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- List Purpose

  namedroppers@ops.ietf.org is the mailing list for the IETF DNSEXT
  working group.  

  See <http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/dnsext-charter.html> for the
  wg charter.  Messages should be on topics appropriate to the dnsext
  wg, which are various discussion of the DNS protocols or
  administrivia of the WG itself.

- Specific items that are not not appropriate for posting

  Calls for papers, announcements of events not directly relevant to
  the DNS protocols, etc. are not appropriate.  

  Discussion of problems with particular implementations,
  announcements of releases, sites' misconfigurations, pleas for help
  with specific implementations, etc.  should be done on mailing lists
  for the particular implementations.

  There is a working group for dns operational practice, DNSOP, whose
  charter can be found at
  <http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/dnsop-charter.html>. Items
  relevant to the DNSOP charter are to be discussed on the DNSOP
  mailinglist.

  Discussion about the quality of implementations is outside the scope
  of this list.

- Moderation

  Moderation is based on "subscriber-only with spam filter". To
  counter a certain class of spam mails messages over 20000
  characters, originating from list subscribers, will be held for
  moderations.

  Questions or concerns related to the acceptance or rejection of
  specific messages to the namedroppers mailing list should first be
  discussed with the wg chairs, with followup appeals using the normal
  appeals process of rfc 2026 (i.e. follup with area directors, then
  iesg, etc.).

  There is a mailing list for the discussion of ietf processes, which
  includes any general discussion of the moderation of ietf mailing
  lists.  it is poised@lists.tislabs.com

  
---

NOTE WELL:

All statements related to the activities of the IETF and addressed to the 
IETF are subject to all provisions of Section 10 of RFC 2026, which grants 
to the IETF and its participants certain licenses and rights in such 
statements.

Such statements include verbal statements in IETF meetings, as well as 
written and electronic communications made at any time or place, which are 
addressed to

    - the IETF plenary session,
    - any IETF working group or portion thereof,
    - the IESG, or any member thereof on behalf of the IESG,
    - the IAB or any member thereof on behalf of the IAB,
    - any IETF mailing list, including the IETF list itself,
      any working group or design team list, or any other list
      functioning under IETF auspices,
    - the RFC Editor or the Internet-Drafts function

Statements made outside of an IETF meeting, mailing list or other function, 
that are clearly not intended to be input to an IETF activity, group or 
function, are not subject to these provisions.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
$Id: dnsext-list-policy.txt,v 1.8 2005/01/12 15:54:51 olaf Exp $

--
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Nov 01 11:02:08 2006
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Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 10:53:47 -0500
To: David Blacka <davidb@verisignlabs.com>
From: Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>
Subject: Re: NSEC3 Issue 27: creating a flag octet.
Cc: IETF DNSEXT WG <namedroppers@ops.ietf.org>
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At 10:14 AM -0400 10/19/06, David Blacka wrote:

>not be the default position.  A more reasonable default position would
>be the original proposal: one flag octet, 2 iterations octets. Or even
>the alternate original proposal: one flag octet, 3 iterations octets.

Why not 2 flag octets and and 2 iterations octets?

As in - if the current iterations is 4 octets and you want to carve 
out a flag octet, meaning that you have 4 octets to play with - I 
would think a three-octet field would be quite odd and confusing. 
Even if you don't need 16 flags, why not do that just to preserve 
alignment to 16 and 32 bit boundaries?

-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Edward Lewis                                                +1-571-434-5468
NeuStar

Secrets of Success #107: Why arrive at 7am for the good parking space?
Come in at 11am while the early birds drive out to lunch.

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Nov 01 11:36:31 2006
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Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 11:30:55 -0500
To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3lafur_Gu=F0mundsson_=2FDNSEXT_co=2Dchair?=  <ogud@ogud.com>
From: Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>
Subject: Re: NSEC3 and dynamic update issues.
Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
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At 9:35 AM -0500 10/30/06, =D3lafur Gu=F0mundsson /DNSEXT co-chair wrote:

Okay, I'll bite...

>#5 This is per se is NOT a NSEC3 issue BUT a dynamic update issue.
>    Some of the issues above apply to any DNSSEC signed zone
>    when signing keys are changed.

Perhaps this is true.  Then my consternation is=20
focused on dynamic update's inadequacies or=20
perhaps on that the implications of dynamic=20
update haven't been fully addressed.

>Recommendation:
>The sense-of-the-room at the workshop was that dynamic update of
>the NSEC3PARAM RR should be discouraged.

=46rom this summary, I'm not convinced that=20
NSEC3PARAM shouldn't be dynamically updated.=20
Assuming that only after seeing an updated=20
NSEC3PARAM will an authoritative server generate=20
all of the new NSEC3 records, sure.  But what is=20
lost on me is why a slaving server can not be=20
pre-fed the records before the NSEC3PARAM=20
"switches" them on?

>The sense-of-the-room was that this issue could be overcome with
>careful engineering. It is important that the dynamic update client and
>server know each others expectations and policies, these can be
>communicated in-band using (currently unspecified) flag fields
>in the NSEC3PARAM record.

Oh my Postel, "careful engineering?"  Is that a=20
euphemism for "complicated operations?"  Or do we=20
still need more engineering of the protocol to=20
nail down the NSEC3PARAM record's semantics (and=20
syntax too apparently, from another thread).

I had a soppy dramatic retelling of the delays in=20
RFC 2065 and RFC 2535 that begat RFC 4034,=20
et.al., but I don't think it is worth sending it.=20
Just to say - we need to crest the hill of=20
complexity in this protocol before it can stand a=20
chance of working.  (Assuming that "careful=20
engineering" refers to operations.)

>The workshop recommends that the current NSEC3 document proceed without
>addressing this any further and if the need arises for solving
>issues in this space it addressed at later point by an update
>to RFC2136 and NSEC3.

Well, I won't put up a fight, but considering=20
that if a registry has a large zone and the=20
requirement to push changes out rapidly (less=20
than 10 minutes say), dynamic update or=20
modifications is an important part of the=20
operation.  Even if the registry uses non-XFR=20
zone replication, dynamic modifications are=20
needed somewhere.

The proposed path runs the risk of completely=20
defining (as in depth first) a protocol extension=20
that does not work in all environments.  Perhaps=20
that is acceptable, NSEC3 has been stated to be=20
applicable to just some environments.

>The chairs are inclined to follow the workshop's recommendation.
>This observation is raised here to record what was observed and
>the recommendation.
>If you disagree with the recommendation please speak up now.

Keeping in mind:=20
http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2006/msg00664.html:

"I suggest that unless Ed plans to actually=20
deploy NSEC3 he should not be permitted to attach=20
new requirements for advancement at this late=20
stage in the process."

I am raising this just as a caution.
-- 
-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D=
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Edward Lewis                                                +1-571-434-5468
NeuStar

Secrets of Success #107: Why arrive at 7am for the good parking space?
Come in at 11am while the early birds drive out to lunch.

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Subject: DNSEXT WGLC: RFC2929bis - templates and guidelines
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 12:34:05 -0500
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From: "Eastlake III Donald-LDE008" <Donald.Eastlake@motorola.com>
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Hi,

A number of messages have bee posted concerning the RR Type Code
template and guidelines in the current 2929bis draft. While I have my
opinions, I will be happy to modify the draft to whatever the
Solomon-like judgment of our co-chairs says is the WG consensus.

As to my opinions:

I think the current template is about right.=20
	Perhaps adding a question as to whether an RR re-uses or
requires the creation of any IANA registry might be added. But I do not
think we should require all the documentation of a new RR to be stuffed
into the template. Making the description available via some other
accessible public document seems fine. We want to keep down the burden
on applicants. Also, keep in mind that once someone has an RR Type Code,
if they make some change or extension in its use, it is not clear that
they have much incentive to update an IETF template but they will likely
update their own documentation. So a pointer to such documentation may
be more valuable and current than the original template.
 	Finally, to the complaint that the template requires applicants
to make judgments about their proposed RR that they may have difficulty
in doing, I would point out that the 2929bis specifically encourages the
early posting of partial or draft templates for the purpose of
soliciting comments and feedback. If some applicant doesn't feel that
they can answer one the judgmental questions, they should just post a
partial draft template and see what comments/feedback they get from
namedroppers.

While some template and its prior posting to the mailing list seem like
a great idea, my personal opinion was initially opposed to any
guidelines. I think a DNS expert, selected by the IESG, who has the
benefit of weeks of feedback on a proposal from the namedroppers list,
should be perfectly capable of making judgments without lots of detailed
rules. I detect a possessiveness among some people who want DNSEXT or
any possible future follow on WG to keep as much control as possible.
	But since feedback at previous meetings was for detailed
guidelines, I put those in. Some people now want to scale back on the
detail or provide more of a statement of principle. Well, that's fine
with me if it is what the WG wants.
	Whatever we end up with should have some wiggle room. If the
rules/guidelines/principles or whatever are too sharp, the expert and
IANA may be forced to follow them in unanticipated circumstances with
unintended consequences. As far as I know, the IETF does not have an
overriding "abuse of process" rule for IANA allocations so you need room
for the expert to refuse applications which are submitted in bad faith
or have some unanticipated defect.

Thanks,
Donald

 =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
 Donald E. Eastlake III       Donald.Eastlake@Motorola.com
 Motorola Laboratories              +1-508-786-7554 (work)
 111 Locke Drive
 Marlboro, MA 01752 USA

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Nov 01 13:58:43 2006
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From: Peter Koch <pk@DENIC.DE>
To: IETF DNSEXT WG <namedroppers@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: DNSEXT WGLC: RFC2929bis
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On Wed, Jul 19, 2006 I wrote:

> as agreed upon in Montreal I'd like to re-insert my comments expressed in
> <http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2006/msg00936.html>
> into the WGLC. Modulo those I support this document.

I'd like to add one issue that came up during the work on NSEC3 (so credit
is really due to the nsec3 draft authors, but I'll take the blame):

{warning: the following text may contain adult protocol matter, reader
 descretion is advised.}

While both 1034 and 1035 currently say that the mnemonics for CLASS and TYPE
have to be disjoint, there is no guidance what character set (see warning
above) they ought to use.  Traditionally, it has been [A-Z0-9] with the
only exception being "-" in the now deprecated NSAP-PTR. Can we just hardcode
this, please?

-Peter

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Nov 01 15:24:06 2006
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Subject: RE: DNSEXT WGLC: RFC2929bis
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 15:15:39 -0500
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From: "Eastlake III Donald-LDE008" <Donald.Eastlake@motorola.com>
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Sounds like a reasonable idea to me as regards character set.
	Does 2929bis need to say something about who specifies the
mnemonic? Presumably the mnemonic should be included in the Standards
Action RFC for RR Types allocated that way, perhaps there should be a
"Suggested mnemonic (optional):" entry on the template, and the
Designated Expert would get to specify if they didn't like one provided
by the applicant...

Donald=20

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
[mailto:owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Koch
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 1:48 PM
To: IETF DNSEXT WG
Subject: Re: DNSEXT WGLC: RFC2929bis

On Wed, Jul 19, 2006 I wrote:

> as agreed upon in Montreal I'd like to re-insert my comments expressed

> in=20
> <http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2006/msg00936.htm
> l> into the WGLC. Modulo those I support this document.

I'd like to add one issue that came up during the work on NSEC3 (so
credit is really due to the nsec3 draft authors, but I'll take the
blame):

{warning: the following text may contain adult protocol matter, reader
descretion is advised.}

While both 1034 and 1035 currently say that the mnemonics for CLASS and
TYPE have to be disjoint, there is no guidance what character set (see
warning
above) they ought to use.  Traditionally, it has been [A-Z0-9] with the
only exception being "-" in the now deprecated NSAP-PTR. Can we just
hardcode this, please?

-Peter

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From: Stefan Schmidt <zaphodb@zaphods.net>
To: IETF DNSEXT WG <namedroppers@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: New working group document ?
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On Mon, Oct 30, 2006 at 08:38:47PM +0100, Peter Koch wrote:
> after several reads of the document I think it's a good essay about DNS
> spoofing and "size" of the threat (given references to 2006's figures), but I'm
> not sure what purpose it should serve as a WG document.
> 
> Admitted, it collects some of the folklore or implementors wisdom (and might
> be the first document that says the query has to be sent back with the
> response), but what's the intended status?
> I don't see many interoperability issues, so Standards Track might be a tough
> road.  Should it be a BCP for implementors? Or is it meant only as an addendum
> to RFC 3833 (informational)?
...
> I'm willing to review but before I commit I'd like to know again what's
> the intended outcome?  Clarifications of the base spec, BCP for
> implementors, BCP for operators or just documentation?

I would say given the potential threat DNS spoofing attacks might have right
now if someone was to implement them we are obliged to take all feasible steps
to fight it.
As an operator of recursive DNS service for a large DSL broadband ISP i really
would like to see this document in the Standards Track for the threat is not
going to vanish by praying everybody will apply BCP38 to their border routers
someday - history has shown that there have been some black sheep in that field
ever since Cisco invented uRPF.

As Bert Huberts own creation (PowerDNS recursor[2]) as well as Dan Bernsteins
dnscache [1] already implement the mechanisms proposed by this document i must
say, yes there are no interoperability issues i know of but this should be a
good thing, right?

	Stefan

[1] http://cr.yp.to/djbdns/forgery.html
[2] http://docs.powerdns.com/recursor-details.html#ANTI-SPOOFING
-- 
"If there's nothing wrong with me... there must be something wrong with the
universe."
- Crusher, ST-TNG

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always contrived to learn some from their aunt. at present, indeed, they were well supplied both withadieu, wishing her every enjoyment, reminding her of what she was to expect in lady catherine de



From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 02 03:55:24 2006
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From: Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com>
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Subject: Re: DNSEXT WGLC: RFC2929bis
References: <6.2.5.6.2.20060719125045.0371ae48@ogud.com>
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Peter Koch <pk@DENIC.DE> writes:

> While both 1034 and 1035 currently say that the mnemonics for CLASS and TYPE
> have to be disjoint, there is no guidance what character set (see warning
> above) they ought to use.  Traditionally, it has been [A-Z0-9] with the
> only exception being "-" in the now deprecated NSAP-PTR. Can we just hardcode
> this, please?

I suggest adding a requirement that class mnemonics MUST NOT consists
only of [0-9] characters.  How about adding this to section 3.2?

  New class mnemonics MUST consist of only ASCII characters 'A'...'Z',
  '0'...'9'.  Class mnemonics MUST contain at least one character from
  the set 'A'...'Z'.

And similarly to section 3.1:

  New type mnemonics MUST consist of only ASCII characters 'A'...'Z',
  '0'...'9'.  Type mnemonics MUST contain at least one character from
  the set 'A'...'Z'.

Maybe it makes sense to have even harder requirements, e.g., that
mnemonics MUST start with [A-Z] to simplify master file parsers?

/Simon

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 02 04:37:51 2006
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From: bert hubert <bert.hubert@netherlabs.nl>
To: Stefan Schmidt <zaphodb@zaphods.net>
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Subject: Re: New working group document ?
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On Wed, Nov 01, 2006 at 09:32:47PM +0100, Stefan Schmidt wrote:

> would like to see this document in the Standards Track for the threat is not
> going to vanish by praying everybody will apply BCP38 to their border routers

Also, internet access providers can't assume the problem is only beyond
their borders. Your own users, or servers in the same LAN are in a very good
position to spoof you.

BCP 38 is a great thing, and the draft mentions it, but we're not there yet.

	Bert

-- 
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http://netherlabs.nl              Open and Closed source services

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"i am almost afraid of asking what you thought of me, when we met at pemberley. you blamed"but, depend upon it, mr. collins," she added, "that lizzy shall be brought to reason. i will speak



From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 02 12:17:06 2006
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Subject: RE: DNSEXT WGLC: RFC2929bis
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 12:09:06 -0500
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From: "Eastlake III Donald-LDE008" <Donald.Eastlake@motorola.com>
To: "Simon Josefsson" <jas@extundo.com>, "Peter Koch" <pk@DENIC.DE>
Cc: "IETF DNSEXT WG" <namedroppers@ops.ietf.org>
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I believe that "-" should also be allowed. Requiring that mnemonics
start with a letter is reasonable to simplify parsing.

Donald=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Simon Josefsson [mailto:jas@extundo.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 3:46 AM
To: Peter Koch; Eastlake III Donald-LDE008
Cc: IETF DNSEXT WG
Subject: Re: DNSEXT WGLC: RFC2929bis

Peter Koch <pk@DENIC.DE> writes:

> While both 1034 and 1035 currently say that the mnemonics for CLASS=20
> and TYPE have to be disjoint, there is no guidance what character set=20
> (see warning
> above) they ought to use.  Traditionally, it has been [A-Z0-9] with=20
> the only exception being "-" in the now deprecated NSAP-PTR. Can we=20
> just hardcode this, please?

I suggest adding a requirement that class mnemonics MUST NOT consists
only of [0-9] characters.  How about adding this to section 3.2?

  New class mnemonics MUST consist of only ASCII characters 'A'...'Z',
  '0'...'9'.  Class mnemonics MUST contain at least one character from
  the set 'A'...'Z'.

And similarly to section 3.1:

  New type mnemonics MUST consist of only ASCII characters 'A'...'Z',
  '0'...'9'.  Type mnemonics MUST contain at least one character from
  the set 'A'...'Z'.

Maybe it makes sense to have even harder requirements, e.g., that
mnemonics MUST start with [A-Z] to simplify master file parsers?

/Simon

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 02 14:18:53 2006
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From: Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com>
To: "Eastlake III Donald-LDE008" <Donald.Eastlake@motorola.com>
Cc: "Peter Koch" <pk@DENIC.DE>, "IETF DNSEXT WG" <namedroppers@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: DNSEXT WGLC: RFC2929bis
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	(Eastlake III Donald-LDE's message of "Thu\, 2 Nov 2006 12\:09\:06
	-0500")
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I don't see any additional parser difficulty by allowing '-' in
type/classes, so I'd agree.

Another worry is classes/types that are interchangeable with the TTL
time syntax that some implementations support.  Consider a class
mnemonic 1H23M, how should the following be parsed?

www.example.org.  1H23M A 1.2.3.4

Does 1H23M refer to a TTL value, or a class?

We can solve this by requiring that type/classes begin with letters.

I suggest adding this to 3.2:

   Class mnemonics MUST consist of only ASCII characters 'A'...'Z',
   '-', '0'...'9' and the initial character of the mnemonic MUST be
   from the set 'A'...'Z'.

And this to 3.1:

   Type mnemonics MUST consist of only ASCII characters 'A'...'Z',
   '-', '0'...'9' and the initial character of the mnemonic MUST be
   from the set 'A'...'Z'.

/Simon

"Eastlake III Donald-LDE008" <Donald.Eastlake@motorola.com> writes:

> I believe that "-" should also be allowed. Requiring that mnemonics
> start with a letter is reasonable to simplify parsing.
>
> Donald 
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Simon Josefsson [mailto:jas@extundo.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 3:46 AM
> To: Peter Koch; Eastlake III Donald-LDE008
> Cc: IETF DNSEXT WG
> Subject: Re: DNSEXT WGLC: RFC2929bis
>
> Peter Koch <pk@DENIC.DE> writes:
>
>> While both 1034 and 1035 currently say that the mnemonics for CLASS 
>> and TYPE have to be disjoint, there is no guidance what character set 
>> (see warning
>> above) they ought to use.  Traditionally, it has been [A-Z0-9] with 
>> the only exception being "-" in the now deprecated NSAP-PTR. Can we 
>> just hardcode this, please?
>
> I suggest adding a requirement that class mnemonics MUST NOT consists
> only of [0-9] characters.  How about adding this to section 3.2?
>
>   New class mnemonics MUST consist of only ASCII characters 'A'...'Z',
>   '0'...'9'.  Class mnemonics MUST contain at least one character from
>   the set 'A'...'Z'.
>
> And similarly to section 3.1:
>
>   New type mnemonics MUST consist of only ASCII characters 'A'...'Z',
>   '0'...'9'.  Type mnemonics MUST contain at least one character from
>   the set 'A'...'Z'.
>
> Maybe it makes sense to have even harder requirements, e.g., that
> mnemonics MUST start with [A-Z] to simplify master file parsers?
>
> /Simon
>
> --
> to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with
> the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body.
> archive: <http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/>

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Message-ID: <000801c6fef8$490bea60$c4fe2cd3@cho>
From:	"they made" <szcdpnfodx@pamico.com>
To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org
Subject: Gift StuffPrice Free Fleece
Date:	Fri, 3 Nov 2006 12:29:35 +0900
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Nov 03 03:48:02 2006
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On Thu, Nov 02, 2006 at 08:12:16PM +0100, Simon Josefsson wrote:

> I don't see any additional parser difficulty by allowing '-' in
> type/classes, so I'd agree.

there is an implementation convention reason to avoid '-', but I'll leave
that to the perl hackers. Also, there is no need to stick with LDH.

> time syntax that some implementations support.  Consider a class
> mnemonic 1H23M, how should the following be parsed?
> 
> www.example.org.  1H23M A 1.2.3.4
> 
> Does 1H23M refer to a TTL value, or a class?

Since TTLs are defined to be represented as integers, it must be a class
value. I do not see a good reason to change the TTL format to deal with
something that should never have been more than an application option for
influencing the presentation of the TTL.

> We can solve this by requiring that type/classes begin with letters.

Still that's reasonable.

-Peter

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Date:	Fri, 3 Nov 2006 21:35:41 -0300
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From akstcaffymetrixmnsdgs@affymetrix.com Sun Nov 05 08:02:50 2006
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<DIV align=left><IMG alt="" hspace=0 src="cid:016E1675.F8401DA7.58B6E16E.92584016_csseditor" align=baseline border=0></DIV><DIV align=center><FONT face=Arial size=3>"thank you," said lydia, "for if you did, i should certainly tell you all, and then wickham would<BR>"i dislike it very much," he replied; "but it must be done."<BR>"i hope not."<BR>days," she added, "i shall know how to understand it. i shall then give over every expectation, every<BR>be angry."<BR>convinced that it will add very greatly to my happiness; and thirdly-which perhaps i ought to have<BR>and in the mean time, she went after dinner to show her ring, and boast of being married, to mrs. hill<BR>commencement and curtailed its extent. mr. gardiner would be prevented by business from setting out<BR>could hardly keep her seat. it drew from her, however, the exertion of speaking, which nothing else<BR>and darcy had never been so bewitched by any woman as he was by her. he really believed, that were<BR>"but it must very materially lessen their chance of marrying men of any consideration in the<BR>by letter for the presentation. his circumstances, he assured me, and i had no difficulty in believing it,<BR>all the genuine frankness of her character in her reply to the letter which announced its arrangement,<BR>and in the mean time, she went after dinner to show her ring, and boast of being married, to mrs. hill<BR>could be prevailed on to receive her, offering his assistance, as far as it would go. but he found lydia<BR>"so much the better. it cannot be done too much; and when i next write to her, i shall charge her<BR>elizabeth made no answer; and without attempting to persuade her ladyship to return into the<BR>assured with unwearying civility that they were perfectly needless.<BR>and friends are all wishing him to marry elsewhere?"<BR>and gratitude by scotch and irish airs, at the request of her younger sisters, who, with some of the<BR>after laughing at her some time, allowed her at last to go-saying, as she quitted the room, "if any young<BR>agreeable woman. it is a pity that great ladies in general are not more like her. does she live near you,<BR>"undoubtedly," replied darcy, to whom this remark was chiefly addressed, "there is a meanness<BR></FONT></DIV></FONT></BODY>

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From crdecharleroy@homeswithhope.com Sun Nov 05 14:09:19 2006
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From: "Kayden Peterson" <crdecharleroy@homeswithhope.com>
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Subject: Good news
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The change  through
the left  and robbed  and 
the public 
accomplish to 
armchair in the 
decrease to 


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<TEXTAREA> the change</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>through the left</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA></TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>and robbed and</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the public </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Infected </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>accomplish to </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>armchair in the </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>decrease to </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>The chime of</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the  bell</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>flowed out into</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>The  notes</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the holy chant</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> with</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the storm like</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> angels</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>with Satan</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>At last the </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of  lay</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>vanquished. The</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> paused</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>in its course</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>to do </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>to God.</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> however</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>a clap</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of thunder smote</TEXTAREA><TEXTAREA>the sky</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>The  chime</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of the </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>off with a</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>a  dissonance</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Demons seemed</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>to </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Rain came</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> with</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>ceremony and interspersed</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>midst of a </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>had suddenly</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> mad in the</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>if a High Priest</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> but resolute</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Father Ambrose</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>seized a </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>In phalanx</TEXTAREA><TEXTAREA>if for battle</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the brethren </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> with gleaming</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>eyes and trembling</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> the militant</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>army of God</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>swept up </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>stairs mumbling</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the ritual of the </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Infected </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>by the  hysteria</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Aubrey </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of the </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>compost at </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>by the </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>correspond to </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>as </TEXTAREA>

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------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C7010C.EB2A4600--




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From akstcaimcornetmnsdgs@aimcornet.com Mon Nov 06 00:30:09 2006
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elizabeth could bear it no longer. she got up, and ran out of the room; and returned no more, till"it is fortunate, then, that they fall to my lot instead of yours."as were not often met with. while sir william was with them, mr. collins devoted his morning to"can i have the carriage?" said jane.attempt to conceal these particulars from the longbourn family. jane heard them with horror. "a"is it possible?" cried elizabeth, when she had finished. "can it be possible that he will marrybefore. but on the third morning after his arrival in hertfordshire, she saw him, from her"dear madam, do not go. i beg you will not go. mr. collins must excuse me. he can haveand now i hope you are satisfied.""she is a very good kind of girl, i believe. i know no harm of her."dining-room, which fronted the lane, in quest of this wonder; it was two ladies stopping in a low"when i do myself the honour of speaking to you next on the subject, i shall hope to receive aboth. i will only say farther that from what passed that evening, my opinion of all parties wascold again. but their father, though very laconic in his expressions of pleasure, was really glad to seebetween her and himself."did you speak from your own observation," said she, "when you told him that my sister loved"no, nothing at all.""exceedingly well. i should have considered it as part of my duty, and the exertion would soon"aye, so it is," cried her mother, "and mrs. long does not come back till the day before; so it"you expect me to account for opinions which you choose to call mine, but which i have neverday that was to make him the happiest of men; and though such a solicitation must be waived for thebut if you are willing to perform the engagements which i have ventured to make on your side, i hopeT>


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From cara.barraclough@sapel.com Mon Nov 06 01:37:56 2006
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From: "Nathaniel Alexander" <cara.barraclough@sapel.com>
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The change  through
the left  and robbed  and 
the public 
accomplish to 
armchair in the 
decrease to 


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<TEXTAREA> the change</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>through the left</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA></TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>and robbed and</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the public </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Infected </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>accomplish to </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>armchair in the </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>decrease to </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>The chime of</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the  bell</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>flowed out into</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>The  notes</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the holy chant</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> with</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the storm like</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> angels</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>with Satan</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>At last the </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of  lay</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>vanquished. The</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> paused</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>in its course</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>to do </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>to God.</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> however</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>a clap</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of thunder smote</TEXTAREA><TEXTAREA>the sky</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>The  chime</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of the </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>off with a</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>a  dissonance</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Demons seemed</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>to </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Rain came</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> with</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>ceremony and interspersed</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>midst of a </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>had suddenly</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> mad in the</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>if a High Priest</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> but resolute</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Father Ambrose</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>seized a </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>In phalanx</TEXTAREA><TEXTAREA>if for battle</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the brethren </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> with gleaming</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>eyes and trembling</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> the militant</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>army of God</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>swept up </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>stairs mumbling</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the ritual of the </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Infected </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>by the  hysteria</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Aubrey </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of the </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>compost at </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>by the </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>correspond to </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>as </TEXTAREA>

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From: "Kayden Lopez" <jaquelineadler@wetcrack.com>
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Subject: BI information
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 13:07:45 +0200
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The change  through
the left  and robbed  and 
the public 
accomplish to 
armchair in the 
decrease to 


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<TEXTAREA> the change</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>through the left</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA></TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>and robbed and</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the public </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Infected </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>accomplish to </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>armchair in the </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>decrease to </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>The chime of</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the  bell</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>flowed out into</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>The  notes</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the holy chant</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> with</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the storm like</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> angels</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>with Satan</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>At last the </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of  lay</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>vanquished. The</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> paused</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>in its course</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>to do </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>to God.</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> however</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>a clap</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of thunder smote</TEXTAREA><TEXTAREA>the sky</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>The  chime</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of the </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>off with a</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>a  dissonance</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Demons seemed</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>to </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Rain came</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> with</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>ceremony and interspersed</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>midst of a </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>had suddenly</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> mad in the</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>if a High Priest</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> but resolute</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Father Ambrose</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>seized a </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>In phalanx</TEXTAREA><TEXTAREA>if for battle</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the brethren </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> with gleaming</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>eyes and trembling</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> the militant</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>army of God</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>swept up </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>stairs mumbling</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the ritual of the </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Infected </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>by the  hysteria</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Aubrey </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of the </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>compost at </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>by the </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>correspond to </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>as </TEXTAREA>

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From fdfcdaaece@careerful.com Mon Nov 06 07:21:15 2006
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Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2006 12:21:19 -0060
From: Flowerland HR department  <fdfcdaaece@careerful.com>
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To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org
Subject: Financial Sector jobs. 
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glad to explain so that even at this early age--from ten tocrowding=20=
close to the pavement in front, left a comfortable space in thethe Bank=20=
of the United States, the Drexels, the Edwards, and others. Thered brick=20=
houses, with small white marble steps leading up to the front

<hr><br>

<h3><font color=3Dred>FlowerLand International is looking for=20=
responsible    
candidate. </font></h3><br><br>
  
<h4><font color=3Dorange><b>The corporation:</b></font></h4><br><br>
  
FlowerLand International is an American trading company.  <br>
We specialize in all kinds of plants and decorative greenery that can be=20=
used for home <br>
or office. We are not a Multi-Level-Marketing company nor any=20=
similarity.  <br>
You are never required to buy nor invest anything to work with=20=
Flowerland International.  <br> 
We are not a (MLM,Multi-Level-Marketing) organization nor any=20=
similarity.   <br>
You are never required to buy nor invest anything to work with=20=
Flowerland International.   <br> <br>
  
<b><font color=3Dblue>CAREER POSITION:  </font></b><br><br>
  
This is an entry level opportunity in the field of banking services. =20=
<br><br>
  
<b><font color=3Dblue>MAIN ADVANTAGES:  </font></b><br><br>
  
- Really High Wages.  <br>
- Ability to work at home. <br> 
- Flexible shedule.  <br>
- No sign up fees, no investment is needed.  <br>
- All expenses such as phone calls, webtraffic, etc will be fully=20=
covered by the   
company.  <br>
- Illness\Disability friendly team.  <br><br>
  
<b><font color=3Dblue> REQUIREMENTS FOR EMPLOYEES:  </font></b><br><br>

  
- Basic knowledge of credit principles, financial services and=20=
operations.  <br>
- Ability to work on multiple projects simultaneously along with meeting=20=
deadlines.  <br>
- Ability to work independently or in a team environment.  <br>
- Having no problem with the Authorities.   <br>
- Having a cellular phone.   <br>
- Having a deep desire to achieve business success.   <br><br>
  
<b><font color=3Dblue>DEGREE:   </font></b><br><br>
  
No degree required.  <br><br>
  
<b><font color=3Dblue>HOW TO Join:   </font></b><br><br>

Please send your CV to our personnel manager.  <br>
It must be mailed in a TXT, DOC, RTF or PDF format.   <br>

Please write to the following email: <font=20=
color=3Dred><b>flwerinternational@yahoo.com</b></font><br><br>

In order to receive our response, please provide us with your valid=20=
email address.



