ZYcO/ttzf0FMFmCDd/s53A3mW41snZ9TWQB+ixo1fVE74vAM9Se fKuA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=Izs/PxD2+eAASDTMxiBBVrq6Ss3DXLn3FfRa4h9oR10=; b=P7yQeh9wTit0Ale7TKv2ykl62uB12+3yaKMoOLIH7cfE0MW+UuLDd1gRRwySpSudFF 5FlqJxuVMVf7DPKYdKqBV+FAcAWB6DpWzKUWEqBAqIwzPafA3k6e6LB8QAOwHTK15M07 xdOGmogvfx5gFrzz4blxGsMM1jsM1fA7PXt4Yk56hpf9iMOkxYt+Toocqguu6JEbFtnl 73KsNv4UCg3wkSs2Yvf/J47rlF4NwE35QnB9Lr+76pgOVBnefBHTXtusCmoeCgPsugcb 74MP1OPfoTRkNJ5HBy71FXdOMCVJ/lKXls6GVS45wM3asFt65FsgP+dQlnqMPrM14EzS 8pdw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXNWztSer4sxAPW4AMSqkeECkwL3xICnV+35sgigfoTNwhsGB3x QzpGoMLNQMgrHZPK7jhy3QolQjy8 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxHdaVJbFsX91qqdFyGBtgYZCgK/FdfFQjMGFrg1QtWRf3YLATHIW4rdD2hTi5O7x2i4D1PgQ== X-Received: by 2002:a0c:d2d4:: with SMTP id x20mr1120042qvh.227.1551448157745; Fri, 01 Mar 2019 05:49:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:181:c381:29fe:55e7:7561:af61:cbf1? ([2601:181:c381:29fe:55e7:7561:af61:cbf1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f29sm16308253qte.11.2019.03.01.05.49.16 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 01 Mar 2019 05:49:16 -0800 (PST) From: Suzanne Woolf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2019 08:49:15 -0500 References: <20190227172143.10303200F57CE0@ary.local> <1FFA1977E97DE99C390869DA@PSB> <49A2FC767B5A7146F39456B9@PSB> To: dbound@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <49A2FC767B5A7146F39456B9@PSB> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dbound] [art] [DNSOP] not DNAME, was Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft X-BeenThere: dbound@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DNS tree bounds List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2019 13:49:22 -0000 Hi, (I realize the current draft is a -00, so comments are intended to be = helpful towards a -01, not complaints that a -00 isn=E2=80=99t cooked = yet.) > On Feb 27, 2019, at 10:52 PM, John C Klensin = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > --On Wednesday, February 27, 2019 20:48 -0500 John R Levine > wrote: >=20 >=20 >> This issue has been argued at great length with proposals like >> BNAME and CLONE so let's not redo it here. >=20 > Indeed. >=20 One high-level upshot of all this is that the usability of any mechanism = that=E2=80=99s ever been proposed to implement notions like =E2=80=9Crelat= ed to=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cvariant of=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Calias for=E2=80= =9D in the DNS depends a lot on exactly what behavior is desired for = servers, resolvers, and applications=E2=80=A6.and what tradeoffs, in = terms of security and administrative burden, are acceptable.=20 The RDBD mechanism feels like it=E2=80=99s intended to be a building = block to something else, maybe several somethings, but the effort to be = simple and generally applicable means it=E2=80=99s hard to tell exactly = what applications or use cases would benefit from it. Previous discussions along these lines, as some comments upthread might = make clear, tended to bog down in the fact that there are lots of = nuances of behavior that people want in their =E2=80=9Caliases=E2=80=9D = or =E2=80=9Cvariants=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Crelated names,=E2=80=9D and it = can be hard to get the description right-- but otherwise, all too often = it turns out that use cases that seem intuitively similar actually = aren=E2=80=99t. Even conversations about =E2=80=9Cvariants=E2=80=9D in = the context of IDNA tend to lead to sudden discoveries that in = situations that are seemingly alike in all the important ways, the = desired behavior is still very different for particular applications or = users. I=E2=80=99m not sure how to make this better, except the proposal as = currently written is reminding me that previous attempts started simple = and didn=E2=80=99t stay that way because the longer people looked at the = set of problems they cared about, the more bells and whistles they felt = they needed. This is a hard tendency to resist and requires a lot of = clarity on the goals actually being pursued. (DNSOP discussions on = proposals like ANAME and BNAME have demonstrated the same thing.) My memories of DBOUND are not reliable but I do recall a distinct sense = that people thought they were talking about "the same thing" and = repeatedly discovering that maybe they weren=E2=80=99t. Accordingly, I=E2=80=99d like to see an example or two of how you=E2=80=99= d expect an application to use the kind of connection between domains = established by the RDBD mechanism.=20 I=E2=80=99m looking forward to reading the -01. 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Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="CmNbJqqjeuKTEl4gxXxYbheMIrBRxx3Iu" Archived-At: Subject: [dbound] draft-brotman-rdbd-01 X-BeenThere: dbound@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DNS tree bounds List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2019 22:04:25 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --CmNbJqqjeuKTEl4gxXxYbheMIrBRxx3Iu Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="sQR41B0XXrox3R6anXHJ9tufCFgF0vWpi"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "dbound@ietf.org" Message-ID: <6fba7875-f403-0754-5580-ae7df9a2c39b@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: draft-brotman-rdbd-01 --sQR41B0XXrox3R6anXHJ9tufCFgF0vWpi Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------C02B5EF7B4DE0044542DDF51" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------C02B5EF7B4DE0044542DDF51 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Thanks for all the comments so far. We've submitted -01 [1] that we hope handles a bunch of those issues so might be a better basis for further discussion. Comments are most welcome... Cheers, S. [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brotman-rdbd-01 --------------C02B5EF7B4DE0044542DDF51 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9t 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amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.234 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.234 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aJl66iRlfFQF for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2019 12:30:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [204.107.128.30]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D820C1279A3 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2019 12:30:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from 31-38-175.wireless.csail.mit.edu (31-38-175.wireless.csail.mit.edu [128.31.38.175]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 07941CE820; Fri, 8 Mar 2019 20:30:04 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2019 15:30:03 -0500 (EST) From: Samuel Weiler To: dbound@ietf.org cc: Stephen Farrell In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <20190227172143.10303200F57CE0@ary.local> <1FFA1977E97DE99C390869DA@PSB> <49A2FC767B5A7146F39456B9@PSB> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (OSX 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; BOUNDARY="0-2033760801-1552076279=:70761" Content-ID: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dbound] [art] [DNSOP] not DNAME, was Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft X-BeenThere: dbound@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DNS tree bounds List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2019 20:30:12 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-2033760801-1552076279=:70761 Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=ISO-8859-7; FORMAT=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Content-ID: On Fri, 1 Mar 2019, Suzanne Woolf wrote: > My memories of DBOUND are not reliable but I do recall a distinct > sense that people thought they were talking about "the same thing" > and repeatedly discovering that maybe they weren¢t. > > Accordingly, I¢d like to see an example or two of how you¢d expect > an application to use the kind of connection between domains > established by the RDBD mechanism. +1. Reading back through the end-of-DBOUND discussions from 2016, I'm having these same thoughts. Digging into two details: I don't understand the value added by publishing new keys - and signing with a new signature format - when there's no evident way to bootstrap trust in those keys. Could you explain (again) the value being added? (I see value from using DNSSEC, but if we insist on DNSSEC, we don't need these other pieces.) The DBOUND problem statement draft covered a number of "use cases that seem intuitively similar [but] actually aren't" (quoting Suzanne). Even so, it made a general recommendation in the security considerations section: "In general, positive assertions about another name should never be accepted without querying the other name for agreement." I'm surprised to not see that reflected in this draft. Indeed, the discussion here suggests that this is an explicit non-requirement. So I want to know more about the use case(s) you're tackling and why checking the symmetry of assertions is not necessary. https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-sullivan-dbound-problem-statement-02.txt -- Sam --0-2033760801-1552076279=:70761-- From nobody Fri Mar 8 12:38:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dbound@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dbound@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2141812AF83 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2019 12:38:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.235 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.235 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eCfE0Foni8Pr for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2019 12:38:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [204.107.128.30]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E9971277CE for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2019 12:38:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from 31-38-175.wireless.csail.mit.edu (31-38-175.wireless.csail.mit.edu [128.31.38.175]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id ABC25CF9C2 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2019 20:38:44 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2019 15:38:44 -0500 (EST) From: Samuel Weiler To: "dbound@ietf.org" Message-ID: User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (OSX 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: [dbound] First-Party sets proposal X-BeenThere: dbound@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DNS tree bounds List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2019 20:38:49 -0000 As long as we are looking at new ideas in this space... Mike West has a proposal to address some of the webbier use cases. Rather than use the DNS, this uses JSON files served over HTTPS, so the trust is rooted in TLS. https://github.com/mikewest/first-party-sets Subscribers to this (DBOUND) list might be interested in commenting on Mike's proposal. I suggest comments in GitHub or on the public-webappsec@w3.org list (which anyone may subscribe to - no W3C membership needed). -- Sam From nobody Fri Mar 8 14:22:05 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dbound@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dbound@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D52CE1277C9 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2019 14:22:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S2PsR0Gy4P0v for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2019 14:22:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA0CA12716C for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2019 14:22:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7590BE50; Fri, 8 Mar 2019 22:21:55 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7IFU5LPCKYua; Fri, 8 Mar 2019 22:21:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.244.2.138] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 940ADBE38; Fri, 8 Mar 2019 22:21:52 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1552083712; bh=qM0GDf/VwfyCGwcbgZwns++FajXt9gAU7BTTq+V2SK0=; h=To:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=lyeTWhtiJJos5yTU24stYTD88aRuIfYeNhq56NjBivqx2xcSGgb+Ts/+VUC7j3cK7 D+dW8V+aEnWRlVl7UX1vpMW7Ukh9lhX6MONh2IZGlSuibtFG2Lj9IJFKkP0jMai7dx 6i3Nb/kpbHEc8g9F/BZU+W1wZuIziGnwD5KmJkwk= To: Samuel Weiler , dbound@ietf.org References: <20190227172143.10303200F57CE0@ary.local> <1FFA1977E97DE99C390869DA@PSB> <49A2FC767B5A7146F39456B9@PSB> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; 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Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="G0rXrtHlyT5Rbwgp2kg09lXSfPiIRTQGu" Archived-At: Subject: [dbound] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft X-BeenThere: dbound@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DNS tree bounds List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2019 22:22:05 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --G0rXrtHlyT5Rbwgp2kg09lXSfPiIRTQGu Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="xEvSQPLqGbxHbcw7NC35p8Ea6GqOTZDqs"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Samuel Weiler , dbound@ietf.org Message-ID: <87a520c1-194a-ffd7-b58f-fea6e549d090@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft References: <20190227172143.10303200F57CE0@ary.local> <1FFA1977E97DE99C390869DA@PSB> <49A2FC767B5A7146F39456B9@PSB> In-Reply-To: --xEvSQPLqGbxHbcw7NC35p8Ea6GqOTZDqs Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------186F7C7BD43FD0A64DA566BE" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------186F7C7BD43FD0A64DA566BE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Sam, (Fixing the subject a bit - there's no DNAME here:-) On 08/03/2019 20:30, Samuel Weiler wrote: > On Fri, 1 Mar 2019, Suzanne Woolf wrote: >=20 >> My memories of DBOUND are not reliable but I do recall a distinct >> sense that people thought they were talking about "the same thing" and= >> repeatedly discovering that maybe they weren=E2=80=99t. >> >> Accordingly, I=E2=80=99d like to see an example or two of how you=E2=80= =99d expect an >> application to use the kind of connection between domains established >> by the RDBD mechanism. >=20 > +1. We added some text on that in -01, in the intro. See the top of page 3. Wasn't that clear enough? That text is deliberately terse and not intended to outline a complete set of use-cases. My take is that part of the reason DBOUND failed was an attempt to be all things to all parties. I think repeating such an attempt with RDBD would lead to the same failure. I at least, (and I think Alex too), are determined to not have this fail for that particular reason. (It may fail for others of course:-) Just because we're using this list does not mean we have to repeat the collective mistakes to which we variously previously contributed using this list:-) As a consequence I also think it is perfectly fine if RDBD suffices only for one or a couple of purposes. If it does, and usefully enough that it gets deployed, and doesn't do damage otherwise, the rest can look after themselves later. So even if there are additional credible use-cases, (and I guess there are) I don't really care or want to discuss those myself as doing so is likely to lead to the same failure outcome as occurred with DBOUND. It is also of course fine to disagree that our chosen bit of the design space is the place to stick a stake in the ground. In that case, I'd be happy to discuss other folks' stakes and locations for 'em once I see their I-D. Meanwhile, we'd like to discuss this particular design (and not all possible others) and find out if it looks good enough for all the people who'd need to, to do the work required to get such RRs published and used. > Reading back through the end-of-DBOUND discussions from 2016, I'm havin= g > these same thoughts. >=20 > Digging into two details: >=20 > I don't understand the value added by publishing new keys - and signing= > with a new signature format - when there's no evident way to bootstrap > trust in those keys.=C2=A0 Could you explain (again) the value being ad= ded?=C2=A0 > (I see value from using DNSSEC, but if we insist on DNSSEC, we don't > need these other pieces.) That comes from the history of DKIM I guess. It turns out that unsigned keys in DNS demonstrably can provide some value if they get (re-)used. In this case, a signature indicates that the relating-domain (or private-key-holder) was involved in the declaration that a relationship exists. (Or that an active attack is ongoing, which is ok, there's still value as not all transactions are under active attack all the time. See RFC 7435.) That said, I fully accept that the added value of the (now optional) signatures isn't too high. See my earlier discussion with John L. > The DBOUND problem statement draft covered a number of "use cases that > seem intuitively similar [but] actually aren't" (quoting Suzanne). Even= > so, it made a general recommendation in the security considerations > section: "In general, positive assertions about another name should > never be accepted without querying the other name for agreement."=C2=A0= I'm > surprised to not see that reflected in this draft. Indeed, the > discussion here suggests that this is an explicit non-requirement.=C2=A0= =20 We're not starting from the DBOUND problem statement here. If you were to ask me would I do that, my answer would be "no thanks, that didn't work before." > So I > want to know more about the use case(s) you're tackling=20 Sure. Happy to take any questions on the text we added. > and why checking > the symmetry of assertions is not necessary. If you want symmetry, then just do this trick twice. I don't see any issue with that. I also don't think all relationship are symmetric, so it just seems to make sense to support asymmetry too. Cheers, S. >=20 > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-sullivan-dbound-problem-statement= -02.txt >=20 >=20 > -- Sam --------------186F7C7BD43FD0A64DA566BE Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 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SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bQELjqnnUnZm for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2019 13:13:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [204.107.128.30]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6E01126C87 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2019 13:13:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 31-33-2.wireless.csail.mit.edu (31-33-2.wireless.csail.mit.edu [128.31.33.2]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E8FBFC892F; Thu, 14 Mar 2019 20:13:23 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2019 16:13:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Samuel Weiler To: Stephen Farrell cc: dbound@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <87a520c1-194a-ffd7-b58f-fea6e549d090@cs.tcd.ie> Message-ID: References: <20190227172143.10303200F57CE0@ary.local> <1FFA1977E97DE99C390869DA@PSB> <49A2FC767B5A7146F39456B9@PSB> <87a520c1-194a-ffd7-b58f-fea6e549d090@cs.tcd.ie> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (OSX 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; BOUNDARY="0-164857079-1552594403=:97311" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dbound] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft X-BeenThere: dbound@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DNS tree bounds List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2019 20:13:27 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-164857079-1552594403=:97311 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Fri, 8 Mar 2019, Stephen Farrell wrote: >>> Accordingly, I’d like to see an example or two of how you’d expect an >>> application to use the kind of connection between domains established >>> by the RDBD mechanism. ... > We added some text on that in -01, in the intro. See the top > of page 3. Wasn't that clear enough? No, it is not. Those are pretty broad use cases. I want to see them more specifically defined. e.g. "correlate the ownership of websites in different languages" is still pretty broad. WHO do you want to do the correlation? (Which pieces of code?) Is this for statistics and analysis (only) - e.g. so the Alexa list reflects the aggregate of correlated sites? Or do you want client code doing something? Do you want cookies shared? Credentials? I realize that this could touch many parts of the stack. Put another way, if you're right that: > ... part of the reason DBOUND failed was an > attempt to be all things to all parties. I think repeating > such an attempt with RDBD would lead to the same failure. Then the use case(s) needs to be very clear. -- Sam --0-164857079-1552594403=:97311-- From nobody Fri Mar 15 10:39:07 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dbound@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dbound@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D45CE130E86 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2019 10:39:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9jyZND3NbU-B for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2019 10:39:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 647C112958B for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2019 10:39:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0844ABE6F; Fri, 15 Mar 2019 17:38:58 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pxBMrpSUYIHW; Fri, 15 Mar 2019 17:38:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.244.2.138] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2F34BBE38; Fri, 15 Mar 2019 17:38:56 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1552671536; bh=dzxHc7gBNO+Oog//sO2OUUnbRiBlzlognrDPRLtjbeE=; h=To:Cc:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=e/zPwWtUdnTkdGZ6/0DrdhGu8baDoGddS88x4fnp7rMlPx4ga0FqbuiGhAigbcQPW Ii7WG0GqlUd7Skp230c6URDiEo0NLUW8LTUpAk/V4s5NFixunpiq8JPaA40DQdCrZt yOO9W3+SMHNlLMxFxpiprJhjQzUZC/8jgCIteOcI= To: Samuel Weiler Cc: dbound@ietf.org References: <20190227172143.10303200F57CE0@ary.local> <1FFA1977E97DE99C390869DA@PSB> <49A2FC767B5A7146F39456B9@PSB> <87a520c1-194a-ffd7-b58f-fea6e549d090@cs.tcd.ie> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; 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Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="AEtbsKhutifNKLiqtz9K1eQCbuKMIqq71" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dbound] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft X-BeenThere: dbound@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DNS tree bounds List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2019 17:39:05 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --AEtbsKhutifNKLiqtz9K1eQCbuKMIqq71 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="oM1I0bItwNiWRkYM3KawuhdfRYVt2VfJa"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Samuel Weiler Cc: dbound@ietf.org Message-ID: <5846575b-f830-5316-daa5-e1fa750f4a74@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [dbound] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft References: <20190227172143.10303200F57CE0@ary.local> <1FFA1977E97DE99C390869DA@PSB> <49A2FC767B5A7146F39456B9@PSB> <87a520c1-194a-ffd7-b58f-fea6e549d090@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: --oM1I0bItwNiWRkYM3KawuhdfRYVt2VfJa Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------11AD2BC302E57D6926A14C97" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------11AD2BC302E57D6926A14C97 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Sam, On 14/03/2019 20:13, Samuel Weiler wrote: >=20 >> We added some text on that in -01, in the intro. See the top >> of page 3. Wasn't that clear enough? >=20 > No, it is not.=C2=A0 Those are pretty broad use cases.=C2=A0=20 Broad !=3D not-clear though:-) But fair enough. > I want to see them > more specifically defined.=C2=A0 e.g.=C2=A0 "correlate the ownership of= websites > in different languages" is still pretty broad.=C2=A0 WHO do you want to= do > the correlation?=C2=A0 (Which pieces of code?)=C2=A0 Is this for statis= tics and > analysis (only)=20 Yes, it is for that. But saying "only" seems wrong - if people are minded to publish this information then it can be used by anyone who finds it, however they want. For example, I might write some survey code that changes how it counts based on this. But I can't describe that code as it'd depend on what survey I'm actually doing. >- e.g. so the Alexa list reflects the aggregate of > correlated sites?=C2=A0 Or do you want client code doing something?=C2=A0= =20 See above. > Do you > want cookies shared?=20 No. I would prefer to stay away from that, for now at least. If/when RDBD RRs get published then browsers can think about whether they'd like to use that information is as far as I'd go there - since I do not make a browser, I don't see any point in trying to tell those who do that they ought use this now. If they decided they did want to use RDBD, then they could register a new rdbd-tag value if that was what they wanted - at least I think that'd be a sensible thing to do. And any text about the semantics of RDBD RRs using that rdbd-tag value can be written then, by whomever understands that particular use-case in full detail. > Credentials?