Subject: Re: [dispatch] Open talk and investigation about HIP and SIP/IMS

From: "Tschofenig, Hannes (NSN - FI/Espoo)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 17:52:36 +0300

Hi Gao, 
 
I read through your mail a couple of times but I was not quite sure that
I understood your line of thought. 
When someone does not want to use SIP (but HTTP instead) then let them
do. There shouldn't be any problem with that. 
 
The RADIUS and Diameter based Authentication, Authorization, and
Accounting (AAA) infrastructure is not application independent. RADIUS
and Diameter have largely been utilized for network access
authentication and for a few selected applications but have not found
widespread usage for web applications. There you find other protocols
being used. Also not a problem as such either. 
 
Having said that I am not sure how you draw the conclusion that HIP
might be the right protocol given that it is not a AAA protocol in the
first place nor particularly well aligned with any of the mentioned
protocols. 
 
I personally prefer to start with a problem statement first and then to
figure out whether people agree with it. Subsequently, one can
brainstorm about the appropriate protocol that addresses the gaps.
 
Ciao
Hannes

________________________________

	From: [email-masked]
[mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of ext [email-masked]
	Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 6:55 AM
	To: [email-masked]
	Subject: [dispatch] Open talk and investigation about HIP and
SIP/IMS

	Hi, 
	
	For people caring about SIP/IMS's network management level, I
think one application independency AAA infrastructure is future
direction for SIP/IMS. I'd like to know how many people have the same
interest? If you have any comments/feeling/suggestion for this topic,
feel free to go on. 
	
	Telecom Core Network 
	
	IMS(IP Multimedia Subsystem) is aimed for unified user
management, unified authentication, unified policy/charging and unified
service control, but it is tightly coupled with SIP. While the telecom
core network operators want to deploy any non-sip application, they find
that the unified platform(IMS) would not be suitable.   
	
	We may conclude from the situation that, if telecom (core
network) operators want to make one infrastructure(unified user
management, unified authentication, unified policy/charging and unified
service control) suitable for any application(sip and non-sip), they
need make an sip decoupling AAA infrastructure at first. 
	
	Making IMS's AAA based on HIP and IMS's multimedia level still
on sip, would make IMS's infrastructure open for any other protocol and
application. And if the telecom (core network) operators want to embrace
more and more non-sip application, HIP may be the only way. 
	
	Meanwhile, Could Computing and even M2M network also can get
benefit from such application independency AAA infrastructure: 
	
	Clouding Computing 
	
	Some standard cloud/grid computing technology is based on Web.
On the web platform, it is easy to bulid one AAA infrastructure and open
for appliaction such as SOA. But if we want to build web and
non-web(such as RAI) application on the same platform, there's the same
problem IMS has. 
	So, if IT industry's could computing want to embrace non-web
application, HIP may be the same way again. 
	
	M2M Network 
	Machine to machine network is hot now. But it also need one
application independency AAA infrastructure as platform for all the
conceivable application protocols. HIP is still a good choice for it. 
	
	Thanks, 
	
	Gao 
	
	===================================
	Zip    : 210012
	Tel    : 87211
	Tel2   :(+86)-025-52877211
	e_mail : [email-masked]
	===================================
	
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---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 10:25:44 +0800

Hi Hannes,

Thanks for your response sincerely first.

AAA's kernel is identity. My proposal is that using HIP's identity(such as 
HIT) as the kernel of AAA. While HIP can be used for all kinds of 
application level protocol, such as SIP, HTTP and so on, then the AAA can 
be used for more than one application level protocol. And if operators 
deploy this kind of network, they can using one infrastructure for more 
than one application.

Using SIP/IMS as example, user management, registration, authentication 
and PCC(Authorization, and Accounting) can be implemented in the 
infrastructure. And SIP application can only focus on session/call 
control. Further, if the operators want to deploy a new application beyond 
SIP, the infrastructure would be reusable.

This concept is raw now, so I'd like to hear more of your comments/feeling 
to light it up.

Regards,

Gao

"Tschofenig, Hannes (NSN - FI/Espoo)" <[email-masked]> 
2010-05-02 22:52

收件人
<[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>
抄送

主题
RE: [dispatch] Open talk and investigation about HIP and SIP/IMS

Hi Gao, 
 
I read through your mail a couple of times but I was not quite sure that I 
understood your line of thought. 
When someone does not want to use SIP (but HTTP instead) then let them do. 
There shouldn't be any problem with that. 

