From suresh.krishnan@ericsson.com Wed Apr 10 09:53:41 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D771521F8ED4 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2013 09:53:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wFqFwYOnyXps for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2013 09:53:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg21.ericsson.net (usevmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49D2121F8ECE for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2013 09:53:38 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c6180641-b7faf6d00000096b-64-5165991103c9 Received: from EUSAAHC007.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.93]) by usevmg21.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 06.B6.02411.11995615; Wed, 10 Apr 2013 18:53:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eusaamw0712.eamcs.ericsson.se (147.117.20.181) by EUSAAHC007.ericsson.se (147.117.188.93) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.318.4; Wed, 10 Apr 2013 12:53:36 -0400 Received: from [142.133.180.233] (147.117.20.214) by smtps-am.internal.ericsson.com (147.117.20.181) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.3.279.1; Wed, 10 Apr 2013 12:53:36 -0400 Message-ID: <5165987C.3060209@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 12:51:08 -0400 From: Suresh Krishnan User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130308 Thunderbird/17.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrHJMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPrK7gzNRAg90H9Syu3V7B4sDosWTJ T6YAxigum5TUnMyy1CJ9uwSujHWrjrIWSFYsuj6ZtYFRuIuRg0NCwETi67LILkZOIFNM4sK9 9WxdjFwcQgJHGSW6Tu1jhHD2MEocufsdKrOdUWLV/AlsIC28AtoSa38cAbNZBFQlnj3qYQax 2YCmbtj5mQnEFhUIk9h7YRpUvaDEyZlPWEBsEQEJiW/Tb7GD2MICvBLTltxnhzhDUmLLi3Yw m1lAT2LK1RZGCFteYvvbOWDzhQQ0Jbau+c46gVFgFpKxs5C0zELSsoCReRUjR2lxalluupHh JkZgmB2TYHPcwbjgk+UhRmkOFiVx3lDXCwFCAumJJanZqakFqUXxRaU5qcWHGJk4OKUaGHUS RPZNiLOYcfPbjXDlSYWCZdOe2n3Y+UxRcuv0fzc8tr5o1LX7fFghyV/qybyjTolrs5VZ3Y/z XnWOudpy/kvYGp7361eHR6VEOdZx3GqYIK7H8/bTywyFoIAFVzlvvjFQ4D8kUGl+lePof/Ht 1h9VFvepa52sfyit0HHsXP1xnlz+vMkaWUosxRmJhlrMRcWJAP1mK+8BAgAA Subject: [Diversity] Test X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity design team mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 16:53:42 -0000 This is a test message. From ietf-secretariat@ietf.org Fri Apr 12 11:43:12 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AF4521F8E2C; Fri, 12 Apr 2013 11:43:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pbXD3QnItgSd; Fri, 12 Apr 2013 11:43:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A555E21F8DD1; Fri, 12 Apr 2013 11:43:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: IETF Secretariat To: IETF Announcement List X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 4.43.p4 Message-ID: <20130412184311.29067.5919.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 11:43:11 -0700 Cc: diversity@ietf.org, Jari Arkko Subject: [Diversity] New Non-WG Mailing List: diversity -- Diversity design team mailing list X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity design team mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 18:43:12 -0000 A new IETF non-working group email list has been created. List address: diversity@ietf.org Archive: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/diversity/current/maillist.ht= ml To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity Purpose: The diversity design team will work on identifying diversity relat= ed issues that the IETF faces and making practical recommendations that can help in this regard. This mailing list will be used for obtaining input from the community as well as for working discussions within the design team. For additional information, please contact the list administrators. From adrian@olddog.co.uk Fri Apr 12 13:04:08 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E69EC21F8E9E; Fri, 12 Apr 2013 13:04:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h3eHPBNOLzUw; Fri, 12 Apr 2013 13:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp4.iomartmail.com (asmtp4.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.175]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 127CC21F8E6E; Fri, 12 Apr 2013 13:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp4.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp4.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r3CK41XA015868; Fri, 12 Apr 2013 21:04:01 +0100 Received: from 950129200 ([31.108.113.120]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp4.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r3CK3waw015826 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 12 Apr 2013 21:03:59 +0100 From: "Adrian Farrel" To: , References: <20130412184311.29067.5919.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20130412184311.29067.5919.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 21:03:56 +0100 Message-ID: <06c901ce37b8$de8a0360$9b9e0a20$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Content-Language: en-gb Thread-Index: AQH5pc1eC3DJGSUH2PJQm1NV7kPvv5h8Inlw Cc: diversity@ietf.org, iesg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] New Non-WG Mailing List: diversity -- Diversity design team mailing list X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: Diversity design team mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 20:04:08 -0000 Hi, I am in no way telling you how to run this piece of work, and remain = grateful that you have agreed to put yourselves on the spot. But... :-) 1. I was really surprised to find that sign-up to this list is = moderated. 2. The charter of list usage seems conflicted =20 > This mailing list will be used for obtaining input > from the community as well as for working discussions within the = design > team. I suspect that this DT needs to operate a private list. There may be = many things that you want to say in public and discuss with the = community, but there will be things you wish to have as a closed = discussion as well. I'm confused how this list can serve both purposes, and if it is = intended for the first purpose, why subscription is moderated. Please take this as input, and not a topic needing discussion. Thanks, Adrian From dcrocker@bbiw.net Fri Apr 12 13:08:15 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B013621F8EAA; Fri, 12 Apr 2013 13:08:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bKrAETZh-n7t; Fri, 12 Apr 2013 13:08:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF61721F8E9E; Fri, 12 Apr 2013 13:08:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.211.51.212] (DNab4046ac.Stanford.EDU [171.64.70.172]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r3CK881d009996 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 12 Apr 2013 13:08:09 -0700 Message-ID: <516869A2.70402@bbiw.net> Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 13:08:02 -0700 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130328 Thunderbird/17.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: adrian@olddog.co.uk References: <20130412184311.29067.5919.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <06c901ce37b8$de8a0360$9b9e0a20$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <06c901ce37b8$de8a0360$9b9e0a20$@olddog.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Fri, 12 Apr 2013 13:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Cc: diversity@ietf.org, kathleen.moriarty@emc.com, suresh.krishnan@ericsson.com, iesg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] New Non-WG Mailing List: diversity -- Diversity design team mailing list X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity design team mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 20:08:15 -0000 On 4/12/2013 1:03 PM, Adrian Farrel wrote: > I suspect that this DT needs to operate a private list. There may be many things that you want to say in public and discuss with the community, but there will be things you wish to have as a closed discussion as well. > > I'm confused how this list can serve both purposes, and if it is intended for the first purpose, why subscription is moderated. After reading the description a few times, my best guess is that this /is/ the internal list. Hence, it will be used for the internal discussions but others can send messages to it. That is, it's like the iesg@, iab@ and iaoc@ lists. But as I say, that's just my guess... d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From suresh.krishnan@ericsson.com Fri Apr 12 14:22:37 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7401621F8976; Fri, 12 Apr 2013 14:22:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.549 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.549 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qicFPUV+ns5U; Fri, 12 Apr 2013 14:22:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg21.ericsson.net (usevmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAC3F21F88A0; Fri, 12 Apr 2013 14:22:35 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c6180641-b7faf6d00000096b-90-51687b1a3008 Received: from EUSAAHC008.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.96]) by usevmg21.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 53.FD.02411.A1B78615; Fri, 12 Apr 2013 23:22:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eusaamw0711.eamcs.ericsson.se (147.117.20.178) by EUSAAHC008.ericsson.se (147.117.188.96) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.318.4; Fri, 12 Apr 2013 17:22:34 -0400 Received: from [142.133.112.81] (147.117.20.214) by smtps-am.internal.ericsson.com (147.117.20.178) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.3.279.1; Fri, 12 Apr 2013 17:22:33 -0400 Message-ID: <51687A85.4030809@ericsson.com> Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 17:20:05 -0400 From: Suresh Krishnan User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130308 Thunderbird/17.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: References: <20130412184311.29067.5919.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <06c901ce37b8$de8a0360$9b9e0a20$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <06c901ce37b8$de8a0360$9b9e0a20$@olddog.co.uk> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrDLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPgq50dUagwdMGIYsfPTeYLa7dXsFi MePPRGaLV82/WBxYPI4cmc3isWTJTyaPFZtXMgYwR3HZpKTmZJalFunbJXBltE/dy14wiati wckm9gbGd+xdjJwcEgImEhua1jBD2GISF+6tZwOxhQSOMkrsmlvVxcgFZO9hlGj6N5MRIrGN UaJrrQSIzSugLdH4rRUsziKgKrH2Xj9YMxvI0J2fmUBsUYEwib0XprFB1AtKnJz5hAXEFhGQ lDhztgfsCGYBN4lZWx6AHSEskCzxbcZZFohd+RI/f7wDi3MKWEvcPXgS6lBJiS0v2qF69SSm XG1hhLDlJba/ncMM0aspsXXNd9YJjMKzkKyehaRlFpKWBYzMqxg5SotTy3LTjQw3MQJD/JgE m+MOxgWfLA8xSnOwKInzhrpeCBASSE8sSc1OTS1ILYovKs1JLT7EyMTBKdXA2Plsfrml2P96 gaTnm0rdCxyaa1+vvJzm8TKw7PnpeyuOcl/UjL562lXi4KUmexGezZOvft/iLxBYuOixcd35 BSJTZ70yYeTp0pcKlfC+uUb7t8jfknftwpn5LJEL63Xy932ITLVxvJ9h/ufbSe+2xRs0f2xv 6D58ULvV7NSj234clzddvOBjrMRSnJFoqMVcVJwIAO+EGjM/AgAA Cc: diversity@ietf.org, kathleen.moriarty@emc.com, iesg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] New Non-WG Mailing List: diversity -- Diversity design team mailing list X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity design team mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 21:22:37 -0000 Hi Adrian, On 04/12/2013 04:03 PM, Adrian Farrel wrote: > Hi, > > I am in no way telling you how to run this piece of work, and remain grateful that you have agreed to put yourselves on the spot. > > But... :-) > > 1. I was really surprised to find that sign-up to this list is moderated. > > 2. The charter of list usage seems conflicted > >> This mailing list will be used for obtaining input >> from the community as well as for working discussions within the design >> team. > > I suspect that this DT needs to operate a private list. There may be many things that you want to say in public and discuss with the community, but there will be things you wish to have as a closed discussion as well. The idea was this would be a design team private list that would allow non-subscribers to send in comments (similar to the nomcom list). I did not expect the list to be announced on ietf-announce. > > I'm confused how this list can serve both purposes, and if it is intended for the first purpose, why subscription is moderated. Makes sense. I will open up this list and request the creation of another list for private design team discussion. > > Please take this as input, and not a topic needing discussion. Input well taken. Thanks Suresh From barryleiba@gmail.com Fri Apr 12 14:48:42 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9D5821F8842; Fri, 12 Apr 2013 14:48:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.958 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.958 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XhRzABZL4MAa; Fri, 12 Apr 2013 14:48:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-la0-x233.google.com (mail-la0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c03::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C614A21F86BA; Fri, 12 Apr 2013 14:48:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-la0-f51.google.com with SMTP id fo12so2864361lab.24 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2013 14:48:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=lnJNeIoHL2B7fBjecWkKlvu8hQkdHA6oj9kKi8VCJCg=; b=UIzLa+IRpovcDvOEix2v+/R8gXhNRB/ysL8v1NDeY0TaaNPmJwAQ8o0yF1xz1QSHrx /i5+PgqOQNcNAoy7IL3lgWIhTlizKjxbNzoZWqmfN+p+hzkYFmf33VDE83PNsee5MFqD VWcdlEaaFJtH5PWdXwvi7Oea8djbNvipxhZhuDYmHKB7/27H44dJMnymAr+i+DcHRjgh PulXdw0csPy4G6+Kk87DZtZd1b4f/Eta/KCUEbJAy609gV2CtN3Su/OVv860Es9JOnjU m/rjvH7sjIHsBbKr187aUqvN17UVcoNgngxd7TGksobDpYEWx0A838ZoPz+/ijTiFrHV /ZIQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.143.42 with SMTP id sb10mr4997135lbb.54.1365803320610; Fri, 12 Apr 2013 14:48:40 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barryleiba@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.117.225 with HTTP; Fri, 12 Apr 2013 14:48:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <51687A85.4030809@ericsson.com> References: <20130412184311.29067.5919.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <06c901ce37b8$de8a0360$9b9e0a20$@olddog.co.uk> <51687A85.4030809@ericsson.com> Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 17:48:40 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: jEqS0bv_nCubFxGAQKyWPRSJYeg Message-ID: From: Barry Leiba To: Suresh Krishnan Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: Adrian Farrel , "kathleen.moriarty@emc.com" , IESG , diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] New Non-WG Mailing List: diversity -- Diversity design team mailing list X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 21:48:42 -0000 > The idea was this would be a design team private list that would allow > non-subscribers to send in comments (similar to the nomcom list). I did > not expect the list to be announced on ietf-announce. If you want a non-WG mailing list not to be announced, you have to explicitly tell the Secretariat than when you request creation. The default is to announce it. Barry From sm@resistor.net Sun Apr 14 13:37:24 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E44A21F929E for ; Sun, 14 Apr 2013 13:37:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mRZKSxbQtkTS for ; Sun, 14 Apr 2013 13:37:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86CB021F9298 for ; Sun, 14 Apr 2013 13:37:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.resistor.net (IDENT:sm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r3EKbG1f022364 for ; Sun, 14 Apr 2013 13:37:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1365971841; bh=gRpjBGuV1TRi9ggqOmnsgN7H1WxZW23wMAMeDvpLEZs=; h=Date:To:From:Subject; b=HY9b/88tX7uJs3HByncUactb+D1OT4ytAym4mIU266jgDmLnZfcHQFOkHcSsTtP6u WedG2y38UZfY3P8PSaL6jTU6F2pHg435Lv1PPeTFjxCqK9if/GoFG3bveGyAsYc51J 2acY1cdQvyUOkTx0VtZzzrfL9zHEr6dIzFqK3iEQ= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1365971841; i=@resistor.net; bh=gRpjBGuV1TRi9ggqOmnsgN7H1WxZW23wMAMeDvpLEZs=; h=Date:To:From:Subject; b=T0bJnOpeOnKpr5Op+NWJvUov8x9YGf5XbriTXk+9RPiex/VoXQIltOAam66voCb0K NMDdqotooRSXoFvfxeSCx8cKFvS+M2XT0QMegWWVPsKTLdznTw4VomzxwpB2QLJ7R4 HHBsqJKb4cJ0SWaKUohxoW37CFmb5RQmmy2FOyLI= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20130414103846.0b7dab40@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 13:28:46 -0700 To: diversity@ietf.org From: SM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [Diversity] Starting the discussion X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:37:24 -0000 Hello, To start the discussion I'll quote Jari Arkko: "we think of diversity as something that covers international participation, different cultures, gender, age, organisational background, and so on. While the IETF has become a very international organisation (with participants from 60 countries working on documents, for instance), there are many aspects of diversity where we could do much better. Overall participation is concentrated in some areas of the world, with little participation from Africa and South America, for instance. Similarly, while the IETF has some very active female participants and leadership members, the numbers are very small. Much of the work in the IETF is driven by large networking companies, yet academia and small companies would have more to give, and operational experience from additional operators would be similarly appreciated. Importantly, these disparities appear most prominently in our leadership" There is little participation from developing countries as the people identified to participate in the IETF do not do protocol-related work. I don't know whether anyone on this mailing list has seen http://www.africafornorway.no/ That's the approach currently being taken. It is not in the interest of anybody to raise the issue. The few people who attempt to participate in a discussion can receive disparaging remarks from regular IETF participants. Nobody raises any objection. I saw a case recently. I did not say anything as in my opinion there would not be any community support. Someone mentioned "be persistent" in a discussion on an unrelated IETF mailing list. The IETF culture discourages people who are not familiar with U.S. culture to participate. It's not that the people are not persistent; it's difficult to understand how the IETF works. In my opinion the IETF does not understand young people. There is a tendency to either take a paternalistic approach or else expect people to go through the same difficulties so that they can learn. If a person comes to an IETF meeting he/she will see women at the registration desk and maybe one or two women in a working group session. He/she won't see any women on the IESG. It looks like the usual stereotypes. The five women who went to the microphone were courageous enough to do so. It has been mentioned that the values are more important than who "represents" whom. The values do not map to what the average participant sees. There is a saying: "Not only must justice be done; it must also be seen to be done". Regards, -sm From hsantos@isdg.net Wed Apr 17 09:22:53 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21CDF21F856C for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 09:22:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Am4YdhjqKdmJ for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 09:22:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from secure.winserver.com (mail.santronics.com [208.247.131.9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5312821F8DDF for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 09:22:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; d=isdg.net; s=tms1; a=rsa-sha1; c=simple/relaxed; l=5001; t=1366215741; h=Received:Received: Message-ID:Date:From:To:Subject:Organization:List-ID; bh=M53iiLX HKBvW1Nml9ItgU8kzmSA=; b=hqvRkv4YS/t33za+prF6NaIuyrDvlLLw6GcxgW+ shOeRVE35jo23ioRAShd1/6ghSvkVXnxNwJ3L9vJgEHGG5hIxCFGu0R4gzl44Uds 375ivdYGSPLekAVXXfvv0gcY9VLhTdCpHR1a4hV1Ai0e19Dl/npsm7BIctUKrbX5 vfx0= Received: by winserver.com (Wildcat! SMTP Router v7.0.454.4) for diversity@ietf.org; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 12:22:21 -0400 Received: from [208.247.131.8] ([208.247.131.8]) by winserver.com (Wildcat! SMTP v7.0.454.4) with ESMTP id 714471289.1831.5716; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 12:22:20 -0400 Message-ID: <516ECBF8.7060001@isdg.net> Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 12:21:12 -0400 From: Hector Santos User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.2; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diversity@ietf.org References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130414103846.0b7dab40@elandnews.