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Tue, 1 Sep 2020 04:04:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxusgaltgw05.schlund.de ([10.72.72.51]) by mrelay.perfora.net (mreueus002 [74.208.5.2]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MclnD-1jvoK72Zmb-00HsFr; Tue, 01 Sep 2020 13:04:46 +0200 Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2020 07:04:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Timothy Mcsweeney To: Brian Carpenter , Brian Carpenter via Datatracker , gen-art@ietf.org Cc: draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org Message-ID: <1066090379.166058.1598958286518@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <159893058662.23844.17177953972396775177@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <159893058662.23844.17177953972396775177@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.3-Rev19 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Zyt50v0bjsXXs7bgnuIWul36EueAya5u0u1oZ7EnQ9XUsF0CQAm FWtC0URWTzsNVdZt6Hn+0wdogJOh5TBGOsvM697wzmAFrVL4+02FZYlTsoWiXKiST2z62kz /PIIxJqWwgCkiiavIeyY+CQqC6O6HJU2WE4Le5NfHtTHloNmlSC2Y0SDq33Um8sdETxfOCv MPIGqHcgAUlTDvK9iRSCQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:GnMgkPWrQFo=:2xBKgNcBQWu7SW61n4dhzL Hwlae01CtUUAXGrNYqGl6yrk6WQhrL+qQsa3LWHIJWS4yJF8BJAtTXqdxGRwYQxVpE/Z8U6IJ +TwqrusG+Ly0F/R0vyjWoOqBGXBLoFOVVu4y1NK6oDVlYVRb/AGGI53MUDaCduohNXfT9jsJZ DN2yDGLTNsjJkhMAQw+s6pg3S3y/b8mMt0qfR2uDZ4UB/F4zGC6CVyEu2+vtWgBlHAs/c7DMx w0KGgrOn6m/WXkg7+B8Ot8DawxnkCoy3UR3iPDPn29Ic+/XsdGCsh74cwg9t1P+GwJcj3RDbB 4q5ZphSvBIID4YHIZCM+xa1iuYQfJnvvJm7JckOxkLj/FzyeTCNPWjvLjXSwH+KmfVrd2rDgW LCvAdjBJpdxH40oZ593emhXB6ZmTcY3K0bOCgGBssxpck8Q5U2zlAS2x5bJalLwPIAqELzP8W wTLFzx9dbzDsvCqcBASCKVOClPOSqZ8Uwl7YQPWpgk+V9VsX1QlBK7tW0TU66gj79bxsgDCwQ /G2/+KBXxR+NuOjeuL6ybwi04Rcfa7o9TZg7Y74R7BGwK0W1AkZ/GuNIUi0q/A8N33xE0wHhF cIdeeFPaVz/zvVu2Pc9yge7HeTL6VPjjrh8HiWUYLFNYeQwFOjlndAiBMdCndBxfHxBeURUib ru82FghwbHzElAPhVvj/1CU4+7g8hhC92IaWvT3Ax7bnme2wLF26I5ovddQEOf10N95QCr618 6kwJz0ER5MK6EhawnW8IjusOkkjvpsJvxKqE+6TqWDJ+UkQ9/u4xSWUIp3y1FU+Wm0Wpw9Efv lUrd2OFZTqCY2ZfO93kYOu9A3btydjaQDTmoPg2XvQKpuPQsbijZnWWaP8rdU88WXPr+u3f Resent-From: Resent-To: ted.ietf@gmail.com, barryleiba@computer.org, superuser@gmail.com, barryleiba@gmail.com, spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com, dispatch@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20200901110454.254493A0F52@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2020 04:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] Genart last call review of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2020 11:04:54 -0000
Hello, 
 
According to BCP26/RFC8126 section 5.3 Designated expert reviews, it says:" 
 When a designated expert is used, the documentation should give clear
   guidance to the designated expert, laying out criteria for performing
   an evaluation and reasons for rejecting a request.
I don't see the above in this document.  This is going to have to be added to have any kind of validity or the IESG should reject to publication of this document.  Especially because this entire document will updating the IANA considerations section of rfc3405.
 
Tim
 
On 08/31/2020 11:23 PM Brian Carpenter via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
 
 
Reviewer: Brian Carpenter
Review result: Ready
 
Gen-ART Last Call review of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03
 
I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area
Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed
by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please treat these comments just
like any other last call comments.
 
For more information, please see the FAQ at
 
Document: draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03
Reviewer: Brian Carpenter
Review Date: 2020-09-01
IETF LC End Date: 2020-09-24
IESG Telechat date:
 
Summary: Ready (with micro-nit)
--------
 
Nits:
-----
 
1. Introduction
Part five of the Dynamic Delegation Discovery System (DDDS), RFC 3405
[RFC3405], describes the registration procedures for assignments in
URI.ARPA. The document requires that registrations be in the "IETF
tree" of URI registrations. The use of URI scheme name trees was
defined in RFC 2717 [RFC2717] but discontinued by RFC 4395 [RFC4395].
Since the use of trees was discontinued, there is no way in the
current process set out in BCP 35 [RFC7595] to meet the requirement.
This is indeed a nit, but I'd prefer s/the requirement/the above requirement/.
The current text did make me briefly think "Which requirement?".
 
 
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From nobody Tue Sep 1 08:08:26 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id E2E123A0B77; Tue, 1 Sep 2020 08:08:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8627A3A0B54; Tue, 1 Sep 2020 08:08:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.401 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.401 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NHfLGJQaKEcQ; Tue, 1 Sep 2020 08:08:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-f44.google.com (mail-io1-f44.google.com [209.85.166.44]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6CCAE3A0B52; Tue, 1 Sep 2020 08:08:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-f44.google.com with SMTP id b16so1594136ioj.4; Tue, 01 Sep 2020 08:08:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=nL9RCUy7/Y/QsZAAOfxjtPz+bqgaZxytfgMg29eyRjc=; b=lx7ZJ1oEd8FTwLKqp5i8buXj5jfexbOT8dIJYJYlcDUNHQOn3eSmwK9F2ztMfLxfIw 3D4MWnETYYCsDfSXqboBZ6jHpB3ARXKkba+1s8IlFJIgI6nXfGZN/+QfXOpCIX3putwo x7BOB6sPsGJE2Az/lQEZIa5Xby69PoHmb4eJvPr/snHl3ILGtj+wAphom8v+Lf1ZnIgA ZYhFEz09EWK72TL0WKzMTk7Th+RnWqRDpKPJjpvvUTgjcJ/GzK6VOTJH4LZgaeMMXJ7V vhAagcULoeYMxbgAWDn9D8ZlItsYeEuzuPxuDS2iBhM5WvrxeBKdoFFy3w52lwQepNE+ F4NA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531vl7R0goJD4cXIHshWzFZGrMIBZT8MQwVBM3Ywk7RP6uXRmaMu f1M5qK1322yWl4AEO19HK0XjPennSLB1Rs0VgQk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz6BjGevfy4XvWsHl8k6HaXEdYuzBupUs1LFVDSJU2RFZ7cy6yqjV6FmZbNEm0Bk9x65Aufgd/SJGa/qpVIF7A= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:80d2:: with SMTP id h18mr1854862ior.61.1598972899393; Tue, 01 Sep 2020 08:08:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <159893058662.23844.17177953972396775177@ietfa.amsl.com> <1066090379.166058.1598958286518@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <1066090379.166058.1598958286518@email.ionos.com> From: Barry Leiba Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2020 11:08:08 -0400 Message-ID: To: Timothy Mcsweeney Cc: Brian Carpenter , draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Resent-From: Resent-To: ted.ietf@gmail.com, superuser@gmail.com, barryleiba@computer.org, barryleiba@gmail.com, spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com, dispatch@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20200901150821.E2E123A0B77@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2020 08:08:21 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] Genart last call review of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2020 15:08:22 -0000 (Removed the GenART list, as this discussion doesn't apply to Brian's GenART review.) Tim, thanks for the comments. > According to BCP26/RFC8126 section 5.3 Designated expert reviews, it says:" > > When a designated expert is used, the documentation should give clear > guidance to the designated expert, laying out criteria for performing > an evaluation and reasons for rejecting a request. > > I don't see the above in this document. This is going to have to be added to have any kind of > validity or the IESG should reject to publication of this document. Especially because this entire > document will updating the IANA considerations section of rfc3405. As the person who added that quoted text to BCP 26, I'm clearly in favour of making sure that guidance to the DEs is available, and I often push on this in my reviews as Area Director. So I have a warm spot for what you say here. I this case, though, I disagree with the conclusion that such guidance has to be explicitly added: 1. When my AD reviews push on this point, it is almost always (possibly completely always) as a non-blocking comment, not a DISCUSS position. In other words, I strongly encourage the English sense of the "should" in the quoted text, but don't insist on it. It's not a requirement for publication. 2. RFC 3405 pre-dates RFC 8126, and the version of BCP 26 that was in effect at the time, RFC 2434 did not include the suggestion above. While it's certainly possible to add such guidance now, this update is very narrowly targeted to fix a serious problem, and I would not want debate about additional text to get in the way of that. There's plenty of precedent for these sorts of laser-focused updates that do not otherwise bring the original documents up to current standards. 3. I believe that 3405 is already clear enough in this regard in Section 3.1.2 and doesn't require further clarification. With this proposed update to Section 3.1.1, we can get back to having a clear way to register NAPTR records for URI schemes in the URI.ARPA zone. Barry From nobody Tue Sep 1 08:58:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 658083A0593; Tue, 1 Sep 2020 08:58:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB6A63A058F; Tue, 1 Sep 2020 08:58:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.799 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lllPQ_jr4HXY; Tue, 1 Sep 2020 08:58:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.196]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B99913A053F; Tue, 1 Sep 2020 08:58:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxusgaltgw05.schlund.de ([10.72.72.51]) by mrelay.perfora.net (mreueus003 [74.208.5.2]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LqSG7-1krAG91ivR-00e4WD; Tue, 01 Sep 2020 17:58:48 +0200 Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2020 11:58:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Timothy Mcsweeney To: Barry Leiba Cc: Brian Carpenter , draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org, "gen-art@ietf.org" Message-ID: <674529702.175704.1598975928192@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: References: <159893058662.23844.17177953972396775177@ietfa.amsl.com> <1066090379.166058.1598958286518@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.3-Rev19 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:BfnezosWWTLcWNvV83WJhXUUMs0aDCP/eAt0emd98BWI/Idmvhd nE8Dro0nJ76yxZhrMe0jn4CyCGmGHGMN0r2VEZj8W2KRvOscEhvPFaHWLKolJStCkQbAbc8 cboZokc5xd68a8zmQrb7x8a/z6FLSpnpaLPNMepOOM0RbDNFeAVbE4M4NooSE5utHphzVGJ GVLZICw3iLPGqtHp+9R/g== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:dZwmlxjUMr4=:120mbeh4Aw+W7+KhdqvBL/ gOkxjYEojR2kAgPcv5hhCJLCOjeHBGH0Nn0sZuYQU0JBEuCAYb4MjNtHMuZnrcg1JM3PdGdO3 8Du99JtqGpNq++yzHFHTVMsxOPC18MUtAWjkkrKqQNRuWOaeZGY2nH3cQGmQVxp3QkfZcnVuE oSZM/95+eKUX8AJvAEziC3g/zaQh1PLEsgyNKzrnC7jwDo3hHWC0lLu2zXH7uVBYAHqsdGSFJ LQiuMxizGIJePe6QczqUKhO+KnkqTVGrrVTnouJLVEhX0qd4e5L7Gz5MDmSm0wQ9gnsUc2m+1 qGDpCvScRtT11m74WMIkvjlob4AB9fGMrD3N9vqBlt/3T71L1oKvjdHiLWAWlZwW9cx6/vlRw 2AVXueWsdSsO7Vk+4TQh1SCPBbzfH6nqJs0D8j7zMNRm+zpdZ1kB7j9UfKyFVn8L36GRPq5jB 8yO8Vve8swH6xq1huV2WVRCz5Q0TJWzWULLXkQFDX0HONp8SJnVIKzuiYxISztaaTcXz5d/S4 fi1mb9Keptt+08urDsgppdIUrYAT/PTYqHjil4REcaTBIOEEYMPhXbXH4mTNxdUwNOcyFCJ7v oHC4sEppmPxGLK1xYUavLUtD/yBJbvIyEaTsdiYM7nugGoyF4MYO+kDrpuXuPSSqtMpzFHo2Q K5uDQvEjLu4X2gUkGIqJvTPR9iSENpGopR1D3Yj2DbOB4Bq0EAWzf9r6/9Cw/pAI1fVh2pREq GNljRU0hKL6/Hs9gPK0meI8PZIgLHXwF/Sn9+Qt4yklYc6pjMoKhM7qneJqvYrLX7yMlAY6tA NIyo0YtR0lscuky6VfmvRd8ONd7l/V8b95KS8gIXWjFA8xWaerFdUoYgCyi+iyk5EOEY5sa Resent-From: Resent-To: ted.ietf@gmail.com, superuser@gmail.com, barryleiba@computer.org, barryleiba@gmail.com, spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com, dispatch@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20200901155852.658083A0593@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2020 08:58:52 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] Genart last call review of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2020 15:58:52 -0000
Hi Barry, 
 
>While it's certainly possible to add such guidance now...
 
Possible?  It's the best current practice.  Shouldn't it be imposed?  
 
 
>While it's certainly possible to add such guidance now, this update is
>very narrowly targeted to fix a serious problem, and I would not want
>debate about additional text to get in the way of that.
 
And doesn't using this draft as an update of the entire IANA considerations section effectively remove any means of registration through the mailing lists provided in that same section??  
  
Tim
From nobody Tue Sep 1 22:49:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 534E83A0BD3; Tue, 1 Sep 2020 22:49:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F05E33A0BD2; Tue, 1 Sep 2020 22:49:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jpm91tK3HiEq; Tue, 1 Sep 2020 22:49:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-xe36.google.com (mail-vs1-xe36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A744E3A0BBB; Tue, 1 Sep 2020 22:49:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-xe36.google.com with SMTP id b123so1939330vsd.10; Tue, 01 Sep 2020 22:49:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Ig/8f/Gbw3Uyn9EZFooAJLXEDgD+lBdM/VzANurmjEs=; b=qDL2KDkEtPKpllCVleklcWZK+s1zYhYhI7sdy3P193jHlGoTGEF6Ai2geIrLtmGHMS bV5QkwK2+e+OAq/ilzZW0ffd0f11B6N7y0mUbN9RNSq5LG71/3UTM4NqEgInRATkGt3j O2hQkdhJRV/GAc2Qu9k0xzN6RZ+LP71/CAaWZLIVtxfhsNdeX5t6pVTM2ZG5mD2JSxvG j93DgbHs41/rthwom3x1WMlxEHY/F/gf3r503A2iCmBSLOnKyEU4O2O+mgXMTzR2vnpa VRnocJ51TKkt6MpKPKVOqgdpwSJbga+hDK81WUCTwkwVdjc5ChCJ9vlSxCkGH/b/WRTn AqRw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Ig/8f/Gbw3Uyn9EZFooAJLXEDgD+lBdM/VzANurmjEs=; b=dtLFF9z2tOfNf8+bRLGgfDgHU47Jfk62qhGV58oOUKPsT0I0lHNe6UGaCoredfKymV Ld6IAFM3NE0I/akCY/eZTCFPbRAqzxn7E0uzbDwRhLLo5c/S1o6zf9VbOLdcSsJnoldC 3VAgpHPQnBZmBQkeQF0KOmbjWLJxLNoOmFLS4NS/325pFqlMPFZXRiNhBrF1hOB/kOZd 6/SCATTyQHcf+4H8voyKmLpGho92Gv0YRmCtIjeQMnQvCKuXwre/lSTixi17fq8zKqwr CP9tWLZeo7/ca05ounBZXoGaOCVwReq3yADVxOYqNskJsKtYmfB+kd6e7NJu0rUsqeN+ x6qA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530O52DDZ/Sz2SrxuNAuFmuaISbun3E/ngJOywhuCVFKMjWzFdsb asCS+A7tNQbJj8VXrQgLKz4Kp2MCoJgZHc89YcUOBfqDDzdQCqmH X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxQf5GrqdnPLonTv5TGn5z4nfkxeI6RiFV+YKYhpsbtuZzqdRKkB8bL18TWO3YGN+5Midv0Em7LMsFOhutUK2Q= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:44e:: with SMTP id e14mr4430332vsq.185.1599025761664; Tue, 01 Sep 2020 22:49:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <159893058662.23844.17177953972396775177@ietfa.amsl.com> <1066090379.166058.1598958286518@email.ionos.com> <674529702.175704.1598975928192@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <674529702.175704.1598975928192@email.ionos.com> From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2020 22:49:09 -0700 Message-ID: To: Timothy Mcsweeney Cc: Barry Leiba , Brian Carpenter , draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000082c41e05ae4e3237" Resent-From: Resent-To: ted.ietf@gmail.com, barryleiba@computer.org, superuser@gmail.com, barryleiba@gmail.com, spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com, dispatch@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20200902054924.534E83A0BD3@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2020 22:49:24 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] Genart last call review of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2020 05:49:24 -0000 --00000000000082c41e05ae4e3237 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Sep 1, 2020 at 8:58 AM Timothy Mcsweeney wrote: > >While it's certainly possible to add such guidance now, this update is > >very narrowly targeted to fix a serious problem, and I would not want > >debate about additional text to get in the way of that. > > And doesn't using this draft as an update of the entire IANA > considerations section effectively remove any means of registration through > the mailing lists provided in that same section?? > This draft doesn't replace the entire IANA Considerations section of RFC 3405, but rather amends it. That is, after this is published, to get the full IANA Considerations for BCP 65, you would read RFC 3405 and then apply this document as a sort of "patch". That's what we mean when we say "RFC Y updates RFC X", which will be the end result here. The specific effect of this document when published is to amend Section 3.1.1 of RFC 3405 such that instead of saying "registered under the IETF URI tree", it becomes "a registered permanent URI scheme", and then take "tree" out of the next sentence, and rename the section to something more appropriate. This draft could spell out each of those edits precisely, or just replace all of Section 3.1.1 with a new set of text, but it's such a small change that what's here seems equivalent and unambiguous to me. -MSK --00000000000082c41e05ae4e3237 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Sep 1, 2020 at 8:58 AM Timothy Mc= sweeney <tim@dropnumber.com>= ; wrote:
>While it's certainly possible to add such guida= nce now, this update is
=
>very narrowly targeted to fix a serious problem, and I would not w= ant
>debate about additional text to get in the way of that.
=C2=A0
=20
And doesn't using this draft as an update of the entire IANA conside= rations section effectively remove any means of registration through the ma= iling lists provided in that same section??=C2=A0=C2=A0

This draft doesn't repla= ce the entire IANA Considerations section of RFC 3405, but rather amends it= .=C2=A0 That is, after this is published, to get the full IANA Consideratio= ns for BCP 65, you would read RFC 3405 and then apply this document as a so= rt of "patch".=C2=A0 That's what we mean when we say "RF= C Y updates RFC X", which will be the end result here.

<= /div>
The specific effect of this document when published is to amend S= ection 3.1.1 of RFC 3405 such that instead of saying "registered under= the IETF URI tree", it becomes "a registered permanent URI schem= e", and then take "tree" out of the next sentence, and renam= e the section to something more appropriate.=C2=A0 This draft could spell o= ut each of those edits precisely, or just replace all of Section 3.1.1 with= a new set of text, but it's such a small change that what's here s= eems equivalent and unambiguous to me.

-MSK
--00000000000082c41e05ae4e3237-- From nobody Wed Sep 2 03:29:52 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62B063A0E75 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 03:29:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PTZP5l1YkC-p for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 03:29:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x136.google.com (mail-il1-x136.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 03FC13A0E73 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 03:29:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x136.google.com with SMTP id p13so4512136ils.3 for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2020 03:29:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qthP7B2EybQkcmpj/vvBn0hCzSwENo5eEaJGbJCKK40=; b=bZyofC9FCB8RuqZxdmY2OqBCf2G7IfdbrCqcMew1dDV7P9GusIRihq74JTh6MOABD3 1ben+gjw3LlUn/pjzVfsT+L+0J6RiXW6kXnm+FWedtgL9o0cFgseoXUYMj/8NRg8t6YQ 1JHv3Sjw5eY8SrRUI6k/IpijhftfOe461a24hYtsN0ubKufZpg03dr1F6C2nGtAwyqxH sCy5PHYbYbTGCmDlIIxCaQTLlRSB1KB5wYvH5CrQLM3f7vM6EnPW7gddMZrYgoO3GPi+ y8YgfKI0SyphFAldMqCh5l3IUwKXsRMxpgI2ScMKVRf12DugqYcEp4yEWD47CEY/W01F Imqg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qthP7B2EybQkcmpj/vvBn0hCzSwENo5eEaJGbJCKK40=; b=oxg8JbLOCPMulU2jppb60UgFFqt3xJ1ZPdz1Li9vZotBdTmzVaet9/Z0uBzeNdQT/h h8rHDZoVocOtJ9DnGJyqBAxDDCDIC+er9sF9WfA0ORiqlKx6PnUmtrxjtSQ18x7XgF/d 8JOMgzpZnzVlFGio3c3omqzIJGCNk+8PTYk5Bi3hBombe7DMhr+NdUqfsA4do1FLHz8g ALpas87Rw0IQ9XiZYUUNvZ6YUU2w0Nd1aI4cMZ9iBUZw+v99ttdykyRXYLUHUVCIZX1A yWBuXlwLGrcfKYGPd8+ERKha1p5IDS4cDWaRPu+0bi4d+Q1daU8zVn4vaAkW68g6cHdK ZAHg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532OuLO8dEQphexH795njtjY/7yevgn5cSiDMMf7ilzunRL7+1xc lbIYFVTAYIZkVUPfa8byNdxE5jQS7K7xKVIy7A9r7wE9r0P8Ew== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyzUiUSeARZhRraAPhxE0y/Gg3Sq4U/uoTEMtTnoaeDYL3RwtTx1Kt0IFgRFfn/fHfzMB/4bU9Dg06+20EcsIk= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:110e:: with SMTP id u14mr3038767ilk.270.1599042585862; Wed, 02 Sep 2020 03:29:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Roberto Polli Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 12:29:34 +0200 Message-ID: To: dispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004fa55d05ae521d3b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] A WG for HTTP API Building Blocks X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2020 10:29:50 -0000 --0000000000004fa55d05ae521d3b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Mark et al, I think that a WG for HTTP API Building Blocks is really necessary to avoid fragmentation and is a great opportunity to provide a common ground for providers and consumers to meet. Mark wrote: > [http api wg] output can include: > =E2=80=A2 Specifications for new HTTP header and/or trailer fields > =E2=80=A2 Specifications for new message body formats, or conventions for= use in them (e.g., patterns of JSON objects) > =E2=80=A2 Proposals for new HTTP status codes, methods, or other generic extensions, to be considered by the HTTP Working Group > =E2=80=A2 Best practices and other documentation for HTTP API designers, consumers, implementers, operators, etc. +1 Darrel wrote: > I do believe now is the right time for this effort. The majority of large companies have recognized the need for network based > APIs to be an essential part of their technology platform. I see this regularly as part of my work with the OpenAPI Initiative. > However, frustration with the inconsistent and sometimes poor use of HTTP is causing companies to look closely at more prescriptive but less ubiquitous solutions. +1 When dealing with large ecosystems of API providers - eg like in government - with hundreds of suppliers it is very hard to provide guidance even when you have RFC/BCP. In EU we are even facing the challenge of providing cross-border APIs for all Member States, and it would be great to provide a global framework to support the principal choices :) This can be thus relevant not only for consumers, but for providing services to citizens. Which are the next steps toward the creation of the WG? Have a nice day, Roberto PS: [I just subscribed to dispatch, in case the mail is not properly threaded, this is the original link https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dispatch/pWx1SgjZS4R3nzXEK-jE6xqOqUc/= ] --0000000000004fa55d05ae521d3b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Mark et al,

I think that a WG for HT= TP API Building Blocks is really necessary to avoid
fragmentation= and is a great opportunity to provide a common ground for providers and
consumers to meet.

Mark wrote:
> [http api wg] output can include:
> =E2= =80=A2 Specifications for new HTTP header and/or trailer fields
> =E2= =80=A2 Specifications for new message body formats, or conventions for use = in them (e.g., patterns of JSON objects)
> =E2=80=A2 Proposals for ne= w HTTP status codes, methods, or other generic extensions, to be considered= by the HTTP Working Group
> =E2=80=A2 Best practices and other docum= entation for HTTP API designers, consumers, implementers, operators, etc.
+1

Darrel wrote:
> I do believe now is the right time for this effort.=C2=A0 The majori= ty of large companies have recognized the need for network based=C2=A0
> APIs to be an essential part of their technology platform.=C2=A0= I see this regularly as part of my work with the OpenAPI Initiative.=C2=A0=
> However, frustration with the inconsistent and sometimes po= or use of HTTP is causing companies to look closely at more prescriptive bu= t less ubiquitous solutions.
+1
When dealing with large ecosystems of API providers - eg like = in government - with hundreds of suppliers
it is very hard to pro= vide guidance even when=C2=A0you have RFC/BCP. In EU we are even facing the= challenge
of providing cross-border APIs for all Member States, = and it would be great to provide a global framework to support the=C2=A0pri= ncipal choices :)
This can be thus relevant not only for consumer= s, but for providing services to citizens.

Which a= re the next steps toward the creation of the WG?

H= ave a nice day,
Roberto

PS:=C2=A0
<= div>
[I just subscribed to dispatch, in case the mail is not = properly threaded, this is the original link=C2=A0https://mail= archive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dispatch/pWx1SgjZS4R3nzXEK-jE6xqOqUc/]
<= div>

--0000000000004fa55d05ae521d3b-- From nobody Wed Sep 2 03:53:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id D19D93A0EB9; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 03:52:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 676343A0EB8; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 03:52:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.795 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.795 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bXl3Mk5idIhH; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 03:52:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.197]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EFDCE3A0EB7; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 03:52:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxusgaltgw09.schlund.de ([10.72.72.55]) by mrelay.perfora.net (mreueus004 [74.208.5.2]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MEVeQ-1kNoev35DO-00G32e; Wed, 02 Sep 2020 12:52:51 +0200 Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 06:52:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Timothy Mcsweeney To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" Cc: draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org, Barry Leiba , Brian Carpenter Message-ID: <808181205.131590.1599043971572@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: References: <159893058662.23844.17177953972396775177@ietfa.amsl.com> <1066090379.166058.1598958286518@email.ionos.com> <674529702.175704.1598975928192@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.3-Rev19 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Wy2fWL/qzuHCC9qmxWpt6fIjHFeikXhxUQOmP6JadIVsdfmzLxS Yjj9AHmnO31Ngi1ax26pruQ1jBD9LtXGiCzWbCj863UPxCEY334h3AzupK5svZepjpJ4tBe NPiFiaAsAoAiqLRa2O1NCySZP0BLNre2zOOkcCodBvich8wlS/O+LmOdYVoblHA4pQhEXkr cv764v3TFLwI17iL+JXBA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:Od+F+7U5/NQ=:XV6+Y6bo7z6O7FoyBG6WGX NKGVriH5RPnVpUO+Og9iEayZKqLEh6bwy5zTzGziZZveD3LELIuplEl/ry+0pl7qi+a24xfK7 Tp0BBYCEXNXn4ej3Bpe3R6ff1pczpCi5CHMoRvyBSlOaj7z0SqX1x4P4Hjs6dN9oM0ecDUzQN IDjI/2oXvoMgh1UTuhuKCSqd+RFEkSp+FOGOBAPGZZgXkuEK660OkoG7S68pcd0pbErP88Hte cm5K9vF1CEJguiTv8HpxApF6xB/vLbJQpo1J6o+pgElQlM+MQX8fp+RzaZ+AhlxGdy2Cbyh9r vYYh0kLAN4YLUYlCkKGJFCxug9j82smdCEG8GGP4QDiREEUj6JDLxF1RA7gjobBRwyxp+9xZG pJmOHZzwctkJNILoyRSlUk/LVMq1j3y8VTV24AzSEKGo273eGA03oZ1lk5PXNNmAJ7iP9KP51 fHWOJzyLp9uJQ0RCGoQ6DGBrJK2yN6mmB9fp6fMrVuqhuO58LB/gEj4n8URB0K9pVr4mQvLfN JeFzKc7bpcuAn4tun86R182/OhMgCgr/pVBZuqK3OG9SZbJmW4Rf+6R3r7oXKeOWpcKcFjivB 2h97da/Z2agK37vkdrwszkp3Oc6W8oA5L6fvwGHFSX1TW+GiM/iOVtsQBkP8VFcQnB0YKIEys yKmt+86/FNiBKfWYKXCEEAOBL3cXyluZEHkinAVC6yJImpERw0qkv522m7mxKlP1UMAW2tBEs srGupb8F7yACCW8kzxRaZoks/aoGcOn7+GN3gAMRSriWPtpVm3eQjkONMLLiAjBeftWceRQhU Hq08RsVBrglrRpE+8bSRrs2ucCYHAduodVqw7AZ493HKdFrS0dw5CHJ/ksGdEvhgeZB6UfO Resent-From: Resent-To: ted.ietf@gmail.com, barryleiba@gmail.com, superuser@gmail.com, barryleiba@computer.org, spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com, dispatch@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20200902105256.D19D93A0EB9@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 03:52:56 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Last-Call] Genart last call review of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2020 10:52:57 -0000
>>This draft doesn't replace the entire IANA Considerations section of RFC 3405, but rather amends it.
 
Oh, ok, because the draft literally says "This entire document is updated instructions to IANA."
 
 
>>This draft could spell out each of those edits precisely, or just replace all of Section 3.1.1 with a new set of text..
 
And it should.  There is no legitimate reason not to.  
 
 
>>... seems equivalent and unambiguous to me.
 
No surprise here.  Maybe the IESG isn't a good fit for you.  As a matter of fact, if I were Barry I would drop sponsorship of this draft for all the reasons above. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
On 09/02/2020 1:49 AM Murray S. Kucherawy <superuser@gmail.com> wrote:
 
 
On Tue, Sep 1, 2020 at 8:58 AM Timothy Mcsweeney <tim@dropnumber.com> wrote:
>While it's certainly possible to add such guidance now, this update is
>very narrowly targeted to fix a serious problem, and I would not want
>debate about additional text to get in the way of that.
 
And doesn't using this draft as an update of the entire IANA considerations section effectively remove any means of registration through the mailing lists provided in that same section??  
 
This draft doesn't replace the entire IANA Considerations section of RFC 3405, but rather amends it.  That is, after this is published, to get the full IANA Considerations for BCP 65, you would read RFC 3405 and then apply this document as a sort of "patch".  That's what we mean when we say "RFC Y updates RFC X", which will be the end result here.
 
The specific effect of this document when published is to amend Section 3.1.1 of RFC 3405 such that instead of saying "registered under the IETF URI tree", it becomes "a registered permanent URI scheme", and then take "tree" out of the next sentence, and rename the section to something more appropriate.  This draft could spell out each of those edits precisely, or just replace all of Section 3.1.1 with a new set of text, but it's such a small change that what's here seems equivalent and unambiguous to me.
 
-MSK
-- last-call mailing list last-call@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/last-call
From nobody Wed Sep 2 09:34:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 0A22D3A12F4; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 09:34:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9561E3A12F3 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 09:34:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.25 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.25 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=chromium.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Mq1kWxS7DOdu for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 09:34:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x82f.google.com (mail-qt1-x82f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4987B3A12F0 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 09:34:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x82f.google.com with SMTP id n18so4057344qtw.0 for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2020 09:34:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=chromium.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=g12lAJgeLGUi3D9ufXLinPPIyF40FLi2bIY8O3AA6No=; b=JeP5Kgnq3nkxoLeBIPnkANer6xFjuZUY8KESXzsWDYxjLiaidOzIyDnlab0JRq8Ivn DlPAOgzKOfRBoAB6oxpNlxcEG5gKTDVudvOvLjoMobE7Vv8BIXJ2tDXNyxDf5e1xSiXY WSPQU7bC54PKlERwi7SFWEcFSs6ZeOtCo8L/8= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=g12lAJgeLGUi3D9ufXLinPPIyF40FLi2bIY8O3AA6No=; b=YUNIFcpcanROUi+Qh5hwtb1VCYhKcfq0AYp9rLQzAYHMOnq0cv4cIcADKT12MBvhu4 g/oIyO8SG4r1DBUPlwr6fr4o5l8wBzBwRawkyGteTidJt9b9V4ebAG/r2XZqQF2h5PNs 2N3bgmv0suKT+vyRAJWt1oY+liLAREoRivcKf46rh7wt4LFqdqc8VBzjpTpbTFluDhv+ JnOT1S7jaHWszRv4N9Q92bcZdzhSuJvRYf5sW8ZJNbwYh61wrJ74PiQ650pTao2i/Aib 1wXPpBhlK9XP1+9sF2/csXLLyP6rsOlCbp5bjfstWh8G78b6/3FJyk1ElY/QncfQA/ng dOig== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532hrnTmQ2AEPjtgCJhNOQgYWFNuZm0gQ/xefU1QWEwicX0jbL+3 +6TJqMGoX9MAb1bbta+b0ZiFQBk1eYv7Y+7OtaejQA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJww28bw953wvA7NNIf4mRRtL2AgxP8tWxFF8Pl7pMWiE5osHWgRgsH7SfC2o/kZD4Mf6dDrLo5NNh9qRMiOS2k= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:7186:: with SMTP id w6mr7570195qto.382.1599064444999; Wed, 02 Sep 2020 09:34:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <159893058662.23844.17177953972396775177@ietfa.amsl.com> <1066090379.166058.1598958286518@email.ionos.com> <674529702.175704.1598975928192@email.ionos.com> <808181205.131590.1599043971572@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <808181205.131590.1599043971572@email.ionos.com> From: Jeffrey Yasskin Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 09:33:53 -0700 Message-ID: To: Timothy Mcsweeney Cc: "Murray S. Kucherawy" , draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org, Barry Leiba , Brian Carpenter Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000380cd405ae5734a7" Resent-From: Resent-To: ted.ietf@gmail.com, superuser@gmail.com, barryleiba@computer.org, barryleiba@gmail.com, spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com, dispatch@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20200902163408.0A22D3A12F4@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 09:34:08 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Last-Call] Genart last call review of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2020 16:34:08 -0000 --000000000000380cd405ae5734a7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I'm just a random bystander, but On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 3:53 AM Timothy Mcsweeney wrote: > >>... seems equivalent and unambiguous to me. > > No surprise here. Maybe the IESG isn't a good fit for you. As a matter > of fact, if I were Barry I would drop sponsorship of this draft for all the > reasons above. > breaks the rules in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7154#section-2 for how to discuss issues. Please don't make personal attacks. Thanks, Jeffrey --000000000000380cd405ae5734a7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm just a random bystander, but=C2=A0

<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">
On Wed, Sep= 2, 2020 at 3:53 AM Timothy Mcsweeney <tim@dropnumber.com> wrote:
=20
>>... seems equivalent and unambiguous to me.
=20
=C2=A0
=20
No surprise here.=C2=A0 Maybe the IESG isn't a good fit for you.=C2= =A0 As a matter of fact, if I were Barry I would drop sponsorship of this d= raft for all the reasons above.=C2=A0

breaks the rules in=C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7154#section-2 for how to= discuss issues. Please don't make personal attacks.

Thanks,
Jeffrey
--000000000000380cd405ae5734a7-- From nobody Wed Sep 2 10:42:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id A0D783A0C37; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 10:42:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A4EF3A0C33; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 10:42:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cNGwEEWTCKkc; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 10:42:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x232.google.com (mail-oi1-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 589C33A0C2F; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 10:42:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x232.google.com with SMTP id d189so137007oig.12; Wed, 02 Sep 2020 10:42:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=StrAgFa8xs40R6R5azyrHMo6gySgdSt6kFumRRKrsfM=; b=WM9gHabFXxtrCA2MkUvmfHZgKx6q1nS4iVxEhvF4R/aIBR8HFDjcdRTI0xbXRCWfK1 fx78Q6A/faSHOfGtLWn4R1CLsM3rKSR0TNhR5H/aGMNWuPj20gFXgq3y6MaHDKTt/SYr xnjSmUgc0DzNbElHWC4Z2N32yQgCvGLsUmrpaxuQm0nPKCOAkqQvcNoynxzWWGs/dyIY tR/nPYiv0QM8w3mYrPINAQNXx/UhMvmcOhfo2Rwh2yjqKOdC7Exjhy9AhnuJ9oBchDnW VuHn67jcErFVj2j+5fjJ5RoTCr1qpr53ZrXbkZxuL4urkTZt6XPAFGxTGtVtBKET46lI o9mw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=StrAgFa8xs40R6R5azyrHMo6gySgdSt6kFumRRKrsfM=; b=n5gWWRPTC53I7uZ8gipIZfkSItEFoCqxojQlPPsVUzX+a9oYRV0sYFTVXwEbhFhAwW g5gZswHFeqqdFjG6sTDOBiMPyLK+0fR7nNcFD9RlJldYAYDp2TMn542QBtWm4QgmtiI/ 9slf0SMPLoAosHK37yGmD67hyLz59V03ikUeIyRQvtubY1+M6Kal3OLExVHzOInqwzqA 5kDmEvaG7zaM4imgGd2vpdI06AqLAp/tvI9bx8byKBJDnWVZOP9LRp+SWRRPSD2emCOU KDWLxIb5UaXa7wIS6d0zacEne27Ns68BN9X/9jMS0L5e8tW809lhLj1NSNC5qfUKNwFH eMMw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530YtPRTeoUss6p2KxdO+wwxBcdyoWzU9q88YdtxlV+iUMIrAu4n 4W6p02NyPObzNbQc1owQhYnz1R22vfYOajWwLq89TRXwAa65wg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwtJ9dYNWlwhZ4SUNHd15Oeq9GghXa543mSAy43bK/AK+rDopa2S6JPevnrBEwFihnWPdcgy3scCCMrR5oWW2k= X-Received: by 2002:aca:c3c7:: with SMTP id t190mr2792750oif.167.1599068536657; Wed, 02 Sep 2020 10:42:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <159893058662.23844.17177953972396775177@ietfa.amsl.com> <1066090379.166058.1598958286518@email.ionos.com> <674529702.175704.1598975928192@email.ionos.com> <808181205.131590.1599043971572@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <808181205.131590.1599043971572@email.ionos.com> From: Ted Hardie Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 10:41:50 -0700 Message-ID: To: Timothy Mcsweeney Cc: "Murray S. Kucherawy" , draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org, Barry Leiba , Brian Carpenter Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000019597405ae582823" Resent-From: Resent-To: ted.ietf@gmail.com, barryleiba@gmail.com, superuser@gmail.com, barryleiba@computer.org, spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com, dispatch@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20200902174219.A0D783A0C37@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 10:42:19 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Last-Call] Genart last call review of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2020 17:42:20 -0000 --00000000000019597405ae582823 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" To reply to the text change in particular: On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 3:52 AM Timothy Mcsweeney wrote: > > >>This draft could spell out each of those edits precisely, or just > replace all of Section 3.1.1 with a new set of text.. > > And it should. There is no legitimate reason not to. > > > You would prefer changing this: 2. Updated Requirements This document removes the normative requirement from RFC 3405 for registrations in URI.ARPA to be from the IETF URI Tree. All registrations in URI.ARPA MUST now be for schemes which are permanent registrations, as they are described in BCP 35. to something like this: 2. Updated section 3.1.1 for RFC 3405 The following text replaces section 3.1.1 of RFC 3405: 3.1.1 Only permanent URI registrations allowed. All schemes registered in URI.ARPA MUST be schemes which are permanent registrations, as they are described in BCP 35. Is that right? regards, Ted Hardie >>... seems equivalent and unambiguous to me. > > No surprise here. Maybe the IESG isn't a good fit for you. As a matter > of fact, if I were Barry I would drop sponsorship of this draft for all the > reasons above. > > > > > > > > > > On 09/02/2020 1:49 AM Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: > > > On Tue, Sep 1, 2020 at 8:58 AM Timothy Mcsweeney > wrote: > > >While it's certainly possible to add such guidance now, this update is > > >very narrowly targeted to fix a serious problem, and I would not want > >debate about additional text to get in the way of that. > > And doesn't using this draft as an update of the entire IANA > considerations section effectively remove any means of registration through > the mailing lists provided in that same section?? > > > This draft doesn't replace the entire IANA Considerations section of RFC > 3405, but rather amends it. That is, after this is published, to get the > full IANA Considerations for BCP 65, you would read RFC 3405 and then apply > this document as a sort of "patch". That's what we mean when we say "RFC Y > updates RFC X", which will be the end result here. > > The specific effect of this document when published is to amend Section > 3.1.1 of RFC 3405 such that instead of saying "registered under the IETF > URI tree", it becomes "a registered permanent URI scheme", and then take > "tree" out of the next sentence, and rename the section to something more > appropriate. This draft could spell out each of those edits precisely, or > just replace all of Section 3.1.1 with a new set of text, but it's such a > small change that what's here seems equivalent and unambiguous to me. > > -MSK > -- last-call mailing list last-call@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/last-call > > --00000000000019597405ae582823 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
To reply to the text change in particular= :

On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 3:52 AM Timothy Mcsweeney <tim@dropnumber.com> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

=20
>>This draft could spell out each of those edits precisely, or jus= t replace all of Section 3.1.1 with a new set of text..
=20
=C2=A0
=20
And it should.=C2=A0 There is no legitimate reason not to.=C2=A0=C2=A0
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=C2=A0
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=C2=A0

You would prefer changing th= is: 
2.  Updated Requirements

   This document removes the normative requirement from RFC 3405 for
   registrations in URI.ARPA to be from the IETF URI Tree.

   All registrations in URI.ARPA MUST now be for schemes which are
   permanent registrations, as they are described in BCP 35.
to something like this:

2. Updated section 3.1.1 for RFC 3405

The following text replaces section 3.1.1 of RFC 3405:= 

   3.1.1 Only=
 permanent URI registrations allowed.

   All schemes registered in URI.ARPA MUST be schemes which are
   permanent registrations, as they are described in BCP 35.
Is that right?

regards,

Ted Hardie

=20
>>... seems equivalent and unambiguous to me.
=20
=C2=A0
=20
No surprise here.=C2=A0 Maybe the IESG isn't a good fit for you.=C2= =A0 As a matter of fact, if I were Barry I would drop sponsorship of this d= raft for all the reasons above.=C2=A0
=20
=C2=A0
=20
=C2=A0
=20
=C2=A0
=20
=C2=A0
=20
=C2=A0
=20
=C2=A0
=20
=C2=A0
=20
=C2=A0
=20
=20
On 09/02/2020 1:49 AM Murray S. Kucherawy <superuser@gmail.com> wrote:
=20
=C2=A0
=20
=C2=A0
=20
=20
On Tue, Sep 1, 2020 at 8:58 AM Timothy Mcsweeney <tim@dropnumber.com> wrote:
=20
=20
>While it's certainly possible to add such guidance now, this = update is
=20
=20
=20
>very narrowly targeted to fix a serious problem, and I would no= t want=20
>debate about additional text to get in the way of that.
=20
=C2=A0
=20
And doesn't using this draft as an update of the entire IANA co= nsiderations section effectively remove any means of registration through t= he mailing lists provided in that same section??=C2=A0=C2=A0
=20
=20
=20
=C2=A0
=20
This draft doesn't replace the entire IANA Considerations section= of RFC 3405, but rather amends it.=C2=A0 That is, after this is published,= to get the full IANA Considerations for BCP 65, you would read RFC 3405 an= d then apply this document as a sort of "patch".=C2=A0 That's= what we mean when we say "RFC Y updates RFC X", which will be th= e end result here.
=20
=C2=A0
=20
The specific effect of this document when published is to amend Secti= on 3.1.1 of RFC 3405 such that instead of saying "registered under the= IETF URI tree", it becomes "a registered permanent URI scheme&qu= ot;, and then take "tree" out of the next sentence, and rename th= e section to something more appropriate.=C2=A0 This draft could spell out e= ach of those edits precisely, or just replace all of Section 3.1.1 with a n= ew set of text, but it's such a small change that what's here seems= equivalent and unambiguous to me.
=20
=C2=A0
=20
-MSK
=20
=20
-- last-call mailing list last-call@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis= tinfo/last-call
--00000000000019597405ae582823-- From nobody Wed Sep 2 10:44:32 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id CA7083A0C3A; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 10:44:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63C383A0C33; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 10:44:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.796 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.796 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DSShayakkefS; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 10:44:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 50B193A0C1E; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 10:44:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxusgaltgw00.schlund.de ([10.72.72.46]) by mrelay.perfora.net (mreueus003 [74.208.5.2]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MWD5b-1k6alC3VbV-00XNGD; Wed, 02 Sep 2020 19:44:23 +0200 Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 13:44:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Timothy Mcsweeney To: Jeffrey Yasskin Cc: draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org, Barry Leiba , "Murray S. Kucherawy" , Brian Carpenter Message-ID: <431078846.410242.1599068663591@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: References: <159893058662.23844.17177953972396775177@ietfa.amsl.com> <1066090379.166058.1598958286518@email.ionos.com> <674529702.175704.1598975928192@email.ionos.com> <808181205.131590.1599043971572@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.3-Rev19 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:jqLdj9vcxRd1vwkUNRtdQPDDB2mnh6BKQ98cSIatfUiqNvkSNEJ /w9cy8dOEMlreWOgkjEyUM5kvaHVtmE0MwJx+wht3G7PACWKwGYQEFVXDnVcXyMbtzdCUTy 8Ks1rfBUbRKoeMni4Yoai6/m37nnTT0XEDPJUS+aY+7eS6ORlqmiuTsAwxj1UV4i3UTGfBU FuHhWLCH/beND+YJfSxGA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:BRPur0LUxcw=:taVkx/jlXYVx2NIAo7fbDV INv7wuYH7ZkRe3U+72EK46LHahnGRVOSvHbz6fbH5UMcxdv7jqm+bKr85/ISbmlUb3U5NFUAe DYA2Pwg094YL35x60mb0H7vgaJxD/cWGaEEAq41b9vQEWBPazF+Z+TslB0AvMpz1gz/sTQZCU 09c+mfzvqZV1F3oLTjraOrGqOpg5NiIlr6IFESsDfoIiu/F2ep6y4n6n8kebQeuT63qzK9NnJ uH7G1xlYNcz5hb3OOJ2Bpwmt2qWDGZsh0KTtlYwAJvVdTECPK6Ld76iHc4TZsDTIrMgeNI3nG lktZhos3K75p53LpWDvNNSmn5ZePE92ibKslvEhkc7/C2AfN+5YkvnpQTSzZekxgmf4H/7rBD PIwXvr/Hd2ZfRzOAZuXinf9XLC2G1MjzMPMI/vnvZZ6nc11rTdGltXMJWg96dPzqLVpvT86nG Jflju93e5v+6G8/DR+l7Nbs20aKaV2yTEB3fekXFJqsbldXN4q+6iAFBRzHxh1srFJfskk7+g 8fGYJsS+EZyI1L304TxoGE9LhO9ulJmq/jiyL4F/5h49Kby7AUBi+vtvyHpdq866xje50JbzO BXM9qbrq7VANd9oqhdKE/96KkbXkRo5hKUg5hgPG+aTNo7vJQWH2LxxBrYch8+jtf6d4QR+jU SEkZ4UnS3A/1rUBZjfeihQHzV95zvOGChEiyh5b3B86a23SJehuc8intIiAc6QkWnUgV/hpSx bhKYCnN2h2rha8s+S9/hN6u/zN7Fovt8EUhnM9qB9f8OrPMvK5th5gXcHCWiinr7LzHgoR1Y6 EdP+uU2eHXeeiX19uuHd6c+yhEnFgpqdPZmmZJoviIg5BVsbsqnPEj6BFpLzt/c2WkSkxFn Resent-From: Resent-To: ted.ietf@gmail.com, barryleiba@gmail.com, superuser@gmail.com, barryleiba@computer.org, spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com, dispatch@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20200902174427.CA7083A0C3A@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 10:44:27 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Last-Call] Genart last call review of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2020 17:44:28 -0000
Jeffrey, I sent you a DM.  I would have rather posted my reply to the modeartors email here on this list but I'm not sure if that would have broken the same rule several more times.
 
