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Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="IncRFg7tTVJ1KGSSOJzazFkQRr4gXybo5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dbound] RDBD Questions X-BeenThere: dbound@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DNS tree bounds List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2019 16:00:44 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --IncRFg7tTVJ1KGSSOJzazFkQRr4gXybo5 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Sg11rgW5iUgP2a2M6QV2A8a3Vq5LzcXZH"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "dbound@ietf.org" Message-ID: <75544bed-e393-b9f6-04c4-00164169f5ea@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [dbound] RDBD Questions References: In-Reply-To: --Sg11rgW5iUgP2a2M6QV2A8a3Vq5LzcXZH Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------1A6491299AFD2DF174FDE6BA" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1A6491299AFD2DF174FDE6BA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, To add to your reading pleasure on I-D cutoff day, we've updated the draft [1] as described below. Comments welcome as always. Cheers, S. [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brotman-rdbd-02 On 05/06/2019 15:36, Brotman, Alexander wrote: > Hello all, >=20 > Stephen and I were able to sit down and discuss the feedback that was r= eceived during IETF and via the mailing list. Based on that conversation= , we're planning to make the following changes but would be happy to get = any feedback before/as we do that. >=20 > 1) A couple of people wanted a method for disavowing a relationship, i.= e. making a negative assertion. We believe we can achieve this by defini= ng another tag within the RDBD RR. > 2) As part of adding negative assertions, we're proposing that we make = it so that any place where you might list a single name today, you could = alternatively point to an HTTPS URL that points at a file containing a li= st of names. When doing the negative assertion, this'd allow for an easi= er method to list numerous entries. > 3) We'll explicitly document that the RDBD record type envisages multi-= valued responses just to make it clear that both positive and negative re= cords can be found at the same location. > 4) We're not sure if there is a preference for the DNSSEC-style RR valu= e we used in the 01 draft, or for the DKIM-style value that was used in t= he 00 draft. (We will of course stick with a new RRTYPE and not go back t= o abusing TXT:-) The end result is the same, but the format of the record= value may make more sense to some parties in one format or the other. F= or the DKIM-style, this is a familiar format to many who have worked with= SPF/DKIM/DMARC records. On the other hand, the DNSSEC-style might be mo= re familiar to those managing the DNS systems. We've not yet decided whic= h we prefer ourselves, so feedback on this is most welcome. >=20 > Thank you again for your feedback. >=20 > -- > Alex Brotman > Sr. Engineer, Anti-Abuse & Messaging Policy > Comcast >=20 > _______________________________________________ > dbound mailing list > dbound@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dbound >=20 --------------1A6491299AFD2DF174FDE6BA Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 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amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=yitter.info header.b=Fn8QLCqO; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=yitter.info header.b=GErDLoUl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hfsw2OI__xQ5 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 15:57:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.yitter.info (mx4.yitter.info [159.203.56.111]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0AEA21200DE for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 15:57:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx4.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTP id 216AABCD30 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 22:57:40 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yitter.info; s=default; t=1563836260; bh=FKqfDhfqBYfq39hzsWVbZq42g0ThZj0Xd6pab3PuvsM=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=Fn8QLCqOAcRSA9nEfwm/lWpZjSt+VrYEfLv+Bu/LKak6anoeTChsO/qmwiSFTr+Pr nye8fE/mw5KWeZkCJU0ZOIHGneNsXm/DrV7MF6c0zkTtvUpQpoLh/pVNFoDd1m5S1Q ZX4yYlgZOoFYulX0MWVldGxHpTrZmM2xfwxjzyr4= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at crankycanuck.ca Received: from mx4.yitter.info ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mx4.yitter.info [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OXoqbyZgn08B for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 22:57:38 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 18:57:36 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yitter.info; s=default; t=1563836258; bh=FKqfDhfqBYfq39hzsWVbZq42g0ThZj0Xd6pab3PuvsM=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=GErDLoUl+uYIIBROM/kWLDSZBLaGr9RHCDGFw6FWceYujjthMSOUVfci4ef5MiD8d eZyZVZ8mDpDA6e/DlHisxe/PWH73CVuBmhQ1DHSvhHy+qmAxVc2kSlpkbG21bZIZMP SXn5p/jtZYvvfRwwCEzNfVKgJC+7Huk6jiTlPikY= From: Andrew Sullivan To: dbound@ietf.org Message-ID: <20190722225736.4nz4xziuogtvpapo@mx4.yitter.info> References: <75544bed-e393-b9f6-04c4-00164169f5ea@cs.tcd.