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Cc: "dmm@ietf.org" <dmm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements
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Hi Anthony,

I agree with your reasoning. As such, in my opinion the requirement can 
be added along those lines.

Best regards,
Sérgio

On 11/29/2012 03:51 PM, h chan wrote:
>
> Sergio,
>
> The intentions of both 7.2 and 7.3 are to enable multicast solutions 
> can be developed by the multimob wg after dmm solutions have been 
> developed by dmm wg.
>
> In addition, I think multimob wg is concerned not only to be able to 
> develop "any" multicast solutions, but the multicast solutions that 
> will not have performance problems as investigated in the problem 
> statements.
>
> Therefore, I guess we can converge all three requirements 7.1, 7.2, 
> and 7.3 into one single requirement by taking into consideration all 
> these three requirements.
>
> H Anthony Chan
>
> *From:*Sérgio Figueiredo [mailto:sfigueiredo@av.it.pt]
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 29, 2012 5:14 AM
> *To:* h chan
> *Cc:* dmm@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements
>
> Hi Anthony,
>
> Sorry for the late answer. Please check my comments:
>
> On 11/28/2012 12:44 AM, h chan wrote:
>
>     So, if we rephrase 7.1 as
>
>     REQ7.1: Flexible multicast distribution
>
>     DMM solutions should enable multicast services which are
>     compatible with (flexible?) multicast distribution scenario. Etc.
>
> SF: It is not clear to me why you are introducing the redundancy in 
> the description. Do you mean it as it is?
>
>
> It will have the same intention as REQ7.2 and REQ7.3.
>
> Is that right?
>
> I would say that REQ7.1 has the major intention of avoiding the 
> referred problems, while REQ7.2 and REQ7.3 serve the purpose of 
> stating multicast should "somehow" be supported in DMM solutions.
>
> With REQ7.1, we want to assure the identified problems are avoided in 
> a future DMM solution.
>
> Best regards,
> Sérgio
>
> H Anthony Chan
>
> *From:*dmm-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> 
> [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Sérgio Figueiredo
> *Sent:* Monday, November 19, 2012 5:24 PM
> *To:* dmm@ietf.org <mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements
>
> Hi Anthony,
>
> Thank you for trying to progress on this matter. I mostly agree with 
> your analysis.
>
> As for the question you posed, first I would like to exactly 
> understand what you mean with "multicast distribution scenario" in 
> "DMM solutions should enable multicast services which are compatible 
> with multicast distribution scenario, etc.". It seems like there is no 
> major difference between this and the "DMM solutions should enable 
> solutions to support multicast services." requirement? Aren't both 
> expressing the need to enable multicast in a DMM solution?
>
> As you stated, "neglecting" the requirement 7.1 we proposed, leads to 
> the PSs you referred.  So, while 7.2 and 7.3 express the need for DMM 
> solutions to allow deployment of multicast services, 7.1 concerns  
> "how" IP multicast should be enabled in order to avoid the 
> aforementioned PSs. The usage of the word "flexible"is explained by:
>
> "This flexibility enables different IP multicast flows with respect to 
> a mobile host to be managed (e.g., subscribed, received and/or 
> transmitted) using multiple endpoints".
>
> In other words, compatibility with "multicast distribution scenario" 
> doesn't necessarily avoid PS1 and PS6.
>
> Thank you and best regards,
> Sérgio
>
> On 11/19/2012 10:28 PM, h chan wrote:
>
>     There are 3 proposals for multicast requirements. Before comparing
>     these proposals, let us understand what are the problems first.
>     Two problem statements have been proposed:
>
>     PS1 (revised): Non-optimal routes
>
>     Routing via a centralized anchor often results in a longer route.
>     The problem is especially manifested when accessing a local server
>     or servers of a Content Delivery Network (CDN), *or when receiving
>     / sending IP multicast packets*.
>
>     PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic
>
>     IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility
>     solutions  may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast
>     subscriptions towards the tunnel's downstream entity (e.g. MAG in
>     PMIPv6).  Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual
>     mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast
>     subscription(s) is prone to be received through different upstream
>     paths. This problem is potentially more severe in a distributed
>     mobility environment [draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].
>
>     Then, let us see whether all the 3 REQ proposals have the same
>     intention. In the following, I rephrase them to highlight their
>     similarities.
>
>     REQ7.1: Flexible multicast distribution
>
>     DMM solutions should be compatible with flexible multicast
>     distribution scenario. Etc.
>
>     The Motivation is to allow flexibility in (enable) multicast
>     solutions to solve the problems PS1 and PS6 as explained in use
>     cases already presented and discussed in multimob wg.
>
>     REQ7.2:
>
>     DMM solutions should enable solutions to support multicast traffic.
>
>     (Original wording was "The DMM (unicast) solution MUST be
>     specified in such a way that it can be extended to also support
>     multicast traffic." I rephrase it to highlight the similarity with
>     the other proposals and also changed the must to should.)
>
>     REQ7.3:
>
>     DMM solutions should enable solutions to support multicast services.
>
>     Original wording was "DMM solutions should support multicast
>     services ... etc. Given that it is the scope of multimob and not
>     dmm wg to provide the multicast solution, I think "support" here
>     means "enable" solutions to be developed (by multimob).
>
>     Similarity and subtle differences: Both REQ7.2 and REQ7.3 want to
>     enable multicast services. Yet the explanation in REQ7.1 seems to
>     indicate not just to enable any one multicast solution but also
>     needs the flexibility in multicast solution. Not all multicast
>     solutions are the same. Some of them results in PS1 or PS6.
>
>     Are there any are essential differences between:
>
>     In REQ7.1, DMM solutions should be compatible with flexible
>     multicast distribution scenario, etc.
>
>     Versus
>
>     DMM solutions should enable multicast services which are
>     compatible with multicast distribution scenario, etc.
>
>     H Anthony Chan
>
>     *From:*dmm-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org>
>     [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Seil Jeon
>     *Sent:* Monday, November 19, 2012 5:15 AM
>     *To:* pierrick.seite@orange.com <mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com>
>     *Cc:* dmm@ietf.org <mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
>     *Subject:* Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements
>
>     Hi Pierrick,
>
>     I've many times thought about your question. I would say how
>     effectively should we deploy/support multicast over distributed
>     mobility rather than distributed mobile multicast. As a result,
>     you can find this deployment use case and gap analysis at
>     http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03
>     presented in multimob several times.
>
>     In unicast DMM, main innovation is to distribute the anchor
>     function at many access routers from single core. Following
>     architectural concept of DMM, flexible multicast distribution is
>     one of multicast requirement resulted from the draft described above.
>
>     REQ8: Flexible multicast distribution
>
>     "DMM solutions SHOULD be compatible with flexible multicast
>     distribution scenarios. This flexibility enables different IP
>     multicast flows with respect to a mobile host to be managed (e.g.,
>     subscribed, received and/or transmitted) using multiple endpoints".
>
>     Motivation: The motivation for this requirement is to enable
>     flexibility in multicast distribution. The multicast solution may
>     therefore avoid having multicast-capable access routers being
>     restricted to manage all IP multicast traffic relative to a host
>     via a single endpoint (e.g. regular or tunnel interface), which
>     would lead to the problems described in PS1 and PS6.
>
>     PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic
>
>     IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility
>     solutions may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast
>     subscriptions towards the tunnel's downstream entity (e.g. MAG in
>     PMIPv6).  Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual
>     mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast
>     subscription(s) is prone to be received through different upstream
>     paths. This problem is potentially more severe in a distributed
>     mobility environment [draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].
>
>
>
>     Regards,
>
>     Seil
>
>     *From:*pierrick.seite@orange.com
>     <mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com> [mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com]
>     *Sent:* Monday, November 19, 2012 8:55 AM
>     *To:* 'karagian@cs.utwente.nl <mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl>';
>     seiljeon@av.it.pt <mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt>;
>     JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com
>     <mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com>
>     *Cc:* dmm@ietf.org <mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
>     *Subject:* RE: [DMM] Multicast requirements
>
>     Hi all,
>
>     I tend to agree with Georgious, however I still do not figure out
>     what is the use-case for distributed mobile multicast (other than
>     academic considerations)? Can someone give concrete example?
>
>     I haven't real all messages from this thread. So, maybe I missed
>     important points.
>
>     BR,
>
>     Pierrick
>
>     *De :*dmm-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org>
>     [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] *De la part de*
>     karagian@cs.utwente.nl <mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl>
>     *Envoyé :* samedi 17 novembre 2012 13:01
>     *À :* seiljeon@av.it.pt <mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt>;
>     JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com
>     <mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com>
>     *Cc :* dmm@ietf.org <mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
>     *Objet :* Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements
>
>     Hi all,
>
>     I also agree that the DMM solution should somehow consider
>     muticast deployment. However, I do not thnk that the DMM WG is the
>     right WG to provide the multicast based DMM solution!
>
>     One alternative solution will be to have a multicast requirement
>     that emphasizes the need of having extensibility hooks
>     (possibilities) that can be used later on by the multimob WG to
>     provide a
>
>     a multicast enabled DMM solution!
>
>     So a requirement that specifies something like the following could
>     be used for this purpose:
>
>     "The DMM (unicast) solution MUST be specified in such a way that
>     it can be extended to also support multicast traffic."
>
>     Best regards,
>
>     Georgios
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     *Van:*dmm-bounces@ietf.org
>     <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org>[dmm-bounces@ietf.org
>     <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org>] namens Seil Jeon [seiljeon@av.it.pt
>     <mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt>]
>     *Verzonden:* vrijdag 16 november 2012 22:25
>     *To:* 'Zuniga, Juan Carlos'
>     *Cc:* dmm@ietf.org <mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
>     *Onderwerp:* Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements
>
>     Hi Juan,
>
>     I've been looked at changed flow of your proposed text but sorry
>     now that my
>     comment is posted.
>     At first time, I couldn't make sure however, on hearing Stig's
>     description,
>     it seems quite reasonable at the first step, not giving any
>     restrictions but
>     leaving some-specific for the DMM solution it does not support
>     multicast.
>
>     On the other hand, it remains at a basic stage for the DMM solution to
>     support multicast.
>     So I think additional requirements need to be made for the DMM
>     solution,
>     accordingly. But of course, this should not also give any specific
>     limitation and restriction but should be made towards the
>     direction not
>     limiting the benefits provided by distributed deployment.
>
>     I hope to get more comments on this.
>
>     Regards,
>
>     Seil
>
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: dmm-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org>
>     [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>     Zuniga, Juan Carlos
>     Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 8:14 PM
>     To: Stig Venaas; dmm@ietf.org <mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
>     Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements
>
>
>     > -----Original Message-----
>     > From: Stig Venaas [mailto:stig@venaas.com]
>     > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 3:01 PM
>     > To: jouni korhonen
>     > Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org <mailto:sarikaya@ieee.org>; Zuniga, Juan
>     Carlos; Konstantinos Pentikousis;
>     > Peter McCann; dmm@ietf.org <mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
>     > Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements
>     >
>     > On 11/15/2012 3:17 AM, jouni korhonen wrote:
>     > >
>     > > On Nov 15, 2012, at 1:03 AM, Behcet Sarikaya wrote:
>     > >
>     > >>
>     > >> I think we are reading too much into multicast and unicast should
>     be
>     > >> designed in an integrated manner.
>     > >>
>     > >> The fact is that multicast is considered as an area of
>     > specialization,
>     > >> it requires knowledge of very different protocols than we are
>     > >> accustomed to in mobility.
>     > >
>     > > "Requirement: DMM solutions SHOULD support multicast services.
>     If a
>     > specific DMM solution does not support multicast services, an
>     > explanation MUST be provided."
>     >
>     > This sounds good to me.
>     >
>     > The main thing I want to achieve is what was describes as
>     motivation
>     > earlier in this thread. Multicast should at least be considered
>     when
>     > looking into DMM solutions, and not just an afterthought once the
>     > solution is decided.
>     >
>     > Stig
>
>     [JCZ] I fully agree with this. That was the intention of the
>     proposed text.
>
>     Regards,
>
>     Juan Carlos
>
>     >
>     > > To me that reads basically "do not break foundations for multicast
>     > unless you have a valid & documented reason for it".  If we look
>     e.g.
>     > into RFC625 multicast wording that is there very briefly but
>     gives a
>     > hint to a developer where to head to. That is the level I would
>     expect
>     > DMM documents should aim to.
>     > >
>     > > - Jouni
>     > >
>     > >
>     > >> Let dmm deal with its current charter that does not include a
>     word
>     > of
>     > >> multicast and if everything goes well we can come back and
>     discuss
>     > dmm
>     > >> multicast.
>     > >>
>     > >> Regards,
>     > >>
>     > >> Behcet
>
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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi Anthony,<br>
      <br>
      I agree with your reasoning. As such, in my opinion the
      requirement can be added along those lines.<br>
      <br>
      Best regards,<br>
      S&eacute;rgio<br>
      <br>
      On 11/29/2012 03:51 PM, h chan wrote:<br>
    </div>
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Sergio,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The
            intentions of both 7.2 and 7.3 are to enable multicast
            solutions can be developed by the multimob wg after dmm
            solutions have been developed by dmm wg.
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In
            addition, I think multimob wg is concerned not only to be
            able to develop &#8220;any&#8221; multicast solutions, but the multicast
            solutions that will not have performance problems as
            investigated in the problem statements. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Therefore,
            I guess we can converge all three requirements 7.1, 7.2, and
            7.3 into one single requirement by taking into consideration
            all these three requirements.
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">H
              Anthony Chan<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                S&eacute;rgio Figueiredo [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:sfigueiredo@av.it.pt">mailto:sfigueiredo@av.it.pt</a>]
                <br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 29, 2012 5:14 AM<br>
                <b>To:</b> h chan<br>
                <b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Hi Anthony,<br>
            <br>
            Sorry for the late answer. Please check my comments:<br>
            <br>
            On 11/28/2012 12:44 AM, h chan wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">So,
              if we rephrase 7.1 as</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">REQ7.1:
              Flexible multicast distribution</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">DMM
              solutions should enable multicast services which are
              compatible with (flexible?) multicast distribution
              scenario. Etc.
            </span><o:p></o:p></p>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal">SF: It is not clear to me why you are
          introducing the redundancy in the description. Do you mean it
          as it is?<br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">It
            will have the same intention as REQ7.2 and REQ7.3.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Is
            that right?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">I would say that REQ7.1 has the major
          intention of avoiding the referred problems, while REQ7.2 and
          REQ7.3 serve the purpose of stating multicast should "somehow"
          be supported in DMM solutions.
          <br>
          <br>
          With REQ7.1, we want to assure the identified problems are
          avoided in a future DMM solution.<br>
          <br>
          Best regards,<br>
          S&eacute;rgio<br>
          <br>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">H
              Anthony Chan</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>
                [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>S&eacute;rgio Figueiredo<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 19, 2012 5:24 PM<br>
                <b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Hi Anthony,<br>
            <br>
            Thank you for trying to progress on this matter. I mostly
            agree with your analysis.<br>
            <br>
            As for the question you posed, first I would like to exactly
            understand what you mean with "multicast distribution
            scenario" in "<span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">DMM
              solutions should enable multicast services which are
              compatible with multicast distribution scenario, etc.</span>".
            It seems like there is no major difference between this and
            the "<span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">DMM
              solutions should enable solutions to support multicast
              services.</span>" requirement? Aren't both expressing the
            need to enable multicast in a DMM solution?<br>
            <br>
            As you stated, "neglecting" the requirement 7.1 we proposed,
            leads to the PSs you referred.&nbsp; So, while 7.2 and 7.3
            express the need for DMM solutions to allow deployment of
            multicast services, 7.1 concerns&nbsp; "how" IP multicast should
            be enabled in order to avoid the aforementioned PSs. The
            usage of the word "flexible"is explained by: <br>
            <br>
            "<span style="color:windowtext">This flexibility enables
              different IP multicast flows with respect to a mobile host
              to be managed (e.g., subscribed, received and/or
              transmitted) using
            </span>multiple endpoints". <br>
            <br>
            In other words, compatibility with "multicast distribution
            scenario" doesn't necessarily avoid PS1 and PS6.<br>
            <br>
            Thank you and best regards,<br>
            S&eacute;rgio<br>
            <br>
            On 11/19/2012 10:28 PM, h chan wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">There
              are 3 proposals for multicast requirements. Before
              comparing these proposals, let us understand what are the
              problems first. Two problem statements have been proposed:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">PS1
              (revised): Non-optimal routes</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333399">Routing
              via a centralized anchor often results in a longer route.
              The problem is especially manifested when accessing a
              local server or servers of a Content Delivery Network
              (CDN), <b>or when receiving / sending IP multicast
                packets</b>.
            </span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"
            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333399">PS6:
              Duplicate multicast traffic</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333399">IP
              multicast distribution over architectures using IP
              mobility solutions&nbsp; may lead to convergence of duplicated
              multicast subscriptions towards the tunnel&#8217;s downstream
              entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).&nbsp; Concretely, when multicast
              subscription for individual mobile nodes is coupled with
              mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast subscription(s) is
              prone to be received through different upstream paths.
              This problem is potentially more severe in a distributed
              mobility environment
              [draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#0070C0">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Then,
              let us see whether all the 3 REQ proposals have the same
              intention. In the following, I rephrase them to highlight
              their similarities.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">REQ7.1:
              Flexible multicast distribution</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">DMM
              solutions should be compatible with flexible multicast
              distribution scenario. Etc.
            </span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The
              Motivation is to allow flexibility in (enable) multicast
              solutions to solve the problems PS1 and PS6 as explained
              in use cases already presented and discussed in multimob
              wg.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">REQ7.2:
            </span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">DMM
              solutions should enable solutions to support multicast
              traffic.
            </span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">(Original
              wording was "The DMM (unicast) solution MUST be specified
              in such a way that it can be extended to also support
              multicast traffic." I rephrase it to highlight the
              similarity with the other proposals and also changed the
              must to should.)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">REQ7.3:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">DMM
              solutions should enable solutions to support multicast
              services.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Original
              wording was &#8220;DMM solutions should support multicast
              services &#8230; etc. Given that it is the scope of multimob and
              not dmm wg to provide the multicast solution, I think
              &#8220;support&#8221; here means &#8220;enable&#8221; solutions to be developed
              (by multimob).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Similarity
              and subtle differences: Both REQ7.2 and REQ7.3 want to
              enable multicast services. Yet the explanation in REQ7.1
              seems to indicate not just to enable any one multicast
              solution but also needs the flexibility in multicast
              solution. Not all multicast solutions are the same. Some
              of them results in PS1 or PS6.
            </span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Are
                there any are essential differences between:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In
                REQ7.1, DMM solutions should be compatible with flexible
                multicast distribution scenario, etc.
              </span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Versus</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">DMM
                solutions should enable multicast services which are
                compatible with multicast distribution scenario, etc.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">H
                Anthony Chan</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
                  <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>
                  [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                  <b>On Behalf Of </b>Seil Jeon<br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 19, 2012 5:15 AM<br>
                  <b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com">pierrick.seite@orange.com</a><br>
                  <b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Hi
              Pierrick,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I&#8217;ve
              many times thought about your question. I would say how
              effectively should we deploy/support multicast over
              distributed mobility rather than distributed mobile
              multicast. As a result, you can find this deployment use
              case and gap analysis at <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03</a>
              presented in multimob several times.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">In
              unicast DMM, main innovation is to distribute the anchor
              function at many access routers from single core.
              Following architectural concept of DMM, flexible multicast
              distribution is one of multicast requirement resulted from
              the draft described above. </span>
            <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">REQ8: Flexible multicast distribution<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"
            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">"DMM
            solutions SHOULD be compatible with flexible multicast
            distribution scenarios. This flexibility enables different
            IP multicast flows with respect to a mobile host to be
            managed (e.g., subscribed, received and/or transmitted)
            using multiple endpoints". <br>
            <br>
            Motivation: The motivation for this requirement is to enable
            flexibility in multicast distribution. The multicast
            solution may therefore avoid having multicast-capable access
            routers being restricted to manage all IP multicast traffic
            relative to a host via a single endpoint (e.g. regular or
            tunnel interface), which would lead to the problems
            described in PS1 and PS6.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"
            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">PS6:
            Duplicate multicast traffic<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">IP multicast
            distribution over architectures using IP mobility solutions&nbsp;
            may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast
            subscriptions towards the tunnel&#8217;s downstream entity (e.g.
            MAG in PMIPv6).&nbsp; Concretely, when multicast subscription for
            individual mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels,
            duplicate multicast subscription(s) is prone to be received
            through different upstream paths. This problem is
            potentially more severe in a distributed mobility
            environment [draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].<br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Seil</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
                  <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com">pierrick.seite@orange.com</a>
                  [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com">mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com</a>]
                  <br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 19, 2012 8:55 AM<br>
                  <b>To:</b> '<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl">karagian@cs.utwente.nl</a>';
                  <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt">
                    seiljeon@av.it.pt</a>; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com">JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com</a><br>
                  <b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> RE: [DMM] Multicast requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="FR">Hi all,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="FR">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I
              tend to agree with Georgious, however I still do not
              figure out what is the use-case for distributed mobile
              multicast (other than academic considerations)? Can
              someone give concrete example? </span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I
              haven&#8217;t real all messages from this thread. So, maybe I
              missed important points.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">BR,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Pierrick</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
            1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
            <div>
              <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
                1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
                <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                      lang="FR">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                    lang="FR">
                    <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>
                    [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                    <b>De la part de</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl">karagian@cs.utwente.nl</a><br>
                    <b>Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;:</b> samedi 17 novembre 2012 13:01<br>
                    <b>&Agrave;&nbsp;:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt">seiljeon@av.it.pt</a>;
                    <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com">
                      JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com</a><br>
                    <b>Cc&nbsp;:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
                    <b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
            </div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <div>
              <p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                  lang="FR">Hi all,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                  lang="FR">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                  lang="FR">I also agree that the DMM solution should
                  somehow consider muticast deployment. However, I do
                  not thnk that the DMM WG is the right WG to provide
                  the multicast based DMM solution!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                  lang="FR">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                  lang="FR">One alternative solution will be to have a
                  multicast requirement that emphasizes the need of
                  having extensibility hooks (possibilities) that can be
                  used later on by the multimob WG to provide a </span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                  lang="FR">a multicast enabled DMM solution!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                  lang="FR">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                  lang="FR">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                  lang="FR">So a requirement that specifies something
                  like the following could be used for this purpose:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                  lang="FR">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                  lang="FR">"The DMM (unicast) solution&nbsp;MUST be
                  specified in such a way that it can be extended to
                  also support multicast traffic."</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                  lang="FR">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                  lang="FR">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                  lang="FR">Best regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                  lang="FR">Georgios</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                  lang="FR">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                  lang="FR">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                  lang="FR">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <div>
                <div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center"
                  align="center"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                    lang="FR">
                    <hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">
                  </span></div>
                <div id="x_divRplyFwdMsg">
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Van:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
                    </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                      lang="FR"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span
                          lang="EN-US">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                      lang="FR">
                    </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">[<a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                      namens Seil Jeon [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt">seiljeon@av.it.pt</a>]<br>
                      <b>Verzonden:</b> vrijdag 16 november 2012 22:25<br>
                      <b>To:</b> 'Zuniga, Juan Carlos'<br>
                      <b>Cc:</b> </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                      lang="FR"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span lang="EN-US">dmm@ietf.org</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
                      <b>Onderwerp:</b> Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                    lang="FR">Hi Juan,<br>
                    <br>
                    I've been looked at changed flow of your proposed
                    text but sorry now that my<br>
                    comment is posted.<br>
                    At first time, I couldn't make sure however, on
                    hearing Stig's description,<br>
                    it seems quite reasonable at the first step, not
                    giving any restrictions but<br>
                    leaving some-specific for the DMM solution it does
                    not support multicast.<br>
                    <br>
                    On the other hand, it remains at a basic stage for
                    the DMM solution to<br>
                    support multicast.<br>
                    So I think additional requirements need to be made
                    for the DMM solution,<br>
                    accordingly. But of course, this should not also
                    give any specific<br>
                    limitation and restriction but should be made
                    towards the direction not<br>
                    limiting the benefits provided by distributed
                    deployment.<br>
                    <br>
                    I hope to get more comments on this.<br>
                    <br>
                  </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Regards,<br>
                    <br>
                    Seil<br>
                    <br>
                    <br>
                    -----Original Message-----<br>
                    From: </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                    lang="FR"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span
                        lang="EN-US">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>
                  </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">[</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                    lang="FR"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org" target="_blank"><span
                        lang="EN-US">mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">]
                    On Behalf Of<br>
                    Zuniga, Juan Carlos<br>
                    Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 8:14 PM<br>
                    To: Stig Venaas; </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                    lang="FR"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span lang="EN-US">dmm@ietf.org</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
                    Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements<br>
                    <br>
                    <br>
                    &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
                    &gt; From: Stig Venaas [</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                    lang="FR"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:stig@venaas.com" target="_blank"><span
                        lang="EN-US">mailto:stig@venaas.com</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">]<br>
                    &gt; Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 3:01 PM<br>
                    &gt; To: jouni korhonen<br>
                    &gt; Cc: </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                    lang="FR"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:sarikaya@ieee.org"><span lang="EN-US">sarikaya@ieee.org</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">;
                    Zuniga, Juan Carlos; Konstantinos Pentikousis; <br>
                    &gt; Peter McCann; </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                    lang="FR"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span lang="EN-US">dmm@ietf.org</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
                    &gt; Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements<br>
                    &gt; <br>
                    &gt; On 11/15/2012 3:17 AM, jouni korhonen wrote:<br>
                    &gt; &gt;<br>
                    &gt; &gt; On Nov 15, 2012, at 1:03 AM, Behcet
                    Sarikaya wrote:<br>
                    &gt; &gt;<br>
                    &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
                    &gt; &gt;&gt; I think we are reading too much into
                    multicast and unicast should<br>
                    be<br>
                    &gt; &gt;&gt; designed in an integrated manner.<br>
                  </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                    lang="FR">&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
                    &gt; &gt;&gt; The fact is that multicast is
                    considered as an area of<br>
                    &gt; specialization,<br>
                    &gt; &gt;&gt; it requires knowledge of very
                    different protocols than we are <br>
                    &gt; &gt;&gt; accustomed to in mobility.<br>
                    &gt; &gt;<br>
                    &gt; &gt; "Requirement: DMM solutions SHOULD support
                    multicast services. If a<br>
                    &gt; specific DMM solution does not support
                    multicast services, an <br>
                    &gt; explanation MUST be provided."<br>
                    &gt; <br>
                    &gt; This sounds good to me.<br>
                    &gt; <br>
                    &gt; The main thing I want to achieve is what was
                    describes as motivation <br>
                    &gt; earlier in this thread. Multicast should at
                    least be considered when <br>
                    &gt; looking into DMM solutions, and not just an
                    afterthought once the <br>
                    &gt; solution is decided.<br>
                    &gt; <br>
                    &gt; Stig<br>
                    <br>
                    [JCZ] I fully agree with this. That was the
                    intention of the proposed text.<br>
                    <br>
                    Regards,<br>
                    <br>
                    Juan Carlos<br>
                    &nbsp;<br>
                    &gt; <br>
                    &gt; &gt; To me that reads basically "do not break
                    foundations for multicast<br>
                    &gt; unless you have a valid &amp; documented reason
                    for it".&nbsp; If we look e.g.<br>
                    &gt; into RFC625 multicast wording that is there
                    very briefly but gives a <br>
                    &gt; hint to a developer where to head to. That is
                    the level I would expect <br>
                    &gt; DMM documents should aim to.<br>
                    &gt; &gt;<br>
                    &gt; &gt; - Jouni<br>
                    &gt; &gt;<br>
                    &gt; &gt;<br>
                    &gt; &gt;&gt; Let dmm deal with its current charter
                    that does not include a word<br>
                    &gt; of<br>
                    &gt; &gt;&gt; multicast and if everything goes well
                    we can come back and discuss<br>
                    &gt; dmm<br>
                    &gt; &gt;&gt; multicast.<br>
                  </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&gt;
                    &gt;&gt;<br>
                    &gt; &gt;&gt; Regards,<br>
                    &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
                    &gt; &gt;&gt; Behcet<br>
                    <br>
                    _______________________________________________<br>
                    dmm mailing list<br>
                  </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                    lang="FR"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span lang="EN-US">dmm@ietf.org</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
                  </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                    lang="FR"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm"
                      target="_blank"><span lang="EN-US">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
                    <br>
                    _______________________________________________<br>
                    dmm mailing list<br>
                  </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                    lang="FR"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span lang="EN-US">dmm@ietf.org</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
                  </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                    lang="FR"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm"
                      target="_blank"><span lang="EN-US">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
          <pre><span lang="FR">_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><span lang="FR">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
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From: h chan <h.anthony.chan@huawei.com>
To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=E9rgio_Figueiredo?= <sfigueiredo@av.it.pt>
Thread-Topic: [DMM] Multicast requirements
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Has the following taken 7.1, 7.2, and 7.3 into consideration?

REQ7: Flexible multicast distribution
DMM should enable multicast solutions in flexible distribution scenario. Th=
is flexibility enables different IP multicast flows with respect to a mobil=
e host to be managed (e.g., subscribed, received and/or transmitted) using =
multiple endpoints.

Motivation: The motivation of this requirement is to consider multicast ear=
ly so that solutions can be developed to overcome performance issues in mul=
ticast distribution scenario. The multicast solution may therefore avoid ha=
ving multicast-capable access routers being restricted to manage all IP mul=
ticast traffic relative to a host via a single endpoint (e.g., regular or t=
unnel interface), which would lead to the problems described in PS1 and PS6=
.

H Anthony Chan

From: dmm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of S=E9r=
gio Figueiredo
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2012 9:00 AM
To: h chan
Cc: dmm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements

Hi Anthony,

I agree with your reasoning. As such, in my opinion the requirement can be =
added along those lines.

Best regards,
S=E9rgio

On 11/29/2012 03:51 PM, h chan wrote:
Sergio,

The intentions of both 7.2 and 7.3 are to enable multicast solutions can be=
 developed by the multimob wg after dmm solutions have been developed by dm=
m wg.
In addition, I think multimob wg is concerned not only to be able to develo=
p "any" multicast solutions, but the multicast solutions that will not have=
 performance problems as investigated in the problem statements.

Therefore, I guess we can converge all three requirements 7.1, 7.2, and 7.3=
 into one single requirement by taking into consideration all these three r=
equirements.

H Anthony Chan

From: S=E9rgio Figueiredo [mailto:sfigueiredo@av.it.pt]
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 5:14 AM
To: h chan
Cc: dmm@ietf.org<mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements

Hi Anthony,

Sorry for the late answer. Please check my comments:

On 11/28/2012 12:44 AM, h chan wrote:
So, if we rephrase 7.1 as
REQ7.1: Flexible multicast distribution
DMM solutions should enable multicast services which are compatible with (f=
lexible?) multicast distribution scenario. Etc.
SF: It is not clear to me why you are introducing the redundancy in the des=
cription. Do you mean it as it is?




It will have the same intention as REQ7.2 and REQ7.3.

Is that right?

I would say that REQ7.1 has the major intention of avoiding the referred pr=
oblems, while REQ7.2 and REQ7.3 serve the purpose of stating multicast shou=
ld "somehow" be supported in DMM solutions.

With REQ7.1, we want to assure the identified problems are avoided in a fut=
ure DMM solution.

Best regards,
S=E9rgio


H Anthony Chan

From: dmm-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:dmm-bounces=
@ietf.org] On Behalf Of S=E9rgio Figueiredo
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 5:24 PM
To: dmm@ietf.org<mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements

Hi Anthony,

Thank you for trying to progress on this matter. I mostly agree with your a=
nalysis.

As for the question you posed, first I would like to exactly understand wha=
t you mean with "multicast distribution scenario" in "DMM solutions should =
enable multicast services which are compatible with multicast distribution =
scenario, etc.". It seems like there is no major difference between this an=
d the "DMM solutions should enable solutions to support multicast services.=
" requirement? Aren't both expressing the need to enable multicast in a DMM=
 solution?

As you stated, "neglecting" the requirement 7.1 we proposed, leads to the P=
Ss you referred.  So, while 7.2 and 7.3 express the need for DMM solutions =
to allow deployment of multicast services, 7.1 concerns  "how" IP multicast=
 should be enabled in order to avoid the aforementioned PSs. The usage of t=
he word "flexible"is explained by:

"This flexibility enables different IP multicast flows with respect to a mo=
bile host to be managed (e.g., subscribed, received and/or transmitted) usi=
ng multiple endpoints".

In other words, compatibility with "multicast distribution scenario" doesn'=
t necessarily avoid PS1 and PS6.

Thank you and best regards,
S=E9rgio

On 11/19/2012 10:28 PM, h chan wrote:
There are 3 proposals for multicast requirements. Before comparing these pr=
oposals, let us understand what are the problems first. Two problem stateme=
nts have been proposed:

PS1 (revised): Non-optimal routes

Routing via a centralized anchor often results in a longer route. The probl=
em is especially manifested when accessing a local server or servers of a C=
ontent Delivery Network (CDN), or when receiving / sending IP multicast pac=
kets.
PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic
IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility solutions  m=
ay lead to convergence of duplicated multicast subscriptions towards the tu=
nnel's downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).  Concretely, when multicast =
subscription for individual mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels, =
duplicate multicast subscription(s) is prone to be received through differe=
nt upstream paths. This problem is potentially more severe in a distributed=
 mobility environment [draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].

Then, let us see whether all the 3 REQ proposals have the same intention. I=
n the following, I rephrase them to highlight their similarities.

REQ7.1: Flexible multicast distribution
DMM solutions should be compatible with flexible multicast distribution sce=
nario. Etc.
The Motivation is to allow flexibility in (enable) multicast solutions to s=
olve the problems PS1 and PS6 as explained in use cases already presented a=
nd discussed in multimob wg.

REQ7.2:
DMM solutions should enable solutions to support multicast traffic.

(Original wording was "The DMM (unicast) solution MUST be specified in such=
 a way that it can be extended to also support multicast traffic." I rephra=
se it to highlight the similarity with the other proposals and also changed=
 the must to should.)

REQ7.3:
DMM solutions should enable solutions to support multicast services.

Original wording was "DMM solutions should support multicast services ... e=
tc. Given that it is the scope of multimob and not dmm wg to provide the mu=
lticast solution, I think "support" here means "enable" solutions to be dev=
eloped (by multimob).

Similarity and subtle differences: Both REQ7.2 and REQ7.3 want to enable mu=
lticast services. Yet the explanation in REQ7.1 seems to indicate not just =
to enable any one multicast solution but also needs the flexibility in mult=
icast solution. Not all multicast solutions are the same. Some of them resu=
lts in PS1 or PS6.

Are there any are essential differences between:
In REQ7.1, DMM solutions should be compatible with flexible multicast distr=
ibution scenario, etc.
Versus
DMM solutions should enable multicast services which are compatible with mu=
lticast distribution scenario, etc.

H Anthony Chan

From: dmm-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:dmm-bounces=
@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Seil Jeon
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 5:15 AM
To: pierrick.seite@orange.com<mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com>
Cc: dmm@ietf.org<mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements

Hi Pierrick,

I've many times thought about your question. I would say how effectively sh=
ould we deploy/support multicast over distributed mobility rather than dist=
ributed mobile multicast. As a result, you can find this deployment use cas=
e and gap analysis at http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sfigueiredo-multimob=
-use-case-dmm-03 presented in multimob several times.

In unicast DMM, main innovation is to distribute the anchor function at man=
y access routers from single core. Following architectural concept of DMM, =
flexible multicast distribution is one of multicast requirement resulted fr=
om the draft described above.


REQ8: Flexible multicast distribution
"DMM solutions SHOULD be compatible with flexible multicast distribution sc=
enarios. This flexibility enables different IP multicast flows with respect=
 to a mobile host to be managed (e.g., subscribed, received and/or transmit=
ted) using multiple endpoints".

Motivation: The motivation for this requirement is to enable flexibility in=
 multicast distribution. The multicast solution may therefore avoid having =
multicast-capable access routers being restricted to manage all IP multicas=
t traffic relative to a host via a single endpoint (e.g. regular or tunnel =
interface), which would lead to the problems described in PS1 and PS6.
PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic
IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility solutions  m=
ay lead to convergence of duplicated multicast subscriptions towards the tu=
nnel's downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).  Concretely, when multicast =
subscription for individual mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels, =
duplicate multicast subscription(s) is prone to be received through differe=
nt upstream paths. This problem is potentially more severe in a distributed=
 mobility environment [draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].




Regards,

Seil

From: pierrick.seite@orange.com<mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com> [mailto:p=
ierrick.seite@orange.com]
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 8:55 AM
To: 'karagian@cs.utwente.nl<mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl>'; seiljeon@av.it=
.pt<mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt>; JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com<mailto:Ju=
anCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com>
Cc: dmm@ietf.org<mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [DMM] Multicast requirements

Hi all,

I tend to agree with Georgious, however I still do not figure out what is t=
he use-case for distributed mobile multicast (other than academic considera=
tions)? Can someone give concrete example?

I haven't real all messages from this thread. So, maybe I missed important =
points.

BR,
Pierrick

De : dmm-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:dmm-bounces@=
ietf.org] De la part de karagian@cs.utwente.nl<mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.n=
l>
Envoy=E9 : samedi 17 novembre 2012 13:01
=C0 : seiljeon@av.it.pt<mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt>; JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterD=
igital.com<mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com>
Cc : dmm@ietf.org<mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
Objet : Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements


Hi all,



I also agree that the DMM solution should somehow consider muticast deploym=
ent. However, I do not thnk that the DMM WG is the right WG to provide the =
multicast based DMM solution!



One alternative solution will be to have a multicast requirement that empha=
sizes the need of having extensibility hooks (possibilities) that can be us=
ed later on by the multimob WG to provide a

a multicast enabled DMM solution!





So a requirement that specifies something like the following could be used =
for this purpose:



"The DMM (unicast) solution MUST be specified in such a way that it can be =
extended to also support multicast traffic."





Best regards,

Georgios







________________________________
Van: dmm-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> [dmm-bounces@ietf.or=
g<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org>] namens Seil Jeon [seiljeon@av.it.pt<mailto:=
seiljeon@av.it.pt>]
Verzonden: vrijdag 16 november 2012 22:25
To: 'Zuniga, Juan Carlos'
Cc: dmm@ietf.org<mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
Onderwerp: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements
Hi Juan,

I've been looked at changed flow of your proposed text but sorry now that m=
y
comment is posted.
At first time, I couldn't make sure however, on hearing Stig's description,
it seems quite reasonable at the first step, not giving any restrictions bu=
t
leaving some-specific for the DMM solution it does not support multicast.

On the other hand, it remains at a basic stage for the DMM solution to
support multicast.
So I think additional requirements need to be made for the DMM solution,
accordingly. But of course, this should not also give any specific
limitation and restriction but should be made towards the direction not
limiting the benefits provided by distributed deployment.

I hope to get more comments on this.

Regards,

Seil


-----Original Message-----
From: dmm-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:dmm-bounces=
@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Zuniga, Juan Carlos
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 8:14 PM
To: Stig Venaas; dmm@ietf.org<mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stig Venaas [mailto:stig@venaas.com]
> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 3:01 PM
> To: jouni korhonen
> Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org<mailto:sarikaya@ieee.org>; Zuniga, Juan Carlos; Kon=
stantinos Pentikousis;
> Peter McCann; dmm@ietf.org<mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements
>
> On 11/15/2012 3:17 AM, jouni korhonen wrote:
> >
> > On Nov 15, 2012, at 1:03 AM, Behcet Sarikaya wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> I think we are reading too much into multicast and unicast should
be
> >> designed in an integrated manner.
> >>
> >> The fact is that multicast is considered as an area of
> specialization,
> >> it requires knowledge of very different protocols than we are
> >> accustomed to in mobility.
> >
> > "Requirement: DMM solutions SHOULD support multicast services. If a
> specific DMM solution does not support multicast services, an
> explanation MUST be provided."
>
> This sounds good to me.
>
> The main thing I want to achieve is what was describes as motivation
> earlier in this thread. Multicast should at least be considered when
> looking into DMM solutions, and not just an afterthought once the
> solution is decided.
>
> Stig

[JCZ] I fully agree with this. That was the intention of the proposed text.

