From dix-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 06 06:44:03 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EYiwN-0004l2-4L; Sun, 06 Nov 2005 06:44:03 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EYiwL-0004iO-Rb for dix@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 06 Nov 2005 06:44:01 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA21807 for ; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 06:43:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from marlin.sxip.com ([199.60.48.20] helo=mail1.sxip.com ident=root) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EYjBj-0008J8-8t for dix@ietf.org; Sun, 06 Nov 2005 06:59:56 -0500 Received: from [192.168.0.3] (84-12-179-109.dyn.gotadsl.co.uk [84.12.179.109] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mail1.sxip.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id jA6BhWl1038872 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 03:43:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from merrells@sxip.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <80E23CC4-7524-48C4-B2B9-E97162F7C474@sxip.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: dix@ietf.org From: John Merrells Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 11:43:26 +0000 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.60.48.141 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [dix] DIX Social during the Vancouver IETF X-BeenThere: dix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Digital Identity Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: dix-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dix-bounces@ietf.org Hello, Here are the details of the DIX social to be held during the IETF meeting in Vancouver. Date: Wednesday November 9th Time: 7:30+ Place: The Crimelab Restaurant Agenda: Drinks and snacks. There are some handy links below. I'll be in Vancouver from this evening. Email/Call me if you need further information... John +1-415-244-5808 Resources: The Crimelab Restaurant, 1280 West Pender St. http://maps.google.com/maps?q=1280+West+pender+st, +vancouver&iwloc=A&hl=en The Westin Bayshore, 1601 Bayshore Drive http://maps.google.com/maps?q=1601+Bayshore+Drive, +vancouver&iwloc=A&hl=en _______________________________________________ dix mailing list dix@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dix From dix-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 06 11:05:00 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EYn0u-0001o0-1w; Sun, 06 Nov 2005 11:05:00 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EYn0s-0001ni-F1 for dix@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 06 Nov 2005 11:04:58 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA04089 for ; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 11:04:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EYnGJ-0005oq-6s for dix@ietf.org; Sun, 06 Nov 2005 11:20:55 -0500 Received: from localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F1B02596BF; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 17:04:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07184-02; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 17:03:56 +0100 (CET) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74EDE2596CB; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 17:03:55 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 07:37:50 -0800 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: John Merrells , dix@ietf.org Subject: Re: [dix] DIX Social during the Vancouver IETF Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <80E23CC4-7524-48C4-B2B9-E97162F7C474@sxip.com> References: <80E23CC4-7524-48C4-B2B9-E97162F7C474@sxip.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.3 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cd26b070c2577ac175cd3a6d878c6248 Cc: X-BeenThere: dix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Digital Identity Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1603256418==" Sender: dix-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dix-bounces@ietf.org --===============1603256418== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="==========CBFE3E375CA36106F8DD==========" --==========CBFE3E375CA36106F8DD========== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John, this is the first messages I've seen to the DIX list since I joined. Would you mind sending out a couple of messages indicating what you want to = talk about on Wednesday? In particular: > Date: Wednesday November 9th > Time: 3:10-4:10 > Place: Capilano Room, The Westin Bayshore > Agenda: Discussion of DIX within the IETF. (Process. Goals. > Participants. Etc.) based on the information you've sent out - ZERO - about what DIX is, what=20 you think you can achieve here, and who in the IETF community should be=20 concerned, I have absolutely no choice but to skip the meeting based on "no = information available". Not that I could show up anyway; it's in collision with the following=20 meetings: 1510-1610 Afternoon Session II Oak GEN pesci Process Evolution Consideration for the IETF BOF Salon 1 INT pana Protocol for Carrying Authentication for Network... Salon 2/3 RTG isis IS-IS for IP Internets WG Salon C SEC mobike IKEv4 Mobility and Multihoming WG Cypress TSV fecframe FEC over Transport Framework BOF Salon A/B TSV xcon Centralized Conferencing WG and I have to be at PESCI. Harald Harald --On 6. november 2005 11:43 +0000 John Merrells wrote: > > Hello, > > Here are the details of the DIX social to be held during the > IETF meeting in Vancouver. > > Date: Wednesday November 9th > Time: 7:30+ > Place: The Crimelab Restaurant > Agenda: Drinks and snacks. > > There are some handy links below. I'll be in Vancouver from > this evening. Email/Call me if you need further information... --==========CBFE3E375CA36106F8DD========== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) iD8DBQFDbiNOOMj+2+WY0F4RAmvKAJ9xgBCadNNVG+gFR1LHYwJYI/DKGwCfbfi1 gW+yDbamyWImMW6ebfZTjxA= =056j -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==========CBFE3E375CA36106F8DD==========-- --===============1603256418== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ dix mailing list dix@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dix --===============1603256418==-- From dix-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 06 11:32:59 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EYnRz-0006mf-T3; Sun, 06 Nov 2005 11:32:59 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EYnRz-0006ma-A4 for dix@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 06 Nov 2005 11:32:59 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA05226 for ; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 11:32:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.184.196]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EYnhP-0006OX-Im for dix@ietf.org; Sun, 06 Nov 2005 11:48:56 -0500 Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 68so334128wra for ; Sun, 06 Nov 2005 08:32:54 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=pnmLrvK4Go4R9OSNp3+JdsUyPnklgboInYfHXbYexVc8XQuOafvaAKvdXcM5E+my3GSI1I7o2tL6YhYGGAiDDXZUUMY/6QVEd4uCzHD6EMXfHrf6ji0eRWeAj/bXfN0fEQYELAHtH86uHi/a+vYYC9MJCt5pyRQ157WUmTT9010= Received: by 10.54.150.3 with SMTP id x3mr3113147wrd; Sun, 06 Nov 2005 08:32:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.95.19 with HTTP; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 08:32:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <7b297ea20511060832q1c1ef124j7fdb76241bf7cd74@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 08:32:54 -0800 From: "D'Andrew \"Dave\" Thompson" To: dix@ietf.org Subject: [dix] DIX Social during the Vancouver IETF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: dix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Digital Identity Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: dix-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dix-bounces@ietf.org John, +1 re: Harald's statements. I am anxious to participate since a protocol like this would be very important to a couple of new projects I am working on. It would certainly make sense to work closely with this standards group and assist in what ever way I can. I am willing to take a trip to Vancouver (that's how interested I am) but would like to know what I'm in for. Thank you for your thoughts. Dave -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ D'Andrew "Dave" Thompson http://dathompson.blogspot.com _______________________________________________ dix mailing list dix@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dix From dix-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 06 13:32:47 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EYpJv-0003qL-M7; Sun, 06 Nov 2005 13:32:47 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EYpJt-0003qG-S9 for dix@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 06 Nov 2005 13:32:45 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA13355 for ; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 13:32:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from marlin.sxip.com ([199.60.48.20] helo=mail1.sxip.com ident=root) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EYpZK-0001JA-Rp for dix@ietf.org; Sun, 06 Nov 2005 13:48:44 -0500 Received: from [192.168.6.246] (dhcp246.sxip.com [192.168.6.246]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail1.sxip.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id jA6IWcw9046387 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 10:32:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dick@sxip.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: References: <80E23CC4-7524-48C4-B2B9-E97162F7C474@sxip.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dick Hardt Subject: Re: [dix] DIX Social during the Vancouver IETF Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 10:32:23 -0800 To: dix@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.60.48.141 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10ba05e7e8a9aa6adb025f426bef3a30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: dix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Digital Identity Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: dix-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dix-bounces@ietf.org John just got on a plane, so I'll attempt to add some colour to the meeting. Here is the copy from a post about the meeting http://identity20.com/? p=39 There have been discussions amongst members of the IETF community about creating a Working Group to consider protocols for exchange of digital identity information. The purpose of any Working Group is to bring all interested parties together to work on common standards for interoperation. Everyone interested in making Identity 2.0 a reality should be involved. To this end, at the next IETF, there is to be a process meeting to discuss IETF procedures and a social event for building community support for the effort. There is a short video of my talk at Web 2.0 here if you would like know what I think Identity 2.0 is: http://www.identity20.com/media/WEB2_2005/ And there is mailing lists and discussion rooted from here: http://www.identitygang.org/ -- Dick On 6-Nov-05, at 7:37 AM, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > John, > > this is the first messages I've seen to the DIX list since I joined. > > Would you mind sending out a couple of messages indicating what you > want to talk about on Wednesday? > > In particular: > >> Date: Wednesday November 9th >> Time: 3:10-4:10 >> Place: Capilano Room, The Westin Bayshore >> Agenda: Discussion of DIX within the IETF. (Process. Goals. >> Participants. Etc.) > > based on the information you've sent out - ZERO - about what DIX > is, what you think you can achieve here, and who in the IETF > community should be concerned, I have absolutely no choice but to > skip the meeting based on "no information available". > > Not that I could show up anyway; it's in collision with the > following meetings: > > 1510-1610 Afternoon Session II > > Oak GEN