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Thu, 4 Mar 2021 18:18:18 +0000 From: Kirsty P To: "dispatch@ietf.org" CC: dispatch chairs Thread-Topic: IETF 110 DISPATCH Draft Agenda Thread-Index: AQHXC4PmW33ZuxFGgkO3HIlVRJNda6p0LLgj Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 18:18:18 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=ncsc.gov.uk; x-originating-ip: [20.49.216.120] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: e3c4e24b-9e71-4da8-a248-08d8df39e2ba x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: LO2P123MB4475: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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boundary="_000_LO2P123MB3599CF024C8F6BE19FE76B2DD7979LO2P123MB3599GBRP_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ncsc.gov.uk X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: LO2P123MB3599.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: e3c4e24b-9e71-4da8-a248-08d8df39e2ba X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 04 Mar 2021 18:18:18.1692 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 14aa5744-ece1-474e-a2d7-34f46dda64a1 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: WHEq0yVT1DO2OTyIEPP60WZTCeN2UDtvDt4zbACfQTOiOoAdFEOZozUrtTm3tL2qwdPgBGMbAjS+tEjFFT5FHw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: LO2P123MB4475 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] IETF 110 DISPATCH Draft Agenda X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2021 18:18:23 -0000 --_000_LO2P123MB3599CF024C8F6BE19FE76B2DD7979LO2P123MB3599GBRP_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, The dispatch agenda for IETF 110 has been updated with a couple of new item= s: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/agenda-110-dispatch/ It's going to be a packed session - so where you can, please read the draft= s and discuss on list ahead of the meeting to make the most of the time we = have. Kirsty & Patrick ________________________________ From: Kirsty P Sent: 25 February 2021 14:43 To: dispatch@ietf.org Cc: dispatch chairs Subject: IETF 110 DISPATCH Draft Agenda Hi dispatchers, Our draft agenda for IETF 110 is now up - please let the chairs know of any= corrections or omissions: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/110/materials/agenda-110-dispatch-00.t= xt We'll update the list if it's updated, but if you want to check for your ow= n peace of mind, you can always find the latest agenda at: https://datatrac= ker.ietf.org/doc/agenda-110-dispatch/ Kirsty & Patrick This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA)= and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer any FOIA q= ueries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk. All material is UK Crown Copyright =A9 --_000_LO2P123MB3599CF024C8F6BE19FE76B2DD7979LO2P123MB3599GBRP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

The dispatch agenda for IETF 110 has been updated with a couple of new item= s: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/agenda-110-disp= atch/

It's going to be a packed s= ession - so where you can, please read the drafts and discuss on list ahead= of the meeting to make the most of the time we have.

Kirsty & Patrick



From: Kirsty P <Kirsty.p= @ncsc.gov.uk>
Sent: 25 February 2021 14:43
To: dispatch@ietf.org <dispatch@ietf.org>
Cc: dispatch chairs <dispatch-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: IETF 110 DISPATCH Draft Agenda
 
Hi dispatchers,

Our draft agenda for IETF 110 is now up - please let the chairs know of any= corrections or omissions:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/110/materials/agenda-110-dispatch-00.t= xt

We'll update the list if it's updated, but if you want to check for your ow= n peace of mind, you can always find the latest agenda at: https://dat= atracker.ietf.org/doc/agenda-110-dispatch/

Kirsty & Patrick
This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA)= and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer any FOIA q= ueries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk. All material is UK Crown Copyright =A9
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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: five9.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DM6PR06MB4395.namprd06.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 03740042-9d8e-4c2a-b59e-08d8dffa7e70 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 05 Mar 2021 17:17:02.8159 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f6c5114f-7396-4a09-af1e-98ee46f99bdb X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: +ZXdYr6t9DXFI468NzrfSa/TVBjtZzpHXEy2HfO/XTz9DQqBNFuQhpbGI/NY0d1rNz6jCpIXfw5XuJvWQGxiiw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DS7PR06MB6903 Archived-At: Subject: [dispatch] draft-rosenberg-dispatch-cloudsip-00.txt X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2021 17:17:08 -0000 I wanted to call attention to this draft: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-rosenberg-dispatch-cloudsip-00.txt Basically, the draft proposes some new mechanisms to facilitate building SI= P-based systems which can avoid call drops in the face of complete failures= of B2BUAs which hold call state, and to do so in ways that are amenable to= cloud deployment (namely, elastically autoscaling clusters of a large numb= er of b2buas). Feedback is welcome, and we're especially interested in finding folks that = would be willing to prototype it with us. Thx, Jonathan R. -- Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D. mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net http://www.jdrosen.net/ ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any files attached may contain conf= idential information of Five9 and/or its affiliated entities. Access by the= intended recipient only is authorized. Any liability arising from any part= y acting, or refraining from acting, on any information contained in this e= -mail is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, please not= ify the sender immediately, destroy the original transmission and its attac= hments and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any= purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Copyright in this= e-mail and any attachments belongs to Five9 and/or its affiliated entities= . From nobody Fri Mar 5 15:28:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4ACA3A131F; Fri, 5 Mar 2021 15:28:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A0XbxmlVhacH; Fri, 5 Mar 2021 15:28:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BEA8C3A131C; Fri, 5 Mar 2021 15:28:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from fraeml702-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.200]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4DskHb0Rg6z67w63; Sat, 6 Mar 2021 07:20:43 +0800 (CST) Received: from fraeml702-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.51) by fraeml702-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.51) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.2106.2; Sat, 6 Mar 2021 00:28:31 +0100 Received: from DGGEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.38) by fraeml702-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.51) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA_P256) id 15.1.2106.2 via Frontend Transport; Sat, 6 Mar 2021 00:28:31 +0100 Received: from DGGEML512-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.49]) by DGGEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com ([fe80::fca6:7568:4ee3:c776%31]) with mapi id 14.03.0513.000; Sat, 6 Mar 2021 07:28:28 +0800 From: "Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)" To: "dispatch@ietf.org" CC: "apn@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: APN presentation in DISPATCH on Monday Thread-Index: AdcSFzZu8w2qQ9elQ62TC2X0SJq0eg== Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 23:28:27 +0000 Message-ID: <4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE1998517C@dggeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.45.186.145] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE1998517Cdggeml512mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [dispatch] APN presentation in DISPATCH on Monday X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2021 23:28:38 -0000 --_000_4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE1998517Cdggeml512mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Folks, Thanks to the DISPATCH Chairs and the ADs, we are going to present APN (App= lication-aware Networking) in the DISPATCH working group at 13:00-15:00 (UT= C+1) Monday. APN is focused on developing a framework and set of mechanisms to derive, c= onvey and use an attribute information to allow for the implementation of f= ine-grain user (group)-, application (group)-, and service-level requiremen= ts at the network layer. APN works within a limited trusted domain, which t= ypically is defined as a service provider's limited domain in which MPLS, V= XLAN, SR/SRv6 and other tunnel technologies are adopted to provide services= . In the presentation, we would like to introduce the concepts, clarify the s= cope, attract people to understand and discuss the topic, and collect feedb= ack and suggestions on this work, to further address the main concerns that= were raised by the IESG. For the ARTers, we would like to especially know about the new applications= ' trends and requirements on the network, and how the network can serve the= se groups/types of applications better. Please find the latest version of the key draft, clarifying the scope and t= he gap analysis. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-peng-apn-scope-gap-analysis-01 We have been discussing in the APN mailing list regarding the various aspec= ts of APN. If you have not subscribed, you are very welcome to subscribe. Y= ou can also find the archived discussions. https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/apn/about/ More information about APN can be found here. https://github.com/APN-Community Best Regards, Shuping --_000_4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE1998517Cdggeml512mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Folks,

 

Thanks to the DISPATCH Chairs a= nd the ADs, we are going to present APN (Application-aware Networking) in t= he DISPATCH working group at 13:00-15:00 (UTC+1) Monday.

 

APN is focused on developing a = framework and set of mechanisms to derive, convey and use an attribute info= rmation to allow for the implementation of fine-grain user (group)-, applic= ation (group)-, and service-level requirements at the network layer. APN works within a limited trusted domain, which typ= ically is defined as a service provider’s limited domain in which MPL= S, VXLAN, SR/SRv6 and other tunnel technologies are adopted to provide serv= ices.

