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From: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>
To: "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
CC: "nteague@verisign.com" <nteague@verisign.com>, "rgm@labs.htt-consult.com" <rgm@labs.htt-consult.com>, "stefan.fouant@copperriverit.com" <stefan.fouant@copperriverit.com>
Thread-Topic: Publication of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases requires IPR conformance check
Thread-Index: AdRvqmd7N9ly1zhyRTeZI8TDkhu8jQ4mEeHw
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 17:54:39 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dots] Publication of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases requires IPR conformance check
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Hello!

I'm inquiring again on the IPR check as document shepherd. =20

Nik/Bob/Stefan: Could you please reply to the IPR check thread started at:

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/dots/current/msg02711.html

All authors: this draft is about to expire.  Could it please be resubmitted=
 as -17 before that happens.

Thanks,
Roman

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roman Danyliw
> Sent: Monday, October 29, 2018 1:12 PM
> To: dots@ietf.org
> Cc: 'nteague@verisign.com' <nteague@verisign.com>; 'rgm@labs.htt-
> consult.com' <rgm@labs.htt-consult.com>;
> 'stefan.fouant@copperriverit.com' <stefan.fouant@copperriverit.com>
> Subject: Publication of draft-ietf-dots-use-cases requires IPR conformanc=
e
> check
>=20
> Hello!
>=20
> The use case draft (draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-16) is ready for publicatio=
n but
> is awaiting a shepherd write-up.  As the document shepherd, I need help
> from this draft's authors to complete the write-up as was noted in [1].
> Specifically, I need to assert that that the IPR issues per BCP 78/79  ha=
ve been
> filed.
>=20
> Daniel helpfully started a thread of public assertions on IPR from the au=
thors:
> ** Daniel Migault: https://www.ietf.org/mail-
> archive/web/dots/current/msg02707.html
> ** Frank Xialiang: https://www.ietf.org/mail-
> archive/web/dots/current/msg02708.html
> ** Roland Dobbins: https://www.ietf.org/mail-
> archive/web/dots/current/msg02710.html
> ** Kaname Nishizuka: https://www.ietf.org/mail-
> archive/web/dots/current/msg02711.html
>=20
> A response is still needed from Stefan Fouant, Nik Teague and Robert
> Moskowitz.
>=20
> Stefan/Nik/Bob: can you please respond to Daniel's thread on IPR.
>=20
> Thanks,
> Roman
>=20
> [1] https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/dots/current/msg02715.html


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From: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>
To: "'dots@ietf.org'" <dots@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: WGLC on draft-ietf-dots-architecture-08
Thread-Index: AdSGnlgla3cLRB5MRLWQWFaJSQftBAhqP0ww
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 18:30:36 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dots] WGLC on draft-ietf-dots-architecture-08
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Hello!

Thanks for all of the feedback on the draft.  To address the WGLC discussio=
ns, two updates (-09 and -10) were made (thanks authors); and the related s=
ignal channel draft (-26) was also revised to improve consistency in termin=
ology.  Based on these changes, the document appears to have WG consensus a=
nd be ready for publication.  The next step is for a Shepherd Review and Wr=
ite-Up (by me).

Regards,
Roman

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roman Danyliw
> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2018 5:15 PM
> To: dots@ietf.org
> Subject: WGLC on draft-ietf-dots-architecture-08
>=20
> Hello!
>=20
> Consistent with our discussion at the Bangkok meeting, we are starting a
> working group last call (WGLC) for the DOTS architecture draft:
>=20
> DOTS Architecture
> draft-ietf-dots-architecture-08
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-architecture-08
>=20
> Please send comments to the DOTS mailing list -- feedback on remaining
> issues or needed changes; as well as endorsements that this draft is read=
y.
>=20
> This WGLC will end on December 12, 2018.
>=20
> Thanks,
> Roman and Frank


From nobody Wed Jan  9 10:55:06 2019
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From: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>
To: "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Call for adoption on draft-boucadair-dots-multihoming
Thread-Index: AdSI+VrxTDsjU4gnQ26nDTSSOWTM0wfUvMeQ
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 18:54:51 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dots] Call for adoption on draft-boucadair-dots-multihoming
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Hello!

Per this call on the mailing list, there is support to adopt this draft, dr=
aft-boucadair-dots-multihoming.

Authors: please submit this draft as a -00 WG document.

Regards,
Roman

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roman Danyliw
> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2018 5:31 PM
> To: dots@ietf.org
> Subject: [Dots] Call for adoption on draft-boucadair-dots-multihoming
>=20
> Hello!
>=20
> This is the start of a two week call for input on the WG adoption of the
> document:
>=20
> draft-boucadair-dots-multihoming
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-dots-multihoming-04
>=20
> The document has been presented and discussed at IETF 103, IETF 100 and
> IETF 99;  and revisions have been made based on WG feedback.  This
> document was created and deferred in the interest of simplifying the
> requirements and architecture drafts now getting ready for publication.
>=20
> At the IETF 103 meeting, there were not many participants who had read th=
e
> draft.
>=20
> Please provide feedback to the list/chairs if you believe that this docum=
ent
> should be adopted as a WG document.  The adoption call will end on
> December 14 2018.
>=20
> Regards,
> Roman and Frank
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Dots mailing list
> Dots@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots


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From: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>
To: "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Call for adoption on draft-boucadair-dots-server-discovery
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Hello!

Excluding support from the draft authors, the interest in adoption (or any =
response) was low on the list (one) and also at IETF 103.  The previous dis=
cussion around this draft was more spirited.  My concern is that this call =
may have been lost in the end of year holidays.  To that end, I'm extending=
 the call for adoption.=20

Please provide feedback to the list/chairs if you believe that this documen=
t should be adopted as a WG document.  This extended adoption call will end=
 on Tuesday, January 22.

Regards,
Roman and Frank

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roman Danyliw
> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2018 5:22 PM
> To: dots@ietf.org
> Subject: [Dots] Call for adoption on draft-boucadair-dots-server-discover=
y
>=20
> Hello!
>=20
> This is the start of a two week call for input on the WG adoption of the
> document:
>=20
> draft-boucadair-dots-server-discovery
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-dots-server-discovery-05
>=20
> The document has been presented and discussed at IETF 103, IETF 100 and
> IETF 99;  and revisions have been made based on WG feedback.  Discussion
> of adoption of this draft was previously deferred pending submission of t=
he
> signal draft for publication (which occurred in September 2018).
>=20
> At the IETF 103 meeting, there were not many participants who had read th=
e
> draft.
>=20
> Please provide feedback to the list/chairs if you believe that this docum=
ent
> should be adopted as a WG document.  The adoption call will end on
> December 14 2018.
>=20
> Regards,
> Roman and Frank
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Dots mailing list
> Dots@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots


From nobody Thu Jan 10 06:50:39 2019
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Subject: [Dots] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-17.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the DDoS Open Threat Signaling WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Use cases for DDoS Open Threat Signaling
        Authors         : Roland Dobbins
                          Daniel Migault
                          Stefan Fouant
                          Robert Moskowitz
                          Nik Teague
                          Liang Xia
                          Kaname Nishizuka
	Filename        : draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-17.txt
	Pages           : 14
	Date            : 2019-01-10

Abstract:
   The DDoS Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) effort is intended to provide
   protocols to facilitate interoperability across disparate DDoS
   mitigation solutions.  This document presents use cases which
   describe the interactions expected between the DOTS components as
   well as DOTS messaging exchanges.  These use cases are meant to
   identify the interacting DOTS components, how they collaborate and
   what are the typical information to be exchanged.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dots-use-cases/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-17
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-17

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-17


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From: "Teague, Nik" <nteague@Verisign.com>
To: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>
CC: "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Dots] Call for adoption on draft-boucadair-dots-server-discovery
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Subject: Re: [Dots] Call for adoption on draft-boucadair-dots-server-discovery
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Hi,

I would like to register my support for adoption of this draft as a working=
 group document.

Thanks,

-Nik

> On 9 Jan 2019, at 19:17, Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org> wrote:
>=20
> Hello!
>=20
> Excluding support from the draft authors, the interest in adoption (or an=
y response) was low on the list (one) and also at IETF 103.  The previous d=
iscussion around this draft was more spirited.  My concern is that this cal=
l may have been lost in the end of year holidays.  To that end, I'm extendi=
ng the call for adoption.=20
>=20
> Please provide feedback to the list/chairs if you believe that this docum=
ent should be adopted as a WG document.  This extended adoption call will e=
nd on Tuesday, January 22.
>=20
> Regards,
> Roman and Frank
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roman Danyliw
>> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2018 5:22 PM
>> To: dots@ietf.org
>> Subject: [Dots] Call for adoption on draft-boucadair-dots-server-discove=
ry
>>=20
>> Hello!
>>=20
>> This is the start of a two week call for input on the WG adoption of the
>> document:
>>=20
>> draft-boucadair-dots-server-discovery
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-dots-server-discovery-05
>>=20
>> The document has been presented and discussed at IETF 103, IETF 100 and
>> IETF 99;  and revisions have been made based on WG feedback.  Discussion
>> of adoption of this draft was previously deferred pending submission of =
the
>> signal draft for publication (which occurred in September 2018).
>>=20
>> At the IETF 103 meeting, there were not many participants who had read t=
he
>> draft.
>>=20
>> Please provide feedback to the list/chairs if you believe that this docu=
ment
>> should be adopted as a WG document.  The adoption call will end on
>> December 14 2018.
>>=20
>> Regards,
>> Roman and Frank
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Dots mailing list
>> Dots@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Dots mailing list
> Dots@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots
>=20


From nobody Mon Jan 14 03:57:22 2019
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From: "Jon Shallow" <supjps-ietf@jpshallow.com>
To: "'Roman Danyliw'" <rdd@cert.org>, <dots@ietf.org>
References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0184C52F1B@marathon> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0184C733EB@marathon>
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Subject: Re: [Dots] Call for adoption on draft-boucadair-dots-server-discovery
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Hi there,

I support adoption of this document as a WG document.

Other that already discussed, nothing else currently leaps out at me to say
- this needs thinking about / fixing.

Regards

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: Dots [mailto: dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roman Danyliw
Sent: 09 January 2019 19:17
To: dots@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dots] Call for adoption on
draft-boucadair-dots-server-discovery

Hello!

Excluding support from the draft authors, the interest in adoption (or any
response) was low on the list (one) and also at IETF 103.  The previous
discussion around this draft was more spirited.  My concern is that this
call may have been lost in the end of year holidays.  To that end, I'm
extending the call for adoption. 

Please provide feedback to the list/chairs if you believe that this document
should be adopted as a WG document.  This extended adoption call will end on
Tuesday, January 22.

Regards,
Roman and Frank

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roman Danyliw
> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2018 5:22 PM
> To: dots@ietf.org
> Subject: [Dots] Call for adoption on draft-boucadair-dots-server-discovery
> 
> Hello!
> 
> This is the start of a two week call for input on the WG adoption of the
> document:
> 
> draft-boucadair-dots-server-discovery
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-dots-server-discovery-05
> 
> The document has been presented and discussed at IETF 103, IETF 100 and
> IETF 99;  and revisions have been made based on WG feedback.  Discussion
> of adoption of this draft was previously deferred pending submission of
the
> signal draft for publication (which occurred in September 2018).
> 
> At the IETF 103 meeting, there were not many participants who had read the
> draft.
> 
> Please provide feedback to the list/chairs if you believe that this
document
> should be adopted as a WG document.  The adoption call will end on
> December 14 2018.
> 
> Regards,
> Roman and Frank
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Dots mailing list
> Dots@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots

_______________________________________________
Dots mailing list
Dots@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots


From nobody Mon Jan 14 06:03:22 2019
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: "Panwei (William)" <william.panwei@huawei.com>, "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Wei Pan's comments-1st part (RE: Call for adoption on draft-boucadair-dots-multihoming)
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Subject: [Dots] Wei Pan's comments-1st part (RE: Call for adoption on draft-boucadair-dots-multihoming)
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Hi Wei,

Thank you for the review.

Please see inline a first set of replies that are fixed in -00. We will han=
dle the remaining comments in -01.

Cheers,
Med

De : Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Panwei (William)
Envoy=E9 : mercredi 26 d=E9cembre 2018 11:17
=C0 : dots@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [Dots] Call for adoption on draft-boucadair-dots-multihoming


Hi,



I support adoption of this draft. And meanwhile, I have some comments.



Nits or Typo:

1.      In section 1, s/To that aim, this document adopts the following met=
hodology/To those aims, this document adopts the following methodologies/..



[Med] Changed to "This document adopts the following methodology".



2.      It's better to use "DOTS signal channel sessions" instead of "DOTS =
signaling sessions" in Section 1, Section 5..1 and Section 5.3.

[Med] In order to cover both signal and data sessions, the text uses now "D=
OTS sessions".



3.      In section 4.1, s/Each of these provisioning domains assign IP addr=
esses/prefixes to the CPE/Each of these provisioning domains assigns IP add=
resses/prefixes to the CPE/.

[Med] OK



4.      In section 4.2, the descriptions of the two sub-cases begin as the =
following way:

1. Provider Independent (PI) addresses: XXXXXXXX

2. PA addresses/prefixes: XXXXXXXX

It's better to change the beginning of the two sub-cases like this:

1. Provider Independent (PI) addresses/prefixes: XXXXXXXX

2. Provider Aggregatable (PA) addresses/prefixes: XXXXXXXX



[Med] OK, but I went for PI and PA without expanding them because these two=
 terms were expanded earlier in the document.



5.      In section 5.2, the case of figure 6, s/When PA addresses/prefixes =
are in used/When PA addresses/prefixes are in use/.

[Med] OK.



Some comments:

1.      I suggest having a detailed explanation of the meaning of Provider-=
Independent (PI) and Provider-Aggregatable (PA) in Section 3 Terminology. (=
In addition, I think "Provider-Aggregate" is more suitable than "Provider-A=
ggregatable".)

[Med] Actually, we are using terms that are widely used for multihoming. Th=
e document cites RFC4116 so that the reader can get definitions of these te=
rms.



The reason I want an explanation of these two terms, is that when I read th=
e draft I got confused by some parts where these two terms are used. I'd li=
ke to offer a sample:
Provider-Independent (PI) IP addresses/prefixes: The IP addresses/prefixes
which are used by the devices in the client's domain are owned by the
client's domain itself. If PI IP addresses/prefixes are used by a DOTS
client, then the devices managed by this DOTS client should also use
PI IP addresses/prefixes. The DOTS client can use the same PI IP
addresses/prefixes to communicate with different upstream provisioning
domains.

Provider-Aggregatable (PA) IP addresses/prefixes: The IP addresses/prefixes
which are used by the devices in the client's domain are owned by the
upstream provisioning domains. Each of upstream provisioning domains
assigns IP addresses/prefixes to the client's domain. If PA IP
addresses/prefixes are used by a DOTS client, then the devices managed
by this DOTS client should also use PA IP addresses/prefixes provided
by the same provisioning domain. DOTS clients located on the CPE should
be assigned IP addresses/prefixes by each of the upstream provisioning
domains. DOTS clients not located on the CPE may be assigned IP
addresses/prefixes only by one provisioning domain. When a DOTS client
communicates with a provisioning domain, then this DOTS client must use
the PA IP addresses/prefixes provided by this provisioning domain.



2.      In section 5.1, it describes the rule for DOTS client to choose the=
 correct DOTS server as following:
When conveying a mitigation request to protect the attack target(s),
the DOTS client among the DOTS servers available MUST select a DOTS
server whose network has assigned the prefixes from which target
prefixes and target IP addresses are derived.

When the DOTS client can't find the correct DOTS server according to this r=
ule, to which DOTS server should the mitigation request be sent? all DOTS s=
ervers or an arbitrary one or none? I think it's better to clarify the reas=
onable behavior of DOTS client in the draft.



[Med] The text is clear that a request must send to a server if and only th=
at server is responsible for the address/resource under attack.



I recommend that DOTS client don't send request to any DOTS server in such =
case, because sending request to all DOTS servers may inflict additional ne=
twork disruption. The following sentence can be added at the end of the par=
agraph:
If no appropriate DOTS server can be found, then the DOTS client should not=
 send mitigation request to any DOTS servers.

[Med] MUST in the text you quoted is sufficient, IMO. Will tweak the text t=
o make this clearer.


3.      In section 5.2, it describes 3 cases of deployment model. But the t=
hird case, figure 8, isn't clarified clearly enough.

3.1.      For the case of figure 6 and the case of figure 7, PI addresses a=
nd PA addresses are considered separately and explicitly. But for the case =
of figure 8, it doesn't mention the PI addresses or PA addresses. Is this d=
escription of the case of figure 8 suitable for both PI addresses and PA ad=
dresses? Whether or not, it's better to be clarified in the draft.

3.2.      In the case of figure 8, it describes a rule for CPE:
The CPE MUST select the appropriate source IP address when
forwarding DOTS messages received from an internal DOTS client.

But the CPE isn't a DOTS gateway in this case, how could it "select the app=
ropriate source IP address" ? Besides, there is no description to explain w=
hat is "appropriate" in this case.



4.      In section 5.2, in the case of figure 7, it describes some complica=
tions will arise if PA addresses/prefixes are used. Although the draft says=
 these complications are not specific to DOTS, but it doesn't clarify what =
should DOTS do to handle these complications.



5.      Different descriptions of PI addresses/prefixes are as followings:

The case of figure 6 describes:
Nevertheless, when PI addresses/prefixes are assigned, the DOTS
gateway MUST sent the same request to all its DOTS servers.

The case of figure 7 describes:
If PI addresses/prefixes are in use, the DOTS client can send the
mitigation request for all its PI addresses/prefixes to any one of
the DOTS servers. The use of anycast addresses is NOT RECOMMENDED.

The case of figure 9 describes:
When PI addresses/prefixes are used, DOTS clients can contact any of
the DOTS gateways to send a DOTS message. DOTS gateway will then
relay the request to the DOTS server.

I don't get the reason why the mitigation request need to be sent to all DO=
TS servers in the case of figure 6 but only to one of the DOTS servers in t=
he cases of figure 7 and figure 9. I don't figure out the need of such diff=
erences.



6.      About the anycast addresses:

6.1.      There are several places in the draft saying that the use of anyc=
ast addresses is NOT RECOMMENDED, but  the reason isn't clarified. So I get=
 confused why anycast is problematic in these cases.

For example, the cases of figure 7 and figure 9 describe that when PI addre=
sses/prefixes are used the DOTS client can send request to any one of the D=
OTS servers/DOTS gateways, using anycast addresses can achieve this more ea=
sily but it is not recommended.

6.2.      Does it imply that the use of anycast addresses for DOTS servers =
is appropriate for those cases which don't say "anycast is not recommended"=
? Because not all cases describe the use of anycast addresses for DOTS serv=
ers.

For example, in the case of figure 6, it doesn't mention the anycast addres=
ses for DOTS servers, can the anycast addresses for DOTS servers be used?