pesci Process Evolution Consideration for the IETF BOF > Salon 1 INT pana Protocol for Carrying Authentication for Network... > Salon 2/3 RTG isis IS-IS for IP Internets WG > Salon C SEC mobike IKEv4 Mobility and Multihoming WG > Cypress TSV fecframe FEC over Transport Framework BOF > Salon A/B TSV xcon Centralized Conferencing WG > > and I have to be at PESCI. > > Harald > > > Harald > > --On 6. november 2005 11:43 +0000 John Merrells > wrote: > >> >> Hello, >> >> Here are the details of the DIX social to be held during the >> IETF meeting in Vancouver. >> >> Date: Wednesday November 9th >> Time: 7:30+ >> Place: The Crimelab Restaurant >> Agenda: Drinks and snacks. >> >> There are some handy links below. I'll be in Vancouver from >> this evening. Email/Call me if you need further information... > > > > _______________________________________________ > dix mailing list > dix@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dix _______________________________________________ dix mailing list dix@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dix From dix-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 06 13:46:45 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EYpXR-0006d4-2e; Sun, 06 Nov 2005 13:46:45 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EYpXP-0006ci-Gm for dix@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 06 Nov 2005 13:46:43 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA14110 for ; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 13:46:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from zeke.ecotroph.net ([69.31.8.124]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EYpmq-0001dg-V9 for dix@ietf.org; Sun, 06 Nov 2005 14:02:42 -0500 Received: from dul1shollenbl1 ([::ffff:209.52.111.221]) (AUTH: LOGIN sah, SSL: TLSv1/SSLv3,128bits,RC4-MD5) by zeke.ecotroph.net with esmtp; Sun, 06 Nov 2005 13:46:12 -0500 id 01588068.436E4F74.00002CC1 From: "Scott Hollenbeck" To: dix@ietf.org Subject: RE: [dix] DIX Social during the Vancouver IETF Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 13:46:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Thread-Index: AcXjAXP3Z4DBMrbNS1+iwWrvs/V+IQAACqOw Message-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: dix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Digital Identity Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: dix-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dix-bounces@ietf.org I need to make something clear about the "process" meeting. It's NOT intended to be an open meeting for anyone that cares to attend. I offered to meet with John and a small number of other people to talk about how the IETF works and how the DIX topic might need to be tailored to fit into the IETF. The room I've reserved for that conversation will hold no more than 10 people. I've asked John to manage the invitations to ensure that we stay below that number. -Scott- _______________________________________________ dix mailing list dix@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dix From dix-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 09 18:04:55 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZyzv-000611-Qc; Wed, 09 Nov 2005 18:04:55 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZyzu-0005x8-5s for dix@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Nov 2005 18:04:54 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA16403 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 18:04:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from mxout7.cac.washington.edu ([140.142.32.178]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EZzFz-0005GD-AW for dix@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Nov 2005 18:21:32 -0500 Received: from smtp.washington.edu (smtp.washington.edu [140.142.32.139]) by mxout7.cac.washington.edu (8.13.5+UW05.10/8.13.5+UW05.09) with ESMTP id jA9N4okc018766 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 15:04:50 -0800 X-Auth-Received: from [209.52.106.152] (pp106-152.bctel.ca [209.52.106.152]) (authenticated authid=rlmorgan) by smtp.washington.edu (8.13.5+UW05.10/8.13.5+UW05.09) with ESMTP id jA9N4nI1022683 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 15:04:49 -0800 Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 15:05:14 -0800 (PST) From: "RL 'Bob' Morgan" X-X-Sender: rlmorgan@perf.cac.washington.edu To: IETF DIX list Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Uwash-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIII, Probability=7%, Report='__CT 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __PORN_PHRASE_15_0 0, __SANE_MSGID 0' X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c3a18ef96977fc9bcc21a621cbf1174b Subject: [dix] thoughts on "identity" and IETF X-BeenThere: dix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Digital Identity Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: dix-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dix-bounces@ietf.org I have been somewhat involved in recent discussions regarding "identity" (see http://www.identitygang.org/ and a zillion other blogs and links), as well as a long-time IETF participant, so let me toss out a brief personal view of what's going on here in hopes it may provide context useful for some folks. Let me say up front that I don't necessarily agree with all the positions I describe below, but am trying to express what many people are saying and thinking. Many protocols developed in the IETF have served the needs of what Dick Hardt calls "Identity 1.0", which might be characterized less flamboyantly as "enterprise identity management". This term includes several rather different technologies and processes, all in support of the ability for the owners of services to control who does what with their computing resources. I use the word "enterprise" above intentionally, to reflect the fact that traditionally the parties with interest and ability to control access to resources have been organizations, usually large ones. So, for example, the domain of use of the IETF's LDAP protocol is large directories containing entries for many users, operated by IT staff in organizations that have an interest in the users whose info is in those entries, and the applications that use those directories. The domain of use of the IETF's Kerberos protocol is similarly organizations with an interest in secure authentication to a set of apps relying on an organizational KDC. Similar broad-brush characterizations could be made of PKIX, TLS, SASL, features like HTTP Basic/Digest authentication, probably other protocols and features. Note that the scope of "identity" here includes several things. One is maintenance of information about a person (or other entity), including not just userid and password but potentially lots of other information relevant to authorization, contact, perhaps other purposes. Another is authentication, ie how a service knows "the identity" of a client. Another is exchange of identity information between parties, both at authentication time and at other times. Out in the world most people's experience of the Internet is of course the Web, and most people's experience of "Identity 1.0" has been via account setup and login to a vast array of web-based services managed by organizations large (mostly) and small. There have been some non-IETF standard/spec activities that attempt to address the widely-observed usability problem of people having too damn many usernames/passwords to remember, as well as security problems based on that stuff. Perhaps the main one is the OASIS-published SAML standard, which specifies how to do web sign-on and attribute exchange. A somewhat similar activity is WS-Federation, part of the WS-* spec set. These have been called "Identity 1.5" because they permit some organizations to rely on other organizations' identity management services, but the use cases driving the designs are still organization-oriented. So is there something missing in the above stuff, some new requirements requiring new stuff, ie "Identity 2.0"? I think the people who say there is are motivated by the huge number of new things that have happened on the web in the last few years. The center of this is the blogging phenomenon. Maybe 20 million people are now blogging. They're doing other things like putting lots of photos online at Flickr, keeping their bookmarks on del.icio.us, tracking tags on technorati, and zillions of other examples. They are composing these services in myriad ways to create new services. In sociological terms they are creating online identities for themselves that they feel much more attachment to than their organizational account, even their "my.foo.com" page at one of the traditional portal sites. In Identity 1.0 terms they are all becoming, or have an interest in becoming, both service providers and identity providers, that is, they have an interest in protecting their resources (in the canonical case of reducing blog spam), and in leveraging their personal info to their millions of peers. So now in addition to the tens or hundreds of thousands of institutions with identity interest, there are tens of millions of individuals. Many people are trying to figure out what they need and respond to it. The SXIP technology is one among those, others are OpenID, LID, Passel, and no doubt many others. For the most part these approaches reject traditional identity management protocols and systems; whether they should or should not is one of the big questions. A key point is that the individual interest in identity is much more about expression, ie ease of sharing and discovery, than it is in control (ie, fancy security). Another key point is individual control, the same sort of control people feel over their personal domain name and its site, or their blog. Even people who aren't radically anti-corporate like to feel in charge of their own stuff. That's all I have time for now ... - RL "Bob" _______________________________________________ dix mailing list dix@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dix From dix-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 10 11:55:23 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EaFhr-00053w-5Q; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 11:55:23 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EaFhq-00053d-3n for dix@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 11:55:22 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA16233 for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 11:54:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from corp-fw-main.jabber.com ([207.182.164.14] helo=wrk187.corp.jabber.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EaFy3-00080S-84 for dix@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 12:12:10 -0500 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wrk187.corp.jabber.