Tim
From nobody Wed Sep 2 12:56:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 3AE8B3A0DD1; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 12:56:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D58B83A0DAB; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 12:55:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.798 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.798 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y64deSlXYbPX; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 12:55:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.196]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A75A73A0DCB; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 12:55:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxusgaltgw00.schlund.de ([10.72.72.46]) by mrelay.perfora.net (mreueus003 [74.208.5.2]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MI42y-1k9i2X3p5a-003tAu; Wed, 02 Sep 2020 21:55:55 +0200 Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 15:55:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Timothy Mcsweeney To: Ted Hardie Cc: draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org, Barry Leiba , Brian Carpenter Message-ID: <597003237.420857.1599076554610@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: References: <159893058662.23844.17177953972396775177@ietfa.amsl.com> <1066090379.166058.1598958286518@email.ionos.com> <674529702.175704.1598975928192@email.ionos.com> <808181205.131590.1599043971572@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.3-Rev19 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:O6498VtxYlZXHpgzr4WWmoyy35mdaUseH6eK7BWC9zobs2w/mPn NcUvs9jqQSC88lqCAWM5HOtTuR4kWzWBh01oZ6IpLgYIZPSm7d/kruNRuH/nN1fxarOALQQ 6OlCLfsvDusyOGmGs1gf1z/qcVnPv1eVGJNVZ1+hToDtEVT5M+1i3Ph8p43zhjM8RPK1Bxz SirExzoNYENf8RLPhMNuQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:aA4evnTzK2E=:42mu5OAtj9WdrJEkSqym+w c3+DqxNDs74jr6lVuzjMxCZaplZ2kilrbc8ziRY0WO+TYOqEI4o9In0q9oqHma1nbVVtOlHKz N1Tvz72788/gyf+PoaLX05wrdl5budjnfAMqvtYWiqpje61M4ZnZT3cyn8IlDEEHmu44p84O1 9Mrt4QLx6s9eUG9lOy8kCgIv73OKWfnzOJDqTPqnAH4P3MXe2Xsa4ZcHplPodPI8ucpnCxjvw obwcvSendpVyZCmH+xVQjPwVmRhM4XgV7NRSRFjAIm1knOda9X5TuuaxzFk9p7ugDhibYoGaz tZ/qXlniVe1gq7ohto/d6Qa+PWteshNW03byx0M5L1I/6e8wHuuM1lFFDtioojTXEj1icMo4r /TJpk4lC3bCvLJxDkqRkp2uQfxyE+PKSMevQlzaJr6miIqfZhVYfs0eWziCc0oiK2FsvcRpws 9RG5wG5exHwLLPqiCE3VV+RVFieRlDaneZq8F2apsGg17NeiQYRS1FQStyjrZ90PSYxJvNgQx P1zhv/ajzySLhxinAPyOskIybW/Hd8Y4E8Qid4n+yJxBD5qOkxwr2c0jwTyUWqsuOdFkW9NFw CqF+bGutNpB/ICxCANZSRj8PyfH+zHcnzgmFpoX2v47QaA8c/SdRjcxy2aZ/+0BmtFsfEytTn +eYbfjprDyGHNjqSRtv1T7oSKKtEQO9JvaakeLRUEnmIHtfDmLkqfjWoWtdRpp4Lh4wC+gwlx jtu0tarevuqKFtwhtdgACkA+csQZzSFtta/6vNE+bZBKM4kNCrKGEojKkVauIaoAcygD+JLyV tl4jEk2FL8HAh7nz62cwhbUxqaN3j7HuKUb57lHdBxgcCiNGWhjNfq1vv0EX+dHiZIvoS+Y Resent-From: Resent-To: ted.ietf@gmail.com, superuser@gmail.com, barryleiba@computer.org, barryleiba@gmail.com, spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com, dispatch@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20200902195600.3AE8B3A0DD1@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 12:56:00 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Last-Call] Genart last call review of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2020 19:56:00 -0000 
>Is that right?


The first thing I would change in your draft is from this:

3.  IANA Considerations

   This entire document is updated instructions to IANA.



To this:
3.  IANA Considerations

   This update does not change the IANA Considerations in RFC 3405

 
From nobody Wed Sep 2 13:34:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 49EA43A0EBD; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 13:34:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E82983A0EB8; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 13:34:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.046 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.046 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.948, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yDkOI4xaRNnh; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 13:34:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x542.google.com (mail-pg1-x542.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::542]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 371C13A0EA8; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 13:34:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x542.google.com with SMTP id p37so280693pgl.3; Wed, 02 Sep 2020 13:34:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=pqvBsVaXVA8jlqNh8ypQ7dg5jjqMTD6zLVmIGxh3kxE=; b=dmzGueXHbooH4xvG2VaGFlSO883NSviqftSOB6GhxuwjLjU5lkMqnEIiqjvddFrjdj Wf794SyqvZprNkeCNU0t3HwtzM3bYkZbb+9eBK0fc1+MEQHXHklHCiE4ntJKXPlBNUfC nTY2KJu8iygQgc3cpgXHSLOLvqzvK6nkA2Bmlayq3NITDRXgUQ7gYkDtnElg057boGXu 3VQHPcF0golWk3lc8lDTq6Nt4gi02PpP6ZZQKfZNxIBMeH1VAqum4Fhchxr4C7RO5k6n Vh21PB8WvExdKqXKpLqAFO81cj+APxyusqJE2ziwc68L2jXzjApPsr5/SW1zuoOMJwEs RAYg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=pqvBsVaXVA8jlqNh8ypQ7dg5jjqMTD6zLVmIGxh3kxE=; b=LDoN8PWThEjdvjCvH6f6TdD92RHFGTsBtE6ldFIz+H4NzEOWnYpSPAKdEInrfZtiNt QuuWCdTbeOTQYtkC7AOMtTPg1KhqhE/oFMWPLU5HA1dMXvEeybMCoQUARbzDE9uGbt4i i0VZIdtkz/MbsRL6kKmqS1YXtjOEoPy0a51Rlmj+uCxjoq/vJaHN9ElkOic4gqtu26tx T+OrnHrZ2TraZmcLindOG5Z9YQBzRj/F2CuUx9QfItMyIowvegVY8aBdav/YKlcBCdDN eWPB5h8bPl6nj5JnF2e/g1UXVgVDeEtTbSpa6GKiC1XGOtDb/z8aiZLwcJUtU4KTvm+L MAUg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533tAhPnYCX6+HY1dKmArOtEia9nQAe9ljQmitClJqaZwyRCaGD+ iXTv4hziff/pwqS3A4mQeB8K79QGoDn6vw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyU0CcweHQfLRwIekX2hsQk3dCCCw91xs9a4KbrzheDBvk+IhobyDV9VwBjOHtPbJ6zgEnuqg== X-Received: by 2002:a65:6282:: with SMTP id f2mr3329731pgv.163.1599078880305; Wed, 02 Sep 2020 13:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.139.192]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id bj2sm270216pjb.20.2020.09.02.13.34.36 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 02 Sep 2020 13:34:39 -0700 (PDT) To: Ted Hardie , Timothy Mcsweeney Cc: "Murray S. Kucherawy" , draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org, Barry Leiba References: <159893058662.23844.17177953972396775177@ietfa.amsl.com> <1066090379.166058.1598958286518@email.ionos.com> <674529702.175704.1598975928192@email.ionos.com> <808181205.131590.1599043971572@email.ionos.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 08:34:34 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-From: Resent-To: ted.ietf@gmail.com, barryleiba@gmail.com, barryleiba@computer.org, superuser@gmail.com, spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com, dispatch@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20200902203443.49EA43A0EBD@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 13:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Last-Call] Genart last call review of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2020 20:34:43 -0000 On 03-Sep-20 05:41, Ted Hardie wrote: > To reply to the text change in particular: >=20 > On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 3:52 AM Timothy Mcsweeney > wrote: >=20 > __ >=20 > >>This draft could spell out each of those edits precisely, or just= replace all of Section 3.1.1 with a new set of text.. > =C2=A0 > And it should.=C2=A0 There is no legitimate reason not to.=C2=A0=C2= =A0 > =C2=A0 > =C2=A0=20 >=20 >=20 > You would prefer changing this: >=20 > 2. Updated Requirements >=20 > This document removes the normative requirement from RFC 3405 for > registrations in URI.ARPA to be from the IETF URI Tree. >=20 > All registrations in URI.ARPA MUST now be for schemes which are > permanent registrations, as they are described in BCP 35. >=20 > to something like this: >=20 > 2. Updated section 3.1.1 for RFC 3405 >=20 > The following text replaces section 3.1.1 of RFC 3405: >=20 > 3.1.1 Only permanent URI registrations allowed. >=20 > All schemes registered in URI.ARPA MUST be schemes which are > permanent registrations, as they are described in BCP 35. >=20 > Is that right? Re-assuming my hat as a Gen-ART reviewer for this draft, I think that thi= s change would be a mistake, as it no longer explicitly informs the reader= what has been changed in RFC 3405. If we really want to be precise, I suggest: 2. Updated Requirements =20 This document removes the normative requirement from section 3.1.1 of RFC 3405 for registrations in URI.ARPA to be from the IETF URI Tree= =2E All registrations in URI.ARPA MUST now be for schemes which are permanent registrations, as they are described in BCP 35. Regards Brian >=20 > regards, >=20 > Ted Hardie >=20 > >>... seems equivalent and unambiguous to me. > =C2=A0 > No surprise here.=C2=A0 Maybe the IESG isn't a good fit for you.=C2= =A0 As a matter of fact, if I were Barry I would drop sponsorship of this= draft for all the reasons above.=C2=A0 > =C2=A0 > =C2=A0 > =C2=A0 > =C2=A0 > =C2=A0 > =C2=A0 > =C2=A0 > =C2=A0 >> On 09/02/2020 1:49 AM Murray S. Kucherawy > wrote: >> =C2=A0 >> =C2=A0 >> On Tue, Sep 1, 2020 at 8:58 AM Timothy Mcsweeney > wrote: >> >> >While it's certainly possible to add such guidance now, this = update is=20 >> >> >very narrowly targeted to fix a serious problem, and I would = not want >> >debate about additional text to get in the way of that. >> =C2=A0 >> And doesn't using this draft as an update of the entire IANA c= onsiderations section effectively remove any means of registration throug= h the mailing lists provided in that same section??=C2=A0=C2=A0 >> >> =C2=A0 >> This draft doesn't replace the entire IANA Considerations section = of RFC 3405, but rather amends it.=C2=A0 That is, after this is published= , to get the full IANA Considerations for BCP 65, you would read RFC 3405= and then apply this document as a sort of "patch".=C2=A0 That's what we = mean when we say "RFC Y updates RFC X", which will be the end result here= =2E >> =C2=A0 >> The specific effect of this document when published is to amend Se= ction 3.1.1 of RFC 3405 such that instead of saying "registered under the= IETF URI tree", it becomes "a registered permanent URI scheme", and then= take "tree" out of the next sentence, and rename the section to somethin= g more appropriate.=C2=A0 This draft could spell out each of those edits = precisely, or just replace all of Section 3.1.1 with a new set of text, b= ut it's such a small change that what's here seems equivalent and unambig= uous to me. >> =C2=A0 >> -MSK >> -- last-call mailing list last-call@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/last-call=20 >=20 From nobody Wed Sep 2 13:48:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 393AB3A0EFC; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 13:48:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEFB03A0EFA; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 13:48:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4MSN-VTx4P2w; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 13:48:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x235.google.com (mail-oi1-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 743FE3A0EEB; 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Wed, 02 Sep 2020 13:48:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <159893058662.23844.17177953972396775177@ietfa.amsl.com> <1066090379.166058.1598958286518@email.ionos.com> <674529702.175704.1598975928192@email.ionos.com> <808181205.131590.1599043971572@email.ionos.com> <597003237.420857.1599076554610@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <597003237.420857.1599076554610@email.ionos.com> From: Ted Hardie Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 13:47:57 -0700 Message-ID: To: Timothy Mcsweeney Cc: draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org, Barry Leiba , Brian Carpenter Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000011d6b405ae5ac298" Resent-From: Resent-To: ted.ietf@gmail.com, barryleiba@gmail.com, barryleiba@computer.org, superuser@gmail.com, spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com, dispatch@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20200902204832.393AB3A0EFC@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 13:48:32 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Last-Call] Genart last call review of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2020 20:48:32 -0000 --00000000000011d6b405ae5ac298 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Timothy, That change would not match the rest of the document, because it does change the IANA considerations. Given our previous conversations, I assume you mean by this that you oppose the changes. I think the clearest way to register that opposition is simply to oppose publication. Barry and the IESG will have to determine which is the consensus position. If I have misunderstood you, I would be happy to hear how to reconcile the proposed text below with the rest of the text in RFC 3405 and this document. regards, Ted HArdie On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 12:55 PM Timothy Mcsweeney wrote: > >Is that right? > > > The first thing I would change in your draft is from this: > > 3. IANA Considerations > > This entire document is updated instructions to IANA. > > > To this: > 3. IANA Considerations > > This update does not change the IANA Considerations in RFC 3405 > > > > > --00000000000011d6b405ae5ac298 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Timothy,

That change woul= d not match the rest of the document, because it does change the IANA consi= derations.=C2=A0 Given our previous conversations, I assume you mean by thi= s that you oppose the changes.=C2=A0 I think the clearest way to register t= hat opposition is simply to oppose publication. Barry and the IESG will hav= e to determine which is the consensus position.

If= I have misunderstood you, I would be happy to hear how to reconcile the pr= oposed text below with the rest of the text in RFC 3405 and this document.<= br>

regards,

Ted HArdie

On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 12:55 PM Timothy Mcsweeney <tim@dropnumber.com> wrote:
=20 =20 =20
=20
=20
=20
=20 
>Is that right?


The first thing I would change in =
your draft is from this:

3.  IANA Considerations

   This entire document is updated instructions to IANA.



To this:
3.  IANA Considerations

   This update does not change the IANA Considerations in RFC 3405

<=
a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-=
03#section-3" name=3D"m_-3034779668970664179_section-3" target=3D"_blank"><=
/a>
=20
=20
=C2=A0
=20
=20
=20
--00000000000011d6b405ae5ac298-- From nobody Wed Sep 2 14:55:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id A98D63A10A7; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 14:55:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45BA13A109D; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 14:55:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.796 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.796 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6JA8_dkFx96x; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 14:55:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3902F3A1099; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 14:55:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxusgaltgw15.schlund.de ([10.72.72.62]) by mrelay.perfora.net (mreueus004 [74.208.5.2]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mad3m-1kpgdC15lS-00cCYW; Wed, 02 Sep 2020 23:55:16 +0200 Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 17:55:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Timothy Mcsweeney To: Ted Hardie Cc: draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org, Barry Leiba , Brian Carpenter Message-ID: <1773111715.104993.1599083716164@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: References: <159893058662.23844.17177953972396775177@ietfa.amsl.com> <1066090379.166058.1598958286518@email.ionos.com> <674529702.175704.1598975928192@email.ionos.com> <808181205.131590.1599043971572@email.ionos.com> <597003237.420857.1599076554610@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.3-Rev19 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:SmZKIlKbVi5IgI3WEwTVgLs5Hq4UxB4dmFgD6BHo7DvJRQpLtt5 l6g6wsL74eCVvtsBabktqNV1UuCmStSf49j1ico0G4KBNROqs9BHJU7s91v2szlGr4NFKF+ uSyd/HxVgxjomt3Hzy4ZFoOpMRGL9ceNVYkCPeupyohUrIlML+8OXMFv+Ih0WFiK296SMll +lwrAzIsS/pXmuPDhS08Q== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:XYghMOFeZNw=:Qu1/a0vBkYt0Uo4VJdzYGy vo9f59wDF5znEFYoGadCMlxm2vaW0npYTKU6yc74huKVThIAVAsU2sMjfyJkQos8A9xQvmmQg OJdiKBGPW7D5eF4SwdtWI4tlUfxWLkKyMyVKHZBm34A3x5poOWDsv+T2mggA4m6O3IFKvfezW QvCWbmkEz4c7qKy5moEXkrESVH61qUyT2j9ElIS+MG6b+RWQ4FUc8wWm6Tlrvbb50+tZ0yK00 agHizwSZ2t6No++85uw6hWMnHVkRz0+FY4H1rDHG3bQHsOR3MMWwKJXSp7WxMwdiLAxn3bplO 7O6lTCJxxOLqsOViAWdXIsJtLY9p+W0ZUQAZa0cM2OfHppxKg4lamYTRyjeS23RQ6ExuNtnnQ p3++h0m+d0hoXD2fZL4wlwpyV6I3vhHSQ8OPZjFHPOURUqGtVeXE+fcAKdTCR5cgFK6krTH8I PgAjg8Q05/fOdQVkjN22djDK1aDF3CGRa0K8F4Qqzz1NFcq77MwsHm8j/z9cxcx9XEFDIK6bg pnTmeO2DNU/+eZof3cILznPxzuh9QVWYIndAgGfOFuCFSBrvABEI7ZVp5QJtLD0fjK8sWlD20 FYHRnWbMq/s6xspaEBPKkODpJwVs8tqOQ0RoZP3tmFWTRsGBoM4DFIstRGfCF+ID/J24BIDVz yI+sib2byUzwNUwLvPeEH1HdKidUxQenywNhdhtt3eU7WV6rNNNdcrjKj6XcHpgGNo2j9kl7O 5zGaITm/RA5RtEBMIP5u6+ZO4+hTCVtNG91qB2rlmHN6UfGCzTuQbwXaNAWv+2cRHuLN7uj7F fEMkR8sqKP7X1/jHtOlxQRtr3G8r7fTq0d1jsgaiy8P7krYY67DlPbOkhqFHu77AqM4IxFi Resent-From: Resent-To: ted.ietf@gmail.com, barryleiba@computer.org, superuser@gmail.com, barryleiba@gmail.com, spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com, dispatch@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20200902215519.A98D63A10A7@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 14:55:19 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Last-Call] Genart last call review of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2020 21:55:20 -0000
Ted, 
 
> I think the clearest way to register that opposition is simply to oppose publication.
 
I want to help you improve this document.  
 
 
 
Tim
From nobody Thu Sep 3 03:00:58 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id CCCBE3A0DE9; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 03:00:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CCCE3A0DEB; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 03:00:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.798 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.798 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PPAPhPfovqs1; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 03:00:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.196]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E32D33A0E10; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 03:00:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxusgaltgw03.schlund.de ([10.72.72.49]) by mrelay.perfora.net (mreueus004 [74.208.5.2]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mir4C-1kjVpM2oaa-00exjJ; Thu, 03 Sep 2020 12:00:48 +0200 Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 06:00:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Timothy Mcsweeney To: Brian E Carpenter , Ted Hardie Cc: draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org, Barry Leiba Message-ID: <592053892.283347.1599127247758@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: References: <159893058662.23844.17177953972396775177@ietfa.amsl.com> <1066090379.166058.1598958286518@email.ionos.com> <674529702.175704.1598975928192@email.ionos.com> <808181205.131590.1599043971572@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.3-Rev19 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:54aA954m1Ud3vyVJNrAVVKZOzihSP/UxNijCoB0Y3YEKu61NTuB VO+qx8HhF6WmPaKmB3YljT5rRg4UU9RZ3su9E4QPoTGKpO7WQPNScmIrfyV1YFmsCYv+HtY FrxHiHHQxB61+DSg3L/vO1cSxvAjrOpvbY5fbtef49HIhUx5zhXeiatrpuxXuYg0qQpNz2z jd5YPGSzHC6fQQpFr2ucw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:QE9R9o7XR1M=:2+kipddiNE0O70GuOvstdx PEv7iNqLvrmFCl2L2Yxyc4+rJ1Gj6seGpBVijK9TsDtPWQF2Nzi57FXweFAxndZytMKtMv3lC bn6hsV5M2xFwEAQ2ObE7KtpqPLRYnQ+QG0NUIkiVB0QOECQOwf8FHZkw8zm/L5LtDSY6nVNi9 J8lzdGKycgjhCFNQHLPVMFOe50QakHentHgo4N79oV1n9eMqKG9MGsJhRLRpjwEcu5MOnITfa YynWqtGr51EfbMozGjr2xbCBqIP24ZxjfeM5yypM+BFCnljsyG094uqS1KsiA9Ezjrr8KZfRp B8f3kBquXYEesRibmT3rMDgaEE6cLIH3ZSLhLqzPxupZbT4MzjFmq8wwJMBO8A16t1VN1RmbA gABZY7o0w2ZkTbZGwjVVI2bfAe/mr2N5ESfVd2uON6+6lwRe2Ylu8PBIXs5v8dkailwzqagSI cBk0/7xYJLHSqm7UFIp77sftjJUOvuHU12qlnKpct/NkzV3Jg8lYVuBoBLRUU5KDcwpLDqC8+ KsK8r407gb6yQxxLpMROkcl2cO5b7QH3OW1d9HfFVq0fvbgC0cIhAxiJ6fAxjGXdJcxyeRHI1 qhteKY6awipcWIyhXb+wLhtraYXOMwaAwZ1pTE1DS+7Y19+Asexqf3nPBQ8yW6z5VAVZUj//7 +Kw/X8irayARTfSpwN2g7AGRZAeRXv5y213+iGv9H82xLWWjgkpPTG4sb4xtK3TOINHQeiYjm 3xcuwIRODY31St42vRtln3x0mMTbgKiH2SOlql/J6Fc8P3ayBzPXoh+1t9+WwOtBnn99xkGkY OGQp+pN27zpWRdqGYBKpnE8TEiV8iOljQQoUS8VmMBy44IwoPyFmAKolxw+0izMVuloMLHi Resent-From: Resent-To: ted.ietf@gmail.com, superuser@gmail.com, barryleiba@gmail.com, barryleiba@computer.org, spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com, dispatch@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20200903100053.CCCBE3A0DE9@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 03:00:53 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Last-Call] Genart last call review of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2020 10:00:54 -0000
Hi Brian, 
 
>Re-assuming my hat as a Gen-ART reviewer for this draft, I think that this
>change would be a mistake, as it no longer explicitly informs the reader
>what has been changed in RFC 3405.
 
>If we really want to be precise, I suggest:
 
>2. Updated Requirements
 
>This document removes the normative requirement from section 3.1.1
>of RFC 3405 for registrations in URI.ARPA to be from the IETF URI Tree.
 
>All registrations in URI.ARPA MUST now be for schemes which are
>permanent registrations, as they are described in BCP 35.
 
 
In the interest of brevity, we probably don't really need that second sentence.  And it might help to open things up a bit.
 
 
Tim
From nobody Thu Sep 3 03:14:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 6240E3A0EC4; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 03:14:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61AEA3A0F36; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 03:14:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.795 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.795 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AuSkk5Cjy8Qw; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 03:14:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D05053A0E8B; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 03:14:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxusgaltgw03.schlund.de ([10.72.72.49]) by mrelay.perfora.net (mreueus004 [74.208.5.2]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MbjWM-1kqhNc34VK-00dIWw; Thu, 03 Sep 2020 12:14:34 +0200 Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 06:14:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Timothy Mcsweeney To: Brian E Carpenter , Ted Hardie Cc: draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org, Barry Leiba Message-ID: <916398430.283512.1599128074641@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: References: <159893058662.23844.17177953972396775177@ietfa.amsl.com> <1066090379.166058.1598958286518@email.ionos.com> <674529702.175704.1598975928192@email.ionos.com> <808181205.131590.1599043971572@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.3-Rev19 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:gkKxrtYR6/eeI5+Y2LUoxbkiXDYmASA2XiEjwUxYVAHdWDW2MsG a/yZ72kgGYFffm0RD1OXkFEVQTHFd5BvuTqzuhU4nw4hGRkRWh2RIAMQMNadRLlhs7IMOpi 0CEvqtSCuCzY4kfo6pSuZ1Fp1xwrjsnCF5kEaX4T9a/TOUgWTjaBxNPdYvQvbOykjMWbrf2 9CsDRTY4owCP4qPQEoorg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:LJM4uXBiEU0=:sNzJe3pwDY99bBbdv17l3U cMcfvXkHvUBfPWtgebk486fR4l4dNqPpLjdvszBPJGmvTUQHh2t9Z8Z96xI2yXl+lf1MtPFFT 6Cvtpi2u3PSU7AkmX3LUz0P7duqohfRzXqw9GvEKi3DuObzFl/mjK9bsizkL9TLwAcavU/eG/ 7DJQ9UBQL4GeM/MKuTy48cGFWWbdxph8fZf1nCfyFEg+kYgG8XWdW7jZ3kb8gr6h4hDo7ai9n 2ppbZqU9PvwSc09TMRfRHYCsQrnB3fsoMROT0aej6+CEXQyPXbNo2rmttOlcHKDsgUeVquSR1 znrx739de8qN382eV1gJ7mA1seDjYpkTKPXeJNQWhexs6phBQAJBRrcwGjXevKImWIM3wWEBl c1YqAMBDmFDGdAVbIax3lamvFpjnTJZpp1mwNwG3YtmXSsdw3HHbFvlJKAE1tfMCb+UrBXYuO FD/2tA2uiX1n2yUJpHxY4ELKc0/KyVL4JvO3PCvyUfeW8o0Fad1LAR7oevuRlfUF7d6GR786p uNr98SjnL4m8l8C1A6Vxbk0/ruM5gpMHN9t9+6+iFZUKlTnVxHZVXbmydPCUPL+D/L9Op8syt l/G2z11D7cdT62ZQ1aTHZrsa/m6aDPuGXroHhf371ymf/LP1cy/vyGgrskgq78+U1wa07oEa3 EET3C9gT1aU26PgG9wYstwy3qAU3noqe78RzR/DWb4yvNqW5piq2IjVGSPHON4iQfozUCEdVF bPfZzTv0HTmLOOqTf00nPXFRx1vm+CKHt8NKMJ4KIpGP1gLtTV9quTq38xx+rqsUgy+aHQyGv unU+rz3HVoJHu5dIxX09ZStDnGUuoHGNg+VhxX8V9YrJ7rtrWb8RhfTIMnSw65EVG5iGKoH Resent-From: Resent-To: ted.ietf@gmail.com, superuser@gmail.com, barryleiba@computer.org, barryleiba@gmail.com, spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com, dispatch@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20200903101448.6240E3A0EC4@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 03:14:48 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Last-Call] Genart last call review of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2020 10:14:55 -0000
Hi Brian,
 
>Re-assuming my hat as a Gen-ART reviewer for this draft, I think that this
>change would be a mistake, as it no longer explicitly informs the reader
>what has been changed in RFC 3405.
 
>If we really want to be precise, I suggest:
 
>2. Updated Requirements
 
>This document removes the normative requirement from section 3.1.1
>of RFC 3405 for registrations in URI.ARPA to be from the IETF URI Tree.
 
>All registrations in URI.ARPA MUST now be for schemes which are
>permanent registrations, as they are described in BCP 35.
 
 
 
Sorry, I want to make my last comment more clear.  
In the interest of brevity, we probably don't really need that second sentence.  And its removal might help to open things up a bit.  So section two would now look like:
 
2. Updated Requirements
 
This document removes the normative requirement from section 3.1.1
of RFC 3405 for registrations in URI.ARPA to be from the IETF URI Tree.
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Thread-Index: AQHWgE/GhFxkFDy9GUeFVCpzkBbQtqlUJdQAgAAOKACAAOgAgIAAVNqAgAByRQCAADBDAIAA4UGA///9GoA= Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 13:50:25 +0000 Message-ID: <862B493D-1189-459C-8C39-FF60F7C2C085@akamai.com> References: <159893058662.23844.17177953972396775177@ietfa.amsl.com> <1066090379.166058.1598958286518@email.ionos.com> <674529702.175704.1598975928192@email.ionos.com> <808181205.131590.1599043971572@email.ionos.com> <592053892.283347.1599127247758@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <592053892.283347.1599127247758@email.ionos.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.40.20081201 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_862B493D1189459C8C39FF60F7C2C085akamaicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.235, 18.0.687 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<20200903135037.13C393A0C47@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 06:50:37 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Last-Call] Genart last call review of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2020 13:50:37 -0000 --_000_862B493D1189459C8C39FF60F7C2C085akamaicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 ICAqICAgSW4gdGhlIGludGVyZXN0IG9mIGJyZXZpdHksIHdlIHByb2JhYmx5IGRvbid0IHJlYWxs eSBuZWVkIHRoYXQgc2Vjb25kIHNlbnRlbmNlLiAgQW5kIGl0IG1pZ2h0IGhlbHAgdG8gb3BlbiB0 aGluZ3MgdXAgYSBiaXQuDQoNClN0cm9uZ2x5IGRpc2FncmVlLiAgV2UgZG9u4oCZdCB3YW50IHRv IG9wZW4gdGhpbmdzIHVwIGEgYml0Lg0KDQo= --_000_862B493D1189459C8C39FF60F7C2C085akamaicom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <411B4E3EF7F9104989F6263021825A7E@akamai.com> 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In-Reply-To: <916398430.283512.1599128074641@email.ionos.com> Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 09:14:05 -0500 Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Ted Hardie , draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org, Barry Leiba Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9C86A277-47EA-47D8-8B09-1236BFDD1530@nostrum.com> References: <159893058662.23844.17177953972396775177@ietfa.amsl.com> <1066090379.166058.1598958286518@email.ionos.com> <674529702.175704.1598975928192@email.ionos.com> <808181205.131590.1599043971572@email.ionos.com> <916398430.283512.1599128074641@email.ionos.com> To: Timothy Mcsweeney X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Resent-From: Resent-To: ted.ietf@gmail.com, barryleiba@computer.org, barryleiba@gmail.com, superuser@gmail.com, spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com, dispatch@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20200903141428.13F943A0CD1@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 07:14:28 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Last-Call] Genart last call review of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2020 14:14:28 -0000 > On Sep 3, 2020, at 5:14 AM, Timothy Mcsweeney = wrote: >=20 > Hi Brian, > =20 > >Re-assuming my hat as a Gen-ART reviewer for this draft, I think that = this > >change would be a mistake, as it no longer explicitly informs the = reader > >what has been changed in RFC 3405. > =20 > >If we really want to be precise, I suggest: > =20 > >2. Updated Requirements > =20 > >This document removes the normative requirement from section 3.1.1 > >of RFC 3405 for registrations in URI.ARPA to be from the IETF URI = Tree. > =20 > >All registrations in URI.ARPA MUST now be for schemes which are > >permanent registrations, as they are described in BCP 35. > =20 > =20 > =20 > Sorry, I want to make my last comment more clear. =20 > In the interest of brevity, we probably don't really need that second = sentence. And its removal might help to open things up a bit. So = section two would now look like: > =20 > 2. Updated Requirements > =20 > This document removes the normative requirement from section 3.1.1 > of RFC 3405 for registrations in URI.ARPA to be from the IETF URI = Tree. I disagree with that change.=20 The sentence you propose to remove is one of the main points of the = document. Dropping that requirement would, for all material purposes, = give us an IANA registration policy of FCFS. I don=E2=80=99t think = it=E2=80=99s appropriate to add schemes to the URI.ARPA zone without = substantive review. Ben. From nobody Thu Sep 3 07:41:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 7E54A3A0E77; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 07:41:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51CDA3A0E5C; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 07:41:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.796 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.796 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bSpcOk1qym_p; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 07:41:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A7B03A0DFA; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 07:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxusgaltgw00.schlund.de ([10.72.72.46]) by mrelay.perfora.net (mreueus004 [74.208.5.2]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mg7F4-1kmf4c1GIA-00hici; Thu, 03 Sep 2020 16:41:32 +0200 Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 10:41:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Timothy Mcsweeney To: "Salz, Rich" , Brian E Carpenter , Ted Hardie Cc: "draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietf.org" , "last-call@ietf.org" , Barry Leiba Message-ID: <5651394.455176.1599144091918@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <862B493D-1189-459C-8C39-FF60F7C2C085@akamai.com> References: <159893058662.23844.17177953972396775177@ietfa.amsl.com> <1066090379.166058.1598958286518@email.ionos.com> <674529702.175704.1598975928192@email.ionos.com> <808181205.131590.1599043971572@email.ionos.com> <592053892.283347.1599127247758@email.ionos.com> <862B493D-1189-459C-8C39-FF60F7C2C085@akamai.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.3-Rev19 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:ryGqqd/H9/dTuXSii2LI3p6GE2DWJ8gE/iAy+8iKJ+I+Yppo/2D awJQ3KapS6DVyp6ziLY2UrcRUBXx2o6e9+fUB8hnqVyHb5NGbVJKbq4rHdwUg6Wp/HmXSZi creA8wCrpX0m5MvXpBERrvnRZOr+Expz5q5xakFWp6nq88QHBFgVJqMa/IJk5PfrkkQ21ZL XKYzhkm6VRIXAONm+Fp8A== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:cxf5j9iP+FA=:vE33ei5AzAagORWtVZTD/b B5Sh9QEwHCHJb2J4DjPIsjgwMO7rgrxDTGVaszS/h5+Gx3ecHqw8XGGAVbHSFkotQFFGkKL8V E+yMXhTwgwDXofutkcA2L88RaRz9Ho9f2NbG0UAt+JkWRg2G/uJNOjKttR2vGQeS3pkEirUow jT55LhBRIpg1l363CLxi1uH2iwEL/g92JoTlyb0IQoBoXq/JLTJvQ0Sr2QZseXNYUUEUNe76L pGUvJbm07k5PGI6WWEYIGfhR0tyHxaWeV+bdP119fp6ys36LJeHKcP8REUbi5HFZeJb18Fopa by4W5YF6oNs9CeN987FAFvMKMMqDgKu/eJdQEoivtTQP8VvGiKBuaUsZVPr85nxno3iC/Ylld JNXBRAaDv1P/SsZgEfXhuk5L0IyA/1bekS2h+ayxR+/dXcVBlhMpK9BrLRMriQEK5/qHEgnFS wcl+CMTLLoKgN+dKmzfEGOx8guZ/wFzpdg4QCmGTSAMudyfIz4INtxl7WbA5rblXTceTrUD3A EHOnvccJNYuhaYxk0MWwAUJhtvrufZU0m5Cous5Ybtmf5sDoeP3a6jD7LIAe795KeFPWXmf+2 5pgmNhh9ZYSdAMs3kLcxqE69Kbw1GvzMaY/W/XwaiAzko8PtRxvQY8kvQEf1TYt521ILcUXD/ 1nHC/j5wLMn47LmYsWhKs5IkRTe3z+VYg73myhv0LyJEOv0Gud4FzanCVQA9eoCI022kHX6Y1 mvScZmUCTVmNEJJSE+GLDmgXxuH+qWjcKBrpkEvl9Ijn+Y33EwMCbVH60kzK6K3aMFODtok8L LYJ2P7Vs7+8U2u79r6uT+6rhXgRQecDtuxpsmxVvk0lRXe2jGaVagYrh4laAra5kBexLw5J Resent-From: Resent-To: ted.ietf@gmail.com, barryleiba@computer.org, barryleiba@gmail.com, superuser@gmail.com, spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com, dispatch@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20200903144152.7E54A3A0E77@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 07:41:52 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Last-Call] Genart last call review of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2020 14:41:57 -0000 =20 =20
=20
=20
=20

=20

>Strongly disagree.  We don=E2=80=99t = want to open things up a bit.

=20

Who is we?

=20

 

=20
=20
=20
=20
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2020 11:26:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Timothy Mcsweeney To: "Salz, Rich" , Brian E Carpenter , Ted Hardie Cc: "draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietf.org" , "last-call@ietf.org" , Barry Leiba Message-ID: <1039507146.458563.1599146775391@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: References: <159893058662.23844.17177953972396775177@ietfa.amsl.com> <1066090379.166058.1598958286518@email.ionos.com> <674529702.175704.1598975928192@email.ionos.com> <808181205.131590.1599043971572@email.ionos.com> <592053892.283347.1599127247758@email.ionos.com> <862B493D-1189-459C-8C39-FF60F7C2C085@akamai.com> <5651394.455176.1599144091918@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.3-Rev19 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:oqMCDI48wMiEK/WTzPDYirHH1u3AAJ01xhovfn1puicBcI+CioH GvotSYAA8lCMYz7L5LugU56I/3BymxJQi20cffkMURW8IMvx4ccBrytRcGzIL1IcBJBTjZR 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BMnEi2zD9RlXV2GbiABR47+Kzo71NXBLJUu66JejvLScxj4Ik7YcJPdxPUOs9K0YW1WILhT Resent-From: Resent-To: ted.ietf@gmail.com, superuser@gmail.com, barryleiba@computer.org, barryleiba@gmail.com, spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com, dispatch@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20200903152622.8CF4A3A0F3E@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 08:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Last-Call] Genart last call review of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2020 15:26:23 -0000 =20 =20
>I don=E2=80=99t think you are participating in good faith. Please st= op
=20
Rich, you have to attack the ball and not the player. =20
=20
 
=20
But to your point, I am acting in good faith. 
=20
 
=20
>We don=E2=80=99t want to open things up a bit.
=20
 
=20
I am trying to open up an standard that is closed so tight that nobody h= as used in almost twenty years.  As best I can tell, all those who are= opposing me have never, and will most likely never have any interest in pr= esenting a new uri for that registry.  That fact should give my opinio= n at least equal weight in this debate.
=20
 
=20
Tim
From nobody Thu Sep 3 08:50:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 745123A0E21; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 08:50:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17A433A0E02; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 08:50:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, MAY_BE_FORGED=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dfDhw2BCTOOo; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 08:50:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E18F63A0DED; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 08:50:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bens-macbook.lan (mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 083Fnt5J033054 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 3 Sep 2020 10:49:56 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1599148198; bh=zr+gmufLnXJ82tbr8krY6kIF+dD641AaLi9H+Us/o1U=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=uhKOdIJD9WiegcvP8Dksyh2+q3+US84gLX7d/YLFmiMrhI/ZFpf33DRYW/MGlHaNl W1Z+cP2ry2kOoj4vr1gGJfHrsyEuZlNPYlys//eDm8gsfGZHuHiJttAVaZGW41dCmx 3b3IRsEl9nhA/l+KgaIcRMwCg/Gnas79ZmyCcCnc= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged) claimed to be bens-macbook.lan Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E3480EDF-C098-4DC6-A757-508BD3A0820A" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) From: Ben Campbell X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <1039507146.458563.1599146775391@email.ionos.com> Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 10:49:50 -0500 Cc: "Salz, Rich" , Brian E Carpenter , Ted Hardie , "draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietf.org" , "last-call@ietf.org" , Barry Leiba Message-Id: References: <159893058662.23844.17177953972396775177@ietfa.amsl.com> <1066090379.166058.1598958286518@email.ionos.com> <674529702.175704.1598975928192@email.ionos.com> <808181205.131590.1599043971572@email.ionos.com> <592053892.283347.1599127247758@email.ionos.com> <862B493D-1189-459C-8C39-FF60F7C2C085@akamai.com> <5651394.455176.1599144091918@email.ionos.com> <1039507146.458563.1599146775391@email.ionos.com> To: Timothy Mcsweeney X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Resent-From: Resent-To: ted.ietf@gmail.com, superuser@gmail.com, barryleiba@computer.org, barryleiba@gmail.com, spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com, dispatch@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20200903155018.745123A0E21@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 08:50:18 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Last-Call] Genart last call review of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2020 15:50:18 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E3480EDF-C098-4DC6-A757-508BD3A0820A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Sep 3, 2020, at 10:26 AM, Timothy Mcsweeney = wrote: >=20 > >We don=E2=80=99t want to open things up a bit. > =20 > I am trying to open up an standard that is closed so tight that nobody = has used in almost twenty years. As best I can tell, all those who are = opposing me have never, and will most likely never have any interest in = presenting a new uri for that registry. That fact should give my = opinion at least equal weight in this debate. >=20 There have been new permanent registrations as recently as 2018. = That=E2=80=99s demonstrably more open that the original =E2=80=9CIETF = Tree=E2=80=9D requirement, which was impossible to meet. Ben. --Apple-Mail=_E3480EDF-C098-4DC6-A757-508BD3A0820A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On Sep 3, 2020, at 10:26 AM, Timothy Mcsweeney <tim@dropnumber.com> = wrote:

>We don=E2=80=99t want to open things up a bit.
 
I am trying to open up an standard that is = closed so tight that nobody has used in almost twenty years.  As = best I can tell, all those who are opposing me have never, and will most = likely never have any interest in presenting a new uri for that = registry.  That fact should give my opinion at least equal weight = in this debate.


There have been new permanent registrations = as recently as 2018. That=E2=80=99s demonstrably more open that the = original =E2=80=9CIETF Tree=E2=80=9D requirement, which was impossible = to meet.

Ben.


= --Apple-Mail=_E3480EDF-C098-4DC6-A757-508BD3A0820A-- From nobody Thu Sep 3 09:01:14 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 879B73A0F88; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 09:01:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 273073A0F85; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 09:01:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.795 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.795 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g3aumXNlPCo1; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 09:01:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76CA43A0F54; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 09:01:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxusgaltgw00.schlund.de ([10.72.72.46]) by mrelay.perfora.net (mreueus002 [74.208.5.2]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LmJSm-1knkS00m38-00Zx8U; Thu, 03 Sep 2020 18:00:58 +0200 Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 12:00:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Timothy Mcsweeney To: Ben Campbell Cc: "Salz, Rich" , Brian E Carpenter , Ted Hardie , "draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietf.org" , "last-call@ietf.org" , Barry Leiba Message-ID: <968507419.461369.1599148856288@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: References: <159893058662.23844.17177953972396775177@ietfa.amsl.com> <1066090379.166058.1598958286518@email.ionos.com> <674529702.175704.1598975928192@email.ionos.com> <808181205.131590.1599043971572@email.ionos.com> <592053892.283347.1599127247758@email.ionos.com> <862B493D-1189-459C-8C39-FF60F7C2C085@akamai.com> <5651394.455176.1599144091918@email.ionos.com> <1039507146.458563.1599146775391@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.3-Rev19 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:jh11sRDcF7h+58cnoGZpxEi/nU3Ezd+YNPaQfBg2hyuC9pSdGtT XBI0vauZdaeSXCekoIb4bP0qiIxcT/yoP6KeWPmEFEt/ZaptcjOamuPC4NlGnWrZnlmVlX4 kBx+ikCNDgYRXXdG4v+ZOBxJOOMqkEddkfguhLbDCegpI7Am7mbSr+MDKCnm//Ofb23kcSf T6lUdy7q1VUVwZd9S6RQQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:4WMh4wAH9MQ=:3itG+xZCKnfiw/gXWe6cFF K+roC+7k4fPKXmKtG9mizp6HFzKgx8XCw4EblPTXwwAz/tJGybcAW8ejMuGh0BTdDRNgd9Aho MFTcLmbV2PUdNj/vRkA5x8WTIFkqlJgaRy9vqmouPVG88LlP5ZkNyKrMjDIWQcBA1kGtI5FWc T3NvJt+HCzgG2xcKJzMljF34qbwh52pSnLvjDE4XITrrlcPIA3316ojQaeElHGyfErUPbmF98 HCYdmHNFSaNNtkF7fdrXiwII7ZzYU7wkK+UGMAv4ckj8PSqyEW6O5fEFTkSR3yAUStg8nHLBJ M3gO/rH2VJl/Ix43Grn9/UFNbij2tMcQreEG1FFCYMciAEipmTYr/8vUpwnUC/jxEZx5OOFeR X9/huEnm8UCgF9vH9K3NEgDv+RNA0pgSqG8vfNO5ly5rXPPG1lhl6GAWBaIQcI5jk0mPvffWY F4xPWmqJhuUoJplvkLaqhMv/cpKQtbl8v45qJEYwvfFZL3+dyhzOMnAQ/kGPJFCi2b+9h1d7f yddrJ62Qr2yuF219DSvNALfU5E/GEOfuJ2RZ7Wpn8LBtQBUTTQShxM8WLfP43t/SxvethHyIT oI+KY1L2zE9L8dFrcEYwC/Hk9LSoBiHES0NEuWjjdgd+wT0sguVQsfDeJxrmUdf9GbzCwSSrj xIXyPFMpu+O5hUV+U/1mp0TAJpVJ0fJvnjEfWA4n80M+Zl2RKd3pYEe4LvY8kfeZoKu+47rzE FKI+5BprkiqSthvuvVIz/veuIPL5r3Ye3MCth/heAqiXFJ2/46wEWyv2YqOTt//lly/0gfqtl iUuUO74dM6kv/FjnSwymAkd0SyIhPzZIJlCHES/8OqgOy26AQi9Ny4HiuTyun3p4Xz98GA9 Resent-From: Resent-To: ted.ietf@gmail.com, superuser@gmail.com, barryleiba@computer.org, barryleiba@gmail.com, spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com, dispatch@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20200903160110.879B73A0F88@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 09:01:10 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Last-Call] Genart last call review of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2020 16:01:11 -0000
We are talking about URI.ARPA Ben
 
From nobody Thu Sep 3 09:02:07 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 7908D3A1015; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 09:01:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D11EE3A0F9C; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 09:01:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.795 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.795 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mD0T1L2EZR7Q; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 09:01:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 825BA3A0F95; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 09:01:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxusgaltgw00.schlund.de ([10.72.72.46]) by mrelay.perfora.net (mreueus002 [74.208.5.2]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LwJuC-1kdwoI1Xxu-01837Y; Thu, 03 Sep 2020 18:01:36 +0200 Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 12:01:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Timothy Mcsweeney To: Ben Campbell Cc: draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org, Ted Hardie , Barry Leiba , Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <384677436.461410.1599148896274@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <9C86A277-47EA-47D8-8B09-1236BFDD1530@nostrum.com> References: <159893058662.23844.17177953972396775177@ietfa.amsl.com> <1066090379.166058.1598958286518@email.ionos.com> <674529702.175704.1598975928192@email.ionos.com> <808181205.131590.1599043971572@email.ionos.com> <916398430.283512.1599128074641@email.ionos.com> <9C86A277-47EA-47D8-8B09-1236BFDD1530@nostrum.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.3-Rev19 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:VFr5XKjj2L48dFv9iwX8eZHNz2IpraVn+C2k5e9Jlxz08632J3Q 4MUuo0WxBVvC9sZHtILbN3od4BeNSGX8xIi1JAZ/EK9t7pRFiAD4wEyDQjfvWfSrFExDTB6 2kZK9eSSgYh4aACooL4s14n+eb/+qG+RmCQO8q+D1P1an25Rf/YRLS721lxRLsfaI9ojmb0 fS6mOysRnQLT0ezOgWE6A== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:gbKg14fvV3c=:L0CkvMyr+xGrLzl1Poci5G 1G8Jw5n5MVxL0lxSfQLV2FSpAoJwA3NFO3h+7sPGNhaB1VCAkq4PWVPlI9e5Ihxhyq4fupZKK s2rQDOfxSYUudGNoI2WmCPYzAqLVeAzxy+ityc3GC113sEc3ShA8RoiznP06FoQUzVCOWapLd OvEq56S668Fw0c904aYODuLKg3Zu+G4gxEM+lmVT1+yDjSegPCRjkVm6azux29qJsb+kPi8kK QjUByQQCQcacft3C9dvwYLuGUuM6fTWE+ySwbYkbKCHJqUz5XQ0fg5y4yYrLnWEDcMhjx0+Ls ajrLyfnpZ96WX3nc4CMKoc/3IUZTa5/qx+lR1fj6TtqCa8LF/8OGAG+duNJ6fRu1AGxBVWZw4 GDO9BHCcJfqGLQttM6bbcS41ugm4LbYA+9bvQ2j2vxlhPz5Bg6kwEDkYGzaXklCJPd23FWrA5 teYsRTdtZJEWe1bZkmRPPH1w/T1ENahQEom7KCSmujUN3LuQfXZM/ncQQuHgspMpIEmYpYB+I 17HDDhkyxHOPMMNdXBN4C4anewsZ4Hn/TsHm9Zb/NjQ6XmDX1ikwQTiG+hFoVzX2IM1trewkp /ydJTyrD/Ssh8WixrM1s0DnS6STX+1Ug1eWzwUmGCzGoTe0YKyMcZEPIGk6V2Hjue7WpA7/gP pB92ZfLurXQ74U4CBcj+JKZpgUlMoWy78P5gSd8KOaw66WzLC82RG1rC2sBLeWtQE+E+XFclN QfzLz2VpP0CLnnbckMqGNlMzzAnyRpVrgRLolCxndQHHKz5DkZOD84K6D4gKlIb4uE6UkPvCc MYNNHivVGW1TCqNr5cWHskS6cl6qeMWno7vrrv2Fp8p19oF9hWNQ4kSK/o4Xxw9XFvE+GzS Resent-From: Resent-To: ted.ietf@gmail.com, superuser@gmail.com, barryleiba@computer.org, barryleiba@gmail.com, spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com, dispatch@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20200903160158.7908D3A1015@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 09:01:58 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Last-Call] Genart last call review of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2020 16:02:05 -0000 =20 =20
=20
Hi Ben,
=20
 
=20
>I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s appropriate to add schemes to th= e URI.ARPA zone without substantive review.
=20
 
=20
Why do you say that?  If all the DDDS rules are followed the recor= ds entered into the zone should not have any technical problems.
=20
From nobody Thu Sep 3 09:03:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id DCFFA3A0FC8; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 09:03:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFA6A3A0FD4; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 09:03:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.798 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.798 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2PCeyWKKy-Ze; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 09:03:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.196]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 471C83A1015; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 09:03:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxusgaltgw00.schlund.de ([10.72.72.46]) by mrelay.perfora.net (mreueus003 [74.208.5.2]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M1Dv4-1kXsWI32WO-00t9LP; Thu, 03 Sep 2020 18:02:50 +0200 Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 12:02:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Timothy Mcsweeney To: Ben Campbell Cc: draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org, Ted Hardie , Barry Leiba , Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <80653043.461504.1599148969376@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <9C86A277-47EA-47D8-8B09-1236BFDD1530@nostrum.com> References: <159893058662.23844.17177953972396775177@ietfa.amsl.com> <1066090379.166058.1598958286518@email.ionos.com> <674529702.175704.1598975928192@email.ionos.com> <808181205.131590.1599043971572@email.ionos.com> <916398430.283512.1599128074641@email.ionos.com> <9C86A277-47EA-47D8-8B09-1236BFDD1530@nostrum.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.3-Rev19 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:drkY5hUTGRHdaWTMz4zII7+JxLhcxcaEaIzsfY1Q7LAAnYj+Cdu pJlI1ZP9zKZgBekLAuLEj7Uxs/1kOYcwxBkQW9rTbUk/BFMTwDXR3SfJeIGhbyQpJAHIPkA VyAEzXj/TJGC1kvh08yg6K1SX5o+/VpqyGNWozuOlUTKajmlwML1ZpcyYXNPfmPArXpMEWF 1/yjsYA6zXXF5Xc8XXa5w== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:dQ5tW3C0oUE=:HVrgT0oumCzU4ydUAC7a6R ee6n9fT7tnXKWL3o2Xpuo5mTMCUhAVebi1PO9YBzZrZeRwtzWOn6vAN+96e8ZIoMC2TTxXPUJ gkZPUPexTFiWUmiK7jI6PNba46dWCVQ1LiKjKJYsb0zmJY1lcpwyHJqXgiItHSuhDYGpMFoxg zgX3dePSkH3GyRQsSUGD/PU/K4728NzBPfp0R8R0FjaUbmftXkUl1bvL2tpu8GMRhw0Eqkwn+ 0/HZKNgIUAC08asQC6ULWzRs9In/u8Q3OovwX+xmn6EMxUG5leg+7Xv7VCkfc/Lu1MGhrPq85 N6LSngXmJM26rPdvi7e7RtXqwyebr2wH7ykIg7OCkzFTmpRtiXuvZ6LWRnXFKlEjL2ez0H9YQ 6fHZzrIyA5XabHjUB64fXYpe7P9Z3shHhXFwP3JIS8hfAOVR/FcIwWuPcb52wGvvN4bsg7uIA 9N8YEfMQ2xOYtc3KkMoHimnG8DJqifJspyOdho8Lbz2bPL356pLtufNFipBrKc5vJGKVXQk3P 0jH+RM9jRqZNNLfUYMixku0RTOcq+0hiBKrnHDUq6m2oKPsPH2q9gdaP7kwltNNxX517iuQp/ MTEJn2lJukvhHhXHcfxvC9uk0vBI1LrY9xwbWZZicMLmQp7N1zDCmjCSaB7UInOb5paF195wL PRnKZOD8lvS0mXJnskWlbErPeRcqVt2JDj4nWBXO3crJ10oUwNxihyds0kH6v1gMQIM3ZYFWk YfdVBRo33UlE9BYD5OGtIV8CJrmW7NwFcmP4YbalBxTM6NCT2NNkC1ImFEvlKR4HkWiSLBhje BTJ8w4OdWQorlK4wbD79V1w2+qJCRFsdIfKJzdTWGdr/pgAwUrNvzG8RsZz5rXignzNfcwz Resent-From: Resent-To: ted.ietf@gmail.com, superuser@gmail.com, barryleiba@computer.org, barryleiba@gmail.com, spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com, dispatch@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20200903160313.DCFFA3A0FC8@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 09:03:13 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Last-Call] Genart last call review of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2020 16:03:21 -0000
 
 
>The sentence you propose to remove is one of the main points of the document.
 