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <75544bed-e393-b9f6-04c4-00164169f5ea@cs.tcd.ie> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dbound] RDBD Questions X-BeenThere: dbound@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DNS tree bounds List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 22:57:44 -0000 Hi, As usual, though I happen to be employed by the Internet Society, I'm speaking for myself here. On Mon, Jul 08, 2019 at 05:00:22PM +0100, Stephen Farrell wrote: > To add to your reading pleasure on I-D cutoff > day, we've updated the draft [1] as described > below. Comments welcome as always. I've read this. As you might imagine, I rather like what this draft is trying to do. I also like the symmetry with the CDNSKEY trick, though I'm not sure it's going to work. Thanks for doing this, in any case, because I'm happy to see someone trying to solve this problem. One of the things that I think the draft would benefit from is some terminological distinctions that I think have long been missing. I think this shows up right in the introduction: Determining relationships between registered domains can be one of the more difficult investigations on the Internet. In some sense, of course, this is plainly false. "Is an ancestor of" and "is a descendent of", in the strict graph-theoretic sense of the meaning of "relationship", is easy to decide. All other relationships, in the DNS, are _from the point of view of the DNS_, not that interesting. The problem the draft is trying to address, however, is _not_ a DNS relationhip. Instead, it's an attempt to affirm that there is a _policy_ relationship between two domains. This is reasonably clear if you look at the use cases in the bullet list. I think that some of the conceptial material might be lifted from https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sullivan-dbound-problem-statement-02 or maybe https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-sullivan-domain-policy-authority-02.txt or https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sullivan-domain-origin-assert-02 (I tried, fruitlessly, more than once, as you can see :) ) One of the potential snags I see in here is a possible trap involving the nature of domain names. It's contained in this observation: "RDBD is intended to declare or disavow a relationship between registered domains, not individual hostnames." The problem is, basically, that inside the DNS there's actually no way to specify that distinction without querying for a bunch of SOA records, because every valid domain name is also trivially a valid owner name for an A or AAAA record and also a valid point for there to be a delegation. Indeed, a domain can also be a hostname easily. (It might be worthwhile having a look at https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8499 to see whether the terminology aligns really, though I suspect so. The real problem is the ambiguity in the relationship between domain names and hostnames.) I totally do not understand this claim: RDBD relationships are uni-directional. If bi-directional relationships exist, then both domains can publish RDBD RRs and optionally sign those. The relationships in question are necessarily policy relationships. In that sense, it is simply impossible for the relationship to be unidirectional, because it is a way of the "setting" side of making claims that are somehow supposed to be satisfied by the "setted" side of the relationship. Moreover, whenever you have a domain that appears to be a relating-domain that makes an assertion about a putatively related-domain, it seems to me that you need to check at the related-domain to see whether the putatively related-domain actually in fact has a repudiating record. It strikes me that the lookup loop problem in 6.3 happens precisely because of the unidirectionality of the definition. That is, if you had a bidirectional requirement, then it would be effectively impossible to have the chained loop described because the bidirectionality would cut that off. This would also avoid adding the somewhat arbitrary limit of how many lookups one ought to do. (I observe also that this SHOULD in section 6.3 doesn't really comport with the 2119 meaning of SHOULD, though I'm not one of the bossypants people about these uses.) Hope these comments are useful. A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com From nobody Mon Jul 22 21:52:37 