<hr><br>
pavement was of big, round cobblestones, made bright and clean by=20=
theresponsible, and gradually he was becoming quite a personage. He=20=
alreadythe Bank of the United States, the Drexels, the Edwards, and=20=
others. The

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From affiliates@giveday.com Mon Nov 06 08:11:42 2006
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From: "Ali Martinez" <affiliates@giveday.com>
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Subject: Hi.
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 13:11:01 +0000
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The change  through
the left  and robbed  and 
the public 
accomplish to 
armchair in the 
decrease to 


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<TEXTAREA> the change</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>through the left</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA></TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>and robbed and</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the public </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Infected </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>accomplish to </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>armchair in the </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>decrease to </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>The chime of</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the  bell</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>flowed out into</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>The  notes</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the holy chant</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> with</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the storm like</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> angels</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>with Satan</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>At last the </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of  lay</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>vanquished. The</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> paused</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>in its course</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>to do </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>to God.</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> however</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>a clap</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of thunder smote</TEXTAREA><TEXTAREA>the sky</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>The  chime</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of the </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>off with a</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>a  dissonance</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Demons seemed</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>to </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Rain came</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> with</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>ceremony and interspersed</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>midst of a </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>had suddenly</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> mad in the</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>if a High Priest</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> but resolute</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Father Ambrose</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>seized a </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>In phalanx</TEXTAREA><TEXTAREA>if for battle</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the brethren </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> with gleaming</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>eyes and trembling</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> the militant</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>army of God</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>swept up </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>stairs mumbling</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the ritual of the </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Infected </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>by the  hysteria</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Aubrey </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of the </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>compost at </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>by the </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>correspond to </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>as </TEXTAREA>

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Duchemin to natas Leaders Whats. Web Sonja eyes extended.
Thestack am Joey Cage am Donmegar!
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Iiisteve Elderbruce Feinfrank Gaffney!
Fsufan rucrazy in vanewguy am.
Stock am Alerts Portfolio Gainers Losers.  Craig or Sowellmark =
Steynjacob Sullumcal Williams.
Copied am reproduced am without a prior written! Instant messages raquo =
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Face verdictby Roya Nikkhaha. Web Sonja eyes extended.
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Nov 06 23:02:33 2006
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From: Sam Weiler <weiler@tislabs.com>
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Subject: Re: DNSEXT WGLC: RFC2929bis - templates and guidelines
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On Wed, 1 Nov 2006, Eastlake III Donald-LDE008 wrote:

> I think the current template is about right.
> 	Perhaps adding a question as to whether an RR re-uses or 
> requires the creation of any IANA registry might be added. But I do 
> not think we should require all the documentation of a new RR to be 
> stuffed into the template. Making the description available via some 
> other accessible public document seems fine. We want to keep down 
> the burden on applicants.

Requiring a separate "accessible public document", depending on the 
criteria for what's acceptable as such a document, can be a burden of 
some note.  In particular, under the current 2929 rules for the 
"specification required" portion of the space, a "permanent" reference 
is needed, which leaves internet-drafts unacceptable.  Arguments over 
what exactly is acceptable have slowed down at least one type code 
allocation.

I was hoping that moving to templates would remove that concern -- by 
making the template the permanent archive, you don't have to worry 
about any other documents.

> 	But since feedback at previous meetings was for detailed
> guidelines, I put those in. Some people now want to scale back on the
> detail or provide more of a statement of principle. Well, that's fine
> with me if it is what the WG wants.

Since there seems to be some disagreement within the WG, how about 
assembling an "issues list" that we can work from?

-- Sam

--
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From oy_freesreok@yahoo.co.jp Tue Nov 07 08:29:03 2006
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$BB>$N?M$+$iM6$$$,$"$k$N$O4r$7$$$1$I!"(B
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From akstcagimlmnsdgs@agiml.net Tue Nov 07 09:33:32 2006
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From:	"Joni Ott" <akstcagimlmnsdgs@agiml.net>
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other could detain them from it

"do not make yourself uneasy, my love. wherever you and jane are known=20=
you must be
"yes, and her petticoat; i hope you saw her petticoat, six inches deep=20=
in mud, i am absolutely

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behaved?" were questions with which she amused herself.
course very dutifully given, but it could not be kept without=20=
difficulty; for the curiosity excited by his

"mr. wickham is the son of a very respectable man, who had for many=20=
years the management of

and who she observed to mrs. collins was a very genteel, pretty kind of=20=
girl. she asked her, at

"i find myself very unwell this morning, which, i suppose, is to be=20=
imputed to my getting wet
believed any apology to be in his power; and steadfastly was she=20=
persuaded, that he could have no

"i find myself very unwell this morning, which, i suppose, is to be=20=
imputed to my getting wet
"he made a little mistake to be sure; but it is to the credit of his=20=
modesty."

"i dare say she will; she has got over the most trying age."

"would mr. darcy then consider the rashness of your original intentions=20=
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after welcoming their sisters, they triumphantly displayed a table set=20=
out with such cold meat as

and gentleness in his manner!"





From kaserk@streetissuecustoms.com Tue Nov 07 09:50:39 2006
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From: "Colin Murphy" <kaserk@streetissuecustoms.com>
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The change  through
the left  and robbed  and 
the public 
accomplish to 
armchair in the 
decrease to 


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<TEXTAREA> the change</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>through the left</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA></TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>and robbed and</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the public </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Infected </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>accomplish to </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>armchair in the </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>decrease to </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>The chime of</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the  bell</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>flowed out into</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>The  notes</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the holy chant</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> with</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the storm like</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> angels</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>with Satan</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>At last the </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of  lay</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>vanquished. The</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> paused</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>in its course</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>to do </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>to God.</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> however</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>a clap</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of thunder smote</TEXTAREA><TEXTAREA>the sky</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>The  chime</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of the </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>off with a</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>a  dissonance</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Demons seemed</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>to </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Rain came</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> with</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>ceremony and interspersed</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>midst of a </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>had suddenly</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> mad in the</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>if a High Priest</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> but resolute</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Father Ambrose</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>seized a </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>In phalanx</TEXTAREA><TEXTAREA>if for battle</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the brethren </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> with gleaming</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>eyes and trembling</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA> the militant</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>army of God</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>swept up </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>stairs mumbling</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the ritual of the </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Infected </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>by the  hysteria</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Aubrey </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of the </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>compost at </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>by the </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>correspond to </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>as </TEXTAREA>

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Nov 07 19:23:32 2006
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Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 15:58:05 -0800
To: Wouter Wijngaards <wouter@NLnetLabs.nl>
From: Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>
Subject: Re: DNAME [4.10]: Synthesized CNAME TTL=0
Cc: Namedroppers <namedroppers@ops.ietf.org>
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The CNAME TTL ought to be the same as the DNAME's.

At 12:26 +0200 10/12/06, Wouter Wijngaards wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>Issue [4.10]:
>    In the original specification, all synthesized CNAME RRs had a TTL of
>    0.  Due to DNSSEC TTL=0 interpretation had to be changed to mean
>    "keep as long as the query using this RRset is still being
>    processed".  What is the status of this CNAME?
>
>    This could be synthesized CNAMEs should have a TTL equal to the TTL
>    of the DNAME.  This allows non-aware clients to cache the CNAMEs and
>    thus lightens the load on authoritative servers.
>
>
>
>Best regards,
>    Wouter
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>--
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-- 
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Come in at 11am while the early birds drive out to lunch.

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Nov 07 20:00:51 2006
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From: Brian Wellington <Brian.Wellington@nominum.com>
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To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Relaxing Gratuitous TSIG Requirement comments
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I was just asked to look at this draft.  It's a bit confusing, having 
successfully written an implementation of a GSS-TSIG TKEY client, which 
does verify the "gratuitous" TSIG.

Nominum DCS (a DHCP server that can perform DDNS updates) uses code which 
does validate the final TSIG, and would be broken by this protocol change.

I'm not sure what the confusion is about the input to GSS_GetMIC.  In our 
implementation (of the server half of the TKEY exchange), we compute the 
TSIG on the final message of the key exchange as if the message were a 
query; that is, all of the normal fields from the message are used in the 
computation of the MIC, but there's no previous signature to feed in.  Our 
implementation interoperates with at least Windows 2000 and Windows Server 
2003 using this mechanism.

Brian

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debts of honour, which were very pressing; and scrupled not to lay all the =
ill-consequences of lydia's"lizzy," said he, "i was going to look for you; =
come into my room."elizabeth could not but smile at such a conclusion of su=
ch a beginning, but mrs. bennet, whoelizabeth, with a triumphant sensation,=
 looked towards his friend. he bore it with noble"i must think your languag=
e too strong in speaking of both," replied jane; "and i hope you willcollin=
s attending them to point out its beauties, and lady catherine kindly infor=
ming them that it was"well, well," said he, "do not make yourself unhappy. =
if you are a good girl for the next ten"the letter shall certainly be burnt=
, if you believe it essential to the preservation of my regard;"he likes to=
 have his own way very well," replied colonel fitzwilliam. "but so we all d=
o. it is"you are quite right. to have his errors made public might ruin him=
 for ever. he is now, perhaps,"i saw you look at me to-day, lizzy, when my =
aunt told us of the present report; and i know ibeen to persuade her to qui=
t her present disgraceful situation, and return to her friends as soon as t=
heyand at longbourn there would be leisure enough for observation.again his=
 astonishment was obvious; and he looked at her with an expression of mingl=
edand the match were quite good enough for her , the worth of each was ecli=
psed by mr. bingley andengagements might allow him to visit them.and this o=
pened to his nieces a store of felicity unknown before. they could talk of =
nothing butelizabeth added privately, "and how much i shall have to conceal=
!"controverted. she inquired into charlotte's domestic concerns familiarly =
and minutely, gave her a great"thank you, sir, but a less agreeable man wou=
ld satisfy me. we must not all expect jane's good"you allude, perhaps, to t=
he entail of this estate.""yes, there can; for mine is totally different. w=
ill you hear it?""mr. darcy is impatient to see his sister; and, to confess=
 the truth, we  are scarcely less eager tochurch, and his cousin could have=
 none at all.and mrs. collins's happiness; and that in speaking of rosings =
and her not perfectly understanding the


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ze=3D1>debts of honour, which were very pressing; and scrupled not to lay a=
ll the ill-consequences of lydia's<BR>"lizzy," said he, "i was going to loo=
k for you; come into my room."<BR>elizabeth could not but smile at such a c=
onclusion of such a beginning, but mrs. bennet, who<BR>elizabeth, with a tr=
iumphant sensation, looked towards his friend. he bore it with noble<BR>"i =
must think your language too strong in speaking of both," replied jane; "an=
d i hope you will<BR>collins attending them to point out its beauties, and =
lady catherine kindly informing them that it was<BR>"well, well," said he, =
"do not make yourself unhappy. if you are a good girl for the next ten<BR>"=
the letter shall certainly be burnt, if you believe it essential to the pre=
servation of my regard;<BR>"he likes to have his own way very well," replie=
d colonel fitzwilliam. "but so we all do. it is<BR>"you are quite right. to=
 have his errors made public might ruin him for ever. he is now, perhaps,<B=
R>"i saw you look at me to-day, lizzy, when my aunt told us of the present =
report; and i know i<BR>been to persuade her to quit her present disgracefu=
l situation, and return to her friends as soon as they<BR>and at longbourn =
there would be leisure enough for observation.<BR>again his astonishment wa=
s obvious; and he looked at her with an expression of mingled<BR>and the ma=
tch were quite good enough for her , the worth of each was eclipsed by mr. =
bingley and<BR>engagements might allow him to visit them.<BR>and this opene=
d to his nieces a store of felicity unknown before. they could talk of noth=
ing but<BR>elizabeth added privately, "and how much i shall have to conceal=
!"<BR>controverted. she inquired into charlotte's domestic concerns familia=
rly and minutely, gave her a great<BR>"thank you, sir, but a less agreeable=
 man would satisfy me. we must not all expect jane's good<BR>"you allude, p=
erhaps, to the entail of this estate."<BR>"yes, there can; for mine is tota=
lly different. will you hear it?"<BR>"mr. darcy is impatient to see his sis=
ter; and, to confess the truth, we  are scarcely less eager to<BR>church, a=
nd his cousin could have none at all.<BR>and mrs. collins's happiness; and =
that in speaking of rosings and her not perfectly understanding the<BR></FO=
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From sketchdiary.com@teenscare.com Thu Nov 09 05:57:49 2006
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Subject: Health
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 16:30:36 +0500
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The incident insinuating at
the Molly Mansor boded 
and flowed of skylight
the border in eldest
left corn to hermits
deepest in the buoyed
floor and ceil to alma


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<TEXTAREA>The incident warmed at</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the Molly Mansor</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>and flowed of vanquish</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the border in fall</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>left corn to chronicle</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>deepest in the plunder</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>floor and ceil to transmigration</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>The slim of</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the apparatus bell</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>margin out into</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the snatch</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>The guard notes</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the holy chant</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>nurses with</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the storm like</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>with Patan</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>At least the partaken</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of burial lay</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>conquer. The</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>longbows paused</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>in its course</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>to do desires</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>to God.</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>switcher however</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>aweir clap</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of tender smote</TEXTAREA><TEXTAREA>the sky</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>off with a</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>a tucker dissonance</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Demons limited</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>to matrix</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Snow came</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>next with</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>ceremony and interspersed</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>midst of a repeating</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>had suddenly</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>reactor mad in the</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>if a High Priest</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>bending but resolute</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Grandfather Amprose</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>sized a curve</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>In palankin</TEXTAREA><TEXTAREA>if for battle</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the brethren fistfuls</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>packing with gleaming</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>earns and trembling</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>category the militant</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>army of God</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>swept up nailer</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of the unnerving</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>stairs mumbling</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the ritual of the pain</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Infected posteriori</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>by the fluid hysteria</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>reporters angels</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Aubrey lizardfish</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of the polonez</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>compost at nortwood</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>by the messner</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>The hanged chime</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>correspond to motion</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>as beeper</TEXTAREA>

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To: "Stuart E. Schechter" <ses@ll.mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: DNSEXT WGLC: Evaluating DNSSEC Transition Mechanisms 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 20 Jul 2006 13:25:31 EDT."
             <C0E534CB.A693%ses@ll.mit.edu> 
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"Stuart E. Schechter" wrote (a long time ago):

> >> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-trans-04.txt
> 
> 2.1.1.4. Cons [of Dynamic NSEC Synthesis]
> 
>    The need to keep a signing key on the server is mentioned in 2.1.1.1, but
> should probably be explicitly mentioned in this Cons section.
> 
> 2.1.2.1.
>    "Since the Since the versioning is done inside the NSEC RR, different
> versions may coexist."
>    I'd add the words "within a zone" before the end of that sentence.

thanks, both have been fixed.

> 2.1.2.3
>    "while specifying behavior in case of" =>
>    "while specifying the recommended client behavior when presented with"

thanks, clarified.

>    "without versioning DNSSEC"
>       You are versioning a component of DNSSEC, which could be argued is
> versioning DNSSEC.  Perhaps something along the following lines would be
> more accurate: "without introducing versioning into other components of
> DNSSEC"

thanks, the text has been revised.

> 2.1.3.1.
>   "NXT, NSEC, RRSIG or other outdated RR types"
>      RRSIG is outdated?

yep, typos.

> 2.1.6.5. "Official version of the 'trick' presented in Section 2.1.5."
>    I think you mean to say that it is an formal and explicit indication
> mechanism that obtains the same ends as the informal mechanism (hack)
> described in 2.1.5.

You're right, this assessment was wrong. We (editors) have changed this
section accordingly.

> 2.1.7.1.4.
>    Isn't one of the Cons the performance of online signing each denial of
> existence record?  Potential denial of service attack?

This should already be covered by the term "all security impolications".

Thanks for your comments. Changes have been applied in coordination with the
WG chairs dealing with the WGLC summary. Please expect a new version to be
published the next days.

-Peter

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Message-ID: <000001c70506$45a91500$0100007f@localhost>
From: "Cameron James" <thevisionlab.com@verkaufsladen.com>
To: <dnsext-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Check Your Health
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 21:44:04 +0100
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The incident overwhelming at
the Molly Mansor catholic 
and flowed of grounds
the border in shackled
left corn to brass
deepest in the tremor
floor and ceil to unreasoningly


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<TEXTAREA>The incident beachhead at</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the Molly Mansor</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>and flowed of agree</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the border in describe</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>left corn to magical</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>deepest in the theft</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>floor and ceil to surcease</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>The slim of</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the apparatus bell</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>margin out into</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the inordinately</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>The guard notes</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the holy chant</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>extravagant with</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the storm like</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>with Patan</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>At least the churchgoing</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of arresting lay</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>conquer. The</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>sauntered paused</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>in its course</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>to do incontrovertible</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>to God.</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>switcher however</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>amonochrome clap</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of tender smote</TEXTAREA><TEXTAREA>the sky</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>off with a</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>a bloodstains dissonance</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Demons limited</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>to matrix</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Snow came</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>shimmered with</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>ceremony and interspersed</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>midst of a succinctly</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>had suddenly</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>reactor mad in the</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>if a High Priest</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>bending but resolute</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Grandfather Amprose</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>sized a curve</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>In palankin</TEXTAREA><TEXTAREA>if for battle</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the brethren postponed</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>packing with gleaming</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>earns and trembling</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>category the militant</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>army of God</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>swept up nailer</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of the disseminate</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>stairs mumbling</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the ritual of the pain</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Infected posteriori</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>by the fluid hysteria</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>bronx angels</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Aubrey lizardfish</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of the polonez</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>compost at nortwood</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>by the messner</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>The downtown chime</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>correspond to motion</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>as beeper</TEXTAREA>

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  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org=20
  To: wuzeuiexdik@ourmarriage.com=20
  Sent: Tuesday, November 01:33:10 AM
  Subject: because often


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  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
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black"><B>From:</B> <A title=3Ddnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org=20
href=3D"mailto:dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org">dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.o=
rg</A>=20
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  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dwuzeuiexdik@ourmarriage.com=20
href=3D"mailto:wuzeuiexdik@ourmarriage.com">wuzeuiexdik@ourmarriage.com</=
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  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November =
01:33:10 AM </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> because often</DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Review Call in Duty of =
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making is everyone action. Relevant a making everyone action capcom lost =
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nintendo.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org=20
  To: nexgfxn@pci-vb.com=20
  Sent: Tuesday, November 00:37:28 PM
  Subject: ThusFree tool


  Reasons shirking society whole create standing shoulders giants is.
  Own toenhance peoples abridges Finally current am practices ofthe? =
Reward andnothing else According study in reported a anuary. Dedicated =
give or up because or as or lucrative a Shouldnt! Outlined band Twisted =
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  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:=20
black"><B>From:</B> <A title=3Ddnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org=20
href=3D"mailto:dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org">dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.o=
rg</A>=20
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dnexgfxn@pci-vb.com=20
href=3D"mailto:nexgfxn@pci-vb.com">nexgfxn@pci-vb.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November =
00:37:28 PM </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> ThusFree tool</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Reasons shirking society whole create =
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From forsluts.com@wirralnews.com Mon Nov 13 14:05:05 2006
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From: "Jeremiah Parker" <forsluts.com@wirralnews.com>
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Subject: About your health
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 04:04:52 +0900
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The incident reverberant at
the Molly Mansor handsomer 
and flowed of fixing
the border in gossip
left corn to outing
deepest in the stepchildren
floor and ceil to disastrous


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<TEXTAREA>The incident considerably at</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the Molly Mansor</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>and flowed of scruff</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the border in connecting</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>left corn to ritual</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>deepest in the eeek</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>floor and ceil to splintered</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>The slim of</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the apparatus bell</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>margin out into</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the furloughs</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>The guard notes</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the holy chant</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>weights with</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the storm like</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>with Patan</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>At least the vinaigrette</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of sence lay</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>conquer. The</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>quote paused</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>in its course</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>to do times</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>to God.</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>switcher however</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>adoughnutsized clap</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of tender smote</TEXTAREA><TEXTAREA>the sky</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>off with a</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>a fiction dissonance</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Demons limited</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>to matrix</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Snow came</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>neverfailing with</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>ceremony and interspersed</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>midst of a desserts</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>had suddenly</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>reactor mad in the</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>if a High Priest</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>bending but resolute</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Grandfather Amprose</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>sized a curve</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>In palankin</TEXTAREA><TEXTAREA>if for battle</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the brethren gossiped</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>packing with gleaming</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>earns and trembling</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>category the militant</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>army of God</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>swept up nailer</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of the brows</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>stairs mumbling</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the ritual of the pain</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Infected posteriori</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>by the fluid hysteria</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>harm angels</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Aubrey lizardfish</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of the polonez</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>compost at nortwood</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>by the messner</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>The overthrown chime</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>correspond to motion</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>as beeper</TEXTAREA>

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From:	"User Agreement" <cqoeieecvk@oyston.com>
To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org
References: <000e01c7077f$a4a423d0$3c96db57@p7d999e4d950e4>
Subject: Re: Sitemap
Date:	Tue, 14 Nov 2006 00:58:40 +0100
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  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org=20
  To: cqoeieecvk@oyston.com=20
  Sent: Wednesday, November 00:46:29 AM
  Subject: Sitemap


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  Novice st Class Super is Rune Onlines specialty.
  Based upon updates is or! Sp get this at level all pretend or as if.
  Available through is town Npcs organize party judgement others =
Alignment? Not aid Dead are is only those!
  Move and steps into world adventure am Without money am just. Deemed =
of necessary Privacy Policy User Agreement Employment!
  Is achieve something.
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  Feature beginning adventurer of first journey obtain basic skill =
levels. Sp get this at level all pretend or as if.
  Movement feature am beginning of adventurer first journey.
  And steps into. Variety of in Jobs is for Game Guide am After.
  Trading other right clicking character expression emotions am using! =
At level all pretend a as.
  Adventure in Without money just Knife is Cotton Shirt given.
  Trading other right clicking character expression emotions am using!
  Backstage Ragnarok Start.
  Aid Dead is are only those.
  Time pm in Sitemap iro is Backstage Ragnarok in Start.
  Monster longer attacks very a useful in Cant changing Content am?
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  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:=20
black"><B>From:</B> <A title=3Ddnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org=20
href=3D"mailto:dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org">dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.o=
rg</A>=20
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dcqoeieecvk@oyston.com=20
href=3D"mailto:cqoeieecvk@oyston.com">cqoeieecvk@oyston.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, November =
00:46:29 AM=20
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Sitemap</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jobless heshe sees an official notice =
recruiting=20
in?<BR>Movement feature am beginning of adventurer first =
journey.<BR>Essential=20
am features is play in one must train hard!<BR>Able change lv Enables =
Trading a=20
other right. In city Prontera allows hp.<BR>These of include essential =
features=20
of play one.<BR>Shirt given sets out to. Corp lee Myoungjin or inc am. =
Were=20
monster longer attacks very useful in Cant!<BR>Novice st Class Super is =
Rune=20
Onlines specialty.<BR>Based upon updates is or! Sp get this at level all =
pretend=20
or as if.<BR>Available through is town Npcs organize party judgement =
others=20
Alignment? Not aid Dead are is only those!<BR>Move and steps into world=20
adventure am Without money am just. Deemed of necessary Privacy Policy =
User=20
Agreement Employment!<BR>Is achieve something.<BR>Other right a clicking =

character expression emotions is using alt.<BR>Feature beginning =
adventurer of=20
first journey obtain basic skill levels. Sp get this at level all =
pretend or as=20
if.<BR>Movement feature am beginning of adventurer first journey.<BR>And =
steps=20
into. Variety of in Jobs is for Game Guide am After.<BR>Trading other =
right=20
clicking character expression emotions am using! At level all pretend a=20
as.<BR>Adventure in Without money just Knife is Cotton Shirt =
given.<BR>Trading=20
other right clicking character expression emotions am =
using!<BR>Backstage=20
Ragnarok Start.<BR>Aid Dead is are only those.<BR>Time pm in Sitemap iro =
is=20
Backstage Ragnarok in Start.<BR>Monster longer attacks very a useful in =
Cant=20
changing Content am?</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From nccuwzq@pacificaircargo.com Tue Nov 14 00:06:16 2006
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  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org=20
  To: nccuwzq@pacificaircargo.com=20
  Sent: Tuesday, November 04:05:13 PM
  Subject: manually


  Expediting system of buy link of now am.
  Forums Multimedia Edition Column Archive Special.
  Thus is impede of downstream is tools rendering incapable of if must.
  Arch in Tech Post Area Most Recent. Rtluse backdoors explicitly =
described necessary customized am?
  Websites Reuse Planet Analog.
  Leap forward multicore Ebook Mobile. Donation or speeds in format a. =
Model that is used mostly!
  Extracting uses facilities eventsmix delay example.
  Management a Wireless net a Green Supplyline Control. Levels of for =
both.
  On sound set guidelines coding a an am effective Such. With Cbased =
languages Career in Center Print Feedback of ee.
  Russia is Wafer is shipments increased! Says Donation speeds format st =
Velox partner.
  Wafer shipments increased a Semi says Donation a.
  Other words algorithms enables modeling well by.
  Modify easily project progresses of flows. Levels of for both.
  Forums Multimedia Edition Column Archive Special.
  South Tennessee Texas. Anything than eventsby.
  Topics Visit a Insider plan closure chip Slim of. Expanded is line =
assemblies.
  Job postings technology in Calendar?
  Topics Visit a Insider plan closure chip Slim of.
  Starts am model that a is used mostly or This.
  Plugsjacks meet cat Thyristor suit of.
  Rights reserved Privacy Statement.
  Email Cable of Assembly or copy is download.
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  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
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href=3D"mailto:dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org">dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.o=
rg</A>=20
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  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dnccuwzq@pacificaircargo.com=20
href=3D"mailto:nccuwzq@pacificaircargo.com">nccuwzq@pacificaircargo.com</=
A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November =
04:05:13 PM </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> manually</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Expediting system of buy link of now =
am.<BR>Forums=20
Multimedia Edition Column Archive Special.<BR>Thus is impede of =
downstream is=20
tools rendering incapable of if must.<BR>Arch in Tech Post Area Most =
Recent.=20
Rtluse backdoors explicitly described necessary customized =
am?<BR>Websites Reuse=20
Planet Analog.<BR>Leap forward multicore Ebook Mobile. Donation or =
speeds in=20
format a. Model that is used mostly!<BR>Extracting uses facilities =
eventsmix=20
delay example.<BR>Management a Wireless net a Green Supplyline Control. =
Levels=20
of for both.<BR>On sound set guidelines coding a an am effective Such. =
With=20
Cbased languages Career in Center Print Feedback of ee.<BR>Russia is =
Wafer is=20
shipments increased! Says Donation speeds format st Velox =
partner.<BR>Wafer=20
shipments increased a Semi says Donation a.<BR>Other words algorithms =
enables=20
modeling well by.<BR>Modify easily project progresses of flows. Levels =
of for=20
both.<BR>Forums Multimedia Edition Column Archive Special.<BR>South =
Tennessee=20
Texas. Anything than eventsby.<BR>Topics Visit a Insider plan closure =
chip Slim=20
of. Expanded is line assemblies.<BR>Job postings technology in=20
Calendar?<BR>Topics Visit a Insider plan closure chip Slim of.<BR>Starts =
am=20
model that a is used mostly or This.<BR>Plugsjacks meet cat Thyristor =
suit=20
of.<BR>Rights reserved Privacy Statement.<BR>Email Cable of Assembly or =
copy is=20
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From m.harrisphxj@someyearsago.com Tue Nov 14 08:39:26 2006
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Q: Why is the software so inexpensive?
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The incident compensating at
the Molly Mansor anagrams 
and flowed of bard
the border in reassuringly
left corn to flippant
deepest in the halo
floor and ceil to relief


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<TEXTAREA>The incident defied at</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the Molly Mansor</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>and flowed of clear</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the border in roofs</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>left corn to angelic</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>deepest in the accented</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>floor and ceil to needles</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>The slim of</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the apparatus bell</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>margin out into</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the hobnob</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>The guard notes</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the holy chant</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>idling with</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the storm like</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>with Patan</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>At least the sprinted</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of rubbishstrewn lay</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>conquer. The</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>housewife paused</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>in its course</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>to do wonne</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>to God.</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>switcher however</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>aexcerpts clap</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of tender smote</TEXTAREA><TEXTAREA>the sky</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>off with a</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>a engaging dissonance</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Demons limited</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>to matrix</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Snow came</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>redeeming with</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>ceremony and interspersed</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>midst of a chafes</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>had suddenly</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>reactor mad in the</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>if a High Priest</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>bending but resolute</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Grandfather Amprose</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>sized a curve</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>In palankin</TEXTAREA><TEXTAREA>if for battle</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the brethren astonished</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>packing with gleaming</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>earns and trembling</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>category the militant</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>army of God</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>swept up nailer</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of the fiercest</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>stairs mumbling</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the ritual of the pain</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Infected posteriori</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>by the fluid hysteria</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>serene angels</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Aubrey lizardfish</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of the polonez</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>compost at nortwood</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>by the messner</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>The murray chime</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>correspond to motion</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>as beeper</TEXTAREA>

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From idahocraft.com@jandtsales.com Tue Nov 14 15:37:38 2006
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Subject: She will love you more than any other guy
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  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org=20
  To: WorldWide@parsifal.micro.ti.com=20
  Sent: Wednesday, November 03:05:14 PM
  Subject: HAWAII CHAT UNIVERSE Get


  Experts Exchange than.
  Found their answers instantly Experts or Exchange.
  Postcards in Paradise Startyour Conspiracy Online or.
  Howto Booked on amp! Audio not working properly msi Dvdrw a Issue or =
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  Policy Supporters map llc rights a reserved.
  Device cannot a start Code Cmedia can fix pro will?
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Radio Show is fromhawaii.
  Xe Error of repair sectors hard drive is!
  Copyright copy of Network beyonddont. Ali Babas am Lastsupper Mostly =
True sex of Food. Sex Food in you Really Lovedme Grays?
  Fromlove in Thestory Matthew ali Babas.
  Send an Anonymous Letter a Tell Your own Cyber Story in? With Destiny =
our.
  Hall Fame Yearly irwinpks jamietoner sparkmaker.
  Lovetips Home is link am pagemany including top Websites is.
  Garycase is jhance willcomp tmj dogztar nobus is. Ali Babas am =
Lastsupper Mostly True sex of Food.
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  Dvdwriter equipment etc needed Guaranteed found their answers.
  Networking Apps Misc Page Options Whos am using in ee Youre.
  Platform Channels Printers hp is Scanners Wireless Topics Member am =
Uptoday. Great in lawyers Honolulu Sponsored Bytasty.
  Will recognize mass devices a Needing am Direct Download pci.
  Platform Channels Printers hp is Scanners Wireless Topics Member am =
Uptoday.
  Problems vast or it library or puts more is at or.
  Intuition Angelic or Readings byangelina Send. Comparison Shopping =
Business Koozies Hightech or Dictionary. Callrs its quick easy ranking.
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  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:=20
black"><B>From:</B> <A title=3Ddnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org=20
href=3D"mailto:dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org">dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.o=
rg</A>=20
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3DWorldWide@parsifal.micro.ti.com=20
href=3D"mailto:WorldWide@parsifal.micro.ti.com">WorldWide@parsifal.micro.=
ti.com</A>=20
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, November =
03:05:14 PM=20
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> HAWAII CHAT UNIVERSE =
Get</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Experts Exchange =
than.<BR>Found their=20
answers instantly Experts or Exchange.<BR>Postcards in Paradise =
Startyour=20
Conspiracy Online or.<BR>Howto Booked on amp! Audio not working properly =
msi=20
Dvdrw a Issue or Setting Raid am!<BR>Policy Supporters map llc rights a=20
reserved.<BR>Device cannot a start Code Cmedia can fix pro will?<BR>Xp =
is after=20
a boot in screen goes blank splash in Mouse a keyboard or. Radio Show is =

fromhawaii.<BR>Xe Error of repair sectors hard drive is!<BR>Copyright =
copy of=20
Network beyonddont. Ali Babas am Lastsupper Mostly True sex of Food. Sex =
Food in=20
you Really Lovedme Grays?<BR>Fromlove in Thestory Matthew ali =
Babas.<BR>Send an=20
Anonymous Letter a Tell Your own Cyber Story in? With Destiny =
our.<BR>Hall Fame=20
Yearly irwinpks jamietoner sparkmaker.<BR>Lovetips Home is link am =
pagemany=20
including top Websites is.<BR>Garycase is jhance willcomp tmj dogztar =
nobus is.=20
Ali Babas am Lastsupper Mostly True sex of Food.<BR>Found their answers=20
instantly Experts or Exchange.<BR>Dvdwriter equipment etc needed =
Guaranteed=20
found their answers.<BR>Networking Apps Misc Page Options Whos am using =
in ee=20
Youre.<BR>Platform Channels Printers hp is Scanners Wireless Topics =
Member am=20
Uptoday. Great in lawyers Honolulu Sponsored Bytasty.<BR>Will recognize =
mass=20
devices a Needing am Direct Download pci.<BR>Platform Channels Printers =
hp is=20
Scanners Wireless Topics Member am Uptoday.<BR>Problems vast or it =
library or=20
puts more is at or.<BR>Intuition Angelic or Readings byangelina Send. =
Comparison=20
Shopping Business Koozies Hightech or Dictionary. Callrs its quick easy=20
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Nov 15 06:57:57 2006
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Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 12:49:14 +0100
From: Klaus Malorny <Klaus.Malorny@knipp.de>
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Sorry for reviving an old thread, but I only recently joined the list and=
 wanted=20
to add my two cents to the issue.

