From nobody Mon Oct 2 17:06:06 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E56B132D8A; Mon, 2 Oct 2017 17:05:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: detnet@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.63.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150698915901.30710.8543157042259035140@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2017 17:05:59 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-security-00.txt X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2017 00:05:59 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Deterministic Networking WG of the IETF. Title : Deterministic Networking (DetNet) Security Considerations Authors : Tal Mizrahi Ethan Grossman Andrew J. Hacker Subir Das John Dowdell Henrik Austad Kevin Stanton Norman Finn Filename : draft-ietf-detnet-security-00.txt Pages : 35 Date : 2017-09-29 Abstract: A deterministic network is one that can carry data flows for real- time applications with extremely low data loss rates and bounded latency. Deterministic networks have been successfully deployed in real-time operational technology (OT) applications for some years (for example [ARINC664P7]). However, such networks are typically isolated from external access, and thus the security threat from external attackers is low. IETF Deterministic Networking (DetNet) specifies a set of technologies that enable creation of deterministic networks on IP-based networks of potentially wide area (on the scale of a corporate network) potentially bringing the OT network into contact with Information Technology (IT) traffic and security threats that lie outside of a tightly controlled and bounded area (such as the internals of an aircraft). These DetNet technologies have not previously been deployed together on a wide area IP-based network, and thus can present security considerations that may be new to IP- based wide area network designers. This draft, intended for use by DetNet network designers, provides insight into these security considerations. In addition, this draft collects all security- related statements from the various DetNet drafts (Architecture, Use Cases, etc) into a single location Section 7. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-security/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-security-00 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-detnet-security-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Oct 4 22:30:44 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9189B133344 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2017 22:30:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5QblMhuIGQ1K for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2017 22:30:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com (mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com [67.231.144.242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C579F133209 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2017 22:30:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0045961.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id v955UWsO026577 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2017 22:30:39 -0700 Received: from dlb-xchpw03.dolby.net (dcd-outbound.dolby.com [67.216.187.124]) by mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2ddejp00ck-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 04 Oct 2017 22:30:39 -0700 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) by DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Wed, 4 Oct 2017 22:30:37 -0700 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) by DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Wed, 4 Oct 2017 22:30:37 -0700 From: "Grossman, Ethan A." To: DetNet WG Thread-Topic: DetNet Security Draft - Update on Scope of Next Revision Thread-Index: AdM9mrjx/lqOzYZLTjqtU6Bi8P4Tbw== Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2017 05:30:37 +0000 Message-ID: <7c3713029e6c4f6680b7b91e10c0707a@DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.233.7.60] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-10-05_03:, , signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] DetNet Security Draft - Update on Scope of Next Revision X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2017 05:30:42 -0000 Hi All, At our most recent Security Design Team meeting we agreed that for the next= revision we would focus on items #1 and #5 below, deferring the others for= future revisions. If anyone has any interest in contributing material for = the deferred items, please let us know.=20 Best, Ethan. -----Original Message----- From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Grossman, Ethan = A. Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 10:22 AM To: Lou Berger ; DetNet WG Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-sdt-detnet-security-01 Thanks Lou,=20 Yes/support.=20 On behalf of the DetNet Security Design Team, we are pleased and excited ab= out achieving workgroup adoption, and we look forward to input from the bro= ader DetNet community. Below is our current list of items which we would li= ke to address next in the draft - if anyone has additional suggestions or w= ould like to help with the next release of the draft, which we are planning= for IETF 100, please reply.=20 1) We need to make another pass through every section to clean up loose end= s, unify the writing style and flesh out some of the statements. 2) Given that the Data Plane has been basically established, we need to ext= end the draft to address these specifics (e.g. implied by use of IPv6 and/o= r MPLS-PW). 3) We believe it would be helpful to establish solid requirements before we= can expect external reviewers to review this draft, so our intent is to ta= ke the various use case statements in the appendix and turn them into more = formal statement of requirements that a reviewer could measure our draft ag= ainst. 4) We need to review and improve our threat model to reduce our chances of = being blind-sided by threats we haven't addressed. =20 5) The current structure of the document has some "unusual" things about it= , for example the section about use cases in which there are statements tha= t are phrased as questions (like "does the threat attack the timely arrival= of packets?") - we need to come up with a better way to phrase this inform= ation. Best, Ethan Grossman DetNet Security Draft editor -----Original Message----- From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lou Berger Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 5:14 AM To: DetNet WG Cc: DetNet Chairs Subject: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-sdt-detnet-security-01 All, This is start of a two week poll on making draft-sdt-detnet-security-01 a w= orking group document. Please send email to the list indicating "yes/suppor= t" or "no/do not support". If indicating no, please state your reservation= s with the document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you= 'd like to see addressed once the document is a WG document. The poll ends Sep 26. Thanks, Lou (and Pat) _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Tue Oct 10 10:14:40 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 767E113460F for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 10:14:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.739 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.739 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_OBFUSCATE_05_10=0.26, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=broadcom.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04prznhzpCZ9 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 10:14:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x22a.google.com (mail-qt0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C95F134636 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 10:12:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id 8so7650429qtv.1 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 10:12:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=bULoGbxhqyeUt4cgZ/GSe8KdRTNDzPBZfVpZx1sahls=; b=diSuTwDqzRb7Ef+F9V5yyz7NzubZIBH79FnEw17/qdLSkIHuFxv91DUoPBkmZzbrYb 2GxIU4kK69OvUh1x6kQg71yIyVkbHKS4cJslNsK1z//V1GnW39dqIUOm2WP0n7tyQPLI DngTAzJjS8p/a7ncyLwWrG0k5FA2KrlZHZIwk= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=bULoGbxhqyeUt4cgZ/GSe8KdRTNDzPBZfVpZx1sahls=; b=FT/rKdkWym13h5/4HfDcKrbprBxO33nz7GWQYILYJvbY1I0an6y8UEnrsTTAq6OBHc fWsLGFjWX2z+lO3MMFIvU1pidUJZMC7AhA+CkwVMU+2OAgxvR04KrDwM5+4B3CRz2UbW 6/HU0UtWu2ttWsyg7bBydtX3NAS0nXfYSHgTESV/nDpjKGnTf0fcqgKUW2g9o8OgFl0M HESuGJ9MNxYb0Dbo4uUJHMtJuCONAU92WpxM3BKAojTlrKZgwJQuZozDhZ1ePxrNL9RA 83LmbPpFdqDaI9OxRvIcQPg9Y2vyuxwVZ7OT8CB5IhVAIcjTePulSB+1HpGVdg2Dp7tl G+lQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaX28rrzP/WQ9wt4PmRzdxSaDikErItSQvdfKw6yc4qFw8UBzckM vD2sHsTjBnpvh8xLRwDyeAx29N3tOqjXibNZjQqGrkJ1 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AOwi7QAx4ROhjIMrJgvXeNFT03mL660skUYvHvKaSY/gCc/8yMR7HfEJj+0qh6iPXEp5+2t7SvAU2BiU8zifQgUSR+Y= X-Received: by 10.55.36.74 with SMTP id w71mr15229828qkg.260.1507655526089; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 10:12:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.82.11 with HTTP; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 10:12:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CDB7E0@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com> References: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CDB7E0@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com> From: Pat Thaler Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2017 10:12:05 -0700 Message-ID: To: detnet@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a11450b3613bff2055b34680a" Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Fwd: Regarding IPR on draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2017 17:14:38 -0000 --001a11450b3613bff2055b34680a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Forwarding Norm's response to the list ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Norman Finn Date: Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 9:28 AM Subject: RE: Regarding IPR on draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol To: Pat Thaler No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft -- Norm ------------------------------ *From:* Pat Thaler [pat.thaler@broadcom.com] *Sent:* Thursday, September 28, 2017 1:36 PM *To:* Norman Finn *Subject:* Fwd: Regarding IPR on draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol You are the only author who hasn't responded to the IPR call. Once you respond on the thread, I'll be able to start the adoption call ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Pat Thaler Date: Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 10:45 AM Subject: Regarding IPR on draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol To: Lou Berger Cc: Jouni , detnet@ietf.org, Stewart Bryant < stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, Loa Andersson Authors, Contributors, WG, As part of the preparation for WG Adoption Call: Are you aware of any IPR that applies to drafts identified above? Please state either: "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft" or "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft" If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3669, 5378 and 8179 for more details)? If yes to the above, please state either: "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules" or "No, the IPR has not been disclosed" If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think appropriate. If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the above by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are aware of any relevant IPR. This document will not advance to the next stage until a response has been received from each author and listed contributor. NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS MESSAGE'S TO LINES. If you are on the WG email list or attend WG meetings but are not listed as an author or contributor, we remind you of your obligations under the IETF IPR rules which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are aware of IPR of others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from participating in any contribution or discussion related to your undisclosed IPR. For more information, please see the RFCs listed above and http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty. Thank you, DetNet WG Chairs PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in your response. --001a11450b3613bff2055b34680a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Forwarding Norm's response to the list
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Norman Finn <norman.finn@mail01.huawei.com>
Date: Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 9:28 AM
Subject: RE: Regarding IPR on d= raft-dt-detnet-dp-sol
To: Pat Thaler <pat.thaler@broadcom.com>


No, I'm not aware of any=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0that applies to this draft

-- Norm
From: Pat Thaler [pat.thaler@broadc= om.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2017 1:36 PM
To: Norman Finn
Subject: Fwd: Regarding IPR on draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol

You are the only author who hasn't responded to the IP= R call. Once you respond on the thread, I'll be able to start the adopt= ion call

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Pat Thaler <pat.thaler@broad= com.com>
Date: Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 10:45 AM
Subject: Regarding IPR on draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol
To: Lou Berger <lb= erger@labn.net>
Cc: Jouni <j= ouni.nospam@gmail.com>, detnet@ietf.org, S= tewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>


Authors, Contributors, WG,

As part of the preparation for WG Adoption Call:

Are you aware of any=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0that applies to drafts identified = above?

Please state either:

"No, I'm not aware of any=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0that applies to this= draft"
or
"Yes, I'm aware of=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0that applies to this draft&= quot;

If so, has this=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0been disclosed in compliance with IETF= =C2=A0I= PR=C2=A0rules
(see RFCs 3669, 5378 and 8179 for more details)?

If yes to the above, please state either:

"Yes, the=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0has been disclosed in compliance with IE= TF=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0rules"
or
"No, the=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0has not been disclosed"

If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think
appropriate.

If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer t= he
above by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you ar= e
aware of any relevant=C2=A0IPR. This document will not advance to the= next
stage until a response has been received from each author and listed<= /span>
contributor. NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS MESSAGE&= #39;S
TO LINES.

If you are on the WG email list or attend WG meetings but are not lis= ted
as an author or contributor, we remind you of your obligations under<= /span>
the IETF=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0rules which encourages you to notify the IETF = if you are
aware of=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0of others on an IETF contribution, or to refra= in from
participating in any contribution or discussion related to your
undisclosed=C2=A0IPR. For more information, please see the RFCs liste= d above
and
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/ies= g/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty.

Thank you,
DetNet WG Chairs

PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in your
response.



--001a11450b3613bff2055b34680a-- From nobody Tue Oct 10 10:28:58 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B41DB13452B for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 10:27:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=broadcom.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v2-NNEgkgIhe for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 10:27:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x234.google.com (mail-qt0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E61671342E2 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 10:27:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x234.google.com with SMTP id k31so18147226qta.6 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 10:27:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=cpMN7YszXjcJoQni18t1W37uGDFJLxci4nwWGJW/FBs=; b=GwCOeQvAQKVfyKjtUsDHx6BCHuGjrCz634o/+PzrjpPnN/kYrv30cR1svHxCaaoB/G FaoH+HiHS7yeMGRd8RZcp5jDn+2ntXbtuft6mZm6YmxT4wdnSVVJN9sAaSqgvMG3SGmk gIGWeT6t/wac+rTaapP+0eGcvqSiz8U0WJFBQ= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=cpMN7YszXjcJoQni18t1W37uGDFJLxci4nwWGJW/FBs=; b=XxiHwWVLutiSWlvaqEsdGNz92trB/5a0Ln/Tpw8qwpm1qfAMqrwj5gZ3ZBV7WKqp+R dftRgc6d3W5N9NutdA8CR5k2MH7z1cALEh+U1dEF9krb16fdWV+F5MQXSKA5TBC+W8er xYl3xc6N0K8U1bj2co+8KHLsHXMHxiC4KxCboPxx1lCFBo9QTidwRbe489RQ9pKM2uL5 wZ9kRTk5dCEDzEMShBE6ewsV/250t1tlWOlU6wZRF8auyzfyKRy+ROZRKDso4F0T7+Dk rMtLLL0E73GREvlmDumjgAKlCfoQLZsbV5ZuIv03xfm+PcFuqtj1FihaIpOCZqPXCf07 B8+g== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaUTb9voGYwE50HlnHt0JOS863wkCh+XKKROElO24ZGg5q9grlLm 0GuO9Ocyr6ySiCCrtggNYcOP9XK4EkuWaPTvDCrhNGnp5Wo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AOwi7QB1haf2trWuD4877Y3iqFidrNpYf8PggIZ7iooFLUYNt4D6Amk9GNDShNuXaKyVBA0Nenk+9ff6XviWl4dt0Is= X-Received: by 10.200.56.193 with SMTP id g1mr18244060qtc.67.1507656450854; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 10:27:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.82.11 with HTTP; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 10:27:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Pat Thaler Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2017 10:27:30 -0700 Message-ID: To: detnet@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a11408b36327795055b349f92" Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2017 17:27:35 -0000 --001a11408b36327795055b349f92 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" All, This is start of a two week poll on making draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol a working group document. Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd like to see addressed once the document is a WG document. Please remember that working group adoption is the start of the WG's work on the draft, not the end of it. This is not a typical adoption call in so far as that the document has captured open issues that have previously been raised by the WG and are expected to be resolved through normal WG process as the document progresses. The poll ends October 24 Thanks, Pat and Lou, --001a11408b36327795055b349f92 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
All,

This is start of a two week poll on making
draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol=C2=A0a= =C2=A0working=C2=A0group=C2= =A0document. Please
send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or= "no/do not
support".=C2=A0 If indicating no, please state your reserv= ations with the
document.=C2=A0 If yes, please also feel free to provide comment= s you'd
like to see addressed once the document is a WG document.
Please remember that working group adoption is the start of= the=C2=A0
WG's work on the draft, not the end of it.=C2=A0This is not a typical=C2= =A0
ado= ption=C2=A0call i= n so far as that the document has captured open=C2=A0
issues that have previously = been raised by the WG and are=C2=A0
expected to be resolved through normal WG proc= ess as the=C2=A0
document progresses.

The poll ends October 24

Thanks,

Pat and Lou,
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d=austad-us.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=a6CBkLE+oA0ZQO3j7uWHwnTTcDNMdc6XGJDtF7uyu5Q=; b=lQM1fuOCVeUsewqEYqI41Bicxjf/acPwqz+hpMfZIJ/DxxM8Ecijs7r6x3tQRmNmXa v9owi2/2Yysi9FYf3pTXeKHwkNSFWJfrUu1lrXK6oUoMyqrbsrgAf+2voCBbLNhRaotd id1IKM4JvaYfjvtonAfgSZJdPwCYYycQHQBp1dMv0zvTm0qcYvCOeU5fXU7O5DMtAWVk gcf8oU+RhD2XGlwRnqZeNc2MkIpTn2Si/m/bdfvjn1IW0MBLGZWWjLhutEDT5q9G6R72 kj0saj0j3ADMLiBcdPuGbH37elKCj+oMqb714bUVxEUOkvmsK+Aaol/m4L0RwAuPbeej ARXA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=a6CBkLE+oA0ZQO3j7uWHwnTTcDNMdc6XGJDtF7uyu5Q=; b=HFOAO1ksjzeXGafDZVbCWD7TZZY/0HzvCNLwpH83yHLM77ZmxssMoLpg1CePklzdhN mg8gGKokU/C4zlfqJFdOkNspsgv4zoK5A2U13koNk19GBo0tdRO8EHV03vhoijC1OpI4 7/2F0BU1iHRn9neLLRn3algvsumYbwRFXRaHkgei3SnVwrv3MGKW52IO1Tibzm48oHeq Cx/l/EMdj5Gaup4C12pHBlPRYKK1XfE3bRK3anfOCqH8LRaUz2UBN01lcaVBP3/f7bl3 fKpPntg2i653+SW2FSuwHe0urJq5itTkrUQ/0GNxxLJqHpT8vMJqHs6XVsH0Jbm+aOyn 98PQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaUFaQRKicO9ABXKvG47UlBGnzpychgKknuZBRFQ79oKpyfzySkC B3AzEDxw01bs6eJb2f35LT7xm5etmyG263WJQK9Amw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AOwi7QBJwrOQwydVf9qyPL/sUOuC7sOyBv5TfpKEam9JCmvklMHmqzPYaAgYA4skrw+0YtL2GRYpCTzHr2QjKCUHd7c= X-Received: by 10.200.26.37 with SMTP id v34mr2771752qtj.1.1507657766298; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 10:49:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.97.183 with HTTP; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 10:49:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [51.175.50.162] In-Reply-To: References: From: Henrik Austad Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2017 19:49:25 +0200 Message-ID: To: Pat Thaler Cc: DetNet WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2017 17:49:30 -0000 Yes, I support workgroup adoption. -Henrik On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 7:27 PM, Pat Thaler wrote: > All, > > This is start of a two week poll on making > draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol a working group document. Please > send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not > support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the > document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd > like to see addressed once the document is a WG document. > > Please remember that working group adoption is the start of the > WG's work on the draft, not the end of it. This is not a typical > adoption call in so far as that the document has captured open > issues that have previously been raised by the WG and are > expected to be resolved through normal WG process as the > document progresses. > > The poll ends October 24 > > Thanks, > > Pat and Lou, > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > -- Henrik Austad From nobody Tue Oct 10 10:57:13 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD94E13462A for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 10:57:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.619 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.619 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o_2eiovLqXKB for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 10:57:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com (mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com [67.231.144.242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49EDD134616 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 10:57:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0045961.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id v9AHuOo5021086 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 10:57:08 -0700 Received: from dlb-xchpw03.dolby.net (dcd-outbound.dolby.com [67.216.187.124]) by mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2dh31yg07x-9 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 10:57:08 -0700 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) by DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 10:56:39 -0700 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) by DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 10:56:39 -0700 From: "Grossman, Ethan A." To: "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol Thread-Index: AQHTQe1DxZneMm0yT06FseQq9kOxmKLdXjFS Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2017 17:56:39 +0000 Message-ID: <1507658198810.2894@dolby.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.233.7.60] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_15076581988102894dolbycom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-10-10_06:, , signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2017 17:57:12 -0000 --_000_15076581988102894dolbycom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ?yes/support Ethan. ________________________________ From: detnet on behalf of Pat Thaler Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 10:27 AM To: detnet@ietf.org Subject: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol All, This is start of a two week poll on making draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol a working group document. Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd like to see addressed once the document is a WG document. Please remember that working group adoption is the start of the WG's work on the draft, not the end of it. This is not a typical adoption call in so far as that the document has captured open issues that have previously been raised by the WG and are expected to be resolved through normal WG process as the document progresses. The poll ends October 24 Thanks, Pat and Lou, --_000_15076581988102894dolbycom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

​yes/support

Ethan.

From: detnet <detnet-bou= nces@ietf.org> on behalf of Pat Thaler <pat.thaler@broadcom.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 10:27 AM
To: detnet@ietf.org
Subject: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol
 
All,

This is start of a two week poll on making=
draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol a = working group document. Please
send email to the list indicating "ye= s/support" or "no/do not
support".  If indicating no, ple= ase state your reservations with the
document.  If yes, please also feel f= ree to provide comments you'd
like to see addressed once the document is= a WG document.

Please remember that working group adoption is the start of the <= /div>
WG's work on the draft, not the end of it. This is not a typical 
adoption call in so far as th= at the document has captured open 
issues that have p= reviously been raised by the WG and are 
expected to be res= olved through normal WG process as the 
document progresse= s.

The poll ends October 24

Thanks,

Pat and Lou,
--_000_15076581988102894dolbycom_-- From nobody Tue Oct 10 11:03:12 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93A5B134629 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 11:03:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.219 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.219 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tW0kIPE1sBkq for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 11:03:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrg11-dlp.huawei.com (lhrrg11-dlp.huawei.com [194.213.3.61]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 504C013466C for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 11:02:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.65 (EHLO DFWPML706-CHM.exmail.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.65]) by lhrrg11-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BJW37484; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 19:02:14 +0100 (BST) Received: from DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com ([169.254.1.20]) by DFWPML706-CHM.exmail.huawei.com ([10.124.31.210]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 11:02:06 -0700 From: Norman Finn To: Stewart Bryant , Pat Thaler , Lou Berger , Jouni , Loa Andersson , Jiangyuanlong , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bal=E1zs_Varga_A?= , =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=E1nos_Farkas?= , CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO , Tal Mizrahi CC: "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Regarding IPR on draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol Thread-Index: AQHTN3f1l9DbJxn2WE6l6xjNfKlh9aLddLYW Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2017 18:02:03 +0000 Message-ID: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CDBA43@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com> References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.18.4.35] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CDBA43DFWPML704CHMexmai_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020205.59DD0B27.01E2, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.1.20, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: c08869348d657f849c671a0550e4f793 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] Regarding IPR on draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2017 18:03:11 -0000 --_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CDBA43DFWPML704CHMexmai_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I can't find Pat's original request in my inbox. Sorry. No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft -- Norm ________________________________ From: Stewart Bryant [stewart.bryant@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2017 3:03 AM To: Pat Thaler; Lou Berger; Jouni; Loa Andersson; Jiangyuanlong; Norman Fin= n; Bal=E1zs Varga A; J=E1nos Farkas; CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO; Tal Mizra= hi Cc: detnet@ietf.org Subject: Re: Regarding IPR on draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol I don't know of any IPR introduced to the IETF through this document. - Stewart On 26/09/2017 18:53, Pat Thaler wrote: Resending with all the authors added to the To line. On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 10:45 AM, Pat Thaler > wrote: Authors, Contributors, WG, As part of the preparation for WG Adoption Call: Are you aware of any IPR that applies to drafts identified above? Please state either: "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft" or "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft" If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3669, 5378 and 8179 for more details)? If yes to the above, please state either: "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules" or "No, the IPR has not been disclosed" If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think appropriate. If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the above by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are aware of any relevant IPR. This document will not advance to the next stage until a response has been received from each author and listed contributor. NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS MESSAGE'S TO LINES. If you are on the WG email list or attend WG meetings but are not listed as an author or contributor, we remind you of your obligations under the IETF IPR rules which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are aware of IPR of others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from participating in any contribution or discussion related to your undisclosed IPR. For more information, please see the RFCs listed above and http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty. Thank you, DetNet WG Chairs PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in your response. --_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CDBA43DFWPML704CHMexmai_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I can't f= ind Pat's original request in my inbox.  Sorry.