Regards,

Juan Carlos

>
> > To me that reads basically "do not break foundations for multicast
> unless you have a valid & documented reason for it".  If we look e.g.
> into RFC625 multicast wording that is there very briefly but gives a
> hint to a developer where to head to. That is the level I would expect
> DMM documents should aim to.
> >
> > - Jouni
> >
> >
> >> Let dmm deal with its current charter that does not include a word
> of
> >> multicast and if everything goes well we can come back and discuss
> dmm
> >> multicast.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Behcet

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</head>
<body bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Has the following taken 7=
.1, 7.2, and 7.3 into consideration?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">REQ7: Flexible multicast =
distribution</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">DMM should enable multica=
st solutions in flexible distribution scenario. This flexibility enables di=
fferent IP multicast flows with respect to a mobile host
 to be managed (e.g., subscribed, received and/or transmitted) using multip=
le endpoints.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Motivation: The motivatio=
n of this requirement is to consider multicast early so that solutions can =
be developed to overcome performance issues in multicast
 distribution scenario. The multicast solution may therefore avoid having m=
ulticast-capable access routers being restricted to manage all IP multicast=
 traffic relative to a host via a single endpoint (e.g., regular or tunnel =
interface), which would lead to
 the problems described in PS1 and PS6. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">H Anthony Chan<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> dmm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org=
]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>S=E9rgio Figueiredo<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 04, 2012 9:00 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> h chan<br>
<b>Cc:</b> dmm@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Anthony,<br>
<br>
I agree with your reasoning. As such, in my opinion the requirement can be =
added along those lines.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
S=E9rgio<br>
<br>
On 11/29/2012 03:51 PM, h chan wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Sergio,</span><o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The intentions of both 7.=
2 and 7.3 are to enable multicast solutions can be developed by the multimo=
b wg after dmm solutions have been developed by dmm wg.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In addition, I think mult=
imob wg is concerned not only to be able to develop &#8220;any&#8221; multi=
cast solutions, but the multicast solutions that will not have performance
 problems as investigated in the problem statements. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Therefore, I guess we can=
 converge all three requirements 7.1, 7.2, and 7.3 into one single requirem=
ent by taking into consideration all these three requirements.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">H Anthony Chan</span><o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> S=E9rgio Figueiredo [<a href=3D"mailto:sfigueired=
o@av.it.pt">mailto:sfigueiredo@av.it.pt</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 29, 2012 5:14 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> h chan<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Anthony,<br>
<br>
Sorry for the late answer. Please check my comments:<br>
<br>
On 11/28/2012 12:44 AM, h chan wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">So, if we rephrase 7.1 as=
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">REQ7.1: Flexible multicas=
t distribution</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">DMM solutions should enab=
le multicast services which are compatible with (flexible?) multicast distr=
ibution scenario. Etc.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">SF: It is not clear to me why you are introducing th=
e redundancy in the description. Do you mean it as it is?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">It will have the same int=
ention as REQ7.2 and REQ7.3.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Is that right?</span><o:p=
></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I would say that REQ7.1 has the major intention of a=
voiding the referred problems, while REQ7.2 and REQ7.3 serve the purpose of=
 stating multicast should &quot;somehow&quot; be supported in DMM solutions=
.
<br>
<br>
With REQ7.1, we want to assure the identified problems are avoided in a fut=
ure DMM solution.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
S=E9rgio<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">H Anthony Chan</span><o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext">
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a href=
=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>S=E9rgio Figueiredo<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 19, 2012 5:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Anthony,<br>
<br>
Thank you for trying to progress on this matter. I mostly agree with your a=
nalysis.<br>
<br>
As for the question you posed, first I would like to exactly understand wha=
t you mean with &quot;multicast distribution scenario&quot; in &quot;<span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&=
quot;;color:#1F497D">DMM solutions should enable multicast services which
 are compatible with multicast distribution scenario, etc.</span>&quot;. It=
 seems like there is no major difference between this and the &quot;<span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;;color:#1F497D">DMM solutions should enable solutions to support
 multicast services.</span>&quot; requirement? Aren't both expressing the n=
eed to enable multicast in a DMM solution?<br>
<br>
As you stated, &quot;neglecting&quot; the requirement 7.1 we proposed, lead=
s to the PSs you referred.&nbsp; So, while 7.2 and 7.3 express the need for=
 DMM solutions to allow deployment of multicast services, 7.1 concerns&nbsp=
; &quot;how&quot; IP multicast should be enabled in order to avoid
 the aforementioned PSs. The usage of the word &quot;flexible&quot;is expla=
ined by: <br>
<br>
&quot;<span style=3D"color:windowtext">This flexibility enables different I=
P multicast flows with respect to a mobile host to be managed (e.g., subscr=
ibed, received and/or transmitted) using
</span>multiple endpoints&quot;. <br>
<br>
In other words, compatibility with &quot;multicast distribution scenario&qu=
ot; doesn't necessarily avoid PS1 and PS6.<br>
<br>
Thank you and best regards,<br>
S=E9rgio<br>
<br>
On 11/19/2012 10:28 PM, h chan wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">There are 3 proposals for=
 multicast requirements. Before comparing these proposals, let us understan=
d what are the problems first. Two problem statements have
 been proposed:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">PS1 (revised): Non-optima=
l routes</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333399">Routing via a centrali=
zed anchor often results in a longer route. The problem is especially manif=
ested when accessing a local server or servers of a Content
 Delivery Network (CDN), <b>or when receiving / sending IP multicast packet=
s</b>.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333399">PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic</span>=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333399">IP multicast distribution=
 over architectures using IP mobility solutions&nbsp; may lead to convergen=
ce of duplicated multicast subscriptions towards the tunnel&#8217;s
 downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).&nbsp; Concretely, when multicast s=
ubscription for individual mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels, d=
uplicate multicast subscription(s) is prone to be received through differen=
t upstream paths. This problem is potentially
 more severe in a distributed mobility environment [draft-sfigueiredo-multi=
mob-use-case-dmm-03].</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#0070C0">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Then, let us see whether =
all the 3 REQ proposals have the same intention. In the following, I rephra=
se them to highlight their similarities.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">REQ7.1: Flexible multicas=
t distribution</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">DMM solutions should be c=
ompatible with flexible multicast distribution scenario. Etc.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The Motivation is to allo=
w flexibility in (enable) multicast solutions to solve the problems PS1 and=
 PS6 as explained in use cases already presented and discussed
 in multimob wg.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">REQ7.2:
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">DMM solutions should enab=
le solutions to support multicast traffic.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">(Original wording was &qu=
ot;The DMM (unicast) solution MUST be specified in such a way that it can b=
e extended to also support multicast traffic.&quot; I rephrase it
 to highlight the similarity with the other proposals and also changed the =
must to should.)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">REQ7.3:</span><o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">DMM solutions should enab=
le solutions to support multicast services.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Original wording was &#82=
20;DMM solutions should support multicast services &#8230; etc. Given that =
it is the scope of multimob and not dmm wg to provide the multicast
 solution, I think &#8220;support&#8221; here means &#8220;enable&#8221; so=
lutions to be developed (by multimob).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Similarity and subtle dif=
ferences: Both REQ7.2 and REQ7.3 want to enable multicast services. Yet the=
 explanation in REQ7.1 seems to indicate not just to enable
 any one multicast solution but also needs the flexibility in multicast sol=
ution. Not all multicast solutions are the same. Some of them results in PS=
1 or PS6.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Are there any are essenti=
al differences between:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In REQ7.1, DMM solutions =
should be compatible with flexible multicast distribution scenario, etc.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Versus</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">DMM solutions should enab=
le multicast services which are compatible with multicast distribution scen=
ario, etc.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">H Anthony Chan</span><o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a href=
=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Seil Jeon<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 19, 2012 5:15 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com">pierrick.seite@oran=
ge.com</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Hi Pierrick,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I&#8217;ve many times thought about your =
question. I would say how effectively should we deploy/support multicast ov=
er distributed mobility rather than distributed mobile multicast.
 As a result, you can find this deployment use case and gap analysis at <a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-=
03">
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03</a> p=
resented in multimob several times.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">In unicast DMM, main innovation is to dis=
tribute the anchor function at many access routers from single core. Follow=
ing architectural concept of DMM, flexible multicast distribution
 is one of multicast requirement resulted from the draft described above. <=
/span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">REQ8: Flexible multicast distribution<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">&quot;DMM solutions SHOULD be compatible with flexible multicast d=
istribution scenarios. This flexibility enables different IP multicast flow=
s with respect to a mobile host to be managed
 (e.g., subscribed, received and/or transmitted) using multiple endpoints&q=
uot;. <br>
<br>
Motivation: The motivation for this requirement is to enable flexibility in=
 multicast distribution. The multicast solution may therefore avoid having =
multicast-capable access routers being restricted to manage all IP multicas=
t traffic relative to a host via
 a single endpoint (e.g. regular or tunnel interface), which would lead to =
the problems described in PS1 and PS6.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">IP multicast distribu=
tion over architectures using IP mobility solutions&nbsp; may lead to conve=
rgence of duplicated multicast subscriptions towards the tunnel&#8217;s dow=
nstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).&nbsp; Concretely,
 when multicast subscription for individual mobile nodes is coupled with mo=
bility tunnels, duplicate multicast subscription(s) is prone to be received=
 through different upstream paths. This problem is potentially more severe =
in a distributed mobility environment
 [draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Seil</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
<a href=3D"mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com">pierrick.seite@orange.com</a> =
[<a href=3D"mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com">mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.=
com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 19, 2012 8:55 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> '<a href=3D"mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl">karagian@cs.utwente.n=
l</a>'; <a href=3D"mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt">
seiljeon@av.it.pt</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com=
">JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [DMM] Multicast requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi all,</span=
><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I tend to agree with Geor=
gious, however I still do not figure out what is the use-case for distribut=
ed mobile multicast (other than academic considerations)?
 Can someone give concrete example? </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I haven&#8217;t real all =
messages from this thread. So, maybe I missed important points.</span><o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">BR,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Pierrick</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span=
 lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a href=
=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> <a href=3D"mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl">karagian@cs.=
utwente.nl</a><br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> samedi 17 novembre 2012 13:01<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt">seiljeon@av.it.pt</a=
>; <a href=3D"mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com">
JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com</a><br>
<b>Cc&nbsp;:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Hi all,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I also agree that the DMM solution should someho=
w consider muticast deployment. However, I do not thnk that the DMM WG is t=
he right WG to provide the multicast based DMM solution!</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">One alternative solution will be to have a multi=
cast requirement that emphasizes the need of having extensibility hooks (po=
ssibilities) that can be used later on by the multimob WG
 to provide a </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">a multicast enabled DMM solution!</span><o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">So a requirement that specifies something like t=
he following could be used for this purpose:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&quot;The DMM (unicast) solution&nbsp;MUST be sp=
ecified in such a way that it can be extended to also support multicast tra=
ffic.&quot;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Best regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Georgios</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
 lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<div id=3D"x_divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Van:</=
span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;">
</span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma=
&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">[<a href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">dmm-bounces@iet=
f.org</a>] namens Seil Jeon [<a href=3D"mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt">seiljeon@=
av.it.pt</a>]<br>
<b>Verzonden:</b> vrijdag 16 november 2012 22:25<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Zuniga, Juan Carlos'<br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><=
span lang=3D"EN-US">dmm@ietf.org</span></a></span><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
<b>Onderwerp:</b> Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Hi Juan,<br>
<br>
I've been looked at changed flow of your proposed text but sorry now that m=
y<br>
comment is posted.<br>
At first time, I couldn't make sure however, on hearing Stig's description,=
<br>
it seems quite reasonable at the first step, not giving any restrictions bu=
t<br>
leaving some-specific for the DMM solution it does not support multicast.<b=
r>
<br>
On the other hand, it remains at a basic stage for the DMM solution to<br>
support multicast.<br>
So I think additional requirements need to be made for the DMM solution,<br=
>
accordingly. But of course, this should not also give any specific<br>
limitation and restriction but should be made towards the direction not<br>
limiting the benefits provided by distributed deployment.<br>
<br>
I hope to get more comments on this.<br>
<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Regards,<br>
<br>
Seil<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: </span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org=
"><span lang=3D"EN-US">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">[</span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font=
-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:dmm-bo=
unces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span lang=3D"EN-US">mailto:dmm-bounces@i=
etf.org</span></a></span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">]
 On Behalf Of<br>
Zuniga, Juan Carlos<br>
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 8:14 PM<br>
To: Stig Venaas; </span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.=
org"><span lang=3D"EN-US">dmm@ietf.org</span></a></span><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Stig Venaas [</span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:st=
ig@venaas.com" target=3D"_blank"><span lang=3D"EN-US">mailto:stig@venaas.co=
m</span></a></span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma=
&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">]<br>
&gt; Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 3:01 PM<br>
&gt; To: jouni korhonen<br>
&gt; Cc: </span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:sarikaya@ieee.org=
"><span lang=3D"EN-US">sarikaya@ieee.org</span></a></span><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">; Zun=
iga, Juan
 Carlos; Konstantinos Pentikousis; <br>
&gt; Peter McCann; </span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:dmm@iet=
f.org"><span lang=3D"EN-US">dmm@ietf.org</span></a></span><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On 11/15/2012 3:17 AM, jouni korhonen wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; On Nov 15, 2012, at 1:03 AM, Behcet Sarikaya wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; I think we are reading too much into multicast and unicast sh=
ould<br>
be<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; designed in an integrated manner.<br>
</span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma=
&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; The fact is that multicast is considered as an area of<br>
&gt; specialization,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; it requires knowledge of very different protocols than we are=
 <br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; accustomed to in mobility.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &quot;Requirement: DMM solutions SHOULD support multicast service=
s. If a<br>
&gt; specific DMM solution does not support multicast services, an <br>
&gt; explanation MUST be provided.&quot;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; This sounds good to me.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The main thing I want to achieve is what was describes as motivation <=
br>
&gt; earlier in this thread. Multicast should at least be considered when <=
br>
&gt; looking into DMM solutions, and not just an afterthought once the <br>
&gt; solution is decided.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Stig<br>
<br>
[JCZ] I fully agree with this. That was the intention of the proposed text.=
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Juan Carlos<br>
&nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; To me that reads basically &quot;do not break foundations for mul=
ticast<br>
&gt; unless you have a valid &amp; documented reason for it&quot;.&nbsp; If=
 we look e.g.<br>
&gt; into RFC625 multicast wording that is there very briefly but gives a <=
br>
&gt; hint to a developer where to head to. That is the level I would expect=
 <br>
&gt; DMM documents should aim to.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; - Jouni<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Let dmm deal with its current charter that does not include a=
 word<br>
&gt; of<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; multicast and if everything goes well we can come back and di=
scuss<br>
&gt; dmm<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; multicast.<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Behcet<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
dmm mailing list<br>
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From: h chan <h.anthony.chan@huawei.com>
To: LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO <lmcm@tid.es>, =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=E9rgio_Figueiredo?= <sfigueiredo@av.it.pt>, "dmm@ietf.org" <dmm@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [DMM] Multicast PS to requirements
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Instead of "especially," we can change to "for example." Non-optimal routes=
 can take place in other cases too.

H Anthony Chan

From: dmm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of LUIS =
MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 2:38 AM
To: S=E9rgio Figueiredo; dmm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast PS to requirements

Thanks Sergio, Seil,

Just a final comment. For PS1, not sure if the word "especially" in the sen=
tence "The problem is especially manifested ..." should be removed.

Regards,

Luis

De: dmm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] En nombre de S=E9rgi=
o Figueiredo
Enviado el: mi=E9rcoles, 21 de noviembre de 2012 0:21
Para: dmm@ietf.org
Asunto: Re: [DMM] Multicast PS to requirements

Hi Luis,

A few more comments on this inline:

Em 20-11-2012 19:46, LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO escreveu:
Hi Anthony,

some comments in line

Best regards,

Luis

De: dmm-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:dmm-bounces@i=
etf.org] En nombre de h chan
Enviado el: martes, 20 de noviembre de 2012 18:51
Para: S=E9rgio Figueiredo; dmm@ietf.org<mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
Asunto: [DMM] Multicast PS to requirements

Let us also use another thread to check for consensus of the PS from multim=
ob.

PS1 (revised): Non-optimal routes

Routing via a centralized anchor often results in a longer route. The probl=
em is especially manifested when accessing a local server or servers of a C=
ontent Delivery Network (CDN), or when receiving / sending IP multicast pac=
kets.

[Luis>>] This is correct if the multicast content is locally available. How=
ever this could not be always the case for multicast listeners, for a numbe=
r of reasons (for instance, conflict in the multicast address allocation be=
tween the Home Network and the DMM domain).
[SF] Sure, and the same applies to "accessing a local server a CDN" - it is=
 implicit that the content is locally available. But it can be improved as =
"when receiving locally available IP multicast or sending IP multicast".

PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic
IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility solutions  m=
ay lead to convergence of duplicated multicast subscriptions towards the tu=
nnel's downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).  Concretely, when multicast =
subscription for individual mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels, =
duplicate multicast subscription(s) is prone to be received through differe=
nt upstream paths. This problem is potentially more severe in a distributed=
 mobility environment [draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].

[Luis>>] This seems not to be a problem of the IP mobility solutions handli=
ng multicast traffic with mobility tunnels in general, but a problem of con=
sidering several upstream paths ending on the same mobility access router a=
s a consequence of extending tunnels from previousMAR to newMAR to forward =
the multicast traffic.
[SF] Exactly. Which is more than likely to happen in a DMM solution, where =
all "mobility entities" may act as "mobility access routers", and, after mo=
bility, we want to take advantage of the tunnel for the subscription. In th=
ose cases, care must be taken in order to not greatly magnify convergence p=
roblem observed e.g. in RFC6224.

Regards,
S=E9rgio


H Anthony Chan

From: dmm-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:dmm-bounces=
@ietf.org] On Behalf Of S=E9rgio Figueiredo
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 5:24 PM
To: dmm@ietf.org<mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements

Hi Anthony,

Thank you for trying to progress on this matter. I mostly agree with your a=
nalysis.

As for the question you posed, first I would like to exactly understand wha=
t you mean with "multicast distribution scenario" in "DMM solutions should =
enable multicast services which are compatible with multicast distribution =
scenario, etc.". It seems like there is no major difference between this an=
d the "DMM solutions should enable solutions to support multicast services.=
" requirement? Aren't both expressing the need to enable multicast in a DMM=
 solution?

As you stated, "neglecting" the requirement 7.1 we proposed, leads to the P=
Ss you referred.  So, while 7.2 and 7.3 express the need for DMM solutions =
to allow deployment of multicast services, 7.1 concerns  "how" IP multicast=
 should be enabled in order to avoid the aforementioned PSs. The usage of t=
he word "flexible"is explained by:

"This flexibility enables different IP multicast flows with respect to a mo=
bile host to be managed (e.g., subscribed, received and/or transmitted) usi=
ng multiple endpoints".

In other words, compatibility with "multicast distribution scenario" doesn'=
t necessarily avoid PS1 and PS6.

Thank you and best regards,
S=E9rgio

On 11/19/2012 10:28 PM, h chan wrote:
There are 3 proposals for multicast requirements. Before comparing these pr=
oposals, let us understand what are the problems first. Two problem stateme=
nts have been proposed:

PS1 (revised): Non-optimal routes

Routing via a centralized anchor often results in a longer route. The probl=
em is especially manifested when accessing a local server or servers of a C=
ontent Delivery Network (CDN), or when receiving / sending IP multicast pac=
kets.
PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic
IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility solutions  m=
ay lead to convergence of duplicated multicast subscriptions towards the tu=
nnel's downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).  Concretely, when multicast =
subscription for individual mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels, =
duplicate multicast subscription(s) is prone to be received through differe=
nt upstream paths. This problem is potentially more severe in a distributed=
 mobility environment [draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].

Then, let us see whether all the 3 REQ proposals have the same intention. I=
n the following, I rephrase them to highlight their similarities.

REQ7.1: Flexible multicast distribution
DMM solutions should be compatible with flexible multicast distribution sce=
nario. Etc.
The Motivation is to allow flexibility in (enable) multicast solutions to s=
olve the problems PS1 and PS6 as explained in use cases already presented a=
nd discussed in multimob wg.

REQ7.2:
DMM solutions should enable solutions to support multicast traffic.

(Original wording was "The DMM (unicast) solution MUST be specified in such=
 a way that it can be extended to also support multicast traffic." I rephra=
se it to highlight the similarity with the other proposals and also changed=
 the must to should.)

REQ7.3:
DMM solutions should enable solutions to support multicast services.

Original wording was "DMM solutions should support multicast services ... e=
tc. Given that it is the scope of multimob and not dmm wg to provide the mu=
lticast solution, I think "support" here means "enable" solutions to be dev=
eloped (by multimob).

Similarity and subtle differences: Both REQ7.2 and REQ7.3 want to enable mu=
lticast services. Yet the explanation in REQ7.1 seems to indicate not just =
to enable any one multicast solution but also needs the flexibility in mult=
icast solution. Not all multicast solutions are the same. Some of them resu=
lts in PS1 or PS6.

Are there any are essential differences between:
In REQ7.1, DMM solutions should be compatible with flexible multicast distr=
ibution scenario, etc.
Versus
DMM solutions should enable multicast services which are compatible with mu=
lticast distribution scenario, etc.

H Anthony Chan

From: dmm-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:dmm-bounces=
@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Seil Jeon
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 5:15 AM
To: pierrick.seite@orange.com<mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com>
Cc: dmm@ietf.org<mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements

Hi Pierrick,

I've many times thought about your question. I would say how effectively sh=
ould we deploy/support multicast over distributed mobility rather than dist=
ributed mobile multicast. As a result, you can find this deployment use cas=
e and gap analysis at http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sfigueiredo-multimob=
-use-case-dmm-03 presented in multimob several times.

In unicast DMM, main innovation is to distribute the anchor function at man=
y access routers from single core. Following architectural concept of DMM, =
flexible multicast distribution is one of multicast requirement resulted fr=
om the draft described above.


REQ8: Flexible multicast distribution
"DMM solutions SHOULD be compatible with flexible multicast distribution sc=
enarios. This flexibility enables different IP multicast flows with respect=
 to a mobile host to be managed (e.g., subscribed, received and/or transmit=
ted) using multiple endpoints".

Motivation: The motivation for this requirement is to enable flexibility in=
 multicast distribution. The multicast solution may therefore avoid having =
multicast-capable access routers being restricted to manage all IP multicas=
t traffic relative to a host via a single endpoint (e.g. regular or tunnel =
interface), which would lead to the problems described in PS1 and PS6.
PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic
IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility solutions  m=
ay lead to convergence of duplicated multicast subscriptions towards the tu=
nnel's downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).  Concretely, when multicast =
subscription for individual mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels, =
duplicate multicast subscription(s) is prone to be received through differe=
nt upstream paths. This problem is potentially more severe in a distributed=
 mobility environment [draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].

Regards,

Seil

From: pierrick.seite@orange.com<mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com> [mailto:p=
ierrick.seite@orange.com]
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 8:55 AM
To: 'karagian@cs.utwente.nl<mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl>'; seiljeon@av.it=
.pt<mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt>; JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com<mailto:Ju=
anCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com>
Cc: dmm@ietf.org<mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [DMM] Multicast requirements

Hi all,

I tend to agree with Georgious, however I still do not figure out what is t=
he use-case for distributed mobile multicast (other than academic considera=
tions)? Can someone give concrete example?

I haven't real all messages from this thread. So, maybe I missed important =
points.

BR,
Pierrick

De : dmm-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:dmm-bounces@=
ietf.org] De la part de karagian@cs.utwente.nl<mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.n=
l>
Envoy=E9 : samedi 17 novembre 2012 13:01
=C0 : seiljeon@av.it.pt<mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt>; JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterD=
igital.com<mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com>
Cc : dmm@ietf.org<mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
Objet : Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements


Hi all,



I also agree that the DMM solution should somehow consider muticast deploym=
ent. However, I do not thnk that the DMM WG is the right WG to provide the =
multicast based DMM solution!



One alternative solution will be to have a multicast requirement that empha=
sizes the need of having extensibility hooks (possibilities) that can be us=
ed later on by the multimob WG to provide a

a multicast enabled DMM solution!





So a requirement that specifies something like the following could be used =
for this purpose:



"The DMM (unicast) solution MUST be specified in such a way that it can be =
extended to also support multicast traffic."





Best regards,

Georgios







________________________________
Van: dmm-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> [dmm-bounces@ietf.or=
g<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org>] namens Seil Jeon [seiljeon@av.it.pt<mailto:=
seiljeon@av.it.pt>]
Verzonden: vrijdag 16 november 2012 22:25
To: 'Zuniga, Juan Carlos'
Cc: dmm@ietf.org<mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
Onderwerp: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements
Hi Juan,

I've been looked at changed flow of your proposed text but sorry now that m=
y
comment is posted.
At first time, I couldn't make sure however, on hearing Stig's description,
it seems quite reasonable at the first step, not giving any restrictions bu=
t
leaving some-specific for the DMM solution it does not support multicast.

On the other hand, it remains at a basic stage for the DMM solution to
support multicast.
So I think additional requirements need to be made for the DMM solution,
accordingly. But of course, this should not also give any specific
limitation and restriction but should be made towards the direction not
limiting the benefits provided by distributed deployment.

I hope to get more comments on this.

Regards,

Seil


-----Original Message-----
From: dmm-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:dmm-bounces=
@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Zuniga, Juan Carlos
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 8:14 PM
To: Stig Venaas; dmm@ietf.org<mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stig Venaas [mailto:stig@venaas.com]
> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 3:01 PM
> To: jouni korhonen
> Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org<mailto:sarikaya@ieee.org>; Zuniga, Juan Carlos; Kon=
stantinos Pentikousis;
> Peter McCann; dmm@ietf.org<mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements
>
> On 11/15/2012 3:17 AM, jouni korhonen wrote:
> >
> > On Nov 15, 2012, at 1:03 AM, Behcet Sarikaya wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> I think we are reading too much into multicast and unicast should
be
> >> designed in an integrated manner.
> >>
> >> The fact is that multicast is considered as an area of
> specialization,
> >> it requires knowledge of very different protocols than we are
> >> accustomed to in mobility.
> >
> > "Requirement: DMM solutions SHOULD support multicast services. If a
> specific DMM solution does not support multicast services, an
> explanation MUST be provided."
>
> This sounds good to me.
>
> The main thing I want to achieve is what was describes as motivation
> earlier in this thread. Multicast should at least be considered when
> looking into DMM solutions, and not just an afterthought once the
> solution is decided.
>
> Stig

[JCZ] I fully agree with this. That was the intention of the proposed text.

Regards,

Juan Carlos

>
> > To me that reads basically "do not break foundations for multicast
> unless you have a valid & documented reason for it".  If we look e.g.
> into RFC625 multicast wording that is there very briefly but gives a
> hint to a developer where to head to. That is the level I would expect
> DMM documents should aim to.
> >
> > - Jouni
> >
> >
> >> Let dmm deal with its current charter that does not include a word
> of
> >> multicast and if everything goes well we can come back and discuss
> dmm
> >> multicast.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Behcet

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</head>
<body bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Instead of &#8220;especia=
lly,&#8221; we can change to &#8220;for example.&#8221; Non-optimal routes =
can take place in other cases too.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">H Anthony Chan<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> dmm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org=
]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 21, 2012 2:38 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> S=E9rgio Figueiredo; dmm@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] Multicast PS to requirements<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thanks Sergio, Seil,</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Just a final comment. For=
 PS1, not sure if the word &#8220;especially&#8221; in the sentence &#8220;=
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333399">The
 problem is especially manifested &#8230;</span><span style=3D"font-size:11=
.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">=
&#8221; should be removed.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Luis</span><o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"ES" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De:</spa=
n></b><span lang=3D"ES" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&=
quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> dmm-bounces@ietf.org [mailt=
o:dmm-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>En nombre de </b>S=E9rgio Figueiredo<br>
<b>Enviado el:</b> mi=E9rcoles, 21 de noviembre de 2012 0:21<br>
<b>Para:</b> dmm@ietf.org<br>
<b>Asunto:</b> Re: [DMM] Multicast PS to requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Luis,<br>
<br>
A few more comments on this inline:<br>
<br>
Em 20-11-2012 19:46, LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO escreveu:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi Anthony,
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">some comments in line
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards,</span><o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Luis</span><o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"ES" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De:</spa=
n></b><span lang=3D"ES" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&=
quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a href=
=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>En nombre de </b>h chan<br>
<b>Enviado el:</b> martes, 20 de noviembre de 2012 18:51<br>
<b>Para:</b> S=E9rgio Figueiredo; <a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.=
org</a><br>
<b>Asunto:</b> [DMM] Multicast PS to requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Let us also use another t=
hread to check for consensus of the PS from multimob.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">PS1 (revised): Non-optima=
l routes</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333399">Routing via a centrali=
zed anchor often results in a longer route. The problem is especially manif=
ested when accessing a local server or servers of a Content
 Delivery Network (CDN), <b>or when receiving / sending IP multicast packet=
s</b>.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family=
:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">[Luis&gt;&gt;] T=
his is correct if the multicast content is locally available. However this =
could not be always the case for multicast listeners, for a number
 of reasons (for instance, conflict in the multicast address allocation bet=
ween the Home Network and the DMM domain).
</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">[SF] Sure, and the sa=
me applies to &quot;accessing a local server a CDN&quot; - it is implicit t=
hat the content is locally available. But it can be improved as &quot;when =
receiving locally available IP multicast or sending
 IP multicast&quot;.<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333399">PS6: Duplicate multicast =
traffic</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333399">IP multicast distribution=
 over architectures using IP mobility solutions&nbsp; may lead to convergen=
ce of duplicated multicast subscriptions towards the tunnel&#8217;s
 downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).&nbsp; Concretely, when multicast s=
ubscription for individual mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels, d=
uplicate multicast subscription(s) is prone to be received through differen=
t upstream paths. This problem is potentially
 more severe in a distributed mobility environment [draft-sfigueiredo-multi=
mob-use-case-dmm-03].</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></i></=
b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">[Luis&gt;&gt;] This=
 seems not to be a problem of the IP mobility solutions handling multicast =
traffic with mobility tunnels in general, but a problem of considering
 several upstream paths ending on the same mobility access router as a cons=
equence of extending tunnels from previousMAR to newMAR to forward the mult=
icast traffic.</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">[SF] Exactly. Which i=
s more than likely to happen in a DMM solution, where all &quot;mobility en=
tities&quot; may act as &quot;mobility access routers&quot;, and, after mob=
ility, we want to take advantage of the tunnel for the subscription.
 In those cases, care must be taken in order to not greatly magnify converg=
ence problem observed e.g. in RFC6224.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
S=E9rgio<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">H Anthony Chan</span><o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext">
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a href=
=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>S=E9rgio Figueiredo<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 19, 2012 5:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Anthony,<br>
<br>
Thank you for trying to progress on this matter. I mostly agree with your a=
nalysis.<br>
<br>
As for the question you posed, first I would like to exactly understand wha=
t you mean with &quot;multicast distribution scenario&quot; in &quot;<span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&=
quot;;color:#1F497D">DMM solutions should enable multicast services which
 are compatible with multicast distribution scenario, etc.</span>&quot;. It=
 seems like there is no major difference between this and the &quot;<span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;;color:#1F497D">DMM solutions should enable solutions to support
 multicast services.</span>&quot; requirement? Aren't both expressing the n=
eed to enable multicast in a DMM solution?<br>
<br>
As you stated, &quot;neglecting&quot; the requirement 7.1 we proposed, lead=
s to the PSs you referred.&nbsp; So, while 7.2 and 7.3 express the need for=
 DMM solutions to allow deployment of multicast services, 7.1 concerns&nbsp=
; &quot;how&quot; IP multicast should be enabled in order to avoid
 the aforementioned PSs. The usage of the word &quot;flexible&quot;is expla=
ined by: <br>
<br>
&quot;<span style=3D"color:windowtext">This flexibility enables different I=
P multicast flows with respect to a mobile host to be managed (e.g., subscr=
ibed, received and/or transmitted) using
</span>multiple endpoints&quot;. <br>
<br>
In other words, compatibility with &quot;multicast distribution scenario&qu=
ot; doesn't necessarily avoid PS1 and PS6.<br>
<br>
Thank you and best regards,<br>
S=E9rgio<br>
<br>
On 11/19/2012 10:28 PM, h chan wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">There are 3 proposals for=
 multicast requirements. Before comparing these proposals, let us understan=
d what are the problems first. Two problem statements have
 been proposed:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">PS1 (revised): Non-optima=
l routes</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333399">Routing via a centrali=
zed anchor often results in a longer route. The problem is especially manif=
ested when accessing a local server or servers of a Content
 Delivery Network (CDN), <b>or when receiving / sending IP multicast packet=
s</b>.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333399">PS6: Duplicate multicast =
traffic</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333399">IP multicast distribution=
 over architectures using IP mobility solutions&nbsp; may lead to convergen=
ce of duplicated multicast subscriptions towards the tunnel&#8217;s
 downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).&nbsp; Concretely, when multicast s=
ubscription for individual mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels, d=
uplicate multicast subscription(s) is prone to be received through differen=
t upstream paths. This problem is potentially
 more severe in a distributed mobility environment [draft-sfigueiredo-multi=
mob-use-case-dmm-03].</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#0070C0">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Then, let us see whether =
all the 3 REQ proposals have the same intention. In the following, I rephra=
se them to highlight their similarities.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">REQ7.1: Flexible multicas=
t distribution</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">DMM solutions should be c=
ompatible with flexible multicast distribution scenario. Etc.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The Motivation is to allo=
w flexibility in (enable) multicast solutions to solve the problems PS1 and=
 PS6 as explained in use cases already presented and discussed
 in multimob wg.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">REQ7.2:
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">DMM solutions should enab=
le solutions to support multicast traffic.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">(Original wording was &qu=
ot;The DMM (unicast) solution MUST be specified in such a way that it can b=
e extended to also support multicast traffic.&quot; I rephrase it
 to highlight the similarity with the other proposals and also changed the =
must to should.)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">REQ7.3:</span><o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">DMM solutions should enab=
le solutions to support multicast services.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Original wording was &#82=
20;DMM solutions should support multicast services &#8230; etc. Given that =
it is the scope of multimob and not dmm wg to provide the multicast
 solution, I think &#8220;support&#8221; here means &#8220;enable&#8221; so=
lutions to be developed (by multimob).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Similarity and subtle dif=
ferences: Both REQ7.2 and REQ7.3 want to enable multicast services. Yet the=
 explanation in REQ7.1 seems to indicate not just to enable
 any one multicast solution but also needs the flexibility in multicast sol=
ution. Not all multicast solutions are the same. Some of them results in PS=
1 or PS6.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Are there any are essenti=
al differences between:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In REQ7.1, DMM solutions =
should be compatible with flexible multicast distribution scenario, etc.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Versus</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">DMM solutions should enab=
le multicast services which are compatible with multicast distribution scen=
ario, etc.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">H Anthony Chan</span><o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a href=
=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Seil Jeon<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 19, 2012 5:15 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com">pierrick.seite@oran=
ge.com</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Hi Pierrick,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I&#8217;ve many times thought about your =
question. I would say how effectively should we deploy/support multicast ov=
er distributed mobility rather than distributed mobile multicast.
 As a result, you can find this deployment use case and gap analysis at <a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-=
03">
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03</a> p=
resented in multimob several times.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">In unicast DMM, main innovation is to dis=
tribute the anchor function at many access routers from single core. Follow=
ing architectural concept of DMM, flexible multicast distribution
 is one of multicast requirement resulted from the draft described above. <=
/span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">REQ8: Flexible multicast distribution<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&quot;DMM solutions SHOULD be compatible with flexib=
le multicast distribution scenarios. This flexibility enables different IP =
multicast flows with respect to a mobile host to be managed (e.g., subscrib=
ed, received and/or transmitted) using
 multiple endpoints&quot;. <br>
<br>
Motivation: The motivation for this requirement is to enable flexibility in=
 multicast distribution. The multicast solution may therefore avoid having =
multicast-capable access routers being restricted to manage all IP multicas=
t traffic relative to a host via
 a single endpoint (e.g. regular or tunnel interface), which would lead to =
the problems described in PS1 and PS6.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">IP multicast distribu=
tion over architectures using IP mobility solutions&nbsp; may lead to conve=
rgence of duplicated multicast subscriptions towards the tunnel&#8217;s dow=
nstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).&nbsp; Concretely,
 when multicast subscription for individual mobile nodes is coupled with mo=
bility tunnels, duplicate multicast subscription(s) is prone to be received=
 through different upstream paths. This problem is potentially more severe =
in a distributed mobility environment
 [draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Seil</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
<a href=3D"mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com">pierrick.seite@orange.com</a> =
[<a href=3D"mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com">mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.=
com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 19, 2012 8:55 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> '<a href=3D"mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl">karagian@cs.utwente.n=
l</a>'; <a href=3D"mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt">
seiljeon@av.it.pt</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com=
">JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [DMM] Multicast requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi all,</span=
><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I tend to agree with Geor=
gious, however I still do not figure out what is the use-case for distribut=
ed mobile multicast (other than academic considerations)?
 Can someone give concrete example? </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I haven&#8217;t real all =
messages from this thread. So, maybe I missed important points.</span><o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">BR,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Pierrick</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span=
 lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a href=
=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> <a href=3D"mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl">karagian@cs.=
utwente.nl</a><br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> samedi 17 novembre 2012 13:01<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt">seiljeon@av.it.pt</a=
>; <a href=3D"mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com">
JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com</a><br>
<b>Cc&nbsp;:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Hi all,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I also agree that the DMM solution should someho=
w consider muticast deployment. However, I do not thnk that the DMM WG is t=
he right WG to provide the multicast based DMM solution!</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">One alternative solution will be to have a multi=
cast requirement that emphasizes the need of having extensibility hooks (po=
ssibilities) that can be used later on by the multimob WG
 to provide a </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">a multicast enabled DMM solution!</span><o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">So a requirement that specifies something like t=
he following could be used for this purpose:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&quot;The DMM (unicast) solution&nbsp;MUST be sp=
ecified in such a way that it can be extended to also support multicast tra=
ffic.&quot;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Best regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Georgios</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
 lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<div id=3D"x_divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Van:</=
span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;">
</span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma=
&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">[<a href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">dmm-bounces@iet=
f.org</a>] namens Seil Jeon [<a href=3D"mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt">seiljeon@=
av.it.pt</a>]<br>
<b>Verzonden:</b> vrijdag 16 november 2012 22:25<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Zuniga, Juan Carlos'<br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><=
span lang=3D"EN-US">dmm@ietf.org</span></a></span><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
<b>Onderwerp:</b> Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Hi Juan,<br>
<br>
I've been looked at changed flow of your proposed text but sorry now that m=
y<br>
comment is posted.<br>
At first time, I couldn't make sure however, on hearing Stig's description,=
<br>
it seems quite reasonable at the first step, not giving any restrictions bu=
t<br>
leaving some-specific for the DMM solution it does not support multicast.<b=
r>
<br>
On the other hand, it remains at a basic stage for the DMM solution to<br>
support multicast.<br>
So I think additional requirements need to be made for the DMM solution,<br=
>
accordingly. But of course, this should not also give any specific<br>
limitation and restriction but should be made towards the direction not<br>
limiting the benefits provided by distributed deployment.<br>
<br>
I hope to get more comments on this.<br>
<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Regards,<br>
<br>
Seil<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: </span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org=
"><span lang=3D"EN-US">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">[</span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font=
-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:dmm-bo=
unces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span lang=3D"EN-US">mailto:dmm-bounces@i=
etf.org</span></a></span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">]
 On Behalf Of<br>
Zuniga, Juan Carlos<br>
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 8:14 PM<br>
To: Stig Venaas; </span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.=
org"><span lang=3D"EN-US">dmm@ietf.org</span></a></span><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Stig Venaas [</span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:st=
ig@venaas.com" target=3D"_blank"><span lang=3D"EN-US">mailto:stig@venaas.co=
m</span></a></span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma=
&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">]<br>
&gt; Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 3:01 PM<br>
&gt; To: jouni korhonen<br>
&gt; Cc: </span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:sarikaya@ieee.org=
"><span lang=3D"EN-US">sarikaya@ieee.org</span></a></span><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">; Zun=
iga, Juan
 Carlos; Konstantinos Pentikousis; <br>
&gt; Peter McCann; </span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:dmm@iet=
f.org"><span lang=3D"EN-US">dmm@ietf.org</span></a></span><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On 11/15/2012 3:17 AM, jouni korhonen wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; On Nov 15, 2012, at 1:03 AM, Behcet Sarikaya wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; I think we are reading too much into multicast and unicast sh=
ould<br>
be<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; designed in an integrated manner.<br>
</span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma=
&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; The fact is that multicast is considered as an area of<br>
&gt; specialization,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; it requires knowledge of very different protocols than we are=
 <br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; accustomed to in mobility.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &quot;Requirement: DMM solutions SHOULD support multicast service=
s. If a<br>
&gt; specific DMM solution does not support multicast services, an <br>
&gt; explanation MUST be provided.&quot;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; This sounds good to me.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The main thing I want to achieve is what was describes as motivation <=
br>
&gt; earlier in this thread. Multicast should at least be considered when <=
br>
&gt; looking into DMM solutions, and not just an afterthought once the <br>
&gt; solution is decided.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Stig<br>
<br>
[JCZ] I fully agree with this. That was the intention of the proposed text.=
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Juan Carlos<br>
&nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; To me that reads basically &quot;do not break foundations for mul=
ticast<br>
&gt; unless you have a valid &amp; documented reason for it&quot;.&nbsp; If=
 we look e.g.<br>
&gt; into RFC625 multicast wording that is there very briefly but gives a <=
br>
&gt; hint to a developer where to head to. That is the level I would expect=
 <br>
&gt; DMM documents should aim to.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; - Jouni<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Let dmm deal with its current charter that does not include a=
 word<br>
&gt; of<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; multicast and if everything goes well we can come back and di=
scuss<br>
&gt; dmm<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; multicast.<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Behcet<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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From: h chan <h.anthony.chan@huawei.com>
To: "pierrick.seite@orange.com" <pierrick.seite@orange.com>, "'LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO'" <lmcm@tid.es>, =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=E9rgio_Figueiredo?= <sfigueiredo@av.it.pt>, "dmm@ietf.org" <dmm@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [DMM] Multicast PS to requirements
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Is there consensus for PS1 now?

PS1 (revised): Non-optimal routes

Routing via a centralized anchor often results in a longer route. The probl=
em is manifested, for example, when accessing a local server or servers of =
a Content Delivery Network (CDN), or when receiving locally available IP mu=
lticast or sending IP multicast packets.

H Anthony Chan

From: dmm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of pierr=
ick.seite@orange.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 3:37 AM
To: 'LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO'; S=E9rgio Figueiredo; dmm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast PS to requirements

Hi,

Referring to CDN does not make any assumptions on the delivery mode. So, if=
 you really want to stress multicast, I suggest the following:

Routing via a centralized anchor often results in a longer route. The probl=
em is [especially] manifested when accessing a local server or servers of a=
 Content Delivery Network (CDN), including both unicast and multicast deliv=
ery mode.

BR,
Pierrick

De : dmm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de LUIS =
MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO
Envoy=E9 : mercredi 21 novembre 2012 09:38
=C0 : S=E9rgio Figueiredo; dmm@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [DMM] Multicast PS to requirements

Thanks Sergio, Seil,

Just a final comment. For PS1, not sure if the word "especially" in the sen=
tence "The problem is especially manifested ..." should be removed.

Regards,

Luis

De: dmm-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:dmm-bounces@i=
etf.org] En nombre de S=E9rgio Figueiredo
Enviado el: mi=E9rcoles, 21 de noviembre de 2012 0:21
Para: dmm@ietf.org<mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
Asunto: Re: [DMM] Multicast PS to requirements

Hi Luis,

A few more comments on this inline:

Em 20-11-2012 19:46, LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO escreveu:
Hi Anthony,

some comments in line

Best regards,

Luis

De: dmm-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:dmm-bounces@i=
etf.org] En nombre de h chan
Enviado el: martes, 20 de noviembre de 2012 18:51
Para: S=E9rgio Figueiredo; dmm@ietf.org<mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
Asunto: [DMM] Multicast PS to requirements

Let us also use another thread to check for consensus of the PS from multim=
ob.

PS1 (revised): Non-optimal routes

Routing via a centralized anchor often results in a longer route. The probl=
em is especially manifested when accessing a local server or servers of a C=
ontent Delivery Network (CDN), or when receiving / sending IP multicast pac=
kets.

[Luis>>] This is correct if the multicast content is locally available. How=
ever this could not be always the case for multicast listeners, for a numbe=
r of reasons (for instance, conflict in the multicast address allocation be=
tween the Home Network and the DMM domain).
[SF] Sure, and the same applies to "accessing a local server a CDN" - it is=
 implicit that the content is locally available. But it can be improved as =
"when receiving locally available IP multicast or sending IP multicast".
PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic
IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility solutions  m=
ay lead to convergence of duplicated multicast subscriptions towards the tu=
nnel's downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).  Concretely, when multicast =
subscription for individual mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels, =
duplicate multicast subscription(s) is prone to be received through differe=
nt upstream paths. This problem is potentially more severe in a distributed=
 mobility environment [draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].

[Luis>>] This seems not to be a problem of the IP mobility solutions handli=
ng multicast traffic with mobility tunnels in general, but a problem of con=
sidering several upstream paths ending on the same mobility access router a=
s a consequence of extending tunnels from previousMAR to newMAR to forward =
the multicast traffic.
[SF] Exactly. Which is more than likely to happen in a DMM solution, where =
all "mobility entities" may act as "mobility access routers", and, after mo=
bility, we want to take advantage of the tunnel for the subscription. In th=
ose cases, care must be taken in order to not greatly magnify convergence p=
roblem observed e.g. in RFC6224.

Regards,
S=E9rgio

H Anthony Chan

From: dmm-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:dmm-bounces=
@ietf.org] On Behalf Of S=E9rgio Figueiredo
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 5:24 PM
To: dmm@ietf.org<mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements

Hi Anthony,

Thank you for trying to progress on this matter. I mostly agree with your a=
nalysis.

As for the question you posed, first I would like to exactly understand wha=
t you mean with "multicast distribution scenario" in "DMM solutions should =
enable multicast services which are compatible with multicast distribution =
scenario, etc.". It seems like there is no major difference between this an=
d the "DMM solutions should enable solutions to support multicast services.=
" requirement? Aren't both expressing the need to enable multicast in a DMM=
 solution?

As you stated, "neglecting" the requirement 7.1 we proposed, leads to the P=
Ss you referred.  So, while 7.2 and 7.3 express the need for DMM solutions =
to allow deployment of multicast services, 7.1 concerns  "how" IP multicast=
 should be enabled in order to avoid the aforementioned PSs. The usage of t=
he word "flexible"is explained by:

"This flexibility enables different IP multicast flows with respect to a mo=
bile host to be managed (e.g., subscribed, received and/or transmitted) usi=
ng multiple endpoints".

In other words, compatibility with "multicast distribution scenario" doesn'=
t necessarily avoid PS1 and PS6.

Thank you and best regards,
S=E9rgio

On 11/19/2012 10:28 PM, h chan wrote:
There are 3 proposals for multicast requirements. Before comparing these pr=
oposals, let us understand what are the problems first. Two problem stateme=
nts have been proposed:

PS1 (revised): Non-optimal routes

Routing via a centralized anchor often results in a longer route. The probl=
em is especially manifested when accessing a local server or servers of a C=
ontent Delivery Network (CDN), or when receiving / sending IP multicast pac=
kets.
PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic
IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility solutions  m=
ay lead to convergence of duplicated multicast subscriptions towards the tu=
nnel's downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).  Concretely, when multicast =
subscription for individual mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels, =
duplicate multicast subscription(s) is prone to be received through differe=
nt upstream paths. This problem is potentially more severe in a distributed=
 mobility environment [draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].

Then, let us see whether all the 3 REQ proposals have the same intention. I=
n the following, I rephrase them to highlight their similarities.

REQ7.1: Flexible multicast distribution
DMM solutions should be compatible with flexible multicast distribution sce=
nario. Etc.
The Motivation is to allow flexibility in (enable) multicast solutions to s=
olve the problems PS1 and PS6 as explained in use cases already presented a=
nd discussed in multimob wg.

REQ7.2:
DMM solutions should enable solutions to support multicast traffic.

(Original wording was "The DMM (unicast) solution MUST be specified in such=
 a way that it can be extended to also support multicast traffic." I rephra=
se it to highlight the similarity with the other proposals and also changed=
 the must to should.)

REQ7.3:
DMM solutions should enable solutions to support multicast services.

Original wording was "DMM solutions should support multicast services ... e=
tc. Given that it is the scope of multimob and not dmm wg to provide the mu=
lticast solution, I think "support" here means "enable" solutions to be dev=
eloped (by multimob).