7.      In section 5.3, in the case of figure 9, it describes:
When PA addresses/prefixes are used, but no filter rules are provided
to DOTS clients, these later MUST contact all DOTS gateways
simultaneously to send a DOTS message. Upon receipt of a request by
a DOTS gateway, it MUST check whether the request is to be forwarded
upstream or be rejected.

It doesn't clarify the rule that the DOTS gateway should be according to. I=
n which condition should the DOTS gateway forward the request or reject the=
 request?





Best Regards

Wei Pan





> -----Original Message-----

> From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roman Danyliw

> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2018 6:31 AM

> To: dots@ietf.org

> Subject: [Dots] Call for adoption on draft-boucadair-dots-multihoming

>

> Hello!

>

> This is the start of a two week call for input on the WG adoption of the

> document:

>

> draft-boucadair-dots-multihoming

> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-dots-multihoming-04

>

> The document has been presented and discussed at IETF 103, IETF 100 and

> IETF 99;  and revisions have been made based on WG feedback.  This

> document was created and deferred in the interest of simplifying the

> requirements and architecture drafts now getting ready for publication..

>

> At the IETF 103 meeting, there were not many participants who had read th=
e

> draft.

>

> Please provide feedback to the list/chairs if you believe that this docum=
ent

> should be adopted as a WG document.  The adoption call will end on

> December 14 2018.

>

> Regards,

> Roman and Frank

>

> _______________________________________________

> Dots mailing list

> Dots@ietf.org

> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots

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<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:b=
lack">Hi Wei, <o:p>
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:0cm">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:b=
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<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">Thank you for the review.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:0cm">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:0cm">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">Please see inline a first set of replies that are fixe=
d in -00. We will handle the remaining comments in -01.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:0cm">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:0cm">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:0cm">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">Med<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:0cm">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
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<div>
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0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Dots=
 [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>De la part de</b> Panwei (William)<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> mercredi 26 d=E9cembre 2018 11:17<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> dots@ietf.org<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dots] Call for adoption on draft-boucadair-dots-mu=
ltihoming<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:0cm">
<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Hi,<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I support ad=
option of this draft. And meanwhile, I have some comments.<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Nits or Typo=
:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:21.25pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:-=
21.25pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">1.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;">In section 1, s/To that aim, this document adopts the foll=
owing methodology/To
<b>those aims</b>, this document adopts the following <b>methodologies</b>/=
..<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:21.25pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:-=
21.25pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">[=
Med] Changed to &#8220;This document adopts the following methodology&#8221=
;.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:21.25pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:-=
21.25pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">2.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;">It&#8217;s better to use &quot;DOTS signal channel session=
s&quot; instead of &quot;DOTS signaling sessions&quot; in Section 1, Sectio=
n 5..1 and Section 5.3.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">[=
Med] In order to cover both signal and data sessions, the text uses now &#8=
220;DOTS sessions&#8221;.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:21.25pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:-=
21.25pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">3.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;">In section 4.1, s/Each of these provisioning domains assig=
n IP addresses/prefixes to the CPE/Each of these provisioning domains
<b>assigns</b> IP addresses/prefixes to the CPE/.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">[=
Med] OK<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:21.25pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:-=
21.25pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">4.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;">In section 4.2, the descriptions of the two sub-cases begi=
n as the following way:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:35.45pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">1. Provider Independent =
(PI) addresses: XXXXXXXX<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:35.45pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">2. PA addresses/prefixes=
: XXXXXXXX</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:21.25pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">It&#8217;s better to change the beginning of the two sub-cases li=
ke this:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:35.45pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">1. Provider Independent =
(PI) addresses/prefixes: XXXXXXXX<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:35.45pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">2. Provider Aggregatable=
 (PA) addresses/prefixes: XXXXXXXX<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">[=
Med] OK, but I went for PI and PA without expanding them because these two =
terms were expanded earlier in the document.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:21.25pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:-=
21.25pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">5.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;">In section 5.2, the case of figure 6, s/When PA addresses/=
prefixes are in used/When PA addresses/prefixes are in
<b>use</b>/.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">[=
Med] OK.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Some comment=
s:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:21.25pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:-=
21.25pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">1.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;">I suggest having a detailed explanation of the meaning of =
Provider-Independent (PI) and Provider-Aggregatable (PA) in Section 3 Termi=
nology. (In addition, I think &quot;Provider-Aggregate&quot; is more
 suitable than &quot;Provider-Aggregatable&quot;.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">[=
Med] Actually, we are using terms that are widely used for multihoming. The=
 document cites RFC4116 so that the reader can get
 definitions of these terms. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:21.25pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">The reason I want an explanation of these two terms, is that when=
 I read the draft I got confused by some parts where these two terms are us=
ed. I&#8217;d like to offer a sample:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">Provider-Independent (PI=
) IP addresses/prefixes: The IP addresses/prefixes<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-indent:27.0pt;text-autospace:no=
ne">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">which are used by the de=
vices in the client&#8217;s domain are owned by the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-indent:27.0pt;text-autospace:no=
ne">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">client&#8217;s domain it=
self. If PI IP addresses/prefixes are used by a DOTS<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-indent:27.0pt;text-autospace:no=
ne">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">client, then the devices=
 managed by this DOTS client should also use<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-indent:27.0pt;text-autospace:no=
ne">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">PI IP addresses/prefixes=
. The DOTS client can use the same PI IP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-indent:27.0pt;text-autospace:no=
ne">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">addresses/prefixes to co=
mmunicate with different upstream provisioning<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-indent:27.0pt;text-autospace:no=
ne">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">domains.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">Provider-Aggregatable (P=
A) IP addresses/prefixes: The IP addresses/prefixes<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-indent:27.0pt;text-autospace:no=
ne">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">which are used by the de=
vices in the client&#8217;s domain are owned by the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-indent:27.0pt;text-autospace:no=
ne">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">upstream provisioning do=
mains. Each of upstream provisioning domains<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-indent:27.0pt;text-autospace:no=
ne">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">assigns IP addresses/pre=
fixes to the client&#8217;s domain. If PA IP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-indent:27.0pt;text-autospace:no=
ne">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">addresses/prefixes are u=
sed by a DOTS client, then the devices managed<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-indent:27.0pt;text-autospace:no=
ne">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">by this DOTS client shou=
ld also use PA IP addresses/prefixes provided<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-indent:27.0pt;text-autospace:no=
ne">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">by the same provisioning=
 domain. DOTS clients located on the CPE should<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-indent:27.0pt;text-autospace:no=
ne">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">be assigned IP addresses=
/prefixes by each of the upstream provisioning<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-indent:27.0pt;text-autospace:no=
ne">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">domains. DOTS clients no=
t located on the CPE may be assigned IP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-indent:27.0pt;text-autospace:no=
ne">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">addresses/prefixes only =
by one provisioning domain. When a DOTS client<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-indent:27.0pt;text-autospace:no=
ne">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">communicates with a prov=
isioning domain, then this DOTS client must use<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-indent:27.0pt;text-autospace:no=
ne">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">the PA IP addresses/pref=
ixes provided by this provisioning domain.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:21.25pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:21.25pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:-=
21.25pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">2.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;">In section 5.1, it describes the rule for DOTS client to c=
hoose the correct DOTS server as following:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">When conveying a mitigat=
ion request to protect the attack target(s),<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">the DOTS client among th=
e DOTS servers available MUST select a DOTS<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">server whose network has=
 assigned the prefixes from which target<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">prefixes and target IP a=
ddresses are derived.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:21.3pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">When the DOTS client can&#8217;t find the correct DOTS server acc=
ording to this rule, to which DOTS server should the mitigation request be =
sent? all DOTS servers or an arbitrary one or none? I think it&#8217;s
 better to clarify the reasonable behavior of DOTS client in the draft. <o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">[=
Med] The text is clear that a request must send to a server if and only tha=
t server is responsible for the address/resource under
 attack.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:21.3pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">I recommend that DOTS client don&#8217;t send request to any DOTS=
 server in such case, because sending request to all DOTS servers may infli=
ct additional network disruption. The following sentence can be
 added at the end of the paragraph: <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">If no appropriate DOTS s=
erver can be found, then the DOTS client should not send mitigation request=
 to any DOTS servers.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:0cm;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:0cm;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">[Med] MUST in the text you quoted is sufficient, IMO. =
Will tweak the text to make this clearer.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:0cm;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:21.25pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:-=
21.25pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">3.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;">In section 5.2, it describes 3 cases of deployment model. =
But the third case, figure 8, isn&#8217;t clarified clearly enough.<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:49.65pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:-=
1.0cm">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">3.1.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;">For the case of figure 6 and the case of figure 7, PI addr=
esses and PA addresses are considered separately and explicitly. But for th=
e case of figure 8, it doesn&#8217;t mention the PI addresses
 or PA addresses. Is this description of the case of figure 8 suitable for =
both PI addresses and PA addresses? Whether or not, it&#8217;s better to be=
 clarified in the draft.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:49.65pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:-=
1.0cm">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">3.2.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;">In the case of figure 8, it describes a rule for CPE:<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:63.8pt;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">The CPE MUST select the =
appropriate source IP address when<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:63.8pt;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">forwarding DOTS messages=
 received from an internal DOTS client.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:49.65pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">But the CPE isn&#8217;t a DOTS gateway in this case, how could it=
 &#8220;select the appropriate source IP address&#8221; ? Besides, there is=
 no description to explain what is &#8220;appropriate&#8221; in this case.<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:21.25pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:-=
21.25pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">4.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;">In section 5.2, in the case of figure 7, it describes some=
 complications will arise if PA addresses/prefixes are used. Although the d=
raft says these complications are not specific to DOTS,
 but it doesn&#8217;t clarify what should DOTS do to handle these complicat=
ions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:21.25pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:-=
21.25pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">5.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;">Different descriptions of PI addresses/prefixes are as fol=
lowings:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:21.3pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">The case of figure 6 describes:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">Nevertheless, when PI ad=
dresses/prefixes are assigned, the DOTS<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">gateway MUST sent the sa=
me request to all its DOTS servers.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:21.3pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">The case of figure 7 describes:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">If PI addresses/prefixes=
 are in use, the DOTS client can send the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">mitigation request for a=
ll its PI addresses/prefixes to any one of<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">the DOTS servers. The us=
e of anycast addresses is NOT RECOMMENDED.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:21.3pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">The case of figure 9 describes:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">When PI addresses/prefix=
es are used, DOTS clients can contact any of<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">the DOTS gateways to sen=
d a DOTS message. DOTS gateway will then<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">relay the request to the=
 DOTS server.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:21.3pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">I don&#8217;t get the reason why the mitigation request need to b=
e sent to all DOTS servers in the case of figure 6 but only to one of the D=
OTS servers in the cases of figure 7 and figure 9. I don&#8217;t figure
 out the need of such differences.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:21.25pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:-=
21.25pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">6.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;">About the anycast addresses:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:49.65pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:-=
1.0cm">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">6.1.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;">There are several places in the draft saying that the use =
of anycast addresses is NOT RECOMMENDED, but&nbsp; the reason isn&#8217;t c=
larified. So I get confused why anycast is problematic in these cases.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:49.65pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">For example, the cases of figure 7 and figure 9 describe that whe=
n PI addresses/prefixes are used the DOTS client can send request to any on=
e of the DOTS servers/DOTS gateways, using anycast addresses
 can achieve this more easily but it is not recommended.<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:49.65pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:-=
1.0cm">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">6.2.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;">Does it imply that the use of anycast addresses for DOTS s=
ervers is appropriate for those cases which don&#8217;t say &#8220;anycast =
is not recommended&#8221;? Because not all cases describe the use of anycas=
t
 addresses for DOTS servers.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:49.65pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">For example, in the case of figure 6, it doesn&#8217;t mention th=
e anycast addresses for DOTS servers, can the anycast addresses for DOTS se=
rvers be used?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:21.3pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:-2=
1.25pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">7.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;">In section 5.3, in the case of figure 9, it describes:<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">When PA addresses/prefix=
es are used, but no filter rules are provided<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">to DOTS clients, these l=
ater MUST contact all DOTS gateways<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">simultaneously to send a=
 DOTS message. Upon receipt of a request by<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">a DOTS gateway, it MUST =
check whether the request is to be forwarded<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">upstream or be rejected.=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:21.3pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">It doesn&#8217;t clarify the rule that the DOTS gateway should be=
 according to. In which condition should the DOTS gateway forward the reque=
st or reject the request?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Best Regards=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Wei Pan<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roman Danyliw<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2018 6:31 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; To: dots@ietf.org<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; Subject: [Dots] Call for adoption on draft-boucadair-dots-multihoming<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; Hello!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; This is the start of a two week call for input on the WG adoption of th=
e<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; document:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; draft-boucadair-dots-multihoming<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-dots-multihoming-04<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; The document has been presented and discussed at IETF 103, IETF 100 and=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; IETF 99;&nbsp; and revisions have been made based on WG feedback.&nbsp;=
 This<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; document was created and deferred in the interest of simplifying the<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; requirements and architecture drafts now getting ready for publication.=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; At the IETF 103 meeting, there were not many participants who had read =
the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; draft.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; Please provide feedback to the list/chairs if you believe that this doc=
ument<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; should be adopted as a WG document.&nbsp; The adoption call will end on=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; December 14 2018.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; Roman and Frank<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; _______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; Dots mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; Dots@ietf.org<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From nobody Mon Jan 14 06:52:39 2019
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the DDoS Open Threat Signaling WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Multi-homing Deployment Considerations for Distributed-Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS)
        Authors         : Mohamed Boucadair
                          Tirumaleswar Reddy
	Filename        : draft-ietf-dots-multihoming-00.txt
	Pages           : 14
	Date            : 2019-01-14

Abstract:
   This document discusses multi-homing considerations for Distributed-
   Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS).  The goal is to
   provide a set of guidance for DOTS clients/gateways when multihomed.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dots-multihoming/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-multihoming-00
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-dots-multihoming-00


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0184C52F1B@marathon> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0184C733EB@marathon>
From: Flemming Andreasen <fandreas@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dots] Call for adoption on draft-boucadair-dots-server-discovery
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--------------46E5E66C95BBC34F3FC4E2A4
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I support WG adoption of this draft.

Thanks

-- Flemming

On 1/9/19 2:17 PM, Roman Danyliw wrote:
> Hello!
>
> Excluding support from the draft authors, the interest in adoption (or any response) was low on the list (one) and also at IETF 103.  The previous discussion around this draft was more spirited.  My concern is that this call may have been lost in the end of year holidays.  To that end, I'm extending the call for adoption.
>
> Please provide feedback to the list/chairs if you believe that this document should be adopted as a WG document.  This extended adoption call will end on Tuesday, January 22.
>
> Regards,
> Roman and Frank
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roman Danyliw
>> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2018 5:22 PM
>> To: dots@ietf.org
>> Subject: [Dots] Call for adoption on draft-boucadair-dots-server-discovery
>>
>> Hello!
>>
>> This is the start of a two week call for input on the WG adoption of the
>> document:
>>
>> draft-boucadair-dots-server-discovery
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-dots-server-discovery-05
>>
>> The document has been presented and discussed at IETF 103, IETF 100 and
>> IETF 99;  and revisions have been made based on WG feedback.  Discussion
>> of adoption of this draft was previously deferred pending submission of the
>> signal draft for publication (which occurred in September 2018).
>>
>> At the IETF 103 meeting, there were not many participants who had read the
>> draft.
>>
>> Please provide feedback to the list/chairs if you believe that this document
>> should be adopted as a WG document.  The adoption call will end on
>> December 14 2018.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Roman and Frank
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Dots mailing list
>> Dots@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots
> _______________________________________________
> Dots mailing list
> Dots@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots
> .
>


--------------46E5E66C95BBC34F3FC4E2A4
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<html>
  <head>
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
  </head>
  <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    I support WG adoption of this draft. <br>
    <br>
    Thanks <br>
    <br>
    -- Flemming <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/9/19 2:17 PM, Roman Danyliw wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0184C733EB@marathon">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Hello!

Excluding support from the draft authors, the interest in adoption (or any response) was low on the list (one) and also at IETF 103.  The previous discussion around this draft was more spirited.  My concern is that this call may have been lost in the end of year holidays.  To that end, I'm extending the call for adoption. 

Please provide feedback to the list/chairs if you believe that this document should be adopted as a WG document.  This extended adoption call will end on Tuesday, January 22.

Regards,
Roman and Frank

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">-----Original Message-----
From: Dots [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Roman Danyliw
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2018 5:22 PM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dots@ietf.org">dots@ietf.org</a>
Subject: [Dots] Call for adoption on draft-boucadair-dots-server-discovery

Hello!

This is the start of a two week call for input on the WG adoption of the
document:

draft-boucadair-dots-server-discovery
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-dots-server-discovery-05">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-dots-server-discovery-05</a>

The document has been presented and discussed at IETF 103, IETF 100 and
IETF 99;  and revisions have been made based on WG feedback.  Discussion
of adoption of this draft was previously deferred pending submission of the
signal draft for publication (which occurred in September 2018).

At the IETF 103 meeting, there were not many participants who had read the
draft.

Please provide feedback to the list/chairs if you believe that this document
should be adopted as a WG document.  The adoption call will end on
December 14 2018.

Regards,
Roman and Frank

_______________________________________________
Dots mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Dots@ietf.org">Dots@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots</a>
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
_______________________________________________
Dots mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Dots@ietf.org">Dots@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots</a>
.

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------46E5E66C95BBC34F3FC4E2A4--


From nobody Mon Jan 14 19:23:49 2019
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In-Reply-To: <0b23b46d-2a41-eb04-3763-190a4448510f@cisco.com>
From: Daniel Migault <daniel.migault@ericsson.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 22:23:30 -0500
Message-ID: <CADZyTkmDHOo3=mKAoMOcNFAVMvaPF1_+TJYsF_KoSC0XKQThSg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Flemming Andreasen <fandreas@cisco.com>
Cc: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>, "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Dots] Call for adoption on draft-boucadair-dots-server-discovery
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I support the adoption of the draft.

While this should not prevent the adoption, I would avoid mDNS and prefer
the use of SD with unicast DNS. For homenet, .local should be replaced by
home.arpa.  I am not sure NAPTR solution could not be replaced by DNS-SD as
well. I am happy to look at these discussions.