No, I'm not aware of any IPR that a= pplies to this draft

-- Norm
From: Stewart Bryant [stewart.bryant@gmai= l.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2017 3:03 AM
To: Pat Thaler; Lou Berger; Jouni; Loa Andersson; Jiangyuanlong; Nor= man Finn; Bal=E1zs Varga A; J=E1nos Farkas; CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO; Ta= l Mizrahi
Cc: detnet@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Regarding IPR on draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol

I don't know of any IPR introduced to the IETF through this document.

- Stewart


On 26/09/2017 18:53, Pat Thaler wrote:
Resending with all the authors added to the To line.

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 10:45 AM, Pat Thaler <pat.thaler= @broadcom.com> wrote:

Authors, Contributors, WG,

As part of the preparation for WG Adoption Call:
Are you aware of any IPR that applies to drafts identified above?

Please state either:

"No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft"
or
"Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft"
If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules
(see RFCs 3669, 5378 and 8179 for more details)?
If yes to the above, please state either:

"Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules"
or
"No, the IPR has not been disclosed"

If you answer no, please provide any additional details yo= u think
appropriate.

If you are listed as a document author or contributor plea= se answer the
above by responding to this email regardless of whether or= not you are
aware of any relevant IPR. This document will not advance to the next
stage until a response has been received from each author = and listed
contributor. NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN TH= IS MESSAGE'S
TO LINES.

If you are on the WG email list or attend WG meetings but = are not listed
as an author or contributor, we remind you of your obligat= ions under
the IETF IPR rules which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are=
aware of IPR of others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from
participating in any contribution or discussion related to= your
undisclosed IPR. For more information, please see the RFCs listed above
and
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/i= esg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty.

Thank you,
DetNet WG Chairs

PS Please include all listed in the headers of this messag= e in your
response.



--_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CDBA43DFWPML704CHMexmai_-- From nobody Tue Oct 10 11:05:01 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D66D1345B7 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 11:04:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.219 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.219 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rnZh2RABgpxJ for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 11:04:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrg12-dlp.huawei.com (lhrrg12-dlp.huawei.com [194.213.3.62]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 06DBC132D49 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 11:04:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.65 (EHLO DFWPML706-CHM.exmail.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.65]) by lhrrg12-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BKZ76764; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 19:04:55 +0100 (BST) Received: from DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com ([169.254.1.20]) by DFWPML706-CHM.exmail.huawei.com ([10.124.31.210]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 11:04:52 -0700 From: Norman Finn To: Pat Thaler , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol Thread-Index: AQHTQe1baB1t4UjG7k+zw6XAnKmaLaLdYKbf Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2017 18:04:51 +0000 Message-ID: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CDBA6A@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.18.4.35] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CDBA6ADFWPML704CHMexmai_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020201.59DD0BC7.032E, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.1.20, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 61acb47aa81c4791c43d3978425dae13 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2017 18:05:00 -0000 --_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CDBA6ADFWPML704CHMexmai_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable yes/support -- Norm ________________________________ From: detnet [detnet-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Pat Thaler [pat.thaler@= broadcom.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 10:27 AM To: detnet@ietf.org Subject: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol All, This is start of a two week poll on making draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol a working group document. Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd like to see addressed once the document is a WG document. Please remember that working group adoption is the start of the WG's work on the draft, not the end of it. This is not a typical adoption call in so far as that the document has captured open issues that have previously been raised by the WG and are expected to be resolved through normal WG process as the document progresses. The poll ends October 24 Thanks, Pat and Lou, --_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CDBA6ADFWPML704CHMexmai_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
yes/support

-- Norm

From: detnet [detnet-bounces@ietf.org] on= behalf of Pat Thaler [pat.thaler@broadcom.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 10:27 AM
To: detnet@ietf.org
Subject: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol

All,

This is start of a two week poll on making=
draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol a = working group document. Please
send email to the list indicating "ye= s/support" or "no/do not
support".  If indicating no, ple= ase state your reservations with the
document.  If yes, please also feel f= ree to provide comments you'd
like to see addressed once the document is= a WG document.

Please remember that working group adoption is the start of the <= /div>
WG's work on the draft, not the end of it. This is not a typical 
adoption call in so far as th= at the document has captured open 
issues that have p= reviously been raised by the WG and are 
expected to be res= olved through normal WG process as the 
document progresse= s.

The poll ends October 24

Thanks,

Pat and Lou,
--_000_3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CDBA6ADFWPML704CHMexmai_-- From nobody Tue Oct 10 11:14:44 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76600134660 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 11:14:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mjOWB9JJzMaE for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 11:14:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x231.google.com (mail-wm0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D4B42134634 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 11:14:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x231.google.com with SMTP id k4so7769202wmc.1 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 11:14:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language; bh=wnFQ855mYnksJ1jueoJythj9s9e49a8QDHOAZu64LfQ=; b=YUvA4/QwRihaO6wAZLYn6otgcXYXPA/VAb+6tKmLDRkpRM3hcFzCtGuAga5UkYnNAU JBRK9LYboy9gZk701pb70hwePVXk3r0w/PaNc70XHweJAGj4VO7uT3kxI50OQ9nDuMzf TYTQ5Q7Wpw+A7SEE3lWXcVPxJxz8DBalVmvTj9WckHPAw2J85isndNltV4/LsujvzFpS lJ5amDvuyhH7IiW5fGGfrn1HI0qR3B9KeArG8aVgJ2++tam/Ul2kt41Mu0Z+LBMvnEpS qE5MS59JMkjiHA+JCa9Otvw0U7a9uv/ri6hRHQuI/JuN1+ct4ej+QZxQ6BmU2C9uTYwc SuzA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=wnFQ855mYnksJ1jueoJythj9s9e49a8QDHOAZu64LfQ=; b=iTxwBR2dzVFzal9QAtxrTtele2X74ZxbihgEhm/SmDeNCQvIweweX0g5s5kdUubLhQ oalsYeODBGnJBTjaUVhX0ZksL8l6P3cORo42xq5sf9p+jLuD59oXia5csxRWzo/RPvNh WuIHjsKolMHPEUsdLnnjOTi2SHo1vEXDf93d8qS/H920gktvBJr6pG2OvASt1XM9m6f2 E9vZK0qN1jGC+4GXolihyMkbJmHCIT/YlA3S7GZhhclATX5nF/ysaohlgz6UEBGmumkC 1q5xCpbym5K0JcS2ZR8nCKUEEIeDsbJ7cME3zrO21iExhS/H+izilqeefuLp/QbXyetj 02hg== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaVS1WLrRMnAjZnQBBiHsoEkCppFdZWOXA06SV0lIt8xWZgCjRBS Jk/pknryLtJs8YPw0xldMCEA5oxl X-Google-Smtp-Source: AOwi7QBkJIcvcN82WLLGMuEEEaar9SYarKhUH52GjwMpfbs+hZjioB449lIYgIT5X0WjpJbsaQlEQA== X-Received: by 10.28.147.209 with SMTP id v200mr10800356wmd.123.1507659276063; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 11:14:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.126] (host213-123-124-182.in-addr.btopenworld.com. [213.123.124.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h185sm24332127wma.19.2017.10.10.11.14.35 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 10 Oct 2017 11:14:35 -0700 (PDT) To: Pat Thaler , detnet@ietf.org References: From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2017 19:14:35 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------9B05A78BDC78689C6CAF5E30" Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2017 18:14:42 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9B05A78BDC78689C6CAF5E30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I would prefer that we resolved some of the fundamental issues before adoption, and do not see why we are adopting the process proposed. I am not sure the WGC have properly explained the need to rush to the point of a WG draft, and think that this needs to be articulated. That said, if we really must adopt the draft at this stage, I am pleased to see that it has the issues clearly marked, and look forward to their resolution. - Stewart On 10/10/2017 18:27, Pat Thaler wrote: > All, > > This is start of a two week poll on making > draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol a workinggroup document. Please > send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not > support".  If indicating no, please state your reservations with the > document.  If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd > like to see addressed once the document is a WG document. > > Please remember that working group adoption is the start of the > WG's work on the draft, not the end of it. This is not a typical > adoption call in so far as that the document has captured open > issues that have previously been raised by the WG and are > expected to be resolved through normal WG process as the > document progresses. > > The poll ends October 24 > > Thanks, > > Pat and Lou, > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet --------------9B05A78BDC78689C6CAF5E30 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

I would prefer that we resolved some of the fundamental issues before adoption, and do not see why we are adopting the process proposed.

I am not sure the WGC have properly explained the need to rush to the point of a WG draft, and think that this needs to be articulated.

That said, if we really must adopt the draft at this stage, I am pleased to see that it has the issues clearly marked, and look forward to their resolution.

- Stewart


On 10/10/2017 18:27, Pat Thaler wrote:
All,

This is start of a two week poll on making
draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol a working group document. Please
send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not
support".  If indicating no, please state your reservations with the
document.  If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd
like to see addressed once the document is a WG document.

Please remember that working group adoption is the start of the 
WG's work on the draft, not the end of it. This is not a typical 
adoption call in so far as that the document has captured open 
issues that have previously been raised by the WG and are 
expected to be resolved through normal WG process as the 
document progresses.

The poll ends October 24

Thanks,

Pat and Lou,


_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

--------------9B05A78BDC78689C6CAF5E30-- From nobody Tue Oct 10 11:28:33 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C04B134693 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 11:28:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cTsMOLBiQ0Ko for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 11:28:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usplmg20.ericsson.net (usplmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C918F134688 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 11:28:29 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c618062d-b7bff70000004f0a-5d-59dd2a42743b Received: from EUSAAHC005.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.87]) by usplmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 54.29.20234.24A2DD95; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 22:14:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC005.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.87]) with mapi id 14.03.0352.000; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 14:28:28 -0400 From: David Sinicrope To: Pat Thaler , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol Thread-Index: AQHTQe1QMsNQ0+trPUy/sMe8+y3CP6LdqlAA Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2017 18:28:25 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.27.0.171004 x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.11] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_A3F2614FC13D4CE495E6DD7F378CBE76ericssoncom_" 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Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E099133344 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 13:03:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kg4vGuO4Pvn6 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 13:03:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x233.google.com (mail-oi0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with 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Malis" Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2017 16:02:40 -0400 Message-ID: To: Pat Thaler Cc: detnet WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403043547645692c3055b36cb79" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2017 20:03:04 -0000 --f403043547645692c3055b36cb79 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pat, Like Stewart, I would like to see resolution of the open issues identified in the current revision of the draft, but I don=E2=80=99t see any reason wh= y that can=E2=80=99t be done as a WG draft. Driving the resolution process should = be first thing done by the appointed primary editor. Cheers, Andy On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 1:27 PM, Pat Thaler wrote= : > All, > > This is start of a two week poll on making > draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol a working group document. Please > send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not > support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the > document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd > like to see addressed once the document is a WG document. > > Please remember that working group adoption is the start of the > WG's work on the draft, not the end of it. This is not a typical > adoption call in so far as that the document has captured open > issues that have previously been raised by the WG and are > expected to be resolved through normal WG process as the > document progresses. > > The poll ends October 24 > > Thanks, > > Pat and Lou, > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > --f403043547645692c3055b36cb79 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Pat,

Like Stewart, I would like to see = resolution of the open issues identified in the current revision of the dra= ft, but I don=E2=80=99t see any reason why that can=E2=80=99t be done as a = WG draft. Driving the resolution process should be first thing done by the = appointed primary editor.=C2=A0

Cheers,
= Andy


On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 1:27 PM, Pat Thaler <pat.thale= r@broadcom.com> wrote:
All,

This is start of a two week poll on making
draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol=C2=A0a=C2=A0= working=C2=A0group=C2=A0document. Please
send email to the l= ist indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not
support".=C2=A0= If indicating no, please state your reservations with the
document.=C2=A0 If y= es, please also feel free to provide comments you'd
like to see addressed on= ce the document is a WG document.

Please remember= that working group adoption is the start of the=C2=A0
WG's w= ork on the draft, not the end of it.=C2=A0This is not a typical=C2=A0
adoption=C2=A0call in so far as that the document ha= s captured open=C2=A0
issues that have previously been raised by the WG and are=C2= =A0
exp= ected to be resolved through normal WG process as the=C2=A0
document progresses.

The poll ends October 24

Thanks,

Pat and Lou,

_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

--f403043547645692c3055b36cb79-- From nobody Tue Oct 10 23:46:28 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A3381331FF for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 23:46:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e9l2dATcT_ef for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 23:46:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D77431320D8 for 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Thaler , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol Thread-Index: AQHTQ3Dj9GYX3/gXi0KTkMUvY08wSw== Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2017 15:43:46 +0000 Message-ID: <0B45BB98-A4AB-45AB-9335-29142793EE46@cisco.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.27.0.171010 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.228.216.25] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_0B45BB98A4AB45AB933529142793EE46ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2017 15:43:51 -0000 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-2.62 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.62 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AXSinbCnCpdu for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2017 11:29:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com (mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com [67.231.144.242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2FFA9126DD9 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2017 11:20:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0045961.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id v9CIKGAS029797 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2017 11:20:47 -0700 Received: from dlb-xchpw04.dolby.net (dcd-outbound.dolby.com [67.216.187.124]) by mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2djdhc80cg-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2017 11:20:47 -0700 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) by DLB-XCHPW04.dolby.net (10.233.7.4) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Thu, 12 Oct 2017 11:20:45 -0700 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) by DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Thu, 12 Oct 2017 11:20:45 -0700 From: "Grossman, Ethan A." To: DetNet WG Thread-Topic: DetNet Security Team Meeting Notes 12Oct17 Thread-Index: AdNDdoUFuG+hJHiqRG6VmM5h8qkBBQAD3g3Q Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2017 18:20:45 +0000 Message-ID: <5607c3cb590a41ae9a8d90c0393f17c4@DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net> References: <068acbfa99134f6198a245ec48ca3499@DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net> In-Reply-To: <068acbfa99134f6198a245ec48ca3499@DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.233.7.60] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_5607c3cb590a41ae9a8d90c0393f17c4DLBXCHPW03dolbynet_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-10-12_09:, , signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] FW: DetNet Security Team Meeting Notes 12Oct17 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2017 18:29:20 -0000 --_000_5607c3cb590a41ae9a8d90c0393f17c4DLBXCHPW03dolbynet_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Since the DetNet Security draft is now a WG draft, here is an update. Any i= nput from anyone is welcome. Ethan. -------------------------- 1) Henrik reviewed RFC 3552 (Guidelines for Writing RFC Text on Securi= ty Considerations). He concluded that we have basically covered the require= d material in our draft, however our document organization is somewhat diff= erent from what they prescribe. However, ours is a whole draft, not just a = section, and theirs seems to be more oriented toward web-based applications= , so it isn't a perfect fit for DetNet anyway. For now the plan is to leave= our current organization unless we get strong guidance otherwise. 2) RFC 3552 also suggests that if one is referencing specific technolo= gies like HMAC that one should be specific, for example the specific types = of hashes to be used. Our sense is that DetNet is intended to be a scalable= set of tools, and we would not be prescriptive about such things, however = we should include some statement about this, pointing out that differing us= e cases will require differing levels of encryption, for example, trading o= ff CPU usage and latency for higher security. 3) Question: should TSN-specific technologies be listed as mitigations= ? For example the 802.1Qbv time aware shaper can be used as a mitigation ag= ainst Delay attacks. It seems like we should mention things like that someh= ow, but how do they fit into our draft structure? --------------------------- --_000_5607c3cb590a41ae9a8d90c0393f17c4DLBXCHPW03dolbynet_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Since the DetNet Security draft is now a WG draft, h= ere is an update. Any input from anyone is welcome.

Ethan.

--------------------------

1)      Henrik reviewed RFC 3552 (Guidelines for Writing RF= C Text on Security Considerations). He concluded that we have basically cov= ered the required material in our draft, however our document organization = is somewhat different from what they prescribe. However, ours is a whole draft, not just a section, and th= eirs seems to be more oriented toward web-based applications, so it isnR= 17;t a perfect fit for DetNet anyway. For now the plan is to leave our curr= ent organization unless we get strong guidance otherwise.

2)      RFC 3552 also suggests that if one is referencing s= pecific technologies like HMAC that one should be specific, for example the= specific types of hashes to be used. Our sense is that DetNet is intended = to be a scalable set of tools, and we would not be prescriptive about such things, however we should include = some statement about this, pointing out that differing use cases will requi= re differing levels of encryption, for example, trading off CPU usage and l= atency for higher security.

3)      Question: should TSN-specific technologies be liste= d as mitigations? For example the 802.1Qbv time aware shaper can be used as= a mitigation against Delay attacks. It seems like we should mention things= like that somehow, but how do they fit into our draft structure?

---------------------------

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MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: ericsson.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=balazs.a.varga@ericsson.com; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_VI1PR07MB1005ADCA31B5EF0E3F89311EAC4F0VI1PR07MB1005eurp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 16 Oct 2017 10:56:12.9538 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR07MB1007 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA03Se0jTURQHcO5+e/xcrq5L8eBjxEDCxWZmhViZBUZRQfhPKmEN/aWibraf iRrEsKa2GG2QpcvUSrQWilrhqwcNI9OJQ3wsSZw4SJmbmNPQgeT2W+B/n/M998A9l0sSwkZO BJmvKKFUCnmhmMtn16f3SKTZekfG4VcvJYneP8/YKeh8S8sm6wrK5J/MoQrzSylVXPINfl7D potTbIgr09V1E2rUHKtFJAn4KFg2lFrEJ4V4EMHktJ3FFEMIet19XF/BxjoCFvW1HKZTy4Lh rQEuUywgWFp3E1oURHJxKqzVzHN9DsUHoWp5Cvm8HyeBSzOBmPw09A//DFgG4zUGns9sHAMN 7UP+WQG+BnV2O9d3P4SjYb490RcTOBxmHE0snwFjaPk4RjAOg6WFbQ7jA9DdvMJjHA3jTQ8R YyMPbA4lYxl8MLgC+WXwmEYDs40InmquMpZAj9USOJMENYbvgTMFMDdazfPtDniEs9OoClwi CtzLZi7TWOTAnLnTPy3EFLS1a/xGOAu8X9QE8ygRMDvxAOlRrHHXcoyVYLK0IqP/LULgR72D zeQysNU+5jI+BK0vnARjKdRtm9m782bEM6EwmqLpotwjCTJKlZ9N00qFTEGVdKOdX/P1vVfa i946z5gRJpE4WPBO68gQcuSldHmRGQFJiEMFssqdSJAjL6+gVMrrqtuFFG1GkSRbHC5I+WxN F+JceQlVQFHFlOp/l0UGRaiRSTezFnI8eST2WAcZFTMYWrav4q9LdEE0/fp35ap05qZIt3Vu Ve180mXvIlYs8SJ938a9b9Zf0fzKyfoEj2ag0ePJjLRd7A+7s3e6Ie3TmOf5pfW2+zHGU9V7 DFmz1rKzjnRt8N0TPZ23mlCW3r2UmubtmiQfcWzhUxXaN84OMZvOk8dLCBUt/wc+0+/sMQMA AA== Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Information models (service, flow, configuration) X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2017 10:56:39 -0000 --_000_VI1PR07MB1005ADCA31B5EF0E3F89311EAC4F0VI1PR07MB1005eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, For the last IETF meeting the two individual information model drafts Have been merged. https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-farkas-detnet-flow-information-model-01.txt There were good discussions during the meeting about the configuration aspects. The info model authors have tried to sort out the relation between the service / flow / configuration info model with the following thoughts: 1, Service / Flow models require a higher level abstraction. They are focusing on how to serv DetNet flows. 2, Configuration required for e2e service delivery and depends heavily on device capabilities and technology (e.g., IPv6, MPLS, etc.). There are concerns regarding configuration, e.g., we are not yet there to know in detail all the configuration for DetNet scenarios (e.g., L2/L3 QoS, TSN sub-net with DetNet domain, Signaling, etc.). As a conclusion modeling related topics could be separated to 2 drafts - flow/service information model (continue with current merged draft) - configuration model (first step towards YANG model) That means to start a separate document to deal with configuration model related aspects. Such a draft would point towards the YANG model. Any comment, views and suggestions are welcome. Cheers Bala'zs --_000_VI1PR07MB1005ADCA31B5EF0E3F89311EAC4F0VI1PR07MB1005eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

 

For the last IETF meeting the two individual informa= tion model drafts

Have been merged.

https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-farkas-detn= et-flow-information-model-01.txt

There were good discussions during the meeting about= the configuration

aspects.

 

The info model authors have tried to sort out the re= lation between the

service / flow / configuration info model with the f= ollowing thoughts:

1, Service / Flow models require a higher level abst= raction. They are

focusing on how to serv DetNet flows.

2, Configuration required for e2e service delivery a= nd depends heavily

on device capabilities and technology (e.g., IPv6, M= PLS, etc.).

 

There are concerns regarding configuration, e.g., we= are not yet there

to know in detail all the configuration for DetNet s= cenarios (e.g.,
L2/L3 QoS, TSN sub-net with DetNet domain, Signaling, etc.).

 

As a conclusion modeling related topics could be sep= arated to 2 drafts

- flow/service information model (continue with curr= ent merged draft)

- configuration model (first step towards YANG model= )

 

That means to start a separate document to deal with= configuration

model related aspects. Such a draft would point towa= rds the YANG model.

