From nobody Sun Jun 12 13:45:26 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1412812D0DB for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2016 13:45:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.216 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.216 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=opendkim.org header.b=wEADaPVs; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com header.b=oW+haMI6 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id syQssGOyz2QF for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2016 13:45:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1041512D0CB for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2016 13:45:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.elandsys.com ([197.226.48.102]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u5CKjB6L020312 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 12 Jun 2016 13:45:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1465764323; x=1465850723; bh=Kbh3ITIu3Vn2yRVs3cOeUq6oAICnSVmM83TGvEI24Bc=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=wEADaPVsZ5W3r/tDTlZqVY02U8b/AEkXcgGhwpwVk8UwvTbkbr9GBoSlQs2VNNEH3 8vQn18t9Q0DMmK49976y4oKCdjpvomavtrwG2yFzZeX2LGiEUneIjsclpRPGX/dj+5 a5i3eKCBIhiMjtrt/8XC4uR3ngX0hO/JkJkE086U= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1465764323; x=1465850723; i=@elandsys.com; bh=Kbh3ITIu3Vn2yRVs3cOeUq6oAICnSVmM83TGvEI24Bc=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=oW+haMI6B92ZssU+xlzg11jH1I0aa+piTHu7yr/ixf9IfbwExO8xGPk0aj6ucI01A Lm+4O94jT2AJwdm2vpaKolDzy3EIWELyXrhjRFu+Pah6tz9pNtIG+Famxns4yTI4Bd r/6B/sWiCO/ZGSpN45VBXPZcdmPybAOXL5duaeNs= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20160612112257.0c03bbc0@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 13:08:37 -0700 To: John Leslie , diversity@ietf.org From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: <20160611235942.GA39331@verdi> References: <0c54dab2-89cc-6d0f-c8c7-a2a65249d04d@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <6597503E-AB88-4A89-BF86-57B06E7C8FD3@consulintel.es> <0848b990-dec1-78e9-7845-1f5b683a49cd@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <4DD051C3-841E-45EE-82F0-8AF4991685A7@consulintel.es> <72313874-f19d-1a0e-0ffa-cc34e380bb8a@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <6ac2732b-3c16-f3ff-059c-4eb9e75df71f@comcast.net> <11AB7E04-7B52-492B-A94F-BD46A986EB23@piuha.net> <20160611235942.GA39331@verdi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Diversity] Value and respect X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 20:45:25 -0000 Hi John, [changed to diversity@ietf.org] At 16:59 11-06-2016, John Leslie wrote: > Keep in mind that for many, English isn't their first language. > > "Discussion" being "completely OK" doesn't adequately hint that >particular expressions of a personal opinion are NOT OK. A person who can read a message in English without difficulty does not necessarily understand everything which has been written the same way as a person from the same country as the author of the message would. The second point of the text quoted above could be classified under freedom of speech. Is it okay to make an argument if that argument would be viewed as offensive? If a person provides a hint about what not to say, it may happen that a person who does not usually speak English will not understand the hint. If a person clearly explains what should not be said, it will be described as censorship. Sometimes, it is useful to have a discussion to identify the issues. Having a lengthy open-ended discussion on ietf@ietf.org about sensitive topics is not a good idea. Regards, S. Moonesamy From nobody Mon Jun 13 10:53:38 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0418612D8DA for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 10:53:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.327 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.327 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HrLqkJ_mXPCB for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 10:53:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vaadcmhout02.cable.comcast.com (vaadcmhout02.cable.comcast.com [96.114.28.76]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8471912D8DB for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 10:53:16 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 60721c4c-07fff70000004cc4-f8-575ef30a360d Received: from VAADCEX34.cable.comcast.com (vaadcmhoutvip.cable.comcast.com [96.115.73.56]) (using TLS with cipher AES256-SHA256 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by (SMTP Gateway) with SMTP id CF.F9.19652.A03FE575; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 13:53:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from VAADCEX37.cable.comcast.com (147.191.103.214) by VAADCEX34.cable.comcast.com (147.191.103.211) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1130.7; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 13:53:13 -0400 Received: from VAADCEX37.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::3aea:a7ff:fe12:38b0]) by VAADCEX37.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::3aea:a7ff:fe12:38b0%19]) with mapi id 15.00.1130.005; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 13:53:13 -0400 From: "Livingood, Jason" To: S Moonesamy , John Leslie , "diversity@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Diversity] Value and respect Thread-Index: AQHRxOtdkdoeIpEv2kW9nwzufLu9kZ/nrxMA Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 17:53:13 +0000 Message-ID: References: <0c54dab2-89cc-6d0f-c8c7-a2a65249d04d@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <6597503E-AB88-4A89-BF86-57B06E7C8FD3@consulintel.es> <0848b990-dec1-78e9-7845-1f5b683a49cd@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <4DD051C3-841E-45EE-82F0-8AF4991685A7@consulintel.es> <72313874-f19d-1a0e-0ffa-cc34e380bb8a@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <6ac2732b-3c16-f3ff-059c-4eb9e75df71f@comcast.net> <11AB7E04-7B52-492B-A94F-BD46A986EB23@piuha.net> <20160611235942.GA39331@verdi> <6.2.5.6.2.20160612112257.0c03bbc0@resistor.net> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20160612112257.0c03bbc0@resistor.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.4.160422 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [68.87.29.9] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Forward X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFrrBIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsWSUOxpocv9OS7cYOZCFYtrt1ewWLy/cJ7R 4lX/TVYHZo97bz4yeSxZ8pPJ49jcw8wBzFFcNimpOZllqUX6dglcGV1bJrAU3OSqWNy+iLmB 8QxHFyMnh4SAicTjK9MZuxi5OIQEZjJJzF95iQXCOcQo0dYyDypzklHiyfw2JpAWNgEzibsL rzCD2CIC+RLHJ64As4UFtCR+73nABBHXlrj/F6bGSOJ9+ykgm4ODRUBV4vf/TBCTV8BeovWO I8T4HlaJbdN/gLVyCthKzLzfzghiMwqISXw/tQYsziwgLnHryXwmiKsFJJbsOc8MYYtKvHz8 jxXEFhXQk/hybx4jRFxH4uz1J1C2gcTWpftYIGw5iWU/7zBDzNSTuDF1ChuE7SCxs+MrlK0t sWzha7AaXgFBiZMzn0D1ikscPrKDdQKj1CwkJ81CMmoWklGzkIyahWTUAkbWVYxyZYmJKcm5 GfmlJQZGesmJSTmpesn5ucmJxSUgehMjKL6LZHx2MH6a5nGIUYCDUYmHN/heXLgQa2JZcWUu MHo4mJVEeGe+BQrxpiRWVqUW5ccXleakFh9ilOZgURLnfT0pJlxIID2xJDU7NbUgtQgmy8TB KdXAODfvevtBiwV8r5+Wys4oK7gcs6tQQ8ml6ETTracH2Zr+zur4VL2+wH7D47e1q+ZJuBT4 cW2o+b7Xy5D9snDa7bW954XD9/+K/sKXpXTjepirYansogTd8KUVk74daV3GX5te+aGFt/BW f8BLb+Edizy4FqnyrLt27+zab+ZWwTmWMyfzvJq5V4mlOCPRUIu5qDgRAMA811XrAgAA Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Diversity] Value and respect X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 17:53:34 -0000 On 6/12/16, 4:08 PM, "diversity on behalf of S Moonesamy" wrote: >The second point of the text quoted above could be classified under >freedom of speech. Is it okay to make an argument if that argument >would be viewed as offensive? If a person provides a hint about >what not to say, it may happen that a person who does not usually >speak English will not understand the hint. Good point. It often takes quite a lot of cultural and language context to even understand a hint is being made, to say nothing of then discerning what the hint was intended to mean. But in any case, I really do hope we get to a point of understanding where it is okay for IETF participants to respectfully disagree with one another, discuss issues openly and with mutual respect, and come to some consensus. We know how hard that is on technical issues, and it is surely just as hard (or harder) on the non-technical ones. It also seems important to remind ourselves that someone=B9s position on an issue (technical or not) is usually not fixed and unchanging. Rather, it can change based on new information, new perspective, learning, experience, and debate & discussion. Part of what we should do (IMHO) is continue to encourage that sort of open environment & culture at the IETF. JL From nobody Mon Jun 13 18:07:30 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 768C012D550 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 18:07:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.216 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.216 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=opendkim.org header.b=SGlhGXvP; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com header.b=LqR7fRF6 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vnFveZVY7HKj for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 18:07:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69DC812DB09 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 18:07:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.elandsys.com ([197.226.210.165]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u5E16tGt006345 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 13 Jun 2016 18:07:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1465866427; x=1465952827; bh=/xaO6UDw6/uVKyOHwhZxB1aD/SSc7oVj39RnURR1NOI=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=SGlhGXvPD9wEOVs9X981so00FWtywvgACPtw0l628wPRo4eI+xHhayDnDleaORWsc /bYvWcSM33bVGAD8JPtOaWCfoK6a3gPT6Ifeiqezea29Q1PhJ7cqUmvyl5FnacKbx9 QnZ0hHn/5aQI3FtIedAVP3fmdBE4+fMK4IJS+qzg= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1465866427; x=1465952827; i=@elandsys.com; bh=/xaO6UDw6/uVKyOHwhZxB1aD/SSc7oVj39RnURR1NOI=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=LqR7fRF6s7yI2VUJemZZS0igkGcjv2Ex33FdqA7risQsNGE8sfu0RSBKIvI8x0LtJ /aAq4rscA4S3/zuya/skOs/IF8sOWpAKVqHSRjygqipJmO1tk3s96EmhnYDWip8yj3 bulxvVDFTe3ouvFxpeiXLJbxxzXFS+VFQqE0yun4= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20160613174355.0b5dfa38@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 18:06:42 -0700 To: "Livingood, Jason" , diversity@ietf.org From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: References: <0c54dab2-89cc-6d0f-c8c7-a2a65249d04d@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <6597503E-AB88-4A89-BF86-57B06E7C8FD3@consulintel.es> <0848b990-dec1-78e9-7845-1f5b683a49cd@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <4DD051C3-841E-45EE-82F0-8AF4991685A7@consulintel.es> <72313874-f19d-1a0e-0ffa-cc34e380bb8a@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <6ac2732b-3c16-f3ff-059c-4eb9e75df71f@comcast.net> <11AB7E04-7B52-492B-A94F-BD46A986EB23@piuha.net> <20160611235942.GA39331@verdi> <6.2.5.6.2.20160612112257.0c03bbc0@resistor.