Yours,
Daniel


On Mon, Jan 14, 2019 at 12:29 PM Flemming Andreasen <fandreas@cisco.com>
wrote:

> I support WG adoption of this draft.
>
> Thanks
>
> -- Flemming
>
> On 1/9/19 2:17 PM, Roman Danyliw wrote:
>
> Hello!
>
> Excluding support from the draft authors, the interest in adoption (or an=
y response) was low on the list (one) and also at IETF 103.  The previous d=
iscussion around this draft was more spirited.  My concern is that this cal=
l may have been lost in the end of year holidays.  To that end, I'm extendi=
ng the call for adoption.
>
> Please provide feedback to the list/chairs if you believe that this docum=
ent should be adopted as a WG document.  This extended adoption call will e=
nd on Tuesday, January 22.
>
> Regards,
> Roman and Frank
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org <dots-bounces@ietf.org>] On Beha=
lf Of Roman Danyliw
> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2018 5:22 PM
> To: dots@ietf.org
> Subject: [Dots] Call for adoption on draft-boucadair-dots-server-discover=
y
>
> Hello!
>
> This is the start of a two week call for input on the WG adoption of the
> document:
>
> draft-boucadair-dots-server-discoveryhttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bo=
ucadair-dots-server-discovery-05
>
> The document has been presented and discussed at IETF 103, IETF 100 and
> IETF 99;  and revisions have been made based on WG feedback.  Discussion
> of adoption of this draft was previously deferred pending submission of t=
he
> signal draft for publication (which occurred in September 2018).
>
> At the IETF 103 meeting, there were not many participants who had read th=
e
> draft.
>
> Please provide feedback to the list/chairs if you believe that this docum=
ent
> should be adopted as a WG document.  The adoption call will end on
> December 14 2018.
>
> Regards,
> Roman and Frank
>
> _______________________________________________
> Dots mailing listDots@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots
>
> _______________________________________________
> Dots mailing listDots@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots
> ..
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Dots mailing list
> Dots@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots
>

--000000000000376c40057f76b027
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I support the adoption of the draft. <br></div><div><=
br></div><div>While this should not prevent the adoption, I would avoid mDN=
S and prefer the use of SD with unicast DNS. For homenet, .local should be =
replaced by home.arpa.=C2=A0 I am not sure NAPTR solution could not be repl=
aced by DNS-SD as well. I am happy to look at these discussions. <br></div>=
<div><br></div><div>Yours, <br></div><div>Daniel=C2=A0 <br></div><div><br><=
/div><div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Mon, Jan=
 14, 2019 at 12:29 PM Flemming Andreasen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fandreas@cis=
co.com">fandreas@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,2=
04,204);padding-left:1ex">
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    I support WG adoption of this draft. <br>
    <br>
    Thanks <br>
    <br>
    -- Flemming <br>
    <br>
    <div class=3D"gmail-m_2305980191653654753moz-cite-prefix">On 1/9/19 2:1=
7 PM, Roman Danyliw wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <pre class=3D"gmail-m_2305980191653654753moz-quote-pre">Hello!

Excluding support from the draft authors, the interest in adoption (or any =
response) was low on the list (one) and also at IETF 103.  The previous dis=
cussion around this draft was more spirited.  My concern is that this call =
may have been lost in the end of year holidays.  To that end, I&#39;m exten=
ding the call for adoption.=20

Please provide feedback to the list/chairs if you believe that this documen=
t should be adopted as a WG document.  This extended adoption call will end=
 on Tuesday, January 22.

Regards,
Roman and Frank

</pre>
      <blockquote type=3D"cite">
        <pre class=3D"gmail-m_2305980191653654753moz-quote-pre">-----Origin=
al Message-----
From: Dots [<a class=3D"gmail-m_2305980191653654753moz-txt-link-freetext" h=
ref=3D"mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:dots-bounces@=
ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Roman Danyliw
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2018 5:22 PM
To: <a class=3D"gmail-m_2305980191653654753moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=
=3D"mailto:dots@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dots@ietf.org</a>
Subject: [Dots] Call for adoption on draft-boucadair-dots-server-discovery

Hello!

This is the start of a two week call for input on the WG adoption of the
document:

draft-boucadair-dots-server-discovery
<a class=3D"gmail-m_2305980191653654753moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https=
://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-dots-server-discovery-05" target=3D"=
_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-dots-server-discovery-0=
5</a>

The document has been presented and discussed at IETF 103, IETF 100 and
IETF 99;  and revisions have been made based on WG feedback.  Discussion
of adoption of this draft was previously deferred pending submission of the
signal draft for publication (which occurred in September 2018).

At the IETF 103 meeting, there were not many participants who had read the
draft.

Please provide feedback to the list/chairs if you believe that this documen=
t
should be adopted as a WG document.  The adoption call will end on
December 14 2018.

Regards,
Roman and Frank

_______________________________________________
Dots mailing list
<a class=3D"gmail-m_2305980191653654753moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"ma=
ilto:Dots@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Dots@ietf.org</a>
<a class=3D"gmail-m_2305980191653654753moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https=
://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.o=
rg/mailman/listinfo/dots</a>
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre class=3D"gmail-m_2305980191653654753moz-quote-pre">_____________=
__________________________________
Dots mailing list
<a class=3D"gmail-m_2305980191653654753moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"ma=
ilto:Dots@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Dots@ietf.org</a>
<a class=3D"gmail-m_2305980191653654753moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https=
://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.o=
rg/mailman/listinfo/dots</a>
..

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </div>

_______________________________________________<br>
Dots mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Dots@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Dots@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>

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Subject: Re: [Dots] Call for adoption on draft-boucadair-dots-server-discovery
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Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 18:14:04 -0600
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
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Subject: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25
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AD review of -25.  (Note that -26 is out already, but to preserve my
sanity I am still using the section numbers from the -25.  I took a
quick look at the diff, and tried to remove comments that are no longer
applicable, but probably missed some.

This review is pretty long, but I think the document is actually in
pretty good shape -- the length of review comments is just a normal
frequency of rough edges multiplied by a long document.

I will make a github pull request with some changes that I think are
just editorial (but feel free to bring them up as discussion items if
you are not sure that they are editorial, disagree with the changes,
etc.)

We should probably introduce (or avoid) the concept of "peace-time"
(sometimes spelled without the hyphen) and perhaps the corresponding
attack situation before using it.

Section 1

I wasn't sure whether the RFC 4987 reference was supposed to be for what
an ACK-flood is or the fact that it is CPU-exhausting or something else.
(Searching for those terms in its text did not help me come to a
conclusion.)

We also talk about "DOTS servers" and "DOTS agents" in Section 1, before
we've defined the terminology.  But these two are sufficiently
self-explanatory that it may be fine to leave them as-is.

                                                 This protocol enables
   cooperation between DOTS agents to permit a highly-automated network
   defense that is robust, reliable, and secure.

We should explain somewhere what we mean by "secure".  (I guess, that
the signal and data channels are integrity- and
confidentiality-protected, and that changes in mitigation status are not
made unless properly authorized.)

Section 3

            DOTS clients MAY alternatively support means to dynamically
   discover the ports used by their DOTS servers.  [...]

If we have some examples in mind of dynamic discovery protocols, it
would be appropriate to provide informative references here.

We should also have an informative reference for "Happy Eyeballs" (e.g.,
RFC 8305).

   From that standpoint, this document specifies a YANG module for
   representing DOTS mitigation scopes, DOTS signal channel session
   [...]

Which standpoint?

   Representing these data as CBOR data is assumed to follow the rules
   in [I-D.ietf-core-yang-cbor] or those in [RFC7951] combined with
   JSON/CBOR conversion rules in [RFC7049].  All parameters in the
   payload of the DOTS signal channel are mapped to CBOR types as
   specified in Section 6.

How do I know which set of rules is in use?  Are the two sets of rules
equivalent and interoperable?

   DOTS agents MUST support GET, PUT, and DELETE CoAP methods.  [...]

As written, this applies to all agents (clients, servers, and proxies).
Presumably this is intended, but I just wante to double-check --
sometimes it's okay to place weaker requirements on clients.

   In deployments where one or more translators (e.g., Traditional NAT
   [RFC3022], CGN [RFC6888], NAT64 [RFC6146], NPTv6 [RFC6296]) are
   enabled between the client's network and the DOTS server, DOTS signal
   channel messages forwarded to a DOTS server MUST NOT include internal
   IP addresses/prefixes and/or port numbers; external addresses/
   prefixes and/or port numbers as assigned by the translator MUST be

Do we want to give any examples of signal channel messages that might
include internal addresses/prefixes?

   Such procedure is needed to avoid experiencing long connection
   delays.  For example, if an IPv4 path to reach a DOTS server is
   found, but the DOTS server's IPv6 path is not working, a dual-stack
   DOTS client may experience a significant connection delay compared to
   an IPv4-only DOTS client.  [...]

There seems a bit of a mismatch between "found" and "not working".  If
the point is supposed to be that the client is going to try both IPv4
and IPv6 but the v6 path has issues and it would take the client's
algorithm some extra time to choose to fall back to v4, then maybe "iv
an IPv4 path to a DOTS server is functional and there is also an
apparently present but non-functional IPv6 path to the same server"?

                                  These connection attempts are
   performed by the DOTS client when it initializes.  The results of the
   Happy Eyeballs procedure are used by the DOTS client for sending its
   subsequent messages to the DOTS server.

I see this is scoped to "when the client initializes", so I don't know
whether it adds more or not to end with "for the duration of the DOTS
session" or some similar scoping for the caching of the happy eyeballs
results.

   client because there is no long delay before using IPv4 and TCP.  The
   DOTS client repeats the mechanism to discover whether DOTS signal
   channel messages with DTLS over UDP becomes available from the DOTS
   server, so the DOTS client can migrate the DOTS signal channel from

What would cause UDP to "become available"?  Would this be a case like
if there's a stateful NAT or where we need to actively apply some sort
of NAT traversal?  If so, do we want to list it as an example?  (If it's
a complicated scenario, it may not be worth listing an example, of
course.)

I'm not sure if we want to add some annotations to Figure 4 that (e.g.)
the initial DTLS attempts do not need to be strictly ordered in the
order presented, or to indicate which lines are retries.

Section 4.4

   GET:    DOTS clients may use the GET method to subscribe to DOTS
           server status messages, or to retrieve the list of its
           mitigations maintained by a DOTS server (Section 4.4.2).

I'm not really a canonical HTTP expert, but I suspect that using GET to
"subscribe" will raise some eyebrows at later stages of review.  Maybe
we should just leave it as-is and wait for such review to arrive,
though, rather than trying to do something preemptively.

I don't know if this is the proper section to talk about it, but we
should probably have some text justifying the use of application-layer
acknowledgment as opposed to just using Confirmable CoAP messages.

Section 4.4.1

If Figure 5 is going to use actual/example values for cuid and mid, then
I'd suggest also using actual/example values for the JSON fields
(instead of "integer" and "string" and such).

   cuid:  Stands for Client Unique Identifier.  A globally unique
      identifier that is meant to prevent collisions among DOTS clients,
      especially those from the same domain.  It MUST be generated by
      DOTS clients.

In order to get global uniqueness we either need sufficient randomness
or a hierarchical allocation strategy.  Since we recommend a strategy
that involves hashing the (public) client certificate, we may also want
to note that this value does not need to be unguessable.  If a random
allocation is possible, I suggest giving guidance on how many random
bits must be used to sufficiently ensure global uniqueness (128 might be
enough).

                          The output of the cryptographic hash algorithm
      is truncated to 16 bytes; truncation is done by stripping off the
      final 16 bytes.  The truncated output is base64url encoded.

side note: Truncation to 128 bits reduces the collision resistance to
64-bit strength, though this is probably acceptable in this use case.

      DOTS servers MUST return 4.09 (Conflict) error code to a DOTS peer
      to notify that the 'cuid' is already in-use by another DOTS
      client.  Upon receipt of that error code, a new 'cuid' MUST be
      generated by the DOTS peer.

Is there any way in which this situation could arise during some sort of
migration scenario?

      Client-domain DOTS gateways MUST handle 'cuid' collision directly
      and it is RECOMMENDED that 'cuid' collision is handled directly by
      server-domain DOTS gateways.

Is a gateway supposed to know if it is "client-side" or "server-side" by
explicit configuration or some more automatic method?

   'cuid' and 'mid' MUST NOT appear in the PUT request message body.

Do we need to say this given that there's no obvious structure in which
to put them?  (That is, is this just a reminder to implementors of a
previous version of the draft versus guidance to new implementations?)

      The prefix list MUST NOT include broadcast, loopback, or multicast
      addresses.  These addresses are considered as invalid values.  In

Does "invalid" mean that the particular address gets ignored or that the
entire request is rejected?

   target-fqdn:   A list of Fully Qualified Domain Names (FQDNs)
      identifying resources under attack.  An FQDN is the full name of a
      resource, rather than just its hostname.  For example, "venera" is
      a hostname, and "venera.isi.edu" is an FQDN [RFC1983].

I would suggest referring to draft-ietf-dnsop-terminology-bis rather
than trying to reproduce a definition of FQDN.

We also may want to note that the DNS view can change depending on the
vantage point used to make the observation.

On page 18 we say that server-domain DOTS gateways "MUST supply [...]
'cdid'", but the previous paragraph says that there SHOULD be a
configuration option for whether to insert 'cdid' on such systems.  The
two requirements are in conflict; which was intended?  (I assume the
MUST -- why would it be desired to not have the information available?)

The same paragraph also says that the 'cdid' is "likely to be the same
as" the 'cuid', though in addition to the listed reasons the client only
has a SHOULD requirement to follow this procedure for generating 'cuid';
it may be worth noting the client's leeway here as well.

      If a DOTS client is provisioned, for example, with distinct
      certificates as a function of the peer server-domain DOTS gateway,
      distinct 'cdid' values may be supplied by a server-domain DOTS
      gateway.  The ultimate DOTS server MUST treat those 'cdid' values
      as equivalent.

Is this paragraph trying to say that a client might supply different
certs to different gateways in the same domain (e.g., if one such
gateway does not support ecdsa certs)?  It was pretty confusing on the
first read, in particular how the ultimate DOTS server would know that
the different 'cdid' values actually correspond to the same client
[domain].

      DOTS servers MUST ignore 'cdid' attributes that are directly
      supplied by source DOTS clients or client-domain DOTS gateways.
      This implies that first server-domain DOTS gateways MUST strip
      'cdid' attributes supplied by DOTS clients.  DOTS servers SHOULD
      support a configuration parameter to identify DOTS gateways that
      are trusted to supply 'cdid' attributes.

Is there any mechanism (e.g., autodetection) other than this by which
servers/proxies can learn about the topology information needed to
fulfil these requirements?

   Because of the complexity to handle partial failure cases, this
   specification does not allow for including multiple mitigation
   requests in the same PUT request.  Concretely, a DOTS client MUST NOT
   include multiple 'scope' parameters in the same PUT request.

"multiple 'scope' parameters" reads like a CBOR object with duplicate
keys; is this intended to refer to a multi-valued array?

   The DOTS server couples the DOTS signal and data channel sessions
   using the DOTS client identity and optionally the 'cdid' parameter

This requires the client to use the same certificate to authenticate the
signal and data channels to a given server (even when a gateway is in
use).  Above, we discussed cases where a client might have multiple
certificates available.  Where do we specify the requirement to use the
same certificate for signal and data channels?

                                               DOTS agents can safely
   ignore Vendor-Specific parameters they don't understand.

This is not a very useful statemnet if the agent must know that a
parameter is vendor-specific in order to safely ignore it.

   If the DOTS server does not find the 'mid' parameter value conveyed
   in the PUT request in its configuration data, it MAY accept the
   mitigation request by sending back a 2.01 (Created) response to the
   DOTS client; the DOTS server will consequently try to mitigate the
   attack.

   If the DOTS server finds the 'mid' parameter value conveyed in the
   PUT request in its configuration data bound to that DOTS client, it
   MAY update the mitigation request, and a 2.04 (Changed) response is
   returned to indicate a successful update of the mitigation request.

There are two "MAY"s spread across these two paragraphs; do we want to
say anything about in what cases the server might want to have different
behavior (i.e., ignore the MAY)?

                                                  To avoid maintaining a
   long list of overlapping mitigation requests (i.e., requests with the
   same 'trigger-mitigation' type and overlapping scopes) from a DOTS
   client and avoid error-prone provisioning of mitigation requests from
   a DOTS client, the overlapped lower numeric 'mid' MUST be
   automatically deleted and no longer available at the DOTS server.
   For example, if the DOTS server receives a mitigation request which
   overlaps with an existing mitigation with a higher numeric 'mid', the
   DOTS server rejects the request by returning 4.09 (Conflict) to the
   DOTS client.  [...]

This seems to be internally inconsistent -- first we hear that the
overlapped mitigation request with lower 'mid' MUST be deleted (BTW,
note my rewording), but at the end we are hearing that a request to
create an overlapping mitgiation must be rejected.  (A couple pages
later we also say "can be achieved by sending a PUT request [...] that
will override the existing one with overlapping mitigation scopes",
which suggests a resolution of the conflict.

                 The response includes enough information for a DOTS
   client to recognize the source of the conflict as described below:

   conflict-information:  Indicates that a mitigation request is
   [...]

I'm not entirely sure what encoding to infer from just this description
-- conflict-information/-cause/-scope are in the YANG model, but do we
need to say that the response contains a CBOR representation of the
subtree starting at conflict-information (or something like that), or is
this implicitly specified elsewhere in the document?  For example,
Figure 9 has an explicit JSON diagnostic notation for a message
response.

      conflict-scope:  Indicates the conflict scope.  It may include a
         list of IP addresses, a list of prefixes, a list of port
         numbers, a list of target protocols, a list of FQDNs, a list of
         URIs, a list of alias-names, or a 'mid'.

This feels a little under-specified -- do we need to include exactly the
conflicting entries?  Or would we just say something like "this
conflicts with 'mid' 8; figure it out"?

         3:  CUID Collision.  This code is returned when a DOTS client
             uses a 'cuid' that is already used by another DOTS client.
             This code is an indication that the request has been
             rejected and a new request with a new 'cuid' is to be re-
             sent by the DOTS client.  Note that 'conflict-status',
             'conflict-scope', and 'retry-timer' are not returned in the
             error response.

(Do we want "MUST NOT" 2119 language to prevent their inclusion or is
the current descriptive language sufficient?)

      conflict-scope:  Indicates the conflict scope.  It may include a
         list of IP addresses, a list of prefixes, a list of port
         numbers, a list of target protocols, a list of FQDNs, a list of
         URIs, a list of alias-names, or references to conflicting ACLs.

How do I reference an ACL?

                          This can be achieved by sending a PUT request
   with a new 'mid' value that will override the existing one with
   overlapping mitigation scopes.

Do we want to reiterate that the existing one will be deleted?

   For a mitigation request to continue beyond the initial negotiated
   lifetime, the DOTS client has to refresh the current mitigation
   request by sending a new PUT request.  This PUT request MUST use the
   same 'mid' value, and MUST repeat all the other parameters as sent in
   the original mitigation request apart from a possible change to the
   lifetime parameter value.

If the server did not have a check that the other parameters match, what
would happen?  (Do we need normative language that the server MUST
verify the other parameters when the 'mid' matches?)

Section 4.4.2

                          If the representation of all the active
   mitigation requests associated with the DOTS client does not fit
   within a single datagram, the DOTS server MUST use the Block2 Option
   with NUM = 0 in the GET response.  [...]

I'm not very familiar with CoAP blockwise transfers; is this in conflict
with some normal feature-negotiation scheme or is it okay to assume that
the client will be able to handle this even if the client has not
explictly indicated support?

      This is a mandatory attribute when an attack mitigation is
      triggered.  Particularly, 'mitigation-start' is not returned for a
      mitigation with 'status' code set to 8.

Is this better as "triggered" or as "active"?

bps-dropped and pps-dropped "SHOULD be a five-minute average", but that
does not seem quite well-defined.  Is it a rolling five-minute average
over bins of one second, or a binned five-minute average for the last
five-minute interval that ends on a multiple of '5', or something else?