Similarity and subtle differences: Both REQ7.2 and REQ7.3 want to enable mu=
lticast services. Yet the explanation in REQ7.1 seems to indicate not just =
to enable any one multicast solution but also needs the flexibility in mult=
icast solution. Not all multicast solutions are the same. Some of them resu=
lts in PS1 or PS6.

Are there any are essential differences between:
In REQ7.1, DMM solutions should be compatible with flexible multicast distr=
ibution scenario, etc.
Versus
DMM solutions should enable multicast services which are compatible with mu=
lticast distribution scenario, etc.

H Anthony Chan

From: dmm-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:dmm-bounces=
@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Seil Jeon
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 5:15 AM
To: pierrick.seite@orange.com<mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com>
Cc: dmm@ietf.org<mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements

Hi Pierrick,

I've many times thought about your question. I would say how effectively sh=
ould we deploy/support multicast over distributed mobility rather than dist=
ributed mobile multicast. As a result, you can find this deployment use cas=
e and gap analysis at http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sfigueiredo-multimob=
-use-case-dmm-03 presented in multimob several times.

In unicast DMM, main innovation is to distribute the anchor function at man=
y access routers from single core. Following architectural concept of DMM, =
flexible multicast distribution is one of multicast requirement resulted fr=
om the draft described above.


REQ8: Flexible multicast distribution
"DMM solutions SHOULD be compatible with flexible multicast distribution sc=
enarios. This flexibility enables different IP multicast flows with respect=
 to a mobile host to be managed (e.g., subscribed, received and/or transmit=
ted) using multiple endpoints".

Motivation: The motivation for this requirement is to enable flexibility in=
 multicast distribution. The multicast solution may therefore avoid having =
multicast-capable access routers being restricted to manage all IP multicas=
t traffic relative to a host via a single endpoint (e.g. regular or tunnel =
interface), which would lead to the problems described in PS1 and PS6.
PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic
IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility solutions  m=
ay lead to convergence of duplicated multicast subscriptions towards the tu=
nnel's downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).  Concretely, when multicast =
subscription for individual mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels, =
duplicate multicast subscription(s) is prone to be received through differe=
nt upstream paths. This problem is potentially more severe in a distributed=
 mobility environment [draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].
Regards,

Seil

From: pierrick.seite@orange.com<mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com> [mailto:p=
ierrick.seite@orange.com]
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 8:55 AM
To: 'karagian@cs.utwente.nl<mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl>'; seiljeon@av.it=
.pt<mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt>; JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com<mailto:Ju=
anCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com>
Cc: dmm@ietf.org<mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [DMM] Multicast requirements

Hi all,

I tend to agree with Georgious, however I still do not figure out what is t=
he use-case for distributed mobile multicast (other than academic considera=
tions)? Can someone give concrete example?

I haven't real all messages from this thread. So, maybe I missed important =
points.

BR,
Pierrick

De : dmm-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:dmm-bounces@=
ietf.org] De la part de karagian@cs.utwente.nl<mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.n=
l>
Envoy=E9 : samedi 17 novembre 2012 13:01
=C0 : seiljeon@av.it.pt<mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt>; JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterD=
igital.com<mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com>
Cc : dmm@ietf.org<mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
Objet : Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements


Hi all,



I also agree that the DMM solution should somehow consider muticast deploym=
ent. However, I do not thnk that the DMM WG is the right WG to provide the =
multicast based DMM solution!



One alternative solution will be to have a multicast requirement that empha=
sizes the need of having extensibility hooks (possibilities) that can be us=
ed later on by the multimob WG to provide a

a multicast enabled DMM solution!





So a requirement that specifies something like the following could be used =
for this purpose:



"The DMM (unicast) solution MUST be specified in such a way that it can be =
extended to also support multicast traffic."





Best regards,

Georgios







________________________________
Van: dmm-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> [dmm-bounces@ietf.or=
g<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org>] namens Seil Jeon [seiljeon@av.it.pt<mailto:=
seiljeon@av.it.pt>]
Verzonden: vrijdag 16 november 2012 22:25
To: 'Zuniga, Juan Carlos'
Cc: dmm@ietf.org<mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
Onderwerp: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements
Hi Juan,

I've been looked at changed flow of your proposed text but sorry now that m=
y
comment is posted.
At first time, I couldn't make sure however, on hearing Stig's description,
it seems quite reasonable at the first step, not giving any restrictions bu=
t
leaving some-specific for the DMM solution it does not support multicast.

On the other hand, it remains at a basic stage for the DMM solution to
support multicast.
So I think additional requirements need to be made for the DMM solution,
accordingly. But of course, this should not also give any specific
limitation and restriction but should be made towards the direction not
limiting the benefits provided by distributed deployment.

I hope to get more comments on this.

Regards,

Seil


-----Original Message-----
From: dmm-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:dmm-bounces=
@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Zuniga, Juan Carlos
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 8:14 PM
To: Stig Venaas; dmm@ietf.org<mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stig Venaas [mailto:stig@venaas.com]
> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 3:01 PM
> To: jouni korhonen
> Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org<mailto:sarikaya@ieee.org>; Zuniga, Juan Carlos; Kon=
stantinos Pentikousis;
> Peter McCann; dmm@ietf.org<mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements
>
> On 11/15/2012 3:17 AM, jouni korhonen wrote:
> >
> > On Nov 15, 2012, at 1:03 AM, Behcet Sarikaya wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> I think we are reading too much into multicast and unicast should
be
> >> designed in an integrated manner.
> >>
> >> The fact is that multicast is considered as an area of
> specialization,
> >> it requires knowledge of very different protocols than we are
> >> accustomed to in mobility.
> >
> > "Requirement: DMM solutions SHOULD support multicast services. If a
> specific DMM solution does not support multicast services, an
> explanation MUST be provided."
>
> This sounds good to me.
>
> The main thing I want to achieve is what was describes as motivation
> earlier in this thread. Multicast should at least be considered when
> looking into DMM solutions, and not just an afterthought once the
> solution is decided.
>
> Stig

[JCZ] I fully agree with this. That was the intention of the proposed text.

Regards,

Juan Carlos

>
> > To me that reads basically "do not break foundations for multicast
> unless you have a valid & documented reason for it".  If we look e.g.
> into RFC625 multicast wording that is there very briefly but gives a
> hint to a developer where to head to. That is the level I would expect
> DMM documents should aim to.
> >
> > - Jouni
> >
> >
> >> Let dmm deal with its current charter that does not include a word
> of
> >> multicast and if everything goes well we can come back and discuss
> dmm
> >> multicast.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Behcet

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<body bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Is there consensus for PS=
1 now?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">PS1 (revised): Non-optima=
l routes</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333399">Routing via a centrali=
zed anchor often results in a longer route. The problem is manifested, for =
example, when accessing a local server or servers of a Content
 Delivery Network (CDN), <b>or when receiving locally available IP multicas=
t or sending IP multicast packets</b>.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">H Anthony Chan<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> dmm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org=
]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>pierrick.seite@orange.com<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 21, 2012 3:37 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO'; S=E9rgio Figueiredo; dmm@ietf.o=
rg<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] Multicast PS to requirements<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi,<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Referring to CDN does not=
 make any assumptions on the delivery mode. So, if you really want to stres=
s multicast, I suggest the following:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333399">Routing via a centralized=
 anchor often results in a longer route. The problem is [especially] manife=
sted when accessing a local server or servers of a Content
 Delivery Network (CDN), including both unicast and multicast delivery mode=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">BR,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Pierrick<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;=
:</span></b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> dmm-bounces@ietf.org =
[mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>De la part de</b> LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> mercredi 21 novembre 2012 09:38<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> S=E9rgio Figueiredo; dmm@ietf.org<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [DMM] Multicast PS to requirements<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thanks Sergio, Seil,</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Just a final comment. For=
 PS1, not sure if the word &#8220;especially&#8221; in the sentence &#8220;=
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333399">The
 problem is especially manifested &#8230;</span><span style=3D"font-size:11=
.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">=
&#8221; should be removed.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Luis</span><o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"ES" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De:</spa=
n></b><span lang=3D"ES" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&=
quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a href=
=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>En nombre de </b>S=E9rgio Figueiredo<br>
<b>Enviado el:</b> mi=E9rcoles, 21 de noviembre de 2012 0:21<br>
<b>Para:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Asunto:</b> Re: [DMM] Multicast PS to requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Luis,<br>
<br>
A few more comments on this inline:<br>
<br>
Em 20-11-2012 19:46, LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO escreveu:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi Anthony,
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">some comments in line
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards,</span><o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Luis</span><o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"ES" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De:</spa=
n></b><span lang=3D"ES" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&=
quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a href=
=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>En nombre de </b>h chan<br>
<b>Enviado el:</b> martes, 20 de noviembre de 2012 18:51<br>
<b>Para:</b> S=E9rgio Figueiredo; <a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.=
org</a><br>
<b>Asunto:</b> [DMM] Multicast PS to requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Let us also use another t=
hread to check for consensus of the PS from multimob.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">PS1 (revised): Non-optima=
l routes</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333399">Routing via a centrali=
zed anchor often results in a longer route. The problem is especially manif=
ested when accessing a local server or servers of a Content
 Delivery Network (CDN), <b>or when receiving / sending IP multicast packet=
s</b>.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family=
:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">[Luis&gt;&gt;] T=
his is correct if the multicast content is locally available. However this =
could not be always the case for multicast listeners, for a number
 of reasons (for instance, conflict in the multicast address allocation bet=
ween the Home Network and the DMM domain).
</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">[SF] Sure, and the sa=
me applies to &quot;accessing a local server a CDN&quot; - it is implicit t=
hat the content is locally available. But it can be improved as &quot;when =
receiving locally available IP multicast or sending
 IP multicast&quot;.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333399">PS6: Duplicate multicast =
traffic</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333399">IP multicast distribution=
 over architectures using IP mobility solutions&nbsp; may lead to convergen=
ce of duplicated multicast subscriptions towards the tunnel&#8217;s
 downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).&nbsp; Concretely, when multicast s=
ubscription for individual mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels, d=
uplicate multicast subscription(s) is prone to be received through differen=
t upstream paths. This problem is potentially
 more severe in a distributed mobility environment [draft-sfigueiredo-multi=
mob-use-case-dmm-03].</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></i></=
b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">[Luis&gt;&gt;] This=
 seems not to be a problem of the IP mobility solutions handling multicast =
traffic with mobility tunnels in general, but a problem of considering
 several upstream paths ending on the same mobility access router as a cons=
equence of extending tunnels from previousMAR to newMAR to forward the mult=
icast traffic.</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">[SF] Exactly. Which i=
s more than likely to happen in a DMM solution, where all &quot;mobility en=
tities&quot; may act as &quot;mobility access routers&quot;, and, after mob=
ility, we want to take advantage of the tunnel for the subscription.
 In those cases, care must be taken in order to not greatly magnify converg=
ence problem observed e.g. in RFC6224.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
S=E9rgio<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">H Anthony Chan</span><o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext">
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a href=
=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>S=E9rgio Figueiredo<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 19, 2012 5:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Anthony,<br>
<br>
Thank you for trying to progress on this matter. I mostly agree with your a=
nalysis.<br>
<br>
As for the question you posed, first I would like to exactly understand wha=
t you mean with &quot;multicast distribution scenario&quot; in &quot;<span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&=
quot;;color:#1F497D">DMM solutions should enable multicast services which
 are compatible with multicast distribution scenario, etc.</span>&quot;. It=
 seems like there is no major difference between this and the &quot;<span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;;color:#1F497D">DMM solutions should enable solutions to support
 multicast services.</span>&quot; requirement? Aren't both expressing the n=
eed to enable multicast in a DMM solution?<br>
<br>
As you stated, &quot;neglecting&quot; the requirement 7.1 we proposed, lead=
s to the PSs you referred.&nbsp; So, while 7.2 and 7.3 express the need for=
 DMM solutions to allow deployment of multicast services, 7.1 concerns&nbsp=
; &quot;how&quot; IP multicast should be enabled in order to avoid
 the aforementioned PSs. The usage of the word &quot;flexible&quot;is expla=
ined by: <br>
<br>
&quot;<span style=3D"color:windowtext">This flexibility enables different I=
P multicast flows with respect to a mobile host to be managed (e.g., subscr=
ibed, received and/or transmitted) using
</span>multiple endpoints&quot;. <br>
<br>
In other words, compatibility with &quot;multicast distribution scenario&qu=
ot; doesn't necessarily avoid PS1 and PS6.<br>
<br>
Thank you and best regards,<br>
S=E9rgio<br>
<br>
On 11/19/2012 10:28 PM, h chan wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">There are 3 proposals for=
 multicast requirements. Before comparing these proposals, let us understan=
d what are the problems first. Two problem statements have
 been proposed:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">PS1 (revised): Non-optima=
l routes</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333399">Routing via a centrali=
zed anchor often results in a longer route. The problem is especially manif=
ested when accessing a local server or servers of a Content
 Delivery Network (CDN), <b>or when receiving / sending IP multicast packet=
s</b>.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333399">PS6: Duplicate multicast =
traffic</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333399">IP multicast distribution=
 over architectures using IP mobility solutions&nbsp; may lead to convergen=
ce of duplicated multicast subscriptions towards the tunnel&#8217;s
 downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).&nbsp; Concretely, when multicast s=
ubscription for individual mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels, d=
uplicate multicast subscription(s) is prone to be received through differen=
t upstream paths. This problem is potentially
 more severe in a distributed mobility environment [draft-sfigueiredo-multi=
mob-use-case-dmm-03].</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#0070C0">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Then, let us see whether =
all the 3 REQ proposals have the same intention. In the following, I rephra=
se them to highlight their similarities.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">REQ7.1: Flexible multicas=
t distribution</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">DMM solutions should be c=
ompatible with flexible multicast distribution scenario. Etc.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The Motivation is to allo=
w flexibility in (enable) multicast solutions to solve the problems PS1 and=
 PS6 as explained in use cases already presented and discussed
 in multimob wg.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">REQ7.2:
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">DMM solutions should enab=
le solutions to support multicast traffic.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">(Original wording was &qu=
ot;The DMM (unicast) solution MUST be specified in such a way that it can b=
e extended to also support multicast traffic.&quot; I rephrase it
 to highlight the similarity with the other proposals and also changed the =
must to should.)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">REQ7.3:</span><o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">DMM solutions should enab=
le solutions to support multicast services.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Original wording was &#82=
20;DMM solutions should support multicast services &#8230; etc. Given that =
it is the scope of multimob and not dmm wg to provide the multicast
 solution, I think &#8220;support&#8221; here means &#8220;enable&#8221; so=
lutions to be developed (by multimob).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Similarity and subtle dif=
ferences: Both REQ7.2 and REQ7.3 want to enable multicast services. Yet the=
 explanation in REQ7.1 seems to indicate not just to enable
 any one multicast solution but also needs the flexibility in multicast sol=
ution. Not all multicast solutions are the same. Some of them results in PS=
1 or PS6.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Are there any are essenti=
al differences between:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In REQ7.1, DMM solutions =
should be compatible with flexible multicast distribution scenario, etc.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Versus</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">DMM solutions should enab=
le multicast services which are compatible with multicast distribution scen=
ario, etc.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">H Anthony Chan</span><o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a href=
=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Seil Jeon<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 19, 2012 5:15 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com">pierrick.seite@oran=
ge.com</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Hi Pierrick,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I&#8217;ve many times thought about your =
question. I would say how effectively should we deploy/support multicast ov=
er distributed mobility rather than distributed mobile multicast.
 As a result, you can find this deployment use case and gap analysis at <a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-=
03">
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03</a> p=
resented in multimob several times.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">In unicast DMM, main innovation is to dis=
tribute the anchor function at many access routers from single core. Follow=
ing architectural concept of DMM, flexible multicast distribution
 is one of multicast requirement resulted from the draft described above. <=
/span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">REQ8: Flexible multicast distribution<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&quot;DMM solutions SHOULD be compatible with flexib=
le multicast distribution scenarios. This flexibility enables different IP =
multicast flows with respect to a mobile host to be managed (e.g., subscrib=
ed, received and/or transmitted) using
 multiple endpoints&quot;. <br>
<br>
Motivation: The motivation for this requirement is to enable flexibility in=
 multicast distribution. The multicast solution may therefore avoid having =
multicast-capable access routers being restricted to manage all IP multicas=
t traffic relative to a host via
 a single endpoint (e.g. regular or tunnel interface), which would lead to =
the problems described in PS1 and PS6.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">IP multicast distribu=
tion over architectures using IP mobility solutions&nbsp; may lead to conve=
rgence of duplicated multicast subscriptions towards the tunnel&#8217;s dow=
nstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).&nbsp; Concretely,
 when multicast subscription for individual mobile nodes is coupled with mo=
bility tunnels, duplicate multicast subscription(s) is prone to be received=
 through different upstream paths. This problem is potentially more severe =
in a distributed mobility environment
 [draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Seil</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
<a href=3D"mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com">pierrick.seite@orange.com</a> =
[<a href=3D"mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com">mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.=
com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 19, 2012 8:55 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> '<a href=3D"mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl">karagian@cs.utwente.n=
l</a>'; <a href=3D"mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt">
seiljeon@av.it.pt</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com=
">JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [DMM] Multicast requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi all,</span=
><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I tend to agree with Geor=
gious, however I still do not figure out what is the use-case for distribut=
ed mobile multicast (other than academic considerations)?
 Can someone give concrete example? </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I haven&#8217;t real all =
messages from this thread. So, maybe I missed important points.</span><o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">BR,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Pierrick</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span=
 lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a href=
=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> <a href=3D"mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl">karagian@cs.=
utwente.nl</a><br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> samedi 17 novembre 2012 13:01<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt">seiljeon@av.it.pt</a=
>; <a href=3D"mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com">
JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com</a><br>
<b>Cc&nbsp;:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Hi all,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I also agree that the DMM solution should someho=
w consider muticast deployment. However, I do not thnk that the DMM WG is t=
he right WG to provide the multicast based DMM solution!</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">One alternative solution will be to have a multi=
cast requirement that emphasizes the need of having extensibility hooks (po=
ssibilities) that can be used later on by the multimob WG
 to provide a </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">a multicast enabled DMM solution!</span><o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">So a requirement that specifies something like t=
he following could be used for this purpose:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&quot;The DMM (unicast) solution&nbsp;MUST be sp=
ecified in such a way that it can be extended to also support multicast tra=
ffic.&quot;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Best regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Georgios</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
 lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<div id=3D"x_divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Van:</=
span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;">
</span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma=
&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">[<a href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">dmm-bounces@iet=
f.org</a>] namens Seil Jeon [<a href=3D"mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt">seiljeon@=
av.it.pt</a>]<br>
<b>Verzonden:</b> vrijdag 16 november 2012 22:25<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Zuniga, Juan Carlos'<br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><=
span lang=3D"EN-US">dmm@ietf.org</span></a></span><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
<b>Onderwerp:</b> Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Hi Juan,<br>
<br>
I've been looked at changed flow of your proposed text but sorry now that m=
y<br>
comment is posted.<br>
At first time, I couldn't make sure however, on hearing Stig's description,=
<br>
it seems quite reasonable at the first step, not giving any restrictions bu=
t<br>
leaving some-specific for the DMM solution it does not support multicast.<b=
r>
<br>
On the other hand, it remains at a basic stage for the DMM solution to<br>
support multicast.<br>
So I think additional requirements need to be made for the DMM solution,<br=
>
accordingly. But of course, this should not also give any specific<br>
limitation and restriction but should be made towards the direction not<br>
limiting the benefits provided by distributed deployment.<br>
<br>
I hope to get more comments on this.<br>
<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Regards,<br>
<br>
Seil<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: </span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org=
"><span lang=3D"EN-US">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">[</span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font=
-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:dmm-bo=
unces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span lang=3D"EN-US">mailto:dmm-bounces@i=
etf.org</span></a></span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">]
 On Behalf Of<br>
Zuniga, Juan Carlos<br>
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 8:14 PM<br>
To: Stig Venaas; </span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.=
org"><span lang=3D"EN-US">dmm@ietf.org</span></a></span><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Stig Venaas [</span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:st=
ig@venaas.com" target=3D"_blank"><span lang=3D"EN-US">mailto:stig@venaas.co=
m</span></a></span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma=
&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">]<br>
&gt; Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 3:01 PM<br>
&gt; To: jouni korhonen<br>
&gt; Cc: </span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:sarikaya@ieee.org=
"><span lang=3D"EN-US">sarikaya@ieee.org</span></a></span><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">; Zun=
iga, Juan
 Carlos; Konstantinos Pentikousis; <br>
&gt; Peter McCann; </span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:dmm@iet=
f.org"><span lang=3D"EN-US">dmm@ietf.org</span></a></span><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On 11/15/2012 3:17 AM, jouni korhonen wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; On Nov 15, 2012, at 1:03 AM, Behcet Sarikaya wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; I think we are reading too much into multicast and unicast sh=
ould<br>
be<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; designed in an integrated manner.<br>
</span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma=
&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; The fact is that multicast is considered as an area of<br>
&gt; specialization,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; it requires knowledge of very different protocols than we are=
 <br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; accustomed to in mobility.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &quot;Requirement: DMM solutions SHOULD support multicast service=
s. If a<br>
&gt; specific DMM solution does not support multicast services, an <br>
&gt; explanation MUST be provided.&quot;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; This sounds good to me.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The main thing I want to achieve is what was describes as motivation <=
br>
&gt; earlier in this thread. Multicast should at least be considered when <=
br>
&gt; looking into DMM solutions, and not just an afterthought once the <br>
&gt; solution is decided.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Stig<br>
<br>
[JCZ] I fully agree with this. That was the intention of the proposed text.=
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Juan Carlos<br>
&nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; To me that reads basically &quot;do not break foundations for mul=
ticast<br>
&gt; unless you have a valid &amp; documented reason for it&quot;.&nbsp; If=
 we look e.g.<br>
&gt; into RFC625 multicast wording that is there very briefly but gives a <=
br>
&gt; hint to a developer where to head to. That is the level I would expect=
 <br>
&gt; DMM documents should aim to.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; - Jouni<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Let dmm deal with its current charter that does not include a=
 word<br>
&gt; of<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; multicast and if everything goes well we can come back and di=
scuss<br>
&gt; dmm<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; multicast.<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Behcet<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
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an/listinfo/dmm</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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Cc: "dmm@ietf.org" <dmm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast PS to requirements
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Hi,

Agreed.

Regards,
Sérgio

On 12/04/2012 06:28 PM, h chan wrote:
>
> Instead of "especially," we can change to "for example." Non-optimal 
> routes can take place in other cases too.
>
> H Anthony Chan
>
> *From:*dmm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf 
> Of *LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 21, 2012 2:38 AM
> *To:* Sérgio Figueiredo; dmm@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [DMM] Multicast PS to requirements
>
> Thanks Sergio, Seil,
>
> Just a final comment. For PS1, not sure if the word "especially" in 
> the sentence "The problem is especially manifested ..." should be removed.
>
> Regards,
>
> Luis
>
> *De:*dmm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] *En nombre de 
> *Sérgio Figueiredo
> *Enviado el:* miércoles, 21 de noviembre de 2012 0:21
> *Para:* dmm@ietf.org
> *Asunto:* Re: [DMM] Multicast PS to requirements
>
> Hi Luis,
>
> A few more comments on this inline:
>
> Em 20-11-2012 19:46, LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO escreveu:
>
>     Hi Anthony,
>
>     some comments in line
>
>     Best regards,
>
>     Luis
>
>     *De:*dmm-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org>
>     [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] *En nombre de *h chan
>     *Enviado el:* martes, 20 de noviembre de 2012 18:51
>     *Para:* Sérgio Figueiredo; dmm@ietf.org <mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
>     *Asunto:* [DMM] Multicast PS to requirements
>
>     Let us also use another thread to check for consensus of the PS
>     from multimob.
>
>     PS1 (revised): Non-optimal routes
>
>     Routing via a centralized anchor often results in a longer route.
>     The problem is especially manifested when accessing a local server
>     or servers of a Content Delivery Network (CDN), *or when receiving
>     / sending IP multicast packets*.
>
>     */[Luis>>] This is correct if the multicast content is locally
>     available. However this could not be always the case for multicast
>     listeners, for a number of reasons (for instance, conflict in the
>     multicast address allocation between the Home Network and the DMM
>     domain). /*
>
> [SF] Sure, and the same applies to "accessing a local server a CDN" - 
> it is implicit that the content is locally available. But it can be 
> improved as "when receiving locally available IP multicast or sending 
> IP multicast".
>
> PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic
>
> IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility 
> solutions  may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast 
> subscriptions towards the tunnel's downstream entity (e.g. MAG in 
> PMIPv6).  Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual 
> mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast 
> subscription(s) is prone to be received through different upstream 
> paths. This problem is potentially more severe in a distributed 
> mobility environment [draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].
>
> *//*
>
> */[Luis>>] This seems not to be a problem of the IP mobility solutions 
> handling multicast traffic with mobility tunnels in general, but a 
> problem of considering several upstream paths ending on the same 
> mobility access router as a consequence of extending tunnels from 
> previousMAR to newMAR to forward the multicast traffic./*
>
> [SF] Exactly. Which is more than likely to happen in a DMM solution, 
> where all "mobility entities" may act as "mobility access routers", 
> and, after mobility, we want to take advantage of the tunnel for the 
> subscription. In those cases, care must be taken in order to not 
> greatly magnify convergence problem observed e.g. in RFC6224.
>
> Regards,
> Sérgio
>
> H Anthony Chan
>
> *From:*dmm-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> 
> [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Sérgio Figueiredo
> *Sent:* Monday, November 19, 2012 5:24 PM
> *To:* dmm@ietf.org <mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements
>
> Hi Anthony,
>
> Thank you for trying to progress on this matter. I mostly agree with 
> your analysis.
>
> As for the question you posed, first I would like to exactly 
> understand what you mean with "multicast distribution scenario" in 
> "DMM solutions should enable multicast services which are compatible 
> with multicast distribution scenario, etc.". It seems like there is no 
> major difference between this and the "DMM solutions should enable 
> solutions to support multicast services." requirement? Aren't both 
> expressing the need to enable multicast in a DMM solution?
>
> As you stated, "neglecting" the requirement 7.1 we proposed, leads to 
> the PSs you referred.  So, while 7.2 and 7.3 express the need for DMM 
> solutions to allow deployment of multicast services, 7.1 concerns  
> "how" IP multicast should be enabled in order to avoid the 
> aforementioned PSs. The usage of the word "flexible"is explained by:
>
> "This flexibility enables different IP multicast flows with respect to 
> a mobile host to be managed (e.g., subscribed, received and/or 
> transmitted) using multiple endpoints".
>
> In other words, compatibility with "multicast distribution scenario" 
> doesn't necessarily avoid PS1 and PS6.
>
> Thank you and best regards,
> Sérgio
>
> On 11/19/2012 10:28 PM, h chan wrote:
>
>     There are 3 proposals for multicast requirements. Before comparing
>     these proposals, let us understand what are the problems first.
>     Two problem statements have been proposed:
>
>     PS1 (revised): Non-optimal routes
>
>     Routing via a centralized anchor often results in a longer route.
>     The problem is especially manifested when accessing a local server
>     or servers of a Content Delivery Network (CDN), *or when receiving
>     / sending IP multicast packets*.
>
>     PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic
>
>     IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility
>     solutions  may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast
>     subscriptions towards the tunnel's downstream entity (e.g. MAG in
>     PMIPv6). Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual
>     mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast
>     subscription(s) is prone to be received through different upstream
>     paths. This problem is potentially more severe in a distributed
>     mobility environment [draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].
>
>     Then, let us see whether all the 3 REQ proposals have the same
>     intention. In the following, I rephrase them to highlight their
>     similarities.
>
>     REQ7.1: Flexible multicast distribution
>
>     DMM solutions should be compatible with flexible multicast
>     distribution scenario. Etc.
>
>     The Motivation is to allow flexibility in (enable) multicast
>     solutions to solve the problems PS1 and PS6 as explained in use
>     cases already presented and discussed in multimob wg.
>
>     REQ7.2:
>
>     DMM solutions should enable solutions to support multicast traffic.
>
>     (Original wording was "The DMM (unicast) solution MUST be
>     specified in such a way that it can be extended to also support
>     multicast traffic." I rephrase it to highlight the similarity with
>     the other proposals and also changed the must to should.)
>
>     REQ7.3:
>
>     DMM solutions should enable solutions to support multicast services.
>
>     Original wording was "DMM solutions should support multicast
>     services ... etc. Given that it is the scope of multimob and not
>     dmm wg to provide the multicast solution, I think "support" here
>     means "enable" solutions to be developed (by multimob).
>
>     Similarity and subtle differences: Both REQ7.2 and REQ7.3 want to
>     enable multicast services. Yet the explanation in REQ7.1 seems to
>     indicate not just to enable any one multicast solution but also
>     needs the flexibility in multicast solution. Not all multicast
>     solutions are the same. Some of them results in PS1 or PS6.
>
>     Are there any are essential differences between:
>
>     In REQ7.1, DMM solutions should be compatible with flexible
>     multicast distribution scenario, etc.
>
>     Versus
>
>     DMM solutions should enable multicast services which are
>     compatible with multicast distribution scenario, etc.
>
>     H Anthony Chan
>
>     *From:*dmm-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org>
>     [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Seil Jeon
>     *Sent:* Monday, November 19, 2012 5:15 AM
>     *To:* pierrick.seite@orange.com <mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com>
>     *Cc:* dmm@ietf.org <mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
>     *Subject:* Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements
>
>     Hi Pierrick,
>
>     I've many times thought about your question. I would say how
>     effectively should we deploy/support multicast over distributed
>     mobility rather than distributed mobile multicast. As a result,
>     you can find this deployment use case and gap analysis at
>     http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03
>     presented in multimob several times.
>
>     In unicast DMM, main innovation is to distribute the anchor
>     function at many access routers from single core. Following
>     architectural concept of DMM, flexible multicast distribution is
>     one of multicast requirement resulted from the draft described above.
>
>     REQ8: Flexible multicast distribution
>
>     "DMM solutions SHOULD be compatible with flexible multicast
>     distribution scenarios. This flexibility enables different IP
>     multicast flows with respect to a mobile host to be managed (e.g.,
>     subscribed, received and/or transmitted) using multiple endpoints".
>
>     Motivation: The motivation for this requirement is to enable
>     flexibility in multicast distribution. The multicast solution may
>     therefore avoid having multicast-capable access routers being
>     restricted to manage all IP multicast traffic relative to a host
>     via a single endpoint (e.g. regular or tunnel interface), which
>     would lead to the problems described in PS1 and PS6.
>
>     PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic
>
>     IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility
>     solutions  may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast
>     subscriptions towards the tunnel's downstream entity (e.g. MAG in
>     PMIPv6).  Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual
>     mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast
>     subscription(s) is prone to be received through different upstream
>     paths. This problem is potentially more severe in a distributed
>     mobility environment [draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].
>
>     Regards,
>
>     Seil
>
>     *From:*pierrick.seite@orange.com
>     <mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com> [mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com]
>     *Sent:* Monday, November 19, 2012 8:55 AM
>     *To:* 'karagian@cs.utwente.nl <mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl>';
>     seiljeon@av.it.pt <mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt>;
>     JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com
>     <mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com>
>     *Cc:* dmm@ietf.org <mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
>     *Subject:* RE: [DMM] Multicast requirements
>
>     Hi all,
>
>     I tend to agree with Georgious, however I still do not figure out
>     what is the use-case for distributed mobile multicast (other than
>     academic considerations)? Can someone give concrete example?
>
>     I haven't real all messages from this thread. So, maybe I missed
>     important points.
>
>     BR,
>
>     Pierrick
>
>     *De :*dmm-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org>
>     [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] *De la part de*
>     karagian@cs.utwente.nl <mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl>
>     *Envoyé :* samedi 17 novembre 2012 13:01
>     *À :* seiljeon@av.it.pt <mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt>;
>     JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com
>     <mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com>
>     *Cc :* dmm@ietf.org <mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
>     *Objet :* Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements
>
>     Hi all,
>
>     I also agree that the DMM solution should somehow consider
>     muticast deployment. However, I do not thnk that the DMM WG is the
>     right WG to provide the multicast based DMM solution!
>
>     One alternative solution will be to have a multicast requirement
>     that emphasizes the need of having extensibility hooks
>     (possibilities) that can be used later on by the multimob WG to
>     provide a
>
>     a multicast enabled DMM solution!
>
>     So a requirement that specifies something like the following could
>     be used for this purpose:
>
>     "The DMM (unicast) solution MUST be specified in such a way that
>     it can be extended to also support multicast traffic."
>
>     Best regards,
>
>     Georgios
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     *Van:*dmm-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org>
>     [dmm-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org>] namens Seil
>     Jeon [seiljeon@av.it.pt <mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt>]
>     *Verzonden:* vrijdag 16 november 2012 22:25
>     *To:* 'Zuniga, Juan Carlos'
>     *Cc:* dmm@ietf.org <mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
>     *Onderwerp:* Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements
>
>     Hi Juan,
>
>     I've been looked at changed flow of your proposed text but sorry
>     now that my
>     comment is posted.
>     At first time, I couldn't make sure however, on hearing Stig's
>     description,
>     it seems quite reasonable at the first step, not giving any
>     restrictions but
>     leaving some-specific for the DMM solution it does not support
>     multicast.
>
>     On the other hand, it remains at a basic stage for the DMM solution to
>     support multicast.
>     So I think additional requirements need to be made for the DMM
>     solution,
>     accordingly. But of course, this should not also give any specific
>     limitation and restriction but should be made towards the
>     direction not
>     limiting the benefits provided by distributed deployment.
>
>     I hope to get more comments on this.
>
>     Regards,
>
>     Seil
>
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: dmm-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org>
>     [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>     Zuniga, Juan Carlos
>     Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 8:14 PM
>     To: Stig Venaas; dmm@ietf.org <mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
>     Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements
>
>
>     > -----Original Message-----
>     > From: Stig Venaas [mailto:stig@venaas.com]
>     > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 3:01 PM
>     > To: jouni korhonen
>     > Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org <mailto:sarikaya@ieee.org>; Zuniga, Juan
>     Carlos; Konstantinos Pentikousis;
>     > Peter McCann; dmm@ietf.org <mailto:dmm@ietf.org>
>     > Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements
>     >
>     > On 11/15/2012 3:17 AM, jouni korhonen wrote:
>     > >
>     > > On Nov 15, 2012, at 1:03 AM, Behcet Sarikaya wrote:
>     > >
>     > >>
>     > >> I think we are reading too much into multicast and unicast should
>     be
>     > >> designed in an integrated manner.
>     > >>
>     > >> The fact is that multicast is considered as an area of
>     > specialization,
>     > >> it requires knowledge of very different protocols than we are
>     > >> accustomed to in mobility.
>     > >
>     > > "Requirement: DMM solutions SHOULD support multicast services.
>     If a
>     > specific DMM solution does not support multicast services, an
>     > explanation MUST be provided."
>     >
>     > This sounds good to me.
>     >
>     > The main thing I want to achieve is what was describes as
>     motivation
>     > earlier in this thread. Multicast should at least be considered
>     when
>     > looking into DMM solutions, and not just an afterthought once the
>     > solution is decided.
>     >
>     > Stig
>
>     [JCZ] I fully agree with this. That was the intention of the
>     proposed text.
>
>     Regards,
>
>     Juan Carlos
>
>     >
>     > > To me that reads basically "do not break foundations for multicast
>     > unless you have a valid & documented reason for it".  If we look
>     e.g.
>     > into RFC625 multicast wording that is there very briefly but
>     gives a
>     > hint to a developer where to head to. That is the level I would
>     expect
>     > DMM documents should aim to.
>     > >
>     > > - Jouni
>     > >
>     > >
>     > >> Let dmm deal with its current charter that does not include a
>     word
>     > of
>     > >> multicast and if everything goes well we can come back and
>     discuss
>     > dmm
>     > >> multicast.
>     > >>
>     > >> Regards,
>     > >>
>     > >> Behcet
>
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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi,<br>
      <br>
      Agreed. <br>
      <br>
      Regards,<br>
      S&eacute;rgio<br>
      <br>
      On 12/04/2012 06:28 PM, h chan wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
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      type="cite">
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Instead
            of &#8220;especially,&#8221; we can change to &#8220;for example.&#8221; Non-optimal
            routes can take place in other cases too.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">H
              Anthony Chan<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 21, 2012 2:38 AM<br>
                <b>To:</b> S&eacute;rgio Figueiredo; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] Multicast PS to requirements<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thanks
              Sergio, Seil,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Just
              a final comment. For PS1, not sure if the word
              &#8220;especially&#8221; in the sentence &#8220;</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333399">The