=C2=A0=20 No. Same as above. We say this in the draft: " It is not a goal of this specification to provide a high-level of assurance that two domains are definitely related, nor to provide fine-grained detail about the kind of relationship that may exist between domains. " I'd be fine to strengthen that and saying something stronger if that helped, e.g. maybe to say that rdbd-tag=3D=3D0 RRs are not designed to be used for cookies or for cross-domain authentication. > I realize that this could touch many > parts of the stack. >=20 > Put another way, if you're right that: >=20 >> ... part of the reason DBOUND failed was an >> attempt to be all things to all parties. I think repeating >> such an attempt with RDBD would lead to the same failure. >=20 > Then the use case(s) needs to be very clear. Not sure I agree there. Use-case clarify or the lack thereof does not imply one is or is not trying to be all things to all parties. I do agree that clear text about use-cases is better of course. But so is terse text. 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AES256-SHA256 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by copdcmhout01.cable.comcast.com (SMTP Gateway) with SMTP id 1A.B6.43953.382329C5; Wed, 20 Mar 2019 06:30:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from COPDCEX19.cable.comcast.com (147.191.124.150) by COPDCEX20.cable.comcast.com (147.191.124.151) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Wed, 20 Mar 2019 06:31:00 -0600 Received: from COPDCEX19.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::3aea:a7ff:fe36:8380]) by COPDCEX19.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::3aea:a7ff:fe36:8380%19]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.003; Wed, 20 Mar 2019 06:31:00 -0600 From: "Brotman, Alexander" To: "dbound@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: RDBD 01 Comments Thread-Index: AdTfFlvTuXmSYIHhSdCCV6bGLR7WHw== Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 12:30:59 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [96.115.73.254] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Forward X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrMIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsWSUDRnsm6z0aQYgwnv2Cx2Xb7G7sDosWTJ T6YAxqgGRpuSjKLUxBKX1LTUvOJUOy4FDGCTlJqWX5TqmliUUxmUmpOaiF0ZSGVKak5mWWqR PlZj9LGak9DFlDFr0xn2gjPMFUdm7GRvYHzP1MXIySEhYCLRPucAcxcjF4eQwE4miUfzd7JA OIcYJXp7NjJBOCcZJRZ1fWYDaWETsJJ4+7+dGcQWEVCXeL/qHJgtLCApcXNXPztEXE5icd8i oDgHkK0ncWOOI0iYRUBVYvK9x2AlvAJeEj8mbgEbySggJvH91Bqwi5gFxCVuPZkPdZ2AxJI9 55khbFGJl4//sULYBhJbl+5jgbAVJX7Nu8IG0asjsWD3JyhbW2LZwtfMELsEJU7OfAJVLy5x +MgO1gmMorOQrJuFpH0WkvZZSNoXMLKsYuQ1NDPSMzQ10DMx0TM33MQIjPpF03TcdzB+OB97 iFGAg1GJh3eG8qQYIdbEsuLKXGAocjArifBGKAGFeFMSK6tSi/Lji0pzUosPMUpzsCiJ85p9 74gREkhPLEnNTk0tSC2CyTJxcEo1MAYqct7/OydU8Gf78XmcuvoJsnzTj3byp14NsJjBLPyb /WP/Q87N9p4eMWmFR07UqpquqlnWtfDrrp+5oloyFh1JAvdCq2yOn9Q3Ftj2VuKNYEiaSXPP 487a4EQx354PjYHn1xQKBAZGXLG7/CL1UZ/WvrNKvN+OS7Vmf6uz4nuw9dqjU+smKbEUZyQa ajEXFScCALcLU232AgAA Archived-At: Subject: [dbound] RDBD 01 Comments X-BeenThere: dbound@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DNS tree bounds List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 12:31:04 -0000 Hello folks, Stephen and I are still looking for additional comments on the newer revisi= on of RDBD [1]. We'd really like to work with everyone to move this forwar= d if possible. Additionally, he and I should both be in Prague next week i= f you'd like to have some in-person discussions. Thank you for your time [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brotman-rdbd-01 -- Alex Brotman Sr. Engineer, Anti-Abuse & Messaging Policy Comcast From nobody Wed Mar 20 11:03:48 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dbound@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dbound@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75689131084 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 2019 11:03:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=V/LAwfka; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=n3THNKts Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HSd1G4ugwt0P for ; Wed, 20 Mar 2019 11:03:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 34EA61310AB for ; Wed, 20 Mar 2019 11:03:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 51498 invoked from network); 20 Mar 2019 18:03:42 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=c928.5c92807e.k1903; bh=32lQM/AP2IilSsifU+snjazC5dwHLPoofhYwBPgnYas=; b=V/LAwfkaCkK7rVhBD8wNcZW4VzFxNv5ce5WeiBAdCbI8PcG5LwbND4O586BJ8O9jqflGSJO2xOP9RaWfibfQSuGIeP65ifMIRynD5YBHO3MN234wwzkM1+GUbNrG0xxbKi7lEm2YQ5hNNwJWunz1uxkM5WUwc7PPSCRXlYwCXeMMLIfxmWN7/hNg+IXLi796P9pkXcun4837vZyJRbKEFyW/OdR3RuP+/t7GIwNskYZ0JopiaJDGrbc2arHyIHyz DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=c928.5c92807e.k1903; bh=32lQM/AP2IilSsifU+snjazC5dwHLPoofhYwBPgnYas=; b=n3THNKtsNTsuIQxLBSiYUZoi+ZItfYGNxzvp1cP7kWRLmEeTisA37LiQExfsD4TW/0ibB8vQzeVDeUERGadGWWLd6xJXTH8ZOQ0Exxp+t5kvHKHXUtcLMNk6jemxWiWcBEvJU1wA4TgHJKPdM3Wyk9r+Tlh0lrSXchpTeczX+AwmJg3Tqh7wkUzmQWWH2uLrH0Mwb9SfZA1//0SKkqtub9bn1fCsVnLANhRm652/n9JgKyHaqpNEumgpuXi1EYD7 Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTP via TCP6; 20 Mar 2019 18:03:41 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 9885A20104BD45; Wed, 20 Mar 2019 14:03:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: 20 Mar 2019 14:03:41 -0400 Message-Id: <20190320180341.9885A20104BD45@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: dbound@ietf.org Cc: Alexander_Brotman@comcast.com In-Reply-To: Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dbound] RDBD 01 Comments X-BeenThere: dbound@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DNS tree bounds List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 18:03:47 -0000 In article you write: >Hello folks, > >Stephen and I are still looking for additional comments on the newer revision of RDBD [1]. We'd really >like to work with everyone to move this forward if possible. Additionally, he and I should both be in >Prague next week if you'd like to have some in-person discussions. > >Thank you for your time > >[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brotman-rdbd-01 Hm. I see that instead of DKIM-like signatures, now it's DNSSEC-like signatures. But I still have the same question: what advantage does all of this crypto stuff provide compared to a much simpler design where the two domains just have records that point at each other, like a cut down version of Andrew's SOPA? One difference is that you can't tell by looking at the primary/relating domain what its secondary/related domains are. I can't tell if that's a bug or a feature. From nobody Fri Mar 22 06:02:00 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dbound@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dbound@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D0A1126D00 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2019 06:01:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (4096-bit key) header.d=comcast.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hNZCVGNbrgP1 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2019 06:01:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from copdcmhout02.cable.comcast.com (copdcmhout02.cable.comcast.com [96.114.158.212]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED01A12787F for ; 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X-AuditID: 60729ed4-2e5ff700000044dc-0f-5c94dcc4d8ee Received: from COPDCEX21.cable.comcast.com (copdcmhoutvip.cable.comcast.com [96.114.156.147]) (using TLS with cipher AES256-SHA256 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by copdcmhout02.cable.comcast.com (SMTP Gateway) with SMTP id 72.4F.17628.4CCD49C5; Fri, 22 Mar 2019 07:01:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from COPDCEX19.cable.comcast.com (147.191.124.150) by COPDCEX21.cable.comcast.com (147.191.124.152) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Fri, 22 Mar 2019 07:01:55 -0600 Received: from COPDCEX19.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::3aea:a7ff:fe36:8380]) by COPDCEX19.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::3aea:a7ff:fe36:8380%19]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.003; Fri, 22 Mar 2019 07:01:54 -0600 From: "Brotman, Alexander" To: John Levine , "dbound@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [EXTERNAL] Re: [dbound] RDBD 01 Comments Thread-Index: AdTfFlvTuXmSYIHhSdCCV6bGLR7WHwAYy7GAAEyfGvA= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 13:01:54 +0000 Message-ID: <69eefc3fb8244b529ba9dcfea6c01489@COPDCEX19.cable.comcast.com> References: <20190320180341.9885A20104BD45@ary.qy> In-Reply-To: <20190320180341.9885A20104BD45@ary.qy> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [68.87.29.9] Content-Type: text/plain; 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s=2019; t=1553268133; bh=94Jlj/44N6tzupzrV73orJ58HM7LCnIr+tVkieuR+Xs=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Message-ID:Date:User-Agent: MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Cc:Content-Disposition: Content-Language:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:Date:From: In-Reply-To:Message-ID:MIME-Version:References:Reply-To: Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Sender:Subject:To: User-Agent; b=dby565kJaIQqCFH9y30rQkHlqEzCyDWQm1fTYFfdJYBDV9vDPACTvSYU3FnyK+T9a dTcZcd4FkFqn3Elgf9DymFBTObyzs5eCkMH26Jbpho5FStMBueAFCkDFmzcmuUvCUH HBoBfZ0jibQpHy5/jOMqWOFGuZ8XVaekP54YzNQM= To: dbound@ietf.org References: <20190320180341.9885A20104BD45@ary.qy> <69eefc3fb8244b529ba9dcfea6c01489@COPDCEX19.cable.comcast.com> From: Grant Taylor Organization: TNet Consulting Message-ID: <8b1e7fb0-1fad-bcae-780e-3fcd127e32f3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 09:22:11 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <69eefc3fb8244b529ba9dcfea6c01489@COPDCEX19.cable.comcast.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="------------ms080700060007070304010305" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dbound] [EXTERNAL] Re: RDBD 01 Comments X-BeenThere: dbound@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DNS tree bounds List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 15:22:17 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms080700060007070304010305 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/22/19 7:01 AM, Brotman, Alexander wrote: > The original intent was a providing a bit more of a hurdle to falsifyin= g=20 > responses. I need to re-read things, but I don't recall why anything needs to be=20 complex. Why can't DomainA.example publish a (simple) record stating=20 that it asserts a relationship with DomainB.example. Ideally, vice versa= =2E > I didn't think we could realistically rely on DNSSEC as a requirement=20 > (I'm imagining a situation where we have DNSSEC, and someone goes off=20 > to Route53 to host a domain where DNSSEC is not supported last I knew),= IMHO, more and more things significantly benefit from (if not actually=20 need) DNSSEC. As such, I think we should quite coddling things that=20 don't support DNSSEC. Especially when we are designing things for the=20 future. Design for what we want. At least unless there is a=20 significant reason to not use something like DNSSEC. Also, I do believe that if enough people want to use technologies that=20 need DNSSEC, they can exert enough market pressure to get Route53 (et=20 al.) to support DNSSEC. --=20 Grant. . . . unix || die --------------ms080700060007070304010305 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCC Cy4wggVAMIIEKKADAgECAhEA01fiRe1k2R6LEQCcImIMYTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADCBlzEL MAkGA1UEBhMCR0IxGzAZBgNVBAgTEkdyZWF0ZXIgTWFuY2hlc3RlcjEQMA4GA1UEBxMHU2Fs Zm9yZDEaMBgGA1UEChMRQ09NT0RPIENBIExpbWl0ZWQxPTA7BgNVBAMTNENPTU9ETyBSU0Eg Q2xpZW50IEF1dGhlbnRpY2F0aW9uIGFuZCBTZWN1cmUgRW1haWwgQ0EwHhcNMTgxMTE4MDAw MDAwWhcNMTkxMTE4MjM1OTU5WjArMSkwJwYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhpndGF5bG9yQHRuZXRjb25z dWx0aW5nLm5ldDCCASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEBANgOhvncDgc4KAlD 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h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=tmH4Q7mkff1g/+wows1LpLEJAsO2mLz+WJchIH+R8fOnJb5rKBr0eaz09mwSnb1uA M/mKpjAO561pGQ3KqcK9lzqR48uqt+6YeCTOU0NAMKc01hmbYyXs10Dep1VbN+xj3r hiLR4bGALcd5XfMxa7SWtbl8KA2gju7wJ0Xdbu+w= To: Grant Taylor , dbound@ietf.org References: <20190320180341.9885A20104BD45@ary.qy> <69eefc3fb8244b529ba9dcfea6c01489@COPDCEX19.cable.comcast.com> <8b1e7fb0-1fad-bcae-780e-3fcd127e32f3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; url= Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO 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<8b1e7fb0-1fad-bcae-780e-3fcd127e32f3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="vOaNqmoniDfCXY4QI3lUHW797IxW7KRAO" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dbound] [EXTERNAL] Re: RDBD 01 Comments X-BeenThere: dbound@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DNS tree bounds List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 15:29:48 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --vOaNqmoniDfCXY4QI3lUHW797IxW7KRAO Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="UHsoHLDxbucMxP2vXSLpCjQMPuh0WoPyv"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Grant Taylor , dbound@ietf.org Message-ID: <61663639-9197-9f20-7786-3f1c1f5a7e00@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [dbound] [EXTERNAL] Re: RDBD 01 Comments References: <20190320180341.9885A20104BD45@ary.qy> <69eefc3fb8244b529ba9dcfea6c01489@COPDCEX19.cable.comcast.com> <8b1e7fb0-1fad-bcae-780e-3fcd127e32f3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> In-Reply-To: <8b1e7fb0-1fad-bcae-780e-3fcd127e32f3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> --UHsoHLDxbucMxP2vXSLpCjQMPuh0WoPyv Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------B487B8AD9E7CDD76251B1DC0" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B487B8AD9E7CDD76251B1DC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 22/03/2019 15:22, Grant Taylor wrote: > On 3/22/19 7:01 AM, Brotman, Alexander wrote: >> The original intent was a providing a bit more of a hurdle to >> falsifying responses. >=20 > I need to re-read things, but I don't recall why anything needs to be > complex.