   Upon receipt of a conflict notification message indicating that a
   mitigation request is deactivated because of a conflict, a DOTS
   client MUST NOT resend the same mitigation request before the expiry
   of 'retry-timer'.  It is also recommended that DOTS clients support
   means to alert administrators about mitigation conflicts.

Do we need to say anything regarding the server behavior when a
retransmit or similar was in flight already when the conflict
notification was generated?  (That is, the server's enforcement of the
MUST NOT may need to be restrained.)

   Alternatively, the DOTS client can explicitly deregister itself by
   issuing a GET request that has the Token field set to the token of
   the observation to be cancelled and includes an Observe Option with
   the value set to '1' (deregister).

This seems like the more "polite" behavior (as opposed to just
"forgetting" -- why is the polite behavior not the default behavior?

Does the GET in  Figure 13 need to have a ".well-known" and other path
components?

Section 4.4.3

I'm not questioning the decision, but I am a bit curious how we ended up
with a boolean "attack-status" parameter and no quantitative
measurements.

   The DOTS server indicates the result of processing a PUT request
   using CoAP response codes.  The response code 2.04 (Changed) is
   returned if the DOTS server has accepted the mitigation efficacy
   update.  The error response code 5.03 (Service Unavailable) is
   returned if the DOTS server has erred or is incapable of performing
   the mitigation.

What (if anythin) should the client do in response?  Should the client
assume the server is dead and move to a different one?

Section 4.4.4

   terminating period SHOULD be set by default to 120 seconds.  If the
   client requests mitigation again before the initial active-but-
   terminating period elapses, the DOTS server MAY exponentially
   increase the active-but-terminating period up to a maximum of 300
   seconds (5 minutes).

Is the base of the exponent supposed to be 2 (i.e., a doubling of the
delay)?  This should probably be made explicit.  Also, is the input to
the doubling the previous total delay, or the amount of delay remaining
when the repeated request arrives?

   If a mitigation is triggered due to a signal channel loss, the DOTS
   server relies upon normal triggers to stop that mitigation
   (typically, receipt of a valid DELETE request, expiry of the
   mitigation lifetime, or observation of traffic to the attack target).

I think "observation of traffic" probably needs more explanation -- as
written, it sounds like any packet arriving would be sufficient, which
is probably not the intended behavior...

Section 4.5.1

Does the "max-retransmit" value exclude the initial transmission?

I'm not sure whether there are any particularly interesting security
considerations to mention about what happens when ack-random-factor is
insufficiently random; it seems like things would only get really bad if
the value was constant across peers.

Section 4.5.2

                                                 A DOTS client MUST NOT
   transmit a "CoAP Ping" while waiting for the previous "CoAP Ping"
   response from the same DOTS server.

Is this intended to block retransmissions of the same CoAP Ping?

   sid:  Session Identifier is an identifier for the DOTS signal channel
      session configuration data represented as an integer.  This
      identifier MUST be generated by DOTS clients.  'sid' values MUST
      increase monotonically.

What event triggers the increase?

Section 4.5.3

                                       When a DDoS attack is active,
   refresh requests MUST NOT be sent by DOTS clients and the DOTS server
   MUST NOT terminate the (D)TLS session after the expiry of the value
   returned in Max-Age Option.

It seems like there's a bit of a race condition with attacks and refresh
requests coming in in parallel.

Section  4.6

   The DOTS server can return the error response code 5.03 in response
   to a request from the DOTS client or convey the error response code
   5.03 in a unidirectional notification response from the DOTS server.

Just to check my understanding, this unidirectional notification would
only happen if there was a previous Observe to establish the channel?

The "alt-server-record" description here is pretty vague on the string
formatting used, v4 vs. v6, etc.; I guess that the actual "type
inet:ip-address" in the YANG module is probably specific enough, though.

Section 4.7

The first two paragraphs seem to have high overlap and would probably
benefit from at least being joined together if not also trimmed down a
bit.

   In case of a massive DDoS attack that saturates the incoming link(s)
   to the DOTS client, all traffic from the DOTS server to the DOTS
   client will likely be dropped, although the DOTS server receives
   heartbeat requests in addition to DOTS messages sent by the DOTS
   client.  In this scenario, the DOTS agents MUST behave differently to
   handle message transmission and DOTS session liveliness during link
   saturation:

Do we need to say how the agents independently detect the
link-saturation situation?

Section 5.1

It looks like the tree diagram and the module differ about the
"mandatory false" nature of some nodes, e.g., upper-port.  Perhaps the
tree diagram should be regenerated?

Section 5.2

I mostly expect some heartburn from various folks about overriding
protocol number 0's interpretation as the IPv6 hop-by-hop option to mean
"all protocols", though it will probably be fine in practice.  I am
including a suggested rewording in my editorial changes that may help
alleviate concerns.

Section 6

I have several thoughts about the CBOR encoding, some of which I
mentioned in some previous emails.  (I also don't have much experience
with CBOR encoding, so I probably have some things wrong, too...)

It seems that CBOR major type 0 also encodes some width information for
integers.  Do we want to require that the CBOR encoding always uses the
width that matches the types in the YANG module, or do we permit a
smaller encoding when the value in question fits?  (Presumably the
answer falls out naturally if we expect people to use off-the-shelf CBOR
libraries...)

We say that the initial set of key values is comprehension-required;
does that mean that any other future extensions are necessarily
comprehension-optional, and there can be no additional
comprehension-required keys?

It's probably appropriate to make a statement in the initial text here
about the port number and/or media type indicating that this is the
syntax used for the top-level object.

I already mentioned that the encoding of the integer form of the key
values takes a different number of bytes depending on the integer value,
so I think those keys are rearranged in the -26 (I reviewed the -25).

Section 7.1

   A key challenge to deploying DOTS is the provisioning of DOTS
   clients, including the distribution of keying material to DOTS
   clients to enable the required mutual authentication of DOTS agents.
   EST defines a method of certificate enrollment by which domains

I think we need a reference for EST.

   o  TLS False Start [RFC7918] which reduces round-trips by allowing
      the TLS second flight of messages (ChangeCipherSpec) to also
      contain the DOTS signal.
[...]
   o  TCP Fast Open [RFC7413] can reduce the number of round-trips to
      convey DOTS signal channel message.

These are in something of a specification limbo, as they both appear to
only be formally defined for use with TLS, but TLS False Start seems to
have a straightforward extension to DTLS.  It may be worth tweaking the
text a little to acknowledge the situation here.

Section 7.2

The TLS 1.3 handshake with 0-RTT diagram needs to be
revisited/refreshed, as RFC 8446 does not look like that.  Additionally,
the usage of PSK as well as a certificate is not defined until
draft-housley-tls-tls13-cert-with-extern-psk is published.
I also note that in the diagram as presented, the client is not yet
known to be authenticated when the server sends its initial (0.5-RTT)
DOTS signal message.

Section 7.3

This whole section seems to only be relevant for UDP usage, so probably
the "If UDP is used" clause can be dropped and an introductory statement
added earlier on.

                              Path MTU MUST be greater than or equal to
   [CoAP message size + DTLS overhead of 13 octets + authentication
   overhead of the negotiated DTLS cipher suite + block padding]
   (Section 4.1.1.1 of [RFC6347]).  If the request size exceeds the path
   MTU then the DOTS client MUST split the DOTS signal into separate
   messages, for example the list of addresses in the 'target-prefix'
   parameter could be split into multiple lists and each list conveyed
   in a new PUT request.

(DTLS 1.3 will have a short header for some packets, that is less than
13 octets.)

Section 8

We've got some requirements in here about limiting behavior of
clients/servers when talking to gateways; is knowing about the presence
of a gateway something that's required to happen out of band or is there
an in-band way to identify that the peer is a gateway?

   messages from an authorized DOTS gateway, thereby creating a two-link
   chain of transitive authentication between the DOTS client and the
   DOTS server.

This seems to ignore the possibility of setups that include both
client-domain and server-domain gateways.

                 DOTS client certificate validation MUST be performed as
   per [RFC5280] and the DOTS client certificate MUST conform to the
   [RFC5280] certificate profile.  [...]

This seems to duplicate a requirement already stated in Section 7.1;
it's probably best to only have normative language in one location, even
if we need to mention the topic in multiple locations.
Similarly for the mutual authentication requirement, which we duplicate
in the second and fourth paragraphs of this section.

If we don't want to use example.com vs. example.net as sample domains,
we can also use whateverwewant.example, per RFC 6761.

Section 9

We should mention the media-type allocation in the top-level section.

"mappings to CBOR" feels confusing to me, since it leaves empty what we
are mapping from.  Perhaps just talking about a registry of "CBOR map
keys" would be better, both here and in the Section 9.3 intro.

Section 9.3

I suggest being very explicit about whether new requests for
registration should be directed to the mailing list or to IANA, as we've
had some confusion about this elsewhere.

The criteria used by the experts also just lists things they should
consider, but does not provide full clarity on which answer to the
question is more likely to be approved.  (And yes, I know that this text
is largely copied from already published RFCs, but we can still do
better.)

Section 9.3.1

If we want the value 0 to be reserved we need to say so.
Do we want to say anything about the usage of negative integers as map
keys?

I suggest not mentioning the postal address, given the recent (e.g.)
GDPR requirements.

Section 9.3.2

It may be worth mentioning Table 4 here as well.

Section 9.5.1

We need to specify which range of values we are asking for an allocation
from.

Section 9.6.1

As above, specify what range we're asking about.

I expect the current text to get some IESG (or directorate) feedback
that the Data Item and Semantics descriptions are repetitive and banal.

Section 9.7

IIUC, IANA is going to ask if we want this module to be "maintained by
IANA", so it would be good to have an answer ready even if we don't put
it in the document text.

   Rate-limiting DOTS requests, including those with new 'cuid' values,
   from the same DOTS client defends against DoS attacks that would

With respect to "new" 'cuid' values, is the server required to remember
which ones it has seen in perpetuity, or can it time them out
eventually?

Section 10

The security considerations seem to be taking a narrow focus on the
requirements for and consequences of specific bits on the wire in the
signal channel protocol.  I think it's appropriate to also include some
high-level thoughts about the functional behavior of the protocol,
allowing to signal that an attack is underway and trigger mitigation,
increasing the availability of services, etc., and the risks that are
posed by the protocol failing to work properly, whether that means
letting attack traffic through or improperly blocking legitimate
traffic.

Section 13.1

I think the IANA registries should be listed as Informational and not
Normative references.

Section 13.2

Pending resolution of the question about using draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor
rules or RFC7951+RFC7049, the draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor reference may
need to be Normative.

Given that "URI" is a well-known abbreviation, we may be able to get
away with not citing RFC 3986.  On the other hand, it's not causing any
harm to leave it in...

RFC 4632 needs to be Normative, since we need to know CIDR to
encode/decode target-prefixes.

Similarly, I think that RFCs 6234, 7413, 7589, 7918, 7924, and 7951
should also be Normative.


-Ben


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Hi Ben,=20

Thank you for the detailed review.

Please see inline a first set of replies.=20

Cheers,
Med

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De=A0: Benjamin Kaduk [mailto:kaduk@mit.edu]
> Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 16 janvier 2019 01:14
> =C0=A0: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org
> Cc=A0: dots@ietf.org
> Objet=A0: AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25
>=20
> AD review of -25.  (Note that -26 is out already, but to preserve my
> sanity I am still using the section numbers from the -25.  I took a
> quick look at the diff, and tried to remove comments that are no longer
> applicable, but probably missed some.
>=20
> This review is pretty long, but I think the document is actually in
> pretty good shape -- the length of review comments is just a normal
> frequency of rough edges multiplied by a long document.
>=20
> I will make a github pull request with some changes that I think are
> just editorial (but feel free to bring them up as discussion items if
> you are not sure that they are editorial, disagree with the changes,
> etc.)
>=20
> We should probably introduce (or avoid) the concept of "peace-time"
> (sometimes spelled without the hyphen) and perhaps the corresponding
> attack situation before using it.
>=20

[Med] We do have two occurrences in the document. I fixed these two.=20

> Section 1
>=20
> I wasn't sure whether the RFC 4987 reference was supposed to be for what
> an ACK-flood is or the fact that it is CPU-exhausting or something else.
> (Searching for those terms in its text did not help me come to a
> conclusion.)
>=20

[Med] RFC 4987 is a pointer to back that SYN flood is memory exhausting. I =
move the citation right after SYN-flood.=20


> We also talk about "DOTS servers" and "DOTS agents" in Section 1, before
> we've defined the terminology.  But these two are sufficiently
> self-explanatory that it may be fine to leave them as-is.
>=20

[Med] You are right. I don't think a change is needed.=20


>                                                  This protocol enables
>    cooperation between DOTS agents to permit a highly-automated network
>    defense that is robust, reliable, and secure.
>=20
> We should explain somewhere what we mean by "secure".  (I guess, that
> the signal and data channels are integrity- and
> confidentiality-protected, and that changes in mitigation status are not
> made unless properly authorized.)
>=20

[Med] By secure, we meant the set of features called in Section 2.4 of draf=
t-ietf-dots-requirements. We can add a pointer to that section if this help=
s.=20

> Section 3
>=20
>             DOTS clients MAY alternatively support means to dynamically
>    discover the ports used by their DOTS servers.  [...]
>=20
> If we have some examples in mind of dynamic discovery protocols, it
> would be appropriate to provide informative references here.
>=20

[Med] OK. I added an informative reference to draft-boucadair-dots-discover=
y.=20

> We should also have an informative reference for "Happy Eyeballs" (e.g.,
> RFC 8305).
>=20

[Med] That text points to the section defining HE:

A Happy Eyeballs procedure for DOTS signal channel is
   specified in Section 4.3.

8305 is cited in section 4.3:

   To overcome these connection setup problems, the DOTS client attempts
   to connect to its DOTS server(s) using both IPv6 and IPv4, and tries
   both DTLS over UDP and TLS over TCP in a manner similar to the Happy
   Eyeballs mechanism [RFC8305].

This is sufficient, IMO. =20

>    From that standpoint, this document specifies a YANG module for
>    representing DOTS mitigation scopes, DOTS signal channel session
>    [...]
>=20
> Which standpoint?

[Med] that is "use the same data models...".=20

I deleted the "From that standpoint," because this may not be clear.=20

>=20
>    Representing these data as CBOR data is assumed to follow the rules
>    in [I-D.ietf-core-yang-cbor] or those in [RFC7951] combined with
>    JSON/CBOR conversion rules in [RFC7049].  All parameters in the
>    payload of the DOTS signal channel are mapped to CBOR types as
>    specified in Section 6.
>=20
> How do I know which set of rules is in use?=20

[Med] This s not important from a DOTS interoperability standpoint. What is=
 important is the mapping table in Section 6 (and mapping entries that will=
 defined in future documents).=20

 Are the two sets of rules
> equivalent and interoperable?
>=20
>    DOTS agents MUST support GET, PUT, and DELETE CoAP methods.  [...]
>=20
> As written, this applies to all agents (clients, servers, and proxies).
> Presumably this is intended,

[Med] Yes.=20

 but I just wante to double-check --
> sometimes it's okay to place weaker requirements on clients.
>=20
>    In deployments where one or more translators (e.g., Traditional NAT
>    [RFC3022], CGN [RFC6888], NAT64 [RFC6146], NPTv6 [RFC6296]) are
>    enabled between the client's network and the DOTS server, DOTS signal
>    channel messages forwarded to a DOTS server MUST NOT include internal
>    IP addresses/prefixes and/or port numbers; external addresses/
>    prefixes and/or port numbers as assigned by the translator MUST be
>=20
> Do we want to give any examples of signal channel messages that might
> include internal addresses/prefixes?

[Med] I'd avoid citing a message which is not defined yet at this stage of =
the document.=20

>=20
>    Such procedure is needed to avoid experiencing long connection
>    delays.  For example, if an IPv4 path to reach a DOTS server is
>    found, but the DOTS server's IPv6 path is not working, a dual-stack
>    DOTS client may experience a significant connection delay compared to
>    an IPv4-only DOTS client.  [...]
>=20
> There seems a bit of a mismatch between "found" and "not working".  If
> the point is supposed to be that the client is going to try both IPv4
> and IPv6 but the v6 path has issues and it would take the client's
> algorithm some extra time to choose to fall back to v4, then maybe "iv
> an IPv4 path to a DOTS server is functional and there is also an
> apparently present but non-functional IPv6 path to the same server"?

[Med] You got it. I changed the text to:=20

"if an IPv4 path to reach a DOTS server is functional, but the DOTS server'=
s IPv6 path is non-functional,"

>=20
>                                   These connection attempts are
>    performed by the DOTS client when it initializes.  The results of the
>    Happy Eyeballs procedure are used by the DOTS client for sending its
>    subsequent messages to the DOTS server.
>=20
> I see this is scoped to "when the client initializes", so I don't know
> whether it adds more or not to end with "for the duration of the DOTS
> session" or some similar scoping for the caching of the happy eyeballs
> results.

[Med] The connection attempts are performed each time the client has to sel=
ect among a list of v4, v6 (tls, dtls). This is particularly true when the =
client initiates, but this may also be true each time the client has to sel=
ect among v4, v6, DTLS, TLS (e.g., the client attaches to a new network).=20

I updated the text to:=20

"These connection attempts are performed by the DOTS client when it initial=
izes, or in general when it has to select an address family and transport t=
o contact its DOTS server."

>=20
>    client because there is no long delay before using IPv4 and TCP.  The
>    DOTS client repeats the mechanism to discover whether DOTS signal
>    channel messages with DTLS over UDP becomes available from the DOTS
>    server, so the DOTS client can migrate the DOTS signal channel from
>=20
> What would cause UDP to "become available"?

[Med] In this example, this is assumed to be IPv6 path (with no middlebox) =
available again.=20

In general, this can be due to a path change, network configuration change,=
 middlebox configuration change, IPv6 become functional, etc.=20

  Would this be a case like
> if there's a stateful NAT or where we need to actively apply some sort
> of NAT traversal?  If so, do we want to list it as an example?  (If it's
> a complicated scenario, it may not be worth listing an example, of
> course.)

[Med] The text already says the following:=20

"it is assumed that the IPv6 path is broken and UDP traffic is dropped by a=
 middlebox"

I do think this is sufficient.=20

>=20
> I'm not sure if we want to add some annotations to Figure 4 that (e.g.)
> the initial DTLS attempts do not need to be strictly ordered in the
> order presented, or to indicate which lines are retries.

[Med] The text explaining that figure mentions the following: "...two TCP S=
YNs and two DTLS ClientHello messages at the same time over IPv6 and IPv4."

Adding annotation would be redundant, IMO.

