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Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 01:24:40 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 > At 15:19 -0800 12/31/07, Noah Treuhaft wrote: > > >I think it's reasonable for a responder who does not understand the OPT > >pseudo-RR to ignore it and respond as though the OPT were absent from > >the request. As the above paragraph stands, that's unexpected behavior. > >Is there any reason it should be? > > Maybe my recollection is hazy, but I think the theory is that any > responder that does not understand the OPT pseudo-RR would barf when > seeing a record in the additional section in a query. There were servers that never parsed to the end of a incoming packet. > -- > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 > NeuStar > > Think glocally. Act confused. > > -- > to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with > the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. > archive: -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 01 10:04:28 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J9ifM-0001FW-Hq; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 10:04:28 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J9ifL-0003RE-19; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 10:04:28 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1J9iav-000F07-6l for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 14:59:53 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP, RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [82.93.240.211] (helo=adsl-xs4all.ds9a.nl) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1J9iaV-000ExH-FQ for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 14:59:40 +0000 Received: from outpost.ds9a.nl ([85.17.220.215] ident=postfix) by adsl-xs4all.ds9a.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1J9iaS-0006XF-7D for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 15:59:24 +0100 Received: by outpost.ds9a.nl (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 874F54554; Tue, 1 Jan 2008 15:59:25 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 15:56:21 +0100 From: bert hubert To: Mark Andrews Cc: Edward Lewis , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: EDNS0 revisions Message-ID: <20080101145621.GA12639@outpost.ds9a.nl> References: <200801011424.m01EOe1A050852@drugs.dv.isc.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200801011424.m01EOe1A050852@drugs.dv.isc.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 On Wed, Jan 02, 2008 at 01:24:40AM +1100, Mark Andrews wrote: > > Maybe my recollection is hazy, but I think the theory is that any > > responder that does not understand the OPT pseudo-RR would barf when > > seeing a record in the additional section in a query. > > There were servers that never parsed to the end of a incoming > packet. To this day, the PowerDNS Authoritative Server still does not react to incoming EDNS0 options. It silently ignores the OPT record at the end of the packet, and does not send one back in the response. This might be rectified in 3.0. The PowerDNS Recursor does parse & react to OPT records. Bert -- http://www.PowerDNS.com Open source, database driven DNS Software http://netherlabs.nl Open and Closed source services -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From FrancinedefrockKilgore@webopedia.com Tue Jan 01 11:41:24 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J9kBA-0007XQ-S8; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 11:41:24 -0500 Received: from d90-128-35-2.cust.tele2.de ([90.128.35.2] helo=valentina.lan) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J9kBA-0007lv-FO; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 11:41:24 -0500 Received: from courtyard by webopedia.com with SMTP id GMP3lYL8CF for ; Tue, 1 Jan 2008 17:41:12 -0100 From: "Adriana Colvin" To: Subject: When you join? 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It silently ignores the OPT record at the end of the > packet, and does not send one back in the response. > ... sounds like perfectly valid 1034/1035 behaviour to me. i propose the following: @@ -254,7 +254,8 @@ .LP 5.3. Responders who do not understand these protocol extensions are expected to send a response with RCODE NOTIMPL, FORMERR, or SERVFAIL, or to appear to -"time out" due to inappropriate action by a "middle box" such as a NAT. +"time out" due to inappropriate action by a "middle box" such as a NAT, or +to ignore extensions and respond only to unextended protocol elements. Therefore use of extensions SHOULD be ``probed'' such that a responder who isn't known to support them be allowed a retry with no extensions if it responds with such an RCODE, or does not respond. 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Responders who do not understand these protocol extensions are expected > to send a response with RCODE NOTIMPL, FORMERR, or SERVFAIL, or to appear to > -"time out" due to inappropriate action by a "middle box" such as a NAT. > +"time out" due to inappropriate action by a "middle box" such as a NAT, or > +to ignore extensions and respond only to unextended protocol elements. Sounds good to me. 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--------------020804080601010408080307-- From GrantpicnickingTate@americablog.com Tue Jan 01 18:41:13 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J9qjR-0002qI-Ds; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 18:41:13 -0500 Received: from 88-108-167-242.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com ([88.108.167.242] helo=computername) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J9qjQ-0005cb-Eh; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 18:41:13 -0500 Received: from hun by americablog.com with SMTP id CTedUiL4du for ; Tue, 1 Jan 2008 23:37:44 +0000 From: "Malcolm Delgado" To: , Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J9qyY-0003cA-C4; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 18:56:50 -0500 Received: from cpc6-midd3-0-0-cust1000.midd.cable.ntl.com ([82.1.163.233] helo=your644e19b0bc) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J9qyX-0005ru-JL; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 18:56:50 -0500 Received: from prosecution by threebit.net with SMTP id ErwKgs62xG for ; Tue, 1 Jan 2008 23:55:53 +0000 From: "Spencer Becker" To: , Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J9rSQ-0001is-Ha; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 19:27:42 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J9rSP-0000cC-0b; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 19:27:42 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1J9rKR-0005bO-Vt for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 00:19:27 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [204.152.184.167] (helo=mx.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1J9rKP-0005b6-NT for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 00:19:26 +0000 Received: from farside.isc.org (farside.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:3:bb::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "farside.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (verified OK)) by mx.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7034C11402A for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 00:19:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Mark_Andrews@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost.isc.org [IPv6:::1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (verified OK)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDE47E6056 for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 00:19:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m020JDZO085309; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 11:19:13 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200801020019.m020JDZO085309@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Paul Vixie Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: EDNS0 revisions In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 01 Jan 2008 17:28:49 -0000." <45079.1199208529@sa.vix.com> Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 11:19:13 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 > > > There were servers that never parsed to the end of a incoming packet. > > since there was no requirement in 1034/1035 that SERVFAIL be sent or that > the additional data section be empty, that is perfectly valid behaviour. > > > To this day, the PowerDNS Authoritative Server still does not react to > > incoming EDNS0 options. It silently ignores the OPT record at the end of th > e > > packet, and does not send one back in the response. > > ... > > sounds like perfectly valid 1034/1035 behaviour to me. > > i propose the following: > > @@ -254,7 +254,8 @@ > .LP > 5.3. Responders who do not understand these protocol extensions are expected > to send a response with RCODE NOTIMPL, FORMERR, or SERVFAIL, or to appear to > -"time out" due to inappropriate action by a "middle box" such as a NAT. > +"time out" due to inappropriate action by a "middle box" such as a NAT, or > +to ignore extensions and respond only to unextended protocol elements. > Therefore use of extensions SHOULD be ``probed'' such that a responder who > isn't known to support them be allowed a retry with no extensions if it > responds with such an RCODE, or does not respond. If a responder's > capability We should split this into two parts. Correct behaviour and observed behaviour. We can debate where silently ignoring the OPT record fits. 1. State what non-EDNS servers are supposed to do. 5.3. Responders who do not understand these protocol extensions are expected to send a response with RCODE FORMERR or NOTIMPL. State what other issues have been seen. 5.4. .... -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 01 19:50:09 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J9ro9-0000cj-Rj; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 19:50:09 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J9ro9-00017C-G6; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 19:50:09 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1J9rhJ-0007B4-FU for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 00:43:05 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [204.152.184.167] (helo=mx.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1J9rhH-0007Ao-7s for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 00:43:04 +0000 Received: from farside.isc.org (farside.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:3:bb::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "farside.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (verified OK)) by mx.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2256C114039 for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 00:43:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Mark_Andrews@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost.isc.org [IPv6:::1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (verified OK)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2B79E607C for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 00:43:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m020geoe085516; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 11:42:41 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200801020042.m020geoe085516@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Michael StJohns Cc: Edward Lewis , =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3lafur?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Gu=F0mundsson?= /DNSEXT chair , Scott Rose , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: {Blocked Content} I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2672bis-dname-07.txt In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 31 Dec 2007 13:06:19 CDT." Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 11:42:40 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 > >#5.2. Dynamic Update and DNAME > ># > ># Zones containing a DNAME RR MUST NOT accept a dynamic update message > ># that would add a record or delegation with a name existing under a > ># DNAME. > ># > ># A server MUST return an error message with RCODE=REFUSED [RFC2136] in > ># response to a dynamic update message that would add a resource record > ># under a DNAME in the zone. > > > >This section should state that it is permissible to delete a DNAME RR set fr > om a name or modify one. What about adding? That's more complex because the > re may be existing names below the proposed owner of the DNAME. Would it be > like adding an NS RR? Masking away the obscured names? Or is the addition a > flat-out error? I think that needs to be discussed (meaning, I don't have a > definite opinion myself). Just make DNAME like delegating NS records. The DNAME record hides any records below it. This makes it consistant with NS behaviour where if you add a delegating NS RRset then remove it you restore the visible zone to its original state. B.T.W. this is what named does. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 01 20:29:57 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J9sQf-0007Q9-NV; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 20:29:57 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J9sQf-0001aB-6H; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 20:29:57 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1J9sJv-0009na-Tv for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 01:22:59 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [204.152.184.167] (helo=mx.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1J9sJV-0009m6-E2 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 01:22:49 +0000 Received: from farside.isc.org (farside.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:3:bb::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "farside.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (verified OK)) by mx.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 150BB114027 for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 01:22:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Mark_Andrews@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost.isc.org [IPv6:::1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (verified OK)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B667E6056 for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 01:22:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m021MI6A016667; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 12:22:19 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200801020122.m021MI6A016667@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Edward Lewis Cc: Paul Vixie , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: EDNS0 revisions In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 31 Dec 2007 12:53:41 CDT." Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 12:22:18 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -3.4 (---) X-Scan-Signature: 244a2fd369eaf00ce6820a760a3de2e8 > At 9:13 +1100 12/22/07, Mark Andrews wrote: > > > I think formalising the reaction to timeout for EDNS failues > > to fall back to plain DNS is wrong. As dependany of EDNS > > increases (e.g. DNSSEC) it is much more important that > > packet loss is treated as packet loss and not broken servers > > / middle boxes. > > I side with Paul's opinion - it's better to let non responses cause > state changes. In 2004 or so I ran some tests for lame servers and > observed these two things: > 1) I would reissue a query up to 10 times before giving up to see > what was the tipping point - at what point were retries generally not > worth the effort. From my now lost records and dusty memory, > counting 100% as the pool of queries ever answered, over 99% were > answered on the first try. The number answering to the 2nd, 3rd, > ..., 10th try, never went to 0 but were all pretty negligible. > > Caveat - YMMV...as is always the case with any experiment. I was on > an office-grade T-1 and self-rate-limited the UDP's out so they > didn't trip on themselves at the first hop. Yet we know that there are clients behind overloaded links. These clients should be able to talk to EDNS servers like they talk to DNS servers. A timeout should not trigger fallback to DNS. Repeated timeouts to the same server could protentially trigger a fallback. > 2) There are name server implementations that will silently discard a > query by policy. One implementation refused to respond to any query > it felt it wasn't supposed to see. I would have expected (as BIND > does in this case) to see a referral to the root. And such behaviour should be specifically discouraged as it overloads what timeout means. It turns configuration errors into denial of service attacks against caching servers. RFC 1034 has REFUSED for a reason. > After some discussion I was convinced that there was merit to this > approach, although the puritanical client-server protocol guy I am > bristles with the notion that silence means error. But that's the > network we have now. > -- > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 > NeuStar > > Think glocally. Act confused. > > -- > to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with > the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. > archive: -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From gpewitt@advantage-media.com Tue Jan 01 21:31:36 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J9tOJ-0007eQ-Ud; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 21:31:35 -0500 Received: from cpe-24-208-126-29.kc.res.rr.com ([24.208.126.29] helo=Smiles.kc.rr.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J9tOI-0008Lu-PV; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 21:31:35 -0500 Received: from [24.208.126.29] by mx.advantage-media.com; Tue, 0 Jan 2008 20:30:32 -0600 Message-ID: <0234fd44$00000015$1d7ed018@gpewitt> From: "Aurelio Morris" To: Subject: Bowl Date: Tue, 0 Jan 2008 20:30:32 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="windows-1250"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1807 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1807 X-Spam-Score: 4.1 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 2870a44b67ee17965ce5ad0177e150f4 Med^s are all on-sale today Save Time and Money, 100% safe http://ranmiddles.com From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 02 01:39:58 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J9xGg-0003LN-2a; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 01:39:58 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J9xGe-0004vI-Jc; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 01:39:58 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1J9x8y-0002iM-JL for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 06:32:00 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [202.224.39.217] (helo=mails1.asahi-net.or.jp) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1J9x8T-0002gB-7h for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 06:31:45 +0000 Received: from mailav1.asahi-net.or.jp (mailav1.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.220]) by mails1f.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with SMTP id 5844AC602 for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 15:31:28 +0900 (JST) Received: from mails2.asahi-net.or.jp ([202.224.39.218]) by mailav1.asahi-net.or.jp (NAVGW 2.5.2.9) with SMTP id M2008010215312724475 for ; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 15:31:27 +0900 Received: from limmax.priv.k2r.org (s163221.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [220.157.163.221]) by mails2.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7F4FC602 for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 15:31:27 +0900 (JST) Received: (qmail 62484 invoked by uid 1000); 2 Jan 2008 06:31:27 -0000 Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 15:31:27 +0900 From: Kenji Rikitake To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: EDNS0 revisions Message-ID: <20080102063127.GA62424%kenji.rikitake@acm.org> References: <1519.1198248144@sa.vix.com> <44421.1198800333@sa.vix.com> <47797903.1010206@opendns.com> <12789.1199162236@sa.vix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <12789.1199162236@sa.vix.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f In the message <12789.1199162236@sa.vix.com> dated Tue, Jan 01, 2008 at 04:36:53AM +0000, Paul Vixie writes: > still, it's possible that an older implementation wouldn't notice the OPT RR > at all. [...] The tinydns and dnscache of djbdns-1.05 does not notice the OPT RR at all. Also an interesting reference from this mailing list: http://www.ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2005/msg00842.html FYI // Kenji Rikitake -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From ahireqi@pcmidicenter.com Wed Jan 02 02:45:48 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J9yIO-0006Cl-ON for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 02:45:48 -0500 Received: from jackal.sys.es.osaka-u.ac.jp ([133.1.96.37] helo=pcmidicenter.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J9yIM-000498-54 for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 02:45:46 -0500 Message-ID: Reply-To: "Karyn Rutledgeps" From: "Karyn Rutledgeps" Subject: month nether To: Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 16:45:37 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aefe408d50e9c7c47615841cb314bed Hi, would you expect bigger slong http://www.slushfuns.com Carmella From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 02 06:22:26 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JA1g2-00026f-Fr; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 06:22:26 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JA1fz-0008Oe-M3; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 06:22:25 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JA1VK-000KPz-3m for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 11:11:22 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [204.152.184.167] (helo=mx.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JA1Un-000KOg-CG for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 11:11:10 +0000 Received: from farside.isc.org (farside.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:3:bb::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "farside.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (verified OK)) by mx.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96B0211401F; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 11:10:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Shane_Kerr@isc.org) Received: from [IPv6:2001:0:53aa:64c:92:2ae5:a82b:5d13] (unknown [IPv6:2001:0:53aa:64c:92:2ae5:a82b:5d13]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C1E6E6056; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 11:10:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from shane@isc.org) Message-ID: <477B712E.8060602@isc.org> Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 12:10:38 +0100 From: Shane Kerr Reply-To: shane_kerr@isc.org Organization: ISC User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071116) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Edward Lewis CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: In the spirit of Festivus References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca Ed, Edward Lewis wrote: > What I did was go to rfc-editor.org and searched for "DNS" in the RFCs. > The first two that pop up are RFC 1034 and 1035 naturally. To the right > is a list of RFCs that they obsoleted and RFCs that have since updated > them. What got me was that a handful of the updating RFCs are obsolete, > in one case the obsoleted RFC was obsoleted by an RFC which is also > obsolete. (The NSAP RR.) Many important RFCs (measuring by the impact > they have on the protocol definition) are not listed as updating the > original specifications. At least one of the RFCs updating the > originals did not pop up in the rest of the search list. > So - the question is - is this a matter of the IETF updating the RFC > Editor or is it a matter that the RFC Editor needs to clean this up? I > am a bit reluctant to blindly try to do this myself because when I have > tried to clean up matters in the IANA DNS parameters registry, my > efforts seem to go for naught[0]. (I've been doing that a bit each year > for about 4 now. There is a draft Andrew Sullivan has volunteered to > help write - sorry Andrew I haven't gotten back to you but I'm hung on > getting someone else else where [ex-ATM forum members] to clear > something up.) This has been a problem with IETF documents as long as I can remember. RFCs are a nightmare if you come from outside the IETF and want to implement an IETF standard. I don't see this as a DNS problem, although in DNS one feels it more keenly because it is an old, widely-used protocol. I mean, the search at the RFC Editor returns 144 matches on a search for "DNS"! A lot of "standards track" RFCs one can safely ignore, some one cannot. Given the IETF approach of working groups that are short-lived, there is no long-term maintenance of standards. I don't mean STD documents, I mean this in the larger sense of the collection of STD and RFC and other knowledge that comprises the *actual* interoperable protocols. Is it even a goal that someone not deeply involved in the IETF culture be able to implement an IETF protocol? There are some efforts to clean things up, but nothing structural as far as I can see. Of course, I don't read ietf@ietf.org, so maybe this is all a solved problem? ;) -- Shane -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From RoslynconduceJacobsen@fresnofamous.com Wed Jan 02 06:58:49 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JA2FE-0007UI-TM; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 06:58:48 -0500 Received: from 108-125-21-190.adsl.terra.cl ([190.21.125.108] helo=bcatalan) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JA2FE-0008SF-I3; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 06:58:48 -0500 Received: from injunction by fresnofamous.com with SMTP id ZoFuopq4JI for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 09:05:05 +0400 From: "Kaye Negron" To: Subject: Relax and have fun with poker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 1.7 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Get your bonus and walk the red carpet to winnings and fun. 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We give out BONUSES to anyone who joins. http://bestplayingsite.com/ From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 02 08:35:18 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JA3kc-0008MA-H1; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 08:35:18 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JA3kc-0001yX-3p; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 08:35:18 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JA3bD-0003Ry-E9 for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 13:25:35 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [212.9.189.167] (helo=mail.enyo.de) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JA3bA-0003RY-MP for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 13:25:34 +0000 Received: from deneb.vpn.enyo.de ([212.9.189.177] helo=deneb.enyo.de) by mail.enyo.de with esmtp id 1JA3b1-00083Z-4O; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 14:25:23 +0100 Received: from fw by deneb.enyo.de with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JA3ay-0004ao-88; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 14:25:20 +0100 From: Florian Weimer To: shane_kerr@isc.org Cc: Edward Lewis , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: In the spirit of Festivus References: <477B712E.8060602@isc.org> Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 14:25:20 +0100 In-Reply-To: <477B712E.8060602@isc.org> (Shane Kerr's message of "Wed, 02 Jan 2008 12:10:38 +0100") Message-ID: <87wsqs9x6n.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad * Shane Kerr: > I mean, the search at the RFC Editor returns 144 matches on a search for "DNS"! > A lot of "standards track" RFCs one can safely ignore, some one cannot. And this is not even the complete list. Some RFCs update 1034, 1035 or 1123 without explicitly saying so (and do not contain the magic string "DNS" in the title or the abstract, either). -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From DerrickeucharistRay@before-night-falls.com Wed Jan 02 09:49:07 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JA4u3-0002uw-5l; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 09:49:07 -0500 Received: from a213-22-217-11.cpe.netcabo.pt ([213.22.217.11] helo=oelm23h9ij74tu.netcabo.pt) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JA4u2-0003R6-Og; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 09:49:07 -0500 Received: from congolese by before-night-falls.com with SMTP id VAy9SaP6Wt for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 14:48:52 +0000 From: "Leon Willis" To: , Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JA4xX-0001Nj-44; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 09:52:43 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JA4xW-00037c-Nt; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 09:52:43 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JA4qw-0009yj-1j for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 14:45:54 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JA4qm-0009xw-Eq for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 14:45:46 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.104] (hlid.ogud.com [66.92.146.160]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m02EjWTo048689; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 09:45:37 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20080101145621.GA12639@outpost.ds9a.nl> References: <200801011424.m01EOe1A050852@drugs.dv.isc.org> <20080101145621.GA12639@outpost.ds9a.nl> Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 09:41:23 -0500 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Edward Lewis Subject: Re: EDNS0 revisions Cc: Edward Lewis Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 66.92.146.160 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 At 15:56 +0100 1/1/08, bert hubert wrote: >The PowerDNS Recursor does parse & react to OPT records. 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We give out BONUSES to anyone who joins. http://playingsitebest.net/ From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 02 10:10:40 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JA5Eu-0003Rt-Gv; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 10:10:40 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JA5Et-0003lS-VW; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 10:10:40 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JA5A6-000BoS-Ud for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 15:05:42 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JA5A4-000Bnz-2f for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 15:05:41 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.104] (hlid.ogud.com [66.92.146.160]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m02F5TKx048859; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 10:05:29 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200801020122.m021MI6A016667@drugs.dv.isc.org> References: <200801020122.m021MI6A016667@drugs.dv.isc.org> Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 09:55:53 -0500 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Edward Lewis Subject: Re: EDNS0 revisions Cc: Edward Lewis Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 66.92.146.160 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 At 12:22 +1100 1/2/08, Mark Andrews wrote: >Responding to my (Ed) words : >> Caveat - YMMV...as is always the case with any experiment. I was on >> an office-grade T-1 and self-rate-limited the UDP's out so they >> didn't trip on themselves at the first hop. > > Yet we know that there are clients behind overloaded links. I said that in the sense that I was careful not to drop many packets at my end. The experiment was a "fan out" - no single server got many requests (one per zone it was alleged to be serving neglecting retries). > These clients should be able to talk to EDNS servers like > they talk to DNS servers. A timeout should not trigger > fallback to DNS. Repeated timeouts to the same server > could protentially trigger a fallback. There's a tradeoff between complexity and results. If a query-issuing DNS process was thorough it would keep tabs on sources like we keep mental notes on local restaurants. But all that work on top of managing sessions on UDP is a lot of overhead (in code, not just in performance). My experiment told me that for the most part, if a server is able to respond at all it will do so on the first try. Under normal network weather conditions, a second try is usually superfluous (wasted effort). >> 2) There are name server implementations that will silently discard a >> query by policy. ... > > And such behaviour should be specifically discouraged as > it overloads what timeout means. It turns configuration > errors into denial of service attacks against caching > servers. RFC 1034 has REFUSED for a reason. > >> After some discussion I was convinced that there was merit to this >> approach, although the puritanical client-server protocol guy I am >> bristles with the notion that silence means error. But that's the >> network we have now. I feel compelled to repeat the previous paragraph again, but it's there and this is the second time I've sent it in a message - so I guess I did repeat it. One technique in operations to stop a flood of traffic from a single source is to black hole all traffic from that IP address (block, etc.). This is done at layer 3, not layer 7. Usually the source in this case is not playing nicely anyway and is not retrying the unanswered queries. In this sense, when abuse is suspected it's okay to not answer. One implementation just believes that queries "it feels it shouldn't be seeing" is a symptom of abuse. As much as I feel that is overly paranoid, I also see the point. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 NeuStar Think glocally. Act confused. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From Lemley@nelvidge.freeserve.cotmail.com Wed Jan 02 10:21:48 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JA5Pf-0004Gr-VC for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 10:21:47 -0500 Received: from host196-86-dynamic.54-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it ([82.54.86.196] helo=host120-82-dynamic.54-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JA5Pf-0004Uw-7A for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 10:21:47 -0500 Received: from acer-2e80a2a2f5 by nelvidge.freeserve.cotmail.com with ASMTP id 28C16DD0 for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 16:22:12 +0100 Received: from acer-2e80a2a2f5 ([162.190.159.179]) by nelvidge.freeserve.cotmail.com with ESMTP id 88C8C1742FFD for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 16:22:12 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 16:21:44 +0100 From: "nezir Lemley" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (Windows/20070326) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: ittehgir Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! 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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 02 11:34:44 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JA6YG-000598-OT; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 11:34:44 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JA6YE-00057U-AI; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 11:34:44 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JA6TI-000Jf9-TF for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 16:29:36 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HEADER_SPAM, RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JA6Sn-000JbB-VZ for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 16:29:23 +0000 Received: from mail.ogud.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m02GSwEI049631 for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 11:28:58 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers@mail.ogud.com) Received: (from namedroppers@localhost) by mail.ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id m02GSvpI049630 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 11:28:57 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers) Received: from [213.178.172.147] (helo=WOTAN.TR-Sys.de) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1J9cLt-000Gve-07 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 08:20:12 +0000 Received: from ZEUS.TR-Sys.de by w. with ESMTP ($Revision: 1.37.109.26 $/16.3) id AA207175542; Tue, 1 Jan 2008 09:19:02 +0100 Received: (from ah@localhost) by z.TR-Sys.de (8.9.3 (PHNE_25183)/8.7.3) id JAA25219; Tue, 1 Jan 2008 09:07:00 +0100 (MEZ) From: Alfred =?hp-roman8?B?SM5uZXM=?= Message-Id: <200801010807.JAA25219@TR-Sys.de> Subject: draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2671bis-edns0-00 (fwd) To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 09:06:59 +0100 (MEZ) X-Mailer: ELM [$Revision: 1.17.214.3 $] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=hp-roman8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 66.92.146.160 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 4515df9441674711565101d9d5c4f63f [ Moderators note: Post was moderated, either because it was posted by a non-subscriber, or because it was over 20K. With the massive amount of spam, it is easy to miss and therefore delete relevant posts by non-subscribers. Please fix your subscription addresses. ] ----- Forwarded message from Alfred HÎnes ----- >From A.Hoenes@TR-Sys.de Sat Dec 29 15:53:25 MEZ 2007 Received: from ZEUS.TR-Sys.de by w. with ESMTP ($Revision: 1.37.109.26 $/16.3) id AA190880004; Sat, 29 Dec 2007 15:53:24 +0100 Return-Path: Received: (from ah@localhost) by z.TR-Sys.de (8.9.3 (PHNE_25183)/8.7.3) id PAA20672; Sat, 29 Dec 2007 15:53:23 +0100 (MEZ) From: Alfred HÎnes To: vixie@isc.org Message-Id: <200712291453.PAA20672@TR-Sys.de> Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 15:53:22 +0100 (MEZ) Subject: draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2671bis-edns0-00 Hello, after studying the recently published Internet-Draft authored by you, draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2671bis-edns0-00, I'd like to submit a few comments. The items below are presented in textual order. Occasionally, to give more context, I quote larger blocks of text literally and show the replacement proposed using the shorthand notation: --- I also sometimes use change bars ('|' in column 1) and up/down pointing marker lines ('^^^'/'vvv') to emphasize the location of textual issues, proposed corrections, or new text. Modified or proposed new text has been (re-)adjusted to match RFC formatting rules, where appropriate. I also try to accomodate published RFC-Ed policy on style and punctuation etc. in my proposals. (1) Document Metadata and purpose The draft name seems to indicate that this draft is intended as a replacement for RFC 2671, but that is not stated explicitely. Also, other parts of the draft look like a hybrid of an update to, and a full replacement for, RFC 2671. I strongly recommend to build an unambiguous, self-contained replacement that will fully obsolete RFC 2671. All other solutions would certainly be a never ending source of confusion. (BTW: RFC 2821 once has incorporated the SMTP extension mechanism, ESMTP, into the updated SMTP specifiation, and the 2821bis draft continues this way. This conforms to the protocol design principle accepted in the IETF, that the basic specification of a protocol that is envisioned to be extended in various ways should always already describe and standardize the purposely crafted extensibility mechanisms needed to this end, to ensure interoperability with future extensions. Thus, it certainly would be very useful to incorporate the EDNS mechanism into an updated basic DNS protocol specification (which would be welcome for many more reasons anyway), but such effort is probably far out of scope currently.) I suggest to add (in common style) to the document heading: | Intended Status: Standards Track | Obsoletes: 2671 (if approved) (2) Section 1 In line with item (1) above, I suggest to add a paragraph to Section 1 (e.g., at the beginning of 1.2.) that introduces RFC 2671 and clarifies the relationship of this draft to it, for instance: 1.2. | [RFC2671] originally has proposed extensions to the basic DNS | protocol to overcome these deficiencies. This memo refines that | specification and obsoletes RFC 2671. Unextended agents ... (3) Section 2 and Section 3 IMHO, the draft is not explicit enough in stating its role in specifying the extensions / affected protocol elements. Also, as I understand the structure of the draft, Section 2 is intended as descriptive text, and the subsequent sections contain the normative text. I suggest to add, at the end of Section 2.1, a statement indicating the action performed by this memo, for instance: | The OPT pseudo-RR specified in Section 4 contains subfields that | carry a bit field extension of the RCODE field and additional flag | bits, respectively; for details see Section 4.6 below. W.r.t. Section 2.2, Section 7 contains the statement: This document assigns label type 0b01xxxxxx as "EDNS Extended Label Type." We request that IANA record this assignment. Hence, in Section 2.2 it should be made explicit that this memo reinforces the allocation made in Section 3 of RFC 2671. Preferably, the text in Section 3 should only contain precise normative content. The current text in Section 3 is only a review of the legacy, which should be appended to (or merged into) the current text of Section 2.2. This should be followed by a short preview/description of what this memo does w.r.t. label types. For instance, add to the end of 2.2: | Section 3 of this document reserves DNS labels with a first octet | in the range of 64-127 decimal (label type 01) for future | standardization of Extended DNS Labels. Similarly, in Section 2.3 the action of the memo should be made explicit. For instance, add to the end of 2.3: | To this end, the OPT pseudo-RR specified in Section 4 contains a | maximum payload size field; for details see Section 4.5 below. (4) Section 3 As stated above, I strongly recommend to only place normative text (and/or 'meta-normative' text, if you like) into Section 3. This text should be self-contained; the reader should not need the descriptive/informative sections to understand/implement the specification. For instance, the new text for Section 3 could be: | The first octet in the on-the-wire representation of a DNS label | specifies the label type; the basic DNS specification [RFC1035] | dedicates the two most significant bits of that octet for this | purpose. | | This document reserves DNS label type 0b01 for use as an indication | for Extended Label Types. A specific extended label type is selected | by the 6 least significant bits of the first octet. Thus, Extended | Label Types are indicated by the values 64-127 (0b01xxxxxx) in the | first octet of the label. | | Allocations from this range are to be made for IETF documents fully | describing the syntax and semantics as well as the applicability of | the particular Extended Label Type. | | This document does not describe any specific Extended Label Type. Note: Some details, like the word 'reserves' in the second paragraph above (vs. 'allocates'), and the allocation policy indicated in the 3rd paragraph, will need to be discussed. (5) Section 4.3 To improve the readability of the specification, I strongly recommend to explicitely state the numeical value of the RR type already allocated for the OPT pseudo-RR. Thus, please change: Field Name Field Type Description ------------------------------------------------------ NAME domain name empty (root domain) | TYPE u_int16_t OPT [...] --- Field Name Field Type Description ------------------------------------------------------ NAME domain name empty (root domain) | TYPE u_int16_t OPT (41) [...] ^^^^^ (6) Section 4.4 In the artwork in Section 4.4, there are no single-octet fields; Thus, the headline indicating byte offsets should be improved upon for added clarity. I suggest to change: +0 (MSB) +1 (LSB) +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 0: | [...] --- v v v | : +0 (MSB) : +1 (LSB) : +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 0: | [...] (7) Section 4.6 Note: This change recommended in item (6) above is not needed so much for the artwork in Section 4.6, but for the sake of uniformity, it might be applied there as well. I suggest to *not* quote the decimal representation of numerical field values in the text, to distinguish these from literal text constants. (The text also is inconsistent in using <"> and <''> for this purpose.) Thereby, the single occurrence of a violaton of 'rational quoting' in the text will be nullified as well. Thus, I suggest to change: EXTENDED-RCODE Forms upper 8 bits of extended 12-bit RCODE. Note | that EXTENDED-RCODE value "0" indicates that an ^ ^ v v v v | unextended RCODE is in use (values "0" through "15"). --- EXTENDED-RCODE Forms upper 8 bits of extended 12-bit RCODE. Note | that EXTENDED-RCODE value 0 indicates that an | unextended RCODE is in use (values 0 through 15). and: VERSION Indicates the implementation level of whoever sets it. Full conformance with this specification is indicated | by version ``0.'' Requestors are encouraged to set ^^ ^^^ this to the lowest implemented level capable of expressing a transaction, [...] --- VERSION Indicates the implementation level of whoever sets it. Full conformance with this specification is indicated | by version 0. Requestors are encouraged to set this to the lowest implemented level capable of expressing a transaction, [...] (8) Section 7 Neither RFC 2929 nor I-D 2929bis cover the EDNS sub-registries rooted in RFC 2671: "EDNS Extended Label Type" "EDNS Option Codes" "EDNS Version Numbers" Thus, the draft should advise IANA to 're-parent' those sub-registries to this memo, and it should contain full IANA considerations for all three sub-registries, including allocation policy statements, in conformance with BCP 26, RFC 2424. Also, I recommend to more clearly and uniformly state the specific sub-registry addressed in all allocation statements, for the ease of readers less experienced with DNS details (including IANA staff). (9) Section 9 I suggest to use the common punctuation style, in conformance with contemporary RFC author guides. For instance, change: | [RFC1035] P. Mockapetris, ``Domain Names - Implementation and | Specification,'' RFC 1035, USC/Information Sciences | Institute, November 1987. --- | [RFC1035] P. Mockapetris, "Domain Names - Implementation and | Specification", STD 13, RFC 1035, November 1987. | [RFC2119] S. Bradner, ``Key words for use in RFCs to Indicate | Requirement Levels,'' RFC 2119, Harvard University, March 1997. --- | [RFC2119] S. Bradner, "Key words for use in RFCs to Indicate | Requirement Levels", BCP 14, RFC 2119, March 1997. etc. ... Best regards, and my best wishes for the New Year, Alfred HÎnes. -- +------------------------+--------------------------------------------+ | TR-Sys Alfred Hoenes | Alfred Hoenes Dipl.-Math., Dipl.-Phys. | | Gerlinger Strasse 12 | Phone: (+49)7156/9635-0, Fax: -18 | | D-71254 Ditzingen | E-Mail: ah@TR-Sys.de | +------------------------+--------------------------------------------+ ----- End of forwarded message from Alfred HÎnes ----- -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 02 11:35:39 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JA6Z9-0005JC-UO; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 11:35:39 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JA6Z7-00058L-Ly; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 11:35:39 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JA6Sj-000Jb0-Qg for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 16:29:01 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HEADER_SPAM, RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JA6SM-000JYd-3e for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 16:28:50 +0000 Received: from mail.ogud.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m02GSTsP049624 for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 11:28:29 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers@mail.ogud.com) Received: (from namedroppers@localhost) by mail.ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id m02GSTB3049623 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 11:28:29 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers) Received: from [213.178.172.147] (helo=WOTAN.TR-Sys.de) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JA4bD-0008TL-Hb for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 14:30:48 +0000 Received: from ZEUS.TR-Sys.de by w. with ESMTP ($Revision: 1.37.109.26 $/16.3) id AA215914009; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 15:26:49 +0100 Received: (from ah@localhost) by z.TR-Sys.de (8.9.3 (PHNE_25183)/8.7.3) id PAA27368; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 15:25:51 +0100 (MEZ) From: Alfred =?hp-roman8?B?SM5uZXM=?= Message-Id: <200801021425.PAA27368@TR-Sys.de> Subject: draft-ietf-dnsext-ecc-key-10 To: Donald.Eastlake@motorola.com, rschroe@sandia.gov Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 15:25:51 +0100 (MEZ) Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org X-Mailer: ELM [$Revision: 1.17.214.3 $] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=hp-roman8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 66.92.146.160 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: a1dc446dc7ac353b90b60743d0e479e3 [ Moderators note: Post was moderated, either because it was posted by a non-subscriber, or because it was over 20K. With the massive amount of spam, it is easy to miss and therefore delete relevant posts by non-subscribers. Please fix your subscription addresses. ] Hello, as already indicated to you, Donald, I also have reviewed the (formally expired) Internet-Draft authored by you, draft-ietf-dnsext-ecc-key-10. IMHO, should ever DNSSEC want to be successfully deployed, there will be a strong need for ECC to use (see Section 6 of your draft). Thus, this document will be needed as an integral part of any serious DNSSEC deployment at large. After the separation of DNSSEC keying material from other keying material potentially to be stored in the DNS has been performed a few years ago (to accomodate the lack of selective lookup and response size considerations), it is certainly a good idea to have a single format for ECC keys and ECC signatures, respectively, independent from the particular use case. Doing so simplifies the code base and thereby eventually adds to the overall security. I therefore strongly support continuing this effort. The comments below address all kinds of flaws and issues I got aware of studying the -10 revision of your memo and quickly looking at a few details of its evolution so far. The items below are presented in textual order. To give more context, sometimes I quote larger blocks of text literally and show the replacement proposed using the shorthand notation: --- I use change bars ('|' in column 1) and occasionally up/down pointing marker lines ('^^^'/'vvv') to emphasize the location of textual issues and/or proposed corrections. Modified text has been re-adjusted to match RFC formatting rules, where appropriate. I also try to accomodate published RFC-Ed policy on style and punctuation etc. in my proposals. (1) General topics (1a) Your draft still sometimes makes use of the (mostly) deprecated first-generation DNSSEC RR type names where it is clear that it should better refer to *any* type of RR carrying ECC keys or, to a lesser extent, ECC signatures. Below, I'll point in detail to the places to be improved. (1b) A few citations have slipped past the trailing period of the sentence they belong to. Below, I'll point in detail to the places to be corrected. (1c) An editorial accident must have happened, replacing all apostrophes in the text by dollar signs, so please: s/\$/'/g I will not list the details belo unless a text fragment needs to be quoted for other reasons as well. (2) Section 1 (2a) first paragraph -- instance of (1b) I suggest to move the references closely to the primary key word, DNS: The Domain Name System (DNS) is the global hierarchical replicated distributed database system for Internet addressing, mail proxy, and | other information. [RFC1034] [RFC1035] The DNS stores data in resource records and has been extended to include digital signatures and cryptographic keys in some of these resource records. --- | The Domain Name System (DNS) [RFC1034] [RFC1035] is the global hierarchical replicated distributed database system for Internet | addressing, mail proxy, and other information. The DNS stores data in resource records and has been extended to include digital signatures and cryptographic keys in some of these resource records. (2b) second paragraph -- typo s/eigest/digest/ (3) Section 2 (3a) first paragraph -- re: (1a) The text refers to "RRKEY" RRs. What's that? Perhaps "DNSKEY" !!! (Shame over all DNSSEC gurus not having detected that flaw over so many years!) I suggest to introduce a shorthand notation for 'generic' RRs carrying ECC keys, and making use of that term subsequently: Elliptic curve public keys are stored, using the structure described | below, in the DNS within the RDATA portions of key RRs, such as RRKEY [RFC4034] and IPSECKEY [RFC4025] RRs. --- ^^ Elliptic curve public keys are stored, using the structure described below, in the DNS within the RDATA portions of key RRs, such as | DNSKEY [RFC4034] and IPSECKEY [RFC4025] RRs. Below, such resource | records will be denoted generically as ECK RRs. | Future specifications of DNS RRs designated to store application | specific keying material may state their possible ECC variant by | simply declaring the RR as an ECK RR in the sense of this Section. (3b) diagram In the representation of the first octet of the ECK data structure, I suggest to remove the hyphens enclosing 'FMT', making the notation more conformant to the subsequent text that talks about the 'SMFMTABZ' flag octet. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- ... |S M -FMT- A B Z| +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | ... --- +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- ... |S M FMT A B Z| +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | ... Alternatively, perhaps easier to read, more precise, and more common in style, it should be considered to make the description one-stage hierarchical for these flags. To this end, a) change the above quoted detail to: +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- ... | ECKflags | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | ... b) replace the first line below the (2-part) diagram, SMFMTABZ is a flags octet as follows: by the following snippit: ------snip------ The ECKflags field is structured as follows: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ |S|M| FMT |A|B|Z| +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ------snip------ (4) Section 5 (4a) first paragraph I suggest to make precise reference to the "SIG (0)" RRs that have survived the DNSSEC rev.1 massacre: The signature portion of an RR RDATA area when using the ECC algorithm, for example in the SIG and RRSIG [RFC4034] RRs is shown below. --- The signature portion of an RR RDATA area when using the ECC algorithm, for example in the "SIG (0)" [RFC2535][RFC2931] and "RRSIG" [RFC4034] RRs is shown below. I have added double quotes in both cases for the sake of uniformity. References to bothe RFC 2931 (Normative) and RFC 2535 (Obsoleted, hence only Informative possible) would need to be added when following this recommendation. (4b) second paragraph "KEY RR" is too specific there. For seamless continuation from Section 2, I suggest to change: R and S are integers (mod Q). Their length is specified by the LQ | field of the corresponding KEY RR and can also be calculated from the v ^^^ | SIG RR$s RDLENGTH. They are right justified, high-order-octet first. --- R and S are integers (mod Q). Their length is specified by the LQ | field of the corresponding ECK RR and can also be calculated from the ^^^ | SIG RR's RDLENGTH. They are right justified, high-order-octet first. (4c) explanations of the 'S' EC signature field For added calrity of the structure of the explanations, I propose to indent the additional clauses given to the same level as used in the explanations for the 'R' EC signature field : S = ( K^(-1) * (hash + X*R) ) mod Q. | S must not be 0. In this astronomically unlikely event, generate a new random K and recalculate R and S. | If S > Q/2, set S = Q - S. The pair (R,S) is the signature. --- S = ( K^(-1) * (hash + X*R) ) mod Q. | S must not be 0. In this astronomically unlikely event, generate a new random K and recalculate R and S. | If S > Q/2, set S = Q - S. The pair (R,S) is the signature. (4d) last paragraph -- typo s/ragne/range/ (5) Section 6, second paragraph s/and and/and/ (6) Section 7, first paragraph Item (1c) applies. Also, I suggest to leave RFC 4034 off the ref's used here, as this text explains procedural/policy aspects, not on-the-wire format issues. This, I propose to change: Keys retrieved from the DNS should not be trusted unless (1) they have been securely obtained from a secure resolver or independently verified by the user and (2) this secure resolver and secure obtainment or independent verification conform to security policies | acceptable to the user. [RFC4033] [RFC4034] [RFC4035] As with all cryptographic algorithms, evaluating the necessary strength of the key is essential and dependent on local policy. --- Keys retrieved from the DNS should not be trusted unless (1) they have been securely obtained from a secure resolver or independently verified by the user and (2) this secure resolver and secure obtainment or independent verification conform to security policies | acceptable to the user [RFC4033] [RFC4035]. As with all cryptographic algorithms, evaluating the necessary strength of the key is essential and dependent on local policy. (7) Section 8 -- typo s/in/is/ : Assignment of meaning to the remaining ECC data flag bits or to | values of ECC fields outside the ranges for which meaning in defined in this document requires an IETF consensus as defined in [RFC2434]. --- ^v Assignment of meaning to the remaining ECC data flag bits or to | values of ECC fields outside the ranges for which meaning is defined in this document requires an IETF consensus as defined in [RFC2434]. (8) References (8a) incomplete references Some references given are incomplete, omitting STD or BCP designations, or even omitting the RFC number, e.g.: [RFC2119] - S. Bradner, "Key words for use in RFCs to Indicate | Requirement Levels", March 1997. --- [RFC2119] - S. Bradner, "Key words for use in RFCs to Indicate | Requirement Levels", BCP 14, RFC 2119, March 1997. I suggest to replace the following ref's with the approriate standard lines from rfc-ref.txt: [RFC2119] (see above), [RFC2434] (BCP 26) [RFC1034] (STD 13) [RFC1035] (STD 13) [RFC2671] (Note: update in progress!, might refer to w.i.p.) [RFC4025] (8b) ECC References The ECC References given in the draft are quite aged and might be difficult to obtain (as I had experienced already a few years ago). I therefore would like to propose to make a ref. to the much more recent 'HEHCC': Roberto Avanzi, Christophe Doche, Tanja Lange, Kim Nguyen, et al., "Handbook of Elliptic an Hyperelliptic Curve Cryptography", Chapmann & Hall / CRC, 2006, . It might also be useful to quote the readily online SECG documents from , already repeatedly referenced in RFCs. Best regards, Alfred HÎnes. -- +------------------------+--------------------------------------------+ | TR-Sys Alfred Hoenes | Alfred Hoenes Dipl.-Math., Dipl.-Phys. | | Gerlinger Strasse 12 | Phone: (+49)7156/9635-0, Fax: -18 | | D-71254 Ditzingen | E-Mail: ah@TR-Sys.de | +------------------------+--------------------------------------------+ -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 02 11:37:09 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JA6ab-0005Uu-0N; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 11:37:09 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JA6aa-00059S-Ln; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 11:37:08 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JA6Ru-000JUQ-4a for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 16:28:10 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [204.152.187.1] (helo=sa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JA6RO-000JQP-0P for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 16:27:55 +0000 Received: from sa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E93E1142E for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 16:27:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@sa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: EDNS0 revisions In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 02 Jan 2008 15:31:27 +0900." <20080102063127.GA62424%kenji.rikitake@acm.org> References: <1519.1198248144@sa.vix.com> <44421.1198800333@sa.vix.com> <47797903.1010206@opendns.com> <12789.1199162236@sa.vix.com> <20080102063127.GA62424%kenji.rikitake@acm.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.0.2; nmh 1.0.4; GNU Emacs 21.3.1 Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 16:27:22 +0000 Message-ID: <3684.1199291242@sa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab > > still, it's possible that an older implementation wouldn't notice the OPT > > RR at all. [...] > > The tinydns and dnscache of djbdns-1.05 does not notice the OPT RR at all. as i said before, nothing about 1034 or 1035 requires a SERVFAIL or FORMERR when a query contains an unexpected additional-data section. > Also an interesting reference from this mailing list: > http://www.ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2005/msg00842.html in retrospect, that test plan assumes too much about non-EDNS0 clients and servers. considerable latitude has to be shown by an EDNS0 initiator as far as determining that the responder doesn't speak EDNS0. either all of the various possible kinds of non-EDNS0 behaviour have to be enumerated, and the test matrix needs more rows and columns, or else we have to admit that this approach will have only limited application. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From Crotta@mgoddard.flyer.co.uk Wed Jan 02 11:56:57 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JA6tl-0007hM-MV for dnsext-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 11:56:57 -0500 Received: from [88.250.10.172] (helo=dsl88-250-2732.ttnet.net.tr) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JA6tk-0006Wp-JX for dnsext-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 11:56:57 -0500 Received: from erman_tetik ([141.152.84.155] helo=erman_tetik) by dsl88-250-2732.ttnet.net.tr ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1cUJPa-000NZE-Fk for dnsext-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 18:56:20 +0200 Message-ID: <8F9AAB51.7791EC5A@mgoddard.flyer.co.uk> Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 18:55:45 +0200 From: "Berardino Crotta" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (Windows/20070326) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: sanaberi Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------010206060604010004020706" X-Spam-Score: 4.6 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 --------------010206060604010004020706 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Don't hesitate - in 2008, make sure you no longer have a small penis! http://Ghoosbalst.com/ --------------010206060604010004020706 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Don't hesitate - in 2008, make sure you no longer have a small penis! http://Ghoosbalst.com/
--------------010206060604010004020706-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 02 12:00:20 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JA6x2-00037x-IC; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 12:00:20 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JA6x1-0005UW-48; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 12:00:20 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JA6sh-000MLm-Cq for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 16:55:51 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [216.82.253.51] (helo=mail153.messagelabs.com) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JA6sJ-000MJp-Jz for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 16:55:39 +0000 X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: Donald.Eastlake@motorola.com X-Msg-Ref: server-10.tower-153.messagelabs.com!1199292921!6041499!1 X-StarScan-Version: 5.5.12.14.2; banners=-,-,- X-Originating-IP: [144.189.100.105] Received: (qmail 26427 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2008 16:55:22 -0000 Received: from motgate5.mot.com (HELO motgate5.mot.com) (144.189.100.105) by server-10.tower-153.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 2 Jan 2008 16:55:22 -0000 Received: from az33exr02.mot.com (az33exr02.mot.com [10.64.251.232]) by motgate5.mot.com (8.12.11/Motorola) with ESMTP id m02GtLtK027708 for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 09:55:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from az10vts01 (az10vts01.mot.com [10.64.251.242]) by az33exr02.mot.com (8.13.1/Vontu) with SMTP id m02GtKgV017756 for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 10:55:20 -0600 (CST) Received: from de01exm64.ds.mot.com (de01exm64.am.mot.com [10.176.8.15]) by az33exr02.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id m02GtI5O017736 for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 10:55:19 -0600 (CST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: draft-ietf-dnsext-ecc-key-10 Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 11:55:16 -0500 Message-ID: <3870C46029D1F945B1472F170D2D979003622331@de01exm64.ds.mot.com> In-Reply-To: <200801021425.PAA27368@TR-Sys.de> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-dnsext-ecc-key-10 Thread-Index: AchNTDwuhDGquXgUTtGLq6fZQl9sQgAEzIBw References: <200801021425.PAA27368@TR-Sys.de> From: "Eastlake III Donald-LDE008" To: "Alfred HNnes" , Cc: X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 73f7847c44628482de9d5f1018acf469 Hi Alfred, Thank you for these detailed comments which I will review. However, it = is very unlikely that this (expired) draft in anything like its current = form will be advanced in the near future. Will I agree that the case for = ECC in DNSSEC is very strong, it more likely that a much less general = approach, targeted at supporting a few specific ECC types at most, would = meet with more success, both in the standards process and in = deployments, than the generality of draft-ietf-dnsext-ecc-key-10. Donald =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-786-7554 (work) Motorola Laboratories 111 Locke Drive Marlborough, MA 01752 USA Donald.Eastlake@motorola.com -----Original Message----- From: Alfred HNnes [mailto:ah@tr-sys.de]=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 9:26 AM To: Eastlake III Donald-LDE008; rschroe@sandia.gov Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: draft-ietf-dnsext-ecc-key-10 Hello, as already indicated to you, Donald, I also have reviewed the (formally expired) Internet-Draft authored by you, draft-ietf-dnsext-ecc-key-10. IMHO, should ever DNSSEC want to be successfully deployed, there will be a strong need for ECC to use (see Section 6 of your draft). Thus, this document will be needed as an integral part of any serious DNSSEC deployment at large. After the separation of DNSSEC keying material from other keying material potentially to be stored in the DNS has been performed a few years ago (to accomodate the lack of selective lookup and response size considerations), it is certainly a good idea to have a single format for ECC keys and ECC signatures, respectively, independent from the particular use case. Doing so simplifies the code base and thereby eventually adds to the overall security. I therefore strongly support continuing this effort. The comments below address all kinds of flaws and issues I got aware of studying the -10 revision of your memo and quickly looking at a few details of its evolution so far. The items below are presented in textual order. To give more context, sometimes I quote larger blocks of text literally and show the replacement proposed using the shorthand notation: --- I use change bars ('|' in column 1) and occasionally up/down pointing marker lines ('^^^'/'vvv') to emphasize the location of textual issues and/or proposed corrections. Modified text has been re-adjusted to match RFC formatting rules, where appropriate. I also try to accomodate published RFC-Ed policy on style and punctuation etc. in my proposals. (1) General topics (1a) Your draft still sometimes makes use of the (mostly) deprecated first-generation DNSSEC RR type names where it is clear that it should better refer to *any* type of RR carrying ECC keys or, to a lesser extent, ECC signatures. Below, I'll point in detail to the places to be improved. (1b) A few citations have slipped past the trailing period of the sentence they belong to. Below, I'll point in detail to the places to be corrected. (1c) An editorial accident must have happened, replacing all apostrophes in the text by dollar signs, so please: s/\$/'/g I will not list the details belo unless a text fragment needs to be quoted for other reasons as well. (2) Section 1 (2a) first paragraph -- instance of (1b) I suggest to move the references closely to the primary key word, DNS: The Domain Name System (DNS) is the global hierarchical replicated distributed database system for Internet addressing, mail proxy, and | other information. [RFC1034] [RFC1035] The DNS stores data in resource records and has been extended to include digital signatures and cryptographic keys in some of these resource records. --- | The Domain Name System (DNS) [RFC1034] [RFC1035] is the global hierarchical replicated distributed database system for Internet | addressing, mail proxy, and other information. The DNS stores data in resource records and has been extended to include digital signatures and cryptographic keys in some of these resource records. (2b) second paragraph -- typo s/eigest/digest/ (3) Section 2 (3a) first paragraph -- re: (1a) The text refers to "RRKEY" RRs. What's that? Perhaps "DNSKEY" !!! (Shame over all DNSSEC gurus not having detected that flaw over so many years!) I suggest to introduce a shorthand notation for 'generic' RRs carrying ECC keys, and making use of that term subsequently: Elliptic curve public keys are stored, using the structure described | below, in the DNS within the RDATA portions of key RRs, such as RRKEY [RFC4034] and IPSECKEY [RFC4025] RRs. --- ^^ Elliptic curve public keys are stored, using the structure described below, in the DNS within the RDATA portions of key RRs, such as | DNSKEY [RFC4034] and IPSECKEY [RFC4025] RRs. Below, such resource | records will be denoted generically as ECK RRs. | Future specifications of DNS RRs designated to store application | specific keying material may state their possible ECC variant by | simply declaring the RR as an ECK RR in the sense of this Section. (3b) diagram In the representation of the first octet of the ECK data structure, I suggest to remove the hyphens enclosing 'FMT', making the notation more conformant to the subsequent text that talks about the 'SMFMTABZ' flag octet. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- ... |S M -FMT- A B Z| +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | ... --- +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- ... |S M FMT A B Z| +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | ... Alternatively, perhaps easier to read, more precise, and more common in style, it should be considered to make the description one-stage hierarchical for these flags. To this end, a) change the above quoted detail to: +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- ... | ECKflags | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | ... b) replace the first line below the (2-part) diagram, SMFMTABZ is a flags octet as follows: by the following snippit: ------snip------ The ECKflags field is structured as follows: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ |S|M| FMT |A|B|Z| +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ------snip------ (4) Section 5 (4a) first paragraph I suggest to make precise reference to the "SIG (0)" RRs that have survived the DNSSEC rev.1 massacre: The signature portion of an RR RDATA area when using the ECC algorithm, for example in the SIG and RRSIG [RFC4034] RRs is shown below. --- The signature portion of an RR RDATA area when using the ECC algorithm, for example in the "SIG (0)" [RFC2535][RFC2931] and "RRSIG" [RFC4034] RRs is shown below. I have added double quotes in both cases for the sake of uniformity. References to bothe RFC 2931 (Normative) and RFC 2535 (Obsoleted, hence only Informative possible) would need to be added when following this recommendation. (4b) second paragraph "KEY RR" is too specific there. For seamless continuation from Section 2, I suggest to change: R and S are integers (mod Q). Their length is specified by the LQ | field of the corresponding KEY RR and can also be calculated from the v ^^^ | SIG RR$s RDLENGTH. They are right justified, high-order-octet first. --- R and S are integers (mod Q). Their length is specified by the LQ | field of the corresponding ECK RR and can also be calculated from the ^^^ | SIG RR's RDLENGTH. They are right justified, high-order-octet first. (4c) explanations of the 'S' EC signature field For added calrity of the structure of the explanations, I propose to indent the additional clauses given to the same level as used in the explanations for the 'R' EC signature field : S =3D ( K^(-1) * (hash + X*R) ) mod Q. | S must not be 0. In this astronomically unlikely event, generate a new random K and recalculate R and S. | If S > Q/2, set S =3D Q - S. The pair (R,S) is the signature. --- S =3D ( K^(-1) * (hash + X*R) ) mod Q. | S must not be 0. In this astronomically unlikely event, generate a new random K and recalculate R and S. | If S > Q/2, set S =3D Q - S. The pair (R,S) is the signature. (4d) last paragraph -- typo s/ragne/range/ (5) Section 6, second paragraph s/and and/and/ (6) Section 7, first paragraph Item (1c) applies. Also, I suggest to leave RFC 4034 off the ref's used here, as this text explains procedural/policy aspects, not on-the-wire format issues. This, I propose to change: Keys retrieved from the DNS should not be trusted unless (1) they have been securely obtained from a secure resolver or independently verified by the user and (2) this secure resolver and secure obtainment or independent verification conform to security policies | acceptable to the user. [RFC4033] [RFC4034] [RFC4035] As with all cryptographic algorithms, evaluating the necessary strength of the key is essential and dependent on local policy. --- Keys retrieved from the DNS should not be trusted unless (1) they have been securely obtained from a secure resolver or independently verified by the user and (2) this secure resolver and secure obtainment or independent verification conform to security policies | acceptable to the user [RFC4033] [RFC4035]. As with all cryptographic algorithms, evaluating the necessary strength of the key is essential and dependent on local policy. (7) Section 8 -- typo s/in/is/ : Assignment of meaning to the remaining ECC data flag bits or to | values of ECC fields outside the ranges for which meaning in defined in this document requires an IETF consensus as defined in [RFC2434]. --- ^v Assignment of meaning to the remaining ECC data flag bits or to | values of ECC fields outside the ranges for which meaning is defined in this document requires an IETF consensus as defined in [RFC2434]. (8) References (8a) incomplete references Some references given are incomplete, omitting STD or BCP designations, or even omitting the RFC number, e.g.: [RFC2119] - S. Bradner, "Key words for use in RFCs to Indicate | Requirement Levels", March 1997. --- [RFC2119] - S. Bradner, "Key words for use in RFCs to Indicate | Requirement Levels", BCP 14, RFC 2119, March 1997. I suggest to replace the following ref's with the approriate standard lines from rfc-ref.txt: [RFC2119] (see above), [RFC2434] (BCP 26) [RFC1034] (STD 13) [RFC1035] (STD 13) [RFC2671] (Note: update in progress!, might refer to w.i.p.) [RFC4025] (8b) ECC References The ECC References given in the draft are quite aged and might be difficult to obtain (as I had experienced already a few years ago). I therefore would like to propose to make a ref. to the much more recent 'HEHCC': Roberto Avanzi, Christophe Doche, Tanja Lange, Kim Nguyen, et al., "Handbook of Elliptic an Hyperelliptic Curve Cryptography", Chapmann & Hall / CRC, 2006, . It might also be useful to quote the readily online SECG documents from , already repeatedly referenced in RFCs. Best regards, Alfred H=CEnes. --=20 +------------------------+--------------------------------------------+ | TR-Sys Alfred Hoenes | Alfred Hoenes Dipl.-Math., Dipl.-Phys. | | Gerlinger Strasse 12 | Phone: (+49)7156/9635-0, Fax: -18 | | D-71254 Ditzingen | E-Mail: ah@TR-Sys.de | +------------------------+--------------------------------------------+ -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 02 12:13:52 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JA7A8-00014I-Ea; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 12:13:52 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JA7A7-0005jb-Nv; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 12:13:52 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JA751-000NZ8-Tx for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 17:08:35 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE, RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JA74V-000NUq-IO for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 17:08:20 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.104] (hlid.ogud.com [66.92.146.160]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m02H7m3E050009; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 12:07:49 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 12:06:13 -0500 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Edward Lewis Subject: Re: I-D Action:draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2671bis-edns0-00.txt Cc: ed.lewis@neustar.biz Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1012828825==_ma============" Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: ee80a2074afbfe28d15369f4e74e579d --============_-1012828825==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Regarding: >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2671bis-edns0-00.txt # 4.6. The extended RCODE and flags (which OPT stores in the RR TTL # field) are structured as follows: # # +0 (MSB) +1 (LSB) # +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ # 0: | EXTENDED-RCODE | VERSION | # +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ # 2: | DO| Z | # +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ # # # EXTENDED-RCODE Forms upper 8 bits of extended 12-bit RCODE. Note # that EXTENDED-RCODE value "0" indicates that an # unextended RCODE is in use (values "0" through "15"). 12 bits or 16 bits? Or is the "12-bit RCODE" are reference to the concatination of the header RCODE and the EXTENDED_RCODE? (Searching though the file, that is the only occurrence of the number twelve.) # 5 - Transport Considerations ... # 5.2. Lack of use of these features in a request is an indication that # the requestor does not implement any part of this specification and # that the responder SHOULD NOT use any protocol extension described # here in its response. It isn't an indication that the requestor does not implement, but that the requestor has chosen not to want to use the extension. # 6 - Security Considerations Perhaps we can turn the security considerations on its head and use the section to state that security activities assuming the 512 byte limit or making other assumptions about the DNS packet have been known to cause havoc with the correct and legitimate functioning of the DNS protocol. # 7 - IANA Considerations ... # This document assigns option code 65535 to "Reserved for future # expansion." s/option code/EDNS Extended Option code/ ? -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 NeuStar Think glocally. Act confused. --============_-1012828825==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: I-D Action:draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2671bis-edns0-00.txt
Regarding:
>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2671bis-edns0-00.txt

#   4.6. The extended RCODE and flags (which OPT stores in the RR TTL
#   field) are structured as follows:
#
#                    +0 (MSB)                            +1 (LSB)
#         +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
#      0: |         EXTENDED-RCODE        |            VERSION            |
#         +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
#      2: | DO|                           Z                               |
#         +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
#
#
#   EXTENDED-RCODE  Forms upper 8 bits of extended 12-bit RCODE.  Note
#                   that EXTENDED-RCODE value "0" indicates that an
#                   unextended RCODE is in use (values "0" through "15").

12 bits or 16 bits?  Or is the "12-bit RCODE" are reference to the concatination of the header RCODE and the EXTENDED_RCODE?  (Searching though the file, that is the only occurrence of the number twelve.)

#   5 - Transport Considerations
...
#   5.2. Lack of use of these features in a request is an indication that
#   the requestor does not implement any part of this specification and
#   that the responder SHOULD NOT use any protocol extension described
#   here in its response.
It isn't an indication that the requestor does not implement, but that the requestor has chosen not to want to use the extension.

#   6 - Security Considerations
Perhaps we can turn the security considerations on its head and use the section to state that security activities assuming the 512 byte limit or making other assumptions about the DNS packet have been known to cause havoc with the correct and legitimate functioning of the DNS protocol.

#   7 - IANA Considerations
...
#   This document assigns option code 65535 to "Reserved for future
#   expansion."
        s/option code/EDNS Extended Option code/ ?