 

In the presentation, we would l= ike to introduce the concepts, clarify the scope, attract people to underst= and and discuss the topic, and collect feedback and suggestions on this wor= k, to further address the main concerns that were raised by the IESG.

 

For the ARTers, we would like t= o especially know about the new applications’ trends and requirements= on the network, and how the network can serve these groups/types of applic= ations better.

 

Please find the latest version = of the key draft, clarifying the scope and the gap analysis.

https://datatracker= .ietf.org/doc/html/draft-peng-apn-scope-gap-analysis-01

 

We have been discussing in the = APN mailing list regarding the various aspects of APN. If you have not subs= cribed, you are very welcome to subscribe. You can also find the archived d= iscussions.  

https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/apn/about/

 

More information about APN can = be found here.

https://github.com/APN-Community

 

Best Regards,

Shuping

 

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Mon, 8 Mar 2021 10:01:53 -0500 To: dispatch@ietf.org References: From: Paul Kyzivat Message-ID: Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 10:01:52 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.16; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 1188ab8e-4add-4ba4-c9e2-08d8e2431cb5 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: SA0PR12MB4349: X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:8273; X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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 X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:18.7.68.33; CTRY:US; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:CAL; SFV:NSPM; H:outgoing-alum.mit.edu; PTR:outgoing-alum.mit.edu; CAT:NONE; SFS:(39860400002)(346002)(376002)(396003)(136003)(46966006)(36840700001)(5660300002)(31696002)(26005)(8936002)(966005)(75432002)(70586007)(86362001)(6916009)(47076005)(31686004)(70206006)(336012)(186003)(53546011)(478600001)(36906005)(2616005)(956004)(7596003)(356005)(83380400001)(82310400003)(2906002)(786003)(316002)(36860700001)(8676002)(82740400003)(43740500002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; X-OriginatorOrg: alum.mit.edu X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Mar 2021 15:01:54.4077 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 1188ab8e-4add-4ba4-c9e2-08d8e2431cb5 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalAttributedTenantConnectingIp: TenantId=3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f; Ip=[18.7.68.33]; Helo=[outgoing-alum.mit.edu] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DM3NAM02FT047.eop-nam02.prod.protection.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Anonymous X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SA0PR12MB4349 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] draft-rosenberg-dispatch-cloudsip-00.txt X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2021 15:01:58 -0000 Hi Jonathan! On 3/5/21 12:17 PM, Jonathan Rosenberg wrote: > I wanted to call attention to this draft: > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-rosenberg-dispatch-cloudsip-00.txt > > Basically, the draft proposes some new mechanisms to facilitate building SIP-based systems which can avoid call drops in the face of complete failures of B2BUAs which hold call state, and to do so in ways that are amenable to cloud deployment (namely, elastically autoscaling clusters of a large number of b2buas). > > Feedback is welcome, and we're especially interested in finding folks that would be willing to prototype it with us. A thought from a quick first read: Couldn't you use DNS to identify the existence and address of the cloud source server? Then this all becomes part of resolving the next hop when first setting up the call, and doesn't require special configuration of the calling server. Thanks, Paul > Thx, > Jonathan R. > > -- > Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D. > mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net > http://www.jdrosen.net/ > > > ________________________________ > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any files attached may contain confidential information of Five9 and/or its affiliated entities. Access by the intended recipient only is authorized. Any liability arising from any party acting, or refraining from acting, on any information contained in this e-mail is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately, destroy the original transmission and its attachments and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Copyright in this e-mail and any attachments belongs to Five9 and/or its affiliated entities. > > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > From nobody Mon Mar 8 12:55:14 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80C9B3A1740 for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2021 12:55:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.119 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.119 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fastmailteam.com header.b=m251Twza; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=qbKrtStP Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jB6jHxXIlYCT for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2021 12:55:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E7A13A173E for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2021 12:55:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 746B52624 for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2021 15:55:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 08 Mar 2021 15:55:10 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= fastmailteam.com; h=to:from:subject:message-id:date:mime-version :content-type; s=fm2; bh=puJf9vG91xa0g1k9Jmu5xsrLvMI+YZ7IdmMuweu iHxM=; b=m251TwzaL87GY1njpggyUO4p+aYSqAXP9VOjF0PQzPcqhnoz18lbXud iE3ujqTwDmxmPNXv3EMGiEt0VWnTheexiv8Pgvx72IFlei34BU4Iok7PBOnzpcKv JAmR3HzBs9HMdPZ4RyG4UfxEVsbBd0c7D947SGoDlY9GLxUYjSmfQFMnDoc0mSls tpH34+V01HbirpcSuU7GZsaXQR8bxRsxoxo+dBMhRyWIulmGWlBfq2RJqzRCIE1X yfmOu+rSCBbbRwZ5ee0DBtiqhuygLAzZiAqA15vahcW5fBoOiaPDs3TJGxVAkTDX uLjCMzZg48Wc/poKuorpzu+s3Cqt5Uw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:message-id :mime-version:subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=puJf9vG91xa0g1k9Jmu5xsrLvMI+Y Z7IdmMuweuiHxM=; b=qbKrtStPqnwKs4dUolOI4pFGbtfK5AUwSH+z1BLp9q+ft oHhGIsY9rggScrVDS7CvDEy0k+G9Lh6uuYIblTK71yuIm3UMyWOU3Zizoh0rVps4 M1AsRJob7v+VKbSFxJ32qXh0R75hXC1qQVTwt28VwkX9or1R0ennOXVk2Ld/yK7+ uVF4mOsqEE2usTwYNhcpA5lJjutW7HV2MOKLzKP/Rjgta/hmxO6NrkXSC2CC0nMI 8qhEJkYhkivt8OHiAhg8BKblhk/Hm7xi7h3Dx8HLiHwO2ND/9KhIsS3u6BpcdSbL G7FiwubOZ+qtLgPlpr2EZ9nVaAH/YLGoZJkZ52R5w== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledruddugedgjeejucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefvhffukffffgggtgesrgdtreertd efjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvnhcuofhurhgthhhishhonhcuoehmuhhrtghhsehfrghsthhm rghilhhtvggrmhdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepheeffeelieejheelhfdtge efveefleegkeegudejheegheekveellefhleeiheetnecuffhomhgrihhnpehivghtfhdr ohhrghenucfkphepjeegrdejjedrkeehrddvhedtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd enucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhurhgthhesfhgrshhtmhgrihhlthgvrghm rdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.22] (cpe-74-77-85-250.buffalo.res.rr.com [74.77.85.250]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id BED33240064 for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2021 15:55:09 -0500 (EST) To: dispatch@ietf.org From: Ken Murchison Message-ID: Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 15:55:09 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------237F8225BA2C714830DEB447" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [dispatch] draft-murchison-rfc8536bis-00 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2021 20:55:14 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------237F8225BA2C714830DEB447 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All, The authors of RFC 8536 (Time Zone Information Format) have started an update providing editorial improvements, new details, and errata fixes. The original specification was done within the now-closed TZDIST WG. We started this effort too late to get on the DISPATCH agenda earlier today, so Barry Leiba suggested that we bring the existing draft here to see where the members feel where the continuing work should reside. The current draft does not make any changes to the format, but we recently have determined that an upcoming clarification MAY dictate that we specify a new v4 format. -- Kenneth Murchison Cyrus Development Team Fastmail US LLC --------------237F8225BA2C714830DEB447 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

All,

The authors of RFC 8536 (Time Zone Information Format) have started an update providing editorial improvements, new details, and errata fixes.  The original specification was done within the now-closed TZDIST WG.

We started this effort too late to get on the DISPATCH agenda earlier today, so Barry Leiba suggested that we bring the existing draft here to see where the members feel where the continuing work should reside.

The current draft does not make any changes to the format, but we recently have determined that an upcoming clarification MAY dictate that we specify a new v4 format.