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 280B54805BF; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 09:55:03 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <43737B66.90709@jabber.org> Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 09:55:02 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Macintosh/20051025) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "RL 'Bob' Morgan" , dix@ietf.org Subject: Re: [dix] thoughts on "identity" and IETF References: In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cd3fc8e909678b38737fc606dec187f0 Cc: X-BeenThere: dix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Digital Identity Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0090621147==" Sender: dix-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dix-bounces@ietf.org This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --===============0090621147== Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms090903020008080301040708" This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms090903020008080301040708 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob, thanks for the context. RL 'Bob' Morgan wrote: > In sociological terms they are creating > online identities for themselves that they feel much more attachment to > than their organizational account, even their "my.foo.com" page at one > of the traditional portal sites. In Identity 1.0 terms they are all > becoming, or have an interest in becoming, both service providers and > identity providers, that is, they have an interest in protecting their > resources (in the canonical case of reducing blog spam), and in > leveraging their personal info to their millions of peers. People are increasingly "amphibious" -- they've got one foot in the old world of real-life identity and one foot in the new world of online identity. As more identity moves online, we need to find ways to express, share, manage, and control it. SAML uses the term "assertion" and I think we're talking about the same kind of idea in a personal context -- who gets to make assertions about who I am online? Perhaps part of the frustration with existing identity systems is that they do not put the individual in control (no fault of the existing identity systems, since as you point out individuals didn't have online identities back then). > So now in addition to the tens or hundreds of thousands of institutions > with identity interest, there are tens of millions of individuals. Many > people are trying to figure out what they need and respond to it. The > SXIP technology is one among those, others are OpenID, LID, Passel, and > no doubt many others. For the most part these approaches reject > traditional identity management protocols and systems; whether they > should or should not is one of the big questions. Well, probably much could be done with the existing public key infrastructure, but I note with sadness that very few people even on IETF lists digitally sign their emails. If even the hardcore bit-heads aren't using PKI, why should we expect anyone else to? > A key point is that > the individual interest in identity is much more about expression, ie > ease of sharing and discovery, than it is in control (ie, fancy > security). Another key point is individual control, the same sort of > control people feel over their personal domain name and its site, or > their blog. Even people who aren't radically anti-corporate like to > feel in charge of their own stuff. Yes, expressing your identity online, sharing it with others, managing it, and controlling its canonical expressions are important parts of what's happening. It seems to me that we need to really think about what each of these entails. For example: Part of expressing online identity may involve formulating a common language or flexible structure for capturing such assertions (which is already happening from the bottom up through Flickr, FOAF, tagging, and the like). Part of sharing online identity may involve figuring out how one can assert ownership over the information one shares (what some are calling "identity rights agreements", kind of a Creative Commons in reverse). Part of managing online identity may involve improving on the existing, informal process of registering with websites, known as "email based identification and authentication" (EBIA). Part of controlling online identity may involve explicitly tying assertions to individuals (PKI again?) and treating individuals as the canonical source of information about themselves (without implying that others cannot make assertions about individuals, naturally). These are all interesting topics. It's not clear to me what the IETF's role is here. Do we have engineering tasks to complete yet? (If so, which aspects are folks proposing to work on?) Are these more like research topics for the IRTF? Does identity work even belong in the IETF? I have opinions, but right now I'm just asking the questions. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre Jabber Software Foundation http://www.jabber.org/people/stpeter.shtml --------------ms090903020008080301040708 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIKdDCC BTYwggMeoAMCAQICAwGUqzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADB5MRAwDgYDVQQKEwdSb290IENBMR4w HAYDVQQLExVodHRwOi8vd3d3LmNhY2VydC5vcmcxIjAgBgNVBAMTGUNBIENlcnQgU2lnbmlu ZyBBdXRob3JpdHkxITAfBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWEnN1cHBvcnRAY2FjZXJ0Lm9yZzAeFw0wNTEw MjUyMjM4NDhaFw0wNjEwMjUyMjM4NDhaMGoxHTAbBgNVBAMTFEouIFBldGVyIFNhaW50LUFu ZHJlMSEwHwYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhJzdHBldGVyQGphYmJlci5vcmcxJjAkBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEW F2oucGV0ZXJAc2FpbnQtYW5kcmUuY29tMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKC AQEA1IwvV3ywawrPfb66pLs0KqIj5QKXYQ45EUlTzKp6iHeCQzd+Kr8AOO21dcs/s0VcQqno mVHDuqp0B+53Dp6Re66yc1x89U3HFFWw/HfLuAzbngoD9PmmSLaJsXGfO0PyXQPB5GVJfVnb 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1EatFq-0006Tk-KL; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 06:09:06 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EatFp-0006Sx-9i for dix@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 06:09:05 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA25817 for ; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 06:08:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from marlin.sxip.com ([199.60.48.20] helo=mail1.sxip.com ident=root) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EatWQ-00084G-3K for dix@ietf.org; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 06:26:15 -0500 Received: from [192.168.6.194] (dhcp194.sxip.com [192.168.6.194]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail1.sxip.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id jACB8mxN094915 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 03:08:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from merrells@sxip.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <367DBBC9-3C1C-4B30-A840-3B3F50A1FE06@sxip.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: dix@ietf.org From: John Merrells Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 03:08:45 -0800 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.60.48.141 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [dix] Report on DIX meeting X-BeenThere: dix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Digital Identity Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: dix-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dix-bounces@ietf.org There was a DIX meeting held during the 64th IETF in Vancouver. The meeting was about IETF process. The attendees were: Jim Sermersheim, Prasanta Behera, Kurt Zeilenga, Scott Hollenbeck, John Merrells, Dick Hardt, RL 'Bob' Morgan, and Ben Laurie. The topic of conversation was around the process of starting a standardization effort within the IETF. The conclusion was that a BOF meeting should be requested for the next IETF. In order for that request to be accepted we as a group need to do some preparation work. The first step will be to write a proposed charter for the group. I will endeavor to prepare a draft over the next few days and will present it to the list for discussion. There was also an enjoyable social event evening where we partook of some fine wines and snacks. John _______________________________________________ dix mailing list dix@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dix From dix-bounces@ietf.org Sat Nov 12 16:05:56 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Eb2ZQ-0001O8-F7; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 16:05:56 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Eb2ZN-0001Mx-VS for dix@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 16:05:55 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA23992 for ; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 16:05:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from brinza.cc.columbia.edu ([128.59.29.8] ident=cu41754) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Eb2q2-0005VK-W5 for dix@ietf.org; Sat, 12 Nov 2005 16:23:07 -0500 Received: from [18.100.0.94] (VPN-NINETY-FOUR.MIT.EDU [18.100.0.94]) (user=jaltman mech=PLAIN bits=0) by brinza.cc.columbia.edu (8.13.0/8.13.0) with ESMTP id jACL5aND029147 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 12 Nov 2005 16:05:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <437659AB.80109@secure-endpoints.com> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 13:07:55 -0800 From: Jeffrey Altman Organization: Secure Endpoints Inc. User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051025) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "RL 'Bob' Morgan" Subject: Re: [dix] thoughts on "identity" and IETF References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 X-No-Spam-Score: Local X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 128.59.29.8 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e472ca43d56132790a46d9eefd95f0a5 Cc: IETF DIX list X-BeenThere: dix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Digital Identity Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0778781381==" Sender: dix-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dix-bounces@ietf.org This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --===============0778781381== Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms050507020503010701040704" This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms050507020503010701040704 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit RL 'Bob' Morgan wrote: > > So is there something missing in the above stuff, some new > requirements requiring new stuff, ie "Identity 2.0"? I think the > people who say there is are motivated by the huge number of new things > that have happened on the web in the last few years. The center of > this is the blogging phenomenon. Maybe 20 million people are now > blogging. They're doing other things like putting lots of photos > online at Flickr, keeping their bookmarks on del.icio.us, tracking > tags on technorati, and zillions of other examples. They are > composing these services in myriad ways to create new services. In > sociological terms they are creating online identities for themselves > that they feel much more attachment to than their organizational > account, even their "my.foo.com" page at one of the traditional portal > sites. In Identity 1.0 terms they are all becoming, or have an > interest in becoming, both service providers and identity providers, > that is, they have an interest in protecting their resources (in the > canonical case of reducing blog spam), and in leveraging their > personal info to their millions of peers. > > So now in addition to the tens or hundreds of thousands of > institutions with identity interest, there are tens of millions of > individuals. Many people are trying to figure out what they need and > respond to it. The SXIP technology is one among those, others are > OpenID, LID, Passel, and no doubt many others. For the most part > these approaches reject traditional identity management protocols and > systems; whether they should or should not is one of the big > questions. A key point is that the individual interest in identity is > much more about expression, ie ease of sharing and discovery, than it > is in control (ie, fancy security). Another key point is individual > control, the same sort of control people feel over their personal > domain name and its site, or their blog. Even people who aren't > radically anti-corporate like to feel in charge of their own stuff. > > Kerberos is best known as an authentication system used by large organizations. It is thought that setting up and managing a Kerberos realm requires too much infrastructure and in particular too much administration for use by the masses. However, this is not necessarily the case. There is another model that has been discussed within the Kerberos development community but has not received much attention elsewhere. Instead of maintaining a very small number of highly trusted realms with thousands to hundreds of thousands of principals, what if it were possible for every computer that maintains its own set of local user accounts to be a realm? In this world service providers of e-mail, blogs, photo