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Diversity] Value and respect X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 01:07:28 -0000 Hi Jason, At 10:53 13-06-2016, Livingood, Jason wrote: >But in any case, I really do hope we get to a point of understanding where >it is okay for IETF participants to respectfully disagree with one >another, discuss issues openly and with mutual respect, and come to some >consensus. We know how hard that is on technical issues, and it is surely >just as hard (or harder) on the non-technical ones. Agreed. >It also seems important to remind ourselves that someone=B9s position on an >issue (technical or not) is usually not fixed and unchanging. Rather, it >can change based on new information, new perspective, learning, >experience, and debate & discussion. Part of what we should do (IMHO) is >continue to encourage that sort of open environment & culture at the IETF. Adding to the above, I find it useful in getting=20 acceptance on how a decision will be taken. It requires some effort. Regards, S. Moonesamy=20 From nobody Wed Jun 15 01:44:27 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8611C12D1C8 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2016 01:44:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.216 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.216 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=opendkim.org header.b=1odCLgIh; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com header.b=pO4NgOJ6 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ru9xjNq0vC8d for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2016 01:44:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05F9012D195 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2016 01:44:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.elandsys.com ([197.226.210.165]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u5F8i7gC023093 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 15 Jun 2016 01:44:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1465980261; x=1466066661; bh=RYZcMNpTXhLP3EPhHZho9WIe2lRB7h7oS8LTM/AbQWE=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=1odCLgIhJuQ1OoMyEKtbdvPh5zRAH5yBFaGnEfc6mYz4YAJpDTrhnVK+rOENJ0IFo LWyu9jDUXIP+NSZiNYN3CPWKKLiOKunhvtOqkYgrcp29NWuuLFdKVHxG9NT/W1Om8j fLKffIMD8IYOBBLwDYdxeT9impBI4IYqM2Dupuv8= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1465980261; x=1466066661; i=@elandsys.com; bh=RYZcMNpTXhLP3EPhHZho9WIe2lRB7h7oS8LTM/AbQWE=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=pO4NgOJ68K9quiOPJwhLYUipL7fexQz5A5lc/6+vsxkQiDF3wBF6sFIN3BO1DJ1S9 6Ph9FMkiH0WExquQMJn5LU66tz+W5G/4dst3hB/D3f/cF/YePqaoXXhhB4zapGa26v 42RLduCxvQk20oZMmu1czTUeQKYL31X5Y9zD5r8Y= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20160615002835.0ae5fd98@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 01:41:57 -0700 To: Kathy Brown , jari Arkko From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: References: <0CD958A6-1EF1-4266-871F-58E410BE981D@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Cc: diversity@ietf.org, "Bert Wijnen \(IETF\)" Subject: Re: [Diversity] IETF Sustainability - New Website Launch X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 08:44:26 -0000 Hello, [Cc changed to diversity@ietf.org] At 00:12 15-06-2016, Bert Wijnen (IETF) wrote: >A few comments: >- I find the picture on page 3 in-appropriate. It gives the idea > that one supports poor people? I do not think that this is the > case. I have found the usage of poor (often children, often of color) > people in these sort of cmapaigns very questionable. Certainly given the The usage of the photo in such a context could be viewed as culturally insensitive. Given that the campaign is intended to sustain the IETF, what does it say about the IETF? Regards, S. Moonesamy From nobody Wed Jun 15 18:58:41 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8005E12DA8D for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2016 18:58:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.216 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.216 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=opendkim.org header.b=qNdqVsiW; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com header.b=JksDjQY5 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Dw4_b2SzjUj5 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2016 18:58:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CA1112B029 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2016 18:58:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.elandsys.com ([197.227.80.30]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u5G1wHpQ023820 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 15 Jun 2016 18:58:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1466042309; x=1466128709; bh=kW8Oh+Kzwvxi7wl6gOtuwLXsado5lLEvWbmtmTEBVhQ=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=qNdqVsiWYiJA3/1BIFMdXyR3WHtm8Rv4U38cbXmmrw8kRTlZcrynO89EBsuNqbeL6 Wkm5SwC4OCYaA2klfh11Oa+Sqf+b69MfScFNyMzGHvtGqKyHmaMjyN4NGMJl430SWM aLCnwJLMsib28xyNHbdzHaP48Ck2RZOIqeYuUta8= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1466042309; x=1466128709; i=@elandsys.com; bh=kW8Oh+Kzwvxi7wl6gOtuwLXsado5lLEvWbmtmTEBVhQ=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=JksDjQY5eQmZ0kjldOYNioFwWlraI/JcCOOmuAhaOOKeGbBt3r+UdgrRIFDTPoXaO L8OYVthqwWyQbOknLARReUrvgibk59uvRZNPtWDHUHk7Anvn7/oN/1WihGyrJ/kBCb gwJgwsup+WwdqLmUO4qekjKuGa02XPFrZel5jppI= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20160615173304.0bd677c8@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 18:55:54 -0700 To: Melinda Shore , diversity@ietf.org From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: References: <20160608135632.20063.81792.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6d8e2bb4-e41c-5cf7-18a3-d6eac6e9a13f@gmail.com> <0c54dab2-89cc-6d0f-c8c7-a2a65249d04d@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <6597503E-AB88-4A89-BF86-57B06E7C8FD3@consulintel.es> <0848b990-dec1-78e9-7845-1f5b683a49cd@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <4DD051C3-841E-45EE-82F0-8AF4991685A7@consulintel.es> <72313874-f19d-1a0e-0ffa-cc34e380bb8a@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <128d6b02-bbf9-3afb-7353-4f411a2eb8c2@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Cc: Ted Hardie Subject: [Diversity] Consideration for participation (was: Value and respect) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 01:58:40 -0000 Hi Melinda, [Cc changed to diversity@ietf.org for focus] At 13:21 10-06-2016, Melinda Shore wrote: >I do think that we could probably benefit from being >a little more rigorous about what it means to be an >organization in which the primary consideration for >participation is the ability to make technical contributions. >To the extent that there are conditions that exclude >people (or make it more difficult for them) on the basis >of matters unrelated to technical chops, we fall short >of the goal of being both open and meritocratic. The above mentions "ability to make technical contributions". The wording might be unclear to a person who is trying to understand how the organization works. One of the considerations is whether the participant can review [1] a technical proposal as the organization relies on those reviews for a technical proposal to be approved. A person may be reluctant to comment on a public mailing list if he/she is unfamiliar with an environment which is excessively and unreasonably critical, especially of small faults. Without feedback, it is not possible for the person to determine whether his/her comment was considered as useful. The origins or the word "meritocracy" is from a satire published in 1958 [2]. The conditions that exclude a person on the basis of matters unrelated to the person's IETF work raises questions about one of the goals [3] of the IETF. I'll quote [3] an email from 2012: "One of the great aspects of the IETF's openness is that anyone can participate for the cost of an Internet connection". I could have made that argument in response to the issue which was raised [5]. I would be ignoring the issue by doing that. Regards, S. Moonesamy 1. The word "review" can also be unclear. 2. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2001/jun/29/comment 3. openness and fairness 4. https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg75940.html 5. http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg98135.html From nobody Wed Jun 15 19:39:39 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E79712DADE for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2016 19:39:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FDqHtkHOWKyP for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2016 19:39:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x233.google.com (mail-pf0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F006F12D599 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2016 19:39:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x233.google.com with SMTP id t190so14803372pfb.3 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2016 19:39:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ihLu/i8sxX/Q60S3SBflQgAmHGU7jkfNH5y48wGsAyw=; b=oLcEj2Y7Uvzq+Yh234l68J/nvLOfgBU9FnDKNEdnfTocHExmTxCNAUwcJx/gMbWnZG UT8/VXsZLS79ZBVslu3sWia/2ixHqYc3aSNU/wmSq5aRqSErGCpkpHexZr8q4B3CjbjG KikIuiMmxZ2sgYiusfzzkToQFMTDhsYII6+iEI3t4mOFyDJ1VVgfm5mEvQ2erlDHU/sn 7BJRaYl/4LPZIH/V+pahoPfVsbOBIGQVzvmIJUeqF5vcZh0cI6+3LV50jQfxQqp7CVRN 9ljRKgh4yUsKMePejvHLGbejOchJAxRGPfv5IhoCaWNz8upsdxDWtc3icDWiSeLwq/q5 NR8Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ihLu/i8sxX/Q60S3SBflQgAmHGU7jkfNH5y48wGsAyw=; b=mE5xfcclIu114YQCN8aBpg5fAGRZ5uLo2AVR6iCWBJ1hkMfFfKW5xzYoRBs2/XLyDC CXUnCiF7qOt24BA6cZ2rhSA2iRQg/dMEs7kHhqF31KLPgH2VTPt4QJBA/SRn+VfD+dP2 VJgPIlLRxElp3EhFql2JlGpX1H3LcDjuIDyr/KRU+Wt8IIPSJ2PfPa0GyK+X6L48YkGi zCGAE/saVXGM3TjrPwT7P1BdSswZNJHc57a6AL1AndtVGWiXmPuyieIBm347keadsRED gCjmRclqMr3CYvMn/1Zxdh1s7L/mANdJCJ31dh8wjGpO+FOPZu3Q/Jk+xPnxbdhPXeUq KMHg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tJk6zJ5xI+gUxEmJkVUWCeUmK8a6ZCONvULv6rHbx66NQsF6fh9AS4OVWdPVBFGUg== X-Received: by 10.98.51.197 with SMTP id z188mr2290201pfz.100.1466044776549; Wed, 15 Jun 2016 19:39:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Melindas-MacBook-Pro.local (216-67-24-237-radius.dynamic.acsalaska.net. [216.67.24.237]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id f187sm55962729pfb.60.2016.06.15.19.39.35 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 15 Jun 2016 19:39:35 -0700 (PDT) To: S Moonesamy , diversity@ietf.org References: <20160608135632.20063.81792.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6d8e2bb4-e41c-5cf7-18a3-d6eac6e9a13f@gmail.com> <0c54dab2-89cc-6d0f-c8c7-a2a65249d04d@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <6597503E-AB88-4A89-BF86-57B06E7C8FD3@consulintel.es> <0848b990-dec1-78e9-7845-1f5b683a49cd@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <4DD051C3-841E-45EE-82F0-8AF4991685A7@consulintel.es> <72313874-f19d-1a0e-0ffa-cc34e380bb8a@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <128d6b02-bbf9-3afb-7353-4f411a2eb8c2@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <6.2.5.6.2.20160615173304.0bd677c8@resistor.net> From: Melinda Shore Message-ID: Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 18:39:33 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20160615173304.0bd677c8@resistor.