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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Tue Dec 1 11:23:04 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A65603A689B for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2009 11:23:04 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Reseller ; Tue, 1 Dec 2009 11:22:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from HSI-KBW-078-042-232-103.hsi3.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de (HSI-KBW-078-042-232-103.hsi3.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de [78.42.232.103]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 106943A6A47 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2009 11:22:13 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Reseller To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Dear dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org receive 80% OFF on Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091201192214.106943A6A47@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 11:22:13 -0800 (PST) Pfizer ® Newsletter
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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Wed Dec 2 09:03:37 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16F6A3A67A5 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 2009 09:03:37 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Reseller ; Wed, 2 Dec 2009 09:03:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from chello089072225233.chello.pl (chello089072225233.chello.pl [89.72.225.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBBF13A68D6 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 2009 09:03:30 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Reseller To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Dear dnsext-archive@ietf.org receive 80% OFF on Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091202170330.BBBF13A68D6@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 09:03:30 -0800 (PST) Pfizer ® Newsletter
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Wed Dec 2 09:03:48 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C9863A68D6 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 2009 09:03:48 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Reseller ; Wed, 2 Dec 2009 09:03:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from chello089072225233.chello.pl (chello089072225233.chello.pl [89.72.225.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 466543A67A5 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 2009 09:03:44 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Reseller To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Dear dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org receive 80% OFF on Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091202170344.466543A67A5@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 09:03:44 -0800 (PST) Pfizer ® Newsletter
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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Wed Dec 2 09:18:45 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34C693A6856 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 2009 09:18:45 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Online Shop ; Wed, 2 Dec 2009 09:18:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from bzq-79-180-89-252.red.bezeqint.net (bzq-79-180-89-252.red.bezeqint.net [79.180.89.252]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E5633A67A5 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 2009 09:18:37 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Online Shop To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Valued customer dnsext-archive@ietf.org 80% OFF on Pfizer. Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20091202171837.8E5633A67A5@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 09:18:37 -0800 (PST) Newsletter
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Wed Dec 2 09:19:05 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 565EF3A67B6 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 2009 09:19:05 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: <5MNr-bkOPX0z> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Online Shop ; Wed, 2 Dec 2009 09:18:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from bzq-79-180-89-252.red.bezeqint.net (bzq-79-180-89-252.red.bezeqint.net [79.180.89.252]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D3923A6856 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 2009 09:18:58 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Online Shop To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Valued customer dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org 80% OFF on Pfizer. Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20091202171859.0D3923A6856@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 09:18:58 -0800 (PST) Newsletter
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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Wed Dec 2 10:13:56 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77ECA3A693D for ; Wed, 2 Dec 2009 10:13:52 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: Pfizer \256 Customer Servi[...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -59.815 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-59.815 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, NUMERIC_HTTP_ADDR=0.001, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UouMYPH0YEnU for ; Wed, 2 Dec 2009 10:13:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from 189-72-99-3.bnut3702.e.brasiltelecom.net.br (189-72-99-3.bnut3702.e.brasiltelecom.net.br [189.72.99.3]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6FE13A6927 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 2009 10:13:39 -0800 (PST) From: Pfizer ® Customer Service To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Special offer dnsext-archive@ietf.org receive 70% OFF on Pfizer. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091202181339.B6FE13A6927@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 10:13:39 -0800 (PST) Pfizer ® 80% OFF
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Wed Dec 2 10:14:02 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 328303A6945 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 2009 10:14:02 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: Pfizer \256 Customer Servi[...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -69.816 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-69.816 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YSUMH0VKKDUO for ; Wed, 2 Dec 2009 10:13:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from 189-72-99-3.bnut3702.e.brasiltelecom.net.br (189-72-99-3.bnut3702.e.brasiltelecom.net.br [189.72.99.3]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 393233A6939 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 2009 10:13:49 -0800 (PST) From: Pfizer ® Customer Service To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Special offer dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org receive 70% OFF on Pfizer. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091202181350.393233A6939@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 10:13:49 -0800 (PST) Pfizer ® 80% OFF
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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Wed Dec 2 14:58:29 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D8983A679C for ; Wed, 2 Dec 2009 14:58:29 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From:VIAGRA \256 Pfizer Inc.; Wed, 2 Dec 2009 14:58:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from host208-32-dynamic.12-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it (host208-32-dynamic.12-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it [79.12.32.208]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 39FF73A684C for ; Wed, 2 Dec 2009 14:58:21 -0800 (PST) From:VIAGRA ® Pfizer Inc. To:dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject:Dear dnsext-archive@ietf.org 78% OFF on Pfizer. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091202225822.39FF73A684C@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 14:58:21 -0800 (PST) Dear dnsext-archive@ietf.org
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Thu Dec 3 13:32:50 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4ED728C1D7 for ; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 13:32:50 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Online Shop ; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 13:32:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from 189.26.167.118.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br (189.26.167.118.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br [189.26.167.118]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67FA128C1DA for ; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 13:32:43 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Online Shop To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Valued customer dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org 80% OFF on Pfizer. Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20091203213243.67FA128C1DA@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 13:32:43 -0800 (PST) Newsletter
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Dec 3 13:40:25 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF97D28C1E1; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 13:40:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.048 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.048 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WY5udqYFRpEl; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 13:40:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29F4328C1E8; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 13:40:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGJGy-0002BT-Rq for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 03 Dec 2009 21:31:36 +0000 Received: from [192.150.186.11] (helo=fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGJGy-0002B8-6l for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Dec 2009 21:31:36 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (jack.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU [192.150.186.73]) by fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.11.20060614/8.12.11) with ESMTP id nB3LVZEq000472; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 13:31:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [dnsext] Question on EDNS MTU... Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Nicholas Weaver Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 13:31:35 -0800 Cc: Nicholas Weaver To: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org WG" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Does anyone know of DNS resolver software other than Google's new = recursive resolver service that uses a 1280B EDNS MTU? From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Dec 3 13:55:48 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82A023A6976; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 13:55:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.554 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.554 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.045, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gx9vzapqMC0o; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 13:55:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D01E83A6829; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 13:55:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGJY1-0003nO-Ik for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 03 Dec 2009 21:49:13 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGJY0-0003n5-MZ for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Dec 2009 21:49:13 +0000 Received: from stora.ogud.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nB3LnA9K018689 for ; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 16:49:10 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers@stora.ogud.com) Received: (from namedroppers@localhost) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id nB3LnAGD018688 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 16:49:10 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers) Received: from [128.33.1.81] (helo=smtp.bbn.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGFvg-0006nX-9S for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Dec 2009 17:57:24 +0000 Received: from dommiel.bbn.com ([192.1.122.15] helo=[172.28.167.12]) by smtp.bbn.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1NGFve-0005pu-Aj; Thu, 03 Dec 2009 12:57:22 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 12:57:19 -0500 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Stephen Kent Subject: [dnsext] GOST algorithms in DNSSEC Cc: Stephen Kent Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: [ Moderators note: Post was moderated, either because it was posted by a non-subscriber, or because it was over 20K. With the massive amount of spam, it is easy to miss and therefore delete relevant posts by non-subscribers. Please fix your subscription addresses. ] Folks, I am opposed to assigning algorithm identifier values to the GOST algorithms, until the WG has solved the alg ID space problem. I believe Paul Hoffman suggested this in Hiroshima. My reasoning is that we need to provide a clear distinction between: - algorithms that are MUSTs, i.e., mandatory to implement in all DNS resolvers and zone signers - algorithms that are MAYs Because we have limited space for algorithm IDs under the current design, I think it appropriate to agree upon a scheme that enables expansion of the ID space first, and then to assign IDs for these these two categories of algorithms. One might choose to assign the two classes of algorithms to two different ID spaces, to reinforce this notion, although that may not be necessary. If alg ID space were not in short supply, this would not be an issue. In other security protocol contexts with which I am familiar, we have usually avoided this thorny issue. This is because we have adopted alg ID schemes that have offer very large (essentially unlimited) space, e.g., OIDs. Unfortunately, this is not the case for DNSSEC, and thus I believe that it is prudent to proceed with caution. Steve From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Dec 3 13:55:49 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AC843A6976; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 13:55:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.873 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.873 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R8B0lKnqGFan; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 13:55:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 617643A6970; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 13:55:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGJYJ-0003p8-5d for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 03 Dec 2009 21:49:31 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGJYI-0003oc-Bn for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Dec 2009 21:49:30 +0000 Received: from stora.ogud.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nB3LnSB3018700 for ; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 16:49:28 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers@stora.ogud.com) Received: (from namedroppers@localhost) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id nB3LnSx3018699 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 16:49:28 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers) Received: from [216.239.33.17] (helo=smtp-out.google.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGFx4-0006wA-Sz for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Dec 2009 17:58:53 +0000 Received: from spaceape14.eur.corp.google.com (spaceape14.eur.corp.google.com [172.28.16.148]) by smtp-out.google.com with ESMTP id nB3HwlDZ010753 for ; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 17:58:48 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=beta; t=1259863129; bh=lEjKHANsFTMe1Q8OF9Sd6roa1Mg=; h=MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:References:Date:Message-ID:Subject:From: To:Cc:Content-Type; b=IqQ88h4tMqkbTjrDbuRGLwAdiYaWmYv89OoQjLQvAaIg7HnDuZTPCl2mhHrK0y14Q O13ZsMT9BpXoOu/AqeRlg== DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=beta; d=google.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to: cc:content-type:x-system-of-record; b=FdYKnox+lJmQ/LnGtnDpt6ucsw7vjK0Cbiiy0cuavRdJEILUwe5cGNNlQ4hJDKOMR 1u5t5gxXO2Pp+gTsJdCSA== Received: from pwi3 (pwi3.prod.google.com [10.241.219.3]) by spaceape14.eur.corp.google.com with ESMTP id nB3HwjUH025057 for ; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 09:58:45 -0800 Received: by pwi3 with SMTP id 3so1411103pwi.1 for ; Thu, 03 Dec 2009 09:58:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.5.25 with SMTP id 25mr227822wfe.80.1259863124541; Thu, 03 Dec 2009 09:58:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 09:58:44 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: [dnsext] Re: Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME From: Erik van der Poel To: Vaggelis Segredakis Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, Andrew Sullivan , Olafur Gudmundsson , Vint Cerf , Sotiris Panaretou , idna-update@alvestrand.no Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-System-Of-Record: true X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: [ Moderators note: Post was moderated, either because it was posted by a non-subscriber, or because it was over 20K. With the massive amount of spam, it is easy to miss and therefore delete relevant posts by non-subscribers. Please fix your subscription addresses. ] Vaggelis, thank you for raising this issue on the namedroppers list. Namedroppers, I would like to clarify one item below. On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 7:56 AM, Vaggelis Segredakis wrote: > Recently, as a member of the discussion of the IDNABIS WG I tried to help > resolving these issues by explaining them to that group. However that group > is not free to completely re-design the IDNA protocol to something else but > rather with small steps to reform it to something with fewer issues. > Unfortunately, on this process, one of the changes that are implemented lead > to even more names that have to be bundled together for each registrant. > This makes it even more significant to break this chain of cost for the end > user. The IDNAbis WG drafts have not been published as RFCs yet. Currently, the drafts make Final Sigma (Unicode U+03C2) PVALID, but this issue is currently being discussed in the WG. Erik From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Dec 3 13:55:55 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B9303A6829; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 13:55:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.184 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.184 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.185, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y0vmfyEQFiRt; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 13:55:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BDC13A6947; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 13:55:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGJYg-0003rW-3L for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 03 Dec 2009 21:49:54 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGJYb-0003r6-Kb for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Dec 2009 21:49:50 +0000 Received: from stora.ogud.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nB3LnkJJ018706 for ; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 16:49:46 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers@stora.ogud.com) Received: (from namedroppers@localhost) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id nB3Lnkhg018705 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 16:49:46 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers) Received: from [139.91.1.2] (helo=mailgate.ics.forth.gr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGE36-000JsP-0W for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Dec 2009 15:56:56 +0000 X-DNSBL-MILTER: Passed Received: from webmail.ics.forth.gr (sphinx.ics.forth.gr [139.91.1.4]) by mailgate.ics.forth.gr (8.14.3/ICS-FORTH/V10-1.5-GATE) with ESMTP id nB3FuOb0018301; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 17:56:24 +0200 (EET) Received: from Thanatosnew ([139.91.88.160]) (authenticated bits=0) by webmail.ics.forth.gr (8.12.9//ICS-FORTH/V10.1.0C-EXTNULL-PLUS-SASL) with ESMTP id nB3FuEqt017424; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 17:56:18 +0200 (EET) From: "Vaggelis Segredakis" To: , "'Andrew Sullivan'" , "'Olafur Gudmundsson'" Cc: , "'Sotiris Panaretou'" , "'Vint Cerf'" Subject: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 17:56:14 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01B2_01CA7441.E889ED50" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Thread-Index: Acp0MSQovYlbgv5uSXSMfwGmM1GuaA== X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 4B17DFA8.000 on mailgate : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-ICS-JCHK-SCL: Ham X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: [ Moderators note: Post was moderated, either because it was posted by a non-subscriber, or because it was over 20K. With the massive amount of spam, it is easy to miss and therefore delete relevant posts by non-subscribers. Please fix your subscription addresses. ] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01B2_01CA7441.E889ED50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Members of the DNSEXT WG, My name is Vaggelis Segredakis and I am the Administrator of the Registry of the .gr ccTLD. Since 2005 the .gr registry has provided our registrants with the option to register domain names in Greek characters, according to the IDNA2003 translation of IDN characters to Latin characters. Due to the design of this protocol, it has been necessary for the registry to bundle domain names that in Greek represent the same word but in the IDNA2003 the representation is different PUNYCODE domain names. To reduce the cost of the use of these domain names, the registry bundles them (with the use of DNAME) in the .gr zone file. We strongly believe that the IDNA protocol should help to ease the use of the domain names and not to present new obstacles to the end users who should not be blamed if the domain name was typed in small or capital letters. I do not wish to burden you with details but if you wish a more elaborate analysis of the issues presented in the IDNA protocols for domain names in Greek characters please refer to my presentations: -http://www.icann.org/en/meetings/lisbon/presentation-idns-greece-27mar07.pd f -https://www.centr.org/main/5354-CTR/version/default/part/AttachmentData/dat a/IGF2009%20-%20Segredakis%20IDNA2008%20a%20Protocol%20with%20shortcomings.p df Bundling these domain names with DNAME seemed like a good choice but there is an issue that this way of bundling does not solve: If you have the domain name xn-1234.gr and you bundle it with xn-5678.gr everything is fine - if you try to visit www.xn--5678.gr; you will be redirected to www.xn--1234.gr. The same applies if you use ns1.xn-1234.gr; it equals to ns1.xn-5678.gr. However, if you try to email user1@xn--5678.gr it will never arrive at user1@xn--1234.gr because this bundling starts from the next level and thus xn-1234.gr<>xn-5678.gr. The source of the problem I am going to ask you to resolve is there. Recently, as a member of the discussion of the IDNABIS WG I tried to help resolving these issues by explaining them to that group. However that group is not free to completely re-design the IDNA protocol to something else but rather with small steps to reform it to something with fewer issues. Unfortunately, on this process, one of the changes that are implemented lead to even more names that have to be bundled together for each registrant. This makes it even more significant to break this chain of cost for the end user. I ask you as a WG to either consider changing DNAME to include the first layer and this way allow emails to be sent to user1@xn--5678.gr and to be delivered to user1@xn--1234.gr or to present in DNS a new command that works like DNAME with the upper layer included, let's call it xNAME for now. By presenting this xNAME you will allow the registries to bundle domain names in a consistent way that has full functionality for the end user who will be able to receive emails, view web pages, FTP e.t.c. using domain names in his language without having to adapt a new protocol. This should be an undisputable right for all the users who do not use the Latin alphabet, the same as it is for Latin alphabet users. I will be happy to answer any questions you might have on my request. I would be even happier if this revision of the DNS was to be presented along with IDNA2008 adoption from the IETF so that the registries that really need this bundling are ready to use these new protocols simultaneously for the benefit of the end users. Kind Regards, Vaggelis Segredakis Administrator of the .GR Top Level Domain Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas Tel. +30-281-0391450 Fax +30-281-0391451 Email segred@ics.forth.gr ------=_NextPart_000_01B2_01CA7441.E889ED50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear Members of the DNSEXT = WG,

 

My name is Vaggelis Segredakis and I am the Administrator of the Registry of the .gr = ccTLD.

 

Since 2005 the .gr registry has provided our registrants with the option to register domain names in Greek = characters, according to the IDNA2003 translation of IDN characters to Latin = characters. Due to the design of this protocol, it has been necessary for the registry = to bundle domain names that in Greek represent the same word but in the = IDNA2003 the representation is different PUNYCODE domain names. To reduce the cost of = the use of these domain names, the registry bundles them (with the use of = DNAME) in the .gr zone file. We strongly believe that the IDNA protocol should = help to ease the use of the domain names and not to present new obstacles to the = end users who should not be blamed if the domain name was typed in small or = capital letters. I do not wish to burden you with details but if you wish a more elaborate analysis of the issues presented in the IDNA protocols for = domain names in Greek characters please refer to my = presentations:

 

-http://www.icann.org/en/meetings/lisbon/presen= tation-idns-greece-27mar07.pdf

-https://www.centr.org/main/5354-CTR/version/de= fault/part/AttachmentData/data/IGF2009%20-%20Segredakis%20IDNA2008%20a%20= Protocol%20with%20shortcomings.pdf

 

Bundling these domain names with DNAME seemed = like a good choice but there is an issue that this way of bundling does not = solve:

 

If you have the domain name xn—1234.gr = and you bundle it with xn—5678.gr everything is fine - if you try to visit = www.xn--5678.gr; you will be redirected to www.xn--1234.gr. The same applies if you use = ns1.xn—1234.gr; it equals to ns1.xn—5678.gr. However, if you try to email = user1@xn--5678.gr it will never arrive at user1@xn--1234.gr because this bundling starts = from the next level and thus xn—1234.gr<>xn—5678.gr. The source = of the problem I am going to ask you to resolve is = there…

 

Recently, as a member of the discussion of the = IDNABIS WG I tried to help resolving these issues by explaining them to that = group. However that group is not free to completely re-design the IDNA protocol to = something else but rather with small steps to reform it to something with fewer = issues. Unfortunately, on this process, one of the changes that are implemented lead to even = more names that have to be bundled together for each registrant. This makes = it even more significant to break this chain of cost for the end = user.

 

 I ask you as a WG to either consider = changing DNAME to include the first layer and this way allow emails to be sent to = user1@xn--5678.gr and to be delivered to user1@xn--1234.gr or to present in DNS a new = command that works like DNAME with the upper layer included, let’s call it = xNAME for now. By presenting this xNAME you will allow the registries to = bundle domain names in a consistent way that has full functionality for the end = user who will be able to receive emails, view web pages, FTP e.t.c. using = domain names in his language without having to adapt a new protocol. This = should be an undisputable right for all the users who do not use the Latin alphabet, = the same as it is for Latin alphabet users.

 

I will be happy to answer any questions you = might have on my request. I would be even happier if this revision of the DNS = was to be presented along with IDNA2008 adoption from the IETF so that the = registries that really need this bundling are ready to use these new protocols simultaneously for the benefit of the end = users.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Vaggelis Segredakis

Administrator of the .GR Top Level = Domain

Institute of Computer = Science

Foundation for Research and Technology - = Hellas

Tel. +30-281-0391450

Fax +30-281-0391451

Email segred@ics.forth.gr

 

------=_NextPart_000_01B2_01CA7441.E889ED50-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Dec 3 14:28:39 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 518993A6809; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 14:28:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.948 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.948 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.650, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_UK=1.749, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gULpWf7gHuY4; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 14:28:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FC5C3A6A86; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 14:28:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGK60-0007OC-GN for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 03 Dec 2009 22:24:20 +0000 Received: from [213.248.199.24] (helo=mx4.nominet.org.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGK5y-0007No-HN for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Dec 2009 22:24:18 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: s=main.dk.nominet.selector; d=nominet.org.uk; c=nofws; q=dns; h=X-IronPort-AV:Received:In-Reply-To:References:To:Cc: Subject:MIME-Version:X-Mailer:Message-ID:From:Date: X-MIMETrack:Content-Type; b=mZMld9w7RYdDhEk2bub4UJUS1E5QZY0kDqeWjS7Of0fp0QtAfEmV9S3g xOgVPgRdKY1terYGUXpBiIYZh5g27bJxBU+RvaG8C1J8l7cZhZegLbf/8 2txJhfB6uaV8dQr; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nominet.org.uk; i=Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk; q=dns/txt; s=main.dkim.nominet.selector; t=1259879058; x=1291415058; h=from:sender:reply-to:subject:date:message-id:to:cc: mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-id: content-description:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender: resent-to:resent-cc:resent-message-id:in-reply-to: references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:list-owner:list-archive; z=From:=20Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk|Subject:=20Re:=20[dnse xt]=20Question=20on=20EDNS=20MTU...|Date:=20Thu,=203=20De c=202009=2022:24:15=20+0000|Message-ID:=20|To:=20Nicholas=20Weaver=20 |Cc:=20"namedroppers@ops.ietf.org=20WG"=20|MIME-Version:=201.0|In-Reply-To:=20 |References:=20; bh=lJovFZ8vnOAAx4klbrSzJJGAqA3P4echUi7XIN5nO04=; b=otD4nLjJ3xpWq/6aMMCsv/JEne4QUtywiXp6EXfIm/sUcApWiWl4OAY0 hwFOSi986vyEtpEixu/w8UebB5gK1hcLZNHAgoXXvpPfOJAmMrn6mBj3D snM3QZXG72mbTy0; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.47,337,1257120000"; d="scan'208";a="14674214" Received: from notes1.nominet.org.uk ([213.248.197.128]) by mx4.nominet.org.uk with ESMTP; 03 Dec 2009 22:24:16 +0000 In-Reply-To: References: To: Nicholas Weaver Cc: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org WG" Subject: Re: [dnsext] Question on EDNS MTU... MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.5 December 05, 2008 Message-ID: From: Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 22:24:15 +0000 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes1/Nominet(Release 7.0.1FP1 | May 25, 2006) at 03/12/2009 10:24:15 PM, Serialize complete at 03/12/2009 10:24:15 PM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 007B11D180257681_=" Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 007B11D180257681_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Does anyone know of DNS resolver software other than Google's new > recursive resolver service that uses a 1280B EDNS MTU? I can't tell you what brand of server it is, but when I checked the EDNS0 buffer sizes seen from clients of our authoritative servers 1280B was relatively common. Admittedly it was only about 1.5% of the total EDNS0, but 2048B and 512B were about the same volume. 4096B was by far the most common, accounting for over 90% of EDNS0 packets. What is notable is that almost all of those 1280B EDNS0 packets have DO=0. Ray --=_alternative 007B11D180257681_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
> Does anyone know of DNS resolver software other than Google's new
> recursive resolver service that uses a 1280B EDNS MTU?
I can't tell you what brand of server it is, but when I checked the EDNS0 buffer sizes seen from clients of our authoritative servers 1280B was relatively common.

Admittedly it was only about 1.5% of the total EDNS0, but 2048B and 512B were about the same volume.  4096B was by far the most common, accounting for over 90% of EDNS0 packets.

What is notable is that almost all of those 1280B EDNS0 packets have DO=0.

Ray
--=_alternative 007B11D180257681_=-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Dec 3 14:28:45 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7A093A6A86; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 14:28:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.345 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.345 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.908, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mnQekmg99E-I; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 14:28:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C00103A6809; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 14:28:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGK6Y-0007RN-Tg for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 03 Dec 2009 22:24:54 +0000 Received: from [209.86.89.67] (helo=elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGK6X-0007Qt-4f for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Dec 2009 22:24:53 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=WFxG49Cqc/axDFi2H7NwFemqm35iljy9WXAHL2jg9EYHm7zbb/zOgaAAjTCxIj8r; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Cc:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [209.86.224.46] (helo=elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1NGK6W-00030e-B4; Thu, 03 Dec 2009 17:24:52 -0500 Received: from 99.93.224.206 by webmail.earthlink.net with HTTP; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 17:24:52 -0500 Message-ID: <9475131.1259879092302.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 16:24:52 -0600 (GMT-06:00) From: "Jeffrey A. Williams" Reply-To: "Jeffrey A. Williams" To: Stephen Kent , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] GOST algorithms in DNSSEC Cc: Stephen Kent Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: c8e3929e1e9c87a874cfc7ce3b1ad11381c87f5e5196068807a167c985ed5de3534e368f30af63cd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.46 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Stephen and all, Quite frankly it is my position and our practice sense implimenting DNSSEC several years ago that limiting algorithms in any fashion is unwise and can lead to less than adaquate DNS security accordingly. -----Original Message----- >From: Stephen Kent >Sent: Dec 3, 2009 11:57 AM >To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org >Cc: Stephen Kent >Subject: [dnsext] GOST algorithms in DNSSEC > >[ Moderators note: Post was moderated, either because it was posted by > a non-subscriber, or because it was over 20K. > With the massive amount of spam, it is easy to miss and therefore > delete relevant posts by non-subscribers. > Please fix your subscription addresses. ] > >Folks, > >I am opposed to assigning algorithm identifier values to the GOST >algorithms, until the WG has solved the alg ID space problem. I >believe Paul Hoffman suggested this in Hiroshima. > >My reasoning is that we need to provide a clear distinction between: > > - algorithms that are MUSTs, i.e., mandatory to implement in >all DNS resolvers and zone signers > > - algorithms that are MAYs > >Because we have limited space for algorithm IDs under the current >design, I think it appropriate to agree upon a scheme that enables >expansion of the ID space first, and then to assign IDs for these >these two categories of algorithms. One might choose to assign the >two classes of algorithms to two different ID spaces, to reinforce >this notion, although that may not be necessary. > >If alg ID space were not in short supply, this would not be an issue. >In other security protocol contexts with which I am familiar, we have >usually avoided this thorny issue. This is because we have adopted >alg ID schemes that have offer very large (essentially unlimited) >space, e.g., OIDs. Unfortunately, this is not the case for DNSSEC, >and thus I believe that it is prudent to proceed with caution. > >Steve > Regards, Jeffrey A. Williams Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 294k members/stakeholders strong!) "Obedience of the law is the greatest freedom" - Abraham Lincoln "Credit should go with the performance of duty and not with what is very often the accident of glory" - Theodore Roosevelt "If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B; liability depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by P: i.e., whether B is less than PL." United States v. Carroll Towing (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947] =============================================================== Updated 1/26/04 CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security IDNS. div. of Information Network Eng. INEG. INC. ABA member in good standing member ID 01257402 E-Mail jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com Phone: 214-244-4827 From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Dec 3 14:56:54 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C75463A691E; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 14:56:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lXAKSRXdyltG; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 14:56:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2B343A6809; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 14:56:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGKVc-000Aux-48 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 03 Dec 2009 22:50:48 +0000 Received: from [149.20.58.5] (helo=mail.dns-oarc.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGKVb-000Aub-F4 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Dec 2009 22:50:47 +0000 Received: by mail.dns-oarc.net (Postfix, from userid 11202) id B81D7BDC4E; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 22:50:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.dns-oarc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B23BABDC4C; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 22:50:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wessels@dns-oarc.net) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 22:50:46 +0000 (UTC) From: Duane Wessels To: Nicholas Weaver cc: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org WG" Subject: Re: [dnsext] Question on EDNS MTU... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Thu, 3 Dec 2009, Nicholas Weaver wrote: > Does anyone know of DNS resolver software other than Google's new > recursive resolver service that uses a 1280B EDNS MTU? > > > The Measurement Factory recently did a survey that measured the advertised buffer size and the fpdns fingerprint. For those with 1280 bytes fpdns reported one of: JHSOFT simple DNS plus Microsoft Windows DNS 2003 No Match Found (timeout) Duane W. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Dec 3 15:28:11 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D4143A681B; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 15:28:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.355 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.355 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.244, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vnPHEDu5vAzw; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 15:28:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A477D3A62C1; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 15:28:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGL0v-000FIW-UK for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 03 Dec 2009 23:23:09 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::5] (helo=farside.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGL0v-000FIE-68 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Dec 2009 23:23:09 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (drugs.dv.isc.org [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (not verified)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5858CE601C; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 23:23:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nB3NN4jZ026547; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 10:23:05 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200912032323.nB3NN4jZ026547@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Stephen Kent Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews References: Subject: Re: [dnsext] GOST algorithms in DNSSEC In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 03 Dec 2009 12:57:19 CDT." Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 10:23:04 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: In message , Stephen Kent writes: > [ Moderators note: Post was moderated, either because it was posted by > a non-subscriber, or because it was over 20K. > With the massive amount of spam, it is easy to miss and therefore > delete relevant posts by non-subscribers. > Please fix your subscription addresses. ] > > Folks, > > I am opposed to assigning algorithm identifier values to the GOST > algorithms, until the WG has solved the alg ID space problem. I > believe Paul Hoffman suggested this in Hiroshima. > > My reasoning is that we need to provide a clear distinction between: > > - algorithms that are MUSTs, i.e., mandatory to implement in > all DNS resolvers and zone signers > > - algorithms that are MAYs > > Because we have limited space for algorithm IDs under the current > design, I think it appropriate to agree upon a scheme that enables > expansion of the ID space first, and then to assign IDs for these > these two categories of algorithms. One might choose to assign the > two classes of algorithms to two different ID spaces, to reinforce > this notion, although that may not be necessary. > > If alg ID space were not in short supply, this would not be an issue. > In other security protocol contexts with which I am familiar, we have > usually avoided this thorny issue. This is because we have adopted > alg ID schemes that have offer very large (essentially unlimited) > space, e.g., OIDs. Unfortunately, this is not the case for DNSSEC, > and thus I believe that it is prudent to proceed with caution. > > Steve The numeric id space really isn't limited to 256 values. We just havn't formalised how to encode those other values yet as there has not been the need. If/when we get to the point where we will need to use those other values it will be straight forward to provide them. 253 and 254 are examples of how this can be done. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Dec 3 19:37:52 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 346343A67F8; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 19:37:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qwv2K+zjkYzL; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 19:37:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7F613A6784; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 19:37:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGOsz-000CJY-C0 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 03:31:13 +0000 Received: from [2001:4900:1:392:213:20ff:fe1b:3bfe] (helo=monster.hopcount.ca) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGOsy-000CJO-9V for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 03:31:12 +0000 Received: from [199.212.90.24] (helo=dh24.r1.owls.hopcount.ca) by monster.hopcount.ca with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGOst-000LWa-ST; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 03:31:09 +0000 Subject: Re: [dnsext] Question on EDNS MTU... Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Joe Abley In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 22:31:04 -0500 Cc: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org WG" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4F28ABE8-76BF-4073-8E9B-840784D5C83B@hopcount.ca> References: To: Nicholas Weaver X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 2009-12-03, at 16:31, Nicholas Weaver wrote: > Does anyone know of DNS resolver software other than Google's new = recursive resolver service that uses a 1280B EDNS MTU? I haven't done enough thinking about this, but perhaps 1280 bytes is a = good number to choose if you want to provide DNS service over UDP/IPv6, = since it avoids the need to keep state to fragment UDP packets out from = the sending side (DNS server) to destinations (DNS client) whose path = MTU is too small -- 1280 is required to work without fragmentation. The reason this is more relevant to IPv6 than IPv4 is that in v4 the = sending side doesn't keep state so long as the first outbound interface = has a large enough MTU; the sending host expects intermediate routers to = fragment if necessary. It seems reasonable to imagine scenarios where a busy DNS server might = run into resource problems if there was a large diversity of clients for = whom a path MTU was required to be retained. I have done no measurements that would tell me how well the 1280 MUST is = observed in real networks. I also don't know that Google intends to provide their DNS service over = IPv6, but it seems plausible that they would keep their options open. It has occurred to me that if this thinking has any merit, it might be = worth writing up a BCP to document appropriate measures to take to avoid = v6/UDP/path MTU state explosions on DNS servers. Joe= From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Dec 3 21:09:50 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 046D63A6880; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 21:09:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.367 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.367 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.232, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Uv0rdKzIEHuA; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 21:09:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C2AA3A685D; Thu, 3 Dec 2009 21:09:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGQKb-000K75-1E for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 05:03:49 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::5] (helo=farside.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGQKZ-000K6u-T6 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 05:03:47 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (drugs.dv.isc.org [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (not verified)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F7D0E601C; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 05:03:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nB453gHX049036; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 16:03:43 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200912040503.nB453gHX049036@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Joe Abley Cc: Nicholas Weaver , "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org WG" From: Mark Andrews References: <4F28ABE8-76BF-4073-8E9B-840784D5C83B@hopcount.ca> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Question on EDNS MTU... In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 03 Dec 2009 22:31:04 CDT." <4F28ABE8-76BF-4073-8E9B-840784D5C83B@hopcount.ca> Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 16:03:42 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: In message <4F28ABE8-76BF-4073-8E9B-840784D5C83B@hopcount.ca>, Joe Abley writes : > On 2009-12-03, at 16:31, Nicholas Weaver wrote: > > > Does anyone know of DNS resolver software other than Google's new = > recursive resolver service that uses a 1280B EDNS MTU? > > I haven't done enough thinking about this, but perhaps 1280 bytes is a = > good number to choose if you want to provide DNS service over UDP/IPv6, = > since it avoids the need to keep state to fragment UDP packets out from = > the sending side (DNS server) to destinations (DNS client) whose path = > MTU is too small -- 1280 is required to work without fragmentation. > > The reason this is more relevant to IPv6 than IPv4 is that in v4 the = > sending side doesn't keep state so long as the first outbound interface = > has a large enough MTU; the sending host expects intermediate routers to = > fragment if necessary. > > It seems reasonable to imagine scenarios where a busy DNS server might = > run into resource problems if there was a large diversity of clients for = > whom a path MTU was required to be retained. > > I have done no measurements that would tell me how well the 1280 MUST is = > observed in real networks. > > I also don't know that Google intends to provide their DNS service over = > IPv6, but it seems plausible that they would keep their options open. > > It has occurred to me that if this thinking has any merit, it might be = > worth writing up a BCP to document appropriate measures to take to avoid = > v6/UDP/path MTU state explosions on DNS servers. > > Joe IPV6_USE_MIN_MTU was added to the IPv6 Sockets API over a decade ago so that nameservers didn't need to keep PMTU state for every client. If your nameserver doesn't use it complain. If your OS doesn't support it complain. I suspect this will have more to do with limitations of the firewalls Google are using than anything else. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 4 03:40:23 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00F623A69F2; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 03:40:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.095 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.095 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.204, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_UK=1.749, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vTAm4ODLYDfM; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 03:40:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A7CE3A69EB; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 03:40:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGWPd-0001AI-90 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 11:33:25 +0000 Received: from [213.248.199.23] (helo=mx3.nominet.org.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGWPb-00019Y-08 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 11:33:23 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: s=main.dk.nominet.selector; d=nominet.org.uk; c=nofws; q=dns; h=X-IronPort-AV:Received:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:To: Cc:X-Mailer:Message-ID:From:Date:X-MIMETrack:MIME-Version: Content-type; b=xCjnn8G0x/Wo+tW9NInoZs/+IvVKanXUbvbu878egpVwMRNHiOwx6f5i cEQ69gCVyxD+aW/FUG2m6q/D254NNfw6YsZU4ZDfgVNZrxoF17p74uJ5P HcsulX7MgOutSVe; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nominet.org.uk; i=roy@nominet.org.uk; q=dns/txt; s=main.dkim.nominet.selector; t=1259926402; x=1291462402; h=from:sender:reply-to:subject:date:message-id:to:cc: mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-id: content-description:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender: resent-to:resent-cc:resent-message-id:in-reply-to: references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:list-owner:list-archive; z=From:=20roy@nominet.org.uk|Subject:=20Re:=20[dnsext]=20G OST=20algorithms=20in=20DNSSEC|Date:=20Fri,=204=20Dec=202 009=2012:33:19=20+0100|Message-ID:=20 |To:=20Stephen=20Kent=20|Cc:=20namedroppers @ops.ietf.org|MIME-Version:=201.0|In-Reply-To:=20|References:=20; bh=rnLdaPrAYHWMTrE/QasdK6fFduPRQIe66yNsWJX6OKI=; b=tnOw8zEVMuhQ5VjCSs04/5m64pVqiIut/6ap6428ibBDd/s6LcSe89in MzX0GY4TCJdRaNbR810dhBgaiOqzy/xC+FRv7I+m8eMSGDW8CoRP0H3Im iYp36/+HZbRoGjx; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.47,340,1257120000"; d="scan'208";a="19882637" Received: from notes1.nominet.org.uk ([213.248.197.128]) by mx3.nominet.org.uk with ESMTP; 04 Dec 2009 11:33:20 +0000 In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: [dnsext] GOST algorithms in DNSSEC To: Stephen Kent Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Build V85_M2_08202008 August 20, 2008 Message-ID: From: roy@nominet.org.uk Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 12:33:19 +0100 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes1/Nominet(Release 7.0.1FP1 | May 25, 2006) at 04/12/2009 11:33:20 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Stephen Kent wrote on 12/03/2009 06:57:19 PM: > Folks, > > I am opposed to assigning algorithm identifier values to the GOST > algorithms, until the WG has solved the alg ID space problem. I > believe Paul Hoffman suggested this in Hiroshima. It is my understanding that there is no Algorithm ID space problem. > My reasoning is that we need to provide a clear distinction between: > > - algorithms that are MUSTs, i.e., mandatory to implement in > all DNS resolvers and zone signers There isn't such a requirement at all. The "mandatory to implement" applies solely to validators. The resolver just resolves. The server just serves. To those entities, its garbage in, garbage out. It is definitely not required to implement for zone signers. > - algorithms that are MAYs The sole reason to have a MANDATORY for validators is to gracefully consider a zone as unsigned if the parent indicates (by the algorithm field in the DS record) that the child is using an algorithm that might not be implemented everywhere. The alternative is that all algorithms have to be implemented in order to prevent BOGUS state. > Because we have limited space for algorithm IDs under the current > design, I think it appropriate to agree upon a scheme that enables > expansion of the ID space first, and then to assign IDs for these > these two categories of algorithms. There is a near unlimited space that allows for assigning algorithms by allocating part of the signature field. That is standardized for Private Algorithms (see RFC4034 A.1.1). That is trivially adoptable for any other algorithm. This is not subtyping. > One might choose to assign the > two classes of algorithms to two different ID spaces, to reinforce > this notion, although that may not be necessary. > > If alg ID space were not in short supply, this would not be an issue. > In other security protocol contexts with which I am familiar, we have > usually avoided this thorny issue. This is because we have adopted > alg ID schemes that have offer very large (essentially unlimited) > space, e.g., OIDs. Unfortunately, this is not the case for DNSSEC, > and thus I believe that it is prudent to proceed with caution. I think you may have been misinformed. I hope that this helped you to get on the right track. I suggest we allocate an arbitrary (yet unallocated) Algorithm ID to indicate Extended Algorithm ID, and adopt the Private Algorithms scheme for that, and have IANA open a registry. No rocket surgery here. This will take a fraction of the time needed to exhaust the current space. I'm dismayed that you seriously consider halting current work (GOST) in order to solve a non-prudent problem. Why wasn't this a problem for recent work (RSASHA2)? Regards, Roy Arends Sr. Researcher Nominet UK From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 4 05:33:18 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E12BD28C101; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 05:33:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.616 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.616 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.432, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NJpxNnwg2KHF; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 05:33:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC33E28C0FF; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 05:33:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGYDg-000BWI-IS for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 13:29:12 +0000 Received: from [139.91.1.2] (helo=mailgate.ics.forth.gr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGYDf-000BVu-Ee for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 13:29:12 +0000 X-DNSBL-MILTER: Passed Received: from webmail.ics.forth.gr (sphinx.ics.forth.gr [139.91.1.4]) by mailgate.ics.forth.gr (8.14.3/ICS-FORTH/V10-1.5-GATE) with ESMTP id nB4DSslk028622; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 15:28:55 +0200 (EET) Received: from Thanatosnew ([139.91.88.160]) (authenticated bits=0) by webmail.ics.forth.gr (8.12.9//ICS-FORTH/V10.1.0C-EXTNULL-PLUS-SASL) with ESMTP id nB4DSkqt015625; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 15:28:49 +0200 (EET) From: "Vaggelis Segredakis" To: "'Erik van der Poel'" Cc: , "'Andrew Sullivan'" , "'Olafur Gudmundsson'" , "'Vint Cerf'" , "'Sotiris Panaretou'" , References: Subject: [dnsext] RE: Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 15:28:41 +0200 Message-ID: <24DA8FCE39E14E40BBAF227CC0B2AF47@ics.forth.gr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: Acp0QksXm6O7OW/sSjerQz0WI2O9WgAom1nQ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 4B190E96.000 on mailgate : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-ICS-JCHK-SCL: Ham Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Dear Erik, Actually it does not matter whether the final sigma is PVALID or not, although I believe that it will be since both the .gr Registry and .cy Registry have asked for it. We have the same issue with the accent mark "tonos". Almost each word in Greek has this accent mark in small letters but if you put it in capital letters the mark is omitted, creating two different xn-- Punycode translations for each word used as a domain name. We Bundle domain names already because of this "tonos" and we face this bundling issue since 2005 but we had put our hopes on the IDNA revision for a better solution. Since this is not possible, we need the XNAME bundling regardless of the final sigma in IDNA2008 situation. Kind Regards, Vaggelis Segredakis -----Original Message----- From: Erik van der Poel [mailto:erikv@google.com] Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 7:59 PM To: Vaggelis Segredakis Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Andrew Sullivan; Olafur Gudmundsson; Vint Cerf; Sotiris Panaretou; idna-update@alvestrand.no Subject: Re: Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME Vaggelis, thank you for raising this issue on the namedroppers list. Namedroppers, I would like to clarify one item below. On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 7:56 AM, Vaggelis Segredakis wrote: > Recently, as a member of the discussion of the IDNABIS WG I tried to help > resolving these issues by explaining them to that group. However that group > is not free to completely re-design the IDNA protocol to something else but > rather with small steps to reform it to something with fewer issues. > Unfortunately, on this process, one of the changes that are implemented lead > to even more names that have to be bundled together for each registrant. > This makes it even more significant to break this chain of cost for the end > user. The IDNAbis WG drafts have not been published as RFCs yet. Currently, the drafts make Final Sigma (Unicode U+03C2) PVALID, but this issue is currently being discussed in the WG. Erik From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 4 05:34:10 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAFD73A68B7; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 05:34:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.048 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.048 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id feiYGGgR2Ier; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 05:34:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C9A43A6806; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 05:34:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGYBw-000BOr-Jr for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 13:27:24 +0000 Received: from [192.150.186.11] (helo=fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGYBv-000BOa-7Z for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 13:27:23 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (jack.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU [192.150.186.73]) by fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.11.20060614/8.12.11) with ESMTP id nB4DRK2g005931; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 05:27:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [dnsext] Question on EDNS MTU... Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Nicholas Weaver In-Reply-To: <4F28ABE8-76BF-4073-8E9B-840784D5C83B@hopcount.ca> Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 05:27:20 -0800 Cc: Nicholas Weaver , "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org WG" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <4F28ABE8-76BF-4073-8E9B-840784D5C83B@hopcount.ca> To: Joe Abley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Dec 3, 2009, at 7:31 PM, Joe Abley wrote: >=20 > On 2009-12-03, at 16:31, Nicholas Weaver wrote: >=20 >> Does anyone know of DNS resolver software other than Google's new = recursive resolver service that uses a 1280B EDNS MTU? >=20 > I haven't done enough thinking about this, but perhaps 1280 bytes is a = good number to choose if you want to provide DNS service over UDP/IPv6, = since it avoids the need to keep state to fragment UDP packets out from = the sending side (DNS server) to destinations (DNS client) whose path = MTU is too small -- 1280 is required to work without fragmentation. Except that 1280B DNS MTU !=3D 1280B path MTU, as the DNS MTU doesn't = include the UDP header. Also, Google's server is IPv4 only currently. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 4 05:42:04 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF2AA28C0DD; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 05:42:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.048 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.048 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uWrulngH2PQ3; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 05:42:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99EFA3A68D1; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 05:42:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGYLw-000COf-C9 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 13:37:44 +0000 Received: from [129.6.16.227] (helo=smtp.nist.gov) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGYLv-000COK-3x for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 13:37:43 +0000 Received: from WSXGHUB2.xchange.nist.gov (wsxghub2.nist.gov [129.6.18.19]) by smtp.nist.gov (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id nB4DaQ9B026797; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 08:36:26 -0500 Received: from MBCLUSTER.xchange.nist.gov ([fe80::41df:f63f:c718:e08]) by WSXGHUB2.xchange.nist.gov ([2002:8106:1213::8106:1213]) with mapi; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 08:36:14 -0500 From: "Rose, Scott W." To: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org" CC: Stephen Kent , "roy@nominet.org.uk" Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 08:36:25 -0500 Subject: Re: [dnsext] GOST algorithms in DNSSEC Thread-Topic: [dnsext] GOST algorithms in DNSSEC Thread-Index: Acp01zX3ejQ8nQYMRkmKcJ3oFvJ3OQAD5A5q Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-NIST-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-NIST-MailScanner-From: scott.rose@nist.gov Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 12/4/09 6:33 AM, "roy@nominet.org.uk" wrote: > Stephen Kent wrote on 12/03/2009 06:57:19 PM: >=20 >> Folks, >>=20 >> I am opposed to assigning algorithm identifier values to the GOST >> algorithms, until the WG has solved the alg ID space problem. I >> believe Paul Hoffman suggested this in Hiroshima. >=20 > It is my understanding that there is no Algorithm ID space problem. >=20 There could be in the future, but that would depend on a growth of newly developed algorithms. It may be easy to come up with 257 unique algorithms= , but I'd like to think the crypto and DNS communities could boil that down t= o a handful that are used during any given decade. >> My reasoning is that we need to provide a clear distinction between: >>=20 >> - algorithms that are MUSTs, i.e., mandatory to implement in >> all DNS resolvers and zone signers >=20 > There isn't such a requirement at all. The "mandatory to implement" appli= es > solely to validators. The resolver just resolves. The server just serves. > To those entities, its garbage in, garbage out. It is definitely not > required to implement for zone signers. >=20 insert plug for draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-registry-fixes-01 here :) >=20 > I think you may have been misinformed. I hope that this helped you to get > on the right track. >=20 > I suggest we allocate an arbitrary (yet unallocated) Algorithm ID to > indicate Extended Algorithm ID, and adopt the Private Algorithms scheme f= or > that, and have IANA open a registry. No rocket surgery here. This will ta= ke > a fraction of the time needed to exhaust the current space. > Speaking of OID, has anyone ever used the PRIVATE(OID) space for any experimentation? I've heard some other groups wanting to use the DNS for OID lookups, and was curious about previous DNS-OID collaborations. I'd support working to have an expansion clause to the algo code in place now. I don't know if we'd actually need it, but better safe than sorry? Scott =20 > I'm dismayed that you seriously consider halting current work (GOST) in > order to solve a non-prudent problem. Why wasn't this a problem for recen= t > work (RSASHA2)? >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Roy Arends > Sr. Researcher > Nominet UK >=20 >=20 >=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Scott Rose NIST scottr@nist.gov ph: +1 301-975-8439 Google Voice: +1-571-249-3671 http://www.dnsops.gov/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 4 05:48:40 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66C573A68ED; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 05:48:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.555 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.555 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.061, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yW48wG98sIph; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 05:48:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B67A3A6806; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 05:48:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGYRe-000D1j-Ad for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 13:43:38 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGYRZ-000D0y-Mz for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 13:43:34 +0000 Received: from stora.ogud.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nB4DhPF1025091 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 08:43:25 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers@stora.ogud.com) Received: (from namedroppers@localhost) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id nB4DhPVw025090 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 08:43:25 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers) Received: from [139.91.1.2] (helo=mailgate.ics.forth.gr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGY6k-000AwD-Og for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 13:22:08 +0000 X-DNSBL-MILTER: Passed Received: from webmail.ics.forth.gr (sphinx.ics.forth.gr [139.91.1.4]) by mailgate.ics.forth.gr (8.14.3/ICS-FORTH/V10-1.5-GATE) with ESMTP id nB4DLk6A028424; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 15:21:47 +0200 (EET) Received: from Thanatosnew ([139.91.88.160]) (authenticated bits=0) by webmail.ics.forth.gr (8.12.9//ICS-FORTH/V10.1.0C-EXTNULL-PLUS-SASL) with ESMTP id nB4DLbqt015217; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 15:21:41 +0200 (EET) From: "Vaggelis Segredakis" To: "'YAO Jiankang'" , , "'Andrew Sullivan'" , "'Olafur Gudmundsson'" References: <459855804.18780@cnnic.cn> <459911788.23168@cnnic.cn> Subject: [dnsext] RE: Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 15:21:32 +0200 Message-ID: <295352CE3532460F86B18D32855C0D1A@ics.forth.gr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_021D_01CA74F5.7680EA10" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 In-Reply-To: <459911788.23168@cnnic.cn> Thread-Index: Acp0s5fnYVE3si5SSCCa6W66RTm8AQAMIgww X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 4B190CEA.000 on mailgate : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-ICS-JCHK-SCL: Ham X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: [ Moderators note: Post was moderated, either because it was posted by a non-subscriber, or because it was over 20K. With the massive amount of spam, it is easy to miss and therefore delete relevant posts by non-subscribers. Please fix your subscription addresses. ] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_021D_01CA74F5.7680EA10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Yao, Thank you very much for your reply and your interest. I have no experience on authoring such a draft and I could not co-author but if you have any questions on "IDN domains and bundling" that I could assist, please feel free to contact me. Kind Regards, Vaggelis Segredakis _____ From: YAO Jiankang [mailto:yaojk@cnnic.cn] Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 9:30 AM To: Vaggelis Segredakis; namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; 'Andrew Sullivan'; 'Olafur Gudmundsson' Subject: Re: Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME I am intertested in this topic too. Yes, I also wonder whether we can design a XNAME for the bundling name. Is there anybody who is interested in co-author to write the draft about "XNAME"? I am planning to write something. Yao Jiankang CNNIC ----- Original Message ----- From: Vaggelis Segredakis To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org ; 'Andrew Sullivan' ; 'Olafur Gudmundsson' Cc: 'Vint Cerf' ; 'Sotiris Panaretou' ; idna-update@alvestrand.no Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 11:56 PM Subject: Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME Dear Members of the DNSEXT WG, My name is Vaggelis Segredakis and I am the Administrator of the Registry of the .gr ccTLD. Since 2005 the .gr registry has provided our registrants with the option to register domain names in Greek characters, according to the IDNA2003 translation of IDN characters to Latin characters. Due to the design of this protocol, it has been necessary for the registry to bundle domain names that in Greek represent the same word but in the IDNA2003 the representation is different PUNYCODE domain names. To reduce the cost of the use of these domain names, the registry bundles them (with the use of DNAME) in the .gr zone file. We strongly believe that the IDNA protocol should help to ease the use of the domain names and not to present new obstacles to the end users who should not be blamed if the domain name was typed in small or capital letters. I do not wish to burden you with details but if you wish a more elaborate analysis of the issues presented in the IDNA protocols for domain names in Greek characters please refer to my presentations: -http://www.icann.org/en/meetings/lisbon/presentation-idns-greece-27mar07.pd f -https://www.centr.org/main/5354-CTR/version/default/part/AttachmentData/dat a/IGF2009%20-%20Segredakis%20IDNA2008%20a%20Protocol%20with%20shortcomings.p df Bundling these domain names with DNAME seemed like a good choice but there is an issue that this way of bundling does not solve: If you have the domain name xn-1234.gr and you bundle it with xn-5678.gr everything is fine - if you try to visit www.xn--5678.gr; you will be redirected to www.xn--1234.gr. The same applies if you use ns1.xn-1234.gr; it equals to ns1.xn-5678.gr. However, if you try to email user1@xn--5678.gr it will never arrive at user1@xn--1234.gr because this bundling starts from the next level and thus xn-1234.gr<>xn-5678.gr. The source of the problem I am going to ask you to resolve is there. Recently, as a member of the discussion of the IDNABIS WG I tried to help resolving these issues by explaining them to that group. However that group is not free to completely re-design the IDNA protocol to something else but rather with small steps to reform it to something with fewer issues. Unfortunately, on this process, one of the changes that are implemented lead to even more names that have to be bundled together for each registrant. This makes it even more significant to break this chain of cost for the end user. I ask you as a WG to either consider changing DNAME to include the first layer and this way allow emails to be sent to user1@xn--5678.gr and to be delivered to user1@xn--1234.gr or to present in DNS a new command that works like DNAME with the upper layer included, let's call it xNAME for now. By presenting this xNAME you will allow the registries to bundle domain names in a consistent way that has full functionality for the end user who will be able to receive emails, view web pages, FTP e.t.c. using domain names in his language without having to adapt a new protocol. This should be an undisputable right for all the users who do not use the Latin alphabet, the same as it is for Latin alphabet users. I will be happy to answer any questions you might have on my request. I would be even happier if this revision of the DNS was to be presented along with IDNA2008 adoption from the IETF so that the registries that really need this bundling are ready to use these new protocols simultaneously for the benefit of the end users. Kind Regards, Vaggelis Segredakis Administrator of the .GR Top Level Domain Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas Tel. +30-281-0391450 Fax +30-281-0391451 Email segred@ics.forth.gr _____ _______________________________________________ Idna-update mailing list Idna-update@alvestrand.no http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/idna-update ------=_NextPart_000_021D_01CA74F5.7680EA10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear = Yao,

 =

Thank you very = much for your reply and your interest. I have no experience on authoring such a = draft and I could not co-author but if you have any questions on “IDN = domains and bundling” that I could assist, please feel free to contact = me.

 =

Kind = Regards,

 =

Vaggelis = Segredakis

 =

From: YAO Jiankang [mailto:yaojk@cnnic.cn]
Sent: Friday, December = 04, 2009 9:30 AM
To: Vaggelis Segredakis; namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; 'Andrew Sullivan'; 'Olafur Gudmundsson'
Subject: Re: Bundling of = Domain Names and DNAME

 

I am intertested in this topic = too.

 

Yes, I also wonder whether we can design a XNAME for = the bundling name.

 

Is there anybody who is interested in co-author = to write = the draft about "XNAME"?

 

I am planning to write = something.

 

 

Yao Jiankang

CNNIC

 

----- Original Message ----- =

Sent: = Thursday, December 03, 2009 11:56 PM

Subject: = Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME

 

Dear Members of the DNSEXT = WG,

 

My name is Vaggelis Segredakis and I am the Administrator of the Registry of the .gr = ccTLD.

 

Since 2005 the .gr registry has provided our registrants with the option to register domain names in Greek = characters, according to the IDNA2003 translation of IDN characters to Latin = characters. Due to the design of this protocol, it has been necessary for the = registry to bundle domain names that in Greek represent the same word but in the = IDNA2003 the representation is different PUNYCODE domain names. To reduce the = cost of the use of these domain names, the registry bundles them (with the use = of DNAME) in the .gr zone file. We strongly believe that the IDNA protocol = should help to ease the use of the domain names and not to present new = obstacles to the end users who should not be blamed if the domain name was typed in = small or capital letters. I do not wish to burden you with details but if you = wish a more elaborate analysis of the issues presented in the IDNA protocols = for domain names in Greek characters please refer to my = presentations:

 

-http://www.icann.org/en/meetings/lisbon/presen= tation-idns-greece-27mar07.pdf

-https://www.centr.org/main/5354-CTR/version/de= fault/part/AttachmentData/data/IGF2009%20-%20Segredakis%20IDNA2008%20a%20= Protocol%20with%20shortcomings.pdf

 

Bundling these domain names with DNAME seemed = like a good choice but there is an issue that this way of bundling does not = solve:

 

If you have the domain name xn—1234.gr = and you bundle it with xn—5678.gr everything is fine - if you try to visit www.xn--5678.gr; you will be redirected to www.xn--1234.gr. The same = applies if you use ns1.xn—1234.gr; it equals to ns1.xn—5678.gr. = However, if you try to email user1@xn--5678.gr it will never arrive at = user1@xn--1234.gr because this bundling starts from the next level and thus xn—1234.gr<>xn—5678.gr. The source of the problem I am = going to ask you to resolve is there…

 

Recently, as a member of the discussion of the IDNABIS WG I tried to help resolving these issues by explaining them to = that group. However that group is not free to completely re-design the IDNA = protocol to something else but rather with small steps to reform it to something = with fewer issues. Unfortunately, on this process, one of the changes that = are implemented lead to even more names that have to be bundled together for = each registrant. This makes it even more significant to break this chain of = cost for the end user.

 

 I ask you as a WG to either consider = changing DNAME to include the first layer and this way allow emails to be sent to user1@xn--5678.gr and to be delivered to user1@xn--1234.gr or to present = in DNS a new command that works like DNAME with the upper layer included, = let’s call it xNAME for now. By presenting this xNAME you will allow the = registries to bundle domain names in a consistent way that has full functionality = for the end user who will be able to receive emails, view web pages, FTP e.t.c. = using domain names in his language without having to adapt a new protocol. = This should be an undisputable right for all the users who do not use the Latin = alphabet, the same as it is for Latin alphabet users.

 

I will be happy to answer any questions you = might have on my request. I would be even happier if this revision of the DNS = was to be presented along with IDNA2008 adoption from the IETF so that the = registries that really need this bundling are ready to use these new protocols simultaneously for the benefit of the end = users.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Vaggelis Segredakis

Administrator of the .GR Top Level = Domain

Institute of Computer = Science

Foundation for Research and Technology - = Hellas

Tel. +30-281-0391450

Fax +30-281-0391451

Email segred@ics.forth.gr

 

_______________________________________________
Idna-update mailing list
Idna-update@alvestrand.no
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/idna-update