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20130414103846.0b7dab40@elandnews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Diversity] Defining the Diversity problems (was: Starting the discussion) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 16:22:53 -0000 Hi, I would like to get a good feel for what the IETF believes are the diversity problems, ones that are not helping it, i.e. causing problems, and thus we are seeking suggestions to improve the IETF as a whole? What are the diversity problems to solve/address? Diversity can mean many things as well. It could be the IETF is diversifying in its product lines, like addressing new problems other than the development of the Internet protocols and methods. Is this related to other forms of diversity? mindsets and philosophies? So far, it seems to me that the key diversity concerns falls into a gender/cultural vs everything else diversity issue. o Gender Diversity X International Diversity (completed??) X Electronic Diversity (completed?? anyone can "join" electronically) o Vendor Diversity o Diversity in Leadership o Diversity in Projects (working groups) o Diversity in Reviewers o Others? I think one of the main goals of diversity is how it addresses the questions for sense of fairness and conflicts of interest. One of the attributes of having lesser participation is more of the IETF projects are monopolized by the same folk(s), naturally. That can be good but also a problem in my view when the synergism is lost, input is not considered, etc. I think there are some process issues that are being exploited (because they are allowed) by IETF folks that is not always ideal. We see the pressures to expedite and "rubber stamp" the work efforts. As far as gender, well, I don't think the IETF has a copyright on this problem, nor do I believe it can find an ideal solution that will not include a quota system. Having asked the question of Human Resources folks and also dealing with it myself, every company and organization (especially those doing any form of work related to the federal government) that is concern about it, uses a quota system. I don't see how it can be avoided. But overall, I think the two (Gender/Culture vs Everything else) are totally different set of problems with two different sets of solutions. -- HLS On 4/14/2013 4:28 PM, SM wrote: > Hello, > > To start the discussion I'll quote Jari Arkko: > > "we think of diversity as something that covers international > participation, > different cultures, gender, age, organisational background, and so on. > While the IETF has become a very international organisation (with > participants from 60 countries working on documents, for instance), > there are many aspects of diversity where we could do much better. > Overall > participation is concentrated in some areas of the world, with little > participation from Africa and South America, for instance. Similarly, > while the IETF has some very active female participants and leadership > members, the numbers are very small. Much of the work in the IETF is > driven by large networking companies, yet academia and small companies > would have more to give, and operational experience from additional > operators would be similarly appreciated. > > Importantly, these disparities appear most prominently in our > leadership" > > There is little participation from developing countries as the people > identified to participate in the IETF do not do protocol-related work. > I don't know whether anyone on this mailing list has seen > http://www.africafornorway.no/ That's the approach currently being > taken. It is not in the interest of anybody to raise the issue. The > few people who attempt to participate in a discussion can receive > disparaging remarks from regular IETF participants. Nobody raises any > objection. I saw a case recently. I did not say anything as in my > opinion there would not be any community support. > > Someone mentioned "be persistent" in a discussion on an unrelated IETF > mailing list. The IETF culture discourages people who are not familiar > with U.S. culture to participate. It's not that the people are not > persistent; it's difficult to understand how the IETF works. > > In my opinion the IETF does not understand young people. There is a > tendency to either take a paternalistic approach or else expect people > to go through the same difficulties so that they can learn. > > If a person comes to an IETF meeting he/she will see women at the > registration desk and maybe one or two women in a working group > session. He/she won't see any women on the IESG. It looks like the > usual stereotypes. The five women who went to the microphone were > courageous enough to do so. > > It has been mentioned that the values are more important than who > "represents" whom. The values do not map to what the average > participant sees. There is a saying: "Not only must justice be done; it > must also be seen to be done". > > Regards, > -sm > > _______________________________________________ > diversity mailing list > diversity@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity > > From lars@netapp.com Wed Apr 17 10:27:22 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DA0821E8051 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 10:27:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1unNdeQ3EzNM for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 10:27:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx12.netapp.com (mx12.netapp.com [216.240.18.77]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93ACD21E804D for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 10:27:21 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.87,495,1363158000"; d="scan'208";a="41628492" Received: from smtp1.corp.netapp.com ([10.57.156.124]) by mx12-out.netapp.com with ESMTP; 17 Apr 2013 10:27:21 -0700 Received: from vmwexceht05-prd.hq.netapp.com (exchsmtp.hq.netapp.com [10.106.77.35]) by smtp1.corp.netapp.com (8.13.1/8.13.1/NTAP-1.6) with ESMTP id r3HHRKFP018993; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 10:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SACEXCMBX01-PRD.hq.netapp.com ([169.254.2.71]) by vmwexceht05-prd.hq.netapp.com ([10.106.77.35]) with mapi id 14.02.0342.003; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 10:27:20 -0700 From: "Eggert, Lars" To: Hector Santos Thread-Topic: [Diversity] Defining the Diversity problems (was: Starting the discussion) Thread-Index: AQHOO4fk9wJ1CLjmGkKPHj/BzAbKXJjbH+iA Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 17:27:19 +0000 Message-ID: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130414103846.0b7dab40@elandnews.com> <516ECBF8.7060001@isdg.net> In-Reply-To: <516ECBF8.7060001@isdg.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.104.60.115] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "" Subject: Re: [Diversity] Defining the Diversity problems (was: Starting the discussion) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 17:27:22 -0000 Hi, On Apr 17, 2013, at 9:21, Hector Santos wrote: > So far, it seems to me that the key diversity concerns falls into a gende= r/cultural vs everything else diversity issue. I agree that the most pressing diversity "dimensions" are probably gender a= nd cultural/regional background. Lack of diversity along those dimensions is an issue both in terms of the g= eneral body of IETF participants as well we in terms of the group of IETF l= eaders (WG chairs, I*, etc.) I'd personally be very happy if we could increase diversity along those two= dimensions in those two sets of people. Yes, there are probably other dive= rsity dimensions, and there are probably other sets of people and things we= could apply these and other dimensions to. But to me personally, those are= secondary. The set of attendees is the pool out of which leadership positions get fill= ed. So measures and processes to make the IETF an attractive place for all = kinds of folks to participate in should be one of our focus areas. As shoul= d measures/processes that will bring new attendees closer into the IETF onc= e they have begun to attend, such as training them for leadership positions= . And then there are the various leadership selection processes (chair select= ion, NomCom appointments, various other appointments done by I*, etc.) For = many of those, we already have detailed processes, and I personally wouldn'= t want to spend much energy on trying to patch them in the hopes of increas= ing diversity. I hope that this will resolve itself when the attendee pool = is more diverse. Half-baked thought: In the meantime, instead of tweaking selection processe= s, maybe it would be a fist step to simply ask the various selecting bodies= and individuals for a pledge. The pledge would be that when they pick some= one for a leadership position, they take a moment to ask themselves "if we'= re selecting a white male person, is he really the best selection for this = position, in terms of individual qualification and in terms of making sure = that the diversity of the community is represented in its leadership?" Lars From bs7652@att.com Wed Apr 17 11:51:42 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23EA421E8085 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 11:51:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VvLppnclr8OQ for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 11:51:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nbfkord-smmo06.seg.att.com (nbfkord-smmo06.seg.att.com [209.65.160.94]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BC2621E808D for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 11:51:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unknown [144.160.20.145] (EHLO mlpd192.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com) by nbfkord-smmo06.seg.att.com(mxl_mta-6.15.0-1) over TLS secured channel with ESMTP id 73fee615.0.271431.00-239.757208.nbfkord-smmo06.seg.att.com (envelope-from ); Wed, 17 Apr 2013 18:51:36 +0000 (UTC) X-MXL-Hash: 516eef3809796b23-43393c11eb00ff1bd9aa9314038fa324efdd5aa9 Received: from enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mlpd192.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r3HIpZrj013702; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:51:35 -0400 Received: from alpi132.aldc.att.com (alpi132.aldc.att.com [130.8.217.2]) by mlpd192.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r3HIpUMM013649 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:51:33 -0400 Received: from GAALPA1MSGHUB9A.ITServices.sbc.com (gaalpa1msghub9a.itservices.sbc.com [130.8.36.87]) by alpi132.aldc.att.com (RSA Interceptor); Wed, 17 Apr 2013 19:51:23 +0100 Received: from GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.8.36.69]) by GAALPA1MSGHUB9A.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.8.36.87]) with mapi id 14.02.0342.003; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:51:23 -0400 From: "STARK, BARBARA H" To: "Eggert, Lars" , Hector Santos Thread-Topic: [Diversity] Defining the Diversity problems (was: Starting the discussion) Thread-Index: AQHOO5DZwOcUwUaQNkS/7V18bvqV8Zjar/4w Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 18:51:23 +0000 Message-ID: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E611302A7587@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130414103846.0b7dab40@elandnews.com> <516ECBF8.7060001@isdg.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.199.78.119] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RSA-Inspected: yes X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Spam: [F=0.2000000000; CM=0.500; S=0.200(2010122901)] X-MAIL-FROM: X-SOURCE-IP: [144.160.20.145] X-AnalysisOut: [v=2.0 cv=fOqOK+me c=1 sm=0 a=ZRNLZ4dFUbCvG8UMqPvVAA==:17 a] X-AnalysisOut: [=XF2aQeIDtRMA:10 a=wrpVkw6ILY4A:10 a=ofMgfj31e3cA:10 a=BLc] X-AnalysisOut: [eEmwcHowA:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=zQP7CpKOAAAA:8 a=XIqpo32R] X-AnalysisOut: [AAAA:8 a=lxkaMQmztBoA:10 a=HsqoFPT8AAAA:8 a=9lthqcqwu1-mv8] X-AnalysisOut: [Hvc7YA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=_4C9BQRGHMYA:10] Cc: "" Subject: Re: [Diversity] Defining the Diversity problems (was: Starting the discussion) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 18:51:42 -0000 > On Apr 17, 2013, at 9:21, Hector Santos wrote: > > So far, it seems to me that the key diversity concerns falls into a > gender/cultural vs everything else diversity issue. >=20 > I agree that the most pressing diversity "dimensions" are probably gender > and cultural/regional background. >=20 > Lack of diversity along those dimensions is an issue both in terms of the > general body of IETF participants as well we in terms of the group of IET= F > leaders (WG chairs, I*, etc.) >=20 > I'd personally be very happy if we could increase diversity along those t= wo > dimensions in those two sets of people. Yes, there are probably other > diversity dimensions, and there are probably other sets of people and thi= ngs > we could apply these and other dimensions to. But to me personally, those > are secondary. I would like to suggest that one of the problems that IETF has is not just = about who the attendees/participants/leadership are, but about the behavior= that is tolerated, espoused, and demonstrated by all of these. I'm not per= sonally aware of overly bad behavior being espoused or demonstrated by lead= ers, but I am keenly aware of it among some attendees and participants. Whi= ch suggests to me that there is not a very strong message from leadership t= o discourage it (i.e., it is being tolerated). I'd also like to mention (in case IETF members aren't aware) that IETF has = a rather bad reputation in the operator community as being an incredibly ho= stile place to do business, where operators are routinely insulted and bash= ed (as an industry), and discussions around operational complexity are trea= ted dismissively and derisively. v6ops is an exception; an exception that h= ad to specifically be created as a place where operators would feel "safe" = in trying to have those discussions. Personally, I try to steer standards e= fforts that I can influence anywhere else but IETF, because I dislike worki= ng in a hostile environment. In talking with other employees of operators, = I've concluded I'm not the only one who feels this way. I work in a variety= of other SDOs and SIGs, where there is strong and often contentious discus= sion, and where behavior of segments of the industry or specific companies = is often directly discussed. But nowhere have I experienced such open hosti= lity towards operators as in IETF. BTW, I notice there's a distinct lack of= operators in the IETF leadership. I wonder if there's any correlation.=20 This sort of diversity does fall into the "everything else" category, and i= t may be something that IETF doesn't want to address. IETF may be happy wit= h its limited operator participation -- I don't know. I do suspect, though,= that if there were less tolerance (by all in IETF) of foul language, openl= y hostile and insulting comments (directed at anybody), and other bad behav= ior, that it might improve the willingness of more women and people from ot= her regions to participate, as well as people who work for operators. But s= uch expectations would have to come from the top. Please know, I'm not saying all of this to belittle IETF. I'm saying this b= ecause I truly would like for IETF to become an organization that doesn't m= ake me cringe whenever I think about doing work within its confines. The ar= mor and bullet-proof vests I surround myself with to participate in IETF di= scussions is about 10 times thicker than the armor I surround myself with f= or other SDOs and SIGs. And it's not the technical comments I'm defending a= gainst. It's the irrational FUD and the ones that get personal. Barbara From lars@netapp.com Wed Apr 17 12:17:34 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69A7B21F869C for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 12:17:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CRYwRyljxW+K for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 12:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx12.netapp.com (mx12.netapp.com [216.240.18.77]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D684021F86CA for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 12:17:33 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.87,495,1363158000"; d="scan'208";a="41673090" Received: from smtp1.corp.netapp.com ([10.57.156.124]) by mx12-out.netapp.com with ESMTP; 17 Apr 2013 12:17:33 -0700 Received: from vmwexceht03-prd.hq.netapp.com (vmwexceht03-prd.hq.netapp.com [10.106.76.241]) by smtp1.corp.netapp.com (8.13.1/8.13.1/NTAP-1.6) with ESMTP id r3HJHXCJ021030; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 12:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SACEXCMBX01-PRD.hq.netapp.com ([169.254.2.71]) by vmwexceht03-prd.hq.netapp.com ([10.106.76.241]) with mapi id 14.02.0342.003; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 12:17:32 -0700 From: "Eggert, Lars" To: "STARK, BARBARA H" Thread-Topic: [Diversity] Defining the Diversity problems (was: Starting the discussion) Thread-Index: AQHOO5yYN65GrKAsFU+oUKx3BfOK5ZjbPomA Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 19:17:32 +0000 Message-ID: <832D3BF4-7A27-4DC7-8F19-BB8844FCD985@netapp.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130414103846.0b7dab40@elandnews.com> <516ECBF8.7060001@isdg.net> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E611302A7587@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> In-Reply-To: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E611302A7587@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.104.60.118] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "" , Hector Santos Subject: Re: [Diversity] Defining the Diversity problems (was: Starting the discussion) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 19:17:34 -0000 Hi, On Apr 17, 2013, at 11:51, "STARK, BARBARA H" wrote: > I would like to suggest that one of the problems that IETF has is not jus= t about who the attendees/participants/leadership are, but about the behavi= or that is tolerated, espoused, and demonstrated by all of these. I'm not p= ersonally aware of overly bad behavior being espoused or demonstrated by le= aders, but I am keenly aware of it among some attendees and participants. W= hich suggests to me that there is not a very strong message from leadership= to discourage it (i.e., it is being tolerated). I'm sorry to hear this. Have you brought these to the attention of the IESG= or IAB? I'm sure that neither condones any such behavior, but in order to = send a strong message when such things do occur, they/we need to know about= it.=20 (We could obviously publish a code of conduct, but that would necessarily b= e a pretty generic statement. Still, it may be useful to do so, and maybe l= ink it to the Note Well.) There has been one instance in one of the IRTF RGs recently where a clearly= inappropriate image was included in a presentation by someone new to the I= ETF. Since I was in the room, I could react, but otherwise I may not have h= eard about it and would not have been able to do something about it. > I'd also like to mention (in case IETF members aren't aware) that IETF ha= s a rather bad reputation in the operator community as being an incredibly = hostile place to do business Right. I also think that - for example - we have successfully scared away m= uch of the research community from the IETF, which is one reason why potent= ially disrupting technologies that are coming out of university research (s= uch as SDN & OpenFlow) are being developed in new fora rather than here. > This sort of diversity does fall into the "everything else" category, and= it may be something that IETF doesn't want to address. I don't think the IETF has made any such decision; my earlier email just tr= ied to summarize what I think we should focus on. More operators - and more= researchers, for that matter - would make the organization stronger. The r= eason I tried to argue for a narrow scope, i.e., picking a few key diversit= y issues - at least initially -and doing something concrete about them soon= er rather than later, is that otherwise I fear this list will turn into a d= iscussion club and be ineffective. I'd love for us to actually TRY something by the Berlin or at least Vancouv= er meeting. Lars From stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie Wed Apr 17 12:30:51 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 981F721F894B for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 12:30:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ON1W6BLcjkxm for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 12:30:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7B5521F8842 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 12:30:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id E670BBE58; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 20:30:28 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iHLnLnK7WJEq; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 20:30:27 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.87.48.4] (unknown [86.42.24.82]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C44C4BE53; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 20:30:27 +0100 (IST) Message-ID: <516EF853.3010803@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 20:30:27 +0100 From: Stephen Farrell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130329 Thunderbird/17.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Eggert, Lars" References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130414103846.0b7dab40@elandnews.com> <516ECBF8.7060001@isdg.net> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E611302A7587@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> <832D3BF4-7A27-4DC7-8F19-BB8844FCD985@netapp.com> In-Reply-To: <832D3BF4-7A27-4DC7-8F19-BB8844FCD985@netapp.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "" , Hector Santos , "STARK, BARBARA H" Subject: Re: [Diversity] Defining the Diversity problems X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 19:30:51 -0000 I've no clear view as to what the operator community think but would be interested to find out and agree it'd be better to have more of 'em about. I think its easy to agree to not condone bad behaviour. But one person's robust debate is another's foul language maybe so for this thread to be useful someone sometime would need to try figure out what's problematic and what's not, which I guess can mostly only be done via illustrative examples about which folks would wildly disagree. (I'm not asking that we do that now via email, that'd likely be counterproductive, someone should ponder it a bit more first probably.) On 04/17/2013 08:17 PM, Eggert, Lars wrote: > Right. I also think that - for example - we have successfully scared away much of the research community from the IETF, which is one reason why potentially disrupting technologies that are coming out of university research (such as SDN & OpenFlow) are being developed in new fora rather than here. But I don't think this is right. I think by far the most important factor there is that academics are now so publication (and publication metric) obsessed that they don't care about the IETF since our publications simply don't count in that universe. If you can get a sigcomm paper via ns-2 that's much more productive than spending a couple of years haggling with the real Internet. I'd be surprised if they had been scared off by bad or good behaviour. They could be attracted back if RFCs or chairing counted for tenure maybe, if someone could try encourage that. It'd probably take a few top-ranked universities doing it publicly or something though for it to start happening. S. From narten@us.ibm.com Wed Apr 17 12:54:59 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10CAC21E8096 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 12:54:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.388 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.388 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.212, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8AO2TJVQ6D1W for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 12:54:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from e9.ny.us.ibm.com (e9.ny.us.ibm.com [32.97.182.139]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD4A221F8972 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 12:54:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from /spool/local by e9.ny.us.ibm.com with IBM ESMTP SMTP Gateway: Authorized Use Only! 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Violators will be prosecuted; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 15:54:55 -0400 Received: from d01relay03.pok.ibm.com (d01relay03.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.235]) by d01dlp03.pok.ibm.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9275C9002A for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 15:54:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d01av03.pok.ibm.com (d01av03.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.217]) by d01relay03.pok.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v10.0) with ESMTP id r3HJsrxL282978 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 15:54:53 -0400 Received: from d01av03.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av03.pok.