 

Any comment, views and suggestions are welcome.=

 

Cheers

Bala’zs

 

 

--_000_VI1PR07MB1005ADCA31B5EF0E3F89311EAC4F0VI1PR07MB1005eurp_-- From nobody Mon Oct 16 13:20:02 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75B74124B18 for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2017 13:20:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2B3FVYFKDOG3 for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2017 13:19:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x22c.google.com (mail-lf0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7FD1F133057 for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2017 13:19:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id n69so18370767lfn.2 for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2017 13:19:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=Ew4UTOgwTfJb3Jdh48+g+30u38+kDjqwTdzN6kmGq+4=; b=SDVsQeuB5FCkneywU2isuyFF/+HdMeFYngaVCdkGMmpewGFt8Fz7pynz3eC+3iiICJ m6Vk0blz5Yz3cTJWYidO8FflAlScfO3ZGeP4LNTbnfcBRv4Y/0NZv16Q618R+ffHvT1t aZlm+2cjk9BXBvKV5m5emcEEoB7+aZl50Q2Xql6bPbw0z1qY6LbZ0XHKNy0s6TDTobrB Aw/rWidYSS1igrS3XKsjLsuVGiwtZqcBhCY2uMmgZvjERDRTat8i5ErHi3ahXzvRIA97 eZ3me65C/n166Gfv4bCS9R7q9C/TjXKIPzgiF2fgR1vr+gzFI1Pi4vBZ7G7iLXhQTt4/ TbfQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=Ew4UTOgwTfJb3Jdh48+g+30u38+kDjqwTdzN6kmGq+4=; b=lYyVlPFrY5wIpidd0hatH1M0qhD4y4uG14BCkzd3SiGRmt5hID22FEC9Iao0zhocR4 fBkeLyCQaua1TEArIGJmIuZYrDZlI5YXGPYR6iy1SDcvDxjXRSFRlCM1ItIcNopS2yv2 unz9c33VActrLyWuQy+1fMQaB2Df5jGnzZsY2lKqjd9c7eHCcaCSm/mmdlzSnCyXTBbn yD+T+4nFDW+6V22MXVKW7nohQwt6bu+nEHi8hXgF7TAF41ierjSWmpMy604Bnr1aH9UW hzLkqIo1LtAYp5UvHsYmKAmpIrH4agpwwqJQkskVLDGYBwnch6EIRUW8jjgXojh7ot+I u1Kw== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaUkFeIzFfVsJTFkA0JqGMOJKxGzDTwv0pss6dDzxyUdXiUQZOYA j1sqOCI0V/ojovhm6AGBP6uKDjNI X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+RguhMTDEXIVZoU3lwD5/TXjz2ENX7gnuYDDjFTpXVVGccCco5ASHVvra5SbfmpUHUDabRoFA== X-Received: by 10.25.210.80 with SMTP id j77mr3379593lfg.250.1508185197693; Mon, 16 Oct 2017 13:19:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jounis-imac.home ([83.150.126.201]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x84sm2117940lje.47.2017.10.16.13.19.56 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 16 Oct 2017 13:19:57 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: Jouni In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2017 23:19:52 +0300 Cc: detnet@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <7F5E666E-74B2-4EA6-A48E-22963E1EB841@gmail.com> References: To: Pat Thaler X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2017 20:20:01 -0000 Yes/support. > On 10 Oct 2017, at 20:27, Pat Thaler wrote: > > All, > > This is start of a two week poll on making > draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol a working group document. Please > send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not > support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the > document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd > like to see addressed once the document is a WG document. > > Please remember that working group adoption is the start of the > WG's work on the draft, not the end of it. This is not a typical > adoption call in so far as that the document has captured open > issues that have previously been raised by the WG and are > expected to be resolved through normal WG process as the > document progresses. > > The poll ends October 24 > > Thanks, > > Pat and Lou, > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Mon Oct 16 14:03:37 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC1EB13457D for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2017 14:03:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=it-uc3m-es.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uOrDp0239lZz for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2017 14:03:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x22f.google.com (mail-oi0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 16B75132D45 for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2017 14:03:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id w197so27331113oif.6 for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2017 14:03:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=it-uc3m-es.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=16JkGloMjdQEMcy1sZ4f7Td6M4N6y5uRHBPSbXu34k0=; b=meEgyPWgWHdh1AwE5e//7BbmWRagRvkxk7DS1K0ntiR52VTH8JzSTf3RWTLxO867Hg VWLCQxX4M1iTVHsSmT+4CWJSa5Qvm/+woAPqsFW93HRGivvZrdywdcuKWML78/21vaxg z7MvNOSo31hl0VMLJfjInDmS+nfiTqii1H/KI0dHftH5j5SEFw8BYQzA8ndNIFKrQfwO vKYIYK4NCqQHEL7C6kvTNKUlnhVnMy0wqdGjjomdswuuMdlG+khmIu7xMUbSCNZF1/i8 EJxtULZAv0nKAax1Koy68zHPkPIWhdqVSoCKCdnGv6uPFlMNZoPRalsxiL75sHqzqVtn /Kmw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=16JkGloMjdQEMcy1sZ4f7Td6M4N6y5uRHBPSbXu34k0=; b=Mw9Vm+WL5BA7hGK8JPTHmZ9pObMOoipZp/nER6ABNVn+vr0GyGG5b066tnEjQQsOrz 6k4xI/utj+GOGz1DgzHPZVoPOf/hB+2FRuCRrsqmkxZA8GYBbu5OOHQGaOFol+LTyMe3 mxv42DVUOz7hS3e0wigk/LMgJvmdeM3CFlbET+QW95bi9IryY8YqiGH5qkXrK1WG1Qwu djROWITBHWaYLd8aQTbKDOQq0imFr+BVQx6V9ax3deLVgJCxnTNSvQ3fVmv3fPL/lNAC LfAryawu0R9E5WZt9IOHidXdsR1xbJBtHW/HVdB3AX8q9rfwjvjxiICVZiWUw3fm281M rfeQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaVHUkz8zQJxcQVFijwmpojwBDoClXeL02P8xVVFhKT93cH9H4Ir n1SNYPwmMxV58j/hJB8VvkEvx+rZ7ITtxFCtml/dLA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+TD0RlUPmKJsoK7hoHp4CilCkamVLnRUY7CoBP3XB6otrOtC1qbnbiNG4xCRsPt9uyL4tdc4WOhmYJiQ22O2xE= X-Received: by 10.202.199.213 with SMTP id x204mr5722959oif.238.1508187812136; Mon, 16 Oct 2017 14:03:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.168.31.195 with HTTP; Mon, 16 Oct 2017 14:03:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <7F5E666E-74B2-4EA6-A48E-22963E1EB841@gmail.com> References: <7F5E666E-74B2-4EA6-A48E-22963E1EB841@gmail.com> From: CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2017 23:03:11 +0200 Message-ID: To: Jouni Cc: Pat Thaler , DetNet WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1134e7c6cc2816055bb05625" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2017 21:03:36 -0000 --001a1134e7c6cc2816055bb05625 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Yes/support. Carlos 2017-10-16 22:19 GMT+02:00 Jouni : > Yes/support. > > > > On 10 Oct 2017, at 20:27, Pat Thaler wrote: > > > > All, > > > > This is start of a two week poll on making > > draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol a working group document. Please > > send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not > > support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the > > document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd > > like to see addressed once the document is a WG document. > > > > Please remember that working group adoption is the start of the > > WG's work on the draft, not the end of it. This is not a typical > > adoption call in so far as that the document has captured open > > issues that have previously been raised by the WG and are > > expected to be resolved through normal WG process as the > > document progresses. > > > > The poll ends October 24 > > > > Thanks, > > > > Pat and Lou, > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > --001a1134e7c6cc2816055bb05625 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes/support.

Carlos

2017-10-16 22:19 GMT+02:0= 0 Jouni <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>:
Yes/support.


> On 10 Oct 2017, at 20:27, Pat Thaler <pat.thaler@BROADCOM.COM> wrote:
>
> All,
>
> This is start of a two week poll on making
> draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol a working group document. Please
> send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/= do not
> support".=C2=A0 If indicating no, please state your reservations = with the
> document.=C2=A0 If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you&= #39;d
> like to see addressed once the document is a WG document.
>
> Please remember that working group adoption is the start of the
> WG's work on the draft, not the end of it. This is not a typical > adoption call in so far as that the document has captured open
> issues that have previously been raised by the WG and are
> expected to be resolved through normal WG process as the
> document progresses.
>
> The poll ends October 24
>
> Thanks,
>
> Pat and Lou,
> __________________= _____________________________
> detnet mailing list
> detnet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

--001a1134e7c6cc2816055bb05625-- From nobody Mon Oct 16 18:32:24 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C85D13295C for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2017 18:32:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OHr61zZBV3fh for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2017 18:32:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxhk.zte.com.cn (mxhk.zte.com.cn [63.217.80.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 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d=mail-udp-cl.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=s/HppMhmk8TCYwcRTZCHqdKCYi5Vdv26Nbx7PvQBE54=; b=YXM2sN1Nhbyalh16AbL39aQon6TQc+CoToGu3prKAZncSyTd8AQW+OOCeM+zA9nrUz jzrpUU1qAQb4s2Uc69tlq7kadYC1nUadTwbvq2q39/Ia2lIxiDvslH6S8nMPOm5g8wSo HBfqzklg41pkZmEc5T2L3Ky8Uvjtz+LeM1E3MmUdRs2GpwLJXGMQhaAvPyOQgHBeTREl 0vqoPutktSWYy9xUdjQsNkJD65z7CRosw4xuc81NhhSez0HaCqpgNNg+9EiEZPnP//w1 zsVvEk6CyNMwfHyKSziTyYfVnQvo3+n1COrkcBZRBWnKV2OvJU7Z72P8mRuBE48xEti1 Df8g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=s/HppMhmk8TCYwcRTZCHqdKCYi5Vdv26Nbx7PvQBE54=; b=jd9+rLgjCiktKjp+jEep5nlHW7dIRLUY8NvW+W7HC5/oEH02xqE0qisVHo400Dop9c 42+zWKp361MwClfjQ6ZascEAs87qahtV110vbGFfyz028O0IlAyKqPfmp58q5vSOYY2K iKKbF8nnflOVGAq4MLhhavmjYq6vPGt3b4LUWlcisAFn40MvDUbJyJ8Gnt6EOdbNZQ1l 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=?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiBSZTogV0cgYWRvcHRpb24gcG9sbCBkcmFm?= =?utf-8?q?t-dt-detnet-dp-sol?= X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 01:43:34 -0000 --94eb2c04f7ba0fed77055bb44013 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c04f7ba0fed75055bb44012" --94eb2c04f7ba0fed75055bb44012 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes/Support 2017-10-16 22:32 GMT-03:00 : > Yes/Support. > > > > > > > =E9=BB=84=E5=85=89=E5=B9=B3 huangguangping > > > =E9=A2=84=E7=A0=94=E6=A0=87=E5=87=86=E9=83=A8/=E6=9C=89=E7=BA=BF=E7=A0=94= =E7=A9=B6=E9=99=A2/=E6=9C=89=E7=BA=BF=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E7=BB=8F=E8=90=A5= =E9=83=A8 Standard Preresearch Dept./Wireline Product Operation > Division > > > > =E5=8D=97=E4=BA=AC=E5=B8=82=E9=9B=A8=E8=8A=B1=E5=8C=BA=E8=BD=AF=E4=BB=B6= =E5=A4=A7=E9=81=9350=E5=8F=B7=E4=B8=AD=E5=85=B4=E9=80=9A=E8=AE=AF1=E5=8F=B7= =E6=A5=BC > R&D Building, ZTE Corporation Software Road No.50, > Yuhua District, Nanjing, P..R.China, 210012 > M: +86 13770311052 <+86%20137%207031%201052> > E: huang.guangping@zte.com.cn > www.zte.com.cn > =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6 > *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* ; > *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* ; > *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* ; ; > *=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A*2017=E5=B9=B410=E6=9C=8817=E6=97=A5 05:03 > *=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A**Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-de= tnet-dp-sol* > > > Yes/support. > > Carlos > > 2017-10-16 22:19 GMT+02:00 Jouni : > >> Yes/support. >> >> >> > On 10 Oct 2017, at 20:27, Pat Thaler wrote: >> > >> > All, >> > >> > This is start of a two week poll on making >> > draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol a working group document. Please >> > send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not >> > support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the >> > document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd >> > like to see addressed once the document is a WG document. >> > >> > Please remember that working group adoption is the start of the >> > WG's work on the draft, not the end of it. This is not a typical >> > adoption call in so far as that the document has captured open >> > issues that have previously been raised by the WG and are >> > expected to be resolved through normal WG process as the >> > document progresses. >> > >> > The poll ends October 24 >> > >> > Thanks, >> > >> > Pat and Lou, >> > _______________________________________________ >> > detnet mailing list >> > detnet@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > --=20 DIEGO DUJOVNE Profesor Asociado Escuela de Inform=C3=A1tica y Telecomunicaciones Facultad de Ingenier=C3=ADa - Universidad Diego Portales - Chile www.ingenieria.udp.cl (56 2) 676 8125 --94eb2c04f7ba0fed75055bb44012 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes/Support

2017-10-16 22:32 GMT-03:00 <huang.guangping@zt= e.com.cn>:

Yes/Support.


=





<= span class=3D"m_-1134799361773641781signedit" id=3D"m_-1134799361773641781s= ign_name">=E9=BB=84=E5=85=89=E5=B9=B3 huangguangping


=E9= =A2=84=E7=A0=94=E6=A0=87=E5=87=86=E9=83=A8/=E6=9C=89=E7=BA=BF=E7=A0=94=E7= =A9=B6=E9=99=A2/=E6=9C=89=E7=BA=BF=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E7=BB=8F=E8=90=A5=E9= =83=A8 Standard Pr= eresearch Dept./Wireline Product Operation Division


<= /td>

=E5=8D= =97=E4=BA=AC=E5=B8=82=E9=9B=A8=E8=8A=B1=E5=8C=BA=E8=BD=AF=E4=BB=B6=E5=A4=A7= =E9=81=9350=E5=8F=B7=E4=B8=AD=E5=85=B4=E9=80=9A=E8=AE=AF1=E5=8F=B7=E6=A5=BC= =C2=A0
R&D= Building, ZTE Corporation Software Road No.50,
Yuhua District= , Nanjing, P..R.China, 210012=C2=A0
M: +86 13770311052
E: huang.guangping@zte.com.cn
www.zte.com.cn
<= /span>
=E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6
=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A <cjbc@it.uc3m.es>;
<= strong>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>;=
=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A &= lt;detnet@ietf.org= >; <pat.thaler@broadcom.com>;
=E6=97=A5 = =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A2017=E5=B9=B410=E6=9C=8817=E6=97=A5 05:03=
=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9ARe: [Detnet] WG adoption poll= draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol


Yes/support.

Carlos

2017-10-16 22:19 GMT+02:00 Joun= i <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>:
Yes/support.


> On 10 Oct 2017, at 20:27, P= at Thaler <= pat.thaler@BROADCOM.COM> wrote:
>
> All,
>
= > This is start of a two week poll on making
> draft-dt-detnet-dp= -sol a working group document. Please
> send email to the list indic= ating "yes/support" or "no/do not
> support".=C2= =A0 If indicating no, please state your reservations with the
> docu= ment.=C2=A0 If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd
= > like to see addressed once the document is a WG document.
> > Please remember that working group adoption is the start of the
= > WG's work on the draft, not the end of it. This is not a typical > adoption call in so far as that the document has captured open
= > issues that have previously been raised by the WG and are
> exp= ected to be resolved through normal WG process as the
> document pro= gresses.
>
> The poll ends October 24
>
> Thank= s,
>
> Pat and Lou,
> ___________= ____________________________________
> detnet mailing list
= > detnet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/d= etnet

_______________________________________________
= detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/= listinfo/detnet