------=_NextPart_000_021D_01CA74F5.7680EA10-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 4 05:56:11 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 060F13A6803; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 05:56:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.301, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EamWUNFVLy5A; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 05:56:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D5C13A6359; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 05:56:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGYZG-000Dq7-Nl for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 13:51:30 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGYZF-000Dpn-SF for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 13:51:29 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (69-196-144-230.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C2F822FE8CDD for ; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 13:51:27 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 08:51:26 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] GOST algorithms in DNSSEC Message-ID: <20091204135125.GC91905@shinkuro.com> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Fri, Dec 04, 2009 at 12:33:19PM +0100, roy@nominet.org.uk wrote: > I suggest we allocate an arbitrary (yet unallocated) Algorithm ID to > indicate Extended Algorithm ID, and adopt the Private Algorithms scheme for > that, and have IANA open a registry. No rocket surgery here. This will take > a fraction of the time needed to exhaust the current space. With my Official Nagger for Work Item Progress hat on, does the above suggest that we can expect a draft from you outlining this plan? A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 4 06:32:56 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D172F3A6891; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 06:32:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LFUhSjJ6qAAu; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 06:32:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 139C43A6862; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 06:32:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGZAP-000HYI-P2 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 14:29:53 +0000 Received: from [2001:4900:1:392:213:20ff:fe1b:3bfe] (helo=monster.hopcount.ca) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGZAO-000HY1-5o for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 14:29:52 +0000 Received: from [199.212.90.24] (helo=dh24.r1.owls.hopcount.ca) by monster.hopcount.ca with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGZAM-0001Nz-0W; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 14:29:50 +0000 Subject: Re: [dnsext] Question on EDNS MTU... Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Joe Abley In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 09:29:47 -0500 Cc: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org WG" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8C0C26CA-4D43-472E-B166-B53841DEB37F@hopcount.ca> References: <4F28ABE8-76BF-4073-8E9B-840784D5C83B@hopcount.ca> To: Nicholas Weaver X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 2009-12-04, at 08:27, Nicholas Weaver wrote: > Except that 1280B DNS MTU !=3D 1280B path MTU, as the DNS MTU doesn't = include the UDP header. Good point :-) From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 4 06:33:18 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC19C3A689C; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 06:33:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.547 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.547 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-3.052, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tfyP7nqIPk9q; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 06:33:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDBDF3A6891; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 06:33:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGZ8X-000HMt-KV for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 14:27:57 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGZ8W-000HMd-Gf for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 14:27:56 +0000 Received: from stora.ogud.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nB4ERtwN025611 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 09:27:55 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers@stora.ogud.com) Received: (from namedroppers@localhost) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id nB4ERtsN025610 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 09:27:55 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers) Received: from [216.239.45.13] (helo=smtp-out.google.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGYnD-000FLB-Cm for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 14:05:56 +0000 Received: from spaceape11.eur.corp.google.com (spaceape11.eur.corp.google.com [172.28.16.145]) by smtp-out.google.com with ESMTP id nB4E5rkW012998 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 06:05:54 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=beta; t=1259935554; bh=ZMFIrlPY0lIjiCAptoZh1dBAofo=; h=Cc:Message-Id:From:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References; b=MEDj1g4oUiuwjwRZYQMkQc0afXbMSogx794VuKSDP8KNX8rwt5aMxGHvhJHaIi11Y t5df8O++JQRu18Rh1oIWw== DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=beta; d=google.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=cc:message-id:from:to:in-reply-to:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:date:references:x-mailer:x-system-of-record; b=cnMAS0kZVTDhmnpEEiVqDKD/WpFAm8DfecfsyppLLDz7uNYe9I82SKIY/YzUGW5B0 3n4V9tP/kCekwoBAh9vUg== Received: from ywh32 (ywh32.prod.google.com [10.192.8.32]) by spaceape11.eur.corp.google.com with ESMTP id nB4E5oEj002595 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 06:05:50 -0800 Received: by ywh32 with SMTP id 32so2562679ywh.14 for ; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 06:05:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.150.48.7 with SMTP id v7mr5455537ybv.149.1259933828846; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 05:37:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.1.66.38? (216-239-44-65.google.com [216.239.44.65]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 22sm1187838ywh.30.2009.12.04.05.37.07 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 04 Dec 2009 05:37:07 -0800 (PST) Cc: "'Erik van der Poel'" , , "'Andrew Sullivan'" , "'Olafur Gudmundsson'" , "'Sotiris Panaretou'" , Message-Id: <151D2BEC-DF26-4A78-916A-5BDE881B0F77@google.com> From: Vint Cerf To: "Vaggelis Segredakis" In-Reply-To: <24DA8FCE39E14E40BBAF227CC0B2AF47@ics.forth.gr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Subject: [dnsext] Re: Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 08:36:50 -0500 References: <24DA8FCE39E14E40BBAF227CC0B2AF47@ics.forth.gr> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-System-Of-Record: true X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: [ Moderators note: Post was moderated, either because it was posted by a non-subscriber, or because it was over 20K. With the massive amount of spam, it is easy to miss and therefore delete relevant posts by non-subscribers. Please fix your subscription addresses. ] Vaggelis, extensions of DNS in the XNAME direction would require creation of a new WG for this purpose. I menion this only to make sure no one is expecting the IDNABIS working group to undertake the idea. Vint On Dec 4, 2009, at 8:28 AM, Vaggelis Segredakis wrote: > Dear Erik, > > Actually it does not matter whether the final sigma is PVALID or not, > although I believe that it will be since both the .gr Registry and .cy > Registry have asked for it. > > We have the same issue with the accent mark "tonos". Almost each > word in > Greek has this accent mark in small letters but if you put it in > capital > letters the mark is omitted, creating two different xn-- Punycode > translations for each word used as a domain name. > > We Bundle domain names already because of this "tonos" and we face > this > bundling issue since 2005 but we had put our hopes on the IDNA > revision for > a better solution. Since this is not possible, we need the XNAME > bundling > regardless of the final sigma in IDNA2008 situation. > > Kind Regards, > > Vaggelis Segredakis > > -----Original Message----- > From: Erik van der Poel [mailto:erikv@google.com] > Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 7:59 PM > To: Vaggelis Segredakis > Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Andrew Sullivan; Olafur Gudmundsson; > Vint > Cerf; Sotiris Panaretou; idna-update@alvestrand.no > Subject: Re: Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME > > Vaggelis, thank you for raising this issue on the namedroppers list. > > Namedroppers, I would like to clarify one item below. > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 7:56 AM, Vaggelis Segredakis > > wrote: >> Recently, as a member of the discussion of the IDNABIS WG I tried >> to help >> resolving these issues by explaining them to that group. However that > group >> is not free to completely re-design the IDNA protocol to something >> else > but >> rather with small steps to reform it to something with fewer issues. >> Unfortunately, on this process, one of the changes that are >> implemented > lead >> to even more names that have to be bundled together for each >> registrant. >> This makes it even more significant to break this chain of cost for >> the > end >> user. > > The IDNAbis WG drafts have not been published as RFCs yet. Currently, > the drafts make Final Sigma (Unicode U+03C2) PVALID, but this issue is > currently being discussed in the WG. > > Erik > > From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 4 06:53:52 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB5903A6922; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 06:53:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.146 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.146 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.153, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_UK=1.749, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c+cuYLLt9L8j; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 06:53:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D01103A6767; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 06:53:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGZTQ-000Jh0-A9 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 14:49:32 +0000 Received: from [213.248.199.24] (helo=mx4.nominet.org.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGZTP-000Jgk-BB for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 14:49:31 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: s=main.dk.nominet.selector; d=nominet.org.uk; c=nofws; q=dns; h=X-IronPort-AV:Received:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:To: Cc:X-Mailer:Message-ID:From:Date:X-MIMETrack:MIME-Version: Content-type; b=gNOG9wAuwxo8GPydZLWFSR1l7UGqEFx9JnkpqkbS2RHf3g4wPLDQs9Jg YIs84vAqb6lNQVxhqvbU2LOaC5RyS9HHnjtV4YeSnVmK0PbYxjVktcNU3 xJlfiXnopi6H6rh; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nominet.org.uk; i=roy@nominet.org.uk; q=dns/txt; s=main.dkim.nominet.selector; t=1259938171; x=1291474171; h=from:sender:reply-to:subject:date:message-id:to:cc: mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-id: content-description:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender: resent-to:resent-cc:resent-message-id:in-reply-to: references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:list-owner:list-archive; z=From:=20roy@nominet.org.uk|Subject:=20Re:=20[dnsext]=20G OST=20algorithms=20in=20DNSSEC|Date:=20Fri,=204=20Dec=202 009=2015:49:27=20+0100|Message-ID:=20 |To:=20Andrew=20Sullivan=20|Cc:=20named roppers@ops.ietf.org|MIME-Version:=201.0|In-Reply-To:=20< 20091204135125.GC91905@shinkuro.com>|References:=20=20=20<2009 1204135125.GC91905@shinkuro.com>; bh=ecR4wRNsqs4MGcTrlmANBtMG8vS9PkhlJTlvod7EGN0=; b=IHWkXBElhZli6I3ZD2oc+qYnjOTBGL324aWua6pYf7TdP6q0AT4/QcE5 RSYgi3DuLTnpJHbWWQ3UAKh584qXmQATMOJ1mSYA6Qw8Kb//90ig+KLnT bfmuAM7+z4p4PdQ; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.47,342,1257120000"; d="scan'208";a="14692435" Received: from notes1.nominet.org.uk ([213.248.197.128]) by mx4.nominet.org.uk with ESMTP; 04 Dec 2009 14:49:28 +0000 In-Reply-To: <20091204135125.GC91905@shinkuro.com> References: <20091204135125.GC91905@shinkuro.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] GOST algorithms in DNSSEC To: Andrew Sullivan Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Build V85_M2_08202008 August 20, 2008 Message-ID: From: roy@nominet.org.uk Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 15:49:27 +0100 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes1/Nominet(Release 7.0.1FP1 | May 25, 2006) at 04/12/2009 02:49:28 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Andrew Sullivan wrote on 12/04/2009 02:51:26 PM: > On Fri, Dec 04, 2009 at 12:33:19PM +0100, roy@nominet.org.uk wrote: > > > I suggest we allocate an arbitrary (yet unallocated) Algorithm ID to > > indicate Extended Algorithm ID, and adopt the Private Algorithms scheme for > > that, and have IANA open a registry. No rocket surgery here. This will take > > a fraction of the time needed to exhaust the current space. > > With my Official Nagger for Work Item Progress hat on, does the above > suggest that we can expect a draft from you outlining this plan? Yes, Regards, Roy Arends Sr. Researcher Nominet UK From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 4 07:15:57 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57FAF28C0CE; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 07:15:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.048 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.048 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zEISieZqENny; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 07:15:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55D813A6963; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 07:15:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGZqA-000MJo-Cd for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 15:13:02 +0000 Received: from [192.150.186.11] (helo=fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGZq9-000MBt-Kn for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 15:13:01 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (jack.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU [192.150.186.73]) by fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.11.20060614/8.12.11) with ESMTP id nB4FCw4x019038; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 07:12:58 -0800 (PST) References: <4F28ABE8-76BF-4073-8E9B-840784D5C83B@hopcount.ca> <8C0C26CA-4D43-472E-B166-B53841DEB37F@hopcount.ca> <20091204150953.GA8919@vacation.karoshi.com.> In-Reply-To: <20091204150953.GA8919@vacation.karoshi.com.> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <4AED04A3-47EC-4CBF-A069-2962F4EB9F8A@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Nicholas Weaver , Joe Abley , "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org WG" From: Nicholas Weaver Subject: Re: [dnsext] Question on EDNS MTU... Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 07:12:58 -0800 To: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Dec 4, 2009, at 7:09 AM, bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com wrote: > On Fri, Dec 04, 2009 at 09:29:47AM -0500, Joe Abley wrote: >>=20 >> On 2009-12-04, at 08:27, Nicholas Weaver wrote: >>=20 >>> Except that 1280B DNS MTU !=3D 1280B path MTU, as the DNS MTU = doesn't include the UDP header. >>=20 >> Good point :-) >>=20 >>=20 >=20 > hence the argument for 1220... Even then the argument doesn't make sense. It only makes sense to have = the EDNS MTU be small enough to avoid fragmentation if a) The network can't handle fragmentation at ALL or b) The stateholding requirements for fragmentation are WORSE than the = stateholding requirements for TCP. a the resolver can discover for itself and memoize. b doesn't seem to make sense. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 4 07:16:23 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5BD928C0CE; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 07:16:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PE5GjxAe1Ur4; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 07:16:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC24B3A684A; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 07:16:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGZoH-000LuJ-Ig for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 15:11:05 +0000 Received: from [198.32.6.68] (helo=vacation.karoshi.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGZoG-000Lu1-Hf for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 15:11:04 +0000 Received: from karoshi.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by vacation.karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id nB4F9wCK008939; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 15:09:58 GMT Received: (from bmanning@localhost) by karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id nB4F9r2c008938; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 15:09:53 GMT Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 15:09:53 +0000 From: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com To: Joe Abley Cc: Nicholas Weaver , "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org WG" Subject: Re: [dnsext] Question on EDNS MTU... Message-ID: <20091204150953.GA8919@vacation.karoshi.com.> References: <4F28ABE8-76BF-4073-8E9B-840784D5C83B@hopcount.ca> <8C0C26CA-4D43-472E-B166-B53841DEB37F@hopcount.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <8C0C26CA-4D43-472E-B166-B53841DEB37F@hopcount.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Fri, Dec 04, 2009 at 09:29:47AM -0500, Joe Abley wrote: > > On 2009-12-04, at 08:27, Nicholas Weaver wrote: > > > Except that 1280B DNS MTU != 1280B path MTU, as the DNS MTU doesn't include the UDP header. > > Good point :-) > > hence the argument for 1220... --bill From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 4 07:19:57 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BBCC3A67EC; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 07:19:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.834 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.834 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.465, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_UK=1.749, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zGA4J5FaWISh; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 07:19:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE1A13A6868; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 07:19:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGZtD-000MfJ-VS for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 15:16:11 +0000 Received: from [131.111.8.137] (helo=ppsw-7.csi.cam.ac.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGZtC-000Mf5-KG for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 15:16:10 +0000 X-Cam-AntiVirus: no malware found X-Cam-SpamDetails: not scanned X-Cam-ScannerInfo: http://www.cam.ac.uk/cs/email/scanner/ Received: from hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.8.51]:56475) by ppsw-7.csi.cam.ac.uk (smtp.hermes.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.157]:25) with esmtpa (EXTERNAL:cet1) id 1NGZtB-00019R-Nv (Exim 4.70) (return-path ); Fri, 04 Dec 2009 15:16:09 +0000 Received: from prayer by hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk (hermes.cam.ac.uk) with local (PRAYER:cet1) id 1NGZtB-0001P6-D7 (Exim 4.67) (return-path ); Fri, 04 Dec 2009 15:16:09 +0000 Received: from [131.111.11.47] by webmail.hermes.cam.ac.uk with HTTP (Prayer-1.3.2); 04 Dec 2009 15:16:08 +0000 Date: 04 Dec 2009 15:16:08 +0000 From: Chris Thompson To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Cc: Vaggelis Segredakis Reply-To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Prayer v1.3.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Dec 3 2009, Vaggelis Segredakis wrote, inter alia: > I ask you as a WG to either consider changing DNAME to include the first >layer and this way allow emails to be sent to user1@xn--5678.gr and to be >delivered to user1@xn--1234.gr or to present in DNS a new command that works >like DNAME with the upper layer included, let's call it xNAME for now. It's totally unrealistic to change the spec of DNAME (in a major particular) after 10 years of deployment, and I'm not going to add an "IMHO" to that. There's nothing innately impossible about having a new "xNAME" type. Like CNAME, but unlike DNAME, it could not coexist with any non-DNSSEC records of the same name (and so it could not occur at a zone apex, for example). Like DNAME, it would render illegal (or at least invisible) all RRs with child names in the same zone file. CNAME synthesis would presumably be required. But deployment of such a new type would hardly occur overnight. Would it, I wonder, be feasible to relax the restriction (explicitly present in RFC 2672) that a CNAME and DNAME cannot exist at the same owner name? (I haven't thought this through in detail yet.) -- Chris Thompson University of Cambridge Computing Service, Email: cet1@ucs.cam.ac.uk New Museums Site, Cambridge CB2 3QH, Phone: +44 1223 334715 United Kingdom. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 4 07:48:12 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA5613A68CB; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 07:48:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.989 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.989 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.310, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_UK=1.749, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FmNhhjlnQrWA; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 07:48:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E92803A6864; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 07:48:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGaIV-000PL0-3y for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 15:42:19 +0000 Received: from [131.111.8.135] (helo=ppsw-5.csi.cam.ac.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGaIS-000PKh-RY for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 15:42:17 +0000 X-Cam-AntiVirus: no malware found X-Cam-SpamDetails: not scanned X-Cam-ScannerInfo: http://www.cam.ac.uk/cs/email/scanner/ Received: from hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.8.51]:55154) by ppsw-5.csi.cam.ac.uk (smtp.hermes.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.155]:25) with esmtpa (EXTERNAL:cet1) id 1NGaIS-0004bq-Go (Exim 4.70) (return-path ); Fri, 04 Dec 2009 15:42:16 +0000 Received: from prayer by hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk (hermes.cam.ac.uk) with local (PRAYER:cet1) id 1NGaIS-0004w5-6P (Exim 4.67) (return-path ); Fri, 04 Dec 2009 15:42:16 +0000 Received: from [131.111.11.47] by webmail.hermes.cam.ac.uk with HTTP (Prayer-1.3.2); 04 Dec 2009 15:42:16 +0000 Date: 04 Dec 2009 15:42:16 +0000 From: Chris Thompson To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Cc: roy@nominet.org.uk Reply-To: cet1@cam.ac.uk Subject: Re: [dnsext] GOST algorithms in DNSSEC Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Prayer v1.3.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Dec 4 2009, roy@nominet.org.uk wrote: >Stephen Kent wrote on 12/03/2009 06:57:19 PM: [...] >> Because we have limited space for algorithm IDs under the current >> design, I think it appropriate to agree upon a scheme that enables >> expansion of the ID space first, and then to assign IDs for these >> these two categories of algorithms. > >There is a near unlimited space that allows for assigning algorithms by >allocating part of the signature field. That is standardized for Private >Algorithms (see RFC4034 A.1.1). That is trivially adoptable for any other >algorithm. This is not subtyping. And in the absence of such information in DS records, how is this part of RFC 4305 to be interpreted? | There MUST be an RRSIG for each RRset using at least one DNSKEY of | each algorithm in the zone apex DNSKEY RRset. The apex DNSKEY RRset | itself MUST be signed by each algorithm appearing in the DS RRset | located at the delegating parent (if any). I seem to recall some discussion of this in the context of algorithm IDs 253 and 254, and I have expressed concern about the legal values for the "parameter octets" in draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-gost-* for similar reasons. -- Chris Thompson University of Cambridge Computing Service, Email: cet1@ucs.cam.ac.uk New Museums Site, Cambridge CB2 3QH, Phone: +44 1223 334715 United Kingdom. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 4 08:06:51 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44AB03A695B; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 08:06:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NIJvXrkK7UCN; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 08:06:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 514843A63EC; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 08:06:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGacD-0001NP-9A for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 16:02:41 +0000 Received: from [2001:4900:1:392:213:20ff:fe1b:3bfe] (helo=monster.hopcount.ca) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGacC-0001NF-HY for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 16:02:40 +0000 Received: from [199.212.90.24] (helo=dh24.r1.owls.hopcount.ca) by monster.hopcount.ca with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGac7-0002PA-Dj; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 16:02:36 +0000 Subject: Re: [dnsext] Question on EDNS MTU... Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Joe Abley In-Reply-To: <4AED04A3-47EC-4CBF-A069-2962F4EB9F8A@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 11:02:34 -0500 Cc: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com, "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org WG" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <87D2E370-300C-42FC-AA33-096FEDA3F012@hopcount.ca> References: <4F28ABE8-76BF-4073-8E9B-840784D5C83B@hopcount.ca> <8C0C26CA-4D43-472E-B166-B53841DEB37F@hopcount.ca> <20091204150953.GA8919@vacation.karoshi.com.> <4AED04A3-47EC-4CBF-A069-2962F4EB9F8A@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> To: Nicholas Weaver X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 2009-12-04, at 10:12, Nicholas Weaver wrote: > a) The network can't handle fragmentation at ALL With IPv6 the network *doesn't* handle fragmentation. The sending host = does it. Intermediate routers either pass packets or drop them. > or > b) The stateholding requirements for fragmentation are WORSE than the = stateholding requirements for TCP. The stateholding requirements for fragmentation are potentially much = worse than those for TCP if you consider the (usual? inevitable?) case = where a nameserver's performance might be limited to a thousand times = more queries per second over UDP than over TCP. For example, BIND9's default setting for the tcp-clients option is 100, = I believe. It's easy to imagine retaining path MTU state for 100,000 UDP = clients on a busy authority-only server (well, if you can imagine there = being 100,000 resolvers in the world that are v6 capable :-) > a the resolver can discover for itself and memoize. The resolver MUST discover for itself and record corresponding state, = with IPv6. > b doesn't seem to make sense. Perhaps if the socket option that Mark mentioned is widely available and = widely used, there is no problem here anyway. I don't know how to tell = whether that's the case though. Joe= From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 4 08:09:23 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 505663A68FE; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 08:09:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.048 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.048 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rzDrqKrFGsh9; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 08:09:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75EE03A680D; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 08:09:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGag1-0001nK-AN for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 16:06:37 +0000 Received: from [192.150.186.11] (helo=fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGag0-0001n6-SG for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 16:06:36 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (jack.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU [192.150.186.73]) by fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.11.20060614/8.12.11) with ESMTP id nB4G6YCk025135; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 08:06:34 -0800 (PST) References: <4F28ABE8-76BF-4073-8E9B-840784D5C83B@hopcount.ca> <8C0C26CA-4D43-472E-B166-B53841DEB37F@hopcount.ca> <20091204150953.GA8919@vacation.karoshi.com.> <4AED04A3-47EC-4CBF-A069-2962F4EB9F8A@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <87D2E370-300C-42FC-AA33-096FEDA3F012@hopcount.ca> In-Reply-To: <87D2E370-300C-42FC-AA33-096FEDA3F012@hopcount.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <8E2276EC-78F7-4F88-92E1-F8CF31961F84@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Nicholas Weaver , bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com, "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org WG" From: Nicholas Weaver Subject: Re: [dnsext] Question on EDNS MTU... Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 08:06:34 -0800 To: Joe Abley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: This still doesn't make sense to me, even in IPv6. In IPv6, if the response is < path MTU, no fragmentation or stateholding = is required. If the response is > path MTU but less than the EDNS MTU, you need the = fragmentation related stateholding. But if the EDNS MTU =3D=3D Path MTU, now it just automatically falls = over to TCP AFTER getting a truncated response. So you STILL have the = big stateholding problem (probably worse, given its the full TCP stack), = PLUS additional latency because you first have the failover to TCP. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 4 08:15:13 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9682F3A693B; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 08:15:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R1X6ywoR1F0N; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 08:15:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB35D3A680D; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 08:15:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGalE-0002LA-Ch for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 16:12:00 +0000 Received: from [65.201.175.9] (helo=cliffie.verisignlabs.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGalD-0002Ki-00 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 16:11:59 +0000 Received: from [10.131.29.89] (h87.s239.verisign.com [216.168.239.87]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by cliffie.verisignlabs.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8EE4A18C60; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 11:11:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [dnsext] GOST algorithms in DNSSEC Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-68-315558656; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 From: David Blacka In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 11:11:56 -0500 Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, roy@nominet.org.uk Message-Id: References: To: cet1@cam.ac.uk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: --Apple-Mail-68-315558656 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Dec 4, 2009, at 10:42 AM, Chris Thompson wrote: > On Dec 4 2009, roy@nominet.org.uk wrote: >=20 >> Stephen Kent wrote on 12/03/2009 06:57:19 PM: > [...] >>> Because we have limited space for algorithm IDs under the current >>> design, I think it appropriate to agree upon a scheme that enables >>> expansion of the ID space first, and then to assign IDs for these >>> these two categories of algorithms. >>=20 >> There is a near unlimited space that allows for assigning algorithms = by >> allocating part of the signature field. That is standardized for = Private >> Algorithms (see RFC4034 A.1.1). That is trivially adoptable for any = other >> algorithm. This is not subtyping. >=20 > And in the absence of such information in DS records, how is this part > of RFC 4305 to be interpreted? >=20 > | There MUST be an RRSIG for each RRset using at least one DNSKEY of > | each algorithm in the zone apex DNSKEY RRset. The apex DNSKEY RRset > | itself MUST be signed by each algorithm appearing in the DS RRset > | located at the delegating parent (if any). >=20 > I seem to recall some discussion of this in the context of algorithm = IDs 253 and 254, and I have expressed concern about the legal values > for the "parameter octets" in draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-gost-* for > similar reasons. This is covered in dnssec-bis-updates-09 = (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-bis-updates-09#sectio= n-4.3) in section 4.3. -- David Blacka =20 Sr. Engineer VeriSign Platform Product Development --Apple-Mail-68-315558656 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMcDCCBhow ggUCoAMCAQICEBc0Avppt6vT9KJWAKLsKTAwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwgcoxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlVT MRcwFQYDVQQKEw5WZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjEfMB0GA1UECxMWVmVyaVNpZ24gVHJ1c3QgTmV0d29y azE6MDgGA1UECxMxKGMpIDE5OTkgVmVyaVNpZ24sIEluYy4gLSBGb3IgYXV0aG9yaXplZCB1c2Ug b25seTFFMEMGA1UEAxM8VmVyaVNpZ24gQ2xhc3MgMiBQdWJsaWMgUHJpbWFyeSBDZXJ0aWZpY2F0 aW9uIEF1dGhvcml0eSAtIEczMB4XDTA5MDMwMzAwMDAwMFoXDTE5MDMwMjIzNTk1OVowgbAxCzAJ BgNVBAYTAlVTMRcwFQYDVQQKEw5WZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjEfMB0GA1UECxMWVmVyaVNpZ24gVHJ1 c3QgTmV0d29yazE7MDkGA1UECxMyVGVybXMgb2YgdXNlIGF0IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LnZlcmlzaWdu 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MfgYHXCkokKRYuMw31nhyHmC6SzDPV21JlhmIbhVPjCZDxn1CofadwqKhmnp2GlhWGf+5zcnIixx YZuMx0jz9EjXK1NuFIZzLIASnD0v/wC2YV6Bt3RsHQF+zPewo5kQX8cK+1f+cjm4AAAAAAAA --Apple-Mail-68-315558656-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 4 08:41:30 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3077C3A680D; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 08:41:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.026 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.026 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.776, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HELO_MISMATCH_DE=1.448, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xpeHPKPFeBWl; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 08:41:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16FE13A68FE; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 08:41:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGbA5-0005MF-2H for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 16:37:41 +0000 Received: from [193.227.124.2] (helo=mx01.bfk.de) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGbA3-0005La-OL for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 16:37:40 +0000 Received: from mx00.int.bfk.de ([10.119.110.2]) by mx01.bfk.de with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) id 1NGb9y-00073V-7Y; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 17:37:34 +0100 Received: by bfk.de with local id 1NGb9y-0005gd-EL; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 16:37:34 +0000 To: Nicholas Weaver Cc: "namedroppers\@ops.ietf.org WG" Subject: Re: [dnsext] Question on EDNS MTU... References: From: Florian Weimer Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 16:37:34 +0000 In-Reply-To: (Nicholas Weaver's message of "Thu\, 3 Dec 2009 13\:31\:35 -0800") Message-ID: <827ht2itkh.fsf@mid.bfk.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: * Nicholas Weaver: > Does anyone know of DNS resolver software other than Google's new > recursive resolver service that uses a 1280B EDNS MTU? Recent versions of the PowerDNS recursor, if I recall correctly. --=20 Florian Weimer BFK edv-consulting GmbH http://www.bfk.de/ Kriegsstra=DFe 100 tel: +49-721-96201-1 D-76133 Karlsruhe fax: +49-721-96201-99 From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 4 09:21:33 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3ADE33A6A42; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 09:21:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QEERb91oQRL4; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 09:21:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AA453A6A3F; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 09:21:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGbla-0009iS-A9 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 17:16:26 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGblV-0009hi-Dv for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 17:16:21 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B835A1340 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 17:16:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org WG" Subject: Re: [dnsext] Question on EDNS MTU... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 04 Dec 2009 07:12:58 PST." <4AED04A3-47EC-4CBF-A069-2962F4EB9F8A@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> References: <4F28ABE8-76BF-4073-8E9B-840784D5C83B@hopcount.ca> <8C0C26CA-4D43-472E-B166-B53841DEB37F@hopcount.ca> <20091204150953.GA8919@vacation.karoshi.com.> <4AED04A3-47EC-4CBF-A069-2962F4EB9F8A@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 17:16:21 +0000 Message-ID: <27158.1259946981@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > From: Nicholas Weaver > Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 07:12:58 -0800 > > > hence the argument for 1220... > > Even then the argument doesn't make sense. It only makes sense to have > the EDNS MTU be small enough to avoid fragmentation if > > a) The network can't handle fragmentation at ALL > or > b) The stateholding requirements for fragmentation are WORSE than the > stateholding requirements for TCP. > > a the resolver can discover for itself and memoize. > > b doesn't seem to make sense. +1. new recommended reading on this topic: "Improving TCP Security with Robust Cookies by Perry Metzger, William Allen Simpson, and Paul Vixie" From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 4 09:26:04 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A33128C108; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 09:26:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1Drn9XDKfNRY; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 09:26:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AE8C3A6937; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 09:26:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGbs5-000ATh-Iq for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 17:23:09 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGbs5-000ATX-03 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 17:23:09 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79D33A1328; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 17:23:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org cc: Vaggelis Segredakis Subject: Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME In-Reply-To: Your message of "04 Dec 2009 15:16:08 GMT." References: X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 17:23:08 +0000 Message-ID: <27716.1259947388@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > Date: 04 Dec 2009 15:16:08 +0000 > From: Chris Thompson > > But deployment of such a new type would hardly occur overnight. yes, it could, because all of .GR's authority servers could be upgraded in one day, and it's the CNAME synthesis that occurs inside authority servers that made DNAME deployable and would presumably do the same for XNAME. > Would it, I wonder, be feasible to relax the restriction (explicitly > present in RFC 2672) that a CNAME and DNAME cannot exist at the > same owner name? (I haven't thought this through in detail yet.) this would be a dramatic, disruptive, chaotic and unwelcome change (IMHO). From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 4 10:04:46 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 210A628C0E8; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 10:04:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.244 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.244 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.749, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q61yhwchQvXX; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 10:04:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2197B28C0E1; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 10:04:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGcQ8-000Fv4-4Q for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 17:58:20 +0000 Received: from [192.245.12.227] (helo=balder-227.proper.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGcQ7-000FuB-Fr for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 17:58:19 +0000 Received: from [10.20.30.158] (75-101-30-90.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [75.101.30.90]) (authenticated bits=0) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id nB4HwFf6097427 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 10:58:17 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 09:58:14 -0800 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: [dnsext] GOST algorithms in DNSSEC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: This discussion has conflated a bunch of topics and, unfortunately, multiple WG documents. The WG LC on the GOST algorithms is to advance what is now draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-gost-05 as a standards track document. The WG work item draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-alg-allocation-00, on which there has been almost no comment, allows non-standards-track RFCs to have IANA code points allocated to them without having to resort to the private code points. The WG work item draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-registry-fixes-01, also thinly discussed, would add a column to the IANA registry to describe the status for use of the various algorithms. As I said in Hiroshima, I think that draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-gost-05 should not progress on standards track for many reasons, but I do think it should be published as an Informational RFC. At least one of the people who responded in favor of moving the GOST document forward admitted to me that they did not notice that it was for standards track (even though that was made clear in the WG LC message). If draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-gost-05 progresses as an Informational RFC concurrent with or after draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-alg-allocation-00 becomes an RFC, the GOST algorithms can be assigned regular code points. If it happens concurrent with or after draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-registry-fixes-01 becomes an RFC, the GOST registration will be clear in the IANA registry. Therefore, I propose that either the WG chairs stop the current GOST WG LC so that the WG can be sure that a non-standards-track algorithm will be given a code point (as many people want), or should re-issue the WG LC to specifically ask what standards level respondents want for this document. --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 4 10:09:37 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 711B53A698C; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 10:09:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.067 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.067 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.232, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_UK=1.749, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id atv6syfgMXiX; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 10:09:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DE303A6A26; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 10:09:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGcYG-000HfS-0X for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 18:06:44 +0000 Received: from [131.111.8.135] (helo=ppsw-5.csi.cam.ac.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGcYF-000HfG-BN for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 18:06:43 +0000 X-Cam-AntiVirus: no malware found X-Cam-SpamDetails: not scanned X-Cam-ScannerInfo: http://www.cam.ac.uk/cs/email/scanner/ Received: from hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.8.51]:48259) by ppsw-5.csi.cam.ac.uk (smtp.hermes.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.155]:25) with esmtpa (EXTERNAL:cet1) id 1NGcYE-0005uy-ID (Exim 4.70) (return-path ); Fri, 04 Dec 2009 18:06:42 +0000 Received: from prayer by hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk (hermes.cam.ac.uk) with local (PRAYER:cet1) id 1NGcYE-00070D-KI (Exim 4.67) (return-path ); Fri, 04 Dec 2009 18:06:42 +0000 Received: from [131.111.11.47] by webmail.hermes.cam.ac.uk with HTTP (Prayer-1.3.2); 04 Dec 2009 18:06:40 +0000 Date: 04 Dec 2009 18:06:40 +0000 From: Chris Thompson To: Paul Vixie Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, Vaggelis Segredakis Reply-To: cet1@cam.ac.uk Subject: Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <27716.1259947388@nsa.vix.com> References: <27716.1259947388@nsa.vix.com> X-Mailer: Prayer v1.3.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Dec 4 2009, Paul Vixie wrote: >> Date: 04 Dec 2009 15:16:08 +0000 >> From: Chris Thompson >> >> But deployment of such a new type would hardly occur overnight. > >yes, it could, because all of .GR's authority servers could be upgraded >in one day, and it's the CNAME synthesis that occurs inside authority >servers that made DNAME deployable and would presumably do the same for >XNAME. Point taken. But this would not be compatible with signing the zone, as validators would have to understand XNAME before they would believe (well, regenerate for themselves in fact) the synthesized CNAMEs. That is, unless you started seriously hacking the GR servers, and had them return a signed (apex) CNAME or a signed DNAME as the query demanded ... >> Would it, I wonder, be feasible to relax the restriction (explicitly >> present in RFC 2672) that a CNAME and DNAME cannot exist at the >> same owner name? (I haven't thought this through in detail yet.) > >this would be a dramatic, disruptive, chaotic and unwelcome change (IMHO). I've already gone off the idea myself :-) -- Chris Thompson University of Cambridge Computing Service, Email: cet1@ucs.cam.ac.uk New Museums Site, Cambridge CB2 3QH, Phone: +44 1223 334715 United Kingdom. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 4 10:53:59 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7CD83A67D8; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 10:53:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uDXSTLbRzZFW; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 10:53:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD6653A684F; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 10:53:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGdDA-000PBn-Ld for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 18:49:00 +0000 Received: from [2001:4900:1:392:213:20ff:fe1b:3bfe] (helo=monster.hopcount.ca) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGdD9-000PBK-V2 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 18:49:00 +0000 Received: from [199.212.90.24] (helo=dh24.r1.owls.hopcount.ca) by monster.hopcount.ca with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGdD5-0003l5-77; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 18:48:57 +0000 Subject: Re: [dnsext] GOST algorithms in DNSSEC Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Joe Abley In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 13:48:53 -0500 Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2BBE98CD-9DC1-4843-9886-A34D7CA4BBD4@hopcount.ca> References: To: Paul Hoffman X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 2009-12-04, at 12:58, Paul Hoffman wrote: > The WG LC on the GOST algorithms is to advance what is now = draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-gost-05 as a standards track document. >=20 > [...] >=20 > Therefore, I propose that either the WG chairs stop the current GOST = WG LC so that the WG can be sure that a non-standards-track algorithm = will be given a code point (as many people want), or should re-issue the = WG LC to specifically ask what standards level respondents want for this = document. I'm not sure I understand the merit of stopping the WGLC on whether to = promote the draft on the standards track. If the WGLC concludes that = standards track is fine, then surely it can just proceed as-is. Joe From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Fri Dec 4 11:09:57 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56D373A685B for ; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 11:09:57 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Reseller ; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 11:09:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from h251073.upc-h.chello.nl (h251073.upc-h.chello.nl [62.194.251.73]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2486C3A67A5 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 11:09:49 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Reseller To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Dear dnsext-archive@ietf.org receive 80% OFF on Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091204190950.2486C3A67A5@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 11:09:49 -0800 (PST) Pfizer ® Newsletter
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Fri Dec 4 11:11:27 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E95D28C121 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 11:11:27 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Reseller ; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 11:11:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from h251073.upc-h.chello.nl (h251073.upc-h.chello.nl [62.194.251.73]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ECD53A68BB for ; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 11:11:18 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Reseller To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Dear dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org receive 80% OFF on Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091204191118.2ECD53A68BB@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 11:11:18 -0800 (PST) Pfizer ® Newsletter
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 4 11:15:23 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EF3E3A63EB; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 11:15:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.836 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.836 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.236, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OpEjQ6Nm1DEH; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 11:15:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E18613A685B; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 11:15:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGdXY-0001RU-Dt for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 19:10:04 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGdXW-0001Qt-UK for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 19:10:03 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (69-196-144-230.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 858262FE8CE6 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 19:09:59 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 14:09:58 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] GOST algorithms in DNSSEC Message-ID: <20091204190957.GU91905@shinkuro.com> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Fri, Dec 04, 2009 at 09:58:14AM -0800, Paul Hoffman wrote: > Therefore, I propose that either the WG chairs stop the current GOST > WG LC so that the WG can be sure that a non-standards-track > algorithm will be given a code point (as many people want), or > should re-issue the WG LC to specifically ask what standards level > respondents want for this document. The Chairs put the question according to the procedures available to us at the time the question was put. In the event there is some future state of affairs in which we might put a different question to the WG participants, then perhaps we would do so. But as things stand, the participants have been invited to express their views with respect to the document, assuming that it must be on the standards track. The question is not withdrawn. Best regards, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 4 11:58:49 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EE9D3A672E; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 11:58:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.768 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.768 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.168, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ogwxMTV4D0Lg; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 11:58:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D44183A63EB; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 11:58:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGeD7-0005i6-OJ for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 19:53:01 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGeD7-0005hn-8u for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 19:53:01 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (69-196-144-230.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7B0CF2FE8CDD for ; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 19:52:59 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 14:52:57 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] Additional editor for draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify Message-ID: <20091204195257.GX91905@shinkuro.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Dear colleagues, Alfred Hönes has agreed to pitch in to help complete the WG's work item, draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify. I want to confirm that he is in fact the choice of the WG in this role. If you have any objection to this appointment, please let me know. Otherwise, it will take effect on Sunday. Best regards, Andrew -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 4 12:12:23 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F2EA3A680E; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 12:12:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.227 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.227 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.732, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lp0daw5P77zK; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 12:12:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 169D93A63EB; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 12:12:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGeRo-0007AS-TJ for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 20:08:12 +0000 Received: from [192.245.12.227] (helo=balder-227.proper.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGeRo-0007AJ-A3 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 20:08:12 +0000 Received: from [10.20.30.158] (75-101-30-90.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [75.101.30.90]) (authenticated bits=0) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id nB4K87CT007982 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 4 Dec 2009 13:08:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2BBE98CD-9DC1-4843-9886-A34D7CA4BBD4@hopcount.ca> References: <2BBE98CD-9DC1-4843-9886-A34D7CA4BBD4@hopcount.ca> Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 12:08:05 -0800 To: Joe Abley From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: [dnsext] GOST algorithms in DNSSEC Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: At 1:48 PM -0500 12/4/09, Joe Abley wrote: >On 2009-12-04, at 12:58, Paul Hoffman wrote: > >> The WG LC on the GOST algorithms is to advance what is now draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-gost-05 as a standards track document. >> >> [...] >> >> Therefore, I propose that either the WG chairs stop the current GOST WG LC so that the WG can be sure that a non-standards-track algorithm will be given a code point (as many people want), or should re-issue the WG LC to specifically ask what standards level respondents want for this document. > >I'm not sure I understand the merit of stopping the WGLC on whether to promote the draft on the standards track. If the WGLC concludes that standards track is fine, then surely it can just proceed as-is. Quite right. Note, however, that the main motivation for the other two documents was people who had no-so-positive feelings for the GOST suite (the very limited implementation experience, the known weakness in the hash algorithm, and so on). --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 4 12:38:19 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23FD53A6A5A; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 12:38:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.283 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.283 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.211, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3yE6hlaBQCeL; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 12:38:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29FB73A6A58; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 12:38:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGerH-0009H8-34 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 20:34:31 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGerF-0009Gn-D5 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 20:34:29 +0000 Received: from [10.31.200.227] (ns.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.6]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nB4KYJsG029055; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 15:34:20 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200910292314.n9TNEwWe006035@stora.ogud.com> References: <200910292314.n9TNEwWe006035@stora.ogud.com> Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 15:34:16 -0500 To: Olafur Gudmundsson/DNSEXT chair From: Edward Lewis Subject: Re: [dnsext] WGLC: Gost algorithms for DNSSEC Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: As there are still messages appearing on this WGLC despite the deadline being November 19, I'll state that the (current[0]) document is ready for promotion. Yeah, as standards track. [0]=(http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-gost-05.txt) At 19:13 -0400 10/29/09, Olafur Gudmundsson/DNSEXT chair wrote: >Dear colleagues, > >This note starts a WGLC for draft "Use of GOST signature >algorithms in DNSKEY and RRSIG Resource Records for DNSSEC" >URL for the document and its history: >http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dnsext/draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-gost >The document is on the standards track. > >The WG last call is for 3 weeks as it overlaps IETF-76. The last call will >end on November 19th at 23:59 UTC. > >This document defines the use of GOST R 34.10-2001 digital signature algorithm >for DNSSEC. The document defines a DNSKEY format for the key, and a format >for storing the resulting signatures in a RRSIG record. > >In addition the document defines a DS digest algorithm based on >GOST R 34.11-94. > >Please read the document carefully, and send comments to the working group. > >Document note: The document uses in examples an unallocated DNSKEY algorithm >code 249, when this document is issued as an RFC a different code WILL be >allocated, the only use of this code is for early interoperabilty testing. > >The document process rules in this group require that at least >5 members of the working to state that they have reviewed the document >and there is consensus of support to publish as a Standards Track RFC. > > Olafur & Andrew -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis NeuStar You can leave a voice message at +1-571-434-5468 As with IPv6, the problem with the deployment of frictionless surfaces is that they're not getting traction. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 4 12:51:00 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 361EC3A68F3; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 12:51:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PvzVXFkOp0Yf; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 12:50:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57A283A6921; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 12:50:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGf3P-000APL-GS for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 20:47:03 +0000 Received: from [207.97.245.195] (helo=smtp195.iad.emailsrvr.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGf3O-000AP1-LW for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 20:47:02 +0000 Received: from relay9.relay.iad.mlsrvr.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay9.relay.iad.mlsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id DE6CB1E61A9; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 15:47:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by relay9.relay.iad.mlsrvr.com (Authenticated sender: schnizlein-AT-isoc.org) with ESMTPSA id 959391E44A2; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 15:47:01 -0500 (EST) Cc: Joe Abley , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Message-Id: <8430618E-226E-4B29-917E-F99401136E72@isoc.org> From: John Schnizlein To: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Subject: Re: [dnsext] GOST algorithms in DNSSEC Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 15:47:01 -0500 References: <2BBE98CD-9DC1-4843-9886-A34D7CA4BBD4@hopcount.ca> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 2009Dec4, at 3:08 PM, Paul Hoffman wrote: > At 1:48 PM -0500 12/4/09, Joe Abley wrote: >> On 2009-12-04, at 12:58, Paul Hoffman wrote: >> >>> The WG LC on the GOST algorithms is to advance what is now draft- >>> ietf-dnsext-dnssec-gost-05 as a standards track document. >>> >>> [...] >>> >>> Therefore, I propose that either the WG chairs stop the current >>> GOST WG LC so that the WG can be sure that a non-standards-track >>> algorithm will be given a code point (as many people want), or >>> should re-issue the WG LC to specifically ask what standards level >>> respondents want for this document. >> >> I'm not sure I understand the merit of stopping the WGLC on whether >> to promote the draft on the standards track. If the WGLC concludes >> that standards track is fine, then surely it can just proceed as-is. > > Quite right. Note, however, that the main motivation for the other > two documents was people who had no-so-positive feelings for the > GOST suite (the very limited implementation experience, the known > weakness in the hash algorithm, and so on). Those concerns, and the risk that there could be a run on locally- mandated algorithms that would use up the code-space, justify progressing the other two documents. However, there is not too much risk to proceed with the standards-track GOST rather than delaying it with dependencies on those other two documents. In other words, let this one go through while putting procedures in place to protect against the potential risk of a run of similar ones. John From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 4 13:18:17 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D4A93A68F3; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 13:18:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.354 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.354 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.141, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ASIkCVIW8P9V; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 13:18:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 746BE3A6892; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 13:18:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGfR7-000CE8-3K for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 21:11:33 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGfR5-000CDe-DH for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 21:11:32 +0000 Received: from [10.31.200.227] (gatt.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.6]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nB4LApNj029350; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 16:10:54 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 16:10:31 -0500 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Edward Lewis Subject: Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, Vaggelis Segredakis , Chris Thompson Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: At 15:16 +0000 12/4/09, Chris Thompson wrote: On one hand I hear "12 years on and no one knows how to do DNAME and many deployments don't have DNAME code." On the other hand I hear "we can't change the definition because of the installed base." Document-wise DNAME is just at "proposed standard." No one has expressed happiness with the existing definition and there is an open document to update the definition. >It's totally unrealistic to change the spec of DNAME (in a major >particular) after 10 years of deployment, and I'm not going to add >an "IMHO" to that. You can send proposed edits of the DNAME definition to the editors of: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2672bis-dname-18 (I already did.) Part of the change I sent in is captured here (the other changes are to descriptive text prior to this): In Section 3.2 3. Start matching down, label by label, in the zone. The matching process can terminate several ways: A. If the whole of QNAME is matched, we have found the node. If the data at the node is a CNAME, and QTYPE does not match CNAME, copy the CNAME RR into the answer section of the response, change QNAME to the canonical name in the CNAME RR, and go back to step 1. + If the data at the node includes* a DNAME and the QTYPE does not + match any RRset(s) at the node, then copy the DNAME RR into + the answer section. If substitution of its for its + in QNAME would overflow the legal size for a , set RCODE to YXDOMAIN [RFC2136] and exit; otherwise + perform the substitution and continue. The server MUST + synthesize a CNAME record as described above and include it + in the answer section. Go back to step 1. Otherwise, copy all RRs which match QTYPE into the answer section and go to step 6. * = in the text I sent the editors, the word was "is". "Includes" is better. "ANY" and "DNAME" QTYPEs don't chase the DNAME (as in "chasing the CNAME"), if the QNAME is an APEX, the SOA, NS won't chase. But if it is the MX record you want and there's no MX at the DNAME owner, then you get it from the target. The change was motivated by what was done in RFC 4592, section 3.3.3 to the CNAME definition, 19 years after the original. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis NeuStar You can leave a voice message at +1-571-434-5468 As with IPv6, the problem with the deployment of frictionless surfaces is that they're not getting traction. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 4 13:34:51 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E23063A6921; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 13:34:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.145 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.145 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.453, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.803, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fOJ5qN1+qtpO; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 13:34:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BA313A6833; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 13:34:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGfkF-000Dkz-2G for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 21:31:19 +0000 Message-Id: Received: from [72.34.52.22] (helo=montage2.altserver.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGfkD-000Djr-VW for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 21:31:18 +0000 Received: from 2.115.94-79.rev.gaoland.net ([79.94.115.2]:1781 helo=jfcmh.jefsey.com) by montage2.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NGfjz-0004TY-KY; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 13:31:04 -0800 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 21:23:03 +0100 To: John C Klensin ,Andrew Sullivan From: JFC Morfin Subject: [dnsext] Re: Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME Cc: "arabic Scripts IDNA" , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org,iusg@ietf.org,workon@idna2010.org In-Reply-To: <273490CA2F5F0FDD563E7AA4@PST.JCK.COM> References: <24DA8FCE39E14E40BBAF227CC0B2AF47@ics.forth.gr> <151D2BEC-DF26-4A78-916A-5BDE881B0F77@google.com> <20091204134724.GB91905@shinkuro.com> <273490CA2F5F0FDD563E7AA4@PST.JCK.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage2.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ops.ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jefsey.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: At 16:15 04/12/2009, John C Klensin wrote: >(2) The disadvantage of such "new RR"-based mechanisms is that >they would take a long time to deploy, at least if the universal >deployment of EDNS0 and DNSSEC are indicative. This may go faster than you think, if there is a Google, Microsoft, Interplus competition supported by a flexible transition mechanism. However, the real target are a full IANA functions take over. Since RFC 4646. The langtags registries are designed to be a problem that only Google can solve. I was strongly opposed by Unicode everytime I tried to introduce an DNS like support in the langtag debate. The real matter we have to consider is the Google's DDDS that will support their DNS and most probably other IANA tables. This is what I call the MDRS, i.e. the Intersem metastructure, I introduced at the UNESCO/ITU meeting we attended a few years ago in Geneva. Its purpose is exactly the same as Google: to organize the world's information and make it universally accessible and useful. Except that we consider that its taxonomies and interpretation schemata are distributed personnal and not decentralised commercial domain. There is NO architectural change in the Internet and DNS since we connected DoD to the international public network in 1984. Google and Interplus do not yet change anything and Microsoft wants to protect its assets. But this does not prevent extensions on Google and Interplus, and probably a few others in China, India and Europe, and an active strategy by Microsoft. Google has a huge user basis, Microsoft has a huge customer basis, Interplus has the whole Internet existing architecture that it opens to FLOSS and people, China, India, Europe, etc. have more than 300 million current userships. Work in Russia, Israel, Arabic countries starts being significant. IMHO IDNA2008 has shown that everyone's interest is to build on 7bits DNS as a common solid core, until the DNS service providers are reduced to a little number of operative communities, whose adminance (technical and administrative governance) can talk together to discuss a DNS.2 evolution which has been made credible. So, for a while competition may stay on value added services (Microsoft?, ISP), people control (Google?), responsiveness and independence from every existing structure (Interplus?), governmental support and DNSSEC (ICANN?). Obviously Google's intrication of Google's DNS and ChromeOS is to carefully consider, etc. All this could actually lead to more a DNS responsible service stability. It is an unexpected "King muder strategy" that may actually help transition a lot. jfc From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 4 13:34:56 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3235D3A67F3; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 13:34:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.782 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.782 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.090, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.803, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c53r8QvDqXcB; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 13:34:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 063773A6833; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 13:34:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGfkL-000DlR-Dk for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 21:31:25 +0000 Message-Id: Received: from [72.34.52.22] (helo=montage2.altserver.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGfkK-000DlC-F5 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 21:31:24 +0000 Received: from 2.115.94-79.rev.gaoland.net ([79.94.115.2]:1780 helo=jfcmh.jefsey.com) by montage2.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NGfjy-0004TX-5t; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 13:31:02 -0800 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 22:30:57 +0100 To: "Vaggelis Segredakis" , "'Erik van der Poel'" From: jefsey Subject: [dnsext] RE: Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME Cc: 'Sotiris Panaretou' , 'Andrew Sullivan' ,namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, 'Vint Cerf' ,'Olafur Gudmundsson' , iucg@ietf.org,workon@idna2010.org In-Reply-To: <24DA8FCE39E14E40BBAF227CC0B2AF47@ics.forth.gr> References: <24DA8FCE39E14E40BBAF227CC0B2AF47@ics.forth.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage2.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ops.ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jefsey.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: At 14:28 04/12/2009, Vaggelis Segredakis wrote: >Dear Erik, > >Actually it does not matter whether the final sigma is PVALID or not, >although I believe that it will be since both the .gr Registry and .cy >Registry have asked for it. > >We have the same issue with the accent mark "tonos". Almost each word in >Greek has this accent mark in small letters but if you put it in capital >letters the mark is omitted, creating two different xn-- Punycode >translations for each word used as a domain name. > >We Bundle domain names already because of this "tonos" and we face this >bundling issue since 2005 but we had put our hopes on the IDNA revision for >a better solution. Since this is not possible, we need the XNAME bundling >regardless of the final sigma in IDNA2008 situation. Dear Vaggelis, I suggest that you write a description of the issue (or quote one) so we can add it to http://idna2010.org issues to solve. There is most probably no real problem in addressing this kind of issue (similar to French access ent majuscules) but we have an entropy issue: we have to address all this kind of needs in a similar way (cf. RFC 1958) to keep it compact. This is the purpose of IDNA2010: to start from now perhaps defunct IDNA2008 we worked together, and document a Better Usage Document, listing the different possible cases and solutions that everyone can use for operational reference. jfc >Kind Regards, > >Vaggelis Segredakis > >-----Original Message----- >From: Erik van der Poel [mailto:erikv@google.com] >Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 7:59 PM >To: Vaggelis Segredakis >Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Andrew Sullivan; Olafur Gudmundsson; Vint >Cerf; Sotiris Panaretou; idna-update@alvestrand.no >Subject: Re: Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME > >Vaggelis, thank you for raising this issue on the namedroppers list. > >Namedroppers, I would like to clarify one item below. > >On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 7:56 AM, Vaggelis Segredakis >wrote: > > Recently, as a member of the discussion of the IDNABIS WG I tried to help > > resolving these issues by explaining them to that group. However that >group > > is not free to completely re-design the IDNA protocol to something else >but > > rather with small steps to reform it to something with fewer issues. > > Unfortunately, on this process, one of the changes that are implemented >lead > > to even more names that have to be bundled together for each registrant. > > This makes it even more significant to break this chain of cost for the >end > > user. > >The IDNAbis WG drafts have not been published as RFCs yet. Currently, >the drafts make Final Sigma (Unicode U+03C2) PVALID, but this issue is >currently being discussed in the WG. > >Erik > > >_______________________________________________ >Idna-update mailing list >Idna-update@alvestrand.no >http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/idna-update From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 4 18:26:51 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB0383A6800; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 18:26:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V2mbrb+RZrP8; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 18:26:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CBB23A63C9; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 18:26:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGkFK-0007ws-SU for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sat, 05 Dec 2009 02:19:42 +0000 Received: from [2001:4900:1:392:213:20ff:fe1b:3bfe] (helo=monster.hopcount.ca) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGkFK-0007wY-3s for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 05 Dec 2009 02:19:42 +0000 Received: from [199.212.90.24] (helo=dh24.r1.owls.hopcount.ca) by monster.hopcount.ca with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGkFF-0007jf-1r; Sat, 05 Dec 2009 02:19:37 +0000 Subject: Re: [dnsext] GOST algorithms in DNSSEC Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Joe Abley In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 21:19:36 -0500 Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <2BBE98CD-9DC1-4843-9886-A34D7CA4BBD4@hopcount.ca> To: Paul Hoffman X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 2009-12-04, at 15:08, Paul Hoffman wrote: > Quite right. Note, however, that the main motivation for the other two = documents was people who had no-so-positive feelings for the GOST suite = (the very limited implementation experience, the known weakness in the = hash algorithm, and so on). I think if people have concerns about GOST as a cryptosystem, they = should feel very free not to use it. However, that seems like no kind of = reason to object to it being standardised in the interests of interop = between those who do not have such concerns. This is not a last call on whether GOST is good. It's a last-call on a = proposal to standardise GOST's use with DNSSEC. Joe From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 4 20:39:12 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A63F3A680B; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 20:39:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.34 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.34 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.845, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YgJV6xjDl2x6; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 20:39:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D94CF3A6783; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 20:39:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGmKm-000H8Q-IC for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sat, 05 Dec 2009 04:33:28 +0000 Received: from [209.85.211.104] (helo=mail-yw0-f104.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGmKj-000H8E-Us for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 05 Dec 2009 04:33:26 +0000 Received: by ywh2 with SMTP id 2so816285ywh.25 for ; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 20:33:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:x-enigmail-version:openpgp :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=RjdnPGht8t6GJE+A6wDqzME9ATpvAPO7eV3IxtiEtDA=; b=r/+zFtKbezBL+DLGPPo2zprr/Z8PI8NeSZUNgHdnqDyGUMNh7z0PpbW3rdeGQ8e5rX KG8sAGC7IMGxT/SliLWocAYWUf9i0nLYfDD2B9V0u/NiMFsPdi6R2iAqMUZmpY8zzOmR enGOWxsWAHxuKFUDAmleRHJl9GqRgkIAjpZes= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :x-enigmail-version:openpgp:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=fNOr1skOOVxU58HhEcE6wlkSFZBocoXw4jv1+WvplEi/Zb5qLksLo19z2i8akvU1KI K/jTlNLmMbFmdjQ2s5mlQXUfyzESu/k6cLhqx8wzdEwjLwxU5yyJgBF8sruMbgCrWy9/ IfN0qalmdHz4aErtI/rW6EAzPqddy1pbN12qc= Received: by 10.151.94.6 with SMTP id w6mr6788766ybl.341.1259987603105; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 20:33:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.0.168? (211-175-17-190.fibertel.com.ar [190.17.175.211]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 7sm1409275ywc.36.2009.12.04.20.33.11 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 04 Dec 2009 20:33:22 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4B19E27A.5070201@gont.com.ar> Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2009 01:32:58 -0300 From: Fernando Gont User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org CC: perry@piermont.com, William Allen Simpson , vixie@isc.org Subject: [dnsext] Some comments on "Improving TCP security with robust cookies" X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D076FFF1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 Hello, folks, Here are some comments on the aforementioned publication: > However, SYN cookies can only be used in emergencies; they are > incompatible with most TCP options. As there is insufficient space in > the sequence number, the cookie is not considered cryptologically > secure. There was an idea by FreeBSD's Andre Opperman to use TCP timestamps to store more bits for the cookies. That would make cookies more TCP-options-friendly. > TCPCT requires the TCP Timestamps Option [5], which in turn requires > Path MTU Discovery [24] and that the Don’t Fragment (DF) bit is > always set in the IP header. Do TCP timestamps really require PMTUD? > Because of these deficiencies, SYN cookies were not accepted for > publication in the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) RFC series > until recently [7]. Sadly enough, I doubt that the reason for which TCP cookies had not been published in the RFC series had to do with their technical properties. The IETF has largely ignored everything that has to do with IP or TCP security. Well known issues such as IPv4 source routing have not only been ignored, but later rehashed in "new" protocols (e.g., RHT0 in IPv6). As another example, it has taken us more than *five* years in TCPM WG to publish something (draft-ietf-tcpm-icmp-attacks) to publish something about the well-known ICMP attacks against TCP. And thanks to some "bright" people, the document is heading for Informational (rather than Std. track or BCP). This situation has been one of the main motivations behind the project on TCP and IP security I carried out on behalf of UK CPNI. FWIW, TCP security: http://www.cpni.gov.uk/Docs/tn-03-09-security-assessment-TCP.pdf IP security: http://www.cpni.gov.uk/Docs/InternetProtocol.pdf > TCP Cookie Transactions (TCPCT) bolster the defense against such > attacks. A cookie option is exchanged as the connection is opened. > These cookies are larger and more unpredictable than addresses, > ports, sequence numbers, and timestamps. They validate the connection > between two parties. While port numbers, sequence numbers, timestamps, etc., *are* predictable in many implementations, they need not be so. In general, RFC1948-like schemes should be applied to all these fields. > A closed TCP port must not be reused until a (TCP TIME-WAIT) timeout > period has expired. If old port numbers are recycled too quickly, > messages intended for the closed session cannot be distinguished from > a newly opened session, appearing to be delayed duplicate > transmissions. This can be avoided if proper algorithms for selecting TCP sequence numbers and TCP timestamps are in place. See, e.g., http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gont-tcpm-tcp-timestamps-02.txt Note: Figure 1 in your document is incorrect. Only the end-point performing the active close (i.e., starting the connection-termination phase) will remain in the TIME-WAIT state. The only scenario in which both endpoints remain in the TIME-WAIT state is that of "simultaneous close", which is generally unlikely. As a meta comment, I'd like to see more details about TCPCT... like a draft specification, or something. Thanks! Kind regards, - -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@acm.org PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJLGeJ3AAoJEJbuqe/Qdv/xmMMIAKos9726PdazhDgpLeLhAvG+ EGo2TUfV6oqnk4sUE8j1Vi+RMRctyJoN8/+6Ic4LzOK7Vtu6dHcq+0/ewZj+0Qo4 mIYcm4fA2y4qG2kuF6yfN5HHTVYj/SOoa6IdEzMLaYKreNuexGmlmYxFNZRXnKE6 5+X+AKwC6Z7S4mJOzQPpI62MvrTGIXOoEhe/PJQll/l7G2qA9732MPRC/Ch20ZWH 7i4ySRjuzbLJDZhHYUSzfbHzWNSCGYEUyHO8Xdo7DhLU00NuSx3Ls4AEg07ZuqMo CF/qB036ixwuXbovVfyOmz5g27MtWAgbDnD6Wdb50rsip4f/WsMf77EVXWTmDCU= =bOn/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Fri Dec 4 21:42:16 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9A693A6836 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 21:42:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -27.288 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-27.288 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, HELO_EQ_CZ=0.445, HOST_EQ_BROADBND=1.118, HOST_EQ_CZ=0.904, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MANGLED_OFF=2.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, NUMERIC_HTTP_ADDR=0.001, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cfhghtIJw7Nf for ; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 21:42:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from 183.68.broadband4.iol.cz (183.68.broadband4.iol.cz [85.71.68.183]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 880003A6813 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 21:42:09 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA Store To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Member dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org get 80% 0FF on ALL Pfizer. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091205054209.880003A6813@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 21:42:09 -0800 (PST) News Today
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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Fri Dec 4 21:42:26 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0E4F3A6840 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 21:42:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -27.288 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-27.288 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, HELO_EQ_CZ=0.445, HOST_EQ_BROADBND=1.118, HOST_EQ_CZ=0.904, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MANGLED_OFF=2.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SvEr7mKiPf5j for ; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 21:42:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from 183.68.broadband4.iol.cz (183.68.broadband4.iol.cz [85.71.68.183]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25F3E3A682D for ; Fri, 4 Dec 2009 21:42:15 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA Store To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Member dnsext-archive@ietf.org get 80% 0FF on ALL Pfizer. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091205054216.25F3E3A682D@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 21:42:15 -0800 (PST) News Today
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sat Dec 5 04:31:08 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 939833A68DF; Sat, 5 Dec 2009 04:31:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qBVLGfAZmzrV; Sat, 5 Dec 2009 04:31:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22BA83A68D8; Sat, 5 Dec 2009 04:31:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGtgQ-000MKf-AM for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sat, 05 Dec 2009 12:24:18 +0000 Received: from [209.85.217.226] (helo=mail-gx0-f226.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGtgI-000MJe-Ru for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 05 Dec 2009 12:24:11 +0000 Received: by gxk26 with SMTP id 26so2978336gxk.1 for ; Sat, 05 Dec 2009 04:24:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=QHLF7g8qE8KYAxu5qnXQg8zadTeHCzpIaqocPvy23v8=; b=K247qKV0tbIaUxyBIFgU/n3eGdAGaV6lM0KmEyTxjlrrsSijjBacL5edxOwuQZiu2X 89xBRCFin3npJGG0zDLwomX3KtVdZPBV/SGbGw3LF8fkCRsJ6emjwny7XEjH+PEfI9Dr nFm/eplnFUbO3nzG79hOfi7MvcRhojjV01LFw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=BdQ26WXobGt75oduMGcPSk609ghTArM2bpUI0RD+62zu52kCpm8ju6gQupThB0x4F1 XnS0JU5D8ILWPL0RCsYUJ4FtsrEBNmZ+P7EJJUTtl8yaZ5qZFAw6G18Sw39uMpAQ6gjB aKPjRD7+mQH+Nlnh0x27gyapHpEmfLZG47R2A= Received: by 10.90.39.27 with SMTP id m27mr6855543agm.78.1260015849042; Sat, 05 Dec 2009 04:24:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from Wastrel.local (c-68-42-73-61.hsd1.mi.comcast.net [68.42.73.61]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 20sm1877282iwn.9.2009.12.05.04.24.05 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 05 Dec 2009 04:24:06 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4B1A50E5.4020707@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2009 07:24:05 -0500 From: William Allen Simpson User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fernando Gont CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, perry@piermont.com, vixie@isc.org Subject: [dnsext] Re: Some comments on "Improving TCP security with robust cookies" References: <4B19E27A.5070201@gont.com.ar> In-Reply-To: <4B19E27A.5070201@gont.com.ar> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Fernando Gont wrote: > Here are some comments on the aforementioned publication: > Nice to know Usenix ;Login: is winging its way to subscribers.... >> However, SYN cookies can only be used in emergencies; they are >> incompatible with most TCP options. As there is insufficient space in >> the sequence number, the cookie is not considered cryptologically >> secure. > > There was an idea by FreeBSD's Andre Opperman to use TCP timestamps to > store more bits for the cookies. That would make cookies more > TCP-options-friendly. > That was implemented in many TCP stacks, and only gives you timestamps -- not SACK, nor the new "TCP User Timeout Option", nor anything else. Syn cookies were clever, and marginally better than nothing, but not as useful as a new option. >> TCPCT requires the TCP Timestamps Option [5], which in turn requires >> Path MTU Discovery [24] and that the Don’t Fragment (DF) bit is >> always set in the IP header. > > Do TCP timestamps really require PMTUD? > Yes, please re-read the specification. >> Because of these deficiencies, SYN cookies were not accepted for >> publication in the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) RFC series >> until recently [7]. > > Sadly enough, I doubt that the reason for which TCP cookies had not > been published in the RFC series had to do with their technical > properties. The IETF has largely ignored everything that has to do with > IP or TCP security. The official reason was the technical properties. But you're preaching to the choir here. I still remember when Steve Kent refused to allow IP security to have a BOF (let alone Working Group). Karn held the BOF anyway in my hotel room at IETF San Diego, and at successive lunch meetings. Karn et alia published via Usenix, too.... I still remember when somebody from Boston with a four (4) character last name got the FBI to investigate me for *treason*, for presenting PPP CHAP at IETF Santa Fe (a meeting with foreign nationals). I still remember Perry calling me this time of the year in 1994, asking me to write IPsec for IPv4. I started (with permission) from drafty drafts for IPv6 by Atkinson. I created "SPI"es, and "transforms", and much of the framework we have today. > Well known issues such as IPv4 source routing have > not only been ignored, but later rehashed in "new" protocols (e.g., RHT0 > in IPv6). Hey, you don't need to tell me, none of that was in the original IPv6. You may have forgotten that I was a member of the original design team. > As another example, it has taken us more than *five* years in > TCPM WG to publish something (draft-ietf-tcpm-icmp-attacks) to publish > something about the well-known ICMP attacks against TCP. And thanks to > some "bright" people, the document is heading for Informational (rather > than Std. track or BCP). > Yes, there's a very good practical reason for not going through TCPM WG. > This situation has been one of the main motivations behind the project > on TCP and IP security I carried out on behalf of UK CPNI. > > FWIW, > TCP security: > http://www.cpni.gov.uk/Docs/tn-03-09-security-assessment-TCP.pdf > IP security: http://www.cpni.gov.uk/Docs/InternetProtocol.pdf > We thank you, and reference your paper. >> TCP Cookie Transactions (TCPCT) bolster the defense against such >> attacks. A cookie option is exchanged as the connection is opened. >> These cookies are larger and more unpredictable than addresses, >> ports, sequence numbers, and timestamps. They validate the connection >> between two parties. > > While port numbers, sequence numbers, timestamps, etc., *are* > predictable in many implementations, they need not be so. In general, > RFC1948-like schemes should be applied to all these fields. > That's true. But in the reality-based community, that hasn't happened. This option signals that *has* happened, because it's a requirement of the specification. >> A closed TCP port must not be reused until a (TCP TIME-WAIT) timeout >> period has expired. If old port numbers are recycled too quickly, >> messages intended for the closed session cannot be distinguished from >> a newly opened session, appearing to be delayed duplicate >> transmissions. > > This can be avoided if proper algorithms for selecting TCP sequence > numbers and TCP timestamps are in place. See, e.g., > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gont-tcpm-tcp-timestamps-02.txt > I'm on the TCPM mailing list, and even before that have been on the TSVWG mailing list (since its inception). I've read various drafts. > Note: Figure 1 in your document is incorrect. Only the end-point > performing the active close (i.e., starting the connection-termination > phase) will remain in the TIME-WAIT state. The only scenario in which > both endpoints remain in the TIME-WAIT state is that of "simultaneous > close", which is generally unlikely. > Interesting comment. But in the reality-based community, that's not how folks have implemented. This option signals that *has* happened, because it's a requirement of the specification. > As a meta comment, I'd like to see more details about TCPCT... like a > draft specification, or something. > The first 5 drafty drafts were completed last August among a select group of implementors. The last time that I tried to submit to internet-drafts, it was closed for IETF. Since there's renewed interest, I'll spin another draft this weekend. The first experimental code should be in the next Linux release, but it's incomplete due to great difficulty working through their arcane process. From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Sat Dec 5 05:17:52 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 155AF3A68E7 for ; Sat, 5 Dec 2009 05:17:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -36.206 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-36.206 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MANGLED_OFF=2.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rQJlLkaFazSG for ; Sat, 5 Dec 2009 05:17:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from triband-mum-59.182.253.17.mtnl.net.in (triband-mum-59.182.251.175.mtnl.net.in [59.182.251.175]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD6FF3A6816 for ; Sat, 5 Dec 2009 05:17:36 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA Store To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Member dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org get 80% 0FF on ALL Pfizer. 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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Sat Dec 5 05:18:16 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 876CE3A68D8 for ; Sat, 5 Dec 2009 05:18:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -36.206 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-36.206 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MANGLED_OFF=2.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uw93hZ3qpSET for ; Sat, 5 Dec 2009 05:18:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from triband-mum-59.182.253.17.mtnl.net.in (triband-mum-59.182.251.175.mtnl.net.in [59.182.251.175]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C27083A6816 for ; Sat, 5 Dec 2009 05:18:13 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA Store To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Member dnsext-archive@ietf.org get 80% 0FF on ALL Pfizer. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091205131813.C27083A6816@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 05:18:13 -0800 (PST) News Today
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sat Dec 5 08:38:25 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 867563A6941; Sat, 5 Dec 2009 08:38:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3u2zY5xL9rVZ; Sat, 5 Dec 2009 08:38:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4B463A68F6; Sat, 5 Dec 2009 08:38:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGxW5-000DvN-Vy for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sat, 05 Dec 2009 16:29:53 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::5] (helo=farside.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGxW4-000DvC-Vz for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 05 Dec 2009 16:29:53 +0000 Received: by farside.isc.org (Postfix, from userid 10265) id 77C49E6069; Sat, 5 Dec 2009 16:29:52 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 16:29:52 +0000 From: Suzanne Woolf To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] GOST algorithms in DNSSEC Message-ID: <20091205162952.GA14744@farside.isc.org> References: <2BBE98CD-9DC1-4843-9886-A34D7CA4BBD4@hopcount.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Fri, Dec 04, 2009 at 09:19:36PM -0500, Joe Abley wrote: > > This is not a last call on whether GOST is good. It's a last-call on > a proposal to standardise GOST's use with DNSSEC. +1 From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Sat Dec 5 08:46:28 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11DDD28B56A for ; Sat, 5 Dec 2009 08:46:28 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Reseller ; Sat, 5 Dec 2009 08:46:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from ip-89-102-93-107.karneval.cz (ip-89-102-93-107.karneval.cz [89.102.93.107]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2B6E3A68C5 for ; Sat, 5 Dec 2009 08:46:20 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Reseller To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Dear dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org receive 80% OFF on Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091205164620.D2B6E3A68C5@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 08:46:20 -0800 (PST) Pfizer ® Newsletter
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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Sat Dec 5 08:46:35 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEFFA3A693F for ; Sat, 5 Dec 2009 08:46:35 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Reseller ; Sat, 5 Dec 2009 08:46:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from ip-89-102-93-107.karneval.cz (ip-89-102-93-107.karneval.cz [89.102.93.107]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8949B3A689C for ; Sat, 5 Dec 2009 08:46:28 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Reseller To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Dear dnsext-archive@ietf.org receive 80% OFF on Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091205164628.8949B3A689C@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 08:46:28 -0800 (PST) Pfizer ® Newsletter
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sat Dec 5 10:32:55 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 273CF3A68BE; Sat, 5 Dec 2009 10:32:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0o0Pvg23ekcx; Sat, 5 Dec 2009 10:32:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 654EF3A6878; Sat, 5 Dec 2009 10:32:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGzLR-000Mdb-SC for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sat, 05 Dec 2009 18:27:01 +0000 Received: from [65.99.1.130] (helo=abenaki.wabanaki.net) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NGzLQ-000Md7-JJ for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 05 Dec 2009 18:27:00 +0000 Received: from limpet.local (cpe-67-241-43-7.twcny.res.rr.com [67.241.43.7]) by abenaki.wabanaki.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nB5II5HT093220; Sat, 5 Dec 2009 13:18:06 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ebw@abenaki.wabanaki.net) Message-ID: <4B1AA5EA.6090806@abenaki.wabanaki.net> Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2009 13:26:50 -0500 From: Eric Brunner-Williams User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Abley CC: Paul Hoffman , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] GOST algorithms in DNSSEC References: <2BBE98CD-9DC1-4843-9886-A34D7CA4BBD4@hopcount.ca> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Joe Abley wrote: > ... that seems like no kind of reason to object to it being standardised in the interests of interop between those who do not have such concerns. ... +1 From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Sun Dec 6 02:53:22 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 736A03A68EC for ; Sun, 6 Dec 2009 02:53:22 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: Genuine Software \256 Reseller ; Sun, 6 Dec 2009 02:53:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from 90-120.104-92.cust.bluewin.ch (90-120.104-92.cust.bluewin.ch [92.104.120.90]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 140D73A685A for ; Sun, 6 Dec 2009 02:53:20 -0800 (PST) From: Genuine Software ® Reseller To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Special Discount 80% for user dnsext-archive@ietf.org on all software MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091206105321.140D73A685A@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 02:53:20 -0800 (PST) Newsletter
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Sun Dec 6 02:54:10 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DD913A685A for ; Sun, 6 Dec 2009 02:54:10 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: Genuine Software \256 Reseller ; Sun, 6 Dec 2009 02:54:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from 90-120.104-92.cust.bluewin.ch (90-120.104-92.cust.bluewin.ch [92.104.120.90]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4615D3A67F5 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 2009 02:54:09 -0800 (PST) From: Genuine Software ® Reseller To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Special Discount 80% for user dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org on all software MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091206105409.4615D3A67F5@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 02:54:09 -0800 (PST) Newsletter
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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Sun Dec 6 05:04:11 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 704B53A6843 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 2009 05:04:11 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: Pfizer \256 Customer Servi[...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -36.066 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-36.066 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OjrnUFTPkEIN for ; Sun, 6 Dec 2009 05:04:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201-67-188-102.bnut3703.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br (201-67-188-102.bnut3703.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [201.67.188.102]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF73F3A67A7 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 2009 05:04:03 -0800 (PST) From: Pfizer ® Customer Service To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Special offer dnsext-archive@ietf.org receive 70% OFF on Pfizer. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091206130403.AF73F3A67A7@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 05:04:03 -0800 (PST) Pfizer ® 80% OFF
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Sun Dec 6 05:04:34 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 594F43A6843 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 2009 05:04:34 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: Pfizer \256 Customer Servi[...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -56.066 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-56.066 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W2SOxy14e7-D for ; Sun, 6 Dec 2009 05:04:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201-67-188-102.bnut3703.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br (201-67-188-102.bnut3703.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [201.67.188.102]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBE6E3A67A7 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 2009 05:04:26 -0800 (PST) From: Pfizer ® Customer Service To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Special offer dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org receive 70% OFF on Pfizer. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091206130426.CBE6E3A67A7@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 05:04:26 -0800 (PST) Pfizer ® 80% OFF
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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Sun Dec 6 05:05:34 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5433C3A6866 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 2009 05:05:34 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: Pfizer \256 Customer Servi[...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -36.066 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-36.066 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ygqvPaLFtyod for ; Sun, 6 Dec 2009 05:05:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201-67-188-102.bnut3703.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br (201-67-188-102.bnut3703.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [201.67.188.102]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99B353A67A7 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 2009 05:05:26 -0800 (PST) From: Pfizer ® Customer Service To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Special offer dnsext-archive@ietf.org receive 70% OFF on Pfizer. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091206130526.99B353A67A7@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 05:05:26 -0800 (PST) Pfizer ® 80% OFF
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Sun Dec 6 05:05:45 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C13A43A68B3 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 2009 05:05:45 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: Pfizer \256 Customer Servi[...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -56.066 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-56.066 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tu2k9IeNHP5O for ; Sun, 6 Dec 2009 05:05:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201-67-188-102.bnut3703.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br (201-67-188-102.bnut3703.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [201.67.188.102]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B90A3A6877 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 2009 05:05:38 -0800 (PST) From: Pfizer ® Customer Service To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Special offer dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org receive 70% OFF on Pfizer. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091206130538.4B90A3A6877@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 05:05:38 -0800 (PST) Pfizer ® 80% OFF
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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Sun Dec 6 18:59:33 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17E3F3A63C9 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 2009 18:59:33 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Online Shop ; Sun, 6 Dec 2009 18:59:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from 125.142.48.116.static.netvigator.com (125.142.48.116.static.netvigator.com [116.48.142.125]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2E073A659A for ; Sun, 6 Dec 2009 18:59:26 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Online Shop To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Valued customer dnsext-archive@ietf.org 80% OFF on Pfizer. Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20091207025926.D2E073A659A@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 18:59:26 -0800 (PST) Newsletter
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Sun Dec 6 18:59:59 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 093E83A659A for ; Sun, 6 Dec 2009 18:59:59 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Online Shop ; Sun, 6 Dec 2009 18:59:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from 125.142.48.116.static.netvigator.com (125.142.48.116.static.netvigator.com [116.48.142.125]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D69443A63C9 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 2009 18:59:52 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Online Shop To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Valued customer dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org 80% OFF on Pfizer. Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20091207025952.D69443A63C9@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 18:59:52 -0800 (PST) Newsletter
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 7 00:14:24 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 019A128C129; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 00:14:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.033 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.033 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.576, BAYES_20=-0.74, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HELO_MISMATCH_DE=1.448, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dZN2st6NKZEX; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 00:14:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1607028C122; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 00:14:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHYZN-0005f2-7I for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 07 Dec 2009 08:03:45 +0000 Received: from [193.227.124.2] (helo=mx01.bfk.de) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHYZL-0005ed-8j for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Dec 2009 08:03:43 +0000 Received: from mx00.int.bfk.de ([10.119.110.2]) by mx01.bfk.de with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) id 1NHYZ5-0002LV-ET; Mon, 07 Dec 2009 09:03:27 +0100 Received: by bfk.de with local id 1NHYZ5-0004bv-Hs; Mon, 07 Dec 2009 08:03:27 +0000 To: Nicholas Weaver Cc: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com, Joe Abley , "namedroppers\@ops.ietf.org WG" Subject: Re: [dnsext] Question on EDNS MTU... References: <4F28ABE8-76BF-4073-8E9B-840784D5C83B@hopcount.ca> <8C0C26CA-4D43-472E-B166-B53841DEB37F@hopcount.ca> <20091204150953.GA8919@vacation.karoshi.com.> <4AED04A3-47EC-4CBF-A069-2962F4EB9F8A@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> From: Florian Weimer Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 08:03:27 +0000 In-Reply-To: <4AED04A3-47EC-4CBF-A069-2962F4EB9F8A@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> (Nicholas Weaver's message of "Fri\, 4 Dec 2009 07\:12\:58 -0800") Message-ID: <82638jb48g.fsf@mid.bfk.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: * Nicholas Weaver: > b) The stateholding requirements for fragmentation are WORSE than > the stateholding requirements for TCP. > b doesn't seem to make sense. Typical load balancers apparently don't do UDP properly, breaking PMTUD if it's active on the nodes. --=20 Florian Weimer BFK edv-consulting GmbH http://www.bfk.de/ Kriegsstra=DFe 100 tel: +49-721-96201-1 D-76133 Karlsruhe fax: +49-721-96201-99 From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 7 05:40:23 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE4D33A67B1; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 05:40:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.048 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.048 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ff6mdL8t59RD; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 05:40:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1C3E3A6832; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 05:40:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHdiZ-000Evx-Ba for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 07 Dec 2009 13:33:35 +0000 Received: from [192.150.186.11] (helo=fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHdiY-000Evk-Kj for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Dec 2009 13:33:34 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (jack.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU [192.150.186.73]) by fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.11.20060614/8.12.11) with ESMTP id nB7DPwfc015436; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 05:25:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [dnsext] Question on EDNS MTU... Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Nicholas Weaver In-Reply-To: <82638jb48g.fsf@mid.bfk.de> Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 05:25:58 -0800 Cc: Nicholas Weaver , bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com, Joe Abley , "namedroppers\@ops.ietf.org WG" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6F91729D-E8E0-48A3-8A99-D6DDFB73F0FB@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> References: <4F28ABE8-76BF-4073-8E9B-840784D5C83B@hopcount.ca> <8C0C26CA-4D43-472E-B166-B53841DEB37F@hopcount.ca> <20091204150953.GA8919@vacation.karoshi.com.> <4AED04A3-47EC-4CBF-A069-2962F4EB9F8A@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <82638jb48g.fsf@mid.bfk.de> To: Florian Weimer X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Dec 7, 2009, at 12:03 AM, Florian Weimer wrote: > * Nicholas Weaver: >=20 >> b) The stateholding requirements for fragmentation are WORSE than >> the stateholding requirements for TCP. >=20 >> b doesn't seem to make sense. >=20 > Typical load balancers apparently don't do UDP properly, breaking > PMTUD if it's active on the nodes. This would be=20 a: "Fragmentation is broken", which IMO, can and should be handled = automatically on a resolver by resolver basis, and should not instead be = handled by a dumb default (which, incidentally, won't guarentee lack of = fragmentation even on IPv6). From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 7 06:13:31 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC6EF3A6A55; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 06:13:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.048 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.048 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 99lfkti9Pd8U; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 06:13:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 969313A6A51; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 06:13:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHeFH-000ImH-E0 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 07 Dec 2009 14:07:23 +0000 Received: from [129.6.16.227] (helo=smtp.nist.gov) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHeFF-000Ils-GN for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Dec 2009 14:07:21 +0000 Received: from WSXGHUB1.xchange.nist.gov (wsxghub1.nist.gov [129.6.18.96]) by smtp.nist.gov (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id nB7E6Ek6007991; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 09:06:14 -0500 Received: from MBCLUSTER.xchange.nist.gov ([fe80::41df:f63f:c718:e08]) by WSXGHUB1.xchange.nist.gov ([2002:8106:1260::8106:1260]) with mapi; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 09:06:14 -0500 From: "Rose, Scott W." To: Edward Lewis , "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org" CC: Vaggelis Segredakis , Chris Thompson Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 09:06:13 -0500 Subject: Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME Thread-Topic: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME Thread-Index: Acp1J7yOomn5iMn2Ql2pusBBOyobSgCHrKdG Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-NIST-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-NIST-MailScanner-From: scott.rose@nist.gov Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Wouldn't this be a problem for DNSSEC aware clients that see a response wit= h a DNAME? These clients would ignore the synthesized CNAME and get confused with the resulting DNAME. So in a zone with=20 TLD. DNAME TLD2. RRSIG (DNAME) and a DNSSEC enabled query for: TLD. IN MX would be (similar to Sec 5.3.4.3 in dname-bis draft): Question: TLD. IN MX ANS: TLD. DNAME TLD2. RRSIG (DNAME) TLD. CNAME TLD2. (Auth/Add sections dropped) The validator would ignore the unsigned CNAME and be left with the DNAME that matches the QNAME. What would happen to a client that gets a DNAME that has the owner name that equals the QNAME? (as in: what does the current validator code do?) Perhaps a new RR would clean things up: CDNAME (XNAME/ENAME/Whatever) whic= h would basically be a combined CNAME and DNAME. That might have the same problems with DNSSEC. Or else relax the server rules about CNAME/DNAME placement. i.e. a CNAME and DNAME is allowed at the same owner name (and signed), and change the server algorithm so that: If the labels(QNAME) =3D labels(CNAME), then return the CNAME. If the labels(QNAME) > labels(CNAME), then use the DNAME (and synthesize/include the CNAME but drop the RRSIG over it). =20 Does this make sense? Technically, only the authoritative server code woul= d change, but it would only need to be those authoritative servers which want this feature: a combined CNAME and DNAME RR. Ideally, whatever solution we have should work with current validators. Scott On 12/4/09 4:10 PM, "Edward Lewis" wrote: > At 15:16 +0000 12/4/09, Chris Thompson wrote: >=20 > On one hand I hear "12 years on and no one knows how to do DNAME and > many deployments don't have DNAME code." On the other hand I hear > "we can't change the definition because of the installed base." >=20 > Document-wise DNAME is just at "proposed standard." No one has > expressed happiness with the existing definition and there is an open > document to update the definition. >=20 >> It's totally unrealistic to change the spec of DNAME (in a major >> particular) after 10 years of deployment, and I'm not going to add >> an "IMHO" to that. >=20 > You can send proposed edits of the DNAME definition to the editors of: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2672bis-dname-18 >=20 > (I already did.) >=20 > Part of the change I sent in is captured here (the other changes are > to descriptive text prior to this): >=20 > In Section 3.2 >=20 > 3. Start matching down, label by label, in the zone. The matching > process can terminate several ways: >=20 > A. If the whole of QNAME is matched, we have found the node. >=20 > If the data at the node is a CNAME, and QTYPE does not match > CNAME, copy the CNAME RR into the answer section of the > response, change QNAME to the canonical name in the CNAME RR, > and go back to step 1. >=20 > + If the data at the node includes* a DNAME and the QTYPE does n= ot > + match any RRset(s) at the node, then copy the DNAME RR into > + the answer section. If substitution of its for its > + in QNAME would overflow the legal size for a + name>, set RCODE to YXDOMAIN [RFC2136] and exit; otherwise > + perform the substitution and continue. The server MUST > + synthesize a CNAME record as described above and include it > + in the answer section. Go back to step 1. >=20 > Otherwise, copy all RRs which match QTYPE into the answer > section and go to step 6. >=20 > * =3D in the text I sent the editors, the word was "is". "Includes" is b= etter. >=20 > "ANY" and "DNAME" QTYPEs don't chase the DNAME (as in "chasing the > CNAME"), if the QNAME is an APEX, the SOA, NS won't chase. But if it > is the MX record you want and there's no MX at the DNAME owner, then > you get it from the target. >=20 > The change was motivated by what was done in RFC 4592, section 3.3.3 > to the CNAME definition, 19 years after the original. >=20 > -- > -=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-= =3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D= - > Edward Lewis > NeuStar You can leave a voice message at +1-571-434-54= 68 >=20 > As with IPv6, the problem with the deployment of frictionless surfaces is > that they're not getting traction. >=20 >=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Scott Rose NIST scottr@nist.gov ph: +1 301-975-8439 Google Voice: +1-571-249-3671 http://www.dnsops.gov/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 7 06:29:49 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B51F3A6A50; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 06:29:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.349 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.349 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.550, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IoDsMRK26E25; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 06:29:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11C383A6846; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 06:29:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHeW6-000KSC-5h for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 07 Dec 2009 14:24:46 +0000 Received: from [64.102.122.148] (helo=rtp-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHeW1-000KRf-95 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Dec 2009 14:24:41 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AkQFAFeeHEurRN+J/2dsb2JhbAAsmhqoS4kOCYx6gkqBaQSBZw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.47,355,1257120000"; d="scan'208";a="72487396" Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com ([171.68.223.137]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 Dec 2009 14:24:39 +0000 Received: from xbh-ams-101.cisco.com (xbh-ams-101.cisco.com [144.254.74.71]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nB7EOScI016461; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 14:24:38 GMT Received: from xfe-ams-201.cisco.com ([144.254.231.95]) by xbh-ams-101.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 7 Dec 2009 15:24:27 +0100 Received: from [192.165.72.14] ([10.55.83.227]) by xfe-ams-201.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 7 Dec 2009 15:24:27 +0100 Subject: Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 15:24:25 +0100 Cc: Edward Lewis , "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org" , Vaggelis Segredakis , Chris Thompson Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9CC38044-72F5-44FC-80FC-3EAF6ADA7095@cisco.com> References: To: "Rose, Scott W." X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Dec 2009 14:24:27.0389 (UTC) FILETIME=[FB79BAD0:01CA7748] Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 7 dec 2009, at 15.06, Rose, Scott W. wrote: > Wouldn't this be a problem for DNSSEC aware clients that see a = response with > a DNAME? These clients would ignore the synthesized CNAME and get = confused > with the resulting DNAME. >=20 > So in a zone with=20 > TLD. DNAME TLD2. > RRSIG (DNAME) >=20 > and a DNSSEC enabled query for: > TLD. IN MX >=20 > would be (similar to Sec 5.3.4.3 in dname-bis draft): > Question: > TLD. IN MX >=20 > ANS: > TLD. DNAME TLD2. > RRSIG (DNAME) > TLD. CNAME TLD2. >=20 > (Auth/Add sections dropped) >=20 > The validator would ignore the unsigned CNAME and be left with the = DNAME > that matches the QNAME. What would happen to a client that gets a = DNAME > that has the owner name that equals the QNAME? (as in: what does the > current validator code do?) >=20 > Perhaps a new RR would clean things up: CDNAME (XNAME/ENAME/Whatever) = which > would basically be a combined CNAME and DNAME. That might have the = same > problems with DNSSEC. Or else relax the server rules about = CNAME/DNAME > placement. i.e. a CNAME and DNAME is allowed at the same owner name = (and > signed), and change the server algorithm so that: >=20 > If the labels(QNAME) =3D labels(CNAME), then return the CNAME. > If the labels(QNAME) > labels(CNAME), then use the DNAME (and > synthesize/include the CNAME but drop the RRSIG over it). >=20 > Does this make sense? Technically, only the authoritative server code = would > change, but it would only need to be those authoritative servers which = want > this feature: a combined CNAME and DNAME RR. Ideally, whatever = solution we > have should work with current validators. >=20 > Scott >=20 > On 12/4/09 4:10 PM, "Edward Lewis" wrote: >=20 >> At 15:16 +0000 12/4/09, Chris Thompson wrote: >>=20 >> On one hand I hear "12 years on and no one knows how to do DNAME and >> many deployments don't have DNAME code." On the other hand I hear >> "we can't change the definition because of the installed base." >>=20 >> Document-wise DNAME is just at "proposed standard." No one has >> expressed happiness with the existing definition and there is an open >> document to update the definition. >>=20 >>> It's totally unrealistic to change the spec of DNAME (in a major >>> particular) after 10 years of deployment, and I'm not going to add >>> an "IMHO" to that. >>=20 >> You can send proposed edits of the DNAME definition to the editors = of: >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2672bis-dname-18 >>=20 >> (I already did.) >>=20 >> Part of the change I sent in is captured here (the other changes are >> to descriptive text prior to this): >>=20 >> In Section 3.2 >>=20 >> 3. Start matching down, label by label, in the zone. The = matching >> process can terminate several ways: >>=20 >> A. If the whole of QNAME is matched, we have found the node. >>=20 >> If the data at the node is a CNAME, and QTYPE does not = match >> CNAME, copy the CNAME RR into the answer section of the >> response, change QNAME to the canonical name in the CNAME = RR, >> and go back to step 1. >>=20 >> + If the data at the node includes* a DNAME and the QTYPE = does not >> + match any RRset(s) at the node, then copy the DNAME RR = into >> + the answer section. If substitution of its for = its >> + in QNAME would overflow the legal size for a = > + name>, set RCODE to YXDOMAIN [RFC2136] and exit; otherwise >> + perform the substitution and continue. The server MUST >> + synthesize a CNAME record as described above and include = it >> + in the answer section. Go back to step 1. >>=20 >> Otherwise, copy all RRs which match QTYPE into the answer >> section and go to step 6. >>=20 >> * =3D in the text I sent the editors, the word was "is". "Includes" = is better. >>=20 >> "ANY" and "DNAME" QTYPEs don't chase the DNAME (as in "chasing the >> CNAME"), if the QNAME is an APEX, the SOA, NS won't chase. But if it >> is the MX record you want and there's no MX at the DNAME owner, then >> you get it from the target. >>=20 >> The change was motivated by what was done in RFC 4592, section 3.3.3 >> to the CNAME definition, 19 years after the original. >>=20 >> -- >> = -=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D= -=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D- >> Edward Lewis >> NeuStar You can leave a voice message at = +1-571-434-5468 >>=20 >> As with IPv6, the problem with the deployment of frictionless = surfaces is >> that they're not getting traction. >>=20 >>=20 >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Scott Rose > NIST > scottr@nist.gov > ph: +1 301-975-8439 > Google Voice: +1-571-249-3671 >=20 > http://www.dnsops.gov/ > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 >=20 >=20 From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Mon Dec 7 07:18:35 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3492128C191 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 07:18:35 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Reseller ; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 07:18:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from 98-111.77-83.cust.bluewin.ch (98-111.77-83.cust.bluewin.ch [83.77.111.98]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7C9C28C196 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 07:18:27 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Reseller To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Dear dnsext-archive@ietf.org receive 80% OFF on Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091207151827.A7C9C28C196@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 07:18:27 -0800 (PST) Pfizer ® Newsletter
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Mon Dec 7 07:19:47 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F00773A6A5A for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 07:19:46 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Reseller ; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 07:19:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from 98-111.77-83.cust.bluewin.ch (98-111.77-83.cust.bluewin.ch [83.77.111.98]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B14303A68C6 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 07:19:39 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Reseller To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Dear dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org receive 80% OFF on Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091207151939.B14303A68C6@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 07:19:39 -0800 (PST) Pfizer ® Newsletter
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 7 07:29:38 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6664A3A6816; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 07:29:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.389 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.389 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.106, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZgGOtoYuxeCm; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 07:29:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62B703A67A4; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 07:29:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHfRW-0000nm-Es for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 07 Dec 2009 15:24:06 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHfRV-0000nY-Hb for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Dec 2009 15:24:05 +0000 Received: from [10.31.200.244] (ns.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.6]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nB7FNgJR011401; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 10:23:54 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 10:23:33 -0500 To: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org" From: Edward Lewis Subject: Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME Cc: Edward Lewis , "Rose, Scott W." Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: At 9:06 -0500 12/7/09, Rose, Scott W. wrote: >The validator would ignore the unsigned CNAME and be left with the DNAME >that matches the QNAME. What would happen to a client that gets a DNAME >that has the owner name that equals the QNAME? (as in: what does the >current validator code do?) Why would the validator 'ignore' the CNAME? (I mean, I don't get your point.) Unless you mean that it is just not signed. For a response that involves a DNAME, here are the possibilities. 1. QNAME is the owner of the DNAME, type is ANY or DNAME. In this case, the response would include the DNAME as an answer and not as a rewrite rule, hence the synthesized CNAME would not be part of the answer. 2. QNAME is the owner of the DNAME, type is present at the owner. In this case the DNAME would not be part of the answer at all, the CNAME goes un-synthesized. 3. QNAME is the owner of the DNAME, type is not present at the owner. In this case the DNAME appears as the rewrite rule plus the synthesized CNAME. If the nameserver is also authoritative for the target, then the answer looks like a CNAME response plus the DNAME. With DNSSEC involved, there would be a signature for the DNAME and a signature for the target-provided answer (note it might be that only one of the two zones is signed) plus a NSEC or NSEC3 showing that there is no RRset at the owner that matches the query. 4. QNAME is a descendent of the DNAME In this case we are back to the DNAME as we mis-understand it today. >Perhaps a new RR would clean things up: CDNAME (XNAME/ENAME/Whatever) which >would basically be a combined CNAME and DNAME. That might have the same >problems with DNSSEC. I just am not seeing the problems with DNSSEC. Maybe because I think of DNSSEC as merely supplying the proof that what is in "The Algorithm" (which is what first appeared in RFC 1034/4.3.2 and then modified by 4592 and the DNAME RFC, and now in this draft) so - if the algorithm works and is understood by both, all we need to get out of DNSSEC is proof of each step. That might mean more negative answer proofs than we'd expect, but that just might be what is needed. > Or else relax the server rules about CNAME/DNAME >placement. i.e. a CNAME and DNAME is allowed at the same owner name (and >signed), and change the server algorithm so that: > >If the labels(QNAME) = labels(CNAME), then return the CNAME. >If the labels(QNAME) > labels(CNAME), then use the DNAME (and >synthesize/include the CNAME but drop the RRSIG over it). > >Does this make sense? Technically, only the authoritative server code would >change, but it would only need to be those authoritative servers which want >this feature: a combined CNAME and DNAME RR. Ideally, whatever solution we >have should work with current validators. Ultimately, I think the issue of allowing CNAME and DNAME together is "then what about the SOA?" DNAME wants to be at a zone apex, CNAME now can't be. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis NeuStar You can leave a voice message at +1-571-434-5468 As with IPv6, the problem with the deployment of frictionless surfaces is that they're not getting traction. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 7 07:50:30 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A9B43A68C2; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 07:50:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2iaZrRgvRX7u; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 07:50:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 618DC3A6853; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 07:50:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHfmm-0002la-95 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 07 Dec 2009 15:46:04 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:36::28] (helo=white.flame.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHfml-0002lN-3p for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Dec 2009 15:46:03 +0000 Received: from white.flame.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by white.flame.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C11C17D194; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 15:46:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: from whitedragon.local (unknown [12.54.124.42]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by white.flame.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1A66B17D193; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 15:46:01 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <4B1D2339.4000405@isc.org> Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 07:46:01 -0800 From: Michael Graff User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Rose, Scott W." CC: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Rose, Scott W. wrote: > The validator would ignore the unsigned CNAME and be left with the DNAME > that matches the QNAME. What would happen to a client that gets a DNAME > that has the owner name that equals the QNAME? (as in: what does the > current validator code do?) > The CNAME is created for clients which do not understand DNAME because they are too old to do so. A DNSSEC resolver should understand DNAME and therefore ignore the CNAME anyway; I don't think this is specified anywhere though that DNAME should be understood by DNSSEC resolvers, only implied because it's assumed DNSSEC == modern == all in-use RFCs implemented. --Michael From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 7 08:02:26 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 387833A6A71; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 08:02:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.048 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.048 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.001, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16KdTZr1P-fc; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 08:02:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCCA53A681D; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 08:02:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHfy9-0003sz-Nd for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 07 Dec 2009 15:57:49 +0000 Received: from [129.6.16.227] (helo=smtp.nist.gov) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHfy2-0003s7-T1 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Dec 2009 15:57:43 +0000 Received: from WSXGHUB1.xchange.nist.gov (wsxghub1.nist.gov [129.6.18.96]) by smtp.nist.gov (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id nB7FvFiL031472; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 10:57:15 -0500 Received: from MBCLUSTER.xchange.nist.gov ([fe80::41df:f63f:c718:e08]) by WSXGHUB1.xchange.nist.gov ([2002:8106:1260::8106:1260]) with mapi; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 10:57:15 -0500 From: "Rose, Scott W." To: Michael Graff CC: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org" Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 10:57:14 -0500 Subject: Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME Thread-Topic: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME Thread-Index: Acp3VHEtMDruOsfPT8atsbXB2PmrPgAAYBBn Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4B1D2339.4000405@isc.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C742900A951Escottrosenistgov_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-NIST-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-NIST-MailScanner-From: scott.rose@nist.gov Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: --_000_C742900A951Escottrosenistgov_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I probably wasn't clear. The real question is what does the validator do w= hen it gets a DNAME with an owner name equal to the QNAME (and the QTYPE is= not DNAME)? Right now in dname-bis (and original spec) it's -= substitution is not done (Section 2.2, Table 1). Ed's proposed text woul= d make the DNAME act as a CNAME in that case, which is fine, but would a va= lidating resolver know to do that? Scott On 12/7/09 10:46 AM, "Michael Graff" wrote: Rose, Scott W. wrote: > The validator would ignore the unsigned CNAME and be left with the DNAME > that matches the QNAME. What would happen to a client that gets a DNAME > that has the owner name that equals the QNAME? (as in: what does the > current validator code do?) > The CNAME is created for clients which do not understand DNAME because they are too old to do so. A DNSSEC resolver should understand DNAME and therefore ignore the CNAME anyway; I don't think this is specified anywhere though that DNAME should be understood by DNSSEC resolvers, only implied because it's assumed DNSSEC =3D=3D modern =3D=3D all in-use RF= Cs implemented. --Michael =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Scott Rose NIST scottr@nist.gov ph: +1 301-975-8439 Google Voice: +1-571-249-3671 http://www.dnsops.gov/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --_000_C742900A951Escottrosenistgov_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME I probably wasn’t clear.  The real question is what does t= he validator do when it gets a DNAME with an owner name equal to the QNAME = (and the QTYPE is not DNAME)?   Right now in dname-bis (and origi= nal spec) it’s <no match> - substitution is not done (Section 2= .2, Table 1).   Ed’s proposed text would make the DNAME act= as a CNAME in that case, which is fine, but would a validating resolver kn= ow to do that?

Scott


On 12/7/09 10:46 AM, "Michael Graff" <mgraff@isc.org> wrote:

Rose, Scott W. wrote:
> The validator would ignore the unsigned CNAME and be left with the DNA= ME
> that matches the QNAME.  What would happen to a client that gets = a DNAME
> that has the owner name that equals the QNAME?  (as in:  wha= t does the
> current validator code do?)
>  

The CNAME is created for clients which do not understand DNAME because
they are too old to do so.  A DNSSEC resolver should understand DNAME<= BR> and therefore ignore the CNAME anyway; I don't think this is specified
anywhere though that DNAME should be understood by DNSSEC resolvers,
only implied because it's assumed DNSSEC =3D=3D modern =3D=3D all in-use RF= Cs
implemented.

--Michael


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Scott Rose
NIST
scottr@nist.gov
ph: +1 301-975-8439
Google Voice: +1-571-249-3671

http://www.dnsops.gov/
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 --_000_C742900A951Escottrosenistgov_-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 7 09:24:59 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B6D53A685A; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 09:24:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.11 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.11 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.216, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4+jXj4F5+R74; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 09:24:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57AAF3A67B1; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 09:24:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHhCj-000C5n-TR for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 07 Dec 2009 17:16:57 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHhCg-000C5P-AD for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Dec 2009 17:16:54 +0000 Received: from [10.31.200.244] (gatt.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.6]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nB7HGR1q012216; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 12:16:27 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 12:16:25 -0500 To: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org" From: Edward Lewis Subject: Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME Cc: "Rose, Scott W." , ed.lewis@neustar.biz Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-951916308==_ma============" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: --============_-951916308==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Answering w/o regard for what's in the specs now (if it is different we can attack that next): Let's look at this response fragment: flags: AA ... question: xn--12345. IN MX answer: [0] xn--12345. 900 IN DNAME tld. [1] xn--12345. 900 IN RRSIG DNAME [2] xn--12345. (?) IN CNAME tld. [3] xn--12345. 1200 IN NSEC 12345. SOA NS DNAME NSEC RRSIG [4] xn--12345. 1200 IN RRSIG NSEC [5] tld. 3600 IN MX 10 server1 [6] tld. 3600 IN MX 20 server2 [7] tld. 3600 IN RRSIG MX Record 0 is the redirection instruction, validated by record 1 and results in the synthesized record 2. Record 3 demonstrates that there is no MX record at the owner name, hence the new rules say "perform the redirection and look there", record 4 validates the rule. Records 5 and 6 are the MX records sought. Record 7 validates them, using the signature of the target's zone. The validator should look at record 1 and use that to validate that there is potentially a redirection to be done and record 4 to see that the redirection is warranted. The redirection rule's validity is from record 1, the applicability is from record 4. Once established that the rule is valid and applicable (germane) then record 7 establishes the validity of the target's data. If the nameserver does not also host tld., then only records 0-4 appear and the first two sentences of the previous paragraph still apply. If there is no MX set at the target (and the server has both zones): [0] xn--12345. 900 IN DNAME tld. [1] xn--12345. 900 IN RRSIG DNAME [2] xn--12345. (?) IN CNAME tld. [3] xn--12345. 1200 IN NSEC 12345. SOA NS DNAME NSEC RRSIG [4] xn--12345. 1200 IN RRSIG NSEC [8] H(tld.) 1200 IN NSEC3 H(*.tld.) SOA NS RRSIG [9] H(tld.) 1200 IN RRSIG NSEC3 (I skipped numbers 5, 6, 7 to reduce confusion with the first example.) Record 8 is an NSEC3 saying that there's no MX at the target's name - with H(tld.) being the hash of the name for NSEC3 purposes. (I didn't look but there should be a NSEC3PARAM in the response somewhere too, right?) If the target does not exist, then record 8 is replaced by something that would trigger an NXDOMAIN error code. At 10:57 -0500 12/7/09, Rose, Scott W. wrote: I probably wasn't clear. The real question is what does the validator do when it gets a DNAME with an owner name equal to the QNAME (and the QTYPE is not DNAME)? Right now in dname-bis (and original spec) it's - substitution is not done (Section 2.2, Table 1). Ed's proposed text would make the DNAME act as a CNAME in that case, which is fine, but would a validating resolver know to do that? Scott On 12/7/09 10:46 AM, "Michael Graff" <<>mgraff@isc.org> wrote: Rose, Scott W. wrote: > The validator would ignore the unsigned CNAME and be left with the DNAME > that matches the QNAME. What would happen to a client that gets a DNAME > that has the owner name that equals the QNAME? (as in: what does the > current validator code do?) > The CNAME is created for clients which do not understand DNAME because they are too old to do so. A DNSSEC resolver should understand DNAME and therefore ignore the CNAME anyway; I don't think this is specified anywhere though that DNAME should be understood by DNSSEC resolvers, only implied because it's assumed DNSSEC == modern == all in-use RFCs implemented. --Michael =================================== Scott Rose NIST <>scottr@nist.gov ph: +1 301-975-8439 Google Voice: +1-571-249-3671 http://www.dnsops.gov/ =================================== -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis NeuStar You can leave a voice message at +1-571-434-5468 As with IPv6, the problem with the deployment of frictionless surfaces is that they're not getting traction. --============_-951916308==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME
Answering w/o regard for what's in the specs now (if it is different we can attack that next):

Let's look at this response fragment:

flags: AA ...

question:

xn--12345. IN MX

answer:

[0] xn--12345.  900 IN   DNAME    tld.
[1] xn--12345.  900 IN   RRSIG    DNAME
[2] xn--12345.  (?) IN   CNAME    tld.
[3] xn--12345. 1200 IN   NSEC     12345. SOA NS DNAME NSEC RRSIG
[4] xn--12345. 1200 IN   RRSIG    NSEC
[5] tld.       3600 IN   MX       10 server1
[6] tld.       3600 IN   MX       20 server2
[7] tld.       3600 IN   RRSIG    MX

Record 0 is the redirection instruction, validated by record 1 and results in the synthesized record 2.

Record 3 demonstrates that there is no MX record at the owner name, hence the new rules say "perform the redirection and look there", record 4 validates the rule.

Records 5 and 6 are the MX records sought.  Record 7 validates them, using the signature of the target's zone.

The validator should look at record 1 and use that to validate that there is potentially a redirection to be done and record 4 to see that the redirection is warranted.  The redirection rule's validity is from record 1, the applicability is from record 4.  Once established that the rule is valid and applicable (germane) then record 7 establishes the validity of the target's data.

If the nameserver does not also host tld., then only records 0-4 appear and the first two sentences of the previous paragraph still apply.

If there is no MX set at the target (and the server has both zones):

[0] xn--12345.  900 IN   DNAME    tld.
[1] xn--12345.  900 IN   RRSIG    DNAME
[2] xn--12345.  (?) IN   CNAME    tld.
[3] xn--12345. 1200 IN   NSEC     12345. SOA NS DNAME NSEC RRSIG
[4] xn--12345. 1200 IN   RRSIG    NSEC
[8] H(tld.)    1200 IN   NSEC3    H(*.tld.) SOA NS RRSIG
[9] H(tld.)    1200 IN   RRSIG    NSEC3

(I skipped numbers 5, 6, 7 to reduce confusion with the first example.)

Record 8 is an NSEC3 saying that there's no MX at the target's name - with H(tld.) being the hash of the name for NSEC3 purposes.  (I didn't look but there should be a NSEC3PARAM in the response somewhere too, right?)

If the target does not exist, then record 8 is replaced by something that would trigger an NXDOMAIN error code.

At 10:57 -0500 12/7/09, Rose, Scott W. wrote:
I probably wasn=B9t clear.  The real question is what does the validator do when it gets a DNAME with an owner name equal to the QNAME (and the QTYPE is not DNAME)?   Right now in dname-bis (and original spec) it=B9s <no match> - substitution is not done (Section 2.2, Table 1).   Ed=B9s proposed text would make the DNAME act as a CNAME in that case, which is fine, but would a validating resolver know to do that?

Scott


On 12/7/09 10:46 AM, "Michael Graff" <mgraff@isc.org> wrote:
Rose, Scott W. wrote:
> The validator would ignore the unsigned CNAME and be left with the DNAME
> that matches the QNAME.  What would happen to a client that gets a DNAME
> that has the owner name that equals the QNAME?  (as in:  what does the
> current validator code do?)
>  

The CNAME is created for clients which do not understand DNAME because
they are too old to do so.  A DNSSEC resolver should understand DNAME
and therefore ignore the CNAME anyway; I don't think this is specified
anywhere though that DNAME should be understood by DNSSEC resolvers,
only implied because it's assumed DNSSEC =3D=3D modern =3D=3D all in-use RFCs
implemented.

--Michael

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Scott Rose
NIST
scottr@nist.gov
ph: +1 301-975-8439
Google Voice: +1-571-249-3671

http://www.dnsops.gov/
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D


--
-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-= =3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-
Edward Lewis             
NeuStar                    You can leave a voice message at +1-571-434-5468