--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Edward Lewis                                                +1-571-434-5468
NeuStar

Think glocally.  Act confused.
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scuttles across the quiet This gap in time, this season not their own, From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 03 08:14:12 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAPtk-0005S4-HK; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 08:14:12 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAPtk-0007Uo-6S; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 08:14:12 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JAPj1-000B6I-57 for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 13:03:07 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [192.134.4.11] (helo=mx2.nic.fr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JAPix-000B60-Rs for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 13:03:05 +0000 Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id B04FB1C00D3; Thu, 3 Jan 2008 14:03:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAB3F1C009B; Thu, 3 Jan 2008 14:03:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 539DB58ECBB; Thu, 3 Jan 2008 14:03:02 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 14:03:02 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Shane Kerr Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: In the spirit of Festivus Message-ID: <20080103130302.GA25097@nic.fr> References: <477B712E.8060602@isc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <477B712E.8060602@isc.org> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-5-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 On Wed, Jan 02, 2008 at 12:10:38PM +0100, Shane Kerr wrote a message of 52 lines which said: > I mean, the search at the RFC Editor returns 144 matches on a search for "DNS"! > A lot of "standards track" RFCs one can safely ignore, some one cannot. > > Given the IETF approach of working groups that are short-lived, there is no > long-term maintenance of standards. An effort have been done for some protocols, either to update the base definition (SMTP : RFC 821 -> 2821 -> 2821bis currently in Last Call), or to document the various RFCs with indication of which are important and what is not in the RFCs (TCP : RFC 4614). Clearly, the DNS needs its RFC 4614. 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Who volunteers? Someone has, stay tuned for official announcement and draft plan next week. Olafur -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 03 20:48:52 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAbg4-0002Ur-MT; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 20:48:52 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAbg4-0004S6-B1; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 20:48:52 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JAbbL-0001h3-O5 for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 04 Jan 2008 01:43:59 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JAbbI-0001gh-SG for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Jan 2008 01:43:58 +0000 Received: from Puki.ogud.com (hlid.ogud.com [66.92.146.160]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m041hq4v059980 for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2008 20:43:53 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ogud@ogud.com) Message-Id: <200801040143.m041hq4v059980@ogud.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 20:43:48 -0500 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3lafur?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Gu=F0mundsson?= /DNSEXT chair Subject: ECC future direction for DNSSEC Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 66.92.146.160 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 Note: This message is to start discussion for the benefit of the chair and AD(s) on this topic. After some discussions with various security and DNS people, I'm going to recommend DNSEXT take a different approach in adding ECC to DNSSEC than was proposed in draft-ietf-dnsext-ecc-key-10 Background: The old ECC approach in the crypto community followed the philosophy "Let 10,000 flowers bloom" by allowing multiple different curves to be standardized. The ecc-key draft reflects this approach. The new philosophy is "pick one curve at each strength level", there are number of reasons why the philosophy has changed including Interoperabilty and community feeling that ECC is better understood and rational choices can be made. Proposed Path Forward: DNSEXT should a. Pick 2 curves and allocate algorithm codes for them in the near future[1] b. Decide if we want to use ECDSA signature standard or look for something faster as our signature method. c. Decide if each curve+digest selected gets its own DNSKEY algorithm codes (one for each of NSEC + NSEC3) or all ECC curves share algorithm codes. d. Alternatively: Decide it does not want to do ECC and state why. Comments? Olafur [1] the suggested curves are p265 and p384 -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 03 21:25:39 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAcFf-0000o1-PC; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 21:25:39 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAcFf-000524-At; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 21:25:39 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JAc8O-0004eu-8s for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 04 Jan 2008 02:18:08 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [204.152.184.167] (helo=mx.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JAc7s-0004dM-OE for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Jan 2008 02:17:52 +0000 Received: from farside.isc.org (farside.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:3:bb::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "farside.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (verified OK)) by mx.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7146811401F for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2008 02:17:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Mark_Andrews@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost.isc.org [IPv6:::1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (verified OK)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04BAFE6056 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2008 02:17:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m042HQvX092980; Fri, 4 Jan 2008 13:17:26 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200801040217.m042HQvX092980@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3lafur?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Gu=F0mundsson?= /DNSEXT chair Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: ECC future direction for DNSSEC In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 03 Jan 2008 20:43:48 CDT." <200801040143.m041hq4v059980@ogud.com> Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 13:17:26 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 02ec665d00de228c50c93ed6b5e4fc1a > Note: This message is to start discussion for the benefit of the chair and > AD(s) on this topic. > > After some discussions with various security and DNS people, > I'm going to recommend DNSEXT take a different approach in > adding ECC to DNSSEC than was proposed in draft-ietf-dnsext-ecc-key-10 > > Background: > The old ECC approach in the crypto community followed the philosophy > "Let 10,000 flowers bloom" by allowing multiple different curves to > be standardized. > The ecc-key draft reflects this approach. > > The new philosophy is "pick one curve at each strength level", there are numb > er > of reasons why the philosophy has changed including Interoperabilty and > community feeling that ECC is better understood and rational choices can be > made. > > Proposed Path Forward: > DNSEXT should > a. Pick 2 curves and allocate algorithm codes for them in the > near future[1] > > b. Decide if we want to use ECDSA signature standard or look for > something faster as our signature method. > > c. Decide if each curve+digest selected gets its own DNSKEY > algorithm codes > (one for each of NSEC + NSEC3) You don't need to distingish between NSEC and NSEC3 so long as the assignment of the code point specifies that it covers both NSEC and NSEC3. > or all ECC curves share algorithm codes. > > d. Alternatively: Decide it does not want to do ECC and state why. > > > Comments? > > Olafur > > [1] the suggested curves are p265 and p384 > > > -- > to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with > the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. > archive: -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From ReggieliptonHenson@ericjohnson.com Thu Jan 03 23:03:26 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAdmI-00006C-Tg; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 23:03:26 -0500 Received: from [200.86.216.78] (helo=miceleron.claudioconny) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAdmI-0004NJ-CO; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 23:03:26 -0500 Received: from journey by ericjohnson.com with SMTP id 2UKGOmM0Qm for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2008 01:03:21 +0400 From: "Sammie Preston" To: Cc: , Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAe19-0008MI-Ak; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 23:18:47 -0500 Received: from xdsle154.osnanet.de ([212.95.104.154] helo=sancarbarlaz) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAe18-0004d1-Rs; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 23:18:47 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by host29928776.msss.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id wZBxFvCt02.708296.zLK.YJP.9726589784181 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2008 05:18:20 -0100 Message-ID: <3995101c84e88$e0a61a40$0200a8c0@SANCARBARLAZ> From: "Vince Carrillo" To: Cc: , =20

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I would suggest omitting it as > the valid point is made in the second sentence. OK. > # 2.4. Names Next to and Below a DNAME Record OK. > #3.2. CNAME synthesis > ... > # It does not make sense for the authoritative server to follow the > # chain of DNAMEs, CNAMEs and wildcards outside of the zone of the > # query, as some resolver implementations will remove out-of-zone > # information from the answer. > > This wording bothers me. ... > If the intent is to edit those comments, this is a much bigger deal than > advertised (=update to DNAME). I think an update to 1034 is not warranted. I suggest to remove the text in the next version. > #3.3. Acceptance and Intermediate Storage > # > # DNS Caches MUST NOT allow data to be cached below the owner of a > # DNAME RR, except CNAME records and their signatures. CNAME records > > All sorts of alarm bells began to ring on this one - "and their > signatures" set them off. The CNAMEs aren't signed in this case. > > What about a situation in which data at a name is cached for a week and > three days later the zone administrator puts in a DNAME above the name > cached. If the cache learns of the DNAME, does the cache have to purge > the previously cached data? How about this text? DNS Caches MUST be capable of handling inconsistency when data arrives below the owner of a DNAME, or a DNAME arrives above owner names of other data. Due to delays and caching in the DNS, these sort of situations can appear after a zone is changed and TTLs have yet not expired. So this says that when the cache learns of the DNAME in your example, it should continue to work (not crash). Since TTLs mean that either answer (DNAME or original data) are valid DNS answers, it can sometimes pretend to never had gotten the DNAME, or pretend the original data fell out of the cache, or attempt to restore sanity to its cache some other way. After some time, expiry of TTLs will restore sanity. > Another thing bothers me that is not related to the text here and I > couldn't find where it is mentioned. Synthesizing the CNAME with a TTL > of 0 is a mistake because that means unaware caches (those that can't > handle DNAME) will not hold onto the CNAME. Perhaps the TTL should be > the same as the DNAME but DNAME aware caches ought to treat the CNAME as > 0 - if they even ever see it. (They'll see it from older responders > that don't understand the UD bit.) I agree with Pauls response. Lets try to minimize unnecessary repeated queries. > #5.2. Dynamic Update and DNAME > # > # Zones containing a DNAME RR MUST NOT accept a dynamic update message > # that would add a record or delegation with a name existing under a > # DNAME. > # > # A server MUST return an error message with RCODE=REFUSED [RFC2136] in > # response to a dynamic update message that would add a resource record > # under a DNAME in the zone. > > This section should state that it is permissible to delete a DNAME RR > set from a name or modify one. What about adding? That's more complex > because there may be existing names below the proposed owner of the > DNAME. Would it be like adding an NS RR? Masking away the obscured > names? Or is the addition a flat-out error? I think that needs to be > discussed (meaning, I don't have a definite opinion myself). I'll go with Marks suggestion (works like NS updates), if that appears to be consensus. > #5.3.2.3. Response With Synthesized CNAME > ... I'd recommend just removing > the comment altogether as it isn't really needed here and the caveats > that could be included would dwarf the rest of the paragraph. Case in > point, this comment is more than twice as long as what I'm commenting on. OK :-) Best regards, Wouter -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHfkFvkDLqNwOhpPgRArpXAJ9u8AdQiEbtK2Ju4mmYnXfRFssUbACgru4k T9vHJsShgnkowQrsgiqH9xM= =TJw8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Jan 04 09:47:03 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAnp9-0006CM-GA; Fri, 04 Jan 2008 09:47:03 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAnp8-0004Ze-Vp; Fri, 04 Jan 2008 09:47:03 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JAniS-000IcN-69 for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 04 Jan 2008 14:40:08 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JAniH-000Iaq-NT for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Jan 2008 14:40:06 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.104] (hlid.ogud.com [66.92.146.160]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m04Edf3L063749; Fri, 4 Jan 2008 09:39:42 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <477E4170.7040008@nlnetlabs.nl> References: <476BBAA4.8010703@nist.gov> <200712211433.lBLEXkIZ034297@ogud.com> <477E4170.7040008@nlnetlabs.nl> Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 09:39:37 -0500 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, Wouter Wijngaards From: Edward Lewis Subject: Re: {Blocked Content} I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2672bis-dname-07.txt Cc: Edward Lewis Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 66.92.146.160 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 At 15:23 +0100 1/4/08, Wouter Wijngaards wrote: >Edward Lewis wrote: >> What about a situation in which data at a name is cached for a week and >> three days later the zone administrator puts in a DNAME above the name >> cached. If the cache learns of the DNAME, does the cache have to purge >> the previously cached data? > >How about this text? >DNS Caches MUST be capable of handling inconsistency when data arrives >below the owner of a DNAME, or a DNAME arrives above owner names of >other data. Due to delays and caching in the DNS, these sort of >situations can appear after a zone is changed and TTLs have yet not expired. > >So this says that when the cache learns of the DNAME in your example, it >should continue to work (not crash). Since TTLs mean that either answer >(DNAME or original data) are valid DNS answers, it can sometimes pretend >to never had gotten the DNAME, or pretend the original data fell out of >the cache, or attempt to restore sanity to its cache some other way. > >After some time, expiry of TTLs will restore sanity. I'm not overly fond of the text "MUST be capable of handling," it sounds like "hey - cope." I wouldn't put an RFC 2119 term there but mention that it is possible that a cached entry may be below a DNAME because changes may happen at the authoritative servers while the cache is independently holding on to old data. I would further state that this is an uncommon, transitional condition, hence there is no specification for how a cache will treat this, with the choices being to store both and use each as if the other didn't exist, drop the previously held entry causing the conflict, or always drop the lower name. From a specification and protocol development viewpoint it is impossible to decide which of the strategies is the best, perhaps in operations this will be apparent. However, keep in mind that this will not be a common event in the protocol. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 NeuStar Think glocally. Act confused. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Jan 04 09:58:07 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAnzr-0004Ar-Eo; Fri, 04 Jan 2008 09:58:07 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAnzq-0004lI-NM; Fri, 04 Jan 2008 09:58:07 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JAnuK-000K4V-ON for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 04 Jan 2008 14:52:24 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [213.154.224.1] (helo=open.nlnetlabs.nl) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JAntn-000Jzh-Tn for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Jan 2008 14:52:08 +0000 Received: from gary.nlnetlabs.nl (gary.nlnetlabs.nl [IPv6:2001:7b8:206:1:216:76ff:feb8:1853]) by open.nlnetlabs.nl (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m04EpJi5075504; Fri, 4 Jan 2008 15:51:19 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from wouter@nlnetlabs.nl) Message-ID: <477E47E7.9020205@nlnetlabs.nl> Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 15:51:19 +0100 From: Wouter Wijngaards User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071115) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael StJohns CC: Edward Lewis , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D3lafur_Gu=F0m?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?undsson_/DNSEXT_chair?= , Scott Rose , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: {Blocked Content} I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2672bis-dname-07.txt References: <476BBAA4.8010703@nist.gov> <200712211433.lBLEXkIZ034297@ogud.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (open.nlnetlabs.nl [IPv6:2001:7b8:206:1::53]); Fri, 04 Jan 2008 15:51:20 +0100 (CET) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 52f7a77164458f8c7b36b66787c853da -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Michael StJohns wrote: >> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2672bis-dname-07.txt >> >> # 2.3. DNAME Apex not Redirected itself >> ... >> # This means that a DNAME RR is not allowed at the same domain name as >> # NS records unless there is also a SOA record present. DNAME RRs are >> # not allowed at the parent side of a delegation point but are allowed >> # at a zone apex. >> >> The first sentence makes no sense to me. I would suggest omitting it as the valid point is made in the second sentence. (That is - if you are a cache and happen to have all of a domain name's information stored you will always have an SOA where there is an NS. From that perspective a restriction saying "it can't have NS unless there's an SOA" has got to be defined in the context of a zone file.) > > Agreed. AND... this really needs to be defined in terms of server and resolver behavior rather than what can and can't be in the zone file. People will screw up and bad things will happen. How - exactly - does this record work in the presence of "bad data"? E.g. what happens at a cache if it gets both a DNAME and NS records for a specific name? Does it keep the DNAME records and discard the NS records? Vice versa? Crash in disgust? > > In 2.4 - "refuse to load" should probably be "refuse to serve" data below a DNAME. > > What does a recursive resolver do if it gets conflicting data (e.g. data below a DNAME followed later by a DNAME and vice versa?) > > There are other places in the text which have this problem as well. > Hi Michael, I agree, such a statement should have been made in the context of a zone file. Thanks for your comments. However I disagree about having server and resolver behaviour terms and 'refuse to serve', see below about bad data for a solution I propose. Having DNAME and NS records for one domain name is perfectly reasonable. The NS records define the server authoritative for that one domain name, and the DNAME redirects names below that one domain name. An example of bad data is when data (say an AAAA record at www.example.com) exists below a DNAME record (at example.com). How will things work with bad data. A server must refuse to load a zone with bad data. Due to delays conflicts may appear for resolvers. A resolver must select one side of the conflict. Due to data falling out of the cache, a resolver may change sides in the conflict. Until TTLs expire (due to the zone file being correct, since it managed to load without refusal), then sanity prevails again. Since a resolver can change sides in the conflict situation anyway, it can just as well be allowed to change sides per-query. 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------=_NextPart_000_8FAC_01C84F1A.7A3C8630-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Jan 04 18:07:03 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAvd1-0000qz-G9; Fri, 04 Jan 2008 18:07:03 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAvcz-0007pQ-3p; Fri, 04 Jan 2008 18:07:03 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JAvV4-000EpN-0z for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 04 Jan 2008 22:58:50 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE, RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JAvV1-000Eox-5q for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Jan 2008 22:58:48 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.104] (hlid.ogud.com [66.92.146.160]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m04MwRIC070268; Fri, 4 Jan 2008 17:58:29 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <87fxxdgvy6.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> References: <477B712E.8060602@isc.org> <87wsqs9x6n.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> <20080102172146.GA13020@dns.net> <87fxxdgvy6.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 17:58:21 -0500 To: Florian Weimer From: Edward Lewis Subject: Re: In the spirit of Festivus Cc: Andras Salamon , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1012634987==_ma============" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 66.92.146.160 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: b22590c27682ace61775ee7b453b40d3 --============_-1012634987==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 21:46 +0100 1/4/08, Florian Weimer wrote: >It misses RFC 3484 (my current litmus test). This has come up before. From my reading RFC 3484 has little to do with the DNS protocol. The web page says that the page lists RFCs that are "directly relevant" to the DNS. RFC 3484 mentions "DNS" 5 times, and the content in it is not "directly relevant." 1) "For example, when DNS" 2) "As one example, suppose a DNS" 3) "In the case of destination address selection, the DNS may return a set of addresses for a given name, and an application needs to decide which one to use..." 4) when applied to the set of addresses returned by the DNS 5) Consider a site ... All hosts in both sites register two addresses in the DNS. #'s 1,2,5 the DNS is seen playing a supporting role in an example. # 3 talks about an application dealing with the normal return of the DNS. # 4 talks about applying a rule to the same. None of this has a bearing on the DNS protocol. Later there is a rule that has been raised before has having a conflict with DNS operations. # Rule 9: Use longest matching prefix. ... # Rule 10: Otherwise, leave the order unchanged. The issue is the server selection algorithm by an interating process. There are two things to consider, first is that the server selection process is not governed by the DNS protocol specifications, nevertheless there are commonly followed algorithms in the field. And, there is also this catch in the same RFC: # Rules 9 and 10 may be superseded if the implementation has other # means of sorting destination addresses. Which certainly applies in the case of DNS servers. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 NeuStar Think glocally. Act confused. --============_-1012634987==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: In the spirit of Festivus
At 21:46 +0100 1/4/08, Florian Weimer wrote:

>It misses RFC 3484 (my current litmus test).

This has come up before.  From my reading RFC 3484 has little to do with the DNS protocol.  The web page says that the page lists RFCs that are "directly relevant" to the DNS.  RFC 3484 mentions "DNS" 5 times, and the content in it is not "directly relevant."

1) "For example, when DNS"
2) "As one example, suppose a DNS"
3) "In the case of destination address selection, the
   DNS may return a set of addresses for a given name, and an
   application needs to decide which one to use..."
4) when applied to the set of addresses returned by the DNS
5) Consider a site ...  All hosts in both sites register two addresses
   in the DNS.

#'s 1,2,5 the DNS is seen playing a supporting role in an example.  # 3 talks about an application dealing with the normal return of the DNS.  # 4 talks about applying a rule to the same.  None of this has a bearing on the DNS protocol.

Later there is a rule that has been raised before has having a conflict with DNS operations.

#   Rule 9:  Use longest matching prefix.
...
#   Rule 10:  Otherwise, leave the order unchanged.
 
The issue is the server selection algorithm by an interating process.  There are two things to consider, first is that the server selection process is not governed by the DNS protocol specifications, nevertheless there are commonly followed algorithms in the field.  And, there is also this catch in the same RFC:

#  Rules 9 and 10 may be superseded if the implementation has other
#  means of sorting destination addresses.

Which certainly applies in the case of DNS servers.
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Edward Lewis                                                +1-571-434-5468
NeuStar

Think glocally.  Act confused.
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I would further state that this is an uncommon, transitional | condition, hence there is no specification for how a cache will treat | this, with the choices being to store both and use each as if the other | didn't exist, drop the previously held entry causing the conflict, or | always drop the lower name. From a specification and protocol | development viewpoint it is impossible to decide which of the strategies | is the best, perhaps in operations this will be apparent. However, keep | in mind that this will not be a common event in the protocol. | How is this for text (for section 3.3), no capital terms ? 3.3. Acceptance and Intermediate Storage ~ DNS caches can encounter data at names below the owner name of a ~ DNAME RR, due to a change at the authoritative server where data from ~ before and after the change resides in the cache. This conflict ~ situation is a transitional phase, that ends when the old data times ~ out. The cache can opt to store both old and new data and treat each ~ as if the other did not exist, or drop the old data, or drop the ~ longer domain name. In any approach, consistency returns after the ~ older data TTL times out. ~ DNS Caches MUST perform CNAME synthesis on behalf of DNAME-ignorant ~ clients. A DNS Cache that understands DNAMEs can send out queries on ~ behalf of clients with the UD bit set. After receiving the answers ~ the DNS Cache sends replies to DNAME ignorant clients that include ~ DNAMEs and synthesized CNAMEs. You also asked about TTL nonzero synthesis. This is already in the draft, section 3.2 cname synthesis (TTL equal to that of the DNAME). For dynamic update I added the below paragraph at the start of 5.2 and kept the existing text. ~ Dynamic update for DNAME records works similar to dynamic update for ~ delegating NS records. For example, adding a DNAME obscures names in ~ the zone. DNAME records can be added, changed and removed. 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Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 66.92.146.160 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: d8ae4fd88fcaf47c1a71c804d04f413d Dear colleagues, The main role of DNSEXT right now is protocol maintenance. DNS is an "old" protocol with many RFC's published. Many people are unsure which RFC's are relevant, how to resolve "conflicts" between RFC's or even interpret the RFC's. A number of times members of this working group have talked about documenting what RFC's are good and update the ones that are deficient, but that process has never started. Other working groups that rely on DNS as part of their infrastructure have attempted to document what DNS protocol elements their implementations should include, this is outside their core expertise. In light of this RAI area directors explicitly asked me (as the WG chair) start an effort addressing this issue by creating a "DNS profile document". Last year I searched for an editor that would be willing, able and non-controversial. I'm happy to announce that George Michaelson has volunteered. For the last few months George has been working with me on creating a process and document structure that is in our opinion appropriate for this effort. He will soon post version 00 of this document that contains enough details for the Working Group to get an idea what the final document will look like and what will be in it. Document name is: draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile-00.txt Proposed rules for this process: 1. George is an editor reflecting the will of the working group. 2. Any issues that need consensus call will be resolved by the chair (or someone appointed in that role) by an explicit statement. 3. The document is about DNS protocol, not any implementation in particular. 4. Working group members are expected to provide text. 5. The document will avoid updating any RFC, it may reinterpret certain sections of old RFC's to follow RFC normative language. 6. Any RFC that is shown by this process to be defective, the working group should generate an -bis document for it. 7. Any RFC or part of that is identified as obsolete should be explicitly obsoleted by a new RFC. 8. Editor will operate an issues tracker. 9. Operational issues are outside the scope of the document. Look at the document from process and structure point of view rather than content and judge if this is an appropriate approach. Time-line: By Jan 23 I want to have a sense if the structure is appropriate. If the answer is positive version 01 is expected to be published around February 13'th. This version should have most sections flushed out. Editor may make snapshots of the document available on a web site to allow others to supply text for certain sections. I'm not sure how long this whole effort would take but I hope the working group can finish this document by the end of the year. Questions: Does the working group think that this effort warrants a meeting in Philadelphia, that basically will be a walk through on the document to identify which sections have issues ? 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This draft is a work item of the DNS Extensions Working Group of the IETF. Title : The Modern DNS Implementation Guide Author(s) : G. Michaelson Filename : draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile-00.txt Pages : 24 Date : 2008-01-10 A structured catalogue of relevant DNS RFCs is presented with references to the specific normative sections which should be followed in a modern DNS implementation. This document is to be used as guide for DNS implementors, for testing and compliance of DNS- functioning software, and to help guide DNS standards advancement. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile-00.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile-00.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile-00.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-01-10225134.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile-00.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile-00.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-01-10225134.I-D\@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Jan 11 00:28:04 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JDCR2-0002gR-Bn; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 00:28:04 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JDCR0-0005iJ-Tl; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 00:28:04 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JDCJp-000MOa-6w for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:20:37 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [204.152.184.167] (helo=mx.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JDCJm-000MOF-QU for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:20:35 +0000 Received: from farside.isc.org (farside.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:3:bb::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "farside.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (verified OK)) by mx.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A56411406E for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:20:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Mark_Andrews@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost.isc.org [IPv6:::1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (verified OK)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 553AEE6056 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:20:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0B5KMCs026865 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:20:22 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200801110520.m0B5KMCs026865@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: I-D Action:draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile-00.txt In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:00:01 CDT." Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:20:22 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a {new normative language, maybe.. } The server MAY accept TCP connections. {? what is the correct wording and reference?} This was written prior to UPDATE. UPDATE works much better with TCP. 6. There MUST be no data below CNAME, and only DNSSEC records with CNAME. [RFC 4034] [RFC 4035] Normally "above" and "below" apply to namespace. When processing the additional section priority is as specified in [RFC 2874 (4)] o A o AAAA If any additional data matches the QUERY it should be first. Queries for glue at the parent result in referrals so to ensure the client gets the glue it needs to be sorted first. -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From SabrinaannexRitchie@atcq.com Fri Jan 11 03:16:09 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JDF3h-0002eO-Nl; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 03:16:09 -0500 Received: from [88.227.101.235] (helo=teb8db13023cdd) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JDF3g-0000fJ-Tf; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 03:16:09 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by host65616712.atcq.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id jBc6pond46.830244.BLD.syD.8710693608108 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:16:00 -0200 Message-ID: <19f3601c8542a$3444c1a0$2101a8c0@teb8db13023cdd> From: "Molly Drew" To: , =20

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------=_NextPart_000_2EF32_01C8542E.7D4609F0-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Jan 11 04:58:54 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JDGf8-0005G4-ER; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:58:54 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JDGf8-0001tB-3I; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:58:54 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JDGVK-000B8S-5u for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:48:46 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [212.9.189.167] (helo=mail.enyo.de) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JDGVH-000B89-H0 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:48:44 +0000 Received: from deneb.vpn.enyo.de ([212.9.189.177] helo=deneb.enyo.de) by mail.enyo.de with esmtp id 1JDGV9-00057a-23; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:48:35 +0100 Received: from fw by deneb.enyo.de with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JDGV5-0002ym-Sp; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:48:31 +0100 From: Florian Weimer To: Edward Lewis Cc: Andras Salamon , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: In the spirit of Festivus References: <477B712E.8060602@isc.org> <87wsqs9x6n.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> <20080102172146.GA13020@dns.net> <87fxxdgvy6.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:48:31 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Edward Lewis's message of "Fri\, 4 Jan 2008 17\:58\:21 -0500") Message-ID: <87myrc7kwg.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a * Edward Lewis: > 1) "For example, when DNS" > 2) "As one example, suppose a DNS" > 3) "In the case of destination address selection, the > DNS may return a set of addresses for a given name, and an > application needs to decide which one to use..." > 4) when applied to the set of addresses returned by the DNS > 5) Consider a site ... All hosts in both sites register two addresses > in the DNS. > > #'s 1,2,5 the DNS is seen playing a supporting role in an example. # > 3 talks about an application dealing with the normal return of the > DNS. The RFC may be worded as if this were an application issue, but to my knowledge, your item 3 is implemented in resolvers (if implemented at all). Therefore, Rule 9 in RFC 3484 changes DNS name resolution behavior which was previously documented in RFC 2219 and other places. I understand that it's sometimes desirable to disguise DNS protocol changes as application behavior recommendation to route RFCs around certain working groups. But the net effect is the same: if the change is bogus and is implemented widely, considerable suffering is the result. (In fact, this is what happened with Rule 9 in RFC 3484.) -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From dermot3@atomis.com Fri Jan 11 05:21:54 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JDH1O-0007tw-Ni for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:21:54 -0500 Received: from host107-96-static.53-88-b.business.telecomitalia.it ([88.53.96.107]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JDH1O-0003Ju-2W for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:21:54 -0500 Message-ID: <000a01c8543b$07b53922$3ac9f19c@dkjdueq> From: "jodie walter" To: Subject: Christmas FREE BONUS! Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:34:30 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C8543B.07B07B84" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 2.0 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C8543B.07B07B84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Online Casino Christmas FREE BONUS! Gamble online! Slots Black Jack Roulette Click=20 here to try ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C8543B.07B07B84 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C8543B.07B07B84-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Jan 11 06:13:14 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JDHp4-00013b-85; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 06:13:14 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JDHp3-00032n-Ur; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 06:13:14 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JDHh8-000FUC-9A for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:05:02 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [212.9.189.167] (helo=mail.enyo.de) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JDHh5-000FSd-OH for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:05:01 +0000 Received: from deneb.vpn.enyo.de ([212.9.189.177] helo=deneb.enyo.de) by mail.enyo.de with esmtp id 1JDHh0-0002Gm-SB; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:04:55 +0100 Received: from fw by deneb.enyo.de with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JDHgw-0004Nc-Pa; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:04:50 +0100 From: Florian Weimer To: Mark Andrews Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: I-D Action:draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile-00.txt References: <200801110520.m0B5KMCs026865@drugs.dv.isc.org> Importance: high Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:04:50 +0100 In-Reply-To: <200801110520.m0B5KMCs026865@drugs.dv.isc.org> (Mark Andrews's message of "Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:20:22 +1100") Message-ID: <874pdk62st.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f * Mark Andrews: > {new normative language, maybe.. } The server MAY accept TCP > connections. {? what is the correct wording and reference?} > > This was written prior to UPDATE. UPDATE works much better > with TCP. UPDATE is usually not performed across the Internet, so I'm not sure how relevant it is for interoperability on the grand scale of things. The current TCP behavior is specified by RFC 1123, section 6.1.3.2. (This also means that section 4.2.1 in the draft is slightly incorrect.) -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Jan 11 06:41:47 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JDIGh-0001op-D9; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 06:41:47 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JDIGf-0003S9-Ui; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 06:41:47 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JDIBI-000HfJ-4B for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:36:12 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [131.111.8.130] (helo=ppsw-0.csi.cam.ac.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JDIBB-000Her-Rx for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:36:10 +0000 X-Cam-SpamDetails: Not scanned X-Cam-AntiVirus: No virus found X-Cam-ScannerInfo: http://www.cam.ac.uk/cs/email/scanner/ Received: from draco.cus.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.8.18]:40402) by ppsw-0.csi.cam.ac.uk (ppsw.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.130]:25) with esmtp id 1JDIB1-0008Fx-1x (Exim 4.67) (return-path ); Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:35:55 +0000 Received: from cet1 by draco.cus.cam.ac.uk with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JDIB1-0001T8-G4; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:35:55 +0000 Subject: Re: I-D Action:draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile-00.txt To: fw@deneb.enyo.de (Florian Weimer) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:35:55 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Mark_Andrews@isc.org, namedroppers@ops.ietf.org In-Reply-To: <874pdk62st.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> from "Florian Weimer" at Jan 11, 8 12:04:50 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 998 Message-Id: From: Chris Thompson Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 fw@deneb.enyo.de (Florian Weimer) writes: > UPDATE is usually not performed across the Internet, Maybe you are using some particular notion of "across the Internet" here (as in "from topologically distant hosts"), but otherwise it seems a rather strange remark. All our zone changes (well, OK, *nearly* all if you insist on 100% accuracy) are made via UPDATE, and not from the host on which the master nameserver runs. And we aren't even using DHCP (in that context)... > so I'm not sure how > relevant it is for interoperability on the grand scale of things. -- Chris Thompson University of Cambridge Computing Service, Email: cet1@ucs.cam.ac.uk New Museums Site, Cambridge CB2 3QH, Phone: +44 1223 334715 United Kingdom. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Jan 11 07:37:41 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JDJ8n-0004m9-J4; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 07:37:41 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JDJ8m-00049Q-72; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 07:37:41 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JDIzC-000Mef-S5 for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:27:46 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [204.152.184.167] (helo=mx.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JDIzA-000MeM-C9 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:27:45 +0000 Received: from farside.isc.org (farside.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:3:bb::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "farside.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (verified OK)) by mx.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17AC211407E for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:27:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Mark_Andrews@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost.isc.org [IPv6:::1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (verified OK)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8309E6056 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:27:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0BCQJUU069810; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 23:26:19 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200801111226.m0BCQJUU069810@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Florian Weimer Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: I-D Action:draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile-00.txt In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:04:50 BST." <874pdk62st.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 23:26:19 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 > * Mark Andrews: > > > {new normative language, maybe.. } The server MAY accept TCP > > connections. {? what is the correct wording and reference?} > > > > This was written prior to UPDATE. UPDATE works much better > > with TCP. > > UPDATE is usually not performed across the Internet, so I'm not sure how > relevant it is for interoperability on the grand scale of things. UPDATE clients are written by different vendors to those that write nameservers. The clients and servers need to interoperate. It doesn't matter if its just across the LAN or across the world. UPDATE was actually written with the idea that roaming machines would update their address whenever they reconnected to the net. We hadn't worked out how to authenticate that update but that didn't stop us designing for that senario. > The current TCP behavior is specified by RFC 1123, section 6.1.3.2. > (This also means that section 4.2.1 in the draft is slightly incorrect.) Remember when RFC 1123 there were lots of nameservers that didn't use non-blocking connects, etc. nameserver listened on 0.0.0.0:53. We have much improved IP stacks since RFC 1123 was written. We have also learned to use the features of those stacks. 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------=_NextPart_000_C6F6_01C853E9.4D749330-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Jan 11 14:11:49 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JDPID-00024Y-QM; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:11:49 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JDPIA-0002nU-Bu; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:11:49 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JDP63-00038o-Lh for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:59:15 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, USER_IN_WHITELIST_TO autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [199.212.90.4] (helo=monster.hopcount.ca) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JDP5x-000389-Ch for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:59:13 +0000 Received: from [199.212.90.22] (helo=yxu1a22.hopcount.ca) by monster.hopcount.ca with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JDP5t-0000rS-Vc; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:59:07 +0000 Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Message-Id: <33592D99-2FC2-4151-82F1-B2C1608CDAE8@ca.afilias.info> From: Joe Abley To: George Michaelson In-Reply-To: <200801102220.m0AMKgiV054611@ogud.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) Subject: initial thoughts on draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile-00 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:59:05 -0500 References: <200801102220.m0AMKgiV054611@ogud.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.915) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 089da5e32269fece1072c9ff54523f20 Some initial comments follow. I have not done much thinking, but perhaps some of my crude scrawl will trigger comments from those brains are performing more adequately on this particular Friday. Many of these are knee-jerk editorial objections, which you should feel free to scoff at. I appreciate that many of these sections contain notes rather than polished text in this revision. > Abstract > > A structured catalogue of relevant DNS RFCs is presented with > references to the specific normative sections which should be > followed in a modern DNS implementation. This document is to be > used > as guide for DNS implementors, for testing and compliance of DNS- > functioning software, and to help guide DNS standards advancement. editorial: s/-functioning// editorial: s/standards advancement/standards' advancement/ > 1. Introduction > > The DNS is almost 25 years old. In that time a significant amount > of editorial: Since this document presumably aims to remain relevant for a long time, the comment on the age of the document ought to be relative to something (e.g. to the time of writing). > change has occurred in the collection of RFCs which document how > DNS > systems should be implemented and operated. > o Developers of DNS systems need a single reference which can be > used consistently to review interoperability between > implementations and to guide implementation of DNS systems. > o Operators of DNS systems need a reference which can be used to > understand existing DNS systems conformance and to guide > acquisition and management of new DNS systems. > > Accordingly, the DNSEXT working group has been asked by the RAI ADs > and others to document what the basic requirements for 'modern' DNS > implementations are. editorial: Working groups come and go; organisational structures change. DNSEXT, RAI and possibly even ADs ought to be expanded upon first use. If we're being consistent, DNS ought to be expanded somewhere early in this document. > By reviewing the normative sections of the 'head' documents (ie the editorial: s/ie/i.e./ > documents which are current, have not been superseded by a -bis > or a > different document, editorial: s/by a -bis or a different/another/ > explicitly deprecated or fallen into disrepair) > the DNSEXT working group identified the set of references into > those > documents which specify all of the 'directives' which define how > the > 'modern' DNS system should work. > > In the process of review, areas of attention were identified. > These > represent normative directing text(s) in the RFCs, or the entire > RFCs > themselves, which required change, to reflect the current state of > the DNS. > > During this documents development, areas of standardization which editorial: s/standardization/standardisation/ (assuming I'm right from other text that the document editor aims to use English, and not US spelling) > required attention were noted, and were addressed in one of the > following four ways. > o Firstly, if the revisions were simple enough, a -bis process was > used to define the smallest set of changes to the RFC, and a new > version rolled, with the old one deprecated. The use of "bis" and "ter" to name successors to existing documents is common in many technical fields, following from the Latin bis ("twice") and ter ("three times"). It's not immediately clear that the phrase "-bis process" has a commonly-understood meaning. If the aim of this text is to provide clarity, then I think a little more explanation is in order. If what is meant is "the document text was lightly edited in order to achieve the desired changes, and the resulting document was published as a complete replacement for the original" then I think spelling it out would be clearer. > 2. General Considerations > > {new normative language} This document catalogs the compliance > issues > for an implementation of any component of the DNS. Implementors > MUST > adhere to the collected state of these directives to be considered > fully compliant to DNS RFCs and STDs. s/fully compliant to/fully compliant with/ Given that this document catalogues many RFSs which are not really pertinent to anything any more, I wonder what "fully-compliant to DNS RFCs and STDs" means. Perhaps "... to be considered fully standards- compliant." is better? > {not normative} Because important DNS RFCs pre-date RFC 2119 this > document explicitly shows where their text is to be re- > interpreted in > line with RFC2119 normative language > > The document is organized into five major sections, addressing > Common > Requirements, Authoritative Servers, Stub Resolvers, Recursive > Resolvers and Middle-boxes. DNS Implementors should read all > sections carefully since subsequent sections refer back to prior > sections and catalog variances as well as new requirements. > > Application specific considerations are not normatively addressed > by > this document. Where mentioned, the text should be considered > guidance only. s/considered guidance/interpreted as guidance/ > 3. Common Requirements > > {new normative language. the -bis document needs its reference > confirmed.} EDNS0 MUST be implemented by all DNS systems. Its > use is > an operational decision. This is is line with [RFC 1996] and its > -bis document. There's a replacement for 1996? > {new normative language} Unknown RRtypes MUST be preserved. This > is > in line with [RFC 3597] I think this needs expansion. Preserved in what way? > {new normative language} The DNS Database consistency MUST be > maintained. Data MUST NOT leak between zones. [RFC 1997] I think this also needs expansion. Consistency in what sense? > {non normative} The following documents define registries of DNS RR > types. All new record types can be treated as unknown RRs as > above. > {list of RR-types refs. Just the IANA registry, rather than all > RFCs > has been suggested by Olafur} > > {new normative language} Processing if dns names in US-ASCII range > MUST be case insensitive. [RFC 1035 (2.3.3)] also see [RFC 1034 > (3.1)] editorial: s/if/of/ editorial: s/dns/DNS/ editorial: s/case insensitive/case-insensitive/ > 4. Authoritative Servers > > {Much of this text comes from [NLNet-1]. These requirements are in > order of importance: } > > 4.1. Zones > > 4.1.1. Zone Contents > > {non normative} The zone file format as specified in [RFC 1035 > (5.1)] > is optional. It is used as a common presentation format only. > > {new normative language: needs RFC reference} A served zone SHOULD > not contain errors, or produce unpredictable results when RRs that > are obsolete, or not implemented are encountered. > > Zones MUST follow the rules as defined in [RFC 1035 (5.2)] and > subsequent revisions by the following RFCs: > [RFC 1101] > [RFC 1122] > [RFC 1183] > [RFC 1706] > [RFC 1876] > [RFC 1982] > [RFC 1995] > [RFC 1996] > [RFC 2136] > [RFC 2137] > [RFC 2181] > [RFC 2308] > [RFC 2535] {this needs to be reviewed, and probably updated to a > new RFC} > [RFC 2782] > [RFC 2845] > [RFC 3425] > [RFC 3658] > [RFC 4034] > [RFC 4035] > > from [RFC 1035 (section 5.2)] and [RFC 2181 (section 5.2)] the > following text has been extracted, and re-written in line with RFC > 2119 normative language. This paragraph (above) would be clearer if re-cast in the form "The following text has been extracted from [RFC 1035 (section 5.2)] and [RFC 2181 (section 5.2)] and re-written using normative language specified in [RFC 2119]." > [RFC 1035 (Section 5.2)] Rules governing zone content > > {new normative text} > 1. All RRs in the file MUST have the same class. [RFC 1035 > (Section > 5.2 rule 1)] If support of a "zone file" is optional, I think s/file/zone/ above? > 4.1.2. Zone synchronization editorial: s/synchronization/synchronisation/ (see earler re. spelling). "Replication" might be a better word. This section presumably should say something about whether the use of zone transfers is mandatory. It might also express an opinion about whether using REFRESH, RETRY, EXPIRE or MINIMUM timers in a zone's SOA RDATA is mandatory, when using AXFR/IXFR as the replication mechanism or when using some other mechanism. Is it required for servers which support AXFR/IXFR also to support NOTIFY? > 4.1.2.1. Timeout management > > {referencing RFC details needed} Timeouts on the SOAs for secondary > zones according to [RFC...]. "secondary zone" is a clumsy phrase. I realise this is just a placeholder, however. :-) > 4.2.2. TCP > > {new normative language, maybe.. } The server MAY accept TCP > connections. {? what is the correct wording and reference?} I think that MAY should be a MUST. If it's really to be a MAY, then there ought to be some restrictions placed on the data that can be served, and the use of the TC bit in responses. > Note that there may be one or more DNS messages in the stream. > Each > message is prepended with a 2 byte size servers follow [RFC 1035 > (4.2.2)] The text in RFC 1035 is much clearer: "[Each] message is prefixed with a two byte length field which gives the message length, excluding the two byte length field." > 4.2.3. TCP Connection Management > > from [RFC 1035 (section 4.2.2)] the following text has been > extracted, and re-written in line with RFC2119 normative language. > > [RFC 1035 (4.2.2.)] TCP Usage > > {new normative text} > > o the server SHOULD not block other activities waiting for TCP > data > o The server SHOULD assume that the client will initiate > connection > closing and SHOULD delay closing its end of the connection until > all outstanding client requests have been satisfied. > o { this is 25 year old advice. is this still relevant or what > should it be? } For closing dormant connections the timeout > should > be in the order of 2 minutes. Two minutes sounds like a very long time to me. The goal of the timeout text is presumably to avoid having to incur the TCP setup handshake overhead unnecessarily. I can't think of an obvious heuristic which would lead me to a definitive, correct timeout based on this vague goal, but it does seem to me that on a busy server the implications of keeping all TCP sessions open on the server for two minutes has poor scaling properties. > 4.3. DNS Message processing > > DNS messages should be processed in line with the precepts of [RFC > 1034 (Section 4.3.1)] > > { new normative language. there is no explicit reference in > existing > RFCs to the following} Non parsable messages SHOULD be replied to > with a FORMERR. > > Each UDP packet only carries one DNS Message. Any data behind the > DNS message SHOULD be considered garbage and SHOULD be ignored. > {better text requested} "When UDP transport is used, each UDP datagram MUST contain exactly one DNS Message. UDP datagrams SHOULD be constructed such that they contain no data following the DNS Message. If present, any additional data present following the DNS Message MUST be ignored." > o Incoming DNS messages with the QR bit set to 1 (response) are > discarded. [RFC 1035 (sect 7.3)] Clearly this is the desired behaviour for a DNS server. It's not desired behaviour for a DNS client, however. Since the document appears to be talking generally about "DNS Systems", I think some further categorisation would be beneficial, here. Perhaps it just needs to be made more clear that this section concerns itself with the processing of DNS messages which are received, rather than those which are being processed in any other way (e.g. before sending). > o RD is copied into the response [RFC 1035 (4.1.1)] the RA bit is > set to 0 and the QUERYID is copied into the response message as > follows: > * OPCODE 0 (QUERY) MUST be supported [RFC 1035] > * OPCODE 1 (IQUERY) MUST result in RCODE=4 NOTIMPL [RFC 3425] > {has this actually been deprecated?} > * OPCODE 2 (STATUS) MUST result in RCODE=4 NOTIMPL [RFC 1035] > {new normative language, not explicitly brought out} > * OPCODE 3 (RESERVED) MUST result in RCODE=4 NOTIMPL > {requires an > RFC reference} > * {new normative language} The following are optional but > recommended techologies, which SHOULD be handled gracefully, > rather than through use of NOTIMPL > + OPCODE 4 (NOTIFY) SHOULD+ be supported [RFC 1995] > + OPCODE 5 (UPDATE) SHOULD+ be supported [RFC 2136 (sect 3)] > o {no RFC/normatives found, need guidance} > * AA bit in query packet SHOULD be ignored. > * TC bit set in a query packet SHOULD+ be answered with > FORMERR. > * RCODES SHOULD ignored. > * QDCOUNT!=1 SHOULD result in RCODE=1 FORMERR I'm interested in the basis on which decisions as to what is appropriate in the four lines above might be arrived at. Should we review a survey of existing implementations, or check representative resolvers and authoritative-only servers to see whether clients are, in fact, sending queries formed with these errors, or something else? > o Presence of OPT RR indicates support of EDNS [RFC 2671]. If the > VERSION > 0 then the server will respond with an OPT with > RCODE=BADVERSION and VERSION=0 (The server supports EDNS0) In > further processing ENDS0 support is taken into account. Presence of the OPT RR in the ADDITIONAL section, right? Not specifying the section seems like the wrong thing. A reference to RFC 2671 (or -bis) seems to be missing. > 4.4. Further Query processing > > 4.4.1. Actions based on QTYPE of incoming Query > > Further processing of the packet is based on the algorithm from > [RFC > 1034] as modified by [RFC 2672 (4)]. > > DNSSEC Considerations follow [RFC 4035] editorial: missing ".". > 4.5. Additional Data processing > > Additional data is added as long as there is space in the packet. > {need reference} "space" is vague. "... data MAY be added" seems more helpful. > When processing the additional section priority is as specified in > [RFC 2874 (4)] > o A > o AAAA > > For truncation see section [Truncation handling] > > 4.6. Label compression in RDATA > > [RFC 1035 (section 3.3. and 4.4.1)] ("Pointers can only be used for > occurrences of a domain name where the format is not class > specific.") > > Do label compression for labels in rdata for which this is > specifically mentioned in the RFC defining the RR. > o NS, SOA, CNAME, and PTR [RFC 1035 (3.3)] > o Others defined in [RFC 1035 (3.3)]are not compressed. > o MB, MG, MR, MINFO, MX also have compressed dnames. These RRs > and > their compression are described in [RFC 1035]. > o AFSDB, RP, RT [RFC 1183, (Section 1,2 & 3.3.3)] > o You MUST follow the rules in [RFC 3597]. > > > > > > > Michaelson Expires July 13, 2008 > [Page 9] > Internet-Draft The Modern DNS Implementation Guide January > 2008 > > > 4.7. Truncation handling > > Truncation handling is as specified in [RFC 2181 (9)] > > {TBD normative text for this section. RFC references required.} If > inclusion of a RR set that is REQUIRED in either the answer or > authority section leads to message truncation. The section is left > empty and the truncation (TC) bit is set. If the DO bit is set > RRSIG > RRs are required in the answer and authority section. > > If inclusion of an RRset in the Additional section is not possible > RRs are omitted one by one. This may lead to incomplete RRsets. > Omission of RRs from the Additional section because of message size > constraints will NOT lead to setting of the TC bit. [RFC 2181 (9)] > > {RFC references required.} Implementations need to allow for > incomplete RRsets in the additional section. > > 4.8. NSEC processing > > {section reference required.} The NSEC record is required to be in > the authority section if a QNAME or a QTYPE cannot be matched [RFC > 4035 (section ?)]. > > {this text needs to be moved out of authoritative servers. Not > clear > which section its in yet.} Note that on a QNAME match the NS > records > are not copied into the AUTH section (This is a requirement from > step > 4 'matching down the cache' from [RFC 1034 (Section 4.3.2)]. > This is > a requirement only for caching servers. > > 9. Acknowledgments > > Much of the initial ideas, and structure of the text reflect ideas > taken from a design document developed by NLNet Labs, in the > process > of developing NSD. This was written by Dr. Wouter C.A. Wijngaards > and Jaap Akkerhuis. [NLNet-1]. editorial: s/Dr./Dr/ (unless the convention is to do otherwise in Dutch? In English the punctuation only appears if the abbreviation is terminated by a letter other than the one which terminates the expanded word.) I didn't see a reference to RFC 5001 anywhere. 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Relax and have fun with poker, blackjack, roulette, progressive video slots at your own leisure from your couch. http://placebetscasino.com/ From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sat Jan 12 22:22:54 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JDtR0-0000SH-T0; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:22:54 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JDtQy-0002W3-MW; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:22:54 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JDtIU-00048G-GC for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 03:14:06 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [204.152.184.138] (helo=mail2.ntp.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JDtIS-00047v-5N for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 03:14:05 +0000 Received: from 65-86-158-146.client.dsl.net (65-86-158-146.client.dsl.net [65.86.158.146]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail2.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B18A398AE; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 03:14:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mayer@gis.net) Received: from cust-63-209-227-203.bos-dynamic.gis.net ([63.209.227.203] helo=[10.10.10.100]) by 65-86-158-146.client.dsl.net with esmtpsa (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1JDtFb-0002rL-Lo; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:11:08 -0500 Message-ID: <47898147.8090304@gis.net> Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:11:03 -0500 From: Danny Mayer Reply-To: mayer@gis.net User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Florian Weimer Cc: Edward Lewis , Andras Salamon , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: In the spirit of Festivus References: <477B712E.8060602@isc.org> <87wsqs9x6n.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> <20080102172146.GA13020@dns.net> <87fxxdgvy6.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> <87myrc7kwg.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> In-Reply-To: <87myrc7kwg.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-kostecke.net-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-kostecke.net-MailScanner-From: mayer@gis.net Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Florian Weimer wrote: > * Edward Lewis: > >> 1) "For example, when DNS" >> 2) "As one example, suppose a DNS" >> 3) "In the case of destination address selection, the >> DNS may return a set of addresses for a given name, and an >> application needs to decide which one to use..." >> 4) when applied to the set of addresses returned by the DNS >> 5) Consider a site ... All hosts in both sites register two addresses >> in the DNS. >> >> #'s 1,2,5 the DNS is seen playing a supporting role in an example. # >> 3 talks about an application dealing with the normal return of the >> DNS. > > The RFC may be worded as if this were an application issue, but to my > knowledge, your item 3 is implemented in resolvers (if implemented at > all). Therefore, Rule 9 in RFC 3484 changes DNS name resolution > behavior which was previously documented in RFC 2219 and other places. > > I understand that it's sometimes desirable to disguise DNS protocol > changes as application behavior recommendation to route RFCs around > certain working groups. But the net effect is the same: if the change > is bogus and is implemented widely, considerable suffering is the > result. (In fact, this is what happened with Rule 9 in RFC 3484.) One of the interesting recent requests we've had in ntp is to pick randomly from the list of addresses returned so that any ntp daemon is likely to use a different address for the ntp server that it's going to query. The is useful since although the pool DNS server are regularly updating the list, if you don't randomize what you use then a lot of clients are likely to use it. For the pool option we also want to use a randomized list. We don't expect DNS or the resolvers to give a randomized list, we expect to need to do this ourselves. This sort of thing is exactly what 3) talks about. 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Medical professionals have endorsed the HerbalMaxx system to help men just like you achieve increased SIZE, LENGTH and WIDTH of their Manhood http://iuczhfmg.googlepages.com From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 14 04:13:55 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JELOF-0006OG-DB; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 04:13:55 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JELOF-00078e-2m; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 04:13:55 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JELG4-000F8H-TJ for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 09:05:28 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, USER_IN_WHITELIST_TO autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [192.134.4.11] (helo=mx2.nic.fr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JELG2-000F7w-Fs for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 09:05:27 +0000 Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 58BF81C0125; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 10:05:25 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 535CD1C0119; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 10:05:25 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4590158ED03; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 10:05:25 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 10:05:25 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Joe Abley Cc: George Michaelson , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: TCP mandatory? (Was: initial thoughts on draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile-00 Message-ID: <20080114090525.GA17771@nic.fr> References: <200801102220.m0AMKgiV054611@ogud.com> <33592D99-2FC2-4151-82F1-B2C1608CDAE8@ca.afilias.info> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <33592D99-2FC2-4151-82F1-B2C1608CDAE8@ca.afilias.info> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-5-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 01:59:05PM -0500, Joe Abley wrote a message of 478 lines which said: > >4.2.2. TCP > > > > {new normative language, maybe.. } The server MAY accept TCP > > connections. {? what is the correct wording and reference?} > > I think that MAY should be a MUST. I am in sympathy with this view point but do note that EDNS0 is mandatory, if I read correctly the previous section. It seems to adress your concern. My personal inclination would be "the name server MUST offer EDNS0 - with large sizes - *or* TCP". -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 14 04:18:33 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JELSj-00022B-6U; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 04:18:33 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JELSh-0007PB-7E; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 04:18:33 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JELL1-000FTe-FX for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 09:10:35 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-202.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, USER_IN_ALL_SPAM_TO,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [156.154.24.139] (helo=ns4.neustar.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JELKV-000FRA-6g for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 09:10:20 +0000 Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns4.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 569D52AC69; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 09:10:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JELKU-0001aW-30; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 04:10:02 -0500 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D Action:draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2672bis-dname-08.txt Message-Id: Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 04:10:02 -0500 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: b5d20af10c334b36874c0264b10f59f1 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the DNS Extensions Working Group of the IETF. Title : Update to DNAME Redirection in the DNS Author(s) : S. Rose, W. Wijngaards Filename : draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2672bis-dname-08.txt Pages : 16 Date : 2008-01-14 The DNAME record provides redirection for a sub-tree of the domain name tree in the DNS system. That is, all names that end with a particular suffix are redirected to another part of the DNS. This is an update to the original specification in RFC 2672, also aligning RFC 3363 and RFC 4294 with this revision.Requirements Language The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119 [RFC2119]. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2672bis-dname-08.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2672bis-dname-08.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2672bis-dname-08.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-01-14040523.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2672bis-dname-08.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2672bis-dname-08.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-01-14040523.I-D\@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 14 04:32:07 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JELfr-0005ve-1x; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 04:32:07 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JELfq-0007Za-Fi; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 04:32:07 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JELbI-000GfB-0B for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 09:27:24 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [213.154.224.1] (helo=open.nlnetlabs.nl) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JELau-000GdM-NL for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 09:27:12 +0000 Received: from gary.nlnetlabs.nl (gary.nlnetlabs.nl [IPv6:2001:7b8:206:1:216:76ff:feb8:1853]) by open.nlnetlabs.nl (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0E9Qt9n082958 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 10:26:56 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from wouter@nlnetlabs.nl) Message-ID: <478B2AE0.2060108@nlnetlabs.nl> Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 10:26:56 +0100 From: Wouter Wijngaards User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071115) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Namedroppers Subject: updated dname draft-08 X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (open.nlnetlabs.nl [IPv6:2001:7b8:206:1::53]); Mon, 14 Jan 2008 10:26:56 +0100 (CET) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 5a9a1bd6c2d06a21d748b7d0070ddcb8 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi, The new updated DNAME-bis draft has the following changes 07->08: o Some spelling and grammar corrections. o Cleanup of text on the fact that a DNAME is not allowed at the parent side of a delegation (no mention of SOA records and so on). o Text talks about resource records that exist at a domain name subordinate to the owner name of the dname. (in the 'no data below' text). o removed text about chasing chains of cname/dnames out of zone, it was out of scope. o dns cache text changed, 'do not crash when DNAME records are changed'. the text: ~ DNS caches can encounter data at names below the owner name of a ~ DNAME RR, due to a change at the authoritative server where data from ~ before and after the change resides in the cache. This conflict ~ situation is a transitional phase, that ends when the old data times ~ out. The cache can opt to store both old and new data and treat each ~ as if the other did not exist, or drop the old data, or drop the ~ longer domain name. In any approach, consistency returns after the ~ older data TTL times out. o dynamic update for DNAME works like NS records. the text: ~ Dynamic update for DNAME records works similar to dynamic update for ~ delegating NS records. For example, adding a DNAME obscures names in ~ the zone. DNAME records can be added, changed and removed. o text about keeping signing keys online removed, it now says: ~ The answer shown above has the synthesized CNAME included. However, ~ the CNAME has no signature, since the server does not sign online. ~ So it cannot be trusted. It could be altered by an attacker to be ~ ... bla bla I think I have captured all open issues from the working group with this new version. Let me know if any issues remain. 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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 14 09:39:53 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JEQTh-0005YB-D6; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 09:39:53 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JEQTf-0004gp-3U; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 09:39:53 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JEQKc-000FSu-Ts for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 14:30:30 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HEADER_SPAM, RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JEQJq-000FPA-AF for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 14:30:03 +0000 Received: from mail.ogud.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0EETZxo081281 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 09:29:35 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers@mail.ogud.com) Received: (from namedroppers@localhost) by mail.ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id m0EETZPi081280 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 09:29:35 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers) Received: from [204.152.184.138] (helo=mail2.ntp.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JDtFg-00040S-Oo for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 03:11:13 +0000 Received: from 65-86-158-146.client.dsl.net (65-86-158-146.client.dsl.net [65.86.158.146]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail2.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7944B398AE; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 03:11:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mayer@ntp.isc.org) Received: from cust-63-209-227-203.bos-dynamic.gis.net ([63.209.227.203] helo=[10.10.10.100]) by 65-86-158-146.client.dsl.net with esmtpsa (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1JDtFA-0002rH-GJ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:10:40 -0500 Message-ID: <4789812D.8050507@ntp.isc.org> Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:10:37 -0500 From: Danny Mayer Reply-To: mayer@ntp.isc.org User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Florian Weimer Cc: Edward Lewis , Andras Salamon , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: In the spirit of Festivus References: <477B712E.8060602@isc.org> <87wsqs9x6n.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> <20080102172146.GA13020@dns.net> <87fxxdgvy6.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> <87myrc7kwg.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> In-Reply-To: <87myrc7kwg.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-kostecke.net-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-kostecke.net-MailScanner-From: mayer@ntp.isc.org X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 66.92.146.160 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 [ Moderators note: Post was moderated, either because it was posted by a non-subscriber, or because it was over 20K. With the massive amount of spam, it is easy to miss and therefore delete relevant posts by non-subscribers. Please fix your subscription addresses. ] Florian Weimer wrote: > * Edward Lewis: > >> 1) "For example, when DNS" >> 2) "As one example, suppose a DNS" >> 3) "In the case of destination address selection, the >> DNS may return a set of addresses for a given name, and an >> application needs to decide which one to use..." >> 4) when applied to the set of addresses returned by the DNS >> 5) Consider a site ... All hosts in both sites register two addresses >> in the DNS. >> >> #'s 1,2,5 the DNS is seen playing a supporting role in an example. # >> 3 talks about an application dealing with the normal return of the >> DNS. > > The RFC may be worded as if this were an application issue, but to my > knowledge, your item 3 is implemented in resolvers (if implemented at > all). Therefore, Rule 9 in RFC 3484 changes DNS name resolution > behavior which was previously documented in RFC 2219 and other places. > > I understand that it's sometimes desirable to disguise DNS protocol > changes as application behavior recommendation to route RFCs around > certain working groups. But the net effect is the same: if the change > is bogus and is implemented widely, considerable suffering is the > result. (In fact, this is what happened with Rule 9 in RFC 3484.) One of the interesting recent requests we've had in ntp is to pick randomly from the list of addresses returned so that any ntp daemon is likely to use a different address for the ntp server that it's going to query. The is useful since although the pool DNS server are regularly updating the list, if you don't randomize what you use then a lot of clients are likely to use it. For the pool option we also want to use a randomized list. We don't expect DNS or the resolvers to give a randomized list, we expect to need to do this ourselves. This sort of thing is exactly what 3) talks about. Danny -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From bob@sea-signs.com Mon Jan 14 09:54:34 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JEQhu-0004hx-Oo; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 09:54:34 -0500 Received: from [200.196.37.106] (helo=[200.196.37.106]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JEQht-0003Fi-K3; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 09:54:34 -0500 Received: from [200.196.37.106] by mail-fwd.mx.g19.rapidsite.net; Mon, 13 Jan 2008 11:53:17 -0300 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2008 11:53:17 -0300 From: "Raymond Ashley" X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.62.03) Home Reply-To: bob@sea-signs.com X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <251299574.32888303186581@sea-signs.com> To: agentx-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Square MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 1.7 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 7aefe408d50e9c7c47615841cb314bed We have popular med s. Dont miss out on this huge savings http://fastexciting.com Atlanta, Georgia.weekly, plus T-ball huge variety of would worry if successful children. Above all, beneficial but should not be viewed has a the pressure, classes in a a lack of playtime of me that and parents alike. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 14 10:43:22 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JERT8-0004V0-Kz; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 10:43:22 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JERT8-0006NE-Br; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 10:43:22 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JERLL-000KwG-Q7 for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 15:35:19 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [204.152.187.1] (helo=sa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JERLF-000Kvk-83 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 15:35:14 +0000 Received: from sa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 957A511429; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 15:35:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@sa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: Wouter Wijngaards cc: Namedroppers Subject: Re: updated dname draft-08 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 14 Jan 2008 10:26:56 +0100." <478B2AE0.2060108@nlnetlabs.nl> References: <478B2AE0.2060108@nlnetlabs.nl> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.0.2; nmh 1.0.4; GNU Emacs 21.3.1 Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 15:35:12 +0000 Message-ID: <62627.1200324912@sa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 wouter, i have not been following these drafts, but, i have a question. will a conforming implementation of the existing DNAME RFC also be a fully conforming implementation of the next one? that is, are you fixing the RFC language and adding some optional signalling, or are you invalidating what was said before? if so, can the new DNAME draft include a summary of exactly what has to be done differently by a conforming old DNAME agent to turn it into a conforming new DNAME agent? --paul -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 14 11:49:00 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JESUd-0002bW-Vu; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 11:48:59 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JESUd-0007f2-Gr; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 11:48:59 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JESLf-0001Vm-Dp for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 16:39:43 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [213.154.224.1] (helo=open.nlnetlabs.nl) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JESLD-0001Se-Ss for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 16:39:30 +0000 Received: from gary.nlnetlabs.nl (gary.nlnetlabs.nl [IPv6:2001:7b8:206:1:216:76ff:feb8:1853]) by open.nlnetlabs.nl (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0EGdAxg041001; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 17:39:10 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from wouter@nlnetlabs.nl) Message-ID: <478B902E.5080108@nlnetlabs.nl> Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 17:39:10 +0100 From: Wouter Wijngaards User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071115) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Vixie CC: Namedroppers Subject: Re: updated dname draft-08 References: <478B2AE0.2060108@nlnetlabs.nl> <62627.1200324912@sa.vix.com> In-Reply-To: <62627.1200324912@sa.vix.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (open.nlnetlabs.nl [IPv6:2001:7b8:206:1::53]); Mon, 14 Jan 2008 17:39:10 +0100 (CET) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi Paul, RFC has nicer language with an optional UD bit added. What is said before is not invalidated (well re-phrased), so a conforming old DNAME agent (like, BIND, NSD ;-) ) would need to do nothing to conform. (although the UD bit is a nice little extra touch that MAY be implemented). The dnssec concern 'need to understand dname' is repeated and explained. The dname-substitution is explained in smaller words. Usage of DNAME in practice for NS, MX, PTR records is explained. DNAME-wildcard discouragement is repeated. Best regards, ~ Wouter Paul Vixie wrote: | wouter, i have not been following these drafts, but, i have a question. | will a conforming implementation of the existing DNAME RFC also be a | fully conforming implementation of the next one? that is, are you | fixing the RFC language and adding some optional signalling, or are you | invalidating what was said before? if so, can the new DNAME draft include | a summary of exactly what has to be done differently by a conforming old | DNAME agent to turn it into a conforming new DNAME agent? --paul -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHi5AukDLqNwOhpPgRAgSpAKC1Gqn4EiL+tidJk+XHHDm2M2ZuKACgmgDR nLnEbYgcNGAK7XYRW8lTLWQ= =3nn+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 14 11:57:28 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JEScq-0000Ok-OI; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 11:57:28 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JEScp-0007sL-Jv; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 11:57:28 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JESXr-00030b-QA for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 16:52:19 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [129.6.16.226] (helo=smtp.nist.gov) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JESXS-0002wm-BA for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 16:52:06 +0000 Received: from 98-140.antd.nist.gov (98-140.antd.nist.gov [129.6.140.98]) by smtp.nist.gov (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0EGpfFX006965; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 11:51:41 -0500 Message-ID: <478B931D.3080306@nist.gov> Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 11:51:41 -0500 From: Scott Rose Organization: NIST User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Vixie CC: Wouter Wijngaards , Namedroppers Subject: Re: updated dname draft-08 References: <478B2AE0.2060108@nlnetlabs.nl> <62627.1200324912@sa.vix.com> In-Reply-To: <62627.1200324912@sa.vix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NIST-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-NIST-MailScanner-From: scottr@nist.gov Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 41c17b4b16d1eedaa8395c26e9a251c4 Basically yes, but the changes are: Server side Old: server generated CNAME RRs have TTL=0 Always generated CNAMEs in response containing DNAME New: server generated CNAME RRs have TTL = DNAME TTL (some implementations already do this) Only generate CNAME RRs if the Understand DNAME (UD) bit is NOT set (EDNS0 flags field - 2nd highest bit requested) Server MUST return RCODE=REFUSED to a dynamic update message that would add any RR with a domain name under a DNAME RR's ownername. Server handles adding DNAME RRs much like adding a NS to a zone (removes any domain names that would be under the DNAME ownername). Client side New: If resolver understands DNAME RRs in a response (i.e. follow them without the need of a CNAME) set the UD bit in the EDNS0 flags section. If generated CNAMEs present, expect TTL = DNAME TTL or TTL = 0 Caches: Discussion only The rest of the draft is a discussion of DNAME including clarification and pulling in sections of other drafts that discuss DNAME RRs. I think that's all. Would it help if this was expanded and included as an appendix to the draft? Scott Paul Vixie wrote: > wouter, i have not been following these drafts, but, i have a question. > will a conforming implementation of the existing DNAME RFC also be a > fully conforming implementation of the next one? that is, are you > fixing the RFC language and adding some optional signalling, or are you > invalidating what was said before? if so, can the new DNAME draft include > a summary of exactly what has to be done differently by a conforming old > DNAME agent to turn it into a conforming new DNAME agent? --paul > > -- > to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with > the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. > archive: > -- ---------------------------------------- Scott Rose Computer Scientist NIST ph: +1 301-975-8439 scott.rose@nist.gov http://www-x.antd.nist.gov/dnssec http://www.dnsops.gov/ ----------------------------------------- -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From Macias74@bertam.com.my Mon Jan 14 13:30:12 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JEU4a-0007s6-9r for dnsext-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 13:30:12 -0500 Received: from 212.97.184.202.static.user.ono.com ([212.97.184.202] helo=bertam.com.my) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JEU4X-0001lw-Ex for dnsext-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 13:30:10 -0500 Message-ID: <001a01c856e3$dfad7170$00a9792c@xpcpmgym1td4eq> From: "Ivy Sarafian" To: "dnsext-archive" Subject: Transactions specialist - flexi-time contract hire Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 19:30:09 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.2969 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.2969 X-Spam-Score: 1.7 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 00e94c813bef7832af255170dca19e36 Hello, I am writing to draw your attention to the flexi-time accounting/clerical position available with our company. 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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 14 13:30:35 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JEU4x-0007uy-Qk; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 13:30:35 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JEU4x-00020n-55; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 13:30:35 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JETvd-000Bar-5I for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:20:57 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [204.152.187.1] (helo=sa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JETvX-000BZj-4j for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:20:54 +0000 Received: from sa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7454811425; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:20:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@sa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: Scott Rose cc: Wouter Wijngaards , Namedroppers Subject: Re: updated dname draft-08 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 14 Jan 2008 11:51:41 EST." <478B931D.3080306@nist.gov> References: <478B2AE0.2060108@nlnetlabs.nl> <62627.1200324912@sa.vix.com> <478B931D.3080306@nist.gov> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.0.2; nmh 1.0.4; GNU Emacs 21.3.1 Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:20:45 +0000 Message-ID: <70150.1200334845@sa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: cf3becbbd6d1a45acbe2ffd4ab88bdc2 > Basically yes, but the changes are: thanks very much for this, and for wouter's answer to the same lazy question from me. > Server side > Old: > server generated CNAME RRs have TTL=0 > Always generated CNAMEs in response containing DNAME > > New: > server generated CNAME RRs have TTL = DNAME TTL (some implementations > already do this) > > Only generate CNAME RRs if the Understand DNAME (UD) bit is NOT set (EDNS0 > flags field - 2nd highest bit requested) so far so good. > Server MUST return RCODE=REFUSED to a dynamic update message that would add > any RR with a domain name under a DNAME RR's ownername. > > Server handles adding DNAME RRs much like adding a NS to a zone (removes > any domain names that would be under the DNAME ownername). these are both controversial. see below. > Client side > New: > If resolver understands DNAME RRs in a response (i.e. follow them without > the need of a CNAME) set the UD bit in the EDNS0 flags section. and presumably ignore any presented CNAMEs whose owner matches a presented DNAME (since not all servers will notice the UD). but since EDNS is hop/hop i'm going to ask whether recursive servers are allowed to synthesize CNAME if there is a cached DNAME and UD=0? (i don't need to know, it's fine with me either way, i just hope the draft covers this.) > If generated CNAMEs present, expect TTL = DNAME TTL or TTL = 0 how does an initiator know whether the presented CNAMEs are synthetic? > Caches: > Discussion only > > The rest of the draft is a discussion of DNAME including clarification and > pulling in sections of other drafts that discuss DNAME RRs. > > I think that's all. Would it help if this was expanded and included as an > appendix to the draft? yes, very much. --- now for the two controversial UPDATE issues first, RCODE=REFUSED is defined by RFC 2136 as follows: REFUSED 5 The name server refuses to perform the specified operation for policy or security reasons. every RCODE related to UPDATE failure that is dependent on pre-existing zone content is something other than REFUSED. by "policy" in the above text, we really meant something that had a configuration knob, where the knob was in the "wrong" or incompatible position. to use RCODE=REFUSED as a data-present zone content incompatibility would be, in my opinion, the wrong thing to do. i propose that RCODE=YXDOMAIN be used instead: YXDOMAIN 6 Some name that ought not to exist, does exist. here, we deliberately did not say that the name which does exist is, or is not, the same as a name being updated. it covers perfectly well the case you said: "would add any RR with a domain name under a DNAME RR's ownername." if this isn't reasonable, then i propose we allocate a new RCODE for this case, but that no matter what we do, we must not use RCODE=REFUSED. second, automatic removal of removal of domains below a DNAME. RFC 2136 does not, as far as i can tell by searching it, ask an UPDATE responder to delete names when an NS RR is added. in fact, this issue came up during the DNSIND discussions and we determined that since the zone searching algorythm used by QUERY would stop when searching downward from the apex upon encounter with an NS RRset, then it was theoretically possible to add an NS RR which would hide all data beneath its owner name, and then later delete that NS RRset causing all the previously hidden data to become visible. since DNAME has the same effect on QUERY's downward search as NS has (that is, the search stops), i think there is no reason to require any automatic deletion of data when a DNAME is added. sorry to be so late with this. i don't keep up with drafts like i used to. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 14 14:29:53 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JEV0L-0003nc-Kn; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 14:29:53 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JEV0J-0003LX-1x; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 14:29:53 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JEUtc-000Id2-9T for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 19:22:56 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [129.6.16.226] (helo=smtp.nist.gov) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JEUt6-000IYj-Dy for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 19:22:41 +0000 Received: from 98-140.antd.nist.gov (98-140.antd.nist.gov [129.6.140.98]) by smtp.nist.gov (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0EJM4iL031837; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 14:22:05 -0500 Message-ID: <478BB65C.30608@nist.gov> Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 14:22:04 -0500 From: Scott Rose Organization: NIST User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Vixie CC: Wouter Wijngaards , Namedroppers Subject: Re: updated dname draft-08 References: <478B2AE0.2060108@nlnetlabs.nl> <62627.1200324912@sa.vix.com> <478B931D.3080306@nist.gov> <70150.1200334845@sa.vix.com> In-Reply-To: <70150.1200334845@sa.vix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NIST-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-NIST-MailScanner-From: scottr@nist.gov Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 6cca30437e2d04f45110f2ff8dc1b1d5 Paul Vixie wrote: > > now for the two controversial UPDATE issues > > first, RCODE=REFUSED is defined by RFC 2136 as follows: > > REFUSED 5 The name server refuses to perform the > specified operation for policy or > security reasons. > > every RCODE related to UPDATE failure that is dependent on pre-existing zone > content is something other than REFUSED. by "policy" in the above text, we > really meant something that had a configuration knob, where the knob was in > the "wrong" or incompatible position. to use RCODE=REFUSED as a data-present > zone content incompatibility would be, in my opinion, the wrong thing to do. > > i propose that RCODE=YXDOMAIN be used instead: > > YXDOMAIN 6 Some name that ought not to exist, > does exist. > > here, we deliberately did not say that the name which does exist is, or is > not, the same as a name being updated. it covers perfectly well the case you > said: "would add any RR with a domain name under a DNAME RR's ownername." if > this isn't reasonable, then i propose we allocate a new RCODE for this case, > but that no matter what we do, we must not use RCODE=REFUSED. > Hmm, sounds like it might be more correct to have RCODE=YXDOMAIN. Is there anyone who suggests RCODE=REFUSED is more correct? It isn't a policy decision to refuse the update, but a specification. The RCODE should be the same as the RCODE returned by the server that sees a dynamic update message that attempts to add a record with a domain name under a delegation (NS RR) in the zone. > second, automatic removal of removal of domains below a DNAME. RFC 2136 does > not, as far as i can tell by searching it, ask an UPDATE responder to delete > names when an NS RR is added. in fact, this issue came up during the DNSIND > discussions and we determined that since the zone searching algorythm used by > QUERY would stop when searching downward from the apex upon encounter with an > NS RRset, then it was theoretically possible to add an NS RR which would hide > all data beneath its owner name, and then later delete that NS RRset causing > all the previously hidden data to become visible. since DNAME has the same > effect on QUERY's downward search as NS has (that is, the search stops), i > think there is no reason to require any automatic deletion of data when a > DNAME is added. > Actually, I mis-spoke. The text in the DNAME-08 draft is: Dynamic update for DNAME records works similar to dynamic update for delegating NS records. For example, adding a DNAME obscures names in the zone. DNAME records can be added, changed and removed. It doesn't delete names, but obscures them. Scott > sorry to be so late with this. i don't keep up with drafts like i used to. > -- ---------------------------------------- Scott Rose Computer Scientist NIST ph: +1 301-975-8439 scott.rose@nist.gov http://www-x.antd.nist.gov/dnssec http://www.dnsops.gov/ ----------------------------------------- -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 14 14:55:24 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JEVP2-0005OO-GC; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 14:55:24 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JEVP2-00049N-5u; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 14:55:24 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JEVJ4-000L63-3i for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 19:49:14 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [204.152.187.1] (helo=sa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JEVJ0-000L5B-Q3 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 19:49:12 +0000 Received: from sa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5072011425; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 19:49:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@sa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: Scott Rose cc: Wouter Wijngaards , Namedroppers Subject: Re: updated dname draft-08 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 14 Jan 2008 14:22:04 EST." <478BB65C.30608@nist.gov> References: <478B2AE0.2060108@nlnetlabs.nl> <62627.1200324912@sa.vix.com> <478B931D.3080306@nist.gov> <70150.1200334845@sa.vix.com> <478BB65C.30608@nist.gov> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.0.2; nmh 1.0.4; GNU Emacs 21.3.1 Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 19:49:09 +0000 Message-ID: <75074.1200340149@sa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 > Hmm, sounds like it might be more correct to have RCODE=YXDOMAIN. Is there > anyone who suggests RCODE=REFUSED is more correct? It isn't a policy > decision to refuse the update, but a specification. The RCODE should be > the same as the RCODE returned by the server that sees a dynamic update > message that attempts to add a record with a domain name under a delegation > (NS RR) in the zone. in that case, don't prohibit it at all for DNAME, since it's not prohibited for NS. > Actually, I mis-spoke. The text in the DNAME-08 draft is: > > Dynamic update for DNAME records works similar to dynamic update for > delegating NS records. For example, adding a DNAME obscures names in > the zone. DNAME records can be added, changed and removed. > > It doesn't delete names, but obscures them. that's fine, and goes to support the idea of not rejecting new names under a DNAME. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From davidpm@tipis.org Mon Jan 14 20:29:04 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JEabv-0008Pi-RA; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 20:29:03 -0500 Received: from [216.218.125.229] (helo=[216.218.125.229]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JEabu-0003lb-Qa; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 20:29:03 -0500 Received: from [216.218.125.229] by mx01.1and1.com; Mon, 13 Jan 2008 20:27:47 -0500 From: "Patrick Schwartz" To: Subject: Coffee-shop Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2008 20:27:47 -0500 Message-ID: <01c85622$c25fe380$e57ddad8@davidpm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Importance: Normal X-Spam-Score: 1.7 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 7aefe408d50e9c7c47615841cb314bed We sell only popular medication s. 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Medical professionals have endorsed the HerbalMaxx system to help men just like you achieve increased SIZE, LENGTH and WIDTH of their Manhood http://kuvufuve98807.googlepages.com/index.html From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 15 03:23:27 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JEh4w-0006g9-PU; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 03:23:26 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JEh4v-0007Ya-5F; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 03:23:26 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JEgvv-00005c-Lr for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 08:14:07 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [213.154.224.1] (helo=open.nlnetlabs.nl) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JEgvY-00002v-OK for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 08:13:56 +0000 Received: from gary.nlnetlabs.nl (gary.nlnetlabs.nl [IPv6:2001:7b8:206:1:216:76ff:feb8:1853]) by open.nlnetlabs.nl (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0F8DZcc018780; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 09:13:36 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from wouter@nlnetlabs.nl) Message-ID: <478C6B2F.7030407@nlnetlabs.nl> Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 09:13:35 +0100 From: Wouter Wijngaards User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071115) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Vixie CC: Scott Rose , Namedroppers Subject: Re: updated dname draft-08 References: <478B2AE0.2060108@nlnetlabs.nl> <62627.1200324912@sa.vix.com> <478B931D.3080306@nist.gov> <70150.1200334845@sa.vix.com> In-Reply-To: <70150.1200334845@sa.vix.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (open.nlnetlabs.nl [IPv6:2001:7b8:206:1::53]); Tue, 15 Jan 2008 09:13:36 +0100 (CET) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Paul Vixie wrote: |> If resolver understands DNAME RRs in a response (i.e. follow them without |> the need of a CNAME) set the UD bit in the EDNS0 flags section. | | and presumably ignore any presented CNAMEs whose owner matches a presented | DNAME (since not all servers will notice the UD). but since EDNS is hop/hop | i'm going to ask whether recursive servers are allowed to synthesize CNAME | if there is a cached DNAME and UD=0? (i don't need to know, it's fine with | me either way, i just hope the draft covers this.) Servers copy UD into response, so resolvers can see UD bit in response. Servers are allowed to synthesize CNAMEs from cached DNAME records. There is no text about ignoring presented CNAMEs if UD bit is copied but CNAME synthesis is performed anyway. |> If generated CNAMEs present, expect TTL = DNAME TTL or TTL = 0 | | how does an initiator know whether the presented CNAMEs are synthetic? Synthetic because they are the expansion of the DNAME in the packet. Best regards, ~ Wouter -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHjGsvkDLqNwOhpPgRAu/9AJ0eiGw1OI2OdmMcuqd3TA/NXM1MNACgmLvB TpXhfHOq9m2zT31WKudlzmE= =Ghpa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 15 05:48:23 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JEjLD-00011X-6E; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 05:48:23 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JEjLC-0002F3-Q8; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 05:48:23 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JEjDT-000Au6-Oq for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 10:40:23 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [204.152.187.1] (helo=sa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JEjDR-000Atg-3Z for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 10:40:22 +0000 Received: from sa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A68A11425; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 10:40:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@sa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: Wouter Wijngaards cc: Scott Rose , Namedroppers Subject: Re: updated dname draft-08 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 15 Jan 2008 09:13:35 +0100." <478C6B2F.7030407@nlnetlabs.nl> References: <478B2AE0.2060108@nlnetlabs.nl> <62627.1200324912@sa.vix.com> <478B931D.3080306@nist.gov> <70150.1200334845@sa.vix.com> <478C6B2F.7030407@nlnetlabs.nl> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.0.2; nmh 1.0.4; GNU Emacs 21.3.1 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 10:40:20 +0000 Message-ID: <20323.1200393620@sa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 > Servers copy UD into response, so resolvers can see UD bit in response. > Servers are allowed to synthesize CNAMEs from cached DNAME records. > There is no text about ignoring presented CNAMEs if UD bit is copied but > CNAME synthesis is performed anyway. thanks. > |> If generated CNAMEs present, expect TTL = DNAME TTL or TTL = 0 > | > | how does an initiator know whether the presented CNAMEs are synthetic? > > Synthetic because they are the expansion of the DNAME in the packet. so if a presented DNAME is superior to a presented CNAME, then a receiver can assume that they are related (CNAME was synthesized)? what if there is more than one label of difference between them, and one of those labels has other data, and there is no actual relationship, and the CNAME is real? i think you need a signalling method to say, the CNAME was generated, if you want initiators to be able to reliably ignore them when a DNAME is also presented. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 15 07:49:35 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JElEV-0002KA-7Y; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 07:49:35 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JElEU-0003tP-N5; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 07:49:35 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JEl6i-000Lkb-7Y for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:41:32 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [213.154.224.1] (helo=open.nlnetlabs.nl) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JEl6K-000LhA-Uz for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:41:20 +0000 Received: from gary.nlnetlabs.nl (gary.nlnetlabs.nl [IPv6:2001:7b8:206:1:216:76ff:feb8:1853]) by open.nlnetlabs.nl (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0FCf4Ei067158; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 13:41:04 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from wouter@nlnetlabs.nl) Message-ID: <478CA9DA.7070603@nlnetlabs.nl> Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 13:40:58 +0100 From: Wouter Wijngaards User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071115) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Vixie CC: Scott Rose , Namedroppers Subject: Re: updated dname draft-08 References: <478B2AE0.2060108@nlnetlabs.nl> <62627.1200324912@sa.vix.com> <478B931D.3080306@nist.gov> <70150.1200334845@sa.vix.com> <478C6B2F.7030407@nlnetlabs.nl> <20323.1200393620@sa.vix.com> In-Reply-To: <20323.1200393620@sa.vix.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Paul Vixie wrote: | thanks. np. | |> |> If generated CNAMEs present, expect TTL = DNAME TTL or TTL = 0 |> | |> | how does an initiator know whether the presented CNAMEs are synthetic? |> |> Synthetic because they are the expansion of the DNAME in the packet. | | so if a presented DNAME is superior to a presented CNAME, then a receiver | can assume that they are related (CNAME was synthesized)? what if there | is more than one label of difference between them, and one of those labels | has other data, and there is no actual relationship, and the CNAME is real? If there is more than one label of difference, the DNAME applies. Those other labels are not allowed to have data (no data below DNAME). If the CNAME is real, then there is some sort of data below a DNAME, which is not allowed. The DNAME applies to all names ending in that suffix, also names with lots of labels more. | i think you need a signalling method to say, the CNAME was generated, if | you want initiators to be able to reliably ignore them when a DNAME is also | presented. Is the current UD bit copied into the response, if older servers won't copy it into the response, good enough? Best regards, ~ Wouter -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHjKnakDLqNwOhpPgRAnRDAKCQKAcdaT8ioYkLgf2RR+A3AVGWLwCeKV16 oWgzKto5aNMo35+ZovR8L3c= =84Bg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 15 08:04:47 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JElTD-0005vr-P4; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 08:04:47 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JElTB-00044D-GS; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 08:04:47 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JElMZ-000N5Z-W3 for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:57:55 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [193.1.169.34] (helo=dakota.ucd.ie) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JElM4-000N1n-P6 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:57:40 +0000 Received: from conversion-daemon.dakota.ucd.ie by dakota.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-2.05 (built Apr 28 2005)) id <0JUO00501RSKGA00@dakota.ucd.ie> (original mail from Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie) for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:57:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.0.1.189] ([83.141.81.52]) by dakota.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-2.05 (built Apr 28 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0JUO00D3ARZKI0G0@dakota.ucd.ie>; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:57:23 +0000 (GMT) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:57:19 +0000 From: Niall O'Reilly Subject: Re: updated dname draft-08 In-reply-to: <20323.1200393620@sa.vix.com> To: Paul Vixie Cc: Niall O'Reilly , Wouter Wijngaards , Scott Rose , Namedroppers Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.753) Content-type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-24-903824018; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.1.2 (Tiger) References: <478B2AE0.2060108@nlnetlabs.nl> <62627.1200324912@sa.vix.com> <478B931D.3080306@nist.gov> <70150.1200334845@sa.vix.com> <478C6B2F.7030407@nlnetlabs.nl> <20323.1200393620@sa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 3002fc2e661cd7f114cb6bae92fe88f1 --Apple-Mail-24-903824018 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On 15 Jan 2008, at 10:40, Paul Vixie wrote: > so if a presented DNAME is superior to a presented CNAME, then a > receiver > can assume that they are related (CNAME was synthesized)? what if > there > is more than one label of difference between them, and one of those > labels > has other data, The number of labels involved shouldn't matter: below is below. OTOH, step 3C of the algorithm seems to require an empty non-terminal to trigger DNAME processing. This can't be right. Wouter, Scott ? > and there is no actual relationship, and the CNAME is real? On an authoritative server, DNAME obscures. If this is not the operational intention, it's an error on the part of the zone administrator. In cache, this must be a transient issue, already considered. Now, the specification of step 4 reads, "If QNAME is not found in the cache but a DNAME record is present at an ancestor of QNAME, copy that DNAME record into the answer section." This gives priority to an exact QNAME match, even if a superior (and thus obscuring) DNAME has subsequently arrived in the cache. I'm not sure whether this is right, but is it indeed the intention ? Besides, it's not clear to me that step 5 of the algorithm is sufficiently specified. In RFC1034, specification of this step refers to a section where the resolver algorithm is given more detailed treatment. Such a resolver section may be needed here too. > i think you need a signalling method to say, the CNAME was > generated, if > you want initiators to be able to reliably ignore them when a DNAME > is also > presented. TTL=0 _was_ this signalling. I'm not suggesting we go back there. 8-) Best regards, Niall O'Reilly University College Dublin IT Services PGP key ID: AE995ED9 (see www.pgp.net) Fingerprint: 23DC C6DE 8874 2432 2BE0 3905 7987 E48D AE99 5ED9 --Apple-Mail-24-903824018 content-type: application/pgp-signature; x-mac-type=70674453; name=PGP.sig content-description: This is a digitally signed message part content-disposition: inline; filename=PGP.sig content-transfer-encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin) iD4DBQFHjK20eYfkja6ZXtkRAqPlAJjBSjqnSU7Qie48q4GsDjYxGSjYAJ9ZBwv5 1HplCZwx0g8UsQ1oNE7f3g== =qxXy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail-24-903824018-- -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 15 12:56:09 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JEq1B-0003M3-Dk; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:56:09 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JEq19-0001wm-85; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:56:09 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JEpqV-0003KI-Gj for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 17:45:07 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [204.152.187.1] (helo=sa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JEpqQ-0003JW-Ua for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 17:45:06 +0000 Received: from sa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60C971143A; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 17:45:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@sa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: Wouter Wijngaards cc: Scott Rose , Namedroppers Subject: Re: updated dname draft-08 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 15 Jan 2008 13:40:58 +0100." <478CA9DA.7070603@nlnetlabs.nl> References: <478B2AE0.2060108@nlnetlabs.nl> <62627.1200324912@sa.vix.com> <478B931D.3080306@nist.gov> <70150.1200334845@sa.vix.com> <478C6B2F.7030407@nlnetlabs.nl> <20323.1200393620@sa.vix.com> <478CA9DA.7070603@nlnetlabs.nl> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.0.2; nmh 1.0.4; GNU Emacs 21.3.1 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 17:45:02 +0000 Message-ID: <39938.1200419102@sa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 > | so if a presented DNAME is superior to a presented CNAME, then a receiver > | can assume that they are related (CNAME was synthesized)? what if there > | is more than one label of difference between them, and one of those labels > | has other data, and there is no actual relationship, and the CNAME is > | real? > > If there is more than one label of difference, the DNAME applies. Those > other labels are not allowed to have data (no data below DNAME). If the > CNAME is real, then there is some sort of data below a DNAME, which is not > allowed. The DNAME applies to all names ending in that suffix, also names > with lots of labels more. there's a lot of subtlety there. but i agree, it works. > | i think you need a signalling method to say, the CNAME was generated, if > | you want initiators to be able to reliably ignore them when a DNAME is > | also presented. > > Is the current UD bit copied into the response, if older servers won't > copy it into the response, good enough? it wouldn't, since older authority servers also synthesize, but according to what you pointed out above, it doesn't matter in that case. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From akil@barrow-island.com Tue Jan 15 15:41:15 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JEsax-0000kO-Hx; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 15:41:15 -0500 Received: from [201.244.9.44] (helo=Corporativos2449-44.etb.net.co) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JEsaw-0005kf-Ib; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 15:41:15 -0500 Received: from [201.244.9.44] by rhea.easily.co.uk; Tue, 14 Jan 2008 16:01:54 -0500 Message-ID: <01c856c6$c80f0500$2c09f4c9@akil> From: "Kermit Bentley" To: Subject: Re: Bentley Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2008 16:01:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.2173.0 X-Spam-Score: 1.9 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea 6 out of 10 long-term relationship breakups report that sexual problems were a major contributory factor! http://www.glueplot.com you would be look "in the wild". begin as early as infancy. that I have been better at solving software But so does living From oliver@akagi.com Tue Jan 15 16:10:48 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JEt3Y-00060x-MH for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 16:10:48 -0500 Received: from [189.70.196.140] (helo=18970196140.user.veloxzone.com.br) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JEt3X-0006Og-0Q for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 16:10:48 -0500 Message-ID: <000a01c857b2$02fd546f$b097eb85@rsktv> From: "jereme dante" To: Subject: Save on Top Designer Brands Shoes Uggs Gucci Chanel Prada Dior Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 18:23:10 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C857B2.02FBCBBF" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 082a9cbf4d599f360ac7f815372a6a15 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C857B2.02FBCBBF Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Finally, the 2008 Collections are in, enjoy 70% OFF Brand Name = Shoes & Boots=20 for Men & Women from TOP Fashion Designers. 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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 16 05:14:26 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JF5Hu-0005Ui-MF; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 05:14:26 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JF5Ht-0001hI-QC; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 05:14:26 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JF559-0006GN-74 for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 10:01:15 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, USER_IN_WHITELIST_TO autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [85.17.178.135] (helo=spalding.dds.nl) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JF556-0006F5-0T for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 10:01:14 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spalding.dds.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD62062800C; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 11:01:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from spalding.dds.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (spalding.dds.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01291-03; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 11:01:06 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.254.1] (82-170-145-155-static.dsl.ip.tiscali.nl [82.170.145.155]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by spalding.dds.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46AEF1F81AA; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 11:00:51 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <478DD5D3.5090508@nlnetlabs.nl> Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 11:00:51 +0100 From: "W.C.A. Wijngaards" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071115) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Namedroppers CC: George Michaelson Subject: draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile-00 X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.90.1/5484/Tue Jan 15 20:31:27 2008 on spalding.dds.nl X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: d16ce744298aacf98517bc7c108bd198 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi, Some comments on the draft. ~ Therefore, this document should be actively maintained, and updated ~ to reflect changes in DNS standardization. Suggest this document should be updated when a significant body of new DNS developments have occurred. ~ {new normative language} This document catalogs the compliance issues ~ for an implementation of any component of the DNS. Implementors MUST ~ adhere to the collected state of these directives to be considered ~ fully compliant to DNS RFCs and STDs. I suggest the text Implementors MUST adhere to the collected state of these directives to be considered standards compliant to DNS RFCs and STDs as listed in RFC####(this RFC). especially the last words, conforming to this RFC makes you, well, this-RFC### conformant. ~ {new normative language. the -bis document needs its reference ~ confirmed.} EDNS0 MUST be implemented by all DNS systems. Its use is ~ an operational decision. This is is line with [RFC 1996] and its ~ -bis document. The RFC1996 is about NOTIFY. Does not mention EDNS0. Mistaken. ~ {new normative language} The DNS Database consistency MUST be ~ maintained. Data MUST NOT leak between zones. [RFC 1997] The RFC1997 is about BGP. What is this DNS Database, and what is this consistency between zones? Maybe I'd better implement BGP :-) (I mean, this is confusing). ~ {new normative language} Processing if dns names in US-ASCII range ~ MUST be case insensitive. [RFC 1035 (2.3.3)] also see [RFC 1034 ~ (3.1)] Oh and you can refer to RFC4343, this isn't referenced yet in the document. About 4.1.1 zone contents. How about splitting this section up. * Zone file format. And its support. * Zone contents. Checking of. * supported RR types (not only in the context of a 'zone file'). The zone file format section should also not the $BLA directives to support. $TTL and $ORIGIN are a MUST. ~ {new normative language: needs RFC reference} A served zone SHOULD ~ not contain errors, or produce unpredictable results when RRs that ~ are obsolete, or not implemented are encountered. First, let's split this into two parts; no errors and old-RRs. * a served zone SHOULD not have errors. Does this mean that an authoritative server (even a secondary) has to perform zone-checking? Does this mean checking the output of the zone signer? Or only CNAME rules? Checking signatures? These checks can become very cumbersome. Suggest. The operator should not load zones with errors. Or change so that only the primary server does the checking. Or change so that the zone-signer does checking of its work. There also exist human errors, I mean, the address in an A record could be wrong because a server has moved. This is not what you mean here. It is evident I do not like this as written, I do support some limited checks on zone content, more along the lines of syntax checks than full-blown 'lint for DNS zones'. * A served zone SHOULD produce unpredictable results when RRs that ~ are obsolete, or not implemented are encountered You mean SHOULD NOT. Engineering software to be robust in the face of unpredictable and unexpected inputs is a great thing, but I feel this is the wrong place to discuss implementation engineering practice. Suggest. Handle such RR types in a sane and reasonable manner. Possibly falling back to treating as unknown RR types. ~ 4. The TTLs of all RRs in an RRSet MUST be the same. {RFC reference ~ required} RFC 2181 section 5.2. ~ 5. You must adhere to [RFC 2672 (Section 3)] and {reference will ~ need updating to published RFC} ~ [I-D.ietf-dnsext-rfc2671bis-edns0] in respect of data below ~ DNAME. Suggest. in respect of data conflicting with DNAME records. ~ 6. There MUST be no data below CNAME, and only DNSSEC records with ~ CNAME. [RFC 4034] [RFC 4035] Suggest, There MUST be no data at the same name as a CNAME, and only DNSSEC records with a CNAME. TCP I suggest 'The server MAY NOT accept TCP'. The closing dormant connection timeout is reasonable, and used in practice. ~ * {new normative language} The following are optional but ~ recommended techologies, which SHOULD be handled gracefully, ~ rather than through use of NOTIMPL ~ + OPCODE 4 (NOTIFY) SHOULD+ be supported [RFC 1995] ~ + OPCODE 5 (UPDATE) SHOULD+ be supported [RFC 2136 (sect 3)] Suggest, which SHOULD be implemented, instead of replied with NOTIMPL. I consider a NOTIMPL reply perfectly fine in DNS protocol. ~ o {no RFC/normatives found, need guidance} ~ * AA bit in query packet SHOULD be ignored. ~ * TC bit set in a query packet SHOULD+ be answered with FORMERR. Guidance: In the spirit of lenient acceptance and strict sending for network implementation (there is probably an RFC or BCP for that). The TC bit answer FORMERR MUST not have the TC bit set. 5. Stub Resolvers ~ TBD 6. Recursive Resolvers ~ TBD 7. Middle-Boxes ~ TBD Text is needed. Add 8. Zone signers. I think the document tends to get down into too many details, where it is meant to be a dry list of READ RFC 1,2,3,4 ... Discussing the bits, error codes and so on, and drilling down into 1034 sections can be useful, but should be done in -bis documents, or their own guideline documents. Consider trimming section 4 in this draft to a simpler list. Simply put 1034 in the list of MUST support RFCs. The lack of normative language in the 1034 can require a 1034 update, but don't do this in this draft. I do not think it is worth the effort to normatize 1034 now. It would be nice for the reader to refer to RFCs with a one-liner. You MUST comply to rfc1995 which details incremental zone transfers. Note well that such friendly text does not alter the RFC referenced. Possibly put a couple (less than 5) bullet points summarizing the main issues from that RFC. Best regards, ~ Wouter -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHjdXTkDLqNwOhpPgRAlhYAJ499hD48ObgPDcTEdGqzAt3r63EjwCeL81E Z2i3PP+QQiF/mIQLcd0iVTA= =K5Vy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From Mervin.Fishman@pricemasters.co.uk Wed Jan 16 08:56:12 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JF8kW-0005AL-Oc for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 08:56:12 -0500 Received: from host1-65-dynamic.8-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it ([79.8.65.1]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JF8kV-0002Zv-UC for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 08:56:12 -0500 Received: from Antonio ([156.101.132.190]:7069 "EHLO Antonio" smtp-auth: TLS-CIPHER: TLS-PEER-CN1: ) by host1-65-dynamic.8-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it with ESMTP id S22LBBNSKGYELQQP (ORCPT ); Wed, 16 Jan 2008 14:56:15 +0100 Message-ID: <5AF7B638.D39580A9@pricemasters.co.uk> Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 14:56:04 +0100 From: "Mervin Fishman" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (Windows/20070326) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: tuanitca Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 4.5 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 08e48e05374109708c00c6208b534009 TAKE 1000 EURO, DO NOT LET THE OTHERS DO IT http://www.orsyneb.net/
From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 16 12:20:41 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFBwP-0003TS-Mr; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 12:20:41 -0500 Received: from [2001:418:1::62] (helo=psg.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFBwP-0004tq-Am; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 12:20:41 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFBn1-000D1W-QT for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 17:10:59 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFBmw-000D0u-Jb for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 17:10:58 +0000 Received: from Puki.ogud.com (mail.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.6]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0GHAnGA002104 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 12:10:49 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ogud@ogud.com) Message-Id: <200801161710.m0GHAnGA002104@ogud.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 12:10:45 -0500 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3lafur?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Gu=F0mundsson?= /DNSEXT chair Subject: Continue work on draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile-00 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 10.20.30.6 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Dear colleagues, So far I have seen number of good editorial comments on the draft. The question that needs to be answered is it worth our while to continue this work or something like it? The possible answers are: YES, NO, Maybe with explanation, Not sure. If the answer is not NO then are you willing to participate in the effort? thanks Olafur -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 16 13:44:02 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFDF4-0005Cl-JW; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 13:44:02 -0500 Received: from [2001:418:1::62] (helo=psg.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFDF2-0006R1-4U; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 13:44:02 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFD6b-000KZE-Rc for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 18:35:17 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [199.212.90.4] (helo=monster.hopcount.ca) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFD6Z-000KYx-Fw for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 18:35:16 +0000 Received: from [199.212.90.22] (helo=yxu1a22.hopcount.ca) by monster.hopcount.ca with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFD6U-000CNv-Pq; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 18:35:11 +0000 Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Message-Id: <0A54426C-A7D2-418C-8FF2-BBE16BD7C29C@ca.afilias.info> From: Joe Abley To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D3lafur_Gu=F0mundsson_/DNSEXT_chair?= In-Reply-To: <200801161710.m0GHAnGA002104@ogud.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) Subject: Re: Continue work on draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile-00 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 13:35:10 -0500 References: <200801161710.m0GHAnGA002104@ogud.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.915) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 On 16-Jan-2008, at 12:10, =D3lafur Gu=F0mundsson /DNSEXT chair wrote: > The question that needs to be answered is it worth our while to =20 > continue > this work or something like it? > > The possible answers are: YES, NO, Maybe with explanation, Not sure. I would say yes. The current difficulty in judging whether an implementation or =20 configuration/service functions according to the DNS standards =20 routinely causes me pain, and I have hope that this document, if it =20 proceeds, will fill that gap. Joe -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 16 14:23:47 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFDrW-0002vZ-Us; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 14:23:46 -0500 Received: from [2001:418:1::62] (helo=psg.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFDrV-000777-7v; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 14:23:46 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFDij-000OW5-1z for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 19:14:41 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [129.6.16.226] (helo=smtp.nist.gov) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFDig-000OVh-5m for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 19:14:39 +0000 Received: from postmark.nist.gov (emailha2.nist.gov [129.6.16.198]) by smtp.nist.gov (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0GJEWbJ019692 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 14:14:32 -0500 Received: from 619893L ([129.6.220.160]) by postmark.nist.gov (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id m0GJESDf007485 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 14:14:29 -0500 From: "Scott Rose" To: Subject: RE: Continue work on draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile-00 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 14:14:28 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <200801161710.m0GHAnGA002104@ogud.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Importance: Normal X-NIST-MailScanner-Information: X-NIST-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-NIST-MailScanner-From: scottr@nist.gov Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org > [mailto:owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org]On Behalf Of Olafur Gu?mundsson > > Dear colleagues, > So far I have seen number of good editorial comments on the draft. > > The question that needs to be answered is it worth our while to continue > this work or something like it? > > The possible answers are: YES, NO, Maybe with explanation, Not sure. > Maybe. I think it might help new developers. > If the answer is not NO then are you willing to participate in the effort? > Maybe, but I'm not a developer or admin of a major infrastructure. Scott > -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From ChristinaweldVilla@elderly.com Wed Jan 16 14:37:53 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFE5B-000877-HX; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 14:37:53 -0500 Received: from dyn-91-171-30-235.ppp.tiscali.fr ([91.171.30.235] helo=pcdefamille) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFE5B-0006DM-5a; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 14:37:53 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by host32816092.elderly.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id pGLcElrk51.687910.b7d.gZW.1861197716124 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 20:37:31 -0100 Message-ID: <814e01c85877$42ee38c0$0301a8c0@PCdefamille> From: "Rose Griggs" To: , =20