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: Ted Hardie Subject: Re: [Diversity] Consideration for participation X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 02:39:38 -0000 On 6/15/16 5:55 PM, S Moonesamy wrote: > I'll quote [3] an email from 2012: "One of the great aspects of the > IETF's openness is that anyone can participate for the cost of an > Internet connection". I could have made that argument in response to > the issue which was raised [5]. I would be ignoring the issue by doing > that. I'm unclear on the relevance of *any* of this to the points I raised. But I'll tell you one thing for sure: I am disturbed by the extent to which we're an organization in which someone can participate meaningfully while being remote when we're talking about Singapore and the extent we're an organization in which someone needs to attend meetings to build relationships and move work forward the rest of the time. Seriously, this needs to stop. Be that as it may, my point remains unaddressed by anything you've written: the extent to which we allow barriers to participation by certain demographic groups to stand, we are not open and we do not have our participants rise and fall on the quality of their contributions alone. Melinda From nobody Wed Jun 15 20:52:51 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9748C12D600 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2016 20:52:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.216 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.216 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=opendkim.org header.b=vADl9mTs; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com header.b=EMamC737 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3wBconx-_YHf for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2016 20:52:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE88912D0EB for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2016 20:52:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.elandsys.com ([197.227.80.30]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u5G3qTMR003151 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 15 Jun 2016 20:52:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1466049161; x=1466135561; bh=zP0xdVcCAMvUn7wXhT85VayZGCcgcbpS11JAZFBllSE=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=vADl9mTsp2IRhcXnbLFFD9rvmVsSEpkuodSkmc7NaAr8WkAcCAEoZbtQrAQRYL91E MdA6juW/Ro5U3iI18Ou4PubStY9r6th7KTzxyMOl87EY1HwhubEEhTsaM9Zgkxv189 90vjxWpx7mtFDi5/RedAnU8H17bRJ0Rse3tkFkME= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1466049161; x=1466135561; i=@elandsys.com; bh=zP0xdVcCAMvUn7wXhT85VayZGCcgcbpS11JAZFBllSE=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=EMamC737kKYEXes0u7yquH0ETiJTy252SMvIfOiMbDBHCUNFXyBvXa4/oA2QbMMg9 5GIPRBh/wq7yqkNLvz9wEoe632h28250wTCdSF3pwOWXpRivdYISa9IJ06RxCfFS9h TC70bhEzCcddafqDnnsaTPhlDaX4P+xm3adY/Di0= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20160615203654.0b7b9020@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 20:52:10 -0700 To: Melinda Shore , diversity@ietf.org From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: References: <20160608135632.20063.81792.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6d8e2bb4-e41c-5cf7-18a3-d6eac6e9a13f@gmail.com> <0c54dab2-89cc-6d0f-c8c7-a2a65249d04d@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <6597503E-AB88-4A89-BF86-57B06E7C8FD3@consulintel.es> <0848b990-dec1-78e9-7845-1f5b683a49cd@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <4DD051C3-841E-45EE-82F0-8AF4991685A7@consulintel.es> <72313874-f19d-1a0e-0ffa-cc34e380bb8a@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <128d6b02-bbf9-3afb-7353-4f411a2eb8c2@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <6.2.5.6.2.20160615173304.0bd677c8@resistor.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Diversity] Consideration for participation X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 03:52:50 -0000 Hi Melinda, At 19:39 15-06-2016, Melinda Shore wrote: >I'm unclear on the relevance of *any* of this to the points I Ok. >raised. But I'll tell you one thing for sure: I am disturbed >by the extent to which we're an organization in which someone >can participate meaningfully while being remote when we're >talking about Singapore and the extent we're an organization >in which someone needs to attend meetings to build relationships >and move work forward the rest of the time. Seriously, this >needs to stop. I am trying to understand the above. I found two points: (a) someone can participate meaningfully while being remote (b) someone needs to attend meetings to build relationships and move work forward the rest of the time I could not understand the "this needs to stop". Is it the extent to which someone needs to attend meetings (please see (b)) which needs to stop? Regards, S. Moonesamy From nobody Thu Jun 16 03:09:23 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52C7712D0D3 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 03:09:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.107 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.107 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RDNS_NONE=0.793] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NQkFOYLUpJ5c for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 03:09:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from simon.songbird.com (unknown [72.52.113.5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC2A412D0B3 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 03:09:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [107.18.197.95] ([107.18.197.95]) (authenticated bits=0) by simon.songbird.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-4.1ubuntu1) with ESMTP id u5GA9cQL008958 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 16 Jun 2016 03:09:39 -0700 References: <20160608135632.20063.81792.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6d8e2bb4-e41c-5cf7-18a3-d6eac6e9a13f@gmail.com> <0c54dab2-89cc-6d0f-c8c7-a2a65249d04d@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <6597503E-AB88-4A89-BF86-57B06E7C8FD3@consulintel.es> <0848b990-dec1-78e9-7845-1f5b683a49cd@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <4DD051C3-841E-45EE-82F0-8AF4991685A7@consulintel.es> <72313874-f19d-1a0e-0ffa-cc34e380bb8a@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <128d6b02-bbf9-3afb-7353-4f411a2eb8c2@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <6.2.5.6.2.20160615173304.0bd677c8@resistor.net> To: Melinda Shore , diversity@ietf.org From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking Message-ID: <3d180fde-057a-aa7b-0483-ae8429a16e1d@dcrocker.net> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 06:09:03 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Diversity] Moving to meeting attendance NOT required (was: Re: Consideration for participation) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:09:22 -0000 On 6/15/2016 10:39 PM, Melinda Shore wrote: > I am disturbed > by the extent to which we're an organization in which someone > can participate meaningfully while being remote when we're > talking about Singapore and the extent we're an organization > in which someone needs to attend meetings to build relationships > and move work forward the rest of the time. Seriously, this > needs to stop. If we made that stop, what would things look like? I think we do not have a detailed, shared description of the alternative environment that would exist. Most folk probably have their own sense of what it might be, but we're missing s shared specification. Similarly, how to we get there? What steps do we need to take, to move to this better environment? d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Thu Jun 16 06:46:24 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E11BC12D627 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 06:46:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZLzW_PCZekIB for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 06:46:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-x234.google.com (mail-yw0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D8A412D5F8 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 06:46:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw0-x234.google.com with SMTP id c72so42911676ywb.1 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 06:46:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=GfaYMhDlc+rFNHsd09Uun2TUxYqteHMtO1tvAN7i3IM=; b=XsIj/kx4qs3UiL/ROVjGCXojj/wSNB9gJ32k6mJxFVr+ayfZbHECX++3PMSJ6FOoo7 kPkdGJMCcKBD59sWMUbVa8XH0DgV4jHyaF29yJM6bitRggNn9LzYzT7Hz3srsrFzDLRh cZq1A1Tgue/2X7FeXtCcXWAjhmUcbOU3rqTK6sS34m3iYFHXTcdLf7KAQzGnz7YDv8WY ndquTC1idNEi8qE8/FdYvNFCk5ngLDj2PeXY6ZPD9DrbfT8tYJuCSv9pQT2CjYiPh4Vl CXRBy+XpD8npqyCBBPRdZ0cD4ju8eOdi9K4VfeskEHEYZ1NnPUH9JTnvdJ75Em3EYBht e35w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=GfaYMhDlc+rFNHsd09Uun2TUxYqteHMtO1tvAN7i3IM=; b=CKN69ZjDPPTCm7f4bCwrIhHtIuJSwYct/iQBM1Sj8JHsGVijT6CO2YjYfOKnkgnhBO dHWBDk7e2+qL2RlWSzcOWW0Si5joLvW5sutsLhUG6vexyZfH3jbO1dORqhyHANVokJbY /fjVQs1ZaCVZL2G6rjcxfAb0iB04QeWAZoFJTGhH/Y+QPJPbZXLtzzIzNeoyGhZAx1uJ Vc5teI9L8Cf1Sxl644SBR3J/e07B1VviLQP91/bX4tp6/lk5rYxkLGhQa0ilZqwGxP4R eQZXq8DM4LK+XeZSmFKpy50K78ID33bY2XRPfXYEVkQi423k8bFcyYSdJA4xyIMLVklj +VzA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tK5Y7gZ1O0uZsHp+PB5W1ih9tRUGAkJzyYk5nd4W1f5moT+WiPdvqSMBFY7cZuuJy5+djd0/J7FLHnJoQ== X-Received: by 10.129.73.18 with SMTP id w18mr2648717ywa.176.1466084778333; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 06:46:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.101.84 with HTTP; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 06:46:17 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <3d180fde-057a-aa7b-0483-ae8429a16e1d@dcrocker.net> References: <20160608135632.20063.81792.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6d8e2bb4-e41c-5cf7-18a3-d6eac6e9a13f@gmail.com> <0c54dab2-89cc-6d0f-c8c7-a2a65249d04d@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <6597503E-AB88-4A89-BF86-57B06E7C8FD3@consulintel.es> <0848b990-dec1-78e9-7845-1f5b683a49cd@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <4DD051C3-841E-45EE-82F0-8AF4991685A7@consulintel.es> <72313874-f19d-1a0e-0ffa-cc34e380bb8a@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <128d6b02-bbf9-3afb-7353-4f411a2eb8c2@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <6.2.5.6.2.20160615173304.0bd677c8@resistor.net> <3d180fde-057a-aa7b-0483-ae8429a16e1d@dcrocker.net> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 08:46:17 -0500 Message-ID: To: Dave Crocker Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114dae4a6c89750535657675 Archived-At: Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" , Melinda Shore Subject: Re: [Diversity] Moving to meeting attendance NOT required (was: Re: Consideration for participation) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:46:22 -0000 --001a114dae4a6c89750535657675 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi, Dave, On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 5:09 AM, Dave Crocker wrote: > On 6/15/2016 10:39 PM, Melinda Shore wrote: > >> I am disturbed >> by the extent to which we're an organization in which someone >> can participate meaningfully while being remote when we're >> talking about Singapore and the extent we're an organization >> in which someone needs to attend meetings to build relationships >> and move work forward the rest of the time. Seriously, this >> needs to stop. >> > > > If we made that stop, what would things look like? I think we do not have > a detailed, shared description of the alternative environment that would > exist. Most folk probably have their own sense of what it might be, but > we're missing s shared specification. > > Similarly, how to we get there? What steps do we need to take, to move to > this better environment? I'm not the Melinda Whisperer, but I thought Melinda meant inconsistency between discussions about whether being in Singapore in person is critical, versus discussions about whether being at any meeting in general in person is critical. But she can correct me if I misthought. Spencer --001a114dae4a6c89750535657675 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Dave,