-- 
Kenneth Murchison
Cyrus Development Team
Fastmail US LLC
--------------237F8225BA2C714830DEB447-- From nobody Mon Mar 8 13:13:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72D373A17A5 for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2021 13:13:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Skm7Ck5ynKUr for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2021 13:13:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from aer-iport-3.cisco.com (aer-iport-3.cisco.com [173.38.203.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 62A563A17A3 for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2021 13:13:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=5426; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1615238018; x=1616447618; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc: to:references; bh=39mzOWF+KuCg/wci7AVgIENObcB3aRjkAagkWQivIn8=; b=NzeRBqDbi4QEsSTyyzC1aREiQqZ2Gpus0ZTFrOEp22TBpOFFCPupti26 oiYNEUZYtOD4SZIT84c8aGFqlEPpwxeMLay/7Rv+KGP/yhKo8lUG9nQag oNk7mRnV44T+aa/NaZ3SKtMfSjKsqXadbb0bbefyJekAFsicgr+tP+Hkt U=; X-Files: signature.asc : 488 X-IPAS-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AYAACnkkZg/xbLJq1iGgEBAQEBAQEBAQEDAQEBARIBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAgIBAQEBgX4CAQEBAQsBgXuBJVYBJxIxhEGJBIhYA5QwiB0EBwEBAQoDA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEdAQoMBAEBhAlEAoF7JjcGDgIDAQEBAwIDAQEBAQUBAQECAQYEcYVhDYZEA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAwEBASFLCwULCwQKCioCAicwBhOCcAGCZiEPrCN2gTKEU0FEhGwKBoE5A?= =?us-ascii?q?YFShRsOAYZFQoILgTgcglc+glwBAQIBAYRyNIIrBIJVER4qIiEOAls9gVyQH?= =?us-ascii?q?UICjBacWoMIgy+BPIRVkmYDH4M5kCOQEJZoiTmSc4N1AgQGBQIWgWokgVczG?= =?us-ascii?q?ggbFTsqAYI+PhIZDY4rFoEBAQmHVoVGQAMvOAIGAQkBAQMJjyYBAQ?= X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.81,233,1610409600"; d="asc'?scan'208,217";a="31584414" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 08 Mar 2021 21:13:36 +0000 Received: from [10.61.144.48] ([10.61.144.48]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 128LDZJl028214 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Mar 2021 21:13:36 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: <9DC92A89-3B7E-47AE-97E2-3271D696393C@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8BE1517E-56D4-4391-99A0-ADCA8F9B2DCA"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 22:13:35 +0100 In-Reply-To: Cc: dispatch@ietf.org To: Ken Murchison References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.144.48, [10.61.144.48] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-1.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] draft-murchison-rfc8536bis-00 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2021 21:13:40 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_8BE1517E-56D4-4391-99A0-ADCA8F9B2DCA Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C0FAF4F5-6755-4945-835A-D731F421910A" --Apple-Mail=_C0FAF4F5-6755-4945-835A-D731F421910A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Ken, This looks good. These are very incremental changes, and I=E2=80=99ve = confirmed at least that the example that you have for all year DST works = on several implementations. Last time around we did a mini-wg. Unless = there is a real reason to do a v4 format, I=E2=80=99d say that = AD-sponsored could get this out quickly. A v4 format is a horse of a = different color. For that I=E2=80=99d do another mini-WG. What=E2=80=99s= the clarification? Eliot > On 8 Mar 2021, at 21:55, Ken Murchison wrote: >=20 > All, >=20 > The authors of RFC 8536 (Time Zone Information Format) have started an = update = providin= g editorial improvements, new details, and errata fixes. The original = specification was done within the now-closed TZDIST WG. >=20 > We started this effort too late to get on the DISPATCH agenda earlier = today, so Barry Leiba suggested that we bring the existing draft here to = see where the members feel where the continuing work should reside. >=20 > The current draft does not make any changes to the format, but we = recently have determined that an upcoming clarification MAY dictate that = we specify a new v4 format. >=20 > -- > Kenneth Murchison > Cyrus Development Team > Fastmail US LLC > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch --Apple-Mail=_C0FAF4F5-6755-4945-835A-D731F421910A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Ken,

This looks = good.  These are very incremental changes, and = I=E2=80=99ve confirmed at least that the example that you have for all = year DST works on several implementations.  Last time around we did = a mini-wg.  Unless there is a real reason to do a v4 format, I=E2=80=99= d say that AD-sponsored could get this out quickly.  A v4 format is = a horse of a different color.  For that I=E2=80=99d do another = mini-WG.  What=E2=80=99s the clarification?

Eliot

On 8 Mar = 2021, at 21:55, Ken Murchison <murch@fastmailteam.com> wrote:

=20

All,

The authors of RFC = 8536 (Time Zone Information Format) have started an update providing editorial improvements, new details, and errata = fixes.  The original specification was done within the now-closed TZDIST WG.

We started this effort too late to get on the = DISPATCH agenda earlier today, so Barry Leiba suggested that we bring the existing draft here to see where the members feel where the continuing work should reside.

The current draft does not make = any changes to the format, but we recently have determined that an upcoming clarification MAY dictate that we specify a new v4 format.

--=20
Kenneth Murchison
Cyrus Development Team
Fastmail US LLC
_______________________________________________
dispatch = mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
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Tue, 9 Mar 2021 07:43:15 -0500 (EST) To: dispatch@ietf.org References: <9DC92A89-3B7E-47AE-97E2-3271D696393C@cisco.com> From: Ken Murchison Message-ID: <8c5f2686-1dc8-9827-9bfa-a0291f52afb1@fastmail.com> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 07:43:14 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9DC92A89-3B7E-47AE-97E2-3271D696393C@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------C46119F488C32531C8F7D4EA" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] draft-murchison-rfc8536bis-00 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2021 12:43:19 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------C46119F488C32531C8F7D4EA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Eliot, The clarification is that there is currently no (good) method for specifying the expiration of the leap second table.  This wouldn't require a change to the format, but perhaps a change in the semantics of the last (or additional) leap second record.  Whether this change would require a bump in the version is the open question. On 3/8/21 4:13 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: > Hi Ken, > > This looks good.  These are *very* incremental changes, and I’ve > confirmed at least that the example that you have for all year DST > works on several implementations.  Last time around we did a mini-wg. >  Unless there is a real reason to do a v4 format, I’d say that > AD-sponsored could get this out quickly.  A v4 format is a horse of a > different color.  For that I’d do another mini-WG.  What’s the > clarification? > > Eliot > >> On 8 Mar 2021, at 21:55, Ken Murchison > > wrote: >> >> All, >> >> The authors of RFC 8536 (Time Zone Information Format) have started >> an update >> >> providing editorial improvements, new details, and errata fixes.  The >> original specification was done within the now-closed TZDIST WG. >> >> We started this effort too late to get on the DISPATCH agenda earlier >> today, so Barry Leiba suggested that we bring the existing draft here >> to see where the members feel where the continuing work should reside. >> >> The current draft does not make any changes to the format, but we >> recently have determined that an upcoming clarification MAY dictate >> that we specify a new v4 format. >> >> -- >> Kenneth Murchison >> Cyrus Development Team >> Fastmail US LLC >> _______________________________________________ >> dispatch mailing list >> dispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > --------------C46119F488C32531C8F7D4EA Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hi Eliot,

The clarification is that there is currently no (good) method for specifying the expiration of the leap second table.  This wouldn't require a change to the format, but perhaps a change in the semantics of the last (or additional) leap second record.  Whether this change would require a bump in the version is the open question.


On 3/8/21 4:13 PM, Eliot Lear wrote:
Hi Ken,

This looks good.  These are very incremental changes, and I’ve confirmed at least that the example that you have for all year DST works on several implementations.  Last time around we did a mini-wg.  Unless there is a real reason to do a v4 format, I’d say that AD-sponsored could get this out quickly.  A v4 format is a horse of a different color.  For that I’d do another mini-WG.  What’s the clarification?

Eliot

On 8 Mar 2021, at 21:55, Ken Murchison <murch@fastmailteam.com> wrote:

All,

The authors of RFC 8536 (Time Zone Information Format) have started an update providing editorial improvements, new details, and errata fixes.  The original specification was done within the now-closed TZDIST WG.

We started this effort too late to get on the DISPATCH agenda earlier today, so Barry Leiba suggested that we bring the existing draft here to see where the members feel where the continuing work should reside.

The current draft does not make any changes to the format, but we recently have determined that an upcoming clarification MAY dictate that we specify a new v4 format.