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.13.1/NCO v10.0 AVout) with ESMTP id r3HJsrXK025992 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 16:54:53 -0300 Received: from cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com (sig-9-49-146-246.mts.ibm.com [9.49.146.246]) by d01av03.pok.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.13.1/NCO v10.0 AVin) with ESMTP id r3HJsqxK025922 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 17 Apr 2013 16:54:53 -0300 Received: from cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com (8.14.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id r3HJsnGh013993; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 15:54:49 -0400 Message-Id: <201304171954.r3HJsnGh013993@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> From: Thomas Narten To: "STARK, BARBARA H" In-reply-to: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E611302A7587@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130414103846.0b7dab40@elandnews.com> <516ECBF8.7060001@isdg.net> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E611302A7587@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> Comments: In-reply-to "STARK, BARBARA H" message dated "Wed, 17 Apr 2013 18:51:23 -0000." Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 15:54:49 -0400 X-TM-AS-MML: No X-Content-Scanned: Fidelis XPS MAILER x-cbid: 13041719-7182-0000-0000-0000064999DB Cc: Hector Santos , "Eggert, Lars" , "" Subject: Re: [Diversity] Defining the Diversity problems (was: Starting the discussion) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 19:54:59 -0000 "STARK, BARBARA H" writes: > I would like to suggest that one of the problems that IETF has is > not just about who the attendees/participants/leadership are, but > about the behavior that is tolerated, espoused, and demonstrated by > all of these. I'm not personally aware of overly bad behavior being > espoused or demonstrated by leaders, but I am keenly aware of it > among some attendees and participants. Which suggests to me that > there is not a very strong message from leadership to discourage it > (i.e., it is being tolerated). What this suggests to me is that we may want to spend time on how to improve the overall participation "enviroment" of the IETF. If the environment turns folk away, we need to think seroiusly about changing the environment. This is of course not easy, but is part of the background that enables (or fosters) diversity issues more generally. One thing this will take is looking at specific examples (when they happen) and dealing with them in a direct way. It's easy to downplay individual incidents as "not that bad" or "exceptions", but they do have a way fo building up over time. I doubt raising these issues with the I* is enough. Has it been done? Has there been results? I personally know of one very outrageous example that occurred in Atlanta. But talking about it publically puts the target in a very awkward position and many folk don't want to do that because they fear the repurcussions. That this does indeed happen makes clear to me we have a real issue in this community. > I'd also like to mention (in case IETF members aren't aware) that > IETF has a rather bad reputation in the operator community as being > an incredibly hostile place to do business, where operators are > routinely insulted and bashed (as an industry), and discussions > around operational complexity are treated dismissively and > derisively. Yes. I've seen it and talked to operators that are now on the side lines saying "who are they to tell me that how I run my data center is stupid and I should just change it?" Part of this comes from an attitude among some IETFers that the louder (and more frequently) one shouts (whether what one says actually makes sense or not) is the way you get things done or "become a leader" in the IETF. That is an example of something the IETF has long tolerated and creates a negative environment. Thomas From kathleen.moriarty@emc.com Wed Apr 17 13:15:13 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F98621E8064 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 13:15:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GsiHEdBGKMi5 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 13:15:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexforward.lss.emc.com (hop-nat-141.emc.com [168.159.213.141]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DCFD21F878F for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 13:15:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hop04-l1d11-si01.isus.emc.com (HOP04-L1D11-SI01.isus.emc.com [10.254.111.54]) by mexforward.lss.emc.com (Switch-3.4.3/Switch-3.4.3) with ESMTP id r3HKF52k003997 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 17 Apr 2013 16:15:08 -0400 Received: from mailhub.lss.emc.com (mailhubhoprd05.lss.emc.com [10.254.222.129]) by hop04-l1d11-si01.isus.emc.com (RSA Interceptor); Wed, 17 Apr 2013 16:14:44 -0400 Received: from mxhub29.corp.emc.com (mxhub29.corp.emc.com [128.222.70.169]) by mailhub.lss.emc.com (Switch-3.4.3/Switch-3.4.3) with ESMTP id r3HKEP5X010237; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 16:14:43 -0400 Received: from mx15a.corp.emc.com ([169.254.1.81]) by mxhub29.corp.emc.com ([128.222.70.169]) with mapi; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 16:14:25 -0400 From: "Moriarty, Kathleen" To: Thomas Narten , "STARK, BARBARA H" Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 16:14:24 -0400 Thread-Topic: [Diversity] Defining the Diversity problems (was: Starting the discussion) Thread-Index: Ac47pYhoMPwfL1Z/StqJzgz4hMjZngAAH3+Q Message-ID: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130414103846.0b7dab40@elandnews.com> <516ECBF8.7060001@isdg.net> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E611302A7587@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> <201304171954.r3HJsnGh013993@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> In-Reply-To: <201304171954.r3HJsnGh013993@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-EMM-MHVC: 1 Cc: "Eggert, Lars" , Hector Santos , "" Subject: Re: [Diversity] Defining the Diversity problems (was: Starting the discussion) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 20:15:13 -0000 These are great pints and I think it seems evident that change is needed to= improve diversity. I do think stories are helpful, especially when someth= ing was done successfully to correct a situation. We can learn from this a= nd figure out how we can apply it more broadly to open up the environment t= o others. I would like to learn more about how this issue was fixed in v6o= ps and how that may be replicated (if appropriate). =20 I also had an experience in Atlanta where someone was very excited about hi= s work, and maybe the presentation could have been a little shorter, but it= was good. I personally appreciated seeing someone that excited about the = improvements in their work. A few comments were made by others sitting nea= r me (long-time attendees). I shut down the side conversation near me (in = a way that was well received), but that should not have been necessary. Th= ere were no derogatory comments, it just wasn't as friendly to newcomers. = Efforts like this will be needed to change the culture and it may be easier= to make them before the comments get worse (usually they progress).=20 Please keep the stories coming, preferably with solutions that worked! It = may be good to look at several examples and then take a step back to review= and determine improvements that can be made to existing programs/policies = or new ones that are needed... or methods that we could use to open up the = culture to diversity by improving the interactions and respect between part= icipants.=20 I have also participated in a few SDOs. I like the IETF format and experti= se of participants, but we could benefit if it were easier for diverse view= points to be represented. Thank you, Kathleen =20 -----Original Message----- From: diversity-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:diversity-bounces@ietf.org] On Beh= alf Of Thomas Narten Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 3:55 PM To: STARK, BARBARA H Cc: Hector Santos; Eggert, Lars; Subject: Re: [Diversity] Defining the Diversity problems (was: Starting the= discussion) "STARK, BARBARA H" writes: > I would like to suggest that one of the problems that IETF has is > not just about who the attendees/participants/leadership are, but > about the behavior that is tolerated, espoused, and demonstrated by > all of these. I'm not personally aware of overly bad behavior being > espoused or demonstrated by leaders, but I am keenly aware of it > among some attendees and participants. Which suggests to me that > there is not a very strong message from leadership to discourage it > (i.e., it is being tolerated). What this suggests to me is that we may want to spend time on how to improve the overall participation "enviroment" of the IETF. If the environment turns folk away, we need to think seroiusly about changing the environment. This is of course not easy, but is part of the background that enables (or fosters) diversity issues more generally.=20 One thing this will take is looking at specific examples (when they happen) and dealing with them in a direct way. It's easy to downplay individual incidents as "not that bad" or "exceptions", but they do have a way fo building up over time. I doubt raising these issues with the I* is enough. Has it been done? Has there been results? I personally know of one very outrageous example that occurred in Atlanta. But talking about it publically puts the target in a very awkward position and many folk don't want to do that because they fear the repurcussions. That this does indeed happen makes clear to me we have a real issue in this community. > I'd also like to mention (in case IETF members aren't aware) that > IETF has a rather bad reputation in the operator community as being > an incredibly hostile place to do business, where operators are > routinely insulted and bashed (as an industry), and discussions > around operational complexity are treated dismissively and > derisively. Yes. I've seen it and talked to operators that are now on the side lines saying "who are they to tell me that how I run my data center is stupid and I should just change it?" Part of this comes from an attitude among some IETFers that the louder (and more frequently) one shouts (whether what one says actually makes sense or not) is the way you get things done or "become a leader" in the IETF. That is an example of something the IETF has long tolerated and creates a negative environment. Thomas _______________________________________________ diversity mailing list diversity@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity From jari.arkko@piuha.net Wed Apr 17 13:17:32 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C0E021E8091 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 13:17:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.578 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.578 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ui8TQI3WFt7l for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 13:17:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC88921E8064 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 13:17:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4162C2CC50 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 23:17:30 +0300 (EEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at piuha.net Received: from p130.piuha.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (p130.piuha.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FmD6IbZpEtPW for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 23:17:29 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2a00:1d50:2::130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7588B2CC3C for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 23:17:29 +0300 (EEST) From: Jari Arkko Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 23:17:29 +0300 To: diversity@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.3 \(1503\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1503) Subject: Re: [Diversity] Starting the discussion X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 20:17:32 -0000 SM - Good to hear your thoughts on this. Some responses inline: > There is little participation from developing countries as the people = identified to participate in the IETF do not do protocol-related work. I = don't know whether anyone on this mailing list has seen = http://www.africafornorway.no/ That's the approach currently being = taken. It is not in the interest of anybody to raise the issue. The few = people who attempt to participate in a discussion can receive = disparaging remarks from regular IETF participants. Nobody raises any = objection. I saw a case recently. I did not say anything as in my = opinion there would not be any community support. I'm sorry if there are such cases. It really is not appropriate at all, = and I certainly support raising an objection. Or you could tell me and I = can take it up with the persons in question. FWIW, the IETF culture has=85 relatively aggressive discussion style. = The effect is not felt just by people from developing countries, = sometimes it hits the rest of us too. There are of course values even in = the aggressive style. In particular, it is a core value of the IETF to = be able to call out bad proposals. We want that to happen to ensure high = quality of our results. But you can do that in multiple ways. Someone = used the phrase "disagree without being disagreeable". You can be nice, = even if you deliver a negative message. > Someone mentioned "be persistent" in a discussion on an unrelated IETF = mailing list. The IETF culture discourages people who are not familiar = with U.S. culture to participate. It's not that the people are not = persistent; it's difficult to understand how the IETF works. Ok. > In my opinion the IETF does not understand young people. There is a = tendency to either take a paternalistic approach or else expect people = to go through the same difficulties so that they can learn. This I wholeheartedly agree with. And we really need to, if we are going = to stay relevant. Not just understand young people. But have them run = the networking design for the next decades.=20 And it is really not going to be just for the young people to follow the = same path we've taken. I've had the opportunity to compare communication = styles and Internet usage between different ages. =46rom my age to the = thirty somethings to late teenagers to ten year olds. It is just = incredibly amazing how different groups of people these are. When the 19 = year olds look like dinosaurs from last century when I compare them to = the 10 year olds, you know that some of us greybeards need to work = really hard to stay on the curve :-) > If a person comes to an IETF meeting he/she will see women at the = registration desk and maybe one or two women in a working group session. = He/she won't see any women on the IESG. It looks like the usual = stereotypes. The five women who went to the microphone were courageous = enough to do so. I think this may be a bit more pronounced right now than it generally = has been, particularly if you only look at the IESG. Over a longer = period of time, we've generally had women in the IESG. Even now, if you = look around you'll see at least some women in leadership. IAB. IAOC. = ISOC. Nomcom. Also, quite many extremely respected experts and leaders = of their technical fields. But yes, I wish there were more. > It has been mentioned that the values are more important than who = "represents" whom. The values do not map to what the average participant = sees. There is a saying: "Not only must justice be done; it must also be = seen to be done". A fair comment. Jari From jari.arkko@piuha.net Wed Apr 17 13:22:49 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02FC021E809E for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 13:22:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.579 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.579 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cZTAyUNGNM-D for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 13:22:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68F2F21E809B for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 13:22:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B88182CC50 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 23:22:46 +0300 (EEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at piuha.net Received: from p130.piuha.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (p130.piuha.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D-Ja6H2dxgMl for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 23:22:46 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2a00:1d50:2::130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 436DF2CC3C for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 23:22:46 +0300 (EEST) From: Jari Arkko Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 23:22:46 +0300 To: diversity@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.3 \(1503\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1503) Subject: [Diversity] blog post about diversity X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 20:22:49 -0000 I have written a blog post about the diversity topic: http://www.ietf.org/blog/2013/04/diversity/ (I've already said many things about the diversity topic in the meeting = and on various lists, so much of the material is something that you've = already seen before. But it is possible that there are a few new things = there, as well collecting multiple things in the same text.) Jari From jari.arkko@piuha.net Wed Apr 17 13:34:12 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7042321E8093 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 13:34:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.58 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.58 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WIyrVA8eCoFM for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 13:34:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 912EB21E808F for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 13:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE5BF2CC50 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 23:34:10 +0300 (EEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at piuha.net Received: from p130.piuha.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (p130.piuha.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IHOyVZV8entS for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 23:34:10 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:400::130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B3662CC3C for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 23:34:10 +0300 (EEST) From: Jari Arkko Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <88A363AF-712C-4BA1-A445-3DDB9D8E289F@piuha.net> Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 23:34:10 +0300 To: "diversity@ietf.org" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.3 \(1503\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1503) Subject: Re: [Diversity] Defining the Diversity problems (was: Starting the discussion) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 20:34:12 -0000 Lars: > I agree that the most pressing diversity "dimensions" are probably = gender and cultural/regional background. >=20 > Lack of diversity along those dimensions is an issue both in terms of = the general body of IETF participants as well we in terms of the group = of IETF leaders (WG chairs, I*, etc.) >=20 > I'd personally be very happy if we could increase diversity along = those two dimensions in those two sets of people. Yes, there are = probably other diversity dimensions, and there are probably other sets = of people and things we could apply these and other dimensions to. But = to me personally, those are secondary. I mostly agree, and we also need somewhere to start from. That being = said, I'll just point out that additional diversity along the = large-small company axis, commercial-university (hey, IRTF), and = vendor-operator would probably also bring rather immediate benefits to = IETF's work, with the expertise possible new participants in this space = could bring. But maybe we are thinking about this the wrong way around. We aren't = really in direct control of who attends. If we make it a friendlier = place (see SM's and Barbara's e-mails) and reduce full-time requirements = for some of the leadership positions, this will attract people from all = the categories. > Half-baked thought: In the meantime, instead of tweaking selection = processes, maybe it would be a fist step to simply ask the various = selecting bodies and individuals for a pledge. The pledge would be that = when they pick someone for a leadership position, they take a moment to = ask themselves "if we're selecting a white male person, is he really the = best selection for this position, in terms of individual qualification = and in terms of making sure that the diversity of the community is = represented in its leadership?" I think the community's voice has been heard. Every discussion I've had = about personnel issues after IETF-86 has had a very serious = consideration of the diversity effects and choices. Obviously, this is = not the only consideration to have, but it is currently being very = seriously taken into account. IMO, of course. Jari From stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie Wed Apr 17 13:40:39 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E09021F86C3 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 13:40:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 38AbJStOz1n1 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 13:40:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE0CB21F86AD for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 13:40:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7499BE6F; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:40:15 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id keeATf8eXjpX; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:40:14 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.87.48.4] (unknown [86.42.24.82]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3B683BE5F; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:40:14 +0100 (IST) Message-ID: <516F085B.2000602@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:38:51 +0100 From: Stephen Farrell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130329 Thunderbird/17.