              problem is especially manifested &#8230;</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&#8221;
              should be removed.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Luis</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                    lang="ES">De:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                  lang="ES"> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>
                  [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                  <b>En nombre de </b>S&eacute;rgio Figueiredo<br>
                  <b>Enviado el:</b> mi&eacute;rcoles, 21 de noviembre de 2012
                  0:21<br>
                  <b>Para:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
                  <b>Asunto:</b> Re: [DMM] Multicast PS to requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Hi Luis,<br>
              <br>
              A few more comments on this inline:<br>
              <br>
              Em 20-11-2012 19:46, LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO
              escreveu:<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi
                  Anthony,
                </span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">some
                  comments in line
                </span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best
                  regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Luis</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <div>
                <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
                  1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                        lang="ES">De:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                      lang="ES">
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>
                      [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                      <b>En nombre de </b>h chan<br>
                      <b>Enviado el:</b> martes, 20 de noviembre de 2012
                      18:51<br>
                      <b>Para:</b> S&eacute;rgio Figueiredo; <a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
                      <b>Asunto:</b> [DMM] Multicast PS to requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
              </div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Let
                  us also use another thread to check for consensus of
                  the PS from multimob.
                </span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">PS1
                  (revised): Non-optimal routes</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoPlainText"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333399">Routing
                  via a centralized anchor often results in a longer
                  route. The problem is especially manifested when
                  accessing a local server or servers of a Content
                  Delivery Network (CDN), <b>or when receiving /
                    sending IP multicast packets</b>.
                </span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoPlainText"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">[Luis&gt;&gt;]
                      This is correct if the multicast content is
                      locally available. However this could not be
                      always the case for multicast listeners, for a
                      number of reasons (for instance, conflict in the
                      multicast address allocation between the Home
                      Network and the DMM domain).
                    </span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">[SF] Sure,
            and the same applies to "accessing a local server a CDN" -
            it is implicit that the content is locally available. But it
            can be improved as "when receiving locally available IP
            multicast or sending IP multicast".<br>
            <br>
            <o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333399">PS6:
                Duplicate multicast traffic</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333399">IP
                multicast distribution over architectures using IP
                mobility solutions&nbsp; may lead to convergence of
                duplicated multicast subscriptions towards the tunnel&#8217;s
                downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).&nbsp; Concretely,
                when multicast subscription for individual mobile nodes
                is coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast
                subscription(s) is prone to be received through
                different upstream paths. This problem is potentially
                more severe in a distributed mobility environment
                [draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">[Luis&gt;&gt;]
                    This seems not to be a problem of the IP mobility
                    solutions handling multicast traffic with mobility
                    tunnels in general, but a problem of considering
                    several upstream paths ending on the same mobility
                    access router as a consequence of extending tunnels
                    from previousMAR to newMAR to forward the multicast
                    traffic.</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">[SF]
            Exactly. Which is more than likely to happen in a DMM
            solution, where all "mobility entities" may act as "mobility
            access routers", and, after mobility, we want to take
            advantage of the tunnel for the subscription. In those
            cases, care must be taken in order to not greatly magnify
            convergence problem observed e.g. in RFC6224.<br>
            <br>
            Regards,<br>
            S&eacute;rgio<br>
            <br>
            <o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">H
                  Anthony Chan</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <div>
              <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
                1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
                <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                    <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>
                    [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                    <b>On Behalf Of </b>S&eacute;rgio Figueiredo<br>
                    <b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 19, 2012 5:24 PM<br>
                    <b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
                    <b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
            </div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">Hi Anthony,<br>
                <br>
                Thank you for trying to progress on this matter. I
                mostly agree with your analysis.<br>
                <br>
                As for the question you posed, first I would like to
                exactly understand what you mean with "multicast
                distribution scenario" in "<span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">DMM
                  solutions should enable multicast services which are
                  compatible with multicast distribution scenario, etc.</span>".
                It seems like there is no major difference between this
                and the "<span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">DMM
                  solutions should enable solutions to support multicast
                  services.</span>" requirement? Aren't both expressing
                the need to enable multicast in a DMM solution?<br>
                <br>
                As you stated, "neglecting" the requirement 7.1 we
                proposed, leads to the PSs you referred.&nbsp; So, while 7.2
                and 7.3 express the need for DMM solutions to allow
                deployment of multicast services, 7.1 concerns&nbsp; "how" IP
                multicast should be enabled in order to avoid the
                aforementioned PSs. The usage of the word "flexible"is
                explained by: <br>
                <br>
                "<span style="color:windowtext">This flexibility enables
                  different IP multicast flows with respect to a mobile
                  host to be managed (e.g., subscribed, received and/or
                  transmitted) using
                </span>multiple endpoints". <br>
                <br>
                In other words, compatibility with "multicast
                distribution scenario" doesn't necessarily avoid PS1 and
                PS6.<br>
                <br>
                Thank you and best regards,<br>
                S&eacute;rgio<br>
                <br>
                On 11/19/2012 10:28 PM, h chan wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">There
                  are 3 proposals for multicast requirements. Before
                  comparing these proposals, let us understand what are
                  the problems first. Two problem statements have been
                  proposed:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">PS1
                  (revised): Non-optimal routes</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoPlainText"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333399">Routing
                  via a centralized anchor often results in a longer
                  route. The problem is especially manifested when
                  accessing a local server or servers of a Content
                  Delivery Network (CDN), <b>or when receiving /
                    sending IP multicast packets</b>.
                </span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333399">PS6:
                  Duplicate multicast traffic</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333399">IP
                  multicast distribution over architectures using IP
                  mobility solutions&nbsp; may lead to convergence of
                  duplicated multicast subscriptions towards the
                  tunnel&#8217;s downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).&nbsp;
                  Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual
                  mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels,
                  duplicate multicast subscription(s) is prone to be
                  received through different upstream paths. This
                  problem is potentially more severe in a distributed
                  mobility environment
                  [draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#0070C0">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Then,
                  let us see whether all the 3 REQ proposals have the
                  same intention. In the following, I rephrase them to
                  highlight their similarities.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">REQ7.1:
                  Flexible multicast distribution</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">DMM
                  solutions should be compatible with flexible multicast
                  distribution scenario. Etc.
                </span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The
                  Motivation is to allow flexibility in (enable)
                  multicast solutions to solve the problems PS1 and PS6
                  as explained in use cases already presented and
                  discussed in multimob wg.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">REQ7.2:
                </span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">DMM
                  solutions should enable solutions to support multicast
                  traffic.
                </span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">(Original
                  wording was "The DMM (unicast) solution MUST be
                  specified in such a way that it can be extended to
                  also support multicast traffic." I rephrase it to
                  highlight the similarity with the other proposals and
                  also changed the must to should.)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">REQ7.3:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">DMM
                  solutions should enable solutions to support multicast
                  services.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Original
                  wording was &#8220;DMM solutions should support multicast
                  services &#8230; etc. Given that it is the scope of multimob
                  and not dmm wg to provide the multicast solution, I
                  think &#8220;support&#8221; here means &#8220;enable&#8221; solutions to be
                  developed (by multimob).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Similarity
                  and subtle differences: Both REQ7.2 and REQ7.3 want to
                  enable multicast services. Yet the explanation in
                  REQ7.1 seems to indicate not just to enable any one
                  multicast solution but also needs the flexibility in
                  multicast solution. Not all multicast solutions are
                  the same. Some of them results in PS1 or PS6.
                </span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Are
                    there any are essential differences between:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In
                    REQ7.1, DMM solutions should be compatible with
                    flexible multicast distribution scenario, etc.
                  </span><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Versus</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">DMM
                    solutions should enable multicast services which are
                    compatible with multicast distribution scenario,
                    etc.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">H
                    Anthony Chan</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <div>
                <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
                  1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>
                      [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                      <b>On Behalf Of </b>Seil Jeon<br>
                      <b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 19, 2012 5:15 AM<br>
                      <b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com">pierrick.seite@orange.com</a><br>
                      <b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
                      <b>Subject:</b> Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
              </div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Hi
                  Pierrick,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I&#8217;ve
                  many times thought about your question. I would say
                  how effectively should we deploy/support multicast
                  over distributed mobility rather than distributed
                  mobile multicast. As a result, you can find this
                  deployment use case and gap analysis at <a
                    moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03</a>
                  presented in multimob several times.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">In
                  unicast DMM, main innovation is to distribute the
                  anchor function at many access routers from single
                  core. Following architectural concept of DMM, flexible
                  multicast distribution is one of multicast requirement
                  resulted from the draft described above. </span>
                <o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoPlainText">REQ8: Flexible multicast
                distribution<o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal">"DMM solutions SHOULD be compatible
                with flexible multicast distribution scenarios. This
                flexibility enables different IP multicast flows with
                respect to a mobile host to be managed (e.g.,
                subscribed, received and/or transmitted) using multiple
                endpoints". <br>
                <br>
                Motivation: The motivation for this requirement is to
                enable flexibility in multicast distribution. The
                multicast solution may therefore avoid having
                multicast-capable access routers being restricted to
                manage all IP multicast traffic relative to a host via a
                single endpoint (e.g. regular or tunnel interface),
                which would lead to the problems described in PS1 and
                PS6.<o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal">PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic<o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">IP
                multicast distribution over architectures using IP
                mobility solutions&nbsp; may lead to convergence of
                duplicated multicast subscriptions towards the tunnel&#8217;s
                downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).&nbsp; Concretely,
                when multicast subscription for individual mobile nodes
                is coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast
                subscription(s) is prone to be received through
                different upstream paths. This problem is potentially
                more severe in a distributed mobility environment
                [draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].<br>
                <br>
                <o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Seil</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <div>
                <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
                  1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com">pierrick.seite@orange.com</a>
                      [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com">mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com</a>]
                      <br>
                      <b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 19, 2012 8:55 AM<br>
                      <b>To:</b> '<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl">karagian@cs.utwente.nl</a>';
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt">
                        seiljeon@av.it.pt</a>; <a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com">JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com</a><br>
                      <b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
                      <b>Subject:</b> RE: [DMM] Multicast requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
              </div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="FR">Hi all,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="FR">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I
                  tend to agree with Georgious, however I still do not
                  figure out what is the use-case for distributed mobile
                  multicast (other than academic considerations)? Can
                  someone give concrete example? </span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I
                  haven&#8217;t real all messages from this thread. So, maybe
                  I missed important points.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">BR,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Pierrick</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
                1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
                <div>
                  <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
                    1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                          lang="FR">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                        lang="FR">
                        <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                          href="mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>
                        [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                          href="mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                        <b>De la part de</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                          href="mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl">karagian@cs.utwente.nl</a><br>
                        <b>Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;:</b> samedi 17 novembre 2012 13:01<br>
                        <b>&Agrave;&nbsp;:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                          href="mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt">seiljeon@av.it.pt</a>;
                        <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                          href="mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com">
                          JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com</a><br>
                        <b>Cc&nbsp;:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                          href="mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a><br>
                        <b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
                </div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                <div>
                  <p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                      lang="FR">Hi all,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                  <p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                      lang="FR">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                  <p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                      lang="FR">I also agree that the DMM solution
                      should somehow consider muticast deployment.
                      However, I do not thnk that the DMM WG is the
                      right WG to provide the multicast based DMM
                      solution!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                  <p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                      lang="FR">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                  <p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                      lang="FR">One alternative solution will be to have
                      a multicast requirement that emphasizes the need
                      of having extensibility hooks (possibilities) that
                      can be used later on by the multimob WG to provide
                      a </span><o:p></o:p></p>
                  <p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                      lang="FR">a multicast enabled DMM solution!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                  <p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                      lang="FR">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                  <p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                      lang="FR">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                  <p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                      lang="FR">So a requirement that specifies
                      something like the following could be used for
                      this purpose:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                  <p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                      lang="FR">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                  <p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                      lang="FR">"The DMM (unicast) solution&nbsp;MUST be
                      specified in such a way that it can be extended to
                      also support multicast traffic."</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                  <p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                      lang="FR">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                  <p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                      lang="FR">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                  <p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                      lang="FR">Best regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                  <p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                      lang="FR">Georgios</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                  <p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                      lang="FR">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                  <p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                      lang="FR">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                  <p><span
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                      <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Van:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
                        </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                          lang="FR"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span
                              lang="EN-US">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>
                        </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">[<a
                            moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                          namens Seil Jeon [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt">seiljeon@av.it.pt</a>]<br>
                          <b>Verzonden:</b> vrijdag 16 november 2012
                          22:25<br>
                          <b>To:</b> 'Zuniga, Juan Carlos'<br>
                          <b>Cc:</b> </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                          lang="FR"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span
                              lang="EN-US">dmm@ietf.org</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
                          <b>Onderwerp:</b> Re: [DMM] Multicast
                          requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                        lang="FR">Hi Juan,<br>
                        <br>
                        I've been looked at changed flow of your
                        proposed text but sorry now that my<br>
                        comment is posted.<br>
                        At first time, I couldn't make sure however, on
                        hearing Stig's description,<br>
                        it seems quite reasonable at the first step, not
                        giving any restrictions but<br>
                        leaving some-specific for the DMM solution it
                        does not support multicast.<br>
                        <br>
                        On the other hand, it remains at a basic stage
                        for the DMM solution to<br>
                        support multicast.<br>
                        So I think additional requirements need to be
                        made for the DMM solution,<br>
                        accordingly. But of course, this should not also
                        give any specific<br>
                        limitation and restriction but should be made
                        towards the direction not<br>
                        limiting the benefits provided by distributed
                        deployment.<br>
                        <br>
                        I hope to get more comments on this.<br>
                        <br>
                      </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Regards,<br>
                        <br>
                        Seil<br>
                        <br>
                        <br>
                        -----Original Message-----<br>
                        From: </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                        lang="FR"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                          href="mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span
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                      </span><span
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style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">]
                        On Behalf Of<br>
                        Zuniga, Juan Carlos<br>
                        Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 8:14 PM<br>
                        To: Stig Venaas; </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                        lang="FR"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                          href="mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span lang="EN-US">dmm@ietf.org</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
                        Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements<br>
                        <br>
                        <br>
                        &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
                        &gt; From: Stig Venaas [</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                        lang="FR"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                          href="mailto:stig@venaas.com" target="_blank"><span
                            lang="EN-US">mailto:stig@venaas.com</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">]<br>
                        &gt; Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 3:01 PM<br>
                        &gt; To: jouni korhonen<br>
                        &gt; Cc: </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                        lang="FR"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                          href="mailto:sarikaya@ieee.org"><span
                            lang="EN-US">sarikaya@ieee.org</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">;
                        Zuniga, Juan Carlos; Konstantinos Pentikousis; <br>
                        &gt; Peter McCann; </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                        lang="FR"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                          href="mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span lang="EN-US">dmm@ietf.org</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
                        &gt; Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements<br>
                        &gt; <br>
                        &gt; On 11/15/2012 3:17 AM, jouni korhonen
                        wrote:<br>
                        &gt; &gt;<br>
                        &gt; &gt; On Nov 15, 2012, at 1:03 AM, Behcet
                        Sarikaya wrote:<br>
                        &gt; &gt;<br>
                        &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
                        &gt; &gt;&gt; I think we are reading too much
                        into multicast and unicast should<br>
                        be<br>
                        &gt; &gt;&gt; designed in an integrated manner.<br>
                      </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                        lang="FR">&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
                        &gt; &gt;&gt; The fact is that multicast is
                        considered as an area of<br>
                        &gt; specialization,<br>
                        &gt; &gt;&gt; it requires knowledge of very
                        different protocols than we are <br>
                        &gt; &gt;&gt; accustomed to in mobility.<br>
                        &gt; &gt;<br>
                        &gt; &gt; "Requirement: DMM solutions SHOULD
                        support multicast services. If a<br>
                        &gt; specific DMM solution does not support
                        multicast services, an <br>
                        &gt; explanation MUST be provided."<br>
                        &gt; <br>
                        &gt; This sounds good to me.<br>
                        &gt; <br>
                        &gt; The main thing I want to achieve is what
                        was describes as motivation <br>
                        &gt; earlier in this thread. Multicast should at
                        least be considered when <br>
                        &gt; looking into DMM solutions, and not just an
                        afterthought once the <br>
                        &gt; solution is decided.<br>
                        &gt; <br>
                        &gt; Stig<br>
                        <br>
                        [JCZ] I fully agree with this. That was the
                        intention of the proposed text.<br>
                        <br>
                        Regards,<br>
                        <br>
                        Juan Carlos<br>
                        &nbsp;<br>
                        &gt; <br>
                        &gt; &gt; To me that reads basically "do not
                        break foundations for multicast<br>
                        &gt; unless you have a valid &amp; documented
                        reason for it".&nbsp; If we look e.g.<br>
                        &gt; into RFC625 multicast wording that is there
                        very briefly but gives a <br>
                        &gt; hint to a developer where to head to. That
                        is the level I would expect <br>
                        &gt; DMM documents should aim to.<br>
                        &gt; &gt;<br>
                        &gt; &gt; - Jouni<br>
                        &gt; &gt;<br>
                        &gt; &gt;<br>
                        &gt; &gt;&gt; Let dmm deal with its current
                        charter that does not include a word<br>
                        &gt; of<br>
                        &gt; &gt;&gt; multicast and if everything goes
                        well we can come back and discuss<br>
                        &gt; dmm<br>
                        &gt; &gt;&gt; multicast.<br>
                      </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&gt;
                        &gt;&gt;<br>
                        &gt; &gt;&gt; Regards,<br>
                        &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
                        &gt; &gt;&gt; Behcet<br>
                        <br>
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From seiljeon@av.it.pt  Wed Dec  5 01:52:43 2012
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From: "Seil Jeon" <seiljeon@av.it.pt>
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Hi Anthony,

=20

For me, it=E2=80=99s ok and nice.

Thanks to your hard work.

=20

Regards,

=20

Seil

=20

From: h chan [mailto:h.anthony.chan@huawei.com]=20
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2012 6:45 PM
To: Seil Jeon; luo.wen@zte.com.cn
Cc: dmm@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [DMM] =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: Re: Multicast PS to requirements

=20

Any changes/clarifications to PS6?

=20

PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic=20
IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility solutions =
may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast subscriptions towards =
the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).  =
Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual mobile nodes is =
coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast subscription(s) is =
prone to be received through different upstream paths. This problem is =
potentially more severe in a distributed mobility environment =
[draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].

=20

H Anthony Chan

=20

From: dmm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
Seil Jeon
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 4:27 PM
To: luo.wen@zte.com.cn
Cc: dmm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: Re: Multicast PS to requirements

=20

Hi Luo,

=20

Additionally following the comment by Sergio,

=20

=20

From: dmm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
Sergio Figueiredo
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 9:35 AM
To: luo.wen@zte.com.cn
Cc: dmm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: Re: Multicast PS to requirements

=20

Hi Luo,

Thanks for your comment. My answer is placed inline:

On 11/22/2012 08:02 AM, luo.wen@zte.com.cn wrote:


Hi S=C3=A9rgio=20

> PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic=20
> IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility =
solutions  may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast subscriptions =
towards the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).  =
>Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual mobile nodes is =
coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast subscription(s) is =
prone to be received through different upstream paths. This problem is =
potentially more severe in a distributed mobility environment =
[draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].=20
 =20
>[Luis>>] This seems not to be a problem of the IP mobility solutions =
handling multicast traffic with mobility tunnels in general, but a =
problem of considering several upstream paths ending on the same =
mobility access router as a consequence of extending tunnels from =
previousMAR to newMAR to forward the multicast traffic.=20

> [SF] Exactly. Which is more than likely to happen in a DMM solution, =
where all "mobility entities" may act as "mobility access routers", and, =
after mobility, we want to take advantage of the tunnel for the =
subscription. In those cases, care must be taken in order to not greatly =
magnify convergence problem observed e.g. in RFC6224.=20

[Luowen] According to the above discussion, I believe the PS6  is based =
on the usage scenarios discussed in =
draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03. But, it seems to me the =
usage scenarios in this draft is based on a assumed dmm unicast solution =
and architecture. IMHO, the PS should be based on current existing =
protocol (e.g. RFC) or current deployment, not a assumed solution.

SF: PS6 is observable is both existing protocols (e.g. RFC6224) and in =
the use cases we analyzed - in a PMIPv6-based DMM solution. So I assume =
the PS fits in the REQs document. As I said before, if ignored, the =
tunnel convergence problem might be a much serious problem than in =
RFC6224.

>> In the use case draft, there are any solutions not assumed. We =
presented use cases, having various deployments of existing multicast =
standard entities, and corresponding analysis based on distributed =
deployment specified in DMM REQ1.

No more, no less.

=20

Regards,

=20

Seil

=20

=20


S=C3=A9rgio Figueiredo  <mailto:sfigueiredo@av.it.pt> =
<sfigueiredo@av.it.pt>=20
=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:  dmm-bounces@ietf.org=20

2012/11/21 07:21=20


=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA

dmm@ietf.org=20


=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81

=09

=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98

Re: [DMM] Multicast PS to requirements

=20

	=09




Hi Luis,

A few more comments on this inline:

Em 20-11-2012 19:46, LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO escreveu:=20
Hi Anthony,=20
 =20
some comments in line=20
 =20
Best regards,=20
 =20
Luis=20
 =20
De:  <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> dmm-bounces@ietf.org [ =
<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] En nombre de =
h chan
Enviado el: martes, 20 de noviembre de 2012 18:51
Para: S=C3=A9rgio Figueiredo;  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org
Asunto: [DMM] Multicast PS to requirements=20
 =20
Let us also use another thread to check for consensus of the PS from =
multimob.=20
 =20
PS1 (revised): Non-optimal routes=20
Routing via a centralized anchor often results in a longer route. The =
problem is especially manifested when accessing a local server or =
servers of a Content Delivery Network (CDN), or when receiving / sending =
IP multicast packets.=20
[Luis>>] This is correct if the multicast content is locally available. =
However this could not be always the case for multicast listeners, for a =
number of reasons (for instance, conflict in the multicast address =
allocation between the Home Network and the DMM domain).=20

[SF] Sure, and the same applies to "accessing a local server a CDN" - it =
is implicit that the content is locally available. But it can be =
improved as "when receiving locally available IP multicast or sending IP =
multicast".

PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic=20
IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility solutions =
 may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast subscriptions towards =
the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).  =
Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual mobile nodes is =
coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast subscription(s) is =
prone to be received through different upstream paths. This problem is =
potentially more severe in a distributed mobility environment =
[draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].=20
 =20
[Luis>>] This seems not to be a problem of the IP mobility solutions =
handling multicast traffic with mobility tunnels in general, but a =
problem of considering several upstream paths ending on the same =
mobility access router as a consequence of extending tunnels from =
previousMAR to newMAR to forward the multicast traffic.=20

[SF] Exactly. Which is more than likely to happen in a DMM solution, =
where all "mobility entities" may act as "mobility access routers", and, =
after mobility, we want to take advantage of the tunnel for the =
subscription. In those cases, care must be taken in order to not greatly =
magnify convergence problem observed e.g. in RFC6224.

Regards,
S=C3=A9rgio

 =20
H Anthony Chan=20
 =20
From:  <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> dmm-bounces@ietf.org [ =
<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
S=C3=A9rgio Figueiredo
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 5:24 PM
To:  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements=20
 =20
Hi Anthony,

Thank you for trying to progress on this matter. I mostly agree with =
your analysis.

As for the question you posed, first I would like to exactly understand =
what you mean with "multicast distribution scenario" in "DMM solutions =
should enable multicast services which are compatible with multicast =
distribution scenario, etc.". It seems like there is no major difference =
between this and the "DMM solutions should enable solutions to support =
multicast services." requirement? Aren't both expressing the need to =
enable multicast in a DMM solution?

As you stated, "neglecting" the requirement 7.1 we proposed, leads to =
the PSs you referred.  So, while 7.2 and 7.3 express the need for DMM =
solutions to allow deployment of multicast services, 7.1 concerns  "how" =
IP multicast should be enabled in order to avoid the aforementioned PSs. =
The usage of the word "flexible"is explained by:=20

"This flexibility enables different IP multicast flows with respect to a =
mobile host to be managed (e.g., subscribed, received and/or =
transmitted) using multiple endpoints".=20

In other words, compatibility with "multicast distribution scenario" =
doesn't necessarily avoid PS1 and PS6.

Thank you and best regards,
S=C3=A9rgio

On 11/19/2012 10:28 PM, h chan wrote:=20
There are 3 proposals for multicast requirements. Before comparing these =
proposals, let us understand what are the problems first. Two problem =
statements have been proposed:=20
 =20
PS1 (revised): Non-optimal routes=20
Routing via a centralized anchor often results in a longer route. The =
problem is especially manifested when accessing a local server or =
servers of a Content Delivery Network (CDN), or when receiving / sending =
IP multicast packets.=20
PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic=20
IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility solutions =
 may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast subscriptions towards =
the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).  =
Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual mobile nodes is =
coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast subscription(s) is =
prone to be received through different upstream paths. This problem is =
potentially more severe in a distributed mobility environment =
[draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].=20
 =20
Then, let us see whether all the 3 REQ proposals have the same =
intention. In the following, I rephrase them to highlight their =
similarities.=20
 =20
REQ7.1: Flexible multicast distribution=20
DMM solutions should be compatible with flexible multicast distribution =
scenario. Etc.=20
The Motivation is to allow flexibility in (enable) multicast solutions =
to solve the problems PS1 and PS6 as explained in use cases already =
presented and discussed in multimob wg.=20
 =20
REQ7.2:=20
DMM solutions should enable solutions to support multicast traffic.=20
 =20
(Original wording was "The DMM (unicast) solution MUST be specified in =
such a way that it can be extended to also support multicast traffic." I =
rephrase it to highlight the similarity with the other proposals and =
also changed the must to should.)=20
 =20
REQ7.3:=20
DMM solutions should enable solutions to support multicast services.=20
 =20
Original wording was =E2=80=9CDMM solutions should support multicast =
services =E2=80=A6 etc. Given that it is the scope of multimob and not =
dmm wg to provide the multicast solution, I think =
=E2=80=9Csupport=E2=80=9D here means =E2=80=9Cenable=E2=80=9D solutions =
to be developed (by multimob).=20
 =20
Similarity and subtle differences: Both REQ7.2 and REQ7.3 want to enable =
multicast services. Yet the explanation in REQ7.1 seems to indicate not =
just to enable any one multicast solution but also needs the flexibility =
in multicast solution. Not all multicast solutions are the same. Some of =
them results in PS1 or PS6.=20
 =20
Are there any are essential differences between:=20
In REQ7.1, DMM solutions should be compatible with flexible multicast =
distribution scenario, etc.=20
Versus=20
DMM solutions should enable multicast services which are compatible with =
multicast distribution scenario, etc.=20
 =20
H Anthony Chan=20
 =20
From:  <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> dmm-bounces@ietf.org [ =
<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
Seil Jeon
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 5:15 AM
To:  <mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com> pierrick.seite@orange.com
Cc:  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements=20
 =20
Hi Pierrick,=20
 =20
I=E2=80=99ve many times thought about your question. I would say how =
effectively should we deploy/support multicast over distributed mobility =
rather than distributed mobile multicast. As a result, you can find this =
deployment use case and gap analysis at  =
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03> =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03 =
presented in multimob several times.=20
 =20
In unicast DMM, main innovation is to distribute the anchor function at =
many access routers from single core. Following architectural concept of =
DMM, flexible multicast distribution is one of multicast requirement =
resulted from the draft described above.=20
 =20
REQ8: Flexible multicast distribution=20
"DMM solutions SHOULD be compatible with flexible multicast distribution =
scenarios. This flexibility enables different IP multicast flows with =
respect to a mobile host to be managed (e.g., subscribed, received =
and/or transmitted) using multiple endpoints".=20

Motivation: The motivation for this requirement is to enable flexibility =
in multicast distribution. The multicast solution may therefore avoid =
having multicast-capable access routers being restricted to manage all =
IP multicast traffic relative to a host via a single endpoint (e.g. =
regular or tunnel interface), which would lead to the problems described =
in PS1 and PS6.=20
PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic=20
IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility solutions =
 may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast subscriptions towards =
the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).  =
Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual mobile nodes is =
coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast subscription(s) is =
prone to be received through different upstream paths. This problem is =
potentially more severe in a distributed mobility environment =
[draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].



Regards,=20
 =20
Seil=20
 =20
From:  <mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com> pierrick.seite@orange.com [ =
<mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com> mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com]=20
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 8:55 AM
To: ' <mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl> karagian@cs.utwente.nl';  =
<mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt> seiljeon@av.it.pt;  =
<mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com> =
JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com
Cc:  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [DMM] Multicast requirements=20
 =20
Hi all,=20
 =20
I tend to agree with Georgious, however I still do not figure out what =
is the use-case for distributed mobile multicast (other than academic =
considerations)? Can someone give concrete example?=20
 =20
I haven=E2=80=99t real all messages from this thread. So, maybe I missed =
important points.=20
 =20
BR,=20
Pierrick=20
 =20
De :  <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> dmm-bounces@ietf.org [ =
<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de =
 <mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl> karagian@cs.utwente.nl
Envoy=C3=A9 : samedi 17 novembre 2012 13:01
=C3=80 :  <mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt> seiljeon@av.it.pt;  =
<mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com> =
JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com
Cc :  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements=20
 =20
Hi all,=20
 =20
I also agree that the DMM solution should somehow consider muticast =
deployment. However, I do not thnk that the DMM WG is the right WG to =
provide the multicast based DMM solution!=20
 =20
One alternative solution will be to have a multicast requirement that =
emphasizes the need of having extensibility hooks (possibilities) that =
can be used later on by the multimob WG to provide a=20
a multicast enabled DMM solution!=20
 =20
 =20
So a requirement that specifies something like the following could be =
used for this purpose:=20
 =20
"The DMM (unicast) solution MUST be specified in such a way that it can =
be extended to also support multicast traffic."=20
 =20
 =20
Best regards,=20
Georgios=20
 =20
 =20
 =20

=20

  _____ =20


Van:  <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> dmm-bounces@ietf.org [ =
<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> dmm-bounces@ietf.org] namens Seil Jeon [ =
<mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt> seiljeon@av.it.pt]
Verzonden: vrijdag 16 november 2012 22:25
To: 'Zuniga, Juan Carlos'
Cc:  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org
Onderwerp: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements=20
Hi Juan,

I've been looked at changed flow of your proposed text but sorry now =
that my
comment is posted.
At first time, I couldn't make sure however, on hearing Stig's =
description,
it seems quite reasonable at the first step, not giving any restrictions =
but
leaving some-specific for the DMM solution it does not support =
multicast.

On the other hand, it remains at a basic stage for the DMM solution to
support multicast.
So I think additional requirements need to be made for the DMM solution,
accordingly. But of course, this should not also give any specific
limitation and restriction but should be made towards the direction not
limiting the benefits provided by distributed deployment.

I hope to get more comments on this.

Regards,

Seil


-----Original Message-----
From:  <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> dmm-bounces@ietf.org [ =
<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Zuniga, Juan Carlos
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 8:14 PM
To: Stig Venaas;  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stig Venaas [ <mailto:stig@venaas.com> mailto:stig@venaas.com]
> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 3:01 PM
> To: jouni korhonen
> Cc:  <mailto:sarikaya@ieee.org> sarikaya@ieee.org; Zuniga, Juan =
Carlos; Konstantinos Pentikousis;=20
> Peter McCann;  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements
>=20
> On 11/15/2012 3:17 AM, jouni korhonen wrote:
> >
> > On Nov 15, 2012, at 1:03 AM, Behcet Sarikaya wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> I think we are reading too much into multicast and unicast should
be
> >> designed in an integrated manner.
> >>
> >> The fact is that multicast is considered as an area of
> specialization,
> >> it requires knowledge of very different protocols than we are=20
> >> accustomed to in mobility.
> >
> > "Requirement: DMM solutions SHOULD support multicast services. If a
> specific DMM solution does not support multicast services, an=20
> explanation MUST be provided."
>=20
> This sounds good to me.
>=20
> The main thing I want to achieve is what was describes as motivation=20
> earlier in this thread. Multicast should at least be considered when=20
> looking into DMM solutions, and not just an afterthought once the=20
> solution is decided.
>=20
> Stig

[JCZ] I fully agree with this. That was the intention of the proposed =
text.

Regards,

Juan Carlos

>=20
> > To me that reads basically "do not break foundations for multicast
> unless you have a valid & documented reason for it".  If we look e.g.
> into RFC625 multicast wording that is there very briefly but gives a=20
> hint to a developer where to head to. That is the level I would expect =

> DMM documents should aim to.
> >
> > - Jouni
> >
> >
> >> Let dmm deal with its current charter that does not include a word
> of
> >> multicast and if everything goes well we can come back and discuss
> dmm
> >> multicast.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Behcet

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lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowte=
xt'>Hi Anthony,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowte=
xt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowte=
xt'>For me, it=E2=80=99s ok and nice.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowte=
xt'>Thanks to your hard work.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowte=
xt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowte=
xt'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowte=
xt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowte=
xt'>Seil<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowte=
xt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'> h chan [mailto:h.anthony.chan@huawei.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> =
Tuesday, December 04, 2012 6:45 PM<br><b>To:</b> Seil Jeon; =
luo.wen@zte.com.cn<br><b>Cc:</b> dmm@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: =
[DMM] </span><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC;color:windowtext=
'>=E7=AD=94</span><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EC=83=88=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC","seri=
f";color:windowtext'>=E5=A4=8D</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'>: Re: Multicast PS to =
requirements<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'>Any changes/clarifications to PS6?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'>PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'>IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility =
solutions&nbsp;may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast =
subscriptions towards the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG =
in PMIPv6). &nbsp;Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual =
mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast =
subscription(s) is prone to be received through different upstream =
paths. This problem is potentially more severe in a distributed mobility =
environment [draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>H Anthony Chan<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'> <a href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a> =
[<a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>] =
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Seil Jeon<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 22, =
2012 4:27 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn">luo.wen@zte.com.cn</a><br><b>Cc:</b> =
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[DMM] </span><span lang=3DZH-CN =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft =
YaHei","sans-serif";color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>=E7=AD=94=
=E5=A4=8D</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'>: Re: Multicast PS to =
requirements<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowte=
xt'>Hi Luo,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowte=
xt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowte=
xt'>Additionally following the comment by =
Sergio,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowte=
xt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowte=
xt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'> <a href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a> =
[<a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>] =
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Sergio Figueiredo<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November =
22, 2012 9:35 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn">luo.wen@zte.com.cn</a><br><b>Cc:</b> =
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[DMM] </span><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun;color:windowtext'>=E7=AD=94=E5=
=A4=8D</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'>: Re: Multicast PS to =
requirements<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hi =
Luo,<br><br>Thanks for your comment. My answer is placed =
inline:<br><br>On 11/22/2012 08:02 AM, <a =
href=3D"mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn">luo.wen@zte.com.cn</a> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Hi =
S=C3=A9rgio</span> <br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'>&gt; PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'>&gt; IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility =
solutions &nbsp;may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast =
subscriptions towards the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG =
in PMIPv6). &nbsp;&gt;Concretely, when multicast subscription for =
individual mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate =
multicast subscription(s) is prone to be received through different =
upstream paths. This problem is potentially more severe in a distributed =
mobility environment =
[draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].</span> <br><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span></i></b> <br><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&gt;[Luis&gt;&gt;] This seems not to be a problem of the IP mobility =
solutions handling multicast traffic with mobility tunnels in general, =
but a problem of considering several upstream paths ending on the same =
mobility access router as a consequence of extending tunnels from =
previousMAR to newMAR to forward the multicast traffic.</span></i></b> =
<o:p></o:p></p><p><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; [SF] Exactly. =
Which is more than likely to happen in a DMM solution, where all =
&quot;mobility entities&quot; may act as &quot;mobility access =
routers&quot;, and, after mobility, we want to take advantage of the =
tunnel for the subscription. In those cases, care must be taken in order =
to not greatly magnify convergence problem observed e.g. in =
RFC6224.</span> <o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>[Luowen] According to the above discussion, I =
believe the PS6 &nbsp;is based on the usage scenarios discussed in =
</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'>draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>. But, it =
seems to me the </span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>usage scenarios =
in this draft is based on a assumed dmm unicast solution and =
architecture. IMHO, the PS should be based on current existing protocol =
(e.g. RFC) or current deployment, not a assumed =
solution.</span><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>SF: PS6 is observable is both existing =
protocols (e.g. RFC6224) and in the use cases we analyzed - in a =
PMIPv6-based DMM solution. So I assume the PS fits in the REQs document. =
As I said before, if ignored, the tunnel convergence problem might be a =
much serious problem than in RFC6224.<br><br></span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowte=
xt'>&gt;&gt; In the use case draft, there are any solutions not assumed. =
We presented use cases, having various deployments of existing multicast =
standard entities, and corresponding analysis based on distributed =
deployment specified in DMM REQ1.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowte=
xt'>No more, no less.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowte=
xt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowte=
xt'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowte=
xt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowte=
xt'>Seil<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><table =
class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D3 cellpadding=3D0 =
width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td width=3D"40%" valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:40.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>S=C3=A9rgio =
Figueiredo <a =
href=3D"mailto:sfigueiredo@av.it.pt">&lt;sfigueiredo@av.it.pt&gt;</a></sp=
an></b><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> =
</span><br><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:SimSun'>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA<=
/span><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>: =
&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a></span> =
<o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2012/11/21 =
07:21</span> <o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"59%" valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:59.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><table =
class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D3 cellpadding=3D0 =
width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:SimSun'>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt =
.75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a></span> =
<o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt =
.75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright =
style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:SimSun'>=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81</span><o:=
p></o:p></p></td><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt =
.75pt'></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt =
.75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright =
style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:SimSun'>=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98</span><o:=
p></o:p></p></td><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt =
.75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Re: [DMM] =
Multicast PS to requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable =
border=3D0 cellspacing=3D3 cellpadding=3D0><tr><td valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'></td><td valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'></td></tr></table><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></p></td></tr></table><p><br=
><br><br>Hi Luis,<br><br>A few more comments on this inline:<br><br>Em =
20-11-2012 19:46, LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO escreveu: <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Hi Anthony, </span><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>some comments in line </span><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Best regards,</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Luis</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span> <br><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>De:</span></=
b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
</span><a href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm-bounces@=
ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:dmm-b=
ounces@ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] <b>En =
nombre de </b>h chan<b><br>Enviado el:</b> martes, 20 de noviembre de =
2012 18:51<b><br>Para:</b> S=C3=A9rgio Figueiredo; </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org=
</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Asunto:<=
/span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [DMM] =
Multicast PS to requirements</span> <br>&nbsp; <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Let us also use another thread to check for consensus of the PS from =
multimob. </span><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>PS1 (revised): Non-optimal routes</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'>Routing via a centralized anchor often results in a longer route. The =
problem is especially manifested when accessing a local server or =
servers of a Content Delivery Network (CDN), <b>or when receiving / =
sending IP multicast packets</b>. </span><br><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>[Luis&gt;&gt;] This is correct if the multicast content is locally =
available. However this could not be always the case for multicast =
listeners, for a number of reasons (for instance, conflict in the =
multicast address allocation between the Home Network and the DMM =
domain). </span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p>[SF] Sure, and the same =
applies to &quot;accessing a local server a CDN&quot; - it is implicit =
that the content is locally available. But it can be improved as =
&quot;when receiving locally available IP multicast or sending IP =
multicast&quot;.<br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'>PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'>IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility =
solutions &nbsp;may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast =
subscriptions towards the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG =
in PMIPv6). &nbsp;Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual =
mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast =
subscription(s) is prone to be received through different upstream =
paths. This problem is potentially more severe in a distributed mobility =
environment [draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].</span> =
<br><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span></i></b> <br><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>[Luis&gt;&gt;] This seems not to be a problem of the IP mobility =
solutions handling multicast traffic with mobility tunnels in general, =
but a problem of considering several upstream paths ending on the same =
mobility access router as a consequence of extending tunnels from =
previousMAR to newMAR to forward the multicast traffic.</span></i></b> =
<o:p></o:p></p><p>[SF] Exactly. Which is more than likely to happen in a =
DMM solution, where all &quot;mobility entities&quot; may act as =
&quot;mobility access routers&quot;, and, after mobility, we want to =
take advantage of the tunnel for the subscription. In those cases, care =
must be taken in order to not greatly magnify convergence problem =
observed e.g. in RFC6224.<br><br>Regards,<br>S=C3=A9rgio<br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>H Anthony Chan</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span> <br><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
</span><a href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm-bounces@=
ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:dmm-b=
ounces@ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>S=C3=A9rgio Figueiredo<b><br>Sent:</b> Monday, November =
19, 2012 5:24 PM<b><br>To:</b> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org=
</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Subject:=
</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Re: [DMM] =
Multicast requirements</span> <br>&nbsp; <br>Hi Anthony,<br><br>Thank =
you for trying to progress on this matter. I mostly agree with your =
analysis.<br><br>As for the question you posed, first I would like to =
exactly understand what you mean with &quot;multicast distribution =
scenario&quot; in &quot;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>DMM solutions should enable multicast services which are compatible =
with multicast distribution scenario, etc.</span>&quot;. It seems like =
there is no major difference between this and the &quot;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>DMM solutions should enable solutions to support multicast =
services.</span>&quot; requirement? Aren't both expressing the need to =
enable multicast in a DMM solution?<br><br>As you stated, =
&quot;neglecting&quot; the requirement 7.1 we proposed, leads to the PSs =
you referred. &nbsp;So, while 7.2 and 7.3 express the need for DMM =
solutions to allow deployment of multicast services, 7.1 concerns =
&nbsp;&quot;how&quot; IP multicast should be enabled in order to avoid =
the aforementioned PSs. The usage of the word &quot;flexible&quot;is =
explained by: <br><br>&quot;This flexibility enables different IP =
multicast flows with respect to a mobile host to be managed (e.g., =
subscribed, received and/or transmitted) using multiple endpoints&quot;. =
<br><br>In other words, compatibility with &quot;multicast distribution =
scenario&quot; doesn't necessarily avoid PS1 and PS6.<br><br>Thank you =
and best regards,<br>S=C3=A9rgio<br><br>On 11/19/2012 10:28 PM, h chan =
wrote: <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>There are 3 proposals for multicast requirements. Before comparing =
these proposals, let us understand what are the problems first. Two =
problem statements have been proposed:</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>PS1 (revised): Non-optimal routes</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'>Routing via a centralized anchor often results in a longer route. The =
problem is especially manifested when accessing a local server or =
servers of a Content Delivery Network (CDN), <b>or when receiving / =
sending IP multicast packets</b>. </span><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'>PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'>IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility =
solutions &nbsp;may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast =
subscriptions towards the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG =
in PMIPv6). &nbsp;Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual =
mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast =
subscription(s) is prone to be received through different upstream =
paths. This problem is potentially more severe in a distributed mobility =
environment [draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].</span> =
<br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#0070C=
0'>&nbsp;</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Then, let us see whether all the 3 REQ proposals have the same =
intention. In the following, I rephrase them to highlight their =
similarities.</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>REQ7.1: Flexible multicast distribution</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>DMM solutions should be compatible with flexible multicast =
distribution scenario. Etc. </span><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>The Motivation is to allow flexibility in (enable) multicast =
solutions to solve the problems PS1 and PS6 as explained in use cases =
already presented and discussed in multimob wg.</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>REQ7.2: </span><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>DMM solutions should enable solutions to support multicast traffic. =
</span><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>(Original wording was &quot;The DMM (unicast) solution MUST be =
specified in such a way that it can be extended to also support =
multicast traffic.&quot; I rephrase it to highlight the similarity with =
the other proposals and also changed the must to should.)</span> =
<br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>REQ7.3:</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>DMM solutions should enable solutions to support multicast =
services.</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Original wording was =E2=80=9CDMM solutions should support multicast =
services =E2=80=A6 etc. Given that it is the scope of multimob and not =
dmm wg to provide the multicast solution, I think =
=E2=80=9Csupport=E2=80=9D here means =E2=80=9Cenable=E2=80=9D solutions =
to be developed (by multimob).</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Similarity and subtle differences: Both REQ7.2 and REQ7.3 want to =
enable multicast services. Yet the explanation in REQ7.1 seems to =
indicate not just to enable any one multicast solution but also needs =
the flexibility in multicast solution. Not all multicast solutions are =
the same. Some of them results in PS1 or PS6. </span><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Are there any are essential differences between:</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>In REQ7.1, DMM solutions should be compatible with flexible multicast =
distribution scenario, etc. </span><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Versus</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>DMM solutions should enable multicast services which are compatible =
with multicast distribution scenario, etc.</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>H Anthony Chan</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span> <br><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
</span><a href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm-bounces@=
ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:dmm-b=
ounces@ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>Seil Jeon<b><br>Sent:</b> Monday, November 19, 2012 5:15 =
AM<b><br>To:</b> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>pierrick.sei=
te@orange.com</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Cc:</spa=
n></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org=
</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Subject:=
</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Re: [DMM] =
Multicast requirements</span> <br>&nbsp; <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Hi =
Pierrick,</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span>=
 <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>I=E2=80=99ve =
many times thought about your question. I would say how effectively =
should we deploy/support multicast over distributed mobility rather than =
distributed mobile multicast. As a result, you can find this deployment =
use case and gap analysis at </span><a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dm=
m-03"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>http://tools.=
ietf.org/html/draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> presented =
in multimob several times.</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span>=
 <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>In unicast =
DMM, main innovation is to distribute the anchor function at many access =
routers from single core. Following architectural concept of DMM, =
flexible multicast distribution is one of multicast requirement resulted =
from the draft described above. </span><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span>=
 <br>REQ8: Flexible multicast distribution <br>&quot;DMM solutions =
SHOULD be compatible with flexible multicast distribution scenarios. =
This flexibility enables different IP multicast flows with respect to a =
mobile host to be managed (e.g., subscribed, received and/or =
transmitted) using multiple endpoints&quot;. <br><br>Motivation: The =
motivation for this requirement is to enable flexibility in multicast =
distribution. The multicast solution may therefore avoid having =
multicast-capable access routers being restricted to manage all IP =
multicast traffic relative to a host via a single endpoint (e.g. regular =
or tunnel interface), which would lead to the problems described in PS1 =
and PS6. <br>PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic <br>IP multicast =
distribution over architectures using IP mobility solutions &nbsp;may =
lead to convergence of duplicated multicast subscriptions towards the =
tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6). =
&nbsp;Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual mobile =
nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast =
subscription(s) is prone to be received through different upstream =
paths. This problem is potentially more severe in a distributed mobility =
environment =
[draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].<br><br><br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Regards,</spa=
n> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span>=
 <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Seil</span> =
<br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span>=
 <br><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
</span><a href=3D"mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>pierrick.sei=
te@orange.com</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:pierr=
ick.seite@orange.com</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] =
<b><br>Sent:</b> Monday, November 19, 2012 8:55 AM<b><br>To:</b> =
'</span><a href=3D"mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>karagian@cs.=
utwente.nl</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>'; =
</span><a href=3D"mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>seiljeon@av.=
it.pt</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>; </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>JuanCarlos.Z=
uniga@InterDigital.com</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Cc:</spa=
n></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org=
</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Subject:=
</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> RE: [DMM] =
Multicast requirements</span> <br>&nbsp; <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Hi all,</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I tend to agree with Georgious, however I still do not figure out =
what is the use-case for distributed mobile multicast (other than =
academic considerations)? Can someone give concrete example? =
</span><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I haven=E2=80=99t real all messages from this thread. So, maybe I =
missed important points.</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>BR,</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Pierrick</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span> <br><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>De =
:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm-bounces@=
ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:dmm-b=
ounces@ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] <b>De la =
part de</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>karagian@cs.=
utwente.nl</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Envoy=C3=
=A9 :</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> samedi 17 =
novembre 2012 13:01<b><br>=C3=80 :</b> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>seiljeon@av.=
it.pt</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>; </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>JuanCarlos.Z=
uniga@InterDigital.com</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Cc =
:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org=
</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Objet =
:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Re: [DMM] =
Multicast requirements</span> <br>&nbsp; <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Hi =
all,</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span=
> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>I also =
agree that the DMM solution should somehow consider muticast deployment. =
However, I do not thnk that the DMM WG is the right WG to provide the =
multicast based DMM solution!</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span=
> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>One =
alternative solution will be to have a multicast requirement that =
emphasizes the need of having extensibility hooks (possibilities) that =
can be used later on by the multimob WG to provide a </span><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>a multicast =
enabled DMM solution!</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span=
> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span=
> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>So a =
requirement that specifies something like the following could be used =
for this purpose:</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span=
> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>&quot;The =
DMM (unicast) solution MUST be specified in such a way that it can be =
extended to also support multicast traffic.&quot;</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span=
> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span=
> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Best =
regards,</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Georgios</sp=
an> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span=
> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span=
> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span=
> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'text-align:center'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div class=3DMsoNormal =
align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" =
align=3Dcenter></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><br><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Van:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
</span><a href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm-bounces@=
ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm-bounces@=
ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] namens =
Seil Jeon [</span><a href=3D"mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>seiljeon@av.=
it.pt</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>]<b><br>Verz=
onden:</b> vrijdag 16 november 2012 22:25<b><br>To:</b> 'Zuniga, Juan =
Carlos'<b><br>Cc:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org=
</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Onderwer=
p:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Re: [DMM] =
Multicast requirements</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Hi =
Juan,<br><br>I've been looked at changed flow of your proposed text but =
sorry now that my<br>comment is posted.<br>At first time, I couldn't =
make sure however, on hearing Stig's description,<br>it seems quite =
reasonable at the first step, not giving any restrictions but<br>leaving =
some-specific for the DMM solution it does not support =
multicast.<br><br>On the other hand, it remains at a basic stage for the =
DMM solution to<br>support multicast.<br>So I think additional =
requirements need to be made for the DMM solution,<br>accordingly. But =
of course, this should not also give any specific<br>limitation and =
restriction but should be made towards the direction not<br>limiting the =
benefits provided by distributed deployment.<br><br>I hope to get more =
comments on this.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Seil<br><br><br>-----Original =
Message-----<br>From: </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm-bounces@=
ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:dmm-b=
ounces@ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] On Behalf =
Of<br>Zuniga, Juan Carlos<br>Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 8:14 =
PM<br>To: Stig Venaas; </span><a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org=
</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Subject:=
 Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements<br><br><br>&gt; -----Original =
Message-----<br>&gt; From: Stig Venaas [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:stig@venaas.com" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:stig@=
venaas.com</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>]<br>&gt; =
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 3:01 PM<br>&gt; To: jouni =
korhonen<br>&gt; Cc: </span><a href=3D"mailto:sarikaya@ieee.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>sarikaya@iee=
e.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>; Zuniga, =
Juan Carlos; Konstantinos Pentikousis; <br>&gt; Peter McCann; </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org=
</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>&gt; =
Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements<br>&gt; <br>&gt; On 11/15/2012 =
3:17 AM, jouni korhonen wrote:<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; On Nov 15, =
2012, at 1:03 AM, Behcet Sarikaya wrote:<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; I think we are reading too much into multicast =
and unicast should<br>be<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; designed in an integrated =
manner.<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; The fact is that multicast is =
considered as an area of<br>&gt; specialization,<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; it =
requires knowledge of very different protocols than we are <br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt; accustomed to in mobility.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; =
&quot;Requirement: DMM solutions SHOULD support multicast services. If =
a<br>&gt; specific DMM solution does not support multicast services, an =
<br>&gt; explanation MUST be provided.&quot;<br>&gt; <br>&gt; This =
sounds good to me.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; The main thing I want to achieve is =
what was describes as motivation <br>&gt; earlier in this thread. =
Multicast should at least be considered when <br>&gt; looking into DMM =
solutions, and not just an afterthought once the <br>&gt; solution is =
decided.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Stig<br><br>[JCZ] I fully agree with this. =
That was the intention of the proposed text.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Juan =
Carlos<br><br>&gt; <br>&gt; &gt; To me that reads basically &quot;do not =
break foundations for multicast<br>&gt; unless you have a valid &amp; =
documented reason for it&quot;. &nbsp;If we look e.g.<br>&gt; into =
RFC625 multicast wording that is there very briefly but gives a <br>&gt; =
hint to a developer where to head to. That is the level I would expect =
<br>&gt; DMM documents should aim to.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; - =
Jouni<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Let dmm deal with its =
current charter that does not include a word<br>&gt; of<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; =
multicast and if everything goes well we can come back and =
discuss<br>&gt; dmm<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; multicast.<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt; Regards,<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; =
Behcet<br><br>_______________________________________________<br>dmm =
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From seiljeon@av.it.pt  Wed Dec  5 02:00:03 2012
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From: "Seil Jeon" <seiljeon@av.it.pt>
To: <luo.wen@zte.com.cn>, "'h chan'" <h.anthony.chan@huawei.com>
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Hi Luo,

=20

I=E2=80=99m happy to see we=E2=80=99re coming to agreement gradually. =
However, unfortunately, the draft is describing two former sentences =
with available use cases.