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It may even classes in a contribute to depression It can help children stress for children the report says.and marketing pitches Academy her kids From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 17 10:29:26 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFWgI-0004cp-So; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 10:29:26 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFWgI-0006WA-IX; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 10:29:26 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFWUO-000NqK-K9 for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 15:17:08 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,NO_RELAYS autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:4f8:0:2::1c] (helo=mx.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFWUM-000Npy-7o for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 15:17:07 +0000 Received: from farside.isc.org (farside.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:3:bb::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "farside.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (verified OK)) by mx.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDDC0114082; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 15:16:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Shane_Kerr@isc.org) Received: from [IPv6:2001:888:1936:5:216:6fff:fe49:7d9b] (unknown [IPv6:2001:888:1936:5:216:6fff:fe49:7d9b]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 886B4E607D; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 15:16:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from shane@isc.org) Message-ID: <478F7163.8030506@isc.org> Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:16:51 +0100 From: Shane Kerr Reply-To: shane_kerr@isc.org Organization: ISC User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071116) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D3lafur_Gu=F0mundsson_/DNSEXT_chair?= CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Continue work on draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile-00 References: <200801161710.m0GHAnGA002104@ogud.com> In-Reply-To: <200801161710.m0GHAnGA002104@ogud.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Ólafur Guðmundsson /DNSEXT chair wrote: > > Dear colleagues, > So far I have seen number of good editorial comments on the draft. > > The question that needs to be answered is it worth our while to continue > this work or something like it? > > The possible answers are: YES, NO, Maybe with explanation, Not sure. YES. > If the answer is not NO then are you willing to participate in the effort? I am. I'm going through the existing draft now. -- Shane -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 17 11:10:13 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFXJl-0001in-Qm; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 11:10:13 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFXJi-0007EC-Jx; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 11:10:13 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFXDi-00050G-SS for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:03:58 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [69.17.117.3] (helo=mail1.sea5.speakeasy.net) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFXDg-0004zs-G1 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:03:57 +0000 Received: (qmail 8160 invoked from network); 17 Jan 2008 16:03:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [164.99.121.186]) (federico@[130.57.22.201]) (envelope-sender ) by mail1.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 17 Jan 2008 16:03:28 -0000 Message-ID: <478F7C74.9000101@ximian.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 11:04:04 -0500 From: Federico Lucifredi User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D3lafur_Gu=F0mundsson_/DNSEXT_chair?= CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Continue work on draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile-00 References: <200801161710.m0GHAnGA002104@ogud.com> In-Reply-To: <200801161710.m0GHAnGA002104@ogud.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb Ólafur Guðmundsson /DNSEXT chair wrote: > > Dear colleagues, > So far I have seen number of good editorial comments on the draft. > > The question that needs to be answered is it worth our while to continue > this work or something like it? > > The possible answers are: YES, NO, Maybe with explanation, Not sure. > YES. > If the answer is not NO then are you willing to participate in the effort? Cannot currently, but will have time post 2/1. > > thanks > Olafur > > Best -Federico > -- > to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with > the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. > archive: -- _________________________________________ -- "'Problem' is a bleak word for challenge" - Richard Fish (Federico L. 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A brand new sexually powerfull man is only a few weeks away. http://reenuyes.com From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 17 17:47:01 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFdVl-0006rs-Ow; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:47:01 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFdVj-0008HU-HI; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:47:01 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFdMZ-000AlO-Hc for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:37:31 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HEADER_SPAM, RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFdMU-000Akl-Ld for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:37:30 +0000 Received: from hlid.ogud.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0HMbNV9017191 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:37:23 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers@hlid.ogud.com) Received: (from namedroppers@localhost) by hlid.ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id m0HMbMNE017190 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:37:23 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers) Received: from [204.152.187.1] (helo=sa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFGek-000JW3-3S for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 22:22:47 +0000 Received: by sa.vix.com (Postfix, from userid 716) id 85B8C11439; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 22:22:45 +0000 (UTC) To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Continue work on draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile-00 References: From: Paul Vixie Date: 16 Jan 2008 22:22:45 +0000 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 23 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 66.92.146.160 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 [ Moderators note: Post was moderated, either because it was posted by a non-subscriber, or because it was over 20K. With the massive amount of spam, it is easy to miss and therefore delete relevant posts by non-subscribers. Please fix your subscription addresses. ] =D3lafur Gu=F0mundsson /DNSEXT chair writes: > So far I have seen number of good editorial comments on the draft. >=20 > The question that needs to be answered is it worth our while to continue > this work or something like it? something like it, yes. a profile would be too short. what we need is a new specification series incorporating the rest of the dns related work that has been done, much as 1033/2034/2035 did for 882/883/973. > The possible answers are: YES, NO, Maybe with explanation, Not sure. maybe with an explaination. > If the answer is not NO then are you willing to participate in the effort? if a strong xml-modern unprejudiced editor can be found, i'd read, review, comment, and contribute. if others are helping to fund that work, i'd try to find a way to chip in. if others are willing to fund that work, i'd be willing to coordinate. --=20 Paul Vixie -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 17 17:47:54 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFdWc-0007N2-Ny; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:47:54 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFdWc-0008LE-Bq; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:47:54 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFdMK-000Ajx-QF for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:37:16 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HEADER_SPAM, RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFdMI-000AjW-Cu for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:37:15 +0000 Received: from hlid.ogud.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0HMbAnh017185 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:37:10 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers@hlid.ogud.com) Received: (from namedroppers@localhost) by hlid.ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id m0HMbAnH017184 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:37:10 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers) Received: from [149.20.54.152] (helo=shuttle.c-l-i.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFXI5-0005rP-Tx for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:08:31 +0000 Received: from localhost (shuttle [149.20.54.152]) by shuttle.c-l-i.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC4C71802F; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:08:26 +0000 (GMT) Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Message-Id: <541B4A2F-53AB-4E8E-8B10-4648504BADDA@c-l-i.net> From: Joao Damas To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D3lafur_Gu=F0mundsson_/DNSEXT_chair?= In-Reply-To: <200801161710.m0GHAnGA002104@ogud.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) Subject: Re: Continue work on draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile-00 Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:08:26 +0100 References: <200801161710.m0GHAnGA002104@ogud.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.915) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 66.92.146.160 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 [ Moderators note: Post was moderated, either because it was posted by a non-subscriber, or because it was over 20K. With the massive amount of spam, it is easy to miss and therefore delete relevant posts by non-subscribers. Please fix your subscription addresses. ] On 16 Jan 2008, at 18:10, =D3lafur Gu=F0mundsson /DNSEXT chair wrote: > > Dear colleagues, > So far I have seen number of good editorial comments on the draft. > > The question that needs to be answered is it worth our while to =20 > continue > this work or something like it? > > The possible answers are: YES, NO, Maybe with explanation, Not sure. > yes, absolutely so. > If the answer is not NO then are you willing to participate in the =20 > effort? I am hoping to send comments shortly Joao= -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 17 17:53:48 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFdcK-000632-1q; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:53:48 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFdcJ-00008s-En; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:53:48 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFdY3-000CTn-Ab for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:49:23 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFdY0-000CTF-2G for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:49:21 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.106] (hlid.ogud.com [66.92.146.160]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0HMn6lf017306; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:49:07 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:48:09 -0500 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Edward Lewis Subject: AXFR "clarify" Cc: ed.lewis@neustar.biz Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c Here's a work topic I'd like to get moving, something that got stalled almost 5 years ago. Starting from http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dnsext/draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify/ and probably most notably the objections raised on this web page [0]: http://cr.yp.to/djbdns/axfr-clarify.html [0] That's the only document I could find of the objections, but they appear to be somewhat out of date with respect to the -05 version. The reason I want to address this is that a number of industry requests are coming out requesting "AXFR" access to databases and they RFPs want a list of RFCs that specify compliance. Yes, I'm asking for a paper exercise here, I want to be able to respond with "yes, we comply with RFC 7xxx". I tried (weakly I admit because I want to get on with this) to get the background on this document from some people without a response. That's no condemnation on any of the parties involved, but I hoped to have something to show before bringing this up to the WG. Because I know passions run deep on this list. With the permission of the chair and working group, I'd like to take stab at rewriting the draft, in the spirit of the wildcard "clarify" document. In my opinion, the -05 needs to be fixed in a few places although I don't recognize the problem points that caused Dan Bernstein's objections - I mean as far as what in the -05 causes interoperability problems. In the web page I cite above Dan made a few good points, but it seems that those points were levied against earlier versions of the document and were addressed for the most part by -05. One of the tones I'd like to change is to have the document recognize that inter-server zone replication can be done many ways, AXFR is just one, the one least functional, most interoperable way defined. Much as 1034's wildcards are just a subset of record or answer synthesis. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 NeuStar Think glocally. 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------=_NextPart_000_D814_01C85974.64B91A30-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 17 21:17:49 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFgnk-00063Y-SJ; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 21:17:48 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFgnj-0003QK-B3; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 21:17:48 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFgeZ-000LAD-LN for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 02:08:19 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [157.185.61.2] (helo=M4.sparta.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFgeX-000L9l-AG for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 02:08:18 +0000 Received: from Beta5.sparta.com (beta5.sparta.com [157.185.63.21]) by M4.sparta.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id m0I289vX007527; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 20:08:09 -0600 Received: from nemo.columbia.ads.sparta.com (nemo.columbia.sparta.com [157.185.80.75]) by Beta5.sparta.com (8.12.11/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0I288Ax020401; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 20:08:09 -0600 Received: from localhost ([157.185.80.253]) by nemo.columbia.ads.sparta.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 17 Jan 2008 21:08:08 -0500 Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 21:07:39 -0500 (EST) From: Sam Weiler X-X-Sender: weiler@mint.samweiler.com To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3lafur?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Gu=F0mundsson?= /DNSEXT chair cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: DNS protocol profile document effort. In-Reply-To: <200801102220.m0AMKgiV054611@ogud.com> Message-ID: References: <200801102220.m0AMKgiV054611@ogud.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="8323328-647361894-1200621728=:28304" Content-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Jan 2008 02:08:08.0716 (UTC) FILETIME=[F85174C0:01C85976] X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (M4.sparta.com [157.185.61.2]); Thu, 17 Jan 2008 20:08:09 -0600 (CST) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --8323328-647361894-1200621728=:28304 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1; FORMAT=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Content-ID: On Thu, 10 Jan 2008, Ólafur Guðmundsson /DNSEXT chair wrote: > 5. The document will avoid updating any RFC, it may reinterpret > certain sections of old RFC's to follow RFC normative language. > 6. Any RFC that is shown by this process to be defective, the working > group should generate an -bis document for it. > 7. Any RFC or part of that is identified as obsolete should be > explicitly obsoleted by a new RFC. The above rules seem slightly inconsistent with those in Section 1 of the current (-00) doc: the doc sounds like it might make minor changes itself rather than roll new versions of old RFCs. If we're going to write this document, let's avoid creating more little do-nothing documents: have this document make minor changes and declare other documents obsolete, when that can be done easily. Accordingly, I oppose the three rules above. > Does the working group think that this effort warrants a meeting in > Philadelphia, that basically will be a walk through on the > document to identify which sections have issues ? It seems like physical meetings could well be useful, but only if we have a document that's far more fleshed out than this -00. Let's hold off on making that decision until we see the -01 (and maybe -02). If there is no -01, then no meeting. In general, this does seem like a useful thing for the world to have. I'm not sure how much time I'll be able to contribute. -- Sam --8323328-647361894-1200621728=:28304-- -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 17 21:59:03 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFhRe-0003Os-Vq; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 21:59:02 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFhRe-0003vN-K4; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 21:59:02 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFhLS-0000wf-0m for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 02:52:38 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc] (helo=drugs.dv.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFhLP-0000wG-EI for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 02:52:36 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0I2qRjB081629; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 13:52:28 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200801180252.m0I2qRjB081629@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Edward Lewis Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: AXFR "clarify" In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:48:09 CDT." Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 13:52:27 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 The first thing the WG has to decide is which document we are producing. * a document that allows for future growth and removes implementation quirks. [Some implementations will not be conformant with the new specification. Known quirks should be documented but should not be accepted by default.] or * a minimal change document which allows leaves all existing implementations comformant. I believe most of the issues are because Dan percieved the that the later was what was requested but the former was what was coming out. I believe we should be producing a document that allows for future growth and removes implementation quirks. --------------------------------------- One thing that is missing is case preservation of rdata when using compression. This is a general requirement of DNS servers. When using label compression the master server MUST choose compression targets that preserve the case of the original domain name. In general, most servers are overly agressive when applying compression and do not met the spirit of RFC 103[45] when it comes to preserving case. This applies in general not just AXFR. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 17 22:28:30 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFhuA-0003TB-8y; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:28:30 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFhu9-0004F7-O7; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:28:30 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFhny-0005MZ-5N for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 03:22:06 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFhnv-0005Ks-KD for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 03:22:04 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.106] (hlid.ogud.com [66.92.146.160]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0I3LhJG020075; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:21:44 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200801180252.m0I2qRjB081629@drugs.dv.isc.org> References: <200801180252.m0I2qRjB081629@drugs.dv.isc.org> Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:20:45 -0500 To: Mark Andrews From: Edward Lewis Subject: Re: AXFR "clarify" Cc: Edward Lewis , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 66.92.146.160 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d8ae4fd88fcaf47c1a71c804d04f413d At 13:52 +1100 1/18/08, Mark Andrews wrote: > The first thing the WG has to decide is which document we > are producing. > > * a document that allows for future growth and removes > implementation quirks. > [Some implementations will not be conformant with the new > specification. Known quirks should be documented but > should not be accepted by default.] No! I feel strongly that this is not what we want. We don't need innovation in DNS now. It's good. There's a lot of work being done based on what it is, not what it may be. I really like it as it is - it has too much already even. And the worst thing the IETF can do is declare working DNS implementations (meaning they meet the needs of the application) invalid because of nuances or the desire for feature bloat. > > or > > * a minimal change document which allows leaves all existing > implementations comformant. That's what I want. I prefer not to change the world, it's a paper pushing exercise. > > I believe most of the issues are because Dan percieved the > that the later was what was requested but the former was > what was coming out. I can see that. I sympathize with both sides, but I somewhat agree with what *I think* is Dan's side. It's hard to say without talking to him. > I believe we should be producing a document that allows for > future growth and removes implementation quirks. I don't. And the folks that are asking us to be clear on AXFR prioritize meeting the de jure understanding of AXFR. > --------------------------------------- > > One thing that is missing is case preservation of rdata > when using compression. This is a general requirement of > DNS servers. > > When using label compression the master server MUST choose > compression targets that preserve the case of the original > domain name. > > In general, most servers are overly agressive when applying > compression and do not met the spirit of RFC 103[45] when > it comes to preserving case. This applies in general not > just AXFR. Well, maybe a mention of an issue like this, but really, does it matter? E.g., the world cares more about IDN than capitalization. I'm no longer really interested in maintaining the spirit of 1034 and 1035 if it becomes an obstacle to getting a useful definition of DNS. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 NeuStar Think glocally. Act confused. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 17 22:36:53 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFi2G-00026P-V6; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:36:52 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFi2G-0004My-KJ; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:36:52 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFhxJ-0007Dg-CY for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 03:31:45 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::1] (helo=sa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFhxH-0007DJ-5w for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 03:31:44 +0000 Received: from sa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE0841142E for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 03:31:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@sa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: AXFR "clarify" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 18 Jan 2008 13:52:27 +1100." <200801180252.m0I2qRjB081629@drugs.dv.isc.org> References: <200801180252.m0I2qRjB081629@drugs.dv.isc.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.0.2; nmh 1.0.4; GNU Emacs 21.3.1 Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 03:31:42 +0000 Message-ID: <1355.1200627102@sa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 > --------------------------------------- > > One thing that is missing is case preservation of rdata > when using compression. This is a general requirement of > DNS servers. > > When using label compression the master server MUST choose > compression targets that preserve the case of the original > domain name. > > In general, most servers are overly agressive when applying > compression and do not met the spirit of RFC 103[45] when > it comes to preserving case. This applies in general not > just AXFR. this can be a SHOULD but not a MUST. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 17 23:59:04 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFjJo-00074F-9N; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 23:59:04 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFjJm-0005QY-0M; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 23:59:04 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFjBr-000Ip0-CH for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 04:50:51 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc] (helo=drugs.dv.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFjBo-000IoY-Fs for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 04:50:50 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0I4ofNA024582; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 15:50:43 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200801180450.m0I4ofNA024582@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Edward Lewis Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: AXFR "clarify" In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:20:45 CDT." Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 15:50:41 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: cf3becbbd6d1a45acbe2ffd4ab88bdc2 > At 13:52 +1100 1/18/08, Mark Andrews wrote: > > The first thing the WG has to decide is which document we > > are producing. > > > > * a document that allows for future growth and removes > > implementation quirks. > > [Some implementations will not be conformant with the new > > specification. Known quirks should be documented but > > should not be accepted by default.] > > No! I feel strongly that this is not what we want. > > We don't need innovation in DNS now. I said *allows* for innovation. The current draft prevents innovation as it encodes forever a implementation bug, garbage message id's. There is nothing innovative about wanting to be able to check message id's of incoming AXFR streams and rejecting (or warning about) them if they don't match the AXFR's query id as default behaviour. Declaring nameservers that don't set the message id to that of the query as broken is a good thing. > It's good. There's a lot of > work being done based on what it is, not what it may be. I really > like it as it is - it has too much already even. > > And the worst thing the IETF can do is declare working DNS > implementations (meaning they meet the needs of the application) > invalid because of nuances or the desire for feature bloat. Actually it isn't. The worst thing the IETF can do is produce wishy washy specification. > > or > > > > * a minimal change document which allows leaves all existing > > implementations comformant. > > That's what I want. I prefer not to change the world, it's a paper > pushing exercise. The world's already changed and will continue to change. > > I believe most of the issues are because Dan percieved the > > that the later was what was requested but the former was > > what was coming out. > > I can see that. I sympathize with both sides, but I somewhat agree > with what *I think* is Dan's side. It's hard to say without talking > to him. > > > I believe we should be producing a document that allows for > > future growth and removes implementation quirks. > > I don't. And the folks that are asking us to be clear on AXFR > prioritize meeting the de jure understanding of AXFR. > > > --------------------------------------- > > > > One thing that is missing is case preservation of rdata > > when using compression. This is a general requirement of > > DNS servers. > > > > When using label compression the master server MUST choose > > compression targets that preserve the case of the original > > domain name. > > > > In general, most servers are overly agressive when applying > > compression and do not met the spirit of RFC 103[45] when > > it comes to preserving case. This applies in general not > > just AXFR. > > Well, maybe a mention of an issue like this, but really, does it > matter? E.g., the world cares more about IDN than capitalization. > I'm no longer really interested in maintaining the spirit of 1034 and > 1035 if it becomes an obstacle to getting a useful definition of DNS. Well if you don't want to take implementors experiences into account... People DO care about this. I've got the bug reports to prove it. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Jan 18 00:24:15 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFjiA-0003Xq-Ud; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 00:24:14 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFjiA-0005vC-Hk; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 00:24:14 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFjcA-000MJa-NA for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 05:18:02 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::1] (helo=sa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFjc8-000MJM-CY for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 05:18:01 +0000 Received: from sa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0477F11429; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 05:17:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@sa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: Mark Andrews cc: Edward Lewis , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: AXFR "clarify" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 18 Jan 2008 15:50:41 +1100." <200801180450.m0I4ofNA024582@drugs.dv.isc.org> References: <200801180450.m0I4ofNA024582@drugs.dv.isc.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.0.2; nmh 1.0.4; GNU Emacs 21.3.1 Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 05:17:59 +0000 Message-ID: <6166.1200633479@sa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de > Declaring nameservers that don't set the message id to that > of the query as broken is a good thing. i agree, having at least once made a coding mistake that mixed my outbound axfr streams and sent A's to B and B's to A. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From marketers-house.net@voiprateplans.com Fri Jan 18 02:36:36 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFlmG-0006Tu-P0 for dnsext-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 02:36:36 -0500 Received: from dwg159.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl ([83.22.66.159] helo=xqtopfn) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFlmF-0002jZ-My for dnsext-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 02:36:36 -0500 Message-ID: <000201c859a4$d7cb6980$0100007f@vkbpe> From: "Evan Young" To: Subject: 0EM Software Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 08:36:34 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0058_01C859A4.D7CB6980" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2905 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: f60d0f7806b0c40781eee6b9cd0b2135 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0058_01C859A4.D7CB6980 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000C_01C859A4.D7CB6980" ------=_NextPart_001_000C_01C859A4.D7CB6980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Info attached or here: http://www.mikaz.cn/ ----- When she wasnt occupied worryi Royce worked with the younger Royce was clearly worn out by The topic of his lectures was ------=_NextPart_001_000C_01C859A4.D7CB6980 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello

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------=_NextPart_000_13F00_01C859CB.25D442C0-- From bauds4@stellusconsulting.com Fri Jan 18 08:47:53 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFrZZ-00056x-0a for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 08:47:53 -0500 Received: from [189.25.146.47] (helo=18925146047.user.veloxzone.com.br) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFrZX-0003qr-WC for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 08:47:52 -0500 Received: from [189.25.146.47] by stellusconsulting.com.inbound15.mxlogic.net; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:47:51 -0300 From: "Jacklyn Elliott" To: Subject: DustyCosmicCock Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:47:51 -0300 Message-ID: <01c859bf$92686580$2f9219bd@bauds4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2670 Importance: Normal X-Spam-Score: 4.7 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 0f1ff0b0158b41ac6b9548d0972cdd31 RhodaShlongImpressive http://www.crazebenz.com From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Jan 18 10:03:05 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFskL-0007KL-9I; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:03:05 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFskJ-0001Cn-NZ; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:03:05 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFsVt-000HAY-60 for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 14:48:09 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFsVq-000HA6-41 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 14:48:07 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.106] (hlid.ogud.com [66.92.146.160]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0IElmjw024378; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 09:47:49 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200801180450.m0I4ofNA024582@drugs.dv.isc.org> References: <200801180450.m0I4ofNA024582@drugs.dv.isc.org> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 09:47:41 -0500 To: Mark Andrews From: Edward Lewis Subject: Re: AXFR "clarify" Cc: Edward Lewis , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 66.92.146.160 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 41c17b4b16d1eedaa8395c26e9a251c4 At 15:50 +1100 1/18/08, Mark Andrews wrote: > I said *allows* for innovation. The current draft prevents > innovation as it encodes forever a implementation bug, > garbage message id's. > > There is nothing innovative about wanting to be able to > check message id's of incoming AXFR streams and rejecting > (or warning about) them if they don't match the AXFR's query > id as default behaviour. > > Declaring nameservers that don't set the message id to that > of the query as broken is a good thing. You mention innovation and then give an example that is unrelated. As far as innovation, what I want to avoid is any discussion of the use of the other sections of the message AXFR does not make use of now (like Authority). When it comes to tightening up a requirement like you mention, I think that we need to hear from more implementers that such a change is desired. > Actually it isn't. The worst thing the IETF can do is produce > wishy washy specification. Which it already has done. The worst next thing is to break the world we built on a bad foundation. > The world's already changed and will continue to change. Engineers love to believe that, but some elements don't change. The DNS is nearing that point. > Well if you don't want to take implementors experiences into > account... > > People DO care about this. I've got the bug reports to > prove it. This is the first I have heard of it. Anyone else? And in that vein, a soapbox moment: I want to issue this challenge to the implementers on this list. A lot is heard about ISC's BIND experience. ISC has been energetic in contributing to the process. But the volume of the contribution sometimes backfires, and one victim has been the axfr-clarify document. To make a clarification, or an updated definition, have merit it needs to be based on a broad spectrum of implementation experiences. The goal is not to declare, by default, the BIND way of doing DNS as a standard. The goal is an interoperable definition. The experience of BIND yields a wealth of information to us, and that's valuable input. The question is how can the document benefit from the BIND reports without becoming BIND centric? The answer is to have input and reactions from other implementations. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 NeuStar Think glocally. Act confused. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Jan 18 14:31:37 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFwwD-0008Vq-2A; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 14:31:37 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFwwB-0002P6-0G; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 14:31:37 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFwk2-0008vM-J7 for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 19:19:02 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [193.227.124.2] (helo=mx01.bfk.de) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFwk0-0008ue-27 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 19:19:01 +0000 Received: from mx00.int.bfk.de ([10.119.110.2]) by mx01.bfk.de with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) id 1JFwju-00055X-JT; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 20:18:54 +0100 Received: from fweimer by bfk.de with local id 1JFwjv-0007Iv-97; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 20:18:55 +0100 To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3lafur_Gu=F0mundsson?= /DNSEXT chair Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Continue work on draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile-00 References: <200801161710.m0GHAnGA002104@ogud.com> From: Florian Weimer Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 20:18:55 +0100 In-Reply-To: <200801161710.m0GHAnGA002104@ogud.com> (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3laf?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?ur_Gu=F0mundsson's?= message of "Wed, 16 Jan 2008 12:10:45 -0500") Message-ID: <82sl0vx7q8.fsf@mid.bfk.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab * =D3lafur Gu=F0mundsson: > The question that needs to be answered is it worth our while to continue > this work or something like it? I think it's important to have such a document. I hope the WG will be able to produce it. I'm not sure if this is a YES or Maybe. > If the answer is not NO then are you willing to participate in the effort? Yes. --=20 Florian Weimer BFK edv-consulting GmbH http://www.bfk.de/ Kriegsstra=DFe 100 tel: +49-721-96201-1 D-76133 Karlsruhe fax: +49-721-96201-99 -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From MitchcaliphatePickett@packetonline.com Fri Jan 18 14:51:44 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFxFg-0003Fa-3W; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 14:51:44 -0500 Received: from 32-242.203-62.cust.bluewin.ch ([62.203.242.32] helo=114559680313) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFxFf-00011s-IQ; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 14:51:43 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by host29123777.packetonline.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id H2g2E9j481.993323.rin.XMr.7603430334269 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 20:51:17 -0100 Message-ID: <3205201c85a0b$8ae76620$2101a8c0@114559680313> From: "Lanny Mayo" To: Cc: , =20