Not really.  Its a sub-point of a sub-point of a main point....just like 3.1.2.  Come to think of it, I'm working on some language for 3.1.2 also.  So for now the document would look like this:

2. Updated Requirements

This document removes the normative requirements from section 3.1.1
of RFC 3405 for registrations in URI.ARPA to be from the IETF URI Tree
and 3.2.1
 
3. IANA Considerations
 
This update does not change the IANA updates in RFC 3405
 
 
 
From nobody Thu Sep 3 11:31:10 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79B643A1131 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 11:31:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.847 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.847 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.948, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RDywEvNPPHQJ for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 11:31:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 012F33A1136 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 11:31:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1599157861; bh=5zfIGdBrTMsIpdIdRxgVmH8ZoJqy33yRz30zxVAsVpo=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=k79f4WM5pSWomHcTcmPvaQZ09h8ex2rBURBSLjzM7MQCrZHWEdmMIckOy4lgRBxVW E2SNQjyWYLU90hNy7LEIgTSG6AWvi7LQ/jr4MbEBzAjx72m2Ycf5hLXnm0N+ykA/OK qQvY7jWutcRuSIkoJmBEIjLlQ0WzqB0eB1hRiSwY= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.124] ([84.171.154.242]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MC34h-1kPhJA0pQL-00CObT for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2020 20:31:01 +0200 To: dispatch@ietf.org References: <159893058662.23844.17177953972396775177@ietfa.amsl.com> <1066090379.166058.1598958286518@email.ionos.com> <674529702.175704.1598975928192@email.ionos.com> <808181205.131590.1599043971572@email.ionos.com> <592053892.283347.1599127247758@email.ionos.com> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 20:31:00 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <592053892.283347.1599127247758@email.ionos.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:6guMpoNphuuzF/dOERbC9Dq+lA1Ys81VXGYWYbfwjn6qEQnJnjm ehoZnCcnjrJkEjVrEFdrmeusv07hDfQi6+d6F/f2LCxLroF+BEPx5EX9o12/+FpZZ5cUXwx nGLN1sEtZgFQA7otpFdSmturPq+ZxORzHl2+Hq/96GUMynZQ+uiOTuPnvwioa58kyzVxCSS 9dNuSur+vjP8rLivG0onQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:2lmPVJwWNUI=:ySv0kNgfoMHSXs6LRqxeVi UnI4aHZ08MeQUI4o1xhVQBP9fCKYokJ56ySjr1KSCxF+4ilB5Ua+CWTyM1aNlAs6jeTgzeIZe aUltctavIu964h+Uib0GeZCLS/2cH9dmWQGmaQSzAsvX7mksX1MtHTgmY+awaDO2+CmPWssg3 CP54p4vrzInqdwN8hULDpL59zDALaw1wcrfXBvYllUPC5qS/OYjEe0BzjE6llYC3kCURdih6Q PrnI7TcguMXuWr7sPGGmnHe01Z5Q2QybdN8A2Qrk8NSCMBvV9fQo9laCLPtJmNzZUNqYLfAsO k6uVfoAHSnud4VScC88Piib9uoeXqP1ldVGybLcXTtHR7LVVtWbU4oVWznLXUd2L0jiDnGZg0 cYmbcawCLJNa+b8q4800yoiMnlrlRS7uWaaLFnhlZtUwgUD8jhjTdnX7VVgMmPAL8D2cR9IRt zxdaPz/5CqM02G0bBhCCLAivtICSHOudBSrtKBfXo/SJvEq4XW6VY5xMR/zooxCSC3d02pgcR 9B0civlTCifFmHXRXdCAYcCC4EJBnfsOKNIW9Ka7bLDS1wPz/SzoKfcFkmAXiv2ATzfD8lY5Y N8msPKqRKiDTf+uT3K/fQ8/6HaN16/NCy3NSCL9mpeHCvqptKmRCD6Oxq8gpgkKA2ahRS0Em2 MG7JUQrdxzxRvWqC9yYKAjOxhjBW/r51dqUnD+RdUdhiq1ahKiqtu7FaNExqBCBBXIWwcoeUo p2Ol8WBZ6quTks4gg5PYRKCax+nZoe+VuC9PrzsMdscvcqBqgmr9EY8FUX/r9TaOruA3JX7A0 EqfAZFOpnP/TxT2Os8c/d8UBf9x7KKR+NQyCkv6ihrtudkVVYdNkAhOO/mNZ7VEd9naKKiAca OaHfVFYcidE9npLfEPTr7yCUAEK4hfhTYBTcCTMGkuW3TV9icIVZFQBBxsnphAAriNKdWlafT uUNe73I+7m2ErtH/rgMFMASRYSj/GthXfMDtjAkS9fDWxuvnlVIn2NetHuzPudbxJNkan2/sg DFzNrJS3p+MUFKGdGC+T6TuBlq+2Juw1Crq58H4AwqDSLClvj+s2CHvkMT+5JFwtLOEXhPWo6 GbhvWsP0923FUcGInn5PFj2fQAY57gRHDwzK6KS387cqtRkEeBYW2q9dKHfxHN3galv+xJcN3 FvZMzGXxa5sCE0XdsQeHeThKNmq14wUzAziUHqLgzGlVtT0OrtXoRn8I6oRphhytt1ejQcVZa m+zIKsA+JnHnTKOKFRKSLJwyB5hMnBTlrAIoVOg== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Last-Call] Genart last call review of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2020 18:31:08 -0000 Am 03.09.2020 um 12:00 schrieb Timothy Mcsweeney: > Hi Brian, > >Re-assuming my hat as a Gen-ART reviewer for this draft, I think that > this > >change would be a mistake, as it no longer explicitly informs the read= er > >what has been changed in RFC 3405. > >If we really want to be precise, I suggest: > >2. Updated Requirements > >This document removes the normative requirement from section 3.1.1 > >of RFC 3405 for registrations in URI.ARPA to be from the IETF URI Tree= . > >All registrations in URI.ARPA MUST now be for schemes which are > >permanent registrations, as they are described in BCP 35. > In the interest of brevity, we probably don't really need that second > sentence.=C2=A0 And it might help to open things up a bit. > Tim So even if that sentence was gone, you still wouldn't be able to register something that has not been registered as a URI scheme, because of saying "The creation of a given URI scheme or URN namespace id (NID) follows the appropriate registration documents for those spaces." (Or am I missing something?). How would that help you for your use case? Best regards, Julian From nobody Thu Sep 3 11:49:26 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52CD23A1161 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 11:49:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.795 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.795 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1QJGgs5Q7Ff5 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 11:49:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 07E3A3A1141 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 11:49:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxusgaltgw00.schlund.de ([10.72.72.46]) by mrelay.perfora.net (mreueus003 [74.208.5.2]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0Lpu1h-1kkCe93cXP-00fkMs; Thu, 03 Sep 2020 20:49:18 +0200 Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 14:49:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Timothy Mcsweeney To: Julian Reschke , dispatch@ietf.org Message-ID: <507665075.474397.1599158958769@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: References: <159893058662.23844.17177953972396775177@ietfa.amsl.com> <1066090379.166058.1598958286518@email.ionos.com> <674529702.175704.1598975928192@email.ionos.com> <808181205.131590.1599043971572@email.ionos.com> <592053892.283347.1599127247758@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.3-Rev19 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Nq2iFBM5YkiDYbD7wcSxYWH4k0JgpCBVT1/3hb3n3kgTYg687Cx DYVcIJUFXqM8CjDQyuXm9tHjFvIZk98VTQSqasEA+hbBVENY1ZN84Rdz2Il7SkazlWLdFe+ QwogI/heukOKzcH+QZRj/YKAEnC6cLqKWG/+wFJKNW7+OCNanreaUpwdaJe/xldYvppd6mG 9cbAOj3SrmLkG7ztpyCZA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:rmNJcP/Ga/w=:HnrLMwm17wHWrErN1GDftV Pevygl+rtkfKpsfYwd4W3RBVt6WzCz5z7hZ99aJLhD271FheZAKFhQXbHsIwYx+OF4Dp22k9g YBbVudRFFpTYmBOy3nYLV9lOR25VPnzYzC4LpaTGfmM3PWDktY6FlBkTFTEanaYsOw2TOzZ2I HMDpICEpFyk1xBbGfXfvas9OVUBtbiBhYq7oik8kpwgH0iNS46z1FJM36+8fengNpIbdEDvYn c8OnvP6IYjghBohWiBaqo1W4ipBVgMnzx3jQGnLuM2ay9V+LaCvAal5q6D577maaSH2Z2EmmG ZjDSIC1wehkdsSPz7tzhLHe5rxhuFiFSsmtAzuLj3UQEUs69oQiQ34kWtioV7w7mwL/BEK6Ay IcocMfjI4TyOSdRaAFu08+nn1XeZ4iHj1fjDWUrpVDpZ0OCkcR2Lj2sO1aRGOqP1Al1gBReC3 dkPmK6aBbw6RUYaou6prcdLhjtGQe99WbS3K/cqVzBP31s6BhXwE7tWb+2J62empsiRj3QCjt 7jjHWRp9S+jA8l/8cbZkyW556HEEaL+EVt81ANhf/cmRl7UtwfO/to7DGjacsCGMEPzp6Am/K BAkKTg58HwV0L6fuaJ5v2CnNm802sF0okYUgh14fpFVd/vUbrxwrX5BqvDKFHnmHDjRsHYHgA SMRcAq26ayOvZEV90mgq06mTyydAdyal6yukbk7VL8BIsOgbjarj9fOzAuNufPO5207DERQbd B+HCz8sBVdp17iH4wvzurAzxe0CjeXWJHaUUADXuAQzzYfL/O7RjIBRHmKxeAZ7/y6yvcjxW3 f7Q7ewTfO319k67hemhpsIwPor4jnso7EsxT9zFkeJoPNIX+i4qHOoKaw8KQ7Bux5o4wLXj Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Last-Call] Genart last call review of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2020 18:49:24 -0000
Hi Julian,
 
>So even if that sentence was gone, you still wouldn't be able to
>register something that has not been registered as a URI scheme, because
>of a given URI scheme or URN namespace id (NID) follows the appropriate
>registration documents for those spaces." (Or am I missing something?).
 
That is clarified with the procedures from next sentence in that paragraph.  (URI schemes
follow "Registration Procedures for URL Scheme Names" (RFC 2717) [10].)
 
>How would that help you for your use case?
 
I already have a registered scheme name.
 
 
 
 
 
 
From nobody Thu Sep 3 11:53:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41EF13A1164 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 11:53:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.795 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.795 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6qbrn-P6CgKA for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 11:53:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB7893A1162 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 11:53:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxusgaltgw00.schlund.de ([10.72.72.46]) by mrelay.perfora.net (mreueus003 [74.208.5.2]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MTAx6-1k6nNL3Qnu-00S5Ff; Thu, 03 Sep 2020 20:53:17 +0200 Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 14:53:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Timothy Mcsweeney To: Julian Reschke , dispatch@ietf.org Message-ID: <2033779822.474697.1599159197736@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: References: <159893058662.23844.17177953972396775177@ietfa.amsl.com> <1066090379.166058.1598958286518@email.ionos.com> <674529702.175704.1598975928192@email.ionos.com> <808181205.131590.1599043971572@email.ionos.com> <592053892.283347.1599127247758@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.3-Rev19 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:7RPrd5D1UmrBYurRQ76z1lYnXEr2Gr/8gd0LOWm/0M7o7/CqeIk viI3yDpZwmz0RaAQxQ8txUhxIhERYhhEmRH50jwEguY4QP1pnfwnszfUMz1fK/Xg3ELNHqm dJ5nKqXjTyVjJZgYgauyTygp+4OE+X7t+4c0fwl+Y1etctbeZK6hy72qRrLFAUGvxTJJi+z eyKtR++cmuKJeO4MDNivg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:MnPaXqUsmvk=:OXPk1KQVzttqDURjrzE/Co 91t6edC9IF1rBa70v6s8eA6/dxiui5D4To+RAUc7wSeq37dFlwzR1w++vuU7CzQP766OJ6Q5r eUDke3ZuFok7e90fLgBZXp0qpc2mLwR8xIRJxqkDFkAVnVNOg+PE+lY6Rvc8nwTa9sGi/1Tc6 Tcec3w4BEU23aPVr84EJ4Sxx4Hucd5N8KXkSBfZUdw92qZmtYx1FRUd0fjmB4DJmAfqSLyS7U jnr4k1aU9EKCEb3XHYEfG45e27u65SsuqOrNW3uaY5WXHNXGDNy1l3O6vk6ycn8auUrQwrUnv EplQmX8wYX0rmRxQV4Jg/i0wN7Q9TtPBCYRSCCcTvbGuqwd4x6SKNjElf04Pvxo/DiemCucIC wYiBtzbUTRxbXxJGZi26DhsHxwU0jlnz9LpiEXjBZEN5FtzDtxlx8yOvx9mBitoIiNxq7Y4VH ofC28qYwtb2785Zs3BdjblPTPMoZsbdRkBroEBMUBFjq0R6X8CH4dW+LIq+dfuQPAK2/I3DtP vKN94Wydt2k7wZMdYoD54E+0dSwkHyN78CQc+buwn4m2wHS5adS7fnPaUXu44PfA4BDfa8Ob8 +uFB8b9eoTvP/055NZAcG2fESzc230RVTvZqESth5oq1lzXnzb3zwGXklJNK2LRhwQw+RWWnJ w+rLJXsUxUEGQm91+fSVxNzCy73sjwhhbZXQGObfzYR7564XMAeWe2aYOPoQ0IuUHurLEWJUv VDTopvRMU6DDRUcnpbKrvhG12WYFtfiRMmlnWMRmRWEAdejFNUOaBbvhpfciwVlUU11OGiOkO phwumy/YT3v+y6iiqAzLKowxQmTZBOhinD6D1lX2qdprEzpOSzfGfXUH3+/aycQzoD93rWl Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Last-Call] Genart last call review of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2020 18:53:22 -0000
>So even if that sentence was gone, you still wouldn't be able to
>register something that has not been registered as a URI scheme, because
>of a given URI scheme or URN namespace id (NID) follows the appropriate
>registration documents for those spaces." (Or am I missing something?).
 
>How would that help you for your use case?
 
Maybe 'URI scheme'  in that first sentence should be changed to 'URI scheme name.  Does that sound good to you Julian?
From nobody Thu Sep 3 12:06:47 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AACD33A11C2 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 12:06:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.847 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.847 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.948, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7B3x8qBWm0F9 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 12:06:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B5A473A11C1 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 12:06:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1599159999; bh=zXL4NNNIc4aMocfaFbKXG8L/DE7oxYWi9UrL4HhzP6Y=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=WddnqtDQbQmX6a+nVjENNlhHMxnqRPs/hSrFwTShpsLGiDtoZAEzd0+BbkLfhf+gH s4n4dSt5rcuIKM5V87NDU/qmTl4EX1IyCruYT4caAb4ppHNlwfgXC2M7QIlPryiLNM r4WiCesOhT0ht+Z6ZBWKrkYJnmf4+bZQkLq1xp/U= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.124] ([84.171.154.242]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1M8ykW-1kB8bh20wQ-006Aao; Thu, 03 Sep 2020 21:06:39 +0200 To: Timothy Mcsweeney , dispatch@ietf.org References: <159893058662.23844.17177953972396775177@ietfa.amsl.com> <1066090379.166058.1598958286518@email.ionos.com> <674529702.175704.1598975928192@email.ionos.com> <808181205.131590.1599043971572@email.ionos.com> <592053892.283347.1599127247758@email.ionos.com> <2033779822.474697.1599159197736@email.ionos.com> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 21:06:39 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2033779822.474697.1599159197736@email.ionos.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:8stwwgqA/LF801DHdj6drkaoP9Pm0yeo0DqvNqjqrOGs1ASI9Ky LmBmyLDdYnYFxjv/APxZVDmuMz/izZoz87qp/NtaykYBqvM2QiuaYtziDqTDqZmmCxQ05ot Iy9x5so4qsuJ6RE1l3OLrGUSGlYTf9T39ke63BIzdyZGfxHXdwa/PyFDqCNhNfi2uua1HVq mBH0EQZHpk6dCr7eZR66g== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:1LhKn/gAP0M=:1WGLIkXtDi03y4Um//9wVy dPVif0N0W54hToEMxAfhuTjUIQLKu5FrbMV4F25sjiGcJIIJJn6gyDSvqDGYxKBUJJOQcPgHW oA1efXYtbOCqeMkfeIWzTXMi+2QLHEg1H+0e1glLeVYzq12ar72wwyi88v9XVU7T9MXdRVkUD rSudIG4/nCwwx0EnPrxWx0KFY+zTn1BYbD76XUEuOm5NeRN3AcbjVzhYit947mzWUyrdIqmyQ 0Q5MYIOikOy3O02QdKvxmbvfzI/l2i8T56dvNj5aR89+4IOmPROR1YVyx9AxZotgH91N4kM0d TBOwkyUQncJaifEqGx12jGaUQXV7g9TcC2uuFUO9MuInbRpA47Xt8xWTXyO8dJ+4TKRXWh+0b S2zStvZ07mNDDRPChcfdLAqPO7LUU1y4R6p3mpiXfrfM/gcGAS3u125ZZl/cjrpbWowZ2jURr Ux0Aw628HzKaTDXgFZSqlMwOszH4QqBwYkUth/2O/4ZRNHvuTWu+jtoWDV/Uk6jUnfyqdu5wm tAXbPbSi6BhZLw0xGjYtVqowfhXhPo7deIYUKese5Mn0z46IAqQOJ7HT5ln6bP4/eakAUaRTo SeG97sQfSUibpdI0cw/8UeXUHcNXEUQG5KqWcbiX+fFuItE8YN8jDqR3ol7P/Jr7W3PsQVApZ h/lUXonOVi3vm1UOZN98BJ+sPvROgYwyZ6IKylse2ADvKclumcJ0dm2sxx1I88LCqWaGhF5aq uLHg3c3cEBs6EFkdDEnY2rfUXvduLQaw1IsLa539+hfPq2MfUE326jk8gAhX/xB1D++wiVIJk 2ehyE1q1liPIiqifJNclthBFNPIN5IBzLBe6axMh4qD4ueroDqE00AofUaKzYtVOcFV6wVAAg XjVBoeRB2kRKLSfgANfzTI31PGB1pyowSN1lnD3A4FIu0qnbAeTPHn52DJngS+vZKKnQzO4D6 gC1kFMmnjvR7Yhvxb8jSHjsYPm/qpeCq4TUd2b8rRjORZpyOmeDJ5C9/+iGuBqfquat06S3v0 v9xYnBKHY16xNUUGvOpAa90Qux+cWuvmmq7su378kp8kPwMmfPF2RS+pWMpQgmh7YkiZ7O9pF x0THIhrUuquklOjbs8vlJyHqbVNpfEx6i+yttzyf+yN1+9ASECaf4cIJEZ2b+DhFsFQs0rxf3 LX3ijOJHBIgzW4pjSaJJkxBWByAC93qS73rbUtTvfuYO4jSV/M5XYsqGDUD8l8arzecHyXHSs s0erN3Q/ZgCe3eCFFf4X9iHCiivyfALr19lRV3A== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Last-Call] Genart last call review of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2020 19:06:46 -0000 Am 03.09.2020 um 20:53 schrieb Timothy Mcsweeney: > >So even if that sentence was gone, you still wouldn't be able to > >register something that has not been registered as a URI scheme, becau= se > >of > saying "The creation > >of a given URI scheme or URN namespace id (NID) follows the appropriat= e > >registration documents for those spaces." (Or am I missing something?)= . > >How would that help you for your use case? > Maybe 'URI scheme'=C2=A0 in that first sentence should be changed to 'UR= I > scheme name.=C2=A0 Does that sound good to you Julian? I actually believe that we shouldn't register things as URIs which are not URIs. But maybe I'm in the rough here. Best regards, Julian From nobody Thu Sep 3 12:13:50 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C366F3A11D5 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 12:13:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.796 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.796 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0qDTntcJexbc for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 12:13:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.197]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C25623A11D4 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 12:13:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxusgaltgw00.schlund.de ([10.72.72.46]) by mrelay.perfora.net (mreueus002 [74.208.5.2]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LonV7-1klLxD2SXz-00gnaV; Thu, 03 Sep 2020 21:13:44 +0200 Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 15:13:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Timothy Mcsweeney To: Julian Reschke , dispatch@ietf.org Message-ID: <467698485.476440.1599160424490@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: References: <159893058662.23844.17177953972396775177@ietfa.amsl.com> <1066090379.166058.1598958286518@email.ionos.com> <674529702.175704.1598975928192@email.ionos.com> <808181205.131590.1599043971572@email.ionos.com> <592053892.283347.1599127247758@email.ionos.com> <2033779822.474697.1599159197736@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.3-Rev19 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:l6Kacy9KHDfeqSK17C3Q6GOS0Qf5Y6rQUFFBrbR5EZMK7q5IvVP C3L18IG+wIP/HwrhyiOhPDr8m4ijlgV+eq6CIeiuHVKKNRFun6ac2L/jjHVOENe2TPKrZb8 XY0fVwSfidXWDT5fPMnbdqPIl3n8J/rWztfqyWh4NEO1T/eJ4qyCvfmX8nZ+HCd2aRwUB2k r/iryEwmLpJ1ztXbnWT6w== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:zfKPfhpImO0=:3fHLKwp5dQJ8/HX4FVqU6r 4Nawl+qI/tRkjmoF8KQ4RZt8tE1DWOLCw0dd8aYYdBvCYIdR9DW7d3lyx9AaSsVaL+rVGD95g ATNa0EexxBM/iBcC1gxmzTi/11hS0s6uibkLvt+M+Fm4/uWKssu7X5Vza4kxrG5Kdbdpqp9sH l+m5I+Uf+bnJv/aibjMf4R7R1jpPO4zIaWc6fRMXqBuqnAj+g7DzUMzy0VoKjNfLNxo7Xupuh RAkZF6r3xAfr7jS5lVUD9gbSACWpmQ1x94iTvbYNLHiutHF2ZrfMpEH8/BW/ti+e451VRbmtY wRQr92ea5/JYq7jQxcYrTLOKDYeYscIVz3hAhZF4+jLeWLVrp62usdTtS6edSlZBYXXgX6d00 9kSRiSk++osk5E9SGYbtknDAeO0Q0Lq5juj7Ue2j/DlA6RG1Qqj48CApPuzeTGZjBWTO5NOO3 dO9wN+mmOEhWUWF/vPj2pMkYujJWlI8luHysW3Bp8fSL3W8iTDQVVbuOKiCWO46cAXX/sVxm/ 4gIyJADeDlrvKFRYsc7Bl+qliixw41mVyd2WGy35uWE2NtvAB+MV4ItshTCyct/jj72BVaA19 /3zv7q6DcN5pEN80l76hwJgDQ/79V5FvwyEJ2HMCk8z03Se6Jhh+h7e610+VsWeKgty1IZ+An 36GplUnFatrme4oN5Vk++Z9RuXazYj3wfQPSFlzZLzlqrIf9go6P9BNlptWgBMov98p+ombHq sYsxOeuMjU4yKBN0+eaSlDovQ4C/ADbq2Q5LCVR2aapE9JX7QnMQulXmNXADy020IS/y/Vdp6 c+sLOwx4hXuZyTE2IwMax+gIFscc71KygXyGAFEpJoEcmhDpfI5CQoduzRSO90id+AsbiFw Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Last-Call] Genart last call review of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2020 19:13:49 -0000
>I actually believe that we shouldn't register things as URIs which are
>not URIs. But maybe I'm in the rough here.
 
So do you think we should add that clarification for future generations or just leave how it is?
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Sat, 5 Sep 2020 09:43:02 +0000 From: Shaun Stokes To: "dispatch@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: RFC 3261 section 14.2 - "brand new call" does not specify whether the SDP should modify media attributes of an existing session containing a=sendonly or a=recvonly Thread-Index: AQHWg2gYHH2V6BZ0ZUafyW0sY8KTHA== Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2020 09:43:02 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=sysconfig.cloud; x-originating-ip: [185.209.248.125] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: a5292dea-a132-4574-b418-08d851801549 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: CWLP123MB3537: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: QLMxtkADOPRGA5xbIrmJR3amHM4xKU68m+l8IURt6uFxsLO5HbMBcJ12iKRVbLjoK9R6zJBUXnWjeTfj9HXF4OWJC2pzJKRxxuTNrdepcUM+cevL03x1liJI0ntheDIJB9zoSwZdsq1OKNgO4nWS4CA6fTIAopkm+5Us8TxKM8+hTkDT+txloJbBAx0wdxRmX3FmNLvp4C1YTdxu047nMIsyuaROij9acnB+tZRmhWzK1oQpHCkWRQapKTSKJBSj7IyiNYd633Eg2/DPeszD5ntHn2kYy8N/SiFPZT/j1NQ5G03qeaRJlJEnqjlhe+VnQPlOxHu0kIDdAzQ60q3BIQ1BUgKjlIFXCINtdX4xkBfGj22OQB9ng3aXKItScvgO0jp38WmPZji/UyNVlOFO3KbHbWp8T5oNK8SjsYGe+77mTL2Vmq2XpEWZkzCCbrnitpc5KL7K2MIAj6Y62pzcBg== x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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boundary="_000_CWLP123MB2371666E1183360960FBE3DFB72A0CWLP123MB2371GBRP_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: sysconfig.cloud X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: CWLP123MB2371.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: a5292dea-a132-4574-b418-08d851801549 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 05 Sep 2020 09:43:02.6191 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 99e3da6c-7a85-49ad-978a-a3c1cfb6cbef X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: HefNhoPbizrFdfs1Oh1nmZ+wxv0DGNGVEG0hhzqHLHE4gaEku1g+ngp+Pu0S908INg0OCKihYgUmNOtWVrm+hg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CWLP123MB3537 Archived-At: Subject: [dispatch] RFC 3261 section 14.2 - "brand new call" does not specify whether the SDP should modify media attributes of an existing session containing a=sendonly or a=recvonly X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2020 09:46:55 -0000 --_000_CWLP123MB2371666E1183360960FBE3DFB72A0CWLP123MB2371GBRP_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, We are struggling with some of the interpretation used in RFC 3261 section = 14.2 which is creating a conflict between the software we use (FreeSWITCH) = and another environment (based on Cisco previously Broadsoft equipment) bot= h of which claim to be RFC 3261 compliant and claim that the other is not. The problem occurs when the 3rd party sends an SDP with the media attribute= 'a=3Dsendonly' on an existing session then follow with a RE-INVITE with-ou= t an SDP, they claim that our 2xx offer in response should contain an SDP w= ith-out 'a=3Dsendonly' (or replace with 'a=3Dsendrecv') based on the interp= retation of a "brand new call" used below. Anthony Minessale II (FreeSWITCH= lead) claims that "brand new call" is only intended to refer to codecs (no= t all media attributes) and that the 3rd party (Broadsoft) invented this co= ncept on their own. RFC 3261 14.2 UAS Behavior A UAS providing an offer in a 2xx (because the INVITE did not contain an offer) SHOULD construct the offer as if the UAS were making a brand new call, subject to the constraints of sending an offer that updates an existing session, as described in [13] in the case of SDP. Specifically, this means that it SHOULD include as many media formats and media types that the UA is willing to support. The UAS MUST ensure that the session description overlaps with its previous session description in media formats, transports, or other parameters that require support from the peer. This is to avoid the need for the peer to reject the session description. If, however, it is unacceptable to the UAC, the UAC SHOULD generate an answer with a valid session description, and then send a BYE to terminate the session. Source: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3261#section-14.2 The 3rd party have also stated that this isn't a call going on hold as it's= routing to an ACD group, according to RFC 6337 section 5.3 "the use of sen= donly/recvonly is not limited to hold". In the following discussion on this subject involving the authors of RFC 32= 61 there is a clear indication that a RE-INVITE with-out an SDP should not = modify 'a=3Dsendonly', unfortunately this isn't enough to support our argum= ent and our service providers protocol lead have determined that the 3rd pa= rty is acting correctly and have asked for more evidence. http://marc.info/?t=3D98738614300001&r=3D1&w=3D2 We have also pointed out that RFC 3264 section 8 states that the offer MAY = be identical to the last SDP provided but are promptly referred back to "br= and new call" in RFC 3261 section 14.2. RFC 3264 8 Modifying the Session At any point during the session, either participant MAY issue a new offer to modify characteristics of the session. It is fundamental to the operation of the offer/answer model that the exact same offer/answer procedure defined above is used for modifying parameters of an existing session. The offer MAY be identical to the last SDP provided to the other party (which may have been provided in an offer or an answer), or it MAY be different. We refer to the last SDP provided as the "previous SDP". If the offer is the same, the answer MAY be the same as the previous SDP from the answerer, or it MAY be different. If the offered SDP is different from the previous SDP, some constraints are placed on its construction, discussed below. Source: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3264#section-8 I'm struggling to find anything more in RFC which can support our argument,= is it possible to update RFC 3261 14.2 to be more specific in the terminol= ogy for "brand new call" or is this answered elsewhere? Hope someone here can help. Regards, Shaun --_000_CWLP123MB2371666E1183360960FBE3DFB72A0CWLP123MB2371GBRP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

We are struggling with some of the interpretation used in RFC 3261 sec= tion 14.2 which is creating a conflict between the software we use (FreeSWI= TCH) and another environment (based on Cisco previously Broadsoft equipment= ) both of which claim to be RFC 3261 compliant and claim that the other is not.

The problem occurs when the 3rd party sends an SDP with the media attr= ibute 'a=3Dsendonly' on an existing session then follow with a RE-INVITE wi= th-out an SDP, they claim that our 2xx offer in response should contain an = SDP with-out 'a=3Dsendonly' (or replace with 'a=3Dsendrecv') based on the interpretation of a "brand new call= " used below. Anthony Minessale II (FreeSWITCH lead) claims that "= ;brand new call" is only intended to refer to codecs (not all media at= tributes) and that the 3rd party (Broadsoft) invented this concept on their own.

RFC 3261

14.2 UAS Behavior
A UAS providing an offer in a 2xx (because the INVITE did not contain<= /div>
an offer) SHOULD construct the offer as if the UAS were making a
brand new call, subject to the constraints of sending an offer that
updates an existing session, as described in [13] in the case of SDP.<= /div>
Specifically, this means that it SHOULD include as many media formats<= /div>
and media types that the UA is willing to support.  The UAS MUST<= /div>
ensure that the session description overlaps with its previous
session description in media formats, transports, or other parameters<= /div>
that require support from the peer.  This is to avoid the need fo= r
the peer to reject the session description.  If, however, it is
unacceptable to the UAC, the UAC SHOULD generate an answer with a
valid session description, and then send a BYE to terminate the
session.


The 3rd party have also stated that this isn't a call going on hold as= it's routing to an ACD group, according to RFC 6337 section 5.3 "the = use of sendonly/recvonly is not limited to hold".

In the following discussion on this subject involving the authors of R= FC 3261 there is a clear indication that a RE-INVITE with-out an SDP should= not modify 'a=3Dsendonly', unfortunately this isn't enough to support our = argument and our service providers protocol lead have determined that the 3rd party is acting correctly and h= ave asked for more evidence.

We have also pointed out that RFC 3264 section 8 states that the offer= MAY be identical to the last SDP provided but are promptly referred back t= o "brand new call" in RFC 3261 section 14.2.

RFC 3264

8 Modifying the Session
At any point during the session, either participant MAY issue a new
offer to modify characteristics of the session.  It is fundamenta= l to
the operation of the offer/answer model that the exact same

I'm struggling to find anything more in RFC which can support our argu= ment, is it possible to update RFC 3261 14.2 to be more specific in the ter= minology for "brand new call" or is this answered elsewhere?

Hope someone here can help.

Regards,
Shaun
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Sat, 5 Sep 2020 11:16:52 -0400 To: Shaun Stokes References: From: Paul Kyzivat Cc: "dispatch@ietf.org" Message-ID: Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2020 11:16:51 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 78d9884d-0698-4ec6-9278-08d851aeb858 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: MW2PR12MB2506: X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:10000; X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: MUCC9DPowFr1ZJXEgK4Kwai6NmK/ZCORTBqrEe3d7Rypm0zsv6RG/UY9ykINob1lVzE20y0EqIR3cRAVbdDXhnEOwewr/sJj0U1mATuW9BC2Xv9KnEGtCJfdgxtwefaLh8ltw47yk4bEXVhtIvse+9fxSi4Mqm4exIi0Is0oGfHq4jibnbB5RtHUqXQ9yucMjM8FL2fmtJj0WeJoLQqsy7HXMs/j1QUyKKcflfjJMC8oD5YL70UEjLds4Cz5fqk9q358UZ99EdRtlwrJBrF04yTH00Rp+TKlUlwPWwZn4iUBhthwL/RNpOZHLaEM0y4KcVQVJaowRGDpw1rMDYEegeIhScp5Kc5/2Kt1dYsGMaRNfkHAkJOf4pLrX32zEtwlYO9EqYmAmZ8tOt12v5ke01kuSlkku66ZQgHQs4jSFJQyjtms96Q7sikWwWq573PA/2g7Dle1JMCXNVDNmMhq7EuK8YuSudpkrTjo/4+tCGB0IPswKSm0JMiOOY6dgvgIr//W+qs16FaufjpJa2v9lw== X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:18.7.68.33; CTRY:US; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:CAL; SFV:NSPM; H:outgoing-alum.mit.edu; PTR:outgoing-alum.mit.edu; CAT:NONE; SFS:(136003)(396003)(39860400002)(376002)(346002)(209900001)(46966005)(53546011)(82740400003)(26005)(4326008)(2906002)(356005)(7596003)(47076004)(75432002)(70206006)(70586007)(186003)(966005)(336012)(6916009)(82310400003)(83380400001)(31696002)(956004)(2616005)(478600001)(86362001)(36906005)(786003)(316002)(31686004)(8676002)(5660300002)(8936002)(43740500002)(6606295002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; X-OriginatorOrg: alum.mit.edu X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Sep 2020 15:16:53.1297 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 78d9884d-0698-4ec6-9278-08d851aeb858 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalAttributedTenantConnectingIp: TenantId=3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f; Ip=[18.7.68.33]; Helo=[outgoing-alum.mit.edu] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BL2NAM02FT055.eop-nam02.prod.protection.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Anonymous X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MW2PR12MB2506 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] RFC 3261 section 14.2 - "brand new call" does not specify whether the SDP should modify media attributes of an existing session containing a=sendonly or a=recvonly X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2020 15:16:57 -0000 Shaun, Take a look at RFC6337 (especially section 5.1) and see if it helps. That RFC was written to respond to many questions about O/A that came up over time. It is not normative, but rather simply clarifies things that are implicit upon analyzing an assortment of normative RFCs. BTW, dispatch isn't really the right place for a question like this. A better place is . Thanks, Paul On 9/5/20 5:43 AM, Shaun Stokes wrote: > Hi, > > We are struggling with some of the interpretation used in RFC 3261 > section 14.2 which is creating a conflict between the software we use > (FreeSWITCH) and another environment (based on Cisco previously > Broadsoft equipment) both of which claim to be RFC 3261 compliant and > claim that the other is not. > > The problem occurs when the 3rd party sends an SDP with the media > attribute 'a=sendonly' on an existing session then follow with a > RE-INVITE with-out an SDP, they claim that our 2xx offer in response > should contain an SDP with-out 'a=sendonly' (or replace with > 'a=sendrecv') based on the interpretation of a "brand new call" used > below. Anthony Minessale II (FreeSWITCH lead) claims that "brand new > call" is only intended to refer to codecs (not all media attributes) and > that the 3rd party (Broadsoft) invented this concept on their own. > > RFC 3261 > > 14.2 UAS Behavior > A UAS providing an offer in a 2xx (because the INVITE did not contain > an offer) SHOULD construct the offer as if the UAS were making a > brand new call, subject to the constraints of sending an offer that > updates an existing session, as described in [13] in the case of SDP. > Specifically, this means that it SHOULD include as many media formats > and media types that the UA is willing to support.  The UAS MUST > ensure that the session description overlaps with its previous > session description in media formats, transports, or other parameters > that require support from the peer.  This is to avoid the need for > the peer to reject the session description.  If, however, it is > unacceptable to the UAC, the UAC SHOULD generate an answer with a > valid session description, and then send a BYE to terminate the > session. > > Source: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3261#section-14.2 > > > The 3rd party have also stated that this isn't a call going on hold as > it's routing to an ACD group, according to RFC 6337 section 5.3 "the use > of sendonly/recvonly is not limited to hold". > > In the following discussion on this subject involving the authors of RFC > 3261 there is a clear indication that a RE-INVITE with-out an SDP should > not modify 'a=sendonly', unfortunately this isn't enough to support our > argument and our service providers protocol lead have determined that > the 3rd party is acting correctly and have asked for more evidence. > http://marc.info/?t=98738614300001&r=1&w=2 > > We have also pointed out that RFC 3264 section 8 states that the offer > MAY be identical to the last SDP provided but are promptly referred back > to "brand new call" in RFC 3261 section 14.2. > > RFC 3264 > > 8 Modifying the Session > At any point during the session, either participant MAY issue a new > offer to modify characteristics of the session.  It is fundamental to > the operation of the offer/answer model that the exact same > offer/answer procedure defined above is used for modifying parameters > of an existing session. > > The offer MAY be identical to the last SDP provided to the other > party (which may have been provided in an offer or an answer), or it > MAY be different.  We refer to the last SDP provided as the "previous > SDP".  If the offer is the same, the answer MAY be the same as the > previous SDP from the answerer, or it MAY be different.  If the > offered SDP is different from the previous SDP, some constraints are > placed on its construction, discussed below. > > Source: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3264#section-8 > > > I'm struggling to find anything more in RFC which can support our > argument, is it possible to update RFC 3261 14.2 to be more specific in > the terminology for "brand new call" or is this answered elsewhere? > > Hope someone here can help. > > Regards, > Shaun > > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > From nobody Sat Sep 5 13:10:56 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B49F53A0F54 for ; 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Sat, 5 Sep 2020 20:10:43 +0000 From: Shaun Stokes To: Paul Kyzivat CC: "dispatch@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [dispatch] RFC 3261 section 14.2 - "brand new call" does not specify whether the SDP should modify media attributes of an existing session containing a=sendonly or a=recvonly Thread-Index: AQHWg2gYHH2V6BZ0ZUafyW0sY8KTHKlaKFiAgABG7Ms= Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2020 20:10:43 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: alum.mit.edu; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;alum.mit.edu; dmarc=none action=none header.from=sysconfig.cloud; x-originating-ip: [185.209.248.125] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 83d711d7-2a50-4d18-f2eb-08d851d7c4aa x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: CWXP123MB2759: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Paul, Thanks for your response. RFC 6337 section 5.1 refers us back to RFC 3261 in case of a RE-INVITE and = "without regard for what the other party in the call may have indicated pre= viously" would suggest we should be using 'a=3Dsendrecv' in our offer. I previously tried to touch base with Henning and was directed to the dispa= tch mail list. I'll post the question to the sip-implementors mail list. Thanks, Shaun ________________________________ From: Paul Kyzivat Sent: 05 September 2020 17:16 To: Shaun Stokes Cc: dispatch@ietf.org Subject: Re: [dispatch] RFC 3261 section 14.2 - "brand new call" does not s= pecify whether the SDP should modify media attributes of an existing sessio= n containing a=3Dsendonly or a=3Drecvonly Shaun, Take a look at RFC6337 (especially section 5.1) and see if it helps. That RFC was written to respond to many questions about O/A that came up over time. It is not normative, but rather simply clarifies things that are implicit upon analyzing an assortment of normative RFCs. BTW, dispatch isn't really the right place for a question like this. A better place is . Thanks, Paul On 9/5/20 5:43 AM, Shaun Stokes wrote: > Hi, > > We are struggling with some of the interpretation used in RFC 3261 > section 14.2 which is creating a conflict between the software we use > (FreeSWITCH) and another environment (based on Cisco previously > Broadsoft equipment) both of which claim to be RFC 3261 compliant and > claim that the other is not. > > The problem occurs when the 3rd party sends an SDP with the media > attribute 'a=3Dsendonly' on an existing session then follow with a > RE-INVITE with-out an SDP, they claim that our 2xx offer in response > should contain an SDP with-out 'a=3Dsendonly' (or replace with > 'a=3Dsendrecv') based on the interpretation of a "brand new call" used > below. Anthony Minessale II (FreeSWITCH lead) claims that "brand new > call" is only intended to refer to codecs (not all media attributes) and > that the 3rd party (Broadsoft) invented this concept on their own. > > RFC 3261 > > 14.2 UAS Behavior > A UAS providing an offer in a 2xx (because the INVITE did not contain > an offer) SHOULD construct the offer as if the UAS were making a > brand new call, subject to the constraints of sending an offer that > updates an existing session, as described in [13] in the case of SDP. > Specifically, this means that it SHOULD include as many media formats > and media types that the UA is willing to support. The UAS MUST > ensure that the session description overlaps with its previous > session description in media formats, transports, or other parameters > that require support from the peer. This is to avoid the need for > the peer to reject the session description. If, however, it is > unacceptable to the UAC, the UAC SHOULD generate an answer with a > valid session description, and then send a BYE to terminate the > session. > > Source: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3261#section-14.2 > > > The 3rd party have also stated that this isn't a call going on hold as > it's routing to an ACD group, according to RFC 6337 section 5.3 "the use > of sendonly/recvonly is not limited to hold". > > In the following discussion on this subject involving the authors of RFC > 3261 there is a clear indication that a RE-INVITE with-out an SDP should > not modify 'a=3Dsendonly', unfortunately this isn't enough to support our > argument and our service providers protocol lead have determined that > the 3rd party is acting correctly and have asked for more evidence. > http://marc.info/?t=3D98738614300001&r=3D1&w=3D2 > > We have also pointed out that RFC 3264 section 8 states that the offer > MAY be identical to the last SDP provided but are promptly referred back > to "brand new call" in RFC 3261 section 14.2. > > RFC 3264 > > 8 Modifying the Session > At any point during the session, either participant MAY issue a new > offer to modify characteristics of the session. It is fundamental to > the operation of the offer/answer model that the exact same > offer/answer procedure defined above is used for modifying parameters > of an existing session. > > The offer MAY be identical to the last SDP provided to the other > party (which may have been provided in an offer or an answer), or it > MAY be different. We refer to the last SDP provided as the "previous > SDP". If the offer is the same, the answer MAY be the same as the > previous SDP from the answerer, or it MAY be different. If the > offered SDP is different from the previous SDP, some constraints are > placed on its construction, discussed below. > > Source: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3264#section-8 > > > I'm struggling to find anything more in RFC which can support our > argument, is it possible to update RFC 3261 14.2 to be more specific in > the terminology for "brand new call" or is this answered elsewhere? > > Hope someone here can help. > > Regards, > Shaun > > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > --_000_CWLP123MB23710CFC5F5C1C35E335242EB72A0CWLP123MB2371GBRP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Paul,

Thanks for your response.

RFC 6337 section 5.1 refers us back to RFC 3261 in case of a RE-INVITE and &qu= ot;without regard for what the other party in the call may have indicated p= reviously" would suggest we should be using 'a=3Dsendrecv' in our offer.

I previously tried to= touch base with Henning and was directed to the dispatch mail list.=

I'll post the questio= n to the sip-implementors mail list.

Thanks,
Shaun
From: Paul Kyzivat <pkyz= ivat@alum.mit.edu>
Sent: 05 September 2020 17:16
To: Shaun Stokes <shaun@sysconfig.cloud>
Cc: dispatch@ietf.org <dispatch@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] RFC 3261 section 14.2 - "brand new call= " does not specify whether the SDP should modify media attributes of a= n existing session containing a=3Dsendonly or a=3Drecvonly
 
Shaun,

Take a look at RFC6337 (especially section 5.1) and see if it helps.
That RFC was written to respond to many questions about O/A that came up over time. It is not normative, but rather simply clarifies things that are implicit upon analyzing an assortment of normative RFCs.

BTW, dispatch isn't really the right place for a question like this. A
better place is <sip-implementors@lists.cs.columbia.edu>.