As you=E2=80=99re fully aware of this situation caused by duplicate =
multicast traffic, it=E2=80=99s more severe in DMM environment.

=20

I hope we also get agreement soon.

=20

Regards,

=20

Seil

=20

From: luo.wen@zte.com.cn [mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn]=20
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 1:23 AM
To: h chan
Cc: dmm@ietf.org; Seil Jeon; S=C3=A9rgio Figueiredo
Subject: =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: RE: [DMM] =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: Re: Multicast =
PS to requirements

=20


Hi=20

To me, the part of PS6 which are based on the analysis of RFC6224 is =
fine, and my suggestion is to keep the first two sentences and remove =
the last one.=20

Luowen=20





h chan <h.anthony.chan@huawei.com>=20

2012/12/05 02:45=20


=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA

Seil Jeon <seiljeon@av.it.pt>, "luo.wen@zte.com.cn" <luo.wen@zte.com.cn> =



=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81

"dmm@ietf.org" <dmm@ietf.org>=20


=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98

RE: [DMM]        =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: Re:  Multicast PS to requirements

=20

	=09




Any changes/clarifications to PS6?=20
 =20
PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic=20
IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility solutions =
may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast subscriptions towards =
the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).  =
Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual mobile nodes is =
coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast subscription(s) is =
prone to be received through different upstream paths. This problem is =
potentially more severe in a distributed mobility environment =
[draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].=20
 =20
H Anthony Chan=20
 =20
From: dmm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
Seil Jeon
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 4:27 PM
To: luo.wen@zte.com.cn
Cc: dmm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: Re: Multicast PS to requirements=20
 =20
Hi Luo,=20
 =20
Additionally following the comment by Sergio,=20
 =20
 =20
From: dmm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
Sergio Figueiredo
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 9:35 AM
To: luo.wen@zte.com.cn
Cc: dmm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: Re: Multicast PS to requirements=20
 =20
Hi Luo,

Thanks for your comment. My answer is placed inline:

On 11/22/2012 08:02 AM, luo.wen@zte.com.cn wrote:=20

Hi S=C3=A9rgio=20

> PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic=20
> IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility =
solutions  may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast subscriptions =
towards the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).  =
>Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual mobile nodes is =
coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast subscription(s) is =
prone to be received through different upstream paths. This problem is =
potentially more severe in a distributed mobility environment =
[draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].=20
=20
>[Luis>>] This seems not to be a problem of the IP mobility solutions =
handling multicast traffic with mobility tunnels in general, but a =
problem of considering several upstream paths ending on the same =
mobility access router as a consequence of extending tunnels from =
previousMAR to newMAR to forward the multicast traffic.=20

> [SF] Exactly. Which is more than likely to happen in a DMM solution, =
where all "mobility entities" may act as "mobility access routers", and, =
after mobility, we want to take advantage of the tunnel for the =
subscription. In those cases, care must be taken in order to not greatly =
magnify convergence problem observed e.g. in RFC6224.=20

[Luowen] According to the above discussion, I believe the PS6  is based =
on the usage scenarios discussed in =
draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03. But, it seems to me the =
usage scenarios in this draft is based on a assumed dmm unicast solution =
and architecture. IMHO, the PS should be based on current existing =
protocol (e.g. RFC) or current deployment, not a assumed solution.=20
SF: PS6 is observable is both existing protocols (e.g. RFC6224) and in =
the use cases we analyzed - in a PMIPv6-based DMM solution. So I assume =
the PS fits in the REQs document. As I said before, if ignored, the =
tunnel convergence problem might be a much serious problem than in =
RFC6224.

>> In the use case draft, there are any solutions not assumed. We =
presented use cases, having various deployments of existing multicast =
standard entities, and corresponding analysis based on distributed =
deployment specified in DMM REQ1.=20
No more, no less.=20
 =20
Regards,=20
 =20
Seil=20
 =20

=20


S=C3=A9rgio Figueiredo  <mailto:sfigueiredo@av.it.pt> =
<sfigueiredo@av.it.pt>=20
=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:   <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> =
dmm-bounces@ietf.org=20

2012/11/21 07:21=20

=20


=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA

 <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org=20


=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81

=09

=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98

Re: [DMM] Multicast PS to requirements


 =20

=20

	=09




Hi Luis,

A few more comments on this inline:

Em 20-11-2012 19:46, LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO escreveu:=20
Hi Anthony,=20
=20
some comments in line=20
=20
Best regards,=20
=20
Luis=20
=20
De:  <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> dmm-bounces@ietf.org [ =
<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] En nombre de =
h chan
Enviado el: martes, 20 de noviembre de 2012 18:51
Para: S=C3=A9rgio Figueiredo;  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org
Asunto: [DMM] Multicast PS to requirements=20
=20
Let us also use another thread to check for consensus of the PS from =
multimob.=20
=20
PS1 (revised): Non-optimal routes=20
Routing via a centralized anchor often results in a longer route. The =
problem is especially manifested when accessing a local server or =
servers of a Content Delivery Network (CDN), or when receiving / sending =
IP multicast packets.=20
[Luis>>] This is correct if the multicast content is locally available. =
However this could not be always the case for multicast listeners, for a =
number of reasons (for instance, conflict in the multicast address =
allocation between the Home Network and the DMM domain).=20

[SF] Sure, and the same applies to "accessing a local server a CDN" - it =
is implicit that the content is locally available. But it can be =
improved as "when receiving locally available IP multicast or sending IP =
multicast".

PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic=20
IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility solutions =
 may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast subscriptions towards =
the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).  =
Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual mobile nodes is =
coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast subscription(s) is =
prone to be received through different upstream paths. This problem is =
potentially more severe in a distributed mobility environment =
[draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].=20
=20
[Luis>>] This seems not to be a problem of the IP mobility solutions =
handling multicast traffic with mobility tunnels in general, but a =
problem of considering several upstream paths ending on the same =
mobility access router as a consequence of extending tunnels from =
previousMAR to newMAR to forward the multicast traffic.=20

[SF] Exactly. Which is more than likely to happen in a DMM solution, =
where all "mobility entities" may act as "mobility access routers", and, =
after mobility, we want to take advantage of the tunnel for the =
subscription. In those cases, care must be taken in order to not greatly =
magnify convergence problem observed e.g. in RFC6224.

Regards,
S=C3=A9rgio

=20
H Anthony Chan=20
=20
From:  <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> dmm-bounces@ietf.org [ =
<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
S=C3=A9rgio Figueiredo
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 5:24 PM
To:  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements=20
=20
Hi Anthony,

Thank you for trying to progress on this matter. I mostly agree with =
your analysis.

As for the question you posed, first I would like to exactly understand =
what you mean with "multicast distribution scenario" in "DMM solutions =
should enable multicast services which are compatible with multicast =
distribution scenario, etc.". It seems like there is no major difference =
between this and the "DMM solutions should enable solutions to support =
multicast services." requirement? Aren't both expressing the need to =
enable multicast in a DMM solution?

As you stated, "neglecting" the requirement 7.1 we proposed, leads to =
the PSs you referred.  So, while 7.2 and 7.3 express the need for DMM =
solutions to allow deployment of multicast services, 7.1 concerns  "how" =
IP multicast should be enabled in order to avoid the aforementioned PSs. =
The usage of the word "flexible"is explained by:=20

"This flexibility enables different IP multicast flows with respect to a =
mobile host to be managed (e.g., subscribed, received and/or =
transmitted) using multiple endpoints".=20

In other words, compatibility with "multicast distribution scenario" =
doesn't necessarily avoid PS1 and PS6.

Thank you and best regards,
S=C3=A9rgio

On 11/19/2012 10:28 PM, h chan wrote:=20
There are 3 proposals for multicast requirements. Before comparing these =
proposals, let us understand what are the problems first. Two problem =
statements have been proposed:=20
=20
PS1 (revised): Non-optimal routes=20
Routing via a centralized anchor often results in a longer route. The =
problem is especially manifested when accessing a local server or =
servers of a Content Delivery Network (CDN), or when receiving / sending =
IP multicast packets.=20
PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic=20
IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility solutions =
 may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast subscriptions towards =
the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).  =
Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual mobile nodes is =
coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast subscription(s) is =
prone to be received through different upstream paths. This problem is =
potentially more severe in a distributed mobility environment =
[draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].=20
=20
Then, let us see whether all the 3 REQ proposals have the same =
intention. In the following, I rephrase them to highlight their =
similarities.=20
=20
REQ7.1: Flexible multicast distribution=20
DMM solutions should be compatible with flexible multicast distribution =
scenario. Etc.=20
The Motivation is to allow flexibility in (enable) multicast solutions =
to solve the problems PS1 and PS6 as explained in use cases already =
presented and discussed in multimob wg.=20
=20
REQ7.2:=20
DMM solutions should enable solutions to support multicast traffic.=20
=20
(Original wording was "The DMM (unicast) solution MUST be specified in =
such a way that it can be extended to also support multicast traffic." I =
rephrase it to highlight the similarity with the other proposals and =
also changed the must to should.)=20
=20
REQ7.3:=20
DMM solutions should enable solutions to support multicast services.=20
=20
Original wording was =E2=80=9CDMM solutions should support multicast =
services =E2=80=A6 etc. Given that it is the scope of multimob and not =
dmm wg to provide the multicast solution, I think =
=E2=80=9Csupport=E2=80=9D here means =E2=80=9Cenable=E2=80=9D solutions =
to be developed (by multimob).=20
=20
Similarity and subtle differences: Both REQ7.2 and REQ7.3 want to enable =
multicast services. Yet the explanation in REQ7.1 seems to indicate not =
just to enable any one multicast solution but also needs the flexibility =
in multicast solution. Not all multicast solutions are the same. Some of =
them results in PS1 or PS6.=20
=20
Are there any are essential differences between:=20
In REQ7.1, DMM solutions should be compatible with flexible multicast =
distribution scenario, etc.=20
Versus=20
DMM solutions should enable multicast services which are compatible with =
multicast distribution scenario, etc.=20
=20
H Anthony Chan=20
=20
From:  <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> dmm-bounces@ietf.org [ =
<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
Seil Jeon
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 5:15 AM
To:  <mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com> pierrick.seite@orange.com
Cc:  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements=20
=20
Hi Pierrick,=20
=20
I=E2=80=99ve many times thought about your question. I would say how =
effectively should we deploy/support multicast over distributed mobility =
rather than distributed mobile multicast. As a result, you can find this =
deployment use case and gap analysis at  =
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03> =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03 =
presented in multimob several times.=20
=20
In unicast DMM, main innovation is to distribute the anchor function at =
many access routers from single core. Following architectural concept of =
DMM, flexible multicast distribution is one of multicast requirement =
resulted from the draft described above.=20
=20
REQ8: Flexible multicast distribution=20
"DMM solutions SHOULD be compatible with flexible multicast distribution =
scenarios. This flexibility enables different IP multicast flows with =
respect to a mobile host to be managed (e.g., subscribed, received =
and/or transmitted) using multiple endpoints".=20

Motivation: The motivation for this requirement is to enable flexibility =
in multicast distribution. The multicast solution may therefore avoid =
having multicast-capable access routers being restricted to manage all =
IP multicast traffic relative to a host via a single endpoint (e.g. =
regular or tunnel interface), which would lead to the problems described =
in PS1 and PS6.=20
PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic=20
IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility solutions =
 may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast subscriptions towards =
the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).  =
Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual mobile nodes is =
coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast subscription(s) is =
prone to be received through different upstream paths. This problem is =
potentially more severe in a distributed mobility environment =
[draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].



Regards,=20
=20
Seil=20
=20
From:  <mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com> pierrick.seite@orange.com [ =
<mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com> mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com]=20
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 8:55 AM
To: ' <mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl> karagian@cs.utwente.nl';  =
<mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt> seiljeon@av.it.pt;  =
<mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com> =
JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com
Cc:  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [DMM] Multicast requirements=20
=20
Hi all,=20
=20
I tend to agree with Georgious, however I still do not figure out what =
is the use-case for distributed mobile multicast (other than academic =
considerations)? Can someone give concrete example?=20
=20
I haven=E2=80=99t real all messages from this thread. So, maybe I missed =
important points.=20
=20
BR,=20
Pierrick=20
=20
De :  <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> dmm-bounces@ietf.org [ =
<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de =
 <mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl> karagian@cs.utwente.nl
Envoy=C3=A9 : samedi 17 novembre 2012 13:01
=C3=80 :  <mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt> seiljeon@av.it.pt;  =
<mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com> =
JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com
Cc :  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements=20
=20
Hi all,=20
=20
I also agree that the DMM solution should somehow consider muticast =
deployment. However, I do not thnk that the DMM WG is the right WG to =
provide the multicast based DMM solution!=20
=20
One alternative solution will be to have a multicast requirement that =
emphasizes the need of having extensibility hooks (possibilities) that =
can be used later on by the multimob WG to provide a=20
a multicast enabled DMM solution!=20
=20
=20
So a requirement that specifies something like the following could be =
used for this purpose:=20
=20
"The DMM (unicast) solution MUST be specified in such a way that it can =
be extended to also support multicast traffic."=20
=20
=20
Best regards,=20
Georgios=20
=20
=20
 =20


 =20

  _____ =20



Van:  <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> dmm-bounces@ietf.org [ =
<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> dmm-bounces@ietf.org] namens Seil Jeon [ =
<mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt> seiljeon@av.it.pt]
Verzonden: vrijdag 16 november 2012 22:25
To: 'Zuniga, Juan Carlos'
Cc:  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org
Onderwerp: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements=20
Hi Juan,

I've been looked at changed flow of your proposed text but sorry now =
that my
comment is posted.
At first time, I couldn't make sure however, on hearing Stig's =
description,
it seems quite reasonable at the first step, not giving any restrictions =
but
leaving some-specific for the DMM solution it does not support =
multicast.

On the other hand, it remains at a basic stage for the DMM solution to
support multicast.
So I think additional requirements need to be made for the DMM solution,
accordingly. But of course, this should not also give any specific
limitation and restriction but should be made towards the direction not
limiting the benefits provided by distributed deployment.

I hope to get more comments on this.

Regards,

Seil


-----Original Message-----
From:  <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> dmm-bounces@ietf.org [ =
<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Zuniga, Juan Carlos
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 8:14 PM
To: Stig Venaas;  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stig Venaas [ <mailto:stig@venaas.com> mailto:stig@venaas.com]
> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 3:01 PM
> To: jouni korhonen
> Cc:  <mailto:sarikaya@ieee.org> sarikaya@ieee.org; Zuniga, Juan =
Carlos; Konstantinos Pentikousis;=20
> Peter McCann;  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements
>=20
> On 11/15/2012 3:17 AM, jouni korhonen wrote:
> >
> > On Nov 15, 2012, at 1:03 AM, Behcet Sarikaya wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> I think we are reading too much into multicast and unicast should
be
> >> designed in an integrated manner.
> >>
> >> The fact is that multicast is considered as an area of
> specialization,
> >> it requires knowledge of very different protocols than we are=20
> >> accustomed to in mobility.
> >
> > "Requirement: DMM solutions SHOULD support multicast services. If a
> specific DMM solution does not support multicast services, an=20
> explanation MUST be provided."
>=20
> This sounds good to me.
>=20
> The main thing I want to achieve is what was describes as motivation=20
> earlier in this thread. Multicast should at least be considered when=20
> looking into DMM solutions, and not just an afterthought once the=20
> solution is decided.
>=20
> Stig

[JCZ] I fully agree with this. That was the intention of the proposed =
text.

Regards,

Juan Carlos

>=20
> > To me that reads basically "do not break foundations for multicast
> unless you have a valid & documented reason for it".  If we look e.g.
> into RFC625 multicast wording that is there very briefly but gives a=20
> hint to a developer where to head to. That is the level I would expect =

> DMM documents should aim to.
> >
> > - Jouni
> >
> >
> >> Let dmm deal with its current charter that does not include a word
> of
> >> multicast and if everything goes well we can come back and discuss
> dmm
> >> multicast.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Behcet

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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Hi =
Luo,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>I=E2=80=99m =
happy to see we=E2=80=99re coming to agreement gradually. However, =
unfortunately, the draft is describing two former sentences with =
available use cases.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>As =
you=E2=80=99re fully aware of this situation caused by duplicate =
multicast traffic, it=E2=80=99s more severe in DMM =
environment.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>I hope we =
also get agreement soon.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Regards,<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Seil<o:p></o:=
p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
luo.wen@zte.com.cn [mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn] <br><b>Sent:</b> =
Wednesday, December 05, 2012 1:23 AM<br><b>To:</b> h chan<br><b>Cc:</b> =
dmm@ietf.org; Seil Jeon; S=C3=A9rgio Figueiredo<br><b>Subject:</b> =
</span><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC'>=E7=AD=94</span=
><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EC=83=88=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC","seri=
f"'>=E5=A4=8D</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>: RE: [DMM] =
</span><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC'>=E7=AD=94</span=
><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EC=83=88=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC","seri=
f"'>=E5=A4=8D</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>: Re: =
Multicast PS to requirements<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Hi</span> =
<br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To me, the =
part of PS6 which are based on the analysis of RFC6224 is fine, and my =
suggestion is to keep the first two sentences and remove the last =
one.</span> <br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Luowen</span>=
 <br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 =
cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td =
width=3D"40%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:40.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt =
.75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>h chan &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:h.anthony.chan@huawei.com">h.anthony.chan@huawei.com</a>&g=
t;</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> =
</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2012/12/05 =
02:45</span> <o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"59%" valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:59.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><table =
class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" =
style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt =
.75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright =
style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"=EB=B0=94=ED=83=95","serif"'>=E6=94=
=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Seil Jeon =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt">seiljeon@av.it.pt</a>&gt;, =
&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn">luo.wen@zte.com.cn</a>&quot; =
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn">luo.wen@zte.com.cn</a>&gt;</span> =
<o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt =
.75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright =
style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"=EB=B0=94=ED=83=95","serif"'>=E6=8A=
=84=E9=80=81</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&quot;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span> =
<o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt =
.75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright =
style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"=EB=B0=94=ED=83=95","serif"'>=E4=B8=
=BB</span><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"=EC=83=88=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC","serif=
"'>=E9=A2=98</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>RE: [DMM] =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</span><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"=EB=B0=94=ED=83=95","serif"'>=E7=AD=
=94</span><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"=EC=83=88=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC","serif=
"'>=E5=A4=8D</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>: Re: =
&nbsp;Multicast PS to =
requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable =
border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt =
.75pt .75pt .75pt'></td><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt =
.75pt .75pt'></td></tr></table></td></tr></table><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'>Any changes/clarifications to PS6?</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'>&nbsp;</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'>PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'><br>IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility =
solutions may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast subscriptions =
towards the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6). =
&nbsp;Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual mobile =
nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast =
subscription(s) is prone to be received through different upstream =
paths. This problem is potentially more severe in a distributed mobility =
environment [draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].</span> =
<br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>H Anthony Chan</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span> <br><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>] =
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Seil Jeon<b><br>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 22, =
2012 4:27 PM<b><br>To:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn">luo.wen@zte.com.cn</a><b><br>Cc:</b> =
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a><b><br>Subject:</b> Re: =
[DMM] </span><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=B0=94=ED=83=95","serif"'>=E7=AD=
=94</span><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EC=83=88=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC","seri=
f"'>=E5=A4=8D</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>: Re: =
Multicast PS to requirements</span> <br>&nbsp; <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Hi =
Luo,</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span>=
 <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Additionally =
following the comment by Sergio,</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span>=
 <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span>=
 <br><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org</a>] =
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Sergio Figueiredo<b><br>Sent:</b> Thursday, November =
22, 2012 9:35 AM<b><br>To:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn">luo.wen@zte.com.cn</a><b><br>Cc:</b> =
<a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a><b><br>Subject:</b> Re: =
[DMM] </span><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=B0=94=ED=83=95","serif"'>=E7=AD=
=94</span><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EC=83=88=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC","seri=
f"'>=E5=A4=8D</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>: Re: =
Multicast PS to requirements</span> <br>&nbsp; <br>Hi Luo,<br><br>Thanks =
for your comment. My answer is placed inline:<br><br>On 11/22/2012 08:02 =
AM, <a href=3D"mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn">luo.wen@zte.com.cn</a> wrote: =
<br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>Hi =
S=C3=A9rgio</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'><br>&gt; PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'><br>&gt; IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP =
mobility solutions &nbsp;may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast =
subscriptions towards the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG =
in PMIPv6). &nbsp;&gt;Concretely, when multicast subscription for =
individual mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate =
multicast subscription(s) is prone to be received through different =
upstream paths. This problem is potentially more severe in a distributed =
mobility environment =
[draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].</span> <b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br></span></i></b>&nbsp;<b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>&gt;[Luis&gt;&gt;] This seems not to be a problem of the IP =
mobility solutions handling multicast traffic with mobility tunnels in =
general, but a problem of considering several upstream paths ending on =
the same mobility access router as a consequence of extending tunnels =
from previousMAR to newMAR to forward the multicast =
traffic.</span></i></b> <o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; [SF] Exactly. Which is more than likely =
to happen in a DMM solution, where all &quot;mobility entities&quot; may =
act as &quot;mobility access routers&quot;, and, after mobility, we want =
to take advantage of the tunnel for the subscription. In those cases, =
care must be taken in order to not greatly magnify convergence problem =
observed e.g. in RFC6224.</span> <o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>[Luowen] According to the above discussion, I =
believe the PS6 &nbsp;is based on the usage scenarios discussed in =
</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'>draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>. But, it =
seems to me the </span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>usage scenarios =
in this draft is based on a assumed dmm unicast solution and =
architecture. IMHO, the PS should be based on current existing protocol =
(e.g. RFC) or current deployment, not a assumed solution.</span> =
<br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>SF: PS6 is observable is both =
existing protocols (e.g. RFC6224) and in the use cases we analyzed - in =
a PMIPv6-based DMM solution. So I assume the PS fits in the REQs =
document. As I said before, if ignored, the tunnel convergence problem =
might be a much serious problem than in RFC6224.<br></span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>&gt;&gt; =
In the use case draft, there are any solutions not assumed. We presented =
use cases, having various deployments of existing multicast standard =
entities, and corresponding analysis based on distributed deployment =
specified in DMM REQ1.</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>No more, no =
less.</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span>=
 <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Regards,</spa=
n> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span>=
 <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Seil</span> =
<br>&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><table =
class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" =
style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>S=C3=A9rgio =
Figueiredo </span></b><a href=3D"mailto:sfigueiredo@av.it.pt"><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&lt;sfigueired=
o@av.it.pt&gt;</span></b></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'><br></span><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"=EC=83=88=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC","serif=
"'>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>: =
&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>dmm-bounces@ie=
tf.org</span></a> <o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2012/11/21 =
07:21</span> <o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"49%" valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:49.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable =
border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td =
width=3D"14%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:14.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt =
.75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright =
style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"=EB=B0=94=ED=83=95","serif"'>=E6=94=
=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"85%" =
valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:85.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org</=
span></a> <o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"=EB=B0=94=ED=83=95","serif"'>=E6=8A=
=84=E9=80=81</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"=EB=B0=94=ED=83=95","serif"'>=E4=B8=
=BB</span><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"=EC=83=88=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC","serif=
"'>=E9=A2=98</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Re: [DMM] =
Multicast PS to requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br>&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable =
border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td =
width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt =
.75pt .75pt'></td><td width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt =
.75pt'></td></tr></table></td></tr></table><p><br><br><br>Hi =
Luis,<br><br>A few more comments on this inline:<br><br>Em 20-11-2012 =
19:46, LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO escreveu: <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>Hi Anthony, <br></span>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>some comments in line <br></span>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>Best regards,</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br></span>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>Luis</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br></span>&nbsp;<b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>De:</spa=
n></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm-bounces@=
ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:dmm-b=
ounces@ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] <b>En =
nombre de </b>h chan<b><br>Enviado el:</b> martes, 20 de noviembre de =
2012 18:51<b><br>Para:</b> S=C3=A9rgio Figueiredo; </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org=
</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Asunto:<=
/span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [DMM] =
Multicast PS to requirements</span> <br>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>Let us also use another thread to check for consensus of the PS =
from multimob. <br></span>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>PS1 (revised): Non-optimal routes</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'><br>Routing via a centralized anchor often results in a longer route. =
The problem is especially manifested when accessing a local server or =
servers of a Content Delivery Network (CDN), <b>or when receiving / =
sending IP multicast packets</b>. </span><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>[Luis&gt;&gt;] This is correct if the multicast content is =
locally available. However this could not be always the case for =
multicast listeners, for a number of reasons (for instance, conflict in =
the multicast address allocation between the Home Network and the DMM =
domain). </span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p>[SF] Sure, and the same =
applies to &quot;accessing a local server a CDN&quot; - it is implicit =
that the content is locally available. But it can be improved as =
&quot;when receiving locally available IP multicast or sending IP =
multicast&quot;.<br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'><br>PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'><br>IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility =
solutions &nbsp;may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast =
subscriptions towards the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG =
in PMIPv6). &nbsp;Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual =
mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast =
subscription(s) is prone to be received through different upstream =
paths. This problem is potentially more severe in a distributed mobility =
environment [draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].</span> =
<b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br></span></i></b>&nbsp;<b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>[Luis&gt;&gt;] This seems not to be a problem of the IP mobility =
solutions handling multicast traffic with mobility tunnels in general, =
but a problem of considering several upstream paths ending on the same =
mobility access router as a consequence of extending tunnels from =
previousMAR to newMAR to forward the multicast traffic.</span></i></b> =
<o:p></o:p></p><p>[SF] Exactly. Which is more than likely to happen in a =
DMM solution, where all &quot;mobility entities&quot; may act as =
&quot;mobility access routers&quot;, and, after mobility, we want to =
take advantage of the tunnel for the subscription. In those cases, care =
must be taken in order to not greatly magnify convergence problem =
observed e.g. in RFC6224.<br><br>Regards,<br>S=C3=A9rgio<br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br></span>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>H Anthony Chan</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br></span>&nbsp;<b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>From:</s=
pan></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm-bounces@=
ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:dmm-b=
ounces@ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>S=C3=A9rgio Figueiredo<b><br>Sent:</b> Monday, November =
19, 2012 5:24 PM<b><br>To:</b> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org=
</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Subject:=
</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Re: [DMM] =
Multicast requirements</span> <br>&nbsp;<br>Hi Anthony,<br><br>Thank you =
for trying to progress on this matter. I mostly agree with your =
analysis.<br><br>As for the question you posed, first I would like to =
exactly understand what you mean with &quot;multicast distribution =
scenario&quot; in &quot;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>DMM solutions should enable multicast services which are compatible =
with multicast distribution scenario, etc.</span>&quot;. It seems like =
there is no major difference between this and the &quot;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>DMM solutions should enable solutions to support multicast =
services.</span>&quot; requirement? Aren't both expressing the need to =
enable multicast in a DMM solution?<br><br>As you stated, =
&quot;neglecting&quot; the requirement 7.1 we proposed, leads to the PSs =
you referred. &nbsp;So, while 7.2 and 7.3 express the need for DMM =
solutions to allow deployment of multicast services, 7.1 concerns =
&nbsp;&quot;how&quot; IP multicast should be enabled in order to avoid =
the aforementioned PSs. The usage of the word &quot;flexible&quot;is =
explained by: <br><br>&quot;This flexibility enables different IP =
multicast flows with respect to a mobile host to be managed (e.g., =
subscribed, received and/or transmitted) using multiple endpoints&quot;. =
<br><br>In other words, compatibility with &quot;multicast distribution =
scenario&quot; doesn't necessarily avoid PS1 and PS6.<br><br>Thank you =
and best regards,<br>S=C3=A9rgio<br><br>On 11/19/2012 10:28 PM, h chan =
wrote: <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>There are 3 proposals for multicast requirements. Before =
comparing these proposals, let us understand what are the problems =
first. Two problem statements have been proposed:</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br></span>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>PS1 (revised): Non-optimal routes</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'><br>Routing via a centralized anchor often results in a longer route. =
The problem is especially manifested when accessing a local server or =
servers of a Content Delivery Network (CDN), <b>or when receiving / =
sending IP multicast packets</b>. <br>PS6: Duplicate multicast =
traffic</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'><br>IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility =
solutions &nbsp;may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast =
subscriptions towards the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG =
in PMIPv6). &nbsp;Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual =
mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast =
subscription(s) is prone to be received through different upstream =
paths. This problem is potentially more severe in a distributed mobility =
environment [draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#0070C=
0'><br></span>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>Then, let us see whether all the 3 REQ proposals have the same =
intention. In the following, I rephrase them to highlight their =
similarities.</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br></span>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>REQ7.1: Flexible multicast distribution</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>DMM solutions should be compatible with flexible multicast =
distribution scenario. Etc. <br>The Motivation is to allow flexibility =
in (enable) multicast solutions to solve the problems PS1 and PS6 as =
explained in use cases already presented and discussed in multimob =
wg.</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br></span>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>REQ7.2: <br>DMM solutions should enable solutions to support =
multicast traffic. <br></span>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>(Original wording was &quot;The DMM (unicast) solution MUST be =
specified in such a way that it can be extended to also support =
multicast traffic.&quot; I rephrase it to highlight the similarity with =
the other proposals and also changed the must to should.)</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br></span>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>REQ7.3:</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>DMM solutions should enable solutions to support multicast =
services.</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br></span>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>Original wording was =E2=80=9CDMM solutions should support =
multicast services =E2=80=A6 etc. Given that it is the scope of multimob =
and not dmm wg to provide the multicast solution, I think =
=E2=80=9Csupport=E2=80=9D here means =E2=80=9Cenable=E2=80=9D solutions =
to be developed (by multimob).</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br></span>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>Similarity and subtle differences: Both REQ7.2 and REQ7.3 want to =
enable multicast services. Yet the explanation in REQ7.1 seems to =
indicate not just to enable any one multicast solution but also needs =
the flexibility in multicast solution. Not all multicast solutions are =
the same. Some of them results in PS1 or PS6. <br></span>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>Are there any are essential differences between:</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>In REQ7.1, DMM solutions should be compatible with flexible =
multicast distribution scenario, etc. <br>Versus</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>DMM solutions should enable multicast services which are =
compatible with multicast distribution scenario, etc.</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br></span>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>H Anthony Chan</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br></span>&nbsp;<b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>From:</s=
pan></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm-bounces@=
ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:dmm-b=
ounces@ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>Seil Jeon<b><br>Sent:</b> Monday, November 19, 2012 5:15 =
AM<b><br>To:</b> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>pierrick.sei=
te@orange.com</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Cc:</spa=
n></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org=
</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Subject:=
</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Re: [DMM] =
Multicast requirements</span> <br>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>Hi =
Pierrick,</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br></span>&n=
bsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>I=E2=80=99=
ve many times thought about your question. I would say how effectively =
should we deploy/support multicast over distributed mobility rather than =
distributed mobile multicast. As a result, you can find this deployment =
use case and gap analysis at </span><a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dm=
m-03"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>http://tools.=
ietf.org/html/draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> presented =
in multimob several times.</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br></span>&n=
bsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>In =
unicast DMM, main innovation is to distribute the anchor function at =
many access routers from single core. Following architectural concept of =
DMM, flexible multicast distribution is one of multicast requirement =
resulted from the draft described above. <br></span>&nbsp;<br>REQ8: =
Flexible multicast distribution <br>&quot;DMM solutions SHOULD be =
compatible with flexible multicast distribution scenarios. This =
flexibility enables different IP multicast flows with respect to a =
mobile host to be managed (e.g., subscribed, received and/or =
transmitted) using multiple endpoints&quot;. <br><br>Motivation: The =
motivation for this requirement is to enable flexibility in multicast =
distribution. The multicast solution may therefore avoid having =
multicast-capable access routers being restricted to manage all IP =
multicast traffic relative to a host via a single endpoint (e.g. regular =
or tunnel interface), which would lead to the problems described in PS1 =
and PS6. <br>PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic <br>IP multicast =
distribution over architectures using IP mobility solutions &nbsp;may =
lead to convergence of duplicated multicast subscriptions towards the =
tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6). =
&nbsp;Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual mobile =
nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast =
subscription(s) is prone to be received through different upstream =
paths. This problem is potentially more severe in a distributed mobility =
environment =
[draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].<br><br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>Regards,<=
/span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br></span>&n=
bsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>Seil</spa=
n> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br></span>&n=
bsp;<b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>From:</s=
pan></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>pierrick.sei=
te@orange.com</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:pierr=
ick.seite@orange.com</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] =
<b><br>Sent:</b> Monday, November 19, 2012 8:55 AM<b><br>To:</b> =
'</span><a href=3D"mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>karagian@cs.=
utwente.nl</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>'; =
</span><a href=3D"mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>seiljeon@av.=
it.pt</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>; </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>JuanCarlos.Z=
uniga@InterDigital.com</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Cc:</spa=
n></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org=
</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Subject:=
</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> RE: [DMM] =
Multicast requirements</span> <br>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>Hi all,</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br></span>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>I tend to agree with Georgious, however I still do not figure out =
what is the use-case for distributed mobile multicast (other than =
academic considerations)? Can someone give concrete example? =
<br></span>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>I haven=E2=80=99t real all messages from this thread. So, maybe I =
missed important points.</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br></span>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>BR,</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>Pierrick</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br></span>&nbsp;<b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>De =
:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm-bounces@=
ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:dmm-b=
ounces@ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] <b>De la =
part de</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>karagian@cs.=
utwente.nl</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Envoy=C3=
=A9 :</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> samedi 17 =
novembre 2012 13:01<b><br>=C3=80 :</b> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>seiljeon@av.=
it.pt</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>; </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>JuanCarlos.Z=
uniga@InterDigital.com</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Cc =
:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org=
</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Objet =
:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Re: [DMM] =
Multicast requirements</span> <br>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Hi =
all,</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br></span>&=
nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>I also =
agree that the DMM solution should somehow consider muticast deployment. =
However, I do not thnk that the DMM WG is the right WG to provide the =
multicast based DMM solution!</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br></span>&=
nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>One =
alternative solution will be to have a multicast requirement that =
emphasizes the need of having extensibility hooks (possibilities) that =
can be used later on by the multimob WG to provide a <br>a multicast =
enabled DMM solution!</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br></span>&=
nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br></span>&=
nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>So a =
requirement that specifies something like the following could be used =
for this purpose:</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br></span>&=
nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>&quot;Th=
e DMM (unicast) solution MUST be specified in such a way that it can be =
extended to also support multicast traffic.&quot;</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br></span>&=
nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br></span>&=
nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Best =
regards,</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Georgios=
</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br></span>&=
nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br></span>&=
nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br></span>&=
nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'text-align:center'><br>&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p><div =
class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><hr =
size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Van:</sp=
an></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm-bounces@=
ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm-bounces@=
ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] namens =
Seil Jeon [</span><a href=3D"mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>seiljeon@av.=
it.pt</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>]<b><br>Verz=
onden:</b> vrijdag 16 november 2012 22:25<b><br>To:</b> 'Zuniga, Juan =
Carlos'<b><br>Cc:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org=
</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Onderwer=
p:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Re: [DMM] =
Multicast requirements</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Hi =
Juan,<br><br>I've been looked at changed flow of your proposed text but =
sorry now that my<br>comment is posted.<br>At first time, I couldn't =
make sure however, on hearing Stig's description,<br>it seems quite =
reasonable at the first step, not giving any restrictions but<br>leaving =
some-specific for the DMM solution it does not support =
multicast.<br><br>On the other hand, it remains at a basic stage for the =
DMM solution to<br>support multicast.<br>So I think additional =
requirements need to be made for the DMM solution,<br>accordingly. But =
of course, this should not also give any specific<br>limitation and =
restriction but should be made towards the direction not<br>limiting the =
benefits provided by distributed deployment.<br><br>I hope to get more =
comments on this.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Seil<br><br><br>-----Original =
Message-----<br>From: </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm-bounces@=
ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:dmm-b=
ounces@ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] On Behalf =
Of<br>Zuniga, Juan Carlos<br>Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 8:14 =
PM<br>To: Stig Venaas; </span><a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org=
</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Subject:=
 Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements<br><br><br>&gt; -----Original =
Message-----<br>&gt; From: Stig Venaas [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:stig@venaas.com" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:stig@=
venaas.com</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>]<br>&gt; =
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 3:01 PM<br>&gt; To: jouni =
korhonen<br>&gt; Cc: </span><a href=3D"mailto:sarikaya@ieee.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>sarikaya@iee=
e.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>; Zuniga, =
Juan Carlos; Konstantinos Pentikousis; <br>&gt; Peter McCann; </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org=
</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>&gt; =
Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements<br>&gt; <br>&gt; On 11/15/2012 =
3:17 AM, jouni korhonen wrote:<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; On Nov 15, =
2012, at 1:03 AM, Behcet Sarikaya wrote:<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; I think we are reading too much into multicast =
and unicast should<br>be<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; designed in an integrated =
manner.<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; The fact is that multicast is =
considered as an area of<br>&gt; specialization,<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; it =
requires knowledge of very different protocols than we are <br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt; accustomed to in mobility.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; =
&quot;Requirement: DMM solutions SHOULD support multicast services. If =
a<br>&gt; specific DMM solution does not support multicast services, an =
<br>&gt; explanation MUST be provided.&quot;<br>&gt; <br>&gt; This =
sounds good to me.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; The main thing I want to achieve is =
what was describes as motivation <br>&gt; earlier in this thread. =
Multicast should at least be considered when <br>&gt; looking into DMM =
solutions, and not just an afterthought once the <br>&gt; solution is =
decided.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Stig<br><br>[JCZ] I fully agree with this. =
That was the intention of the proposed text.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Juan =
Carlos<br><br>&gt; <br>&gt; &gt; To me that reads basically &quot;do not =
break foundations for multicast<br>&gt; unless you have a valid &amp; =
documented reason for it&quot;. &nbsp;If we look e.g.<br>&gt; into =
RFC625 multicast wording that is there very briefly but gives a <br>&gt; =
hint to a developer where to head to. That is the level I would expect =
<br>&gt; DMM documents should aim to.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; - =
Jouni<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Let dmm deal with its =
current charter that does not include a word<br>&gt; of<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; =
multicast and if everything goes well we can come back and =
discuss<br>&gt; dmm<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; multicast.<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt; Regards,<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; =
Behcet<br><br>_______________________________________________<br>dmm =
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Hi Luo,

=20

See the inline, please.

=20

Regards,

=20

Seil

=20

From: luo.wen@zte.com.cn [mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn]=20
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2012 1:12 AM
To: Seil Jeon
Cc: dmm@ietf.org; 'h chan'; 'S=C3=A9rgio Figueiredo'
Subject: =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: RE: RE: [DMM] =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: Re: =
Multicast PS to requirements

=20


Hi Seil,=20

I see the situation caused by duplicate multicast traffic, that is the =
issue brought by RFC 6224, is that true? If it is true, then I think we =
have already got the use case.=20
>> Sure. Don=E2=80=99t forget we=E2=80=99re discussing on the DMM. =
Importantly, this situation may also happen in DMM use cases as long as =
we use a tunnel scheme as key role of IP mobility.

What we should do in my mind is to describe an issue faced by the =
current solution, and to indicate in the PS to remind people to avoid =
this issue when develop dmm unicast solution.=20
Anyway, nobody knows whether the dmm unicast solution architecture will =
lead to such issues (e.g. duplicate multicast traffic) when developing =
multicast solution based on it.=20
>> It=E2=80=99s time to wrap up this argument since I clearly answered =
in previous mail at 26 November. See them carefully, please. You should =
distinguish a =E2=80=9Csolution=E2=80=9D and a =E2=80=9Cstatus=E2=80=9D =
or =E2=80=9Csituation=E2=80=9D made by a solution.


How about  =20
PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic=20
IP multicast solution over architectures using IP mobility solutions =
(e.g. RFC6224) may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast =
subscriptions towards the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG =
in PMIPv6).  Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual =
mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels (e.g. PMIPv6 tunnel), =
duplicate multicast subscription(s) is prone to be received through =
different upstream paths. This problem may also exist in the distributed =
mobility management environment.=20


BR=20
Luowen=20





"Seil Jeon" <seiljeon@av.it.pt>=20

2012/12/05 18:00=20


=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA

<luo.wen@zte.com.cn>, "'h chan'" <h.anthony.chan@huawei.com>=20


=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81

<dmm@ietf.org>, 'S=C3=A9rgio Figueiredo' <sfigueiredo@av.it.pt>=20


=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98

RE: RE: [DMM]        =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: Re:  Multicast PS to =
requirements

=20

	=09




Hi Luo,=20
 =20
I=E2=80=99m happy to see we=E2=80=99re coming to agreement gradually. =
However, unfortunately, the draft is describing two former sentences =
with available use cases.=20
As you=E2=80=99re fully aware of this situation caused by duplicate =
multicast traffic, it=E2=80=99s more severe in DMM environment.=20
 =20
I hope we also get agreement soon.=20
 =20
Regards,=20
 =20
Seil=20
 =20
From: luo.wen@zte.com.cn [mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn]=20
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 1:23 AM
To: h chan
Cc: dmm@ietf.org; Seil Jeon; S=C3=A9rgio Figueiredo
Subject: =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: RE: [DMM] =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: Re: Multicast =
PS to requirements=20
 =20

Hi=20

To me, the part of PS6 which are based on the analysis of RFC6224 is =
fine, and my suggestion is to keep the first two sentences and remove =
the last one.=20

Luowen=20


h chan < <mailto:h.anthony.chan@huawei.com> h.anthony.chan@huawei.com>=20

2012/12/05 02:45=20

=20


=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA

Seil Jeon < <mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt> seiljeon@av.it.pt>, " =
<mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn> luo.wen@zte.com.cn" < =
<mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn> luo.wen@zte.com.cn>=20


=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81

" <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org" < <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> =
dmm@ietf.org>=20


=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98

RE: [DMM]        =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: Re:  Multicast PS to requirements


 =20

=20

	=09





Any changes/clarifications to PS6?=20
=20
PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic=20
IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility solutions =
may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast subscriptions towards =
the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).  =
Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual mobile nodes is =
coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast subscription(s) is =
prone to be received through different upstream paths. This problem is =
potentially more severe in a distributed mobility environment =
[draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].=20
=20
H Anthony Chan=20
=20
From:  <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> dmm-bounces@ietf.org [ =
<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
Seil Jeon
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 4:27 PM
To:  <mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn> luo.wen@zte.com.cn
Cc:  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: Re: Multicast PS to requirements=20
=20
Hi Luo,=20
=20
Additionally following the comment by Sergio,=20
=20
=20
From:  <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> dmm-bounces@ietf.org [ =
<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
Sergio Figueiredo
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 9:35 AM
To:  <mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn> luo.wen@zte.com.cn
Cc:  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: Re: Multicast PS to requirements=20
=20
Hi Luo,

Thanks for your comment. My answer is placed inline:

On 11/22/2012 08:02 AM, luo.wen@zte.com.cn wrote:=20

Hi S=C3=A9rgio=20

> PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic=20
> IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility =
solutions  may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast subscriptions =
towards the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).  =
>Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual mobile nodes is =
coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast subscription(s) is =
prone to be received through different upstream paths. This problem is =
potentially more severe in a distributed mobility environment =
[draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].=20

>[Luis>>] This seems not to be a problem of the IP mobility solutions =
handling multicast traffic with mobility tunnels in general, but a =
problem of considering several upstream paths ending on the same =
mobility access router as a consequence of extending tunnels from =
previousMAR to newMAR to forward the multicast traffic.=20

> [SF] Exactly. Which is more than likely to happen in a DMM solution, =
where all "mobility entities" may act as "mobility access routers", and, =
after mobility, we want to take advantage of the tunnel for the =
subscription. In those cases, care must be taken in order to not greatly =
magnify convergence problem observed e.g. in RFC6224.=20

[Luowen] According to the above discussion, I believe the PS6  is based =
on the usage scenarios discussed in =
draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03. But, it seems to me the =
usage scenarios in this draft is based on a assumed dmm unicast solution =
and architecture. IMHO, the PS should be based on current existing =
protocol (e.g. RFC) or current deployment, not a assumed solution.=20
SF: PS6 is observable is both existing protocols (e.g. RFC6224) and in =
the use cases we analyzed - in a PMIPv6-based DMM solution. So I assume =
the PS fits in the REQs document. As I said before, if ignored, the =
tunnel convergence problem might be a much serious problem than in =
RFC6224.