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jari Arkko References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: [Diversity] diverse geographic input (was: Re: blog post about diversity) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 20:40:39 -0000 On the topic of diverse geographic input. Another idea might be to try to encourage someone who actually knows (i.e. not me:-) to document some of the different realities that apply in less well connected environments. If we had some RFC(s) that described that well, then I think that might be useful input to other protocol deign efforts even while we work to increase the number of active participants from under-represented regions. I'm not aware of another source at the level of detail that'd be useful there. (Glad to be pointed at one if it exists.) If it helped to have a semi-official venue, the IRTF DTNRG could be a place for that particular piece of work since some DTN folks do try to address such challenged networking environments. I'd also be happy to help out shepherding or whatever as I'm sure would others regardless of venue. And of course the obvious also now occurs to me - maybe the previous ISOC fellows could be asked to start that ball rolling, with help from a few folks more familiar with how to get an RFC done. S On 04/17/2013 09:22 PM, Jari Arkko wrote: > I have written a blog post about the diversity topic: > > http://www.ietf.org/blog/2013/04/diversity/ > > (I've already said many things about the diversity topic in the meeting and on various lists, so much of the material is something that you've already seen before. But it is possible that there are a few new things there, as well collecting multiple things in the same text.) > > Jari > > _______________________________________________ > diversity mailing list > diversity@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity > > From narten@us.ibm.com Wed Apr 17 13:45:16 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C03821F86F0 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 13:45:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.493 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.493 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.106, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KedvUhRJ6OvV for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 13:45:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from e9.ny.us.ibm.com (e9.ny.us.ibm.com [32.97.182.139]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DEFB21F86E4 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 13:45:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from /spool/local by e9.ny.us.ibm.com with IBM ESMTP SMTP Gateway: Authorized Use Only! Violators will be prosecuted for from ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 16:45:15 -0400 Received: from d01dlp03.pok.ibm.com (9.56.250.168) by e9.ny.us.ibm.com (192.168.1.109) with IBM ESMTP SMTP Gateway: Authorized Use Only! Violators will be prosecuted; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 16:45:12 -0400 Received: from d01relay03.pok.ibm.com (d01relay03.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.235]) by d01dlp03.pok.ibm.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5E3BC9001D for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 16:45:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d01av02.pok.ibm.com (d01av02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.216]) by d01relay03.pok.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v10.0) with ESMTP id r3HKjASQ281170 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 16:45:10 -0400 Received: from d01av02.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av02.pok.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.13.1/NCO v10.0 AVout) with ESMTP id r3HKjADc027235 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 17:45:10 -0300 Received: from cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com (sig-9-49-146-246.mts.ibm.com [9.49.146.246]) by d01av02.pok.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.13.1/NCO v10.0 AVin) with ESMTP id r3HKj82w027121 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 17 Apr 2013 17:45:09 -0300 Received: from cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com (8.14.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id r3HKj7VH024598; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 16:45:07 -0400 Message-Id: <201304172045.r3HKj7VH024598@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> From: Thomas Narten To: Jari Arkko In-reply-to: <88A363AF-712C-4BA1-A445-3DDB9D8E289F@piuha.net> References: <88A363AF-712C-4BA1-A445-3DDB9D8E289F@piuha.net> Comments: In-reply-to Jari Arkko message dated "Wed, 17 Apr 2013 23:34:10 +0300." Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 16:45:07 -0400 X-TM-AS-MML: No X-Content-Scanned: Fidelis XPS MAILER x-cbid: 13041720-7182-0000-0000-00000649D323 Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Diversity] Defining the Diversity problems (was: Starting the discussion) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 20:45:16 -0000 One concrete change we could make that might make a difference is to change the mantra of "selecting the best person for the job" to "selecting a person from a pool of candidates that are above the bar". This is an important distinction. If we always select the "best" person, that favors those that have been in the community for a long time. Experience begets more experience. That is the essence of the good ol' boys network. What we really want, is to select people that will do an adequate job. To me, that doesn't always mean "best". What it really means is that they don't have any glaring disqualifications. I.e., you can't expect folk to be "ideal" in all categories. But they MUST not be below a threshold in key categories. Like judgement, BS detection, ability to work with people, etc. Thomas From cabo@tzi.org Wed Apr 17 13:55:23 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 200E821E8091 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 13:55:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.782 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.782 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.467, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OhEtIJmmPuUv for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 13:55:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1557421E8089 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 13:55:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r3HKtIaG029690; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 22:55:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.105] (p548933CC.dip.t-dialin.net [84.137.51.204]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8F6173B98; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 22:55:18 +0200 (CEST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.3 \(1503\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <201304172045.r3HKj7VH024598@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 22:55:17 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9490FC03-4A36-4A97-82B9-1F81BB1302DF@tzi.org> References: <88A363AF-712C-4BA1-A445-3DDB9D8E289F@piuha.net> <201304172045.r3HKj7VH024598@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> To: Thomas Narten X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1503) Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" , Jari Arkko Subject: Re: [Diversity] Defining the Diversity problems (was: Starting the discussion) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 20:55:23 -0000 On Apr 17, 2013, at 22:45, Thomas Narten wrote: > One concrete change we could make that might make a difference is to > change the mantra of "selecting the best person for the job" to > "selecting a person from a pool of candidates that are above the bar". Slippery slope*). I'd rather say that the objective function for "best" needs to factor in = diversity. Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten *) We just had this fierce debate about introducing a quota system for = supervisory boards in Germany. I just don't want to go there. From kathleen.moriarty@emc.com Wed Apr 17 14:01:22 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2142621E80D3 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:01:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pKPeNFeM5xM2 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:01:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexforward.lss.emc.com (hop-nat-141.emc.com [168.159.213.141]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3280B21E80D1 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:01:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hop04-l1d11-si02.isus.emc.com (HOP04-L1D11-SI02.isus.emc.com [10.254.111.55]) by mexforward.lss.emc.com (Switch-3.4.3/Switch-3.4.3) with ESMTP id r3HL167b017826 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 17 Apr 2013 17:01:16 -0400 Received: from mailhub.lss.emc.com (mailhubhoprd03.lss.emc.com [10.254.221.145]) by hop04-l1d11-si02.isus.emc.com (RSA Interceptor); Wed, 17 Apr 2013 17:00:49 -0400 Received: from mxhub22.corp.emc.com (mxhub22.corp.emc.com [128.222.70.134]) by mailhub.lss.emc.com (Switch-3.4.3/Switch-3.4.3) with ESMTP id r3HL0nRo023177; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 17:00:49 -0400 Received: from mx15a.corp.emc.com ([169.254.1.81]) by mxhub22.corp.emc.com ([128.222.70.134]) with mapi; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 17:00:49 -0400 From: "Moriarty, Kathleen" To: Jari Arkko , "diversity@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 17:00:47 -0400 Thread-Topic: [Diversity] Defining the Diversity problems (was: Starting the discussion) Thread-Index: Ac47q7g0x4oNwAwpQMSFVtEU0M3RugAAMieQ Message-ID: References: <88A363AF-712C-4BA1-A445-3DDB9D8E289F@piuha.net> In-Reply-To: <88A363AF-712C-4BA1-A445-3DDB9D8E289F@piuha.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-EMM-MHVC: 1 Subject: Re: [Diversity] Defining the Diversity problems (was: Starting the discussion) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:01:22 -0000 Great points... Another complaint I have heard from the University and rese= arch space is that it takes too long to get work to become a standard. The= catch phrase, "standards should be written on napkins" has been getting tr= action in other circles. It may be helpful to provide explanations on how = to get work through the IETF effectively, as well as emphasizing the value = of a draft. By emphasizing the value of a draft, this refers to the abilit= y to write code or implement a draft and improve it as it moves to standard= status. People outside of the IETF do not seem to understand that they ca= n drive the time it takes to get a draft to a standard, so they don't want = to try. We have a few hurdles to overcome. I think vendors see the value of having interoperable protocols, so we are = all here. There are some university efforts I would love to see helping wi= th our standards efforts, but they write and support their own code. They = are not as worried about the broader community and how their work can reach= these communities through interoperable standards. We may need to think o= f ways to incent them to participate. Thank you, Kathleen=20 -----Original Message----- From: diversity-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:diversity-bounces@ietf.org] On Beh= alf Of Jari Arkko Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 4:34 PM To: diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] Defining the Diversity problems (was: Starting the= discussion) Lars: > I agree that the most pressing diversity "dimensions" are probably gender= and cultural/regional background. >=20 > Lack of diversity along those dimensions is an issue both in terms of the= general body of IETF participants as well we in terms of the group of IETF= leaders (WG chairs, I*, etc.) >=20 > I'd personally be very happy if we could increase diversity along those t= wo dimensions in those two sets of people. Yes, there are probably other di= versity dimensions, and there are probably other sets of people and things = we could apply these and other dimensions to. But to me personally, those a= re secondary. I mostly agree, and we also need somewhere to start from. That being said, = I'll just point out that additional diversity along the large-small company= axis, commercial-university (hey, IRTF), and vendor-operator would probabl= y also bring rather immediate benefits to IETF's work, with the expertise p= ossible new participants in this space could bring. But maybe we are thinking about this the wrong way around. We aren't really= in direct control of who attends. If we make it a friendlier place (see SM= 's and Barbara's e-mails) and reduce full-time requirements for some of the= leadership positions, this will attract people from all the categories. > Half-baked thought: In the meantime, instead of tweaking selection proces= ses, maybe it would be a fist step to simply ask the various selecting bodi= es and individuals for a pledge. The pledge would be that when they pick so= meone for a leadership position, they take a moment to ask themselves "if w= e're selecting a white male person, is he really the best selection for thi= s position, in terms of individual qualification and in terms of making sur= e that the diversity of the community is represented in its leadership?" I think the community's voice has been heard. Every discussion I've had abo= ut personnel issues after IETF-86 has had a very serious consideration of t= he diversity effects and choices. Obviously, this is not the only considera= tion to have, but it is currently being very seriously taken into account. = IMO, of course. Jari _______________________________________________ diversity mailing list diversity@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity From arturo.servin@gmail.com Wed Apr 17 14:05:50 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C86F421E80B0 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:05:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0yPITighvqiw for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:05:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ve0-f174.google.com (mail-ve0-f174.google.com [209.85.128.174]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F44421E80A8 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:05:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ve0-f174.google.com with SMTP id jz10so1840652veb.5 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:05:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=dEYVYkowxrh69twRrIN/e3UOYpgdGRqcYnzD4YQXP/o=; b=c2Px2bzPYxE9M3J2j0zU9ODd4r23FopfNNWCQXUXUd+M6IIq6H6VxYUkQsUdnNMBav xOYrpRF4juOEgjhJfdj8iUejUZVnrGQWPu6tG7U9WbJ5U1rgIXjxYNhrxqqsU6N7aYiF ebn97azf/QyCVzRLf2q41ZdzAMNu6mehAQGgij7/0jiXcj2L3ReRZM/vtzmCvODwREhB uQFCFuvvgw5mZSEP1hD+/fMxNje9Zg5KDOguamMSWgKeMNKvIHAZ+oDPbxjyMDH8d+ii wCOYGxb3BYdfnj4blkRF/W2ZOUaLx1b0IVl5hwz9sthS8rkFZEOhygH8CA2O82+3ORVt nxcw== X-Received: by 10.52.171.13 with SMTP id aq13mr2951463vdc.64.1366232749637; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:05:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Arturos-MacBook-Pro.local ([2800:af:ba30:dd2a:cd29:7c4d:e365:b0f9]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id em6sm7228477vdb.3.2013.04.17.14.05.47 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:05:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <516F0EA9.9000109@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 18:05:45 -0300 From: Arturo Servin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130328 Thunderbird/17.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diversity@ietf.org References: <88A363AF-712C-4BA1-A445-3DDB9D8E289F@piuha.net> <201304172045.r3HKj7VH024598@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> <9490FC03-4A36-4A97-82B9-1F81BB1302DF@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <9490FC03-4A36-4A97-82B9-1F81BB1302DF@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [Diversity] Defining the Diversity problems (was: Starting the discussion) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:05:50 -0000 On 4/17/13 5:55 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On Apr 17, 2013, at 22:45, Thomas Narten wrote: > >> One concrete change we could make that might make a difference is to >> change the mantra of "selecting the best person for the job" to >> "selecting a person from a pool of candidates that are above the bar". > > Slippery slope*). > > I'd rather say that the objective function for "best" needs to factor in diversity. I just wanted to same the same and I didn't know how. Perhaps we need to change the definition of what is best. For now, it is my impression that the definition is "the person with the best technical background and more experience." > > Grüße, Carsten > > *) We just had this fierce debate about introducing a quota system for supervisory boards in Germany. I just don't want to go there. > > /as From jari.arkko@piuha.net Wed Apr 17 14:07:19 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA04121E80D8 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:07:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.582 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.582 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.017, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RH-CnQofUqTB for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:07:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0675921E80D3 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:07:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54D5F2CC50; Thu, 18 Apr 2013 00:07:18 +0300 (EEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at piuha.net Received: from p130.piuha.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (p130.piuha.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y3bNNK0xttuH; Thu, 18 Apr 2013 00:07:17 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2a00:1d50:2::130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A1082CC3C; Thu, 18 Apr 2013 00:07:17 +0300 (EEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.3 \(1503\)) From: Jari Arkko In-Reply-To: <9490FC03-4A36-4A97-82B9-1F81BB1302DF@tzi.org> Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 00:07:17 +0300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <88A363AF-712C-4BA1-A445-3DDB9D8E289F@piuha.net> <201304172045.r3HKj7VH024598@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> <9490FC03-4A36-4A97-82B9-1F81BB1302DF@tzi.org> To: Carsten Bormann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1503) Cc: Thomas Narten , diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] Defining the Diversity problems (was: Starting the discussion) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:07:19 -0000 > I'd rather say that the objective function for "best" needs to factor = in diversity. This reminds me of how we often do WG chair selections. There are = multiple criteria. One of the criteria that often got emphasised was = "training new leadership". You do not always pick the person with most = experience. You try to optimise the availability of talent on longer = term. An (experienced person, new person with potential) pair was often = the best choice from that perspective. A similar approach could apply = with diversity - the optimisation function is not just about this = particular seat, but also for breadth of experience across the = organisation. Jari From kathleen.moriarty@emc.com Wed Apr 17 14:08:45 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DAFB21E80B1 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:08:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VJc+OHvaQ9Ie for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexforward.lss.emc.com (hop-nat-141.emc.com [168.159.213.141]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A74121E80A8 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hop04-l1d11-si03.isus.emc.com (HOP04-L1D11-SI03.isus.emc.com [10.254.111.23]) by mexforward.lss.emc.com (Switch-3.4.3/Switch-3.4.3) with ESMTP id r3HL8doS021797 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 17 Apr 2013 17:08:39 -0400 Received: from mailhub.lss.emc.com (mailhubhoprd06.lss.emc.com [10.254.222.130]) by hop04-l1d11-si03.isus.emc.com (RSA Interceptor); Wed, 17 Apr 2013 17:08:24 -0400 Received: from mxhub29.corp.emc.com (mxhub29.corp.emc.com [128.222.70.169]) by mailhub.lss.emc.com (Switch-3.4.3/Switch-3.4.3) with ESMTP id r3HL8Fmc025514; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 17:08:23 -0400 Received: from mx15a.corp.emc.com ([169.254.1.81]) by mxhub29.corp.emc.com ([128.222.70.169]) with mapi; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 17:05:15 -0400 From: "Moriarty, Kathleen" To: Stephen Farrell , Jari Arkko Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 17:05:14 -0400 Thread-Topic: [Diversity] diverse geographic input (was: Re: blog post about diversity) Thread-Index: Ac47q/LWTsbQGC5/Tf67rHPj2iwHHgAAVgvw Message-ID: References: <516F085B.2000602@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <516F085B.2000602@cs.tcd.ie> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-EMM-MHVC: 1 Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Diversity] diverse geographic input (was: Re: blog post about diversity) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:08:45 -0000 That's a good idea. How about the use of other formats like recorded prese= ntations, short youTube videos, and/or podcasts instead of or in addition t= o drafts? Updating our methods to distribute information may help with you= nger attendees. This might be limited to things that are not documented pr= ocess, but helpful information or supplementary to drafts. It may be good = to have a series to explain key building blocks (protocols) or one for each= Area (or motivated WGs that want to advertise) in the IETF so people know = what sessions would be interesting. Including text (animations or slides) = will be important for anyone whose first language is not English. Thanks, Kathleen -----Original Message----- From: diversity-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:diversity-bounces@ietf.org] On Beh= alf Of Stephen Farrell Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 4:39 PM To: Jari Arkko Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: [Diversity] diverse geographic input (was: Re: blog post about div= ersity) On the topic of diverse geographic input. Another idea might be to try to encourage someone who actually knows (i.e. not me:-) to document some of the different realities that apply in less well connected environments. If we had some RFC(s) that described that well, then I think that might be useful input to other protocol deign efforts even while we work to increase the number of active participants from under-represented regions. I'm not aware of another source at the level of detail that'd be useful there. (Glad to be pointed at one if it exists.) If it helped to have a semi-official venue, the IRTF DTNRG could be a place for that particular piece of work since some DTN folks do try to address such challenged networking environments. I'd also be happy to help out shepherding or whatever as I'm sure would others regardless of venue. And of course the obvious also now occurs to me - maybe the previous ISOC fellows could be asked to start that ball rolling, with help from a few folks more familiar with how to get an RFC done. S On 04/17/2013 09:22 PM, Jari Arkko wrote: > I have written a blog post about the diversity topic: >=20 > http://www.ietf.org/blog/2013/04/diversity/ >=20 > (I've already said many things about the diversity topic in the meeting a= nd on various lists, so much of the material is something that you've alrea= dy seen before. But it is possible that there are a few new things there, a= s well collecting multiple things in the same text.) >=20 > Jari >=20 > _______________________________________________ > diversity mailing list > diversity@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________ diversity mailing list diversity@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity From arturo.servin@gmail.com Wed Apr 17 14:16:05 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6240421E80A8 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:16:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, HOST_EQ_DIALUP=0.862, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JDakVdPL9JJN for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:16:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qc0-x229.google.com (mail-qc0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c01::229]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D41F021F860B for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:16:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qc0-f169.google.com with SMTP id t2so946173qcq.28 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:16:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=FlkYrvwvB9+zx9VWdkZIWizvFry9KpMvp6CY/0PD6K0=; b=BtHmU/V7Aj1+bca/FobD1tLDp37azQiCIfJiy7Fhn3Mr59yedkdewkGv4S15A/b6SQ G5WnMPshqCMccCcyzr3VYqtxWMgJzmYpISZhAEYWH7TwY0Amzf/KV0XzFskJeJcHrp5x vVZZU5wmUrI+5MfzH0Q3JEGgSJGCz6yGtCnCl9yKg0tFLv1Tv/xEWVmPgx1WxOWRTpFE PU+TzO5Ib3V8mpi0/iu/p90DIOdvoOuNyeyQGj/E21SMHhRW8QG9Wcb20iGyg/vObaQE RcyoZPEOc4aNSChh5ccHzUrRVql/+w+jGdYT+Jbsrp772WZyJNY0/sF/YcwinuOIsYcA nLag== X-Received: by 10.229.113.212 with SMTP id b20mr2914093qcq.96.1366233364333; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:16:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Arturos-MacBook-Pro.local (r186-48-221-42.