albums, etc. would all establish Kerberos realms, not to issue client principals but only to issue service principals for the service instances running on their clusters of computers. The client principals would be managed by the users in their own realms. The magic that enables the client principal jaltman@MY.PC to be accepted by blog/some.machine@BLOG.PROVIDER is Kerberos cross-realm authentication. The client application connecting to the blog service on some.machine would query the MY.PC KDC for a cross-realm ticket for BLOG.PROVIDER. After receiving such a ticket the client application would contact a BLOG.PROVIDER KDC to obtain the blog/some.machine@BLOG.PROVIDER service ticket that would in turn be used to authenticate jaltman@MY.PC to the blog service. If you have been paying close attention you will be asking yourself, "how can the MY.PC KDC issue a cross-realm ticket granting ticket for the BLOG.PROVIDER realm? The MY.PC realm administrator did not exchange a key with the BLOG.PROVIDER realm administrator." The answer to this problem is a proposal put for almost a decade ago entitled "Public Key Cryptography for Cross-Realm Authentication in Kerberos". A copy of the expired draft can be found in the Dec 1998 IETF proceedings. http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/98dec/I-D/draft-ietf-cat-kerberos-pk-cross-05.txt By using public key cryptography (with or without a PKI) to perform the key exchange, it is possible to remove the need for the manual exchange of keys by the administrator. Instead, "leap of faith" methods can be used to allow an individual to register their principal name with a service and validate the authenticating realm in much the same way that receipt of an e-mail and subsequent access to a URL is used. One of the nice benefits of using Kerberos is that it is a proven technology that has pre-existing wide spread deployment. Every major OS has Kerberos support already available for it. The Kerberos ticket format can also be used to exchange additional identity or authorization data. This data can be inserted by the realm issuing the ticket granting ticket or the realm issuing the service ticket. I grant that not all of the required functionality is available in the Kerberos support shipped in today's systems. However, adding the support as an incremental change to Kerberos would be no harder than adding support for an entirely new infrastructure that does not exist in any form. I look forward to answering any questions you might have. 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ dix mailing list dix@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dix --===============0778781381==-- From dix-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 14 21:15:13 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EbqLp-00061b-Sn; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 21:15:13 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EbqLo-00060C-Kz for dix@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 21:15:12 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA21129 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 21:14:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.184.195]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ebqcw-0000oY-Me for dix@ietf.org; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 21:32:56 -0500 Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i14so1387323wra for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 18:15:10 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=nmk9Qay7k4PIJ/ZCxmKnuTUD+qhfJ8Rul8gfdaQ+uCM7xcaxfP3snFDYb644Pn6dxZ9N8dfVgLR3jKZ8djWsvi1dzlZHyjUnM+LIEYV2mkmJhko914k4N7wHAfSFKW4sYkWrsUjrffhirNmFn4vzZfVozUDxeeag9E9uJI3dCRA= Received: by 10.54.146.17 with SMTP id t17mr3889297wrd; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 18:15:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.95.19 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 18:15:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <7b297ea20511141815k3b1b2051r79ab1081f59a6a43@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 18:15:10 -0800 From: "D'Andrew \"Dave\" Thompson" To: IETF DIX list Subject: Re: [dix] thoughts on "identity" and IETF In-Reply-To: <437659AB.80109@secure-endpoints.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <437659AB.80109@secure-endpoints.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: dix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Digital Identity Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: dix-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dix-bounces@ietf.org I wonder if rather than simply creating yet another protocol for security authentication/authorization we can't begin defining other aspects of identity as it has evolved. Perhaps we can begin establishing a manner to negotiate differing levels of trust need (as I am calling it) and probability thresholds. For example, it isn't always necessary that an identity must provide date of birth, social security number, etc. Rather, if the mitigating risks in a given action are minimal, than the level of trust need is lessened. Consequently, a lower probability threshold can be established in determining the probability that an identity is indeed who they say they are. For example, if a service is providing authentication/authorization for a online newspaper subscription, the risk of any identity gaining access to their service is not very high, so perhaps a given definition describing their risk level, trust need, and probability threshold could allow them to quickly authenticate based upon that given context. Whereas a bank's risk level will be much higher demanding a greater trust need, and hence a greater probability threshold. They could have a standard way of describing this context so that a user could provide the required level of identity verification. Aside from the benefits of a standard way to discuss contextual identity, this would certainly substantiate a more precise legal precedence for fraud prosecution based upon risk levels, allowing for businesses to mitigate their online risk appropriately and on a standard level. Just some thoughts... Thanks for listening. -Dave -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ D'Andrew "Dave" Thompson http://dathompson.blogspot.com _______________________________________________ dix mailing list dix@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dix From dix-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 15 13:35:15 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ec5eF-0002ry-DO; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 13:35:15 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ec5eD-0002rr-EY for dix@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 13:35:13 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA16350 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 13:34:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from marlin.sxip.com ([199.60.48.20] helo=mail1.sxip.com ident=root) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ec5vS-0006iY-RX for dix@ietf.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 13:53:05 -0500 Received: from [192.168.6.194] (dhcp194.sxip.com [192.168.6.194]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail1.sxip.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id jAFIYjWD046554 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:34:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from merrells@sxip.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <43737B66.90709@jabber.org> References: <43737B66.90709@jabber.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: John Merrells Subject: Re: [dix] thoughts on "identity" and IETF Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:34:44 -0800 To: dix@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.60.48.141 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: dix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Digital Identity Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: dix-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dix-bounces@ietf.org On 10-Nov-05, at 8:55 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > Perhaps part of the frustration with existing identity systems is > that they do not put the individual in control (no fault of the > existing identity systems, since as you point out individuals > didn't have online identities back then). I think this is a fundamental property of a successful internet scale digital identity architecture, and part of the reason why existing solutions have not achieved mass adoption. (Kim's first law basically...) > These are all interesting topics. It's not clear to me what the > IETF's role is here. Do we have engineering tasks to complete yet? > (If so, which aspects are folks proposing to work on?) Are these > more like research topics for the IRTF? Does identity work even > belong in the IETF? I have opinions, but right now I'm just asking > the questions. All good questions Peter. Role? The IETF's role is to provide an open venue and a process within which disparate interests can come together to agree on a 'solution' to this problem. Step one is to define the problem. Bob and yourself have come up with good requirements statements and use cases. I'll feed that into the proposed charter, which is on my list of this to do asap. Research? No. Code and been written and deployed... SXIP, LID, OpenID, Passel... We need a standard and we need interoperable implementations. Belong in the IETF? For sure. This is an internet wide problem and it's an end-to-end problem. Our 'customers' are individuals with an an online presence who are currently hampered by a lack of a ubiquitous and secure means to perform identity transactions. John _______________________________________________ dix mailing list dix@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dix From dix-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 15 14:23:58 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ec6PO-0003VN-LO; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 14:23:58 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ec6PN-0003VI-Jw for dix@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 14:23:58 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA19379 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 14:23:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from m1.informatik.uni-bremen.de ([134.102.201.18] helo=informatik.uni-bremen.de ident=root) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ec6ge-0008MH-Il for dix@ietf.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 14:41:50 -0500 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (m2.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9:209:3dff:fe00:343a]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.13.4/8.13.2) with ESMTP id jAFJNWOP018978; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 20:23:32 +0100 (CET) In-Reply-To: References: <43737B66.90709@jabber.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <2511F659-338F-4656-8D31-79C24ABA75FB@tzi.