=C2=A0 Why can't DomainA.example publish a (simple) record stat= ing > that it asserts a relationship with DomainB.example.=C2=A0 Ideally, vic= e versa. Just a clarification: In this version, they can. The signature is optional in the -01 version. (I may have mucked up how to describe that for a new RRTYPE of course;-) Cheers, S. >=20 >> I didn't think we could realistically rely on DNSSEC as a requirement >> (I'm imagining a situation where we have DNSSEC, and someone goes off >> to Route53 to host a domain where DNSSEC is not supported last I knew)= , >=20 > IMHO, more and more things significantly benefit from (if not actually > need) DNSSEC.=C2=A0 As such, I think we should quite coddling things th= at > don't support DNSSEC.=C2=A0 Especially when we are designing things for= the > future.=C2=A0 Design for what we want.=C2=A0 At least unless there is a= > significant reason to not use something like DNSSEC. >=20 > Also, I do believe that if enough people want to use technologies that > need DNSSEC, they can exert enough market pressure to get Route53 (et > al.) to support DNSSEC. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > dbound mailing list > dbound@ietf.org > 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autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=GS4UYObk; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=m8/Een+/ Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7gYZWY6mKMoA for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2019 08:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A283F130FF4 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2019 08:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 53430 invoked from network); 22 Mar 2019 15:35:33 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=d0b4.5c9500c5.k1903; bh=RXc8imgmTC56g5WJhBVViFnzjekL8wDMb4GNzAdMDXM=; 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Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" To: "Brotman, Alexander" Cc: "dbound@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <69eefc3fb8244b529ba9dcfea6c01489@COPDCEX19.cable.comcast.com> References: <20190320180341.9885A20104BD45@ary.qy> <69eefc3fb8244b529ba9dcfea6c01489@COPDCEX19.cable.comcast.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21 (OSX 202 2017-01-01) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dbound] [EXTERNAL] Re: RDBD 01 Comments X-BeenThere: dbound@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DNS tree bounds List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 15:35:40 -0000 > The original intent was a providing a bit more of a hurdle to falsifying > responses. I didn't think we could realistically rely on DNSSEC as a > requirement (I'm imagining a situation where we have DNSSEC, and someone > goes off to Route53 to host a domain where DNSSEC is not supported last > I knew), so was hoping this would provide a bit more of a loose > assurance that this relationship is intentional. I still don't get it. If you're the primary and you have DNSSEC, you can with great security publish pointers to all of the secondaries, no extra crypto required. If you're a primary and you don't have DNSSEC, a bad guy can with some effort fake a key record and you lose anyway. Faking a primary->secondary pointer or faking a key record are equally hard or easy. Perhaps it would be helpful to make a chart for situations where the primary or secondary are and aren't signed, and are and aren't attacked and see which (if any) boxes have interesting different outcomes. R's, John >> -----Original Message----- >> From: John Levine >> Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2019 2:04 PM >> To: dbound@ietf.org >> Cc: Brotman, Alexander >> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [dbound] RDBD 01 Comments >> >> In article >> you >> write: >>> Hello folks, >>> >>> Stephen and I are still looking for additional comments on the newer >>> revision of RDBD [1]. We'd really like to work with everyone to move >>> this forward if possible. Additionally, he and I should both be in Prague next >> week if you'd like to have some in-person discussions. >>> >>> Thank you for your time >>> >>> [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brotman-rdbd-01 >> >> Hm. I see that instead of DKIM-like signatures, now it's DNSSEC-like >> signatures. >> >> But I still have the same question: what advantage does all of this crypto stuff >> provide compared to a much simpler design where the two domains just >> have records that point at each other, like a cut down version of Andrew's >> SOPA? >> >> One difference is that you can't tell by looking at the primary/relating domain >> what its secondary/related domains are. I can't tell if that's a bug or a >> feature. > Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From nobody Fri Mar 29 10:06:34 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dbound@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dbound@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5665A12025D for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2019 10:06:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=neutral reason="invalid (unsupported algorithm ed25519-sha256)" header.d=andreasschulze.de header.b=ZkA5CVAE; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=andreasschulze.de header.b=w3dudAi3 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3l1x_-2qhiCR for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2019 10:06:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta.somaf.de (mta.somaf.de [IPv6:2001:470:77b3:103::25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5EC5C120254 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2019 10:06:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=ed25519-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=andreasschulze.de; i=@andreasschulze.de; q=dns/txt; s=ed25519; t=1553879187; h=to : from : subject : message-id : date : mime-version : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : from; bh=SqKIUGsTj+aOyoOU9fmvX8FfRk4bYCyuO0pbH90yUWQ=; b=ZkA5CVAErehD7dYXbwN2KEs3hhu92eVIQkpaXwfkUj3RPIf5r3aqVWTU a6tdWXkyRtNwjwzZQuFjZT2wJ52TBA== To: dbound@ietf.org DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=andreasschulze.de; s=201903-A9C5ADDF; t=1553879187; x=1558879187; bh=SqKIUGsTj+aOyoOU9fmvX8FfRk4bYCyuO0pbH90yUWQ=; h=To:From:Subject:Message-ID:Date:Content-Type:from:reply-to: subject:date:to:cc:content-type:message-id; b=w3dudAi3K/pnmLTMgUMEf1IeckS+ilMdAS4ntx87bxW6/kohSOHGwOjS+9wr1iMgy AFh1RMiUEomErPxo0FLFL25i+x/+J/pgfSh8uZax5ya9cRgOheI5yvdmyNaX84A9/D CzCJew+GEh1eR3pKtg3am1ZKCrN7qYYEI3sFLofvqnOEKJEPBg3hZKYpYEj9gjIOJ+ VjHkntaVRpg9/8H1oynUzMWcOr09v0Ovk/Gv6jrFgfpkD8RP3t5gX7mz+aMSKtlf4e +d7BqRC7JodVx8uoqfJjrGNh06N6JGEajsv01dnYQOg29S3ZKQq5nUa3Q9EouDxr86 JA9ft4qK9FxqQ== From: "A. Schulze" Message-ID: Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 18:06:35 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [dbound] draft-brotman-rdbd X-BeenThere: dbound@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DNS tree bounds List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 17:06:33 -0000 Hello, I read the draft. In general I like a possibility to express relationships. As noted by Warren at the mic, there is also a desire to express "no relation" explicitly. som thoughts/questions: 1. > We include an optional digital signature mechanism... why optional? without any signature wouldn't it possible to any third party to express any relationship? > RDBD is intended to demonstrate a relationship between registered domains, not individual hostnames. where is the border? May publicsufficlist help defining them? 2.1 / 2.2 as zone apex is likely to be overloaded today, defining something like _drbd.example covering RDBDKEY and RDBD data comes in mind. editorial: 1, mention DKIM like mechanisms, but 2.1 introduce to me unexpected "The RDBDKEY RR uses the same registries as DNSKEY for its fields." .. confusing > The trailing "." representing the DNS root MUST NOT be included in the to-be-signed data, > so a relating-domain value above might be "example.com" but "example.com." what's the reason for not making the root explicit? the current concept I understand as every random domain can express itself as related domain to a relating domain. That allow enumeration via passive DNS technics for example without putting any effort in validating signatures. I understand the desire to allow such enumeration but a more privacy friendly version [1],[2] is welcome, too And, yes, DNSSEC shouldn't be optional. Re-using existing DNSKEYs may make the signature/validation stuff easier. Andreas [1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dbound/cPUM4AKeowvUPQY3wclWQpAKgEE [2] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dbound/tXghAjUAiezkJLA0FlO0Sy__lrQ From nobody Sun Mar 31 15:29:43 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dbound@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dbound@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02177120013 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 15:29:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 47TAzqC3CAh9 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 15:29:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C40341201E4 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 15:29:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 77627 invoked from network); 31 Mar 2019 22:29:37 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=12f39.5ca13f51.k1903; bh=iUvVbPs8NMAIUKClx2GXJYPFhEwH+ewG1WOPD4TuAjo=; b=bQ2gYrWawoPQ6NhUz1GX2OhTpLrkOKMRVjWaroFgaGrjLb2I2gR+Y9X6qKyKlRTpStsbl7Ir9SZOILsOoK7QDiYkA3v3siuIsy/0PdBzjHlJbhOhTcloGs1o+h/7uodfuowo11SVDrh5umOnnOW5s2Gz7nKuffYDSVklBKm6VHIO4GXUoVILzSPkanIz+jWSJc83DwjKPUkk4azTrF032rVQogqrsPhtiio0i/9jauvcTidEa/2h9n6bpyHwBI6w Received: from localhost ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 31 Mar 2019 22:29:37 -0000 Date: 31 Mar 2019 18:29:36 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R. Levine" To: "A. Schulze" Cc: dbound@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Alpine 2.21 (OSX 202 2017-01-01) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dbound] draft-brotman-rdbd X-BeenThere: dbound@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DNS tree bounds List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2019 22:29:41 -0000 > 1. >> We include an optional digital signature mechanism... > why optional? without any signature wouldn't it possible to any third party to express any relationship? Don't really understand this question, but see my prior messages about the threat model. I have yet to understand what problem the signatures solve, that couldn't be addressed more simply by putting records at the relating and related domains that point at each other. >> RDBD is intended to demonstrate a relationship between registered domains, not individual hostnames. > > where is the border? May publicsufficlist help defining them? Presumably one would use the PSL to find the appropriate places to look. > 2.1 / 2.2 > as zone apex is likely to be overloaded today, defining something like _drbd.example covering RDBDKEY and RDBD data comes in mind. Since the records have new rrtypes, I don't understand what you mean by "overloaded". Underscore prefixes are mostly for TXT records and these are not TXT records. Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From nobody Sun Mar 31 15:57:19 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dbound@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dbound@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1367C12020A for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 15:57:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xb8w5Of513t5 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 15:57:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A7AE5120021 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 15:57:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id C63AFBF9B; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 23:57:10 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zx99XvxJfYAV; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 23:57:08 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.138] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5B3C0BF73; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 23:57:08 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1554073028; bh=u6AXbe7ee1PH32+Q1AVHfmBrG3ef3PGVxIOfW22ZYpQ=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=G+6LD0nP+9FPvhNmBk6lVS81WSraWLKBPWOaYbHYePEW1PwRMYwtxsQJsxkZWKAj9 UnyelngQfngSDxTi/w+C/EwquNt9ClXb8RgJVSiMFcm0z/lMCs1v7kHxtJlsSssBzh QOsPlK14vk7JbDqaawkMVw011GbcWfqfbumxwcA4= To: "A. Schulze" , dbound@ietf.org References: From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; url= Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: <7d34857c-a99b-389a-90e5-2e4fe6f4e736@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2019 23:57:06 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="EvwSWpGz1UpjD3oRtka5PxJhQadYVv33c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dbound] draft-brotman-rdbd X-BeenThere: dbound@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DNS tree bounds List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2019 22:57:17 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --EvwSWpGz1UpjD3oRtka5PxJhQadYVv33c Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="uHirddYJaZdlFVBNwP70jBxuZYXTpsxh9"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "A. Schulze" , dbound@ietf.org Message-ID: <7d34857c-a99b-389a-90e5-2e4fe6f4e736@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [dbound] draft-brotman-rdbd References: In-Reply-To: --uHirddYJaZdlFVBNwP70jBxuZYXTpsxh9 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------30916CAE39A413FE70A5BF15" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------30916CAE39A413FE70A5BF15 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Andreas, Thanks for taking a read. Response below On 29/03/2019 17:06, A. Schulze wrote: > Hello, >=20 > I read the draft. In general I like a possibility to express relationsh= ips. > As noted by Warren at the mic, there is also a desire to express "no re= lation" explicitly. Yep. Not sure I understand the cardinality issues with that, but seems like a reasonable request. Will try figure it out before we shoot out a -02. >=20 > som thoughts/questions: > 1. >> We include an optional digital signature mechanism... > why optional? without any signature wouldn't it possible to any third p= arty to express any relationship? Optional for simplicity of deployment. >=20 >> RDBD is intended to demonstrate a relationship between registered doma= ins, not individual hostnames. >=20 > where is the border? May publicsufficlist help defining them? TBH, I'm pretty sure I don't understand this issue well enough myself;-) =46rom Alex's POV, he's interested in (mail) domains and not hosts, and that's I think why he added that. From my POV, I take 'em all as names, so don't feel strongly, other than that I don't want rdbd to be seen as useless unless it replaces the PSL (it won't). >=20 > 2.1 / 2.2 > as zone apex is likely to be overloaded today, defining something like = _drbd.example covering RDBDKEY and RDBD data comes in mind. I agree with John L's answer here. If he's wrong that a new RRTYPE makes this a non-issue, I'd be happy to learn why that's the case. >=20 > editorial: > 1, mention DKIM like mechanisms, but 2.1 introduce to me unexpected "Th= e RDBDKEY RR uses the same registries as DNSKEY for its fields." > ... confusing Ack. Will fix. >=20 >=20 >> The trailing "." representing the DNS root MUST NOT be included in the= to-be-signed data, >> so a relating-domain value above might be "example.com" but "example.c= om." > what's the reason for not making the root explicit? I figured it'd be more likely that inclusion of the "." in signed-data would lead to errors. But I wouldn't sweat it, as I'm pretty sure the input to signing would be likely to change as this proceeds, so we can figure it out later. >=20 > the current concept I understand as every random domain can express its= elf as related domain to a relating domain. > That allow enumeration via passive DNS technics for example without put= ting any effort in validating signatures. I'll ponder whether we can make improvements there somehow. In a chat with someone (sorry, forget whom) in Prague they made the suggestion to publish a hash of the related name, at least for cases where one is disavowing a relationship... that may be a good plan, but I at least need to ponder it more. > I understand the desire to allow such enumeration but a more privacy fr= iendly version [1],[2] is welcome, too > And, yes, DNSSEC shouldn't be optional. Re-using existing DNSKEYs may m= ake the signature/validation stuff easier. I'm afraid I don't agree that DNSSEC can be a requirement here. RDBD by itself is not sufficiently compelling to cause a DNSSEC deployment. And DNSSEC is just not sufficiently deployed to make it a requirement. Cheers, S. >=20 > Andreas >=20 > [1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dbound/cPUM4AKeowvUPQY3wclWQp= AKgEE > [2] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dbound/tXghAjUAiezkJLA0FlO0Sy= __lrQ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > dbound mailing list > dbound@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dbound >=20 --------------30916CAE39A413FE70A5BF15 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 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amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Rj7rzKXgitPn for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 16:00:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 399DF120021 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 16:00:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4889BF73; Mon, 1 Apr 2019 00:00:57 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Uu-dUwgO-RCy; Mon, 1 Apr 2019 00:00:55 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.138] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6BCCDBF6F; Mon, 1 Apr 2019 00:00:55 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1554073255; bh=0KofDPaUWGotVXJSB/GJ+Ev4ZJhulBKeKsagGbraYIk=; h=To:Cc:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=htHzSChNajpajEWLCkw8ueNfLoqreN2vry2/SIBP170wp6JqvDevt7mkvEq2Dr/be WVPcrrmQpxX1n8Ci/Oks5Q5vTeB5r0GGZ4RXeE02cEcV0CKVuJ9izO0pTvfNv0M+T3 PEu5oOBgFZg5upajIY0qFxm7J+dRw/KsvhqDg19o= To: "John R. Levine" , "A. Schulze" Cc: dbound@ietf.org References: From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; url= Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: <26d0eebb-1086-2f2c-056a-ba10dc9e6ac9@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 00:00:54 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="URTAn8oyAy3DAiSmHBmh6sK4ZOLXBA8Ft" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dbound] draft-brotman-rdbd X-BeenThere: dbound@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DNS tree bounds List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2019 23:01:01 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --URTAn8oyAy3DAiSmHBmh6sK4ZOLXBA8Ft Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="AMkEB2meRYJG5My6XRrREgEfMH4sRydx4"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "John R. Levine" , "A. Schulze" Cc: dbound@ietf.org Message-ID: <26d0eebb-1086-2f2c-056a-ba10dc9e6ac9@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [dbound] draft-brotman-rdbd References: In-Reply-To: --AMkEB2meRYJG5My6XRrREgEfMH4sRydx4 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------786ABADD431F529250C3F2B4" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------786ABADD431F529250C3F2B4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi John, On 31/03/2019 23:29, John R. Levine wrote: >> 1. >>> We include an optional digital signature mechanism... >> why optional? without any signature wouldn't it possible to any third >> party to express any relationship? >=20 > Don't really understand this question, but see my prior messages about > the threat model.=C2=A0 I have yet to understand what problem the signa= tures > solve, that couldn't be addressed more simply by putting records at the= > relating and related domains that point at each other. Fair enough. I've also yet to understand what's not clear about that, but happy to try again, using a permutation of earlier words:-) If the public key is available with integrity (either via DNSSEC for the relating domain or via caching) then signatures add some evidence that the relationship is real. Cheers, S. PS: I figure I agree with the rest you wrote below. >>> RDBD is intended to demonstrate a relationship between registered >>> domains, not individual hostnames. >> >> where is the border? May publicsufficlist help defining them? >=20 > Presumably one would use the PSL to find the appropriate places to look= =2E >=20 >> 2.1 / 2.2 >> as zone apex is likely to be overloaded today, defining something like= >> _drbd.example covering RDBDKEY and RDBD data comes in mind. >=20 > Since the records have new rrtypes, I don't understand what you mean by= > "overloaded".=C2=A0 Underscore prefixes are mostly for TXT records and = these > are not TXT records. >=20 > Regards, > John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for > Dummies", > Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.= ly >=20 > _______________________________________________ > dbound mailing list > dbound@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dbound >=20 --------------786ABADD431F529250C3F2B4 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; 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--------------786ABADD431F529250C3F2B4-- --AMkEB2meRYJG5My6XRrREgEfMH4sRydx4-- --URTAn8oyAy3DAiSmHBmh6sK4ZOLXBA8Ft Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAlyhRqYACgkQWrL68XsX K+rq7g/+J4CaeBc9j9+BjgGZ41WjYs9hFFdm5IkTDqzd3k/8J3RxIpvBlXPr0SPr wH1veqOT/5ZrvNy5a4T8mqYAOyMMOnn8T1tVVi2+HN5HRKryw0rj3djB+fJwuPL5 eKc4INMH8pa5nrHrOB9xFEWikt5CJLH6S+GaV9cV3gIx9dklLWvUlEGxxiZN8a2n 8ZR3+Ctz/iqtYiPpZgEE2iO5bCNpfLhO+anh6DNnV+/Icz6+D5sEW+KKLunF1cgY Vshg5ehXMmI0595YMolThyTf1rivjX320nlECr+GMU9JmDONaQXAw99dOOBiud0x cepCiyc1vLUffLKEPVCIxSXz3kgpIDh1znL0dQoeyvGIIVeyD9rcwFFGd8OJtgp3 QzbH49O5C/KHXcC4/Gp3TdqIGcgiuHZfMsUdXa9DOCaGQj4DZXhYtIC5Ps5gI5W1 FkSlri3fvw4lYiuLxa/nLY+8hf7TgaV7RdeEVnt3JIXnM2UbIUeQ3yHOARtwWXIl jpjyt2Dc2NcT87lO1VLhaiONyBPPZ89M3Zn/ViLmV5pvQ6h5/wfKZ8In6uiV3AHJ 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18:01:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D69C2120013 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 18:01:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 22973 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2019 01:01:45 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=59bb.5ca162f9.k1903; bh=4b5rl8R1KOSRqUZhaCzX5O0CL3I9iuGugyj+tWcdS/A=; b=ifW4TUzaxpWYG9sxZPBZirbrvwjJhwBUALyyZm8qSDkXY9blAc4feVN9bIvtXMF3pZTBbcpJuCmyHiw5XkwZDXBjLAr39eZwTXJzAzg6Sj/kQlRZkCL4fq+AXiYL/63/TBPP4yUaQ6mKbl1OZd7zxMhgac/wULVoIoj2UbFQL5JvhogkyW3mx5F10QJxGyr1W/OvYa8momjEgaTjXSV1FY9Icsl+lplbN4rNid9CHUIwV3Xq0WA8pwd3YoPJ98PL Received: from localhost ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 01 Apr 2019 01:01:44 -0000 Date: 31 Mar 2019 21:01:44 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R. Levine" To: "Stephen Farrell" Cc: "A. Schulze" , dbound@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <26d0eebb-1086-2f2c-056a-ba10dc9e6ac9@cs.tcd.ie> References: <26d0eebb-1086-2f2c-056a-ba10dc9e6ac9@cs.tcd.ie> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21 (OSX 202 2017-01-01) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dbound] draft-brotman-rdbd X-BeenThere: dbound@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DNS tree bounds List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2019 01:01:52 -0000 > If the public key is available with integrity (either via DNSSEC for > the relating domain or via caching) then signatures add some evidence > that the relationship is real. But if I publish a DNSSEC signed record that says "this other domain is related to me" you get exactly the same level of assurance. What does the extra signature provide that DNSSEC doesn't? Conversely, if it's not DNSSEC signed, publishing a fake "this other domain" record is exactly as hard as publishing a fake public key record. R's, John From nobody Sun Mar 31 18:38:01 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dbound@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dbound@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97857120045 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 18:37:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GIy0j223Zfsb for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 18:37:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E5C6120013 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 18:37:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id B672EBF73; Mon, 1 Apr 2019 02:37:52 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E2NymKzAfCPR; Mon, 1 Apr 2019 02:37:48 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.138] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D6C6DBF6F; Mon, 1 Apr 2019 02:37:47 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1554082668; bh=kAAUcMqm9Fx61m6IsGXT4kCd0AoihMKbb0R0c9y8iE8=; h=To:Cc:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=X5gjiJ7BzgTV/P2YRcegudN5mbbZfi0egUgWz2qh34QdNi9TrMUfK9MSxN9XJXsc/ UVbZYAv9XqJvznVPFJXTES4mnh+4duRFWe/qb/9iz0eSsg6hRSIw+sFo6O7xsWaLuO ySN6Icm/ZqDe+oI0d1MozWU4B6lOMEpWS1IvH1js= To: "John R. Levine" Cc: dbound@ietf.org, "A. Schulze" References: <26d0eebb-1086-2f2c-056a-ba10dc9e6ac9@cs.tcd.ie> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; url= Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 02:37:46 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="GhVsrN3SCWqJoz6gnNcpfUh8spAzXL6qz" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dbound] draft-brotman-rdbd X-BeenThere: dbound@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DNS tree bounds List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2019 01:38:00 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --GhVsrN3SCWqJoz6gnNcpfUh8spAzXL6qz Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="XsIRhTiwlxrPOebecXLfra0dNLKTBQ1pt"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "John R. Levine" Cc: dbound@ietf.org, "A. Schulze" Message-ID: Subject: Re: [dbound] draft-brotman-rdbd References: <26d0eebb-1086-2f2c-056a-ba10dc9e6ac9@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: --XsIRhTiwlxrPOebecXLfra0dNLKTBQ1pt Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------B74E9E1C26E71B051E6A16CF" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B74E9E1C26E71B051E6A16CF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John, On 01/04/2019 02:01, John R. Levine wrote: >> If the public key is available with integrity (either via DNSSEC >> for the relating domain or via caching) then signatures add some >> evidence that the relationship is real. >=20 > But if I publish a DNSSEC signed record that says "this other domain > is related to me" you get exactly the same level of assurance. Disagree. Your "I" there is ambiguous, and I (meaning me, personally:-) have explained before how that "exactly the same" is incorrect. (See text marked "*" below for why.) >=20 > What does the extra signature provide that DNSSEC doesn't? Sigh. I really have explained this. If email is not sufficient to get that over, then perhaps we can wait 'till we're in the same room again? I honestly have no clue how you don't understand this. I could totally accept that you do understand it, but consider it wrong, (in which case I'd only consider you mistaken,:-) But given your and my history with e.g. DKIM, I really am extremely surprised that you do not appear to understand what I'm tying to explain. But, see the text marked "*" for why. > Conversely, if it's not DNSSEC signed, publishing a fake "this other > domain" record is exactly as hard as publishing a fake public key > record. "*": For the 3rd or 4th time, and with feeling: Publishing is not the same as having a relying-party treat a signature differently. As you'll no doubt have noted, I did say "with integrity" above, which is more than just "publishing." That kind of integrity for a public key can be provided via caching, or DNSSEC. Once one has that, then signatures are not at all the same as if one were to have only freshly read the public key from the DNS. For example, if a relying-party has seen the same public key used for a relating domain N times or for N years, and sees that public key used again, then that relying-party can treat that differently, compared to a public key just seen now, without any DNSSEC. DNSSEC, if deployed for the relating domain (not the related domain), can provide some similar level of assurance about the public key. That trust-model for signatures is entirely as was done for DKIM. I believe you do understand that trust-model for keys. If not, I would be surprised but happy to explain yet again. I do hope that is finally clear but suspect it'll not prove to be. (Whilst remaining surprised that this could be a surprise to you.) And I'll nonetheless be happy to try explain for a 5th or 6th time;-) Cheers, S. >=20 > R's, John >=20 > _______________________________________________ dbound mailing list=20 > dbound@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dbound >=20 --------------B74E9E1C26E71B051E6A16CF Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV 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X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rKmjOx1cArrX for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 19:00:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7DB5B1200EC for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 19:00:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 41330 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2019 02:00:11 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=a16e.5ca170ab.k1903; bh=Z/ZqA4ACUW31S+AX1tGED54cz9dS1f6v9GMtbOS6o5Q=; b=rnhLcSM8odPxbKqcv1RVEZyI+gUICRHb4gO7Tp3hZU67GOBWgr14gWhMa8aThsRWoXmzj8LDR3xc4duU9En5W226yDeDTIkCzPUHAZsF7aD4AP/DRhtHmtYJxRbGfGlpaTlIze7oWC5Ph5daFd4EGZvBvN3AHpIbHMSWdy1NtJbdnYkHRRpdx4bttztnGjMWNW6jT6a1s/jzTEn2HImavrb9xSAiiCHpERKy1bGKX2ExoJOa+5Lv30qX3EkHUE7Q Received: from localhost ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 01 Apr 2019 02:00:10 -0000 Date: 31 Mar 2019 22:00:10 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R. Levine" To: "Stephen Farrell" Cc: dbound@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <26d0eebb-1086-2f2c-056a-ba10dc9e6ac9@cs.tcd.ie> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21 (OSX 202 2017-01-01) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dbound] draft-brotman-rdbd X-BeenThere: dbound@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DNS tree bounds List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2019 02:00:14 -0000 On Mon, 1 Apr 2019, Stephen Farrell wrote: > For example, if a relying-party has seen the same public key used for a > relating domain N times or for N years, and sees that public key used > again, then that relying-party can treat that differently, compared to a > public key just seen now, without any DNSSEC. ... > That trust-model for signatures is entirely as was done for DKIM. Well, there's the problem -- this is completely different from the trust model for DKIM. For one thing, DKIM associates a key in the DNS with signatures in messages. The DKIM key is public but the message isn't. In this design, both ends are in the DNS and both are public. More to the point, although I realize that a lot of DKIM signers never rotate their keys, that is universally agreed to be bad practice. I rotate my DKIM keys every month, so you'll never see a key record of mine for more than about seven weeks (a month plus some slop at each end.) I would be pretty surprised if anyone considered a DKIM key record more credible because it had been around for a long time. Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From nobody Sun Mar 31 19:04:58 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dbound@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dbound@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4AFE1201F0 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 19:04:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KlDyGGxN5Dax for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 19:04:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9854712004F for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 19:04:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BB35BF8E; Mon, 1 Apr 2019 03:04:50 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eLjZ26Q4rXch; Mon, 1 Apr 2019 03:04:46 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.138] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D975DBF6F; Mon, 1 Apr 2019 03:04:45 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1554084286; bh=3I07vzK71gxFnGJNe3jXZTKkx6XaAhiuX+5z6InCs68=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=iCE4hU1a5s8rADNs6c9tFp9kpSptJmEC7FJGlTBKjrztS2Y1l+NTRirPoy7qtEcEQ esRvXovyXDbCjE7dtSpOugh7bIK0Tl9kX7xqWPEcCnT8oiN4IOeJfS7KtI4l2yUPHG sW5weSJQTWgS8P8E7phdP+lSREY0L/CI0+Ddr3gQ= To: "John R. Levine" Cc: dbound@ietf.org References: <26d0eebb-1086-2f2c-056a-ba10dc9e6ac9@cs.tcd.ie> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; url= Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: <6b13a06f-ece2-d1c5-83b9-cfa0a30914f3@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 03:04:44 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Wrzltes5FGgmPYAkfeHs0r02xwjHqyxl5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dbound] draft-brotman-rdbd X-BeenThere: dbound@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DNS tree bounds List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2019 02:04:56 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --Wrzltes5FGgmPYAkfeHs0r02xwjHqyxl5 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="N5GsHUbsOKtgmHWeE7h8nn4T0MBk7PX1T"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "John R. Levine" Cc: dbound@ietf.org Message-ID: <6b13a06f-ece2-d1c5-83b9-cfa0a30914f3@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [dbound] draft-brotman-rdbd References: <26d0eebb-1086-2f2c-056a-ba10dc9e6ac9@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: --N5GsHUbsOKtgmHWeE7h8nn4T0MBk7PX1T Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------D5D44EE9AE9457C58414D33B" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D5D44EE9AE9457C58414D33B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 01/04/2019 03:00, John R. Levine wrote: > On Mon, 1 Apr 2019, Stephen Farrell wrote: >=20 >> For example, if a relying-party has seen the same public key used for >> a relating domain N times or for N years, and sees that public key >> used again, then that relying-party can treat that differently, >> compared to a public key just seen now, without any DNSSEC. ... >=20 >> That trust-model for signatures is entirely as was done for DKIM. >=20 > Well, there's the problem -- this is completely different from the trus= t > model for DKIM. We disagree there. A public key publishe in the DNS, with potential (though unlikely) assurance via DNSSEC, is the same model for key management of public keys. If you do see a difference, the I'd be very happy to understand what difference you see. >=20 > For one thing, DKIM associates a key in the DNS with signatures in > messages.=C2=A0 The DKIM key is public but the message isn't.=C2=A0 In = this > design, both ends are in the DNS and both are public. That makes no difference here that I can see. How does an RDBD signature become worse because the signature bits are public? > More to the point, although I realize that a lot of DKIM signers never > rotate their keys, that is universally agreed to be bad practice.=C2=A0= I > rotate my DKIM keys every month, so you'll never see a key record of > mine for more than about seven weeks (a month plus some slop at each > end.)=C2=A0 I would be pretty surprised if anyone considered a DKIM key= > record more credible because it had been around for a long time. Again, that makes no difference. If a key has integrity (for a relying-party), it does not matter how new nor old a key that is. What aspect of key rotation do you think is relevant here? Cheers, S. >=20 > Regards, > John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for > Dummies", > Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.