From kathleen.moriarty@emc.com Fri Nov 1 06:44:33 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33FFF21E8682 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2013 06:44:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.691 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.691 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.092, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mwUnMPV1U-8S for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2013 06:44:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailuogwdur.emc.com (mailuogwdur.emc.com [128.221.224.79]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9127221E810A for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2013 06:34:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maildlpprd52.lss.emc.com (maildlpprd52.lss.emc.com [10.106.48.156]) by mailuogwprd53.lss.emc.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0) with ESMTP id rA1DYdak031918 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 1 Nov 2013 09:34:40 -0400 X-DKIM: OpenDKIM Filter v2.4.3 mailuogwprd53.lss.emc.com rA1DYdak031918 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=emc.com; s=jan2013; t=1383312881; bh=U0GN/5Imv4fr/cfnUryjwMLPNas=; h=From:To:CC:Date:Subject:Message-ID:References:In-Reply-To: Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; b=eAmGF3gXWmNajmc/k9xDQcTHwFzZWawUM9K8F4cY6YaEOSSqBpcwxpWGchu9HPnit k8gUpwcVO77sCMjRIn8hpUfrDbbIO1w+dKyAR70mMmx0znelDOEFmm2iKcgGiESEgV IxIbBrP6s3px2E82H4WNNrzNUJc0eqSrhhsZS0Yw= X-DKIM: OpenDKIM Filter v2.4.3 mailuogwprd53.lss.emc.com rA1DYdak031918 Received: from mailusrhubprd04.lss.emc.com (mailusrhubprd04.lss.emc.com [10.253.24.22]) by maildlpprd52.lss.emc.com (RSA Interceptor); Fri, 1 Nov 2013 09:34:29 -0400 Received: from mxhub16.corp.emc.com (mxhub16.corp.emc.com [128.222.70.237]) by mailusrhubprd04.lss.emc.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0) with ESMTP id rA1DYSUW004962 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 1 Nov 2013 09:34:28 -0400 Received: from mx15a.corp.emc.com ([169.254.1.239]) by mxhub16.corp.emc.com ([128.222.70.237]) with mapi; Fri, 1 Nov 2013 09:34:28 -0400 From: "Moriarty, Kathleen" To: S Moonesamy , Spencer Dawkins , "adrian@olddog.co.uk" Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 09:34:26 -0400 Thread-Topic: [Diversity] Attracting new people and work into the IETF Thread-Index: Ac7WvF+B73zhuN6SSeWwlhVYmnHUjgASosHg Message-ID: References: <05b101ceb9da$fb0e98d0$f12bca70$@olddog.co.uk> <526FD5F3.7070309@gmail.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20131031203206.0ccbbc98@elandnews.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20131031203206.0ccbbc98@elandnews.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sentrion-Hostname: mailusrhubprd04.lss.emc.com X-RSA-Classifications: DLM_1, public Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Diversity] Attracting new people and work into the IETF X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2013 13:44:33 -0000 I would say the goal is participation. It should be fine for someone to wa= tch a video the next day as long as they understand questions are not close= d out and they have an opportunity to have their comments and questions bro= ught to the group on the mailing list. =20 Thanks, Kathleen -----Original Message----- From: S Moonesamy [mailto:sm+ietf@elandsys.com]=20 Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 12:15 AM To: Spencer Dawkins; Moriarty, Kathleen; adrian@olddog.co.uk Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] Attracting new people and work into the IETF Hi Spencer, At 08:36 29-10-2013, Spencer Dawkins wrote: >Kathleen, et al, would you think the next step would be people=20 >attending remotely in the middle of the night, or doing a pre-meeting=20 >in the local time zone, or something else I'm not thinking of? It is a matter of what the IETF wants to achieve. Does it want participati= on or attendance? Please note that the question is not addressed to you. My uninformed suggestion would be to favor local time zone. It is not poss= ible to say much about next steps as there aren't any resources available. Regards, S. Moonesamy From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com Fri Nov 1 09:34:35 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8929E11E8199 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2013 09:34:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.517 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.517 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.082, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FsfGB32MUQ7m for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2013 09:34:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pb0-x22c.google.com (mail-pb0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::22c]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5F1111E817D for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2013 09:34:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pb0-f44.google.com with SMTP id rp16so4514351pbb.31 for ; Fri, 01 Nov 2013 09:34:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=Kn4lrNhFiBeGFrfFsnTbE79Hwg2O7htYgoaG9h/3/JI=; b=TyiC9vpL5qAFBeEa+pO1KQ1YhG1wdHUpep6RrZx+URzFxgKUYsxA92ajc2qS92c8i8 ctaZ0GA8bAxAjIhVy48hE1x07iJ4F/doieaw919p2kx1P/iXZrN+P+Wnef60EG1cf5Eu YHqOzq+QdsKTvIbhhLAEPoY/hB/2BV5h/iUeLR9RlQPHC4/kR7yfChu+rtpGyah0c0B9 M1xehfOcP4bDRMoA8pnSOVk9pwQhw6a2RaW1G9x/MW4dgyDQaq2dYCHaXhHXv1rFkRzw WeQzAW0pEN5OM1KRfANnXzQ1NC43AJc4z83HyrpLvWxrkTSFP9Ot4sgqeZoDqNkRBuQS 0jqw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.66.119.78 with SMTP id ks14mr4025148pab.140.1383323673246; Fri, 01 Nov 2013 09:34:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.69.8.5 with HTTP; Fri, 1 Nov 2013 09:34:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <05b101ceb9da$fb0e98d0$f12bca70$@olddog.co.uk> <526FD5F3.7070309@gmail.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20131031203206.0ccbbc98@elandnews.com> Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 16:34:33 +0000 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: "Moriarty, Kathleen" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8ffbaf01275c1c04ea2024c3 Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" , "adrian@olddog.co.uk" , S Moonesamy Subject: Re: [Diversity] Attracting new people and work into the IETF X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2013 16:34:35 -0000 --e89a8ffbaf01275c1c04ea2024c3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I am working already on draft for participation of diversified IETF, which does not involve the fellowship solution (which I was not thinking it is a good way to attract), and without the mentoring solution (I prefere to have mentor IETF WG Chairs because they may be the source of problems). The draft will show the gap in IETF works and way of work that makes others not encouraged. I was discouraged many times in IETF and I think it is still not able to encourage diversity. It encourages only North America participants. Example: - IETF ignores participants that review by leaving editors to decide what to write into the document. AB On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 1:34 PM, Moriarty, Kathleen < kathleen.moriarty@emc.com> wrote: > I would say the goal is participation. It should be fine for someone to > watch a video the next day as long as they understand questions are not > closed out and they have an opportunity to have their comments and > questions brought to the group on the mailing list. > > Thanks, > Kathleen > > -----Original Message----- > From: S Moonesamy [mailto:sm+ietf@elandsys.com] > Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 12:15 AM > To: Spencer Dawkins; Moriarty, Kathleen; adrian@olddog.co.uk > Cc: diversity@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Diversity] Attracting new people and work into the IETF > > Hi Spencer, > At 08:36 29-10-2013, Spencer Dawkins wrote: > >Kathleen, et al, would you think the next step would be people > >attending remotely in the middle of the night, or doing a pre-meeting > >in the local time zone, or something else I'm not thinking of? > > It is a matter of what the IETF wants to achieve. Does it want > participation or attendance? Please note that the question is not > addressed to you. > > My uninformed suggestion would be to favor local time zone. It is not > possible to say much about next steps as there aren't any resources > available. > > Regards, > S. Moonesamy > > > > _______________________________________________ > diversity mailing list > diversity@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity > --e89a8ffbaf01275c1c04ea2024c3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am working already on draft for participation of di= versified IETF, which does not involve the fellowship solution (which I was= not thinking it is a good way to attract), and without the mentoring solut= ion (I prefere to have mentor IETF WG Chairs because they may be the source= of problems). The draft will show the gap in IETF works and=A0way of work = that makes others not encouraged. I was discouraged many times in IETF and = I think it is still not able to encourage diversity. It encourages only Nor= th America participants.
=A0
Example:
- IETF ignores participants that revi= ew by leaving editors to decide what to write into the document.
= =A0
AB


On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 1:34 PM, Moriarty, Kathleen <kathleen.moria= rty@emc.com> wrote:
I would say the goal is participation. =A0It should be fine for someone to = watch a video the next day as long as they understand questions are not clo= sed out and they have an opportunity to have their comments and questions b= rought to the group on the mailing list.

Thanks,
Kathleen

-----Original Message-----
From: S Moonesamy [mailto:sm+ietf= @elandsys.com]
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 12:15 AM
To: Spencer Dawkins; Moriarty, Kathleen; adrian@olddog.co.uk
Cc: diversity@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Diversity] Attracting new people and work into the IETF

Hi Spencer,
At 08:36 29-10-2013, Spencer Dawkins wrote:
>Kathleen, et al, would you think the next step would be people
>attending remotely in the middle of the night, or doing a pre-meeting >in the local time zone, or something else I'm not thinking of?

It is a matter of what the IETF wants to achieve. =A0Does it want participa= tion or attendance? =A0Please note that the question is not addressed to yo= u.

My uninformed suggestion would be to favor local time zone. =A0It is not po= ssible to say much about next steps as there aren't any resources avail= able.

Regards,
S. Moonesamy



_______________________________________________
diversity mailing list
diversity@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity

--e89a8ffbaf01275c1c04ea2024c3-- From mcr@sandelman.ca Tue Nov 5 09:31:13 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3D4511E8164 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 09:31:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.407 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.407 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.192, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7lApJxJzhGwD for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 09:31:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3::184]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06B3421E8089 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 09:31:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (desk.marajade.sandelman.ca [209.87.252.247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8398F2027B for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 13:42:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 2C83163B89; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 12:31:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1966063AED for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 12:31:01 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailer: MH-E 8.2; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 23.4.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Subject: [Diversity] do we need corporate IETF educators/chef-de-delgation? X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2013 17:31:13 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On an IETF WG mailing list, there was an email today from a subscriber from= a major router vendor. My guess, a co-op student. Certainly a younger person with little experience. The person asked the list how they could "unfriend" the WG list. (Had they said the normal words for getting off the list, which I don't say in my first paragraph, the administrivia filters might have kicked in) While it sure sets of my "endless september" frustration, I would rather take this as a teaching experience. I *know* that this vendor has people who are specifically trying to educate and train their people on how the IETF works. I am going to claim that I am neither patient nor culturally sensitive enough (yet!) to educate this person with enough compassion. (I would definitely want to dive deep with this person, and explain email vs facebook, and I'd want a whiteboard to do that) While the IETF has prided itself in being about individual and not organizations, and that we don't have "delegations", I still wonder if it wouldn't be useful to have a place where issues/opportunities relating to individuals from larger organizations could be funneled. ps: the unfriend email is also marked confidential, so naturally, I can't share it :-) =2D-=20 Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works=20 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUBUnkrUYqHRg3pndX9AQIcOwP7BFbiCSE6q8U7ygLccgriuEEOZYJ2N3wB zhcWBtqmyD9lE2H8i5EWOWQOjB3TVLR5D5P/uQsc2EJGR7EllQtk0I0TfUwvgjLo EqXsnj7AaNPKM8q5mgZNlSZP8p3k+XD+3GDYGNh4zuFryk9z9Zemy3hCO5mEhf3b LNlCby5pMzY= =2/qr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From sm@resistor.net Tue Nov 5 09:53:19 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3067321E81BE for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 09:53:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.579 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.579 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OmMEZTFnk31z for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 09:53:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A4B911E823E for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 09:51:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from SUBMAN.resistor.net (IDENT:sm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id rA5HpNTM019920; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 09:51:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1383673887; bh=oksfgKaOPU9wZKa5J902hcF2xQvw87Eo86Vk65LkfF8=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=AvshjTWTkEOtmzlD+BAWug1iZow4p4D/wjC0INlxBBMkBJ2i7zxlfzxSphlfr+syN 5PjSZeS3/BIkH4rI2SWQO7F7Ydd16vtZW5Hfsv2SjBgjajs7FU1jTSFPAeZiUlqJBw 8fs3/78iVaI+58yc4PKA5z67HFA3AhK0URBdhkMM= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1383673887; i=@resistor.net; bh=oksfgKaOPU9wZKa5J902hcF2xQvw87Eo86Vk65LkfF8=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=hdI18QIRF4n+AUbxjK8DpBrNUZ29hZHBewn2vsFVBBAHMO99BQx/JiJbX3H3kSljL 6huQZtukjsZGQ0NZMZRkd4nwy7SogOsUPnhggUgr3cDKB2YXa586T4s6B2tmkFinTK UPVgbKUYnkWG/LCNDUDsOQNJIVbo7zYXkLLJJ+YA= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20131105093950.0c7c8140@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2013 09:50:29 -0800 To: Michael Richardson From: SM In-Reply-To: <24264.1383672661@sandelman.ca> References: <24264.1383672661@sandelman.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] do we need corporate IETF educators/chef-de-delgation? X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2013 17:53:19 -0000 Hi Michael, At 09:31 05-11-2013, Michael Richardson wrote: >On an IETF WG mailing list, there was an email today from a subscriber from a >major router vendor. My guess, a co-op student. Certainly a younger >person with little experience. The person asked the list how they could >"unfriend" the WG list. (Had they said the normal words for getting off the >list, which I don't say in my first paragraph, the administrivia filters >might have kicked in) > >While it sure sets of my "endless september" frustration, I would rather >take this as a teaching experience. I *know* that this vendor has people >who are specifically trying to educate and train their people on how the >IETF works. I am going to claim that I am neither patient nor culturally >sensitive enough (yet!) to educate this person with enough compassion. >(I would definitely want to dive deep with this person, and explain email vs >facebook, and I'd want a whiteboard to do that) The person wanted to leave the mailing list. I would get that done instead of turning it into an educational exercise. The latter tends to be misconstrued. >While the IETF has prided itself in being about individual and not >organizations, and that we don't have "delegations", I still wonder if it >wouldn't be useful to have a place where issues/opportunities relating to >individuals from larger organizations could be funneled. I am not sure what the above is asking for. Is it about providing educational material or tutorials for large organizations? Regards, -sm From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com Tue Nov 5 11:21:55 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A911021E8096 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 11:21:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.692 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.692 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.759, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, SARE_HTML_USL_OBFU=1.666] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ILAN5ZjLdaww for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 11:21:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x22d.google.com (mail-pa0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22d]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D60FD11E8210 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 11:20:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f45.google.com with SMTP id kp14so9348052pab.18 for ; Tue, 05 Nov 2013 11:20:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=gwAT3MtrcyJ1q6m+JKmrAlOX+bZUuAYajy1cGLJ1xuM=; b=LeNQiAlMCmnMj2a3yn+cniSdnUz3BE10hN6BEYNRwOzZTVE8vviBFcguGSdsvqs9Df gn7ionaJp2cLbvqAXoCaaJ956DBIi2z2VXew62G7M/YKxMyW+VXAx2WjjaTG4kboDhSj GwphUVepn9siEHMsf4b/sRfSpmkIhNecEpnD/xmU2eYQ4/v55MU6Lb78le4CcrqQCPxq y5yN+0d8hu0XNce40+zVQRrIUh7elyFzrOf2Hk3oH+Eabaw58TV7Jm40BYdylkm8oNuk 7rYDxJ0XPdUq41WR7fpL9QZW77IBQHYsQ2uE4OJ3c5x/Zd2p51INB+9PFy6B61FODohV eK4g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.254.132 with SMTP id ai4mr24529302pbd.51.1383679257196; Tue, 05 Nov 2013 11:20:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.69.8.5 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 11:20:57 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20131105093950.0c7c8140@resistor.net> References: <24264.1383672661@sandelman.ca> <6.2.5.6.2.20131105093950.0c7c8140@resistor.net> Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 19:20:57 +0000 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: SM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b2e0a119bbf3a04ea72ee61 Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Diversity] do we need corporate IETF educators/chef-de-delgation? X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2013 19:21:56 -0000 --047d7b2e0a119bbf3a04ea72ee61 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 We need educator to senior participants. The education is not about managing because mostly done well. The education to seniors will be to make IETF more open more understood more simple and more diverse. If a message came saying unfriend then it may mean that IETF was not reacting as friends do, which is a big problem. AB On Tuesday, November 5, 2013, SM wrote: > Hi Michael, > At 09:31 05-11-2013, Michael Richardson wrote: > >> On an IETF WG mailing list, there was an email today from a subscriber >> from a >> major router vendor. My guess, a co-op student. Certainly a younger >> person with little experience. The person asked the list how they could >> "unfriend" the WG list. (Had they said the normal words for getting off >> the >> list, which I don't say in my first paragraph, the administrivia filters >> might have kicked in) >> >> While it sure sets of my "endless september" frustration, I would rather >> take this as a teaching experience. I *know* that this vendor has people >> who are specifically trying to educate and train their people on how the >> IETF works. I am going to claim that I am neither patient nor culturally >> sensitive enough (yet!) to educate this person with enough compassion. >> (I would definitely want to dive deep with this person, and explain email >> vs >> facebook, and I'd want a whiteboard to do that) >> > > The person wanted to leave the mailing list. I would get that done > instead of turning it into an educational exercise. The latter tends to be > misconstrued. > > While the IETF has prided itself in being about individual and not >> organizations, and that we don't have "delegations", I still wonder if it >> wouldn't be useful to have a place where issues/opportunities relating to >> individuals from larger organizations could be funneled. >> > > I am not sure what the above is asking for. Is it about providing > educational material or tutorials for large organizations? > > Regards, > -sm > _______________________________________________ > diversity mailing list > diversity@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity > --047d7b2e0a119bbf3a04ea72ee61 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We need educator to senior participants. The education is not about managin= g because mostly=A0done well. The education to seniors will be to make IETF= more open more understood more simple and more diverse.