On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 5:09 AM, Dave Crocker &l= t;dhc@dcrocker.net> wrote:
On 6/15/2016 10:39 PM= , Melinda Shore wrote:
I am disturbed
by the extent to which we're an organization in which someone
can participate meaningfully while being remote when we're
talking about Singapore and the extent we're an organization
in which someone needs to attend meetings to build relationships
and move work forward the rest of the time.=C2=A0 Seriously, this
needs to stop.


If we made that stop, what would things look like?=C2=A0 I think we do not = have a detailed, shared description of the alternative environment that wou= ld exist.=C2=A0 Most folk probably have their own sense of what it might be= , but we're missing s shared specification.

Similarly, how to we get there?=C2=A0 What steps do we need to take, to mov= e to this better environment?

I'm not t= he Melinda Whisperer, but I thought Melinda meant inconsistency between dis= cussions about whether being in Singapore in person is critical, versus dis= cussions about whether being at any meeting in general in person is critica= l.

But she can correct me if I misthought.

--001a114dae4a6c89750535657675-- From nobody Thu Jun 16 07:01:49 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F33F12D664 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 07:01:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.619 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.619 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5hbe1ONq979S for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 07:01:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp5.iomartmail.com (asmtp5.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 966B412D671 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 07:01:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp5.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp5.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u5GE1Yt4008432; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 15:01:34 +0100 Received: from 950129200 ([79.141.128.249]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp5.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u5GE1WWW008393 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 16 Jun 2016 15:01:33 +0100 From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'" References: <20160608135632.20063.81792.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6d8e2bb4-e41c-5cf7-18a3-d6eac6e9a13f@gmail.com> <0c54dab2-89cc-6d0f-c8c7-a2a65249d04d@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <6597503E-AB88-4A89-BF86-57B06E7C8FD3@consulintel.es> <0848b990-dec1-78e9-7845-1f5b683a49cd@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <4DD051C3-841E-45EE-82F0-8AF4991685A7@consulintel.es> <72313874-f19d-1a0e-0ffa-cc34e380bb8a@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <128d6b02-bbf9-3afb-7353-4f411a2eb8c2@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <6.2.5.6.2.20160615173304.0bd677c8@resistor.net> <3d180fde-057a-aa7! b-0483-ae8429a16e1d@dcr ocker.net> In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 15:01:30 +0100 Message-ID: <08f301d1c7d7$9630c650$c29252f0$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_08F4_01D1C7DF.F7F9E940" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQGP8cKksCbKjGO1quUlmeQyPvsAAgHsM03QA0k3sncB1A0TvwIyksiMAgB+KO8B4w1LIgKH6+K0AdldXbgCJUmjewIHXctGAfJ1TqwCeCR0awGgZUkUAWNIzzwCDtpLTAHuNqcLAcznL7gBxZ+vZZ9KbzWA Content-Language: en-gb X-TM-AS-MML: disable X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.1.0.1679-8.0.0.1202-22394.007 X-TM-AS-Result: No--17.996-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--17.996-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: pS5owHKhBO0Rj//xa6LvPmzBijri5+RVtq2ioQywfV1BTdeoy0R9D61l cDruwbtb5pV7A2rQWAh3aWU5jdY62EHgiCODMdHvw69AIwXJn0b5/eBqNPZwbCG8WMGwsRk0qbD mzbecxFs5GADTQYiPv9hXIcqvbqHo+GctOeJ1K2bsEjYqO+DyaBkqnRJng/51V9eB8vnmKe9xCE 8Zq25muKMd3iz4jcMVivnS4v8J4VgLGdE+fsESLvVFR4sC8dPyjLOy13Cgb49BL//DKiVczlQSW dmUbN6CyaTPXV1KeHk4JFE5JlohXLVQA3a8+5MyjWe5HOFKvuOSiza26cvwNAoDY6gYCVOTQnIN fdDRtC7P9iWT5wZW12m1UqnpPvLIDAixBlu3NnD9KXlxhBAZb4N12XKYbuJLVxt8iPZNr2zk1Lh A7Mwru3sKPI/dRnkxukYBDbAP/dDLHrDgIn7a5fYiLRVJ915DO69hrW/YgWFPHRT/jT6uvtroEG QiudNy50tk9VbmwM153HJ/9tpDR5vaiE3PQX6k1P5NwiFRQIFkkCTTgQDPZSf6nnnZywjVj+xgE Enuf532wUToZ9jiBjwu4/5s6Qxany+g/E7TmazPO7ODp2BrgjK1/qdbjc7QPd2nEgQbAJrwWEaN OnlY997Yzt4TtX6drC9NCmw8EAuLMWEQIO6h8PilM7nponT8kBfdTMRAXUalF7MF/8ayEnii5kS OR4tGsJkYS7cb8jqGAoXhhbsbIC95uXownWhRnQrZDK7DrTqZEoWHC6Rh/WTNuWQFsA2GYBBGfc v6WOGNIndKSIasU9eS5VWUkyw9nHoiWJ/w7MaeAiCmPx4NwGmRqNBHmBve1kTfEkyaZdxFGCd0S 0NCsvTKqRVHmIr9Xei0k8mjrmepru/MJAeRUfJZKXPGRDNOxYVzI3UCCaY= Archived-At: Cc: diversity@ietf.org, 'Melinda Shore' Subject: Re: [Diversity] Moving to meeting attendance NOT required (was: Re: Consideration for participation) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 14:01:47 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_08F4_01D1C7DF.F7F9E940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think Spencer caught it right (but I am also not the Mouthpiece of = Melinda :-) =20 However, my reading is that this is not black and white. Nothing we do = is "critical", "vital", or in any other way "necessary". There are just = shades of desirable and beneficial. There are trade-offs, and missing = one meeting (for whatever reason - enforced, imposed, chosen,... ) is = less likely to have an impact than never attending. =20 I think SM is actually in a really good position to talk to this precise = point on attendance. He has been active in the IETF for a long time and = has achieved stuff. Yet he is not often physically at IETF meetings. I'd = like to hear his views, but my guess is: being there is nice, = interesting, and helpful, but not being there does not prevent real work = from being done. =20 Adrian =20 From: diversity [mailto:diversity-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Spencer = Dawkins at IETF Sent: 16 June 2016 14:46 To: Dave Crocker Cc: diversity@ietf.org; Melinda Shore Subject: Re: [Diversity] Moving to meeting attendance NOT required (was: = Re: Consideration for participation) =20 Hi, Dave, =20 On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 5:09 AM, Dave Crocker wrote: On 6/15/2016 10:39 PM, Melinda Shore wrote: I am disturbed by the extent to which we're an organization in which someone can participate meaningfully while being remote when we're talking about Singapore and the extent we're an organization in which someone needs to attend meetings to build relationships and move work forward the rest of the time. Seriously, this needs to stop. If we made that stop, what would things look like? I think we do not = have a detailed, shared description of the alternative environment that = would exist. Most folk probably have their own sense of what it might = be, but we're missing s shared specification. Similarly, how to we get there? What steps do we need to take, to move = to this better environment? =20 I'm not the Melinda Whisperer, but I thought Melinda meant inconsistency = between discussions about whether being in Singapore in person is = critical, versus discussions about whether being at any meeting in = general in person is critical. =20 But she can correct me if I misthought. =20 Spencer=20 ------=_NextPart_000_08F4_01D1C7DF.F7F9E940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I think Spencer caught it = right (but I am also not the Mouthpiece of Melinda = :-)