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------=_NextPart_000_3204E_01C85A0B.8AE76620-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Jan 18 15:41:33 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFy1t-0000y9-Sk; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 15:41:33 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFy1r-00061c-4l; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 15:41:33 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFxur-000L44-Oj for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 20:34:17 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc] (helo=drugs.dv.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFxuo-000L32-Bs for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 20:34:16 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0IKY8LL088579; Sat, 19 Jan 2008 07:34:08 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200801182034.m0IKY8LL088579@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Edward Lewis Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: AXFR "clarify" In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Jan 2008 09:47:41 CDT." Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 07:34:08 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 386e0819b1192672467565a524848168 > At 15:50 +1100 1/18/08, Mark Andrews wrote: > > > I said *allows* for innovation. The current draft prevents > > innovation as it encodes forever a implementation bug, > > garbage message id's. > > > > There is nothing innovative about wanting to be able to > > check message id's of incoming AXFR streams and rejecting > > (or warning about) them if they don't match the AXFR's query > > id as default behaviour. > > > > Declaring nameservers that don't set the message id to that > > of the query as broken is a good thing. > > You mention innovation and then give an example that is unrelated. An example of innovations would be to multiplex responses down a TCP connection based on message id. At this point a server HAS to serialize the responses as it can't expect the client to be able to distingish responses to based on message id. It has to wait for the final SOA record to be transmitted before sending the next response. > As far as innovation, what I want to avoid is any discussion of the > use of the other sections of the message AXFR does not make use of > now (like Authority). > > When it comes to tightening up a requirement like you mention, I > think that we need to hear from more implementers that such a change > is desired. > > > Actually it isn't. The worst thing the IETF can do is produce > > wishy washy specification. > > Which it already has done. The worst next thing is to break the > world we built on a bad foundation. > > > The world's already changed and will continue to change. > > Engineers love to believe that, but some elements don't change. The > DNS is nearing that point. > > > Well if you don't want to take implementors experiences into > > account... > > > > People DO care about this. I've got the bug reports to > > prove it. > > This is the first I have heard of it. I wouldn't expect you to hear as you are not a vendor. It's marked as "func" as it required a API change to implement. 1811. [func] Preserve the case of domain names in rdata during zone transfers. [RT #13547] Those that want the fix are pointed to the version which contains the fix. > Anyone else? And in that vein, a soapbox moment: > > I want to issue this challenge to the implementers on this list. A > lot is heard about ISC's BIND experience. ISC has been energetic in > contributing to the process. But the volume of the contribution > sometimes backfires, and one victim has been the axfr-clarify > document. To make a clarification, or an updated definition, have > merit it needs to be based on a broad spectrum of implementation > experiences. > > The goal is not to declare, by default, the BIND way of doing DNS as > a standard. The goal is an interoperable definition. The experience > of BIND yields a wealth of information to us, and that's valuable > input. The question is how can the document benefit from the BIND > reports without becoming BIND centric? The answer is to have input > and reactions from other implementations. > -- > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 > NeuStar > > Think glocally. Act confused. -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Jan 18 16:15:41 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFyYv-0000Wi-Az; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 16:15:41 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFyYu-0006ci-RY; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 16:15:41 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFyRp-0000YA-H9 for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 21:08:21 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFyRm-0000Xj-PO for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 21:08:20 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.106] (hlid.ogud.com [66.92.146.160]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0IL7w36028768; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 16:08:11 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200801182034.m0IKY8LL088579@drugs.dv.isc.org> References: <200801182034.m0IKY8LL088579@drugs.dv.isc.org> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 16:07:55 -0500 To: Mark Andrews From: Edward Lewis Subject: Re: AXFR "clarify" Cc: Edward Lewis , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa At 7:34 +1100 1/19/08, Mark Andrews wrote: > An example of innovations would be to multiplex responses > down a TCP connection based on message id. At this point > a server HAS to serialize the responses as it can't expect > the client to be able to distingish responses to based on > message id. It has to wait for the final SOA record to be > transmitted before sending the next response. How would that work. The first message must have the SOA, the last too. Everything in the middle can be jumbled every which way. But if you allow that, how do you know that the first gets in first and the last gets there last? If you are saying that we want to have two open AXFRs (for the same zone to the same client?) then we have other problems. How is the client to know which is newer? SOA serial numbers have to jump, but what I can concoct a scenario in which you can't tell the newer from the older. And if we randomize message IDs, they aren't in any sequence either. > I wouldn't expect you to hear as you are not a vendor. Then why hasn't the vendor brought this to the list? Okay, maybe no one asked, that'd be a fair question. So now I'm asking - anyone have a list of feature requests for the AXFR protocol? I don't think we are opening the door to changes. First steps are to have a definition of AXFR. Then see if we want change things. What I think is valid is to define AXFR in such a way to allow individual implementations to go off and do their own thing. So long as there's some semblance of a basic set of interopeable mechanisms. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 NeuStar Think glocally. Act confused. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Jan 18 16:33:49 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFyqT-0005mv-30; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 16:33:49 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JFyqS-0006ww-L3; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 16:33:49 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFyiI-000390-8K for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 21:25:22 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc] (helo=drugs.dv.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JFyiE-00038M-U4 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 21:25:20 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0ILPDlf089526; Sat, 19 Jan 2008 08:25:13 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200801182125.m0ILPDlf089526@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Edward Lewis Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: AXFR "clarify" In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Jan 2008 16:07:55 CDT." Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 08:25:13 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 > At 7:34 +1100 1/19/08, Mark Andrews wrote: > > > An example of innovations would be to multiplex responses > > down a TCP connection based on message id. At this point > > a server HAS to serialize the responses as it can't expect > > the client to be able to distingish responses to based on > > message id. It has to wait for the final SOA record to be > > transmitted before sending the next response. > > How would that work. The first message must have the SOA, the last > too. Everything in the middle can be jumbled every which way. But > if you allow that, how do you know that the first gets in first and > the last gets there last? Ed, please look up the definition of multiplexing in any communications text book. I'm not going to do communications theory 101. > If you are saying that we want to have two open AXFRs (for the same > zone to the same client?) then we have other problems. How is the > client to know which is newer? SOA serial numbers have to jump, but > what I can concoct a scenario in which you can't tell the newer from > the older. And if we randomize message IDs, they aren't in any > sequence either. > > I wouldn't expect you to hear as you are not a vendor. > > Then why hasn't the vendor brought this to the list? Okay, maybe no > one asked, that'd be a fair question. > > So now I'm asking - anyone have a list of feature requests for the > AXFR protocol? > > I don't think we are opening the door to changes. First steps are to > have a definition of AXFR. Then see if we want change things. > > What I think is valid is to define AXFR in such a way to allow > individual implementations to go off and do their own thing. So long > as there's some semblance of a basic set of interopeable mechanisms. > -- > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 > NeuStar > > Think glocally. Act confused. -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Jan 18 19:58:51 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JG22t-0001H9-O0; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 19:58:51 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JG22r-0003Jz-EK; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 19:58:51 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JG1ue-0008y7-Bv for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Sat, 19 Jan 2008 00:50:20 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JG1ub-0008xm-Qt for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 19 Jan 2008 00:50:19 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.106] (hlid.ogud.com [66.92.146.160]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0J0o4x6030460; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 19:50:06 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200801182034.m0IKY8LL088579@drugs.dv.isc.org> References: <200801182034.m0IKY8LL088579@drugs.dv.isc.org> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 19:49:50 -0500 To: Mark Andrews From: Edward Lewis Subject: capitalization was Re: AXFR "clarify" Cc: Edward Lewis , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 66.92.146.160 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 At 7:34 +1100 1/19/08, Mark Andrews wrote: It's marked as "func" as it required a API change to implement. > >1811. [func] Preserve the case of domain names in rdata during > zone transfers. [RT #13547] After thinking this over, this isn't an issue affecting the definition of AXFR. This is a domain name compression issue. You'd face the same issue (protocol wise) in any response message unit. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 NeuStar Think glocally. Act confused. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Jan 18 20:43:33 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JG2k9-00053Z-5y; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 20:43:33 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JG2k8-000440-QS; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 20:43:33 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JG2by-000EjT-CU for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Sat, 19 Jan 2008 01:35:06 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc] (helo=drugs.dv.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JG2bv-000Eiy-CJ for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 19 Jan 2008 01:35:04 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0J1Ywfh073667; Sat, 19 Jan 2008 12:34:58 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200801190134.m0J1Ywfh073667@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Edward Lewis Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: capitalization was Re: AXFR "clarify" In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Jan 2008 19:49:50 CDT." Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 12:34:58 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 > At 7:34 +1100 1/19/08, Mark Andrews wrote: > > It's marked as "func" as it required a API change to implement. > > > >1811. [func] Preserve the case of domain names in rdata during > > zone transfers. [RT #13547] > > After thinking this over, this isn't an issue affecting the > definition of AXFR. This is a domain name compression issue. You'd > face the same issue (protocol wise) in any response message unit. I said it was a general issue. People however worry about it more with AXFR than with other queries as AXFR provides a much larger set of compression targets. It gets realised rather than being potential. Mark > -- > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 > NeuStar > > Think glocally. Act confused. -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Jan 18 21:40:50 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JG3da-0001uM-Q2; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 21:40:50 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JG3dY-0004sd-KS; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 21:40:50 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JG3XI-000MZk-DT for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Sat, 19 Jan 2008 02:34:20 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [207.219.45.62] (helo=mail.libertyrms.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JG3XF-000MZO-KN for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 19 Jan 2008 02:34:19 +0000 Received: from [10.1.7.90] (helo=[10.1.7.90]) by mail.libertyrms.com with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1JG3XE-0007Md-5A; Fri, 18 Jan 2008 21:34:16 -0500 Message-ID: <479161A3.9080305@ca.afilias.info> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 21:34:11 -0500 From: Brian Dickson User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Edward Lewis CC: Mark Andrews , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: AXFR "clarify" References: <200801180450.m0I4ofNA024582@drugs.dv.isc.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: briand@ca.afilias.info X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: b1c41982e167b872076d0018e4e1dc3c Edward Lewis wrote: > At 15:50 +1100 1/18/08, Mark Andrews wrote: > >> I said *allows* for innovation. > > When it comes to tightening up a requirement like you mention, I think > that we need to hear from more implementers that such a change is > desired. > Such a change is desired. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't matter what the deployed base is, or the state of the software, or where or how it's used. Anyone doing any kind of implementation, for any purpose, of RFC 1034/1035/1995/1996 has a chip in the game. Like me. I vote for tightening up requirements. In 1034/1035, the language is "should" (lower case). At a minimum it should be "SHOULD", and preferably "MUST". (The irony of the case comparison between "should" and "SHOULD" is not lost on me.) I see no reason that the language describing the behavior (recommending against changing case on rdata) should be ignored, and the RFC text near that language, even contemplates potential reasons for this. >> Actually it isn't. The worst thing the IETF can do is produce >> wishy washy specification. > > Which it already has done. The worst next thing is to break the world > we built on a bad foundation. > Just like the data described in the protocols (like 822): (IMHO) Maintainers of RFCs should be liberal in what they accept, and strict in what they send. If you are updating an RFC, the worst thing you can do is weaken a specification. In fact, it could/should be argued, that when the opportunity to tighten up language *known* to be ambiguous, that it SHOULD be done. RFCs do not get updated that often, and this RFC is rather important to the health of the Internet. >> >> People DO care about this. I've got the bug reports to >> prove it. > > This is the first I have heard of it. Anyone else? And in that vein, > a soapbox moment: > > I want to issue this challenge to the implementers on this list. A > lot is heard about ISC's BIND experience. ISC has been energetic in > contributing to the process. But the volume of the contribution > sometimes backfires, and one victim has been the axfr-clarify > document. To make a clarification, or an updated definition, have > merit it needs to be based on a broad spectrum of implementation > experiences. > > The goal is not to declare, by default, the BIND way of doing DNS as a > standard. The goal is an interoperable definition. The experience of > BIND yields a wealth of information to us, and that's valuable input. > The question is how can the document benefit from the BIND reports > without becoming BIND centric? The answer is to have input and > reactions from other implementations. I humbly disagree The issue is strictly interoperability between implementations, which needs to be based on very strong RFCs. Interoperability is particularly critical for AXFR and IXFR. Inadequately specifications can (and will, and may in the past have) lead to problems directly as a consequence of implementation choices which are incompatible. And just as important - tightening up the RFCs lowers the barriers to new implementations which will interoperate with existing implementations. New implementations are important to ensuring a healthy diversity of available code for operators. Diversity is critical to protecting infrastructure. Single implementation populations are vulnerable to zero-day issues, which for DNS is not a reasonable situation. Case in point: AXFR/IXFR are special, because of the need/desire to achieve performance optimizations due to the volume of data, and the fact that both ends are authority servers. Consider a small mesh of servers, which for redundancy reasons includes multiple implementations. Data originates at a true, hidden master "M". Servers use software implementations, call them "B" and "N". It is quite conceivable that [AI]XFR paths could look like: M-N-N-B \ \ B-B-B-B(client) If the software "B" includes optimizations to determine the fingerprint of the upstream XFR sender, and quite reasonably assumes that case will be preserved on the XFR, it can then do simple binary comparison of labels, rather than a much slower byte-by-byte case-insensitive comparison. However, if "N" does case-smashing, then the two paths will contain XFR data which differs in case, but is otherwise identical. This *will* break the optimization. At the "client", the data from "N" path will be compared against data from the non-"N" path. Binary comparison of different-case data will fail, and zone data corruption is likely to occur (duplicate rdata differing only by case, specifically). (I will avoid naming names, but this exact situation *has* occurred in the past, in production zone data, so it's not just hypothetical.) Having case preserved specifically on XFR, is something much more important than any normal query/answer data. And, IMHO, special attention SHOULD be paid to this, possibly specifying case preservation as a "MUST". The *proper* place to do case-smashing is on the master (e.g. when data is imported into the DNS system), after which the issue can be viewed as moot. If the data prior to XFR is single-case, then problems can't be introduced by trying to optimize case, nor is there any *need* to do case optimizations. 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------=_NextPart_000_6486_01C85AEF.55F14D20-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Jan 20 02:22:41 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGUVt-00070k-M2; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 02:22:41 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGUVr-0001Ma-Bo; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 02:22:41 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JGUNt-000NsM-O7 for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 07:14:25 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [202.12.29.58] (helo=mint.apnic.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JGUNq-000NoG-VQ for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 07:14:24 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.102] (c220-239-69-148.rochd3.qld.optusnet.com.au [220.239.69.148]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mint.apnic.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7C81D5F2D for ; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 17:14:19 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <9146D840-1654-4D32-8BFC-2F14CD1420CC@apnic.net> From: George Michaelson To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) Subject: version -01 of draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile sent Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 17:14:18 +1000 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.915) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 1.2 (+) X-Scan-Signature: a2c12dacc0736f14d6b540e805505a86 I have just submitted a 01 revision of draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol- profile, incorporating many of the comments from the namedroppers list. Comments from Mark Andrews, Florien Weimer and Stephane Bortzmeyer weren't incorporated at this time, because I couldn't see convergence on a clear, non-normative text change in the discussion. My instructions from Olafur are to leave it to the WG to determine normative text, and only change when clear. A lot of non-normative changes such as spelling and syntactic fixes from Joe Abley and Wouter Wijngaards were incorporated wholesale, including getting rid of a specious reference to RFC1997 (BGP...) and updating several other RFC references. There are still many places in the document with text, lacking normative references entirely. A couple of minor normative language changes from both Joe and Wouter were incorporated. I believe these did not alter the sense of the normative language, only its syntax. A few new non-normative language references were introduced. For example the reference to NSID. Since this did not seem contentious, and is non-binding, I did it in the short term but if on reflection NSID is a problem area for people as couched, I can remove it again. I added slightly different references in for Authoritative Servers and Recursive Resolvers since the RFC observes the transitive issue slightly differently in each case. Some more deep, structural proposals from Wouter were not incorporated at this time. I believe I need to discuss these with Olafur, since they imply a different approach to the document. I would say in the meantime that I think they made perfect sense in the main, and would simplify reading the document. An ID issues tracker is obviously needed. I have sent some mail requesting assistance from one of the existing well known ID tracker sites. Paul Vixie's comments about XML are also valid, and I fully intend re- structuring the back-end XML into form to permit better editorial control of the text as it emerges, if the WG proceeds with this document. Sam Weiler suggested that Olafur's instructions to the WG in respect of process might disagree with the statements in the -00 draft. I have not altered the document in that area, pending clarification of how people wish to proceed. -George ---- 12. Changes since the -00 draft Spelling, improved language and other editorial changes (which did not alter the substance of normative language) from the namedroppers list were incorporated wholesale. (jabley) incorrect normative reference to 1997 removed. (jabley). text from 3597 on Transparancy for unknown RRtypes included (jabley). Better normative language for 4.1.1 (TCP Connection Management) adopted (jabley). Better normative language for 4.2.2 (TCP) adopted (jabley). Better normative language for 4.3 (UDP DNS Message Processing) adopted (jabley). References for OPT processing clarified (jabley). A section addressing [RFC 5001] in respect of NSID was added to the Server section and the Recursive Resolver section. (jabley) incorporated. Editorial from ml adopted for key approach section (wijngaards) incorrect normative reference to 1997 corrected to 2671 (wijngaards) added normative reference to 4343 (wijngaards) added normative reference to RRset TTL (wijngaards) editoral text in respect of NOTIFY/UPDATE (wijngaards) normative editorial text in respect of FORMERR TC bit (wijngaards) -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Jan 20 02:23:18 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGUWU-00075R-Tc; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 02:23:18 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGUWT-0001N1-Dk; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 02:23:18 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JGUTN-000OPX-Qn for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 07:20:05 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-202.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, USER_IN_ALL_SPAM_TO,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [156.154.24.139] (helo=ns4.neustar.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JGUTL-000OP8-3P for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 07:20:04 +0000 Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns4.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F13962AC7F; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 07:20:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JGUTJ-0004t4-OO; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 02:20:01 -0500 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D Action:draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile-01.txt Message-Id: Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 02:20:01 -0500 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10ba05e7e8a9aa6adb025f426bef3a30 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the DNS Extensions Working Group of the IETF. Title : The Modern DNS Implementation Guide Author(s) : G. Michaelson Filename : draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile-01.txt Pages : 26 Date : 2008-01-20 A structured catalogue of relevant DNS RFCs is presented with references to the specific normative sections which should be followed in a modern DNS implementation. This document is to be used as guide for DNS implementors, for testing and compliance of DNS software, and to help guide DNS standards' advancement. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile-01.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile-01.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile-01.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-01-20021133.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile-01.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile-01.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-01-20021133.I-D\@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From kjeld@nacionalre.es Sun Jan 20 07:47:27 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGZaB-0005sM-4J for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 07:47:27 -0500 Received: from mnch-4db1ad54.pool.einsundeins.de ([77.177.173.84]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGZa8-0003Zx-Km for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 07:47:27 -0500 Received: from lhc ([61.139.211.93]) by mnch-4db1ad54.pool.einsundeins.de with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:47:23 +0100 Message-ID: <479342DB.7040507@nacionalre.es> Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:47:23 +0100 From: User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.13 (Windows/20070809) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Your Friend and Lover Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0f1ff0b0158b41ac6b9548d0972cdd31 The Miracle of Love http://121.161.158.161/ From Farmaniaiw@m-worth.com Sun Jan 20 08:43:29 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGaSP-0006UZ-LY for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:43:29 -0500 Received: from adin149.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl ([79.184.195.149]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGaSE-0007gD-0c for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:43:18 -0500 Received: from home-lxsekn6jfu ([158.117.77.199] helo=home-lxsekn6jfu) by adin149.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1VEIQX-000XVP-pS for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:43:28 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:43:15 +0100 From: "eusebio Farmani" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (Windows/20070326) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: wegnielk Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 4.4 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 08e48e05374109708c00c6208b534009 Grow your manhood in your pants today http://www.iegafbaf.com/
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Jan 20 10:48:44 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGcPc-0004x9-Dy; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 10:48:44 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGcPb-0007NI-0E; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 10:48:44 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JGcGg-0007kz-HB for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 15:39:30 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JGcGd-0007kB-O3 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 15:39:29 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.106] (hlid.ogud.com [66.92.146.160]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0KFdC5j042002; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 10:39:14 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200801190134.m0J1Ywfh073667@drugs.dv.isc.org> References: <200801190134.m0J1Ywfh073667@drugs.dv.isc.org> Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 10:36:26 -0500 To: Mark Andrews From: Edward Lewis Subject: Re: capitalization was Re: AXFR "clarify" Cc: Edward Lewis , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 66.92.146.160 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 At 12:34 +1100 1/19/08, Mark Andrews wrote: > I said it was a general issue. People however worry about > it more with AXFR than with other queries as AXFR provides > a much larger set of compression targets. It gets realised > rather than being potential. In that case, it should be mentioned as something to think about when writing code but does not place any requirements on the AXFR mechanism. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 NeuStar Think glocally. Act confused. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Jan 20 11:18:28 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGcsO-0004Lt-Th; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:18:28 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGcsO-0007uC-2t; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:18:28 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JGcjj-000CYo-UC for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 16:09:31 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JGcjh-000CYH-1z for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 16:09:30 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.106] (hlid.ogud.com [66.92.146.160]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0KG9AAG042182; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:09:11 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <479161A3.9080305@ca.afilias.info> References: <200801180450.m0I4ofNA024582@drugs.dv.isc.org> <479161A3.9080305@ca.afilias.info> Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:04:09 -0500 To: Brian Dickson From: Edward Lewis Subject: Re: AXFR "clarify" Cc: Edward Lewis , Mark Andrews , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2857c5c041d6c02d7181d602c22822c8 At 21:34 -0500 1/18/08, Brian Dickson wrote: >Edward Lewis wrote: >> When it comes to tightening up a requirement like you mention, I think >> that we need to hear from more implementers that such a change is desired. >> >Such a change is desired. Specifically, what change? Before expecting that a change is going to be made because it is suggested, keep in mind "it had better be a gooood, really good change." >Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't matter what the deployed base >is, or the state of the software, or where or how it's used. In my opinion, the deployed base rules in this case. I don't see any consumer of DNS services (such as web site hosters, tld operators, home hobbyists) howling that they cannot locate DNS implementations that do AXFR. In my opinion, and why I am motivated to do this, is that it is the specification that is lacking. Keep in mind my concern is addressing RFPs and not writing a new implementation. The IETF is all about interoperability and I don't hear that this is lacking in the AXFR space. That is why, to me, the current code base rules. >Anyone doing any kind of implementation, for any purpose, of >RFC 1034/1035/1995/1996 has a chip in the game. Like me. >I vote for tightening up requirements. I don't think this is a a point of contention but I want to set expectations by at least revealing my interpretation of the situation. I am for tightening up the requirements in the sense that they reflect reality. I am not for raising the bar on functionality. >In 1034/1035, the language is "should" (lower case). At a minimum it >should be "SHOULD", and preferably "MUST". >(The irony of the case comparison between "should" and "SHOULD" is not >lost on me.) Updating the language is a good thing, as the IETF has evolved from an engineering organization to a standards body over time. >I see no reason that the language describing the behavior (recommending >against changing case on rdata) should be ignored, and the RFC text near that >language, even contemplates potential reasons for this. I think the rationale for, and the case against, compression has already been laid out in previous documents. Compression isn't an AXFR issue though, it's a general message processing issue. Lip service is all I would put towards it in the document. >Just like the data described in the protocols (like 822): >(IMHO) Maintainers of RFCs should be liberal in what they accept, and >strict in what they send. I don't believe that. What's true for code isn't true for prose. The purpose of an RFC is to provide necessary and sufficient information to allow multiple interoperable implementations. That doesn't mean liberal in what is accepted. It means to be clear on what has to be done and what is probably a pretty good idea unless the situation is unusual. >If you are updating an RFC, the worst thing you can do is weaken a >specification. In fact, it could/should be argued, that when the opportunity >to tighten up language *known* to be ambiguous, that it SHOULD be done. >RFCs do not get updated that often, and this RFC is rather important >to the health of the Internet. There are two ways to read "worst thing you can do is weaken a specification." I am not for strengthening the AXFR mechanism in the sense of making it more efficient, feature rich, etc. But I am for strengthening the definition so that it is clear what someone means by saying "please provide AXFR access to the zone data." What I am sensitive to is that the word "clarifications" has become a lightening rod. Clarifications to some mean just making the meaning of the base clearer. To some clarifications can include extensions that are assumed to have been in the original design. And so some clarifications can include feature creep. Once a word has become a lightening rid, I like to steer clear of it. >Having case preserved specifically on XFR, is something much more important >than any normal query/answer data. I don't think that it is as simple as that. I can paint a scenario in which an "ordinary" response's mashing of capitalization results in more stub resolvers getting "incorrectly" capitalized answers than the mashing done in an zone transfer. E.g., a lookup from a large consumer-serving ISP for a high-traffic on-line retainer will cause a cache entry that will get jillions of hits before it times out. There are some TLDs that won't get even a smidgen-of-a-jillion queries in the same time. This is why I say it's not particular to AXFR. And yes, I agree it is how you define and measure "importance." In the architectural hierarchy, AXFR comes before QUERY/RESPONSE. But in operations, QUERY/RESPONSE is always there, AXFR(and IXFR, NOTIFY) is not. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 NeuStar Think glocally. Act confused. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From Debi637@djurshytteby.dk Sun Jan 20 12:05:03 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGdbS-0005HZ-Tf for dnsext-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 12:05:02 -0500 Received: from [91.84.124.75] (helo=[91.84.124.75]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGdbR-0004D2-Ry for dnsext-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 12:05:02 -0500 Received: by 10.103.140.227 with SMTP id GetCTjCnAVSmd; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 17:05:02 -0000 (GMT) Received: by 192.168.70.170 with SMTP id HTOLUOWNQcUtbP.5248838466997; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 17:05:00 -0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <4A704F1A.D5226A83@djurshytteby.dk> Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 17:04:57 -0000 From: "Debi Spaulding" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (Windows/20070326) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: irmmaske Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 08e48e05374109708c00c6208b534009 Bang her hard and long, deeper and harder with gains from our product http://www.bnneoeg.com/
From jhhujk@naturewoodproducts.com Sun Jan 20 13:57:01 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGfLp-000106-QR; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:57:01 -0500 Received: from byx29.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl ([83.30.43.29] helo=b-qfw8dqgdl1hfg) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGfLo-0006Wa-MD; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:57:01 -0500 Received: from [83.30.43.29] by mail.naturewoodproducts.com; , 20 Jan 2008 19:55:39 +0100 Message-ID: <01c85b9e$6e648160$1d2b1e53@jhhujk> From: "Mamie Slaughter" To: Subject: Plane Cycle Date: , 20 Jan 2008 19:55:39 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Spam-Score: 2.7 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 2870a44b67ee17965ce5ad0177e150f4 You will be able to penetrate deeper, and harder, so your partner will experience greater pleasure http://rdsk.raoutoos.com From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Jan 20 14:47:15 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGg8R-0005DB-EH; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:47:15 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGg8O-0002qC-TC; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:47:15 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JGg0o-000HBw-9x for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 19:39:22 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [207.219.45.62] (helo=mail.libertyrms.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JGg0h-000H6F-S3 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 19:39:17 +0000 Received: from [10.1.7.90] (helo=[10.1.7.90]) by mail.libertyrms.com with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1JGg0g-00066d-GO; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:39:14 -0500 Message-ID: <4793A35A.5040507@ca.afilias.info> Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:39:06 -0500 From: Brian Dickson User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Edward Lewis CC: Mark Andrews , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: AXFR "clarify" References: <200801180450.m0I4ofNA024582@drugs.dv.isc.org> <479161A3.9080305@ca.afilias.info> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: briand@ca.afilias.info X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: b22590c27682ace61775ee7b453b40d3 Edward Lewis wrote: > At 21:34 -0500 1/18/08, Brian Dickson wrote: >> Edward Lewis wrote: > >>> When it comes to tightening up a requirement like you mention, I think >>> that we need to hear from more implementers that such a change is >>> desired. >>> >> Such a change is desired. > > Specifically, what change? Before expecting that a change is going to > be made because it is suggested, keep in mind "it had better be a > gooood, really good change." > The clarification being discussed in this thread. For example, language consistent with the following: "To clarify the intent of 1034/1035, which says that once data is in the domain name system, its case should be preserved. AXFR and IXFR are transfers *within* the domain name system, server-to-server, and as such, SHOULD preserve case." "This is contrasted with client-server (true client to caching resolver, or recursive resolver to server), where query and DNS data are compared in a case-insensitive manner, and the responses to queries may differ in case. Clients MUST handle answers which differ in case from queries." >> Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't matter what the deployed base >> is, or the state of the software, or where or how it's used. > > In my opinion, the deployed base rules in this case. I don't see any > consumer of DNS services (such as web site hosters, tld operators, > home hobbyists) howling that they cannot locate DNS implementations > that do AXFR. In my opinion, and why I am motivated to do this, is > that it is the specification that is lacking. Keep in mind my concern > is addressing RFPs and not writing a new implementation. > RFPs may be *your* concern, but the membership of the WG will vote your document up/down based on *their* concerns, if I understand how things work. IMHO, I believe that any clarification to an existing set of RFCs should reflect the general purpose of the WG, which is to produce RFCs which can be used by implementers. This MUST include new implementations, if the WG is "active", rather than "maintenance". And that is the case for this WG. > The IETF is all about interoperability and I don't hear that this is > lacking in the AXFR space. That is why, to me, the current code base > rules. > I believe that Mark Andrews has already expressed the need for addressing the need for case-sensitivity for AXFR, and that suggests an interoperability specifically on AXFR and IXFR. It is not possible to make a clarification on AXFR without addressing the interoperability related to IXFR. >> Anyone doing any kind of implementation, for any purpose, of >> RFC 1034/1035/1995/1996 has a chip in the game. Like me. >> I vote for tightening up requirements. > > I don't think this is a a point of contention but I want to set > expectations by at least revealing my interpretation of the > situation. I am for tightening up the requirements in the sense that > they reflect reality. I am not for raising the bar on functionality. > If language tightening improves interoperability, and nothing else, then I do not believe that adds functionality. >> I see no reason that the language describing the behavior (recommending >> against changing case on rdata) should be ignored, and the RFC text >> near that >> language, even contemplates potential reasons for this. > > I think the rationale for, and the case against, compression has > already been laid out in previous documents. Compression isn't an > AXFR issue though, it's a general message processing issue. Lip > service is all I would put towards it in the document. > I don't see how tightening language on *how* one should or should not do compression, changes the arguments about compression itself. The real question is, when should case differences be expected, and when should they not? A query of any type other than AXFR or IXFR, will include a domain name. The answer necessarily will return data which may differ only in case. The originator (who made the query) MUST handle that case issue, because the information regarding case is not know prior to making the query. However, for an IXFR, there is no data in the query, other than the parent zone. It should not be the case that case gets changed on zone data, and the *cost* of doing the comparison scale by the size of the data set. And most importantly, interoperability requires either that case is preserved, or that case mangling gets handled. Not specifying the requirement on case, makes the choice of these two ambiguous - but they are mutually exclusive. Regardless of which way it *gets* clarified, it *needs* to be clarified. >> Having case preserved specifically on XFR, is something much more >> important >> than any normal query/answer data. > > I don't think that it is as simple as that. > > I can paint a scenario in which an "ordinary" response's mashing of > capitalization results in more stub resolvers getting "incorrectly" > capitalized answers than the mashing done in an zone transfer. > > E.g., a lookup from a large consumer-serving ISP for a high-traffic > on-line retainer will cause a cache entry that will get jillions of > hits before it times out. There are some TLDs that won't get even a > smidgen-of-a-jillion queries in the same time. > > This is why I say it's not particular to AXFR. > Correct - but the client MUST handle the case difference (on non-AXFR or -IXFR) between the query and answer. Existing RFCs make this clear. So, there are two issues I see: * whether is is important to *clarify* that either case preservation must be done, or alternatively, may *not* be done (explicitly) * if so, which it is: that case preservation MUST be done; or that case preservation MAY NOT be done. Brian Dickson -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From shnaypxgim@andreamarchese.com Sun Jan 20 17:10:17 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGiMr-0001Zd-Kn for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 17:10:17 -0500 Received: from host173-79-dynamic.60-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it ([82.60.79.173] helo=host186-192-dynamic.27-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGiMr-0002Ev-0X for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 17:10:17 -0500 Received: from antonio-7ff5697 ([154.176.84.111] helo=antonio-7ff5697) by host186-192-dynamic.27-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1yPaZN-000TVM-Xl for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:10:48 +0100 Message-ID: <5DF9D331.17A88EE4@andreamarchese.com> Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:10:24 +0100 From: User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (Windows/20070326) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: shaylynn Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 4.5 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 08e48e05374109708c00c6208b534009 I love how I gained inches in just weeks, it was truly amazing http://www.jboaopag.com/
From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Jan 20 18:05:16 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGjE4-0000DH-Bb; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 18:05:16 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGjE3-0006Ne-7V; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 18:05:16 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JGj7C-000MzM-CU for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:58:10 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc] (helo=drugs.dv.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JGj78-000Myr-M5 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:58:08 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0KMvqrD074282; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 09:57:54 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200801202257.m0KMvqrD074282@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Edward Lewis Cc: Brian Dickson , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: AXFR "clarify" In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:04:09 CDT." Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 09:57:52 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 6ba8aaf827dcb437101951262f69b3de > At 21:34 -0500 1/18/08, Brian Dickson wrote: > >Edward Lewis wrote: > > >> When it comes to tightening up a requirement like you mention, I think > >> that we need to hear from more implementers that such a change is desired > . > >> > >Such a change is desired. > > Specifically, what change? Before expecting that a change is going > to be made because it is suggested, keep in mind "it had better be a > gooood, really good change." > > >Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't matter what the deployed base > >is, or the state of the software, or where or how it's used. > > In my opinion, the deployed base rules in this case. I don't see any > consumer of DNS services (such as web site hosters, tld operators, > home hobbyists) howling that they cannot locate DNS implementations > that do AXFR. In my opinion, and why I am motivated to do this, is > that it is the specification that is lacking. Keep in mind my > concern is addressing RFPs and not writing a new implementation. > > The IETF is all about interoperability and I don't hear that this is > lacking in the AXFR space. That is why, to me, the current code base > rules. Really? Users do notice the bugs in the AXFR implementations. The problem is that all of the *mostly* work. It's only in specific cirumstances where they don't work. By don't work I mean what's entered at one end of a AXFR/IXFR graph gets out the other end of a AXFR/IXFR graph. If you just have a single hop and don't have parent / child zones on the same servers it basically works for all implementations. Once you go beyond that you start to see the interactions occuring which shouldn't be occuring. > >Anyone doing any kind of implementation, for any purpose, of > >RFC 1034/1035/1995/1996 has a chip in the game. Like me. > >I vote for tightening up requirements. > > I don't think this is a a point of contention but I want to set > expectations by at least revealing my interpretation of the > situation. I am for tightening up the requirements in the sense that > they reflect reality. I am not for raising the bar on functionality. > > >In 1034/1035, the language is "should" (lower case). At a minimum it > >should be "SHOULD", and preferably "MUST". > >(The irony of the case comparison between "should" and "SHOULD" is not > >lost on me.) > > Updating the language is a good thing, as the IETF has evolved from > an engineering organization to a standards body over time. > > >I see no reason that the language describing the behavior (recommending > >against changing case on rdata) should be ignored, and the RFC text near tha > t > >language, even contemplates potential reasons for this. > > I think the rationale for, and the case against, compression has > already been laid out in previous documents. Compression isn't an > AXFR issue though, it's a general message processing issue. Lip > service is all I would put towards it in the document. It the case for doing complession in a case sensitive manner vs a case insensitive manner. Compress on its own is not bad it just has to be done correctly. Your comment above is a perfect example of why it needs to be in the document as you are missing the nuances of the issue. > >Just like the data described in the protocols (like 822): > >(IMHO) Maintainers of RFCs should be liberal in what they accept, and > >strict in what they send. > > I don't believe that. What's true for code isn't true for prose. > The purpose of an RFC is to provide necessary and sufficient > information to allow multiple interoperable implementations. That > doesn't mean liberal in what is accepted. It means to be clear on > what has to be done and what is probably a pretty good idea unless > the situation is unusual. > > >If you are updating an RFC, the worst thing you can do is weaken a > >specification. In fact, it could/should be argued, that when the opportunity > >to tighten up language *known* to be ambiguous, that it SHOULD be done. > >RFCs do not get updated that often, and this RFC is rather important > >to the health of the Internet. > > There are two ways to read "worst thing you can do is weaken a > specification." I am not for strengthening the AXFR mechanism in the > sense of making it more efficient, feature rich, etc. But I am for > strengthening the definition so that it is clear what someone means > by saying "please provide AXFR access to the zone data." I don't think anyone has ask for more feature. Just a tighting of the exisiting specification. > What I am sensitive to is that the word "clarifications" has become a > lightening rod. Clarifications to some mean just making the meaning > of the base clearer. To some clarifications can include extensions > that are assumed to have been in the original design. And so some > clarifications can include feature creep. Once a word has become a > lightening rid, I like to steer clear of it. > > >Having case preserved specifically on XFR, is something much more important > >than any normal query/answer data. > > I don't think that it is as simple as that. > > I can paint a scenario in which an "ordinary" response's mashing of > capitalization results in more stub resolvers getting "incorrectly" > capitalized answers than the mashing done in an zone transfer. > > E.g., a lookup from a large consumer-serving ISP for a high-traffic > on-line retainer will cause a cache entry that will get jillions of > hits before it times out. There are some TLDs that won't get even a > smidgen-of-a-jillion queries in the same time. People care about what their host is called. In a reverse lookup there is almost zero probability that you will find the hostname ends in ARPA. When you are transfering a reverse zone there is almost 100% probability that compression will be used on the PTR records. This results in individual queries no compression, case preserved. Axfr compression used case insensitively, case potentially not preserved. Axfr compression used case sensitively, case preserved. > This is why I say it's not particular to AXFR. No one says it is. But we don't want to wait for the document that clarifies compression to come out. Document it as a issue here and now. > And yes, I agree it is how you define and measure "importance." In > the architectural hierarchy, AXFR comes before QUERY/RESPONSE. But > in operations, QUERY/RESPONSE is always there, AXFR(and IXFR, NOTIFY) > is not. > > -- > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 > NeuStar > > Think glocally. Act confused. -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Jan 20 20:44:16 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGlhw-0006cA-MG; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 20:44:16 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGlhw-00015I-8y; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 20:44:16 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JGlbq-000KjG-0k for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 01:37:58 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc] (helo=drugs.dv.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JGlbm-000Kie-QW for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 01:37:56 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0L1blZ9025290; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 12:37:48 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200801210137.m0L1blZ9025290@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Edward Lewis Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: capitalization was Re: AXFR "clarify" In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 20 Jan 2008 10:36:26 CDT." Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 12:37:47 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca > At 12:34 +1100 1/19/08, Mark Andrews wrote: > > > I said it was a general issue. People however worry about > > it more with AXFR than with other queries as AXFR provides > > a much larger set of compression targets. It gets realised > > rather than being potential. > > In that case, it should be mentioned as something to think about when > writing code but does not place any requirements on the AXFR > mechanism. We are in this mess because people didn't apply the general requirements of RFC 1034 to AXFR. * message id's matching is a general requirement. * setting flag bits correctly is a general requirement. * setting rcode correctly is a general requirement. * that the answer is in the answer section and not the additional or authority sections is a general requirement. * not mixing zone content is a general requirement. * preserving case is a general requirement. * multiple records that compare equal are treated as a single record. If we don't want to re-iterate general requirement then we are done. The only thing that is special about AXFR is that it is restricted to a reliable streaming protocol (e.g. TCP) and that because there wasn't a general mechanism for splitting answers over multiple DNS messages a query specific framing method was required to identify when the AXFR was complete (SOA at start and end). Strictly speaking only the final SOA is needed. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From akstcadbsienamnsdgs@adbsiena.it Mon Jan 21 01:32:46 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGqD8-0008HD-Go; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 01:32:46 -0500 Received: from [59.5.69.107] (helo=gsocy888p08gbd3.kornet) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGqD7-0003Jf-Ct; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 01:32:46 -0500 Received: from [59.5.69.107] by mail.adbsiena.it; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 15:42:20 +0900 Message-ID: <01c85c44$35634990$6b45053b@akstcadbsienamnsdgs> From: "Cristina Murdock" To: <6lowpan-bounces@lists.ietf.org> Subject: toshi Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 15:42:20 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="us-ascii"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 X-Spam-Score: 1.2 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 6d62ab47271805379d7172ee693a45db get meds at low price http://www.bestpharmsparent.com From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 21 04:38:07 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGt6U-0000gx-Ux; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 04:38:06 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGt6U-0008MU-Db; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 04:38:06 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JGsyV-000BHp-Tu for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 09:29:51 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,NO_RELAYS autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:7b8:206:1::1] (helo=open.nlnetlabs.nl) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JGsyS-000BHE-Dn for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 09:29:50 +0000 Received: from gary.nlnetlabs.nl (gary.nlnetlabs.nl [IPv6:2001:7b8:206:1:216:76ff:feb8:1853]) by open.nlnetlabs.nl (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0L9ThRB007005 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:29:43 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from wouter@nlnetlabs.nl) Message-ID: <47946607.9020500@nlnetlabs.nl> Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:29:43 +0100 From: Wouter Wijngaards User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071115) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: AXFR "clarify" References: <200801180450.m0I4ofNA024582@drugs.dv.isc.org> <479161A3.9080305@ca.afilias.info> <4793A35A.5040507@ca.afilias.info> In-Reply-To: <4793A35A.5040507@ca.afilias.info> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (open.nlnetlabs.nl [IPv6:2001:7b8:206:1::53]); Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:29:43 +0100 (CET) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi, As an implementor of AXFR nameservers, I think it's fine to completely specify the AXFR (and or IXFR) protocol element. I like the idea (from Mark) to clean up the header specification for followup messages, and implementations can then conform to that on the sending side. Things like ID bits, flags. On the reading side those are still not trustworthy. About case preservation. DNS compares names case insensitively. Case gets lost due to compression. Clients have to ignore case in results. We choose to completely remove case (downcase), for ease and simplicity of implementation. Storing the case-preserved names would mean double the memory use for the names. We have no case-preservation requests from clients. AXFR seems to work well. I never understood the TCP requirement, as an EDNS packet could easily be large enough to contain the entire response, especially all those small website-only zones. (if it is too small, you set the TC bit). For reliability we have TSIG now. I think it is not something that can be changed, or useful in particular, I just think it is not orthogonal. Apart from AXFR, IXFR, people use scp and rsync for zone transfer. The IXFR spec contains a protocol element that allows you to attach to the IXFR UDP message (some of) the data that changed, sort of like a dynamic-update message but differently. My implementation ignores it; only handles attached 'SOA' data and looks at the serial number. It is a protocol element to examine carefully if you include IXFR in your document. Best regards, ~ Wouter -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHlGYHkDLqNwOhpPgRAkEHAJ0U+ww1sEF65wtIRO/Fn70DjLR+4ACgg+kl ux1+2TDpnF/bwHMQdgjqWVs= =wYxZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From aittnomevyot@admin-login.com Mon Jan 21 05:03:24 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGtUy-0008Qn-5q for dnsext-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 05:03:24 -0500 Received: from [189.71.237.5] (helo=18971227040.user.veloxzone.com.br) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGtUv-0000B7-Fn for dnsext-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 05:03:22 -0500 Received: from usuario-9a9c35c ([132.129.55.92]:31283 "EHLO usuario-9a9c35c" smtp-auth: TLS-CIPHER: TLS-PEER-CN1: ) by 18971227040.user.veloxzone.com.br with ESMTP id S22CTUYLFFBJQAEI (ORCPT ); Mon, 21 Jan 2008 07:03:47 -0300 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 07:03:29 -0300 From: User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (Windows/20070326) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: akalake Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 08e48e05374109708c00c6208b534009 She moaned so loud when she came, that it woke the neighbours up http://talgaphh.com/
From badgeredm@i-broadcaster.com Mon Jan 21 07:07:21 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGvQv-0002jy-1x for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 07:07:21 -0500 Received: from [122.167.152.150] (helo=ABTS-KK-Dynamic-150.152.167.122.airtelbroadband.in) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGvQt-0003iX-M9 for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 07:07:20 -0500 Received: from [122.167.152.150] by chicagoserver.com; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 17:37:19 +0530 From: "Clay Hare" To: Subject: RaySignificantShlong Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 17:37:19 +0530 Message-ID: <01c85c54$4550f180$9698a77a@badgeredm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Importance: Normal X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 0f1ff0b0158b41ac6b9548d0972cdd31 Queen-sizeFuckstickBernie http://www.manyfunerals.com From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 21 08:06:40 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGwMK-00069X-4E; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 08:06:40 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGwMJ-0004fk-C9; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 08:06:40 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JGwFD-000LWc-Hh for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 12:59:19 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc] (helo=drugs.dv.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JGwFA-000LWD-US for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 12:59:18 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0LCx3aI014766; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 23:59:05 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200801211259.m0LCx3aI014766@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Wouter Wijngaards Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: AXFR "clarify" In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:29:43 BST." <47946607.9020500@nlnetlabs.nl> Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 23:59:03 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 > AXFR seems to work well. I never understood the TCP requirement, as an > EDNS packet could easily be large enough to contain the entire response, > especially all those small website-only zones. (if it is too small, you > set the TC bit). For reliability we have TSIG now. I think it is not > something that can be changed, or useful in particular, I just think it > is not orthogonal. When RFC 1034 was written many UDP implementations did not generate UDP checksums. TCP checksums were not optional. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 21 10:30:46 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGybm-00062z-NR; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:30:46 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGybm-00010C-BA; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:30:46 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JGyTF-000I5m-MO for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 15:21:57 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JGyTC-000I5E-UP for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 15:21:56 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.106] (hlid.ogud.com [66.92.146.160]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0LFLjfV051793; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:21:45 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 09:56:03 -0500 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Edward Lewis Subject: AXFR message id's Cc: ed.lewis@neustar.biz Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 66.92.146.160 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 There's a call to require that all responses to an AXFR query carry the same message ID. That's sensible but here is what was in the -05 version of the document on this matter. " ...It SHOULD check the ID of the first message received and abort the transfer if it does not match the ID of the request. The ID SHOULD be ignored in subsequent messages, and fields other than RCODE and ID SHOULD be ignored in all messages, to ensure interoperability with certain older implementations which transmit incorrect or arbitrary values in these fields." It's been more than 5 years since that was written. Are the certain older implementations still in operational use (in a manner in which interoperability is an issue)? -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 NeuStar Think glocally. Act confused. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 21 10:55:42 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGyzu-0002dA-Ry; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:55:42 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGyzt-0001he-3l; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:55:42 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JGyrb-000LCi-RO for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 15:47:07 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [198.32.6.68] (helo=vacation.karoshi.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JGyrZ-000LCL-Cj for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 15:47:06 +0000 Received: from karoshi.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by vacation.karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id m0LFgx84026417; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 15:42:59 GMT Received: (from bmanning@localhost) by karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id m0LFgxUV026416; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 15:42:59 GMT Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 15:42:59 +0000 From: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com To: Wouter Wijngaards Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: AXFR "clarify" Message-ID: <20080121154259.GB26279@vacation.karoshi.com.> References: <200801180450.m0I4ofNA024582@drugs.dv.isc.org> <479161A3.9080305@ca.afilias.info> <4793A35A.5040507@ca.afilias.info> <47946607.9020500@nlnetlabs.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <47946607.9020500@nlnetlabs.nl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 On Mon, Jan 21, 2008 at 10:29:43AM +0100, Wouter Wijngaards wrote: > > Apart from AXFR, IXFR, people use scp and rsync for zone transfer. and ftp, smtp, and rcp.... > Best regards, > ~ Wouter -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 21 11:16:29 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGzK1-00084E-Cu; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 11:16:29 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGzJz-0002GP-64; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 11:16:29 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JGzBz-000NRp-Hx for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:08:11 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::1] (helo=sa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JGzBx-000NRN-2E for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:08:10 +0000 Received: from sa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8AF01142F; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:08:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@sa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: Mark Andrews cc: Wouter Wijngaards , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: AXFR "clarify" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 21 Jan 2008 23:59:03 +1100." <200801211259.m0LCx3aI014766@drugs.dv.isc.org> References: <200801211259.m0LCx3aI014766@drugs.dv.isc.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.0.2; nmh 1.0.4; GNU Emacs 21.3.1 Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:08:08 +0000 Message-ID: <36743.1200931688@sa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 > When RFC 1034 was written many UDP implementations did not > generate UDP checksums. TCP checksums were not optional. so, edns should have added an end-to-end application layer checksum? damn. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From a-a-a-7-22-85@adelfors.fhsk.se Mon Jan 21 11:52:50 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGztC-00061O-FX; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 11:52:50 -0500 Received: from [88.227.52.174] (helo=[88.227.52.174]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGztB-0006c6-AV; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 11:52:50 -0500 Received: from [88.227.52.174] by mail.adelfors.fhsk.se; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 19:25:55 +0200 From: "Laura Anaya" To: Subject: What are you up to? 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From akstcalsaceonlinemnsdgs@alsaceonline.com Mon Jan 21 13:12:15 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JH182-0002bZ-QJ; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 13:12:14 -0500 Received: from [86.56.31.241] (helo=server) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JH181-00023l-DK; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 13:12:14 -0500 Received: from [86.56.31.241] by smtp.calixo.net; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 19:21:53 +0100 Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 19:21:53 +0100 From: "Gerard Gomez" X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.62.03) Home Reply-To: akstcalsaceonlinemnsdgs@alsaceonline.com X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <206509593.22564501631748@alsaceonline.com> To: 6lowpan-bounces@lists.ietf.org Subject: breaks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 01485d64dfa90b45a74269b3ca9d5574 bring your manhood back http://reenuyes.com From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 21 15:17:15 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JH351-0003FX-Rm; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 15:17:15 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JH34z-0003jC-Ip; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 15:17:15 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JH2oc-00012e-RW for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 20:00:18 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [207.219.45.62] (helo=mail.libertyrms.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JH2oZ-00010p-Rm for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 20:00:17 +0000 Received: from [10.1.7.90] (helo=[10.1.7.90]) by mail.libertyrms.com with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1JH2oU-0003UU-Dd; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 15:00:10 -0500 Message-ID: <4794F9C0.6000803@ca.afilias.info> Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 15:00:00 -0500 From: Brian Dickson User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wouter Wijngaards CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: AXFR "clarify" References: <200801180450.m0I4ofNA024582@drugs.dv.isc.org> <479161A3.9080305@ca.afilias.info> <4793A35A.5040507@ca.afilias.info> <47946607.9020500@nlnetlabs.nl> In-Reply-To: <47946607.9020500@nlnetlabs.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: briand@ca.afilias.info X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: cd26b070c2577ac175cd3a6d878c6248 Wouter Wijngaards wrote: > Hi, > > As an implementor of AXFR nameservers, I think it's fine to completely > specify the AXFR (and or IXFR) protocol element. > > In case it wasn't clear from my earlier comments in the thread: +1 from me, too. > I like the idea (from Mark) to clean up the header specification for > followup messages, and implementations can then conform to that on the > sending side. Things like ID bits, flags. On the reading side those are > still not trustworthy. > Also +1. I think this helps provide context to where the need is strongest. The most important issue is what the sender (of an AXFR) does, or more specifically, that this be very clearly specified. What the receiver does with an AXFR or IXFR is less important, *except* in the case where the receiver is also a sender. > About case preservation. [snip] > We choose to completely remove case (downcase), for ease and simplicity of > implementation. Storing the case-preserved names would mean double the > memory use for the names. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the latest version of NSD only supports IXFR as a receiver, not as a sender, correct? (For AXFR it supports both.) As for storing case: There are certainly implementation tricks that can reduce the impact of being able to reconstitute case sensitivity for doing AXFR. Those are generally space/time trade-offs: more computation needs to be done, but less memory gets used. For example: Track the case *changes* that occur, using one bit per byte. Store the modified value, and store a one-bit value in a bit vector indicating whether the case was changed. This allows reasonably efficient storage and reasonably fast reconstitution of case. E.g. : "AbcDefgH" -> "abcdefgh", plus 0b10010001 (0x91) as an unsigned char. Have a fixed 256-element array of 8-byte strings, representing the corresponding byte values to "OR" in (or XOR, whatever your preference is), to avoid the binary arithmetic on reconstitution. Do a string-wise OR (or XOR) between the value stored, "abcdefgh", and the array element at subscript 0x91, 0x3000003000000030 (I think!). The only times the bit vector would be used would be at AXFR or IXFR time, sending and receiving of either. This is not performance impacting to the main lookup threads, answering normal queries. The memory footprint cost is 1/8th, 12.5%, much better than double. Thoughts? Brian Dickson -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 21 19:26:46 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JH6yU-0007R6-4O; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 19:26:46 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JH6yT-0002Tz-ON; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 19:26:46 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JH6qp-0003ou-DJ for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 00:18:51 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc] (helo=drugs.dv.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JH6qm-0003oT-Mp for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 00:18:50 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0M0IbbK062575; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 11:18:38 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200801220018.m0M0IbbK062575@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Wouter Wijngaards Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: AXFR "clarify" In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:29:43 BST." <47946607.9020500@nlnetlabs.nl> Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 11:18:37 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hi, > > As an implementor of AXFR nameservers, I think it's fine to completely > specify the AXFR (and or IXFR) protocol element. > > I like the idea (from Mark) to clean up the header specification for > followup messages, and implementations can then conform to that on the > sending side. Things like ID bits, flags. On the reading side those are > still not trustworthy. When a slave is first configured it assumes the headers will remain sane after a initial check. If it detects that the header values change between messages it rejects the transfer. The slave operator the marks the master as broken and informs the masters operator. Alternatively the slave operator could just refuse to accept transfers from that master. That master would then not be a candidate for anything that requires differentiation of answer streams. One thing we don't have is the ability to signal that a transfer is being aborted other than closing the connection. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 21 21:34:25 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JH8y1-0002f0-CA; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 21:34:25 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JH8y0-000543-U0; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 21:34:25 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JH8sY-000FXN-Ud for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 02:28:46 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [208.218.130.12] (helo=gis.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JH8sW-000FX1-Hi for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 02:28:45 +0000 Received: from [10.10.10.100] ([63.209.227.203]) by mx04.gis.net; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 21:28:34 -0500 Message-ID: <479554D2.1010809@gis.net> Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 21:28:34 -0500 From: Danny Mayer Reply-To: mayer@gis.net User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Andrews CC: Wouter Wijngaards , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: AXFR "clarify" References: <200801211259.m0LCx3aI014766@drugs.dv.isc.org> In-Reply-To: <200801211259.m0LCx3aI014766@drugs.dv.isc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Mark Andrews wrote: >> AXFR seems to work well. I never understood the TCP requirement, as an >> EDNS packet could easily be large enough to contain the entire response, >> especially all those small website-only zones. (if it is too small, you >> set the TC bit). For reliability we have TSIG now. I think it is not >> something that can be changed, or useful in particular, I just think it >> is not orthogonal. > > When RFC 1034 was written many UDP implementations did not > generate UDP checksums. TCP checksums were not optional. > > Mark For that matter when RFC 1034 was written, EDNS did not exist either. Danny -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 21 22:02:18 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JH9P0-0002V1-F2; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 22:02:18 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JH9Oy-0005kx-Px; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 22:02:18 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JH9L3-000In7-Ey for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 02:58:13 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [198.32.6.68] (helo=vacation.karoshi.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JH9L0-000Ij0-VG for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 02:58:12 +0000 Received: from karoshi.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by vacation.karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id m0M2rk84000556; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 02:53:46 GMT Received: (from bmanning@localhost) by karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id m0M2rjsV000555; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 02:53:45 GMT Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 02:53:45 +0000 From: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com To: Danny Mayer Cc: Mark Andrews , Wouter Wijngaards , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: AXFR "clarify" Message-ID: <20080122025345.GA546@vacation.karoshi.com.> References: <200801211259.m0LCx3aI014766@drugs.dv.isc.org> <479554D2.1010809@gis.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <479554D2.1010809@gis.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 On Mon, Jan 21, 2008 at 09:28:34PM -0500, Danny Mayer wrote: > Mark Andrews wrote: > >>AXFR seems to work well. I never understood the TCP requirement, as an > >>EDNS packet could easily be large enough to contain the entire response, > >>especially all those small website-only zones. (if it is too small, you > >>set the TC bit). For reliability we have TSIG now. I think it is not > >>something that can be changed, or useful in particular, I just think it > >>is not orthogonal. > > > > When RFC 1034 was written many UDP implementations did not > > generate UDP checksums. TCP checksums were not optional. > > > > Mark > > For that matter when RFC 1034 was written, EDNS did not exist either. na... it existed, just not written down. :) > > Danny > > -- > to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with > the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. > archive: -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From akstcamandatooheymnsdgs@amandatoohey.com Mon Jan 21 22:33:47 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JH9tT-0007vr-J7; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 22:33:47 -0500 Received: from [220.91.59.247] (helo=your-83l36r7ni2) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JH9tS-0003bx-Eu; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 22:33:47 -0500 Received: from [220.91.59.247] by mailwash18.pair.com; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:43:28 +0900 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:43:28 +0900 From: "Lorie Hager" X-Mailer: The Bat! (v2.10) Educational Reply-To: akstcamandatooheymnsdgs@amandatoohey.com X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <213970895.39921957914948@amandatoohey.com> To: 6lowpan-bounces@lists.ietf.org Subject: Re: who are free to come MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 01485d64dfa90b45a74269b3ca9d5574 Our Stock of Med s are all onsale Have a look now http://heavyclass.com From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 22 00:17:32 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHBVs-0002Bm-2t; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 00:17:32 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHBVq-0007gv-KG; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 00:17:32 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHBPQ-0004qD-O0 for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 05:10:52 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, USER_IN_ALL_SPAM_TO autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [130.105.36.66] (helo=cirrus.av8.net) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHBPN-0004pr-OH for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 05:10:51 +0000 Received: from [130.105.12.10] ([130.105.12.10]) (authenticated bits=0) by cirrus.av8.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m0M5AjvY011550 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Tue, 22 Jan 2008 00:10:46 -0500 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 00:10:44 -0500 (EST) From: Dean Anderson X-X-Sender: dean@citation2.av8.net To: Edward Lewis cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, Subject: Re: AXFR "clarify" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 202a3ece0492a8c7e7c8672d5214398f On Thu, 17 Jan 2008, Edward Lewis wrote: > Here's a work topic I'd like to get moving, something that got > stalled almost 5 years ago. I agree that AXFR clarification is an important subject. The old draft indeed gives clues as to the ambiguities, but its contents are completely bogus. The AXFR protocol should be clarified as widely implemented, not as it was altered by the Bind companies in 2000-2002. > With the permission of the chair and working group, I'd like to take > stab at rewriting the draft, in the spirit of the wildcard "clarify" > document. Short version: No offense to Ed, but I'd be gravely concerned about having anyone from UltraDNS/Neustar, ISC or Nominum involved in producing this document. New author, please. Long version: There were many improprieties involving this document and the so-called "Bind companies" (ISC, UltraDNS, Nominum) and, Randy Bush, et al. Neustar/UltraDNS was one of the so-called "bind companies" involving Paul Vixie's and Rodney Joffe's joint combined business interests. [I only recently learned that Vixie and Joffe were partners in a commercial bulk email operation since about (at least) 1999. At this time, Vixie was also be running the MAPS blacklist blocking commercial bulk emailers competing with Whitehat. While Vixie originally told the community that MAPS was non-profit, this charade was abandoned in 2002 when MAPS announced it was "for-profit".] Indeed, I frequently cite the AXFR-clarify events of 2002 as an example of an improper effort by ISC to influence the community with improper activities. And just recently (this July, 2007) Paul Vixie said he opposed the document in 2002: http://lists.arin.net/pipermail/ppml/2007-July/007985.html "it wasn't my clarification. i never supported the draft since RFC 1034 was quite clear on the matter as far as i was concerned. which is, i think, what IESG ruled during last call. if some other RFC has amended 1034 to cause BIND's behaviour to be noncompliant, please point it out. i can't and won't try to imagine what scheme you thought this was part of, or what success or failure of that scheme would have meant to you." I've been meaning to put up a web page on the events of AXFR clarify. To briefly recount the events for those newcomers: In about 2000, a draft was submitted to the DNSEXT WG. The working group was assured that there is no wire change in the document. The WG was assured that this is just clarifying something that was vague in the AXFR protocol. These assurances turned out to be false. There were lots of process shenanigans to rush the document without a proper review, including a new "SHORT last call", in 2001. This document has a lot of Bernstein's substantial objections: http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2001/msg00549.html It shows that there is a wire change to the protocol, and gives a timeline of events to that point. Then, in 2002, messages from Dr. Dan Bernstein mysteriously began failing to get to the list. Randy Bush, then WG Chair, repeatedly published Dr. Bernstein's unsubsription address to the mailing list, and used an old version of majordomo that was susceptible to forged unsubscriptions. Email messages from Bernstein to the list were improperly delayed or even deleted as a "non-subscriber": http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2002/msg01977.html "P.S. Out of my twelve messages, the five that were silently discarded are exactly the five that I would pick if I were a censor trying to bias the DNSEXT decisions in favor of the BIND company. Coincidence, right? "P.P.S. Bush's mailing-list software doesn't cryptographically confirm unsubscription requests. I kept my subscription address private until Bush revealed it a few days ago. I'm working on obtaining a subscription through an address that Bush doesn't know is connected to me. [John Levine, a partipant in DNSEXT at that time, recently told people that unconfirmed unsubscriptions have never been a problem. Levine is/was also a Board Member of (investor in?) Joffe and Vixie's Whitehat.com commercial bulk email operation. Levine is also chair of the Anti Spam Research Group (ASRG). More on Levine at http://www.av8.net/IETF-watch/People/JohnLevine/index.html] Numerous other bad things followed, including a challenged consensus call approving the document. (Look for subjects with "fraudulent consensus call" subjects in Namedroppers archives around 2003) The scheme worked as follows: 1. Bind 9 has code to check for the "old" AXFR scheme, but recognizes other "clarified" servers. When transferring to Bind 9 (and "clarify" servers, it uses a different AXFR protocol, the one documented in AXFR clarify. There is switch code in Bind to detect when to do this. [Presumably, there is/was similar code on Nominum and UltraDNS servers, but I don't have access to their source code.] 2. So next, someone (Nominum) proposes a clarification to the AXFR protocol definition, and misleads the WG to think that it has no effect on the wire protocol, and no effect on other implementations. Anyone who checks Bind _operation_ (as NANOG did at the time), notices no problem with AXFR interoperation. 3. Those who know what is coming next (the so-called "bind companies": ISC, Nominum, UltraDNS) can each change their code to check for "clarify"/"no clarify". 4. After the IESG approves the new clarified standard, the Bind companies can then remove the code to check for old AXFR protocol. Once that is done, AXFR breaks with other vendors DNS servers. Anyone who checks the documents, says Bind complies with the clarification, and other servers don't comply with the standard. Too bad for them. 5. The bind companies can now say those other vendors just weren't reading the standards properly and weren't compatible with the AXFR protocol. Which is technically true, but not quite honest. 6. And the so-called "bind companies" clean up the DNS nameservice market. The scheme was interrupted at step 4 by Dr. Bernstein and, to a small extent, myself. Retaliation followed on me, too. Proof of the scheme can found in the changes to Bind 9 code. If there was no wire change necessary, then Bind 9 would not require a change. Conversely, changing Bind 9 proves that ISC, etc knew of the wire change and deceived the WG. At one point, Mark Andrews of ISC asserted that AXFR needed to be changed for IXFR. However, this claim doesn't stand examination: No such change is necessary for IXFR, and a modified AXFR wire protocol then wouldn't be compliant with existing implementations of AXFR. If truly necessary, a standards action would be needed to change the AXFR protocol for IXFR, with all the incumbent difficulties and transition, etc. Mark Andrew's claim also contradicts the assurance that no wire change was present in the AXFR clarify draft. If no wire protocol change is present in the document, it can't be the necessary justification. So, I think we need to review this document with great care, and select the authors very carefully. --Dean -- Av8 Internet Prepared to pay a premium for better service? www.av8.net faster, more reliable, better service 617 344 9000 -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 22 00:36:45 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHBoS-0000XJ-NA; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 00:36:45 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHBoS-0008N0-EV; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 00:36:44 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHBki-0006jZ-0R for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 05:32:52 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00, USER_IN_ALL_SPAM_TO autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::1] (helo=sa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHBke-0006j8-T7 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 05:32:49 +0000 Received: from sa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B00A11439; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 05:32:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@sa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: Dean Anderson cc: Edward Lewis , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, iesg@ietf.org Subject: Re: AXFR "clarify" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 22 Jan 2008 00:10:44 EST." References: X-Mailer: MH-E 8.0.2; nmh 1.0.4; GNU Emacs 21.3.1 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 05:32:48 +0000 Message-ID: <75845.1200979968@sa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea this is a load of rubbish. and, old rubbish at that. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 22 03:31:19 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHEXP-0007Nx-3q; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 03:31:19 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHEXO-0002RY-8G; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 03:31:19 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHEQO-000Lyz-7y for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 08:24:04 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,NO_RELAYS autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:7b8:206:1::1] (helo=open.nlnetlabs.nl) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHEQK-000LyQ-Pq for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 08:24:02 +0000 Received: from gary.nlnetlabs.nl (gary.nlnetlabs.nl [IPv6:2001:7b8:206:1:216:76ff:feb8:1853]) by open.nlnetlabs.nl (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0M8Nrc1052009; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 09:23:54 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from wouter@nlnetlabs.nl) Message-ID: <4795A819.2070908@nlnetlabs.nl> Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 09:23:53 +0100 From: Wouter Wijngaards User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071115) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Dickson CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: AXFR "clarify" References: <200801180450.m0I4ofNA024582@drugs.dv.isc.org> <479161A3.9080305@ca.afilias.info> <4793A35A.5040507@ca.afilias.info> <47946607.9020500@nlnetlabs.nl> <4794F9C0.6000803@ca.afilias.info> In-Reply-To: <4794F9C0.6000803@ca.afilias.info> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (open.nlnetlabs.nl [IPv6:2001:7b8:206:1::53]); Tue, 22 Jan 2008 09:23:54 +0100 (CET) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Brian Dickson wrote: | What the receiver does with an AXFR or IXFR is less important, | *except* in the case where the receiver is also a sender. Well the receiver has to be compatible with the old implementations. | Correct me if I'm wrong, but the latest version of NSD only supports IXFR | as a receiver, not as a sender, correct? (For AXFR it supports both.) Yes. We could support the IXFR fallback case where the IXFR query gets an AXFR response, and although this would give 'to the letter conformance', it is not what you would want. | As for storing case: | The memory footprint cost is 1/8th, 12.5%, much better than double. Smart idea. 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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 22 07:45:16 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHIVA-000890-KA; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 07:45:16 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHIV9-0008DN-Tl; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 07:45:16 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHIO7-000LzJ-VA for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:37:59 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:7b8:206:1:0:1234:be21:e31e] (helo=bert.secret-wg.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHIO5-000Lyr-42 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:37:58 +0000 Received: from Miffy.lan (a82-95-132-144.adsl.xs4all.nl [82.95.132.144]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by bert.secret-wg.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id ADB1BB854; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:37:55 +0100 (CET) Cc: Edward Lewis , IETF DNSEXT WG Message-Id: <8759F73E-564A-4743-BDB1-62512CC38509@NLnetLabs.nl> From: "Olaf M. Kolkman" To: Dean Anderson In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary="Apple-Mail-13--640024137" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) Subject: Re: AXFR "clarify" Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:37:55 +0100 References: X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail d50 (Leopard) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.915) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 73734d43604d52d23b3eba644a169745 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --Apple-Mail-13--640024137 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Jan 22, 2008, at 6:10 AM, Dean Anderson wrote: > On Thu, 17 Jan 2008, Edward Lewis wrote: > >> Here's a work topic I'd like to get moving, something that got >> stalled almost 5 years ago. > > I agree that AXFR clarification is an important subject. > > The old draft indeed gives clues as to the ambiguities, but its > contents > are completely bogus. The AXFR protocol should be clarified as widely > implemented, not as it was altered by the Bind companies in 2000-2002. > >> With the permission of the chair and working group, I'd like to take >> stab at rewriting the draft, in the spirit of the wildcard "clarify" >> document. > > Short version: > > No offense to Ed, but I'd be gravely concerned about having anyone > from > UltraDNS/Neustar, ISC or Nominum involved in producing this document. > New author, please. [dropped the IESG, this seems to me a WG issue] Dear Dean, I am not very judgmental and if I were to judge people than that would be on their arguments, merits and mistakes, not by their affiliation. I would hope that if we follow a structured method it would be clear that the document is the output of the working group and not any-one- particular person, organization, or company. The method I have in mind is the one where technical issues are raised, tracked, and decided upon, one-by-one by rough consensus in the working group. An issue tracker is used to make sure we are not re spinning issues. With that method the editor clearly serves the working group and although the pen-holder can steer by proposing the initial text, the WG decides. I trust Ed with the pen since I've seen him serve the working group in an fair, competent and neutral way. Having said that, when following the above method I would actually trust everybody with the pen. --Olaf namedropper ----------------------------------------------------------- Olaf M. Kolkman NLnet Labs http://www.nlnetlabs.nl/ --Apple-Mail-13--640024137 content-type: application/pgp-signature; x-mac-type=70674453; name=PGP.sig content-description: This is a digitally signed message part content-disposition: inline; filename=PGP.sig content-transfer-encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (Darwin) Comment: This message is locally signed. iD8DBQFHleOjtN/ca3YJIocRAthIAJ9FEygRbUwds92sN8wCJf3bynx1dQCeJ2Lv mfChXhvGW0xg7BySkqQ7jqw= =B+E3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail-13--640024137-- -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 22 08:39:13 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHJLN-0004b1-4W; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 08:39:13 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHJLL-0000sP-Nw; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 08:39:13 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHJGP-0002zJ-Fz for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:34:05 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHJGM-0002yi-NM for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:34:04 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.106] (hlid.ogud.com [66.92.146.160]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0MDXpIQ075045; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 08:33:52 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 08:29:11 -0500 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Edward Lewis Subject: AXFR draft on the way Cc: ed.lewis@neustar.biz Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 66.92.146.160 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a I submitted a -06 of the document last night, I had to do the "manual" submission for some reason, which says "might take two working days." There were some nits on it, so it's not perfect as is, I have no delusion it is headed "straight to last call." I used the file name as before but changed the title to avoid the debate over clarifications. Included are sections on case preservation, AXFR over UDP (by writing it out we may see a desire to kill it) and words on backwards compatibility. I hope to see this document get done. With so many years of experience with AXFR, there probably isn't a lot of time needed to noodle over concepts - but that doesn't excuse trying to feed the document through the system quickly. This is about words and it may take time to get the words right. But it's only about the words. In the process of researching and writing this draft I noticed that the Forgery draft has expired. I would hope to reference that in this document, provided such a reference won't hold up publication. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 NeuStar Think glocally. Act confused. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 22 12:24:30 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHMrN-0004jk-FE; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:24:30 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHMrL-0001d7-SW; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:24:29 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHMiO-0001Zn-9e for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:15:12 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-202.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, USER_IN_ALL_SPAM_TO,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [156.154.24.139] (helo=ns4.neustar.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHMiH-0001YB-Ck for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:15:10 +0000 Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns4.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A8692AC63; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:15:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JHMiE-00022Y-1v; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:15:02 -0500 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt Message-Id: Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:15:02 -0500 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 14582b0692e7f70ce7111d04db3781c8 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the DNS Extensions Working Group of the IETF. Title : DNS Zone Transfer Protocol (AXFR) Author(s) : A. Gustafsson Filename : draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt Pages : 0 Date : 2008-1-22 The Domain Name System standard facilities for maintaining coherent servers for a zone consist of three elements. The Authoritative Transfer (AXFR) is defined in RFC 1034 and RFC 1035. The Incremental Zone Transfer (IXFR) is defined in RFC 1995. A mechanism for prompt notification of zone changes (NOTIFY) is defined in RFC 1996. The base definition of these facilities, that of the AXFR, has proven insufficient in detail, resulting in no implementation complying with it. Yet today we have a satisfactory set of implementations that do interoperate. This document is a new definition of the AXFR, new in the sense that is it recording an accurate definition of an interoperable AXFR mechanism. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-1-22113204.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-1-22113204.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 22 12:34:18 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHN0s-0000zK-4W; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:34:18 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHN0r-0001qL-Mc; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:34:18 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHMwp-0003B0-RX for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:30:07 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHMwm-0003AC-VM for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:30:06 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.106] (hlid.ogud.com [66.92.146.160]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0MHTrV2076952 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:29:53 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:29:51 -0500 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Edward Lewis Subject: In the wake of posting -06 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 66.92.146.160 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 244a2fd369eaf00ce6820a760a3de2e8 Here are (notable) changes I already anticipate in -07 based on the ID nit checker: diff draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt \ draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-07.txt Clean up the ' ' in the reference anchors and add it to the "prose." I should probably include the titles here. 139,142c139,142 < 1035, Section 4 ("MESSAGES") [RFC 1035], updated by the following < documents: RFC3425 [RFC3425], RFC1996 [RFC 1996], RFC2136 [RFC2136], < RFC2671 [RFC2671], RFC2845 [RFC2845], RFC2930 [RFC2930], RFC4035 < [RFC4035], RFC4635 [RFC4635]. In addition, one change is credited to --- > 1035, Section 4 ("MESSAGES") [RFC1035], updated by the following > documents: RFC 3425 [RFC3425], RFC 1996 [RFC1996], RFC 2136 [RFC2136], > RFC 2671 [RFC2671], RFC 2845 [RFC2845], RFC 2930 [RFC2930], RFC 4035 > [RFC4035], RFC 4635 [RFC4635]. In addition, one change is credited to I shrunk the reference anchor so I could thin the references (one space too wide). 192c192 < QTYPE AXFR [DNS-VALUES] --- > QTYPE AXFR [DNS-VALS] Change a "MUST not" to a "MUST NOT" 222c222 < not contain the SOA resource record. --- > NOT contain the SOA resource record. Change a "MAY NOT" to a "can not" 271c271 < response as AXFR MAY NOT be retrieved recursively. A client MAY note --- > response as AXFR can not be retrieved recursively. A client MAY note Above mentioned anchor trimming. 288c288 < consult the appropriate IANA registry [DNS-VALUES].) If a client --- > consult the appropriate IANA registry [DNS-VALS].) If a client General thinning of the reference sections, new word wrapping, etc. 623,650c623,653 ...(boring stuff to see) -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 NeuStar Think glocally. Act confused. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From grahamw@maidomaido.com Tue Jan 22 12:37:49 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHN4H-0006WP-C8; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:37:49 -0500 Received: from aaki2.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl ([83.5.12.2] helo=ww-0a8yu7j3r106) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHN4F-0003ms-L8; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:37:49 -0500 Received: from [83.5.12.2] by maidomaido.com; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:36:24 +0100 Message-ID: <01c85d25$b0c0fd30$020c0553@grahamw> From: "Nickolas Hollingsworth" To: <6lowpan-bounces@lists.ietf.org> Subject: Tiger Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:36:24 +0100 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:36:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4927.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4927.1200 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6d62ab47271805379d7172ee693a45db Our complete line of Med s are at huge discounts See us today http://heavyclass.com From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 22 13:09:23 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHNYp-0000Wx-MU; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:09:23 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHNYn-00033T-Nt; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:09:23 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHNT6-0006eV-81 for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:03:28 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [207.219.45.62] (helo=mail.libertyrms.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHNT3-0006e2-J8 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:03:26 +0000 Received: from [10.1.7.90] (helo=[10.1.7.90]) by mail.libertyrms.com with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1JHNT2-0000XP-Nn; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:03:24 -0500 Message-ID: <47962FE0.2080905@ca.afilias.info> Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:03:12 -0500 From: Brian Dickson User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Edward Lewis CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: AXFR draft on the way References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: briand@ca.afilias.info X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Edward Lewis wrote: > I submitted a -06 of the document last night, I had to do the "manual" > submission for some reason, which says "might take two working days." > There were some nits on it, so it's not perfect as is, I have no > delusion it is headed "straight to last call." > > I used the file name as before but changed the title to avoid the > debate over clarifications. Included are sections on case > preservation, AXFR over UDP (by writing it out we may see a desire to > kill it) and words on backwards compatibility. > > I hope to see this document get done. With so many years of > experience with AXFR, there probably isn't a lot of time needed to > noodle over concepts - but that doesn't excuse trying to feed the > document through the system quickly. This is about words and it may > take time to get the words right. But it's only about the words. > Having discussed content issues before the text was available (perhaps not a good practice in general), I should weigh in early: I've read it, and I'm quite happy with the words. Modulo any little things, would be happy to see it adopted once any minor things get fixed. Brian Dickson -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From akstcandersonkellymnsdgs@andersonkelly.com Tue Jan 22 14:34:55 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHOta-0003PN-V4; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 14:34:54 -0500 Received: from [222.99.171.45] (helo=aji.aji) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHOtZ-0007Hl-Sq; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 14:34:54 -0500 Received: from [222.99.171.45] by mail.andersonkelly.com; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 01:44:40 +0600 Message-ID: <01c85d61$84fd1ad0$2dab63de@akstcandersonkellymnsdgs> From: "Hannah Nicholas" To: <6lowpan-bounces@lists.ietf.org> Subject: Re: successful children. Above all, Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 01:44:40 +0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Spam-Score: 4.6 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 2870a44b67ee17965ce5ad0177e150f4 Our products are all onsale Have a look now http://mpizda.com From NicolasfiveWaters@coolestnickname.com Tue Jan 22 15:17:20 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHPYe-0006T1-3C; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 15:17:20 -0500 Received: from pdc38-1-82-246-183-61.fbx.proxad.net ([82.246.183.61] helo=titanium) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHPYd-0000CB-L9; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 15:17:19 -0500 Message-ID: <5bed01c85d33$de223c40$9600a8c0@titanium> From: "Ervin Parsons" To: , =20
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------=_NextPart_000_5BE9_01C85D33.DE223C40-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 22 16:45:29 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHQvx-0005ap-Cs; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:45:29 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHQvx-00019Z-22; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:45:29 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHQnf-0003jM-F1 for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 21:36:55 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc] (helo=drugs.dv.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHQnc-0003im-OQ for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 21:36:54 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0MLanfV008789 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:36:50 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200801222136.m0MLanfV008789@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:15:02 CDT." Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:36:49 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 There is no mention of TSIG. 2.1.5 Additional Section The client MAY include an EDNS0 section. If the server has indicated that it does not support EDNS0, the client MUST send this section empty if there is a retry. If the client is aware that the server does not support EDNS0, RECOMMENDED that this section be sent empty. A client MAY become aware of a server's abilities via a configuration setting. An implementation of a general purpose client and server is RECOMMENDED to support EDNS0. -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 22 16:49:07 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHQzT-00039E-Gh; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:49:07 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHQzT-0001El-5W; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:49:07 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHQvP-0004mb-C9 for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 21:44:55 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc] (helo=drugs.dv.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHQvM-0004lt-He for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 21:44:54 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0MLioXr008832 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:44:50 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200801222144.m0MLioXr008832@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:15:02 CDT." Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:44:50 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Note 2.1.1.b The value in this field has no meaning in the context of AXFR. For the client, RECOMMENDED that the value be zero. For the server, RECOMMENDED ignoring this value. I know we are talking about the query in section 2 but it needs reinforcement as AA has meaning in the response. Note 2.1.1.b The value in this field has no meaning in the context of a AXFR QUERY. For the client, RECOMMENDED that the value be zero. For the server, RECOMMENDED ignoring this value. I suspect this is a matter of a oversite by IANA. Note 2.1.1.c The Z bit is no longer registered with IANA (no document cited for change). RECOMMENDED client set to 0, server MUST ignore. To the best of my knowlegde it is still zero on send. There is debate over ignore / return FORMERR on receive. -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 22 16:58:10 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHR8E-0006Nh-HV; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:58:10 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHR8E-0001PV-6X; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:58:10 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHR4e-0006Ie-AC for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 21:54:28 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc] (helo=drugs.dv.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHR4b-0006I2-C9 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 21:54:27 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0MLsNZY008890 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:54:23 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200801222154.m0MLsNZY008890@drugs.dv.isc.org> to: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:15:02 CDT." Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:54:23 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Where does REFUSED and NOAUTH fit into this? There is no mention of a negative response to the query other than dropping the TCP connection. The later is against the advise of RFC 1035 which says that multiple queries should be supported and the SOA + AXFR must be supported. Dropping the TCP session prevents multiple AXFR using the same TCP session, be it serially or by multiplexing the results. 2.2 AXFR Response The AXFR Response will consist of 0 or more messages. A server MAY elect to ignore the request altogether. The first response MUST begin with the SOA resource record of the zone, the last response MUST conclude with the same SOA resource record. Intermediate responses MUST not contain the SOA resource record. -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From info@myardsley.com Tue Jan 22 17:18:15 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHRRf-0003CT-QM; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:18:15 -0500 Received: from h124-241-142-002.user.starcat.ne.jp ([124.241.142.2] helo=FM-2267815232.starcat.ne.jp) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHRRe-0005Bg-Fe; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:18:15 -0500 Received: from [124.241.142.2] by myardsley.com; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:16:51 +0900 Message-ID: <01c85d8f$ece1d9f0$028ef17c@info> From: "Kevin Goodrich" To: <6lowpan-bounces@lists.ietf.org> Subject: Car-race Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:16:51 +0900 Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:16:51 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2870a44b67ee17965ce5ad0177e150f4 We can get you hard as a rock http://fpowecc.com From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 22 18:05:04 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHSAx-0004IV-V6; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:05:03 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHSAx-0002yA-Eh; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:05:03 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHS5o-000D1f-6k for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 22:59:44 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHS5l-000D1D-P3 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 22:59:43 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.106] (hlid.ogud.com [66.92.146.160]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0MMxTX8079640; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:59:29 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200801222136.m0MLanfV008789@drugs.dv.isc.org> References: <200801222136.m0MLanfV008789@drugs.dv.isc.org> Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:56:57 -0500 To: Mark Andrews From: Edward Lewis Subject: TSIG was Re: draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 66.92.146.160 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Mark, It would be easier to answer if you segregated your remarks from quoted text with some sort of delimiting character. Or maybe address comments to sections of the document. At 8:36 +1100 1/23/08, Mark Andrews wrote: > There is no mention of TSIG. It is in the document. RFC 2845 is referenced three times. The penultimate paragraph of section 5, second paragraph of section 6. (And earlier in section 2.) In section 2.1.5, there is a mistake, "EDNS0 section" was meant to be "EDNS0 OPT Resource Record". Perhaps "EDNS0 OPT" is redundant but I wanted to emphasize the point. Looking at RFC 2845, I had mistakenly thought that TSIG rode in an OPT RR. So, the restrictions on ADCOUNT should be 0, 1, or 2, based on the use of EDNS0 and/or TSIG/SIG(0), is that right? -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 NeuStar Think glocally. Act confused. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 22 18:12:19 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHSHz-0002Go-JO; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:12:19 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHSHz-00039v-7c; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:12:19 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHSEN-000Doj-9X for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 23:08:35 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc] (helo=drugs.dv.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHSEK-000DoR-NP for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 23:08:34 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0MN8RMb068210; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:08:27 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200801222308.m0MN8RMb068210@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Edward Lewis Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: TSIG was Re: draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:56:57 CDT." Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:08:27 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b > Mark, > > It would be easier to answer if you segregated your remarks from > quoted text with some sort of delimiting character. Or maybe address > comments to sections of the document. > > At 8:36 +1100 1/23/08, Mark Andrews wrote: > > > There is no mention of TSIG. > > It is in the document. RFC 2845 is referenced three times. The > penultimate paragraph of section 5, second paragraph of section 6. > (And earlier in section 2.) > > In section 2.1.5, there is a mistake, "EDNS0 section" was meant to be > "EDNS0 OPT Resource Record". Perhaps "EDNS0 OPT" is redundant but I > wanted to emphasize the point. > > Looking at RFC 2845, I had mistakenly thought that TSIG rode in an > OPT RR. So, the restrictions on ADCOUNT should be 0, 1, or 2, based > on the use of EDNS0 and/or TSIG/SIG(0), is that right? Yes. > -- > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 > NeuStar > > Think glocally. Act confused. -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 22 18:17:54 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHSNO-0000af-2b; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:17:54 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHSNL-0003Jb-Qr; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:17:54 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHSJO-000EFC-UZ for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 23:13:46 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::1] (helo=sa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHSJM-000EEt-4a for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 23:13:45 +0000 Received: from sa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBEA31142F; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 23:13:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@sa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: Edward Lewis cc: Mark Andrews , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: TSIG was Re: draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:56:57 EST." References: <200801222136.m0MLanfV008789@drugs.dv.isc.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.0.2; nmh 1.0.4; GNU Emacs 21.3.1 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 23:13:43 +0000 Message-ID: <29370.1201043623@sa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de > Looking at RFC 2845, I had mistakenly thought that TSIG rode in an OPT RR. > So, the restrictions on ADCOUNT should be 0, 1, or 2, based on the use of > EDNS0 and/or TSIG/SIG(0), is that right? yes. and if both OPT and TSIG are present, then TSIG must be last. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 22 18:23:05 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHSSP-00041G-6V; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:23:05 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHSSO-0003Og-O8; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:23:05 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHSOv-000Emu-3v for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 23:19:29 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHSOs-000EmZ-Hf for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 23:19:27 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.106] (hlid.ogud.com [66.92.146.160]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0MNJANE079762; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:19:10 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200801222144.m0MLioXr008832@drugs.dv.isc.org> References: <200801222144.m0MLioXr008832@drugs.dv.isc.org> Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:10:09 -0500 To: Mark Andrews From: Edward Lewis Subject: Note 2.1.1.b was Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 66.92.146.160 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c Again, a little trouble understanding the points. At 8:44 +1100 1/23/08, Mark Andrews wrote: >Note 2.1.1.b The value in this field has no meaning in the >context of AXFR. For the client, RECOMMENDED that the value be zero. >For the server, RECOMMENDED ignoring this value. > > I know we are talking about the query in section 2 but it > needs reinforcement as AA has meaning in the response. > >Note 2.1.1.b The value in this field has no meaning in the context >of a AXFR QUERY. For the client, RECOMMENDED that the value be >zero. For the server, RECOMMENDED ignoring this value. I suppose you are suggesting to replace the first 2.1.1.b with the first. I don't see a second 2.1.1.b in my doc (I am prone to such numbering errors). > I suspect this is a matter of a oversite by IANA. What is "this" referring to? >Note 2.1.1.c The Z bit is no longer registered with IANA (no document >cited for change). RECOMMENDED client set to 0, server MUST ignore. > > To the best of my knowlegde it is still zero on send. There > is debate over ignore / return FORMERR on receive. When it comes to protocol design, my guidance on this is, if the bit being 1 is not expected but otherwise is not confusing, ignore it. There's little sense in trying expand the number of error states. Future-proofing benefits too, ignoring the MUST be set to zero's allows a future implemention to try to make use of the extensions without wasting probe messages. The issue about whether it MUST be 0 or is something else is comlicated by the fact that it has changed in the registry ([IANA]) and we don't know why. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 NeuStar Think glocally. Act confused. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 22 18:29:01 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHSY9-0000jr-TF; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:29:01 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHSY9-0003Tk-IJ; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:29:01 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHSVF-000FPz-1c for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 23:26:01 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHSVC-000FPb-2r for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 23:25:59 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.106] (hlid.ogud.com [66.92.146.160]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0MNPLWk079812; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:25:47 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <29370.1201043623@sa.vix.com> References: <200801222136.m0MLanfV008789@drugs.dv.isc.org> <29370.1201043623@sa.vix.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:24:16 -0500 To: Paul Vixie From: Edward Lewis Subject: Re: TSIG was Re: draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt Cc: Edward Lewis , Mark Andrews , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 66.92.146.160 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 At 23:13 +0000 1/22/08, Paul Vixie wrote: >> Looking at RFC 2845, I had mistakenly thought that TSIG rode in an OPT RR. >> So, the restrictions on ADCOUNT should be 0, 1, or 2, based on the use of >> EDNS0 and/or TSIG/SIG(0), is that right? > >yes. and if both OPT and TSIG are present, then TSIG must be last. Thanks for the clarification. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 NeuStar Think glocally. Act confused. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 22 18:29:50 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHSYw-0001Hr-Mx; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:29:50 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHSYw-0003Uf-7I; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:29:50 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHSUu-000FOV-39 for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 23:25:40 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHSUr-000FO5-DZ for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 23:25:38 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.106] (hlid.ogud.com [66.92.146.160]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0MNPLWi079812; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:25:23 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200801222154.m0MLsNZY008890@drugs.dv.isc.org> References: <200801222154.m0MLsNZY008890@drugs.dv.isc.org> Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:23:49 -0500 To: Mark Andrews From: Edward Lewis Subject: dropping connections was Re: draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 66.92.146.160 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f607d15ccc2bc4eaf3ade8ffa8af02a0 At 8:54 +1100 1/23/08, Mark Andrews wrote: > Where does REFUSED and NOAUTH fit into this? > > There is no mention of a negative response to the query > other than dropping the TCP connection. The later is against > the advise of RFC 1035 which says that multiple queries > should be supported and the SOA + AXFR must be supported. > Dropping the TCP session prevents multiple AXFR using the > same TCP session, be it serially or by multiplexing the > results. See Note 2.2.1.f. If you want the list of explicit errors expanded I can do that. REFUSED and NOAUTH are two types I assume have broader meanings and are covered by referring to the IANA registry for error types. As far as the drop the connection response, well, that is de jure legal these days and it has merit as a response. I once believed in the sanctity of the query-response pair but have been convinced that we shouldn't require a response to all queries. Particularly when the query is thought to be sent maliciously (like a DoS attempt). Can you explain what you mean by the SOA + AXFR must be supported? I understand the implications of dropping the TCP transport because you want to end an AXFR session when there are other concurrent sessions riding the same transport. They all fall down. The question is, how frequently is a connection you feel the need to drop going to have multiple, legitimate, concurrent sessions? > >2.2 AXFR Response > >The AXFR Response will consist of 0 or more messages. A server MAY >elect to ignore the request altogether. The first response MUST begin >with the SOA resource record of the zone, the last response MUST >conclude with the same SOA resource record. Intermediate responses MUST >not contain the SOA resource record. > >-- >Mark Andrews, ISC >1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia >PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org > >-- >to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with >the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. >archive: -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 NeuStar Think glocally. Act confused. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 22 19:11:16 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHTD2-00006f-39; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:11:16 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHTD0-0004CY-Bk; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:11:16 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHT68-000IY4-Ae for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 00:04:08 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [208.77.188.14] (helo=smtp01.icann.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHT65-000IXZ-EO for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 00:04:06 +0000 Received: from [10.0.1.200] (c-24-6-157-180.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [24.6.157.180]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.icann.org (8.13.8/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m0N041Xu002941 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:04:02 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.3.6.070618 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:04:01 -0800 Subject: Re: Note 2.1.1.b was Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt From: David Conrad To: Edward Lewis , Mark Andrews CC: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Note 2.1.1.b was Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt Thread-Index: AchdU3Uys3h5CMlGEdyOegAX8tYkCw== In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -8.0 (--------) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Waking up from my nap... On 1/22/08 3:10 PM, "Edward Lewis" wrote: > The issue about whether it MUST be 0 or is something else is > comlicated by the fact that it has changed in the registry ([IANA]) > and we don't know why. Eh? What registry? Thanks, -drc -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From dnsezdo@zebra.co.uk Tue Jan 22 19:15:21 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHTGz-0003Ny-SH for dnsext-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:15:21 -0500 Received: from [79.101.178.196] (helo=pc-fba385b68ac3) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHTGy-00084K-B8 for dnsext-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:15:21 -0500 X-Originating-IP: [57.7.8.226] X-Originating-Email: [dnsext-archive@ietf.org] X-Sender: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Received: (qmail 69027 by uid 276); Wed, 23 Jan 2008 01:15:21 +0100 Message-Id: <20080123021521.69029.qmail@pc-fba385b68ac3> To: Subject: SALE 77% OFF on Pfizer From: admin@Viagra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 4.5 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: d185fa790257f526fedfd5d01ed9c976
From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 22 19:32:58 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHTY2-00038K-By; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:32:58 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHTY1-0004qB-QH; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:32:58 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHTU6-000Kps-LY for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 00:28:54 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc] (helo=drugs.dv.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHTU3-000KpP-Il for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 00:28:53 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0N0Sj4W070933; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:28:46 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200801230028.m0N0Sj4W070933@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Edward Lewis Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: dropping connections was Re: draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:23:49 CDT." Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:28:45 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 10ba05e7e8a9aa6adb025f426bef3a30 > At 8:54 +1100 1/23/08, Mark Andrews wrote: > > Where does REFUSED and NOAUTH fit into this? > > > > There is no mention of a negative response to the query > > other than dropping the TCP connection. The later is against > > the advise of RFC 1035 which says that multiple queries > > should be supported and the SOA + AXFR must be supported. > > Dropping the TCP session prevents multiple AXFR using the > > same TCP session, be it serially or by multiplexing the > > results. > > See Note 2.2.1.f. If you want the list of explicit errors expanded I > can do that. REFUSED and NOAUTH are two types I assume have broader > meanings and are covered by referring to the IANA registry for error > types. > > As far as the drop the connection response, well, that is de jure > legal these days and it has merit as a response. I once believed in > the sanctity of the query-response pair but have been convinced that > we shouldn't require a response to all queries. Particularly when > the query is thought to be sent maliciously (like a DoS attempt). If you are *being* DoS'd then this a legitimate response. One request does not a DoS make. Programing this as *default* behaviour is just anti-social. Seeing REFUSED/NOAUTH in a log is much more informative than the connection went away. Think of the poor ISP that is offing DNS hosting services. Connection went away means "retry". REFUSED means "go away". If you can't afford to send a single packet response which is no bigger than the query then there is something very wrong. RFC's are about promoting interoperabilty. This is both at the machine and human levels. Closing the connection does neither. A machine getting REFUSED/NOTAUTH could use refresh rather than retry as the interval for next connection. A machine getting REFUSED could just mark the zone as inoperable until a human told it to re-probe. Neither strategy applies to connection closed. >Can you explain what you mean by the SOA + AXFR must be supported? RFC 1035 4.2.2. TCP usage > I understand the implications of dropping the TCP transport because > you want to end an AXFR session when there are other concurrent > sessions riding the same transport. They all fall down. The > question is, how frequently is a connection you feel the need to drop > going to have multiple, legitimate, concurrent sessions? I want a useful diagnostic to be sent. > >2.2 AXFR Response > > > >The AXFR Response will consist of 0 or more messages. A server MAY > >elect to ignore the request altogether. The first response MUST begin > >with the SOA resource record of the zone, the last response MUST > >conclude with the same SOA resource record. Intermediate responses MUST > >not contain the SOA resource record. > > > >-- > >Mark Andrews, ISC > >1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia > >PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org > > > >-- > >to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with > >the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. > >archive: > > -- > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 > NeuStar > > Think glocally. Act confused. -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 22 19:56:25 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHTuj-0001Xh-3s; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:56:25 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHTui-0005Bu-1f; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:56:25 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHTpR-000MuI-8e for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 00:50:57 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE, RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHTpO-000Mu2-AF for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 00:50:55 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.106] (hlid.ogud.com [66.92.146.160]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0N0nAKd080358; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:49:11 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:43:57 -0500 To: David Conrad From: Edward Lewis Subject: Re: Note 2.1.1.b was Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt Cc: Edward Lewis , Mark Andrews , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1011073144==_ma============" Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b6657e60309a1317174c9db2ae5f227 --============_-1011073144==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 16:04 -0800 1/22/08, David Conrad wrote: >Waking up from my nap... > >On 1/22/08 3:10 PM, "Edward Lewis" wrote: >> The issue about whether it MUST be 0 or is something else is >> comlicated by the fact that it has changed in the registry ([IANA]) >> and we don't know why. > >Eh? What registry? Referring to "bit 9" http://www.iana.org/assignments/dns-header-flags, #DNS Header Flags per [RFC1035] #------------------------------ #In DNS query header there is a flag field in the #second 16 bit word in query from bit 5 through #bit 11 (RFC1035 section 4.1.1) # # #bit 5 AA Authorative Answer [RFC1035] #bit 6 TC Truncated Response [RFC1035] #bit 7 RD Recursion Desired [RFC1035] #bit 8 RA Recursion Allowed [RFC1035] #bit 9 Reserved #bit 10 AD Authentic Data [RFC4035] #bit 11 CD Checking Disabled [RFC4035] I admit that it doesn't say [IANA] there, but I can say this is where the false memory got in my head: From: http://www.iana.org/assignments/dns-parameters #Domain System Operation Code: # #OpCode Name References #------ ---- ---------- # 0 Query [RFC1035] # 1 OpCode Retired (previously IQUERY - No further [RFC3425] # assignment of this code available) # 2 Status [RFC1035] # 3 reserved [IANA] ... With a reread, maybe the only "mistake" in the IANA registry is that the "bit 9" should still read: bit 9 Z Reserved [RFC1035] And I need to reword out the "Z bit" because Z referred to 3 bits "reserved for future use" in RFC 1035. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 NeuStar Think glocally. Act confused. --============_-1011073144==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: Note 2.1.1.b was Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-dnsext-axf
At 16:04 -0800 1/22/08, David Conrad wrote:
>Waking up from my nap...
>
>On 1/22/08 3:10 PM, "Edward Lewis" <Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz> wrote:
>> The issue about whether it MUST be 0 or is something else is
>> comlicated by the fact that it has changed in the registry ([IANA])
>> and we don't know why.
>
>Eh?  What registry?