If a message came saying unfriend then it may mean that IETF was not reacti= ng as friends do, which is a big problem.=A0

AB
<= br>On Tuesday, November 5, 2013, SM wrote:
Hi Michael,
At 09:31 05-11-2013, Michael Richardson wrote:
On an IETF WG mailing list, there was an email today from a subscriber from= a
major router vendor. =A0 =A0My guess, a co-op student. =A0Certainly a young= er
person with little experience. =A0The person asked the list how they could<= br> "unfriend" the WG list. =A0(Had they said the normal words for ge= tting off the
list, which I don't say in my first paragraph, the administrivia filter= s
might have kicked in)

While it sure sets of my "endless september" frustration, =A0I wo= uld rather
take this as a teaching experience. =A0 I *know* that this vendor has peopl= e
who are specifically trying to educate and train their people on how the IETF works. =A0I am going to claim that I am neither patient nor culturally=
sensitive enough (yet!) to educate this person with enough compassion.
(I would definitely want to dive deep with this person, and explain email v= s
facebook, and I'd want a whiteboard to do that)

The person wanted to leave the mailing list. =A0I would get that done inste= ad of turning it into an educational exercise. =A0The latter tends to be mi= sconstrued.

While the IETF has prided itself in being about individual and not
organizations, and that we don't have "delegations", I still = wonder if it
wouldn't be useful to have a place where issues/opportunities relating = to
individuals from larger organizations could be funneled.

I am not sure what the above is asking for. =A0Is it about providing educat= ional material or tutorials for large organizations?

Regards,
-sm
_______________________________________________
diversity mailing list
diversity@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity
--047d7b2e0a119bbf3a04ea72ee61-- From suresh.krishnan@ericsson.com Tue Nov 5 11:36:34 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4545721E808A for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 11:36:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.464 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.464 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.135, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uleyRbgiNvXQ for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 11:36:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from usevmg20.ericsson.net (usevmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD88921E8085 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 11:36:22 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c618062d-b7fd88e00000439f-81-527948b56332 Received: from EUSAAHC004.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.84]) by usevmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id C6.86.17311.5B849725; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 20:36:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from [164.48.125.56] (147.117.188.134) by smtps-am.internal.ericsson.com (147.117.188.84) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.328.9; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 14:36:21 -0500 Message-ID: <52794806.8090900@ericsson.com> Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 14:33:26 -0500 From: Suresh Krishnan User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Richardson , References: <24264.1383672661@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <24264.1383672661@sandelman.ca> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [147.117.188.134] X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprALMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPiO42j8ogg76d3BbXbq9gseg51M/u wOSxZMlPJo+WOXuYA5iiuGxSUnMyy1KL9O0SuDImL3EueMlTcfZXI1MD4wKuLkZODgkBE4kX /+YyQthiEhfurWfrYuTiEBI4wijR0XSdCcLZxiixac0TJpAqXgFtiWV/OllAbBYBFYmJz9aB 2WxAkzbs/AxWIyoQIrFw1XF2iHpBiZMzn4DViAi4SPR/2gZmCws4S3S/PQZWIwQ088W8m2A2 p4COxNmHV4DmcABdJC7R0xgEEmYW0JOYcrWFEcKWl9j+dg4zRKumxNY131khHlCW+PduBcsE RqFZSDbPQtI+C0n7AkbmVYwcpcWpZbnpRgabGIGhekyCTXcH456XlocYpTlYlMR5v7x1DhIS SE8sSc1OTS1ILYovKs1JLT7EyMTBKdXAuPUWy7pzs1oW+2/gXqp1nWOV4OTS9f/spNZE50jO OSz/nOOStMGEL4yfzotukavSSpVwDFiRmqQreOGuL6vPvvtCbyLLkj4GtZoaP9+jPC9y/v5N /1cxXHITOW6Vc0Hq4bsNCwrOz+fbXlJ+4eSn5D8hAsacjQffZzDs7bEP8LzzZ8vks8Fcvkos xRmJhlrMRcWJAJl8uVIjAgAA Subject: Re: [Diversity] do we need corporate IETF educators/chef-de-delgation? X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2013 19:36:35 -0000 On 11/05/2013 12:31 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: > > On an IETF WG mailing list, there was an email today from a subscriber from a > major router vendor. My guess, a co-op student. Certainly a younger > person with little experience. The person asked the list how they could > "unfriend" the WG list. (Had they said the normal words for getting off the > list, which I don't say in my first paragraph, the administrivia filters > might have kicked in) > > While it sure sets of my "endless september" frustration, I would rather > take this as a teaching experience. I *know* that this vendor has people > who are specifically trying to educate and train their people on how the > IETF works. I am going to claim that I am neither patient nor culturally > sensitive enough (yet!) to educate this person with enough compassion. > (I would definitely want to dive deep with this person, and explain email vs > facebook, and I'd want a whiteboard to do that) > > While the IETF has prided itself in being about individual and not > organizations, and that we don't have "delegations", I still wonder if it > wouldn't be useful to have a place where issues/opportunities relating to > individuals from larger organizations could be funneled. > > ps: the unfriend email is also marked confidential, so naturally, I can't > share it :-) I do not have much sympathy for confidentiality notices in mails sent to public mailing lists. For those interested, this is probably the mail that Michael is talking about. http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ipsec/current/msg08752.html Thanks Suresh From mcr@sandelman.ca Tue Nov 5 11:36:40 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D84411E8119 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 11:36:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.435 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.435 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.164, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vSbM3zDvMSfH for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 11:36:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3::184]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91BD711E8159 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 11:36:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (desk.marajade.sandelman.ca [209.87.252.247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD02220281; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 15:47:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id F25B063B88; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 14:36:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1E4E63AED; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 14:36:16 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: SM In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20131105093950.0c7c8140@resistor.net> References: <24264.1383672661@sandelman.ca> <6.2.5.6.2.20131105093950.0c7c8140@resistor.net> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.2; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 23.4.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] do we need corporate IETF educators/chef-de-delgation? X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2013 19:36:40 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable SM wrote: >> On an IETF WG mailing list, there was an email today from a subscrib= er from a >> major router vendor. My guess, a co-op student. Certainly a youn= ger >> person with little experience. The person asked the list how they c= ould >> "unfriend" the WG list. (Had they said the normal words for getting= off the >> list, which I don't say in my first paragraph, the administrivia fil= ters >> might have kicked in) >>=20 >> While it sure sets of my "endless september" frustration, I would r= ather >> take this as a teaching experience. I *know* that this vendor has = people >> who are specifically trying to educate and train their people on how= the >> IETF works. I am going to claim that I am neither patient nor cultu= rally >> sensitive enough (yet!) to educate this person with enough compassio= n. >> (I would definitely want to dive deep with this person, and explain = email vs >> facebook, and I'd want a whiteboard to do that) > The person wanted to leave the mailing list. I would get that done i= nstead > of turning it into an educational exercise. The latter tends to be > misconstrued. If this were my grandmother, I would simply do this. The person figured out how to find the list, how to subscribe, how to reply to the confirm email, and may well be a developer working in the bowels of this company. Isn't this a person that we want to identify and bring into the fold? >> While the IETF has prided itself in being about individual and not >> organizations, and that we don't have "delegations", I still wonder = if it >> wouldn't be useful to have a place where issues/opportunities relati= ng to >> individuals from larger organizations could be funneled. > I am not sure what the above is asking for. Is it about providing > educational material or tutorials for large organizations? No, it's about be able go to www.ietf.org/enterprise-delegation-contacts an= d=20 finding the name of the person in the CTO office of Big-Router-Company, and say, "Hey, maybe this person needs your internal IETF training session" =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUBUnlIroqHRg3pndX9AQKZ0wP/VsDdoGmewCX3esKMrlHWy3kCfXvu95a+ 5otW0fzXJumvNWrOO4N19qLM877zJUAKH6SWuia3J1aicYRrqYMh8/OJBkm5ednY Z5zphZ12EHUShfTkZ7MKZGc1OssLuI+Z1MuGu9A0AnOjf8LY6WW0vCJndXjx3hTl mcpkttjQPnM= =80pB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From eburger@standardstrack.com Tue Nov 5 12:43:12 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB15521E80E6 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 12:43:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.001, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LBEM58tw2XmZ for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 12:43:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from biz104.inmotionhosting.com (biz104.inmotionhosting.com [74.124.215.15]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ADE321E8093 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 12:43:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from ip68-100-74-194.dc.dc.cox.net ([68.100.74.194]:52537 helo=[192.168.15.194]) by biz104.inmotionhosting.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VdnSr-00049J-88 for diversity@ietf.org; Tue, 05 Nov 2013 12:43:06 -0800 From: Eric Burger Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_94423084-D818-4E36-BB0A-158EEE0AC8BF"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Message-Id: <2D7EA508-ECB5-4BD5-BB96-D1563421368F@standardstrack.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.0 \(1816\)) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 15:43:00 -0500 References: <24264.1383672661@sandelman.ca> <6.2.5.6.2.20131105093950.0c7c8140@resistor.net> <17812.1383680176@sandelman.ca> To: diversity@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <17812.1383680176@sandelman.ca> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1816) X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - biz104.inmotionhosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - standardstrack.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: biz104.inmotionhosting.com: authenticated_id: eburger+standardstrack.com/only user confirmed/virtual account not confirmed X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Subject: Re: [Diversity] do we need corporate IETF educators/chef-de-delgation? X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2013 20:43:12 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_94423084-D818-4E36-BB0A-158EEE0AC8BF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Let=92s setup a wiki where *individuals* at companies can put themselves = down as =93go to=94 people. Not strictly as =93go to for Huawei=94 [to = give a small example], but just =93go to.=94 Over time, people will = learn to go to the =93go to=94 wiki to find mentors. Better yet, you = might even find someone from your own company. A =91chef-de-delegation=92 would be a 1,000% internal-only, = not-to-be-managed-by-the-IETF thing. Maybe something we could suggest, = but not something to institutionalize. On Nov 5, 2013, at 2:36 PM, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 > SM wrote: >>> On an IETF WG mailing list, there was an email today from a = subscriber from a >>> major router vendor. My guess, a co-op student. Certainly a = younger >>> person with little experience. The person asked the list how they = could >>> "unfriend" the WG list. (Had they said the normal words for getting = off the >>> list, which I don't say in my first paragraph, the administrivia = filters >>> might have kicked in) >>>=20 >>> While it sure sets of my "endless september" frustration, I would = rather >>> take this as a teaching experience. I *know* that this vendor has = people >>> who are specifically trying to educate and train their people on how = the >>> IETF works. I am going to claim that I am neither patient nor = culturally >>> sensitive enough (yet!) to educate this person with enough = compassion. >>> (I would definitely want to dive deep with this person, and explain = email vs >>> facebook, and I'd want a whiteboard to do that) >=20 >> The person wanted to leave the mailing list. I would get that done = instead >> of turning it into an educational exercise. The latter tends to be >> misconstrued. >=20 > If this were my grandmother, I would simply do this. > The person figured out how to find the list, how to subscribe, how to = reply > to the confirm email, and may well be a developer working in the = bowels of > this company. >=20 > Isn't this a person that we want to identify and bring into the fold? >=20 >>> While the IETF has prided itself in being about individual and not >>> organizations, and that we don't have "delegations", I still wonder = if it >>> wouldn't be useful to have a place where issues/opportunities = relating to >>> individuals from larger organizations could be funneled. >=20 >> I am not sure what the above is asking for. Is it about providing >> educational material or tutorials for large organizations? >=20 > No, it's about be able go to = www.ietf.org/enterprise-delegation-contacts and=20 > finding the name of the person in the CTO office of = Big-Router-Company, and > say, "Hey, maybe this person needs your internal IETF training = session" >=20 > --=20 > ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh = networks [=20 > ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network = architect [=20 > ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on = rails [=20 > =09 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > diversity mailing list > diversity@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity --Apple-Mail=_94423084-D818-4E36-BB0A-158EEE0AC8BF Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJSeVhUAAoJEORoZaSQsc1IR80P/A5B1UfmW6XTEO4B7Uvh+bs6 vqZWuwwPTEyqdl1w2CHINJkyUShCCM3v6Ohbv60BkT3pJSdH6d9mdlSW+kMMI+p3 G7M1D7s8ILChX/Pxc9RKApPpGkR0XclE7DmoFLhJ0daDxesRgh1Ioc32Bqokje47 b5COaF8l5LXKvTBzSYqOrRmFUmD32c0lTimu8nCn/2+ZAYvEqoiWJ5uHCqqLsSmF dsY+RbGsJJeBkgJvv7aYK1epv9EFmx87nMAFR4FnrX4FSx+dWay/VlMmDzvOqJvH z4kIF/oyr8v4XbDyFgGENJhRewfPrtF5w0mQRfCM0U+8vXYWBObkFw15uRUEtirw vyaEqqUgnG0k3oO9z+zJKf9FczGIlS6SURrLYyLeJtv15gzybbIjog67IXGvTT3W iEeJHLRl6MlWKyZF1KHgHARvgKwJw6+wJ+BiH4JusXQMm7ExQi8SHelSuPIpySqN GZ3ImNMa+jzsfUVJchJa5lqdbVQHx9gnRt+9mtxwrduuQFIcmdwcR7QHUrmtPrB0 pUsIrSS2HgLoyFkfwQEUj7Mhfg6t0xQdfazjoo/neNm1r8+U/+RtDaEUAP4vjnaR VcrQqwr98W32gcrSG2nxFyfHOr7EBV2ifMe99HECqnvesho471T/XDqwxH2S1FOL 6NZa1Lf8ITnyhoN9+94w =0zeC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_94423084-D818-4E36-BB0A-158EEE0AC8BF-- From sm@resistor.net Tue Nov 5 13:56:12 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6317221F9F45 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 13:56:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.58 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.58 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XoM56RqMH0+g for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 13:56:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B15511E80E3 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 13:55:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from SUBMAN.resistor.net (IDENT:sm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id rA5LtsiI008721; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 13:55:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1383688559; bh=bKDmF1Y8d4ZyQ4XYkQitaXnsm+iFNqPt9Jp0E0j1N+U=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=PPu5ixHhv5h4IZcFNWQx7DHHX/pM2arQcKq2HVowNYoXz47xFPD/VGdl5u7P3aREM tWQTXawTjPor/2W1w/m1uyW6wv1C3pl/JugG5vo3IFRO04njaPCO4IO0wdpiKv9rEB MlJagpOvtlAqOd+1CSPsH/j65V5UD5GOELykJbkM= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1383688559; i=@resistor.net; bh=bKDmF1Y8d4ZyQ4XYkQitaXnsm+iFNqPt9Jp0E0j1N+U=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=Mu8YT3v4iDq+m50hFjGvmH5dWaFA+Se707hMrYBRVQcICKLtxjXtTfWQlI4pAk5y5 3x3puoMgGEHzCxg9yPk0y0has0LlQUj0cbALAeFORU+WfdtRv+Ngk+rTqcM5AOy/iS n4bnvRP06q8NyYQMNnkoNLfjfuwl92uezFiHfkS8= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20131105130351.0e50e038@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2013 13:40:02 -0800 To: Michael Richardson From: SM In-Reply-To: <17812.1383680176@sandelman.ca> References: <24264.1383672661@sandelman.ca> <6.2.5.6.2.20131105093950.0c7c8140@resistor.net> <17812.1383680176@sandelman.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] do we need corporate IETF educators/chef-de-delgation? X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2013 21:56:12 -0000 Hi Michael, At 11:36 05-11-2013, Michael Richardson wrote: >If this were my grandmother, I would simply do this. >The person figured out how to find the list, how to subscribe, how to reply >to the confirm email, and may well be a developer working in the bowels of >this company. Yes. People still have problems unsubscribing from mailing lists. >Isn't this a person that we want to identify and bring into the fold? In this case the person could be pointed to additional information so that he or she can decide whether to join the fold. You identified the person. Someone (not you) would have to follow-up on that. >No, it's about be able go to www.ietf.org/enterprise-delegation-contacts and >finding the name of the person in the CTO office of Big-Router-Company, and >say, "Hey, maybe this person needs your internal IETF training session" Eric Burger suggested having a Wiki with the information. The IAOC could ask about that as it likely knows the contact persons for those big companies. A Wiki can be set up if there is interest to publish the information. Regards, -sm From mcr@sandelman.ca Tue Nov 5 17:23:06 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4244521E80F9 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 17:23:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.471 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.471 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.128, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id clL4SbEWHfAJ for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 17:23:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3::184]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17FD221E80E2 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 17:23:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (desk.marajade.sandelman.ca [209.87.252.247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C059C2028B; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 21:34:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 20CD663B88; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 20:22:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C8D263AED; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 20:22:57 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Eric Burger In-Reply-To: <2D7EA508-ECB5-4BD5-BB96-D1563421368F@standardstrack.com> References: <24264.1383672661@sandelman.ca> <6.2.5.6.2.20131105093950.0c7c8140@resistor.net> <17812.1383680176@sandelman.ca> <2D7EA508-ECB5-4BD5-BB96-D1563421368F@standardstrack.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.2; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 23.4.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] do we need corporate IETF educators/chef-de-delgation? X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2013 01:23:06 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eric Burger wrote: > Let=E2=80=99s setup a wiki where *individuals* at companies can put t= hemselves > down as =E2=80=9Cgo to=E2=80=9D people. Not strictly as =E2=80=9Cgo t= o for Huawei=E2=80=9D [to give a > small example], but just =E2=80=9Cgo to.=E2=80=9D Over time, people w= ill learn to go to > the =E2=80=9Cgo to=E2=80=9D wiki to find mentors. Better yet, you mig= ht even find > someone from your own company.=20 I'm all for this, and this is really what I want. > A =E2=80=98chef-de-delegation=E2=80=99 would be a 1,000% internal-onl= y, > not-to-be-managed-by-the-IETF thing. Maybe something we could suggest, > but not something to institutionalize.=20 Exactly... but it might be better understood by the corporation. =2D-=20 Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works=20 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUBUnmZ7oqHRg3pndX9AQI3tgQAg6ZnC+y7W7v91fJDZNJuWNkGLE/TBvXi SxQoMTAmeoHuHUYLZta5CuC3PxUbFXqRiy5uPV4eiGRAUD0oP5J5adGnnHXjgNNf eWQJmM87IceUH9jkp39KSW6I++8tIwQXfv1FrKVo4F0p/M6ctlKBkZEXaOaS0Bqx BasgMqEdhk0= =kdcB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From leaf.yeh.sdo@gmail.com Sun Nov 10 05:42:36 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0264811E81A4 for ; Sun, 10 Nov 2013 05:42:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.431 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.431 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTTP_ESCAPED_HOST=0.134, SARE_RECV_IP_219128=1.666, URI_HEX=0.368] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lQ3JFS2IE6cO for ; Sun, 10 Nov 2013 05:42:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x234.google.com (mail-pa0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::234]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD75D11E81A7 for ; Sun, 10 Nov 2013 05:42:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f52.google.com with SMTP id bj1so4192259pad.25 for ; Sun, 10 Nov 2013 05:42:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=Lem0lbPH1DyYuwof5j7S/1DUPW69D2wjqdma4KoRT3o=; b=lSs85niufrvUoE/EP/xLOwhT09y1Hllxax2cPCP1jUYsbMQ7IWAplTCMy7Lay74XGl uuc/nF1ainxsgmTSgBNr6JuUyREZExp5PGfZRE59HQmBs7KB91I+N1E9ko+4L61XG61k Qq7ILrYOoP/BMWDr7C4Qr3j+Dr7j1RgyHyxsojsYDgSm9nWBWfQnnjWWlAme87QU70xS vd+GTsCQriInywZ7W+s1c+/BRzWm+ZjKQX4CgDLhyyHaaaeonEX6Fe1s/cYPuGOvZF9Q noJ+a2t53vRhRBaqfcuFBEk1Z6DcJQ5EIRK7A8BriNKkYQE5ZZI98Qob6lWYIKYZCmNY 7zgA== X-Received: by 10.68.137.138 with SMTP id qi10mr24767640pbb.113.1384090954515; Sun, 10 Nov 2013 05:42:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from PC ([219.133.227.81]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id qw8sm24498137pbb.27.2013.11.10.05.42.29 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 10 Nov 2013 05:42:33 -0800 (PST) From: "Leaf Yeh" To: References: <41E5A356-9224-44A7-8F57-472C513DA0C1@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <41E5A356-9224-44A7-8F57-472C513DA0C1@ietf.org> Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 21:41:17 +0800 Message-ID: <527f8d49.488b440a.05c1.ffffd696@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac7aamZrspCZzEaaSlyBNOgq7VWPMQDpsI8A Content-Language: zh-cn Subject: Re: [Diversity] #IETF88 on Twitter X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 13:42:36 -0000 FYI, Twitter is blocked in China Mainland. But there is a popular twitter-like application, weibo (www.weibo.com ) of SINA (http://finance.yahoo.com/q;_ylt=ArXbCSCZoq8oURT_EUyYKdb4k_ME?s=SINA&uhb=uhb 2&type=2button&fr=uh3_finance_web_gs ). We might need an account of weibo for Chinese IETFer, like what United Nation (http://e.weibo.com/un?ref=http%3A%2F%2Fe.weibo.com%2Fungou%3Fref%3Dhttp%253 A%252F%252Fwww.weibo.com%252Fu%252F1802007947%252Fhome%253Fwvr%253D5 ) or USA embassy (http://e.weibo.com/usembassy?ref=http%3A%2F%2Fs.weibo.com%2Fweibo%2F%2525E7 %2525BE%25258E%2525E5%25259B%2525BD%2525E5%2525A4%2525A7%2525E4%2525BD%2525B F%2525E9%2525A6%252586%26b%3D1 ) does at weibo of Sina. Best Regards, Leaf -----Original Message----- From: ietf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of IETF Chair Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 5:02 AM To: ietf-announce@ietf.org Cc: 88all@ietf.org; IETF Discussion Subject: #IETF88 on Twitter If you are following the meeting remotely or otherwise, Twitter is an additional information channel. We've been using the #IETF88 hashtag on Twitter. Megan has promised to live-tweet during tomorrow's plenary (thanks!). Jari Arkko IETF Chair From sm@resistor.net Sun Nov 10 22:09:43 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A4D211E8116 for ; Sun, 10 Nov 2013 22:09:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.574 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.574 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZLj6eJNRw1x2 for ; Sun, 10 Nov 2013 22:09:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1955211E80EE for ; Sun, 10 Nov 2013 22:09:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from SUBMAN.resistor.net (IDENT:sm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id rAB69R4C011243; Sun, 10 Nov 2013 22:09:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1384150172; bh=F/ZQnCuenI7JID7Tttzg3yVwDRus+1pn1Ff/2I2sR3s=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=jeX75DPdb9VGWzIJIbr9hV6CAD9RX/SDLVRNortk7R/RHtn9KdDBjkEN3biUBGvmg kP7uLgfIXtLCvTchYGxLG33sQViGmAb8q0JdXBkx8x9fB+I46gfzOTY5mMrh1HY4eZ w6cpPNYzrya4nAajkzgTIzL7Id6aXZJ2n7wjUzGU= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1384150172; i=@resistor.net; bh=F/ZQnCuenI7JID7Tttzg3yVwDRus+1pn1Ff/2I2sR3s=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=JkrQe5UPd/oapiJuXk1tKAH9dhYgHsPlpqwnTV7uLiRagOB1AYLFklPnq0l8XD9gE NlRsCTFqAtZgCaSwD6Qb/XEwUx9rV1DGD1TWlnYMEpLnQQu8x61kQNtxKNrxWlE3Gl dCeBSP1ixdcVqix6bYrHOAZvU3SqxIZ0m49IMSdI= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20131110205253.0c63c988@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 22:07:45 -0800 To: Melinda Shore From: SM In-Reply-To: <527FFBF4.4050308@gmail.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20131108141553.0b6a0df8@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20131109094851.0c663970@resistor.net> <290E20B455C66743BE178C5C84F1240847E3E25DA8@EXMB01CMS.surrey.ac.uk> <527F6064.5020101@bwijnen.net> <527FB928.7000204@gmail.com> <6824449A-CC4F-4308-9A62-9305DD10EFF6@nominum.com> <527FDB95.7040403@gmail.com> <527FE1EA.9060301@gmail.com> <527FEF90.1080207@dcrocker.net> <527FFBF4.4050308@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: [Diversity] Gender inequality X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 06:09:43 -0000 Hi Melinda, [moved the thread to diversity@ as there hasn't been much discussion about the topic] At 13:34 10-11-2013, Melinda Shore wrote: >There are some serious tradeoffs here and I'm not sure where >I'd ultimately come down on this question. I'm leery of >things that might be contested on popularity or political >grounds (I think we've all noticed orchestrated statements >of support for this or that piece of work, right?), although Yes. >I tend to think those are so transparent that they'd be >noticed and noted. The other thing is a lot sketchier and >I don't know if it's real or not, but it's consistent with >broader social patterns. I was talking with someone about >finding someone for a particular role and I suggested a >woman, and the guy said "Oh no, she's toxic." So I suggested >another woman, and he said "She's toxic, too." I dropped it >and I shouldn't have so I didn't know what was really going on >there (besides not thinking that either of these people are >"toxic," myself), but I think we need to be wary that opening >up the process for input from all participants will tend to >mean sorting through more of those sorts of questions. On >the other hand I think some really talented people are >being overlooked and this is a way to give them a boost. The above comment about suggesting a woman could also be applicable for a man. Are women not being chosen merely because they are women? I don't know. I took a quick look at the global list of countries with the least gender inequality. The number is the position in the list and the country selection is subjective: 2. Finland 3. Norway 4. Sweden 6. Ireland 8. Denmark 11. Belgium 13. Netherlands 14. Germany 18. United Kingdom 19. Austria 20. Canada There are likely talented women from these countries. Would those women be overlooked? It's likely. Somebody would have to volunteer to find the persons who are overlooked and get them interested. Regards, -sm From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com Sun Nov 10 22:17:21 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB88921E8097 for ; Sun, 10 Nov 2013 22:17:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.689 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.689 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.756, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, SARE_HTML_USL_OBFU=1.666] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7+z06T66tm6Y for ; Sun, 10 Nov 2013 22:17:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pb0-x231.google.com (mail-pb0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::231]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68EB021E80C7 for ; Sun, 10 Nov 2013 22:17:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pb0-f49.google.com with SMTP id um1so2764145pbc.8 for ; Sun, 10 Nov 2013 22:17:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=pYbIR/aPTW/TGNa+172Fjl7j0qBsfo/NgWT16rwUirI=; b=wav7S89n+xgv6IW7A5Rk3XFcN1GU/Ztezyxfzz4M0PKty0Xh/fIiR0BiadKOd84cvl kCg0i1dY7usn3SlAxCYxX+zNxpjk+tLwz8WKkM0dZORXIdft9/ww4Kv29Xi2agBDpF99 qEqOOrhkxTJrxozpLFsi4YhK7h3uVCD4LTtKkX3I3ZnsLyTbM8dcv6Hk8aODIujzuIbr Es9Ha2JsNeO3gfKxTkeJx8k8qZRnN5nklq/BD7+VS6z/iq+vQWDfElngON7hwmKSrLEl 8d4hk2kAF6esyYmzIGHUow+WMr8VlRlCwzeRWo1knGfgW60uSU3lCAKy1HCRq8kG/IkM 3pCw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.4.232 with SMTP id n8mr28863641pbn.9.1384150636458; Sun, 10 Nov 2013 22:17:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.69.8.5 with HTTP; Sun, 10 Nov 2013 22:17:16 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20131110205253.0c63c988@resistor.net> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20131108141553.0b6a0df8@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20131109094851.0c663970@resistor.net> <290E20B455C66743BE178C5C84F1240847E3E25DA8@EXMB01CMS.surrey.ac.uk> <527F6064.5020101@bwijnen.net> <527FB928.7000204@gmail.com> <6824449A-CC4F-4308-9A62-9305DD10EFF6@nominum.com> <527FDB95.7040403@gmail.com> <527FE1EA.9060301@gmail.com> <527FEF90.1080207@dcrocker.net> <527FFBF4.4050308@gmail.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20131110205253.0c63c988@resistor.net> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 07:17:16 +0100 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: SM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec5215b0700792004eae0af97 Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" , Melinda Shore Subject: Re: [Diversity] Gender inequality X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 06:17:22 -0000 --bcaec5215b0700792004eae0af97 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I am a remote participant but while discussing with another woman participant, I understood that there are issues related to gender in IETF but not discussed openly. Men need to consider those issue not just ignore it, and see how can we solve them together, now, this gender issue is needing a really design team with private discussions, then it can report final solution. The regional issues must be open discussion not private through DT . AB On Monday, November 11, 2013, SM wrote: > Hi Melinda, > > [moved the thread to diversity@ as there hasn't been much discussion > about the topic] > > At 13:34 10-11-2013, Melinda Shore wrote: > >> There are some serious tradeoffs here and I'm not sure where >> I'd ultimately come down on this question. I'm leery of >> things that might be contested on popularity or political >> grounds (I think we've all noticed orchestrated statements >> of support for this or that piece of work, right?), although >> > > Yes. > > I tend to think those are so transparent that they'd be >> noticed and noted. The other thing is a lot sketchier and >> I don't know if it's real or not, but it's consistent with >> broader social patterns. I was talking with someone about >> finding someone for a particular role and I suggested a >> woman, and the guy said "Oh no, she's toxic." So I suggested >> another woman, and he said "She's toxic, too." I dropped it >> and I shouldn't have so I didn't know what was really going on >> there (besides not thinking that either of these people are >> "toxic," myself), but I think we need to be wary that opening >> up the process for input from all participants will tend to >> mean sorting through more of those sorts of questions. On >> the other hand I think some really talented people are >> being overlooked and this is a way to give them a boost. >> > > The above comment about suggesting a woman could also be applicable for a > man. Are women not being chosen merely because they are women? I don't > know. I took a quick look at the global list of countries with the least > gender inequality. The number is the position in the list and the country > selection is subjective: > > 2. Finland > 3. Norway > 4. Sweden > 6. Ireland > 8. Denmark > 11. Belgium > 13. Netherlands > 14. Germany > 18. United Kingdom > 19. Austria > 20. Canada > > There are likely talented women from these countries. Would those women > be overlooked? It's likely. Somebody would have to volunteer to find the > persons who are overlooked and get them interested. > > Regards, > -sm > _______________________________________________ > diversity mailing list > diversity@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity > --bcaec5215b0700792004eae0af97 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am a remote participant but while discussing with another woman participa= nt, I understood that there are issues related to gender in IETF but not di= scussed openly. Men need to consider those issue not just ignore it, and se= e how can we solve them together, now, this gender issue is needing a reall= y design team with private discussions, then it can report final solution. = The regional issues must be open discussion not private through DT .

