From nobody Tue Aug 19 08:37:24 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dclc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dclc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF9771A03F9 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2014 08:37:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -114.569 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-114.569 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, J_CHICKENPOX_22=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6S1uzOU1VFsP for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2014 08:37:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.86.77]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A3FC01A03E6 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2014 08:37:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=8665; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1408462640; x=1409672240; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=3JAB+okTzAMiaefuiUbuIyFmJj6v+o4FbM11I220BUs=; b=ixZfc+0WGd1Qy8+kc8Rhitm1XKNQP+jagVHgABeNdXPTyYvv0MvnkOkP D4J5Fujai14dLDQURjK50Lmxobzanlz3XXUW2HAz9vbGawpp5jx4MfLpp oXnbJvN52dxVqEEW6q9znPPPilYDJFWy3ZrRg19YsjkbUsE2mk8p101SS U=; X-Files: signature.asc : 195 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgkHAMhu81OtJV2Y/2dsb2JhbABZgw2BKgTQa4NTAYEKFneEBAEBAwEdXAULAgEIRjIlAgQOBQ4GiCYIwUEXiX+Eaw4CAgFPB4MvgR0FkSWCAIFKgxWEPpUDg11sgUiBBwEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.01,895,1400025600"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="348681500" Received: from rcdn-core-1.cisco.com ([173.37.93.152]) by rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 19 Aug 2014 15:37:19 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x07.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x07.cisco.com [173.36.12.81]) by rcdn-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s7JFbJi5007386 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 19 Aug 2014 15:37:19 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x09.cisco.com ([169.254.9.15]) by xhc-aln-x07.cisco.com ([173.36.12.81]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Tue, 19 Aug 2014 10:37:19 -0500 From: "Fred Baker (fred)" To: dclc Thread-Topic: Increasing RG meeting effectiveness Thread-Index: AQHPtfpvcDdJ7MEJm0e0cbqb250HHZvYbsaA Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 15:37:18 +0000 Message-ID: <30B5DC39-75B2-446C-89A2-4E783FC8E078@cisco.com> References: <16537E36-88DC-4C6C-A556-1F8EA8C66430@netapp.com> In-Reply-To: <16537E36-88DC-4C6C-A556-1F8EA8C66430@netapp.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.19.64.114] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_27CB00CD-A89C-43CE-B4AE-B7B9E9F1D2FF"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dclc/BRSBW8C2BYvmWpZ_5lxRPGAdi1U Cc: =?gb2312?B?tcvB6cDyL0xpbmdsaSBEZW5n?= Subject: Re: [Dclc] Increasing RG meeting effectiveness X-BeenThere: dclc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Data Center Latency Control List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 15:37:23 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_27CB00CD-A89C-43CE-B4AE-B7B9E9F1D2FF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 I had a strange mail outage; I sent this a couple of days ago, and I see = it neither in my own records nor on dclc@. Apologies if it=92s a repeat. Lars (IRTF Chair) sent the following a couple of weeks ago. We=92re a = poster child, and Lingli and I think the point is well taken. We have had two meetings. One, at IETF-89, wasn=92t widely announced. It = happened in a small room with perhaps 20 chairs and as many people. = Lingli showed a couple of slides, as did I, and we had a good general = discussion. Our first =93real=94 meeting was at IETF-90, in a room for = 300 with construction noise and 39 scattered participants. A number of = factors contributed, but the meeting was well described as a sequence of = presentations with a little discussion after each. Lars is suggesting meetings in places suited to the number of = participants, in a discussion format. Sounds good to us. If that makes = someone feel excluded, we obviously don=92t want that, but we think this = might be more inclusive anyway. My suggestion for the moment is that people post what they like to the = list, and if we have enough to have one, we can have a webex-or-whatever = meeting. Otherwise, perhaps in October, we=92ll ask what topics people = would like to discuss f2f, and organize a meeting around a few topics. On Aug 11, 2014, at 11:55 PM, Eggert, Lars wrote: > Hi, >=20 > sorry for the length of this email. >=20 > I've been thinking about how we can increase the effectiveness of IRTF = RG meetings