[SNIP]


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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (2nd Part)
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Re-,

Please see inline.=20

Cheers,
Med

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De=A0: Benjamin Kaduk [mailto:kaduk@mit.edu]
> Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 16 janvier 2019 01:14
> =C0=A0: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org
> Cc=A0: dots@ietf.org
> Objet=A0: AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25
>=20
>=20
> Section 4.4
>=20
>    GET:    DOTS clients may use the GET method to subscribe to DOTS
>            server status messages, or to retrieve the list of its
>            mitigations maintained by a DOTS server (Section 4.4.2).
>=20
> I'm not really a canonical HTTP expert, but I suspect that using GET to
> "subscribe" will raise some eyebrows at later stages of review.=20

[Med] We are following RFC7641. I would be surprised if this is an issue.=20

 Maybe
> we should just leave it as-is and wait for such review to arrive,
> though, rather than trying to do something preemptively.

[Med] Yes.=20

>=20
> I don't know if this is the proper section to talk about it, but we
> should probably have some text justifying the use of application-layer
> acknowledgment as opposed to just using Confirmable CoAP messages.

[Med] I'm not sure to understand this one. Which "application-layer acknowl=
edgment" are you referring to?

>=20
> Section 4.4.1
>=20
> If Figure 5 is going to use actual/example values for cuid and mid, then
> I'd suggest also using actual/example values for the JSON fields
> (instead of "integer" and "string" and such).

[Med] I split the figure into two so that we don't have this problem.=20

>=20
>    cuid:  Stands for Client Unique Identifier.  A globally unique
>       identifier that is meant to prevent collisions among DOTS clients,
>       especially those from the same domain.  It MUST be generated by
>       DOTS clients.
>=20
> In order to get global uniqueness we either need sufficient randomness
> or a hierarchical allocation strategy.  Since we recommend a strategy
> that involves hashing the (public) client certificate, we may also want
> to note that this value does not need to be unguessable.  If a random
> allocation is possible, I suggest giving guidance on how many random
> bits must be used to sufficiently ensure global uniqueness (128 might be
> enough).

[Med] An attack vector that can be achieved if the cuid is guessable is if =
a misbehaving client from within the client's domain succeeds to be granted=
 access by the server and then uses the cuid of another client of the domai=
n to delete active mitigation/etc.

For this attack vector to happen, the misbehaving client needs to pass secu=
rity validation checks by the server. Therefore, I'm not sure if it is wort=
h to add an allocation reco given this perquisite.=20

Thoughts?

>=20
>                           The output of the cryptographic hash algorithm
>       is truncated to 16 bytes; truncation is done by stripping off the
>       final 16 bytes.  The truncated output is base64url encoded.
>=20
> side note: Truncation to 128 bits reduces the collision resistance to
> 64-bit strength, though this is probably acceptable in this use case.
>=20
>       DOTS servers MUST return 4.09 (Conflict) error code to a DOTS peer
>       to notify that the 'cuid' is already in-use by another DOTS
>       client.  Upon receipt of that error code, a new 'cuid' MUST be
>       generated by the DOTS peer.
>=20
> Is there any way in which this situation could arise during some sort of
> migration scenario?

[Med] This can be for example a client which does not follow the "SHOULD" f=
or creating the cuid.=20

>=20
>       Client-domain DOTS gateways MUST handle 'cuid' collision directly
>       and it is RECOMMENDED that 'cuid' collision is handled directly by
>       server-domain DOTS gateways.
>=20
> Is a gateway supposed to know if it is "client-side" or "server-side" by
> explicit configuration or some more automatic method?

[Med] This can be done by an explicit configuration.=20

>=20
>    'cuid' and 'mid' MUST NOT appear in the PUT request message body.
>=20
> Do we need to say this given that there's no obvious structure in which
> to put them?  (That is, is this just a reminder to implementors of a
> previous version of the draft versus guidance to new implementations?)

[Med] We used to have those in the message body in previous versions of the=
 spec/implementations. Furthermore, there are cases where "mid" is allowed =
to be included in the message body (e.g., PUT response). We included this n=
ote for implementers because of some behaviors observed during past interop=
s.

>=20
>       The prefix list MUST NOT include broadcast, loopback, or multicast
>       addresses.  These addresses are considered as invalid values.  In
>=20
> Does "invalid" mean that the particular address gets ignored or that the
> entire request is rejected?

[Med] The expected behavior is covered by this text:=20

" ... or contains invalid or unknown parameters, the DOTS server MUST reply=
 with 4.00 (Bad Request)."=20

>=20
>    target-fqdn:   A list of Fully Qualified Domain Names (FQDNs)
>       identifying resources under attack.  An FQDN is the full name of a
>       resource, rather than just its hostname.  For example, "venera" is
>       a hostname, and "venera.isi.edu" is an FQDN [RFC1983].
>=20
> I would suggest referring to draft-ietf-dnsop-terminology-bis rather
> than trying to reproduce a definition of FQDN.
>=20

[Med] I added an informative reference to draft-ietf-dnsop-terminology-bis.
=20
> We also may want to note that the DNS view can change depending on the
> vantage point used to make the observation.

[Med] Not sure what to do with this one given that the text says:=20

"How a name is passed to an underlying name resolution library is implement=
ation- and deployment-specific."

>=20
> On page 18 we say that server-domain DOTS gateways "MUST supply [...]
> 'cdid'", but the previous paragraph says that there SHOULD be a
> configuration option for whether to insert 'cdid' on such systems.  The
> two requirements are in conflict; which was intended?  (I assume the
> MUST -- why would it be desired to not have the information available?)

[Med] This text is about gateways that are instructed to insert the cdid pa=
rameter. gateways facing a client's domain are in this case.=20

I updated the text with "server-domain DOTS gateways instructed to insert t=
he 'cdid' parameter MUST supply.."

>=20
> The same paragraph also says that the 'cdid' is "likely to be the same
> as" the 'cuid', though in addition to the listed reasons the client only
> has a SHOULD requirement to follow this procedure for generating 'cuid';
> it may be worth noting the client's leeway here as well.

[Med] Yes, this is why we have "likely" in the text.=20

>=20
>       If a DOTS client is provisioned, for example, with distinct
>       certificates as a function of the peer server-domain DOTS gateway,
>       distinct 'cdid' values may be supplied by a server-domain DOTS
>       gateway.  The ultimate DOTS server MUST treat those 'cdid' values
>       as equivalent.
>=20
> Is this paragraph trying to say that a client might supply different
> certs to different gateways in the same domain

[Med] Yes.=20

 (e.g., if one such
> gateway does not support ecdsa certs)?  It was pretty confusing on the
> first read, in particular how the ultimate DOTS server would know that
> the different 'cdid' values actually correspond to the same client
> [domain].

[Med] This is supposed to be provisioned on the server. This is deployment-=
specific; hence no mention in the draft.=20

>=20
>       DOTS servers MUST ignore 'cdid' attributes that are directly
>       supplied by source DOTS clients or client-domain DOTS gateways.
>       This implies that first server-domain DOTS gateways MUST strip
>       'cdid' attributes supplied by DOTS clients.  DOTS servers SHOULD
>       support a configuration parameter to identify DOTS gateways that
>       are trusted to supply 'cdid' attributes.
>=20
> Is there any mechanism (e.g., autodetection) other than this by which
> servers/proxies can learn about the topology information needed to
> fulfil these requirements?

[Med] I'm not aware of such mechanism.=20

>=20
>    Because of the complexity to handle partial failure cases, this
>    specification does not allow for including multiple mitigation
>    requests in the same PUT request.  Concretely, a DOTS client MUST NOT
>    include multiple 'scope' parameters in the same PUT request.
>=20
> "multiple 'scope' parameters" reads like a CBOR object with duplicate
> keys; is this intended to refer to a multi-valued array?

[Med] What is intended is that the scope list should include only one entry=
.=20

I can change to "multiple 'scope' clauses"

>=20
>    The DOTS server couples the DOTS signal and data channel sessions
>    using the DOTS client identity and optionally the 'cdid' parameter
>=20
> This requires the client to use the same certificate to authenticate the
> signal and data channels to a given server (even when a gateway is in
> use).  Above, we discussed cases where a client might have multiple
> certificates available.

[Med] Actually, the text above applies also if distinct certificates are us=
ed. Equivalent "client identity" are supposed to be known to the server by =
an out of band means. In all cases, the identity (same or equivalent) is us=
ed to couple the sessions.=20

  Where do we specify the requirement to use the
> same certificate for signal and data channels?

[Med] We don't have such requirement in existing DOTS documents.=20

>=20
>                                                DOTS agents can safely
>    ignore Vendor-Specific parameters they don't understand.
>=20
> This is not a very useful statemnet if the agent must know that a
> parameter is vendor-specific in order to safely ignore it.

[Med] The agent relies on the cbor key value to determine that a parameter =
can be safely ignored or not (comprehension-required). A range of keys is r=
eserved for comprehension-optional. An agent checks the range to which belo=
ng a parameter, and then behaves accordingly.=20

>=20
>    If the DOTS server does not find the 'mid' parameter value conveyed
>    in the PUT request in its configuration data, it MAY accept the
>    mitigation request by sending back a 2.01 (Created) response to the
>    DOTS client; the DOTS server will consequently try to mitigate the
>    attack.
>=20
>    If the DOTS server finds the 'mid' parameter value conveyed in the
>    PUT request in its configuration data bound to that DOTS client, it
>    MAY update the mitigation request, and a 2.04 (Changed) response is
>    returned to indicate a successful update of the mitigation request.
>=20
> There are two "MAY"s spread across these two paragraphs; do we want to
> say anything about in what cases the server might want to have different
> behavior (i.e., ignore the MAY)?
>=20

[Med] For the first MAY, a typical example is when a rate limit is enforced=
:

   Rate-limiting DOTS requests, including those with new 'cuid' values,
   from the same DOTS client defends against DoS attacks that would
   result in varying the 'cuid' to exhaust DOTS server resources.  Rate-
   limit policies SHOULD be enforced on DOTS gateways (if deployed) and
   DOTS servers

For the second MAY, the server may have more visibility on the attack and t=
hen may decide to update accordingly.

I don't know if it is worth to add examples. Any preference? =20


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From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>
To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "Benjamin Kaduk" <kaduk@mit.edu>, "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dots/ZedfY66ZCrTNDWUNSDkf1zTHO04>
Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (1st Part)
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (3rd Part)
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Re-,

Please see inline.=20

Cheers,=09
Med

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De=A0: Benjamin Kaduk [mailto:kaduk@mit.edu]
> Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 16 janvier 2019 01:14
> =C0=A0: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org
> Cc=A0: dots@ietf.org
> Objet=A0: AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25
>=20
>=20
>                                                   To avoid maintaining a
>    long list of overlapping mitigation requests (i.e., requests with the
>    same 'trigger-mitigation' type and overlapping scopes) from a DOTS
>    client and avoid error-prone provisioning of mitigation requests from
>    a DOTS client, the overlapped lower numeric 'mid' MUST be
>    automatically deleted and no longer available at the DOTS server.
>    For example, if the DOTS server receives a mitigation request which
>    overlaps with an existing mitigation with a higher numeric 'mid', the
>    DOTS server rejects the request by returning 4.09 (Conflict) to the
>    DOTS client.  [...]
>=20
> This seems to be internally inconsistent -- first we hear that the
> overlapped mitigation request with lower 'mid' MUST be deleted (BTW,
> note my rewording), but at the end we are hearing that a request to
> create an overlapping mitgiation must be rejected

[Med] It is rejected because it has a lower numeric 'mid'.=20

.  (A couple pages
> later we also say "can be achieved by sending a PUT request [...] that
> will override the existing one with overlapping mitigation scopes"

[Med] Yes, the new one will have a higher 'mid'.=20

,
> which suggests a resolution of the conflict.

[Med] I don't see any inconsistency. Please clarify if I missed your point.=
=20

>=20
>                  The response includes enough information for a DOTS
>    client to recognize the source of the conflict as described below:
>=20
>    conflict-information:  Indicates that a mitigation request is
>    [...]
>=20
> I'm not entirely sure what encoding to infer from just this description
> -- conflict-information/-cause/-scope are in the YANG model, but do we
> need to say that the response contains a CBOR representation of the
> subtree starting at conflict-information (or something like that), or is
> this implicitly specified elsewhere in the document?  For example,
> Figure 9 has an explicit JSON diagnostic notation for a message
> response.

[Med] This is covered by this text:=20

   Thhis document specifies a YANG module for
   representing DOTS mitigation scopes, DOTS signal channel session
   configuration data, and DOTS redirected signalling (Section 5).
   Representing these data as CBOR data is assumed to follow the rules
   in [I-D.ietf-core-yang-cbor] or those in [RFC7951] combined with
   JSON/CBOR conversion rules in [RFC7049].  All parameters in the
                                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   payload of the DOTS signal channel are mapped to CBOR types as
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   specified in Section 6.
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>=20
>       conflict-scope:  Indicates the conflict scope.  It may include a
>          list of IP addresses, a list of prefixes, a list of port
>          numbers, a list of target protocols, a list of FQDNs, a list of
>          URIs, a list of alias-names, or a 'mid'.
>=20
> This feels a little under-specified -- do we need to include exactly the
> conflicting entries?  Or would we just say something like "this
> conflicts with 'mid' 8; figure it out"?

[Med] This clause indicates the exact conflict scope. It may be for example=
:
- a conflict of IP addresses. Then, the target addresses in conflict are re=
turned.
- a conflict with another request, then the mid of that request is returned
- etc.

We can update the text as follows:=20

      conflict-scope:  Characterizes the exact conflict scope.  It may incl=
ude a
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^    =20
          list of IP addresses, a list of prefixes, a list of port
          numbers, a list of target protocols, a list of FQDNs, a list of
          URIs, a list of alias-names, or a 'mid'.


>=20
>          3:  CUID Collision.  This code is returned when a DOTS client
>              uses a 'cuid' that is already used by another DOTS client.
>              This code is an indication that the request has been
>              rejected and a new request with a new 'cuid' is to be re-
>              sent by the DOTS client.  Note that 'conflict-status',
>              'conflict-scope', and 'retry-timer' are not returned in the
>              error response.
>=20
> (Do we want "MUST NOT" 2119 language to prevent their inclusion or is
> the current descriptive language sufficient?)
>=20

[Med] OK.

>       conflict-scope:  Indicates the conflict scope.  It may include a
>          list of IP addresses, a list of prefixes, a list of port
>          numbers, a list of target protocols, a list of FQDNs, a list of
>          URIs, a list of alias-names, or references to conflicting ACLs.
>=20
> How do I reference an ACL?

[Med] By an acl-name. I updated the text to hint this:=20

"(by an 'acl-name', typically [I-D.ietf-dots-data-channel])"

>=20
>                           This can be achieved by sending a PUT request
>    with a new 'mid' value that will override the existing one with
>    overlapping mitigation scopes.
>=20
> Do we want to reiterate that the existing one will be deleted?

[Med] The text you quoted reminds that the new request will delete the exis=
ting one.=20

>=20
>    For a mitigation request to continue beyond the initial negotiated
>    lifetime, the DOTS client has to refresh the current mitigation
>    request by sending a new PUT request.  This PUT request MUST use the
>    same 'mid' value, and MUST repeat all the other parameters as sent in
>    the original mitigation request apart from a possible change to the
>    lifetime parameter value.
>=20
> If the server did not have a check that the other parameters match, what
> would happen?

[Med] A request may be for example inadvertently transitioned from pre-conf=
igured to immediate and vice versa. To avoid such issues, the spec mandates=
 the following:=20

* a client can adjust its mitigation scope by sending a new one that will o=
verride an existing one.=20
* a client can update an existing mitigation by echoing the same parameters=
 as those in the initial mitigation request.=20

But leave it to the server to decide how to handle the refresh:

   If the DOTS server finds the 'mid' parameter value conveyed in the
   PUT request in its configuration data bound to that DOTS client, it
   MAY update the mitigation request, and a 2.04 (Changed) response is
   returned to indicate a successful update of the mitigation request.

  (Do we need normative language that the server MUST
> verify the other parameters when the 'mid' matches?)
>=20
> Section 4.4.2
>=20
>                           If the representation of all the active
>    mitigation requests associated with the DOTS client does not fit
>    within a single datagram, the DOTS server MUST use the Block2 Option
>    with NUM =3D 0 in the GET response.  [...]
>=20
> I'm not very familiar with CoAP blockwise transfers; is this in conflict
> with some normal feature-negotiation scheme or is it okay to assume that
> the client will be able to handle this even if the client has not
> explictly indicated support?

[Med] RFC7959 indicates the following:=20

   A CoAP implementation that does not support these options generally
   is limited in the size of the representations that can be exchanged,
   see Section 4.6 of [RFC7252].  Even though the options are Critical,
   a server may decide to start using them in an unsolicited way in a
   response.  No effort was expended to provide a capability indication
   mechanism supporting that decision: since the block-wise transfer
   mechanisms are so fundamental to the use of CoAP for representations
   larger than about a kilobyte, there is an expectation that they are
   very widely implemented.

>=20
>       This is a mandatory attribute when an attack mitigation is
>       triggered.  Particularly, 'mitigation-start' is not returned for a
>       mitigation with 'status' code set to 8.
>=20
> Is this better as "triggered" or as "active"?

[Med] Changed the text to "when an immediate attack mitigation is triggered=
".

>=20
> bps-dropped and pps-dropped "SHOULD be a five-minute average", but that
> does not seem quite well-defined.  Is it a rolling five-minute average
> over bins of one second, or a binned five-minute average for the last
> five-minute interval that ends on a multiple of '5', or something else?

[Med] What is meant in an average over 5-minute intervals. Updated the text=
 accordingly.=20

>=20
>    Upon receipt of a conflict notification message indicating that a
>    mitigation request is deactivated because of a conflict, a DOTS
>    client MUST NOT resend the same mitigation request before the expiry
>    of 'retry-timer'.  It is also recommended that DOTS clients support
>    means to alert administrators about mitigation conflicts.
>=20
> Do we need to say anything regarding the server behavior when a
> retransmit or similar was in flight already when the conflict
> notification was generated?  (That is, the server's enforcement of the
> MUST NOT may need to be restrained.)

[Med] The MUST NOT is intended to avoid overloading the server, because:=20

         "Any retransmission of the same
         mitigation request before the expiry of this timer is likely to
         be rejected by the DOTS server for the same reasons."
 =20
The text leave it to the server to decide which action to take when MUST NO=
T is not followed by a client. The server may decide the silently ignore th=
ose, etc.=20

We can add some text if needed.=20

>=20
>    Alternatively, the DOTS client can explicitly deregister itself by
>    issuing a GET request that has the Token field set to the token of
>    the observation to be cancelled and includes an Observe Option with
>    the value set to '1' (deregister).
>=20
> This seems like the more "polite" behavior (as opposed to just
> "forgetting" -- why is the polite behavior not the default behavior?

[Med] Done in my local copy.=20

>=20
> Does the GET in  Figure 13 need to have a ".well-known" and other path
> components?
>=20

[Med] Don't think so. Actually, we are mimicking figure 2 in RFC7641.


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From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>
To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "Benjamin Kaduk" <kaduk@mit.edu>, "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (2nd Part)
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From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>
To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "Benjamin Kaduk" <kaduk@mit.edu>, "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (3rd Part)
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From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>
To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "Benjamin Kaduk" <kaduk@mit.edu>, "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (3rd Part)
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (4th Part)
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Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (4th Part)
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Re-,

Please see inline.