AB

On Monday, November 11, 2013, SM wrote:
Hi Melinda,

[moved the thread to diversity@ as there hasn't been much discussion ab= out the topic]

At 13:34 10-11-2013, Melinda Shore wrote:
There are some serious tradeoffs here and I'm not sure where
I'd ultimately come down on this question. =A0I'm leery of
things that might be contested on popularity or political
grounds (I think we've all noticed orchestrated statements
of support for this or that piece of work, right?), although

Yes.

I tend to think those are so transparent that they'd be
noticed and noted. =A0The other thing is a lot sketchier and
I don't know if it's real or not, but it's consistent with
broader social patterns. =A0I was talking with someone about
finding someone for a particular role and I suggested a
woman, and the guy said "Oh no, she's toxic." =A0So I suggest= ed
another woman, and he said "She's toxic, too." =A0I dropped i= t
and I shouldn't have so I didn't know what was really going on
there (besides not thinking that either of these people are
"toxic," myself), but I think we need to be wary that opening
up the process for input from all participants will tend to
mean sorting through more of those sorts of questions. =A0On
the other hand I think some really talented people are
being overlooked and this is a way to give them a boost.

The above comment about suggesting a woman could also be applicable for a m= an. =A0Are women not being chosen merely because they are women? =A0I don&#= 39;t know. =A0I took a quick look at the global list of countries with the = least gender inequality. =A0The number is the position in the list and the = country selection is subjective:

=A0 2. Finland
=A0 3. Norway
=A0 4. Sweden
=A0 6. Ireland
=A0 8. Denmark
=A011. Belgium
=A013. Netherlands
=A014. Germany
=A018. United Kingdom
=A019. Austria
=A020. Canada

There are likely talented women from these countries. =A0Would those women = be overlooked? =A0It's likely. =A0Somebody would have to volunteer to f= ind the persons who are overlooked and get them interested.

Regards,
-sm
_______________________________________________
diversity mailing list
diversity@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity
--bcaec5215b0700792004eae0af97-- From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com Sun Nov 10 22:38:30 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5366811E8116 for ; Sun, 10 Nov 2013 22:38:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.508 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.508 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.091, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jobbZZCXb4AU for ; Sun, 10 Nov 2013 22:38:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pd0-x236.google.com (mail-pd0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::236]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2D8011E80ED for ; Sun, 10 Nov 2013 22:38:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pd0-f182.google.com with SMTP id y13so1942066pdi.27 for ; Sun, 10 Nov 2013 22:38:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=14dJSzBVgfQ+m9VyUN+z8q6BBKalLJtanoLVHv/AhsM=; b=aBTcUZAxOmi/FX40MQ0QT4SjDUqYE4RwhRoEjSZNBppvh7V6Oo/cUnRwiGfZLOyAWG ngEuW6pgDxsVJxfbCubt5r4zZmBfNRy1R9WGUeUfXNjRQ5+qjVDZ8Li+DKUwO0Qucp9p 5LoyGPjKEh6koJoZMI8ccYSFkOt3zu0HBZDgMIh/3SRK5/m4RF95PLICyowEJY3fxkzs HiBPiCQi+o69cc2K1LNsbJJ+HMNYWR/5mu6O3KNNZqZ9fcJD5aMDWCHi7wn7PNLzlg7o yvJgH2kFreHcwcqrmB3s6YgrbqCjOD0BgNs3UkjqDyNGgLfhiTD4KsKIHkuYmuC2PbqT SgLw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.143.196 with SMTP id sg4mr1311481pbb.155.1384151909216; Sun, 10 Nov 2013 22:38:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.69.8.5 with HTTP; Sun, 10 Nov 2013 22:38:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20131110205253.0c63c988@resistor.net> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20131108141553.0b6a0df8@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20131109094851.0c663970@resistor.net> <290E20B455C66743BE178C5C84F1240847E3E25DA8@EXMB01CMS.surrey.ac.uk> <527F6064.5020101@bwijnen.net> <527FB928.7000204@gmail.com> <6824449A-CC4F-4308-9A62-9305DD10EFF6@nominum.com> <527FDB95.7040403@gmail.com> <527FE1EA.9060301@gmail.com> <527FEF90.1080207@dcrocker.net> <527FFBF4.4050308@gmail.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20131110205253.0c63c988@resistor.net> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 07:38:29 +0100 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: SM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b2e4526dd3a6504eae0fa62 Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" , Melinda Shore Subject: Re: [Diversity] Gender inequality X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 06:38:30 -0000 --047d7b2e4526dd3a6504eae0fa62 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Monday, November 11, 2013, SM wrote: > > .... about suggesting a woman could also be applicable for a man. Are > women not being chosen merely because they are women? Yes, I think so, but not exactly, I think it is more related to culture, and that people working informally like to work with similar gender or similar motivations. Working formally is more fun with different gender. > I don't know. I took a quick look at the global list of countries with > the least gender inequality. The number is the position in the list and > the country selection is subjective: > > 2. Finland > 3. Norway > 4. Sweden > 6. Ireland > 8. Denmark > 11. Belgium > 13. Netherlands > 14. Germany > 18. United Kingdom > 19. Austria > 20. Canada So there is inequality in IETF, we don't need to know the country in IETF only for contacts. > > There are likely talented women from these countries. Same as every where, but what about IETF areas and WGs. > Would those women be overlooked? It's likely. Somebody would have to > volunteer to find the persons who are overlooked and get them interested. No, I think we need to get those men who are overlooking women. In other organisations that has majority of women working, there is no doubt that there will be women overlooking men. It is normal reaction but needs to be solved for better diversity. AB --047d7b2e4526dd3a6504eae0fa62 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Monday, November 11, 2013, SM wrote:

.... about suggesting a woman could also be applicable for a ma= n. =A0Are women not being chosen merely because they are women?=A0

Yes, I thin= k so, but not exactly, I think it is more related to culture, and that peop= le working informally like to work with similar gender or similar motivatio= ns. Working formally is more fun with different gender.
=A0
=A0I don't know. =A0I took= a quick look at the global list of countries with the least gender inequal= ity. =A0The number is the position in the list and the country selection is= subjective:

=A0 2. Finland
=A0 3. Norway
=A0 4. Sweden
=A0 6. Ireland
=A0 8. Denmark
=A011. Belgium
=A013. Netherlands
=A014. Germany
=A018. United Kingdom
=A019. Austria
=A020. Canada

So there is inequality in IET= F, we don't need to know the country in IETF only for contacts.=A0

There are likely talented women from these countries. =A0

Same as every wh= ere, but what about IETF areas and WGs.
=A0
Would those women be overlooke= d? =A0It's likely. =A0Somebody would have to volunteer to find the pers= ons who are overlooked and get them interested.

