Subject: Re: Opt-in Decission day: Postponed

From: Randy Bush <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 12:19:38 -0700

> Could the chairs please give an update regarding Opt-in?

major pushback from the dns directorate.  we've been talking with
roy to try and get more comfortable with it.  roy and rob are working
on documenting an analysis.  patience.

randy

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From: "Matt Larson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 14:30:21 -0400

Matt

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Olafur Gudmundsson" <[email-masked]>
To: "DNSEXT mailing list" <[email-masked]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 12:16 PM
Subject: Opt-in Decission day: Postponed

> 
> At the Minneapolis meeting Randy and I stated that today would be
> the day that Opt-in fate would be announced.
> Due to fact that over the last two weeks both chairs have been
> traveling with limited (or no) email connectivity, we have not able
> jointly judge consensus of the working group.
> 
> The new decission date is now April 15'th.
> 
> 
> Olafur, today's chair withe e-mail connectivity :-)

---

From: Randy Bush <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 06:47:02 -0700

> Who is on the DNS directorate? What role do they play in approving the
> work that comes out of DNSEXT?

directorates are chosen by and advise area directors, in this case erik and
me.  currently, the dns directorate is composed of

    [email-masked]
    [email-masked]
    [email-masked]
    [email-masked]
    [email-masked]
    [email-masked]
    [email-masked]
    [email-masked]
    [email-masked]
    [email-masked]
    [email-masked]
    [email-masked]
    [email-masked]

dns-dir is a mailing list, of course, and a face-to-face dinner sunday
of ietf.  though we also did meet the beginning of week before last
specifically to hear roy on this issue and try and think about it a bit
more.

randy

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From: Sandy Harris <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 10:28:46 -0700

Mark Kosters wrote:

> Who is on the DNS directorate?

Area directors for Internet Area Working Groups,
which include DNSEXT:
http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/wg-dir.html#Internet Area

> What role do they play in approving the

BCPs on the process:

ftp://ftp.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc2026.txt
ftp://ftp.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc2028.txt

---

From: Mark Kosters <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 16:25:57 -0400

[ post by non-subscriber.  with the massive amount of spam, it is easy to
  miss and therefore delete mis-posts.  so fix subscription addresses! ]

Randy

Mark

-- 

Mark Kosters             [email-masked]       Verisign Applied Research

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From: David Conrad <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 08:25:14 -0700

Sandy,

> http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/wg-dir.html#Internet Area

The question was about the DNS directorate, not the ADs.

> ftp://ftp.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc2028.txt

I can't find a reference to "directorate" in either of these documents.  Can
you provide a pointer?

Tnx,
-drc

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From: Mark Kosters <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 11:42:20 -0400

> me.  currently, the dns directorate is composed of

Thanks for the list. However, I have not seen an answer to what role does
this group play in approving the work that comes out of DNSEXT.

> specifically to hear roy on this issue and try and think about it a bit

Is the mailing list open? If so, where are the archives?

Mark

--

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From: Randy Bush <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 08:44:54 -0700

> this group play in approving the work that comes out of DNSEXT.

it advises the area directors

> Is the mailing list open? If so, where are the archives?

no

randy

---

From: Randy Bush <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 08:51:39 -0700

> I can't find a reference to "directorate" in either of these documents.
> Can you provide a pointer?

sounds like time to move this non-technical and ietf-generic discussion
to the poised list.

randy

---

From: David Conrad <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 10:01:08 -0700

>>> work that comes out of DNSEXT?

would seem to be specific to DNSEXT and would (presumably, given the weight
their advice seems to play) have direct impact on the technical direction of
the working group.

Would you mind answering the question?

Tnx,
-drc

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From: Randy Bush <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 10:07:36 -0700

> would seem to be specific to DNSEXT and would (presumably, given the
> weight their advice seems to play) have direct impact on the technical
> direction of the working group.

i agree that it is germane

> Would you mind answering the question?

sure, for the third time.  they advise the area directors, in the case
of dns-dir, erik for dnsext and me for dnsops.

and again for good measure, directorates are chosen by area directors to
advise them.  that's it, pure and simple.  they have no power other than
having their advice taken or not, as they area director(s) may choose.

think of it as "hmmm, this is deep stuff.  maybe some folk i know and can
work with would be able to advise me."  there are directorates in transport,
sub-ip, wireless, and a number of other areas or subjects.

randy

---

From: Paul Vixie <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 10:27:56 -0700

> sub-ip, wireless, and a number of other areas or subjects.

so, the dnsext working group (even though it shares members with the dns
directorate, and is chaired by an area director) is considered to have
gone well and truly off into the weeks (like dnswg and dnsind before it)
and so now we're disbanding it, and ignoring its conclusions, and letting
the grownups come in and clean things up?

what a relief.  i almost thought i understood the ietf.  i'm better now.

---

From: Mark Kosters <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 13:44:18 -0400

> sounds like time to move this non-technical and ietf-generic discussion

I disagree. I'd like to see what the undocumented* decision process that 
affects work items that are on this mailing list and within the DNSEXT wg 
sessions discussed here. If there is a process issue that needs to 
be formalized, then it should move on to poised. People need to know what
is really going on (including myself) as we volunteer work to improve
DNS standards.

The reason I'm specifically concerned is that there was wg consensus on 
opt-in with delegations only restriction at ietf 53.  This dns directoriate 
group seems to be running against the consensus of the wg by "not liking" 
opt-in. Additionally, this group has not publically produced anything 
that defines their dislike that the authors can defend against. To me, the 
issue of having an undocumented decision point by a small group of people in 
a "open" standards organization smells bad.

If this is the way it is I think it would be prudent for the architects
of this directorate to then formalize this structure on poised.

Mark

*it may be documented but I have not seen a pointer. If I haven't seen
 it as a long time participant, then I'm sure there are others lurking
 about that have not seen it as well.

--

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From: David Conrad <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 11:30:34 -0700

In response to a private question:

> Where?

Interesting.  Both POISED and POISSON (ONgoing?  Um, yeah.) have concluded.
For those wondering where the mailing list Randy mentions is, try
[email-masked] (to subscribe, [email-masked]).

Rgds,
-drc
(seatac astronomy)