>> In the use case draft, there are any solutions not assumed. We =
presented use cases, having various deployments of existing multicast =
standard entities, and corresponding analysis based on distributed =
deployment specified in DMM REQ1.=20
No more, no less.=20
=20
Regards,=20
=20
Seil=20
 =20

 =20


S=C3=A9rgio Figueiredo  <mailto:sfigueiredo@av.it.pt> =
<sfigueiredo@av.it.pt>=20
=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:   <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> =
dmm-bounces@ietf.org=20

2012/11/21 07:21=20

 =20

=20


=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA

 <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org=20


=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81

=09

=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98

Re: [DMM] Multicast PS to requirements



 =20

 =20

=20

	=09




Hi Luis,

A few more comments on this inline:

Em 20-11-2012 19:46, LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO escreveu:=20
Hi Anthony,=20

some comments in line=20

Best regards,=20

Luis=20

De:  <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> dmm-bounces@ietf.org [ =
<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] En nombre de =
h chan
Enviado el: martes, 20 de noviembre de 2012 18:51
Para: S=C3=A9rgio Figueiredo;  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org
Asunto: [DMM] Multicast PS to requirements=20

Let us also use another thread to check for consensus of the PS from =
multimob.=20

PS1 (revised): Non-optimal routes=20
Routing via a centralized anchor often results in a longer route. The =
problem is especially manifested when accessing a local server or =
servers of a Content Delivery Network (CDN), or when receiving / sending =
IP multicast packets.=20
[Luis>>] This is correct if the multicast content is locally available. =
However this could not be always the case for multicast listeners, for a =
number of reasons (for instance, conflict in the multicast address =
allocation between the Home Network and the DMM domain).=20

[SF] Sure, and the same applies to "accessing a local server a CDN" - it =
is implicit that the content is locally available. But it can be =
improved as "when receiving locally available IP multicast or sending IP =
multicast".

PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic=20
IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility solutions =
 may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast subscriptions towards =
the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).  =
Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual mobile nodes is =
coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast subscription(s) is =
prone to be received through different upstream paths. This problem is =
potentially more severe in a distributed mobility environment =
[draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].=20

[Luis>>] This seems not to be a problem of the IP mobility solutions =
handling multicast traffic with mobility tunnels in general, but a =
problem of considering several upstream paths ending on the same =
mobility access router as a consequence of extending tunnels from =
previousMAR to newMAR to forward the multicast traffic.=20

[SF] Exactly. Which is more than likely to happen in a DMM solution, =
where all "mobility entities" may act as "mobility access routers", and, =
after mobility, we want to take advantage of the tunnel for the =
subscription. In those cases, care must be taken in order to not greatly =
magnify convergence problem observed e.g. in RFC6224.

Regards,
S=C3=A9rgio


H Anthony Chan=20

From:  <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> dmm-bounces@ietf.org [ =
<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
S=C3=A9rgio Figueiredo
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 5:24 PM
To:  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements=20

Hi Anthony,

Thank you for trying to progress on this matter. I mostly agree with =
your analysis.

As for the question you posed, first I would like to exactly understand =
what you mean with "multicast distribution scenario" in "DMM solutions =
should enable multicast services which are compatible with multicast =
distribution scenario, etc.". It seems like there is no major difference =
between this and the "DMM solutions should enable solutions to support =
multicast services." requirement? Aren't both expressing the need to =
enable multicast in a DMM solution?

As you stated, "neglecting" the requirement 7.1 we proposed, leads to =
the PSs you referred.  So, while 7.2 and 7.3 express the need for DMM =
solutions to allow deployment of multicast services, 7.1 concerns  "how" =
IP multicast should be enabled in order to avoid the aforementioned PSs. =
The usage of the word "flexible"is explained by:=20

"This flexibility enables different IP multicast flows with respect to a =
mobile host to be managed (e.g., subscribed, received and/or =
transmitted) using multiple endpoints".=20

In other words, compatibility with "multicast distribution scenario" =
doesn't necessarily avoid PS1 and PS6.

Thank you and best regards,
S=C3=A9rgio

On 11/19/2012 10:28 PM, h chan wrote:=20
There are 3 proposals for multicast requirements. Before comparing these =
proposals, let us understand what are the problems first. Two problem =
statements have been proposed:=20

PS1 (revised): Non-optimal routes=20
Routing via a centralized anchor often results in a longer route. The =
problem is especially manifested when accessing a local server or =
servers of a Content Delivery Network (CDN), or when receiving / sending =
IP multicast packets.=20
PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic=20
IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility solutions =
 may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast subscriptions towards =
the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).  =
Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual mobile nodes is =
coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast subscription(s) is =
prone to be received through different upstream paths. This problem is =
potentially more severe in a distributed mobility environment =
[draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].=20

Then, let us see whether all the 3 REQ proposals have the same =
intention. In the following, I rephrase them to highlight their =
similarities.=20

REQ7.1: Flexible multicast distribution=20
DMM solutions should be compatible with flexible multicast distribution =
scenario. Etc.=20
The Motivation is to allow flexibility in (enable) multicast solutions =
to solve the problems PS1 and PS6 as explained in use cases already =
presented and discussed in multimob wg.=20

REQ7.2:=20
DMM solutions should enable solutions to support multicast traffic.=20

(Original wording was "The DMM (unicast) solution MUST be specified in =
such a way that it can be extended to also support multicast traffic." I =
rephrase it to highlight the similarity with the other proposals and =
also changed the must to should.)=20

REQ7.3:=20
DMM solutions should enable solutions to support multicast services.=20

Original wording was =E2=80=9CDMM solutions should support multicast =
services =E2=80=A6 etc. Given that it is the scope of multimob and not =
dmm wg to provide the multicast solution, I think =
=E2=80=9Csupport=E2=80=9D here means =E2=80=9Cenable=E2=80=9D solutions =
to be developed (by multimob).=20

Similarity and subtle differences: Both REQ7.2 and REQ7.3 want to enable =
multicast services. Yet the explanation in REQ7.1 seems to indicate not =
just to enable any one multicast solution but also needs the flexibility =
in multicast solution. Not all multicast solutions are the same. Some of =
them results in PS1 or PS6.=20

Are there any are essential differences between:=20
In REQ7.1, DMM solutions should be compatible with flexible multicast =
distribution scenario, etc.=20
Versus=20
DMM solutions should enable multicast services which are compatible with =
multicast distribution scenario, etc.=20

H Anthony Chan=20

From:  <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> dmm-bounces@ietf.org [ =
<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
Seil Jeon
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 5:15 AM
To:  <mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com> pierrick.seite@orange.com
Cc:  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements=20

Hi Pierrick,=20

I=E2=80=99ve many times thought about your question. I would say how =
effectively should we deploy/support multicast over distributed mobility =
rather than distributed mobile multicast. As a result, you can find this =
deployment use case and gap analysis at  =
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03> =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03 =
presented in multimob several times.=20

In unicast DMM, main innovation is to distribute the anchor function at =
many access routers from single core. Following architectural concept of =
DMM, flexible multicast distribution is one of multicast requirement =
resulted from the draft described above.=20

REQ8: Flexible multicast distribution=20
"DMM solutions SHOULD be compatible with flexible multicast distribution =
scenarios. This flexibility enables different IP multicast flows with =
respect to a mobile host to be managed (e.g., subscribed, received =
and/or transmitted) using multiple endpoints".=20

Motivation: The motivation for this requirement is to enable flexibility =
in multicast distribution. The multicast solution may therefore avoid =
having multicast-capable access routers being restricted to manage all =
IP multicast traffic relative to a host via a single endpoint (e.g. =
regular or tunnel interface), which would lead to the problems described =
in PS1 and PS6.=20
PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic=20
IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility solutions =
 may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast subscriptions towards =
the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).  =
Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual mobile nodes is =
coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast subscription(s) is =
prone to be received through different upstream paths. This problem is =
potentially more severe in a distributed mobility environment =
[draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].



Regards,=20

Seil=20

From:  <mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com> pierrick.seite@orange.com [ =
<mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com> mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com]=20
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 8:55 AM
To: ' <mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl> karagian@cs.utwente.nl';  =
<mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt> seiljeon@av.it.pt;  =
<mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com> =
JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com
Cc:  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [DMM] Multicast requirements=20

Hi all,=20

I tend to agree with Georgious, however I still do not figure out what =
is the use-case for distributed mobile multicast (other than academic =
considerations)? Can someone give concrete example?=20

I haven=E2=80=99t real all messages from this thread. So, maybe I missed =
important points.=20

BR,=20
Pierrick=20

De :  <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> dmm-bounces@ietf.org [ =
<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de =
 <mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl> karagian@cs.utwente.nl
Envoy=C3=A9 : samedi 17 novembre 2012 13:01
=C3=80 :  <mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt> seiljeon@av.it.pt;  =
<mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com> =
JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com
Cc :  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements=20

Hi all,=20

I also agree that the DMM solution should somehow consider muticast =
deployment. However, I do not thnk that the DMM WG is the right WG to =
provide the multicast based DMM solution!=20

One alternative solution will be to have a multicast requirement that =
emphasizes the need of having extensibility hooks (possibilities) that =
can be used later on by the multimob WG to provide a=20
a multicast enabled DMM solution!=20


So a requirement that specifies something like the following could be =
used for this purpose:=20

"The DMM (unicast) solution MUST be specified in such a way that it can =
be extended to also support multicast traffic."=20


Best regards,=20
Georgios=20


 =20



 =20

  _____ =20




Van:  <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> dmm-bounces@ietf.org [ =
<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> dmm-bounces@ietf.org] namens Seil Jeon [ =
<mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt> seiljeon@av.it.pt]
Verzonden: vrijdag 16 november 2012 22:25
To: 'Zuniga, Juan Carlos'
Cc:  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org
Onderwerp: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements=20
Hi Juan,

I've been looked at changed flow of your proposed text but sorry now =
that my
comment is posted.
At first time, I couldn't make sure however, on hearing Stig's =
description,
it seems quite reasonable at the first step, not giving any restrictions =
but
leaving some-specific for the DMM solution it does not support =
multicast.

On the other hand, it remains at a basic stage for the DMM solution to
support multicast.
So I think additional requirements need to be made for the DMM solution,
accordingly. But of course, this should not also give any specific
limitation and restriction but should be made towards the direction not
limiting the benefits provided by distributed deployment.

I hope to get more comments on this.

Regards,

Seil


-----Original Message-----
From:  <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> dmm-bounces@ietf.org [ =
<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Zuniga, Juan Carlos
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 8:14 PM
To: Stig Venaas;  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stig Venaas [ <mailto:stig@venaas.com> mailto:stig@venaas.com]
> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 3:01 PM
> To: jouni korhonen
> Cc:  <mailto:sarikaya@ieee.org> sarikaya@ieee.org; Zuniga, Juan =
Carlos; Konstantinos Pentikousis;=20
> Peter McCann;  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements
>=20
> On 11/15/2012 3:17 AM, jouni korhonen wrote:
> >
> > On Nov 15, 2012, at 1:03 AM, Behcet Sarikaya wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> I think we are reading too much into multicast and unicast should
be
> >> designed in an integrated manner.
> >>
> >> The fact is that multicast is considered as an area of
> specialization,
> >> it requires knowledge of very different protocols than we are=20
> >> accustomed to in mobility.
> >
> > "Requirement: DMM solutions SHOULD support multicast services. If a
> specific DMM solution does not support multicast services, an=20
> explanation MUST be provided."
>=20
> This sounds good to me.
>=20
> The main thing I want to achieve is what was describes as motivation=20
> earlier in this thread. Multicast should at least be considered when=20
> looking into DMM solutions, and not just an afterthought once the=20
> solution is decided.
>=20
> Stig

[JCZ] I fully agree with this. That was the intention of the proposed =
text.

Regards,

Juan Carlos

>=20
> > To me that reads basically "do not break foundations for multicast
> unless you have a valid & documented reason for it".  If we look e.g.
> into RFC625 multicast wording that is there very briefly but gives a=20
> hint to a developer where to head to. That is the level I would expect =

> DMM documents should aim to.
> >
> > - Jouni
> >
> >
> >> Let dmm deal with its current charter that does not include a word
> of
> >> multicast and if everything goes well we can come back and discuss
> dmm
> >> multicast.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Behcet

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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Hi =
Luo,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>See the =
inline, please.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Regards,<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Seil<o:p></o:=
p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
luo.wen@zte.com.cn [mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn] <br><b>Sent:</b> =
Thursday, December 06, 2012 1:12 AM<br><b>To:</b> Seil =
Jeon<br><b>Cc:</b> dmm@ietf.org; 'h chan'; 'S=C3=A9rgio =
Figueiredo'<br><b>Subject:</b> </span><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC'>=E7=AD=94</span=
><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EC=83=88=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC","seri=
f"'>=E5=A4=8D</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>: RE: RE: =
[DMM] </span><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC'>=E7=AD=94</span=
><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EC=83=88=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC","seri=
f"'>=E5=A4=8D</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>: Re: =
Multicast PS to requirements<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei","sans-serif"'>Hi =
Seil,</span> <br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei","sans-serif"'>I =
see the situation caused by duplicate multicast traffic, that is the =
issue brought by RFC 6224, is that true? If it is true, then I think we =
have already got the use case. </span><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&gt;&gt; =
Sure. Don=E2=80=99t forget we=E2=80=99re discussing on the DMM. =
Importantly, this situation may also happen in DMM use cases as long as =
we use a tunnel scheme as key role of IP =
mobility.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft =
YaHei","sans-serif"'>What we should do in my mind is to describe an =
issue faced by the current solution, and to indicate in the PS to remind =
people to avoid this issue when develop dmm unicast solution. =
</span><br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft =
YaHei","sans-serif"'>Anyway, nobody knows whether the dmm unicast =
solution architecture will lead to such issues (e.g. duplicate multicast =
traffic) when developing multicast solution based on it.</span> =
<br><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&gt;&gt; =
It=E2=80=99s time to wrap up this argument since I clearly answered in =
previous mail at 26 November. See them carefully, please. You should =
distinguish a =E2=80=9Csolution=E2=80=9D and a =E2=80=9Cstatus=E2=80=9D =
or =E2=80=9Csituation=E2=80=9D made by a =
solution.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft =
YaHei","sans-serif"'>How about &nbsp;</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'>PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'><br>IP multicast </span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>solution </span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'>over architectures using IP mobility solutions (</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>e.g. =
RFC6224</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'>) may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast subscriptions =
towards the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6). =
&nbsp;Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual mobile =
nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels (</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>e.g. PMIPv6 =
tunnel</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'>), duplicate multicast subscription(s) is prone to be received =
through different upstream paths.</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> This problem may also =
exist in the distributed mobility management environment</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2020A=
0'>.</span> <br><br><br><span style=3D'font-family:"Microsoft =
YaHei","sans-serif"'>BR</span> <br><span style=3D'font-family:"Microsoft =
YaHei","sans-serif"'>Luowen</span> <br><br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></=
span></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 =
width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td width=3D"36%" valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:36.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&quot;Seil =
Jeon&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt">seiljeon@av.it.pt</a>&gt;</span></b><sp=
an style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> =
</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2012/12/05 =
18:00</span> <o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"63%" valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:63.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><table =
class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" =
style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt =
.75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright =
style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"=EB=B0=94=ED=83=95","serif"'>=E6=94=
=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn">luo.wen@zte.com.cn</a>&gt;, &quot;'h =
chan'&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:h.anthony.chan@huawei.com">h.anthony.chan@huawei.com</a>&g=
t;</span> <o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"=EB=B0=94=ED=83=95","serif"'>=E6=8A=
=84=E9=80=81</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a>&gt;, 'S=C3=A9rgio =
Figueiredo' &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:sfigueiredo@av.it.pt">sfigueiredo@av.it.pt</a>&gt;</span> =
<o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt =
.75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright =
style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"=EB=B0=94=ED=83=95","serif"'>=E4=B8=
=BB</span><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"=EC=83=88=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC","serif=
"'>=E9=A2=98</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>RE: RE: [DMM] =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</span><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"=EB=B0=94=ED=83=95","serif"'>=E7=AD=
=94</span><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"=EC=83=88=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC","serif=
"'>=E5=A4=8D</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>: Re: =
&nbsp;Multicast PS to =
requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable =
border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt =
.75pt .75pt .75pt'></td><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt =
.75pt .75pt'></td></tr></table></td></tr></table><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Hi =
Luo,</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span>=
 <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>I=E2=80=99m =
happy to see we=E2=80=99re coming to agreement gradually. However, =
unfortunately, the draft is describing two former sentences with =
available use cases.</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>As =
you=E2=80=99re fully aware of this situation caused by duplicate =
multicast traffic, it=E2=80=99s more severe in DMM environment.</span> =
<br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span>=
 <br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>I =
hope we also get agreement soon.</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span>=
 <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Regards,</spa=
n> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span>=
 <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Seil</span> =
<br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span>=
 <br><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
<a href=3D"mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn">luo.wen@zte.com.cn</a> [<a =
href=3D"mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn">mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn</a>] =
<b><br>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 05, 2012 1:23 AM<b><br>To:</b> h =
chan<b><br>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a>; =
Seil Jeon; S=C3=A9rgio Figueiredo<b><br>Subject:</b> </span><span =
lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=B0=94=ED=83=95","serif"'>=E7=AD=
=94</span><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EC=83=88=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC","seri=
f"'>=E5=A4=8D</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>: RE: [DMM] =
</span><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=B0=94=ED=83=95","serif"'>=E7=AD=
=94</span><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EC=83=88=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC","seri=
f"'>=E5=A4=8D</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>: Re: =
Multicast PS to requirements</span> <br>&nbsp; <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>Hi</span>=
 <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>To me, =
the part of PS6 which are based on the analysis of RFC6224 is fine, and =
my suggestion is to keep the first two sentences and remove the last =
one.</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>Luowen</s=
pan> <o:p></o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 =
cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td =
width=3D"34%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:34.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt =
.75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>h chan =
&lt;</span></b><a href=3D"mailto:h.anthony.chan@huawei.com"><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>h.anthony.chan=
@huawei.com</span></b></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&gt;</span></b=
><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> =
</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2012/12/05 =
02:45</span> <o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"65%" valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:65.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable =
border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td =
width=3D"8%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:8.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt =
.75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright =
style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"=EB=B0=94=ED=83=95","serif"'>=E6=94=
=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"91%" =
valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:91.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Seil Jeon =
&lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt"><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>seiljeon@av.it=
.pt</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&gt;, =
&quot;</span><a href=3D"mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn"><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>luo.wen@zte.co=
m.cn</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&quot; =
&lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn"><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>luo.wen@zte.co=
m.cn</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&gt;</span> =
<o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt =
.75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright =
style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"=EB=B0=94=ED=83=95","serif"'>=E6=8A=
=84=E9=80=81</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&quot;</span><=
a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org</=
span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&quot; =
&lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org</=
span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&gt;</span> =
<o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt =
.75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright =
style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"=EB=B0=94=ED=83=95","serif"'>=E4=B8=
=BB</span><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"=EC=83=88=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC","serif=
"'>=E9=A2=98</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>RE: [DMM] =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</span><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"=EB=B0=94=ED=83=95","serif"'>=E7=AD=
=94</span><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"=EC=83=88=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC","serif=
"'>=E5=A4=8D</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>: Re: =
&nbsp;Multicast PS to =
requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br>&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable =
border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td =
width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt =
.75pt .75pt'></td><td width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt =
.75pt'></td></tr></table></td></tr></table><p><br><br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'><br>Any changes/clarifications to PS6?</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'><br></span>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'><br>PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'><br>IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility =
solutions may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast subscriptions =
towards the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6). =
&nbsp;Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual mobile =
nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast =
subscription(s) is prone to be received through different upstream =
paths. This problem is potentially more severe in a distributed mobility =
environment [draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br></span>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>H Anthony Chan</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br></span>&nbsp;<b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>From:</s=
pan></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm-bounces@=
ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:dmm-b=
ounces@ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>Seil Jeon<b><br>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 22, 2012 4:27 =
PM<b><br>To:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>luo.wen@zte.=
com.cn</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Cc:</spa=
n></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org=
</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Subject:=
</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Re: [DMM] =
</span><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=B0=94=ED=83=95","serif"'>=E7=AD=
=94</span><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EC=83=88=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC","seri=
f"'>=E5=A4=8D</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>: Re: =
Multicast PS to requirements</span> <br>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>Hi =
Luo,</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br></span>&n=
bsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>Additiona=
lly following the comment by Sergio,</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br></span>&n=
bsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br></span>&n=
bsp;<b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>From:</s=
pan></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm-bounces@=
ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:dmm-b=
ounces@ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>Sergio Figueiredo<b><br>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 22, =
2012 9:35 AM<b><br>To:</b> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>luo.wen@zte.=
com.cn</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Cc:</spa=
n></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org=
</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Subject:=
</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Re: [DMM] =
</span><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EB=B0=94=ED=83=95","serif"'>=E7=AD=
=94</span><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EC=83=88=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC","seri=
f"'>=E5=A4=8D</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>: Re: =
Multicast PS to requirements</span> <br>&nbsp;<br>Hi Luo,<br><br>Thanks =
for your comment. My answer is placed inline:<br><br>On 11/22/2012 08:02 =
AM, <a href=3D"mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn">luo.wen@zte.com.cn</a> wrote: =
<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>Hi =
S=C3=A9rgio</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'><br><br>&gt; PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'><br>&gt; IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP =
mobility solutions &nbsp;may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast =
subscriptions towards the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG =
in PMIPv6). &nbsp;&gt;Concretely, when multicast subscription for =
individual mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate =
multicast subscription(s) is prone to be received through different =
upstream paths. This problem is potentially more severe in a distributed =
mobility environment =
[draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].</span> <br><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>&gt;[Luis&gt;&gt;] This seems not to be a problem of the IP =
mobility solutions handling multicast traffic with mobility tunnels in =
general, but a problem of considering several upstream paths ending on =
the same mobility access router as a consequence of extending tunnels =
from previousMAR to newMAR to forward the multicast =
traffic.</span></i></b> <o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; [SF] Exactly. Which is more than likely =
to happen in a DMM solution, where all &quot;mobility entities&quot; may =
act as &quot;mobility access routers&quot;, and, after mobility, we want =
to take advantage of the tunnel for the subscription. In those cases, =
care must be taken in order to not greatly magnify convergence problem =
observed e.g. in RFC6224.</span> <o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>[Luowen] According to the above discussion, I =
believe the PS6 &nbsp;is based on the usage scenarios discussed in =
</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'>draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>. But, it =
seems to me the </span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>usage scenarios =
in this draft is based on a assumed dmm unicast solution and =
architecture. IMHO, the PS should be based on current existing protocol =
(e.g. RFC) or current deployment, not a assumed solution.</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><br>SF: PS6 is observable is both existing =
protocols (e.g. RFC6224) and in the use cases we analyzed - in a =
PMIPv6-based DMM solution. So I assume the PS fits in the REQs document. =
As I said before, if ignored, the tunnel convergence problem might be a =
much serious problem than in RFC6224.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>&gt;&=
gt; In the use case draft, there are any solutions not assumed. We =
presented use cases, having various deployments of existing multicast =
standard entities, and corresponding analysis based on distributed =
deployment specified in DMM REQ1.</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>No more, =
no less.</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br></span>&n=
bsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>Regards,<=
/span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br></span>&n=
bsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>Seil</spa=
n> <br>&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p><p>&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p><table =
class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" =
style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>S=C3=A9rgio =
Figueiredo </span></b><a href=3D"mailto:sfigueiredo@av.it.pt"><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&lt;sfigueired=
o@av.it.pt&gt;</span></b></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'><br></span><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"=EC=83=88=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC","serif=
"'>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>: =
&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>dmm-bounces@ie=
tf.org</span></a> <o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2012/11/21 =
07:21</span> <o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"49%" valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:49.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><table =
class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" =
style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td width=3D"14%" valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:14.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span =
lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"=EB=B0=94=ED=83=95","serif"'>=E6=94=
=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"85%" =
valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:85.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org</=
span></a> <o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"=EB=B0=94=ED=83=95","serif"'>=E6=8A=
=84=E9=80=81</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"=EB=B0=94=ED=83=95","serif"'>=E4=B8=
=BB</span><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"=EC=83=88=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC","serif=
"'>=E9=A2=98</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Re: [DMM] =
Multicast PS to =
requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p><br><br>&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></p><p>&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><table =
class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" =
style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'></td><td =
width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt =
.75pt .75pt'></td></tr></table></td></tr></table><p><br><br><br>Hi =
Luis,<br><br>A few more comments on this inline:<br><br>Em 20-11-2012 =
19:46, LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO escreveu: <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>Hi Anthony, </span><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>some comments in line </span><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>Best regards,</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>Luis</span> <br><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>De:</spa=
n></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm-bounces@=
ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:dmm-b=
ounces@ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] <b>En =
nombre de </b>h chan<b><br>Enviado el:</b> martes, 20 de noviembre de =
2012 18:51<b><br>Para:</b> S=C3=A9rgio Figueiredo; </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org=
</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Asunto:<=
/span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [DMM] =
Multicast PS to requirements</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>Let us also use another thread to check for consensus of the PS =
from multimob. </span><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>PS1 (revised): Non-optimal routes</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'><br>Routing via a centralized anchor often results in a longer route. =
The problem is especially manifested when accessing a local server or =
servers of a Content Delivery Network (CDN), <b>or when receiving / =
sending IP multicast packets</b>. </span><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>[Luis&gt;&gt;] This is correct if the multicast content is =
locally available. However this could not be always the case for =
multicast listeners, for a number of reasons (for instance, conflict in =
the multicast address allocation between the Home Network and the DMM =
domain). </span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p>[SF] Sure, and the same =
applies to &quot;accessing a local server a CDN&quot; - it is implicit =
that the content is locally available. But it can be improved as =
&quot;when receiving locally available IP multicast or sending IP =
multicast&quot;.<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'><br><br>PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'><br>IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility =
solutions &nbsp;may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast =
subscriptions towards the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG =
in PMIPv6). &nbsp;Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual =
mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast =
subscription(s) is prone to be received through different upstream =
paths. This problem is potentially more severe in a distributed mobility =
environment [draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].</span> =
<br><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>[Luis&gt;&gt;] This seems not to be a problem of the IP mobility =
solutions handling multicast traffic with mobility tunnels in general, =
but a problem of considering several upstream paths ending on the same =
mobility access router as a consequence of extending tunnels from =
previousMAR to newMAR to forward the multicast traffic.</span></i></b> =
<o:p></o:p></p><p>[SF] Exactly. Which is more than likely to happen in a =
DMM solution, where all &quot;mobility entities&quot; may act as =
&quot;mobility access routers&quot;, and, after mobility, we want to =
take advantage of the tunnel for the subscription. In those cases, care =
must be taken in order to not greatly magnify convergence problem =
observed e.g. in RFC6224.<br><br>Regards,<br>S=C3=A9rgio<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br></span><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>H Anthony Chan</span> <br><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>From:</s=
pan></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm-bounces@=
ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:dmm-b=
ounces@ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>S=C3=A9rgio Figueiredo<b><br>Sent:</b> Monday, November =
19, 2012 5:24 PM<b><br>To:</b> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org=
</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Subject:=
</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Re: [DMM] =
Multicast requirements</span> <br><br>Hi Anthony,<br><br>Thank you for =
trying to progress on this matter. I mostly agree with your =
analysis.<br><br>As for the question you posed, first I would like to =
exactly understand what you mean with &quot;multicast distribution =
scenario&quot; in &quot;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>DMM solutions should enable multicast services which are compatible =
with multicast distribution scenario, etc.</span>&quot;. It seems like =
there is no major difference between this and the &quot;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>DMM solutions should enable solutions to support multicast =
services.</span>&quot; requirement? Aren't both expressing the need to =
enable multicast in a DMM solution?<br><br>As you stated, =
&quot;neglecting&quot; the requirement 7.1 we proposed, leads to the PSs =
you referred. &nbsp;So, while 7.2 and 7.3 express the need for DMM =
solutions to allow deployment of multicast services, 7.1 concerns =
&nbsp;&quot;how&quot; IP multicast should be enabled in order to avoid =
the aforementioned PSs. The usage of the word &quot;flexible&quot;is =
explained by: <br><br>&quot;This flexibility enables different IP =
multicast flows with respect to a mobile host to be managed (e.g., =
subscribed, received and/or transmitted) using multiple endpoints&quot;. =
<br><br>In other words, compatibility with &quot;multicast distribution =
scenario&quot; doesn't necessarily avoid PS1 and PS6.<br><br>Thank you =
and best regards,<br>S=C3=A9rgio<br><br>On 11/19/2012 10:28 PM, h chan =
wrote: <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>There are 3 proposals for multicast requirements. Before =
comparing these proposals, let us understand what are the problems =
first. Two problem statements have been proposed:</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>PS1 (revised): Non-optimal routes</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'><br>Routing via a centralized anchor often results in a longer route. =
The problem is especially manifested when accessing a local server or =
servers of a Content Delivery Network (CDN), <b>or when receiving / =
sending IP multicast packets</b>. <br>PS6: Duplicate multicast =
traffic</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'><br>IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility =
solutions &nbsp;may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast =
subscriptions towards the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG =
in PMIPv6). &nbsp;Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual =
mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast =
subscription(s) is prone to be received through different upstream =
paths. This problem is potentially more severe in a distributed mobility =
environment [draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].</span> =
<br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>Then, let us see whether all the 3 REQ proposals have the same =
intention. In the following, I rephrase them to highlight their =
similarities.</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>REQ7.1: Flexible multicast distribution</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>DMM solutions should be compatible with flexible multicast =
distribution scenario. Etc. <br>The Motivation is to allow flexibility =
in (enable) multicast solutions to solve the problems PS1 and PS6 as =
explained in use cases already presented and discussed in multimob =
wg.</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>REQ7.2: <br>DMM solutions should enable solutions to support =
multicast traffic. </span><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>(Original wording was &quot;The DMM (unicast) solution MUST be =
specified in such a way that it can be extended to also support =
multicast traffic.&quot; I rephrase it to highlight the similarity with =
the other proposals and also changed the must to should.)</span> =
<br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>REQ7.3:</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>DMM solutions should enable solutions to support multicast =
services.</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>Original wording was =E2=80=9CDMM solutions should support =
multicast services =E2=80=A6 etc. Given that it is the scope of multimob =
and not dmm wg to provide the multicast solution, I think =
=E2=80=9Csupport=E2=80=9D here means =E2=80=9Cenable=E2=80=9D solutions =
to be developed (by multimob).</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>Similarity and subtle differences: Both REQ7.2 and REQ7.3 want to =
enable multicast services. Yet the explanation in REQ7.1 seems to =
indicate not just to enable any one multicast solution but also needs =
the flexibility in multicast solution. Not all multicast solutions are =
the same. Some of them results in PS1 or PS6. </span><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>Are there any are essential differences between:</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>In REQ7.1, DMM solutions should be compatible with flexible =
multicast distribution scenario, etc. <br>Versus</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>DMM solutions should enable multicast services which are =
compatible with multicast distribution scenario, etc.</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>H Anthony Chan</span> <br><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>From:</s=
pan></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm-bounces@=
ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:dmm-b=
ounces@ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>Seil Jeon<b><br>Sent:</b> Monday, November 19, 2012 5:15 =
AM<b><br>To:</b> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>pierrick.sei=
te@orange.com</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Cc:</spa=
n></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org=
</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Subject:=
</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Re: [DMM] =
Multicast requirements</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>Hi =
Pierrick,</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>I=E2=80=99=
ve many times thought about your question. I would say how effectively =
should we deploy/support multicast over distributed mobility rather than =
distributed mobile multicast. As a result, you can find this deployment =
use case and gap analysis at </span><a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dm=
m-03"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>http://tools.=
ietf.org/html/draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> presented =
in multimob several times.</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>In =
unicast DMM, main innovation is to distribute the anchor function at =
many access routers from single core. Following architectural concept of =
DMM, flexible multicast distribution is one of multicast requirement =
resulted from the draft described above. </span><br><br>REQ8: Flexible =
multicast distribution <br>&quot;DMM solutions SHOULD be compatible with =
flexible multicast distribution scenarios. This flexibility enables =
different IP multicast flows with respect to a mobile host to be managed =
(e.g., subscribed, received and/or transmitted) using multiple =
endpoints&quot;. <br><br>Motivation: The motivation for this requirement =
is to enable flexibility in multicast distribution. The multicast =
solution may therefore avoid having multicast-capable access routers =
being restricted to manage all IP multicast traffic relative to a host =
via a single endpoint (e.g. regular or tunnel interface), which would =
lead to the problems described in PS1 and PS6. <br>PS6: Duplicate =
multicast traffic <br>IP multicast distribution over architectures using =
IP mobility solutions &nbsp;may lead to convergence of duplicated =
multicast subscriptions towards the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity =
(e.g. MAG in PMIPv6). &nbsp;Concretely, when multicast subscription for =
individual mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate =
multicast subscription(s) is prone to be received through different =
upstream paths. This problem is potentially more severe in a distributed =
mobility environment =
[draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].<br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>Regar=
ds,</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>Seil</spa=
n> <br><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>From:</s=
pan></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>pierrick.sei=
te@orange.com</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:pierr=
ick.seite@orange.com</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] =
<b><br>Sent:</b> Monday, November 19, 2012 8:55 AM<b><br>To:</b> =
'</span><a href=3D"mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>karagian@cs.=
utwente.nl</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>'; =
</span><a href=3D"mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>seiljeon@av.=
it.pt</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>; </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>JuanCarlos.Z=
uniga@InterDigital.com</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Cc:</spa=
n></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org=
</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Subject:=
</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> RE: [DMM] =
Multicast requirements</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>Hi all,</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>I tend to agree with Georgious, however I still do not figure out =
what is the use-case for distributed mobile multicast (other than =
academic considerations)? Can someone give concrete example? =
</span><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>I haven=E2=80=99t real all messages from this thread. So, maybe I =
missed important points.</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>BR,</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>Pierrick</span> <br><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>De =
:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm-bounces@=
ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:dmm-b=
ounces@ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] <b>De la =
part de</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>karagian@cs.=
utwente.nl</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Envoy=C3=
=A9 :</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> samedi 17 =
novembre 2012 13:01<b><br>=C3=80 :</b> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>seiljeon@av.=
it.pt</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>; </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>JuanCarlos.Z=
uniga@InterDigital.com</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Cc =
:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org=
</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Objet =
:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Re: [DMM] =
Multicast requirements</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Hi =
all,</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>I also =
agree that the DMM solution should somehow consider muticast deployment. =
However, I do not thnk that the DMM WG is the right WG to provide the =
multicast based DMM solution!</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>One =
alternative solution will be to have a multicast requirement that =
emphasizes the need of having extensibility hooks (possibilities) that =
can be used later on by the multimob WG to provide a <br>a multicast =
enabled DMM solution!</span> <br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>So a =
requirement that specifies something like the following could be used =
for this purpose:</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>&quot;Th=
e DMM (unicast) solution MUST be specified in such a way that it can be =
extended to also support multicast traffic.&quot;</span> <br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Best =
regards,</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Georgios=
</span> <br><br><br>&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><br><br>&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></p><div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'text-align:center'><hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" =
align=3Dcenter></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><br><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br><br>Van:=
</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm-bounces@=
ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm-bounces@=
ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] namens =
Seil Jeon [</span><a href=3D"mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>seiljeon@av.=
it.pt</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>]<b><br>Verz=
onden:</b> vrijdag 16 november 2012 22:25<b><br>To:</b> 'Zuniga, Juan =
Carlos'<b><br>Cc:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org=
</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Onderwer=
p:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Re: [DMM] =
Multicast requirements</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Hi =
Juan,<br><br>I've been looked at changed flow of your proposed text but =
sorry now that my<br>comment is posted.<br>At first time, I couldn't =
make sure however, on hearing Stig's description,<br>it seems quite =
reasonable at the first step, not giving any restrictions but<br>leaving =
some-specific for the DMM solution it does not support =
multicast.<br><br>On the other hand, it remains at a basic stage for the =
DMM solution to<br>support multicast.<br>So I think additional =
requirements need to be made for the DMM solution,<br>accordingly. But =
of course, this should not also give any specific<br>limitation and =
restriction but should be made towards the direction not<br>limiting the =
benefits provided by distributed deployment.<br><br>I hope to get more =
comments on this.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Seil<br><br><br>-----Original =
Message-----<br>From: </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm-bounces@=
ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:dmm-b=
ounces@ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] On Behalf =
Of<br>Zuniga, Juan Carlos<br>Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 8:14 =
PM<br>To: Stig Venaas; </span><a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org=
</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Subject:=
 Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements<br><br><br>&gt; -----Original =
Message-----<br>&gt; From: Stig Venaas [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:stig@venaas.com" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:stig@=
venaas.com</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>]<br>&gt; =
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 3:01 PM<br>&gt; To: jouni =
korhonen<br>&gt; Cc: </span><a href=3D"mailto:sarikaya@ieee.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>sarikaya@iee=
e.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>; Zuniga, =
Juan Carlos; Konstantinos Pentikousis; <br>&gt; Peter McCann; </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org=
</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>&gt; =
Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements<br>&gt; <br>&gt; On 11/15/2012 =
3:17 AM, jouni korhonen wrote:<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; On Nov 15, =
2012, at 1:03 AM, Behcet Sarikaya wrote:<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; I think we are reading too much into multicast =
and unicast should<br>be<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; designed in an integrated =
manner.<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; The fact is that multicast is =
considered as an area of<br>&gt; specialization,<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; it =
requires knowledge of very different protocols than we are <br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt; accustomed to in mobility.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; =
&quot;Requirement: DMM solutions SHOULD support multicast services. If =
a<br>&gt; specific DMM solution does not support multicast services, an =
<br>&gt; explanation MUST be provided.&quot;<br>&gt; <br>&gt; This =
sounds good to me.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; The main thing I want to achieve is =
what was describes as motivation <br>&gt; earlier in this thread. =
Multicast should at least be considered when <br>&gt; looking into DMM =
solutions, and not just an afterthought once the <br>&gt; solution is =
decided.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Stig<br><br>[JCZ] I fully agree with this. =
That was the intention of the proposed text.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Juan =
Carlos<br><br>&gt; <br>&gt; &gt; To me that reads basically &quot;do not =
break foundations for multicast<br>&gt; unless you have a valid &amp; =
documented reason for it&quot;. &nbsp;If we look e.g.<br>&gt; into =
RFC625 multicast wording that is there very briefly but gives a <br>&gt; =
hint to a developer where to head to. That is the level I would expect =
<br>&gt; DMM documents should aim to.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; - =
Jouni<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Let dmm deal with its =
current charter that does not include a word<br>&gt; of<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; =
multicast and if everything goes well we can come back and =
discuss<br>&gt; dmm<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; multicast.<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt; Regards,<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; =
Behcet<br><br>_______________________________________________<br>dmm =
mailing list</span><u><span style=3D'color:blue'><br></span></u><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
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ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br><br>____=
___________________________________________<br>dmm mailing =
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From: liu dapeng <maxpassion@gmail.com>
To: dmm <dmm@ietf.org>
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Subject: [DMM] DMM best practice and gap analysis draft
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Hello all,

We submit a merged version of DMM best practice and gag analysis draft:
draft-liu-dmm-best-practices-gap-analysis-01<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-liu-dmm-best-practices-gap-analysis/>

Any comments are welcome and appreciated .

Thanks,
------
Best Regards,
Dapeng Liu

----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
Reply-to: internet-drafts@ietf.org
Subject: I-D Action: draft-liu-dmm-best-practices-gap-analysis-01.txt
X-C5I-RSN: 1/0/935/47427/50821

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
directories.


Title : Distributed Mobility Management: Current practices and gap analysis
Author(s) : Dapeng Liu
H Anthony Chan
Pierrick Seite
Filename : draft-liu-dmm-best-practices-gap-analysis-01.txt
Pages : 25
Date : 2012-12-08

Abstract:
This document discusses how to best deploy the current IP mobility
protocols in distributed mobility management (DMM) scenarios and
analyzes the gaps of such best current practices against the DMM
requirements. These best current practices are achieved by
redistributing the existing MIPv6 and PMIPv6 functions in the DMM
scenarios. The analyses is also applied to the real world deployment
of IP mobility in WiFi network and in cellular network.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-liu-dmm-best-practices-gap-analysis

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-liu-dmm-best-practices-gap-analysis-01

A diff from the previous version is available at:
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-liu-dmm-best-practices-gap-analysis-01


Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

_______________________________________________
I-D-Announce mailing list
I-D-Announce@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt

--e89a8fb1edaabeb0e504d0539ce7
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<div>Hello all,</div><div><br></div><div>We submit a merged version of DMM =
best practice and gag analysis draft:=A0<a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.=
org/doc/draft-liu-dmm-best-practices-gap-analysis/">draft-liu-dmm-best-prac=
tices-gap-analysis-01</a></div>
<div><br></div><div>Any comments are welcome and appreciated .<br></div><di=
v><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>------<br>Best Regards,<br>Dapeng Liu<br=
></div><div><br></div><div>------------------------------------------------=
----------------------</div>
From: <a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org<=
/a>=A0<br><div>To: <a href=3D"mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org">i-d-announce@ie=
tf.org</a> <br>Reply-to:=20
<a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a> <b=
r>Subject: I-D Action:=20
draft-liu-dmm-best-practices-gap-analysis-01.txt <br>X-C5I-RSN:=20
1/0/935/47427/50821 <br> <br>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-=
line=20
Internet-Drafts directories. <br> <br> <br>Title : Distributed Mobility=20
Management: Current practices and gap analysis <br>Author(s) : Dapeng Liu <=
br>H=20
Anthony Chan <br>Pierrick Seite <br>Filename :=20
draft-liu-dmm-best-practices-gap-analysis-01.txt <br>Pages : 25 <br>Date :=
=20
2012-12-08 <br> <br>Abstract: <br>This document discusses how to best deplo=
y the=20
current IP mobility <br>protocols in distributed mobility management (DMM)=
=20
scenarios and <br>analyzes the gaps of such best current practices against =
the=20
DMM <br>requirements. These best current practices are achieved=20
by <br>redistributing the existing MIPv6 and PMIPv6 functions in the=20
DMM <br>scenarios. The analyses is also applied to the real world=20
deployment <br>of IP mobility in WiFi network and in cellular=20
network. <br> <br> <br>The IETF datatracker status page for this draft=20
is: <br><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-liu-dmm-best-prac=
tices-gap-analysis">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-liu-dmm-best-pra=
ctices-gap-analysis</a> <br> <br>There&#39;s=20
also a htmlized version available=20
at: <br><a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-liu-dmm-best-practices-=
gap-analysis-01">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-liu-dmm-best-practices-ga=
p-analysis-01</a> <br> <br>A=20
diff from the previous version is available=20
at: <br><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-liu-dmm-best-pr=
actices-gap-analysis-01">http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-liu-dmm-b=
est-practices-gap-analysis-01</a> <br> <br> <br>Internet-Drafts=20
are also available by anonymous FTP=20
at: <br><a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/=
internet-drafts/</a> <br> <br>_____________________________________________=
__ <br>I-D-Announce=20
mailing=20
list <br><a href=3D"mailto:I-D-Announce@ietf.org">I-D-Announce@ietf.org</a>=
 <br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce">https:/=
/www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce</a> <br>Internet-Draft=20
directories: <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html">http://www.ietf.or=
g/shadow.html</a> <br>or=20
<a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ie=
tf/1shadow-sites.txt</a> <br></div><br><br>

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Hi Anthony,

=20

Some comments are posted on your suggestion. And following is our =
revised text.

=20

IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility solutions =
(e.g. RFC6224) may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast =
subscriptions towards the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG =
in PMIPv6).  Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual =
mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels (e.g. PMIPv6 tunnel), =
duplicate multicast subscription(s) is prone to be received through =
different upstream paths. This problem may also exist or be more severe =
in a distributed mobility environment.

=20

Regards,

=20

Seil

=20

From: h chan [mailto:h.anthony.chan@huawei.com]=20
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2012 1:46 AM
To: luo.wen@zte.com.cn; Seil Jeon
Cc: dmm@ietf.org; 'S=C3=A9rgio Figueiredo'
Subject: RE: RE: RE: RE: [DMM] =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: Re: Multicast PS to =
requirements

=20

I don=E2=80=99t see big difference in the wording of PS6.=20

The difference is to remove the reference to the =
draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03

Then, let me ask the question of whether there is plan to move the draft =
to a WG draft and eventually become an rfc?