The RADIUS and Diameter based Authentication, Authorization, and 
Accounting (AAA) infrastructure is not application independent. RADIUS and 
Diameter have largely been utilized for network access authentication and 
for a few selected applications but have not found widespread usage for 
web applications. There you find other protocols being used. Also not a 
problem as such either. 

Having said that I am not sure how you draw the conclusion that HIP might 
be the right protocol given that it is not a AAA protocol in the first 
place nor particularly well aligned with any of the mentioned protocols. 

I personally prefer to start with a problem statement first and then to 
figure out whether people agree with it. Subsequently, one can brainstorm 
about the appropriate protocol that addresses the gaps.

Ciao
Hannes

From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On 
Behalf Of ext [email-masked]
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 6:55 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [dispatch] Open talk and investigation about HIP and SIP/IMS

Hi, 

For people caring about SIP/IMS's network management level, I think one 
application independency AAA infrastructure is future direction for 
SIP/IMS. I'd like to know how many people have the same interest? If you 
have any comments/feeling/suggestion for this topic, feel free to go on. 

Telecom Core Network 

IMS(IP Multimedia Subsystem) is aimed for unified user management, unified 
authentication, unified policy/charging and unified service control, but 
it is tightly coupled with SIP. While the telecom core network operators 
want to deploy any non-sip application, they find that the unified 
platform(IMS) would not be suitable.   

We may conclude from the situation that, if telecom (core network) 
operators want to make one infrastructure(unified user management, unified 
authentication, unified policy/charging and unified service control) 
suitable for any application(sip and non-sip), they need make an sip 
decoupling AAA infrastructure at first. 

Making IMS's AAA based on HIP and IMS's multimedia level still on sip, 
would make IMS's infrastructure open for any other protocol and 
application. And if the telecom (core network) operators want to embrace 
more and more non-sip application, HIP may be the only way. 

Meanwhile, Could Computing and even M2M network also can get benefit from 
such application independency AAA infrastructure: 

Clouding Computing 

Some standard cloud/grid computing technology is based on Web. On the web 
platform, it is easy to bulid one AAA infrastructure and open for 
appliaction such as SOA. But if we want to build web and non-web(such as 
RAI) application on the same platform, there's the same problem IMS has. 
So, if IT industry's could computing want to embrace non-web application, 
HIP may be the same way again. 

M2M Network 
Machine to machine network is hot now. But it also need one application 
independency AAA infrastructure as platform for all the conceivable 
application protocols. HIP is still a good choice for it. 

Thanks, 

Gao 

===================================
Zip    : 210012
Tel    : 87211
Tel2   :(+86)-025-52877211
e_mail : [email-masked]
===================================
--------------------------------------------------------
ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this mail is 
solely property of the sender's organization. This mail communication is 
confidential. Recipients named above are obligated to maintain secrecy and 
are not permitted to disclose the contents of this communication to 
others.
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended 
solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. 
If you have received this email in error please notify the originator of 
the message. Any views expressed in this message are those of the 
individual sender.
This message has been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam 
system.

--------------------------------------------------------
ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this mail is solely property of the sender's organization. This mail communication is confidential. Recipients named above are obligated to maintain secrecy and are not permitted to disclose the contents of this communication to others.
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the originator of the message. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender.
This message has been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam system.

---

From: Tom Taylor <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 22:58:30 -0400

By using HIT, you are equating the subscription with the device rather than the
user. How well would that work if the user transferred a SIM card from one
device to another?

> This concept is raw now, so I'd like to hear more of your comments/feeling 
...

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 11:19:37 +0800

Hi Tom,

Considering SIM card, I suggest SIM card itself has HIT, while not the 
phone.

And further, use HIP/HIT as VPN-like thing. User register by software, and 
then get a virtual network established by HIP. And upon this virtual 
network, any application run on it is secure and mobility, and 
manageable(from operators' perspective). This would be more convenience 
for users. And operators can use USB digital credential as HIT to improve 
security. 

Technically, I propose using HIT as an application-independent identity. 
And the HIT can binding with virtual host/machine/thing.