______________________= _________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet



--
=
DIEGO DUJOVNE
Profesor Asociado
Escuela de= Inform=C3=A1tica y Telecomunicaciones
Facultad de Ingenier=C3=ADa - Uni= versidad Diego Portales - Chile
www.ingenieria.udp.cl
(56 2) 676 8125
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X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eplB53-aN0tf for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 05:05:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pipi.pi.nu (pipi.pi.nu [83.168.239.141]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7E6513305E for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 05:05:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.6.17.52] (unknown [60.247.111.66]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: loa@pi.nu) by pipi.pi.nu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D9813180155A; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 14:05:25 +0200 (CEST) To: Pat Thaler , "detnet@ietf.org" References: From: Loa Andersson Message-ID: Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2017 14:05:20 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2017 12:05:31 -0000 Working Group, co-authors, After talking to a number or people I've re-reviewed that the Packet Replication and Elimination Function (PREF). It seems that there is a strong relationship between router architecture and the possibility to fully perform this function. Replication is fine with any architecture. However, if you have an architecture with multiple line cards and with packet processing on the ingress, performing elimination seems to be very hard, and would require major changes to the routers. As long as you have a one chip router both replication and elimination is possible. Since a substantial part of all routers that would be in scope for DetNet networks are router with multiple line cards where the packet processing is done on the ingress cards, the elimination function seems to be a major problem. We have said that we can do elimination on the out port, but it seems that most routers do not have the required packet processing on the egress line cards. /Loa PS Please note that I don't think this is a comment blocking the adoption as a wg doc. On 2017-10-11 16:11, Rodney Cummings wrote: > yes/support > > *From:*detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Pat Thaler > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 10, 2017 12:28 PM > *To:* detnet@ietf.org > *Subject:* [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol > > All, > > This is start of a two week poll on making > draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol a working group document. Please > send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not > support".  If indicating no, please state your reservations with the > document.  If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd > like to see addressed once the document is a WG document. > > Please remember that working group adoption is the start of the > > WG's work on the draft, not the end of it. This is not a typical > > adoption call in so far as that the document has captured open > > issues that have previously been raised by the WG and are > > expected to be resolved through normal WG process as the > > document progresses. > > > The poll ends October 24 > > Thanks, > > Pat and Lou, > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > -- Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu Senior MPLS Expert Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 From nobody Wed Oct 18 05:45:17 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97A2A12421A for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 05:45:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.52 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.52 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, 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(xch-rcd-002.cisco.com [173.37.102.12]) by alln-core-12.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v9ICjDAm027852 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 18 Oct 2017 12:45:13 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-RCD-002.cisco.com (173.37.102.12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 07:45:13 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 07:45:12 -0500 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Loa Andersson , Pat Thaler , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol Thread-Index: AQHTSAleVZse6KcExkWTodIQqFTgHKLph6SA Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2017 12:45:12 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Wed, 18 Oct 2017 12:44:56 +0000 Message-ID: <86a421bf8a574698847cd368da8ff4bb@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: 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UExTIEV4cGVydA0KSHVhd2VpIFRlY2hub2xvZ2llcyAoY29uc3VsdGFudCkgICAgIHBob25lOiAr NDYgNzM5IDgxIDIxIDY0DQoNCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fDQpkZXRuZXQgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQpkZXRuZXRAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCmh0dHBzOi8v d3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vZGV0bmV0DQo= From nobody Wed Oct 18 06:47:00 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 097461321A1 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 06:46:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hEAd2U5CkOT1 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 06:46:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pipi.pi.nu (pipi.pi.nu [83.168.239.141]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 192661270AB for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 06:46:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.6.11.27] (unknown [60.247.111.66]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: loa@pi.nu) by pipi.pi.nu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7A522180155A; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 15:46:55 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Loa Andersson X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (15A421) In-Reply-To: <86a421bf8a574698847cd368da8ff4bb@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2017 21:46:50 +0800 Cc: Pat Thaler , "detnet@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <86a421bf8a574698847cd368da8ff4bb@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2017 13:46:59 -0000 Pasca), Are saying that in a DetNet network we=E2=80=99ll kick ALL packets into the s= low path in all routers that do elimination? /Loa Sent from my iPhone > On 18 Oct 2017, at 20:45, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) w= rote: >=20 > Hi Loa: >=20 > Arguably, elimination and reordering belong to an upper layer - like a lay= er 4-, that can be run either at the detnet end systems, or at very specific= locations in the network where an excursion to L-4 and back down is permit= ted. We had text that showed that replication could be done at a lower layer= , but that must have been edited out the architecture, I could not dig it. I= 'm full speed preparing a draft on that matter (to be sent to TSVWG), hopefu= lly I'll push a 00 early next week. >=20 > All the best, >=20 > Pascal >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Loa Andersson > Sent: mercredi 18 octobre 2017 14:05 > To: Pat Thaler ; detnet@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol >=20 > Working Group, co-authors, >=20 > After talking to a number or people I've re-reviewed that the Packet Repli= cation and Elimination Function (PREF). It seems that there is a strong rel= ationship between router architecture and the possibility to fully perform t= his function. Replication is fine with any architecture. >=20 > However, if you have an architecture with multiple line cards and with pac= ket processing on the ingress, performing elimination seems to be very hard,= and would require major changes to the routers. >=20 > As long as you have a one chip router both replication and elimination is p= ossible. >=20 > Since a substantial part of all routers that would be in scope for DetNet n= etworks are router with multiple line cards where the packet processing is d= one on the ingress cards, the elimination function seems to be a major probl= em. >=20 > We have said that we can do elimination on the out port, but it seems that= most routers do not have the required packet processing on the egress line c= ards. >=20 > /Loa >=20 > PS >=20 > Please note that I don't think this is a comment blocking the adoption as a= wg doc. >=20 >> On 2017-10-11 16:11, Rodney Cummings wrote: >> yes/support >>=20 >> *From:*detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Pat=20 >> Thaler >> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 10, 2017 12:28 PM >> *To:* detnet@ietf.org >> *Subject:* [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol >>=20 >> All, >>=20 >> This is start of a two week poll on making draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol a=20 >> working group document. Please send email to the list indicating=20 >> "yes/support" or "no/do not support". If indicating no, please state=20 >> your reservations with the document. If yes, please also feel free to=20= >> provide comments you'd like to see addressed once the document is a WG=20= >> document. >>=20 >> Please remember that working group adoption is the start of the >>=20 >> WG's work on the draft, not the end of it. This is not a typical >>=20 >> adoption call in so far as that the document has captured open >>=20 >> issues that have previously been raised by the WG and are >>=20 >> expected to be resolved through normal WG process as the >>=20 >> document progresses. >>=20 >>=20 >> The poll ends October 24 >>=20 >> Thanks, >>=20 >> Pat and Lou, >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >>=20 >=20 > --=20 >=20 >=20 > Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu > Senior MPLS Expert > Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Wed Oct 18 07:03:55 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 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d="scan'208";a="18182899" Received: from rcdn-core-1.cisco.com ([173.37.93.152]) by alln-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 18 Oct 2017 14:03:45 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-005.cisco.com (xch-aln-005.cisco.com [173.36.7.15]) by rcdn-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v9IE3iZS011973 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 18 Oct 2017 14:03:44 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-ALN-005.cisco.com (173.36.7.15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 09:03:44 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 09:03:44 -0500 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Loa Andersson CC: Pat Thaler , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol Thread-Index: AQHTSAleVZse6KcExkWTodIQqFTgHKLph6SAgABrMwD//6xlEA== Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2017 14:03:14 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Wed, 18 Oct 2017 14:02:39 +0000 Message-ID: <21ffc7e8b94e415aa5eb3e8eb8080db6@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <86a421bf8a574698847cd368da8ff4bb@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.22.4] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2017 14:03:52 -0000 SSBkbyBub3QgdGhpbmsgSSBzYWlkIHRoYXQgTG9hLiANCg0KRm9yIG9uZSB0aGluZywgc2xvdyBw YXRoIGlzIGFuIGltcGxlbWVudGF0aW9uIHRoaW5nIGFuZCBJIHdhcyBkaXNjdXNzaW5nIGxheWVy 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Pj4gDQo+PiANCj4+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fDQo+PiBkZXRuZXQgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+PiBkZXRuZXRAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4+IGh0dHBz Oi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vZGV0bmV0DQo+PiANCj4gDQo+IC0tDQo+ IA0KPiANCj4gTG9hIEFuZGVyc3NvbiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIGVtYWlsOiBsb2FA cGkubnUNCj4gU2VuaW9yIE1QTFMgRXhwZXJ0DQo+IEh1YXdlaSBUZWNobm9sb2dpZXMgKGNvbnN1 bHRhbnQpICAgICBwaG9uZTogKzQ2IDczOSA4MSAyMSA2NA0KPiANCj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gZGV0bmV0IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0K PiBkZXRuZXRAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5m by9kZXRuZXQNCg0K From nobody Wed Oct 18 23:58:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1779126DD9 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 23:58:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BgUHwHN_N9GN for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 23:58:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pipi.pi.nu (pipi.pi.nu [83.168.239.141]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1EEEB1321DC for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 23:58:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [79.138.211.133] (79.138.211.133.bredband.tre.se [79.138.211.133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: loa@pi.nu) by pipi.pi.nu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 93729180145E; Thu, 19 Oct 2017 08:58:21 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Loa Andersson X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (15A421) In-Reply-To: <21ffc7e8b94e415aa5eb3e8eb8080db6@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 14:58:17 +0800 Cc: Pat Thaler , "detnet@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <53A06B47-89E7-4FF7-8EAA-DF3DB3C3EAF7@pi.nu> References: <86a421bf8a574698847cd368da8ff4bb@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <21ffc7e8b94e415aa5eb3e8eb8080db6@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 06:58:27 -0000 Pascal , Sent from my iPhone > On 18 Oct 2017, at 22:03, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) w= rote: >=20 > I do not think I said that Loa.=20 >=20 > For one thing, slow path is an implementation thing and I was discussing l= ayers. And then what is put in slow path is another implementation decision.= =20 >=20 > Rather I said that the function belongs to a layer that should not be expe= cted in an intermediate router. IOW a basic DetNet Router would be implemen= ting the DetNet Transport Layer (which is not a Layer 4, confusing...) and w= ould not need to reorder or eliminate. >=20 > I'm looking at how the DetNet Service Layer is positioned vs. a traditiona= l transport layer, considering how the architecture can alleviate the issue t= hat you are raising. The architecture is more open than my words here, but I= think we need to restrict this function to DetNet End Systems and maybe Edg= e Routers that have a special excursion to L4, like a transport layer proxy i= mplementing a RED box.=20 >=20 > Does that make sense? I=E2=80=99m not sure. Both the architecture (e.g. Figure 1) and the problem s= tatement (section 3.5) clearly indicate that both replication and eliminatio= n are done =E2=80=9Cat several points=E2=80=9D, including in the core.=20 If we limit replication to the ingress and elimination to the egress this is= a simple 1+1 protection. I thought replication/elimination points were intr= oduced because 1+1 were not considered efficient enough. Also if we put all elimination in the egress =E2=80=9Cin a layer 4 function=E2= =80=9D we still don=E2=80=99t get around the problem. A egress node doing pa= cket processing on multiple line cards have to send ALL packets to the =E2=80= =9Clayer 4 function=E2=80=9D.=20 /Loa >=20 > Pascal >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Loa Andersson [mailto:loa@pi.nu]=20 > Sent: mercredi 18 octobre 2017 15:47 > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > Cc: Pat Thaler ; detnet@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol >=20 > Pasca), >=20 > Are saying that in a DetNet network we=E2=80=99ll kick ALL packets into th= e slow path in all routers that do elimination? >=20 > /Loa >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 >> On 18 Oct 2017, at 20:45, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) w= rote: >>=20 >> Hi Loa: >>=20 >> Arguably, elimination and reordering belong to an upper layer - like a la= yer 4-, that can be run either at the detnet end systems, or at very specifi= c locations in the network where an excursion to L-4 and back down is permi= tted. We had text that showed that replication could be done at a lower laye= r, but that must have been edited out the architecture, I could not dig it. I= 'm full speed preparing a draft on that matter (to be sent to TSVWG), hopefu= lly I'll push a 00 early next week. >>=20 >> All the best, >>=20 >> Pascal >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Loa=20 >> Andersson >> Sent: mercredi 18 octobre 2017 14:05 >> To: Pat Thaler ; detnet@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol >>=20 >> Working Group, co-authors, >>=20 >> After talking to a number or people I've re-reviewed that the Packet Repl= ication and Elimination Function (PREF). It seems that there is a strong re= lationship between router architecture and the possibility to fully perform t= his function. Replication is fine with any architecture. >>=20 >> However, if you have an architecture with multiple line cards and with pa= cket processing on the ingress, performing elimination seems to be very hard= , and would require major changes to the routers. >>=20 >> As long as you have a one chip router both replication and elimination is= possible. >>=20 >> Since a substantial part of all routers that would be in scope for DetNet= networks are router with multiple line cards where the packet processing is= done on the ingress cards, the elimination function seems to be a major pro= blem. >>=20 >> We have said that we can do elimination on the out port, but it seems tha= t most routers do not have the required packet processing on the egress line= cards. >>=20 >> /Loa >>=20 >> PS >>=20 >> Please note that I don't think this is a comment blocking the adoption as= a wg doc. >>=20 >>> On 2017-10-11 16:11, Rodney Cummings wrote: >>> yes/support >>>=20 >>> *From:*detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Pat=20 >>> Thaler >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 10, 2017 12:28 PM >>> *To:* detnet@ietf.org >>> *Subject:* [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol >>>=20 >>> All, >>>=20 >>> This is start of a two week poll on making draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol a=20 >>> working group document. Please send email to the list indicating=20 >>> "yes/support" or "no/do not support". If indicating no, please state=20= >>> your reservations with the document. If yes, please also feel free=20 >>> to provide comments you'd like to see addressed once the document is=20 >>> a WG document. >>>=20 >>> Please remember that working group adoption is the start of the >>>=20 >>> WG's work on the draft, not the end of it. This is not a typical >>>=20 >>> adoption call in so far as that the document has captured open >>>=20 >>> issues that have previously been raised by the WG and are >>>=20 >>> expected to be resolved through normal WG process as the >>>=20 >>> document progresses. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> The poll ends October 24 >>>=20 >>> Thanks, >>>=20 >>> Pat and Lou, >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> detnet mailing list >>> detnet@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >>>=20 >>=20 >> -- >>=20 >>=20 >> Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu >> Senior MPLS Expert >> Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >=20 From nobody Thu Oct 19 03:04:39 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD047133068 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2017 03:04:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.521 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.521 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0OS_0juzoguw for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2017 03:04:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.86.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 14490126CB6 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 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E=Sophos;i="5.43,400,1503360000"; d="scan'208";a="309663444" Received: from alln-core-4.cisco.com ([173.36.13.137]) by rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 19 Oct 2017 10:04:33 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-005.cisco.com (xch-rcd-005.cisco.com [173.37.102.15]) by alln-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v9JA4XL4016425 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 19 Oct 2017 10:04:33 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-RCD-005.cisco.com (173.37.102.15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Thu, 19 Oct 2017 05:04:32 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Thu, 19 Oct 2017 05:04:32 -0500 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Loa Andersson CC: Pat Thaler , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol Thread-Index: AQHTSAleVZse6KcExkWTodIQqFTgHKLph6SAgABrMwD//6xlEIABc8qA///Jj3A= Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 10:04:16 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 10:04:13 +0000 Message-ID: <8c4e984103f947c5b48d8adf96da33e6@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <86a421bf8a574698847cd368da8ff4bb@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <21ffc7e8b94e415aa5eb3e8eb8080db6@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <53A06B47-89E7-4FF7-8EAA-DF3DB3C3EAF7@pi.nu> In-Reply-To: <53A06B47-89E7-4FF7-8EAA-DF3DB3C3EAF7@pi.nu> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.228.216.15] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: 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Pj4+IGRldG5ldCBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4+PiBkZXRuZXRAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4+PiBodHRwczov L3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2RldG5ldA0KPj4+IA0KPj4gDQo+PiAtLQ0K Pj4gDQo+PiANCj4+IExvYSBBbmRlcnNzb24gICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICBlbWFpbDog bG9hQHBpLm51DQo+PiBTZW5pb3IgTVBMUyBFeHBlcnQNCj4+IEh1YXdlaSBUZWNobm9sb2dpZXMg KGNvbnN1bHRhbnQpICAgICBwaG9uZTogKzQ2IDczOSA4MSAyMSA2NA0KPj4gDQo+PiBfX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPj4gZGV0bmV0IG1haWxp bmcgbGlzdA0KPj4gZGV0bmV0QGlldGYub3JnDQo+PiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWls bWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2RldG5ldA0KPiANCg0K From nobody Thu Oct 19 08:19:11 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73291134944 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2017 08:19:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 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Malis" Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 11:18:46 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Cc: Loa Andersson , "detnet@ietf.org" , Pat Thaler Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113d259897c405055be7e0e8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 15:19:10 -0000 --001a113d259897c405055be7e0e8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pascal, Yes, end-to-end latency may suffer if in-order delivery reliability is more important, so that you buffer out-of-order packets until previous packets have arrived and can be delivered. There are various ways things can be tweaked depending on the relative importance of delivery and latency; if latency is more important than guaranteed delivery, then out-of-order packets can be dropped if they arrive after a later-in-the-sequence packet has already been delivered, and a simple =E2=80=9Clast packet delivered=E2= =80=9D counter per flow can also be used for duplicate elimination. As has been noted, this has to be done at a common processing point, unless multiple ingress line cards have shared memory for that counter. Cheers, Andy On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 6:04 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) < pthubert@cisco.com> wrote: > I agree Loa, this is where I stand too. > > The traffic from the line cards must converge to a point where enough > buffers are available to cope with the difference of latency over the > various paths. The end-to-end latency may suffer from having it. OTOH > having a point like that inside the network is necessary for Packet > Replication and Elimination, even more when wireless joins the party. It = is > also necessary to redistribute a DetNet flow over one or more outgoing TS= N > "circuits" that have different capabilities than the incoming ones. > > How that point is implemented may differ from a product to the next, but > that cannot always be done in line cards, for the reasons you point out, > but also for reasons of buffer capacity, mostly for the reordering featur= e. > > Cheers, > > Pascal > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Loa Andersson [mailto:loa@pi.nu] > Sent: jeudi 19 octobre 2017 08:58 > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > Cc: Pat Thaler ; detnet@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol > > Pascal , > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On 18 Oct 2017, at 22:03, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > wrote: > > > > I do not think I said that Loa. > > > > For one thing, slow path is an implementation thing and I was discussin= g > layers. And then what is put in slow path is another implementation > decision. > > > > Rather I said that the function belongs to a layer that should not be > expected in an intermediate router. IOW a basic DetNet Router would be > implementing the DetNet Transport Layer (which is not a Layer 4, > confusing...) and would not need to reorder or eliminate. > > > > I'm looking at how the DetNet Service Layer is positioned vs. a > traditional transport layer, considering how the architecture can allevia= te > the issue that you are raising. The architecture is more open than my wor= ds > here, but I think we need to restrict this function to DetNet End Systems > and maybe Edge Routers that have a special excursion to L4, like a > transport layer proxy implementing a RED box. > > > > Does that make sense? > > I=E2=80=99m not sure. Both the architecture (e.g. Figure 1) and the probl= em > statement (section 3.5) clearly indicate that both replication and > elimination are done =E2=80=9Cat several points=E2=80=9D, including in th= e core. > > If we limit replication to the ingress and elimination to the egress this > is a simple 1+1 protection. I thought replication/elimination points were > introduced because 1+1 were not considered efficient enough. > > Also if we put all elimination in the egress =E2=80=9Cin a layer 4 functi= on=E2=80=9D we > still don=E2=80=99t get around the problem. A egress node doing packet pr= ocessing > on multiple line cards have to send ALL packets to the =E2=80=9Clayer 4 f= unction=E2=80=9D. > > /Loa > > > > Pascal > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Loa Andersson [mailto:loa@pi.nu] > > Sent: mercredi 18 octobre 2017 15:47 > > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > > Cc: Pat Thaler ; detnet@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol > > > > Pasca), > > > > Are saying that in a DetNet network we=E2=80=99ll kick ALL packets into= the slow > path in all routers that do elimination? > > > > /Loa > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On 18 Oct 2017, at 20:45, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > wrote: > >> > >> Hi Loa: > >> > >> Arguably, elimination and reordering belong to an upper layer - like a > layer 4-, that can be run either at the detnet end systems, or at very > specific locations in the network where an excursion to L-4 and back dow= n > is permitted. We had text that showed that replication could be done at a > lower layer, but that must have been edited out the architecture, I could > not dig it. I'm full speed preparing a draft on that matter (to be sent t= o > TSVWG), hopefully I'll push a 00 early next week. > >> > >> All the best, > >> > >> Pascal > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Loa > >> Andersson > >> Sent: mercredi 18 octobre 2017 14:05 > >> To: Pat Thaler ; detnet@ietf.org > >> Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol > >> > >> Working Group, co-authors, > >> > >> After talking to a number or people I've re-reviewed that the Packet > Replication and Elimination Function (PREF). It seems that there is a > strong relationship between router architecture and the possibility to > fully perform this function. Replication is fine with any architecture. > >> > >> However, if you have an architecture with multiple line cards and with > packet processing on the ingress, performing elimination seems to be very > hard, and would require major changes to the routers. > >> > >> As long as you have a one chip router both replication and elimination > is possible. > >> > >> Since a substantial part of all routers that would be in scope for > DetNet networks are router with multiple line cards where the packet > processing is done on the ingress cards, the elimination function seems t= o > be a major problem. > >> > >> We have said that we can do elimination on the out port, but it seems > that most routers do not have the required packet processing on the egres= s > line cards. > >> > >> /Loa > >> > >> PS > >> > >> Please note that I don't think this is a comment blocking the adoption > as a wg doc. > >> > >>> On 2017-10-11 16:11, Rodney Cummings wrote: > >>> yes/support > >>> > >>> *From:*detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Pat > >>> Thaler > >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 10, 2017 12:28 PM > >>> *To:* detnet@ietf.org > >>> *Subject:* [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol > >>> > >>> All, > >>> > >>> This is start of a two week poll on making draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol a > >>> working group document. Please send email to the list indicating > >>> "yes/support" or "no/do not support". If indicating no, please > >>> state your reservations with the document. If yes, please also feel > >>> free to provide comments you'd like to see addressed once the > >>> document is a WG document. > >>> > >>> Please remember that working group adoption is the start of the > >>> > >>> WG's work on the draft, not the end of it. This is not a typical > >>> > >>> adoption call in so far as that the document has captured open > >>> > >>> issues that have previously been raised by the WG and are > >>> > >>> expected to be resolved through normal WG process as the > >>> > >>> document progresses. > >>> > >>> > >>> The poll ends October 24 > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> > >>> Pat and Lou, > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> detnet mailing list > >>> detnet@ietf.org > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > >>> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> > >> Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu > >> Senior MPLS Expert > >> Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> detnet mailing list > >> detnet@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > --001a113d259897c405055be7e0e8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Pascal,

Yes, end-to-end latency may suf= fer if in-order delivery reliability is more important, so that you buffer = out-of-order packets until previous packets have arrived and can be deliver= ed. There are various ways things can be tweaked depending on the relative = importance of delivery and latency; if latency is more important than guara= nteed delivery, then out-of-order packets can be dropped if they arrive aft= er a later-in-the-sequence packet has already been delivered, and a simple = =E2=80=9Clast packet delivered=E2=80=9D counter per flow can also be used f= or duplicate elimination. As has been noted, this has to be done at a commo= n processing point, unless multiple ingress line cards have shared memory f= or that counter.

Cheers,
Andy
=

O= n Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 6:04 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco= .com> wrote:
I agree Loa, t= his is where I stand too.

The traffic from the line cards must converge to a point where enough buffe= rs are available to cope with the difference of latency over the various pa= ths. The end-to-end latency may suffer from having it. OTOH having a point = like that inside the network is necessary for Packet Replication and Elimin= ation, even more when wireless joins the party. It is also necessary to red= istribute a DetNet flow over one or more outgoing TSN=C2=A0 "circuits&= quot;=C2=A0 that have different capabilities than the incoming ones.

How that point is implemented may differ from a product to the next, but th= at cannot always be done in line cards, for the reasons you point out, but = also for reasons of buffer capacity, mostly for the reordering feature.

Cheers,

Pascal


-----Original Message-----
From: Loa Andersson [mailto:loa@pi.nu]
Sent: jeudi 19 octobre 2017 = 08:58
To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pth= ubert@cisco.com>
Cc: Pat Thaler <pat.thaler@br= oadcom.com>; detnet@ietf.org<= br> Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol

Pascal ,

Sent from my iPhone

> On 18 Oct 2017, at 22:03, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> I do not think I said that Loa.
>
> For one thing, slow path is an implementation thing and I was discussi= ng layers. And then what is put in slow path is another implementation deci= sion.
>
> Rather I said that the function belongs to a layer that should not be = expected in an intermediate router. IOW a basic DetNet=C2=A0 Router would b= e implementing the DetNet Transport Layer (which is not a Layer 4, confusin= g...) and would not need to reorder or eliminate.
>
> I'm looking at how the DetNet Service Layer is positioned vs. a tr= aditional transport layer, considering how the architecture can alleviate t= he issue that you are raising. The architecture is more open than my words = here, but I think we need to restrict this function to DetNet End Systems a= nd maybe Edge Routers that have a special excursion to L4, like a transport= layer proxy implementing a RED box.
>
> Does that make sense?

I=E2=80=99m not sure. Both the architecture (e.g. Figure 1) and the problem= statement (section 3.5) clearly indicate that both replication and elimina= tion are done =E2=80=9Cat several points=E2=80=9D, including in the core.
If we limit replication to the ingress and elimination to the egress this i= s a simple 1+1 protection. I thought replication/elimination points were in= troduced because 1+1 were not considered efficient enough.

Also if we put all elimination in the egress =E2=80=9Cin a layer 4 function= =E2=80=9D we still don=E2=80=99t get around the problem. A egress node doin= g packet processing on multiple line cards have to send ALL packets to the = =E2=80=9Clayer 4 function=E2=80=9D.

/Loa
>
> Pascal
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Loa Andersson [mailto:loa@pi.nu= ]
> Sent: mercredi 18 octobre 2017 15:47
> To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>
> Cc: Pat Thaler <pat.thal= er@broadcom.com>; detnet@ietf.org=
> Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol
>
> Pasca),
>
> Are saying that in a DetNet network we=E2=80=99ll kick ALL packets int= o the slow path in all routers that do elimination?
>
> /Loa
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On 18 Oct 2017, at 20:45, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Loa:
>>
>> Arguably, elimination and reordering belong to an upper layer - li= ke a layer 4-, that can be run either at the detnet end systems, or at very= specific locations in the network where an excursion to L-4=C2=A0 and back= down is permitted. We had text that showed that replication could be done = at a lower layer, but that must have been edited out the architecture, I co= uld not dig it. I'm full speed preparing a draft on that matter (to be = sent to TSVWG), hopefully I'll push a 00 early next week.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Pascal
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: detnet [mailto:de= tnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Loa
>> Andersson
>> Sent: mercredi 18 octobre 2017 14:05
>> To: Pat Thaler <pat.= thaler@broadcom.com>; detnet@ietf= .org
>> Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol
>>
>> Working Group, co-authors,
>>
>> After talking to a number or people I've re-reviewed that the = Packet Replication and=C2=A0 Elimination Function (PREF). It seems that the= re is a strong relationship between router architecture and the possibility= to fully perform this function. Replication is fine with any architecture.=
>>
>> However, if you have an architecture with multiple line cards and = with packet processing on the ingress, performing elimination seems to be v= ery hard, and would require major changes to the routers.
>>
>> As long as you have a one chip router both replication and elimina= tion is possible.
>>
>> Since a substantial part of all routers that would be in scope for= DetNet networks are router with multiple line cards where the packet proce= ssing is done on the ingress cards, the elimination function seems to be a = major problem.
>>
>> We have said that we can do elimination on the out port, but it se= ems that most routers do not have the required packet processing on the egr= ess line cards.
>>
>> /Loa
>>
>> PS
>>
>> Please note that I don't think this is a comment blocking the = adoption as a wg doc.
>>
>>> On 2017-10-11 16:11, Rodney Cummings wrote:
>>> yes/support
>>>
>>> *From:*detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Pat
>>> Thaler
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 10, 2017 12:28 PM
>>> *To:* detnet@ietf.org >>> *Subject:* [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol >>>
>>> All,
>>>
>>> This is start of a two week poll on making draft-dt-detnet-dp-= sol a
>>> working group document. Please send email to the list indicati= ng
>>> "yes/support" or "no/do not support".=C2= =A0 If indicating no, please
>>> state your reservations with the document.=C2=A0 If yes, pleas= e also feel
>>> free to provide comments you'd like to see addressed once = the
>>> document is a WG document.
>>>
>>> Please remember that working group adoption is the start of th= e
>>>
>>> WG's work on the draft, not the end of it. This is not a t= ypical
>>>
>>> adoption call in so far as that the document has captured open=
>>>
>>> issues that have previously been raised by the WG and are
>>>
>>> expected to be resolved through normal WG process as the
>>>
>>> document progresses.
>>>
>>>
>>> The poll ends October 24
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Pat and Lou,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> detnet mailing list
>>> detnet@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinf= o/detnet
>>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>> Loa Andersson=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 email: loa@pi.= nu
>> Senior MPLS Expert
>> Huawei Technologies (consultant)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0phone: +46 739 81 21 64=
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> detnet mailing list
>> detnet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detn= et
>

_______________________________________________
detnet mailing list
detnet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet

--001a113d259897c405055be7e0e8-- From nobody Fri Oct 20 17:31:39 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EE3013458C; Fri, 20 Oct 2017 17:24:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" To: , Cc: detnet@ietf.org, db3546@att.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.63.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150854547105.20809.2216296985372097700.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 17:24:31 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] detnet - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 100 X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2017 00:24:31 -0000 Dear Lou Berger, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. detnet Session 1 (2:30:00) Thursday, Morning Session I 0930-1200 Room Name: Sophia size: 200 --------------------------------------------- Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Deterministic Networking Area Name: Routing Area Session Requester: Lou Berger Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2.5 Hours Number of Attendees: 100 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: pce teas ccamp netmod mpls Second Priority: rtgwg nvo3 tsvwg pals bess Third Priority: aqm People who must be present: Lou Berger Deborah Brungard Jouni Korhonen Patricia Thaler Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Tue Oct 24 02:23:54 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50AC713F071 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 02:23:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2XM5hrqvB6Ja for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 02:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x232.google.com (mail-lf0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA67B13D0FA for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 02:23:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x232.google.com with SMTP id g70so23186224lfl.3 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 02:23:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:thread-index:content-language; bh=b3rmA81YfLTRFlS1SUXy+gvFruE33NG/a0Lw4lDLIiM=; b=ijUUpq62VTUaPfv+q4UCEgFQLqLIwbN97xbHmqQW6IHBT/vzSKfL4BBWy6IvbmuSnB flv+RePc5JGBwsKr6IHNB9DrwlHccUPA4gnTC1/ISZK9lQSSS7DUt+TUXDB1ju3yttVa i7g3OGrnpNddFolGa1MXDKzqHFFQ7GkrYrM1umUKZ+R1Ij/T3Jz2DiNRP4gd0l1Phb/b VK94xgSiXhfp0MFsUigUQa0Qh7/VrHN2wGdyvuHnJBslFZpN6ET0b4UKDS0x+W3pVA9r 42ifRoF5LwbUFIyAa1UltirCM43wbM9Z8ap9ExtjZCmNq3wKbcheji0iOePDd6kW+GS9 +c2w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=b3rmA81YfLTRFlS1SUXy+gvFruE33NG/a0Lw4lDLIiM=; b=aJDJDlolM+v6NYAFfqdR0b16rLUw8D++rs7d3bvyFfoIMaTICs22mMNo5xbDShkQg6 tCv0G2msjivTVOyLPJRkPmk6C1Fab7uNLhxKUpZqgT6Pkh4SbVIdVDIql/S4KUk3akw1 LRsVtxb4UU2HfWqzjk3TeKELMyGB7QPzHVlIMh1KQm9WXjsA/oKVXvOMIxhvMRpW0tE6 KBvx+geM0+1AOlT54B35POJkSzh8O+8hry8QMwSzZVlkdfhjdi/BiOpg4zgRxXGWK/wy IyurKWDk0q6Ci4dchxOoUPWn75wQSExgqhrC916mRu5kQpSjOyd61lhCc3yLJdWaCA2L Eelw== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaX73Q5AeIjv5yUNOjJ+l5pZJmHOSJf9XK/i428p5eeUtL+LvTRu Q9pdvO7WofnIz5G6hi5GJ0JeFQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+Rm68pkq7w6twyE67chrz6Gvm8tWHzdrfzYOhK0ESunrn9yAS0wAfCtGyF+0gxOQPQgDBGdRw== X-Received: by 10.46.18.85 with SMTP id t82mr6723002lje.58.1508837027666; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 02:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from JOKO (81-175-169-204.co.dnainternet.fi. [81.175.169.204]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h63sm2471495lji.35.2017.10.24.02.23.46 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 24 Oct 2017 02:23:46 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jouni" To: "'Loa Andersson'" , "'Pat Thaler'" , References: In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 12:23:45 +0300 Message-ID: <078c01d34ca9$cb025cb0$61071610$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQHoXUn+OmASSF1P3btOm74xGT+DngHKUobuAYVNGqGirg0lMA== Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 09:23:52 -0000 Hi Loa, > -----Original Message----- > From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Loa = Andersson > Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 15:05 PM > To: Pat Thaler ; detnet@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol >=20 > Working Group, co-authors, >=20 > After talking to a number or people I've re-reviewed that the Packet > Replication and Elimination Function (PREF). It seems that there is a > strong relationship between router architecture and the possibility to > fully perform this function. Replication is fine with any = architecture. >=20 > However, if you have an architecture with multiple line cards and with > packet processing on the ingress, performing elimination seems to be = very > hard, and would require major changes to the routers. >=20 > As long as you have a one chip router both replication and elimination = is > possible. This was our lowest hanging fruit conclusion during the numerous DT = discussions around this topic. =20 > Since a substantial part of all routers that would be in scope for = DetNet > networks are router with multiple line cards where the packet = processing > is done on the ingress cards, the elimination function seems to be a = major > problem. >=20 > We have said that we can do elimination on the out port, but it seems = that > most routers do not have the required packet processing on the egress = line > cards. I would say that like some other assumptions we have within DetNet we = should understand that certain features are likely to be challenging to = the existing design/silicon/software and we cannot get stuck into that. = How big the delta will be to existing is IMHO important. - Jouni >=20 > /Loa >=20 > PS >=20 > Please note that I don't think this is a comment blocking the adoption = as > a wg doc. >=20 > On 2017-10-11 16:11, Rodney Cummings wrote: > > yes/support > > > > *From:*detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Pat > > Thaler > > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 10, 2017 12:28 PM > > *To:* detnet@ietf.org > > *Subject:* [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol > > > > All, > > > > This is start of a two week poll on making draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol a > > working group document. Please send email to the list indicating > > "yes/support" or "no/do not support". If indicating no, please = state > > your reservations with the document. If yes, please also feel free = to > > provide comments you'd like to see addressed once the document is a = WG > > document. > > > > Please remember that working group adoption is the start of the > > > > WG's work on the draft, not the end of it. This is not a typical > > > > adoption call in so far as that the document has captured open > > > > issues that have previously been raised by the WG and are > > > > expected to be resolved through normal WG process as the > > > > document progresses. > > > > > > The poll ends October 24 > > > > Thanks, > > > > Pat and Lou, > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > >=20 > -- >=20 >=20 > Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu > Senior MPLS Expert > Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Tue Oct 24 03:05:26 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38C7D13F6ED for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 03:05:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZzpwfMjXy4xo for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 03:05:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x22a.google.com (mail-lf0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B683913F6F1 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 03:05:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id 75so23315891lfx.1 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 03:05:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=DmBKWUSLKG9mY6sCi0kqRzkhelP48rpmpr8nqNCiIws=; b=mCJJrZ9s35YXU5dNQbFC9RphGFVSw0XVDv/LUjYuj9vmVw89mbDEn2t8RK6rGphTj0 IQ0uGQsQC3XjiiGmZFUGOsCtae/7QYohk3a2zmIhMMI6PPLLEZPziQh5yqF7pNQT0V5m loZrYLoRXvDPGobw5xmultTzeyN8ou6pQHr9KeONbYlGBKlN/GEofBOx5R7lz53nr01D BJHdv9tdLVKoCi0QF/HwMmXW/z9PXwSnWICw4b5IG4vvfEpQIK/UAwb1nSPuwr2x5QYd daPdF1p48NfvyZKBe/bUbij1+sPNGFPWH7TAyqSdACD11ina0uJmFm3JupM8AxAVWfXE QY1Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=DmBKWUSLKG9mY6sCi0kqRzkhelP48rpmpr8nqNCiIws=; b=LOObLXrB0WT2Gq2JQimz+CoPcCyJwL6ulMlqImMlBwzh5ir/NoBPVyS/G+U1iQYKYG ohcSiVlv5PN/TBgIxCa1tTeNgZcfA4HT+s1sBNOqhiBDDdd/fVynzBFG9EFwygur74nl j9r0R4l8qr3BD3LrURXvRUlekKHbPConUMnXdEnRTDdtDJrD7r8ag8kWrlU22TC+Nxs6 e/PrCr58r5CAOeYt47+YriJ/bjQSrceosyJh5FEut6+kgWZWmhO6iIWbYTOiabREJarD 36yJayxYx33E8LggnPoRzVNcYdFCu87JSQ7S1m7cG/oSlYON4veE1TYZZclUwCZtOkLp cexw== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaUCghyMzip8r4yYz46fYvPbgUkSn+ZqhX0u0yJ8TUcydbGezWvf 70ooSw2sD2i68mb5TRDdb0h3zPRL X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+QKsbiyqxepIQLPzXuUJzLlRJ94Q3JlPhlzU6fAbzDVQYeIMc75d9fJ0hFT6lcyNmPhRwyung== X-Received: by 10.46.86.139 with SMTP id k11mr7195699lje.103.1508839520452; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 03:05:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.126] (host213-123-124-182.in-addr.btopenworld.com. [213.123.124.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v62sm2452239lje.39.2017.10.24.03.05.19 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 24 Oct 2017 03:05:19 -0700 (PDT) To: Jouni , 'Loa Andersson' , 'Pat Thaler' , detnet@ietf.org References: <078c01d34ca9$cb025cb0$61071610$@gmail.com> From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: <45109864-683b-9367-e6e3-b41a2270dd53@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 11:05:18 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <078c01d34ca9$cb025cb0$61071610$@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 10:05:25 -0000 Unfortunately I don't think that it is quite as simple as requiring single chip implementations. You have to look at the internal design of that chip and the performance requirements. Elimination needs to be an atomic operation in which the sequence number is locked, read, compared with the packet, modified and written back to the Detnet parameter set for that detwire. There are two difficulties to be considered here, firstly that it is not uncommon for Network Processors to be multi-core and secondly if there are a significant number of detwires, as there might be passing through a elim/rep node in the core of the network, it likely that the parameter set will be held away from the processing cores, possibly in memory requiring a DMA to fetch the data. Thus doing the elimination in these architectures will stall the pipeline and represent a big performance hit even in a single chip router. Now let's go up a level. What is being proposed here is a major change in IP/MPLS forwarding. Pseudowires, on which you model the detnet design, did not make any such change. The operation in the S-PE was identical the common MPLS operation of label swap and forward to a tunnel. Something that can be compressed into a single re-write operation all the way down to the MAC imposition. I am deeply concerned that my making detnet look like PWs people will assume that implementation will be as simple and effective as PWs. Thus I think the current description is misleading. In mainstream forwarding with two exceptions we have a design that is fully asynchronous allowing any forwarding component to proceed without the need to liaise with any other component in the forwarding system. The two exceptions are counters, which look like RMW, but there are pipeline tricks that can be applied such that RMW is not actually done. The other is packet ordering. Packet ordering is only best effort and is not maintained through convergence. The reason we do this to help TCP, but the failure is only a soft failure (some TCP implementations may close the window but they recover). On the other hand we are told that some detnet applications take a fatal error if there is ever a misorder. Avoiding any misorder under any circumstances required analysis of the routing layer behaviour that I have not yet seen reported in this project. There may be internal tricks that can be played in the internal design of forwarders to make this work, even for multi-chassis designs, but the cost of this is the removal of a number of router architectures from the set from which the forwarder designer can choose, and to me that is a big decision that requires significant discussion amongst those with appropriate expertise. Unfortunately few of those engineers actively engage with the IETF because it is so long since we last changed an IP/MPLS invariant of this magnitude. My view is that we need a serious discussion in the IETF about what invariants we need to maintain in the forwarding path across the core. Wherever the consensus of that discussion is, needs to be reflected carefully and fully in this document if it is to go ahead. What I think might be a better approach is to eliminate elimination from this document and put it in a separate RFC. That way it can be made much clearer to operators what the consequences of elimination are and whether it is supported by a particular product. - Stewart On 24/10/2017 10:23, Jouni wrote: > Hi Loa, > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Loa Andersson >> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 15:05 PM >> To: Pat Thaler ; detnet@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol >> >> Working Group, co-authors, >> >> After talking to a number or people I've re-reviewed that the Packet >> Replication and Elimination Function (PREF). It seems that there is a >> strong relationship between router architecture and the possibility to >> fully perform this function. Replication is fine with any architecture. >> >> However, if you have an architecture with multiple line cards and with >> packet processing on the ingress, performing elimination seems to be very >> hard, and would require major changes to the routers. >> >> As long as you have a one chip router both replication and elimination is >> possible. > This was our lowest hanging fruit conclusion during the numerous DT discussions around this topic. > > >> Since a substantial part of all routers that would be in scope for DetNet >> networks are router with multiple line cards where the packet processing >> is done on the ingress cards, the elimination function seems to be a major >> problem. >> >> We have said that we can do elimination on the out port, but it seems that >> most routers do not have the required packet processing on the egress line >> cards. > I would say that like some other assumptions we have within DetNet we should understand that certain features are likely to be challenging to the existing design/silicon/software and we cannot get stuck into that. How big the delta will be to existing is IMHO important. > > - Jouni > > > >> /Loa >> >> PS >> >> Please note that I don't think this is a comment blocking the adoption as >> a wg doc. >> >> On 2017-10-11 16:11, Rodney Cummings wrote: >>> yes/support >>> >>> *From:*detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Pat >>> Thaler >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 10, 2017 12:28 PM >>> *To:* detnet@ietf.org >>> *Subject:* [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol >>> >>> All, >>> >>> This is start of a two week poll on making draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol a >>> working group document. Please send email to the list indicating >>> "yes/support" or "no/do not support". If indicating no, please state >>> your reservations with the document. If yes, please also feel free to >>> provide comments you'd like to see addressed once the document is a WG >>> document. >>> >>> Please remember that working group adoption is the start of the >>> >>> WG's work on the draft, not the end of it. This is not a typical >>> >>> adoption call in so far as that the document has captured open >>> >>> issues that have previously been raised by the WG and are >>> >>> expected to be resolved through normal WG process as the >>> >>> document progresses. >>> >>> >>> The poll ends October 24 >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Pat and Lou, >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> detnet mailing list >>> detnet@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >>> >> -- >> >> >> Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu >> Senior MPLS Expert >> Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Tue Oct 24 05:53:21 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 451C91384B5; 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24 Oct 2017 12:46:24 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-005.cisco.com (xch-rcd-005.cisco.com [173.37.102.15]) by rcdn-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v9OCkOnl011427 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 24 Oct 2017 12:46:25 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-RCD-005.cisco.com (173.37.102.15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 07:46:24 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 07:46:24 -0500 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: "detnet@ietf.org" , "tsvwg@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-thubert-tsvwg-detnet-transport-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHTTMS6TWYrBmtvxEKb6urha2/RO6Ly8A7g Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 12:46:03 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 12:45:45 +0000 Message-ID: <23ba09a493ec44ef8f37099afa00a78b@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <150884859292.25166.14620043019596199994.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <150884859292.25166.14620043019596199994.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.228.216.10] Content-Type: text/plain; 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Received: from pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.86.101]:56422 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from ) id 1e73tB-0039CL-K1; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 12:25:21 -0600 From: Lou Berger To: DetNet WG Cc: DetNet Chairs Message-ID: <87077107-3292-d97a-5d17-93fd641f7c6c@labn.net> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 14:25:20 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.86.101 X-Exim-ID: 1e73tB-0039CL-K1 X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.86.101]:56422 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 4 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] Agenda Requests IETF100 Singapore X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 18:51:56 -0000 All, The final agenda is out, see https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/agenda.html. DetNet WG is on 9:30-12:00 Thursday Morning in Sophia. If you'd like to have a presentation slot, please send a request to detnet-chairs@ietf.org not later than Sunday, October 29. Also pay attention to the important dates listed below. Specifically, the document submission deadline is on Monday, October 30, UTC 23:59. When requesting a slot, having a draft that has already been seen and discussed on the list is highly encouraged. Any WG draft not being discussed/presented needs to a status update sent to the list by Wednesday November 8. Please also provide a summary slide by Friday, November 10. We'll need all slides for presentations by end of day Sunday, November 12. The earlier, the better, though. Cheers, Jouni, Lou & Pat =====> Important dates <===== 2017-10-30 (Monday): Internet Draft submission cut-off (for all drafts, including -00) by UTC 23:59, upload using IETF ID Submission Tool. 2017-10-30 (Monday): Draft Working Group agendas due by UTC 23:59, upload using IETF Meeting Materials Management Tool. 2017-11-03 (Friday): Early Bird registration and payment cut-off at UTC 23:59. 2017-11-06 (Monday): Revised Working Group agendas due by UTC 23:59, upload using IETF Meeting Materials Management Tool. 2017-11-06 (Monday): Registration cancellation cut-off at UTC 23:59. 2017-11-10 (Friday): Final Pre-Registration and Pre-Payment cut-off at 17:00 local meeting time. 2017-11-12 - 2017-11-17: IETF 100 in Singapore From nobody Tue Oct 24 11:55:14 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 688D91393A1 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 11:55:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5PG6YMsWqtX2 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 11:55:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrg11-dlp.huawei.com (lhrrg11-dlp.huawei.com [194.213.3.61]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CCECA1397FA for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 11:55:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.65 (EHLO DFWPML706-CHM.exmail.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.65]) by lhrrg11-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BKE09838; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 19:55:01 +0100 (BST) Received: from DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com ([169.254.1.143]) by DFWPML706-CHM.exmail.huawei.com ([10.124.31.210]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 11:54:55 -0700 From: Norman Finn To: Stewart Bryant , Jouni , "'Loa Andersson'" , "'Pat Thaler'" , "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol Thread-Index: AQHTQe1baB1t4UjG7k+zw6XAnKmaLaLfJykAgArdEQCACUDYgIAAC5wAgAAOjVs= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 18:54:53 +0000 Message-ID: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CE6AB7@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com> References: <078c01d34ca9$cb025cb0$61071610$@gmail.com>, <45109864-683b-9367-e6e3-b41a2270dd53@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <45109864-683b-9367-e6e3-b41a2270dd53@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.18.4.33] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A010203.59EF8C87.003D, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.1.143, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 55ade05ede998c69c635173ddd2bd58c Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 18:55:12 -0000 Several good points have been made by several people. I'll add and/or rein= force some, and contest some others:=0A= =0A= Splitting out replication/elimination:=0A= =0A= Any router can punt replication/elimination to software, and do a great job= on replication/elimination, but be useless from the latency standpoint. I= have developed and shipped an awful lot of federated devices (line cards += mid- or back-plane + controller) that would see no significant hit on perf= ormance when executing packet replication/elimination, though they would ha= ve tight resource constraints on the number of flows supported. I have shi= pped quite a number of devices that could do a great job on replication/eli= mination, but only if you use a chunk of an FPGA facility. That might mean= sacrificing some other feature, presumably one not needed in this environm= ent. I have also been associated with devices that are cost-engineered and= optimized for a function so tightly that they can accommodate no such feat= ure as this. The simple statement, "packet replication/elimination require= s a one-chip router" is much too simple to be useful, and I would object to= inserting it.=0A= =0A= The "average" one-chip device is likely to find replication/elimination eas= ier than the "average" federated device. That means nothing. What matters= is which of *my* devices can implement this feature. IMO it's a bad idea = to split the document in two based on, "some implementations may find it di= fficult." Lists of reasons why it may or may not be difficult (INCLUDING M= INE!) are pointless, though fun to write.=0A= =0A= Now, if more than one vendor steps in and says, "I want this split out, bec= ause my devices can't do it efficiently," I'm ready to listen and change th= ings. In the meantime, I think it's a good idea to put something in the do= cument to the effect of, "before you get all enthusiastic about this featur= e, please look at this potential implementation impediment, and see whether= your devices will find it difficult."=0A= =0A= I would like to see more mention in the DetNet data plane drafts of flows t= hat do not require replication/elimination, in order to make it clear that = DetNet does not equal rep/elim. (I think they're too focused on that one a= spect, because, of course, it is the tough one to handle.)=0A= =0A= But, the point of DetNet is twofold: 1) bounded worst-case latency; and 2) = extraordinarily low packet loss. So, I do want all the main elements in th= e architecture document.=0A= =0A= In-order delivery:=0A= =0A= The architecture draft does not say much about in-order delivery. 802.1CB = (frame replication and elimination) makes it a specific non-goal, though it= gives you clues about how it could be done. The use cases draft states e= xplicitly that it is not interested in in-order delivery for video streams,= because it's too hard. The difficulty of in-order delivery has been discu= ssed a lot, both in IEEE and in DetNet, an the conclusion was, "forget abou= t it."=0A= =0A= Delivery order is therefore not an argument against replication/elimination= .=0A= =0A= In general, routers do not offer guarantees of in-order delivery, except in= sofar as sequence numbering in various forms provides an indication that mi= s-ordering has happened, and an opportunity to correct it. Some applicatio= ns find that useful. DetNet changes nothing in that regard.=0A= =0A= I agree, however, that there may be a blind spot in the drafts with this re= gard (generated by the authors' over-familiarity with the subject). Some m= ention of in-order delivery might be useful, along the following lines: A.= For many DetNet applications, the transmission interval for any given flow= is longer than the delivery time, so the opportunity for out-of-order deli= very is strictly limited, and can be engineered out. B. Given point A, the = use of dual fixed paths and rep/elim, along with worst-case latency guarant= ees, provides useful limits on out-of-order delivery, even when the paths a= re much extended by DetNet. Whether this belongs in architecture, dp-sol, = or some other draft is a good question.=0A= =0A= -- Norm=0A= =0A= ________________________________________=0A= From: detnet [detnet-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Stewart Bryant [stewart= .bryant@gmail.com]=0A= Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 3:05 AM=0A= To: Jouni; 'Loa Andersson'; 'Pat Thaler'; detnet@ietf.org=0A= Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol=0A= =0A= Unfortunately I don't think that it is quite as simple as requiring=0A= single chip implementations. You have to look at the internal design of=0A= that chip and the performance requirements.=0A= =0A= Elimination needs to be an atomic operation in which the sequence number=0A= is locked, read, compared with the packet, modified and written back to=0A= the Detnet parameter set for that detwire. There are two difficulties to=0A= be considered here, firstly that it is not uncommon for Network=0A= Processors to be multi-core and secondly if there are a significant=0A= number of detwires, as there might be passing through a elim/rep node in=0A= the core of the network, it likely that the parameter set will be held=0A= away from the processing cores, possibly in memory requiring a DMA to=0A= fetch the data. Thus doing the elimination in these architectures will=0A= stall the pipeline and represent a big performance hit even in a single=0A= chip router.=0A= =0A= Now let's go up a level. What is being proposed here is a major change=0A= in IP/MPLS forwarding. Pseudowires, on which you model the detnet=0A= design, did not make any such change. The operation in the S-PE was=0A= identical the common MPLS operation of label swap and forward to a=0A= tunnel. Something that can be compressed into a single re-write=0A= operation all the way down to the MAC imposition. I am deeply concerned=0A= that my making detnet look like PWs people will assume that=0A= implementation will be as simple and effective as PWs. Thus I think the=0A= current description is misleading.=0A= =0A= In mainstream forwarding with two exceptions we have a design that is=0A= fully asynchronous allowing any forwarding component to proceed without=0A= the need to liaise with any other component in the forwarding system.=0A= The two exceptions are counters, which look like RMW, but there are=0A= pipeline tricks that can be applied such that RMW is not actually done.=0A= The other is packet ordering. Packet ordering is only best effort and is=0A= not maintained through convergence. The reason we do this to help TCP,=0A= but the failure is only a soft failure (some TCP implementations may=0A= close the window but they recover). On the other hand we are told that=0A= some detnet applications take a fatal error if there is ever a misorder.=0A= Avoiding any misorder under any circumstances required analysis of the=0A= routing layer behaviour that I have not yet seen reported in this project.= =0A= =0A= There may be internal tricks that can be played in the internal design=0A= of forwarders to make this work, even for multi-chassis designs, but the=0A= cost of this is the removal of a number of router architectures from the=0A= set from which the forwarder designer can choose, and to me that is a=0A= big decision that requires significant discussion amongst those with=0A= appropriate expertise. Unfortunately few of those engineers actively=0A= engage with the IETF because it is so long since we last changed an=0A= IP/MPLS invariant of this magnitude.=0A= =0A= My view is that we need a serious discussion in the IETF about what=0A= invariants we need to maintain in the forwarding path across the core.=0A= Wherever the consensus of that discussion is, needs to be reflected=0A= carefully and fully in this document if it is to go ahead.=0A= =0A= What I think might be a better approach is to eliminate elimination from=0A= this document and put it in a separate RFC. That way it can be made much=0A= clearer to operators what the consequences of elimination are and=0A= whether it is supported by a particular product.=0A= =0A= - Stewart=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= On 24/10/2017 10:23, Jouni wrote:=0A= > Hi Loa,=0A= >=0A= >> -----Original Message-----=0A= >> From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Loa Andersson= =0A= >> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 15:05 PM=0A= >> To: Pat Thaler ; detnet@ietf.org=0A= >> Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol=0A= >>=0A= >> Working Group, co-authors,=0A= >>=0A= >> After talking to a number or people I've re-reviewed that the Packet=0A= >> Replication and Elimination Function (PREF). It seems that there is a= =0A= >> strong relationship between router architecture and the possibility to= =0A= >> fully perform this function. Replication is fine with any architecture.= =0A= >>=0A= >> However, if you have an architecture with multiple line cards and with= =0A= >> packet processing on the ingress, performing elimination seems to be ver= y=0A= >> hard, and would require major changes to the routers.=0A= >>=0A= >> As long as you have a one chip router both replication and elimination i= s=0A= >> possible.=0A= > This was our lowest hanging fruit conclusion during the numerous DT discu= ssions around this topic.=0A= >=0A= >=0A= >> Since a substantial part of all routers that would be in scope for DetNe= t=0A= >> networks are router with multiple line cards where the packet processing= =0A= >> is done on the ingress cards, the elimination function seems to be a maj= or=0A= >> problem.