Referring to "bit 9" http://www.iana.org/assignments/dns-header-flags,

#DNS Header Flags per [RFC1035]
#------------------------------
#In DNS query header there is a flag field in the
#second 16 bit word in query from bit 5 through
#bit 11 (RFC1035 section 4.1.1)
#
#
#bit 5     AA   Authorative Answer       [RFC1035]
#bit 6     TC   Truncated Response     [RFC1035]
#bit 7     RD   Recursion Desired      [RFC1035]
#bit 8     RA   Recursion Allowed       [RFC1035]
#bit 9          Reserved
#bit 10    AD   Authentic Data          [RFC4035]
#bit 11    CD   Checking Disabled      [RFC4035]

I admit that it doesn't say [IANA] there, but I can say this is where the false memory got in my head:

From: http://www.iana.org/assignments/dns-parameters

#Domain System Operation Code:
#
#OpCode   Name                                          References
#------   ----                                          ----------
#     0   Query                                          [RFC1035]
#     1   OpCode Retired (previously IQUERY - No further [RFC3425]
#         assignment of this code available)
#     2   Status                                         [RFC1035]
#     3   reserved                                       [IANA]
...

With a reread, maybe the only "mistake" in the IANA registry is that the "bit 9" should still read:

bit 9      Z   Reserved                 [RFC1035]


And I need to reword out the "Z bit" because Z referred to 3 bits "reserved for future use" in RFC 1035.

--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Edward Lewis                                                +1-571-434-5468
NeuStar