As with IPv6, the problem with the deployment of frictionless surfaces is
that they're not getting traction.
--============_-951916308==_ma============-- From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Mon Dec 7 09:57:44 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 776E93A685B for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 09:57:44 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From:VIAGRA \256 Pfizer Inc.; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 09:57:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from 27-121-132-95.pool.ukrtel.net (27-121-132-95.pool.ukrtel.net [95.132.121.27]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 3084D3A6A97 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 09:57:36 -0800 (PST) From:VIAGRA ® Pfizer Inc. To:dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject:Dear dnsext-archive@ietf.org 75% OFF on Pfizer. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091207175737.3084D3A6A97@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 09:57:36 -0800 (PST) Dear dnsext-archive@ietf.org
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 7 12:28:57 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42F023A698C; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 12:28:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.175 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.175 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.075, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HELO_MISMATCH_DE=1.448, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ovu-EC8-y2sN; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 12:28:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3739A3A691C; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 12:28:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHk4r-00043d-QR for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 07 Dec 2009 20:21:01 +0000 Received: from [213.178.172.147] (helo=TR-Sys.de) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHk4p-00042G-GN for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Dec 2009 20:21:00 +0000 Received: from ZEUS.TR-Sys.de by w. with ESMTP ($Revision: 1.37.109.26 $/16.3.2) id AA281827192; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 21:19:52 +0100 Received: (from ah@localhost) by z.TR-Sys.de (8.9.3 (PHNE_25183)/8.7.3) id VAA01473; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 21:19:46 +0100 (MEZ) From: Alfred =?hp-roman8?B?SM5uZXM=?= Message-Id: <200912072019.VAA01473@TR-Sys.de> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME To: Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 21:19:46 +0100 (MEZ) Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org X-Mailer: ELM [$Revision: 1.17.214.3 $] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=hp-roman8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Edward and all, the whole discussion on this thread seems to miss the most important implication from an application and consistency point of view, and please also note that the anchor posting for this thread dealt with alias domain names in the _second_ level (inside a TLD), not in the root zone. The situation is a bit different in the second level since it is much more likely that such domains (if the parent is "registry-like") shall serve applications at their apex name. I.e., for tld is much more likely to be hosted at say, "tld-nic.tld." than at "tld." directly, whereas such service for example.tld is likely present at "example.tld." directly. (Some specifications and practices even _forbid_ services at single-label FQDNs.) Some application protocols require (for various reasons not subject to debate on this list) that the domain names appearing in their 'reality' resolve _directly_ to the proper resource records for the application, and they explicitly forbid redirection by CNAME or DNAME during the resolution process. The most important and well-known example is [E]SMTP. Assume xn--12345.tld. DNAME example.tld. , and assume mail for the mailbox JoeT@xn--12345.tld . An MTA that has to deliver such mail must perform an MX lookup for the rhs domain name in the mailbox name, xn--12345.tld. Whenever the MX lookup does not find an MX RR at the alias domain name because these RRs are maintained in the 'primary' zone "example.tld." and hence returns a DNAME and/or a synthesized CNAME, the [E]SMTP mail address resolution process immediately falls back to 'address' record DNS lookup, i.e., it tries A and/or AAAA lookup at the same owner name. This way, you loose the flexibility, resilience, and load balancing properties of MX. If there is/are such address records at the owner name of the DNAME RR as well, and there is indeed an ESMTP server listening on TCP port 25 there, the fallback will succeed. But you need to have the address record in the .tld. zone for this success, and there could be different A/AAAA RRs at the target domain of the DNAME; so a lookup for the 'primary' domain name in the 'alias' group might return a different result, leading to another mail server. This way, the content of the primary domain and its alias domain(s) are not guaranteed to be identical. Similarly, MX RRs indeed present at the owner name of the DNAME would run the risk of becoming inconsistent with the MX RRs at the DNAME target. But if that's possible, by definition the domains are not identical and hence the domain names are not proper "aliases". This consistency problem is the basic logical issue with domain aliases in "registry-like" domains (e.g. TLDs and, to a lesser extent, the root), where the zone servers and operators of the child zone and the parent zone are most likely different and synchronization of more than just delegation information and glue at the parent with the child zone poses new operational and responsibility challenges. The only means *at a protocol level* to address this issue in a hypothetical XNAME RR would be to have the server of the zone containing the XNAME to operate as a recursive resolver for exactly one step when encountering an XNAME RR and answer with the authoritative data from the target zone. But that would cause much more complications for DNSSEC and would not be tolerable from an operational PoV. Kind regards, Alfred. -- +------------------------+--------------------------------------------+ | TR-Sys Alfred Hoenes | Alfred Hoenes Dipl.-Math., Dipl.-Phys. | | Gerlinger Strasse 12 | Phone: (+49)7156/9635-0, Fax: -18 | | D-71254 Ditzingen | E-Mail: ah@TR-Sys.de | +------------------------+--------------------------------------------+ From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 7 15:24:58 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95A8B3A69D6; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 15:24:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q8tSQ3mavyvx; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 15:24:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E99A3A699E; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 15:24:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHmpm-000Ian-MP for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 07 Dec 2009 23:17:38 +0000 Received: from [129.9.40.25] (helo=odbmap01.extra.chrysler.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHmpl-000Iab-Om for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Dec 2009 23:17:37 +0000 Received: from odbmap04.oddc.chrysler.com (Unknown_Domain [53.28.32.58]) by odbmap01.extra.chrysler.com (Symantec Brightmail Gateway) with SMTP id 2F.0A.04910.01D8D1B4; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 18:17:36 -0500 (EST) X-AuditID: 81092818-b7cd2ae00000132e-37-4b1d8d10cd65 Received: from wokcdts1.is.chrysler.com (wokcdts1.is.chrysler.com [53.230.99.84]) by odbmap04.oddc.chrysler.com (Symantec Brightmail Gateway) with SMTP id DB.02.04127.01D8D1B4; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 18:17:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wokcdts1.is.chrysler.com (8.13.6/8.9.1) with ESMTP id nB7NHaPj029760 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 18:17:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B1D8D10.9060208@chrysler.com> Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 18:17:36 -0500 From: Kevin Darcy User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20070802) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME References: <200912072019.VAA01473@TR-Sys.de> In-Reply-To: <200912072019.VAA01473@TR-Sys.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Alfred ? wrote: > The most important and well-known example is [E]SMTP. > > Assume xn--12345.tld. DNAME example.tld. , > and assume mail for the mailbox JoeT@xn--12345.tld . > An MTA that has to deliver such mail must perform an MX lookup > for the rhs domain name in the mailbox name, xn--12345.tld. > Whenever the MX lookup does not find an MX RR at the alias > domain name because these RRs are maintained in the 'primary' > zone "example.tld." and hence returns a DNAME and/or a > synthesized CNAME, the [E]SMTP mail address resolution process > immediately falls back to 'address' record DNS lookup, i.e., > it tries A and/or AAAA lookup at the same owner name. > This way, you loose the flexibility, resilience, and load > balancing properties of MX. > > Alfred, Are you sure about that? RFC 5321 (Section 5, second paragraph) says The lookup first attempts to locate an MX record associated with the name. If a CNAME record is found, the resulting name is processed as if it were the initial name. To me, this describes a "query restart". With the above in mind, in your example, after getting the synthesized CNAME, the SMTP client's next step would be to query example.tld/MX, -not- to fail over to a xn--12345.tld/A and/or xn--12345.tld/AAAA query. The benefits of MX records are thus preserved. We don't see this in normal operation, of course, since resolvers will "chase" the CNAME and return the MX record(s) regardless. But in the pathological case where only a bare CNAME is returned, the above language suggests that the SMTP client should take on the responsibility of doing the "chasing" itself. Alternatively, from a more conservative SMTP perspective, an "un-chased CNAME" response could be considered a resolver error, similar to a resolver timeout or a SERVFAIL. This would be a temporary error condition, so the SMTP client would queue and retry, hoping that the resolver will, at some point in the future, recover from its malady and regain the ability to chase CNAMEs. Passing thought: perhaps someone should let the SMTP folks know about DNAME, since there is no mention of it in RFC 5321, and thus handling of a DNAME response remains undefined. - Kevin From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Mon Dec 7 15:34:28 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47D7D3A69B1 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 15:34:28 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: Pfizer \256 Customer Servi[...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -62.502 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-62.502 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DYNAMIC=1.144, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dHCSyiqi8rJL for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 15:34:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from 189-041-86-095.xd-dynamic.ctbcnetsuper.com.br (189-041-93-153.xd-dynamic.ctbcnetsuper.com.br [189.41.93.153]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA1883A69AA for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 15:34:20 -0800 (PST) From: Pfizer ® Customer Service To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Special offer dnsext-archive@ietf.org receive 70% OFF on Pfizer. 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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Mon Dec 7 15:34:36 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E92BC3A69B8 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 15:34:36 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: Pfizer \256 Customer Servi[...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -42.502 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-42.502 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DYNAMIC=1.144, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lWFJBtYepz7h for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 15:34:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from 189-041-86-095.xd-dynamic.ctbcnetsuper.com.br (189-041-93-153.xd-dynamic.ctbcnetsuper.com.br [189.41.93.153]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFB793A69AA for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 15:34:28 -0800 (PST) From: Pfizer ® Customer Service To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Special offer dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org receive 70% OFF on Pfizer. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091207233428.EFB793A69AA@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 15:34:28 -0800 (PST) Pfizer ® 80% OFF
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 7 15:49:59 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F7693A6AA4; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 15:49:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.165 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.165 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.435, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 91-V1vM1dFUz; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 15:49:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BF613A69B3; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 15:49:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHnGG-000KYN-Mo for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 07 Dec 2009 23:45:00 +0000 Received: from [2001:1890:1112:1::20] (helo=mail.ietf.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHnG9-000KWh-M3 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Dec 2009 23:44:53 +0000 Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 1764C3A693D; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 15:45:02 -0800 (PST) From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-12.txt Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20091207234502.1764C3A693D@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 15:45:02 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the DNS Extensions Working Group of the IETF. Title : DNS Zone Transfer Protocol (AXFR) Author(s) : E. Lewis, A. Hoenes Filename : draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-12.txt Pages : 28 Date : 2009-12-6 The Domain Name System standard mechanisms for maintaining coherent servers for a zone consist of three elements. One mechanism is the Authoritative Transfer (AXFR) defined in RFC 1034 and RFC 1035. The definition of AXFR has proven insufficient in detail, thereby forcing implementations intended to be compliant to make assumptions, impeding interoperability. Yet today we have a satisfactory set of implementations that do interoperate. This document is a new definition of AXFR -- new in the sense that is it recording an accurate definition of an interoperable AXFR mechanism. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-12.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-12.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2009-12-7153642.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 7 17:08:06 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CADD28C1A6; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 17:08:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.218 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.218 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.032, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HELO_MISMATCH_DE=1.448, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T61KniFJpxql; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 17:08:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58C4F28C18F; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 17:08:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHoSO-0001oA-Sa for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 01:01:36 +0000 Received: from [213.178.172.147] (helo=TR-Sys.de) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHoSK-0001nh-7l for Namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 01:01:33 +0000 Received: from ZEUS.TR-Sys.de by w. with ESMTP ($Revision: 1.37.109.26 $/16.3.2) id AA282874025; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 02:00:25 +0100 Received: (from ah@localhost) by z.TR-Sys.de (8.9.3 (PHNE_25183)/8.7.3) id CAA02168; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 02:00:24 +0100 (MEZ) From: Alfred =?hp-roman8?B?SM5uZXM=?= Message-Id: <200912080100.CAA02168@TR-Sys.de> Subject: Re: [dnsext] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-12.txt To: Namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 02:00:24 +0100 (MEZ) X-Mailer: ELM [$Revision: 1.17.214.3 $] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=hp-roman8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: At Mon, 7 Dec 2009 15:45:02 -0800 (PST), internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > This draft is a work item of the DNS Extensions Working Group of the IETF. > > Title : DNS Zone Transfer Protocol (AXFR) > Author(s) : E. Lewis, A. Hoenes > Filename : draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-12.txt > Pages : 28 > Date : 2009-12-6 > > The Domain Name System standard mechanisms for maintaining coherent > servers for a zone consist of three elements. One mechanism is the > Authoritative Transfer (AXFR) defined in RFC 1034 and RFC 1035. > The definition of AXFR has proven insufficient in detail, thereby > forcing implementations intended to be compliant to make assumptions, > impeding interoperability. Yet today we have a satisfactory set of > implementations that do interoperate. This document is a new > definition of AXFR -- new in the sense that is it recording an > accurate definition of an interoperable AXFR mechanism. > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-12.txt > > ... This draft version has been prepared to make the document ready for WGLC. Details are listed below. Alfred. Edit log for draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-11 --> -12 ======================================================== Main topics of edits since -11 draft version: - addressed editorial nits from Alfred's message (April 1, 2009) to namedroppers (cf. Ed Lewis' response on namedroppers of April 2) - addressed Andrew's WG chair review comments, including idnits results (May 27 and May 29, 2009) - improved adherence to I-D Guidelines and RFC style guide - adopted capitalization of RCODE values from IANA registry - added Alfred as document editor In detail (excluding nits): General: - updated draft version, publication and expiry dates - added pre-5378 boilerplate text, Abstract now first - added pagination using standard page header and footer patterns - reformatted all text to indentation stepwidth 3 and 72 column format - reformatted section headings to adhere to RFC styleguide - modified numbering scheme for Notes to better match RFC styleguide - added Table of Contents - capitalized DNS message section names for clarity and better distinguishing them from plain English words ("Additional", etc.) - made terminology consistent with RFC 1035: Query -> Question section Sections 1, 1.1, 1.2 - added 'management level' statement of goal of the memo to Sect.1 (new 2nd para) and link to "Updates" clause in the front matter - moved feedback editorial remark to behind Authors Addresses, adding RFC Editor note to it - wordsmithing in 2nd para of 1.1 to avoid dangling initial capitalization conflict - moved definition of "General purpose DNS implementation" and "Turnkey DNS implementation" from mid-section 1.2 to end of 1.1 - reworked 1st para in 1.1 based on WG chair comments, avoiding unnecessary text repetition - wordsmithing of last para of 1.2 to avoid normative language, and delete "editorial note to readers" (as per WG chair review) Sections 1.3 and 1.4 - wordsmithing of 1.3 to avoid allusion of IXFR / NOTIFY coverage (as per WG chair review); however, left para in text because it makes comprehensive note of a change in paradigm important for many folks (including IESG?) that would otherwise be somehow hidden in the bulk of the text - same for 1st para of 1.4 - break xxl sentence apart in last para of 1.4 Section 2 - updated informative ref for rsa-sha2 draft to RFC 5702 - changed ref tag for dnssec-bis-updates draft - integrated single remaining ref to an I-D with the list of RFCs updating the DNS message format, and wordsmithed the paragraph below this list to reflect this change and reduce perceived allusion of normative references - split list of documents into two, for Basic DNS and DNSSEC; this should give better guidance to the reader, and it allows to get rid of the DNSSEC document list in 2.2.2 that would have needed to be indented with the enclosing Note, causing very unpleasant line folding - added reproduction of DNS message header synopsis from RFC 5395 as a convenience for the reader, and because the text already said that the memo makes use of the field names therein; rephrased the surrounding text to accommodate the addition - added a sentence on UDP message size (and EDNS0, giving it a ref) pointing to Section 4 to make the penultimate para appear less OOTB; simplified trailing sentence on EDNS0 irrelavance for TCP Section 2.1 Section 2.1.1 - structured Header values table, added more informative text to quickly inform the reader - in Note a) : added xrefs to sections 4 and 2.2.2 - introduced mnemonic 'n/a' and 'mbz' shorthands for better guidance of readers Section 2.1.2 - added "a single RR" to justify QDCOUNT=1 Sections 2.1.3 and 2.1.4 - language improvement (WG chair comments) Section 2.1.5 - wordsmithed 1st para to address WG chair comments - same for 2nd para, but escaped to reducing use of "ought to" - wordsmithed 3rd para to address WG chair comments Section 2.2 - made explicit the alternative for subsequent response messages to contain an empty Question section (end of 2nd para) - 3rd & 4th para clarified as per msg exchange Apr 1/2, 2009 - simplified text in 3rd para a bit to avoid over-use of "MUST" - whole section is written from the perspective of the server; therefore last para re-written in that vein Section 2.2.2 - added intro sentence similar to 2.1.1 - structured Header values table, added more informative text to quickly inform the reader (as in 2.1.1) Section 2.2.3 - language improvement (WG chair comments) - case of error message spelled out once again for completeness - open issue: "MAY" in the 5th line: contradicts FR RFC ! Section 2.2.6 - some wordsmithing for clarity, and to avoid word repetition Section 3 - added clarification regarding "continually regenerated" DNS database, as requested by WG chair review Section 3.1 - refer to "zone" (in singular form) in last para Section 3.2 - simplified wording on DNSSEC RRs - typos corrected in 3rd & 4th "Informally:" bullet - in response to WG Chair review wrt DNSSEC related history: The intent is to point the reader to the (sometimes confusing) fact that RFC 2181 (still valid and important in other parts) is entirely outdated with respect to DNSSEC. RFC 2181 is neither Obsoleted nor Historic. This argument would perhaps become moot by the event of a 2181bis! New text: "... which parts of RFC 2181 now in fact are historical." - in response to WG Chair concerns: expanded repeated verbiage like "authoritative part of the zone" to "part of the authoritative data of the zone" and similar - in response to WG Chair concerns: the description of two scenarios for inconsistent delegation points has been slightly reworded, but left in the draft to provide background information for the recovery strategy specified subsequently, giving the reader the opportunity to verify that the outcome of that specification for such scenarios is resaonable (contrary to some opinions raised during the discussion calling for a self-fixing mechanism for inconsistencies in zone data to be built into the AXFR protocol). - 2nd-to-last para: "also" conflict resolved using "as well" instead Section 3.3 Section 3.4 Section 4 - wordsmithing of 2nd and 3rd para to address WG Chair concerns, split long sentence - 4th para: rewritten for the same concerns - last para: moved to 4.2 Section 4.1 - clarified language in 1st para to address WG Chair concerns - clarified language in 2nd para (per msg exchange Apr 1/2, 2009); changed "given here" to "given below" to address WG Chair concerns Section 4.1.1 - improved wording in 3rd para (per msg exchange Apr 1/2, 2009) - 2nd para: MAY seemed to be too strong; the sentence describes the only possibility for last resort; so changed to "can" - clarified 3rd para (per msg exchange Apr 1/2, 2009) Section 4.1.2 - small language improvement for clarification in 1st para Section 4.2 - moved clause regarding "future perspective" of AXFR over UDP from 4. into this section and text adapted to accommodate the move Section 5 - rephrased second part of 1st para to accomodate WG chair comments Section 6 - expanded "not in" to "not present in" for clarity, near the end of the 2nd para Section 7 - typos corrected - expanded "the earlier sections" to "the relevant earlier sections" near the end of the 1st para - 2nd para (WG Chair review concern): "turnkey implementations" is ok; the definition of this term now has been moved into 1.1 (see above) - wording improved in last para (per WG chair comments), yet avoided immediate word repetition Section 7.1 - wording improved in 1st para (per WG chair comments) - addressed WG chair comments for 2nd para, using "necessity" - lost words restored from backup (at end of section) Section 9 - added RFC-Ed note Section 10 - regarding IDNA documents: proactively added "or its successor(s)" Section 11 - acknowledgments updated Section 12 - reworded 1st sentence to cover the kept [BCP14] ref. as well Sections 12.1/2 - RFC 2119 promoted to Normative - updated I-D refs (RFC 5702 published), promoted to Normative - collation order by ascending RFC number restored - on behalf of RFC 5395, IANA has outdated the DNS Header Flags registry [DNSFLGS] and encorporated it into the DNS Parameters registry [DNSVALS]; hence unified references to IANA - demoted IANA ref. to Informative Open issue: The bulk of documents listed in Section 2 are not needed in other parts of the memo; this bulk ok Normative Refs seems to be excessive; should these be demoted to Informative? [] From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 7 17:10:12 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2C613A687C; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 17:10:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.258 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.258 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.992, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HELO_MISMATCH_DE=1.448, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YeK5Xd4leDGn; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 17:10:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 511CE3A6839; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 17:10:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHoX2-0002Gj-Pt for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 01:06:24 +0000 Received: from [213.178.172.147] (helo=TR-Sys.de) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHoX0-0002GJ-0P for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 01:06:22 +0000 Received: from ZEUS.TR-Sys.de by w. with ESMTP ($Revision: 1.37.109.26 $/16.3.2) id AA282934320; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 02:05:21 +0100 Received: (from ah@localhost) by z.TR-Sys.de (8.9.3 (PHNE_25183)/8.7.3) id CAA02187; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 02:05:20 +0100 (MEZ) From: Alfred =?hp-roman8?B?SM5uZXM=?= Message-Id: <200912080105.CAA02187@TR-Sys.de> Subject: Re: [dnsext] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-12.txt To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 02:05:19 +0100 (MEZ) References: <200912080100.CAA02168@TR-Sys.de> X-Mailer: ELM [$Revision: 1.17.214.3 $] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=hp-roman8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: In the previous messsage, a minor open issue for axfr-clarify-12 has been noted: > Open issue: > The bulk of documents listed in Section 2 are not needed in other > parts of the memo; this bulk ok Normative Refs seems to be > excessive; should these be demoted to Informative? Here is my personal view: Opinions in the IESG largely diverge; there are 15 experts on Normative vs. Informative but only a few DNS experts; so maybe granting the IESG a few DISCUSSes on this detail will help them adding their 2 ct. to the document without more significantly impacting the document progress. :-) Alfred. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 7 17:48:53 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E83128C0ED; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 17:48:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QaTRZuJN3sA1; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 17:48:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 164AE3A6359; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 17:48:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHp7H-0005S7-5w for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 01:43:51 +0000 Received: from [168.61.5.27] (helo=harry.mail-abuse.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHp7C-0005Rq-J6 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 01:43:46 +0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (gateway1.sjc.mail-abuse.org [168.61.5.81]) by harry.mail-abuse.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18CE5A9443B; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 01:43:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [dnsext] Question on EDNS MTU... Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Douglas Otis In-Reply-To: <27158.1259946981@nsa.vix.com> Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 17:43:45 -0800 Cc: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org WG" , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Michael_T=FCxen?= , William Allen Simpson Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <232E6739-9C8B-41B5-AA7C-3D607E8F4A66@mail-abuse.org> References: <4F28ABE8-76BF-4073-8E9B-840784D5C83B@hopcount.ca> <8C0C26CA-4D43-472E-B166-B53841DEB37F@hopcount.ca> <20091204150953.GA8919@vacation.karoshi.com.> <4AED04A3-47EC-4CBF-A069-2962F4EB9F8A@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <27158.1259946981@nsa.vix.com> To: Paul Vixie X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Dec 4, 2009, at 9:16 AM, Paul Vixie wrote: >> From: Nicholas Weaver >> Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 07:12:58 -0800 >>=20 >>> hence the argument for 1220... 1280 should be specified as the desired PMTU instead. >> Even then the argument doesn't make sense. It only makes sense to = have the EDNS MTU be small enough to avoid fragmentation if >>=20 >> a) The network can't handle fragmentation at ALL >> or >> b) The stateholding requirements for fragmentation are WORSE than the = stateholding requirements for TCP. >>=20 >> a the resolver can discover for itself and memoize. >>=20 >> b doesn't seem to make sense. >=20 > +1. >=20 > new recommended reading on this topic: >=20 > "Improving TCP Security with Robust Cookies by Perry Metzger, William = Allen Simpson, and Paul Vixie" >=20 > = Paul, Thanks for posting the link. I will be waiting for William Simpson's = I-D.=20 This paper alludes to deployment issues for SCTP, but then references = draft-karn-photuris-01.txt, which is not about these issues. IMHO, SCTP = deployment issues can be avoided with reasonable practices and avoiding = multi-homing in some cases. The TCPCT paper also suggests the SCTP's = cookie exchange represents an amplification attack concern, which again = alludes to multi-homing extremes. In practice, there are many exchanges = having greater amplifications, where this concern seems unwarranted, = especially when compared to EDNS0/UDP typical DNSSEC exchanges. With = respect to new transport concerns, SCTP can also be carried over UDP. I talked to Joe Touch about TCP's deplorable undetected error rate for = bit specific errors (~2%). Joe's response was that TCP is not = responsible for detecting these types of errors, although they are = common and are beyond the control of Internet users. While = yet-another-option could also bolster TCP's inadequate checksum = algorithm, but it took SCTP nearly 7 years to obtain hardware support = for the superior error detection algorithm, which is offered as an = option in iSCSI. When error detection boundaries do not correspond with = acknowledgement boundaries, the connection state gets ugly.=20 I also assume TCPCT will not offer a different transport designation = with which to differentiate clients. Simultaneous support of TCP and = TCPCT will incur the same TCP TIME-WAIT constraints needed to avoid = duplicate segment (data or ACKs) from arriving in TCP SYN-SENT state. = One would then assume TCP will be ignored beyond some level of resource = consumption. IMHO, progress is not well served by adding another option to TCP, = rather than promoting a fully engineered solution that is better at = retaining data integrity and framing, while also ensuring the state of = the transaction remains known. Rapidly discarding TCP connections to = limit TCP related state during packet loss may lead to instability and = collapse. Perhaps Java will soon support SCTP, where Google-like = approaches to DNS could be well served with SCTP as the transport. Keep = in mind, the CPE equipment declared as problematic for SCTP, is creating = similar problems for DNS over TCP. A solution needling less resources = more suitable for CPE equipment could be obtained by using unordered, = unreliable SCTP. -Doug =20 From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 7 17:58:54 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A3583A691D; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 17:58:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.295 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.295 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.955, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HELO_MISMATCH_DE=1.448, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b2tTChoGOBLq; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 17:58:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 205FC3A67CF; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 17:58:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHpHN-0006Vw-9h for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 01:54:17 +0000 Received: from [213.178.172.147] (helo=TR-Sys.de) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHpHL-0006Vh-9D for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 01:54:16 +0000 Received: from ZEUS.TR-Sys.de by w. with ESMTP ($Revision: 1.37.109.26 $/16.3.2) id AA283127193; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 02:53:13 +0100 Received: (from ah@localhost) by z.TR-Sys.de (8.9.3 (PHNE_25183)/8.7.3) id CAA02286; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 02:53:12 +0100 (MEZ) From: Alfred =?hp-roman8?B?SM5uZXM=?= Message-Id: <200912080153.CAA02286@TR-Sys.de> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME To: kcd@chrysler.com Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 02:53:12 +0100 (MEZ) Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org X-Mailer: ELM [$Revision: 1.17.214.3 $] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=hp-roman8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Kevin, you are right; I have been too hastily; the restriction on non-CNAME in [E]SMTP does _not_ apply to the primary email addresses, but to - the domain names returned by MX RRs (see RFC 5321, Section 5.1, page 69), and to - domain names given in the EHLO command (see RFC 5321, Section 2.3.5, bottom of page 13). RFC 5321 points to RFC 1035 and RFC 2181, Section 10.3 for these purposes. RFC 5321 does not update these RFCs. However, for MX, RFC 1035 normatively refers to RFC 974, which has been obsoleted by RFC 2821, which has been obsoleted by RFC 5321 ... :-) Regarding lack of DNAME discussion in RFC 5321: That was out of scope for the effort for RFC 5321 that only had been allowed to perform "clarifications" to RFC 2821 and not impose "new" requirements. IIRC, when the effort for RFC 5321 started, the "rehabilitation" of DNAME (now performed by draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2672bis-dname, Sect. 4) was not yet known to the IESG; the wisdom at that time was that DNAME had been 'banned' together with A6 (per RFCs 3363/3364). If you would like to have DNAME considerations in 5321bis, feel free to contact the YAM WG that currently works on an evaluation document for the IESG in order to get a sign-off for some changes the IESG might admit for a Full Standard successor to RFC 5321 -- or ask the chairs to do that 'officially'. But please keep in mind: It might be advisable to personally contact and convince many IESG members of the necessity to change even less significant details. :-( Beware that the politically correct form of examples, the trouble with normative downrefs (since not all related documents already are at Draft Standards level), and similar deep issues are of much greater interest to the current IESG, because there are more experts for such questions there than for the protocol itself. :-) Kind regards, Alfred. -- +------------------------+--------------------------------------------+ | TR-Sys Alfred Hoenes | Alfred Hoenes Dipl.-Math., Dipl.-Phys. | | Gerlinger Strasse 12 | Phone: (+49)7156/9635-0, Fax: -18 | | D-71254 Ditzingen | E-Mail: ah@TR-Sys.de | +------------------------+--------------------------------------------+ From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Mon Dec 7 19:45:21 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87D703A68A7 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 19:45:21 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: <5T5UpRQWESK1> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Online Shop ; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 19:45:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from host-89-228-129-126.gorzow.mm.pl (host-89-228-129-126.gorzow.mm.pl [89.228.129.126]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DBC83A67CF for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 19:45:14 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Online Shop To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Valued customer dnsext-archive@ietf.org 80% OFF on Pfizer. 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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Mon Dec 7 19:45:36 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95ECB3A6806 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 19:45:36 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Online Shop ; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 19:45:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from host-89-228-129-126.gorzow.mm.pl (host-89-228-129-126.gorzow.mm.pl [89.228.129.126]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35D3B3A681E for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 19:45:28 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Online Shop To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Valued customer dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org 80% OFF on Pfizer. Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20091208034529.35D3B3A681E@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 19:45:28 -0800 (PST) Newsletter
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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Mon Dec 7 22:44:32 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A68913A6984 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 22:44:32 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Reseller ; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 22:44:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from 89-125-78-133.dhcp-ripwave.irishbroadband.ie (89-125-59-53.dhcp-ripwave.irishbroadband.ie [89.125.59.53]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D61E03A6885 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 22:44:23 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Reseller To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Dear dnsext-archive@ietf.org receive 80% OFF on Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091208064423.D61E03A6885@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 22:44:23 -0800 (PST) Pfizer ® Newsletter
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 7 23:58:28 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06C943A67F8; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 23:58:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.533 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.533 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.096, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29NxPNUPbv3F; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 23:58:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E43EE3A6885; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 23:58:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHuoR-000C5J-Q7 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 07:48:47 +0000 Received: from [208.69.177.116] (helo=ns1.qubic.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHuoO-000C4t-1y for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 07:48:44 +0000 Received: from subman.resistor.net ([10.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by ns1.qubic.net (8.14.4.Beta0/8.14.4.Beta0) with ESMTP id nB87mWxg002227 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 7 Dec 2009 23:48:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1260258521; x=1260344921; bh=N+mgktSTWnHiPjqjzYL0heFNIRCJaYffQb2QpELy7lw=; h=Message-Id:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References: Mime-Version:Content-Type:Cc; b=WpJwvNK4ajKYKw4ibr/4nu6Cmp3qLZOIDrMMN0M7z4IDzL9zan5MvQAI5rxlJZQxK +BIYZ4CxY81oaFDFPaYZSn9YN0apItp60UV6ipbEBLf1FQgzgu9KBe7z2yUqbEkRYM 3Rh0uMmCNyzPqa4dO9cGdwFPUW7bM1tuo/TeU6WI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=mail; d=resistor.net; c=simple; q=dns; b=GJaPGe05ZrLAehlvahreVQCM4qOTNzI+TOAos5AyGFfmlzWlEGjcmEYDqHmcU/6Uw 5Z5YkHa4a9xfAe40yIMA0asYmUO2pVJUJ8SE7DfVSGzwmH7iFl8fcXv27TyYtQD74wN /H4LxBZBFKHh8APZnQ4HtMwSO74kF0MeBH20FRU= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20091207232836.031eff48@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 23:48:21 -0800 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: SM Subject: Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME In-Reply-To: <4B1D8D10.9060208@chrysler.com> References: <200912072019.VAA01473@TR-Sys.de> <4B1D8D10.9060208@chrysler.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: At 15:17 07-12-2009, Kevin Darcy wrote: >Passing thought: perhaps someone should let the SMTP folks know >about DNAME, since there is no mention of it in RFC 5321, and thus >handling of a DNAME response remains undefined. Please suggest text if you want to change that. At 17:53 07-12-2009, Alfred =?hp-roman8?B?SM5uZXM=?= wrote: >RFC 5321 points to RFC 1035 and RFC 2181, Section 10.3 for these >purposes. RFC 5321 does not update these RFCs. However, for MX, >RFC 1035 normatively refers to RFC 974, which has been obsoleted >by RFC 2821, which has been obsoleted by RFC 5321 ... :-) RFC 5321 specifies how to locate the target host. :-) >If you would like to have DNAME considerations in 5321bis, feel free >to contact the YAM WG that currently works on an evaluation document >for the IESG in order to get a sign-off for some changes the IESG >might admit for a Full Standard successor to RFC 5321 -- or ask the Such a change would have to be considered now if you want it to go in the pre-evaluation I-D. Regards, -sm From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 8 04:04:31 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E8DA28C11C; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 04:04:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.048 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.048 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sTTN4pfxrE3a; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 04:04:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9CEC3A69DE; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 04:04:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHyg8-0007DO-16 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 11:56:28 +0000 Received: from [193.1.169.37] (helo=cali.ucd.ie) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHyg5-0007Cy-9b for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 11:56:25 +0000 Received: from conversion-daemon.cali.ucd.ie by cali.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.03 (built Sep 22 2005)) id <0KUC00M0112S2S00@cali.ucd.ie> (original mail from Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie) for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 11:56:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.0.1.177] (bark.no8.be [83.141.81.52]) by cali.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.03 (built Sep 22 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0KUC004WX15AR300@cali.ucd.ie>; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 11:56:22 +0000 (GMT) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 11:55:57 +0000 From: Niall O'Reilly Subject: Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME In-reply-to: To: Edward Lewis , vixie@isc.org Cc: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org" , Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie, Vaggelis Segredakis , 'Sotiris Panaretou' Message-id: <4B1E3ECD.4050706@ucd.ie> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Apologies to all if I'm just repeating the obvious. On Mon, 07 Dec 2009 10:23:33 -0500, Edward Lewis wrote: > Answering w/o regard for what's in the specs now (if it is different we > can attack that next): Ed, you seem to be suggesting a way to avoid writing up xNAME by simply extending the specification of DNAME. This seems a neat procedural short cut. I wonder what hazards of interoperability may arise with existing resolvers which already (mis-) understand DNAME. Are you convinced that this is "not a problem"? Can you convince others? [Assuming that they are prepared to be convinced ... 8-)] The idea of giving DNAME "weak" re-directing semantics for the owner node, over-ridden by "stronger" resource records, seems to be significant only at a zone apex, where it would be needed to preserve (possible) existing use of DNAME to cover the descendants of the apex node. I'm convinced that placement of DNAME at a zone cut (in conjunction with NS records) makes no sense, as this would involve (as DNAME is currently understood) hijacking on the part of the parent of all the descendants of the apex of the delegated zone. With the proposed extended DNAME semantics, such hijacking would simply become more thorough. On Fri, 04 Dec 2009 17:23:08 +0000, Paul Vixie wrote: >> Date: 04 Dec 2009 15:16:08 +0000 >> From: Chris Thompson >> Would it, I wonder, be feasible to relax the restriction (explicitly >> present in RFC 2672) that a CNAME and DNAME cannot exist at the >> same owner name? (I haven't thought this through in detail yet.) > > this would be a dramatic, disruptive, chaotic and unwelcome change > (IMHO). Paul, You may be right, but just saying doesn't make it so. Would you care to fill in the background to your opinion with an example or two? AFAICS, there is no intrinsic semantic conflict between CNAME and DNAME, as they "cover" different parts of the naming hierarchy: one, the owner node; the other, its descendants. OTOH, there is conflict between CNAME and other data which belong to the same node. It seems to me that this is the only reason that it is forbidden to have "CNAME and other data". Everyone, For a node which is neither a zone apex nor a zone cut, either the extension which Ed suggests or relaxation of the rule which excludes co-incident CNAME and DNAME records would allow "bundling" of the kind which Vaggelis sees as the means to support the kind of variant label clusters which his country's registry (and likely many others) must accommodate. Otherwise, a ned RRtype is needed to do the job. This bundling is needed in parallel to, but not at, a zone cut, as in the following example. $ORIGIN gr. ; I hope no-one is offended by this choice ; ; zone cut deleg IN NS ns1.deleg.gr. IN NS ns-a.example.com. ; ; parallel bundled pseudo-delegation xn--12345 IN DNAME deleg ; take care of descendants xn--12345 IN CNAME deleg ; take care of owner node With the extended DNAME specification, the CNAME record shown is to be omitted. Depending on policy at a specific registry, the "bundle" may comprise several pseudo-delegations. The option of using parallel zone cuts leads inevitably to problems either of quality assurance or of straitforward conflict. Best regards, Niall O'Reilly From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Tue Dec 8 05:43:51 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C32328C12F for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 05:43:51 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From:VIAGRA \256 Pfizer Inc.; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 05:43:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from vpn-pppoe-88-213-214-122.campus-bg.com (vpn-pppoe-88-213-214-122.campus-bg.com [88.213.214.122]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 17ABA28C126 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 05:43:48 -0800 (PST) From:VIAGRA ® Pfizer Inc. To:dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject:Dear dnsext-archive@ietf.org 77% OFF on Pfizer. 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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 8 06:40:19 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B9643A6884; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 06:40:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.048 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.048 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qtKGQI-bGwiY; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 06:40:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B37023A67E3; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 06:40:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI18Q-000LIK-OX for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 14:33:50 +0000 Received: from [129.6.16.227] (helo=smtp.nist.gov) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI18L-000LHT-LF for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 14:33:46 +0000 Received: from WSXGHUB2.xchange.nist.gov (wsxghub2.nist.gov [129.6.18.19]) by smtp.nist.gov (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id nB8EXTBl030117 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 09:33:29 -0500 Received: from MBCLUSTER.xchange.nist.gov ([fe80::41df:f63f:c718:e08]) by WSXGHUB2.xchange.nist.gov ([2002:8106:1213::8106:1213]) with mapi; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 09:33:15 -0500 From: "Rose, Scott W." To: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org" Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 09:33:27 -0500 Subject: Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME Thread-Topic: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME Thread-Index: Acp3/wrf61KAPvE9S/SG/ZZYhtkiEQAFFyn6 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4B1E3ECD.4050706@ucd.ie> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-NIST-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-NIST-MailScanner-From: scott.rose@nist.gov Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 12/8/09 6:55 AM, "Niall O'Reilly" wrote: > Apologies to all if I'm just repeating the obvious. >=20 > On Mon, 07 Dec 2009 10:23:33 -0500, Edward Lewis wrote: >> Answering w/o regard for what's in the specs now (if it is different we >> can attack that next): >=20 > Ed, >=20 > The idea of giving DNAME "weak" re-directing semantics for the > owner node, over-ridden by "stronger" resource records, seems > to be significant only at a zone apex, where it would be needed > to preserve (possible) existing use of DNAME to cover the > descendants of the apex node. >=20 > I'm convinced that placement of DNAME at a zone cut (in > conjunction with NS records) makes no sense, as this would > involve (as DNAME is currently understood) hijacking on the part > of the parent of all the descendants of the apex of the > delegated zone. With the proposed extended DNAME semantics, > such hijacking would simply become more thorough. I don't think this is what is being advocated, but instead give DNAME some CNAME-like features. The restriction of having a DNAME at the same owner name as a NS RR (except at the zone apex) will still be part of dname-bis. The question is: What would break because of this (if anything)? Scott =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Scott Rose NIST scottr@nist.gov ph: +1 301-975-8439 Google Voice: +1-571-249-3671 http://www.dnsops.gov/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 8 07:02:52 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D9F13A6874; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 07:02:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qorPBJYH3F7q; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 07:02:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 457923A67E3; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 07:02:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI1VI-000NbT-Fi for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 14:57:28 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI1VF-000NbG-NN for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 14:57:25 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3DECA1A93 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 14:57:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 08 Dec 2009 09:33:27 EST." References: X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 14:57:24 +0000 Message-ID: <59775.1260284244@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > From: "Rose, Scott W." > Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 09:33:27 -0500 > > The question is: What would break because of this (if anything)? it would break but there's a simple patch which is to DNAME the 0-9,a-f labels instead. so, this is not a showstopper. (and ip6.int is pretty well dead anyway.) i don't know what else would break under this proposal. if it's not a change at the nameserver layer and the only thing it does at the application layer is make DNAME more usable for IDN TLD's, let's do it. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 8 07:16:51 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD3A928C146; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 07:16:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.297 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.297 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.860, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RbOvbX1H4Uzu; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 07:16:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E71913A67E3; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 07:16:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI1iR-000OrZ-9f for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:11:03 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::5] (helo=farside.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI1gv-000Ojq-8r for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:09:29 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (unknown [12.54.124.42]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (not verified)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40EE3E6065; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 15:09:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nB8F8KZG011950; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 02:08:37 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200912081508.nB8F8KZG011950@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: "Niall O'Reilly" Cc: Edward Lewis , vixie@isc.org, "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org" , Vaggelis Segredakis , "'Sotiris Panaretou'" From: Mark Andrews References: <4B1E3ECD.4050706@ucd.ie> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 08 Dec 2009 11:55:57 -0000." <4B1E3ECD.4050706@ucd.ie> Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 02:08:20 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: In message <4B1E3ECD.4050706@ucd.ie>, "Niall O'Reilly" writes: > Apologies to all if I'm just repeating the obvious. > > On Mon, 07 Dec 2009 10:23:33 -0500, Edward Lewis wrote: > > Answering w/o regard for what's in the specs now (if it is different we > > can attack that next): > > Ed, > > you seem to be suggesting a way to avoid writing up xNAME > by simply extending the specification of DNAME. This seems a > neat procedural short cut. I wonder what hazards of > interoperability may arise with existing resolvers which already > (mis-) understand DNAME. Are you convinced that this is "not > a problem"? Can you convince others? [Assuming that they are > prepared to be convinced ... 8-)] Extending DNAME this way breaks the ability of a zone owner to redirect themselves. It forces the redirection to be done in the parent zone. This is the trade off that was made when we decided to do DNAME the way we did it. The majority of the worlds resolvers handle DNAME today as it is currently defined. If we need different semantics, create a new type and use it. The currently published DNSSEC algorithms MUST NOT be used to sign the zone. We can use the DNSSEC algorithm number to signal that xNAME is understood. This should be a relatively easy extension for anyone that is already DNAME aware. In the meantime the authoritative servers for the zone just synthesis responses until xNAME awareness spreads. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 8 07:22:32 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 151D228C155; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 07:22:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jj3O1FPRPC76; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 07:22:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D64C28C157; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 07:22:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI1pg-000Pxe-MJ for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:18:32 +0000 Received: from [204.152.189.190] (helo=virtualized.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI1pc-000Px2-W0 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:18:29 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by virtualized.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA8AA989878; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 07:18:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at virtualized.org Received: from virtualized.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (trantor.virtualized.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p+i9BgmS7yH0; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 07:18:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.31.10.18] (unknown [64.168.229.50]) by virtualized.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A69B698986D; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 07:18:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: David Conrad In-Reply-To: <59775.1260284244@nsa.vix.com> Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 07:18:24 -0800 Cc: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1506625A-002A-42CA-85E6-72AA9B0E69FD@virtualized.org> References: <59775.1260284244@nsa.vix.com> To: Paul Vixie X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Dec 8, 2009, at 6:57 AM, Paul Vixie wrote: > it would break but > there's a simple patch which is to DNAME the 0-9,a-f labels instead. so, > this is not a showstopper. (and ip6.int is pretty well dead anyway.) You mean the ip6.int zone that was removed from .int on 6/6/06? Regards, -drc From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 8 07:30:40 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A738A28C169; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 07:30:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q3pmwC6uxNY4; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 07:30:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 907B828C166; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 07:30:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI1xK-0000pW-Bj for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:26:26 +0000 Received: from [2001:4900:1:392:213:20ff:fe1b:3bfe] (helo=monster.hopcount.ca) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI1xH-0000p0-Nc for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:26:24 +0000 Received: from [41.208.162.245] (helo=[192.168.75.131]) by monster.hopcount.ca with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI1xF-0001Vm-Hy; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:26:22 +0000 Subject: Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Joe Abley In-Reply-To: <59775.1260284244@nsa.vix.com> Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 15:26:12 +0000 Cc: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <59775.1260284244@nsa.vix.com> To: Paul Vixie X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 41.208.162.245 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jabley@hopcount.ca X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on monster.hopcount.ca); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 2009-12-08, at 14:57, Paul Vixie wrote: >> (and ip6.int is pretty well dead anyway.) It's pushing up the daisies, pining for the fijords, etc, and has been = for some time. Perhaps ISC-TN-2002-1 should be marked historic :-) At = least, it seems like that very specific use of DNAME is no reason to = preserve current behaviour. [octopus:~]% dig @NS.ICANN.ORG IP6.INT NS +norec ; <<>> DiG 9.6.0-APPLE-P2 <<>> @NS.ICANN.ORG IP6.INT NS +norec ; (1 server found) ;; global options: +cmd ;; Got answer: ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NXDOMAIN, id: 14939 ;; flags: qr aa; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 0, AUTHORITY: 1, ADDITIONAL: 0 ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;IP6.INT. IN NS ;; AUTHORITY SECTION: INT. 86400 IN SOA dns1.icann.org. = noc.icann.org. 2009120701 3600 1800 604800 86400 ;; Query time: 270 msec ;; SERVER: 192.0.34.126#53(192.0.34.126) ;; WHEN: Tue Dec 8 15:22:18 2009 ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 79 [octopus:~]%=20 From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 8 07:49:05 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A20428C162; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 07:49:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YXogS6UIdjD3; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 07:49:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACA3128C15B; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 07:49:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI2DT-0002h4-CN for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:43:07 +0000 Received: from [198.32.6.68] (helo=vacation.karoshi.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI2DO-0002gQ-31 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:43:02 +0000 Received: from karoshi.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by vacation.karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id nB8FdtCK021561; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 15:39:55 GMT Received: (from bmanning@localhost) by karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id nB8Fdt7p021560; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 15:39:55 GMT Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 15:39:55 +0000 From: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com To: David Conrad Cc: Paul Vixie , "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME Message-ID: <20091208153955.GA21549@vacation.karoshi.com.> References: <59775.1260284244@nsa.vix.com> <1506625A-002A-42CA-85E6-72AA9B0E69FD@virtualized.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1506625A-002A-42CA-85E6-72AA9B0E69FD@virtualized.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Tue, Dec 08, 2009 at 07:18:24AM -0800, David Conrad wrote: > On Dec 8, 2009, at 6:57 AM, Paul Vixie wrote: > > it would break but > > there's a simple patch which is to DNAME the 0-9,a-f labels instead. so, > > this is not a showstopper. (and ip6.int is pretty well dead anyway.) > > You mean the ip6.int zone that was removed from .int on 6/6/06? > > Regards, > -drc > yeah... that one. --bill From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 8 07:49:47 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBB2C3A6827; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 07:49:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PG53bu4JRLY7; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 07:49:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAF6F3A63D3; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 07:49:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI2FB-0002rL-Pv for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:44:53 +0000 Received: from [198.32.6.68] (helo=vacation.karoshi.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI2F9-0002qt-PO for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:44:51 +0000 Received: from karoshi.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by vacation.karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id nB8Fg4CK021577; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 15:42:04 GMT Received: (from bmanning@localhost) by karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id nB8FflRC021575; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 15:41:47 GMT Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 15:41:47 +0000 From: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com To: Douglas Otis Cc: Paul Vixie , "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org WG" , Michael =?iso-8859-1?Q?T=FCxen?= , William Allen Simpson Subject: Re: [dnsext] Question on EDNS MTU... Message-ID: <20091208154147.GB21549@vacation.karoshi.com.> References: <4F28ABE8-76BF-4073-8E9B-840784D5C83B@hopcount.ca> <8C0C26CA-4D43-472E-B166-B53841DEB37F@hopcount.ca> <20091204150953.GA8919@vacation.karoshi.com.> <4AED04A3-47EC-4CBF-A069-2962F4EB9F8A@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <27158.1259946981@nsa.vix.com> <232E6739-9C8B-41B5-AA7C-3D607E8F4A66@mail-abuse.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <232E6739-9C8B-41B5-AA7C-3D607E8F4A66@mail-abuse.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Mon, Dec 07, 2009 at 05:43:45PM -0800, Douglas Otis wrote: > > On Dec 4, 2009, at 9:16 AM, Paul Vixie wrote: > > >> From: Nicholas Weaver > >> Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 07:12:58 -0800 > >> > >>> hence the argument for 1220... > > 1280 should be specified as the desired PMTU instead. not so much - not as long as VPNs exist for moving IPv6 packets around. > -Doug > --bill From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 8 08:19:58 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECC6E3A68D1; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 08:19:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hA8NsYwXQq1Z; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 08:19:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F39653A6843; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 08:19:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI2iO-0006I6-Te for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 16:15:04 +0000 Received: from [2001:4900:1:392:213:20ff:fe1b:3bfe] (helo=monster.hopcount.ca) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI2iM-0006Hk-7U for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 16:15:02 +0000 Received: from [41.208.162.245] (helo=[192.168.75.131]) by monster.hopcount.ca with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI2i5-00023Y-0T; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 16:14:47 +0000 Subject: Re: [dnsext] Question on EDNS MTU... Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Joe Abley In-Reply-To: <20091208154147.GB21549@vacation.karoshi.com.> Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 16:14:34 +0000 Cc: Douglas Otis , Paul Vixie , "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org WG" , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Michael_T=FCxen?= , William Allen Simpson Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <181CD333-B3D3-49FA-BC58-828620E40B86@hopcount.ca> References: <4F28ABE8-76BF-4073-8E9B-840784D5C83B@hopcount.ca> <8C0C26CA-4D43-472E-B166-B53841DEB37F@hopcount.ca> <20091204150953.GA8919@vacation.karoshi.com.> <4AED04A3-47EC-4CBF-A069-2962F4EB9F8A@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <27158.1259946981@nsa.vix.com> <232E6739-9C8B-41B5-AA7C-3D607E8F4A66@mail-abuse.org> <20091208154147.GB21549@vacation.karoshi.com.> To: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 41.208.162.245 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jabley@hopcount.ca X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on monster.hopcount.ca); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 2009-12-08, at 15:41, bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com wrote: > On Mon, Dec 07, 2009 at 05:43:45PM -0800, Douglas Otis wrote: >>=20 >=20 >> On Dec 4, 2009, at 9:16 AM, Paul Vixie wrote: >>=20 >=20 >>>> From: Nicholas Weaver >>>> Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 07:12:58 -0800 >>>>=20 >>>>> hence the argument for 1220... >>=20 >> 1280 should be specified as the desired PMTU instead. >=20 > not so much - not as long as VPNs exist for moving IPv6 packets = around. I've forgotten to ask for clarification on this when I've seen you ask = it before. My understanding of the standard is that 1280 is the minimum link MTU = for any interface with a v6 address. My further understanding is that this minimum applies regardless of = whether the interface is a physical interface like an ethernet port, or = a logical interface whose frames will be encapsulated (802.1q, PPPoE, = GRE, whatever). A VPN which moves IPv6 packets around must be capable of moving around a = 1280 byte packet, or it's failing to comply with the standard. Are you suggesting that my understanding of the standard (per above) is = wrong? Or are you rather suggesting that this aspect of the standard is so = widely ignored that it cannot be relied upon in practice? Joe= From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 8 09:10:41 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17A623A6A1B; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 09:10:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.374 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.374 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.121, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ICPCzoUd2Gcz; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 09:10:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 427D23A6A2B; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 09:10:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI3U1-000BFe-Ky for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 17:04:17 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI3Ty-000BFB-OE for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 17:04:15 +0000 Received: from [10.31.201.23] (gatt.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.6]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nB8H3bk0093555; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 12:03:38 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200912081508.nB8F8KZG011950@drugs.dv.isc.org> References: <4B1E3ECD.4050706@ucd.ie> <200912081508.nB8F8KZG011950@drugs.dv.isc.org> Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 12:03:05 -0500 To: Mark Andrews From: Edward Lewis Subject: Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME Cc: "Niall O'Reilly" , Edward Lewis , vixie@isc.org, "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org" , Vaggelis Segredakis , "'Sotiris Panaretou'" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: I've seen earlier posts and am still working my way through them, but this one has comments that I can't understand. At 2:08 +1100 12/9/09, Mark Andrews wrote: >Extending DNAME this way breaks the ability of a zone owner to >redirect themselves. It forces the redirection to be done in the >parent zone. In trying to understand what is meant by that comment, let's look at the three ways DNAME could appear relative to a zone cut. 1.) Above the zone cut: $ORIGIN tld. xn--12345.tld. DNAME xn-54321.example.net. xn--12345.tld. NS ns1.nameserver.example.net. xn--12345.tld. NS ns2.nameserver.example.net. Well, that's an "illegal" configuration as we can't have a DNAME and NS together in this way. There's a conflict between being referral to other servers and the query rewrite instruction. So we are down to two ways. 2.) Inside a zone, i.e., not at the apex: $ORIGIN tld. xn--12345.tld. DNAME xn-54321.net. ;; xn--54321.tld. NS ns1.nameserver.example.net. xn--54321.tld. NS ns2.nameserver.example.net. In this case, any record types other than SOA, CNAME and NS can be present at the DNAME owner. xn--12345.tld. DNAME xn-54321.net. xn--12345.tld. TXT "text string from parent" xn--12345.tld. MX 10 mailserver.example.net. xn--12345.tld. MX 25 backupserver.example.net. In the existing rules, queries for xn--12345.tld./(DNAME, TXT, MX and ANY) will be sourced from the above, and NoError/NoData for all other types. The proposed new rule would later the latter to say "source the answer from whatever is at the DNAME target." So there is redirection at the parent here, at least as far as I understand redirection. 3.) At the apex of a zone: $ORIGIN xn--12345.tld. @ SOA .... .... ..... NS ns1.xn-54321.tld. NS ns2.xn-54321.tld. TXT "this is from xn-12345.tld" DNAME xn--54321.tld. and looking at the target: $ORIGIN xn--54321.tld. @ SOA .... .... ..... NS ns1.xn-54321.tld. NS ns2.xn-54321.tld. TXT "this is from xn-54321.tld" MX 10 mailserver.example.net. MX 25 backupserver.example.net. Under the existing rules, a query for (xn--12345.tld/MX) fails to return the desired records (which is the original problem, if I understand correctly). The proposed extension would "source" the answer from xn--54321.tld.'s MX record. Essentially, now allowing the child to redirect. I don't get how this "forces the redirection to be done in the parent zone." >The majority of the worlds resolvers handle DNAME today as it is >currently defined. I would hope so, because if they didn't do it today as it is currently defined, they don't comply with RFC 2672. >If we need different semantics, create a new type and use it. The proposal is based on what has happened to the CNAME definition. We didn't create a new type for that. It still is a valid and open question, what does the proposed extension break? >The currently published DNSSEC algorithms MUST NOT be used to sign the >zone. The message doesn't support this assertion. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis NeuStar You can leave a voice message at +1-571-434-5468 As with IPv6, the problem with the deployment of frictionless surfaces is that they're not getting traction. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 8 11:00:14 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BEC73A6A41; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:00:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qdob5hdVYA1v; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:00:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98C873A6923; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:00:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI5Cv-000MtJ-FX for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 18:54:45 +0000 Received: from [198.32.6.68] (helo=vacation.karoshi.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI5Ct-000Mt1-BM for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 18:54:43 +0000 Received: from karoshi.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by vacation.karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id nB8Iq2CK023145; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 18:52:02 GMT Received: (from bmanning@localhost) by karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id nB8Iq2ZV023144; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 18:52:02 GMT Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 18:52:02 +0000 From: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com To: Joe Abley Cc: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com, Douglas Otis , Paul Vixie , "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org WG" , Michael =?iso-8859-1?Q?T=FCxen?= , William Allen Simpson Subject: Re: [dnsext] Question on EDNS MTU... Message-ID: <20091208185202.GA23001@vacation.karoshi.com.> References: <4F28ABE8-76BF-4073-8E9B-840784D5C83B@hopcount.ca> <8C0C26CA-4D43-472E-B166-B53841DEB37F@hopcount.ca> <20091204150953.GA8919@vacation.karoshi.com.> <4AED04A3-47EC-4CBF-A069-2962F4EB9F8A@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <27158.1259946981@nsa.vix.com> <232E6739-9C8B-41B5-AA7C-3D607E8F4A66@mail-abuse.org> <20091208154147.GB21549@vacation.karoshi.com.> <181CD333-B3D3-49FA-BC58-828620E40B86@hopcount.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <181CD333-B3D3-49FA-BC58-828620E40B86@hopcount.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Tue, Dec 08, 2009 at 04:14:34PM +0000, Joe Abley wrote: > > On 2009-12-08, at 15:41, bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com wrote: > > > On Mon, Dec 07, 2009 at 05:43:45PM -0800, Douglas Otis wrote: > >> > > > >> On Dec 4, 2009, at 9:16 AM, Paul Vixie wrote: > >> > > > >>>> From: Nicholas Weaver > >>>> Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 07:12:58 -0800 > >>>> > >>>>> hence the argument for 1220... > >> > >> 1280 should be specified as the desired PMTU instead. > > > > not so much - not as long as VPNs exist for moving IPv6 packets around. > > I've forgotten to ask for clarification on this when I've seen you ask it before. > > My understanding of the standard is that 1280 is the minimum link MTU for any interface with a v6 address. > > My further understanding is that this minimum applies regardless of whether the interface is a physical interface like an ethernet port, or a logical interface whose frames will be encapsulated (802.1q, PPPoE, GRE, whatever). > > A VPN which moves IPv6 packets around must be capable of moving around a 1280 byte packet, or it's failing to comply with the standard. > > Are you suggesting that my understanding of the standard (per above) is wrong? > > Or are you rather suggesting that this aspect of the standard is so widely ignored that it cannot be relied upon in practice? > > > Joe i can not suggest anything about your undertanding of the spec or your interpretation of same. I can say that in my limited (12years) experience with IPv6, generally in tunnels of some form or other, than 1220 has been the common path MTU - with the e2e MTU being set to 1280 - and hte link layer doing the fragmentation/reassembly. YMMV of course. --bill From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 8 11:02:41 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB7083A6923; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:02:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VY4o1GHspjHh; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:02:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2B173A6A59; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:02:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI5Fx-000NC9-44 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 18:57:53 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI5Fu-000NBi-CR for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 18:57:50 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C219BA1AE4 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 18:57:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org WG" Subject: Re: [dnsext] Question on EDNS MTU... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 08 Dec 2009 18:52:02 GMT." <20091208185202.GA23001@vacation.karoshi.com.> References: <4F28ABE8-76BF-4073-8E9B-840784D5C83B@hopcount.ca> <8C0C26CA-4D43-472E-B166-B53841DEB37F@hopcount.ca> <20091204150953.GA8919@vacation.karoshi.com.> <4AED04A3-47EC-4CBF-A069-2962F4EB9F8A@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <27158.1259946981@nsa.vix.com> <232E6739-9C8B-41B5-AA7C-3D607E8F4A66@mail-abuse.org> <20091208154147.GB21549@vacation.karoshi.com.> <181CD333-B3D3-49FA-BC58-828620E40B86@hopcount.ca> <20091208185202.GA23001@vacation.karoshi.com.> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 18:57:49 +0000 Message-ID: <69957.1260298669@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 18:52:02 +0000 > From: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com > > I can say that in my limited (12years) experience with IPv6, > generally in tunnels of some form or other, than 1220 has been the > common path MTU - with the e2e MTU being set to 1280 - and hte link > layer doing the fragmentation/reassembly. i think that rfc limits should be based on theory and validated by practice, but not based on practice directly. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 8 11:22:21 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 417EA3A6934; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:22:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bUTvsa7n0emG; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:22:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69AC13A68DB; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:22:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI5ZX-000PQQ-Nj for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:18:07 +0000 Received: from [2001:4900:1:392:213:20ff:fe1b:3bfe] (helo=monster.hopcount.ca) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI5ZW-000PPz-IU for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:18:06 +0000 Received: from [41.214.118.64] (helo=[192.168.75.131]) by monster.hopcount.ca with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI5ZP-000424-Bp; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:17:59 +0000 Subject: Re: [dnsext] Question on EDNS MTU... Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Joe Abley In-Reply-To: <20091208185202.GA23001@vacation.karoshi.com.> Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 19:17:26 +0000 Cc: Douglas Otis , Paul Vixie , "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org WG" , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Michael_T=FCxen?= , William Allen Simpson Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <608F0CF7-D373-4491-A2EF-C7CFDF448EE2@hopcount.ca> References: <4F28ABE8-76BF-4073-8E9B-840784D5C83B@hopcount.ca> <8C0C26CA-4D43-472E-B166-B53841DEB37F@hopcount.ca> <20091204150953.GA8919@vacation.karoshi.com.> <4AED04A3-47EC-4CBF-A069-2962F4EB9F8A@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <27158.1259946981@nsa.vix.com> <232E6739-9C8B-41B5-AA7C-3D607E8F4A66@mail-abuse.org> <20091208154147.GB21549@vacation.karoshi.com.> <181CD333-B3D3-49FA-BC58-828620E40B86@hopcount.ca> <20091208185202.GA23001@vacation.karoshi.com.> To: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 41.214.118.64 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jabley@hopcount.ca X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on monster.hopcount.ca); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 2009-12-08, at 18:52, bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com wrote: > I can say that in my limited (12years) experience with IPv6, = generally in tunnels of > some form or other, than 1220 has been the common path MTU - = with the e2e MTU being set > to 1280 - and hte link layer doing the fragmentation/reassembly. By "e2e MTU" you mean "MTU" as far as the IPv6 interface is concerned, = right? So you're talking about a 1280 byte IPv6 MTU, not a 1220 byte = IPv6 MTU? Joe= From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 8 11:29:39 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A3743A6848; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:29:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.49 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.49 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.995, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 35LmLNtZLHOr; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:29:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46E423A66B4; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:29:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI5hQ-00009d-VO for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:26:16 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI5hP-00009L-Dw for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:26:15 +0000 Received: from stora.ogud.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nB8JQDWd072390 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 14:26:13 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers@stora.ogud.com) Received: (from namedroppers@localhost) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id nB8JQD7I072389 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 14:26:13 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers) Received: from [128.33.1.81] (helo=smtp.bbn.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHi6Z-000HdI-6C for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Dec 2009 18:14:39 +0000 Received: from dhcp89-089-110.bbn.com ([128.89.89.110]) by smtp.bbn.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1NHi6W-0007yK-Cr; Mon, 07 Dec 2009 13:14:37 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 13:13:59 -0500 To: "Rose, Scott W." From: Stephen Kent Subject: Re: [dnsext] GOST algorithms in DNSSEC Cc: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: [ Moderators note: Post was moderated, either because it was posted by a non-subscriber, or because it was over 20K. With the massive amount of spam, it is easy to miss and therefore delete relevant posts by non-subscribers. Please fix your subscription addresses. ] At 8:36 AM -0500 12/4/09, Rose, Scott W. wrote: >On 12/4/09 6:33 AM, "roy@nominet.org.uk" wrote: > >> Stephen Kent wrote on 12/03/2009 06:57:19 PM: >> >>> Folks, >>> >>> I am opposed to assigning algorithm identifier values to the GOST >>> algorithms, until the WG has solved the alg ID space problem. I >>> believe Paul Hoffman suggested this in Hiroshima. >> >> It is my understanding that there is no Algorithm ID space problem. >> > >There could be in the future, but that would depend on a growth of newly >developed algorithms. It may be easy to come up with 257 unique algorithms, >but I'd like to think the crypto and DNS communities could boil that down to >a handful that are used during any given decade. The crypto community does tend to have manageable number of candidates. My concern is about accommodating nationally-based algorithm like GOST. Russia, Japan, and South Korea all have published such algorithms in the IETF in the past, as informational RFCs. When we have essentially unbounded alg ID spaces this is fine. DNSSEC does not seem to have that luxury (unless one relegates national algorithms to the two private IDs (253 & 254). Also, when we talk about elliptic curve algorithms the need to specify curves, and that can consume IDs very quickly. > >>> My reasoning is that we need to provide a clear distinction between: >>> >>> - algorithms that are MUSTs, i.e., mandatory to implement in >>> all DNS resolvers and zone signers >> >> There isn't such a requirement at all. The "mandatory to implement" applies >> solely to validators. The resolver just resolves. The server just serves. >> To those entities, its garbage in, garbage out. It is definitely not >> required to implement for zone signers. >> >insert plug for draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-registry-fixes-01 here :) > >> >> I think you may have been misinformed. I hope that this helped you to get >> on the right track. >> >> I suggest we allocate an arbitrary (yet unallocated) Algorithm ID to >> indicate Extended Algorithm ID, and adopt the Private Algorithms scheme for >> that, and have IANA open a registry. No rocket surgery here. This will take >> a fraction of the time needed to exhaust the current space. >> >Speaking of OID, has anyone ever used the PRIVATE(OID) space for any >experimentation? I've heard some other groups wanting to use the DNS for >OID lookups, and was curious about previous DNS-OID collaborations. Good question. if the two forms of private IDs (DNS and OIDs) are well supported, then I see a simple way to accommodate national algorithm requests, but I didn't think that the request for an ID for GOST was contemplating that approach. >I'd support working to have an expansion clause to the algo code in place >now. I don't know if we'd actually need it, but better safe than sorry? > >Scott Thah's my view as well. Steve From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 8 11:30:23 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01F6A3A6A5B; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:30:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.954, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rugfvBzckKYa; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:30:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88E653A6A31; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:30:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI5iN-0000Eg-DM for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:27:15 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI5iK-0000EL-OJ for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:27:13 +0000 Received: from stora.ogud.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nB8JRBW4072411 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 14:27:11 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers@stora.ogud.com) Received: (from namedroppers@localhost) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id nB8JRB1o072410 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 14:27:11 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers) Received: from [128.33.1.81] (helo=smtp.bbn.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHlqJ-000Dfb-LY for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Dec 2009 22:14:07 +0000 Received: from dhcp89-089-110.bbn.com ([128.89.89.110]) by smtp.bbn.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1NHlqH-0006Vc-Cb; Mon, 07 Dec 2009 17:14:06 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9475131.1259879092302.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <9475131.1259879092302.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 17:14:01 -0500 To: "Jeffrey A. Williams" From: Stephen Kent Subject: Re: [dnsext] GOST algorithms in DNSSEC Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: [ Moderators note: Post was moderated, either because it was posted by a non-subscriber, or because it was over 20K. With the massive amount of spam, it is easy to miss and therefore delete relevant posts by non-subscribers. Please fix your subscription addresses. ] At 4:24 PM -0600 12/3/09, Jeffrey A. Williams wrote: >Stephen and all, > > Quite frankly it is my position and our practice sense >implimenting DNSSEC several years ago that limiting algorithms >in any fashion is unwise and can lead to less than adaquate >DNS security accordingly. Can you explain your statement a bit more? I can imagine two different contexts that might motivate it, and want to know which one you have in mind (or if there is some other motivation behind your statement). In the public Internet, DNSSEC will yield the greatest benefit if every user is able to verify every signed record. This suggests that one should avoid a proliferation of algorithms, since proliferation imposes burdens on user software. Ideally, one would have two sets of algorithms, one current and one "next" to enable a transition as cryptanalysis motivates such transitions. If, you're suggesting that closed environments ought to be able to use whatever algorithms they wish, I agree. There are two private algorithm IDs defined in 4034, with different ways of identifying such algorithms. This allows private use algorithm assignment We ought to be able to assign a code point to anyone who requests one (with suitable IETF references to the algorithms). However, it was my understanding that the current space for such code points is limited (otyer than the private alg ID space). That motivates defining a way to extend the alg ID space, an activity that I understand is already underway. I was suggesting that we impose a moratorium on assigning any new alg IDs (for GOST and the slew of ECDSA and SHA-xxx requests) until the new code space format and conventions are agreed upon, including the criteria for assigning algs to the current space vs. extended spaces. Steve From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 8 11:30:35 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30D403A66B4; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:30:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.411 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.411 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.916, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u+dPnTy2-KbP; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:30:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED5A73A68C2; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:30:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI5iY-0000G0-F1 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:27:26 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI5iW-0000Fe-Ui for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:27:25 +0000 Received: from stora.ogud.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nB8JRNda072421 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 14:27:23 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers@stora.ogud.com) Received: (from namedroppers@localhost) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id nB8JRNZF072420 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 14:27:23 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers) Received: from [128.33.1.81] (helo=smtp.bbn.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHlqI-000DfJ-Gk for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Dec 2009 22:14:06 +0000 Received: from dhcp89-089-110.bbn.com ([128.89.89.110]) by smtp.bbn.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1NHlqH-0006Vc-AM; Mon, 07 Dec 2009 17:14:05 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200912032323.nB3NN4jZ026547@drugs.dv.isc.org> References: <200912032323.nB3NN4jZ026547@drugs.dv.isc.org> Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 17:12:37 -0500 To: Mark Andrews From: Stephen Kent Subject: Re: [dnsext] GOST algorithms in DNSSEC Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: [ Moderators note: Post was moderated, either because it was posted by a non-subscriber, or because it was over 20K. With the massive amount of spam, it is easy to miss and therefore delete relevant posts by non-subscribers. Please fix your subscription addresses. ] > >The numeric id space really isn't limited to 256 values. We just >havn't formalised how to encode those other values yet as there has >not been the need. If/when we get to the point where we will need >to use those other values it will be straight forward to provide >them. 253 and 254 are examples of how this can be done. > >Mark Mark, I think it is prudent to formalize this first. We already have proposals for GOST and a slew of ECDSA and SHA-xxx requests. In the elliptic curve signature arena (e.g., ECDSA) one can get substantial proliferation of algs because the specific cure, as well as key length and hash function all need to be identified. So, as a precaution, I think it wise to nail down the details of how to expand the space first, so that we don't have to say no to folks who come a bit later in the process. If the right answer is to push national algs to the private alg spaces, then that's fine, but I'd like to see this stated explicitly. If the answer is to create a new, extended alg ID space (as Roy indicated) then that sounds OK too, for national algs. I'd recommend using the OID-style extension facility, because these algs often will have OIDs anyway, reducing teh proliferation of IDs. Steve From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 8 11:30:49 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71BE83A6A31; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:30:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.376 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.376 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.881, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xZAdrtuUE20r; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:30:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60A953A68C2; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:30:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI5hz-0000C1-So for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:26:51 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI5hx-0000Bj-1z for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:26:49 +0000 Received: from stora.ogud.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nB8JQlaQ072400 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 14:26:47 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers@stora.ogud.com) Received: (from namedroppers@localhost) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id nB8JQl3Y072399 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 14:26:47 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers) Received: from [128.33.1.81] (helo=smtp.bbn.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHlqI-000DfF-D5 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Dec 2009 22:14:06 +0000 Received: from dhcp89-089-110.bbn.com ([128.89.89.110]) by smtp.bbn.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1NHlqG-0006Vc-BU; Mon, 07 Dec 2009 17:14:04 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 17:11:02 -0500 To: roy@nominet.org.uk From: Stephen Kent Subject: Re: [dnsext] GOST algorithms in DNSSEC Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: [ Moderators note: Post was moderated, either because it was posted by a non-subscriber, or because it was over 20K. With the massive amount of spam, it is easy to miss and therefore delete relevant posts by non-subscribers. Please fix your subscription addresses. ] At 12:33 PM +0100 12/4/09, roy@nominet.org.uk wrote: >... > > - algorithms that are MUSTs, i.e., mandatory to implement in >> all DNS resolvers and zone signers > >There isn't such a requirement at all. The "mandatory to implement" applies >solely to validators. The resolver just resolves. The server just serves. >To those entities, its garbage in, garbage out. It is definitely not >required to implement for zone signers. Sorry my language was imprecise. I meant to suggest that validators of SIG records are the ones that would be required to implement a MUST algorithm. I also would argue that zone signer code support MUST algorithms as well, to maximize potential interoperability. > >> - algorithms that are MAYs > >The sole reason to have a MANDATORY for validators is to gracefully >consider a zone as unsigned if the parent indicates (by the algorithm field >in the DS record) that the child is using an algorithm that might not be >implemented everywhere. The alternative is that all algorithms have to be >implemented in order to prevent BOGUS state. I agree that this convention allows for a fallback in case a zone is signed using an algorithm that is not a MUST. But, for maximum utility on the public Internet, one presumably wants zones to be signed using MUST algorithms, whenever possible. > > Because we have limited space for algorithm IDs under the current >> design, I think it appropriate to agree upon a scheme that enables >> expansion of the ID space first, and then to assign IDs for these >> these two categories of algorithms. > >There is a near unlimited space that allows for assigning algorithms by >allocating part of the signature field. That is standardized for Private >Algorithms (see RFC4034 A.1.1). That is trivially adoptable for any other >algorithm. This is not subtyping. Whoops. I was not aware of the two private alg facilities in 4304. If the intent is to allocation IDs in these two spaces (which do not suffer from the ID space size limits that concern me) to national algorithms, I think that would be OK. Is that the plan? >... >I think you may have been misinformed. I hope that this helped you to get >on the right track. the pointer to the appendix in 4304 was very helpful. >I suggest we allocate an arbitrary (yet unallocated) Algorithm ID to >indicate Extended Algorithm ID, and adopt the Private Algorithms scheme for >that, and have IANA open a registry. No rocket surgery here. This will take >a fraction of the time needed to exhaust the current space. So you think that the private algorithm space ought not be used for national algorithms like GOST? Do you recommend allocating the current space to everyone who requests an alg ID, and then flow into the extended ID space? I thought it might be preferable to reserve the current space for algs that are agreed upon as suitable for Internet-wide implementation, and move national algs to the some form of extended space. >I'm dismayed that you seriously consider halting current work (GOST) in >order to solve a non-prudent problem. Why wasn't this a problem for recent >work (RSASHA2)? I think RSA-SHA2 is qualitatively different, if one views the two IDs (8 & 10) as Internet-wdide (vs. national) alg IDs. Steve From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 8 11:35:07 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A473D3A63D3; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:35:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RVRKF3rALayH; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:35:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 931783A67EC; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:35:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI5mL-0000jP-3v for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:31:21 +0000 Received: from [209.85.223.193] (helo=mail-iw0-f193.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI5mC-0000iQ-UV for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:31:13 +0000 Received: by iwn31 with SMTP id 31so3175397iwn.5 for ; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 11:31:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=SS+8hSc0A6QHfPaGqEvWQLyAMOiqq+ATgq9/HsopeGE=; b=N/XZPSeOwdONbw29D6zjQ7/MQfx/9x9SGjNValNUVSVa3b0IZsuznifoYtvwQaUv6n XXA7hmF/0G/1bjq12u5YPtjLhuunV8uFcnTi+v3NpxaTsXONLFYVvfFynW4C4SG0byoh L74+KrAAvla8h17FMusbxcJB/admRuHr4rkVc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=xzK8WLR50H6mdp/uyDbRqn6fmswh8JzNsAxegxDvqPUL16TiAgns67yKgLYj05RNr6 oAPGvcVHkzAWc4RZ6gwGUm9aDU5Gu8q1/Qwhh1x3kKY7/UTYN9wA4S2njyfDkuDOqJ16 U9v/AuvA+5zIfttpXwq1hzmSk1PMZ5G5X8fgw= Received: by 10.231.156.205 with SMTP id y13mr4031860ibw.27.1260300672071; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 11:31:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from Wastrel.local (c-68-40-195-221.hsd1.mi.comcast.net [68.40.195.221]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 22sm4362465iwn.0.2009.12.08.11.31.10 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 08 Dec 2009 11:31:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4B1EA97D.90302@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 14:31:09 -0500 From: William Allen Simpson User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org CC: Douglas Otis , Paul Vixie , Nicholas Weaver Subject: Re: [dnsext] Question on EDNS MTU... References: <4F28ABE8-76BF-4073-8E9B-840784D5C83B@hopcount.ca> <8C0C26CA-4D43-472E-B166-B53841DEB37F@hopcount.ca> <20091204150953.GA8919@vacation.karoshi.com.> <4AED04A3-47EC-4CBF-A069-2962F4EB9F8A@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <27158.1259946981@nsa.vix.com> <232E6739-9C8B-41B5-AA7C-3D607E8F4A66@mail-abuse.org> In-Reply-To: <232E6739-9C8B-41B5-AA7C-3D607E8F4A66@mail-abuse.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Douglas Otis wrote: > On Dec 4, 2009, at 9:16 AM, Paul Vixie wrote: > >>> From: Nicholas Weaver >>> Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 07:12:58 -0800 >>> >>>> hence the argument for 1220... > > 1280 should be specified as the desired PMTU instead. > Please show your work. >> new recommended reading on this topic: >> >> "Improving TCP Security with Robust Cookies by Perry Metzger, William Allen Simpson, and Paul Vixie" >> >> > There's a problem with your MUA, it sends very long lines without folding. I'll respond to the initial 80 bytes. > This paper alludes to deployment issues for SCTP, but then references > Thank you for noticing this trivial error that passed by 3 levels of editor. The correct reference is [14] (not [15]). > I talked to Joe Touch about TCP's deplorable undetected error rate for bit > TCP is not a link protocol, and *bit* error rates are not within the scope of the specification. That's failed (TPC-style) thinking. For example, Internauts run TCP over IP over PPP over X.25 -- we don't rely on the transport layer for hop by hop link error detection. TCP has a good transport error detection rate. There are a number of papers on this topic with regard to the flawed (TPC) ATM slicing and dicing. We've long had an option to negotiate other checksums for specialty environments. * NB: TPC is shorthand for "The Phone Company". It's a movie reference. SCTP is a TPC product, with all the usual TPC failings. > I also assume TCPCT will not offer a different transport designation with > I have no idea what this means. This is about a TCP option. Perhaps you haven't read *all* the references? > IMHO, progress is not well served by adding another option to TCP, rather > Admittedly, lately I've been ignoring your militant SCTP advocacy. There is no reason to expect that SCTP will pass through the 1999 Apple Airport, the 2004 Airport Express, or even this year's 2009 Airport Extreme Dual Band, as well as Linksys BEFSR41 routers. Thus far, TCPCT has been tested passing through these successfully. This *is* "a fully engineered solution".... From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 8 11:37:24 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBC5A3A66B4; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:37:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.411 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.411 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.916, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MU7nUaWTrz6W; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:37:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74F6A3A63D3; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:37:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI5pD-000127-Tc for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:34:19 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI5pC-00011s-8L for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:34:18 +0000 Received: from stora.ogud.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nB8JYHC1072600 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 14:34:17 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers@stora.ogud.com) Received: (from namedroppers@localhost) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id nB8JYHQt072599 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 14:34:17 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers) Received: from [128.33.1.81] (helo=smtp.bbn.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NHlqI-000DfJ-Gk for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Dec 2009 22:14:06 +0000 Received: from dhcp89-089-110.bbn.com ([128.89.89.110]) by smtp.bbn.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1NHlqH-0006Vc-AM; Mon, 07 Dec 2009 17:14:05 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200912032323.nB3NN4jZ026547@drugs.dv.isc.org> References: <200912032323.nB3NN4jZ026547@drugs.dv.isc.org> Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 17:12:37 -0500 To: Mark Andrews From: Stephen Kent Subject: Re: [dnsext] GOST algorithms in DNSSEC Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: [ Moderators note: Post was moderated, either because it was posted by a non-subscriber, or because it was over 20K. With the massive amount of spam, it is easy to miss and therefore delete relevant posts by non-subscribers. Please fix your subscription addresses. ] > >The numeric id space really isn't limited to 256 values. We just >havn't formalised how to encode those other values yet as there has >not been the need. If/when we get to the point where we will need >to use those other values it will be straight forward to provide >them. 253 and 254 are examples of how this can be done. > >Mark Mark, I think it is prudent to formalize this first. We already have proposals for GOST and a slew of ECDSA and SHA-xxx requests. In the elliptic curve signature arena (e.g., ECDSA) one can get substantial proliferation of algs because the specific cure, as well as key length and hash function all need to be identified. So, as a precaution, I think it wise to nail down the details of how to expand the space first, so that we don't have to say no to folks who come a bit later in the process. If the right answer is to push national algs to the private alg spaces, then that's fine, but I'd like to see this stated explicitly. If the answer is to create a new, extended alg ID space (as Roy indicated) then that sounds OK too, for national algs. I'd recommend using the OID-style extension facility, because these algs often will have OIDs anyway, reducing teh proliferation of IDs. Steve From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 8 12:28:24 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D4273A68CB; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 12:28:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.392 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.392 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.103, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fxVsuOamdMmZ; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 12:28:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 759F03A67F4; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 12:28:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI6Zu-0005Zs-5b for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 20:22:34 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI6Zr-0005ZZ-HY for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 20:22:31 +0000 Received: from [10.31.201.23] (gatt.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.6]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nB8KMOdh073146; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 15:22:25 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 15:06:29 -0500 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Edward Lewis Subject: Re: [dnsext] GOST algorithms in DNSSEC Cc: ed.lewis@neustar.biz Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: At 17:11 -0500 12/7/09, Stephen Kent wrote: >Whoops. I was not aware of the two private alg facilities in 4304. If the >intent is to allocation IDs in these two spaces (which do not suffer from >the ID space size limits that concern me) to national algorithms, I think >that would be OK. Is that the plan? To date, the term "national algorithm" has not been defined in the context of DNSSEC, nor how that is different from "internet-wide." That comment should underscore the remainder of my reply. >So you think that the private algorithm space ought not be used for >national algorithms like GOST? Yes, it ought not be used. >Do you recommend allocating the current >space to everyone who requests an alg ID, and then flow into the extended >ID space? Yes, so long as they have a detailed specification that allows for interoperability. >I thought it might be preferable to reserve the current space >for algs that are agreed upon as suitable for Internet-wide implementation, >and move national algs to the some form of extended space. DNS has never seen a serious run on numbers for any field, despite constant paranoia that a run "will happen." (Okay, the 2-bit label type is tight but then again, it only had 4 possible values.) I don't know how to word my response to differentiating between "Internet-wide" and "national algorithms" other than to say "what?" Other than resorting to examining laws of countries, how can one tell one from the other? Math is math. (In the 80's I was asked to define Unix in a standards-based way. What made an operating system a Unix system. Turns out the answer wasn't in the code or any technology, it was in the trademark.) >I think RSA-SHA2 is qualitatively different, if one views the two IDs >(8 & 10) as Internet-wide (vs. national) alg IDs. I don't view the case of RSA-SHAx and GOST as different. Crypto is crypto. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis NeuStar You can leave a voice message at +1-571-434-5468 As with IPv6, the problem with the deployment of frictionless surfaces is that they're not getting traction. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 8 12:40:14 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25C513A690C; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 12:40:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.105 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.105 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.210, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_55=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tTPV72ua1n3l; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 12:40:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 301F23A66B4; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 12:40:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI6nH-0006fl-7O for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 20:36:23 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI6nE-0006f6-2G for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 20:36:20 +0000 Received: from [10.31.201.23] (ns.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.6]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nB8KZi42073253; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 15:35:45 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4B1E3ECD.4050706@ucd.ie> References: <4B1E3ECD.4050706@ucd.ie> Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 15:25:09 -0500 To: "Niall O'Reilly" From: Edward Lewis Subject: Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME Cc: Edward Lewis , vixie@isc.org, "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org" , Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie, Vaggelis Segredakis , "'Sotiris Panaretou'" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: At 11:55 +0000 12/8/09, Niall O'Reilly wrote: > The idea of giving DNAME "weak" re-directing semantics for the > owner node, over-ridden by "stronger" resource records, seems > to be significant only at a zone apex, where it would be needed > to preserve (possible) existing use of DNAME to cover the > descendants of the apex node. A while back I described CNAME as "terminal query redirection" in that it said "go here and that is that" (with the possibility that "here" also had a redirection command) and DNAME as "non-terminal query redirection" in the sense that it said "go to the place that is the result of your query and this instruction and that is that." Non-terminal in the sense you had more work to do to figure out where to try next. I got that analogy from the NAPTR record and it's choice of having the recipient follow the REGEXP exclusive-or REPLACEMENT field. (RFC 3761, 2.4.1, Flags defines the "U" flag in the ENUM context.) It's analogous in the sense that when the U flag is present and the REGEXP is applied to the appropriate string, the application is "done DNSing" and moves on to locating the service. No "U" flag, the REPLACEMENT domain name is used for the next step - although as far as I know no ENUM proposal has successfully proposed using that feature. (Too scary! Just like DNAME.) Starting with the view that DNAME then is essentially CNAME on performance-enhancing drugs, then looking at the extension done to CNAME seems like it could be done to DNAME. For CNAME we just said "if the QNAME has a CNAME and the QTYPE matches (word chosen to cover ANY) one (or more) types at the owner, we stop there, otherwise chase the CNAME." Because CNAME is a name-hogger (nothing else can be there, except the DNSSEC stuff), essentially this comes down to QTYPE=CNAME or ANY or DNSSEC-type. DNAME is not a name-hogger so we just recognize that the same rule (whatever matches) applies here but looks a bit different. That *philosophically* is the extension, or where the idea came from. > I'm convinced that placement of DNAME at a zone cut (in > conjunction with NS records) makes no sense, as this would > involve (as DNAME is currently understood) hijacking on the part > of the parent of all the descendants of the apex of the > delegated zone. With the proposed extended DNAME semantics, > such hijacking would simply become more thorough. Yeah, a DNAME can't be a cut-point (as opposed to a non-delegation name or an apex). For the same reason you can't have a TXT at a cut-point, too. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis NeuStar You can leave a voice message at +1-571-434-5468 As with IPv6, the problem with the deployment of frictionless surfaces is that they're not getting traction. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 8 12:52:55 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ABF23A697E; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 12:52:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.048 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.048 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CABvpu9FbYBq; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 12:52:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D4993A692C; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 12:52:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI6zW-0007rs-F4 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 20:49:02 +0000 Received: from [193.1.169.37] (helo=cali.ucd.ie) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI6zU-0007qe-B6 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 20:49:00 +0000 Received: from conversion-daemon.cali.ucd.ie by cali.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.03 (built Sep 22 2005)) id <0KUC00L01PS9MF00@cali.ucd.ie> (original mail from Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie) for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 20:48:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.0.1.177] (bark.no8.be [83.141.81.52]) by cali.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.03 (built Sep 22 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0KUC00B2XPTLA700@cali.ucd.ie>; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 20:48:57 +0000 (GMT) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 20:48:57 +0000 From: Niall O'Reilly Subject: Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME In-reply-to: To: "Rose, Scott W." Cc: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org" , Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie Message-id: <4B1EBBB9.9060305@ucd.ie> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 09:33:27 -0500, Rose, Scott W. wrote: > On 12/8/09 6:55 AM, "Niall O'Reilly" wrote: >> >> I'm convinced that placement of DNAME at a zone cut (in >> conjunction with NS records) makes no sense, as this would >> involve (as DNAME is currently understood) hijacking on the part >> of the parent of all the descendants of the apex of the >> delegated zone. With the proposed extended DNAME semantics, >> such hijacking would simply become more thorough. > > I don't think this is what is being advocated, but instead give DNAME some > CNAME-like features. The restriction of having a DNAME at the same owner > name as a NS RR (except at the zone apex) will still be part of dname-bis. Thanks for the clarification. I'm sorry that my careless choice of words made you feel it was needed; I ought to have begun that paragraph, "I realize that ...". With apologies, Niall O'Reilly From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 8 13:13:29 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 022623A6A83; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 13:13:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.048 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.048 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GazEwqVDFMbP; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 13:12:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53D5E3A6A6F; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 13:12:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI7I7-0009xN-5c for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 21:08:15 +0000 Received: from [193.1.169.37] (helo=cali.ucd.ie) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI7I4-0009x5-Iu for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 21:08:12 +0000 Received: from conversion-daemon.cali.ucd.ie by cali.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.03 (built Sep 22 2005)) id <0KUC00C01QOZH400@cali.ucd.ie> (original mail from Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie) for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 21:08:11 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.0.1.177] (bark.no8.be [83.141.81.52]) by cali.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.03 (built Sep 22 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0KUC00B3EQPMA700@cali.ucd.ie>; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 21:08:10 +0000 (GMT) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 21:08:10 +0000 From: Niall O'Reilly Subject: Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME In-reply-to: To: Edward Lewis Cc: vixie@isc.org, "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org" , Vaggelis Segredakis , 'Sotiris Panaretou' Message-id: <4B1EC03A.101@ucd.ie> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <4B1E3ECD.4050706@ucd.ie> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Edward Lewis wrote: > A while back I described CNAME as "terminal query redirection" in that > it said "go here and that is that" (with the possibility that "here" > also had a redirection command) and DNAME as "non-terminal query > redirection" in the sense that it said "go to the place that is the > result of your query and this instruction and that is that." > Non-terminal in the sense you had more work to do to figure out where to > try next. I noticed that back then, but understood it in a subtly different, but perhaps equivalent sense. I like the terminology, either way! /Niall From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Tue Dec 8 13:31:09 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D747D3A684F for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 13:31:09 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Reseller ; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 13:31:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from 088156184161.wejherowo.vectranet.pl (088156184161.wejherowo.vectranet.pl [88.156.184.161]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46DBE3A680F for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 13:31:02 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Reseller To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Dear dnsext-archive@ietf.org receive 80% OFF on Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091208213102.46DBE3A680F@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 13:31:02 -0800 (PST) Pfizer ® Newsletter
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Tue Dec 8 13:31:44 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91C593A684F for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 13:31:43 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Reseller ; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 13:31:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from 088156184161.wejherowo.vectranet.pl (088156184161.wejherowo.vectranet.pl [88.156.184.161]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D680C3A680F for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 13:31:34 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Reseller To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Dear dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org receive 80% OFF on Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091208213134.D680C3A680F@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 13:31:34 -0800 (PST) Pfizer ® Newsletter
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 8 15:02:52 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE8213A694E; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 15:02:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.471 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.471 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.261, BAYES_05=-1.11, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_UK=1.749, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wVG5sXzmBYzJ; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 15:02:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93A423A6919; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 15:02:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI8zH-000JOZ-V0 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 22:56:55 +0000 Received: from [131.111.8.130] (helo=ppsw-0.csi.cam.ac.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI8zD-000JNo-VF for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 22:56:52 +0000 X-Cam-AntiVirus: no malware found X-Cam-SpamDetails: not scanned X-Cam-ScannerInfo: http://www.cam.ac.uk/cs/email/scanner/ Received: from hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.8.51]:57922) by ppsw-0.csi.cam.ac.uk (smtp.hermes.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.150]:25) with esmtpa (EXTERNAL:fanf2) id 1NI8zB-00085X-2K (Exim 4.70) (return-path ); Tue, 08 Dec 2009 22:56:49 +0000 Received: from fanf2 (helo=localhost) by hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk (hermes.cam.ac.uk) with local-esmtp id 1NI8zB-0006JA-Mj (Exim 4.67) (return-path ); Tue, 08 Dec 2009 22:56:49 +0000 Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 22:56:49 +0000 From: Tony Finch X-X-Sender: fanf2@hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk To: Alfred H?nes cc: kcd@chrysler.com, namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME In-Reply-To: <200912080153.CAA02286@TR-Sys.de> Message-ID: References: <200912080153.CAA02286@TR-Sys.de> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (LSU 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=UTF-8 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Tue, 8 Dec 2009, Alfred H?nes wrote: > you are right; I have been too hastily; the restriction on non-CNAME > in [E]SMTP does _not_ apply to the primary email addresses, It does not now, but it did apply in the past (see RFC 1123 section 5.2.2) and some SMTP senders still implement that old requirement. However SMTP receivers have not cared either way for a very long time (if ever). Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch http://dotat.at/ GERMAN BIGHT HUMBER: SOUTHWEST 5 TO 7. MODERATE OR ROUGH. SQUALLY SHOWERS. MODERATE OR GOOD. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 8 15:28:50 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 484A93A683D; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 15:28:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.909 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.070, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, RCVD_IN_NJABL_PROXY=1.643, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aPIxUroSx940; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 15:28:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 531A83A682B; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 15:28:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI9QD-000LgJ-Je for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 23:24:45 +0000 Received: from [131.112.32.132] (helo=necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NI9QB-000Lfy-2S for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 23:24:43 +0000 Received: (qmail 62364 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2009 00:03:47 -0000 Received: from softbank219001188006.bbtec.net (HELO necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp) (219.1.188.6) by necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp with SMTP; 9 Dec 2009 00:03:47 -0000 Message-ID: <4B1EE006.8010603@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 08:23:50 +0900 From: Masataka Ohta User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; ja-JP; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: ja, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com CC: Joe Abley , Douglas Otis , Paul Vixie , "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org WG" , Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.franken.de, William Allen Simpson Subject: Re: [dnsext] Question on EDNS MTU... References: <4F28ABE8-76BF-4073-8E9B-840784D5C83B@hopcount.ca> <8C0C26CA-4D43-472E-B166-B53841DEB37F@hopcount.ca> <20091204150953.GA8919@vacation.karoshi.com.> <4AED04A3-47EC-4CBF-A069-2962F4EB9F8A@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <27158.1259946981@nsa.vix.com> <232E6739-9C8B-41B5-AA7C-3D607E8F4A66@mail-abuse.org> <20091208154147.GB21549@vacation.karoshi.com.> <181CD333-B3D3-49FA-BC58-828620E40B86@hopcount.ca> <20091208185202.GA23001@vacation.karoshi.com.> In-Reply-To: <20091208185202.GA23001@vacation.karoshi.com.> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com wrote: > i can not suggest anything about your undertanding of the > spec or your interpretation of same. Historically, 1280B of IPv6 minimum MTU was chosen considering 1500B MTU of Ethernet and doubly nested IPsec tunneling. I was at an IPng WG meeting when Seteve Deering stated so. However, it was also assumed that PMTUD had worked. That is, it was expected that in an exceptional case of PMTU of a tunnel is 1280B or so, link fragmentation within the tunnel could be used. RFC2473 says: Prepending a tunnel header increases the size of a packet, therefore a tunnel packet resulting from the encapsulation of an IPv6 original packet may require fragmentation. So far, it is a pure fantasy of IPv6. The reality, however, is that PMTUD does not always work and tunnel MTU must be assumed to be just 1280B, which means MTU of tunnel payload should be smaller than 1280B or fragmentation is used within the tunnel. Thanks to poor specificaiton of ICMPv6, ISPs have to filter some of ICMPv6 messages, which means many ISPs will filter all of them. Note that, in the RFC2473, wisdom of IPv4 [RFC791]: > In the above procedure each fragment (except the last) was made > the maximum allowable size. An alternative might produce less > than the maximum size datagrams. For example, one could implement > a fragmentation procedure that repeatly divided large datagrams in > half until the resulting fragments were less than the maximum > transmission unit size. is forgotten, which causes a lot of unnecessary fragmentation. Finally, note that 1280B of MTU does not guarantee 1024B message size without fragmentation, not even 512B, because IPv6 header option can be infinitely lengthy. The question, then, is "Do you still want to use IPv6?" and my answer is "No, I don't". Masataka Ohta PS Of course, there is no point of using DNSSEC, partly because, only a single key (256B for 2048bit key) needs to be carried in a message even during key role over if DNS extension for public key cryptography was properly specified and partly because PKI is merely weakly secure. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 8 17:04:38 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E41613A6909; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 17:04:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Mfc19rn8gxOD; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 17:04:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AB483A69AA; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 17:04:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NIAsr-0003Bg-FQ for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 09 Dec 2009 00:58:25 +0000 Received: from [168.61.5.27] (helo=harry.mail-abuse.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NIAsi-0003B4-LI for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Dec 2009 00:58:16 +0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (gateway1.sjc.mail-abuse.org [168.61.5.81]) by harry.mail-abuse.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 246DBA9443B; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 00:58:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [dnsext] Question on EDNS MTU... Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Douglas Otis In-Reply-To: <4B1EA97D.90302@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 16:58:15 -0800 Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, Paul Vixie , Nicholas Weaver Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <64371B30-9B46-43A2-8B56-D7DD06B0166E@mail-abuse.org> References: <4F28ABE8-76BF-4073-8E9B-840784D5C83B@hopcount.ca> <8C0C26CA-4D43-472E-B166-B53841DEB37F@hopcount.ca> <20091204150953.GA8919@vacation.karoshi.com.> <4AED04A3-47EC-4CBF-A069-2962F4EB9F8A@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <27158.1259946981@nsa.vix.com> <232E6739-9C8B-41B5-AA7C-3D607E8F4A66@mail-abuse.org> <4B1EA97D.90302@gmail.com> To: William Allen Simpson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Dec 8, 2009, at 11:31 AM, William Allen Simpson wrote: > Douglas Otis wrote: >> On Dec 4, 2009, at 9:16 AM, Paul Vixie wrote: >>>> From: Nicholas Weaver >>>> Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 07:12:58 -0800 >>>>=20 >>>>> hence the argument for 1220... >> 1280 should be specified as the desired PMTU instead. > Please show your work. See RFC2460 Section 5. (dealing with IPv6/1280 -> IPv4/ <1280) ,--- In response to an IPv6 packet that is sent to an IPv4 destination (i.e., a packet that undergoes translation from IPv6 to IPv4), the originating IPv6 node may receive an ICMP Packet Too Big message reporting a Next-Hop MTU less than 1280. In that case, the IPv6 node is not required to reduce the size of subsequent packets to less than 1280, but must include a Fragment header in those packets so that the IPv6-to-IPv4 translating router can obtain a suitable Identification value to use in resulting IPv4 fragments. Note that this means the payload may have to be reduced to 1232 octets (1280 minus 40 for the IPv6 header and 8 for the Fragment header), and smaller still if additional extension headers are used. '--- Additional headers will impact a maximal DNS message size, which could guide a recommended DNS message size fallback of say 1232 or less, depending upon other extension headers being used. =20 >>> new recommended reading on this topic: >>> "Improving TCP Security with Robust Cookies by Perry Metzger, >>> William Allen Simpson, and Paul Vixie" >>> = >> This paper alludes to deployment issues for SCTP, but then references > Thank you for noticing this trivial error that passed by 3 levels of = editor. > The correct reference is [14] (not [15]). Was the concern in regard to dealing with IP address reassignments = within a mobile environment? >> I talked to Joe Touch about TCP's deplorable undetected error rate = for bit > TCP is not a link protocol, and *bit* error rates are not within the = scope > of the specification. That's failed (TPC-style) thinking. For = example, > Internauts run TCP over IP over PPP over X.25 -- we don't rely on the > transport layer for hop by hop link error detection. You cut this at bit specific errors. Don't blame the telcos. The = concern was=20 not about bit error rates, but was in regard to common error sources not detected by TCP's checksum algorithm. This algorithm is highly = susceptible to not detecting common errors occurring on the same bus-specific bit location. Likely sources could be due to weak drivers within parallel interfaces for memory or network devices found within typical Internet related components. =20 In addition, the Ethernet link error detection rate degrades when = applied over jumbo frames. The SCTP polynomial restores error detection rates=20 for jumbo frames as well. As more data is exchange and stored over the Internet, error detection becomes increasingly important. An algorithm=20= that fails to detect 1 in 50 common bus related errors should not be=20 considered acceptable, and not everything within a DNSSEC message will have been signed either. =20 =20 > TCP has a good transport error detection rate. There are a number of = papers > on this topic with regard to the flawed (TPC) ATM slicing and dicing. = We've > long had an option to negotiate other checksums for specialty = environments. > * NB: TPC is shorthand for "The Phone Company". It's a movie = reference. > SCTP is a TPC product, with all the usual TPC failings. SCTP is an IETF product designed to meet reliability and DDoS = requirements necessary to support telco related applications as well as others. SCTP originally was intended to be carried over UDP, but was given its own = transport designation by the IETF to help in breaking out of the TCP/UDP box. = SCTP includes modes that benefit applications like DNS as well. >> I also assume TCPCT will not offer a different transport designation = with > I have no idea what this means. This is about a TCP option. Perhaps = you > haven't read *all* the references? An option working with legacy equipment is good. The concern was about=20= mixed TCP and TCPCT support. The intended use of this extension is to allow rapid dropping of TCP connections without enduring a TIME-WAIT period (and likely not always responding to retries.) The eventual = behavior provided has not been fully realized or considered. However, it seems=20= unlikely to improve data integrity or stability compared against SCTP. As a side note: Advocating for SCTP should not cause one to be described as militant. Review data presented by Jonathan Stone and Craig Partridge regarding the high number of undetected Internet errors titled "When The CRC and TCP Checksum Disagree" available at portal.acm.org. =20 -Doug From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Tue Dec 8 22:24:18 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07F3F3A68E3 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 22:24:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -60.66 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-60.66 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MANGLED_OFF=2.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, URIBL_BLACK=20, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TYm8nDDFWvYY for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 22:24:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from lgc20251-1475.logic.bm (lgc20251-1475.logic.bm [207.228.148.61]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E9633A6ABA for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 22:24:03 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA Store To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Member dnsext-archive@ietf.org get 80% 0FF on ALL Pfizer. 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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Tue Dec 8 22:25:38 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B94B3A6ACC for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 22:25:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -50.66 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-50.66 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MANGLED_OFF=2.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MT1X4T4FJ35G for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 22:25:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from lgc20251-1475.logic.bm (lgc20251-1475.logic.bm [207.228.148.61]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07C4E3A68FD for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 22:25:29 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA Store To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Member dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org get 80% 0FF on ALL Pfizer. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091209062530.07C4E3A68FD@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 22:25:29 -0800 (PST) News Today
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 8 23:09:40 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2724C3A691F; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 23:09:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 4.136 X-Spam-Level: **** X-Spam-Status: No, score=4.136 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-1.11, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_RU=0.595, HELO_MISMATCH_RU=3.1, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gGfaC9dzXIVW; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 23:09:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 601003A68F5; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 23:09:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NIGZc-0008MD-W1 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 09 Dec 2009 07:02:56 +0000 Received: from [89.188.97.107] (helo=mx.cryptocom.ru) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NIGZZ-0008Jg-MD for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Dec 2009 07:02:53 +0000 Received: from [10.51.22.241] (reedcat.lan.cryptocom.ru [10.51.22.241]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.cryptocom.ru (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E54146534; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 10:02:50 +0300 (MSK) Message-ID: <4B1F4B9A.6060308@cryptocom.ru> Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 10:02:50 +0300 From: Basil Dolmatov User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Abley CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] GOST algorithms in DNSSEC References: <2BBE98CD-9DC1-4843-9886-A34D7CA4BBD4@hopcount.ca> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Joe Abley пишет: > On 2009-12-04, at 15:08, Paul Hoffman wrote: > >> Quite right. Note, however, that the main motivation for the other two documents was people who had no-so-positive feelings for the GOST suite (the very limited implementation experience, the known weakness in the hash algorithm, and so on). > > I think if people have concerns about GOST as a cryptosystem, they should feel very free not to use it. However, that seems like no kind of reason to object to it being standardised in the interests of interop between those who do not have such concerns. > Moreover, it is in the interests of those who do not have any other legal options except using these algorithms in DNSSec. dol@ From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Wed Dec 9 00:07:04 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A3EC3A6AC7 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 00:07:04 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: <7lQ4dukL-3ou> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From:VIAGRA \256 Pfizer Inc.; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 00:07:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from bzq-79-181-137-236.red.bezeqint.net (bzq-79-181-137-236.red.bezeqint.net [79.181.137.236]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 233603A68B0 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 00:07:02 -0800 (PST) From:VIAGRA ® Pfizer Inc. To:dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject:Dear dnsext-archive@ietf.org 77% OFF on Pfizer. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091209080703.233603A68B0@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 00:07:02 -0800 (PST) Dear dnsext-archive@ietf.org
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Dec 9 00:24:55 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 661B73A69E5; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 00:24:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.286 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.286 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.791, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id toJVWS1d461k; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 00:24:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D19423A6767; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 00:24:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NIHlH-000FeB-Ob for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 09 Dec 2009 08:19:03 +0000 Received: from [209.85.217.178] (helo=mail-gx0-f178.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NIHlC-000Fdi-Pc for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Dec 2009 08:18:58 +0000 Received: by gxk26 with SMTP id 26so1256443gxk.1 for ; Wed, 09 Dec 2009 00:18:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-enigmail-version:openpgp:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=8whkxT4SjO7+k/wSiZhKvfTz8RYOErXJByPjgulhB3I=; b=xJoXJkAjuHN/PFDKyYNKRcyyKRGTvHBHV4Zy4gbS5zPllB2fAkqjhhPmyIw9LkiZam RxSsJ5N/JnqLzdzAzaLNHOXJHP3YWy7gi4E1SX3TuvBfJSu9fi3V+oUVzViUK1W4Ox17 hhXG2s3jTgYhucrJkLInTvWBgO2MRzIFYbp3M= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:openpgp:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=t1+2Tm62igjoe/3Jrkoem1Vy6ElGfV7WJIU6Bbcdyt1SqUf4wqR81uhudnX7Uq2xV2 ZOJLGUDHKfQS2F1PIOB9ZyFCYU/R8VaD2URyLOamVBItB5c17QLgoOcl7ucETj3G55LI GoLB6XOq/EN4iB8hdgA2rf7IkEBLyAY0VUAYo= Received: by 10.150.25.5 with SMTP id 5mr15804707yby.295.1260346737371; Wed, 09 Dec 2009 00:18:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? (205-133-17-190.fibertel.com.ar [190.17.133.205]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 8sm2726814ywg.4.2009.12.09.00.18.54 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 09 Dec 2009 00:18:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4B1F5D6D.8020406@gont.com.ar> Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 05:18:53 -0300 From: Fernando Gont User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: William Allen Simpson CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, perry@piermont.com, vixie@isc.org Subject: [dnsext] Re: Some comments on "Improving TCP security with robust cookies" References: <4B19E27A.5070201@gont.com.ar> <4B1A50E5.4020707@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4B1A50E5.4020707@gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D076FFF1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Hello, William, Thanks for your response. Comments inline... >> Here are some comments on the aforementioned publication: >> > Nice to know Usenix ;Login: is winging its way to subscribers.... Well, Paul Vixie announced the paper on the mailing list ;-) (namedroppers) >>> However, SYN cookies can only be used in emergencies; they are >>> incompatible with most TCP options. As there is insufficient space in >>> the sequence number, the cookie is not considered cryptologically >>> secure. >> >> There was an idea by FreeBSD's Andre Opperman to use TCP timestamps to >> store more bits for the cookies. That would make cookies more >> TCP-options-friendly. >> > That was implemented in many TCP stacks, and only gives you timestamps -- > not SACK, nor the new "TCP User Timeout Option", nor anything else. No. It gives you timestamps, SACK, wscale, and more. See http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tcpm/current/msg02251.html > Syn cookies were clever, and marginally better than nothing, but not as > useful as a new option. I still want to take a look at the draft TCPCT spec. >>> TCPCT requires the TCP Timestamps Option [5], which in turn requires >>> Path MTU Discovery [24] and that the Don’t Fragment (DF) bit is >>> always set in the IP header. >> >> Do TCP timestamps really require PMTUD? >> > Yes, please re-read the specification. Implementation of PMTUD is "required" in the upcoming rev of rfc1323, but not in RFC 1323 itself. -- hence my comment. (I had not checked the aforementioned I-D) >> Sadly enough, I doubt that the reason for which TCP cookies had not >> been published in the RFC series had to do with their technical >> properties. The IETF has largely ignored everything that has to do with >> IP or TCP security. > > The official reason was the technical properties. But you're preaching to > the choir here. > > I still remember when Steve Kent refused to allow IP security to have a > BOF (let alone Working Group). And the reason for that was....? >> Well known issues such as IPv4 source routing have >> not only been ignored, but later rehashed in "new" protocols (e.g., RHT0 >> in IPv6). > > Hey, you don't need to tell me, none of that was in the original IPv6. Overall, part of my feedback was meant as comments to the list... (i.e., I did not assume any of the above was "new" to you). >> This situation has been one of the main motivations behind the project >> on TCP and IP security I carried out on behalf of UK CPNI. >> >> FWIW, >> TCP security: >> http://www.cpni.gov.uk/Docs/tn-03-09-security-assessment-TCP.pdf >> IP security: http://www.cpni.gov.uk/Docs/InternetProtocol.pdf >> > We thank you, and reference your paper. Yes, and thanks for that. Again, this one was input to the list, rather than the authors of the "robust cookies" paper. >>> TCP Cookie Transactions (TCPCT) bolster the defense against such >>> attacks. A cookie option is exchanged as the connection is opened. >>> These cookies are larger and more unpredictable than addresses, >>> ports, sequence numbers, and timestamps. They validate the connection >>> between two parties. >> >> While port numbers, sequence numbers, timestamps, etc., *are* >> predictable in many implementations, they need not be so. In general, >> RFC1948-like schemes should be applied to all these fields. >> > That's true. But in the reality-based community, that hasn't happened. I'd say most implementations randomize their ephemeral ports. I would say most randomize their sequence numbers, too. Some (e.g. OpenBSD) randomize the timestamps, too. >> Note: Figure 1 in your document is incorrect. Only the end-point >> performing the active close (i.e., starting the connection-termination >> phase) will remain in the TIME-WAIT state. The only scenario in which >> both endpoints remain in the TIME-WAIT state is that of "simultaneous >> close", which is generally unlikely. >> > Interesting comment. But in the reality-based community, that's not how > folks have implemented. Are you implying that in mosts stacks, both end-points of the connection end up in the TIME-WAIT state? >> As a meta comment, I'd like to see more details about TCPCT... like a >> draft specification, or something. >> > The first 5 drafty drafts were completed last August among a select group > of implementors. The last time that I tried to submit to internet-drafts, > it was closed for IETF. Since there's renewed interest, I'll spin another > draft this weekend. I look forward to it. > The first experimental code should be in the next Linux release, but it's > incomplete due to great difficulty working through their arcane process. Is it available online? Thanks! Kind regards, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@acm.org PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Dec 9 00:40:47 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84C883A67F8; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 00:40:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 4.962 X-Spam-Level: **** X-Spam-Status: No, score=4.962 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.74, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_RU=0.595, HELO_IS_SMALL6=0.556, HELO_MISMATCH_RU=3.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id liIminoVvjjn; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 00:40:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4FAB3A67DB; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 00:40:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NII1T-000Gvn-5s for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 09 Dec 2009 08:35:47 +0000 Received: from [62.113.86.202] (helo=aha.ru) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NII1Q-000GvF-IJ for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Dec 2009 08:35:44 +0000 Received: from [195.212.29.187] (account dburk@burkov.aha.ru HELO [9.157.116.93]) by backend13.aha.ru (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3.11) with ESMTPSA id 398573931; Wed, 09 Dec 2009 11:35:39 +0300 Message-ID: <4B1F615A.4000108@burkov.aha.ru> Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 11:35:38 +0300 From: Dmitry Burkov User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Basil Dolmatov CC: Joe Abley , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] GOST algorithms in DNSSEC References: <2BBE98CD-9DC1-4843-9886-A34D7CA4BBD4@hopcount.ca> <4B1F4B9A.6060308@cryptocom.ru> In-Reply-To: <4B1F4B9A.6060308@cryptocom.ru> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1251; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Basil Dolmatov wrote: > > > Joe Abley ïèøåò: >> On 2009-12-04, at 15:08, Paul Hoffman wrote: >> >>> Quite right. Note, however, that the main motivation for the other >>> two documents was people who had no-so-positive feelings for the >>> GOST suite (the very limited implementation experience, the known >>> weakness in the hash algorithm, and so on). >> >> I think if people have concerns about GOST as a cryptosystem, they >> should feel very free not to use it. However, that seems like no kind >> of reason to object to it being standardised in the interests of >> interop between those who do not have such concerns. >> > Moreover, it is in the interests of those who do not have any other > legal options except using these algorithms in DNSSec. Also it will be in interest of all to validate GOST-signed zones. It was discussed at the beginning of this process. Seems some explanations were missed. Dima > > > dol@ > > > From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Dec 9 01:29:39 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B7863A688F; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 01:29:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xs9CpLMvsBNl; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 01:29:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 525B13A6A8D; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 01:29:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NIIlT-000MkX-Pc for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 09 Dec 2009 09:23:19 +0000 Received: from [2001:4900:1:392:213:20ff:fe1b:3bfe] (helo=monster.hopcount.ca) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NIIlR-000Mk7-ET for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Dec 2009 09:23:17 +0000 Received: from [41.208.171.41] (helo=[192.168.75.131]) by monster.hopcount.ca with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NIIlK-000CPW-Tj; Wed, 09 Dec 2009 09:23:13 +0000 Subject: Re: [dnsext] Question on EDNS MTU... Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Joe Abley In-Reply-To: <64371B30-9B46-43A2-8B56-D7DD06B0166E@mail-abuse.org> Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 09:23:01 +0000 Cc: William Allen Simpson , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, Paul Vixie , Nicholas Weaver Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <5A867AD4-04DC-480D-99BD-F6EC91889681@hopcount.ca> References: <4F28ABE8-76BF-4073-8E9B-840784D5C83B@hopcount.ca> <8C0C26CA-4D43-472E-B166-B53841DEB37F@hopcount.ca> <20091204150953.GA8919@vacation.karoshi.com.> <4AED04A3-47EC-4CBF-A069-2962F4EB9F8A@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <27158.1259946981@nsa.vix.com> <232E6739-9C8B-41B5-AA7C-3D607E8F4A66@mail-abuse.org> <4B1EA97D.90302@gmail.com> <64371B30-9B46-43A2-8B56-D7DD06B0166E@mail-abuse.org> To: Douglas Otis X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 41.208.171.41 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jabley@hopcount.ca X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on monster.hopcount.ca); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 2009-12-09, at 00:58, Douglas Otis wrote: > See RFC2460 Section 5. > (dealing with IPv6/1280 -> IPv4/ <1280) > ,--- > In response to an IPv6 packet that is sent to an IPv4 destination > (i.e., a packet that undergoes translation from IPv6 to IPv4), the > originating IPv6 node may receive an ICMP Packet Too Big message > reporting a Next-Hop MTU less than 1280. In that case, the IPv6 node > is not required to reduce the size of subsequent packets to less than > 1280, but must include a Fragment header in those packets so that the > IPv6-to-IPv4 translating router can obtain a suitable Identification > value to use in resulting IPv4 fragments. "IPv6-to-IPv4 translating router" is fiction though, right? From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Dec 9 02:58:47 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AF1428C185; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 02:58:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z9-0KfJegFg7; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 02:58:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C694828C108; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 02:58:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NIK9k-0005SU-4E for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 09 Dec 2009 10:52:28 +0000 Received: from [2001:748:301::2] (helo=shinjuku.zaphods.net) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NIK9h-0005S3-4N for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Dec 2009 10:52:25 +0000 Received: from zaphodb by shinjuku.zaphods.net with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NIK9e-00018O-Sg; Wed, 09 Dec 2009 11:52:22 +0100 Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 11:52:22 +0100 From: Stefan Schmidt To: Joe Abley Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Question on EDNS MTU... Message-ID: <20091209105222.GC27247@zaphods.net> References: <4F28ABE8-76BF-4073-8E9B-840784D5C83B@hopcount.ca> <8C0C26CA-4D43-472E-B166-B53841DEB37F@hopcount.ca> <20091204150953.GA8919@vacation.karoshi.com.> <4AED04A3-47EC-4CBF-A069-2962F4EB9F8A@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <27158.1259946981@nsa.vix.com> <232E6739-9C8B-41B5-AA7C-3D607E8F4A66@mail-abuse.org> <4B1EA97D.90302@gmail.com> <64371B30-9B46-43A2-8B56-D7DD06B0166E@mail-abuse.org> <5A867AD4-04DC-480D-99BD-F6EC91889681@hopcount.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5A867AD4-04DC-480D-99BD-F6EC91889681@hopcount.ca> X-Origin-AS: AS5430 X-NCC-nic-hdl: ZAP-RIPE User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Wed, Dec 09, 2009 at 09:23:01AM +0000, Joe Abley wrote: > "IPv6-to-IPv4 translating router" is fiction though, right? I fear it is not. -> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-softwire-dual-stack-lite-02 -> http://www.techworld.com.au/article/253932/comcast_pitches_ipv6_strategy_standards_body -> http://gogoware.gogo6.com/4105/description.asp?product_id=178 Stefan -- There is hopeful symbolism in the fact that flags don't wave in a vacuum. - Arthur C. 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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Wed Dec 9 03:28:28 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28B893A69C7 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 03:28:28 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: Pfizer \256 Customer Servi[...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -22.536 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-22.536 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_TELESP=1.245, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_RECV_SPAM_DOMN02=1.666, SARE_UNI=0.591, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YQh0vFih8Tap for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 03:28:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201-95-77-200.dsl.telesp.net.br (201-95-77-200.dsl.telesp.net.br [201.95.77.200]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A39C3A69DA for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 03:28:17 -0800 (PST) From: Pfizer ® Customer Service To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Special offer dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org receive 70% OFF on Pfizer. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091209112818.2A39C3A69DA@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 03:28:17 -0800 (PST) Pfizer ® 80% OFF
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Dec 9 04:06:47 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2C473A672F; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 04:06:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eDw1DNx4FPwU; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 04:06:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DF8B3A67F3; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 04:06:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NILCT-000Bdr-6l for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 09 Dec 2009 11:59:21 +0000 Received: from [198.32.6.68] (helo=vacation.karoshi.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NILCQ-000Bda-Cz for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Dec 2009 11:59:19 +0000 Received: from karoshi.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by vacation.karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id nB9BujCK031328; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 11:56:45 GMT Received: (from bmanning@localhost) by karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id nB9BugjU031326; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 11:56:42 GMT Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 11:56:42 +0000 From: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com To: Joe Abley Cc: Douglas Otis , William Allen Simpson , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, Paul Vixie , Nicholas Weaver Subject: Re: [dnsext] Question on EDNS MTU... Message-ID: <20091209115642.GC30430@vacation.karoshi.com.> References: <4F28ABE8-76BF-4073-8E9B-840784D5C83B@hopcount.ca> <8C0C26CA-4D43-472E-B166-B53841DEB37F@hopcount.ca> <20091204150953.GA8919@vacation.karoshi.com.> <4AED04A3-47EC-4CBF-A069-2962F4EB9F8A@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <27158.1259946981@nsa.vix.com> <232E6739-9C8B-41B5-AA7C-3D607E8F4A66@mail-abuse.org> <4B1EA97D.90302@gmail.com> <64371B30-9B46-43A2-8B56-D7DD06B0166E@mail-abuse.org> <5A867AD4-04DC-480D-99BD-F6EC91889681@hopcount.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5A867AD4-04DC-480D-99BD-F6EC91889681@hopcount.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Wed, Dec 09, 2009 at 09:23:01AM +0000, Joe Abley wrote: > > On 2009-12-09, at 00:58, Douglas Otis wrote: > > > See RFC2460 Section 5. > > (dealing with IPv6/1280 -> IPv4/ <1280) > > ,--- > > In response to an IPv6 packet that is sent to an IPv4 destination > > (i.e., a packet that undergoes translation from IPv6 to IPv4), the > > originating IPv6 node may receive an ICMP Packet Too Big message > > reporting a Next-Hop MTU less than 1280. In that case, the IPv6 node > > is not required to reduce the size of subsequent packets to less than > > 1280, but must include a Fragment header in those packets so that the > > IPv6-to-IPv4 translating router can obtain a suitable Identification > > value to use in resulting IPv4 fragments. > > "IPv6-to-IPv4 translating router" is fiction though, right? > nope - see IVI --bill From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Wed Dec 9 09:55:52 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD90E3A6A1C for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 09:55:52 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: <3iIIRjybdCyG> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Online Shop ; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 09:55:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from chello089076234233.chello.pl (chello089076234233.chello.pl [89.76.234.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D6B03A6A38 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 09:55:45 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Online Shop To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Valued customer dnsext-archive@ietf.org 80% OFF on Pfizer. Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20091209175545.6D6B03A6A38@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 09:55:45 -0800 (PST) Newsletter
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Wed Dec 9 09:56:09 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 516093A6A1C for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 09:56:09 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Online Shop ; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 09:56:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from chello089076234233.chello.pl (chello089076234233.chello.pl [89.76.234.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2990F3A67E6 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 09:56:02 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Online Shop To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Valued customer dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org 80% OFF on Pfizer. Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20091209175603.2990F3A67E6@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 09:56:02 -0800 (PST) Newsletter
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Dec 9 13:22:16 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 991263A677D; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 13:22:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WP78czwtOMWI; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 13:22:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 718473A68C6; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 13:22:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NITsY-000EVC-Ts for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 09 Dec 2009 21:15:22 +0000 Received: from [209.85.211.177] (helo=mail-yw0-f177.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NITsT-000EUY-Ik for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Dec 2009 21:15:17 +0000 Received: by ywh7 with SMTP id 7so8509348ywh.24 for ; Wed, 09 Dec 2009 13:15:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=uPvVoAsZQzhfAypN/WThBUKd4/sXkbv5kQJFqp4xPFY=; b=rBnsZ70OnI3NzwL9NhVvoqi2je91uHCdwnkhMx2SnJbU2jyuJNxdUOAGHMGb5Lij+1 n63GZZjy59NynIwM8T0HSV5R493xcHX8YTvUAMDWpt/7IbMhgCjgBEvvJZ9jaRj9stbB fJxwTSvElAB+7OEFRXEvdzp1lE3/Gg+QKmIOc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Z4UPToRjnCIOj7/wlSxNmZdhyQfFoytHAspf/imPfBa+48uyYBJoHw/hSKuFstjHtg 2GX7Nf40uVl8UyL/G126j6bUHn4XU2Jwf4P4um6DGCjCrQNwBZTAibcK0czghTGOeFX8 sxr9xLe8bgWIsmcqp1E5kTKLnVZo6T2ZsXh2c= Received: by 10.150.88.25 with SMTP id l25mr17417371ybb.170.1260393316612; Wed, 09 Dec 2009 13:15:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from Wastrel.local (c-68-40-195-221.hsd1.mi.comcast.net [68.40.195.221]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 22sm82391iwn.0.2009.12.09.13.15.14 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 09 Dec 2009 13:15:15 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4B201361.6030003@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 16:15:13 -0500 From: William Allen Simpson User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fernando Gont CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, perry@piermont.com, vixie@isc.org Subject: [dnsext] Re: Some comments on "Improving TCP security with robust cookies" References: <4B19E27A.5070201@gont.com.ar> <4B1A50E5.4020707@gmail.com> <4B1F5D6D.8020406@gont.com.ar> In-Reply-To: <4B1F5D6D.8020406@gont.com.ar> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Fernando Gont wrote: >> That was implemented in many TCP stacks, and only gives you timestamps -- >> not SACK, nor the new "TCP User Timeout Option", nor anything else. > > No. It gives you timestamps, SACK, wscale, and more. See > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tcpm/current/msg02251.html > Thanks for the link, I'd forgotten that old TCPM message. Looks like FreeBSD has done more than others. With a secret rotation and 2 secrets! Cool. I've only just begun to learn about Linux kernel code, and they have a constant secret initialized during startup (weak). They still use system time for initial sequence numbers, etc. Fairly predictable. > Implementation of PMTUD is "required" in the upcoming rev of rfc1323, > but not in RFC 1323 itself. -- hence my comment. (I had not checked the > aforementioned I-D) > It's been so long since I've read RFC1323. RFC1323bis is yet another reason not to go through the TCPM WG -- how many years has it been, and still not published? Sheesh! > I still remember when Steve Kent refused to allow IP security to have a >> BOF (let alone Working Group). > > And the reason for that was....? > Unknown for certain. All we know is that he's probably the male mentioned in my FBI file who's reporting to some "Other Agency" (likely, NSA) that refused to declassify major portions of my FBI file. "Sources whose identities are concealed herein have furnished reliable information in the past except when otherwise noted." My FBI file also indicates that they sent agents to infiltrate the IETF. We *do* know Kent required the removal of the PPP LCP encryption option, refused to publish PPP CHAP, and refused to grant the IPSec charter.... When the NomCom replaced the IAB, he was first against the wall. Then, we published all of those things. > I'd say most implementations randomize their ephemeral ports. I would > say most randomize their sequence numbers, too. Some (e.g. OpenBSD) > randomize the timestamps, too. > Not Linux. There are a fair number more Linux installations than OpenBSD. We should get more OpenBSD practices into other platforms. IIRC, RFC1323bis requires a random "offset" for timestamps. >> The first experimental code should be in the next Linux release, but it's >> incomplete due to great difficulty working through their arcane process. > > Is it available online? > The usual places: git clone git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Dec 9 13:36:15 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 509223A6937; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 13:36:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BzXK6gVrXb60; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 13:36:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FADA3A692E; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 13:36:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NIU8L-000Fnt-1v for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 09 Dec 2009 21:31:41 +0000 Received: from [209.85.210.109] (helo=mail-yx0-f109.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NIU8J-000Fnd-05 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Dec 2009 21:31:39 +0000 Received: by yxe7 with SMTP id 7so3729302yxe.5 for ; Wed, 09 Dec 2009 13:31:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-enigmail-version:openpgp:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=tOSh++Kj2BbFWpLUAzJi5RNBzquGsxPl9Sk78tYn09A=; b=kwXqX5bdPR2MLJwV6LqLINjJ3A4XQqFE0xfv99U2oHrBRpUoP4NXv5TkoYBcBe9aXW uQP+Si2D2zXMiV6niBmAZeiMN7fqQlNdq3iTE6A7tarpcGVmqfD18gQngScXgsWPYJC/ 4i2Oq/RmK9eWHfdT5v3Nxjzt/jU/DJANYVS48= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:openpgp:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=mUVOHuUqvfBSJhPXvkz+yo1qG/3R/npwSHxsHIA9qWdLrrn569VQ1KGYsr5QeRZ3XM jRxOd2ESQpbPTrwQ+8Fl+s684+2RYG/7YgZU88+YA4AWA2/6xS538mfks+QpQqL7U4Re 9B6PS0xwBvQuC0wfdIgbtYsXLv0ZhwAndJPVs= Received: by 10.150.255.25 with SMTP id c25mr17442945ybi.94.1260394295843; Wed, 09 Dec 2009 13:31:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.0.168? (110-155-16-190.fibertel.com.ar [190.16.155.110]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 9sm103129ywe.26.2009.12.09.13.31.33 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 09 Dec 2009 13:31:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4B20172D.90004@gont.com.ar> Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 18:31:25 -0300 From: Fernando Gont User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: William Allen Simpson CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, perry@piermont.com, vixie@isc.org Subject: [dnsext] Re: Some comments on "Improving TCP security with robust cookies" References: <4B19E27A.5070201@gont.com.ar> <4B1A50E5.4020707@gmail.com> <4B1F5D6D.8020406@gont.com.ar> <4B201361.6030003@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4B201361.6030003@gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D076FFF1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: William Allen Simpson wrote: >> No. It gives you timestamps, SACK, wscale, and more. See >> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tcpm/current/msg02251.html >> > Thanks for the link, I'd forgotten that old TCPM message. Looks like > FreeBSD has done more than others. With a secret rotation and 2 secrets! > Cool. I'm not sure they ended up comitting to the FreeBSD kernel, or was actually included in Oppermann's rewritten-from-scratch TCP/IP stack code (that would eventually replace the tradicional TCP/IP code in FreeBSD). > I've only just begun to learn about Linux kernel code, and they > have a constant secret initialized during startup (weak). They still use > system time for initial sequence numbers, etc. Fairly predictable. Wow. I will check the code. I thought (and expected) they were doing better. They do randomiza port numbers, though. IIRC, they implement the simple-hash based algorithm we proposed in draft-ietf-tsvwg-port-randomization >> Implementation of PMTUD is "required" in the upcoming rev of rfc1323, >> but not in RFC 1323 itself. -- hence my comment. (I had not checked the >> aforementioned I-D) >> > It's been so long since I've read RFC1323. RFC1323bis is yet another > reason not to go through the TCPM WG -- how many years has it been, and > still not published? Sheesh! It usually takes 4+ years to publish a document within TCPM (there have been some exceptions, though). > My FBI file also indicates that they sent agents to infiltrate the IETF. And your crime was... advocating the use of crypto? >> I'd say most implementations randomize their ephemeral ports. I would >> say most randomize their sequence numbers, too. Some (e.g. OpenBSD) >> randomize the timestamps, too. >> > Not Linux. There are a fair number more Linux installations than OpenBSD. > We should get more OpenBSD practices into other platforms. I fully agree. > IIRC, RFC1323bis requires a random "offset" for timestamps. It probably does (this was in response of draft-gont-tcpm-tcp-timestamps, which has been stalled for a year or so....) Thanks, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@acm.org PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Wed Dec 9 14:25:39 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2627C3A6A7F for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 14:25:39 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Reseller ; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 14:25:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201-92-206-185.dsl.telesp.net.br (201-92-206-185.dsl.telesp.net.br [201.92.206.185]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ED6B3A6A66 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 14:25:31 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Reseller To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Dear dnsext-archive@ietf.org receive 80% OFF on Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091209222531.7ED6B3A6A66@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 14:25:31 -0800 (PST) Pfizer ® Newsletter
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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Thu Dec 10 10:15:42 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A6F93A6849 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2009 10:15:42 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Official Site [...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.112 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.112 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, GB_H_PHARMACY=1, GB_PHARMACY=1, HELO_DYNAMIC_SPLIT_IP=3.493, HELO_EQ_RU=0.595, HOST_EQ_RU=0.875, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RATWARE_MS_HASH=1.398, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, SARE_UNI=0.591, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ky4qIl1De72Q for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2009 10:15:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from 245.94-157-90.telenet.ru (245.94-157-90.telenet.ru [90.157.94.245]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 865F93A6887 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2009 10:15:40 -0800 (PST) Content-Return: allowed X-Mailer: devMail.Net (3.0.1854.22234-2) Message-Id: <06fb01ca79ee$f2165e50$f55e9d5a@YOUR-0SPXURHE4S> To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: RE: Dear dnsext-archive@ietf.org Pharmacy Message 09415 From: VIAGRA ® Official Site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 10:15:40 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Dec 10 14:36:40 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E59F73A680B; Thu, 10 Dec 2009 14:36:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.246 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.246 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.751, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GWXIgeEnde9z; Thu, 10 Dec 2009 14:36:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D06083A6808; Thu, 10 Dec 2009 14:36:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NIrUF-000EKX-H4 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 10 Dec 2009 22:27:51 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NIrUA-000EJy-Sc for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Dec 2009 22:27:47 +0000 Received: from valholl.ogud.com (nyttbox.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.4]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBAMRjqS016790 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:27:45 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ogud@ogud.com) Message-Id: <200912102227.nBAMRjqS016790@stora.ogud.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:27:41 -0500 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Olafur Gudmundsson/DNSEXT co-chair Subject: [dnsext] WGLC summary: GOST DNSKEY and DS records Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Dear Colleagues, The working group last call started on October 29'th for http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-gost has concluded. There was some discussion on the mailing list during the last call, with about 10 people stating support or opposition. Most of the relevant discussion was about intended status of the document, Standards track, some oppose that. In the end there is in the judgment of the chairs rough consensuses to advance the document on the Standards Track. The document has been updated to reflect some of the comments received during the last call. There remains one open issue: Section 2 of the document specifies that the format of the public key be 66 octets, but the first two be 0 followed by the actual key. There is some discussion that the first two octets can be used for extensions. There was a suggestion to remove these two octets from the wire format. In the past the working group has eliminated all redundant fields and hooks for expansions in DNSKEY (and KEY) records, i.e. the algorithm number is full specification of the algorithm(s) for inter operability reasons. The chairs instruct the editor to update the document reflecting this change in the proposed wire format. Once a new version with this change has been published the chairs will advance the document to the IESG. Olafur & Andrew From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Fri Dec 11 01:27:01 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 638E33A6962 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2009 01:27:01 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Reseller ; Fri, 11 Dec 2009 01:26:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from 94.101.broadband11.iol.cz (94.101.broadband11.iol.cz [90.178.101.94]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 285AC3A69D9 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2009 01:26:53 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Reseller To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Dear dnsext-archive@ietf.org receive 80% OFF on Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091211092654.285AC3A69D9@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 01:26:53 -0800 (PST) Pfizer ® Newsletter
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Fri Dec 11 02:30:51 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F1B33A6836 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2009 02:30:51 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Fri, 11 Dec 2009 02:30:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from 89-233-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net (116-234-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net [91.124.234.116]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id D04043A659C for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2009 02:30:43 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Member dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org get 81 0FF on ALL Pfizer To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20091211103043.D04043A659C@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 02:30:43 -0800 (PST)
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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Fri Dec 11 05:30:02 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC2643A6774 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2009 05:30:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -30.147 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-30.147 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MANGLED_OFF=2.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, NUMERIC_HTTP_ADDR=0.001, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GvPuMQCCIC-Z for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2009 05:29:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201-24-126-96.jvece702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br (201-24-126-96.jvece702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [201.24.126.96]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA1433A6986 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2009 05:29:53 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA Store To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Member dnsext-archive@ietf.org get 80% 0FF on ALL Pfizer. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091211132953.AA1433A6986@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 05:29:53 -0800 (PST) News Today
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Fri Dec 11 05:31:57 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B6F33A67FA for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2009 05:31:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -30.149 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-30.149 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MANGLED_OFF=2.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o6YJYCfmK0+b for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2009 05:31:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201-24-126-96.jvece702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br (201-24-126-96.jvece702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [201.24.126.96]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A0A13A68FB for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2009 05:31:48 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA Store To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Member dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org get 80% 0FF on ALL Pfizer. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091211133149.4A0A13A68FB@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 05:31:48 -0800 (PST) News Today
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 11 06:49:20 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8666D28B797; Fri, 11 Dec 2009 06:49:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.196 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.196 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.701, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Oysz8eQ3klnQ; Fri, 11 Dec 2009 06:49:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 555463A6ADC; Fri, 11 Dec 2009 06:49:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NJ6gT-0008Y4-1T for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 11 Dec 2009 14:41:29 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NJ6gR-0008Xo-8C for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Dec 2009 14:41:27 +0000 Received: from valholl.ogud.com (nyttbox.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.4]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBBEfP0i006143 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2009 09:41:25 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ogud@ogud.com) Message-Id: <200912111441.nBBEfP0i006143@stora.ogud.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 09:39:20 -0500 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Olafur Gudmundsson/DNSEXT co-chair Subject: [dnsext] Draft minutes from IETF-76 meeting. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Please send comments, corrections by December 16'nd. thanks Olafur DNSEXT @ IETF-76 Hiroshima Japan November 9'th 2009 at 17:40 ANA Hotel Orchid East Chairs: Olafur Gudmundsson present Andrew Sullivan remote participation Scribe: Patrik Wallstroem Jabber: Joao Domas (with help from George Michaelson) Slides: Edward Lewis Working group document status was sent to few days before the meeting http://www.psg.com/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2009/msg02861.html Chair agenda slides: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/09nov/slides/dnsext-4.pdf Jabber Log: http://www.ietf.org/jabber/logs/dnsext/2009-11-09.txt Audio recording: http://www.ietf.org/audio/ietf76/ietf76-ch6-mon-afnoon3.mp3 Access Jabber log or audio recording for more details of discussions. Start of meeting: Document: DNSKEY Registry States: Olafur Gudmundsson for Scott Rose http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/09nov/slides/dnsext-0/dnsext-0.htm Jelte Jensen wants the document to remove a redundant ?? column in the registry. Document seems ready to be advanced after minor fixes. Document: DNSSEC Algorithm Allocation Rules Paul Hoffman http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/09nov/slides/dnsext-3.pdf Question reserve test/documentation value ? Jelte to provide suggested text. Other than that document is ready for last call. DNSSEC bis updates: Olafur Gudmundsson as chair looking for input from working group. One big open issue "Trust Anchor Selection" There was intense discussion on what the options are and what they mean. There was a agreement in the room to have the DNSSECbis document, specify what the different policies are but not mandate any of them, as that is local policy. Documents in WG adoption queue need review: draft-hoffman-dnssec-ecdsa draft-hoffman-dnssec-dsa-sha2 draft-barwood-transport-signal DNS Transport over TCP Ray Bellis http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/09nov/slides/dnsext-1/dnsext-1.htm There was some discussion that this is not needed, or DNSEXT is stepping into operational protocol police. There was lively discussion about this topic, summary update the document to be more protocol and implementation specific. TCP for DNS Security considerations Fernando Gont http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/09nov/slides/dnsext-5.pdf This was background information for enlightened TCP discussion, please look at the presentation and follow the links from it. Stateless TCP for DNS Geoff Huston and George Michaelson http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/09nov/slides/dnsext-2.pdf Stupid but cute idea. TCP discussion: There were some people arguing that 1123 needs to be updated, there were some arguing that will not help. This effort is about fixing middle boxes and make sure implementations support DNS over TCP, enabling operators to use TCP if they so wish. End of meeting From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Fri Dec 11 06:56:14 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6079E28C0E5 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2009 06:56:14 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: <5gB-lGpS++xn> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Online Shop ; Fri, 11 Dec 2009 06:56:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from 220-142-14-224.dynamic.hinet.net (111-255-66-145.dynamic.hinet.net [111.255.66.145]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E5FC3A693D for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2009 06:56:07 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Online Shop To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Valued customer dnsext-archive@ietf.org 80% OFF on Pfizer. 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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Fri Dec 11 06:56:30 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C173C3A69DF for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2009 06:56:30 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Online Shop ; Fri, 11 Dec 2009 06:56:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from 220-142-14-224.dynamic.hinet.net (111-255-66-145.dynamic.hinet.net [111.255.66.145]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F7693A693D for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2009 06:56:23 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Online Shop To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Valued customer dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org 80% OFF on Pfizer. Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20091211145623.9F7693A693D@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 06:56:23 -0800 (PST) Newsletter
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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Sat Dec 12 08:44:25 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD5443A67DF for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2009 08:44:25 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: Pfizer \256 Customer Servi[...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -50.328 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-50.328 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GovxfPc5Yed7 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2009 08:44:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201008113004.user.veloxzone.com.br (201008113004.user.veloxzone.com.br [201.8.113.4]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76ADF3A679C for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2009 08:44:19 -0800 (PST) From: Pfizer ® Customer Service To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Special offer dnsext-archive@ietf.org receive 70% OFF on Pfizer. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091212164419.76ADF3A679C@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 08:44:19 -0800 (PST) Pfizer ® 80% OFF
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Sat Dec 12 08:44:55 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3503D3A679C for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2009 08:44:55 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: Pfizer \256 Customer Servi[...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -50.328 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-50.328 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id thy-qcObDHSe for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2009 08:44:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201008113004.user.veloxzone.com.br (201008113004.user.veloxzone.com.br [201.8.113.4]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2F563A6825 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2009 08:44:47 -0800 (PST) From: Pfizer ® Customer Service To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Special offer dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org receive 70% OFF on Pfizer. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091212164447.D2F563A6825@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 08:44:47 -0800 (PST) Pfizer ® 80% OFF
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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Sat Dec 12 10:40:38 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7126D3A6820 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2009 10:40:38 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Official Site [...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -34.773 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-34.773 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=12.791, BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MANGLED_OFF=2.3, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, SARE_UNI=0.591, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_SBL=20, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vhFYVVtO1DYX for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2009 10:40:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from 250-95-132-95.pool.ukrtel.net (250-95-132-95.pool.ukrtel.net [95.132.95.250]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id DEF0F3A67D3 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2009 10:40:36 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Official Site To: Subject: Dear dnsext-archive@ietf.org 87% 0FF on PFIZER ! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091212184036.DEF0F3A67D3@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 10:40:36 -0800 (PST)
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Sat Dec 12 18:30:03 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C56643A6819 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2009 18:30:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -56.464 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-56.464 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MANGLED_OFF=2.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, NUMERIC_HTTP_ADDR=0.001, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, URIBL_BLACK=20, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OQZyrTjUbpMH for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2009 18:29:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from host222.190-30-219.telecom.net.ar (host222.190-30-219.telecom.net.ar [190.30.219.222]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36D6A3A67B0 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2009 18:29:55 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA Store To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Member dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org get 80% 0FF on ALL Pfizer. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091213022956.36D6A3A67B0@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 18:29:55 -0800 (PST) News Today
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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Sat Dec 12 18:30:59 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6B473A67B0 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2009 18:30:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -56.464 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-56.464 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MANGLED_OFF=2.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, URIBL_BLACK=20, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cKu1TsLd0rAH for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2009 18:30:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from host222.190-30-219.telecom.net.ar (host222.190-30-219.telecom.net.ar [190.30.219.222]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B33D3A6819 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2009 18:30:53 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA Store To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Member dnsext-archive@ietf.org get 80% 0FF on ALL Pfizer. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091213023053.5B33D3A6819@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 18:30:53 -0800 (PST) News Today
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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Sat Dec 12 20:19:54 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 410163A67F2 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2009 20:19:54 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Reseller ; Sat, 12 Dec 2009 20:19:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from 49.250.9.217.ip.erdves.lt (49.250.9.217.ip.erdves.lt [217.9.250.49]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C12853A67B2 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2009 20:19:44 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Reseller To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Dear dnsext-archive@ietf.org receive 80% OFF on Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091213041944.C12853A67B2@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 20:19:44 -0800 (PST) Pfizer ® Newsletter
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Sat Dec 12 20:21:31 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D4053A6808 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2009 20:21:31 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: <85dlrRUZhdYG> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Reseller ; Sat, 12 Dec 2009 20:21:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from 49.250.9.217.ip.erdves.lt (49.250.9.217.ip.erdves.lt [217.9.250.49]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C31B3A67B2 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2009 20:21:23 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Reseller To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Dear dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org receive 80% OFF on Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091213042123.3C31B3A67B2@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 20:21:23 -0800 (PST) Pfizer ® Newsletter
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Sun Dec 13 01:30:54 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 052F03A67E3 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 01:30:54 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: <72TJSd9IMVNW> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Reseller ; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 01:30:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from 217-175-222-17.dyn-pool.spidernet.net (217-175-222-17.dyn-pool.spidernet.net [217.175.222.17]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E5D53A67F0 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 01:30:46 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Reseller To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Dear dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org receive 80% OFF on Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091213093046.6E5D53A67F0@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 01:30:46 -0800 (PST) Pfizer ® Newsletter
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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Sun Dec 13 01:31:07 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E0763A67E7 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 01:31:07 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Reseller ; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 01:31:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from 217-175-222-17.dyn-pool.spidernet.net (217-175-222-17.dyn-pool.spidernet.net [217.175.222.17]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA60B3A67E3 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 01:30:59 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Reseller To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Dear dnsext-archive@ietf.org receive 80% OFF on Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091213093059.BA60B3A67E3@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 01:30:59 -0800 (PST) Pfizer ® Newsletter
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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Sun Dec 13 07:07:06 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 715CE3A67BE for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 07:07:06 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: General VIAGRA \256 Reseller ; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 07:07:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from r190-0-138-231.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy (r190-0-138-231.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy [190.0.138.231]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71A8B3A62C1 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 07:07:04 -0800 (PST) From: General VIAGRA ® Reseller To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: SALE 80% for user dnsext-archive@ietf.org on Pfizer Products MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091213150704.71A8B3A62C1@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 07:07:04 -0800 (PST) Newsletter
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Sun Dec 13 07:07:18 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25FD73A62C1 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 07:07:18 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: General VIAGRA \256 Reseller ; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 07:07:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from r190-0-138-231.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy (r190-0-138-231.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy [190.0.138.231]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B1DD3A67BE for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 07:07:15 -0800 (PST) From: General VIAGRA ® Reseller To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: SALE 80% for user dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org on Pfizer Products MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091213150716.3B1DD3A67BE@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 07:07:15 -0800 (PST) Newsletter
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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Sun Dec 13 10:44:09 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8851A3A6864 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 10:44:09 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Reseller ; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 10:44:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from nat5.net-access.pl (nat5.net-access.pl [88.199.142.5]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A99F83A67E5 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 10:44:01 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Reseller To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Dear dnsext-archive@ietf.org receive 80% OFF on Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091213184401.A99F83A67E5@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 10:44:01 -0800 (PST) Pfizer ® Newsletter
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Sun Dec 13 10:46:10 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 969DB3A68B6 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 10:46:10 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Reseller ; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 10:46:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from nat5.net-access.pl (nat5.net-access.pl [88.199.142.5]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9235C3A688A for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 10:46:02 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Reseller To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Dear dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org receive 80% OFF on Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091213184602.9235C3A688A@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 10:46:02 -0800 (PST) Pfizer ® Newsletter
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Dec 13 18:59:45 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6248328C102; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 18:59:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.728 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.728 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.381, BAYES_05=-1.11, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id asXzk-HKTZwr; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 18:59:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 781BD28C0FD; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 18:59:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NK0yv-000AoZ-36 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 02:48:17 +0000 Received: from [209.85.219.219] (helo=mail-ew0-f219.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NK0yo-000Ao2-IF for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 02:48:11 +0000 Received: by ewy19 with SMTP id 19so3018572ewy.1 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 18:48:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=SH83lXNz1iojciQjvxEyjuXN1da2dNATcoI0duVIM9k=; b=u8slucFhH1Gzf4dvbUh9iY8x3SgKbt2VVR0nJPuamWpxv8IW4kDePrfyzBZcRKFJQn w8zyYh29j8ok9qcrH78BEEaWmPs54abKMalYvjY8WdxrA3qedWJIMp7DJuDL6ZnDciej inaUk6TfMFrsJbsloVmR4yw3R63xD1Tipzqvs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=JPzRrkiC9EMuBxLMPBryoWGSlJMDhrgktDDZfO/ZMCU7+sAplByAHyLjHj2kthP8oI flBNJ08d0SYRzhYysxWMsVchzziUKtXd72xn3McGM5t0JIu10cqsHtjtNg2QMUW1EhMS OuFGYszIh0GU3yduT0JaKJuEZM/OvatCL3D9k= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.86.72 with SMTP id v50mr1839640wee.184.1260758888937; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 18:48:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 21:48:08 -0500 Message-ID: <1028365c0912131848p29de845fte3d53835e851b470@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [dnsext] FQDN maximum length From: Donald Eastlake To: IETF DNSEXT WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6dab18eb8f940047aa74de3 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: --0016e6dab18eb8f940047aa74de3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 OK, here is what I think is a stupid question to which I think I know the answer... but I wish to consult the wisdom of namedroppers. I am doing a review of draft-cheshire-dnsext-multicastdns-08.txt. For some reason, the authors believe that the words of RFC 1034 as follows the total number of octets that represent a domain name (i.e., the sum of all label octets and label lengths) is limited to 255 are no clear. I thought they were clear. "all label octets and label lengths" seems clear and should include zero byte which is the length of the root label. That is to say, I thought that "all" meant "all". So, if you had a maximum length wire encoded FQDN, the last or 255th byte would be that zero length... The authors of the cheshire draft then, however, refer to RFC 2181 "Clarifications to the DNS Specification" where it says The zero length full name is defined as representing the root of the DNS tree, and is typically written and displayed as ".". from which they conclude that the "length" of an FQDN does not include the zero byte which is the length of the root label. (Looking further at RFC 2181, the preceding sentence says "A full domain name is limited to 255 octets (including the separators)." which seems beside the point. The length limit in RFC 1034 is defined in terms of the wire encoding with byte counts, not the ASCII encoding with period separators.) So, the authors of this draft have decided that they want their maximum length to include the zero byte which is the length of the root label and they specify the maximum length to be 256 bytes. They presumably believe this is what the regular DNS length limit "really means"... So, what's the real story here? Thanks, Donald ============================= Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-634-2066 (home) 155 Beaver Street Milford, MA 01757 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com --0016e6dab18eb8f940047aa74de3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK, here is what I think is a stupid question to which I think I know the a= nswer... but I wish to consult the wisdom of namedroppers.