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Carsten Bormann Subject: Re: [dix] thoughts on "identity" and IETF Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 20:23:32 +0100 To: John Merrells X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: dix@ietf.org X-BeenThere: dix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Digital Identity Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: dix-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dix-bounces@ietf.org On Nov 15 2005, at 19:34 Uhr, John Merrells wrote: > Step one is to > define the problem. Quite obviously so. > [...] I'll feed that > into the proposed charter, One way to arrive at a sufficiently focused problem definition is to do this in the WG chartering process. Given the complexity of the undertaking, success is more likely when the group is initially chartered just to do a problem statement. Once that exists, it can then be rechartered to do elements of the required standardization. (Note that the IETF does not like "requirements" documents, as these are often rigged by proponents of specific solutions to favor these over others. We do problem statements, or -- if these are still to ambiguous -- refine these into statements of objectives.) The important thing is that there is no reason to wait for the BOF in Dallas -- a problem statement could evolve as (one or more) individual submissions, so things are already well-progressed by Dallas. (Individual submissions can be discussed on the list, so we already have generated something like a WG consensus even before the WG formally exists.) A good (set of) individual submission(s) will also lend focus to the BOF itself and increase the likelihood of actually having a WG afterwards. Gruesse, Carsten _______________________________________________ dix mailing list dix@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dix From dix-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 15 14:34:57 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ec6a1-0008CE-3q; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 14:34:57 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ec6Zz-0008BG-6t for dix@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 14:34:55 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA20255 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 14:34:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from m1.informatik.uni-bremen.de ([134.102.201.18] helo=informatik.uni-bremen.de ident=root) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ec6rH-0000MV-6k for dix@ietf.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 14:52:47 -0500 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (m2.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9:209:3dff:fe00:343a]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.13.4/8.13.2) with ESMTP id jAFJYoeX023239; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 20:34:51 +0100 (CET) In-Reply-To: <2511F659-338F-4656-8D31-79C24ABA75FB@tzi.org> References: <43737B66.90709@jabber.org> <2511F659-338F-4656-8D31-79C24ABA75FB@tzi.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Carsten Bormann Subject: Re: [dix] thoughts on "identity" and IETF Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 20:34:50 +0100 To: Carsten Bormann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: dix@ietf.org X-BeenThere: dix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Digital Identity Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: dix-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dix-bounces@ietf.org On Nov 15 2005, at 20:23 Uhr, Carsten Bormann wrote: > individual submissions Still suffering from Vancouver jet lag. Of course, I meant individual internet-drafts, not yet submitting anything to anyone. Gruesse, Carsten _______________________________________________ dix mailing list dix@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dix From dix-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 15 18:38:52 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EcAO4-00018p-Im; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 18:38:52 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EcAO3-00018k-LO for dix@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 18:38:51 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA06859 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 18:38:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EcAfM-0008Tm-Mb for dix@ietf.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2005 18:56:46 -0500 Received: from localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 538BA2596BB; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 00:38:15 +0100 (CET) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02535-05; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 00:38:12 +0100 (CET) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71D8B2596B9; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 00:38:09 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 15:03:02 -0800 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Carsten Bormann , John Merrells Subject: Re: [dix] thoughts on "identity" and IETF Message-ID: <2B082D7A02A3BF422B84722F@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <2511F659-338F-4656-8D31-79C24ABA75FB@tzi.org> References: <43737B66.90709@jabber.org> <2511F659-338F-4656-8D31-79C24ABA75FB@tzi.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.3 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Cc: dix@ietf.org X-BeenThere: dix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Digital Identity Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0307026829==" Sender: dix-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dix-bounces@ietf.org --===============0307026829== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="==========DFBA3C6E32432A472ACB==========" --==========DFBA3C6E32432A472ACB========== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --On 15. november 2005 20:23 +0100 Carsten Bormann wrote: > (Note that the IETF does not like "requirements" documents, as these are > often rigged by proponents of specific solutions to favor these over > others. > We do problem statements, or -- if these are still to ambiguous -- > refine these into statements of objectives.) note: the IETF currently is frequently asking for "requirements" documents to be=20 written. Many people don't like them, but some people do. --==========DFBA3C6E32432A472ACB========== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) iD8DBQFDemkmOMj+2+WY0F4RAr9tAKDCQXaGwWNwFz0/yLyZcX6vgV64KQCbByRC PGBVXEEaBsdEReNyQ3A9OdE= =0hPP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==========DFBA3C6E32432A472ACB==========-- --===============0307026829== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ dix mailing list dix@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dix --===============0307026829==-- From dix-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 16 16:44:07 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EcV4Z-0002iq-R0; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 16:44:07 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EcV4X-0002ih-5Z for dix@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 16:44:05 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA01886 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 16:43:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from corp-fw-main.jabber.com ([207.182.164.14] helo=wrk187.corp.jabber.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EcVLz-0003kY-M0 for dix@ietf.org; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 17:02:11 -0500 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wrk187.corp.jabber.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFEE8481F22; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 14:43:49 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <437BA815.1080809@jabber.org> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 14:43:49 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Macintosh/20051025) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Merrells Subject: Re: [dix] thoughts on "identity" and IETF References: <43737B66.90709@jabber.org> In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 34d35111647d654d033d58d318c0d21a Cc: dix@ietf.org X-BeenThere: dix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Digital Identity Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0895797524==" Sender: dix-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dix-bounces@ietf.org This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --===============0895797524== Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms040508050506050006020208" This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms040508050506050006020208 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Merrells wrote: > Step one is to > define the problem. Bob and yourself have come up with > good requirements statements and use cases. I'll feed that > into the proposed charter, which is on my list of this to do > asap. Cool beans, I'm looking forward to it. :-) Peter --------------ms040508050506050006020208 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIKdDCC BTYwggMeoAMCAQICAwGUqzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADB5MRAwDgYDVQQKEwdSb290IENBMR4w HAYDVQQLExVodHRwOi8vd3d3LmNhY2VydC5vcmcxIjAgBgNVBAMTGUNBIENlcnQgU2lnbmlu ZyBBdXRob3JpdHkxITAfBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWEnN1cHBvcnRAY2FjZXJ0Lm9yZzAeFw0wNTEw MjUyMjM4NDhaFw0wNjEwMjUyMjM4NDhaMGoxHTAbBgNVBAMTFEouIFBldGVyIFNhaW50LUFu ZHJlMSEwHwYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhJzdHBldGVyQGphYmJlci5vcmcxJjAkBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEW F2oucGV0ZXJAc2FpbnQtYW5kcmUuY29tMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKC AQEA1IwvV3ywawrPfb66pLs0KqIj5QKXYQ45EUlTzKp6iHeCQzd+Kr8AOO21dcs/s0VcQqno mVHDuqp0B+53Dp6Re66yc1x89U3HFFWw/HfLuAzbngoD9PmmSLaJsXGfO0PyXQPB5GVJfVnb 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1EcXGC-0000iK-PB; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 19:04:16 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EcXG9-0000hC-9I; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 19:04:15 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA09159; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 19:03:39 -0500 (EST) From: ad@ootao.com Received: from adsl-66-122-123-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net ([66.122.123.230] helo=web1-ootao) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EcXXe-0008EJ-UH; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 19:22:20 -0500 In-Reply-To: <437BA815.1080809@jabber.org> To: Peter Saint-Andre Subject: Re: [dix] thoughts on "identity" and IETF MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.3 September 14, 2004 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 15:34:24 -0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on web1/ooTao(Release 6.5.3|September 14, 2004) at 11/16/2005 03:34:39 PM Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_mixed 00005C23882570BC_=" X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a743e34ab8eb08259de9a7307caed594 Cc: dix@ietf.org, dix-bounces@ietf.org X-BeenThere: dix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Digital Identity Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: dix-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dix-bounces@ietf.org --=_mixed 00005C23882570BC_= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 00005C23882570BC_=" --=_alternative 00005C23882570BC_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" I'm sorry, I don't think I missed any messages in this thread but seem to have missed where I might go to see these requirements statements and use cases... can someone point me in the right direction? THANKS!! Andy Dale ooTao Phone: 877-213-7935 Fax: 877-213-7935 i-name: =Andy.Dale http://public.xdi.org/=andy.dale *************************************************************************** If you don't have your iName yet use this link: http://2idi.com/registrar/index.html?referral_code=ootao *************************************************************************** Peter Saint-Andre Sent by: dix-bounces@ietf.org 11/16/2005 01:43 PM To John Merrells cc dix@ietf.org Subject Re: [dix] thoughts on "identity" and IETF John Merrells wrote: > Step one is to > define the problem. Bob and yourself have come up with > good requirements statements and use cases. I'll feed that > into the proposed charter, which is on my list of this to do > asap. Cool beans, I'm looking forward to it. :-) Peter _______________________________________________ dix mailing list dix@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dix --=_alternative 00005C23882570BC_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
I'm sorry, I don't think I missed any messages in this thread but seem to have missed where I might go to see these requirements statements and use cases... can someone point me in the right direction? THANKS!!