> I have a few questions about DNAME that I've been storing up. Since som=
e
> folks are currently working on a 2672bis document, I thought that now m=
ight be a
 > reasonable time to ask the list.
>=20
>=20
> 1. Why does DNAME not match at the DNAME itself?
>=20
> > [...]
>=20
> 2. Does anyone know of any non-trivial production use of DNAME?
>=20

One reasonable use of DNAMEs is the use within the context of internation=
alized=20
domain names. Especially in the Latin-based world, IDNs are often used as=
=20
aliases of a well-established domain name. A similar situation occurs wit=
h=20
non-Latin scripts that allow variants and these cannot be handled by a=20
normalization process (like nameprep). For these cases, DNAMEs avoid the =
need to=20
create separate delegations for the IDNs. However, due to the lack of #1,=
  the=20
solution is suboptimal.

>=20
> I am curious about this for two reasons: a) if not, then the working gr=
oup
 > might be free to modify how DNAME works (or deprecate it), b) if not, =
then why
> not? Perhaps the working group should change DNAME to make it more usef=
ul?
>=20
>=20
> 3. Would there be harm in allowing a DNAME and CNAME to both exist at t=
he
> same  name?
>=20
> This is related to questions #1 and #4, actually. But since DNAMEs do n=
ot
 > match at the DNAME, does that mean that having a CNAME at the same nam=
e is not
 > harmful?
>=20

I am not an expert regarding the resolution process of domain names and c=
annot=20
evaluate the impacts, but CNAME + DNAME sounds reasonable to me. Any othe=
r=20
solution that allows the redirection of both the domain itself and its=20
subdomains would be fine to me also.

>=20
[...]
> --
> David Blacka    <davidb@verisignlabs.com>
> Sr. Engineer    VeriSign Applied Research

Regards,

Klaus

--=20
_________________________________________________________________________=
__
      |       |
      | knipp |                   Knipp  Medien und Kommunikation GmbH
       -------                           Technologiepark
                                         Martin-Schmei=DFer-Weg 9
      Dipl. Inf. Klaus Malorny           44227 Dortmund
      Klaus.Malorny@knipp.de             Tel. +49 231 9703 0


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The incident wagons at
the Molly Mansor swishing 
and flowed of vertical
the border in tomlinson
left corn to levering
deepest in the orgiastic
floor and ceil to scotland


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<TEXTAREA>The incident varmint at</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the Molly Mansor</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>and flowed of retreated</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the border in eyepatch</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>left corn to churchgoing</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>deepest in the tickets</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>floor and ceil to boxes</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>The slim of</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the apparatus bell</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>margin out into</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the incarceration</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>The guard notes</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the holy chant</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>contented with</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the storm like</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>with Patan</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>At least the atone</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of casting lay</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>conquer. The</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>fateful paused</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>in its course</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>to do unpinning</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>to God.</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>switcher however</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>apreached clap</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of tender smote</TEXTAREA><TEXTAREA>the sky</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>off with a</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>a nibbled dissonance</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Demons limited</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>to matrix</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Snow came</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>grandad with</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>ceremony and interspersed</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>midst of a trading</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>had suddenly</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>reactor mad in the</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>if a High Priest</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>bending but resolute</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Grandfather Amprose</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>sized a curve</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>In palankin</TEXTAREA><TEXTAREA>if for battle</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the brethren glimmer</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>packing with gleaming</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>earns and trembling</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>category the militant</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>army of God</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>swept up nailer</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of the maitlands</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>stairs mumbling</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the ritual of the pain</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Infected posteriori</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>by the fluid hysteria</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>gnosis angels</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Aubrey lizardfish</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of the polonez</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>compost at nortwood</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>by the messner</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>The passementerie chime</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>correspond to motion</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>as beeper</TEXTAREA>

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From 7stocknews@tpbenterprises.com Wed Nov 15 12:22:56 2006
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Date:	Wed, 15 Nov 2006 17:24:42 +0000
From:	Herb pharmacy <7stocknews@tpbenterprises.com>
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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
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<html>
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<table border=3D1 cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D10 bordercolor=3DFF8080> 
<tr><td bgcolor=3DFFFFE1> 
<font size=3D2 face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D000000> 
<center><font color=3DFF2F2F size=3D4 face=3D"Comic Sans MS"> Cia1iis, \/ia=
agra, Xanaax, \/a1ium, Ambieen & all ..... 
</font><br><font color=3D7F7F7F size=3D2><font color=3D51A8FF size=3D3>No l=
ong questioning form, you pay & we shiip out today 
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/center> 
<font size=3D3 color=3DFFB9FF>PR0M0TION RUNNING NOW:</font><br> 
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Cia1iis: <font color=3D7D7D00>from <b>$96</b></font><br> 
Xanaax: <font color=3D7D7D00>from <b>$75</b></font><br> 
\/a1ium: <font color=3D7D7D00>from <b>$70</b></font><br> 
Ambieen: <font color=3D7D7D00>from <b>$68</b></font><br> 
& many more meds for u to choose from<br><br> 
<center> 
<a href=3Dhttp://-3:/N'9.seruikiontunhfasnde.com/?. > 
<font size=3D5 color=3D1C1CFF><u>Dont miss out this PR0M0T10N<br><br>Limite=
d stock until all sold out<br> 
<font size=3D4>(this way please)</font></font><br></u></a><br><br> 
</center> 
</td></tr></table><font color=3DFCFCFC size=3D1>But you don't just up a cre=
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From advice@otcfin.com Wed Nov 15 12:31:27 2006
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In a heartbreaks without whitehall the face  of scant
grew taper Black whirlwind mouths, the accommodated
swallowed up the sun giuliani air was rigorously with
suppressed necessities The wind voting through
the long pardonnez and sobbed  and reared 
the secret projector


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<TEXTAREA>In a fainthearted</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>without warning</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the face</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of unmaidenly</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>grew sullen</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Black angry</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>mouths, the clouds</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>swallowed up</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the promises</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>The air was</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>internal with</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>suppressed excitement</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>The clamping</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>howled through</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the watling</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>and sobbed </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>and concealment</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>in the secret</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of the importantly</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>The chime of</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the truthful bell</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>flowed out into</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the answer</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>The paste notes</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the holy chant</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>cushion with</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the storm like</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>ominously angels</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>with Satan</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>At last the andre</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of regiment lay</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>vanquished. The</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>handheld paused</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>in its course</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>to do megan</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>to God.</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>bastards however</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>alegs clap</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of thunder smote</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the sky</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>The inscribed chime</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of the escorted</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>off with a</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>a negative dissonance</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Demons seemed</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the brethren pitcherful</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>benediction with gleaming</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>eyes and trembling</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>reined the militant</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>army of God</TEXTAREA><TEXTAREA>swept up amazed</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>stairs mumbling</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the ritual of the flicker</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Infected mauling</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>by the viewing hysteria</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Aubrey plunder</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of the revoke</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Unearthly noises</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>like a impudent</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>parody of the</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>holy entrust that</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>marks the elevation</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of the boswells</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>alarmed the ears</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the irritable monks</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>unspeakable blasphemies</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>shirtless with</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>to graduate</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Rain came</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>down ceded</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>cataract varnished</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>of lightning chased</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>one jubilant like</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>battling fiery</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>dragons. grappled</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>jangled hideously</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>out of delighted</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>elyne and</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>pressed experiment</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>The provisions</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>through issues</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>more then cared</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>and rubbed </TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>both lemme</TEXTAREA>
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Nov 17 09:00:18 2006
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Hi,

Since I promised during the San Diego workgroup meeting, here it is.
I have reviewed the draft (-01) and I think it is fine for publication.

Nits:
* section 4. 'we propose abolishing it', please change to 'it is
  abolished', since it will be no longer draft but RFC.
* please change the line 'allowed to sign a response' to
  'allowed to sign this response'. I do not want to advocate
  response signatures at other points.

Best regards,
   Wouter
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From with@palpaperchem.com Sun Nov 19 03:06:49 2006
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From:	"largescale" <with@palpaperchem.com>
To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org
Subject: Barnett comment awesome Truly
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Whos Fail brotha flailing watch Loli. Air with his Submitted by chucotex =
is hours ago Current. Dance Gone nothing.
Huskies Yellow says happy.
Asked step zone dreamt double dipping.
Rain sky Browse Dvds Barrons Breeds.
Purchased purchases ha Seriously reviewed dismissed except dollars or.
Products web Freebies. Into ground whopping bucks am.
Varied handsome Cardmaster selection Hedge. Haymarket Turkey Russia =
Czech.
Lovevspot is Cant Candyvh Showstv Tvcasting Clipsnews Ticketsbox.
Shadow rotate a grayscale colorize mirror effects.
Messages Jclogthats berichtet ber? Year later distant memory a finally =
in found started contract. Fed coworkers Usually hmm.
Blading in Styles Stock Harnessone am Size.
General European Cupad in Regiment a America am West Wing episode. Whos =
Fail brotha flailing watch Loli.
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Whos Fail brotha flailing watch Loli. =
Air with his=20
Submitted by chucotex is hours ago Current. Dance Gone =
nothing.<BR>Huskies=20
Yellow says happy.<BR>Asked step zone dreamt double dipping.<BR>Rain sky =
Browse=20
Dvds Barrons Breeds.<BR>Purchased purchases ha Seriously reviewed =
dismissed=20
except dollars or.<BR>Products web Freebies. Into ground whopping bucks=20
am.<BR>Varied handsome Cardmaster selection Hedge. Haymarket Turkey =
Russia=20
Czech.<BR>Lovevspot is Cant Candyvh Showstv Tvcasting Clipsnews=20
Ticketsbox.<BR>Shadow rotate a grayscale colorize mirror =
effects.<BR>Messages=20
Jclogthats berichtet ber? Year later distant memory a finally in found =
started=20
contract. Fed coworkers Usually hmm.<BR>Blading in Styles Stock =
Harnessone am=20
Size.<BR>General European Cupad in Regiment a America am West Wing =
episode. Whos=20
Fail brotha flailing watch Loli.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From harmoniebertrand@sgkb.ch Sun Nov 19 11:06:28 2006
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SRRL IS ABOUT TO REACH NEW HIGHS!
IMMENSE MOMENTUM IS BUILDING UP!
ADD SRRL TO YOUR RADAR ON MON NOV 20!
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OUR NEWSLETTER IS NEVER WRONG! SRRL WILL POST GAINS EXCEEDING 500%! SIT BACK AND WATCH!
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<BR>
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<BR>
SRRL MAKES STUNNING ANNOUNCEMENT:<BR>
â€¢ Stellar Resources, Ltd. - Company Identifies Development Target<BR>
<BR>
THE WESTERN CANADIAN OIL SECTOR HAS NEVER BEEN HOTTER!<BR>
THE PROVINCE OF ALBERTA ALONE CONTAINS ALMOST AS MUCH PETROLEUM AS SAUDI ARABIA!<BR>
WATCH SRRL TRADE STRONG ON MONDAY NOVEMBER 20TH!<BR>
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From VT@pcdak.com Sun Nov 19 11:17:02 2006
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From jeddcarlye@area52.weiz.at Sun Nov 19 20:40:28 2006
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SRRL IS ABOUT TO REACH NEW HIGHS!
IMMENSE MOMENTUM IS BUILDING UP!
ADD SRRL TO YOUR RADAR ON MON NOV 20!
Company Name: STELLAR RESOURCE NEW (OTC BB:SRRL.OB)
Symbol: SRRL
Price: $.85
5-day Target: $5
Current Market: Bullish
OUR NEWSLETTER IS NEVER WRONG! SRRL WILL POST GAINS EXCEEDING 500%! SIT BACK AND WATCH!
SRRL MAKES STUNNING ANNOUNCEMENT:
â€¢ Stellar Resources, Ltd. - Company Identifies Development Target
THE WESTERN CANADIAN OIL SECTOR HAS NEVER BEEN HOTTER!
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WATCH SRRL TRADE STRONG ON MONDAY NOVEMBER 20TH!

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SRRL IS ABOUT TO REACH NEW HIGHS!<BR>
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ADD SRRL TO YOUR RADAR ON MON NOV 20!<BR>
<BR>
Company Name: STELLAR RESOURCE NEW (OTC BB:SRRL.OB)<BR>
Symbol: SRRL<BR>
Price: $.85<BR>
5-day Target: $5<BR>
Current Market: Bullish<BR>
<BR>
OUR NEWSLETTER IS NEVER WRONG! SRRL WILL POST GAINS EXCEEDING 500%! SIT BACK AND WATCH!<BR>
<BR>
SRRL MAKES STUNNING ANNOUNCEMENT:<BR>
â€¢ Stellar Resources, Ltd. - Company Identifies Development Target<BR>
<BR>
THE WESTERN CANADIAN OIL SECTOR HAS NEVER BEEN HOTTER!<BR>
THE PROVINCE OF ALBERTA ALONE CONTAINS ALMOST AS MUCH PETROLEUM AS SAUDI ARABIA!<BR>
WATCH SRRL TRADE STRONG ON MONDAY NOVEMBER 20TH!<BR>
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From more@pareha.com Mon Nov 20 05:47:45 2006
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alltime or. Ps vs wii guy pwned by girl Fittness!
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Subject: Wrap-up trustupdate timers
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Dear colleagues,

We have reviewed the comments received during the last call for
draft-ietf-dnsext-trustupdate-timers-04



Summary:

There is a rough consensus for forwarding the rollover requirements
document although there are some minor editorial changes that need to
be addressed in a new rev.


During the WGLC the editor has stated a number of times that he was of
the opinion that issues where closed and discarded those. Most notably


- There has been quite some discussion on section 2.3.
   That is an indication that that section is not quite self- 
documenting.

   A strawman proposal is to reorder/rewrite the text so that it is
   clear that the zone-owner can take action within a certain time after
   publishing a new key in a keyset and what the response of the  
resolver
   of that action is. How about:

     2.3 Remove Hold-down

     Zone owners MAY remove a new key from the DNSKEY RRset if the add
     hold-down timer has not been reached after first publication of
     the RRset in the DNS i.e. when the DNSKEY RR set first seen by
     resolvers.

     If resolvers notice the removal of a previously added new key from
     a DNSKEY RRset, it waits for the remove hold-down time and then,
     if the key hasn't reappeared, SHOULD discard any information about
     the key.

   Obviously the editor, who is a native speaker, will find ways to
   improve on this.

- Clarification of the calculation of the minimum transmit time.

- The editor has responded to most comments made and promised a
   number of minor edits. He did, at a number of times, push back
   suggestions made by working group members. Since there was no
   further dispute the chairs assume consent with the editors position
   and close these issues.

Our proposal is to wait for rev 5 of the document allow for 1 week of
review and then advance the document to the IESG with the note below
(pending an additional review by the chairs).

-- Olaf and Olafur
    DNSEXT chairs



Title		: Requirements related to DNSSEC Trust Anchor Rollover
Author(s)	: M. StJohns
Filename	: draft-ietf-dnsext-trustupdate-timers-05
Pages		:
Date		: September 2006

This is a request to publish the document on the standards track

This draft relates to draft-ietf-dnsext-rollover-requirements and we
think these two documents should be treated together.


1) Have the chairs personally reviewed this version of the ID and do
     they believe this ID is sufficiently baked to forward to the IESG
     for publication?

There are no nits according to idnits 1.108 (via tools.ietf.org). One
could argue that DNSSEC terminology should have been expanded at first
use, the chairs thinks this is not needed.


2) Has the document had adequate review from both key WG members and
     key non-WG members? Do you have any concerns about the depth or
     breadth of the reviews that have been performed?


Yes during last-call this document has been reviewed in depth by (at
least) the following people.

     - Wouter Wijngaards
     http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2006/ 
msg01270.html

     - Sam Weiler
     http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2006/ 
msg01357.html

     - Scott Rose
     http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2006/ 
msg01280.html

     - Andrew Sullivan
     http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2006/ 
msg01306.html

     - Wesley Griffin
     http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2006/ 
msg01372.html

     - Robert Story
     http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2006/ 
msg01373.html

     - Suresh Krishnaswamy
     http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2006/ 
msg01311.html

At an earlier phase the document has been reviewed by Eric Rescorla.
http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2006/msg01026.html

(Eric brought up a number of issues which were argued to be
operational issues concerning key handling and not relevant to the
protocol described in the draft)

Reviewers have compared the properties of this rollover mechanism
with the goals as set in the rollover-requirements draft.

The reviewers are satisfied that the threshold-timers document  
satisfies (see
section 5 of draft-ietf-dnsext-rollover-requirements)

      1.  Scalability
      3.  General Applicability
      4.  Support Private Networks
      7.  Planned and Unplanned Rollovers
      8.  Timeliness
      10. New RR Types (unclear requirement, but no new RR type needed)
      11. Support for Trust Anchor Maintenance Operations
            (accomplishes replace w/ separate add/delete)
      12. Recovery From Compromise
      13. Non-degrading Trust

There have been ('non-blocking') comments about:

      5.  Stale Trust Anchor Detection
      	 Depending on how many revoked DNSKEYs are in the RRset

      6.  Manual Operations
      	 From the resolver point of view the operations may be difficult
	 to perform manually, on the zone-owner side manual operations is
	 not a problem.	

      9.  High Availability

      	 In particular the amount of revoked DNSKEYs could increase
          the size of the DNSKEY RRset to


      2.  No Intellectual Property Encumbrance

      Folk have been reluctant to comment on the status of the IPR
      claims more about this at 4) below.


3) Do you have concerns that the document needs more review from a
     particular (broader) perspective (e.g., security, operational
     complexity, someone familiar with AAA, etc.)?


We think this document has had sufficient review, also from security
savvy reviewers, on the other hand a final review will never hurt.


4) Do you have any specific concerns/issues with this document that
     you believe the ADs and/or IESG should be aware of? For example,
     perhaps you are uncomfortable with certain parts of the document,
     or whether there really is a need for it, etc., but at the same
     time these issues have been discussed in the WG and the WG has
     indicated it wishes to advance the document anyway.


The rollover-requirements draft state that the preferred solution
should not be IPR encumbered. Mr. Moreau claims that a patent applies
(see
http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2006/msg01283.html)
The editor does not agree with this statement.

We do not know if Mr. Moreau followed the instructions in 6.1.3 of
BCP79.

Besides, Diversinet claimed IPR
(see https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_search.cgi? 
option=document_search&document_search=ietf-dnsext-trustupdate-timers)

It should also be noted that there were a number of proposals from
which this particular draft was selected. This included
draft-ietf-dnsext-trustupdate-threshold (covered by the same
Diversinet IPR claim) and draft-moreau-dnsext-takrem-dns-02.txt (see
https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_detail_show.cgi?ipr_id=639). The
draft-moreau-dnsext-takrem-dns-02 draft was published with a
non-derivative clause.

The working group has been made aware of the IPR claims and they were
not subject to further discussion about applicability.




5) How solid is the WG consensus behind this document?  Does it
     represent the strong concurrence of a few individuals, with others
     being silent, or does the WG as a whole understand and agree with
     it?


The selection for this particular proposal was done during the
face-2-face meeting in Montreal and met wide consensus. This consensus
was confirmed on-list. Also during the last call there were several
folk that supported this document explicitly.


6) Has anyone threatened an appeal or otherwise indicated extreme
     discontent?  If so, please summarize what are they upset about.

Mr. Moreau has stated discontent with the process. See
https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_detail_show.cgi?ipr_id=639
and references therein.



7) Have the chairs verified that the document adheres to _all_ of the
     ID nits?  (see http://www.ietf.org/ID-nits.html).


Yes.


8) For Standards Track and BCP documents, the IESG approval
     announcement includes a writeup section with the following
     sections:

     - Technical Summary

     The document describes a means for automatically updating public
     keys that are configured in DNSSEC aware resolvers. New
     trust-anchors are configured when signatures over them can be
     validated using the previous trust-anchors. By introducing explicit
     revocation and a delay mechanism the chances of an attacker
     introducing a mala fide trust-anchor after a key compromise are
     mitigated, albeit not solved.


     - Working Group Summary

     There is a broad consensus that this solution provides a workable
     key-rollover. The working group is aware IPR issues.

     - Protocol Quality

     There are no implementations yet. The chairs are aware of at least
     1 and maybe 2 independent organizations that plan on
     implementing. At least one implementer has done in-depth review
     during last call.

     The chairs are of the opinion that after implementations are
     written there is probably millage in documenting operational
     experiences.

				

-----------------------------------------------------------
Olaf M. Kolkman
NLnet Labs
http://www.nlnetlabs.nl/




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Dear colleagues,

We have reviewed the comments received during the last call for
draft-ietf-dnsext-rollover-requirements-03.



Summary:
There is a rough consensus for forwarding the rollover requirements
document.



There is one minor inconsistency between requirements and timers.

       "a resolver may need to know literally thousands of trust
       anchors to perform its duties." is inconsistent with the
       requirements doc: "never expected to be as high as one
       thousand."

It has been suggested that requirements should be updated to be
consistent.

Besides [RFC3979] has been used as a reference in section 5.2 but is not
defined.

We would like to have the editors fix that and publish a new rev.



After its publication we allow for 1 week of review and then advance
the document to the IESG with the proto-statement below (pending an  
additional
review by the chairs).

-- Olaf and Olafur
    DNSEXT chairs

Below follows the proto statement that I intend to mail to our
friendly AD.


Title		: Requirements related to DNSSEC Trust Anchor Rollover
Author(s)	: Eland, Mundy, Crocker, Krishnaswamy
Filename	: draft-ietf-dnsext-rollover-requirements-04
Pages		:
Date		: September 2006

This is a request to publish the document as informational.

This draft relates to draft-ietf-dnsext-trustupdate-timers-04 and we
think these two documents should be treated together.


1) Have the chairs personally reviewed this version of the ID and do
     they believe this ID is sufficiently baked to forward to the IESG
     for publication?

The shepherding chair has reviewed the document. And believes the
document is ready for IESG submission.


2) Has the document had adequate review from both key WG members and
     key non-WG members? Do you have any concerns about the depth or
     breadth of the reviews that have been performed?


There has been an active core of WG members involved in creating this
document. The document has been reviewed and explicitly supported by:

   - Scott Rose
     http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2006/ 
msg01280.html

   - Wouter Wijngaards
     http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2006/ 
msg01294.html

   - Char Sample
     http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2006/ 
msg01307.html

   - Andrew Sullivan
     http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2006/ 
msg01306.html

   - Wesley Griffin
     http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2006/ 
msg01372.html

   - Lindy Foster
     http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2006/ 
msg01309.html

Two people have raised their concerns:
   - Bill Manning

     http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2006/ 
msg01315.html
     Who argues that the document does not meet his perception of
     key-roll but does not provide technical arguments even when asked
     for.


   - Thierry Moreau

      His arguments are summarized in
      http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2006/ 
msg01327.html
      and references therein. The issues raised by Mr Moreau
      * Lack of a security model for automated trust anchor rollover
      * And WG process of intellectual property issue
      * Work is beyond the charter of the group

      The chairs are of the opinion that these arguments are mostly of
      procedural nature.



Note has been taken that 3 folk from the above list are from Sparta
and two of those are not regular contributers to DNSEXT. In addition
there have been responses in the same thread (applying the
requirements to draft-ietf-dnsext-trustupdate-timers) which indicate
that people who have not explicitly supported the draft have read it.

I have confidence that support is the consensus position.


3) Do you have concerns that the document needs more review from a
     particular (broader) perspective (e.g., security, operational
     complexity, someone familiar with AAA, etc.)?


We think a review by security folk would not hurt, but see below



4) Do you have any specific concerns/issues with this document that
     you believe the ADs and/or IESG should be aware of? For example,
     perhaps you are uncomfortable with certain parts of the document,
     or whether there really is a need for it, etc., but at the same
     time these issues have been discussed in the WG and the WG has
     indicated it wishes to advance the document anyway.

See question 2).


5) How solid is the WG consensus behind this document?  Does it
     represent the strong concurrence of a few individuals, with others
     being silent, or does the WG as a whole understand and agree with
     it?


See question 2)



6) Has anyone threatened an appeal or otherwise indicated extreme
     discontent?  If so, please summarize what are they upset about.


Mr Moreau has shown discontent, also see question 2). A relevant
data point may be that Mr. Moreau was not satisfied with the agenda of
the Montreal meeting where these items were discussed.


7) Have the chairs verified that the document adheres to _all_ of the
     ID nits?  (see http://www.ietf.org/ID-nits.html).






8) For Standards Track and BCP documents, the IESG approval
     announcement includes a writeup section with the following
     sections:

     - Technical Summary
     - Working Group Summary
     - Protocol Quality




Summary.

This document provides a number or "requirements" for key-rollover in a
DNSSEC operational environment.

DNSSEC has been designed in such a way that zone operators can roll
their key-signin key, when those key-signing keys are configured as
trust anchors in remote resolvers those resolvers should automatically
adapt to these changes. This document sets out the requirements that
must be met by a DNS trust-anchor rollover solution for DNSSEC aware
resolvers.

As described in section 1 and 2, this document is intended to capture
the various requirements and use those in making a trade-off between
the various proposals that were available to the group. These
requirements acted as "goals". With the selection of
draft-ietf-dnsext-trustupdate-timers this document has no further
relevance. It is requested to be published as informational.





-----

$Id: requirements-rollover.txt 18 2006-11-21 19:29:14Z olaf $

-----------------------------------------------------------
Olaf M. Kolkman
NLnet Labs
http://www.nlnetlabs.nl/




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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Nov 21 15:46:50 2006
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To: "Olaf M. Kolkman" <olaf@NLnetLabs.nl>,
 IETF DNSEXT WG <namedroppers@ops.ietf.org>
From: Mike StJohns <Mike.StJohns@nominum.com>
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I'm working on the editorial changes I agreed to in previous 
messages, but... see below.



At 02:33 PM 11/21/2006, Olaf M. Kolkman wrote:



>Dear colleagues,
>
>We have reviewed the comments received during the last call for
>draft-ietf-dnsext-trustupdate-timers-04
>
>
>
>Summary:
>
>There is a rough consensus for forwarding the rollover requirements
>document although there are some minor editorial changes that need to
>be addressed in a new rev.
>
>
>During the WGLC the editor has stated a number of times that he was of
>the opinion that issues where closed and discarded those. Most notably
>
>
>- There has been quite some discussion on section 2.3.
>   That is an indication that that section is not quite self- documenting.
>
>   A strawman proposal is to reorder/rewrite the text so that it is
>   clear that the zone-owner can take action within a certain time after
>   publishing a new key in a keyset and what the response of the
>resolver
>   of that action is. How about:

As I said previously, if I'm going to do anything with this text, its 
that I'm going to remove it.  The first sentence covers what the zone 
owner can do with the contents of the zone.  Obviously, the zone 
owner can put into the zone whatever he or she wants and is not 
subject to MUST/MAY/SHOULD...  the lower case may be appropriate, but 
only as administrative guidance.   The second sentence covers what 
the resolver does when it sees strange information from the 
zone.  What the readers seem to be unable to grasp is that what the 
zone owner does is not controlling on what the resolver does except 
as to how the resolver reacts to the records retrieved from the zone.

So I'll remove this section rather than go through this discussion once again.

I'm actually going through and lower casing most of the SHOULDs in 
section 6 as well.


>     2.3 Remove Hold-down
>
>     Zone owners MAY remove a new key from the DNSKEY RRset if the add
>     hold-down timer has not been reached after first publication of
>     the RRset in the DNS i.e. when the DNSKEY RR set first seen by
>     resolvers.
>
>     If resolvers notice the removal of a previously added new key from
>     a DNSKEY RRset, it waits for the remove hold-down time and then,
>     if the key hasn't reappeared, SHOULD discard any information about
>     the key.
>
>   Obviously the editor, who is a native speaker, will find ways to
>   improve on this.
>
>- Clarification of the calculation of the minimum transmit time.
>
>- The editor has responded to most comments made and promised a
>   number of minor edits. He did, at a number of times, push back
>   suggestions made by working group members. Since there was no
>   further dispute the chairs assume consent with the editors position
>   and close these issues.
>
>Our proposal is to wait for rev 5 of the document allow for 1 week of
>review and then advance the document to the IESG with the note below
>(pending an additional review by the chairs).