 

However, my reading is that = this is not black and white. Nothing we do is "critical", = "vital", or in any other way "necessary". =C2=A0There are just shades of = desirable and beneficial. There are trade-offs, and missing one meeting = (for whatever reason - enforced, imposed, chosen,... ) is less likely to = have an impact than never attending.

 

I think SM is actually in a = really good position to talk to this precise point on attendance. He has = been active in the IETF for a long time and has achieved stuff. Yet he = is not often physically at IETF meetings. I'd like to hear his views, = but my guess is: being there is nice, interesting, and helpful, but not = being there does not prevent real work from being = done.

 

Adrian

 

From: diversity = [mailto:diversity-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Spencer Dawkins = at IETF
Sent: 16 June 2016 14:46
To: Dave = Crocker
Cc: diversity@ietf.org; Melinda = Shore
Subject: Re: [Diversity] Moving to meeting attendance = NOT required (was: Re: Consideration for = participation)

 

Hi, = Dave,

 

On Thu, = Jun 16, 2016 at 5:09 AM, Dave Crocker <dhc@dcrocker.net> wrote:

On 6/15/2016 10:39 PM, Melinda Shore = wrote:

I am disturbed
by the = extent to which we're an organization in which someone
can = participate meaningfully while being remote when we're
talking about = Singapore and the extent we're an organization
in which someone needs = to attend meetings to build relationships
and move work forward the = rest of the time.  Seriously, this
needs to = stop.



If we made that stop, = what would things look like?  I think we do not have a detailed, = shared description of the alternative environment that would = exist.  Most folk probably have their own sense of what it might = be, but we're missing s shared specification.

Similarly, how to = we get there?  What steps do we need to take, to move to this = better environment?

 

I'm not the Melinda Whisperer, but I thought Melinda = meant inconsistency between discussions about whether being in Singapore = in person is critical, versus discussions about whether being at any = meeting in general in person is critical.

 

But she can correct me if I = misthought.

 