If so, the reference is logically possible.=20

If not, the individual draft will expire and there will be no assurance =
that the multimob draft will be permanently available. Then the PS can =
simply state what can be concluded from the draft if we don=E2=80=99t =
explicitly reference to the draft.=20

=20

>> Within that sense, I can also consider to remove the reference. And =
actually, we don=E2=80=99t know the future of this draft as of now.

=20

The rest are minor. The second difference is giving examples. We can add =
if we don=E2=80=99t see objection.

=20

>> For me, I don=E2=80=99t see any objection on this.

=20

The third is to add IP multicast solution. Generally, it is better to =
avoid using the same word =E2=80=9Csolution=E2=80=9D twice in the same =
sentence. There seems to be no major difference in meaning without =
adding solution here, is there?

=20

>> =E2=80=9CDistribution=E2=80=9D you suggested is much preferred.

=20

H Anthony Chan

=20

From: luo.wen@zte.com.cn [mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn]=20
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2012 7:26 PM
To: Seil Jeon
Cc: dmm@ietf.org; h chan; 'S=C3=A9rgio Figueiredo'
Subject: =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: RE: RE: RE: [DMM] =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: Re: =
Multicast PS to requirements

=20


Hi Seil,=20

Sorry for the late reply due to the business trip.=20

What do you mean by a "solution" and a "status" or "situation" made by a =
solution (as you said in the last email) ?  Both based on a solution, =
right?  That is why I argue with you due to there should be no dmm =
solution in this stage. I truly believe that the PS6 may also exist in =
the distributed mobility management environment. But to me, your draft =
only consider certain possibility in dmm environment, not a compeleted =
one. Then I will not be convinced with the assertion based on such =
in-compeleted scenario analysis. Please read my proposed text below.=20
Anyway, I agree with you, it=E2=80=99s time to wrap up this argument, =
since I have already make myself so clear.=20

To Anthony: do you have any suggestion since you are in charge.=20

BR=20
Luowen=20




"Seil Jeon" <seiljeon@av.it.pt>=20

2012/12/07 01:45=20


=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA

<luo.wen@zte.com.cn>=20


=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81

<dmm@ietf.org>, "'h chan'" <h.anthony.chan@huawei.com>, 'S=C3=A9rgio =
Figueiredo' <sfigueiredo@av.it.pt>=20


=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98

RE: RE: RE: [DMM]        =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: Re:  Multicast PS to =
requirements

=20

	=09




Hi Luo,=20
 =20
See the inline, please.=20
 =20
Regards,=20
 =20
Seil=20
 =20
From: luo.wen@zte.com.cn [mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn]=20
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2012 1:12 AM
To: Seil Jeon
Cc: dmm@ietf.org; 'h chan'; 'S=C3=A9rgio Figueiredo'
Subject: =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: RE: RE: [DMM] =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: Re: =
Multicast PS to requirements=20
 =20

Hi Seil,=20

I see the situation caused by duplicate multicast traffic, that is the =
issue brought by RFC 6224, is that true? If it is true, then I think we =
have already got the use case.=20
>> Sure. Don=E2=80=99t forget we=E2=80=99re discussing on the DMM. =
Importantly, this situation may also happen in DMM use cases as long as =
we use a tunnel scheme as key role of IP mobility.=20
What we should do in my mind is to describe an issue faced by the =
current solution, and to indicate in the PS to remind people to avoid =
this issue when develop dmm unicast solution.=20
Anyway, nobody knows whether the dmm unicast solution architecture will =
lead to such issues (e.g. duplicate multicast traffic) when developing =
multicast solution based on it.=20
>> It=E2=80=99s time to wrap up this argument since I clearly answered =
in previous mail at 26 November. See them carefully, please. You should =
distinguish a =E2=80=9Csolution=E2=80=9D and a =E2=80=9Cstatus=E2=80=9D =
or =E2=80=9Csituation=E2=80=9D made by a solution.=20

How about  =20
PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic=20
IP multicast solution over architectures using IP mobility solutions =
(e.g. RFC6224) may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast =
subscriptions towards the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG =
in PMIPv6).  Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual =
mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels (e.g. PMIPv6 tunnel), =
duplicate multicast subscription(s) is prone to be received through =
different upstream paths. This problem may also exist in the distributed =
mobility management environment.=20


BR=20
Luowen=20


"Seil Jeon" < <mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt> seiljeon@av.it.pt>=20

2012/12/05 18:00=20

=20


=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA

< <mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn> luo.wen@zte.com.cn>, "'h chan'" < =
<mailto:h.anthony.chan@huawei.com> h.anthony.chan@huawei.com>=20


=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81

< <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org>, 'S=C3=A9rgio Figueiredo' < =
<mailto:sfigueiredo@av.it.pt> sfigueiredo@av.it.pt>=20


=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98

RE: RE: [DMM]        =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: Re:  Multicast PS to =
requirements


 =20

=20

	=09





Hi Luo,=20
=20
I=E2=80=99m happy to see we=E2=80=99re coming to agreement gradually. =
However, unfortunately, the draft is describing two former sentences =
with available use cases.=20
As you=E2=80=99re fully aware of this situation caused by duplicate =
multicast traffic, it=E2=80=99s more severe in DMM environment.=20
=20
I hope we also get agreement soon.=20
=20
Regards,=20
=20
Seil=20
=20
From:  <mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn> luo.wen@zte.com.cn [ =
<mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn> mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn]=20
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 1:23 AM
To: h chan
Cc:  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org; Seil Jeon; S=C3=A9rgio =
Figueiredo
Subject: =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: RE: [DMM] =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: Re: Multicast =
PS to requirements=20
=20

Hi=20

To me, the part of PS6 which are based on the analysis of RFC6224 is =
fine, and my suggestion is to keep the first two sentences and remove =
the last one.=20

Luowen=20


h chan < <mailto:h.anthony.chan@huawei.com> h.anthony.chan@huawei.com>=20

2012/12/05 02:45=20

 =20

=20


=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA

Seil Jeon < <mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt> seiljeon@av.it.pt>, " =
<mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn> luo.wen@zte.com.cn" < =
<mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn> luo.wen@zte.com.cn>=20


=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81

" <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org" < <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> =
dmm@ietf.org>=20


=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98

RE: [DMM]        =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: Re:  Multicast PS to requirements



 =20

 =20

=20

	=09





Any changes/clarifications to PS6?=20

PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic=20
IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility solutions =
may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast subscriptions towards =
the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).  =
Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual mobile nodes is =
coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast subscription(s) is =
prone to be received through different upstream paths. This problem is =
potentially more severe in a distributed mobility environment =
[draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].=20

H Anthony Chan=20

From:  <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> dmm-bounces@ietf.org [ =
<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
Seil Jeon
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 4:27 PM
To:  <mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn> luo.wen@zte.com.cn
Cc:  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: Re: Multicast PS to requirements=20

Hi Luo,=20

Additionally following the comment by Sergio,=20


From:  <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> dmm-bounces@ietf.org [ =
<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
Sergio Figueiredo
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 9:35 AM
To:  <mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn> luo.wen@zte.com.cn
Cc:  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: Re: Multicast PS to requirements=20

Hi Luo,

Thanks for your comment. My answer is placed inline:

On 11/22/2012 08:02 AM, luo.wen@zte.com.cn wrote:=20

Hi S=C3=A9rgio=20

> PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic=20
> IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility =
solutions  may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast subscriptions =
towards the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).  =
>Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual mobile nodes is =
coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast subscription(s) is =
prone to be received through different upstream paths. This problem is =
potentially more severe in a distributed mobility environment =
[draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].=20

>[Luis>>] This seems not to be a problem of the IP mobility solutions =
handling multicast traffic with mobility tunnels in general, but a =
problem of considering several upstream paths ending on the same =
mobility access router as a consequence of extending tunnels from =
previousMAR to newMAR to forward the multicast traffic.=20

> [SF] Exactly. Which is more than likely to happen in a DMM solution, =
where all "mobility entities" may act as "mobility access routers", and, =
after mobility, we want to take advantage of the tunnel for the =
subscription. In those cases, care must be taken in order to not greatly =
magnify convergence problem observed e.g. in RFC6224.=20

[Luowen] According to the above discussion, I believe the PS6  is based =
on the usage scenarios discussed in =
draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03. But, it seems to me the =
usage scenarios in this draft is based on a assumed dmm unicast solution =
and architecture. IMHO, the PS should be based on current existing =
protocol (e.g. RFC) or current deployment, not a assumed solution.=20
SF: PS6 is observable is both existing protocols (e.g. RFC6224) and in =
the use cases we analyzed - in a PMIPv6-based DMM solution. So I assume =
the PS fits in the REQs document. As I said before, if ignored, the =
tunnel convergence problem might be a much serious problem than in =
RFC6224.

>> In the use case draft, there are any solutions not assumed. We =
presented use cases, having various deployments of existing multicast =
standard entities, and corresponding analysis based on distributed =
deployment specified in DMM REQ1.=20
No more, no less.=20

Regards,=20

Seil=20
 =20

 =20


S=C3=A9rgio Figueiredo  <mailto:sfigueiredo@av.it.pt> =
<sfigueiredo@av.it.pt>=20
=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:   <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> =
dmm-bounces@ietf.org=20

2012/11/21 07:21=20

 =20

 =20

=20


=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA

 <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org=20


=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81

=09

=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98

Re: [DMM] Multicast PS to requirements



 =20

 =20

 =20

=20

	=09




Hi Luis,

A few more comments on this inline:

Em 20-11-2012 19:46, LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO escreveu:=20
Hi Anthony,=20

some comments in line=20

Best regards,=20

Luis=20

De:  <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> dmm-bounces@ietf.org [ =
<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] En nombre de =
h chan
Enviado el: martes, 20 de noviembre de 2012 18:51
Para: S=C3=A9rgio Figueiredo;  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org
Asunto: [DMM] Multicast PS to requirements=20

Let us also use another thread to check for consensus of the PS from =
multimob.=20

PS1 (revised): Non-optimal routes=20
Routing via a centralized anchor often results in a longer route. The =
problem is especially manifested when accessing a local server or =
servers of a Content Delivery Network (CDN), or when receiving / sending =
IP multicast packets.=20
[Luis>>] This is correct if the multicast content is locally available. =
However this could not be always the case for multicast listeners, for a =
number of reasons (for instance, conflict in the multicast address =
allocation between the Home Network and the DMM domain).=20

[SF] Sure, and the same applies to "accessing a local server a CDN" - it =
is implicit that the content is locally available. But it can be =
improved as "when receiving locally available IP multicast or sending IP =
multicast".

PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic=20
IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility solutions =
 may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast subscriptions towards =
the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).  =
Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual mobile nodes is =
coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast subscription(s) is =
prone to be received through different upstream paths. This problem is =
potentially more severe in a distributed mobility environment =
[draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].=20

[Luis>>] This seems not to be a problem of the IP mobility solutions =
handling multicast traffic with mobility tunnels in general, but a =
problem of considering several upstream paths ending on the same =
mobility access router as a consequence of extending tunnels from =
previousMAR to newMAR to forward the multicast traffic.=20

[SF] Exactly. Which is more than likely to happen in a DMM solution, =
where all "mobility entities" may act as "mobility access routers", and, =
after mobility, we want to take advantage of the tunnel for the =
subscription. In those cases, care must be taken in order to not greatly =
magnify convergence problem observed e.g. in RFC6224.

Regards,
S=C3=A9rgio


H Anthony Chan=20

From:  <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> dmm-bounces@ietf.org [ =
<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
S=C3=A9rgio Figueiredo
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 5:24 PM
To:  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements=20

Hi Anthony,

Thank you for trying to progress on this matter. I mostly agree with =
your analysis.

As for the question you posed, first I would like to exactly understand =
what you mean with "multicast distribution scenario" in "DMM solutions =
should enable multicast services which are compatible with multicast =
distribution scenario, etc.". It seems like there is no major difference =
between this and the "DMM solutions should enable solutions to support =
multicast services." requirement? Aren't both expressing the need to =
enable multicast in a DMM solution?

As you stated, "neglecting" the requirement 7.1 we proposed, leads to =
the PSs you referred.  So, while 7.2 and 7.3 express the need for DMM =
solutions to allow deployment of multicast services, 7.1 concerns  "how" =
IP multicast should be enabled in order to avoid the aforementioned PSs. =
The usage of the word "flexible"is explained by:=20

"This flexibility enables different IP multicast flows with respect to a =
mobile host to be managed (e.g., subscribed, received and/or =
transmitted) using multiple endpoints".=20

In other words, compatibility with "multicast distribution scenario" =
doesn't necessarily avoid PS1 and PS6.

Thank you and best regards,
S=C3=A9rgio

On 11/19/2012 10:28 PM, h chan wrote:=20
There are 3 proposals for multicast requirements. Before comparing these =
proposals, let us understand what are the problems first. Two problem =
statements have been proposed:=20

PS1 (revised): Non-optimal routes=20
Routing via a centralized anchor often results in a longer route. The =
problem is especially manifested when accessing a local server or =
servers of a Content Delivery Network (CDN), or when receiving / sending =
IP multicast packets.=20
PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic=20
IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility solutions =
 may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast subscriptions towards =
the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).  =
Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual mobile nodes is =
coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast subscription(s) is =
prone to be received through different upstream paths. This problem is =
potentially more severe in a distributed mobility environment =
[draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].=20

Then, let us see whether all the 3 REQ proposals have the same =
intention. In the following, I rephrase them to highlight their =
similarities.=20

REQ7.1: Flexible multicast distribution=20
DMM solutions should be compatible with flexible multicast distribution =
scenario. Etc.=20
The Motivation is to allow flexibility in (enable) multicast solutions =
to solve the problems PS1 and PS6 as explained in use cases already =
presented and discussed in multimob wg.=20

REQ7.2:=20
DMM solutions should enable solutions to support multicast traffic.=20

(Original wording was "The DMM (unicast) solution MUST be specified in =
such a way that it can be extended to also support multicast traffic." I =
rephrase it to highlight the similarity with the other proposals and =
also changed the must to should.)=20

REQ7.3:=20
DMM solutions should enable solutions to support multicast services.=20

Original wording was =E2=80=9CDMM solutions should support multicast =
services =E2=80=A6 etc. Given that it is the scope of multimob and not =
dmm wg to provide the multicast solution, I think =
=E2=80=9Csupport=E2=80=9D here means =E2=80=9Cenable=E2=80=9D solutions =
to be developed (by multimob).=20

Similarity and subtle differences: Both REQ7.2 and REQ7.3 want to enable =
multicast services. Yet the explanation in REQ7.1 seems to indicate not =
just to enable any one multicast solution but also needs the flexibility =
in multicast solution. Not all multicast solutions are the same. Some of =
them results in PS1 or PS6.=20

Are there any are essential differences between:=20
In REQ7.1, DMM solutions should be compatible with flexible multicast =
distribution scenario, etc.=20
Versus=20
DMM solutions should enable multicast services which are compatible with =
multicast distribution scenario, etc.=20

H Anthony Chan=20

From:  <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> dmm-bounces@ietf.org [ =
<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
Seil Jeon
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 5:15 AM
To:  <mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com> pierrick.seite@orange.com
Cc:  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements=20

Hi Pierrick,=20

I=E2=80=99ve many times thought about your question. I would say how =
effectively should we deploy/support multicast over distributed mobility =
rather than distributed mobile multicast. As a result, you can find this =
deployment use case and gap analysis at  =
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03> =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03 =
presented in multimob several times.=20

In unicast DMM, main innovation is to distribute the anchor function at =
many access routers from single core. Following architectural concept of =
DMM, flexible multicast distribution is one of multicast requirement =
resulted from the draft described above.=20

REQ8: Flexible multicast distribution=20
"DMM solutions SHOULD be compatible with flexible multicast distribution =
scenarios. This flexibility enables different IP multicast flows with =
respect to a mobile host to be managed (e.g., subscribed, received =
and/or transmitted) using multiple endpoints".=20

Motivation: The motivation for this requirement is to enable flexibility =
in multicast distribution. The multicast solution may therefore avoid =
having multicast-capable access routers being restricted to manage all =
IP multicast traffic relative to a host via a single endpoint (e.g. =
regular or tunnel interface), which would lead to the problems described =
in PS1 and PS6.=20
PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic=20
IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility solutions =
 may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast subscriptions towards =
the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6).  =
Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual mobile nodes is =
coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast subscription(s) is =
prone to be received through different upstream paths. This problem is =
potentially more severe in a distributed mobility environment =
[draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].



Regards,=20

Seil=20

From:  <mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com> pierrick.seite@orange.com [ =
<mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com> mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com]=20
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 8:55 AM
To: ' <mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl> karagian@cs.utwente.nl';  =
<mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt> seiljeon@av.it.pt;  =
<mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com> =
JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com
Cc:  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [DMM] Multicast requirements=20

Hi all,=20

I tend to agree with Georgious, however I still do not figure out what =
is the use-case for distributed mobile multicast (other than academic =
considerations)? Can someone give concrete example?=20

I haven=E2=80=99t real all messages from this thread. So, maybe I missed =
important points.=20

BR,=20
Pierrick=20

De :  <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> dmm-bounces@ietf.org [ =
<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de =
 <mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl> karagian@cs.utwente.nl
Envoy=C3=A9 : samedi 17 novembre 2012 13:01
=C3=80 :  <mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt> seiljeon@av.it.pt;  =
<mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com> =
JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com
Cc :  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements=20

Hi all,=20

I also agree that the DMM solution should somehow consider muticast =
deployment. However, I do not thnk that the DMM WG is the right WG to =
provide the multicast based DMM solution!=20

One alternative solution will be to have a multicast requirement that =
emphasizes the need of having extensibility hooks (possibilities) that =
can be used later on by the multimob WG to provide a=20
a multicast enabled DMM solution!=20


So a requirement that specifies something like the following could be =
used for this purpose:=20

"The DMM (unicast) solution MUST be specified in such a way that it can =
be extended to also support multicast traffic."=20


Best regards,=20
Georgios=20


 =20




 =20

  _____ =20





Van:  <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> dmm-bounces@ietf.org [ =
<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> dmm-bounces@ietf.org] namens Seil Jeon [ =
<mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt> seiljeon@av.it.pt]
Verzonden: vrijdag 16 november 2012 22:25
To: 'Zuniga, Juan Carlos'
Cc:  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org
Onderwerp: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements=20
Hi Juan,

I've been looked at changed flow of your proposed text but sorry now =
that my
comment is posted.
At first time, I couldn't make sure however, on hearing Stig's =
description,
it seems quite reasonable at the first step, not giving any restrictions =
but
leaving some-specific for the DMM solution it does not support =
multicast.

On the other hand, it remains at a basic stage for the DMM solution to
support multicast.
So I think additional requirements need to be made for the DMM solution,
accordingly. But of course, this should not also give any specific
limitation and restriction but should be made towards the direction not
limiting the benefits provided by distributed deployment.

I hope to get more comments on this.

Regards,

Seil


-----Original Message-----
From:  <mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> dmm-bounces@ietf.org [ =
<mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org> mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Zuniga, Juan Carlos
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 8:14 PM
To: Stig Venaas;  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stig Venaas [ <mailto:stig@venaas.com> mailto:stig@venaas.com]
> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 3:01 PM
> To: jouni korhonen
> Cc:  <mailto:sarikaya@ieee.org> sarikaya@ieee.org; Zuniga, Juan =
Carlos; Konstantinos Pentikousis;=20
> Peter McCann;  <mailto:dmm@ietf.org> dmm@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements
>=20
> On 11/15/2012 3:17 AM, jouni korhonen wrote:
> >
> > On Nov 15, 2012, at 1:03 AM, Behcet Sarikaya wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> I think we are reading too much into multicast and unicast should
be
> >> designed in an integrated manner.
> >>
> >> The fact is that multicast is considered as an area of
> specialization,
> >> it requires knowledge of very different protocols than we are=20
> >> accustomed to in mobility.
> >
> > "Requirement: DMM solutions SHOULD support multicast services. If a
> specific DMM solution does not support multicast services, an=20
> explanation MUST be provided."
>=20
> This sounds good to me.
>=20
> The main thing I want to achieve is what was describes as motivation=20
> earlier in this thread. Multicast should at least be considered when=20
> looking into DMM solutions, and not just an afterthought once the=20
> solution is decided.
>=20
> Stig

[JCZ] I fully agree with this. That was the intention of the proposed =
text.

Regards,

Juan Carlos

>=20
> > To me that reads basically "do not break foundations for multicast
> unless you have a valid & documented reason for it".  If we look e.g.
> into RFC625 multicast wording that is there very briefly but gives a=20
> hint to a developer where to head to. That is the level I would expect =

> DMM documents should aim to.
> >
> > - Jouni
> >
> >
> >> Let dmm deal with its current charter that does not include a word
> of
> >> multicast and if everything goes well we can come back and discuss
> dmm
> >> multicast.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Behcet

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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Hi =
Anthony,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Some =
comments are posted on your suggestion. And following is our revised =
text.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>IP multicast =
distribution over architectures using IP mobility solutions (e.g. =
RFC6224) may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast subscriptions =
towards the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG in =
PMIPv6).=C2=A0 Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual =
mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels (e.g. PMIPv6 tunnel), =
duplicate multicast subscription(s) is prone to be received through =
different upstream paths. This problem may also exist or be more severe =
in a distributed mobility environment.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></=
span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Regards,<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Seil<o:p></o:=
p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
h chan [mailto:h.anthony.chan@huawei.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, =
December 11, 2012 1:46 AM<br><b>To:</b> luo.wen@zte.com.cn; Seil =
Jeon<br><b>Cc:</b> dmm@ietf.org; 'S=C3=A9rgio =
Figueiredo'<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: RE: RE: RE: [DMM] </span><span =
lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC'>=E7=AD=94</span=
><span lang=3DKO =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=EC=83=88=EA=B5=B4=EB=A6=BC","seri=
f"'>=E5=A4=8D</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>: Re: =
Multicast PS to requirements<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I don=E2=80=99t see big difference in the wording of PS6. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>The difference is to remove the reference to the </span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'>draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Then, let me ask the question of whether there is plan to move the =
draft to a WG draft and eventually become an =
rfc?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>If so, the reference is logically possible. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>If not, the individual draft will expire and there will be no =
assurance that the multimob draft will be permanently available. Then =
the PS can simply state what can be concluded from the draft if we =
don=E2=80=99t explicitly reference to the draft. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&gt;&gt; =
Within that sense, I can also consider to remove the reference. And =
actually, we don=E2=80=99t know the future of this draft as of =
now.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>The rest are minor. The second difference is giving examples. We can =
add if we don=E2=80=99t see objection.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&gt;&gt; For =
me, I don=E2=80=99t see any objection on this.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>The third is to add IP multicast solution. Generally, it is better to =
avoid using the same word =E2=80=9Csolution=E2=80=9D twice in the same =
sentence. There seems to be no major difference in meaning without =
adding solution here, is there?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&gt;&gt; =
=E2=80=9CDistribution=E2=80=9D you suggested is much =
preferred.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p>=
</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>H Anthony Chan<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
<a href=3D"mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn">luo.wen@zte.com.cn</a> [<a =
href=3D"mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn">mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn</a>] =
<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 09, 2012 7:26 PM<br><b>To:</b> Seil =
Jeon<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a>; h =
chan; 'S=C3=A9rgio Figueiredo'<br><b>Subject:</b> </span><span =
lang=3DZH-CN style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft =
YaHei","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>=E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D</span>=
<span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>: RE: =
RE: RE: [DMM] </span><span lang=3DZH-CN =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft =
YaHei","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>=E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D</span>=
<span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>: Re: =
Multicast PS to requirements<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei","sans-serif"'>Hi =
Seil,</span> <br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft =
YaHei","sans-serif"'>Sorry for the late reply due to the business trip. =
</span><br><br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft =
YaHei","sans-serif"'>What do you mean by a &quot;solution&quot; and a =
&quot;status&quot; or &quot;situation&quot; made by a solution (as you =
said in the last email) ? &nbsp;Both based on a solution, right? =
&nbsp;That is why I argue with you due to there should be no dmm =
solution in this stage. I truly believe that the PS6 may also exist in =
the distributed mobility management environment. But to me, your draft =
only consider certain possibility in dmm environment, not a compeleted =
one. Then I will not be convinced with the assertion based on such =
in-compeleted scenario analysis. Please read my proposed text below. =
</span><br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft =
YaHei","sans-serif"'>Anyway, I agree with you, it<span =
lang=3DKO>=E2=80=99</span>s time to wrap up this argument, since I have =
already make myself so clear. </span><br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei","sans-serif"'>To =
Anthony: do you have any suggestion since you are in charge.</span> =
<br><br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft =
YaHei","sans-serif"'>BR</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft =
YaHei","sans-serif"'>Luowen</span> <br><br><o:p></o:p></p><table =
class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D3 cellpadding=3D0 =
width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td width=3D"36%" valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:36.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&quot;Seil =
Jeon&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt">seiljeon@av.it.pt</a>&gt;</span></b><sp=
an style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> =
</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2012/12/07 =
01:45</span> <o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"63%" valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:63.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><table =
class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D3 cellpadding=3D0 =
width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:SimSun;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>=E6=
=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn">luo.wen@zte.com.cn</a>&gt;</span> =
<o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt =
.75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright =
style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:SimSun;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>=E6=
=8A=84=E9=80=81</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;'h chan'&quot; =
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:h.anthony.chan@huawei.com">h.anthony.chan@huawei.com</a>&g=
t;, 'S=C3=A9rgio Figueiredo' &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:sfigueiredo@av.it.pt">sfigueiredo@av.it.pt</a>&gt;</span> =
<o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt =
.75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright =
style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:SimSun;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>=E4=
=B8=BB=E9=A2=98</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>RE: RE: RE: =
[DMM] &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</span><span lang=3DZH-CN =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:SimSun;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>=E7=
=AD=94=E5=A4=8D</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>: Re: =
&nbsp;Multicast PS to =
requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable =
border=3D0 cellspacing=3D3 cellpadding=3D0><tr><td valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'></td><td valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'></td></tr></table><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Hi =
Luo,</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span>=
 <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>See the =
inline, please.</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span>=
 <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Regards,</spa=
n> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span>=
 <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Seil</span> =
<br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span>=
 <br><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
<a href=3D"mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn">luo.wen@zte.com.cn</a> [<a =
href=3D"mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn">mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn</a>] =
<b><br>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 06, 2012 1:12 AM<b><br>To:</b> Seil =
Jeon<b><br>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org">dmm@ietf.org</a>; 'h =
chan'; 'S=C3=A9rgio Figueiredo'<b><br>Subject:</b> </span><span =
lang=3DZH-CN =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>=
=E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>: RE: RE: =
[DMM] </span><span lang=3DZH-CN =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>=
=E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>: Re: =
Multicast PS to requirements</span> <br>&nbsp; <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>Hi =
Seil,</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>I see =
the situation caused by duplicate multicast traffic, that is the issue =
brought by RFC 6224, is that true? If it is true, then I think we have =
already got the use case. <br>&gt;&gt; Sure. Don=E2=80=99t forget =
we=E2=80=99re discussing on the DMM. Importantly, this situation may =
also happen in DMM use cases as long as we use a tunnel scheme as key =
role of IP mobility.</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>What we =
should do in my mind is to describe an issue faced by the current =
solution, and to indicate in the PS to remind people to avoid this issue =
when develop dmm unicast solution. <br>Anyway, nobody knows whether the =
dmm unicast solution architecture will lead to such issues (e.g. =
duplicate multicast traffic) when developing multicast solution based on =
it.</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>&gt;&gt; =
It=E2=80=99s time to wrap up this argument since I clearly answered in =
previous mail at 26 November. See them carefully, please. You should =
distinguish a =E2=80=9Csolution=E2=80=9D and a =E2=80=9Cstatus=E2=80=9D =
or =E2=80=9Csituation=E2=80=9D made by a solution.</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>How =
about &nbsp;</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'><br>PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'><br>IP multicast </span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>solution </span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'>over architectures using IP mobility solutions (</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>e.g. =
RFC6224</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'>) may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast subscriptions =
towards the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6). =
&nbsp;Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual mobile =
nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels (</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>e.g. PMIPv6 =
tunnel</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'>), duplicate multicast subscription(s) is prone to be received =
through different upstream paths.</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> This problem may also =
exist in the distributed mobility management environment</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#2020A=
0'>.</span> <br><br><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>BR</span> <span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>Luowen</span> =
<o:p></o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D3 =
cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td =
width=3D"31%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:31.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt =
.75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&quot;Seil =
Jeon&quot; &lt;</span></b><a href=3D"mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt"><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>seiljeon@av.it=
.pt</span></b></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&gt;</span></b=
><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> =
</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2012/12/05 =
18:00</span> <o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"68%" valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:68.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable =
border=3D0 cellspacing=3D3 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" =
style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td width=3D"9%" valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:9.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span =
lang=3DZH-CN =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:SimSun;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>=E6=
=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"90%" =
valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:90.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&lt;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn"><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>luo.wen@zte.co=
m.cn</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&gt;, =
&quot;'h chan'&quot; &lt;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:h.anthony.chan@huawei.com"><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>h.anthony.chan=
@huawei.com</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&gt;</span> =
<o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt =
.75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright =
style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:SimSun;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>=E6=
=8A=84=E9=80=81</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&lt;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org</=
span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&gt;, =
'S=C3=A9rgio Figueiredo' &lt;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:sfigueiredo@av.it.pt"><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>sfigueiredo@av=
.it.pt</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&gt;</span> =
<o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt =
.75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright =
style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:SimSun;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>=E4=
=B8=BB=E9=A2=98</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>RE: RE: [DMM] =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</span><span lang=3DZH-CN =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:SimSun;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>=E7=
=AD=94=E5=A4=8D</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>: Re: =
&nbsp;Multicast PS to =
requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br>&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable =
border=3D0 cellspacing=3D3 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" =
style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'></td><td =
width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt =
.75pt .75pt'></td></tr></table><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p><br><br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>Hi =
Luo,</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br></span>&n=
bsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>I=E2=80=99=
m happy to see we=E2=80=99re coming to agreement gradually. However, =
unfortunately, the draft is describing two former sentences with =
available use cases.</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>As =
you=E2=80=99re fully aware of this situation caused by duplicate =
multicast traffic, it=E2=80=99s more severe in DMM environment.</span> =
<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br></span>&n=
bsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>I hope =
we also get agreement soon.</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br></span>&n=
bsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>Regards,<=
/span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br></span>&n=
bsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>Seil</spa=
n> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br></span>&n=
bsp;<b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>From:</s=
pan></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>luo.wen@zte.=
com.cn</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:luo.w=
en@zte.com.cn</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] =
<b><br>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 05, 2012 1:23 AM<b><br>To:</b> h =
chan<b><br>Cc:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org=
</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>; Seil =
Jeon; S=C3=A9rgio Figueiredo<b><br>Subject:</b> </span><span =
lang=3DZH-CN =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>=
=E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>: RE: [DMM] =
</span><span lang=3DZH-CN =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>=
=E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>: Re: =
Multicast PS to requirements</span> <br>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>Hi</s=
pan> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>To =
me, the part of PS6 which are based on the analysis of RFC6224 is fine, =
and my suggestion is to keep the first two sentences and remove the last =
one.</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>Luowe=
n</span> <o:p></o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 =
cellspacing=3D3 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" =
style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td width=3D"34%" valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:34.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>h chan =
&lt;</span></b><a href=3D"mailto:h.anthony.chan@huawei.com"><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>h.anthony.chan=
@huawei.com</span></b></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&gt;</span></b=
><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> =
</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2012/12/05 =
02:45</span> <o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"65%" valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:65.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><table =
class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D3 cellpadding=3D0 =
width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td width=3D"8%" valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:8.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span =
lang=3DZH-CN =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:SimSun;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>=E6=
=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"91%" =
valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:91.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Seil Jeon =
&lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt"><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>seiljeon@av.it=
.pt</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&gt;, =
&quot;</span><a href=3D"mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn"><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>luo.wen@zte.co=
m.cn</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&quot; =
&lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn"><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>luo.wen@zte.co=
m.cn</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&gt;</span> =
<o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt =
.75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright =
style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:SimSun;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>=E6=
=8A=84=E9=80=81</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&quot;</span><=
a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org</=
span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&quot; =
&lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org</=
span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&gt;</span> =
<o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt =
.75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright =
style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:SimSun;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>=E4=
=B8=BB=E9=A2=98</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>RE: [DMM] =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</span><span lang=3DZH-CN =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:SimSun;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>=E7=
=AD=94=E5=A4=8D</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>: Re: =
&nbsp;Multicast PS to =
requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p><br><br>&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></p><p>&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><table =
class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D3 cellpadding=3D0 =
width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'></td><td =
width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt =
.75pt .75pt'></td></tr></table><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p><br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'><br><br>Any changes/clarifications to PS6?</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'><br>PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'><br>IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility =
solutions may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast subscriptions =
towards the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG in PMIPv6). =
&nbsp;Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual mobile =
nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast =
subscription(s) is prone to be received through different upstream =
paths. This problem is potentially more severe in a distributed mobility =
environment [draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].</span> =
<br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>H Anthony Chan</span> <br><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>From:</s=
pan></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm-bounces@=
ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:dmm-b=
ounces@ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>Seil Jeon<b><br>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 22, 2012 4:27 =
PM<b><br>To:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>luo.wen@zte.=
com.cn</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Cc:</spa=
n></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org=
</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Subject:=
</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Re: [DMM] =
</span><span lang=3DZH-CN =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>=
=E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>: Re: =
Multicast PS to requirements</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>Hi =
Luo,</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>Additiona=
lly following the comment by Sergio,</span> <br><br><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>From:</s=
pan></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm-bounces@=
ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:dmm-b=
ounces@ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>Sergio Figueiredo<b><br>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 22, =
2012 9:35 AM<b><br>To:</b> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>luo.wen@zte.=
com.cn</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Cc:</spa=
n></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org=
</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Subject:=
</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Re: [DMM] =
</span><span lang=3DZH-CN =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>=
=E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>: Re: =
Multicast PS to requirements</span> <br><br>Hi Luo,<br><br>Thanks for =
your comment. My answer is placed inline:<br><br>On 11/22/2012 08:02 AM, =
<a href=3D"mailto:luo.wen@zte.com.cn">luo.wen@zte.com.cn</a> wrote: =
<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>Hi =
S=C3=A9rgio</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'><br><br>&gt; PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'><br>&gt; IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP =
mobility solutions &nbsp;may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast =
subscriptions towards the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG =
in PMIPv6). &nbsp;&gt;Concretely, when multicast subscription for =
individual mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate =
multicast subscription(s) is prone to be received through different =
upstream paths. This problem is potentially more severe in a distributed =
mobility environment =
[draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].</span> <b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br><br>&gt;[Luis&gt;&gt;] This seems not to be a problem of the IP =
mobility solutions handling multicast traffic with mobility tunnels in =
general, but a problem of considering several upstream paths ending on =
the same mobility access router as a consequence of extending tunnels =
from previousMAR to newMAR to forward the multicast =
traffic.</span></i></b> <o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; [SF] Exactly. Which is more than likely =
to happen in a DMM solution, where all &quot;mobility entities&quot; may =
act as &quot;mobility access routers&quot;, and, after mobility, we want =
to take advantage of the tunnel for the subscription. In those cases, =
care must be taken in order to not greatly magnify convergence problem =
observed e.g. in RFC6224.</span> <o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>[Luowen] According to the above discussion, I =
believe the PS6 &nbsp;is based on the usage scenarios discussed in =
</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'>draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>. But, it =
seems to me the </span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>usage scenarios =
in this draft is based on a assumed dmm unicast solution and =
architecture. IMHO, the PS should be based on current existing protocol =
(e.g. RFC) or current deployment, not a assumed solution.</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><br>SF: PS6 is observable is both existing =
protocols (e.g. RFC6224) and in the use cases we analyzed - in a =
PMIPv6-based DMM solution. So I assume the PS fits in the REQs document. =
As I said before, if ignored, the tunnel convergence problem might be a =
much serious problem than in RFC6224.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>&gt;&=
gt; In the use case draft, there are any solutions not assumed. We =
presented use cases, having various deployments of existing multicast =
standard entities, and corresponding analysis based on distributed =
deployment specified in DMM REQ1.</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>No more, =
no less.</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>Regards,<=
/span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>Seil</spa=
n> <br>&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p><p>&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p><table =
class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D3 cellpadding=3D0 =
width=3D"100%" style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>S=C3=A9rgio =
Figueiredo </span></b><a href=3D"mailto:sfigueiredo@av.it.pt"><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&lt;sfigueired=
o@av.it.pt&gt;</span></b></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt'><br></span><span lang=3DZH-CN =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:SimSun;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>=E5=
=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>: =
&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>dmm-bounces@ie=
tf.org</span></a> <o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2012/11/21 =
07:21</span> <o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"49%" valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:49.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p><p>&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable =
border=3D0 cellspacing=3D3 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" =
style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td width=3D"14%" valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:14.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span =
lang=3DZH-CN =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:SimSun;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>=E6=
=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D"85%" =
valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:85.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org</=
span></a> <o:p></o:p></p></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:SimSun;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>=E6=
=8A=84=E9=80=81</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'></td></tr><tr><td valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
align=3Dright style=3D'text-align:right'><span lang=3DZH-CN =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:SimSun;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>=E4=
=B8=BB=E9=A2=98</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Re: [DMM] =
Multicast PS to =
requirements</span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p><br><br>&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></p><p>&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p><p>&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable =
border=3D0 cellspacing=3D3 cellpadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" =
style=3D'width:100.0%'><tr><td width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'></td><td =
width=3D"50%" valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt =
.75pt .75pt'></td></tr></table><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p><br><br><br>Hi =
Luis,<br><br>A few more comments on this inline:<br><br>Em 20-11-2012 =
19:46, LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO escreveu: <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>Hi Anthony, <br><br>some comments in line <br><br>Best =
regards,</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br><br>Luis</span> <b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br><br>De:<=
/span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm-bounces@=
ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:dmm-b=
ounces@ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] <b>En =
nombre de </b>h chan<b><br>Enviado el:</b> martes, 20 de noviembre de =
2012 18:51<b><br>Para:</b> S=C3=A9rgio Figueiredo; </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org=
</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Asunto:<=
/span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [DMM] =
Multicast PS to requirements</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br><br>Let us also use another thread to check for consensus of the =
PS from multimob. <br><br>PS1 (revised): Non-optimal routes</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'><br>Routing via a centralized anchor often results in a longer route. =
The problem is especially manifested when accessing a local server or =
servers of a Content Delivery Network (CDN), <b>or when receiving / =
sending IP multicast packets</b>. </span><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>[Luis&gt;&gt;] This is correct if the multicast content is =
locally available. However this could not be always the case for =
multicast listeners, for a number of reasons (for instance, conflict in =
the multicast address allocation between the Home Network and the DMM =
domain). </span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p>[SF] Sure, and the same =
applies to &quot;accessing a local server a CDN&quot; - it is implicit =
that the content is locally available. But it can be improved as =
&quot;when receiving locally available IP multicast or sending IP =
multicast&quot;.<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'><br><br>PS6: Duplicate multicast traffic</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'><br>IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility =
solutions &nbsp;may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast =
subscriptions towards the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG =
in PMIPv6). &nbsp;Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual =
mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast =
subscription(s) is prone to be received through different upstream =
paths. This problem is potentially more severe in a distributed mobility =
environment [draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].</span> =
<b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br><br>[Luis&gt;&gt;] This seems not to be a problem of the IP =
mobility solutions handling multicast traffic with mobility tunnels in =
general, but a problem of considering several upstream paths ending on =
the same mobility access router as a consequence of extending tunnels =
from previousMAR to newMAR to forward the multicast =
traffic.</span></i></b> <o:p></o:p></p><p>[SF] Exactly. Which is more =
than likely to happen in a DMM solution, where all &quot;mobility =
entities&quot; may act as &quot;mobility access routers&quot;, and, =
after mobility, we want to take advantage of the tunnel for the =
subscription. In those cases, care must be taken in order to not greatly =
magnify convergence problem observed e.g. in =
RFC6224.<br><br>Regards,<br>S=C3=A9rgio<br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br><br>H Anthony Chan</span> <b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br><br>From=
:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm-bounces@=
ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:dmm-b=
ounces@ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>S=C3=A9rgio Figueiredo<b><br>Sent:</b> Monday, November =
19, 2012 5:24 PM<b><br>To:</b> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org=
</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Subject:=
</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Re: [DMM] =
Multicast requirements</span> <br><br>Hi Anthony,<br><br>Thank you for =
trying to progress on this matter. I mostly agree with your =
analysis.<br><br>As for the question you posed, first I would like to =
exactly understand what you mean with &quot;multicast distribution =
scenario&quot; in &quot;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>DMM solutions should enable multicast services which are compatible =
with multicast distribution scenario, etc.</span>&quot;. It seems like =
there is no major difference between this and the &quot;<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>DMM solutions should enable solutions to support multicast =
services.</span>&quot; requirement? Aren't both expressing the need to =
enable multicast in a DMM solution?<br><br>As you stated, =
&quot;neglecting&quot; the requirement 7.1 we proposed, leads to the PSs =
you referred. &nbsp;So, while 7.2 and 7.3 express the need for DMM =
solutions to allow deployment of multicast services, 7.1 concerns =
&nbsp;&quot;how&quot; IP multicast should be enabled in order to avoid =
the aforementioned PSs. The usage of the word &quot;flexible&quot;is =
explained by: <br><br>&quot;This flexibility enables different IP =
multicast flows with respect to a mobile host to be managed (e.g., =
subscribed, received and/or transmitted) using multiple endpoints&quot;. =
<br><br>In other words, compatibility with &quot;multicast distribution =
scenario&quot; doesn't necessarily avoid PS1 and PS6.<br><br>Thank you =
and best regards,<br>S=C3=A9rgio<br><br>On 11/19/2012 10:28 PM, h chan =
wrote: <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>There are 3 proposals for multicast requirements. Before =
comparing these proposals, let us understand what are the problems =
first. Two problem statements have been proposed:</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br><br>PS1 (revised): Non-optimal routes</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'><br>Routing via a centralized anchor often results in a longer route. =
The problem is especially manifested when accessing a local server or =
servers of a Content Delivery Network (CDN), <b>or when receiving / =
sending IP multicast packets</b>. <br>PS6: Duplicate multicast =
traffic</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#33339=
9'><br>IP multicast distribution over architectures using IP mobility =
solutions &nbsp;may lead to convergence of duplicated multicast =
subscriptions towards the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity (e.g. MAG =
in PMIPv6). &nbsp;Concretely, when multicast subscription for individual =
mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate multicast =
subscription(s) is prone to be received through different upstream =
paths. This problem is potentially more severe in a distributed mobility =
environment [draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br><br>Then, let us see whether all the 3 REQ proposals have the =
same intention. In the following, I rephrase them to highlight their =
similarities.</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br><br>REQ7.1: Flexible multicast distribution</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>DMM solutions should be compatible with flexible multicast =
distribution scenario. Etc. <br>The Motivation is to allow flexibility =
in (enable) multicast solutions to solve the problems PS1 and PS6 as =
explained in use cases already presented and discussed in multimob =
wg.</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br><br>REQ7.2: <br>DMM solutions should enable solutions to support =
multicast traffic. <br><br>(Original wording was &quot;The DMM (unicast) =
solution MUST be specified in such a way that it can be extended to also =
support multicast traffic.&quot; I rephrase it to highlight the =
similarity with the other proposals and also changed the must to =
should.)</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br><br>REQ7.3:</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>DMM solutions should enable solutions to support multicast =
services.</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br><br>Original wording was =E2=80=9CDMM solutions should support =
multicast services =E2=80=A6 etc. Given that it is the scope of multimob =
and not dmm wg to provide the multicast solution, I think =
=E2=80=9Csupport=E2=80=9D here means =E2=80=9Cenable=E2=80=9D solutions =
to be developed (by multimob).</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br><br>Similarity and subtle differences: Both REQ7.2 and REQ7.3 =
want to enable multicast services. Yet the explanation in REQ7.1 seems =
to indicate not just to enable any one multicast solution but also needs =
the flexibility in multicast solution. Not all multicast solutions are =
the same. Some of them results in PS1 or PS6. <br><br>Are there any are =
essential differences between:</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>In REQ7.1, DMM solutions should be compatible with flexible =
multicast distribution scenario, etc. <br>Versus</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>DMM solutions should enable multicast services which are =
compatible with multicast distribution scenario, etc.</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br><br>H Anthony Chan</span> <b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br><br>From=
:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm-bounces@=
ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:dmm-b=
ounces@ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>Seil Jeon<b><br>Sent:</b> Monday, November 19, 2012 5:15 =
AM<b><br>To:</b> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>pierrick.sei=
te@orange.com</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Cc:</spa=
n></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org=
</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Subject:=
</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Re: [DMM] =
Multicast requirements</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>Hi =
Pierrick,</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>I=E2=80=
=99ve many times thought about your question. I would say how =
effectively should we deploy/support multicast over distributed mobility =
rather than distributed mobile multicast. As a result, you can find this =
deployment use case and gap analysis at </span><a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dm=
m-03"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>http://tools.=
ietf.org/html/draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> presented =
in multimob several times.</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>In =
unicast DMM, main innovation is to distribute the anchor function at =
many access routers from single core. Following architectural concept of =
DMM, flexible multicast distribution is one of multicast requirement =
resulted from the draft described above. </span><br><br>REQ8: Flexible =
multicast distribution <br>&quot;DMM solutions SHOULD be compatible with =
flexible multicast distribution scenarios. This flexibility enables =
different IP multicast flows with respect to a mobile host to be managed =
(e.g., subscribed, received and/or transmitted) using multiple =
endpoints&quot;. <br><br>Motivation: The motivation for this requirement =
is to enable flexibility in multicast distribution. The multicast =
solution may therefore avoid having multicast-capable access routers =
being restricted to manage all IP multicast traffic relative to a host =
via a single endpoint (e.g. regular or tunnel interface), which would =
lead to the problems described in PS1 and PS6. <br>PS6: Duplicate =
multicast traffic <br>IP multicast distribution over architectures using =
IP mobility solutions &nbsp;may lead to convergence of duplicated =
multicast subscriptions towards the tunnel=E2=80=99s downstream entity =
(e.g. MAG in PMIPv6). &nbsp;Concretely, when multicast subscription for =
individual mobile nodes is coupled with mobility tunnels, duplicate =
multicast subscription(s) is prone to be received through different =
upstream paths. This problem is potentially more severe in a distributed =
mobility environment =
[draft-sfigueiredo-multimob-use-case-dmm-03].<br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br><br>R=
egards,</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br><br>Seil<=
/span> <b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br><br>From=
:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>pierrick.sei=
te@orange.com</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:pierrick.seite@orange.com"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:pierr=
ick.seite@orange.com</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] =
<b><br>Sent:</b> Monday, November 19, 2012 8:55 AM<b><br>To:</b> =
'</span><a href=3D"mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>karagian@cs.=
utwente.nl</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>'; =
</span><a href=3D"mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>seiljeon@av.=
it.pt</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>; </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>JuanCarlos.Z=
uniga@InterDigital.com</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Cc:</spa=
n></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org=
</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Subject:=
</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> RE: [DMM] =
Multicast requirements</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br><br>Hi all,</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br><br>I tend to agree with Georgious, however I still do not figure =
out what is the use-case for distributed mobile multicast (other than =
academic considerations)? Can someone give concrete example? <br><br>I =
haven=E2=80=99t real all messages from this thread. So, maybe I missed =
important points.</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br><br>BR,</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>Pierrick</span> <b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br><br>De =
:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm-bounces@=
ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:dmm-b=
ounces@ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] <b>De la =
part de</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>karagian@cs.=
utwente.nl</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Envoy=C3=
=A9 :</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> samedi 17 =
novembre 2012 13:01<b><br>=C3=80 :</b> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>seiljeon@av.=
it.pt</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>; </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>JuanCarlos.Z=
uniga@InterDigital.com</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Cc =
:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org=
</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Objet =
:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Re: [DMM] =
Multicast requirements</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br><br>Hi =
all,</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br><br>I =
also agree that the DMM solution should somehow consider muticast =
deployment. However, I do not thnk that the DMM WG is the right WG to =
provide the multicast based DMM solution!</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br><br>One =
alternative solution will be to have a multicast requirement that =
emphasizes the need of having extensibility hooks (possibilities) that =
can be used later on by the multimob WG to provide a <br>a multicast =
enabled DMM solution!</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br><br>So =
a requirement that specifies something like the following could be used =
for this purpose:</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br><br>&quo=
t;The DMM (unicast) solution MUST be specified in such a way that it can =
be extended to also support multicast traffic.&quot;</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br><br>Best=
 regards,</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Georgios=
</span> <br><br><br>&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><br><br><br>&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></p><div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'text-align:center'><hr size=3D3 width=3D"100%" =
align=3Dcenter></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><br><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br><br><br>=
Van:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm-bounces@=
ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm-bounces@=
ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] namens =
Seil Jeon [</span><a href=3D"mailto:seiljeon@av.it.pt"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>seiljeon@av.=
it.pt</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>]<b><br>Verz=
onden:</b> vrijdag 16 november 2012 22:25<b><br>To:</b> 'Zuniga, Juan =
Carlos'<b><br>Cc:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org=
</span></a><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Onderwer=
p:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Re: [DMM] =
Multicast requirements</span> <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Hi =
Juan,<br><br>I've been looked at changed flow of your proposed text but =
sorry now that my<br>comment is posted.<br>At first time, I couldn't =
make sure however, on hearing Stig's description,<br>it seems quite =
reasonable at the first step, not giving any restrictions but<br>leaving =
some-specific for the DMM solution it does not support =
multicast.<br><br>On the other hand, it remains at a basic stage for the =
DMM solution to<br>support multicast.<br>So I think additional =
requirements need to be made for the DMM solution,<br>accordingly. But =
of course, this should not also give any specific<br>limitation and =
restriction but should be made towards the direction not<br>limiting the =
benefits provided by distributed deployment.<br><br>I hope to get more =
comments on this.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Seil<br><br><br>-----Original =
Message-----<br>From: </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm-bounces@=
ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:dmm-b=
ounces@ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] On Behalf =
Of<br>Zuniga, Juan Carlos<br>Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 8:14 =
PM<br>To: Stig Venaas; </span><a href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org=
</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>Subject:=
 Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements<br><br><br>&gt; -----Original =
Message-----<br>&gt; From: Stig Venaas [</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:stig@venaas.com" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>mailto:stig@=
venaas.com</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>]<br>&gt; =
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 3:01 PM<br>&gt; To: jouni =
korhonen<br>&gt; Cc: </span><a href=3D"mailto:sarikaya@ieee.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>sarikaya@iee=
e.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>; Zuniga, =
Juan Carlos; Konstantinos Pentikousis; <br>&gt; Peter McCann; </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:dmm@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>dmm@ietf.org=
</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>&gt; =
Subject: Re: [DMM] Multicast requirements<br>&gt; <br>&gt; On 11/15/2012 =
3:17 AM, jouni korhonen wrote:<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; On Nov 15, =
2012, at 1:03 AM, Behcet Sarikaya wrote:<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; I think we are reading too much into multicast =
and unicast should<br>be<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; designed in an integrated =
manner.<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; The fact is that multicast is =
considered as an area of<br>&gt; specialization,<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; it =
requires knowledge of very different protocols than we are <br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt; accustomed to in mobility.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; =
&quot;Requirement: DMM solutions SHOULD support multicast services. If =
a<br>&gt; specific DMM solution does not support multicast services, an =
<br>&gt; explanation MUST be provided.&quot;<br>&gt; <br>&gt; This =
sounds good to me.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; The main thing I want to achieve is =
what was describes as motivation <br>&gt; earlier in this thread. =
Multicast should at least be considered when <br>&gt; looking into DMM =
solutions, and not just an afterthought once the <br>&gt; solution is =
decided.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Stig<br><br>[JCZ] I fully agree with this. =
That was the intention of the proposed text.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Juan =
Carlos<br><br>&gt; <br>&gt; &gt; To me that reads basically &quot;do not =
break foundations for multicast<br>&gt; unless you have a valid &amp; =
documented reason for it&quot;. &nbsp;If we look e.g.<br>&gt; into =
RFC625 multicast wording that is there very briefly but gives a <br>&gt; =
hint to a developer where to head to. That is the level I would expect =
<br>&gt; DMM documents should aim to.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; - =
Jouni<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Let dmm deal with its =
current charter that does not include a word<br>&gt; of<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; =
multicast and if everything goes well we can come back and =
discuss<br>&gt; dmm<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; multicast.<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; =
&gt;&gt; Regards,<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; =
Behcet<br><br>_______________________________________________<br>dmm =
mailing list</span><u><span style=3D'color:blue'><br></span></u><a =
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From jounikor@gmail.com  Wed Dec 19 12:25:06 2012
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From: Jouni Korhonen <jounikor@gmail.com>
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Cc: Julien Laganier <jlaganier@juniper.net>
Subject: [DMM] Call for WG Adoption of a "current practices and gap analysis" document
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Folks,