No, I think we need to get those men who are overlookin= g women. In other organisations that has majority of women working, there i= s no doubt that there will be women overlooking men. It is normal reaction = but needs to be solved for better diversity.

AB
--047d7b2e4526dd3a6504eae0fa62-- From sm@resistor.net Sun Nov 10 23:05:52 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F21C21E80E7 for ; Sun, 10 Nov 2013 23:05:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.575 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.575 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.024, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aP8lyZow1FGU for ; Sun, 10 Nov 2013 23:05:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D39121E80C5 for ; Sun, 10 Nov 2013 23:05:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from SUBMAN.resistor.net (IDENT:sm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id rAB75Xsu022636; Sun, 10 Nov 2013 23:05:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1384153541; bh=I7K7chiLPeR9xCswt/MBIX1sASRG6o2OPdUOVv5tqik=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=1NxdNdyEb0Wby1peZpIaEBFMQwTewXHjvd80/6TIzFDtiD4etrtx2n7HV472V+zFV LCs5aVZ3TPORkkJTaZ99nS7g7+jh9yvFGAoDRDHLEtnHamHxI3+CCUWHDWyunNBaou skYmRgYxz1FIIkeXScT1HNUuyTERqWA4Zcu/b5ag= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1384153541; i=@resistor.net; bh=I7K7chiLPeR9xCswt/MBIX1sASRG6o2OPdUOVv5tqik=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=adSQaqSfpF0stiLZ1EaLpq2lOqvsgts7cKAaQKZ4uBEKQ9XiWCGunROJYQfVmRLS/ vditA9LuoVk4ca8GcCET8sJBxikTlku6ZElQQt1/myfHH9IJERrWdYzQFnPzXNqfiH fT5s2GNQZDglqA2h/ucN75KrFR6uosUw0WiBoNiw= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20131110223901.0ccff868@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 23:02:28 -0800 To: Abdussalam Baryun From: SM In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20131108141553.0b6a0df8@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20131109094851.0c663970@resistor.net> <290E20B455C66743BE178C5C84F1240847E3E25DA8@EXMB01CMS.surrey.ac.uk> <527F6064.5020101@bwijnen.net> <527FB928.7000204@gmail.com> <6824449A-CC4F-4308-9A62-9305DD10EFF6@nominum.com> <527FDB95.7040403@gmail.com> <527FE1EA.9060301@gmail.com> <527FEF90.1080207@dcrocker.net> <527FFBF4.4050308@gmail.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20131110205253.0c63c988@resistor.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] Gender inequality X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 07:05:52 -0000 Hi Abdussalam, At 22:17 10-11-2013, Abdussalam Baryun wrote: >I am a remote participant but while discussing with another woman >participant, I understood that there are issues related to gender in >IETF but not discussed openly. Men need to consider those issue not >just ignore it, and see how can we solve them together, now, this >gender issue is needing a really design team with private >discussions, then it can report final solution. The regional issues >must be open discussion not private through DT . Anyone can volunteer to create a group (of people) and work on the gender issue. I haven't discussed about regional issues since several weeks. At 22:38 10-11-2013, Abdussalam Baryun wrote: >No, I think we need to get those men who are overlooking women. In >other organisations that has majority of women working, there is no >doubt that there will be women overlooking men. It is normal >reaction but needs to be solved for better diversity. Which organizations have a majority of women working? Regards, -sm From kathleen.moriarty@emc.com Mon Nov 11 06:19:33 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 837D411E817A for ; Mon, 11 Nov 2013 06:19:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.469 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.469 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.130, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HIkKhCC-7Jqk for ; Mon, 11 Nov 2013 06:19:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailuogwhop.emc.com (mailuogwhop.emc.com [168.159.213.141]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA75721F9D52 for ; Mon, 11 Nov 2013 06:19:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from maildlpprd03.lss.emc.com (maildlpprd03.lss.emc.com [10.253.24.35]) by mailuogwprd03.lss.emc.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0) with ESMTP id rABEJHgH023385 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 11 Nov 2013 09:19:19 -0500 X-DKIM: OpenDKIM Filter v2.4.3 mailuogwprd03.lss.emc.com rABEJHgH023385 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=emc.com; s=jan2013; t=1384179560; bh=1cLsoVugN5io1WxyrkFYTBqEr84=; h=From:To:CC:Date:Subject:Message-ID:References:In-Reply-To: Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; b=outwNUlnQ1Yf8KNAeXuSCftO4KqIbgJ4r0mPTSJj99v3E6o87HrKYGKK48KKXh0kv ADnIIcsS/goOqxrd7MtMAfnZHAlOPlCqlpE8cirGFT25OF1+7GexlBoyLWMfwB2Iu1 wqiPiUd5lZ2TcWkKpVN56fjUSDFan9seOSPtylp8= X-DKIM: OpenDKIM Filter v2.4.3 mailuogwprd03.lss.emc.com rABEJHgH023385 Received: from mailusrhubprd02.lss.emc.com (mailusrhubprd02.lss.emc.com [10.253.24.20]) by maildlpprd03.lss.emc.com (RSA Interceptor); Mon, 11 Nov 2013 09:19:00 -0500 Received: from mxhub01.corp.emc.com (mxhub01.corp.emc.com [10.254.141.103]) by mailusrhubprd02.lss.emc.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0) with ESMTP id rABEIxOu016693 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 11 Nov 2013 09:19:00 -0500 Received: from mx15a.corp.emc.com ([169.254.1.239]) by mxhub01.corp.emc.com ([10.254.141.103]) with mapi; Mon, 11 Nov 2013 09:18:59 -0500 From: "Moriarty, Kathleen" To: SM , Abdussalam Baryun Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 09:18:58 -0500 Thread-Topic: [Diversity] Gender inequality Thread-Index: Ac7erHnBMwveFJjDTf6Rzn99q36GPQAOumSw Message-ID: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20131108141553.0b6a0df8@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20131109094851.0c663970@resistor.net> <290E20B455C66743BE178C5C84F1240847E3E25DA8@EXMB01CMS.surrey.ac.uk> <527F6064.5020101@bwijnen.net> <527FB928.7000204@gmail.com> <6824449A-CC4F-4308-9A62-9305DD10EFF6@nominum.com> <527FDB95.7040403@gmail.com> <527FE1EA.9060301@gmail.com> <527FEF90.1080207@dcrocker.net> <527FFBF4.4050308@gmail.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20131110205253.0c63c988@resistor.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20131110223901.0ccff868@resistor.net> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20131110223901.0ccff868@resistor.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sentrion-Hostname: mailusrhubprd02.lss.emc.com X-RSA-Classifications: public Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Diversity] Gender inequality X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 14:19:33 -0000 This is a tough issue. Suresh and I will put together a summary of project= s and update the wiki very soon as folks are not aware of the work we are d= oing, some as a team and some with ISOC (I have worked a lot with them sinc= e Berlin). I know this week is very bad for me, but my schedule should be = better next week as I have been away for several weeks. There are two issues, the low number of women in the IETF and IT in general= and the other is treatment by some participants. For the first, we do hav= e active efforts in place with ISOC, such as the Grace Hopper Celebration. = We must have talked to hundreds of young women explaining what the IETF is= in a way relevant to their areas of interest and why it would be good for = their careers to get involved. There is more that can be done to help the = pipeline issue and it requires reaching young women at an early age (10-12)= to encourage them into sciences and math. For treatment, I think we have gotten better as a whole already. The educa= tion on lists did improve some of the conduct. Continued education will be= necessary. I know Suresh was working with someone else to update a draft = that contains a reading list of materials. This of course requires that th= e offenders are aware of their behavior and actually read the referenced ma= terials. The Ombudsman was also a recent addition that came out of our rec= ommendations that may help here to point out the bad behaviors, while provi= ding tools to correct them. Do folks have other ideas of how to reach people who don't realize they hav= e a bias or behaviors they need to correct? I think this is a very tough i= ssue and am glad to see the progress we have made so far. The plenary summ= ary in Berlin was received much better than I could have expected. If we g= ave that at the prior meeting, I don't think it would have went so well. T= hese types of efforts take time, and typically get better with improvements= to programs. Do we need to add to some of the current activities or are there additional= ideas that should be explored? We also have a long list of items on the diversity-dt wiki that were previo= usly identified. Is there interest from anyone to lead one of the efforts = that has not been started yet? Thank you, Kathleen -----Original Message----- From: diversity-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:diversity-bounces@ietf.org] On Beh= alf Of SM Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 2:02 AM To: Abdussalam Baryun Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] Gender inequality Hi Abdussalam, At 22:17 10-11-2013, Abdussalam Baryun wrote: >I am a remote participant but while discussing with another woman=20 >participant, I understood that there are issues related to gender in=20 >IETF but not discussed openly. Men need to consider those issue not=20 >just ignore it, and see how can we solve them together, now, this=20 >gender issue is needing a really design team with private discussions,=20 >then it can report final solution. The regional issues must be open=20 >discussion not private through DT . Anyone can volunteer to create a group (of people) and work on the gender i= ssue. I haven't discussed about regional issues since several weeks. At 22:38 10-11-2013, Abdussalam Baryun wrote: >No, I think we need to get those men who are overlooking women. In=20 >other organisations that has majority of women working, there is no=20 >doubt that there will be women overlooking men. It is normal reaction=20 >but needs to be solved for better diversity. Which organizations have a majority of women working? Regards, -sm=20 _______________________________________________ diversity mailing list diversity@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity From sm@elandsys.com Mon Nov 11 09:54:23 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C7DC11E81CA for ; Mon, 11 Nov 2013 09:54:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.448 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.448 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.849, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dov6Vr2+ln15 for ; Mon, 11 Nov 2013 09:54:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89FEA11E81C0 for ; Mon, 11 Nov 2013 09:54:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from SUBMAN.elandsys.com ([197.224.135.220]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id rABHs74B012087 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 11 Nov 2013 09:54:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1384192460; bh=qWuHeHkSAIk++jxldQlSoHsn7XpfEXbG2Qrz83RZC3o=; h=Date:To:From:Subject; b=s1m7AWoqXgql7PFez1ssmyijKhQrNc3EgEtOqg3jGmkFV99yu74uukQbVCjzbmBqU FhFYg3C2cVg90vROQKfC1wPxjxIPgPuHWJa2zGrYIbD7wmczi67B1/JNbJF5+KAojx l6158yDX7fKpFOPFWjFWdGD6VqPpM5I+dGRztqLE= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1384192460; i=@elandsys.com; bh=qWuHeHkSAIk++jxldQlSoHsn7XpfEXbG2Qrz83RZC3o=; h=Date:To:From:Subject; b=zqkLXIyXt0atW1fvrzxJr0ayT8l48lBe4EDqag+T2K/n0OZLMwAPlQKhFrTDSG4zn LlHs1SjbXZgz2kzbWcahUCTrcF4wd0tuCwtFUKgzYfLKCcYZeznJEDq2Png5MgUgAa 2jbjIZk2Y1sm7yfoLqoaKIfv16BmCEwT/Gbc/SSc= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20131111093409.0b4e2820@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 09:40:40 -0800 To: diversity@ietf.org From: S Moonesamy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [Diversity] draft-moonesamy-nomcom-chair-00 - Appointment of NomCom Chairs X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:54:23 -0000 Hello, I posted a draft-moonesamy-nomcom-chair-00 [1] about the appointment of NomCom Chairs. The document updates RFC 3777 by increasing the number of Chairs to two to ensure gender parity. Regards, S. Moonesamy 1. http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-moonesamy-nomcom-chair-00 From mcr@sandelman.ca Mon Nov 11 10:22:43 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74E7721E8203 for ; Mon, 11 Nov 2013 10:22:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Sq5f9yBnHAZ0 for ; Mon, 11 Nov 2013 10:22:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3::184]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAD0C11E814D for ; Mon, 11 Nov 2013 10:22:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9952220297; Mon, 11 Nov 2013 14:34:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id A840E63B88; Mon, 11 Nov 2013 13:22:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97AF063AEF; Mon, 11 Nov 2013 13:22:34 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20131111093409.0b4e2820@elandnews.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20131111093409.0b4e2820@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.2; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 23.4.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] draft-moonesamy-nomcom-chair-00 - Appointment of NomCom Chairs X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 18:22:43 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable S Moonesamy wrote: > I posted a draft-moonesamy-nomcom-chair-00 [1] about the appointment = of > NomCom Chairs. The document updates RFC 3777 by increasing the numbe= r of > Chairs to two to ensure gender parity. I agree 100%. While people might thing that finding two co-chairs might be harder, being able to spread the load across two people would make it easier. =2D-=20 Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works=20 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUBUoEgZ4qHRg3pndX9AQKqNQP/UXzkaejNQhVriPJpoA95eimRlVd0vk3W ZpKZE0iYGVVNNmu6YbT0yNFaI4LRm30zjlxLDWlfWD0zvnFXqje0g4lgfn8gRf6C XuSTEF02ck1bWyAaN4NzKobsy/NhKPxee7U8s0ewtxCV0lFx4tKFCdG7IFbfpV71 njUi16w3m+8= =vaCD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com Mon Nov 11 14:51:10 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5841411E80F9 for ; Mon, 11 Nov 2013 14:51:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cmDB3iqOi2yY for ; Mon, 11 Nov 2013 14:51:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ee0-x22e.google.com (mail-ee0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4013:c00::22e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EB9511E80DC for ; Mon, 11 Nov 2013 14:51:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ee0-f46.google.com with SMTP id b57so2765908eek.33 for ; Mon, 11 Nov 2013 14:51:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=g5C/XSIPr8lL4+cKrm8qDLdVvfjkVWvJtZhnpaHvbBg=; b=n79DjZSaT0nnEpRkfoWdXTxAMizTtiiskv+vMiYxxXo3bhor1YEDYKUSJU9mrtcluW Mb/5d/Emlt16TyXNqASS7Tcc+NqMfZvV4afdMPGVSddw3h2BFepDuzECpKbs5zqYxkMZ tmHC9Fqp7KNmmloCPtemmNFxJh9OHaKE+x9WKEfKNUBvhuFn8m4lyk071JK1kjxtIP6N 44zqGr8WDuswYqCwJrRQrROJq2W5C3FxvPpPQ5tnW1yroaPl9a8jk5ufbCWBj3PRkm7/ +F93dY0Dl6KjUe6w7l4eWfnVpxft2wgEG8mRS/+E8P55upm3VNwy40smo7mTAkZvNowG ib/Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.14.101.4 with SMTP id a4mr1262790eeg.28.1384210268276; Mon, 11 Nov 2013 14:51:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.223.196.9 with HTTP; Mon, 11 Nov 2013 14:51:08 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <27092.1384194154@sandelman.ca> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20131111093409.0b4e2820@elandnews.com> <27092.1384194154@sandelman.ca> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:51:08 -0600 Message-ID: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF To: Michael Richardson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1132f1c655cd4604eaee91d9 Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" , S Moonesamy Subject: Re: [Diversity] draft-moonesamy-nomcom-chair-00 - Appointment of NomCom Chairs X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 22:51:10 -0000 --001a1132f1c655cd4604eaee91d9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I'm so confused about this that I can't even decide whether I'd support it or not. I am fine with the suggestion to have co-chairs, although I'd like to hear discussion about the details. I know Nomcoms vary from year to year, so might be different from the Nomcom I was IAB liaison to, but what do Nomcom chairs do, that having a gender-parity pair would change? They aren't voting members, and the selection of voting members may be the most public thing Nomcom does. I know one of the amonymization vectors is via the chair, but can't imagine the chair shading anonymous feedback at all, much less enough to affect the outcome without other members being curious. What am I missing? Spencer On Monday, November 11, 2013, Michael Richardson wrote: > > S Moonesamy > wrote: > > I posted a draft-moonesamy-nomcom-chair-00 [1] about the appointment > of > > NomCom Chairs. The document updates RFC 3777 by increasing the > number of > > Chairs to two to ensure gender parity. > > I agree 100%. > > While people might thing that finding two co-chairs might be harder, being > able to spread the load across two people would make it easier. > > -- > Michael Richardson >, Sandelman > Software Works > > > --001a1132f1c655cd4604eaee91d9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm so confused about this that I can't even decide whether I'd= support it or not.