        Thanks,
        Paul

On 9/5/20 5:43 AM, Shaun Stokes wrote:
> Hi,
>
> We are struggling with some of the interpretation used in RFC 3261 > section 14.2 which is creating a conflict between the software we use =
> (FreeSWITCH) and another environment (based on Cisco previously
> Broadsoft equipment) both of which claim to be RFC 3261 compliant and =
> claim that the other is not.
>
> The problem occurs when the 3rd party sends an SDP with the media
> attribute 'a=3Dsendonly' on an existing session then follow with a > RE-INVITE with-out an SDP, they claim that our 2xx offer in response <= br> > should contain an SDP with-out 'a=3Dsendonly' (or replace with
> 'a=3Dsendrecv') based on the interpretation of a "brand new call&= quot; used
> below. Anthony Minessale II (FreeSWITCH lead) claims that "brand = new
> call" is only intended to refer to codecs (not all media attribut= es) and
> that the 3rd party (Broadsoft) invented this concept on their own.
>
>     RFC 3261
>
>     14.2 UAS Behavior
>     A UAS providing an offer in a 2xx (because the= INVITE did not contain
>     an offer) SHOULD construct the offer as if the= UAS were making a
>     brand new call, subject to the constraints of = sending an offer that
>     updates an existing session, as described in [= 13] in the case of SDP.
>     Specifically, this means that it SHOULD includ= e as many media formats
>     and media types that the UA is willing to supp= ort.  The UAS MUST
>     ensure that the session description overlaps w= ith its previous
>     session description in media formats, transpor= ts, or other parameters
>     that require support from the peer.  This= is to avoid the need for
>     the peer to reject the session description. &n= bsp;If, however, it is
>     unacceptable to the UAC, the UAC SHOULD genera= te an answer with a
>     valid session description, and then send a BYE= to terminate the
>     session.
>
>     Source: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3261#section-14.2=
>
>
> The 3rd party have also stated that this isn't a call going on hold as=
> it's routing to an ACD group, according to RFC 6337 section 5.3 "= the use
> of sendonly/recvonly is not limited to hold".
>
> In the following discussion on this subject involving the authors of R= FC
> 3261 there is a clear indication that a RE-INVITE with-out an SDP shou= ld
> not modify 'a=3Dsendonly', unfortunately this isn't enough to support = our
> argument and our service providers protocol lead have determined that =
> the 3rd party is acting correctly and have asked for more evidence. > h= ttp://marc.info/?t=3D98738614300001&r=3D1&w=3D2
>
> We have also pointed out that RFC 3264 section 8 states that the offer=
> MAY be identical to the last SDP provided but are promptly referred ba= ck
> to "brand new call" in RFC 3261 section 14.2.
>
>     RFC 3264
>
>     8 Modifying the Session
>     At any point during the session, either partic= ipant MAY issue a new
>     offer to modify characteristics of the session= .  It is fundamental to
>     the operation of the offer/answer model that t= he exact same
>     offer/answer procedure defined above is used f= or modifying parameters
>     of an existing session.
>
>     The offer MAY be identical to the last SDP pro= vided to the other
>     party (which may have been provided in an offe= r or an answer), or it
>     MAY be different.  We refer to the last S= DP provided as the "previous
>     SDP".  If the offer is the same, the= answer MAY be the same as the
>     previous SDP from the answerer, or it MAY be d= ifferent.  If the
>     offered SDP is different from the previous SDP= , some constraints are
>     placed on its construction, discussed below. >
>     Source: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3264#section-8
>
>
> I'm struggling to find anything more in RFC which can support our
> argument, is it possible to update RFC 3261 14.2 to be more specific i= n
> the terminology for "brand new call" or is this answered els= ewhere?
>
> Hope someone here can help.
>
> Regards,
> Shaun
>
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www= .ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>

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Sat, 5 Sep 2020 16:50:11 -0400 To: Shaun Stokes Cc: "dispatch@ietf.org" References: From: Paul Kyzivat Message-ID: <63a56fe8-84a8-cb08-bacf-601475fad4b3@alum.mit.edu> Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2020 16:50:10 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: d3cc7df0-01ee-4441-a05e-08d851dd4966 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DM6PR12MB3033: X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:10000; X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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 X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:18.7.68.33; CTRY:US; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:CAL; SFV:NSPM; H:outgoing-alum.mit.edu; PTR:outgoing-alum.mit.edu; CAT:NONE; SFS:(396003)(346002)(376002)(136003)(39860400002)(209900001)(46966005)(8936002)(7596003)(70206006)(6916009)(53546011)(4326008)(86362001)(356005)(70586007)(2616005)(2906002)(83380400001)(82310400003)(956004)(31696002)(336012)(31686004)(5660300002)(186003)(478600001)(786003)(82740400003)(47076004)(15974865002)(36906005)(8676002)(316002)(26005)(75432002)(966005)(71440200001)(43740500002)(6606295002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; X-OriginatorOrg: alum.mit.edu X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Sep 2020 20:50:13.2187 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: d3cc7df0-01ee-4441-a05e-08d851dd4966 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalAttributedTenantConnectingIp: TenantId=3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f; Ip=[18.7.68.33]; Helo=[outgoing-alum.mit.edu] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SN1NAM02FT016.eop-nam02.prod.protection.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Anonymous X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR12MB3033 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] RFC 3261 section 14.2 - "brand new call" does not specify whether the SDP should modify media attributes of an existing session containing a=sendonly or a=recvonly X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2020 20:50:18 -0000 On 9/5/20 4:10 PM, Shaun Stokes wrote: > Hi Paul, > > Thanks for your response. > > RFC 6337 section 5.1 refers us back to RFC 3261 in case of a RE-INVITE > and "without regard for what the other party in the call may have > indicated previously" would suggest we should be using 'a=sendrecv' in > our offer. As one of the authors of 6337 I will agree that sendrecv is probably what the UAS should be offering given the circumstances. But it ultimately comes down to what it "wants" to be doing at that time. The folly comes when it offers something less than what *it* wants because it imagines (based on prior o/a) that the answerer wants less than it does. This can get you into "stuck on hold" scenarios or other trouble. Thanks, Paul > I previously tried to touch base with Henning and was directed to the > dispatch mail list. > > I'll post the question to the sip-implementors mail list. > > Thanks, > Shaun > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Paul Kyzivat > *Sent:* 05 September 2020 17:16 > *To:* Shaun Stokes > *Cc:* dispatch@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [dispatch] RFC 3261 section 14.2 - "brand new call" does > not specify whether the SDP should modify media attributes of an > existing session containing a=sendonly or a=recvonly > Shaun, > > Take a look at RFC6337 (especially section 5.1) and see if it helps. > That RFC was written to respond to many questions about O/A that came up > over time. It is not normative, but rather simply clarifies things that > are implicit upon analyzing an assortment of normative RFCs. > > BTW, dispatch isn't really the right place for a question like this. A > better place is . > >         Thanks, >         Paul > > On 9/5/20 5:43 AM, Shaun Stokes wrote: >> Hi, >> >> We are struggling with some of the interpretation used in RFC 3261 >> section 14.2 which is creating a conflict between the software we use >> (FreeSWITCH) and another environment (based on Cisco previously >> Broadsoft equipment) both of which claim to be RFC 3261 compliant and >> claim that the other is not. >> >> The problem occurs when the 3rd party sends an SDP with the media >> attribute 'a=sendonly' on an existing session then follow with a >> RE-INVITE with-out an SDP, they claim that our 2xx offer in response >> should contain an SDP with-out 'a=sendonly' (or replace with >> 'a=sendrecv') based on the interpretation of a "brand new call" used >> below. Anthony Minessale II (FreeSWITCH lead) claims that "brand new >> call" is only intended to refer to codecs (not all media attributes) and >> that the 3rd party (Broadsoft) invented this concept on their own. >> >>     RFC 3261 >> >>     14.2 UAS Behavior >>     A UAS providing an offer in a 2xx (because the INVITE did not contain >>     an offer) SHOULD construct the offer as if the UAS were making a >>     brand new call, subject to the constraints of sending an offer that >>     updates an existing session, as described in [13] in the case of SDP. >>     Specifically, this means that it SHOULD include as many media formats >>     and media types that the UA is willing to support.  The UAS MUST >>     ensure that the session description overlaps with its previous >>     session description in media formats, transports, or other parameters >>     that require support from the peer.  This is to avoid the need for >>     the peer to reject the session description.  If, however, it is >>     unacceptable to the UAC, the UAC SHOULD generate an answer with a >>     valid session description, and then send a BYE to terminate the >>     session. >> >>     Source: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3261#section-14.2 >> >> >> The 3rd party have also stated that this isn't a call going on hold as >> it's routing to an ACD group, according to RFC 6337 section 5.3 "the use >> of sendonly/recvonly is not limited to hold". >> >> In the following discussion on this subject involving the authors of RFC >> 3261 there is a clear indication that a RE-INVITE with-out an SDP should >> not modify 'a=sendonly', unfortunately this isn't enough to support our >> argument and our service providers protocol lead have determined that >> the 3rd party is acting correctly and have asked for more evidence. >> http://marc.info/?t=98738614300001&r=1&w=2 >> >> We have also pointed out that RFC 3264 section 8 states that the offer >> MAY be identical to the last SDP provided but are promptly referred back >> to "brand new call" in RFC 3261 section 14.2. >> >>     RFC 3264 >> >>     8 Modifying the Session >>     At any point during the session, either participant MAY issue a new >>     offer to modify characteristics of the session.  It is fundamental to >>     the operation of the offer/answer model that the exact same >>     offer/answer procedure defined above is used for modifying parameters >>     of an existing session. >> >>     The offer MAY be identical to the last SDP provided to the other >>     party (which may have been provided in an offer or an answer), or it >>     MAY be different.  We refer to the last SDP provided as the "previous >>     SDP".  If the offer is the same, the answer MAY be the same as the >>     previous SDP from the answerer, or it MAY be different.  If the >>     offered SDP is different from the previous SDP, some constraints are >>     placed on its construction, discussed below. >> >>     Source: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3264#section-8 >> >> >> I'm struggling to find anything more in RFC which can support our >> argument, is it possible to update RFC 3261 14.2 to be more specific in >> the terminology for "brand new call" or is this answered elsewhere? >> >> Hope someone here can help. >> >> Regards, >> Shaun >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dispatch mailing list >> dispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch >> > > > Shaun Stokes - > > T : 0800 0489300 > E : shaun@sysconfig.cloud > W : www.sysconfig.cloud > > SYSCONFIG is a trading name of ITEC Support LTD which is a limited > company registered in England and Wales. 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From nobody Mon Sep 7 09:42:26 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietf.org Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CCC93A0814; Mon, 7 Sep 2020 09:42:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Magnus Westerlund via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: sframe-chairs@ietf.org, sframe@ietf.org, dispatch@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.15.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Magnus Westerlund Message-ID: <159949693494.2875.16993532753477402380@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2020 09:42:15 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [dispatch] Magnus Westerlund's Block on charter-ietf-sframe-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2020 16:42:16 -0000 Magnus Westerlund has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-sframe-00-00: Block When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-sframe/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- BLOCK: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I know we have had discussion touching on this before. But post vacation and looking on this charter again I think we need to have some additional discussion of the goals and how the charter describes them in relation to encoder sub-streams and identification of what is encapsulated. In regards to the below: This working group will not specify the signaling required to configure SFrame encryption. In particular, considerations related to SIP or SDP are out of scope. This is because SFrame is intended to be applied as an additional layer on top of the base levels of protection that these protocols provide. This working group will, however, define how SFrame interacts with RTP (e.g., with regard to packetization, depacketization, and recovery algorithms) to ensure that it can be used in environments such as WebRTC. I think there exist a conflict in the above paragraph in relation to stated goals of the work. With the following earlier sentence: " It may also be desirable to encrypt units of intermediate size (e.g., H.264 NALUs or AV1 OBUs) to allow partial frames to be usable." in mind creating an RTP payload format that is capable of carrying SFRAMEs that contains these units will require some interaction with the signalling. Even without these sub-stream SFRAMEs there exist a description capability that needs to exist in an RTP payload format for the end-consumer to correctly be able to route the protected data after decapsulation and that the end-point having that capability. If the goal here when it comes to RTP is simply to be able to treat SFRAME as CODEC in WebRTC and thus use WebRTC InsertableStreams as a receiver of the decrypted media ADUs. Require the use of the WebRTC application to have a proprietary signalling to know what this ADU is and then route it to a media decoder? I can see that working in the WebRTC only context. However, I would prefer if some thought was spent on at least having a model for what information may be needed to be able to handle the media streams. Considering RFC 7656 (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7656/) and the work that was needed for us to up-level how RTP worked and even discuss this so that we understood each other. I think SFRAME needs to discuss how it is going to handle identification of the data encapsulated by SFRAMEs for media. A single media source can be encoded in multiple formats. Each format may produce one or more sub-streams of encoding for scalability or robustness and this needs to conveyed. So looking at the above challenges in the context of SFRAME over RTP. So a possibility here is to say that the SSRC represents either just a media source. The RTP payload format provides only fragmentation of the SFRAME across multiple RTP packets and the RTP timestamp can be used to indicate its belonging in the timeline of the encoding. That puts a lot of the identification on the SFRAME layer, but its minimizes the signalling interactions related to RTP. However it creates limitation about what the SFU can do, especially when it comes to repair. Switching can be done based on Frame-marker extension header. However, layer related loss detection becomes impossible without additional information, or use of multiple SSRCs. Thus, I think the charter as currently written are uncertain if it can be executed on with stated goals. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- * Information to form a unique nonce within the scope of the key Is this really "Information to form a" the best formulation. I am uncertain if the goal is to have a specification for how to generate unique Nonce values within the context of a particular key, or if it is related to which information sources that should be used when creating a nonce? From nobody Mon Sep 7 16:40:10 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A5E63A0F96 for ; Mon, 7 Sep 2020 16:40:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.045 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.045 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.948, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aZ_uFyCvd0Mz for ; Mon, 7 Sep 2020 16:40:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x432.google.com (mail-wr1-x432.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::432]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B0E93A0F95 for ; Mon, 7 Sep 2020 16:40:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x432.google.com with SMTP id z4so17208616wrr.4 for ; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 16:40:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language; bh=cyfNi6cXJstFyXzRVV6neh7PjUp0Oq8epS4q/S2JAuo=; b=AmFGyt03A80YoQv6P6DRFfzlwKTc6Z1NC+eo2dGnNsVTkrQ8Gue0QXuhVM11YZ3I5R FB0zI68+jiqBy3MVDVsQ0Njyf0nXM0BinPDc+tKWoYgG1ZjYtWzjMxtXZzw7lTwjdgtW yWMIwVkuWXpqtny3dNwrXL5w+N7e7s+JKH8I8j1K2UuYYG1QmzmOfavQzvnfU0PZQ/4L oVfQeWdae9Gcj9yqvjKtNg4M6KdMm/YVy90YyVbvJCrTteAJfvzSIti4vE+PKQGK1FvP AWjV6eAtXpQrLPw3FToPYCtheMDUMUI0Wp/TCSTzbeczliEqiEOUJLJkq4QVX74O/8Ik PUQg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=cyfNi6cXJstFyXzRVV6neh7PjUp0Oq8epS4q/S2JAuo=; b=bDDEMyKZFlMnmX42IQ8YBY6AuLz03FRvijMEZ8rDUzOzTuNIH86HCWKyDvQmexq+S9 gaHh2SbDZ9hXlNgZ/18tsCfTRw1SUNUJtd3oI972UWlnkPXNvC35gOq6lRnFa61YmmZ2 iwOsurXDBoG9d/Tu7nwNu2/tjEMBDJ+igwmT98qd05OEyY/Mf9ye5wZVwR+2ySS3x8qA a3XZ0bNKvwxU4gj3IaTKDDhDCuOvWoDO+D8EyZMzC8c2kqlMtMYbJyiHC5IM4EIfOuqw 8T08cK91Y7tCvRniwWmwjZAxbhlKsPuG+SIROItvvay71PBMnmQh3oxJskT8ES6K5PF0 MeEA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533dJ5x7X+k0ZSSdRHj8kqLeYZI2zq6jshv6hO6wd8rfpJs0ROe5 Q8NQ+m6TC4ZrFbTICHewddLuJDvOt8LKgg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwPlwFzZj/QZiAHkTayGobXhET++C3pp2ZQkYGiC6n8Z5zkoPwZr3S7Qub1pM30/9jlFoTgng== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:4388:: with SMTP id i8mr23755456wrq.365.1599522005560; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 16:40:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.11] (79.108.125.160.dyn.user.ono.com. [79.108.125.160]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id g186sm10815274wmg.25.2020.09.07.16.40.05 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 07 Sep 2020 16:40:05 -0700 (PDT) To: dispatch@ietf.org References: <159949693494.2875.16993532753477402380@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Sergio Garcia Murillo Message-ID: <6dd99882-b849-c679-6321-9a221c761530@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 01:40:06 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <159949693494.2875.16993532753477402380@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------A51E739DF6779B501C74D4FE" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] Magnus Westerlund's Block on charter-ietf-sframe-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2020 23:40:09 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------A51E739DF6779B501C74D4FE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 07/09/2020 18:42, Magnus Westerlund via Datatracker wrote: > However, I would > prefer if some thought was spent on at least having a model for what > information may be needed to be able to handle the media streams. Considering > RFC 7656 (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7656/) and the work that was > needed for us to up-level how RTP worked and even discuss this so that we > understood each other. I think SFRAME needs to discuss how it is going to > handle identification of the data encapsulated by SFRAMEs for media. A single > media source can be encoded in multiple formats. Each format may produce one or > more sub-streams of encoding for scalability or robustness and this needs to > conveyed. SFRAME content should be treated just as an opaque payload and when used within RTP, there should no additional identification inside the SFRAME payload itself (except the ones strictly needed for encrypting/decrypting). Any further identification or metadata required must be performed at RTP level: This working group will, however, define how SFrame interacts with RTP (e.g., with regard to packetization, depacketization, and recovery algorithms) to ensure that it can be used in environments such as WebRTC. What I think it is missing in the charter is define what will happen if we find that there is any piece missing in RTP to be able to use SFRAME with it. Should we produce them within this group or just write the requirements and liaise with the appropriate ietf group so they are completed there? > So looking at the above challenges in the context of SFRAME over RTP. So a > possibility here is to say that the SSRC represents either just a media source. In no way SFRAME should be required to have knowledge about SSRCS. > The RTP payload format provides only fragmentation of the SFRAME across > multiple RTP packets and the RTP timestamp can be used to indicate its > belonging in the timeline of the encoding. That puts a lot of the > identification on the SFRAME layer, but its minimizes the signalling > interactions related to RTP. However it creates limitation about what the SFU > can do, especially when it comes to repair. Switching can be done based on > Frame-marker extension header. However, layer related loss detection becomes > impossible without additional information, or use of multiple SSRCs. There are several ways of performing that without imposing any limitations on the SFU. Some of which would require extra specification work, but I would not like to jump directly into the technical proposals while still discussing about the charter. Best regards Sergio --------------A51E739DF6779B501C74D4FE Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 07/09/2020 18:42, Magnus Westerlund via Datatracker wrote:

However, I would
prefer if some thought was spent on at least having a model for what
information may be needed to be able to handle the media streams. Considering
RFC 7656 (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7656/) and the work that was
needed for us to up-level how RTP worked and even discuss this so that we
understood each other. I think SFRAME needs to discuss how it is going to
handle identification of the data encapsulated by SFRAMEs for media. A single
media source can be encoded in multiple formats. Each format may produce one or
more sub-streams of encoding for scalability or robustness and this needs to
conveyed.


SFRAME content should be treated just as an opaque payload and when used within RTP, there should no additional identification inside the SFRAME payload itself (except the ones strictly needed for encrypting/decrypting).

Any further identification or metadata required must be performed at RTP level:

This working group will, however, define how SFrame interacts with RTP (e.g., with
regard to packetization, depacketization, and recovery algorithms) to ensure
that it can be used in environments such as WebRTC.

What I think it is missing in the charter is define what will happen if we find that there is any piece missing in RTP to be able to use SFRAME with it. Should we produce them within this group or just write the requirements and liaise with the appropriate ietf group so they are completed there?

So looking at the above challenges in the context of SFRAME over RTP. So a
possibility here is to say that the SSRC represents either just a media source.

In no way SFRAME should be required to have knowledge about SSRCS. 

The RTP payload format provides only fragmentation of the SFRAME across
multiple RTP packets and the RTP timestamp can be used to indicate its
belonging in the timeline of the encoding. That puts a lot of the
identification on the SFRAME layer, but its minimizes the signalling
interactions related to RTP. However it creates limitation about what the SFU
can do, especially when it comes to repair. Switching can be done based on
Frame-marker extension header. However, layer related loss detection becomes
impossible without additional information, or use of multiple SSRCs.

There are several ways of performing that without imposing any limitations on the SFU. Some of which would require extra specification work, but I would not like to jump directly into the technical proposals while still discussing about the charter.

Best regards

Sergio


--------------A51E739DF6779B501C74D4FE-- From nobody Tue Sep 8 05:30:39 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C37D53A0C51 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 2020 05:30:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s77NAsVaN-2R for ; Tue, 8 Sep 2020 05:30:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x22c.google.com (mail-lj1-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B863A3A0C4C for ; Tue, 8 Sep 2020 05:30:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x22c.google.com with SMTP id u4so18884058ljd.10 for ; Tue, 08 Sep 2020 05:30:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=4ubK8IBfxx9kAg+d9afEVP9xYmjZC/ASy9rA6V+s1G4=; b=EMXLH1x1wdPDImA1c08HQ1oRt/MtzgvBrHMy3oKdQEI/X6Nxzd1tH+oS0OJNKFdhep tKBCwC0y3cct8oDZQ2+hPW9yaGto6YwBAtf5ktmC60hD1ZjgRfC+LiGZQ6UTwd117Yea lnARGm2S6nilGq58XhVrEilwT4yEMtNJVlQhLkSeIc0MlOh9Ou61HGEk/mEPQjbEzSZ/ 6wH3IukMn2qVBsQjYZiDVZkzxODcKNP3MJzzPc1XIyYH0FCpgf2ez390PFgYUN9XqNs0 l2FdHOhIuxcYglBSSsEABOK3mp2A9ETFIv5awsNmGnyW228029VnQjSAfm6XxJfezTWI iCqA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=4ubK8IBfxx9kAg+d9afEVP9xYmjZC/ASy9rA6V+s1G4=; b=jOe11Do5HFk9ApxKZYQVjjOJ7Ws7WhX4QtrybIlzeHPely82A8dWNG/l9obCD8uJ1v LXyGMgIULon9sk7W6Xt+6k/x2Np7J/5REe6LdK1ba3Sbgt6ygv7rEOHfC1rZhTZ6xDRP TmzlxeDTYBPbAvzx9p2AJXG33P3HcGtvtoXGJcxCeZ1E01mIcSWSWMWrxsoGXoquwn6w Byy7r1KjKC5lC0CJf6gzlOzgso9u8o1kY9hXePrZoTqNAgSPWYEord8p5SXVutmBg3fX 5yr6X6LCiOrq9jdNF11pz/BYqJTC6GRpoOH3/ZWM2Wl0VuYn7BLWNYXySZbehVmF+YO5 cD/g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532P2+wUaxTtw6q9LCxuO+sX1HpROKYQ0ZZX6cxdqfpodHjPqxXM T1QyeJvNve7cMLbKPlKwzqmgjbkebq23JU2V/5JqPJ91tx3z7A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzWmbUQDLveKUGePVrOPPKM/kQgx3v+sL5ZehZHQXNjXBC96iMjy9WeMFb4Pgk5pO0LOl9yR/6qUmXgO7jLJX0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:1032:: with SMTP id w18mr12990351ljm.238.1599568233393; Tue, 08 Sep 2020 05:30:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Bernard Aboba Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 05:30:24 -0700 Message-ID: To: DISPATCH list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005872ad05aecc8043" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] Magnus Westerlund's Block on charter-ietf-sframe-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 12:30:38 -0000 --0000000000005872ad05aecc8043 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Sergio said: "SFRAME content should be treated just as an opaque payload and when used within RTP, there should no additional identification inside the SFRAME payload itself (except the ones strictly needed for encrypting/decrypting)." [BA] But the SFRAME content (RTCEncodedVideoFrame.data) isn't treated as opaque today, correct? I am thinking of the first three octets of data, which cannot be encrypted. Isn't that expected to contain the VP8 Payload Header? "What I think it is missing in the charter is define what will happen if we find that there is any piece missing in RTP to be able to use SFRAME with it. Should we produce them within this group or just write the requirements and liaise with the appropriate ietf group so they are completed there?" [BA] I think we have a decent idea of what kind of RTP info we are talking about. Basically, this is the information used by the SFU in order to decide whether to forward or drop the packet. The info is inserted before data within each RTP packet (e.g. VP8 payload descriptor and/or frame forwarding RTP header extension), correct? If so, this can be handled by a reference within the SFrame specifications. "In no way SFRAME should be required to have knowledge about SSRCS." [BA] I think you mean that we don't want SSRCs to be used to identify the keys. As we saw in PERC this creates backwards compatibility issues in SFUs with respect to SSRC modification. But some "knowledge" of SSRCs is required in the system. An RTP packetizer needs to fill in the SSRC field in the RTP header, and this info will also be available to the depacketizer. Also, the RTCEncodedVideoFrameMetadata includes both SSRCs and CSRCs (see: https://w3c.github.io/webrtc-insertable-streams/) "There are several ways of performing that without imposing any limitations on the SFU. Some of which would require extra specification work, but I would not like to jump directly into the technical proposals while still discussing about the charter." [BA] I agree that this doesn't seem like a Charter issue. It is more about what information the SFU has available to it (e.g. RTP header, RTP header extensions and possibly a portion of the payload). Based on this information, the SFU needs to be able to decide whether to drop or forward an RTP packet or whether to attempt repair. However, from the SFU's point of view, the repair process operates normally, correct? --0000000000005872ad05aecc8043 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sergio said:=C2=A0

=
"SFRAME content should be treated just as an opaque payload and when u=
sed=20
within RTP, there should no additional identification inside the SFRAME=20
payload itself (except the ones strictly needed for encrypting/decrypting).=
"
[BA] But the SFRAME content (RTCEncodedVideoFrame.dat=
a) isn't treated as opaque today, correct? 
I am thinkin=
g of the first three octets of data, which cannot be encrypted. Isn't t=
hat expected to contain the VP8 Payload Header?
"What I=
 think it is missing in the charter is define what will happen if=20
we find that there is any piece missing in RTP to be able to use SFRAME=20
with it. Should we produce them within this group or just write the=20
requirements and liaise with the appropriate ietf group so they are=20
completed there?"
[BA] I think we have a decent idea of=
 what kind of RTP info we are talking about.  Basically, this is the inform=
ation used by the SFU in order to decide whether to forward or drop the pac=
ket.  The info is inserted before data within each RTP packet (e.g. VP8 pay=
load descriptor and/or frame forwarding RTP header extension), correct? 
If so, this can=
 be handled by a reference within the SFrame specifications.
"In no way SFRAME should be required to have knowledge about SS=
RCS."
[BA] I think you mean that we don't want SSRC=
s to be used to identify the keys. As we saw in PERC this creates backwards=
 compatibility issues in SFUs with respect to SSRC modification. But some &=
quot;knowledge" of SSRCs is required in the system. 
=
An RTP packetizer needs to fill in the SSRC field in the RTP header, and th=
is info will also be available to the depacketizer. Also, the RTCEncodedVid=
eoFrameMetadata includes both SSRCs and CSRCs (see: https://w3c.github.io/webrtc-insertab=
le-streams/)
"There are several ways of performing =
that without imposing any=20
limitations on the SFU. Some of which would require extra specification=20
work, but I would not like to jump directly into the technical proposals=20
while still discussing about the charter."

[BA] I agree that this doesn't seem like a Charter issue. It is more ab=
out what information the SFU has available to it (e.g. RTP header, RTP head=
er extensions and possibly a portion of the payload). Based on this informa=
tion, the SFU needs to be able to decide whether to drop or forward an RTP =
packet or whether to attempt repair. However, from the SFU's point of v=
iew, the repair process operates normally, correct?=20
--0000000000005872ad05aecc8043-- From nobody Tue Sep 8 08:50:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 909613A0E16; Tue, 8 Sep 2020 08:50:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D74C3A0E06; Tue, 8 Sep 2020 08:50:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.796 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.796 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bzc4Ccsz5_VE; Tue, 8 Sep 2020 08:50:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E125E3A0E01; Tue, 8 Sep 2020 08:50:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxusgaltgw06.schlund.de ([10.72.72.52]) by mrelay.perfora.net (mreueus004 [74.208.5.2]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1M2Ohe-1kGDqZ3sUA-003xq8; Tue, 08 Sep 2020 17:49:53 +0200 Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 11:49:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Timothy Mcsweeney To: Ben Campbell Cc: draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org, Barry Leiba , Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <1541395114.285974.1599580192738@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <80653043.461504.1599148969376@email.ionos.com> References: <159893058662.23844.17177953972396775177@ietfa.amsl.com> <1066090379.166058.1598958286518@email.ionos.com> <674529702.175704.1598975928192@email.ionos.com> <808181205.131590.1599043971572@email.ionos.com> <916398430.283512.1599128074641@email.ionos.com> <9C86A277-47EA-47D8-8B09-1236BFDD1530@nostrum.com> <80653043.461504.1599148969376@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.3-Rev19 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:rt6lf7fd5/BBPR1qex3CMARYzhkYf+TQt9jP6OvQ2BZKHi0XtRJ WSoLv83xilaM0PF5R0i1b7+YgKl8OaBq9nN76d8T0BpgsmaK8m5S6S4SeIoH1ZI0zhQ281J NQVuOiSaHa09XBzkKqJHP2IXQsIGM/EGfAQH5CGjNh5rX4jc2IE6cjQ6WfoEYHX+RI6cG34 Mcv57Q5LWTD2m2IMewqog== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:SskzTEiQ07w=:g0MtrJI8BXQTwsYjYSQejJ XqfxT6UJGvQhQZtDwD7axjdAQ1EAcvNXYGTbslsRfXSdZctOXkMLhqehx1+57PpL6Xq3bJYzn eILu3FBb+Vc36ggtMKaqH3w6mlolCshbnh51krj33uL/xqY3z8A/2zQNGf+k/IbBQTgmwYrM8 hTKZIj4qts2Dl0cgfNIbXvaCpEO95tJ7zkQ1JnEjrF2RjtPFPfwFBmERwyh+mI8CO4T7SvFX0 l5XH7VvsT9jPSCPpRQZ0HrO7P5o7gHyABnLYvpkpfPLdo3fbJhEmBF3l0xxoiTmju+69RSm/k IHFFMHoojY4EXxrFZxw2QKsxxFRAu/fzBGK8AJ3aC3x8Pw8hu3aanLUgIGge84y0cJ4NaLJSF MYPoNy8iMmY7fcNI2YWCLopfUu8rux7wUXQFwDkxm971JFZVktIADGWGg/FM2q4yjPZeOTEep CaPujQdgd+rSbm7JbEXbcAUNmdxSMmDLLYqstdGGmPvvPBijSTLlU0sJExJvfXurPvwt4ASWi FAVQavpMtgo5UdrHpAPbIFp0wOMWiAGst1JRkcXv+BzbJ+gdFX4NibOnd0EvvHMoxRMOexuQ0 uRwQ2VPSSSzfTIwse1gVzrFuDSU78thmyTYkeXgIVhMO3YYxDg2+rFMF15BXvGN+akC5JttBY bzWpQp62k74UPnC7QzuSKtWKwyR0aUwVbjLRTrTXDhQVpenn9wdnHemCErvs1qwlkocSSTZBk kbuwnZoD+dv5ZoC64KUxjzwk8LLe4asMb7nMOGMSSLERhP9hLc4LylKc0fRTrRcYdkELea59f uHGz3zUTxEQBthDHzX9JAVsNc1pg5VLANr7rfRslJStZidxpU0Hcc93Vz3VQl1n4Q5Q3h5E Resent-From: Resent-To: ted.ietf@gmail.com, barryleiba@gmail.com, superuser@gmail.com, barryleiba@computer.org, spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com, dispatch@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20200908155007.909613A0E16@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 08:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Last-Call] Genart last call review of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 15:50:08 -0000
How about:
 
2. Updated Requirements
This document removes and replaces the normative requirements from sections 3.1.1
and section 3.1.2 of RFC3405 with:
 
The registration of a NAPTR record for a URI scheme MUST NOT precede registration of that scheme.  IANA will review the request against for
 
1. correctness and technical soundness (eg. valid databases, service parameters etc.) and
2. consistency with the published URI resolution application specification, and
3. to ensure that the NAPTR record for a DNS-based URI does not delegate resolution of the URI to a party other than the holder of the DNS name. This last rule is to insure that a given URI's resolution hint doesn't hijack (inadvertently or otherwise) network traffic for a given domain.

3. IANA Considerations

This update does not change the IANA submission procedure in Section 5 of RFC 3405.
 
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Tue, 8 Sep 2020 10:37:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bens-macbook.lan (mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 088HbWHf069410 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 8 Sep 2020 12:37:34 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1599586655; bh=p88MxJtpq3nwMuw6d4vjR2hei5lidAr3lGeBw7iTmQI=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=PfHREi9xUxcpjy8NqAfRgz230BXNt4YNHLO6HVjvLHstXzo95YuNX9ZufqqzRFwi+ mohNkCtwXgWe9z7aV9mIm1+M+a+hZcIrLTTa2fvS+KtZKfeV72fVU1bxW2hNV/aGco HA7C6s8a5otjvWSTTrejxWMekuNh12PbcMTGUXfw= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged) claimed to be bens-macbook.lan From: Ben Campbell Message-Id: <93E4AA86-9CF4-4635-9E95-2A40C62E026B@nostrum.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_53C5B5EF-C9A3-4024-A1D2-97FBC65DFDB7" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 12:37:25 -0500 In-Reply-To: <78D63CAD-1598-4973-9393-368E708BD354@akamai.com> Cc: Timothy Mcsweeney , "draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietf.org" , "last-call@ietf.org" , Barry Leiba , Brian E Carpenter To: "Salz, Rich" References: <159893058662.23844.17177953972396775177@ietfa.amsl.com> <1066090379.166058.1598958286518@email.ionos.com> <674529702.175704.1598975928192@email.ionos.com> <808181205.131590.1599043971572@email.ionos.com> <916398430.283512.1599128074641@email.ionos.com> <9C86A277-47EA-47D8-8B09-1236BFDD1530@nostrum.com> <80653043.461504.1599148969376@email.ionos.com> <1541395114.285974.1599580192738@email.ionos.com> <78D63CAD-1598-4973-9393-368E708BD354@akamai.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Resent-From: Resent-To: ted.ietf@gmail.com, superuser@gmail.com, barryleiba@computer.org, barryleiba@gmail.com, spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com, dispatch@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20200908173751.51E8B3A0B8B@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 10:37:51 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Last-Call] Genart last call review of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 17:37:51 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_53C5B5EF-C9A3-4024-A1D2-97FBC65DFDB7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Sep 8, 2020, at 12:15 PM, Salz, Rich wrote: >=20 > Does anyone else feel this way? I am opposed. > =20 > It *appears* that this change removes the requirement for proper = URI=E2=80=99s, or at least moves the responsibility to IANA, which is = hired staff. I continue to oppose any approach that removes the requirement that the = URI scheme itself go through an expert review. It seems appropriate that = such review happen at the time of scheme registration (as opposed to the = time of requesting inclusion in uri.arpa). The requirement for = permanent registration of the scheme gives us that. There may be other ways to achieve the same thing, but they would almost = certain require more complicated specification changes than simply = saying =E2=80=9CThe scheme MUST be permanently registered=E2=80=9D. Ben.= --Apple-Mail=_53C5B5EF-C9A3-4024-A1D2-97FBC65DFDB7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On Sep 8, 2020, at 12:15 PM, Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com> = wrote:

Does anyone else feel this = way? I am opposed.
 
It *appears* that this change removes the requirement for = proper URI=E2=80=99s, or at least moves the responsibility to IANA, = which is hired staff.

I continue to oppose any approach that = removes the requirement that the URI scheme itself go through an expert = review. It seems appropriate that such review happen at the time of = scheme registration (as opposed to the time of requesting inclusion in = uri.arpa).  The requirement for permanent registration of the = scheme gives us that.

There may be other ways to achieve the same thing, but they = would almost certain require more complicated specification changes than = simply saying =E2=80=9CThe scheme MUST be permanently = registered=E2=80=9D.

Ben.
= --Apple-Mail=_53C5B5EF-C9A3-4024-A1D2-97FBC65DFDB7-- From nobody Tue Sep 8 13:03:52 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 399613A10C0 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 2020 13:03:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.045 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.045 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.948, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4qelWpEaFNp2 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 2020 13:03:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm1-x32f.google.com (mail-wm1-x32f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 251B93A1030 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 2020 13:03:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x32f.google.com with SMTP id z9so202416wmk.1 for ; Tue, 08 Sep 2020 13:03:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language; bh=ShlOZIustcwG4bjzBLCtQrqbfglob+NUyju2TSY3b5s=; b=CFXdAZvoO7A7RWXDo2XCgtdnYazjJJOwKL7a+WUC0KdexXE9gZWKNB/z9uDwAMV3eK tuxbuUBAD5x8uXmHfcLH4MbxgwQqiD/KaZ6fHMBewWJ9yJtYCYi+3h6PY3u+4IbzkSx0 cmfyOQXdOlXXQhxLfAOLkJrAn9O3CHVDKjgDD9j9ndNS0mXWc678rox7g2PXwRd19faB /VCfRoBMbJ8BXarm5GDIQeAtRrwociow64MZe0WDM8KnHRdWKTXo43NfaGD/o0WNeCnh Z+A2cVnWec2NpQ+J6oFaqxohMKbbyNBgJxlsmiZpeG1RSe4HrRMVZlYa3mlifdMs2DPJ lIcg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=ShlOZIustcwG4bjzBLCtQrqbfglob+NUyju2TSY3b5s=; b=W0FI8/AKwxIZXI4Kd85h4/BPcIfJugHA+n5prOXI2ZXVv62wTggpacbT/V/caEBEd6 lTM2lIGJyCzsC3cGgvy6g+SYAjiguuNItjNGTA2oHzf9OUmjkf+tybLpSMzAyhj1O32g EE7bbzg/I4A9R7rQSMs72Qxf1wtxLOxSnUA+mtqtPbOhMmPZibIr2ZgftTCvDIsacHnb KuTFk2xGzdkySeZrda6kdgAzKKEDnN77OCkzznZRYkgX4yphAGLUIZeJs+GVftZqkKhw p2g+AwLlvCn0bZHLE6chF54FsMdxpcHqM7RxZFGV9s4Wz57GGmFqND1wLahViRlVxFZR fMXA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531yNa/Gb0Nd4aKUXcLJ+E4maHosRTEROLPrlnOH8IfDCTe5UTTk Qb/hsmFW5+fAaK07rPuhjePBc1B6hOFHAQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw1MF5KkssL7Lv+BuYvJo3L8OhnKLrXlSrgVQqfCUoIQeXmvZVxNwA/67ovu4S3kLzWDS40vw== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:f018:: with SMTP id a24mr87866wmb.7.1599595424281; Tue, 08 Sep 2020 13:03:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.11] (79.108.125.160.dyn.user.ono.com. [79.108.125.160]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id w7sm661460wrm.92.2020.09.08.13.03.43 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 08 Sep 2020 13:03:43 -0700 (PDT) To: dispatch@ietf.org References: From: Sergio Garcia Murillo Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 22:03:44 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------21D72111064283A05FB03C7C" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] Magnus Westerlund's Block on charter-ietf-sframe-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 20:03:48 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------21D72111064283A05FB03C7C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 08/09/2020 14:30, Bernard Aboba wrote: > Sergio said: > > "SFRAME content should be treated just as an opaque payload and when used > within RTP, there should no additional identification inside the SFRAME > payload itself (except the ones strictly needed for encrypting/decrypting)." > [BA] But the SFRAME content (RTCEncodedVideoFrame.data) isn't treated as opaque today, correct? > I am thinking of the first three octets of data, which cannot be encrypted. Isn't that expected to contain the VP8 Payload Header? We need to skip the first bytes of the VP8 frame because we a limitation on the chrome implementation of the insertable streams and due to the fact that we are using the vp8 packetizer and not a codec-agnostic packetization but the vp8 rtp one. Ideally, when using a codec agnostic packetizer, the whole frame payload should be feed into sframe and the result be treated as a black box. > "What I think it is missing in the charter is define what will happen if > we find that there is any piece missing in RTP to be able to use SFRAME > with it. Should we produce them within this group or just write the > requirements and liaise with the appropriate ietf group so they are > completed there?" > [BA] I think we have a decent idea of what kind of RTP info we are talking about. Basically, this is the information used by the SFU in order to decide whether to forward or drop the packet. The info is inserted before data within each RTP packet (e.g. VP8 payload descriptor and/or frame forwarding RTP header extension), correct? > If so, this can be handled by a reference within the SFrame specifications. My doubt is if we find that there is no suitable reference available, what should we do? > "In no way SFRAME should be required to have knowledge about SSRCS." > [BA] I think you mean that we don't want SSRCs to be used to identify the keys. As we saw in PERC this creates backwards compatibility issues in SFUs with respect to SSRC modification. But some "knowledge" of SSRCs is required in the system. > An RTP packetizer needs to fill in the SSRC field in the RTP header, and this info will also be available to the depacketizer. Also, the RTCEncodedVideoFrameMetadata includes both SSRCs and CSRCs (see:https://w3c.github.io/webrtc-insertable-streams/) Yes, my point is that the SSRCS/rids should not be used as metadata for SFRAME encryption/decryption as we have seen it causes issues with SFU functionality. Obviously the rtp layer would still need to handle it and we may need how to map simulcast/svc behavior with SFRAME operations (as it is already captioned on current draft). > "There are several ways of performing that without imposing any > limitations on the SFU. Some of which would require extra specification > work, but I would not like to jump directly into the technical proposals > while still discussing about the charter." > > [BA] I agree that this doesn't seem like a Charter issue. It is more about what information the SFU has available to it (e.g. RTP header, RTP header extensions and possibly a portion of the payload). Based on this information, the SFU needs to be able to decide whether to drop or forward an RTP packet or whether to attempt repair. However, from the SFU's point of view, the repair process operates normally, correct? I agree. Best regards Sergio --------------21D72111064283A05FB03C7C Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 08/09/2020 14:30, Bernard Aboba wrote:
Sergio said:  

"SFRAME content should be treated just as an opaque payload and when used 
within RTP, there should no additional identification inside the SFRAME 
payload itself (except the ones strictly needed for encrypting/decrypting)."
[BA] But the SFRAME content (RTCEncodedVideoFrame.data) isn't treated as opaque today, correct? 
I am thinking of the first three octets of data, which cannot be encrypted. Isn't that expected to contain the VP8 Payload Header?

We need to skip the first bytes of the VP8 frame because we a limitation on the chrome implementation of the insertable streams and due to the fact that we are using the vp8 packetizer and not a codec-agnostic packetization but the vp8 rtp one. Ideally, when using a codec agnostic packetizer, the whole frame payload should be feed into sframe and the result be treated as a black box.


"What I think it is missing in the charter is define what will happen if 
we find that there is any piece missing in RTP to be able to use SFRAME 
with it. Should we produce them within this group or just write the 
requirements and liaise with the appropriate ietf group so they are 
completed there?"
[BA] I think we have a decent idea of what kind of RTP info we are talking about.  Basically, this is the information used by the SFU in order to decide whether to forward or drop the packet.  The info is inserted before data within each RTP packet (e.g. VP8 payload descriptor and/or frame forwarding RTP header extension), correct? 
If so, this can be handled by a reference within the SFrame specifications.

My doubt is if we find that there is no suitable reference available, what should we do?


"In no way SFRAME should be required to have knowledge about SSRCS."
[BA] I think you mean that we don't want SSRCs to be used to identify the keys. As we saw in PERC this creates backwards compatibility issues in SFUs with respect to SSRC modification. But some "knowledge" of SSRCs is required in the system. 
An RTP packetizer needs to fill in the SSRC field in the RTP header, and this info will also be available to the depacketizer. Also, the RTCEncodedVideoFrameMetadata includes both SSRCs and CSRCs (see: https://w3c.github.io/webrtc-insertable-streams/)

Yes, my point is that the SSRCS/rids should not be used as metadata for SFRAME encryption/decryption as we have seen it causes issues with SFU functionality. Obviously the rtp layer would still need to handle it and we may need how to map simulcast/svc behavior with SFRAME operations (as it is already captioned on current draft).


"There are several ways of performing that without imposing any 
limitations on the SFU. Some of which would require extra specification 
work, but I would not like to jump directly into the technical proposals 
while still discussing about the charter."

[BA] I agree that this doesn't seem like a Charter issue. It is more about what information the SFU has available to it (e.g. RTP header, RTP header extensions and possibly a portion of the payload). Based on this information, the SFU needs to be able to decide whether to drop or forward an RTP packet or whether to attempt repair. However, from the SFU's point of view, the repair process operates normally, correct?


I agree.


Best regards

Sergio

--------------21D72111064283A05FB03C7C-- From nobody Tue Sep 8 14:26:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 003453A14B4; Tue, 8 Sep 2020 14:26:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietf.org Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 758823A1157; Tue, 8 Sep 2020 14:26:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Nancy Cam-Winget via Datatracker To: Cc: draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.16.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <159960039336.12619.2048589782212544165@ietfa.amsl.com> Reply-To: Nancy Cam-Winget Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 14:26:33 -0700 Resent-From: Resent-To: ted.ietf@gmail.com, barryleiba@computer.org, barryleiba@gmail.com, superuser@gmail.com, spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com, dispatch@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20200908212634.003453A14B4@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 14:26:33 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: [dispatch] Secdir last call review of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 21:26:34 -0000 Reviewer: Nancy Cam-Winget Review result: Ready SECDIR review of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 Reviewer: Nancy Cam-Winget Review result: Ready I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.  These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security area directors.  Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just like any other last call comments. This is a very short document that updates RFC 3405 to remove its requirement for URI.ARPA to be from the IETF URI Tree. The document seems concise and I did not find any issues. From nobody Tue Sep 8 16:11:31 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA1EC3A08DC for ; Tue, 8 Sep 2020 16:11:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fastmailteam.com header.b=zPpBO4WB; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=VRUMgYyS Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l-ouECtzNfUZ for ; 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Tue, 8 Sep 2020 19:11:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.3.0-259-g88fbbfa-fm-20200903.003-g88fbbfa3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <9d442614-6915-4c5a-9a84-c34687efb5ff@dogfood.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <93E4AA86-9CF4-4635-9E95-2A40C62E026B@nostrum.com> References: <159893058662.23844.17177953972396775177@ietfa.amsl.com> <1066090379.166058.1598958286518@email.ionos.com> <674529702.175704.1598975928192@email.ionos.com> <808181205.131590.1599043971572@email.ionos.com> <916398430.283512.1599128074641@email.ionos.com> <9C86A277-47EA-47D8-8B09-1236BFDD1530@nostrum.com> <80653043.461504.1599148969376@email.ionos.com> <1541395114.285974.1599580192738@email.ionos.com> <78D63CAD-1598-4973-9393-368E708BD354@akamai.com> <93E4AA86-9CF4-4635-9E95-2A40C62E026B@nostrum.com> Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 09:10:58 +1000 From: "Bron Gondwana" To: dispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=49483f1e81c0414f9be633cccc9f74b0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] =?utf-8?q?=5BLast-Call=5D_Genart_last_call_review_of_?= =?utf-8?q?draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03?= X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 23:11:30 -0000 --49483f1e81c0414f9be633cccc9f74b0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Sep 9, 2020, at 03:37, Ben Campbell wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On Sep 8, 2020, at 12:15 PM, Salz, Rich wrote: >>=20 >> Does anyone else feel this way? I am opposed. >> =20 >> It **appears** that this change removes the requirement for proper UR= I=E2=80=99s, or at least moves the responsibility to IANA, which is hire= d staff. >=20 > I continue to oppose any approach that removes the requirement that th= e URI scheme itself go through an expert review. It seems appropriate th= at such review happen at the time of scheme registration (as opposed to = the time of requesting inclusion in uri.arpa). The requirement for perm= anent registration of the scheme gives us that. >=20 > There may be other ways to achieve the same thing, but they would almo= st certain require more complicated specification changes than simply sa= ying =E2=80=9CThe scheme MUST be permanently registered=E2=80=9D. I agree with Rich and Ben here - the IETF takes responsibility for uri.= arpa, and hence has an interest in the quality of what is registered the= re. This means that expert review is appropriate to ensure that everyth= ing that we take responsibility for works well together. We do not have a responsibility to allow arbitrary registration that goe= s against the technical judgement of our designated experts just because= those registrants want it. For these reasons I support the publication of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc= 3405-update-03 with its current wording. Bron. -- Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd brong@fastmailteam.com --49483f1e81c0414f9be633cccc9f74b0 Content-Type: text/html;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Sep 9, 2020, at 03:37, Ben Campbell wrote:


On Sep 8, 2020, at 12:15 PM, Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com> w= rote:

Does anyone else= feel this way? I am opposed.
 
It *appears* that this change removes the requirement for proper URI=E2= =80=99s, or at least moves the responsibility to IANA, which is hired st= aff.

I continue to oppose any approach that removes the requirement tha= t the URI scheme itself go through an expert review. It seems appropriat= e that such review happen at the time of scheme registration (as opposed= to the time of requesting inclusion in uri.arpa).  The requirement= for permanent registration of the scheme gives us that.

There may be other ways to ach= ieve the same thing, but they would almost certain require more complica= ted specification changes than simply saying =E2=80=9CThe scheme MUST be= permanently registered=E2=80=9D.