Think glocally.  Act confused.
--============_-1011073144==_ma============-- -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 22 21:01:21 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHUvZ-0005hH-Ka; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 21:01:21 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHUvX-0006il-Ba; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 21:01:21 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHUq3-0001bx-Qd for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 01:55:39 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [208.77.188.15] (helo=smtp01.icann.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHUq1-0001bf-06 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 01:55:38 +0000 Received: from [10.0.1.200] (c-24-6-157-180.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [24.6.157.180]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.icann.org (8.13.8/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m0N1tYHX013194 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:55:35 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.3.6.070618 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:55:33 -0800 Subject: Re: Note 2.1.1.b was Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt From: David Conrad To: Edward Lewis CC: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Note 2.1.1.b was Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt Thread-Index: AchdYwnxSLsIgslWEdyOegAX8tYkCw== In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -8.0 (--------) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Ed, > Referring to "bit 9" http://www.iana.org/assignments/dns-header-flags, ... > #bit 9 Reserved ... > With a reread, maybe the only "mistake" in the IANA registry is that the "bit > 9" should still read: > > bit 9 Z Reserved [RFC1035] ... If you would like to make this change (and no one thinks Ed is sniffing more glue than usual), let me know and I'll get a ticket created. Regards, -drc -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 22 21:22:08 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHVFg-0004Cw-7w; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 21:22:08 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHVFf-00074R-Ri; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 21:22:08 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHVBd-0003O1-CN for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 02:17:57 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc] (helo=drugs.dv.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHVBa-0003NZ-Nk for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 02:17:56 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0N2Hj5W046414; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:17:45 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200801230217.m0N2Hj5W046414@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: David Conrad Cc: Edward Lewis , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: Note 2.1.1.b was Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:55:33 -0800." Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:17:45 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a > Ed, > > > Referring to "bit 9" http://www.iana.org/assignments/dns-header-flags, > ... > > #bit 9 Reserved > ... > > With a reread, maybe the only "mistake" in the IANA registry is that the "b > it > > 9" should still read: > > > > bit 9 Z Reserved [RFC1035] > ... > > If you would like to make this change (and no one thinks Ed is sniffing more > glue than usual), let me know and I'll get a ticket created. Looks reasonable to me. > Regards, > -drc -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 22 21:48:46 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHVfS-00007x-LZ; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 21:48:46 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHVfS-0007Wj-A9; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 21:48:46 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHVbA-0005Iz-RI for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 02:44:20 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::1] (helo=sa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHVb8-0005Ii-Eb for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 02:44:19 +0000 Received: from sa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D4E61143C; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 02:44:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@sa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: David Conrad cc: Edward Lewis , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Note 2.1.1.b was Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:55:33 PST." References: X-Mailer: MH-E 8.0.2; nmh 1.0.4; GNU Emacs 21.3.1 Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 02:44:18 +0000 Message-ID: <39209.1201056258@sa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 > > 9" should still read: > > > > bit 9 Z Reserved [RFC1035] > ... > > If you would like to make this change (and no one thinks Ed is sniffing more > glue than usual), let me know and I'll get a ticket created. Z and [RFC1035] looks right to me. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From bacopa@modularlending.com Tue Jan 22 23:19:01 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHX4n-0002UP-0u for dnsext-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 23:19:01 -0500 Received: from user201aza-home.iba.cz ([217.75.215.201] helo=mmfkypwv) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHX4m-0005i7-F8 for dnsext-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 23:19:00 -0500 Message-ID: <000501c85d76$1cc11880$0100007f@vwcviww> From: "Pria Hanson" To: Subject: Jan 23 07:10:00 MSK 2008 save 1863 on a11 Ado6e/Mlcrosoft Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 05:19:08 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 12.0.4210 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Spam-Score: 3.3 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 goto "new2008oem . com" in your Internet Exp1orer creative suite standard - 99 microsoft exchange server enterprise 2003 - 59 adobe contribute cs3 - 39 adobe acrobat professional 7 - 69 avid liquid pro 7 - 69 corel painter ix for mac - 39 cyberlink powerdvd ultra deluxe 7 - 29 virtualdj 4.3 for mac - 39 endnote x1 for mac - 59 alias motionbuilder 6.0 - 49 discreet 3d studio max 6.0 with character studio - 129 autodesk architectural desktop 2006 - 119 avid liquid pro 7 - 69 avid newscutter xp 6.7.2 - 69 microsoft visual studio 2005 professional edition - 149 From ctapy@adelphia.com Wed Jan 23 00:39:29 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHYKf-0004YR-3z for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 00:39:29 -0500 Received: from [203.210.149.240] (helo=203.210.149.240) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHYKe-0008JD-8q for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 00:39:29 -0500 Message-ID: <000701c85d82$0153c8fb$28579083@sutevjm> From: "clim loyola" To: Subject: Free Shipping on all Designer Footwear from Chanel Gucci Prada Dior Ugg Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 03:52:44 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 3.7 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 OMG! 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SAVE NOW From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 23 02:37:37 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHaAz-00087r-C0; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 02:37:37 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHaAx-0006CF-8m; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 02:37:37 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHa3O-0001Wa-SF for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:29:46 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [85.17.178.134] (helo=stipula.dds.nl) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHa3M-0001WI-G1 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:29:45 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stipula.dds.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBCB9564142; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:29:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from stipula.dds.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (stipula.dds.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19338-02; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:29:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.254.1] (82-170-145-155-static.dsl.ip.tiscali.nl [82.170.145.155]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by stipula.dds.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EEA3564102; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:29:37 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4796ECE1.9030802@nlnetlabs.nl> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:29:37 +0100 From: "W.C.A. Wijngaards" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071115) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Edward Lewis CC: Paul Vixie , Mark Andrews , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: TSIG was Re: draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt References: <200801222136.m0MLanfV008789@drugs.dv.isc.org> <29370.1201043623@sa.vix.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.90.1/5528/Wed Jan 23 07:59:37 2008 on stipula.dds.nl X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Edward Lewis wrote: | At 23:13 +0000 1/22/08, Paul Vixie wrote: |>> Looking at RFC 2845, I had mistakenly thought that TSIG rode in an |>> OPT RR. |>> So, the restrictions on ADCOUNT should be 0, 1, or 2, based on the |>> use of |>> EDNS0 and/or TSIG/SIG(0), is that right? |> |> yes. and if both OPT and TSIG are present, then TSIG must be last. | | Thanks for the clarification. This is not documented anywhere (AFAIK). NSD accepts the order leniently, sends TSIG last. Best regards, ~ Wouter -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHluzhkDLqNwOhpPgRAruNAKCLi52CcfKUQ5lLl+lmA99ZmiXouACfQG3U S7dmI0wSsvbdSsLOh7qOa0k= =7YMk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 23 02:42:04 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHaFI-0004gb-Pz; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 02:42:04 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHaFG-0006JW-Bt; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 02:42:04 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHaBI-0001zr-8W for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:37:56 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc] (helo=drugs.dv.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHaBF-0001zV-Cc for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:37:54 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0N7bYk9041553; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:37:35 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200801230737.m0N7bYk9041553@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: "W.C.A. Wijngaards" Cc: Edward Lewis , Paul Vixie , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: TSIG was Re: draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:29:37 BST." <4796ECE1.9030802@nlnetlabs.nl> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:37:34 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Edward Lewis wrote: > | At 23:13 +0000 1/22/08, Paul Vixie wrote: > |>> Looking at RFC 2845, I had mistakenly thought that TSIG rode in an > |>> OPT RR. > |>> So, the restrictions on ADCOUNT should be 0, 1, or 2, based on the > |>> use of > |>> EDNS0 and/or TSIG/SIG(0), is that right? > |> > |> yes. and if both OPT and TSIG are present, then TSIG must be last. > | > | Thanks for the clarification. > > This is not documented anywhere (AFAIK). > > NSD accepts the order leniently, sends TSIG last. 3.2. TSIG processing on incoming messages If an incoming message contains a TSIG record, it MUST be the last record in the additional section. Multiple TSIG records are not allowed. If a TSIG record is present in any other position, the packet is dropped and a response with RCODE 1 (FORMERR) MUST be returned. Upon receipt of a message with a correctly placed TSIG RR, the TSIG RR is copied to a safe location, removed from the DNS > Best regards, > ~ Wouter > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFHluzhkDLqNwOhpPgRAruNAKCLi52CcfKUQ5lLl+lmA99ZmiXouACfQG3U > S7dmI0wSsvbdSsLOh7qOa0k= > =7YMk > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 23 02:44:42 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHaHq-0007xV-8b; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 02:44:42 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHaHp-0006UC-LA; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 02:44:42 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHaDc-0002AK-Jk for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:40:20 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [85.17.178.134] (helo=stipula.dds.nl) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHaDa-00029x-1U for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:40:19 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stipula.dds.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA83F56400C; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:40:16 +0100 (CET) Received: from stipula.dds.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (stipula.dds.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21197-04; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:40:13 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.254.1] (82-170-145-155-static.dsl.ip.tiscali.nl [82.170.145.155]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by stipula.dds.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B6AF56412C; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:40:11 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4796EF5A.50605@nlnetlabs.nl> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:40:10 +0100 From: "W.C.A. Wijngaards" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071115) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Andrews CC: Edward Lewis , Paul Vixie , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: TSIG was Re: draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt References: <200801230737.m0N7bYk9041553@drugs.dv.isc.org> In-Reply-To: <200801230737.m0N7bYk9041553@drugs.dv.isc.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.90.1/5528/Wed Jan 23 07:59:37 2008 on stipula.dds.nl X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Mark Andrews wrote: | Edward Lewis wrote: | | At 23:13 +0000 1/22/08, Paul Vixie wrote: | |>> Looking at RFC 2845, I had mistakenly thought that TSIG rode in an | |>> OPT RR. | |>> So, the restrictions on ADCOUNT should be 0, 1, or 2, based on the | |>> use of | |>> EDNS0 and/or TSIG/SIG(0), is that right? | |> | |> yes. and if both OPT and TSIG are present, then TSIG must be last. | | | | Thanks for the clarification. | | This is not documented anywhere (AFAIK). | | NSD accepts the order leniently, sends TSIG last. | |> 3.2. TSIG processing on incoming messages | |> If an incoming message contains a TSIG record, it MUST be the last |> record in the additional section. Multiple TSIG records are not |> allowed. If a TSIG record is present in any other position, the |> packet is dropped and a response with RCODE 1 (FORMERR) MUST be |> returned. Upon receipt of a message with a correctly placed TSIG RR, |> the TSIG RR is copied to a safe location, removed from the DNS Mark, this is only about TSIG. Not TSIG together with EDNS OPT. EDNS OPT must be last too. Best regards, ~ Wouter -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHlu9akDLqNwOhpPgRAvFJAKCYLn4fAAR4ZQlDgNq4gInXfjoA2QCcCZQh pQGgJgk1t1a3Zn15rj6DGCU= =yO2G -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 23 02:50:47 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHaNj-0001aE-Pt; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 02:50:47 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHaNj-0006bc-Ah; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 02:50:47 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHaK8-0002g2-Qi for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:47:04 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc] (helo=drugs.dv.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHaK5-0002fP-Q5 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:47:03 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0N7kmI2041619; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:46:48 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200801230746.m0N7kmI2041619@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: "W.C.A. Wijngaards" Cc: Edward Lewis , Paul Vixie , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: TSIG was Re: draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:40:10 BST." <4796EF5A.50605@nlnetlabs.nl> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:46:47 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: e8a67952aa972b528dd04570d58ad8fe > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Mark Andrews wrote: > | Edward Lewis wrote: > | | At 23:13 +0000 1/22/08, Paul Vixie wrote: > | |>> Looking at RFC 2845, I had mistakenly thought that TSIG rode in an > | |>> OPT RR. > | |>> So, the restrictions on ADCOUNT should be 0, 1, or 2, based on the > | |>> use of > | |>> EDNS0 and/or TSIG/SIG(0), is that right? > | |> > | |> yes. and if both OPT and TSIG are present, then TSIG must be last. > | | > | | Thanks for the clarification. > | > | This is not documented anywhere (AFAIK). > | > | NSD accepts the order leniently, sends TSIG last. > | > |> 3.2. TSIG processing on incoming messages > | > |> If an incoming message contains a TSIG record, it MUST be the last > |> record in the additional section. Multiple TSIG records are not > |> allowed. If a TSIG record is present in any other position, the > |> packet is dropped and a response with RCODE 1 (FORMERR) MUST be > |> returned. Upon receipt of a message with a correctly placed TSIG RR, > |> the TSIG RR is copied to a safe location, removed from the DNS > > Mark, this is only about TSIG. Not TSIG together with EDNS OPT. EDNS OPT > must be last too. No. OPT is just required to be in the additional section. 4.1. One OPT pseudo-RR can be added to the additional data section of either a request or a response. An OPT is called a pseudo-RR because it pertains to a particular transport level message and not to any actual DNS data. OPT RRs shall never be cached, forwarded, or stored in or loaded from master files. The quantity of OPT pseudo-RRs per message shall be either zero or one, but not greater. > > Best regards, > ~ Wouter > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFHlu9akDLqNwOhpPgRAvFJAKCYLn4fAAR4ZQlDgNq4gInXfjoA2QCcCZQh > pQGgJgk1t1a3Zn15rj6DGCU= > =yO2G > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 23 03:10:53 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHahB-0000Ss-Ir; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 03:10:53 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHahB-0006x4-4K; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 03:10:53 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHaZ3-0004F9-BT for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:02:29 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [85.17.178.134] (helo=stipula.dds.nl) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHaZ0-0004Ep-Rn for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:02:28 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stipula.dds.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2039794784; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:02:25 +0100 (CET) Received: from stipula.dds.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (stipula.dds.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03283-10; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:02:20 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.254.1] (82-170-145-155-static.dsl.ip.tiscali.nl [82.170.145.155]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by stipula.dds.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B343794364; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:02:19 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4796F489.3050701@nlnetlabs.nl> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:02:17 +0100 From: "W.C.A. Wijngaards" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071115) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Andrews CC: Edward Lewis , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: dropping connections was Re: draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt References: <200801230028.m0N0Sj4W070933@drugs.dv.isc.org> In-Reply-To: <200801230028.m0N0Sj4W070933@drugs.dv.isc.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.90.1/5528/Wed Jan 23 07:59:37 2008 on stipula.dds.nl X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Mark Andrews wrote: | I want a useful diagnostic to be sent. For a new protocol, I would definitely agree. For AXFR, the deployed base needs to be considered. I'm fine with some optional thingie to send these diagnostics that leaves existing AXFR software compliant. But I cannot think of a way to do that. Some way to cause the other side to drop the connection (if it is older software) ? NSD as an AXFR client (both NSD 2 and NSD 3) checks QR=1, RCODE=0 and ID=ok values in response messages, this seems to work well, there have been no complaints about interoperability. Best regards, ~ Wouter -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHlvSJkDLqNwOhpPgRAumeAKCscF/Rz6NNnG5pb31YQ4pT/20UigCfc5tp TXBwWFmyAV3CHoAzys7BWbM= =+350 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 23 03:34:11 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHb3j-0001pm-1V; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 03:34:11 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHb3i-0007ue-JZ; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 03:34:11 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHazS-0006EO-Hw for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:29:46 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc] (helo=drugs.dv.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHazP-0006E6-95 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:29:44 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0N8TWSE042087; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:29:32 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200801230829.m0N8TWSE042087@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: "W.C.A. Wijngaards" Cc: Edward Lewis , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: dropping connections was Re: draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:02:17 BST." <4796F489.3050701@nlnetlabs.nl> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:29:32 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 > Mark Andrews wrote: > | I want a useful diagnostic to be sent. > > For a new protocol, I would definitely agree. For AXFR, the deployed > base needs to be considered. I'm fine with some optional thingie to send > these diagnostics that leaves existing AXFR software compliant. But I > cannot think of a way to do that. Some way to cause the other side to > drop the connection (if it is older software) ? BIND 4 sent REFUSED when it didn't serve the zone, NOTAUTH hadn't been invented. This was before there was any acl's at all. REFUSED was documented in RFC 1034. This is not asking for something new. All clients handle having a error RCODE returned. I'm asking for all servers to generate a error RCODE when they don't want to send the zone. "When the poll shows that the zone has changed, then the secondary server must request a zone transfer via an AXFR request for the zone. The AXFR may cause an error, such as refused, but normally is answered by a sequence of response messages." Is there anything unclear about a error being supposed to be sent? > NSD as an AXFR client (both NSD 2 and NSD 3) checks QR=1, RCODE=0 and > ID=ok values in response messages, this seems to work well, there have > been no complaints about interoperability. We are not talking about a successful zone transfer. We are talking about the initial response to a AXFR query. Header + the question section which identifies the zone when TSIG and EDNS are not involved. A couple more bytes when TSIG and/or EDNS are in use. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 23 03:49:12 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHbIF-0007XH-Us; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 03:49:11 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHbID-0008M9-LR; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 03:49:11 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHbCP-00079q-0A for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:43:09 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [85.17.178.134] (helo=stipula.dds.nl) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHbCM-00079V-Fy for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:43:07 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stipula.dds.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66D2E7948AA; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:43:05 +0100 (CET) Received: from stipula.dds.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (stipula.dds.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13679-07; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:43:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.254.1] (82-170-145-155-static.dsl.ip.tiscali.nl [82.170.145.155]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by stipula.dds.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EA8D7948A6; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:43:00 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4796FE13.20608@nlnetlabs.nl> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:42:59 +0100 From: "W.C.A. Wijngaards" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071115) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Andrews CC: Edward Lewis , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: dropping connections was Re: draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt References: <200801230829.m0N8TWSE042087@drugs.dv.isc.org> In-Reply-To: <200801230829.m0N8TWSE042087@drugs.dv.isc.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.90.1/5528/Wed Jan 23 07:59:37 2008 on stipula.dds.nl X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Mark Andrews wrote: |> Mark Andrews wrote: |> | I want a useful diagnostic to be sent. | BIND 4 sent REFUSED when it didn't serve the zone, NOTAUTH | hadn't been invented. This was before there was any acl's | at all. REFUSED was documented in RFC 1034. This is not | asking for something new. All clients handle having a error | RCODE returned. I'm asking for all servers to generate a | error RCODE when they don't want to send the zone. NSD also sends REFUSED if it doesn't have the zone. | Is there anything unclear about a error being supposed to | be sent? We could print it in a bigger font size :-) Are you implying that deployed implementations of AXFR do not send such an error? Mandating such an error to be sent; although it makes a lot of sense, does invalidate those existing implementations. Best regards, ~ Wouter -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHlv4TkDLqNwOhpPgRAq7LAJ0b3Bj3uVvO01F0EL6yWjwkjfNLIwCgmpIf VWqXu427XkVK3qB9pueXqFY= =HtsS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 23 03:59:36 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHbSK-0005Vr-KI; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 03:59:36 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHbSK-00006B-7P; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 03:59:36 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHbOF-00081X-E9 for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:55:23 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc] (helo=drugs.dv.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHbOC-00081A-Cr for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:55:22 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0N8t9ih042419; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:55:09 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200801230855.m0N8t9ih042419@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: "W.C.A. Wijngaards" Cc: Edward Lewis , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: dropping connections was Re: draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:42:59 BST." <4796FE13.20608@nlnetlabs.nl> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:55:08 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Mark Andrews wrote: > |> Mark Andrews wrote: > |> | I want a useful diagnostic to be sent. > | BIND 4 sent REFUSED when it didn't serve the zone, NOTAUTH > | hadn't been invented. This was before there was any acl's > | at all. REFUSED was documented in RFC 1034. This is not > | asking for something new. All clients handle having a error > | RCODE returned. I'm asking for all servers to generate a > | error RCODE when they don't want to send the zone. > > NSD also sends REFUSED if it doesn't have the zone. > > | Is there anything unclear about a error being supposed to > | be sent? > > We could print it in a bigger font size :-) > Are you implying that deployed implementations of AXFR do not send such > an error? Yes. > Mandating such an error to be sent; although it makes a lot of > sense, does invalidate those existing implementations. > > Best regards, > ~ Wouter > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > iD8DBQFHlv4TkDLqNwOhpPgRAq7LAJ0b3Bj3uVvO01F0EL6yWjwkjfNLIwCgmpIf > VWqXu427XkVK3qB9pueXqFY= > =HtsS > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From a-amitys@a7up.com Wed Jan 23 06:28:16 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHdmB-00027K-UV; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 06:28:16 -0500 Received: from [78.163.122.139] (helo=[78.163.122.139]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHdmA-0002uL-Pj; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 06:28:15 -0500 Received: from [78.163.122.139] by a7up.com; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:01:35 +0200 Message-ID: <01c85dc8$76eac980$8b7aa34e@a-amitys> From: "Rachelle French" To: Subject: I was looking for you Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:01:35 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4927.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4927.1200 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0f1ff0b0158b41ac6b9548d0972cdd31 Hello! 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Above all, MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1250 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 2.0 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 01485d64dfa90b45a74269b3ca9d5574 All of our Med"s are onsale Have a look now http://ArnulfoSteeleWE.googlepages.com From info@magnumfans.com Wed Jan 23 11:46:16 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHijw-0000NW-7i; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:46:16 -0500 Received: from [190.25.228.164] (helo=corporat190-025228164.sta.etb.net.co) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHijv-0006oL-3W; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:46:15 -0500 Received: from [190.25.228.164] by m1.dnsix.com; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:44:50 -0500 Message-ID: <01c85db5$5c5b2500$a4e419be@info> From: "Eugenia Vigil" To: <6lowpan-bounces@lists.ietf.org> Subject: Web Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:44:50 -0500 Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:44:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-Spam-Score: 2.8 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 2870a44b67ee17965ce5ad0177e150f4 We can get you hard as a rock http://nurtuous.com From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 23 13:08:25 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHk1Q-0007Ch-Ur; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:08:24 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHk1Q-0000Ah-AY; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:08:24 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHjrF-000Ai3-9d for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:57:53 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHjrC-000Ahh-Gi for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:57:51 +0000 Received: from Puki.ogud.com (ns.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.6]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0NHvL9v087093; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 12:57:22 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ogud@ogud.com) Message-Id: <200801231757.m0NHvL9v087093@ogud.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 12:57:14 -0500 To: David Conrad , Edward Lewis From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3lafur?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Gu=F0mundsson?= /DNSEXT chair Subject: Re: Note 2.1.1.b was Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt Cc: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 10.20.30.6 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b David please do the magic to have this change made. Olafur (returning from vacation and finding 500 messages in moderation queue, for once there where more messages returned due to bad addresses than spam due to high volume of messages on the list) At 13:39 23/01/2008, David Conrad wrote: >Ed, > > > Referring to "bit 9" http://www.iana.org/assignments/dns-header-flags, >... > > #bit 9 Reserved >... > > With a reread, maybe the only "mistake" in the IANA registry is > that the "bit > > 9" should still read: > > > > bit 9 Z Reserved [RFC1035] >... > >If you would like to make this change (and no one thinks Ed is sniffing more >glue than usual), let me know and I'll get a ticket created. > >Regards, >-drc > > > > >-- >to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with >the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. >archive: -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 23 13:33:44 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHkPw-0006V9-2k; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:33:44 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHkPt-0000mP-Dy; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:33:44 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHkKa-000E7D-Pr for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:28:12 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [130.105.36.66] (helo=cirrus.av8.net) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHkKX-000E63-Jk for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:28:11 +0000 Received: from [130.105.12.10] ([130.105.12.10]) (authenticated bits=0) by cirrus.av8.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m0NIQPgu014638 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:26:26 -0500 Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:26:25 -0500 (EST) From: Dean Anderson X-X-Sender: dean@citation2.av8.net To: David Conrad cc: Edward Lewis , Subject: Re: Note 2.1.1.b was Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 Important questions are: How did these IANA documents get changed? Why wasn't anyone notified of these changes when the happened? What other questionable changes have happened to IANA documents? --Dean On Tue, 22 Jan 2008, David Conrad wrote: > Ed, > > > Referring to "bit 9" http://www.iana.org/assignments/dns-header-flags, > ... > > #bit 9 Reserved > ... > > With a reread, maybe the only "mistake" in the IANA registry is that the "bit > > 9" should still read: > > > > bit 9 Z Reserved [RFC1035] > ... > > If you would like to make this change (and no one thinks Ed is sniffing more > glue than usual), let me know and I'll get a ticket created. > > Regards, > -drc > > > > > -- > to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with > the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. > archive: > > -- Av8 Internet Prepared to pay a premium for better service? www.av8.net faster, more reliable, better service 617 344 9000 -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 23 14:43:44 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHlVg-0001n9-Kq; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:43:44 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHlVe-0002m0-QI; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:43:44 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHlNd-000Mi2-KF for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:35:25 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [207.5.72.226] (helo=EXHUB016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHlNa-000Mha-Pk for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:35:24 +0000 Received: from EXVMBX016-2.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.172]) by EXHUB016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.226]) with mapi; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:35:22 -0800 From: David Conrad To: Dean Anderson CC: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org" Importance: low Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:35:19 -0800 Subject: Re: Note 2.1.1.b was Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt Thread-Topic: Note 2.1.1.b was Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt Thread-Index: Achd8SSuZFjZ+n8DT0uLouZcIkaOVwABfF5T Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b Dean, On 1/23/08 10:26 AM, "Dean Anderson" wrote: > Important questions are: > > How did these IANA documents get changed? It isn't clear to me that they did, at least since I've been at IANA -- the last change to the dns-header-flags registry was done on 9 June 2005 (as a result of RFC 4035). > Why wasn't anyone notified of these changes when the happened? If a change did occur, IANA normally only notifies the requester of the change. > What other questionable changes have happened to IANA documents? If I told you, it would expose IANA's nefarious plans for global domination through subtle changes in the IANA registries and then I'd have to kill you= . More seriously, if there are 'questionable' changes, we are unaware of them= . Changes to registries are generally defined within IANA consideration sections of RFCs (to be) and current procedure is to ask the requesters to verify the changes to the registries are correct both before and after the change. However, stuff (as they say) happens, and occasionally typos (etc.) are made in registries that aren't caught before they're published. When we're notified of such issues, or if a registry needs to be clarified for whatever reason, we'll go and make the changes without much drama. Regards, -drc -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 23 15:34:02 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHmIM-0002zg-66; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:34:02 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHmIB-0005dh-QL; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:34:02 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHmCJ-0004GP-5x for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 20:27:47 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [64.102.122.148] (helo=rtp-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHmCG-0004G2-Kb for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 20:27:45 +0000 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.25,240,1199682000"; d="scan'208";a="84199981" Received: from rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com ([64.102.121.159]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 23 Jan 2008 15:27:44 -0500 Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com (rtp-core-2.cisco.com [64.102.124.13]) by rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m0NKRhMc018062; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:27:43 -0500 Received: from xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-211.cisco.com [64.102.31.102]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id m0NKRRIx027770; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 20:27:33 GMT Received: from xfe-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.38]) by xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:27:26 -0500 Received: from [161.44.65.151] ([161.44.65.151]) by xfe-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:27:26 -0500 Message-ID: <4797A32E.5030804@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:27:26 -0500 From: Josh Littlefield Organization: Cisco Systems User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Conrad CC: Dean Anderson , "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org" Subject: Re: Note 2.1.1.b was Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Jan 2008 20:27:26.0314 (UTC) FILETIME=[5E2CF4A0:01C85DFE] DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=2691; t=1201120064; x=1201984064; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=joshl@cisco.com; z=From:=20Josh=20Littlefield=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20Note=202.1.1.b=20was=20Re=3A=20I-D=20=2 0ACTION=3Adraft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt |Sender:=20 |To:=20David=20Conrad=20; bh=MqzzIfyfcnSLtUxaYzy4u+SWyD8mhOEoNrhv3bXjqm4=; b=Fg8CX2jAN/Zc/Q/jjcMWrswjyNYgXut0TqQmvG2Nkj/4kKR/G6+Y62J2/n 0oIuKYa4jecBRC/oMizJTWI2MDQWP9hnTTDAE53hO/seBA8GyOYhC/8fYv4R 6Q3nxAIpYC; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-2; header.From=joshl@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim2001 verified; ); Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 25620135586de10c627e3628c432b04a According to the Internet Way-Back Machine (web.archive.org), there was no IANA registry of DNS header flags as of 12/1/1998 (only "dns-parameters", allocating class, type, opcode and rcode values): http://web.archive.org/web/19981201080713/http://www.isi.edu/in-notes/iana/assignments/dns-parameters On May 1, 2001, the registry moved from ISI to IANA.org. The dns-header-flags registry first appears, as a separate document, in 11/2001 with a mod date of 10/16/2001, lagging by a few years the new allocation of header flags since RFC 1035, when 2 bits from the former 3-bit Z field were allocated by RFC 2535 (3/1999). Bit 9 looked in 10/2001 exactly as it does today. So, this wasn't a change. It just was. -josh David Conrad wrote: > Dean, > > On 1/23/08 10:26 AM, "Dean Anderson" wrote: > >> Important questions are: >> >> How did these IANA documents get changed? >> > > It isn't clear to me that they did, at least since I've been at IANA -- the > last change to the dns-header-flags registry was done on 9 June 2005 (as a > result of RFC 4035). > > >> Why wasn't anyone notified of these changes when the happened? >> > > If a change did occur, IANA normally only notifies the requester of the > change. > > >> What other questionable changes have happened to IANA documents? >> > > If I told you, it would expose IANA's nefarious plans for global domination > through subtle changes in the IANA registries and then I'd have to kill you. > > More seriously, if there are 'questionable' changes, we are unaware of them. > Changes to registries are generally defined within IANA consideration > sections of RFCs (to be) and current procedure is to ask the requesters to > verify the changes to the registries are correct both before and after the > change. However, stuff (as they say) happens, and occasionally typos (etc.) > are made in registries that aren't caught before they're published. When > we're notified of such issues, or if a registry needs to be clarified for > whatever reason, we'll go and make the changes without much drama. > > Regards, > -drc > > > -- > to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with > the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. > archive: > -- ===================================================================== Josh Littlefield Cisco Systems, Inc. joshl@cisco.com 1414 Massachusetts Avenue tel: 978-936-1379 fax: 978-936-2226 Boxborough, MA 01719-2205 -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 23 18:57:04 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHpSq-0000sJ-SM; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:57:04 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHpSo-0003ox-GC; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:57:04 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHpLT-000PAA-BY for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:49:27 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [130.105.36.66] (helo=cirrus.av8.net) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHpLQ-000P8w-R3 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:49:26 +0000 Received: from [130.105.12.10] ([130.105.12.10]) (authenticated bits=0) by cirrus.av8.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m0NNmwWh015049 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:49:01 -0500 Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:48:58 -0500 (EST) From: Dean Anderson X-X-Sender: dean@citation2.av8.net To: David Conrad cc: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org" Subject: Re: Note 2.1.1.b was Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 02ec665d00de228c50c93ed6b5e4fc1a On Wed, 23 Jan 2008, David Conrad wrote: > Dean, > > On 1/23/08 10:26 AM, "Dean Anderson" wrote: > > Important questions are: > > > > How did these IANA documents get changed? > > It isn't clear to me that they did, at least since I've been at IANA -- the > last change to the dns-header-flags registry was done on 9 June 2005 (as a > result of RFC 4035). Hmm. A line became wrong, as Ed noted. Was it always wrong? Are there archives? Is there version control? > > Why wasn't anyone notified of these changes when the happened? > > If a change did occur, IANA normally only notifies the requester of the > change. Perhaps IANA should notify more contacts of changes to IANA documents. I'd like to be on that notification list. > > What other questionable changes have happened to IANA documents? > > If I told you, it would expose IANA's nefarious plans for global domination > through subtle changes in the IANA registries and then I'd have to kill you. > > More seriously, if there are 'questionable' changes, we are unaware of them. I suppose the question should be restated: What controls does IANA have in place to prevent unauthorized changes? Most institutions have audit trails to discover and prevent unauthorized changes to important "stuff". > Changes to registries are generally defined within IANA consideration > sections of RFCs (to be) and current procedure is to ask the requesters to > verify the changes to the registries are correct both before and after the > change. However, stuff (as they say) happens, and occasionally typos (etc.) > are made in registries that aren't caught before they're published. When > we're notified of such issues, or if a registry needs to be clarified for > whatever reason, we'll go and make the changes without much drama. Lets try not to have "stuff happen" to important "stuff" --Dean -- Av8 Internet Prepared to pay a premium for better service? www.av8.net faster, more reliable, better service 617 344 9000 -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 23 19:50:49 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHqIr-0006l7-Qf; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:50:49 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHqIq-0005Oa-2D; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:50:49 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHqCn-0007A6-G3 for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:44:33 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [207.5.72.225] (helo=EXHUB016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHqCk-00079i-QW for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:44:32 +0000 Received: from EXVMBX016-2.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.172]) by EXHUB016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.225]) with mapi; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:44:30 -0800 From: David Conrad To: Dean Anderson CC: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org" Importance: low Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:44:28 -0800 Subject: Re: IANA "stuff" (was Note 2.1.1.b was Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt) Thread-Topic: IANA "stuff" (was Note 2.1.1.b was Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt) Thread-Index: AcheGph5cHvsE0O7TEmmMdqGyvEWuQAB62/t Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 [It has been suggested that I =B3not feed the trolls=B2 and that this isn't really relevant to the EVIL 'BIND COMPANY' (which appears to be growing to encompass the remaining free world) PLOT known as "AXFR Clarify", so this will be my last response on this thread. I=B9ve been responding to give people an idea of how things work at IANA. Feel free to delete this message if this isn=B9t of interest] Dean, On 1/23/08 3:48 PM, "Dean Anderson" wrote: >> It isn't clear to me that they did, at least since I've been at IANA -- = the >> last change to the dns-header-flags registry was done on 9 June 2005 (as= a >> result of RFC 4035). > > Hmm. A line became wrong, as Ed noted. Was it always wrong? Are there > archives? Is there version control? It just may be Ed made a bit of a booboo. As Josh pointed out, the registr= y appears to always have been the way it is. Whether it is wrong is likely a value judgment. Yes, there are internal archives and version control. > Perhaps IANA should notify more contacts of changes to IANA documents. > I'd like to be on that notification list. We don't currently have a mechanism in place for this. If others think it useful, I'll ask to have this discussed with the IESG to see if they feel i= t appropriate (and if so, what priority they'd place on it). > What controls does IANA have in place to prevent unauthorized changes? > > Most institutions have audit trails to discover and prevent unauthorized > changes to important "stuff". Audit trails, of course, do not prevent unauthorized changes. All changes (and proposed changes) are tracked via a ticketing system. Modification of the IANA registries is limited to authorized personnel (IANA staff) and are version controlled. We're looking into PGP/GPG signing the registries, but other priorities have consumed our limited resources. > Lets try not to have "stuff happen" to important "stuff" So kind of you to make the suggestion. We'll try to keep it in mind. Regards, -drc -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From akstcaltachecountrymnsdgs@altachecountry.com Wed Jan 23 22:48:28 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHt4l-0003LG-Qu; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 22:48:28 -0500 Received: from [124.136.146.235] (helo=1n2uda9lrlfu7gl.ybn.co.kr) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHt4k-0004dk-PC; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 22:48:27 -0500 Received: from [124.136.146.235] by mail.altachecountry.com; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 12:58:23 +0900 Message-ID: <01c85e88$cd7291a0$eb92887c@akstcaltachecountrymnsdgs> From: "Abby Robison" To: <6lowpan-bounces@lists.ietf.org> Subject: Re: "In the current environment where Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 12:58:23 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Spam-Score: 2.3 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea Enjoy our prices and save with us. Improve your health and budget condition purchasing high quality med s with Canadian Pharmacy online drugstore which offers medications at very low prices. http://dependmiddle.com From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 23 23:11:50 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHtRO-0002Z3-SR; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:11:50 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHtRM-0000Fb-NT; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:11:50 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHtKq-000NV6-2h for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 04:05:04 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, USER_IN_ALL_SPAM_TO autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [130.105.36.66] (helo=cirrus.av8.net) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHtKm-000NU1-8p for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 04:05:01 +0000 Received: from [130.105.12.10] ([130.105.12.10]) (authenticated bits=0) by cirrus.av8.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m0O44Xtr015630 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:04:33 -0500 Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:04:33 -0500 (EST) From: Dean Anderson X-X-Sender: dean@citation2.av8.net To: David Conrad cc: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org" , , , , , , Subject: Re: IANA "stuff" (was Note 2.1.1.b was Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 03169bfe4792634a390035a01a6c6d2f On Wed, 23 Jan 2008, David Conrad wrote: > [It has been suggested that I ³not feed the trolls² and that this isn't > really relevant to the EVIL 'BIND COMPANY' (which appears to be growing to > encompass the remaining free world) PLOT known as "AXFR Clarify", so this > will be my last response on this thread. I¹ve been responding to give > people an idea of how things work at IANA. Feel free to delete this message > if this isn¹t of interest] First, IANA is a US government function. Its records are government records. Altering government records without authorization is felony. As a custodian of government records, ICANN has some serious responsibilities for their care. I think Mr. Conrad should take those responsibilities much more seriously than it seems he does. It seems highly improper for Mr. Conrad, under official ICANN and IANA (government) colors, to engage in exaggerations such as the above which ridicule and defame and are inappropriate to the IETF. Second, the misconduct alleged on the AXFR-clarify draft from 2000 to 2003 happened while David Conrad was the CEO of Nomimum, and shared an office with Paul Vixie. The original AXFR-clarify draft was submitted by a Nominum employee. The false assurances that no wire changes were made by a Nomimum employee. People relied on these false assurances. During this period (1996-2002), Paul Vixie misled the internet community that MAPS was a non-profit enterprise. Sharing an office with Vixie, Conrad must have been aware of the true facts about MAPS status, but kept silent. As I already noted in my previous message, Vixie was a shareholder and Board Member of a commercial bulk emailer known as Whitehat (1998-2002+). But this wasn't widely known at the time. Sharing an office with Vixie, it seems hard to believe that Conrad wasn't aware of that. Conrad still kept silent. Also during this period (2000-2001), Paul Vixie was a defendant in Exactis v. MAPS, which cited charges of Tortious Interference with Contract, Tortious Interference with Prospective Business Relations, violation of the Colorado Consumer Protection Act, Intentional and Negligent Misrepresentation and Extortion, violation of the Colorado Communications Privacy Act, violation of the Colorado Organized Crime Control Act, violation of the Sherman Antitrust Act, violation of the Colorado Antitrust act. A Temporary Restraining Order (TRO) was obtained. Vixie and MAPS attempts to have the case dismissed failed, and MAPS settled out of Court. MAPS no longer blocks Exactis. A TRO is a fact. A TRO is citable in subsequent litigation. A previous TRO helps establish that similar facts are sufficient to establish similar claims. A TRO is a decision that the facts cited, if true, are sufficient to establish the claims made and that the plaintiff can prevail absent false facts or some defense. MAPS and Vixie tried vigorously to have the case dismissed, using defenses they also cited in their reply. Those efforts to have the case dismiss failed. Those are facts, too. Exactis V. MAPS is basically a RICO case. The statute of limitations of RICO is 10 years. Anyone who is injured by the RICO enterprise can bring a RICO case. Indeed, I think I have been injured by this enterprise. In 1998, I was threatened on NANOG with physical harm in connection with this RICO enterprise. This threat is a violation of the Hobbs Act (a RICO predicate act). Mr. Conrad was a member of NANOG at that time, but he kept silent. More injury from this enterprise has happened since 1998, some of it in connection with the AXFR-clarify scheme, even. When a non-profit is involved, economic harm can be the unlawful object of a RICO enterprise, in addition to economic profit. So, during the same time as events of Exactis V. MAPS, during the period of the AXFR-clarify events (2000-2003), Mr. Conrad was in the same office as Paul Vixie, overseeing in the AXFR-clarify scheme involving false statements (the fact that there were no wire changes in AXFR-clarify) that people relied on (the members of the IETF WG). Nominum, ISC and UltraDNS were the benefactors of that scheme. Without commenting on whether any laws were broken, there are clearly ethical problems and serious misconduct of IETF officials and other IETF members, including Mr. Conrad. > > Dean, > > On 1/23/08 3:48 PM, "Dean Anderson" wrote: > >> It isn't clear to me that they did, at least since I've been at IANA -- the > >> last change to the dns-header-flags registry was done on 9 June 2005 (as a > >> result of RFC 4035). > > > > Hmm. A line became wrong, as Ed noted. Was it always wrong? Are there > > archives? Is there version control? > > It just may be Ed made a bit of a booboo. As Josh pointed out, the registry > appears to always have been the way it is. Whether it is wrong is likely a > value judgment. Yes, there are internal archives and version control. At least, there is version control. I suppose that's a start. But then in that case, why weren't the dates of changes clear to you in your first response? > > Perhaps IANA should notify more contacts of changes to IANA documents. > > I'd like to be on that notification list. > > We don't currently have a mechanism in place for this. If others think it > useful, I'll ask to have this discussed with the IESG to see if they feel it > appropriate (and if so, what priority they'd place on it). Good. Though, it seems ICANN could do this without input from their IETF technical consultant. It seems to be an administrative matter, more than a technical matter. I think consultation with the Department of Commerce would also be appropriate. But of course, speaking for myself, members of the IETF will offer technical assistance as necessary. > > What controls does IANA have in place to prevent unauthorized changes? > > > > Most institutions have audit trails to discover and prevent unauthorized > > changes to important "stuff". > > Audit trails, of course, do not prevent unauthorized changes. Audit trails deter unauthorized changes when employees understand there is an audit trail, and the audit trail can't be altered by the employees. > All changes (and proposed changes) are tracked via a ticketing system. > Modification of the IANA registries is limited to authorized personnel > (IANA staff) and are version controlled. We're looking into PGP/GPG > signing the registries, but other priorities have consumed our limited > resources. This all sounds good. > > > Lets try not to have "stuff happen" to important "stuff" > > So kind of you to make the suggestion. We'll try to keep it in mind. I'm not very assured you will when you make the excuse that "stuff happens". I'm not at all convinced you are the right person for that job. --Dean -- Av8 Internet Prepared to pay a premium for better service? www.av8.net faster, more reliable, better service 617 344 9000 -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From teklink@babysitterportal.com Wed Jan 23 23:41:13 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHttp-0008QO-1B; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:41:13 -0500 Received: from [119.11.105.2] (helo=comp) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHttn-0005gH-MT; Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:41:12 -0500 Received: from [119.11.105.2] by mail.babysitterportal.com; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 14:39:45 +1000 Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 14:39:45 +1000 From: "Lester Burnette" X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.51) Home Reply-To: teklink@babysitterportal.com X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <493539330.47141715507859@babysitterportal.com> To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: to other bodies. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 0f1ff0b0158b41ac6b9548d0972cdd31 All kinds of replicas on sale now See us at http://assikeii.com From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 24 00:49:12 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHuxc-0004O9-Q1; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:49:12 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHuxb-00021j-JW; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:49:12 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHuqZ-0005iE-Vt for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 05:41:55 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00, USER_IN_ALL_SPAM_TO autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::1] (helo=sa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHuqW-0005h4-7e for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 05:41:54 +0000 Received: from sa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 308EF1142E; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 05:41:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@sa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org" , iana@iana.org, amanda.baber@icann.org, donck@isoc.org, iesg@ietf.org, st.amour@isoc.org, questions@icann.org Subject: Re: IANA "stuff" (was Note 2.1.1.b was Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:04:33 EST." References: X-Mailer: MH-E 8.0.2; nmh 1.0.4; GNU Emacs 21.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 05:41:51 +0000 Message-ID: <26025.1201153311@sa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 963faf56c3a5b6715f0b71b66181e01a > > [It has been suggested that I =B3not feed the trolls=B2 and that this i= sn't > > really relevant to the EVIL 'BIND COMPANY' (which appears to be growing= to > > encompass the remaining free world) PLOT known as "AXFR Clarify", so th= is > > will be my last response on this thread. ditto, and for similar reasons. > > I=B9ve been responding to gi= ve > > people an idea of how things work at IANA. Feel free to delete this mes= sage > > if this isn=B9t of interest] let me recommend in advance that everyone delete this message w/o reading i= t, i'm sure you all have cats and that shampooing those would be a better use = of your time than reading any further in this thread. all i'm about to do is expand on what i meant when i said "this is all rubbish, and old rubbish at that." and i ought to know better. mr. anderson wrote: > ... > Second, the misconduct alleged on the AXFR-clarify draft from 2000 to > 2003 happened while David Conrad was the CEO of Nomimum, and shared an > office with Paul Vixie. The original AXFR-clarify draft was submitted by > a Nominum employee. The false assurances that no wire changes were made > by a Nomimum employee. People relied on these false assurances. the nominum employee you're referring to has such a strong personal ethic a= nd reputation that it is hard to imagine him parroting anybody else's ideas or writing anything in an internet-draft that he didn't personally believe in. > During this period (1996-2002), Paul Vixie misled the internet community > that MAPS was a non-profit enterprise. Sharing an office with Vixie, > Conrad must have been aware of the true facts about MAPS status, but > kept silent. maps was a nonprofit enterprise. it was never a federally recognized 501c3, due to various administrative errors i made when i ran it, but when david shared an office with me (oh such halcyon days of yore) he never had any reason to believe that maps wasn't just a nonprofit drowning in lawsuits. > As I already noted in my previous message, Vixie was a shareholder and Bo= ard > Member of a commercial bulk emailer known as Whitehat (1998-2002+). But > this wasn't widely known at the time. Sharing an office with Vixie, it se= ems > hard to believe that Conrad wasn't aware of that. Conrad still kept silen= t. to the extent that david knew anything about whitehat, he knew what was in the press releases, which was that a bunch of staunch anti-spammers had got together to prove that commercial bulk e-mail could be done responsibly and without abuse and also profitably. (which *was* widely known at the time.) > Also during this period (2000-2001), Paul Vixie was a defendant in Exactis > v. MAPS, ... A Temporary Restraining Order (TRO) was obtained. Vixie and > MAPS attempts to have the case dismissed failed, and MAPS settled out of > Court. MAPS no longer blocks Exactis. anybody can sue anybody over anything. tro's are often granted on the basis of "let's restore the status quo since no harm would come to the restrained party and the real facts can be established at trial." everybody who is su= ed attempts to get every case dismissed, always, every time, no exceptions. m= ost cases that are settled out of court are settled due to skyrocketing legal costs and lack of will/resource/incentive to continue. MAPS no longer exis= ts, and noting that no settlement agreement by MAPS would be binding on its successor, that successor could blackhole exactis if they had any reason to. however, exactis isn't sending unsolicited bulk e-mail, so there's no reason for them to be blackholed as far as i know. > A TRO is a fact. A TRO is citable in subsequent litigation. A previous T= RO > helps establish that similar facts are sufficient to establish similar > claims. the basis of a tro is not judged as fact, only the issuance, which is known to be based on allegations that may or may not have been repeated at trial and that may or may not have swayed a judgement if/when presented at trial. i am not particularly worried about your repeated misstatements of the law since "proof by vigorous reassertion" is a well known form of crackpottery. anyone who hears your repeated misstatements about the law either knows from having been sued that it doesn't really work like you say, or knows enough to consult an attorney if they are sued, rather than trusting your opinions. > A TRO is a decision that the facts cited, if true, are sufficient to > establish the claims made and that the plaintiff can prevail absent false > facts or some defense. no. a tro can also be granted for the weaker cause of "the defendant would not be injured by restoring the status quo, and the cause of action brought by the plaintiff appears to refer to some actual laws, so we'll sort it out at trial." > MAPS and Vixie tried vigorously to have the case dismissed, using defenses > they also cited in their reply. Those efforts to have the case dismiss > failed. Those are facts, too. no. i find several distortions in the above statements. for example, every defendant in every case always seeks to have the case dismissed. they will use some defenses that will also be used at trial, but not necessarily all of them, and it's not a given that every response used when asking for dismissal will also be used at trial. you did say one true thing, the case was not dismissed. that is the only *fact* in the above-quoted text. > Exactis V. MAPS is basically a RICO case. The statute of limitations of > RICO is 10 years. Anyone who is injured by the RICO enterprise can bring= a > RICO case. Indeed, I think I have been injured by this enterprise. In > 1998, I was threatened on NANOG with physical harm in connection with this > RICO enterprise. This threat is a violation of the Hobbs Act (a RICO > predicate act). if some childish person subscribed to the nanog mailing list made a childish statement threatening you with bodily injury because they could no longer tolerate the vigorous reassertion of your various proofs, then that reflects poorly on the threatener, but not on nanog for running an open mailing list, nor on others subscribed to that open mailing list. > Mr. Conrad was a member of NANOG at that time, but he kept silent. nanog does not issue membership cards, and there is no membership agreement. to be a "member of nanog" is meaningless. someone can be a member of the nanog mailing list, and someone can pay an entrance fee to a nanog meeting, and someone can be invited to speak at nanog meetings. but it's not a membership society, and david cannot be held responsible for the childish threats you say were made against you by someone else on the nanog mailing list. > More injury from this enterprise has happened since 1998, some of it in > connection with the AXFR-clarify scheme, even. When a non-profit is > involved, economic harm can be the unlawful object of a RICO enterprise, = in > addition to economic profit. i'm curious. i wonder if you might indulge me on a framing question. when= i found out that BIND4 and some early BIND8 servers were unwilling to accept perfectly valid AXFR's from the Microsoft NT 3.51 Resource Kit due to stupid bugs in BIND, and i fixed those bugs so that BIND would do what the RFCs said and so that Microsoft's customers would stop complaining to Microsoft, what role do you think all this played in the "AXFR-clarify scheme"? do you think i was misdirecting folks, trying to gain trust and credibility, before clamping down on the industry with my iron claw? (i really do want to know= .) > So, during the same time as events of Exactis V. MAPS, during the period = of > the AXFR-clarify events (2000-2003), ... you have not even tried to show any connection between the exactis/maps law- suit and the axfr-clarify issue. is that an oversight, or are you honestly unable to imagine some way in which the AXFR-clarify scheme and the lawsuit are connected? (i think i remember you saying, years ago, that there was a connection, so, i'm assuming that this is an oversight on your part.) > ... Mr. Conrad was in the same office as Paul Vixie, overseeing in the > AXFR-clarify scheme involving false statements (the fact that there were = no > wire changes in AXFR-clarify) that people relied on (the members of the I= ETF > WG). Nominum, ISC and UltraDNS were the benefactors of that scheme. so, the connection between the AXFR-clarify scheme and the lawsuit is that david benefitted from the one while observing me closely during the other? > Without commenting on whether any laws were broken, there are clearly > ethical problems and serious misconduct of IETF officials and other IETF > members, including Mr. Conrad. you keep using that word: "clearly." i do not think it means what you think it means. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 24 04:35:17 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHyUP-0007Ry-3K; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 04:35:17 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JHyUM-000793-MB; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 04:35:17 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHyNo-000MPZ-VZ for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:28:28 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [192.134.4.11] (helo=mx2.nic.fr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JHyNm-000MPC-1T for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:28:27 +0000 Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id DBEAC1C00D8; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:28:24 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id D71B01C009F; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:28:24 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id D40DF58EBED; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:28:24 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:28:24 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: David Conrad Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: IANA change tracking (Was: Note 2.1.1.b was Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt Message-ID: <20080124092824.GA27722@nic.fr> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-5-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 On Wed, Jan 23, 2008 at 11:35:19AM -0800, David Conrad wrote a message of 38 lines which said: > If I told you, it would expose IANA's nefarious plans for global > domination through subtle changes in the IANA registries and then > I'd have to kill you. :-) To go back to practical matters, this is a good opportunity to remind IANA that a way to easily track the changes on IANA registries would be most welcome. The very minimum would be a syndication feed of the registries (using RFC 4287) plus one feed one for every registry. Ideally, we would need a complete time-travelling machine (may be something as simple as a VCS + ViewVC) to access the IANA registries at any time in the past. Do not tell me you are working on it, I know. This is just a reminder that users want it. 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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 24 09:23:10 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JI2yz-0008WC-Sx; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:23:09 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JI2yy-0005iT-80; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:23:09 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JI2s7-000PYm-VH for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 14:16:03 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JI2s4-000PYI-Ek for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 14:16:02 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.106] (hlid.ogud.com [66.92.146.160]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0OEFKFH001144; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:15:23 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20080124092824.GA27722@nic.fr> References: <20080124092824.GA27722@nic.fr> Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:09:39 -0500 To: Stephane Bortzmeyer From: Edward Lewis Subject: Re: IANA change tracking (Was: Note 2.1.1.b was Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt Cc: David Conrad , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bdc523f9a54890b8a30dd6fd53d5d024 At 10:28 +0100 1/24/08, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: >To go back to practical matters, this is a good opportunity to remind >IANA that a way to easily track the changes on IANA registries would >be most welcome. This is akin to the discussion on some other list about delegation checking. The connection is that at some basic level, all registries are the same. They associate identifiers with meanings. Whether it is domain names with information about the network, address ranges with responsible parties, license plates with automobile owners, or protocol parameter values with semantics, there is a common thread. For that reason I think it is unrealistic to desire IANA track changes - interpreting this as IANA ought to make sure that the registrations are up to date, just as it has become unrealistic for large domain name registries to track lameness (there's a whole thread on that, if you disagree with my assertion here, realize I am stating this as justification for why I believe IANA checking is unrealistic not trying to flog the issue once more here). As with other registries, it is up to the registrants (wrt to IANA's DNS ones, mostly the IETF) to keep the data up to date. Which is what we are doing now. Perhaps my saying there was a mistake at IANA was said in the wrong way. Note I put the word in quotes. It wasn't a mistake IANA performed but some there along the way it seems like some thing got dropped along the way. >The very minimum would be a syndication feed of the registries (using >RFC 4287) plus one feed one for every registry. Seriously, as an aggregate (I suppose) there are frequent changes to IANA registries but if you filter down to the registries you care about (as a DNS'er or as a SMTP'er, etc.) it isn't that often and for the most part your life wouldn't change if there was a change. Do you really want a syndicated feed of all the changes? I can't imagine anyone having enough time in the day to care to check it. >Ideally, we would need a complete time-travelling machine (may be >something as simple as a VCS + ViewVC) to access the IANA registries >at any time in the past. The only registries that maintain a history of registrations are the ones that track owners of houses and land. My house address' previous owners are always known (that title search thing I paid for at closing). But I don't know of an Internet registry that maintains a history - at least on-line - and DNS, WhoIs, EPP, etc., have never given a thought to journalling. >Do not tell me you are working on it, I know. This is just a reminder >that users want it. I can put it on paper with a word from our CEO if >it helps you to get budget from ICANN. What I'm writing pertains more to IANA than DNS, but I have spent a considerable amount of time to see that the IANA registries for DNS are up to date. For the most part they are. I have been frustrated at times with getting some seemingly obvious fixes in at times, not always the fault of IANA's bureaucracy. But progress is made at times. This isn't a high priority personal crusade for me. I'm acting as an actor of a DNS protocol registry registrant, the IETF, to get our corner up to date. I'm not trying to criticize IANA, expand it's mission, or blame it for social ills. I'd just like to clean up what is there so that the next generation of DNS implementers will have a set of accurate registries as a byproduct of trying to get the AXFR clarify draft done. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 NeuStar Think glocally. Act confused. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 24 09:23:19 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JI2z9-0001Cq-Km; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:23:19 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JI2z9-0005ie-94; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:23:19 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JI2rq-000PV2-EQ for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 14:15:46 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JI2rj-000PTr-Gu for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 14:15:40 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.106] (hlid.ogud.com [66.92.146.160]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0OEFKFJ001144; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:15:36 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:14:25 -0500 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Edward Lewis Subject: Thanks to the other commenters on axfr-06 Cc: ed.lewis@neustar.biz Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 I wanted to send an on-list thanks to those that have been sending me edits off-list, and use the opportunity to extend the invitation to others to send things in. And to those who noted - I do have a bad habit of omitting words here and there. In the 8th grade I got a D in typing and have never gotten to be fast enough with my stream of consciousness. My apologies for that. (And I did write the -06 in about two business days, hammering away as fast as my hands could go.) I am planning to collect up the edits and issues and submit a -07 in about anther 10 days, Feb 4, balancing getting this done with allowing enough changes to roll in to make it worth reading -07. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 NeuStar Think glocally. Act confused. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 24 09:24:09 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JI2zx-0006Aq-MU; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:24:09 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JI2zx-0005jP-BW; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:24:09 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JI2uQ-000Psb-TN for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 14:18:26 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JI2uE-000Pqk-Ka for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 14:18:17 +0000 Received: from Puki.ogud.com (gatt.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.6]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0OEIAtB001170 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:18:10 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ogud@ogud.com) Message-Id: <200801241418.m0OEIAtB001170@ogud.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:17:55 -0500 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3lafur?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Gu=F0mundsson?= /DNSEXT chair Subject: Stay on topic we have real work to do Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 10.20.30.6 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f During the last few days some people have been posting off-topic messages. Conspiracy theories, innuendos and other non technical posts may lead to your posting privileges be revoked without further warning. WG members please ignore the trolls, one reply to the first of their postings stating they are off base is sufficient. Olafur PS: "some people" you know who you are, I'm saving you the embarrassment of being named. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 24 10:08:48 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JI3hA-0005LH-65; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:08:48 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JI3h8-0006Zx-Eb; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:08:48 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JI3aU-0006bc-H2 for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:01:54 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, USER_IN_WHITELIST_TO autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [192.134.4.11] (helo=mx2.nic.fr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JI3aR-0006ZM-JG for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:01:53 +0000 Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 7F3241C012A; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:01:48 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A92A1C0101; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:01:48 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E48358EBED; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:01:48 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:01:48 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: George Michaelson Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: version -01 of draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile sent Message-ID: <20080124150148.GA14937@nic.fr> References: <9146D840-1654-4D32-8BFC-2F14CD1420CC@apnic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9146D840-1654-4D32-8BFC-2F14CD1420CC@apnic.net> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-5-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 On Sun, Jan 20, 2008 at 05:14:18PM +1000, George Michaelson wrote a message of 94 lines which said: > Comments from Mark Andrews, Florien Weimer and Stephane Bortzmeyer > weren't incorporated at this time, because I couldn't see > convergence on a clear, non-normative text change in the discussion. My comments about TCP? For the record, my opinion is that a name server MUST offer (EDNS0 *or* TCP) access (or be declared broken because it cannot handle large data which will become more and more common). > An ID issues tracker is obviously needed. +1 I will record this issue as soon as we have tracker. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 24 10:14:48 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JI3my-0006a6-HI; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:14:48 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JI3my-0006fj-0K; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:14:48 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JI3j9-0007lM-Fi for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:10:51 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, USER_IN_WHITELIST_TO autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [192.134.4.11] (helo=mx2.nic.fr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JI3j3-0007kO-DB for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:10:49 +0000 Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 578191C011C; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:10:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52A691C00E6; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:10:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FF0E58EBED; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:10:44 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:10:44 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: George Michaelson Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: MUST for the implementation of for the operator? (Was: version -01 of draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile sent Message-ID: <20080124151044.GA15010@nic.fr> References: <9146D840-1654-4D32-8BFC-2F14CD1420CC@apnic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9146D840-1654-4D32-8BFC-2F14CD1420CC@apnic.net> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-5-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f On Sun, Jan 20, 2008 at 05:14:18PM +1000, George Michaelson wrote a message of 94 lines which said: > I have just submitted a 01 revision of > draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol- profile, It seems we still have a meta-issue. Is the document mostly for implementors or mostly for operations people? From the fact that it is on this WG, or from notes like in section 1 ("In particular, normative directions on features..."), one could say that it is mostly for implementors. But it also has a normative reference to RFCs 1033 (a very old purely "operations" RFC), 1912, 2010... And the text on TCP, section 4.2.2, says: > The server MAY accept TCP connections. which is very different from the section on EDNS0 (which says that implementation MUST support it for name servers MAY disable it). Why not a MUST here? Every name server software I know supports TCP, even djbdns (http://cr.yp.to/djbdns/tcp.html). If we make a document for implementors, a MUST here seems reasonable. PS: an editorial comment: it's the first time I see this document repository in IETF references: [NLNet-1] Wijngaards, W., "NSD Requirements and Specifications", July 2006, . -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 24 10:26:09 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JI3xw-0005s3-OJ; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:26:09 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JI3xw-0007Ty-7N; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:26:08 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JI3tH-0009Pw-Kd for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:21:19 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, USER_IN_ALL_SPAM_TO autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JI3tB-0009PA-BF for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:21:17 +0000 Received: from Puki.ogud.com (ns.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.6]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0OFKwLV001641; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:20:59 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ogud@ogud.com) Message-Id: <200801241520.m0OFKwLV001641@ogud.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:20:45 -0500 To: Dean Anderson , Edward Lewis From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3lafur?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Gu=F0mundsson?= /DNSEXT chair Subject: Re: AXFR "clarify" Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 At 00:10 22/01/2008, Dean Anderson wrote: >On Thu, 17 Jan 2008, Edward Lewis wrote: > > > Here's a work topic I'd like to get moving, something that got > > stalled almost 5 years ago. > >I agree that AXFR clarification is an important subject. > >The old draft indeed gives clues as to the ambiguities, but its contents >are completely bogus. The AXFR protocol should be clarified as widely >implemented, not as it was altered by the Bind companies in 2000-2002. > > > With the permission of the chair and working group, I'd like to take > > stab at rewriting the draft, in the spirit of the wildcard "clarify" > > document. > >Short version: > >No offense to Ed, but I'd be gravely concerned about having anyone from >UltraDNS/Neustar, ISC or Nominum involved in producing this document. >New author, please. Dean, please give Ed a chance to make mistakes before complaining about him :-) Just because he happens to work with someone you do not like/trust is not sufficient grounds for removal of editing token. DNSEXT chair's looked hard for a person to edit this document. In the group of qualified candidates and ones that did not have known "conflict of interest" there where only few people available. Number of people I (and Olaf) approached, over the last year or so, have declined to take on this task on because they did not want to deal with the venomous e-mail that this topic has generated in the past. Over the years Ed, has shown ability to navigate difficult corner cases in DNS and produce documents of high quality, see RFC3070 and RFC4592. If there are issues with -06 send them to the WG and/or editor and judge the process based on results. For the record as I have "conflict-of-interest" on this document, I will have hands off approach to it, I have given Ed full control of the document. When/if time comes for an WGLC I will ask for a WG member to volunteer to serve as a "special master" to run the WGLC process. Olafur -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 24 10:31:20 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JI42y-0001yy-4b; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:31:20 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JI42x-0007aU-KL; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:31:20 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JI3yZ-000ABZ-M7 for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:26:47 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, USER_IN_WHITELIST_TO autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [192.134.4.11] (helo=mx2.nic.fr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JI3yS-000AAH-Qg for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:26:46 +0000 Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id E15851C011F; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:26:36 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC4ED1C0101; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:26:36 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id D961D58EBED; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:26:36 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:26:36 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: George Michaelson Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: version -01 of draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile sent Message-ID: <20080124152636.GA16563@nic.fr> References: <9146D840-1654-4D32-8BFC-2F14CD1420CC@apnic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <9146D840-1654-4D32-8BFC-2F14CD1420CC@apnic.net> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-5-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 On Sun, Jan 20, 2008 at 05:14:18PM +1000, George Michaelson wrote a message of 94 lines which said: > I have just submitted a 01 revision of > draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol- profile, Remarks on the content: > {non normative} The zone file format as specified in [RFC 1035 > (5.1)] is optional. It is used as a common presentation format > only. I suggest: The zone file format as partially specified in [RFC 1035 (5.1)] is optional. It is used as a common presentation format only. Rationale: http://www.psg.com/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2006/msg01025.html > If delegations are present and glue information is required [...] > [RFC 2181 (Section 5.2 para 2)] "Required" is not well defined (think of loops between two TLD, for instance, as in http://www.ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.199x/msg03693.html). (And the reference to RFC 2181 is not clear for me, it does not talk about glues at this place.) > * OPCODE 1 (IQUERY) MUST result in RCODE=4 NOTIMPL [RFC 3425]. > {has this actually been deprecated?} It seems so. The RFC 3425 says "Therefore IQUERY is now obsolete, and name servers SHOULD return a "Not Implemented" error when an IQUERY request is received." Is is acceptable to change the SHOULD in a MUST? The RFC is five years old so anyone should have upgraded since :-) > * QDCOUNT!=1 SHOULD result in RCODE=1 FORMERR A reference to http://www3.tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dnsext-edns1 ? -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 24 11:03:55 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JI4YV-00050J-1H; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 11:03:55 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JI4YS-0000I2-Mz; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 11:03:55 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JI4TJ-000ECP-VI for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:58:33 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [207.5.72.225] (helo=EXHUB016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JI4TG-000EBs-R3 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:58:32 +0000 Received: from EXVMBX016-2.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.172]) by EXHUB016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.225]) with mapi; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 07:58:30 -0800 From: David Conrad To: Stephane Bortzmeyer CC: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org" Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 07:58:28 -0800 Subject: Re: IANA change tracking (Was: Note 2.1.1.b was Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt Thread-Topic: IANA change tracking (Was: Note 2.1.1.b was Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt Thread-Index: Achea4egeFUxnSJRSGi6/vZsToN6ewANm3Fz Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20080124092824.GA27722@nic.fr> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Stephane, On 1/24/08 1:28 AM, "Stephane Bortzmeyer" wrote: > To go back to practical matters, this is a good opportunity to remind > IANA that a way to easily track the changes on IANA registries would > be most welcome. Understood. > Do not tell me you are working on it, I know. This is just a reminder > that users want it. I can put it on paper with a word from our CEO if > it helps you to get budget from ICANN. I appreciate the reminder. Right now, IANA staff have been focusing on getting the long delayed new web site pushed out (REAL soon now). We've also been moving forward on the XMLization effort with the help of Marc Blanchet and Viagenie. And publishing stats (click the IANA link on the left of ). And meeting the IETF SLAs. And finishing up the root zone management automation. And getting a demonstration/experimental root zone (along with the zones IANA i= s responsible for) signed (zone transfer open at ns.iana.org and see ). And, and, and (:-)). Publishin= g change tracking info via some mechanism is on IANA's (long) list of things to do, the only question is what the priority should be. With that said, however, I never say no to offers of help explaining IANA's budgetary needs... :-) Regards, -drc -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 24 11:18:06 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JI4mD-0006kI-RJ; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 11:18:05 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JI4mC-0001m8-AD; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 11:18:05 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JI4gw-000Fos-6w for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:12:38 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [207.5.72.164] (helo=EXHUB016-2.exch016.msoutlookonline.net) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JI4gt-000FoE-Hp for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:12:36 +0000 Received: from EXVMBX016-2.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.172]) by EXHUB016-2.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.164]) with mapi; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 08:12:34 -0800 From: David Conrad To: Edward Lewis CC: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org" Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 08:12:31 -0800 Subject: Re: IANA change tracking (Was: Note 2.1.1.b was Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt Thread-Topic: IANA change tracking (Was: Note 2.1.1.b was Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt Thread-Index: Achek6cJAHxchm6bR4+L76lLPYR3PQAEETU5 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Ed, On 1/24/08 6:09 AM, "Edward Lewis" wrote: > But I don't know of an Internet registry that maintains a > history - at least on-line - and DNS, WhoIs, EPP, etc., have never > given a thought to journalling. Since we have the registries in version control, we actually do have a journal so that's not a big deal. Back when I was IANA GM, I had put on ou= r 'to do' list publishing the diffs, etc., but never got around to figuring out the best way to do it. I would agree in that I wouldn't imagine there would be a lot people interested in watching all of the O(100) changes/month, but my thought with a feed is folks could automate updating their copies of the registries. I figure a viewer would be useful, if only to have an easy way to figure out who to blame for a mistake (:-)). > What I'm writing pertains more to IANA than DNS, but I have spent a > considerable amount of time to see that the IANA registries for DNS > are up to date. A separate issue and I (for one) would like to publicly thank you for the efforts. So thanks! Regards, -drc -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 24 13:04:30 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JI6RC-0007sy-AO; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:04:30 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JI6RA-0004hm-AD; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:04:30 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JI6IB-00013u-U0 for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:55:11 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HEADER_SPAM, RDNS_NONE,USER_IN_WHITELIST_TO autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JI6I7-00013S-PB for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:55:10 +0000 Received: from hlid.ogud.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0OHt05A002906 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 12:55:00 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers@hlid.ogud.com) Received: (from namedroppers@localhost) by hlid.ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id m0OHt0pi002905 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 12:55:00 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers) Received: from [213.178.172.147] (helo=WOTAN.TR-Sys.de) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JGuvq-00075c-AV for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 11:35:17 +0000 Received: from ZEUS.TR-Sys.de by w. with ESMTP ($Revision: 1.37.109.26 $/16.3) id AA044655248; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 12:34:08 +0100 Received: (from ah@localhost) by z.TR-Sys.de (8.9.3 (PHNE_25183)/8.7.3) id MAA03051; Mon, 21 Jan 2008 12:34:06 +0100 (MEZ) From: Alfred =?hp-roman8?B?SM5uZXM=?= Message-Id: <200801211134.MAA03051@TR-Sys.de> Subject: draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile-00 To: ggm@apnic.net Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 12:34:06 +0100 (MEZ) Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org X-Mailer: ELM [$Revision: 1.17.214.3 $] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=hp-roman8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 66.92.146.160 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ec7c6dab5a62df223002ae71b5179d41 [ Moderators note: Post was moderated, either because it was posted by a non-subscriber, or because it was over 20K. With the massive amount of spam, it is easy to miss and therefore delete relevant posts by non-subscribers. Please fix your subscription addresses. ] Hello, after browsing through the Internet-Draft authored/edited by you, draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile-00, I'd like to submit a few comments, supplying some additional information, addressing textual flaws I found in that memo, and suggesting a few additional topics that should be addressed. (1) Section 1.1, 3rd paragraph -- typo s/the documents normative language/the document's normative language/ ^ (2) Section 3 (2a) Missing full-stops at the end of paragraph 2 & 4. (Also applicable to some subsequents sections/paragraphs.) (2b) The last paragraph od Section 3 says: {new normative language} Processing if dns names in US-ASCII range MUST be case insensitive. [RFC 1035 (2.3.3)] also see [RFC 1034 (3.1)] There are multiple issues: - s/if/of/ - s/dns/DNS/ - Processing must be done by *label*, not necessarily in a homogenous manner for an entire DNS name -- e.g., there could be binary labels in a domain name. Although this is currently not very important because the original use of binary labels for IPv6 has been deprecated, there might be other uses or new label types in the future. Therefore, I suggest to unambiguously state: | {new normative language} Processing of DNS 'ASCII labels' MUST be | case insensitive. See [RFC 1035 (2.3.3)], [RFC 1034 (3.1), and | [RFC4343] (3.1). Accordingly, a reference '[RFC4343]' to RFC 4343 needs to be added to Section 12 of the draft. (3) Section 4.1 (3a) (don't know where to insert) RFC 2308, section 5 has normatively changed the semantics of the SOA.MINIMUM TTL field to become the 'Negative Caching TTL'. Nevertheless, I frequently see zone files giving the old interpretation of SOA.MINIMUM in a comment, and I fear that this only is a symptom of outdated thinking, burned into the brains of DNS implementors as well. Therefore, I suggest to emphasize this change from STD13 in this roadmap document. (3b) 4.1.1 -- Re: RFC 2535 RFC 2535 has been formally obsoleted by RFCs 4033..4035 (and as listed in the RFC index), but in fact some parts of RFC 2535 are not considered obsolete. This is quite confusing, in particular because there are other documents equally considered still valid that make normative references to RFC 2535 -- in particular RFC 2931 ('SIG(0)'), and RFC 3445 that also has been obsoleted by RFCs 4033..4035, but contains important updates to RFC 2535 still valid for / defining the non-obsolete parts of RFC 2535. There's a real need for a new, standalone specification containing the non-deprecated parts of RFC 2535, perhaps integrated with an updated version of RFC 2931, to make an end to the existing confusion. Such document should also incorporate (and obsolete) RFC 3445 and delineate the (diminishing) applicability of the KEY RR, according to current wisdom. (3c) 4.1.1 -- item 4. The draft says: 4. The TTLs of all RRs in an RRSet MUST be the same. {RFC reference required} ^^^^^^^^ The normative text you are looking for is in RFC 2181, section 5.2. (4) Section 4.2 The most frequent trouble with DNS I found in the last two years is the inappropriate firewall filtering of DNS requests. While it is common practice for (recursive) DNS resolvers to use port 53 for listening for queries *and* sending queries, there is no requirement to do so, in any DNS related RFC ever published. DNS resolvers behind a NAT box with port translation cannot enforce the source port of the DNS queries they emit, as seen in the public Internet. Furthermore, there are a lot of upcoming recommendations for source port randomization as a partial defense against blind off-path attacks. Therefore, filtering DNS queries on source port is a major obstacle to connectivity, and it does not add anything to the security of the sites doing so. (BTW: M$ is one particular site doing so since months, such making it impossible for me to contact IETFers with email addresses served by these DNS servers, including hotmail.com!) I suggest to add a sentence to Section 4.2, pointing out that the source port for DNS queries is not restricted in any way by all existing DNS RFCs (for UDP and TCP as well). (5) Section 4.3 -- Re: OPCODE 1 IQUERY indeed has been *obsoleted* by RFC 3425. (6) Section 4.6 It should be noted that the use of MB, MG, MR, and MINFO has been deprecated long ago, in favor of MX. Definite RFC ref. is 2821, and statement reinforced in upcoming 2821bis (IETF LC passed, currently in final IESG processing). (7) Section 4.8 Document is unclear as to whether it is intended to cover DNSSEC in the sense of RFC 4033..4035. (I'd like to recall that DNS transaction secority has been declared part of basic DNS, no more part of DNSSEC -- as it was in RFC 2535 ff.) (8) Section 12.2 In Section 12.2, the citations [RFC1811] and [RFC1816] have been truncated; in both cases, the document title is "U.S", should be: "U.S. Government Internet Domain Names". (9) Appendix A (9a) RFC 1348 RFC 1348 was first obsoleted by RFC 1637, then by RFC 1706. This is clearly stated in the heading of RFC 1637 and in the RFC index. The entry for RFC 1637 already is present in the list in Appendix A, yet, the entry for RFC 1348 should be amended accordingly. (9b) RFC 1712 Although RFC 1876 semantically is a replacement for RFC 1712, it has not formally obsoleted RFC 1712, and the RFC index still lists both RFCs as current. Even more, RFC 1876 does not mention RFC 1712 or RRtype 27 at all, and RRtype 27 is not indicated as deprecated or obsolete in the IANA registry. It either should be considered to ask for a Protocol Action by the IESG to retrofit the 'obsoletes' relationship 1712-->1876 and annotate RRtype 27 as obsolete in the IANA registry, or to omit the entry for RFC 1712 fron Appendix A. (9c) RFC 2065 In line with other entries, the entry for RFC 2065 should be amended by ", then by RFC 4033 through 4035". Best regards, Alfred HÎnes. -- +------------------------+--------------------------------------------+ | TR-Sys Alfred Hoenes | Alfred Hoenes Dipl.-Math., Dipl.-Phys. | | Gerlinger Strasse 12 | Phone: (+49)7156/9635-0, Fax: -18 | | D-71254 Ditzingen | E-Mail: ah@TR-Sys.de | +------------------------+--------------------------------------------+ -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 24 13:05:04 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JI6Rk-00083c-EQ; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:05:04 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JI6Rh-0004iW-RT; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:05:04 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JI6Iv-00019P-H7 for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:55:57 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HEADER_SPAM, RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JI6Iq-00016r-DT for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:55:55 +0000 Received: from hlid.ogud.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0OHtdBt002923 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 12:55:39 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers@hlid.ogud.com) Received: (from namedroppers@localhost) by hlid.ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id m0OHtdPO002922 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 12:55:39 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers) Received: from [213.178.172.147] (helo=WOTAN.TR-Sys.de) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JI0o1-000BIx-L1 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 12:03:46 +0000 Received: from ZEUS.TR-Sys.de by w. with ESMTP ($Revision: 1.37.109.26 $/16.3) id AA062566154; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:02:34 +0100 Received: (from ah@localhost) by z.TR-Sys.de (8.9.3 (PHNE_25183)/8.7.3) id NAA10663; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:02:32 +0100 (MEZ) From: Alfred =?hp-roman8?B?SM5uZXM=?= Message-Id: <200801241202.NAA10663@TR-Sys.de> Subject: draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06 To: ed.lewis@neustar.biz Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:02:32 +0100 (MEZ) Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org X-Mailer: ELM [$Revision: 1.17.214.3 $] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=hp-roman8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: aec2475b197ed9c8908117d8fbf9ee2e [ Moderators note: Post was moderated, either because it was posted by a non-subscriber, or because it was over 20K. With the massive amount of spam, it is easy to miss and therefore delete relevant posts by non-subscribers. Please fix your subscription addresses. ] Hello, I'd like to submit a few comments on the Internet-Draft authored/edited by you, draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06, addressing textual flaws I found in that memo, and pointing out other areas of concern. The items below are presented in textual order. To give more context, sometimes I quote larger blocks of text literally and show the replacement proposed using the shorthand notation: --- I use change bars ('|' in column 1) and occasionally up/down pointing marker lines ('^^^'/'vvv') to emphasize the location of textual issues and/or proposed corrections. Quoted original (still un-indented text) will be indented by one character position to distinguish it from my comments. Modified text has been re-adjusted to match RFC formatting rules, where appropriate. I also try to accomodate published RFC-Ed policy on style and punctuation etc. in my proposals. (0) General comment I really appreciate resuming this effort. That was overly due now! (1) Section 1.2 -- textual improvements I suggest to apply the following changes to correct and improve the language of the 4th paragraph of Section 1.2 : "Turnkey" DNS implementation refers to custom made, single use implementations of DNS. Such implementations consist of software the use the DNS protocol message format but does not conform to entire range of DNS functionality. --- "Turnkey" DNS implementation refers to custom made, single use implementations of DNS. Such implementations consist of software | that uses the DNS protocol message format but does not conform to the ^^ ^ ^^^^ entire range of DNS functionality. (2) Section 1.4 -- textual improvement I suggest to apply the following change to improve the language of Section 1.4 : [...]. This document will update those sections, invalidate at least one part of that definition. The goal of this document is define AXFR as it exists, or should exist, currently. --- vvvv | [...]. This document will update those sections, and invalidate at least one part of that definition. The goal of this document is to define AXFR as it exists, or should exist, currently. ^^^ (3) Section 2 (3a) 3rd paragraph I suggest to make the style of quotations to other RFCs consistent within the document and with common use: - no embedded spaces in ref. tags, - one space between "RFC" and the number in prose. I.e.: s/[RFC 1996]/[RFC1996]/ ^ s/ RFC1996/ RFC 1996/ etc. ... Furthermore, although linguistically considered as poor style, refering to RFCs by only giving the ref. tags might in fact enhance the readability of the text. Additionally, I suggest to not forget the DNS IANA Considerations document, BCP 42, RFC 2929, as the source of reserving OPCODE=3 ; perhaps this detail is not even worth being mentioned, just listing [RFC2929] might suffice -- an entry for RFC 2929 needs to be added to section 12.1 anyway. Therefore, I suggest to change the current text, The basic format of an AXFR message is the DNS message as defined in RFC 1035, Section 4 ("MESSAGES") [RFC 1035], updated by the following documents: RFC3425 [RFC3425], RFC1996 [RFC 1996], RFC2136 [RFC2136], RFC2671 [RFC2671], RFC2845 [RFC2845], RFC2930 [RFC2930], RFC4035 [RFC4035], RFC4635 [RFC4635]. In addition, one change is credited to IANA, the reserving of OPCODE = 3. to either: The basic format of an AXFR message is the DNS message as defined in RFC 1035 [RFC1035], Section 4 ("MESSAGES"), updated by the following documents: RFC 3425 [RFC3425], RFC 1996 [RFC1996], RFC 2136 [RFC2136], RFC 2671 [RFC2671], RFC 2845 [RFC2845], RFC 2930 [RFC2930], RFC 4035 [RFC4035], RFC 4635 [RFC4635], and the related IANA considerations in BCP 42 [RFC2929]. or: The basic format of an AXFR message is the DNS message as defined in [RFC1035], Section 4 ("MESSAGES"), updated by the following documents: [RFC3425], [RFC1996], [RFC2136], [RFC2671], [RFC2845], [RFC2930], [RFC4035], [RFC4635], and the related IANA considerations in BCP 42 [RFC2929]. Similar changes should be applied to other parts of the text in a self-consistent manner. Finally, I suggest moving the second pararaph (with message length considerations) behind this paragraph or to the end of the section, because it contains more specific information. (3b) final paragraph -- typo Please correct the typo in the last paragraph of Section 2: Field names used in this document will correspond to the names as the appear in the IANA registry for DNS Header Flags [DNS-FLAGS]. --- Field names used in this document will correspond to the names as | they appear in the IANA registry for DNS Header Flags [DNS-FLAGS]. ^ (4) Section 2.1.1 (4a) I generally suggest to avoid too much terse, telegram like style, and to use more expressive language instead. For instance, update Note 2.1.1.b as follows: Current text: Note 2.1.1.b The value in this field has no meaning in the context of AXFR. For the client, RECOMMENDED that the value be zero. For the server, RECOMMENDED ignoring this value. New text: Note 2.1.1.b. The value in this field has no meaning in the context | of AXFR. For the client, it is RECOMMENDED that the value be | zero. For the server, it is RECOMMENDED ignoring this value. or even shorter: Note 2.1.1.b. The value in this field has no meaning in the context | of AXFR. The client SHOULD set that field to zero, and the server | SHOULD ignore its value. (I will not mention/correct similar occurences below unless the affected text needs to be quoted for other reasons as well.) (4b) IMHO, the text regarding the 'Z' bit is inappropriate. In the early days of "The Net", unused fields customarily have been labelled 'Z', as a mnemonic for "SHOULD be set to Zero and ignored on receipt"; this was not meant as a name or identifier for a field. The terminology used in the IETF generally has evolved since the publication of RFCs 1034/1035 to use the term 'reserved' for such fields with (still) unassigned semantics dedicated to possible future use by protocol extensions. Hence, in current parlance, this field is not perceived as being 'assigned', and assigning a name and semantics to it should be left to future standardization -- cf. BCP 42, RFC 2929, Section 2.1 (p.3). The IANA entry listing this field as 'reserved' IHMO therefore perfectly reflects the status of this field, and the draft should not complain about it. I therefore suggest to change the draft text, Note 2.1.1.c The Z bit is no longer registered with IANA (no document cited for change). RECOMMENDED client set to 0, server MUST ignore. to say: | Note 2.1.1.c. The bit labelled 'Z' in legacy DNS RFCs is currently | unassigned and reserved. Clients SHOULD set it to 0, servers MUST | ignore it. (5) Section 2.1.2 -- textual improvement I suggest changing: The Query section of the AXFR query MUST conform to section 4.1.2 of RFC 1035 contain the following values: --- The Query section of the AXFR query MUST conform to section 4.1.2 of | RFC 1035, and contain the following values: ^^^^^ (6) Section 2.2.1 (6a) Regarding the 'Z' bit, I suggest to apply (4b) above to Note 2.2.1.d. (6b) I suggest the following textual enhancements, including the application of "rational quoting". Note 2.2.1.e If the implementation is implementing DNSSEC [RFC4033-5], this value MUST be set according to the rules in RFC 4035 [RFC4035], section 3.1.6, "The AD and CD Bits in an Authoritative Response." If the implementation is not implementing DNSSEC, then this value MUST be set to 0 an MUST be ignored. --- Note 2.2.1.e. | If the implementation supports DNSSEC [RFC4033] [RFC4034] ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^ | [RFC4035], this value MUST be set according to the rules in RFC ^^^^^^^ | 4035, section 3.1.6, "The AD and CD Bits in an Authoritative ^ Response". If the implementation does not support DNSSEC, then ^^^^^^^ | this value MUST be set to 0 and MUST be ignored on receipt. ^ ^^^^^^^^^^^ NOTE: I have expanded 'RFC4033-5' above; please see the final item (17) below for an alternative proposal. (7) Section 2.2.5 I suggest adding a comma for clarity: If the query included an EDNS0 OPT RR this section MAY include an OPT RR in reply. If the query had an empty Additional Section, this MUST be empty. A client MAY ignore the contents of this section. --- If the query included an EDNS0 OPT RR, this section MAY include an OPT RR in reply. If the query had an empty Additional Section, this MUST be empty. A client MAY ignore the contents of this section. (8) Section 3.1 (8a) 1st paragraph Please consistently use "rational quotation", and either always add the trailing period to section numbers quoted, or always omit it (preferred): In the answer section of AXFR response messages the resource records within a zone for the given serial number MUST appear. The definition of what belongs in a zone is described in RFC 1034, Section 4.2, "How the database is divided into zones", and in particular, section 4.2.1., "Technical considerations." --- | In the answer section of AXFR response messages, the resource records within a zone for the given serial number MUST appear. The definition of what belongs in a zone is described in RFC 1034, Section 4.2, "How the database is divided into zones", and in | particular, section 4.2.1, "Technical considerations". ^ ^^ (8b) 2nd paragraph Please correct the word omission: The first resource record of the first AXFR response message sent by the AXFR server MUST be the zone's SOA resource record. The last resource record of the final AXFR response message sent by the AXFR server MUST be the zone's SOA resource record. The order and grouping of all other records in the AXFR is arbitrary, but the AXFR server SHOULD group resource record sets together and transmit in the same AXFR message. --- The first resource record of the first AXFR response message sent by the AXFR server MUST be the zone's SOA resource record. The last resource record of the final AXFR response message sent by the AXFR server MUST be the zone's SOA resource record. The order and grouping of all other records in the AXFR is arbitrary, but the AXFR | server SHOULD group resource record sets together and transmit them in the same AXFR message. ^^^^^ Nevertheless, it should be noted that the final rule in the last sentence is incompatible with the subsequent paragraph: Unless the AXFR server knows that the AXFR client expects just one | resource record per AXFR response message, an AXFR server SHOULD | populate an AXFR response message with as many complete resource ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | records as will fit within the limited permissible message size. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^ This seems to be the better choice, for the sake of efficiency. Therfore, it might be better to simply shorten the 2nd paragraph to say: The first resource record of the first AXFR response message sent by the AXFR server MUST be the zone's SOA resource record. The last resource record of the final AXFR response message sent by the AXFR server MUST be the zone's SOA resource record. The order and grouping of all other records in the AXFR is arbitrary, but the AXFR | server SHOULD group resource record sets together. (9) Section 3.2 (9a) 1st paragraph The draft says: In RFC 1034, section 4.2.1, this text appears (keep in mind that the use of the word "should" in the quotation is exempt from the interpretation in section 1.1) "The RRs that describe cuts ... should be exactly the same as the corresponding RRs in the top node of the subzone." There has been some controversy over this statement and the impact on which NS resource records are included in a zone transfer. As far as I can recall, DNSSEC makes explicit provisions for deviations from this rule if either the parent zone or the delegated zone or both are secured by DNSSEC. This should at least be noted. I suggest to amend this paragraph to say: In RFC 1034, section 4.2.1, this text appears (keep in mind that the use of the word "should" in the quotation is exempt from the interpretation in section 1.1): "The RRs that describe cuts ... should be exactly the same as the corresponding RRs in the top node of the subzone." There has been some controversy over this statement and the impact on which NS resource records are included in a zone | transfer. Also, DNSSEC [RFC4033] [RFC4034] [RFC4035] specifies | particular Resource Records to be inserted at delegation points in | secure zones, and at the apex of secure zones, respectively, which | makes the above statement inappropriate. Furthermore, the note (in parentheses) on "should" is inappropriate because Section 1.1 only talks about uppercase "SHOULD", and might therefore better either be changed or omitted entirely: In RFC 1034, section 4.2.1, this text appears: "The RRs that describe cuts ... should be exactly the same as the corresponding RRs in the top node of the subzone." There has been some controversy over this statement and the impact on which NS resource records are included in a zone transfer. Also, DNSSEC [RFC4033] [RFC4034] [RFC4035] specifies particular Resource Records to be inserted at delegation points in secure zones, and at the apex of secure zones, respectively, which makes the above statement inappropriate. or: In RFC 1034, section 4.2.1, this text appears (keep in mind that the word "should" in the quotation is now deemed to be a "SHOULD" subject to the interpretation in section 1.1): "The RRs that describe cuts ... should be exactly the same as the corresponding RRs in the top node of the subzone." There has been some controversy over this statement and the impact on which NS resource records are included in a zone transfer. Also, DNSSEC [RFC4033] [RFC4034] [RFC4035] specifies particular Resource Records to be inserted at delegation points in secure zones, and at the apex of secure zones, respectively, which makes the above statement inappropriate. (9b) 2nd paragraph -- typo s/fueld/fuelled/ (9c) 5th paragraph -- word omisison The AXFR response MUST contain the cut point NS resource record set registered with the zone whether it agrees with the authoritative set or not. "Registered with" can interpreted as residing in the zone file of the zone for the particular serial number (in zone file environments) or as any data configured to be in the zone, statically or dynamically. --- The AXFR response MUST contain the cut point NS resource record set registered with the zone whether it agrees with the authoritative set | or not. "Registered with" can be interpreted as residing in the zone ^^^ file of the zone for the particular serial number (in zone file environments) or as any data configured to be in the zone, statically or dynamically. (10) Section 3.3 -- enhancement I suggest inserting the word "quoted" : As in the previous section, RFC 1034, section 4.2.1, provides guidance and rationale for the inclusion of glue records as part of an AXFR transfer. [...] --- As quoted in the previous section, RFC 1034, section 4.2.1, provides guidance and rationale for the inclusion of glue records as part of an AXFR transfer. [...] (11) Section 4 The draft says: AXFR sessions are restricted by RFC 1034, section 4.3.5's "because accuracy is essential, TCP or some other reliable protocol must be used for AXFR requests." With the addition of EDNS0 and applications which |require many small zones such in web hosting and some ENUM scenarios, ^ |AXFR sessions on UDP are now possible and desirable. In addition, it is |conceivable to interleave requests for other data or AXFRs of other |zones during one session in TCP if the ID values are consistently |maintained. (11a) Firstly "such in web hosting" should be "such as in web hosting". (11b) More importantly, I am in serious doubt whether the capability added by the final sentence is worth the protocol complications it requires. To my knowledge (admittedly a bit aged), typical AXFR client implementations anyway perform the AXFR and local database update in a dedicated process or thread that does not also perform other DNS queries. Therefore, a dedicated TCP connection will be used for one or more AXFRs. Serial reuse of a TCP connection for multiple AXFRs (AXFR chaining on a connection) or even using a (semi-)persistent TCP connection for other queries/responses in a serialized manner therefore might be a reasonable feature that can be supported without protocol complications and/or serious backwards compatibility issues. On the other hand, interleaving multi-message AXFR responses with other DNS query/response traffic seems to be unnecessary and unnecessarily complicated. Keep in mind that query/response traffic over UDP can be sustained in parallel without a need for this extension. Also, paragraph 2 of Section 5 indicates that regularly, the set of AXFR clients allowed will be restricted very much, and other queries between sibling authoritative servers needing TCP are considered less likely. That said, my subsequent change proposals nevertheless will carry on support for this protocol extension. (12) Section 4.1 The last paragraph of Section 4.1 says: An AXFR server MAY opt to respond to other queries while responding the |original AXFR query that opened the connection. An AXFR server MAY ^^^^^^^^^^^ ignore or even close the connection if there are two outstanding AXFR queries for the same zone on a connection, as this could be evidence of an abusive AXFR client. AFAICS, there's no requirement at all that the particular AXFR query opens the connection. As indicated above, the serialized exchange of various transactions on a more-or-less persistent TCP connection can be easily supported (and it reduces connection management overhaed). Therefore, if additionally and even more supporting interleaved responses, this cannot be a requirement, and hence the text should be changed to say, e.g.: An AXFR server MAY opt to respond to other queries while responding to an AXFR query on the same TCP connection. An AXFR server MAY ignore or even close the connection if there are two outstanding AXFR queries for the same zone on a connection, as this could be evidence of an abusive AXFR client. (13) Section 4.2 (14a) 1st paragraph s/in to one DNS message/into one DNS message/ (14b) 2nd paragraph -- textual improvements I suggest to make the text more precise and use more suggestive punctuation. Also, datagram reordering might negatively affect (and counter) the method of "SOA bracketing" of AXFR responses to ensure zone date completeness. This should be mentioned as well. Hence, I suggest to change: Reasons not to do AXFR over UDP include cases where multiple AXFR messages are needed for a zone, there is no way to guarantee all AXFR messages will arrive at the AXFR client and no way to detect a dropped AXFR message. --- Reasons not to do AXFR over UDP include cases where multiple AXFR messages are needed for a zone: There is no way to guarantee all AXFR response messages will arrive at the AXFR client, and in the original transmission order (particularly affecting the delineation of the start/end of an AXFR response by the transmission of the SOA record), and no way to detect a dropped AXFR response message. (14c) 3rd paragraph The draft says: If an AXFR server cannot place the entire contents of the requested zone in one AXFR response message, the AXFR server MAY silently drop the request or MAY send a response with an return code of SERVFAIL. If an AXFR client does not receive a reply to an AXFR query over UDP or receives a SERVFAIL response code, the client SHOULD retry the request via TCP. Wouldn't it be reasonable and in line with the general DNS protocol to admit setting the TC bit (and at best leaving the answer section empty) as a natural means to indicate exceeding of the response message size limits? The code to take this as a trigger to immediately retry the request via TCP will already be implemented in any DNS client code, and this trigger avoids the performance penalty of having to wait for a timeout when the request over TCP will most probably succeed. Also, other parts of the draft seem to indicate that non-response might be used to indicate lack of authorixation. This ambiguity in observable DNS server behavior should better be avoided. Always responding with a precise error code or another defined trigger should help to avoid unreasonable/unexpected request retransmissions, and thereby will help offload servers from useless traffic. I therefore strongly recommend to not sanction the server behavior to silently drop a request as a means to signal a specific error condition. (15) Section 5 (15a) 1st paragraph Please do not omit the most stringent and important restriction to be observed today: LAW ! A zone administrator has the option to restrict AXFR access to a zone. This was not envisioned in the original design of the DNS but has emerged as a requirement as the DNS has evolved. Restrictions on AXFR could be for various reasons including a desire to keep the bulk version of the zone concealed or to prevent the servers from handling the load incurred in serving AXFR. All reasons are arguable, but the fact remains that there is a requirement to provide mechanisms to restrict AXFR. --- A zone administrator has the option to restrict AXFR access to a zone. This was not envisioned in the original design of the DNS but has emerged as a requirement as the DNS has evolved. Restrictions on | AXFR could be for various reasons including a desire (or even legal | requirements) to keep the bulk version of the zone concealed or to prevent the servers from handling the load incurred in serving AXFR. All reasons are arguable, but the fact remains that there is a requirement to provide mechanisms to restrict AXFR. (15b) last paragraph I simply do not understand the sense and purpose of the last sentence: An implementation SHOULD allow access to be open to all requests. Please supply more specific text, or drop this sentence. (16) Section 7.1 -- improved wording (16a) 1st paragraph An AXFR server has the luxury of being able to react to an AXFR client's abilities with the exception of knowing if the client can accept multiple resource records per AXFR response message. The knowledge that a client is so restricted apparently cannot be discovered, hence it has |to set by configuration. ^ --- An AXFR server has the luxury of being able to react to an AXFR client's abilities with the exception of knowing if the client can accept multiple resource records per AXFR response message. The knowledge that a client is so restricted apparently cannot be | discovered, hence it has to be set by configuration. ^^^^ (16b) 2nd paragraph An implementation of an AXFR server SHOULD permit configuring on a per AXFR client basis a need to revert to single resource record per message. The default SHOULD be to use multiple records per message. --- | An implementation of an AXFR server SHOULD permit configuring, on a vvvvv ^ | per AXFR client basis, the need to revert to single resource record per message. The default SHOULD be to use multiple records per message. (17) Section 12 - Changes suggested above require adding an entry for RFC 2929. - IESG and RFC-Ed policy require promoting RFC 2119 to Normative Ref. - If you like a combined ref. tag for RFCs 4033..4035, I suggest making use of "[RFC403x]". - Please use (or any mirrored or derived file) as the base for content, style, and punctuation in entries of the References section. Best regards, Alfred HÎnes. -- +------------------------+--------------------------------------------+ | TR-Sys Alfred Hoenes | Alfred Hoenes Dipl.-Math., Dipl.-Phys. | | Gerlinger Strasse 12 | Phone: (+49)7156/9635-0, Fax: -18 | | D-71254 Ditzingen | E-Mail: ah@TR-Sys.de | +------------------------+--------------------------------------------+ -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 24 13:28:12 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JI6o8-00070E-52; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:28:12 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JI6o5-0005Bk-Qz; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:28:12 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JI6eG-0003ML-M7 for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 18:18:00 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, USER_IN_WHITELIST_TO autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [83.246.72.252] (helo=gurgel.gson.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JI6eD-0003Ly-JX for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 18:17:59 +0000 Received: from guava.gson.org (a91-152-94-125.elisa-laajakaista.fi [91.152.94.125]) by gurgel.gson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 833F97C8FE; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 18:17:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: by guava.gson.org (Postfix, from userid 101) id D47FF761A8; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:17:55 +0200 (EET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <18328.54867.811020.829881@guava.gson.org> Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:17:55 +0200 To: George Michaelson Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: version -01 of draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile sent In-Reply-To: <9146D840-1654-4D32-8BFC-2F14CD1420CC@apnic.net> References: <9146D840-1654-4D32-8BFC-2F14CD1420CC@apnic.net> X-Mailer: VM 7.19 under Emacs 21.4.1 From: gson@araneus.fi (Andreas Gustafsson) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d8ae4fd88fcaf47c1a71c804d04f413d I have some comments on draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile-01: > 4.2.2. TCP > > {new normative language, maybe.. } The server MAY accept TCP > connections. {? what is the correct wording and reference?} I would like to keep the current requirement from RFC1123 section 6.1.3.2 that servers SHOULD support TCP. Two reasons for this are 1) to support answers that are too large to fit even in an EDNS0-extended UDP packet, and 2) to support the use of fallback to TCP as part of mechanisms to defend against query ID guessing attacks. > 4.3. DNS Message processing [...] > * The TC bit answer FORMERR MUST not have the TC bit set. > * RCODES SHOULD ignored. I have trouble parsing the two above bullet points. > 4.6. Label compression in RDATA > > [RFC 1035 (section 3.3. and 4.4.1)] ("Pointers can only be used for > occurrences of a domain name where the format is not class > specific.") > > Do label compression for labels in rdata for which this is > specifically mentioned in the RFC defining the RR. > o NS, SOA, CNAME, and PTR [RFC 1035 (3.3)]. > o Others defined in [RFC 1035 (3.3)]are not compressed. > o MB, MG, MR, MINFO, MX also have compressed dnames. These RRs and > their compression are described in [RFC 1035]. I find it confusing that the list of RR types from RFC1035 subject to compression is split into two bullet points separated by an unrelated bullet point. > o AFSDB, RP, RT [RFC 1183, (Section 1,2 & 3.3.3)]. This seems to imply that a server may compress names in AFSDB, RP, and RT when sending them. That is incorrect; [RFC 3597] says names in these record types MUST NOT be compressed, but SHOULD be decompressed if received in a compressed form. > o You MUST follow the rules in [RFC 3597]. Perhaps this should be at the beginning of the section rather than at the end, since RFC3597 is the the current specification of the compression rules and the rest of the section is basically reiterating those rules. > 4.7. Truncation handling > > Truncation handling is as specified in [RFC 2181 (9)]. > > {TBD normative text for this section. RFC references required.} If > inclusion of a RR set that is REQUIRED in either the answer or > authority section leads to message truncation. The section is left > empty and the truncation (TC) bit is set. If the DO bit is set RRSIG > RRs are required in the answer and authority section. > > If inclusion of an RRset in the Additional section is not possible > RRs are omitted one by one. This may lead to incomplete RRsets. > Omission of RRs from the Additional section because of message size > constraints will NOT lead to setting of the TC bit. [RFC 2181 (9)]. According to RFC2181, incomplete RRsets are allowed when TC is set but not when it is clear. The above text says the opposite. -- Andreas Gustafsson, gson@araneus.fi -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From HerminiaantoineReagan@margarida.net Thu Jan 24 13:38:40 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JI6yG-0008Db-Ba; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:38:40 -0500 Received: from [190.40.242.49] (helo=pc10) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JI6yF-00078t-Pl; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:38:40 -0500 Message-ID: <3ad001c85e21$68a2f1a0$0a01a8c0@pc10> From: "Kitty Saldana" To: Cc: , =20
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 24 15:50:42 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JI922-0002jW-S0; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:50:42 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JI91z-0000OX-NW; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:50:42 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JI8rN-000JEu-4u for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:39:41 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, USER_IN_ALL_SPAM_TO autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [130.105.36.66] (helo=cirrus.av8.net) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JI8rJ-000JER-Rw for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:39:39 +0000 Received: from [130.105.12.10] ([130.105.12.10]) (authenticated bits=0) by cirrus.av8.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m0OKd5Yq017276 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:39:09 -0500 Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:39:05 -0500 (EST) From: Dean Anderson X-X-Sender: dean@citation2.av8.net To: Paul Vixie cc: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org" , , , , , , Subject: Re: IANA "stuff" (was Note 2.1.1.b was Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-06.txt) In-Reply-To: <26025.1201153311@sa.vix.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93df555cbdbcdae9621e5b95d44b301e I'll try to limit comments to AXFR-clarify and to the roles of Nomimum, ISC, and Ultradns, and IETF staff. There are some other acts by Conrad, Vixie and others, but which were not related to AXFR-clarify. These are acts will not be cited here. On Thu, 24 Jan 2008, Paul Vixie wrote: > mr. anderson wrote: > > > ... > > Second, the misconduct alleged on the AXFR-clarify draft from 2000 to > > 2003 happened while David Conrad was the CEO of Nomimum, and shared an > > office with Paul Vixie. The original AXFR-clarify draft was submitted by > > a Nominum employee. The false assurances that no wire changes were made > > by a Nomimum employee. People relied on these false assurances. > > the nominum employee you're referring to has such a strong personal > ethic and reputation that it is hard to imagine him parroting anybody > else's ideas or writing anything in an internet-draft that he didn't > personally believe in. A character reference of "Strong personal ethic" doesn't mean that one hasn't engaged in wrongdoing. However, no one has accused Gustafsson of "parroting anyone else's ideas". Gustafsson is accountable for the AXFR-clarify statements; He's a participant and participation is evidence of agreement to advance the enterprise. And Conrad is Gustafsson's boss at Nomimum. > > During this period (1996-2002), Paul Vixie misled the internet > > community that MAPS was a non-profit enterprise. Sharing an office > > with Vixie, Conrad must have been aware of the true facts about MAPS > > status, but kept silent. > > maps was a nonprofit enterprise. it was never a federally recognized > 501c3, due to various administrative errors i made when i ran it, but > when david shared an office with me (oh such halcyon days of yore) he > never had any reason to believe that maps wasn't just a nonprofit > drowning in lawsuits. Excuses of that sort are meaningless. MAPS was _never_ a nonprofit; And instead doing the right thing of revealing the true status of MAPS, or completing the non-profit status, or revealing that non-profit status was denied, in 2002 MAPS announced that MAPS was for-profit, and Vixie/Rand took the money raised as profit. Assuming Vixie made errors on getting the non-profit tax status setup, good faith in that instance would have been to either 1) reveal that fact, 2) complete the tax status or 3) to transfer MAPS assets to another non-profit. Bad faith is to take the money raised as profit, which is exactly what Vixie and Rand did. [Snip--legalese and excuses for facts asserted regarding Exactis V. MAPS, though somewhat true in general, but not true of Exactis V. MAPS specifically, will be ignored.] > > Mr. Conrad was a member of NANOG at that time, but he kept silent. > > nanog does not issue membership cards, and there is no membership > agreement. to be a "member of nanog" is meaningless. someone can be > a member of the nanog mailing list, and someone can pay an entrance > fee to a nanog meeting, and someone can be invited to speak at nanog > meetings. but it's not a membership society, Conrad is a member of an identifiable group, called NANOG. Membership cards are never necessary. In every case (legal or illegal, incorporated or unincorporated), participation demonstrates membership. Conrad participated in NANOG. > and david cannot be held responsible for the childish threats you say > were made against you by someone else on the nanog mailing list. I do not consider threats of physical violence of the sort "let's hope Dean attends a meeting so we can get him in an alley" to be merely "childish". The threat was made by Jeremy Porter, a long time (by then) participant in NANOG. The threat was made because I asserted (correctly) that the ECPA applied to ISPs. Possibly Conrad cannot be held legally liable for Porter's act, directly. However, silence in such a case is shameful and unethical. The threats did further the RICO enterprise of which Conrad was a part. So indirectly, Conrad is responsible, through responsibility for the RICO enterprise. > > More injury from this enterprise has happened since 1998, some of > > itin connection with the AXFR-clarify scheme, even. When a > > non-profit is involved, economic harm can be the unlawful object of > > a RICO enterprise, in addition to economic profit. > > i'm curious. i wonder if you might indulge me on a framing question. > when i found out that BIND4 and some early BIND8 servers were > unwilling to accept perfectly valid AXFR's from the Microsoft NT 3.51 > Resource Kit due to stupid bugs in BIND, and i fixed those bugs so > that BIND would do what the RFCs said and so that Microsoft's > customers would stop complaining to Microsoft, what role do you think > all this played in the "AXFR-clarify scheme"? do you think i was > misdirecting folks, trying to gain trust and credibility, before > clamping down on the industry with my iron claw? (i really do want to > know.) I have never used the phrase "clamping down on the industry with my iron claw". This incident with Microsoft is not part of the AXFR-clarify scheme, and was not discussed on the namedroppers list. I'm not aware of any false statements in that incident. That you didn't do a bad thing once is no proof you've never done a bad thing. The facts I cite in the AXFR-clarify scheme are the false statements that were made to the WG by Nomimum that others relied on. That is, that there were no wire changes to the AXFR protocol in the AXFR-clarify draft. ISC and Vixie made changes to BIND which would profit from the scheme. And, again, for the second time, Vixie and Conrad were in the same room for something bad, this time the AXFR-clarify scheme. Conrad and Vixie both stood to benefit from the scheme. I also cite the abuses of IETF policy by then WG Chair Randy Bush in deleting messages from Bernstein that revealed the false statements. I also cite Bush's publication of Bernstein's subscription address, enabling forged unsubscriptions. That's two acts; Bush is also "associated-in-fact with the RICO enterprise. The blind eye that then IETF Chair Harald Alvestrand and the IESG turned to the issue shows "Willfull blindness" to wrongdoing that furthers the RICO enterprise. > you have not even tried to show any connection between the > exactis/maps law- suit and the axfr-clarify issue. is that an > oversight, or are you honestly unable to imagine some way in which the > AXFR-clarify scheme and the lawsuit are connected? (i think i > remember you saying, years ago, that there was a connection, so, i'm > assuming that this is an oversight on your part.) No oversight on my part. You just didn't read closely. I said the RICO enterprise consists of and benefits Nominum, ISC, UltraDNS, at least. [there are definitely others, but no need for all that here] The RICO enterprise can have multiple schemes and not each person needs to participate in each scheme. A person (or any entity that can hold property) only needs to participate in two or more acts furthering the enterprise. To violate just the conspiracy part of RICO, all that is needed is agreement (for an unperformed act) or just one act which furthers a RICO enterprise. An act implies agreement. Two or more acts makes one a part of the RICO enterprise in contrast with a conspirator who isn't part of the RICO enterprise, but has only agreed to help it. Conrad is in the same room with other schemes, and he participated in scheme furthering the RICO enterprise. I have some more acts by Mr. Conrad, but I won't detail them here. > > ... Mr. Conrad was in the same office as Paul Vixie, overseeing in the > > AXFR-clarify scheme involving false statements (the fact that there were no > > wire changes in AXFR-clarify) that people relied on (the members of the IETF > > WG). Nominum, ISC and UltraDNS were the benefactors of that scheme. > > so, the connection between the AXFR-clarify scheme and the lawsuit is that > david benefitted from the one while observing me closely during the other? No, The connection is that there is only one RICO enterprise engaged in multiple schemes. > > Without commenting on whether any laws were broken, there are clearly > > ethical problems and serious misconduct of IETF officials and other IETF > > members, including Mr. Conrad. > > you keep using that word: "clearly." i do not think it means what you think > it means. And I thought we would disagree on what "ethical" means. But "clearly" is just a filler word. It should always be deleted on edits. Perhaps this is better: Without commenting on whether any laws were broken, there are ethical problems and serious misconduct of IETF officials and other IETF members, including Mr. Conrad. --Dean -- Av8 Internet Prepared to pay a premium for better service? www.av8.net faster, more reliable, better service 617 344 9000 -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From hamilton@bbjy.com Thu Jan 24 15:59:38 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JI9Ag-00071e-9c; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:59:38 -0500 Received: from bhe201062162245.res-com.wayinternet.com.br ([201.62.162.245] helo=rad) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JI9Af-0003Dg-3X; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:59:37 -0500 Received: from [201.62.162.245] by mail.bbjy.com; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:58:11 -0300 Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:58:11 -0300 From: "Norma Riggs" X-Mailer: The Bat! (v2.00.0) Personal Reply-To: hamilton@bbjy.com X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <807216554.20888709112187@bbjy.com> To: agentx-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Bomb Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:58:11 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aefe408d50e9c7c47615841cb314bed Enjoy our prices and save with us. Improve your health and budget condition purchasing high quality med s with Canadian Pharmacy online drugstore which offers medications at very low prices. After all our NEW pharmacy I-net page is accomplished!!! http://batpast.com From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 24 16:19:59 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JI9UN-0005Lf-HO; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:19:59 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JI9UL-00012l-Dl; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:19:59 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JI9OM-000N7v-EY for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 21:13:46 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [212.74.77.49] (helo=smtp.lon.dcn.colt.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JI9OG-000N7F-JR for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 21:13:41 +0000 Received: from [194.45.79.6] (unknown [10.249.6.129]) by smtp.lon.dcn.colt.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D629E35704 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 22:13:38 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <6723C910-2C6E-4946-858A-D09EE65B7B16@eng.colt.net> From: Ralf Weber To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org In-Reply-To: <20080124151044.GA15010@nic.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) Subject: Re: MUST for the implementation of for the operator? (Was: version -01 of draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile sent Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 22:13:38 +0100 References: <9146D840-1654-4D32-8BFC-2F14CD1420CC@apnic.net> <20080124151044.GA15010@nic.fr> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.915) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 Moin! On Jan 24, 2008, at 16:10 , Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > And the text on TCP, section 4.2.2, says: > >> The server MAY accept TCP connections. > > which is very different from the section on EDNS0 (which says that > implementation MUST support it for name servers MAY disable it). Why > not a MUST here? Every name server software I know supports TCP, even > djbdns (http://cr.yp.to/djbdns/tcp.html). If we make a document for > implementors, a MUST here seems reasonable. AFAIR (it's been some time since I used it) djbdns only does zone transfers over DNS (and even these are strange sometimes), it does not answer normal DNS request via TCP. But anyway I would say a modern server either has to support EDNS or TCP, and I would put a MUST here, at least I support Andreas that we shouldn't fall behind the original SHOULD for TCP. So long -Ralf --- Ralf Weber Platform Infrastructure Manager Colt Telecom GmbH Herriotstrasse 4 60528 Frankfurt Germany DDI: +49 (0)69 56606 2780 Internal OneDial: 8 491 2780 Fax: +49 (0)69 56606 6280 Email: rw@colt.net http://www.colt.net/ Data | Voice | Managed Services ***************************************** COLT Telecom GmbH, Herriotstra=DFe 4, 60528 Frankfurt/Main, Deutschland = * Tel +49 (0)69 56606 0 * Fax +49 (0)69 56606 2222 * Gesch=E4ftsf=FChrer: Albertus Marinus Oosterom (Vors.), Rita Thies * Amtsgericht Frankfurt/Main HRB 53898 * USt.-IdNr. DE 220 772 475 -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 24 16:35:07 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JI9j0-0007FN-Rm; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:35:07 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JI9iy-0001Lv-Vu; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:35:06 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JI9ey-000P6p-4y for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 21:30:56 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [192.134.4.11] (helo=mx2.nic.fr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JI9ev-000P6Q-L3 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 21:30:54 +0000 Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 75A0C1C0096; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 22:30:52 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F19E1C008F; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 22:30:52 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FF0E58EBED; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 22:30:52 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 22:30:52 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Ralf Weber Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: MUST for the implementation of for the operator? (Was: version -01 of draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile sent Message-ID: <20080124213052.GA28547@nic.fr> References: <9146D840-1654-4D32-8BFC-2F14CD1420CC@apnic.net> <20080124151044.GA15010@nic.fr> <6723C910-2C6E-4946-858A-D09EE65B7B16@eng.colt.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6723C910-2C6E-4946-858A-D09EE65B7B16@eng.colt.net> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-5-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f On Thu, Jan 24, 2008 at 10:13:38PM +0100, Ralf Weber wrote a message of 48 lines which said: > >djbdns (http://cr.yp.to/djbdns/tcp.html). If we make a document for > >implementors, a MUST here seems reasonable. > AFAIR (it's been some time since I used it) djbdns only does zone > transfers over DNS (and even these are strange sometimes), it does > not answer normal DNS request via TCP. That's not true and the Web page I mentioned explains why and how. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 24 17:34:41 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIAef-0005Hc-KE; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:34:41 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIAef-0002Rd-29; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:34:41 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JIAYE-00052q-91 for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 22:28:02 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00, USER_IN_WHITELIST_TO autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc] (helo=drugs.dv.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JIAYB-00052X-1s for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 22:28:00 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0OMRkPk062898; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 09:27:47 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200801242227.m0OMRkPk062898@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: gson@araneus.fi (Andreas Gustafsson) Cc: George Michaelson , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: version -01 of draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile sent In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:17:55 +0200." <18328.54867.811020.829881@guava.gson.org> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 09:27:46 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 73734d43604d52d23b3eba644a169745 > I have some comments on draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile-01: > > > 4.2.2. TCP > > > > {new normative language, maybe.. } The server MAY accept TCP > > connections. {? what is the correct wording and reference?} > > I would like to keep the current requirement from RFC1123 section > 6.1.3.2 that servers SHOULD support TCP. Two reasons for this are > 1) to support answers that are too large to fit even in an EDNS0-extended > UDP packet, and 2) to support the use of fallback to TCP as part of > mechanisms to defend against query ID guessing attacks. I would make TCP a MUST for a recursive server. > > 4.3. DNS Message processing > [...] > > * The TC bit answer FORMERR MUST not have the TC bit set. > > * RCODES SHOULD ignored. > > I have trouble parsing the two above bullet points. > > > 4.6. Label compression in RDATA > > > > [RFC 1035 (section 3.3. and 4.4.1)] ("Pointers can only be used for > > occurrences of a domain name where the format is not class > > specific.") > > > > Do label compression for labels in rdata for which this is > > specifically mentioned in the RFC defining the RR. > > o NS, SOA, CNAME, and PTR [RFC 1035 (3.3)]. > > o Others defined in [RFC 1035 (3.3)]are not compressed. > > o MB, MG, MR, MINFO, MX also have compressed dnames. These RRs and > > their compression are described in [RFC 1035]. > > I find it confusing that the list of RR types from RFC1035 subject to > compression is split into two bullet points separated by an unrelated > bullet point. > > > o AFSDB, RP, RT [RFC 1183, (Section 1,2 & 3.3.3)]. > > This seems to imply that a server may compress names in AFSDB, RP, and > RT when sending them. That is incorrect; [RFC 3597] says names in > these record types MUST NOT be compressed, but SHOULD be decompressed > if received in a compressed form. > > > o You MUST follow the rules in [RFC 3597]. > > Perhaps this should be at the beginning of the section rather than at > the end, since RFC3597 is the the current specification of the > compression rules and the rest of the section is basically reiterating > those rules. > > > 4.7. Truncation handling > > > > Truncation handling is as specified in [RFC 2181 (9)]. > > > > {TBD normative text for this section. RFC references required.} If > > inclusion of a RR set that is REQUIRED in either the answer or > > authority section leads to message truncation. The section is left > > empty and the truncation (TC) bit is set. If the DO bit is set RRSIG > > RRs are required in the answer and authority section. > > > > If inclusion of an RRset in the Additional section is not possible > > RRs are omitted one by one. This may lead to incomplete RRsets. > > Omission of RRs from the Additional section because of message size > > constraints will NOT lead to setting of the TC bit. [RFC 2181 (9)]. > > According to RFC2181, incomplete RRsets are allowed when TC is set > but not when it is clear. The above text says the opposite. > -- > Andreas Gustafsson, gson@araneus.fi > > -- > to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with > the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. > archive: -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From AlphonseviburnumDillon@sonoma-county.org Thu Jan 24 20:45:06 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIDcw-0001Cb-K6; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:45:06 -0500 Received: from [190.1.26.59] (helo=mio.bvconline.com.ar) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIDcw-00033L-1K; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:45:06 -0500 Message-ID: <0e9201c85eda$c2fd97e0$3b1a01be@MIO> From: "Jamel Farley" To: , =20
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------=_NextPart_000_0E8E_01C85EDA.C2FD97E0-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 24 21:57:54 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIElO-000758-5E; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 21:57:54 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIElM-0000qN-6v; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 21:57:54 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JIEXw-0003qO-2P for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 02:44:00 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HEADER_SPAM, RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JIEXt-0003q2-Js for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 02:43:58 +0000 Received: from hlid.ogud.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0P2hq19013130 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 21:43:52 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers@hlid.ogud.com) Received: (from namedroppers@localhost) by hlid.ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id m0P2hqRj013129 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 21:43:52 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers) Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JIBxS-000EjQ-ON for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 23:58:12 +0000 Received: from Puki.ogud.com (gatt.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.6]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0ONw6ur006269 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 18:58:06 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ogud@ogud.com) Message-Id: <200801242358.m0ONw6ur006269@ogud.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 18:57:50 -0500 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3lafur?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Gu=F0mundsson?= /DNSEXT chair Subject: Dean Anderson posting privileges revoked. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 66.92.146.160 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 10.20.30.6 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 It has come to my attention that Dean Anderson has posted some messages to this mailing list that are not technical but personal attacks and conspiracy theories. Dean Anderson is also the subject of an in-power PR-action: http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf-announce/current/msg01967.html The namedroppers mailing list is operated as an IETF mailing list. Under the procedures of RFC 3683, I have suspended his posting privileges to the namedroppers mailing list. Olafur Gudmundsson -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 24 22:12:52 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIEzs-0002aS-HO; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 22:12:52 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIEzr-00012n-Vg; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 22:12:52 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JIEuf-00068I-Ho for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 03:07:29 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HEADER_SPAM, RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JIEuY-00066s-E9 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 03:07:24 +0000 Received: from hlid.ogud.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0P37H6c013341 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 22:07:17 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers@hlid.ogud.com) Received: (from namedroppers@localhost) by hlid.ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id m0P37HxZ013340 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 22:07:17 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers) Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JIEtH-00060s-3f for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 03:06:05 +0000 Received: from Puki.ogud.com (ns.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.6]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0P35uMi013314 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2008 22:05:56 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ogud@ogud.com) Message-Id: <200801250305.m0P35uMi013314@ogud.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 22:05:38 -0500 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3lafur?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Gu=F0mundsson?= /DNSEXT chair Subject: DNSEXT list policy (updated) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 66.92.146.160 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 10.20.30.6 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 32b73d73e8047ed17386f9799119ce43 Periodic posting, updated 24/Jan/2008. List Purpose: namedroppers at ops.ietf.org is the mailing list for the IETF DNSEXT (DNS EXTensions) working group. See for the WG charter. Messages should be on topics appropriate to the DNSEXT WG, which are various discussion of the DNS protocols or administrivia of the WG itself. - Specific items that are not appropriate for posting Calls for papers, announcements of events not directly relevant to the DNS protocols, etc. are not appropriate. Discussion of problems with particular implementations, announcements of releases, sites' misconfigurations, pleas for help with specific implementations, etc. should be done on mailing lists for the particular implementations. There is a working group for DNS operational practice, DNSOP, whose charter can be found at . Items relevant to the DNSOP charter are to be discussed on the DNSOP mailing list. Discussion about the quality of implementations is outside the scope of this list. Moderation: Moderator: DNSEXT chair(s) unless otherwise announced on mailing list. Moderation is manual until further notice, expect delays. Questions or concerns related to the acceptance or rejection of specific messages to the namedroppers mailing list should first be discussed with the WG chair, with follow up appeals using the normal appeals process of RFC 2026 (i.e. follow up with area directors, then IESG, etc.). --- NOTE WELL: Any submission to the IETF intended by the Contributor for publication as all or part of an IETF Internet-Draft or RFC and any statement made within the context of an IETF activity is considered an "IETF Contribution". Such statements include oral statements in IETF sessions, as well as written and electronic communications made at any time or place, which are addressed to: - the IETF plenary session, - any IETF working group or portion thereof, - the IESG, or any member thereof on behalf of the IESG, - the IAB or any member thereof on behalf of the IAB, - any IETF mailing list, including the IETF list itself, any working group or design team list, or any other list functioning under IETF auspices, - the RFC Editor or the Internet-Drafts function All IETF Contributions are subject to the rules of RFC 3978 (updated by RFC 4748) and RFC 3979(updated by RFC 4879). Statements made outside of an IETF session, mailing list or other function, that are clearly not intended to be input to an IETF activity, group or function, are not IETF Contributions in the context of this notice. Please consult RFC 3978 (and RFC 4748) for details. A participant in any IETF activity is deemed to accept all IETF rules of process, as documented in Best Current Practices RFCs and IESG Statements. A participant in any IETF activity acknowledges that written, audio and video records of meetings may be made and may be available to the public. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From dnsexqv@netsystems.net Fri Jan 25 01:46:56 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIIL2-0006T4-MR for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 01:46:56 -0500 Received: from [203.172.211.249] (helo=com-aaam) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIIL1-00032J-AT for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 01:46:56 -0500 Content-Return: allowed X-Mailer: CME-V6.5.4.3; MSN Received: (qmail 11497 by uid 673); Fri, 25 Jan 2008 01:46:54 +0700 Message-Id: <20080125084654.11499.qmail@com-aaam> To: Subject: January 71% OFF From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 311e798ce51dbeacf5cdfcc8e9fda21b
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Jan 25 09:30:57 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIPa5-0007cb-MK; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 09:30:57 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIPa4-0007sD-1f; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 09:30:57 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JIPP2-000P8Q-6m for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 14:19:32 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HEADER_SPAM, RDNS_NONE,USER_IN_WHITELIST_TO autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JIPOx-000P7l-7N for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 14:19:30 +0000 Received: from hlid.ogud.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0PEJMbc018007 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 09:19:22 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers@hlid.ogud.com) Received: (from namedroppers@localhost) by hlid.ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id m0PEJMeq018006 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 09:19:22 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers) Received: from [193.227.124.2] (helo=mx01.bfk.de) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JIO1Q-000D2E-Dr for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 12:51:06 +0000 Received: from mx00.int.bfk.de ([10.119.110.2]) by mx01.bfk.de with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) id 1JIO1K-0003V8-MZ; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 13:50:58 +0100 Received: from fweimer by bfk.de with local id 1JIO1I-0001cW-1v; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 13:50:56 +0100 To: Stephane Bortzmeyer Cc: George Michaelson , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: MUST for the implementation of for the operator? (Was: version -01 of draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile sent References: <9146D840-1654-4D32-8BFC-2F14CD1420CC@apnic.net> <20080124151044.GA15010@nic.fr> From: Florian Weimer Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 13:50:56 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20080124151044.GA15010@nic.fr> (Stephane Bortzmeyer's message of "Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:10:44 +0100") Message-ID: <82abmu5arz.fsf@mid.bfk.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 66.92.146.160 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 * Stephane Bortzmeyer: >> I have just submitted a 01 revision of >> draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol- profile, > > It seems we still have a meta-issue. Is the document mostly for > implementors or mostly for operations people?=20 Good question. It probably makes sense to target implementors because it's easier to get consensus about protocol aspects. > And the text on TCP, section 4.2.2, says: > >> The server MAY accept TCP connections. > > which is very different from the section on EDNS0 (which says that > implementation MUST support it for name servers MAY disable it). Why > not a MUST here? Every name server software I know supports TCP, even > djbdns (http://cr.yp.to/djbdns/tcp.html). If we make a document for > implementors, a MUST here seems reasonable. A MUST would be new normative language, but clean and simple. "SHOULD support TCP connections, and it MUST support TCP connections for a specific client if it has ever responded to that client with the TC bit set" would be new language as well, but is closer to the minimum requirement. --=20 Florian Weimer BFK edv-consulting GmbH http://www.bfk.de/ Kriegsstra=DFe 100 tel: +49-721-96201-1 D-76133 Karlsruhe fax: +49-721-96201-99 -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From a-all@agesl.com Fri Jan 25 09:34:12 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIPdE-0003CK-5F; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 09:34:12 -0500 Received: from [60.31.197.34] (helo=[60.31.197.34]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIPdC-0008Gm-W3; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 09:34:11 -0500 Received: from [60.31.197.34] by mail.agesl.com; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 23:07:47 +0800 From: "Aline Cunningham" To: Subject: What are you up to? Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 23:07:47 +0800 Message-ID: <01c85fa7$1960a380$22c51f3c@a-all> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 Importance: Normal X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8eae9af85e4fcfe76f325e38493bf4 Hello! I am tired this evening. I am nice girl that would like to chat with you. Email me at Camilla@EHealThies.info only, because I am using my friend's email to write this. Would you mind me showing some nice pictures of me? From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Jan 25 09:37:39 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIPgY-0000jO-QH; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 09:37:38 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIPgY-00080l-B2; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 09:37:38 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JIPYu-0000fO-TJ for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 14:29:44 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HEADER_SPAM, RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JIPYs-0000ek-4K for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 14:29:43 +0000 Received: from hlid.ogud.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0PETU8Y018093 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 09:29:31 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers@hlid.ogud.com) Received: (from namedroppers@localhost) by hlid.ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id m0PETUqo018092 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 09:29:30 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers) Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JIPYD-0000Yr-Cr for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 14:29:04 +0000 Received: from Puki.ogud.com (ns.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.6]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0PESvXc018066 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 09:28:57 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ogud@ogud.com) Message-Id: <200801251428.m0PESvXc018066@ogud.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 09:28:30 -0500 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3lafur?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Gu=F0mundsson?= /DNSEXT chair Subject: DNS profile document going forward Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 10.20.30.6 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 There seems to be consensus that this document should be pursued as a working group item. I will add a milestone that it be done in August this year, this is optimistic but what the heck. The question has been raised what is the target audience? The target audience is: implementors AND decision makers for installing/purchasing/operating DNS software. Operators are not a prime target audience as this document will only to a limited degree tell them how to configure their services. George is going to need some help in meeting this aggressive schedule, anyone willing to take a stab at fleshing out a section please contact George and me. Olafur -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Jan 25 09:58:02 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIQ0I-0001TF-2P; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 09:58:02 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIQ0H-0008Ml-M1; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 09:58:02 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JIPp2-0003Ji-RS for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 14:46:24 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JIPoz-0003JF-QG for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 14:46:23 +0000 Received: from Puki.ogud.com (ns.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.6]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0PEkC9P018621 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 09:46:12 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ogud@ogud.com) Message-Id: <200801251446.m0PEkC9P018621@ogud.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 09:45:51 -0500 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3lafur?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Gu=F0mundsson?= /DNSEXT chair Subject: Re: DNSEXT list policy (updated) In-Reply-To: <200801250305.m0P35uMi013314@ogud.com> References: <200801250305.m0P35uMi013314@ogud.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 10.20.30.6 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 At 00:17 25/01/2008, =D3lafur Gu=F0mundsson /DNSEXT wrote: >Periodic posting, updated 24/Jan/2008. Thanks to mailing list system operator we can now=20 return to regular moderation policy >Moderation: > > Moderator: DNSEXT chair(s) unless otherwise announced on mailing list. > > Moderation is manual until further notice, expect delays. Moderation is based on "subscriber-only with spam filter". To counter a certain class of spam mails, messages over 20000 characters, originating from list subscribers, will be held for moderations. Olafur -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From rellitevqyrqx@adderninsurance.com Fri Jan 25 10:45:35 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIQkJ-00058A-9g for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 10:45:35 -0500 Received: from shbkpq40-1178072911.sdsl.bell.ca ([70.55.247.79]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIQkI-0001f0-HS for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 10:45:34 -0500 Received: (qmail 24948 invoked from network); Fri, 25 Jan 2008 10:45:38 -0500 Received: from unknown (HELO adderninsurance.com) (186.24.251.35) by with SMTP; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 10:45:37 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ( [228.50.67.96]) by adderninsurance.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id bWBNBKri655754 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 10:45:36 -0500 Message-Id: <090325734897.bWBNBKri655754@034435.> Received: from phpmailer ([127.0.0.1]) by with HTTP; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 10:45:36 -0500 Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 10:45:36 -0500 To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org From: "rellitev" Subject: renegtuo X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: phpmailer [version 1.54] Reply-To: rellitevqyrqx@adderninsurance.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset = "iso-8859-1" X-Spam-Score: 4.7 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 0f1ff0b0158b41ac6b9548d0972cdd31 http://www.besttostrut.com/ The Seasons Hottest Models, Shoes, High Heels and Boots, 70% OFF Chanel Gucci Dior Prada From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Jan 25 12:47:04 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JISds-000083-Fr; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 12:47:04 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JISds-0005TG-0I; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 12:47:04 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JISWH-00014f-Ea for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:39:13 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JISWB-00013b-Lk for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:39:09 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.106] (hlid.ogud.com [66.92.146.160]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0PHcuOQ020355; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 12:38:57 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 12:37:40 -0500 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Edward Lewis Subject: AXFR over UDP Cc: ed.lewis@neustar.biz Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 66.92.146.160 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca I was going to save this issue for -07 to -08 but I figure it should be asked sooner rather than later. In -06 of AXFR clarify I wrote on doing AXFR over UDP. It's a protocol change, an extension I think, and as I've said I don't want to push these things. But it seemed like a good idea to at least flesh out the idea. I figured someone would pounce on it. No one did, so far. RFC 1035 says mildly (the same style anything else is said there) that AXFR runs over TCP. If you look at the situation closely, AXFR has to run on TCP because the first and last segments have special contents. Within AXFR there is no way to guarantee that the last segment might pass what's supposed to be an intermediate segment, this is one item that kind of necessitates TCP. Since then there some things have changed. One is the network is a little healthier (a minor adjustment, meaning UDP probably gets through more and more in order than back then), EDNS0 has happened, and we have a need for lots of small zones popping up (as for web hosting). It seems like AXFR over UDP might fit a need and might be easily added to the definition. My thinking on it makes me feel that AXFR over UDP has to be restricted to one segment, meaning SOA in the first RR, same in the last RR, and in between all other records. The limit on the size is that defined by EDNS0 or 512 by default. The TC bit becomes important here - it can be used to signal that the zone is too big for a single segment. I'm seeking some discussion on this. Is AXFR over UDP a good and needed thing? Is the restriction to a single segment and use of the TC bit wise? (As in, are the implementations that already have another way of doing AXFR over UDP?) Should this be removed from this document and let the doc just update the Standards Track 1035 (et.al.)? Should a separate doc be done for AXFR over UDP with a status of Experimental, or maybe Proposed Standard? -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 NeuStar Think glocally. Act confused. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Jan 25 13:16:50 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIT6g-0004x6-6n; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 13:16:50 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIT6d-0006H1-RG; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 13:16:50 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JIT2M-0006NR-Vs for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 18:12:22 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::1] (helo=sa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JIT2K-0006N4-5r for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 18:12:21 +0000 Received: from sa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D67071143C; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 18:12:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@sa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: Edward Lewis cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: AXFR over UDP In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 25 Jan 2008 12:37:40 EST." References: X-Mailer: MH-E 8.0.2; nmh 1.0.4; GNU Emacs 21.3.1 Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 18:12:19 +0000 Message-ID: <35250.1201284739@sa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 082a9cbf4d599f360ac7f815372a6a15 > ... > My thinking on it makes me feel that AXFR over UDP has to be restricted to > one segment, meaning SOA in the first RR, same in the last RR, and in > between all other records. The limit on the size is that defined by EDNS0 > or 512 by default. The TC bit becomes important here - it can be used to > signal that the zone is too big for a single segment. i think we can skip the final SOA in this case. (we know where the end is.) > I'm seeking some discussion on this. > > Is AXFR over UDP a good and needed thing? yes. > Is the restriction to a single segment and use of the TC bit wise? > (As in, are the implementations that already have another way of doing > AXFR over UDP?) sounds great to me. > Should this be removed from this document and let the doc just update the > Standards Track 1035 (et.al.)? yes. > Should a separate doc be done for AXFR over UDP with a status of > Experimental, or maybe Proposed Standard? yes. masataka showed us in RFC 1995 that a single-packet could be useful and would not cost extra round trips or anything else. i believe that QTYPE AXFR over UDP would be ignored or failed by all existing servers, none will crash or return unambiguous results that might look like a zone. but this would cost us an extra round trip in some cases. i'd prefer we modify the signalling of the SOA SERIAL probe so that a full zone response is also welcome. to do this we could add an EDNS0 option, "whole zone welcome", which only had meaning if the QTYPE was SOA and if TSIG was also present. (we cannot open up the possibility of a MiTM attack that replaces a whole zone by QID guessing.) in this way, a new initiator could solicit a whole-zone response using an EDNS0 buffer size of 64K (who cares about IP fragmentation if it's rare enough?). if EDNS0 isn't supported, it was going to take a round trip to discover that anyway, so cache the EDNS0 failure and move on. if whole-zone isn't supported, you at least did learn the SOA SERIAL so you can move on. this requires that the EDNS0 option for whole-zone-welcome include the client SOA SERIAL, and the server will have to do "serial number arithmetic" to compare this and only send a whole zone if it's "more recent" than the client's. these two things are changes to the model, a master server does not have to know how to compare serial numbers right now, and a client does not have to expose its local serial number to the network or the master server right now. i think those model changes are worthwhile to get the benefits. this is a good idea. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Jan 25 13:23:38 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JITDG-0007Dj-K2; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 13:23:38 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JITDE-0006Pa-Sx; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 13:23:38 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JIT8t-0007DH-RL for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 18:19:07 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [207.5.72.225] (helo=EXHUB016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JIT8r-0007Cv-De for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 18:19:06 +0000 Received: from EXVMBX016-2.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.172]) by EXHUB016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.225]) with mapi; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 10:19:04 -0800 From: David Conrad To: Edward Lewis , "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org" Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 10:19:03 -0800 Subject: Re: AXFR over UDP Thread-Topic: AXFR over UDP Thread-Index: AchffFby4M8GFVunSUe2QrwDDTCg9wAAmyH1 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Ed, On 1/25/08 9:37 AM, "Edward Lewis" wrote: > Is AXFR over UDP a good and needed thing? Sure. Lots of zones these days can probably fit into a single segment and = I suspect it might help out folks who are hosting zillions of tiny zones. > Is the restriction to a single segment and use of the TC bit wise? > (As in, are the implementations that already have another way of doing > AXFR over UDP?) I think so. > Should this be removed from this document and let the doc just update > the Standards Track 1035 (et.al.)? > Should a separate doc be done for AXFR over UDP with a status of > Experimental, or maybe Proposed Standard? Don't have a strong opinion. Having UDP AXFR as a "MAY" implement doesn't seem like a big extension to the clarification of AXFR to me, but I don't care that much... Regards, -drc -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Jan 25 15:11:10 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIUtK-0004Ni-7k; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 15:11:10 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIUtJ-0002t0-GM; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 15:11:10 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JIUm7-000KAX-LF for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 20:03:43 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JIUm4-000KA0-Lk for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 20:03:42 +0000 Received: from Puki.ogud.com (ns.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.6]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0PK3Qdh021460; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 15:03:26 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ogud@ogud.com) Message-Id: <200801252003.m0PK3Qdh021460@ogud.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 15:03:03 -0500 To: Edward Lewis , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Olafur Gudmundsson Subject: Re: AXFR over UDP In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 AXFR historically is over TCP lets keep it that way. ?XFR over UDP is a new protocol extension, define it in a separate document without any of the AXFR issues, this implies a new QTYPE. Olafur At 12:37 25/01/2008, Edward Lewis wrote: >I was going to save this issue for -07 to -08 but I figure it should >be asked sooner rather than later. > >In -06 of AXFR clarify I wrote on doing AXFR over UDP. It's a >protocol change, an extension I think, and as I've said I don't want >to push these things. But it seemed like a good idea to at least >flesh out the idea. I figured someone would pounce on it. No one did, so far. > >RFC 1035 says mildly (the same style anything else is said there) >that AXFR runs over TCP. If you look at the situation closely, AXFR >has to run on TCP because the first and last segments have special >contents. Within AXFR there is no way to guarantee that the last >segment might pass what's supposed to be an intermediate segment, >this is one item that kind of necessitates TCP. > >Since then there some things have changed. One is the network is a >little healthier (a minor adjustment, meaning UDP probably gets >through more and more in order than back then), EDNS0 has happened, >and we have a need for lots of small zones popping up (as for web >hosting). It seems like AXFR over UDP might fit a need and might be >easily added to the definition. > >My thinking on it makes me feel that AXFR over UDP has to be >restricted to one segment, meaning SOA in the first RR, same in the >last RR, and in between all other records. The limit on the size is >that defined by EDNS0 or 512 by default. The TC bit becomes >important here - it can be used to signal that the zone is too big >for a single segment. > >I'm seeking some discussion on this. > >Is AXFR over UDP a good and needed thing? >Is the restriction to a single segment and use of the TC bit wise? > (As in, are the implementations that already have another way of doing > AXFR over UDP?) >Should this be removed from this document and let the doc just >update the Standards Track 1035 (et.al.)? >Should a separate doc be done for AXFR over UDP with a status of >Experimental, or maybe Proposed Standard? > >-- >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 >NeuStar > >Think glocally. Act confused. > >-- >to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with >the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. >archive: -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Jan 25 15:52:35 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIVXP-00042l-QX; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 15:52:35 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIVXN-0004f1-IJ; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 15:52:35 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JIVSr-000PVB-Gs for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 20:47:53 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::1] (helo=sa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JIVSp-000PUi-30 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 20:47:52 +0000 Received: from sa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9440111429; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 20:47:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@sa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: Olafur Gudmundsson cc: Edward Lewis , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: AXFR over UDP In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 25 Jan 2008 15:03:03 EST." <200801252003.m0PK3Qdh021460@ogud.com> References: <200801252003.m0PK3Qdh021460@ogud.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.0.2; nmh 1.0.4; GNU Emacs 21.3.1 Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 20:47:45 +0000 Message-ID: <43105.1201294065@sa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 08e48e05374109708c00c6208b534009 > ... the AXFR issues, this implies a new QTYPE. disagree. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Jan 25 16:35:53 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIWDI-0001IC-Ve; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:35:52 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIWDH-0005qA-5K; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:35:52 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JIW7K-00048x-9P for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:29:42 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [199.212.90.4] (helo=monster.hopcount.ca) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JIW7H-00048V-HT for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:29:40 +0000 Received: from [199.212.90.28] (helo=yxu1b28.hopcount.ca) by monster.hopcount.ca with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JIW7C-000HCY-UN; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:29:35 +0000 Cc: Edward Lewis , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Message-Id: <814FD99B-14B3-413C-AF88-828EB990B018@ca.afilias.info> From: Joe Abley To: Olafur Gudmundsson In-Reply-To: <200801252003.m0PK3Qdh021460@ogud.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) Subject: Re: AXFR over UDP Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:29:34 -0500 References: <200801252003.m0PK3Qdh021460@ogud.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.915) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 On 25-Jan-2008, at 15:03, Olafur Gudmundsson wrote: > AXFR historically is over TCP lets keep it that way. > > ?XFR over UDP is a new protocol extension, define it in a separate > document > without any of the AXFR issues, this implies a new QTYPE. I'm not sure if the ongoing references to this as _A_XFR over UDP are intentional or not. As an operator of some large zones which update very frequently (e.g. many times per minute) but whose individual deltas are often small, a single-packet IXFR response is of greater interest than a single- packet AXFR response. (A single-packet NOTIFY with a complete, small delta in its hand luggage would also be interesting to consider; in some cases this might achieve in a single packet what we currently need about ten packets to achieve.) I'm not sure I understand the ramifications of the QTYPE choice sufficiently to make a comment on that. Joe -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Jan 25 16:38:55 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIWGF-0003o0-6m; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:38:55 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIWGD-0005tB-P4; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:38:55 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JIWB6-0004Z4-5I for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:33:36 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [199.212.90.4] (helo=monster.hopcount.ca) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JIWAz-0004YX-8M for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:33:30 +0000 Received: from [199.212.90.28] (helo=yxu1b28.hopcount.ca) by monster.hopcount.ca with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JIWAx-000HSv-V1; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:33:28 +0000 Cc: Edward Lewis , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Message-Id: <3A35F6BD-6DE1-4393-A21D-3538A5885455@ca.afilias.info> From: Joe Abley To: Olafur Gudmundsson In-Reply-To: <814FD99B-14B3-413C-AF88-828EB990B018@ca.afilias.info> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) Subject: Re: AXFR over UDP Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:33:27 -0500 References: <200801252003.m0PK3Qdh021460@ogud.com> <814FD99B-14B3-413C-AF88-828EB990B018@ca.afilias.info> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.915) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f On 25-Jan-2008, at 16:29, Joe Abley wrote: > On 25-Jan-2008, at 15:03, Olafur Gudmundsson wrote: > >> AXFR historically is over TCP lets keep it that way. >> >> ?XFR over UDP is a new protocol extension, define it in a separate >> document >> without any of the AXFR issues, this implies a new QTYPE. > > I'm not sure if the ongoing references to this as _A_XFR over UDP > are intentional or not. > > As an operator of some large zones which update very frequently > (e.g. many times per minute) but whose individual deltas are often > small, a single-packet IXFR response is of greater interest than a > single-packet AXFR response. Oh! RFC 1995 already defines IXFR responses over UDP. Never mind, then. > (A single-packet NOTIFY with a complete, small delta in its hand > luggage would also be interesting to consider; in some cases this > might achieve in a single packet what we currently need about ten > packets to achieve.) This still seems interesting to me, however, the demonstrated Friday- afternoon decrease in brain capacity notwithstanding. Joe -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Jan 25 17:08:41 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIWj3-00024H-GO; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:08:41 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIWj1-0006Qr-7T; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:08:41 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JIWdT-0007yD-1Q for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 22:02:55 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::1] (helo=sa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JIWdQ-0007xn-8j for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 22:02:53 +0000 Received: from sa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4291C11436; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 22:02:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@sa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: Joe Abley cc: Olafur Gudmundsson , Edward Lewis , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: AXFR over UDP In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:33:27 EST." <3A35F6BD-6DE1-4393-A21D-3538A5885455@ca.afilias.info> References: <200801252003.m0PK3Qdh021460@ogud.com> <814FD99B-14B3-413C-AF88-828EB990B018@ca.afilias.info> <3A35F6BD-6DE1-4393-A21D-3538A5885455@ca.afilias.info> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.0.2; nmh 1.0.4; GNU Emacs 21.3.1 Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 22:02:50 +0000 Message-ID: <47616.1201298570@sa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f > > As an operator of some large zones which update very frequently > > (e.g. many times per minute) but whose individual deltas are often > > small, a single-packet IXFR response is of greater interest than a > > single-packet AXFR response. > > Oh! RFC 1995 already defines IXFR responses over UDP. Never mind, then. yes. but, as far as i know, no IXFR initiator implementation has an option to offer a 64K EDNS0 buffer size (assuming the host's IP stack can handle it) and so, the definition of "small" is still somewhat obstructive to your goal. > > (A single-packet NOTIFY with a complete, small delta in its hand luggage > > would also be interesting to consider; in some cases this might achieve > > in a single packet what we currently need about ten packets to achieve.) > > This still seems interesting to me, however, the demonstrated Friday- > afternoon decrease in brain capacity notwithstanding. the NOTIFY initiator is a potential IXFR/AXFR master and as such it knows its own serial number. it does not know the serial number of the NOTIFY responder and so it has no basis for a delta. right now the ideal sequence is: NOTIFY (new serial number) -------------> IXFR/AXFR slave <------------- thank you IXFR/AXFR master <------------------ IXFR request (old serial number) zone delta (old to new) -----------> so, four packets. not too bad. dunno if it's worth optimising further. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From alienufo@earthlink.net Fri Jan 25 18:39:28 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIY8u-00047M-CI for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 18:39:28 -0500 Received: from [201.29.194.165] (helo=20129194165.user.veloxzone.com.br) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIY8t-000427-NQ for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jan 2008 18:39:28 -0500 Message-ID: <000401c85fab$02eb53ed$d6adaeb4@hpacd> From: "binky yeong" To: Subject: 60% Off All Luxury Designer Shoes & Boots Men & Women Gucci Prada Chanel Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:50:34 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 OMG! 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A response to a few messages on this thread. I see the point of a new QTYPE because in a way we are breaking layering, that is, the preparation and handling of the message is impacted by the choice of transport. But I still think it fits into AXFR, because the biggest impact still is in the preparation of the transport, and may be the only impact if I disagree with something else Paul said: At 18:12 +0000 1/25/08, Paul Vixie wrote: > >i think we can skip the final SOA in this case. (we know where the end is.) Here is my thinking on this. When an AXFR server receives an AXFR query it has to remember the transport it came in on, but otherwise gather data the same way. Remembering the transport isn't too far fetched (I guess) because today the server has to remember the EDNS0 and TSIG/SIG(0) situation too. I think that the inclusion of the closing SOA is still needed. An aside, I assume that as it stands today, two SOA's would be in one AXFR response on TCP. If it is that way with TCP, maintaining that with UDP means one less special consideration, that it, the payloads are equivalent. On transmitting the AXFR, the AXFR server would have to prepare the response on UDP just a bit differently. After fitting into the proper AXFR response message size, if there are extra records left over the server would need to signal this via the TC bit and not prepare another message. (Also, the lack of the SOA would signal that you don't have everything.) As far as the AXFR client is concerned, if they see an AXFR response on UDP that means only one special code branch is needed - check the TC bit and if it is one, do AXFR over TCP and discard this answer. (I know that sometimes an AXFR client can make use of a truncated message, but in the case of AXFR it doesn't make sense because you are trying to replicate the zone.) If the TC bit is clear, then it no longer matters which transport was used, especially if we don't optimize out the second SOA RR. Oh, and BTW, yes, this all will be moved to another document. That goes back to my goal of being able to have "RFC 7503" define AXFR service, with "RFC 7792" define the option of having AXFR over UDP. Also, the AXFR over UDP is something new, at least in spec. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 NeuStar Think glocally. 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http://bigtimesavec.cn/ ------=_NextPart_000_73CF_01C8606C.A478E520-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sat Jan 26 20:15:03 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIw6x-000691-4t; Sat, 26 Jan 2008 20:15:03 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIw6t-0007E2-7n; Sat, 26 Jan 2008 20:15:03 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JIvyQ-000122-Uf for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 01:06:14 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [131.112.32.132] (helo=necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JIvyO-00011Z-A4 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 01:06:13 +0000 Received: (qmail 588 invoked from network); 27 Jan 2008 01:52:57 -0000 Received: from softbank219178199025.bbtec.net (HELO necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp) (219.178.199.25) by necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Jan 2008 01:52:57 -0000 Message-ID: <479BD8DE.8010409@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:05:34 +0900 From: Masataka Ohta User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; ja-JP; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: ja, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: AXFR over UDP References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Edward Lewis wrote: > Since then there some things have changed. One is the network is a > little healthier (a minor adjustment, meaning UDP probably gets through > more and more in order than back then), EDNS0 has happened, and we have > a need for lots of small zones popping up (as for web hosting). It > seems like AXFR over UDP might fit a need and might be easily added to > the definition. Considering that such small zones needs very infrequent updates that there is virtually no load reduction. Moreover, changes, if any, will likely fit within single UDP IXFR messages and, in most cases, the messages will be less than 512B long. So, I can see no reason for protocol extension of AXFR over UDP. Or, are there any real example where AXFR over UDP is helpful? Masataka Ohta PS IXFR over UDP could be useful to reduce load of servers for zones such as "com" which is frequently queried and frequently updated. Larger zones needs more frequent update. Anycast reduces query load but does not reduce update load. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From dnsewell@mindspring.com Sun Jan 27 04:44:48 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJ44G-0004Bl-Ps for dnsext-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 04:44:48 -0500 Received: from [92.112.204.135] (helo=amd64) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJ44E-0003J2-GM for dnsext-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 04:44:48 -0500 X-AntiVirus: Checked by Dr.Web [version: 4.31a, engine: 4.31a, virus records: 46409, updated: 22.02.2004] Content-Return: allowed X-Mailer: CME-V6.5.4.3; MSN Received: (qmail 7661 by uid 390); Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:44:46 +0200 Message-Id: <20080127134446.7663.qmail@amd64> To: Subject: January 77% OFF From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 3.7 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 88b11fc64c1bfdb4425294ef5374ca07
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Jan 27 08:49:13 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJ7sn-0006Eb-Tj; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 08:49:13 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJ7sm-0002Qy-6W; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 08:49:13 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJ7lv-000MJT-PR for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 13:42:07 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [202.224.39.217] (helo=mails1.asahi-net.or.jp) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJ7lt-000MIw-By for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 13:42:06 +0000 Received: from mailav1.asahi-net.or.jp (mailav1.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.220]) by mails1f.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with SMTP id 55F41C604 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 22:42:04 +0900 (JST) Received: from mails2.asahi-net.or.jp ([202.224.39.218]) by mailav1.asahi-net.or.jp (NAVGW 2.5.2.9) with SMTP id M2008012722420301226 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 22:42:03 +0900 Received: from limmax.priv.k2r.org (s163221.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [220.157.163.221]) by mails2.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAE68C610 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 22:42:03 +0900 (JST) Received: (qmail 53277 invoked by uid 1000); 27 Jan 2008 13:42:03 -0000 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 22:42:03 +0900 From: Kenji Rikitake To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: MUST for the implementation of for the operator? (Was: version -01 of draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile sent Message-ID: <20080127134203.GA53067%kenji.rikitake@acm.org> References: <9146D840-1654-4D32-8BFC-2F14CD1420CC@apnic.net> <20080124151044.GA15010@nic.fr> <6723C910-2C6E-4946-858A-D09EE65B7B16@eng.colt.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6723C910-2C6E-4946-858A-D09EE65B7B16@eng.colt.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab In the message <6723C910-2C6E-4946-858A-D09EE65B7B16@eng.colt.net> dated Thu, Jan 24, 2008 at 10:13:15PM +0100, Ralf Weber writes: > AFAIR (it's been some time since I used it) djbdns only does zone > transfers over DNS (and even these are strange sometimes), it does not > answer normal DNS request via TCP. For the dns servers in djbdns-1.05: tinydns, rbldns, walldns (all authoritative servers) DOES NOT respond to TCP queries. dnscache DOES respond to TCP queries (as a cache). axfrdns also DOES accept TCP queries. // Kenji Rikitake -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Jan 27 10:22:05 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJ9Kf-0007yv-Kz; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:22:05 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJ9Kd-00059d-LY; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:22:05 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJ9DZ-0007ZS-5b for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 15:14:45 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.92.146.160] (helo=ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJ9DW-0007Yo-OJ for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 15:14:43 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.106] (hlid.ogud.com [66.92.146.160]) by ogud.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0RFDC4v035748; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:13:13 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <479BD8DE.8010409@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> References: <479BD8DE.8010409@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:12:03 -0500 To: Masataka Ohta From: Edward Lewis Subject: Re: AXFR over UDP Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 66.92.146.160 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d At 10:05 +0900 1/27/08, Masataka Ohta wrote: >Or, are there any real example where AXFR over UDP is helpful? You have a good point that IXFR is probably technically sufficient to accomplish the same task as far as performance goes. But one of the changes in the industry is the call for delivery of DNS data via zone transfer. What I mean is the DNS operator is being asked to give AXFR access to the zone data (in addition to a query interface) presumably because the customer wants to also run an ersatz authoritative server they control. (To be more precise, "to be able to run one" if they choose.) IXFR is a great addition to DNS and it is in use in large, churning zone environments. But AXFR is still much simpler, especially when it comes to a human understanding it. For people unaccustomed to the DNS protocol's inner workings, AXFR is what is known and is what is requested most often. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 NeuStar Think glocally. Act confused. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From dukeofed@gerrysplace.com Sun Jan 27 11:37:25 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJAVZ-0002jT-H4; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:37:25 -0500 Received: from i577a31a6.versanet.de ([87.122.49.166]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJAVY-0006Rp-3M; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:37:25 -0500 Received: from [87.122.49.166] by mx.gerrysplace.com; , 27 Jan 2008 17:35:55 +0100 Date: , 27 Jan 2008 17:35:55 +0100 From: "Randi Richardson" X-Mailer: The Bat! (v2.01) Business Reply-To: dukeofed@gerrysplace.com X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <913073386.03379214412987@gerrysplace.com> To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Data Base , 27 Jan 2008 17:35:55 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 1.7 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 2870a44b67ee17965ce5ad0177e150f4 Every Med we stock is onsale today See our special prices at http://thechristianear.com From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Jan 27 11:44:45 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJAcf-0005dA-9j; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:44:45 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJAcb-0007qP-Oh; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:44:45 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJAXu-000LeE-8H for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 16:39:50 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::1] (helo=sa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJAXr-000Ldn-EM for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 16:39:48 +0000 Received: from sa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4E971142E; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 16:39:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@sa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: Edward Lewis cc: Masataka Ohta , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: AXFR over UDP In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:12:03 EST." References: <479BD8DE.8010409@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.0.2; nmh 1.0.4; GNU Emacs 21.3.1 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 16:39:46 +0000 Message-ID: <72185.1201451986@sa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 > >Or, are there any real example where AXFR over UDP is helpful? > > You have a good point that IXFR is probably technically sufficient to > accomplish the same task as far as performance goes. But one of the > changes in the industry is the call for delivery of DNS data via zone > transfer. ... this sounds like a need for "IXFR from serial 0" to return a full zone then. > IXFR is a great addition to DNS and it is in use in large, churning zone > environments. But AXFR is still much simpler, especially when it comes to > a human understanding it. For people unaccustomed to the DNS protocol's > inner workings, AXFR is what is known and is what is requested most often. if we can fit a whole dns zone into a single udp datagram, then the largest cost in the whole transaction will be the round trip. that's why i think we should optimise the transaction to avoid these. one example is to have the response to an SOA query be, if solicited and available, a full zone. (i sent this proposal here the other day.) there may be other ways to do this, but the important piece is, if it's not going to work (like, UDP AXFR is not supported) then let's not make everybody waste an extra round trip finding out that it's not going to work. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Jan 27 12:38:54 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJBT4-0003um-Th; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 12:38:54 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJBSy-0000Zo-TR; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 12:38:54 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJBMi-0003ss-Fs for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 17:32:20 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [202.28.99.196] (helo=jade.coe.psu.ac.th) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJBMa-0003rS-TU for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 17:32:15 +0000 Received: from epsilon.noi.kre.to (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jade.coe.psu.ac.th with ESMTP id m0RHSEF2017194; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 00:28:16 +0700 (ICT) Received: from epsilon.noi.kre.to (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by epsilon.noi.kre.to (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0RHPfrI006706; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 00:26:35 +0700 (ICT) From: Robert Elz To: Edward Lewis cc: Masataka Ohta , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: AXFR over UDP In-Reply-To: References: <479BD8DE.8010409@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 00:25:41 +0700 Message-ID: <6075.1201454741@epsilon.noi.kre.to> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: fb6060cb60c0cea16e3f7219e40a0a81 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:12:03 -0500 From: Edward Lewis Message-ID: | For people unaccustomed to the | DNS protocol's inner workings, AXFR is what is known and is what is | requested most often. I think you missed Matasaka-san's point, which was that AXFR over TCP is just fine for this purpose, the extra overhead of TCP is irrelevant as any zone small enough to fit in a rational (including using EDNS0) response isn't going to have enough data in it for it to almost ever alter. The zones with high frequency updates, the ones likely to be responsible for most AXFR requests, are the bigger ones (say 10-20 names in them, which is getting beyond UDP). While I'm here, in an earlier message | From: Paul Vixie | Subject: Re: AXFR over UDP | i think we can skip the final SOA in this case. (we know where the end is.) That won't work in an (unusual, not really legal, but happens) case (imagine a zone containing only the SOA, and nothing else - I know it should have NS as well, but ...) | in this way, a new initiator could solicit a whole-zone response using an | EDNS0 buffer size of 64K (who cares about IP fragmentation if it's rare | enough?). Really Paul, you should know better than that, fragmentation is just plain evil, and anything to avoid it is a good idea. A 64KB UDP packet is something of the order of 40 wire level datagrams. At the internet typical 1-2% packet drop rate, someone who knows more probability maths then me can work out how many times on average that 64KB datagram is going to have to be sent before one copy of it all arrives successfully - and that most probably wouldn't be taking account of the 40 (or so) packets being sent back-to-back, which considerably increases the drop probability of those fragments (in some environments, to close to certain for some of them.) If the transfer is in a local LAN, where drop probabilities are 0 (more or less) then the extra overhead (RTTs and ACKs) for TCP are totally irrelevant. I have no objection to anyone who feels the desire implementing AXFR over UDP, provided that's the only change made to the AXFR protocol (just to allow it to happen). And then I'd assume that in practice it wouldn't be used enough for anyone to notice it. And then from a much more recent message from Paul ... | but the important piece is, if it's not going to work (like, UDP AXFR | is not supported) then let's not make everybody waste an extra round | trip finding out that it's not going to work. Surely, AXFR (whether via TCP or UDP) is going to remain a config (setup) time decision, not something that's being performed dynamically on random zones for fun? Given that, is one extra round trip, when the first attempt is made (assuming one assumes UDP AXFR is worth doing at all) a cost worth speding more than 2 or 3 seconds deciding not to bother saving? Let's optimise wheat needs optimising, and not just anything that we think we can be clever about. kre -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Jan 27 13:00:50 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJBoI-0005MG-Ky; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 13:00:50 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJBoG-00013y-BK; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 13:00:50 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJBjA-0007DG-22 for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 17:55:32 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::1] (helo=sa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJBj7-0007CV-7e for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 17:55:30 +0000 Received: from sa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24B881143C; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 17:55:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@sa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: Robert Elz cc: Edward Lewis , Masataka Ohta , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: AXFR over UDP In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 28 Jan 2008 00:25:41 +0700." <6075.1201454741@epsilon.noi.kre.to> References: <479BD8DE.8010409@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <6075.1201454741@epsilon.noi.kre.to> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.0.2; nmh 1.0.4; GNU Emacs 21.3.1 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 17:55:27 +0000 Message-ID: <76209.1201456527@sa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 > | but the important piece is, if it's not going to work (like, UDP AXFR > | is not supported) then let's not make everybody waste an extra round > | trip finding out that it's not going to work. > > Surely, AXFR (whether via TCP or UDP) is going to remain a config (setup) > time decision, not something that's being performed dynamically on random > zones for fun? not random zones. every change to axfr, like for example ixfr, recommends that it be tried first and then fall back to axfr if it doesn't work, unless overridden by a local config option. if you're secondary for a lot of zones then the manual config option is so burdensome that the automation is used. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Jan 27 13:58:51 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJCiR-0006m6-MG; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 13:58:51 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJCiP-0002ri-Fh; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 13:58:51 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJCdv-000Exs-Cy for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 18:54:11 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [202.28.99.196] (helo=jade.coe.psu.ac.th) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJCdr-000Ex3-V0 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 18:54:10 +0000 Received: from epsilon.noi.kre.to (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jade.coe.psu.ac.th with ESMTP id m0RIolXc029767; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 01:50:52 +0700 (ICT) Received: from epsilon.noi.kre.to (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by epsilon.noi.kre.to (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0RIoXLV001974; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 01:50:36 +0700 (ICT) From: Robert Elz To: Paul Vixie cc: Edward Lewis , Masataka Ohta , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: AXFR over UDP In-Reply-To: <76209.1201456527@sa.vix.com> References: <76209.1201456527@sa.vix.com> <479BD8DE.8010409@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <6075.1201454741@epsilon.noi.kre.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 01:50:33 +0700 Message-ID: <9283.1201459833@epsilon.noi.kre.to> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 17:55:27 +0000 From: Paul Vixie Message-ID: <76209.1201456527@sa.vix.com> | not random zones. every change to axfr, like for example ixfr, recommends | that it be tried first and then fall back to axfr if it doesn't work, That's reasonable - "once" doesn't have to mean "once for each xfr operation" the server could just remember what worked last time (and if it really wanted, try again once a week in case the environment altered.) Apart from that, compared with configuring the name of the zone, and the primary server (or its address), which protocol variant to use is in the noise as far as burdensome goes. kre -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Jan 27 16:43:59 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJFIF-00075Z-1f; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 16:43:59 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJFIE-0006r8-N3; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 16:43:59 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJFDA-000Alw-ON for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 21:38:44 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:14b0:202:1::a7] (helo=mail.enyo.de) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJFD8-000AlK-2O for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 21:38:43 +0000 Received: from deneb.vpn.enyo.de ([212.9.189.177] helo=deneb.enyo.de) by mail.enyo.de with esmtp id 1JJFD1-000861-E5; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 22:38:35 +0100 Received: from fw by deneb.enyo.de with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1JJFCz-0004aV-NX; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 22:38:33 +0100 From: Florian Weimer To: Masataka Ohta Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: AXFR over UDP References: <479BD8DE.8010409@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 22:38:33 +0100 In-Reply-To: <479BD8DE.8010409@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> (Masataka Ohta's message of "Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:05:34 +0900") Message-ID: <87tzkzne3q.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c * Masataka Ohta: > So, I can see no reason for protocol extension of AXFR over UDP. Some operators will certainly hate us if their DNS software suddenly starts accepting AXFR over UDP because they thought that blocking 53/TCP prevented zone transfers. I'm not sure if this is a real argument against AXFR over UDP, but IMHO, there aren't any real arguments for it, either. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Jan 27 17:18:18 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJFpS-0000Rc-9a; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 17:18:18 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJFpR-0007UK-Tv; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 17:18:18 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJFlZ-000Fsl-6m for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 22:14:17 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc] (helo=drugs.dv.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJFlW-000Fs0-GU for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 22:14:15 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0RMDqHU061151; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 09:13:53 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200801272213.m0RMDqHU061151@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Robert Elz Cc: Paul Vixie , Edward Lewis , Masataka Ohta , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: AXFR over UDP In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 28 Jan 2008 01:50:33 +0700." <9283.1201459833@epsilon.noi.kre.to> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 09:13:52 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 > Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 17:55:27 +0000 > From: Paul Vixie > Message-ID: <76209.1201456527@sa.vix.com> > > | not random zones. every change to axfr, like for example ixfr, recommend > s > | that it be tried first and then fall back to axfr if it doesn't work, > > That's reasonable - "once" doesn't have to mean "once for each xfr operation" > the server could just remember what worked last time (and if it really > wanted, try again once a week in case the environment altered.) > > Apart from that, compared with configuring the name of the zone, and the > primary server (or its address), which protocol variant to use is in the > noise as far as burdensome goes. > > kre Also does anyone envision AXFR over UDP without IXFR? Remember you don't have to do deltas when you add IXFR support. Every response can be one of up-to-date, axfr-style-ixfr or fallback to TCP. The only time where the client does a AXFR in a AXFR/IXFR world is when the client is bootstrapping itself (never loaded or the zone expired). Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From akstcaddassublimemnsdgs@addassublime.com Mon Jan 28 02:03:01 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJO1F-0007fW-2n; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 02:03:01 -0500 Received: from [75.145.232.153] (helo=webserver01) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJO1D-0002DN-Tu; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 02:03:00 -0500 Received: from [75.145.232.153] by addassublime.com; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 02:13:26 -0500 Message-ID: <01c86153$5d92c9e0$99e8914b@akstcaddassublimemnsdgs> From: "Alberto Tripp" To: <6lowpan-bounces@lists.ietf.org> Subject: Re: time, it can increase risks for Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 02:13:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 6d62ab47271805379d7172ee693a45db FDAapprovedSoftTabsFDAapproved http://bmbgbi.costtocyme.info/?99777499 From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 28 02:10:48 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJO8m-0000O1-Es; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 02:10:48 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJO8g-0008Dg-Np; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 02:10:48 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJO1j-000NCo-Ut for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 07:03:31 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [131.112.32.132] (helo=necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJO1Z-000NBH-0f for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 07:03:22 +0000 Received: (qmail 70803 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2008 07:50:22 -0000 Received: from bmdi3125.bmobile.ne.jp (HELO necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp) (202.221.175.125) by necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Jan 2008 07:50:22 -0000 Message-ID: <479D7E0C.4070406@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 16:02:36 +0900 From: Masataka Ohta User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; ja-JP; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: ja, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: AXFR over UDP References: <479BD8DE.8010409@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <72185.1201451986@sa.vix.com> In-Reply-To: <72185.1201451986@sa.vix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb Paul Vixie wrote: > this sounds like a need for "IXFR from serial 0" to return a full zone then. Then, an IXFR client with really serial 0 will receive unexpected result. > if we can fit a whole dns zone into a single udp datagram, then the largest > cost in the whole transaction will be the round trip. The number of RTTs will really be a problem if XFR frequency is once in ten seconds or more. kre; > I think you missed Matasaka-san's point, which was that AXFR over > TCP is just fine for this purpose, the extra overhead of TCP is > irrelevant as any zone small enough to fit in a rational (including > using EDNS0) response isn't going to have enough data in it for it > to almost ever alter. Yes. Thank you. > The zones with high frequency updates, the > ones likely to be responsible for most AXFR requests, are the bigger > ones (say 10-20 names in them, which is getting beyond UDP). If contents of each name changes once a day, we need 8640 names to make XFR occur once in ten seconds. Masataka Ohta PS Are you all aware that poor DNSSEC is properly ignored in this thread? :-) -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 28 04:36:21 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJQPd-0001bP-E5; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 04:36:21 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJQPb-0002zZ-IJ; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 04:36:21 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJQJG-000Dou-Aq for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 09:29:46 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [192.134.4.11] (helo=mx2.nic.fr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJQJE-000Dob-3C for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 09:29:45 +0000 Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id E20C61C0110; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 10:29:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD0F31C00F4; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 10:29:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA35758EBBE; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 10:29:42 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 10:29:42 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Kenji Rikitake Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: MUST for the implementation of for the operator? (Was: version -01 of draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile sent Message-ID: <20080128092942.GA17323@nic.fr> References: <9146D840-1654-4D32-8BFC-2F14CD1420CC@apnic.net> <20080124151044.GA15010@nic.fr> <6723C910-2C6E-4946-858A-D09EE65B7B16@eng.colt.net> <20080127134203.GA53067%kenji.rikitake@acm.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080127134203.GA53067%kenji.rikitake@acm.org> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-5-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a On Sun, Jan 27, 2008 at 10:42:03PM +0900, Kenji Rikitake wrote a message of 22 lines which said: > For the dns servers in djbdns-1.05: > > tinydns, rbldns, walldns (all authoritative servers) > DOES NOT respond to TCP queries. According to their documentation, it is not true: http://cr.yp.to/djbdns/tcp.html The implementation DOES reply to TCP queries. The DEFAULT setup turns it off and, as a result, most running INSTANCES do not reply to TCP queries. That is a perfect illustration of the question I was asking (and on which I do not see a consensus). If the "profile" document says "DNS servers MUST reply to TCP", is djbdns illegal or not? Is a given instance of djbdns illegal or not? -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 28 04:36:25 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJQPh-0001bn-6R; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 04:36:25 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJQPg-0002zk-Qx; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 04:36:25 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJQLK-000E5A-DJ for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 09:31:54 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [192.134.4.11] (helo=mx2.nic.fr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJQLC-000E4G-W7 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 09:31:52 +0000 Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 5697D1C010F; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 10:31:46 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 518261C00F4; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 10:31:46 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43A4F58EBBE; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 10:31:46 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 10:31:46 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Florian Weimer Cc: Masataka Ohta , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: AXFR over UDP Message-ID: <20080128093146.GB17323@nic.fr> References: <479BD8DE.8010409@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <87tzkzne3q.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87tzkzne3q.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-5-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c On Sun, Jan 27, 2008 at 10:38:33PM +0100, Florian Weimer wrote a message of 15 lines which said: > Some operators will certainly hate us if their DNS software suddenly > starts accepting AXFR over UDP because they thought that blocking > 53/TCP prevented zone transfers. If they do it that way, they will have many other problems, anyway... -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 28 04:38:51 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJQS3-0003Ji-PZ; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 04:38:51 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJQS0-00031U-8G; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 04:38:51 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJQOq-000Ee8-BY for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 09:35:32 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:14b0:202:1::a7] (helo=mail.enyo.de) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJQOk-000EaN-10 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 09:35:30 +0000 Received: from deneb.vpn.enyo.de ([212.9.189.177] helo=deneb.enyo.de) by mail.enyo.de with esmtp id 1JJQOa-0002Pf-FR; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 10:35:16 +0100 Received: from fw by deneb.enyo.de with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1JJQOY-0002gI-4i; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 10:35:14 +0100 From: Florian Weimer To: Stephane Bortzmeyer Cc: Masataka Ohta , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: AXFR over UDP References: <479BD8DE.8010409@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <87tzkzne3q.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> <20080128093146.GB17323@nic.fr> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 10:35:14 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20080128093146.GB17323@nic.fr> (Stephane Bortzmeyer's message of "Mon, 28 Jan 2008 10:31:46 +0100") Message-ID: <87wspufg31.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 * Stephane Bortzmeyer: > On Sun, Jan 27, 2008 at 10:38:33PM +0100, > Florian Weimer wrote > a message of 15 lines which said: > >> Some operators will certainly hate us if their DNS software suddenly >> starts accepting AXFR over UDP because they thought that blocking >> 53/TCP prevented zone transfers. > > If they do it that way, they will have many other problems, anyway... Sure, I'm strongly in favor of unconditionally providing DNS over TCP, but there is little consensus to make this a requirement or even a recommendation. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 28 06:57:30 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJScE-0005DZ-Rj; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 06:57:30 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJScD-0005x1-5b; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 06:57:30 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJSVl-0006dm-Md for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 11:50:49 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [194.217.242.87] (helo=anchor-post-37.mail.demon.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJSVj-0006dN-8g for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 11:50:48 +0000 Received: from pr-webmail-1.demon.net ([194.159.244.51] helo=pr-webmail-1.mail.demon.net) by anchor-post-37.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) id 1JJSVi-0006cT-NI for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 11:50:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=web.mail.demon.net) by pr-webmail-1.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 4.42) id 1JJSVg-0007Pt-Pi for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 11:50:44 +0000 Received: from dcrdev.demon.co.uk ([213.86.197.188]) by web.mail.demon.net with http; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 11:50:44 +0000 From: dan@dcrdev.demon.co.uk To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Status of Dynamic DNS Update Leases Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 11:50:44 +0000 User-Agent: Demon-WebMail/2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Hello all, I note that this draft for Dynamic DNS Update Leases has expired: http://files.dns-sd.org/draft-sekar-dns-ul.txt Could anyone tell me if this (or equivalent behaviour) made it into a DNS-related RFC? 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http://hitethis.com.cn/ ------=_NextPart_000_37C3_01C86185.29FB9F80-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 28 08:28:08 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJU1w-000154-QS; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 08:28:08 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJU1t-0007pN-10; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 08:28:08 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJTvb-000NF6-A4 for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 13:21:35 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [131.112.32.132] (helo=necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJTvX-000NEC-4k for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 13:21:33 +0000 Received: (qmail 27194 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2008 14:05:26 -0000 Received: from 60-56-123-186.eonet.ne.jp (HELO necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp) (60.56.123.186) by necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Jan 2008 14:05:26 -0000 Message-ID: <479DD60B.1010908@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 22:18:03 +0900 From: Masataka Ohta User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; ja-JP; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: ja, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Masataka Ohta CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: AXFR over UDP References: <479BD8DE.8010409@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <72185.1201451986@sa.vix.com> <479D7E0C.4070406@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <479D7E0C.4070406@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Masataka Ohta wrote: > Paul Vixie wrote: > > >>this sounds like a need for "IXFR from serial 0" to return a full zone then. > > > Then, an IXFR client with really serial 0 will receive unexpected > result. Oops, as I reread RFC1995, it explicitely allows, with an explicite example in section 7, IXFR server perform AXFR with a single message which could be carried over UDP. So, if a namesever adminisrator wants so, an IXFR capable server may avoid incremental reply, even though serial is not 0, and always choose to use entire zone transfer over UDP or, if the non-incremental reply is lengthy, TCP AXFR. Sorry for my confusion. Masataka Ohta -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 28 08:47:26 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJUKc-0004om-OU; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 08:47:26 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJUKa-0008BG-Uv; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 08:47:26 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJUDl-000083-VY for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 13:40:21 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [202.224.39.218] (helo=mails2.asahi-net.or.jp) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJUDj-00007U-9N for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 13:40:20 +0000 Received: from mailav2.asahi-net.or.jp (mailav2.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.221]) by mails2f.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with SMTP id 97604C60F for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 22:40:18 +0900 (JST) Received: from mails2.asahi-net.or.jp ([202.224.39.218]) by mailav2.asahi-net.or.jp (NAVGW 2.5.2.9) with SMTP id M2008012822401814205 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 22:40:18 +0900 Received: from limmax.priv.k2r.org (s163221.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [220.157.163.221]) by mails2.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 948FBC614 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 22:40:17 +0900 (JST) Received: (qmail 65188 invoked by uid 1000); 28 Jan 2008 13:40:16 -0000 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 22:40:16 +0900 From: Kenji Rikitake To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: MUST for the implementation of for the operator? (Was: version -01 of draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile sent Message-ID: <20080128134016.GA65014%kenji.rikitake@acm.org> References: <9146D840-1654-4D32-8BFC-2F14CD1420CC@apnic.net> <20080124151044.GA15010@nic.fr> <6723C910-2C6E-4946-858A-D09EE65B7B16@eng.colt.net> <20080127134203.GA53067%kenji.rikitake@acm.org> <20080128092942.GA17323@nic.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080128092942.GA17323@nic.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 In the message <20080128092942.GA17323@nic.fr> dated Mon, Jan 28, 2008 at 10:29:19AM +0100, Stephane Bortzmeyer writes: > The implementation DOES reply to TCP queries. The DEFAULT setup turns > it off and, as a result, most running INSTANCES do not reply to TCP > queries. If you want to run an authoritative server listening both on TCP and UDP port 53 for djbdns, you need to run two programs listening to the same IP address; tinydns for UDP, axfrdns for TCP. djbdns-1.05's tinydns does not listen to TCP 53 port. See Makefile and server.c of djbdns-1.05 code. > That is a perfect illustration of the question I was asking (and on > which I do not see a consensus). If the "profile" document says "DNS > servers MUST reply to TCP", is djbdns illegal or not? Is a given > instance of djbdns illegal or not? So long as you can run djbdns to listen to both TCP and UDP for both non-recursive or recursive server, I think a rational answer to the question is that djbdns CAN be run to meet the condition that "DNS servers MUST reply to TCP". I don't feel like continuing on this does-or-does-not topic for djbdns is appropriate on the namedroppers list because this is an implementation-specific issue. // Kenji Rikitake -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 28 08:51:41 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJUOj-0001gm-28; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 08:51:41 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJUOi-0008G7-Lg; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 08:51:41 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJULT-0001H3-Dh for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 13:48:19 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [202.224.39.218] (helo=mails2.asahi-net.or.jp) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJULR-0001Gj-4X for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 13:48:18 +0000 Received: from mailav2.asahi-net.or.jp (mailav2.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.221]) by mails2f.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with SMTP id A81F7C60F for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 22:48:16 +0900 (JST) Received: from mails1.asahi-net.or.jp ([202.224.39.217]) by mailav2.asahi-net.or.jp (NAVGW 2.5.2.9) with SMTP id M2008012822481606366 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 22:48:16 +0900 Received: from limmax.priv.k2r.org (s163221.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [220.157.163.221]) by mails1.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F930C61A for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 22:48:16 +0900 (JST) Received: (qmail 65348 invoked by uid 1000); 28 Jan 2008 13:48:16 -0000 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 22:48:16 +0900 From: Kenji Rikitake To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: AXFR over UDP Message-ID: <20080128134816.GA65321%kenji.rikitake@acm.org> References: <479BD8DE.8010409@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <87tzkzne3q.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> <20080128093146.GB17323@nic.fr> <87wspufg31.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87wspufg31.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 In the message <87wspufg31.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> dated Mon, Jan 28, 2008 at 10:34:51AM +0100, Florian Weimer writes: > Sure, I'm strongly in favor of unconditionally providing DNS over TCP, I second that idea of unconditionally providing DNS over TCP, regarding the trend of DNS answers which keep getting larger and larger. // Kenji Rikitake -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From czpr.com@pesearch.com Mon Jan 28 09:07:29 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJUe1-0000Ji-5T for dnsext-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 09:07:29 -0500 Received: from [85.96.248.185] (helo=ifjsrnea) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJUe0-0004jY-Fo for dnsext-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 09:07:29 -0500 Message-ID: <000901c861b7$323fa380$0100007f@rscuui> From: "Cody Russell" To: Subject: FYI Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 16:07:38 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2905 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 3.9 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 microsoft expression studio 1.0 - 79 steinberg cubase sx 2.2.0.33 - 39 Type 'softnugood. com' in Internet Explorer (w/o spaces and quotes) microsoft visual basic professional 6.0 - 49 adobe creative suite 3 master collection for win - 299 roxio digitalmedia studio deluxe suite 7.0 - 49 adobe atmosphere 1.0 - 29 adobe illustrator cs2 - 59 discreet 3d studio max 6.0 with character studio - 129 intuit quicken home and business 2008 - 39 google sketchup pro 6 for mac - 59 ms windows 2003 enterprise server - 69 adobe premiere pro cs3 - 79 Save up to 76-91%! From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 28 10:04:34 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJVXG-0002Ih-Kb; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 10:04:34 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJVXA-0001L0-Tz; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 10:04:34 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJVRt-000C4x-Lw for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 14:59:01 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [199.212.90.4] (helo=monster.hopcount.ca) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJVRq-000BzM-Ad for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 14:59:00 +0000 Received: from [199.212.90.28] (helo=yxu1b28.hopcount.ca) by monster.hopcount.ca with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJVRX-000MHr-PG; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 14:58:40 +0000 Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Message-Id: From: Joe Abley To: Kenji Rikitake In-Reply-To: <20080128134816.GA65321%kenji.rikitake@acm.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) Subject: Re: AXFR over UDP Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 09:58:38 -0500 References: <479BD8DE.8010409@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <87tzkzne3q.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> <20080128093146.GB17323@nic.fr> <87wspufg31.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> <20080128134816.GA65321%kenji.rikitake@acm.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.915) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 On 28-Jan-2008, at 08:48, Kenji Rikitake wrote: > In the message <87wspufg31.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> > dated Mon, Jan 28, 2008 at 10:34:51AM +0100, > Florian Weimer writes: >> Sure, I'm strongly in favor of unconditionally providing DNS over >> TCP, > > I second that idea of unconditionally providing DNS over TCP, > regarding > the trend of DNS answers which keep getting larger and larger. I'm not sure I understand what these comments mean. If they mean that DNS service should always be available over TCP, then I thought that was the status quo (modulo firewall configuration incompetence). If they mean that DNS service should only be available over TCP, then I am concerned about the practicalities of answering 100,000 queries per second from a client population which might have a significant RTT from the server. Perhaps they mean something else? Joe -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 28 10:58:43 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJWNf-0003Qm-65; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 10:58:43 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJWNe-00036h-Ix; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 10:58:43 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJWK9-000LO3-PW for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:55:05 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [171.68.10.86] (helo=sj-iport-4.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJWK6-000LNe-SW for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:55:04 +0000 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.25,260,1199692800"; d="scan'208";a="4337873" Received: from sj-dkim-3.cisco.com ([171.71.179.195]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 28 Jan 2008 07:55:02 -0800 Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (sj-core-1.cisco.com [171.71.177.237]) by sj-dkim-3.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m0SFt2dB020018; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 07:55:02 -0800 Received: from xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-201.cisco.com [64.102.31.12]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id m0SFsx3X004845; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:55:02 GMT Received: from xfe-rtp-202.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.21]) by xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 28 Jan 2008 10:54:49 -0500 Received: from [161.44.65.151] ([161.44.65.151]) by xfe-rtp-202.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 28 Jan 2008 10:54:48 -0500 Message-ID: <479DFAC8.5020304@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 10:54:48 -0500 From: Josh Littlefield Organization: Cisco Systems User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Masataka Ohta CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: AXFR over UDP References: <479BD8DE.8010409@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <72185.1201451986@sa.vix.com> <479D7E0C.4070406@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <479DD60B.1010908@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <479DD60B.1010908@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jan 2008 15:54:48.0720 (UTC) FILETIME=[1C5AF100:01C861C6] DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=2044; t=1201535702; x=1202399702; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim3002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=joshl@cisco.com; z=From:=20Josh=20Littlefield=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20AXFR=20over=20UDP |Sender:=20; bh=Z3H0f9Nd0k2fkzy6JLUES2CMHXhpJ3G2xVk+4yWbL+o=; b=DloJa9+zj+b5BlBM6Y6ZT3SrOYaJVMRl1xLGKZko5eYHep5IhNdt8ApgQK P80jmSD/YqcJYtIhfE2IdA0bm/lA4BEk5DLBg+W/hZ5itF1nQCWwKenWvf2s +4sYbVxQnf; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-3; header.From=joshl@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim3002 verified; ); Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca Masataka Ohta wrote: > Masataka Ohta wrote: > >> Paul Vixie wrote: >> >>> this sounds like a need for "IXFR from serial 0" to return a full zone then. >>> >> Then, an IXFR client with really serial 0 will receive unexpected >> result. >> > > Oops, as I reread RFC1995, it explicitely allows, with an explicite > example in section 7, IXFR server perform AXFR with a single message > which could be carried over UDP. > > So, if a namesever adminisrator wants so, an IXFR capable server may > avoid incremental reply, even though serial is not 0, and always choose > to use entire zone transfer over UDP or, if the non-incremental reply > is lengthy, TCP AXFR The IXFR server can decide to send a full response, even over UDP, but the client can't request one. Making serial number 0 "special", in signalling the request for a full response, could be OK, since RFC 1982 encourages avoiding the use of serial number 0, since it was already considered "special" by some implementations. Of course, if the server actually uses serial 0 as a real number, then the client sending an IXFR request from serial 0, when the real serial is 10 or 20, might instead get a series of changesets from 0 to 10 or 20. An alternative form of IXFR request indicating the need for a full response could be to omit the SOA entirely in the request. I'm aware of some servers that already implement that. It takes what is currently a format error request and gives it meaning, which allows backward compatibility. It does not allow the server to avoid sending the response, because the server can't observe that the client is already up to date. But then, AXFR doesn't allow that either (on its own). -josh -- ===================================================================== Josh Littlefield Cisco Systems, Inc. joshl@cisco.com 1414 Massachusetts Avenue tel: 978-936-1379 fax: 978-936-2226 Boxborough, MA 01719-2205 -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 28 12:15:22 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJXZq-0005kh-1E; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 12:15:22 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJXZp-0005YO-NF; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 12:15:22 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJXS1-0006mL-Of for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 17:07:17 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::1] (helo=sa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJXRz-0006lz-3J for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 17:07:16 +0000 Received: from sa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 074811142E; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 17:07:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@sa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: Josh Littlefield cc: Masataka Ohta , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: AXFR over UDP In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 28 Jan 2008 10:54:48 EST." <479DFAC8.5020304@cisco.com> References: <479BD8DE.8010409@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <72185.1201451986@sa.vix.com> <479D7E0C.4070406@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <479DD60B.1010908@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <479DFAC8.5020304@cisco.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.0.2; nmh 1.0.4; GNU Emacs 21.3.1 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 17:07:14 +0000 Message-ID: <46836.1201540034@sa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 > An alternative form of IXFR request indicating the need for a full response > could be to omit the SOA entirely in the request. I'm aware of some servers > that already implement that. It takes what is currently a format error > request and gives it meaning, which allows backward compatibility. It does > not allow the server to avoid sending the response, because the server can't > observe that the client is already up to date. But then, AXFR doesn't allow > that either (on its own). > > -josh i love this signalling, both for the reasons josh gave above, and because it literally means "ixfr please, and i have no zone to send deltas against." -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From mdonalsonville@ietheric.net Mon Jan 28 12:15:36 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJXa4-00067I-GL for dnsext-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 12:15:36 -0500 Received: from [60.52.38.94] (helo=kjbn-661x3m49gu) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJXa3-0002cl-3T for dnsext-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 12:15:36 -0500 Content-Return: allowed X-Mailer: CME-V6.5.4.3; MSN Received: (qmail 4462 by uid 108); Tue, 29 Jan 2008 01:15:16 +0800 Message-Id: <20080129091516.4464.qmail@kjbn-661x3m49gu> To: Subject: January 78% OFF From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 3.7 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 311e798ce51dbeacf5cdfcc8e9fda21b
From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 28 12:24:29 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJXif-0003eJ-Bv; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 12:24:29 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJXie-0005tE-U6; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 12:24:29 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJXcI-0008U9-5A for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 17:17:54 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::1] (helo=sa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJXcF-0008Tm-AM for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 17:17:52 +0000 Received: from sa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1071611425 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 17:17:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@sa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: MUST for the implementation of for the operator? (Was: version -01 of draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-protocol-profile sent In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 28 Jan 2008 10:29:42 +0100." <20080128092942.GA17323@nic.fr> References: <9146D840-1654-4D32-8BFC-2F14CD1420CC@apnic.net> <20080124151044.GA15010@nic.fr> <6723C910-2C6E-4946-858A-D09EE65B7B16@eng.colt.net> <20080127134203.GA53067%kenji.rikitake@acm.org> <20080128092942.GA17323@nic.fr> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.0.2; nmh 1.0.4; GNU Emacs 21.3.1 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 17:17:51 +0000 Message-ID: <47356.1201540671@sa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 > According to their documentation, it is not true: > > http://cr.yp.to/djbdns/tcp.html > > The implementation DOES reply to TCP queries. The DEFAULT setup turns > it off and, as a result, most running INSTANCES do not reply to TCP > queries. i had no idea that axfrdns also answered normal (non-AXFR) queries. thanks. > That is a perfect illustration of the question I was asking (and on > which I do not see a consensus). If the "profile" document says "DNS > servers MUST reply to TCP", is djbdns illegal or not? Is a given > instance of djbdns illegal or not? there is no law on the internet and so the word "illegal" doesn't apply. there's only "will it work" and "will it scale" and "will it cause people to send me mail complaining" and "does it have rfc checkbox compatibility for my purchasing department." for all of those reasons, djbdns ought to default all of its installations to answering tcp, even if it retains a knob to allow some nameserver operators to turn it off due to local policy. in http://cr.yp.to/djbdns/tcp.html#why (part of the link you sent), it failed to mention "the other end might be temporarily or permanently firewalled in a way that keeps udp/53 from working for them". on the internet, other people's networks govern many of our policies and actions. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From adnulkcaubv@PrincetonWorldwide.com Mon Jan 28 13:01:40 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJYIe-0007f5-6B for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 13:01:40 -0500 Received: from [88.224.168.26] (helo=[88.254.46.20]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJYIT-0003zK-Pn for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 13:01:40 -0500 Received: (qmail 32132 invoked from network); Mon, 28 Jan 2008 20:01:33 +0200 Received: from unknown (HELO PrincetonWorldwide.com) (144.100.40.34) by with SMTP; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 20:01:32 +0200 Received: from localhost.localdomain ( [19.224.177.45]) by PrincetonWorldwide.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id yZWeEPSG193215 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 20:01:31 +0200 Message-Id: <441498370017.yZWeEPSG193215@302485.> Received: from phpmailer ([127.0.0.1]) by with HTTP; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 20:01:31 +0200 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 20:01:31 +0200 To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org From: "adnulkca" Subject: ageradim X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: phpmailer [version 1.54] Reply-To: adnulkcaubv@PrincetonWorldwide.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset = "iso-8859-1" X-Spam-Score: 3.6 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 01485d64dfa90b45a74269b3ca9d5574 http://porhirgsb.com/ Heaven is when my boyfriend started taking this wonder product, and gained 2 inches in less than 2 months. From dnsexpp@phat.net Mon Jan 28 14:14:22 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJZR0-0007NI-2W for dnsext-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 14:14:22 -0500 Received: from [89.136.237.144] (helo=home-xxrbaryee7) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJZQy-00063d-Hk for dnsext-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 14:14:21 -0500 Content-Return: allowed X-Mailer: CME-V6.5.4.3; MSN Received: (qmail 3416 by uid 567); Mon, 28 Jan 2008 09:14:03 +0200 Message-Id: <20080128111403.3418.qmail@home-xxrbaryee7> To: Subject: January 78% OFF From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 3.7 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 311e798ce51dbeacf5cdfcc8e9fda21b
From dns@excite.co.uk Mon Jan 28 14:14:23 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJZR1-0007Ne-Iw for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 14:14:23 -0500 Received: from [89.136.237.144] (helo=home-xxrbaryee7) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJZQz-00063g-O8 for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 14:14:23 -0500 Content-Return: allowed X-Mailer: CME-V6.5.4.3; MSN Received: (qmail 3420 by uid 567); Mon, 28 Jan 2008 09:14:04 +0200 Message-Id: <20080128111404.3422.qmail@home-xxrbaryee7> To: Subject: January 78% OFF From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 3.7 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 311e798ce51dbeacf5cdfcc8e9fda21b
From akstcaminremnsdgs@aminre.net Mon Jan 28 16:37:03 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJbf5-00015x-Ky; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 16:37:03 -0500 Received: from h37.ds10.univ.gda.pl ([153.19.195.37] helo=mamry-b8mksem8t.univ.gda.pl) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJbf4-0004j7-9g; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 16:37:03 -0500 Received: from [153.19.195.37] by mail.aminre.net; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 22:47:31 +0100 From: "Geraldine Justice" To: Subject: Re: begin as early as infancy. Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 22:47:31 +0100 Message-ID: <01c861ff$c3f97740$25c31399@akstcaminremnsdgs> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 Importance: Normal X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08e48e05374109708c00c6208b534009 BiggerOrgasms We can help http://comouyes.com no powers at my recommended by number of organisations. follow and I have July 2005). They have since are evaluating claims can be awarded that I have beento summarise some In my investigation render you any further services.discretion in relation would be.to other bodies.consequently not protected shall be pleased to out my final you were informed it would be useful standpoint, which and comprehensive A consequence of these number of organisations. shares were purchased From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 28 19:29:23 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJeLr-0002QI-Ah; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 19:29:23 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJeLq-0002Ar-Ua; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 19:29:23 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJeEd-000NXr-7U for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 00:21:55 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc] (helo=drugs.dv.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJeEa-000NXC-1h for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 00:21:53 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0T0LaXD038288; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 11:21:36 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200801290021.m0T0LaXD038288@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Paul Vixie Cc: Josh Littlefield , Masataka Ohta , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: AXFR over UDP In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 28 Jan 2008 17:07:14 -0000." <46836.1201540034@sa.vix.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 11:21:36 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 > > An alternative form of IXFR request indicating the need for a full response > > could be to omit the SOA entirely in the request. I'm aware of some server > s > > that already implement that. It takes what is currently a format error > > request and gives it meaning, which allows backward compatibility. It does > > not allow the server to avoid sending the response, because the server can' > t > > observe that the client is already up to date. But then, AXFR doesn't allo > w > > that either (on its own). > > > > -josh > > i love this signalling, both for the reasons josh gave above, and because > it literally means "ixfr please, and i have no zone to send deltas against." This is a BAD idea. AXFR over UDP should get a FORMERR from old and new servers. IXFR over UDP, no serial, is just a ordinary query to old servers and a FORMERR to new servers. What happens to a old server if you send: dig ixfr zone +rec +notcp AXFR and IXFR over UDP should only send the complete zone content when the request is signed or otherwise authenticated. AXFR and AXFR style IXFR over UDP make it increadibly easy to poison a slave server if you don't have a authenticated response. TCP gives you weak authentication but is generally good enough to prevent slave poisoning. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 28 19:47:22 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJedG-0005WY-1w; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 19:47:22 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJedE-0002Ty-4S; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 19:47:22 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJeXB-0000CA-VX for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 00:41:05 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [202.224.39.217] (helo=mails1.asahi-net.or.jp) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJeX9-0000Bp-K2 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 00:41:04 +0000 Received: from mailav1.asahi-net.or.jp (mailav1.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.220]) by mails1f.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with SMTP id F2BDCC607 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 09:41:02 +0900 (JST) Received: from mails1.asahi-net.or.jp ([202.224.39.217]) by mailav1.asahi-net.or.jp (NAVGW 2.5.2.9) with SMTP id M2008012909410220203 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 09:41:02 +0900 Received: from limmax.priv.k2r.org (s163221.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [220.157.163.221]) by mails1.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D974C607 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 09:41:02 +0900 (JST) Received: (qmail 70347 invoked by uid 1000); 29 Jan 2008 00:41:01 -0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 09:41:01 +0900 From: Kenji Rikitake To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: AXFR over UDP Message-ID: <20080129004101.GA70184%kenji.rikitake@acm.org> References: <479BD8DE.8010409@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <87tzkzne3q.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> <20080128093146.GB17323@nic.fr> <87wspufg31.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> <20080128134816.GA65321%kenji.rikitake@acm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 In the message dated Mon, Jan 28, 2008 at 09:58:15AM -0500, Joe Abley writes: > If they mean that DNS service should always be available over TCP, > then I thought that was the status quo (modulo firewall configuration > incompetence). I also think in most part of the Internet this is the status quo, but I feel more strong message is needed. > If they mean that DNS service should only be available over TCP, then > I am concerned about the practicalities of answering 100,000 queries > per second from a client population which might have a significant RTT > from the server. I don't mean this - I think DNS MUST support UDP as it is now. // Kenji Rikitake -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 28 23:23:06 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJi02-00066o-PF; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 23:23:06 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJi00-0006Si-5B; Mon, 28 Jan 2008 23:23:06 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJht6-000L2j-SE for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 04:15:56 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [199.212.90.4] (helo=monster.hopcount.ca) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJht4-000L2R-9z for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 04:15:55 +0000 Received: from [199.212.90.28] (helo=yxu1b28.hopcount.ca) by monster.hopcount.ca with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJht2-0003tD-0b; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 04:15:52 +0000 Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Message-Id: From: Joe Abley To: Kenji Rikitake In-Reply-To: <20080129004101.GA70184%kenji.rikitake@acm.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) Subject: Re: AXFR over UDP Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 23:15:51 -0500 References: <479BD8DE.8010409@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <87tzkzne3q.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> <20080128093146.GB17323@nic.fr> <87wspufg31.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> <20080128134816.GA65321%kenji.rikitake@acm.org> <20080129004101.GA70184%kenji.rikitake@acm.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.915) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 On 28-Jan-2008, at 19:41, Kenji Rikitake wrote: > In the message > dated Mon, Jan 28, 2008 at 09:58:15AM -0500, > Joe Abley writes: >> If they mean that DNS service should always be available over TCP, >> then I thought that was the status quo (modulo firewall configuration >> incompetence). > > I also think in most part of the Internet this is the status quo, but > I feel more strong message is needed. Ah, thanks. I now understand your point, and I agree with it. Joe -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From akstcanigrandusamnsdgs@anigrandusa.com Tue Jan 29 05:16:43 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJnWE-0007hX-D3; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 05:16:42 -0500 Received: from [59.16.55.135] (helo=computer.kornet) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJnWD-0000Nk-5h; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 05:16:42 -0500 Received: from [59.16.55.135] by mail.anigrandusa.com; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:27:14 +0900 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:27:14 +0900 From: "Jannie Weiss" X-Mailer: The Bat! (v2.00.0) Personal Reply-To: akstcanigrandusamnsdgs@anigrandusa.com X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <633375709.65386939801333@anigrandusa.com> To: 6lowpan-bounces@lists.ietf.org Subject: Re: love to do. 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From whoo@tpc-school.com Tue Jan 29 13:51:54 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJvYo-0006Q3-OH for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 13:51:54 -0500 Received: from 51-38-89.adsl.terra.cl ([200.89.38.51] helo=chupalojaime) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJvYn-0003w3-HF for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 13:51:54 -0500 Received: from [200.89.38.51] by mx2.firstserver.ne.jp; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 15:14:08 -0400 Message-ID: <01c86289$97fc6000$332659c8@whoo> From: "Tamera Sheets" To: Subject: Re: Sheets Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 15:14:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.2663 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.2663 X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 6d62ab47271805379d7172ee693a45db If a relaxing moment turns into the right moment, will you be ready? http://www.smsigoea.com It is clear that principles will help is more good, overview of the situation. someone struggles that they're From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 29 15:03:38 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJwgE-0005Ao-Di; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 15:03:38 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJwgA-0003RN-SC; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 15:03:38 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJwTE-000OPb-CT for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:50:12 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:14b0:202:1::a7] (helo=mail.enyo.de) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJwTB-000OPD-E6 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:50:11 +0000 Received: from deneb.vpn.enyo.de ([212.9.189.177] helo=deneb.enyo.de) by mail.enyo.de with esmtp id 1JJwT3-0000Sn-HH; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 20:50:01 +0100 Received: from fw by deneb.enyo.de with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1JJwT1-0004n6-98; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 20:49:59 +0100 From: Florian Weimer To: Joe Abley Cc: Kenji Rikitake , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: AXFR over UDP References: <479BD8DE.8010409@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <87tzkzne3q.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> <20080128093146.GB17323@nic.fr> <87wspufg31.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> <20080128134816.GA65321%kenji.rikitake@acm.org> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 20:49:59 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Joe Abley's message of "Mon, 28 Jan 2008 09:58:38 -0500") Message-ID: <87wspsfm3c.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 * Joe Abley: > If they mean that DNS service should always be available over TCP, > then I thought that was the status quo (modulo firewall configuration > incompetence). No, I don't think there is consensus to make TCP support a MUST, neither operationally or as a feature. Even for resolvers, it's currently just an old-style SHOULD (but with a caveat that TCP support may become necessary). Here's the relevant paragraph from RFC 1123: | DNS servers MUST be able to service UDP queries and SHOULD | be able to service TCP queries. A name server MAY limit the | resources it devotes to TCP queries, but it SHOULD NOT | refuse to service a TCP query just because it would have | succeeded with UDP. To some operators, not following the recommendation regarding TCP seems to be quite important. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From akstcandhomemnsdgs@andhome.net Tue Jan 29 15:30:10 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJx5u-0000yw-Lh; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 15:30:10 -0500 Received: from [86.125.253.197] (helo=home-feqnf51c5j.rdsar.ro) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJx5t-0001vk-Gn; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 15:30:10 -0500 Received: from [86.125.253.197] by inbound.andhome.net.netsolmail.net; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 22:40:47 +0200 From: "Luisa Cantrell" To: Subject: Circus Circle Hat Tue, 29 Jan 2008 22:40:47 +0200 Rock Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 22:40:47 +0200 Message-ID: <01c862c7$fd6f4180$c5fd7d56@akstcandhomemnsdgs> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 6d62ab47271805379d7172ee693a45db WeCarry AllTheHard ToFindMeds http://reliable-marvelously.com From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 29 18:44:11 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JK07f-0000zn-II; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 18:44:11 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JK07c-0002Q2-Ug; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 18:44:11 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJzyh-000KeJ-3K for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 23:34:55 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc] (helo=drugs.dv.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JJzye-000Kdx-Aq for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 23:34:53 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0TNXKl1013298; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 10:33:21 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200801292333.m0TNXKl1013298@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Florian Weimer Cc: Joe Abley , Kenji Rikitake , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: AXFR over UDP In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 29 Jan 2008 20:49:59 BST." <87wspsfm3c.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 10:33:20 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: e8a67952aa972b528dd04570d58ad8fe > * Joe Abley: > > > If they mean that DNS service should always be available over TCP, > > then I thought that was the status quo (modulo firewall configuration > > incompetence). > > No, I don't think there is consensus to make TCP support a MUST, neither > operationally or as a feature. Even for resolvers, it's currently just > an old-style SHOULD (but with a caveat that TCP support may become > necessary). > > Here's the relevant paragraph from RFC 1123: > > | DNS servers MUST be able to service UDP queries and SHOULD > | be able to service TCP queries. A name server MAY limit the > | resources it devotes to TCP queries, but it SHOULD NOT > | refuse to service a TCP query just because it would have > | succeeded with UDP. > > To some operators, not following the recommendation regarding TCP seems > to be quite important. And I wonder how many actually know enough about the DNS to make a properly informed decision, as is required, to disobey the SHOULD. * "SHOULD" This word or the adjective "RECOMMENDED" means that there may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore this item, but the full implications should be understood and the case carefully weighed before choosing a different course. I also wonder how many that disable TCP to their authoritative nameservers actually end up depending apon others permitting TCP connections to their servers. This SHOULD has had amazing negative repercusions all over the DNS with operators trying to squeeze answers into 512 octets because they can't be sure that all of their clients can get the answer via TCP. The resolving path should become a MUST support answers up to 65535 bytes. That's all the way up into the application. As a DNS library developer we learnt this lesson years ago. Mark > -- > to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with > the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. > archive: -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 29 19:04:37 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JK0RR-0006BF-QF; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:04:37 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JK0RQ-00035X-9m; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:04:37 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JK0MM-000Mzq-JZ for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 23:59:22 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [129.9.40.82] (helo=odvirpr6.extra.daimlerchrysler.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JK0MK-000My5-4e for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 23:59:21 +0000 Received: from odnavip4-hme0.oddc.chrysler.com (unknown [53.231.99.241]) by odvirpr6.extra.daimlerchrysler.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0B0F51623EA for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 18:59:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from wokcdts1.is.chrysler.com ([53.230.98.85]) by odnavip4-hme0.oddc.chrysler.com (SMSSMTP 4.1.7.33) with SMTP id M2008012918591504538 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 18:59:15 -0500 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wokcdts1.is.chrysler.com (8.13.6/8.9.1) with ESMTP id m0TNxFA0014129 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 18:59:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <479FBDD3.4030206@chrysler.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 18:59:15 -0500 From: Kevin Darcy User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20070802) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Clarification Request (Truncation) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 RFC 2181, Section 9 states: "The TC bit should be set in responses only when an RRSet is required as a part of the response, but could not be included in its entirety." So, if an authoritative nameserver responds to a QTYPE=SOA query, with the SOA RR in the Answer Section, but cannot fit all of the apex NS records of the zone into the Authority Section, should it set TC or not? Let's say that the answer to the above question is "do not set TC in that case", but a nameserver *improperly* sets TC in the response. What is the client to do with the response? The same section of RFC 2181 states: "When a DNS client receives a reply with TC set, it should ignore that response, and query again, using a mechanism, such as a TCP connection, that will permit larger replies.". But the client, being well versed in RFC 2181, Section 9, knows without a doubt that the TC was *improperly* set, and it has the answer it was seeking (the SOA RR). So why not, in the spirit of "be liberal in what you accept" (Robustness Principle, RFC 1123, Section 1.2.2) and "Avoid unnecessary transmissions" (RFC 1034, Section 5.3.3), accept the answer *as*is*? Since SOA is a "singleton" RR type, there is no possibility that the RRset in the Answer Section is a partial one. There seems to be no obvious downside in accepting such an answer. - Kevin -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 29 19:32:02 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JK0ry-0003l4-MI; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:32:02 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JK0ry-0003Vd-7B; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:32:02 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JK0oL-000PrI-7I for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 00:28:17 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc] (helo=drugs.dv.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JK0oI-000PpU-1D for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 00:28:15 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0U0S8wa013859; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 11:28:08 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200801300028.m0U0S8wa013859@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Kevin Darcy Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: Clarification Request (Truncation) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 29 Jan 2008 18:59:15 CDT." <479FBDD3.4030206@chrysler.com> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 11:28:08 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: f4c2cf0bccc868e4cc88dace71fb3f44 > RFC 2181, Section 9 states: "The TC bit should be set in responses only > when an RRSet is required as a part of the response, but could not be > included in its entirety." > > So, if an authoritative nameserver responds to a QTYPE=SOA query, with > the SOA RR in the Answer Section, but cannot fit all of the apex NS > records of the zone into the Authority Section, should it set TC or not? Yes. NS records in the authority section from a authoritative server fill a gap in the DNS specifications. They perform two functions. 1. replaces glue with authoritative data in the cache, this aids in the migration to a new set of nameservers. This is a double edged sword as caches can get locked onto old servers if they are not configured to serve the new zone content. Cache work around the later by not updating the ttl if the NS RRsets are otherwise equal. 2. Allows caches to see the nameservers for a child zone where a server for a parent zone also serves the child zone either officially or as a stealth server. Mark > Let's say that the answer to the above question is "do not set TC in > that case", but a nameserver *improperly* sets TC in the response. What > is the client to do with the response? The same section of RFC 2181 > states: "When a DNS client receives a reply with TC set, it should > ignore that response, and query again, using a mechanism, such as a TCP > connection, that will permit larger replies.". But the client, being > well versed in RFC 2181, Section 9, knows without a doubt that the TC > was *improperly* set, and it has the answer it was seeking (the SOA RR). > So why not, in the spirit of "be liberal in what you accept" (Robustness > Principle, RFC 1123, Section 1.2.2) and "Avoid unnecessary > transmissions" (RFC 1034, Section 5.3.3), accept the answer *as*is*? > Since SOA is a "singleton" RR type, there is no possibility that the > RRset in the Answer Section is a partial one. There seems to be no > obvious downside in accepting such an answer. > > > - Kevin > > > -- > to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with > the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. > archive: -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 29 19:55:18 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JK1EU-0005ht-GJ; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:55:18 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JK1ET-0004N6-0I; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:55:18 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JK16Z-0001n8-Qx for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 00:47:07 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [129.9.40.82] (helo=odvirpr6.extra.daimlerchrysler.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JK16X-0001mn-2k for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 00:47:06 +0000 Received: from odnavip4-hme0.oddc.chrysler.com (unknown [53.231.99.241]) by odvirpr6.extra.daimlerchrysler.com (Postfix) with SMTP id D588216239C for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:47:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from wokcdts1.is.chrysler.com ([53.230.98.85]) by odnavip4-hme0.oddc.chrysler.com (SMSSMTP 4.1.7.33) with SMTP id M2008012919470306868 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:47:03 -0500 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wokcdts1.is.chrysler.com (8.13.6/8.9.1) with ESMTP id m0U0l3vg014216 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:47:03 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <479FC907.5090303@chrysler.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:47:03 -0500 From: Kevin Darcy User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20070802) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Clarification Request (Truncation) References: <200801300028.m0U0S8wa013859@drugs.dv.isc.org> In-Reply-To: <200801300028.m0U0S8wa013859@drugs.dv.isc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b Mark Andrews wrote: >> RFC 2181, Section 9 states: "The TC bit should be set in responses only >> when an RRSet is required as a part of the response, but could not be >> included in its entirety." >> >> So, if an authoritative nameserver responds to a QTYPE=SOA query, with >> the SOA RR in the Answer Section, but cannot fit all of the apex NS >> records of the zone into the Authority Section, should it set TC or not? >> > > Yes. NS records in the authority section from a authoritative > server fill a gap in the DNS specifications. They perform > two functions. > > 1. replaces glue with authoritative data in the cache, this > aids in the migration to a new set of nameservers. This > is a double edged sword as caches can get locked onto old > servers if they are not configured to serve the new zone > content. Cache work around the later by not updating the > ttl if the NS RRsets are otherwise equal. > > 2. Allows caches to see the nameservers for a child zone where > a server for a parent zone also serves the child zone either > officially or as a stealth server. > > This is "helpful" information, but is it *required* information? RFC 2181 says "required". Remember, this is an SOA query I'm talking about. If the client wanted to know the NS records for the zone, it could ask for them. - Kevin -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 29 20:49:12 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JK24e-0004np-Ir; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 20:49:12 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JK24e-0005GK-5D; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 20:49:12 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JK20S-0008fk-3G for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 01:44:52 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc] (helo=drugs.dv.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JK20O-0008eq-NQ for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 01:44:50 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0U1iglM050551; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 12:44:43 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200801300144.m0U1iglM050551@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Kevin Darcy Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: Clarification Request (Truncation) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:47:03 CDT." <479FC907.5090303@chrysler.com> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 12:44:42 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca > Mark Andrews wrote: > >> RFC 2181, Section 9 states: "The TC bit should be set in responses only > >> when an RRSet is required as a part of the response, but could not be > >> included in its entirety." > >> > >> So, if an authoritative nameserver responds to a QTYPE=SOA query, with > >> the SOA RR in the Answer Section, but cannot fit all of the apex NS > >> records of the zone into the Authority Section, should it set TC or not? > >> > > > > Yes. NS records in the authority section from a authoritative > > server fill a gap in the DNS specifications. They perform > > two functions. > > > > 1. replaces glue with authoritative data in the cache, this > > aids in the migration to a new set of nameservers. This > > is a double edged sword as caches can get locked onto old > > servers if they are not configured to serve the new zone > > content. Cache work around the later by not updating the > > ttl if the NS RRsets are otherwise equal. > > > > 2. Allows caches to see the nameservers for a child zone where > > a server for a parent zone also serves the child zone either > > officially or as a stealth server. > > > This is "helpful" information, but is it *required* information? RFC > 2181 says "required". > > Remember, this is an SOA query I'm talking about. If the client wanted > to know the NS records for the zone, it could ask for them. The intermediate caching resolvers need it. Not every client needs every bit of every response however some client needs some bits of a response and as we don't have a signaling mechanism to say exactly what parts of the response are needed by what clients the server has to assume that every client may need all parts of the response. Mark > - Kevin -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 29 21:30:04 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JK2iC-0000aO-3x; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 21:30:04 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JK2i8-0005l6-4p; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 21:30:03 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JK2bH-000CJp-FX for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 02:22:55 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [199.212.90.4] (helo=monster.hopcount.ca) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JK2bE-000CJW-Vx for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 02:22:54 +0000 Received: from [199.212.90.28] (helo=yxu1b28.hopcount.ca) by monster.hopcount.ca with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JK2bB-000GCM-Mk; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 02:22:50 +0000 Cc: Kevin Darcy , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Message-Id: <20A8EB56-B7C7-4C1E-BD14-FDDDC1479E6F@ca.afilias.info> From: Joe Abley To: Mark Andrews In-Reply-To: <200801300144.m0U1iglM050551@drugs.dv.isc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) Subject: Re: Clarification Request (Truncation) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 21:22:49 -0500 References: <200801300144.m0U1iglM050551@drugs.dv.isc.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.915) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 On 29-Jan-2008, at 20:44, Mark Andrews wrote: >> Remember, this is an SOA query I'm talking about. If the client >> wanted >> to know the NS records for the zone, it could ask for them. > > The intermediate caching resolvers need it. If it's a caching resolver that's sending the query in question, surely the caching resolver *is* the client. Joe -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 29 21:54:32 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JK35s-00063u-Jc; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 21:54:32 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JK35q-00065F-V7; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 21:54:32 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JK31d-000EV9-Mq for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 02:50:09 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [129.9.168.76] (helo=shvirpr4.extra.daimlerchrysler.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JK31a-000EUh-Sd for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 02:50:08 +0000 Received: from shnavip4-hme0.shdc.chrysler.com (unknown [53.231.141.98]) by shvirpr4.extra.daimlerchrysler.com (Postfix) with SMTP id D278110FD38 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 21:40:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from wokcdts1.is.chrysler.com ([53.230.98.85]) by shnavip4-hme0.shdc.chrysler.com (SMSSMTP 4.1.7.33) with SMTP id M2008012921493803887 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 21:49:38 -0500 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wokcdts1.is.chrysler.com (8.13.6/8.9.1) with ESMTP id m0U2nc2K014447 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 21:49:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <479FE5C2.7080104@chrysler.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 21:49:38 -0500 From: Kevin Darcy User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20070802) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Clarification Request (Truncation) References: <200801300144.m0U1iglM050551@drugs.dv.isc.org> In-Reply-To: <200801300144.m0U1iglM050551@drugs.dv.isc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 082a9cbf4d599f360ac7f815372a6a15 Mark Andrews wrote: >> Mark Andrews wrote: >> >>>> RFC 2181, Section 9 states: "The TC bit should be set in responses only >>>> when an RRSet is required as a part of the response, but could not be >>>> included in its entirety." >>>> >>>> So, if an authoritative nameserver responds to a QTYPE=SOA query, with >>>> the SOA RR in the Answer Section, but cannot fit all of the apex NS >>>> records of the zone into the Authority Section, should it set TC or not? >>>> >>>> >>> Yes. NS records in the authority section from a authoritative >>> server fill a gap in the DNS specifications. They perform >>> two functions. >>> >>> 1. replaces glue with authoritative data in the cache, this >>> aids in the migration to a new set of nameservers. This >>> is a double edged sword as caches can get locked onto old >>> servers if they are not configured to serve the new zone >>> content. Cache work around the later by not updating the >>> ttl if the NS RRsets are otherwise equal. >>> >>> 2. Allows caches to see the nameservers for a child zone where >>> a server for a parent zone also serves the child zone either >>> officially or as a stealth server. >>> >> This is "helpful" information, but is it *required* information? RFC >> 2181 says "required". >> >> Remember, this is an SOA query I'm talking about. If the client wanted >> to know the NS records for the zone, it could ask for them. >> > > The intermediate caching resolvers need it. Not every > client needs every bit of every response however some client > needs some bits of a response and as we don't have a signaling > mechanism to say exactly what parts of the response are > needed by what clients the server has to assume that every > client may need all parts of the response. > > Is there any caching resolver implementation that isn't smart enough to follow up an SOA query with an NS query if it thinks it also needs the NS records and they're missing from the first response? I'll note that there is a widely-used DNS implementation out there (not BIND) that doesn't appear to populate the Authority Section *at*all* in response to SOA queries. Is this implementation causing any problems with intermediate caching resolvers? - Kevin -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 29 22:38:00 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JK3lw-0003xF-Fx; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 22:38:00 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JK3lv-0006fx-VI; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 22:38:00 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JK3h4-000Hwo-LG for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 03:32:58 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc] (helo=drugs.dv.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JK3h1-000HwG-Ju for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 03:32:57 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0U3WnSY062365; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:32:50 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200801300332.m0U3WnSY062365@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Kevin Darcy Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: Clarification Request (Truncation) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 29 Jan 2008 21:49:38 CDT." <479FE5C2.7080104@chrysler.com> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:32:49 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 4b800b1eab964a31702fa68f1ff0e955 > Mark Andrews wrote: > >> Mark Andrews wrote: > >> > >>>> RFC 2181, Section 9 states: "The TC bit should be set in responses only > >>>> when an RRSet is required as a part of the response, but could not be > >>>> included in its entirety." > >>>> > >>>> So, if an authoritative nameserver responds to a QTYPE=SOA query, with > >>>> the SOA RR in the Answer Section, but cannot fit all of the apex NS > >>>> records of the zone into the Authority Section, should it set TC or not? > >>>> > >>>> > >>> Yes. NS records in the authority section from a authoritative > >>> server fill a gap in the DNS specifications. They perform > >>> two functions. > >>> > >>> 1. replaces glue with authoritative data in the cache, this > >>> aids in the migration to a new set of nameservers. This > >>> is a double edged sword as caches can get locked onto old > >>> servers if they are not configured to serve the new zone > >>> content. Cache work around the later by not updating the > >>> ttl if the NS RRsets are otherwise equal. > >>> > >>> 2. Allows caches to see the nameservers for a child zone where > >>> a server for a parent zone also serves the child zone either > >>> officially or as a stealth server. > >>> > >> This is "helpful" information, but is it *required* information? RFC > >> 2181 says "required". > >> > >> Remember, this is an SOA query I'm talking about. If the client wanted > >> to know the NS records for the zone, it could ask for them. > >> > > > > The intermediate caching resolvers need it. Not every > > client needs every bit of every response however some client > > needs some bits of a response and as we don't have a signaling > > mechanism to say exactly what parts of the response are > > needed by what clients the server has to assume that every > > client may need all parts of the response. > > > > > Is there any caching resolver implementation that isn't smart enough to > follow up an SOA query with an NS query if it thinks it also needs the > NS records and they're missing from the first response? Caching resolvers learn about NS RRsets as side effects of performing other queries. The only times caching resolvers make explicit NS queries are to prime or when trying to find the correct servers to answer a DS query. > I'll note that there is a widely-used DNS implementation out there (not > BIND) that doesn't appear to populate the Authority Section *at*all* in > response to SOA queries. Is this implementation causing any problems > with intermediate caching resolvers? Well if you care about correctly spreading load or quick movement when changing delegations it does. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From erbmasse@airraro.co.ck Tue Jan 29 23:02:45 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JK49s-0004fm-Vl for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 23:02:45 -0500 Received: from host190-2-dynamic.18-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it ([79.18.2.190] helo=host126-3-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JK49s-0006TM-61 for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 23:02:44 -0500 Message-ID: <000a01c862f4$e18dfba0$7e03104f@acereec2e0702c> From: "Janek Josephian" To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Here comes help for the under-endowed With this all your confidence will be regained Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 05:02:07 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C862FD.435263A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 ----------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C862FD.435263A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There will be no more room in your pants once you try this ----------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C862FD.435263A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There will be no more room in your = pants once=20 you try this ----------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C862FD.435263A0-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 29 23:17:15 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JK4Nv-0007Sc-4e; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 23:17:15 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JK4Nt-000795-A2; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 23:17:15 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JK4Jl-000Kzn-0K for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 04:12:57 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [129.9.168.76] (helo=shvirpr4.extra.daimlerchrysler.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JK4Jh-000Kz9-V2 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 04:12:55 +0000 Received: from shnavip4-hme0.shdc.chrysler.com (unknown [53.231.141.98]) by shvirpr4.extra.daimlerchrysler.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A2C5110FB9A for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 23:03:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from wokcdts1.is.chrysler.com ([53.230.98.85]) by shnavip4-hme0.shdc.chrysler.com (SMSSMTP 4.1.7.33) with SMTP id M2008012923125307201 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 23:12:53 -0500 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wokcdts1.is.chrysler.com (8.13.6/8.9.1) with ESMTP id m0U4CrZL014588 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 23:12:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <479FF945.7060203@chrysler.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 23:12:53 -0500 From: Kevin Darcy User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20070802) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Clarification Request (Truncation) References: <200801300332.m0U3WnSY062365@drugs.dv.isc.org> In-Reply-To: <200801300332.m0U3WnSY062365@drugs.dv.isc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 386e0819b1192672467565a524848168 Mark Andrews wrote: >> Mark Andrews wrote: >> >>>> Mark Andrews wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>> RFC 2181, Section 9 states: "The TC bit should be set in responses only >>>>>> when an RRSet is required as a part of the response, but could not be >>>>>> included in its entirety." >>>>>> >>>>>> So, if an authoritative nameserver responds to a QTYPE=SOA query, with >>>>>> the SOA RR in the Answer Section, but cannot fit all of the apex NS >>>>>> records of the zone into the Authority Section, should it set TC or not? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Yes. NS records in the authority section from a authoritative >>>>> server fill a gap in the DNS specifications. They perform >>>>> two functions. >>>>> >>>>> 1. replaces glue with authoritative data in the cache, this >>>>> aids in the migration to a new set of nameservers. This >>>>> is a double edged sword as caches can get locked onto old >>>>> servers if they are not configured to serve the new zone >>>>> content. Cache work around the later by not updating the >>>>> ttl if the NS RRsets are otherwise equal. >>>>> >>>>> 2. Allows caches to see the nameservers for a child zone where >>>>> a server for a parent zone also serves the child zone either >>>>> officially or as a stealth server. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> This is "helpful" information, but is it *required* information? RFC >>>> 2181 says "required". >>>> >>>> Remember, this is an SOA query I'm talking about. If the client wanted >>>> to know the NS records for the zone, it could ask for them. >>>> >>>> >>> The intermediate caching resolvers need it. Not every >>> client needs every bit of every response however some client >>> needs some bits of a response and as we don't have a signaling >>> mechanism to say exactly what parts of the response are >>> needed by what clients the server has to assume that every >>> client may need all parts of the response. >>> >>> >>> >> Is there any caching resolver implementation that isn't smart enough to >> follow up an SOA query with an NS query if it thinks it also needs the >> NS records and they're missing from the first response? >> > > Caching resolvers learn about NS RRsets as side effects of > performing other queries. The only times caching resolvers > make explicit NS queries are to prime or when trying to find > the correct servers to answer a DS query. > > >> I'll note that there is a widely-used DNS implementation out there (not >> BIND) that doesn't appear to populate the Authority Section *at*all* in >> response to SOA queries. Is this implementation causing any problems >> with intermediate caching resolvers? >> > > Well if you care about correctly spreading load or quick > movement when changing delegations it does. > > My point is: while it may be useful in the general case to put those NS records into the Authority Section, in my interpretation of RFC 2181, TC should *not* be set if it so happens that they don't fit. To do so risks triggering an unnecessary TCP retry. Since there is at least one implementation out there which does not provide this Authority Section information, without any noticeable ill effects, I think it's fair to say it's not *necessary*. I don't ask any of this from idle curiosity. We're dealing with a production issue and I'm trying to sort out how much of it is due to standards nonconformance and how much of it is due to discretionary design choices made by particular implementations. - Kevin -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 30 02:28:32 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JK7N2-0000RH-JE; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 02:28:32 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JK7N0-0001O1-3D; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 02:28:32 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JK7G8-0009th-Rn for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 07:21:25 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [85.17.178.134] (helo=stipula.dds.nl) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JK7G5-0009tN-QK for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 07:21:23 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stipula.dds.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0F2B5640A4; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 08:21:20 +0100 (CET) Received: from stipula.dds.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (stipula.dds.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09136-05; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 08:21:15 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.254.1] (82-170-145-155-static.dsl.ip.tiscali.nl [82.170.145.155]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by stipula.dds.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AEBE5640FB; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 08:21:13 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <47A02563.2040007@nlnetlabs.nl> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 08:21:07 +0100 From: "W.C.A. Wijngaards" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071115) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kevin Darcy CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Clarification Request (Truncation) References: <200801300332.m0U3WnSY062365@drugs.dv.isc.org> <479FF945.7060203@chrysler.com> In-Reply-To: <479FF945.7060203@chrysler.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.90.1/5600/Tue Jan 29 22:52:23 2008 on stipula.dds.nl X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi Kevin, Answer section and authority section must be complete, else, set the TC bit. Additional section can be partial. |>>>>>> RFC 2181, Section 9 states: "The TC bit should be set in |>>>>>> responses only when an RRSet is required as a part of the |>>>>>> response, but could not be included in its entirety." |>>>>>> |>>>>>> So, if an authoritative nameserver responds to a QTYPE=SOA query, |>>>>>> with the SOA RR in the Answer Section, but cannot fit all of the |>>>>>> apex NS records of the zone into the Authority Section, should it |>>>>>> set TC or not? |>>>>>> |>>>>> Yes. NS records in the authority section from a authoritative |>>>>> server fill a gap in the DNS specifications. They perform |>>>>> two functions. Yes, too. RFC 4035, 3.1.1 says very clearly that omission of RRs in the authority section causes the TC bit to be set. I also interpret 2181 in the same way. It means that the client can assume that an RRset, if present in the authority section, is a complete RRset (and not 'truncated silently'). If you think that NS rrsets are not that critical, they should be put in the additional section, which causes exactly the processing you are alluding to. I do not agree with that position, the authority section carries valuable information. As Mark says: for the spreading of load by gossiping about other nameservers. In dnssec, contains NSECs. Note that for NSEC3, the client *cannot* requery for missing NSEC3 records from the authority section. The latest nsec3 draft forbids direct NSEC3 queries (in an attempt to de-complicate it). Best regards, ~ Wouter -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHoCVjkDLqNwOhpPgRApjIAJ98onAE5b58s8EPTavhwbFm/2uFJACcCPq6 o1tBnHMziDDmGNEpL+t4Ehc= =f8l1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 30 03:30:09 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JK8Kf-0004jF-4w; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 03:30:09 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JK8KU-0002JI-7a; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 03:30:09 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JK8EC-000FIF-3p for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 08:23:28 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [202.28.99.196] (helo=jade.coe.psu.ac.th) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JK8E3-000FFk-Dl for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 08:23:25 +0000 Received: from epsilon.noi.kre.to (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jade.coe.psu.ac.th with ESMTP id m0U8KlsN011910; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 15:20:54 +0700 (ICT) Received: from epsilon.noi.kre.to (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by epsilon.noi.kre.to (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0U8IBke012533; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 15:18:39 +0700 (ICT) From: Robert Elz To: Kevin Darcy cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Clarification Request (Truncation) In-Reply-To: <479FBDD3.4030206@chrysler.com> References: <479FBDD3.4030206@chrysler.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 15:18:11 +0700 Message-ID: <23417.1201681091@epsilon.noi.kre.to> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5ebbf074524e58e662bc8209a6235027 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 18:59:15 -0500 From: Kevin Darcy Message-ID: <479FBDD3.4030206@chrysler.com> | RFC 2181, Section 9 states: "The TC bit should be set in responses only | when an RRSet is required as a part of the response, but could not be | included in its entirety." That's correct. | So, if an authoritative nameserver responds to a QTYPE=SOA query, with | the SOA RR in the Answer Section, but cannot fit all of the apex NS | records of the zone into the Authority Section, should it set TC or not? No, it should not, but also notice from section 9 ... In such cases the entire RRSet that will not fit in the response should be omitted, and the reply sent as is, with the TC bit clear. That is, the correct behavior is to send the SOA answer, and leave the authority section empty in the scenario that you posed (unless there's some other RRSet that could go there, and fits, of course). That avoids a server that really only ever wanted the SOA record, and did not need the NS records from having to query again using TCP, when the SOA record itself fitted just fine in the initial answer. If the resolver needs the NS records, it must query again anyway, they don't fit in the initial response. It can perhaps do that with UDP, without the SOA record they might fit (should fit if the admin has planned things properly), or if they don't, that reply will be sent with TC set, as it is not acceptable to just send back an empty answer (see sect 5.1.) | Let's say that the answer to the above question is "do not set TC in | that case", but a nameserver *improperly* sets TC in the response. What | is the client to do with the response? Treat it like any other response with TC set and query again. That's really all it can do (though I guess that it could notice that the answer section was complete, and simply drop the auth section, as if the server had never sent it, and continue). | The same section of RFC 2181 | states: "When a DNS client receives a reply with TC set, it should | ignore that response, and query again, using a mechanism, such as a TCP | connection, that will permit larger replies.". That's what was intended, yes. | But the client, being | well versed in RFC 2181, Section 9, knows without a doubt that the TC | was *improperly* set, and it has the answer it was seeking (the SOA RR). | So why not, in the spirit of "be liberal in what you accept" (Robustness | Principle, RFC 1123, Section 1.2.2) and "Avoid unnecessary | transmissions" (RFC 1034, Section 5.3.3), accept the answer *as*is*? As long as you mean just the answer, as in answer section, that should do no real harm - of course, such a resolver would be behaving just as improperly as the server that sent the response, though in neither case is any actual harm (DNS harm, as distinct from workload hrm) being done. | Since SOA is a "singleton" RR type, there is no possibility that the | RRset in the Answer Section is a partial one. There seems to be no | obvious downside in accepting such an answer. That's not the correct analysis, we don't want such things handled by special casing some of the RR types that way. Better, is that the resolver can see that the answer section is correct, the header says how many RRs are to be expected there (which should include any that do not fit because of TC), the resolver can detect that the last expected answer RR is within the data contained in the received packet, so it knows that the answer section is complete, and hence any RRSets contained in it are complete, which is what matters most. However, I don't think we need to waste much time specifying just how a resolver that is (clearly) acting in opposition to he spec should behave so as to cause least damage - far better would be to find and fix whatever server sent the dumb response in the first place. Only a lazy implementation would ever do that - there's no good reason for leaving the (partially complete) auth section RRSet in the response - leaving it there and setting TC will just cause a (correct) resolver to retry with TCP, when it might not really have needed to, which is a waste of everyone's resources, and what's more, just makes the initial reply bigger, carrying data that cannot be useful to the resolver - if the auth section is not complete, then nothing in it can be used by the resolver (there's no way to tell which RRSet there was incomplete, unless there is only one of course - either way, the entire auth section is useless). Leaving out the RRset that will not fit at least makes the packet a few bytes smaller, avoids TC (and a TCP retry) and if there are any other RRSets in the auth section that do fit, the resolver gets them for free. Lastly, some of the other answers either missed the point, or we just wrong, there are no special cases here for some record types, other than the ones (DNSSec RRs, if those ones still exist...) mentioned in 2181. kre ps: all this is usually more likely when considering the A (and AAAA) RRSets in the additional section that accompany the NS records in the auth section. There, there are several RRSets (one for each NS) - leaving out just the (complete) RRSets that do not fit means that some others will fit, and be useful, leaving the resolver with less other queries needed to fetch the rest of the data. -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From cheesew40@galileeagency.com Wed Jan 30 04:08:26 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JK8vh-0005AI-Ud for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 04:08:25 -0500 Received: from [41.202.67.102] (helo=[41.202.67.102]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JK8vg-0004PI-HX for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 04:08:25 -0500 Received: from [41.202.67.102] by mail-fwd.g14.rapidsite.net; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 09:08:24 +0000 Message-ID: <01c8631f$aac17400$6643ca29@cheesew40> From: "Andre Ledbetter" To: Subject: Click Here to have your questions answered by our support team. 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We look forward to your success! http://ulsoias.com From Dru-{{ktenem@albu.com.br Wed Jan 30 04:33:20 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JK9Jo-0007Rq-1G for dnsext-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 04:33:20 -0500 Received: from [41.221.17.87] (helo=[41.221.16.115]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JK9Ix-00058s-QO for dnsext-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 04:33:19 -0500 Message-ID: <000701c86323$098ab6b0$7310dd29@soufiane8f3c4a> From: "Dru Rodgers" To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Small instruments are not a cause for concern - you will be amazed at the results Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 10:32:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C8632B.6B4CD4C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 ----------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C8632B.6B4CD4C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There will be no more room in your pants once you try this ----------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C8632B.6B4CD4C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There will be no more room in your = pants once=20 you try this ----------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C8632B.6B4CD4C0-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 30 04:39:32 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JK9Po-0000IH-26; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 04:39:32 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JK9Pn-0003xs-N6; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 04:39:32 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JK9Ig-000LaB-NJ for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 09:32:10 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc] (helo=drugs.dv.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JK9IU-000LYl-QS for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 09:32:00 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0U9VlNk040366; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 20:31:47 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200801300931.m0U9VlNk040366@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Robert Elz Cc: Kevin Darcy , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: Clarification Request (Truncation) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 30 Jan 2008 15:18:11 +0700." <23417.1201681091@epsilon.noi.kre.to> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 20:31:47 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Or workout why there is a excessive number of NS records there and remove them. If the delegation is being properly maintained the delegation itself will cause TC to be set as will any answer from a cache. In neither of the last two cases in the NS RRset the least bit optional. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From Fuerte-garagent@PrecisionLandscape.com Wed Jan 30 07:31:04 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JKC5o-0006jN-0z for dnsext-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 07:31:04 -0500 Received: from [85.21.178.194] (helo=[85.21.178.194]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JKC5n-0002WD-Dp for dnsext-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 07:31:03 -0500 Message-ID: <001101c8633c$5b6f7d80$c2b21555@co100> From: "Fuerte Polito" To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Small instruments are not a cause for concern - you will be amazed at the results Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 15:33:46 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C86355.80BCB580" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 2.4 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 ----------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C86355.80BCB580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Give it to her good with your super-large c0ck ----------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C86355.80BCB580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Give it to her good with your = super-large=20 c0ck ----------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C86355.80BCB580-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 30 09:11:09 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JKDef-0001Au-5X; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 09:11:09 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JKDeW-0003Dv-Vt; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 09:11:09 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JKDT3-0002Cd-5B for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 13:59:09 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [202.28.99.196] (helo=jade.coe.psu.ac.th) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JKDSm-00023g-8K for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 13:59:07 +0000 Received: from epsilon.noi.kre.to (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jade.coe.psu.ac.th with ESMTP id m0UDr25o009054; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 20:53:15 +0700 (ICT) Received: from epsilon.noi.kre.to (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by epsilon.noi.kre.to (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0UDqYZm025608; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 20:52:41 +0700 (ICT) From: Robert Elz To: Mark Andrews cc: Kevin Darcy , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Clarification Request (Truncation) In-Reply-To: <200801300931.m0U9VlNk040366@drugs.dv.isc.org> References: <200801300931.m0U9VlNk040366@drugs.dv.isc.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 20:52:34 +0700 Message-ID: <29787.1201701154@epsilon.noi.kre.to> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 20:31:47 +1100 From: Mark Andrews Message-ID: <200801300931.m0U9VlNk040366@drugs.dv.isc.org> | Or workout why there is a excessive number of NS records | there and remove them. Yes, of course, but that's a different issue. That's just poor configuration - but attempts to legislate against that are self-contradictory so the best we can do is to make sure that things are handled sanely when there is a poor config. | If the delegation is being properly | maintained the delegation itself will cause TC to be set | as will any answer from a cache. Not necessarily in the situation posed - it may be that it is only when there is also something in the answer section that the NS RRSet is too large (and more, the example cited was the relatively large SOA record in the answer section). | In neither of the last | two cases in the NS RRset the least bit optional. Yes, for a referral, the auth section is required - in effect, it is the answer (as much of an answer as this reply contains anyway), and there, if the NS RRSet doesn't fit, TC is essential, just sending an empty answer (without TC) isn't appropriate at all. The same might be true (though less importantly) for the SOA in the auth section when RCODE != 0, though it is fairly hard to imagine that RRSet (that RR) ever being so big as to exceed the limits of UDP (though it is theoretically possible). kre -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From assasos{1987@SUPERPLUS.NET Wed Jan 30 14:43:21 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JKIq9-0005YT-Lu for dnsext-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:43:21 -0500 Received: from host38-186-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it ([87.11.186.38] helo=host155-178-dynamic.13-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JKIq9-0006QE-0a for dnsext-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:43:21 -0500 Message-ID: <000601c86378$5e377fe0$9bb20d57@home> From: "tasos Marriott" To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Gain inches in weeks, and have your manhood grow thicker in days Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 20:43:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C86380.BFFA6140" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 3.1 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 ----------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C86380.BFFA6140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Don't let your love life suffer because your weener is tiny - you can = put on inches with this quick and simple solution ----------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C86380.BFFA6140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Don't let your love life suffer = because your=20 weener is tiny - you can put on inches with this quick and simple=20 solution ----------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C86380.BFFA6140-- From LourdesprofitZiegler@computerworld.com Wed Jan 30 16:05:45 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JKK7t-0007xW-Hq; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 16:05:45 -0500 Received: from 5acb3b44.bb.sky.com ([90.203.59.68] helo=home1397deb519) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JKK7t-0001DD-3F; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 16:05:45 -0500 Received: from basidiomycetes by computerworld.com with SMTP id yVUvxtb1G8 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 21:04:46 +0000 From: "Caitlin Trotter" To: , Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JKKO9-0007LK-Q7; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 16:22:33 -0500 Received: from host86-137-3-40.range86-137.btcentralplus.com ([86.137.3.40] helo=sndc59400111.home) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JKKO9-0002I8-8W; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 16:22:33 -0500 Received: from bullseye by merriam-webster.com with SMTP id ZHrj2xWcOA for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 21:22:01 +0000 From: "Jillian Langston" To: , Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JKKY7-0000pe-An; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 16:32:51 -0500 Received: from f24028.upc-f.chello.nl ([80.56.24.28] helo=SN034644420458.arnhem.chello.nl) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JKKY6-0002Xt-2v; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 16:32:51 -0500 Received: from [80.56.24.28] by ironport2.west.mail.above.net; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 23:07:08 +0100 From: "Ella Allison" To: Subject: I was looking for you Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 23:07:08 +0100 Message-ID: <01c86394$d650fa80$1c183850@a-1096> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2616 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 Importance: Normal X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8eae9af85e4fcfe76f325e38493bf4 Hello! 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Wijngaards wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hi Kevin, > > Answer section and authority section must be complete, else, set the TC > bit. Additional section can be partial. > > |>>>>>> RFC 2181, Section 9 states: "The TC bit should be set in > |>>>>>> responses only when an RRSet is required as a part of the > |>>>>>> response, but could not be included in its entirety." > |>>>>>> > |>>>>>> So, if an authoritative nameserver responds to a QTYPE=SOA query, > |>>>>>> with the SOA RR in the Answer Section, but cannot fit all of the > |>>>>>> apex NS records of the zone into the Authority Section, should it > |>>>>>> set TC or not? > |>>>>>> > |>>>>> Yes. NS records in the authority section from a authoritative > |>>>>> server fill a gap in the DNS specifications. They perform > |>>>>> two functions. > > Yes, too. > > RFC 4035, 3.1.1 says very clearly that omission of RRs in the authority > section causes the TC bit to be set. I also interpret 2181 in the same > way. It means that the client can assume that an RRset, if present in > the authority section, is a complete RRset (and not 'truncated > silently'). I agree that if the TC bit is clear there should be no partial RRsets in the response. RFC 2181 states as much. But should TC be set just because some helpful but not *necessary* information _might_ have been put in the Authority Section, but was too big to fit? Seems to me TC should be reserved for data that *must* go in the response but *cannot*. Not for mere "would be nice" scenarios. > > If you think that NS rrsets are not that critical, they should be put in > the additional section, which causes exactly the processing you are > alluding to. RFC 2181 says The TC bit should not be set merely because some extra information could have been included, but there was insufficient room. This includes the results of additional section processing. "includes" != "is limited to" > I do not agree with that position, the authority section > carries valuable information. As Mark says: for the spreading of load by > gossiping about other nameservers. Valuable but not *necessary*. That's my point. I think avoiding unnecessary TCP retries is also a valuable goal, and not just because of incompetent firewall admins who block TCP/53. I understand it's a tradeoff, X amount of "cache enrichment" for the price of Y amount of unnecessary TCP retries, but it seems to me the tradeoff has already been decided by RFC 2181 and now the only questions are whether implementations are conformant and/or whether RFC 2181 should be amended. > > Note that for NSEC3, the client *cannot* requery for missing NSEC3 > records from the authority section. The latest nsec3 draft forbids > direct NSEC3 queries (in an attempt to de-complicate it). Pardon my DNSSEC ignorance, but if the client cared about the NS RRset, along with the associated signatures, etc. couldn't it just query NS directly? Wouldn't the response to that query carry with it the necessary elements for DNSSEC validation? - Kevin -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 30 22:22:59 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JKQ0x-0004PB-0B; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 22:22:59 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JKQ0u-0001du-Ol; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 22:22:58 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JKPto-000Cy5-JK for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 03:15:36 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [129.9.168.76] (helo=shvirpr4.extra.daimlerchrysler.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JKPtd-000Cwj-V2 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 03:15:27 +0000 Received: from shnavip4-hme0.shdc.chrysler.com (unknown [53.231.141.98]) by shvirpr4.extra.daimlerchrysler.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 3781C10FE2E for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 22:05:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from wokcdts1.is.chrysler.com ([53.230.98.85]) by shnavip4-hme0.shdc.chrysler.com (SMSSMTP 4.1.7.33) with SMTP id M2008013022151423469 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 22:15:14 -0500 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wokcdts1.is.chrysler.com (8.13.6/8.9.1) with ESMTP id m0V3FErG016268 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2008 22:15:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <47A13D42.6010408@chrysler.com> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 22:15:14 -0500 From: Kevin Darcy User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20070802) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Clarification Request (Truncation) References: <200801300931.m0U9VlNk040366@drugs.dv.isc.org> <29787.1201701154@epsilon.noi.kre.to> In-Reply-To: <29787.1201701154@epsilon.noi.kre.to> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Robert Elz wrote: > Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 20:31:47 +1100 > From: Mark Andrews > Message-ID: <200801300931.m0U9VlNk040366@drugs.dv.isc.org> > > | Or workout why there is a excessive number of NS records > | there and remove them. > > Yes, of course, but that's a different issue. That's just poor > configuration - but attempts to legislate against that are self-contradictory > so the best we can do is to make sure that things are handled sanely > when there is a poor config. > Actually, I wouldn't say "poor configuration". It's the *default* configuration of the particular DNS implementation in question to add an NS record at the apex of the zone for every "peer" server. We're up to 142 NS records at the apex of this particular zone. That's what gives rise to the TC bit being set, not the size of the SOA RR itself (as you theorized/hypothesized later in your message). It's more like "bad design" than "poor configuration". But I'm trying hard not to point fingers at specific implementations, since I'm attempting to raise a protocol-conformance issue, not just criticize particular implementations for their discretionary choices. - Kevin -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From bangkok--hotels.com@lindamosley.com Thu Jan 31 02:17:16 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JKTfg-0005RE-3a for dnsext-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 02:17:16 -0500 Received: from [59.26.59.128] (helo=xtfxpjk) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JKTff-0007gd-3a for dnsext-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 02:17:16 -0500 Message-ID: <000901c863d9$61355f80$0100007f@kjjwmg> From: "Jalen Nelson" To: Subject: Avoid enhancement pills Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 16:17:19 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0014_01C863D9.61355F80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2905 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 2.8 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 17cf8eab1d6bbd2874a56f9e3554d91d This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C863D9.61355F80 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001A_01C863D9.61355F80" ------=_NextPart_001_001A_01C863D9.61355F80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Info attached or here: http://www.edasora.net/ ----- No, Im not. Your skins silky a She clasped her hand over his She wished she could be that f That wasnt so bad, was it, mil ------=_NextPart_001_001A_01C863D9.61355F80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello

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------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C863D9.61355F80-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 31 03:11:36 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JKUWG-0000fG-5H; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 03:11:36 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JKUW7-0005Yq-0a; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 03:11:36 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JKULF-000CG7-Ft for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 08:00:13 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [202.28.99.196] (helo=jade.coe.psu.ac.th) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JKUL8-000CAc-5Z for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 08:00:12 +0000 Received: from epsilon.noi.kre.to (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jade.coe.psu.ac.th with ESMTP id m0V7vtqW000228; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:57:56 +0700 (ICT) Received: from epsilon.noi.kre.to (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by epsilon.noi.kre.to (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0V7wBB6007164; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:58:16 +0700 (ICT) From: Robert Elz To: Kevin Darcy cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Clarification Request (Truncation) In-Reply-To: <47A13D42.6010408@chrysler.com> References: <47A13D42.6010408@chrysler.com> <200801300931.m0U9VlNk040366@drugs.dv.isc.org> <29787.1201701154@epsilon.noi.kre.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:58:11 +0700 Message-ID: <6167.1201766291@epsilon.noi.kre.to> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d0bdc596f8dd1c226c458f0b4df27a88 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 22:15:14 -0500 From: Kevin Darcy Message-ID: <47A13D42.6010408@chrysler.com> | Actually, I wouldn't say "poor configuration". It's the *default* | configuration of the particular DNS implementation in question to add an | NS record at the apex of the zone for every "peer" server. That is OK, and even sounds correct, but ... | We're up to 142 NS records at the apex of this particular zone. That's insane. What benefit can anyone possibly achieve by having that many peer servers? You'd be better to use anycast, and have just one server name for a whole subset of those 142 - that way at least the routing system can help clients (resolvers) select a rational one of those servers to query. And yes, that is very poor configuration (not in the server adding the NS records, but in having that many peers in the first place - how frequently do you verify that they're all working correctly???) | That's what gives rise to the TC bit being set, Yes, it would - and you get the option of either setting TC, and forcing a retry (using TCP) for the SOA to be fetched, or of simply putting none of the NS records in the reply - the server faced with this absurd zone zone config has no other choice. | not the size of the SOA RR itself (as you | theorized/hypothesized later in your message). For that I was just suggesting that in some cases the NS list (of a sanely configured NS list) may be carefully chosen to fit in a UDP reply when an NS query (or referral) is performed, but just fail to fit in the presence of a larg(ish) answer section - like perhaps a SOA record - I was not intending any specific comment on your particular situation. | It's more like "bad design" than "poor configuration". You mean bad design that it is possible to have so many peers? How would you possibly prevent it? Or bad design that having the peers causes them to be listed in NS records (I suppose maybe). | But I'm trying | hard not to point fingers at specific implementations, No, nor was I (though perhaps at whoever decided so many peers was sane) - and .. | since I'm | attempting to raise a protocol-conformance issue, not just criticize | particular implementations for their discretionary choices. I agree, which is what I said last time (and you quoted from my previous message) ... > so the best we can do is to make sure that things are handled sanely > when there is a poor config. That is, the protocol has to cope with the stupid, no matter whose stupidity it is, and making sure that it does is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. kre -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 31 03:49:28 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JKV6u-0002Rn-JL; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 03:49:28 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JKV6u-000656-2x; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 03:49:28 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JKV0n-000FN4-VT for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 08:43:09 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,NO_RELAYS autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 Received: from [2001:7b8:206:1::1] (helo=open.nlnetlabs.nl) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JKV0k-000FMW-Ux for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 08:43:08 +0000 Received: from gary.nlnetlabs.nl (gary.nlnetlabs.nl [IPv6:2001:7b8:206:1:216:76ff:feb8:1853]) by open.nlnetlabs.nl (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0V8h0me090532; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 09:43:00 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from wouter@nlnetlabs.nl) Message-ID: <47A18A14.5060809@nlnetlabs.nl> Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 09:43:00 +0100 From: Wouter Wijngaards User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071115) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kevin Darcy CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Clarification Request (Truncation) References: <200801300332.m0U3WnSY062365@drugs.dv.isc.org> <479FF945.7060203@chrysler.com> <47A02563.2040007@nlnetlabs.nl> <47A13AC5.7030505@chrysler.com> In-Reply-To: <47A13AC5.7030505@chrysler.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (open.nlnetlabs.nl [IPv6:2001:7b8:206:1::1]); Thu, 31 Jan 2008 09:43:00 +0100 (CET) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Kevin Darcy wrote: | I agree that if the TC bit is clear there should be no partial RRsets in | the response. RFC 2181 states as much. OK, we agree | But should TC be set just because some helpful but not *necessary* | information _might_ have been put in the Authority Section, but was too | big to fit? Seems to me TC should be reserved for data that *must* go in | the response but *cannot*. Not for mere "would be nice" scenarios. I do not think it is merely 'would be nice', even though you can omit it from one single query, not for all of them, you miss the gossip quality and the load spreading goes amok. I do not think that one misconfigured zone (that works, sort of, with EDNS or TCP fallback) is a reason to change the protocol. | Pardon my DNSSEC ignorance, but if the client cared about the NS RRset, | along with the associated signatures, etc. couldn't it just query NS | directly? Wouldn't the response to that query carry with it the | necessary elements for DNSSEC validation? For the NS yes. For NSEC3 no. NSEC3 records are not 'would be nice', they are absolutely necessary in the authority section. Without them (or NSEC records) the answer is useless. 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To see my pics From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 31 12:27:24 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JKdC8-0002As-PK; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:27:24 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([2001:418:1::62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JKdC8-0002cM-Al; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:27:24 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JKd4i-000MRs-DB for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:19:44 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [64.102.122.149] (helo=rtp-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JKd4f-000MRR-It for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:19:42 +0000 Received: from rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com ([64.102.121.159]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 31 Jan 2008 12:19:41 -0500 Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-core-1.cisco.com [64.102.124.12]) by rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m0VHJe2X004451; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:19:40 -0500 Received: from xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-201.cisco.com [64.102.31.12]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id m0VHJR7G011832; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:19:40 GMT Received: from xfe-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.38]) by xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:19:32 -0500 Received: from rtp-townsley-vpn4.cisco.com ([10.83.1.101]) by xfe-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:19:31 -0500 Message-ID: <47A20320.8080901@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:19:28 +0100 From: Mark Townsley User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF DNSEXT WG CC: Jari Arkko Subject: Seeking nominations and volunteers for DNSEXT WG Co-Chair Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Jan 2008 17:19:31.0781 (UTC) FILETIME=[7155BF50:01C8642D] DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=894; t=1201799981; x=1202663981; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=townsley@cisco.com; z=From:=20Mark=20Townsley=20 |Subject:=20Seeking=20nominations=20and=20volunteers=20for= 20DNSEXT=20WG=20Co-Chair |Sender:=20 |To:=20IETF=20DNSEXT=20WG=20; bh=5qIZD/+NMPaSbPDtXkPSmqrVIcdao8fPcdYCeUtoOkE=; b=I6Emp7q8Ryvypm06cGEK5tXCyrtEpuzQfH56vu4TH7Tivnc3z9oQfXyzzI rXGul5qSso55fNK8ZcSSLSQZoQ/MXdq2oA5JCKJpgFb138xtiVgjQSR+wCLf IAN0xSe5sj; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-2; header.From=townsley@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim2001 verified; ); Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Namedroppers, Jari and I are seeking nominations (and volunteers, as self-nominations will be accepted) to fill the currently empty dnsext WG co-chair slot. The candidate we are looking for should have good knowledge of DNS protocols, a good understanding of IETF operations and procedures, as well as the willingness to lead the group in a fair manner while advising the area directors and IESG on its activity and direction. This job will of course require a time commitment, so understanding and support from competing time pressures on the individual will be considered as well. Please feel free to include reasons why you think the candidate would be good for dnsext and the IETF with your nomination. Please send nominations by email to Jari and I before Feb 21 (3 weeks from today). We intend to make a selection at or before IETF71. 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NyT4wdVxTVXlGQyyn+dTDWukxAX7zlD9E8yJYdyw1j2gMARcZDjFoCnCaRpXcxYeY9Y8ovOm07pA dxHfDkBc1xXlcG9qw0UQAJHxoLVX5Mdt2eMaji1QWo2lUEaIT2El0xnB02lQ91zkM2oq+MuyHOIF hEjJcOv+3mxF+pPP+wGxF+pPP+r/AP/Z ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C8643E.E99A1B80-- From JulioempressHanson@tuaw.com Thu Jan 31 14:32:06 2008 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JKf8o-0007Nf-HA; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:32:06 -0500 Received: from [89.130.20.63] (helo=paula) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JKf8n-0006nq-Sm; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:32:06 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Clayton Brewer" To: Cc: , =20
THE GOLD of Small = Caps=20 LITERALLY!!