I am fine with the suggestion to hav= e co-chairs, although I'd like to hear discussion about the details.=A0=

I know Nomcoms vary from year to year, so might be diff= erent from the Nomcom I was IAB liaison to,=A0but what do Nomcom chairs do,= that having a gender-parity pair would change?=A0

They aren't voting members, and the selection of voting members may be = the most public thing Nomcom does.=A0

I know one o= f the amonymization vectors is via the chair, but can't imagine the cha= ir shading=A0anonymous=A0feedback at all, much less enough=A0t= o affect the outcome without other members being curious.=A0

What am I missing?

Spencer
=
On Monday, November 11, 2013, Michael Richardson wrote:

S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com> wrote:
=A0 =A0 > I posted a draft-moonesamy-nomcom-chair-00 [1] about the appoi= ntment of
=A0 =A0 > NomCom Chairs. =A0The document updates RFC 3777 by increasing = the number of
=A0 =A0 > Chairs to two to ensure gender parity.

I agree 100%.

While people might thing that finding two co-chairs might be harder, being<= br> able to spread the load across two people would make it easier.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, = Sandelman Software Works


--001a1132f1c655cd4604eaee91d9-- From sm@elandsys.com Mon Nov 11 15:40:03 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48D7121E80C2 for ; Mon, 11 Nov 2013 15:40:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.436 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.436 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.837, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M1z6YfKZ-Pqr for ; Mon, 11 Nov 2013 15:40:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF9B321E80BF for ; Mon, 11 Nov 2013 15:40:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from SUBMAN.elandsys.com ([197.224.135.220]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id rABNdbEQ000764 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 11 Nov 2013 15:39:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1384213190; bh=TkOA17QXxUWJq+mSntKu+6AMkzwVLKvesc4XloeKEag=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=BeDJoiC6aASztLdpeTyHTFeFDH0akxG/QcqLJNlIQ0j1AFOhComAkmD97R0KrYU7h vRR7Hl6t0tAiYh1sSVXvHE7EfZf8L4hp1htvSp5Sf77caG0jxnYTcLVqCCjhMmvQCE 5ijZor80qtOa4CX0MIU/W6HzlytidI2MMyPkyB8Q= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1384213190; i=@elandsys.com; bh=TkOA17QXxUWJq+mSntKu+6AMkzwVLKvesc4XloeKEag=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=M2zCsoa0Lyi/L6rf5AqVLcxUWvscGM73kVD69iwBmXZ5VugNS6rv3eeklI+vq34HC d+8ohUmvV1ICxx9N3FIk32ceyAA3gMK3E5cjVitsneQOLelK4sO5AQxjyR2RIDzjQJ RG75VEZTg94JCJRWuunmjtsJOEJjDMNP6iywveK8= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20131111145600.0b4f17b8@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 15:39:30 -0800 To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20131111093409.0b4e2820@elandnews.com> <27092.1384194154@sandelman.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: Michael Richardson , diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] draft-moonesamy-nomcom-chair-00 - Appointment of NomCom Chairs X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 23:40:03 -0000 Hi Spencer, At 14:51 11-11-2013, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: >I'm so confused about this that I can't even decide whether I'd >support it or not. > >I am fine with the suggestion to have co-chairs, although I'd like >to hear discussion about the details. First of all, thanks to Michael Richardson and you for the feedback. At the moment either a man or a woman is appointed as NomCom Chair. The draft proposes appointing one man and one woman as NomCom Chairs. Michael Richardson commented that it may reduce the workload. I'll add that: (a) It is good to have a man and woman working together. (b) There will be a Chair who can assess whether there is gender bias. It is left to the relevant body to grow people so that the is a (future) pool of candidates for the appointments. Regards, S. Moonesamy From klaas@wierenga.net Mon Nov 11 15:51:23 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D5A021E80FC for ; Mon, 11 Nov 2013 15:51:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.203 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.203 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Dyw809o9pVdb for ; Mon, 11 Nov 2013 15:51:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from out41-ams.mf.surf.net (out41-ams.mf.surf.net [145.0.1.41]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12D2811E812A for ; Mon, 11 Nov 2013 15:51:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from teletubbie.het.net.je (teletubbie.het.net.je [192.87.110.29]) by outgoing2-ams.mf.surf.net (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5+lenny1) with ESMTP id rABNp2fs024557; Tue, 12 Nov 2013 00:51:02 +0100 Received: from dhcp-171-70-240-19.cisco.com ([171.70.240.19]) by teletubbie.het.net.je with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Vg1DR-0009DH-Pv; Tue, 12 Nov 2013 00:48:21 +0100 References: <6.2.5.6.2.20131111093409.0b4e2820@elandnews.com> <27092.1384194154@sandelman.ca> <6.2.5.6.2.20131111145600.0b4f17b8@elandnews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20131111145600.0b4f17b8@elandnews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: X-Mailer: iPad Mail (11B511) From: Klaas Wierenga Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 15:51:01 -0800 To: S Moonesamy X-Antivirus: no malware found X-Bayes-Prob: 0.0001 (Score 0, tokens from: @@RPTN) X-CanIt-Geo: ip=192.87.110.29; country=NL; latitude=52.5000; longitude=5.7500; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=52.5000,5.7500&z=6 X-CanItPRO-Stream: p-out:default (inherits from p:default,base:default) X-Canit-Stats-ID: 0vKMnP2Jc - 2e165ff3dcc4 - 20131112 (trained as not-spam) X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) Cc: Michael Richardson , "diversity@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Diversity] draft-moonesamy-nomcom-chair-00 - Appointment of NomCom Chairs X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 23:51:23 -0000 at the risk of coming across as a mysogenist (somehow that is always implied= whenever one criticizes anything that has to do with gender), but isn't gen= der just one axes we'd like to get diversity on? I'm all for diversity, and I= applaud the efforts of this group, but scoping it to gender is imo a big mi= stake. I can equally argue that having an American and an Asian work togethe= r, a gay and a heterosexual, a lower layers and an upper layers person etc. e= tc.=20 Given that non-com chair is limited to one (or 2 in this proposal) persons I= think it is hard to impose diversity on one axis, I'd rather propose that t= he composition of the whole noncom should include diversity criteria instead= of just the chair.=20 Klaas Sent from my iPad > On 11 nov. 2013, at 15:39, S Moonesamy wrote: >=20 > Hi Spencer, > At 14:51 11-11-2013, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: >> I'm so confused about this that I can't even decide whether I'd support i= t or not. >>=20 >> I am fine with the suggestion to have co-chairs, although I'd like to hea= r discussion about the details. >=20 > First of all, thanks to Michael Richardson and you for the feedback. >=20 > At the moment either a man or a woman is appointed as NomCom Chair. The d= raft proposes appointing one man and one woman as NomCom Chairs. Michael Ri= chardson , commented that it may reduce the workload. I'll add that: >=20 > (a) It is good to have a man and woman working together.=20 >=20 > (b) There will be a Chair who can assess whether there is gender bias. >=20 > It is left to the relevant body to grow people so that the is a (future) p= ool of candidates for the appointments. >=20 > Regards, > S. Moonesamy =20 > _______________________________________________ > diversity mailing list > diversity@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity From sm@elandsys.com Mon Nov 11 18:45:21 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E39B11E819A for ; Mon, 11 Nov 2013 18:45:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.424 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.424 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.825, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AQoHoJKLBBEn for ; Mon, 11 Nov 2013 18:45:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E8BF11E8198 for ; Mon, 11 Nov 2013 18:45:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from SUBMAN.elandsys.com ([197.224.135.220]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id rAC2hr4H021596 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 11 Nov 2013 18:45:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1384224311; bh=fd+Zilxs4EFnD1XQUFXPIGXIfufrt5FdqGV+wEfsTN8=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=B5AfVVhRIf7u3liI7x1HQ/iPCSJHAoFqgCjvjb2G5AaMUyn67xTFpM8JXCGz3nojB KV2+X0V9Mlauhar91TB9UKEavDVAJ+HZMuVsXX9L13dYP01ujxo4V6pHHpbHkbKGa4 JjlyfXbYma2LeC0XfF4evjVHtMcgllRw3Lh4wjqI= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1384224311; i=@elandsys.com; bh=fd+Zilxs4EFnD1XQUFXPIGXIfufrt5FdqGV+wEfsTN8=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=khvgB5uQ3Ba8+ZNwh+mZDHJGlFCqDpzdRuvHmpOPl+g74bG5jNSOt1zTPJUdeiZth vhk3TbpoCVcRhcWFhCPeom/O9IX2X2tRZLP4OB1dHMJjmJc/fISlPR5f7a+L2Dvo8p A63xVGePpX+TqUEyiWem0UH6DkIHL/BuuiIUBsT4= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20131111164328.0bdb6a80@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 18:41:42 -0800 To: Klaas Wierenga From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20131111093409.0b4e2820@elandnews.com> <27092.1384194154@sandelman.ca> <6.2.5.6.2.20131111145600.0b4f17b8@elandnews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: Michael Richardson , diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] draft-moonesamy-nomcom-chair-00 - Appointment of NomCom Chairs X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 02:45:21 -0000 Hi Klaas, At 15:51 11-11-2013, Klaas Wierenga wrote: >at the risk of coming across as a mysogenist (somehow that is always >implied whenever one criticizes anything that has to do with >gender), but isn't gender just one axes we'd like to get diversity >on? I'm all for diversity, and I applaud the efforts of this group, >but scoping it to gender is imo a big mistake. I can equally argue >that having an American and an Asian work together, a gay and a >heterosexual, a lower layers and an upper layers person etc. etc. >Given that non-com chair is limited to one (or 2 in this proposal) >persons I think it is hard to impose diversity on one axis, I'd >rather propose that the composition of the whole noncom should >include diversity criteria instead of just the chair. Please do not read anything in this message as a criticism of the above. There isn't parity between the number or men and women attending an IETF meeting. There has been comments that it is because of how things are in IT. The draft does not try to solve that. It does not get into the preferences of the person. It does not get into where the person is from. I agree that there are other axes. I could describe the proposal as the lowest common denominator for gender parity. Regards, S. Moonesamy From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com Tue Nov 12 05:06:17 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4DB721E80EE for ; Tue, 12 Nov 2013 05:06:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.513 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.513 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.086, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R98m303E0Cqz for ; Tue, 12 Nov 2013 05:06:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pb0-x233.google.com (mail-pb0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 640AE21E80D3 for ; Tue, 12 Nov 2013 05:06:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pb0-f51.google.com with SMTP id xa7so6926853pbc.10 for ; Tue, 12 Nov 2013 05:06:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=Dl8V/kACzTnckGoPa+iYSs1VBkZSUamVkgSTwNlSyxA=; b=agrEpLsT4v+qvgMhGqirdrmOr5B6Tj99EMPIIi5EmKUn+xIhxfsfXibq6hJWvGNnI9 7J3xaZOW0aoTrCCEuqd4B1kuPLKvnlctgZkwLbrHlrDntGmGRVG0XupfqvaW1jxzkSOI AAHCtX1E4BzgJjI0JfoO0RyyW/LpqzWdmExFUsKQJoNQMwlPrODcvqQgjHGwahHEoKnJ j9deerw0wRUB7MkhXjUEpPN+sdhsYlpHUfbbGQW2VZgMPI7b4Ay99kTKCRDD58AnVtl2 VOH4QEe9XWg9L6cQ+6mFLBjreyHrM4TbNMFITjkb/ajknXv+He69wzhwRMx5H9O5Jxns RREg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.66.162.73 with SMTP id xy9mr3002544pab.172.1384261568064; Tue, 12 Nov 2013 05:06:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.69.8.5 with HTTP; Tue, 12 Nov 2013 05:06:07 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20131108141553.0b6a0df8@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20131109094851.0c663970@resistor.net> <290E20B455C66743BE178C5C84F1240847E3E25DA8@EXMB01CMS.surrey.ac.uk> <527F6064.5020101@bwijnen.net> <527FB928.7000204@gmail.com> <6824449A-CC4F-4308-9A62-9305DD10EFF6@nominum.com> <527FDB95.7040403@gmail.com> <527FE1EA.9060301@gmail.com> <527FEF90.1080207@dcrocker.net> <527FFBF4.4050308@gmail.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20131110205253.0c63c988@resistor.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20131110223901.0ccff868@resistor.net> Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 13:06:07 +0000 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: "Moriarty, Kathleen" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bacc3ca0a763c04eafa83d3 Cc: SM , "diversity@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Diversity] Gender inequality X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 13:06:17 -0000 --047d7bacc3ca0a763c04eafa83d3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Kathleen I want to participate in two issue, gender diversity and region diversity. I started discussing and documenting for the second, but think the first is more important because it is within one dominating region. I have many ideas related to IETF diversity problems. I want to be involved in the diversity works, but thought the DT will start with initial work for some reasons and then report back. Some of my ideas or comments below, On Monday, November 11, 2013, Moriarty, Kathleen wrote: > This is a tough issue. Suresh and I will put together a summary of > projects and update the wiki very soon as folks are not aware of the work > we are doing, some as a team and some with ISOC (I have worked a lot with > them since Berlin). I know this week is very bad for me, but my schedule > should be better next week as I have been away for several weeks. > > There are two issues, the low number of women in the IETF and IT in > general and the other is treatment by some participants. I agree with you, in addition I see another view of the IETF diversity problems, I think the low numbers is not only women but also people that are not company oriented. I think the number of women monitoring IETF are with high numbers compared to f2f participant ( 1000-2000). So there may be an addition third issue is high number of women leaving IETF participation and becoming monitors similar to high numbers of new participants who leave to monitor position. > For the first, we do have active efforts in place with ISOC, such as the > Grace Hopper Celebration. We must have talked to hundreds of young women > explaining what the IETF is in a way relevant to their areas of interest > and why it would be good for their careers to get involved. There is more > that can be done to help the pipeline issue and it requires reaching young > women at an early age (10-12) to encourage them into sciences and math. The problem is not with young women but with the IT companies/businesses hiring more men. So did ISOC look into encouraging companies/businesses to open opportunities for women participation in IETF. > For treatment, I think we have gotten better as a whole already. The > education on lists did improve some of the conduct. Continued education > will be necessary. I know Suresh was working with someone else to update a > draft that contains a reading list of materials. This of course requires > that the offenders are aware of their behavior and actually read the > referenced materials. The Ombudsman was also a recent addition that came > out of our recommendations that may help here to point out the bad > behaviors, while providing tools to correct them. IMHO, The treatment is not much improved because management of WGs in IETF still needs improvement, especial that our management is not 20 percent women. For example, I prefer that most f2f meetings to be chaired by a woman if I have majority men in the meeting rooms (if majority were women then I would prefer a man as chair). Like in USA I preferred Obama as president because he will be more fair with minority and majority. > > Do folks have other ideas of how to reach people who don't realize they > have a bias or behaviors they need to correct? If we get 20 percent women in management, then we will reach all. Bias is more in companies before individuals, so if that was solved we can solve ours. > I think this is a very tough issue and am glad to see the progress we > have made so far. The plenary summary in Berlin was received much better > than I could have expected. If we gave that at the prior meeting, I don't > think it would have went so well. These types of efforts take time, and > typically get better with improvements to programs. > > Do we need to add to some of the current activities or are there > additional ideas that should be explored? Yes I think there are more to add because we still in the start and did not complete the picture. Some ideas are above comments. > > We also have a long list of items on the diversity-dt wiki that were > previously identified. Is there interest from anyone to lead one of the > efforts that has not been started yet? Yes I already am participating and think doing good work on this list, but I missed to see the wiki, sorry I will check it and post my feedback. Thanking you AB > > Thank you, > Kathleen > > -----Original Message----- > From: diversity-bounces@ietf.org [mailto: > diversity-bounces@ietf.org ] On Behalf Of SM > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 2:02 AM > To: Abdussalam Baryun > Cc: diversity@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Diversity] Gender inequality > > Hi Abdussalam, > At 22:17 10-11-2013, Abdussalam Baryun wrote: > >I am a remote participant but while discussing with another woman > >participant, I understood that there are issues related to gender in > >IETF but not discussed openly. Men need to consider those issue not > >just ignore it, and see how can we solve them together, now, this > >gender issue is needing a really design team with private discussions, > >then it can report final solution. The regional issues must be open > >discussion not private through DT . > > Anyone can volunteer to create a group (of people) and work on the gender > issue. > > I haven't discussed about regional issues since several weeks. > > At 22:38 10-11-2013, Abdussalam Baryun wrote: > >No, I think we need to get those men who are overlooking women. In > >other organisations that has majority of women working, there is no > >doubt that there will be women overlooking men. It is normal reaction > >but needs to be solved for better diversity. > > Which organizations have a majority of women working? > > Regards, > -sm > > _______________________________________________ > diversity mailing list > diversity@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity > > --047d7bacc3ca0a763c04eafa83d3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Kathleen

I want to participate in two issue, gend= er diversity and region diversity. I started discussing and documenting for= the second, but think the first is more important because it is within one= dominating region.