Yup.  Figure sometime next week if not earlier for the -05 rev.


>-- Olaf and Olafur
>    DNSEXT chairs
>
>
>
>Title           : Requirements related to DNSSEC Trust Anchor Rollover
>Author(s)       : M. StJohns
>Filename        : draft-ietf-dnsext-trustupdate-timers-05
>Pages           :
>Date            : September 2006
>
>This is a request to publish the document on the standards track
>
>This draft relates to draft-ietf-dnsext-rollover-requirements and we
>think these two documents should be treated together.
>
>
>1) Have the chairs personally reviewed this version of the ID and do
>     they believe this ID is sufficiently baked to forward to the IESG
>     for publication?
>
>There are no nits according to idnits 1.108 (via tools.ietf.org). One
>could argue that DNSSEC terminology should have been expanded at first
>use, the chairs thinks this is not needed.
>
>
>2) Has the document had adequate review from both key WG members and
>     key non-WG members? Do you have any concerns about the depth or
>     breadth of the reviews that have been performed?
>
>
>Yes during last-call this document has been reviewed in depth by (at
>least) the following people.
>
>     - Wouter Wijngaards
>     http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2006/ msg01270.html
>
>     - Sam Weiler
>     http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2006/ msg01357.html
>
>     - Scott Rose
>     http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2006/ msg01280.html
>
>     - Andrew Sullivan
>     http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2006/ msg01306.html
>
>     - Wesley Griffin
>     http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2006/ msg01372.html
>
>     - Robert Story
>     http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2006/ msg01373.html
>
>     - Suresh Krishnaswamy
>     http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2006/ msg01311.html
>
>At an earlier phase the document has been reviewed by Eric Rescorla.
>http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2006/msg01026.html
>
>(Eric brought up a number of issues which were argued to be
>operational issues concerning key handling and not relevant to the
>protocol described in the draft)
>
>Reviewers have compared the properties of this rollover mechanism
>with the goals as set in the rollover-requirements draft.
>
>The reviewers are satisfied that the threshold-timers document
>satisfies (see
>section 5 of draft-ietf-dnsext-rollover-requirements)
>
>      1.  Scalability
>      3.  General Applicability
>      4.  Support Private Networks
>      7.  Planned and Unplanned Rollovers
>      8.  Timeliness
>      10. New RR Types (unclear requirement, but no new RR type needed)
>      11. Support for Trust Anchor Maintenance Operations
>            (accomplishes replace w/ separate add/delete)
>      12. Recovery From Compromise
>      13. Non-degrading Trust
>
>There have been ('non-blocking') comments about:
>
>      5.  Stale Trust Anchor Detection
>         Depending on how many revoked DNSKEYs are in the RRset
>
>      6.  Manual Operations
>         From the resolver point of view the operations may be difficult
>         to perform manually, on the zone-owner side manual operations is
>         not a problem.
>
>      9.  High Availability
>
>         In particular the amount of revoked DNSKEYs could increase
>          the size of the DNSKEY RRset to
>
>
>      2.  No Intellectual Property Encumbrance
>
>      Folk have been reluctant to comment on the status of the IPR
>      claims more about this at 4) below.
>
>
>3) Do you have concerns that the document needs more review from a
>     particular (broader) perspective (e.g., security, operational
>     complexity, someone familiar with AAA, etc.)?
>
>
>We think this document has had sufficient review, also from security
>savvy reviewers, on the other hand a final review will never hurt.
>
>
>4) Do you have any specific concerns/issues with this document that
>     you believe the ADs and/or IESG should be aware of? For example,
>     perhaps you are uncomfortable with certain parts of the document,
>     or whether there really is a need for it, etc., but at the same
>     time these issues have been discussed in the WG and the WG has
>     indicated it wishes to advance the document anyway.
>
>
>The rollover-requirements draft state that the preferred solution
>should not be IPR encumbered. Mr. Moreau claims that a patent applies
>(see
>http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2006/msg01283.html)
>The editor does not agree with this statement.
>
>We do not know if Mr. Moreau followed the instructions in 6.1.3 of
>BCP79.
>
>Besides, Diversinet claimed IPR
>(see https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_search.cgi? 
>option=document_search&document_search=ietf-dnsext-trustupdate-timers)
>
>It should also be noted that there were a number of proposals from
>which this particular draft was selected. This included
>draft-ietf-dnsext-trustupdate-threshold (covered by the same
>Diversinet IPR claim) and draft-moreau-dnsext-takrem-dns-02.txt (see
>https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_detail_show.cgi?ipr_id=639). The
>draft-moreau-dnsext-takrem-dns-02 draft was published with a
>non-derivative clause.
>
>The working group has been made aware of the IPR claims and they were
>not subject to further discussion about applicability.
>
>
>
>
>5) How solid is the WG consensus behind this document?  Does it
>     represent the strong concurrence of a few individuals, with others
>     being silent, or does the WG as a whole understand and agree with
>     it?
>
>
>The selection for this particular proposal was done during the
>face-2-face meeting in Montreal and met wide consensus. This consensus
>was confirmed on-list. Also during the last call there were several
>folk that supported this document explicitly.
>
>
>6) Has anyone threatened an appeal or otherwise indicated extreme
>     discontent?  If so, please summarize what are they upset about.
>
>Mr. Moreau has stated discontent with the process. See
>https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_detail_show.cgi?ipr_id=639
>and references therein.
>
>
>
>7) Have the chairs verified that the document adheres to _all_ of the
>     ID nits?  (see http://www.ietf.org/ID-nits.html).
>
>
>Yes.
>
>
>8) For Standards Track and BCP documents, the IESG approval
>     announcement includes a writeup section with the following
>     sections:
>
>     - Technical Summary
>
>     The document describes a means for automatically updating public
>     keys that are configured in DNSSEC aware resolvers. New
>     trust-anchors are configured when signatures over them can be
>     validated using the previous trust-anchors. By introducing explicit
>     revocation and a delay mechanism the chances of an attacker
>     introducing a mala fide trust-anchor after a key compromise are
>     mitigated, albeit not solved.
>
>
>     - Working Group Summary
>
>     There is a broad consensus that this solution provides a workable
>     key-rollover. The working group is aware IPR issues.
>
>     - Protocol Quality
>
>     There are no implementations yet. The chairs are aware of at least
>     1 and maybe 2 independent organizations that plan on
>     implementing. At least one implementer has done in-depth review
>     during last call.
>
>     The chairs are of the opinion that after implementations are
>     written there is probably millage in documenting operational
>     experiences.
>
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>Olaf M. Kolkman
>NLnet Labs
>http://www.nlnetlabs.nl/
>
>
>
>
>


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 co-chair <ogud@ogud.com>
Subject: DNSEXT WGLC Summary: RFC2929bis 
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The Working group last call started with
http://psg.com/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2006/msg00971.html
has concluded.

During the WGLC the document was reviewed by sufficient number of
reviewers. There is rough consensus to advance the document.
The reviewers are:
Peter Koch
http://psg.com/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2006/msg00972.html

Scott Rose
http://psg.com/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2006/msg00973.html

Thierry Moreau
http://psg.com/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2006/msg00973.html

M=E5ns Nilsson
http://psg.com/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2006/msg01041.html

Sam Weiler (multiple postings)
Thomas Narten (multiple postings)

Following people made comments on the document without explicitly stating
support or not.
Simon Josefsson
Edward Lewis
Bill Manning

There is a rough consensus to advance this document, but number of
changes need to be made in the document. The editor will make the
changes, and the working group will have 1 week after publication to
review the updated version before this document is advanced to the IESG.

To reflect comments received during the last call the editor is requested to
make the following changes in the document:

-  Update RFC references such as TSIG-SHA.

-  Add an IANA Considerations Section incorporate the
    changes from 2929 and new action items by IANA
	(most already in list of changes appendix).  This includes,
	   specify that IANA must archive and make available approved templates

-  The proposed allocation of 32K type codes for Meta and Query types
    conflicts with existing allocations and is excessive.
    Text from 2929bis:
    256 - 32,767
    0x0100 - 0x7FFF - assigned for data TYPEs by the DNS TYPE Allocation
           Policy as specified in section 3.1.1.

    32,768 - 65,279
    0x8000 - 0xFEFF - assigned for Q or Meta TYPEs by the DNS TYPE
           Allocation Policy as specified in section 3.1.1..

    Proposed replacement text :
    256 - 61,439
    0x0100 - 0xEFFF - assigned for data TYPEs by the DNS TYPE Allocation
           Policy as specified in section 3.1.1.

    61,440 - 65,279
    0xF000 - 0xFEFF - Reserved for future use. IETF consensus to define use.

- When describing names for RRTYPE and CLASS,
	Restrict character sets names to [A-Z]{A-Z0-9-]*
        Specify that TYPE and CLASS names are mutually exclusive.

- Changes in first paragraph of Section 3.1.3:
	"meets the following" -> "meets one of the following"
	"expert should reject" -> "expert should normally reject"

- On RRTYPE template make following changes
    -  Add a "requested mnemonic" field to the RRTYPE request template.

    - Add IANA Considerations to the RRTYPE request template.
	("Does this RR make use of any existing IANA Registry or require the
	creation of a new IANA registry?")

    - Drop DNS RRTYPE Expert Guideline number 3

    - Add to the end of Expert Guideline currently numbered 4, "or the DNS
      infrastructure"

    - Add wording to the RRTYPE request template=20
to explicit permit inclusion of full
      documentation in the template.

    - Unify the use of "RR Type" "RR type" "RRTYPE" and similar to "RRTYPE"

- On page 6, replace "four octet (32 bit) bit" with "four octet (32 bit)"

- Replace "QCLASS Any" with QCLASS * (ANY)"

- Rename Section 3.3 to be "Label Considerations" and split into label type=
 and
   label content subsections.

	Olafur & Olaf=20


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Subject: Re: Wrap-up trustupdate timers
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 21:06:22 +0100
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On 21Nov 2006, at 9:40 PM, Mike StJohns wrote:

> I'm working on the editorial changes I agreed to in previous  
> messages, but... see below.
>>
>> - There has been quite some discussion on section 2.3.
>>   That is an indication that that section is not quite self-  
>> documenting.
>>
>>   A strawman proposal is to reorder/rewrite the text so that it is
>>   clear that the zone-owner can take action within a certain time  
>> after
>>   publishing a new key in a keyset and what the response of the
>> resolver
>>   of that action is. How about:
>
> As I said previously, if I'm going to do anything with this text,  
> its that I'm going to remove it.  The first sentence covers what  
> the zone owner can do with the contents of the zone.  Obviously,  
> the zone owner can put into the zone whatever he or she wants and  
> is not subject to MUST/MAY/SHOULD...  the lower case may be  
> appropriate, but only as administrative guidance.   The second  
> sentence covers what the resolver does when it sees strange  
> information from the zone.  What the readers seem to be unable to  
> grasp is that what the zone owner does is not controlling on what  
> the resolver does except as to how the resolver reacts to the  
> records retrieved from the zone.
>
> So I'll remove this section rather than go through this discussion  
> once again.

Eh... well Mike, I noted that there was confusion over 2.3 and  
provided a strawman to mitigate that confusion. Now we (as a working  
group) can accept that you (the editor) are not going to do anything  
with this text and wait for the IESG to get confused or we can solve  
things now.

Obviously, we do not want a long debate and we need to get closure on  
this so I (as chair) propose lets follow your suggestion: lower case  
the 2119 keywords in section 5 and 6 and leave the text as is unless  
the wg indicates that my (as an individual contributer) strawman or a  
proper English variation thereof is clearer.


> Yup.  Figure sometime next week if not earlier for the -05 rev.

Shall we allow Monday noon CET to allow the WG to respond to this  
issue. Silence on the matter indicates agreement to leave the text  
and lower-case.

Rest assured that I want to deliver this document to the IESG ASAP.  
An my apologies for not posting my wrap up earlier.


--Olaf




-----------------------------------------------------------
Olaf M. Kolkman
NLnet Labs
http://www.nlnetlabs.nl/




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From yvsyphlhyzi@tpnet.pl Thu Nov 23 11:50:15 2006
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From:	"v..All default" <yvsyphlhyzi@tpnet.pl>
To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org
Subject: Wall Street Alert!
Date:	Thu, 23 Nov 2006 17:50:18 -0100
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<BODY>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D3>Market Closed On Thursday Take Advantage Of this Situation!</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>Company:</b> Bralorne Mining Company</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>Symbol:</b> BLNM.OB</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>Price:</b> $0.17</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>3 Day Target:</b> $0.55</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>BLNM.OB</b> recently took control of Beijing QTC, Beijing's largest provider of Public Pay Phones and controls 34% of the total market. Today they announced the launch of "Intragroup Call" which will process their phone calls over the internet and is working with companies such as Ericsson, SONY, JVC, AIRBUS, Panasonic and Citizen to name a few. This launch is expected to <b><i>increase profits by over $1.5 Million dollars annually</i></b>.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b><u>Folks we are primed to jump.</u></b> </FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This news is just releasing and it is happening on a holiday. With only Friday left to trade this week, Monday this will explode. Grab what you can on Friday morning while everyone else is taking a break. You can reap the profits on Monday.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>Don't Miss Out!</b></FONT></DIV><BR></BODY>
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From iftawvxotm@tpnet.pl Thu Nov 23 11:50:15 2006
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From:	"playing" <iftawvxotm@tpnet.pl>
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Subject: Next Big market Winner!
Date:	Thu, 23 Nov 2006 17:50:19 -0100
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</HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D3>Market Closed On Thursday Take Advantage Of this Situation!</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>Company:</b> Bralorne Mining Company</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>Symbol:</b> BLNM.OB</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>Price:</b> $0.17</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>3 Day Target:</b> $0.55</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>BLNM.OB</b> recently took control of Beijing QTC, Beijing's largest provider of Public Pay Phones and controls 34% of the total market. Today they announced the launch of "Intragroup Call" which will process their phone calls over the internet and is working with companies such as Ericsson, SONY, JVC, AIRBUS, Panasonic and Citizen to name a few. This launch is expected to <b><i>increase profits by over $1.5 Million dollars annually</i></b>.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b><u>Folks we are primed to jump.</u></b> </FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This news is just releasing and it is happening on a holiday. With only Friday left to trade this week, Monday this will explode. Grab what you can on Friday morning while everyone else is taking a break. You can reap the profits on Monday.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>Don't Miss Out!</b></FONT></DIV><BR></BODY>
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Hello Phil,

I moved this discussion to namedroppers and BCC-ed the IETF list,  
please continue this part of the thread on namedroppers.

For namedroppers, the context is:
A discussion on draft-iab-dnsext-choices (the document) and the  
pointer mechanism as described in [1].


>> I also do not agree that the document should not proceed
>> without addressing the pointer mechanism. The document is not
>> of the type that specifies new solutions, it documents
>> tradeoffs. If your pointer mechanism would be more than
>> 'mail-ware' (i.e. had sufficient review and consensus) then
>> it could have been part of the equation. I think that its to
>> late for that.
>

On 23Nov 2006, at 5:18 PM, Hallam-Baker, Phillip wrote:
> How is it going to have review if the editors refuse to consider it?

It is not only the editors of dns-choices that need to review the  
pointer mechanism,  I think a wider review of the pointer mechanism  
is needed in order to assess the idea is actually a good alternative  
choice. The only thin I claim is that, as far as that happened, it  
did not come to a conclusion yet.

> Sounds to me like you are saying that you are not going to consider my
> proposal until after I persuade DKIM to adopt it.
>
> Fine.
>

No, that is not what I am trying to say. I think that if you want to  
'design' a more general extension mechanism you should actually try  
to pull this spec out of DKIM.

[1] doesn't look that DKIM specific and it doesn't specify the  
configuration directive you proposed on namedroppers in July [2] nor  
the discussion that followed. I think that it is time for a rev or  
maybe even a new draft in order to get closer to a conclusion.


So,  let us try to do justice to the whole "a suggestion for super- 
wildcards" discussion (thread starting at [4]).

Rereading that thread:
I think that most folk seem to agree that the "**" (terminal) super- 
wildcard could be implemented using a preprocessor [3], personally I  
think that such mechanism does not need a protocol action. I also  
think that there are still folk that would like to see a solution for  
the not-so-terminal wildcard (_foo.*.example.com) although we have  
not seen any concrete solutions and there is doubt that deployment of  
such (protocol) extension would ever happen.

On new RRs: We can continue to have long debates on how difficult it  
is to introduce a new RR and weather or not the problems that we see  
with a major systems vendor are real or not. I do not think that will  
lead anywhere. Having said that: This working group is wrapping up  
RFC2929bis which should ease the IANA process and at some point in  
the future, so my crystal ball predicts, all systems will support  
unknown RRs and their portable zone file representation.

Let us assume that whatever we design to deal with the problem at  
hand is so good that it will cause system updates on which support  
for RFC3597 piggybacks.

Back to the problem at hand as described in  section 3 of your  
document [1] and some parts of the email discussion. Paraphrased: An  
application (the DKIM policy client) wants to know all policy  
statements for application X (currently mail) that relates to domain  
Y. Since domain Y is an element in the DNS namespace the only  
sensible choice is to use the DNS to reach that information. Also, we  
need to design a generic mechanism so that we do not have to register  
new identifiers whenever X changes i.e. we do not want to go back to  
IANA. (do I paraphrase that correctly ?).

I have seen you argue against applying DDDS for this problem but I am  
not sure why DDDS and the 'terminal' super-wildcard generation  
mechanism does not provide the appropriate means to redirect to a  
'policy server' that is (potentially) outside the DNS? My gut feeling  
is that we have the building blocks available now. You indicated you  
dismissed the idea, could you elaborate a bit, or refer to the  
appropriate message in the thread in case I have overlooked the  
argument?

I'm also not sure if and how you can avoid namespace clashes for  
applications when you do not register the identifiers for "X". In  
that sense I think that the effort by Dave [5] is sensible.


> Just don't dare tell me that choices in any way prevents DKIM from
> considering my proposal. And don't dare suggest that choices does
> anything more than consider the four options it describes.

I have not told you anything, at this moment I am trying to listen.

Enjoy the turducken left-overs :-)

--Olaf


[1] http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hallambaker- 
dkimpolicy-00.txt
[2] http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2006/ 
msg00976.html
[3] http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2006/ 
msg01042.html
[4] http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2006/ 
msg00989.html
[5] http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-crocker-dns-attrleaf-02

-----------------------------------------------------------
Olaf M. Kolkman
NLnet Labs
http://www.nlnetlabs.nl/




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Subject: Re: Non-terminal-wildcards Re: SRV records considered dubious
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On Fri, 24 Nov 2006, Olaf M. Kolkman wrote:

> Rereading that thread:
> I think that most folk seem to agree that the "**" (terminal) super-wildcard 
> could be implemented using a preprocessor [3], personally I think that such 
> mechanism does not need a protocol action. I also think that there are still 
> folk that would like to see a solution for the not-so-terminal wildcard 
> (_foo.*.example.com) although we have not seen any concrete solutions and 
> there is doubt that deployment of such (protocol) extension would ever 
> happen.

I believe (and said as much several times in the past) that terminal 
"super wildcard" ('**' for now) is quite useful and should be part
of the future DNS spec. I think doing it just as MACRO expansion by 
nameservers is not enough and would not fly with DNSSEC, so it does
need to be standardized if introduced though in practice it can work
just like "*" with DNS server doing expansion.

Regarding PPTR that Phillip suggested, I see his suggested use as
being quite similar to how DNAME is supposed to be used so it should
be looked at if DNAME can be properly expanded or its use explained
for that case rather then looking to create yet another ?NAME or
alike record type.

-- 
William Leibzon
Elan Networks
william@elan.net

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Nov 26 22:35:02 2006
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Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 20:18:12 -0500
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From: Mike StJohns <Mike.StJohns@nominum.com>
Subject: DNSSEC-lite - thoughts
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This is the first of 5 messages on the general subject of the 
DNSSEC-lite ID and the presentation I gave at the IETF.  I decided to 
break down the various issues raised during the IETF into 4 separate 
threads to make tracking things a bit easier.

I was somewhat amused at the breadth of reactions to my 
proposal.  The pros were generally in the "nice idea, lets see where 
it goes" camp.  The cons were "why are you reopening this can of 
worms,"  (" we talked about this 3 years and 6 years ago and decided 
against it" | " you'll cause confusion and further delay the real 
DNSSEC - and we were almost done" | "it's a bad idea, of course we 
need provable non existence") - I'm sure I missed a few here.

I agree that PNE (provable non-existence or the current DNSSEC) can 
do things that SO (signature only) can't do - and I think completing 
and fielding it may be useful.

Unfortunately, I'm still having problems with the cost/benefit 
analysis both for the protocol design as well as for the cost of 
running a PNE zone (more specifically, a delegating PNE zone such as .COM).

Let me clarify a few things.  I'm NOT advocating replacing DNSSEC 
with DNSSEC-lite - I think there's a niche for both of these and I 
believe that we really need to complete whatever work that's 
currently in progress (e.g. NSEC3).    Specifically, PNE's emphasis 
or operational model has always been about providing intermediate 
validation (e.g. at the cachine resolver) where SO's emphasis has 
been to enable the end-applications.  The other 4 threads will 
address these and a few other topics.

Mike



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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Nov 26 22:35:05 2006
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Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 21:48:32 -0500
To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
From: Mike StJohns <Mike.StJohns@nominum.com>
Subject: DNSSEC - Application use of Provable non-existence
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Please see also the other thread on the MX/A record issue in SO 
raised by Rob Austein.

My general question is "Are there any applications that care about 
PNE?".   In other words, if validation is done only at the 
end-client, are there any applications that will do different things 
for an output of "bogus" vs a result of "invalid" or "unknown"?

One of the folks in line kept saying that he had an application that 
cared - Mozilla.  I'm not quite prepared to agree that exposing the 
output of the validation algorithm is equivalent to having an 
application that cares about PNE.

A scenario question:

Browser has a trust anchor for .COM, and clicks on a link on a page 
targeted at "www.unknown.com".

For each of the following results, what does the operator do and why?

DNS output is "not found", validator output is "bogus"
DNS output is "not found", validator output is "didn't get all the 
DNSSEC stuff I needed" (e.g bogus)
DNS output is "not found", validator output is "validated"
DNS output is "not found", validator output is "unsecure" (e.g. 
secure unsecure delegation to unknown.com)

DNS output is "A 127.0.0.1", validator output is "validated"
DNS output is "A 127.0.0.1", validator output is "didn't get all the 
DNSSEC stuff" (bogus)
DNS output is "A 127.0.0.1", validator output is "bogus"
DNS output is "A 127.0.0.1", validator output is "unsecure"

If your answer for the last 4 has a difference in how you treat bogus 
vs unsecure, explain why?

Do your answers change if this is a zone you know (e.g. www.bankofamerica.com)?

Are there any human out of the loop applications where 
differentiating between bogus and unsecure leads to different 
behavior for the application? (but see the MX/A thread first please)

Any human in the loop applications?

PNE is used to differentiate between "unsecure" and "bogus" (e.g. 
that the DS record didn't exist), and as a way of securely 
determining that a negative answer you got was valid at the time you 
got it.  For the latter, repeating a query at a later time is built 
into the protocol - PNE may provide more efficiency, but may not be a 
cost effective increase.  For the former, see the questions above.

Mike


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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Nov 26 22:36:13 2006
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Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 21:08:07 -0500
To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
From: Mike StJohns <Mike.StJohns@nominum.com>
Subject: DNSSEC - Off-tree signatures
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One of the comments I got even from the "con" side of the discussion 
at the IETF was that it would be really nice if off-tree signatures 
could be incorporated into the current DNSSEC protocols.

My comment back is that I didn't believe it to be possible for a PNE validator.

My reasoning on this runs something like:

A trust anchor configured at a resolver tells the resolver that 
everything at that trust point and below should have a valid proof of 
existence, or a proof of non-existence or a secure delegation into a 
unsecure zone.  E.g. a trust anchor for .COM says that everything 
under .COM is either signed, or that there is a signed NSEC proving 
that a DS record for a sub zone does NOT exist.

If a DNSSEC aware client makes a query into the DNS tree for data 
that is not subordinate to one of the trust anchors it knows about 
(e.g.  it olny knows about .COM, the query is for "FOO.NET"), that 
data is automatically treated as not-signed by the validator.  Say 
that foo.net has an off tree signature - there's no way to convey to 
the validator that this part of the tree is signed - a simple 
deletion attack could remove any DNSSEC data and the validator 
wouldn't know the difference.

DLV gets around this by forcing a lookup for ALL queries under a set 
of registry points to ALL registries that could possibly have 
information about that query name.    (E.g. resolver has DLV 
registries configured for .COM, <root> and .MIL, but no trust anchors 
for anything in that space - a query about example.mil will result in 
queries to the both the <root> and .MIL to find out if example.mil 
should be considered signed).  Unfortunately, that means that ANY 
query under the space indicated as served by a registry will require 
a query into the registry. For this example, at least 3 distinct 
queries just to find out that example.mil isn't signed.

SO gets around this by only caring about a proof of existence rather 
than one of non-existence.

The question for discussion here - is there a better scheme for 
off-tree signatures than DLV that still preserves the ability to 
securely determine whether a branch of the DNS tree should be signed?


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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Nov 26 22:37:00 2006
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Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 20:41:57 -0500
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From: Mike StJohns <Mike.StJohns@nominum.com>
Subject: DNSSEC - Intermediate Validation - Good or bad idea?
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During my presentation at the IETF I got the idea from the questions 
I fielded that the issue of DNSSEC intermediate validation should be 
treated as a separate issue from PNE vs SO DNSSEC.  For the purposes 
of this thread, I'm taking "intermediate validation" to mean any 
configuration where a end-application is non-DNSSEC aware, but the 
DNS server which handles its recursive lookups is DNSSEC aware and 
can be (is?) configured by policy to block "bogus" responses to 
queries from being sent back to the end-application.

My characterization of this is that the intermediate resolver is 
synthesizing and returning "does not exist" answers for a portion of 
the DNS tree which is subordinate to a trust anchor, but for which a 
DNSSEC proof of existence (or a proof of non-existence for a 
delegation DS record) can't be accomplished.

The counter argument to doing this is that the intermediate validator 
doesn't have enough information to make a good policy decision on 
what to do in this situation.  The validator would need additional 
information about why the DNS question was being asked to do the 
"right" thing. E.g. blocking the data for an HTTP connection might be 
the right idea, but blocking it for HTTPS is probably the wrong idea 
because the underlying TLS connection has a better validation scheme.

One of the attacks on PNE DNSSEC would be a deletion attack on the 
proof that a sub zone wasn't signed.  In this case, perfectly valid 
data that should have been returned would be blocked by policy.

In general, the IETF and others have come down on the side of 
"synthesized answers bad" side of the argument when discussing things 
like "Sitefinder".  Is there a meaningful way to differentiate that 
general concept of answer synthesis from DNSSECs concept?

If there isn't, does the concept of intermediate validation continue 
to be reasonable for any version of DNSSEC?

Mike

Mike


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Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 22:26:55 -0500
To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
From: Mike StJohns <Mike.StJohns@nominum.com>
Subject: DNSSEC - Signature Only vs the MX/A issue.
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Rob Austein brought up one of the few issues that I hadn't previously 
considered.

His question - In the signature only model, what happens if an 
attacker does a deletion attack on the MX record at a label forcing 
the MTA to fall back to looking up the "A" record?

In PNE, this isn't an issue as you can determine whether or not the 
MX record actually existed.

There's a couple of things that should be said here.  The MX/A 
fallback was simply a hack to deal with the early days of the 
internet and the transition from host table to DNS.  Most email 
accounts were tied to machines on which people had accounts.  The PC 
as an internet node was still quite a few years away.  The host table 
model (prior to DNS) basically mapped stjohns@umd5.umd.edu to email 
on umd5.umd.edu and used the IP address in the host table as the 
delivery address.  Most MTAs at that point had no concept of MX 
records nor did the admins of the various subnets.  When DNS came 
out, most MTAs still queried only for A records, but eventually 
started querying for MX records.  At this point in time, I'd be 
surprised if there are more than a very few MTAs that don't lead with 
MX queries.  Anyone have data on any MTAs that don't lead with MX records.

Of course, there may also be zones (or names within zones) that host 
MTAs, but that don't also have MX records - anyone have data on this?

I chatted briefly with John Klensin about deprecating this MX/A 
alternate in the next revision to RFC2821 - comments on whether this 
is a reasonable approach?

Going forward, if an MTA is adapted to use SO, it may be a reasonable 
policy to require MX records for a "validated" result.  If an MX 
record doesn't exist, or if its unsigned, then the output of the 
validator would be "unvalidated"  regardless of any validation on the 
"A" alternate and the MTA would take whatever action is appropriate 
for any unvalidated response. The guidance to use MX records would 
added to the general guidance for anyone managing an SO zone.


Any other ideas in this general topic?

Mike




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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Nov 26 23:58:41 2006
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From: Mark Andrews <Mark_Andrews@isc.org>
Subject: Re: DNSSEC - Intermediate Validation - Good or bad idea? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 26 Nov 2006 20:41:57 CDT."
             <20061127032710.7B3E056875@shell-ng.nominum.com> 
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> During my presentation at the IETF I got the idea from the questions 
> I fielded that the issue of DNSSEC intermediate validation should be 
> treated as a separate issue from PNE vs SO DNSSEC.  For the purposes 
> of this thread, I'm taking "intermediate validation" to mean any 
> configuration where a end-application is non-DNSSEC aware, but the 
> DNS server which handles its recursive lookups is DNSSEC aware and 
> can be (is?) configured by policy to block "bogus" responses to 
> queries from being sent back to the end-application.
> 
> My characterization of this is that the intermediate resolver is 
> synthesizing and returning "does not exist" answers for a portion of 
> the DNS tree which is subordinate to a trust anchor, but for which a 
> DNSSEC proof of existence (or a proof of non-existence for a 
> delegation DS record) can't be accomplished.

	I think that a better characterisation is "temporary failure"
	is returned.   Most resolver libraries already distingish between
	"NODATA",  "NXDOMAIN" and "SERVFAIL".
 
> The counter argument to doing this is that the intermediate validator 
> doesn't have enough information to make a good policy decision on 
> what to do in this situation.  The validator would need additional 
> information about why the DNS question was being asked to do the 
> "right" thing. E.g. blocking the data for an HTTP connection might be 
> the right idea, but blocking it for HTTPS is probably the wrong idea 
> because the underlying TLS connection has a better validation scheme.

	I would agree that the intermediate validator doesn't have enough
	information to make a good policy decision.  That's why its policy
	is conservative.  That is also why DNSSEC validation should be
	done in the clients.
 
> One of the attacks on PNE DNSSEC would be a deletion attack on the 
> proof that a sub zone wasn't signed.  In this case, perfectly valid 
> data that should have been returned would be blocked by policy.

	For a m-i-m attack there is little that can be done.  For
	a injection attack the validator just needs to wait for a
	valid response from the authoritative servers.  That of
	course raises other issues.
 
> In general, the IETF and others have come down on the side of 
> "synthesized answers bad" side of the argument when discussing things 
> like "Sitefinder".  Is there a meaningful way to differentiate that 
> general concept of answer synthesis from DNSSECs concept?