-- 
Kenneth Murchison
Cyrus Development Team
Fastmail US LLC
_______________________________________________
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To be clear - are you suggesting we don't need the protocol to push from th= e source to the sync? Or rather, that we can utilize discovery to allowing = the calling server to find the config server, eliminating the need for the = initial configuration of a URL? I thought about adding some kind of auto-discovery, but in all cases there = needs to be initial configuration in the calling server, when the SIP trunk= is created between the calling server and the cluster itself. There will a= lready be a bunch of config in that. Whether you add a DNS name for the clo= ud SIP trunk, or an HTTPS URI, seemed half a dozen on one hand, 6 on the ot= her. Thx, Jonathan R. -----Original Message----- From: dispatch On Behalf Of Paul Kyzivat Sent: Monday, March 8, 2021 10:02 AM To: dispatch@ietf.org Subject: Re: [dispatch] draft-rosenberg-dispatch-cloudsip-00.txt Hi Jonathan! On 3/5/21 12:17 PM, Jonathan Rosenberg wrote: > I wanted to call attention to this draft: > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-rosenberg-dispatch-cloudsip-00.t > xt > > Basically, the draft proposes some new mechanisms to facilitate building = SIP-based systems which can avoid call drops in the face of complete failur= es of B2BUAs which hold call state, and to do so in ways that are amenable = to cloud deployment (namely, elastically autoscaling clusters of a large nu= mber of b2buas). > > Feedback is welcome, and we're especially interested in finding folks tha= t would be willing to prototype it with us. A thought from a quick first read: Couldn't you use DNS to identify the existence and address of the cloud sou= rce server? Then this all becomes part of resolving the next hop when first= setting up the call, and doesn't require special configuration of the call= ing server. Thanks, Paul > Thx, > Jonathan R. > > -- > Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D. > mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net > http://www.jdrosen.net/ > > > ________________________________ > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any files attached may contain co= nfidential information of Five9 and/or its affiliated entities. Access by t= he intended recipient only is authorized. Any liability arising from any pa= rty acting, or refraining from acting, on any information contained in this= e-mail is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, please n= otify the sender immediately, destroy the original transmission and its att= achments and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for a= ny purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Copyright in th= is e-mail and any attachments belongs to Five9 and/or its affiliated entiti= es. > > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > _______________________________________________ dispatch mailing list dispatch@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any files attached may contain conf= idential information of Five9 and/or its affiliated entities. Access by the= intended recipient only is authorized. Any liability arising from any part= y acting, or refraining from acting, on any information contained in this e= -mail is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, please not= ify the sender immediately, destroy the original transmission and its attac= hments and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any= purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Copyright in this= e-mail and any attachments belongs to Five9 and/or its affiliated entities= . 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Tue, 9 Mar 2021 14:10:55 -0500 To: Jonathan Rosenberg , "dispatch@ietf.org" References: From: Paul Kyzivat Message-ID: <17e57760-64df-f302-de0d-462ec10f0ba0@alum.mit.edu> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 14:10:54 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.16; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: a553201b-2410-48b4-3f7d-08d8e32f11a0 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: MN2PR12MB4031: X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:2887; X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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 X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:18.7.68.33; CTRY:US; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:CAL; SFV:NSPM; H:outgoing-alum.mit.edu; PTR:outgoing-alum.mit.edu; CAT:NONE; SFS:(376002)(346002)(39860400002)(396003)(136003)(36840700001)(46966006)(2906002)(316002)(31696002)(336012)(82740400003)(36906005)(5660300002)(356005)(26005)(7596003)(186003)(70206006)(83380400001)(31686004)(53546011)(966005)(86362001)(956004)(2616005)(75432002)(8676002)(47076005)(110136005)(70586007)(82310400003)(36860700001)(786003)(8936002)(478600001)(43740500002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; X-OriginatorOrg: alum.mit.edu X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Mar 2021 19:10:57.0228 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: a553201b-2410-48b4-3f7d-08d8e32f11a0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalAttributedTenantConnectingIp: TenantId=3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f; Ip=[18.7.68.33]; Helo=[outgoing-alum.mit.edu] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: CY1NAM02FT037.eop-nam02.prod.protection.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Anonymous X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR12MB4031 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] draft-rosenberg-dispatch-cloudsip-00.txt X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2021 19:11:02 -0000 On 3/9/21 9:35 AM, Jonathan Rosenberg wrote: > Thanks Paul for the comments! > > To be clear - are you suggesting we don't need the protocol to push from the source to the sync? Or rather, that we can utilize discovery to allowing the calling server to find the config server, eliminating the need for the initial configuration of a URL? The latter. > I thought about adding some kind of auto-discovery, but in all cases there needs to be initial configuration in the calling server, when the SIP trunk is created between the calling server and the cluster itself. There will already be a bunch of config in that. Whether you add a DNS name for the cloud SIP trunk, or an HTTPS URI, seemed half a dozen on one hand, 6 on the other. Why must there be any preconfiguration in the calling server? Can't it discover it all by resolving the url to the next hop? Or is the route to the next hop being injected by the calling server, so *that* must be configured into it? Thanks, Paul > Thx, > Jonathan R. > > -----Original Message----- > From: dispatch On Behalf Of Paul Kyzivat > Sent: Monday, March 8, 2021 10:02 AM > To: dispatch@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [dispatch] draft-rosenberg-dispatch-cloudsip-00.txt > > Hi Jonathan! > > On 3/5/21 12:17 PM, Jonathan Rosenberg wrote: >> I wanted to call attention to this draft: >> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-rosenberg-dispatch-cloudsip-00.t >> xt >> >> Basically, the draft proposes some new mechanisms to facilitate building SIP-based systems which can avoid call drops in the face of complete failures of B2BUAs which hold call state, and to do so in ways that are amenable to cloud deployment (namely, elastically autoscaling clusters of a large number of b2buas). >> >> Feedback is welcome, and we're especially interested in finding folks that would be willing to prototype it with us. > > A thought from a quick first read: > > Couldn't you use DNS to identify the existence and address of the cloud source server? Then this all becomes part of resolving the next hop when first setting up the call, and doesn't require special configuration of the calling server. > > Thanks, > Paul > >> Thx, >> Jonathan R. >> >> -- >> Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D. >> mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net >> http://www.jdrosen.net/ >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any files attached may contain confidential information of Five9 and/or its affiliated entities. Access by the intended recipient only is authorized. Any liability arising from any party acting, or refraining from acting, on any information contained in this e-mail is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately, destroy the original transmission and its attachments and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Copyright in this e-mail and any attachments belongs to Five9 and/or its affiliated entities. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dispatch mailing list >> dispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch >> > > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > > > > ________________________________ > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any files attached may contain confidential information of Five9 and/or its affiliated entities. Access by the intended recipient only is authorized. Any liability arising from any party acting, or refraining from acting, on any information contained in this e-mail is hereby excluded. 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boundary="_000_LO2P123MB3599F29FA3A3BA8C43B0B376D7919LO2P123MB3599GBRP_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ncsc.gov.uk X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: LO2P123MB3599.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 2b4925c2-a264-44ae-bff4-08d8e3fca24f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 10 Mar 2021 19:42:26.6308 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 14aa5744-ece1-474e-a2d7-34f46dda64a1 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: oNZrQy9WG3e2IjUaV6gs1Mihi7ECg7MzuMxMmt42siHA0wmCOEPT9OID61E+4+yv74RiqzSurDEMotj4C1ELZg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: LOYP123MB3181 Archived-At: Subject: [dispatch] DISPATCH IETF 110 - Meeting Summary X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 19:42:32 -0000 --_000_LO2P123MB3599F29FA3A3BA8C43B0B376D7919LO2P123MB3599GBRP_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dispatchers, Firstly, many thanks to all our speakers at Monday's session, and to the di= spatch community for your discussion and feedback. The summary of dispatch outcomes are: 1. Date and Time on the Internet is dispatched as: make a short-lived WG= . The charter seems uncontroversial, so dispatch recommends that a BoF is not= needed. However, we agreed to finalise this discussion on list - so please= read the charter and comment if you think a BoF is needed. The charter is here: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dispatch/ral4HWl= VDw8mRRRmvMdSGPtGA0Y/ and the draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dr= aft-ryzokuken-datetime-extended/ 1. On Media-Types, Content-Types, and related terminology is dispatched = as: the scope and problem need clarifying on the dispatch list. Depending on the simplicity of the problem, and list discussion, a BoF coul= d be a next step after this clarification. 1. HTTP negotiation is dispatched as: more discussion required on the di= spatch list. The meeting suggested this was HTTPAPI-destined, though we would like more = discussion on the list to confirm this (and we - DISPATCH chairs - will sta= rt this discussion). All other presentations (APN, qlog, SDP mapping, SIP extensions) were for i= nformation only, not for dispatch. However, if you're interested, do follow= up with the presenters, try out the tools, read the drafts and keep discus= sion going on the list to progress the work. Finally, if you missed it... * All meeting materials are here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/110/= session/dispatch * Minutes are here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/110/materials/minu= tes-110-dispatch-00 (taken from https://codimd.ietf.org/s/notes-ietf-110-di= spatch) - if you have any corrections, please contact the dispatch chairs. * YouTube recording is up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DjlCY-CpzdCk Thanks again to all our speakers for making it such a full session. Kirsty This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA)= and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer any FOIA q= ueries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk. All material is UK Crown Copyright =A9 --_000_LO2P123MB3599F29FA3A3BA8C43B0B376D7919LO2P123MB3599GBRP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dispatchers,