I agree wi= th Rich and Ben here  - the IETF takes responsibility for uri.arpa,= and hence has an interest in the quality of what is registered there.&n= bsp; This means that expert review is appropriate to ensure that everyth= ing that we take responsibility for works well together.

= We do not have a responsibility to allow arbitrary registration that goe= s against the technical judgement of our designated experts just because= those registrants want it.
<= br>
For these reasons I support t= he publication of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 with its = current wording.

Bron.

--
  Bron= Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd
  brong@fastmailteam= .com

--49483f1e81c0414f9be633cccc9f74b0-- From nobody Wed Sep 9 02:44:51 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 6118B3A11EC; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 02:44:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDD0F3A11A5; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 02:44:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.795 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.795 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0JH1r3W0qMdN; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 02:44:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.197]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2DCD73A0870; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 02:44:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxusgaltgw15.schlund.de ([10.72.72.62]) by mrelay.perfora.net (mreueus002 [74.208.5.2]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0Ln94d-1kjoDQ2TkL-00hLUj; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 11:44:29 +0200 Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 05:44:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Timothy Mcsweeney To: Ben Campbell , "Salz, Rich" Cc: "draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietf.org" , "last-call@ietf.org" , Barry Leiba , Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <903208889.160640.1599644667966@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: <93E4AA86-9CF4-4635-9E95-2A40C62E026B@nostrum.com> References: <159893058662.23844.17177953972396775177@ietfa.amsl.com> <1066090379.166058.1598958286518@email.ionos.com> <674529702.175704.1598975928192@email.ionos.com> <808181205.131590.1599043971572@email.ionos.com> <916398430.283512.1599128074641@email.ionos.com> <9C86A277-47EA-47D8-8B09-1236BFDD1530@nostrum.com> <80653043.461504.1599148969376@email.ionos.com> <1541395114.285974.1599580192738@email.ionos.com> <78D63CAD-1598-4973-9393-368E708BD354@akamai.com> <93E4AA86-9CF4-4635-9E95-2A40C62E026B@nostrum.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.3-Rev19 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:+OfZywGhcEqTRyTxSrxIp23n9+DwJ6EDXYopJ9pJZC2uSpVGY58 58nq7rh86WiwISVsCYl4rtwI8Y8H2TzTh2eGG92/y1Trenb9m1sihGf2v6WZlcyARhVoBZi ncysXDr+BbTGy7zVntz/IWwMxv61q6UKW/x71ER0yZf+WPiObWZW0DBdR+pN4oBdIIr9i9P Zay8XsiHkd69im1H/ePnA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:2Fzc6raHBhE=:l7p8nH9FKoVrj1VTAqkwgw dUsYOV9jRV5jBoNp8cBg8Gz3WaibUwRICx6L+yO+BhdzOQuXe+tTQvY16uq8xJW3ToZCog1d0 qRcE6FkxCZQmOn86F/3lnLtFB2wJcW+CdiIQjjC0ar/GcKrLawy92zT8jXB3otTed2bZEg3LI JSQc6YEHgyFPX/je+TCU/26GHF3ajIm/3jKiYLY+cfN5ivJmNm22oQtdJu3VnigMgJB31TSK4 0H6eC8cokxus/smh+OV9MbNd5ukbpHMtfIdMKa0JdgEH6oCoryjOXUHJkswcPczjRlbtmPGmM vj/wNgm+SFMvHxQglPQ2Es2WxC1P3NozoC1pIpWcr9lJtkT6HypsctUNuUhe8+zzlFn5GeLTb O3i5H5ddAZI6G7yo+6ImBIdWgeB8B6H69hdhx3BirDpDl02uLnfPvPWVkSkiM2PF+rS4VhKZ7 PUQefb67GBUOdZ/40rILhK+9fUpm88q6nYF7HxTtop0jIJ70wmL7zAMakcoWqxdGIr+ESUOLD sCBew1OGKznJWE/CQE/OlTTKowyQrBjtKRtLmSb/4AQOntxVKpVyoXaU4F88XWurqKFshG4Tk tpTPodgy/qgoW2Zb7b3OeGv7BSeBRF4ymE0/A6vABsSDLoo8XWfBghREE0/FDfylYkw+EWXz6 gVm428mri4vDHV6cKiLU2cgA/UA1H67s9lVEqeKAwgQeSUrGywizNIMKrQ8n56P5E3/Cs6RIK O0Gq5V+kvftBuAUYX3c/w8idryOrc+49SCheRy+6vOsx1n/BagksWISM9XbGXwOJ1yQgO6jH9 yvRN/kA4fyFsil2PuXyxCL25emRok6GBYeUn3TV0QtZtzA1BKoF/U0n9BdSZVwMgqVYziIG Resent-From: Resent-To: ted.ietf@gmail.com, superuser@gmail.com, barryleiba@gmail.com, barryleiba@computer.org, spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com, dispatch@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20200909094446.6118B3A11EC@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 02:44:46 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Last-Call] Genart last call review of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 09:44:46 -0000 =20 =20
=20
I'm not sure what was meant by Rich's comment about IANA being hired st= aff but, when it comes to the DDDS,
=20
you really can't get any more expert in an review without them.  T= hey already:
=20
 
=20
1. manage the zone
=20
2. manage the name registration
=20
3. manage the submission procedure
=20
4. manage the list for vetting registrations in the zone
=20
5. have an engineering team to report any technical problems
=20
 
=20
 
=20
 
=20
=20
=20
On 09/08/2020 1:37 PM Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:
=20
 
=20
 
=20
=20

=20
=20
On Sep 8, 2020, at 12:15 PM, Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com> wrote:
=20
=20
= =20
Does anyone else feel this way? I am opposed.
=20
 
=20
It *appears* that this change removes t= he requirement for proper URI=E2=80=99s, or at least moves the responsibili= ty to IANA, which is hired staff.
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
I continue to oppose any approach that removes the requirement that the= URI scheme itself go through an expert review. It seems appropriate that s= uch review happen at the time of scheme registration (as opposed to the tim= e of requesting inclusion in uri.arpa).  The requirement for permanent= registration of the scheme gives us that.
=20
 
=20
There may be other ways to achieve the same thing, but they would almos= t certain require more complicated specification changes than simply saying= =E2=80=9CThe scheme MUST be permanently registered=E2=80=9D.
=20
 
=20
Ben.
-- last-call mailing list last-call@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org= /mailman/listinfo/last-call
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ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MBEOI-1kOFmE0V70-00CjMo; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 17:29:08 +0200 Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 11:29:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Timothy Mcsweeney To: "Salz, Rich" , Ben Campbell Cc: "draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietf.org" , "last-call@ietf.org" , Barry Leiba , Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <1960569540.433567.1599665347597@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: References: <159893058662.23844.17177953972396775177@ietfa.amsl.com> <1066090379.166058.1598958286518@email.ionos.com> <674529702.175704.1598975928192@email.ionos.com> <808181205.131590.1599043971572@email.ionos.com> <916398430.283512.1599128074641@email.ionos.com> <9C86A277-47EA-47D8-8B09-1236BFDD1530@nostrum.com> <80653043.461504.1599148969376@email.ionos.com> <1541395114.285974.1599580192738@email.ionos.com> <78D63CAD-1598-4973-9393-368E708BD354@akamai.com> <93E4AA86-9CF4-4635-9E95-2A40C62E026B@nostrum.com> <903208889.160640.1599644667966@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.3-Rev19 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:I44ttRXBaYp11INFbkmVn4cao3X8PWRLkI3PSkAZasAyAsJQd4A brqtUj+acTUgSB4wHs0uNOpFt0/p8YF0m9Hc2va25QNqdB/bDwsit8vBSzgd8z26ZLTO8hS Nah5UlKSOJ/AODPtZM4C+Ha0VF4b4AXhxIa6PftaO/lidu5hNxLw4hg05SBQq2gVZQkzdDV 4Fy6H/8YJZKBaHUoqNeIQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:vdcyoAKbKMo=:/WBPzNVL1mZErKKxqb7Xep Ji33Aalq4+CL8qp1mdYwXpwaOc/etGdRogY0RcYv6T/TchoHPdJ1dFveKUl6DtZ82nVVMj337 tOFusDWc4RY0udeNcPyDdaBldgCHu42hTv+32EX7OQin/TeK1z1ugBGYFX4N1sqDYZIZnPTvm Qe7CzOWfNtDHJp0y3r8LZItaUAZfmkeWTLigUYXphIJGynMvk2Sb6lC+ebGvfyx2FrInPzJmQ 7DpGsWUb3RAN63wGN+3HrC4Fj7HhQR4GRISsZJsq1xx2Mx7BLpZovadBw1K+9X7kWLMYItzbt i6LbvMlWXfnrB9A6uRvqSJlwxSbYC24rXZocXujM5tlG3H+4ZU9MCPCJiTAHXonga7ABdR5hB JtmY2hmcb7GPAPGl+8G68Cc7kOoIUB2e4z/+Gi3dtVSFyQIWHYMTvac8/16vxVaTUTvQVOtby GNYavvwHdG6DMI25CS8G6YI7eVeEpBaPjQkVN0pjCWqZ37AbmrzI2yHN4dixMgoz9waZPaZsT 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-0000 =20 =20
=20
=20
=20
=20

 

=20

>They are not experts.  They are hired= to do administrative stuff. The things you list do not require technical e= xpertise, but rather >operational expertise.  That=E2=80=99s not to= denigrate ops, of course.

=20

Of course.

=20

 

=20

>I am a member of the TLS designated expert= s, so I know first-hand how expert review works.

=20

I have very limited experience with expert rev= iews, which part of the naptr record worries you most?  Beyond that I'= m not sure what needs a review.

=20

 

=20

>So far you are the only one trying to remo= ve it.

=20
Well, at the moment, there is no designated expert for for uri.arpa = so anything incoming would have to be reviewed by the IESG.  That seem= s like a waste of resources for them to look at some regex.
=20
 
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X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 20:41:37 -0000 Roman Danyliw has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-sframe-00-00: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-sframe/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ** I share Éric Vyncke concerns with the bulleted list of what SFRAME encapsulation will provide. My recommendation would be to reframe this text around what security properties/assurances/services this encapsulation will provide (rather than a functional list). ** If configuring the security services is out of scope, where is it anticipated that this signalling protocol work would occur? From nobody Wed Sep 9 14:17:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietf.org Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A72F3A0EAA; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 14:17:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Erik Kline via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: sframe-chairs@ietf.org, sframe@ietf.org, dispatch@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.16.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Erik Kline Message-ID: <159968627781.11463.12811961039308421789@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 14:17:58 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [dispatch] Erik Kline's No Objection on charter-ietf-sframe-00-00: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 21:17:58 -0000 Erik Kline has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-sframe-00-00: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-sframe/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [[ comments/questions ]] * Agree with "Information to form a unique nonce within the scope of the key" seeming a bit underdefined at the moment. * If conferencing migrates to carriage over QUIC, would that have any impact on/overlap with this work? From nobody Wed Sep 9 16:31:07 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietf.org Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1C213A080C; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 16:31:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: sframe-chairs@ietf.org, sframe@ietf.org, dispatch@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.16.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Benjamin Kaduk Message-ID: <159969426190.10803.15690929161997611598@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 16:31:01 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [dispatch] Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on charter-ietf-sframe-00-00: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 23:31:02 -0000 Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-sframe-00-00: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-sframe/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I support Magnus's and Érics' Blocks. Some additional comments: Real-time conferencing sessions increasingly require end-to-end protections that prevent intermediary servers from decrypting real-time media. The PERC WG developed a “double encryption†scheme for end-to-end encryption that was deeply tied to SRTP as its underlying transport. This entanglement has prevented widespread deployment. I thought we were going to tweak this text (noting that RFC RFC 8723 is only a handful of months old). It might also be worth a note about the general expected shape of the key hierarchy (e.g., one key per sender vs. full mesh). * Selection among multiple encryption keys in use during a real-time session * Information to form a unique nonce within the scope of the key * Authenticated encryption using the selected key and nonce I assume that this means "assembling preexisting crypto building blocks", not "define new crypto". The transport-independence of this encapsulation means that it can be applied at a higher level than individual RTP payloads. For example, it may be desirable to encrypt whole frames that span multiple packets in order to amortize the overhead from framing and authentication tags. It may also be desirable to encrypt units of intermediate size (e.g., H.264 NALUs or AV1 OBUs) to allow partial frames to be usable. The working group will choose what levels of granularity are available and to what degree this can be configured. (Available as input to the WG of available from its output?) It is anticipated that several use cases of SFrame will involve its use with keys derived from the MLS group key exchange protocol. The working group will define a mechanism for doing SFrame encryption using keys from MLS, including, for example, the derivation of SFrame keys per MLS epoch and per sender. Will other sources of key material be considered? From nobody Wed Sep 9 17:59:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 7155B3A09F4; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 17:59:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0D883A0A63; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 17:58:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.047 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.047 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.948, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JwfAIwPddQFw; 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Wed, 09 Sep 2020 17:58:54 -0700 (PDT) To: "Salz, Rich" , Timothy Mcsweeney , Ben Campbell Cc: "draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update.all@ietf.org" , "last-call@ietf.org" , Barry Leiba References: <159893058662.23844.17177953972396775177@ietfa.amsl.com> <1066090379.166058.1598958286518@email.ionos.com> <674529702.175704.1598975928192@email.ionos.com> <808181205.131590.1599043971572@email.ionos.com> <916398430.283512.1599128074641@email.ionos.com> <9C86A277-47EA-47D8-8B09-1236BFDD1530@nostrum.com> <80653043.461504.1599148969376@email.ionos.com> <1541395114.285974.1599580192738@email.ionos.com> <78D63CAD-1598-4973-9393-368E708BD354@akamai.com> <93E4AA86-9CF4-4635-9E95-2A40C62E026B@nostrum.com> <903208889.160640.1599644667966@email.ionos.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <70df13c2-3adf-e91e-eec5-e9c517631491@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 12:58:49 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-From: Resent-To: ted.ietf@gmail.com, barryleiba@gmail.com, superuser@gmail.com, barryleiba@computer.org, spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com, dispatch@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20200910005905.7155B3A09F4@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 17:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Last-Call] Genart last call review of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 00:59:12 -0000 On 10-Sep-20 02:52, Salz, Rich wrote: > * I'm not sure what was meant by Rich's comment about IANA being hire= d staff=20 >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > They are not experts.=C2=A0 They are hired to do administrative stuff. = The things you list do not require technical expertise, but rather operat= ional expertise.=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s not to denigrate ops, of course. In fairness to our friends and colleagues at IANA, what they do is not ju= st administrative. Yes, the end product is clerical if you like - updating a= very large set of on-line registries. Yes, they take instructions from the IES= G and the designated experts. No, they don't claim to be protocol designers. Bu= t their work is non-trivial, involves understanding and often debugging qui= te complex documents, and relies on years of experience. Without them the In= ternet would be an incoherent technical failure. (OK, I freely admit that it's a= n incoherent technical success. :-) Brian =C2=A0 >=20 > I am a member of the TLS designated experts, so I know first-hand how e= xpert review works. >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > So far you are the only one trying to remove it. >=20 From nobody Wed Sep 9 22:16:28 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44F1D3A0E17 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 22:16:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tczYaTOUT_Er for ; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 22:16:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-xe34.google.com (mail-vs1-xe34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 149E63A0E14 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 22:16:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-xe34.google.com with SMTP id b123so2686594vsd.10 for ; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 22:16:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=riBSGAKnAZWgh/2ZQhR7rIobjosRWGVFQFU+tNvE1wA=; b=AOlDriig71Z5Ndzwmd5aBfIs4gQi3/QPD4PBDPU9eSnu8QJMpsZlgbXkPYETiiOa+O bEXSKCBfa7kbny7OIYMRiTHgki5yeYmGzTGNovHzpy0F3+fJQskBS74Sn+00avWGSdCE oIvYA6n1VTnSUh7qT6dkB0nHBtzWSo1vsRZMNKAnxPGN4SWpzbHUaIOafh7/3RB8XO+E TzoGeyYCSQDL3PzYJVdoX7TyThATcxjihjvAAPHpaq/cKA5zuND5Sqp8WXxKciWZqepr OYt3FNHw3DmFbKDK0DrpT8A/AvBGqsrYZhU4AiT1pTPUM8fmNvr+RQMF4DYV9va7IsSf Y1eA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=riBSGAKnAZWgh/2ZQhR7rIobjosRWGVFQFU+tNvE1wA=; b=OOTGkDwcdUaMGICzsTtlPOnP4aj7w0/PmPTjlieNYLcIbVeGLaglclA/D/1uY+XpdD FA6t+Gfw2NiCM6Z/ILbbZZWT5gltgWjy0QEsk2G91zZv3LIagrB2lILBQJV62YWg0tAp pTjyqu5fktioZgdMEEkQhRyBF58eOJ7jK4xlfDsG000VJcOzttqS7t6LsarB8Em8dYaW Sw7pYIiasPTvw/NGqFNQWCpDWfvSG9yEpCLxTgD2RbByS8ZAs100KZL6thZ6DUjtjH7T eB7tgyBWzdDg2kLFgUzoXOy08818lx0wASRdlM31uAXM2DmOH8mlm/8pbmr0TtbOi9im YolA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533WLd73cLWPme7lGy+isP3ZT1WXfnkrtuYCwchOhS7B03D+4WCP M/6lEIQxhM4tNwSM2kz4h+jlUCUsZWqaQyjkmZl+yyEv X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwxgjsQkL3ScmOtdbhD7zSgG1nDJygGthVnd2ImVwXtgNqFrYVGA0/OU19Sa95vr9ihYurugEpL0FqKqGYEXF0= X-Received: by 2002:a67:f511:: with SMTP id u17mr2921385vsn.2.1599714984904; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 22:16:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 22:16:13 -0700 Message-ID: To: DISPATCH list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006acceb05aeeeabcb" Archived-At: Subject: [dispatch] Other feedback on charter-ietf-sframe X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 05:16:27 -0000 --0000000000006acceb05aeeeabcb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi all, Quick reminder to check the datatracker for other feedback on this proposed charter. In particular, there was a second "Block" position recorded, but it wasn't sent to this list for some reason. -MSK --0000000000006acceb05aeeeabcb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all,

Quick reminder to ch= eck the datatracker for other feedback on this proposed charter.=C2=A0 In p= articular, there was a second "Block" position recorded, but it w= asn't sent to this list for some reason.

-MSK<= br>
--0000000000006acceb05aeeeabcb-- From nobody Wed Sep 9 22:34:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E4A93A0C7E for ; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 22:34:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.037 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.037 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_12=2.059, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wrlpATEDjuHd for ; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 22:34:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd32.google.com (mail-io1-xd32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B5CA93A02BC for ; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 22:34:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd32.google.com with SMTP id u126so5724319iod.12 for ; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 22:34:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=6bxYtC5XwX2kRBvt8zIh5C35lt0x6MQLE01h55qdfvU=; b=mjqSaJwjaLnKGNmq0vO7p9McbcXU5w5OUmSIiOavQXGsBrC2A30y9ti3bBf5X2A7zq 2baawiukxLSQbsUGgKVOopsNgTYWz3Nu3ei0PRl088Cc6MayxWIVkkZRMuX9GuI8Y8jg YpMCeoZEzjp9wLAic+J9FWrCGJ71OJNdVQx2SRz1Y5Rarequ5oenGx3JwCD6rF0XDiTy CbYhG3iC+yIpO/w71C6rPDsf1t6uw9kap0Vrnbj7Ppl6SEoEjk8R1PX5iRpQ2Jp3lHh6 LZteOMGM0zq4tShIw064hT5PwHyp/rv4MUJQuH/OApq+GG2kiGc2hqNVJcuRzhLlXaFZ 6MJw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6bxYtC5XwX2kRBvt8zIh5C35lt0x6MQLE01h55qdfvU=; b=GbCaGPkzgoeVHPGA4rCwGEdcE1kGcQbEjv5Q+8GSMicpSoXFcQN9GKquCy2b1JqJpQ QiIfF4dAeYD9W1xpExn4jXSb05vCgasZdBAIbazN/HCJ1O5f8TCGBqObWRvqu7HWVncE +7DQvY+VidgIiQJYigfsN6gmeLMm8k12C/W+3n30L2jlki7+hB0KWIVCrKxPolHTekbU bh8uofJ6P7hidbYdt3uv852gZu0FWnpb+weI6EF+21av70y5ygR1zHUVddEJvpo3BcyB lRNivhNzwLa1TgbtokEJAfGTg9G5qpzHdNt8Vil/+bNxbRtEIj2RGshzVSjFF36X7ctD fLkQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531MeG8BQgAg/3j11ctlbFw0OnxPf8u093iUzzdvvcS9zPjJLT0J 2xuIP8LuXP6xu6+gT+lJw9mmolah2tCAsk/v+HOG/xH3yLA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw8fonsmh5tcKQU9YL+HrYhZbdHTat/ELZLdbtS4dnrd743rYeB0YmkEiD1z/HAeNbY5z4xOr2m4vt2u+PjJxo= X-Received: by 2002:a02:ca12:: with SMTP id i18mr7166695jak.30.1599716069459; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 22:34:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 22:34:18 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" Cc: DISPATCH list Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="00000000000010207305aeeeec2b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] Other feedback on charter-ietf-sframe X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 05:34:32 -0000 --00000000000010207305aeeeec2b Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000010207105aeeeec2a" --00000000000010207105aeeeec2a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Good update. (unsubscribing) thanks, Rob [image: D6cpWg9WwAEyic0.jpg] On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 10:16 PM Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: > Hi all, > > Quick reminder to check the datatracker for other feedback on this > proposed charter. In particular, there was a second "Block" position > recorded, but it wasn't sent to this list for some reason. > > -MSK > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > --00000000000010207105aeeeec2a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Good update. (unsubscribing)

thanks,
Rob
3D"D6cpWg9WwAE=


On We= d, Sep 9, 2020 at 10:16 PM Murray S. Kucherawy <superuser@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all,
<= br>
Quick reminder to check the datatracker for other feedback on= this proposed charter.=C2=A0 In particular, there was a second "Block= " position recorded, but it wasn't sent to this list for some reas= on.

-MSK
_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
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<159973851434.24711.6050855169807417727@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 04:48:34 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [dispatch] Robert Wilton's No Objection on charter-ietf-sframe-00-00: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 11:48:35 -0000 Robert Wilton has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-sframe-00-00: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-sframe/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This may come up in the context of the document reviews, but given the recent discussions on terminology we may want to proactively avoid use of the term 'nonce' in the WG charter. From nobody Thu Sep 10 06:41:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E27AC3A0A39 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 06:41:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ipv-sx.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I6Cbc29PdpWp for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 06:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x82c.google.com (mail-qt1-x82c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8713A3A0A35 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 06:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x82c.google.com with SMTP id v54so4814774qtj.7 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 06:41:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ipv-sx.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=KY2FWG7kdqga+OMvDhwCIEoStPaL7sOxC7JBQr5VHOg=; b=tq1B9n8ItcpjoxDYqbtnGqgzny9Yk70ojMjxwIGVmkqnOgw0XVoDzxkF/DRTXqAJGg NsDcQzeK9hYs0c4Npgo/r4+za76QRFkBCq+ezz+YfCq2aHWUNit7kqrDcNIOsYZD+9zo KMcqYktmK+MFOy3C8rNUNjtE1NtmrEoDO9EcbiSNtCgLgeYkccLHGTI1fTxnCWokexD9 gwbzQkL4nFLNwqchQ0J3mv/e14RO5QogbhKVgw/oOnNDm/RBmwoUjt3/NToHr5pysdB7 G/78dbpeW+bN+4P/XyKzwgPMPOJ7v+NtRLpTFTg9vmLc8hIzl7xouM/5TVOE/ZHTouJE CtBw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=KY2FWG7kdqga+OMvDhwCIEoStPaL7sOxC7JBQr5VHOg=; b=f6fGKegcTHkpoSz5VBFc/FxHxEiLC/iBcMFCAsuomYjQtTjzSKMT2gc/2pyiMgiyRo DWohU2iojxwesYBmcuUmKAoO3ScXDFsX3veGttuuXrdrU+RB4pnY6cziWESgo+8lQ/Ue 4/eZjjrkP5rzQk53OT9ZbOV438o26YrR3FSdEsOFWQgeMMHdTmFfoOexX8KV51lo2ZXn RqJgtpgpPfl9QT3PBq9lS8Wc8VNy1A3OyvOeAdJDIrJe9ApaOKV18G/ChskJw59kkZIi Q/l86NrmeH4UwgL990AX/Y+19ajIEhiPwxblhNKVjbrS286XuyL6yGas0Lk+Q+Yh58vM 2C+w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532tJaxfzZzSy6FLMRabvRV1PYL9Z8phP7wLAYK1Ars/cixvnIxk AJglhSTIzvbfyw2Jw/ODfFlzpBMm/rRtDNwK0ZAFDQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyLjADAPdyslyBJ5d+uwypb4QgmytjBZu1vaILhX2ATYAjfHVyIH41zvPgvpx/eleH3Ttl4AFn56VrK8gHFDc4= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:1b92:: with SMTP id z18mr781016qtj.265.1599745294521; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 06:41:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <159968627781.11463.12811961039308421789@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <159968627781.11463.12811961039308421789@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Richard Barnes Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 09:41:17 -0400 Message-ID: To: Erik Kline Cc: The IESG , sframe-chairs@ietf.org, DISPATCH , sframe@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000002eb2705aef5ba3a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Sframe] Erik Kline's No Objection on charter-ietf-sframe-00-00: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 13:41:37 -0000 --00000000000002eb2705aef5ba3a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Erik: To you question about QUIC -- No impact. QUIC would provide the outer, "hop by hop" layer of protection, as SRTP would today. SFrame would still be needed for the E2E layer. On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 5:18 PM Erik Kline via Datatracker wrote: > Erik Kline has entered the following ballot position for > charter-ietf-sframe-00-00: No Objection > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-sframe/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > [[ comments/questions ]] > > * Agree with "Information to form a unique nonce within the scope of the > key" > seeming a bit underdefined at the moment. > > * If conferencing migrates to carriage over QUIC, would that have any > impact on/overlap with this work? > > > > -- > Sframe mailing list > Sframe@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sframe > --00000000000002eb2705aef5ba3a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Erik: To you question about QUIC -- No impact.=C2=A0 QU= IC would provide the outer, "hop by hop" layer of protection, as = SRTP would today.=C2=A0 SFrame would still be needed for the E2E layer.
=

= On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 5:18 PM Erik Kline via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
Erik Kline has entered the following= ballot position for
charter-ietf-sframe-00-00: No Objection

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)



The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-s= frame/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

[[ comments/questions ]]

* Agree with "Information to form a unique nonce within the scope of t= he key"
=C2=A0 seeming a bit underdefined at the moment.

* If conferencing migrates to carriage over QUIC, would that have any
=C2=A0 impact on/overlap with this work?



--
Sframe mailing list
Sframe@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sframe
--00000000000002eb2705aef5ba3a-- From nobody Thu Sep 10 06:44:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A292A3A0A2D for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 06:43:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ipv-sx.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Slknq8wLtRTt for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 06:43:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x733.google.com (mail-qk1-x733.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::733]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 065D03A0A36 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 06:43:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x733.google.com with SMTP id w12so6053798qki.6 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 06:43:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ipv-sx.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=IB7xXDM8hr63Q7z545YYfBbwqCjjqHfXpul4Pw+UtdQ=; b=fsb89ZGa7/MEsC2f1QhD0Bwj0iMTX2WFaajFs03XJGjC+n1sAXZP5Yy5OlXqPZjPw1 nJXwoKSqHGvbAHki6X6VHP94QO5zrL8gUPvG8oitDrYFYRuq4AP4BrxC0ujMNtOpUmZm 4gb9yHIgRdHHlKB10Ot/Saam8ChMfoo1d3HPfZXIBSrTJIDWNMUdAbjClXRH63N1uRVc qMKMgXVrhlDenPcIcv/cBtqC5Owv5DEbQsplML+ZMVxq+FZIDF04KHnrk+LtpFBUh5pZ M4PqQEpOKRznDJBlrNcLeF1icbvj2isCPKVixOnaNgdZtWEpM+onLL3Vd6mnlXz0itj6 Q9KA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=IB7xXDM8hr63Q7z545YYfBbwqCjjqHfXpul4Pw+UtdQ=; b=SawJtj+tbYDW5ggaX8fadPQLw79mNXqLsRYCVu3qR2W84JyeZjESUHtO0lzM6oXAb4 G1vKz6u+iwfBZnbX03XNJ0H0xPIbOV2fbqHXludM8WGyRP7QokSpcBf091lLRUZ5CbEf AB5p1gLmyheMpKLhNOTFWNoqpu440v6Q7DYe7Kq+yw62AtBvgMhmGCfWcMm+3+zrx/cM +BnBuHbfF8GZ0HLEwCPqf14jrVatRC//vhFp+tRYusaTI2hfqRDVmX0zJp4aVqzx6yY4 2sb4L639SPZ7WhaFQgYh46db5YIJEP7Dm1ZKDkjtbvkxoL4q9vi5R0skVibHQN37D5no FIJA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531ZfoTnhMdiZxxkW9OMohOJP1yti6nQp9Zr3LnsddsfvEZRYBEx TyfNjQOLC30qtxve/B5iTbChidTEXoqD/ZmPJOU8ww== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzoaPCXkW1bKJJqWQzFn887Bg76AxqtQz07ktxAKm4Wvy9gNxnGZ1wZDPsTaM7bEepDB6+bveBqLT8BCrRS14Y= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:1597:: with SMTP id d23mr7852975qkk.347.1599745431960; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 06:43:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <159968409648.6670.955964550557674225@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <159968409648.6670.955964550557674225@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Richard Barnes Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 09:43:34 -0400 Message-ID: To: Roman Danyliw Cc: The IESG , sframe-chairs@ietf.org, DISPATCH , sframe@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003413f305aef5c253" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Sframe] Roman Danyliw's No Objection on charter-ietf-sframe-00-00: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 13:43:55 -0000 --0000000000003413f305aef5c253 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Roman, The encapsulation provides exactly one service, authenticated encryption. (Symmetric encryption, if that needs clarifying.) So there's no question of configuring security services. I'll tighten things up to be clearer about this. --Richard On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 4:41 PM Roman Danyliw via Datatracker < noreply@ietf.org> wrote: > Roman Danyliw has entered the following ballot position for > charter-ietf-sframe-00-00: No Objection > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-sframe/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ** I share =C3=89ric Vyncke concerns with the bulleted list of what SFRAM= E > encapsulation will provide. My recommendation would be to reframe this > text > around what security properties/assurances/services this encapsulation wi= ll > provide (rather than a functional list). > > ** If configuring the security services is out of scope, where is it > anticipated that this signalling protocol work would occur? > > > > -- > Sframe mailing list > Sframe@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sframe > --0000000000003413f305aef5c253 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Roman,

The encapsulation = provides exactly one service, authenticated encryption.=C2=A0 (Symmetric en= cryption, if that needs clarifying.)=C2=A0 So there's no question of co= nfiguring security services.=C2=A0 I'll tighten things up to be clearer= about this.

--Richard


On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 4:41 PM Roman Danyliw via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
Roman Danyliw has entered t= he following ballot position for
charter-ietf-sframe-00-00: No Objection

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)



The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-s= frame/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

** I share =C3=89ric Vyncke concerns with the bulleted list of what SFRAME<= br> encapsulation will provide.=C2=A0 My recommendation would be to reframe thi= s text
around what security properties/assurances/services this encapsulation will=
provide (rather than a functional list).

** If configuring the security services is out of scope, where is it
anticipated that this signalling protocol work would occur?



--
Sframe mailing list
Sframe@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sframe
--0000000000003413f305aef5c253-- From nobody Thu Sep 10 06:57:11 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DECA33A0A2D for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 06:57:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ipv-sx.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z6LmlHXSgeSf for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 06:57:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x731.google.com (mail-qk1-x731.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::731]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4810C3A0A56 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 06:57:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x731.google.com with SMTP id v123so6073696qkd.9 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 06:57:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ipv-sx.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=d0PA05n2CZu95Ov7m2OhlIYUW1DbqbouFhzs0Trd1vg=; b=BWAaPiHjtc3/DxtbAx3GKZHY3o/2cbqDxhzOPqgzPG4FeJyR/zDM5k4x/uzONf8no+ rQ07CRPAZ2LT2GAyj8Auf6DDq9oQe42GBhzbkMbmRP+BTUnseT4u79Q41DplSXVOXRM0 ZD6ewJGX94zrbXGF8JHpJdB2jhk07LGiJXT7+MJCtqdgWTXuGOW00Tx5j8/3JDZuiyRR nldD04v8G8VoTl/EIsjaDdcjXigJoKnZEabd2yX25xl9AsuHn78b2V1e51BHDJTQay+c dBmi2cZ65qr/fvDIK46yDfjqgtVvJpCWg+uirXAHsl3GAAKb1I8wfquBGU0Q2xnZev5h fEiw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=d0PA05n2CZu95Ov7m2OhlIYUW1DbqbouFhzs0Trd1vg=; b=GpKdugaVKcfsxQFaCOsdrVneKY5VIV6HB2Rws+dkrCpaPIXVrpULoVH49E4WieUmKx p4bq+VRQHekv8hiaUCwXL2qkX3By9LXsbpdqVgssYnYZGxIclVNBBYD6Sf4MvTslo8d/ RMRAHxaipS2eBH/1xMicVUHksu6IvOTOs+NFj6MKj6bDo4+o5EAVdD2cm4B0emlnOpMM RCscIZYB3MMPuYQ1eQkFyK93Ni1e2gonmmy8kR/5lHUs4E/zVFDY8plgwcbmdQC2Tjhv 6Ccs+Do0eB3obxLiRAYjTj+9hFFKrYPtyOYbUzdAWDHnE+ERj/B7N7q3ZdNtj90iSaG7 vx1w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531hMkLsGKohLEzHKI9bKMylZ7TQWyB8fIPWZ+hWjBEITsLXqgN+ KJdoBr+9UqOlkynr4B7uMY/+3b1AYfYzfgV4IX6n/w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzJAYlLinhGJKmrIyZxmZ+U0ZvYARpH5+kSQKn7UAH7zdJ38+FZjObDaGLcRVByGDhdfjkmpsJcMzanW+GynhU= X-Received: by 2002:a37:d09:: with SMTP id 9mr8003521qkn.159.1599746220244; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 06:57:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <159969426190.10803.15690929161997611598@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <159969426190.10803.15690929161997611598@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Richard Barnes Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 09:56:42 -0400 Message-ID: To: Benjamin Kaduk Cc: The IESG , sframe-chairs@ietf.org, DISPATCH , sframe@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000030674705aef5f13a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Sframe] Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on charter-ietf-sframe-00-00: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 13:57:04 -0000 --00000000000030674705aef5f13a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ben, See inline. On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 7:31 PM Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker < noreply@ietf.org> wrote: > Real-time conferencing sessions increasingly require end-to-end > protections that prevent intermediary servers from decrypting > real-time media. > The PERC WG developed a =E2=80=9Cdouble encryption=E2=80=9D scheme fo= r end-to-end > encryption > that was deeply tied to SRTP as its underlying transport. This > entanglement > has prevented widespread deployment. > > I thought we were going to tweak this text (noting that RFC RFC 8723 is > only a > handful of months old). > Given the speed of the RFC process vs. the speed of deployment these days, successful things succeed before RFC. > It might also be worth a note about the general expected shape of the key > hierarchy (e.g., one key per sender vs. full mesh). > I don't think we have an expected shape. In practice, it will always be per-sender keys. But that's not an assumption we should bake in. If you want an IETF precedent, the right analogy would be something like CMS AuthEnvelopedData [https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5083]. Except that SFrame (a) wouldn't do the asymmetric-encrypt-the-key part, and (b) would optimize down the encoding to be suitable for real-time. > * Selection among multiple encryption keys in use during a real-time > session > * Information to form a unique nonce within the scope of the key > * Authenticated encryption using the selected key and nonce > > I assume that this means "assembling preexisting crypto building blocks", > not > "define new crypto". > Correct. It means "send the ciphertext". I think we can probably delete this bullet. > The transport-independence of this encapsulation means that it can be > applied > at a higher level than individual RTP payloads. For example, it may = be > desirable to encrypt whole frames that span multiple packets in order > to > amortize the overhead from framing and authentication tags. It may > also be > desirable to encrypt units of intermediate size (e.g., H.264 NALUs or > AV1 OBUs) > to allow partial frames to be usable. The working group will choose > what > levels of granularity are available and to what degree this can be > configured. > > (Available as input to the WG of available from its output?) > Available in the output of the WG. That is, there's a granularity configuration parameter that we might want in the protocol, and it's up to the WG to decide whether the parameter exists, and if so, what settings it has. It is anticipated that several use cases of SFrame will involve its use > with > keys derived from the MLS group key exchange protocol. The working > group will > define a mechanism for doing SFrame encryption using keys from MLS, > including, > for example, the derivation of SFrame keys per MLS epoch and per > sender. > > Will other sources of key material be considered? > Absolutely! The default case is manual / unspecified keying (again, just like with the CMS case above). This paragraph just says that *in addition to that*, the WG will specify how it works with MLS. --Richard > > > > -- > Sframe mailing list > Sframe@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sframe > --00000000000030674705aef5f13a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Ben,

See= inline.

On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 7:31 PM Benjamin Kaduk via Datatra= cker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote= :
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = Real-time conferencing sessions increasingly require end-to-end
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 protections that prevent intermediary servers from decrypting= real-time media.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The PERC WG developed a =E2=80=9Cdouble encryption=E2=80=9D s= cheme for end-to-end encryption
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that was deeply tied to SRTP as its underlying transport.=C2= =A0 This entanglement
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 has prevented widespread deployment.

I thought we were going to tweak this text (noting that RFC RFC 8723 is onl= y a
handful of months old).

Given the speed= of the RFC process vs. the speed of deployment these days, successful thin= gs succeed before RFC.
=C2=A0
It might also be worth a note about the general expected shape of the key hierarchy (e.g., one key per sender vs. full mesh).
I don't think we have an expected shape.=C2=A0 In practice= , it will always be per-sender keys.=C2=A0 But that's not an assumption= we should bake in.

If you want an IETF preced= ent, the right analogy would be something like CMS AuthEnvelopedData [https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5= 083].=C2=A0 Except that SFrame (a) wouldn't do the asymmetric-encry= pt-the-key part, and (b) would optimize down the encoding to be suitable fo= r real-time.

=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 * Selection among multiple encryption keys in use during a re= al-time session
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 * Information to form a unique nonce within the scope of the = key
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 * Authenticated encryption using the selected key and nonce
I assume that this means "assembling preexisting crypto building block= s", not
"define new crypto".

Correct.= =C2=A0 It means "send the ciphertext".=C2=A0 I think we can proba= bly delete this bullet.

=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The transport-independence of this encapsulation means that i= t can be applied
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 at a higher level than individual RTP payloads.=C2=A0 For exa= mple, it may be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 desirable to encrypt whole frames that span multiple packets = in order to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 amortize the overhead from framing and authentication tags.= =C2=A0 It may also be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 desirable to encrypt units of intermediate size (e.g., H.264 = NALUs or AV1 OBUs)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to allow partial frames to be usable.=C2=A0 The working group= will choose what
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 levels of granularity are available and to what degree this c= an be configured.

(Available as input to the WG of available from its output?)

Available in the output of the WG.=C2=A0 That is, the= re's a granularity configuration parameter that we might want in the pr= otocol, and it's up to the WG to decide whether the parameter exists, a= nd if so, what settings it has.
=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 It is anticipated that several use cases of SFrame will invol= ve its use with
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 keys derived from the MLS group key exchange protocol.=C2=A0 = The working group will
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 define a mechanism for doing SFrame encryption using keys fro= m MLS, including,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 for example, the derivation of SFrame keys per MLS epoch and = per sender.

Will other sources of key material be considered?

=
Absolutely!=C2=A0 The default case is manual / unspecified keyin= g (again, just like with the CMS case above).=C2=A0 This paragraph just say= s that *in addition to that*, the WG will specify how it works with MLS.

--Richard


= =C2=A0



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--00000000000030674705aef5f13a-- From nobody Thu Sep 10 07:19:19 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD7B53A0B86 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 07:19:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ipv-sx.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cX7n6hDkavb4 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 07:19:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x732.google.com (mail-qk1-x732.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::732]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C325F3A0B7E for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 07:19:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x732.google.com with SMTP id w12so6187409qki.6 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 07:19:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ipv-sx.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=OyQ8leW1TV6qpCS8oTNLkttLntIubi8YX0kdTowf6Zw=; b=wZp1s76RVSAOthlkNDELJKWmsniHzlJmUd1E7LZOjWrM3jRZdmAwxVPRpyImbzHXDN CmC6q7T+c95eaXJpE8KJQk0MVvS7wqq67DRgQn5XuAdwmgV5xZHsd79wq+r+3SRVEs8s H/fnC96Rpzg9ah7Jyc0ZsL5aCZ2XBr2LfU/UkN/oIdwas4zqwZhxEQh3DZehYA0A5yHl X7ARhMNTA2xgIapacdtLEmz67crsKIz6pEhv12m0SlhJ/LSEFdJ/L5sG9VKskVtxK4Xa 63Y67+Vy9NnHl+mgOjzew5zMK6QQaC9QeK6VR7u0kZsQAdYxRxMoZrpJQv7reMcCQn9L z57Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=OyQ8leW1TV6qpCS8oTNLkttLntIubi8YX0kdTowf6Zw=; b=I5lN5wR06fVU9Vy8OHbSjI3K/NX0wp2wQOLwrCje5FrWvNtSYmur0Zo1/zRXdBoMFU qH86phDa+93eyZKI7rj1831s8kZ9fr7jJD6IVN3kX3aIAa0Ba8C4K1zOQwEGLu5ugb3m Gc1O5p2ZNHncqmsDq4VEko9ZeV7JI1W5ws+wfupVX6gPGRB3e5KlG9CtiEmbL9o7GqSY 25PSrmxEs0MQuesH6QrpqffETOQKruXenDTl1DLAWS+FkFCe+qEOd/RaON0ABzADdjze R9ZvDUSzPT6KMhKFluw7/Yv0H8YnpDEQNhKMMDYvaSc+tB4ATO5UjXbJam9dW5fxEeIn niVQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531SraE1SBO1Wi4HUYbyHIyfj6FgZH44S+YPNELCgSX0rJGwOqx0 cEcrFjWKacJX75TnVFuZdJGUs6nuufmAMV0sdrkheg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxtAxe0KbIWdOZuDK+uW6wFxeaM3GlKU52H4GHaoP7m5FOYMhzcMzSWpllWUNZtx0d5QAc5hzqdaDs6ErG+fLQ= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:1266:: with SMTP id b6mr8243318qkl.371.1599747555777; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 07:19:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <159949693494.2875.16993532753477402380@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <159949693494.2875.16993532753477402380@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Richard Barnes Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 10:18:58 -0400 Message-ID: To: Magnus Westerlund Cc: The IESG , sframe-chairs@ietf.org, DISPATCH , sframe@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000caf15005aef6406c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Sframe] Magnus Westerlund's Block on charter-ietf-sframe-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 14:19:19 -0000 --000000000000caf15005aef6406c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Magnus, I agree with Sergio here. The whole idea of SFrame is to have an encryption layer that doesn't care about any of the RTP nuances you talk about -- all of the details of how what decoder you send the plaintext to, substreams, etc. are handled by whatever RTP configuration mechanism you've set up. SFrame is just a translation layer between what you send on the wire and what you do all the other stuff with. Clearly, the nonce formation text is not clear. I've made some edits. https://docs.google.com/document/d/10rG8nAR0U6cBBPffzXnLaPPYL4uzxYViAvgiSezoa7o/edit?usp=sharing --Richard On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 12:42 PM Magnus Westerlund via Datatracker < noreply@ietf.org> wrote: > Magnus Westerlund has entered the following ballot position for > charter-ietf-sframe-00-00: Block > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-sframe/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > BLOCK: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I know we have had discussion touching on this before. But post vacation > and > looking on this charter again I think we need to have some additional > discussion of the goals and how the charter describes them in relation to > encoder sub-streams and identification of what is encapsulated. > > In regards to the below: > > This working group will not specify the signaling required to configure > SFrame > encryption. In particular, considerations related to SIP or SDP are out of > scope. This is because SFrame is intended to be applied as an additional > layer > on top of the base levels of protection that these protocols provide. This > working group will, however, define how SFrame interacts with RTP (e.g., > with > regard to packetization, depacketization, and recovery algorithms) to > ensure > that it can be used in environments such as WebRTC. > > I think there exist a conflict in the above paragraph in relation to stated > goals of the work. With the following earlier sentence: " It may also be > desirable to encrypt units of intermediate size (e.g., H.264 NALUs or AV1 > OBUs) > to allow partial frames to be usable." in mind creating an RTP payload > format > that is capable of carrying SFRAMEs that contains these units will require > some > interaction with the signalling. Even without these sub-stream SFRAMEs > there > exist a description capability that needs to exist in an RTP payload > format for > the end-consumer to correctly be able to route the protected data after > decapsulation and that the end-point having that capability. > > If the goal here when it comes to RTP is simply to be able to treat SFRAME > as > CODEC in WebRTC and thus use WebRTC InsertableStreams as a receiver of the > decrypted media ADUs. Require the use of the WebRTC application to have a > proprietary signalling to know what this ADU is and then route it to a > media > decoder? I can see that working in the WebRTC only context. However, I > would > prefer if some thought was spent on at least having a model for what > information may be needed to be able to handle the media streams. > Considering > RFC 7656 (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7656/) and the work that was > needed for us to up-level how RTP worked and even discuss this so that we > understood each other. I think SFRAME needs to discuss how it is going to > handle identification of the data encapsulated by SFRAMEs for media. A > single > media source can be encoded in multiple formats. Each format may produce > one or > more sub-streams of encoding for scalability or robustness and this needs > to > conveyed. > > So looking at the above challenges in the context of SFRAME over RTP. So a > possibility here is to say that the SSRC represents either just a media > source. > The RTP payload format provides only fragmentation of the SFRAME across > multiple RTP packets and the RTP timestamp can be used to indicate its > belonging in the timeline of the encoding. That puts a lot of the > identification on the SFRAME layer, but its minimizes the signalling > interactions related to RTP. However it creates limitation about what the > SFU > can do, especially when it comes to repair. Switching can be done based on > Frame-marker extension header. However, layer related loss detection > becomes > impossible without additional information, or use of multiple SSRCs. > > Thus, I think the charter as currently written are uncertain if it can be > executed on with stated goals. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > * Information to form a unique nonce within the scope of the key > > Is this really "Information to form a" the best formulation. I am > uncertain if > the goal is to have a specification for how to generate unique Nonce values > within the context of a particular key, or if it is related to which > information sources that should be used when creating a nonce? > > > > -- > Sframe mailing list > Sframe@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sframe > --000000000000caf15005aef6406c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Magnus,

I agree with Serg= io here.=C2=A0 The whole idea of SFrame is to have an encryption layer that= doesn't care about any of the RTP nuances you talk about -- all of the= details of how what decoder you send the plaintext to, substreams, etc. ar= e handled by whatever RTP configuration mechanism you've set up.=C2=A0 = SFrame is just a translation layer between what you send on the wire and wh= at you do all the other stuff with.

Clearly, the n= once formation text is not clear.=C2=A0 I've made some edits.


--Richard

<= div>

On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 12:42 PM Magnus Westerlund via Datatracker &= lt;noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
<= /div>
Magnus Westerlund ha= s entered the following ballot position for
charter-ietf-sframe-00-00: Block

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)



The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-s= frame/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
BLOCK:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I know we have had discussion touching on this before. But post vacation an= d
looking on this charter again I think we need to have some additional
discussion of the goals and how the charter describes them in relation to encoder sub-streams and identification of what is encapsulated.

In regards to the below:

This working group will not specify the signaling required to configure SFr= ame
encryption.=C2=A0 In particular, considerations related to SIP or SDP are o= ut of
scope.=C2=A0 This is because SFrame is intended to be applied as an additio= nal layer
on top of the base levels of protection that these protocols provide.=C2=A0= This
working group will, however, define how SFrame interacts with RTP (e.g., wi= th
regard to packetization, depacketization, and recovery algorithms) to ensur= e
that it can be used in environments such as WebRTC.

I think there exist a conflict in the above paragraph in relation to stated=
goals of the work. With the following earlier sentence: " It may also = be
desirable to encrypt units of intermediate size (e.g., H.264 NALUs or AV1 O= BUs)
to allow partial frames to be usable." in mind creating an RTP payload= format
that is capable of carrying SFRAMEs that contains these units will require = some
interaction with the signalling. Even without these sub-stream SFRAMEs ther= e
exist a description capability that needs to exist in an RTP payload format= for
the end-consumer to correctly be able to route the protected data after
decapsulation and that the end-point having that capability.