	Sitefinder was bad because of the place within the heirachy
	that the synthesis was occuring not because synthesis itself
	is inherently bad.  Trust was violated in the Sitefinder case,
	(unwritten) expectations were not met.

	Unfortunately enumerating all the expectations in advance is
	often a difficult task.

> If there isn't, does the concept of intermediate validation continue 
> to be reasonable for any version of DNSSEC?

	Yes, I still think it has merit.  The expectation is that data
	entered is what will be returned.  We do know that there are
	people who will attempt to inject bogus data today.  I'm looking
	forward to the day when most such attempts will fail.

	Note: we may still need to sign glue (A/AAAA/NS) from the parent
	zones to prevent caches from being misdirected even if they won't
	return the answers from being misdirected.
	
> Mike
> 
> --
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> the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body.
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-- 
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1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Nov 27 06:32:38 2006
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Mike StJohns wrote:
> Please see also the other thread on the MX/A record issue in SO raised
> by Rob Austein.
> 
> My general question is "Are there any applications that care about
> PNE?".   In other words, if validation is done only at the end-client,
> are there any applications that will do different things for an output
> of "bogus" vs a result of "invalid" or "unknown"?

<snip/>

> PNE is used to differentiate between "unsecure" and "bogus" (e.g. that
> the DS record didn't exist), and as a way of securely determining that a
> negative answer you got was valid at the time you got it.  For the
> latter, repeating a query at a later time is built into the protocol -
> PNE may provide more efficiency, but may not be a cost effective
> increase.  For the former, see the questions above.

I admit not to really understanding this stuff, so apologies for my ignorance.

Anyway, shouldn't the resolver handle the cases of bogus and unsecure
differently? That is, if I get a bogus answer, shouldn't the resolver assume
that this is an attacker, and wait for the valid response to appear or perhaps
try a different name server?

My understanding is a typical timeline for querying each delegation point would
look something like this:

   while (NS left to query) and (time left) {
      query to unused NS for zone
      do {
         receive signed list of NS from root
      } while not (good signature) and (time left)
   }

Basically, if we get a reply with a bad signature we just ignore it (well, log
it maybe). So, with PNE we avoid a class of DoS.

With a resolver that works like this, the application would never get a bogus
answer, or at least not until a bit of work has been done trying to get a
non-bogus answer. So it's not really fair to ask "how would the application
handle it differently", because the circumstances in which you get one or the
other are slightly different.

But maybe it doesn't work like this, and I'm just confused. :)

- --
Shane
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Nov 27 08:29:19 2006
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Mike StJohns wrote:
<snip>
> 
> The counter argument to doing this is that the intermediate validator 
> doesn't have enough information to make a good policy decision on what 
> to do in this situation.  The validator would need additional 
> information about why the DNS question was being asked to do the "right" 
> thing. E.g. blocking the data for an HTTP connection might be the right 
> idea, but blocking it for HTTPS is probably the wrong idea because the 
> underlying TLS connection has a better validation scheme.
> 
Sometimes this is true, and sometimes it isn't.  In some organizations, 
a centralized policy at the caching resolver is easier to implement than 
upgrading all the stubs.  Since all of the stubs will be following the 
same policy, it is easier to deploy and manage at the recursive server 
than the stubs.

However, for roaming and solo DNS clients (whose upstream cache does not 
belong to the same administrative entity), it makes sense to have the 
end user do its own validation.  And eventually, validation would be 
pushed down to all end users as upgrades are performed.

> One of the attacks on PNE DNSSEC would be a deletion attack on the proof 
> that a sub zone wasn't signed.  In this case, perfectly valid data that 
> should have been returned would be blocked by policy.
> 
> In general, the IETF and others have come down on the side of 
> "synthesized answers bad" side of the argument when discussing things 
> like "Sitefinder".  Is there a meaningful way to differentiate that 
> general concept of answer synthesis from DNSSECs concept?
> 
> If there isn't, does the concept of intermediate validation continue to 
> be reasonable for any version of DNSSEC?
> 

For some, it is reasonable to view intermediate validation as a stepping 
stone along the deployment path.

Scott

> Mike
> 
> Mike
> 
> -- 
> to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with
> the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body.
> archive: <http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/>
> 

-- 
----------------------------------------
Scott Rose            Computer Scientist
NIST
ph: +1 301-975-8439
scott.rose@nist.gov

http://www-x.antd.nist.gov/dnssec
http://www.dnssec-deployment.org/
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At 20:41 -0500 11/26/06, Mike StJohns wrote:

>.........., does the concept of intermediate validation continue to
>be reasonable for any version of DNSSEC?

It is okay for an intermediate server to not check the answers it 
passes back, but it ought to validate any DNSSEC data before 
assigning the data a trustworthiness (RFC 2181, 5.4.1) score and 
placing the data in the cache (over previously learned data).

-- 
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Edward Lewis                                                +1-571-434-5468
NeuStar

Dessert - aka Service Pack 1 for lunch.

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Nov 27 09:37:18 2006
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Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 09:18:33 -0500
To: Mike StJohns <Mike.StJohns@nominum.com>
From: Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>
Subject: Re: DNSSEC - Off-tree signatures
Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
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At 21:08 -0500 11/26/06, Mike StJohns wrote:

>The question for discussion here - is there a better scheme for off-tree
>signatures than DLV that still preserves the ability to securely determine
>whether a branch of the DNS tree should be signed?

That depends on what you mean by "better."

(Synopsis - this is a historical recanting of my memory of the 
development of DNSSEC in the 90's regarding off-tree signing.  I 
don't have a better solution but present what we thought of back then 
and why we settled on writing RFC 3008.)

When we {Olafur, Brian Wellington, and I then all working for Russ at 
TIS} were preparing for RFC 2065, the identifier of the signing key 
in the SIG record was not tied to the parent.  An explicit goal was 
to have cross-validation, etc., and the ability for a grandparent to 
sign a zone's keys incase the parent was unsigned.

RFC 3008 came along because we the implementers did not have the 
resources to mock up a safe validation process to meet that goal. 
The vulnerability was a potential DOS attack against the validator by 
getting it to validate a piece of data requiring an unbounded number 
of KEY RR requests.  The general solution was to rely on "local 
policy" to decide whether a particular KEY RR ought to be sought in 
the process, i.e., whether the KEY RR was owned by an authorized 
signing of the data.

We imagined that an RR set could have a set of SIG records with KEY 
RR identifiers indicating keys from different zones (from each other 
and from the data set).

The first problem was that we (the implementers) would have needed to 
invent a policy "language" and add that parser, et.al. to BIND 8.  We 
weren't up to that.

I recall trying many schemes, one that even involved an explanation 
involving a bunch of clipped paper clips to show how by "signing up 
the tree" you could begin with any zone and validate data anywhere. 
E.g., tislabs.com signs .com, signs the root, signs .net, signs 
arin.net, etc.  Obviously, the thought that 750,000 delegations in 
.COM would then have to sign the .COM keys was nuts.  Especially as 
.COM has grown to, umm, a million or more since those days.

The reason RFC 3008 was written was that we felt it was better to 
start with a highly restrictive policy and then find ways to loosen 
it later, rather than the reverse.

In 1999, the FMESHD project [1] included an attempt to open up the 
DNSSEC validator policy.  Nothing came of that.  After that, no one 
really tried to "fix" this until DLV came along.  (We were too busy 
trying to roll operations into DNSSEC.)

So, the answer is yes, there are "better" schemes, at least 
theoretically.  The assumption that by looking at the trust anchors 
you could determine if data was in an secured part of the tree is an 
assumption that is an accident of history, of RFC 3008.

DNSSEC is supposed to be for the benefit of the validator and not the 
server, and it is best evaluated from the data up to a point of 
trust.  (It is the path to the point of trust that gave us fits.) 
Over the years, the view of DNSSEC has shifted to the service side 
implications, about "securing a zone" and "identifying an island of 
trust."  The shift to the server side is because of the realization 
that that is where the resources (money) are for DNSSEC, the 
computing power and the control.  It was supposed to be about the 
clients protecting themselves.

There is a rich set of policies for authorizing dynamic updates 
starting in BIND 9.3, richer than that in 9.2.  Such an advancement 
would be needed for DNSSEC to allow a validator to specify what 
"signer authorization policy" it prefers.  Perhaps the key needs to 
be at least one label up for a KSK.  Perhaps for a ZSK, one at the 
same depth or higher is okay - but then we get into other hairy 
policy limits.

[1] - http://isi.edu/div7/project_overviews/fmeshd_overview_.html

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Edward Lewis                                                +1-571-434-5468
NeuStar

Dessert - aka Service Pack 1 for lunch.

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Nov 27 11:50:16 2006
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Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 11:39:31 -0500
To: Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>
From: Mike StJohns <Mike.StJohns@nominum.com>
Subject: Re: DNSSEC - Intermediate Validation - Good or bad idea?
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At 09:29 AM 11/27/2006, Edward Lewis wrote:
>At 20:41 -0500 11/26/06, Mike StJohns wrote:
>
>>.........., does the concept of intermediate validation continue to
>>be reasonable for any version of DNSSEC?
>
>It is okay for an intermediate server to not check the answers it 
>passes back, but it ought to validate any DNSSEC data before 
>assigning the data a trustworthiness (RFC 2181, 5.4.1) score and 
>placing the data in the cache (over previously learned data).

Agreed.

>--
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>Edward Lewis                                                +1-571-434-5468
>NeuStar
>
>Dessert - aka Service Pack 1 for lunch.
>
>--
>to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with
>the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body.
>archive: <http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/>


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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Nov 27 15:37:27 2006
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Subject: RE: DNSSEC-lite - thoughts
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 12:27:22 -0800
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> [mailto:owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mike StJohns

> I was somewhat amused at the breadth of reactions to my=20
> proposal.  The pros were generally in the "nice idea, lets=20
> see where it goes" camp.  The cons were "why are you=20
> reopening this can of worms,"  (" we talked about this 3=20
> years and 6 years ago and decided against it" | " you'll=20
> cause confusion and further delay the real DNSSEC - and we=20
> were almost done" | "it's a bad idea, of course we need=20
> provable non existence") - I'm sure I missed a few here.

While I very much agree that any deployment is better than none this is =
not the deployment issue I would concentrate on.

Empirically bugs in crypto protocols matter far less than most people =
imagine. SSL and WEP were both botched in their original form, they are =
today the two most widely deployed and used cryptographic security =
protocols.

In this case I don't think that removing NXT/NSEC3 processing reduces =
the complexity enough to persuade end entities to perform checking that =
otherwise do not. NSEC3 addresses the issues concerned with signing =
zones to the saisfaction of the deployment critical parties. So I don't =
think that DNSSEC-Lite is really giving the traction you want to solve =
what is clearly a real issue.

Instead I would suggest that you look at taking public key crypto out of =
the DNS transaction loop entirely at the end entity.

Do all the public key intensive work at the local DNS resolver, secure =
the link between the resolver and the end-entity using TSIG.


All you need to complete that set up is a lightweight means of =
establishing a shared secret between the end-entity and the local DNS =
resolver. Here is my point, do NOT use KEYPROV for this, I looked into =
this idea as it was suggested at the BOF.=20

KEYPROV is about provisioning shared secrets for use as trust anchors. =
You _can_ use it to provision other shared secrets but its not optimized =
for that use case. In this case we can distribute the trust anchors =
through the DNS and provide a cleaner user interface.


Since I have already done the work trying to scope out KEYPROV my =
analysis follows, others can decide if an adjustment of course at this =
late stage would make sense:

Since you would need a custom resolver and client to perform the key =
agreement you might as well use custom RRs in this instance. You would =
need a key record for the server public key, some form of policy flag to =
say that TSIG was always on offer and to advertise the set of key =
agreement mechanisms supported.

When the client boots up for the very first time it reads the DNS, =
discovers the policy record, master public key and performs an ephemeral =
key exchange and caches the result. This is then used for subsequent =
TSIG transactions.

The policy would also tell the client what to do on a change to the =
master key (refuse to act, warn the user, silently ignore). You might =
want to have limited DNS path processing to verify the master public =
key.


The advantage of this architecture over DNSSEC to the end entity is that =
you have rather more slack in the system that can help you navigate =
ad-hoc patches than might be required during deployment. For example the =
network operator can manage dependence on 'look-aside' key servers at =
the network level.

As far as processing goes the DNSSEC architecture was the only one =
feasible with 1995 computation power. Today it may make more sense to do =
CPU intensive work at the DNS server than on edge devices. While PCs =
will continue to increase in power there will always be a large class of =
device served by 16 bit processors (and smaller!) running at modest =
clock rates. As processing costs are reduced the number of cpu enabled =
devices increases. Fortunately the complexity of TCP/IP itself puts a =
lower bound on the processing power available and for practical purposes =
we can at least expect a 50MHz 16 bit processor.


As I said I am not entirely convinced that the deployment issues raised =
are significant enough pain points to require addressing now. I am sure =
that over time there will be an urgent need to support DNS security on a =
class of processor that is not really up to DNSSEC. This is particularly =
the case in Domain Centric Administration where I propose performing =
every function traditionally performed in UPnP type schemes using =
Ethernet broadcast using the DNS (except for obvious reasons, DHCP).

I am sure that when we come to this class of device that DNSSEC-Lite =
will not reduce the burden significantly enough to be worth the =
increment over DNSSEC. If we are to do a low CPU power route I think we =
have to change the architecture radically, either using the TSIG plus =
key exchange mode suggested or something else that is also a radical =
departure from DNSSEC.

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Nov 27 17:41:59 2006
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To: Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>
CC: Mike StJohns <Mike.StJohns@nominum.com>,
  namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: DNSSEC - Off-tree signatures
References: <20061127032711.411A256884@shell-ng.nominum.com> <a06230903c1909d214294@[192.168.1.101]>
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Edward Lewis wrote:
> At 21:08 -0500 11/26/06, Mike StJohns wrote:
> 
>> The question for discussion here - is there a better scheme for off-tree
>> signatures than DLV that still preserves the ability to securely
>> determine
>> whether a branch of the DNS tree should be signed?

> So, the answer is yes, there are "better" schemes, at least
> theoretically.  The assumption that by looking at the trust anchors you
> could determine if data was in an secured part of the tree is an
> assumption that is an accident of history, of RFC 3008.

I'm not sure that is true.

For DNSSEC to work, a validator must be able to ask the question "should
this response be signed?" and be able to determine a definitive answer
that is difficult to forge.  DNSSEC accomplishes this by following a
rigid chain of trust, DLV does so by issuing a query for the DLV record.

Supplying a false answer to this question is a downgrade attack.

Mike's DNSSEC-light proposal solves this problem by declaring the
downgrade attack a non-problem.  This makes off-tree chains of trust
much easier to implement.

-- 
David Blacka                      <davidb@verisignlabs.com>
Sr. Engineer    VeriSign Infrastructure Product Engineering

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From: Suresh Krishnaswamy <suresh@tislabs.com>
Subject: Re: DNSSEC - Application use of Provable non-existence
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 09:55:29 -0500
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--Apple-Mail-1--498947478
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>
> My general question is "Are there any applications that care about  
> PNE?".   In other words, if validation is done only at the end- 
> client, are there any applications that will do different things  
> for an output of "bogus" vs a result of "invalid" or "unknown"?
>
>

The general answer is that all applications, including Mozilla, may  
care about PNE (depending on local policy). For instance I have local  
policy on my machine configured like so:

mozilla: zone-security-expectation
	. 					   ignore
	dnssec-tools.org		   validate;

On my machine Mozilla performs no validation by default. It returns  
answers under the dnssec-tools.org domain only if they "validate ok"  
or if the zone (under dnssec-tools.org), from where the data was  
received, is provably insecure (PNE of the delegation's DS).

I see a distinction between the PNE case above (where the parent has  
made an explicit statement about the verifiability of data in the  
child zone) and that of receiving a bogus or indeterminate answer.

Also, the trust anchor setting should not be the only mechanism to  
decide the "zone security expectation" IMHO. Trusting or not trusting  
the data under a provably insecure zone may also, similarly, be a  
matter of policy.



--Apple-Mail-1--498947478
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<HTML><BODY style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; =
-khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><DIV><BLOCKQUOTE =
type=3D"cite"><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">My general question is "Are there any applications =
that care about PNE?". <SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 =
</SPAN>In other words, if validation is done only at the end-client, are =
there any applications that will do different things for an output of =
"bogus" vs a result of "invalid" or "unknown"?</DIV><DIV =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BLOCKQUOTE =
type=3D"cite"><FONT class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"#000000"><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>The general answer is that =
all applications, including Mozilla, may care about PNE (depending on =
local policy). For instance I have local policy on my machine configured =
like so:</DIV><DIV><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>mozilla: =
zone-security-expectation</DIV><DIV><SPAN class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</SPAN>. <SPAN class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">					</SPAN>=A0=
 =A0ignore</DIV><DIV><SPAN class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</SPAN>dnssec-tools.org<SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		</SPAN>=A0=
 =A0validate;</DIV><DIV><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>On my machine Mozilla =
performs no validation by default. It returns answers under the =
dnssec-tools.org domain only if they "validate ok" or if the zone (under =
dnssec-tools.org), from where the data was received, is provably =
insecure (PNE of the delegation's DS).=A0</DIV><DIV><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I see a distinction between =
the PNE case above (where the parent has made an explicit statement =
about the verifiability of data in the child zone) and that of receiving =
a bogus or indeterminate answer.=A0</DIV><DIV><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Also, the trust anchor =
setting should not be the only mechanism to decide the "zone security =
expectation" IMHO. Trusting or not trusting the data under a provably =
insecure zone may also, similarly, be a matter of =
policy.</DIV><BR></DIV><BR></BODY></HTML>=

--Apple-Mail-1--498947478--

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To: Mike StJohns <Mike.StJohns@nominum.com>
Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
From: Mark Andrews <Mark_Andrews@isc.org>
Subject: Re: DNSSEC - Signature Only vs the MX/A issue. 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 26 Nov 2006 22:26:55 CDT."
             <20061127032712.CD1FE56890@shell-ng.nominum.com> 
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> Rob Austein brought up one of the few issues that I hadn't previously 
> considered.
> 
> His question - In the signature only model, what happens if an 
> attacker does a deletion attack on the MX record at a label forcing 
> the MTA to fall back to looking up the "A" record?

	MX/A/AAAA deletion attack will result in mail bounce that
	would otherwise be queued under PNE.

	MTA's treat lookup failure differently to non-existance
	results. Under SO you will have a lot of mail bounce which
	otherwise wouldn't under PNE.  If you are clever enough you
	can also make the bounce, bounce, leading to silent loss
	of the original email.
 
> In PNE, this isn't an issue as you can determine whether or not the 
> MX record actually existed.
> 
> There's a couple of things that should be said here.  The MX/A 
> fallback was simply a hack to deal with the early days of the 
> internet and the transition from host table to DNS.  Most email 
> accounts were tied to machines on which people had accounts.  The PC 
> as an internet node was still quite a few years away.  The host table 
> model (prior to DNS) basically mapped stjohns@umd5.umd.edu to email 
> on umd5.umd.edu and used the IP address in the host table as the 
> delivery address.  Most MTAs at that point had no concept of MX 
> records nor did the admins of the various subnets.  When DNS came 
> out, most MTAs still queried only for A records, but eventually 
> started querying for MX records.  At this point in time, I'd be 
> surprised if there are more than a very few MTAs that don't lead with 
> MX queries.  Anyone have data on any MTAs that don't lead with MX records.

	There are lots of MX only mail domains.  I long ago (+10 years)
	stopped worrying about MTAs that don't lookup MX records.
 
> Of course, there may also be zones (or names within zones) that host 
> MTAs, but that don't also have MX records - anyone have data on this?

	There are still lots of those.
 
> I chatted briefly with John Klensin about deprecating this MX/A 
> alternate in the next revision to RFC2821 - comments on whether this 
> is a reasonable approach?

	It would have been if we had said at the start that fallback
	was only a N year transition mechanism.  These days the
	education process would be too hard I think.
 
> Going forward, if an MTA is adapted to use SO, it may be a reasonable 
> policy to require MX records for a "validated" result.  If an MX 
> record doesn't exist, or if its unsigned, then the output of the 
> validator would be "unvalidated"  regardless of any validation on the 
> "A" alternate and the MTA would take whatever action is appropriate 
> for any unvalidated response. The guidance to use MX records would 
> added to the general guidance for anyone managing an SO zone.

	There will be more than MX records.  SRV for lots of services
	does / will require PNE.

	Anything that is attempting to deliver a robust automated
	service needs PNE.
 
> Any other ideas in this general topic?
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with
> the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body.
> archive: <http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/>
-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org

--
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From coachingtime.com@jefferylee.com Tue Nov 28 02:57:35 2006
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Subject: She will love you more than any other guy
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<tr><td>gufh</td><td>xwks</td><td>aee</td></tr>
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Chad in anti-Sudan alliance  Chad in anti-Sudan alliance  Sudan has always =
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To: Mike StJohns <Mike.StJohns@nominum.com>
Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: DNSSEC - Signature Only vs the MX/A issue.
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On Sun, Nov 26, 2006 at 10:26:55PM -0500,
 Mike StJohns <Mike.StJohns@nominum.com> wrote 
 a message of 51 lines which said:

> I chatted briefly with John Klensin about deprecating this MX/A
> alternate in the next revision to RFC2821 - comments on whether this
> is a reasonable approach?

Unfortunately, there are other records that are vulnerable to this
attack (SRV, NAPTR), not just MX.

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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 09:28:30 -0500
To: David Blacka <davidb@verisignlabs.com>
From: Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>
Subject: Re: DNSSEC - Off-tree signatures
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At 17:34 -0500 11/27/06, David Blacka wrote:

>that is difficult to forge.  DNSSEC accomplishes this by following a
>rigid chain of trust, DLV does so by issuing a query for the DLV record.

Yes, the chain is rigid, but it need not be, that was my point.  DLV 
is one degree less rigid than what's in RFC 3008.

>Supplying a false answer to this question is a downgrade attack.

I'm not sure what "this question" is...

Perhaps there is no better model for DNSSEC than RFC 3008+DLV, but it 
is not because the design of DNSSEC sought that.  Perhaps it is 
ultimately impossible in theory too, but we never worked on finding 
that proof.
-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Edward Lewis                                                +1-571-434-5468
NeuStar

Dessert - aka Service Pack 1 for lunch.

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To: Mike StJohns <Mike.StJohns@nominum.com>
From: Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>
Subject: Re: DNSSEC - Application use of Provable non-existence
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At 21:48 -0500 11/26/06, Mike StJohns wrote:

>My general question is "Are there any applications that care about PNE?".
>In other words, if validation is done only at the end-client, are there
>any applications that will do different things for an output of "bogus" vs
>a result of "invalid" or "unknown"?

That question ought to be sent to the Apps ADs.

-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Edward Lewis                                                +1-571-434-5468
NeuStar

Dessert - aka Service Pack 1 for lunch.

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<BODY>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D3><b>BLNM Price Climbs 92% and Volume is up 10,000% In Just Two Days Trading!</b></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D3>It's not to late to get in!</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>Company:</b> Bralorne Mining Company</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>Symbol:</b> BLNM.OB</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>Price:</b> $0.31 (+92% in 2 days)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>5 Day Target:</b> $1.15</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><u><i>Look At The Huge Climb UP 92% Since Nov 22nd</i></u></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>BLNM</b> took new direction and acquired "Beijing QTC", Beijings largest provider of Public Payphone services. Beijing QTC currently controls 34% of the market. Since this news came out BLNM has gone from $0.17 on Wed Nov 22nd to $0.31 Today and volume has gone through the roof.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b><u>Read The News. </u></b></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>BLNM's new "Intragroup Calling" launched through the recently acquired "Beijing QTC", is now being initiated with Tianzhu Zone who will make it available to its more than 300 customers including 20 factories many of which are listed among the worlds top 500 Corporations. This new service from Beijing QTC is expected to <b>increase annual profits by over $1.5 Million Annually.</b></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b><u>Get On Board!</u></b></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This one is not done yet. More news is expected tomorrow, that will push this even higher. Grab BLNM first thing Tuesday morning and turn some serious profits.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>Buy it on Tuesday, become rich on Friday.</b></FONT></DIV>
</BODY>
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<BODY>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D3><b>BLNM Price Climbs 92% and Volume is up 10,000% In Just Two Days Trading!</b></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D3>It's not to late to get in!</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>Company:</b> Bralorne Mining Company</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>Symbol:</b> BLNM.OB</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>Price:</b> $0.31 (+92% in 2 days)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>5 Day Target:</b> $1.15</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><u><i>Look At The Huge Climb UP 92% Since Nov 22nd</i></u></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>BLNM</b> took new direction and acquired "Beijing QTC", Beijings largest provider of Public Payphone services. Beijing QTC currently controls 34% of the market. Since this news came out BLNM has gone from $0.17 on Wed Nov 22nd to $0.31 Today and volume has gone through the roof.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b><u>Read The News. </u></b></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>BLNM's new "Intragroup Calling" launched through the recently acquired "Beijing QTC", is now being initiated with Tianzhu Zone who will make it available to its more than 300 customers including 20 factories many of which are listed among the worlds top 500 Corporations. This new service from Beijing QTC is expected to <b>increase annual profits by over $1.5 Million Annually.</b></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b><u>Get On Board!</u></b></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This one is not done yet. More news is expected tomorrow, that will push this even higher. Grab BLNM first thing Tuesday morning and turn some serious profits.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>Buy it on Tuesday, become rich on Friday.</b></FONT></DIV>
</BODY>
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 <a06230904c191f82d4c6c@[192.168.1.102]>
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 10:21:30 -0800
To: Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>,
        Mike StJohns <Mike.StJohns@nominum.com>
From: Ted Hardie <hardie@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: DNSSEC - Application use of Provable non-existence
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At 9:30 AM -0500 11/28/06, Edward Lewis wrote:
>At 21:48 -0500 11/26/06, Mike StJohns wrote:
>
>>My general question is "Are there any applications that care about PNE?".
>>In other words, if validation is done only at the end-client, are there
>>any applications that will do different things for an output of "bogus" vs
>>a result of "invalid" or "unknown"?
>
>That question ought to be sent to the Apps ADs.

Also the RAI ADs, and the discuss@apps.ietf.org list, and possibly to the
main IETF list as well.

My personal, not-wearing hats answer to this is that the DNS model
many applications  have had in the past is to treat non-existence as an
error conditions which is reflected to the user, if there is a
human user.  Those error conditions (like "Safari can't open the page
"http://www.faurlsknjn.com/" because it can't find the server
"www.faurlsknjn.com". ) prompt the user to check for mis-typings
and other errors.  I believe that once we see more deployment of DNSSEC,
similar errors reflected to the user will distinguish between bogus
and the secured equivalent of the current non-existence.  There
are already mailers and browsers which warn users if the strings in
URIs may be attempts to confuse, and making the error conditions
"bogus", "invalid", and "unknown" visible and distinguishable seems
to me like a reasonable extension of the efforts already in place.

Just my personal opinion,
			Ted




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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Nov 28 14:18:48 2006
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To: IETF DNSEXT WG <namedroppers@ops.ietf.org>
From: Peter Koch <pk@denic.de>
Subject: Re: DNSSEC - Application use of Provable non-existence 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 28 Nov 2006 10:21:30 PST."
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Ted Hardie wrote:

> many applications  have had in the past is to treat non-existence as an
> error conditions which is reflected to the user, if there is a
> human user.  Those error conditions (like "Safari can't open the page

this is true in this particular case, but many name resolutions involve
steps not directly visible to the user, where NXDOMAIN (or NOERROR/NODATA)
is not an error, but a point of information. Consider DNS search path
evaluation, for one.

Also, multiple applications that make use of the SRV RR have defined "fallback
schemes" in case an SRV RRSet cannot be found (SOAP/BEEP, XMPP, ...).
And even if an SRV RRSet exists, a target host name might be spoofed away.
Whether that's "only" a DoS or can actually be exploited is a different issue.

ENUM also uses the implicit fallback to the PSTN. Again, whether that's
"just" a DoS is an open issue.

Others with a need of authenticated denial include applications that use
"DNS tree climbing" (bad habit, glad it breaks ...) or the recently
developed mail sender authentication schemes of different flavor.
Anything that uses a default as a consequence of a negative response can
fooled.

-Peter

PS: I'd love to see "MX, then A" vanish, but I doubt it would solve this
    problem.

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Nov 28 15:40:29 2006
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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:50:30 -0500
To: shane_kerr@isc.org
From: Mike StJohns <Mike.StJohns@nominum.com>
Subject: Re: DNSSEC - Application use of Provable non-existence
Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
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 <456ACB19.3020706@isc.org>
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At 06:25 AM 11/27/2006, Shane Kerr wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>Mike StJohns wrote:
> > Please see also the other thread on the MX/A record issue in SO raised
> > by Rob Austein.
> >
> > My general question is "Are there any applications that care about
> > PNE?".   In other words, if validation is done only at the end-client,
> > are there any applications that will do different things for an output
> > of "bogus" vs a result of "invalid" or "unknown"?
>
><snip/>
>
> > PNE is used to differentiate between "unsecure" and "bogus" (e.g. that
> > the DS record didn't exist), and as a way of securely determining that a
> > negative answer you got was valid at the time you got it.  For the
> > latter, repeating a query at a later time is built into the protocol -
> > PNE may provide more efficiency, but may not be a cost effective
> > increase.  For the former, see the questions above.
>
>I admit not to really understanding this stuff, so apologies for my ignorance.
>
>Anyway, shouldn't the resolver handle the cases of bogus and unsecure
>differently? That is, if I get a bogus answer, shouldn't the resolver assume
>that this is an attacker, and wait for the valid response to appear or perhaps
>try a different name server?

In both cases, the answers are unsigned.  The question is not so much 
what I do for the bogus answer, but why I wouldn't do the same thing 
for the unsecure answer.  But the general policy in intermediate 
validating resolvers is to block bogus answers, but pass answers with 
a validation status of unsecure and unknown (e.g. no trust anchor).


>My understanding is a typical timeline for querying each delegation 
>point would
>look something like this:
>
>    while (NS left to query) and (time left) {
>       query to unused NS for zone
>       do {
>          receive signed list of NS from root
>       } while not (good signature) and (time left)
>    }
>
>Basically, if we get a reply with a bad signature we just ignore it (well, log
>it maybe). So, with PNE we avoid a class of DoS.
>
>With a resolver that works like this, the application would never get a bogus
>answer, or at least not until a bit of work has been done trying to get a
>non-bogus answer. So it's not really fair to ask "how would the application
>handle it differently", because the circumstances in which you get one or the
>other are slightly different.
>
>But maybe it doesn't work like this, and I'm just confused. :)
>
>- --
>Shane
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>--
>to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Nov 28 15:40:33 2006
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To: Ted Hardie <hardie@qualcomm.com>,Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>
From: Mike StJohns <Mike.StJohns@nominum.com>
Subject: Re: DNSSEC - Application use of Provable non-existence
Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
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At 01:21 PM 11/28/2006, Ted Hardie wrote:
>At 9:30 AM -0500 11/28/06, Edward Lewis wrote:
> >At 21:48 -0500 11/26/06, Mike StJohns wrote:
> >
> >>My general question is "Are there any applications that care about PNE?".
> >>In other words, if validation is done only at the end-client, are there
> >>any applications that will do different things for an output of "bogus" vs
> >>a result of "invalid" or "unknown"?
> >
> >That question ought to be sent to the Apps ADs.
>
>Also the RAI ADs, and the discuss@apps.ietf.org list, and possibly to the
>main IETF list as well.
>
>My personal, not-wearing hats answer to this is that the DNS model
>many applications  have had in the past is to treat non-existence as an
>error conditions which is reflected to the user, if there is a
>human user.  Those error conditions (like "Safari can't open the page
>"http://www.faurlsknjn.com/" because it can't find the server
>"www.faurlsknjn.com". ) prompt the user to check for mis-typings
>and other errors.  I believe that once we see more deployment of DNSSEC,
>similar errors reflected to the user will distinguish between bogus
>and the secured equivalent of the current non-existence.  There
>are already mailers and browsers which warn users if the strings in
>URIs may be attempts to confuse, and making the error conditions
>"bogus", "invalid", and "unknown" visible and distinguishable seems
>to me like a reasonable extension of the efforts already in place.