I am doing a review of=A0draft-cheshire-dnsext-multicastdns-08.txt. For = some reason, the authors believe that the words of RFC 1034 as follows

=A0=A0 =A0 the total number of octets that represe= nt a domain name (i.e.,
=A0=A0 =A0 the sum of all label octets an= d label lengths) is limited to 255

are no clear. I= thought they were clear. "all label octets and label lengths" se= ems clear and should include zero byte which is the length of the root labe= l. That is to say, I thought that "all" meant "all". So= , if you had a maximum length wire encoded FQDN, the last or 255th byte wou= ld be that zero length... The authors of the cheshire draft then, however, = refer to RFC 2181=A0"Clarifications=A0to the DNS Specification" w= here it says
=
   The zero
   length full name is defined as representing the root of the DNS tree,
   and is typically written and displayed as ".".
from which they conclude that the "length" of an FQDN does n=
ot include the zero byte which is the length of the root label. (Looking fu=
rther at RFC 2181, the preceding sentence says "A full domain name is =
limited to 255 octets (including the separators)." which seems beside =
the point. The length limit in RFC 1034 is defined in terms of the wire enc=
oding with byte counts, not the ASCII encoding with period separators.)
So, the authors of this draft h=
ave decided that they want their maximum length to include the zero byte wh=
ich is the length of the root label and they specify the maximum length to =
be 256=A0bytes. They presumably believe this is what the regular DNS length=
 limit "really means"...
So, what's the real story here?

<= div>Thanks,
Donald
<= span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: arial; white-space: n= ormal; font-size: small; ">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Donald E. Eastlake 3rd =A0 +1-508-634-2066 (home)
155 Beaver Street Milford, MA 01757 USA
d3e3e3@gmai= l.com
--0016e6dab18eb8f940047aa74de3-- From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Sun Dec 13 19:24:27 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D910A3A687F for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 19:24:27 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char A9 hex): From: VIAGRA \251 Online Shop ; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 19:24:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from or.korea.ac.kr (or.korea.ac.kr [163.152.33.104]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E15613A657C for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 19:24:20 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA © Online Shop To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: For dnsext-archive special 80% OFF on Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091214032420.E15613A657C@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 19:24:20 -0800 (PST) Newsletter
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Dec 13 19:36:28 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17A6828C104; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 19:36:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WTqNRm6ncLcr; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 19:36:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 777373A6986; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 19:36:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NK1bR-000F3w-Ps for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 03:28:05 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::5] (helo=farside.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NK1bL-000F3A-Rt for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 03:27:59 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (drugs.dv.isc.org [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (not verified)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A330E6089; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 03:27:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBE3RnRG017542; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:27:50 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200912140327.nBE3RnRG017542@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Donald Eastlake Cc: IETF DNSEXT WG From: Mark Andrews References: <1028365c0912131848p29de845fte3d53835e851b470@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] FQDN maximum length In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 13 Dec 2009 21:48:08 CDT." <1028365c0912131848p29de845fte3d53835e851b470@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:27:49 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: In message <1028365c0912131848p29de845fte3d53835e851b470@mail.gmail.com>, Donal d Eastlake writes: > OK, here is what I think is a stupid question to which I think I know the > answer... but I wish to consult the wisdom of namedroppers. > > I am doing a review of draft-cheshire-dnsext-multicastdns-08.txt. For some > reason, the authors believe that the words of RFC 1034 as follows > > the total number of octets that represent a domain name (i.e., > the sum of all label octets and label lengths) is limited to 255 > > are no clear. I thought they were clear. "all label octets and label > lengths" seems clear and should include zero byte which is the length of the > root label. That is to say, I thought that "all" meant "all". So, if you had > a maximum length wire encoded FQDN, the last or 255th byte would be that > zero length... The authors of the cheshire draft then, however, refer to RFC > 2181 "Clarifications to the DNS Specification" where it says > > The zero > length full name is defined as representing the root of the DNS tree, > and is typically written and displayed as ".". > > from which they conclude that the "length" of an FQDN does not include > the zero byte which is the length of the root label. (Looking further > at RFC 2181, the preceding sentence says "A full domain name is > limited to 255 octets (including the separators)." which seems beside > the point. The length limit in RFC 1034 is defined in terms of the > wire encoding with byte counts, not the ASCII encoding with period > separators.) > > So, the authors of this draft have decided that they want their > maximum length to include the zero byte which is the length of the > root label and they specify the maximum length to be 256 bytes. They > presumably believe this is what the regular DNS length limit "really > means"... > > So, what's the real story here? The wire limit is 255 octets. The presentation limit is 1004 bytes. 1005 bytes for null terminated C strings. The biggest hostname (LDH) which can be wire encoded is 253 bytes. Note hostnames do not have a trailing period. 1004 = (63 + 63 + 63 + 61) * 4 (\DDD encoded labels characters) + 4 (periods at end of labels) Mark > Thanks, > Donald > ============================= > Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-634-2066 (home) > 155 Beaver Street > Milford, MA 01757 USA > d3e3e3@gmail.com > -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Dec 13 19:48:35 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A3973A687F; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 19:48:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hxy8T01pKVvT; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 19:48:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A4B83A68D2; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 19:48:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NK1lP-000Fwx-0R for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 03:38:23 +0000 Received: from [74.125.78.27] (helo=ey-out-2122.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NK1lI-000Fw4-JK for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 03:38:17 +0000 Received: by ey-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 9so812012eyd.53 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 19:38:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=Tni92knJQYYkjYkz2nD5ph3BvNXBxVwoP12JdEKpc7w=; b=M67V9NJz9+YxC4el1QefgG8VjYforNYrk75WY2pvE6YaytUZaTu2anS03talek9FLX 0tXWzO9GgstN3JiT+I5IfwYZSFSWlGIZPvXzfOftwTSgUEjBYlQQF9QqTfnB0tFSWHU6 pBWEw6HDObuUmopxhUc8UkZtIBGCWv+YsM0ds= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=GYS6ZPiqp79bfDL55/5zRjr/yQoOpx0WdkDBpmHRj7gviDpqSaShs0S+ctJAXWjZVy MPukrDFzet3lbw1AuaWQBexLm1HreXUq7+b8xHzzyCQNh8Dh3miI3i5oX4vtns0BYLiO fb07D1iH7afuciVDAhpVHAjSKBpy4y6nKLueM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.90.136 with SMTP id e8mr1723319wef.110.1260761894984; Sun, 13 Dec 2009 19:38:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <200912140327.nBE3RnRG017542@drugs.dv.isc.org> References: <1028365c0912131848p29de845fte3d53835e851b470@mail.gmail.com> <200912140327.nBE3RnRG017542@drugs.dv.isc.org> Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 22:38:14 -0500 Message-ID: <1028365c0912131938k7f9d790dvcb08326db21b7ef2@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] FQDN maximum length From: Donald Eastlake To: Mark Andrews Cc: IETF DNSEXT WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6dab093e59bef047aa80005 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: --0016e6dab093e59bef047aa80005 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 That's exactly what I thought. So an example of the wire encoding of a maximum length FQDN could be four labels of 63, 63, 63, and 61 bytes = 250 bytes plus the one byte lengths for these four labels plus the one byte of value zero for the terminating root label = 250 + 4 + 1 = 255 bytes. Thanks, Donald On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 10:27 PM, Mark Andrews wrote: > > In message <1028365c0912131848p29de845fte3d53835e851b470@mail.gmail.com>, > Donal > d Eastlake writes: > > OK, here is what I think is a stupid question to which I think I know the > > answer... but I wish to consult the wisdom of namedroppers. > > > > I am doing a review of draft-cheshire-dnsext-multicastdns-08.txt. For > some > > reason, the authors believe that the words of RFC 1034 as follows > > > > the total number of octets that represent a domain name (i.e., > > the sum of all label octets and label lengths) is limited to 255 > > > > are no clear. I thought they were clear. "all label octets and label > > lengths" seems clear and should include zero byte which is the length of > the > > root label. That is to say, I thought that "all" meant "all". So, if you > had > > a maximum length wire encoded FQDN, the last or 255th byte would be that > > zero length... The authors of the cheshire draft then, however, refer to > RFC > > 2181 "Clarifications to the DNS Specification" where it says > > > > The zero > > length full name is defined as representing the root of the DNS tree, > > and is typically written and displayed as ".". > > > > from which they conclude that the "length" of an FQDN does not include > > the zero byte which is the length of the root label. (Looking further > > at RFC 2181, the preceding sentence says "A full domain name is > > limited to 255 octets (including the separators)." which seems beside > > the point. The length limit in RFC 1034 is defined in terms of the > > wire encoding with byte counts, not the ASCII encoding with period > > separators.) > > > > So, the authors of this draft have decided that they want their > > maximum length to include the zero byte which is the length of the > > root label and they specify the maximum length to be 256 bytes. They > > presumably believe this is what the regular DNS length limit "really > > means"... > > > > So, what's the real story here? > > The wire limit is 255 octets. The presentation limit is 1004 bytes. > 1005 bytes for null terminated C strings. The biggest hostname > (LDH) which can be wire encoded is 253 bytes. Note hostnames do > not have a trailing period. > > 1004 = (63 + 63 + 63 + 61) * 4 (\DDD encoded labels characters) + > 4 (periods at end of labels) > > Mark > > Thanks, > > Donald > > ============================= > > Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-634-2066 (home) > > 155 Beaver Street > > Milford, MA 01757 USA > > d3e3e3@gmail.com > > > -- > Mark Andrews, ISC > 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia > PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org > --0016e6dab093e59bef047aa80005 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
That's exactly what I thought. So an example= of the wire encoding of a maximum length FQDN could be four labels of 63, = 63, 63, and 61 bytes =3D 250 bytes plus the one byte lengths for these four= labels plus the one byte of value zero for the terminating root label =3D = 250 + 4 + 1 =3D 255 bytes.

Thanks,
Donald

On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 10:27 PM, Mark Andrew= s <marka@isc.org&= gt; wrote:

In message <1028365c0912131848p29de845fte3d53835e851b470@mail.gmail.= com>, Donal
d Eastlake writes:
> OK, here is what I think is a stupid question to which I think I know = the
> answer... but I wish to consult the wisdom of namedroppers.
>
> I am doing a review of draft-cheshire-dnsext-multicastdns-08.txt. For = some
> reason, the authors believe that the words of RFC 1034 as follows
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0the total number of octets that represent a domain name (i.= e.,
> =A0 =A0 =A0the sum of all label octets and label lengths) is limited t= o 255
>
> are no clear. I thought they were clear. "all label octets and la= bel
> lengths" seems clear and should include zero byte which is the le= ngth of the
> root label. That is to say, I thought that "all" meant "= ;all". So, if you had
> a maximum length wire encoded FQDN, the last or 255th byte would be th= at
> zero length... The authors of the cheshire draft then, however, refer = to RFC
> 2181 "Clarifications to the DNS Specification" where it says=
>
> =A0 =A0The zero
> =A0 =A0length full name is defined as representing the root of the DNS= tree,
> =A0 =A0and is typically written and displayed as ".".
>
> from which they conclude that the "length" of an FQDN does n= ot include
> the zero byte which is the length of the root label. (Looking further<= br> > at RFC 2181, the preceding sentence says "A full domain name is > limited to 255 octets (including the separators)." which seems be= side
> the point. The length limit in RFC 1034 is defined in terms of the
> wire encoding with byte counts, not the ASCII encoding with period
> separators.)
>
> So, the authors of this draft have decided that they want their
> maximum length to include the zero byte which is the length of the
> root label and they specify the maximum length to be 256 bytes. They > presumably believe this is what the regular DNS length limit "rea= lly
> means"...
>
> So, what's the real story here?

The wire limit is 255 octets. =A0The presentation limit is 1004= bytes.
1005 bytes for null terminated C strings. =A0The biggest hostname
(LDH) which can be wire encoded is 253 bytes. =A0Note hostnames do
not have a trailing period.

1004 =3D (63 + 63 + 63 + 61) * 4 (\DDD encoded labels characters) +
=A0 =A0 =A0 4 (periods at end of labels)

Mark
> Thanks,
> Donald
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> Donald E. Eastlake 3rd =A0 +1-508-634-2066 (home)
> 155 Beaver Street
> Milford, MA 01757 USA
> d3e3e3@gmail.com
>
--
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 INTERNET: marka@isc.org

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 14 06:10:49 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59CF93A67C2; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 06:10:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZcZKaSRMFKrv; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 06:10:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3691A3A6900; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 06:10:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKBNv-000MXE-QL for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 13:54:47 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:2e0:81ff:fe52:9971] (helo=mail2.ntp.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKBNp-000MWg-SX for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 13:54:41 +0000 Received: from firewall.antoniuk.lan (mail.antoniuk.md [65.86.158.146]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail2.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DC523988C; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 13:54:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mayer@gis.net) Received: from [205.157.206.7] (helo=[192.168.1.203]) by firewall.antoniuk.lan with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NKBNe-0007th-G4; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 08:54:30 -0500 Message-ID: <4B26437E.9040607@gis.net> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 08:54:06 -0500 From: Danny Mayer Reply-To: mayer@gis.net User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: William Allen Simpson Cc: Fernando Gont , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, perry@piermont.com, vixie@isc.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: Some comments on "Improving TCP security with robust cookies" References: <4B19E27A.5070201@gont.com.ar> <4B1A50E5.4020707@gmail.com> <4B1F5D6D.8020406@gont.com.ar> <4B201361.6030003@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4B201361.6030003@gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-kostecke.net-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-kostecke.net-MailScanner-From: mayer@gis.net Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: William Allen Simpson wrote: > Fernando Gont wrote: >>> That was implemented in many TCP stacks, and only gives you >>> timestamps -- >>> not SACK, nor the new "TCP User Timeout Option", nor anything else. >> >> No. It gives you timestamps, SACK, wscale, and more. See >> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tcpm/current/msg02251.html >> > Thanks for the link, I'd forgotten that old TCPM message. Looks like > FreeBSD has done more than others. With a secret rotation and 2 secrets! > Cool. I've only just begun to learn about Linux kernel code, and they > have a constant secret initialized during startup (weak). They still use > system time for initial sequence numbers, etc. Fairly predictable. > Well that gets really interesting because you won't have started ntpd to synchronize the system clock since it has to wait for the IP stack to be available. So what system time is "used" is somewhat unpredictable. I guess there's some randomness in that! >> I'd say most implementations randomize their ephemeral ports. I would >> say most randomize their sequence numbers, too. Some (e.g. OpenBSD) >> randomize the timestamps, too. >> After or before the system time is synchronized? Danny > Not Linux. There are a fair number more Linux installations than OpenBSD. > We should get more OpenBSD practices into other platforms. > > IIRC, RFC1323bis requires a random "offset" for timestamps. > > >>> The first experimental code should be in the next Linux release, but >>> it's >>> incomplete due to great difficulty working through their arcane process. >> >> Is it available online? >> > The usual places: > > git clone > git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git > > > -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 14 07:20:36 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EDA53A68EA; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 07:20:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K65nXqpMo7tG; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 07:20:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 354A93A6774; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 07:20:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKCYo-000623-I9 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 15:10:06 +0000 Received: from [64.18.2.6] (helo=exprod7og117.obsmtp.com) by psg.com with smtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKCYi-00060k-FR for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 15:10:00 +0000 Received: from source ([64.89.228.229]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob117.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKSyZVRhKzynTlpd9LG99ul4kM+/lhZDSO@postini.com; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 07:10:00 PST Received: from webmail.nominum.com (exchange-10.nominum.com [64.89.228.57]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "exchange-10.win.nominum.com", Issuer "Go Daddy Secure Certification Authority" (verified OK)) by shell-too.nominum.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E10981B82D4; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 07:09:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from exchange-10.WIN.NOMINUM.COM ([64.89.228.57]) by exchange-10.WIN.NOMINUM.COM ([64.89.228.57]) with mapi; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 07:09:57 -0800 From: Bob Halley To: Donald Eastlake CC: IETF DNSEXT WG Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 07:09:53 -0800 Subject: Re: [dnsext] FQDN maximum length Thread-Topic: [dnsext] FQDN maximum length Thread-Index: Acp8z39jTMoQfhnnS9G81NQrBSjiUw== Message-ID: References: <1028365c0912131848p29de845fte3d53835e851b470@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1028365c0912131848p29de845fte3d53835e851b470@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_F15949D3AAFC4CAC9D16610C7AE86BF2nominumcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: --_000_F15949D3AAFC4CAC9D16610C7AE86BF2nominumcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 14 Dec 2009, at 02:48, Donald Eastlake wrote: OK, here is what I think is a stupid question to which I think I know the a= nswer... but I wish to consult the wisdom of namedroppers. I am doing a review of draft-cheshire-dnsext-multicastdns-08.txt. For some = reason, the authors believe that the words of RFC 1034 as follows the total number of octets that represent a domain name (i.e., the sum of all label octets and label lengths) is limited to 255 are no clear. I thought they were clear. "all label octets and label length= s" seems clear and should include zero byte which is the length of the root= label. That is to say, I thought that "all" meant "all". So, if you had a = maximum length wire encoded FQDN, the last or 255th byte would be that zero= length... I too think that it is clear. As further proof, I offer RFC 1034, section 3.1: "Each node has a label, which is zero to 63 octets in length. Brother nod= es may not have the same label, although the same label can be used for nodes which are not brothers. One label is reserved, and that is the n= ull (i.e., zero length) label used for the root. "The domain name of a node is the list of the labels on the path from the n= ode to the root of the tree. By convention, the labels that compose a doma= in name are printed or read left to right, from the most specific (lowest, = farthest from the root) to the least specific (highest, closest to the root= )." While this doesn't specifically say the the root node of the tree is includ= ed in the path, it can be reasonably inferred by the fact that the root lab= el is defined, which you wouldn't need to do in the case where the root was= n't included. In other words, the root domain name is "the list consisting of a single el= ement, namely the null label", and not "the empty list". RFC 1035 section 3.1 supports this interpretation: "Domain names in messages are expressed in terms of a sequence of labels. E= ach label is represented as a one octet length field followed by that numbe= r of octets. Since every domain name ends with the null label of the root,= a domain name is terminated by a length byte of zero. The high order two = bits of every length octet must be zero, and the remaining six bits of the = length field limit the label to 63 octets or less. "To simplify implementations, the total length of a domain name (i.e. label= octets and label length octets) is restricted to 255 octets or less." The authors of the cheshire draft then, however, refer to RFC 2181 "Clarifi= cations to the DNS Specification" where it says The zero length full name is defined as representing the root of the DNS tree, and is typically written and displayed as ".". This section of RFC 2181 is somewhat confusing, as it's talking about both = "octets" and "separators" in the same sentence -- "octets" implies wire enc= oding, but "separators" implies text encoding. So, what's the real story here? I think RFC 1034 and 1035 are very clear, and that RFC 2181 should have sai= d something more like 'The domain name of the root of the DNS tree is represented by a label sequ= ence consisting of the the null label. The textual form of this name is ".= ".' /Bob --_000_F15949D3AAFC4CAC9D16610C7AE86BF2nominumcom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 14 Dec 20= 09, at 02:48, Donald Eastlake wrote:

OK, here is what I think is a stupid quest= ion to which I think I know the answer... but I wish to consult the wisdom = of namedroppers.

I am doing a review of draft-chesh= ire-dnsext-multicastdns-08.txt. For some reason, the authors believe that t= he words of RFC 1034 as follows

     the total number of octets tha= t represent a domain name (i.e.,
     the sum of a= ll label octets and label lengths) is limited to 255

are no clear. I thought they were clear. "all label octets and label len= gths" seems clear and should include zero byte which is the length of the r= oot label. That is to say, I thought that "all" meant "all". So, if you had= a maximum length wire encoded FQDN, the last or 255th byte would be that z= ero length...

I too think that = it is clear.  As further proof, I offer

RFC 1= 034, section 3.1:

 "Each node has a label, wh= ich is zero to 63 octets in length.  Brother nodes may not have t= he same label, although the same label can be used
for nodes whic= h are not brothers.  One label is reserved, and that is the null = (i.e., zero length) label used for the root.

"The = domain name of a node is the list of the labels on the path from the n= ode to the root of the tree.  By convention, the labels that compose a=  domain name are printed or read left to right, from the most specific=  (lowest, farthest from the root) to the least specific (highest, clos= est to the root)."

While this doesn't specifi= cally say the the root node of the tree is included in the path, it can be = reasonably inferred by the fact that the root label is defined, which you w= ouldn't need to do in the case where the root wasn't included.
In other words, the root domain name is "the list consisting o= f a single element, namely the null label", and not "the empty list".
=

RFC 1035 section 3.1 supports this interpretation:

"Domain names in messages are expressed in terms = of a sequence of labels. Each label is represented as a one octet leng= th field followed by that number of octets.  Since every domain n= ame ends with the null label of the root, a domain name is terminated = by a length byte of zero.  The high order two bits of every lengt= h octet must be zero, and the remaining six bits of the length field l= imit the label to 63 octets or less.

"To simp= lify implementations, the total length of a domain name (i.e. label oc= tets and label length octets) is restricted to 255 octets or less."

The authors of= the cheshire draft then, however, refer to RFC 2181 "Clarifications&n= bsp;to the DNS Specification" where it says
   The zero
   length full name is defined as representing the root of the DNS tree,
   and is typically written and displayed as ".".
<= /blockquote>

This section of RFC 2181 is somewhat confusing, = as it's talking about both "octets" and "separators" in the same sentence -= - "octets" implies wire encoding, but "separators" implies text encoding.
So, what's the real story here?
I think RFC 1034 and 1035 are very clear, and th= at RFC 2181 should have said something more like

'= The domain name of the root of the DNS tree is represented by a label seque= nce consisting of the the null label.  The textual form of this name i= s ".".'