Spencer 

------=_NextPart_000_08F4_01D1C7DF.F7F9E940-- From nobody Thu Jun 16 09:56:05 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 838D112D9A8 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:56:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C7WViH7UVCcW for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:55:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x231.google.com (mail-pf0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC4CF12D96F for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:55:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x231.google.com with SMTP id i123so17892256pfg.0 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:55:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=DLdwDqATiF2WZTR6V0T9MZragPuiGWC+1oHp4ij1d7E=; b=bHCPXTl+r+0QQ47t2DtFPYs0xVmuqjRT2oqR0/QPdbq8fy4NENUW2EorpqZWrfkWS4 +i/YH8qkCwvGOgkO/pZXnJ2EmI6/9fsdjmvrTkP4vEn7chrnMKgrHx6m7TzuByZxGWLb YPstVlGQEoKtEwsaKGnDtxWRh0Q5CRFoH2PDiRcnoKEY/Afj+ZyI3tTovXcB0YyVlMUc POCDdAVVzlGwisvRGiU3JmtvNMeZe/RgT0bphbdRJLYm/5JewHethueXzeBens7NvYcV PANtYkVxW77SOe7xQjsS/7Q53FryP4PpBHqGJKS1iNfn5o6E3M8+0pZWuTcNzPaw0Yl6 CkkA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=DLdwDqATiF2WZTR6V0T9MZragPuiGWC+1oHp4ij1d7E=; b=GQn5I/K7ljQ30JYCuTtq41vDS+TKL4h0BhJkPeRwSndv1MNt7D4WFySAsGL3+JytAz IvTiFVxIyd/BxqIyjk78trzcYUoXb28X++sRHd0da29mCzSuPZ5KJoOwffXTMiBoY3rA I//i7yaPIxUK3/jqlkxaiORgKHTAO2PSDRqLwAq5R6KEn3XzKLWuJHCJZ90o3wRCDsst Ejze+9vDfetde98OkFe+kw0JuXHPt1GmG0gIYyEMOtwobzplYBQi+crjF96Cc+aLpDUY tdRIJ1Z6+nqSnv+HmmgWmeJ85LEazNgk/rBHRavCsu4UigwJopXWeM2XXmW52VHArSd5 hxGg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tLtGj13725A+r9k6lLsSUFt87aGHNP1fsj2c3BB77uLnqjcsRTQOYEjQS2vknHbWA== X-Received: by 10.98.19.133 with SMTP id 5mr6374535pft.17.1466096155270; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:55:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Melindas-MacBook-Pro.local (216-67-71-241-radius.dynamic.acsalaska.net. [216.67.71.241]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id zo15sm41522351pab.15.2016.06.16.09.55.53 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:55:54 -0700 (PDT) To: adrian@olddog.co.uk, 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' References: <20160608135632.20063.81792.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0c54dab2-89cc-6d0f-c8c7-a2a65249d04d@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <6597503E-AB88-4A89-BF86-57B06E7C8FD3@consulintel.es> <0848b990-dec1-78e9-7845-1f5b683a49cd@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <4DD051C3-841E-45EE-82F0-8AF4991685A7@consulintel.es> <72313874-f19d-1a0e-0ffa-cc34e380bb8a@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <128d6b02-bbf9-3afb-7353-4f411a2eb8c2@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <6.2.5.6.2.20160615173304.0bd677c8@resistor.net> <3d180fde-057a-aa7! b-0483-ae8429a16e1d@dcr ocker.net> <08f301d1c7d7$9630c650$c29252f0$@olddog.co.uk> From: Melinda Shore Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 08:55:51 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <08f301d1c7d7$9630c650$c29252f0$@olddog.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] Moving to meeting attendance NOT required X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 16:56:00 -0000 On 6/16/16 6:01 AM, Adrian Farrel wrote: > I think Spencer caught it right (but I am also not the Mouthpiece of > Melinda :-) Yes, you're both correct. > However, my reading is that this is not black and white. Nothing we do > is "critical", "vital", or in any other way "necessary". There are just > shades of desirable and beneficial. There are trade-offs, and missing > one meeting (for whatever reason - enforced, imposed, chosen,... ) is > less likely to have an impact than never attending. To be clear, as I've said again and again and again and again, I think we've come to overemphasize meetings and it's a contributing factor to slowed pace of work, narrower participant base than we might have, and so on. I also think this is in large part due to some chairing decisions and one of the things on my to-do list over the next few weeks is to get out a draft describing things that can be done by chairs to de-emphasize meetings in our work process. I'll note that I've also missed a lot of meetings, myself. That said, my concern here is that people during discussions about virtualizing meetings or reducing their number, we get a lot of people saying meetings meetings meetings meetings meetings meetings, but when a problem comes up that makes it difficult for people with some demographic characteristics to participate and that it might require the organization to actually do something, suddenly it's "meetings, whatever - you don't really need to be there." I certainly don't think it's intentional and I certainly don't think it's the result of any animus, but it does reflect some of the difficulty around this issue. Melinda From nobody Thu Jun 16 10:19:45 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D71AC12DA1B for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:19:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.216 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.216 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=opendkim.org header.b=SnHRjp1F; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com header.b=zr4Fa2p8 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oJ9t2cauPWJf for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E58F312D7D8 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:19:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.elandsys.com ([197.226.208.76]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u5GHJDIJ010114 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:19:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1466097566; x=1466183966; bh=sxcHcpwNAM6ll2gX2OjBpwMgSyUUAvNjvUCdr4AQ7Js=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=SnHRjp1FS1gumw8mffh+qw+tMf/2Ngj7qe3Zh/A+R7IjM+mgkq5akph5K6t772DDr cY4VFKRE42dLwKD0pCI0c9zhIPunVbk6DQBsS7sy6VnDboUa4nsrBgHFw9O65R8CP2 hObCRVo2hNxGvpNL8dn5JimkjLKzN4gotf6LcNSM= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1466097566; x=1466183966; i=@elandsys.com; bh=sxcHcpwNAM6ll2gX2OjBpwMgSyUUAvNjvUCdr4AQ7Js=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=zr4Fa2p8bLloNScbOzokbmHgnNdhAoHcv0wRO0CKwqv9KsOCtJoXpbB2sfVhYoDKV C4vidEVD1hZNGC+QgUJvTwQP/WslNJxHeAWQRShpAS76n63UwHVA8yxFlOEU+dPXyi ID7aikQaQZLPFtn0hw4TJMLwba5cTfMKrpvi/LIY= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20160616075137.0b19ac90@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:59:03 -0700 To: adrian@olddog.co.uk, Spencer Dawkins at IETF , diversity@ietf.org From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: <08f301d1c7d7$9630c650$c29252f0$@olddog.co.uk> References: <20160608135632.20063.81792.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6d8e2bb4-e41c-5cf7-18a3-d6eac6e9a13f@gmail.com> <0c54dab2-89cc-6d0f-c8c7-a2a65249d04d@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <6597503E-AB88-4A89-BF86-57B06E7C8FD3@consulintel.es> <0848b990-dec1-78e9-7845-1f5b683a49cd@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <4DD051C3-841E-45EE-82F0-8AF4991685A7@consulintel.es> <72313874-f19d-1a0e-0ffa-cc34e380bb8a@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <128d6b02-bbf9-3afb-7353-4f411a2eb8c2@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <6.2.5.6.2.20160615173304.0bd677c8@resistor.net> <3d180fde-057a-aa7! b-0483-ae8429a16e1d@dcr ocker.net> <08f301d1c7d7$9630c650$c29252f0$@olddog.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Diversity] Moving to meeting attendance NOT required X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 17:19:44 -0000 Hi Adrian, Spencer, At 07:01 16-06-2016, Adrian Farrel wrote: >I think SM is actually in a really good position to talk to this >precise point on attendance. He has been active in the IETF for a >long time and has achieved stuff. Yet he is not often physically at >IETF meetings. I'd like to hear his views, but my guess is: being >there is nice, interesting, and helpful, but not being there does >not prevent real work from being done. The simple answer to that being there is nice, interesting, and helpful. I have served as Working Group Secretary, Document Shepherd, Working Group Chair, Team Lead of a Directorate, and Document Editor. I am also a RFC Author. Some of the considerations for being there are to avoid internet connectivity issues, time zone difference, or if the person is expected to be there. Regards, S. Moonesamy From nobody Sun Jun 19 04:20:52 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA67712B02B for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 04:20:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tTBnwdWz3os7 for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 04:20:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22e.google.com (mail-qk0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A68D1128B44 for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 04:20:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id t127so9604750qkf.1 for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 04:20:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ypqwsWTfCXes9VWZygCysFwI9zDM+NdA9pqWmCDsfH4=; b=N/1NDjx8qUcLfmN6LQ7Aacft2b5+VPDtSL6F3nSOFaRqsOvn819GRk/LbX4dX9eOjh QjsQ4M0Re+pT+KRuGkBPOup43l2VBkH58f/UNV3As154GeVrT6tjK4l9tgPZXBiZkt22 sGD76TkDCtWjGl6WavVeU0+gTVZLWMYzKCNUHr+UXBj3EhMdt88NGONRNaVkwFEmvEB3 aAKsmF9a83mhcQ5oLdpZ9UKIAV6Z42TjaYY7uk5XBnzsDd595m2IJ/mXCqqEvXSww+Vt h5aaWkxIOew8AdEwy2neTCLMEDcIWvvtw1qZxIYygNL0UcyDtQsgzW6m9OetDLpdv/v+ VmOA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ypqwsWTfCXes9VWZygCysFwI9zDM+NdA9pqWmCDsfH4=; b=MEn9r5CVBr+c9SzjV+XDsT69/Pclpy2SPjbd7m4I44Zg20ByAS1PM0HPRzi/NfVTVe uJ8KiXC69fcUFInRdGJncfbl4Rlix/NvyXCdiiWTxoJB+6rMYH7TRso1yiT4h0DcTIBM Iga2c7vF+2HukSokN+ZZUCufjw37g2KxF4bmbSlsXlsgYHWXI57KLNQU9ucF/1AgUeGc 0YCsfCD/98QEJ0hcFiFS+7CvR1z2Jrs2p8cEM/WX89G14rbHWojX3PDNTWGhe/qrM0Xu Ce96N9O8cWzHjshT3iZI9ouYHtJ58XmU9yaskSAeMqvNrbC1S8092s2+mbE+X4khqRPd 5Ndw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tIetgme6JPkHkCGyoM6THZFDGnsaZMpQxNklaGtLj7JqRYvuf8wJhYnWZPBv3GSDlEq44FAxl1fuJdR6A== X-Received: by 10.55.217.24 with SMTP id u24mr13462309qki.93.1466335248731; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 04:20:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.84.37 with HTTP; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 04:20:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20160615203654.0b7b9020@elandnews.com> References: <20160608135632.20063.81792.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6d8e2bb4-e41c-5cf7-18a3-d6eac6e9a13f@gmail.com> <0c54dab2-89cc-6d0f-c8c7-a2a65249d04d@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <6597503E-AB88-4A89-BF86-57B06E7C8FD3@consulintel.es> <0848b990-dec1-78e9-7845-1f5b683a49cd@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <4DD051C3-841E-45EE-82F0-8AF4991685A7@consulintel.es> <72313874-f19d-1a0e-0ffa-cc34e380bb8a@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <128d6b02-bbf9-3afb-7353-4f411a2eb8c2@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <6.2.5.6.2.20160615173304.0bd677c8@resistor.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20160615203654.0b7b9020@elandnews.com> From: Abdussalam Baryun Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 13:20:48 +0200 Message-ID: To: S Moonesamy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1147a0209f6d2d05359fc71a Archived-At: Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" , Melinda Shore Subject: Re: [Diversity] Consideration for participation X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 11:20:52 -0000 --001a1147a0209f6d2d05359fc71a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi S. Moonesamy, I did not understand some lines in both conversation, and sorry if it is long email, I think I understood the issue raised, that a participant with low technical contribution should not be equally considered as a participant with high quality, or what is argued is when we decide to go to a city (ex. singapore or paris, etc.) if few high quality contributors cannot meet then we should change, or when we decide to go to a city with majority agreeing but that majority are low quality contributors, then we should not go to that city. In my opinion, we should not stop equality and openess, because what makes any smart or stupid contribution with value is that all participants/users/people can read/understand it. For Example, Native English speakers may think that they are best contributors but they are wrong, because people chosen the language to be used with no smart reason. Another Example, many new technology seem smart in the beginning but in the future, it can be the opposite , however, what makes it smart is the users/customers that paid for such stupid technology, because users had less organisation contribution but they are the most financial contribution. I like a great statement written: If you are the smartest person in the room then you are in the wrong room. So it is best to be open in the world without rooms, so joining with equality can be best development strategy. In my opinion, the smartest non-profit-organization when deciding for meeting-issues needs to consider equally all participants and users without looking into evaluating work contributions or into evaluating financial contributions, or into evaluating benefits, or etc. AB On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 5:52 AM, S Moonesamy wrote: > Hi Melinda, > At 19:39 15-06-2016, Melinda Shore wrote: > >> I'm unclear on the relevance of *any* of this to the points I >> > > Ok. > > raised. But I'll tell you one thing for sure: I am disturbed >> by the extent to which we're an organization in which someone >> can participate meaningfully while being remote when we're >> talking about Singapore and the extent we're an organization >> in which someone needs to attend meetings to build relationships >> and move work forward the rest of the time. Seriously, this >> needs to stop. >> > > I am trying to understand the above. I found two points: > > (a) someone can participate meaningfully while being remote > > (b) someone needs to attend meetings to build relationships > and move work forward the rest of the time > > I could not understand the "this needs to stop". Is it the extent to > which someone needs to attend meetings (please see (b)) which needs to stop? > > Regards, > S. Moonesamy > _______________________________________________ > diversity mailing list > diversity@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity > --001a1147a0209f6d2d05359fc71a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi=20 S. Moonesamy,

I did not understand some lines in both conversation, = and sorry if it is long email,

I think I understood the issue raised= , that a participant with low technical contribution should not be equally = considered as a participant with high quality, or what is argued is when we= decide to go to a city (ex. singapore or paris, etc.) if few high quality = contributors cannot meet then we should change, or when we decide to go to = a city with majority agreeing but that majority are low quality contributor= s, then we should not go to that city. In my opinion, we should not stop eq= uality and openess, because what makes any smart or stupid contribution wit= h value is that all participants/users/people can read/understand it.
F= or Example, Native English speakers may think that they are best contributo= rs but they are wrong, because people chosen the language to be used with n= o smart reason. Another Example, many new technology seem smart in the begi= nning but in the future, it can be the opposite , however, what makes it sm= art is the users/customers that paid for such stupid technology, because us= ers had less organisation contribution but they are the most financial cont= ribution.=C2=A0

I like a great statement written: If you= are the smartest person in the room then you are in the wrong room. So it = is best to be open in the world without rooms, so joining with equality can= be best development strategy. In my opinion, the smartest non-profit-organ= ization when deciding for meeting-issues needs to consider equally all part= icipants and users without looking into evaluating work contributions or in= to evaluating financial contributions, or into evaluating benefits, or etc.=

AB

On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 5:52 AM, S Moonesamy <= sm+ietf@elandsys.com> wrote:
Hi Melinda,
At 19:39 15-06-2016, Melinda Shore wrote:
I'm unclear on the relevance of *any* of this to the points I

 Ok.

raised.=C2=A0 But I'll tell you one thing for sure:=C2=A0 I am disturbe= d
by the extent to which we're an organization in which someone
can participate meaningfully while being remote when we're
talking about Singapore and the extent we're an organization
in which someone needs to attend meetings to build relationships
and move work forward the rest of the time.=C2=A0 Seriously, this
needs to stop.