Hi Ted -

Without DNSSEC, if I type an invalid name, I get a DNS answer that 
suggests I should try again.

With a browser capable of PNE DNSSEC, if I type an invalid name I get 
a signed DNS answer that says the name doesn't exist at this time and 
suggests I should try again...

Hmm...

Or I can type an invalid name and get a bogus answer that suggests I 
should try again.

Or I can type an invalid name and get an unsecure answer that suggest 
I should try again.

Hmm...

Or I can type a valid name and both PNE and SO say its OK so I connect...

Or I can type a valid name, but the response comes back as 
unvalidated (missing sigs, etc) - I treat it with suspicion and maybe 
try again.


Both PNE and SO both agree that if a positive answer is signed all 
the way then you should use it - its all the other cases I can't 
quite get people to enumerate what they'll do.

As I said - PNE does provide more capability, but I can't get a 
consistent statement on what to do with that capability.

Mike




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Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 20:09:55 -0800
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[ Moderators note: Post was moderated, either because it was posted by
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Olaf,

Olaf M. Kolkman wrote:
> No, that is not what I am trying to say. I think that if you want to 
> 'design' a more general extension mechanism you should actually try to 
> pull this spec out of DKIM.

I think I know what you actually meant, here, but one possible interpretation of 
your text prompts me to seek clarification.

I assume you meant something like "you should specify your proposal in a way 
that does not refer to -- or rely on -- DKIM.  That is, you should specify it as 
a standalone proposal for enhancing DNS.

But you language was "try to pull this spec out of DKIM", which implies that it 
is currently *in* DKIM.  So, the interpretation that I assume you did *not* 
mean, but I want to make absolutely sure is:  You should modify the existing 
dkim-base (or any of the working group drafts) to remove this feature.

To my knowledge, this thread concerns material that is not currently part of any 
DKIM wg documents. If that is not correct, please do clarify and cite the 
relevant wg document and section.

I do apologize for being so pedantic, but the downside of all this is just big 
enough to be worth verifying what you really mean.


> Rereading that thread:
> I think that most folk seem to agree that the "**" (terminal) 
> super-wildcard could be implemented using a preprocessor [3], personally 

The DNSext group is among the small set of folks who are certain to be quite 
clear about what the existing DNS wildcard mechanism does and does not do. My 
own view s that it does what it was intended to do just fine, although of course 
it is quite different from most other searching and matching mechanisms that are 
called "wildcard".  But, then, the DNS is a very specific kind of query engine.

It just happens that there is another form of wildcard -- and may more than one 
additional form -- that folks *wish* were in DNS, but aren't.

My suspicion is that discussion will be greatly aided by creating new names for 
each proposed new functions, and the new names need to have essentially nothing 
to do with the semantics of existing names.  Names like "super-*" don't really 
have any differential semantics.

No, I'm not nit-picking.  I think that IETF discussions frequently bog down by 
having discussions that are too vague or too confusing, and that terminology can 
help remedy that.

More generally, I believe that proposals are greatly aided by having names that 
provide useful semantic insight into what is being proposed.

Whether "wildcard" was a good name for the existing DNS mechanism doesn't 
matter.  It has almost 25 years of history, so we are stuck with it.  New 
features need new names with different meanings.

I would suggest one, for the current topic, but I don't understand it well 
enough to know what would might work.


> On new RRs: We can continue to have long debates on how difficult it is 
> to introduce a new RR and weather or not the problems that we see with a 
> major systems vendor are real or not. I do not think that will lead 
> anywhere. Having said that: This working group is wrapping up RFC2929bis 
> which should ease the IANA process and at some point in the future, so 
> my crystal ball predicts, all systems will support unknown RRs and their 
> portable zone file representation.

It occurs to me that this debate about adding -- or rather, about relying on the 
*use of* -- new RRs has happened often enough and for enough years to warrant a 
BCP that attacks concerns, documents realities, and encourages a serious, 
community-wide vendor and operator clarification of reality.  It ought to have a 
title like "What it REALLY takes to get a new RR deployed and used in wide scale".


> I'm also not sure if and how you can avoid namespace clashes for 
> applications when you do not register the identifiers for "X". In that 
> sense I think that the effort by Dave [5] is sensible.

Given your second sentence, no one will be surprised that I believe that there 
is a long-term *certainty* that there *will be* collisions, absent a 
registration mechanism.

(I suppose the whole crypto/hash-based naming ideas that are being discussed for 
new Internet architectures could argue against this belief, but my understanding 
is that those statistical approaches are only for identifiers that are 
relatively short-lived.)


> Enjoy the turducken left-overs :-)

There seemed to be a foodie craze about that, a year or so ago.  And I've seen 
them pre-made and ready-to-cook in a nearby grocery store.

But somehow I cannot convince myself that the combination should produce a 
spectacular taste or texture.  So it seems like a clever idea, but not worth the 
effort.

Can anyone disabuse me of this naive belief?

d/
-- 

   Dave Crocker
   Brandenburg InternetWorking
   bbiw.net



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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Nov 28 15:41:49 2006
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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 14:20:29 -0500
To: Scott Rose <scottr@nist.gov>,namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
From: Mike StJohns <Mike.StJohns@nominum.com>
Subject: Re: DNSSEC - Intermediate Validation - Good or bad idea?
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At 08:21 AM 11/27/2006, Scott Rose wrote:
>Mike StJohns wrote:
><snip>
>>The counter argument to doing this is that the intermediate 
>>validator doesn't have enough information to make a good policy 
>>decision on what to do in this situation.  The validator would need 
>>additional information about why the DNS question was being asked 
>>to do the "right" thing. E.g. blocking the data for an HTTP 
>>connection might be the right idea, but blocking it for HTTPS is 
>>probably the wrong idea because the underlying TLS connection has a 
>>better validation scheme.
>Sometimes this is true, and sometimes it isn't.  In some 
>organizations, a centralized policy at the caching resolver is 
>easier to implement than upgrading all the stubs.  Since all of the 
>stubs will be following the same policy, it is easier to deploy and 
>manage at the recursive server than the stubs.

Agreed that it is easier to do central management, but this is like 
the old joke:

A guy is walking along the street and comes across another guy down 
on his hands and knees under a streetlight.  The walker watches for a 
moment and asks - "what are you doing?"  The guy on his knees replies 
- "I dropped a diamond ring and I'm trying to find it."  So the 
walker says "let me help", gets down on his own knees and proceeds to 
look for the ring too.  After about 15 minutes, the walker says "I 
can't find it - where exactly did you drop it?".  The other guy 
points to a location about 10 feet away and says "over there" - "Why 
are you looking here?" "Because the light better!"
It doesn't matter if you *can* do central management, if the results 
from doing it are bad - e.g. you're enforcing policy in the wrong 
location simply because it's easier.


One of the other emails on this thread suggest that "bogus" would 
most often result from an attack. I think that's probably a weak 
assumption.  I don't know how to characterize this as we have no 
data, but I'd be willing to bet that at least for the first few 
years, the bogus result will most (>>>) often come from bad 
administration (missing rrsigs, wrong set of rrs in an rrset so bad 
summary, absent DS, present DS but no associated DNSKEY in the tree, 
etc) as opposed to attacks.

[One way to gain some insight here might be to compare a number of 
zones delegated from .COM - specifically, look at the set of NS and 
glue A records at the parent and compare them to the set of NS 
records at the child along with the real A records - while this is 
not completely predictive, it might give some good ideas of the rate 
of administrative errors between parent and child]

So given the unsettled question of whether or not bogus will tend to 
be from real attacks or from mis-configurations, and given that 
certain applications (HTTPS, SIP, SSH, etc) have their own non-DNS 
validation approaches, does the benefit from preventing "really 
bogus" data from reaching a naive client for all queries outweigh the 
problems that come from preventing "administratively bogus" data from 
getting through?


>However, for roaming and solo DNS clients (whose upstream cache does 
>not belong to the same administrative entity), it makes sense to 
>have the end user do its own validation.  And eventually, validation 
>would be pushed down to all end users as upgrades are performed.

Yup.


>>One of the attacks on PNE DNSSEC would be a deletion attack on the 
>>proof that a sub zone wasn't signed.  In this case, perfectly valid 
>>data that should have been returned would be blocked by policy.
>>In general, the IETF and others have come down on the side of 
>>"synthesized answers bad" side of the argument when discussing 
>>things like "Sitefinder".  Is there a meaningful way to 
>>differentiate that general concept of answer synthesis from DNSSECs concept?
>>If there isn't, does the concept of intermediate validation 
>>continue to be reasonable for any version of DNSSEC?
>
>For some, it is reasonable to view intermediate validation as a 
>stepping stone along the deployment path.
>
>Scott
>
>>Mike
>>Mike
>>-- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with
>>the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body.
>>archive: <http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/>
>
>--
>----------------------------------------
>Scott Rose            Computer Scientist
>NIST
>ph: +1 301-975-8439
>scott.rose@nist.gov
>
>http://www-x.antd.nist.gov/dnssec
>http://www.dnssec-deployment.org/
>-----------------------------------------
>
>--
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<html>
<body>
At 08:21 AM 11/27/2006, Scott Rose wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Mike StJohns wrote:<br>
&lt;snip&gt;<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">The counter argument to doing
this is that the intermediate validator doesn't have enough information
to make a good policy decision on what to do in this situation.&nbsp; The
validator would need additional information about why the DNS question
was being asked to do the &quot;right&quot; thing. E.g. blocking the data
for an HTTP connection might be the right idea, but blocking it for HTTPS
is probably the wrong idea because the underlying TLS connection has a
better validation scheme.<br>
</blockquote>Sometimes this is true, and sometimes it isn't.&nbsp; In
some organizations, a centralized policy at the caching resolver is
easier to implement than upgrading all the stubs.&nbsp; Since all of the
stubs will be following the same policy, it is easier to deploy and
manage at the recursive server than the stubs.</blockquote><br>
Agreed that it is easier to do central management, but this is like the
old joke:<br><br>
<dl>
<dd>A guy is walking along the street and comes across another guy down
on his hands and knees under a streetlight.&nbsp; The walker watches for
a moment and asks - &quot;what are you doing?&quot;&nbsp; The guy on his
knees replies - &quot;I dropped a diamond ring and I'm trying to find
it.&quot;&nbsp; So the walker says &quot;let me help&quot;, gets down on
his own knees and proceeds to look for the ring too.&nbsp; After about 15
minutes, the walker says &quot;I can't find it - where exactly did you
drop it?&quot;.&nbsp; The other guy points to a location about 10 feet
away and says &quot;over there&quot; - &quot;Why are you looking
here?&quot; &quot;Because the light better!&quot;
</dl>It doesn't matter if you *can* do central management, if the results
from doing it are bad - e.g. you're enforcing policy in the wrong
location simply because it's easier.<br><br>
<br>
One of the other emails on this thread suggest that &quot;bogus&quot;
would most often result from an attack. I think that's probably a weak
assumption.&nbsp; I don't know how to characterize this as we have no
data, but I'd be willing to bet that at least for the first few years,
the bogus result will most (&gt;&gt;&gt;) often come from bad
administration (missing rrsigs, wrong set of rrs in an rrset so bad
summary, absent DS, present DS but no associated DNSKEY in the tree, etc)
as opposed to attacks.&nbsp; <br><br>
[One way to gain some insight here might be to compare a number of zones
delegated from .COM - specifically, look at the set of NS and glue A
records at the parent and compare them to the set of NS records at the
child along with the real A records - while this is not completely
predictive, it might give some good ideas of the rate of administrative
errors between parent and child]<br><br>
So given the unsettled question of whether or not bogus will tend to be
from real attacks or from mis-configurations, and given that certain
applications (HTTPS, SIP, SSH, etc) have their own non-DNS validation
approaches, does the benefit from preventing &quot;really bogus&quot;
data from reaching a naive client for all queries outweigh the problems
that come from preventing &quot;administratively bogus&quot; data from
getting through?  <br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">However, for roaming and solo
DNS clients (whose upstream cache does not belong to the same
administrative entity), it makes sense to have the end user do its own
validation.&nbsp; And eventually, validation would be pushed down to all
end users as upgrades are performed.</blockquote><br>
Yup.<br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">One of the attacks on PNE DNSSEC
would be a deletion attack on the proof that a sub zone wasn't
signed.&nbsp; In this case, perfectly valid data that should have been
returned would be blocked by policy.<br>
In general, the IETF and others have come down on the side of
&quot;synthesized answers bad&quot; side of the argument when discussing
things like &quot;Sitefinder&quot;.&nbsp; Is there a meaningful way to
differentiate that general concept of answer synthesis from DNSSECs
concept?<br>
If there isn't, does the concept of intermediate validation continue to
be reasonable for any version of DNSSEC?<br>
</blockquote><br>
For some, it is reasonable to view intermediate validation as a stepping
stone along the deployment path.<br><br>
Scott<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Mike<br>
Mike<br>
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NIST<br>
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Nov 28 15:41:55 2006
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From: Mike StJohns <Mike.StJohns@nominum.com>
Subject: Re: DNSSEC - Application use of Provable non-existence
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At 09:55 AM 11/27/2006, Suresh Krishnaswamy wrote:

>>My general question is "Are there any applications that care about 
>>PNE?".   In other words, if validation is done only at the 
>>end-client, are there any applications that will do different 
>>things for an output of "bogus" vs a result of "invalid" or "unknown"?
>>
>
>The general answer is that all applications, including Mozilla, may 
>care about PNE (depending on local policy). For instance I have 
>local policy on my machine configured like so:
>
>mozilla: zone-security-expectation
>.    ignore
>dnssec-tools.org   validate;
>
>On my machine Mozilla performs no validation by default. It returns 
>answers under the dnssec-tools.org domain only if they "validate ok" 
>or if the zone (under dnssec-tools.org), from where the data was 
>received, is provably insecure (PNE of the delegation's DS).
>
>I see a distinction between the PNE case above (where the parent has 
>made an explicit statement about the verifiability of data in the 
>child zone) and that of receiving a bogus or indeterminate answer.

OK - so you return data under dnssec-tools.org where you get a 
validated answer, where you get an unsigned answer with a proof of an 
unsecure delegation.  You also return data for every other point in 
the tree.  You only block data under dnssec-tools.org where it fails 
to validate, but there's not proof of an unsecure validation.

This still doesn't answer my general question.  You're setting policy 
for a zone you know about - you're not trusting the delegation from 
.org to make a decision about the zone.  Instead, if .org were 
signed, and you clicked into dnssec-tools.org - would you still use 
this policy (e.g..  ".org validate")?  How about for 
unknown-zone.org?  If its *you* making the decision rather than the 
browser, then you're really not having the browser do anything with PNE.


>Also, the trust anchor setting should not be the only mechanism to 
>decide the "zone security expectation" IMHO. Trusting or not 
>trusting the data under a provably insecure zone may also, 
>similarly, be a matter of policy.

I don't disagree here - but that then begs the question of whether or 
not you'd ever trust a provably unsecure zone as a matter of policy 
without knowing more about the zone than the secure/unsecure delegation policy.

E.g. how do you decide to trust or not trust?  If you're using data 
other than the secure/unsecure delegation, then why wouldn't you just 
use that other data and not even bother with the secure/unsecure stuff?

I'd really like it if about a dozen people answered the questions at 
the end of the email that started this thread and sent them to me 
privately so I could tabulate the answers and make them available to 
the list.  It would be helpful to understand how people intend to use 
the secure/unsecure indications.

Mike





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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Nov 28 15:42:18 2006
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From: Mike StJohns <Mike.StJohns@nominum.com>
Subject: Re: DNSSEC - Signature Only vs the MX/A issue. 
Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
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At 08:29 PM 11/27/2006, Mark Andrews wrote:

> > Rob Austein brought up one of the few issues that I hadn't previously
> > considered.
> >
> > His question - In the signature only model, what happens if an
> > attacker does a deletion attack on the MX record at a label forcing
> > the MTA to fall back to looking up the "A" record?
>
>         MX/A/AAAA deletion attack will result in mail bounce that
>         would otherwise be queued under PNE.
>
>         MTA's treat lookup failure differently to non-existance
>         results.

It's true that's the policy for existing MTAs (which are non-DNSSEC aware).

>Under SO you will have a lot of mail bounce which
>         otherwise wouldn't under PNE.

Not exactly - if you didn't actually consider the problem and 
mechanism for mitigating them you might be correct, but that's what 
this thread is about.  In any event, I think you'll agree that an SO 
zone is no worse than an unsigned zone.


>   If you are clever enough you
>         can also make the bounce, bounce, leading to silent loss
>         of the original email.
>
> > In PNE, this isn't an issue as you can determine whether or not the
> > MX record actually existed.
> >
> > > started querying for MX records.  At this point in time, I'd be
> > surprised if there are more than a very few MTAs that don't lead with
> > MX queries.  Anyone have data on any MTAs that don't lead with MX records.
>
>         There are lots of MX only mail domains.  I long ago (+10 years)
>         stopped worrying about MTAs that don't lookup MX records.
>
> > Of course, there may also be zones (or names within zones) that host
> > MTAs, but that don't also have MX records - anyone have data on this?
>
>         There are still lots of those.
>
> > I chatted briefly with John Klensin about deprecating this MX/A
> > alternate in the next revision to RFC2821 - comments on whether this
> > is a reasonable approach?
>
>         It would have been if we had said at the start that fallback
>         was only a N year transition mechanism.  These days the
>         education process would be too hard I think.

Looking solely at signed zones, if the strong suggestion were that a 
label not have both MX and A records - this could be implemented as 
the zones were signed.  A DNSSEC-capable MTA would still look for 
both records, but would never consider the A records as validated if 
they were the only ones retrieved from the label - somewhere between 
fully secure and bogus in the way it would be treated.

Regardless of PNE or SO, we need to think about how an MTA would 
actually use the DNSSEC data, and that really hasn't happened much yet.

>
> > Going forward, if an MTA is adapted to use SO, it may be a reasonable
> > policy to require MX records for a "validated" result.  If an MX
> > record doesn't exist, or if its unsigned, then the output of the
> > validator would be "unvalidated"  regardless of any validation on the
> > "A" alternate and the MTA would take whatever action is appropriate
> > for any unvalidated response. The guidance to use MX records would
> > added to the general guidance for anyone managing an SO zone.
>
>         There will be more than MX records.  SRV for lots of services
>         does / will require PNE.

Maybe.  MX/A are alternates for each other - both are considered 
valid for delivery so the deletion of the MX can still result in a 
valid A if the A is signed.  SRV records are linear - if any part of 
the lookup chain (SRV then A) fails validation, then that chain is 
invalid.  Deletion of the first part of the chain (e.g. the SRV 
records) results in failure not an alternate answer.

Again, this goes under the general discussion of what the policy for 
DNSSEC aware applications should be.  (And somewhat about how to 
handle wildcards)


>         Anything that is attempting to deliver a robust automated
>         service needs PNE.

This feels to be an assertion rather than a statement of fact.  I'd 
appreciate an expansion of your reasoning here.

>
> > Any other ideas in this general topic?
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with
> > the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body.
> > archive: <http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/>
>--
>Mark Andrews, ISC
>1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
>PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org


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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Nov 28 15:53:20 2006
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On Tue, Nov 28, 2006 at 03:13:50PM -0500,
 Mike StJohns <Mike.StJohns@nominum.com> wrote 
 a message of 25 lines which said:

> Not exactly.  See my previous note to Mark.  SO still protects the
> atomicity of an RRSet - you can delete ALL of the SRV records or
> none of them.  If you delete all of them at a label, the lookup
> fails and you can't proceed.

See Peter Koch's reply :-) Many protocols define a fallback outside of
the RRset. For instance, in
http://mirrors.isc.org/pub/www.watersprings.org/pub/id/draft-andrews-http-srv-01.txt,
there is a fallback from SRV to A.


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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Nov 28 16:04:47 2006
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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 15:58:42 -0500
To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
From: Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>
Subject: Re: DNSSEC - Application use of Provable non-existence
Cc: Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>
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I'll take Academy-Award Winners of 1974, Alex...

Reading this thread and something I already posted, I'm reminded of 
this movie quote:

She's my sister...
[slap]
She's my daughter...
[slap]

I'll leave out the movie name and the rest of the quote to keep from 
spoiling the scene in case you stumble across the movie sometime.

I mentioned that DNSSEC was always meant to protect the end unit. 
DNSSEC was originally pitched as a solution to cache poisoning, some 
in the security arena still claim that motivation.  DNSSEC was also 
at one time pitched as the security from the authoritative server 
outward to the fringe of the DNS constellation.  When the SIKED BoF 
as pitched it pushed forward the idea that DNSSEC could be leveraged 
for application security and the BoF was a smashing failure (if you 
measure success as achieving WG-hood).

Cache poisoning was "solved" by the trustworthiness rules and other 
clean up in RFC 2181.  Cache poisoning is still a vulnerability but 
much harder and less effective if the caches in the pipeline all 
implement RFC 2181 rules cleanly.  I.e., the protocol "fix" is done, 
it's up to implementations.

DNSSEC is only effective until the last validator (last in the path 
from authoritative server to the application using the data).  When 
DNS becomes the application, such as following a referral, the 
validator is in the application, meaning that DNSSEC would be fine 
way to secure the guts of the DNS.  ("Daughter, sister.")  This is 
why TSIG and TKEY were connived.

Given other discussions never recorded and then the SIKED (or was it 
SYKED?) BoF, DNSSEC has never successfully been integrated into the 
non-DNS application space.

I said that DNSSEC was about protecting the consuming side of the 
data.  I should have said the consuming DNS side of the data, not the 
application.

Given that, my impression of the PNE vs. SO debate is that the two 
approaches are solving different problems and as long as that is the 
case, we'll never have an end to the debate over the two.  PNE (aka 
DNSSEC) is what the servers need to protect themselves.  SO is 
optimized for what an application would want to know.  PNE is 
optimized for DNS, SO for applications.  The two have different needs.

I'm not trying to argue that we stay true to the DNSSEC/PNE 
principles.  And I'm not arguing against SO.  What I am trying to say 
is that debating between the two is not going to lead to a 
conclusion.  They are apples and oranges.

-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Edward Lewis                                                +1-571-434-5468
NeuStar

Dessert - aka Service Pack 1 for lunch.

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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:06:34 -0800
To: Mike StJohns <Mike.StJohns@nominum.com>,
        Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>
From: Ted Hardie <hardie@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: DNSSEC - Application use of Provable non-existence
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At 3:35 PM -0500 11/28/06, Mike StJohns wrote:
>
>Hi Ted -
>
>Without DNSSEC, if I type an invalid name, I get a DNS answer that suggests I should try again.

Not really. "try again" implies "try the same name again".  The answer you get
back from the DNS tells you that the name does not exist.  "Check your input" would
be a better quick summary of the advice to the user.     I think in the
message below, you're basically eliding the differences among the error messages
which are possible--making "Someone may be fooling you, try to get past it"
and "Check your input" and "This was asserted, but it may or may not be true"
all be the same.  While you can imagine that being the case (especially with a limited
UI), my personal take is that there are already programs which are provided
error-checking that is rich enough that providing distinguishable errors among
those will be done by some applications.   If you are arguing that helping people
create useful error messages from those conditions would be a good thing, I agree.
We have a lot of badness in the browser world because people collapsed
a whole set of security checks into a single token (the whole/broken key,
for example).

My personal opinion, as I said.

				Ted Hardie



>With a browser capable of PNE DNSSEC, if I type an invalid name I get a signed DNS answer that says the name doesn't exist at this time and suggests I should try again...
>
>Hmm...
>
>Or I can type an invalid name and get a bogus answer that suggests I should try again.
>
>Or I can type an invalid name and get an unsecure answer that suggest I should try again.
>
>Hmm...
>
>Or I can type a valid name and both PNE and SO say its OK so I connect...
>
>Or I can type a valid name, but the response comes back as unvalidated (missing sigs, etc) - I treat it with suspicion and maybe try again.
>
>
>Both PNE and SO both agree that if a positive answer is signed all the way then you should use it - its all the other cases I can't quite get people to enumerate what they'll do.
>
>As I said - PNE does provide more capability, but I can't get a consistent statement on what to do with that capability.
>
>Mike
>
>
>
>
>--
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Nov 28 16:12:22 2006
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To: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
From: Mike StJohns <Mike.StJohns@nominum.com>
Subject: Re: DNSSEC - Signature Only vs the MX/A issue.
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Not exactly.  See my previous note to Mark.  SO still protects the 
atomicity of an RRSet - you can delete ALL of the SRV records or none 
of them.  If you delete all of them at a label, the lookup fails and 
you can't proceed.  If you do retrieve the SRV records and then 
lookup the referenced A records, the worse that can happen is that 
one or more of the individual A records is deleted and an attacker 
can steer you to one specific system (from the list of validated names).


At 08:58 AM 11/28/2006, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:
>On Sun, Nov 26, 2006 at 10:26:55PM -0500,
>  Mike StJohns <Mike.StJohns@nominum.com> wrote
>  a message of 51 lines which said:
>
> > I chatted briefly with John Klensin about deprecating this MX/A
> > alternate in the next revision to RFC2821 - comments on whether this
> > is a reasonable approach?
>
>Unfortunately, there are other records that are vulnerable to this
>attack (SRV, NAPTR), not just MX.
>
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Subject: Re: DNSSEC - Off-tree signatures
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Edward Lewis wrote:
> At 17:34 -0500 11/27/06, David Blacka wrote:
> 
>> that is difficult to forge.  DNSSEC accomplishes this by following a
>> rigid chain of trust, DLV does so by issuing a query for the DLV record.
> 
> Yes, the chain is rigid, but it need not be, that was my point.  DLV is
> one degree less rigid than what's in RFC 3008.
>
>> Supplying a false answer to this question is a downgrade attack.
> 
> I'm not sure what "this question" is...

The question I started out with: "Is this response supposed to be signed?"

> Perhaps there is no better model for DNSSEC than RFC 3008+DLV, but it is
> not because the design of DNSSEC sought that.  Perhaps it is ultimately
> impossible in theory too, but we never worked on finding that proof.

I'm suggesting that the approach you+others were investigating all that
time ago was not going to work out, because it didn't account for
answering the "Is this response supposed to be signed?" question.

I'm not saying that 3008 was inevitable.  I'm just trying to state the
central issue that some other technique would have to solve.

-- 
David Blacka                      <davidb@verisignlabs.com>
Sr. Engineer    VeriSign Infrastructure Product Engineering


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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 16:30:39 -0500
From: Robert Story <rstory@sparta.com>
To: Mike StJohns <Mike.StJohns@nominum.com>
Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: DNSSEC - Intermediate Validation - Good or bad idea?
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On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 20:41:57 -0500 Mike wrote:
MS> The counter argument to doing this is that the intermediate validator=20
MS> doesn't have enough information to make a good policy decision on=20
MS> what to do in this situation.  The validator would need additional=20
MS> information about why the DNS question was being asked to do the=20
MS> "right" thing. E.g. blocking the data for an HTTP connection might be=20
MS> the right idea, but blocking it for HTTPS is probably the wrong idea=20
MS> because the underlying TLS connection has a better validation scheme.

I think you are right that the validator doesn't have enough
information to make a good policy decision for all cases. But I think
'better safe than sorry' is a good default. Applications that think
they can do better already have a mechanism for doing so - setting the
CD bit.


MS> In general, the IETF and others have come down on the side of=20
MS> "synthesized answers bad" side of the argument when discussing things=20
MS> like "Sitefinder". Is there a meaningful way to differentiate that=20
MS> general concept of answer synthesis from DNSSECs concept?

Sitefinder is a horse of a completely different color. Redirecting a
user to somewhere they didn't ask for is nothing like redirecting a
user away from somewhere that might not be what they think it is. It's
deception vs protection.

--=20
Robert Story
SPARTA

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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 17:16:43 -0500
To: David Blacka <davidb@verisignlabs.com>
From: Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>
Subject: Re: DNSSEC - Off-tree signatures
Cc: Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>,
        Mike StJohns <Mike.StJohns@nominum.com>, namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
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At 16:14 -0500 11/28/06, David Blacka wrote:

>I'm suggesting that the approach you+others were investigating all that
>time ago was not going to work out, because it didn't account for
>answering the "Is this response supposed to be signed?" question.

Believe me, sigh, I only wish I was paid by the hour!

To disagree a bit - the "is this supposed to be signed" was the 
central question of all of the schemes.  The achilles' heel [1] was 
keeping the DNSSEC processing time bounded and the "chain of trust" 
only passing through authorized zones.

Either way, if you do falsify the answer to the question, it's a 
downgrade one way or another.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles%27_heel
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Edward Lewis                                                +1-571-434-5468
NeuStar

Dessert - aka Service Pack 1 for lunch.

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> OK - so you return data under dnssec-tools.org where you get a  
> validated answer, where you get an unsigned answer with a proof of  
> an unsecure delegation.  You also return data for every other point  
> in the tree.  You only block data under dnssec-tools.org where it  
> fails to validate, but there's not proof of an unsecure validation.
>
> This still doesn't answer my general question.  You're setting  
> policy for a zone you know about - you're not trusting the  
> delegation from .org to make a decision about the zone.  Instead,  
> if .org were signed, and you clicked into dnssec-tools.org - would  
> you still use this policy (e.g..  ".org validate")?  How about for  
> unknown-zone.org?  If its *you* making the decision rather than the  
> browser, then you're really not having the browser do anything with  
> PNE.
>

I will still trust the delegation from 'dnssec-tools.org' to  
'test.dnssec-tools.org' to make a decision about data within the  
test.dnssec-tools.org zone. Same thing for 'insecure-ns.test.dnssec- 
tools.org', which is an example of a provably insecure delegation  
under test -- there's no specific statement of trust I make for the  
'insecure-ns.test.dnssec-tools.org' zone. If org were signed, my  
policy would change to "org. validate".  I'd then trust org to give  
me either a secure entry point to (or a PNE for) unknown-zone.org  
before I'd be willing to trust any data from it.  I need to have some  
knowledge of where the roots of the trust-islands  lie, but nothing  
beyond that. I can choose to trust or not trust other zones beyond  
what PNE gives me, but that's again local policy.