/Bob


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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Mon Dec 14 10:27:50 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A41603A6A13 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 10:27:50 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Online Shop ; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 10:27:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from 22.181.95.219.jb01-home.tm.net.my (22.181.95.219.jb01-home.tm.net.my [219.95.181.22]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C771D3A68BE for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 10:27:42 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Online Shop To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Valued customer dnsext-archive@ietf.org 80% OFF on Pfizer. Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20091214182742.C771D3A68BE@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 10:27:42 -0800 (PST) Newsletter
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Mon Dec 14 10:28:00 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 261983A6A1C for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 10:28:00 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Online Shop ; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 10:27:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from 22.181.95.219.jb01-home.tm.net.my (22.181.95.219.jb01-home.tm.net.my [219.95.181.22]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C8FB3A69F5 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 10:27:53 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Online Shop To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Valued customer dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org 80% OFF on Pfizer. Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20091214182753.7C8FB3A69F5@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 10:27:53 -0800 (PST) Newsletter
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 14 11:31:48 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A173428C157; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 11:31:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.174 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.174 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.425, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rq8f1nQiiEb9; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 11:31:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9FC928C153; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 11:31:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKGR2-0008Xu-3W for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 19:18:20 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKGQw-0008XI-2x for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 19:18:14 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (69-196-144-230.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 75B222FE8CB8 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 19:18:12 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:18:10 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] Re: meeting slots for March Message-ID: <20091214191810.GR23588@shinkuro.com> References: <4B24F22A.6010900@piuha.net> <0B029989-E27D-4F4F-AFD2-ED83BE791E91@shinkuro.com> <200912141403.nBEE3uVt003832@stora.ogud.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200912141403.nBEE3uVt003832@stora.ogud.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Dear colleagues, We note that the period for requesting meeting slots for Anaheim has opened. Right now, we do not see any business before the WG that will reqire the nominally-sleeping WG to meet in Anaheim. We have a number of WGLC that will take place before the Anaheim meeting, however, and we are prepared to modify our position before the cutoff date for slot request. That cutoff is 8 Feb. In order to make planning for participants as orderly as possible, we will make a final determination by 15 Jan. If by 15 Jan we have _not_ announced that there will be a session in Anaheim, you may conclude that there will be no session. In case participants have work items that they believe the WG ought to consider in a face to face meeting, we will accept proposals for topics for a possible WG meeting agenda until 8 Jan 2010. If you have such an item in mind, please tell us as soon as possible so that we can evaluate whether a meeting is in fact needed. We make no commitment to hold a session to address an item if that item comes to our attention after 8 January. Please send all such requests to dnsext-chairs@tools.ietf.org. Best regards, Andrew & Olafur -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Mon Dec 14 11:55:45 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7270A3A681A for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 11:55:45 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char A9 hex): From: VIAGRA \251 Online Shop ; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 11:55:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201.47.160.65.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br (201.47.160.65.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br [201.47.160.65]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D06928C150 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 11:55:38 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA © Online Shop To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: For dnsext-archive special 80% OFF on Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091214195538.5D06928C150@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 11:55:38 -0800 (PST) Newsletter
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Mon Dec 14 11:55:48 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A48833A659C for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 11:55:48 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char A9 hex): From: VIAGRA \251 Online Shop ; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 11:55:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201.47.160.65.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br (201.47.160.65.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br [201.47.160.65]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D78828C158 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 11:55:41 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA © Online Shop To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: For dnsext-archive special 80% OFF on Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091214195541.7D78828C158@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 11:55:41 -0800 (PST) Newsletter
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 14 13:19:16 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 595EB3A68AF; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 13:19:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.433 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.433 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=3.166, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9bUu50FHOouU; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 13:19:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 695493A6887; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 13:19:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKI9P-000JlA-87 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 21:08:15 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKI9J-000JkI-92 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 21:08:09 +0000 Received: from [10.31.200.201] (mail.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.6]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBEL83C8006742; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 16:08:03 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 16:07:58 -0500 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Edward Lewis Subject: [dnsext] making one zone/domain act like another Cc: ed.lewis@neustar.biz Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Something thrown out for discussion...a topic that seems to have grown cold. Following up on two things - the recent thread on changing the DNAME and the discussion of Yao Jiankang's draft presented at IETF 76 - there seems to be a desire to be able to make two zones "behave the same." What does that mean? Okay, before diving into that, what about just having two domains act the same. That is a related desire - it means the top of the domain need not own an SOA (so it extends the question) and it means that the behavior transcends the zone boundary (hence it is more politically correct than saying "sameness in zone"). So, what does it mean for two domains "to act" the same? Let's call the domain we want to be "the front" X and the domain to be "the back end" Y. We want - for all non empty values of $label, the responses for $label.X/class/type to be the same as $label.Y/class/type We also want for some values of $type, the responses for X/class/$type to be the same as Y/class/$type E.g., Using a non-TLD and mixed-label-depth example, X = xn-12345.example. and Y = company1.myzone.tld.: www.xn-12345.example./IN/A and www.company1.myzone.tld./IN/A xn-12345.example./IN/MX and company1.myzone.tld./IN/MX "Some values of $type" includes - the records supporting DNSSEC, the record supporting the query redirection, and what else? SOA? NS? Or maybe anything at X? (I've written this with a mind towards the extension of DNAME proposed last week. So in the latter list I did not include DNAME nor CNAME. Otherwise we may have to include these depending on the interaction of another type with D/CNAME.) What I didn't provide details on was "be the same as". What I have in mind is - both responses have the same RDATA for the $type returned - and are just as "usable" - referring to restrictions on when a target can't be a "CNAME". E.g., www.xn-12345.example./IN/A www.xn-12345.example. IN CNAME www.company1.myzone.tld. www.company1.myzone.tld. IN A 192.0.2.34 and www.company1.myzone.tld. IN A 192.0.2.34 Are "the same as" each other. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis NeuStar You can leave a voice message at +1-571-434-5468 As with IPv6, the problem with the deployment of frictionless surfaces is that they're not getting traction. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 14 13:53:21 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A4153A68DC; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 13:53:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zDhQUx8n25JA; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 13:53:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3C3D3A692A; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 13:53:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKIjz-000NGK-VS for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 21:46:03 +0000 Received: from [209.85.212.202] (helo=mail-vw0-f202.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKIju-000NFw-0Z for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 21:45:58 +0000 Received: by vws40 with SMTP id 40so842088vws.5 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 13:45:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=oWfRGg/7Lx9pYw6fej3DB5EYsSGCVpQc/6hb50/w/Ec=; b=Re4cG3dLlnuUYRlKmix4Na9JRpsQB48LnQLY6swolagyqdkA3l0cbc8MzHcy2MqTWR GEdvRYWsZk8YXOuDuoCvE9fcbsIWhadcP+MjZLsu22ZlebFe/NV1ckEs+Q8OmCoJAdxe pzQfmWiaEHWZEPpB4fbwDkdUZkCd6Jhh7sCQQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=bL2uGRhLIy93fms4iJ81C3kaINg3K15ZPm8m+ixJ7yER0zum9+ODf2/WW6hsQ8elnc UYgVCEBsLvfPKj8JnRejb23MRiZ/zFo9LUnm1XWO8vIYs0/UvWFSh9BDvshTT+RdQOJI 9InGM+uYSBOT6VgAv2c/xzhY0NbefTd+HQNk8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.126.152 with SMTP id c24mr1005854vcs.94.1260827157119; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 13:45:57 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 15:45:57 -0600 Message-ID: <202705b0912141345t25f07433oc67e1a0f024b3a7d@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] making one zone/domain act like another From: Jorge Amodio To: Edward Lewis Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > Following up on two things - the recent thread on changing the DNAME and the > discussion of Yao Jiankang's draft presented at IETF 76 - there seems to be > a desire to be able to make two zones "behave the same." Are you looking into that as a way of serving a particular zone/s under different IDNs ? Jorge From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 14 13:59:48 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD22B3A672F; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 13:59:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.849, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qVT5SeeZ4CmU; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 13:59:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AD373A635F; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 13:59:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKIrk-000O65-Uw for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 21:54:04 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKIre-000O5Q-D1 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 21:53:58 +0000 Received: from [10.31.200.201] (gatt.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.6]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBELrpFM007135; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 16:53:53 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <202705b0912141345t25f07433oc67e1a0f024b3a7d@mail.gmail.com> References: <202705b0912141345t25f07433oc67e1a0f024b3a7d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 16:53:14 -0500 To: Jorge Amodio From: Edward Lewis Subject: Re: [dnsext] making one zone/domain act like another Cc: Edward Lewis , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: At 15:45 -0600 12/14/09, Jorge Amodio wrote: >> Following up on two things - the recent thread on changing the DNAME and the >> discussion of Yao Jiankang's draft presented at IETF 76 - there seems to be >> a desire to be able to make two zones "behave the same." > >Are you looking into that as a way of serving a particular zone/s >under different IDNs ? No - just making one domain "act" like another. For whatever the purpose. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis NeuStar You can leave a voice message at +1-571-434-5468 As with IPv6, the problem with the deployment of frictionless surfaces is that they're not getting traction. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 14 14:23:36 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49F353A6849; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:23:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.215 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.215 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.384, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XPMdbdxZrMlu; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:23:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92FA13A635F; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:23:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKJ9y-0000Ax-Df for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:12:54 +0000 Received: from [192.245.12.227] (helo=balder-227.proper.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKJ9s-0000AL-BV for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:12:48 +0000 Received: from [10.20.30.158] (75-101-30-90.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [75.101.30.90]) (authenticated bits=0) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id nBEMChAi046322 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 14 Dec 2009 15:12:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <202705b0912141345t25f07433oc67e1a0f024b3a7d@mail.gmail.com> References: <202705b0912141345t25f07433oc67e1a0f024b3a7d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:12:42 -0800 To: Jorge Amodio , Edward Lewis From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: [dnsext] making one zone/domain act like another Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: At 3:45 PM -0600 12/14/09, Jorge Amodio wrote: > > Following up on two things - the recent thread on changing the DNAME and the >> discussion of Yao Jiankang's draft presented at IETF 76 - there seems to be >> a desire to be able to make two zones "behave the same." > >Are you looking into that as a way of serving a particular zone/s >under different IDNs ? It is *way* bigger than that. Think "multihoming for the DNS". --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 14 14:40:24 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8DDF3A6824; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:40:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.518 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.518 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=3.081, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DjEwUrFR+cN2; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:40:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 369A23A6821; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:40:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKJXk-0002HA-25 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:37:28 +0000 Received: from [65.99.1.130] (helo=abenaki.wabanaki.net) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKJXe-0002G6-Ao for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:37:22 +0000 Received: from limpet.local (cpe-67-241-43-7.twcny.res.rr.com [67.241.43.7]) by abenaki.wabanaki.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBEMQ1Eu041237; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 17:26:01 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ebw@abenaki.wabanaki.net) Message-ID: <4B26BE18.1060905@abenaki.wabanaki.net> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 17:37:12 -0500 From: Eric Brunner-Williams User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9.1.5) Gecko/20091204 Thunderbird/3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Edward Lewis CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] making one zone/domain act like another References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Ed, I like that you're removing the "zone mirroring" constraint and looking at the general issue of similarity. Eric From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 14 14:44:32 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 976D23A6850; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:44:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KbJTtxiGOXUY; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:44:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA5523A67B5; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:44:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKJUM-0001yi-7c for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:33:58 +0000 Received: from [2001:7b8:206:1:216:76ff:feb8:3c02] (helo=bartok.nlnetlabs.nl) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKJUF-0001y8-Tc for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:33:52 +0000 Received: from bartok.nlnetlabs.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bartok.nlnetlabs.nl (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBEMXfuw022129; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 23:33:41 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jaap@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl) Message-Id: <200912142233.nBEMXfuw022129@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> To: Paul Hoffman cc: Jorge Amodio , Edward Lewis , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] making one zone/domain act like another In-reply-to: References: <202705b0912141345t25f07433oc67e1a0f024b3a7d@mail.gmail.com> Comments: In-reply-to Paul Hoffman message dated "Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:12:42 -0800." Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 23:33:41 +0100 From: Jaap Akkerhuis X-Greylist: Sender passed SPF test, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.3 (bartok.nlnetlabs.nl [127.0.0.1]); Mon, 14 Dec 2009 23:33:42 +0100 (CET) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: It is *way* bigger than that. Think "multihoming for the DNS". I would call that "anycasting name servers". If I understand Ed properly he hints to a desire in some circles to have two or more namespaces look the same, the only difference being the name of a parent. jaap From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Mon Dec 14 14:46:20 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6932C3A67A1 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:46:20 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char A9 hex): From: VIAGRA \251 Online Shop ; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:46:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from host-84-220-9-166.cust-adsl.tiscali.it (host-84-220-9-166.cust-adsl.tiscali.it [84.220.9.166]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51A663A677E for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:46:13 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA © Online Shop To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: For dnsext-archive special 80% OFF on Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091214224613.51A663A677E@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:46:13 -0800 (PST) Newsletter
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Mon Dec 14 14:46:26 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79C033A67A1 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:46:26 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char A9 hex): From: VIAGRA \251 Online Shop ; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:46:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from host-84-220-9-166.cust-adsl.tiscali.it (host-84-220-9-166.cust-adsl.tiscali.it [84.220.9.166]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA12C3A677E for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:46:24 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA © Online Shop To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: For dnsext-archive special 80% OFF on Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091214224624.CA12C3A677E@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:46:24 -0800 (PST) Newsletter
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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CA7D0F.BE739DF0-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 14 14:52:49 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 086C63A6846; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:52:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.378, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VcC7j8hjILTd; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:52:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 541A33A6821; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:52:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKJh8-0003CO-3J for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:47:10 +0000 Received: from [192.245.12.227] (helo=balder-227.proper.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKJh1-0003Bf-VX for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:47:04 +0000 Received: from [10.20.30.158] (75-101-30-90.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [75.101.30.90]) (authenticated bits=0) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id nBEMkXWf047836 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 14 Dec 2009 15:46:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200912142233.nBEMXfuw022129@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> References: <202705b0912141345t25f07433oc67e1a0f024b3a7d@mail.gmail.com> <200912142233.nBEMXfuw022129@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:46:31 -0800 To: Jaap Akkerhuis From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: [dnsext] making one zone/domain act like another Cc: Jorge Amodio , Edward Lewis , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: At 11:33 PM +0100 12/14/09, Jaap Akkerhuis wrote: > > It is *way* bigger than that. Think "multihoming for the DNS". > >I would call that "anycasting name servers". If I understand Ed >properly he hints to a desire in some circles to have two or more >namespaces look the same, the only difference being the name of a >parent. Yes, I was being too glib. Think "what Jaap just said", which is much clearer than my attempted analogy. --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 14 16:45:11 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 733BE3A68B8; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 16:45:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qOHTS0asMwdd; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 16:45:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1917D3A68B0; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 16:45:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKLIr-000Bp2-IS for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 00:30:13 +0000 Received: from [209.85.212.202] (helo=mail-vw0-f202.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKLIl-000Boi-BQ for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 00:30:07 +0000 Received: by vws40 with SMTP id 40so882607vws.5 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 16:30:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=6uHeX6Mah8HPC6gCtVkRHuxPxy3OWA/W63lVzaYeMHY=; b=Yk5N13MKnQIsRdV6UiHM5lUxajWDhMzOs/Wt09IIb0Oo12FJvoRqxlZzxVycQ8wg2e Mgp9bl5CuyVcPfqpSl5YitQB9rfKh+nWGeYpwU/+G6JzppWNYmYGV7cNUn/v3SSUsS6F C4mz4AqYhDWxut7xyLh8TXbmgetDRmrak75JI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=RmmyRUjblPqxsi8Xd7uybY1TEptqyBuFv2MflkabjPVqoCgdZmo11O9O1tr37crzka piZJFLs5+IPeupIwqMi0xtxKeQnxHCjjaDDVYjuPuggMocskVf0kYOJs2YotkZDvMhBI Rx734XhpRdfcOqbqWN5CrhoPQAu4yeHrKa7hs= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.123.32 with SMTP id n32mr1052772vcr.48.1260837006263; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 16:30:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <200912142233.nBEMXfuw022129@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> References: <202705b0912141345t25f07433oc67e1a0f024b3a7d@mail.gmail.com> <200912142233.nBEMXfuw022129@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 18:30:06 -0600 Message-ID: <202705b0912141630p675234b1p6c324d2cef1ceeac@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] making one zone/domain act like another From: Jorge Amodio To: Jaap Akkerhuis Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > =A0 =A0It is *way* bigger than that. Think "multihoming for the DNS". > > I would call that "anycasting name servers". If I understand Ed > properly he hints to a desire in some circles to have two or more > namespaces look the same, the only difference being the name of a > parent. I guess you mean exactly the same zone data but with different SOA without having to duplicate the zone db, right ? Jorge From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 14 17:17:29 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D2EE3A694E; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 17:17:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QE1mVXL31OQr; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 17:17:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0DC33A692C; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 17:17:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKLvi-000Es7-CU for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 01:10:22 +0000 Received: from [209.85.217.211] (helo=mail-gx0-f211.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKLvc-000Er1-7g for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 01:10:16 +0000 Received: by gxk3 with SMTP id 3so5225773gxk.1 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 17:10:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=D9/KsFJG9T0IGPFLuTcA7E+6g2gJVCSMkYKBtNHkqfQ=; b=hvTjyorGoP8kJtLp4qWek4uGngJVGqXWlyMwcGjhtUOUK2gZUP2g9Zi27jsQiASFnS QmuxmNW/nNqj0jKzlNdHzROzop8S79HORtP7z1KOvsERTZuWnIqBsn5JXoUn1A7+ZBfY WMZKcjmDi7sBXx+Ai2rX05k2ovcnX07lnQnDQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ACo890hXQ7TYVgoF96odVWs+RsS6a5N+DDr4V0AiCG+t2NkcZSWLd5gTjWuqfMI4n8 rkfa9Ocr9O2Ok9ILdqjej26sSOwbXgo0okXNa1G2yj6kjgedV8GbKf1VjZ/OzbcClkHc Eyh/8sTFa88Vg+s5mlBuVKqW0ApmgIWLE9ewE= Received: by 10.150.213.7 with SMTP id l7mr8470830ybg.220.1260839415358; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 17:10:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from sjc-office-nat-214.mail-abuse.org (SJC-Office-NAT-214.mail-abuse.org [168.61.10.214]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 35sm2102169yxh.69.2009.12.14.17.10.13 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 14 Dec 2009 17:10:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4B26E1E3.2030108@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 17:09:55 -0800 From: Doug Otis User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.5) Gecko/20091204 Thunderbird/3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jorge Amodio CC: Jaap Akkerhuis , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] making one zone/domain act like another References: <202705b0912141345t25f07433oc67e1a0f024b3a7d@mail.gmail.com> <200912142233.nBEMXfuw022129@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <202705b0912141630p675234b1p6c324d2cef1ceeac@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <202705b0912141630p675234b1p6c324d2cef1ceeac@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 12/14/09 4:30 PM, Jorge Amodio wrote: >> It is *way* bigger than that. Think "multihoming for the DNS". >> >> I would call that "anycasting name servers". If I understand Ed >> properly he hints to a desire in some circles to have two or more >> namespaces look the same, the only difference being the name of a >> parent. > > I guess you mean exactly the same zone data but with different SOA > without having to duplicate the zone db, right ? In Hiroshima, there were Japanese developers that wanted different ideograms to access same the same website. They considered the issue analogous to upper and lower case in ASCII. IMHO, this type of issue should be considered analogous to look-alike domains and not upper/lower case. To be safe, this might require defensive domain registration. Rather than allowing the two ideograms to select the same website, it would be safer to wildcard (deprecate) one of the ideogram options and have it reference a page that explains which ideogram is supported within the TLD. -Doug From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 14 18:36:44 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C310A3A6837; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 18:36:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.227 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.227 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.372, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zGBzPCofYow6; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 18:36:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2A953A67E1; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 18:36:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKN9i-000LMR-6P for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 02:28:54 +0000 Received: from [192.245.12.227] (helo=balder-227.proper.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKN9b-000LLq-CS for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 02:28:47 +0000 Received: from [10.20.30.158] (75-101-30-90.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [75.101.30.90]) (authenticated bits=0) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id nBF2Sia8059939 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 19:28:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4B26E1E3.2030108@gmail.com> References: <202705b0912141345t25f07433oc67e1a0f024b3a7d@mail.gmail.com> <200912142233.nBEMXfuw022129@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <202705b0912141630p675234b1p6c324d2cef1ceeac@mail.gmail.com> <4B26E1E3.2030108@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 18:28:43 -0800 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: [dnsext] making one zone/domain act like another Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: At 5:09 PM -0800 12/14/09, Doug Otis wrote: >On 12/14/09 4:30 PM, Jorge Amodio wrote: >>> It is *way* bigger than that. Think "multihoming for the DNS". >>> >>>I would call that "anycasting name servers". If I understand Ed >>>properly he hints to a desire in some circles to have two or more >>>namespaces look the same, the only difference being the name of a >>>parent. >> >>I guess you mean exactly the same zone data but with different SOA >>without having to duplicate the zone db, right ? > >In Hiroshima, there were Japanese developers that wanted different ideograms to access same the same website. They considered the issue analogous to upper and lower case in ASCII. IMHO, this type of issue should be considered analogous to look-alike domains and not upper/lower case. To be safe, this might require defensive domain registration. Rather than allowing the two ideograms to select the same website, it would be safer to wildcard (deprecate) one of the ideogram options and have it reference a page that explains which ideogram is supported within the TLD. Please don't hijack the thread, and please don't tell others who have studied problems a lot longer than you what their problems are analogous to. For those who are on namedroppers but not IDNAbis: think of the two FQDNs with a single owner who wants the two names to be synonyms. ibm.com and ibm.net is a reasonable example. It does not matter how the two names came into existence; in fact, that is a rathole that is not relevant to the question. --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 14 19:17:04 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A8CD3A680B; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 19:17:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5Sbw6e9RWgDz; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 19:17:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 053683A6856; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 19:17:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKNkG-000OWz-Dh for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 03:06:40 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::5] (helo=farside.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKNkA-000OWZ-FI for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 03:06:34 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (drugs.dv.isc.org [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (not verified)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CDF6E60A3; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 03:06:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBF36U5w036874; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 14:06:30 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200912150306.nBF36U5w036874@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Paul Hoffman Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews References: <202705b0912141345t25f07433oc67e1a0f024b3a7d@mail.gmail.com> <200912142233.nBEMXfuw022129@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <202705b0912141630p675234b1p6c324d2cef1ceeac@mail.gmail.com> <4B26E1E3.2030108@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] making one zone/domain act like another In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 14 Dec 2009 18:28:43 -0800." Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 14:06:30 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: In message , Paul Hoffman writes: > At 5:09 PM -0800 12/14/09, Doug Otis wrote: > >On 12/14/09 4:30 PM, Jorge Amodio wrote: > >>> It is *way* bigger than that. Think "multihoming for the DNS". > >>> > >>>I would call that "anycasting name servers". If I understand Ed > >>>properly he hints to a desire in some circles to have two or more > >>>namespaces look the same, the only difference being the name of a > >>>parent. > >> > >>I guess you mean exactly the same zone data but with different SOA > >>without having to duplicate the zone db, right ? > > > >In Hiroshima, there were Japanese developers that wanted different ideograms > to access same the same website. They considered the issue analogous to upp > er and lower case in ASCII. IMHO, this type of issue should be considered an > alogous to look-alike domains and not upper/lower case. To be safe, this mig > ht require defensive domain registration. Rather than allowing the two ideogr > ams to select the same website, it would be safer to wildcard (deprecate) one > of the ideogram options and have it reference a page that explains which ide > ogram is supported within the TLD. > > Please don't hijack the thread, and please don't tell others who have studied > problems a lot longer than you what their problems are analogous to. > > For those who are on namedroppers but not IDNAbis: think of the two FQDNs wit > h a single owner who wants the two names to be synonyms. ibm.com and ibm.net > is a reasonable example. It does not matter how the two names came into exist > ence; in fact, that is a rathole that is not relevant to the question. And we made a decision 10+ years ago that "ibm.net dname ibm.com" + adding some MX records etc. at ibm.net would be a reasonable way to do this as it didn't require the TLD to support DNAME. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 14 19:29:08 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FA8C3A6993; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 19:29:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.979 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.979 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.020, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_57=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id caaY7ynm0TXL; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 19:29:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C97003A6831; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 19:29:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKNyW-000PvO-3C for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 03:21:24 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKNyQ-000Pu9-5q for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 03:21:18 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (69-196-144-230.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4A3112FE8CB8 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 03:21:16 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:21:04 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] making one zone/domain act like another Message-ID: <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> References: <202705b0912141345t25f07433oc67e1a0f024b3a7d@mail.gmail.com> <200912142233.nBEMXfuw022129@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <202705b0912141630p675234b1p6c324d2cef1ceeac@mail.gmail.com> <4B26E1E3.2030108@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Dear colleagues, On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 06:28:43PM -0800, Paul Hoffman wrote: > For those who are on namedroppers but not IDNAbis: think of the two > FQDNs with a single owner who wants the two names to be > synonyms. ibm.com and ibm.net is a reasonable example. It does not > matter how the two names came into existence; in fact, that is a > rathole that is not relevant to the question. Speaking both as a co-Chair, but without having consulted Olafur, and as someone who has followed idnabis pretty carefully, I have three things to say about Paul's remark, in decreasing order of chair-hat-ness: 1. What Paul said about irrelevant ratholes is exactly right. This WG is about protocol, and not policy. Ed Lewis put this differently up-thread, but the point is the same: it makes _no difference why_ the "two domains" need to be "the same". There is a policy-driven protocol need here, and what we're about is the protocol. So let's focus on that issue. 2. The key questions boil down to, "What does 'synonymous' mean in this context?" and, "What does 'two names' mean in this context?" We have to answer both of these questions at the same time, with respect to one another (we used to call this "synoptically", but I don't know if we do any more). DNAME, for instance, makes "the same" mean "everything underneath". That's not the desired meaning of "the same". CNAME makes "two names" mean "these two identical names" without including the delegations; that's also not the desired meaning in this case. We need to reach something that solves these two meanings at the same time. 3. Without wearing any hat, I think ibm.com and ibm.net are poor examples, because they're plainly under different DNS trees. An alternative example that I think should be at least comprehensible to English speakers is colour.example and color.example. I don't think I've met a competent reader of English who's never encountered both "color" and "colour" forms without recognizing them as different spellings of "the same" word. Now imagine that you had a keyboard that could input "colour" or "color" but not both. This is the situation in some parts of the world with respect to "variants", so there is a real acute use case here. But even if there weren't one, synonyms in the DNS tree are an obvious feature, and one for which we already have two imperfect solutions. We're the people with the expertise to make a perfect one, and if we don't then I predict someone will come up with something we don't like. So, I exhort us to tackle this problem. Best, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 14 19:37:27 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53FF33A6917; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 19:37:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.363 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.363 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.236, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Oci-SlhbEHUQ; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 19:37:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ACFB3A6870; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 19:37:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKO5h-0000WX-Bm for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 03:28:49 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKO5a-0000VO-0o for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 03:28:42 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (69-196-144-230.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 63EAB2FE8CB8 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 03:28:40 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:28:38 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] making one zone/domain act like another Message-ID: <20091215032838.GB27116@shinkuro.com> References: <202705b0912141345t25f07433oc67e1a0f024b3a7d@mail.gmail.com> <200912142233.nBEMXfuw022129@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <202705b0912141630p675234b1p6c324d2cef1ceeac@mail.gmail.com> <4B26E1E3.2030108@gmail.com> <200912150306.nBF36U5w036874@drugs.dv.isc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200912150306.nBF36U5w036874@drugs.dv.isc.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Speaking only for myself, but fully aware of where I left my hat: On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 02:06:30PM +1100, Mark Andrews wrote: > And we made a decision 10+ years ago that "ibm.net dname ibm.com" + > adding some MX records etc. at ibm.net would be a reasonable way to > do this as it didn't require the TLD to support DNAME. That sounds like an appeal to tradition: "This is what we decided some time ago; it was good enough then, so it's good enough now." Our users are saying it's _not_ good enough. I'd like to believe that we're interested enough in our users' problems that we have some reason to continue as an IETF WG. If our response to, "Users have a problem," is, "Lovely bird! Beautiful plumage!" then perhaps we ought to pack up our tents and go home. Many of you know that I am a fervent advocate of tent-packing; but as long as we're camped out, I'd like for us to tackle problems people bring us. If the present example isn't such a case, then there aren't any, and we can shut down the WG. A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 14 19:56:26 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8638F3A6924; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 19:56:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.932 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.932 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.667, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZvtAVuLj7UvD; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 19:56:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A78B73A6856; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 19:56:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKOPv-0002HS-Gs for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 03:49:43 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::5] (helo=farside.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKOPm-0002GW-D9 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 03:49:34 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (drugs.dv.isc.org [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (not verified)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94701E60A3; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 03:49:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBF3nVb1037351; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 14:49:31 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200912150349.nBF3nVb1037351@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Andrew Sullivan Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews References: <202705b0912141345t25f07433oc67e1a0f024b3a7d@mail.gmail.com> <200912142233.nBEMXfuw022129@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <202705b0912141630p675234b1p6c324d2cef1ceeac@mail.gmail.com> <4B26E1E3.2030108@gmail.com> <200912150306.nBF36U5w036874@drugs.dv.isc.org> <20091215032838.GB27116@shinkuro.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] making one zone/domain act like another In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:28:38 CDT." <20091215032838.GB27116@shinkuro.com> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 14:49:31 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: In message <20091215032838.GB27116@shinkuro.com>, Andrew Sullivan writes: > Speaking only for myself, but fully aware of where I left my hat: > > On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 02:06:30PM +1100, Mark Andrews wrote: > > > And we made a decision 10+ years ago that "ibm.net dname ibm.com" + > > adding some MX records etc. at ibm.net would be a reasonable way to > > do this as it didn't require the TLD to support DNAME. > > That sounds like an appeal to tradition: "This is what we decided some > time ago; it was good enough then, so it's good enough now." It was a engineering trade off. It works fine for lots of people. I used it myself for years. I've got no objections with defining another record which aliases itself and its children. Just don't change DNAME. It works as intended. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 14 21:28:24 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A66F63A683D; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 21:28:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ecuyU5SoEWwz; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 21:28:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44F323A672E; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 21:28:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKPoF-000Aea-GB for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 05:18:55 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKPo9-000Ae3-LA for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 05:18:49 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47159A26F3 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 05:18:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] making one zone/domain act like another In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:21:04 EST." <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> References: <202705b0912141345t25f07433oc67e1a0f024b3a7d@mail.gmail.com> <200912142233.nBEMXfuw022129@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <202705b0912141630p675234b1p6c324d2cef1ceeac@mail.gmail.com> <4B26E1E3.2030108@gmail.com> <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 05:18:49 +0000 Message-ID: <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:21:04 -0500 > From: Andrew Sullivan > > ... So, I exhort us to tackle this problem. ok. here's the five proposals on the table, and a preference shown. 1. dname alone: we did DNAME the way we did for the reasons mark andrews has recounted: it had to work at a zone apex. this was in support of bitstring labels and their attendant PTR's, which have since been deprecated, but DNAME is in use today and does what it does and repurposing it isn't an option. so, dname works for searches below the dname but not "at" the dname. 2. cname alone: a cname that points to an NS would be a nonterminal alias and doesn't work for names beneath. works fine for names "at", but not "beneath". 3. multiple NS's: political minefield since it would be "two TLD's". the policy people would love us better if we didn't make them come up with a new counting system for "how many TLD's does $registry have?" but technically it would fit pretty well, one merely expects that the below-the-delegation servers would load the same content in two zones, or that implementors would come up with an aliasing function that did not require wire changes. 4. dname and cname together: if we relax the "cname and other data" restriction to allow for both a cname and a dname at the same location so long as they have the same target name, then searches "at" would use the cname and searches "beneath" would use the dname. no wire changes, and only the delegating zone needs its servers upgraded to support the new interpretation. 5. new "ename" type: if we define "ename" (alphabetically follows c and d, you know, e?) to mean "at or beneath" then we could get the desired behaviour with only upgrades to the delegating zone's servers, but with wire changes since the synthesized cname would be accompanied by an ename not a dname. --- of these, i prefer #4. no wire changes, only requires upgrades to the delegating zone's servers, and has no political/policy costs. hope this helps. From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Mon Dec 14 22:10:27 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8AE13A68AE for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:10:26 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Official Site [...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -60.742 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-60.742 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP=1.398, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MANGLED_OFF=2.3, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, SARE_HELO_EQ_DSL_3=1.022, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_SBL=20, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IcLerDy0cgpQ for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:10:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from dsl-249-198.lemoore.y-comm.com (dsl-249-198.lemoore.y-comm.com [63.207.249.198]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A8FB63A6942 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:10:21 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Official Site To: Subject: Dear dnsext-archive@ietf.org 89% 0FF on PFIZER ! 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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 14 22:44:58 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B59213A6856; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:44:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.500, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s9libkPDeeZu; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:44:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7839D3A67AE; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:44:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKQzJ-000Gwm-FO for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 06:34:25 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::5] (helo=farside.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKQzD-000Gw9-HE for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 06:34:19 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (drugs.dv.isc.org [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (not verified)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81E0CE60A3; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 06:34:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBF6YFvb038441; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 17:34:16 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Paul Vixie Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews References: <202705b0912141345t25f07433oc67e1a0f024b3a7d@mail.gmail.com> <200912142233.nBEMXfuw022129@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <202705b0912141630p675234b1p6c324d2cef1ceeac@mail.gmail.com> <4B26E1E3.2030108@gmail.com> <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] making one zone/domain act like another In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 15 Dec 2009 05:18:49 -0000." <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 17:34:15 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: In message <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com>, Paul Vixie writes: > > Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:21:04 -0500 > > From: Andrew Sullivan > > > > ... So, I exhort us to tackle this problem. > > ok. here's the five proposals on the table, and a preference shown. > > 1. dname alone: > > we did DNAME the way we did for the reasons mark andrews has recounted: > it had to work at a zone apex. this was in support of bitstring labels > and their attendant PTR's, which have since been deprecated, but DNAME > is in use today and does what it does and repurposing it isn't an option. > so, dname works for searches below the dname but not "at" the dname. > > 2. cname alone: > > a cname that points to an NS would be a nonterminal alias and doesn't > work for names beneath. works fine for names "at", but not "beneath". > > 3. multiple NS's: > > political minefield since it would be "two TLD's". the policy people > would love us better if we didn't make them come up with a new counting > system for "how many TLD's does $registry have?" but technically it > would fit pretty well, one merely expects that the below-the-delegation > servers would load the same content in two zones, or that implementors > would come up with an aliasing function that did not require wire changes. > > 4. dname and cname together: > > if we relax the "cname and other data" restriction to allow for both a > cname and a dname at the same location so long as they have the same > target name, then searches "at" would use the cname and searches "beneath" > would use the dname. no wire changes, and only the delegating zone needs > its servers upgraded to support the new interpretation. > > 5. new "ename" type: > > if we define "ename" (alphabetically follows c and d, you know, e?) to > mean "at or beneath" then we could get the desired behaviour with only > upgrades to the delegating zone's servers, but with wire changes since > the synthesized cname would be accompanied by an ename not a dname. > > --- > > of these, i prefer #4. no wire changes, only requires upgrades to the > delegating zone's servers, and has no political/policy costs. > > hope this helps. Relaxing CNAME and DNAME multiple use has issues. What would be better is ENAME + EDNS option to say I understand ENAME and the authoritative returns a ENAME or a CNAME (not both). ENAME aware caches also return CNAMEs for non ENAME aware clients. ENAME containing zones can only be signed with new algorithms which are ENAME aware. i.e. ENAME zone are treated as insecure by the current algorithms. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Mon Dec 14 23:11:15 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75E023A6957 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 23:11:15 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Reseller ; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 23:10:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from 65-60-125-10.static-ip.telepacific.net (65-60-125-10.static-ip.telepacific.net [65.60.125.10]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEDD13A6946 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 23:10:43 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Reseller To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Dear dnsext-archive@ietf.org receive 80% OFF on Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091215071043.EEDD13A6946@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 23:10:43 -0800 (PST) Pfizer ® Newsletter
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Mon Dec 14 23:11:23 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B7963A67F2 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 23:11:23 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Reseller ; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 23:11:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from 65-60-125-10.static-ip.telepacific.net (65-60-125-10.static-ip.telepacific.net [65.60.125.10]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C842C3A67BD for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2009 23:11:08 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Reseller To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Dear dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org receive 80% OFF on Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091215071108.C842C3A67BD@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 23:11:08 -0800 (PST) Pfizer ® Newsletter
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 15 00:47:43 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5397C3A69AE; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 00:47:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.400, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_55=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_57=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TRhwxTNFqgc4; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 00:47:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F356B3A68E8; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 00:47:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKSwk-0003he-Cq for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 08:39:54 +0000 Received: from [204.14.89.4] (helo=mail2.fluidhosting.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKSwa-0003h4-I4 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 08:39:44 +0000 Received: (qmail 13832 invoked by uid 399); 15 Dec 2009 08:39:43 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO foreign.dougb.net) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTPAM; 15 Dec 2009 08:39:43 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Sender: dougb@dougbarton.us Message-ID: <4B274B58.8080400@dougbarton.us> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 00:39:52 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20091206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrew Sullivan CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, "Paul A. Vixie" Subject: Re: [dnsext] making one zone/domain act like another References: <202705b0912141345t25f07433oc67e1a0f024b3a7d@mail.gmail.com> <200912142233.nBEMXfuw022129@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <202705b0912141630p675234b1p6c324d2cef1ceeac@mail.gmail.com> <4B26E1E3.2030108@gmail.com> <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> In-Reply-To: <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D5B2F0FB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Andrew Sullivan wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > Speaking both as a co-Chair, but without having consulted Olafur, and > as someone who has followed idnabis pretty carefully, I have three > things to say about Paul's remark, in decreasing order of > chair-hat-ness: > > 1. What Paul said about irrelevant ratholes is exactly right. > This WG is about protocol, and not policy. Ed Lewis put this > differently up-thread, but the point is the same: it makes > _no difference why_ the "two domains" need to be "the same". > There is a policy-driven protocol need here, and what we're about > is the protocol. So let's focus on that issue. Fair enough, but let's define precisely what it is that we're trying to make work rather than using Rube-Goldbergian examples. Off the top of my head it would be nice if a given string (whether IDN or otherwise) can be made exactly equivalent to another given string _without_ the need for multiple delegations whether we are at the root, TLD, or domain-holder levels. Is that what we're discussing? Is there any other intended use case? > 2. The key questions boil down to, "What does 'synonymous' mean > in this context?" and, "What does 'two names' mean in this > context?" We have to answer both of these questions at the same > time, with respect to one another (we used to call this > "synoptically", but I don't know if we do any more). DNAME, for > instance, makes "the same" mean "everything underneath". That's > not the desired meaning of "the same". CNAME makes "two names" > mean "these two identical names" without including the > delegations; that's also not the desired meaning in this case. We > need to reach something that solves these two meanings at the same > time. To this issue Paul V. responded: > 4. dname and cname together: > > if we relax the "cname and other data" restriction to allow for > both a cname and a dname at the same location so long as they have > the same target name, then searches "at" would use the cname and > searches "beneath" would use the dname. no wire changes, and only > the delegating zone needs its servers upgraded to support > the new interpretation. Ok, so I'm a parent, and I have NS and DS records for 'domain' and I add 'variant1 CNAME domain'. I can see how the NS records would be used in a direct query for 'variant1 NS' but I don't see (and once again, this is probably my ignorance) how the DS records for 'domain' would be useful. Aren't the DNSKEY records (and the corresponding keys) domain-specific? Also, continue to assume I'm ignorant for the purpose of making sure we're all talking about exactly the same thing. What would an example configuration of this proposal look like at the parent AND child levels? OTOH, I don't really see how the CNAME+DNAME combination is "better" from a _protocol_ standpoint than duplicate records at the parent level. I understand that (as Paul pointed out) there are political issues surrounding this, but as Andrew rightly pointed out, the political issues are not our bailiwick. Furthermore AFAICS the DNAME case is a non-starter for the political AND protocol reasons that it makes the variant zone(s) "less than" the "front end" zone as a result of the CNAME synthesis. You can't use label.variant1.tld on the RHS of an NS or MX record because to the resolver it will ultimately be a CNAME. (I would also argue that adding CNAME synthesis to DNAME was a mistake in the first place, and actually hindered rather than eased adoption, but that's a topic for another email/thread/lifetime.) So assuming that DNAME is not an issue at the parent, the child who wants to do "The Right ThingTM" has two choices, DNAME + duplicate apex records (A, DS, NS, etc.) or point the various zone definitions at the same zone file. If DNAME is not actually a solution here we are ultimately left with trusting the child to point the different zone definitions at the same zone file. > 3. Without wearing any hat, I think ibm.com and ibm.net are poor > examples, because they're plainly under different DNS trees. I actually think that this is a really good example since as someone who manages lots of zones in different name spaces that I would like to easily configure to be the same I'd really like to have a better solution for this problem, although I think that DNAME already solves 90% of it. > An > alternative example that I think should be at least comprehensible > to English speakers is colour.example and color.example. I don't > think I've met a competent reader of English who's never > encountered both "color" and "colour" forms without recognizing > them as different spellings of "the same" word. Now imagine that > you had a keyboard that could input "colour" or "color" but not > both. This is the situation in some parts of the world with > respect to "variants", so there is a real acute use case here. This use case I understand, thanks for clarifying. Unless I'm missing something that leaves two possibilities using existing solutions at the parent level DNAME (whether you include CNAME or not) and duplicate delegations (again, whether that is via CNAME or not). As above, DNAME is not a viable solution. I'd also like to point out that any sort of solution that involves changes in the resolvers is (also) a non-starter for both political and protocol reasons. This problem needs to have been solved yesterday, and the people who need the solution will not accept one that relies on everyone in the world sitting behind an updated resolver. So we're really left with trusting the child to do the right thing, which means we're also back to "existing solutions are already sufficient" in the parent, which means we can all go home. > But even if there weren't one, synonyms in the DNS tree are an > obvious feature, and one for which we already have two imperfect > solutions. We're the people with the expertise to make a perfect > one, and if we don't then I predict someone will come up with > something we don't like. Too late. :) But I digress ... Doug -- Improve the effectiveness of your Internet presence with a domain name makeover! http://SupersetSolutions.com/ From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Tue Dec 15 03:55:41 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFAB03A69F6 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 03:55:41 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Online Shop ; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 03:55:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp089210234210.dsl.hol.gr (ppp089210234210.dsl.hol.gr [89.210.234.210]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 220643A69F1 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 03:55:39 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Online Shop To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Valued customer dnsext-archive@ietf.org 80% OFF on Pfizer. Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20091215115540.220643A69F1@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 03:55:39 -0800 (PST) Newsletter
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Tue Dec 15 03:55:46 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C85193A69FD for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 03:55:46 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Online Shop ; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 03:55:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp089210234210.dsl.hol.gr (ppp089210234210.dsl.hol.gr [89.210.234.210]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D2523A69F1 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 03:55:45 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Online Shop To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Valued customer dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org 80% OFF on Pfizer. Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20091215115545.3D2523A69F1@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 03:55:45 -0800 (PST) Newsletter
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 15 04:55:34 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCD603A6A03; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 04:55:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.932 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.932 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.667, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v0S3CSIKQhnu; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 04:55:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2B6B3A68BB; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 04:55:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKWj0-0005Bg-Fq for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 12:41:58 +0000 Received: from [209.85.212.202] (helo=mail-vw0-f202.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKWiq-0005Ax-TP for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 12:41:49 +0000 Received: by vws40 with SMTP id 40so1047790vws.5 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 04:41:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=70Ik5K+EGu5c9PMuALWWaWT6CECmMmJTWHLgg34RHfA=; b=eeqY+PKg+OE5kVsjsmBEhyLf4FtWW3/41ywA6qN0/2zF30D138IoN/eHLNBDOSgUvx 2A3KjK/XYaemigzPWg4IGpEeja/6Sh/bA+ISEBzq9Z449lAFB3ILBuzt+D7RzV6J0k7G 7lWVO7GD/GPjOfVgsvAcf/X5gFxw9uK2Y+44o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ff+CPW/t7iFYmr6fGM8LwdL1jk/zkoN1SExj7anCh/AixEba1sdQusNcaOgNYplBh1 v5swjA+fPlnqe6ptgy40x7NaSRgtO1R0+tx8TGICEjWFpaC2lN4RSqr0Mz6JI0grS4Jg 3v0PP0RzNozFOzrLIKDbwoyqMAE9Ta22DJFpw= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.121.203 with SMTP id i11mr1157124vcr.51.1260880907488; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 04:41:47 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B274B58.8080400@dougbarton.us> References: <202705b0912141345t25f07433oc67e1a0f024b3a7d@mail.gmail.com> <200912142233.nBEMXfuw022129@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <202705b0912141630p675234b1p6c324d2cef1ceeac@mail.gmail.com> <4B26E1E3.2030108@gmail.com> <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <4B274B58.8080400@dougbarton.us> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 06:41:47 -0600 Message-ID: <202705b0912150441o65d0cb8fj2ad89cf9c6f3e1d7@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] making one zone/domain act like another From: Jorge Amodio To: Doug Barton Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: >> =A0 =A0 3. =A0Without wearing any hat, I think ibm.com and ibm.net are p= oor >> =A0 =A0 examples, because they're plainly under different DNS trees. > > I actually think that this is a really good example since as someone > who manages lots of zones in different name spaces that I would like > to easily configure to be the same I'd really like to have a better > solution for this problem, although I think that DNAME already solves > 90% of it. Yes, but I think Andrew's example about color vs colour is more representat= ive. When I read Edward 's question the first image that came to my mind was IDN. For example without going to a more complex script nandu.com, niandu.com, =F1andu.com, nand=FA.com, niand=FA.com and =F1and=FA= .com may represent the same name space in spanish. I guess you can create multiple delegations with different SOA/NS/DS/etc and include on each zone the same set of RRs, but that will sort be a waste of resources on the server to handle duplicate/n-plicate RRs on each zone and a potential for lack of consistency between delegations. Not really clear about how to handle DNSSEC, but my understanding is that each delegation will require to have its own stuff, ie additional admin load to handle the same set of RRs. I don't see how you can easily handle this type of situations with CNAME and DNAME. Regards Jorge From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 15 05:22:14 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED96F3A68E1; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 05:22:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.059 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.059 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.541, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zB00AHOVKes8; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 05:22:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 200003A69E0; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 05:22:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKXEN-0008rU-EN for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 13:14:23 +0000 Received: from [65.99.1.130] (helo=abenaki.wabanaki.net) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKXEH-0008qV-IG for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 13:14:17 +0000 Received: from limpet.local (cpe-67-241-43-7.twcny.res.rr.com [67.241.43.7]) by abenaki.wabanaki.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBFD2YTc047124; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 08:02:34 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ebw@abenaki.wabanaki.net) Message-ID: <4B278B93.6090209@abenaki.wabanaki.net> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 08:13:55 -0500 From: Eric Brunner-Williams User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9.1.5) Gecko/20091204 Thunderbird/3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Vixie CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] making one zone/domain act like another References: <202705b0912141345t25f07433oc67e1a0f024b3a7d@mail.gmail.com> <200912142233.nBEMXfuw022129@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <202705b0912141630p675234b1p6c324d2cef1ceeac@mail.gmail.com> <4B26E1E3.2030108@gmail.com> <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> In-Reply-To: <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 12/15/09 12:18 AM, Paul Vixie wrote: >> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:21:04 -0500 >> From: Andrew Sullivan >> >> ... So, I exhort us to tackle this problem. > > ok. here's the five proposals on the table, and a preference shown. =2E.. > 3. multiple NS's: > > political minefield since it would be "two TLD's". the policy people > would love us better if we didn't make them come up with a new counting= > system for "how many TLD's does $registry have?" but technically it > would fit pretty well, one merely expects that the below-the-delegation= > servers would load the same content in two zones, or that implementors > would come up with an aliasing function that did not require wire chang= es. Paul, There are a couple of use cases I'm aware of: o a variant character pair in some TLD applications, such as "mumble"=20 in Arabic and Farsi, where the final character "m" is, or isn't=20 dotted, and the dot isn't displayed in the terminal form of the dotted=20 character. Add to this the well-known SC/TC case. o two visually distinguishable strings, such as "duck soup" and "=E9=B8=AD= =E6=B1=A4"=20 (y=C4=81 t=C4=81ng), where some association, meaning, sound, color on Tue= sday,=20 has caused one applicant to apply for both strings, again, for a TLD. o two arbitrary graphs, such as "polka-dots" and "polka-dots.stripes",=20 where again, some association, has caused one operator to create a=20 corresponding name space, which may be a sparse set of correspondences. Some non-CJK examples that just dropped into my inbox: "... from LDH/extended ASCII (.aero/.=C3=A6ro), or even a cyrillic/LDH=20 example (.=D1=81=D0=BE=D0=BC/.com) ..." So, a plurality of labels, single operator, and a plurality of labels,=20 cooperating operators, where some of the plurality is to create=20 "beneficial sameness" (or prevent 3rd-party difference within some=20 expectation of sameness, or simply the absence of some instance of the=20 desired plurality), and some of the plurality is create "beneficial=20 difference", within some expectation of difference, with the same=20 3rd-party and absence non-goals. My point is that the policy expectation you offer may not fit the use=20 cases I'm aware of. The "political minefield" of "two TLDs" may not be=20 a policy non-requirement. This is not a settled issue and is the=20 subject of present negotiation. My two beads worth, Eric From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 15 07:13:33 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B974D3A67EC; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 07:13:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.632 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.632 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.367, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_55=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v4dUtjlmbcJ6; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 07:13:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63E7D3A6A83; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 07:13:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKYs8-000Jxl-Q4 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 14:59:32 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKYs1-000JxJ-RV for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 14:59:25 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 622ABA27AA for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 14:59:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: replacement of proposal (Re: [dnsext] making one zone/domain act like another ) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 15 Dec 2009 17:34:15 +1100." <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> References: <202705b0912141345t25f07433oc67e1a0f024b3a7d@mail.gmail.com> <200912142233.nBEMXfuw022129@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <202705b0912141630p675234b1p6c324d2cef1ceeac@mail.gmail.com> <4B26E1E3.2030108@gmail.com> <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 14:59:25 +0000 Message-ID: <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: i've switched my support to a different proposal, and also enumerated a road not taken (or at least, a road i hope this WG chooses not to take.) > From: Mark Andrews > Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 17:34:15 +1100 > > Relaxing CNAME and DNAME multiple use has issues. "has issues" is not a term of art here. further explaination requested. > What would be better is ENAME + EDNS option to say I understand > ENAME and the authoritative returns a ENAME or a CNAME (not both). > > ENAME aware caches also return CNAMEs for non ENAME aware clients. > > ENAME containing zones can only be signed with new algorithms which > are ENAME aware. i.e. ENAME zone are treated as insecure by the > current algorithms. i now realize that there's a flaw in CNAME+DNAME which is shares with DNAME, and that is: clients who do not understand DNAME or ENAME will have to get all of their CNAMEs from the delegating zone (which will often be the root). this was not a problem in DNAME's original use case (bitstring label PTR's) but it's a big problem for TLD aliasing (as for example in IDN.) (andrew, i don't see a way to keep the use case out of the design, since as you can see, some proposals fit some use cases but not others.) therefore my preference shifts to: > 3. multiple NS's: > > political minefield since it would be "two TLD's". the policy people > would love us better if we didn't make them come up with a new counting > system for "how many TLD's does $registry have?" but technically it > would fit pretty well, one merely expects that the below-the-delegation > servers would load the same content in two zones, or that implementors > would come up with an aliasing function that did not require wire changes. ...and policy be damned. as a DNS implementor, i see no difficulty in offering zone aliasing services below the delegation point. in BIND this would look something like zone "ibm.net" { type alias; other-zone "ibm.com"; }; since the only servers who would need such configuration belong to the zone being aliased -- that is, there are no other wire changes, no changes in the delegating parent other than adding another NS, no changes to the rest of the recursive world -- the only effect will be that on the primary and secondaries for affected zones, some off-broadway hack like the above will be necessary for any zone operator who doesn't want to "load a zone" twice -- assuming that they load zones at all. in powerdns i expect this would be two DNS entry points into the same underlying database, rather than some kind of zone-to-zone alias like i describe for BIND. --- if we (this WG) decide that we really want wire protocol support for this kind of aliasing, then we have to move the CNAME synthesis to be below the delegation point. in that case we'd define ENAME differently: as a CNAME that functioned as an rrtype catchall for a single node in the tree. so, DNAME+ENAME at ibm.net's apex could collectively redirect names "beneath" as well as types "at" the node in question. ENAME would be like a wildcard that only affected its owner name and only matched types not present. it would never be sent in normal responses, only in zone transfers, and direct queries for the ENAME type itself, since it could only be processed on the authority server. i do not much like this solution, since it means CNAME synthesis for all names in the alias zone, with no eventual rollout of ENAME-cognizant code in recursive servers to lower the long term synthesis burden. but if this WG wants a wire protocol change, this is the one folks have thought of. a similar problem exists for repurposing DNAME, which is that since it can exist at an apex (and would have to continue to do so when repurposed, in order to avoid putting the CNAME synthesis burden on the root servers), it could only be processed by the authority servers, since no other server (*) would be sure what rr types not to apply it to in the "at" case. maybe it's just SOA and NS, but maybe there's other stuff (DNSSEC metatypes, and so on). so even if we were willing to deprecate DNAME in its current form and repurpose this codepoint, it would still have the same problem that a DNAME+ENAME solution (as described above) would have. (*) note that if we presume universal deployment of DNSSEC, then a signed zone with reachable SEP's would allow full validators to prove the nonexistence of a type at an apex, without being authoritative for it, but this would be screwball comedy, and i don't expect anybody to propose it. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 15 07:46:48 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8FFC3A6A8E; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 07:46:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VJXz5-FNEY2e; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 07:46:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F90A3A6A8B; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 07:46:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKZUO-000OAD-I1 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 15:39:04 +0000 Received: from [195.54.233.70] (helo=hutch.rfc1035.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKZUI-000O9b-KG for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 15:38:58 +0000 Received: from gromit.rfc1035.com (gromit.rfc1035.com [195.54.233.69]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jim) by hutch.rfc1035.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E18DC1542837; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 15:38:54 +0000 (GMT) Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Message-Id: From: Jim Reid To: Paul Vixie In-Reply-To: <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Subject: [dnsext] cloning zones Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 15:38:54 +0000 References: <202705b0912141345t25f07433oc67e1a0f024b3a7d@mail.gmail.com> <200912142233.nBEMXfuw022129@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <202705b0912141630p675234b1p6c324d2cef1ceeac@mail.gmail.com> <4B26E1E3.2030108@gmail.com> <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 15 Dec 2009, at 14:59, Paul Vixie wrote: > as a DNS implementor, i see no difficulty in > offering zone aliasing services below the delegation point. in BIND > this > would look something like > > zone "ibm.net" { > type alias; > other-zone "ibm.com"; > }; > > since the only servers who would need such configuration belong to the > zone being aliased How would this work when one of these two apexes is signed and the other isn't? BTW if both zones are signed they'd have discrete RRsigs and would also need different owner-names for their ZSKs and KSKs. That pretty much suggests a Q&D hack to clone zones will implode. A zone is a zone: an independently managed part of the name space. A DNS protocol extension to "clone" zones -- if that's what we're talking about here -- is not the way to solve what looks to be a provisioning problem. Just generate N zone files (or equivalent) from the same data source and we're done. Hardware's cheap. DNS engineer time isn't. IMO doing something clever with ENAMEs or on-the-fly CNAME synthesis is asking for trouble: extra ugliness with wildcards, more cacheing complexity, zone cut semantics for delegations under the cloned zone(s), new DNSSEC corner cases, etc. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 15 08:15:11 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA7093A62C1; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 08:15:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.453 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.453 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.146, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fM-t+l3AUN2u; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 08:15:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B92B33A6A14; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 08:15:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKZvA-0001tH-Vf for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 16:06:44 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKZv5-0001sM-Aq for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 16:06:39 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (69-196-144-230.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F3C842FE8CB8 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 16:06:36 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 11:06:35 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] cloning zones Message-ID: <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> References: <200912142233.nBEMXfuw022129@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <202705b0912141630p675234b1p6c324d2cef1ceeac@mail.gmail.com> <4B26E1E3.2030108@gmail.com> <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: No hat. On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 03:38:54PM +0000, Jim Reid wrote: > A zone is a zone: an independently managed part of the name space. A DNS > protocol extension to "clone" zones -- if that's what we're talking about > here -- is not the way to solve what looks to be a provisioning problem. > Just generate N zone files (or equivalent) from the same data source and > we're done. Hardware's cheap. DNS engineer time isn't. Now our problem is that we're not actually solving the use case. We're saying, "You, zone person, solve this." Suppose that I am the operator of example.org, and I have a local policy that alternative spelling of "the same word" [1] must always be delegated the same way. If I delegate color.example.org and colour.example.org to the same delegee, how can I be certain that color.example.org and colour.example.org _really are_ the same? Ok, you say, but DNS is only loosely coherence. Who cares? Well, the people who have not two such zones, but 10 "variants" that are all "the same word" do in fact have a problem, because if they're really different zones and not all aliases for one another, then the looseness is exposed in a way that confuses users even more than they are confused now. We can, of course, just say, "No." That's what we've done for many years, to the extent anyone asked for this feature. [1] Yes, yes, I know that Quine showed how preposterous an idea that is. The idea is nevertheless deeply entrenched in this discussion, and we're never going to get away from it, so let's just take it as an assumption for this example. RFC 4290 tries to define variant rigorously exactly to avoid having language come into it, but I think the effect there is a useful formalism that hides the basic thing people are trying to do. -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Tue Dec 15 08:54:50 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E33503A6AA4 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 08:54:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -59.467 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-59.467 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=11.482, BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MANGLED_OFF=2.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aNoEfnahKftT for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 08:54:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from 71-100-17-190.fibertel.com.ar (71-100-17-190.fibertel.com.ar [190.17.100.71]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95A503A6AA8 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 08:54:49 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA Store To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Member dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org get 80% 0FF on ALL Pfizer. 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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Tue Dec 15 08:55:01 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D78063A6AA4 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 08:55:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -48.552 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-48.552 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=22.397, BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MANGLED_OFF=2.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PsJ-nYxvEiKx for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 08:55:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from 71-100-17-190.fibertel.com.ar (71-100-17-190.fibertel.com.ar [190.17.100.71]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 543493A6AB0 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 08:55:00 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA Store To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Member dnsext-archive@ietf.org get 80% 0FF on ALL Pfizer. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091215165500.543493A6AB0@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 08:55:00 -0800 (PST) News Today
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 15 09:27:47 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF1F73A6A9E; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 09:27:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.009 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.009 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.590, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ofMF6+RrilGg; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 09:27:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FE373A67A3; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 09:27:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKb3U-0009JZ-Di for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 17:19:24 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKb3O-0009J5-1s for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 17:19:18 +0000 Received: from [10.31.200.227] (ns.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.6]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBFHIuJx014788; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 12:18:58 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> References: <202705b0912141345t25f07433oc67e1a0f024b3a7d@mail.gmail.com> <200912142233.nBEMXfuw022129@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <202705b0912141630p675234b1p6c324d2cef1ceeac@mail.gmail.com> <4B26E1E3.2030108@gmail.com> <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 12:00:46 -0500 To: Paul Vixie From: Edward Lewis Subject: Re: replacement of proposal (Re: [dnsext] making one zone/domain act like another ) Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: At 14:59 +0000 12/15/09, Paul Vixie wrote: >...and policy be damned. as a DNS implementor, i see no difficulty in ...and operations be damned. (The IETF wonders why operators drop out...) The downside to this approach from the point of view of a zone operator is that having multiple copies means (at least) more memory ( in general hardware resources) needed and/or more to weed through to get to the answer. Caches have to hold more data, etc. An operator would need to manage DNSSEC key policy for each zone, now instead of one DNSKEY set, there are multiple (one per copy). Even if there was already one key for the copy, if there was indirection then that key is barely used. If all the keys are fully used, think of the unneeded cryptographic over-workload. And an operator would have to implement consistency checks to make sure cruft does not build up due to various hiccups over the years. In a large zone, cruft becomes harder to identify. >offering zone aliasing services below the delegation point. Which is a subset of the problem. Two *domains* acting the same, not two zones. >in BIND this >would look something like > > zone "ibm.net" { > type alias; > other-zone "ibm.com"; > }; The world is not a BIND configuration file. Yes, this would be simple to type into BIND, but this doesn't answer the question of "what is equivalence." Equivalence...in a mathematical sense. >if we (this WG) decide that we really want wire protocol support for this >kind of aliasing, then we have to move the CNAME synthesis to be below the "Don't let the bus drivers determine the route." This is not for the benefit of the WG. As far as this from another message, Mark Andrews wrote: #And we made a decision 10+ years ago that "ibm.net dname ibm.com" + #adding some MX records etc. at ibm.net would be a reasonable way to #do this as it didn't require the TLD to support DNAME. Who is "we" and why does that decision merit weight? The DNAME definition never progressed beyond Proposed Standard and is opened up for a revision currently before the WG. The evidence would suggest that whomever "we" were 10+ years ago made an incomplete decision, one that has not stood the test of time. >and repurpose this codepoint, it would still have the same problem that a >DNAME+ENAME solution (as described above) would have. As we don't have an agreed upon "goal" stated, I think it is premature to declare any "solutions" and further "problem that a ... solution" has. Thanks to Chair Andrew for driving the discussion back from policy to protocol and for raising the equivalence issue back up. If namedroppers is to keep value as a communications channel for DNS protocol development, it cannot be an "anything goes" channel. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis NeuStar You can leave a voice message at +1-571-434-5468 As with IPv6, the problem with the deployment of frictionless surfaces is that they're not getting traction. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 15 09:31:47 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88CEF3A6AE5; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 09:31:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -112.006 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-112.006 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-7.166, BAYES_20=-0.74, RCVD_IN_BSP_OTHER=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xnFuCGSwoPRR; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 09:31:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E6C73A6AC3; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 09:31:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKb97-0009n7-8v for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 17:25:13 +0000 Received: from [208.31.42.53] (helo=gal.iecc.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKb90-0009m6-Bl for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 17:25:06 +0000 Received: (qmail 41577 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2009 17:25:04 -0000 Received: from mail1.iecc.com (208.31.42.56) by mail1.iecc.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2009 17:25:04 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=k0912; olt=johnl@user.iecc.com; bh=4pVQASMZdOo4ax4B+ji+r3avP3EOh2N+AC8Fa/R0IgA=; b=dm2XKWx612nT8uk0aRVsrgk4Wyqr6tqj4gSaz8LtMnAr3zIJhAH/VojVHuB4b4SQALCM6MVXmf30q4GO3FsFZzm+M4I1MgqPJ7sOQlyXRvJhQMGMihv5oAzMK+G+1q6bFtvN1Ew8wW7jl/rVUYXH0mPDqtEGKd9FN4N8y7C+vB0= Date: 15 Dec 2009 17:25:04 -0000 Message-ID: <20091215172504.7450.qmail@simone.iecc.com> From: John Levine To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] making one zone/domain act like another In-Reply-To: <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> Organization: X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: >political minefield since it would be "two TLD's". the policy people >would love us better if we didn't make them come up with a new counting >system for "how many TLD's does $registry have?" My impression is that this is 80% a political problem and 20% a technical problem. If the goal is to serve the same zone under two names, there's a variety of hacks as Paul just said. (My preferred one is to adjust the perl scripts that manage my DNS now, but tastes vary.) An approach that doesn't placate the TLD counters isn't going to be adopted, righ? So how do we figure out what they'll believe is "the same"? R's, John From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 15 11:47:46 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31FC63A68CD; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 11:47:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ujrM77KDgyNx; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 11:47:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 110883A6AA0; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 11:47:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKdEX-000OkU-Q8 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 19:38:57 +0000 Received: from [195.54.233.70] (helo=hutch.rfc1035.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKdES-000OjS-1v for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 19:38:52 +0000 Received: from gromit.rfc1035.com (gromit.rfc1035.com [195.54.233.69]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jim) by hutch.rfc1035.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D16131542837; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 19:38:49 +0000 (GMT) Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Message-Id: <5D65FA09-336E-4BB9-A563-83C3717C94DC@rfc1035.com> From: Jim Reid To: Andrew Sullivan In-Reply-To: <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Subject: Re: [dnsext] cloning zones Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 19:38:49 +0000 References: <200912142233.nBEMXfuw022129@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <202705b0912141630p675234b1p6c324d2cef1ceeac@mail.gmail.com> <4B26E1E3.2030108@gmail.com> <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 15 Dec 2009, at 16:06, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > Now our problem is that we're not actually solving the use case. > We're saying, "You, zone person, solve this." Yup: works for me.... :-) In this case, that is The Right Thing to do IMO. It's not clear that the use case is compelling enough to be a real problem. And even if it is, it's still far away from justifying more complexity and protocol corner cases for authoritative servers and resolvers. > Suppose that I am the operator of example.org, and I have a local > policy that alternative spelling of "the same word" [1] must always be > delegated the same way. > > If I delegate color.example.org and colour.example.org to the same > delegee, how can I be certain that color.example.org and > colour.example.org _really are_ the same? Why should/could that be a problem for this WG? These are your zones managed according to your rules that nobody else needs to know or care about. [Not that I'm personalising this.] In other words, it's a local provisioning issue. How someone organises their bit of the name space and the local policies for that are nobody else's business. That's what delegation means. :-) The scenario posed here is one of local policy or administrative convenience. That is not a sound basis to justify protocol changes, especially ones as far-reaching and complex as an ENAME RRtype could be. Besides, it's a Bad Idea (tm) to invent technical solutions to non-technical problems: NSEC3 anyone? From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 15 12:25:37 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB61B3A68DD; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 12:25:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZgZzZTbhsJXM; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 12:25:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B28373A6905; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 12:25:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKdls-0002wX-8Y for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 20:13:24 +0000 Received: from [204.14.89.4] (helo=mail2.fluidhosting.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKdll-0002vp-W9 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 20:13:18 +0000 Received: (qmail 6257 invoked by uid 399); 15 Dec 2009 20:13:16 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO foreign.dougb.net) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTPAM; 15 Dec 2009 20:13:16 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Sender: dougb@dougbarton.us Message-ID: <4B27EDDC.1000507@dougbarton.us> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 12:13:16 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20091206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Brunner-Williams CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] making one zone/domain act like another References: <202705b0912141345t25f07433oc67e1a0f024b3a7d@mail.gmail.com> <200912142233.nBEMXfuw022129@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <202705b0912141630p675234b1p6c324d2cef1ceeac@mail.gmail.com> <4B26E1E3.2030108@gmail.com> <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <4B278B93.6090209@abenaki.wabanaki.net> In-Reply-To: <4B278B93.6090209@abenaki.wabanaki.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D5B2F0FB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Eric Brunner-Williams wrote: > So, a plurality of labels, single operator, and a plurality of labels, > cooperating operators, where some of the plurality is to create > "beneficial sameness" (or prevent 3rd-party difference within some > expectation of sameness, or simply the absence of some instance of the > desired plurality), and some of the plurality is create "beneficial > difference", within some expectation of difference, with the same > 3rd-party and absence non-goals. > > My point is that the policy expectation you offer may not fit the use > cases I'm aware of. The "political minefield" of "two TLDs" may not be a > policy non-requirement. This is not a settled issue and is the subject > of present negotiation. If you were trying to obfuscate your meaning here you could not have done a better job, congratulations. :) Doug -- Improve the effectiveness of your Internet presence with a domain name makeover! http://SupersetSolutions.com/ From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 15 12:56:06 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC4963A67E5; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 12:56:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.432 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.432 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.567, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ch-LP6lMvATM; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 12:56:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F88A3A67AF; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 12:56:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKeHe-0005jS-4v for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 20:46:14 +0000 Received: from [204.14.89.4] (helo=mail2.fluidhosting.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKeHX-0005hm-HM for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 20:46:07 +0000 Received: (qmail 27441 invoked by uid 399); 15 Dec 2009 20:46:06 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO foreign.dougb.net) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTPAM; 15 Dec 2009 20:46:06 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Sender: dougb@dougbarton.us Message-ID: <4B27F58D.1020902@dougbarton.us> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 12:46:05 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20091206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrew Sullivan CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] cloning zones References: <200912142233.nBEMXfuw022129@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <202705b0912141630p675234b1p6c324d2cef1ceeac@mail.gmail.com> <4B26E1E3.2030108@gmail.com> <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> In-Reply-To: <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D5B2F0FB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Andrew Sullivan wrote: > No hat. > > On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 03:38:54PM +0000, Jim Reid wrote: >> A zone is a zone: an independently managed part of the name space. A DNS >> protocol extension to "clone" zones -- if that's what we're talking about >> here -- is not the way to solve what looks to be a provisioning problem. >> Just generate N zone files (or equivalent) from the same data source and >> we're done. Hardware's cheap. DNS engineer time isn't. > > Now our problem is that we're not actually solving the use case. > We're saying, "You, zone person, solve this." What *I* am saying is that there is no way to solve the "variant" use case (whether that's at the TLD level or higher) without trusting the delegee to Do The Right ThingTM. Furthermore, I am saying that there is no way to truly make what you and Ed seem to be describing (treat every variant as an exact, functional duplicate of the "front end" domain in every way, for every purpose, including DNSSEC) without changes to the resolvers, which is problematic politically as well. > Suppose that I am the operator of example.org, and I have a local > policy that alternative spelling of "the same word" [1] must always be > delegated the same way. > > If I delegate color.example.org and colour.example.org to the same > delegee, how can I be certain that color.example.org and > colour.example.org _really are_ the same? You can't, and you never will be able to. I actually have an idea that I'll add to the end of this message, but no matter what c!3VeR h4cKz we come up with the end result is always going to be that we have to trust the delegee. So first of all, I repeat my request for a clearer definition of the problem, political thorns and all. Those who have a distaste for trying to craft technical solutions to solve policy disputes are free not to participate. Meanwhile, I knew I should have posted this last night because it's related to the subject of your message and I don't want to sound derivative, but my idea is a completely new RR called CLONE. In the parent, you configure your zone thusly: domain NS ns1.domain.tld. ... domain DS blah variant1 CLONE domain variant2 CLONE domain ... Since Paul already said he's feeling agreeable towards config file support for this kind of idea, in a BIND server you might do something like this for the variants (assuming "normal" configuration of domain.tld): zone "variant1.tld" { clone "domain.tld"; }; and you're done. Now obviously the tricky part comes in the interaction with the resolvers. This is all very rough of course, but a CLONE-aware resolver would know what to do when it receives that response. My idea of what it should do is to "internally transpose" the string "variant1" with "domain" so that if an end user asks for "www.variant1.tld" and the resolver receives a CLONE response that says "variant1.tld == domain.tld" it can substitute "domain.tld" for queries, DNSSEC validation, etc.; then return the answers to the end user _with no mention of "domain.tld" whatsoever_. We would probably want some sort of flag to indicate that it was a CLONE response, but if we're actually going to make the two domains "the same" then there cannot be any actual difference in the ANSWER, ADDITIONAL, or AUTHORITY sections. What to do with non-CLONE-aware resolvers is obviously the tricky bit. My vote would be that if the resolver does not understand CLONE that the authoritative server simply sends the requested information as if the resolver had actually asked for "domain." Unless I'm missing something obvious that would work for all purposes except for DNSSEC, but with the root being signed with SHA-2 we've got some software revs coming up to handle DNSSEC anyway. How a resolver signals that it does or does not understand CLONE is left as an exercise for the reader. I should also add that both child and parent should have useful responses to a CLONE qtype, which could be used by interested parties to (sort of) verify that both ends of the delegation are doing what they are supposed to do, assuming once again that they can both be trusted not to forge the responses. 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List-Archive: Ed used the term "equivalence" - and the various thread subject lines seem to infer two distinct alternatives. So may I ask a couple of questions here? Is equivalence from a given POV? a parent, a sibling, from a namespace, what POV is used to evaluate equivalence? in my mind, equivalence equates to multiple instances, with none being "canonical". wrt "cloning" this idea presupposes a canonical form of the zone - then clones are "made"... right? in one case; cloning, its fairly straightforward to have dispute resolution while in the equivalence case, its not nearly so straightforward. So which is it? --bill From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 15 14:14:24 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64CB43A6894; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 14:14:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.039 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.039 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.560, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qQlje3ImPDQR; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 14:14:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B12683A682F; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 14:14:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKfZe-000EGt-Al for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 22:08:54 +0000 Received: from [168.61.5.27] (helo=harry.mail-abuse.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKfZU-000EGP-1g for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 22:08:44 +0000 Received: from sjc-office-nat-214.mail-abuse.org (gateway1.sjc.mail-abuse.org [168.61.5.81]) by harry.mail-abuse.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9879AA9443B; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 22:08:42 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <4B2808EA.8070000@mail-abuse.org> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 14:08:42 -0800 From: Douglas Otis User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.5) Gecko/20091204 Thunderbird/3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Hoffman CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] making one zone/domain act like another References: <202705b0912141345t25f07433oc67e1a0f024b3a7d@mail.gmail.com> <200912142233.nBEMXfuw022129@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <202705b0912141630p675234b1p6c324d2cef1ceeac@mail.gmail.com> <4B26E1E3.2030108@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 12/14/09 6:28 PM, Paul Hoffman wrote: > At 5:09 PM -0800 12/14/09, Doug Otis wrote: >> >> In Hiroshima, there were Japanese developers that wanted different >> ideograms to access same the same website. They considered the >> issue analogous to upper and lower case in ASCII. IMHO, this type >> of issue should be considered analogous to look-alike domains and >> not upper/lower case. To be safe, this might require defensive >> domain registration. Rather than allowing the two ideograms to >> select the same website, it would be safer to wildcard (deprecate) >> one of the ideogram options and have it reference a page that >> explains which ideogram is supported within the TLD. > > Please don't hijack the thread, and please don't tell others who > have studied problems a lot longer than you what their problems are > analogous to. > > For those who are on namedroppers but not IDNAbis: think of the two > FQDNs with a single owner who wants the two names to be synonyms. > ibm.com and ibm.net is a reasonable example. It does not matter how > the two names came into existence; in fact, that is a rathole that > is not relevant to the question. Paul, Multiple NS records appear the best solution to handle semantically or visually similar domain names. From your reaction, this does not meet your expectation. With DNSSEC, it would be difficult to have two different ASCII representations of a domain declared canonically equal, beyond allowing case-insensitivity. Different domains require different zones. When done at the TLD, this requires multiple TLDs. That does not mean there is nothing to be done. The results of any process that attempts to merge two names could be affirmed in a manner similar to that proposed in the TPA-Label scheme. Any domain would be able to authorize alternate domain use within a single DNS transaction. See: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-otis-dkim-tpa-label When done in a major way, this could use an "Alternate Name Authorization Resource Record" (ANA-RR). A CNAME at a special prefix could establish desired aliases for use by other protocols. Either introducing an ANA-RR or simply NXDOMAIN for non-preferred forms of a name is currently supported by DNS. For example, DNS will not resolve "Jon's.vlog.com". There is not an urgent demand for a mechanism to make IBM.COM and IBM.NET equivalent domains. Nevertheless, a specialized label such as _alias.IBM.NET IN CNAME IBM.COM could then be affirmed with an _U3WCVMQTCOY4AFHQJFX4LJFISSUIHZA5.IBM.COM IN ANA-RR which authorizes the IBM.NET references. Alternatively, a TLD could create contracts requiring replicate zones that automatically generate the entire set of desired domain aliases. -Doug From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Tue Dec 15 15:57:26 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 982193A677E for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 15:57:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -77.064 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-77.064 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP=1.398, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_HU=1.35, HOST_EQ_BROADBND=1.118, HOST_EQ_HU=1.245, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iOBMl5jDSC2P for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 15:57:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from catv-80-99-48-92.catv.broadband.hu (catv-80-99-48-92.catv.broadband.hu [80.99.48.92]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 732E83A659A for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 15:57:25 -0800 (PST) From: Russian Brides To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Find a Russian wife here. 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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 15 17:29:07 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0083D3A68A2; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 17:29:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.558 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.558 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_BASE64_BLANKS=0.041, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DQsUAEHnt3TU; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 17:29:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 171373A689C; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 17:29:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKiVK-0007Q2-LJ for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 01:16:38 +0000 Received: from [209.85.210.194] (helo=mail-yx0-f194.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKiVE-0007Pa-8Y for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 01:16:32 +0000 Received: by yxe32 with SMTP id 32so538893yxe.5 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 17:16:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:from:to:cc :references:subject:date:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:x-priority:x-msmail-priority:x-mailer :x-mimeole; bh=S8/8M5h1B4rNBWUo6wsS9JeQJqEefJI1OqRRIkf853E=; b=fvx00hZsH9PANK+gFBprVI1wtxCmkwBcclG0aH68n9675yEVGTXHyDJ4ApKyMPgI0I HQ2+guhT3ta7zp+3NVLbNubD+LVGfA0jFEVZCg+W4GmmNQR/M4L8fxwzyIoH7+bM23Mj WNUo3lM4dae3Axf/kzgn2SCynDXNlVquQzJ+8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:from:to:cc:references:subject:date:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-priority:x-msmail-priority :x-mailer:x-mimeole; b=mbgxjFVSYuSGVE3tyagu45JUrcNWuAhi6cNyv39ZwOIOUtP6bqkfKwycdZsJW5i4E7 SZJKs3x4MNHb3C1Bea2s+Bhgl/5saOqmxwF0sPUqThM323auTes2FdZn0gKf+lST3seW yjS6m3n3rFEez+0iNk1o7KsmYcPfsCPsbkLp8= Received: by 10.150.120.42 with SMTP id s42mr606112ybc.312.1260926190605; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 17:16:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from LENOVO47E041CF ([218.241.109.116]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 7sm189579yxd.26.2009.12.15.17.16.28 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 15 Dec 2009 17:16:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4DEC507A9FBF47D7B17B071C278F9936@LENOVO47E041CF> From: "Health" To: "Eric Brunner-Williams" , "Paul Vixie" Cc: References: <202705b0912141345t25f07433oc67e1a0f024b3a7d@mail.gmail.com> <200912142233.nBEMXfuw022129@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <202705b0912141630p675234b1p6c324d2cef1ceeac@mail.gmail.com> <4B26E1E3.2030108@gmail.com> <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <4B278B93.6090209@abenaki.wabanaki.net> Subject: Re: [dnsext] making one zone/domain act like another Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 09:16:35 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: DQpmcm9tIHRoZSBkaXNjdXNzaW9ucywgdGhlcmUgYXJlIHR3byB3b3JkcyBmb3IgdGhpcyBpc3N1 ZTogZXF1aXZhbGVuY2UsIHZpc3VhbCBzaW1pbGFyaXR5DQoNCmNhc2UgMSwgdW5kZXIgdGhlIHNh bWUgbGFuZ3VhZ2UgZW52aXJvbm1lbnQsIHR3byB3b3JkcyBhcmUgZXF1aXZhbGVuY2UoYWxzbyB2 aXN1YWwgc2ltaWxhcml0eSksIGZvciBleGFtcGxlIGNvbG9yID09IGNvbG91ciBpbiBFbmdsaXNo DQpjYXNlIDIsIHVuZGVyIHRoZSBkaWZmZXJlbnQgbGFuZ3VhZ2UgZW52aXJvbm1lbnQsIHR3byB3 b3JkcyBhcmUgdmlzdWFsIHNpbWlsYXJpdHksIGZvciBleGFtcGxlIGEgY3lyaWxsaWMvTERIIA0K ZXhhbXBsZSAoLtGB0L7QvC8uY29tKQ0KDQpFdmVyeW9uZSBzcGVha3Mgc29tZXRoaW5nIGluIHRo ZSBzYW1lIGxhbmd1YWdlIGVudmlyaW9ubWVudCwgc28gbW9zdCBpbnRlcm5ldCB1c2VycyBwcmVm ZXIgdG8gc29sdmUgdGhlIGNhc2UgMSBhbmQgbWFrZSB0aGUgem9uZSBpZGVudGljYWwgb3IgZXF1 aXZhbGVuY2UuDQoNCmZvciBjYXNlIDIsIHdlIG1heSBvciBtYXkgbm90IHVzZSB0aGUgc29sdXRp b24gdXNlZCBpbiBjYXNlIDEuDQoNCnNvIGNhc2UgMSBhbmQgY2FzZSAyIG1heSByZXF1aXJlIGRp ZmZlcmVudCBzb2x1dGlvbnMuDQoNCg0KWWFvIEppYW5rYW5nDQoNCg0KDQotLS0tLSBPcmlnaW5h bCBNZXNzYWdlIC0tLS0tIA0KRnJvbTogIkVyaWMgQnJ1bm5lci1XaWxsaWFtcyIgPGVid0BhYmVu YWtpLndhYmFuYWtpLm5ldD4NClRvOiAiUGF1bCBWaXhpZSIgPHZpeGllQGlzYy5vcmc+DQpDYzog PG5hbWVkcm9wcGVyc0BvcHMuaWV0Zi5vcmc+DQpTZW50OiBUdWVzZGF5LCBEZWNlbWJlciAxNSwg MjAwOSA5OjEzIFBNDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW2Ruc2V4dF0gbWFraW5nIG9uZSB6b25lL2RvbWFp biBhY3QgbGlrZSBhbm90aGVyDQoNCg0KT24gMTIvMTUvMDkgMTI6MTggQU0sIFBhdWwgVml4aWUg d3JvdGU6DQo+PiBEYXRlOiBNb24sIDE0IERlYyAyMDA5IDIyOjIxOjA0IC0wNTAwDQo+PiBGcm9t OiBBbmRyZXcgU3VsbGl2YW48YWpzQHNoaW5rdXJvLmNvbT4NCj4+DQo+PiAgICAgIC4uLiAgU28s IEkgZXhob3J0IHVzIHRvIHRhY2tsZSB0aGlzIHByb2JsZW0uDQo+DQo+IG9rLiAgaGVyZSdzIHRo ZSBmaXZlIHByb3Bvc2FscyBvbiB0aGUgdGFibGUsIGFuZCBhIHByZWZlcmVuY2Ugc2hvd24uDQou Li4NCj4gMy4gbXVsdGlwbGUgTlMnczoNCj4NCj4gcG9saXRpY2FsIG1pbmVmaWVsZCBzaW5jZSBp dCB3b3VsZCBiZSAidHdvIFRMRCdzIi4gIHRoZSBwb2xpY3kgcGVvcGxlDQo+IHdvdWxkIGxvdmUg dXMgYmV0dGVyIGlmIHdlIGRpZG4ndCBtYWtlIHRoZW0gY29tZSB1cCB3aXRoIGEgbmV3IGNvdW50 aW5nDQo+IHN5c3RlbSBmb3IgImhvdyBtYW55IFRMRCdzIGRvZXMgJHJlZ2lzdHJ5IGhhdmU/IiAg YnV0IHRlY2huaWNhbGx5IGl0DQo+IHdvdWxkIGZpdCBwcmV0dHkgd2VsbCwgb25lIG1lcmVseSBl eHBlY3RzIHRoYXQgdGhlIGJlbG93LXRoZS1kZWxlZ2F0aW9uDQo+IHNlcnZlcnMgd291bGQgbG9h ZCB0aGUgc2FtZSBjb250ZW50IGluIHR3byB6b25lcywgb3IgdGhhdCBpbXBsZW1lbnRvcnMNCj4g d291bGQgY29tZSB1cCB3aXRoIGFuIGFsaWFzaW5nIGZ1bmN0aW9uIHRoYXQgZGlkIG5vdCByZXF1 aXJlIHdpcmUgY2hhbmdlcy4NCg0KDQpQYXVsLA0KDQpUaGVyZSBhcmUgYSBjb3VwbGUgb2YgdXNl IGNhc2VzIEknbSBhd2FyZSBvZjoNCg0KbyBhIHZhcmlhbnQgY2hhcmFjdGVyIHBhaXIgaW4gc29t ZSBUTEQgYXBwbGljYXRpb25zLCBzdWNoIGFzICJtdW1ibGUiIA0KaW4gQXJhYmljIGFuZCBGYXJz aSwgd2hlcmUgdGhlIGZpbmFsIGNoYXJhY3RlciAibSIgaXMsIG9yIGlzbid0IA0KZG90dGVkLCBh bmQgdGhlIGRvdCBpc24ndCBkaXNwbGF5ZWQgaW4gdGhlIHRlcm1pbmFsIGZvcm0gb2YgdGhlIGRv dHRlZCANCmNoYXJhY3Rlci4gQWRkIHRvIHRoaXMgdGhlIHdlbGwta25vd24gU0MvVEMgY2FzZS4N Cg0KbyB0d28gdmlzdWFsbHkgZGlzdGluZ3Vpc2hhYmxlIHN0cmluZ3MsIHN1Y2ggYXMgImR1Y2sg c291cCIgYW5kICLpuK3msaQiIA0KKHnEgSB0xIFuZyksIHdoZXJlIHNvbWUgYXNzb2NpYXRpb24s IG1lYW5pbmcsIHNvdW5kLCBjb2xvciBvbiBUdWVzZGF5LCANCmhhcyBjYXVzZWQgb25lIGFwcGxp Y2FudCB0byBhcHBseSBmb3IgYm90aCBzdHJpbmdzLCBhZ2FpbiwgZm9yIGEgVExELg0KDQpvIHR3 byBhcmJpdHJhcnkgZ3JhcGhzLCBzdWNoIGFzICJwb2xrYS1kb3RzIiBhbmQgInBvbGthLWRvdHMu c3RyaXBlcyIsIA0Kd2hlcmUgYWdhaW4sIHNvbWUgYXNzb2NpYXRpb24sIGhhcyBjYXVzZWQgb25l IG9wZXJhdG9yIHRvIGNyZWF0ZSBhIA0KY29ycmVzcG9uZGluZyBuYW1lIHNwYWNlLCB3aGljaCBt YXkgYmUgYSBzcGFyc2Ugc2V0IG9mIGNvcnJlc3BvbmRlbmNlcy4NCg0KU29tZSBub24tQ0pLIGV4 YW1wbGVzIHRoYXQganVzdCBkcm9wcGVkIGludG8gbXkgaW5ib3g6DQoiLi4uIGZyb20gTERIL2V4 dGVuZGVkIEFTQ0lJICguYWVyby8uw6ZybyksIG9yIGV2ZW4gYSBjeXJpbGxpYy9MREggDQpleGFt cGxlICgu0YHQvtC8Ly5jb20pIC4uLiINCg0KU28sIGEgcGx1cmFsaXR5IG9mIGxhYmVscywgc2lu Z2xlIG9wZXJhdG9yLCBhbmQgYSBwbHVyYWxpdHkgb2YgbGFiZWxzLCANCmNvb3BlcmF0aW5nIG9w ZXJhdG9ycywgd2hlcmUgc29tZSBvZiB0aGUgcGx1cmFsaXR5IGlzIHRvIGNyZWF0ZSANCiJiZW5l ZmljaWFsIHNhbWVuZXNzIiAob3IgcHJldmVudCAzcmQtcGFydHkgZGlmZmVyZW5jZSB3aXRoaW4g c29tZSANCmV4cGVjdGF0aW9uIG9mIHNhbWVuZXNzLCBvciBzaW1wbHkgdGhlIGFic2VuY2Ugb2Yg c29tZSBpbnN0YW5jZSBvZiB0aGUgDQpkZXNpcmVkIHBsdXJhbGl0eSksIGFuZCBzb21lIG9mIHRo ZSBwbHVyYWxpdHkgaXMgY3JlYXRlICJiZW5lZmljaWFsIA0KZGlmZmVyZW5jZSIsIHdpdGhpbiBz b21lIGV4cGVjdGF0aW9uIG9mIGRpZmZlcmVuY2UsIHdpdGggdGhlIHNhbWUgDQozcmQtcGFydHkg YW5kIGFic2VuY2Ugbm9uLWdvYWxzLg0KDQpNeSBwb2ludCBpcyB0aGF0IHRoZSBwb2xpY3kgZXhw ZWN0YXRpb24geW91IG9mZmVyIG1heSBub3QgZml0IHRoZSB1c2UgDQpjYXNlcyBJJ20gYXdhcmUg b2YuIFRoZSAicG9saXRpY2FsIG1pbmVmaWVsZCIgb2YgInR3byBUTERzIiBtYXkgbm90IGJlIA0K YSBwb2xpY3kgbm9uLXJlcXVpcmVtZW50LiBUaGlzIGlzIG5vdCBhIHNldHRsZWQgaXNzdWUgYW5k IGlzIHRoZSANCnN1YmplY3Qgb2YgcHJlc2VudCBuZWdvdGlhdGlvbi4NCg0KDQpNeSB0d28gYmVh ZHMgd29ydGgsDQpFcmljDQoNCg== From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Tue Dec 15 23:38:52 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D28273A6934 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 23:38:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -81.648 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-81.648 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_80=2, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_HU=1.35, HOST_EQ_HU=1.245, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VZWzNHIs07XB for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 23:38:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from dv5vw7aw5d.adsl.datanet.hu (dv5vw7aw5d.adsl.datanet.hu [195.56.94.240]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 844023A6808 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 23:38:51 -0800 (PST) From: Russian Brides To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Russian dating site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091216073851.844023A6808@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 23:38:51 -0800 (PST) Welcome
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Tue Dec 15 23:41:48 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F59E3A659C for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 23:41:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -69.791 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-69.791 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FB_NUMYO2=10.357, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_HU=1.35, HOST_EQ_HU=1.245, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1rSqKNd7UZYY for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 23:41:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from dv5vw7aw5d.adsl.datanet.hu (dv5vw7aw5d.adsl.datanet.hu [195.56.94.240]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B3C53A67AE for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 23:41:46 -0800 (PST) From: Russian Brides To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: The most beautiful Russian women are available here. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091216074147.2B3C53A67AE@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 23:41:46 -0800 (PST) Welcome
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Dec 16 02:29:36 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAB543A69AA; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 02:29:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.481 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.481 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=3.118, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ySVROU5znwrm; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 02:29:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B88213A6941; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 02:29:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKqsl-000BHi-QY for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:13:23 +0000 Received: from [193.227.124.2] (helo=mx01.bfk.de) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKqsf-000BGc-K8 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:13:17 +0000 Received: from mx00.int.bfk.de ([10.119.110.2]) by mx01.bfk.de with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) id 1NKqsa-0005gi-7L; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 11:13:12 +0100 Received: by bfk.de with local id 1NKqsa-0002Rq-GA; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:13:12 +0000 To: Paul Vixie Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] making one zone/domain act like another References: <202705b0912141345t25f07433oc67e1a0f024b3a7d@mail.gmail.com> <200912142233.nBEMXfuw022129@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <202705b0912141630p675234b1p6c324d2cef1ceeac@mail.gmail.com> <4B26E1E3.2030108@gmail.com> <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> From: Florian Weimer Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:13:12 +0000 In-Reply-To: <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> (Paul Vixie's message of "Tue\, 15 Dec 2009 05\:18\:49 +0000") Message-ID: <82aaxjjkg7.fsf@mid.bfk.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: * Paul Vixie: > of these, i prefer #4. no wire changes, only requires upgrades to the > delegating zone's servers, and has no political/policy costs. Except that the names are not equivalent. Any CNAME-based solution currently has that problem because section 10.3 of RFC 2181 requires that MX and NS targets are canonical. There used to be SMTP implementations which could be configured to refuse delivery to non-canonical MX hosts. So you'd need to avoid putting an alternative encoding of a domain name in the RR data part. (The RFC 1123/2181 requirement was also picked up by the SRV RR, and probably others.) I think it is a bit hard to explain that you can send mail to , but you cannot put mx.xn-1234.example into the zone file (assuming that xn-1234 is not the canonical encoding). But maybe this is good enough. --=20 Florian Weimer BFK edv-consulting GmbH http://www.bfk.de/ Kriegsstra=DFe 100 tel: +49-721-96201-1 D-76133 Karlsruhe fax: +49-721-96201-99 From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Dec 16 04:11:09 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18CDD3A69C1; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 04:11:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u1I+LPhIora9; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 04:11:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2D023A698F; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 04:11:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKsYv-000MqX-EW for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 12:01:01 +0000 Received: from [2001:4900:1:392:213:20ff:fe1b:3bfe] (helo=monster.hopcount.ca) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKsYp-000Mpv-HK for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 12:00:55 +0000 Received: from [86.128.83.198] (helo=[192.168.0.74]) by monster.hopcount.ca with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKsYn-000IQ1-An; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 12:00:54 +0000 Subject: Re: [dnsext] cloning zones Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Joe Abley In-Reply-To: <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 12:00:51 +0000 Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4BAAB7D2-2084-4E76-8F96-1E8027F755E1@hopcount.ca> References: <200912142233.nBEMXfuw022129@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <202705b0912141630p675234b1p6c324d2cef1ceeac@mail.gmail.com> <4B26E1E3.2030108@gmail.com> <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> To: Andrew Sullivan X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 86.128.83.198 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jabley@hopcount.ca X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on monster.hopcount.ca); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 2009-12-15, at 16:06, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > If I delegate color.example.org and colour.example.org to the same > delegee, how can I be certain that color.example.org and > colour.example.org _really are_ the same? =20 A clarifying question from an IDNA-ignorant thread-lurker. I am just = trying to understand the problem statement. Suppose I am a person that needs to use and see and understand "colour" = rather than "color". I send a query "MAGENTA.COLOUR.EXAMPLE.ORG IN MX?" and get the answer = MAGENTA.COLOUR.EXAMPLE.ORG 3600 IN MX PALETTE.COLOUR.EXAMPLE.ORG". Suppose instead I am a person of "color". I send the query = "MAGENTA.COLOR.EXAMPLE.ORG IN MX?". (a) Which answer should I expect? = (b) Which answers are valid? MAGENTA.COLOR.EXAMPLE.ORG 3600 IN MX PALETTE.COLOR.EXAMPLE.ORG MAGENTA.COLOR.EXAMPLE.ORG 3600 IN MX PALETTE.COLOUR.EXAMPLE.ORG MAGENTA.COLOUR.EXAMPLE.ORG 3600 IN MX PALETTE.COLOR.EXAMPLE.ORG MAGENTA.COLOUR.EXAMPLE.ORG 3600 IN MX PALETTE.COLOUR.EXAMPLE.ORG In other words, are we just providing equivalence in the namespace for = the purpose of queries, or are we also doing so for answers? Joe From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Dec 16 04:27:59 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14A0C3A694F; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 04:27:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.722 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.722 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.877, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P5YnPnZDs6ox; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 04:27:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45CBF3A6941; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 04:27:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKstx-000Poc-3d for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 12:22:45 +0000 Received: from [198.32.6.68] (helo=vacation.karoshi.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKstr-000Pnx-ED for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 12:22:39 +0000 Received: from karoshi.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by vacation.karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id nBGCLZCK014952; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 12:21:35 GMT Received: (from bmanning@localhost) by karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id nBGCLZgQ014951; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 12:21:35 GMT Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 12:21:35 +0000 From: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com To: Joe Abley Cc: Andrew Sullivan , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] cloning zones Message-ID: <20091216122135.GA14923@vacation.karoshi.com.> References: <202705b0912141630p675234b1p6c324d2cef1ceeac@mail.gmail.com> <4B26E1E3.2030108@gmail.com> <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <4BAAB7D2-2084-4E76-8F96-1E8027F755E1@hopcount.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4BAAB7D2-2084-4E76-8F96-1E8027F755E1@hopcount.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 12:00:51PM +0000, Joe Abley wrote: > > On 2009-12-15, at 16:06, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > > > If I delegate color.example.org and colour.example.org to the same > > delegee, how can I be certain that color.example.org and > > colour.example.org _really are_ the same? > > A clarifying question from an IDNA-ignorant thread-lurker. I am just trying to understand the problem statement. > > Suppose I am a person that needs to use and see and understand "colour" rather than "color". > > I send a query "MAGENTA.COLOUR.EXAMPLE.ORG IN MX?" and get the answer MAGENTA.COLOUR.EXAMPLE.ORG 3600 IN MX PALETTE.COLOUR.EXAMPLE.ORG". > > Suppose instead I am a person of "color". I send the query "MAGENTA.COLOR.EXAMPLE.ORG IN MX?". (a) Which answer should I expect? (b) Which answers are valid? > > MAGENTA.COLOR.EXAMPLE.ORG 3600 IN MX PALETTE.COLOR.EXAMPLE.ORG > MAGENTA.COLOR.EXAMPLE.ORG 3600 IN MX PALETTE.COLOUR.EXAMPLE.ORG > MAGENTA.COLOUR.EXAMPLE.ORG 3600 IN MX PALETTE.COLOR.EXAMPLE.ORG > MAGENTA.COLOUR.EXAMPLE.ORG 3600 IN MX PALETTE.COLOUR.EXAMPLE.ORG > > In other words, are we just providing equivalence in the namespace for the purpose of queries, or are we also doing so for answers? > > > Joe > > if, as Ed suggests, we are looking at the mathmatical definition of equivalence, then I would suggest that we would need equivalence for queries and responses. imho of course. --bill From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Wed Dec 16 04:57:06 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2677D3A67EA for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 04:57:06 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: <1zbuRQcmE-6F> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Official Site [...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -60.432 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-60.432 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_EQ_RU=0.595, HOST_EQ_RU=0.875, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MANGLED_OFF=2.3, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_SBL=20, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1zbuRQcmE-6F for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 04:57:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from shpd-92-101-169-83.vologda.ru (shpd-92-101-169-83.vologda.ru [92.101.169.83]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id DEDB83A682A for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 04:57:04 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Official Site To: Subject: Dear dnsext-archive@ietf.org 88% 0FF on PFIZER ! 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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Dec 16 05:12:00 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1D8A3A67E9; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 05:11:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.572 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.572 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.027, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A3z2GDH5aiYb; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 05:11:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92E5A3A63C9; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 05:11:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKtXE-0004rg-Lm for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:03:20 +0000 Received: from [65.99.1.130] (helo=abenaki.wabanaki.net) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKtX8-0004qz-GU for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:03:14 +0000 Received: from limpet.local (cpe-67-241-43-7.twcny.res.rr.com [67.241.43.7]) by abenaki.wabanaki.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBGCpSm1089915; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 07:51:28 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ebw@abenaki.wabanaki.net) Message-ID: <4B28DA89.6070104@abenaki.wabanaki.net> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:03:05 -0500 From: Eric Brunner-Williams User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9.1.5) Gecko/20091204 Thunderbird/3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com CC: Joe Abley , Andrew Sullivan , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] cloning zones References: <202705b0912141630p675234b1p6c324d2cef1ceeac@mail.gmail.com> <4B26E1E3.2030108@gmail.com> <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <4BAAB7D2-2084-4E76-8F96-1E8027F755E1@hopcount.ca> <20091216122135.GA14923@vacation.karoshi.com.> In-Reply-To: <20091216122135.GA14923@vacation.karoshi.com.> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: +1 on equivalence. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Dec 16 06:17:07 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 430453A681C; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 06:17:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.824 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.824 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.776, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oy0oguSbz1ID; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 06:17:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 679C03A68AB; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 06:17:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKuYR-000DFd-8m for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 14:08:39 +0000 Received: from [193.1.169.37] (helo=cali.ucd.ie) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKuYL-000DF5-80 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 14:08:33 +0000 Received: from conversion-daemon.cali.ucd.ie by cali.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.03 (built Sep 22 2005)) id <0KUR00K010866800@cali.ucd.ie> (original mail from Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie) for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 14:08:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.0.1.177] (bark.no8.be [83.141.81.52]) by cali.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.03 (built Sep 22 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0KUR0034M0M6BJ00@cali.ucd.ie>; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 14:08:30 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 14:08:30 +0000 From: Niall O'Reilly Subject: Re: [dnsext] making one zone/domain act like another In-reply-to: <82aaxjjkg7.fsf@mid.bfk.de> To: Florian Weimer Cc: Paul Vixie , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Message-id: <4B28E9DE.9060802@ucd.ie> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <202705b0912141345t25f07433oc67e1a0f024b3a7d@mail.gmail.com> <200912142233.nBEMXfuw022129@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <202705b0912141630p675234b1p6c324d2cef1ceeac@mail.gmail.com> <4B26E1E3.2030108@gmail.com> <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <82aaxjjkg7.fsf@mid.bfk.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Florian Weimer wrote, in the context of allowing CNAME and DNAME together: > So you'd need to avoid putting an alternative encoding of a domain > name in the RR data part. (The RFC 1123/2181 requirement was also > picked up by the SRV RR, and probably others.) > > I think it is a bit hard to explain that you can send mail to > , but you cannot put mx.xn-1234.example into > the zone file (assuming that xn-1234 is not the canonical encoding). > But maybe this is good enough. I expect that it would be. Besides, with only one zone to maintain, the (operational) rules for what is allowed on the RHS of any RR are easy to write. VBR, Niall O'Reilly From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Dec 16 06:46:05 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BD333A6801; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 06:46:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.248 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.248 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.351, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nx5faZ3PzTlC; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 06:46:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D1D63A67B3; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 06:46:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKv1E-000GeL-Rp for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 14:38:24 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKv18-000Gdh-6o for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 14:38:18 +0000 Received: from valholl.ogud.com (nyttbox.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.4]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBGEb5hW023611; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 09:37:05 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ogud@ogud.com) Message-Id: <200912161437.nBGEb5hW023611@stora.ogud.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 09:32:08 -0500 To: Ralph Droms From: Olafur Gudmundsson Subject: [dnsext] Advancement statement for dnsext-dnssec-gost-06 Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, IESG Secretary , Jari Arkko Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Ralph, Here is a document from DNSEXT. Please start an IETF LC as soon as feasible. Document: draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-gost-06.txt Statement: (1.a) Who is the Document Shepherd for this document? Has the Document Shepherd personally reviewed this version of the document and, in particular, does he or she believe this version is ready for forwarding to the IESG for publication? Olafur Gudmundsson DNSEXT co-chair. This version has addressed all issues raised in the working group last call and the document is ready for publication. (1.b) Has the document had adequate review both from key WG members and from key non-WG members? Does the Document Shepherd have any concerns about the depth or breadth of the reviews that have been performed? Yes it has. No concerns about quality of review. (1.c) Does the Document Shepherd have concerns that the document needs more review from a particular or broader perspective, e.g., security, operational complexity, someone familiar with AAA, internationalization, or XML? This document should be reviewed by the security area. (1.d) Does the Document Shepherd have any specific concerns or issues with this document that the Responsible Area Director and/or the IESG should be aware of? For example, perhaps he or she is uncomfortable with certain parts of the document, or has concerns whether there really is a need for it. In any event, if the WG has discussed those issues and has indicated that it still wishes to advance the document, detail those concerns here. Has an IPR disclosure related to this document been filed? If so, please include a reference to the disclosure and summarize the WG discussion and conclusion on this issue. There was some push back as to if this document should be published on standards track or informational. This document is making registrations in registries that require Standards action, thus only Standards track documents can perform these registrations. The working group is comfortable with Standards track. (1.e) How solid is the WG consensus behind this document? Does it represent the strong concurrence of a few individuals, with others being silent, or does the WG as a whole understand and agree with it? This is always hard to judge, the core members of the working group seem to understand the issues and discussing this document brought in new participants. My understanding is that the average WG members sees no problem or issue in this becoming an RFC. (1.f) Has anyone threatened an appeal or otherwise indicated extreme discontent? If so, please summarize the areas of conflict in separate email messages to the Responsible Area Director. (It should be in a separate email because this questionnaire is entered into the ID Tracker.) No, (1.g) Has the Document Shepherd personally verified that the document satisfies all ID nits? (See http://www.ietf.org/ID-Checklist.html and http://tools.ietf.org/tools/idnits/.) Boilerplate checks are not enough; this check needs to be thorough. Has the document met all formal review criteria it needs to, such as the MIB Doctor, media type, and URI type reviews? If the document does not already indicate its intended status at the top of the first page, please indicate the intended status here. Yes, I have checked the document, no nits. (1.h) Has the document split its references into normative and informative? Are there normative references to documents that are not ready for advancement or are otherwise in an unclear state? If such normative references exist, what is the strategy for their completion? Are there normative references that are downward references, as described in [RFC3967]? If so, list these downward references to support the Area Director in the Last Call procedure for them [RFC3967]. Yes references are split. Normative references 4357 is informational but that RFC is in http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/DownrefRegistry thus IMHO this is OK. (1.i) Has the Document Shepherd verified that the document's IANA Considerations section exists and is consistent with the body of the document? If the document specifies protocol extensions, are reservations requested in appropriate IANA registries? Are the IANA registries clearly identified? If the document creates a new registry, does it define the proposed initial contents of the registry and an allocation procedure for future registrations? Does it suggest a reasonable name for the new registry? See [RFC2434]. If the document describes an Expert Review process, has the Document Shepherd conferred with the Responsible Area Director so that the IESG can appoint the needed Expert during IESG Evaluation? The document IANA actions are clearly identified. (1.j) Has the Document Shepherd verified that sections of the document that are written in a formal language, such as XML code, BNF rules, MIB definitions, etc., validate correctly in an automated checker? YES (1.k) The IESG approval announcement includes a Document Announcement Write-Up. Please provide such a Document Announcement Write-Up. Recent examples can be found in the "Action" announcements for approved documents. The approval announcement contains the following sections: Technical Summary Relevant content can frequently be found in the abstract and/or introduction of the document. If not, this may be an indication that there are deficiencies in the abstract or introduction. This document defines the use of new digital signature algorithm, the specifications of this algorithm was originally published in Russian but an English translation is in the RFC editors queue. The document describes how to publish a public key in a DNSKEY record, how to convert the public key into a construct used by crypto libraries, and how to generate digital signature and publish it in a RRSIG. The documents further describes how to publish an authorizing DS record for a DNSKEY using a corresponding digest algorithms. Working Group Summary Was there anything in the WG process that is worth noting? For example, was there controversy about particular points or were there decisions where the consensus was particularly rough? The consensus for this document is strong. Document Quality Are there existing implementations of the protocol? Have a significant number of vendors indicated their plan to implement the specification? Are there any reviewers that merit special mention as having done a thorough review, e.g., one that resulted in important changes or a conclusion that the document had no substantive issues? If there was a MIB Doctor, Media Type, or other Expert Review, what was its course (briefly)? In the case of a Media Type Review, on what date was the request posted? This document has been reported by few DNS implementors to be clear enough to be implementable. There have been changes in the wire format between the different versions, using random testing codes for IANA requested values. This document is similar in many respects to RFC5702 and RFC 4509 as the DNS inter operability issues are identical. The only difference is the underlying technologies, RSA/SHA2 vs GOST R 34.10-2001/GOST R 34.11-94. Personnel Who is the Document Shepherd for this document? Who is the Responsible Area Director? If the document requires IANA experts(s), insert 'The IANA Expert(s) for the registries in this document are .' Document Shepherd is: Olafur Gudmundsson AD: Ralph Droms Olafur and Andrew From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Dec 16 06:53:16 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 684453A68BD; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 06:53:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.017 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.017 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.582, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dtCQsKJs4c61; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 06:53:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BD133A67B3; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 06:53:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKv9M-000HVj-BM for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 14:46:48 +0000 Received: from [193.1.169.34] (helo=dakota.ucd.ie) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKv9G-000HV8-C5 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 14:46:42 +0000 Received: from conversion-daemon.dakota.ucd.ie by dakota.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-2.05 (built Apr 28 2005)) id <0KUR00C0120LAS00@dakota.ucd.ie> (original mail from Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie) for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 14:46:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.0.1.177] (bark.no8.be [83.141.81.52]) by dakota.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-2.05 (built Apr 28 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0KUR00M4C2DSS500@dakota.ucd.ie>; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 14:46:40 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 14:46:40 +0000 From: Niall O'Reilly Subject: Re: [dnsext] cloning zones In-reply-to: <5D65FA09-336E-4BB9-A563-83C3717C94DC@rfc1035.com> To: Jim Reid Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, Vaggelis Segredakis Message-id: <4B28F2D0.1040200@ucd.ie> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <200912142233.nBEMXfuw022129@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <202705b0912141630p675234b1p6c324d2cef1ceeac@mail.gmail.com> <4B26E1E3.2030108@gmail.com> <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <5D65FA09-336E-4BB9-A563-83C3717C94DC@rfc1035.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 15 Dec 2009 at 19:38, Jim Reid wrote: > On 15 Dec 2009, at 16:06, Andrew Sullivan wrote: >> Now our problem is that we're not actually solving the use case. >> We're saying, "You, zone person, solve this." > > Yup: works for me.... :-) In this case, that is The Right Thing to do IMO. > > It's not clear that the use case is compelling enough to be a real > problem. That's not how I see it, Jim, but (what I see as) your underlying point is significant. It's pretty clear that a real problem is involved. What's not clear to me is whether this problem is better solved (for some definition of "better" 8-P ) by the "zone person" or in the protocol. It's seems to me that, for clarification, the "cost" on either side of this provisioning-versus-protocol trade-off needs to be exposed. To this end, I have two questions, each apparently involving a wire-impact-free solution. To the zone persons: What makes parallel delegation not an acceptable solution for you? To the protocol persons: what breaks if paired CNAME and DNAME are allowed and systematically used for pseudo-delegation of any variant encoding(s) in parallel with normal delegation of the canonically encoded zone? ATB, Niall O'Reilly From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Dec 16 07:45:09 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 261473A69C6; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 07:45:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.225 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.225 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.374, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hd0QDmcl8NuO; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 07:45:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E9EB3A69C2; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 07:45:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKvwf-000N8G-Kl for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 15:37:45 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKvwZ-000N7g-MB for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 15:37:40 +0000 Received: from [10.31.200.254] (ns.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.6]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBGFb8N2024020; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:37:09 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20091216122135.GA14923@vacation.karoshi.com.> References: <202705b0912141630p675234b1p6c324d2cef1ceeac@mail.gmail.com> <4B26E1E3.2030108@gmail.com> <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <4BAAB7D2-2084-4E76-8F96-1E8027F755E1@hopcount.ca> <20091216122135.GA14923@vacation.karoshi.com.> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:16:52 -0500 To: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com From: Edward Lewis Subject: Re: [dnsext] cloning zones Cc: Joe Abley , Andrew Sullivan , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: At 12:21 +0000 12/16/09, bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com wrote: >On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 12:00:51PM +0000, Joe Abley wrote: >> In other words, are we just providing equivalence in the namespace for >> the purpose of queries, or are we also doing so for answers? > if, as Ed suggests, we are looking at the mathmatical definition > of equivalence, then I would suggest that we would need equivalence > for queries and responses. When I was learning DNS and writing the early DNSSEC code, the following little sidebar set the standard for what is "correctness" in a response. Let's say Joe is a system admin in a large organization. He configures a new server to be at 192.0.2.213. He walks down to Bill's office, the guy who runs the DNS servers and says the new host is on 192.0.2.218 - an obvious error. When Bill enters this into the DNS and then signs it with DNSSEC, the result is that the 218 address is signed (source authenticity, integrity and all that). What won't happen inside the DNS is a correction when connects fail to be made to 218. Joe has to be alerted that the address is wrong, he will go to Bill and request the change. (Even if Bill hears there is a problem first, he'd call Joe to get the correct address.) The moral is that correctness of any response within the DNS is limited to the correctness of what is entered into the DNS. DNSSEC (or any other checks) won't overcome this. So, looking at the example (Andrew/Joe/Bill), the DNS itself knows of no special relationship between color and colour. The special relationship is established external to the DNS. The DNS is told to make the two "be equivalent." Outside the DNS space, there is talk that I would interpret as "we want these two zones to be equivalent." Inside the DNS space, we can craft a mechanism or technique to make two domains be equivalent. Of course, first we need to the equivalence function. For the outside of the DNS space, users of DNS want to make sure they get what they want. If the equivalence function is not what they have in mind, then nothing will be successful (like opening a connection to 218 when the host is at 213). For the inside of the DNS space discussions, the equivalence function will be what determines what technique or mechanism provides the desired outcome. That is why I am calling for the definition of equivalence. To the inside of DNS, it's not that important whether you want these examples to be equivalent or not: (use case[0]) (audible) our-eyes.tld. and hour-eyes.tld. (writing) . and . (visual) (the example of com in Cyrillic and ASCII) (dialect) color.us. and colour.co.uk. (slang) take-out-food.us. and take-away-food.sg. (biz relation) moms-spring-water.org. & subsidiary34.major-beverage-corp.com. [0] - I probably missed some reasons. That choice is policy from the outside of the DNS. The inside of DNS just has to figure out what the diff is between queries relating to the two domains that are supposed to be "equivalent." (Outside - the non-technical components of the protocol; inside - the network traffic on port 53 plus the software algorithms in the servers and other elements.) -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis NeuStar You can leave a voice message at +1-571-434-5468 As with IPv6, the problem with the deployment of frictionless surfaces is that they're not getting traction. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Dec 16 07:47:04 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1DA63A688B; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 07:47:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.407 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.407 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.192, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TYDXLSb3WjSp; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 07:47:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A2D63A6863; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 07:47:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKvwS-000N6m-0X for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 15:37:32 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKvwM-000N5s-8h for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 15:37:26 +0000 Received: from [10.31.200.254] (ns.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.6]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBGFb8N4024020; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:37:13 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4B28F2D0.1040200@ucd.ie> References: <200912142233.nBEMXfuw022129@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <202705b0912141630p675234b1p6c324d2cef1ceeac@mail.gmail.com> <4B26E1E3.2030108@gmail.com> <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <5D65FA09-336E-4BB9-A563-83C3717C94DC@rfc1035.com> <4B28F2D0.1040200@ucd.ie> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:25:15 -0500 To: "Niall O'Reilly" From: Edward Lewis Subject: Re: [dnsext] cloning zones Cc: Jim Reid , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, Vaggelis Segredakis Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: At 14:46 +0000 12/16/09, Niall O'Reilly wrote: > To the zone persons: > What makes parallel delegation not an acceptable solution > for you? This appears in a rant I wrote yesterday. 1) Extra resources to maintain full copies of zones on-line The marginal cost of answering a response increases if I need more machines, memory, license, power, etc. to handle the same query load. 2) Extra cryptographic work load to maintain DNSSEC Let's say 5 M signatures do a zone, and just 6 do the "pointer" to it. If I need to have two full copies, that means I go from 5,000,006 to 10,000,000 signatures to manage. 3) Having to ensure no cruft builds up the separate copies In an age of large, high churn zones, deltas are used. Once a wrong record gets in one place, it will stay there until discovered. > To the protocol persons: > what breaks if paired CNAME and DNAME are allowed and > systematically used for pseudo-delegation of any variant > encoding(s) in parallel with normal delegation of the > canonically encoded zone? I will listen to other's responses to this, I have some in mind, but haven't been thinking as much about this. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis NeuStar You can leave a voice message at +1-571-434-5468 As with IPv6, the problem with the deployment of frictionless surfaces is that they're not getting traction. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Dec 16 08:05:17 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D0AD3A69C7; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:05:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iNT8uWdQspBp; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:05:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E77B3A691A; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:05:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKwIr-000PVc-5w for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 16:00:41 +0000 Received: from [195.54.233.70] (helo=hutch.rfc1035.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NKwIl-000PUu-96 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 16:00:35 +0000 Received: from gromit.rfc1035.com (gromit.rfc1035.com [195.54.233.69]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jim) by hutch.rfc1035.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6CC731542837; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 16:00:31 +0000 (GMT) Cc: namedroppers WG Message-Id: From: Jim Reid To: Edward Lewis In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Subject: Re: [dnsext] cloning zones Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 16:00:30 +0000 References: <200912142233.nBEMXfuw022129@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <202705b0912141630p675234b1p6c324d2cef1ceeac@mail.gmail.com> <4B26E1E3.2030108@gmail.com> <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <5D65FA09-336E-4BB9-A563-83C3717C94DC@rfc1035.com> <4B28F2D0.1040200@ucd.ie> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 16 Dec 2009, at 15:25, Edward Lewis wrote: > 1) Extra resources to maintain full copies of zones on-line > > The marginal cost of answering a response increases if I need more > machines, memory, license, power, etc. to handle the same query > load. True. But is that marginal extra cost significant? And if so, does saving that extra cost justify more complexity and probably much greater costs for everyone else? It's all very well to consider the overheads on those publishing DNS data. But that should be traded off against the extra overheads for those reading (and validating?) that data, particularly for operating and troubleshooting resolvers. > 2) Extra cryptographic work load to maintain DNSSEC > > Let's say 5 M signatures do a zone, and just 6 do the "pointer" to > it. > If I need to have two full copies, that means I go from 5,000,006 to > 10,000,000 signatures to manage. Computers are good at repetitive tasks. :-) Presumably the "just 6" signatures refers to some sort of signature over a DNAME for a TLD. But what would that actually mean in practice for validation? Suppose foo is a DNAME for the signed bar TLD. How will my resolver validate www.ed.foo when there's no ZSK/KSK for .foo and the chain of trust goes through .bar? Is that likely to create unwanted surprises for the resolver or application or end user? And what will be the impact on signing/validation for a synthesised CNAME? > 3) Having to ensure no cruft builds up the separate copies > > In an age of large, high churn zones, deltas are used. Once a > wrong record gets in one place, it will stay there until discovered. Cruft and entropy doesn't go away when there's just one zone. Besides, when there's cruft in the back-end registry database, it will find its way into the zone file. So when the zone is cloned, the same cruft gets cloned too. 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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Dec 17 01:15:00 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 282193A694C; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 01:15:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.787 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.787 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.454, BAYES_50=0.001, GB_I_LETTER=-2, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_URI_EQUALS=1.666, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AjEiuANDPp8u; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 01:14:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEBEA3A6846; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 01:14:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLCHN-000KVC-J4 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 09:04:13 +0000 Received: from [139.91.1.2] (helo=mailgate.ics.forth.gr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLCHH-000KUo-1f for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 09:04:07 +0000 X-DNSBL-MILTER: Passed Received: from webmail.ics.forth.gr (sphinx.ics.forth.gr [139.91.1.4]) by mailgate.ics.forth.gr (8.14.3/ICS-FORTH/V10-1.5-GATE) with ESMTP id nBH93wQ4017360; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 11:03:58 +0200 (EET) Received: from Thanatosnew ([139.91.88.160]) (authenticated bits=0) by webmail.ics.forth.gr (8.12.9//ICS-FORTH/V10.1.0C-EXTNULL-PLUS-SASL) with ESMTP id nBH93lqt009558; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 11:03:53 +0200 (EET) From: "Vaggelis Segredakis" To: "'Edward Lewis'" , Cc: "'Joe Abley'" , "'Andrew Sullivan'" , , "'Sotiris Panaretou'" , =?iso-8859-7?B?J8Pp/vHj7/Igyu/r9eLc8ic=?= References: <202705b0912141630p675234b1p6c324d2cef1ceeac@mail.gmail.com> <4B26E1E3.2030108@gmail.com> <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <4BAAB7D2-2084-4E76-8F96-1E8027F755E1@hopcount.ca> <20091216122135.GA14923@vacation.karoshi.com.> Subject: RE: [dnsext] cloning zones Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 11:03:42 +0200 Message-ID: <18821656DEAD41D88B07153DB6DAF657@ics.forth.gr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Thread-Index: Acp+aPs5A2EhDdsUQHOnwCVXjqqj/wAi2Q4Q In-Reply-To: X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 4B29F3FE.000 on mailgate : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-ICS-JCHK-SCL: Ham Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Dear Edward, Speaking as an "outside of DNS" according to your description I have to say my opinion on what equivalence is to me: If I wish to visit cnn.com, I can type it as CNN.COM, www.cnn.com, WWW.CNN.COM or any other combination without problem, it will almost always resolve. Of course www.cnn.com=cnn.com is an equivalence that is not a DNS function but for now please disregard this. If I wish to send an email, I can send it to joe@cnn.com or joe@CNN.COM, it will always arrive. I have many times heard the argument that a domain name is just a tag for a numeric address, I have used this argument many times myself. However, it happens that in Latin this identifier is very flexible and serves correctly the use of a language written in Latin characters. If I do the same in a Greek domain name it will be different in small letters than the domain in capital letters because of the accented tonos letter that we use in almost all our words in small letters. If you use the final sigma at the end of the word (every male name and lots of other words) the domain will be different than the domain name in capital because in capital we use the normal sigma. For each domain with a final sigma and a tonos you will have to use four different domain names to be sure that the user will type the word as a normal user would and arrive at the web page or send an email that is expected to reach a destination some day. It is not the same with color and colour. We do not wish to equalize two words that clearly are distinctive. We just wish to provide the user with the option to use the language as normally as possible. For this we tried to use DNAME - it is not good enough. We have to have a stronger, more robust solution that takes care all of the above problems. I am following your discussion with great interest and I wish to express my thanks to all who have put significant thought on the issues this proposal faces. I would like to ask you not to be negative to this proposal. You do not face the issue and it is normal to be skeptic about a solution to a problem that does not exist for you, for us though it is a major issue. Kind Regards, Vaggelis Segredakis Administrator of the .GR Top Level Domain Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas Tel. +30-281-0391450 Fax +30-281-0391451 Email segred@ics.forth.gr -----Original Message----- From: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Edward Lewis Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 5:17 PM To: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com Cc: Joe Abley; Andrew Sullivan; namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] cloning zones At 12:21 +0000 12/16/09, bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com wrote: >On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 12:00:51PM +0000, Joe Abley wrote: >> In other words, are we just providing equivalence in the namespace for >> the purpose of queries, or are we also doing so for answers? > if, as Ed suggests, we are looking at the mathmatical definition > of equivalence, then I would suggest that we would need equivalence > for queries and responses. When I was learning DNS and writing the early DNSSEC code, the following little sidebar set the standard for what is "correctness" in a response. Let's say Joe is a system admin in a large organization. He configures a new server to be at 192.0.2.213. He walks down to Bill's office, the guy who runs the DNS servers and says the new host is on 192.0.2.218 - an obvious error. When Bill enters this into the DNS and then signs it with DNSSEC, the result is that the 218 address is signed (source authenticity, integrity and all that). What won't happen inside the DNS is a correction when connects fail to be made to 218. Joe has to be alerted that the address is wrong, he will go to Bill and request the change. (Even if Bill hears there is a problem first, he'd call Joe to get the correct address.) The moral is that correctness of any response within the DNS is limited to the correctness of what is entered into the DNS. DNSSEC (or any other checks) won't overcome this. So, looking at the example (Andrew/Joe/Bill), the DNS itself knows of no special relationship between color and colour. The special relationship is established external to the DNS. The DNS is told to make the two "be equivalent." Outside the DNS space, there is talk that I would interpret as "we want these two zones to be equivalent." Inside the DNS space, we can craft a mechanism or technique to make two domains be equivalent. Of course, first we need to the equivalence function. For the outside of the DNS space, users of DNS want to make sure they get what they want. If the equivalence function is not what they have in mind, then nothing will be successful (like opening a connection to 218 when the host is at 213). For the inside of the DNS space discussions, the equivalence function will be what determines what technique or mechanism provides the desired outcome. That is why I am calling for the definition of equivalence. To the inside of DNS, it's not that important whether you want these examples to be equivalent or not: (use case[0]) (audible) our-eyes.tld. and hour-eyes.tld. (writing) . and . (visual) (the example of com in Cyrillic and ASCII) (dialect) color.us. and colour.co.uk. (slang) take-out-food.us. and take-away-food.sg. (biz relation) moms-spring-water.org. & subsidiary34.major-beverage-corp.com. [0] - I probably missed some reasons. That choice is policy from the outside of the DNS. The inside of DNS just has to figure out what the diff is between queries relating to the two domains that are supposed to be "equivalent." (Outside - the non-technical components of the protocol; inside - the network traffic on port 53 plus the software algorithms in the servers and other elements.) -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis NeuStar You can leave a voice message at +1-571-434-5468 As with IPv6, the problem with the deployment of frictionless surfaces is that they're not getting traction. 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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Dec 17 09:11:53 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FC493A6942; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 09:11:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.716 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.716 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.217, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_URI_EQUALS=1.666, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3A5ZJ5X1Des7; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 09:11:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D36E3A6884; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 09:11:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLJib-000IoO-4I for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 17:00:49 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLJiU-000Inx-PX for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 17:00:43 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (69-196-144-230.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 699EF2FE8CEE for ; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 17:00:39 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 12:00:37 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: We need a better problem statement (was: [dnsext] cloning zones) Message-ID: <20091217170037.GK43572@shinkuro.com> References: <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <4BAAB7D2-2084-4E76-8F96-1E8027F755E1@hopcount.ca> <20091216122135.GA14923@vacation.karoshi.com.> <18821656DEAD41D88B07153DB6DAF657@ics.forth.gr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <18821656DEAD41D88B07153DB6DAF657@ics.forth.gr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: No hat. A couple things from your mail. On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 11:03:42AM +0200, Vaggelis Segredakis wrote: > If I wish to visit cnn.com, I can type it as CNN.COM, www.cnn.com, > WWW.CNN.COM or any other combination without problem, it will almost always > resolve. Of course www.cnn.com=cnn.com is an equivalence that is not a DNS > function but for now please disregard this. Well, _no_, we can't disregard it. Just a few years ago, it was by no means predictable that if you used your web browser and connected to port 80 of whatever resolved to cnn.com, you would get exactly the same page as you would get if you used your web browser and attached to port 80 at whatever resolved to www.cnn.com. They're different names in the DNS, and at the time, since most of the web population was relatively clueful about these things, nobody was surprised that these were different. Over time, there evolved the practice that people would add an A record for the domain (in this case, cnn.com) that was equivalent to the original target host (in this case, www.cnn.com). It's not, however, even a reliable convention today. Importantly, it has _nothing at all_ to do with how the DNS works, and everything to do with how the zone administrators run their zones. The case-insensitive matching is, I grant, a different problem. But that is not exactly an issue in IDNA2008, because under that proposal the uppercase versions aren't legal anyway. So nobody can reach them. (I'm aware that this is the wrong list for debating the details of IDNA2008; I'm just trying to make clear the ways in which the plain-DNS/IDNA2008 analogy breaks down.) > If I wish to send an email, I can send it to joe@cnn.com or joe@CNN.COM, it > will always arrive. But note that there is no guarantee that joe@cnn.com and JOE@CNN.COM are the same address, because the local-part rules are a local matter. Just about nobody knows this, and servers for the most part do something sane rather than what is strictly allowed by the protocol. So from the same premise, we might be able to conclude that we should leave well enough alone here, because zone operators already have enough facilities to be able to put _in the DNS_ exactly what is needed to support the use case, even though it will be awkward. (If I understand him correctly, for instance, this is what Jim Reid is arguing.) > It is not the same with color and colour. We do not wish to equalize two > words that clearly are distinctive. Why are these clearly distinctive? In Canadian English according to at least one handy dictionary I have, those are the same word, period. In British and American English, one of them is a misspelling, but not in Canadian English. The only convention is that you have to pick one in a given document and stick with it. (This ambiguity is exactly why I picked them as an example.) > use DNAME - it is not good enough. We have to have a stronger, more robust > solution that takes care all of the above problems. Chair hat back on. My reading of the remarks in this thread is that "all the above problems" and "takes care of" are still underdefined. So a more complete, painfully-outlined problem statement is, I think, still needed. Perhaps someone could write up an Internet Draft with a complete outline of all the issues that we are trying to solve. Best regards, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Dec 17 09:36:54 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76C183A68E7; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 09:36:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.264 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.264 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.735, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aE+mZ61ifUTY; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 09:36:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 682653A63EB; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 09:36:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLK7G-000LlS-8O for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 17:26:18 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLK79-000LkO-SZ for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 17:26:12 +0000 Received: from [0.0.0.0] (gatt.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.6]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBHHQ46F001754; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 12:26:05 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <200912142233.nBEMXfuw022129@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <202705b0912141630p675234b1p6c324d2cef1ceeac@mail.gmail.com> <4B26E1E3.2030108@gmail.com> <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <5D65FA09-336E-4BB9-A563-83C3717C94DC@rfc1035.com> <4B28F2D0.1040200@ucd.ie> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 12:26:02 -0500 To: Jim Reid From: Edward Lewis Subject: Re: [dnsext] cloning zones Cc: Edward Lewis , namedroppers WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: At 16:00 +0000 12/16/09, Jim Reid wrote: >True. But is that marginal extra cost significant? Yes. Well, nothing in operations is absolute - the real answer is it could be, depending on where in the capacity step-curve the system is. >And if so, does saving that extra cost justify more complexity and >probably much greater costs for everyone else? That wasn't part of the question. Come to think of it, that question cuts both ways. >It's all very well to consider the overheads on those publishing DNS data. >But that should be traded off against the extra overheads for those reading >(and validating?) that data, particularly for operating and troubleshooting >resolvers. Well, I would think considering that, then the costs on duplicate zones are even higher. It's like this. When I run into a bug involving a zone of 2M(illion) names, my first reaction is to build a zone of 50 names and see *how* I can replicate the issue. I do this because, once I am successful in replicating the problem, the time it takes to "twiddle, load, run, test" is much shorter when you are loading 50 names and not 2M. Further, when it comes time to make the bug report, a zonefile of 50 can be cut and pasted into email easier than 2M. (BTW, I just did that again this week.) >> 2) Extra cryptographic work load to maintain DNSSEC >> >> Let's say 5 M signatures do a zone, and just 6 do the "pointer" to it. >> If I need to have two full copies, that means I go from 5,000,006 to >> 10,000,000 signatures to manage. > >Computers are good at repetitive tasks. :-) Computers don't write checks for support licenses, power bills, and rack space. (In the case that a doubling means I need another rack or power circuit or...) >Presumably the "just 6" signatures refers to some sort of signature over a >DNAME for a TLD. But what would that actually mean in practice for validation? "Just 6" refers the approximate number of signature records a tiny zone needs. Like SOA RRSIG, NSEC RRSIG, NS RRSIG, DNSKEY RRSIG. I probably got 6 from usually counting two DNSKEY RRs and/or NSEC3PARAM RRSIG. (Those are all "large" records in a small zone, other records have negligible impact.) >Suppose foo is a DNAME for the signed bar TLD. How will my resolver validate >www.ed.foo when there's no ZSK/KSK for .foo and the chain of trust >goes through >.bar? Is that likely to create unwanted surprises for the resolver or >application or end user? And what will be the impact on signing/validation >for a synthesised CNAME? Someone really needs to write a textbook quality tome on DNSSEC someday. This is basic DNSSEC stuff, independent of the thread's topics. If you have X CNAME Y, Y CNAME Z, and Z CNAME W, with a trust anchor covering X and Z but not Y, then you can validate the first CNAME, the last CNAME, and if you have an anchor over W, the data at W. But you can't verify Y CNAME Z. What is the unwanted "surprise" here? If you "traverse" through an unsigned zone the traversing is not DNSSEC protected. But it's like going to a web page using DNSSEC for the HTML file but then accessing advertising links that don't use DNSSEC. DNSSEC protects DNSSEC data, when you try to look at it from the point of view of an application, you'll get lost. >> 3) Having to ensure no cruft builds up the separate copies >> >> In an age of large, high churn zones, deltas are used. Once a >> wrong record gets in one place, it will stay there until discovered. > >Cruft and entropy doesn't go away when there's just one zone. Besides, when >there's cruft in the back-end registry database, it will find its way into >the zone file. So when the zone is cloned, the same cruft gets cloned too. Yes, and that is my point. Recently in an exercise on some old data I discovered that 1 in 10,000 NSEC3 records were in error. It took me two weeks of reverse engineering the hashes (don't get excited NSEC3 fans - I ran all the names of the zone -which I had- through a tool to see the hashes, then matched up the hashes - I didn't crack the crypto) to identify the 200 names. The names weren't otherwise distinguishable. Imagine if I had to do that in two places (zones). (Yes, if the bug was in the database, the names would be the same. But if the bug was in the update/load process...) The point is, the number replicated zones is a multiplier on the load of operations management. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis NeuStar You can leave a voice message at +1-571-434-5468 As with IPv6, the problem with the deployment of frictionless surfaces is that they're not getting traction. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Dec 17 09:50:39 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FDD33A68B4; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 09:50:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.714 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.714 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.219, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_URI_EQUALS=1.666, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XB6Lxxgcm2+W; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 09:50:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C1E53A69D7; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 09:50:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLKLr-000NUt-91 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 17:41:23 +0000 Received: from [129.9.168.37] (helo=shbmap02.extra.chrysler.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLKLk-000NUF-TL for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 17:41:16 +0000 Received: from odbmap04.oddc.chrysler.com (Unknown_Domain [53.28.32.58]) by shbmap02.extra.chrysler.com (Symantec Brightmail Gateway) with SMTP id 2C.9D.03703.B3D6A2B4; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 12:41:15 -0500 (EST) X-AuditID: 8109a824-b7c89ae000000e77-42-4b2a6d3b06fc Received: from wokcdts1.is.chrysler.com (wokcdts1.is.chrysler.com [53.230.99.84]) by odbmap04.oddc.chrysler.com (Symantec Brightmail Gateway) with SMTP id 73.03.04531.B3D6A2B4; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 12:41:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wokcdts1.is.chrysler.com (8.13.6/8.9.1) with ESMTP id nBHHfEnm017587 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 12:41:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B2A6D3A.6070602@chrysler.com> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 12:41:14 -0500 From: Kevin Darcy User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20070802) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] Re: We need a better problem statement References: <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <4BAAB7D2-2084-4E76-8F96-1E8027F755E1@hopcount.ca> <20091216122135.GA14923@vacation.karoshi.com.> <18821656DEAD41D88B07153DB6DAF657@ics.forth.gr> <20091217170037.GK43572@shinkuro.com> In-Reply-To: <20091217170037.GK43572@shinkuro.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Andrew Sullivan wrote: > No hat. > > A couple things from your mail. > > On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 11:03:42AM +0200, Vaggelis Segredakis wrote: > > >> If I wish to visit cnn.com, I can type it as CNN.COM, www.cnn.com, >> WWW.CNN.COM or any other combination without problem, it will almost always >> resolve. Of course www.cnn.com=cnn.com is an equivalence that is not a DNS >> function but for now please disregard this. >> > > Well, _no_, we can't disregard it. Just a few years ago, it was by no > means predictable that if you used your web browser and connected to > port 80 of whatever resolved to cnn.com, you would get exactly the > same page as you would get if you used your web browser and attached > to port 80 at whatever resolved to www.cnn.com. They're different > names in the DNS, and at the time, since most of the web population > was relatively clueful about these things, nobody was surprised that > these were different. > > Over time, there evolved the practice that people would add an A > record for the domain (in this case, cnn.com) that was equivalent to > the original target host (in this case, www.cnn.com). It's not, > however, even a reliable convention today. Importantly, it has > _nothing at all_ to do with how the DNS works, and everything to do > with how the zone administrators run their zones. > > The case-insensitive matching is, I grant, a different problem. But > that is not exactly an issue in IDNA2008, because under that proposal > the uppercase versions aren't legal anyway. So nobody can reach > them. (I'm aware that this is the wrong list for debating the details > of IDNA2008; I'm just trying to make clear the ways in which the > plain-DNS/IDNA2008 analogy breaks down.) > > >> If I wish to send an email, I can send it to joe@cnn.com or joe@CNN.COM, it >> will always arrive. >> > > But note that there is no guarantee that joe@cnn.com and JOE@CNN.COM > are the same address, because the local-part rules are a local matter. > Just about nobody knows this, and servers for the most part do > something sane rather than what is strictly allowed by the protocol. > > > Just for the sake of completeness... RFC 5321, Section 2.4: However, exploiting the case sensitivity of mailbox local-parts impedes interoperability and is discouraged. - Kevin From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Dec 17 10:13:02 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AA853A694D; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 10:13:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XkyWieEIXVzj; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 10:12:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95C663A67EA; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 10:12:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLKjb-0000pe-PF for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 18:05:55 +0000 Received: from [195.54.233.70] (helo=hutch.rfc1035.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLKjV-0000pK-Db for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 18:05:49 +0000 Received: from gromit.rfc1035.com (gromit.rfc1035.com [195.54.233.69]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jim) by hutch.rfc1035.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 808C91542837; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 18:05:45 +0000 (GMT) Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Message-Id: From: Jim Reid To: Andrew Sullivan In-Reply-To: <20091217170037.GK43572@shinkuro.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Subject: [dnsext] Re: We need a better problem statement Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 18:05:45 +0000 References: <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <4BAAB7D2-2084-4E76-8F96-1E8027F755E1@hopcount.ca> <20091216122135.GA14923@vacation.karoshi.com.> <18821656DEAD41D88B07153DB6DAF657@ics.forth.gr> <20091217170037.GK43572@shinkuro.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 17 Dec 2009, at 17:00, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > So from the same premise, we might be able to conclude that we should > leave well enough alone here, because zone operators already have > enough facilities to be able to put _in the DNS_ exactly what is > needed to support the use case, even though it will be awkward. (If I > understand him correctly, for instance, this is what Jim Reid is > arguing.) Indeed. A clearer problem statement would be very helpful. Though on the face of it, I think it's going to be hard enough to come up with a viable definition of zone equivalence let alone a way of inventing a protocol to support that. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Dec 17 12:02:52 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B5353A6822; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 12:02:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.128 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.128 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.471, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 58B5yjwJiR3e; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 12:02:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 816013A6800; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 12:02:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLMNr-000AoO-SI for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 19:51:35 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLMNl-000Anr-OQ for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 19:51:29 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5834EA2BDA for ; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 19:51:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: We need a better problem statement In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 17 Dec 2009 18:05:45 GMT." References: <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <4BAAB7D2-2084-4E76-8F96-1E8027F755E1@hopcount.ca> <20091216122135.GA14923@vacation.karoshi.com.> <18821656DEAD41D88B07153DB6DAF657@ics.forth.gr> <20091217170037.GK43572@shinkuro.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 19:51:29 +0000 Message-ID: <50743.1261079489@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > From: Jim Reid > Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 18:05:45 +0000 > > A clearer problem statement would be very helpful. Though on the face of > it, I think it's going to be hard enough to come up with a viable > definition of zone equivalence let alone a way of inventing a protocol to > support that. at its highest level, a problem statement would have to acknowledge the rolling nature of all dns upgrades, and that without client side awareness for the first five to ten years, we're left pondering only statements of problems which have no good solutions. a problem statement that failed to take account of the long tail of client upgrades would be useless to us, and one that does take this into account will rule out many proposed solutions that i've seen proposed or defended in this thread. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Dec 17 12:28:54 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3927D3A693D; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 12:28:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.38 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.38 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.619, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mqbdL07XUq3C; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 12:28:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61E773A6900; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 12:28:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLMrl-000EEs-IP for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 20:22:29 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLMrf-000EEO-9c for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 20:22:23 +0000 Received: from [0.0.0.0] (ns.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.6]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBHKMHgK003064; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 15:22:17 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4B27F58D.1020902@dougbarton.us> References: <200912142233.nBEMXfuw022129@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <202705b0912141630p675234b1p6c324d2cef1ceeac@mail.gmail.com> <4B26E1E3.2030108@gmail.com> <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <4B27F58D.1020902@dougbarton.us> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 15:22:09 -0500 To: Doug Barton From: Edward Lewis Subject: Re: [dnsext] cloning zones Cc: Andrew Sullivan , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: At 12:46 -0800 12/15/09, Doug Barton wrote: >Furthermore, I am saying that there is no way to truly make what you >and Ed seem to be describing (treat every variant as an exact, >functional duplicate of the "front end" domain in every way, for every >purpose, including DNSSEC) without changes to the resolvers, which is >problematic politically as well. To put the cart and the horse in the right order, I am not stating how this should work, I am repeating what I am hear from others in the effort to understand the problem to solve. First - I have been asking "what does it mean to make two DOMAINS act the SAME." Not "why" and I really don't care about the motivation. >You can't, and you never will be able to. I actually have an idea that >I'll add to the end of this message, but no matter what c!3VeR h4cKz >we come up with the end result is always going to be that we have to >trust the delegee. > >So first of all, I repeat my request for a clearer definition of the >problem, political thorns and all. Those who have a distaste for >trying to craft technical solutions to solve policy disputes are free >not to participate. Political thorns? No, let's not do that here. Remove the reasons for trying to make two domains act the same. Stop thinking in terms of zones even. Let's say we have X DNAME Y in the attempt to make all queries in the X domain be the same as asking the Y domain. The query "X/IN/DNAME" will of course not be the same as "Y/IN/DNAME" - and if you define equivalence to exclude that difference you have succeeded (or are one step closer). >Enjoy kicking this one around, Maybe the problem is different. Maybe it's not a matter of copying data space into another. Maybe what we need to define is some sort of query redirection mechanism. CNAME and DNAME are the first two steps there. The problem with anything in the data space is that old servers don't know them. If the new types have no special processing, then it's okay, we have that RFC on handling unknown types. The problem is the special processing. Maybe we should recognize that and keep the data space only as dirty as it already is. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis NeuStar You can leave a voice message at +1-571-434-5468 As with IPv6, the problem with the deployment of frictionless surfaces is that they're not getting traction. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Dec 17 14:05:45 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 181AE28C173; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 14:05:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Oc-ekzeUQtnn; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 14:05:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5815128C172; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 14:05:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLOHz-000Myd-VA for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 21:53:39 +0000 Received: from [209.85.222.198] (helo=mail-pz0-f198.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLOHt-000MyH-T3 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 21:53:33 +0000 Received: by pzk36 with SMTP id 36so1773179pzk.5 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 13:53:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.115.38.40 with SMTP id q40mr2044377waj.95.1261086813375; Thu, 17 Dec 2009 13:53:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <5D65FA09-336E-4BB9-A563-83C3717C94DC@rfc1035.com> <4B28F2D0.1040200@ucd.ie> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 13:53:33 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [dnsext] cloning zones From: Matthew Dempsky To: Edward Lewis Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 7:25 AM, Edward Lewis wrote: > 1) Extra resources to maintain full copies of zones on-line This is only an issue if you precompute DNSSEC signatures. Otherwise, a nameserver can easily be built that knows to respond to colour.example.com queries by looking for color.example.com records, and then rewriting the domain names before sending the response to the client. > 2) Extra cryptographic work load to maintain DNSSEC This is again only an issue for precomputed DNSSEC signatures. CPU requirements for online authentication grow proportional to the number of queries, not the number of unique qnames. > 3) Having to ensure no cruft builds up the separate copies Again not an issue if the authoritative servers handle rewriting the domain names dynamically. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 18 01:13:35 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAEF03A657C; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 01:13:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.229 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.229 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.215, BAYES_05=-1.11, GB_I_LETTER=-2, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_URI_EQUALS=1.666, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VYvRb8vK-mzl; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 01:13:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35D463A686B; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 01:13:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLYhd-0002mn-VL for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 09:00:49 +0000 Received: from [139.91.1.2] (helo=mailgate.ics.forth.gr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLYhU-0002m0-TW for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 09:00:41 +0000 X-DNSBL-MILTER: Passed Received: from webmail.ics.forth.gr (sphinx.ics.forth.gr [139.91.1.4]) by mailgate.ics.forth.gr (8.14.3/ICS-FORTH/V10-1.5-GATE) with ESMTP id nBI90YTO021927; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:00:38 +0200 (EET) Received: from Thanatosnew ([139.91.88.160]) (authenticated bits=0) by webmail.ics.forth.gr (8.12.9//ICS-FORTH/V10.1.0C-EXTNULL-PLUS-SASL) with ESMTP id nBI90Qqt015708; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:00:29 +0200 (EET) From: "Vaggelis Segredakis" To: "'Andrew Sullivan'" , References: <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <4BAAB7D2-2084-4E76-8F96-1E8027F755E1@hopcount.ca> <20091216122135.GA14923@vacation.karoshi.com.> <18821656DEAD41D88B07153DB6DAF657@ics.forth.gr> <20091217170037.GK43572@shinkuro.com> Subject: RE: We need a better problem statement (was: [dnsext] cloning zones) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:00:27 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Thread-Index: Acp/Py7mmHz+mEHhTIqMgfZMG03UxQAd+eNQ In-Reply-To: <20091217170037.GK43572@shinkuro.com> X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 4B2B44B2.000 on mailgate : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-ICS-JCHK-SCL: Ham Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Dear Andrew, My use of English might has been misleading because I thought I have = already explained the problem. I will try to do it again with some examples: The domain names (you can use our converter https://grweb.ics.forth.gr/AceConverter?lang=3Den to view them in Greek) xn--0xadhj4a.gr and xn--0xaafjl.gr are the two variants necessary today for a user to use the word tax = (=F6=FC=F1=EF=F2) as a domain name. Why they are necessary? Because the first one is the = word with =FC (small omicron with tonos) where the second is without the = tonos. You use the first version if you type the word using small letters but the second one if you typed it in capital. You mentioned that the IDNA2008 eliminates upper case letters from the browser line. This is not exactly what happens; the protocol eliminates capital letters mapping to lower letters inside the protocol itself. The software of the browsers etc = will still be mapping the capital letters to small before PUNYCODE and = sending them to the DNS. This way the problem still exists because for the user = who inputs the domain in caps the first domain will be used where for the = user who inputs it in small letters the second domain will be used. In the IDNA2008 the problem doubles. Each one of the domains described becomes two variants: One with the small final sigma (a sigma used as = the last letter of a word) and one with a normal sigma (for the ones who = type it with a capital letter sigma which will be converted to a small sigma). You can accept all the above as a sad fact of life and ask the user to = set up all four domain names; Web servers, mail servers, zone files, ftp = servers etc. Would you consider it normal this way? How fragile this becomes as = a setup and how complicated? What would be the cost of it? A usual user does not know how a browser is operating beneath the = surface; He installs it, he runs it and voila! Web pages appear! He does not = setup ips anymore, someone came up with DHCP. Everything is created with the = human dimension built into it, taking in account the user experience.=20 This is not the case if you wish to use variants. Without xNAME variants = are not fully operational, they cannot serve as a four-in-one bundle in our example. You have to ask the user to adapt to the protocol or pay for expensive and fragile services. We really wish this stops being the = case. We would like to be able to assist the user with a proper workaround since = this happens because of the IDNA protocols and it is not a user fault. The specs for the xNAME? Name1 xNAME name2 means that the whole tree (+ that level) are working = as a single name. ftp name1 =3D ftp name2 http://name1 =3D http://name2 http://www.name1 =3D http://www.name2 email user1@name1 =3D email user1@name2 IETF proposed the bundles as a solution to variant registration = (RFC4290), some registries followed because there was no better alternative. Now = that we have worked for some years with these bundles, we need a real tool to make them elegant and easy to use; xNAME is a necessity. I would very much like to be more technically competent to draw in = detail and with precise specs our requirement but I pretty much know you all = have a picture of what we are asking for. Best Regards, Vaggelis Segredakis -----Original Message----- From: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Sullivan Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 7:01 PM To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: We need a better problem statement (was: [dnsext] cloning = zones) No hat. A couple things from your mail. On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 11:03:42AM +0200, Vaggelis Segredakis wrote: > If I wish to visit cnn.com, I can type it as CNN.COM, www.cnn.com, > WWW.CNN.COM or any other combination without problem, it will almost always > resolve. Of course www.cnn.com=3Dcnn.com is an equivalence that is not = a DNS > function but for now please disregard this. Well, _no_, we can't disregard it. Just a few years ago, it was by no means predictable that if you used your web browser and connected to port 80 of whatever resolved to cnn.com, you would get exactly the same page as you would get if you used your web browser and attached to port 80 at whatever resolved to www.cnn.com. They're different names in the DNS, and at the time, since most of the web population was relatively clueful about these things, nobody was surprised that these were different. =20 Over time, there evolved the practice that people would add an A record for the domain (in this case, cnn.com) that was equivalent to the original target host (in this case, www.cnn.com). It's not, however, even a reliable convention today. Importantly, it has _nothing at all_ to do with how the DNS works, and everything to do with how the zone administrators run their zones. =20 The case-insensitive matching is, I grant, a different problem. But that is not exactly an issue in IDNA2008, because under that proposal the uppercase versions aren't legal anyway. So nobody can reach them. (I'm aware that this is the wrong list for debating the details of IDNA2008; I'm just trying to make clear the ways in which the plain-DNS/IDNA2008 analogy breaks down.) > If I wish to send an email, I can send it to joe@cnn.com or = joe@CNN.COM, it > will always arrive. But note that there is no guarantee that joe@cnn.com and JOE@CNN.COM are the same address, because the local-part rules are a local matter. Just about nobody knows this, and servers for the most part do something sane rather than what is strictly allowed by the protocol. So from the same premise, we might be able to conclude that we should leave well enough alone here, because zone operators already have enough facilities to be able to put _in the DNS_ exactly what is needed to support the use case, even though it will be awkward. (If I understand him correctly, for instance, this is what Jim Reid is arguing.) > It is not the same with color and colour. We do not wish to equalize = two > words that clearly are distinctive. Why are these clearly distinctive? In Canadian English according to at least one handy dictionary I have, those are the same word, period. In British and American English, one of them is a misspelling, but not in Canadian English. The only convention is that you have to pick one in a given document and stick with it. (This ambiguity is exactly why I picked them as an example.) > use DNAME - it is not good enough. We have to have a stronger, more = robust > solution that takes care all of the above problems.=20 Chair hat back on. My reading of the remarks in this thread is that "all the above problems" and "takes care of" are still underdefined. So a more complete, painfully-outlined problem statement is, I think, still needed. Perhaps someone could write up an Internet Draft with a complete outline of all the issues that we are trying to solve. Best regards, A --=20 Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 18 02:06:26 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBC633A696F; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 02:06:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.874 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.874 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.725, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zBC+K4eYlHln; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 02:06:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 993213A682B; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 02:06:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLZZR-0008gz-MM for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 09:56:25 +0000 Received: from [204.14.89.4] (helo=mail2.fluidhosting.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLZZK-0008gL-VN for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 09:56:19 +0000 Received: (qmail 4625 invoked by uid 399); 18 Dec 2009 09:56:17 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO foreign.dougb.net) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTPAM; 18 Dec 2009 09:56:17 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Sender: dougb@dougbarton.us Message-ID: <4B2B51C3.7030601@dougbarton.us> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 01:56:19 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20091206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vaggelis Segredakis CC: 'Andrew Sullivan' , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] Re: We need a better problem statement References: <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <4BAAB7D2-2084-4E76-8F96-1E8027F755E1@hopcount.ca> <20091216122135.GA14923@vacation.karoshi.com.> <18821656DEAD41D88B07153DB6DAF657@ics.forth.gr> <20091217170037.GK43572@shinkuro.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D5B2F0FB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Vaggelis, Thank you for helping to make the requirements more clear. A few comments below. Vaggelis Segredakis wrote: > Dear Andrew, > > My use of English might has been misleading because I thought I have already > explained the problem. I will try to do it again with some examples: > > The domain names (you can use our converter > https://grweb.ics.forth.gr/AceConverter?lang=en to view them in Greek) You might suggest to your webmasters to do some testing of that page in Firefox. It does not render well for me (although it may be a FreeBSD-Firefox issue, I haven't tested it in Windows). > xn--0xadhj4a.gr and > xn--0xaafjl.gr Both of these names are displayed in lower-case letters using the punycode converter. Based on your discussion below about how IDNA 2008 mandates everything in lower case, that seems to be a feature, although it's amazing to me that IDNA 2008 would mandate that. I'm snipping your excellent discussion of with/without tonos and the terminal sigma. I studied ancient greek in college so I actually understand the terminal sigma issue pretty well. :) I also agree with the point that I think you're making which is that no matter what form of the word that the user types each form should function the same way. This idea of "same" should, from the standpoint of the end user, function in exactly the same way that cnn.com/CNN.COM/cNn.Com/etc. function in the DNS today. Would you agree that this is a correct statement of the problem? What you write below seems to indicate that my perception is correct, but it would be nice if you could confirm it. > The specs for the xNAME? > Name1 xNAME name2 means that the whole tree (+ that level) are working as a > single name. > ftp name1 = ftp name2 > http://name1 = http://name2 > http://www.name1 = http://www.name2 > email user1@name1 = email user1@name2 Ok, given this understanding of the requirement, have you had a chance to examine my proposal for the CLONE RR? You can find the description at http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2009/msg03106.html. I believe that if we could implement that it would fulfill the requirement of "the same" with a minimum of delay and/or disruption. To be clear, that proposal would require the registry to make software changes in their authoritative DNS servers (which is going to have to happen no matter what technical solution we embrace), and the registrant to set up the clone configuration for each of the variants. The latter should be reduced to anywhere from one to a few lines of configuration in their name server per variant. Registrars or registries that provide name service for their customers could of course automate this process, so to the "average" registrant it would be fairly painless. As Paul Vixie and I have both pointed out on this thread, there is no solution that can give 100% "sameness" that does not involve changes to the resolvers that Internet end users currently depend on. One benefit of the CLONE idea is that except for DNSSEC the variants would all look and act exactly as if the what the user typed in was the "real" domain. In order for the CLONE idea to work for DNSSEC the resolver would have to understand what to do with the CLONE RR. If this sounds like a direction that would be worth pursuing from your perspective it would be useful to know that. If there are deficiencies in the idea it would be useful to know that too. :) Of course if anything in the CLONE idea is not clear, please let me know. Regards, Doug -- Improve the effectiveness of your Internet presence with a domain name makeover! http://SupersetSolutions.com/ From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 18 02:34:21 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09C2F3A6995; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 02:34:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.85 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.85 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.749, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n6nh0bkvyCaN; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 02:34:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E9543A6862; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 02:34:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLa2Z-000DOf-NO for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:26:31 +0000 Received: from [139.91.1.2] (helo=mailgate.ics.forth.gr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLa2R-000DMm-QM for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:26:24 +0000 X-DNSBL-MILTER: Passed Received: from webmail.ics.forth.gr (sphinx.ics.forth.gr [139.91.1.4]) by mailgate.ics.forth.gr (8.14.3/ICS-FORTH/V10-1.5-GATE) with ESMTP id nBIAQJiU024818; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 12:26:20 +0200 (EET) Received: from Thanatosnew ([139.91.88.160]) (authenticated bits=0) by webmail.ics.forth.gr (8.12.9//ICS-FORTH/V10.1.0C-EXTNULL-PLUS-SASL) with ESMTP id nBIAQAqt019589; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 12:26:14 +0200 (EET) From: "Vaggelis Segredakis" To: "'Doug Barton'" Cc: "'Andrew Sullivan'" , References: <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <4BAAB7D2-2084-4E76-8F96-1E8027F755E1@hopcount.ca> <20091216122135.GA14923@vacation.karoshi.com.> <18821656DEAD41D88B07153DB6DAF657@ics.forth.gr> <20091217170037.GK43572@shinkuro.com> <4B2B51C3.7030601@dougbarton.us> Subject: [dnsext] RE: We need a better problem statement Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 12:26:10 +0200 Message-ID: <3F824140CABE44CC96F3EB7A6A7FC1CE@ics.forth.gr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Thread-Index: Acp/yF30EZpDwSTuSKiIArBy/U1QCgAAtiIg In-Reply-To: <4B2B51C3.7030601@dougbarton.us> X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 4B2B58CB.001 on mailgate : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-ICS-JCHK-SCL: Ham Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Hello Doug, Thank you for your reply >I'm snipping your excellent discussion of with/without tonos and the >terminal sigma. I studied ancient greek in college so I actually >understand the terminal sigma issue pretty well. :) I also agree with >the point that I think you're making which is that no matter what form >of the word that the user types each form should function the same >way. This idea of "same" should, from the standpoint of the end user, >function in exactly the same way that cnn.com/CNN.COM/cNn.Com/etc. >function in the DNS today. Would you agree that this is a correct >statement of the problem? What you write below seems to indicate that >my perception is correct, but it would be nice if you could confirm it. This appears to be a correct statement, especially if you succeed on this for all service, email, ftp, http etc. >> The specs for the xNAME? >> Name1 xNAME name2 means that the whole tree (+ that level) are working as >a >> single name. >> ftp name1 = ftp name2 >> http://name1 = http://name2 >> http://www.name1 = http://www.name2 >> email user1@name1 = email user1@name2 >Ok, given this understanding of the requirement, have you had a chance >to examine my proposal for the CLONE RR? You can find the description >at >http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2009/msg03106.html. >I believe that if we could implement that it would fulfill the >requirement of "the same" with a minimum of delay and/or disruption. I looked at your proposal again. I hope this proposal does not mean that some registries will have std Bind and some have a modified one. This road appears to be very slippery and the registries that will have to modify things will soon find themselves with problems. Whatever is decided should be a part of regular and steady releases of software, otherwise we could even today hack things up and terminate this discussion. I might have misunderstood something though so please clarify if I have. Best Regards, Vaggelis Segredakis From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 18 03:22:46 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43C5C3A694A; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 03:22:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.080, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_55=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nbV+4ZA7QpJW; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 03:22:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1FB53A68C4; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 03:22:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLaod-000Klz-0q for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:16:11 +0000 Received: from [204.14.89.4] (helo=mail2.fluidhosting.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLaoV-000KlJ-9H for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:16:03 +0000 Received: (qmail 27568 invoked by uid 399); 18 Dec 2009 11:16:02 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO foreign.dougb.net) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTPAM; 18 Dec 2009 11:16:02 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Sender: dougb@dougbarton.us Message-ID: <4B2B6475.8000202@dougbarton.us> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 03:16:05 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20091206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vaggelis Segredakis CC: 'Andrew Sullivan' , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] Re: We need a better problem statement References: <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <4BAAB7D2-2084-4E76-8F96-1E8027F755E1@hopcount.ca> <20091216122135.GA14923@vacation.karoshi.com.> <18821656DEAD41D88B07153DB6DAF657@ics.forth.gr> <20091217170037.GK43572@shinkuro.com> <4B2B51C3.7030601@dougbarton.us> <3F824140CABE44CC96F3EB7A6A7FC1CE@ics.forth.gr> In-Reply-To: <3F824140CABE44CC96F3EB7A6A7FC1CE@ics.forth.gr> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D5B2F0FB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Vaggelis Segredakis wrote: > I looked at your proposal again. I hope this proposal does not mean that > some registries will have std Bind and some have a modified one. This road > appears to be very slippery and the registries that will have to modify > things will soon find themselves with problems. Whatever is decided should > be a part of regular and steady releases of software, otherwise we could > even today hack things up and terminate this discussion. I might have > misunderstood something though so please clarify if I have. I think I understand your concern correctly, so let me try to restate what I am proposing in a way that will address it. What I wrote in my previous e-mail message is a "rough draft" of an idea that that I would like to see turned into an Internet-Draft, and then an RFC that could be implemented as a standard part of the DNS protocol by all software authors. That said, it's very important for everyone to be on the same page in terms of what will be required on the technical end to solve this problem. The DNS protocol (and by extension, the existing software) does not currently include what is needed to solve the problem of making variants act "the same" as other domains. Even the simplest change to the current protocol (the CNAME+DNAME idea) would require changes to the authoritative server software of the parent domain (whether the parent is a TLD or not). The benefit of the CLONE idea is that it can be implemented fairly easily in the authoritative name servers of the parent and child zone operators and this will give you "the same for every purpose except DNSSEC" without depending on the resolvers being updated. The one technical solution that does exist right now is the "multiple delegation" idea, which requires that the parent to delegate each variant separately, and the child to somehow duplicate the zone data for each variant. This idea would also work for everything except DNSSEC for the variants, however it creates a comparatively large maintenance problem for the child zone operator. FWIW, I do believe that there are technical solutions to the maintenance issues that render them fairly painless, however the fact that the "multiple delegation" idea does not handle DNSSEC for the variants means that it is not a full solution to the problem of making the variants totally "the same." The fact that the "multiple delegation" idea is also politically problematic effectively makes it a non-starter. I hope that this makes the landscape more clear. Doug -- Improve the effectiveness of your Internet presence with a domain name makeover! http://SupersetSolutions.com/ From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 18 03:51:21 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 082CB3A682E; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 03:51:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_55=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FU+7nGIY74oq; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 03:51:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3ABCE3A657C; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 03:51:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLbA3-000N1m-J6 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:38:19 +0000 Received: from [65.55.88.13] (helo=TX2EHSOBE005.bigfish.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLb9v-000N0y-IM for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:38:11 +0000 Received: from mail181-tx2-R.bigfish.com (10.9.14.250) by TX2EHSOBE005.bigfish.com (10.9.40.25) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.340.0; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:38:10 +0000 Received: from mail181-tx2 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail181-tx2-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7156813A0156; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:38:10 +0000 (UTC) X-SpamScore: -50 X-BigFish: VS-50(zz542N13fcPa0dJ9370J98dN217bR9970kzz1202hzz1033ILz2fh6bh308i61h) Received: from mail181-tx2 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail181-tx2 (MessageSwitch) id 1261136289566460_25863; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:38:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from TX2EHSMHS042.bigfish.com (unknown [10.9.14.248]) by mail181-tx2.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C9BE1100055; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:38:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from sj-smtp01.altera.com (66.35.227.6) by TX2EHSMHS042.bigfish.com (10.9.99.142) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.0.482.32; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:38:08 +0000 Received: from sj-mail01.altera.com ([137.57.1.6]) by sj-smtp01.altera.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id nBIBPk2R022000; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 03:25:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-ithc01.altera.priv.altera.com (sj-ithc01.altera.priv.altera.com [137.57.243.241]) by sj-mail01.altera.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id nBIBc7hA002111; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 03:38:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from SJ-ISGW01.altera.priv.altera.com (137.57.216.202) by sj-ithc01.altera.priv.altera.com (137.57.243.241) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.336.0; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 03:38:05 -0800 Received: from uk-itmsg01.altera.priv.altera.com ([137.57.183.231]) by SJ-ISGW01.altera.priv.altera.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 18 Dec 2009 03:38:05 -0800 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Subject: RE: [dnsext] Re: We need a better problem statement Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:38:02 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4B2B6475.8000202@dougbarton.us> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [dnsext] Re: We need a better problem statement Thread-Index: Acp/0++hTDIt9LOiRiiwKL9fEXaPTgAAGtkg References: <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <4BAAB7D2-2084-4E76-8F96-1E8027F755E1@hopcount.ca> <20091216122135.GA14923@vacation.karoshi.com.> <18821656DEAD41D88B07153DB6DAF657@ics.forth.gr> <20091217170037.GK43572@shinkuro.com> <4B2B51C3.7030601@dougbarton.us> <3F824140CABE44CC96F3EB7A6A7FC1CE@ics.forth.gr> <4B2B6475.8000202@dougbarton.us> From: Andrew Draper To: "Doug Barton" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Dec 2009 11:38:05.0348 (UTC) FILETIME=[90426640:01CA7FD6] X-Reverse-DNS: sj-smtp01.altera.com Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: I thought I understood the clone idea but now I'm confused. How does it differ from eNAME, which as I understand it is pretty much equivalent to CNAME+DNAME? If clone happens all on the server for tld then why does the child server (for domain.tld) need to do anything different with zone loading tricks? As I understand it the problem needs to be solved for three classes of resolver: - Those that are new and understand the new protocol (whatever it is) - Those that are not DNSSEC aware - Those that are DNSSEC aware but don't understand the new protocol Lets call these NEW, NON-DNSSEC and CURRENT respectively. New resolvers clearly won't have any backwards compatibility concerns. CNAME synthesis can be used for non-dnssec resolvers in both cases, but puts the load on the parent server if there's a zone cut (as there usually will be) But I don't see a solution for current dnssec aware resolvers in either CLONE or eNAME. Andy -----Original Message----- From: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Doug Barton Sent: 18 December 2009 11:16 To: Vaggelis Segredakis Cc: 'Andrew Sullivan'; namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] Re: We need a better problem statement Vaggelis Segredakis wrote: > I looked at your proposal again. I hope this proposal does not mean that > some registries will have std Bind and some have a modified one. This road > appears to be very slippery and the registries that will have to modify > things will soon find themselves with problems. Whatever is decided should > be a part of regular and steady releases of software, otherwise we could > even today hack things up and terminate this discussion. I might have > misunderstood something though so please clarify if I have. I think I understand your concern correctly, so let me try to restate what I am proposing in a way that will address it. What I wrote in my previous e-mail message is a "rough draft" of an idea that that I would like to see turned into an Internet-Draft, and then an RFC that could be implemented as a standard part of the DNS protocol by all software authors. That said, it's very important for everyone to be on the same page in terms of what will be required on the technical end to solve this problem. The DNS protocol (and by extension, the existing software) does not currently include what is needed to solve the problem of making variants act "the same" as other domains. Even the simplest change to the current protocol (the CNAME+DNAME idea) would require changes to the authoritative server software of the parent domain (whether the parent is a TLD or not). The benefit of the CLONE idea is that it can be implemented fairly easily in the authoritative name servers of the parent and child zone operators and this will give you "the same for every purpose except DNSSEC" without depending on the resolvers being updated. The one technical solution that does exist right now is the "multiple delegation" idea, which requires that the parent to delegate each variant separately, and the child to somehow duplicate the zone data for each variant. This idea would also work for everything except DNSSEC for the variants, however it creates a comparatively large maintenance problem for the child zone operator. FWIW, I do believe that there are technical solutions to the maintenance issues that render them fairly painless, however the fact that the "multiple delegation" idea does not handle DNSSEC for the variants means that it is not a full solution to the problem of making the variants totally "the same." The fact that the "multiple delegation" idea is also politically problematic effectively makes it a non-starter. I hope that this makes the landscape more clear. Doug -- Improve the effectiveness of your Internet presence with a domain name makeover! http://SupersetSolutions.com/ To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by applicable law, we inform= you of the following: Name of Company Altera Europe Limited Company Registration # 2647731 Place of Registration Cardiff, Wales (Companies House) Registered Office Address Holmers Farm Way, High Wycombe, Buckingh= amshire. HP12 4XF Confidentiality Notice. This message may contain information that is confidential or otherwise prot= ected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, you are here= by notified that any use, disclosure, dissemination, distribution, or copy= ing of this message, or any attachments, is strictly prohibited. If you h= ave received this message in error, please advise the sender by reply e-mai= l, and delete the message and any attachments. Thank you. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 18 04:19:31 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A53B3A6A6B; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 04:19:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.632 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.632 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.233, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_43=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_55=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NyN4QJr4ac1G; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 04:19:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B2673A69C7; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 04:19:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLbjn-0000tP-Nw for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 12:15:15 +0000 Received: from [204.14.89.4] (helo=mail2.fluidhosting.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLbjf-0000rx-2r for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 12:15:07 +0000 Received: (qmail 11340 invoked by uid 399); 18 Dec 2009 12:15:05 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO foreign.dougb.net) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTPAM; 18 Dec 2009 12:15:05 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Sender: dougb@dougbarton.us Message-ID: <4B2B724C.7040208@dougbarton.us> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 04:15:08 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20091206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrew Draper CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: We need a better problem statement References: <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <4BAAB7D2-2084-4E76-8F96-1E8027F755E1@hopcount.ca> <20091216122135.GA14923@vacation.karoshi.com.> <18821656DEAD41D88B07153DB6DAF657@ics.forth.gr> <20091217170037.GK43572@shinkuro.com> <4B2B51C3.7030601@dougbarton.us> <3F824140CABE44CC96F3EB7A6A7FC1CE@ics.forth.gr> <4B2B6475.8000202@dougbarton.us> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D5B2F0FB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Andrew Draper wrote: > I thought I understood the clone idea but now I'm confused. > > How does it differ from eNAME, which as I understand it is pretty much > equivalent to CNAME+DNAME? > > If clone happens all on the server for tld then why does the child > server (for domain.tld) need to do anything different with zone loading > tricks? Did you read the post where I described the idea? It's at http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2009/msg03106.html. Apparently I did a very poor job of describing my proposal, I'll try to clarify it here. I'm not proposing that CLONE happen only on the parent's authoritative servers. My proposal has 2 (well, 2.5 really) components. Authoritative for the parent, authoritative for the child, and resolvers. For the parent, CLONE is an in-zone RR. Such as: label NS ns1.label NS ns2.label DS variant1 CLONE label variant2 CLONE label etc. In the authoritative server for the child you could either create "regular" zone definitions in the configuration file and "simple" zone files that specify "only" a CLONE RR (for currently unspecified definitions of "simple" and "only") or preferably a configuration file option such as (for a BIND'ish example): zone "variant1.tld" { clone "label.tld"; }; The CLONE-aware resolver would do to signal such to the authoritative servers, who would then return appropriate CLONE records to the resolver. The resolver would then use these CLONE RRs to handle its internal definitions of equivalent domains. A request for www.variant1.tld would result in a CLONE RR that says "variant1.tld == label.tld" and the resolver would then internally change requests for [foo.]variant1.tld to requests for [foo.]label.tld, get all the information, validate as necessary, but then return the answer as if it had been using variant1.tld all along. To the end user the domains would function in exactly the same manner for every purpose. Only the resolver would know that there was anything out of the ordinary happening. If the authoritative server gets a request from a non-CLONE-aware resolver it treats the request as if it had been for [foo.]label.tld. So once again, for the end user the two domains are totally the same. The only difference is that for the non-CLONE resolver DNSSEC validation will fail. > As I understand it the problem needs to be solved for three classes of > resolver: > - Those that are new and understand the new protocol (whatever it is) I think I've described this adequately above, if not please let me know. > - Those that are not DNSSEC aware For these resolvers no changes are necessary. Everything will work for them as if variantN.tld actually is label.tld. > - Those that are DNSSEC aware but don't understand the new protocol These will fail to validate any answers for the variants. > Lets call these NEW, NON-DNSSEC and CURRENT respectively. > > New resolvers clearly won't have any backwards compatibility concerns. > > CNAME synthesis can be used for non-dnssec resolvers in both cases, No no no no no no no. No CNAMEs. I am specifically NOT proposing a solution that relies on CNAMEs at all. Please re-read what I'm actually proposing. Any solution that relies on CNAMEs (or DNAMEs for that matter) does not solve the actual problem of making 2 different domains "the same." This is another reason why I'm suggesting an RR with a totally different semantic (as much as I do think Paul's suggestion of Ename was clever). > but > puts the load on the parent server if there's a zone cut (as there > usually will be) This part is accurate, yes. For answers to non-CLONE-aware resolvers it will be up to the authoritative name server to "synthesize" the answer, but this is quite easily handled with some internal sleight of hand. I don't see a load issue here, but if I'm missing something please let me know. > But I don't see a solution for current dnssec aware resolvers in either > CLONE or eNAME. There isn't one, nor can there be one (unless one of the DNSSEC protocol gurus can pull a rabbit out of their hat, but I think even I understand it well enough to be sure that's not going to happen). To get DNSSEC + $SOLUTION the resolvers will have to be updated, full stop. Now the good news is that ALL of the extant resolvers in anything even closely resembling production today will have to be upgraded to get DNSSEC + SHA-2 for the purposes of validating the root some time next year anyway. So if we can actually agree on what the solution will be in something resembling a timely manner it's not impossible that we'll have the software to match in roughly the same time frame, if not shortly thereafter. Speaking realistically for a moment, as much as I am a strong proponent of DNSSEC and am fully committed to finding a solution to this problem that includes it; the authoritative-only part of CLONE will solve 95% of the needs of the average end user as soon as it's deployed. And unless I'm missing something really dramatic, actually writing the code to do it should not be that difficult. hth, Doug -- Improve the effectiveness of your Internet presence with a domain name makeover! http://SupersetSolutions.com/ From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 18 04:20:35 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AD623A6A6C; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 04:20:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.763 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.763 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.836, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YnaZBvMgAjVS; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 04:20:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB0E43A6A73; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 04:20:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLbfB-0000Ho-RJ for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 12:10:29 +0000 Received: from [131.111.8.135] (helo=ppsw-5.csi.cam.ac.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLbf4-0000HR-1r for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 12:10:22 +0000 X-Cam-AntiVirus: no malware found X-Cam-SpamDetails: not scanned X-Cam-ScannerInfo: http://www.cam.ac.uk/cs/email/scanner/ Received: from hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.8.51]:60465) by ppsw-5.csi.cam.ac.uk (smtp.hermes.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.155]:25) with esmtpa (EXTERNAL:cet1) id 1NLbf1-0004Gg-J6 (Exim 4.70) (return-path ); Fri, 18 Dec 2009 12:10:19 +0000 Received: from prayer by hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk (hermes.cam.ac.uk) with local (PRAYER:cet1) id 1NLbf1-0008Li-T8 (Exim 4.67) (return-path ); Fri, 18 Dec 2009 12:10:19 +0000 Received: from [131.111.11.47] by webmail.hermes.cam.ac.uk with HTTP (Prayer-1.3.2); 18 Dec 2009 12:10:18 +0000 Date: 18 Dec 2009 12:10:18 +0000 From: Chris Thompson To: Matthew Dempsky Cc: Edward Lewis , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Reply-To: cet1@cam.ac.uk Subject: Re: [dnsext] cloning zones Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <5D65FA09-336E-4BB9-A563-83C3717C94DC@rfc1035.com> <4B28F2D0.1040200@ucd.ie> X-Mailer: Prayer v1.3.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Dec 17 2009, Matthew Dempsky wrote: >On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 7:25 AM, Edward Lewis wrote: >> 1) Extra resources to maintain full copies of zones on-line > >This is only an issue if you precompute DNSSEC signatures. Otherwise, >a nameserver can easily be built that knows to respond to >colour.example.com queries by looking for color.example.com records, >and then rewriting the domain names before sending the response to the >client. > >> 2) Extra cryptographic work load to maintain DNSSEC > >This is again only an issue for precomputed DNSSEC signatures. CPU >requirements for online authentication grow proportional to the number >of queries, not the number of unique qnames. > >> 3) Having to ensure no cruft builds up the separate copies > >Again not an issue if the authoritative servers handle rewriting the >domain names dynamically. "Precomputed DNSSEC signatures" are necessary unless all authoritative servers for the zone have access to the (private halves of) the keys. Any solution that requires that is going to have very restricted applicability. (Would ICANN/Verisign want all root server operators to be able to sign with the root ZSK? I doubt it ...) -- Chris Thompson University of Cambridge Computing Service, Email: cet1@ucs.cam.ac.uk New Museums Site, Cambridge CB2 3QH, Phone: +44 1223 334715 United Kingdom. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 18 04:53:02 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A101F3A6955; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 04:53:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.834 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.834 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.165, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_55=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N5bkLo2IMoM9; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 04:52:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2725D3A6A31; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 04:52:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLcCu-00041F-BR for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 12:45:20 +0000 Received: from [193.1.169.34] (helo=dakota.ucd.ie) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLcCo-00040b-9Q for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 12:45:14 +0000 Received: from conversion-daemon.dakota.ucd.ie by dakota.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-2.05 (built Apr 28 2005)) id <0KUU00C01LYS4T00@dakota.ucd.ie> (original mail from Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie) for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 12:45:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.0.1.177] (bark.no8.be [83.141.81.52]) by dakota.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-2.05 (built Apr 28 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0KUU006TPM3AI000@dakota.ucd.ie>; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 12:45:11 +0000 (GMT) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 12:45:10 +0000 From: Niall O'Reilly Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: We need a better problem statement In-reply-to: <4B2B6475.8000202@dougbarton.us> To: Doug Barton Cc: Vaggelis Segredakis , 'Andrew Sullivan' , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Message-id: <4B2B7956.5060005@ucd.ie> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <4BAAB7D2-2084-4E76-8F96-1E8027F755E1@hopcount.ca> <20091216122135.GA14923@vacation.karoshi.com> <18821656DEAD41D88B07153DB6DAF657@ics.forth.gr> <20091217170037.GK43572@shinkuro.com> <4B2B51C3.7030601@dougbarton.us> <3F824140CABE44CC96F3EB7A6A7FC1CE@ics.forth.gr> <4B2B6475.8000202@dougbarton.us> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Doug Barton wrote: > That said, it's very important for everyone to be on the same page in > terms of what will be required on the technical end to solve this > problem. Absolutely. > The DNS protocol (and by extension, the existing software) > does not currently include what is needed to solve the problem of > making variants act "the same" as other domains. Even the simplest > change to the current protocol (the CNAME+DNAME idea) would require > changes to the authoritative server software of the parent domain > (whether the parent is a TLD or not). > > The benefit of the CLONE idea is that it can be implemented fairly > easily in the authoritative name servers of the parent and child zone > operators and this will give you "the same for every purpose except > DNSSEC" without depending on the resolvers being updated. I'm missing the motivation here. Surely CNAME+DNAME is simpler and less disruptive than introducing a new RRtype? Changes to authoritative server code is needed in either case, and existing DNSSEC behaviour for CNAME and DNAME can remain unchanged. Of course, a single RR is more elegant than a pair, but I can't see mere elegance as a compelling consideration. > The one technical solution that does exist right now is the "multiple > delegation" idea, which requires that the parent to delegate each > variant separately, and the child to somehow duplicate the zone data > for each variant. This idea would also work for everything except > DNSSEC for the variants, however it creates a comparatively large > maintenance problem for the child zone operator. Surely, correct (if troublesome) provisioning of multiple zones would avoid the "except DNSSEC" pitfall simply by having corresponding DS records for each delegation in the parent zone? Apart from that, it seems to me that the maintenance problem for parallel delegation grows with tree depth as n**2, where n is the typical (or locally effective) bundle size. Greek is too hard for me, so I'll just use n=2 and labels ending in "-o[u]r" for an example. For the domain name "flavour.colour.example.org" to be accessible independently of how the same word is represented at each of the third and fourth levels, four sets of RRs are needed: flavour.colour.example.com flavor.colour.example.com flavour.color.example.com flavor.color.example.com IIUC, Vaggelis mentioned that a bundle size of 4 is a typical requirement for supporting common usage in Greek. The NIC.IR web site indicates that the Dot-Iran service routinely accommodates a bundle size of 6. Ouch! Best regards, Niall O'Reilly From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 18 06:58:26 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83D9A3A6A6B; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 06:58:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.781 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.781 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.818, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qGS1Tqj1YSZz; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 06:58:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3157D3A6A68; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 06:58:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLe5y-000Fae-TH for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 14:46:18 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLe5r-000FZx-56 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 14:46:11 +0000 Received: from [10.31.200.160] (gatt.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.6]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBIEk5Lk010452; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 09:46:05 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <5D65FA09-336E-4BB9-A563-83C3717C94DC@rfc1035.com> <4B28F2D0.1040200@ucd.ie> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 09:33:43 -0500 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Edward Lewis Subject: Re: [dnsext] cloning zones Cc: Edward Lewis Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: At 13:53 -0800 12/17/09, Matthew Dempsky wrote: >... not an issue if the authoritative servers handle rewriting the >domain names dynamically. The consequence of switching to on-line, in-time generation of signatures by all authoritative servers means the following: A much more complex key management policy. For one, the private signing keys have to be sent to all servers (and securely, encrypted in transit). For another, now a compromise at any server will release the private key into the wild. A whole lot more cost. If you say "let's rely on an HSM to protect the key" then imagine buying a device in the $25K (US) range for each and every server you have. What about anycast - that really bumps up the count. Imagine the headache of getting through customs in addition to the number of units needed and the specialized installation required. A loss of independence. Finally, many registries make use of name servers they don't operate. If you switch to on-line in-time generation of signatures then you will be placing your private key into somebody else's machine and network. With such a set up, it would be impossible for a registry to claim any sort of service level guarantees. All of this was anticipated in the early days of the protocol design. Off-line signing has been an albatross [0], especially when considered in the extreme, but operationally it is better than the alternative. [0] see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albatross_(metaphor) for an explanation of albatross. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis NeuStar You can leave a voice message at +1-571-434-5468 As with IPv6, the problem with the deployment of frictionless surfaces is that they're not getting traction. From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Fri Dec 18 07:10:22 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 149053A6A97 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 07:10:22 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: <5VoThHpPsnYN> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char A9 hex): From: Genuine Pfizer \251 Retailer ; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 07:10:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from 54030DB6.catv.pool.telekom.hu (54030DB6.catv.pool.telekom.hu [84.3.13.182]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD3AB3A6A95 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 07:10:18 -0800 (PST) From: Genuine Pfizer © Retailer To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Special 80% discount for customer dnsext-archive on all Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091218151018.DD3AB3A6A95@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 07:10:18 -0800 (PST) Newsletter If you are unable to see the message below, click here to view.