during IETF weeks. My personal experience over the last few = years is that RG meetings in very large IETF meeting rooms generally do = not work well for many RGs. >=20 > These huge IETF rooms encourage a one-way pass-down of information = from the speaker to the (silent) audience, and only a few participants = (usually the same ones) making their way to the microphones to ask a few = questions. It's usually impossible to have any sort of deeper or longer = discussion under these circumstances. >=20 > I'm not saying that these classroom-style setups are wrong for all RGs = - they may work well for some that operate more like academic workshops = (e.g., NMRG), but they strike me as the wrong forum for RGs that need to = operate differently in order to make progress. >=20 > As an example, I was struck by how much more effective the DCLC side = meeting in London was, compared to the on-the-agenda meeting the = proposed RG had in Toronto. In London, the meeting was in a = boardroom-style arrangement with about 20 seats; in Toronto, it was in a = huge IETF meeting room with a 300-seat classroom setup.=20 >=20 > Part of the reason was that in the small room in London, no = microphones were used, and there were almost no presentations. It was a = free-flowing discussion that was minuted and later continued by email. = The Toronto meeting, in contrast, emulated an IETF WG meeting as many = RGs are prone to do when meeting in IETF rooms: invited presentations, = very little discussion, very little email followup, everyone dutifully = using the microphones and jabber scribing, although there seemed to be = only a single remote participant who actually participated (and that is = one more than many RGs usually have.) >=20 > (To be clear: I picked DCLC above as an example; I've experienced the = same with other groups.) >=20 > So, I'd like to try a somewhat radical experiment in the IRTF, and try = and meet differently. In short: No more huge IETF rooms, no more = microphone lines, a lot fewer presentations. >=20 > The longer version is this: >=20 >=20 > (1) Rooms=20 >=20 > I'm trying to see if the secretariat can set up one meeting room for = the IRTF that has a boardroom-style table at the front of the room, and = a few classroom-style seating rows in the back. The idea is that active = participants chose to sit at the boardroom table, while folks that are = mostly there to listen sit in the rows. As chairs, you either select who = you think your active participants are by some process you choose, or = you trust your participants to self-regulate. Yes, this will require = some planning by the chairs. >=20 > The boardroom-style table has a few omnidirectional microphones, so = people around the table can speak freely without needing to form a line. = (Chairs may still need to manage a virtual queue when the discussion = gets heated.) There is the usual floor mike near the classroom-style = seating rows, so everyone has a chance to chime in. >=20 > (Variant: If the boardroom+classroom setup cannot be done, a = boardroom-only setup may be sufficient. In that case, the chairs will = need to crowd control their meeting in some form.) >=20 > It's likely that not everyone showing up for an RG session will fit = into the room, if the seating arrangement is changed in this way. To me, = this is fine. IRTF RGs do not do standards, and while I like the groups = to be as open as possible, that doesn't mean that we need to cater to = 200 tourists in an RG session that do not usefully contribute to what = the RG is trying to achieve. I'm happy to be the point man here to argue = this to the community, so chairs don't have to. >=20 >=20 > (2) Remote attendance >=20 > Nobody at the boardroom table will remember to say their name before = they speak. That's OK, as long as they say it once. Regular participants = who happen to be remote will usually recognize others by voice. Everyone = else will have a bit of a hard time. >=20 > That's OK by me - I don't think we need to bend over backwards to make = in-room interactions too difficult for the sake of remote participants, = few of whom actually do actively participate in the meeting. I wish = there was a way to make in-room and remote participation similarly = effective, but I don't know of one. If I have to pick, I want to = optimize for those folks who actually show up in the room. >=20 > (Yes, this is controversial, and I would not suggest this for an IETF = WG.) >=20 >=20 > (3) Meeting style >=20 > In general, there are too many presentations at RG meetings, and too = little discussion. Your duty as chairs is not to simply do a call for = presentations and then fill up the available meeting time with random = presentation requests as they come in. You are chairs because you care = about the topic of your RG and want to see certain outcomes happening. = Use the meeting time you have towards that goal. Be ruthless. >=20 > This can mean no presentations at all. It can mean having a single, = carefully prepared presentation on a hard question, followed by a long = discussion. It can mean a series of related smaller presentations on a = given topic, followed by discussion. Do whatever furthers the goals you = want to achieve. >=20 > I've been in too many RG meetings that filled 80% of their agenda time = with presentations, all of which ran long, leaving maybe 5% of the = effective time for any sort of group discussion. If your group needs = this kind of meeting at the moment , please consider if a Webex wouldn't = be a more effective way of making progress. There is no need to wait for = a face-to-face opportunity for these meetings, and wasting facetime on = such meetings doesn't seem like a great idea. >=20 > (There are RGs that operate more like academic workshops, i.e., the = NMRG at the moment. Much of the above doesn't really apply to them.) >=20 >=20 > I'm very interested in your feedback here. I have chatted with the = secretariat in London about whether the boardroom+classroom setup is = possible to try out in Honolulu (and I'm CC'in Stephanie so she = remembers we chatted about this, since it was Friday :-) >=20 > Once this is hashed out a bit more, I'd love for some RGs to try this = approach out and see if it works better for them. >=20 > Lars >=20 --Apple-Mail=_27CB00CD-A89C-43CE-B4AE-B7B9E9F1D2FF Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iD8DBQFT828tbjEdbHIsm0MRAkb1AKCIJjpT0lQddWxByoOVkHWp7U+EyACgmPnA 7QvO5/s+HOHFoPRYGKwLfT4= =PbWG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_27CB00CD-A89C-43CE-B4AE-B7B9E9F1D2FF-- From nobody Fri Aug 22 02:59:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dclc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dclc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A39331A01E0 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 02:59:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.219 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.219 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, J_CHICKENPOX_22=0.6, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1cW62JYl-Qki for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 02:59:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga01-in.huawei.com (szxga01-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.64]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7FB261A00C5 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 02:59:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.24.2.119 (EHLO nkgeml405-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CAQ91049; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 17:59:07 +0800 (CST) Received: from NKGEML507-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.39]) by nkgeml405-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.36]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 17:59:04 +0800 From: Weixinpeng To: "Fred Baker (fred)" , dclc Thread-Topic: Increasing RG meeting effectiveness Thread-Index: AQHPtfpvcDdJ7MEJm0e0cbqb250HHZvYbsaAgAQAccA= Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 09:59:04 +0000 Message-ID: References: <16537E36-88DC-4C6C-A556-1F8EA8C66430@netapp.com> <30B5DC39-75B2-446C-89A2-4E783FC8E078@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <30B5DC39-75B2-446C-89A2-4E783FC8E078@cisco.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.76.176] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dclc/RxG8VK5AOrylhuUFL1Gh9UYsjyY Cc: =?gb2312?B?tcvB6cDyL0xpbmdsaSBEZW5n?= Subject: Re: [Dclc] Increasing RG meeting effectiveness X-BeenThere: dclc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Data Center Latency Control List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 09:59:25 -0000 SGkgRnJlZCBhbmQgYWxsLA0KTGV0IG1lIGludHJvZHVjZSBzb21ldGhpbmcgcGVvcGxlIHdlIGFy ZSB3b3JraW5nIG9uIGluIFRTVldHIHRoYXQgcGVvcGxlIGhlcmUgbWF5IGJlIGludGVyZXN0ZWQg aW4uDQpXaGF0IHdlIGFyZSBkb2luZyBpcyBhYm91dCBob3cgdG8gZG8gY29uZ2VzdGlvbiBjb250 cm9sIGluIHR1bm5lbCBzY2VuYXJpbywgYW5kIGFzcGVjdHMgc3VjaCBhcyBiYXNpYyBjb25nZXN0 aW9uIGNvbnRyb2wgbW9kZWwsIGZlZWRiYWNrIG1lY2hhbmlzbSBhcmUgZGlzY3Vzc2VkLg0KSSB0 aGluayB0aGUgREMgaXMgYSBnb29kIHNjZW5hcmlvIHRoYXQgdGhlIG1lY2hhbmlzbSBpcyBzdWl0 ZWQgdG8uIFNvIGlmIHlvdSBoYXZlIGludGVyZXN0cyBvbiB0aGlzLCBJIHByZWZlciB0byBoYXZl IGEgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBhYm91dCBpdCBpbiBEQ0xDLiANCkhlcmUgaXMgdGhlIGxpbmsgZm9yIHRo 