Cheers,
Med

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De=A0: Benjamin Kaduk [mailto:kaduk@mit.edu]
> Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 16 janvier 2019 01:14
> =C0=A0: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org
> Cc=A0: dots@ietf.org
> Objet=A0: AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25
>=20
>=20
> Section 4.4.3
>=20
> I'm not questioning the decision, but I am a bit curious how we ended up
> with a boolean "attack-status" parameter and no quantitative
> measurements.
>=20

[Med] This is not a Boolean. The attack-status reflects the status as obser=
ved by the client. Actually, we restricted the information to the minimum i=
nformation that can be reported by the client without leaking privacy/local=
 information that may be subject to local policies at the client domain.=20

>    The DOTS server indicates the result of processing a PUT request
>    using CoAP response codes.  The response code 2.04 (Changed) is
>    returned if the DOTS server has accepted the mitigation efficacy
>    update.  The error response code 5.03 (Service Unavailable) is
>    returned if the DOTS server has erred or is incapable of performing
>    the mitigation.
>=20
> What (if anythin) should the client do in response?  Should the client
> assume the server is dead and move to a different one?

[Med] 5.03 uses Max-Age option to indicate when to retry. This is discussed=
 in RFC7252. I can update the text if you think this is helpful to remind t=
his.=20

>=20
> Section 4.4.4
>=20
>    terminating period SHOULD be set by default to 120 seconds.  If the
>    client requests mitigation again before the initial active-but-
>    terminating period elapses, the DOTS server MAY exponentially
>    increase the active-but-terminating period up to a maximum of 300
>    seconds (5 minutes).
>=20
> Is the base of the exponent supposed to be 2 (i.e., a doubling of the
> delay)?  This should probably be made explicit.

[Med] Done. Thanks.

  Also, is the input to
> the doubling the previous total delay, or the amount of delay remaining
> when the repeated request arrives?

[Med] The server sets active-but-terminating, then if it receives a request=
 before that timer expires, it doubles the active-but-terminating and so on=
. The server repeats this process at most for 5 minutes. =20

>=20
>    If a mitigation is triggered due to a signal channel loss, the DOTS
>    server relies upon normal triggers to stop that mitigation
>    (typically, receipt of a valid DELETE request, expiry of the
>    mitigation lifetime, or observation of traffic to the attack target).
>=20
> I think "observation of traffic" probably needs more explanation -- as
> written, it sounds like any packet arriving would be sufficient, which
> is probably not the intended behavior...

[Med] We meant "inspecting the traffic", but avoided to use the word becaus=
e this term is not well perceived. =20

I can update the text If you are OK with "inspecting".=20

>=20
> Section 4.5.1
>=20
> Does the "max-retransmit" value exclude the initial transmission?

[Med] Yes.

>=20
> I'm not sure whether there are any particularly interesting security
> considerations to mention about what happens when ack-random-factor is
> insufficiently random; it seems like things would only get really bad if
> the value was constant across peers.
>=20

[Med] A brief discussion on this change's impact can be found in Section 4.=
8.1 of RFC7252.=20

> Section 4.5.2
>=20
>                                                  A DOTS client MUST NOT
>    transmit a "CoAP Ping" while waiting for the previous "CoAP Ping"
>    response from the same DOTS server.
>=20
> Is this intended to block retransmissions of the same CoAP Ping?

[Med] This is intended to block retransmission before the retransmission ti=
meout expires. =20


>=20
>    sid:  Session Identifier is an identifier for the DOTS signal channel
>       session configuration data represented as an integer.  This
>       identifier MUST be generated by DOTS clients.  'sid' values MUST
>       increase monotonically.
>=20
> What event triggers the increase?

[Med] Send a PUT request for configuration purpose.  =20

>=20
> Section 4.5.3
>=20
>                                        When a DDoS attack is active,
>    refresh requests MUST NOT be sent by DOTS clients and the DOTS server
>    MUST NOT terminate the (D)TLS session after the expiry of the value
>    returned in Max-Age Option.
>=20
> It seems like there's a bit of a race condition with attacks and refresh
> requests coming in in parallel.
>=20

[Med] Is there any change that you see to the text?=20

> Section  4.6
>=20
>    The DOTS server can return the error response code 5.03 in response
>    to a request from the DOTS client or convey the error response code
>    5.03 in a unidirectional notification response from the DOTS server.
>=20
> Just to check my understanding, this unidirectional notification would
> only happen if there was a previous Observe to establish the channel?

[Med] Yes.

>=20
> The "alt-server-record" description here is pretty vague on the string
> formatting used, v4 vs. v6, etc.;

[Med] "IP addresses" is used on purpose to refer to both IPv4 and IPv6 addr=
esses.

 I guess that the actual "type
> inet:ip-address" in the YANG module is probably specific enough, though.
>=20

[Med] Yes, indeed.


> Section 4.7
>=20
> The first two paragraphs seem to have high overlap and would probably
> benefit from at least being joined together if not also trimmed down a
> bit.

[Med] Joined together in the my local copy with the 2nd para which starts n=
ow with "Concretely, ".

>=20
>    In case of a massive DDoS attack that saturates the incoming link(s)
>    to the DOTS client, all traffic from the DOTS server to the DOTS
>    client will likely be dropped, although the DOTS server receives
>    heartbeat requests in addition to DOTS messages sent by the DOTS
>    client.  In this scenario, the DOTS agents MUST behave differently to
>    handle message transmission and DOTS session liveliness during link
>    saturation:
>=20
> Do we need to say how the agents independently detect the
> link-saturation situation?
>=20

[Med] When the agents are aware that an attack is ongoing, they will infer =
links are likely to be saturated.

> Section 5.1
>=20
> It looks like the tree diagram and the module differ about the
> "mandatory false" nature of some nodes, e.g., upper-port.  Perhaps the
> tree diagram should be regenerated?
>=20

[Med] Will double check.

> Section 5.2
>=20
> I mostly expect some heartburn from various folks about overriding
> protocol number 0's interpretation as the IPv6 hop-by-hop option to mean
> "all protocols", though it will probably be fine in practice.  I am
> including a suggested rewording in my editorial changes that may help
> alleviate concerns.

[Med] Good catch. We can fix this by updating the text to:

"If 'target-protocol' is not specified, then the request applies to any pro=
tocol."

Will also check your proposal. Thanks.

>=20
> Section 6
>=20
> I have several thoughts about the CBOR encoding, some of which I
> mentioned in some previous emails.  (I also don't have much experience
> with CBOR encoding, so I probably have some things wrong, too...)
>=20
> It seems that CBOR major type 0 also encodes some width information for
> integers.  Do we want to require that the CBOR encoding always uses the
> width that matches the types in the YANG module, or do we permit a
> smaller encoding when the value in question fits?  (Presumably the
> answer falls out naturally if we expect people to use off-the-shelf CBOR
> libraries...)
>=20
> We say that the initial set of key values is comprehension-required;
> does that mean that any other future extensions are necessarily
> comprehension-optional, and there can be no additional
> comprehension-required keys?

[Med] Future extensions can be either comprehension-required or comprehensi=
on-optional. This will depend on each use case.=20

>=20
> It's probably appropriate to make a statement in the initial text here
> about the port number and/or media type indicating that this is the
> syntax used for the top-level object.
>=20
> I already mentioned that the encoding of the integer form of the key
> values takes a different number of bytes depending on the integer value,
> so I think those keys are rearranged in the -26 (I reviewed the -25).

[Med] I guess Tiru has already addressed that comment.=20

>=20
> Section 7.1
>=20
>    A key challenge to deploying DOTS is the provisioning of DOTS
>    clients, including the distribution of keying material to DOTS
>    clients to enable the required mutual authentication of DOTS agents.
>    EST defines a method of certificate enrollment by which domains
>=20
> I think we need a reference for EST.

[Med] Done. Thanks.

>=20
>    o  TLS False Start [RFC7918] which reduces round-trips by allowing
>       the TLS second flight of messages (ChangeCipherSpec) to also
>       contain the DOTS signal.
> [...]
>    o  TCP Fast Open [RFC7413] can reduce the number of round-trips to
>       convey DOTS signal channel message.
>=20
> These are in something of a specification limbo, as they both appear to
> only be formally defined for use with TLS, but TLS False Start seems to
> have a straightforward extension to DTLS.  It may be worth tweaking the
> text a little to acknowledge the situation here.

[Med] Can you please indicate which tweaking do you have in mind?=20

TFO allows to send data in the SYN without waiting for the completion of th=
e 3WHS. Obviously, such delay is specific to TCP.=20
=20


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From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@mcafee.com>
CC: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org>, "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dots/roKoVQQYut3buxmKXaqU56GJzaI>
Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (1st Part)
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Trying to get both Tiru and Med's comments, inline...

On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 11:10:37AM +0000, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote:
> Hi Med,
> 
> Please see inline
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Dots <dots-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of
> > mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2019 1:30 PM
> > To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>; draft-ietf-dots-signal-
> > channel@ietf.org
> > Cc: dots@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (1st Part)
> > 
> > This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or
> > open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is
> > safe.
> > 
> > Hi Ben,
> > 
> > Thank you for the detailed review.
> > 
> > Please see inline a first set of replies.
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > Med
> > 
> > > -----Message d'origine-----
> > > De : Benjamin Kaduk [mailto:kaduk@mit.edu] Envoyé : mercredi 16
> > > janvier 2019 01:14 À : draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org
> > > Cc : dots@ietf.org
> > > Objet : AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25
> > >
> > > AD review of -25.  (Note that -26 is out already, but to preserve my
> > > sanity I am still using the section numbers from the -25.  I took a
> > > quick look at the diff, and tried to remove comments that are no
> > > longer applicable, but probably missed some.
> > >
> > > This review is pretty long, but I think the document is actually in
> > > pretty good shape -- the length of review comments is just a normal
> > > frequency of rough edges multiplied by a long document.
> > >
> > > I will make a github pull request with some changes that I think are
> > > just editorial (but feel free to bring them up as discussion items if
> > > you are not sure that they are editorial, disagree with the changes,
> > > etc.)
> > >
> > > We should probably introduce (or avoid) the concept of "peace-time"
> > > (sometimes spelled without the hyphen) and perhaps the corresponding
> > > attack situation before using it.
> > >
> > 
> > [Med] We do have two occurrences in the document. I fixed these two.

Thanks.  I guess my more meta-point was whether we expect the audience to
be familiar with the usage of "peacetime" for "absence of a DoS attack" --
I personally found it slightly jarring, but I'm also not exactly the target
audience.

> > > Section 1
> > >
> > > I wasn't sure whether the RFC 4987 reference was supposed to be for
> > > what an ACK-flood is or the fact that it is CPU-exhausting or something else.
> > > (Searching for those terms in its text did not help me come to a
> > > conclusion.)
> > >
> > 
> > [Med] RFC 4987 is a pointer to back that SYN flood is memory exhausting. I
> > move the citation right after SYN-flood.

Ah, that makes perfect sense; thanks.

> > 
> > > We also talk about "DOTS servers" and "DOTS agents" in Section 1,
> > > before we've defined the terminology.  But these two are sufficiently
> > > self-explanatory that it may be fine to leave them as-is.
> > >
> > 
> > [Med] You are right. I don't think a change is needed.
> > 
> > 
> > >                                                  This protocol enables
> > >    cooperation between DOTS agents to permit a highly-automated network
> > >    defense that is robust, reliable, and secure.
> > >
> > > We should explain somewhere what we mean by "secure".  (I guess, that
> > > the signal and data channels are integrity- and
> > > confidentiality-protected, and that changes in mitigation status are
> > > not made unless properly authorized.)
> > >
> > 
> > [Med] By secure, we meant the set of features called in Section 2.4 of draft-
> > ietf-dots-requirements. We can add a pointer to that section if this helps.

It's probably worth doing.

> > > Section 3
> > >
> > >             DOTS clients MAY alternatively support means to dynamically
> > >    discover the ports used by their DOTS servers.  [...]
> > >
> > > If we have some examples in mind of dynamic discovery protocols, it
> > > would be appropriate to provide informative references here.
> > >
> > 
> > [Med] OK. I added an informative reference to draft-boucadair-dots-
> > discovery.
> > 
> > > We should also have an informative reference for "Happy Eyeballs"
> > > (e.g., RFC 8305).
> > >
> > 
> > [Med] That text points to the section defining HE:
> > 
> > A Happy Eyeballs procedure for DOTS signal channel is
> >    specified in Section 4.3.
> > 
> > 8305 is cited in section 4.3:
> > 
> >    To overcome these connection setup problems, the DOTS client attempts
> >    to connect to its DOTS server(s) using both IPv6 and IPv4, and tries
> >    both DTLS over UDP and TLS over TCP in a manner similar to the Happy
> >    Eyeballs mechanism [RFC8305].
> > 
> > This is sufficient, IMO.

So it is.  Sorry to have missed that before.

> > >    From that standpoint, this document specifies a YANG module for
> > >    representing DOTS mitigation scopes, DOTS signal channel session
> > >    [...]
> > >
> > > Which standpoint?
> > 
> > [Med] that is "use the same data models...".
> > 
> > I deleted the "From that standpoint," because this may not be clear.

Sounds good.

> > >
> > >    Representing these data as CBOR data is assumed to follow the rules
> > >    in [I-D.ietf-core-yang-cbor] or those in [RFC7951] combined with
> > >    JSON/CBOR conversion rules in [RFC7049].  All parameters in the
> > >    payload of the DOTS signal channel are mapped to CBOR types as
> > >    specified in Section 6.
> > >
> > > How do I know which set of rules is in use?
> > 
> > [Med] This s not important from a DOTS interoperability standpoint. What is
> > important is the mapping table in Section 6 (and mapping entries that will
> > defined in future documents).
> > 
> >  Are the two sets of rules
> > > equivalent and interoperable?

So the claim is that following either set of rules will result in the same
(well, equivalent) encoding, based on the relevant CBOR types?  If so, this
text could probably be reworded to just use declarative language instead of
"is assumed to", maybe something like "are encoded in CBOR; the procedures
in [] or [] will produce a valid encoding", though I don't have a great
concrete suggestion off the top of my head.

> > >    DOTS agents MUST support GET, PUT, and DELETE CoAP methods.  [...]
> > >
> > > As written, this applies to all agents (clients, servers, and proxies).
> > > Presumably this is intended,
> > 
> > [Med] Yes.
> > 
> >  but I just wante to double-check --
> > > sometimes it's okay to place weaker requirements on clients.
> > >
> > >    In deployments where one or more translators (e.g., Traditional NAT
> > >    [RFC3022], CGN [RFC6888], NAT64 [RFC6146], NPTv6 [RFC6296]) are
> > >    enabled between the client's network and the DOTS server, DOTS signal
> > >    channel messages forwarded to a DOTS server MUST NOT include
> > internal
> > >    IP addresses/prefixes and/or port numbers; external addresses/
> > >    prefixes and/or port numbers as assigned by the translator MUST be
> > >
> > > Do we want to give any examples of signal channel messages that might
> > > include internal addresses/prefixes?
> > 
> > [Med] I'd avoid citing a message which is not defined yet at this stage of the
> > document.

Okay.

> > >
> > >    Such procedure is needed to avoid experiencing long connection
> > >    delays.  For example, if an IPv4 path to reach a DOTS server is
> > >    found, but the DOTS server's IPv6 path is not working, a dual-stack
> > >    DOTS client may experience a significant connection delay compared to
> > >    an IPv4-only DOTS client.  [...]
> > >
> > > There seems a bit of a mismatch between "found" and "not working".  If
> > > the point is supposed to be that the client is going to try both IPv4
> > > and IPv6 but the v6 path has issues and it would take the client's
> > > algorithm some extra time to choose to fall back to v4, then maybe "iv
> > > an IPv4 path to a DOTS server is functional and there is also an
> > > apparently present but non-functional IPv6 path to the same server"?
> > 
> > [Med] You got it. I changed the text to:
> > 
> > "if an IPv4 path to reach a DOTS server is functional, but the DOTS server's
> > IPv6 path is non-functional,"
> > 
> > >
> > >                                   These connection attempts are
> > >    performed by the DOTS client when it initializes.  The results of the
> > >    Happy Eyeballs procedure are used by the DOTS client for sending its
> > >    subsequent messages to the DOTS server.
> > >
> > > I see this is scoped to "when the client initializes", so I don't know
> > > whether it adds more or not to end with "for the duration of the DOTS
> > > session" or some similar scoping for the caching of the happy eyeballs
> > > results.
> > 
> > [Med] The connection attempts are performed each time the client has to
> > select among a list of v4, v6 (tls, dtls). This is particularly true when the client
> > initiates, but this may also be true each time the client has to select among
> > v4, v6, DTLS, TLS (e.g., the client attaches to a new network).
> > 
> > I updated the text to:
> > 
> > "These connection attempts are performed by the DOTS client when it
> > initializes, or in general when it has to select an address family and transport
> > to contact its DOTS server."
> 
> Happy eyeballs mandates caching the results, see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6555#section-4 (to avoid thrashing the network).
> We may want to update the above line accordingly. 

We probably do, perhaps by qualifying the decision as being one made when
conditions have changed in some way since the last decision (and some
amount of timeout could be considered a "change").

> 
> > 
> > >
> > >    client because there is no long delay before using IPv4 and TCP.  The
> > >    DOTS client repeats the mechanism to discover whether DOTS signal
> > >    channel messages with DTLS over UDP becomes available from the DOTS
> > >    server, so the DOTS client can migrate the DOTS signal channel from
> > >
> > > What would cause UDP to "become available"?
> > 
> > [Med] In this example, this is assumed to be IPv6 path (with no middlebox)
> > available again.
> > 
> > In general, this can be due to a path change, network configuration change,
> > middlebox configuration change, IPv6 become functional, etc.

I think I would have been less confused if we said "periodically repeats".

> >   Would this be a case like
> > > if there's a stateful NAT or where we need to actively apply some sort
> > > of NAT traversal?  If so, do we want to list it as an example?  (If
> > > it's a complicated scenario, it may not be worth listing an example,
> > > of
> > > course.)
> > 
> > [Med] The text already says the following:
> > 
> > "it is assumed that the IPv6 path is broken and UDP traffic is dropped by a
> > middlebox"
> > 
> > I do think this is sufficient.

It's probably fine, yes.  I was just wondering if there would be scenarios
where the situation would be improved if a DOTS agent applied active
NAT-busting; if so, we would then need to decide whether the benefits were
large enough and the situation common enough to merit a mention.  (It
sounds like we think it is not common enough to mention, which is fine.)

> > >
> > > I'm not sure if we want to add some annotations to Figure 4 that
> > > (e.g.) the initial DTLS attempts do not need to be strictly ordered in
> > > the order presented, or to indicate which lines are retries.
> > 
> > [Med] The text explaining that figure mentions the following: "...two TCP
> > SYNs and two DTLS ClientHello messages at the same time over IPv6 and
> > IPv4."
> > 
> > Adding annotation would be redundant, IMO.

It's often helpful for the figure to stand alone, but I'm happy to wait and
see if anyone else asks for a change.