=0A= >>=0A= >> We have said that we can do elimination on the out port, but it seems th= at=0A= >> most routers do not have the required packet processing on the egress li= ne=0A= >> cards.=0A= > I would say that like some other assumptions we have within DetNet we sho= uld understand that certain features are likely to be challenging to the ex= isting design/silicon/software and we cannot get stuck into that. How big t= he delta will be to existing is IMHO important.=0A= >=0A= > - Jouni=0A= >=0A= >=0A= >=0A= >> /Loa=0A= >>=0A= >> PS=0A= >>=0A= >> Please note that I don't think this is a comment blocking the adoption a= s=0A= >> a wg doc.=0A= >>=0A= >> On 2017-10-11 16:11, Rodney Cummings wrote:=0A= >>> yes/support=0A= >>>=0A= >>> *From:*detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Pat=0A= >>> Thaler=0A= >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 10, 2017 12:28 PM=0A= >>> *To:* detnet@ietf.org=0A= >>> *Subject:* [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol=0A= >>>=0A= >>> All,=0A= >>>=0A= >>> This is start of a two week poll on making draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol a=0A= >>> working group document. Please send email to the list indicating=0A= >>> "yes/support" or "no/do not support". If indicating no, please state= =0A= >>> your reservations with the document. If yes, please also feel free to= =0A= >>> provide comments you'd like to see addressed once the document is a WG= =0A= >>> document.=0A= >>>=0A= >>> Please remember that working group adoption is the start of the=0A= >>>=0A= >>> WG's work on the draft, not the end of it. This is not a typical=0A= >>>=0A= >>> adoption call in so far as that the document has captured open=0A= >>>=0A= >>> issues that have previously been raised by the WG and are=0A= >>>=0A= >>> expected to be resolved through normal WG process as the=0A= >>>=0A= >>> document progresses.=0A= >>>=0A= >>>=0A= >>> The poll ends October 24=0A= >>>=0A= >>> Thanks,=0A= >>>=0A= >>> Pat and Lou,=0A= >>>=0A= >>>=0A= >>>=0A= >>> _______________________________________________=0A= >>> detnet mailing list=0A= >>> detnet@ietf.org=0A= >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet=0A= >>>=0A= >> --=0A= >>=0A= >>=0A= >> Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu=0A= >> Senior MPLS Expert=0A= >> Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64=0A= >>=0A= >> _______________________________________________=0A= >> detnet mailing list=0A= >> detnet@ietf.org=0A= >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet=0A= > _______________________________________________=0A= > detnet mailing list=0A= > detnet@ietf.org=0A= > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet=0A= =0A= _______________________________________________=0A= detnet mailing list=0A= detnet@ietf.org=0A= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet=0A= From nobody Tue Oct 24 12:26:56 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CF80139676 for ; 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Received: from pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.15.86.101]:59476 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from ) id 1e74qc-003O1o-QA; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 13:26:47 -0600 To: Stewart Bryant , Jouni , 'Loa Andersson' , 'Pat Thaler' , detnet@ietf.org References: <078c01d34ca9$cb025cb0$61071610$@gmail.com> <45109864-683b-9367-e6e3-b41a2270dd53@gmail.com> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <776d3d54-c618-443d-42f7-f4867b6ea300@labn.net> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 15:26:45 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <45109864-683b-9367-e6e3-b41a2270dd53@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.15.86.101 X-Exim-ID: 1e74qc-003O1o-QA X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-15-86-101.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([IPv6:::1]) [100.15.86.101]:59476 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 5 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 19:26:55 -0000 I want to pick up on one point made below: > Pseudowires, on which you model the detnet design, ... I think this touches on one major open issue we (as a WG) should close on sooner rather than later, specifically do we based DetNet over MPLS on PWs or on EVPN.  (This is Comment #3.1, which is credited to me but was actually raised at IETF 99, by Jeff T if my memory serves.) Lou On 10/24/2017 6:05 AM, Stewart Bryant wrote: > Unfortunately I don't think that it is quite as simple as requiring > single chip implementations. You have to look at the internal design of > that chip and the performance requirements. > > Elimination needs to be an atomic operation in which the sequence number > is locked, read, compared with the packet, modified and written back to > the Detnet parameter set for that detwire. There are two difficulties to > be considered here, firstly that it is not uncommon for Network > Processors to be multi-core and secondly if there are a significant > number of detwires, as there might be passing through a elim/rep node in > the core of the network, it likely that the parameter set will be held > away from the processing cores, possibly in memory requiring a DMA to > fetch the data. Thus doing the elimination in these architectures will > stall the pipeline and represent a big performance hit even in a single > chip router. > > Now let's go up a level. What is being proposed here is a major change > in IP/MPLS forwarding. Pseudowires, on which you model the detnet > design, did not make any such change. The operation in the S-PE was > identical the common MPLS operation of label swap and forward to a > tunnel. Something that can be compressed into a single re-write > operation all the way down to the MAC imposition. I am deeply concerned > that my making detnet look like PWs people will assume that > implementation will be as simple and effective as PWs. Thus I think the > current description is misleading. > > In mainstream forwarding with two exceptions we have a design that is > fully asynchronous allowing any forwarding component to proceed without > the need to liaise with any other component in the forwarding system. > The two exceptions are counters, which look like RMW, but there are > pipeline tricks that can be applied such that RMW is not actually done. > The other is packet ordering. Packet ordering is only best effort and is > not maintained through convergence. The reason we do this to help TCP, > but the failure is only a soft failure (some TCP implementations may > close the window but they recover). On the other hand we are told that > some detnet applications take a fatal error if there is ever a misorder. > Avoiding any misorder under any circumstances required analysis of the > routing layer behaviour that I have not yet seen reported in this project. > > There may be internal tricks that can be played in the internal design > of forwarders to make this work, even for multi-chassis designs, but the > cost of this is the removal of a number of router architectures from the > set from which the forwarder designer can choose, and to me that is a > big decision that requires significant discussion amongst those with > appropriate expertise. Unfortunately few of those engineers actively > engage with the IETF because it is so long since we last changed an > IP/MPLS invariant of this magnitude. > > My view is that we need a serious discussion in the IETF about what > invariants we need to maintain in the forwarding path across the core. > Wherever the consensus of that discussion is, needs to be reflected > carefully and fully in this document if it is to go ahead. > > What I think might be a better approach is to eliminate elimination from > this document and put it in a separate RFC. That way it can be made much > clearer to operators what the consequences of elimination are and > whether it is supported by a particular product. > > - Stewart > > > > On 24/10/2017 10:23, Jouni wrote: >> Hi Loa, >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Loa Andersson >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 15:05 PM >>> To: Pat Thaler ; detnet@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol >>> >>> Working Group, co-authors, >>> >>> After talking to a number or people I've re-reviewed that the Packet >>> Replication and Elimination Function (PREF). It seems that there is a >>> strong relationship between router architecture and the possibility to >>> fully perform this function. Replication is fine with any architecture. >>> >>> However, if you have an architecture with multiple line cards and with >>> packet processing on the ingress, performing elimination seems to be very >>> hard, and would require major changes to the routers. >>> >>> As long as you have a one chip router both replication and elimination is >>> possible. >> This was our lowest hanging fruit conclusion during the numerous DT discussions around this topic. >> >> >>> Since a substantial part of all routers that would be in scope for DetNet >>> networks are router with multiple line cards where the packet processing >>> is done on the ingress cards, the elimination function seems to be a major >>> problem. >>> >>> We have said that we can do elimination on the out port, but it seems that >>> most routers do not have the required packet processing on the egress line >>> cards. >> I would say that like some other assumptions we have within DetNet we should understand that certain features are likely to be challenging to the existing design/silicon/software and we cannot get stuck into that. How big the delta will be to existing is IMHO important. >> >> - Jouni >> >> >> >>> /Loa >>> >>> PS >>> >>> Please note that I don't think this is a comment blocking the adoption as >>> a wg doc. >>> >>> On 2017-10-11 16:11, Rodney Cummings wrote: >>>> yes/support >>>> >>>> *From:*detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Pat >>>> Thaler >>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 10, 2017 12:28 PM >>>> *To:* detnet@ietf.org >>>> *Subject:* [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol >>>> >>>> All, >>>> >>>> This is start of a two week poll on making draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol a >>>> working group document. Please send email to the list indicating >>>> "yes/support" or "no/do not support". If indicating no, please state >>>> your reservations with the document. If yes, please also feel free to >>>> provide comments you'd like to see addressed once the document is a WG >>>> document. >>>> >>>> Please remember that working group adoption is the start of the >>>> >>>> WG's work on the draft, not the end of it. This is not a typical >>>> >>>> adoption call in so far as that the document has captured open >>>> >>>> issues that have previously been raised by the WG and are >>>> >>>> expected to be resolved through normal WG process as the >>>> >>>> document progresses. >>>> >>>> >>>> The poll ends October 24 >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Pat and Lou, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> detnet mailing list >>>> detnet@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >>>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu >>> Senior MPLS Expert >>> Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> detnet mailing list >>> detnet@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > From nobody Tue Oct 24 12:33:34 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 653231386F3 for ; 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Tue, 24 Oct 2017 12:33:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from JOKO ([83.150.126.201]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a73sm232886ljf.6.2017.10.24.12.33.27 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 24 Oct 2017 12:33:27 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jouni" To: "'Stewart Bryant'" , "'Loa Andersson'" , "'Pat Thaler'" , References: <078c01d34ca9$cb025cb0$61071610$@gmail.com> <45109864-683b-9367-e6e3-b41a2270dd53@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <45109864-683b-9367-e6e3-b41a2270dd53@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 22:33:26 +0300 Message-ID: <0fa301d34cfe$f7422df0$e5c689d0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQHoXUn+OmASSF1P3btOm74xGT+DngHKUobuAYVNGqEB72SzWQKLZ3KcoorlLFA= Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 19:33:33 -0000 Stewart, > -----Original Message----- > From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 13:05 PM > To: Jouni ; 'Loa Andersson' ; 'Pat > Thaler' ; detnet@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol >=20 >=20 > Unfortunately I don't think that it is quite as simple as requiring = single > chip implementations. You have to look at the internal design of that = chip > and the performance requirements. No one was/is _requiring_ single chip implementations. It was just = concluded to be the easiest solution to the problem. We did not find a = good solution but did not want to get stuck to it either. All input is = welcome. [snip] > Now let's go up a level. What is being proposed here is a major change = in > IP/MPLS forwarding. Pseudowires, on which you model the detnet design, = did > not make any such change. The operation in the S-PE was identical the > common MPLS operation of label swap and forward to a tunnel. Something > that can be compressed into a single re-write operation all the way = down > to the MAC imposition. I am deeply concerned that my making detnet = look > like PWs people will assume that implementation will be as simple and > effective as PWs. Thus I think the current description is misleading. Ok, a fair statement. =20 [snip] > window but they recover). On the other hand we are told that some = detnet > applications take a fatal error if there is ever a misorder. > Avoiding any misorder under any circumstances required analysis of the > routing layer behaviour that I have not yet seen reported in this = project. If one is to emulate e.g. a serial link what else you can do than = deliver packets to the end system in-order. However, the solution = proposal did not say anything about it because the architecture document = pushed the hardship to end systems. [snap] > What I think might be a better approach is to eliminate elimination = from > this document and put it in a separate RFC. That way it can be made = much > clearer to operators what the consequences of elimination are and = whether > it is supported by a particular product. This is something to think about. I would not rush to it as the first = step though. - Jouni >=20 > - Stewart >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 24/10/2017 10:23, Jouni wrote: > > Hi Loa, > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Loa > >> Andersson > >> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 15:05 PM > >> To: Pat Thaler ; detnet@ietf.org > >> Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol > >> > >> Working Group, co-authors, > >> > >> After talking to a number or people I've re-reviewed that the = Packet > >> Replication and Elimination Function (PREF). It seems that there = is > >> a strong relationship between router architecture and the = possibility > >> to fully perform this function. Replication is fine with any > architecture. > >> > >> However, if you have an architecture with multiple line cards and > >> with packet processing on the ingress, performing elimination seems > >> to be very hard, and would require major changes to the routers. > >> > >> As long as you have a one chip router both replication and > >> elimination is possible. > > This was our lowest hanging fruit conclusion during the numerous DT > discussions around this topic. > > > > > >> Since a substantial part of all routers that would be in scope for > >> DetNet networks are router with multiple line cards where the = packet > >> processing is done on the ingress cards, the elimination function > >> seems to be a major problem. > >> > >> We have said that we can do elimination on the out port, but it = seems > >> that most routers do not have the required packet processing on the > >> egress line cards. > > I would say that like some other assumptions we have within DetNet = we > should understand that certain features are likely to be challenging = to > the existing design/silicon/software and we cannot get stuck into = that. > How big the delta will be to existing is IMHO important. > > > > - Jouni > > > > > > > >> /Loa > >> > >> PS > >> > >> Please note that I don't think this is a comment blocking the > >> adoption as a wg doc. > >> > >> On 2017-10-11 16:11, Rodney Cummings wrote: > >>> yes/support > >>> > >>> *From:*detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Pat > >>> Thaler > >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 10, 2017 12:28 PM > >>> *To:* detnet@ietf.org > >>> *Subject:* [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol > >>> > >>> All, > >>> > >>> This is start of a two week poll on making draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol = a > >>> working group document. Please send email to the list indicating > >>> "yes/support" or "no/do not support". If indicating no, please > >>> state your reservations with the document. If yes, please also = feel > >>> free to provide comments you'd like to see addressed once the > >>> document is a WG document. > >>> > >>> Please remember that working group adoption is the start of the > >>> > >>> WG's work on the draft, not the end of it. This is not a typical > >>> > >>> adoption call in so far as that the document has captured open > >>> > >>> issues that have previously been raised by the WG and are > >>> > >>> expected to be resolved through normal WG process as the > >>> > >>> document progresses. > >>> > >>> > >>> The poll ends October 24 > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> > >>> Pat and Lou, > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> detnet mailing list > >>> detnet@ietf.org > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > >>> > >> -- > >> > >> > >> Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu > >> Senior MPLS Expert > >> Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> detnet mailing list > >> detnet@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > _______________________________________________ > > detnet mailing list > > detnet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Tue Oct 24 21:28:03 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CB9413B0EA; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 21:27:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.621 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.621 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SJ4D2lpx1j0p; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 21:27:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com (mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com [67.231.144.242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B3D92139203; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 21:27:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0045961.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id v9P4Q4bh008141; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 21:27:51 -0700 Received: from dlb-xchpw03.dolby.net (dcd-outbound.dolby.com [67.216.187.124]) by mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2dr1s2hwdd-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 24 Oct 2017 21:27:51 -0700 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) by DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 21:27:49 -0700 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) by DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 21:27:49 -0700 From: "Grossman, Ethan A." To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" CC: "detnet@ietf.org" , "tsvwg@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-thubert-tsvwg-detnet-transport-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHTTMS6TWYrBmtvxEKb6urha2/RO6Ly8A7ggAEJQRQ= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 04:27:49 +0000 Message-ID: <1508905667030.49538@dolby.com> References: <150884859292.25166.14620043019596199994.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>, <23ba09a493ec44ef8f37099afa00a78b@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <23ba09a493ec44ef8f37099afa00a78b@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.233.7.60] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-10-25_02:, , signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] New Version Notification for draft-thubert-tsvwg-detnet-transport-00.txt X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 04:27:55 -0000 Thanks Pascal for writing this draft, I found it very helpful to understand= this material, and I found your explanations to be lucid and possible to f= ollow on a single reading. Nice work. =0A= Ethan.=0A= ________________________________________=0A= From: detnet on behalf of Pascal Thubert (pthuber= t) =0A= Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 5:46 AM=0A= To: detnet@ietf.org; tsvwg@ietf.org=0A= Subject: [Detnet] FW: New Version Notification for draft-thubert-tsvwg-detn= et-transport-00.txt=0A= =0A= Dear all:=0A= =0A= At the last DetNet meeting in Prague, Janos introduced the DetNet SLA, and = we discussed the need to adapt the application injection of data into packe= ts that match this SLA.=0A= To my best understanding of what happened then, the chairs then insisted th= at this was beyond the current scope and we discussed in-room and then outs= ide the room that there is a need for a component that relates to IETF tran= sport in order to achieve the functions required by the architecture at the= DetNet Service Layer.=0A= =0A= I put together the thoughts I gathered from those discussions in the form o= f an early draft and posted to TSVWG, which appeared to me as the natural p= lace to discuss the topic.=0A= Please find the references below, comments welcome!=0A= =0A= Cheers,=0A= =0A= Pascal=0A= -----Original Message-----=0A= From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org]=0A= Sent: mardi 24 octobre 2017 14:37=0A= To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) =0A= Subject: New Version Notification for draft-thubert-tsvwg-detnet-transport-= 00.txt=0A= =0A= =0A= A new version of I-D, draft-thubert-tsvwg-detnet-transport-00.txt=0A= has been successfully submitted by Pascal Thubert and posted to the IETF re= pository.=0A= =0A= Name: draft-thubert-tsvwg-detnet-transport=0A= Revision: 00=0A= Title: A Transport Layer for Deterministic Networks=0A= Document date: 2017-10-24=0A= Group: Individual Submission=0A= Pages: 21=0A= URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-thubert-tsvwg-de= tnet-transport-00.txt=0A= Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-thubert-tsvwg-detnet= -transport/=0A= Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thubert-tsvwg-detnet-tran= sport-00=0A= Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-thubert-tsvwg-d= etnet-transport-00=0A= =0A= =0A= Abstract:=0A= This document specifies the behavior of a Transport Layer operating=0A= over a Deterministic Network and implementing a DetNet Service Layer=0A= and a Northbound side of the DetNet User-to-Network Interface.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.=0A= =0A= The IETF Secretariat=0A= =0A= _______________________________________________=0A= detnet mailing list=0A= detnet@ietf.org=0A= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet=0A= From nobody Wed Oct 25 11:27:49 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B25713F43D for ; 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Wed, 25 Oct 2017 11:27:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.85.99 with HTTP; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 11:27:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <0fa301d34cfe$f7422df0$e5c689d0$@gmail.com> References: <078c01d34ca9$cb025cb0$61071610$@gmail.com> <45109864-683b-9367-e6e3-b41a2270dd53@gmail.com> <0fa301d34cfe$f7422df0$e5c689d0$@gmail.com> From: Pat Thaler Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 11:27:42 -0700 Message-ID: To: Jouni Cc: Stewart Bryant , Loa Andersson , detnet@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1144756e278d07055c63360a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 18:27:48 -0000 --001a1144756e278d07055c63360a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" All, This poll is complete (as of Oct 25). The document is adopted. Clearly, the draft provides a starting point but there is significant work ahead on it for the Working Group. Authors, Please republish the draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol-02 as draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-00 with the filename and date being the only changes. Thank you! Pat and (Lou) On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 12:33 PM, Jouni wrote: > Stewart, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 13:05 PM > > To: Jouni ; 'Loa Andersson' ; 'Pat > > Thaler' ; detnet@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol > > > > > > Unfortunately I don't think that it is quite as simple as requiring > single > > chip implementations. You have to look at the internal design of that > chip > > and the performance requirements. > > No one was/is _requiring_ single chip implementations. It was just > concluded to be the easiest solution to the problem. We did not find a good > solution but did not want to get stuck to it either. All input is welcome. > > [snip] > > > Now let's go up a level. What is being proposed here is a major change in > > IP/MPLS forwarding. Pseudowires, on which you model the detnet design, > did > > not make any such change. The operation in the S-PE was identical the > > common MPLS operation of label swap and forward to a tunnel. Something > > that can be compressed into a single re-write operation all the way down > > to the MAC imposition. I am deeply concerned that my making detnet look > > like PWs people will assume that implementation will be as simple and > > effective as PWs. Thus I think the current description is misleading. > > Ok, a fair statement. > > [snip] > > > window but they recover). On the other hand we are told that some detnet > > applications take a fatal error if there is ever a misorder. > > Avoiding any misorder under any circumstances required analysis of the > > routing layer behaviour that I have not yet seen reported in this > project. > > If one is to emulate e.g. a serial link what else you can do than deliver > packets to the end system in-order. However, the solution proposal did not > say anything about it because the architecture document pushed the hardship > to end systems. > > [snap] > > > What I think might be a better approach is to eliminate elimination from > > this document and put it in a separate RFC. That way it can be made much > > clearer to operators what the consequences of elimination are and whether > > it is supported by a particular product. > > This is something to think about. I would not rush to it as the first step > though. > > - Jouni > > > > > - Stewart > > > > > > > > On 24/10/2017 10:23, Jouni wrote: > > > Hi Loa, > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Loa > > >> Andersson > > >> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 15:05 PM > > >> To: Pat Thaler ; detnet@ietf.org > > >> Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol > > >> > > >> Working Group, co-authors, > > >> > > >> After talking to a number or people I've re-reviewed that the Packet > > >> Replication and Elimination Function (PREF). It seems that there is > > >> a strong relationship between router architecture and the possibility > > >> to fully perform this function. Replication is fine with any > > architecture. > > >> > > >> However, if you have an architecture with multiple line cards and > > >> with packet processing on the ingress, performing elimination seems > > >> to be very hard, and would require major changes to the routers. > > >> > > >> As long as you have a one chip router both replication and > > >> elimination is possible. > > > This was our lowest hanging fruit conclusion during the numerous DT > > discussions around this topic. > > > > > > > > >> Since a substantial part of all routers that would be in scope for > > >> DetNet networks are router with multiple line cards where the packet > > >> processing is done on the ingress cards, the elimination function > > >> seems to be a major problem. > > >> > > >> We have said that we can do elimination on the out port, but it seems > > >> that most routers do not have the required packet processing on the > > >> egress line cards. > > > I would say that like some other assumptions we have within DetNet we > > should understand that certain features are likely to be challenging to > > the existing design/silicon/software and we cannot get stuck into that. > > How big the delta will be to existing is IMHO important. > > > > > > - Jouni > > > > > > > > > > > >> /Loa > > >> > > >> PS > > >> > > >> Please note that I don't think this is a comment blocking the > > >> adoption as a wg doc. > > >> > > >> On 2017-10-11 16:11, Rodney Cummings wrote: > > >>> yes/support > > >>> > > >>> *From:*detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Pat > > >>> Thaler > > >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 10, 2017 12:28 PM > > >>> *To:* detnet@ietf.org > > >>> *Subject:* [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol > > >>> > > >>> All, > > >>> > > >>> This is start of a two week poll on making draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol a > > >>> working group document. Please send email to the list indicating > > >>> "yes/support" or "no/do not support". If indicating no, please > > >>> state your reservations with the document. If yes, please also feel > > >>> free to provide comments you'd like to see addressed once the > > >>> document is a WG document. > > >>> > > >>> Please remember that working group adoption is the start of the > > >>> > > >>> WG's work on the draft, not the end of it. This is not a typical > > >>> > > >>> adoption call in so far as that the document has captured open > > >>> > > >>> issues that have previously been raised by the WG and are > > >>> > > >>> expected to be resolved through normal WG process as the > > >>> > > >>> document progresses. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> The poll ends October 24 > > >>> > > >>> Thanks, > > >>> > > >>> Pat and Lou, > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> detnet mailing list > > >>> detnet@ietf.org > > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > >>> > > >> -- > > >> > > >> > > >> Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu > > >> Senior MPLS Expert > > >> Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> detnet mailing list > > >> detnet@ietf.org > > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > _______________________________________________ > > > detnet mailing list > > > detnet@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > > > --001a1144756e278d07055c63360a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
All,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 This poll is complete (as of Oct 25).=C2=A0 The do= cument is adopted. Clearly, the draft provides a starting point but there i= s significant work ahead on it for the Working Group.