Firstly, many thanks to all our speakers at Monday's session, and to the di= spatch community for your discussion and feedback.

The summary of dispat= ch outcomes are:
  1. Date and Time on the Internet is dispatched as: make a short-lived WG.<= br> The charter seems uncontroversial, so dispatch recommends that a BoF is not= needed. However, we agreed to finalise this discussion on list - so please= read the charter and comment if you think a BoF is needed.
    The charter is here: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dispatch/ra= l4HWlVDw8mRRRmvMdSGPtGA0Y/ and the draft is: https://datatracker.= ietf.org/doc/draft-ryzokuken-datetime-extended/
  1. On Media-Types, Content-Types, and related terminology is dispatched as= : the scope and problem need clarifying on the dispatch list.
    Depending on the simplicity of the problem, and list discussion, a BoF coul= d be a next step after this clarification. 
  1. HTTP negotiation is dispatched as: more discussion required on the dispatch= list.
    The meeting suggested this was HTTPAPI-destined, though we would like more = discussion on the list to confirm this (and we - DISPATCH chairs - will start this discussion).
All other presentations (APN, qlog, SDP mapping, SIP extensions) were for i= nformation only, not for dispatch. However, if you're interested, do follow= up with the presenters, try out the tools, read the drafts and keep discus= sion going on the list to progress the work.

Finally, if you missed it...
* All meeting materials are here: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/110/session/dispatch
* Minutes are here: https://d= atatracker.ietf.org/meeting/110/materials/minutes-110-dispatch-00 (tak= en from https://codimd.ietf.org/s/notes-ietf-110-dispatch) - if you have an= y corrections, please contact the dispatch chairs.
* YouTube recording= is up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DjlCY-CpzdCk 

Thanks again to all our speakers for making it such a full session.

Kirsty



This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA)= and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer any FOIA q= ueries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk. All material is UK Crown Copyright =A9 --_000_LO2P123MB3599F29FA3A3BA8C43B0B376D7919LO2P123MB3599GBRP_-- From nobody Wed Mar 10 19:09:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31BD23A091B; Wed, 10 Mar 2021 19:09:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cWUXMlvELeOt; Wed, 10 Mar 2021 19:09:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6517F3A0907; Wed, 10 Mar 2021 19:09:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from fraeml710-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.207]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4Dwty32Cbmz67cgg; Thu, 11 Mar 2021 11:01:31 +0800 (CST) Received: from fraeml710-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.59) by fraeml710-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.59) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2106.2; Thu, 11 Mar 2021 04:09:36 +0100 Received: from DGGEML421-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.38) by fraeml710-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.59) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA) id 15.1.2106.2 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 11 Mar 2021 04:09:35 +0100 Received: from DGGEML512-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.49]) by dggeml421-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.199.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0513.000; Thu, 11 Mar 2021 11:09:06 +0800 From: "Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)" To: "dispatch@ietf.org" CC: "apn@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: APN presentation in DISPATCH on Monday Thread-Index: AdcSFzZu8w2qQ9elQ62TC2X0SJq0egECd0mA Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 03:09:30 +0000 Message-ID: <4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE199A3224@dggeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.45.182.152] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE199A3224dggeml512mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] APN presentation in DISPATCH on Monday X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 03:09:42 -0000 --_000_4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE199A3224dggeml512mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Folks, Many thanks for your very valuable discussions and feedback on the APN pres= entation in the ARTAREA on Monday! When going through the discussions in the Jabber room, we found that some s= imilar questions have been frequently asked, so we summarized a list of FAQ= s as below to further clarify the confusions and concerns. Your review and = feedback will be very much welcomed and appreciated. Thank you! 1. Are there any applications that can benefit from APN? I would like to ask how many of us have experienced the Meetecho issues in = this IETF and the virtual ones before. This is one of the applications that= can benefit from APN. :) In this IETF, we had a hackathon "Application-aware G-SRv6 networking", whi= ch shows the improvements that can be achieved with APN, using which the tr= affic is steered into the appropriate SRv6 path [1]. The results are going = to be presented and demonstrated in the INFOCOM2021. There was also the fir= st demonstration of APN in the INFOCOM2020 [2]. [1]https://github.com/APN-Community/IETF-110-Hackathon-Demo/blob/master/App= lication-aware_G-SRv6_networking__Demo_and_Test.pdf [2]https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/9162934 2. How APN can help resolve the QoE issues? As shown in the APN demonstrations, we can see the differences/improvements= which APN can make in the network. QoE is complex and has many impacting f= actors including the terminal, access, and network. APN aims to provide way= s to improve the QoE within the network. 3. Who is to set the APN attribute? It is the network edge device such as CPE (Customer Premises Equipment) not= the application. 4. How to set the APN attribute? There are many possible ways that can be used to classify the traffic flow = at the network edge, e.g., the N-tuples as defined in the MEF70 and the AI = technologies. An APN attribute can be derived by using the match items publ= ished in MEF70 as well as the access port in the edge device. 5. How the APN attribute is used in the network? The APN attribute is carried in the data packet's header, and it can be use= d in the various nodes/service functions along the network path to enforce = the policies on the differentiated traffic flow, e.g., 1) at the headend to steer into corresponding path satisfying SLAs 2) at the midpoint to collect corresponding performance measurement data 3) at the service function to execute particular policies Best regards, Shuping From: Pengshuping (Peng Shuping) Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 7:28 AM To: 'dispatch@ietf.org' Cc: apn@ietf.org Subject: APN presentation in DISPATCH on Monday Hi Folks, Thanks to the DISPATCH Chairs and the ADs, we are going to present APN (App= lication-aware Networking) in the DISPATCH working group at 13:00-15:00 (UT= C+1) Monday. APN is focused on developing a framework and set of mechanisms to derive, c= onvey and use an attribute information to allow for the implementation of f= ine-grain user (group)-, application (group)-, and service-level requiremen= ts at the network layer. APN works within a limited trusted domain, which t= ypically is defined as a service provider's limited domain in which MPLS, V= XLAN, SR/SRv6 and other tunnel technologies are adopted to provide services= . In the presentation, we would like to introduce the concepts, clarify the s= cope, attract people to understand and discuss the topic, and collect feedb= ack and suggestions on this work, to further address the main concerns that= were raised by the IESG. For the ARTers, we would like to especially know about the new applications= ' trends and requirements on the network, and how the network can serve the= se groups/types of applications better. Please find the latest version of the key draft, clarifying the scope and t= he gap analysis. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-peng-apn-scope-gap-analysis-01 We have been discussing in the APN mailing list regarding the various aspec= ts of APN. If you have not subscribed, you are very welcome to subscribe. Y= ou can also find the archived discussions. https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/apn/about/ More information about APN can be found here. https://github.com/APN-Community Best Regards, Shuping --_000_4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE199A3224dggeml512mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Folk= s,

&n= bsp;

Many th= anks for your very valuable discussions and feedback on the APN presentatio= n in the ARTAREA on Monday!