If the goal here when it comes to RTP is simply to be able to treat SFRAME = as
CODEC in WebRTC and thus use WebRTC InsertableStreams as a receiver of the<= br> decrypted media ADUs. Require the use of the WebRTC application to have a proprietary signalling to know what this ADU is and then route it to a medi= a
decoder? I can see that working in the WebRTC only context. However, I woul= d
prefer if some thought was spent on at least having a model for what
information may be needed to be able to handle the media streams. Consideri= ng
RFC 7656 (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7656/) an= d the work that was
needed for us to up-level how RTP worked and even discuss this so that we understood each other. I think SFRAME needs to discuss how it is going to handle identification of the data encapsulated by SFRAMEs for media. A sing= le
media source can be encoded in multiple formats. Each format may produce on= e or
more sub-streams of encoding for scalability or robustness and this needs t= o
conveyed.

So looking at the above challenges in the context of SFRAME over RTP. So a<= br> possibility here is to say that the SSRC represents either just a media sou= rce.
The RTP payload format provides only fragmentation of the SFRAME across
multiple RTP packets and the RTP timestamp can be used to indicate its
belonging in the timeline of the encoding. That puts a lot of the
identification on the SFRAME layer, but its minimizes the signalling
interactions related to RTP. However it creates limitation about what the S= FU
can do, especially when it comes to repair. Switching can be done based on<= br> Frame-marker extension header. However, layer related loss detection become= s
impossible without additional information, or use of multiple SSRCs.

Thus, I think the charter as currently written are uncertain if it can be executed on with stated goals.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------


* Information to form a unique nonce within the scope of the key

Is this really "Information to form a" the best formulation. I am= uncertain if
the goal is to have a specification for how to generate unique Nonce values=
within the context of a particular key, or if it is related to which
information sources that should be used when creating a nonce?



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--000000000000caf15005aef6406c-- From nobody Thu Sep 10 07:28:05 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 228B83A0BAA for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 07:27:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ipv-sx.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rAz0mdKnKfOz for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 07:27:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x835.google.com (mail-qt1-x835.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::835]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E5263A0DD6 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 07:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x835.google.com with SMTP id e7so4937971qtj.11 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 07:27:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ipv-sx.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=1iiubohvZZgCoZZjDPCLNKlJI29PL4D8nMI9eCH9bdE=; b=MRlnsHP3x34newCm+2cBWCNet8cGH4b5/ZWFJBZhVmXFn76216pVfZiMbng2Wj4srC dcqk9LErtLz3EfB2iaTehuBh1NLTYhrbhqZgBVV5ecGhFhU0rOesWwdNzb/+CXdlIZHV JXv8jTwlTZK9e78Ox6VQSBq0KkFAZnC1uN/tAXh8R5mcUJGCAywJs42K15h9ysHuuIop oYLQQyqjq4w07bd79ouNeYaXoWfmY5/ZU+5xEhP9FH5BKAYvBNYRILHBAbuSdJv1NcDf Z7er8ncQxgAJeeBmwFveuWf9ig04959Okw1+LAyXsxYHSOtfq6OOPyn9aHBDaqfmP5/f vafQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=1iiubohvZZgCoZZjDPCLNKlJI29PL4D8nMI9eCH9bdE=; b=KbQShDCzglwCVC6xUWK5BUznE/sSlaXBubeGexPe8EiZ6JJdyUhdLhX+kEICjANGvy QUTIMuLFYyfZsO3hd9KdDaivjTFrskHvoa6aIe5cxSv1AK4nEmaUfFE0X6Ujby6iSDId NAnf1Tr0PE3WtGeqAIFptLwkpoaUiiAfu7moSc+vgYAT2/oNDyPhL9vPCrUxKTaxuSEW 3VeB4rAKPfzgD+njgtNO80heHJ7xrLBP7ZSdouQB3QPxkIo2YcbcvjCcbl4nZw+f033o RRnXq6ptfBZimvgbQ1zoxc1Ha5aOVi+A8wvOHQ1B5sQqRhvJCJD8OcgY0wr6WZX6dmPw AG0g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533GPsO4KVEoblbjOYNv84jEyB59KUxvwhaH/7rW42DIRWWVUwkJ I5w26fg//ECzk86+N4qS2U0+PpSzieUuV/9aAInw9A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx9ADstUJzOpvES+0jyEHnh3Zo89j8LJ7WRQiwuF/DOBz/oBhRjiSmW1O91SOvmMithBYpe2FLmk0KuEfzLklo= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:4889:: with SMTP id i9mr8272382qtq.353.1599748060231; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 07:27:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Richard Barnes Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 10:27:22 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" Cc: DISPATCH , sframe@ietf.org, The IESG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000dc4db505aef65e9f" Archived-At: Subject: [dispatch] =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke=27s_Block_on_charter-ietf-?= =?utf-8?q?sframe-00-00?= X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 14:27:59 -0000 --000000000000dc4db505aef65e9f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi =C3=89ric, For some reason, your Block didn't get sent to the relevant mailing lists, so I'm crafting my own reply :) - 'Selection among multiple encryption keys' should there be a way to use > different encryption algorithm as well with the encapsulation (I noted th= at > this bullet is explicitly for inside a session)? > No. The assumption is that the algorithm is fixed for a given flow, but there may be multiple keys (e.g., for different senders), and of course, each encrypted unit needs a different nonce. We could add some text to clarify this if you think it's really necessary, but this seems like a finer level of granularity than is needed in a charter. > - like Magnus, I find "Information to form a unique nonce" pretty vague > and is it 'nonce' or more 'initialization vector' ? > I've revised to be clear that the encapsulation has a standard nonce formation algorithm, and the wire format provides the input to it. The word "nonce" is standard here (see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5116#section-2.1) > - 'This working group will not specify the signaling required to configur= e > SFrame encryption", it is unclear to me whether the WG will specify a > control channel to negotiate keys and crypto algorithms as the current > sentence appears more generic configuration (e.g., supported crypto > algorithms) > No, the WG will not specify a control channel. That is something the application will have to provide. > - only one milestone ? There is nothing about the RTP mapping document > that is mentioned in the charter text > Yep. Just one thing, the encapsulation. The MLS mapping and RTP considerations should both be small enough to be sections in that document. --Richard --000000000000dc4db505aef65e9f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi =C3=89ric,

For some reaso= n, your Block didn't get sent to the relevant mailing lists, so I'm= crafting my own reply :)

- 'Selection among multiple encryption keys&#= 39; should there be a way to use different encryption algorithm as well wit= h the encapsulation (I noted that this bullet is explicitly for inside a se= ssion)?

No.=C2=A0 The assumption is tha= t the algorithm is fixed for a given flow, but there may be multiple keys (= e.g., for different senders), and of course, each encrypted unit needs a di= fferent nonce.=C2=A0 We could add some text to clarify this if you think it= 's really necessary, but this seems like a finer level of granularity t= han is needed in a charter.
=C2=A0
- like Magnus, I find "Information to for= m a unique nonce" pretty vague and is it 'nonce' or more '= initialization vector' ?

I've r= evised to be clear that the encapsulation has a standard nonce formation al= gorithm, and the wire format provides the input to it.=C2=A0 The word "= ;nonce" is standard here (see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5116#section-2.1)
=C2=A0
- = 9;This working group will not specify the signaling required to configure S= Frame encryption", it is unclear to me whether the WG will specify a c= ontrol channel to negotiate keys and crypto algorithms as the current sente= nce appears more generic configuration (e.g., supported crypto algorithms)<= br>

No, the WG will not specify a control c= hannel.=C2=A0 That is something the application will have to provide.
=C2=A0
- on= ly one milestone ? There is nothing about the RTP mapping document that is = mentioned in the charter text

Yep.=C2= =A0 Just one thing, the encapsulation.=C2=A0 The MLS mapping and RTP consid= erations should both be small enough to be sections in that document.
=

--Richard


--000000000000dc4db505aef65e9f-- From nobody Thu Sep 10 07:34:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B4873A0B91 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 07:34:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NQZa_0M5WMhu for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 07:34:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp001-out2.apm-internet.net (smtp001-out2.apm-internet.net [85.119.248.224]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1D9953A0B90 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 07:34:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 22378 invoked from network); 10 Sep 2020 14:34:20 -0000 X-APM-Out-ID: 15997484602237 X-APM-Authkey: 255286/0(159927/0) 1135 Received: from unknown (HELO zimbra003.verygoodemail.com) (85.119.248.218) by smtp001.apm-internet.net with SMTP; 10 Sep 2020 14:34:20 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra003.verygoodemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1504980B36; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 15:34:20 +0100 (BST) Received: from zimbra003.verygoodemail.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra003.verygoodemail.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id EnWgVsR8oElL; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 15:34:20 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.0.102] (unknown [192.67.4.128]) by zimbra003.verygoodemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DFAE080B27; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 15:34:19 +0100 (BST) From: westhawk Message-Id: <44BA90CE-A41F-4FDA-A516-AAF03371D1A7@westhawk.co.uk> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_21EFB90A-D401-4520-B341-2FE1C66695C8" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 15:34:12 +0100 In-Reply-To: <159949693494.2875.16993532753477402380@ietfa.amsl.com> Cc: sframe-chairs@ietf.org, dispatch@ietf.org, sframe@ietf.org To: Magnus Westerlund References: <159949693494.2875.16993532753477402380@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] Magnus Westerlund's Block on charter-ietf-sframe-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 14:34:24 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_21EFB90A-D401-4520-B341-2FE1C66695C8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 7 Sep 2020, at 17:42, Magnus Westerlund via Datatracker = wrote: >=20 > Even without these sub-stream SFRAMEs there > exist a description capability that needs to exist in an RTP payload = format for > the end-consumer to correctly be able to route the protected data = after > decapsulation and that the end-point having that capability. I think the assumption here (perhaps understated) is that both ends are = running compatible=20 sframe implementations. In webRTC this is done by them both loading the = same javascript or app version. In a more heterogeneous situation some signalling may be needed, but = that=E2=80=99s explicitly out of scope. > However it creates limitation about what the SFU > can do, especially when it comes to repair.=20 I think that=E2=80=99s an inevitable (and acceptable) consequence of e2e = encryption. T. --Apple-Mail=_21EFB90A-D401-4520-B341-2FE1C66695C8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On 7 Sep 2020, at 17:42, Magnus Westerlund via Datatracker = <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:

Even without these sub-stream SFRAMEs there
exist a description capability that needs to exist in an RTP = payload format for
the end-consumer to correctly be able = to route the protected data after
decapsulation and that = the end-point having that capability.

I think the assumption here (perhaps understated) = is that both ends are running compatible 
sframe = implementations. In webRTC this is done by them both loading the same = javascript or app version.
In a more heterogeneous situation = some signalling may be needed, but that=E2=80=99s explicitly out of = scope.


However it creates limitation about what the SFU
can do, especially when it comes = to repair. 

I think that=E2=80=99s an inevitable = (and acceptable) consequence of e2e encryption.

T.


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[79.108.125.160]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id y1sm1151446wma.36.2020.09.10.19.27.06 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 10 Sep 2020 19:27:06 -0700 (PDT) To: dispatch@ietf.org References: <159949693494.2875.16993532753477402380@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Sergio Garcia Murillo Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 04:27:05 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------1506EDBE54143953CB26F0E6" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Sframe] Magnus Westerlund's Block on charter-ietf-sframe-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 02:27:11 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1506EDBE54143953CB26F0E6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/09/2020 17:26, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > [...] However, the issue I really reacted to here is the fact that the > charter is > stating that it should do an RTP payload format. When doing an RTP > payload > format I think it is pre-mature of the charter to say that the signalling > required for the RTP payload foramt is out of scope. I think that > needs to be > part of the process to discuss in the RTP payload format how an RTP > middlebox > can use the payload format, and any RTP extension like frame marking > to figure > out what to do when switching. That RTP payload format will require some > configuration capability to be able to work. > > So what I am really asking for is the removable of the restriction > that prevents > a regular RTP payload format design work. And stating that SDP is out > of scope > implies that to me in the direct context of the payload format. I agree. As I read the charter, SDP is out of the scope for negotiating/signaling the usage of SFrame and the parameters that may be used for encryption/decryption. However, if the encrypted output is going to be transmitted over RTP using a new packetization format, we need to address how to negotiate that in the SDP. Note that this new packetization format will not only be alid for transporting encrypted frames (SFrame or not) but even any other audio/video frames. > [...] > Maybe one way forward is to break the paragraph talking about > signalling and RTP > payload format into two different paragraph. Where the RTP payload > format need > for signalling is not associated with the higher level need for SFRAME > signalling over for example a SIP system. Which I am fine with excluding > explicitly. > > So just talking about the RTP Payload format. I think this do need a > model for > how an RTP SFU is going to be able to do switching on it. Shouldn't > that be in > scope? Note that the RTP payload format may not be the one providing the switching information for an SFU. It is much cleaner to carry that information in a new (hop-by-hop encrypted) header extension so the payload does not need to be parser by the SFU at all, so the packetization can be "payload-agnostic". Best regards Sergio --------------1506EDBE54143953CB26F0E6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 10/09/2020 17:26, Magnus Westerlund wrote:

[...] However, the issue I really reacted to here is the fact that the charter is
stating that it should do an RTP payload format. When doing an RTP payload
format I think it is pre-mature of the charter to say that the signalling
required for the RTP payload foramt is out of scope. I think that needs to be
part of the process to discuss in the RTP payload format how an RTP middlebox
can use the payload format, and any RTP extension like frame marking to figure
out what to do when switching. That RTP payload format will require some
configuration capability to be able to work.

So what I am really asking for is the removable of the restriction that prevents
a regular RTP payload format design work. And stating that SDP is out of scope
implies that to me in the direct context of the payload format.


I agree. As I read the charter, SDP is out of the scope for negotiating/signaling the usage of SFrame and the parameters that may be used for encryption/decryption.

However, if the encrypted output is going to be transmitted over RTP using a new packetization format, we need to address how to negotiate that in the SDP.

Note that this new packetization format will not only be alid for transporting encrypted frames (SFrame or not) but even any other audio/video frames.


[...]
Maybe one way forward is to break the paragraph talking about signalling and RTP
payload format into two different paragraph. Where the RTP payload format need
for signalling is not associated with the higher level need for SFRAME
signalling over for example a SIP system. Which I am fine with excluding
explicitly.

So just talking about the RTP Payload format. I think this do need a model for
how an RTP SFU is going to be able to do switching on it. Shouldn't that be in
scope?

Note that the RTP payload format may not be the one providing the switching information for an SFU. It is much cleaner to carry that information in a new (hop-by-hop encrypted) header extension so the payload does not need to be parser by the SFU at all, so the packetization can be "payload-agnostic".


Best regards

Sergio

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[79.108.125.160]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id p11sm3322304wma.11.2020.09.11.03.04.04 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 11 Sep 2020 03:04:04 -0700 (PDT) To: Magnus Westerlund , "sergio.garcia.murillo@cosmosoftware.io" , "rlb@ipv.sx" Cc: "sframe-chairs@ietf.org" , "dispatch@ietf.org" , "iesg@ietf.org" , "sframe@ietf.org" References: <159949693494.2875.16993532753477402380@ietfa.amsl.com> <5c6c96621b29ebf4b1f84e53ae3a414c9d0ec3a5.camel@ericsson.com> From: Sergio Garcia Murillo Message-ID: <05085c6c-0c30-a407-8f41-b6c9be8100bc@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 12:04:03 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5c6c96621b29ebf4b1f84e53ae3a414c9d0ec3a5.camel@ericsson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Sframe] Magnus Westerlund's Block on charter-ietf-sframe-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 10:04:10 -0000 On 11/09/2020 9:39, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > Hi, > > I think we are making good progress here. > > On Fri, 2020-09-11 at 04:25 +0200, Sergio Garcia Murillo wrote: >> On 10/09/2020 17:26, Magnus Westerlund wrote: >> >>> [...] However, the issue I really reacted to here is the fact that the >>> charter is >>> stating that it should do an RTP payload format. When doing an RTP payload >>> format I think it is pre-mature of the charter to say that the signalling >>> required for the RTP payload foramt is out of scope. I think that needs to >>> be >>> part of the process to discuss in the RTP payload format how an RTP >>> middlebox >>> can use the payload format, and any RTP extension like frame marking to >>> figure >>> out what to do when switching. That RTP payload format will require some >>> configuration capability to be able to work. >>> >>> So what I am really asking for is the removable of the restriction that >>> prevents >>> a regular RTP payload format design work. And stating that SDP is out of >>> scope >>> implies that to me in the direct context of the payload format. >> >> I agree. As I read the charter, SDP is out of the scope for >> negotiating/signaling the usage of SFrame and the parameters that may be >> used for encryption/decryption. > The signalling for what is in the SFRAME is out of scope also. > > So do I assume correctly that the idea is that the application layer using > SFRAME if it haves multiple independent or sets of dependent streams there will > be no support for that aspect in SFRAME layer? Instead it is up to the > application to put such information to either put it inside the encapsualted > part of the SFRAME or map it to the lower transport layer, like to RTP SSRCs and > extension information. If i understood you correctly, SFrame is kind of agnostic to the media streams. Currently it has a single global frame counter for all the transport, so the number of streams/dependency between them is not known/needed by SFrame. > >> However, if the encrypted output is going to be transmitted over RTP >> using a new packetization format, we need to address how to negotiate >> that in the SDP. > Good > >> Note that this new packetization format will not only be alid for >> transporting encrypted frames (SFrame or not) but even any other >> audio/video frames. > I understand the potential exists. However, the recommendation for RTP has been > to try to consider Application Level Framing. In the case of SFRAME that > consideration moves up above SFRAME in the choice of how data is split into > SFRAMEs. However, having an RTP paylaod format for SFRAME, then that should > carry SFRAMEs. If you starts putting in other binary objects into it, then you > create a new demultiplexing point for format between the RTP payload format and > the SFRAME processing. That appears unmotivated. Note that SFRAME is not the only encryption possible with w3c insertable streams, it is up to the application to define its own crypto if they want. So the payload must be able to transport non-SFRAME opaque blobs. > >> >>> [...] >>> Maybe one way forward is to break the paragraph talking about signalling and >>> RTP >>> payload format into two different paragraph. Where the RTP payload format >>> need >>> for signalling is not associated with the higher level need for SFRAME >>> signalling over for example a SIP system. Which I am fine with excluding >>> explicitly. >>> >>> So just talking about the RTP Payload format. I think this do need a model >>> for >>> how an RTP SFU is going to be able to do switching on it. Shouldn't that be >>> in >>> scope? >> Note that the RTP payload format may not be the one providing the >> switching information for an SFU. It is much cleaner to carry that >> information in a new (hop-by-hop encrypted) header extension so the >> payload does not need to be parser by the SFU at all, so the >> packetization can be "payload-agnostic". > > Yes, I agree that putting the layer dependency information into an payload > external header extension etc is very reasonable. However, the RTP payload > format will need to discuss this need and potentially recommend a particular > method for carrying the dependency information within RTP. > > So to conlude I think there is one charter related question here. > > Should the RTP payload format aspect of the charter be more explicit in that it > needs to disucss the general model of how to use SFRAME and how an application > can use the facilities of RTP to get good performance from RTP mechanism like > FEC and retransmission? I don't think so, RTX and FEC frames MUST not be modified/affected by SFRAME/the new packetization format, so they work out of the box. We can be explicit about that in the chapter as a requirement. Best regards Sergio From nobody Fri Sep 11 03:13:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24A353A0DE8 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 03:12:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.848 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.848 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.948, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h8xykPYPNEXb for ; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 03:12:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 181083A0E48 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 03:12:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1599819163; bh=zjbCHkTXg0igzqgmIxv46mWJPbXrjAUVqscn2owvd2U=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=Um7XA13zk2MNfBC658x+UIQYIsDRPTvM2fl7vsVjMvYE3844abp3NNJVP7hE0/+16 /CvVOYu8DYa6zAsvJztaqudsw/TRdBdWF57Tiv6pq7sKxrgLxIDDoUpANr8gdI3fPY nI1MUUbbuR27KGAw1nK9j1QB1ftJKynEQazeAK60= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.124] ([84.171.154.81]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MwwZX-1kQvh33Aux-00yUVG for ; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 12:12:42 +0200 To: dispatch@ietf.org References: <159893058662.23844.17177953972396775177@ietfa.amsl.com> <1066090379.166058.1598958286518@email.ionos.com> <674529702.175704.1598975928192@email.ionos.com> <808181205.131590.1599043971572@email.ionos.com> <916398430.283512.1599128074641@email.ionos.com> <9C86A277-47EA-47D8-8B09-1236BFDD1530@nostrum.com> <80653043.461504.1599148969376@email.ionos.com> <1541395114.285974.1599580192738@email.ionos.com> <78D63CAD-1598-4973-9393-368E708BD354@akamai.com> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <763f6ca4-a75f-b1b4-98b9-2e20681b1d9e@gmx.de> Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 12:12:40 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <78D63CAD-1598-4973-9393-368E708BD354@akamai.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:iYRjhjtDBg3rBQmyhi0dDSiUXib/Tuk+mFpcuwTyKM3W9ys6lXU eFgA15ME/ITlenU15OR1TtU8JKgJPhiHnUS9TC8GuG+MvoLdUiJVsdqoj6YunfO2zr4kbGW /Y2Y17Vcbk1F5FFx4WV/sBLxNXG2iIdYO2eoUEHOU/6p0DqvB3152K8XvM2/NTznezM0MlU c8+dYyxeIP7+Urie8uxjg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:WxceSnipV/8=:3Fb9pJEPh3NE4U0+qYEWam 1NvTMjZCHFpz5h8rAC4IezXfJP9U1RRrOgJ/CjAil5DZ0QpaSnpv9G9x8nrQD/LhV+PFKLXK4 zj2XP+Blxm79i0SwfrPTeIwImbtLKFg5V3laTb7ZCJ8I0obMrFVCB3NfhcH9dVOVIXfGw+JXD g3QaYxXRdBg4O71vQFKvgw4Q2m3AlHd3Q2cqos9GuAwx/GkWaQXeLIhYhEVYnHBCWbzZMuvM6 PysV+Kho6Y99zUs5+0Z4yY8QMHaPcQ3uulFFdE/reZ60cayeFFrb+f7/m2we/gRUriMKHb/2Y h90su4VYQe8HJHUGpHppSAU1It2D/ObIicPcE2Uj6oTh4wyj4+QFk/fVkBTrUSkqsk8/b8r3C EYL/W039TDh+nelMVBbmKSjBO8N4ZBsaq0NYUTdIauCblqN3b7fGqurV1h6KordErmZv/SFON UqPwIHMhkCjYGvvJ9wYgzC/1U/66dLa83r/dpzEgYUxhjZJ4rpSpgYIgiJ14oiBCLcxW1NkfV JrCMLoPpKNeQLZF3bLL0jz/USFeRK8aEFQ0AHVrhOFQarL6HUlKr9CzuAFH8WojyoworQgd7S KsJIqBECQbcNVIstnree5PcMQLiqKJ1Dkj3cs3vfcUmjYUGxmfisrtrHiqtETxxeZkDqVrmFu w+Ob2ypMiO7cKNVUrjXaP0HAAENMt1VafdfwOBZngj846VZREbYfKUL69mjtIq7ZGbxauWNRV Gmr45PTVyGEE80hzWpP3rPR3eEqcDX12LaUac+QPwgUu5ER+VZy6waBCJlhJ6x4afiH9gszsJ CKMn7muT+r6oMfqXZ4jyCKslTOMZCcjYeX290mWopJgMYPpVom4ytEmmXb1gLypUs4Lsdj1PI 88mqWxWJBFy74QpetkzxhcQ6bd3jPQLo1Hxe6/oQqtnMFeZrcBH3TifIKRk5ypjfGHF/RZMT4 U7nzZ8MOehWbjFMCSgqVe5NdrBsWMcXdz4oamxtzU+6SflQQhN6RgE8nmNEOqdj3BhGf/nmQK ner6/V/B5mW8vvkIbZFCte8OOdM1RswiQPhdWn8dKbucSTBlns+NEKxiP0acCWtdsaye1s5Du qJJvFgtE2LxwwOxooYkiJMeNzTNIGliIAri6uFot/7rhYIW4nePQs6C8PtgLeY/CiR4hWXE6B 9aFxufzkHJJbSzpTx/6h1lujQ8YzOrYtqvUH104ngpA7iFNHD1NBuVRoXuXTzTy3D/Ea3cJjQ EGBOInI8+Pabvy7EJVnXYgWn1XpC6Rvx/39n1zw== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Last-Call] Genart last call review of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 10:12:59 -0000 Am 08.09.2020 um 19:15 schrieb Salz, Rich: > Does anyone else feel this way? I am opposed. So am I. > It **appears** that this change removes the requirement for proper > URI=E2=80=99s, or at least moves the responsibility to IANA, which is hi= red staff. I personally feel that we shouldn't have allowed non-URIs in the provisional URI registry in the first place, but it seems that boat has sailed. 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Fri, 11 Sep 2020 11:19:26 +0000 From: Magnus Westerlund To: "sergio.garcia.murillo@gmail.com" , "magnus.westerlund=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org" , "sergio.garcia.murillo@cosmosoftware.io" , "rlb@ipv.sx" CC: "sframe-chairs@ietf.org" , "dispatch@ietf.org" , "iesg@ietf.org" , "sframe@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [dispatch] [Sframe] Magnus Westerlund's Block on charter-ietf-sframe-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHWhTXfuLaYkFC4LEWqC8j5AGiLAKlh8DkAgAASwICAALgzgIAAV8mAgAAoYICAAA/A0A== Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 11:19:26 +0000 Message-ID: References: <159949693494.2875.16993532753477402380@ietfa.amsl.com> <5c6c96621b29ebf4b1f84e53ae3a414c9d0ec3a5.camel@ericsson.com> <05085c6c-0c30-a407-8f41-b6c9be8100bc@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <05085c6c-0c30-a407-8f41-b6c9be8100bc@gmail.com> Accept-Language: sv-SE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: gmail.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gmail.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=ericsson.com; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, > > So do I assume correctly that the idea is that the application layer > > using SFRAME if it haves multiple independent or sets of dependent > > streams there will be no support for that aspect in SFRAME layer? > > Instead it is up to the application to put such information to either > > put it inside the encapsualted part of the SFRAME or map it to the > > lower transport layer, like to RTP SSRCs and extension information. > > > If i understood you correctly, SFrame is kind of agnostic to the media > streams. Currently it has a single global frame counter for all the transport, so > the number of streams/dependency between them is not known/needed > by SFrame. Yes, and when using a multi-stream application with layered encoding being protected by SFRAME and transported over RTP with repair functions the high layer application will need to have a model for how it maps individual SFRAMEs to RTP layer functions to enable them to do their work. You get a very limited functionality if in an SFU system tries to send all over a single RTP SSRC. So this becomes a discussion in the RTP Payload format context when carrying SFRAMEs. > > > > > >> However, if the encrypted output is going to be transmitted over RTP > >> using a new packetization format, we need to address how to negotiate > >> that in the SDP. > > Good > > > >> Note that this new packetization format will not only be alid for > >> transporting encrypted frames (SFrame or not) but even any other > >> audio/video frames. > > I understand the potential exists. However, the recommendation for RTP > > has been to try to consider Application Level Framing. In the case of > > SFRAME that consideration moves up above SFRAME in the choice of how > > data is split into SFRAMEs. However, having an RTP paylaod format for > > SFRAME, then that should carry SFRAMEs. If you starts putting in other > > binary objects into it, then you create a new demultiplexing point for > > format between the RTP payload format and the SFRAME processing. That > appears unmotivated. > > > Note that SFRAME is not the only encryption possible with w3c insertable > streams, it is up to the application to define its own crypto if they want. So > the payload must be able to transport non-SFRAME opaque blobs. So I would consider this a misuse of the RTP payload format. The media type will be for SFRAMEs. I understand that you might not be able to prevent this in WebRTC. However, from an interoperability point of view you will be stating that this is SFRAMEs. RTP will not be able to tell a difference. But I don't see that this is will explicitly support carrying other things than SFRAME. Because that means bringing in other consideration including the security model for the E2E usage. > > > > Should the RTP payload format aspect of the charter be more explicit > > in that it needs to disucss the general model of how to use SFRAME and > > how an application can use the facilities of RTP to get good > > performance from RTP mechanism like FEC and retransmission? > > > I don't think so, RTX and FEC frames MUST not be modified/affected by > SFRAME/the new packetization format, so they work out of the box. We can > be explicit about that in the chapter as a requirement. > So I am not saying that RTX or FEC shall be modified. What I am saying is that the SFRAME payload format should discuss the impact on the performance of these functions depending on how you structure the SFRAMES across SSRCs. The most simple example is the one where you put all layers for a video encoding in a single SSRC. In such a stream you loose a single RTP packet between the transmitting end-point and the SFU. Now the SFU is only forwarding the base layer and not the enhancement layers. If base layer and enhancement layer share RTP stream, the SFU can't determine if the missing packet contains an base layer data or enhancement layer data. If the base layer and enhancement layer would be on different SSRC, the fact that there is a missing packet on the enhancement layer RTP stream means that the SFU can ignore that as it anyway are not forwarding it. This same argument can be applied between media sources. So how you map your application level structures onto RTP do matter for the resulting performance of RTP. Putting all on a single SSRC is not a path to good transport performance. 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[79.108.125.160]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id k6sm5122933wmf.30.2020.09.11.08.32.08 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 11 Sep 2020 08:32:09 -0700 (PDT) To: Magnus Westerlund , "magnus.westerlund=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org" , "sergio.garcia.murillo@cosmosoftware.io" , "rlb@ipv.sx" Cc: "sframe-chairs@ietf.org" , "dispatch@ietf.org" , "iesg@ietf.org" , "sframe@ietf.org" References: <159949693494.2875.16993532753477402380@ietfa.amsl.com> <5c6c96621b29ebf4b1f84e53ae3a414c9d0ec3a5.camel@ericsson.com> <05085c6c-0c30-a407-8f41-b6c9be8100bc@gmail.com> From: Sergio Garcia Murillo Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 17:32:07 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Sframe] Magnus Westerlund's Block on charter-ietf-sframe-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 15:32:14 -0000 On 11/09/2020 13:19, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > Hi, > >>> So do I assume correctly that the idea is that the application layer >>> using SFRAME if it haves multiple independent or sets of dependent >>> streams there will be no support for that aspect in SFRAME layer? >>> Instead it is up to the application to put such information to either >>> put it inside the encapsualted part of the SFRAME or map it to the >>> lower transport layer, like to RTP SSRCs and extension information. >> >> If i understood you correctly, SFrame is kind of agnostic to the media >> streams. Currently it has a single global frame counter for all the > transport, so >> the number of streams/dependency between them is not known/needed >> by SFrame. > Yes, and when using a multi-stream application with layered encoding being > protected by SFRAME and transported over RTP with repair functions the high > layer application will need to have a model for how it maps individual > SFRAMEs to RTP layer functions to enable them to do their work. You get a > very limited functionality if in an SFU system tries to send all over a > single RTP SSRC. So this becomes a discussion in the RTP Payload format > context when carrying SFRAMEs. I don't really understand your point, let's put an example vp9 svc. Chrome will encode each picture from the video stream and pass it to the vp9 svc encoder. The encoder will produce n-frames (one per spatial layer) for a given picture. Chrome will get each frame with its metadata (spatial/layer id + layer structure info + previous frame dependencies + future frame depencies) and pass it over to the insertable streams. The payload will go to javascript, in where SFRAME will encrypt it and returned as a binary blob. The browser will get the binary blob, packetize it in several rtp packets according to the new packetization format and add the metadata as a header extension. Is this process what you are describing or is there anything missing? > >> >>>> However, if the encrypted output is going to be transmitted over RTP >>>> using a new packetization format, we need to address how to negotiate >>>> that in the SDP. >>> Good >>> >>>> Note that this new packetization format will not only be alid for >>>> transporting encrypted frames (SFrame or not) but even any other >>>> audio/video frames. >>> I understand the potential exists. However, the recommendation for RTP >>> has been to try to consider Application Level Framing. In the case of >>> SFRAME that consideration moves up above SFRAME in the choice of how >>> data is split into SFRAMEs. However, having an RTP paylaod format for >>> SFRAME, then that should carry SFRAMEs. If you starts putting in other >>> binary objects into it, then you create a new demultiplexing point for >>> format between the RTP payload format and the SFRAME processing. That >> appears unmotivated. >> >> >> Note that SFRAME is not the only encryption possible with w3c insertable >> streams, it is up to the application to define its own crypto if they > want. So >> the payload must be able to transport non-SFRAME opaque blobs. > So I would consider this a misuse of the RTP payload format. The media type > will be for SFRAMEs. I understand that you might not be able to prevent this > in WebRTC. However, from an interoperability point of view you will be > stating that this is SFRAMEs. RTP will not be able to tell a difference. But > I don't see that this is will explicitly support carrying other things than > SFRAME. Because that means bringing in other consideration including the > security model for the E2E usage. Not sure if ignoring the reality on how the packetization format is going to be used within insertable streams is a good idea. >>> Should the RTP payload format aspect of the charter be more explicit >>> in that it needs to disucss the general model of how to use SFRAME and >>> how an application can use the facilities of RTP to get good >>> performance from RTP mechanism like FEC and retransmission? >> >> I don't think so, RTX and FEC frames MUST not be modified/affected by >> SFRAME/the new packetization format, so they work out of the box. We can >> be explicit about that in the chapter as a requirement. >> > So I am not saying that RTX or FEC shall be modified. What I am saying is > that the SFRAME payload format should discuss the impact on the performance > of these functions depending on how you structure the SFRAMES across SSRCs. > The most simple example is the one where you put all layers for a video > encoding in a single SSRC. In such a stream you loose a single RTP packet > between the transmitting end-point and the SFU. Now the SFU is only > forwarding the base layer and not the enhancement layers. If base layer and > enhancement layer share RTP stream, the SFU can't determine if the missing > packet contains an base layer data or enhancement layer data. If the base > layer and enhancement layer would be on different SSRC, the fact that there > is a missing packet on the enhancement layer RTP stream means that the SFU > can ignore that as it anyway are not forwarding it. This same argument can > be applied between media sources. So how you map your application level > structures onto RTP do matter for the resulting performance of RTP. Putting > all on a single SSRC is not a path to good transport performance. But that is already the case for SVC codecs, so there is nothing new to specify in that regard. Best regards Sergio From nobody Sat Sep 12 18:22:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C87B73A07CE for ; Sat, 12 Sep 2020 18:22:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3U8soHUc73lf for ; Sat, 12 Sep 2020 18:22:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-xe2a.google.com (mail-vs1-xe2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9B49E3A07C0 for ; Sat, 12 Sep 2020 18:22:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-xe2a.google.com with SMTP id j3so7586336vsm.0 for ; Sat, 12 Sep 2020 18:22:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=1Ixvv+t0+I5nCjmAEpnhyoBZtzBFLIpeEq5vNN+U7LU=; b=BfaDdLqt/Kh+4SOTgAmLcO2+6+CwojYNc7Nq1XshPoPN35V8XhN7lovo+yNuUlvf/B eNbbf/HqSkbx2JjvzdeyTSxg1CD8cEx6oNXZGqJR9xVLLs+Gvuu6xBfsyONmBrEgouhk 9Ei2vWzIW/gJt9Xs35iAZ2qVgLx2J22xMlV0Gg5cF8oo6+R0FZWzfcU9PmI8l4/pD9W0 D7Q25y6sjADObG4En0g644KowcIOfISb6+KNYKCQ02c7j8afO+rUfxOhe0PXyt5vau4Z I5pp+B9hAOms+GHZC/vXrWcHCRnyqJJecKtnVS7ZizxxE9FkIN7nNOrE6IS0jj/gFN6r 446g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=1Ixvv+t0+I5nCjmAEpnhyoBZtzBFLIpeEq5vNN+U7LU=; b=jrzfG4V3Vw2XpifOTHIJ0J6KuLYl2xkMwjhMWKMJUesXHAZzytdGPqBet5XuFURHK6 4FD8eUeB6aUep5K8+rGj2ao8OMnbfb+ZTqPwVbECIUYR5VpHHFDg6mN/lZcgXvDS6P/V qZ5eF9TRqxQNnWRUPR7kUrN55ZJRKfLxx2KYpzWdDoLy47fXYMSgDmWxF2zofmCHdfpY eNU0L+OlBGuJytru/oHL9ZsosPOajZYvlwdkUXo1N4hi5YBP8eiU3vm1PK3CEnhjSrEb NgCClz2dekUoqHL00W4epOCOCdZrcqsAxZ5Ba76BbS4jv12639pvTozHfw5fqexxv8ls ycpQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532MOBWKzvlF6cWOWgo2wwOJCqc3W/yBjQbOjmFGyrO5rtN1KD9n 8gTvTBjvNBq2gUZLXznlVGIdQbZM6fQKQUH9i5s= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy6/L6VTQ6rWPlQ0hWxHvtmajJklkJvoizrWpLDGGSyx2d3Hj1Jfwls0UcM4VSFMoQea5SCugIpab3EGvJsIEg= X-Received: by 2002:a67:fe07:: with SMTP id l7mr4660011vsr.21.1599960154654; Sat, 12 Sep 2020 18:22:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <159893058662.23844.17177953972396775177@ietfa.amsl.com> <1066090379.166058.1598958286518@email.ionos.com> <674529702.175704.1598975928192@email.ionos.com> <808181205.131590.1599043971572@email.ionos.com> <916398430.283512.1599128074641@email.ionos.com> <9C86A277-47EA-47D8-8B09-1236BFDD1530@nostrum.com> <80653043.461504.1599148969376@email.ionos.com> <1541395114.285974.1599580192738@email.ionos.com> <78D63CAD-1598-4973-9393-368E708BD354@akamai.com> <763f6ca4-a75f-b1b4-98b9-2e20681b1d9e@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <763f6ca4-a75f-b1b4-98b9-2e20681b1d9e@gmx.de> From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2020 18:22:23 -0700 Message-ID: To: Julian Reschke Cc: DISPATCH list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ac4c5305af27c054" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Last-Call] Genart last call review of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2020 01:22:37 -0000 --000000000000ac4c5305af27c054 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 3:13 AM Julian Reschke wrote: > > It **appears** that this change removes the requirement for proper > > URI=E2=80=99s, or at least moves the responsibility to IANA, which is h= ired > staff. > > I personally feel that we shouldn't have allowed non-URIs in the > provisional URI registry in the first place, but it seems that boat has > sailed. > RFC 7595 Section 4 is the filter for provisional registrations. Does it need updating? -MSK --000000000000ac4c5305af27c054 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --000000000000ac4c5305af27c054-- From nobody Sun Sep 13 03:21:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC6353A0BDD for ; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 03:21:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.847 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.847 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.948, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ydP_p4bQyPv1 for ; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 03:21:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB9AA3A0BDA for ; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 03:21:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1599992492; bh=s2cRPIMy3/Fh/9bbldStMo4pxKJvjho4uUNhjzihtec=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=GogjTy6SJS0wKvmLC4WxUWqjn3UKXtr+pdArGxJ8U+aWKcVVVXMHFKYaQxGcZeJPu 5rFQGEyyx74heaRxu0AD9HMFDQzhqXgqwGVMnZkihkojHn3F3MyqAhaJpeRmYTh8ol BsF5XjTtCVgVm8PiE6mE2+WUqIWkSm81rTQSVpaU= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.124] ([91.61.57.159]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MfpOd-1kja9V2S9B-00gLTk; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 12:21:32 +0200 To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" Cc: DISPATCH list References: <159893058662.23844.17177953972396775177@ietfa.amsl.com> <1066090379.166058.1598958286518@email.ionos.com> <674529702.175704.1598975928192@email.ionos.com> <808181205.131590.1599043971572@email.ionos.com> <916398430.283512.1599128074641@email.ionos.com> <9C86A277-47EA-47D8-8B09-1236BFDD1530@nostrum.com> <80653043.461504.1599148969376@email.ionos.com> <1541395114.285974.1599580192738@email.ionos.com> <78D63CAD-1598-4973-9393-368E708BD354@akamai.com> <763f6ca4-a75f-b1b4-98b9-2e20681b1d9e@gmx.de> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <3951ef85-1a6e-bef1-15a2-0fbc8641bc89@gmx.de> Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2020 12:21:29 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:LfETHDVQPsx2RMwPDWCVNLkRZ1Jm0ZmiSpnSXXSQPWRKr9gw2mG geSC63X4Lg+2V/0cJjRpM6jPIYScW9zUVVxf+1WbjHdPbUpnwcjFqmUkleApvy3q7cZpTDZ ZwsC1rm8FtIlu6+cueLJ3zAoINldfi6RVaTIetvXM24PhvP3EQMVVHTkLQ8mCYgzNjcpWuC 9QT9qYhuoFSI7cUyzNL/w== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:q4R+HzMz7V0=:yt14lNjituGTCmZYx0c7wn UCeYOiv2SshZHiu6GRJVu12MdHHpjCNub5LGiXOXIMfPbaOBiV9y0KBjxIExY6dfxnlTKxDt+ UumBeeg6AWq3KCOa7hRA0pEpDg/RoQgTcjo/qudxMriDBoXhEoi5wyM/SOc29jmO3UmMSvc/M V1mS3nkq/yRePbd2O02NZ0AiEPt3dc/bHaeQngbAUJ6F3dr+xDZi5eVz5sE/91mdtKLm/JDkp omIpjpnw7Qik8+mI/eZZT1DVuy3Vf9Hz+caxbF3yXkQZyaxwQO86H9P7yg+fmmlyIg8OrEJ9x couS/m6l2BlVewZBW1pNyiUWRoLRumljzPzds4AeqOsRGXT15gIcPyQk944scuiP8WAAxGVGj i22F4DDMKFbR9xnYt7sfRoSZSDI3E1Qf+ZpIwukxYoKq2Ox/+gsUBzUwwBeCu3SgoVNI/69kp O9GWTvD9wDEYBZ03JE+Q/vilTV9O5ov3VtdruiM11MopXQSb8Wn6Y8NUVrmrPlxd/K8NF9ckQ pQbbN4I8/6AxHJdvDelZZx4vCDyBliUVVcRRPYmWqelLtkOm1edyh8k1ia4jwjJobT61Yqv/k qYVjue2CNLHlcowkCNWVVzzVIYvkbwBjQWpKx/aoWn3vA5kKGzAdslXwdkx9BCMqTX+TWosbG MBEI5LZ+JNEHkjein1WV49lTEZsSAt6coUYuaWfAVDZzvoW19NKBaeuBh9Rji4RY32Yth0gD0 h71Lg+fPDjwgF5/7OL8QbFcmm46J/iPalB7wsOTcmBp/bkjoasAcfVXVvPR54eoZi+y6y/4zZ XjRaEjT0qJGdpW+cugiwjZEVczww4xEPW9+Fu0JfRRFBC3j4e4rjmCrROSY+CxySaVePzF3mr P5Y2801AumQDW2dod4XbsFTlRkPTxufi3SCJuDvH/7B5myyrCSv/qee6BeLhm1IkO0SASnbyU 368/955OM/zmc5O9v+p2b5vwwCo9EpGesoMIadzalLCX3xGU57F/4rJIGLuCqb3LBxgt/tcGp LukW/m0qamhpmlzhjYsOmWFp2UC4av8B04YX3jWZvNQyRXP95/M/C00Quntqyg+y8KTDwyXsC I3CCc8SlbwuSeYr9k1HIjdx/JD1eZgp/6BkhpdYQzXExjAWMbMuAHXAiWNHsP47q6+JHpBrAY aC5p6RnEdQO0ulzBg96PyCKgZLKMfRKkMVVXdelj0xdKsz8v3XGLJfMcDDLabV9Z499HfHUQc cDjgRzFCoyDXD1Jq3BMmtHcWnKPpvQvSW1K0C0A== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Last-Call] Genart last call review of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2020 10:21:44 -0000 Am 13.09.2020 um 03:22 schrieb Murray S. Kucherawy: > On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 3:13 AM Julian Reschke > wrote: > > > It **appears** that this change removes the requirement for prope= r > > URI=E2=80=99s, or at least moves the responsibility to IANA, whic= h is > hired staff. > > I personally feel that we shouldn't have allowed non-URIs in the > provisional URI registry in the first place, but it seems that boat = has > sailed. > > > RFC 7595 Section 4 is the filter for provisional registrations.=C2=A0 Do= es it > need updating? To answer this, it would be good to know what actual information was submitted with the provisional scheme registration request. Is that on record anywhere? (I'm aware of the thread at but is there something else?) Best regards, Julian From nobody Sun Sep 13 09:39:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20BD73A0AA2; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 09:39:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h5Ux7ZUla82G; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 09:39:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B77E53A0A9F; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 09:39:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089ae91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.174.145]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4BqFYx2mzHzyY5; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 18:39:01 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <77B617C1-2148-4AE6-8428-DAD43D01FBC5@tzi.org> Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2020 18:39:00 +0200 Cc: jsonpath@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 621707940.730046-06813984e408f3034509731a4cf59491 Reply-To: dispatch@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3B8242C5-CACE-4E85-AF0A-A0C6F77A5EDB@tzi.org> References: <159467093010.19477.7181341398452455173@ietfa.amsl.com> <77B617C1-2148-4AE6-8428-DAD43D01FBC5@tzi.org> To: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] draft-goessner-dispatch-jsonpath-00.txt X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2020 16:39:06 -0000 On 2020-07-14, at 07:14, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > I would like to initiate discussion for = draft-goessner-dispatch-jsonpath: >=20 > https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-goessner-dispatch-jsonpath-00.html >=20 > It says: >=20 >> This document picks up the popular JSONPath specification dated >> 2007-02-21 and provides a more normative definition for it. >> It is intended as a submission to the IETF DISPATCH WG, in order to >> find the right way to complete standardization of this specification. >> In its current state, it is a strawman document showing what needs to >> be covered. The result of the discussion at IETF108 was: > Carsten Bormann presented [JSON = Path](https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-goessner-dispatch-jsonpath/).= There is considerable interest in the work, and people think this might = be a good candidate for a focused working group. Carsten will propose = charter text to be discussed on the list. (Some discussion might occur = on a separate JSON Path list, but the charter discussion will eventually = come back to DISPATCH) We now have had the discussion about a proposed charter over at the JSON = Path list, and the resulting proposed charter, based on an initial = proposal by Tim Bray, is at: https://github.com/jsonpath-wg/charter/blob/master/charter.txt I have set a reply-to to dispatch@ietf.org. The IETF mailman recently = has been ignoring that, so here=E2=80=99s the manual version: Please = keep the discussion that is relevant to the dispatch process on the = dispatch list (and keep spinoff threads that are not really relevant to = that to the JSONPath list). Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sun Sep 13 17:02:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE1C33A08D6; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 17:02:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fKWUuKcGgYcB; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 17:02:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ua1-x943.google.com (mail-ua1-x943.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::943]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3F4FA3A083A; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 17:02:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ua1-x943.google.com with SMTP id v5so4897047uau.10; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 17:02:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=AUYlYsD79wxaFSTRHQmuzJIbKTFrtT9bv6oFBuFI5O0=; b=gRFlTboEizEB/jcFEHjn7kqFLXtiycbGTLZvO3+bXxFD2Snwd05Tpv6NShT4t+7vfV enO6pnmg4KgakHZV+mYEv5uFUDv5MkaUpwMSvUMhEeOlVxwsdIMJfS7oaUJqGtcMZq0t CUl2dflNzqWsPJpOPzc9vbBClUXpl5NJj1qN0fjJEAhwU2Pc8uqOSYTlbg2HeEXIL5pu u8OxJDd4pNu7hKsTNpDlZHoTth93n2eoeVpl2p2jsM61GBUte0DSdOW/veJGOjar1sxO dNw5FjOkiMB8ulHxS3dXvq/EYjZN0In/McxB5foKDf33G3mMhauL66hMSbK/n0gFSTh3 bW8A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=AUYlYsD79wxaFSTRHQmuzJIbKTFrtT9bv6oFBuFI5O0=; b=ANpz0tAKvjMwnMZ2ri5PvVmxiqcEQasmKY4oi2GR35ZHFCGGtdv4VnByj1X2fpLnNv nNlDVXvjN3rkJ++lWl9xBBwP4f5LUmJYL+1twNgpXU4wjTgaH/aPDHEqec2QgpA+wM9t S5CjHwVOp5DEH/SRKigWFDSFDdvVFlhZ12kjVPvyOkoWGEqbH9dnGMxba0XkorA5cdm/ fiNEyamTTLxZ4SR0EpOTWMpfh2EcI4/0VcclhMq8YjFlL/fL+OxlxS9YyCtcsC1auil8 1/1FVlqbuU3seWeoPEjt6adMj/7pHj0546Dv/rghj7VgUaW0tZpOjoL2z+KggI367evi XRNg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530RxCUxaW45A49scgg6GF272EW2ekHFOYLfNSGod3mQGDsktm4E q4UScHsmXvpX2m/mXUP1WdLtDFY+IEr7F30HLLe4C2kB X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwN81en/8yn8R24gnOx0+QpWGVGVGa9RDnNW0+jOHOJXtNlB+FMtJqifQpX7WjZM9Vnxqkqw/EruuO1+6/D5jU= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:638d:: with SMTP id y13mr5760194uao.101.1600041751615; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 17:02:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <159467093010.19477.7181341398452455173@ietfa.amsl.com> <77B617C1-2148-4AE6-8428-DAD43D01FBC5@tzi.org> <3B8242C5-CACE-4E85-AF0A-A0C6F77A5EDB@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <3B8242C5-CACE-4E85-AF0A-A0C6F77A5EDB@tzi.org> From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2020 17:02:19 -0700 Message-ID: To: DISPATCH list Cc: jsonpath@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003b20c005af3ac09c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Jsonpath] draft-goessner-dispatch-jsonpath-00.txt X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2020 00:02:35 -0000 --0000000000003b20c005af3ac09c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 9:39 AM Carsten Bormann wrote: > We now have had the discussion about a proposed charter over at the JSON > Path list, and the resulting proposed charter, based on an initial propos= al > by Tim Bray, is at: > > https://github.com/jsonpath-wg/charter/blob/master/charter.txt > > I have set a reply-to to dispatch@ietf.org. The IETF mailman recently > has been ignoring that, so here=E2=80=99s the manual version: Please keep= the > discussion that is relevant to the dispatch process on the dispatch list > (and keep spinoff threads that are not really relevant to that to the > JSONPath list). > Unless the DISPATCH community has additional feedback over the next week or two, I'll take that text and start it on its journey. -MSK --0000000000003b20c005af3ac09c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 9:39 AM Carsten B= ormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
<= /div>
We now have had the discussion about a proposed charter over at the = JSON Path list, and the resulting proposed charter, based on an initial pro= posal by Tim Bray, is at:

https://github.com/jsonpath-wg/charter= /blob/master/charter.txt

I have set a reply-to to dispatch@ietf.org.=C2=A0 The IETF mailman recently has been ignori= ng that, so here=E2=80=99s the manual version: Please keep the discussion t= hat is relevant to the dispatch process on the dispatch list (and keep spin= off threads that are not really relevant to that to the JSONPath list).
=

Unless the DISPATCH community has addition= al feedback over the next week or two, I'll take that text and start it= on its journey.