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dbound@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dbound@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92FA912004F for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 21:52:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0YrKbFjUVlAh for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 21:52:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0849E12004E for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 21:52:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 682FCBE51; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 05:52:29 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P4QaLsaW2I3R; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 05:52:27 +0100 (IST) Received: from [31.133.147.102] (dhcp-9366.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.147.102]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BE935BE3E; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 05:52:19 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1563857547; bh=GvrRVmftbkjL4h1rSILTSKiCaM5UM+5X7dqs+RLz9zY=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=VYZN4idSsDUAKgCIIlkhueiPjEWK0MmMs/dHM1Bu0yVfXBgmTcq1c6TbEUTMFQ/i0 YUY1O4oGlXqIGFD+1gmXp742AqZX89es9DRU9wO3PJ4FKWvUZ5zunZdqjiSqq7uuZp bnuRN7+l/u3WBvDGlVHhx5LCa6SqVrntL8JFkObg= To: Andrew Sullivan , dbound@ietf.org References: <75544bed-e393-b9f6-04c4-00164169f5ea@cs.tcd.ie> <20190722225736.4nz4xziuogtvpapo@mx4.yitter.info> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; 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Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20190722225736.4nz4xziuogtvpapo@mx4.yitter.info> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Kkpn8SDWLVJrQu155dmXQropGkO6YJgWN" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dbound] RDBD Questions X-BeenThere: dbound@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DNS tree bounds List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 04:52:36 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --Kkpn8SDWLVJrQu155dmXQropGkO6YJgWN Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="UgrMRRMsEcNJIv5YFL0IGYKEt93R1UMFN"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Andrew Sullivan , dbound@ietf.org Message-ID: <45d41a2d-1bd2-4562-38fb-6a6c3c9fe4aa@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [dbound] RDBD Questions References: <75544bed-e393-b9f6-04c4-00164169f5ea@cs.tcd.ie> <20190722225736.4nz4xziuogtvpapo@mx4.yitter.info> In-Reply-To: <20190722225736.4nz4xziuogtvpapo@mx4.yitter.info> --UgrMRRMsEcNJIv5YFL0IGYKEt93R1UMFN Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------A9903623211A46E7E471E18A" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------A9903623211A46E7E471E18A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, Thanks for the comments, responses below... On 22/07/2019 23:57, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > Hi, >=20 > As usual, though I happen to be employed by the Internet Society, I'm > speaking for myself here. >=20 > On Mon, Jul 08, 2019 at 05:00:22PM +0100, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> To add to your reading pleasure on I-D cutoff >> day, we've updated the draft [1] as described >> below. Comments welcome as always. >=20 > I've read this. As you might imagine, I rather like what this draft > is trying to do. I also like the symmetry with the CDNSKEY trick, > though I'm not sure it's going to work. Thanks for doing this, in any > case, because I'm happy to see someone trying to solve this problem. >=20 > One of the things that I think the draft would benefit from is some > terminological distinctions that I think have long been missing. I > think this shows up right in the introduction: >=20 > Determining relationships between registered domains can be one of > the more difficult investigations on the Internet. >=20 > In some sense, of course, this is plainly false. "Is an ancestor of" > and "is a descendent of", in the strict graph-theoretic sense of the > meaning of "relationship", is easy to decide. All other > relationships, in the DNS, are _from the point of view of the DNS_, > not that interesting. True. >=20 > The problem the draft is trying to address, however, is _not_ a DNS > relationhip. Instead, it's an attempt to affirm that there is a > _policy_ relationship between two domains. This is reasonably clear > if you look at the use cases in the bullet list. Well, we're trying to be agnostic as to the semantics of what the relationship is. The logic being that if we get the mechanism right, additional tags can be allocated later when specific semantics are in play. So I'm not sure if describing that as a policy relationship is quite right. >=20 > I think that some of the conceptial material might be lifted from > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sullivan-dbound-problem-statement-02 > or maybe > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-sullivan-domain-policy-authority-= 02.txt > or https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sullivan-domain-origin-assert-02 > (I tried, fruitlessly, more than once, as you can see :) ) I'll re-read those and try steal as and when seems wise:-) >=20 > One of the potential snags I see in here is a possible trap involving > the nature of domain names. It's contained in this observation: "RDBD > is intended to declare or disavow a relationship between registered > domains, not individual hostnames." The problem is, basically, that > inside the DNS there's actually no way to specify that distinction > without querying for a bunch of SOA records, because every valid > domain name is also trivially a valid owner name for an A or AAAA > record and also a valid point for there to be a delegation. Indeed, a > domain can also be a hostname easily. (It might be worthwhile having > a look at https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8499 to see whether the > terminology aligns really, though I suspect so. The real problem is > the ambiguity in the relationship between domain names and hostnames.) Yeah, that's fair. I think we could lose that statement. > I totally do not understand this claim: >=20 > RDBD relationships are uni-directional. If bi-directional > relationships exist, then both domains can publish RDBD RRs and > optionally sign those. >=20 > The relationships in question are necessarily policy relationships. See above wrt "policy" and semantics. > In that sense, it is simply impossible for the relationship to be > unidirectional, because it is a way of the "setting" side of making > claims that are somehow supposed to be satisfied by the "setted" side > of the relationship. Moreover, whenever you have a domain that > appears to be a relating-domain that makes an assertion about a > putatively related-domain, it seems to me that you need to check at > the related-domain to see whether the putatively related-domain > actually in fact has a repudiating record. I'm pretty sure I disagree with you there, though I may be wrong, and/or it could be our text is confusing. What we meant by uni-directional was that just because example.ie claims to be related to example.de doesn't mean that example.de necessarily makes the same declaration. (It can of course, but might not.) Whether some consumer of this information really needs to check that both sides make commensurate declarations is, I think, dependent on the semantics of the relationship, which, again, we want to avoid for now. > It strikes me that the lookup loop problem in 6.3 happens precisely > because of the unidirectionality of the definition. That is, if you > had a bidirectional requirement, then it would be effectively > impossible to have the chained loop described because the > bidirectionality would cut that off. =20 I suspect anything with pointers can cause loops, but sure, whenever we're closer to done, this could be handled. > This would also avoid adding the > somewhat arbitrary limit of how many lookups one ought to do. (I > observe also that this SHOULD in section 6.3 doesn't really comport > with the 2119 meaning of SHOULD, though I'm not one of the bossypants > people about these uses.) Fair enough. Will take a look at it. >=20 > Hope these comments are useful. They are thanks, S. >=20 > A >=20 --------------A9903623211A46E7E471E18A Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9t 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autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=yitter.info header.b=j+NsPWhE; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=yitter.info header.b=HAduLZVx Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hqov_fjCut-b for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 22:37:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.yitter.info (mx4.yitter.info [159.203.56.111]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AC9F9120041 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 22:37:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx4.