&n= bsp;

When go= ing through the discussions in the Jabber room, we found that some similar = questions have been frequently asked, so we summarized a list of FAQs as be= low to further clarify the confusions and concerns. Your review and feedback will be very much welcomed and appr= eciated. Thank you!  

&n= bsp;

1. A= re there any applications that can benefit from APN?<= /p>

I would= like to ask how many of us have experienced the Meetecho issues in this IE= TF and the virtual ones before. This is one of the applications that can be= nefit from APN. :)

&n= bsp;

In this= IETF, we had a hackathon "Application-aware G-SRv6 networking", = which shows the improvements that can be achieved with APN, using which the= traffic is steered into the appropriate SRv6 path [1]. The results are going to be presented and demonstrated in the INFOCOM= 2021. There was also the first demonstration of APN in the INFOCOM2020 [2].

&n= bsp;

[1]https://github.com= /APN-Community/IETF-110-Hackathon-Demo/blob/master/Application-aware_G-SRv6= _networking__Demo_and_Test.pdf

[2]https://ieeex= plore.ieee.org/abstract/document/9162934

&n= bsp;

2. H= ow APN can help resolve the QoE issues?

As show= n in the APN demonstrations, we can see the differences/improvements which = APN can make in the network. QoE is complex and has many impacting factors = including the terminal, access, and network. APN aims to provide ways to improve the QoE within the network.

&n= bsp;

3. W= ho is to set the APN attribute?

It is t= he network edge device such as CPE (Customer Premises Equipment) not the ap= plication.

&n= bsp;

4. H= ow to set the APN attribute?

There a= re many possible ways that can be used to classify the traffic flow at the = network edge, e.g., the N-tuples as defined in the MEF70 and the AI technol= ogies. An APN attribute can be derived by using the match items published in MEF70 as well as the access port in = the edge device.

&n= bsp;

5. H= ow the APN attribute is used in the network?

The APN= attribute is carried in the data packet's header, and it can be used in th= e various nodes/service functions along the network path to enforce the pol= icies on the differentiated traffic flow, e.g.,

1) at t= he headend to steer into corresponding path satisfying SLAs

2) at t= he midpoint to collect corresponding performance measurement data

3) at t= he service function to execute particular policies

&n= bsp;

Best re= gards,

Shuping=

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

From: Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 7:28 AM
To: 'dispatch@ietf.org' <dispatch@ietf.org>
Cc: apn@ietf.org
Subject: APN presentation in DISPATCH on Monday

 

Hi Folks,

 

Thanks to the DISPATCH Chairs a= nd the ADs, we are going to present APN (Application-aware Networking) in t= he DISPATCH working group at 13:00-15:00 (UTC+1) Monday.

 

APN is focused on developing a = framework and set of mechanisms to derive, convey and use an attribute info= rmation to allow for the implementation of fine-grain user (group)-, applic= ation (group)-, and service-level requirements at the network layer. APN works within a limited trusted domain, which typ= ically is defined as a service provider’s limited domain in which MPL= S, VXLAN, SR/SRv6 and other tunnel technologies are adopted to provide serv= ices.

 

In the presentation, we would l= ike to introduce the concepts, clarify the scope, attract people to underst= and and discuss the topic, and collect feedback and suggestions on this wor= k, to further address the main concerns that were raised by the IESG.

 

For the ARTers, we would like t= o especially know about the new applications’ trends and requirements= on the network, and how the network can serve these groups/types of applic= ations better.

 

Please find the latest version = of the key draft, clarifying the scope and the gap analysis.

https://datatracker= .ietf.org/doc/html/draft-peng-apn-scope-gap-analysis-01

 

We have been discussing in the = APN mailing list regarding the various aspects of APN. If you have not subs= cribed, you are very welcome to subscribe. You can also find the archived d= iscussions.  

https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/apn/about/

 

More information about APN can = be found here.

https://github.com/APN-Community

 

Best Regards,

Shuping

 

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X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 09:23:25 -0000 --_000_LO2P123MB359947EBC226255D113DA544D7919LO2P123MB3599GBRP_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dispatchers, After Ruben's presentation to the session on Monday, the outcome for HTTP p= rofile negotiation (draft: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-svensson-= profiled-representations/) was: to have more discussion on lists to confirm= where it should go, with early indications suggesting it's destined for ht= tpapi. Therefore, let's have that discussion... Kirsty This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA)= and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer any FOIA q= ueries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk. All material is UK Crown Copyright =A9 --_000_LO2P123MB359947EBC226255D113DA544D7919LO2P123MB3599GBRP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dispatchers,

After Ruben's presentation to th= e session on Monday, the outcome for HTTP profile negotiation (draft: https= ://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-svensson-profiled-representations/) was: to have more discussion on lists to confirm where it should go, with = early indications suggesting it's destined for httpapi.

Therefore, let's have that discu= ssion...