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IG91dCBhbmQgc2VlIGlmIGl0IHdvcmtzIGJldHRlciBmb3IgdGhlbS4NCj4+DQo+PiBMYXJzDQo+ Pg0KDQo= From nobody Fri Aug 22 10:10:18 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dclc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dclc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 341211A069E for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 10:10:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -112.119 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-112.119 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, J_CHICKENPOX_22=0.6, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lVedPZZLE9yt for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 10:10:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com 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d="asc'?scan'208";a="71568271" Received: from alln-core-4.cisco.com ([173.36.13.137]) by alln-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 22 Aug 2014 17:10:05 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x07.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x07.cisco.com [173.37.183.81]) by alln-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s7MHA5Rq026661 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 22 Aug 2014 17:10:05 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x09.cisco.com ([169.254.9.15]) by xhc-rcd-x07.cisco.com ([173.37.183.81]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 12:10:05 -0500 From: "Fred Baker (fred)" To: Weixinpeng Thread-Topic: [Dclc] Increasing RG meeting effectiveness Thread-Index: AQHPtfpvcDdJ7MEJm0e0cbqb250HHQ== Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 17:10:04 +0000 Message-ID: References: <16537E36-88DC-4C6C-A556-1F8EA8C66430@netapp.com> <30B5DC39-75B2-446C-89A2-4E783FC8E078@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.19.64.114] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7CDCFD34-1FA6-43B6-BB33-EC55691202A6"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dclc/oXxBpQeVOUgw9Kt3ABRe_AZMyjE Cc: =?gb2312?B?tcvB6cDyL0xpbmdsaSBEZW5n?= , dclc Subject: Re: [Dclc] Increasing RG meeting effectiveness X-BeenThere: dclc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Data Center Latency Control List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 17:10:14 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_7CDCFD34-1FA6-43B6-BB33-EC55691202A6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 On Aug 22, 2014, at 2:59 AM, Weixinpeng wrote: > Hi Fred and all, > Let me introduce something people we are working on in TSVWG that = people here may be interested in. > What we are doing is about how to do congestion control in tunnel = scenario, and aspects such as basic congestion control model, feedback = mechanism are discussed. > I think the DC is a good scenario that the mechanism is suited to. So = if you have interests on this, I prefer to have a discussion about it in = DCLC.=20 > Here is the link for the document, > = http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wei-tsvwg-tunnel-congestion-feedback= /=20 > Thanks! Thanks for the pointer. The questions that comes quickly to mind are: 1) does the proposed algorithm manage latency? 2) is it intended for use in a data center? There are other places where latency is an issue; for example, RFCs 6057 = and 6817 are in direct response to issues of latency and loss as a = result of bitorrent use in residential broadband networks. At some = point, it would likely be of value to widen our scope to look at such = issues. It is described as "congestion control", not "latency control". In terms = of TCP's knee and cliff, I would expect congestion control would be = about maximizing throughput while "not hitting the cliff" and latency = control would be about maximizing throughput while "seeking the knee". = Which goal does your algorithm trend towards? In other words, I=A1=AFm = not stating that it is, but I wonder: would ICCRG be a better venue? How would you answer those questions? > BR, > Xinpeng >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Dclc [mailto:dclc-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker = (fred) >> Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 11:37 PM >> To: dclc >> Cc: =B5=CB=C1=E9=C0=F2/Lingli Deng >> Subject: Re: [Dclc] Increasing RG meeting effectiveness >>=20 >> I had a strange mail outage; I sent this a couple of days ago, and I = see it >> neither in my own records nor on dclc@. Apologies if it=A1=AFs a = repeat. >>=20 >> Lars (IRTF Chair) sent the following a couple of weeks ago. We=A1=AFre = a poster >> child, and Lingli and I think the point is well taken. >>=20 >> We have had two meetings. One, at IETF-89, wasn=A1=AFt widely = announced. It >> happened in a small room with perhaps 20 chairs and as many people. = Lingli >> showed a couple of slides, as did I, and we had a good general = discussion. Our >> first =A1=B0real=A1=B1 meeting was at IETF-90, in a room for 300 with = construction noise >> and 39 scattered participants. A number of factors contributed, but = the >> meeting was well described as a sequence of presentations with a = little >> discussion after each. >>=20 >> Lars is suggesting meetings in places suited to the number of = participants, in a >> discussion format. Sounds good to us. If that makes someone feel = excluded, >> we obviously don=A1=AFt want that, but we think this might be more = inclusive >> anyway. >>=20 >> My suggestion for the moment is that people post what they like to = the list, >> and if we have enough to have one, we can have a webex-or-whatever >> meeting. Otherwise, perhaps in October, we=A1=AFll ask what topics = people would >> like to discuss f2f, and organize a meeting around a few topics. >>=20 >> On Aug 11, 2014, at 11:55 PM, Eggert, Lars wrote: >>=20 >>> Hi, >>>=20 >>> sorry for the length of this email. >>>=20 >>> I've been thinking about how we can increase the effectiveness of = IRTF RG >> meetings during IETF weeks. My personal experience over the last few = years is >> that RG meetings in very large IETF meeting rooms generally do not = work well >> for many RGs. >>>=20 >>> These huge IETF rooms encourage a one-way pass-down of information = from >> the speaker to the (silent) audience, and only a few participants = (usually the >> same ones) making their way to the microphones to ask a few = questions. It's >> usually impossible to have any sort of deeper or longer discussion = under these >> circumstances. >>>=20 >>> I'm not saying that these classroom-style setups are wrong for all = RGs - they >> may work well for some that operate more like academic workshops = (e.g., >> NMRG), but they strike me as the wrong forum for RGs that need to = operate >> differently in order to make progress. >>>=20 >>> As an example, I was struck by how much more effective the DCLC side >> meeting in London was, compared to the on-the-agenda meeting the >> proposed RG had in Toronto. In London, the meeting was in a = boardroom-style >> arrangement with about 20 seats; in Toronto, it was in a huge IETF = meeting >> room with a 300-seat classroom setup. >>>=20 >>> Part of the reason was that in the small room in London, no = microphones >> were used, and there were almost no presentations. It was a = free-flowing >> discussion that was minuted and later continued by email. The Toronto >> meeting, in contrast, emulated an IETF WG meeting as many RGs are = prone to >> do when meeting in IETF rooms: invited presentations, very little = discussion, >> very little email followup, everyone dutifully using the microphones = and >> jabber scribing, although there seemed to be only a single remote = participant >> who actually participated (and that is one more than many RGs usually = have.) >>>=20 >>> (To be clear: I picked DCLC above as an example; I've experienced = the same >> with other groups.) >>>=20 >>> So, I'd like to try a somewhat radical experiment in the IRTF, and = try and >> meet differently. In short: No more huge IETF rooms, no more = microphone >> lines, a lot fewer presentations. >>>=20 >>> The longer version is this: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> (1) Rooms >>>=20 >>> I'm trying to see if the secretariat can set up one meeting room for = the IRTF >> that has a boardroom-style table at the front of the room, and a few >> classroom-style seating rows in the back. The idea is that active = participants >> chose to sit at the boardroom table, while folks that are mostly = there to listen >> sit in the rows. As chairs, you either select who you think your = active >> participants are by some process you choose, or you trust your = participants to >> self-regulate. Yes, this will require some planning by the chairs. >>>=20 >>> The boardroom-style table has a few omnidirectional microphones, so >> people around the table can speak freely without needing to form a = line. >> (Chairs may still need to manage a virtual queue when the discussion = gets >> heated.) There is the usual floor mike near the classroom-style = seating rows, >> so everyone has a chance to chime in. >>>=20 >>> (Variant: If the boardroom+classroom setup cannot be done, a >> boardroom-only setup may be sufficient. In that case, the chairs will = need to >> crowd control their meeting in some form.) >>>=20 >>> It's likely that not everyone showing up for an RG session will fit = into the >> room, if the seating arrangement is changed in this way. To me, this = is fine. >> IRTF RGs do not do standards, and while I like the groups to be as = open as >> possible, that doesn't mean that we need to cater to 200 tourists in = an RG >> session that do not usefully contribute to what the RG is trying to = achieve. I'm >> happy to be the point man here to argue this to the community, so = chairs >> don't have to. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> (2) Remote attendance >>>=20 >>> Nobody at the boardroom table will remember to say their name before >> they speak. That's OK, as long as they say it once. Regular = participants who >> happen to be remote will usually recognize others by voice. Everyone = else will >> have a bit of a hard time. >>>=20 >>> That's OK by me - I don't think we need to bend over backwards to = make >> in-room interactions too difficult for the sake of remote = participants, few of >> whom actually do actively participate in the meeting. I wish there = was a way >> to make in-room and remote participation similarly effective, but I = don't know >> of one. If I have to pick, I want to optimize for those folks who = actually show >> up in the room. >>>=20 >>> (Yes, this is controversial, and I would not suggest this for an = IETF WG.) >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> (3) Meeting style >>>=20 >>> In general, there are too many presentations at RG meetings, and too = little >> discussion. Your duty as chairs is not to simply do a call for = presentations and >> then fill up the available meeting time with random presentation = requests as >> they come in. You are chairs because you care about the topic of your = RG and >> want to see certain outcomes happening. Use the meeting time you have >> towards that goal. Be ruthless. >>>=20 >>> This can mean no presentations at all. It can mean having a single, = carefully >> prepared presentation on a hard question, followed by a long = discussion. It >> can mean a series of related smaller presentations on a given topic, = followed >> by discussion. Do whatever furthers the goals you want to achieve. >>>=20 >>> I've been in too many RG meetings that filled 80% of their agenda = time with >> presentations, all of which ran long, leaving maybe 5% of the = effective time for >> any sort of group discussion. If your group needs this kind of = meeting at the >> moment , please consider if a Webex wouldn't be a more effective way = of >> making progress. There is no need to wait for a face-to-face = opportunity for >> these meetings, and wasting facetime on such meetings doesn't seem = like a >> great idea. >>>=20 >>> (There are RGs that operate more like academic workshops, i.e., the = NMRG >> at the moment. Much of the above doesn't really apply to them.) >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> I'm very interested in your feedback here. I have chatted with the = secretariat >> in London about whether the boardroom+classroom setup is possible to = try >> out in Honolulu (and I'm CC'in Stephanie so she remembers we chatted = about >> this, since it was Friday :-) >>>=20 >>> Once this is hashed out a bit more, I'd love for some RGs to try = this >> approach out and see if it works better for them. >>>=20 >>> Lars >>>=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Dclc mailing list > Dclc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/dclc --Apple-Mail=_7CDCFD34-1FA6-43B6-BB33-EC55691202A6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iD8DBQFT93lrbjEdbHIsm0MRAlcwAKDnZXaYRwRjs0DLUzCtRLjH3V4dlACfYMe/ A0IgIZN5BSTick/pNFVKEfY= =Gz0o -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 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with ESMTPS id 879681A8AAD for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 00:17:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.24.2.119 (EHLO nkgeml403-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BYO99686; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 15:17:12 +0800 (CST) Received: from NKGEML507-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.39]) by nkgeml403-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.34]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 15:17:03 +0800 From: Weixinpeng To: "Fred Baker (fred)" Thread-Topic: [Dclc] Increasing RG meeting effectiveness Thread-Index: AQHPtfpvcDdJ7MEJm0e0cbqb250HHZvYbsaAgAQAccD///aMAIAEhJHg Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 07:17:02 +0000 Message-ID: References: <16537E36-88DC-4C6C-A556-1F8EA8C66430@netapp.com> <30B5DC39-75B2-446C-89A2-4E783FC8E078@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.76.176] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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