= ly >=20 > _______________________________________________ > dbound mailing list > dbound@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dbound >=20 --------------D5D44EE9AE9457C58414D33B Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 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amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c1SpcW5qDZj9 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 19:10:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 41A8D12002E for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 19:10:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 44380 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2019 02:10:29 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=ad56.5ca17315.k1903; bh=9qCEtEWbMUt1lo3E1qjAmpdUGvuZ2/a96rM2VHe3468=; b=IHw++s5y93ljlR3W5Osn/5MRLHcD1Ow+fWJ902vlTU99ftwJPpu5yGM18AgP8eE5BXhzSqy0qNPlq+Zg4BXHvEs6gVmQChZwcaeoiKqqKNcUE49Lmbb4NReVCMgZoVkGZQvw/Jy/2LCiZA7+0iQ9iwbeTro7YVbPtNac73XKa3AtLQTyHASbFW0Q0zbbHzyAMukypoWz8o3+MrHw027kGHwzBiNIM7vv0AkNef6OzqLLq32vr5xaN+iHnZmepaMn Received: from localhost ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 01 Apr 2019 02:10:28 -0000 Date: 31 Mar 2019 22:10:28 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R. Levine" To: "Stephen Farrell" Cc: dbound@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <6b13a06f-ece2-d1c5-83b9-cfa0a30914f3@cs.tcd.ie> References: <26d0eebb-1086-2f2c-056a-ba10dc9e6ac9@cs.tcd.ie> <6b13a06f-ece2-d1c5-83b9-cfa0a30914f3@cs.tcd.ie> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21 (OSX 202 2017-01-01) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dbound] draft-brotman-rdbd X-BeenThere: dbound@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DNS tree bounds List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2019 02:10:33 -0000 >>> For example, if a relying-party has seen the same public key used for >>> a relating domain N times or for N years, and sees that public key >>> used again, then that relying-party can treat that differently, >>> compared to a public key just seen now, without any DNSSEC. ... > Again, that makes no difference. If a key has integrity (for a > relying-party), it does not matter how new nor old a key that is. Um, someone sending mail from your address just said a few minutes ago that an older key is more credible. > What aspect of key rotation do you think is relevant here? Hey, you're the one who said "N years". Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From nobody Sun Mar 31 19:14:25 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dbound@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dbound@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE1D312002E for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 19:14:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M2q6BVodTByW for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 19:14:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1D498120004 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 19:14:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 45420 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2019 02:14:20 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:content-id:user-agent; s=b168.5ca173fc.k1903; bh=aHHqsVYUycAj8sxishbagiEJ5+mF/uHJc3dxp/8Mnc8=; b=GAvERX1SjEXYrtR1GfMULTr4N4Enk4S9PkMPwafPBsXjJLKFAzRd73soqAOQCB0f8QOdVB6YBNtv3B08rGuvKE+TAw25SBPfjbVQyzrhTNI0rZhXpOIq6KNJ2Evezq2Ckw7tKl2u838xzE3z4n2zQ7QX2QI6bKBLKFxXLZuG9eQPnMqgwwKNZQYu2g0un2YLxnlLgdXsJTiQLew/PUVgNyOdTtsnE9K+eDlrsuYZ9QuZODTDVFPyYq6KvMx5cZwl Received: from localhost ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 01 Apr 2019 02:14:19 -0000 Date: 31 Mar 2019 22:14:19 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R. Levine" To: "Stephen Farrell" Cc: dbound@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <6b13a06f-ece2-d1c5-83b9-cfa0a30914f3@cs.tcd.ie> References: <26d0eebb-1086-2f2c-056a-ba10dc9e6ac9@cs.tcd.ie> <6b13a06f-ece2-d1c5-83b9-cfa0a30914f3@cs.tcd.ie> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21 (OSX 202 2017-01-01) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0-1086578356-1554084814=:10050" Content-ID: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dbound] draft-brotman-rdbd X-BeenThere: dbound@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DNS tree bounds List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2019 02:14:23 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-1086578356-1554084814=:10050 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Content-ID: PS: >> For one thing, DKIM associates a key in the DNS with signatures in >> messages.  The DKIM key is public but the message isn't.  In this >> design, both ends are in the DNS and both are public. > > That makes no difference here that I can see. How does an RDBD > signature become worse because the signature bits are public? It doesn't, but since you can inspect DNS records pointing both ways, the signature buys you nothing of value. If you can believe the signature record has integrity because whatever, you can believe the same thing about a much simpler pointer record. Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly --0-1086578356-1554084814=:10050-- From nobody Sun Mar 31 19:18:58 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dbound@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dbound@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8376B120044 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 19:18:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CqT6fgESjHlE for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 19:18:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 74BF2120004 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 19:18:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id A699DBF73; Mon, 1 Apr 2019 03:18:50 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nKaCHKiC-uCx; Mon, 1 Apr 2019 03:18:48 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.138] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9D7FFBF6F; Mon, 1 Apr 2019 03:18:48 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1554085128; bh=8iOG87L3nbQt3ja1lgmJ9qCC7iELCcZp3frem1cpyLE=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=E8Ey8M1tDfnIqgEEYP9KlN3ErxPrxg2ixJmuOH+a+gv4ir4POXCVycG8SpBS3MDo0 0zzpHmK/zYoOShfztmPapPWOldcUGPYWcQFq8Wx0Z73r84g9YPPYhCoFU/SVAewoQ+ pUj0cqFPNd9rc/WgR5I+DblJcj6s88HoiUpAPhkE= To: "John R. Levine" Cc: dbound@ietf.org References: <26d0eebb-1086-2f2c-056a-ba10dc9e6ac9@cs.tcd.ie> <6b13a06f-ece2-d1c5-83b9-cfa0a30914f3@cs.tcd.ie> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; url= Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 03:18:47 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Bgx64fnCOGfRg5XVjpZdn4uXCk4J8dAK8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dbound] draft-brotman-rdbd X-BeenThere: dbound@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DNS tree bounds List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2019 02:18:57 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --Bgx64fnCOGfRg5XVjpZdn4uXCk4J8dAK8 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Cz5sSiP9Lv1dZ2R2CeRbstAYcaOUuaBrD"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "John R. Levine" Cc: dbound@ietf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [dbound] draft-brotman-rdbd References: <26d0eebb-1086-2f2c-056a-ba10dc9e6ac9@cs.tcd.ie> <6b13a06f-ece2-d1c5-83b9-cfa0a30914f3@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: --Cz5sSiP9Lv1dZ2R2CeRbstAYcaOUuaBrD Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------AD7E0F705AFEEE4BC4ACE545" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------AD7E0F705AFEEE4BC4ACE545 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 01/04/2019 03:10, John R. Levine wrote: >>>> For example, if a relying-party has seen the same public key used fo= r >>>> a relating domain N times or for N years, and sees that public key >>>> used again, then that relying-party can treat that differently, >>>> compared to a public key just seen now, without any DNSSEC. ... >=20 >> Again, that makes no difference. If a key has integrity (for a >> relying-party), it does not matter how new nor old a key that is. >=20 > Um, someone sending mail from your address just said a few minutes ago > that an older key is more credible. >=20 >> What aspect of key rotation do you think is relevant here? >=20 > Hey, you're the one who said "N years". Perhaps you are willing to entirely ignore the intent of what I'm saying and only try score pointless points? It does seem like that from this side TBH, but nonetheless... I always said "with integrity." Such integrity can be built up over years if there is no key rotation. Or it can be provided via DNSSEC independent of RBDB key rotations, which has more or less the same effect. That is all very straightforward. And I believe you do already understand that, so I remain utterly perplexed as to how you could possibly remain confused. At this point, it might be a stylish possibility for you to say "yeah, I was just testing the limits of your own understanding of your proposed scheme";-) Cheers, S. >=20 > Regards, > John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for > Dummies", > Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.= ly >=20 > _______________________________________________ > dbound mailing list > dbound@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dbound >=20 --------------AD7E0F705AFEEE4BC4ACE545 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE 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filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAlyhdQcACgkQWrL68XsX K+pznhAAxMP+cK4Acs5KfekC5+XHv+J7C6/zkHCs775AAsvLldguBwgI3UzTZHMY KLvSwSeLe4OjznlvMD5sz92FZzboWH5Fjke3+Mt4nB5j4JqpaxPIEJcLNv1a/YlI 0voQqg8YTr00WNAtLYQRgZipmhT9kI6lCORuIAwZSSrFPng+/4ekFZ5pp6sHTs45 XKn/AFRFspC5hzUIdJRilPXWsAgIkJ68d4nZgJ8/Zy3aDKcq+PbkgG3iuZRvaQ8f TNj9ljp0gMAyNAPWaZJzy8KVs2C+mNTaliV/K+QsG8JzMzfgO6bsOK9sVvD/Rbig Smg6mcEdrV29/jBy3tsluCt2kbDPuVp/TrEL2+PrtysWvgVtwlL0amn0FU+OiGEX ud1hzAKamVGvz/7FZbtUhC9U0m5XAE941R5UpQ+Oq1aze9YN9jtSAmhsqbAE8CPS FSuw5JDt6+oKI0R0mfNcR1/0ExfeLX0466L85j7Ho3sWdvmK2vOjrPfWjA/4R9m2 Ia8PfDt7GSQ+F4Ct/92xeBWYHCNmgI43or/tVJI8jcWboMUOxRLGNr8R1/k7DoVF tTk8NeeYIkzZSu3J6I/4kBF+ANltmqJ6ahnO0eLx2Fu579U8wYEqg7+vMRmVCZ6f pY0mNM+jSTvOIPVHgZhxgECu4pmD+6d3V7KDu/O6nHimhY5XMo4= =+kr1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Bgx64fnCOGfRg5XVjpZdn4uXCk4J8dAK8-- From nobody Sun Mar 31 19:23:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dbound@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dbound@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E258D12006D for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 19:23:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gI0slFpKROZ5 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 19:23:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3AF23120075 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 19:23:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96291BF9B; Mon, 1 Apr 2019 03:23:22 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P8Wldv1wUvyL; Mon, 1 Apr 2019 03:23:17 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.138] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 162BEBF6F; Mon, 1 Apr 2019 03:23:17 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1554085397; bh=7XEoeyXO7tZ/BFEAIiSeb+9u+WRGIDgWAMNCEWgJksg=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=UDj8eW6BvNqo7xgfTog4eX7rAL/5E1m6KqXoqK592AT/fYjPsQQm8ok8IBiu2eGnQ AHOt/2w2WOilLTX2YqJeQzigRcoXWX1oo43Rwx2NBLGUDiNnYy8E6lwOJ111jv3res BkMg8fJ6LHJZ6EKGqnIUlC58fkNn9ual/P9O//Pk= To: "John R. Levine" Cc: dbound@ietf.org References: <26d0eebb-1086-2f2c-056a-ba10dc9e6ac9@cs.tcd.ie> <6b13a06f-ece2-d1c5-83b9-cfa0a30914f3@cs.tcd.ie> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; url= Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: <3ccbca12-e69c-6f1a-5cf6-3533e1253b0b@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 03:23:16 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="mIed3xggQJ5r7WyXwFsFUXjqB5LKFNEhv" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dbound] draft-brotman-rdbd X-BeenThere: dbound@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DNS tree bounds List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2019 02:23:28 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --mIed3xggQJ5r7WyXwFsFUXjqB5LKFNEhv Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="AESitm7cwxZF4ebcDfjiZpuZL6eV9IYzF"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "John R. Levine" Cc: dbound@ietf.org Message-ID: <3ccbca12-e69c-6f1a-5cf6-3533e1253b0b@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [dbound] draft-brotman-rdbd References: <26d0eebb-1086-2f2c-056a-ba10dc9e6ac9@cs.tcd.ie> <6b13a06f-ece2-d1c5-83b9-cfa0a30914f3@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: --AESitm7cwxZF4ebcDfjiZpuZL6eV9IYzF Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------BC54B876C4EF02A6A5489A1B" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------BC54B876C4EF02A6A5489A1B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 01/04/2019 03:14, John R. Levine wrote: >=20 > It doesn't, but since you can inspect DNS records pointing both ways, > the signature buys you nothing of value.