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy. [186.48.221.42]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id kf2sm8697897qeb.4.2013.04.17.14.16.02 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:16:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <516F1110.60001@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 18:16:00 -0300 From: Arturo Servin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130328 Thunderbird/17.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diversity@ietf.org References: <516F085B.2000602@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <516F085B.2000602@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Diversity] diverse geographic input X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:16:05 -0000 On 4/17/13 5:38 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > On the topic of diverse geographic input. Another idea > might be to try to encourage someone who actually knows > (i.e. not me:-) to document some of the different realities > that apply in less well connected environments. If we had > some RFC(s) that described that well, then I think that > might be useful input to other protocol deign efforts even > while we work to increase the number of active participants > from under-represented regions. I'm not aware of another > source at the level of detail that'd be useful there. (Glad > to be pointed at one if it exists.) Seems like a good idea. Leaving in a very far away country with expensive and complex traveling, with high speed internet that is not really very fast but very expensive, etc. sometimes I see no empathy for that reality from other IETF participants. Nevertheless it may be specific problems not addressed because there is not interest (or it looks like it). > > If it helped to have a semi-official venue, the IRTF DTNRG > could be a place for that particular piece of work since > some DTN folks do try to address such challenged networking > environments. I'd also be happy to help out shepherding or > whatever as I'm sure would others regardless of venue. > > And of course the obvious also now occurs to me - maybe the > previous ISOC fellows could be asked to start that ball > rolling, with help from a few folks more familiar with how > to get an RFC done. > > S > > > /as From stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie Wed Apr 17 14:22:50 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C2DB21E80E2 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:22:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dx1L5EOReb9f for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:22:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0A5E21E80E1 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:22:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DBB5BE53; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 22:22:27 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BVl1fjOmbeJP; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 22:22:26 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.87.48.4] (unknown [86.42.24.82]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2C4D3BE51; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 22:22:26 +0100 (IST) Message-ID: <516F1291.6030100@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 22:22:25 +0100 From: Stephen Farrell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130329 Thunderbird/17.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Moriarty, Kathleen" References: <516F085B.2000602@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" , Jari Arkko Subject: Re: [Diversity] diverse geographic input X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:22:50 -0000 On 04/17/2013 10:05 PM, Moriarty, Kathleen wrote: > That's a good idea. How about the use of other formats like recorded presentations, short youTube videos, and/or podcasts instead of or in addition to drafts? Updating our methods to distribute information may help with younger attendees. This might be limited to things that are not documented process, but helpful information or supplementary to drafts. It may be good to have a series to explain key building blocks (protocols) or one for each Area (or motivated WGs that want to advertise) in the IETF so people know what sessions would be interesting. Including text (animations or slides) will be important for anyone whose first language is not English. Sure. Might be another advantage to feeding some of this particular bit of work via the IRTF who don't have all the same constraints an IETF WG has. I think one or more RFCs ultimately popping out though might be desirable though as well. S. > Thanks, > Kathleen > > -----Original Message----- > From: diversity-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:diversity-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Farrell > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 4:39 PM > To: Jari Arkko > Cc: diversity@ietf.org > Subject: [Diversity] diverse geographic input (was: Re: blog post about diversity) > > > On the topic of diverse geographic input. Another idea > might be to try to encourage someone who actually knows > (i.e. not me:-) to document some of the different realities > that apply in less well connected environments. If we had > some RFC(s) that described that well, then I think that > might be useful input to other protocol deign efforts even > while we work to increase the number of active participants > from under-represented regions. I'm not aware of another > source at the level of detail that'd be useful there. (Glad > to be pointed at one if it exists.) > > If it helped to have a semi-official venue, the IRTF DTNRG > could be a place for that particular piece of work since > some DTN folks do try to address such challenged networking > environments. I'd also be happy to help out shepherding or > whatever as I'm sure would others regardless of venue. > > And of course the obvious also now occurs to me - maybe the > previous ISOC fellows could be asked to start that ball > rolling, with help from a few folks more familiar with how > to get an RFC done. > > S > > On 04/17/2013 09:22 PM, Jari Arkko wrote: >> I have written a blog post about the diversity topic: >> >> http://www.ietf.org/blog/2013/04/diversity/ >> >> (I've already said many things about the diversity topic in the meeting and on various lists, so much of the material is something that you've already seen before. But it is possible that there are a few new things there, as well collecting multiple things in the same text.) >> >> Jari >> >> _______________________________________________ >> diversity mailing list >> diversity@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity >> >> > _______________________________________________ > diversity mailing list > diversity@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity > > _______________________________________________ > diversity mailing list > diversity@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity > > From arturo.servin@gmail.com Wed Apr 17 14:27:11 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3FCD21E80DF for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:27:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dQYMVwLoCHss for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:27:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yh0-x232.google.com (mail-yh0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c01::232]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9558421E8096 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:27:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yh0-f50.google.com with SMTP id 25so342143yhr.23 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:27:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=4p5XJ2e7t8R65BOsHFlVy4hsOy4wV/XDxOwz+8JoPi8=; b=gwTwR3nCOd3jp/IHGxMtJ4wSXsmejVI0YvNwGNQfjaffIo8ZYTc2YVoF8maEzsZAlQ pxoafIVcsfAJGQtPtJunNyETtw/Q+surB+MQkxfiCuOQrfcBerwK+s3jWKDgkbLmD/y4 FfjRDFOzcYQNwIjIaVgfRFW0PbpT56xUKGLtJHJYm1dd6Dtb8Efqk43LMkg6EPSP10tk N132CuF3uOahUl+ayh+yyDcfds7lzcI1yZdj1zrHJmxLEEy72QlXn4HHc7J8bfDRfIMM b5nrkE2//znzMnczoF61n6nv0TQZV0lmTC2w/7Ziyv4Tgka6FhNPJP4NnbiCJuhJkLsm jrnw== X-Received: by 10.236.189.98 with SMTP id b62mr3787923yhn.97.1366234030202; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:27:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Arturos-MacBook-Pro.local ([2800:af:ba30:dd2a:cd29:7c4d:e365:b0f9]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b78sm12175823yhi.2.2013.04.17.14.27.07 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:27:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <516F13A9.7030006@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 18:27:05 -0300 From: Arturo Servin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130328 Thunderbird/17.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diversity@ietf.org References: <516F085B.2000602@cs.tcd.ie> <516F1291.6030100@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <516F1291.6030100@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Diversity] diverse geographic input X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:27:11 -0000 It doesn't have to be one or the other. We could do both. We cannot do everything in RFC and videos/podcast/alternative_media but I think that this specific is possible. A good experiment by it self. /as On 4/17/13 6:22 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > > On 04/17/2013 10:05 PM, Moriarty, Kathleen wrote: >> That's a good idea. How about the use of other formats like recorded presentations, short youTube videos, and/or podcasts instead of or in addition to drafts? Updating our methods to distribute information may help with younger attendees. This might be limited to things that are not documented process, but helpful information or supplementary to drafts. It may be good to have a series to explain key building blocks (protocols) or one for each Area (or motivated WGs that want to advertise) in the IETF so people know what sessions would be interesting. Including text (animations or slides) will be important for anyone whose first language is not English. > > Sure. Might be another advantage to feeding some of > this particular bit of work via the IRTF who don't > have all the same constraints an IETF WG has. > > I think one or more RFCs ultimately popping out > though might be desirable though as well. > > S. > >> Thanks, >> Kathleen >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: diversity-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:diversity-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Farrell >> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 4:39 PM >> To: Jari Arkko >> Cc: diversity@ietf.org >> Subject: [Diversity] diverse geographic input (was: Re: blog post about diversity) >> >> >> On the topic of diverse geographic input. Another idea >> might be to try to encourage someone who actually knows >> (i.e. not me:-) to document some of the different realities >> that apply in less well connected environments. If we had >> some RFC(s) that described that well, then I think that >> might be useful input to other protocol deign efforts even >> while we work to increase the number of active participants >> from under-represented regions. I'm not aware of another >> source at the level of detail that'd be useful there. (Glad >> to be pointed at one if it exists.) >> >> If it helped to have a semi-official venue, the IRTF DTNRG >> could be a place for that particular piece of work since >> some DTN folks do try to address such challenged networking >> environments. I'd also be happy to help out shepherding or >> whatever as I'm sure would others regardless of venue. >> >> And of course the obvious also now occurs to me - maybe the >> previous ISOC fellows could be asked to start that ball >> rolling, with help from a few folks more familiar with how >> to get an RFC done. >> >> S >> >> On 04/17/2013 09:22 PM, Jari Arkko wrote: >>> I have written a blog post about the diversity topic: >>> >>> http://www.ietf.org/blog/2013/04/diversity/ >>> >>> (I've already said many things about the diversity topic in the meeting and on various lists, so much of the material is something that you've already seen before. But it is possible that there are a few new things there, as well collecting multiple things in the same text.) >>> >>> Jari >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> diversity mailing list >>> diversity@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> diversity mailing list >> diversity@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity >> >> _______________________________________________ >> diversity mailing list >> diversity@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity >> >> > _______________________________________________ > diversity mailing list > diversity@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity > From lars@netapp.com Wed Apr 17 14:50:25 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1947121F8C08 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:50:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.399, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, SARE_SUB_RAND_LETTRS4=0.799] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WjV08IEfkyip for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:50:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx12.netapp.com (mx12.netapp.com [216.240.18.77]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1053721F8B3A for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:50:20 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.87,496,1363158000"; d="scan'208";a="41731447" Received: from smtp1.corp.netapp.com ([10.57.156.124]) by mx12-out.netapp.com with ESMTP; 17 Apr 2013 14:50:19 -0700 Received: from vmwexceht02-prd.hq.netapp.com (vmwexceht02-prd.hq.netapp.com [10.106.76.240]) by smtp1.corp.netapp.com (8.13.1/8.13.1/NTAP-1.6) with ESMTP id r3HLoJNb007009; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:50:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SACEXCMBX01-PRD.hq.netapp.com ([169.254.2.71]) by vmwexceht02-prd.hq.netapp.com ([10.106.76.240]) with mapi id 14.02.0342.003; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:50:19 -0700 From: "Eggert, Lars" To: Arturo Servin Thread-Topic: "emerging regions" IRTF RG ( was Re: [Diversity] diverse geographic input) Thread-Index: AQHOO7WMZauQBW+4pEaBhXsIBO9a7Q== Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:50:18 +0000 Message-ID: <59349D98-BF88-436D-88B4-117E339D2095@netapp.com> References: <516F085B.2000602@cs.tcd.ie> <516F1110.60001@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <516F1110.60001@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.104.60.115] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <559882040AB25C499355CFFA598CBABC@tahoe.netapp.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "" Subject: [Diversity] "emerging regions" IRTF RG ( was Re: diverse geographic input) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:50:25 -0000 Hi, On Apr 17, 2013, at 14:16, Arturo Servin wrote: >=20 > Leaving in a very far away country with expensive and complex > traveling, with high speed internet that is not really very fast but > very expensive, etc. sometimes I see no empathy for that reality from > other IETF participants. Nevertheless it may be specific problems not > addressed because there is not interest (or it looks like it). There certainly is interest! I've been talking to a few folks about whether there would be interest and = energy for a new IRTF RG focusing on - for the lack of a better term - "Int= ernet challenges and solutions for emerging regions." Basically, a forum wh= ere we can discuss the challenges the Internet is facing in those regions, = and share experiences and proposals to successfully address some of those c= hallenges. This would be a slightly unusual IRTF group in the sense that it wouldn't n= ecessarily have an academic focus, but instead be more of a discussion foru= m to share real-world issues and solution ideas. But that's OK, my view of = what IRTF groups can work on is very broad. In order to make this group a success, it needs to be owned by and run by a= group of people from those emerging regions. Anything else would not work.= The good news is that there are obvious synergies with ISOCs Fellow Progra= m, and the IRTF also has a small budget that could be used to fund some par= ticipation/attendance. I'd be thrilled to discuss this in more detail with interested folks. This = list, however, is probably not the place for this. Contact me directly, and= maybe I'll set up a separate list under irtf.org. Also, anyone is obviousl= y encouraged to share this email in any way they see fit - if we try to sta= rt this group, we need to spread the word. Lars= From sm@resistor.net Wed Apr 17 15:34:23 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01D0521E80AB for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 15:34:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.274 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.274 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.325, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XfdVffHmSvRP for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 15:34:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B69321E8096 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 15:34:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.resistor.net (IDENT:sm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r3HMYGaD013388; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 15:34:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1366238061; bh=0WZk2oa1zyf9rjxMgv7sNw6vDiN6gHLijOjKFuhAnZ0=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=36vxUX0zu5b4EeDDAM017QfUmZUwnj2fwimpm9tYKpKdPWpDx5HPxKBRiIVV20cSB kGrGkKIie8x6YRSsMaLL8+lYFT33ykZLQOqS3dtze831opMQM+PssQ0d6B9gKoAfEZ mkPyxG6ceEn5hHIY4+fD9SkYBVRCbpKSDl47V7DA= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1366238061; i=@resistor.net; bh=0WZk2oa1zyf9rjxMgv7sNw6vDiN6gHLijOjKFuhAnZ0=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=OUXsTY2tSFPYP3GtmaMVFPpeSHA1jmY0z2ELSSxhMT68NCfFScdH2blRTtjJempOT NjEWbx4iUYAxLzNr8y3U8V1Jl6NO+eZ/pKwaROgjhkdO9vNQunmS+96vGrol3KcNu+ I8r8nYUCyAIwIaksw50TZDN9sVx5LukqokJ2dyp4= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20130417143517.079b6ec0@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 15:33:53 -0700 To: Jari Arkko From: SM In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] Starting the discussion X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 22:34:23 -0000 Hi Jari, At 13:17 17-04-2013, Jari Arkko wrote: >I'm sorry if there are such cases. It really is=20 >not appropriate at all, and I certainly support=20 >raising an objection. Or you could tell me and I=20 >can take it up with the persons in question. People can be good and make mistakes. It is=20 better to put the past behind and look ahead. >FWIW, the IETF culture has=85 relatively=20 >aggressive discussion style. The effect is not=20 >felt just by people from developing countries,=20 >sometimes it hits the rest of us too. I am not blameless when it comes to style. I=20 agree that the effect is not specific to a group of countries. > There are of course values even in the=20 > aggressive style. In particular, it is a core=20 > value of the IETF to be able to call out bad=20 > proposals. We want that to happen to ensure=20 > high quality of our results. But you can do=20 > that in multiple ways. Someone used the phrase=20 > "disagree without being disagreeable". You can=20 > be nice, even if you deliver a negative message. Agreed. >This I wholeheartedly agree with. And we really=20 >need to, if we are going to stay relevant. Not=20 >just understand young people. But have them run=20 >the networking design for the next decades. Yes. >And it is really not going to be just for the=20 >young people to follow the same path we've=20 >taken. I've had the opportunity to compare=20 >communication styles and Internet usage between=20 >different ages. From my age to the thirty=20 >somethings to late teenagers to ten year olds.