Andy Dale
ooTao

Phone: 877-213-7935
Fax: 877-213-7935

i-name: =Andy.Dale
http://public.xdi.org/=andy.dale

***************************************************************************
If you don't have your iName yet use this link:

  http://2idi.com/registrar/index.html?referral_code=ootao

***************************************************************************


Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@jabber.org>
Sent by: dix-bounces@ietf.org

11/16/2005 01:43 PM

To
John Merrells <merrells@sxip.com>
cc
dix@ietf.org
Subject
Re: [dix] thoughts on "identity" and IETF





John Merrells wrote:

> Step one is to
> define the problem. Bob and yourself have come up with
> good requirements statements and use cases. I'll feed that
> into the proposed charter, which is on my list of this to do
> asap.

Cool beans, I'm looking forward to it. :-)

Peter


_______________________________________________
dix mailing list
dix@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dix
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ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA09597 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 19:11:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from corp-fw-main.jabber.com ([207.182.164.14] helo=wrk187.corp.jabber.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EcXeq-0008TN-M4 for dix@ietf.org; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 19:29:46 -0500 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wrk187.corp.jabber.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3ABB4820F0; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 17:11:29 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <437BCAB1.1000007@jabber.org> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 17:11:29 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Macintosh/20051025) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ad@ootao.com Subject: Re: [dix] thoughts on "identity" and IETF References: In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9a2be21919e71dc6faef12b370c4ecf5 Cc: dix@ietf.org X-BeenThere: dix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Digital Identity Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1744161198==" Sender: dix-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dix-bounces@ietf.org This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --===============1744161198== Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms020907070601040306080406" This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms020907070601040306080406 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ad@ootao.com wrote: > I'm sorry, I don't think I missed any messages in this thread but seem > to have missed where I might go to see these requirements statements and > use cases... can someone point me in the right direction? THANKS!! These may (or may not) be helpful: http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/dix/current/msg00007.html http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/dix/current/msg00008.html Not sure I would call those requirements statements or use cases, though, more like preliminary maps of the territory. > i-name: =Andy.Dale Oh, and I'm =stpeter too... ;-) Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre Jabber Software Foundation http://www.jabber.org/people/stpeter.shtml --------------ms020907070601040306080406 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIKdDCC BTYwggMeoAMCAQICAwGUqzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADB5MRAwDgYDVQQKEwdSb290IENBMR4w HAYDVQQLExVodHRwOi8vd3d3LmNhY2VydC5vcmcxIjAgBgNVBAMTGUNBIENlcnQgU2lnbmlu ZyBBdXRob3JpdHkxITAfBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWEnN1cHBvcnRAY2FjZXJ0Lm9yZzAeFw0wNTEw 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7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ dix mailing list dix@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dix --===============1744161198==-- From dix-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 17 07:09:51 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EciaN-00076q-RQ; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 07:09:51 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EciaM-00075q-3u for dix@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 07:09:50 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA17751 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 07:09:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from web81610.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.199.162]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ecirw-0007A6-Bx for dix@ietf.org; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 07:28:03 -0500 Received: (qmail 60033 invoked by uid 60001); 17 Nov 2005 12:09:37 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=ImEmxID+Fds8MtjdF06v9dZx96X3hDgIFqdc7OLt4OVNHZ0O6LNPpauzwmJ1kDnyou6gBAVGVerZcT2mYFWopDTi2PAqmPTILqvnd1yGgxCpKYozlytKOfM56Nm3MWr752pn0DMDllPYAmpwZ4n6SPVlqwCUBh2kMN82CaJCFdo= ; Message-ID: <20051117120937.60031.qmail@web81610.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [208.232.182.41] by web81610.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 04:09:37 PST Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 04:09:37 -0800 (PST) From: Hallett German Subject: Re: [dix] thoughts on "identity" and IETF To: Peter Saint-Andre , John Merrells In-Reply-To: <437BA815.1080809@jabber.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 1.3 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 6d62ab47271805379d7172ee693a45db Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: dix@ietf.org X-BeenThere: dix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Digital Identity Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: dix-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dix-bounces@ietf.org As this effort goes on, it may be helpful to look at leveraging Common Criteria since it is fairly complete when dealing with security requirements. Hal German _______________________________________________ dix mailing list dix@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dix From dix-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 17 09:16:34 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EckZ0-0006Pm-Gm; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 09:16:34 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EckYy-0006Ow-AZ; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 09:16:33 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA26302; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 09:15:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from e36.co.us.ibm.com ([32.97.110.154]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EckqY-0003Ua-9I; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 09:34:45 -0500 Received: from d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.106]) by e36.co.us.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id jAHEGBu6020864; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 09:16:11 -0500 Received: from d03av01.boulder.ibm.com (d03av01.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.167]) by d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VERS6.8) with ESMTP id jAHEHS50061632; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 07:17:28 -0700 Received: from d03av01.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av01.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id jAHEGBFX008229; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 07:16:11 -0700 Received: from d03nm119.boulder.ibm.com (d03nm119.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.145]) by d03av01.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id jAHEGAhU008138; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 07:16:10 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20051117120937.60031.qmail@web81610.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [dix] thoughts on "identity" and IETF To: Hallett German X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.4 March 27, 2005 Message-ID: From: Anthony Nadalin Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 07:56:54 -0600 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D03NM119/03/M/IBM(Release 6.53HF654 | July 22, 2005) at 11/17/2005 07:17:57 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Cc: dix@ietf.org, dix-bounces@ietf.org X-BeenThere: dix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Digital Identity Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1777712278==" Sender: dix-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dix-bounces@ietf.org --===============1777712278== Content-type: multipart/alternative; Boundary="0__=09BBFA2FDFDFBDE58f9e8a93df938690918c09BBFA2FDFDFBDE5" Content-Disposition: inline --0__=09BBFA2FDFDFBDE58f9e8a93df938690918c09BBFA2FDFDFBDE5 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >As this effort goes on, it may be helpful to look at >leveraging Common Criteria since it is fairly complete >when dealing with security requirements. Leveraging in which ways ? I don't think that the CC is at all complete when dealing with security requirements, it deals well with assurance requirements but leaves other requirement on the floor Anthony Nadalin --0__=09BBFA2FDFDFBDE58f9e8a93df938690918c09BBFA2FDFDFBDE5 Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline

>As this effort goes on, it may be helpful to look at
>leveraging Common Criteria since it is fairly complete
>when dealing with security requirements.

Leveraging in which ways ? I don't think that the CC is at all complete when dealing with security requirements, it deals well with assurance requirements but leaves other requirement on the floor

Anthony Nadalin
--0__=09BBFA2FDFDFBDE58f9e8a93df938690918c09BBFA2FDFDFBDE5-- --===============1777712278== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ dix mailing list dix@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dix --===============1777712278==-- From dix-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 17 12:27:59 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EcnYF-0003xy-Kf; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 12:27:59 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EcnYB-0003xk-Ag for dix@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 12:27:58 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA08271 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 12:27:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from web81608.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.199.160]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ecnpm-0001y6-Eo for dix@ietf.org; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 12:46:11 -0500 Received: (qmail 29510 invoked by uid 60001); 17 Nov 2005 17:27:40 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=wtxC5REzCE+0W+nNypMhDH9mvrf2L9Okr+fkNNM1zeZ36ZQbzw7bJWzdJsGGLlmbg/fARr9xKsGpd+mGocZWlQUy2OuN0Mkljdg5E3IVzSlUYRm+OWmRQePq5SDfxjqh4tMF672+ispNOzRBq3LO9JyNlaMC9N7tDx0v+yQq670= ; Message-ID: <20051117172740.29508.qmail@web81608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [141.202.248.11] by web81608.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 09:27:40 PST Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 09:27:40 -0800 (PST) From: Hallett German Subject: Re: [dix] thoughts on "identity" and IETF To: Anthony Nadalin In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 1.3 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: dix@ietf.org, dix-bounces@ietf.org X-BeenThere: dix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Digital Identity Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: dix-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dix-bounces@ietf.org Anthony: I will respond to this note only and do not wish to start a thread on this topic. I offer Common Criteria as something that may help, and if it doesn't help in creating requirements thats's ok as well. Yes, it has its own vocabularly that takes some learning. But as a starting point (IMHO), it is helpful in creating a framework of inter-related requirements. I agree that there are other aspects that it covers but not in the same level of detail. In any event, I too look forward to seeing the requirements draft Hal German. --- Anthony Nadalin wrote: > > > > > >As this effort goes on, it may be helpful to look > at > >leveraging Common Criteria since it is fairly > complete > >when dealing with security requirements. > > Leveraging in which ways ? I don't think that the CC > is at all complete > when dealing with security requirements, it deals > well with assurance > requirements but leaves other requirement on the > floor > > Anthony Nadalin _______________________________________________ dix mailing list dix@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dix From dix-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 18 02:11:01 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ed0Oj-0007hX-63; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 02:11:01 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ed0Of-0007cX-LG for dix@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 02:10:59 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA27090 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 02:10:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ed0gS-0004G6-4C for dix@ietf.org; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 02:29:21 -0500 Received: from localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 056B12596E3; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 08:10:20 +0100 (CET) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01447-06; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 08:10:13 +0100 (CET) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB1F92596E2; Fri, 18 Nov 2005 08:10:12 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 19:04:12 -0800 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Hallett German , Peter Saint-Andre , John Merrells Subject: Re: [dix] thoughts on "identity" and IETF Message-ID: <358DA16FC6E0F7C8BB109B0E@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <20051117120937.60031.qmail@web81610.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051117120937.60031.qmail@web81610.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.3 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 1.7 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c Cc: dix@ietf.org X-BeenThere: dix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Digital Identity Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1476465775==" Sender: dix-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dix-bounces@ietf.org --===============1476465775== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="==========376565D11F67A2E98F67==========" --==========376565D11F67A2E98F67========== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable in the interest of sanity.... when someone uses a term like "Common=20 Criteria", would it be possible to add a reference - full title, publisher, = version and possibly an URL? I know that people who live and breathe CC have trouble imagining that=20 anyone could be ignorant of them.... but it's been 5 years since I last had = to think about them, and I have no idea what the current version or URL=20 is.... Harald --On 17. november 2005 04:09 -0800 Hallett German=20 wrote: > As this effort goes on, it may be helpful to look at > leveraging Common Criteria since it is fairly complete > when dealing with security requirements. > Hal German > > > _______________________________________________ > dix mailing list > dix@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dix > > --==========376565D11F67A2E98F67========== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) iD8DBQFDfUSxOMj+2+WY0F4RAtSyAKDscoVHPlZlFFOffnYeKGQTE/ZlbwCfccT8 F5LFsLivX/lP20LqxhUy9jk= =yWri -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==========376565D11F67A2E98F67==========-- --===============1476465775== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ dix mailing list dix@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dix --===============1476465775==-- From dix-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 28 03:52:52 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Egekm-0005CH-AY; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 03:52:52 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Egekj-0005C2-W5 for dix@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 03:52:50 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA01934 for ; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 03:52:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from lucius.provo.novell.com ([137.65.81.172]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Egf4Z-0004d6-4E for dix@ietf.org; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 04:13:20 -0500 Received: from INET-PRV1-MTA by lucius.provo.novell.com with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 01:52:36 -0700 Message-Id: <438B12F8.A648.00B6.0@novell.com> X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 7.0 Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 01:53:06 -0700 From: "Haripriya S" To: "IETF DIX list" Subject: Re: [dix] thoughts on "identity" and IETF References: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: dix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Digital Identity Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: dix-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dix-bounces@ietf.org Hi all, I am new to this list but have done some work with identity. What I understand is that the working group will come up with requirements initially and later an architecture and possible set of standards for intenet-scale identity systems to support the 'Web 2.0' requirements that Bob talked about. I feel It would also be good to define capability requirements for the digital identity systems supported by this architecture, where products can comply with one or more levels of requirements thus giving a slate of products with various capabilities to suit different domains and classes of use. As an example, I can think of capabilities of identities like - anti-spamming, anti-theft, easy-to-create, one-time-use, federatable, easy-to-share, distributed-creation, distributed-authentication etc. An online bank could be interested in identity systems that support say, anti-theft properties. An online community on the other hand may be interested in ease-of-creation and ease-of-sharing. Probably this is a stupid example, but what I am trying to say is that the architecture to be developed should cater to various classes of usage, and should be able to support various identity designs and products that cater to each of these categories. They should also have a basic architecture with minimal capabilities, which