-Ben


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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 16:27:41 -0600
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@mcafee.com>
CC: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org>, "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dots/nodk97t0DySSkVYKkj2xzU6gqEE>
Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (2nd Part)
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On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 01:30:01PM +0000, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Dots <dots-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of
> > mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2019 4:11 PM
> > To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>; draft-ietf-dots-signal-
> > channel@ietf.org
> > Cc: dots@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (2nd Part)
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Re-,
> > 
> > Please see inline.
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > Med
> > 
> > > -----Message d'origine-----
> > > De : Benjamin Kaduk [mailto:kaduk@mit.edu] Envoyé : mercredi 16
> > > janvier 2019 01:14 À : draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org
> > > Cc : dots@ietf.org
> > > Objet : AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25
> > >
> > >
> > > Section 4.4
> > >
> > >    GET:    DOTS clients may use the GET method to subscribe to DOTS
> > >            server status messages, or to retrieve the list of its
> > >            mitigations maintained by a DOTS server (Section 4.4.2).
> > >
> > > I'm not really a canonical HTTP expert, but I suspect that using GET
> > > to "subscribe" will raise some eyebrows at later stages of review.
> > 
> > [Med] We are following RFC7641. I would be surprised if this is an issue.
> > 
> >  Maybe
> > > we should just leave it as-is and wait for such review to arrive,
> > > though, rather than trying to do something preemptively.
> > 
> > [Med] Yes.

Sounds good.

> > >
> > > I don't know if this is the proper section to talk about it, but we
> > > should probably have some text justifying the use of application-layer
> > > acknowledgment as opposed to just using Confirmable CoAP messages.
> > 
> > [Med] I'm not sure to understand this one. Which "application-layer
> > acknowledgment" are you referring to?

Maybe I was just misreading.  Does

   Requests marked by the DOTS client as Non-confirmable messages are
   sent at regular intervals until a response is received from the DOTS
   server.

refer to a "response" at the application layer (as opposed to the CoAP
layer)?

> > >
> > > Section 4.4.1
> > >
> > > If Figure 5 is going to use actual/example values for cuid and mid,
> > > then I'd suggest also using actual/example values for the JSON fields
> > > (instead of "integer" and "string" and such).
> > 
> > [Med] I split the figure into two so that we don't have this problem.
> > 
> > >
> > >    cuid:  Stands for Client Unique Identifier.  A globally unique
> > >       identifier that is meant to prevent collisions among DOTS clients,
> > >       especially those from the same domain.  It MUST be generated by
> > >       DOTS clients.
> > >
> > > In order to get global uniqueness we either need sufficient randomness
> > > or a hierarchical allocation strategy.  Since we recommend a strategy
> > > that involves hashing the (public) client certificate, we may also
> > > want to note that this value does not need to be unguessable.  If a
> > > random allocation is possible, I suggest giving guidance on how many
> > > random bits must be used to sufficiently ensure global uniqueness (128
> > > might be enough).
> > 
> > [Med] An attack vector that can be achieved if the cuid is guessable is if a
> > misbehaving client from within the client's domain succeeds to be granted
> > access by the server and then uses the cuid of another client of the domain
> > to delete active mitigation/etc.
> > 
> > For this attack vector to happen, the misbehaving client needs to pass
> > security validation checks by the server. Therefore, I'm not sure if it is worth
> > to add an allocation reco given this perquisite.
> > 
> > Thoughts?

I don't think we need to have text around 'cuid' allocation, but should
mention the possibility of this spoofing attack by a compromised client, in
the security considerations.

> UUID discussed in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4122 is another way of generating a globally unique identifier.  A compromised DOTS client can sniff the TLS 1.2 handshake, use the client certificate to identify the "cuid" used by another DOTS client. This attack is not possible with TLS 1.3 (TLS handshake is encrypted).

For 1.3 the attacker would need to have data from a server in order to see
another client's certificate, yes, which is presumably a harder attack.

I don't think a UUID reference would be very valuable here.

> Cheers,
> -Tiru
> 
> > 
> > >
> > >                           The output of the cryptographic hash algorithm
> > >       is truncated to 16 bytes; truncation is done by stripping off the
> > >       final 16 bytes.  The truncated output is base64url encoded.
> > >
> > > side note: Truncation to 128 bits reduces the collision resistance to
> > > 64-bit strength, though this is probably acceptable in this use case.
> > >
> > >       DOTS servers MUST return 4.09 (Conflict) error code to a DOTS peer
> > >       to notify that the 'cuid' is already in-use by another DOTS
> > >       client.  Upon receipt of that error code, a new 'cuid' MUST be
> > >       generated by the DOTS peer.
> > >
> > > Is there any way in which this situation could arise during some sort
> > > of migration scenario?
> > 
> > [Med] This can be for example a client which does not follow the "SHOULD"
> > for creating the cuid.

Of course.  I'm wondering if a legitmiate client that does follow the
"SHOULD" could ever see this error code in the absence of an attack, for
example if the client's network address changes.

> > >
> > >       Client-domain DOTS gateways MUST handle 'cuid' collision directly
> > >       and it is RECOMMENDED that 'cuid' collision is handled directly by
> > >       server-domain DOTS gateways.
> > >
> > > Is a gateway supposed to know if it is "client-side" or "server-side"
> > > by explicit configuration or some more automatic method?
> > 
> > [Med] This can be done by an explicit configuration.

Okay.  Let's wait to see if any other reviewers ask for clarifying text
that this can only be known via explicit configuration.

> > >
> > >    'cuid' and 'mid' MUST NOT appear in the PUT request message body.
> > >
> > > Do we need to say this given that there's no obvious structure in
> > > which to put them?  (That is, is this just a reminder to implementors
> > > of a previous version of the draft versus guidance to new
> > > implementations?)
> > 
> > [Med] We used to have those in the message body in previous versions of
> > the spec/implementations. Furthermore, there are cases where "mid" is
> > allowed to be included in the message body (e.g., PUT response). We
> > included this note for implementers because of some behaviors observed
> > during past interops.

Okay.  (I think this is actually one of the things I asked before and you
already answered; sorry for the duplication.)

> > >
> > >       The prefix list MUST NOT include broadcast, loopback, or multicast
> > >       addresses.  These addresses are considered as invalid values.
> > > In
> > >
> > > Does "invalid" mean that the particular address gets ignored or that
> > > the entire request is rejected?
> > 
> > [Med] The expected behavior is covered by this text:
> > 
> > " ... or contains invalid or unknown parameters, the DOTS server MUST reply
> > with 4.00 (Bad Request)."
> > 
> > >
> > >    target-fqdn:   A list of Fully Qualified Domain Names (FQDNs)
> > >       identifying resources under attack.  An FQDN is the full name of a
> > >       resource, rather than just its hostname.  For example, "venera" is
> > >       a hostname, and "venera.isi.edu" is an FQDN [RFC1983].
> > >
> > > I would suggest referring to draft-ietf-dnsop-terminology-bis rather
> > > than trying to reproduce a definition of FQDN.
> > >
> > 
> > [Med] I added an informative reference to draft-ietf-dnsop-terminology-bis.

Thanks

> > > We also may want to note that the DNS view can change depending on the
> > > vantage point used to make the observation.
> > 
> > [Med] Not sure what to do with this one given that the text says:
> > 
> > "How a name is passed to an underlying name resolution library is
> > implementation- and deployment-specific."

I was thinking something like "the results returned for resolving a name
can depend on many factors, including when the request was made and the
address of the DNS resolver used -- there is no guarantee that the DOTS
server will resolve a name to the same addresses that the DOTS client
does".

> > >
> > > On page 18 we say that server-domain DOTS gateways "MUST supply [...]
> > > 'cdid'", but the previous paragraph says that there SHOULD be a
> > > configuration option for whether to insert 'cdid' on such systems.
> > > The two requirements are in conflict; which was intended?  (I assume
> > > the MUST -- why would it be desired to not have the information
> > > available?)
> > 
> > [Med] This text is about gateways that are instructed to insert the cdid
> > parameter. gateways facing a client's domain are in this case.
> > 
> > I updated the text with "server-domain DOTS gateways instructed to insert
> > the 'cdid' parameter MUST supply.."

Ah, that makes sense -- thanks.

> > >
> > > The same paragraph also says that the 'cdid' is "likely to be the same
> > > as" the 'cuid', though in addition to the listed reasons the client
> > > only has a SHOULD requirement to follow this procedure for generating
> > > 'cuid'; it may be worth noting the client's leeway here as well.
> > 
> > [Med] Yes, this is why we have "likely" in the text.
> > 
> > >
> > >       If a DOTS client is provisioned, for example, with distinct
> > >       certificates as a function of the peer server-domain DOTS gateway,
> > >       distinct 'cdid' values may be supplied by a server-domain DOTS
> > >       gateway.  The ultimate DOTS server MUST treat those 'cdid' values
> > >       as equivalent.
> > >
> > > Is this paragraph trying to say that a client might supply different
> > > certs to different gateways in the same domain
> > 
> > [Med] Yes.
> > 
> >  (e.g., if one such
> > > gateway does not support ecdsa certs)?  It was pretty confusing on the
> > > first read, in particular how the ultimate DOTS server would know that
> > > the different 'cdid' values actually correspond to the same client
> > > [domain].
> > 
> > [Med] This is supposed to be provisioned on the server. This is deployment-
> > specific; hence no mention in the draft.

Ah, thanks for the explanation.  I don't have any suggested rewording that
would help clarify -- all I can come up with is to add ", when configured
to know they represent the same client", which is both long and not really
saying anything new.

> > >
> > >       DOTS servers MUST ignore 'cdid' attributes that are directly
> > >       supplied by source DOTS clients or client-domain DOTS gateways.
> > >       This implies that first server-domain DOTS gateways MUST strip
> > >       'cdid' attributes supplied by DOTS clients.  DOTS servers SHOULD
> > >       support a configuration parameter to identify DOTS gateways that
> > >       are trusted to supply 'cdid' attributes.
> > >
> > > Is there any mechanism (e.g., autodetection) other than this by which
> > > servers/proxies can learn about the topology information needed to
> > > fulfil these requirements?
> > 
> > [Med] I'm not aware of such mechanism.

Okay, thanks.

> > >
> > >    Because of the complexity to handle partial failure cases, this
> > >    specification does not allow for including multiple mitigation
> > >    requests in the same PUT request.  Concretely, a DOTS client MUST NOT
> > >    include multiple 'scope' parameters in the same PUT request.
> > >
> > > "multiple 'scope' parameters" reads like a CBOR object with duplicate
> > > keys; is this intended to refer to a multi-valued array?
> > 
> > [Med] What is intended is that the scope list should include only one entry..
> > 
> > I can change to "multiple 'scope' clauses"

I'm not sure how different that is.  It sounds like you're trying to avoid
"multiple entries in the 'scope' array"?

> > >
> > >    The DOTS server couples the DOTS signal and data channel sessions
> > >    using the DOTS client identity and optionally the 'cdid' parameter
> > >
> > > This requires the client to use the same certificate to authenticate
> > > the signal and data channels to a given server (even when a gateway is
> > > in use).  Above, we discussed cases where a client might have multiple
> > > certificates available.
> > 
> > [Med] Actually, the text above applies also if distinct certificates are used.
> > Equivalent "client identity" are supposed to be known to the server by an
> > out of band means. In all cases, the identity (same or equivalent) is used to
> > couple the sessions.

Hmm.  If we are talking anything fancier than just comparing Subject
information from the certificate (which apparently I forgot about when I
wrote the above!), I think we may want to have some text in the document
mentioning the possibility of out of band configuration.

> >   Where do we specify the requirement to use the
> > > same certificate for signal and data channels?
> > 
> > [Med] We don't have such requirement in existing DOTS documents.
> > 
> > >
> > >                                                DOTS agents can safely
> > >    ignore Vendor-Specific parameters they don't understand.
> > >
> > > This is not a very useful statemnet if the agent must know that a
> > > parameter is vendor-specific in order to safely ignore it.
> > 
> > [Med] The agent relies on the cbor key value to determine that a parameter
> > can be safely ignored or not (comprehension-required). A range of keys is
> > reserved for comprehension-optional. An agent checks the range to which
> > belong a parameter, and then behaves accordingly.

If we really mean comprehension-optional, maybe we should just say that,
instead of "Vendor-Specific".

> > >
> > >    If the DOTS server does not find the 'mid' parameter value conveyed
> > >    in the PUT request in its configuration data, it MAY accept the
> > >    mitigation request by sending back a 2.01 (Created) response to the
> > >    DOTS client; the DOTS server will consequently try to mitigate the
> > >    attack.
> > >
> > >    If the DOTS server finds the 'mid' parameter value conveyed in the
> > >    PUT request in its configuration data bound to that DOTS client, it
> > >    MAY update the mitigation request, and a 2.04 (Changed) response is
> > >    returned to indicate a successful update of the mitigation request.
> > >
> > > There are two "MAY"s spread across these two paragraphs; do we want to
> > > say anything about in what cases the server might want to have
> > > different behavior (i.e., ignore the MAY)?
> > >
> > 
> > [Med] For the first MAY, a typical example is when a rate limit is enforced:
> > 
> >    Rate-limiting DOTS requests, including those with new 'cuid' values,
> >    from the same DOTS client defends against DoS attacks that would
> >    result in varying the 'cuid' to exhaust DOTS server resources.  Rate-
> >    limit policies SHOULD be enforced on DOTS gateways (if deployed) and
> >    DOTS servers
> > 
> > For the second MAY, the server may have more visibility on the attack and
> > then may decide to update accordingly.
> > 
> > I don't know if it is worth to add examples. Any preference?

I would lean towards adding "A server could reject mitigation requests when
it is near capacity or needs to rate-limit a particular client, for
example" for the former, but leaving the latter as-is.  But I have no
strong preferences here and am happy to advance the document either way.

-Ben


From nobody Wed Jan 16 16:20:05 2019
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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 18:19:53 -0600
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@mcafee.com>
CC: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org>, "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dots/8tMffU3xmECQQbJmhzzEYMFZmL0>
Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (3rd Part)
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On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 01:58:30PM +0000, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Dots <dots-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of
> > mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2019 6:56 PM
> > To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>; draft-ietf-dots-signal-
> > channel@ietf.org
> > Cc: dots@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (3rd Part)
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Re-,
> > 
> > Please see inline.
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > Med
> > 
> > > -----Message d'origine-----
> > > De : Benjamin Kaduk [mailto:kaduk@mit.edu] Envoyé : mercredi 16
> > > janvier 2019 01:14 À : draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org
> > > Cc : dots@ietf.org
> > > Objet : AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25
> > >
> > >
> > >                                                   To avoid maintaining a
> > >    long list of overlapping mitigation requests (i.e., requests with the
> > >    same 'trigger-mitigation' type and overlapping scopes) from a DOTS
> > >    client and avoid error-prone provisioning of mitigation requests from
> > >    a DOTS client, the overlapped lower numeric 'mid' MUST be
> > >    automatically deleted and no longer available at the DOTS server.
> > >    For example, if the DOTS server receives a mitigation request which
> > >    overlaps with an existing mitigation with a higher numeric 'mid', the
> > >    DOTS server rejects the request by returning 4.09 (Conflict) to the
> > >    DOTS client.  [...]
> > >
> > > This seems to be internally inconsistent -- first we hear that the
> > > overlapped mitigation request with lower 'mid' MUST be deleted (BTW,
> > > note my rewording), but at the end we are hearing that a request to
> > > create an overlapping mitgiation must be rejected
> 
> 
> The example is discussing out of order delivery of mitigation requests (DOTS client sends lower numeric 'mid' followed by higher numeric 'mid' but the DOTS server receives the 
> higher numeric 'mid' first and accepts the request. At a later point of time, when the server receives the lower numeric 'mid', the request is rejected by the server with 4.09 error response.

Ah, I guess I was reading too fast; this is already clearly spelled out.

> -Tiru
> 
> > 
> > [Med] It is rejected because it has a lower numeric 'mid'.
> > 
> > ..  (A couple pages
> > > later we also say "can be achieved by sending a PUT request [...] that
> > > will override the existing one with overlapping mitigation scopes"
> > 
> > [Med] Yes, the new one will have a higher 'mid'.
> > 
> > ,
> > > which suggests a resolution of the conflict.
> > 
> > [Med] I don't see any inconsistency. Please clarify if I missed your point.

Tiru got it -- error on my part.

> > >
> > >                  The response includes enough information for a DOTS
> > >    client to recognize the source of the conflict as described below:
> > >
> > >    conflict-information:  Indicates that a mitigation request is
> > >    [...]
> > >
> > > I'm not entirely sure what encoding to infer from just this
> > > description
> > > -- conflict-information/-cause/-scope are in the YANG model, but do we
> > > need to say that the response contains a CBOR representation of the
> > > subtree starting at conflict-information (or something like that), or
> > > is this implicitly specified elsewhere in the document?  For example,
> > > Figure 9 has an explicit JSON diagnostic notation for a message
> > > response.
> > 
> > [Med] This is covered by this text:
> > 
> >    Thhis document specifies a YANG module for
> >    representing DOTS mitigation scopes, DOTS signal channel session
> >    configuration data, and DOTS redirected signalling (Section 5).
> >    Representing these data as CBOR data is assumed to follow the rules
> >    in [I-D.ietf-core-yang-cbor] or those in [RFC7951] combined with
> >    JSON/CBOR conversion rules in [RFC7049].  All parameters in the
> >                                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >    payload of the DOTS signal channel are mapped to CBOR types as
> >    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >    specified in Section 6.
> >    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I would still prefer to see something like "as described below in the
'conflict-information' subtree with only the relevant nodes listed", to try
to forestall any other comments from directorate reviews.

> > >
> > >       conflict-scope:  Indicates the conflict scope.  It may include a
> > >          list of IP addresses, a list of prefixes, a list of port
> > >          numbers, a list of target protocols, a list of FQDNs, a list of
> > >          URIs, a list of alias-names, or a 'mid'.
> > >
> > > This feels a little under-specified -- do we need to include exactly
> > > the conflicting entries?  Or would we just say something like "this
> > > conflicts with 'mid' 8; figure it out"?
> > 
> > [Med] This clause indicates the exact conflict scope. It may be for example:
> > - a conflict of IP addresses. Then, the target addresses in conflict are
> > returned.
> > - a conflict with another request, then the mid of that request is returned
> > - etc.
> > 
> > We can update the text as follows:
> > 
> >       conflict-scope:  Characterizes the exact conflict scope.  It may include a
> >                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >           list of IP addresses, a list of prefixes, a list of port
> >           numbers, a list of target protocols, a list of FQDNs, a list of
> >           URIs, a list of alias-names, or a 'mid'.

That's probably a clarification worth making, thanks.