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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Fri Dec 18 07:12:32 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 105873A6A95 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 07:12:32 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char A9 hex): From: Genuine Pfizer \251 Retailer ; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 07:12:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from 54030DB6.catv.pool.telekom.hu (54030DB6.catv.pool.telekom.hu [84.3.13.182]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD9933A69E8 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 07:12:28 -0800 (PST) From: Genuine Pfizer © Retailer To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Special 80% discount for customer dnsext-archive on all Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091218151228.BD9933A69E8@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 07:12:28 -0800 (PST) Newsletter If you are unable to see the message below, click here to view.

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 18 07:44:37 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA2F228C0DB; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 07:44:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.827 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.827 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.772, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JsI5SqJlL5JO; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 07:44:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0D2D3A6AA1; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 07:44:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLepR-000KCV-Rk for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 15:33:17 +0000 Received: from [193.227.124.2] (helo=mx01.bfk.de) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLepL-000KBm-Qg for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 15:33:12 +0000 Received: from mx00.int.bfk.de ([10.119.110.2]) by mx01.bfk.de with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) id 1NLepG-0005Z4-UQ; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 15:33:06 +0000 Received: by bfk.de with local id 1NLepH-0000P6-RH; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 15:33:07 +0000 To: Niall O'Reilly Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] making one zone/domain act like another References: <202705b0912141345t25f07433oc67e1a0f024b3a7d@mail.gmail.com> <200912142233.nBEMXfuw022129@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <202705b0912141630p675234b1p6c324d2cef1ceeac@mail.gmail.com> <4B26E1E3.2030108@gmail.com> <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <82aaxjjkg7.fsf@mid.bfk.de> <4B28E9DE.9060802@ucd.ie> From: Florian Weimer Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 15:33:07 +0000 In-Reply-To: <4B28E9DE.9060802@ucd.ie> (Niall O'Reilly's message of "Wed\, 16 Dec 2009 14\:08\:30 +0000") Message-ID: <82zl5gxpos.fsf@mid.bfk.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: * Niall O'Reilly: >> I think it is a bit hard to explain that you can send mail to >> , but you cannot put mx.xn-1234.example into >> the zone file (assuming that xn-1234 is not the canonical encoding). >> But maybe this is good enough. > > I expect that it would be. > > Besides, with only one zone to maintain, the (operational) rules > for what is allowed on the RHS of any RR are easy to write. What would that rule look like? Those I can think of don't work if there are Punycode labels in the zone. Saying that all servers must have ASCII-only names probably dos not meet the requirements. --=20 Florian Weimer BFK edv-consulting GmbH http://www.bfk.de/ Kriegsstra=DFe 100 tel: +49-721-96201-1 D-76133 Karlsruhe fax: +49-721-96201-99 From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 18 09:23:36 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC2F93A68E8; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 09:23:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.101, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_55=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iiNY8fVvxKfR; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 09:23:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20B863A6A8D; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 09:23:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLgQE-00059f-2Y for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 17:15:22 +0000 Received: from [168.61.5.27] (helo=harry.mail-abuse.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLgQ5-00059C-Tc for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 17:15:14 +0000 Received: from sjc-office-nat-214.mail-abuse.org (gateway1.sjc.mail-abuse.org [168.61.5.81]) by harry.mail-abuse.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AE97A94442; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 17:15:13 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <4B2BB8A1.9050105@mail-abuse.org> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 09:15:13 -0800 From: Douglas Otis User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.5) Gecko/20091204 Thunderbird/3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrew Draper CC: Doug Barton , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: We need a better problem statement References: <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <4BAAB7D2-2084-4E76-8F96-1E8027F755E1@hopcount.ca> <20091216122135.GA14923@vacation.karoshi.com.> <18821656DEAD41D88B07153DB6DAF657@ics.forth.gr> <20091217170037.GK43572@shinkuro.com> <4B2B51C3.7030601@dougbarton.us> <3F824140CABE44CC96F3EB7A6A7FC1CE@ics.forth.gr> <4B2B6475.8000202@dougbarton.us> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 12/18/09 3:38 AM, Andrew Draper wrote: > I thought I understood the clone idea but now I'm confused. > > How does it differ from eNAME, which as I understand it is pretty much > equivalent to CNAME+DNAME? CNAME+DNAME does not exist! CNAME per RFC1134 section 3.6.2 (name alias) ,--- If a CNAME RR is present at a node, no other data should be present; this ensures that the data for a canonical name and its aliases cannot be different. This rule also insures that a cached CNAME can be used without checking with an authoritative server for other RR types. '--- DNAME per RFC2672 Section 3 (subdomain redirection) ,--- If a DNAME RR is present at a node N, there may be other data at N (except a CNAME or another DNAME), but there MUST be no data at any descendant of N. ... Together with the rules for DNS zone authority [DNSCLR] it implies that DNAME and NS records can only coexist at the top of a zone which has only one node. '--- Rather than cloning zones, there would be less disruption using an interpreted redirection mechanism, in much the same way A-Labels are interpreted into unicode strings. Clients would need to amend the routine looking for A-Labels to also include redirection interpretations. It is not hard to see why Paul Hoffman and others don't want name restrictions and do not desire a redirection solution. As you can see from the CNAME and DNAME rules, it is not possible to have CNAME+DNAME. Just as A-label processing involves client side processing, a redirection convention can guide users to the "permitted" form of a name. Since DNAME is not always supported, only affects subdomains with CNAME as a downgraded response for subdomain nodes, there is no easy way to combine the functions of DNAME and CNAME. (IMHO, this is not likely, much like transforming DNS into adopting U-Labels.) A redirection mechanism could use: non-permitted-domain DNAME permitted-domain _alias.non-permitted-domain CNAME permited-domain It would be possible to define RR type PNAME to replace _alias label CNAME convention, but this would take time to adopt. A redirection mechanism might look like: non-permitted-domain DNAME permitted-domain non-permitted-domain PNAME permitted-domain _alias.non-permitted-domain CNAME permitted-domain (downgrade) Once client software understands this convention, non-permitted name forms would be transparently converted, with needed records at the top of the zone replicated from the permitted-domain. Those without upgraded clients will not fully benefit (status quo), but after upgrading their DNS consumer client, users will see permitted forms with reduced translational overhead, such as signatures and certificates. IMHO, dyanmic signing DNSSEC can not be defended. In addition, an authorization mechanism was previously added to guard against unexpected redirection and may need some consideration. -Doug From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 18 10:13:06 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A7BA3A63EB; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:13:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.091, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_55=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TOBBcRs3+E9W; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:13:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF98F3A68F6; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:12:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLhBA-000AVD-9f for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 18:03:52 +0000 Received: from [168.61.5.27] (helo=harry.mail-abuse.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLhB3-000AUY-7d for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 18:03:45 +0000 Received: from sjc-office-nat-214.mail-abuse.org (gateway1.sjc.mail-abuse.org [168.61.5.81]) by harry.mail-abuse.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4313A9443B; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 18:03:44 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <4B2BC400.7080004@mail-abuse.org> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:03:44 -0800 From: Douglas Otis User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.5) Gecko/20091204 Thunderbird/3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrew Draper CC: Doug Barton , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: We need a better problem statement References: <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <4BAAB7D2-2084-4E76-8F96-1E8027F755E1@hopcount.ca> <20091216122135.GA14923@vacation.karoshi.com.> <18821656DEAD41D88B07153DB6DAF657@ics.forth.gr> <20091217170037.GK43572@shinkuro.com> <4B2B51C3.7030601@dougbarton.us> <3F824140CABE44CC96F3EB7A6A7FC1CE@ics.forth.gr> <4B2B6475.8000202@dougbarton.us> <4B2BB8A1.9050105@mail-abuse.org> In-Reply-To: <4B2BB8A1.9050105@mail-abuse.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Some clarification: The following together is not possible: _alias.non-permitted CNAME permitted-domain non-permitted DNAME permitted-domain Only when a new RR type of PNAME would PNAME+DNAME be possible such as: non-permitted domain PNAME permitted-domain non-permitted domain DNAME permitted-domain As a downgrade to PNAME+DNAME, just CNAME could be used in conjunction with the _alias label, but this would require modified DNS servers. -Doug From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 18 10:19:58 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF2A43A63EB; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:19:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.452 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.452 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.147, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Mk9mlK9tF818; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:19:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBDA33A67F1; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:19:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLhKF-000BdL-Bt for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 18:13:15 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLhK8-000Bci-I0 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 18:13:08 +0000 Received: from valholl.ogud.com (nyttbox.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.4]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBIID6bE012118 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 13:13:07 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ogud@ogud.com) Message-Id: <200912181813.nBIID6bE012118@stora.ogud.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 13:11:05 -0500 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Olafur Gudmundsson/DNSEXT co-chair Subject: [dnsext] FW: [BEHAVE] WGLC for translation documents (6 documents) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: I would like to draw your attention to this WGLC that just started in behave, some of these documents have DNS implications. Please send comments to the Behave mailing list. Olafur >-----Original Message----- >From: behave-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:behave-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >Dan Wing >Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 11:47 PM >To: behave@ietf.org >Cc: behave-chairs@tools.ietf.org >Subject: [BEHAVE] WGLC for translation documents (6 documents) > >We appear ready to start the working group last call for our set of IPv6/IPv4 >translation documents. This is a two-week WGLC. > >We need 5 reviewers to say a document is ready before we will forward the >documents to the IESG. A few people have already volunteered, but we need >more! Please see http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/behave/trac/wiki/WikiStart. >If you are already reading the document, this is easy -- just email the chairs >after your review. > >The documents starting WGLC are: > >http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-framework-04 >http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-xlate-05 >http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-xlate-stateful-07 >http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-behave-dns64-05 >http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-behave-address-format-03 >http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-behave-ftp64-00 > >This is a two week WGLC finishing on December 31. Please send substantive >review comments to behave@ietf.org and (if possible) send editorial comments >only to the authors at DRAFTNAME@tools.ietf.org. > >Thanks, >-Dan and Dave From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 18 11:00:36 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D50F13A69A1; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:00:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.161 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.161 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.438, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P3EOSqLJWs1u; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:00:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 160C33A6973; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:00:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLht8-000Euh-3b for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 18:49:18 +0000 Received: from [193.1.169.34] (helo=dakota.ucd.ie) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLht1-000Eu3-Rx for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 18:49:12 +0000 Received: from conversion-daemon.dakota.ucd.ie by dakota.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-2.05 (built Apr 28 2005)) id <0KUV002012WEOD00@dakota.ucd.ie> (original mail from Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie) for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 18:49:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.0.1.177] (bark.no8.be [83.141.81.52]) by dakota.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-2.05 (built Apr 28 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0KUV006ZE2XWI000@dakota.ucd.ie>; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 18:49:08 +0000 (GMT) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 18:49:08 +0000 From: Niall O'Reilly Subject: Re: [dnsext] making one zone/domain act like another In-reply-to: <82zl5gxpos.fsf@mid.bfk.de> To: Florian Weimer Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie Message-id: <4B2BCEA4.9020708@ucd.ie> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <202705b0912141345t25f07433oc67e1a0f024b3a7d@mail.gmail.com> <200912142233.nBEMXfuw022129@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <202705b0912141630p675234b1p6c324d2cef1ceeac@mail.gmail.com> <4B26E1E3.2030108@gmail.com> <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <82aaxjjkg7.fsf@mid.bfk.de> <4B28E9DE.9060802@ucd.ie> <82zl5gxpos.fsf@mid.bfk.de> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Florian Weimer wrote: > * Niall O'Reilly: >> Besides, with only one zone to maintain, the (operational) rules >> for what is allowed on the RHS of any RR are easy to write. > > What would that rule look like? > > Those I can think of don't work if there are Punycode labels in the > zone. Saying that all servers must have ASCII-only names probably dos > not meet the requirements. I may be overlooking something, but I meant that whatever rules apply today would still be appropriate. Without variants, Punycode labels can occur already in a zone, even at the apex. This doesn't involve any special problems for RRtypes whose RDATA (RHS) is constrained. Adding variants in parallel by some yet-to-be-defined "full" aliasing method (for example, CLONE or CNAME+DNAME) doesn't introduce a need for new rules for RDATA-constrained RRtypes. The constraint is unchanged: reference to a redirected node is not allowed. If I'm lost in the land of wishful thinking, I'll be happy if someone will bring me back to reality. Best regards, Niall O'Reilly From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 18 11:11:48 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 043803A67F1; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:11:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.224 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.224 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.375, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ogTTrYI1RO9Z; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:11:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCF8A3A6AB4; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:11:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLi4r-000GCL-4z for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 19:01:25 +0000 Received: from [193.1.169.34] (helo=dakota.ucd.ie) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLi4j-000GBG-Jg for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 19:01:17 +0000 Received: from conversion-daemon.dakota.ucd.ie by dakota.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-2.05 (built Apr 28 2005)) id <0KUV00A013AKEO00@dakota.ucd.ie> (original mail from Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie) for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 19:01:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.0.1.177] (bark.no8.be [83.141.81.52]) by dakota.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-2.05 (built Apr 28 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0KUV006ZJ3I3I000@dakota.ucd.ie>; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 19:01:16 +0000 (GMT) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 19:01:15 +0000 From: Niall O'Reilly Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: We need a better problem statement In-reply-to: <4B2B7956.5060005@ucd.ie> To: Doug Barton Cc: Vaggelis Segredakis , 'Andrew Sullivan' , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Message-id: <4B2BD17B.6050901@ucd.ie> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <4BAAB7D2-2084-4E76-8F96-1E8027F755E1@hopcount.ca> <20091216122135.GA14923@vacation.karoshi.com> <18821656DEAD41D88B07153DB6DAF657@ics.forth.gr> <20091217170037.GK43572@shinkuro.com> <4B2B51C3.7030601@dougbarton.us> <3F824140CABE44CC96F3EB7A6A7FC1CE@ics.forth.gr> <4B2B6475.8000202@dougbarton.us> <4B2B7956.5060005@ucd.ie> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Niall O'Reilly wrote: > Apart from that, it seems to me that the maintenance problem for > parallel delegation grows with tree depth as n**2, where n is > the typical (or locally effective) bundle size. I made a mistake; this was the wrong analysis. The maintenance problem for multiple parallel delegation must grow with the product over all the labels of the "variant-fanout" at each label. For uniform fanout (n) at each of (m) labels, the scaling factor for the most subordinate child zone is n**m. Best regards, Niall O'Reilly From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 18 11:31:57 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0F723A69FD; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:31:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DZ1yaRE23QIu; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:31:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF2E63A6829; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:31:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLiQ3-000IWy-7r for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 19:23:19 +0000 Received: from [209.85.160.42] (helo=mail-pw0-f42.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLiPv-000IWc-SD for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 19:23:11 +0000 Received: by pwj9 with SMTP id 9so2215621pwj.1 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:23:11 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.115.38.32 with SMTP id q32mr2803307waj.8.1261164191488; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:23:11 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <5D65FA09-336E-4BB9-A563-83C3717C94DC@rfc1035.com> <4B28F2D0.1040200@ucd.ie> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:23:11 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [dnsext] cloning zones From: Matthew Dempsky To: Edward Lewis Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 6:33 AM, Edward Lewis wrote: > A much more complex key management policy. =A0For one, the private signin= g > keys have to be sent to all servers (and securely, encrypted in transit). > =A0For another, now a compromise at any server will release the private k= ey > into the wild. How do people handle SSL key management? DNSSEC doesn't obviate the need for security at the HTTP layer (or others). Unless you propose HTTP switches to an offline signature model too, sites are going to need key management policies that can handle this anyway. > A whole lot more cost. =A0If you say "let's rely on an HSM to protect the= key" > then imagine buying a device in the $25K (US) range for each and every > server you have. =A0What about anycast - that really bumps up the count. > =A0Imagine the headache of getting through customs in addition to the num= ber > of units needed and the specialized installation required. It doesn't have to be that expensive. A reasonable server can handle upwards of 40,000 Diffie-Hellman computations per second (an AMD Phenom II X4 955 at 3200 MHz has 4 cores and can compute a Curve25519 shared secret in under 300,000 cycles), and the results can be easily cached to significantly increase capacity in the common case. The extra cost of encrypting and authenticating a ~512 byte packet is then negligible. > A loss of independence. =A0Finally, many registries make use of name serv= ers > they don't operate. =A0If you switch to on-line in-time generation of > signatures then you will be placing your private key into somebody else's > machine and network. =A0With such a set up, it would be impossible for a > registry to claim any sort of service level guarantees. A lot of sites use third party hosting services for running their web servers, and don't seem to have issues with uploading their SSL private keys for HTTPS. Do you run all your own fiber when offering service level guarantees to customers too? > All of this was anticipated in the early days of the protocol design. > Off-line signing has been an albatross [0], especially when considered in > the extreme, but operationally it is better than the alternative. I'll believe this once Google and Akamai start using DNSSEC. From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Fri Dec 18 11:41:32 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AFDB3A6AD9 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:41:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -81.76 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-81.76 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MANGLED_OFF=2.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, SARE_RECV_VIRTUACOMBR=1.193, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LpXIouSzYqoq for ; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:41:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from c9533933.virtua.com.br (c9533933.virtua.com.br [201.83.57.51]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BCBC3A6AD8 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:41:30 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA Store To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Member dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org get 80% 0FF on ALL Pfizer. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091218194130.9BCBC3A6AD8@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:41:30 -0800 (PST) News Today
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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Fri Dec 18 11:42:43 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C40E3A69D3 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:42:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -81.76 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-81.76 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MANGLED_OFF=2.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, SARE_RECV_VIRTUACOMBR=1.193, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id roGoT+smzhwr for ; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:42:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from c9533933.virtua.com.br (c9533933.virtua.com.br [201.83.57.51]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EABA73A68FA for ; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:42:41 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA Store To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Member dnsext-archive@ietf.org get 80% 0FF on ALL Pfizer. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091218194241.EABA73A68FA@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:42:41 -0800 (PST) News Today
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 18 12:10:07 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 759D03A69D5; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 12:10:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.888 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.888 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.711, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M0NxhrUJhyxk; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 12:10:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAD233A69E9; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 12:10:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLiya-000MW1-26 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 19:59:00 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLiyT-000MTG-Py for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 19:58:54 +0000 Received: from [0.0.0.0] (ns.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.6]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBIJwf1a013057; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 14:58:42 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <5D65FA09-336E-4BB9-A563-83C3717C94DC@rfc1035.com> <4B28F2D0.1040200@ucd.ie> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 14:50:32 -0500 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Edward Lewis Subject: Re: [dnsext] cloning zones Cc: Edward Lewis Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: At 11:23 -0800 12/18/09, Matthew Dempsky wrote: >It doesn't have to be that expensive. ... The extra cost of encrypting >and authenticating a ~512 byte packet is then negligible. The issue isn't performance of the crypto. If I need to generate 1 signature an hour and I am implementing FIPS 140-2 level 4, I still need a (1) box. >A lot of sites use third party hosting services for running their web >servers, and don't seem to have issues with uploading their SSL >private keys for HTTPS. The market for third party hosting services for HTTP and DNS are rather different. >Do you run all your own fiber when offering service level guarantees >to customers too? No. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis NeuStar You can leave a voice message at +1-571-434-5468 As with IPv6, the problem with the deployment of frictionless surfaces is that they're not getting traction. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 18 13:09:14 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5540E3A6900; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 13:09:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.971 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.971 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.028, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_55=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W6YzauVWXAjx; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 13:09:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 859423A68CB; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 13:09:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLjvl-0003R5-Ta for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 21:00:09 +0000 Received: from [193.1.169.34] (helo=dakota.ucd.ie) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLjvc-0003Nm-Rp for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 21:00:01 +0000 Received: from conversion-daemon.dakota.ucd.ie by dakota.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-2.05 (built Apr 28 2005)) id <0KUV00M018X2I000@dakota.ucd.ie> (original mail from Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie) for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 20:59:59 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.0.1.177] (bark.no8.be [83.141.81.52]) by dakota.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-2.05 (built Apr 28 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0KUV00A0Y8ZYCL00@dakota.ucd.ie>; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 20:59:59 +0000 (GMT) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 20:59:58 +0000 From: Niall O'Reilly Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: We need a better problem statement In-reply-to: <4B2BB8A1.9050105@mail-abuse.org> To: Douglas Otis Cc: Andrew Draper , Doug Barton , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie Message-id: <4B2BED4E.8060800@ucd.ie> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <4BAAB7D2-2084-4E76-8F96-1E8027F755E1@hopcount.ca> <20091216122135.GA14923@vacation.karoshi.com> <18821656DEAD41D88B07153DB6DAF657@ics.forth.gr> <20091217170037.GK43572@shinkuro.com> <4B2B51C3.7030601@dougbarton.us> <3F824140CABE44CC96F3EB7A6A7FC1CE@ics.forth.gr> <4B2B6475.8000202@dougbarton.us> <4B2BB8A1.9050105@mail-abuse.org> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Douglas Otis wrote: > On 12/18/09 3:38 AM, Andrew Draper wrote: >> I thought I understood the clone idea but now I'm confused. >> >> How does it differ from eNAME, which as I understand it is pretty much >> equivalent to CNAME+DNAME? > > CNAME+DNAME does not exist! I'm pretty sure no-one believes otherwise. > CNAME per RFC1134 section 3.6.2 (name alias) > ,--- > If a CNAME RR is present at a node, no other data should be > present; this ensures that the data for a canonical name and its aliases > cannot be different. This rule also insures that a cached CNAME can be > used without checking with an authoritative server for other RR types. > '--- All well and good, but that doesn't actually preclude DNAME, which carries data not for the node itself, but only for the descendants of that node. > DNAME per RFC2672 Section 3 (subdomain redirection) > ,--- > If a DNAME RR is present at a node N, there may be other data at N > (except a CNAME or another DNAME), but there MUST be no data at > any descendant of N. I believe that this specification (which I admit is the only one we have at present) is excessively conservative. Exclusion of another DNAME is, of course, necessary in order to accommodate the intrinsic semantics of DNAME. Exclusion of CNAME appears to stem from overlooking the absence of any semantic conflict between CNAME and DNAME at the same node. My reading of sections 4.1 and 4.2 of RFC2672 leads me to believe that an authoritative or resolving server whose algorithm matches these sections will give the same results even if the prohibition of CNAME and DNAME at the same node is removed. It seems to me that only two things are needed to make CNAME+DNAME not only possible, but allowed. These are: appropriate text in the forthcoming successor to RFC2672, and adjustment of the zone-integrity checking performed by authoritative server codes. As ever, I may have missed something. Best regards, Niall O'Reilly From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 18 16:50:45 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02EC93A692F; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 16:50:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.915 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.915 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.084, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_55=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wBrr1Zfv8xA7; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 16:50:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB3663A68FF; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 16:50:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLnLz-0001cd-Vf for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 00:39:27 +0000 Received: from [168.61.5.27] (helo=harry.mail-abuse.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLnLt-0001c8-B3 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 00:39:21 +0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (gateway1.sjc.mail-abuse.org [168.61.5.81]) by harry.mail-abuse.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6E02A9443B; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 00:39:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: We need a better problem statement Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Douglas Otis In-Reply-To: <4B2BED4E.8060800@ucd.ie> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 16:39:20 -0800 Cc: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org WG" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0078AD40-90E2-47D6-BE54-9356709C3B34@mail-abuse.org> References: <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <4BAAB7D2-2084-4E76-8F96-1E8027F755E1@hopcount.ca> <20091216122135.GA14923@vacation.karoshi.com> <18821656DEAD41D88B07153DB6DAF657@ics.forth.gr> <20091217170037.GK43572@shinkuro.com> <4B2B51C3.7030601@dougbarton.us> <3F824140CABE44CC96F3EB7A6A7FC1CE@ics.forth.gr> <4B2B6475.8000202@dougbarton.us> <4B2BB8A1.9050105@mail-abuse.org> <4B2BED4E.8060800@ucd.ie> To: Niall O'Reilly X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Dec 18, 2009, at 12:59 PM, Niall O'Reilly wrote: > Douglas Otis wrote: >=20 >> CNAME per RFC1134 section 3.6.2 (name alias) >> ,--- >> If a CNAME RR is present at a node, no other data should be >> present; this ensures that the data for a canonical name and its = aliases >> cannot be different. This rule also insures that a cached CNAME can = be >> used without checking with an authoritative server for other RR = types. >> '--- > All well and good, but that doesn't actually preclude DNAME, > which carries data not for the node itself, but only for the > descendants of that node. DNAME was defined after CNAME. DNAME precludes concurrence with CNAME.=20= >> DNAME per RFC2672 Section 3 (subdomain redirection) >> ,--- >> If a DNAME RR is present at a node N, there may be other data at N >> (except a CNAME or another DNAME), but there MUST be no data at >> any descendant of N. >=20 > I believe that this specification (which I admit is the only > one we have at present) is excessively conservative. Exclusion > of another DNAME is, of course, necessary in order to > accommodate the intrinsic semantics of DNAME. Exclusion of CNAME > appears to stem from overlooking the absence of any semantic > conflict between CNAME and DNAME at the same node. Currently, no record unrelated to checking validity appears at a node = publishing a CNAME alias. Changing this will impact caching operations, = and muddle record sources. When the DNAME is at the top of the zone, = the zone will only contain one node, which could be handled by using the = same NS and A records for both zones. Even if a resolver overlooks a = non-compliant CNAME containing other resource records, CNAME semantics = indicate resources at this node are obtained from the alias target, = which is pointing to the wrong place when attempting to discover the = DNAME. So there are semantic conflicts, where depending upon how caching = is handled, a good chance things will get muddled even when by some off = chance things appear to be working. > My reading of sections 4.1 and 4.2 of RFC2672 leads me to > believe that an authoritative or resolving server whose > algorithm matches these sections will give the same results even > if the prohibition of CNAME and DNAME at the same node is > removed. You have failed to describe a method for transitioning to this new = paradigm. Changing text within an RFC will not cause all names servers = to be instantly upgraded, nor should it be assumed both caching and = authoritative servers will be upgraded simultaneously. > It seems to me that only two things are needed to make > CNAME+DNAME not only possible, but allowed. These are: > appropriate text in the forthcoming successor to RFC2672, and > adjustment of the zone-integrity checking performed by > authoritative server codes. Adding redirection semantics to routines translating A-labels would = allow DNAME and an _alias label within the alias zone to support full = zone redirection. Access to this label could be optimized by defining = the equivalent of _alias IN CNAME target as a new PNAME target (P for = preferred name). The authoritative server could be tweaked to generate = the _alias label target response without following the DNAME path using = the PNAME information as a method to improve performance when both zones = are signed by the same entity. By moving redirection semantics to the = client, redirection can start occurring at any time, letting people type = what they want. Waiting for all DNS servers to be upgraded will take = decades. The _alias & PNAME technique could be ready in months. :^) This might mean more work for those maintaining A-label translation = routines, so be nice to Paul Hoffman. :^) -Doug= From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Sat Dec 19 00:29:27 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B16A3A6817 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 00:29:27 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 00:29:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from host89-251-107-30.hnet.ru (host89-251-107-30.hnet.ru [89.251.107.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 85EC73A69AB for ; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 00:29:17 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Personal 71% off To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 091218-1, 18.12.2009), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Message-Id: <20091219082918.85EC73A69AB@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 00:29:17 -0800 (PST)
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Sat Dec 19 04:04:48 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 752573A6A47 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 04:04:48 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char A9 hex): From: Genuine Pfizer \251 Retailer ; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 04:04:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from lbrat1-6-80.wmx.sk (lbrat1-6-80.wmx.sk [85.237.6.80]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5F963A683F for ; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 04:04:40 -0800 (PST) From: Genuine Pfizer © Retailer To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Special 80% discount for customer dnsext-archive on all Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091219120440.B5F963A683F@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 04:04:40 -0800 (PST) Newsletter If you are unable to see the message below, click here to view.

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sat Dec 19 05:30:07 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 507663A67F2; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 05:30:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.974 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.974 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_55=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g3soc8QSkK6W; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 05:30:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 794CD3A67E3; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 05:30:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLzAo-000Kiq-An for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 13:16:42 +0000 Received: from [193.1.169.37] (helo=cali.ucd.ie) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NLzAi-000KiK-8Z for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 13:16:36 +0000 Received: from conversion-daemon.cali.ucd.ie by cali.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.03 (built Sep 22 2005)) id <0KUW00601HN92U00@cali.ucd.ie> (original mail from Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie) for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 13:16:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.0.1.177] (bark.no8.be [83.141.81.52]) by cali.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.03 (built Sep 22 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0KUW0031YI7LZT10@cali.ucd.ie>; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 13:16:33 +0000 (GMT) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 13:16:32 +0000 From: Niall O'Reilly Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: We need a better problem statement In-reply-to: <0078AD40-90E2-47D6-BE54-9356709C3B34@mail-abuse.org> To: Douglas Otis Cc: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org WG" , Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie Message-id: <4B2CD230.50706@ucd.ie> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <4BAAB7D2-2084-4E76-8F96-1E8027F755E1@hopcount.ca> <20091216122135.GA14923@vacation.karoshi.com> <18821656DEAD41D88B07153DB6DAF657@ics.forth.gr> <20091217170037.GK43572@shinkuro.com> <4B2B51C3.7030601@dougbarton.us> <3F824140CABE44CC96F3EB7A6A7FC1CE@ics.forth.gr> <4B2B6475.8000202@dougbarton.us> <4B2BB8A1.9050105@mail-abuse.org> <4B2BED4E.8060800@ucd.ie> <0078AD40-90E2-47D6-BE54-9356709C3B34@mail-abuse.org> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Douglas Otis wrote: > On Dec 18, 2009, at 12:59 PM, Niall O'Reilly wrote: > DNAME was defined after CNAME. DNAME precludes concurrence with CNAME. We seem to agree on this. It follows that RFC1134 is not pertinent to a discussion of concurrent CNAME and DNAME. > Currently, no record unrelated to checking validity appears at a node publishing > a CNAME alias. Changing this will impact caching operations, and muddle record > sources. When the DNAME is at the top of the zone, the zone will only contain > one node, which could be handled by using the same NS and A records for both > zones. Even if a resolver overlooks a non-compliant CNAME containing other > resource records, CNAME semantics indicate resources at this node are obtained > from the alias target, which is pointing to the wrong place when attempting to > discover the DNAME. I believe that this interpretation conflicts with how the algorithm is specified in RFC2672. > So there are semantic conflicts, where depending upon how > caching is handled, a good chance things will get muddled even when by some off > chance things appear to be working. > >> My reading of sections 4.1 and 4.2 of RFC2672 leads me to >> believe that an authoritative or resolving server whose >> algorithm matches these sections will give the same results even >> if the prohibition of CNAME and DNAME at the same node is >> removed. > > You have failed to describe a method for transitioning to this new paradigm. I don't see a "new paradigm" here. As I see it, if existing codes implement the algorithm specified in RFC2672 _as it stands_, CNAME+DNAME is not only "wire-impact-free" (as Paul Vixie pointed out) but also "algorithm-impact-free". What is new is not the paradigm, but our understanding thereof. This would hardly be the first occasion of such a shift in collective understanding in regard to some aspect of the DNS. Otherwise (specifically, if there is divergence between what is actually implemented in code and _my reading_ of how the algorithm is specified in RFC2672), we face an operational question rather than one of protocol or of algorithm. If so, the material discussion regarding transition belongs on another list. The questions for this list are whether such a development in our collective understanding of RFC2672 is actually reasonable and useful, and (if so) how best this development should be documented. The 2672bis draft comes to mind. > Changing text within an RFC will not cause all names servers to be instantly > upgraded, nor should it be assumed both caching and authoritative servers > will be upgraded simultaneously. I believe that this is covered by my last few paragraphs. In summary: either this is not an issue, or else there is a latent fault in how existing codes implement RFC2672. Best regards, Niall O'Reilly From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sat Dec 19 09:30:02 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0DDF3A6B35; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 09:30:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8+J6JK2uJMXK; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 09:30:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E002F3A69E8; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 09:30:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NM31h-000J9H-UY for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 17:23:33 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NM31c-000J8O-4t for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 17:23:28 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (unknown [12.189.125.88]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0CA7C2FE8CE7 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 17:23:26 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 12:23:25 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-registry-fixes and draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-alg-allocation WGLC announcement Message-ID: <20091219172324.GG52726@shinkuro.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Dear colleagues, This email begins a three week Working Group Last Call for the two documents draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-alg-allocation-00.txt and draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-registry-fixes-01.txt. We are calling these documents together because in our view they naturally complement one another. Please note that draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-alg-allocation-00.txt alters the way algorithm identifiers are assigned, and has a fail-safe provision in it to protect the number space as it starts to be depleted. It is particularly important that the WG decide whether that provision is a good one and, if so, if it is set at the right level. This WGLC will end at 17:00 EST on 2010-01-09. Participants are reminded that the WG's process rules require at least five people to say that they have read the document, and that they support it, before it can be forwarded to the IESG for publication. We have the list of volunteers who previously agreed to read this document, and if you don't perform the review as expected, we'll approach you directly. Participants are reminded that _ad hominem_ attacks are not permitted, and that they should confine themsleves to the technical merits of the drafts. I will be the document shepherd for these drafts. Best regards, Andrew -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sat Dec 19 09:32:11 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EC403A69B7; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 09:32:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6YpqLoJUFviU; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 09:32:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA9873A6881; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 09:32:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NM30d-000J2L-V1 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 17:22:27 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NM30Y-000J1a-8R for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 17:22:22 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (unknown [12.189.125.88]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 874AF2FE8CE7 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 17:22:19 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 12:22:15 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] Re: draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify WGLC announcement Message-ID: <20091219172214.GF52726@shinkuro.com> References: <20091218184216.GF49362@shinkuro.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20091218184216.GF49362@shinkuro.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Dear colleagues, This mail initiates a three week Working Group Last Call for the WG work item, draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-12.txt. The last call will close at 17:00 EST on 2010-01-09. Please read the document and send your comments to the mailing list. This document has been through many revisions and has received quite a lot of attention, but it has lived a long time and really needs complete review. This is especially true because it discusses a very old part of the DNS specifications. Because this is a clarification document that purports to specify more completely the behaviour of existing functionality, it is particularly important that its correctness and completeness be evaluated by protocol experts and, especially, implementers. Please remember that DNSEXT has a policy that a document that has not received supportive review by at least five DNSEXT participants will not be sent to the IESG. The document has been around for a long time, and it would be a shame to let that work go to waste due to inadequate review. Especially in this case, I would very much like to see more than five supportive reviews. I will be the document shepherd for this draft. Participants are reminded that _ad hominem_ arguments are not permitted in DNSEXT, and are further reminded to confine themselves to the technical merits of the draft. Best regards, Andrew -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Sat Dec 19 09:33:35 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82D6C3A6892 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 09:33:35 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char A9 hex): From: Genuine Pfizer \251 Retailer ; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 09:33:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from chello089077150115.chello.pl (chello089077150115.chello.pl [89.77.150.115]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A98C3A681E for ; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 09:33:28 -0800 (PST) From: Genuine Pfizer © Retailer To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Special 80% discount for customer dnsext-archive on all Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091219173328.5A98C3A681E@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 09:33:28 -0800 (PST) Newsletter If you are unable to see the message below, click here to view.

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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Sat Dec 19 09:35:34 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC7AF3A6927 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 09:35:34 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: <9s1F7upyV6Nr> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char A9 hex): From: Genuine Pfizer \251 Retailer ; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 09:35:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from chello089077150115.chello.pl (chello089077150115.chello.pl [89.77.150.115]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 792963A681E for ; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 09:35:27 -0800 (PST) From: Genuine Pfizer © Retailer To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Special 80% discount for customer dnsext-archive on all Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091219173527.792963A681E@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 09:35:27 -0800 (PST) Newsletter If you are unable to see the message below, click here to view.

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sat Dec 19 12:30:19 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E93033A67F1; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 12:30:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_52=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vHygHejSPBKu; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 12:30:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E15CE3A67C0; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 12:30:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NM5op-000EcH-Ex for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 20:22:27 +0000 Received: from [204.14.89.4] (helo=mail2.fluidhosting.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NM5oe-000Ebo-A2 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 20:22:16 +0000 Received: (qmail 21569 invoked by uid 399); 19 Dec 2009 20:22:14 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO foreign.dougb.net) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTPAM; 19 Dec 2009 20:22:14 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Sender: dougb@dougbarton.us Message-ID: <4B2D35F9.4000908@dougbarton.us> Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 12:22:17 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20091206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Douglas Otis CC: Niall O'Reilly , "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org WG" Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: We need a better problem statement References: <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <4BAAB7D2-2084-4E76-8F96-1E8027F755E1@hopcount.ca> <20091216122135.GA14923@vacation.karoshi.com> <18821656DEAD41D88B07153DB6DAF657@ics.forth.gr> <20091217170037.GK43572@shinkuro.com> <4B2B51C3.7030601@dougbarton.us> <3F824140CABE44CC96F3EB7A6A7FC1CE@ics.forth.gr> <4B2B6475.8000202@dougbarton.us> <4B2BB8A1.9050105@mail-abuse.org> <4B2BED4E.8060800@ucd.ie> <0078AD40-90E2-47D6-BE54-9356709C3B34@mail-abuse.org> In-Reply-To: <0078AD40-90E2-47D6-BE54-9356709C3B34@mail-abuse.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D5B2F0FB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Douglas Otis wrote: > Adding redirection semantics to routines translating A-labels would > allow DNAME and an _alias label within the alias zone to support > full zone redirection. Perhaps I was in error in proposing the CLONE idea before there was any kind of consensus on the problem statement, and thereby driving the desire to reach a solution before understanding the problem. If so, I apologize. Meanwhile, my reading of the problem is that any solutions that make use of CNAMEs or DNAMEs are totally out of scope because they do not meet the desired goal of making the zones "the same." I'm pretty sure I understood Vaggelis well enough to believe that he at least is in agreement, it would be nice if we could hear from others who are knowledgeable about the problems as well. I would add that there seems to be a very deep-seated feeling among protocol people that CNAMEs are the answer to a lot of problems. The fact that more than one person has inserted their own idea of using CNAMEs into the CLONE description (which purposefully leaves them out) I think is evidence of this. Please try hard to get past the CNAME stuff. :) There are things you can do with a "real" zone that you cannot do with a DNAME'ed one today because of the CNAME synthesis. By definition this prevents the two zones from being considered "the same." Doug -- Improve the effectiveness of your Internet presence with a domain name makeover! http://SupersetSolutions.com/ From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sat Dec 19 12:44:16 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E7D93A6946; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 12:44:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.212 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.212 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.388, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lOS9ft2AW6mq; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 12:44:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D30F3A67F2; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 12:44:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NM60z-000FeV-5q for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 20:35:01 +0000 Received: from [204.14.89.4] (helo=mail2.fluidhosting.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NM60r-000FcX-V3 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 20:34:54 +0000 Received: (qmail 3396 invoked by uid 399); 19 Dec 2009 20:34:52 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO foreign.dougb.net) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTPAM; 19 Dec 2009 20:34:52 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Sender: dougb@dougbarton.us Message-ID: <4B2D38EF.9040307@dougbarton.us> Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 12:34:55 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20091206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Edward Lewis CC: Andrew Sullivan , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] cloning zones References: <200912142233.nBEMXfuw022129@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <202705b0912141630p675234b1p6c324d2cef1ceeac@mail.gmail.com> <4B26E1E3.2030108@gmail.com> <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <4B27F58D.1020902@dougbarton.us> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D5B2F0FB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Edward Lewis wrote: > At 12:46 -0800 12/15/09, Doug Barton wrote: > >> Furthermore, I am saying that there is no way to truly make what you >> and Ed seem to be describing (treat every variant as an exact, >> functional duplicate of the "front end" domain in every way, for every >> purpose, including DNSSEC) without changes to the resolvers, which is >> problematic politically as well. > > To put the cart and the horse in the right order, I am not stating how > this should work, I am repeating what I am hear from others in the > effort to understand the problem to solve. Ok, I'll take this at face value. However if you have ideas of your own it would be nice if you stated them explicitly. :) > First - I have been asking "what does it mean to make two DOMAINS act > the SAME." Not "why" and I really don't care about the motivation. In some cases (and I think that the IDN-related aspects of this problem are one) understanding the "why" helps to inform the technical solutions, even if all it does is help to bound the problem. For instance, I believe that you cannot really understand the "what" here without understanding the "why" because a significant number of the people involved in driving the _concept_ of IDNs forward (whether that is at the TLD level or lower) are not technical people (which is fine, don't get me wrong) and are not able to articulate "how" they want things to work in a way that DNS protocol nerds can grok. > Let's say we have X DNAME Y in the attempt to make all queries in the X > domain be the same as asking the Y domain. The query "X/IN/DNAME" will > of course not be the same as "Y/IN/DNAME" - and if you define > equivalence to exclude that difference you have succeeded (or are one > step closer). In concept, I agree with you, and if you s/DNAME/CLONE/ then I think you and I are basically in agreement on what the solution looks like. >> Enjoy kicking this one around, > > Maybe the problem is different. Maybe it's not a matter of copying data > space into another. Maybe what we need to define is some sort of query > redirection mechanism. CNAME and DNAME are the first two steps there. > The problem with anything in the data space is that old servers don't > know them. If the new types have no special processing, then it's okay, > we have that RFC on handling unknown types. > > The problem is the special processing. Maybe we should recognize that > and keep the data space only as dirty as it already is. There are way too many "maybe's" in those two paragraphs for me to do anything useful with. :) I have proposed a definition of the problem space (which all modesty aside I think I actually understand pretty well) and a solution that I think fits it. I'm happy to discuss either of those proposals further, or to work with you on a better definition of the problem. What I don't want to do is travel down a primrose path. Doug -- Improve the effectiveness of your Internet presence with a domain name makeover! http://SupersetSolutions.com/ From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Sat Dec 19 14:42:43 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8543D3A687D for ; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 14:42:43 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char A9 hex): From: Genuine Pfizer \251 Retailer ; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 14:42:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from chello089173068138.chello.sk (chello089173068138.chello.sk [89.173.68.138]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B0993A6818 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 14:42:35 -0800 (PST) From: Genuine Pfizer © Retailer To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Special 80% discount for customer dnsext-archive on all Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091219224236.2B0993A6818@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 14:42:35 -0800 (PST) Newsletter If you are unable to see the message below, click here to view.