=C2=A0=20 Sorry, but begging the question so blatantly doesn't seem to me to be useful. > If you can believe the > signature record has integrity because whatever, you can believe the > same thing about a much simpler pointer record. Wrong. As previously explained. Your "whatever" above ignores all I said about public keys known with integrity. And your "the same thing" is not true on its face, when DNSSEC is not universal. Really - why persist in this? The only effect of your argument here seems to be to [maybe cause the rdbd idea to be tainted by pseudo-controversy - I don't see what that might gain anyone, you included. 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X4jKsDxrzTCfRCFuCyyQtfpaOgV1tMRHtewDLnCv01jjfQiqHrrk5iWtYd0Ckm5G RDBd4/Pmw/NcfoBzdhtsMgIi77cwHV67Tw+pW1bP/IP9P2OsgW7LZ6wZB1nL8Hkw AHjvH7piAFZCdc+iuoGM/nlchBHHI52knJc7SI7F/Gft0uTsnJ5KoxvOZT7swshk DBlzpYFoFTgwYWXPUGK+ZkIOuU6IffALj4Y8COcNZgXd4mvt2oBxQ6ZsQyRQgaZn bzKWmN6X6MtGPYlaT9WjdpV4o0R0Az1yKOykNKu0OK7nJsmdGPY= =kbGa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --mIed3xggQJ5r7WyXwFsFUXjqB5LKFNEhv-- From nobody Sun Mar 31 19:39:08 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dbound@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dbound@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12E21120241 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 19:38:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zxNVJObqFl0m for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 19:38:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA5F51201D6 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 19:38:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 54833 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2019 02:38:50 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=d62e.5ca179ba.k1903; bh=E3Hc5hXViV4LHkFZ4AcTAsM2DUsshBL486kzUYu/5jc=; b=IinEVTCyPWwbMVDK/I2jgO9ZQWMw/hE2EvEDgbjC5L/mOVCiZ31GeUT/CSUwF2OsJWwz+7Tqso5rHPLFBwLnD6v3PFcACMDj6OHBlaHt/sOB6Bcy0XDDbdd5Rs6LlHuylyvhJmaV9Dkxq85ZiT1ngkkc9Oi76LNlnxyYsi8MynQwo8+7vikCJgUJpT16HvMZHBPGS9j68kV9XaRm5lmPrjdbO49cUoKR35Sdppy/UUcMs5AVUzivozqC2VBF+Umu Received: from localhost ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 01 Apr 2019 02:38:50 -0000 Date: 31 Mar 2019 22:38:50 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R. Levine" To: "Stephen Farrell" Cc: dbound@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <3ccbca12-e69c-6f1a-5cf6-3533e1253b0b@cs.tcd.ie> References: <26d0eebb-1086-2f2c-056a-ba10dc9e6ac9@cs.tcd.ie> <6b13a06f-ece2-d1c5-83b9-cfa0a30914f3@cs.tcd.ie> <3ccbca12-e69c-6f1a-5cf6-3533e1253b0b@cs.tcd.ie> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21 (OSX 202 2017-01-01) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dbound] draft-brotman-rdbd X-BeenThere: dbound@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DNS tree bounds List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2019 02:39:06 -0000 >> If you can believe the >> signature record has integrity because whatever, you can believe the >> same thing about a much simpler pointer record. > > Wrong. As previously explained. > > Your "whatever" above ignores all I said about public keys > known with integrity. And your "the same thing" is not true > on its face, when DNSSEC is not universal. No, really, it doesn't. You're saying the public key is a token that people can find credible through a variety of routes, DNSSEC, stable publication, whatever. But exactly the same routes to credibility apply to pointer records. I also note that in practice, there doesn't ever seem to have been a spoofing attack on DKIM key records so in practice mail validators always accept them as valid. Mine have DNSSEC signatures but I'm not aware of any DKIM software that gives extra points to signed DKIM keys. I suppose that if there were some very high value application that depended on rdbd records there might be more of an incentive to use DNS attacks to fake them, but it all seems like a lot of extra work for utterly speculative benefits. Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From nobody Sun Mar 31 19:44:55 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dbound@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dbound@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12ADD12006D for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 19:44:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KYdJYvtrW8ww for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 19:44:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 75A96120049 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 19:44:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98CECBF73; Mon, 1 Apr 2019 03:44:48 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wvVq9emO4o4I; Mon, 1 Apr 2019 03:44:47 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.138] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 12C60BF6F; Mon, 1 Apr 2019 03:44:47 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1554086687; bh=BiswlQq5sfZ+C3sTy0VAcPJTJ6KBZBp5T+IrV6cCKhQ=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=dBNEDvsetXtOt00FVFvHHZvZFFhIVlUTWApetaZ83vmfwNnbNLd+tFKZ9IoT8Od2f Ii8HMw7c5O4B5K7Ihjj67czm8/GS43nvfwQ3qOscrUYn8w29O6zm1KBEjR990vZnUn z2F65joWfBvfPyucrxdl8/Ah3CjlLelGl6m+XxBg= To: "John R. Levine" Cc: dbound@ietf.org References: <26d0eebb-1086-2f2c-056a-ba10dc9e6ac9@cs.tcd.ie> <6b13a06f-ece2-d1c5-83b9-cfa0a30914f3@cs.tcd.ie> <3ccbca12-e69c-6f1a-5cf6-3533e1253b0b@cs.tcd.ie> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; url= Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 03:44:46 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="iivZRmBKOgcO3jJoqRpgQVZvgDDL1LwNe" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dbound] draft-brotman-rdbd X-BeenThere: dbound@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DNS tree bounds List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2019 02:44:54 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --iivZRmBKOgcO3jJoqRpgQVZvgDDL1LwNe Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="L2iEFU4ZRCG2eYeZtSZDn4LX5kUE1e4DQ"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "John R. Levine" Cc: dbound@ietf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [dbound] draft-brotman-rdbd References: <26d0eebb-1086-2f2c-056a-ba10dc9e6ac9@cs.tcd.ie> <6b13a06f-ece2-d1c5-83b9-cfa0a30914f3@cs.tcd.ie> <3ccbca12-e69c-6f1a-5cf6-3533e1253b0b@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: --L2iEFU4ZRCG2eYeZtSZDn4LX5kUE1e4DQ Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------D55DBB778D55512A79CDDEEE" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D55DBB778D55512A79CDDEEE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 01/04/2019 03:38, John R. Levine wrote: >=20 > I suppose that if there were some very high value application that > depended on rdbd records there might be more of an incentive to use DNS= > attacks to fake them, but it all seems like a lot of extra work for > utterly speculative benefits. Questioning the efficacy of rdbd signatures is reasonable but not at all the same as a claim to not understand 'em. I agree that the efficacy of these signatures isn't a slam dunk. The draft says as much. I'd be happy to improve the explanation in the text wrt that. But the signatures are optional. So if I'm wrong that they're useful, then that's ok, you'll be right and they'll not be used. Equally, if OTOH but unexpectedly, I'm not wrong, then there'll be a method for signing defined as part of the spec. What's wrong with that? Thanks, S. --------------D55DBB778D55512A79CDDEEE Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9t lyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQAB 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dkim=neutral reason="invalid (unsupported algorithm ed25519-sha256)" header.d=kitterman.com header.b=dK6FnCXM; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kitterman.com header.b=T4S8mOgS Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fXLkLqo_4DIX for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 20:51:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from interserver.kitterman.com (interserver.kitterman.com [64.20.48.66]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0FC62120049 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 20:51:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from interserver.kitterman.com (interserver.kitterman.com [64.20.48.66]) by interserver.kitterman.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C47FDF80956 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 23:51:15 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=ed25519-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=kitterman.com; i=@kitterman.com; q=dns/txt; s=201903e; t=1554090675; h=from : to : subject : date : 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[72.81.252.22]) by interserver.kitterman.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8C180F8071A for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2019 23:51:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Scott Kitterman To: dbound@ietf.org Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2019 23:51:13 -0400 Message-ID: <6145507.lIgk3o490W@kitterma-e6430> User-Agent: KMail/4.13.3 (Linux/3.13.0-164-generic; KDE/4.13.3; x86_64; ; ) In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dbound] draft-brotman-rdbd X-BeenThere: dbound@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DNS tree bounds List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2019 03:51:20 -0000 On Monday, April 01, 2019 03:44:46 AM Stephen Farrell wrote: > On 01/04/2019 03:38, John R. Levine wrote: > > I suppose that if there were some very high value application that > > depended on rdbd records there might be more of an incentive to use DNS > > attacks to fake them, but it all seems like a lot of extra work for > > utterly speculative benefits. > > Questioning the efficacy of rdbd signatures is reasonable but not > at all the same as a claim to not understand 'em. > > I agree that the efficacy of these signatures isn't a slam dunk. > The draft says as much. I'd be happy to improve the explanation > in the text wrt that. > > But the signatures are optional. So if I'm wrong that they're > useful, then that's ok, you'll be right and they'll not be used. > Equally, if OTOH but unexpectedly, I'm not wrong, then there'll > be a method for signing defined as part of the spec. > > What's wrong with that? It adds some significant complexity to the design. If the crypto bits have significant utility, then baking the needed protocol elements for smooth key rollover (e.g. for DKIM you use a new selector and leave both the old and new keys live for $TIME to allow everything that was in process to be received and validated before the old key is removed). Are multiple RDBD and RDBDKEY records allowed per domain? If not, particularly due to cache misalignment, a smooth key rollover will be very hard. Multiple records per domain would also allow for algorithm agility (publish both RSA and Ed25519 for transition as needed). Libraries implementing RDBD would need more dependencies and be more complex to deploy. My suggestion would be to think hard if it's really needed and if so, then make it a MUST. If not, take it out. It can be added easily enough later, right? I do think the explanation could be clearer. I was following along with John Levine's argument pretty well. It took me several scans of the draft to realize that the signature (RBDB record) is published by the relating domain and the public key (RDBDKEY record) is published by the related domain. Once I realized that, it made sense. A signed record, to the extent you can't spoof both domains simultaneously or nearly so, would give added confidence that the related domain agrees that that relationship is valid and not just examp1e.com claiming to be related to example.com. As a more general comment, RFC 8301 is the reference for the minimum key size of 1024 bits (RFC 6346 is 512). Also, it might be worth looking at RFC 8463 (which added Ed25519 to DKIM) to see if there's guidance on putting Ed25519 public keys in DNS that can be reused. Personally, I think I like the crypto bit, but if it's in, I'd like to see it be a MUST. Also, do we really need RSA? There are plenty of Ed25519 implementations available. Personally, I think it's simpler to deal with (and the public keys are way smaller, which is nice for DNS). Scott K