Kirsty



This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA)= and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer any FOIA q= ueries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk. All material is UK Crown Copyright =A9 --_000_LO2P123MB359947EBC226255D113DA544D7919LO2P123MB3599GBRP_-- From nobody Thu Mar 11 03:36:16 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B23B83A19C5; Thu, 11 Mar 2021 03:36:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.118 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.118 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=web.de Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rSvLWCyMoIav; Thu, 11 Mar 2021 03:36:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.web.de (mout.web.de [212.227.17.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DBBB93A19C4; Thu, 11 Mar 2021 03:36:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1615462562; bh=53oPfLNhst8hunWZrTPeXZ51V2XXVVHKll9b0lzRak4=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References; b=odKUrB+ccRjSUu+VR9PayfyhVl694iivA7CN9F2LxOdkT32vuZwtMEVEOAEdgPkLT iAqDwMpRbwSRqavHJuL9gIjJofTPLu5qNnzfOww6KXbXOPS+htCgR1wfbQHqJ4cpqs XwkmS7/PbAtWCR15jHgvxxlB4Z8/hXMU3Q87BTFA= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from [77.87.224.101] ([77.87.224.101]) by web-mail.web.de (3c-app-webde-bap04.server.lan [172.19.172.4]) (via HTTP); Thu, 11 Mar 2021 12:36:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Lars G. Svensson" To: Kirsty P , dispatch@ietf.org Cc: Ruben Verborgh , Herbert Van de Sompel , "httpapi@ietf.org" , Kirsty P Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 12:36:02 +0100 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:EGugnDyweGmNU7tfIl+20H73kvYFaOLKze+Jp3rzYXqbOB6tlZfbmZGJWyrbxadSTbHX1 U115NK1J4TIWR6YrRx/WUiU4eueR2gjU62m9kyaJAd9bk86z0uk/VxZhFPeJ006Fbb1TGMJafiXP Z+5twf7ChBR263QoyTbhG54NUHmJ6icIaTJx7daxiCWcyKs3Dy882xvVprdKFWeiIWwZpcYdng8l 2SA4bz0VSxFEAiXbItrL7IAuhicuXTbHtus+eRPhQFb7xPS6Tuz7vaN7f0w2OS6weGkMycSzgPkB +A= X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:wTXPmw1A9Ck=:TcE15RUz4D41Whj2EkC8Fx JTpjm0+XHiPB25jpewRcTIm/JJP+DdVdgCxdjd0XWxACoTHjsyL6QXvFaKiNnqb5QkHoWA5X3 tvkwVwnmWFhIkx7tmssYn2GDyktjEWykjP21nxud0FdYVH5l5BPtI5co9r6iV1I4FqUHA1JTd 1wcZSzPsbO11v2WWlHDN4DwWISFTD/Qa3x2n1oJ66ZbHPuNHfXWD8Xi/vLcemuZ7/7AOPEJ3+ 1vxfPrPf39fwPtxjSjU3AbsL9h5jHpF0y8Hien8jhnn7x1fxyCprDZS79QMqDmvHr83vDjjXl tqBV3auw1A6/yrqdgDjHKesA4Ft3594Q3e45KhOfD9a69aSEcx8UYz7FOq3K6hAlwjY8HPQRK A4QktuUHaYrTyMtTE+PbRYiWkFG6sOVEmd8Mc8Ho5Y+CLp0/YanQJeouNgf/GoV9yro7CSIci ltGYhytGqjP8hHCAVPr0lJ12u8mqJS7g+zbpPSf7Vw2MF6p2XyPBBwWu6jxskEa0f5aClu8IC s3Gh2pfSL5Ya3PE8hNMLi/sEZbiRtVEhgXpI3XdymHoXcllZMCCw6RrVK2mqSzftshOi40rUw 07L+wh8YzsV/Y= Archived-At: Subject: [dispatch] HTTP profile negotiation -- implementation evidence (was: HTTP profile negotiation - httpapi?) X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 11:36:15 -0000 On Mittwoch, 10=2E M=C3=A4rz 2021 um 20:53 Uhr, "Kirsty P" wrote: =C2=A0 > After Ruben's presentation to the session on Monday, the outcome for HTT= P profile negotiation > (draft: https://datatracker=2Eietf=2Eorg/doc/draft-svensson-profiled-rep= resentations/) was: to have > more discussion on lists to confirm where it should go, with early indic= ations suggesting it's > destined for httpapi=2E =C2=A0 > Therefore, let's have that discussion=2E=2E=2E Thank you Kirsty for moving this forward=2E Within the W3C Data Exchange WG [1] there are activities building on this = proposal including some implementation work [2]=2E Even if this does not he= lp us in choosing the appropriate WG, it does show that the proposal solves= a problem that some communities have=2E [1] https://www=2Ew3=2Eorg/2017/dxwg/ [2] https://w3c=2Egithub=2Eio/dx-connegp/connegp-implementation-report/ Best, Lars From nobody Sat Mar 20 14:43:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B23DC3A2B2E; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 14:43:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.349 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.349 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.248, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=microsoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F525iyGwE0ce; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 14:43:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NAM06-BL2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr650133.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.65.133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A8753A2B2D; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 14:43:35 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=JXnlJGAiFtVWfttSYzzDWc2KiAXZRdGelJR3UXEg/IV0EEI2XA1wnguJ7cquIT3yDSuU4dHuXQ+qEjzI4Rr2OYI1T0MzcxRVlZPJ5uhsOSKRWMcrhRLr5Yl2YoK1ZMTaAa1wHPr0Vx3Bnrn7Q2PInatrVGkYiOVB2A0JUO8zGrEbWxGK12vv2fNkMD++yKrfnrUqAYy76gWNE17b1sFx49iYPtuF/uf9NzK48NIpno9rpIUmD2FqSppvKPXaP2DwsxOqQsmzwsT9q0Lb/zaC9Ymh0/QBak7wT5ZKZ/XXI7NjV15flzcrmsT/Df3w/jaLx4yVDxnawUvvcy+lYpXSvA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=AkfXsBfrSlr7EIDvNKiW1H+zMsXkckXUq18IrweZ6iw=; b=KvZQMx5tAqJUkWnGfTHp0FnOghYEpFy4JborPXd0ufe6f7GR2rLIKnAYHHhoAO4VaVjLIS6XkruoY01/YIKBGfvG7W/vhWwqbJyQMR0sah/BAPKMNyMPfzA4xc3iw81eADxp6lSR8suqJFycqXfSf7Aa/grxakajX94vDJ7/Bm1iYhsi0+yMBXRLmPvzBoelwDPI9U3bYlZr+rPAuJj4S/s/VC7bxXTGN8kKyrInswGYwXS3xIpdM/fU6ffIpjN0vP3z2SrjTKr3e+IKUD+AVBq8hCLouVF3BfCJN1hSL23azLw3UR9uSxaYe08j9MeXk0BnuGLtFtRz/s6nVwGULg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=microsoft.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=microsoft.com; dkim=pass header.d=microsoft.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=selector2; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=AkfXsBfrSlr7EIDvNKiW1H+zMsXkckXUq18IrweZ6iw=; b=TvWJD08AXku/Du0GuM1i6nmLYgc98KasVXQc25xPxyeuQ/0mBm0x3Cvi9dADNNUIHOQSKaUHLXmRQXPxgh3aF8te66bJKb+c90bCBURHOHj1H7DN9Gu8YOBvJmXF5p6kstAsWdNRiBYoD5uwzZ7YwfvzSikVsoSaCmZxMI4LImE= Received: from MW2PR00MB0395.namprd00.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:302:9::31) by MW2PR00MB0315.namprd00.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:302:9::10) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3996.0; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 21:43:23 +0000 Received: from MW2PR00MB0395.namprd00.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::e8c2:4fd2:53ce:14df]) by MW2PR00MB0395.namprd00.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::e8c2:4fd2:53ce:14df%7]) with mapi id 15.20.4006.000; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 21:43:22 +0000 From: Darrel Miller To: "lars.svensson@web.de" , "Kirsty.p@ncsc.gov.uk" , "dispatch@ietf.org" CC: "httpapi@ietf.org" , "Ruben Verborgh (UGent-imec)" , "hvdsomp@gmail.com" Thread-Topic: [dispatch] HTTP profile negotiation -- implementation evidence (was: HTTP profile negotiation - httpapi?) 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boundary="_000_MW2PR00MB03957DE17FAC759997528C4BF0679MW2PR00MB0395namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: MW2PR00MB0395.namprd00.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 23eeab3b-1121-4360-5d73-08d8ebe92f80 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 20 Mar 2021 21:43:22.8524 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 9s/JnivqfHoH38OYNhMt59AqiO066QjreZ+uoq0sQa2h+yR7H+WaXpfLVOExA6ZFZ6u0Q8PU5vGkstoNvDc5hw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MW2PR00MB0315 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] HTTP profile negotiation -- implementation evidence (was: HTTP profile negotiation - httpapi?) X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 21:43:38 -0000 --_000_MW2PR00MB03957DE17FAC759997528C4BF0679MW2PR00MB0395namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable First off, as a co-chair of the HTTPAPI working group, apologies for not be= ing present in the dispatch meeting. Speaking as an individual, my concern with this proposal is that while I do= understand the value that this proposal brings, my experience is that the = vast majority of API practitioners do not care. Trying to sell the value = of self-descriptive HTTP responses has mostly fallen on deaf ears for the l= ast 15 years, and I don't see anything that is changing that sentiment. The notion of using profile to further qualify a media type is something th= at a number of people in the industry have tried to promote for years and i= t has gained very little traction. I don't believe standardization of nego= tiation and discovery will change that. Fundamentally, most API practitioners don't see the negative system impact = of coupling a resource identifier with response semantics. When they call = GET /customer and they get application/json back they don't see a problem = with assuming the properties of that payload contain customer information. = Sure, it violates REST's self-descriptive constraint, but try convincing a= n API developer to care. I spent many years trying unsuccessfully. The po= pularity of API description formats is evidence that devs don't care about = the coupling introduced by connecting response semantics with resource iden= tifiers. In the dispatch meeting, the assertion was made that profiles enable versio= ning. But so does changing the resource identifier, which is the common pr= actice today. I have zero technical objections to the principles presented in the RFC, in= fact I support them. But I strongly believe that history has demonstrated= that they will not get mainstream adoption and hence I am reluctant to sup= port the httpapi working group spending time on the standardization effort. Perhaps I am wrong to think that success of adoption should be a criterion = for standardization. Maybe if some segment of the community will benefit, = then that meets the bar. I'm fairly new to the process of WGs so I am open= to guidance here. Thanks, Darrel --_000_MW2PR00MB03957DE17FAC759997528C4BF0679MW2PR00MB0395namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
First off, as a co-chair of the HTTPAPI working group, apologies for not be= ing present in the dispatch meeting.

Speaking as an individual, my concern with t= his proposal is that while I do understand the value that this proposal bri= ngs, my experience is that the vast majority of API practitioners do not care.   Trying to sell the = value of self-descriptive HTTP responses has mostly fallen on deaf ears for= the last 15 years, and I don't see anything that is changing that sentimen= t.  

The notion of using profile to further quali= fy a media type is something that a number of people in the industry have t= ried to promote for years and it has gained very little traction.  I don't believe standardization of nego= tiation and discovery will change that.