=20 >It is just incredibly amazing how different=20 >groups of people these are. When the 19 year=20 >olds look like dinosaurs from last century when=20 >I compare them to the 10 year olds, you know=20 >that some of us greybeards need to work really hard to stay on the curve= :-) Selena has over 14 million followers. The IETF=20 Chair has 69 followers. :-) I wonder how many=20 people on this mailing list know who Selena is=20 (without doing a web search). The gap widens if=20 I do not try to understand the young people. Regards, -sm=20 From arturo.servin@gmail.com Wed Apr 17 16:22:24 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3907421E80C8 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 16:22:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, HOST_EQ_DIALUP=0.862, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r5+sp23NqEWd for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 16:22:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yh0-x22d.google.com (mail-yh0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c01::22d]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9734521E80AD for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 16:22:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yh0-f45.google.com with SMTP id q15so348761yhf.4 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 16:22:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=riDiqu9rtrT2FQnm7EwM0th5nP3D7OnDoq2tbEOp8lk=; b=RaE8xRDOUq4aUMbVqKfA5fMxDINwtaYL5SZ1mK+gElYY+JU8oBMpRdvzgZAFKHHMOC TC4IOMN2pfshNJSKNnjyWU3rPT6ztgCleDBpUArSai8I9LDKUJbq5FKXpg66cUHJEiVu KYzr2Ucr93w7XxF0PwBRPIGH9eHhtgjiC/SnkO0q51bQZ5gyNqLlA6dnHowGJJ6gnvXf yd4WfXzPyG3q6RuzMuPRimL+t49TEfv19PLj3bkGFAgEWbNsayUiDs9oy1aPUa48bfvY DXvXxOVfizkmphGVUF7JPNOtiUQgumDAqKaSurPxWMX+k+ZxxNkfyxFJ8VSx5mIwWpPm YK6w== X-Received: by 10.236.190.200 with SMTP id e48mr5555115yhn.137.1366240943085; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 16:22:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Arturos-MacBook-Pro.local (r186-48-221-42.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy. [186.48.221.42]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b7sm12796774yhl.10.2013.04.17.16.22.20 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 17 Apr 2013 16:22:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <516F2EAA.4060700@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 20:22:18 -0300 From: Arturo Servin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130328 Thunderbird/17.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diversity@ietf.org References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130417143517.079b6ec0@resistor.net> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20130417143517.079b6ec0@resistor.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Diversity] Starting the discussion X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 23:22:24 -0000 Well, in defense of Jari, if he had a show in Disney Channel may be he would have more. :D .as On 4/17/13 7:33 PM, SM wrote: > > Selena has over 14 million followers. The IETF Chair has 69 followers. > :-) I wonder how many people on this mailing list know who Selena is > (without doing a web search). The gap widens if I do not try to > understand the young people. > > Regards, > -sm > _______________________________________________ > diversity mailing list > diversity@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity From suresh.krishnan@ericsson.com Wed Apr 17 18:54:09 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2ED421E80D7 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 18:53:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.562 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.562 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.038, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WCMLaMt6GBcT for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 18:53:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg20.ericsson.net (usevmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24FF721F8E8E for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 18:53:56 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c618062d-b7f0d6d00000097e-21-516f523248b7 Received: from EUSAAHC005.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.87]) by usevmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 56.23.02430.2325F615; Thu, 18 Apr 2013 03:53:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eusaamw0711.eamcs.ericsson.se (147.117.20.178) by EUSAAHC005.ericsson.se (147.117.188.87) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.318.4; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:53:54 -0400 Received: from [155.53.74.126] (147.117.20.214) by smtps-am.internal.ericsson.com (147.117.20.178) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.3.279.1; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:53:53 -0400 Message-ID: <516F519C.1060001@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:51:24 -0400 From: Suresh Krishnan User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130329 Thunderbird/17.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephen Farrell References: <516F085B.2000602@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <516F085B.2000602@cs.tcd.ie> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrBLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPuK5xUH6gwZ0fbBbXbq9gsZixbwWb xfS919gdmD3Wdl9l81iy5CeTx9Yl09kCmKO4bFJSczLLUov07RK4MpYsTSl4xFbx80IfWwPj BtYuRk4OCQETiWtrG5ggbDGJC/fWs3UxcnEICRxllDi26igjhLOHUeLIx1vMEM5WRol1i/aC tfAKaEs82bGMGcRmEVCV6Jp8jwXEZgMau2HnZ7AaUYEwiVXrIWp4BQQlTs58AlYjIqAvsXfz OXYQm1nAWmLjt0tsILawgKHE6RUNYHEhgUiJT0f+g9mcApoSKzbOY4Q4VVJiy4t2qF49iSlX WxghbHmJ7W/nMEP0akpsXfOddQKj8Cwkq2chaZmFpGUBI/MqRo7S4tSy3HQjg02MwNA+JsGm u4Nxz0vLQ4zSHCxK4rxBrhcChATSE0tSs1NTC1KL4otKc1KLDzEycXBKNTCKlEybUH/xgGO8 uqZcwBmFvsfsSRuWPZbc8sd82ZOmmIvlcgInNs6rv7d97W7/9Us3bTvPn2WxaudGtQa3J6dU Iz2DrC2sJyp9nnHk+9fZe05clr0WlxoRedty2nuTPxouM5VlI//rKLdWL/ks0lc2ozv/2xOr wF+tDeL/NPwmCDbe/3789jMPJZbijERDLeai4kQATZYwBTsCAAA= Cc: diversity@ietf.org, Jari Arkko Subject: Re: [Diversity] diverse geographic input X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 01:54:09 -0000 Hi Stephen, On 04/17/2013 04:38 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > On the topic of diverse geographic input. Another idea > might be to try to encourage someone who actually knows > (i.e. not me:-) to document some of the different realities > that apply in less well connected environments. If we had > some RFC(s) that described that well, then I think that > might be useful input to other protocol deign efforts even > while we work to increase the number of active participants > from under-represented regions. I'm not aware of another > source at the level of detail that'd be useful there. (Glad > to be pointed at one if it exists.) I think the ISOC folks are involved in a lot of outreach activities in these less well connected environments. We can probably ask around to see if someone can contribute such a writeup. Thanks Suresh From suresh.krishnan@ericsson.com Wed Apr 17 19:03:39 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B37621E80ED for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 19:03:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.569 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.569 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.030, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pObXkPbbndJ4 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 19:03:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg21.ericsson.net (usevmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F8FF21E80E5 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 19:03:38 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c6180641-b7faf6d00000096b-84-516f54793bd9 Received: from EUSAAHC001.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.75]) by usevmg21.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id E3.15.02411.9745F615; Thu, 18 Apr 2013 04:03:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eusaamw0711.eamcs.ericsson.se (147.117.20.178) by EUSAAHC001.ericsson.se (147.117.188.75) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.318.4; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 22:03:37 -0400 Received: from [155.53.74.126] (147.117.20.214) by smtps-am.internal.ericsson.com (147.117.20.178) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.3.279.1; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 22:03:37 -0400 Message-ID: <516F53E3.5040408@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 22:01:07 -0400 From: Suresh Krishnan User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130329 Thunderbird/17.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephen Farrell References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130414103846.0b7dab40@elandnews.com> <516ECBF8.7060001@isdg.net> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E611302A7587@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> <832D3BF4-7A27-4DC7-8F19-BB8844FCD985@netapp.com> <516EF853.3010803@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <516EF853.3010803@cs.tcd.ie> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrLLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXSPt25VSH6gwZfdHBaT/v5ktLh2ewWL xc+/rawWL173sFhM33uN3YHV42X/HEaPtd1X2TyWLPnJ5PH26y92jxmfvrAFsEZx2aSk5mSW pRbp2yVwZZybOpux4Bx3xcyP6xgbGLdzdjFyckgImEh86VzGDmGLSVy4t54NxBYSOMoocWib ZRcjF5C9h1Gid/NDJghnK6PEzg8drCBVvALaEse39TCD2CwCqhKL5p8Fi7MBTd2w8zMTiC0q ECaxav0yZoh6QYmTM5+wgNgiAvoSezefYwcZyiwwh1GiZ9l+oAQHh7CAhcSMsw4Qy1YwSXy7 uw1sKKeApsTLq3tYIE6VlNjyoh3sbGYBPYkpV1sYIWx5ie1v5zBDvKApsXXNd9YJjMKzkOye haRlFpKWBYzMqxg5SotTy3LTjQw3MQKj4JgEm+MOxgWfLA8xSnOwKInzhrpeCBASSE8sSc1O TS1ILYovKs1JLT7EyMTBKdXAGLgx/6bKjeMKCcxPJpsHpS8XtC0q5L/9f6pI4Qb30lX13lXO LSXL60VNnbbLrfznU9tdbJazy6f+Tq7liqw9J/c/OHp1Fl/eq7tnr3bLsFW+e5Fj3fRXVvbt 5LpPvBLtO3PmVMt/nLKTW8FxsfbeyC/PPHpSth7l5sxm/NS2S4fnuvxVsQI3JZbijERDLeai 4kQAGofKY1ACAAA= Cc: Hector Santos , "" , "Eggert, Lars" , "STARK, BARBARA H" Subject: Re: [Diversity] Defining the Diversity problems X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 02:03:39 -0000 Hi Stephen, On 04/17/2013 03:30 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > On 04/17/2013 08:17 PM, Eggert, Lars wrote: >> Right. I also think that - for example - we have successfully scared away much of the research community from the IETF, which is one reason why potentially disrupting technologies that are coming out of university research (such as SDN & OpenFlow) are being developed in new fora rather than here. > > But I don't think this is right. I think by far the most > important factor there is that academics are now so > publication (and publication metric) obsessed that they > don't care about the IETF since our publications simply > don't count in that universe. If you can get a sigcomm > paper via ns-2 that's much more productive than spending > a couple of years haggling with the real Internet. > I'd be surprised if they had been scared off by bad or > good behaviour. They could be attracted back if RFCs or > chairing counted for tenure maybe, if someone could try > encourage that. It'd probably take a few top-ranked > universities doing it publicly or something though for > it to start happening. Brian Carpenter wrote this article in the SIGCOMM CCR a couple of years ago that recommended considering RFCs as being equivalent to other scholarly publications, but I am not sure if it gained any traction in the academic community. http://www.sigcomm.org/sites/default/files/ccr/papers/2010/January/1672308-1672315.pdf Thanks Suresh From jari.arkko@piuha.net Wed Apr 17 23:38:39 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A52BC21F89A6 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 23:38:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.583 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.583 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id djI09u-TYpBI for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 23:38:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C792F21F89A5 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2013 23:38:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6A112CC46; Thu, 18 Apr 2013 09:38:36 +0300 (EEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at piuha.net Received: from p130.piuha.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (p130.piuha.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id usAShYSRXamr; Thu, 18 Apr 2013 09:38:36 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:400::130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04CBA2CC3C; Thu, 18 Apr 2013 09:38:35 +0300 (EEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.3 \(1503\)) From: Jari Arkko In-Reply-To: <516F53E3.5040408@ericsson.com> Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 09:38:35 +0300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1BC72FF7-B1B7-4E8D-B24F-56A1E368C793@piuha.net> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130414103846.0b7dab40@elandnews.com> <516ECBF8.7060001@isdg.net> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E611302A7587@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> <832D3BF4-7A27-4DC7-8F19-BB8844FCD985@netapp.com> <516EF853.3010803@cs.tcd.ie> <516F53E3.5040408@ericsson.com> To: Suresh Krishnan X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1503) Cc: diversity@ietf.org, Lars Eggert , Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [Diversity] Defining the Diversity problems X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 06:38:39 -0000 >> But I don't think this is right. I think by far the most >> important factor there is that academics are now so >> publication (and publication metric) obsessed that they >> don't care about the IETF since our publications simply >> don't count in that universe. If you can get a sigcomm >> paper via ns-2 that's much more productive than spending >> a couple of years haggling with the real Internet. >> I'd be surprised if they had been scared off by bad or >> good behaviour. They could be attracted back if RFCs or >> chairing counted for tenure maybe, if someone could try >> encourage that. It'd probably take a few top-ranked >> universities doing it publicly or something though for >> it to start happening. >=20 > Brian Carpenter wrote this article in the SIGCOMM CCR a couple of = years > ago that recommended considering RFCs as being equivalent to other > scholarly publications, but I am not sure if it gained any traction in > the academic community. FWIW, impacts to standards (like RFCs from IETF) are highly appreciated = in research projects, such as those funded by EU. However, perhaps the = issue is that for the academic institution and the researcher's = employment there, they do not count. Or at least do not count = everywhere. Maybe Lars could work on getting at least IRTF RFCs accepted = similarly as journal articles in some key institutions :-) Jari From mmorrow@cisco.com Thu Apr 18 05:28:48 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99AE621F8E46 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2013 05:28:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_43=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wTug6r4fyrD8 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2013 05:28:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.86.79]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACC7221F8E06 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2013 05:28:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3314; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1366288127; x=1367497727; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=uNSv99GQKlHN31SvUZgYZs/+7Z3rFJgSgWKchogQ9K4=; b=ZTt4/zJjMRDP8UzgsG49rf4VMnwDcHkRp613MqZLdE9CsnQBtjZ4E/I6 ZOIjmL8vizTQh3Kzj1hqoglsduX4+Wky+akuSqizEcn8Ki7SxADJf3Tq/ RgzefTORUadO/wKfJ8vg0Hju6DDHjfcuwzl/W6HS4C/cNV0u5Q/LMDK7h Y=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ah8FANblb1GtJXG+/2dsb2JhbABQgwY2wGWBARZ0gh8BAQEDAQEBATc0CwUHBAIBCBEEAQEBHgkHJwsUCQgCBA4FCYgFBgy+JY1igQUoCwcGgl9hA5cGkRSDC4Fq X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.87,501,1363132800"; d="scan'208";a="200216645" Received: from rcdn-core2-3.cisco.com ([173.37.113.190]) by rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP; 18 Apr 2013 12:28:47 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x08.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x08.cisco.com [173.36.12.82]) by rcdn-core2-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r3ICSlON030233 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Apr 2013 12:28:47 GMT Received: from xmb-aln-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.5.70]) by xhc-aln-x08.cisco.com ([173.36.12.82]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.004; Thu, 18 Apr 2013 07:28:46 -0500 From: "Monique Morrow (mmorrow)" To: "Moriarty, Kathleen" Thread-Topic: [Diversity] diverse geographic input (was: Re: blog post about diversity) Thread-Index: AQHOO6/NLE90ExrV902hCprlRJI9A5jb6Sqp Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 12:28:45 +0000 Message-ID: <1752ED95-0D36-42CE-AC02-F31AF2A1425D@cisco.com> References: <516F085B.2000602@cs.tcd.ie>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" , Jari Arkko , Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [Diversity] diverse geographic input (was: Re: blog post about diversity) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 12:28:48 -0000 Kathleen I like the use of such tools to highlight the IETF,WGs and so on.=20 Monique Sent from my iPhone On 17.04.2013, at 23:09, "Moriarty, Kathleen" w= rote: > That's a good idea. How about the use of other formats like recorded pre= sentations, short youTube videos, and/or podcasts instead of or in addition= to drafts? Updating our methods to distribute information may help with y= ounger attendees. This might be limited to things that are not documented = process, but helpful information or supplementary to drafts. It may be goo= d to have a series to explain key building blocks (protocols) or one for ea= ch Area (or motivated WGs that want to advertise) in the IETF so people kno= w what sessions would be interesting. Including text (animations or slides= ) will be important for anyone whose first language is not English. >=20 > Thanks, > Kathleen >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: diversity-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:diversity-bounces@ietf.org] On B= ehalf Of Stephen Farrell > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 4:39 PM > To: Jari Arkko > Cc: diversity@ietf.org > Subject: [Diversity] diverse geographic input (was: Re: blog post about d= iversity) >=20 >=20 > On the topic of diverse geographic input. Another idea > might be to try to encourage someone who actually knows > (i.e. not me:-) to document some of the different realities > that apply in less well connected environments. If we had > some RFC(s) that described that well, then I think that > might be useful input to other protocol deign efforts even > while we work to increase the number of active participants > from under-represented regions. I'm not aware of another > source at the level of detail that'd be useful there. (Glad > to be pointed at one if it exists.) >=20 > If it helped to have a semi-official venue, the IRTF DTNRG > could be a place for that particular piece of work since > some DTN folks do try to address such challenged networking > environments. I'd also be happy to help out shepherding or > whatever as I'm sure would others regardless of venue. >=20 > And of course the obvious also now occurs to me - maybe the > previous ISOC fellows could be asked to start that ball > rolling, with help from a few folks more familiar with how > to get an RFC done. >=20 > S >=20 > On 04/17/2013 09:22 PM, Jari Arkko wrote: >> I have written a blog post about the diversity topic: >>=20 >> http://www.ietf.org/blog/2013/04/diversity/ >>=20 >> (I've already said many things about the diversity topic in the meeting = and on various lists, so much of the material is something that you've alre= ady seen before. But it is possible that there are a few new things there, = as well collecting multiple things in the same text.) >>=20 >> Jari >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> diversity mailing list >> diversity@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity > _______________________________________________ > diversity mailing list > diversity@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity >=20 > _______________________________________________ > diversity mailing list > diversity@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity From mcr@sandelman.ca Thu Apr 18 06:03:40 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 842D221F8709 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2013 06:03:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9P4qQwJb5Wj5 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2013 06:03:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25C5B21F8759 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2013 06:03:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0356020168 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2013 09:13:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 9132EA9987; Thu, 18 Apr 2013 09:03:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B202B948B for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2013 09:03:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailer: MH-E 8.3; nmh 1.3-dev; XEmacs 21.4 (patch 22) X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Subject: [Diversity] co-chairs X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 13:03:40 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A number of organizations that I have been a member of has had gender balanced co-chairs for all positions. This is sometimes worked well, and sometimes poorly. (One such organization, a political party, by law, had to have a single leader, treasurer and secretary, so we always had a deputy leader of the opposite gender, and made treasurer/secretary a pair) When it ran poorly my observation was that really it was two people that simply didn't work together; it had nothing to do with gender. We have lots of cases already in the IETF where two WG co-chairs do not communicate well enough. I'd like to suggest that we ask Lynn to start by appointing nomcom co-chairs. Yes, finding one nomcom chair might be hard enough, but I think it could be done. The nomcom I've just been on had only a single female, which is really the result of two things in my opinion:=20=20 1) the nomcom eligibility requirement=20 2) if we are going to encourage women to run for positions, they can not also be on the nomcom! Or, if the input to the process had better gender parity, the randomness ought to spit out a better result. This matters only because nomcom chairs are generally required to have been through the nomcom process, and with the male bias in the members, the selection of chair is harder. Looking through the list of previous nomcom I see only one or two cmte that had more than one woman, and several that had zero. The second thing that I think the diversity design team should consider is changes to the nomcom eligibility requirement such that the criteria to remain nomcom eligible is much less than to become eligible. In particular, we have no specific accomodation for remote participation which we seem to want to encourage. =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUAUW/vD4qHRg3pndX9AQIr1QP+Om3i6XljwmaqQ+tXUnSkNneFQJFYsrOh VHz+uB8NA2YLrchSDH9R9gDpo8JNyB+Ki88UclBRIpatyX+DBJ0OEtXjuvqhideD xEgRK4wwrV3BL2Fpy9WPRfWjzCAwC6jTLI3YqyggaEwq5M+qnnw9szdWNOISlb8r wvFzF5iPIvU= =B428 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From rogaglia@cisco.com Thu Apr 18 11:35:15 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8ADB21F937D for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2013 11:35:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5hdze5JPIAct for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2013 11:35:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.86.79]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2048F21F9380 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2013 11:35:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=7508; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1366310115; x=1367519715; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=1xU2/AoHeWmEWMBdRrC8f7n+5uUMaRoaH9RbnLcAMq8=; b=fKR8VItyGPEZJ8Lm6fpXhrtXSO+X21nwp0HULKFvBH/YKAiPSlo4x2zK YHmO6lKanfdxr1l6EHOc0xgyqFf5s8MtFTYYaUDd7QOxYC9pi7W31up8m GiUYZJNkkWRyFpgTVbvurwO1Mq9T9lzlFi54dwXuImPjsGymWK6EqUMXf k=; X-Files: smime.p7s : 4389 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AhYFAIU7cFGtJXG8/2dsb2JhbABGCoMGwRGBBRZ0giABAQSBCQIBKiQCMCUCBBsGiAatTZBtjVyBCziCZmEDj1aBKZccgwuCKA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.87,503,1363132800"; d="p7s'?scan'208";a="200391303" Received: from rcdn-core2-1.cisco.com ([173.37.113.188]) by rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP; 18 Apr 2013 18:35:14 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x07.