I have many ideas related to IETF diversity problems. I= want to be involved in the diversity works, but thought the DT will start = with initial work for some reasons and then report back. Some of my ideas o= r comments below,



On Monday, November 11, 2013, Moriarty, Kathlee= n wrote:
This is a tough issue. =A0Sures= h and I will put together a summary of projects and update the wiki very so= on as folks are not aware of the work we are doing, some as a team and some= with ISOC (I have worked a lot with them since Berlin). =A0I know this wee= k is very bad for me, but my schedule should be better next week as I have = been away for several weeks.

There are two issues, the low number of women in the IETF and IT in general= and the other is treatment by some participants. =A0

I agree with you, in addition I see anothe= r view of the IETF diversity problems, I think the low numbers is not only = women but also people that are not company oriented. I think the number of = women monitoring IETF are with high numbers compared to f2f participant ( 1= 000-2000). So there may be an addition third issue is high number of women = leaving IETF participation and becoming monitors similar to high numbers of= new participants who leave to monitor position.
=A0
For the first, we do have acti= ve efforts in place with ISOC, such as the Grace Hopper Celebration. =A0We = must have talked to hundreds of young women explaining what the IETF is in = a way relevant to their areas of interest and why it would be good for thei= r careers to get involved. =A0There is more that can be done to help the pi= peline issue and it requires reaching young women at an early age (10-12) t= o encourage them into sciences and math.

The problem is not with young women but with the IT=A0c= ompanies/businesses hiring more=A0men. So did ISOC look into encouraging co= mpanies/businesses=A0to open opportunities for women participation=A0in IET= F.


For treatment, I think we have gotten better as a whole already. =A0The edu= cation on lists did improve some of the conduct. =A0Continued education wil= l be necessary. =A0I know Suresh was working with someone else to update a = draft that contains a reading list of materials. =A0This of course requires= that the offenders are aware of their behavior and actually read the refer= enced materials. =A0The Ombudsman was also a recent addition that came out = of our recommendations that may help here to point out the bad behaviors, w= hile providing tools to correct them.

IMHO,=A0The treatment is not much improved because mana= gement of WGs in IETF still needs improvement, especial that our management= is=A0not 20 =A0percent women. For example, I prefer that most f2f meetings= to be chaired by a=A0woman if I have majority men in the meeting rooms (if= majority were women then I would prefer a man as chair). Like in USA I pre= ferred Obama as president because he will be more fair with minority and ma= jority.

Do folks have other ideas of how to reach people who don't realize they= have a bias or behaviors they need to correct?=A0

If we get 20 percent women in management, = then we will reach all.=A0Bias is more in companies before individuals, so = if that was solved we can solve ours.
=A0
=A0I think this is a very tough issue and am glad to see the progress we ha= ve made so far. =A0The plenary summary in Berlin was received much better t= han I could have expected. =A0If we gave that at the prior meeting, I don&#= 39;t think it would have went so well. =A0These types of efforts take time,= and typically get better with improvements to programs.

Do we need to add to some of the current activities or are there additional= ideas that should be explored?

Yes I think= there are more to add because we still in the start and did not complete t= he picture. Some ideas are above comments.=A0

We also have a long list of items on the diversity-dt wiki that were previo= usly identified. =A0Is there interest from anyone to lead one of the effort= s that has not been started yet?

Yes I alre= ady am participating and think doing good work on this list, but I missed t= o see the wiki, sorry I will check it and post my feedback. Thanking you

AB=A0

Thank you,
Kathleen

-----Original Message-----
From: diversity-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:diversity-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of SM
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 2:02 AM
To: Abdussalam Baryun
Cc: diversity@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Diversity] Gender inequality

Hi Abdussalam,
At 22:17 10-11-2013, Abdussalam Baryun wrote:
>I am a remote participant but while discussing with another woman
>participant, I understood that there are issues related to gender in >IETF but not discussed openly. Men need to consider those issue not
>just ignore it, and see how can we solve them together, now, this
>gender issue is needing a really design team with private discussions,<= br> >then it can report final solution. The regional issues must be open
>discussion not private through DT .

Anyone can volunteer to create a group (of people) and work on the gender i= ssue.

I haven't discussed about regional issues since several weeks.

At 22:38 10-11-2013, Abdussalam Baryun wrote:
>No, I think we need to get those men who are overlooking women. In
>other organisations that has majority of women working, there is no
>doubt that there will be women overlooking men. It is normal reaction >but needs to be solved for better diversity.

Which organizations have a majority of women working?

Regards,
-sm

_______________________________________________
diversity mailing list
diversity@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity

--047d7bacc3ca0a763c04eafa83d3-- From stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie Tue Nov 12 05:09:47 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CCA421E80D3 for ; Tue, 12 Nov 2013 05:09:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.478 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.478 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.121, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q5cUeDc+gBOL for ; Tue, 12 Nov 2013 05:09:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9222111E80F8 for ; Tue, 12 Nov 2013 05:09:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D8FABE5C; Tue, 12 Nov 2013 13:09:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KMFjt1-Gfl6q; Tue, 12 Nov 2013 13:09:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [134.226.36.180] (stephen-think.dsg.cs.tcd.ie [134.226.36.180]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 61D06BE33; Tue, 12 Nov 2013 13:09:41 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <52822895.3080801@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 13:09:41 +0000 From: Stephen Farrell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: S Moonesamy , diversity@ietf.org References: <6.2.5.6.2.20131111093409.0b4e2820@elandnews.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20131111093409.0b4e2820@elandnews.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Diversity] draft-moonesamy-nomcom-chair-00 - Appointment of NomCom Chairs X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 13:09:47 -0000 Hi SM, FWIW, I don't see the benefit of this proposal, nor am I sure its that practical - getting one nomcom chair is afaik not easy, getting two would be harder. S. On 11/11/2013 05:40 PM, S Moonesamy wrote: > Hello, > > I posted a draft-moonesamy-nomcom-chair-00 [1] about the appointment of > NomCom Chairs. The document updates RFC 3777 by increasing the number > of Chairs to two to ensure gender parity. > > Regards, > S. Moonesamy > > 1. http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-moonesamy-nomcom-chair-00 > > _______________________________________________ > diversity mailing list > diversity@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity > > From spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com Tue Nov 12 06:24:01 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27EB421E812F for ; Tue, 12 Nov 2013 06:24:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_INVITATION=-2] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VwEpBViA9SBl for ; Tue, 12 Nov 2013 06:23:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oa0-x22b.google.com (mail-oa0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c02::22b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC6D021E8129 for ; Tue, 12 Nov 2013 06:23:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oa0-f43.google.com with SMTP id g12so5307463oah.16 for ; Tue, 12 Nov 2013 06:23:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=6auY4zIIwzmTdLTwilRWzn+A+VH9OiS70Qhyee+77G8=; b=DVpfY7454rYBa3Ezhh6kJTUjKH6loH1EpkWtHtSsrKPU6D1MIhKvZcqW61+PmtyIOC jxVGTSJgvO78+4/Yn7H9VziyYSdn2J6FjneoZLbhO7LcAUrjOxgBK76sARm80xFvufdZ lIfB0grJ17Undd+5lvDnUIh9G1FKKRfK9ZFNTgRZofHDfXT5e7H/Cw+iXUWzTAmJpzzq Csp5sClteHtA8WBiM5ecdZEqRc+b8vvrqKJBk/BzothtAWvYLqV4eUX26F7VRwlSCLqu bjo/eFv7ERwzz3fARZ9zGsEo9FrU+RuiYzYYaLXnfPxeY2t76pEIfTsHTnJqJxsjp3wM ja4A== X-Received: by 10.182.44.134 with SMTP id e6mr30920165obm.14.1384266215185; Tue, 12 Nov 2013 06:23:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.30] (68-240-138-6.pools.spcsdns.net. [68.240.138.6]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ee7sm36730103oeb.5.2013.11.12.06.23.33 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 12 Nov 2013 06:23:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <528239E5.6050607@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 08:23:33 -0600 From: Spencer Dawkins User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: S Moonesamy References: <6.2.5.6.2.20131111093409.0b4e2820@elandnews.com> <27092.1384194154@sandelman.ca> <6.2.5.6.2.20131111145600.0b4f17b8@elandnews.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20131111145600.0b4f17b8@elandnews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Michael Richardson , diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] draft-moonesamy-nomcom-chair-00 - Appointment of NomCom Chairs X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 14:24:01 -0000 On 11/11/2013 5:39 PM, S Moonesamy wrote: > At the moment either a man or a woman is appointed as NomCom Chair. > The draft proposes appointing one man and one woman as NomCom Chairs. > Michael Richardson commented that it may reduce the workload. I'll > add that: > > (a) It is good to have a man and woman working together. Yup. > (b) There will be a Chair who can assess whether there is gender bias. So, keeping in mind that I'm not the interpreter of All Things Nomcom, as I read http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3777, 9. An advisor is responsible for such duties as specified by the invitation that resulted in the appointment. Advisors do not vote on the selection of candidates. ... Nomcoms have advisors, and in this text: 10. The Chair of the prior year's nominating committee serves as an advisor to the current committee. The prior year's Chair is expected to review the actions and activities of the current Chair and to report any concerns or issues to the nominating committee Chair immediately. If they can not resolve the issue between themselves, the prior year's Chair must report it according to the dispute resolution process stated elsewhere in this document. The prior year's Chair may select a designee from a pool composed of the voting volunteers of the prior year's committee and all prior Chairs if the Chair is unavailable. If the prior year's Chair is unavailable or is unable or unwilling to make such a designation in a timely fashion, the Chair of the current year's committee may select a designee in consultation with the Internet Society President. Selecting a prior year's committee member as the designee permits the experience of the prior year's deliberations to be readily available to the current committee. Selecting an earlier prior year Chair as the designee permits the experience of being a Chair as well as that Chair's committee deliberations to be readily available to the current committee. All references to "prior year's Chair" in this document refer to the person serving in that role, whether it is the actual prior year's Chair or a designee. ... the prior year's chair would be expected to notice problematic bias on any axis (including, but not limited to, gender bias), and raise this as an issue and in this text: 8. Only the prior year's Chair may request the recall of the current Chair. It is the responsibility of the prior year's Chair to ensure the current Chair completes the assigned tasks in a manner consistent with this document and in the best interests of the IETF community. Any member of the committee who has an issue or concern regarding the Chair should report it to the prior year's Chair immediately. The prior year's Chair is expected to report it to the Chair immediately. If they can not resolve the issue between themselves, the prior year's Chair must report it according to the dispute resolution process stated elsewhere in this document. ... the prior year's Chair can even request the recall the current Chair if there's a problem. If the prior year's Chair isn't enough of a watchdog, in this text: 3. The nominating committee comprises at least a Chair, 10 voting volunteers, 3 liaisons, and an advisor. Any committee member may propose the addition of an advisor to participate in some or all of the deliberations of the committee. The addition must be approved by the committee according to its established voting mechanism. Advisors participate as individuals. ... any member can say "we're not paying any attention to diversity on some axis, and we should get (for example) one of the diversity team leads to advise us about that". All this, without changes to RFC 3777, which are not quick or easy (and that may be for the best). If there's a problem that the current Chair doesn't see, the prior year's Chair doesn't see, and the voting membership (chosen at random) doesn't see, and the liaisons to Nomcom from ISOC, IESG, IAB and IAOC don't see, we may have a bigger problem than unawareness of gender bias. So, here's the thing. I can't know if any prior year Chair has had concerns with their current Chair, or whether they have discussed such concerns with their current Chair, and I don't even happen to know if any Nomcom has discussed inviting an additional advisor (for any reason), or invited one. So I can't tell you there's never been a problem. Maybe it's possible to find out by asking past Chairs. But even if there is a problem, you might consider reframing this as an Informational "advice to Nomcom" draft that doesn't update BCP 10 by changing the committee composition, and seeing what response you get. Perhaps a statement that the community expects Nomcom members to be aware of the concern and take appropriate action as already described in RFC 3777 would be sufficient, and would get consensus. IMO, of course. Spencer, as an individual, but also as the editor of RFCs 5078, 5633, and 5680, which updated BCP 10 From mcr@sandelman.ca Tue Nov 12 07:10:04 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC67811E817C for ; Tue, 12 Nov 2013 07:10:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RZVofZa8Pdjb for ; Tue, 12 Nov 2013 07:10:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3::184]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D914A11E80FA for ; Tue, 12 Nov 2013 07:09:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BBDA202DF; Tue, 12 Nov 2013 11:21:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 6539063B88; Tue, 12 Nov 2013 10:09:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 542FF63AEF; Tue, 12 Nov 2013 10:09:45 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF , "diversity\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20131111093409.0b4e2820@elandnews.com> <27092.1384194154@sandelman.ca> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.2; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 23.4.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Subject: Re: [Diversity] draft-moonesamy-nomcom-chair-00 - Appointment of NomCom Chairs X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 15:10:05 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have been on three nomcoms. Two were chaired by a man, and one by a women (this one). I'm not claiming an exhaustive set of data points, but the styles have been very different; this clearly is a 90% individual thing, rather than a gender thing.=20=20 HOWEVER: I think that having gender parity for the nomcom chair would change the dynamic significantly. I have been in other organizations where there were always two co-chairs, and it did improve things. There appears to be a pattern of alternating male/female on nomcom chair, b= ut I don't know if this is intentional or chance. =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUBUoJEtoqHRg3pndX9AQIFxAP/f6D7Siq5WYb9o3AbcGYn+gjf0JwnYixs gaiN/UMa6YvNFkFCnNinbtZkbP5hS+FKgUnmiXzD6LLChDMp+H2KdYY0JFlJV8kl 9WG9h+EM58FH91ucs3CUvpmAunbagq21LndHKox2tCXvTQ4fTJ9XzwB+/DBewDmm vt0RN9SjH2o= =/0sl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From sm@elandsys.com Tue Nov 12 16:21:59 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12A3421E80F3 for ; Tue, 12 Nov 2013 16:21:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.458 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.458 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.142, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_INVITATION=-2, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W9XqsfU5e2wx for ; Tue, 12 Nov 2013 16:21:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7B2A21E80BF for ; Tue, 12 Nov 2013 16:21:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from SUBMAN.elandsys.com ([197.226.235.194]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id rAD0IvpC003016 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 12 Nov 2013 16:19:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1384301953; bh=DxFJunwkKvQGZEVq4LTjKaxMXeBbMiBospZHRm+EZmA=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=WUC1WcgZPeRDQhQ0WaqM9KcLTCcUHNHFzU1ZMrGbBb7y2PgmRcLoKC0ZHA5Tr+1jj LvjPEjnWLHYX4Si8Q48BOMxI6f4GIRsF9cwvV3SsKuaOnW0cqizknGxBnbTw5+LoV0 qyD6KtCwPFePSfSP+aTUGR7aW9W59I0RV6Eatd68= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1384301953; i=@elandsys.com; bh=DxFJunwkKvQGZEVq4LTjKaxMXeBbMiBospZHRm+EZmA=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=iY6Vn661fXAxnDUPfG1PpFYh5UHtnioViAhv7hy1A2opkfokxFx4HH+hCNQDi6ivx iddDWEdva5JegAxNSP1/lA1a1gSmdUqOkSi8f+Ukze98WnDXkNzNM0WyCQ05uV94Ad 4nBuEiU7we31q+ZOAHK7kPZknnTAURERGYBaIKCM= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20131112145849.0d7e9ca0@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 16:15:08 -0800 To: Stephen Farrell , Spencer Dawkins From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: <52822895.3080801@cs.tcd.ie> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20131111093409.0b4e2820@elandnews.com> <52822895.3080801@cs.tcd.ie> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: Michael Richardson , Melinda Shore , diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] draft-moonesamy-nomcom-chair-00 - Appointment of NomCom Chairs X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 00:21:59 -0000 Hi Stephen, Spencer, At 05:09 12-11-2013, Stephen Farrell wrote: >FWIW, I don't see the benefit of this proposal, nor am >I sure its that practical - getting one nomcom chair is >afaik not easy, getting two would be harder. I agree that getting two persons would be harder. At 06:23 12-11-2013, Spencer Dawkins wrote: >So, keeping in mind that I'm not the interpreter of All Things >Nomcom, as I read http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3777, > > 9. An advisor is responsible for such duties as specified by the > invitation that resulted in the appointment. > > Advisors do not vote on the selection of candidates. > >... Nomcoms have advisors, and in this text: > > 10. The Chair of the prior year's nominating committee serves as an > advisor to the current committee. > > The prior year's Chair is expected to review the actions and > activities of the current Chair and to report any concerns or > issues to the nominating committee Chair immediately. If they > can not resolve the issue between themselves, the prior year's > Chair must report it according to the dispute resolution process > stated elsewhere in this document. > > The prior year's Chair may select a designee from a pool composed > of the voting volunteers of the prior year's committee and all > prior Chairs if the Chair is unavailable. If the prior year's > Chair is unavailable or is unable or unwilling to make such a > designation in a timely fashion, the Chair of the current year's > committee may select a designee in consultation with the Internet > Society President. > > Selecting a prior year's committee member as the designee permits > the experience of the prior year's deliberations to be readily > available to the current committee. Selecting an earlier prior > year Chair as the designee permits the experience of being a > Chair as well as that Chair's committee deliberations to be > readily available to the current committee. > > All references to "prior year's Chair" in this document refer to > the person serving in that role, whether it is the actual prior > year's Chair or a designee. > > >... the prior year's chair would be expected to notice problematic >bias on any axis (including, but not limited to, gender bias), and >raise this as an issue and in this text: Ok. > 8. Only the prior year's Chair may request the recall of the current > Chair. > > It is the responsibility of the prior year's Chair to ensure the > current Chair completes the assigned tasks in a manner consistent > with this document and in the best interests of the IETF > community. > > Any member of the committee who has an issue or concern regarding > the Chair should report it to the prior year's Chair immediately. > The prior year's Chair is expected to report it to the Chair > immediately. If they can not resolve the issue between > themselves, the prior year's Chair must report it according to > the dispute resolution process stated elsewhere in this document. > >... the prior year's Chair can even request the recall the current >Chair if there's a problem. > >If the prior year's Chair isn't enough of a watchdog, in this text: > > 3. The nominating committee comprises at least a Chair, 10 voting > volunteers, 3 liaisons, and an advisor. > > Any committee member may propose the addition of an advisor to > participate in some or all of the deliberations of the committee. > The addition must be approved by the committee according to its > established voting mechanism. Advisors participate as > individuals. > > >... any member can say "we're not paying any attention to diversity >on some axis, and we should get (for example) one of the diversity >team leads to advise us about that". > >All this, without changes to RFC 3777, which are not quick or easy >(and that may be for the best). There are various paths to get something done. I did not select the easy path. >If there's a problem that the current Chair doesn't see, the prior >year's Chair doesn't see, and the voting membership (chosen at >random) doesn't see, and the liaisons to Nomcom from ISOC, IESG, IAB >and IAOC don't see, we may have a bigger problem than unawareness of >gender bias. Yes. >So, here's the thing. I can't know if any prior year Chair has had >concerns with their current Chair, or whether they have discussed >such concerns with their current Chair, and I don't even happen to >know if any Nomcom has discussed inviting an additional advisor (for >any reason), or invited one. So I can't tell you there's never been >a problem. Maybe it's possible to find out by asking past Chairs. I don't know either. I prefer not to ask about whether there were any concerns as it might cause problems. I am okay assuming that there weren't any concerns. >But even if there is a problem, you might consider reframing this as >an Informational "advice to Nomcom" draft that doesn't update BCP 10 >by changing the committee composition, and seeing what response you >get. Perhaps a statement that the community expects Nomcom members >to be aware of the concern and take appropriate action as already >described in RFC 3777 would be sufficient, and would get consensus. I'll keep the above open as an alternative. I'll provide some background about the draft. Melinda Shore mentioned there wasn't much discussion on gender issues and pointed to the mailing list archive. I personally agree with her conclusion. What I like about the idea is that it is simple (on paper). It is hard and it has never been tried. I'll highlight a point from Michael Richardson: "Having gender parity for the nomcom chair would change the dynamic significantly" It's the sort of practical action which creates positive and long-lasting effects. Regards, S. Moonesamy From kathleen.moriarty@emc.com Thu Nov 14 12:19:37 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2745721E8105 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2013 12:19:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.671 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.671 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.073, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id azdLHcQ6rsAV for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2013 12:19:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailuogwhop.emc.com (mailuogwhop.emc.com [168.159.213.141]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2976621E80F7 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2013 12:19:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from maildlpprd03.lss.emc.com (maildlpprd03.lss.emc.com [10.253.24.35]) by mailuogwprd02.lss.emc.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0) with ESMTP id rAEKJ5j1005073 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 14 Nov 2013 15:19:05 -0500 X-DKIM: OpenDKIM Filter v2.4.3 mailuogwprd02.lss.emc.com rAEKJ5j1005073 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=emc.com; s=jan2013; t=1384460346; bh=WETTtJn5MIiLBoFYgIDo7mms+3M=; h=From:To:CC:Date:Subject:Message-ID:References:In-Reply-To: Content-Type:MIME-Version; b=ba4SZQ49JrQFyhyMEz3XUufaLeIAkpR6UgzheQYPPfB7eir2bWYtWyywwxCDlgYA+ Y9wRXKxS+Ex+zLRATD6brQbTJU4OUaaXuEi2LJ29A7l/tW3UnTLatgItbfUKx9lHaz U2pYSYZ5KvOZmdCWnUjfSQgpsY9FPHvS8d+m6LGU= X-DKIM: OpenDKIM Filter v2.4.3 mailuogwprd02.lss.emc.com rAEKJ5j1005073 Received: from mailusrhubprd54.lss.emc.com (mailusrhubprd54.lss.emc.com [10.106.48.19]) by maildlpprd03.lss.emc.com (RSA Interceptor); Thu, 14 Nov 2013 15:18:53 -0500 Received: from mxhub38.corp.emc.com (mxhub38.corp.emc.com [128.222.70.105]) by mailusrhubprd54.lss.emc.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0) with ESMTP id rAEKIqPI030070 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 14 Nov 2013 15:18:52 -0500 Received: from mx15a.corp.emc.com ([169.254.1.239]) by mxhub38.corp.emc.com ([128.222.70.105]) with mapi; Thu, 14 Nov 2013 15:18:52 -0500 From: "Moriarty, Kathleen" To: Abdussalam Baryun Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 15:18:51 -0500 Thread-Topic: [Diversity] Gender inequality Thread-Index: Ac7fp/b9UK/letguSY+7BFRxfY8mcgA0MjZw Message-ID: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20131108141553.0b6a0df8@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20131109094851.0c663970@resistor.net> <290E20B455C66743BE178C5C84F1240847E3E25DA8@EXMB01CMS.surrey.ac.uk> <527F6064.5020101@bwijnen.net> <527FB928.7000204@gmail.com> <6824449A-CC4F-4308-9A62-9305DD10EFF6@nominum.com> <527FDB95.7040403@gmail.com> <527FE1EA.9060301@gmail.com> <527FEF90.1080207@dcrocker.net> <527FFBF4.4050308@gmail.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20131110205253.0c63c988@resistor.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20131110223901.0ccff868@resistor.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_F5063677821E3B4F81ACFB7905573F240653E954ACMX15Acorpemcc_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sentrion-Hostname: mailusrhubprd54.lss.emc.com X-RSA-Classifications: public, GIS Solicitation Cc: SM , "diversity@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Diversity] Gender inequality X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 20:19:37 -0000 --_000_F5063677821E3B4F81ACFB7905573F240653E954ACMX15Acorpemcc_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi AB, That's an interesting point on people who monitor the IETF. I wonder if th= ere are ways we can increase their participation, even if it is limited to = mailing list activity? ISOC was not focused on companies hiring, but just about every large compan= y has diversity objectives. EMC, for instance, focuses on program improvem= ents to increase diversity (all aspects). Interesting point on women chairs. 20% may not be an unreasonable goal. I wonder if we could do more to help minorities and really anyone who needs= it with help on their drafts. I saw a recent instance where a draft is no= t being well received, the draft may have issues, but the editor may not be= getting the coaching needed to improve it. Not all drafts should go all t= he way through, but is this type of help included in the mentoring program?= Or maybe this would be more appropriate at the WG level where volunteers = offer to assist (and may become co-editors)? Thank you, Kathleen From: Abdussalam Baryun [mailto:abdussalambaryun@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 8:06 AM To: Moriarty, Kathleen Cc: SM; diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] Gender inequality Hi Kathleen I want to participate in two issue, gender diversity and region diversity. = I started discussing and documenting for the second, but think the first is= more important because it is within one dominating region. I have many ideas related to IETF diversity problems. I want to be involved= in the diversity works, but thought the DT will start with initial work fo= r some reasons and then report back. Some of my ideas or comments below, On Monday, November 11, 2013, Moriarty, Kathleen wrote: This is a tough issue. Suresh and I will put together a summary of project= s and update the wiki very soon as folks are not aware of the work we are d= oing, some as a team and some with ISOC (I have worked a lot with them sinc= e Berlin). I know this week is very bad for me, but my schedule should be = better next week as I have been away for several weeks. There are two issues, the low number of women in the IETF and IT in general= and the other is treatment by some participants. I agree with you, in addition I see another view of the IETF diversity prob= lems, I think the low numbers is not only women but also people that are no= t company oriented. I think the number of women monitoring IETF are with hi= gh numbers compared to f2f participant ( 1000-2000). So there may be an add= ition third issue is high number of women leaving IETF participation and be= coming monitors similar to high numbers of new participants who leave to mo= nitor position. For the first, we do have active efforts in place with ISOC, such as the Gr= ace Hopper Celebration. We must have talked to hundreds of young women exp= laining what the IETF is in a way relevant to their areas of interest and w= hy it would be good for their careers to get involved. There is more that = can be done to help the pipeline issue and it requires reaching young women= at an early age (10-12) to encourage them into sciences and math. The problem is not with young women but with the IT companies/businesses hi= ring more men. So did ISOC look into encouraging companies/businesses to op= en opportunities for women participation in IETF. For treatment, I think we have gotten better as a whole already. The educa= tion on lists did improve some of the conduct. Continued education will be= necessary. I know Suresh was working with someone else to update a draft = that contains a reading list of materials. This of course requires that th= e offenders are aware of their behavior and actually read the referenced ma= terials. The Ombudsman was also a recent addition that came out of our rec= ommendations that may help here to point out the bad behaviors, while provi= ding tools to correct them. IMHO, The treatment is not much improved because management of WGs in IETF = still needs improvement, especial that our management is not 20 percent wo= men. For example, I prefer that most f2f meetings to be chaired by a woman = if I have majority men in the meeting rooms (if majority were women then I = would prefer a man as chair). Like in USA I preferred Obama as president be= cause he will be more fair with minority and majority. Do folks have other ideas of how to reach people who don't realize they hav= e a bias or behaviors they need to correct? If we get 20 percent women in management, then we will reach all. Bias is m= ore in companies before individuals, so if that was solved we can solve our= s. I think this is a very tough issue and am glad to see the progress we have= made so far. The plenary summary in Berlin was received much better than = I could have expected. If we gave that at the prior meeting, I don't think= it would have went so well. These types of efforts take time, and typical= ly get better with improvements to programs. Do we need to add to some of the current activities or are there additional= ideas that should be explored? Yes I think there are more to add because we still in the start and did not= complete the picture. Some ideas are above comments. We also have a long list of items on the diversity-dt wiki that were previo= usly identified. Is there interest from anyone to lead one of the efforts = that has not been started yet? Yes I already am participating and think doing good work on this list, but = I missed to see the wiki, sorry I will check it and post my feedback. Thank= ing you AB Thank you, Kathleen -----Original Message----- From: diversity-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:diversity-bounces@ie= tf.org] On Behalf Of SM Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 2:02 AM To: Abdussalam Baryun Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] Gender inequality Hi Abdussalam, At 22:17 10-11-2013, Abdussalam Baryun wrote: >I am a remote participant but while discussing with another woman >participant, I understood that there are issues related to gender in >IETF but not discussed openly. Men need to consider those issue not >just ignore it, and see how can we solve them together, now, this >gender issue is needing a really design team with private discussions, >then it can report final solution. The regional issues must be open >discussion not private through DT . Anyone can volunteer to create a group (of people) and work on the gender i= ssue. I haven't discussed about regional issues since several weeks. At 22:38 10-11-2013, Abdussalam Baryun wrote: >No, I think we need to get those men who are overlooking women. In >other organisations that has majority of women working, there is no >doubt that there will be women overlooking men. It is normal reaction >but needs to be solved for better diversity. Which organizations have a majority of women working? Regards, -sm _______________________________________________ diversity mailing list diversity@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity --_000_F5063677821E3B4F81ACFB7905573F240653E954ACMX15Acorpemcc_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi AB,