Authors,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Please republish= the draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol<= span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">-02 as
draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-00 with the= filename and date being the only
changes.
=
Thank you!<= /span>

Pat and (Lou)

On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 12:33 PM, Jo= uni <jouni.nospam@gmail.com> wrote:
Stewart,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 13:05 PM
> To: Jouni <jouni.nospam@g= mail.com>; 'Loa Andersson' <= loa@pi.nu>; 'Pat
> Thaler' <pat.thaler@= broadcom.com>; detnet@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol
>
>
> Unfortunately I don't think that it is qui= te as simple as requiring single
> chip implementations. You have to look at the internal design of that = chip
> and the performance requirements.

No one was/is _requiring_ single chip implementations. It was just c= oncluded to be the easiest solution to the problem. We did not find a good = solution but did not want to get stuck to it either. All input is welcome.<= br>
[snip]

> Now let's go up a level. What is being proposed here is a major ch= ange in
> IP/MPLS forwarding. Pseudowires, on which you model the detnet design,= did
> not make any such change. The operation in the S-PE was identical the<= br> > common MPLS operation of label swap and forward to a tunnel. Something=
> that can be compressed into a single re-write operation all the way do= wn
> to the MAC imposition. I am deeply concerned that my making detnet loo= k
> like PWs people will assume that implementation will be as simple and<= br> > effective as PWs. Thus I think the current description is misleading.<= br>
Ok, a fair statement.

[snip]

> window but they recover). On the other hand we are told that some detn= et
> applications take a fatal error if there is ever a misorder.
> Avoiding any misorder under any circumstances required analysis of the=
> routing layer behaviour that I have not yet seen reported in this proj= ect.

If one is to emulate e.g. a serial link what else you can do than de= liver packets to the end system in-order. However, the solution proposal di= d not say anything about it because the architecture document pushed the ha= rdship to end systems.

[snap]

> What I think might be a better approach is to eliminate elimination fr= om
> this document and put it in a separate RFC. That way it can be made mu= ch
> clearer to operators what the consequences of elimination are and whet= her
> it is supported by a particular product.

This is something to think about. I would not rush to it as the firs= t step though.

- Jouni

>
> - Stewart
>
>
>
> On 24/10/2017 10:23, Jouni wrote:
> > Hi Loa,
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Loa
> >> Andersson
> >> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 15:05 PM
> >> To: Pat Thaler <pat.thaler@broadcom.com>; detnet= @ietf.org
> >> Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol=
> >>
> >> Working Group, co-authors,
> >>
> >> After talking to a number or people I've re-reviewed that= the Packet
> >> Replication and=C2=A0 Elimination Function (PREF). It seems t= hat there is
> >> a strong relationship between router architecture and the pos= sibility
> >> to fully perform this function. Replication is fine with any<= br> > architecture.
> >>
> >> However, if you have an architecture with multiple line cards= and
> >> with packet processing on the ingress, performing elimination= seems
> >> to be very hard, and would require major changes to the route= rs.
> >>
> >> As long as you have a one chip router both replication and > >> elimination is possible.
> > This was our lowest hanging fruit conclusion during the numerous = DT
> discussions around this topic.
> >
> >
> >> Since a substantial part of all routers that would be in scop= e for
> >> DetNet networks are router with multiple line cards where the= packet
> >> processing is done on the ingress cards, the elimination func= tion
> >> seems to be a major problem.
> >>
> >> We have said that we can do elimination on the out port, but = it seems
> >> that most routers do not have the required packet processing = on the
> >> egress line cards.
> > I would say that like some other assumptions we have within DetNe= t we
> should understand that certain features are likely to be challenging t= o
> the existing design/silicon/software and we cannot get stuck into that= .
> How big the delta will be to existing is IMHO important.
> >
> > - Jouni
> >
> >
> >
> >> /Loa
> >>
> >> PS
> >>
> >> Please note that I don't think this is a comment blocking= the
> >> adoption as a wg doc.
> >>
> >> On 2017-10-11 16:11, Rodney Cummings wrote:
> >>> yes/support
> >>>
> >>> *From:*detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Pat
> >>> Thaler
> >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 10, 2017 12:28 PM
> >>> *To:* detnet@ietf.org<= /a>
> >>> *Subject:* [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-s= ol
> >>>
> >>> All,
> >>>
> >>> This is start of a two week poll on making draft-dt-detne= t-dp-sol a
> >>> working group document. Please send email to the list ind= icating
> >>> "yes/support" or "no/do not support".= =C2=A0 If indicating no, please
> >>> state your reservations with the document.=C2=A0 If yes, = please also feel
> >>> free to provide comments you'd like to see addressed = once the
> >>> document is a WG document.
> >>>
> >>> Please remember that working group adoption is the start = of the
> >>>
> >>> WG's work on the draft, not the end of it. This is no= t a typical
> >>>
> >>> adoption call in so far as that the document has captured= open
> >>>
> >>> issues that have previously been raised by the WG and are=
> >>>
> >>> expected to be resolved through normal WG process as the<= br> > >>>
> >>> document progresses.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> The poll ends October 24
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>>
> >>> Pat and Lou,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> detnet mailing list
> >>> detnet@ietf.org > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list= info/detnet
> >>>
> >> --
> >>
> >>
> >> Loa Andersson=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 email: loa= @pi.nu
> >> Senior MPLS Expert
> >> Huawei Technologies (consultant)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0phone: +46 739 81 = 21 64
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> detnet mailing list
> >> detnet@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinf= o/detnet
> > _______________________________________________
> > detnet mailing list
> > detnet@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/det= net