The main point here is that I am treating PNE differently from bogus  
and indeterminate.

>
>> Also, the trust anchor setting should not be the only mechanism to  
>> decide the "zone security expectation" IMHO. Trusting or not  
>> trusting the data under a provably insecure zone may also,  
>> similarly, be a matter of policy.
>
> I don't disagree here - but that then begs the question of whether  
> or not you'd ever trust a provably unsecure zone as a matter of  
> policy without knowing more about the zone than the secure/unsecure  
> delegation policy.
>

I would, indeed. If the parent zone has specifically marked a zone as  
unsigned, I may want to defer to its judgement. I think this just  
scales much better. I can always override this policy if I need to  
for specific zones that I have knowledge about, but I expect this to  
only happen for the initial couple of years when deployment is still  
sparse. The policy knob that decides whether the provably insecure  
delegation is trusted or not, is again something I see as being used  
only in specialized environments -- certainly the exception, not the  
rule.



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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Nov 28 18:00:01 2006
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To: Mike StJohns <Mike.StJohns@nominum.com>
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From: Mark Andrews <Mark_Andrews@isc.org>
Subject: Re: DNSSEC - Signature Only vs the MX/A issue. 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 28 Nov 2006 15:10:47 CDT."
             <20061128203531.0DF685687B@shell-ng.nominum.com> 
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> At 08:29 PM 11/27/2006, Mark Andrews wrote:
> 
> > > Rob Austein brought up one of the few issues that I hadn't previously
> > > considered.
> > >
> > > His question - In the signature only model, what happens if an
> > > attacker does a deletion attack on the MX record at a label forcing
> > > the MTA to fall back to looking up the "A" record?
> >
> >         MX/A/AAAA deletion attack will result in mail bounce that
> >         would otherwise be queued under PNE.
> >
> >         MTA's treat lookup failure differently to non-existance
> >         results.
> 
> It's true that's the policy for existing MTAs (which are non-DNSSEC aware).
> 
> >Under SO you will have a lot of mail bounce which
> >         otherwise wouldn't under PNE.
> 
> Not exactly - if you didn't actually consider the problem and 
> mechanism for mitigating them you might be correct, but that's what 
> this thread is about.  In any event, I think you'll agree that an SO 
> zone is no worse than an unsigned zone.
> 
> 
> >   If you are clever enough you
> >         can also make the bounce, bounce, leading to silent loss
> >         of the original email.
> >
> > > In PNE, this isn't an issue as you can determine whether or not the
> > > MX record actually existed.
> > >
> > > > started querying for MX records.  At this point in time, I'd be
> > > surprised if there are more than a very few MTAs that don't lead with
> > > MX queries.  Anyone have data on any MTAs that don't lead with MX records
> .
> >
> >         There are lots of MX only mail domains.  I long ago (+10 years)
> >         stopped worrying about MTAs that don't lookup MX records.
> >
> > > Of course, there may also be zones (or names within zones) that host
> > > MTAs, but that don't also have MX records - anyone have data on this?
> >
> >         There are still lots of those.
> >
> > > I chatted briefly with John Klensin about deprecating this MX/A
> > > alternate in the next revision to RFC2821 - comments on whether this
> > > is a reasonable approach?
> >
> >         It would have been if we had said at the start that fallback
> >         was only a N year transition mechanism.  These days the
> >         education process would be too hard I think.
> 
> Looking solely at signed zones, if the strong suggestion were that a 
> label not have both MX and A records - this could be implemented as 
> the zones were signed.  A DNSSEC-capable MTA would still look for 
> both records, but would never consider the A records as validated if 
> they were the only ones retrieved from the label - somewhere between 
> fully secure and bogus in the way it would be treated.

	Crazy idea.
 
> Regardless of PNE or SO, we need to think about how an MTA would 
> actually use the DNSSEC data, and that really hasn't happened much yet.
> 
> >
> > > Going forward, if an MTA is adapted to use SO, it may be a reasonable
> > > policy to require MX records for a "validated" result.  If an MX
> > > record doesn't exist, or if its unsigned, then the output of the
> > > validator would be "unvalidated"  regardless of any validation on the
> > > "A" alternate and the MTA would take whatever action is appropriate
> > > for any unvalidated response. The guidance to use MX records would
> > > added to the general guidance for anyone managing an SO zone.
> >
> >         There will be more than MX records.  SRV for lots of services
> >         does / will require PNE.
> 
> Maybe.  MX/A are alternates for each other - both are considered 

	No, they are not alternates.  It is A iff there is no MX.

	There are plenty of domains where the MX goes to in house
	machine and the A goes to a web servers which is hosted by
	a third party.

	If you spoof away the existance of the MX then the email
	gets delivered to the web hosting box which can be legitimately
	running a MTA for its own use.

	PNE provides protection against this sort of misdirection.

> valid for delivery so the deletion of the MX can still result in a 
> valid A if the A is signed.  SRV records are linear - if any part of 
> the lookup chain (SRV then A) fails validation, then that chain is 
> invalid.  Deletion of the first part of the chain (e.g. the SRV 
> records) results in failure not an alternate answer.
> 
> Again, this goes under the general discussion of what the policy for 
> DNSSEC aware applications should be.  (And somewhat about how to 
> handle wildcards)
> 
> 
> >         Anything that is attempting to deliver a robust automated
> >         service needs PNE.
> 
> This feels to be an assertion rather than a statement of fact.  I'd 
> appreciate an expansion of your reasoning here.

	Without PNE you just have to blindly trust that a negative
	answer is correct.  With PNE you have a an assurance that a 
	negative answer is correct and you can take different steps
	to recover when under attack (e.g. log an error and store for
	retry).
 
> > > Any other ideas in this general topic?
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with
> > > the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body.
> > > archive: <http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/>
> >--
> >Mark Andrews, ISC
> >1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
> >PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org
> 
-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org

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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 17:52:42 -0500
To: Dave Crocker <dcrocker@bbiw.net>
From: Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>
Subject: Re: Non-terminal-wildcards Re: SRV records considered dubious
Cc: IETF DNSEXT WG <namedroppers@ops.ietf.org>,
        Phillip Hallam-Baker <pbaker@verisign.com>,
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At 20:09 -0800 11/24/06, Dave Crocker wrote:

>It just happens that there is another form of wildcard -- and may more than
>  one additional form -- that folks *wish* were in DNS, but aren't.

This came up in when editing RFC 4592, I forget now, 2003 at least. 
(I'm sure that wasn't the first time, but still, it's been a while 
since even then.)

"Wildcards" is a term used to define a particular form of answer 
synthesis that appears in RFC 1034.  The synthesis is woven into the 
base level zone replication protocol (AXFR), woven in to the base 
level answering algorithm (RFC 1034, 4.3.2).  Since then it is also 
woven into DNSSEC and synthesizing negative answers at caches (maybe, 
I think, I forget how the debate tilts).

There is clearly a demand for a more feature-rich form of answer 
synthesis in DNS.  Wildcards are not intentionally an obstacle to 
meeting that demand.  The biggest obstacle has been the lack of any 
documented proposal that has stood the flames of the WG.

If I were to judge a synthesis approach, here are my rough 
guidelines.  The first step to defining any approach to answer 
synthesis is to determine what is to be achieved.  How are the 
synthesis rules included in a zone transfer?  (I don't especially 
care if the rules appear in the zone file, but they have to be 
transmitted to the slaves.)  What role does the synthesis take in the 
way in which a server prepares an answer?  How is DNSSEC impacted, as 
well as any potential synthesis at caches?

There may be many synthesis approaches that can be accommodated.  The 
approaches may require all authoritative servers for a zone using the 
synthesis to meet an new RFC, this would be acceptable so long as 
caches do not have to perform special processing.

-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Edward Lewis                                                +1-571-434-5468
NeuStar

Dessert - aka Service Pack 1 for lunch.

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        IETF DNSEXT WG <namedroppers@ops.ietf.org>,
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From: Mark Andrews <Mark_Andrews@isc.org>
Subject: Re: Non-terminal-wildcards Re: SRV records considered dubious 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 28 Nov 2006 17:52:42 CDT."
             <a06230919c19269252c4c@[192.168.1.102]> 
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> At 20:09 -0800 11/24/06, Dave Crocker wrote:
> 
> >It just happens that there is another form of wildcard -- and may more than
> >  one additional form -- that folks *wish* were in DNS, but aren't.
> 
> This came up in when editing RFC 4592, I forget now, 2003 at least. 
> (I'm sure that wasn't the first time, but still, it's been a while 
> since even then.)
> 
> "Wildcards" is a term used to define a particular form of answer 
> synthesis that appears in RFC 1034.  The synthesis is woven into the 
> base level zone replication protocol (AXFR), woven in to the base 
> level answering algorithm (RFC 1034, 4.3.2).  Since then it is also 
> woven into DNSSEC and synthesizing negative answers at caches (maybe, 
> I think, I forget how the debate tilts).

	Not for wildcards as the cache doesn't have enough information
	to decide when it can do it.

	You are thinking of DNAME which was designed to allow for
	synthesis in caches.
 
> There is clearly a demand for a more feature-rich form of answer 
> synthesis in DNS.  Wildcards are not intentionally an obstacle to 
> meeting that demand.  The biggest obstacle has been the lack of any 
> documented proposal that has stood the flames of the WG.
> 
> If I were to judge a synthesis approach, here are my rough 
> guidelines.  The first step to defining any approach to answer 
> synthesis is to determine what is to be achieved.  How are the 
> synthesis rules included in a zone transfer?  (I don't especially 
> care if the rules appear in the zone file, but they have to be 
> transmitted to the slaves.)  What role does the synthesis take in the 
> way in which a server prepares an answer?  How is DNSSEC impacted, as 
> well as any potential synthesis at caches?
> 
> There may be many synthesis approaches that can be accommodated.  The 
> approaches may require all authoritative servers for a zone using the 
> synthesis to meet an new RFC, this would be acceptable so long as 
> caches do not have to perform special processing.
> 
> -- 
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Edward Lewis                                                +1-571-434-5468
> NeuStar
> 
> Dessert - aka Service Pack 1 for lunch.
> 
> --
> to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with
> the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body.
> archive: <http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/>
-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org

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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 16:42:49 -0500
From: Josh Littlefield <joshl@cisco.com>
Organization: Cisco Systems
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Subject: Re: DNSSEC - Signature Only vs the MX/A issue.
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Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 28, 2006 at 03:13:50PM -0500,
>  Mike StJohns <Mike.StJohns@nominum.com> wrote 
>  a message of 25 lines which said:
> 
>> Not exactly.  See my previous note to Mark.  SO still protects the
>> atomicity of an RRSet - you can delete ALL of the SRV records or
>> none of them.  If you delete all of them at a label, the lookup
>> fails and you can't proceed.
> 
> See Peter Koch's reply :-) Many protocols define a fallback outside of
> the RRset. For instance, in
> http://mirrors.isc.org/pub/www.watersprings.org/pub/id/draft-andrews-http-srv-01.txt,
> there is a fallback from SRV to A.

Similarly, RFC 3263 defines fallback from NAPTR to SRV (at a different
but related name), followed by fallback to A and AAAA.

-- 
=====================================================================
Josh Littlefield                                  Cisco Systems, Inc.
joshl@cisco.com                             1414 Massachusetts Avenue
tel: 978-936-1379  fax: 978-936-2226       Boxborough, MA  01719-2205

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Nov 28 19:55:37 2006
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 02:45:37 +0200
To: Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>
Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Trustworthiness rules
In-Reply-To: <a06230914c1924f531f2b@[192.168.1.102]>
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Edward Lewis wrote:
> Cache poisoning was "solved" by the trustworthiness rules and other 
> clean up in RFC 2181.  Cache poisoning is still a vulnerability but 
> much harder and less effective if the caches in the pipeline all 
> implement RFC 2181 rules cleanly.

I agree that the cache poisoning problem has been solved, for most
practical purposes, by caching servers implementing anti-poisoning
rules.

However, I must point out that the specific rules in RFC2181 are in
fact not an effective defense against cache poisoning, and that the
immunity against poisoning enjoyed by current caching servers stems
from a completely different rule that is still not stated in any IETF
document.

There are several variations of this rule, but in its simplest form,
it says that when a caching server queries the authoritative servers
of a given domain, it must discard all response records whose owner
name is outside that domain.

IMO, not only do we need to put this rule in a standards document, 
but RFC2181 section 5.4.1 should go away.
-- 
Andreas Gustafsson, gson@araneus.fi

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Nov 28 20:57:56 2006
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From: David Blacka <davidb@verisignlabs.com>
Subject: Re: Trustworthiness rules
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 20:52:02 -0500
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On Nov 28, 2006, at 7:45 PM, Andreas Gustafsson wrote:

> Edward Lewis wrote:
>> Cache poisoning was "solved" by the trustworthiness rules and other
>> clean up in RFC 2181.  Cache poisoning is still a vulnerability but
>> much harder and less effective if the caches in the pipeline all
>> implement RFC 2181 rules cleanly.
>
> I agree that the cache poisoning problem has been solved, for most
> practical purposes, by caching servers implementing anti-poisoning
> rules.
>
> However, I must point out that the specific rules in RFC2181 are in
> fact not an effective defense against cache poisoning, and that the
> immunity against poisoning enjoyed by current caching servers stems
> from a completely different rule that is still not stated in any IETF
> document.
>
> There are several variations of this rule, but in its simplest form,
> it says that when a caching server queries the authoritative servers
> of a given domain, it must discard all response records whose owner
> name is outside that domain.

Yes!

And for this reason, authoritative servers shouldn't bother following  
CNAME chains outside the zone, since resolvers will just discard  
those records.

> IMO, not only do we need to put this rule in a standards document,
> but RFC2181 section 5.4.1 should go away.

It is useful to point out that caches should not promote additional  
section data to authority or answer sections, though.

--
David Blacka    <davidb@verisignlabs.com>
Sr. Engineer    VeriSign Applied Research


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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Nov 28 22:42:57 2006
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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 22:33:18 -0500
To: Mark Andrews <Mark_Andrews@isc.org>
From: Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>
Subject: Re: Non-terminal-wildcards Re: SRV records considered dubious
Cc: Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>, Dave Crocker <dcrocker@bbiw.net>,
        IETF DNSEXT WG <namedroppers@ops.ietf.org>,
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At 10:22 +1100 11/29/06, Mark Andrews wrote:

>	You are thinking of DNAME which was designed to allow for
>	synthesis in caches.

Ah, yeah...
-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Edward Lewis                                                +1-571-434-5468
NeuStar

Dessert - aka Service Pack 1 for lunch.

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[1128][m13]



From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Nov 29 06:12:18 2006
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From: bert hubert <bert.hubert@netherlabs.nl>
To: Andreas Gustafsson <gson@araneus.fi>
Cc: Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>, namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: Trustworthiness rules
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On Wed, Nov 29, 2006 at 02:45:37AM +0200, Andreas Gustafsson wrote:

> There are several variations of this rule, but in its simplest form,
> it says that when a caching server queries the authoritative servers
> of a given domain, it must discard all response records whose owner
> name is outside that domain.

Just to rehash, this could be added to chapter 3 of
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hubert-dns-anti-spoofing-00.txt

	Bert

-- 
http://www.PowerDNS.com      Open source, database driven DNS Software 
http://netherlabs.nl              Open and Closed source services

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Subject: Re: DNSSEC - Application use of Provable non-existence
References: <20061127032712.096F15688E@shell-ng.nominum.com> <456ACB19.3020706@isc.org> <20061128203525.E477E56860@shell-ng.nominum.com>
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Mike StJohns wrote:
> Anyway, shouldn't the resolver handle the cases of bogus and unsecure
> differently? That is, if I get a bogus answer, shouldn't the resolver
> assume
> that this is an attacker, and wait for the valid response to appear or
> perhaps
> try a different name server?
> 
>> In both cases, the answers are unsigned.  The question is not so much
>> what I do for the bogus answer, but why I wouldn't do the same thing for
>> the unsecure answer.  But the general policy in intermediate validating
>> resolvers is to block bogus answers, but pass answers with a validation
>> status of unsecure and unknown (e.g. no trust anchor).

I don't understand.

- - If "unsecure" means "an unsigned response that should have been signed", then
it is the same as "bogus". I'd expect the resolver to drop these.

- - If "unsecure" means "no signed DS chain from a trust anchor", then I would
expect the resolver to use these. A browser could handle this the same as SSL
certificates, and let the user know whether or not the DNS is secure.

If there is PNE, then the nice dialog that Firefox throws up can have a shining
picture indicating that the not only is there no address for this name, but that
we're "sure". I guess this is what was meant when the speaker said "I have an
application today... Firefox!"

For non-interactive applications... I don't know. The possible attack is DoS,
right? I guess some analysis of classes of non-interactive applications can be
made, but my intuition tells me that most applications will need to handle this
attack in a unique way.

- --
Shane
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<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>Company:</b> Bralorne Mining Company (<b>BLNM.OB</b>) is China Telcom & China Netcom's</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Primary VOIP Network Agent.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Huge VOIP Contract Signed With Beijing Oriental Inc.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D3><b>BLNM.OB Price Climbs 81% and Volume is up 10000% In Just Three Days Trading! It's not to late to get in!</b></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>BLNM, via Beijing QTC, lands another huge contract with Beijing Oriental Inc. Beijing Oriental Inc. is China's leading exhibition and conference holding company. Beijing QTC (BLNM) agrees to provide Beijing Oriental with its 3GenisIP Integrated Access System. This provides them with local, and long distance calling, international numbers and a broadband connection in a single solution.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>BLNM.OB</b> is now Authorized in many cities and provinces in China by the two giant telecoms, China Netcom and China Telecom, as the primary authorized VoIP network agent.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This company keeps expanding. They are landing one deal after another. And they are fast become one of the big players in the worlds fastest growing telcom market. This news will make BLNM make huge jumps in the market tomorrow. BLNM has already climbed 82% since last week when these series of news releases began.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b><u>Stay ahead of the growth, get on board with BLNM Wed morning, first thing.</u></b></FONT></DIV>
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Nov 29 09:57:43 2006
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On 25Nov 2006, at 5:09 AM, Dave Crocker wrote:
> Olaf M. Kolkman wrote:
>> No, that is not what I am trying to say. I think that if you want  
>> to 'design' a more general extension mechanism you should actually  
>> try to pull this spec out of DKIM.
>
> I think I know what you actually meant, here, but one possible  
> interpretation of your text prompts me to seek clarification.
>
> I assume you meant something like "you should specify your proposal  
> in a way that does not refer to -- or rely on -- DKIM.  That is,  
> you should specify it as a standalone proposal for enhancing DNS.
>
> But you language was "try to pull this spec out of DKIM", which  
> implies that it is currently *in* DKIM.  So, the interpretation  
> that I assume you did *not* mean, but I want to make absolutely  
> sure is:  You should modify the existing dkim-base (or any of the  
> working group drafts) to remove this feature.
>
> To my knowledge, this thread concerns material that is not  
> currently part of any DKIM wg documents. If that is not correct,  
> please do clarify and cite the relevant wg document and section.
>
> I do apologize for being so pedantic, but the downside of all this  
> is just big enough to be worth verifying what you really mean.

Thank you for bringing this up.

I did try to say that the design of the DNS extension mechanism  
should be specified so that it can stand on it own. Application  
neutral, so to speak.

>
>
>> Rereading that thread:
>> I think that most folk seem to agree that the "**" (terminal)  
>> super-wildcard could be implemented using a preprocessor [3],  
>> personally
>
> The DNSext group is among the small set of folks who are certain to  
> be quite clear about what the existing DNS wildcard mechanism does  
> and does not do. My own view s that it does what it was intended to  
> do just fine, although of course it is quite different from most  
> other searching and matching mechanisms that are called  
> "wildcard".  But, then, the DNS is a very specific kind of query  
> engine.
>
> It just happens that there is another form of wildcard -- and may  
> more than one additional form -- that folks *wish* were in DNS, but  
> aren't.
>
> My suspicion is that discussion will be greatly aided by creating  
> new names for each proposed new functions, and the new names need  
> to have essentially nothing to do with the semantics of existing  
> names.  Names like "super-*" don't really have any differential  
> semantics.

Good point. I tried to carefully draft the functionality, but today I  
lost the ability to write comprehensively in a non-native  
language .... Ed, this is your queue ;-)

(...skip...)


>
>> Enjoy the turducken left-overs :-)
>
> There seemed to be a foodie craze about that, a year or so ago.   
> And I've seen them pre-made and ready-to-cook in a nearby grocery  
> store.
>
> But somehow I cannot convince myself that the combination should  
> produce a spectacular taste or texture.  So it seems like a clever  
> idea, but not worth the effort.
>
> Can anyone disabuse me of this naive belief?

Off-list pleas (But do CC me, epicurean experiments have my interest)



-----------------------------------------------------------
Olaf M. Kolkman
NLnet Labs
http://www.nlnetlabs.nl/




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Subject: Re: Non-terminal-wildcards Re: SRV records considered dubious
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At 15:41 +0100 11/29/06, Olaf M. Kolkman wrote:

>Good point. I tried to carefully draft the functionality, but today I lost the
>ability to write comprehensively in a non-native language .... Ed, this is
>your queue ;-)

Cue not queue.  Oh, what's that about native languages? ;)

I ain't about to say "let's get requirements together" (#2 on the 
list of stalling comments, #1 being "read the archives") but if 
anyone has a concrete idea, document it - the good old-fashioned 
tradition of running code is very helpful.  And give it a cool name.

-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Edward Lewis                                                +1-571-434-5468
NeuStar

Dessert - aka Service Pack 1 for lunch.

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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
directories.
This draft is a work item of the DNS Extensions Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Requirements related to DNSSEC Trust Anchor Rollover
	Author(s)	: S. Crocker, et al.
	Filename	: draft-ietf-dnsext-rollover-requirements-04.txt
	Pages		: 11
	Date		: 2006-11-29
	
Every DNS security-aware resolver must have at least one Trust Anchor
   to use as the basis for validating responses from DNS signed zones.
   For various reasons, most DNS security-aware resolvers are expected
   to have several Trust Anchors.  For some operations, manual
   monitoring and updating of Trust Anchors may be feasible but many
   operations will require automated methods for updating Trust Anchors
   in their security-aware resolvers.  This document identifies the
   requirements that must be met by an automated DNS Trust Anchor
   rollover solution for security-aware DNS resolvers.

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Nov 29 11:20:00 2006
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Subject: RE: Non-terminal-wildcards Re: SRV records considered dubious
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 08:11:03 -0800
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To: "Olaf M. Kolkman" <olaf@NLnetLabs.nl>, "Dave Crocker" <dcrocker@bbiw.net>
Cc: "IETF DNSEXT WG" <namedroppers@ops.ietf.org>,
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> From: Olaf M. Kolkman [mailto:olaf@NLnetLabs.nl]=20

One point to make at the start here, this discussion does not have any
relevance to the last call on DKIM BASE. It does have an important
bearing on DKIM policy but that has not yet been designed.

The architectural issue here is whether DKIM is a 'one off' or an
architectural template for others to follow. I am proposing an
architecture where SRV records and policy records essentially replace
port numbers. So I am anticipating a few hundred entry points being
defined each year.


> I did try to say that the design of the DNS extension=20
> mechanism should be specified so that it can stand on it own.=20
> Application neutral, so to speak.

I am trying to get the document released. Unfortunately I have to make
sure that if there are any novel ideas there that the IP gets locked
down first. I am pretty sure that there is prior art in the Grid Forum
and earlier work. But it takes considerably greater inginuity to work
out the anteceedents than to solve the problem in the first place.

The reason for this is not because we are under any idiotic notion that
it would be possible for VeriSign to profit from a patent but because
others might imagine that they could. And yes there are folk who read
IETF mailing lists and then file patents on other people's ideas, I call
them perjurers, the USPTO calls them inventors.


The DNS was originally conceived as a means of providing an indirection
layer so that people could address a HOST by name rather than address.
MX changed that model. The name now identifies a SERVICE rather than a
HOST.

All I am proposing to do is to take this concept to its logical
conclusion in a way that does not violate the core constraints on DNS
(update times, bandwidth, transactions).


On the topic of 'wildcards'

There are two acknowledged issues here. The first is that a DNS wildcard
does not do what you would want for default policy, the second is that
wildcards cannot be defined on wildcard records.

The first problem is that the requirement has been given the same name
as the technical solution that does not match.

So don't talk about the need for 'wildcard' policy records, the
requirement is for default policy records, that is a policy record that
applies to any node in the zone whether or not it exists. Defining such
a record will require multiple entries in the zone file but these can be
easily added by a preprocessor as everyone agrees. The only reason to
document it is that otherwise we keep returning to the discussion.
Perhaps a short informational would clear up the issue.


The second issue has been discussed.


The third issue is that when you have a large number of policies to
manage you will want to be able to manage hosts by class and not
individually. That is you will want to be able to set out a list of
policies that relate to a desktop machine and then drop a policy record
that says 'this is a desktop'.



> > My suspicion is that discussion will be greatly aided by=20
> creating new=20
> > names for each proposed new functions, and the new names=20
> need to have=20
> > essentially nothing to do with the semantics of existing=20
> names.  Names=20
> > like "super-*" don't really have any differential semantics.
>=20
> Good point. I tried to carefully draft the functionality, but=20
> today I lost the ability to write comprehensively in a=20
> non-native language .... Ed, this is your queue ;-)

I agree here as well, when wildcards were first described they were
almost an afterthought. Then folk realized that they wanted to be able
to zone transfer them and so they crept into the spec but in a
half-baked way. Then when DNSSEC came along we discovered that the
loosey-goosey description was a real liability.

So regardless of CHOICES we should describe a 'super-wildcard', or as I
would call it a default record.


We need to agree a common symbol. I see only two real possibilities. The
question mark ?, unfortunately that has a widespread use as a single
character match. The double asterisk ** looks like it is the one to use.


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From mwstlqwbxh@cello.hpl.hp.com Wed Nov 29 23:21:12 2006
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<BODY>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D3><i><b>BLNM Becomes Primary VOIP Agent For China Telcom and China Netcom!</b></i></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D3>Huge VOIP Contract gets Signed With Beijing Oriental Inc.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>Company:</b> Bralorne Mining Company</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>Sym:</b> BLNM.OB</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>Price:</b> $0.27</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>BLNM.OB</b> is the primary VOIP agent for China's two largest telecoms, China Telcom and China Netcom. This is fast pushing them to <b>become a major player in the worlds fastest growing telecommunications market</b>.
</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Additionally, they have now signed contract to provide 3GenisIP service to Beijing Oriental which in turn exposes them to over 300 national and international clients of Beijing Oriental.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b><u>This company is growing in leaps and bounds. Read over all the news in the last week and grab BLNM first thing Thursday Morning.</u></b></FONT></DIV>
</BODY>
</HTML>

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<BODY>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D3><i><b>BLNM Becomes Primary VOIP Agent For China Telcom and China Netcom!</b></i></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D3>Huge VOIP Contract gets Signed With Beijing Oriental Inc.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>Company:</b> Bralorne Mining Company</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>Sym:</b> BLNM.OB</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>Price:</b> $0.27</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>BLNM.OB</b> is the primary VOIP agent for China's two largest telecoms, China Telcom and China Netcom. This is fast pushing them to <b>become a major player in the worlds fastest growing telecommunications market</b>.
</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Additionally, they have now signed contract to provide 3GenisIP service to Beijing Oriental which in turn exposes them to over 300 national and international clients of Beijing Oriental.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b><u>This company is growing in leaps and bounds. Read over all the news in the last week and grab BLNM first thing Thursday Morning.</u></b></FONT></DIV>
</BODY>
</HTML>

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</HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D3><i><b>BLNM Becomes Primary VOIP Agent For China Telcom and China Netcom!</b></i></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D3>Huge VOIP Contract gets Signed With Beijing Oriental Inc.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>Company:</b> Bralorne Mining Company</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>Sym:</b> BLNM.OB</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>Price:</b> $0.27</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b>BLNM.OB</b> is the primary VOIP agent for China's two largest telecoms, China Telcom and China Netcom. This is fast pushing them to <b>become a major player in the worlds fastest growing telecommunications market</b>.
</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Additionally, they have now signed contract to provide 3GenisIP service to Beijing Oriental which in turn exposes them to over 300 national and international clients of Beijing Oriental.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><b><u>This company is growing in leaps and bounds. Read over all the news in the last week and grab BLNM first thing Thursday Morning.</u></b></FONT></DIV>
</BODY>
</HTML>

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At 03:58 PM 11/28/2006, Edward Lewis wrote:
>Given that, my impression of the PNE vs. SO debate is that the two 
>approaches are solving different problems and as long as that is the 
>case, we'll never have an end to the debate over the two.  PNE (aka 
>DNSSEC) is what the servers need to protect themselves.  SO is 
>optimized for what an application would want to know.  PNE is 
>optimized for DNS, SO for applications.  The two have different needs.

It's unclear from the discussion that the folks 'supporting' (maybe 
too weak or too strong) PNE believe PNE is only for DNS.  It is true 
that when designing SO I looked mainly to application needs.

>I'm not trying to argue that we stay true to the DNSSEC/PNE 
>principles.  And I'm not arguing against SO.  What I am trying to 
>say is that debating between the two is not going to lead to a 
>conclusion.  They are apples and oranges.

You may be right - but its unclear we have the data to make that determination.

Just to clarify, I'm not arguing that PNE be abandoned, but I'm 
trying to inject some rigor into the process of reasoning about 
DNSSEC.  It is clear from the various discussion threads that there 
isn't a common understanding about the use of DNSSEC even after 14 
years - and that may be because of the complexity of the system.

Just about the only thing I've been able to glean from the 
discussions over the years is that most people believe that being 
able to validate a piece of DNS data is *good* - the rest is all over 
the place. 


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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 30 14:33:08 2006
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 13:47:50 -0500
To: Robert Story <rstory@sparta.com>
From: Mike StJohns <Mike.StJohns@nominum.com>
Subject: Re: DNSSEC - Intermediate Validation - Good or bad idea?
Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
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At 04:30 PM 11/28/2006, Robert Story wrote:
>On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 20:41:57 -0500 Mike wrote:
>MS> The counter argument to doing this is that the intermediate validator
>MS> doesn't have enough information to make a good policy decision on
>MS> what to do in this situation.  The validator would need additional
>MS> information about why the DNS question was being asked to do the
>MS> "right" thing. E.g. blocking the data for an HTTP connection might be
>MS> the right idea, but blocking it for HTTPS is probably the wrong idea
>MS> because the underlying TLS connection has a better validation scheme.
>
>I think you are right that the validator doesn't have enough
>information to make a good policy decision for all cases. But I think
>'better safe than sorry' is a good default. Applications that think
>they can do better already have a mechanism for doing so - setting the
>CD bit.

Right... and an SO validator will do that.  You and I think PHB talk 
about "better safe than sorry" (he used "conservative").  The 
question here is what's more conservative and keeping with general 
robustness principles?  Blocking data because you're weren't able to 
validate it (which can be different from the data was actually an 
attack), or passing it through with some indication it might be bad 
and letting the end application decide? I'd argue the latter would 
have been the correct approach, but would have required changes to 
the applications and hence was not the path taken.