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x07.cisco.com [173.36.12.81]) by rcdn-core2-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r3IIZE1B021690 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2013 18:35:14 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x02.cisco.com ([169.254.4.165]) by xhc-aln-x07.cisco.com ([173.36.12.81]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.004; Thu, 18 Apr 2013 13:35:14 -0500 From: "Roque Gagliano (rogaglia)" To: "diversity@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Simple proposal on Geographic diversity Thread-Index: AQHOPGN29kijaVo710azXvI/1Js59g== Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 18:35:13 +0000 Message-ID: References: <516F085B.2000602@cs.tcd.ie>, <1752ED95-0D36-42CE-AC02-F31AF2A1425D@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <1752ED95-0D36-42CE-AC02-F31AF2A1425D@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.155.52.190] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B5787CB5-B2CF-4FE6-945E-FBA175922992"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Diversity] Simple proposal on Geographic diversity X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 18:35:16 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B5787CB5-B2CF-4FE6-945E-FBA175922992 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, I have a simple proposal.=20 When the RFC editor is about to publish a document, it should ask the = author on which geography it wants to be identified by. Not to be = published in the document but for keeping track of the statistics. This is similar from when you are asked to identify your "race" in = normal government form and you have the freedom to select the one that = most represent you. What is my point? I think Jari's graphs are misleading. They represent = geographic diversity based on the region of the address in the document = but not necessarily the geographic origin that the author would like to = be recorder by. I give you an example, I wrote RFC 5963 while I was = living in Uruguay but at time it was published I had moved to = Switzerland and thus it is recorded as a European RFC. However, If = asked, I would have identified myself as Uruguayan. Similarly, there are hundred of Asian/SouthAmerican/African authors that = currently live abroad but identifies it-selves by their country of = origin and not of residency. 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V9Iy6eqt6S2pP21EekbvXypx/2p81h8dPyfzEuJVWEm5hrmrHW4/+EPpgLdxnQ40I8wOfsW2McUV AFKJNG6ER3svlR72BUq/csOnejzexDfgNioR63XprjuVtJBC3fVg0iRv1/Pv/Z1H10+tAAAAAAAA --Apple-Mail=_B5787CB5-B2CF-4FE6-945E-FBA175922992-- From lars@netapp.com Thu Apr 18 12:12:18 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B065021F92BD for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2013 12:12:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.49 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.49 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.109, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pfNw2ZDtZZlq for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2013 12:12:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx12.netapp.com (mx12.netapp.com [216.240.18.77]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3200221F934C for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2013 12:12:18 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.87,503,1363158000"; d="scan'208";a="42098989" Received: from smtp1.corp.netapp.com ([10.57.156.124]) by mx12-out.netapp.com with ESMTP; 18 Apr 2013 12:12:17 -0700 Received: from vmwexceht01-prd.hq.netapp.com (vmwexceht01-prd.hq.netapp.com [10.106.76.239]) by smtp1.corp.netapp.com (8.13.1/8.13.1/NTAP-1.6) with ESMTP id r3IJCGJb017272; Thu, 18 Apr 2013 12:12:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SACEXCMBX01-PRD.hq.netapp.com ([169.254.2.71]) by vmwexceht01-prd.hq.netapp.com ([10.106.76.239]) with mapi id 14.02.0342.003; Thu, 18 Apr 2013 12:12:16 -0700 From: "Eggert, Lars" To: Jari Arkko Thread-Topic: RFCs accepted journal articles (was Re: [Diversity] Defining the Diversity problems) Thread-Index: AQHOPGijXfvjJadJ0kuJcSZdS8msYQ== Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 19:12:15 +0000 Message-ID: <09609744-6380-4B5C-951C-B7D4A53614AB@netapp.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130414103846.0b7dab40@elandnews.com> <516ECBF8.7060001@isdg.net> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E611302A7587@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> <832D3BF4-7A27-4DC7-8F19-BB8844FCD985@netapp.com> <516EF853.3010803@cs.tcd.ie> <516F53E3.5040408@ericsson.com> <1BC72FF7-B1B7-4E8D-B24F-56A1E368C793@piuha.net> In-Reply-To: <1BC72FF7-B1B7-4E8D-B24F-56A1E368C793@piuha.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.104.60.116] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <9C93DEDCE51A6142B5F8FAA788F4ABB7@tahoe.netapp.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "" , Suresh Krishnan , Stephen Farrell Subject: [Diversity] RFCs accepted journal articles (was Re: Defining the Diversity problems) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 19:12:18 -0000 On Apr 17, 2013, at 23:38, Jari Arkko wrote: > Maybe Lars could work on getting at least IRTF RFCs accepted similarly as= journal articles in some key institutions :-) Brian Carpenter and Craig Partridge have tried to make this argument, unfor= tunately without much luck: http://www.sigcomm.org/sites/default/files/ccr/papers/2010/January/1672308-= 1672315.pdf Lars= From sm@resistor.net Thu Apr 18 14:57:43 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2B0021F912C for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2013 14:57:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.339 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.339 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.260, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0vt9YM9XBUB5 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2013 14:57:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE1F721F9128 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2013 14:57:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.resistor.net (IDENT:sm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r3ILvZDh022121; Thu, 18 Apr 2013 14:57:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1366322260; bh=f2LdQEY6lVCzhwp6TGToSfBDTLBUvniApJiUkk96zs0=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=j6WLHWC8ybDsfoLfWIpeLuhUmzdyZe2ugx/XALClHBT9O4j3QRV+MdHxgiGL3/ZXA nI7R9ThN1Y4jPofr+wp+dee2O6HU42i/3GwddgfpqJSaOls9NYEOnHBpdwrqloiG+J 5XZItSZcQSRvw/d67jH06PVvhiOvvf8Ayiqjl8Dg= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1366322260; i=@resistor.net; bh=f2LdQEY6lVCzhwp6TGToSfBDTLBUvniApJiUkk96zs0=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=WiDjQaa0Wu74yU8yXG0PQNZCTLXhWHhFf11daXcjAMn6nmxED/uOpq0I8RjTytwvU KFDiwsOBYwH5IIowJhZ9pAEHVGmDvAOs5w33+1kJmeqbRr/lPxhCmV6/KAMeyJfyMv 1n6LrI/Y1cC+AZniiAs20lzS6o6nmtBmR0h4FhcE= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20130418121131.0f0a9be8@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 14:53:15 -0700 To: "Roque Gagliano (rogaglia)" From: SM In-Reply-To: References: <516F085B.2000602@cs.tcd.ie> <1752ED95-0D36-42CE-AC02-F31AF2A1425D@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] Simple proposal on Geographic diversity X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 21:57:43 -0000 Hi Roque, At 11:35 18-04-2013, Roque Gagliano (rogaglia) wrote: >I have a simple proposal. > >When the RFC editor is about to publish a document, it should ask >the author on which geography it wants to be identified by. Not to >be published in the document but for keeping track of the statistics. The definition of diaspora is: "people settled far from their ancestral homelands". In simple terms people not living in a country can fudge geographic diversity statistics. The diaspora might not have much in common with the country of origin. Quoting Jari Arkko out of context [1]: "Overall participation is concentrated in some areas of the world, with little participation from Africa and South America, for instance." What would the IETF get if there is more participation from South America [2]? Regards, -sm 1. http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg78379.html 2. I think that there is scope for more participation from South America. From lars@netapp.com Tue Apr 23 10:40:30 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D86AB21F9552; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 10:40:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.111 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.111 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.310, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, SARE_SUB_RAND_LETTRS4=0.799] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a-XBmHisBY-N; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 10:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx12.netapp.com (mx12.netapp.com [216.240.18.77]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7B7F21F93F1; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 10:40:28 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.87,536,1363158000"; d="scan'208";a="44007502" Received: from smtp2.corp.netapp.com ([10.57.159.114]) by mx12-out.netapp.com with ESMTP; 23 Apr 2013 10:40:28 -0700 Received: from vmwexceht05-prd.hq.netapp.com (exchsmtp.hq.netapp.com [10.106.77.35]) by smtp2.corp.netapp.com (8.13.1/8.13.1/NTAP-1.6) with ESMTP id r3NHeS2C012692; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 10:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SACEXCMBX01-PRD.hq.netapp.com ([169.254.2.71]) by vmwexceht05-prd.hq.netapp.com ([10.106.77.35]) with mapi id 14.02.0342.003; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 10:40:28 -0700 From: "Eggert, Lars" To: "diversity@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: "emerging regions" IETF/IRTF discussion list Thread-Index: AQHOQEmkRdQ0/GeXdUimBaMiF9S1YA== Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 17:40:27 +0000 Message-ID: <6FFB3524-E59A-41CC-B535-1F977F355142@netapp.com> References: <516F085B.2000602@cs.tcd.ie> <516F1110.60001@gmail.com> <59349D98-BF88-436D-88B4-117E339D2095@netapp.com> In-Reply-To: <59349D98-BF88-436D-88B4-117E339D2095@netapp.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.104.60.116] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "ericas@ietf.org" , IETF-Discussion list Subject: [Diversity] "emerging regions" IETF/IRTF discussion list X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: "ericas@ietf.org" List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 17:40:30 -0000 Hi, On Apr 17, 2013, at 14:50, "Eggert, Lars" wrote: > I've been talking to a few folks about whether there would be interest an= d energy for a new IRTF RG focusing on - for the lack of a better term - "I= nternet challenges and solutions for emerging regions." Basically, a forum = where we can discuss the challenges the Internet is facing in those regions= , and share experiences and proposals to successfully address some of those= challenges. ... > I'd be thrilled to discuss this in more detail with interested folks. Thi= s list, however, is probably not the place for this. Contact me directly, a= nd maybe I'll set up a separate list under irtf.org. I head the secretariat create a discussion list for "Emerging Regions Inter= net Challenges And Solutions" aka ERICAS. Subscribe at https://www.ietf.org= /mailman/listinfo/ericas and email the list at ericas@ietf.org. Please feel free to invite everyone you feel should be involved in this dis= cussion, IETF attendee or not! Also, while I'll be on the list and at least initially act as administrator= in terms of whitelisting posts, etc., I do believe strongly that in order = for this discussion/effort to be useful, it needs to be owned by and run by= a group of people from those emerging regions. So I encourage everyone to = step up and actively shape the discussion! Thanks, Lars= From lars@netapp.com Tue Apr 23 10:44:37 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF64121F962E; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 10:44:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.989 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.989 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.189, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, SARE_SUB_RAND_LETTRS4=0.799] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qqX607VTIJ0w; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 10:44:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx12.netapp.com (mx12.netapp.com [216.240.18.77]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16E9321F9620; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 10:44:37 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.87,536,1363158000"; d="scan'208";a="44009222" Received: from smtp1.corp.netapp.com ([10.57.156.124]) by mx12-out.netapp.com with ESMTP; 23 Apr 2013 10:44:36 -0700 Received: from vmwexceht03-prd.hq.netapp.com (exchsmtp.hq.netapp.com [10.106.76.241]) by smtp1.corp.netapp.com (8.13.1/8.13.1/NTAP-1.6) with ESMTP id r3NHiaYs004651; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 10:44:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SACEXCMBX01-PRD.hq.netapp.com ([169.254.2.71]) by vmwexceht03-prd.hq.netapp.com ([10.106.76.241]) with mapi id 14.02.0342.003; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 10:44:36 -0700 From: "Eggert, Lars" To: "" Thread-Topic: "emerging regions" IETF/IRTF discussion list Thread-Index: AQHOQEmkRdQ0/GeXdUimBaMiF9S1YJjkiTYA Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 17:44:36 +0000 Message-ID: <189939FA-7B6D-4ADB-83B9-E0CD8DD209B2@netapp.com> References: <516F085B.2000602@cs.tcd.ie> <516F1110.60001@gmail.com> <59349D98-BF88-436D-88B4-117E339D2095@netapp.com> <6FFB3524-E59A-41CC-B535-1F977F355142@netapp.com> In-Reply-To: <6FFB3524-E59A-41CC-B535-1F977F355142@netapp.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.104.60.116] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <2094F9B94463A64290EE96CB91C8E3C0@tahoe.netapp.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "" , IETF-Discussion list Subject: Re: [Diversity] "emerging regions" IETF/IRTF discussion list X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 17:44:37 -0000 CORRECTION: The list got created under irtf.org, i.e.: Subscribe at https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/ericas and email the lis= t at ericas@irtf.org. Lars (The list creation message I got from the system said it was created under = both the IETF and IRTF domains, but apparently not.) On Apr 23, 2013, at 10:40, Lars Eggert wrote: > Hi, >=20 > On Apr 17, 2013, at 14:50, "Eggert, Lars" wrote: >> I've been talking to a few folks about whether there would be interest a= nd energy for a new IRTF RG focusing on - for the lack of a better term - "= Internet challenges and solutions for emerging regions." Basically, a forum= where we can discuss the challenges the Internet is facing in those region= s, and share experiences and proposals to successfully address some of thos= e challenges. > ... >> I'd be thrilled to discuss this in more detail with interested folks. Th= is list, however, is probably not the place for this. Contact me directly, = and maybe I'll set up a separate list under irtf.org. >=20 > I head the secretariat create a discussion list for "Emerging Regions Int= ernet Challenges And Solutions" aka ERICAS. Subscribe at https://www.ietf.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/ericas and email the list at ericas@ietf.org. >=20 > Please feel free to invite everyone you feel should be involved in this d= iscussion, IETF attendee or not! >=20 > Also, while I'll be on the list and at least initially act as administrat= or in terms of whitelisting posts, etc., I do believe strongly that in orde= r for this discussion/effort to be useful, it needs to be owned by and run = by a group of people from those emerging regions. So I encourage everyone t= o step up and actively shape the discussion! >=20 > Thanks, > Lars From swb@internet2.edu Tue Apr 23 10:48:15 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB67F21F96B3; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 10:48:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.8 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.8 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_SUB_RAND_LETTRS4=0.799] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4A0Umq9dVs4S; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 10:48:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tx2outboundpool.messaging.microsoft.com (tx2ehsobe002.messaging.microsoft.com [65.55.88.12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38C0F21F96B1; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 10:48:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail145-tx2-R.bigfish.com (10.9.14.249) by TX2EHSOBE002.bigfish.com (10.9.40.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.225.23; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 17:48:14 +0000 Received: from mail145-tx2 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail145-tx2-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62315201CD; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 17:48:14 +0000 (UTC) X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:157.56.237.101; KIP:(null); UIP:(null); IPV:NLI; H:BY2PRD0810HT004.namprd08.prod.outlook.com; RD:none; EFVD:NLI X-SpamScore: 7 X-BigFish: S7(zzbb2dI98dIda00h1432Idc73hzz1f42h1fc6h1d77h1ee6h1de0h1fdah1202h1e76h1d1ah1d2ah1082kzz8275dhz2dh2a8h668h839h947hd25he5bhf0ah1288h12a5h12a9h12bdh137ah13b6h1441h14ddh1504h1537h153bh162dh1631h1758h1765h18e1h190ch1946h19b4h19c3h19ceh1ad9h1b0ah1b1cn1b1bi1155h) Received: from mail145-tx2 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail145-tx2 (MessageSwitch) id 1366739291771813_28920; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 17:48:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from TX2EHSMHS005.bigfish.com (unknown [10.9.14.228]) by mail145-tx2.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEE71120043; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 17:48:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from BY2PRD0810HT004.namprd08.prod.outlook.com (157.56.237.101) by TX2EHSMHS005.bigfish.com (10.9.99.105) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.225.23; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 17:48:10 +0000 Received: from internet2-95-45.internet2.edu (192.54.95.45) by pod51019.outlook.com (10.255.94.39) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.16.299.2; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 17:48:03 +0000 Message-ID: <5176C952.2090602@internet2.edu> Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 13:48:02 -0400 From: Scott Brim User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130328 Thunderbird/17.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Eggert, Lars" References: <516F085B.2000602@cs.tcd.ie> <516F1110.60001@gmail.com> <59349D98-BF88-436D-88B4-117E339D2095@netapp.com> <6FFB3524-E59A-41CC-B535-1F977F355142@netapp.com> <189939FA-7B6D-4ADB-83B9-E0CD8DD209B2@netapp.com> In-Reply-To: <189939FA-7B6D-4ADB-83B9-E0CD8DD209B2@netapp.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [192.54.95.45] X-OriginatorOrg: internet2.edu X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 10:55:57 -0700 Cc: "" , "" , IETF-Discussion list Subject: Re: [Diversity] "emerging regions" IETF/IRTF discussion list X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 17:48:15 -0000 On 04/23/13 13:44, Eggert, Lars allegedly wrote: > CORRECTION: The list got created under irtf.org, i.e.: > > Subscribe at https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/ericas and email the list at ericas@irtf.org. If you subscribe at ietf, you get a confirmation request from irtf. :-) From yding@cs.helsinki.fi Wed Apr 24 04:22:53 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D77621F8E96 for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2013 04:22:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.001, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z34d8KeEPZ7I for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2013 04:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cs.helsinki.fi (courier.cs.helsinki.fi [128.214.9.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5B1021F8A08 for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2013 04:22:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.93.111] (host-94-101-2-100.igua.fi [94.101.2.100]) (AUTH: PLAIN yding, TLS: TLSv1/SSLv3,256bits,AES256-SHA) by mail.cs.helsinki.fi with esmtp; Wed, 24 Apr 2013 14:22:51 +0300 id 00068139.5177C08B.00006AFE Message-ID: <5177C089.1000904@cs.helsinki.fi> Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 14:22:49 +0300 From: Aaron Yi DING Organization: Helsinki University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130328 Thunderbird/17.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Eggert, Lars" , Jari Arkko References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130414103846.0b7dab40@elandnews.com> <516ECBF8.7060001@isdg.net> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E611302A7587@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> <832D3BF4-7A27-4DC7-8F19-BB8844FCD985@netapp.com> <516EF853.3010803@cs.tcd.ie> <516F53E3.5040408@ericsson.com> <1BC72FF7-B1B7-4E8D-B24F-56A1E368C793@piuha.net> <09609744-6380-4B5C-951C-B7D4A53614AB@netapp.com> In-Reply-To: <09609744-6380-4B5C-951C-B7D4A53614AB@netapp.