Thanks,

Gao

Tom Taylor <[email-masked]> 
2010-05-04 10:58

收件人
[email-masked]
抄送
"Tschofenig, Hannes (NSN - FI/Espoo)" <[email-masked]>, 
[email-masked]
主题
Re: [dispatch] Open talk and investigation about HIP and SIP/IMS

By using HIT, you are equating the subscription with the device rather 
than the
user. How well would that work if the user transferred a SIM card from one
device to another?

...

---

From: Hannes Tschofenig <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 09:05:27 -0700

Hi Gao,

[email-masked] wrote:
> AAA's kernel is identity. My proposal is that using HIP's
> identity(such as HIT) as the kernel of AAA. While HIP can be used for
> all kinds of application level protocol, such as SIP, HTTP and so on,
> then the AAA can be used for more than one application level protocol.
> And if operators deploy this kind of network, they can using one
> infrastructure for more than one application. 
What's wrong with SIP URIs?

>
> Using SIP/IMS as example, user management, registration,
> authentication and PCC(Authorization, and Accounting) can be
> implemented in the infrastructure. And SIP application can only focus
> on session/call control. Further, if the operators want to deploy a
> new application beyond SIP, the infrastructure would be reusable.

When you say that the infrastructure is reusable what infrastructure are
you talking about? Backend authentication servers (like HLR, AAA server,
..)?

>
> This concept is raw now, so I'd like to hear more of your
> comments/feeling to light it up.

Ciao
Hannes

> *"Tschofenig, Hannes (NSN - FI/Espoo)" <[email-masked]>*
>
> 2010-05-02 22:52
>
> 	
> 收件人
> I read through your mail a couple of times but I was not quite sure
> that I understood your line of thought.
> I personally prefer to start with a problem statement first and then
> to figure out whether people agree with it. Subsequently, one can
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
> *On Behalf Of *ext [email-masked]*
> Sent:* Friday, April 30, 2010 6:55 AM*
> To:* [email-masked]*
> Subject:* [dispatch] Open talk and investigation about HIP and SIP/IMS
>
>
> Hi,
>
> For people caring about SIP/IMS's network management level, I think
> one application independency AAA infrastructure is future direction
> for SIP/IMS. I'd like to know how many people have the same interest?
> If you have any comments/feeling/suggestion for this topic, feel free
> to go on.
>
> Telecom Core Network
>
> IMS(IP Multimedia Subsystem) is aimed for unified user management,
> unified authentication, unified policy/charging and unified service
> control, but it is tightly coupled with SIP. While the telecom core
> network operators want to deploy any non-sip application, they find
> operators want to make one infrastructure(unified user management,
> unified authentication, unified policy/charging and unified service
> control) suitable for any application(sip and non-sip), they need make
> an sip decoupling AAA infrastructure at first.
>
> application. And if the telecom (core network) operators want to
> embrace more and more non-sip application, HIP may be the only way.
> *
> Meanwhile, Could Computing and even M2M network also can get benefit
> from such application independency AAA infrastructure:*
>
> Clouding Computing
>
> Some standard cloud/grid computing technology is based on Web. On the
> web platform, it is easy to bulid one AAA infrastructure and open for
> appliaction such as SOA. But if we want to build web and non-web(such
> as RAI) application on the same platform, there's the same problem IMS
> has.
> ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this
> mail is solely property of the sender's organization. This mail
> maintain secrecy and are not permitted to disclose the contents of
> this communication to others.
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> [email-masked]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 09:08:53 +0800

Hi Hannes,

> What's wrong with SIP URIs?

From SIP pespective, there's no wrong with it. But if someone/organization 
choose SIP's identity as the kernel of it's AAA infrastructure, this 
infrastructure would be limited for SIP usage. One example is 3GPP's IMS. 
> you talking about? Backend authentication servers (like HLR, AAA server,

Yes, such equipment is included in the reusable infrastructure. And 
PCC(policy and charging) is also included.
Further, CSCF can be enhanced as HIP registration/rendezvous server.

The final benefit of thie enhancement is this infrastructure can be open 
for any application protocol, including SIP. And the meanwhile, as the 
infrastructure level mechanism, such as registration, AAA, PCC, and 
mobility, has been implemented in the infrastructure, session application 
level(SIP) can cut down such mechanism.

Regards,

Gao