-MSK
--0000000000003b20c005af3ac09c-- From nobody Sun Sep 13 17:20:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EAB63A0921; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 17:20:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=qkIOR99y; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=HNraz2D4 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W_D9zGxC2hbV; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 17:20:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 77CC73A0917; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 17:20:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3513E5D1; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 20:20:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 13 Sep 2020 20:20:08 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm3; bh=T czHUEPPE7bfk6+lbMP7aJfoJ447JvHRFEHc+3eVWjE=; b=qkIOR99yYc3ZgSXqA 5814pTS9DRh2BAJ1GLsqOO4bOiKtWRMqdp1TB4+2Olj7OYU6pMQ9SPMWLnBhBMRP vQwn9qbbQvgKEpFpo2X92bjaVOxbYRWazxxG5SQKmF003YY+k8GSyDB726XQcbRK YF9PvHn9YGPMVep/S0izC0iHuSa9P9ufl+46aoVgCnBij8hCl4C11NXrrRuX1tv0 aFWlWNrgoCZP2q9OFDIlw+aKhFS8yVgeWalernB3+JMYUPP6rxI+buX6xt41sBbK V5umLlUbvHoteWAoQfR0He7RAYIoAR6qp8r2rveLTrfwwXI/74SI/TIU6tXwSNGH m3+UA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=TczHUEPPE7bfk6+lbMP7aJfoJ447JvHRFEHc+3eVW jE=; b=HNraz2D4KXqwmyffN6qV6dhIKTx0/ngggsraXjR2H7dtBR14PTIO2OZ2q euWRRjn5J2qB9zDnxD8AEwl5xvaaqBx/Je8a1nWo4z21N6MwaqMZLg2R+xduU2ia RwgQ3SNB2FPekdFPonZaS/frFYgKf68pj+yyLjT92/LKmg2MhNsMeKBV2q286ifM Wcpj/WO+4gzm41va+qc2VEWp4rEPy/KZkfI4xgGyNr5Psmqjp7Ajs0qnS8VPShh6 eXju/q9tN0sLP3rjvw9CC3xavxcgmF4subBQZJKEuQsIkJN4F7KKCKQ79VapqIRN gGhZveZeYPFqfoWW0yMoGACV5y2tA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduiedrudeihedgfeduucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtjeenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpeeffedvvedtueefteduvdevhfejgfehuefhgfeujeevudeuuedvhefgvdeilefg teenucffohhmrghinhepihgvthhfrdhorhhgpdhgihhthhhusgdrtghomhdpmhhnohhtrd hnvghtnecukfhppeduudelrddujedrudehkedrvdehudenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigv pedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.7.30] (119-17-158-251.77119e.mel.static.aussiebb.net [119.17.158.251]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 45D4C3064688; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 20:20:05 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2020 10:20:01 +1000 Cc: DISPATCH list , jsonpath@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <92BFBB4F-54B7-4E14-B322-A8B323631584@mnot.net> References: <159467093010.19477.7181341398452455173@ietfa.amsl.com> <77B617C1-2148-4AE6-8428-DAD43D01FBC5@tzi.org> <3B8242C5-CACE-4E85-AF0A-A0C6F77A5EDB@tzi.org> To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Jsonpath] draft-goessner-dispatch-jsonpath-00.txt X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2020 00:20:12 -0000 This seems reasonable.=20 As I mentioned in the session, I think there's a non-trivial amount of = risk here that some implementations won't be willing or able to move = away from their current behaviours, even if interoperability would = improve if they did so. However, there are ways to mitigate that (e.g., = a separate 'rfcxxxx compliant' mode). Even so, it will be important to = get good participation from as many current implementers as possible. Two nits in the charter text: 1) I don't think it's necessary to compare this effort to JSONPointer; = they do different things (querying a document vs. referring to a = particular part of a document), just as XPath and XPointer do different = things. Each has a place, it's not a matter of compatibility or = supplanting JSONPath. So, 'Other, incompatible approaches exist... but = have not succeeded in supplanting JSONPath' should be removed. 2) If this charter is predicated on adopting a specific draft, it should = be listed (e.g., as we did in = ). Cheers, > On 14 Sep 2020, at 10:02 am, Murray S. Kucherawy = wrote: >=20 > On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 9:39 AM Carsten Bormann wrote: > We now have had the discussion about a proposed charter over at the = JSON Path list, and the resulting proposed charter, based on an initial = proposal by Tim Bray, is at: >=20 > https://github.com/jsonpath-wg/charter/blob/master/charter.txt >=20 > I have set a reply-to to dispatch@ietf.org. The IETF mailman recently = has been ignoring that, so here=E2=80=99s the manual version: Please = keep the discussion that is relevant to the dispatch process on the = dispatch list (and keep spinoff threads that are not really relevant to = that to the JSONPath list). >=20 > Unless the DISPATCH community has additional feedback over the next = week or two, I'll take that text and start it on its journey. >=20 > -MSK > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Mon Sep 14 00:30:11 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A0AB3A0CDD; Mon, 14 Sep 2020 00:30:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 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HE1PR0702MB3772.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 22940179-27f9-4760-076f-08d8587ff9f5 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Sep 2020 07:29:54.9171 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: dbp1aQRlN7XJA7z9mFsTLBzNfk0tkoNl7gutCzZCh7R6nsvBu24F45g69YrWL7DH4ndx/GZxqdL5DD7/nekEr+gRR2gKRqIMihWNn/5Zj5U= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1PR0701MB2460 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Sframe] Magnus Westerlund's Block on charter-ietf-sframe-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2020 07:30:05 -0000 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[79.108.125.160]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id k84sm17770924wmf.6.2020.09.14.02.39.14 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 14 Sep 2020 02:39:14 -0700 (PDT) To: Magnus Westerlund , "rlb@ipv.sx" , "magnus.westerlund=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org" , "sergio.garcia.murillo@cosmosoftware.io" Cc: "dispatch@ietf.org" , "iesg@ietf.org" , "sframe-chairs@ietf.org" , "sframe@ietf.org" References: <159949693494.2875.16993532753477402380@ietfa.amsl.com> <5c6c96621b29ebf4b1f84e53ae3a414c9d0ec3a5.camel@ericsson.com> <05085c6c-0c30-a407-8f41-b6c9be8100bc@gmail.com> <49b13e5efa0b2ac0a7b09842dbce8793dfcf6667.camel@ericsson.com> From: Sergio Garcia Murillo Message-ID: Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2020 11:39:15 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <49b13e5efa0b2ac0a7b09842dbce8793dfcf6667.camel@ericsson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Sframe] Magnus Westerlund's Block on charter-ietf-sframe-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2020 09:39:20 -0000 On 14/09/2020 9:29, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > Hi, > > Please see inline > > On Fri, 2020-09-11 at 17:32 +0200, Sergio Garcia Murillo wrote: >> On 11/09/2020 13:19, Magnus Westerlund wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>>>> So do I assume correctly that the idea is that the application layer >>>>> using SFRAME if it haves multiple independent or sets of dependent >>>>> streams there will be no support for that aspect in SFRAME layer? >>>>> Instead it is up to the application to put such information to either >>>>> put it inside the encapsualted part of the SFRAME or map it to the >>>>> lower transport layer, like to RTP SSRCs and extension information. >>>> If i understood you correctly, SFrame is kind of agnostic to the media >>>> streams. Currently it has a single global frame counter for all the >>> transport, so >>>> the number of streams/dependency between them is not known/needed >>>> by SFrame. >>> Yes, and when using a multi-stream application with layered encoding being >>> protected by SFRAME and transported over RTP with repair functions the high >>> layer application will need to have a model for how it maps individual >>> SFRAMEs to RTP layer functions to enable them to do their work. You get a >>> very limited functionality if in an SFU system tries to send all over a >>> single RTP SSRC. So this becomes a discussion in the RTP Payload format >>> context when carrying SFRAMEs. >> >> I don't really understand your point, let's put an example vp9 svc. >> >> Chrome will encode each picture from the video stream and pass it to the >> vp9 svc encoder. The encoder will produce n-frames (one per spatial >> layer) for a given picture. >> >> Chrome will get each frame with its metadata (spatial/layer id + layer >> structure info + previous frame dependencies + future frame depencies) >> and pass it over to the insertable streams. >> >> The payload will go to javascript, in where SFRAME will encrypt it and >> returned as a binary blob. >> >> The browser will get the binary blob, packetize it in several rtp >> packets according to the new packetization format and add the metadata >> as a header extension. >> >> Is this process what you are describing or is there anything missing? >> > Then the client will send these RTP packets to an SFU that will need to make > decision on which of the packets to forward for which layers to a particular > receiver. To be able to do this there are first the aspect of that the meta data > needs to be included so that the SFU can make decision based on the packets it > recieves. In RTP context this likely are a more generic structure like the RTP > header extension for Frame marking (draft-ietf-avtext-framemarking). > > For packet it doesn't receive it lacks the meta data. Thus, for a more efficient > repair of packets that are missing and to repair only packets that the SFU > actually needs, then you actually have to map the layered structure into RTP > level structures so that the SFU can determine that the missing packet belongs > to a layer that it actually intends to forward. Putting everything in a single > SSRC requires the SFU to repair all losses independent of it needing the packet > or not. > > A even more extreme example is if the client has 3 video cameras and produce 3 > video encodings. In the SFRAME context it is possible to take the video frames > from all these threee encodings and put them in a single RTP stream (SSRC) with > SFRAMEs from that end-point. However, that would force your meta data to contain > also source identification rather than to using different SSRCs. Putting > multiple encoding on an single RTP stream would deprive the SFU of the > possibility to do rate control per encoding (RFC 5104 - TMMBR) as well as pause > streams it doesn't forward at all (RFC 7728 - Stream PAUSE) because all the > existing RTP mechanism that are included in WebRTC works on the RTP streams, not > sub-streams that doesn't have an identifier in the RTP layer. In addition to > having to repair any loss for the aggregated stream of the three encodings. No one has spoken of putting every on a single SSRC, the new rtp packetization would change the way the payload is packetized into the RTP packets, but not the rtp/ssrc/mid mapping of the media streams which would be the same as if not SFRAME is use. So this is a non-issue. > >>>>>> However, if the encrypted output is going to be transmitted over RTP >>>>>> using a new packetization format, we need to address how to negotiate >>>>>> that in the SDP. >>>>> Good >>>>> >>>>>> Note that this new packetization format will not only be alid for >>>>>> transporting encrypted frames (SFrame or not) but even any other >>>>>> audio/video frames. >>>>> I understand the potential exists. However, the recommendation for RTP >>>>> has been to try to consider Application Level Framing. In the case of >>>>> SFRAME that consideration moves up above SFRAME in the choice of how >>>>> data is split into SFRAMEs. However, having an RTP paylaod format for >>>>> SFRAME, then that should carry SFRAMEs. If you starts putting in other >>>>> binary objects into it, then you create a new demultiplexing point for >>>>> format between the RTP payload format and the SFRAME processing. That >>>> appears unmotivated. >>>> >>>> >>>> Note that SFRAME is not the only encryption possible with w3c insertable >>>> streams, it is up to the application to define its own crypto if they >>> want. So >>>> the payload must be able to transport non-SFRAME opaque blobs. >>> So I would consider this a misuse of the RTP payload format. The media type >>> will be for SFRAMEs. I understand that you might not be able to prevent this >>> in WebRTC. However, from an interoperability point of view you will be >>> stating that this is SFRAMEs. RTP will not be able to tell a difference. But >>> I don't see that this is will explicitly support carrying other things than >>> SFRAME. Because that means bringing in other consideration including the >>> security model for the E2E usage. >> >> Not sure if ignoring the reality on how the packetization format is >> going to be used within insertable streams is a good idea. > If you are passing other things than SFRAME you are also sending them without > end-to-end protection. Why is this happening, if the information was intended > for the SFU, then I think we should identify it as such, rather than having the > SFU have to hunt for it. If not, why are you sending it outside of the SFRAME > envelope? This is an application concern. I don't know why they would choose to do it, but the fact is that they can do it. > >> >>>>> Should the RTP payload format aspect of the charter be more explicit >>>>> in that it needs to disucss the general model of how to use SFRAME and >>>>> how an application can use the facilities of RTP to get good >>>>> performance from RTP mechanism like FEC and retransmission? >>>> I don't think so, RTX and FEC frames MUST not be modified/affected by >>>> SFRAME/the new packetization format, so they work out of the box. We can >>>> be explicit about that in the chapter as a requirement. >>>> >>> So I am not saying that RTX or FEC shall be modified. What I am saying is >>> that the SFRAME payload format should discuss the impact on the performance >>> of these functions depending on how you structure the SFRAMES across SSRCs. >>> The most simple example is the one where you put all layers for a video >>> encoding in a single SSRC. In such a stream you loose a single RTP packet >>> between the transmitting end-point and the SFU. Now the SFU is only >>> forwarding the base layer and not the enhancement layers. If base layer and >>> enhancement layer share RTP stream, the SFU can't determine if the missing >>> packet contains an base layer data or enhancement layer data. If the base >>> layer and enhancement layer would be on different SSRC, the fact that there >>> is a missing packet on the enhancement layer RTP stream means that the SFU >>> can ignore that as it anyway are not forwarding it. This same argument can >>> be applied between media sources. So how you map your application level >>> structures onto RTP do matter for the resulting performance of RTP. Putting >>> all on a single SSRC is not a path to good transport performance. >> >> But that is already the case for SVC codecs, so there is nothing new to >> specify in that regard. > So for SVC and other scalable codes there exists options for how to do this. And > where you can write and RTP packetizer for SVC that takes basicaly a mode and a > layer structure configuration as input, that is not possible for SFRAME as that > information is not visible in the RTP payload information. Instead it must come > with each SFRAME to packetize how to map it to the RTP layer. > > Thus, in my view the SFRAME RTP Payload format needs to discuss the core of > these issues to make it clear to the application both its options as well as > point to the impact of those options. This is already possible for any SVC codec re-using the Dependency Descriptor header extension: https://aomediacodec.github.io/av1-rtp-spec/#a1-introduction If you read my example above, this information is know before the frame goes to the Insertable Stream process, so it will be available for the rtp packetization without going via SFRAME. 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Mon, 14 Sep 2020 14:12:27 +0000 From: Magnus Westerlund To: "magnus.westerlund=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org" , "rlb@ipv.sx" , "sergio.garcia.murillo@gmail.com" , "sergio.garcia.murillo@cosmosoftware.io" CC: "dispatch@ietf.org" , "iesg@ietf.org" , "sframe@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [dispatch] [Sframe] Magnus Westerlund's Block on charter-ietf-sframe-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHWhTXfuLaYkFC4LEWqC8j5AGiLAKlh8DkAgAASwICAALgzgIAAV8mAgAAoYICAAA/A0IAAS+mAgAQwQoCAACQlgIAATFQA Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2020 14:12:27 +0000 Message-ID: References: <159949693494.2875.16993532753477402380@ietfa.amsl.com> <5c6c96621b29ebf4b1f84e53ae3a414c9d0ec3a5.camel@ericsson.com> <05085c6c-0c30-a407-8f41-b6c9be8100bc@gmail.com> <49b13e5efa0b2ac0a7b09842dbce8793dfcf6667.camel@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: sv-SE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Evolution 3.28.5-0ubuntu0.18.04.2 authentication-results: dmarc.ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc.ietf.org; 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[79.108.125.160]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id q18sm21198428wre.78.2020.09.14.10.27.47 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 14 Sep 2020 10:27:47 -0700 (PDT) To: Magnus Westerlund , "magnus.westerlund=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org" , "rlb@ipv.sx" , "sergio.garcia.murillo@cosmosoftware.io" Cc: "dispatch@ietf.org" , "iesg@ietf.org" , "sframe@ietf.org" References: <159949693494.2875.16993532753477402380@ietfa.amsl.com> <5c6c96621b29ebf4b1f84e53ae3a414c9d0ec3a5.camel@ericsson.com> <05085c6c-0c30-a407-8f41-b6c9be8100bc@gmail.com> <49b13e5efa0b2ac0a7b09842dbce8793dfcf6667.camel@ericsson.com> From: Sergio Garcia Murillo Message-ID: Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2020 19:27:48 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------A6220C6C449DF6DA458D35E4" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Sframe] Magnus Westerlund's Block on charter-ietf-sframe-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2020 17:27:53 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------A6220C6C449DF6DA458D35E4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 14/09/2020 16:12, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > Sergio, > > Having 20 years of experience with RTP payload format designs some of your > formulations made me a bit worried. After this discussion I think we are much > closer on a common understanding of the high level functionality necessary. > > However, there will be questions about where we document that interaction and > what dependencies that do exist on other specificaitons for scalable codecs that > are generic and is desirable to require from RTP middleboxes. In addition even > without RTP there will be need from the application to consider how it can > utilize one SFRAME key and its IVs to carry multiple application sub-streams and > the need to expose that to lower layer transport function to achiveve > performance goals. What I fail to understand is the nature of your concerns and how should we address them on the charter: * Is it something that we plan to do that is not covered in the charter? * Is it something that we don't plan to do but the charter is wide enough to allow it? * Is it something that we plan to do and it is covered in the charter but you don't agree to it? * Is it something that we don't plan to do and is neither covered by the charter and we should add it? > So I think some clarification on the RTP payload format work, and it that is > going to happen in the SFRAME WG. If happening in SFRAME WG I would like to have > a joint WG Last call with AVTCORE WG. I raised that question already a couple of times. I am not sure what is the role of the SFRAME WG regarding specifying a new RTP codec-agnostic payload. IMHO this WG should collect the requirements, match them to current specifications, and if anything is missing, liaise with the appropriate groups in order to produce the specs based on our requirements. Best regards Sergio --------------A6220C6C449DF6DA458D35E4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 14/09/2020 16:12, Magnus Westerlund wrote:
Sergio,

Having 20 years of experience with RTP payload format designs some of your
formulations made me a bit worried. After this discussion I think we are much
closer on a common understanding of the high level functionality necessary. 

However, there will be questions about where we document that interaction and
what dependencies that do exist on other specificaitons for scalable codecs that
are generic and is desirable to require from RTP middleboxes. In addition even
without RTP there will be need from the application to consider how it can
utilize one SFRAME key and its IVs to carry multiple application sub-streams and
the need to expose that to lower layer transport function to achiveve
performance goals.


What I fail to understand is the nature of your concerns and how should we address them on the charter:

  • Is it something that we plan to do that is not covered in the charter?
  • Is it something that we don't plan to do but the charter is wide enough to allow it?
  • Is it something that we plan to do and it is covered in the charter but you don't agree to it?
  • Is it something that we don't plan to do and is neither covered by the charter and we should add it?


So I think some clarification on the RTP payload format work, and it that is
going to happen in the SFRAME WG. If happening in SFRAME WG I would like to have
a joint WG Last call with AVTCORE WG.


I raised that question already a couple of times. I am not sure what is the role of the SFRAME WG regarding specifying a new RTP codec-agnostic payload.

IMHO this WG should collect the requirements, match them to current specifications, and if anything is missing, liaise with the appropriate groups in order to produce the specs based on our requirements.

Best regards

Sergio

--------------A6220C6C449DF6DA458D35E4-- From nobody Mon Sep 14 11:07:56 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 683193A0DFF; Mon, 14 Sep 2020 11:07:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VxbvJpRoYLyH; Mon, 14 Sep 2020 11:07:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ua1-x933.google.com (mail-ua1-x933.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::933]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E89F53A0DEB; Mon, 14 Sep 2020 11:07:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ua1-x933.google.com with SMTP id i22so143930uat.8; Mon, 14 Sep 2020 11:07:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=qq5V+KdtCIuM8LhKtDnotRJDm8AMZtI5RHQT2Bogl24=; b=bs6HuqPlfD+UdxyrbUIVl2YzajZQ4Jjs4TQSPe005DRiO9zIL3gtildPD9u14BSXza wSevNBOeQF/8n/B4SHqwitZN6bmVco7ksMtsqf7v4PISWCwXa2N5curH7UBNabQ5Q/P/ +sCEjgBlfsEoSiDD0IHKVscP26U8UGP8+ebRPNXNLrTYPbrnA4FuZ5aHw8Umqk7K+VAO ZPzFHzrupnbbaGLbX9t7ZCV/DG9dHwdpUgqaUjEtdKeDtqzBVE0/XlZZn1j25I0H8rSN XwL94I/+LFDjApR6Clw+k6tX81QqhErFiqkpzXTv78g2uk0jXd2QBQ/avlw+pLAZW/LT Yw9g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qq5V+KdtCIuM8LhKtDnotRJDm8AMZtI5RHQT2Bogl24=; b=QJ4quplligzw4YDWiAdwVj4/QwzRL9ZSwFzRyLW47ns32VmXvjtMquieSKJf91jUv+ +2IwOpgFRnuIBfuq3lXVU6ohzy8D0azbK1nFWrl6W4Z3f7R03bL1ygSvkJbJa6ryw1zg s4hqoSsbdIKCUG7551MHov8C+9pARhbkqSRYWPMw6cFn+lUa7XOzkkJbJdLeFHnADjb3 FvhkPgWiUTBrOB3hTAAX1EzZ4g5mmKYn8DHnXiWk8Wz4O/H1HoV/T8GRfSvEa+xOE4yn FixUTyIUxaOBirvR9DNi6JA5SJ7g8GbclMpwaGQ+pemp0o7wAfadUGsRuYXtivRMvtrD fqnA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530iAj8PmgKMrXedNPgjktoenaKsaBaNPqJoG2x1FaWUsyA5XGh1 r5uJ9fyYt7rLX/8Qt60rRQhRS/c50Klvo7JX81i0GwLt X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxQ0Y8gp9n8SKfD16NP+Tj/Gqtb8j88xV26DAxTZlLbDfB9rzvqBrhJXzqr2S84rvjgE3qa7SdY6Or1VqQ6abE= X-Received: by 2002:a9f:26a5:: with SMTP id 34mr8124583uay.67.1600106865810; Mon, 14 Sep 2020 11:07:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <159467093010.19477.7181341398452455173@ietfa.amsl.com> <77B617C1-2148-4AE6-8428-DAD43D01FBC5@tzi.org> <3B8242C5-CACE-4E85-AF0A-A0C6F77A5EDB@tzi.org> <92BFBB4F-54B7-4E14-B322-A8B323631584@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <92BFBB4F-54B7-4E14-B322-A8B323631584@mnot.net> From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2020 11:07:32 -0700 Message-ID: To: Mark Nottingham Cc: DISPATCH list , jsonpath@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000056e23005af49e907" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Jsonpath] draft-goessner-dispatch-jsonpath-00.txt X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2020 18:07:52 -0000 --00000000000056e23005af49e907 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 5:20 PM Mark Nottingham wrote: > Two nits in the charter text: > > 1) I don't think it's necessary to compare this effort to JSONPointer; > they do different things (querying a document vs. referring to a particular > part of a document), just as XPath and XPointer do different things. Each > has a place, it's not a matter of compatibility or supplanting JSONPath. > So, 'Other, incompatible approaches exist... but have not succeeded in > supplanting JSONPath' should be removed. > I suggested including something like this to head off questions from people who might wonder why we're standardizing another JSON referencing method when JSON Pointer wasn't that long ago. Perhaps: "This work is similar in concept to JSON Pointer (RFC xxxx) but documents a mechanism that has broader support yet is in need of formal standardization." ? 2) If this charter is predicated on adopting a specific draft, it should be > listed (e.g., as we did in < > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-quic/01/>). > I don't think there is such a draft yet, just the external source material. We could say that the intent is to generate a draft from the text found there. -MSK --00000000000056e23005af49e907 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 5:20 PM Mark Nott= ingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:
Two nits in the charter text:

1) I don't think it's necessary to compare this effort to JSONPoint= er; they do different things (querying a document vs. referring to a partic= ular part of a document), just as XPath and XPointer do different things. E= ach has a place, it's not a matter of compatibility or supplanting JSON= Path. So, 'Other, incompatible approaches exist... but have not succeed= ed in supplanting JSONPath' should be removed.
I suggested including something like this to head off questions= from people who might wonder why we're standardizing another JSON refe= rencing method when JSON Pointer wasn't that long ago.=C2=A0 Perhaps:
"This work is similar in concept to JSON Pointer (RFC= xxxx) but documents a mechanism that has broader support yet is in need of= formal standardization."

?

2) If this charter is predicated on adopting a specific draft, it should be= listed (e.g., as we did in <https://datatr= acker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-quic/01/>).
I don't think there is such a draft yet, just the external = source material.=C2=A0 We could say that the intent is to generate a draft = from the text found there.

-MSK

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So this is a non-issue." [BA] Right. SFRAME doesn't change the SSRC allocation scheme, nor does it prevent the SFU from modifying the SSRC. If the application was sending simulcast with multiple SSRCs/RIDs, SFRAME won't affect that. Similarly with SVC, if the application was sending all layers on a single SSRC, SFRAME won't change that either. "If you read my example above, this information is known before the frame goes to the Insertable Stream process, so it will be available for the RTP packetization without going via SFRAME." [BA] As you note, the metadata contains information about each frame, and the Insertable Streams implementation assumes that the application modifications don't invalidate the metadata, which currently contains info such as frame type, frameId, dependencies, width, height, LID, TID, SSRC and CSRCs. Most of the RTP header extension fields are the same for each packet within a frame; only a few will change between packets within a frame, such as the Start and End bits. The exercise is to make sure that the metadata is sufficient to enable the generic RTP packetizer to fill in all the RTP header and RTP header extension fields. For the RTP header extension fields, this includes info such as Discardable, Switch, Required, Base Layer Sync, etc. Today it isn't clear to me that this info is completely determinable from the Insertable Streams metadata. Given that we don't have a lot of deployment of frame forwarding RTP header extensions yet, it's probably best to avoid tying SFRAME to any particular design. For example, you wouldn't want a design that could only function with the framemarking RTP header extension or the Generic Frame Descriptor or the Dependency Descriptor, so that a new specification is needed when the N+1 frame forwarding technology comes along. On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 2:39 AM Sergio Garcia Murillo < sergio.garcia.murillo@gmail.com> wrote: > On 14/09/2020 9:29, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Please see inline > > > > On Fri, 2020-09-11 at 17:32 +0200, Sergio Garcia Murillo wrote: > >> On 11/09/2020 13:19, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > >>> Hi, > >>> > >>>>> So do I assume correctly that the idea is that the application layer > >>>>> using SFRAME if it haves multiple independent or sets of dependent > >>>>> streams there will be no support for that aspect in SFRAME layer? > >>>>> Instead it is up to the application to put such information to either > >>>>> put it inside the encapsualted part of the SFRAME or map it to the > >>>>> lower transport layer, like to RTP SSRCs and extension information. > >>>> If i understood you correctly, SFrame is kind of agnostic to the media > >>>> streams. Currently it has a single global frame counter for all the > >>> transport, so > >>>> the number of streams/dependency between them is not known/needed > >>>> by SFrame. > >>> Yes, and when using a multi-stream application with layered encoding > being > >>> protected by SFRAME and transported over RTP with repair functions the > high > >>> layer application will need to have a model for how it maps individual > >>> SFRAMEs to RTP layer functions to enable them to do their work. You > get a > >>> very limited functionality if in an SFU system tries to send all over a > >>> single RTP SSRC. So this becomes a discussion in the RTP Payload format > >>> context when carrying SFRAMEs. > >> > >> I don't really understand your point, let's put an example vp9 svc. > >> > >> Chrome will encode each picture from the video stream and pass it to the > >> vp9 svc encoder. The encoder will produce n-frames (one per spatial > >> layer) for a given picture. > >> > >> Chrome will get each frame with its metadata (spatial/layer id + layer > >> structure info + previous frame dependencies + future frame depencies) > >> and pass it over to the insertable streams. > >> > >> The payload will go to javascript, in where SFRAME will encrypt it and > >> returned as a binary blob. > >> > >> The browser will get the binary blob, packetize it in several rtp > >> packets according to the new packetization format and add the metadata > >> as a header extension. > >> > >> Is this process what you are describing or is there anything missing? > >> > > Then the client will send these RTP packets to an SFU that will need to > make > > decision on which of the packets to forward for which layers to a > particular > > receiver. To be able to do this there are first the aspect of that the > meta data > > needs to be included so that the SFU can make decision based on the > packets it > > recieves. In RTP context this likely are a more generic structure like > the RTP > > header extension for Frame marking (draft-ietf-avtext-framemarking). > > > > For packet it doesn't receive it lacks the meta data. Thus, for a more > efficient > > repair of packets that are missing and to repair only packets that the > SFU > > actually needs, then you actually have to map the layered structure into > RTP > > level structures so that the SFU can determine that the missing packet > belongs > > to a layer that it actually intends to forward. Putting everything in a > single > > SSRC requires the SFU to repair all losses independent of it needing the > packet > > or not. > > > > A even more extreme example is if the client has 3 video cameras and > produce 3 > > video encodings. In the SFRAME context it is possible to take the video > frames > > from all these threee encodings and put them in a single RTP stream > (SSRC) with > > SFRAMEs from that end-point. However, that would force your meta data to > contain > > also source identification rather than to using different SSRCs. Putting > > multiple encoding on an single RTP stream would deprive the SFU of the > > possibility to do rate control per encoding (RFC 5104 - TMMBR) as well > as pause > > streams it doesn't forward at all (RFC 7728 - Stream PAUSE) because all > the > > existing RTP mechanism that are included in WebRTC works on the RTP > streams, not > > sub-streams that doesn't have an identifier in the RTP layer. In > addition to > > having to repair any loss for the aggregated stream of the three > encodings. > > No one has spoken of putting every on a single SSRC, the new rtp > packetization would change the way the payload is packetized into the > RTP packets, but not the rtp/ssrc/mid mapping of the media streams which > would be the same as if not SFRAME is use. So this is a non-issue. > > > > > >>>>>> However, if the encrypted output is going to be transmitted over RTP > >>>>>> using a new packetization format, we need to address how to > negotiate > >>>>>> that in the SDP. > >>>>> Good > >>>>> > >>>>>> Note that this new packetization format will not only be alid for > >>>>>> transporting encrypted frames (SFrame or not) but even any other > >>>>>> audio/video frames. > >>>>> I understand the potential exists. However, the recommendation for > RTP > >>>>> has been to try to consider Application Level Framing. In the case of > >>>>> SFRAME that consideration moves up above SFRAME in the choice of how > >>>>> data is split into SFRAMEs. However, having an RTP paylaod format for > >>>>> SFRAME, then that should carry SFRAMEs. If you starts putting in > other > >>>>> binary objects into it, then you create a new demultiplexing point > for > >>>>> format between the RTP payload format and the SFRAME processing. That > >>>> appears unmotivated. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Note that SFRAME is not the only encryption possible with w3c > insertable > >>>> streams, it is up to the application to define its own crypto if they > >>> want. So > >>>> the payload must be able to transport non-SFRAME opaque blobs. > >>> So I would consider this a misuse of the RTP payload format. The media > type > >>> will be for SFRAMEs. I understand that you might not be able to > prevent this > >>> in WebRTC. However, from an interoperability point of view you will be > >>> stating that this is SFRAMEs. RTP will not be able to tell a > difference. But > >>> I don't see that this is will explicitly support carrying other things > than > >>> SFRAME. Because that means bringing in other consideration including > the > >>> security model for the E2E usage. > >> > >> Not sure if ignoring the reality on how the packetization format is > >> going to be used within insertable streams is a good idea. > > If you are passing other things than SFRAME you are also sending them > without > > end-to-end protection. Why is this happening, if the information was > intended > > for the SFU, then I think we should identify it as such, rather than > having the > > SFU have to hunt for it. If not, why are you sending it outside of the > SFRAME > > envelope? > > This is an application concern. I don't know why they would choose to do > it, but the fact is that they can do it. > > > > > >> > >>>>> Should the RTP payload format aspect of the charter be more explicit > >>>>> in that it needs to disucss the general model of how to use SFRAME > and > >>>>> how an application can use the facilities of RTP to get good > >>>>> performance from RTP mechanism like FEC and retransmission? > >>>> I don't think so, RTX and FEC frames MUST not be modified/affected by > >>>> SFRAME/the new packetization format, so they work out of the box. We > can > >>>> be explicit about that in the chapter as a requirement. > >>>> > >>> So I am not saying that RTX or FEC shall be modified. What I am saying > is > >>> that the SFRAME payload format should discuss the impact on the > performance > >>> of these functions depending on how you structure the SFRAMES across > SSRCs. > >>> The most simple example is the one where you put all layers for a video > >>> encoding in a single SSRC. In such a stream you loose a single RTP > packet > >>> between the transmitting end-point and the SFU. Now the SFU is only > >>> forwarding the base layer and not the enhancement layers. If base > layer and > >>> enhancement layer share RTP stream, the SFU can't determine if the > missing > >>> packet contains an base layer data or enhancement layer data. If the > base > >>> layer and enhancement layer would be on different SSRC, the fact that > there > >>> is a missing packet on the enhancement layer RTP stream means that the > SFU > >>> can ignore that as it anyway are not forwarding it. This same argument > can > >>> be applied between media sources. So how you map your application level > >>> structures onto RTP do matter for the resulting performance of RTP. > Putting > >>> all on a single SSRC is not a path to good transport performance. > >> > >> But that is already the case for SVC codecs, so there is nothing new to > >> specify in that regard. > > So for SVC and other scalable codes there exists options for how to do > this. And > > where you can write and RTP packetizer for SVC that takes basicaly a > mode and a > > layer structure configuration as input, that is not possible for SFRAME > as that > > information is not visible in the RTP payload information. Instead it > must come > > with each SFRAME to packetize how to map it to the RTP layer. > > > > Thus, in my view the SFRAME RTP Payload format needs to discuss the core > of > > these issues to make it clear to the application both its options as > well as > > point to the impact of those options. > > > This is already possible for any SVC codec re-using the Dependency > Descriptor header extension: > > https://aomediacodec.github.io/av1-rtp-spec/#a1-introduction > > If you read my example above, this information is know before the frame > goes to the Insertable Stream process, so it will be available for the > rtp packetization without going via SFRAME. > > > Best regards > > Sergio > > -- > Sframe mailing list > Sframe@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sframe > --000000000000095d4305af4a72c6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sergio said:=C2=A0
<= br>
"No one has spoken of putting everything on a single SSR= C, the new RTP
packetization would change the way the payload is packe= tized into the
RTP packets, but not the rtp/ssrc/mid mapping of the medi= a streams which
would be the same as if SFRAME is not in use. So th= is is a non-issue."

[BA] Right.=C2=A0 SFRAME = doesn't change the SSRC allocation scheme, nor does it prevent the SFU = from modifying the SSRC.=C2=A0
If the application was sending sim= ulcast with multiple SSRCs/RIDs, SFRAME won't affect that.=C2=A0 Simila= rly with SVC, if the application was sending all layers on a single SSRC, S= FRAME won't change that either.=C2=A0

"If= you read my example above, this information is known before the frame goes= to the Insertable Stream process, so it will be available for the RTP pack= etization without going via SFRAME."

[BA] As = you note, the metadata contains information about each frame, and the Inser= table Streams implementation assumes that the application modifications don= 't invalidate the=C2=A0metadata, which currently contains info such as = frame type, frameId, dependencies, width, height, LID, TID, SSRC and CSRCs.= =C2=A0

Most of the RTP header extension fields are= the same for each packet within a frame; only a few will change between pa= ckets within a frame, such as the Start and End bits.=C2=A0

<= /div>
The exercise is to make sure that the metadata is sufficient to e= nable the generic RTP packetizer to fill in all the RTP header and RTP head= er extension fields.=C2=A0 For the RTP header extension fields, this includ= es info such as Discardable, Switch, Required, Base Layer Sync, etc.=C2=A0 = Today it isn't clear to me that this info is completely determinable fr= om the Insertable Streams metadata.=C2=A0

Given th= at we don't have a lot of deployment of frame forwarding RTP header ext= ensions yet, it's probably best to avoid tying SFRAME=C2=A0 to any part= icular design.=C2=A0 For example, you wouldn't want a design that could= only function with the framemarking=C2=A0RTP header extension or the Gener= ic Frame Descriptor or the Dependency Descriptor, so that a new specificati= on is needed when the N+1 frame forwarding technology comes along.=C2=A0







On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 2:39 AM Sergio Garcia= Murillo <sergio.garc= ia.murillo@gmail.com> wrote:
On 14/09/2020 9:29, Magnus Westerlund wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Please see inline
>
> On Fri, 2020-09-11 at 17:32 +0200, Sergio Garcia Murillo wrote:
>> On 11/09/2020 13:19, Magnus Westerlund wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>>>> So do I assume correctly that the idea is that the app= lication layer
>>>>> using SFRAME if it haves multiple independent or sets = of dependent
>>>>> streams there will be no support for that aspect in SF= RAME layer?
>>>>> Instead it is up to the application to put such inform= ation to either
>>>>> put it inside the encapsualted part of the SFRAME or m= ap it to the
>>>>> lower transport layer, like to RTP SSRCs and extension= information.
>>>> If i understood you correctly, SFrame is kind of agnostic = to the media
>>>> streams. Currently it has a single global frame counter fo= r all the
>>> transport, so
>>>> the number of streams/dependency between them is not known= /needed
>>>> by SFrame.
>>> Yes, and when using a multi-stream application with layered en= coding being
>>> protected by SFRAME and transported over RTP with repair funct= ions the high
>>> layer application will need to have a model for how it maps in= dividual
>>> SFRAMEs to RTP layer functions to enable them to do their work= . You get a
>>> very limited functionality if in an SFU system tries to send a= ll over a
>>> single RTP SSRC. So this becomes a discussion in the RTP Paylo= ad format
>>> context when carrying SFRAMEs.
>>
>> I don't really understand your point, let's put an example= vp9 svc.
>>
>> Chrome will encode each picture from the video stream and pass it = to the
>> vp9 svc encoder. The encoder will produce n-frames (one per spatia= l
>> layer) for a given picture.
>>
>> Chrome will get each frame with its metadata (spatial/layer id + l= ayer
>> structure info + previous frame dependencies + future frame depenc= ies)
>> and pass it over to the insertable streams.
>>
>> The payload will go to javascript, in where SFRAME will encrypt it= and
>> returned as a binary blob.
>>
>> The browser will get the binary blob, packetize it in several rtp<= br> >> packets according to the new packetization format and add the meta= data
>> as a header extension.
>>
>> Is this process what you are describing or is there anything missi= ng?
>>
> Then the client will send these RTP packets to an SFU that will need t= o make
> decision on which of the packets to forward for which layers to a part= icular
> receiver. To be able to do this there are first the aspect of that the= meta data
> needs to be included so that the SFU can make decision based on the pa= ckets it
> recieves. In RTP context this likely are a more generic structure like= the RTP
> header extension for Frame marking (draft-ietf-avtext-framemarking). >
> For packet it doesn't receive it lacks the meta data. Thus, for a = more efficient
> repair of packets that are missing and to repair only packets that the= SFU
> actually needs, then you actually have to map the layered structure in= to RTP
> level structures so that the SFU can determine that the missing packet= belongs
> to a layer that it actually intends to forward. Putting everything in = a single
> SSRC requires the SFU to repair all losses independent of it needing t= he packet
> or not.
>
> A even more extreme example is if the client has 3 video cameras and p= roduce 3
> video encodings. In the SFRAME context it is possible to take the vide= o frames
> from all these threee encodings and put them in a single RTP stream (S= SRC) with
> SFRAMEs from that end-point. However, that would force your meta data = to contain
> also source identification rather than to using different SSRCs. Putti= ng
> multiple encoding on an single RTP stream would deprive the SFU of the=
> possibility to do rate control per encoding (RFC 5104 - TMMBR) as well= as pause
> streams it doesn't forward at all (RFC 7728 - Stream PAUSE) becaus= e all the
> existing RTP mechanism that are included in WebRTC works on the RTP st= reams, not
> sub-streams that doesn't have an identifier in the RTP layer. In a= ddition to
> having to repair any loss for the aggregated stream of the three encod= ings.

No one has spoken of putting every on a single SSRC, the new rtp
packetization would change the way the payload is packetized into the
RTP packets, but not the rtp/ssrc/mid mapping of the media streams which would be the same as if not SFRAME is use. So this is a non-issue.


>
>>>>>> However, if the encrypted output is going to be tr= ansmitted over RTP
>>>>>> using a new packetization format, we need to addre= ss how to negotiate
>>>>>> that in the SDP.
>>>>> Good
>>>>>
>>>>>> Note that this new packetization format will not o= nly be alid for
>>>>>> transporting encrypted frames (SFrame or not) but = even any other
>>>>>> audio/video frames.
>>>>> I understand the potential exists. However, the recomm= endation for RTP
>>>>> has been to try to consider Application Level Framing.= In the case of
>>>>> SFRAME that consideration moves up above SFRAME in the= choice of how
>>>>> data is split into SFRAMEs. However, having an RTP pay= laod format for
>>>>> SFRAME, then that should carry SFRAMEs. If you starts = putting in other
>>>>> binary objects into it, then you create a new demultip= lexing point for
>>>>> format between the RTP payload format and the SFRAME p= rocessing. That
>>>> appears unmotivated.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Note that SFRAME is not the only encryption possible with = w3c insertable
>>>> streams, it is up to the application to define its own cry= pto if they
>>> want. So
>>>> the payload must be able to transport non-SFRAME opaque bl= obs.
>>> So I would consider this a misuse of the RTP payload format. T= he media type
>>> will be for SFRAMEs. I understand that you might not be able t= o prevent this
>>> in WebRTC. However, from an interoperability point of view you= will be
>>> stating that this is SFRAMEs. RTP will not be able to tell a d= ifference. But
>>> I don't see that this is will explicitly support carrying = other things than
>>> SFRAME. Because that means bringing in other consideration inc= luding the
>>> security model for the E2E usage.
>>
>> Not sure if ignoring the reality on how the packetization format i= s
>> going to be used within insertable streams is a good idea.
> If you are passing other things than SFRAME you are also sending them = without
> end-to-end protection. Why is this happening, if the information was i= ntended
> for the SFU, then I think we should identify it as such, rather than h= aving the
> SFU have to hunt for it. If not, why are you sending it outside of the= SFRAME
> envelope?

This is an application concern. I don't know why they would choose to d= o
it, but the fact is that they can do it.


>
>>
>>>>> Should the RTP payload format aspect of the charter be= more explicit
>>>>> in that it needs to disucss the general model of how t= o use SFRAME and
>>>>> how an application can use the facilities of RTP to ge= t good
>>>>> performance from RTP mechanism like FEC and retransmis= sion?
>>>> I don't think so, RTX and FEC frames MUST not be modif= ied/affected by
>>>> SFRAME/the new packetization format, so they work out of t= he box. We can
>>>> be explicit about that in the chapter as a requirement. >>>>
>>> So I am not saying that RTX or FEC shall be modified. What I a= m saying is
>>> that the SFRAME payload format should discuss the impact on th= e performance
>>> of these functions depending on how you structure the SFRAMES = across SSRCs.
>>> The most simple example is the one where you put all layers fo= r a video
>>> encoding in a single SSRC. In such a stream you loose a single= RTP packet
>>> between the transmitting end-point and the SFU. Now the SFU is= only
>>> forwarding the base layer and not the enhancement layers. If b= ase layer and
>>> enhancement layer share RTP stream, the SFU can't determin= e if the missing
>>> packet contains an base layer data or enhancement layer data. = If the base
>>> layer and enhancement layer would be on different SSRC, the fa= ct that there
>>> is a missing packet on the enhancement layer RTP stream means = that the SFU
>>> can ignore that as it anyway are not forwarding it. This same = argument can
>>> be applied between media sources. So how you map your applicat= ion level
>>> structures onto RTP do matter for the resulting performance of= RTP. Putting
>>> all on a single SSRC is not a path to good transport performan= ce.
>>
>> But that is already the case for SVC codecs, so there is nothing n= ew to
>> specify in that regard.
> So for SVC and other scalable codes there exists options for how to do= this. And
> where you can write and RTP packetizer for SVC that takes basicaly a m= ode and a
> layer structure configuration as input, that is not possible for SFRAM= E as that
> information is not visible in the RTP payload information. Instead it = must come
> with each SFRAME to packetize how to map it to the RTP layer.
>
> Thus, in my view the SFRAME RTP Payload format needs to discuss the co= re of
> these issues to make it clear to the application both its options as w= ell as
> point to the impact of those options.


This is already possible for any SVC codec re-using the Dependency
Descriptor header extension:

https://aomediacodec.github.io/av1-rtp-s= pec/#a1-introduction

If you read my example above, this information is know before the frame goes to the Insertable Stream process, so it will be available for the
rtp packetization without going via SFRAME.