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "" , Suresh Krishnan , Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [Diversity] RFCs accepted journal articles (was Re: Defining the Diversity problems) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 11:22:53 -0000 On 18/04/13 22:12, Eggert, Lars wrote: > On Apr 17, 2013, at 23:38, Jari Arkko wrote: >> Maybe Lars could work on getting at least IRTF RFCs accepted similarly as journal articles in some key institutions :-) One thing that may help (from IETF side) is to cite in RFCs and/or I-Ds the research work e.g. papers that are done by IETF researchers, or their content being relevant to the technical scheme. Citation is an important factor that matters to academic research. My 2 cents, Aaron >> Brian Carpenter and Craig Partridge have tried to make this argument, unfortunately without much luck: >> >> http://www.sigcomm.org/sites/default/files/ccr/papers/2010/January/1672308-1672315.pdf >> >> Lars From lars@netapp.com Wed Apr 24 07:14:20 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43A8D21F8BE4 for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2013 07:14:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.356 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.356 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.243, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eEZLca1JzzS3 for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2013 07:14:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx12.netapp.com (mx12.netapp.com [216.240.18.77]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8053121F87B1 for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2013 07:14:19 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.87,542,1363158000"; d="scan'208";a="44358830" Received: from smtp1.corp.netapp.com ([10.57.156.124]) by mx12-out.netapp.com with ESMTP; 24 Apr 2013 07:14:09 -0700 Received: from vmwexceht04-prd.hq.netapp.com (vmwexceht04-prd.hq.netapp.com [10.106.77.34]) by smtp1.corp.netapp.com (8.13.1/8.13.1/NTAP-1.6) with ESMTP id r3OEE7r9022407; Wed, 24 Apr 2013 07:14:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SACEXCMBX01-PRD.hq.netapp.com ([169.254.2.71]) by vmwexceht04-prd.hq.netapp.com ([10.106.77.34]) with mapi id 14.02.0342.003; Wed, 24 Apr 2013 07:14:06 -0700 From: "Eggert, Lars" To: Aaron Yi DING Thread-Topic: [Diversity] RFCs accepted journal articles (was Re: Defining the Diversity problems) Thread-Index: AQHOQN4RJkDqWWeYjkOJo6EGxE2Uc5jl35GA Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 14:14:06 +0000 Message-ID: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20130414103846.0b7dab40@elandnews.com> <516ECBF8.7060001@isdg.net> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E611302A7587@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> <832D3BF4-7A27-4DC7-8F19-BB8844FCD985@netapp.com> <516EF853.3010803@cs.tcd.ie> <516F53E3.5040408@ericsson.com> <1BC72FF7-B1B7-4E8D-B24F-56A1E368C793@piuha.net> <09609744-6380-4B5C-951C-B7D4A53614AB@netapp.com> <5177C089.1000904@cs.helsinki.fi> In-Reply-To: <5177C089.1000904@cs.helsinki.fi> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.104.60.116] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" , Jari Arkko , Suresh Krishnan , Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [Diversity] RFCs accepted journal articles (was Re: Defining the Diversity problems) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 14:14:20 -0000 Hi, On Apr 24, 2013, at 4:22, Aaron Yi DING wrote: > One thing that may help (from IETF side) is to cite in RFCs and/or I-Ds t= he research work e.g. papers that are done by IETF researchers, or their co= ntent being relevant to the technical scheme. >=20 > Citation is an important factor that matters to academic research. good point. Also, maybe the details of this discussion are better had on the irtf-discu= ss list? Lars= From johnsonhammond2@hushmail.com Sat Apr 27 10:07:26 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 507FE21F983B for ; Sat, 27 Apr 2013 10:07:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oBWZ-uUoQqFo for ; Sat, 27 Apr 2013 10:07:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp5.hushmail.com (smtp5a.hushmail.com [65.39.178.235]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1149721F9837 for ; Sat, 27 Apr 2013 10:07:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp5.hushmail.com (smtp5a.hushmail.com [65.39.178.235]) by smtp5.hushmail.com (Postfix) with SMTP id CD176580A4 for ; Sat, 27 Apr 2013 17:07:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.hushmail.com (w8.hushmail.com [65.39.178.52]) by smtp5.hushmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP for ; Sat, 27 Apr 2013 17:07:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: by smtp.hushmail.com (Postfix, from userid 99) id 76FC514DBDE; Sat, 27 Apr 2013 17:07:25 +0000 (UTC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 13:07:25 -0400 To: diversity@ietf.org From: johnsonhammond2@hushmail.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Message-Id: <20130427170725.76FC514DBDE@smtp.hushmail.com> Subject: [Diversity] Biggest Fake Conference in Computer Science X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 18:10:51 -0000 Biggest Fake Conference in Computer Science We are researchers from different parts of the world and conducted a study on the world’s biggest bogus computer science conference WORLDCOMP ( http://sites.google.com/site/worlddump1 ) organized by Prof. Hamid Arabnia from University of Georgia, USA. We submitted a fake paper to WORLDCOMP 2011 and again (the same paper with a modified title) to WORLDCOMP 2012. This paper had numerous fundamental mistakes. Sample statements from that paper include: (1). Binary logic is fuzzy logic and vice versa (2). Pascal developed fuzzy logic (3). Object oriented languages do not exhibit any polymorphism or inheritance (4). TCP and IP are synonyms and are part of OSI model (5). Distributed systems deal with only one computer (6). Laptop is an example for a super computer (7). Operating system is an example for computer hardware Also, our paper did not express any conceptual meaning. However, it was accepted both the times without any modifications (and without any reviews) and we were invited to submit the final paper and a payment of $500+ fee to present the paper. We decided to use the fee for better purposes than making Prof. Hamid Arabnia (Chairman of WORLDCOMP) rich. After that, we received few reminders from WORLDCOMP to pay the fee but we never responded. We MUST say that you should look at the above website if you have any thoughts to submit a paper to WORLDCOMP. DBLP and other indexing agencies have stopped indexing WORLDCOMP’s proceedings since 2011 due to its fakeness. See http://www.informatik.uni-trier.de/~ley/db/conf/icai/index.html for of one of the conferences of WORLDCOMP and notice that there is no listing after 2010. See Section 2 of http://sites.google.com/site/dumpconf for comments from well-known researchers about WORLDCOMP. The status of your WORLDCOMP papers can be changed from scientific to other (i.e., junk or non-technical) at any time. Better not to have a paper than having it in WORLDCOMP and spoil the resume and peace of mind forever! Our study revealed that WORLDCOMP is a money making business, using University of Georgia mask, for Prof. Hamid Arabnia. He is throwing out a small chunk of that money (around 20 dollars per paper published in WORLDCOMP’s proceedings) to his puppet (Mr. Ashu Solo or A.M.G. Solo) who publicizes WORLDCOMP and also defends it at various forums, using fake/anonymous names. The puppet uses fake names and defames other conferences to divert traffic to WORLDCOMP. He also makes anonymous phone calls and tries to threaten the critiques of WORLDCOMP (See Item 7 of Section 5 of above website). That is, the puppet does all his best to get a maximum number of papers published at WORLDCOMP to get more money into his (and Prof. Hamid Arabnia’s) pockets. Monte Carlo Resort (the venue of WORLDCOMP for more than 10 years, until 2012) has refused to provide the venue for WORLDCOMP’13 because of the fears of their image being tarnished due to WORLDCOMP’s fraudulent activities. That is why WORLDCOMP’13 is taking place at a different resort. WORLDCOMP will not be held after 2013. The draft paper submission deadline is over but still there are no committee members, no reviewers, and there is no conference Chairman. The only contact details available on WORLDCOMP’s website is just an email address! Let us make a direct request to Prof. Hamid arabnia: publish all reviews for all the papers (after blocking identifiable details) since 2000 conference. Reveal the names and affiliations of all the reviewers (for each year) and how many papers each reviewer had reviewed on average. We also request him to look at the Open Challenge (Section 6) at https://sites.google.com/site/moneycomp1 Sorry for posting to multiple lists. Spreading the word is the only way to stop this bogus conference. Please forward this message to other mailing lists and people. We are shocked with Prof. Hamid Arabnia and his puppet’s activities http://worldcomp-fake-bogus.blogspot.com Search Google using the keyword worldcomp fake for additional links. From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com Tue Apr 30 06:10:56 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A61721F9BB9 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 06:10:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.949 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.949 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.649, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bsqZTk+LMM3P for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 06:10:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pd0-f181.google.com (mail-pd0-f181.google.com [209.85.192.181]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BAB221F9BA3 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 06:10:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pd0-f181.google.com with SMTP id q10so294920pdj.26 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 06:10:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=tUMl05aQZRHtmYTuQVEnjIoNuXoN3QC0KksLw2Km7r8=; b=KQYhR6h4Zn9TCE2M7DVFhHrjC1sT1osut70ra+bBi8b+RfVJKSRW15drOMlKrtOiZi nRV2Zm1yGzD4f2QlD2VNy15d8teH0cdufVL0h6vvySu6Ta9giJIkksS0qH19Z5dZRAPR qMYUxd6em/3C3FveUoDZa6QBUDS+J8ePBmibPeNqcukJ3U36YYKjaLwSblsRdnrbBZYA ej7BmDi4w/dzxquRl3PHz+EauI6wybu1BjFyM0an8y3VpcXjDe211NOxi0QuZMkebg/x Bm1TUG+7y7aAJtUptGw0mCVvxPKsFDSF+dSo6IvORJWeM2CUoESCnuZvjxddtPNU7ann Y9Iw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.66.144.5 with SMTP id si5mr48661765pab.6.1367327448331; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 06:10:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.230.35 with HTTP; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 06:10:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 14:10:48 +0100 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: diversity@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b6dca14d97b2004db93bacf Subject: [Diversity] Diversity of User Cultures and Diversity of Management while maintaining Quality X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 13:10:56 -0000 --047d7b6dca14d97b2004db93bacf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 +++++++++++++Possible Duplication ++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++ My posts may be blocked by IETF+++++++++ Hi (I missed this discussion list so I will add my thoughts, sorry if this message is long, I am working on my language to be efficient) Is there other reasons for the results and conclusion the message [1] got to? Is there something we can fix in the ietf-culture or ietf-procedures to make the diversity more established? I think that female managers/leaders are important to any world-organisation to get successful, and to be specific, I will recommend all world NPOs (Non-Profit Org.) need gender diversity (male or female, which one may be minority) at *least* 10-20 percent of minority-gender management teams. An NPO with all male or all female management is not successful for the world of diverse *gender* and *users*. Management skills if gender-diversed will reflect better community involvement, choices, culture, and decisions. We need users to be diverse from different cities and different markets, and from different origins/places of the world. As the Internet community is changing every day increasing, but they may not use IETF. Who can the IETF users work to make the IETF vision true. IMHO, Organisation Management objectives are to make 1) *users* increase in numbers, 2) increase in diverse, 3) increase in satisfaction, and 4) high quality RFCs applicable for the community. If only present/current users select the management there is no dought that their decisions reflect users-culture and awareness, but do they increase the three objectives? My concerns in the diversity issue is to focus on the diversity of *management-gender* and *ietf-users* to benefit future decisions and make *awareness* into the ietf-culture. [1] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg78882.html Regards, Abdussalam Participant from Africa --047d7b6dca14d97b2004db93bacf Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+++++++++++++Possible Duplication ++++++++++++++++++
++++++++++++ My posts may be blocked by IETF+++++++++
Hi
(I=A0missed this= =A0discussion list so I will add my thoughts, sorry if this message is long= , I am working on my language to be efficient)
=A0
Is there other reasons for the results and conclusion the=20 message [1] got to? Is there something we can fix in the ietf-culture or ietf-procedures to make the diversity more established? I think that
female managers/leaders are important to any world-organisation to get
successful, and to be specific, I will recommend all world NPOs
(Non-Profit Org.) need gender diversity (male or female, which one may
be minority) at *least* 10-20 percent of minority-gender management teams. = An NPO with=20 all male or all female management is not successful for the world of
diverse *gender* and *users*. Management skills if gender-diversed
will reflect better community involvement, choices, culture, and
decisions.
=A0
We need users to be diverse from different cities and different markets= , and from different origins/places of the world. As the Internet community= is changing every day increasing, but they may not use IETF. Who can the I= ETF users work to make the IETF vision true.

=A0IMHO, Organisation Management objectives are to make 1) *users*
increase in numbers, 2) increase in diverse,=A03) increase in
satisfaction, and 4) high quality RFCs applicable for the community. If onl= y present/current users select the management=20 there is no dought that their decisions reflect users-culture and=20 awareness, but do they increase the three objectives?

My concerns in the diversity issue is to focus on the diversity of
*management-gender* and *ietf-users* to benefit future decisions and
make *awareness* into the ietf-culture.
[1] http://www.ietf.org= /mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg78882.html

Regards,
Abdussalam
Participant from Africa

--047d7b6dca14d97b2004db93bacf-- From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com Tue Apr 30 04:09:57 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0805621F9BE0 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 04:09:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=4.299, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AD35mrcdy7ag for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 04:09:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-f44.google.com (mail-pa0-f44.google.com [209.85.220.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DD0C21F9BCA for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 04:09:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pa0-f44.google.com with SMTP id rl6so293989pac.17 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 04:09:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=dkmFFpx+Pi82KK4knJXYy32pqqXhQgC9YUbI9u1+zrY=; b=Y4l4oMbrf8xUF+oUqGdKRwxm7Equ06VH8QpccVKxhcRqYavxTeNtOxp3YPxlULE7ip D7jiQYq7CWt8J4ktlGyr26jPBcU+NnjjLj0cEpSlHJlIKEI5p+XpolRPqJ7cGE7SkiHt FfJWHI/ZZo4/dkJnoUzRypoSZyaRifgl3ef9ugZT/TL0ZVyJSmVqeUFbMu50Uwt5s7xf WKaeoOoDXNmGTMo0a8P76kehsHepdf+OgnlZH2tw4MVksOsgJpKxbQzHdd4amz7Zw573 +m7ozDAFTnarr/EoLCVMaj4lewgqPfo2nYTmJdaYxOqkJJzA9HIldQr0/oMt4ZqEgsUl h59w== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.71.164 with SMTP id w4mr6440395pbu.113.1367320189252; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 04:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.230.35 with HTTP; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 04:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 12:09:49 +0100 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: diversity@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec544effa2cc28304db920a97 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 08:35:07 -0700 Subject: [Diversity] Diversity of User Cultures and Diversity of Management while maintaining Quality X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:09:57 -0000 --bcaec544effa2cc28304db920a97 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi (I missed this discussion list so I will add my thoughts, sorry if this message is long, I am working on my language to be efficient) Is there other reasons for the results and conclusion the message [1] got to? Is there something we can fix in the ietf-culture or ietf-procedures to make the diversity more established? I think that female managers/leaders are important to any world-organisation to get successful, and to be specific, I will recommend all world NPOs (Non-Profit Org.) need gender diversity (male or female, which one may be minority) at *least* 10-20 percent of minority-gender management teams. An NPO with all male or all female management is not successful for the world of diverse *gender* and *users*. Management skills if gender-diversed will reflect better community involvement, choices, culture, and decisions. We need users to be diverse from different cities and different markets, and from different origins/places of the world. As the Internet community is changing every day increasing, but they may not use IETF. Who can the IETF users work to make the IETF vision true. IMHO, Organisation Management objectives are to make 1) *users* increase in numbers, 2) increase in diverse, 3) increase in satisfaction, and 4) high quality RFCs applicable for the community. If only present/current users select the management there is no dought that their decisions reflect users-culture and awareness, but do they increase the three objectives? My concerns in the diversity issue is to focus on the diversity of *management-gender* and *ietf-users* to benefit future decisions and make *awareness* into the ietf-culture. [1] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg78882.html Regards, Abdussalam Participant from Africa --bcaec544effa2cc28304db920a97 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi
(I=A0missed this=A0discussion list so = I will add my thoughts, sorry if this message is long, I am working on my l= anguage to be efficient)
=A0
Is there other reasons for the results and conclusion the=20 message [1] got to? Is there something we can fix in the ietf-culture or ietf-procedures to make the diversity more established? I think that
female managers/leaders are important to any world-organisation to get
successful, and to be specific, I will recommend all world NPOs
(Non-Profit Org.) need gender diversity (male or female, which one may
be minority) at *least* 10-20 percent of minority-gender management teams. = An NPO with=20 all male or all female management is not successful for the world of
diverse *gender* and *users*. Management skills if gender-diversed
will reflect better community involvement, choices, culture, and
decisions.
=A0
We need users to be diverse from different cities and different markets= , and from different origins/places of the world. As the Internet community= is changing every day increasing, but they may not use IETF. Who can the I= ETF users work to make the IETF vision true.

=A0IMHO, Organisation Management objectives are to make 1) *users*
increase in numbers, 2) increase in diverse,=A03) increase in
satisfaction, and 4) high quality RFCs applicable for the community. If onl= y present/current users select the management=20 there is no dought that their decisions reflect users-culture and=20 awareness, but do they increase the three objectives?

My concerns in the diversity issue is to focus on the diversity of
*management-gender* and *ietf-users* to benefit future decisions and
make *awareness* into the ietf-culture.
[1] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/= ietf/current/msg78882.html

Regards,
Abdussalam
Participant from Africa
--bcaec544effa2cc28304db920a97-- From lars@netapp.com Tue Apr 30 21:41:47 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B08221F8556 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 21:41:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.854 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.854 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.745, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U-ee2Tie6nRG for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 21:41:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx12.netapp.com (mx12.netapp.com [216.240.18.77]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFFD921F854F for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 21:41:38 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.87,587,1363158000"; d="scan'208";a="46714688" Received: from smtp1.corp.netapp.com ([10.57.156.124]) by mx12-out.netapp.com with ESMTP; 30 Apr 2013 21:41:38 -0700 Received: from vmwexceht01-prd.hq.netapp.com (vmwexceht01-prd.hq.netapp.com [10.106.76.239]) by smtp1.corp.netapp.com (8.13.1/8.13.1/NTAP-1.6) with ESMTP id r414fcJ6002456 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 21:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SACEXCMBX01-PRD.hq.netapp.com ([169.254.2.71]) by vmwexceht01-prd.hq.netapp.com ([10.106.76.239]) with mapi id 14.02.0342.003; Tue, 30 Apr 2013 21:41:38 -0700 From: "Eggert, Lars" To: "diversity@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Program for Women Internships for the Linux Kernel Thread-Index: AQHORiYqH6sARhXK3EmFN2B59rhIfA== Date: Wed, 1 May 2013 04:41:37 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.104.60.117] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <7AC0B7E369B1F44CA3917D495E967655@tahoe.netapp.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Diversity] Program for Women Internships for the Linux Kernel X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 May 2013 04:41:47 -0000 FYI, the Linux foundation is starting a great program: https://www.linux.co= m/news/featured-blogs/167-amanda-mcpherson/716409-announcing-outreach-progr= am-for-women-internships-for-the-linux-kernel-please-apply Lars=