 

=

That’s an interesting point on people who= monitor the IETF.  I wonder if there are ways we can increase their p= articipation, even if it is limited to mailing list activity?

 

ISOC was not focused on companies hiring, but just about e= very large company has diversity objectives.  EMC, for instance, focus= es on program improvements to increase diversity (all aspects).  =

 

Interesting point on women chairs.  20% may = not be an unreasonable goal.

 

I wonder if we c= ould do more to help minorities and really anyone who needs it with help on= their drafts.  I saw a recent instance where a draft is not being wel= l received, the draft may have issues, but the editor may not be getting th= e coaching needed to improve it.  Not all drafts should go all the way= through, but is this type of help included in the mentoring program? = Or maybe this would be more appropriate at the WG level where volunteers o= ffer to assist (and may become co-editors)?

 

Thank you,

Kathleen<= /o:p>

 

From: Abdussalam Baryun [mailto:abdussalambaryun@gmail.com]=
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 8:06 AM
To: Moriarty= , Kathleen
Cc: SM; diversity@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Div= ersity] Gender inequality

&n= bsp;


Hi Kathleen

 

I want= to participate in two issue, gender diversity and region diversity. I star= ted discussing and documenting for the second, but think the first is more = important because it is within one dominating region.

<= div>

 

I have many ideas related to IETF diversity problems. I want to be invol= ved in the diversity works, but thought the DT will start with initial work= for some reasons and then report back. Some of my ideas or comments below,=

 

<= p class=3DMsoNormal> 


On M= onday, November 11, 2013, Moriarty, Kathleen wrote:

This is a tough issue.  Suresh and I will put together a = summary of projects and update the wiki very soon as folks are not aware of= the work we are doing, some as a team and some with ISOC (I have worked a = lot with them since Berlin).  I know this week is very bad for me, but= my schedule should be better next week as I have been away for several wee= ks.

There are two issues, the low number of women in the IETF and IT= in general and the other is treatment by some participants.  

 

I agree with you, in addition I see another view of the IETF d= iversity problems, I think the low numbers is not only women but also peopl= e that are not company oriented. I think the number of women monitoring IET= F are with high numbers compared to f2f participant ( 1000-2000). So there = may be an addition third issue is high number of women leaving IETF partici= pation and becoming monitors similar to high numbers of new participants wh= o leave to monitor position.

=  

For the first, we do have active efforts in place = with ISOC, such as the Grace Hopper Celebration.  We must have talked = to hundreds of young women explaining what the IETF is in a way relevant to= their areas of interest and why it would be good for their careers to get = involved.  There is more that can be done to help the pipeline issue a= nd it requires reaching young women at an early age (10-12) to encourage th= em into sciences and math.

 

The problem is no= t with young women but with the IT companies/businesses hiring more&nb= sp;men. So did ISOC look into encouraging companies/businesses to open= opportunities for women participation in IETF.

 


For treatment, I think= we have gotten better as a whole already.  The education on lists did= improve some of the conduct.  Continued education will be necessary. =  I know Suresh was working with someone else to update a draft that co= ntains a reading list of materials.  This of course requires that the = offenders are aware of their behavior and actually read the referenced mate= rials.  The Ombudsman was also a recent addition that came out of our = recommendations that may help here to point out the bad behaviors, while pr= oviding tools to correct them.

 

IMHO, Th= e treatment is not much improved because management of WGs in IETF still ne= eds improvement, especial that our management is not 20  percent = women. For example, I prefer that most f2f meetings to be chaired by a = ;woman if I have majority men in the meeting rooms (if majority were women = then I would prefer a man as chair). Like in USA I preferred Obama as presi= dent because he will be more fair with minority and majority.


Do folks have other ideas of how to reach people who don't realize= they have a bias or behaviors they need to correct? 

 

If we get 20 percent women in management, then we will reach= all. Bias is more in companies before individuals, so if that was sol= ved we can solve ours.

 =

 I think this is a very tough issue and am glad to = see the progress we have made so far.  The plenary summary in Berlin w= as received much better than I could have expected.  If we gave that a= t the prior meeting, I don't think it would have went so well.  These = types of efforts take time, and typically get better with improvements to p= rograms.

Do we need to add to some of the current activities or are = there additional ideas that should be explored?

=

 

Yes I think there are more to add because we still in the start and did= not complete the picture. Some ideas are above comments. <= /p>


We also have a long list of items on the diversity-dt wiki that = were previously identified.  Is there interest from anyone to lead one= of the efforts that has not been started yet?

<= div>

 

Yes I already am participating and think doing good work on this list, b= ut I missed to see the wiki, sorry I will check it and post my feedback. Th= anking you

 <= /p>

AB 


Thank you,
Kathleen

-----Original Message--= ---
From: diversity-bounces@ietf.org [mailt= o:diversity-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of SM<= br>Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 2:02 AM
To: Abdussalam Baryun
Cc: = diversity@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Diversity]= Gender inequality

Hi Abdussalam,
At 22:17 10-11-2013, Abdussalam= Baryun wrote:
>I am a remote participant but while discussing with a= nother woman
>participant, I understood that there are issues related= to gender in
>IETF but not discussed openly. Men need to consider th= ose issue not
>just ignore it, and see how can we solve them together= , now, this
>gender issue is needing a really design team with privat= e discussions,
>then it can report final solution. The regional issue= s must be open
>discussion not private through DT .

Anyone can= volunteer to create a group (of people) and work on the gender issue.
<= br>I haven't discussed about regional issues since several weeks.

At= 22:38 10-11-2013, Abdussalam Baryun wrote:
>No, I think we need to g= et those men who are overlooking women. In
>other organisations that = has majority of women working, there is no
>doubt that there will be = women overlooking men. It is normal reaction
>but needs to be solved = for better diversity.

Which organizations have a majority of women w= orking?