--001a1144756e278d07055c63360a-- From nobody Wed Oct 25 13:35:26 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C52013F465 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 13:35:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UXCvmy5TIR_k for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 13:35:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dggwg11-dlp.huawei.com (lhrrg11-dlp.huawei.com [194.213.3.61]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C0DB213A317 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 13:35:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DFWPML706-CHM.exmail.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.65]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id DE33D73354CC4; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 21:35:15 +0100 (IST) Received: from DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com ([169.254.1.143]) by DFWPML706-CHM.exmail.huawei.com ([10.124.31.210]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 13:35:14 -0700 From: Norman Finn To: Loa Andersson , "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" CC: "detnet@ietf.org" , Pat Thaler Thread-Topic: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol Thread-Index: AQHTQe1baB1t4UjG7k+zw6XAnKmaLaLfJykAgArdEQCAAAskAIAAETgAgAAElQCAARuagIAJ2BJF Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 20:35:13 +0000 Message-ID: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CE745F@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com> References: <86a421bf8a574698847cd368da8ff4bb@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <21ffc7e8b94e415aa5eb3e8eb8080db6@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com>, <53A06B47-89E7-4FF7-8EAA-DF3DB3C3EAF7@pi.nu> In-Reply-To: <53A06B47-89E7-4FF7-8EAA-DF3DB3C3EAF7@pi.nu> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.18.4.35] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 20:35:24 -0000 Layering is clearly spelled out in the architecture. Replication/eliminati= on is in the DetNet Service layer,=0A= and the latency/congestion pieces are in the DetNet Transport layer below i= t. Those are real layers.=0A= They are described as such, and can be readily identified as such in the pa= cket formats by the extra=0A= MPLS and pseudowire-ish labels or the added 802.1 or HSR/PRP tags. (Don't = let the IPv6 format=0A= fool you into thinking we don't have two layers, here.) They can also be s= tacked up; there is no=0A= fundamental reason that an end-to-end rep/elim compound flow can't have one= of its member flows=0A= split and merged at a lower layer, because the network has some flaky links= along its path. Yes:=0A= pswudowires inside MPLS labels inside pseudowires inside MPLS labels.=0A= =0A= Rep/elim can be done at higher layers, already. But, with the current posi= tioning and the packet formats=0A= chosen, there is a good chance that the job can be done in ASICs or FPGAs v= ery close to where things=0A= are done, now. Replication/elimination is somewhat more complex than, but = takes place at=0A= exactly the same layer as, pseudowire stitching. I'm confident that, if th= e users want it, it can be=0A= implemented at a reasonable cost; that's what FPGA sockets are for.=0A= =0A= -- Norm=0A= =0A= ________________________________________=0A= From: detnet [detnet-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Loa Andersson [loa@pi.n= u]=0A= Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 11:58 PM=0A= To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert)=0A= Cc: detnet@ietf.org; Pat Thaler=0A= Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol=0A= =0A= Pascal ,=0A= =0A= Sent from my iPhone=0A= =0A= > On 18 Oct 2017, at 22:03, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) = wrote:=0A= >=0A= > I do not think I said that Loa.=0A= >=0A= > For one thing, slow path is an implementation thing and I was discussing = layers. And then what is put in slow path is another implementation decisio= n.=0A= >=0A= > Rather I said that the function belongs to a layer that should not be exp= ected in an intermediate router. IOW a basic DetNet Router would be implem= enting the DetNet Transport Layer (which is not a Layer 4, confusing...) an= d would not need to reorder or eliminate.=0A= >=0A= > I'm looking at how the DetNet Service Layer is positioned vs. a tradition= al transport layer, considering how the architecture can alleviate the issu= e that you are raising. The architecture is more open than my words here, b= ut I think we need to restrict this function to DetNet End Systems and mayb= e Edge Routers that have a special excursion to L4, like a transport layer = proxy implementing a RED box.=0A= >=0A= > Does that make sense?=0A= =0A= I=92m not sure. Both the architecture (e.g. Figure 1) and the problem state= ment (section 3.5) clearly indicate that both replication and elimination a= re done =93at several points=94, including in the core.=0A= =0A= If we limit replication to the ingress and elimination to the egress this i= s a simple 1+1 protection. I thought replication/elimination points were in= troduced because 1+1 were not considered efficient enough.=0A= =0A= Also if we put all elimination in the egress =93in a layer 4 function=94 we= still don=92t get around the problem. A egress node doing packet processin= g on multiple line cards have to send ALL packets to the =93layer 4 functio= n=94.=0A= =0A= /Loa=0A= >=0A= > Pascal=0A= >=0A= > -----Original Message-----=0A= > From: Loa Andersson [mailto:loa@pi.nu]=0A= > Sent: mercredi 18 octobre 2017 15:47=0A= > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) =0A= > Cc: Pat Thaler ; detnet@ietf.org=0A= > Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol=0A= >=0A= > Pasca),=0A= >=0A= > Are saying that in a DetNet network we=92ll kick ALL packets into the slo= w path in all routers that do elimination?=0A= >=0A= > /Loa=0A= >=0A= > Sent from my iPhone=0A= >=0A= >> On 18 Oct 2017, at 20:45, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) = wrote:=0A= >>=0A= >> Hi Loa:=0A= >>=0A= >> Arguably, elimination and reordering belong to an upper layer - like a l= ayer 4-, that can be run either at the detnet end systems, or at very speci= fic locations in the network where an excursion to L-4 and back down is pe= rmitted. We had text that showed that replication could be done at a lower = layer, but that must have been edited out the architecture, I could not dig= it. I'm full speed preparing a draft on that matter (to be sent to TSVWG),= hopefully I'll push a 00 early next week.=0A= >>=0A= >> All the best,=0A= >>=0A= >> Pascal=0A= >>=0A= >>=0A= >>=0A= >> -----Original Message-----=0A= >> From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Loa=0A= >> Andersson=0A= >> Sent: mercredi 18 octobre 2017 14:05=0A= >> To: Pat Thaler ; detnet@ietf.org=0A= >> Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol=0A= >>=0A= >> Working Group, co-authors,=0A= >>=0A= >> After talking to a number or people I've re-reviewed that the Packet Rep= lication and Elimination Function (PREF). It seems that there is a strong = relationship between router architecture and the possibility to fully perfo= rm this function. Replication is fine with any architecture.=0A= >>=0A= >> However, if you have an architecture with multiple line cards and with p= acket processing on the ingress, performing elimination seems to be very ha= rd, and would require major changes to the routers.=0A= >>=0A= >> As long as you have a one chip router both replication and elimination i= s possible.=0A= >>=0A= >> Since a substantial part of all routers that would be in scope for DetNe= t networks are router with multiple line cards where the packet processing = is done on the ingress cards, the elimination function seems to be a major = problem.=0A= >>=0A= >> We have said that we can do elimination on the out port, but it seems th= at most routers do not have the required packet processing on the egress li= ne cards.=0A= >>=0A= >> /Loa=0A= >>=0A= >> PS=0A= >>=0A= >> Please note that I don't think this is a comment blocking the adoption a= s a wg doc.=0A= >>=0A= >>> On 2017-10-11 16:11, Rodney Cummings wrote:=0A= >>> yes/support=0A= >>>=0A= >>> *From:*detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Pat=0A= >>> Thaler=0A= >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 10, 2017 12:28 PM=0A= >>> *To:* detnet@ietf.org=0A= >>> *Subject:* [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol=0A= >>>=0A= >>> All,=0A= >>>=0A= >>> This is start of a two week poll on making draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol a=0A= >>> working group document. Please send email to the list indicating=0A= >>> "yes/support" or "no/do not support". If indicating no, please state= =0A= >>> your reservations with the document. If yes, please also feel free=0A= >>> to provide comments you'd like to see addressed once the document is=0A= >>> a WG document.=0A= >>>=0A= >>> Please remember that working group adoption is the start of the=0A= >>>=0A= >>> WG's work on the draft, not the end of it. This is not a typical=0A= >>>=0A= >>> adoption call in so far as that the document has captured open=0A= >>>=0A= >>> issues that have previously been raised by the WG and are=0A= >>>=0A= >>> expected to be resolved through normal WG process as the=0A= >>>=0A= >>> document progresses.=0A= >>>=0A= >>>=0A= >>> The poll ends October 24=0A= >>>=0A= >>> Thanks,=0A= >>>=0A= >>> Pat and Lou,=0A= >>>=0A= >>>=0A= >>>=0A= >>> _______________________________________________=0A= >>> detnet mailing list=0A= >>> detnet@ietf.org=0A= >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet=0A= >>>=0A= >>=0A= >> --=0A= >>=0A= >>=0A= >> Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu=0A= >> Senior MPLS Expert=0A= >> Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64=0A= >>=0A= >> _______________________________________________=0A= >> detnet mailing list=0A= >> detnet@ietf.org=0A= >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet=0A= >=0A= =0A= _______________________________________________=0A= detnet mailing list=0A= detnet@ietf.org=0A= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet=0A= From nobody Thu Oct 26 03:50:21 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BB8013F553 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 03:50:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9iJ3FVMK89VR for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 03:50:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x22a.google.com (mail-lf0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3F54113F551 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 03:50:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id b190so3209646lfg.9 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 03:50:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=gn/QhDrBbLaOWiBix/iAygtWxWFGOsyJjpgiQuLrBjQ=; b=pPO5rVv+LwGINmFkfP/uejGj6IHT6pcr4bVmFqEQ2swtHvqAxl2LdgMNsjrQyNc7at is8CBccK2yLmzII4QdNJVGQwFxg3Le3Q6/L3aJ90AzpWKa30Ax5VxP2RvKTTuxTOqF19 jpRgRfKejOLhkaC7huuh4YdZ/bDhiI7XcX3UEp/r56gLgeWwqz8PAhWjKpKZY6WL6na9 WQMDBSm6ZY2CpeCdJiS0fkvgzSG8+KiN0KE84GDOAhJpDb/UB7AvLykvjUnAXVsTT6ih kSPyALLN0hFKPx1l5lAnthpNcIUtOs0m6F4r12ZMOznTIZqA2fq7Of6hy7+sWNvMps6B ruWg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=gn/QhDrBbLaOWiBix/iAygtWxWFGOsyJjpgiQuLrBjQ=; b=cqRN4Uy5vBDbXi1hfBD8C1YIUAV/TcEE+1l1Kcl95kmmtXSHtE71nJWddC1l2N3hF7 iu/G6iDXUnfPZsRGt0pECktbeHUnccDFJB7U+2en2oLPCx/OtuH4Lm3P+4sKXPlHTMEe jwjaGuR6pVyy+7FEMf8kny07fwx2ygRsJ5h44PGP+RXDS8lbDGBq7is/RBORkf9o8h3a wnukTzQrKocHT0pEig+czq6s03qtjixFodsMIo8cxA1T0cR9Kk2EYU0m2cYlTpsTFRWq cL+gGm7yvNgTlgS0YhzPujcJn8a4Uf0KegH9YRrp0hZq/OXwFJDeo2ggwhknXrjRgI/w HIXA== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaWCuNnjGag7Gev6ueLFMFoJQidBkFehXElm4oXCp1tRE8IkQVv1 qg3bqdNAz8ipTzQ/9kOmKDkiHY8I X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+Tsbw6pP4t0RhnQMcF6Y49vGwZ8fuLLA5QBenFzz9WOVRP0O61LQUCwra/KujSAjULZD3Gm8Q== X-Received: by 10.25.161.8 with SMTP id k8mr641861lfe.149.1509015013940; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 03:50:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.126] (host213-123-124-182.in-addr.btopenworld.com. [213.123.124.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h76sm1099010lfi.7.2017.10.26.03.50.12 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 26 Oct 2017 03:50:13 -0700 (PDT) To: Norman Finn , Jouni , 'Loa Andersson' , 'Pat Thaler' , "detnet@ietf.org" References: <078c01d34ca9$cb025cb0$61071610$@gmail.com> <45109864-683b-9367-e6e3-b41a2270dd53@gmail.com> <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CE6AB7@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com> From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: <8a7e5538-3bf3-2749-e897-c29611a5293c@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 11:50:10 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3DF0466E9510274382F5B74499ACD6F8CE6AB7@DFWPML704-CHM.exmail.huawei.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 10:50:19 -0000 On 24/10/2017 19:54, Norman Finn wrote: > Several good points have been made by several people. I'll add and/or reinforce some, and contest some others: > > Splitting out replication/elimination: > > Any router can punt replication/elimination to software, and do a great job on replication/elimination, but be useless from the latency standpoint. I agree. > I have developed and shipped an awful lot of federated devices (line cards + mid- or back-plane + controller) that would see no significant hit on performance when executing packet replication/elimination, though they would have tight resource constraints on the number of flows supported. In the core there is a real risk that this would be tight to the point of limited use and having huge operational and commercial difficulties. For example having to create sub optimal paths to work around capacity limits and having to deal with rationing such resources amongst competing customers. > I have shipped quite a number of devices that could do a great job on replication/elimination, but only if you use a chunk of an FPGA facility. That might mean sacrificing some other feature, presumably one not needed in this environment. This is not so easy in the WAN. > I have also been associated with devices that are cost-engineered and optimized for a function so tightly that they can accommodate no such feature as this. The simple statement, "packet replication/elimination requires a one-chip router" is much too simple to be useful, and I would object to inserting it. I am not sure that a one chip constraint is adequate. Equally I think there are processing architectures in federated architectures that can be made to work. The issue is the cost in hardware, the cost in performance and the cost in operational and commercial complexity. > > The "average" one-chip device is likely to find replication/elimination easier than the "average" federated device. That means nothing. What matters is which of *my* devices can implement this feature. IMO it's a bad idea to split the document in two based on, "some implementations may find it difficult." Lists of reasons why it may or may not be difficult (INCLUDING MINE!) are pointless, though fun to write. I am afraid I disagree. We should disclose why this is a much harder problem than it appears on the surface. > Now, if more than one vendor steps in and says, "I want this split out, because my devices can't do it efficiently," I'm ready to listen and change things. In the meantime, I think it's a good idea to put something in the document to the effect of, "before you get all enthusiastic about this feature, please look at this potential implementation impediment, and see whether your devices will find it difficult." I think that we need more detail that than that in the text. > > I would like to see more mention in the DetNet data plane drafts of flows that do not require replication/elimination, in order to make it clear that DetNet does not equal rep/elim. (I think they're too focused on that one aspect, because, of course, it is the tough one to handle.) I do agree with that. > > But, the point of DetNet is twofold: 1) bounded worst-case latency; and 2) extraordinarily low packet loss. So, I do want all the main elements in the architecture document. > > In-order delivery: > > The architecture draft does not say much about in-order delivery. 802.1CB (frame replication and elimination) makes it a specific non-goal, though it gives you clues about how it could be done. The use cases draft states explicitly that it is not interested in in-order delivery for video streams, because it's too hard. The difficulty of in-order delivery has been discussed a lot, both in IEEE and in DetNet, an the conclusion was, "forget about it." > > Delivery order is therefore not an argument against replication/elimination. Ah in that case we really need text on that. It would also be useful to have text on the issue of whether elimination can be best effort or not. My comments have been made on the basis that complete elimination of duplicates was required. If we relax that constraint then the implementation becomes easier, although not without a significant hit in terms of number of flows or performance in many implementation architectures. > > In general, routers do not offer guarantees of in-order delivery, except insofar as sequence numbering in various forms provides an indication that mis-ordering has happened, and an opportunity to correct it. Some applications find that useful. DetNet changes nothing in that regard. This tends not to be done in the routers but in the applications. > > I agree, however, that there may be a blind spot in the drafts with this regard (generated by the authors' over-familiarity with the subject). Some mention of in-order delivery might be useful, along the following lines: A. For many DetNet applications, the transmission interval for any given flow is longer than the delivery time, so the opportunity for out-of-order delivery is strictly limited, and can be engineered out. I agree that it is limited, I do not currently hold the degree of certainty that it can be engineered out expressed in this statement. > B. Given point A, the use of dual fixed paths and rep/elim, along with worst-case latency guarantees, provides useful limits on out-of-order delivery, even when the paths are much extended by DetNet. Whether this belongs in architecture, dp-sol, or some other draft is a good question. ... but text on this subject clearly needs to go somewhere. - Stewart > > -- Norm > > ________________________________________ > From: detnet [detnet-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Stewart Bryant [stewart.bryant@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 3:05 AM > To: Jouni; 'Loa Andersson'; 'Pat Thaler'; detnet@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol > > Unfortunately I don't think that it is quite as simple as requiring > single chip implementations. You have to look at the internal design of > that chip and the performance requirements. > > Elimination needs to be an atomic operation in which the sequence number > is locked, read, compared with the packet, modified and written back to > the Detnet parameter set for that detwire. There are two difficulties to > be considered here, firstly that it is not uncommon for Network > Processors to be multi-core and secondly if there are a significant > number of detwires, as there might be passing through a elim/rep node in > the core of the network, it likely that the parameter set will be held > away from the processing cores, possibly in memory requiring a DMA to > fetch the data. Thus doing the elimination in these architectures will > stall the pipeline and represent a big performance hit even in a single > chip router. > > Now let's go up a level. What is being proposed here is a major change > in IP/MPLS forwarding. Pseudowires, on which you model the detnet > design, did not make any such change. The operation in the S-PE was > identical the common MPLS operation of label swap and forward to a > tunnel. Something that can be compressed into a single re-write > operation all the way down to the MAC imposition. I am deeply concerned > that my making detnet look like PWs people will assume that > implementation will be as simple and effective as PWs. Thus I think the > current description is misleading. > > In mainstream forwarding with two exceptions we have a design that is > fully asynchronous allowing any forwarding component to proceed without > the need to liaise with any other component in the forwarding system. > The two exceptions are counters, which look like RMW, but there are > pipeline tricks that can be applied such that RMW is not actually done. > The other is packet ordering. Packet ordering is only best effort and is > not maintained through convergence. The reason we do this to help TCP, > but the failure is only a soft failure (some TCP implementations may > close the window but they recover). On the other hand we are told that > some detnet applications take a fatal error if there is ever a misorder. > Avoiding any misorder under any circumstances required analysis of the > routing layer behaviour that I have not yet seen reported in this project. > > There may be internal tricks that can be played in the internal design > of forwarders to make this work, even for multi-chassis designs, but the > cost of this is the removal of a number of router architectures from the > set from which the forwarder designer can choose, and to me that is a > big decision that requires significant discussion amongst those with > appropriate expertise. Unfortunately few of those engineers actively > engage with the IETF because it is so long since we last changed an > IP/MPLS invariant of this magnitude. > > My view is that we need a serious discussion in the IETF about what > invariants we need to maintain in the forwarding path across the core. > Wherever the consensus of that discussion is, needs to be reflected > carefully and fully in this document if it is to go ahead. > > What I think might be a better approach is to eliminate elimination from > this document and put it in a separate RFC. That way it can be made much > clearer to operators what the consequences of elimination are and > whether it is supported by a particular product. > > - Stewart > > > > On 24/10/2017 10:23, Jouni wrote: >> Hi Loa, >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Loa Andersson >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 15:05 PM >>> To: Pat Thaler ; detnet@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol >>> >>> Working Group, co-authors, >>> >>> After talking to a number or people I've re-reviewed that the Packet >>> Replication and Elimination Function (PREF). It seems that there is a >>> strong relationship between router architecture and the possibility to >>> fully perform this function. Replication is fine with any architecture. >>> >>> However, if you have an architecture with multiple line cards and with >>> packet processing on the ingress, performing elimination seems to be very >>> hard, and would require major changes to the routers. >>> >>> As long as you have a one chip router both replication and elimination is >>> possible. >> This was our lowest hanging fruit conclusion during the numerous DT discussions around this topic. >> >> >>> Since a substantial part of all routers that would be in scope for DetNet >>> networks are router with multiple line cards where the packet processing >>> is done on the ingress cards, the elimination function seems to be a major >>> problem. >>> >>> We have said that we can do elimination on the out port, but it seems that >>> most routers do not have the required packet processing on the egress line >>> cards. >> I would say that like some other assumptions we have within DetNet we should understand that certain features are likely to be challenging to the existing design/silicon/software and we cannot get stuck into that. How big the delta will be to existing is IMHO important. >> >> - Jouni >> >> >> >>> /Loa >>> >>> PS >>> >>> Please note that I don't think this is a comment blocking the adoption as >>> a wg doc. >>> >>> On 2017-10-11 16:11, Rodney Cummings wrote: >>>> yes/support >>>> >>>> *From:*detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Pat >>>> Thaler >>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 10, 2017 12:28 PM >>>> *To:* detnet@ietf.org >>>> *Subject:* [Detnet] WG adoption poll draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol >>>> >>>> All, >>>> >>>> This is start of a two week poll on making draft-dt-detnet-dp-sol a >>>> working group document. Please send email to the list indicating >>>> "yes/support" or "no/do not support". If indicating no, please state >>>> your reservations with the document. If yes, please also feel free to >>>> provide comments you'd like to see addressed once the document is a WG >>>> document. >>>> >>>> Please remember that working group adoption is the start of the >>>> >>>> WG's work on the draft, not the end of it. This is not a typical >>>> >>>> adoption call in so far as that the document has captured open >>>> >>>> issues that have previously been raised by the WG and are >>>> >>>> expected to be resolved through normal WG process as the >>>> >>>> document progresses. >>>> >>>> >>>> The poll ends October 24 >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Pat and Lou, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> detnet mailing list >>>> detnet@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >>>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu >>> Senior MPLS Expert >>> Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> detnet mailing list >>> detnet@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >> _______________________________________________ >> detnet mailing list >> detnet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > _______________________________________________ > detnet mailing list > detnet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Mon Oct 30 02:35:05 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A7D913F967 for ; 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FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: ericsson.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 2d9daad8-cdcc-46a4-5dc7-08d51f7979f2 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 30 Oct 2017 09:34:53.8661 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR07MB1005 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA02Sb0hTURjGO/febXej4XFpvlhCzaQ0nWV9MBTLKIhkZlLgorKVNx3q1F0T rS/6wcp/5ULyb0xzaGmmiaVIaU7KuQ85TEX7y9JIYWVNUXRh7e4a9O33Ps/hec9zODQpW6F8 aY02m9Fp1WlyoYSqTujeEXLQsaTaUzIYGO501FKH0DGjcYWIQ2ckkUlMmiaH0YVGXZCkGAs9 Mmdx7rNfjaJ81IGLkZgGvB8WejtExUhCy/Aggof6RZIfzAj+9P0WcAOFy0homGwieOcuAUNN VYgfphE8qTWTXJgQH4GezjoBx154J1y3TyCON+FzMNZlI3n9PNx56UA8h8GPplURxxQOgPGu VYJjKT4LLwo/unUZVkJd/bL7vBjHwoJ11pVP0wj7ga0tnJNJ7APvZgwE3weD8fkIybM3zE2v ua+DXGud/fnruhyKKlvX2Q9GDSXuLoBNItBbyteDFPBU/x3xrATj+zKK2wtYC5ZllpeDYL60 QMBzBJgbpyieU8Fg/UrxmWMC6LTdE/LGVvjp/EDwxn0h2IqqiHIUUvNfiRrXDhIHQntvKC9v h4oSm6jG/SyeMFw9Q9UjqgV5swx7MT05bJ+C0WkusWyGVqFlsjuR60MMdDkDetBbe7QJYRrJ N0oNn5ZUMoE6h81LNyGgSbmX9MukS5ImqfOuMrqMRN2VNIY1oS00JfeRRvdZE2Q4WZ3NpDJM JqP75xK02DcfyeJaI8Q3DntGrp2c2D1VOazY9ShrdPyB77fNN8VZzZdTY0/bF7rjr90e8njV PD9eOhATtM3ebo5Uqfwtx2ll45zl1Inaz5ZEQ9ZIgcNfQdaFBj9+XbwYX9XSpllVLurX+qNi wo+23wo2SGfr3igOCMLEVmP5SK4wqjp9Q198RYOcYlPUe4NIHav+C1I3Pp0MAwAA Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] FW: New Version Notification for draft-farkas-detnet-flow-information-model-02.txt X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 09:34:59 -0000 SGksDQpkcmFmdCBvbiBGbG93IGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIG1vZGVsIGhhcyBiZWVuIHVwZGF0ZWQgYW5k IA0KZXh0ZW5kZWQgd2l0aCBzb21lIHNlcnZpY2UgbW9kZWwgcmVsYXRlZCB0ZXh0Lg0KQ2hlZXJz DQpCYWxhJ3pzDQoNCi0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQoNCkEgbmV3IHZlcnNpb24g b2YgSS1ELCBkcmFmdC1mYXJrYXMtZGV0bmV0LWZsb3ctaW5mb3JtYXRpb24tbW9kZWwtMDIudHh0 DQpoYXMgYmVlbiBzdWNjZXNzZnVsbHkgc3VibWl0dGVkIGJ5IEJhbMOhenMgVmFyZ2EgYW5kIHBv c3RlZCB0byB0aGUgSUVURiByZXBvc2l0b3J5Lg0KDQpOYW1lOgkJZHJhZnQtZmFya2FzLWRldG5l dC1mbG93LWluZm9ybWF0aW9uLW1vZGVsDQpSZXZpc2lvbjoJMDINClRpdGxlOgkJRGV0TmV0IEZs b3cgSW5mb3JtYXRpb24gTW9kZWwNCkRvY3VtZW50IGRhdGU6CTIwMTctMTAtMzANCkdyb3VwOgkJ SW5kaXZpZHVhbCBTdWJtaXNzaW9uDQpQYWdlczoJCTIyDQpVUkw6ICAgICAgICAgICAgaHR0cHM6 Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaW50ZXJuZXQtZHJhZnRzL2RyYWZ0LWZhcmthcy1kZXRuZXQtZmxvdy1p bmZvcm1hdGlvbi1tb2RlbC0wMi50eHQNClN0YXR1czogICAgICAgICBodHRwczovL2RhdGF0cmFj a2VyLmlldGYub3JnL2RvYy9kcmFmdC1mYXJrYXMtZGV0bmV0LWZsb3ctaW5mb3JtYXRpb24tbW9k ZWwvDQpIdG1saXplZDogICAgICAgaHR0cHM6Ly90b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sL2RyYWZ0LWZh cmthcy1kZXRuZXQtZmxvdy1pbmZvcm1hdGlvbi1tb2RlbC0wMg0KSHRtbGl6ZWQ6ICAgICAgIGh0 dHBzOi8vZGF0YXRyYWNrZXIuaWV0Zi5vcmcvZG9jL2h0bWwvZHJhZnQtZmFya2FzLWRldG5ldC1m bG93LWluZm9ybWF0aW9uLW1vZGVsLTAyDQpEaWZmOiAgICAgICAgICAgaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0 Zi5vcmcvcmZjZGlmZj91cmwyPWRyYWZ0LWZhcmthcy1kZXRuZXQtZmxvdy1pbmZvcm1hdGlvbi1t b2RlbC0wMg0KDQpBYnN0cmFjdDoNCiAgIFRoaXMgZG9jdW1lbnQgZGVzY3JpYmVzIGZsb3cgYW5k IHNlcnZpY2UgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24gbW9kZWwgZm9yDQogICBEZXRlcm1pbmlzdGljIE5ldHdvcmtp bmcgKERldE5ldCkuICBUaGUgRGV0TmV0IHNlcnZpY2UgaXMgcHJvdmlkZWQNCiAgIGVpdGhlciBm b3IgYSBMYXllciAzIG9yIGEgTGF5ZXIgMiBmbG93LiAgVGhpcyBkb2N1bWVudCBwcm92aWRlcw0K ICAgRGV0TmV0IGZsb3cgYW5kIHNlcnZpY2UgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24gbW9kZWwgYm90aCBmb3IgTGF5 ZXIgMyBhbmQgTGF5ZXINCiAgIDIgZmxvd3MgaW4gYW4gaW50ZWdyYXRlZCBmYXNoaW9uLg0KDQog ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgDQoNCg0KUGxlYXNlIG5vdGUgdGhhdCBpdCBtYXkgdGFr ZSBhIGNvdXBsZSBvZiBtaW51dGVzIGZyb20gdGhlIHRpbWUgb2Ygc3VibWlzc2lvbiB1bnRpbCB0 aGUgaHRtbGl6ZWQgdmVyc2lvbiBhbmQgZGlmZiBhcmUgYXZhaWxhYmxlIGF0IHRvb2xzLmlldGYu b3JnLg0KDQpUaGUgSUVURiBTZWNyZXRhcmlhdA0KDQo= From nobody Mon Oct 30 11:33:14 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6971913F609; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 11:33:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: detnet@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.63.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150938839239.7910.17236752710582963665@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 11:33:12 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-security-01.txt X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 18:33:12 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Deterministic Networking WG of the IETF. Title : Deterministic Networking (DetNet) Security Considerations Authors : Tal Mizrahi Ethan Grossman Andrew J. Hacker Subir Das John Dowdell Henrik Austad Kevin Stanton Norman Finn Filename : draft-ietf-detnet-security-01.txt Pages : 39 Date : 2017-10-30 Abstract: A deterministic network is one that can carry data flows for real- time applications with extremely low data loss rates and bounded latency. Deterministic networks have been successfully deployed in real-time operational technology (OT) applications for some years (for example [ARINC664P7]). However, such networks are typically isolated from external access, and thus the security threat from external attackers is low. IETF Deterministic Networking (DetNet) specifies a set of technologies that enable creation of deterministic networks on IP-based networks of potentially wide area (on the scale of a corporate network) potentially bringing the OT network into contact with Information Technology (IT) traffic and security threats that lie outside of a tightly controlled and bounded area (such as the internals of an aircraft). These DetNet technologies have not previously been deployed together on a wide area IP-based network, and thus can present security considerations that may be new to IP- based wide area network designers. This draft, intended for use by DetNet network designers, provides insight into these security considerations. In addition, this draft collects all security- related statements from the various DetNet drafts (Architecture, Use Cases, etc) into a single location Section 7. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-security/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-security-01 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-detnet-security-01 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-detnet-security-01 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Oct 30 12:51:30 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DABE13FAF7; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 12:51:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: detnet@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.63.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150939308861.7769.14050796740266329335@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 12:51:28 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-04.txt X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 19:51:29 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Deterministic Networking WG of the IETF. Title : Deterministic Networking Architecture Authors : Norman Finn Pascal Thubert Balázs Varga János Farkas Filename : draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-04.txt Pages : 41 Date : 2017-10-30 Abstract: Deterministic Networking (DetNet) provides a capability to carry specified unicast or multicast data flows for real-time applications with extremely low data loss rates and bounded latency. Techniques used include: 1) reserving data plane resources for individual (or aggregated) DetNet flows in some or all of the intermediate nodes (e.g. bridges or routers) along the path of the flow; 2) providing explicit routes for DetNet flows that do not rapidly change with the network topology; and 3) distributing data from DetNet flow packets over time and/or space to ensure delivery of each packet's data' in spite of the loss of a path. The capabilities can be managed by configuration, or by manual or automatic network management. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-architecture/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-04 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-04 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-detnet-architecture-04 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Oct 30 13:55:48 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CE1113F43E for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 13:55:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.62 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.62 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UznigsOmkcOa for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 13:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com (mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com [67.231.144.242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5AE1E13AF1A for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 13:55:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0045961.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id v9UKsrx1006906 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 13:55:38 -0700 Received: from dlb-xchpw03.dolby.net (dcd-outbound.dolby.com [67.216.187.124]) by mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2dvne1b961-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 13:55:38 -0700 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) by DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 13:55:36 -0700 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) by DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 13:55:36 -0700 From: "Grossman, Ethan A." To: "detnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-security-01.txt Thread-Index: AQHTUa2a+V/uAtsYPkmS+mk2wpfgfqL8uFjA Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 20:55:36 +0000 Message-ID: References: <150938839239.7910.17236752710582963665@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <150938839239.7910.17236752710582963665@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.207.133.62] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-10-30_07:, , signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-security-01.txt X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 20:55:47 -0000 Hi All, This update to the DetNet Security draft includes the following work by the= Security Design Team:=20 1) Clarify existing material including Impact section. 2) Rewrite section Use Cases by Common Themes to use "statements" instead o= f "questions".=20 3) Add new use cases to table Impact of Attacks by Use Case Industry. We will present a brief update on the DetNet Security draft at IETF 100, an= d given that it is now a Workgroup draft, we hope to have some discussion w= ith the group about how to engage the WG in bringing the draft to the next = level.=20 Thanks, Ethan (as Editor, DetNet Security draft).=20 -----Original Message----- From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet-drafts@= ietf.org Sent: Monday, October 30, 2017 11:33 AM To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: detnet@ietf.org Subject: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-security-01.txt A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the Deterministic Networking WG of the IETF. Title : Deterministic Networking (DetNet) Security Consid= erations Authors : Tal Mizrahi Ethan Grossman Andrew J. Hacker Subir Das John Dowdell Henrik Austad Kevin Stanton Norman Finn Filename : draft-ietf-detnet-security-01.txt Pages : 39 Date : 2017-10-30 Abstract: A deterministic network is one that can carry data flows for real- time applications with extremely low data loss rates and bounded latency. Deterministic networks have been successfully deployed in real-time operational technology (OT) applications for some years (for example [ARINC664P7]). However, such networks are typically isolated from external access, and thus the security threat from external attackers is low. IETF Deterministic Networking (DetNet) specifies a set of technologies that enable creation of deterministic networks on IP-based networks of potentially wide area (on the scale of a corporate network) potentially bringing the OT network into contact with Information Technology (IT) traffic and security threats that lie outside of a tightly controlled and bounded area (such as the internals of an aircraft). These DetNet technologies have not previously been deployed together on a wide area IP-based network, and thus can present security considerations that may be new to IP- based wide area network designers. This draft, intended for use by DetNet network designers, provides insight into these security considerations. In addition, this draft collects all security- related statements from the various DetNet drafts (Architecture, Use Cases, etc) into a single location Section 7. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-security/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-security-01 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-detnet-security-01 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-detnet-security-01 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet From nobody Mon Oct 30 15:17:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: detnet@ietf.org Delivered-To: detnet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E126C13FAB3; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 15:17:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: detnet@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.63.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150940184589.28246.7343825609485606600@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 15:17:25 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Detnet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-00.txt X-BeenThere: detnet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Discussions on Deterministic Networking BoF and Proposed WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 22:17:26 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Deterministic Networking WG of the IETF. Title : DetNet Data Plane Encapsulation Authors : Jouni Korhonen Loa Andersson Yuanlong Jiang Norman Finn Balázs Varga Janos Farkas Carlos J. Bernardos Tal Mizrahi Lou Berger Filename : draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-00.txt Pages : 36 Date : 2017-10-30 Abstract: This document specifies Deterministic Networking data plane encapsulation solutions. The described data plane solutions can be applied over either IP or MPLS Packet Switched Networks. Comment #1: SB> An overarching comment is that the early part of the document is really fundamental architecture and perhaps belongs in the arch draft, leaving this draft to be more specific about solutions. Indeed if we cannot find a single solution that maps to both IP and MPLS underlays I wonder if we should publish two specialist RFCs? Discussion: One document at the beginning, split into two if/when needed. Would be post adoption in any case. Comment #2: SB> Whilst I think we should look for a common solution to IP and MPLS I do not think that this is where the DT ended up. Discussion: Agree. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-00 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-detnet-dp-sol-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/