will let them interoperate at a minimal level even if they belong to different capability levels. My two cents! Thanks, Haripriya >>> "RL 'Bob' Morgan" 11/10/05 4:35 am >>> So now in addition to the tens or hundreds of thousands of institutions with identity interest, there are tens of millions of individuals. Many people are trying to figure out what they need and respond to it. The SXIP technology is one among those, others are OpenID, LID, Passel, and no doubt many others. For the most part these approaches reject traditional identity management protocols and systems; whether they should or should not is one of the big questions. A key point is that the individual interest in identity is much more about expression, ie ease of sharing and discovery, than it is in control (ie, fancy security). Another key point is individual control, the same sort of control people feel over their personal domain name and its site, or their blog. Even people who aren't radically anti- corporate like to feel in charge of their own stuff. That's all I have time for now ... - RL "Bob" _______________________________________________ dix mailing list dix@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dix _______________________________________________ dix mailing list dix@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dix From dix-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 28 09:28:51 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Egjzv-0000BW-Fi; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 09:28:51 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Egjzu-0000BP-Or for dix@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 09:28:50 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA11447 for ; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 09:28:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from m1.informatik.uni-bremen.de ([134.102.201.18] helo=informatik.uni-bremen.de ident=root) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EgkJk-0007lc-Lx for dix@ietf.org; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 09:49:24 -0500 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (m2.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9:209:3dff:fe00:343a]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.13.4/8.13.2) with ESMTP id jASESevv024332; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:28:41 +0100 (CET) In-Reply-To: <438B12F8.A648.00B6.0@novell.com> References: <438B12F8.A648.00B6.0@novell.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <49D96272-DCC8-455D-A182-B01398F4BC89@tzi.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Carsten Bormann Subject: Re: [dix] thoughts on "identity" and IETF Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:28:35 +0100 To: "Haripriya S" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: IETF DIX list X-BeenThere: dix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Digital Identity Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: dix-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dix-bounces@ietf.org On Nov 28 2005, at 09:53 Uhr, Haripriya S wrote: > online bank Are these even in scope? I was hoping we were focusing on the things that cannot yet be done with Liberty-Alliance/SAML-style identities. Gruesse, Carsten _______________________________________________ dix mailing list dix@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dix From dix-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 28 20:47:17 2005 Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EguaT-00047q-ES; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 20:47:17 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EguaR-00040d-F7 for dix@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 20:47:15 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA23157 for ; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 20:46:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from s3.cableone.net ([24.116.0.229]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EguuO-000611-Ju for dix@ietf.org; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 21:07:54 -0500 Received: from [192.168.168.10] (unverified [69.92.70.67]) by S3.cableone.net (CableOne SMTP Service S3) with ESMTP id 38389054 for ; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:02:37 -0700 Message-ID: <438BB30E.1070606@Royer.com> Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 18:46:54 -0700 From: Doug Royer Organization: IntelliCal.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040805 Netscape/7.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF DIX list References: In-Reply-To: X-SpamDetect: *: 1.250000 NakedCR=2.0,Aspam=-0.8 X-NakedCr: Body contained naked cr characters X-NotAscii: charset=utf-8; X-IP-stats: Incoming Outgoing Last 0, First 108, in=209, out=193, spam=0 Known=true X-External-IP: 69.92.70.67 X-Abuse-Info: Send abuse complaints to abuse@cableone.net X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d008c19e97860b8641c1851f84665a75 Subject: [dix] A What is wrong list X-BeenThere: dix@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: IETF DIX list List-Id: Digital Identity Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0864141852==" Sender: dix-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dix-bounces@ietf.org This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --===============0864141852== Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms090104030107020208000107" This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms090104030107020208000107 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------020203010401090503000201" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020203010401090503000201 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Before there can be a new solution I think we need to list what is wrong with current solutions. I would be interested in reading about other needs even when slightly out of scope to this WG so that we can find the overlap that will be useful. I did some consulting and coding for the mortgage industry here in the USA (mismo.org e-signing and document control). They use XML and digitally signed documents such as deeds, titles, and load documents. Some of the issues below are more than identity, however they describe many issues that my customers have seen over the last few years where their core issue was identity, authorization, and chain of authority. The problems they ran into are: They had to be their own CA They had to issue the ID's and not use a commercial company as they needed to do more checking than an email address and credit card. Role vs Identity vs Authority A Person starts off as a secretary and signs some documents. Later they move up to load officer and can now sign loans. Same ID, different role. While their manager is out of town, they temporarily have the authority to sign other documents. With current solutions, they simply get a new digital signature. The fact that it is the same person may get lost. No standard way to track ID information by asking a CA. Roles need a range of time valid in the signature. In the example above, the person is only a temporary manager. An expire date may not be known when the signature is issued. (How long will my manager be in the hospital?). Roles need some kind of non-CA tree-of-authority. John said that Mary can sign this document. This implies a work flow protocol be in place to track the chain of authority as it relates to the role and ID. I could work for an ISP. While working I am still ID == DOUG. While not working I am still ID == DOUG. However my ROLE went from SUPPORT@ISP,com to DOUG. And supervisor@ISP said that ID == DOUG can use SUPPORT@ISP.com, co-signed by CA-ISP.com Long term tracking (think 20 years or more) of digital IDs. A protocol to store and fetch IDs and CA information over long times is needed. As in who signed this deed 15 years ago, and tell me about them. Who authorized John to sign this document 15 years ago? With email certs USER-1@hotISP.com may not be the same person that it was 1 year ago. No registry for 'user defined' data in signatures. They needed notary ID and state into a digital signature. Some 'user defined fields' would be nice in the cert. And some registry for knowing how to use them. Maybe a user defined field protocol to the CA to get text explanations of the user defined fields. Many say the revocation checking and process is what does not scale. For my customers we used a unique suffix to all the signatures revocation URLs so that it only looked like it was in one big file. (server.com/revoke-some-id). A DAV like server broke it down to a database. -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- We Do Standards - You Need Standards --------------020203010401090503000201 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=utf-8; name="Doug.vcf" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Doug.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit begin:vcard fn:Doug Royer n:Royer;Doug org:INET-Consulting.com adr:;;;;;;U.S.A email;internet:Doug@Royer.com title:CEO tel;work:866-594-8574 tel;fax:866-594-8574 note;quoted-printable:AOL: SupportUnix=0D=0A= MSN: Support@INET-Consulting.com=0D=0A= Yahoo: Help4Unix x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://Royer.com version:2.1 end:vcard --------------020203010401090503000201-- --------------ms090104030107020208000107 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature 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