Best regards

Sergio

--
Sframe mailing list
Sframe@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sframe
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[79.108.125.160]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id 59sm22398807wro.82.2020.09.14.12.43.10 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 14 Sep 2020 12:43:10 -0700 (PDT) To: Bernard Aboba Cc: Magnus Westerlund , "rlb@ipv.sx" , "magnus.westerlund=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org" , "sergio.garcia.murillo@cosmosoftware.io" , "sframe-chairs@ietf.org" , "dispatch@ietf.org" , "iesg@ietf.org" , "sframe@ietf.org" References: <159949693494.2875.16993532753477402380@ietfa.amsl.com> <5c6c96621b29ebf4b1f84e53ae3a414c9d0ec3a5.camel@ericsson.com> <05085c6c-0c30-a407-8f41-b6c9be8100bc@gmail.com> <49b13e5efa0b2ac0a7b09842dbce8793dfcf6667.camel@ericsson.com> From: Sergio Garcia Murillo Message-ID: <10062d18-4e6b-fd76-eabd-9a746a7812fd@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2020 21:43:09 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Sframe] Magnus Westerlund's Block on charter-ietf-sframe-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2020 19:43:15 -0000 On 14/09/2020 20:45, Bernard Aboba wrote: > > Given that we don't have a lot of deployment of frame forwarding RTP > header extensions yet, it's probably best to avoid tying SFRAME  to > any particular design.  For example, you wouldn't want a design that > could only function with the framemarking RTP header extension or the > Generic Frame Descriptor or the Dependency Descriptor, so that a new > specification is needed when the N+1 frame forwarding technology comes > along. > I agree. Best regards Sergio From nobody Mon Sep 14 22:21:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 292C83A0DDF for ; Mon, 14 Sep 2020 22:20:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6E8Z77siL_X0 for ; Mon, 14 Sep 2020 22:20:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ua1-x92a.google.com (mail-ua1-x92a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::92a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A11593A0DE4 for ; Mon, 14 Sep 2020 22:20:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ua1-x92a.google.com with SMTP id u14so635631uaq.1 for ; Mon, 14 Sep 2020 22:20:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=edeum7ImTvQe/ikyEGqTL3MzEyMobbgtQHRnuXVCFlM=; b=Q2BRHCwVIbfFSe74XNzM08vk2PZA8mjrHiDizIvsX7Q8Mb5UdYbMKWF0QoJG+BWO+x XH5w2o/LcC176uZ2T8YBihkBt8fQAz3N7+BwugaUn16Kxa5lZEqT4lwImSLuUkYZEOXQ 3kbCerGtYeXkqREVsGaKPXe/XPX91gBSbAcQ0uxbphDCCbAww5MED2kI06329dW7Tgz6 ypn2+/6qGBRS1kgASqql6LbXTRxRHHGwQH/pNmushT5N+dwSosnHXCpMt5rwAyeytAbm DCHAKi6Ddgpo+wE/rNYgsgvG30UPisABlo4lpbYxCz+hZxuq/VfFshNvJLQOTdBKVeUn ghvA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=edeum7ImTvQe/ikyEGqTL3MzEyMobbgtQHRnuXVCFlM=; b=qv8TMC/6ry+75sBxE6iT9sLForpLY9vT6HLxPsyvHfFr2rHorfQIvOe3KASLf86d82 YZ1Usl/j2pIGacwfNNS8YbGn2iLyPnYh4O48AkkgFIlXsvLQ/t2b/nuAcwqQ+3uIJMVC 2Vzael8XBMzP3izJ60+DxQcKylGjQvK8CzWcVQ3WiLsYU7E7HB4PqJ/Az/8uVUlUEm4Q MlvpzEhcudqsIuZIsWuFcASif/OebeEdvwilyO+KSxM3d1E0VJTwCCkr0SizYGzRxTz6 d+KJeGqxa4ZJuWYbZUcbmVnHaZNza942qtQk0PxXIw4PVDcXlaVEDBQrAuDDDD6FqDej 4AfQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Ch0J0nybp3UH5XHzq8tuUCzM5T5ptAJ3LFCx+oazZZCa1ZRe6 XhQsuQuE6b8zNfq4oyeSUWWW6fwBEMsiH924rbuC X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzAcfYQeQh4gOZMZTIJM+EQrpwz/Sje/GYZ1wm+klt5bbvF5FEsB2XmqnuElfnvjB8Y3jYGgosUY/qIs0zyIy4= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:20b6:: with SMTP id y22mr8739939ual.30.1600147243122; Mon, 14 Sep 2020 22:20:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Emad Omara Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2020 22:20:30 -0700 Message-ID: To: Richard Barnes Cc: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" , DISPATCH , sframe@ietf.org, The IESG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000004413305af535040" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] =?utf-8?q?=5BSframe=5D_=C3=89ric_Vyncke=27s_Block_on_?= =?utf-8?q?charter-ietf-sframe-00-00?= X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2020 05:20:46 -0000 --00000000000004413305af535040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Eric, Did Richard's responses address your concerns? Please let us know if you have more questions or concerns. Emad On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 7:28 AM Richard Barnes wrote: > Hi =C3=89ric, > > For some reason, your Block didn't get sent to the relevant mailing lists= , > so I'm crafting my own reply :) > > - 'Selection among multiple encryption keys' should there be a way to use >> different encryption algorithm as well with the encapsulation (I noted t= hat >> this bullet is explicitly for inside a session)? >> > > No. The assumption is that the algorithm is fixed for a given flow, but > there may be multiple keys (e.g., for different senders), and of course, > each encrypted unit needs a different nonce. We could add some text to > clarify this if you think it's really necessary, but this seems like a > finer level of granularity than is needed in a charter. > > >> - like Magnus, I find "Information to form a unique nonce" pretty vague >> and is it 'nonce' or more 'initialization vector' ? >> > > I've revised to be clear that the encapsulation has a standard nonce > formation algorithm, and the wire format provides the input to it. The > word "nonce" is standard here (see > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5116#section-2.1) > > >> - 'This working group will not specify the signaling required to >> configure SFrame encryption", it is unclear to me whether the WG will >> specify a control channel to negotiate keys and crypto algorithms as the >> current sentence appears more generic configuration (e.g., supported cry= pto >> algorithms) >> > > No, the WG will not specify a control channel. That is something the > application will have to provide. > > >> - only one milestone ? There is nothing about the RTP mapping document >> that is mentioned in the charter text >> > > Yep. Just one thing, the encapsulation. The MLS mapping and RTP > considerations should both be small enough to be sections in that documen= t. > > --Richard > > > -- > Sframe mailing list > Sframe@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sframe > --00000000000004413305af535040 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Eric,

Did Richard's responses ad= dress your concerns? Please let us know if you have more questions or conce= rns.

Emad

On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 7:28 AM Ric= hard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx> wrote:
=
Hi =C3=89ric,

For some reason, your Block didn&= #39;t get sent to the relevant mailing lists, so I'm crafting my own re= ply :)

- 'Selection among multiple encryption keys' should there be= a way to use different encryption algorithm as well with the encapsulation= (I noted that this bullet is explicitly for inside a session)?

No.=C2=A0 The assumption is that the algorithm is = fixed for a given flow, but there may be multiple keys (e.g., for different= senders), and of course, each encrypted unit needs a different nonce.=C2= =A0 We could add some text to clarify this if you think it's really nec= essary, but this seems like a finer level of granularity than is needed in = a charter.
=C2=A0
- like Magnus, I find "Information to form a unique nonce&= quot; pretty vague and is it 'nonce' or more 'initialization ve= ctor' ?

I've revised to be clea= r that the encapsulation has a standard nonce formation algorithm, and the = wire format provides the input to it.=C2=A0 The word "nonce" is s= tandard here (see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5116#section-2.1)
=C2=A0
- &#= 39;This working group will not specify the signaling required to configure = SFrame encryption", it is unclear to me whether the WG will specify a = control channel to negotiate keys and crypto algorithms as the current sent= ence appears more generic configuration (e.g., supported crypto algorithms)=

No, the WG will not specify a control = channel.=C2=A0 That is something the application will have to provide.
<= /div>
=C2=A0
- o= nly one milestone ? There is nothing about the RTP mapping document that is= mentioned in the charter text

Yep.=C2= =A0 Just one thing, the encapsulation.=C2=A0 The MLS mapping and RTP consid= erations should both be small enough to be sections in that document.
=

--Richard


--
Sframe mailing list
Sframe@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sframe
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heekrddvhedunecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrh homhepmhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.7.30] (119-17-158-251.77119e.mel.static.aussiebb.net [119.17.158.251]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 1CC10328005E; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 02:01:10 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2020 16:01:08 +1000 Cc: DISPATCH list , jsonpath@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <40603C98-BE0D-4D3C-8170-FEA83494065F@mnot.net> References: <159467093010.19477.7181341398452455173@ietfa.amsl.com> <77B617C1-2148-4AE6-8428-DAD43D01FBC5@tzi.org> <3B8242C5-CACE-4E85-AF0A-A0C6F77A5EDB@tzi.org> <92BFBB4F-54B7-4E14-B322-A8B323631584@mnot.net> To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Jsonpath] draft-goessner-dispatch-jsonpath-00.txt X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2020 06:01:34 -0000 > On 15 Sep 2020, at 4:07 am, Murray S. Kucherawy = wrote: >=20 > On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 5:20 PM Mark Nottingham wrote: > Two nits in the charter text: >=20 > 1) I don't think it's necessary to compare this effort to JSONPointer; = they do different things (querying a document vs. referring to a = particular part of a document), just as XPath and XPointer do different = things. Each has a place, it's not a matter of compatibility or = supplanting JSONPath. So, 'Other, incompatible approaches exist... but = have not succeeded in supplanting JSONPath' should be removed. >=20 > I suggested including something like this to head off questions from = people who might wonder why we're standardizing another JSON referencing = method when JSON Pointer wasn't that long ago. Perhaps: >=20 > "This work is similar in concept to JSON Pointer (RFC xxxx) but = documents a mechanism that has broader support yet is in need of formal = standardization." >=20 > ? No - it's not similar in concept, they're separate things. If you really = wanted to mention JSON Pointer, you could say something like "Note that = while JSON Pointer (RFC xxxx) is already standardised, it is designed to = provide a reference to a single, specific part of a JSON document, = whereas JSONPath provides the ability to query a document and = potentially return multiple values." > 2) If this charter is predicated on adopting a specific draft, it = should be listed (e.g., as we did in = ). >=20 > I don't think there is such a draft yet, just the external source = material. We could say that the intent is to generate a draft from the = text found there. I see two: * https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-goessner-dispatch-jsonpath/ * https://jsonpath-standard.github.io/internet-draft/ Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Tue Sep 15 00:21:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC9A93A0D22 for ; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 00:21:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=textuality-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id be2xFuq0VaQk for ; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 00:21:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x129.google.com (mail-lf1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F02163A0D2A for ; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 00:21:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x129.google.com with SMTP id x77so2034547lfa.0 for ; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 00:21:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=textuality-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=qChalnVGMgd29MDegvY3LGrZ+f0ZLtUnjrkN3l1l+q8=; b=BsPpW8rsCL+KRzAvp33mYXmMAFTPXEoONxZ/H+FwRLvAmmf2gf1mmAof4cVCVhlizQ Guj8Eh8mTkDuy67orxWVe0yzbfX7QMLBhJAuWhN4zRSdb+KN8C8JyQ55+6ZL9JICDaaK mA6MwctEEHlMwRN38BtBOeAHlnQF3YhTKkJwOZGEzjOsTiXMCrsemoVVxcJxwoO7RJ/f DJ6RBujBVOaPc2cGYmBLJUur0UGKvzg0+eZEo6srZxLVQvYz77jJJmK744GOu5XNMEqN UhCdoVPgOiUD39SMu4sLMGMGd+jx0yX0s8kPq60dndZc60QcKVW3Be3sXOaNYUqL1XBf sYxg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qChalnVGMgd29MDegvY3LGrZ+f0ZLtUnjrkN3l1l+q8=; b=KLw8/zh8FxYyFAMOreriePTg9mDZn9JstDbQY4TG+w1B/LX8kdYR4su+fzIQGiYkiq gg69OTxXzVNRZtqOEqP5AWIZ1ZOY/2ThFYVaWF7NClqCU1lZ6OyDlMU871GmxXa3dyZ2 cFZ/AkQkZ53Iw368XXw8LA9HUHyCc4GHvkidV2JorJclbNGKWNeGoEKCMcjq7VzRT1ee /ZgeB4HK4zBAZQ3nH3uKva+woQIxGp3vQ+2YKS5T5CRiQQWC7k8JgA/R22EZ5o8nxMmP ukIReYYRUBYJpE8NGX0nJEA9R7SnaUkt2ANxaNmPF49A13WEDspxWsLteVZbA4UR6Ip6 u69A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533P4qmTY7IJP9ICg29cxpFmSuDfHfRgKvsbCJfKSvHuGiInZ/a3 yh5origuuPjs7UfmzdZBRe3Doao9uhXOf9gk+U+ynUq0E7ErrQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzExA5GvLMMBDVbDzirpSIGYzuXhL0cxSqMtkTuSF7TOyigVRXlqdQ9aLnUibPoJH+Zc0lz4aVsXv5wLRYM+cc= X-Received: by 2002:a19:c07:: with SMTP id 7mr4915208lfm.516.1600154476899; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 00:21:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <159467093010.19477.7181341398452455173@ietfa.amsl.com> <77B617C1-2148-4AE6-8428-DAD43D01FBC5@tzi.org> <3B8242C5-CACE-4E85-AF0A-A0C6F77A5EDB@tzi.org> <92BFBB4F-54B7-4E14-B322-A8B323631584@mnot.net> <40603C98-BE0D-4D3C-8170-FEA83494065F@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <40603C98-BE0D-4D3C-8170-FEA83494065F@mnot.net> From: Tim Bray Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2020 00:21:04 -0700 Message-ID: To: Mark Nottingham Cc: "Murray S. Kucherawy" , jsonpath@ietf.org, DISPATCH list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002e8fe605af54ffef" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Jsonpath] draft-goessner-dispatch-jsonpath-00.txt X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2020 07:21:21 -0000 --0000000000002e8fe605af54ffef Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Plan B: Don't mention JSONPointer at all. It's not what we want to work on, and the charter should be about what we want to work on. On Mon., Sep. 14, 2020, 11:02 p.m. Mark Nottingham, wrote: > > > > On 15 Sep 2020, at 4:07 am, Murray S. Kucherawy > wrote: > > > > On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 5:20 PM Mark Nottingham wrote: > > Two nits in the charter text: > > > > 1) I don't think it's necessary to compare this effort to JSONPointer; > they do different things (querying a document vs. referring to a particular > part of a document), just as XPath and XPointer do different things. Each > has a place, it's not a matter of compatibility or supplanting JSONPath. > So, 'Other, incompatible approaches exist... but have not succeeded in > supplanting JSONPath' should be removed. > > > > I suggested including something like this to head off questions from > people who might wonder why we're standardizing another JSON referencing > method when JSON Pointer wasn't that long ago. Perhaps: > > > > "This work is similar in concept to JSON Pointer (RFC xxxx) but > documents a mechanism that has broader support yet is in need of formal > standardization." > > > > ? > > No - it's not similar in concept, they're separate things. If you really > wanted to mention JSON Pointer, you could say something like "Note that > while JSON Pointer (RFC xxxx) is already standardised, it is designed to > provide a reference to a single, specific part of a JSON document, whereas > JSONPath provides the ability to query a document and potentially return > multiple values." > > > > 2) If this charter is predicated on adopting a specific draft, it should > be listed (e.g., as we did in < > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-quic/01/>). > > > > I don't think there is such a draft yet, just the external source > material. We could say that the intent is to generate a draft from the > text found there. > > I see two: > * https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-goessner-dispatch-jsonpath/ > * https://jsonpath-standard.github.io/internet-draft/ > > Cheers, > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > > -- > Jsonpath mailing list > Jsonpath@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/jsonpath > --0000000000002e8fe605af54ffef Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Plan B: Don't mention JSONPointer at all. It's no= t what we want to work on, and the charter should be about what we want to = work on.

On Mon., Sep. 14, 2020, 11:02 p.m. Mark Nottingham, <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:


> On 15 Sep 2020, at 4:07 am, Murray S. Kucherawy <superuser@gmail.c= om> wrote:
>
> On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 5:20 PM Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> w= rote:
> Two nits in the charter text:
>
> 1) I don't think it's necessary to compare this effort to JSON= Pointer; they do different things (querying a document vs. referring to a p= articular part of a document), just as XPath and XPointer do different thin= gs. Each has a place, it's not a matter of compatibility or supplanting= JSONPath. So, 'Other, incompatible approaches exist... but have not su= cceeded in supplanting JSONPath' should be removed.
>
> I suggested including something like this to head off questions from p= eople who might wonder why we're standardizing another JSON referencing= method when JSON Pointer wasn't that long ago.=C2=A0 Perhaps:
>
> "This work is similar in concept to JSON Pointer (RFC xxxx) but d= ocuments a mechanism that has broader support yet is in need of formal stan= dardization."
>
> ?

No - it's not similar in concept, they're separate things. If you r= eally wanted to mention JSON Pointer, you could say something like "No= te that while JSON Pointer (RFC xxxx) is already standardised, it is design= ed to provide a reference to a single, specific part of a JSON document, wh= ereas JSONPath provides the ability to query a document and potentially ret= urn multiple values."


> 2) If this charter is predicated on adopting a specific draft, it shou= ld be listed (e.g., as we did in <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-quic/01/>).
>
> I don't think there is such a draft yet, just the external source = material.=C2=A0 We could say that the intent is to generate a draft from th= e text found there.

I see two:
* https://datatracker.i= etf.org/doc/draft-goessner-dispatch-jsonpath/
* https://jsonpath-standard.github.io/= internet-draft/

Cheers,

--
Mark Nottingham=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.mnot.net/

--
Jsonpath mailing list
J= sonpath@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/jsonp= ath
--0000000000002e8fe605af54ffef-- From nobody Tue Sep 15 00:33:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD9CB3A0846; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 00:33:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g9M78EDjqO0K; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 00:33:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk1-xa30.google.com (mail-vk1-xa30.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BA7B3A082C; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 00:33:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk1-xa30.google.com with SMTP id c63so575997vkb.7; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 00:33:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=JwD9z2yZDn06QJhIwTpo2w2xWOi/n/FiBDgKd6Vz6uc=; b=tkn4eX+tntFQWogVw1iXsizoQvPuTG/nx4mScqZDwqqkJ3ADV2QDJCM6CHTN2b1nyk knw0sVFSbvY6S78Jgt4YbZWugqHKoxpdH3wJ0VUezm0pwLK+RZidJJlWDd0Webstin/f cPj1N5qkToo2GSfwMvqOFf10Nip9HLEJDi+TlP91pAy2tsye4/KQEwhcPcP30NBinp54 HPxq/Tdo3JIyYBkTpCwrDBxjkI9haag2tHz4ke8BGMJG6er0OivUOAjh96mLjfvmIqiU 9kKR5ZDEy+vP37huKeJiBXePueQ0NsdgRpbE4h5744kC0AeRkrmsK49QmnBMCx7Getg3 StGQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=JwD9z2yZDn06QJhIwTpo2w2xWOi/n/FiBDgKd6Vz6uc=; b=BgRj83Eavwt6ArW1J8+S7uAuaspeXrekVaef3k40vMaqtd9DzjrWOosfcqVtiTQ2cN kz8ctn8YuonbNJe+vRk2MpINIqTd9g6XM7DZ+LYpE3Ay2U92oh7mub7JwzyjpRwwWGJN 8U6K+SX1rq5TKIxFOyOP3sYswSI8sP1kjs3FTNqS2A8Y6qz0maCCI/CllDnsm9GJS62x eatVq02HlEOd8mIJB+XQQ78VUW9vyurIqDfNzBl89QMjdTlBHnIP3vesF8x0loOceoDo a2daRbZ9ZX0wsH7Hs6NOYZg6VrDkp9/4R7G8HI4B03TEX523uY2BlM7M4aIIzO+jZsrb AWcw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530BpX/gyUMOkB4Uya3uNK55ULKH9GJQBjQFAbRwy6PFQc9n2O2k k8oysgCKncC+tqoAO1Ve+o4UTir2I4zEOJcVwPOBwN7HVjrBoA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxI/BLbFC0x9ssJOFtZ1Tz/twx5YIKOH7vbKbkq59L4mhHaaXrKARCXZA3Lge3In/xcW0E1ANAco+u++BogI2o= X-Received: by 2002:a1f:8d8a:: with SMTP id p132mr292848vkd.14.1600155211021; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 00:33:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <159467093010.19477.7181341398452455173@ietfa.amsl.com> <77B617C1-2148-4AE6-8428-DAD43D01FBC5@tzi.org> <3B8242C5-CACE-4E85-AF0A-A0C6F77A5EDB@tzi.org> <92BFBB4F-54B7-4E14-B322-A8B323631584@mnot.net> <40603C98-BE0D-4D3C-8170-FEA83494065F@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <40603C98-BE0D-4D3C-8170-FEA83494065F@mnot.net> From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2020 00:33:20 -0700 Message-ID: To: Mark Nottingham Cc: DISPATCH list , jsonpath@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f0411c05af552a7a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Jsonpath] draft-goessner-dispatch-jsonpath-00.txt X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2020 07:33:34 -0000 --000000000000f0411c05af552a7a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 11:01 PM Mark Nottingham wrote: > No - it's not similar in concept, they're separate things. If you really > wanted to mention JSON Pointer, you could say something like "Note that > while JSON Pointer (RFC xxxx) is already standardised, it is designed to > provide a reference to a single, specific part of a JSON document, whereas > JSONPath provides the ability to query a document and potentially return > multiple values." > That's fine too. The reason I suggested this is because the abstract for JSON Pointer: JSON Pointer defines a string syntax for identifying a specific value within a JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) document. ...and the one for JSONPath that I remember seeing (which I can't find at the moment) seemed awfully similar, and I expected questions as a result, so I thought we might try being proactive. If consensus is to say nothing, I'll send it up that way instead. > 2) If this charter is predicated on adopting a specific draft, it should > be listed (e.g., as we did in < > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-quic/01/>). > > > > I don't think there is such a draft yet, just the external source > material. We could say that the intent is to generate a draft from the > text found there. > > I see two: > * https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-goessner-dispatch-jsonpath/ > * https://jsonpath-standard.github.io/internet-draft/ > Right you are. Yes, there should be such a reference. -MSK --000000000000f0411c05af552a7a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 11:01 PM Mark Not= tingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:
No - it's not similar in concept, they're separate thing= s. If you really wanted to mention JSON Pointer, you could say something li= ke "Note that while JSON Pointer (RFC xxxx) is already standardised, i= t is designed to provide a reference to a single, specific part of a JSON d= ocument, whereas JSONPath provides the ability to query a document and pote= ntially return multiple values."

T= hat's fine too.=C2=A0 The reason I suggested this is because the abstra= ct for JSON Pointer:

   JSON Pointer defines a string syntax fo=
r identifying a specific value
   within a JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) document.

<=
span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif">...and the one for JSONPath tha=
t I remember seeing (which I can't find at the moment) seemed awfully s=
imilar, and I expected questions as a result, so I thought we might try bei=
ng proactive.
If consensus is to say nothing, I'll send it up that way instead.<=
br>
> 2) If this charter is predicated on adopting a specific draft, it shou= ld be listed (e.g., as we did in <https://d= atatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-quic/01/>).
>
> I don't think there is such a draft yet, just the external source = material.=C2=A0 We could say that the intent is to generate a draft from th= e text found there.

I see two:
* https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc= /draft-goessner-dispatch-jsonpath/
* https://jsonpath-standard.github.io/internet-dr= aft/

Right you are.=C2=A0 Yes, ther= e should be such a reference.

-MSK
=
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QU1FIFdHIGNoYXJ0ZXIgdGhhdCBBVlRDT1JFDQpXRyB3aWxsIGJlIHRoZSBwbGFjZSB0byBkbyB0 aGUgd29yayBvbiB0aGUgUlRQIFBheWxvYWQgZm9ybWF0IGFuZCB0aGUgV0dzIHdpbGwNCmNvbGFi b3JhdGUgb24gdGhpcy4gDQogDQpDaGVlcnMNCg0KTWFnbnVzIFdlc3Rlcmx1bmQgDQoNCg0KLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLQ0KTmV0d29ya3MsIEVyaWNzc29uIFJlc2VhcmNoDQotLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tDQpF cmljc3NvbiBBQiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgfCBNb2JpbGUgKzQ2IDczIDA5NDkwNzkNClRvcnNo YW1uc2dhdGFuIDIzICAgICAgICAgICB8DQpTRS0xNjQgODAgU3RvY2tob2xtLCBTd2VkZW4gfCBt YWlsdG86IG1hZ251cy53ZXN0ZXJsdW5kQGVyaWNzc29uLmNvbQ0KLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLQ0KDQoN Cg== From nobody Tue Sep 22 13:55:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EEE73A0838; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 13:55:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, MISSING_HEADERS=1.021, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JfQibbJJG5lk; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 13:55:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp01.icann.org (smtp01.icann.org [192.0.33.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 361123A046D; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 13:55:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from request4.lax.icann.org (request1.lax.icann.org [10.32.11.221]) by smtp01.icann.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B197E05F6; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 20:55:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: by request4.lax.icann.org (Postfix, from userid 48) id 086A520356; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 20:55:38 +0000 (UTC) RT-Owner: sabrina.tanamal From: "Sabrina Tanamal via RT" Reply-To: drafts-lastcall@iana.org In-Reply-To: <159855628289.21847.11968431519980055634@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <159855628289.21847.11968431519980055634@ietfa.amsl.com> Message-ID: X-RT-Loop-Prevention: IANA X-RT-Ticket: IANA #1176833 X-Managed-BY: RT 4.4.3 (http://www.bestpractical.com/rt/) X-RT-Originator: sabrina.tanamal@icann.org CC: iesg@ietf.org, ted.ietf@gmail.com, superuser@gmail.com, barryleiba@computer.org, barryleiba@gmail.com, spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com, dispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-RT-Original-Encoding: utf-8 Precedence: bulk Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2020 20:55:37 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: [dispatch] [IANA #1176833] Last Call: (Updated registration rules for URI.ARPA) to Best Current Practice X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2020 20:55:39 -0000 (BEGIN IANA COMMENTS) IESG/Authors/WG Chairs: The IANA Functions Operator has completed its review of draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03. If any part of this review is inaccurate, please let us know. The IANA Functions Operator understands that, upon approval of this document, there is a single action which we must complete. IANA understands that the rules for registration in the .uri.arpa zone were established by RFC3405. That document says: "In order to be inserted into the URI.ARPA zone, the subsequent URI scheme MUST be registered under the IETF URI tree. The requirements for this tree are specified in BCP35." IANA understands that [ RFC-to-be ] removes this normative requirement and that the new requirement is: "All registrations in URI.ARPA MUST now be for schemes which are permanent registrations, as they are described in BCP 35." On the .ARPA Zone Management page located at: https://www.iana.org/domains/arpa IANA Question --> RFC3405 is listed as the reference for the .uri.arpa zone. Upon approval of this document, should this reference be replaced with [ RFC-to-be ] or should this document be added as an additional reference? The IANA Functions Operator understands that this is the only action required to be completed upon approval of this document. Note: The actions requested in this document will not be completed until the document has been approved for publication as an RFC. This message is meant only to confirm the list of actions that will be performed. Thank you, Sabrina Tanamal Senior IANA Services Specialist (END IANA COMMENTS) From nobody Tue Sep 22 14:05:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietf.org Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0EE23A08F5; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 14:05:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: , , , X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.17.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <160080872138.16029.1740913052538788641@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2020 14:05:21 -0700 From: IETF Secretariat Archived-At: Subject: [dispatch] Datatracker State Update Notice: X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2020 21:05:22 -0000 IANA review state changed to "IANA - Not OK" Datatracker URL: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update/ From nobody Tue Sep 22 14:07:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61B873A19C3; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 14:07:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.402 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.402 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.248, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PfOqcRWlyG7P; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 14:07:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-f44.google.com (mail-vs1-f44.google.com [209.85.217.44]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC1BA3A19CD; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 14:07:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-f44.google.com with SMTP id j185so11155590vsc.3; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 14:07:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=2dFpwxdBInhOYrYvjrWXfmVDmR9/IuObdoEiUzxW/vo=; b=aIbVZL/K8EGA/n/Uw/IdpnN1Kic/xfDN9l8/HMOe6UAu/STYb059H3kzcS8tqWKSrX wO8ek9n8bFkHLk5piBV8BbNyEI0CCo3ucdal0Aebkr04r1fuqgCH9bIjzt4oMFbQf2Hw A3txvcXOhcop7J15+1V1/zvHWXMWdqP9teq39LFAEhhmkj68z2UssVPACW138XJEX3wE 2HSQR1vHDx/UjcWjaprn15AYnn625lXWcDNFhUi40nMChFFvfDaWFTWD9l3k7jBjexob Ylhw3K2LU7YiQcFqWzPRY3c9I0Rl75X6mjfpkzcxtTsqmV8LpAwD1SE2fbDXSDNqOEoc tUCQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530YunH+TwU4N31K0aneWWsUrUohDAdic6Hgz9ldQH4xg8rSJU4q o9Uf/5z+Nacv3+E+GIFearJD17mkN1i6WuGxI2U= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyFdnYDtAbGpBKkGObRCxCnfnOWQz2/TthgkyRMjgZOhS04+CvLpgeNC7XZtEoBokd6awSc+QznREkLyAeTMOY= X-Received: by 2002:a67:8096:: with SMTP id b144mr3495156vsd.14.1600808836817; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 14:07:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <159855628289.21847.11968431519980055634@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Barry Leiba Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2020 17:07:05 -0400 Message-ID: To: Pearl Liang via RT Cc: IESG , Ted Hardie , Murray Kucherawy , Spencer Dawkins , DISPATCH Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [IANA #1176833] Last Call: (Updated registration rules for URI.ARPA) to Best Current Practice X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2020 21:07:20 -0000 Hi, Sabrina, > IANA understands that [ RFC-to-be ] removes this normative requirement and that the new requirement is: > > "All registrations in URI.ARPA MUST now be for schemes which are permanent registrations, as they are described in BCP 35." Correct. > IANA Question --> RFC3405 is listed as the reference for the .uri.arpa zone. Upon approval of this document, > should this reference be replaced with [ RFC-to-be ] or should this document be added as an additional reference? Additional, please. Barry From nobody Tue Sep 22 16:26:19 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 863FA3A011B; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 16:26:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SGB1XtLOm_zv; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 16:26:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x22a.google.com (mail-oi1-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A61FC3A097C; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 16:26:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x22a.google.com with SMTP id 26so14580020ois.5; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 16:26:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=nJ384p3/rgBBcI4DlB4ZVdGUCuZRUwzOLGX37bUedIQ=; b=HOudIGVt2qJJ9L6imVaW1U/J4ZzHNHJIFLhvU2Wz4CQb+R40wiQyra+JAJ//UCukmE QgpUE8dfxWo46bSpzcA+wdfDPECubSXI5ZiZpWsDEUwXYGpySwD8LDgVPYxgupm35hVJ MCUtU1Ilqvn25KEaLrSGvZL+GkcbccPOCIIu+WiOs+IX1otWACLsAr0QqViw59QIUMFf 5ENZqdO1iOvbbEVPxYT+6KBvWNqiq3lz3l5WZxWBcatEYaBtvVwBs6SksXoA7H4eEJVp dvQy10bTddqBoZN6ZpK4AyTvtouDhj5WzdwpmpNhFBoVsDH6DxDtkWJGxX2TzRUaSZ4q OJuA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=nJ384p3/rgBBcI4DlB4ZVdGUCuZRUwzOLGX37bUedIQ=; b=FiBaBar+xbnvkyFzg/jJHEsaWSb1swfCbMv/duIsC4aJR50EDQFRndQ+RqcaQTKSUq XnvyArD9mUgASbq/onQIlO8gIQGdvUuf9PYikUIZZi20jccKiVCFY3TSG0ap/JkbHfwb EHcrZ4A8S4ANQwzzY3yQcC+dhGikN+kpgTjJgjobduIXB9rSQs3/EnzYCx4Lg7WXkx09 33VAK1ojFrhidH0c/Ztm9K2LRXkPnpq1NIqYNUU4c5ATonyGl1MO9RyCCSN22sv4gfYo C06qWNzhHxrYI9CsT0vmAAeBLu/snyyPE8/FH6I3w9YzMyZqqK1T1Wjeb60GJwpl+c9y ohLQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5326WVBeCOn0p6SAb98pj964Ro87TubLEuYEnp0oSXM4FoR+M6oo hls7av2zbGKbe37MqR3ve78d3n3rZgY5uzS+78E= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzxIXBCBCNNGmPdB6LwUu8tI+Brf6Davr3znPwJXv1XizDkPDBwg3RlLev+Tv0TwU9NY8utNJaMntqcIGLRHbg= X-Received: by 2002:aca:ec50:: with SMTP id k77mr4086032oih.35.1600817159902; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 16:25:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <159855628289.21847.11968431519980055634@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Ted Hardie Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2020 16:25:33 -0700 Message-ID: To: Barry Leiba Cc: Pearl Liang via RT , IESG , Murray Kucherawy , Spencer Dawkins , DISPATCH Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002a978f05afef4a3f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [IANA #1176833] Last Call: (Updated registration rules for URI.ARPA) to Best Current Practice X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2020 23:26:15 -0000 --0000000000002a978f05afef4a3f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Not that you need this, but I agree with Barry. It should be additional, because it is written as a patch to the original, not a replacement. regards, Ted On Tue, Sep 22, 2020 at 2:07 PM Barry Leiba wrote: > Hi, Sabrina, > > > IANA understands that [ RFC-to-be ] removes this normative requirement > and that the new requirement is: > > > > "All registrations in URI.ARPA MUST now be for schemes which are > permanent registrations, as they are described in BCP 35." > > Correct. > > > IANA Question --> RFC3405 is listed as the reference for the .uri.arpa > zone. Upon approval of this document, > > should this reference be replaced with [ RFC-to-be ] or should this > document be added as an additional reference? > > Additional, please. > > Barry > --0000000000002a978f05afef4a3f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Not that you need this, but I agree with Barry.=C2=A0= It should be additional, because it is written as a patch to the original,= not a replacement.

regards,

<= div>Ted

On Tue, Sep 22, 2020 at 2:07 PM Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org> wrote:
=
Hi, Sabrina,

> IANA understands that [ RFC-to-be ] removes this normative requirement= and that the new requirement is:
>
> "All registrations in URI.ARPA MUST now be for schemes which are = permanent registrations, as they are described in BCP 35."

Correct.

> IANA Question --> RFC3405 is listed as the reference for the .uri.a= rpa zone. Upon approval of this document,
> should this reference be replaced with [ RFC-to-be ] or should this do= cument be added as an additional reference?

Additional, please.

Barry
--0000000000002a978f05afef4a3f-- From nobody Thu Sep 24 00:23:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietf.org Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB1493A084A; Thu, 24 Sep 2020 00:23:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: DraftTracker Mail System To: , , , Cc: iesg-secretary@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.17.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <160093220172.13171.17878456087101220987@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2020 00:23:21 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [dispatch] Last Call Expired: X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2020 07:23:22 -0000 Please DO NOT reply to this email. I-D: Datatracker URL: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update/ IETF Last Call has ended, and the state has been changed to Waiting for AD Go-Ahead. From nobody Thu Sep 24 04:46:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietf.org Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 528113A09E0; Thu, 24 Sep 2020 04:46:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: , , , , , X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.17.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <160094796425.27163.5272519821667915712@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2020 04:46:04 -0700 From: IETF Secretariat Archived-At: Subject: [dispatch] Datatracker State Update Notice: X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2020 11:46:04 -0000 IESG state changed: New State: IESG Evaluation (The previous state was Waiting for AD Go-Ahead) Datatracker URL: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update/ From nobody Thu Sep 24 06:01:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietf.org Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D44553A0989; Thu, 24 Sep 2020 06:01:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: , , , , "The IESG" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.17.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <160095247646.29296.13727883210987884097@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2020 06:01:16 -0700 From: IETF Secretariat Archived-At: Subject: [dispatch] Telechat update notice: X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2020 13:01:17 -0000 Placed on agenda for telechat - 2020-10-08 Datatracker URL: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update/ From nobody Mon Sep 28 15:30:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03D923A143D for ; 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Mon, 28 Sep 2020 15:30:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <159949693494.2875.16993532753477402380@ietfa.amsl.com> <5c6c96621b29ebf4b1f84e53ae3a414c9d0ec3a5.camel@ericsson.com> <05085c6c-0c30-a407-8f41-b6c9be8100bc@gmail.com> <49b13e5efa0b2ac0a7b09842dbce8793dfcf6667.camel@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: From: Emad Omara Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2020 15:30:01 -0700 Message-ID: To: Magnus Westerlund Cc: "sergio.garcia.murillo@cosmosoftware.io" , "rlb@ipv.sx" , "sergio.garcia.murillo@gmail.com" , "dispatch@ietf.org" , "iesg@ietf.org" , "sframe@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b52aa205b0673573" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Sframe] Magnus Westerlund's Block on charter-ietf-sframe-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2020 22:30:16 -0000 --000000000000b52aa205b0673573 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Magnus, Jumping late to this thread, just want to summarize the discussion and proposed changes to make sure we are all on the same page. 1. AVTCORE is the place to address any WebRTC changes (ie payload type, frame metadata ,packetization, etc) 2. SFrame charter needs to be changed to explicitly mention #1 3. SFrame doc needs to describe the integration point and changes with WebRTC in high level language as a guidance for the ATCORE work (I suggest doing so in a separate draft) Would these address your concerns so we can move forward? Please let me know if there is anything else I missed. Thanks Emad On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 2:47 AM Magnus Westerlund wrote: > On Mon, 2020-09-14 at 19:27 +0200, Sergio Garcia Murillo wrote: > > On 14/09/2020 16:12, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > > > Sergio, > > > > > > Having 20 years of experience with RTP payload format designs some of > your > > > formulations made me a bit worried. After this discussion I think we > are > > > much > > > closer on a common understanding of the high level functionality > necessary. > > > > > > However, there will be questions about where we document that > interaction > > > and > > > what dependencies that do exist on other specificaitons for scalable > codecs > > > that > > > are generic and is desirable to require from RTP middleboxes. In > addition > > > even > > > without RTP there will be need from the application to consider how it > can > > > utilize one SFRAME key and its IVs to carry multiple application > sub-streams > > > and > > > the need to expose that to lower layer transport function to achiveve > > > performance goals. > > > > What I fail to understand is the nature of your concerns and how should > we > > address them on the charter: > > Is it something that we plan to do that is not covered in the charter? > > Is it something that we don't plan to do but the charter is wide enough > to > > allow it? > > Is it something that we plan to do and it is covered in the charter but > you > > don't agree to it? > > Is it something that we don't plan to do and is neither covered by the > charter > > and we should add it? > > I think with the resolution of the RTP payload format there is only the > question > if there needs to exist an informational discussion towards those who > intended > to apply the SFRAME format in their application the difference between > application streams or strucutres and the SFRAME sequence and their keys > and the > requirement that puts on meta data and mapping to lower layer transport > depending on application. I do note that a pure store and forward > application > like email has its set of needs that is quite different from real-time > media. > > I personally would like to see it written into the charter that this needs > to be > considered. In the current draft update I think there wording that would > imply > that this needs to happen. However, depending on how the below change are > done > this might get lost. > > An alternative for the WG to actually ensure that they have a solid > description > and components that solve the issue would be to write an non-standard > description of how SFRAME would be used in WebRTC multi-media multi-party > with > SFU conference application and what is needed to make it work. There one > could > discuss the WebRTC applications control over how the media streams SFRAME > encapsualtion and mapping onto RTP streams impact the underlying repair > tools > and SFUs of WebRTC conference application. > > If things are done correctly all the components, SFRAME, RTP Payload > format, and > meta deta transport would exist in specifications of their own, so that it > could > be that high level description of how an WebRTC application maker would > get this > to work avoiding those pitfalls that will exist. > > > > > > So I think some clarification on the RTP payload format work, and it > that is > > > going to happen in the SFRAME WG. If happening in SFRAME WG I would > like to > > > have > > > a joint WG Last call with AVTCORE WG. > > > > I raised that question already a couple of times. I am not sure what is > the > > role of the SFRAME WG regarding specifying a new RTP codec-agnostic > payload. > > IMHO this WG should collect the requirements, match them to current > > specifications, and if anything is missing, liaise with the appropriate > groups > > in order to produce the specs based on our requirements. > > Fine, lets make it explicit in a paragraph in the SFRAME WG charter that > AVTCORE > WG will be the place to do the work on the RTP Payload format and the WGs > will > colaborate on this. > > Cheers > > Magnus Westerlund > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Networks, Ericsson Research > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > <+46%2073%20094%2090%2079> > Torshamnsgatan 23 | > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > -- > Sframe mailing list > Sframe@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sframe > --000000000000b52aa205b0673573 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi=C2=A0Magnus,

Jumping late to this th= read, just want to summarize the discussion and proposed changes to make su= re we are all on the same page.

  1. AVTCORE is= the place to address any WebRTC changes (ie payload type, frame metadata ,= packetization, etc)
  2. SFrame charter needs to be changed to explicitl= y mention #1
  3. SFrame doc needs to describe the integration point and= changes with WebRTC in high level language as a guidance for the ATCORE wo= rk (I suggest doing so in a separate draft)
Would these addre= ss your concerns so we can move=C2=A0forward? Please let me know if there i= s anything else I missed.

Thanks
E= mad


On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 2:47 AM Magnus Westerlund &= lt;magnus.westerlund=3D40e= ricsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
On Mon, 2020-09-14 at 19:27 +0200, Sergio Garcia = Murillo wrote:
> On 14/09/2020 16:12, Magnus Westerlund wrote:
> > Sergio,
> >
> > Having 20 years of experience with RTP payload format designs som= e of your
> > formulations made me a bit worried. After this discussion I think= we are
> > much
> > closer on a common understanding of the high level functionality = necessary.
> >
> > However, there will be questions about where we document that int= eraction
> > and
> > what dependencies that do exist on other specificaitons for scala= ble codecs
> > that
> > are generic and is desirable to require from RTP middleboxes. In = addition
> > even
> > without RTP there will be need from the application to consider h= ow it can
> > utilize one SFRAME key and its IVs to carry multiple application = sub-streams
> > and
> > the need to expose that to lower layer transport function to achi= veve
> > performance goals.
>
> What I fail to understand is the nature of your concerns and how shoul= d we
> address them on the charter:
> Is it something that we plan to do that is not covered in the charter?=
> Is it something that we don't plan to do but the charter is wide e= nough to
> allow it?
> Is it something that we plan to do and it is covered in the charter bu= t you
> don't agree to it?
> Is it something that we don't plan to do and is neither covered by= the charter
> and we should add it?

I think with the resolution of the RTP payload format there is only the que= stion
if there needs to exist an informational discussion towards those who inten= ded
to apply the SFRAME format in their application the difference between
application streams or strucutres and the SFRAME sequence and their keys an= d the
requirement that puts on meta data and mapping to lower layer transport
depending on application. I do note that a pure store and forward applicati= on
like email has its set of needs that is quite different from real-time medi= a.

I personally would like to see it written into the charter that this needs = to be
considered. In the current draft update I think there wording that would im= ply
that this needs to happen. However, depending on how the below change are d= one
this might get lost.

An alternative for the WG to actually ensure that they have a solid descrip= tion
and components that solve the issue would be to write an non-standard
description of how SFRAME would be used in WebRTC multi-media multi-party w= ith
SFU conference application=C2=A0 and what is needed to make it work. There = one could
discuss the WebRTC applications control over how the media streams SFRAME encapsualtion and mapping onto RTP streams impact the underlying repair too= ls
and SFUs of WebRTC conference application.

If things are done correctly all the components, SFRAME, RTP Payload format= , and
meta deta transport would exist in specifications of their own, so that it = could
be that high level description of how an WebRTC application maker would get= this
to work avoiding those pitfalls that will exist.

>
> > So I think some clarification on the RTP payload format work, and= it that is
> > going to happen in the SFRAME WG. If happening in SFRAME WG I wou= ld like to
> > have
> > a joint WG Last call with AVTCORE WG.
>
> I raised that question already a couple of times. I am not sure what i= s the
> role of the SFRAME WG regarding specifying a new RTP codec-agnostic pa= yload.
> IMHO this WG should collect the requirements, match them to current > specifications, and if anything is missing, liaise with the appropriat= e groups
> in order to produce the specs based on our=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0r= equirements.

Fine, lets make it explicit in a paragraph in the SFRAME WG charter that AV= TCORE
WG will be the place to do the work on the RTP Payload format and the WGs w= ill
colaborate on this.

Cheers

Magnus Westerlund


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Networks, Ericsson Research
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| = Mobile +46 73 0949079
Torshamnsgatan 23=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------


--
Sframe mailing list
Sframe@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sframe
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Tue, 29 Sep 2020 12:58:04 +0000 From: Magnus Westerlund To: "emadomara=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org" CC: "sframe@ietf.org" , "dispatch@ietf.org" , "iesg@ietf.org" , "sergio.garcia.murillo@cosmosoftware.io" , "rlb@ipv.sx" , "sergio.garcia.murillo@gmail.com" Thread-Topic: [Sframe] [dispatch] Magnus Westerlund's Block on charter-ietf-sframe-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHWleb0ZHKPZQLJ7Uiui6zCURAJGal/lISA Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2020 12:58:04 +0000 Message-ID: References: <159949693494.2875.16993532753477402380@ietfa.amsl.com> <5c6c96621b29ebf4b1f84e53ae3a414c9d0ec3a5.camel@ericsson.com> <05085c6c-0c30-a407-8f41-b6c9be8100bc@gmail.com> <49b13e5efa0b2ac0a7b09842dbce8793dfcf6667.camel@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: sv-SE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Evolution 3.28.5-0ubuntu0.18.04.2 authentication-results: dmarc.ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc.ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=ericsson.com; 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Tue, 29 Sep 2020 07:38:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <159949693494.2875.16993532753477402380@ietfa.amsl.com> <5c6c96621b29ebf4b1f84e53ae3a414c9d0ec3a5.camel@ericsson.com> <05085c6c-0c30-a407-8f41-b6c9be8100bc@gmail.com> <49b13e5efa0b2ac0a7b09842dbce8793dfcf6667.camel@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2020 07:37:49 -0700 Message-ID: To: Magnus Westerlund Cc: "emadomara=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org" , "dispatch@ietf.org" , "sframe@ietf.org" , "rlb@ipv.sx" , "sergio.garcia.murillo@gmail.com" , "iesg@ietf.org" , "sergio.garcia.murillo@cosmosoftware.io" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e5227c05b074ba39" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [Sframe] Magnus Westerlund's Block on charter-ietf-sframe-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2020 14:38:05 -0000 --000000000000e5227c05b074ba39 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 5:58 AM Magnus Westerlund wrote: > > Would these address your concerns so we can move forward? Please let me > know > > if there is anything else I missed. > > Yes, I belief so. > OK, then please let me know when the github version has been updated, and I'll copy it into the datatracker for the IESG to see. -MSK --000000000000e5227c05b074ba39 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 5:58 AM Magnus We= sterlund <magnus.westerlund=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
> Would t= hese address your concerns so we can move forward? Please let me know
> if there is anything else I missed.

Yes, I belief so.

OK, then please let = me know when the github version has been updated, and I'll copy it into= the datatracker for the IESG to see.

-MSK
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[79.108.125.160]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id t10sm1954314wmi.1.2020.09.30.03.24.49 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 30 Sep 2020 03:24:49 -0700 (PDT) To: "dispatch@ietf.org" Cc: Lorenzo Miniero , Alex Gouaillard From: Sergio Garcia Murillo Message-ID: <085505e3-9899-f817-b6df-db8022d52e26@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2020 12:24:48 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------E1FCA4B13834FB61010AAD57" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [dispatch] WHIP - WebRTC HTTP ingestion protocol X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2020 10:24:53 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E1FCA4B13834FB61010AAD57 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all! While WebRTC has been very successful in a wide range of scenarios, its adaption in the broadcasting/streaming industry is lagging behind. Currently there is no standard protocol (like SIP or RTSP) designed for ingesting media in a streaming service, and content providers still rely heavily on protocols like RTMP for it. These protocols are much older than WebRTC and lack by default some important security and resilience features provided by WebRTC with minimal delay. The media codecs used in older protocols do not always match those being used in WebRTC, mandating transcoding on the ingest node, introducing delay and degrading media quality. This transcoding step is always present in traditional streaming to support e.g. ABR, and comes at no cost. However webrtc implements client-side ABR, by means of simulcast and SVC codecs, which otherwise alleviate the need for server-side transcoding. Content protection and Privacy Enhancement can be achieve with End-to-End Encryption, which preclude any server-side media processing. We have been working on a proposal for a simple HTTP based protocol that will allow WebRTC endpoints to ingest content into streaming services and/or CDNs to fill this gap and facilitate deployment: * https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-murillo-whip-00 * https://github.com/murillo128/webrtc-http-ingest-protocol/ We have already implemented it on Janus and Medooze media servers: * https://www.meetecho.com/blog/whip-janus/ * https://medium.com/@medooze/whip-webrtc-meets-the-broadcasting-world-86772eba8ae7 And added support into a WebRTC version of OBS studio: * https://github.com/CoSMoSoftware/OBS-studio-webrtc/releases/tag/m84v23.2-RC2 We also plan to have an interop session on the next IETF hackhaton, that will allow to check the interoperability between different WebRTC implementations. What would be the best way of moving this forward? Obviously, any feedback will be very welcome. Best regards Sergio --------------E1FCA4B13834FB61010AAD57 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi all!


While WebRTC has been very successful in a wide range of scenarios, its adaption in the broadcasting/streaming industry is lagging behind. Currently there is no standard protocol (like SIP or RTSP) designed for ingesting media in a streaming service, and content providers still rely heavily on protocols like RTMP for it.

These protocols are much older than WebRTC and lack by default some important security and resilience features provided by WebRTC with minimal delay.

The media codecs used in older protocols do not always match those being used in WebRTC, mandating transcoding on the ingest node, introducing delay and degrading media quality. This transcoding step is always present in traditional streaming to support e.g. ABR, and comes at no cost. However webrtc implements client-side ABR, by means of simulcast and SVC codecs, which otherwise alleviate the need for server-side transcoding. Content protection and Privacy Enhancement can be achieve with End-to-End Encryption, which preclude any server-side media processing.

We have been working on a proposal for a simple HTTP based protocol that will allow WebRTC endpoints to ingest content into streaming services and/or CDNs to fill this gap and facilitate deployment:


We have already implemented it on Janus and Medooze media servers:


And added support into a WebRTC version of OBS studio:


We also plan to have an interop session on the next IETF hackhaton, that will allow to check the interoperability between different WebRTC implementations.


What would be the best way of moving this forward? Obviously, any feedback will be very welcome.


Best regards

Sergio



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