We are unfortunately slipping our milestone, our (chairs) apologies for =
that. The next step is to select a "current practices and gap analysis" =
document to serve as the basis for the future WG document. We consider =
two documents on this topic to choose from:

[1] draft-zuniga-dmm-gap-analysis-02
[2] draft-liu-dmm-best-practices-gap-analysis-01

and we as a WG need to decide which one is going to form the _basis_ for =
the WG document.

Please voice your preference either for [1] or for [2] on the mailing =
list. We would appreciate if you can also provide a one-liner =
justification for your selection. The chairs will determine if there is =
(rough) consensus from active WG participants to proceed with selecting =
one document against the other.=20

The call starts today 19th Dec 2012 and ends by 10th Jan 2013. We have a =
longer three week call now due the holiday season in between.

- Jouni & Julien=

From cjbc@it.uc3m.es  Wed Dec 19 16:05:14 2012
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From: Carlos =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jes=FAs?= Bernardos Cano <cjbc@it.uc3m.es>
To: Jouni Korhonen <jounikor@gmail.com>
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Cc: Julien Laganier <jlaganier@juniper.net>, dmm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] Call for WG Adoption of a "current practices and gap analysis" document
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Dear chairs,

We have been working on an update of draft-zuniga-dmm-gap-analysis,
addressing the comments received on the mailing list and during the last
meeting. Main changes from -02 are:

- New section on 3GPP mobility.
- New section on functional analysis.
- New section on combined solution analysis.
- Several fixes and clean-ups.

We'd like to ask the chairs to replace [1] below with the new revision
(draft-zuniga-dmm-gap-analysis-03), that we have just submitted.

Thanks!

Carlos

On Wed, 2012-12-19 at 22:25 +0200, Jouni Korhonen wrote:
> Folks,
> 
> We are unfortunately slipping our milestone, our (chairs) apologies for that. The next step is to select a "current practices and gap analysis" document to serve as the basis for the future WG document. We consider two documents on this topic to choose from:
> 
> [1] draft-zuniga-dmm-gap-analysis-02
> [2] draft-liu-dmm-best-practices-gap-analysis-01
> 
> and we as a WG need to decide which one is going to form the _basis_ for the WG document.
> 
> Please voice your preference either for [1] or for [2] on the mailing list. We would appreciate if you can also provide a one-liner justification for your selection. The chairs will determine if there is (rough) consensus from active WG participants to proceed with selecting one document against the other. 
> 
> The call starts today 19th Dec 2012 and ends by 10th Jan 2013. We have a longer three week call now due the holiday season in between.
> 
> - Jouni & Julien
> _______________________________________________
> dmm mailing list
> dmm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm



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From: Jouni Korhonen <jounikor@gmail.com>
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Cc: Julien Laganier <jlaganier@juniper.net>, Jouni Korhonen <jounikor@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [DMM] Call for WG Adoption of a "current practices and gap analysis" document
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On Dec 20, 2012, at 2:05 AM, Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano =
<cjbc@it.uc3m.es> wrote:

> Dear chairs,
>=20
> We have been working on an update of draft-zuniga-dmm-gap-analysis,
> addressing the comments received on the mailing list and during the =
last
> meeting. Main changes from -02 are:
>=20
> - New section on 3GPP mobility.
> - New section on functional analysis.
> - New section on combined solution analysis.
> - Several fixes and clean-ups.
>=20
> We'd like to ask the chairs to replace [1] below with the new revision
> (draft-zuniga-dmm-gap-analysis-03), that we have just submitted.


This is OK. Consider -03 as the document [1] for the adoption call.

- Jouni & Julien.




>=20
> Thanks!
>=20
> Carlos
>=20
> On Wed, 2012-12-19 at 22:25 +0200, Jouni Korhonen wrote:
>> Folks,
>>=20
>> We are unfortunately slipping our milestone, our (chairs) apologies =
for that. The next step is to select a "current practices and gap =
analysis" document to serve as the basis for the future WG document. We =
consider two documents on this topic to choose from:
>>=20
>> [1] draft-zuniga-dmm-gap-analysis-02
>> [2] draft-liu-dmm-best-practices-gap-analysis-01
>>=20
>> and we as a WG need to decide which one is going to form the _basis_ =
for the WG document.
>>=20
>> Please voice your preference either for [1] or for [2] on the mailing =
list. We would appreciate if you can also provide a one-liner =
justification for your selection. The chairs will determine if there is =
(rough) consensus from active WG participants to proceed with selecting =
one document against the other.=20
>>=20
>> The call starts today 19th Dec 2012 and ends by 10th Jan 2013. We =
have a longer three week call now due the holiday season in between.
>>=20
>> - Jouni & Julien
>> _______________________________________________
>> dmm mailing list
>> dmm@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> dmm mailing list
> dmm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm


From amuhanna@awardsolutions.com  Thu Dec 20 09:36:38 2012
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From: Ahmad Muhanna <amuhanna@awardsolutions.com>
To: Jouni Korhonen <jounikor@gmail.com>, "dmm@ietf.org" <dmm@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [DMM Requirements]  [WAS [DMM] Call for WG Adoption of a "current practices and gap	analysis" document
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Subject: Re: [DMM] [DMM Requirements] [WAS Call for WG Adoption of a "current practices and gap	analysis" document
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Hello Jouni and All,

I am trying to catch up with the DMM working group.=20
I must admit that I was NOT able to follow all the discussions but I felt b=
efore being able to address the current practice and gap analysis, I needed=
 to understand the proposed requirements.

So, I went ahead and read the Requirements draft one more time and I found =
a couple of things that are essential to be clarified in order to have a so=
lid ground for hopefully a solid proposals and solutions.

   REQ1:  Distributed deployment

          IP mobility, network access and routing solutions provided by
          DMM MUST enable distributed deployment for mobility management
          of IP sessions so that traffic does not need to traverse
          centrally deployed mobility anchors and thus can be routed in
          an optimal manner.

[Ahmad]
In order to understand this requirement or may be in order for this require=
ment to be clear and makes sense, I would like to understand what is meant =
by IP session(s) in this context? And may be its relationship to the mobile=
 node.


   REQ2:  Transparency to Upper Layers when needed

          DMM solutions MUST provide transparent mobility support above
          the IP layer when needed.  Such transparency is needed, for
          example, when, upon change of point of attachment to the
          Internet, an application flow cannot cope with a change in the
          IP address.  Otherwise, support for maintaining a stable home
          IP address or prefix during handovers may be declined.

[Ahmad]
This a simple requirement that is phrased in a way that makes it a little m=
ore complex than needed. However, my question here is: how this requirement=
 is related to the "IP session(s)" mentioned in the REQ1? I believe it is f=
undamentally important to understand the relationship in order to be able t=
o move forward.


In addition, I believe the remaining requirements sort of straight forward =
and clarification of the above two points is essential (at least to me)

Thanks for all the help!

Regards,
Ahmad

-----Original Message-----
From: dmm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jouni=
 Korhonen
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 2:25 PM
To: dmm@ietf.org
Cc: Julien Laganier
Subject: [DMM] Call for WG Adoption of a "current practices and gap analysi=
s" document

Folks,

We are unfortunately slipping our milestone, our (chairs) apologies for tha=
t. The next step is to select a "current practices and gap analysis" docume=
nt to serve as the basis for the future WG document. We consider two docume=
nts on this topic to choose from:

[1] draft-zuniga-dmm-gap-analysis-02
[2] draft-liu-dmm-best-practices-gap-analysis-01

and we as a WG need to decide which one is going to form the _basis_ for th=
e WG document.

Please voice your preference either for [1] or for [2] on the mailing list.=
 We would appreciate if you can also provide a one-liner justification for =
your selection. The chairs will determine if there is (rough) consensus fro=
m active WG participants to proceed with selecting one document against the=
 other.=20

The call starts today 19th Dec 2012 and ends by 10th Jan 2013. We have a lo=
nger three week call now due the holiday season in between.

- Jouni & Julien
_______________________________________________
dmm mailing list
dmm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm

From h.anthony.chan@huawei.com  Thu Dec 20 10:43:18 2012
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From: h chan <h.anthony.chan@huawei.com>
To: Ahmad Muhanna <amuhanna@awardsolutions.com>, Jouni Korhonen <jounikor@gmail.com>, "dmm@ietf.org" <dmm@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [DMM] [DMM Requirements] [WAS Call for WG Adoption of a "current practices and gap	analysis" document
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Cc: Julien Laganier <jlaganier@juniper.net>
Subject: Re: [DMM] [DMM Requirements] [WAS Call for WG Adoption of a "current practices and gap	analysis" document
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Ahmad,

The mobile nodes are running network applications (IP sessions).
Mobility can be thought of as being provided to the mobile nodes. Alternati=
vely it can be thought of as being provided to the applications. I think th=
e difference is shown in the following:

IP mobility support is not always needed by all network applications or at =
all times. Web-browser does not need it. A laptop often does not move durin=
g the life of an IP session.=20
So the flexibility to provide and not to provide mobility support is needed=
.=20

What REQ2 is trying to avoid is to provide mobility support to the mobile n=
odes such that it is provided by default to all the applications when the m=
obility support is provided to the mobile node.=20

So I would think of providing mobility support to the applications.

Please feel free to suggest text changes if the REQ are not clear.=20

H Anthony Chan

-----Original Message-----
From: dmm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ahmad=
 Muhanna
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 11:35 AM
To: Jouni Korhonen; dmm@ietf.org
Cc: Julien Laganier
Subject: Re: [DMM] [DMM Requirements] [WAS Call for WG Adoption of a "curre=
nt practices and gap analysis" document

Hello Jouni and All,

I am trying to catch up with the DMM working group.=20
I must admit that I was NOT able to follow all the discussions but I felt b=
efore being able to address the current practice and gap analysis, I needed=
 to understand the proposed requirements.

So, I went ahead and read the Requirements draft one more time and I found =
a couple of things that are essential to be clarified in order to have a so=
lid ground for hopefully a solid proposals and solutions.

   REQ1:  Distributed deployment

          IP mobility, network access and routing solutions provided by
          DMM MUST enable distributed deployment for mobility management
          of IP sessions so that traffic does not need to traverse
          centrally deployed mobility anchors and thus can be routed in
          an optimal manner.

[Ahmad]
In order to understand this requirement or may be in order for this require=
ment to be clear and makes sense, I would like to understand what is meant =
by IP session(s) in this context? And may be its relationship to the mobile=
 node.


   REQ2:  Transparency to Upper Layers when needed

          DMM solutions MUST provide transparent mobility support above
          the IP layer when needed.  Such transparency is needed, for
          example, when, upon change of point of attachment to the
          Internet, an application flow cannot cope with a change in the
          IP address.  Otherwise, support for maintaining a stable home
          IP address or prefix during handovers may be declined.

[Ahmad]
This a simple requirement that is phrased in a way that makes it a little m=
ore complex than needed. However, my question here is: how this requirement=
 is related to the "IP session(s)" mentioned in the REQ1? I believe it is f=
undamentally important to understand the relationship in order to be able t=
o move forward.


In addition, I believe the remaining requirements sort of straight forward =
and clarification of the above two points is essential (at least to me)

Thanks for all the help!

Regards,
Ahmad

-----Original Message-----
From: dmm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jouni=
 Korhonen
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 2:25 PM
To: dmm@ietf.org
Cc: Julien Laganier
Subject: [DMM] Call for WG Adoption of a "current practices and gap analysi=
s" document

Folks,

We are unfortunately slipping our milestone, our (chairs) apologies for tha=
t. The next step is to select a "current practices and gap analysis" docume=
nt to serve as the basis for the future WG document. We consider two docume=
nts on this topic to choose from:

[1] draft-zuniga-dmm-gap-analysis-02
[2] draft-liu-dmm-best-practices-gap-analysis-01

and we as a WG need to decide which one is going to form the _basis_ for th=
e WG document.

Please voice your preference either for [1] or for [2] on the mailing list.=
 We would appreciate if you can also provide a one-liner justification for =
your selection. The chairs will determine if there is (rough) consensus fro=
m active WG participants to proceed with selecting one document against the=
 other.=20

The call starts today 19th Dec 2012 and ends by 10th Jan 2013. We have a lo=
nger three week call now due the holiday season in between.

- Jouni & Julien
_______________________________________________
dmm mailing list
dmm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm
_______________________________________________
dmm mailing list
dmm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm

From amuhanna@awardsolutions.com  Fri Dec 21 08:15:15 2012
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From: Ahmad Muhanna <amuhanna@awardsolutions.com>
To: h chan <h.anthony.chan@huawei.com>, Jouni Korhonen <jounikor@gmail.com>, "dmm@ietf.org" <dmm@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [DMM] [DMM Requirements] [WAS Call for WG Adoption of a "current practices and gap	analysis" document
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Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 16:13:13 +0000
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Subject: Re: [DMM] [DMM Requirements] [WAS Call for WG Adoption of a "current practices and gap	analysis" document
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Anthony,

Thanks for offering me to propose text, however, before getting into that, =
I would like to make sure that we understand the details and we are on the =
same page.

Good explanation! Please see some follow up questions below:
1. Do you mean an IP session is an IP address that is associated with a spe=
cific application that is hosted on a specific device (Mobile node) while b=
eing anchored at a specific Node in the network?

2. In addition, are you saying that every application is using a different =
IP session? Or multiple applications can use the same IP session?

3. I assume from your explanation, a specific device (mobile node) can have=
 multiple IP sessions that are hosted on that device, right?=20

4. Moreover, you seem to suggest that the same device can have multiple IP =
sessions with different mobility requirements. Correct?

Hopefully you do not mind the clarification.
Many thanks in advance!

Regards,
Ahmad

-----Original Message-----
From: h chan [mailto:h.anthony.chan@huawei.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 12:43 PM
To: Ahmad Muhanna; Jouni Korhonen; dmm@ietf.org
Cc: Julien Laganier
Subject: RE: [DMM] [DMM Requirements] [WAS Call for WG Adoption of a "curre=
nt practices and gap analysis" document

Ahmad,

The mobile nodes are running network applications (IP sessions).
Mobility can be thought of as being provided to the mobile nodes. Alternati=
vely it can be thought of as being provided to the applications. I think th=
e difference is shown in the following:

IP mobility support is not always needed by all network applications or at =
all times. Web-browser does not need it. A laptop often does not move durin=
g the life of an IP session.=20
So the flexibility to provide and not to provide mobility support is needed=
.=20

What REQ2 is trying to avoid is to provide mobility support to the mobile n=
odes such that it is provided by default to all the applications when the m=
obility support is provided to the mobile node.=20

So I would think of providing mobility support to the applications.

Please feel free to suggest text changes if the REQ are not clear.=20

H Anthony Chan

-----Original Message-----
From: dmm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ahmad=
 Muhanna
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 11:35 AM
To: Jouni Korhonen; dmm@ietf.org
Cc: Julien Laganier
Subject: Re: [DMM] [DMM Requirements] [WAS Call for WG Adoption of a "curre=
nt practices and gap analysis" document

Hello Jouni and All,

I am trying to catch up with the DMM working group.=20
I must admit that I was NOT able to follow all the discussions but I felt b=
efore being able to address the current practice and gap analysis, I needed=
 to understand the proposed requirements.

So, I went ahead and read the Requirements draft one more time and I found =
a couple of things that are essential to be clarified in order to have a so=
lid ground for hopefully a solid proposals and solutions.

   REQ1:  Distributed deployment

          IP mobility, network access and routing solutions provided by
          DMM MUST enable distributed deployment for mobility management
          of IP sessions so that traffic does not need to traverse
          centrally deployed mobility anchors and thus can be routed in
          an optimal manner.

[Ahmad]
In order to understand this requirement or may be in order for this require=
ment to be clear and makes sense, I would like to understand what is meant =
by IP session(s) in this context? And may be its relationship to the mobile=
 node.


   REQ2:  Transparency to Upper Layers when needed

          DMM solutions MUST provide transparent mobility support above
          the IP layer when needed.  Such transparency is needed, for
          example, when, upon change of point of attachment to the
          Internet, an application flow cannot cope with a change in the
          IP address.  Otherwise, support for maintaining a stable home
          IP address or prefix during handovers may be declined.

[Ahmad]
This a simple requirement that is phrased in a way that makes it a little m=
ore complex than needed. However, my question here is: how this requirement=
 is related to the "IP session(s)" mentioned in the REQ1? I believe it is f=
undamentally important to understand the relationship in order to be able t=
o move forward.


In addition, I believe the remaining requirements sort of straight forward =
and clarification of the above two points is essential (at least to me)

Thanks for all the help!

Regards,
Ahmad

-----Original Message-----
From: dmm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jouni=
 Korhonen
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 2:25 PM
To: dmm@ietf.org
Cc: Julien Laganier
Subject: [DMM] Call for WG Adoption of a "current practices and gap analysi=
s" document

Folks,

We are unfortunately slipping our milestone, our (chairs) apologies for tha=
t. The next step is to select a "current practices and gap analysis" docume=
nt to serve as the basis for the future WG document. We consider two docume=
nts on this topic to choose from:

[1] draft-zuniga-dmm-gap-analysis-02
[2] draft-liu-dmm-best-practices-gap-analysis-01

and we as a WG need to decide which one is going to form the _basis_ for th=
e WG document.

Please voice your preference either for [1] or for [2] on the mailing list.=
 We would appreciate if you can also provide a one-liner justification for =
your selection. The chairs will determine if there is (rough) consensus fro=
m active WG participants to proceed with selecting one document against the=
 other.=20

The call starts today 19th Dec 2012 and ends by 10th Jan 2013. We have a lo=
nger three week call now due the holiday season in between.

- Jouni & Julien
_______________________________________________
dmm mailing list
dmm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm
_______________________________________________
dmm mailing list
dmm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm

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Folks,

During the last meeting we had a presentation(s) on DMM framework
approaches. The discussion was somewhat left unfinished during and
after the meeting. It might be useful to have the discussion on the
mailing list now and not to postpone in to the next f2f meeting :)

Have a read e.g. on draft-liebsch-dmm-framework-analysis and say
what you have to say about DMM frameworks. I keep hearing we lack
the framework and at least I need to understand the possible need
for one..

- Jouni

From h.anthony.chan@huawei.com  Fri Dec 21 14:00:02 2012
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From: h chan <h.anthony.chan@huawei.com>
To: Ahmad Muhanna <amuhanna@awardsolutions.com>, Jouni Korhonen <jounikor@gmail.com>, "dmm@ietf.org" <dmm@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [DMM] [DMM Requirements] [WAS Call for WG Adoption of a "current practices and gap	analysis" document
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Ahmad,

I was referring to the IP address used as a session identifier which can be=
 the same as or different from the IP address used as a routing address of =
the MN interface. To identify the network session, a TCP session for exampl=
e uses source-destination IP addresses and port numbers in the socket to un=
iquely identify the network session between the MN and CN.=20

Referring to the IP address used as session identifier then: An MN can be r=
unning multiple IP application sessions. Each of these IP application sessi=
ons uses an IP address. The different IP application sessions run on the sa=
me MN can have the same or different IP addresses. =20

The use case of using different IP addresses for different IP application s=
essions by the same MN is as follows:

The mobile node has acquired an IP (routing) address as it attaches to a ne=
twork. With this IP address, it can run multiple network application sessio=
ns, say a telnet session and a VOIP call session. When it then moves to a d=
ifferent network, it will acquire a new IP (routing) address from the new n=
etwork. If it now starts a new application session(s) after it has already =
moved to the new network, it is easier to just use this new IP address as t=
he session identifier for these application sessions(s). (so that the IP ad=
dress used in session identifier is the same as the routing address.) This =
is the reason for REQ2.=20

The use case here is that for the mobile host, the VOIP call session can co=
ntinue after moving to the new network. This session will need to use the p=
revious IP address as the session identifier. Then the mobile node is now u=
sing 2 different IP addresses (used as session identifiers): the VOIP sessi=
on(s) which had started in the previous network and which has not yet termi=
nated will use the previous IP address; the new application sessions that s=
tarted after the MN has moved to the new network can use the new IP address=
.=20

H Anthony Chan

-----Original Message-----
From: Ahmad Muhanna [mailto:amuhanna@awardsolutions.com]=20
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 10:13 AM
To: h chan; Jouni Korhonen; dmm@ietf.org
Cc: Julien Laganier
Subject: RE: [DMM] [DMM Requirements] [WAS Call for WG Adoption of a "curre=
nt practices and gap analysis" document

Anthony,

Thanks for offering me to propose text, however, before getting into that, =
I would like to make sure that we understand the details and we are on the =
same page.

Good explanation! Please see some follow up questions below:
1. Do you mean an IP session is an IP address that is associated with a spe=
cific application that is hosted on a specific device (Mobile node) while b=
eing anchored at a specific Node in the network?

2. In addition, are you saying that every application is using a different =
IP session? Or multiple applications can use the same IP session?

3. I assume from your explanation, a specific device (mobile node) can have=
 multiple IP sessions that are hosted on that device, right?=20

4. Moreover, you seem to suggest that the same device can have multiple IP =
sessions with different mobility requirements. Correct?

Hopefully you do not mind the clarification.
Many thanks in advance!

Regards,
Ahmad

-----Original Message-----
From: h chan [mailto:h.anthony.chan@huawei.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 12:43 PM
To: Ahmad Muhanna; Jouni Korhonen; dmm@ietf.org
Cc: Julien Laganier
Subject: RE: [DMM] [DMM Requirements] [WAS Call for WG Adoption of a "curre=
nt practices and gap analysis" document

Ahmad,

The mobile nodes are running network applications (IP sessions).
Mobility can be thought of as being provided to the mobile nodes. Alternati=
vely it can be thought of as being provided to the applications. I think th=
e difference is shown in the following:

IP mobility support is not always needed by all network applications or at =
all times. Web-browser does not need it. A laptop often does not move durin=
g the life of an IP session.=20
So the flexibility to provide and not to provide mobility support is needed=
.=20

What REQ2 is trying to avoid is to provide mobility support to the mobile n=
odes such that it is provided by default to all the applications when the m=
obility support is provided to the mobile node.=20

So I would think of providing mobility support to the applications.

Please feel free to suggest text changes if the REQ are not clear.=20

H Anthony Chan

-----Original Message-----
From: dmm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ahmad=
 Muhanna
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 11:35 AM
To: Jouni Korhonen; dmm@ietf.org
Cc: Julien Laganier
Subject: Re: [DMM] [DMM Requirements] [WAS Call for WG Adoption of a "curre=
nt practices and gap analysis" document

Hello Jouni and All,

I am trying to catch up with the DMM working group.=20
I must admit that I was NOT able to follow all the discussions but I felt b=
efore being able to address the current practice and gap analysis, I needed=
 to understand the proposed requirements.

So, I went ahead and read the Requirements draft one more time and I found =
a couple of things that are essential to be clarified in order to have a so=
lid ground for hopefully a solid proposals and solutions.

   REQ1:  Distributed deployment

          IP mobility, network access and routing solutions provided by
          DMM MUST enable distributed deployment for mobility management
          of IP sessions so that traffic does not need to traverse
          centrally deployed mobility anchors and thus can be routed in
          an optimal manner.

[Ahmad]
In order to understand this requirement or may be in order for this require=
ment to be clear and makes sense, I would like to understand what is meant =
by IP session(s) in this context? And may be its relationship to the mobile=
 node.


   REQ2:  Transparency to Upper Layers when needed

          DMM solutions MUST provide transparent mobility support above
          the IP layer when needed.  Such transparency is needed, for
          example, when, upon change of point of attachment to the
          Internet, an application flow cannot cope with a change in the
          IP address.  Otherwise, support for maintaining a stable home
          IP address or prefix during handovers may be declined.

[Ahmad]
This a simple requirement that is phrased in a way that makes it a little m=
ore complex than needed. However, my question here is: how this requirement=
 is related to the "IP session(s)" mentioned in the REQ1? I believe it is f=
undamentally important to understand the relationship in order to be able t=
o move forward.


In addition, I believe the remaining requirements sort of straight forward =
and clarification of the above two points is essential (at least to me)

Thanks for all the help!

Regards,
Ahmad

-----Original Message-----
From: dmm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jouni=
 Korhonen
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 2:25 PM
To: dmm@ietf.org
Cc: Julien Laganier
Subject: [DMM] Call for WG Adoption of a "current practices and gap analysi=
s" document

Folks,

We are unfortunately slipping our milestone, our (chairs) apologies for tha=
t. The next step is to select a "current practices and gap analysis" docume=
nt to serve as the basis for the future WG document. We consider two docume=
nts on this topic to choose from:

[1] draft-zuniga-dmm-gap-analysis-02
[2] draft-liu-dmm-best-practices-gap-analysis-01

and we as a WG need to decide which one is going to form the _basis_ for th=
e WG document.

Please voice your preference either for [1] or for [2] on the mailing list.=
 We would appreciate if you can also provide a one-liner justification for =
your selection. The chairs will determine if there is (rough) consensus fro=
m active WG participants to proceed with selecting one document against the=
 other.=20

The call starts today 19th Dec 2012 and ends by 10th Jan 2013. We have a lo=
nger three week call now due the holiday season in between.

- Jouni & Julien
_______________________________________________
dmm mailing list
dmm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm
_______________________________________________
dmm mailing list
dmm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm

From h.anthony.chan@huawei.com  Fri Dec 21 14:44:57 2012
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From: h chan <h.anthony.chan@huawei.com>
To: jouni korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>, "dmm@ietf.org" <dmm@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [DMM] comments on draft-ietf-dmm-requirements-02
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Revised paragraph in Introduction:
   Mobile users are, more than ever, consuming Internet content; such
   traffic imposes new requirements on mobile core networks for data
   traffic delivery.  The presence of content providers closer to the
   mobile/fixed Internet Service Providers network requires taking into
   account local Content Delivery Networks (CDNs) while providing
   mobility services.  Moreover, when the traffic demand exceeds
   available capacity, service providers need to implement new
   strategies such as selective traffic offload (e.g. 3GPP work items
   LIPA/SIPTO [TS.23829]) through alternative access networks (e.g.
   WLAN) [Paper-Mobile.Data.Offloading].  Gateway selection mechanism is
   also taking the user proximity into account within EPC [TS.29303].
   These mechanisms were not pursued in the past owing to charging and
   billing reasons.  However assigning a gateway anchor node from a
   visited network in roaming scenario has until recently been done and
   are limited to voice services only.  Issues such as charging and
   billing require solutions beyond the mobility protocol.

H Anthony Chan


-----Original Message-----
From: dmm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of jouni=
 korhonen
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 3:33 PM
To: dmm@ietf.org
Subject: [DMM] comments on draft-ietf-dmm-requirements-02

Hi,

<as an individual contributor and not wearing any hats>

In Introduction it says:

  "..
   capacity, service providers need to implement new strategies such as
   selective traffic offload (e.g. 3GPP work items LIPA/SIPTO [TS.23829])
   through alternative access networks (e.g.  WLAN) [Paper-
   Mobile.Data.Offloading].  Moreover, the presence of content providers
   closer to the mobile/fixed Internet Service Providers network
   requires taking into account local Content Delivery Networks (CDNs)
   while providing mobility services."

 o I would also mention here that the gateway selection mechanism can take =
the
   user proximity into account at least within EPC [29.303].. as we are alr=
eady
   referencing to 3GPP as an example.

 o One another aspect I would mention here is the commercial deployment rea=
lity.
   While we have means for selecting and using more optimally located gatew=
ays
   those are not pursued due charging and billing reasons; here I mean that
   while assigning a gateway anchor node from a visited network while the M=
N is
   roaming is not done until recently (and still only limited to voice serv=
ices).
   That kind of issues are not solved by a mobility protocol but a differen=
t trust
   and/or billing models between network operators.


From h.anthony.chan@huawei.com  Fri Dec 21 14:47:04 2012
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From: h chan <h.anthony.chan@huawei.com>
To: jouni korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>, "dmm@ietf.org" <dmm@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [DMM] comments on draft-ietf-dmm-requirements-02
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Revised paragraph in Section 3.2:

   Mobility management may be partially or fully distributed.  In the
   former case only the data plane is distributed.  Fully distributed
   mobility management implies that both the data plane and the control
   plane are distributed.  These different approaches are described in
   detail in [I-D.yokota-dmm-scenario].  While mobility management can
   be distributed, it is not necessary for other functions to be
   similarly distributed.  For example, a centralized subscription
   management may co-exist with distributed mobility management.


H Anthony Chan


-----Original Message-----
From: dmm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of jouni=
 korhonen
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 3:33 PM
To: dmm@ietf.org
Subject: [DMM] comments on draft-ietf-dmm-requirements-02

Hi,

<as an individual contributor and not wearing any hats>

In Section 3.2

  "..
   former case only the data plane is distributed.  Fully distributed
   mobility management implies that both the data plane and the control
   plane are distributed.  These different approaches are described in
   .."

 o Would it be OK to mention here that even if full distribution could be a=
chieved
   for the mobility part of the system, some parts are still going to be ce=
ntralized
   or just geographically replicated at best? Here I mean functions like
   subscriber management, subscription databases and network access authent=
ication.



From h.anthony.chan@huawei.com  Fri Dec 21 14:51:37 2012
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From: h chan <h.anthony.chan@huawei.com>
To: Konstantinos Pentikousis <k.pentikousis@huawei.com>, jouni korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
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Revised PS2:

   PS2:  Divergence from other evolutionary trends in network
         architectures such as distribution of content delivery.

         Centralized mobility management can become non-optimal with a
         flat network architecture.

H Anthony Chan


-----Original Message-----
From: dmm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Konst=
antinos Pentikousis
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 12:28 PM
To: jouni korhonen
Cc: dmm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] comments on draft-ietf-dmm-requirements-02

Hi Jouni, all,

  |Maybe we need to then say something about it like
  |  "Divergence from other evolutionary trends in network
  |   architectures such as distribution of content delivery" ?

Sounds good to me.

  |No (without smile). But that is another trend to opposite direction
  |and we should have a sufficient argument for our assertion here imho. Wh=
at
  |is so fundamentally resource consuming in "mobility context" handling
  |that it requires distribution? Is it just a combination of all
  |functions in one place (that has little to do with mobility per se)?

I think scalability here refers to the "hub-and-spoke" nature of the routin=
g fabric as introduced by a "centralized" mobility anchor. You may have val=
id technical and/or operational reasons for adopting a hub-and-spoke model,=
 that's ok. But maybe others may want an alternative model which aims for d=
ifferent optimalities, and for those the hub-and-spoke model is not, well, =
"scalable".

SDN, well the OpenFlow flavor of it anyway, is "logically centralized" wrt =
network control, not how packets move around. SDN can do hub-and-spoke as w=
ell as other routing fabrics. Information-centric networking, another major=
 trend, is definitely not pointing towards the merits of the current type o=
f centralization... So I think PS3 is valid.
=20
  |I would need to implement the "mobility stack" whatever support function
  |anyway even if none of my application care about it.

If you are absolutely sure that none of your apps needs mobility support, a=
nd none will ever need it in the future, then there's no reason to implemen=
t it, sure. But if there's a chance one app may need it and 100 won't, then=
 perhaps you get to implement it. The difference is that, if you do impleme=
nt that "mobility stack", with conditional support you run that code for on=
e app only (and route the respective packets accordingly), while with today=
's approach you do the same for 101 apps.

Best Regards,

Kostas







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From: h chan <h.anthony.chan@huawei.com>
To: jouni korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>, Konstantinos Pentikousis <k.pentikousis@huawei.com>
Thread-Topic: [DMM] comments on draft-ietf-dmm-requirements-02
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Revised PS3=1B$B!'=1B(B
   PS3:  Low scalability of centralized tunnel management and mobility
         context maintenance

         Setting up tunnels through a central anchor and maintaining
         mobility context for each MN therein requires more resources in
         a centralized design, thus reducing scalability.  Distributing
         the tunnel maintenance function and the mobility context
         maintenance function among different network entities can
         increase scalability.

H Anthony Chan


-----Original Message-----
From: dmm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of jouni=
 korhonen
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 4:57 AM
To: Konstantinos Pentikousis
Cc: dmm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [DMM] comments on draft-ietf-dmm-requirements-02


>  |No (without smile). But that is another trend to opposite direction
>  |and we should have a sufficient argument for our assertion here imho. W=
hat
>  |is so fundamentally resource consuming in "mobility context" handling
>  |that it requires distribution? Is it just a combination of all
>  |functions in one place (that has little to do with mobility per se)?
>=20
> I think scalability here refers to the "hub-and-spoke" nature of the rout=
ing fabric as introduced by a "centralized" mobility anchor. You may have v=
alid technical and/or operational reasons for adopting a hub-and-spoke mode=
l, that's ok. But maybe others may want an alternative model which aims for=
 different optimalities, and for those the hub-and-spoke model is not, well=
, "scalable".
>=20
> SDN, well the OpenFlow flavor of it anyway, is "logically centralized" wr=
t network control, not how packets move around. SDN can do hub-and-spoke as=
 well as other routing fabrics. Information-centric networking, another maj=
or trend, is definitely not pointing towards the merits of the current type=
 of centralization... So I think PS3 is valid.

PS3 says "centralized route management".. I would be far more comfortable i=
f PS3 says "centralized tunnel management" which is more concretely what we=
 do today as per hub-and-spoke type tunneled traffic deployments.

>  |I would need to implement the "mobility stack" whatever support functio=
n
>  |anyway even if none of my application care about it.
>=20
> If you are absolutely sure that none of your apps needs mobility support,=
 and none will ever need it in the future, then there's no reason to implem=
ent it, sure. But if there's a chance one app may need it and 100 won't, th=
en perhaps you get to implement it. The difference is that, if you do imple=
ment that "mobility stack", with conditional support you run that code for =
one app only (and route the respective packets accordingly), while with tod=
ay's approach you do the same for 101 apps.

Fair reasoning. However, what is the "mobility stack" here then? Is it some=
thing we today understand as a MIP enabled stack or could it be something m=
ore generic? What I mean here is that we should be very cautious with MN si=
de impacts not to freak out less mobility cautious people. If the "mobility=
 stack" could be beneficial also outside mobility use cases that would be a=
wesome.

- Jouni



>=20
> Best Regards,
>=20
> Kostas
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20

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From: h chan <h.anthony.chan@huawei.com>
To: jouni korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>, "dmm@ietf.org" <dmm@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [DMM] comments on draft-ietf-dmm-requirements-02
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Subject: Re: [DMM] comments on draft-ietf-dmm-requirements-02
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Revised REQ4:

   REQ4:  Existing mobility protocols

          A DMM solution SHOULD first consider reusing and extending
          IETF-standardized protocols before specifying new protocols.

H Anthony Chan


-----Original Message-----
From: dmm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of jouni=
 korhonen
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 3:33 PM
To: dmm@ietf.org
Subject: [DMM] comments on draft-ietf-dmm-requirements-02


In Section 4.4:

  o I would just remove the sentence:=20
    "Motivation: Using IETF protocols is easier to deploy and to
     update." IMHO it brings no additional clarity what has already been
     said.


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Subject: [DMM] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dmm-requirements-03.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.
 This draft is a work item of the Distributed Mobility Management Working G=
roup of the IETF.

	Title           : Requirements for Distributed Mobility Management
	Author(s)       : H Anthony Chan
                          Dapeng Liu
                          Pierrick Seite
                          Hidetoshi Yokota
                          Jouni Korhonen
	Filename        : draft-ietf-dmm-requirements-03.txt
	Pages           : 19
	Date            : 2012-12-21

Abstract:
   This document defines the requirements for Distributed Mobility
   Management (DMM) in IPv6 deployments.  The traditionally hierarchical
   structure of cellular networks has led to deployment models which are
   in practice centralized.  Mobility management with logically
   centralized mobility anchoring in current mobile networks is prone to
   suboptimal routing and raises scalability issues.  Such centralized
   functions can lead to single points of failure and inevitably
   introduce longer delays and higher signaling loads for network
   operations related to mobility management.  The objective is to
   enhance mobility management in order to meet the primary goals in
   network evolution, i.e., improve scalability, avoid single points of
   failure, enable transparent mobility support to upper layers only
   when needed, and so on.  Distributed mobility management must be
   secure and compatible with existing network deployments and end
   hosts.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dmm-requirements

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dmm-requirements-03

A diff from the previous version is available at:
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-dmm-requirements-03


Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