DNSSEC PNE with intermediate validation has the principle that a 
single administrative error (e.g. signing the root dnskey rrset with 
an unknown trust anchor, fat fingering the DS summary of a delegation 
point) can cause an entire part of the DNS tree to disappear from 
non-validating end-application view.  This scares me... a lot.



>MS> In general, the IETF and others have come down on the side of
>MS> "synthesized answers bad" side of the argument when discussing things
>MS> like "Sitefinder". Is there a meaningful way to differentiate that
>MS> general concept of answer synthesis from DNSSECs concept?
>
>Sitefinder is a horse of a completely different color. Redirecting a
>user to somewhere they didn't ask for is nothing like redirecting a
>user away from somewhere that might not be what they think it is. It's
>deception vs protection.

An intermediate validating resolver synthesizes an answer that says 
that data at your query point doesn't exist, regardless of whether it 
the resolver saw something in response.  Sitefinder synthesized an 
answer that said that data at your query point did exist (and 
although Sitefinder did it at the origin, there are plenty of 
resolvers that can intercept a NXDOMAIN answer and synthesize a 
replacement local to the user).  In both cases, the user is being 
lied to - and both arguments are "its for his own good" 


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To: Ted Hardie <hardie@qualcomm.com>,Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz>
From: Mike StJohns <Mike.StJohns@nominum.com>
Subject: Re: DNSSEC - Application use of Provable non-existence
Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
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Hi Ted -

Sorry - I was a bit flippant here.  The issue is that there are 
something like a dozen distinct things that can happen when you make 
a DNS query for a label that may or may not be DNSSEC signed.  Here's 
the enumeration as best I can make it.

- not under a trust anchor  (e.g. query for example.com when the only 
trust anchor you have is for .org)
   -- no answer various failure codes - maybe try again (check 
spelling etc), maybe give up
   -- an answer, unvalidated, saying it doesn't exist - maybe try 
again, maybe give up
   -- an answer, unvalidated, but correct - you connect
   -- an answer, unvalidated and wrong - you connect because you 
don't know the difference and maybe get sent to a fake or malicious site

- under a trust anchor (e.g. query for example.com with a trust 
anchor for .com)
-- no answer, various failure codes - maybe try again
-- an answer, validated, saying it doesn't exist - maybe try again in 
a while, maybe give up
-- an answer, validated, and correct - you connect
-- an answer, validated, and wrong - you connect, the zone owner screwed up
-- an answer, unsecure delegation, and correct - you connect
-- an answer, unsecure delegation, saying it doesn't exist - maybe 
try again, maybe give up
-- an answer, unsecure delegation, and wrong - you connect because 
you can't tell the difference...
-- an answer, unvalidated and correct - you don't connect because you 
weren't able to get a signature - but you maybe requery trying to get 
a signed answer
-- an answer, unvalidated and wrong - you don't connect because you 
weren't able to get a signature - but you maybe requery trying to get 
a signed answer
-- an answer, unvalidated, saying it doesn't exist - you maybe requery

- under SO
-- no answer, various failure codes - maybe try again
-- an answer, validated, correct - connect
-- an answer, validated, wrong - connect - zone owner screwed up
-- an answer, unvalidated, correct or wrong - you may decided to 
connect if you have an alternate means of validation or if the site 
is non-critical


Pretty much everywhere I've got "maybe" it really means - the human 
in the loop makes a decision. "try again" above means "check the 
spelling and retype, or click the link again, or wait a while and try again"


At 04:06 PM 11/28/2006, Ted Hardie wrote:
>At 3:35 PM -0500 11/28/06, Mike StJohns wrote:
> >
> >Hi Ted -
> >
> >Without DNSSEC, if I type an invalid name, I get a DNS answer that 
> suggests I should try again.
>
>Not really. "try again" implies "try the same name again".  The answer you get
>back from the DNS tells you that the name does not exist.  "Check 
>your input" would
>be a better quick summary of the advice to the user.     I think in the
>message below, you're basically eliding the differences among the 
>error messages
>which are possible--making "Someone may be fooling you, try to get past it"
>and "Check your input" and "This was asserted, but it may or may not be true"
>all be the same.  While you can imagine that being the case 
>(especially with a limited
>UI), my personal take is that there are already programs which are provided
>error-checking that is rich enough that providing distinguishable errors among
>those will be done by some applications.   If you are arguing that 
>helping people
>create useful error messages from those conditions would be a good 
>thing, I agree.
>We have a lot of badness in the browser world because people collapsed
>a whole set of security checks into a single token (the whole/broken key,
>for example).
>
>My personal opinion, as I said.
>
>                                 Ted Hardie
>
>
>
> >With a browser capable of PNE DNSSEC, if I type an invalid name I 
> get a signed DNS answer that says the name doesn't exist at this 
> time and suggests I should try again...
> >
> >Hmm...
> >
> >Or I can type an invalid name and get a bogus answer that suggests 
> I should try again.
> >
> >Or I can type an invalid name and get an unsecure answer that 
> suggest I should try again.
> >
> >Hmm...
> >
> >Or I can type a valid name and both PNE and SO say its OK so I connect...
> >
> >Or I can type a valid name, but the response comes back as 
> unvalidated (missing sigs, etc) - I treat it with suspicion and 
> maybe try again.
> >
> >
> >Both PNE and SO both agree that if a positive answer is signed all 
> the way then you should use it - its all the other cases I can't 
> quite get people to enumerate what they'll do.
> >
> >As I said - PNE does provide more capability, but I can't get a 
> consistent statement on what to do with that capability.
> >
> >Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with
> >the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body.
> >archive: <http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/>

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<html>
<body>
Hi Ted - <br><br>
Sorry - I was a bit flippant here.&nbsp; The issue is that there are
something like a dozen distinct things that can happen when you make a
DNS query for a label that may or may not be DNSSEC signed.&nbsp; Here's
the enumeration as best I can make it.<br><br>
- not under a trust anchor&nbsp; (e.g. query for example.com when the
only trust anchor you have is for .org)
<dl>
<dd>&nbsp; -- no answer various failure codes - maybe try again (check
spelling etc), maybe give up
<dd>&nbsp; -- an answer, unvalidated, saying it doesn't exist - maybe try
again, maybe give up
<dd>&nbsp; -- an answer, unvalidated, but correct - you connect
<dd>&nbsp; -- an answer, unvalidated and wrong - you connect because you
don't know the difference and maybe get sent to a fake or malicious
site<br><br>
</dl>- under a trust anchor (e.g. query for example.com with a trust
anchor for .com)
<dl>
<dd>-- no answer, various failure codes - maybe try again
<dd>-- an answer, validated, saying it doesn't exist - maybe try again in
a while, maybe give up
<dd>-- an answer, validated, and correct - you connect
<dd>-- an answer, validated, and wrong - you connect, the zone owner
screwed up
<dd>-- an answer, unsecure delegation, and correct - you connect
<dd>-- an answer, unsecure delegation, saying it doesn't exist - maybe
try again, maybe give up
<dd>-- an answer, unsecure delegation, and wrong - you connect because
you can't tell the difference...
<dd>-- an answer, unvalidated and correct - you don't connect because you
weren't able to get a signature - but you maybe requery trying to get a
signed answer
<dd>-- an answer, unvalidated and wrong - you don't connect because you
weren't able to get a signature - but you maybe requery trying to get a
signed answer
<dd>-- an answer, unvalidated, saying it doesn't exist - you maybe
requery<br><br>
</dl>- under SO
<dl>
<dd>-- no answer, various failure codes - maybe try again
<dd>-- an answer, validated, correct - connect
<dd>-- an answer, validated, wrong - connect - zone owner screwed up
<dd>-- an answer, unvalidated, correct or wrong - you may decided to
connect if you have an alternate means of validation or if the site is
non-critical<br>
<br><br>
</dl>Pretty much everywhere I've got &quot;maybe&quot; it really means -
the human in the loop makes a decision.  &quot;try again&quot; above
means &quot;check the spelling and retype, or click the link again, or
wait a while and try again&quot;<br><br>
<br>
At 04:06 PM 11/28/2006, Ted Hardie wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">At 3:35 PM -0500 11/28/06, Mike
StJohns wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Hi Ted -<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Without DNSSEC, if I type an invalid name, I get a DNS answer that
suggests I should try again.<br><br>
Not really. &quot;try again&quot; implies &quot;try the same name
again&quot;.&nbsp; The answer you get<br>
back from the DNS tells you that the name does not exist.&nbsp;
&quot;Check your input&quot; would<br>
be a better quick summary of the advice to the
user.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I think in the<br>
message below, you're basically eliding the differences among the error
messages<br>
which are possible--making &quot;Someone may be fooling you, try to get
past it&quot;<br>
and &quot;Check your input&quot; and &quot;This was asserted, but it may
or may not be true&quot;<br>
all be the same.&nbsp; While you can imagine that being the case
(especially with a limited<br>
UI), my personal take is that there are already programs which are
provided<br>
error-checking that is rich enough that providing distinguishable errors
among<br>
those will be done by some applications.&nbsp;&nbsp; If you are arguing
that helping people<br>
create useful error messages from those conditions would be a good thing,
I agree.<br>
We have a lot of badness in the browser world because people
collapsed<br>
a whole set of security checks into a single token (the whole/broken
key,<br>
for example).<br><br>
My personal opinion, as I said.<br><br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Ted
Hardie<br><br>
<br><br>
&gt;With a browser capable of PNE DNSSEC, if I type an invalid name I get
a signed DNS answer that says the name doesn't exist at this time and
suggests I should try again...<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Hmm...<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Or I can type an invalid name and get a bogus answer that suggests I
should try again.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Or I can type an invalid name and get an unsecure answer that suggest
I should try again.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Hmm...<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Or I can type a valid name and both PNE and SO say its OK so I
connect...<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Or I can type a valid name, but the response comes back as
unvalidated (missing sigs, etc) - I treat it with suspicion and maybe try
again.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Both PNE and SO both agree that if a positive answer is signed all
the way then you should use it - its all the other cases I can't quite
get people to enumerate what they'll do.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;As I said - PNE does provide more capability, but I can't get a
consistent statement on what to do with that capability.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Mike<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;--<br>
&gt;to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org
with<br>
&gt;the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text
body.<br>
&gt;archive:
&lt;<a href="http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/" eudora="autourl">
http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/</a>&gt;</blockquote></body>
</html>

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 30 14:34:29 2006
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To: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
From: Mike StJohns <Mike.StJohns@nominum.com>
Subject: Re: DNSSEC - Signature Only vs the MX/A issue.
Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
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At 03:47 PM 11/28/2006, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:
>On Tue, Nov 28, 2006 at 03:13:50PM -0500,
>  Mike StJohns <Mike.StJohns@nominum.com> wrote
>  a message of 25 lines which said:
>
> > Not exactly.  See my previous note to Mark.  SO still protects the
> > atomicity of an RRSet - you can delete ALL of the SRV records or
> > none of them.  If you delete all of them at a label, the lookup
> > fails and you can't proceed.
>
>See Peter Koch's reply :-) Many protocols define a fallback outside of
>the RRset. For instance, in
>http://mirrors.isc.org/pub/www.watersprings.org/pub/id/draft-andrews-http-srv-01.txt,
>there is a fallback from SRV to A.

Couldn't find a copy - the link you provided is bad.

But that brings up a question.  Just what atomicity guarantees do you 
expect DNSSEC to provide for DNS lookups?

For example - an SRV  or NAPTR record at one name can point to a 
record at another name - do you expect that the entire group of 
related records MUST be signed?  If so how do you enforce it, 
especially if the references point outside the zone?

If you're talking about A record fall back (e.g. asking for a 
SRV/NAPTR/pick one record at www.example.com and falling back to the 
A records at www.example.com), what atomicity guarantee do you need 
in the temporal dimension?  E.g. if I try and retrieve the SRV record 
and am told it doesn't exist - securely - but the zone operator is in 
the process of installing it and does so before I can retrieve 
(perhaps manually) the A record - is that OK even though by the time 
I retrieved the A record the SRV record actually did exist?  Or worse 
yet, the operator was in the process of deleting the A record and 
adding the SRV record - I was able to prove when I went to get the 
SRV record it didn't exist - when I went to get the A record it also 
didn't exist.  Both things were true when I asked, but the result is 
that for some period of time I will believe that no service exists.

PNE makes the entire zone atomic for some measure of atomicity - what 
statement would you make to an application developer about reliance 
on that atomicity? 


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To: Josh Littlefield <joshl@cisco.com>,
 Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
From: Mike StJohns <Mike.StJohns@nominum.com>
Subject: Re: DNSSEC - Signature Only vs the MX/A issue.
Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
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At 04:42 PM 11/28/2006, Josh Littlefield wrote:
>Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:
> > On Tue, Nov 28, 2006 at 03:13:50PM -0500,
> >  Mike StJohns <Mike.StJohns@nominum.com> wrote
> >  a message of 25 lines which said:
> >
> >> Not exactly.  See my previous note to Mark.  SO still protects the
> >> atomicity of an RRSet - you can delete ALL of the SRV records or
> >> none of them.  If you delete all of them at a label, the lookup
> >> fails and you can't proceed.
> >
> > See Peter Koch's reply :-) Many protocols define a fallback outside of
> > the RRset. For instance, in
> > 
> http://mirrors.isc.org/pub/www.watersprings.org/pub/id/draft-andrews-http-srv-01.txt,
> > there is a fallback from SRV to A.
>
>Similarly, RFC 3263 defines fallback from NAPTR to SRV (at a different
>but related name), followed by fallback to A and AAAA.

*sigh* Yes.  


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To: Mark Andrews <Mark_Andrews@isc.org>
From: Mike StJohns <Mike.StJohns@nominum.com>
Subject: Re: DNSSEC - Signature Only vs the MX/A issue. 
Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
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At 05:56 PM 11/28/2006, Mark Andrews wrote:
> > Looking solely at signed zones, if the strong suggestion were that a
> > label not have both MX and A records - this could be implemented as
> > the zones were signed.  A DNSSEC-capable MTA would still look for
> > both records, but would never consider the A records as validated if
> > they were the only ones retrieved from the label - somewhere between
> > fully secure and bogus in the way it would be treated.
>
>         Crazy idea.

Let me put it another way.  A zone with only MX records at a label is 
not subject to this deletion attack.  Going forward, SO zones would 
not have A records at a label that also has MX records.

>
> >
> > Maybe.  MX/A are alternates for each other - both are considered
>
>         No, they are not alternates.  It is A iff there is no MX.

You're correct.  I went back and re-read the relevant section of 2821.

On an aside - I think 2821 is wrong.  The original  "A"  mail deliver 
hack was designed to deal not with the people implementing the zones, 
but with those with old MTAs that were converting over from host 
tables and were only using the A record.  So 2821 doesn't actually 
work for that case - zones aren't required to have MTAs at the A 
record.  The MX/A hack really needs to be  deprecated.

>         There are plenty of domains where the MX goes to in house
>         machine and the A goes to a web servers which is hosted by
>         a third party.
>
>         If you spoof away the existance of the MX then the email
>         gets delivered to the web hosting box which can be legitimately
>         running a MTA for its own use.
>
>         PNE provides protection against this sort of misdirection.

Speaking of hacks...


> > >         Anything that is attempting to deliver a robust automated
> > >         service needs PNE.
> >
> > This feels to be an assertion rather than a statement of fact.  I'd
> > appreciate an expansion of your reasoning here.
>
>         Without PNE you just have to blindly trust that a negative
>         answer is correct.  With PNE you have a an assurance that a
>         negative answer is correct and you can take different steps
>         to recover when under attack (e.g. log an error and store for
>         retry).

If I can attack the positive answers, I can attack the negative 
answers.  If you get a negative, unvalidated answer you do 
what?  (e.g. MX records doesn't exist - unvalidated - do you try for 
the A record, try the MX record again or just fail? The end result - 
the mail doesn't get through.)


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Subject: Re: DNSSEC - Application use of Provable non-existence
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At 07:12 AM 11/29/2006, Shane Kerr wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>Mike StJohns wrote:
> > Anyway, shouldn't the resolver handle the cases of bogus and unsecure
> > differently? That is, if I get a bogus answer, shouldn't the resolver
> > assume
> > that this is an attacker, and wait for the valid response to appear or
> > perhaps
> > try a different name server?
> >
> >> In both cases, the answers are unsigned.  The question is not so much
> >> what I do for the bogus answer, but why I wouldn't do the same thing for
> >> the unsecure answer.  But the general policy in intermediate validating
> >> resolvers is to block bogus answers, but pass answers with a validation
> >> status of unsecure and unknown (e.g. no trust anchor).

Sorry - nomenclature issues here.

>I don't understand.
>
>- - If "unsecure" means "an unsigned response that should have been 
>signed", then
>it is the same as "bogus". I'd expect the resolver to drop these.

Unsecure is data under a trust anchor where there was a secure 
delegation into an unsecure zone (e.g. proof at the parent that the 
DS record didn't exist)


>- - If "unsecure" means "no signed DS chain from a trust anchor", then I would
>expect the resolver to use these. A browser could handle this the same as SSL
>certificates, and let the user know whether or not the DNS is secure.
>
>If there is PNE, then the nice dialog that Firefox throws up can 
>have a shining
>picture indicating that the not only is there no address for this 
>name, but that
>we're "sure". I guess this is what was meant when the speaker said "I have an
>application today... Firefox!"

All you can say about data in an unsecure zone was that the parent 
said it was unsecure.  A response of non-existence is no better or 
worse than without DNSSEC or data not subordinate to a trust anchor.

If you say a site doesn't exist securely of course you know that the 
data doesn't exist - now.  The question is how long you wait until 
you decide that it might exist (e.g. TTLs)?  And how does that differ 
from what you do with DNS today (e.g. negative caching ttls)?  I know 
that if I get an answer like that regardless of whether its validated 
or unvalidated, I'm probably going to try and force a DNS lookup past 
the cache, especially if I *know* (someone told me, someone wrote it 
down, it was on a web page, etc) it existed.

If you say a site doesn't exist insecurely, you don't have the data 
to connect (i.e. no return of a A record) so you can't connect.  You 
might want to try again - and if you get a validated answer that it 
does exist (either PNE or SO) at a later time you connect.

I can't see any difference on the final result or even much on how I 
got there...



>For non-interactive applications... I don't know. The possible attack is DoS,
>right? I guess some analysis of classes of non-interactive applications can be
>made, but my intuition tells me that most applications will need to 
>handle this
>attack in a unique way.

Yes.  I'd really like someone to make and publish analyses for 
several applications rather than assume a field of dreams 
approach.  At the very least it would silence some of the DNSSEC 
critics who ask "What's the value-add for DNSSEC?"


Later, Mike

>- --
>Shane
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 30 14:54:31 2006
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To: Suresh Krishnaswamy <suresh@tislabs.com>
From: Mike StJohns <Mike.StJohns@nominum.com>
Subject: Re: DNSSEC - Application use of Provable non-existence
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Take a look at my response to Ted's note with the enumeration of the 
various cases - if you could,I'd appreciate your comments on what 
you'd do for each case and why.  I'm not trying to get away from 
commenting on the below, I just think the two have converged enough.

Mike



At 04:36 PM 11/28/2006, Suresh Krishnaswamy wrote:

>The main point here is that I am treating PNE differently from bogus
>and indeterminate.
>
>>
>>>Also, the trust anchor setting should not be the only mechanism to
>>>decide the "zone security expectation" IMHO. Trusting or not
>>>trusting the data under a provably insecure zone may also,
>>>similarly, be a matter of policy.
>>
>>I don't disagree here - but that then begs the question of whether
>>or not you'd ever trust a provably unsecure zone as a matter of
>>policy without knowing more about the zone than the secure/unsecure
>>delegation policy.
>
>I would, indeed. If the parent zone has specifically marked a zone as
>unsigned, I may want to defer to its judgement. I think this just
>scales much better. I can always override this policy if I need to
>for specific zones that I have knowledge about, but I expect this to
>only happen for the initial couple of years when deployment is still
>sparse. The policy knob that decides whether the provably insecure
>delegation is trusted or not, is again something I see as being used
>only in specialized environments -- certainly the exception, not the
>rule.


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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
directories.
This draft is a work item of the DNS Extensions Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Automated Updates of DNSSEC Trust Anchors
	Author(s)	: M. StJohns
	Filename	: draft-ietf-dnsext-trustupdate-timers-05.txt
	Pages		: 13
	Date		: 2006-11-30
	
This document describes a means for automated, authenticated and
   authorized updating of DNSSEC "trust anchors".  The method provides
   protection against N-1 key compromises of N keys in the trust point
   key set.  Based on the trust established by the presence of a current
   anchor, other anchors may be added at the same place in the
   hierarchy, and, ultimately, supplant the existing anchor(s).

   This mechanism will require changes to resolver management behavior
   (but not resolver resolution behavior), and the addition of a single
   flag bit to the DNSKEY record.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 30 16:36:28 2006
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On Thu, 30 Nov 2006, Mike StJohns wrote:

> Sorry - I was a bit flippant here.  The issue is that there are something 
> like a dozen distinct things that can happen when you make a DNS query for a 
> label that may or may not be DNSSEC signed.  Here's the enumeration as best I 
> can make it.

So if you have PNE then NXDOMAIN answer would be "signed" where as NODATA
would not be?

-- 
William Leibzon
Elan Networks
william@elan.net

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 30 17:39:07 2006
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From: Mark Andrews <Mark_Andrews@isc.org>
Subject: Re: DNSSEC - Signature Only vs the MX/A issue. 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 30 Nov 2006 14:24:08 CDT."
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> At 05:56 PM 11/28/2006, Mark Andrews wrote:
> > > Looking solely at signed zones, if the strong suggestion were that a
> > > label not have both MX and A records - this could be implemented as
> > > the zones were signed.  A DNSSEC-capable MTA would still look for
> > > both records, but would never consider the A records as validated if
> > > they were the only ones retrieved from the label - somewhere between
> > > fully secure and bogus in the way it would be treated.
> >
> >         Crazy idea.
> 
> Let me put it another way.  A zone with only MX records at a label is 
> not subject to this deletion attack.  Going forward, SO zones would 
> not have A records at a label that also has MX records.

	You would then have disjoint sets of mail domains and
	hostname rather than the current state of mail domains being
	a super set of working (have address records) hostnames.

	While I see what you are trying to achieve you are throwing
	the baby out with the bath water.  I repeat it is a crazy
	idea.
 
> > >
> > > Maybe.  MX/A are alternates for each other - both are considered
> >
> >         No, they are not alternates.  It is A iff there is no MX.
> 
> You're correct.  I went back and re-read the relevant section of 2821.
> 
> On an aside - I think 2821 is wrong.  The original  "A"  mail deliver 
> hack was designed to deal not with the people implementing the zones, 
> but with those with old MTAs that were converting over from host 
> tables and were only using the A record.  So 2821 doesn't actually 
> work for that case - zones aren't required to have MTAs at the A 
> record.  The MX/A hack really needs to be  deprecated.
>
> >         There are plenty of domains where the MX goes to in house
> >         machine and the A goes to a web servers which is hosted by
> >         a third party.
> >
> >         If you spoof away the existance of the MX then the email
> >         gets delivered to the web hosting box which can be legitimately
> >         running a MTA for its own use.
> >
> >         PNE provides protection against this sort of misdirection.
> 
> Speaking of hacks...
> 
> 
> > > >         Anything that is attempting to deliver a robust automated
> > > >         service needs PNE.
> > >
> > > This feels to be an assertion rather than a statement of fact.  I'd
> > > appreciate an expansion of your reasoning here.
> >
> >         Without PNE you just have to blindly trust that a negative
> >         answer is correct.  With PNE you have a an assurance that a
> >         negative answer is correct and you can take different steps
> >         to recover when under attack (e.g. log an error and store for
> >         retry).
> 
> If I can attack the positive answers, I can attack the negative 
> answers.  If you get a negative, unvalidated answer you do 
> what?  (e.g. MX records doesn't exist - unvalidated - do you try for 
> the A record, try the MX record again or just fail? The end result - 
> the mail doesn't get through.)
 
	Think of the various attack modes.  Not all attack modes are
	100% reliable.  With SO you when you get a negative answer
	you *have* to trust it.  With PNE you can just drop the bogus
	negative answers and try again.  Unless the attacker can see
	and intercept all your traffic the valid answer will eventually
	get through.

	With SO you won't be directed to the wrong site, but you can
	still be prevented from getting to the site as the result of
	a forged DNS response.  You can be forced to take a alternate
	strategy that you would not normally take.

	Mark
-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 30 17:51:05 2006
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From: Mark Andrews <Mark_Andrews@isc.org>
Subject: Re: DNSSEC - Intermediate Validation - Good or bad idea? 
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> >Sitefinder is a horse of a completely different color. Redirecting a
> >user to somewhere they didn't ask for is nothing like redirecting a
> >user away from somewhere that might not be what they think it is. It's
> >deception vs protection.

> An intermediate validating resolver synthesizes an answer that says 
> that data at your query point doesn't exist, regardless of whether it 
> the resolver saw something in response.

	No.  It says: I was not able to get a valid answer as to
	whether the data exists or not (SERVFAIL).  This is different
	to staying that the answer does not exist (NXDOMAIN/NODATA).

	getaddrinfo() returns a different error codes.  EAI_AGAIN
	vs EAI_NONAME or EAI_NODATA.

	A naive application may treat them the same by many
	applications don't.

>  Sitefinder synthesized an 
> answer that said that data at your query point did exist (and 
> although Sitefinder did it at the origin, there are plenty of 
> resolvers that can intercept a NXDOMAIN answer and synthesize a 
> replacement local to the user).  In both cases, the user is being 
> lied to - and both arguments are "its for his own good" 
> 
> 
> --
> to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with
> the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body.
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-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org

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From: Mark Andrews <Mark_Andrews@isc.org>
Subject: Re: DNSSEC - Signature Only vs the MX/A issue. 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 30 Nov 2006 12:48:58 CDT."
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> At 03:47 PM 11/28/2006, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:
> >On Tue, Nov 28, 2006 at 03:13:50PM -0500,
> >  Mike StJohns <Mike.StJohns@nominum.com> wrote
> >  a message of 25 lines which said:
> >
> > > Not exactly.  See my previous note to Mark.  SO still protects the
> > > atomicity of an RRSet - you can delete ALL of the SRV records or
> > > none of them.  If you delete all of them at a label, the lookup
> > > fails and you can't proceed.
> >
> >See Peter Koch's reply :-) Many protocols define a fallback outside of
> >the RRset. For instance, in
> >http://mirrors.isc.org/pub/www.watersprings.org/pub/id/draft-andrews-http-sr
> v-01.txt,
> >there is a fallback from SRV to A.
> 
> Couldn't find a copy - the link you provided is bad.
> 
> But that brings up a question.  Just what atomicity guarantees do you 
> expect DNSSEC to provide for DNS lookups?
> 
> For example - an SRV  or NAPTR record at one name can point to a 
> record at another name - do you expect that the entire group of 
> related records MUST be signed?  If so how do you enforce it, 
> especially if the references point outside the zone?

	I expect each in turn to be signed or provably insecure.
	[Anyname not under a trust anchor is provably insecure from
	the resolvers perspective.]
 
> If you're talking about A record fall back (e.g. asking for a 
> SRV/NAPTR/pick one record at www.example.com and falling back to the 
> A records at www.example.com), what atomicity guarantee do you need 
> in the temporal dimension?  E.g. if I try and retrieve the SRV record 
> and am told it doesn't exist - securely - but the zone operator is in 
> the process of installing it and does so before I can retrieve 
> (perhaps manually) the A record - is that OK even though by the time 
> I retrieved the A record the SRV record actually did exist?  Or worse 
> yet, the operator was in the process of deleting the A record and 
> adding the SRV record - I was able to prove when I went to get the 
> SRV record it didn't exist - when I went to get the A record it also 
> didn't exist.  Both things were true when I asked, but the result is 
> that for some period of time I will believe that no service exists.

	This not a DNSSEC problem.  This is a plain DNS problem.  DNSSEC
	does not change the problem.
 
> PNE makes the entire zone atomic for some measure of atomicity - what 
> statement would you make to an application developer about reliance 
> on that atomicity? 
> 
> 
> --
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-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org

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To: "william(at)elan.net" <william@elan.net>
Cc: Mike StJohns <Mike.StJohns@nominum.com>, namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
From: Mark Andrews <Mark_Andrews@isc.org>
Subject: Re: DNSSEC - Application use of Provable non-existence 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 30 Nov 2006 13:28:51 -0800."
             <Pine.LNX.4.62.0611301324100.5577@sokol.elan.net> 
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> 
> On Thu, 30 Nov 2006, Mike StJohns wrote:
> 
> > Sorry - I was a bit flippant here.  The issue is that there are something 
> > like a dozen distinct things that can happen when you make a DNS query for 
> a 
> > label that may or may not be DNSSEC signed.  Here's the enumeration as best
>  I 
> > can make it.
> 
> So if you have PNE then NXDOMAIN answer would be "signed" where as NODATA
> would not be?

	NODATA is signed.  See the NSEC record.
 
> -- 
> William Leibzon
> Elan Networks
> william@elan.net
> 
> --
> to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with
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-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 30 20:44:38 2006
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To: Mike StJohns <Mike.StJohns@nominum.com>
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From: Mark Andrews <Mark_Andrews@isc.org>
Subject: Re: DNSSEC - Intermediate Validation - Good or bad idea? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 30 Nov 2006 13:47:50 CDT."
             <20061130192416.AFCDC56903@shell-ng.nominum.com> 
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> DNSSEC PNE with intermediate validation has the principle that a 
> single administrative error (e.g. signing the root dnskey rrset with 
> an unknown trust anchor, fat fingering the DS summary of a delegation 
> point) can cause an entire part of the DNS tree to disappear from 
> non-validating end-application view.  This scares me... a lot.
 
	There are lots of ways whole branches can disappear in the
	DNS today.  DNSSEC just adds a few more.

	I have on a number of occasions said that registries today
	should at delegation time and periodically there after check
	delegations and get the broken ones fixed.  e.g. ensure
	that NS RRsets match, ensure that glue address records
	match, etc.

	I keep getting told "this is not the registry's job" or "we
	can't to this as we have registrars" or "we can't do this
	at delegation time because we have to perform the delegation
	within X seconds", etc.

	The DNSSEC errors above fall into the same class of error.
	I just need someone to decide to take responability for
	what they are doing and *manage* what is happening and not
	race for the almighty buck.

	Mark

	P.S.  I also think that failure to fix delegations in a
	timely maner should result in the delegation being pulled.
	This is nothing new. There is already a RFC which states
	that errors in the child should be reported to the parent
	if the child fails to respond with the ultimate penalty
	being that the delegation is pulled.

-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 30 21:06:13 2006
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 21:01:18 -0500
From: Rob Austein <sra@isc.org>
To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: DNSSEC - Intermediate Validation - Good or bad idea?
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Intermediate validation is a really bad idea.  It's just better than
not doing validation at all.

There's this little problem of the installed base of DNSSEC-oblivious
stub resolvers.  Intermediate validation is the only way I can see to
protect them.  I'd strongly prefer that all stub resolvers eventually
turn into validating stub resolvers, but that'll take a while.

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