Fundamentally, most API practitioners don't = see the negative system impact of coupling a resource identifier with respo= nse semantics.  When they call GET /customer  and they get application/json back they don't see a proble= m with assuming the properties of that payload contain customer information= .  Sure, it violates REST's self-descriptive constraint, but try convi= ncing an API developer to care.  I spent many years trying unsuccessfully.  The popularity of API description forma= ts is evidence that devs don't care about the coupling introduced by connec= ting response semantics with resource identifiers.

In the dispatch meeting, the assertion was m= ade that profiles enable versioning.  But so does changing the resourc= e identifier, which is the common practice today.
 
I have zero technical objections to the prin= ciples presented in the RFC, in fact I support them.  But I strongly b= elieve that history has demonstrated that they will not get mainstream adoption and hence I am reluctant to support = the httpapi working group spending time on the standardization effort. = ; 

Perhaps I am wrong to think that success of = adoption should be a criterion for standardization.  Maybe if some seg= ment of the community will benefit, then that meets the bar.  I'm fairly new to the process of WGs so I am ope= n to guidance here.

Thanks,

Darrel


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GEMhVCyP22kAqASqpr3GdR30c8potliznz2QXkAWljaSG1DwS9ASYtYpj3Q6YgOnjnXquVjNMSEk wfvezW7wicnGAmPCdD02.rjEE3VmghepJfFhMdTe9z4Titai3G8xfQxbAZeVrHGXP2XYrXMHAZdp 8_xU9otwpGWRGAkKJ4tySRFyMbWCzZK.p7t.tcFuqSCsEGjxbniOPIEUWG9kKw_S58uDtZglnFVf ztcGL77GZNue44i3SD3IlfopEQOt6RHb2p78XAUvbkczB7IuOViFIbm1suRBTE1Lg87jQyrSzyCe Gt6auIVR95P_YfcaOJSuLbqu04Jg2s4fw0RwGIj2T3sTwt6Un_.0i50ev0GNoaZZR9BxrWeAXUne BQWiD1Kdk4B3NS7CxIhdJ2dStw9ITwV7SkgXK_wI4RVc.jj6h0zzUU9SppRZU7tP67vBd7DAv0Ta yZwN8ZrtG1pdep9u5eYIQcK__44cvwQ8T8BstXIeEfQY11TCA5uAjFhcr1iXHshKAyEGa1.OJe5S L7Ow8xBpjVnXJkzD4qEd7sr1tDn3ryXcW12P_n0dTgjPSGGS6q8NzGvtTNnevKelk1BS0X9dNUpl ytU5_YbItXet2QY4SYyKHCjpI8bhuLjJxU8tbSYqcZhA_ X-Sonic-MF: Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic303.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 21 Mar 2021 00:27:37 +0000 Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 00:17:24 +0000 (UTC) From: Mike Amundsen Reply-To: Mike Amundsen To: "lars.svensson@web.de" , "Kirsty.p@ncsc.gov.uk" , "dispatch@ietf.org" , Darrel Miller Cc: "Ruben Verborgh (UGent-imec)" , "httpapi@ietf.org" , "hvdsomp@gmail.com" Message-ID: <1711449802.2238336.1616285844270@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2238335_508862020.1616285844268" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.17936 YMailNorrin Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/89.0.4389.90 Safari/537.36 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [httpapi] HTTP profile negotiation -- implementation evidence (was: HTTP profile negotiation - httpapi?) X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 00:27:40 -0000 ------=_Part_2238335_508862020.1616285844268 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The ability to negotiate profiles has been an underlying assumption for the= ALPS[1] media type -- now ten years on. I think there are a number=C2=A0valuable=C2=A0use cases for this idea and I= 'd be happy to see it find a home in the HTTPAPI working group. No matter where it ends up, I support it and would be happy to help it alon= g. [1]=C2=A0draft-amundsen-richardson-foster-alps-06 - Application-Level Profi= le Semantics (ALPS) |=20 |=20 | |=20 draft-amundsen-richardson-foster-alps-06 - Application-Level Profile Sem... Application-Level Profile Semantics (ALPS) (Internet-Draft, 2021) | | | MCA Mike Amundsen=20 mamund@yahoo.com=20 On Saturday, March 20, 2021, 05:43:59 PM EDT, Darrel Miller wrote: =20 =20 #yiv0976507746 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}First off, as a co-chair o= f the HTTPAPI working group, apologies for not being present in the dispatc= h meeting. Speaking as an individual, my concern with this proposal is that while I do= understand the value that this proposal brings, my experience is that the = vast majority of API practitioners do not care.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Trying to sell = the value of self-descriptive HTTP responses has mostly fallen on deaf ears= for the last 15 years, and I don't see anything that is changing that sent= iment.=C2=A0=C2=A0 The notion of using profile to further qualify a media type is something th= at a number of people in the industry have tried to promote for years and i= t has gained very little traction.=C2=A0 I don't believe standardization of= negotiation and discovery will change that. Fundamentally, most API practitioners don't see the negative system impact = of coupling a resource identifier with response semantics.=C2=A0 When they = call GET /customer=C2=A0 and they get application/json back they don't see = a problem with assuming the properties of that payload contain customer inf= ormation.=C2=A0 Sure, it violates REST's self-descriptive constraint, but t= ry convincing an API developer to care.=C2=A0 I spent many years trying uns= uccessfully.=C2=A0 The popularity of API description formats is evidence th= at devs don't care about the coupling introduced by connecting response sem= antics with resource identifiers. In the dispatch meeting, the assertion was made that profiles enable versio= ning.=C2=A0 But so does changing the resource identifier, which is the comm= on practice today.=C2=A0I have zero technical objections to the principles = presented in the RFC, in fact I support them.=C2=A0 But I strongly believe = that history has demonstrated that they will not get mainstream adoption an= d hence I am reluctant to support the httpapi working group spending time o= n the standardization effort.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Perhaps I am wrong to think that success of adoption should be a criterion = for standardization.=C2=A0 Maybe if some segment of the community will bene= fit, then that meets the bar.=C2=A0 I'm fairly new to the process of WGs so= I am open to guidance here. Thanks, Darrel --=20 httpapi mailing list httpapi@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpapi =20 ------=_Part_2238335_508862020.1616285844268 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The ability to negotiate profiles has been an u= nderlying assumption for the ALPS[1] media type -- now ten years on.
I think there are a number valuable use cases for th= is idea and I'd be happy to see it find a home in the HTTPAPI working group= .

No matter where it ends up, I support it and wou= ld be happy to help it along.






MCA
Mike Amundsen
mamund@yahoo.com
=


=20
=20
On Saturday, March 20, 2021, 05:43:59 PM EDT, Darrel Mi= ller <darrel.miller=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:


First off, as a co-chair of the HTTPAPI working group, apologies for not be= ing present in the dispatch meeting.

Speaking as an individual, my concern with this p= roposal is that while I do understand the value that this proposal brings, = my experience is that the vast majority of API practitioners do not care.   Trying to sell the = value of self-descriptive HTTP responses has mostly fallen on deaf ears for= the last 15 years, and I don't see anything that is changing that sentimen= t.  

The notion of using profile to further qualify a = media type is something that a number of people in the industry have tried = to promote for years and it has gained very little traction.  I don't believe standardization of nego= tiation and discovery will change that.

Fundamentally, most API practitioners don't see t= he negative system impact of coupling a resource identifier with response s= emantics.  When they call GET /customer  and they get application/json back they don't see a proble= m with assuming the properties of that payload contain customer information= .  Sure, it violates REST's self-descriptive constraint, but try convi= ncing an API developer to care.  I spent many years trying unsuccessfully.  The popularity of API description forma= ts is evidence that devs don't care about the coupling introduced by connec= ting response semantics with resource identifiers.

In the dispatch meeting, the assertion was made t= hat profiles enable versioning.  But so does changing the resource ide= ntifier, which is the common practice today.
 
I have zero technical objections to the principle= s presented in the RFC, in fact I support them.  But I strongly believ= e that history has demonstrated that they will not get mainstream adoption and hence I am reluctant to support = the httpapi working group spending time on the standardization effort. = ; 

Perhaps I am wrong to think that success of adopt= ion should be a criterion for standardization.  Maybe if some segment = of the community will benefit, then that meets the bar.  I'm fairly new to the process of WGs so I am ope= n to guidance here.

Thanks,

Darrel


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