Regards,
-sm

_____________________________________= __________
diversity mailing list
diversity@= ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity=

= --_000_F5063677821E3B4F81ACFB7905573F240653E954ACMX15Acorpemcc_-- From sm@resistor.net Fri Nov 15 00:26:14 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AE3F11E80F6 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2013 00:26:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.955 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.955 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=0.044, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j1BzncLit9T2 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2013 00:26:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D5A111E80DC for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2013 00:26:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from SUBMAN.resistor.net (IDENT:sm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id rAF8Prnj028904; Fri, 15 Nov 2013 00:25:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1384503964; bh=JMxLnoFtUBfhG5qVWvMcjJuHfXTLEkmnGgjO2MwONhs=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=bHkQHStXKKTL3fuvmVn1RxLd8lI7BvL7tl12lQn0QQSKbr3vdUqsAcxLPty01uf0w 9ezxn3AlIymVNFLjiYZnkWGsuILm0uHpYP+lPqbcPljjJToIJWxEjz/aQf5HLP8Bg4 luPak1HYKUhPDugTojHzyTjvxuqSKy1APDpitnns= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1384503964; i=@resistor.net; bh=JMxLnoFtUBfhG5qVWvMcjJuHfXTLEkmnGgjO2MwONhs=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=jCw+VWp2umXEDwmZ62QxoBeUUwEzdnjATi/F/mj7sqlfrZo1JBSZd1w2m4HYGkgwf CkDRwH+M7d3zVSuBv7vTmqdyJ6EQP8Pg6Xk1BqAnlFC+YqGSQlNxRffeEbMZlD9LnJ XCZTeGVyJcEXPeDVNxMkitxmWj+1e6zgXwbfh5B8= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20131114194940.078f01a8@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 20:57:26 -0800 To: Abdussalam Baryun From: SM In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20131108141553.0b6a0df8@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20131109094851.0c663970@resistor.net> <290E20B455C66743BE178C5C84F1240847E3E25DA8@EXMB01CMS.surrey.ac.uk> <527F6064.5020101@bwijnen.net> <527FB928.7000204@gmail.com> <6824449A-CC4F-4308-9A62-9305DD10EFF6@nominum.com> <527FDB95.7040403@gmail.com> <527FE1EA.9060301@gmail.com> <527FEF90.1080207@dcrocker.net> <527FFBF4.4050308@gmail.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20131110205253.0c63c988@resistor.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20131110223901.0ccff868@resistor.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: diversity@ietf.org, "Moriarty, Kathleen" Subject: Re: [Diversity] Gender inequality X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 08:26:14 -0000 Hi Abdussalam, At 05:06 12-11-2013, Abdussalam Baryun wrote: >IMHO, The treatment is not much improved because management of WGs >in IETF still needs improvement, especial that our management is not >20 percent women. For example, I prefer that most f2f meetings to >be chaired by a woman if I have majority men in the meeting rooms >(if majority were women then I would prefer a man as chair). Like in USA I There has been women appointed as Area Directors. There wasn't any change in the number of women in WG Chair positions or any increase in participation from women over the period. >If we get 20 percent women in management, then we will reach all. >Bias is more in companies before individuals, so if that was solved >we can solve ours. It would help if there were women commenting on the above. A participant mentioned that she is not comfortable posting a message to a mailing list as the private replies she received made her uncomfortable. Is the lack of participation of women in the discussions on this mailing list due to that? I don't know. Regards, -sm From allison.mankin@gmail.com Fri Nov 15 03:00:34 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 076BB11E8193 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2013 03:00:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.203 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.203 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MJFz+vFZwjhO for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2013 03:00:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qc0-x233.google.com (mail-qc0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c01::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B475611E818F for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2013 03:00:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qc0-f179.google.com with SMTP id w4so818212qcr.10 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2013 03:00:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=references:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:cc:from:subject:date:to; bh=99sxieQBsD7bD4KI6kDeb18vHAfZFsazYGbzd7W2tFI=; b=J0yTebiURgCr0wQA6MM2wlmgNdZmG+i9hljr7rSemMeYK/tvQduyo1A4V/vXZJHyN7 ovPcYbBR2p7VHU0l2QqdZsHcZfVyg6ZWDfGLYQpdwqYJpInyfhYMWzZQmalybM2FYgTE 74MHmnV0ZXdR9Azf7Ix5NlIOKpo2aMUmsMY1AfHrqXJNlu+ZmCk0605mrBRMDjaZ+iFS +WtU8nYoOXhsePw9P1n9FlEh+3UApNjES7ESs68qbi3eEmWm3R1ka4BtCN8S5zOVwn8a T45lOcXfBFmNMEnXhd1IuEZw0eytDGED9Qux3b5iz07BzWYy2N6rM3E0bKq/M9bQX0q8 BjxA== X-Received: by 10.49.71.232 with SMTP id y8mr9532488qeu.39.1384513232175; Fri, 15 Nov 2013 03:00:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.239.123.177] (48.sub-174-236-234.myvzw.com. [174.236.234.48]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id p17sm5699961qak.4.2013.11.15.03.00.31 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 15 Nov 2013 03:00:31 -0800 (PST) References: <6.2.5.6.2.20131108141553.0b6a0df8@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20131109094851.0c663970@resistor.net> <290E20B455C66743BE178C5C84F1240847E3E25DA8@EXMB01CMS.surrey.ac.uk> <527F6064.5020101@bwijnen.net> <527FB928.7000204@gmail.com> <6824449A-CC4F-4308-9A62-9305DD10EFF6@nominum.com> <527FDB95.7040403@gmail.com> <527FE1EA.9060301@gmail.com> <527FEF90.1080207@dcrocker.net> <527FFBF4.4050308@gmail.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20131110205253.0c63c988@resistor.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20131110223901.0ccff868@resistor.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20131114194940.078f01a8@resistor.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20131114194940.078f01a8@resistor.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <17494B74-C11E-4C1F-B8E3-3375353C5188@gmail.com> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (10A403) From: AJM Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 06:00:29 -0500 To: SM Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" , "Moriarty, Kathleen" , allison.mankin@gmail.com, Abdussalam Baryun Subject: Re: [Diversity] Gender inequality X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 11:00:34 -0000 Hi SM, On Nov 14, 2013, at 23:57, SM wrote: > There has been women appointed as Area Directors. There wasn't any change= in the number of women in WG Chair positions or any increase in participati= on from women over the period. I'd do this myself if not for the time pressure of my current nomcom duties,= but I suggest going to the wayback machine (archive.org) and getting number= s. I just spot checked one of my years, 2003, and found that out of 42 indiv= iduals who were TSV chairs, 6 were women. These included Merike Kaeo, Melind= a Shore, I think first time chairships for both, though I could be misrememb= ering. The directorate at the time was 50-50. My co-ADs joined me in making e= fforts to recruit women and other less represented groups actively in the ar= ea, and we encouraged our chairs to foster new talent as well.=20 =20 I don't have time to chase down the numbers for other years, but I believe t= hat it mattered to TSV to have women ADs: me twice and also Allyn Romanow, a= s well as a number of very talent-nurturing male ADs. Beyond ADs and chairs,= we had numerous women who were intellectual leaders, sometimes formally adv= isors to WGs, other times document editors and design team leads. Amazing le= adership while not actually chairing WGs came from Lixia Zhang, Sally Floyd,= both IAB members, and Mary Barnes, just to name a few. Leslie Daigle chaire= d IAB then and provided architectural leadership that mattered a great deal t= o TSV as well. I'm certainly missing people who should be named because writing this quickl= y, but again much can be found by anyone at archive.org TSV continues to have women vocal and active at all levels, though still at l= ess than 20%. It is one area in the IETF where there are usually women in th= e mic lines, more than one. Also someone in this thread threw out that nomcom chairships have been alter= nating men and women. Not at all: Mary Barnes in 2009 was the first woman no= mcom chair and I am the second.=20 Finally, people have represented that IETF has had male-only leadership ofte= n. This is not the case. Since my first term in 1993, I believe this past ye= ar was the first to have only one woman, Alissa Cooper, in the I* Allison=20 PS in my IPng co-AD days, a few of the women who got started were Margaret W= asserman and Sue Thomson, both of whom have been INT ADs and served/serve in= numerous other leadership roles.= From vesely@tana.it Fri Nov 15 04:03:42 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A93511E810E for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2013 04:03:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.419 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.419 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oVxlNDDWI+YQ for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2013 04:03:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from wmail.tana.it (wmail.tana.it [62.94.243.226]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B00611E8102 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2013 04:03:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tana.it; s=beta; t=1384517017; bh=/sf/s9dCIfS255LZUcMt4lhj4lvSbRhYB/M1EOLZn7c=; l=1109; h=Date:From:To:References:In-Reply-To; b=Mrr/bh991OO0KOP5uqc6zwps096/vfiXoIDzS15FXyhVdFC28bMWLo6/YT8Ux0sCt uHZDKFOTUxqHAbx1dMp/lldP96ryjYxaca1oZPessuYwlSsa3d5PhP2BTwxmxZXae8 5oRPpch1Pd3yC3Yu6KWrO0S/hL6rVACmkB3Uh61c= Authentication-Results: tana.it; auth=pass (details omitted) Received: from [172.25.197.158] (pcale.tana [172.25.197.158]) (AUTH: CRAM-MD5 uXDGrn@SYT0/k) by wmail.tana.it with ESMTPA; Fri, 15 Nov 2013 13:03:37 +0100 id 00000000005DC039.0000000052860D99.00004C33 Message-ID: <52860D99.1050404@tana.it> Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 13:03:37 +0100 From: Alessandro Vesely User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20131103 Icedove/17.0.10 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diversity@ietf.org References: <6.2.5.6.2.20131108141553.0b6a0df8@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20131109094851.0c663970@resistor.net> <290E20B455C66743BE178C5C84F1240847E3E25DA8@EXMB01CMS.surrey.ac.uk> <527F6064.5020101@bwijnen.net> <527FB928.7000204@gmail.com> <6824449A-CC4F-4308-9A62-9305DD10EFF6@nominum.com> <527FDB95.7040403@gmail.com> <527FE1EA.9060301@gmail.com> <527FEF90.1080207@dcrocker.net> <527FFBF4.4050308@gmail.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20131110205253.0c63c988@resistor.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20131110223901.0ccff868@resistor.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20131114194940.078f01a8@resistor.net> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20131114194940.078f01a8@resistor.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Diversity] Gender inequality X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 12:03:42 -0000 On Fri 15/Nov/2013 05:57:26 +0100 SM wrote: > >> If we get 20 percent women in management, then we will reach all. >> Bias is more in companies before individuals, so if that was solved >> we can solve ours. > > It would help if there were women commenting on the above. Most of the people making decisions on WG Chair positions are men, so it's them that we need to sensitize. Perhaps, we should give them a survey in order to gather how hard that job may be. In case we find out they are no male chauvinists, just formalizing the 20% objective should do it. > A participant mentioned that she is not comfortable posting a message > to a mailing list as the private replies she received made her > uncomfortable. Is the lack of participation of women in the > discussions on this mailing list due to that? I don't know. I am astonished. How come? Given the IETFers I had a chance to talk with, I'd say that being rude is rather common, but useless personal harassment is not at all. Nobody ever called me a wop, for example. Isn't that what ombudspersons should deal with? Ale From sm@resistor.net Fri Nov 15 08:51:50 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CABF11E810C for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2013 08:51:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.938 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.938 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.661, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xyl5IUl+Luvm for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2013 08:51:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F37711E8106 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2013 08:51:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from SUBMAN.resistor.net (IDENT:sm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id rAFGpg8A027722; Fri, 15 Nov 2013 08:51:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1384534307; bh=3VYW9sD/LbcW++SmtXdgeetngQFadfkBIFC4HDKD3/Y=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=k1X6FoqTUzNKyVetxvoq2Ub/ZSx/lpVK0OLSoeQNF8yeb5FPC3nRIP/S3k+qY2Qoh lBkbYRBpEm3lK9U3ZlD9TW2kyBr65WJcsgt6JItmZH9QWDsPoy/71l/IW66IlPsnos HtTku5/YI/8R0jgf2UsZJxPA9EfbpGFjynVH1K44= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1384534307; i=@resistor.net; bh=3VYW9sD/LbcW++SmtXdgeetngQFadfkBIFC4HDKD3/Y=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=mJo4aZCPPL2qZ6ueTeZQ6hbvY/LleHjouK8h9QvgDGzZdoda9epJU/u1T28W8MRYg g8V17j8BpJcM/m97WazsHD0Zeo705oqhJqls/fLZuulbkw6hiE7DZ9DoclkobSOb4h pTofXzPaqR6AXsFKNJy6zeGaPuu3OiAOdcInwnuI= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20131115050249.0d3bc158@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 06:31:49 -0800 To: Alessandro Vesely From: SM In-Reply-To: <52860D99.1050404@tana.it> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20131108141553.0b6a0df8@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20131109094851.0c663970@resistor.net> <290E20B455C66743BE178C5C84F1240847E3E25DA8@EXMB01CMS.surrey.ac.uk> <527F6064.5020101@bwijnen.net> <527FB928.7000204@gmail.com> <6824449A-CC4F-4308-9A62-9305DD10EFF6@nominum.com> <527FDB95.7040403@gmail.com> <527FE1EA.9060301@gmail.com> <527FEF90.1080207@dcrocker.net> <527FFBF4.4050308@gmail.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20131110205253.0c63c988@resistor.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20131110223901.0ccff868@resistor.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20131114194940.078f01a8@resistor.net> <52860D99.1050404@tana.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] Gender inequality X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 16:51:50 -0000 Hi Alessandro, At 04:03 15-11-2013, Alessandro Vesely wrote: >I am astonished. How come? Given the IETFers I had a chance to talk >with, I'd say that being rude is rather common, but useless personal >harassment is not at all. Nobody ever called me a wop, for example. > >Isn't that what ombudspersons should deal with? It could be the patronizing or superior attitude toward others or the strong response when a person said something which is against the interests of another person or company. It is easier [1] to send a one-line message to say that an intelligent person would not have suggested that idea instead of a polite message explaining why the idea is not a good idea. Some people would be uncomfortable if they received that one-line message. Some of those people might prefer not to say anything to avoid the unpleasantness or to avoid losing face. The only information I have about the ombudsperson is what has been discussed on the ietf@ietf.org mailing list. Seriously, I don't know the appropriate path. Regards, -sm 1. Please note that I am not recommending that. From sm@resistor.net Fri Nov 15 08:52:06 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B15E611E8171 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2013 08:52:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.158 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.158 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.441, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yVZ2E7Qnlxdq for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2013 08:52:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1B7821F9D2E for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2013 08:52:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from SUBMAN.resistor.net (IDENT:sm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id rAFGpg8C027722; Fri, 15 Nov 2013 08:51:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1384534313; bh=ZGQQVAmjsLJLyN6i7rWZ6DVONXjGd3e0jR31P5s7QLY=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=U5T2BuO/RNFneYXaZocXVHToVZALRqN5bWyAN4P8prA4aEKSbuWiaDKsz9B4EfVwh DgkhGpgLIVBvtSMqQDIrK0xlJ9vbqUx+Fx285pV/RHO8EnC9As/SEvs15ayjs7uJpe 5A78vt0mnd8sMztc7XOFNL2veqPxs1iXV7i/cUPQ= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1384534313; i=@resistor.net; bh=ZGQQVAmjsLJLyN6i7rWZ6DVONXjGd3e0jR31P5s7QLY=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=ZZDvJXAUf25IgriOY6RJsLKmC5fg+s8s690JrJ6XXwh9UsMEqehsVdedTTIDSfYYY SiUVhpUTlpl26ED9HCIImF88/q52iJqchAtZ8hDhWjPCSfbVXlrjVS5nM0RBYqPk4Q o6F9kvNVB/XbMbksI+Q3yL8kiVHYLMBdqNCLt7xc= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20131115063325.0d3d0be8@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 07:55:35 -0800 To: AJM From: SM In-Reply-To: <17494B74-C11E-4C1F-B8E3-3375353C5188@gmail.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20131108141553.0b6a0df8@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20131109094851.0c663970@resistor.net> <290E20B455C66743BE178C5C84F1240847E3E25DA8@EXMB01CMS.surrey.ac.uk> <527F6064.5020101@bwijnen.net> <527FB928.7000204@gmail.com> <6824449A-CC4F-4308-9A62-9305DD10EFF6@nominum.com> <527FDB95.7040403@gmail.com> <527FE1EA.9060301@gmail.com> <527FEF90.1080207@dcrocker.net> <527FFBF4.4050308@gmail.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20131110205253.0c63c988@resistor.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20131110223901.0ccff868@resistor.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20131114194940.078f01a8@resistor.net> <17494B74-C11E-4C1F-B8E3-3375353C5188@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: diversity@ietf.org, "Moriarty, Kathleen" , Abdussalam Baryun Subject: Re: [Diversity] Gender inequality X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 16:52:06 -0000 Hi Allison, At 03:00 15-11-2013, AJM wrote: >I'd do this myself if not for the time pressure of my current nomcom >duties, but I suggest going to the wayback machine (archive.org) and >getting numbers. I just spot checked one of my years, 2003, and >found that out of 42 individuals who were TSV chairs, 6 were women. >These included Merike Kaeo, Melinda Shore, I think first time >chairships for both, though I could be misremembering. The >directorate at the time was 50-50. My co-ADs joined me in making >efforts to recruit women and other less represented groups actively >in the area, and we encouraged our chairs to foster new talent as well. Thanks for looking into the above. Margaret Wasserman and you were Area Directors in 2006. The only woman after that was Lisa Dusseault (until 2010). I took a quick look at WG Chairs from 2010 (numbers are approximates): APP 0 out of 25 INT 3 out of 55 OPS 2 out of 21 RAI 4 out of 39 RTG 5 out of 31 SEC 2 out of 34 TSV 2 out of 26 I could not get data for earlier years easily from archive.org. For what it is worth, I found it discouraging to try to recruit women for a directorate. It was less difficult for other less represented groups as there were at least some people on the mailing lists or at a meeting. As I step back I would say that the IETF is not attracting new people (irrespective of the qualities of the person). >I'm certainly missing people who should be named because writing >this quickly, but again much can be found by anyone at archive.org Ok. >TSV continues to have women vocal and active at all levels, though >still at less than 20%. It is one area in the IETF where there are >usually women in the mic lines, more than one. Could someone comment about other areas? >Also someone in this thread threw out that nomcom chairships have >been alternating men and women. Not at all: Mary Barnes in 2009 was >the first woman nomcom chair and I am the second. There has only been two women as NomCom Chairs since 2002. For what it is worth, the NomCom Chair is appointed by a woman. Regards, -sm