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6B71BCD30 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 05:37:22 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yitter.info; s=default; t=1563860242; bh=Akpzzx6nWxV73PG4c7Bf/Bz+VFWJ6ikWnl6+mU3WcHQ=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=j+NsPWhEt31Am00KGggeCVaAurw6VmlVstDECZXNH2kXr279Morg/KbuLM9296Opk ZN7t5pbsN8PdIvXfKA2QsL2QLA9hMgniwyKbJkfSsiRF7Ynlih+yk7/BwRCz2+jPk3 Mc0uvnsoXq1bMylilN7w++whhk38o/QlS4Dy47hU= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at crankycanuck.ca Received: from mx4.yitter.info ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mx4.yitter.info [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AYhkZXBwPVmZ for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 05:37:21 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 01:37:19 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yitter.info; s=default; t=1563860241; bh=Akpzzx6nWxV73PG4c7Bf/Bz+VFWJ6ikWnl6+mU3WcHQ=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=HAduLZVxfp6lKBrRgt5kIgtB9hOtNr5SdKkgHpQEWCX3xgI0tpy14kj+q1PBYJta1 Tj7NeRjrjDkBOttViCTojN4Gz6uRQk15SJHDfXso6JMIgAxwnFlIH65Lfb4MZ1mt9e XdBJ7yz0FhBQnS/vuAZbQD0s7dmfY6liv20aymQQ= From: Andrew Sullivan To: dbound@ietf.org Message-ID: <20190723053719.axmhtbizlntvyoe4@mx4.yitter.info> References: <75544bed-e393-b9f6-04c4-00164169f5ea@cs.tcd.ie> <20190722225736.4nz4xziuogtvpapo@mx4.yitter.info> <45d41a2d-1bd2-4562-38fb-6a6c3c9fe4aa@cs.tcd.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <45d41a2d-1bd2-4562-38fb-6a6c3c9fe4aa@cs.tcd.ie> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dbound] RDBD Questions X-BeenThere: dbound@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DNS tree bounds List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 05:37:56 -0000 Hi, Same disclaimer as before. (Sorry that it gets dull, but we really want to make sure the ISOC/IETF LLC relationship is a bright line before we stop.) On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 05:52:17AM +0100, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > On 22/07/2019 23:57, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > > The problem the draft is trying to address, however, is _not_ a DNS > > relationhip. Instead, it's an attempt to affirm that there is a > > _policy_ relationship between two domains. This is reasonably clear > > if you look at the use cases in the bullet list. > > Well, we're trying to be agnostic as to the semantics of > what the relationship is. The logic being that if we get > the mechanism right, additional tags can be allocated later > when specific semantics are in play. So I'm not sure if > describing that as a policy relationship is quite right. This is possibly the part that's balling me up, and possibly the place that I need a better understanding. I think that inside a protocol P, there are two things you can state: 1. This is how A & B relate inside P; or 2. This is how A & B, which are objects of P, relate outside P. I claim that any operator of P has exactly those two choices, and that from the point of view of the operator of P everything in (2) amounts to policy. For the particular thing that RDBD is doing, the draft approaches this from the point of view of "things I want to put in the DNS about an obect of management for the DNS". From the DNS's point of view, that's a _policy_ expression, whatever you might think it applies to. You can be agnostic all day long about semantics, but you are not changing the semantics of the DNS and therefore inside the protocol you hope to address, you're expressing policy. I think this is a very fine thing to do, please note. I just think that, given the way DNS works, it has to be symmetrical or you won't be able to express what you think you can. Best regards, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com From nobody Tue Jul 23 05:50:40 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dbound@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dbound@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 893B612013D for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 05:50:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FX2tK8YKQKW2 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 05:50:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0FC6F120119 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 05:50:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id B27AEBE55; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 13:50:34 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2ACbC2yo--BG; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 13:50:33 +0100 (IST) Received: from [31.133.153.97] (dhcp-9961.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.153.97]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A212EBE53; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 13:50:32 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1563886233; bh=/BCQP9kkGtj9+Qd3lISHdxsxtItxtnxnQ4X3DqV0IkQ=; h=To:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=hUGQEY2JvkjIDAPAdDy7Nm6k4ioaGrJJ3Y3u3TfLg0yrHOenN5Sq8Bnjfy56EISjh 9/kISou8fVTRK05mzixUp5L7Tfaj5wZiA+hSnxVyEOq1Ch+VIsU7hg3cA1lDW373a/ y45iCE2ZAW/5YxBDCS2twyGB+pBYXCJZBAZ3PBTw= To: Andrew Sullivan , dbound@ietf.org References: <75544bed-e393-b9f6-04c4-00164169f5ea@cs.tcd.ie> <20190722225736.4nz4xziuogtvpapo@mx4.yitter.info> <45d41a2d-1bd2-4562-38fb-6a6c3c9fe4aa@cs.tcd.ie> <20190723053719.axmhtbizlntvyoe4@mx4.yitter.info> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; 