 I am trying to understand the above.=C2=A0 I found two points:

=C2=A0 (a) someone can participate meaningfully while being remote

=C2=A0 (b) someone needs to attend meetings to build relationships
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 and move work forward the rest of the time

 I could not understand the "this needs to stop".=C2=A0 Is it the = extent to which someone needs to attend meetings (please see (b)) which nee= ds to stop?

Regards,
S. Moonesamy
_______________________________________________
diversity mailing list
diversity@ietf.org<= /a>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity

--001a1147a0209f6d2d05359fc71a-- From nobody Sun Jun 19 04:31:51 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7147712D10D for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 04:31:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kV3YLnLbSCnB for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 04:31:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22e.google.com (mail-qk0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8321712D107 for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 04:31:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id a186so131454482qkf.0 for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 04:31:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=X7ZtmR/2xHXLJPqD7vpSRQorb9uBibUpzauCwZRLFGY=; b=PDvtvPeXx2KkCtldt/zoFdbYkTR12GuKDSBAS5XwTCFHDZG6s2xCxNScFKiQSujdGE 0e9Ieww0hOLBtD8tghoGex2MxvI8yWMwPRcn3aSk/hZ4y75NSQSRw6cKtHM5bTNCzO1L 7C54BEIOk3tsB7Jp2ku5DPeFF6+cwHEScLNnBAKHaPXNnokQYrTE8H7pyEAngRRatMZH ixEpwxrikMuotAEBfmNx7lYeL/PtGOeCTRiXpnzgVsOOYfbDwlJuff9ymPMogTjiWVJc V9JTo4oOljgBytE0aBmOE+kel+Ee0nRMyptP79qyNMQ3AyIfounelz3vYHq2fXvgFHBF fF0Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=X7ZtmR/2xHXLJPqD7vpSRQorb9uBibUpzauCwZRLFGY=; b=FQ0GLX5TBTPdvoaWEDoBPb/GrZvNNqJC1+b47eDFfoAAC+bWzvbWhUZAZfcDHHRk7B OnA98yFTSNjSNBqjoo0oFYBRJrBEPd7mhuoaEOcq9A/3HY9DJkv5DaMrrZgvjUs93rI9 Yq9/t6OZIZt9jk/Fz8aosZNaY36/TaJKay6d1cSXYWIvy7i+oS0el+dukND9a161KtAL EsSyCyeRKVq27UHAzhrLR4uWtbIfuqim7bk5PQpeDKoDJ2HpPrpFJ5VL7a8aJ0yQw8ha hpDe848tBbF/2SHCwj1nPUNA6Px4lZjqZWpc+eBCPay4NQUdo2GawtAaCczMc5sxRq6A eCEw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tJfCk1rgeuL2YC0O4RWM86V6TvG+e7fuMX+SWess0DcLMlwdTdc348JYhsx2vhF10B+zq8+76JQcaFfdw== X-Received: by 10.200.36.200 with SMTP id t8mr14624190qtt.64.1466335905663; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 04:31:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.84.37 with HTTP; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 04:31:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20160608135632.20063.81792.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6d8e2bb4-e41c-5cf7-18a3-d6eac6e9a13f@gmail.com> <0c54dab2-89cc-6d0f-c8c7-a2a65249d04d@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <6597503E-AB88-4A89-BF86-57B06E7C8FD3@consulintel.es> <0848b990-dec1-78e9-7845-1f5b683a49cd@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <4DD051C3-841E-45EE-82F0-8AF4991685A7@consulintel.es> <72313874-f19d-1a0e-0ffa-cc34e380bb8a@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <128d6b02-bbf9-3afb-7353-4f411a2eb8c2@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <6.2.5.6.2.20160615173304.0bd677c8@resistor.net> <3d180fde-057a-aa7b-0483-ae8429a16e1d@dcrocker.net> From: Abdussalam Baryun Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 13:31:45 +0200 Message-ID: To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1140501ec7526605359feea3 Archived-At: Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" , Melinda Shore , Dave Crocker Subject: Re: [Diversity] Moving to meeting attendance NOT required (was: Re: Consideration for participation) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 11:31:49 -0000 --001a1140501ec7526605359feea3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 There is no doubt that being in meetings is critical for the organisation. Meetings is very important, so choosing the venue is important as well. The issue is who are attending the meeting (new users, new place, et.) can make it more important. AB On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 3:46 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF < spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, Dave, > > On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 5:09 AM, Dave Crocker wrote: > >> On 6/15/2016 10:39 PM, Melinda Shore wrote: >> >>> I am disturbed >>> by the extent to which we're an organization in which someone >>> can participate meaningfully while being remote when we're >>> talking about Singapore and the extent we're an organization >>> in which someone needs to attend meetings to build relationships >>> and move work forward the rest of the time. Seriously, this >>> needs to stop. >>> >> >> >> If we made that stop, what would things look like? I think we do not >> have a detailed, shared description of the alternative environment that >> would exist. Most folk probably have their own sense of what it might be, >> but we're missing s shared specification. >> >> Similarly, how to we get there? What steps do we need to take, to move >> to this better environment? > > > I'm not the Melinda Whisperer, but I thought Melinda meant inconsistency > between discussions about whether being in Singapore in person is critical, > versus discussions about whether being at any meeting in general in person > is critical. > > But she can correct me if I misthought. > > Spencer > > _______________________________________________ > diversity mailing list > diversity@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity > > --001a1140501ec7526605359feea3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There is no doubt that being in meetings is critical = for the organisation. Meetings is very important, so choosing the venue is = important as well. The issue is who are attending the meeting (new users, n= ew place, et.) can make it more important.=C2=A0

AB
=

On Thu, Jun 16, 2= 016 at 3:46 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@g= mail.com> wrote:
Hi, Dave,

On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 5:09 AM, Dave Crocker <dhc@dcro= cker.net> wrote:
On 6/15/= 2016 10:39 PM, Melinda Shore wrote:
I am disturbed
by the extent to which we're an organization in which someone
can participate meaningfully while being remote when we're
talking about Singapore and the extent we're an organization
in which someone needs to attend meetings to build relationships
and move work forward the rest of the time.=C2=A0 Seriously, this
needs to stop.


If we made that stop, what would things look like?=C2=A0 I think we do not = have a detailed, shared description of the alternative environment that wou= ld exist.=C2=A0 Most folk probably have their own sense of what it might be= , but we're missing s shared specification.

Similarly, how to we get there?=C2=A0 What steps do we need to take, to mov= e to this better environment?

I'= m not the Melinda Whisperer, but I thought Melinda meant inconsistency betw= een discussions about whether being in Singapore in person is critical, ver= sus discussions about whether being at any meeting in general in person is = critical.

But she can correct me if I misthought.<= /div>

Spe= ncer=C2=A0

_______________________________________________
diversity mailing list
diversity@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity

--001a1140501ec7526605359feea3-- From nobody Sun Jun 19 06:29:10 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18DA912B016 for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 06:29:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.527 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.527 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=opendkim.org header.b=MQCaJGA0; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=elandsys.com header.b=uzQi1oUM Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tbFI2RC-pD0v for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 06:29:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2E6A12B00D for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 06:29:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.elandsys.com ([197.227.82.31]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u5JDSpB0027681 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 19 Jun 2016 06:29:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1466342944; x=1466429344; bh=aJiJItJSyDOPyWqp7zMzZnRYZXc1SyHD8ErlKv2XDuc=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=MQCaJGA0aS5QZQbbqvm8unR6HBFKWXG1MpIjT0279b+58GxzMS3Abc7+tA8K3LahQ xHB2nsosLiMQiWAgfK0AdvKDsO5mcdmUMmqyGlp15prdcyLhUeDIVgh0q4avwXliFI hEXX9Kn2oFpQJxuzKAn0Q11ctsJUagtxrcVxANTE= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1466342944; x=1466429344; i=@elandsys.com; bh=aJiJItJSyDOPyWqp7zMzZnRYZXc1SyHD8ErlKv2XDuc=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=uzQi1oUMykHHQRDKfx64M1oVrbEBzTAsvn1yLP85Qu8np3mQd/4qWKGm/Tao5Pm3J BC39IXzS+86Rtnfok5nzWw63qZ6jyzr/03adYfRcQ/HSJTv9qgyrH8cnpswCJK+Aiz raYfL6QrPBT+jKcjsWZeNNq5W+xqcqpdXkY6UJ7w= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20160619060038.06d6d240@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 06:25:38 -0700 To: Abdussalam Baryun From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: References: <20160608135632.20063.81792.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6d8e2bb4-e41c-5cf7-18a3-d6eac6e9a13f@gmail.com> <0c54dab2-89cc-6d0f-c8c7-a2a65249d04d@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <6597503E-AB88-4A89-BF86-57B06E7C8FD3@consulintel.es> <0848b990-dec1-78e9-7845-1f5b683a49cd@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <4DD051C3-841E-45EE-82F0-8AF4991685A7@consulintel.es> <72313874-f19d-1a0e-0ffa-cc34e380bb8a@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <128d6b02-bbf9-3afb-7353-4f411a2eb8c2@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <6.2.5.6.2.20160615173304.0bd677c8@resistor.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20160615203654.0b7b9020@elandnews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] Consideration for participation X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 13:29:10 -0000 Hi Abdussalam, At 04:20 19-06-2016, Abdussalam Baryun wrote: >I did not understand some lines in both conversation, and sorry if >it is long email, There is a message from Spencer Dawkins at http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/diversity/current/msg00808.html The last part of that message might explain the discussions. >I think I understood the issue raised, that a participant with low >technical contribution should not be equally considered as a >participant with high quality, or what is argued is when we decide >to go to a city (ex. singapore or paris, etc.) if few high quality >contributors cannot meet then we should change, or when we decide to >go to a city with majority agreeing but that majority are low >quality contributors, then we should not go to that city. In my >opinion, we should not stop equality and openess, because what makes My comment was about whether it would be appropriate of me to tell a person who cannot attend a meeting because he/she would not be treated the same as some other group of persons that he/she can participate remotely. I do not believe that it is appropriate. Regards, S. Moonesamy From nobody Sun Jun 19 07:36:42 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DA6E12D0CC for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 07:36:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fsSEasF5Mp7b for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 07:36:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x229.google.com (mail-qk0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F323E12D091 for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 07:36:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x229.google.com with SMTP id a186so134283204qkf.0 for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 07:36:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=S70o/Z9pDqPX9er58VF9jqkRgGYy3h/lkpOrUnbLJyM=; b=VWI3jMtjKzUimOUh9t7uRwST06Q6S8GDJZXTLLftFhCtHjKHZoqdbE0UgA4eaN4DrG eCUBj+RIeGF3KbsEpN5FhHe+/JCNGvWPjDfjO/5472mpEiXHpLs/j02MwdSFpD0TVG6d 6siRUXWuKeCgtJnBchFAjoy18WldaQMcsG387IGJUk3xrSYpKhxF2VSV5RCMn4wwURyM zO+itgOTm8CeI/MRwCPsXCn06NKBWRaJKZLUIvRJQyOUWSISqYtS+zCo2z5DUKgiZi2b eTPGTQ+qbuWcFuYiNlsCDuYcfAThuLUXijef5H3875IE1svs06TgXBCxcQ+q+qwruysf jXFQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=S70o/Z9pDqPX9er58VF9jqkRgGYy3h/lkpOrUnbLJyM=; b=a/LMKp6DHYyxz9V7pghrWI3kWowNfrOUtV+6hBKWqx9r94kQTBYQv0B4JFm2YJ4YGX FZILrBZK67+XalQnM1Q1LsaRNag33nECum0Y97WnUCO7sNruZZhaLMAENb8HQh7Gna3G 7ymIbjwoWl521ksknf/D8J7FhohiF6YbY/vqr1ZpNnhhhbL/dfIW1POfUssBr3DrAM9e PqO6g86dMGiy0GuaJ3WBpDWlfcNbP13LmRwzZx31ujOz4nYadPjop0PwunGFD/TwJnCi TblIU6grmooy9QjPOZIdZx9BWqZaamvVI3CaZLv59VyJAM5EZ+dNC1M1zAfPHQjO2xMM hA/Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tKoACuaHg8CYbj2ZifuwQYkp4GEeQg9OX8rLkT8GlL52XFN29Sm1VF/pL9IKZh8dtXUEbZYGk3de5C38Q== X-Received: by 10.55.39.146 with SMTP id n140mr16045648qkn.10.1466346997045; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 07:36:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.84.37 with HTTP; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 07:36:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20160619060038.06d6d240@elandnews.com> References: <20160608135632.20063.81792.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6d8e2bb4-e41c-5cf7-18a3-d6eac6e9a13f@gmail.com> <0c54dab2-89cc-6d0f-c8c7-a2a65249d04d@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <6597503E-AB88-4A89-BF86-57B06E7C8FD3@consulintel.es> <0848b990-dec1-78e9-7845-1f5b683a49cd@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <4DD051C3-841E-45EE-82F0-8AF4991685A7@consulintel.es> <72313874-f19d-1a0e-0ffa-cc34e380bb8a@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <128d6b02-bbf9-3afb-7353-4f411a2eb8c2@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <6.2.5.6.2.20160615173304.0bd677c8@resistor.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20160615203654.0b7b9020@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160619060038.06d6d240@elandnews.com> From: Abdussalam Baryun Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 16:36:36 +0200 Message-ID: To: S Moonesamy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c09593ee05ecc0535a28374 Archived-At: Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Diversity] Consideration for participation X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 14:36:40 -0000 --94eb2c09593ee05ecc0535a28374 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi S. Moonesamy, I think no one should tell any to be remote or present, it is the decision of the participant to find what is best. However, the organisation needs to do their best to treat both remote and attended participants the same. They are not the same in their advantages and disadvantages but still both are needed by the organisation but I don't believe that there is a problem if most often attendees become remote participants once a year. Overall, IMHO it is normal that many cannot attend IETF meetings while their are reasons, but what is not normal that few attendees cannot become remote participants once a year while the remote-facilities are available. AB On Sun, Jun 19, 2016 at 3:25 PM, S Moonesamy wrote: > Hi Abdussalam, > At 04:20 19-06-2016, Abdussalam Baryun wrote: > >> I did not understand some lines in both conversation, and sorry if it is >> long email, >> > > There is a message from Spencer Dawkins at > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/diversity/current/msg00808.html The > last part of that message might explain the discussions. > > I think I understood the issue raised, that a participant with low >> technical contribution should not be equally considered as a participant >> with high quality, or what is argued is when we decide to go to a city (ex. >> singapore or paris, etc.) if few high quality >> contributors cannot meet then we should change, or when we decide to go >> to a city with majority agreeing but that majority are low quality >> contributors, then we should not go to that city. In my opinion, we should >> not stop equality and openess, because what makes >> > > My comment was about whether it would be appropriate of me to tell a > person who cannot attend a meeting because he/she would not be treated the > same as some other group of persons that he/she can participate remotely. > I do not believe that it is appropriate. > > Regards, > S. Moonesamy > > --94eb2c09593ee05ecc0535a28374 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi=20 S. Moonesamy,

I think no one should tell any to be remote or p= resent, it is the decision of the participant to find what is best. However= , the organisation needs to do their best to treat both remote and attended= participants the same. They are not the same in their advantages and disad= vantages but still both are needed by the organisation but I don't beli= eve that there is a problem if most often attendees become remote participa= nts once a year. Overall, IMHO it is normal that many cannot attend IETF me= etings while their are reasons, but what is not normal that few attendees c= annot become remote participants once a year while the remote-facilities ar= e available.

AB



On Sun, Jun 19, 2016 at 3:25 PM, S= Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com> wrote:
Hi Abdussalam,
At 04:20 19-06-2016, Abdussalam Baryun wrote:
I did not understand some lines in both conversation, and sorry if it is lo= ng email,

 There is a message from Spencer Dawkins at http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/diversity/current/msg00808= .html The last part of that message might explain the discussions.

I think I understood the issue raised, that a participant with low technica= l contribution should not be equally considered as a participant with high = quality, or what is argued is when we decide to go to a city (ex. singapore= or paris, etc.) if few high quality
contributors cannot meet then we should change, or when we decide to go to = a city with majority agreeing but that majority are low quality contributor= s, then we should not go to that city. In my opinion, we should not stop eq= uality and openess, because what makes

My comment was about whether it would be appropriate of me to tell a person= who cannot attend a meeting because he/she would not be treated the same a= s some other group of persons that he/she can participate remotely.=C2=A0 I= do not believe that it is appropriate.

Regards,
S. Moonesamy


--94eb2c09593ee05ecc0535a28374-- From nobody Thu Jun 23 13:46:08 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EA2B12D7DA for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 13:46:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 4.117 X-Spam-Level: **** X-Spam-Status: No, score=4.117 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS=3.335, SPF_FAIL=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id asbD-yZgsy8b for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 13:46:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sout.wanadoo.co.uk (sout1.wanadoo.co.uk [193.252.22.95]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E02F212D794 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 13:46:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ytmnp.com ([138.75.189.73]) by mwinf5d07 with ME id ALlH1t0021bTWgA03Lm0ZH; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 22:46:03 +0200 X-ME-Helo: ytmnp.com X-ME-Auth: bXdpbHNvbjEwQG9yYW5nZS5uZXQ= X-ME-Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 22:46:03 +0200 X-ME-IP: 138.75.189.73 From: ccnx-bounces@ccnx.org To: "Abdussalam Baryun" , "diversity" Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 23:45:57 +0300 Message-ID: <0000b33c42ea$93a19400$61914b24$@queuefull.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_2004586C.0511AC1E" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 15.0 Thread-Index: AdHABBwge+k0XaPFy7imaSno3mwupQ== Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: Subject: [Diversity] your opinion matters X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 20:46:06 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_2004586C.0511AC1E Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I was just wondering about your opinion on that stuff, please take a look and tell me what you think Warmest regards, ccnx-bounces@ccnx.org ------=_NextPart_000_0001_2004586C.0511AC1E Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<= span lang=3DEN-US>Hello,

 

I was just wondering about your opinion on that stuff, p= lease take a look and tell me what you think http://phicihufra.mblvid.com/aewgc

 <= /span>

Warmest regards, ccn= x-bounces@ccnx.org

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