Gold & Silver = company G&S=20 Minerals ( Symbol:GSML) is on Fire

People are loading up, If = you missed=20 the move in past 2 days and thg amazing 500% plus volume spike, Don't=20 Dispair.

GSML has a price target of = 3.88 by a=20 reputed analyst firm and a Tight Float to help

The the word markets = fearing economic=20 growth, Gold is bound to shine and The company with most to gain is an=20 UNDISCOVERED GEM such as GSML

Get in GSML and reap = the=20 profits

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 31 18:14:33 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8020F28C110; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:14:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LUvsJHOnPRNP; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:14:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A196A28C0D9; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:14:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JKlGz-00083E-2t for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 01 Feb 2008 02:04:57 +0000 Received: from [129.9.168.76] (helo=shvirpr4.extra.daimlerchrysler.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JKlGw-00082r-MC for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 01 Feb 2008 02:04:55 +0000 Received: from shnavip4-hme0.shdc.chrysler.com (unknown [53.231.141.98]) by shvirpr4.extra.daimlerchrysler.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A77FA10FBDF for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 20:55:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from wokcdts1.is.chrysler.com ([53.230.98.85]) by shnavip4-hme0.shdc.chrysler.com (SMSSMTP 4.1.7.33) with SMTP id M2008013121045305321 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 21:04:53 -0500 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wokcdts1.is.chrysler.com (8.13.6/8.9.1) with ESMTP id m1124rmP018136 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 21:04:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <47A27E45.9060001@chrysler.com> Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 21:04:53 -0500 From: Kevin Darcy User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20070802) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Clarification Request (Truncation) References: <47A13D42.6010408@chrysler.com> <200801300931.m0U9VlNk040366@drugs.dv.isc.org> <29787.1201701154@epsilon.noi.kre.to> <6167.1201766291@epsilon.noi.kre.to> In-Reply-To: <6167.1201766291@epsilon.noi.kre.to> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion Robert Elz wrote: > Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 22:15:14 -0500 > From: Kevin Darcy > Message-ID: <47A13D42.6010408@chrysler.com> > > | Actually, I wouldn't say "poor configuration". It's the *default* > | configuration of the particular DNS implementation in question to add an > | NS record at the apex of the zone for every "peer" server. > > That is OK, and even sounds correct, but ... > > | We're up to 142 NS records at the apex of this particular zone. > > That's insane. What benefit can anyone possibly achieve by having > that many peer servers? You'd be better to use anycast, and have just > one server name for a whole subset of those 142 - that way at least the > routing system can help clients (resolvers) select a rational one of > those servers to query. > > And yes, that is very poor configuration (not in the server adding the > NS records, but in having that many peers in the first place - how frequently > do you verify that they're all working correctly???) > OK, time to name names. It's Microsoft DNS and an "Active Directory Integrated" zone. By default, every Domain Controller gets an NS added to the apex of the zone. Not the design choice I'd make, but I didn't get a say in the matter. Apparently there _is_ a way within the software to control what NS records are added to the apex, but I'm no Microsoft expert and it is non-obvious enough that our resident admins haven't been able to figure it out yet. Which suggests that large numbers of NS records at the apex may be a *common* situation for anyone using AD-integrated DNS zones. This is why I think it's important to clarify how authoritative nameservers -- who may be slaving those zones -- should handle their inability to fit all of the NS records for such zones into their responses' Authority Sections. For the record, the primary master (the Microsoft DNS server) answers SOA queries for the zone with an empty Authority Section and TC clear. But another DNS implementation sets TC under the same circumstances, which has, in our particular environment, led to other problems. - Kevin -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From DawndiffusionGore@restassuredinc.com Thu Jan 31 18:44:32 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 837A328C161; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:44:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Spam-Score: 23.346 X-Spam-Level: *********************** X-Spam-Status: Yes, score=23.346 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DATE_IN_PAST_06_12=1.069, DOS_OE_TO_MX=2.75, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK=3.116, INVALID_MSGID=1.9, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_MLH_Stock1=0.87, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] X-Spam-Report: * 3.5 BAYES_99 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 99 to 100% * [score: 1.0000] * 0.8 FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D Host starts with d-d-d-d * 0.9 SARE_MLH_Stock1 Subject mentions stock or stock related words * 0.0 STOX_REPLY_TYPE STOX_REPLY_TYPE * 1.1 DATE_IN_PAST_06_12 Date: is 6 to 12 hours before Received: date * 0.5 RAZOR2_CHECK Listed in Razor2 (http://razor.sf.net/) * 1.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100 Razor2 gives engine 4 confidence level * above 50% * [cf: 100] * 0.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100 Razor2 gives confidence level above 50% * [cf: 100] * 0.9 RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL RBL: SORBS: sent directly from dynamic IP address * [68.83.177.212 listed in dnsbl.sorbs.net] * 2.0 RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET RBL: Received via a relay in bl.spamcop.net * [Blocked - see ] * 0.9 RCVD_IN_PBL RBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus PBL * [68.83.177.212 listed in zen.spamhaus.org] * 3.0 RCVD_IN_XBL RBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus XBL * 1.9 INVALID_MSGID Message-Id is not valid, according to RFC 2822 * 0.1 RDNS_DYNAMIC Delivered to trusted network by host with * dynamic-looking rDNS * 3.1 FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK Forged mail pretending to be from MS Outlook * 2.8 DOS_OE_TO_MX Delivered direct to MX with OE headers Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r7cWN1joJYdq; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:44:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from owner0258c8ae8.wag325n (unknown [89.211.117.73]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 4401628C129; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:44:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: b16001c8647c$8df0ccf0$6401a8c0@owner0258c8ae8 From: "Tiffany Cordova" To: Subject: ***SPAM*** 23.346 (5) Aggressive investors alert Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 02:45:30 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 No Looking back on G&S minerals Symbol-GSML Up 4 consecutive days for over 40% in profits and record volume Read the PR, the good news keeps coming. 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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 31 18:49:37 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F9983A67A1; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:49:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dXpeovAPm5xV; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:49:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A55973A6785; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:49:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JKltG-000CIN-2C for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 01 Feb 2008 02:44:30 +0000 Received: from [208.218.130.13] (helo=gis.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JKltC-000CHl-Ov for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 01 Feb 2008 02:44:28 +0000 Received: from [10.10.10.100] ([63.209.227.203]) by mx05.gis.net; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 21:43:40 -0500 Message-ID: <47A2875C.4050801@gis.net> Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 21:43:40 -0500 From: Danny Mayer Reply-To: mayer@gis.net User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Elz CC: Kevin Darcy , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Clarification Request (Truncation) References: <47A13D42.6010408@chrysler.com> <200801300931.m0U9VlNk040366@drugs.dv.isc.org> <29787.1201701154@epsilon.noi.kre.to> <6167.1201766291@epsilon.noi.kre.to> In-Reply-To: <6167.1201766291@epsilon.noi.kre.to> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion Robert Elz wrote: > Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 22:15:14 -0500 > From: Kevin Darcy > Message-ID: <47A13D42.6010408@chrysler.com> > > | Actually, I wouldn't say "poor configuration". It's the *default* > | configuration of the particular DNS implementation in question to add an > | NS record at the apex of the zone for every "peer" server. > > That is OK, and even sounds correct, but ... > > | We're up to 142 NS records at the apex of this particular zone. > > That's insane. What benefit can anyone possibly achieve by having > that many peer servers? You'd be better to use anycast, and have just > one server name for a whole subset of those 142 - that way at least the > routing system can help clients (resolvers) select a rational one of > those servers to query. > > And yes, that is very poor configuration (not in the server adding the > NS records, but in having that many peers in the first place - how frequently > do you verify that they're all working correctly???) > > | That's what gives rise to the TC bit being set, > > Yes, it would - and you get the option of either setting TC, and forcing > a retry (using TCP) for the SOA to be fetched, or of simply putting none > of the NS records in the reply - the server faced with this absurd zone > zone config has no other choice. > > | not the size of the SOA RR itself (as you > | theorized/hypothesized later in your message). > > For that I was just suggesting that in some cases the NS list (of a > sanely configured NS list) may be carefully chosen to fit in a UDP > reply when an NS query (or referral) is performed, but just fail to fit > in the presence of a larg(ish) answer section - like perhaps a SOA > record - I was not intending any specific comment on your particular > situation. > > | It's more like "bad design" than "poor configuration". > > You mean bad design that it is possible to have so many peers? How would > you possibly prevent it? Or bad design that having the peers causes them > to be listed in NS records (I suppose maybe). > > | But I'm trying > | hard not to point fingers at specific implementations, > > No, nor was I (though perhaps at whoever decided so many peers was > sane) - and .. > > | since I'm > | attempting to raise a protocol-conformance issue, not just criticize > | particular implementations for their discretionary choices. > > I agree, which is what I said last time (and you quoted from my previous > message) ... > >> so the best we can do is to make sure that things are handled sanely >> when there is a poor config. > > That is, the protocol has to cope with the stupid, no matter whose > stupidity it is, and making sure that it does is a perfectly reasonable > thing to do. > > kre There are many solutions to improving the design of the architected or mis-architected configuration, but the protocol needs to work for all situations including this one. So setting the TC bit is the correct answer. If DNS performance is poor as a result, that a matter of fixing the configuration rather than messing with the protocol. Danny -- to unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. archive: From AnnettetooFritz@plusmo.com Thu Jan 31 19:09:26 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0723F28C0D7; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:09:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Spam-Score: 25.209 X-Spam-Level: ************************* X-Spam-Status: Yes, score=25.209 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DATE_IN_PAST_12_24=0.992, DOS_OE_TO_MX=2.75, FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK=3.116, HELO_LH_HOME=3.714, HOST_EQ_DIALUP=0.862, HTML_MESSAGE=1, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033] X-Spam-Report: * 3.5 BAYES_99 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 99 to 100% * [score: 1.0000] * 3.7 HELO_LH_HOME HELO_LH_HOME * 0.9 HOST_EQ_DIALUP HOST_EQ_DIALUP * 1.0 DATE_IN_PAST_12_24 Date: is 12 to 24 hours before Received: date * 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message * 0.5 RAZOR2_CHECK Listed in Razor2 (http://razor.sf.net/) * 1.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100 Razor2 gives engine 4 confidence level * above 50% * [cf: 100] * 0.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100 Razor2 gives confidence level above 50% * [cf: 100] * 0.9 RCVD_IN_PBL RBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus PBL * [64.56.229.21 listed in zen.spamhaus.org] * 3.0 RCVD_IN_XBL RBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus XBL * 2.0 RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET RBL: Received via a relay in bl.spamcop.net * [Blocked - see ] * 0.9 RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL RBL: SORBS: sent directly from dynamic IP address * [64.56.229.21 listed in dnsbl.sorbs.net] * 3.1 FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK Forged mail pretending to be from MS Outlook * 2.8 DOS_OE_TO_MX Delivered direct to MX with OE headers Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uw1M3oADR7tx; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:09:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from citra18dc694ff.lan (ppp-RAS1-6-21.dialup.eol.ca [64.56.229.21]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id BD8A43A6782; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:09:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1409301c86499$2692fc00$4001a8c0@citra18dc694ff> From: "Dolores Fontenot" To: Cc: , " =20
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------=_NextPart_000_1408F_01C86499.2692FC00-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 31 19:24:27 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4504728C0DA; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:24:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.953 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.953 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.646, BAYES_00=-2.599, MISSING_HEADERS=1.292, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9hrIVKAlvxE3; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:24:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E98628C0D7; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:24:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JKmQT-000FpG-DU for namedroppers-data@psg.com; Fri, 01 Feb 2008 03:18:49 +0000 Received: from [129.9.40.82] (helo=odvirpr6.extra.daimlerchrysler.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JKmQQ-000Fos-Kr for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 01 Feb 2008 03:18:48 +0000 Received: from odnavip4-hme0.oddc.chrysler.com (unknown [53.231.99.241]) by odvirpr6.extra.daimlerchrysler.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 6176F161FEA for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 22:18:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from wokcdts1.is.chrysler.com ([53.230.98.85]) by odnavip4-hme0.oddc.chrysler.com (SMSSMTP 4.1.7.33) with SMTP id M2008013122184413128 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 22:18:44 -0500 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wokcdts1.is.chrysler.com (8.13.6/8.9.1) with ESMTP id m113IjCR018213 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2008 22:18:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <47A28F95.3020706@chrysler.com> Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 22:18:45 -0500 From: Kevin Darcy User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20070802) MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Clarification Request (Truncation) References: <47A13D42.6010408@chrysler.com> <200801300931.m0U9VlNk040366@drugs.dv.isc.org> <29787.1201701154@epsilon.noi.kre.to> <6167.1201766291@epsilon.noi.kre.to> <47A2875C.4050801@gis.net> In-Reply-To: <47A2875C.4050801@gis.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-id: DNSEXT discussion Danny Mayer wrote: > Robert Elz wrote: >> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 22:15:14 -0500 >> From: Kevin Darcy >> Message-ID: <47A13D42.6010408@chrysler.com> >> >> | Actually, I wouldn't say "poor configuration". It's the *default* >> | configuration of the particular DNS implementation in question to >> add an | NS record at the apex of the zone for every "peer" server. >> >> That is OK, and even sounds correct, but ... >> >> | We're up to 142 NS records at the apex of this particular zone. >> >> That's insane. What benefit can anyone possibly achieve by having >> that many peer servers? You'd be better to use anycast, and have just >> one server name for a whole subset of those 142 - that way at least the >> routing system can help clients (resolvers) select a rational one of >> those servers to query. >> >> And yes, that is very poor configuration (not in the server adding the >> NS records, but in having that many peers in the first place - how >> frequently >> do you verify that they're all working correctly???) >> >> | That's what gives rise to the TC bit being set, >> >> Yes, it would - and you get the option of either setting TC, and forcing >> a retry (using TCP) for the SOA to be fetched, or of simply putting none >> of the NS records in the reply - the server faced with this absurd zone >> zone config has no other choice. >> >> | not the size of the SOA RR itself (as you | >> theorized/hypothesized later in your message). >> >> For that I was just suggesting that in some cases the NS list (of a >> sanely configured NS list) may be carefully chosen to fit in a UDP >> reply when an NS query (or referral) is performed, but just fail to fit >> in the presence of a larg(ish) answer section - like perhaps a SOA >> record - I was not intending any specific comment on your particular >> situation. >> >> | It's more like "bad design" than "poor configuration". >> >> You mean bad design that it is possible to have so many peers? How >> would >> you possibly prevent it? Or bad design that having the peers causes >> them >> to be listed in NS records (I suppose maybe). >> >> | But I'm trying | hard not to point fingers at specific >> implementations, >> >> No, nor was I (though perhaps at whoever decided so many peers was >> sane) - and .. >> >> | since I'm | attempting to raise a protocol-conformance issue, >> not just criticize | particular implementations for their >> discretionary choices. >> >> I agree, which is what I said last time (and you quoted from my previous >> message) ... >> >>> so the best we can do is to make sure that things are handled sanely >>> when there is a poor config. >> >> That is, the protocol has to cope with the stupid, no matter whose >> stupidity it is, and making sure that it does is a perfectly reasonable >> thing to do. >> >> kre > > There are many solutions to improving the design of the architected or > mis-architected configuration, but the protocol needs to work for all > situations including this one. So setting the TC bit is the correct > answer. Non sequitur. The protocol "works" whether TC is clear or not: if it's clear, the client takes the answer as it finds it and queries the "missing" NS records as necessary; if TC is set, then the client (typically) will retry the query using TCP, thus obtaining the answer and all of the NS records that wouldn't fit in the initial response. The main question is whether an implementation which sets TC under these circumstances conforms to RFC 2181. 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