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Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20190723053719.axmhtbizlntvyoe4@mx4.yitter.info> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="inpFc9o2gEZdVqYNQPt8bafCiAgi6pY5n" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dbound] RDBD Questions X-BeenThere: dbound@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DNS tree bounds List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 12:50:40 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --inpFc9o2gEZdVqYNQPt8bafCiAgi6pY5n Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="PZ2B3AOzlyHoGNLLoXKuubh7AG9pk3rSN"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Andrew Sullivan , dbound@ietf.org Message-ID: <87b6973f-ad9e-d007-2d8d-4091d630a084@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [dbound] RDBD Questions References: <75544bed-e393-b9f6-04c4-00164169f5ea@cs.tcd.ie> <20190722225736.4nz4xziuogtvpapo@mx4.yitter.info> <45d41a2d-1bd2-4562-38fb-6a6c3c9fe4aa@cs.tcd.ie> <20190723053719.axmhtbizlntvyoe4@mx4.yitter.info> In-Reply-To: <20190723053719.axmhtbizlntvyoe4@mx4.yitter.info> --PZ2B3AOzlyHoGNLLoXKuubh7AG9pk3rSN Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------859EFFF79D3CF94890986265" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------859EFFF79D3CF94890986265 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 23/07/2019 06:37, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > Hi, >=20 > Same disclaimer as before. (Sorry that it gets dull, but we really > want to make sure the ISOC/IETF LLC relationship is a bright line > before we stop.) That's ok. A #include form might work for follow-ups:-) >=20 > On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 05:52:17AM +0100, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> >> On 22/07/2019 23:57, Andrew Sullivan wrote: >=20 >>> The problem the draft is trying to address, however, is _not_ a DNS >>> relationhip. Instead, it's an attempt to affirm that there is a >>> _policy_ relationship between two domains. This is reasonably clear >>> if you look at the use cases in the bullet list. >> >> Well, we're trying to be agnostic as to the semantics of >> what the relationship is. The logic being that if we get >> the mechanism right, additional tags can be allocated later >> when specific semantics are in play. So I'm not sure if >> describing that as a policy relationship is quite right. >=20 > This is possibly the part that's balling me up, and possibly the place > that I need a better understanding. I think that inside a protocol P, > there are two things you can state: >=20 > 1. This is how A & B relate inside P; or >=20 > 2. This is how A & B, which are objects of P, relate outside P. >=20 > I claim that any operator of P has exactly those two choices, and that > from the point of view of the operator of P everything in (2) amounts > to policy. I agree rdbd matches case 2. I think calling that "policy" is maybe not a good plan though as people seem to generally infer that policy issues are always extremely weighty matters that require lots and lots of complex mechanics. > For the particular thing that RDBD is doing, the draft approaches this > from the point of view of "things I want to put in the DNS about an > obect of management for the DNS". From the DNS's point of view, > that's a _policy_ expression, whatever you might think it applies to. > You can be agnostic all day long about semantics, but you are not > changing the semantics of the DNS and therefore inside the protocol > you hope to address, you're expressing policy. >=20 > I think this is a very fine thing to do, please note. I just think > that, given the way DNS works, it has to be symmetrical or you won't > be able to express what you think you can. Hmm. Two things I guess: 1) I fully admit my relative ignorance of DNS, so you may be right, and 2) I still think you're maybe wrong:-) If we're dealing with an rdbd tag of 1 (some, unstated, positive relationship), then I think the rdbd mechanism can still be uni-directional even if the real-world relationship is not. And using the mechanism twice, once for each direction, is entirely possible. So a uni-directional mechanism seems to me to be a better stake in the ground. Second, if we're dealing with some other putative tag value, say with some semantic related to ownership of the real-world entities, then that's an inherently asymmetric relationship, which again leads me to think that a uni-directional mechanism might be best. All that said, you're right that this is a topic to mull over, and (for this to work out well) we need to address it in some way that doesn't create big barriers to deployment. Cheers, S. >=20 > Best regards, >=20 > A >=20 --------------859EFFF79D3CF94890986265 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9t 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