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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Sat Dec 19 17:41:30 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F29B3A68F5 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 17:41:30 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: Pfizer \256 Customer Servi[...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -22.066 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-22.066 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hM8uQyFDjxM9 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 17:41:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from 173-16-115-79.client.mchsi.com (173-16-115-79.client.mchsi.com [173.16.115.79]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B8AA3A65A6 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 17:41:24 -0800 (PST) From: Pfizer ® Customer Service To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Special offer dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org receive 70% OFF on Pfizer. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091220014124.2B8AA3A65A6@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 17:41:24 -0800 (PST) Pfizer ® 80% OFF
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sat Dec 19 20:19:10 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93CE33A6849; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 20:19:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.955 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.955 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.044, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_52=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rT799KFbap3v; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 20:19:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BF833A6829; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 20:19:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMD6t-000BiZ-Oj for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 04:09:35 +0000 Received: from [204.14.89.4] (helo=mail2.fluidhosting.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMD6m-000BiA-LV for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 04:09:28 +0000 Received: (qmail 19727 invoked by uid 399); 20 Dec 2009 04:09:26 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO foreign.dougb.net) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTPAM; 20 Dec 2009 04:09:26 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Sender: dougb@dougbarton.us Message-ID: <4B2DA379.1070309@dougbarton.us> Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 20:09:29 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20091206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrew Draper , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: We need a better problem statement References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D5B2F0FB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Andrew Draper wrote: > Hi, > > I'm sending this off list but please feel free to post your response to > the list if you think that's useful. > > I'm not against your proposal, but I think you've done a poor job in > describing it and so it may not get the reception it deserves. > > I read your previous posts, I've also read this response several times > and think I understand the proposal a bit better. Let me try and > rephrase it to see whether I'm right... Thank you for taking the time to do this. I am choosing to reply to the list, so I've left the vast majority of your message intact. > Lets say the zones are set up as you suggest, and that the resolver is > asking for www.variant1.tld > > - The CLONE RR must not occur at the same location as any other RR At the same location, for the same label. Full stop. > - For new resolvers the authoritative server which holds the CLONE RR > (in the parent if the zone being cloned is at a zone cut) will send a > response which contains the CLONE RR itself and will then follow the > CLONE RR in a similar way to following DNAME. It can provide all the > DNSSEC information needed to validate the response. The difference > between this and following DNAME is that CLONE also redirects the name > being cloned. That's not exactly what I had in mind. First, I'm assuming some sort of signaling mechanism (TBD) for the resolver to indicate that it understands CLONE if it receives one. I am _guessing_ (and here I freely confess that my protocol fu is weak) that we can use the same mechanism as is used for "recursion desired." But assuming that the authoritative server knows that the resolver can understand CLONE, an example: The resolver queries for the A record for www.variant1.tld. In the authoritative server "variant1.tld" is set up as a CLONE of "domain.tld." The relevant output of a dig command would look like this: ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;www.variant1.tld. IN A ;; ANSWER SECTION: variant1.tld. 1800 IN CLONE domain.tld. ;; ADDITIONAL SECTION: www.domain.tld. 1800 IN A 1.2.3.4 Now I'm not overly concerned about which stuff goes in which sections, and DNSSEC complicates this of course, but hopefully you get the idea. The resolver can then return the answer "1.2.3.4" to the end user just as if the "real" domain was variant1.tld. What the resolver should do for subsequent queries in variant1.tld is open to discussion. I would argue that for the TTL of the CLONE record it should simply query for ${label}.domain.tld and handle the conversion internally, but I would not object to someone proposing a good reason that all queries should go out from the resolver as they came in. > [I think you may have described using rewriting in this case, but that > seems more complex than just sending the raw data to the resolver. The rewriting I am proposing in the authoritative server is only for resolvers that are not CLONE-aware. > - For old resolvers the parent authoritative server will rewrite the > query using the CLONE RR, answer it (returning a delegation to ns1.label > etc) and then rewrite the response back using the reverse of the CLONE > RR so that the response looks as if the zone file held the records: > variant1 NS ns1.label > NS ns2.label I'm sorry, I didn't quite follow that. What I'm suggesting for queries from non-CLONE resolvers is that the authoritative server return the answers AS IF the question had actually been for a label in domain.tld. I think there should also be some sort of "signal" (I'm purposely not using the term "flag" here, although that would work if it's protocol'ifically appropriate) that the response is actually CLONE'ed, but to the resolver (and thus to the end user) everything will look like variant1.tld is the real domain. So in the case of the parent authoritative server as you described above, the answer is yes, it would return a referral for variant1.tld that contained the answer as if the query had been for a label in domain.tld. > - The old resolver will next ask the child authoritative server for > www.variant.tld. If the child has been set up with variant.tld as a > different view onto label.tld then this works fine. If the child has a > zone file for variant.tld containing the same CLONE RR as was in the > parent then the clone rewriting happens here too, giving the same > behaviour. Yes! Two small adjustments, I think that there probably should be a definition of how the CLONE RR should work at the child but I'm not suggesting that we mandate the mechanism of how the child authoritative name server should accomplish the configuration part of it. The other thing that you mentioned here that I forgot to mention is that in the event that the child authoritative server is not CLONE-irific (but the parent is) they can still use the "point different zones at the same zone file trick." > - For resolvers that understand DNSSEC but not CLONE the response will > not validate. As you say, there is no hope for such resolvers if we add > new redirection types. Right again! > Have I got this right? You got almost all of it right, and your response helped me think through how to better explain the areas that did not match what I had in mind, so thank you again. Of course I'm not ruling out the possibility that what I have in mind is not actually a good idea. :) > If so then the cleverness is in reducing the amount of synthesis needed > in the authoritative server for old clients - it only needs to > synthesise one record which could be precomputed if necessary. I think that's right. I think that "the cleverness" would also be in the fact that 95% of the solution is in the hands of the parent authoritative servers, and (modulo DNSSEC) is fully compatible with older resolvers. > It could > be precomputed and signed if the tools supported it, which would make > the DNSSEC && !CLONE clients work too. This part I'm not sure matches what I have in mind. The CLONE record would be signed of course, but that's not going to help non-CLONE resolvers. CLONE resolvers would use the DNSSEC information in domain.tld to validate the answers. > The cost is that the child zone needs to publish multiple copies of the > same zone so it can support old clients, but that is partially > automated. Well, if the configuration happens in the config file only, you're not even dealing with multiple copies of the zone, just an internal "sleight of hand." If the software implementation requires a zone file my idea is that the zone file have just one record, although implementors would probably prefer that it have at least an SOA in addition to the CLONE RR. Doug -- Improve the effectiveness of your Internet presence with a domain name makeover! http://SupersetSolutions.com/ From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sat Dec 19 20:46:46 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 366F13A67AF; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 20:46:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.959 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.959 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.040, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_55=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jGvl-ka3VcPp; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 20:46:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E94773A659A; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 20:46:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMDYk-000Dqq-8Z for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 04:38:22 +0000 Received: from [204.14.89.4] (helo=mail2.fluidhosting.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMDYc-000DqV-CT for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 04:38:14 +0000 Received: (qmail 20613 invoked by uid 399); 20 Dec 2009 04:38:13 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO foreign.dougb.net) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTPAM; 20 Dec 2009 04:38:13 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Sender: dougb@dougbarton.us Message-ID: <4B2DAA38.5090504@dougbarton.us> Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 20:38:16 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20091206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Niall O'Reilly CC: Vaggelis Segredakis , 'Andrew Sullivan' , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: We need a better problem statement References: <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <4BAAB7D2-2084-4E76-8F96-1E8027F755E1@hopcount.ca> <20091216122135.GA14923@vacation.karoshi.com> <18821656DEAD41D88B07153DB6DAF657@ics.forth.gr> <20091217170037.GK43572@shinkuro.com> <4B2B51C3.7030601@dougbarton.us> <3F824140CABE44CC96F3EB7A6A7FC1CE@ics.forth.gr> <4B2B6475.8000202@dougbarton.us> <4B2B7956.5060005@ucd.ie> In-Reply-To: <4B2B7956.5060005@ucd.ie> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D5B2F0FB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Niall O'Reilly wrote: > Doug Barton wrote: >> The benefit of the CLONE idea is that it can be implemented fairly >> easily in the authoritative name servers of the parent and child zone >> operators and this will give you "the same for every purpose except >> DNSSEC" without depending on the resolvers being updated. > > I'm missing the motivation here. > Surely CNAME+DNAME is simpler and less disruptive > than introducing a new RRtype? I've made the assertion, which I am pretty confident is backed up by facts, that any solution for the problem of making two zones "the same" that involves [CD]NAMEs is a non-starter because it does not actually make them "the same," it makes them "ultimately give the same final answer most of the time if you follow the chain all the way to the end." Let me further demonstrate my claim by using an example that is not intended in any way to cast aspersions on anyone. I have hesitated to use this example previously because I don't want my incompetence in Chinese to detract from the argument, but here goes. Let's say that ICANN completes the IDN ccTLD process and now every user who registers domain.cn is also given "the same name" (whatever that means per registry policy) in . We'll call that . for short. Now let's add some more fun to the mix, and assume that in addition to the . variants the user is also "given" (or chooses to register, whatever) IDN versions of a name. So now we have the following: name.cn name. .cn . .cn . and all of those things should be "the same" from the standpoint of the sysadmin that just wants to set up an MX record. In other words, label MX 10 .. MUST work, and unless I'm missing something that will not work with a CNAME/DNAME solution. In my mind THAT is the motivation for a solution other than CNAME/DNAME. hth, Doug -- Improve the effectiveness of your Internet presence with a domain name makeover! http://SupersetSolutions.com/ From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Dec 20 01:26:29 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 323B43A6970; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 01:26:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5uOHYsZJz-wT; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 01:26:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67C823A696F; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 01:26:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMHqg-0009ve-1g for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 09:13:10 +0000 Received: from [89.16.176.221] (helo=mail.avalus.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMHqa-0009uZ-12 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 09:13:04 +0000 Received: from [192.168.100.114] (87-194-71-186.bethere.co.uk [87.194.71.186]) by mail.avalus.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D4365C566B9; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 09:13:00 +0000 (GMT) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 09:13:04 +0000 From: Alex Bligh Reply-To: Alex Bligh To: Doug Barton , Niall O'Reilly cc: Vaggelis Segredakis , 'Andrew Sullivan' , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, Alex Bligh Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: We need a better problem statement Message-ID: <071F0EC27FE7562C28621D19@nimrod.local> In-Reply-To: <4B2DAA38.5090504@dougbarton.us> References: <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <4BAAB7D2-2084-4E76-8F96-1E8027F755E1@hopcount.ca> <20091216122135.GA14923@vacation.karoshi.com> <18821656DEAD41D88B07153DB6DAF657@ics.forth.gr> <20091217170037.GK43572@shinkuro.com> <4B2B51C3.7030601@dougbarton.us> <3F824140CABE44CC96F3EB7A6A7FC1CE@ics.forth.gr> <4B2B6475.8000202@dougbarton.us> <4B2B7956.5060005@ucd.ie> <4B2DAA38.5090504@dougbarton.us> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: --On 19 December 2009 20:38:16 -0800 Doug Barton wrote: > label MX 10 .. > > MUST work, and unless I'm missing something that will not work with a > CNAME/DNAME solution. a) why won't it work for DNAME? Or more accurately, why isn't it compliant? I am assuming . DNAME CN. .CN. DNAME name.CN. and there are 2 'A' records for mail, because it's the MX specification that prevents you from pointing at something else, not the CNAME/DNAME spec, so inventing a 'CLONE' isn't going to help you there. b) actually, in 99.99% of cases, label MX 10 [cname] does work, even though it is not technically compliant. Far easier, I think, to remove an very ancient restriction which is derived from the days when some resolvers could not follow CNAME chains, than introduce another aliasing technique. I would bet none of said resolvers run on systems which support IDN at anyway. -- Alex Bligh From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Dec 20 07:53:36 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 188833A68A5; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 07:53:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.019 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.019 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.580, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UIfkoc0b6Yxi; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 07:53:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AF843A67E7; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 07:53:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMNuC-000Ltm-9R for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 15:41:12 +0000 Received: from [131.111.8.136] (helo=ppsw-6.csi.cam.ac.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMNu0-000LsD-1i for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 15:41:00 +0000 X-Cam-AntiVirus: no malware found X-Cam-SpamDetails: not scanned X-Cam-ScannerInfo: http://www.cam.ac.uk/cs/email/scanner/ Received: from hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.8.51]:54483) by ppsw-6.csi.cam.ac.uk (smtp.hermes.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.156]:25) with esmtpa (EXTERNAL:fanf2) id 1NMNtn-0006tY-L2 (Exim 4.70) (return-path ); Sun, 20 Dec 2009 15:40:47 +0000 Received: from fanf2 (helo=localhost) by hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk (hermes.cam.ac.uk) with local-esmtp id 1NMNtn-0000qU-GN (Exim 4.67) (return-path ); Sun, 20 Dec 2009 15:40:47 +0000 Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 15:40:47 +0000 From: Tony Finch X-X-Sender: fanf2@hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk To: Alex Bligh cc: Doug Barton , Niall O'Reilly , Vaggelis Segredakis , 'Andrew Sullivan' , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: We need a better problem statement In-Reply-To: <071F0EC27FE7562C28621D19@nimrod.local> Message-ID: References: <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <4BAAB7D2-2084-4E76-8F96-1E8027F755E1@hopcount.ca> <20091216122135.GA14923@vacation.karoshi.com> <18821656DEAD41D88B07153DB6DAF657@ics.forth.gr> <20091217170037.GK43572@shinkuro.com> <4B2B51C3.7030601@dougbarton.us> <3F824140CABE44CC96F3EB7A6A7FC1CE@ics.forth.gr> <4B2B6475.8000202@dougbarton.us> <4B2B7956.5060005@ucd.ie> <4B2DAA38.5090504@dougbarton.us> <071F0EC27FE7562C28621D19@nimrod.local> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (LSU 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Sun, 20 Dec 2009, Alex Bligh wrote: > > b) actually, in 99.99% of cases, label MX 10 [cname] does work, even though > it is not technically compliant. Far easier, I think, to remove an > very ancient restriction which is derived from the days when some > resolvers could not follow CNAME chains, than introduce another > aliasing technique. I would bet none of said resolvers run on systems > which support IDN at anyway. What about label NS cname? Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch http://dotat.at/ GERMAN BIGHT HUMBER: SOUTHWEST 5 TO 7. MODERATE OR ROUGH. SQUALLY SHOWERS. MODERATE OR GOOD. From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Sun Dec 20 10:35:09 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAB0E3A680A for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 10:35:09 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char A9 hex): From: Genuine Pfizer \251 Retailer ; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 10:35:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from cable201-232-132-18.epm.net.co (cable201-232-132-18.epm.net.co [201.232.132.18]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BF213A67A2 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 10:35:02 -0800 (PST) From: Genuine Pfizer © Retailer To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Special 80% discount for customer dnsext-archive on all Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091220183502.3BF213A67A2@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 10:35:02 -0800 (PST) Newsletter If you are unable to see the message below, click here to view.

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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Sun Dec 20 10:36:42 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E5833A680C for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 10:36:42 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char A9 hex): From: Genuine Pfizer \251 Retailer ; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 10:36:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from cable201-232-132-18.epm.net.co (cable201-232-132-18.epm.net.co [201.232.132.18]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D041D3A680A for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 10:36:34 -0800 (PST) From: Genuine Pfizer © Retailer To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Special 80% discount for customer dnsext-archive on all Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091220183634.D041D3A680A@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 10:36:34 -0800 (PST) Newsletter If you are unable to see the message below, click here to view.

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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Sun Dec 20 13:57:13 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 069433A6950 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 13:57:13 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char A9 hex): From: Genuine Pfizer \251 Retailer ; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 13:57:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from 60-27-207-82.pool.ukrtel.net (202-244-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net [92.113.244.202]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 514383A694D for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 13:57:04 -0800 (PST) From: Genuine Pfizer © Retailer To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Special 80% discount for customer dnsext-archive on all Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091220215705.514383A694D@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 13:57:04 -0800 (PST) Newsletter If you are unable to see the message below, click here to view.

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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Sun Dec 20 13:57:49 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0BA33A6941 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 13:57:49 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: <51NBIyc5-9Wa> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char A9 hex): From: Genuine Pfizer \251 Retailer ; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 13:57:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from 60-27-207-82.pool.ukrtel.net (202-244-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net [92.113.244.202]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6869E3A6900 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 13:57:42 -0800 (PST) From: Genuine Pfizer © Retailer To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Special 80% discount for customer dnsext-archive on all Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091220215742.6869E3A6900@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 13:57:42 -0800 (PST) Newsletter If you are unable to see the message below, click here to view.

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Dec 20 15:36:55 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42DCB3A67E4; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 15:36:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.400, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Da2xwyer1RUZ; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 15:36:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A0A23A679C; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 15:36:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMV9h-000C3R-D1 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 23:25:41 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::5] (helo=farside.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMV9b-000C1b-LS for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 23:25:35 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (drugs.dv.isc.org [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (not verified)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CA70E601C; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 23:25:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBKNP6bF071005; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 10:25:07 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200912202325.nBKNP6bF071005@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Tony Finch Cc: Alex Bligh , Doug Barton , "Niall O'Reilly" , Vaggelis Segredakis , "'Andrew Sullivan'" , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews References: <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <4BAAB7D2-2084-4E76-8F96-1E8027F755E1@hopcount.ca> <20091216122135.GA14923@vacation.karoshi.com> <18821656DEAD41D88B07153DB6DAF657@ics.forth.gr> <20091217170037.GK43572@shinkuro.com> <4B2B51C3.7030601@dougbarton.us> <3F824140CABE44CC96F3EB7A6A7FC1CE@ics.forth.gr> <4B2B6475.8000202@dougbarton.us> <4B2B7956.5060005@ucd.ie> <4B2DAA38.5090504@dougbarton.us> <071F0EC27FE7562C28621D19@nimrod.local> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: We need a better problem statement In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 20 Dec 2009 15:40:47 -0000." Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 10:25:06 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: In message , Tony F inch writes: > On Sun, 20 Dec 2009, Alex Bligh wrote: > > > > b) actually, in 99.99% of cases, label MX 10 [cname] does work, even though > > it is not technically compliant. Far easier, I think, to remove an > > very ancient restriction which is derived from the days when some > > resolvers could not follow CNAME chains, than introduce another > > aliasing technique. I would bet none of said resolvers run on systems > > which support IDN at anyway. > > What about label NS cname? It doesn't work. Think about glue and additional section processing rules. You don't follow CNAMEs when looking up records to put in the additional section. For CNAME to work one would have support returning CNAME's for glue *and* the addresses they ultimately refer to. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Dec 20 17:46:37 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C22363A690A; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 17:46:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.266 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.266 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.333, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id diAfFO2bTMsc; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 17:46:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5B083A6973; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 17:46:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMXEp-000OWV-8q for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 01:39:07 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::5] (helo=farside.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMXEj-000OVx-Mt for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 01:39:01 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (drugs.dv.isc.org [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (not verified)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE6BFE60A5 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 01:39:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBL1cwmg072057 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:38:58 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200912210138.nBL1cwmg072057@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews Subject: [dnsext] draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-12 Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:38:58 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: "missed to support this functionality" below doesn't read right. Possible replacements. "missed supporting this functionality" "failed to support this functionality" transfer to complete before the next could begin. RFC 1035 did not exclude this possibility, but legacy implementations missed to support this functionality. The remaining presence of such legacy implementations makes it necessary that new general purpose server implementation still provide options for gracefull fallback to the old behavior in their support of concurrent DNS transactions and AXFR sessions on a single TCP connection. Other than that I don't see any issues with the draft. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: mark@isc.org From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Sun Dec 20 22:48:07 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 825EA3A6902 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 22:48:07 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char A9 hex): From: Genuine Pfizer \251 Retailer ; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 22:48:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from 84-50-12-48-dsl.trt.estpak.ee (84-50-12-48-dsl.trt.estpak.ee [84.50.12.48]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF10F3A6828 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 22:47:59 -0800 (PST) From: Genuine Pfizer © Retailer To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Special 80% discount for customer dnsext-archive on all Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091221064759.BF10F3A6828@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 22:47:59 -0800 (PST) Newsletter If you are unable to see the message below, click here to view.

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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Sun Dec 20 22:49:16 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 541593A6992 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 22:49:16 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char A9 hex): From: Genuine Pfizer \251 Retailer ; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 22:49:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from 84-50-12-48-dsl.trt.estpak.ee (84-50-12-48-dsl.trt.estpak.ee [84.50.12.48]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A53F73A6828 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 22:49:08 -0800 (PST) From: Genuine Pfizer © Retailer To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Special 80% discount for customer dnsext-archive on all Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091221064908.A53F73A6828@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 22:49:08 -0800 (PST) Newsletter If you are unable to see the message below, click here to view.

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 21 01:46:56 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBD303A69DB; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 01:46:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.276 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.276 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.323, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XW7YJ8ZfdV+e; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 01:46:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E54833A685A; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 01:46:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMegu-000F7b-Ct for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 09:36:36 +0000 Received: from [193.1.169.37] (helo=cali.ucd.ie) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMegn-000F6k-NR for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 09:36:29 +0000 Received: from conversion-daemon.cali.ucd.ie by cali.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.03 (built Sep 22 2005)) id <0KUZ00D01WXX8Q00@cali.ucd.ie> (original mail from Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie) for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 09:36:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.0.1.177] (bark.no8.be [83.141.81.52]) by cali.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.03 (built Sep 22 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0KUZ00F7BXCQ8S00@cali.ucd.ie>; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 09:36:27 +0000 (GMT) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 09:36:26 +0000 From: Niall O'Reilly Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: We need a better problem statement In-reply-to: <4B2DAA38.5090504@dougbarton.us> To: Doug Barton Cc: Vaggelis Segredakis , 'Andrew Sullivan' , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie Message-id: <4B2F419A.2030906@ucd.ie> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <4BAAB7D2-2084-4E76-8F96-1E8027F755E1@hopcount.ca> <20091216122135.GA14923@vacation.karoshi.com> <18821656DEAD41D88B07153DB6DAF657@ics.forth.gr> <20091217170037.GK43572@shinkuro.com> <4B2B51C3.7030601@dougbarton.us> <3F824140CABE44CC96F3EB7A6A7FC1CE@ics.forth.gr> <4B2B6475.8000202@dougbarton.us> <4B2B7956.5060005@ucd.ie> <4B2DAA38.5090504@dougbarton.us> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Doug Barton wrote: > I've made the assertion, which I am pretty confident is backed up by > facts, that any solution for the problem of making two zones "the > same" that involves [CD]NAMEs is a non-starter because it does not > actually make them "the same," it makes them "ultimately give the same > final answer most of the time if you follow the chain all the way to > the end." I appreciate the trouble you're taking to make the distinction clear. I'm not convinced that "sameness" (rather than the weaker level of equivalence achievable with redirection) is the right target to be aiming for. This is really a question to be answered by for Vaggelis and those in other registries with similar requirements. I can see that a new RRtype which would cover node and descendants alike has the advantage of avoiding collisions with both documented and received semantics of existing RRtypes. The corresponding disadvantages are the need for new special processing and DNSSEC handling. > In my mind THAT is the motivation for a solution other than CNAME/DNAME. > > hth, It does. Thanks. Best regards, Niall O'Reilly From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Mon Dec 21 03:29:07 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C34A3A69FE for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 03:29:07 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Online Shop ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 03:29:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from p4FE89B32.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (p4FE89B32.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [79.232.155.50]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCC6F3A68D8 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 03:28:58 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Online Shop To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Valued customer dnsext-archive@ietf.org 80% OFF on Pfizer. Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20091221112858.CCC6F3A68D8@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 03:28:58 -0800 (PST) December 2009
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Mon Dec 21 03:29:21 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0B2D3A68D8 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 03:29:21 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Online Shop ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 03:29:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from p4FE89B32.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (p4FE89B32.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [79.232.155.50]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D8D528C0E3 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 03:29:14 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Online Shop To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Valued customer dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org 80% OFF on Pfizer. Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20091221112914.6D8D528C0E3@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 03:29:14 -0800 (PST) December 2009
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 21 03:33:01 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F35283A68B1; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 03:33:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.012 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.012 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.987, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_55=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4nSBvxxeoL2O; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 03:33:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 137A73A6862; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 03:33:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMgNE-0001Xs-33 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:24:24 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMgN6-0001Wu-AB for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:24:16 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0C4DA32B5 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:24:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] zone clones X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:24:15 +0000 Message-ID: <22224.1261394655@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: if the problem statement was "how can i make these clone names work as e-mail and web addresses" then something involving CNAME could work, even something like CNAME+DNAME, or ENAME which would mean CNAME+DNAME. however, if these clone names would only work as application layer QNAMEs and not as intermediate QNAMEs (like MX targets and NS targets) then the clone names would always be second class. since my working problem statement is "how can i make these clone names work everywhere a normal first class name would work" then nothing involving CNAME will work and it's going to take some kind of delegation and some kind of zone service. i view the added DNSSEC load of signing the clone names as an economics problem, solveable in silicon, and not a concern. however, to be truly first class names, all updates to any clone must be reflected in the other clones. so, some kind of on-wire support will be needed at the zone apex, in the zone's authority servers. i take it as a given that any cloned zone will be able to upgrade all of its authority servers on a flag day, and that a mix of upgraded and nonupgraded servers at a zone apex is an explicit nongoal. i also take it as a given that any solution requiring that all applications and/or stub resolvers have to be upgraded before the first zone can be cloned is off the table. so, no CNAMEs (synthetic or otherwise), no mix of old and new authority servers, and no changes to stubs, apps, or forwarders. the (new, upgraded once we figure out what they're supposed to do) apex authority servers will have to be able to look at the zone content, not just out-of-band configuration, to learn that a zone is part of a group of clones, and to learn the identities of the other clones. on the primary master, an update to one has to be treated as an update to all. while it would be nice if it was possible to hold the content of the zone only once and to serve it under multiple apexes, this would require late binding for relative names (and thus a new AXFR specification) and would require some very careful programming if DNSSEC was in use. so, each clone's content will be transferred and stored independently, and the primary master will be responsible for reflecting updates and/or "zone reloads" at all clone apexes. i'm contemplating something like a "clone group" or "zone clone group" where the apex would have, in addition to the normal SOA and NS RRsets, a new CLONE RRset (not the same as what doug barton's been proposing but using the same RR name he's been talking about). the authority server would see the CLONE RRset at the zone apex and know to populate its zone table with all clone names not just the original zone's name. changes to the CLONE RRset would result in changes to every authority's zone table. every CLONE would have its own IXFR/AXFR. the one primary master would serve all clones of the zone. so, the current state of my thinking about this would look like multiple delegation NS RRsets, not all of which need be in the same parent zone, and then a corresponding CLONE RRset at the zone apex, telling the primary master to reflect all updates and reloads across not just the zone's apex but the clone-set's apexes as well, and telling both the primary master and all secondary servers to populate their zone tables with not just the zone apex but all clones as well, and telling the secondary servers to do separate IXFR/AXFR separately for the zone apex and for each clone. atomicity of clone content would not be guaranteed. it would be possible for the "base zone" serial number to increment, and for the primary server to take some period of time reflecting this change across the "clone group", and for some secondary servers to have pulled the "base zone" deltas over and to have pulled some of the "clone group" deltas over but not all of them yet, and for some "clone zones" to have lower serial numbers for some period. there would be no new support for clone groups in the delegating zones, since not all clones would be delegated from the same parent. these would look like parallel NS RRsets. the only way to know whether a zone is a clone would be to query for the CLONE RRset at that zone's apex and to see whether the zone's apex is listed as a target of a CLONE RR. i'm still clarifying my thinking, which is why i'm brain dumping here rather than writing an I-D (yet). From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Mon Dec 21 04:35:44 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D379728C0F3 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 04:35:44 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 04:35:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from 95-25-43-116.broadband.corbina.ru (95-25-43-116.broadband.corbina.ru [95.25.43.116]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 1E51628C0E9 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 04:35:36 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: urgent To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20091221123537.1E51628C0E9@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 04:35:36 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 21 04:43:09 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 550433A68C4; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 04:43:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.306 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.306 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.293, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y+8-SPj0e8ob; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 04:43:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9135B3A68A2; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 04:43:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMhS6-0009Y3-OE for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:33:30 +0000 Received: from [193.1.169.34] (helo=dakota.ucd.ie) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMhS0-0009XV-Gz for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:33:24 +0000 Received: from conversion-daemon.dakota.ucd.ie by dakota.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-2.05 (built Apr 28 2005)) id <0KV0006014IG1S00@dakota.ucd.ie> (original mail from Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie) for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:33:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.0.1.177] (bark.no8.be [83.141.81.52]) by dakota.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-2.05 (built Apr 28 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0KV000EE95JM7N00@dakota.ucd.ie>; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:33:22 +0000 (GMT) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:33:21 +0000 From: Niall O'Reilly Subject: Re: [dnsext] zone clones In-reply-to: <22224.1261394655@nsa.vix.com> To: Paul Vixie Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie Message-id: <4B2F6B11.1020604@ucd.ie> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <22224.1261394655@nsa.vix.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Paul Vixie wrote: > i'm still clarifying my thinking, which is why i'm brain dumping here > rather than writing an I-D (yet). > my working problem statement is "how can i make these clone names > work everywhere a normal first class name would work" That reads as if non-apex nodes should be amenable to cloning, but the rest of your message seems to consider only entire zones. Was that your intention? Best regards, Niall O'Reilly From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 21 06:50:52 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34D263A6969; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 06:50:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.983 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.983 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.616, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gwuv1HGnOMCK; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 06:50:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E02E3A6825; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 06:50:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMjOv-000Ow7-HT for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 14:38:21 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMjOp-000OvO-2J for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 14:38:15 +0000 Received: from [0.0.0.0] (gatt.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.6]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBLEc6Ra034458; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 09:38:06 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 09:11:11 -0500 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Edward Lewis Subject: [dnsext] we've been assuming that only one label matters Cc: ed.lewis@neustar.biz Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Catching up on the various proposals, it seems that we are thinking in terms of making X.tld. and Y.tld. equivalent but not thinking of X1.X0.tld. and Y1.Y0.tld. as needing to be equivalent. DNAME and CNAME rewrites won't handle this, nor CLONE. Multiple delegations could but that would result in an explosion of zones. Is there an approach which involved the stubs learning to "normalize?" the query before sending it on - or building this into the first name server to see the query? (Even if equivalence is restricted to names, not types.) -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis NeuStar You can leave a voice message at +1-571-434-5468 As with IPv6, the problem with the deployment of frictionless surfaces is that they're not getting traction. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 21 07:35:43 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 530283A6A38; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 07:35:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.057 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.057 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.542, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uf7uBfXCikqq; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 07:35:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D67B3A6A0B; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 07:35:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMkB5-000599-9M for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 15:28:07 +0000 Received: from [193.227.124.2] (helo=mx01.bfk.de) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMkAv-00058O-QR for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 15:27:58 +0000 Received: from mx00.int.bfk.de ([10.119.110.2]) by mx01.bfk.de with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) id 1NMkAq-0007ua-GM; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 15:27:52 +0000 Received: by bfk.de with local id 1NMkAr-0001Aj-8S; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 15:27:53 +0000 To: Edward Lewis Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] we've been assuming that only one label matters References: From: Florian Weimer Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 15:27:53 +0000 In-Reply-To: (Edward Lewis's message of "Mon\, 21 Dec 2009 09\:11\:11 -0500") Message-ID: <82pr68ny86.fsf@mid.bfk.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: * Edward Lewis: > Catching up on the various proposals, it seems that we are thinking in > terms of making X.tld. and Y.tld. equivalent but not thinking of > X1.X0.tld. and Y1.Y0.tld. as needing to be equivalent. Do you mean differently-encoded labels in the same name? I was under the impression that the variant duplication within a single zone was acceptable. With any sort of redirection, the effort is not n*m, but n + m. > Is there an approach which involved the stubs learning to "normalize?" This does not work for email submission, which is a disconnected operation in general, and has to use a Punycode name. If we ignore email submission, some sort of signalling/application logic clearly is the way to go. --=20 Florian Weimer BFK edv-consulting GmbH http://www.bfk.de/ Kriegsstra=DFe 100 tel: +49-721-96201-1 D-76133 Karlsruhe fax: +49-721-96201-99 From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 21 08:12:32 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66D9A3A688C; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 08:12:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.068 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.068 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.531, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tTXVEMc7i94R; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 08:12:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DA783A6A11; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 08:12:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMkl0-0009NN-R2 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 16:05:14 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMkku-0009Mb-MS for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 16:05:08 +0000 Received: from [0.0.0.0] (mail.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.6]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBLG4wNj035065; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:04:59 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <82pr68ny86.fsf@mid.bfk.de> References: <82pr68ny86.fsf@mid.bfk.de> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 10:53:10 -0500 To: Florian Weimer From: Edward Lewis Subject: Re: [dnsext] we've been assuming that only one label matters Cc: Edward Lewis , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: At 15:27 +0000 12/21/09, Florian Weimer wrote: >* Edward Lewis: > >> Catching up on the various proposals, it seems that we are thinking in >> terms of making X.tld. and Y.tld. equivalent but not thinking of >> X1.X0.tld. and Y1.Y0.tld. as needing to be equivalent. > >Do you mean differently-encoded labels in the same name? Not just that. Even the same encoding. E.g., WwW.MyDoMain.SLD.tld. and wWw.Mydomain.SlD.TLD. need to be the same. Imagine the upper case is traditional Han, lower case is simplified Han. As a short example. (And what if I mix upper case and lower case Greek labels - realize I am not likely to give a good description of the Greek case.) >I was under the impression that the variant duplication within a >single zone was acceptable. With any sort of redirection, the effort >is not n*m, but n + m. This is, once again, not just a problem for zones, it's a problem for domains. (Is there general confusion between what a zone is and a domain is?) >> Is there an approach which involved the stubs learning to "normalize?" > >This does not work for email submission, which is a disconnected >operation in general, and has to use a Punycode name. If we ignore >email submission, some sort of signalling/application logic clearly is >the way to go. Email can deal with upper/lower case presentation, can we extend this to other issues. What I am positing is that this may be a Prensentation Layer issue and not a Data Space issue. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis NeuStar You can leave a voice message at +1-571-434-5468 As with IPv6, the problem with the deployment of frictionless surfaces is that they're not getting traction. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 21 08:23:36 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B3DB3A6A4F; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 08:23:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.253 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.253 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.346, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SyLJWa1fkDQD; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 08:23:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36A9A3A67FC; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 08:23:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMktg-000AWX-Ew for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 16:14:12 +0000 Received: from [193.227.124.2] (helo=mx01.bfk.de) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMktZ-000AVq-2g for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 16:14:05 +0000 Received: from mx00.int.bfk.de ([10.119.110.2]) by mx01.bfk.de with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) id 1NMktV-0007pW-GZ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 16:14:01 +0000 Received: by bfk.de with local id 1NMktW-0006KS-Dd; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 16:14:02 +0000 To: Edward Lewis Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] we've been assuming that only one label matters References: <82pr68ny86.fsf@mid.bfk.de> From: Florian Weimer Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 16:14:02 +0000 In-Reply-To: (Edward Lewis's message of "Mon\, 21 Dec 2009 10\:53\:10 -0500") Message-ID: <82eimonw39.fsf@mid.bfk.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: * Edward Lewis: > E.g., WwW.MyDoMain.SLD.tld. and wWw.Mydomain.SlD.TLD. need to be the > same. Imagine the upper case is traditional Han, lower case is > simplified Han. As a short example. (And what if I mix upper case > and lower case Greek labels - realize I am not likely to give a good > description of the Greek case.) > >>I was under the impression that the variant duplication within a >>single zone was acceptable. With any sort of redirection, the effort >>is not n*m, but n + m. > > This is, once again, not just a problem for zones, it's a problem > for domains. Yes, but it seems possible to address this just with redirection alone, with a moderate amount of bloat at the zone level. > What I am positing is that this may be a Prensentation Layer issue and > not a Data Space issue. I'm not sure if those ISO terms are useful here. Clearly, email needs to submit raw data (which means UTF-8 or an injective encoding of that), or the client needs to access to the applicable mapping table. Otherwise, you end up with problems at the MTA because when the user agent has submitted a name which has been over-normalized (according to the prefered encoding format for the name). --=20 Florian Weimer BFK edv-consulting GmbH http://www.bfk.de/ Kriegsstra=DFe 100 tel: +49-721-96201-1 D-76133 Karlsruhe fax: +49-721-96201-99 From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 21 09:08:14 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DCB128C10B; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 09:08:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.421 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.421 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.178, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ngvjDCLCEKAR; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 09:08:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9266B3A67B1; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 09:08:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMlaq-000FlY-K1 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 16:58:48 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMlai-000Fk9-06 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 16:58:40 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68B37A330C for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 16:58:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] zone clones In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:33:21 GMT." <4B2F6B11.1020604@ucd.ie> References: <22224.1261394655@nsa.vix.com> <4B2F6B11.1020604@ucd.ie> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 16:58:39 +0000 Message-ID: <35388.1261414719@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:33:21 +0000 > From: Niall O'Reilly > > Paul Vixie wrote: > > i'm still clarifying my thinking, which is why i'm brain dumping here > > rather than writing an I-D (yet). > > > my working problem statement is "how can i make these clone names > > work everywhere a normal first class name would work" > > That reads as if non-apex nodes should be amenable > to cloning, but the rest of your message seems to > consider only entire zones. Was that your intention? since i am not considering any CNAME-based solutions, then apex-vs-wholezone has been overtaken by events. i'm looking at this as first class names and rrsets for the entire zone, no exceptions. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 21 09:19:38 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5BA43A69BF; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 09:19:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.539 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.539 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.060, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Uvl7NtJ-JoHY; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 09:19:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88DF93A6A5B; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 09:19:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMll4-000Gye-S8 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 17:09:22 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMlkw-000Gxi-Lv for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 17:09:14 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59F7EA332A for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 17:09:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] we've been assuming that only one label matters In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 21 Dec 2009 09:11:11 EST." References: X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 17:09:14 +0000 Message-ID: <35865.1261415354@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 09:11:11 -0500 > From: Edward Lewis > > Catching up on the various proposals, it seems that we are thinking in > terms of making X.tld. and Y.tld. equivalent but not thinking of > X1.X0.tld. and Y1.Y0.tld. as needing to be equivalent. > > DNAME and CNAME rewrites won't handle this, nor CLONE. Multiple > delegations could but that would result in an explosion of zones. > > Is there an approach which involved the stubs learning to "normalize?" > the query before sending it on - or building this into the first name > server to see the query? (Even if equivalence is restricted to names, > not types.) i think we've ruled out any approach that requires the stubs to be upgraded before the clones are visible. at least, i am constraining my own work along those lines. an "explosion of zones" may be the cost of adding this functionality, but as long as the explosion is only felt by silicon and not by human operators, i consider the cost reasonable. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 21 11:03:31 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08A8C3A6A87; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:03:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.33 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.33 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.269, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G42hki8CrHJl; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:03:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B59F28C0F0; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:03:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMnP9-0005gq-1v for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 18:54:51 +0000 Received: from [193.1.169.37] (helo=cali.ucd.ie) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMnP2-0005f3-BK for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 18:54:44 +0000 Received: from conversion-daemon.cali.ucd.ie by cali.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.03 (built Sep 22 2005)) id <0KV000G01MQKG700@cali.ucd.ie> (original mail from Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie) for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 18:54:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.0.1.177] (bark.no8.be [83.141.81.52]) by cali.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.03 (built Sep 22 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0KV000H3NN753T00@cali.ucd.ie>; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 18:54:41 +0000 (GMT) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 18:54:41 +0000 From: Niall O'Reilly Subject: Re: [dnsext] zone clones In-reply-to: <35388.1261414719@nsa.vix.com> To: Paul Vixie Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie Message-id: <4B2FC471.4020805@ucd.ie> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <22224.1261394655@nsa.vix.com> <4B2F6B11.1020604@ucd.ie> <35388.1261414719@nsa.vix.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Paul Vixie wrote: > since i am not considering any CNAME-based solutions, then apex-vs-wholezone > has been overtaken by events. i'm looking at this as first class names and > rrsets for the entire zone, no exceptions. I think this means exactly what I was hoping for, but I'm not sure. You clearly "have the bit between your teeth", so it's probably best I leave you in peace and look forward to your next brain-dump (or initial draft!). Best regards, Niall O'Reilly From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 21 11:06:50 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ECFB28C13D; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:06:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -112.042 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-112.042 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-5.343, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_BSP_OTHER=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OimcebA-CUFH; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:06:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 484BB3A6AA9; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:06:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMnRN-00066t-OJ for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 18:57:09 +0000 Received: from [208.31.42.53] (helo=gal.iecc.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMnRG-00065o-AA for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 18:57:02 +0000 Received: (qmail 69874 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2009 18:57:00 -0000 Received: from mail1.iecc.com (208.31.42.56) by mail1.iecc.com with QMQP; 21 Dec 2009 18:57:00 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:cc:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=k0912; olt=johnl@user.iecc.com; bh=khRLL55gVAh48j5lFLIzEOD5FsRbQlOZ7IJk4G0nvTA=; b=Fha5q8Ea5kXN7qLYSyA30dZ6eLqS15VYeE7yRwTqvMbts0hqf0oWYp/Dgq5uWUO/Xpxix6i3jgkuA4M/8Yl341veFqoL1omMmyFdiy2jJzSj6tzQoZavcARj7v/M6RvliF6HxO55vfmnzstt7faNcXfBv6UcPjxl4vZds9bMPsw= Date: 21 Dec 2009 18:57:00 -0000 Message-ID: <20091221185700.26469.qmail@simone.iecc.com> From: John Levine To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] we've been assuming that only one label matters In-Reply-To: <35865.1261415354@nsa.vix.com> Organization: Cc: vixie@isc.org X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: >i think we've ruled out any approach that requires the stubs to be >upgraded before the clones are visible. at least, i am constraining >my own work along those lines. That seems reasonable. On the other hand, mail and web servers are going to need to be upgraded or at least reconfigured to know what variant domains they're supposed to handle, so perhaps it's not a big leap to expect at least the server side DNS to be upgraded to know how to respond. R's, John From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 21 11:17:43 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BD9F3A67FA; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:17:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.144 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.144 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.455, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IuV-GZ4y4iVW; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:17:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 591473A680C; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:17:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMnaL-0007qu-2r for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 19:06:25 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMnaD-0007ps-P5 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 19:06:18 +0000 Received: from [0.0.0.0] (ns.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.6]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBLJ62gn036761; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 14:06:02 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <35865.1261415354@nsa.vix.com> References: <35865.1261415354@nsa.vix.com> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 14:05:58 -0500 To: Paul Vixie From: Edward Lewis Subject: Re: [dnsext] we've been assuming that only one label matters Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: At 17:09 +0000 12/21/09, Paul Vixie wrote: >i think we've ruled out any approach that requires the stubs to be >upgraded before the clones are visible. at least, i am constraining >my own work along those lines. (Who is "we"? And why have "we" ruled out approaches before having a agreed upon problem statement?) Why rule out upgrading stubs? Wouldn't it make sense that stubs would be upgraded as the ends want support for newer domain names? Time was, we would upgrade BIND because we wanted the latest types, dynamic update, DNSSEC, etc. - the latest features. Things that have relied upon central system upgrades (DNSSEC) take the longest. >an "explosion of zones" may be the cost of adding this functionality, >but as long as the explosion is only felt by silicon and not by human >operators, i consider the cost reasonable. "Felt only by silicon" forgets that currency pays for silicon (capital expense and operational expense) and that currency comes from humans. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis NeuStar You can leave a voice message at +1-571-434-5468 As with IPv6, the problem with the deployment of frictionless surfaces is that they're not getting traction. 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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Mon Dec 21 12:00:21 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F77728C21D for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:00:21 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: Pfizer \256 Customer Servi[...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -21.239 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-21.239 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_ALMOST_IP=5.417, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_DYNAMIC_SPLIT_IP=3.493, HELO_EQ_DYNAMIC=1.144, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HFjmBQ8VfxbG for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:00:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from 191.Red-79-157-136.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net (unknown [87.223.81.205]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C50693A6AB7 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:00:10 -0800 (PST) From: Pfizer ® Customer Service To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Special offer dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org receive 70% OFF on Pfizer. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091221200010.C50693A6AB7@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:00:10 -0800 (PST) Pfizer ® 80% OFF
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 21 12:59:46 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17C523A690B; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:59:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.035 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.035 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.364, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_55=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_65=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Akym+3GR-96J; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:59:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B4153A68F6; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:59:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMpBi-000LbC-Ke for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 20:49:06 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMpBb-000Lap-G4 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 20:48:59 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35953A3357 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 20:48:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] Re: zone clones In-Reply-To: Your message of "21 Dec 2009 18:57:00 GMT." <20091221185700.26469.qmail@simone.iecc.com> References: <20091221185700.26469.qmail@simone.iecc.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 20:48:59 +0000 Message-ID: <54123.1261428539@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > Date: 21 Dec 2009 18:57:00 -0000 > From: John Levine > > >i think we've ruled out any approach that requires the stubs to be > >upgraded before the clones are visible. at least, i am constraining > >my own work along those lines. > > That seems reasonable. On the other hand, mail and web servers are going > to need to be upgraded or at least reconfigured to know what variant > domains they're supposed to handle, so perhaps it's not a big leap to > expect at least the server side DNS to be upgraded to know how to > respond. something's got to be upgraded or there will be no change in behaviour. simplistic classification of the things that could be upgraded are: 1. some delegating (parent) nameservers but maybe not all 2. all delegating (parent) nameservers 3. some authority (base + clone apex) nameservers but maybe not all 4. all authority (base + clone apex) nameservers 5. recursive servers all over the internet (inevitably never all of them) 6. recursive forwarders all over the internet (inevitably never all of them) 7. stubs all over the internet (inevitably never all of them) 8. client side applications (mail, web, etc) over the internet (inevitably never all of them) 9. server side applications (mail, web, etc) over the internet (inevitably never all of them) of these, i am personally ruling out the ones that number in the millions, hundreds of thousands, tens of thousands, and thousands. if we have that much work to do before these names are visible, then it'll be ten years or longer before there's any economic incentive to deploy them server-side, and the world will find some other way to meet their need for domain cloning. for the moment, i'm concentrating on a solution that uses only #4 above, because it puts the workload (upgrading name servers) where the incentive will be (wanting the clone names to work.) (that's "engineering economics".) of course, if a mail or web server is currently known by a single name and is about to receive connections from clients who know it by another name, then it will have to be upgraded or reconfigured. reconfiguration is the most likely, since these servers universally understand "aliasing" today and so there are configuration hooks available for that. upgrading, though, is an attractive option since it would allow a server to gather a list of clone names it's also known by, via RRTYPE=CLONE queries, and to thereafter treat all of those names as real, none as aliases. this would affect server generated messages and transactions which usually come from a server's "real name". however, upgrading of server side applications should not be required and simple configuration aliasing using existing software should just work. --- > Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 14:05:58 -0500 > From: Edward Lewis > > >i think we've ruled out any approach that requires the stubs to be > >upgraded before the clones are visible. at least, i am constraining > >my own work along those lines. > > (Who is "we"? And why have "we" ruled out approaches before having a > agreed upon problem statement?) i'm working from the problem statement andrew sullivan sent out originally, which asks us for names which are "the same as" other names. "we" is maybe the wrong word-- some people may still be hunting down a problem statement or may still be considering names which are "almost but not quite the same as", along the lines of CNAME+DNAME, or ENAME. (don't let me stop you.) > Why rule out upgrading stubs? Wouldn't it make sense that stubs would be > upgraded as the ends want support for newer domain names? Time was, we > would upgrade BIND because we wanted the latest types, dynamic update, > DNSSEC, etc. - the latest features. Things that have relied upon central > system upgrades (DNSSEC) take the longest. stubs number in the hundreds of millions and most of those are in ROM. a gethostbyname() library function in an embedded system is part of what i mean by "stub". see above in my reply to john levine -- if we come up with names which are "the same as" other names only to stubs who are upgraded, then the world will move on without us and find some other way to clone their names, because the world will recognize the ten year 50% point. > >an "explosion of zones" may be the cost of adding this functionality, > >but as long as the explosion is only felt by silicon and not by human > >operators, i consider the cost reasonable. > > "Felt only by silicon" forgets that currency pays for silicon (capital > expense and operational expense) and that currency comes from humans. obviously if we can find a solution that has even less cost then we should prefer it. but silicon has gotten cheaper and more powerful every year of my life, and i'm not willing to adopt the pessimistic view that that will or could ever stop happening. humans on the other hand have gotten slower and more expensive every year of my life, and i'm not willing to adopt the optimistic view that that will ever stop happening. so, looking at this from engineering economics, a cost borne only in silicon is preferrable in the design of a global and permanent system, than a cost also borne by humans. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 21 14:48:39 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED8BC3A6930; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 14:48:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.013 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.013 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.014, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_55=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QO-cDO5WcIMI; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 14:48:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECB983A6842; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 14:48:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMqv4-0008W9-WD for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 22:40:03 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::5] (helo=farside.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMquy-0008VP-J2 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 22:39:56 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (drugs.dv.isc.org [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (not verified)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AC0AE601C; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 22:39:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBLMdrqm013037; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:39:53 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200912212239.nBLMdrqm013037@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Paul Vixie Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews References: <22224.1261394655@nsa.vix.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] zone clones In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:24:15 -0000." <22224.1261394655@nsa.vix.com> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:39:52 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: In message <22224.1261394655@nsa.vix.com>, Paul Vixie writes: > if the problem statement was "how can i make these clone names work as > e-mail and web addresses" then something involving CNAME could work, > even something like CNAME+DNAME, or ENAME which would mean CNAME+DNAME. > however, if these clone names would only work as application layer > QNAMEs and not as intermediate QNAMEs (like MX targets and NS targets) > then the clone names would always be second class. > > since my working problem statement is "how can i make these clone names > work everywhere a normal first class name would work" then nothing > involving CNAME will work and it's going to take some kind of delegation > and some kind of zone service. i view the added DNSSEC load of signing > the clone names as an economics problem, solveable in silicon, and not > a concern. however, to be truly first class names, all updates to any > clone must be reflected in the other clones. so, some kind of on-wire > support will be needed at the zone apex, in the zone's authority servers. > > i take it as a given that any cloned zone will be able to upgrade all > of its authority servers on a flag day, and that a mix of upgraded and > nonupgraded servers at a zone apex is an explicit nongoal. i also take > it as a given that any solution requiring that all applications and/or > stub resolvers have to be upgraded before the first zone can be cloned > is off the table. so, no CNAMEs (synthetic or otherwise), no mix of old > and new authority servers, and no changes to stubs, apps, or forwarders. > > the (new, upgraded once we figure out what they're supposed to do) apex > authority servers will have to be able to look at the zone content, not > just out-of-band configuration, to learn that a zone is part of a group > of clones, and to learn the identities of the other clones. on the > primary master, an update to one has to be treated as an update to all. > while it would be nice if it was possible to hold the content of the > zone only once and to serve it under multiple apexes, this would require > late binding for relative names (and thus a new AXFR specification) and > would require some very careful programming if DNSSEC was in use. so, > each clone's content will be transferred and stored independently, and > the primary master will be responsible for reflecting updates and/or > "zone reloads" at all clone apexes. > > i'm contemplating something like a "clone group" or "zone clone group" > where the apex would have, in addition to the normal SOA and NS RRsets, > a new CLONE RRset (not the same as what doug barton's been proposing but > using the same RR name he's been talking about). the authority server > would see the CLONE RRset at the zone apex and know to populate its zone > table with all clone names not just the original zone's name. changes > to the CLONE RRset would result in changes to every authority's zone > table. every CLONE would have its own IXFR/AXFR. the one primary master > would serve all clones of the zone. > > so, the current state of my thinking about this would look like multiple > delegation NS RRsets, not all of which need be in the same parent zone, > and then a corresponding CLONE RRset at the zone apex, telling the primary > master to reflect all updates and reloads across not just the zone's apex > but the clone-set's apexes as well, and telling both the primary master > and all secondary servers to populate their zone tables with not just the > zone apex but all clones as well, and telling the secondary servers to do > separate IXFR/AXFR separately for the zone apex and for each clone. > > atomicity of clone content would not be guaranteed. it would be possible > for the "base zone" serial number to increment, and for the primary server > to take some period of time reflecting this change across the "clone group", > and for some secondary servers to have pulled the "base zone" deltas over > and to have pulled some of the "clone group" deltas over but not all of > them yet, and for some "clone zones" to have lower serial numbers for some > period. > > there would be no new support for clone groups in the delegating zones, > since not all clones would be delegated from the same parent. these would > look like parallel NS RRsets. the only way to know whether a zone is a > clone would be to query for the CLONE RRset at that zone's apex and to > see whether the zone's apex is listed as a target of a CLONE RR. > > i'm still clarifying my thinking, which is why i'm brain dumping here > rather than writing an I-D (yet). > This is a impossibility except for leaf zones. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 21 15:17:45 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 650243A684C; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 15:17:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.263 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.263 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.336, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cDdH4LjAFlxG; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 15:17:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 770DB3A659C; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 15:17:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMrN6-000Bir-5f for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 23:09:00 +0000 Received: from [204.14.89.4] (helo=mail2.fluidhosting.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NMrMx-000Bhp-9p for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 23:08:51 +0000 Received: (qmail 17694 invoked by uid 399); 21 Dec 2009 23:08:50 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO foreign.dougb.net) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTPAM; 21 Dec 2009 23:08:50 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Sender: dougb@dougbarton.us Message-ID: <4B300006.1090906@dougbarton.us> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 15:08:54 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20091206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Niall O'Reilly CC: Vaggelis Segredakis , 'Andrew Sullivan' , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: We need a better problem statement References: <20091215032103.GA27116@shinkuro.com> <96306.1260854329@nsa.vix.com> <200912150634.nBF6YFvb038441@drugs.dv.isc.org> <19137.1260889165@nsa.vix.com> <20091215160634.GF30255@shinkuro.com> <4BAAB7D2-2084-4E76-8F96-1E8027F755E1@hopcount.ca> <20091216122135.GA14923@vacation.karoshi.com> <18821656DEAD41D88B07153DB6DAF657@ics.forth.gr> <20091217170037.GK43572@shinkuro.com> <4B2B51C3.7030601@dougbarton.us> <3F824140CABE44CC96F3EB7A6A7FC1CE@ics.forth.gr> <4B2B6475.8000202@dougbarton.us> <4B2B7956.5060005@ucd.ie> <4B2DAA38.5090504@dougbarton.us> <4B2F419A.2030906@ucd.ie> In-Reply-To: <4B2F419A.2030906@ucd.ie> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D5B2F0FB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Niall O'Reilly wrote: > I appreciate the trouble you're taking to make the distinction > clear. I am pleased that my efforts have been successful. :) > I'm not convinced that "sameness" (rather than the > weaker level of equivalence achievable with redirection) is the > right target to be aiming for. This is really a question to be > answered by for Vaggelis and those in other registries with > similar requirements. I agree that more feedback from the people who would be directly affected by this issue is needed, and valuable. Doug -- Improve the effectiveness of your Internet presence with a domain name makeover! http://SupersetSolutions.com/ From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Mon Dec 21 22:05:07 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3E873A6807 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 22:05:06 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char A9 hex): From: Genuine Pfizer \251 Retailer ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 22:04:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from 1.222.broadband7.iol.cz (1.222.broadband7.iol.cz [88.102.222.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D26403A6837 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 22:04:58 -0800 (PST) From: Genuine Pfizer © Retailer To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Special 80% discount for customer dnsext-archive on all Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091222060458.D26403A6837@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 22:04:58 -0800 (PST) Newsletter If you are unable to see the message below, click here to view.

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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Mon Dec 21 22:06:03 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D407C3A6ADF for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 22:06:03 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: <8JXWGV2HbYME> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char A9 hex): From: Genuine Pfizer \251 Retailer ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 22:05:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from 1.222.broadband7.iol.cz (1.222.broadband7.iol.cz [88.102.222.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A2E43A6807 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 22:05:56 -0800 (PST) From: Genuine Pfizer © Retailer To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Special 80% discount for customer dnsext-archive on all Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091222060556.8A2E43A6807@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 22:05:56 -0800 (PST) Newsletter If you are unable to see the message below, click here to view.

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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Mon Dec 21 23:00:01 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D9783A6874 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 23:00:01 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: <1YfKNp52mfQp> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 22:59:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from alusash.co.kr (unknown [115.108.96.144]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 2C1E43A67A8 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 22:59:52 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: User dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org get 75 discount on ALL Pfizer To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20091222065953.2C1E43A67A8@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 22:59:52 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 22 03:30:07 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B226F3A67EB; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 03:30:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.538, BAYES_20=-0.74, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_BAYES_7x5=0.8, SARE_BAYES_8x5=0.8, SARE_BAYES_9x5=1.2, SARE_URI_EQUALS=1.666, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D1rcUpiXqjs3; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 03:30:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7BD33A677D; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 03:30:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NN2lr-000OYQ-KT for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 11:19:19 +0000 Received: from [139.91.1.2] (helo=mailgate.ics.forth.gr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NN2li-000OXc-Ia for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 11:19:11 +0000 X-DNSBL-MILTER: Passed Received: from webmail.ics.forth.gr (sphinx.ics.forth.gr [139.91.1.4]) by mailgate.ics.forth.gr (8.14.3/ICS-FORTH/V10-1.5-GATE) with ESMTP id nBMBIvEh016785; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 13:18:57 +0200 (EET) Received: from Thanatosnew ([139.91.88.160]) (authenticated bits=0) by webmail.ics.forth.gr (8.12.9//ICS-FORTH/V10.1.0C-EXTNULL-PLUS-SASL) with ESMTP id nBMBIlqt012526; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 13:18:52 +0200 (EET) From: "Vaggelis Segredakis" To: "'Florian Weimer'" , "'Edward Lewis'" , Cc: "'Sotiris Panaretou'" , =?utf-8?B?J86TzrnPjs+BzrPOv8+CIM6azr/Ou8+FzrLOrM+CJw==?= References: <82pr68ny86.fsf@mid.bfk.de> Subject: RE: [dnsext] we've been assuming that only one label matters Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 13:19:06 +0200 Message-ID: <7726422CDE7A4E6A8A1470B57D87835B@ics.forth.gr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Thread-Index: AcqCVXiPLOrQAysXRniIRcD/Xp5hnAAoaKfw In-Reply-To: <82pr68ny86.fsf@mid.bfk.de> X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 4B30AB21.000 on mailgate : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-ICS-JCHK-SCL: Ham Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Dear Florian, Our request is to make Name1.gr Name2.gr Name3.gr Name4.gr=20 working one like the other, using name1.gr as master name. So Name1.gr IN NS ns1.name1.gr Name2 xNAME Name1 Name3 xNAME Name1 Name4 xNAME Name1 This way, with a little tweaking user@name2.gr| user@name3.gr|-> user@name1.gr user@name4.gr| http://name2.gr=3Dhttp://name3.gr=3Dhttp://name4.gr =3D http://name1.gr The same goes for ftp etc. However, since we will all pretty soon have the opportunity to register = .GreekIDN, this service will have to extend to the level [Name1.gr. xNAME Name2.GreekIDN.] or even [gr. xNAME GreekIDN.] Best Regards, Vaggelis Segredakis -----Original Message----- From: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org = [mailto:owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Florian Weimer Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 5:28 PM To: Edward Lewis Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] we've been assuming that only one label matters * Edward Lewis: > Catching up on the various proposals, it seems that we are thinking in > terms of making X.tld. and Y.tld. equivalent but not thinking of > X1.X0.tld. and Y1.Y0.tld. as needing to be equivalent. Do you mean differently-encoded labels in the same name? I was under the impression that the variant duplication within a single zone was acceptable. With any sort of redirection, the effort is not n*m, but n + m. > Is there an approach which involved the stubs learning to "normalize?" This does not work for email submission, which is a disconnected operation in general, and has to use a Punycode name. If we ignore email submission, some sort of signalling/application logic clearly is the way to go. --=20 Florian Weimer BFK edv-consulting GmbH http://www.bfk.de/ Kriegsstra=C3=9Fe 100 tel: +49-721-96201-1 D-76133 Karlsruhe fax: +49-721-96201-99 From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Tue Dec 22 06:28:57 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EF6D3A6846 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 06:28:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -86.464 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.464 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_PL=1.135, HOST_EQ_PL=1.95, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v+wG+Szbmi4L for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 06:28:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from d60-181.icpnet.pl (d60-181.icpnet.pl [77.65.60.181]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F14C03A680D for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 06:28:55 -0800 (PST) From: Online Dating Service To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Julia sent new message for you MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091222142855.F14C03A680D@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 06:28:55 -0800 (PST) Newsletter Dear member of our Dating site!
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Olga From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Tue Dec 22 06:29:03 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C32773A695E for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 06:29:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -86.464 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.464 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_PL=1.135, HOST_EQ_PL=1.95, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3VhFSew5keVt for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 06:29:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from d60-181.icpnet.pl (d60-181.icpnet.pl [77.65.60.181]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94FF63A6846 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 06:29:02 -0800 (PST) From: Online Dating Service To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Julia sent new message for you MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091222142902.94FF63A6846@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 06:29:02 -0800 (PST) Newsletter Dear member of our Dating site!
You have 9 unread messages from ladies.
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Best wishes to you,
administrator
Olga From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Tue Dec 22 10:40:27 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD14E3A67FB for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:40:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -58.766 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-58.766 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=16.120, BAYES_99=3.5, FB_NUMYO2=10.357, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_SK=1.35, HOST_EQ_SK=0.555, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R7VgAvYy6xKC for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:40:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from chello089173035164.chello.sk (chello089173035164.chello.sk [89.173.35.164]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AFF83A67BD for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:40:26 -0800 (PST) From: Online Dating Service To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: You have new mail from Olga 25 y.o. Russia, dating MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091222184026.9AFF83A67BD@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:40:26 -0800 (PST) Newsletter Dear member of our Dating site!
You have 12 unread messages from ladies.
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Best wishes to you,
administrator
Olga From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Tue Dec 22 10:41:36 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7A9C3A6942 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:41:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -63.766 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-63.766 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=11.120, BAYES_99=3.5, FB_NUMYO2=10.357, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_SK=1.35, HOST_EQ_SK=0.555, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qJ4znZMQem61 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:41:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from chello089173035164.chello.sk (chello089173035164.chello.sk [89.173.35.164]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94AD43A6906 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:41:35 -0800 (PST) From: Online Dating Service To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: You have new mail from Olga 25 y.o. Russia, dating MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091222184135.94AD43A6906@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:41:35 -0800 (PST) Newsletter Dear member of our Dating site!
You have 10 unread messages from ladies.
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Best wishes to you,
administrator
Olga From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Tue Dec 22 11:25:05 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71E3B3A6994 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 11:25:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -79.527 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-79.527 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=7.677, BAYES_99=3.5, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_HU=1.35, HOST_EQ_HU=1.245, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eIrm7t8p9CGH for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 11:25:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from 5403182B.catv.pool.telekom.hu (5403182B.catv.pool.telekom.hu [84.3.24.43]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE2753A695E for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 11:25:03 -0800 (PST) From: Date-online Service To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: 11 ladies are online now (Russia, dating) Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20091222192503.DE2753A695E@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 11:25:03 -0800 (PST) Newsletter Dear member dnsext-archive of our Dating site!
You have 6 unread messages from ladies.
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Best wishes to you,
administrator
Olga From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 22 18:02:58 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E57E43A68B6; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 18:02:58 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Duplicate header field: "Message-ID" X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -92.914 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-92.914 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=11.129, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.803, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KAfQ-Gk8ND9B; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 18:02:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6E1D3A67A1; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 18:02:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NNGPg-000IAd-4M for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 01:53:20 +0000 Received: from [159.226.7.146] (helo=cnnic.cn) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NNGPY-000IA1-6h for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 01:53:12 +0000 Received: (eyou send program); Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:53:10 +0800 Message-ID: <461533190.08485@cnnic.cn> X-EYOUMAIL-SMTPAUTH: yaojk@cnnic.cn Received: from unknown (HELO lenovo47e041cf) (127.0.0.1) by 127.0.0.1 with SMTP; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:53:10 +0800 Message-ID: From: "YAO Jiankang" To: Subject: [dnsext] Fw: I-D Action:draft-yao-dnsext-bname-00.txt Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:53:20 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0372_01CA83B5.C2186BA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. 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Content-ID: <2009-12-22173316.I-D@ietf.org> ------=_NextPart_000_0372_01CA83B5.C2186BA0-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 22 18:03:27 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B1AA3A67A1; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 18:03:27 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Duplicate header field: "Message-ID" X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -92.332 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-92.332 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=8.957, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_BASE64_BLANKS=0.041, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.803, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_BAYES_7x5=0.8, SARE_BAYES_8x5=0.8, SARE_BAYES_9x5=1.2, SARE_URI_EQUALS=1.666, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ku0I3+ij-QxY; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 18:03:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 604533A6452; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 18:03:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NNGRb-000IN0-Te for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 01:55:19 +0000 Received: from [159.226.7.146] (helo=cnnic.cn) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NNGRT-000IMU-GS for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 01:55:11 +0000 Received: (eyou send program); Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:55:10 +0800 Message-ID: <461533310.26179@cnnic.cn> X-EYOUMAIL-SMTPAUTH: yaojk@cnnic.cn Received: from unknown (HELO lenovo47e041cf) (127.0.0.1) by 127.0.0.1 with SMTP; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:55:10 +0800 Message-ID: <23AED94CC9A5441E87C1D3DEC0E74E4A@LENOVO47E041CF> From: "YAO Jiankang" To: "Vaggelis Segredakis" , "'Florian Weimer'" , "'Edward Lewis'" , Cc: "'Sotiris Panaretou'" , =?UTF-8?B?J86TzrnPjs+BzrPOv8+CIM6azr/Ou8+FzrLOrM+CJw==?= References: <82pr68ny86.fsf@mid.bfk.de> <461482310.00504@cnnic.cn> Subject: Re: [dnsext] we've been assuming that only one label matters Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:55:20 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. 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Tue, 22 Dec 2009 18:09:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <0084E5A300414A859C3D6F64B0173642@LENOVO47E041CF> From: "Health" To: Subject: [dnsext] Fw: I-D Action:draft-yao-dnsext-bname-00.txt Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 10:09:15 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0470_01CA83B7.FB83E7A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. 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name="draft-yao-dnsext-bname-00.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="draft-yao-dnsext-bname-00.txt" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2009-12-22173316.I-D@ietf.org> ------=_NextPart_000_0470_01CA83B7.FB83E7A0-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 22 21:14:10 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F3F43A68C2; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 21:14:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.933, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VjJo+4BtafF7; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 21:14:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A7253A67F5; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 21:14:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NNJPM-0009XC-Da for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 05:05:12 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NNJPE-0009Wc-DZ for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 05:05:04 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1140AA35CE for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 05:05:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Fw: I-D Action:draft-yao-dnsext-bname-00.txt In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:53:20 +0800." <461533190.08485@cnnic.cn> References: <461533190.08485@cnnic.cn> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 05:05:04 +0000 Message-ID: <34386.1261544704@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > From: "YAO Jiankang" > Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:53:20 +0800 > > This draft may help to solve the problem of bundle names or equivalent > names which require the DNS to have an identical resolution. any > comments are welcome. Thanks a lot. > > Yao Jiankang > CNNIC > > > Title : Bundle DNS Name Redirection > > Author(s) : J. Yao, et al. > > Filename : draft-yao-dnsext-bname-00.txt > > Pages : 12 > > Date : 2009-12-22 > > ... > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-yao-dnsext-bname-00.txt in case anyone is curious about my previous comments dismissing CNAME based approaches, i spoke with yao and lee about it and we all agreed that both approaches (BNAME and zone clones) should be pursued to completion, and that each community who needed equivilence names should select their own approach. BNAME is more or less what i was calling ENAME here a few days ago. i am still preparing a first draft of zone clones. From wretchederpb596@dahbour.com Tue Dec 22 22:09:20 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C59923A68B0; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:09:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -21.383 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-21.383 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_INVITATION=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HS_INDEX_PARAM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FswVjPQqNu08; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:09:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from host-69-146-152-92.ctb-mt.client.bresnan.net (host-69-146-152-92.ctb-mt.client.bresnan.net [69.146.152.92]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED90B3A6820; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:09:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from 69.146.152.92 by ietf.org; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:08:24 -0700 Message-ID: <000d01ca8396$560c4c20$6400a8c0@wretchederpb596> From: To: Subject: I have really miss you! 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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CA8396.560C4C20-- From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 22 22:09:23 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67DA13A68B1 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:09:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: The results of your email commands From: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1766598630==" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:09:21 -0800 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list X-List-Administrivia: yes Sender: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org --===============1766598630== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The results of your email command are provided below. Attached is your original message. - Results: Ignoring non-text/plain MIME parts - Done. --===============1766598630== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsop-request@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: dnsop-request@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C59923A68B0; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:09:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -21.383 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-21.383 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_INVITATION=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HS_INDEX_PARAM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FswVjPQqNu08; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:09:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from host-69-146-152-92.ctb-mt.client.bresnan.net (host-69-146-152-92.ctb-mt.client.bresnan.net [69.146.152.92]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED90B3A6820; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:09:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from 69.146.152.92 by ietf.org; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:08:24 -0700 Message-ID: <000d01ca8396$560c4c20$6400a8c0@wretchederpb596> From: To: Subject: I have really miss you! Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:08:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01CA8396.560C4C20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V 6.00.2900.2180 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CA8396.560C4C20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey! Sofware for the funny prices! Invitation to click ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CA8396.560C4C20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CA8396.560C4C20-- --===============1766598630==-- From wretchederpb596@dahbour.com Tue Dec 22 22:09:20 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C59923A68B0; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:09:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -21.383 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-21.383 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_INVITATION=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HS_INDEX_PARAM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FswVjPQqNu08; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:09:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from host-69-146-152-92.ctb-mt.client.bresnan.net (host-69-146-152-92.ctb-mt.client.bresnan.net [69.146.152.92]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED90B3A6820; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:09:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from 69.146.152.92 by ietf.org; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:08:24 -0700 Message-ID: <000d01ca8396$560c4c20$6400a8c0@wretchederpb596> From: To: Subject: I have really miss you! Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:08:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01CA8396.560C4C20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V 6.00.2900.2180 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CA8396.560C4C20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey! Sofware for the funny prices! Invitation to click ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CA8396.560C4C20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey! Sofware for the funny prices! Invitation to = click
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CA8396.560C4C20-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Dec 23 01:10:15 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B7B728C0E9; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 01:10:15 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Duplicate header field: "Message-ID" X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -94.688 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-94.688 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=9.314, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_BASE64_BLANKS=0.041, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.803, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KubD53XStQE0; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 01:10:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 996A53A680E; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 01:10:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NNN3u-0007gz-MO for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:59:18 +0000 Received: from [159.226.7.146] (helo=cnnic.cn) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NNN3n-0007g1-5X for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:59:11 +0000 Received: (eyou send program); Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:59:08 +0800 Message-ID: <461558748.26145@cnnic.cn> X-EYOUMAIL-SMTPAUTH: yaojk@cnnic.cn Received: from unknown (HELO lenovo47e041cf) (127.0.0.1) by 127.0.0.1 with SMTP; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:59:08 +0800 Message-ID: <63D321230C9146618BB01BBACC5FCE5E@LENOVO47E041CF> From: "YAO Jiankang" To: "Paul Vixie" , References: <461533190.08485@cnnic.cn> <461545863.16326@cnnic.cn> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Fw: I-D Action:draft-yao-dnsext-bname-00.txt Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:59:15 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: DQotLS0tLSBPcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlIC0tLS0tIA0KRnJvbTogIlBhdWwgVml4aWUiIDx2aXhp ZUBpc2Mub3JnPg0KVG86IDxuYW1lZHJvcHBlcnNAb3BzLmlldGYub3JnPg0KU2VudDogV2VkbmVz ZGF5LCBEZWNlbWJlciAyMywgMjAwOSAxOjA1IFBNDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW2Ruc2V4dF0gRnc6 IEktRCBBY3Rpb246ZHJhZnQteWFvLWRuc2V4dC1ibmFtZS0wMC50eHQgDQoNCg0KPj4gRnJvbTog IllBTyBKaWFua2FuZyIgPHlhb2prQGNubmljLmNuPg0KPj4gRGF0ZTogV2VkLCAyMyBEZWMgMjAw OSAwOTo1MzoyMCArMDgwMA0KPj4gDQo+PiAgICBUaGlzIGRyYWZ0IG1heSBoZWxwIHRvIHNvbHZl IHRoZSBwcm9ibGVtIG9mIGJ1bmRsZSBuYW1lcyBvciBlcXVpdmFsZW50DQo+PiAgICBuYW1lcyB3 aGljaCByZXF1aXJlIHRoZSBETlMgdG8gaGF2ZSBhbiBpZGVudGljYWwgcmVzb2x1dGlvbi4gIGFu eQ0KPj4gICAgY29tbWVudHMgYXJlIHdlbGNvbWUuICBUaGFua3MgYSBsb3QuDQo+PiANCj4+IFlh byBKaWFua2FuZw0KPj4gQ05OSUMgICAgIA0KPj4gDQo+PiA+IFRpdGxlICAgICAgICAgICA6IEJ1 bmRsZSBETlMgTmFtZSBSZWRpcmVjdGlvbg0KPj4gPiBBdXRob3IocykgICAgICAgOiBKLiBZYW8s IGV0IGFsLg0KPj4gPiBGaWxlbmFtZSAgICAgICAgOiBkcmFmdC15YW8tZG5zZXh0LWJuYW1lLTAw LnR4dA0KPj4gPiBQYWdlcyAgICAgICAgICAgOiAxMg0KPj4gPiBEYXRlICAgICAgICAgICAgOiAy MDA5LTEyLTIyDQo+PiA+IC4uLg0KPj4gPiBBIFVSTCBmb3IgdGhpcyBJbnRlcm5ldC1EcmFmdCBp czoNCj4+ID4gaHR0cDovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9pbnRlcm5ldC1kcmFmdHMvZHJhZnQteWFvLWRu c2V4dC1ibmFtZS0wMC50eHQNCj4gDQo+IGluIGNhc2UgYW55b25lIGlzIGN1cmlvdXMgYWJvdXQg bXkgcHJldmlvdXMgY29tbWVudHMgZGlzbWlzc2luZyBDTkFNRSBiYXNlZA0KPiBhcHByb2FjaGVz LCBpIHNwb2tlIHdpdGggeWFvIGFuZCBsZWUgYWJvdXQgaXQgYW5kIHdlIGFsbCBhZ3JlZWQgdGhh dCBib3RoDQo+IGFwcHJvYWNoZXMgKEJOQU1FIGFuZCB6b25lIGNsb25lcykgc2hvdWxkIGJlIHB1 cnN1ZWQgdG8gY29tcGxldGlvbiwgYW5kDQo+IHRoYXQgZWFjaCBjb21tdW5pdHkgd2hvIG5lZWRl ZCBlcXVpdmlsZW5jZSBuYW1lcyBzaG91bGQgc2VsZWN0IHRoZWlyIG93bg0KPiBhcHByb2FjaC4N Cg0KKzENCg0KPiANCj4gQk5BTUUgaXMgbW9yZSBvciBsZXNzIHdoYXQgaSB3YXMgY2FsbGluZyBF TkFNRSBoZXJlIGEgZmV3IGRheXMgYWdvLg0KDQphbG1vc3Qgc2FtZQ0KDQo+IA0KPiBpIGFtIHN0 aWxsIHByZXBhcmluZyBhIGZpcnN0IGRyYWZ0IG9mIHpvbmUgY2xvbmVzLg0KDQorMQ0KDQo+ From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Wed Dec 23 06:58:45 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDE733A68AC for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 06:58:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -18.367 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-18.367 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-4.878, BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_TELESP=1.245, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_RECV_SPAM_DOMN02=1.666, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kv7FZQuIjfm1 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 06:58:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from 200-171-30-186.dsl.telesp.net.br (200-171-30-186.dsl.telesp.net.br [200.171.30.186]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F6093A68D2 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 06:58:38 -0800 (PST) From: Genuine Pfizer (c) Retailer To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Special 80% discount for customer dnsext-archive on all Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091223145838.6F6093A68D2@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 06:58:38 -0800 (PST) Newsletter If you are unable to see the message below, click here to view.

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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Wed Dec 23 06:58:53 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAAB23A680B for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 06:58:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -13.489 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-13.489 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_TELESP=1.245, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_RECV_SPAM_DOMN02=1.666, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 723GyndLh-Br for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 06:58:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from 200-171-30-186.dsl.telesp.net.br (200-171-30-186.dsl.telesp.net.br [200.171.30.186]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D4AE3A68AC for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 06:58:46 -0800 (PST) From: Genuine Pfizer (c) Retailer To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Special 80% discount for customer dnsext-archive on all Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091223145846.6D4AE3A68AC@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 06:58:46 -0800 (PST) Newsletter If you are unable to see the message below, click here to view.

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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Wed Dec 23 08:10:04 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4183D3A6920 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:10:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -62.805 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-62.805 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_95=3, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_DYNAMIC=1.144, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, NUMERIC_HTTP_ADDR=0.001, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, SARE_RECV_SPAM_DOMN0b=1.666, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UjRsTN0qHTJV for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:09:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from 125-231-90-32.dynamic.hinet.net (125-231-90-32.dynamic.hinet.net [125.231.90.32]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BFF33A695C for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:09:56 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA (c) Online Shop To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Valued customer dnsext-archive@ietf.org 80% OFF on Pfizer. Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20091223160956.5BFF33A695C@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:09:56 -0800 (PST) December 2009
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Wed Dec 23 09:13:00 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 872253A69EA for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:13:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -22.883 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-22.883 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-13.382, BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_TELESP=1.245, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MANGLED_OFF=2.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, SARE_RECV_SPAM_DOMN02=1.666, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7zXal5EjjLie for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:12:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from 189-19-16-95.dsl.telesp.net.br (189-19-16-95.dsl.telesp.net.br [189.19.16.95]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 571F028C0D9 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:12:40 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA Store To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Member dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org get 80% 0FF on ALL Pfizer. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091223171240.571F028C0D9@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:12:40 -0800 (PST) Newsletter
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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Wed Dec 23 09:13:43 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D5B83A688C for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:13:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -22.258 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-22.258 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-12.757, BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_TELESP=1.245, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MANGLED_OFF=2.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, SARE_RECV_SPAM_DOMN02=1.666, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J5xko6u1Aq2a for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:13:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from 189-19-16-95.dsl.telesp.net.br (189-19-16-95.dsl.telesp.net.br [189.19.16.95]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D87863A68BB for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:13:35 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA Store To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Member dnsext-archive@ietf.org get 80% 0FF on ALL Pfizer. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091223171335.D87863A68BB@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:13:35 -0800 (PST) Newsletter
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Dec 23 16:26:11 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F39E13A67F9; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:26:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.351 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.351 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.248, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bUyr5vr54lIk; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:26:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAACD3A67A6; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:26:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NNbMQ-000Evs-8j for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 00:15:22 +0000 Received: from [193.1.169.37] (helo=cali.ucd.ie) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NNbMJ-000Etm-1N for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 00:15:15 +0000 Received: from conversion-daemon.cali.ucd.ie by cali.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.03 (built Sep 22 2005)) id <0KV400M01R4XW600@cali.ucd.ie> (original mail from Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie) for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 00:15:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.0.1.177] (bark.no8.be [83.141.81.52]) by cali.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.03 (built Sep 22 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0KV40074GRCRV000@cali.ucd.ie>; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 00:15:12 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 00:14:51 +0000 From: Niall O'Reilly Subject: Re: [dnsext] Fw: I-D Action:draft-yao-dnsext-bname-00.txt In-reply-to: <461533190.08485@cnnic.cn> To: YAO Jiankang Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie Message-id: <4B32B27B.6070400@ucd.ie> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <461533190.08485@cnnic.cn> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: YAO Jiankang wrote: > Dear all, > > This draft may help to solve the problem of bundle names or equivalent names > which require the DNS to have an identical resolution. > any comments are welcome. Specification of how to check for, and to deal with, BNAME at the node itself seems to be missing at step 3, case 'a', without which BNAME will simply be equivalent to DNAME. < -- snip -- > 3. Start matching down, label by label, in the zone. The matching process can terminate several ways: a. If the whole of QNAME is matched, we have found the node. If the data at the node is a CNAME, and QTYPE doesn't match CNAME, copy the CNAME RR into the answer section of the response, change QNAME to the canonical name in the CNAME RR, and go back to step 1. < -- add text to specify handling of BNAME at target node itself -- > If the data at the node is a BNAME, and QTYPE doesn't match BNAME, copy the BNAME RR and also a corresponding, synthesized CNAME RR into the answer section of the response, change QNAME to the name carried as RDATA in the BNAME RR, and go back to step 1. < -- end added text -- > Otherwise, copy all RRs which match QTYPE into the answer section and go to step 6. < -- snip -- > IHTH Niall O'Reilly From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Dec 23 19:01:47 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6120E3A688C; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 19:01:47 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Duplicate header field: "Message-ID" X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -96.112 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-96.112 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=9.643, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_BASE64_BLANKS=0.041, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.803, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rfwuphAhP2I4; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 19:01:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9691C3A67DB; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 19:01:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NNdpq-0003sU-8a for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 02:53:54 +0000 Received: from [159.226.7.146] (helo=cnnic.cn) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NNdpj-0003ry-EI for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 02:53:47 +0000 Received: (eyou send program); Thu, 24 Dec 2009 10:53:43 +0800 Message-ID: <461623223.29715@cnnic.cn> X-EYOUMAIL-SMTPAUTH: yaojk@cnnic.cn Received: from unknown (HELO lenovo47e041cf) (127.0.0.1) by 127.0.0.1 with SMTP; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 10:53:43 +0800 Message-ID: From: "YAO Jiankang" To: "Niall O'Reilly" Cc: , References: <461533190.08485@cnnic.cn> <461615032.16699@cnnic.cn> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Fw: I-D Action:draft-yao-dnsext-bname-00.txt Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 10:53:55 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. 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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Thu Dec 24 00:59:10 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE4DC3A6A37 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 00:59:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -44.165 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-44.165 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_CZ=0.445, HOST_EQ_BROADBND=1.118, HOST_EQ_CZ=0.904, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7N+DQsUvAtjE for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 00:59:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from 123.227.broadband13.iol.cz (123.227.broadband13.iol.cz [90.180.227.123]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 896D73A69AC for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 00:59:03 -0800 (PST) From: Genuine Pfizer (c) Retailer To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Special 80% discount for customer dnsext-archive on all Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091224085903.896D73A69AC@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 00:59:03 -0800 (PST) Newsletter If you are unable to see the message below, click here to view.

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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Thu Dec 24 01:27:41 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A9243A6807 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 01:27:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -76.625 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-76.625 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_RO=1.235, HOST_EQ_RO=0.904, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, NUMERIC_HTTP_ADDR=0.001, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c55uTPZ0KC-O for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 01:27:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from dyn-85.186.119.125.tm.upcnet.ro (dyn-85.186.119.125.tm.upcnet.ro [85.186.119.125]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EDCA3A68FE for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 01:27:40 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA (c) Online Shop To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Valued customer dnsext-archive@ietf.org 80% OFF on Pfizer. Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20091224092740.2EDCA3A68FE@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 01:27:40 -0800 (PST) December 2009
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Thu Dec 24 01:27:49 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E1D63A6941 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 01:27:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -76.626 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-76.626 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_RO=1.235, HOST_EQ_RO=0.904, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Wim-HMPCXDAD for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 01:27:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from dyn-85.186.119.125.tm.upcnet.ro (dyn-85.186.119.125.tm.upcnet.ro [85.186.119.125]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43E013A68FE for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 01:27:48 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA (c) Online Shop To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Valued customer dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org 80% OFF on Pfizer. Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20091224092748.43E013A68FE@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 01:27:48 -0800 (PST) December 2009
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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Thu Dec 24 10:29:59 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 563AF3A6875 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 10:29:59 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: Pfizer \256 Customer Servi[...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -36.376 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-36.376 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_DYNAMIC_SPLIT_IP=3.493, HELO_EQ_IP_ADDR=1.119, HOST_EQ_USERONOCOM=1.444, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sZ7HVXMMOThB for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 10:29:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from 85.155.144.40.dyn.user.ono.com (85.155.144.40.dyn.user.ono.com [85.155.144.40]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CACB73A6920 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 10:29:51 -0800 (PST) From: Pfizer ® Customer Service To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Special offer dnsext-archive@ietf.org receive 70% OFF on Pfizer. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091224182951.CACB73A6920@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 10:29:51 -0800 (PST) Pfizer ® 80% OFF
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Thu Dec 24 10:30:04 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4E533A6920 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 10:30:04 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: Pfizer \256 Customer Servi[...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -36.376 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-36.376 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_DYNAMIC_SPLIT_IP=3.493, HELO_EQ_IP_ADDR=1.119, HOST_EQ_USERONOCOM=1.444, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n4qNniL8NFOO for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 10:29:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from 85.155.144.40.dyn.user.ono.com (85.155.144.40.dyn.user.ono.com [85.155.144.40]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7692E3A688B for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 10:29:57 -0800 (PST) From: Pfizer ® Customer Service To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Special offer dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org receive 70% OFF on Pfizer. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091224182957.7692E3A688B@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 10:29:57 -0800 (PST) Pfizer ® 80% OFF
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From entmib-archive@lists.ietf.org Thu Dec 24 12:31:03 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CF293A68B6 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 12:31:03 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 12:30:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from andreasarjona.com (unknown [201.82.127.125]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 8BE913A6904 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 12:30:42 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: urgent To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20091224203049.8BE913A6904@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 12:30:42 -0800 (PST)
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Fri Dec 25 08:11:36 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DFCC3A6831 for ; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 08:11:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -54.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-54.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x2lwP6Q085yb for ; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 08:11:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from bl7-78-36.dsl.telepac.pt (bl7-78-36.dsl.telepac.pt [85.240.78.36]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB3043A6957 for ; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 08:11:28 -0800 (PST) From: Genuine Pfizer (c) Retailer To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Special 80% discount for customer dnsext-archive on all Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091225161128.EB3043A6957@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 08:11:28 -0800 (PST) Newsletter If you are unable to see the message below, click here to view.

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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CA8581.4AE138F0-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 25 11:28:18 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE11B3A6923; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 11:28:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4lSUlcKj1RYU; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 11:28:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4ABD3A691F; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 11:28:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NOFcb-000CLc-B6 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 19:14:45 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:2e0:81ff:fe52:9971] (helo=mail2.ntp.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NOFcV-000CLD-14 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 19:14:39 +0000 Received: from firewall.antoniuk.lan (mail.antoniuk.md [65.86.158.146]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail2.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01DB63988C; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 19:14:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mayer@gis.net) Received: from cust-63-209-233-155.bos-dynamic.gis.net ([63.209.233.155] helo=[10.10.10.100]) by firewall.antoniuk.lan with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NOFcO-0000tv-JL; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 14:14:32 -0500 Message-ID: <4B350F07.5050705@gis.net> Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 14:14:15 -0500 From: Danny Mayer Reply-To: mayer@gis.net User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Edward Lewis Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] we've been assuming that only one label matters References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-kostecke.net-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-kostecke.net-MailScanner-From: mayer@gis.net Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Edward Lewis wrote: > Catching up on the various proposals, it seems that we are thinking in > terms of making X.tld. and Y.tld. equivalent but not thinking of > X1.X0.tld. and Y1.Y0.tld. as needing to be equivalent. > Actuslly you really mean X.tld. and Y.tle. since these are likely to be cross-TLD issues. Then you would have X1.X0.tld. and Y1.Y0.tle. I suspect that the latter is really just another case of the former. > DNAME and CNAME rewrites won't handle this, nor CLONE. Multiple > delegations could but that would result in an explosion of zones. > > Is there an approach which involved the stubs learning to "normalize?" > the query before sending it on - or building this into the first name > server to see the query? (Even if equivalence is restricted to names, > not types.) > Danny -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 25 12:00:55 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D111E3A67F6; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 12:00:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.562, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8CVtuuRd1JpH; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 12:00:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D0743A67A1; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 12:00:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NOGFg-000FNX-DP for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 19:55:08 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NOGFY-000FMs-Sr for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 19:55:00 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A103A3AD6 for ; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 19:55:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] we've been assuming that only one label matters In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 25 Dec 2009 14:14:15 EST." <4B350F07.5050705@gis.net> References: <4B350F07.5050705@gis.net> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 19:55:00 +0000 Message-ID: <31698.1261770900@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > Edward Lewis wrote: > > Catching up on the various proposals, it seems that we are thinking in > > terms of making X.tld. and Y.tld. equivalent but not thinking of > > X1.X0.tld. and Y1.Y0.tld. as needing to be equivalent. i'm thinking of both cases. > Actuslly you really mean X.tld. and Y.tle. since these are likely to be > cross-TLD issues. Then you would have X1.X0.tld. and Y1.Y0.tle. I > suspect that the latter is really just another case of the former. agreed, they are equivilent. > > DNAME and CNAME rewrites won't handle this, nor CLONE. Multiple > > delegations could but that would result in an explosion of zones. in my thinking about zone clones, there is such an explosion, but it's only felt by electrons and photons, not by humans. and it does handle the cases of (X1.X0.tld = Y1.Y0.tle) and (X1.X0.tld = Y1.Y0.tld). > > Is there an approach which involved the stubs learning to "normalize?" > > the query before sending it on - or building this into the first name > > server to see the query? (Even if equivalence is restricted to names, > > not types.) if someone proposes such a mechanism i predict that it would succeed in the sense that IETF would agree to standardize it, but when we get to the point where we "let the market decide" between BNAME, zone clones, and stub-aware, the market will not choose stub-aware for at least the first decade or so. 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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CA85C6.3B43FA50-- From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 25 16:56:42 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 142CB3A6827 for ; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 16:56:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: The results of your email commands From: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0922683884==" Message-ID: Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 16:56:40 -0800 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list X-List-Administrivia: yes Sender: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org --===============0922683884== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The results of your email command are provided below. Attached is your original message. - Results: Ignoring non-text/plain MIME parts - Done. --===============0922683884== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsop-request@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: dnsop-request@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3304A3A688E; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 16:56:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -77 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-77 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_FAKE_RCVD_LINE_B=5.777, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_DYNAMIC_SPLIT_IP=3.493, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7a9q4UJvgYSf; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 16:56:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from 249.175.103-84.rev.gaoland.net (249.175.103-84.rev.gaoland.net [84.103.175.249]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAEA53A6827; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 16:56:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from 84.103.175.249 by lists.ietf.org; Sat, 26 Dec 2009 01:56:17 +0100 Message-ID: <000d01ca85c6$3b43fa50$6400a8c0@evergladectp> From: To: Subject: Natali Russia, updated her profile Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 01:56:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01CA85C6.3B43FA50" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CA85C6.3B43FA50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable you have 6 unread messages from ladies Just a quick click ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CA85C6.3B43FA50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CA85C6.3B43FA50-- --===============0922683884==-- From evergladectp@omegacoord.com Fri Dec 25 16:56:40 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3304A3A688E; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 16:56:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -77 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-77 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_FAKE_RCVD_LINE_B=5.777, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_DYNAMIC_SPLIT_IP=3.493, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7a9q4UJvgYSf; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 16:56:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from 249.175.103-84.rev.gaoland.net (249.175.103-84.rev.gaoland.net [84.103.175.249]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAEA53A6827; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 16:56:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from 84.103.175.249 by lists.ietf.org; Sat, 26 Dec 2009 01:56:17 +0100 Message-ID: <000d01ca85c6$3b43fa50$6400a8c0@evergladectp> From: To: Subject: Natali Russia, updated her profile Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 01:56:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01CA85C6.3B43FA50" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CA85C6.3B43FA50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable you have 6 unread messages from ladies Just a quick click ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CA85C6.3B43FA50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CA85C6.3B43FA50-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Dec 25 19:49:20 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E1173A680F; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 19:49:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.166 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.166 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.767, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_URI_EQUALS=1.666, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TVkhGd8SjmTt; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 19:49:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 719833A6867; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 19:49:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NONRz-000Pu1-1a for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sat, 26 Dec 2009 03:36:19 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:2e0:81ff:fe52:9971] (helo=mail2.ntp.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NONRq-000PtT-GW for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 26 Dec 2009 03:36:10 +0000 Received: from firewall.antoniuk.lan (mail.antoniuk.md [65.86.158.146]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail2.ntp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F402239886; Sat, 26 Dec 2009 03:36:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mayer@gis.net) Received: from cust-63-209-233-155.bos-dynamic.gis.net ([63.209.233.155] helo=[10.10.10.100]) by firewall.antoniuk.lan with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NONRc-0000DD-47; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 22:35:56 -0500 Message-ID: <4B35848A.9030004@gis.net> Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 22:35:38 -0500 From: Danny Mayer Reply-To: mayer@gis.net User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vaggelis Segredakis Cc: 'Florian Weimer' , 'Edward Lewis' , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, 'Sotiris Panaretou' , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=27=3F=3F=3F=3F=3F=3F=3F_=3F=3F=3F=3F=3F=3F=3F=27?= Subject: Re: [dnsext] we've been assuming that only one label matters References: <82pr68ny86.fsf@mid.bfk.de> <7726422CDE7A4E6A8A1470B57D87835B@ics.forth.gr> In-Reply-To: <7726422CDE7A4E6A8A1470B57D87835B@ics.forth.gr> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-kostecke.net-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-kostecke.net-MailScanner-From: mayer@gis.net Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Vaggelis Segredakis wrote: > Dear Florian, > > Our request is to make > > Name1.gr > Name2.gr > Name3.gr > Name4.gr > > working one like the other, using name1.gr as master name. > On a non-DNSSEC BIND9 server the master can be defined very simply with relative names in the zone for all labels (including the SOA). Slaves still need separate zone files. I am sure that other implementations can do similar things. This all changes of course when you add DNSSEC records to the mix. > So > > Name1.gr IN NS ns1.name1.gr > > Name2 xNAME Name1 > Name3 xNAME Name1 > Name4 xNAME Name1 > See above. Without DNSSEC this can easily done today. > This way, with a little tweaking > > user@name2.gr| > user@name3.gr|-> user@name1.gr > user@name4.gr| > That's a matter for the mail server. We don't need to deal with that here. > http://name2.gr=http://name3.gr=http://name4.gr = http://name1.gr > This is a matter for the HTTP server. We don't need to deal with that here. > The same goes for ftp etc. > Ditto. > However, since we will all pretty soon have the opportunity to register .GreekIDN, this service will have to extend to the level > > [Name1.gr. xNAME Name2.GreekIDN.] or even [gr. xNAME GreekIDN.] > This does not change what I said above. So far everything I've read indicates that this is a DNS management problem rather than a protocol problem. The only servers that need to know anything about the fact they they are really the "same" zone is the master and the slaves, ie the authorative servers. Nothing else needs to worry about it. So the problem comes down to managing this. The main part of the zone, ie all of the A, AAAA, NS, MX, etc. records are the same and can be include either by a file or a database configuration of some kind. The main issue then is managing the DNSSEC specific records for each domain since that's specific to the name of the domain. So what we seem to need here are better management tools. I've never operated a major domain so I don't know if I have misunderstood the problem or do not see the major headaches that such an operator or registrar needs to deal with. Danny > Best Regards, > > Vaggelis Segredakis -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sat Dec 26 01:44:05 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A32D3A688D; Sat, 26 Dec 2009 01:44:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id akGenDwNll5E; Sat, 26 Dec 2009 01:44:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DEE73A682C; Sat, 26 Dec 2009 01:44:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NOT1C-0000Jn-Uk for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sat, 26 Dec 2009 09:33:02 +0000 Received: from [89.16.176.221] (helo=mail.avalus.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NOT15-0000JK-Q2 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 26 Dec 2009 09:32:56 +0000 Received: from [192.168.100.114] (87-194-71-186.bethere.co.uk [87.194.71.186]) by mail.avalus.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C89BAC566C5; Sat, 26 Dec 2009 09:32:52 +0000 (GMT) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 09:32:55 +0000 From: Alex Bligh Reply-To: Alex Bligh To: Paul Vixie , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org cc: Alex Bligh Subject: Re: [dnsext] we've been assuming that only one label matters Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <31698.1261770900@nsa.vix.com> References: <4B350F07.5050705@gis.net> <31698.1261770900@nsa.vix.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: --On 25 December 2009 19:55:00 +0000 Paul Vixie wrote: >> > DNAME and CNAME rewrites won't handle this, nor CLONE. Multiple >> > delegations could but that would result in an explosion of zones. > > in my thinking about zone clones, there is such an explosion, but it's > only felt by electrons and photons, not by humans. and it does handle > the cases of (X1.X0.tld = Y1.Y0.tle) and (X1.X0.tld = Y1.Y0.tld). +/- effects on caching. -- Alex Bligh From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sat Dec 26 09:40:12 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2757D3A67A7; Sat, 26 Dec 2009 09:40:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.778 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.778 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.821, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zXgB8OQWQF+m; Sat, 26 Dec 2009 09:40:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63EFA3A65A5; Sat, 26 Dec 2009 09:40:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NOaPa-000C2I-F8 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sat, 26 Dec 2009 17:26:42 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NOaPU-000C0p-El for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 26 Dec 2009 17:26:36 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7D89A3C80 for ; Sat, 26 Dec 2009 17:26:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] we've been assuming that only one label matters In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 26 Dec 2009 09:32:55 GMT." References: <4B350F07.5050705@gis.net> <31698.1261770900@nsa.vix.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 17:26:35 +0000 Message-ID: <86075.1261848395@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 09:32:55 +0000 > From: Alex Bligh > > >> > DNAME and CNAME rewrites won't handle this, nor CLONE. Multiple > >> > delegations could but that would result in an explosion of zones. > > > > in my thinking about zone clones, there is such an explosion, but it's > > only felt by electrons and photons, not by humans. and it does handle > > the cases of (X1.X0.tld = Y1.Y0.tle) and (X1.X0.tld = Y1.Y0.tld). > > +/- effects on caching. yes. only a wire change involving stub awareness could avoid effects on caching. and as i've said, if someone proposes such a wire change, i predict that it would be accepted as a WG item and eventually standardized. however, because of the long tail on DNS systemwide upgrades, if alternatives such as BNAME and/or "clone zones" are also standardized, i also predict that the market would choose among those alternatives, caching be damned, it's instant functionality. there are some value judgements to be made if the WG decides it wants a better problem statement before deciding whether to accept proposals. for example perhaps we don't want to standardize more than one approach to this, or perhaps we don't want to standardize an approach which is expensive in terms of cache, or which is explosive in the number of (virtual) zones. in those cases we might not be able to answer the original problem statement ("names which are the same as other names") and we would go back to the rest of the internet and say "because of DNS limitations we can only offer you names which are almost the same as other names"). 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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Sat Dec 26 17:01:32 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B5D43A6886 for ; Sat, 26 Dec 2009 17:01:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -33.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-33.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sb3saVnpneBs for ; Sat, 26 Dec 2009 17:01:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from 174-18-251-98.tcso.qwest.net (174-18-240-212.tcso.qwest.net [174.18.240.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2304F3A6882 for ; Sat, 26 Dec 2009 17:01:25 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA (c) Online Shop To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Valued customer dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org 80% OFF on Pfizer. Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20091227010125.2304F3A6882@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 17:01:25 -0800 (PST) December 2009
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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Sat Dec 26 19:52:55 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 437C23A67AE for ; Sat, 26 Dec 2009 19:52:55 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: Pfizer \256 Customer Servi[...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -26.156 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-26.156 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-3.206, BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id InYQwyuNqWif for ; Sat, 26 Dec 2009 19:52:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from host235.190-228-149.telecom.net.ar (host235.190-228-149.telecom.net.ar [190.228.149.235]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C91D73A63EB for ; Sat, 26 Dec 2009 19:52:47 -0800 (PST) From: Pfizer ® Customer Service To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Special offer dnsext-archive@ietf.org receive 70% OFF on Pfizer. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091227035247.C91D73A63EB@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 19:52:47 -0800 (PST) Pfizer ® 80% OFF
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Sat Dec 26 19:53:08 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E36A3A6774 for ; Sat, 26 Dec 2009 19:53:08 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: Pfizer \256 Customer Servi[...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -25.631 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-25.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=6.819, BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rwT9f8fqL+dk for ; Sat, 26 Dec 2009 19:53:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from host235.190-228-149.telecom.net.ar (host235.190-228-149.telecom.net.ar [190.228.149.235]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34BB73A63EB for ; Sat, 26 Dec 2009 19:52:59 -0800 (PST) From: Pfizer ® Customer Service To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Special offer dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org receive 70% OFF on Pfizer. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091227035300.34BB73A63EB@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 19:52:59 -0800 (PST) Pfizer ® 80% OFF
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Dec 27 00:40:40 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5293E3A67B1; Sun, 27 Dec 2009 00:40:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dMAtF6+EGZD2; Sun, 27 Dec 2009 00:40:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96DA73A67A7; Sun, 27 Dec 2009 00:40:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NOoUV-000LHy-7Z for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sun, 27 Dec 2009 08:28:43 +0000 Received: from [89.16.176.221] (helo=mail.avalus.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NOoUP-000LHe-3J for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 27 Dec 2009 08:28:37 +0000 Received: from [192.168.100.114] (87-194-71-186.bethere.co.uk [87.194.71.186]) by mail.avalus.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 12E1FC566C3; Sun, 27 Dec 2009 08:28:34 +0000 (GMT) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 08:28:39 +0000 From: Alex Bligh Reply-To: Alex Bligh To: Paul Vixie , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org cc: Alex Bligh Subject: Re: [dnsext] we've been assuming that only one label matters Message-ID: <0E1A4C8B1A9F1F4A7B8ED1D0@nimrod.local> In-Reply-To: <86075.1261848395@nsa.vix.com> References: <4B350F07.5050705@gis.net> <31698.1261770900@nsa.vix.com> <86075.1261848395@nsa.vix.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: --On 26 December 2009 17:26:35 +0000 Paul Vixie wrote: >> > in my thinking about zone clones, there is such an explosion, but it's >> > only felt by electrons and photons, not by humans. and it does handle >> > the cases of (X1.X0.tld = Y1.Y0.tle) and (X1.X0.tld = Y1.Y0.tld). >> >> +/- effects on caching. > > yes. only a wire change involving stub awareness could avoid effects on > caching. What I was thinking was that an approach where any equivalent label is equal to any other has a possible O(a^n) effect on cache, whereas an approach where at each level there is a given label (which might be chosen by the operator, or chosen arbitrarily, such as 'alphabetically first') which is the canonical one has an O(n) effect on cache. It might be possible to push this information on the wire to the resolver in addition to coping with non-compliant resolvers. So, in the above example (using an alphabetic rule, or assuming the operator chose labels x1, x0, tld in preference to the alternatives) when looking up tle would get cached by a compliant as a ?NAME for tld, y0 as a ?NAME for x0 and y1 as a ?NAME for x1. There would never be any need to store the 8 combinations. A bit like DNAME synthesis. -- Alex Bligh From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Sun Dec 27 01:04:35 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51F683A67FB for ; Sun, 27 Dec 2009 01:04:35 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Official Resel[...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -28.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-28.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_08=1.787, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_1=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_PH_SURBL=1.787, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DSLqmXXufmLb for ; Sun, 27 Dec 2009 01:04:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from 86-40-118-181-dynamic.b-ras3.mvw.galway.eircom.net (86-40-118-181-dynamic.b-ras3.mvw.galway.eircom.net [86.40.118.181]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 852403A67E5 for ; Sun, 27 Dec 2009 01:04:34 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Official Reseller To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: For dnsext-archive! 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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Sun Dec 27 03:20:10 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D9B83A6875 for ; Sun, 27 Dec 2009 03:20:10 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Official Resel[...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -35.626 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-35.626 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_60=1, HELO_EQ_RU=0.595, HOST_EQ_RU=0.875, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_08=1.787, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_1=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_PH_SURBL=1.787, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EfdJcde4Acab for ; Sun, 27 Dec 2009 03:20:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.com (e179163074.adsl.alicedsl.de [85.179.163.74]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 6FB8B3A6873 for ; Sun, 27 Dec 2009 03:20:09 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Official Reseller To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: For dnsext-archive! Discount ID57294 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091227112009.6FB8B3A6873@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 03:20:09 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Dec 27 03:52:23 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FC503A688F; Sun, 27 Dec 2009 03:52:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IdRSwohVxN6Q; Sun, 27 Dec 2009 03:52:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6509B3A680C; Sun, 27 Dec 2009 03:52:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NOrXg-0009nE-9n for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sun, 27 Dec 2009 11:44:12 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:36::28] (helo=white.flame.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NOrXX-0009mL-9U for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 27 Dec 2009 11:44:03 +0000 Received: from white.flame.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by white.flame.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55A6B17D1C3 for ; Sun, 27 Dec 2009 11:44:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: from bigmac.home.flame.org (ip68-97-48-147.ok.ok.cox.net [68.97.48.147]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by white.flame.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B33BF17D1AE for ; Sun, 27 Dec 2009 11:44:01 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <4B374878.7040002@isc.org> Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 05:43:52 -0600 From: Michael Graff User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] we've been assuming that only one label matters References: <4B350F07.5050705@gis.net> <31698.1261770900@nsa.vix.com> <86075.1261848395@nsa.vix.com> In-Reply-To: <86075.1261848395@nsa.vix.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=BE9E0FA6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I've been sitting out of this discussion so far, but can't help but chime in just before driving for a day. Give people plenty of time to flame me. :) If what is wanted is a way to logically clone a zone, and there is a need for it today, people will use whatever tricks available to them today. This will include not using DNSSEC. Topics like caching are to me a side discussion. Caching is important, but not strictly required for a client to work properly. Big ISPs will want to use big caches, but those big caches can cope with additional data. Perhaps they'll throw out some little-used data as a side effect and keep some other little-used data in its place. In a very large cache, I suspect the histogram of times used drops off fairly quickly. I therefore think any concern about how method A affects the cache, if all it does it cause more data to go into it, is not important. If it causes data to not be cachable at all, well, that's another issue, but no one has proposed that. I personally think it's a tool issue, and no protocol changes need to happen. I don't see why the IETF needs to solve a problem using protocol when it's fairly clear to me that any real solution involving protocol changes is more or less a non-starter. The purpose of publishing zone data is that people will use it. If no one today can use this new proposed protocol, no publisher will use it either. Even when 80% of the clients out there support it, 20% don't, so no one will risk their domain going dark. What is needed here, if a protocol solution IS the answer, is a way to do what people do today -- just sign the same data N times -- and a protocol to make it more efficient for clients which support this new protocol in the future. This encourages the end-users to upgrade, and the publishers to use this new protocol in addition to older methods. However, since the risk of upgrading either end-point is very low, it also encourages people to use it. Good luck. :) - --Michael -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAks3SHgACgkQ+NNi0s9NRJ36DgCfYoyVagI/nei0OXOpHp8fCqw9 dN4AoIGiSTo9l+3Pak3OmdlsujUG0ptG =qCj+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Sun Dec 27 10:44:06 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34C3F3A6922 for ; Sun, 27 Dec 2009 10:44:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.03 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.03 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=13.510, BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_TELESP=1.245, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_RECV_SPAM_DOMN02=1.666, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7ajzzcXnYi8B for ; Sun, 27 Dec 2009 10:43:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201-92-86-216.dsl.telesp.net.br (201-92-86-216.dsl.telesp.net.br [201.92.86.216]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 642A83A68E0 for ; Sun, 27 Dec 2009 10:43:57 -0800 (PST) From: Genuine Pfizer (c) Retailer To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Special 80% discount for customer dnsext-archive on all Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091227184357.642A83A68E0@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 10:43:57 -0800 (PST) Newsletter If you are unable to see the message below, click here to view.

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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Sun Dec 27 20:44:31 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DACE53A63EB for ; Sun, 27 Dec 2009 20:44:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -22.973 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-22.973 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MANGLED_OFF=2.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_NJABL_PROXY=1.643, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EaTYCDDZ7pdC for ; Sun, 27 Dec 2009 20:44:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from pc-138-57-83-200.cm.vtr.net (pc-138-57-83-200.cm.vtr.net [200.83.57.138]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF9553A6452 for ; Sun, 27 Dec 2009 20:44:24 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA Store To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Member dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org get 80% 0FF on ALL Pfizer. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091228044424.AF9553A6452@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 20:44:24 -0800 (PST) Newsletter
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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Sun Dec 27 23:29:52 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58B753A6877 for ; Sun, 27 Dec 2009 23:29:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -45.603 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-45.603 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.644, BAYES_99=3.5, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_CZ=0.445, HOST_EQ_BROADBND=1.118, HOST_EQ_CZ=0.904, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Drgxo7AIHbf0 for ; Sun, 27 Dec 2009 23:29:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from 18.86.broadband7.iol.cz (18.86.broadband7.iol.cz [88.102.86.18]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 165D23A6810 for ; Sun, 27 Dec 2009 23:29:44 -0800 (PST) From: Genuine Pfizer (c) Retailer To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Special 80% discount for customer dnsext-archive on all Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091228072945.165D23A6810@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 23:29:44 -0800 (PST) Newsletter If you are unable to see the message below, click here to view.

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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Sun Dec 27 23:30:25 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26C3C3A6810 for ; Sun, 27 Dec 2009 23:30:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -40.604 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-40.604 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.357, BAYES_99=3.5, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_CZ=0.445, HOST_EQ_BROADBND=1.118, HOST_EQ_CZ=0.904, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SX09kkxrcYfm for ; Sun, 27 Dec 2009 23:30:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from 18.86.broadband7.iol.cz (18.86.broadband7.iol.cz [88.102.86.18]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D28113A6859 for ; Sun, 27 Dec 2009 23:30:17 -0800 (PST) From: Genuine Pfizer (c) Retailer To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Special 80% discount for customer dnsext-archive on all Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091228073017.D28113A6859@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 23:30:17 -0800 (PST) Newsletter If you are unable to see the message below, click here to view.

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From rapingp@selectronic.com Mon Dec 28 02:50:32 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB2453A6976; Mon, 28 Dec 2009 02:50:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -60.49 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-60.49 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_FAKE_RCVD_LINE=10.357, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP=1.398, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_DOUBLE_IP_SPAM=3.798, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_RECV_IP_FROMIP1=1.666, SARE_STILLSINGLE=1.66, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vu8NC1Ho7cjb; Mon, 28 Dec 2009 02:50:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from dslb-084-058-097-014.pools.arcor-ip.net (dslb-084-058-097-014.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.58.97.14]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A5CE3A6974; Mon, 28 Dec 2009 02:50:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from 84.58.97.14 by 66.118.156.161; Mon, 28 Dec 2009 11:50:05 +0100 Message-ID: <000d01ca87ab$840b2240$6400a8c0@rapingp> From: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org To: Subject: Marry a gorgeous Russian girl. Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 11:50:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01CA87AB.840B2240" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE 6.00.2800.1478 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CA87AB.840B2240 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Still single?look at my profile, Olga from Russia Enter without knocking ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CA87AB.840B2240 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Still single?look at my profile, Olga from Russia= Enter without knocking=
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CA87AB.840B2240-- From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 28 02:50:34 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 737693A696C for ; Mon, 28 Dec 2009 02:50:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: The results of your email commands From: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1212806755==" Message-ID: Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 02:50:33 -0800 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list X-List-Administrivia: yes Sender: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org --===============1212806755== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The results of your email command are provided below. Attached is your original message. - Results: Ignoring non-text/plain MIME parts - Done. --===============1212806755== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsop-request@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: dnsop-request@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB2453A6976; Mon, 28 Dec 2009 02:50:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -60.49 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-60.49 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_FAKE_RCVD_LINE=10.357, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP=1.398, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_DOUBLE_IP_SPAM=3.798, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_RECV_IP_FROMIP1=1.666, SARE_STILLSINGLE=1.66, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vu8NC1Ho7cjb; Mon, 28 Dec 2009 02:50:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from dslb-084-058-097-014.pools.arcor-ip.net (dslb-084-058-097-014.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.58.97.14]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A5CE3A6974; Mon, 28 Dec 2009 02:50:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from 84.58.97.14 by 66.118.156.161; Mon, 28 Dec 2009 11:50:05 +0100 Message-ID: <000d01ca87ab$840b2240$6400a8c0@rapingp> From: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org To: Subject: Marry a gorgeous Russian girl. Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 11:50:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01CA87AB.840B2240" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE 6.00.2800.1478 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CA87AB.840B2240 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Still single?look at my profile, Olga from Russia Enter without knocking ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CA87AB.840B2240 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Still single?look at my profile, Olga from Russia= Enter without knocking=
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CA87AB.840B2240-- --===============1212806755==-- From rapingp@selectronic.com Mon Dec 28 02:50:32 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB2453A6976; Mon, 28 Dec 2009 02:50:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -60.49 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-60.49 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_FAKE_RCVD_LINE=10.357, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP=1.398, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_DOUBLE_IP_SPAM=3.798, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_RECV_IP_FROMIP1=1.666, SARE_STILLSINGLE=1.66, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vu8NC1Ho7cjb; Mon, 28 Dec 2009 02:50:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from dslb-084-058-097-014.pools.arcor-ip.net (dslb-084-058-097-014.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.58.97.14]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A5CE3A6974; Mon, 28 Dec 2009 02:50:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from 84.58.97.14 by 66.118.156.161; Mon, 28 Dec 2009 11:50:05 +0100 Message-ID: <000d01ca87ab$840b2240$6400a8c0@rapingp> From: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org To: Subject: Marry a gorgeous Russian girl. Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 11:50:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01CA87AB.840B2240" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE 6.00.2800.1478 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CA87AB.840B2240 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Still single?look at my profile, Olga from Russia Enter without knocking ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CA87AB.840B2240 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Still single?look at my profile, Olga from Russia= Enter without knocking=
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CA87AB.840B2240-- From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Mon Dec 28 02:55:11 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37FC83A68DF for ; Mon, 28 Dec 2009 02:55:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -94.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-94.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6CKvykETV257 for ; Mon, 28 Dec 2009 02:55:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from pD9EB938B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (pD9EB938B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [217.235.147.139]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE38F3A68D5 for ; Mon, 28 Dec 2009 02:55:09 -0800 (PST) From: New Message To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: You have new mail from Olga MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091228105509.EE38F3A68D5@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 02:55:09 -0800 (PST) Newsletter You have new mail from Olga
http://profiles.yahoo.com/blog/W7Q7QYBCPQ5WDDXPX3PSQBQOZA From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Mon Dec 28 02:55:25 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 788333A68D5 for ; Mon, 28 Dec 2009 02:55:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -96.41 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-96.41 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_80=2, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7lBULsCm-ymQ for ; Mon, 28 Dec 2009 02:55:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from pD9EB938B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (pD9EB938B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [217.235.147.139]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BCD73A68A9 for ; Mon, 28 Dec 2009 02:55:24 -0800 (PST) From: New Message To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Natali Russia, updated her profile MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091228105524.4BCD73A68A9@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 02:55:24 -0800 (PST) Newsletter Natali Russia, updated her profile
http://profiles.yahoo.com/blog/FAB2MSGRXZJOLAJRF4ATAYGOUM From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Mon Dec 28 04:00:47 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05F8C3A6870 for ; Mon, 28 Dec 2009 04:00:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -80.618 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-80.618 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, FB_NUMYO2=10.357, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_HU=1.35, HOST_EQ_HU=1.245, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VVhHHRCi1pkI for ; Mon, 28 Dec 2009 04:00:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from 189-47-240-57.dsl.telesp.net.br (189-47-240-57.dsl.telesp.net.br [189.47.240.57]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29DF73A687D for ; Mon, 28 Dec 2009 04:00:45 -0800 (PST) From: Russian Dating Site To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: I am Nina, 27 y`o Russia (dating) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20091228120046.29DF73A687D@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 04:00:45 -0800 (PST) I am Nina I am 27 y.o I am from Russia Please look through my profile and let me know if you have interest. I wish to have a strong family, and you? waiting for your reply http://profiles.yahoo.com/blog/Q4BW56ACENIP74FQYHU6PISJMU From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Mon Dec 28 04:00:51 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 909EC3A68AE for ; Mon, 28 Dec 2009 04:00:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -85.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-85.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_80=2, FB_NUMYO2=10.357, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W37zjLp1VJzV for ; Mon, 28 Dec 2009 04:00:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from 189-47-240-57.dsl.telesp.net.br (189-47-240-57.dsl.telesp.net.br [189.47.240.57]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B11CF3A687D for ; Mon, 28 Dec 2009 04:00:50 -0800 (PST) From: Russian Dating Site To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: I am Nina, 27 y`o Russia (dating) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20091228120050.B11CF3A687D@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 04:00:50 -0800 (PST) I am Nina I am 27 y.o I am from Russia Please look through my profile and let me know if you have interest. I wish to have a strong family, and you? waiting for your reply http://profiles.yahoo.com/blog/7I4S7KVUK75FDP4EMY2D3FV3KI From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Dec 28 09:45:14 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C50353A6919; Mon, 28 Dec 2009 09:45:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.427 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.427 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.672, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xcUN3QsSQpqN; Mon, 28 Dec 2009 09:45:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D56973A690E; Mon, 28 Dec 2009 09:45:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NPJSo-0009dO-T6 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 28 Dec 2009 17:33:02 +0000 Received: from [213.178.172.147] (helo=TR-Sys.de) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NPJSi-0009cP-4L for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 28 Dec 2009 17:32:57 +0000 Received: from ZEUS.TR-Sys.de by w. with ESMTP ($Revision: 1.37.109.26 $/16.3.2) id AA088031555; Mon, 28 Dec 2009 18:32:35 +0100 Received: (from ah@localhost) by z.TR-Sys.de (8.9.3 (PHNE_25183)/8.7.3) id SAA12969; Mon, 28 Dec 2009 18:32:33 +0100 (MEZ) From: Alfred =?hp-roman8?B?SM5uZXM=?= Message-Id: <200912281732.SAA12969@TR-Sys.de> Subject: [dnsext] New Version Notification for draft-gudmundsson-dnsext-srv-clarify-00 (fwd) To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, apps-discuss@ietf.org, tsvwg@ietf.org Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 18:32:33 +0100 (MEZ) Cc: draft-ietf-tsvwg-iana-ports@cabernet.tools.IETF.ORG, port-srv-reg@ietf.org X-Mailer: ELM [$Revision: 1.17.214.3 $] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=hp-roman8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Folks, as a result of the discussions at IETF 76 in Hiroshima, we have submitted the successor of draft-gudmundsson-dns-srv-iana-registry. This draft aligns with draft-ietf-tsvwg-iana-ports, the revised version of which is expected to be submitted soon, as well. Basically, draft-gudmundsson-dnsext-srv-clarify now aims at performing the normative updates and clarifications to RFC 2782 needed to get rid of the ambiguous/missing IANA considerations therein. It uses the revised and unified IANA registry for "Service Names and Port Numbers" (as defined in the upcoming version of draft-ietf-tsvwg-iana-ports): the IETF Transport Protocol names supported by that registry and the Service Names registered in it are the base elements to build the Service Prefix ("_Service._Proto" in RFC 2782) for the owner names of DNS SRV resource records. Further, this draft gives guidelines for service/protocol specification designers on how to make efficient, uniform use of DNS SRV based service discovery and spells out the related documentation requirements. For exceptional cases that cannot contend with the standard naming scheme for Service Labels due to specific requirements and the restrictions imposed on Service Names, an upwards-compatible extended naming scheme for Service Labels is proposed, as an aid for service/protocol designers that would want to adopt this scheme and will then have to precisely document its specific instantiation on a per-service base. The IANA-registered Service Name can still be identified unambiguously on the left-hand side of such Extended Service Labels. This draft targets PS because of the normative updates to RFC 2782. It will be accompanied by another draft (coming out soon) aiming at BCP that will "get rid of the cruft" of the sometimes confusing legacy of various 'service'-related IANA registries. In particular, that draft will freeze and deprecate the WKS IANA registry originally supplied for RFC 952 and give advice to the owners of legacy specifications (inside and outside the IETF) that have made use of SRV records in a "creative" manner that will no more be conformant under draft-gudmundsson-dnsext-srv-clarify and draft-ietf-tsvwg-iana-ports, on how to best migrate to conformant SRV record owner naming and use. Kind regards Alfred HÎnes. -- +------------------------+--------------------------------------------+ | TR-Sys Alfred Hoenes | Alfred Hoenes Dipl.-Math., Dipl.-Phys. | | Gerlinger Strasse 12 | Phone: (+49)7156/9635-0, Fax: -18 | | D-71254 Ditzingen | E-Mail: ah@TR-Sys.de | +------------------------+--------------------------------------------+ ----- Forwarded message from IETF I-D Submission Tool ----- > From: IETF I-D Submission Tool > Message-Id: <20091228145348.6F20A3A6957@core3.amsl.com> > Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 06:53:48 -0800 (PST) > Subject: New Version Notification for > draft-gudmundsson-dnsext-srv-clarify-00 > > A new version of I-D, draft-gudmundsson-dnsext-srv-clarify-00.txt > has been successfuly submitted by Olafur Gudmundsson and posted > to the IETF repository. > > Filename: draft-gudmundsson-dnsext-srv-clarify > Revision: 00 > Title: Clarification of DNS SRV Owner Names > Creation_date: 2009-12-28 > WG ID: Independent Submission > Number_of_pages: 17 > > Abstract: > The DNS SRV record has been specified in RFC 2052 and RFC 2782 for > use in dynamic service discovery for a domain. These two RFCs did > not clearly specify an IANA registry for the names of the services > and their underlying protocols. This document clarifies RFC 2782 > regarding the formation and use of the Service Prefix in the owner > name of SRV records, based on the unified IANA registry for "Service > Names and Port Numbers". > > Status of this Memo > > ... > > The IETF Secretariat. ----- End of forwarded message from IETF I-D Submission Tool ----- From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Tue Dec 29 06:24:22 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFB993A6909 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 2009 06:24:22 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Official Resel[...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -37.596 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-37.596 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lm-6HW5yeHdJ for ; Tue, 29 Dec 2009 06:24:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta.email.webmd.com (unknown [190.11.153.244]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 598943A6971 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 2009 06:24:11 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA ® Official Reseller To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: For dnsext-archive! Discount ID51324 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091229142412.598943A6971@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 06:24:11 -0800 (PST) Welcome to WebMD
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Dec 29 09:22:26 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FD223A68C6; Tue, 29 Dec 2009 09:22:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.372 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.372 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.813, BAYES_40=-0.185, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5kDdL-xn9ovB; Tue, 29 Dec 2009 09:22:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9304A3A635F; Tue, 29 Dec 2009 09:22:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NPfbh-0003jk-Qr for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 29 Dec 2009 17:11:41 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NPfba-0003jH-MS for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Dec 2009 17:11:34 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (69-196-144-230.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DD7582FE8CA1 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 2009 17:11:32 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 12:11:31 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] Reminder: two WGLCs in progress Message-ID: <20091229171131.GJ92420@shinkuro.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Dear colleagues, Just a reminder that we have two WGLCs in progress. There have been very few reviews of any of the drafts posted. The LCs close on 2010-01-09. For details, please see the announcements for one or both: http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2009/msg03148.html http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2009/msg03149.html Thank you for your participation in DNSEXT. Best regards, Andrew -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Tue Dec 29 11:31:04 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0C2D3A6923 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 2009 11:31:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -31.113 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-31.113 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UoZ320q8hr+w for ; Tue, 29 Dec 2009 11:30:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from 200-181-94-171.bsace705.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br (200-103-112-153.bsace705.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.103.112.153]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E0883A6916 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 2009 11:30:52 -0800 (PST) From: Genuine Pfizer c Retailer To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Special 80% discount for customer dnsext-archive on all Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091229193053.1E0883A6916@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 11:30:52 -0800 (PST) Newsletter If you are unable to see the message below, click here to view.

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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Tue Dec 29 11:34:41 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B7EA3A69D5 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 2009 11:34:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -21.113 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-21.113 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NTIqUe9emCSE for ; Tue, 29 Dec 2009 11:34:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from 200-181-94-171.bsace705.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br (200-103-112-153.bsace705.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.103.112.153]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A63D33A6923 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 2009 11:34:03 -0800 (PST) From: Genuine Pfizer c Retailer To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Special 80% discount for customer dnsext-archive on all Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091229193407.A63D33A6923@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 11:34:03 -0800 (PST) Newsletter If you are unable to see the message below, click here to view.

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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Tue Dec 29 12:44:39 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DED33A6927 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 2009 12:44:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -73.069 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-73.069 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z-cto1idpkfG for ; Tue, 29 Dec 2009 12:44:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from 112-7-21-190.adsl.terra.cl (112-7-21-190.adsl.terra.cl [190.21.7.112]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D35E3A6919 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 2009 12:44:31 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA R Online Shop To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Valued customer dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org 80% OFF on Pfizer. Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20091229204432.2D35E3A6919@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 12:44:31 -0800 (PST) December 2009
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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Tue Dec 29 23:21:12 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8418C3A67F5 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 2009 23:21:12 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: <93SmNXtJlUJg> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: VIAGRA \256 Official Site [...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -21.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-21.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_H_PHARMACY=1, GB_I_LETTER=-2, GB_PHARMACY=1, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RATWARE_MS_HASH=1.398, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 93SmNXtJlUJg for ; Tue, 29 Dec 2009 23:21:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta.email.webmd.com (unknown [115.64.31.90]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id D36053A63EB for ; Tue, 29 Dec 2009 23:21:04 -0800 (PST) Content-Return: allowed X-Mailer: devMail.Net (3.0.1854.22234-2) Message-Id: <146b801ca897c$bf097ae0$5a1f4073@DESKTOP> To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: RE: Dear dnsext-archive@ietf.org Pharmacy Message 5463852 From: VIAGRA ® Official Site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 23:21:04 -0800 (PST) Welcome to WebMD
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Dec 30 00:03:01 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A4893A6921; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 00:03:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.42 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.42 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.179, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I+wwm6SkISsA; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 00:03:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E4D63A67DD; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 00:03:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NPtLb-000M4U-57 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 07:51:59 +0000 Received: from [193.227.124.2] (helo=mx01.bfk.de) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NPtLT-000M2s-GA for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 07:51:51 +0000 Received: from mx00.int.bfk.de ([10.119.110.2]) by mx01.bfk.de with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) id 1NPtLM-00014u-7L; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 07:51:44 +0000 Received: by bfk.de with local id 1NPtLN-0000D6-94; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 07:51:45 +0000 To: Andrew Sullivan Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-registry-fixes and draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-alg-allocation WGLC announcement References: <20091219172324.GG52726@shinkuro.com> From: Florian Weimer Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 07:51:45 +0000 In-Reply-To: <20091219172324.GG52726@shinkuro.com> (Andrew Sullivan's message of "Sat\, 19 Dec 2009 12\:23\:25 -0500") Message-ID: <82637odhm6.fsf@mid.bfk.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: * Andrew Sullivan: > This email begins a three week Working Group Last Call for the two > documents draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-alg-allocation-00.txt and > draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-registry-fixes-01.txt. We are calling these > documents together because in our view they naturally complement one > another. draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-registry-fixes-01 undos the upcoming ID assignment for the GOST algorithms. Unless it is guaranteed that the registry draft overtakes the GOST draft in the publishing pipeline, the registry draft must be updated. (I haven't checked if other algorithms are missing from the table in section 2.2.) Is a normative reference to an I-D in a standards-track RFC acceptable? The only reference to OBSOLETE could be replaced with OPTIONAL and a footnote saying that RSAMD5 should be considered broken. draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-alg-allocation-00 looks fine and should go forward. --=20 Florian Weimer BFK edv-consulting GmbH http://www.bfk.de/ Kriegsstra=DFe 100 tel: +49-721-96201-1 D-76133 Karlsruhe fax: +49-721-96201-99 From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Dec 30 06:11:01 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75E603A67EF; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 06:11:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.600, BAYES_50=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_53=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4pdId4kyFcoo; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 06:10:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADDF63A67AF; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 06:10:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NPz65-0005uX-RO for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 14:00:21 +0000 Received: from [195.54.233.70] (helo=hutch.rfc1035.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NPz5z-0005ty-V6 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 14:00:16 +0000 Received: from gromit.rfc1035.com (gromit.rfc1035.com [195.54.233.69]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jim) by hutch.rfc1035.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 21779154283B; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 14:00:13 +0000 (GMT) Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Message-Id: From: Jim Reid To: Michael Graff In-Reply-To: <4B374878.7040002@isc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Subject: Re: [dnsext] we've been assuming that only one label matters Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 14:00:12 +0000 References: <4B350F07.5050705@gis.net> <31698.1261770900@nsa.vix.com> <86075.1261848395@nsa.vix.com> <4B374878.7040002@isc.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 27 Dec 2009, at 11:43, Michael Graff wrote: > I personally think it's a tool issue, and no protocol changes need to > happen. I don't see why the IETF needs to solve a problem using > protocol when it's fairly clear to me that any real solution involving > protocol changes is more or less a non-starter. Well said! Although the problem statement hasn't been written yet, it appears the underlying issue is one of provisioning and/or administrative convenience. If that's the case then it's not something that needs fixing in the DNS protocol. Or should be fixed there IMO. The complications of a protocol solution look very ugly: backwards compatibility with the installed base; impact on DNSSEC deployment; potentially icky corner cases like wildcards, zone cuts and Additional Section processing; impact on caches and resolvers; operational considerations when managing name servers or debugging/troubleshooting "live" problems; etc, etc. More clarity about the nature of the actual problem is needed. Once that is forthcoming, I hope this WG can reach a consensus around an *engineering* decision on whether the cure is worse than the disease. I think it would also be helpful if this problem statement could explain why DNAME'ing the cloned zones won't work. Or (in BIND terms) why multiple zone{} statements for the clones won't work either or are "too expensive". For some definition of expensive. I also wonder if it's feasible to come up with a meaningful way of saying zoneA/labelA is the same as zoneB/labelB, particularly in the context of IDN. There are bound to be problems here where a label in one script or language cannot be mapped into another or would be meaningless/inappropriate if it was. These problems could be intractable because they intrude into issues that are out of scope for the IETF: questions of TLD registry policy or of cultural, social and political identity for example. As a for instance, I would be more than displeased at a DNS construct which said "Scottish zone/label A is the same as British zone/label B or (worse) English zone/label C". Another less hypothetical example is Katakana which is mostly used in Japan for transcribing words imported from other languages IIUC. So it may be unacceptable for an IDN label for Kanji or Hiragana string to have a Katakana clone and vice versa. > What is needed here, if a protocol solution IS the answer, is a way to > do what people do today -- just sign the same data N times -- and a > protocol to make it more efficient for clients which support this new > protocol in the future. A protocol solution is likely to have a non-trivial impact on Secure DNS. Any takers for DNSSEC-quad? :-) From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Dec 30 08:16:27 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7DEB3A6A4E; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 08:16:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.74 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.74 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.74, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2DLL16RAJfVC; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 08:16:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 841793A6A44; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 08:16:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQ15o-000N5W-7Q for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 16:08:12 +0000 Received: from [83.145.227.89] (helo=gusev.araneus.fi) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQ15h-000N4i-CR for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 16:08:06 +0000 Received: from guava.gson.org (guava.gson.org [83.145.227.105]) by gusev.araneus.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id D556491C09; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 18:08:46 +0200 (EET) Received: by guava.gson.org (Postfix, from userid 101) id E976375EAD; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 18:08:01 +0200 (EET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19259.31457.580958.759743@guava.gson.org> Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 18:08:01 +0200 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] Comments on draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-12 In-Reply-To: <20091219172214.GF52726@shinkuro.com> References: <20091218184216.GF49362@shinkuro.com> <20091219172214.GF52726@shinkuro.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.19 under Emacs 21.4.1 From: Andreas Gustafsson Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Andrew Sullivan wrote: > This mail initiates a three week Working Group Last Call for the WG > work item, draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-12.txt. The last call will > close at 17:00 EST on 2010-01-09. > > Please read the document and send your comments to the mailing list. The draft still needs some work. My comments follow, organized by section. Section 2.1.1, Header Values (regarding the ARCOUNT field in the AXFR request message): The value MAY be 0, 1 or 2. If it is 2, the Additional section MUST contain both an EDNS0 [RFC2671] OPT resource record and a record carrying transaction integrity and authentication data, currently a choice of TSIG [RFC2845] and SIG(0) [RFC2931]. If the value is 1, then the Additional section MUST contain either only an EDNS0 OPT resource record or a record carrying transaction integrity and authentication data. If the value is 0, the Additional section MUST be empty. This seems overly restrictive in that it would preclude future backwards-compatible extensions where new records other than EDNS0 or integrity/authentication records are added to the additional section, especially given that such extensions are specifically anticipated in the last paragraph of section 2.1.5. I suggest dropping the quoted text, leaving just the preceding text "The client MUST set this field to the number of resource records appearing in the Additional section". Section 2.1.2, Question Section: The Query section of the AXFR query MUST conform to Section 4.1.2 of The term "Query section" occurs in several places in the document; they should all read "Question section" to be consistent with RFC1035 terminology. Section 2.2, AXFR Response: An AXFR response indicates an error via a single DNS message with the return code set to the appropriate value for the condition The term "return code" occurs in two places in the document; they should both read "RCODE" or "response code" to be consistent with RFC1035 terminology. Section 2.2.1, "0 Message" Response: A legitimate "0 message" response, i.e., the client sees no response whatsoever, is very exceptional and controversial. Unquestionably it is unhealthy for there to be 0 responses in a protocol that is designed around a query - response paradigm over an unreliable transport. The lack of a response could be a sign of underlying network problems and cause the protocol state machine to react accordingly. However, AXFR uses TCP and not UDP, eliminating undetectable network errors. A "0 message response" is reserved for situations in which the server has a reason to suspect that the query is sent for the purpose of abuse. Due to the use of this being so controversial, a "0 message response" is not being defined as a legitimate part of the protocol but the use of it is being acknowledged as a warning to AXFR client implementations. Any earnest query has the expectation of some response but nevertheless may not get one. I don't think it makes sense to talk about a "0 message response" as a type of response distinct from that of immediately closing the TCP connection (as discussed in section 2.3). If the TCP connection is not closed, a "0 message response" effectively amounts to the server ignoring the AXFR request while keeping the TCP connection open and continuing to respond to other requests on the same connection. That behavior makes no sense, and I don't believe it has ever been implemented in any server, nor do I believe anyone has actually requested that the standard allow it. What has been (controversially) implemented is specifically the action of immediately closing the TCP connection. Therefore, I suggest removing section 2.2.1 in its entirety, and replacing the text in section 2.2 saying The AXFR response will consist of 0 or more messages. A "0 message" response is covered in Section 2.2.1. by The AXFR response will consist of 1 or more messages. The case of a server closing the TCP connection without sending an AXFR response is covered in section 2.3. Section 2.2.2, Header Values: e) If the implementation supports the DNS Security Extensions (DNSSEC -- see Section 2), then this value MUST be set according to the rules in RFC 4035, Section 3.1.6, "The AD and CD Bits in an Authoritative Response". If the implementation does not support the DNS Security Extensions, then this value MUST be set to 0 and MUST be ignored upon receipt. It is unclear to me what the purpose of setting the AD or CD bit in an AXFR response is. If there is no well-defined use for the AD and CD bits in the AXFR client, I don't see the point in the AXFR server setting them. On the other hand, it seems that RFC 4035 section 3.1.6 already allows a server to always respond with CD=0 and AD=0, so while the requirements of section 2.2.2 may not serve any real purpose, they are at least trivial for the server implementer to comply with. :) Section 3.1, Records to Include: Unless the AXFR server knows that the AXFR client is old and expects just one resource record per AXFR response message, an AXFR server SHOULD populate an AXFR response message with as many complete resource record sets as will fit within a DNS message. This discussion belongs in section 2.2., not section 3, because it is not about the zone contents but about the form of the response message. Also, the fact that some older servers can only handle single-RR response messages needs to be clearly stated and discussed on its own, not just mentioned in passing. Section 4, Transport: Since the early days of the DNS, operators who have sets of name servers that are authoritative for a common set of zones found it desirable to be able to have multiple concurrent zone transfers in progress; this way a name server does not have to wait for one zone transfer to complete before the next could begin. RFC 1035 did not exclude this possibility, but legacy implementations missed to support this functionality. It's not quite true that "legacy implementations missed to support this functionality". DNS implementations have supported multiple concurrent zone transfers for a long time; it's just that they have supported them by means of multiple concurrent TCP connections rather than by multiple concurrent AXFR sessions over a single TCP connection. The remaining presence of such legacy implementations makes it necessary that new general purpose server implementation still provide options for gracefull fallback to the old behavior in their support of concurrent DNS transactions and AXFR sessions on a single TCP connection. Surely you mean client implementations, not server implementations? Also, "graceful" is spelled with one "l". -- Andreas Gustafsson, gson@araneus.fi From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Dec 30 10:12:50 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E22503A695B; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 10:12:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.14 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.14 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.74, J_CHICKENPOX_53=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t5ADc8ROWKrN; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 10:12:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 052FB3A693E; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 10:12:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQ2wS-000C9v-Kl for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 18:06:40 +0000 Received: from [89.16.176.221] (helo=mail.avalus.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQ2wM-000C8p-IY for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 18:06:35 +0000 Received: from [192.168.100.114] (host217-42-45-223.range217-42.btcentralplus.com [217.42.45.223]) by mail.avalus.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C6334C566C8; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 18:06:31 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 18:06:30 +0000 From: Alex Bligh Reply-To: Alex Bligh To: Jim Reid , Michael Graff cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, Alex Bligh Subject: Re: [dnsext] we've been assuming that only one label matters Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <4B350F07.5050705@gis.net> <31698.1261770900@nsa.vix.com> <86075.1261848395@nsa.vix.com> <4B374878.7040002@isc.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: --On 30 December 2009 14:00:12 +0000 Jim Reid wrote: > More clarity about the nature of the actual problem is needed. Once that > is forthcoming, I hope this WG can reach a consensus around an > *engineering* decision on whether the cure is worse than the disease. > > I think it would also be helpful if this problem statement could explain > why DNAME'ing the cloned zones won't work. Or (in BIND terms) why > multiple zone{} statements for the clones won't work either or are "too > expensive". For some definition of expensive. I may well be missing something, and perhaps haven't fully understood the problem statement, but I'd tend to agree with Jim here. I appreciate there is a maintainability problem in that one needs to determine whether one must write foo IN NS colour.example.tld or foo IN NS color.example.tld (assuming colour and color are the two equivalents), but one would have thought a BCP containing an algorithm that chooses one of the above, possibly arbitrarily but always consistently, would be sufficient. That said, to the extent there is a problem needing solving, there does not appear to be any point in inventing another ?NAME unless it solves everything Paul's problem statement set out to solve. -- Alex Bligh From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Dec 30 10:14:55 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48D953A6864; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 10:14:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.232 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.232 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.167, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_53=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TnOSvmHqQ5-K; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 10:14:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 508163A659A; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 10:14:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQ2vp-000C60-39 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 18:06:01 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQ2vj-000C5M-5d for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 18:05:55 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C908BA440A for ; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 18:05:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] we've been assuming that only one label matters In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 30 Dec 2009 14:00:12 GMT." References: <4B350F07.5050705@gis.net> <31698.1261770900@nsa.vix.com> <86075.1261848395@nsa.vix.com> <4B374878.7040002@isc.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 18:05:54 +0000 Message-ID: <16550.1262196354@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > From: Jim Reid > Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 14:00:12 +0000 > > I think it would also be helpful if this problem statement could explain > why DNAME'ing the cloned zones won't work. Or (in BIND terms) why > multiple zone{} statements for the clones won't work either or are "too > expensive". For some definition of expensive. that's been explained. grep florian weimer and edward lewis in the archives. i agree that a problem statement would nec'ily include their observations, but i'm less sure that anybody here should claim ignorance of those observations. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Dec 30 11:24:29 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 160A73A68E1; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 11:24:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.543 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.543 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.456, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_55=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lWufv7hC32BW; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 11:24:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D97C3A68B1; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 11:24:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQ3zh-000J8I-Lv for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 19:14:05 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQ3zb-000J7W-Ht for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 19:13:59 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 333CBA4432 for ; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 19:13:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] we've been assuming that only one label matters In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 30 Dec 2009 18:06:30 GMT." References: <4B350F07.5050705@gis.net> <31698.1261770900@nsa.vix.com> <86075.1261848395@nsa.vix.com> <4B374878.7040002@isc.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 19:13:59 +0000 Message-ID: <19695.1262200439@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 18:06:30 +0000 > From: Alex Bligh > > I may well be missing something, and perhaps haven't fully understood > the problem statement, but I'd tend to agree with Jim here. > > I appreciate there is a maintainability problem in that one needs > to determine whether one must write > foo IN NS colour.example.tld > or > foo IN NS color.example.tld > (assuming colour and color are the two equivalents), but one would > have thought a BCP containing an algorithm that chooses one of > the above, possibly arbitrarily but always consistently, would > be sufficient. for IDN this might be possible. but andrew asked us to consider the problem "how to make one name exactly like another" and asked us not to constrain our thinking to the IDN use case. > That said, to the extent there is a problem needing solving, there > does not appear to be any point in inventing another ?NAME unless it > solves everything Paul's problem statement set out to solve. (it's andrew's problem statement, which i'm the one who keeps repeating here.) at a minimum, DNAME does not redirect its owner name since there might be other RRs there (SOA and NS, if it's a zone apex), and CNAME does not permit other RRs to share its owner name, so our alternatives for alias names (which are not "exactly like" other names but they're pretty close for most purposes) were: 1. relax the CNAME-and-other-data constraint to allow CNAME+DNAME. 2. change the semantics of DNAME so that it covers its owner name. 3. define a new xNAME that does what CNAME+DNAME would be like. of the three, #1 and #2 require that the installed base be upgraded, whereas #3 does not. therefore BNAME has been proposed. however, these are alias names, which are not exactly like other names, and so i'm still thinking about "zone clones" (or "clone zones", depending on how you look at it.) the reason i don't think of this as a trivial problem subject to out-of-band operational practices, is because of interactions between primary and secondary servers, which might be implemented by different parties, and operated by different parties. "zone clone" is my way to ensure that a zone can be served even across architectural boundaries and administrative boundaries. in that sense it's like SOA's timers, which could just as easily have been made into an operational problem, but then we would lack a standard that allowed secondary and primary name servers to cooperate in zone management unless they were all implemented and/or operated by a single party. that would never have scaled, and DNS has to scale. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Dec 30 12:05:11 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADB7C3A68B4; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 12:05:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.503 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.503 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.096, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RQtyDbd1N8h5; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 12:05:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD6F13A67B6; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 12:05:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQ4eL-000NmG-G6 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 19:56:05 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQ4eF-000Nlc-CB for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 19:55:59 +0000 Received: from valholl.ogud.com (nyttbox.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.4]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBUJu2bs039308; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 14:56:03 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ogud@ogud.com) Message-Id: <200912301956.nBUJu2bs039308@stora.ogud.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 14:55:44 -0500 To: Florian Weimer , Andrew Sullivan From: Olafur Gudmundsson Subject: Re: [dnsext] draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-registry-fixes and draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-alg-allocation WGLC announcement Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org In-Reply-To: <82637odhm6.fsf@mid.bfk.de> References: <20091219172324.GG52726@shinkuro.com> <82637odhm6.fsf@mid.bfk.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: At 02:51 30/12/2009, Florian Weimer wrote: >* Andrew Sullivan: > > > This email begins a three week Working Group Last Call for the two > > documents draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-alg-allocation-00.txt and > > draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-registry-fixes-01.txt. We are calling these > > documents together because in our view they naturally complement one > > another. > >draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-registry-fixes-01 undos the upcoming ID >assignment for the GOST algorithms. Unless it is guaranteed that the >registry draft overtakes the GOST draft in the publishing pipeline, >the registry draft must be updated. (I haven't checked if other >algorithms are missing from the table in section 2.2.) GOST can not have an allocation until after the IESG has concluded its evaluation, thus this draft can not make assumptions about GOTS's fate, adding GOST is easy. >Is a normative reference to an I-D in a standards-track RFC >acceptable? The only reference to OBSOLETE could be replaced with >OPTIONAL and a footnote saying that RSAMD5 should be considered >broken. Having a normative reference to another ID is fine, the implication is that this document will be published with or after the normative reference. >draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-alg-allocation-00 looks fine and should go >forward. Olafur From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Dec 30 12:26:18 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A17643A67E2; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 12:26:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RyhJ56facNIB; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 12:26:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B15323A67D6; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 12:26:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQ50Z-0000Le-KF for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:19:03 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQ50U-0000LH-09 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:18:58 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (69-196-144-230.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A754B2FE8CA1 for ; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:18:56 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 15:18:54 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] we've been assuming that only one label matters Message-ID: <20091230201854.GQ1725@shinkuro.com> References: <4B350F07.5050705@gis.net> <31698.1261770900@nsa.vix.com> <86075.1261848395@nsa.vix.com> <4B374878.7040002@isc.org> <19695.1262200439@nsa.vix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <19695.1262200439@nsa.vix.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 07:13:59PM +0000, Paul Vixie wrote: > > for IDN this might be possible. but andrew asked us to consider the > problem "how to make one name exactly like another" and asked us not > to constrain our thinking to the IDN use case. Yes, I did. Let me explain a little my thinking. I know that it's often a dangerous practice to try to solve problems you don't know about yet. At the same time, it seems to me that there are already two inventions (CNAME and DNAME) that _kind of_ solve the problem of making two names "just like another", and they're both being abused in nasty ways in an effort to get the behaviour people really want. Neither of them actually works the way users want. In the end, I am of course willing to accept an answer tailor-made for the IDN problem: we have a real use case before us that has a compelling need, and I think we'd be fools to refuse to solve that for the long term (even if whatever we do can't be used tomorrow). But I think we have enough big brains around here that it is worth trying to solve the more general problem first, to see whether we can come up with something that solves more than one problem at once and that provides a facility that many DNS-naive people think already exists. (I have heard, more than once, "What do you mean there's no real aliasing in the DNS?" People who don't run nameservers really do think this is just an obvious thing that ought to just work, and saying that it's hard does not elict a friendly smile.) I am painfully aware that some people dislike these sorts of discussions that lead us off into speculation-land; but if we, the DNS protocol extension community, won't try to tackle the general case, I am not sure who will ever do it. Instead, we'll get a long series of special-case handlers. My personal, no-hat opinion is that a large number of special cases is usually less desirable than one general handler. Not everything can be solved this way, though, and I'm totally open minded about the present case. All of that said, I expect that pretty soon (probably mid-January) Olafur and I will try to provide a shortish summary of what we understood from the WG's discussions. We'll be soliciting specific direction from WG participants at that point. In the meantime, if you have a proposal or idea you want to work out, please either outline it here, put it together as a specific proposal in an I-D, or both. Thanks very much to everyone who continues to participate in this discussion. It's very helpful to me, and I think it is also helpful to our user community (who have, after all, a problem they're feeling -- even if it's one you might think isn't as hard as they believe it to be). The only reason we have to continue our work as a WG is that we are addressing needs felt on the Internet, and I think this is a genuine case. Best regards, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Dec 30 13:38:34 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96F9E3A67B5; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 13:38:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Dgf3NNO80BLY; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 13:38:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C55C53A6948; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 13:38:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQ67e-0007Ap-Qt for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 21:30:26 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::5] (helo=farside.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQ67Z-00079v-2a for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 21:30:21 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (drugs.dv.isc.org [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (not verified)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AC76E60A4; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 21:30:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBULUGY5050301; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 08:30:17 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200912302130.nBULUGY5050301@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Alex Bligh Cc: Jim Reid , Michael Graff , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews References: <4B350F07.5050705@gis.net> <31698.1261770900@nsa.vix.com> <86075.1261848395@nsa.vix.com> <4B374878.7040002@isc.org> Subject: Re: [dnsext] we've been assuming that only one label matters In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 30 Dec 2009 18:06:30 -0000." Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 08:30:16 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: In message , Alex Bligh writes: > That said, to the extent there is a problem needing solving, there > does not appear to be any point in inventing another ?NAME unless it > solves everything Paul's problem statement set out to solve. Why? There are some that would be happy with (requested) a DNAME + CNAME equivalent. There are differnet cost/benefit tradeoffs here. We might actually want to provide multiple solutions. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Dec 30 14:21:13 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B1083A68A5; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 14:21:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.37 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.37 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.230, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cuQKaBOXk+v9; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 14:21:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D4AE3A6892; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 14:21:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQ6nJ-000Bo4-RW for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 22:13:29 +0000 Received: from [89.16.176.221] (helo=mail.avalus.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQ6nD-000BnW-PP for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 22:13:24 +0000 Received: from [192.168.100.114] (host217-42-45-223.range217-42.btcentralplus.com [217.42.45.223]) by mail.avalus.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2BEC1C566C8; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 22:13:21 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 22:13:20 +0000 From: Alex Bligh Reply-To: Alex Bligh To: Andrew Sullivan , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org cc: Alex Bligh Subject: Re: [dnsext] we've been assuming that only one label matters Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20091230201854.GQ1725@shinkuro.com> References: <4B350F07.5050705@gis.net> <31698.1261770900@nsa.vix.com> <86075.1261848395@nsa.vix.com> <4B374878.7040002@isc.org> <19695.1262200439@nsa.vix.com> <20091230201854.GQ1725@shinkuro.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: --On 30 December 2009 15:18:54 -0500 Andrew Sullivan wrote: >> for IDN this might be possible. but andrew asked us to consider the >> problem "how to make one name exactly like another" and asked us not >> to constrain our thinking to the IDN use case. > > Yes, I did. Let me explain a little my thinking. > > I know that it's often a dangerous practice to try to solve problems > you don't know about yet. At the same time, it seems to me that there > are already two inventions (CNAME and DNAME) that _kind of_ solve the > problem of making two names "just like another", and they're both > being abused in nasty ways in an effort to get the behaviour people > really want. Neither of them actually works the way users want. I suppose what I don't understand (quite possibly due to my own ignorance) is why the IDN problem can't be solved at the tool level, and what the non-IDN problem is at all, beyond the normal "DNS is not a panacea" observation. -- Alex Bligh From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Dec 30 14:27:14 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D45203A6835; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 14:27:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.984 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.984 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.615, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rgc+V-o-k5jL; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 14:27:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1BCC3A68A5; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 14:27:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQ6vn-000CQW-KM for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 22:22:15 +0000 Received: from [89.16.176.221] (helo=mail.avalus.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQ6vh-000CQ1-Do for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 22:22:09 +0000 Received: from [192.168.100.114] (host217-42-45-223.range217-42.btcentralplus.com [217.42.45.223]) by mail.avalus.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1F277C566BD; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 22:22:06 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 22:22:05 +0000 From: Alex Bligh Reply-To: Alex Bligh To: Mark Andrews cc: Jim Reid , Michael Graff , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, Alex Bligh Subject: Re: [dnsext] we've been assuming that only one label matters Message-ID: <28B9F045EE3FACCC13849233@nimrod.local> In-Reply-To: <200912302130.nBULUGY5050301@drugs.dv.isc.org> References: <4B350F07.5050705@gis.net> <31698.1261770900@nsa.vix.com> <86075.1261848395@nsa.vix.com> <4B374878.7040002@isc.org> <200912302130.nBULUGY5050301@drugs.dv.isc.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: --On 31 December 2009 08:30:16 +1100 Mark Andrews wrote: >> That said, to the extent there is a problem needing solving, there >> does not appear to be any point in inventing another ?NAME unless it >> solves everything Paul's problem statement set out to solve. > > Why? > > There are some that would be happy with (requested) a DNAME + CNAME > equivalent. There are differnet cost/benefit tradeoffs here. We might > actually want to provide multiple solutions. My rationale was that every protocol change has a cost for implementors and deployers, each of which have some large % outside those asking for change. If there is to be a change of that requires some standards action, then between two possible changes that affect the same set of software, one might as well pick the one that (a) solves the problems "properly" (which of course requires understanding what the problem(s) are) and (b) solves multiple problems simultaneously. Paul's proposal was (broadly speaking) constrained to authoritative servers, and it's difficult to think of a practical smaller subset of affected software that isn't just a "tool change". Hence, if we aren't just going to change the tools but make a protocol change, we might as well go for what Paul suggests. When you say "DNAME + CNAME equivalent" what does that mean that is different from DNAME + synthesis? -- Alex Bligh From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Dec 30 14:48:26 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38C2B3A6950; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 14:48:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.645 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.645 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.954, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4t3FWoVkj7Hh; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 14:48:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 825A43A67CC; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 14:48:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQ7EZ-000Dvw-EM for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 22:41:39 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQ7ET-000DuR-Rr for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 22:41:33 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (69-196-144-230.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8E3642FE8CA1 for ; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 22:41:31 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 17:41:30 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] we've been assuming that only one label matters Message-ID: <20091230224129.GU1725@shinkuro.com> References: <4B350F07.5050705@gis.net> <31698.1261770900@nsa.vix.com> <86075.1261848395@nsa.vix.com> <4B374878.7040002@isc.org> <19695.1262200439@nsa.vix.com> <20091230201854.GQ1725@shinkuro.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 10:13:20PM +0000, Alex Bligh wrote: > I suppose what I don't understand (quite possibly due to my own > ignorance) is why the IDN problem can't be solved at the tool > level, and what the non-IDN problem is at all, beyond the normal > "DNS is not a panacea" observation. I think the argument in favour of doing something has been made more than once in this thread, as well as in some different recent threads on this list. Ed Lewis presented, I think, the most recent kick to such threads, in the form that I find most compelling. If you really need references, please send me mail off-list, and I'll track down the particular versions of the arguments in the last month or so of archives. If what you're saying in "don't understand" is instead, "I don't find this argument compelling," that's fine with me, but I'd prefer to hear it in a more direct way. A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Dec 30 15:24:06 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82D043A680A; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 15:24:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.189 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.189 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.410, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XHfme9VoIlas; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 15:24:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B75D63A67BD; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 15:24:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQ7mn-000H6S-NM for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 23:17:01 +0000 Received: from [89.16.176.221] (helo=mail.avalus.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQ7mg-000H65-MC for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 23:16:55 +0000 Received: from [192.168.100.114] (host217-42-45-223.range217-42.btcentralplus.com [217.42.45.223]) by mail.avalus.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 17361C566C8; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 23:16:52 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 23:16:52 +0000 From: Alex Bligh Reply-To: Alex Bligh To: Andrew Sullivan , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org cc: Alex Bligh Subject: Re: [dnsext] we've been assuming that only one label matters Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20091230224129.GU1725@shinkuro.com> References: <4B350F07.5050705@gis.net> <31698.1261770900@nsa.vix.com> <86075.1261848395@nsa.vix.com> <4B374878.7040002@isc.org> <19695.1262200439@nsa.vix.com> <20091230201854.GQ1725@shinkuro.com> <20091230224129.GU1725@shinkuro.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: --On 30 December 2009 17:41:30 -0500 Andrew Sullivan wrote: > I think the argument in favour of doing something has been made more > than once in this thread, as well as in some different recent threads > on this list. Ed Lewis presented, I think, the most recent kick to > such threads, in the form that I find most compelling. If you really > need references, please send me mail off-list, and I'll track down the > particular versions of the arguments in the last month or so of > archives. > > If what you're saying in "don't understand" is instead, "I don't find > this argument compelling," that's fine with me, but I'd prefer to hear > it in a more direct way. I got the "something needs doing" argument. I didn't get the "something needs doing that can't be solved with tools" argument. I admit to being a bit distracted with other stuff when the mail was coming through, so shall go and reread. -- Alex Bligh From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Dec 30 17:12:05 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 978D93A69D9; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 17:12:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.11 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.11 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-1.11, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B0Ni8dy8NOaK; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 17:12:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D61393A69D8; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 17:12:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQ9R9-0000XI-Tp for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 01:02:47 +0000 Received: from [17.254.13.22] (helo=mail-out3.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQ9R3-0000Wf-Ke for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 01:02:41 +0000 Received: from relay16.apple.com (relay16.apple.com [17.128.113.55]) by mail-out3.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E81D57E97E9F for ; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 17:02:40 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 11807137-b7bd4ae000000f0d-b9-4b3bf830bf0a Received: from elliott.apple.com (elliott.apple.com [17.151.62.13]) by relay16.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id FE.55.03853.038FB3B4; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 17:02:40 -0800 (PST) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Received: from [172.16.42.9] (c-68-35-151-194.hsd1.nm.comcast.net [68.35.151.194]) by elliott.apple.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-7.04 (built Sep 26 2008; 32bit)) with ESMTPSA id <0KVH00L66S8FQ340@elliott.apple.com> for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 17:02:40 -0800 (PST) Cc: Donald Eastlake Message-id: From: Stuart Cheshire To: IETF DNSEXT WG In-reply-to: <1028365c0912131848p29de845fte3d53835e851b470@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] FQDN maximum length Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 17:02:38 -0800 References: <1028365c0912131848p29de845fte3d53835e851b470@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAZE= Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 13 Dec 2009, at 18:48, Donald Eastlake wrote: > OK, here is what I think is a stupid question to which I think I > know the answer... but I wish to consult the wisdom of namedroppers. > > I am doing a review of draft-cheshire-dnsext-multicastdns-08.txt. > For some reason, the authors believe that the words of RFC 1034 as > follows > > the total number of octets that represent a domain name (i.e., > the sum of all label octets and label lengths) is limited to 255 > > are no clear. I thought they were clear. As is often the case, things that may superficially appear clear at a casual glance are not so clear when you think about them more carefully. RFC 1035 ("DNS Implementation and Specification") says: > 2.3.4. Size limits > > Various objects and parameters in the DNS have size limits. They are > listed below. Some could be easily changed, others are more > fundamental. > > labels 63 octets or less > names 255 octets or less It would be nice if this said either: > labels 63 octets or less (including initial length byte) > names 255 octets or less (including final terminating zero) or > labels 63 octets or less (excluding initial length byte) > names 255 octets or less (excluding final terminating zero) Other context leads us to conclude that the label length limit does NOT include the initial length byte. Consistency would suggest that an equivalent interpretation might apply to the definition of name length limit. Faced with this ambiguity, we consulted "Clarifications to the DNS Specification", RFC 2181. Given that the entire point of RFC 2181 was to recognize and remedy ambiguities in the original DNS specifications, one might hope that it was given thorough scrutiny by the IETF and DNSEXT to ensure that it did so, and consequently any information in it replaces and supersedes any unclear or ambiguous information in the earlier RFCs. RFC 2181 says: > The DNS itself places only one restriction on the particular labels > that can be used to identify resource records. That one > restriction > relates to the length of the label and the full name. The length > of > any one label is limited to between 1 and 63 octets. A full domain > name is limited to 255 octets (including the separators). The zero > length full name is defined as representing the root of the DNS > tree, > and is typically written and displayed as ".". So, what do we make of that? Is this talking about the wire format of a domain name, or the conventional textual representation? The "including the separators" text implies this is talking about the textual representation, but it fails to say whether the trailing dot is included, and it also fails to say whether the trailing null byte typically at the end of a C string is included. As "clarifications" go, I've seen better. What's the length of "ietf.org"? Let's consider the four possibilities: (A) "ietf.org" length = 8 (B) "ietf.org." length = 9 (C) "ietf.org\0" length = 9 (D) "ietf.org.\0" length = 10 Let's consider that for the case of the root name: (A) "" length = 0 (B) "." length = 1 (C) "\0" length = 1 (D) ".\0" length = 2 Is the length of "ietf.org" 8, 9 or 10? Is the length of the root name 0, 1, or 2? If only the document gave us some hint. Oh, wait, it does: > The zero length full name is defined as representing the root > of the DNS tree, and is typically written and displayed as ".". So RFC 2181 does tell us the answer. The length of "." is considered to be zero. So neither the trailing dot nor the trailing C-string null byte are included. That means interpretation (A) is the correct one, and the nominal "length" of "ietf.org" is 8. This is consistent with other similar things in computing. A pascal string can be 0-255 bytes long, but it takes 1-256 bytes of storage, because of the length byte. Many software objects are a multiple of a power of two in size, because computers are more efficient at handling memory objects that are bus-aligned (typically 4 bytes), or cache-line aligned (e.g. 128-bytes), or VM-page aligned (e.g. 4KB). Limiting a domain name to 255 bytes of storage instead of 256 is just wasting a byte. In a C structure in memory, a 255-byte object is usually followed by an unused padding byte so that the next object is word-aligned. In such a world, where a pascal string can be 0-255 bytes long, and takes up to 256 bytes of storage, because of the length byte, it is consistent that: (a) a domain label can be up to 63 bytes long (and takes up to 64 bytes of storage, because of the length byte) and (b) a domain name can be up to 255 bytes long (and takes up to 256 bytes of storage, because of the terminating zero). Stuart Cheshire * Wizard Without Portfolio, Apple Inc. * Internet Architecture Board * www.stuartcheshire.org From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Dec 30 18:36:14 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F30FC3A69EE; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 18:36:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.266 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.266 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.333, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3S3k3Ub6vRwn; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 18:36:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 377433A69F5; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 18:36:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQAki-0008aE-3s for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 02:27:04 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::5] (helo=farside.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQAkb-0008Zq-Af for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 02:26:57 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (drugs.dv.isc.org [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (not verified)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB770E601C; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 02:26:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBV2Qqwr055127; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 13:26:53 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200912310226.nBV2Qqwr055127@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Stuart Cheshire Cc: IETF DNSEXT WG , Donald Eastlake From: Mark Andrews References: <1028365c0912131848p29de845fte3d53835e851b470@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] FQDN maximum length In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 30 Dec 2009 17:02:38 -0800." Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 13:26:52 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: In message , Stuart Cheshire wr ites: > On 13 Dec 2009, at 18:48, Donald Eastlake wrote: > > > OK, here is what I think is a stupid question to which I think I > > know the answer... but I wish to consult the wisdom of namedroppers. > > > > I am doing a review of draft-cheshire-dnsext-multicastdns-08.txt. > > For some reason, the authors believe that the words of RFC 1034 as > > follows > > > > the total number of octets that represent a domain name (i.e., > > the sum of all label octets and label lengths) is limited to 255 > > > > are no clear. I thought they were clear. > As is often the case, things that may superficially appear clear at a > casual glance are not so clear when you think about them more carefully. > > RFC 1035 ("DNS Implementation and Specification") says: > > > 2.3.4. Size limits > > > > Various objects and parameters in the DNS have size limits. They are > > listed below. Some could be easily changed, others are more > > fundamental. > > > > labels 63 octets or less > > names 255 octets or less > It would be nice if this said either: > > > labels 63 octets or less (including initial length byte) > > names 255 octets or less (including final terminating zero) > or > > > labels 63 octets or less (excluding initial length byte) > > names 255 octets or less (excluding final terminating zero) What actually says is: labels 63 octets or less plus a length octet. names 255 octets or less terminating in the root label. which matches neither of your interpretions. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Dec 30 20:24:56 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF77E3A6A71; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:24:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.87 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.87 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.729, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Is-g2ojiGh8U; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:24:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E64053A6A05; Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:24:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQCQ0-000H50-JP for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 04:13:48 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQCPu-000H4J-Vr for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 04:13:43 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4911A448C for ; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 04:13:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: IETF DNSEXT WG Subject: Re: [dnsext] FQDN maximum length In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 31 Dec 2009 13:26:52 +1100." <200912310226.nBV2Qqwr055127@drugs.dv.isc.org> References: <1028365c0912131848p29de845fte3d53835e851b470@mail.gmail.com> <200912310226.nBV2Qqwr055127@drugs.dv.isc.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 04:13:41 +0000 Message-ID: <41738.1262232821@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > From: Mark Andrews > Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 13:26:52 +1100 > > What actually says is: > > labels 63 octets or less plus a length octet. > names 255 octets or less terminating in the root label. agreed... > which matches neither of your interpretions. ...sadly. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Dec 31 03:08:46 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C50D3A67F8; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 03:08:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.369 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.369 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.230, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kNfp73FuhzY7; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 03:08:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC3FF3A67D9; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 03:08:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQIgx-0000GO-8X for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 10:55:43 +0000 Received: from [193.1.169.37] (helo=cali.ucd.ie) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQIgr-0000G0-GZ for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 10:55:37 +0000 Received: from conversion-daemon.cali.ucd.ie by cali.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.03 (built Sep 22 2005)) id <0KVI00001JB9NH00@cali.ucd.ie> (original mail from Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie) for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 10:55:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.0.1.177] (bark.no8.be [83.141.81.52]) by cali.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.03 (built Sep 22 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0KVI00G8UJOFL500@cali.ucd.ie>; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 10:55:35 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 10:55:27 +0000 From: Niall O'Reilly Subject: Re: [dnsext] we've been assuming that only one label matters In-reply-to: <28B9F045EE3FACCC13849233@nimrod.local> To: Alex Bligh Cc: Mark Andrews , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, niall.oreilly@ucd.ie, Vaggelis Segredakis Message-id: <4B3C831F.2060008@ucd.ie> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <4B350F07.5050705@gis.net> <31698.1261770900@nsa.vix.com> <86075.1261848395@nsa.vix.com> <4B374878.7040002@isc.org> <200912302130.nBULUGY5050301@drugs.dv.isc.org> <28B9F045EE3FACCC13849233@nimrod.local> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Alex Bligh wrote: > > When you say "DNAME + CNAME equivalent" what does that mean that is > different from DNAME + synthesis? > The latter only covers descendants. What's sought (archives: Vaggelis Segredakis) is something to cover at one blow self and descendants. /Niall From dmailer.ok@ietf.org Thu Dec 31 04:57:36 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CADC3A6822 for ; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 04:57:36 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: <12XVi971TEjT> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 04:57:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from ip-82-209-34-70.customer.poda.cz (ip-82-209-34-70.customer.poda.cz [82.209.34.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 8164C3A680B for ; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 04:57:24 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: User dnsext-archive@ietf.org get 84 discount on ALL Brands To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html X-Antivirus: avast! 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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Thu Dec 31 06:32:57 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 195EE3A685B for ; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 06:32:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -50.114 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-50.114 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_HU=1.35, HOST_EQ_HU=1.245, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, NUMERIC_HTTP_ADDR=0.001, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lBB3kwQIWCka for ; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 06:32:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool-0293.adsl.interware.hu (pool-0293.adsl.interware.hu [213.178.101.37]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DD973A6A7D for ; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 06:32:49 -0800 (PST) From: Genuine Pfizer c Retailer To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Special 80% discount for customer dnsext-archive on all Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091231143249.5DD973A6A7D@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 06:32:49 -0800 (PST) Newsletter If you are unable to see the message below, click here to view.

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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Thu Dec 31 06:33:53 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 649223A672E for ; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 06:33:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -50.115 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-50.115 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_HU=1.35, HOST_EQ_HU=1.245, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id utHFhjEWiZWH for ; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 06:33:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool-0293.adsl.interware.hu (pool-0293.adsl.interware.hu [213.178.101.37]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD7813A680E for ; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 06:33:45 -0800 (PST) From: Genuine Pfizer c Retailer To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Special 80% discount for customer dnsext-archive on all Pfizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20091231143345.DD7813A680E@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 06:33:45 -0800 (PST) Newsletter If you are unable to see the message below, click here to view.

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Dec 31 07:10:22 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27D653A6A84; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 07:10:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.855 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.855 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.744, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RfyQr1bMMPGr; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 07:10:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44DAB3A680B; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 07:10:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQMTM-000NjE-9V for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 14:57:56 +0000 Received: from [17.254.13.23] (helo=mail-out4.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQMTF-000Nir-Gy for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 14:57:50 +0000 Received: from relay16.apple.com (relay16.apple.com [17.128.113.55]) by mail-out4.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7AAB848798A for ; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 06:57:48 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 11807137-b7bd4ae000000f0d-13-4b3cbbec7314 Received: from et.apple.com (et.apple.com [17.151.62.12]) by relay16.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id 82.CF.03853.CEBBC3B4; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 06:57:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Received: from [172.16.42.9] (c-68-35-151-194.hsd1.nm.comcast.net [68.35.151.194]) by et.apple.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-7.04 (built Sep 26 2008; 32bit)) with ESMTPSA id <0KVI00KE6UWB2S50@et.apple.com> for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 06:57:48 -0800 (PST) Cc: IETF DNSEXT WG , Donald Eastlake Message-id: From: Stuart Cheshire To: Mark Andrews In-reply-to: <200912310226.nBV2Qqwr055127@drugs.dv.isc.org> Subject: Re: [dnsext] FQDN maximum length Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 06:57:47 -0800 References: <1028365c0912131848p29de845fte3d53835e851b470@mail.gmail.com> <200912310226.nBV2Qqwr055127@drugs.dv.isc.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAZE= Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 30 Dec 2009, at 18:26, Mark Andrews wrote: > What actually says is: > > labels 63 octets or less plus a length octet. > names 255 octets or less terminating in the root label. > > which matches neither of your interpretions. > > Mark Which page of which RFC are you quoting there? Stuart Cheshire * Wizard Without Portfolio, Apple Inc. * Internet Architecture Board * www.stuartcheshire.org From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Dec 31 10:31:50 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A5483A6AA3; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 10:31:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.384 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.384 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.215, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D5HzHpq7rkax; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 10:31:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 633553A6A1F; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 10:31:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQPeV-000JBG-PF for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 18:21:39 +0000 Received: from [193.1.169.34] (helo=dakota.ucd.ie) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQPeN-000JAK-Ug for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 18:21:32 +0000 Received: from conversion-daemon.dakota.ucd.ie by dakota.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-2.05 (built Apr 28 2005)) id <0KVJ00A0142VDC00@dakota.ucd.ie> (original mail from Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie) for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 18:21:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.0.1.177] (bark.no8.be [83.141.81.52]) by dakota.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-2.05 (built Apr 28 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0KVJ004GV4BTEL00@dakota.ucd.ie>; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 18:21:30 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 18:21:29 +0000 From: Niall O'Reilly Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify WGLC announcement In-reply-to: <20091219172214.GF52726@shinkuro.com> To: Andrew Sullivan Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, Edward Lewis , =?UTF-8?B?QWxmcmVkIO+/vQ==?= Message-id: <4B3CEBA9.7090806@ucd.ie> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20091218184216.GF49362@shinkuro.com> <20091219172214.GF52726@shinkuro.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Andrew Sullivan wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > This mail initiates a three week Working Group Last Call for the WG > work item, draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-12.txt. The last call will > close at 17:00 EST on 2010-01-09. > > Please read the document and send your comments to the mailing list. > This document has been through many revisions and has received quite a > lot of attention, but it has lived a long time and really needs > complete review. This is especially true because it discusses a very > old part of the DNS specifications. Because this is a clarification > document that purports to specify more completely the behaviour of > existing functionality, it is particularly important that its > correctness and completeness be evaluated by protocol experts and, > especially, implementers. > > Please remember that DNSEXT has a policy that a document that has not > received supportive review by at least five DNSEXT participants will > not be sent to the IESG. The document has been around for a long > time, and it would be a shame to let that work go to waste due to > inadequate review. Especially in this case, I would very much like to > see more than five supportive reviews. I am neither a "protocol expert" nor an "implementer". I have carefully read draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-12.txt, and believe that it is a useful document. Its very accessible language and careful exposition should be helpful to all readers who need an explicit point of reference for what is not made sufficiently clear in earlier documents. I particularly appreciate and welcome the care taken to identify those aspects of AXFR behaviour which can only be effectively addressed by configuration actions; I expect that this will be of valuable assistance to zone and server administrators. I found a good number of "nits", and will include these in a later message. In just one place, the intent seemed insufficiently clear. I believe that giving further attention to the following section at this stage would forestall possible future controversy. 2.3. TCP Connection Aborts [...] An AXFR server implementor SHOULD take into consideration the dilemma described above when a connection is closed with an outstanding query in the pipeline. For this reason, a server ought to reserve this course of action for situations in which it believes beyond a doubt that the AXFR client is attempting abusive behavior. Intent: is 'SHOULD' or 'RECOMMEND' needed? s/server ought to reserve/SHOULD reserve/? OR s/a server ought to reserve/ /it is RECOMMENDED that a server reserve/? I hope this helps. Best regards, and Happy New Year! Niall O'Reilly From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Dec 31 10:38:44 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D44803A6873; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 10:38:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.397 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.397 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.202, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mSDThb10pkuC; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 10:38:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 774893A687B; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 10:38:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQPos-000JyB-Mp for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 18:32:22 +0000 Received: from [193.1.169.37] (helo=cali.ucd.ie) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQPoj-000Jxc-Cy for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 18:32:13 +0000 Received: from conversion-daemon.cali.ucd.ie by cali.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.03 (built Sep 22 2005)) id <0KVJ001014SSO200@cali.ucd.ie> (original mail from Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie) for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 18:32:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.0.1.177] (bark.no8.be [83.141.81.52]) by cali.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.03 (built Sep 22 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0KVJ0011G4TLL100@cali.ucd.ie>; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 18:32:09 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 18:32:09 +0000 From: Niall O'Reilly Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify WGLC announcement In-reply-to: <20091219172214.GF52726@shinkuro.com> To: Andrew Sullivan Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, Edward Lewis , =?UTF-8?B?QWxmcmVkIO+/vQ==?= Message-id: <4B3CEE29.3020006@ucd.ie> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20091218184216.GF49362@shinkuro.com> <20091219172214.GF52726@shinkuro.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Andrew Sullivan wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > This mail initiates a three week Working Group Last Call for the WG > work item, draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-12.txt. The last call will > close at 17:00 EST on 2010-01-09. Nit-list, as promised, covering spelling, ill-formed sentences, and problematic vocabulary or usage (IMHO, of course) ... [...] Abstract The Domain Name System standard mechanisms for maintaining coherent servers for a zone consist of three elements. One mechanism is the Authoritative Transfer (AXFR) defined in RFC 1034 and RFC 1035. The definition of AXFR has proven insufficient in detail, thereby forcing implementations intended to be compliant to make assumptions, impeding interoperability. Yet today we have a satisfactory set of implementations that do interoperate. This document is a new definition of AXFR -- new in the sense that is it recording an accurate definition of an interoperable AXFR mechanism. s/is it recording/it records/ [...] 1.4. Coverage and Relationship to Original AXFR Specification This document concentrates on just the definition of AXFR. Any effort to update the specification of the IXFR or NOTIFY mechanisms is left to different documents. The original "specification" of the AXFR sub-protocol is scattered through RFC 1034 and RFC 1035. Section 2.2 of RFC 1035 (on page 5) depicts the scenario for which AXFR has been designed. Section 4.3.5 of RFC 1034 describes the zone synchronization strategies in general and rules for the invocation of a full zone transfer via AXFR; the fifth paragraph of that section contains a very short sketch of the AXFR protocol; Section 5.5 of RFC 2181 has corrected a significant flaw in that specification. Section 3.2.3 of RFC 1035 has assigned the code point for the AXFR QTYPE (see Section 2.1.2 below for more details). Section 4.2 of RFC 1035 discusses the transport layer use of DNS and shortly explains why UDP transport is deemed inappropriate for AXFR; s/discusses the transport layer use of DNS/ /discusses how DNS uses the transport layer/ s/shortly/briefly/ the last paragraph of Section 4.2.2 gives details for the TCP connection management with AXFR. s/for the/for/ s/with/for/ (or some other preposition or prepositional phrase: "with" is instrumental: "by means of"; not likely what is intended) [...] 2.2. AXFR Response The AXFR response will consist of 0 or more messages. A "0 message" response is covered in Section 2.2.1. An AXFR response that is transferring the zone's contents will consist of a series (which could be a series of length 1) of DNS messages. In such a series, the first message MUST begin with the SOA resource record of the zone, the last message MUST conclude with the same SOA resource record. Intermediate messages MUST NOT contain the SOA resource record. The AXFR server MUST copy the Question section from the corresponding AXFR query message in to the first response message's Question section. Subsequent messages MAY do the same or contain an empty Question section. An AXFR response indicates an error via a single DNS message with the return code set to the appropriate value for the condition encountered, sent once the error condition is detected. s/once/when/ [...] 2.2.1. "0 Message" Response A legitimate "0 message" response, i.e., the client sees no response whatsoever, is very exceptional and controversial. Unquestionably it is unhealthy for there to be 0 responses in a protocol that is designed around a query - response paradigm over an unreliable transport. The lack of a response could be a sign of underlying network problems and cause the protocol state machine to react accordingly. However, AXFR uses TCP and not UDP, eliminating undetectable network errors. A "0 message response" is reserved for situations in which the server has a reason to suspect that the query is sent for the purpose of abuse. Due to the use of this being so controversial, a "0 message response" is not being defined as a legitimate part of the protocol but the use of it is being acknowledged as a warning to AXFR client implementations. Any earnest query has the expectation of some response but nevertheless may not get one. s/earnest/legitimate/ or s/earnest/bona-fide/ [...] 2.2. Header Values [...] to the error. For example, a malformed AXFR query or the presence of an EDNS0 OPT resource record sent to an old server will garner a FormErr(1) value. s/garner/result in/ [...] g) The count of answer records MUST equal the number of resource records in the AXFR Answer Section. When a server is aware that a client will only accept one resource record per response message, s/only accept one/accept only one/ [...] h) The client MUST set this field to the number of resource records s/this field/the count of additional-section records/ appearing in the Additional section. The considerations of Note d) in Section 2.1.1 apply equally; see Section 2.2.6 "Additional Section" below for more details. [...] 2.3. TCP Connection Aborts If an AXFR client sends a query on a TCP connection and the connection is closed at any point, the AXFR client MUST consider the AXFR session terminated. The message ID MAY be used again on a new connection, even if the question and AXFR server are the same. Facing a dropped connection, a client SHOULD try to make some determination whether the connection closure was the result of network activity or a decision by the AXFR server. s/whether/as to whether/ s/connection closure/loss of connection/ s/or a/or due to a/ This determination is not an exact science. It is up to the AXFR client implementor to react, but the reaction SHOULD NOT be an endless cycle of retries nor an increasing (in frequency) retry rate. s/be an endless/be either an endless/ s/nor/or/ [...] 3. Zone Contents The objective of the AXFR session is to request and transfer the contents of a zone. The objective is to permit the AXFR client to reconstruct the zone as it exists at the server for the given zone serial number. Avoid giving two statements of the "objective": s/zone. The objective is to permit/zone, in order to permit/ [...] 3.2. Delegation Records [...] One issue is that in operations there are times when the NS resource records for a zone might be different at a cut point in the parent and at the apex of a zone. Sometimes this is the result of an error and sometimes it is part of an ongoing change in name servers. The DNS protocol is robust enough to overcome inconsistencies up to (but not including) there being no parent indicated NS resource record s/parent indicated/parent-indicated/ referencing a server that is able to serve the child zone. This robustness is one quality that has fueled the success of the DNS. Still, the inconsistency is an error state and steps need to be taken to make it apparent (if it is unplanned) and to make it clear once the inconsistency has been removed. [...] 3.3. Glue Records ??? As quoted in the previous section, Section 4.2.1 of RFC 1034 provides guidance and rationale for the inclusion of glue records as part of an AXFR transfer. And, as also argued in the previous section of this document, even when there is an inconsistency between the address in a glue record and the authoritative copy of the name server's address, the glue resource record that is registered as part of the zone for that serial number is to be included. The intent here is clear, but the expression is very unfortunate. I need to think some more before I "send text". ??? 4. Transport [...] The most common scenario is for an AXFR client to open a TCP connection to the AXFR server, send an AXFR query, receive the AXFR response, and then close the connection. But variations of that most simple scenario are legitimate and likely, in particular sending s/likely, in particular sending/likely. In particular, sending/ a query for the zone's SOA resource record first over the same TCP connection, and reusing an existing TCP connection for other queries. Therefore, the assumption that a TCP connection is dedicated to a single AXFR session is incorrect. This wrong assumption has led to implementation choices that prevent either multiple concurrent zone transfers or the use of an open connection for other queries. Since the early days of the DNS, operators who have sets of name servers that are authoritative for a common set of zones found it desirable to be able to have multiple concurrent zone transfers in progress; this way a name server does not have to wait for one zone transfer to complete before the next could begin. s/does/would/ OR s/could/can/ RFC 1035 did not exclude this possibility, but legacy implementations missed to support this functionality. s/missed/neglected/ The remaining presence of such legacy implementations makes it necessary that new general purpose server implementation still provide options for gracefull fallback to the s/gracefull/graceful/ old behavior in their support of concurrent DNS transactions and AXFR sessions on a single TCP connection. [...] disruption was a spurious event, attempting to restart the connection would be proper. If the disruption was caused by a failure that proved to be persistent, the AXFR client would be wise to not spend s/to not spend/not to spend/ OR s/to not spend/to avoid spending/ too many resources trying to rebuild the connection. Finally, if the connection was dropped because of a policy at the AXFR server (as can be the case with older AXFR servers), the AXFR client would be wise to not retry the connection. Unfortunately, knowing which of the s/to not retry/not to retry/ three cases above (momentary disruption, failure, policy) applies is not possible with certainty, and can only be assessed by heuristics. [...] 4.1.2. AXFR server TCP An AXFR server MUST be able to handle multiple AXFR sessions on a single TCP connection, as well as handle other query/response transactions over it. s/as well as handle/as well as to handle/ [...] [ends] IHTH Best regards, Niall O'Reilly From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Dec 31 14:51:34 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 679253A67FA; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 14:51:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.421 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.421 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-4.178, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_DATE_PAST_20XX=10.357, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m9osInMefNxT; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 14:51:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA81C3A67B2; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 14:51:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQThp-000CiB-Ad for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 22:41:21 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::5] (helo=farside.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQThj-000Chk-NX for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 22:41:15 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (drugs.dv.isc.org [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (not verified)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80F49E60C7; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 22:41:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBVMf5wH068929; Fri, 1 Jan 2010 09:41:06 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200912312241.nBVMf5wH068929@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: "Niall O'Reilly" Cc: Alex Bligh , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, Vaggelis Segredakis From: Mark Andrews References: <4B350F07.5050705@gis.net> <31698.1261770900@nsa.vix.com> <86075.1261848395@nsa.vix.com> <4B374878.7040002@isc.org> <200912302130.nBULUGY5050301@drugs.dv.isc.org> <28B9F045EE3FACCC13849233@nimrod.local> <4B3C831F.2060008@ucd.ie> Subject: Re: [dnsext] we've been assuming that only one label matters In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 31 Dec 2009 10:55:27 -0000." <4B3C831F.2060008@ucd.ie> Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 09:41:05 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: In message <4B3C831F.2060008@ucd.ie>, "Niall O'Reilly" writes: > Alex Bligh wrote: > > > > When you say "DNAME + CNAME equivalent" what does that mean that is > > different from DNAME + synthesis? > > > > The latter only covers descendants. > > What's sought (archives: Vaggelis Segredakis) is something > to cover at one blow self and descendants. > > /Niall By "DNAME + CNAME equivalent" I ment a record that does both at once. BNAME doesn't (yet) do the right thing. * Firstly BNAME needs hop-by-hop BNAME understanding signalling from day one. * Secondly you return a BNAME or a synthesised CNAME depending upon the BNAME understanding signalling. You never return both for the same QNAME in a response. If synthesised CNAME won't fit you return NXDOMAIN for the non-BNAME aware client, YXDOMAIN for a BNAME aware client. * Thirdly a zone containing a BNAME, MUST NOT be signed with any of the currently assigned algorithms. I would suggest that we have aliases for RSASHA256 and RSASHA512 which indicate BNAME support in addition to NSEC3 support (e.g. RSASHA256B, RSASHA512B). DSA, GOST maybe. Do not privide aliases for RSASHA1, RSAMD5 and NSEC3RSASHA1. Future algorithm assignment will imply NSEC3 and BNAME compliance. This will allow DNSSEC to work and not require keys to be kept online. Forwarders of a BNAME aware server need to also be BNAME aware. This is similar to NSEC3 where forwarders need to be NSEC3 aware for NSEC3 zones to work, or even plain DNSSEC. In this way a BNAME unaware validator will treat the zone as insecure. With DNAME we tried to do to much (always sending DNAME) and not enough (we didn't make DNAME DNSSEC compatible). We know how to do it better now. Happy New Year Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Dec 31 15:11:44 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E03EE3A6911; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 15:11:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.585 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.585 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-3.343, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_DATE_PAST_20XX=10.357, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jityT9+5cmAh; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 15:11:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DBD63A67EB; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 15:11:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQU48-000EC4-4m for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 23:04:24 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::5] (helo=farside.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQU3s-000EAK-Qr for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 23:04:08 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (drugs.dv.isc.org [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (not verified)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5335E60CB; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 23:04:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBVN44UG069473; Fri, 1 Jan 2010 10:04:05 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200912312304.nBVN44UG069473@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Stuart Cheshire Cc: IETF DNSEXT WG , Donald Eastlake From: Mark Andrews References: <1028365c0912131848p29de845fte3d53835e851b470@mail.gmail.com> <200912310226.nBV2Qqwr055127@drugs.dv.isc.org> Subject: Re: [dnsext] FQDN maximum length In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 31 Dec 2009 06:57:47 -0800." Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 10:04:04 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: In message , Stuart Cheshire wr ites: > On 30 Dec 2009, at 18:26, Mark Andrews wrote: > > > What actually says is: > > > > labels 63 octets or less plus a length octet. > > names 255 octets or less terminating in the root label. > > > > which matches neither of your interpretions. > > > > Mark > > > Which page of which RFC are you quoting there? RFC 1034 Internally, programs that manipulate domain names should represent them as sequences of labels, where each label is a length octet followed by an octet string. Because all domain names end at the root, which has a null string for a label, these internal representations can use a length byte of zero to terminate a domain name. To simplify implementations, the total number of octets that represent a domain name (i.e., the sum of all label octets and label lengths) is limited to 255. > Stuart Cheshire > * Wizard Without Portfolio, Apple Inc. > * Internet Architecture Board > * www.stuartcheshire.org > > -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Dec 31 15:18:51 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C2CA3A6910; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 15:18:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -98.382 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-98.382 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-3.432, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_DATE_PAST_20XX=10.357, MISSING_HEADERS=1.292, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pQA2pZ9VhyEu; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 15:18:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 179B83A688F; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 15:18:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQU9l-000EYd-Kv for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 23:10:13 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::5] (helo=farside.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.70 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NQU9f-000EYL-TG for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 23:10:07 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (drugs.dv.isc.org [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (not verified)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC065E601C; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 23:10:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBVNA4mk069600; Fri, 1 Jan 2010 10:10:04 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200912312310.nBVNA4mk069600@drugs.dv.isc.org> Cc: Stuart Cheshire , IETF DNSEXT WG , Donald Eastlake From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: [dnsext] FQDN maximum length In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 01 Jan 2010 10:04:04 +1100." Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 10:10:04 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Mark Andrews writes: > > In message , Stuart Cheshire > wr > ites: > > On 30 Dec 2009, at 18:26, Mark Andrews wrote: > > > > > What actually says is: > > > > > > labels 63 octets or less plus a length octet. > > > names 255 octets or less terminating in the root label. > > > > > > which matches neither of your interpretions. > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > Which page of which RFC are you quoting there? > > RFC 1034 > > Internally, programs that manipulate domain names should represent them > as sequences of labels, where each label is a length octet followed by > an octet string. Because all domain names end at the root, which has a > null string for a label, these internal representations can use a length > byte of zero to terminate a domain name. > > To simplify implementations, the total number of octets that represent a > domain name (i.e., the sum of all label octets and label lengths) is > limited to 255. Also RFC 1035. 3.1. Name space definitions Domain names in messages are expressed in terms of a sequence of labels. Each label is represented as a one octet length field followed by that number of octets. Since every domain name ends with the null label of the root, a domain name is terminated by a length byte of zero. The high order two bits of every length octet must be zero, and the remaining six bits of the length field limit the label to 63 octets or less. To simplify implementations, the total length of a domain name (i.e., label octets and label length octets) is restricted to 255 octets or less. > > > Stuart Cheshire > > * Wizard Without Portfolio, Apple Inc. > > * Internet Architecture Board > * www.stuartcheshire.org > > > > > -- > Mark Andrews, ISC > 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia > PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From dmailer.ok@ietf.org Thu Dec 31 19:46:22 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 287253A6860 for ; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 19:46:22 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 19:46:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from amcore.com (unknown [186.18.170.236]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 7800C3A68BC for ; Thu, 31 Dec 2009 19:46:11 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Member dnsext-archive@ietf.org get 80 0FF on ALL Pfizer To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100101034614.7800C3A68BC@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 19:46:11 -0800 (PST)
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