> > 
> > >
> > >          3:  CUID Collision.  This code is returned when a DOTS client
> > >              uses a 'cuid' that is already used by another DOTS client.
> > >              This code is an indication that the request has been
> > >              rejected and a new request with a new 'cuid' is to be re-
> > >              sent by the DOTS client.  Note that 'conflict-status',
> > >              'conflict-scope', and 'retry-timer' are not returned in the
> > >              error response.
> > >
> > > (Do we want "MUST NOT" 2119 language to prevent their inclusion or is
> > > the current descriptive language sufficient?)
> > >
> > 
> > [Med] OK.
> > 
> > >       conflict-scope:  Indicates the conflict scope.  It may include a
> > >          list of IP addresses, a list of prefixes, a list of port
> > >          numbers, a list of target protocols, a list of FQDNs, a list of
> > >          URIs, a list of alias-names, or references to conflicting ACLs.
> > >
> > > How do I reference an ACL?
> > 
> > [Med] By an acl-name. I updated the text to hint this:
> > 
> > "(by an 'acl-name', typically [I-D.ietf-dots-data-channel])"

Ah, thanks.

> > >
> > >                           This can be achieved by sending a PUT request
> > >    with a new 'mid' value that will override the existing one with
> > >    overlapping mitigation scopes.
> > >
> > > Do we want to reiterate that the existing one will be deleted?
> > 
> > [Med] The text you quoted reminds that the new request will delete the
> > existing one.

I was thinking that sometimes the word "override" means that two items are
both present, but one takes precedence over the other during processing;
"deleted" would then mean that only one of the items is present.

> > >
> > >    For a mitigation request to continue beyond the initial negotiated
> > >    lifetime, the DOTS client has to refresh the current mitigation
> > >    request by sending a new PUT request.  This PUT request MUST use the
> > >    same 'mid' value, and MUST repeat all the other parameters as sent in
> > >    the original mitigation request apart from a possible change to the
> > >    lifetime parameter value.
> > >
> > > If the server did not have a check that the other parameters match,
> > > what would happen?
> > 
> > [Med] A request may be for example inadvertently transitioned from pre-
> > configured to immediate and vice versa. To avoid such issues, the spec
> > mandates the following:
> > 
> > * a client can adjust its mitigation scope by sending a new one that will
> > override an existing one.
> > * a client can update an existing mitigation by echoing the same parameters
> > as those in the initial mitigation request.
> > 
> > But leave it to the server to decide how to handle the refresh:
> > 
> >    If the DOTS server finds the 'mid' parameter value conveyed in the
> >    PUT request in its configuration data bound to that DOTS client, it
> >    MAY update the mitigation request, and a 2.04 (Changed) response is
> >    returned to indicate a successful update of the mitigation request.

That seems consistent with what we do elsewhere, so sounds good.

> >   (Do we need normative language that the server MUST
> > > verify the other parameters when the 'mid' matches?)
> > >
> > > Section 4.4.2
> > >
> > >                           If the representation of all the active
> > >    mitigation requests associated with the DOTS client does not fit
> > >    within a single datagram, the DOTS server MUST use the Block2 Option
> > >    with NUM = 0 in the GET response.  [...]
> > >
> > > I'm not very familiar with CoAP blockwise transfers; is this in
> > > conflict with some normal feature-negotiation scheme or is it okay to
> > > assume that the client will be able to handle this even if the client
> > > has not explictly indicated support?
> > 
> > [Med] RFC7959 indicates the following:
> > 
> >    A CoAP implementation that does not support these options generally
> >    is limited in the size of the representations that can be exchanged,
> >    see Section 4.6 of [RFC7252].  Even though the options are Critical,
> >    a server may decide to start using them in an unsolicited way in a
> >    response.  No effort was expended to provide a capability indication
> >    mechanism supporting that decision: since the block-wise transfer
> >    mechanisms are so fundamental to the use of CoAP for representations
> >    larger than about a kilobyte, there is an expectation that they are
> >    very widely implemented.

Ah, that's quite decisive.  Thanks for pointing me to the reference.

> > >
> > >       This is a mandatory attribute when an attack mitigation is
> > >       triggered.  Particularly, 'mitigation-start' is not returned for a
> > >       mitigation with 'status' code set to 8.
> > >
> > > Is this better as "triggered" or as "active"?
> > 
> > [Med] Changed the text to "when an immediate attack mitigation is
> > triggered".

That takes care of the disambiguation I was hoping for -- thanks :)

> > >
> > > bps-dropped and pps-dropped "SHOULD be a five-minute average", but
> > > that does not seem quite well-defined.  Is it a rolling five-minute
> > > average over bins of one second, or a binned five-minute average for
> > > the last five-minute interval that ends on a multiple of '5', or something
> > else?
> > 
> > [Med] What is meant in an average over 5-minute intervals. Updated the
> > text accordingly.
> > 
> > >
> > >    Upon receipt of a conflict notification message indicating that a
> > >    mitigation request is deactivated because of a conflict, a DOTS
> > >    client MUST NOT resend the same mitigation request before the expiry
> > >    of 'retry-timer'.  It is also recommended that DOTS clients support
> > >    means to alert administrators about mitigation conflicts.
> > >
> > > Do we need to say anything regarding the server behavior when a
> > > retransmit or similar was in flight already when the conflict
> > > notification was generated?  (That is, the server's enforcement of the
> > > MUST NOT may need to be restrained.)
> > 
> > [Med] The MUST NOT is intended to avoid overloading the server, because:
> > 
> >          "Any retransmission of the same
> >          mitigation request before the expiry of this timer is likely to
> >          be rejected by the DOTS server for the same reasons."
> > 
> > The text leave it to the server to decide which action to take when MUST
> > NOT is not followed by a client. The server may decide the silently ignore
> > those, etc.
> > 
> > We can add some text if needed.

Let's leave it alone for now.

> > >
> > >    Alternatively, the DOTS client can explicitly deregister itself by
> > >    issuing a GET request that has the Token field set to the token of
> > >    the observation to be cancelled and includes an Observe Option with
> > >    the value set to '1' (deregister).
> > >
> > > This seems like the more "polite" behavior (as opposed to just
> > > "forgetting" -- why is the polite behavior not the default behavior?
> > 
> > [Med] Done in my local copy.
> > 
> > >
> > > Does the GET in  Figure 13 need to have a ".well-known" and other path
> > > components?
> > >
> > 
> > [Med] Don't think so. Actually, we are mimicking figure 2 in RFC7641.

Ah, thanks for the reference.

-Ben


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To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "Benjamin Kaduk" <kaduk@mit.edu>, "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dots/XRW3EzI-ArhEcbb7imOQBoErWfU>
Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (4th Part)
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org>
CC: "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (5th Part)
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Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 06:51:04 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (5th Part)
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Hi Ben,

Please see inline.

Cheers,
Med

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De=A0: Benjamin Kaduk [mailto:kaduk@mit.edu]
> Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 16 janvier 2019 01:14
> =C0=A0: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org
> Cc=A0: dots@ietf.org
> Objet=A0: AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25
>=20
> Section 7.2
>=20
> The TLS 1.3 handshake with 0-RTT diagram needs to be
> revisited/refreshed, as RFC 8446 does not look like that.  Additionally,
> the usage of PSK as well as a certificate is not defined until
> draft-housley-tls-tls13-cert-with-extern-psk is published.
> I also note that in the diagram as presented, the client is not yet
> known to be authenticated when the server sends its initial (0.5-RTT)
> DOTS signal message.
>=20

[Med] Noted. Thanks.

> Section 7.3
>=20
> This whole section seems to only be relevant for UDP usage, so probably
> the "If UDP is used" clause can be dropped and an introductory statement
> added earlier on.

[Med] Will consider that.=20

>=20
>                               Path MTU MUST be greater than or equal to
>    [CoAP message size + DTLS overhead of 13 octets + authentication
>    overhead of the negotiated DTLS cipher suite + block padding]
>    (Section 4.1.1.1 of [RFC6347]).  If the request size exceeds the path
>    MTU then the DOTS client MUST split the DOTS signal into separate
>    messages, for example the list of addresses in the 'target-prefix'
>    parameter could be split into multiple lists and each list conveyed
>    in a new PUT request.
>=20
> (DTLS 1.3 will have a short header for some packets, that is less than
> 13 octets.)

[Med] The text is more about 1.2. We can add a 1.3 note if you think it is =
useful for the discussion.=20

>=20
> Section 8
>=20
> We've got some requirements in here about limiting behavior of
> clients/servers when talking to gateways; is knowing about the presence
> of a gateway something that's required to happen out of band or is there
> an in-band way to identify that the peer is a gateway?

[Med] An agent does not necessary know that it peer is gateway. A gateway i=
s seen as a server for the client, and a client for a server.=20

>=20
>    messages from an authorized DOTS gateway, thereby creating a two-link
>    chain of transitive authentication between the DOTS client and the
>    DOTS server.
>=20
> This seems to ignore the possibility of setups that include both
> client-domain and server-domain gateways.

[Med] I updated the text to mention this is only an example.=20

>=20
>                  DOTS client certificate validation MUST be performed as
>    per [RFC5280] and the DOTS client certificate MUST conform to the
>    [RFC5280] certificate profile.  [...]
>=20
> This seems to duplicate a requirement already stated in Section 7.1;
> it's probably best to only have normative language in one location, even
> if we need to mention the topic in multiple locations.
> Similarly for the mutual authentication requirement, which we duplicate
> in the second and fourth paragraphs of this section.

[Med] Good point. Fixed.=20

>=20
> If we don't want to use example.com vs. example.net as sample domains,
> we can also use whateverwewant.example, per RFC 6761.

[Med] Will maintain the ones already in the draft. Thanks.=20

>=20
> Section 9
>=20
> We should mention the media-type allocation in the top-level section.

[Med] Will fix that. =20

>=20
> "mappings to CBOR" feels confusing to me, since it leaves empty what we
> are mapping from.  Perhaps just talking about a registry of "CBOR map
> keys" would be better, both here and in the Section 9.3 intro.
>=20

[Med] Unless there is an objection, I can use "CBOR Map Keys".

> Section 9.3
>=20
> I suggest being very explicit about whether new requests for
> registration should be directed to the mailing list or to IANA, as we've
> had some confusion about this elsewhere.
>=20
> The criteria used by the experts also just lists things they should
> consider, but does not provide full clarity on which answer to the
> question is more likely to be approved.  (And yes, I know that this text
> is largely copied from already published RFCs, but we can still do
> better.)

[Med] Will check this.=20

>=20
> Section 9.3.1
>=20
> If we want the value 0 to be reserved we need to say so.

[Med] 0 is not part of the allocation range.=20

> Do we want to say anything about the usage of negative integers as map
> keys?
>=20
> I suggest not mentioning the postal address, given the recent (e.g.)
> GDPR requirements.

[Med] Good point. Done.=20

>=20
> Section 9.3.2
>=20
> It may be worth mentioning Table 4 here as well.

[Med] OK.=20

>=20
> Section 9.5.1
>=20
> We need to specify which range of values we are asking for an allocation
> from.

[Med] Added a mention to 0-255 range.=20

>=20
> Section 9.6.1
>=20
> As above, specify what range we're asking about.

[Med] OK.

>=20
> I expect the current text to get some IESG (or directorate) feedback
> that the Data Item and Semantics descriptions are repetitive and banal.
>=20
> Section 9.7
>=20
> IIUC, IANA is going to ask if we want this module to be "maintained by
> IANA", so it would be good to have an answer ready even if we don't put
> it in the document text.

[Med] This is discussed in -26.

>=20
>    Rate-limiting DOTS requests, including those with new 'cuid' values,
>    from the same DOTS client defends against DoS attacks that would
>=20
> With respect to "new" 'cuid' values, is the server required to remember
> which ones it has seen in perpetuity, or can it time them out
> eventually?

[Med] The attack vector is a DOTS client which changes frequently its cuid.=
 The DOTS server can set an interval in which the same client cannot presen=
t a new cuid.

>=20
> Section 10
>=20
> The security considerations seem to be taking a narrow focus on the
> requirements for and consequences of specific bits on the wire in the
> signal channel protocol.  I think it's appropriate to also include some
> high-level thoughts about the functional behavior of the protocol,
> allowing to signal that an attack is underway and trigger mitigation,
> increasing the availability of services, etc., and the risks that are
> posed by the protocol failing to work properly, whether that means
> letting attack traffic through or improperly blocking legitimate
> traffic.

[Med] Would a pointer to the architecture/requirements I-Ds be sufficient t=
o cover to high-level aspects?

>=20
> Section 13.1
>=20
> I think the IANA registries should be listed as Informational and not
> Normative references.
>=20

[Med] Done.=20

> Section 13.2
>=20
> Pending resolution of the question about using draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor
> rules or RFC7951+RFC7049, the draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor reference may
> need to be Normative.

[Med] Please refer to my answer to that question. draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor=
 is informative.=20

>=20
> Given that "URI" is a well-known abbreviation, we may be able to get
> away with not citing RFC 3986.  On the other hand, it's not causing any
> harm to leave it in...

[Med] Will leave it.=20

>=20
> RFC 4632 needs to be Normative, since we need to know CIDR to
> encode/decode target-prefixes.

[Med] Works for me.=20

>=20
> Similarly, I think that RFCs 6234

[Med] This one is not listed as normative because other hash algos may be u=
sed.=20

, 7413
[Med] The support if TFO is not mandatory. =20

, 7589
[Med] This is a MAY in the spec. It is just fine to leave it as informative=
.=20

, 7918
[Med] Idem as TFO.=20

, 7924
[Med] Idem as TFO. =20

, and 7951
[Med] this one was not listed as normative because the document lists two w=
ays to do the mapping. =20

> should also be Normative.
>=20
>=20
> -Ben


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From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>
To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
CC: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org>, "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (2nd Part)
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>, "Benjamin Kaduk" <kaduk@mit.edu>, "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (1st Part)
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From nobody Wed Jan 16 23:13:26 2019
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To: "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
From: Takahiko Nagata <nagata@lepidum.co.jp>
Message-ID: <e508fc49-fe2f-8160-8f0b-cba1868be738@lepidum.co.jp>
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 16:13:18 +0900
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Subject: [Dots] Comments on dots-signal-control-filtering-01
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Hi Kaname,

I would like to 2 comments on dots-signal-control-filtering-01.

(Comment1) Minimal attributes for control-filtering. ("lifetime" behavior)
  Minimal attributes of SignalChannel MitigationRequest
  for control-filtering is only the followings, I think.
  - acl-list(acl-name, activation-type)
  - lifetime

  So, We can send acl-list via SignalChannel without
  other Mitigation request parameters.

  In this case, we need to decide behavior of "lifetime".
  I think "lifetime" is ignored in this case.
  Because acl-list(acl-name, activation-type) should be
  managed only DataChannel side for specification simply.


(Comment2) Should be specified behavior.
(a) Not be affected by "trigger-mitigation"
  acl-list(acl-name, activation-type) is soon be applied
  even if "trigger-mitigation" is false.

(b) Do not affect to "Efficacy Update"
  acl-list(acl-name, activation-type) would be ignored
  at "Efficacy Update" success or reject.

(c) GET response of Mitigation Request
  acl-list(acl-name, activation-type) would not be included
  on respose of GET Mitigation Request.

(d) In DELETE, no behavior(ex: rollback) for acl-list.


Best Regards,
Takahiko Nagata


From nobody Wed Jan 16 23:20:41 2019
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From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>
To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "Benjamin Kaduk" <kaduk@mit.edu>, "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dots/8_NKWb3idBMzd2zgxb3mmMuOC-E>
Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (1st Part)
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From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dots/oUjq_cN3oktnJuNKVXFtQikFUCw>
Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (3rd Part)
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@mcafee.com>
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Re-,

Please see inline.=20

Cheers,
Med

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De=A0: Benjamin Kaduk [mailto:kaduk@mit.edu]
> Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 16 janvier 2019 18:44
> =C0=A0: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
> Cc=A0: BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN; draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org=
;
> dots@ietf.org
> Objet=A0: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (1st Part)
>=20
> Trying to get both Tiru and Med's comments, inline...
>=20
> On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 11:10:37AM +0000, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote=
:
> > Hi Med,
> >
> > Please see inline
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Dots <dots-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of
> > > mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
> > > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2019 1:30 PM
> > > To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>; draft-ietf-dots-signal-
> > > channel@ietf.org
> > > Cc: dots@ietf.org
> > > Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (1=
st
> Part)
> > >
> > > This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click
> links or
> > > open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content=
 is
> > > safe.
> > >
> > > Hi Ben,
> > >
> > > Thank you for the detailed review.
> > >
> > > Please see inline a first set of replies.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Med
> > >
> > > > -----Message d'origine-----
> > > > De=A0: Benjamin Kaduk [mailto:kaduk@mit.edu] Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi =
16
> > > > janvier 2019 01:14 =C0=A0: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org
> > > > Cc=A0: dots@ietf.org
> > > > Objet=A0: AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25
> > > >
> > > > AD review of -25.  (Note that -26 is out already, but to preserve m=
y
> > > > sanity I am still using the section numbers from the -25.  I took a
> > > > quick look at the diff, and tried to remove comments that are no
> > > > longer applicable, but probably missed some.
> > > >
> > > > This review is pretty long, but I think the document is actually in
> > > > pretty good shape -- the length of review comments is just a normal
> > > > frequency of rough edges multiplied by a long document.
> > > >
> > > > I will make a github pull request with some changes that I think ar=
e
> > > > just editorial (but feel free to bring them up as discussion items =
if
> > > > you are not sure that they are editorial, disagree with the changes=
,
> > > > etc.)
> > > >
> > > > We should probably introduce (or avoid) the concept of "peace-time"
> > > > (sometimes spelled without the hyphen) and perhaps the correspondin=
g
> > > > attack situation before using it.
> > > >
> > >
> > > [Med] We do have two occurrences in the document. I fixed these two.
>=20
> Thanks.  I guess my more meta-point was whether we expect the audience to
> be familiar with the usage of "peacetime" for "absence of a DoS attack" -=
-
> I personally found it slightly jarring, but I'm also not exactly the targ=
et
> audience.
>=20
> > > > Section 1
> > > >
> > > > I wasn't sure whether the RFC 4987 reference was supposed to be for
> > > > what an ACK-flood is or the fact that it is CPU-exhausting or somet=
hing
> else.
> > > > (Searching for those terms in its text did not help me come to a
> > > > conclusion.)
> > > >
> > >
> > > [Med] RFC 4987 is a pointer to back that SYN flood is memory exhausti=
ng.
> I
> > > move the citation right after SYN-flood.
>=20
> Ah, that makes perfect sense; thanks.
>=20
> > >
> > > > We also talk about "DOTS servers" and "DOTS agents" in Section 1,
> > > > before we've defined the terminology.  But these two are sufficient=
ly
> > > > self-explanatory that it may be fine to leave them as-is.
> > > >
> > >
> > > [Med] You are right. I don't think a change is needed.
> > >
> > >
> > > >                                                  This protocol enab=
les
> > > >    cooperation between DOTS agents to permit a highly-automated net=
work
> > > >    defense that is robust, reliable, and secure.
> > > >
> > > > We should explain somewhere what we mean by "secure".  (I guess, th=
at
> > > > the signal and data channels are integrity- and
> > > > confidentiality-protected, and that changes in mitigation status ar=
e
> > > > not made unless properly authorized.)
> > > >
> > >
> > > [Med] By secure, we meant the set of features called in Section 2.4 o=
f
> draft-
> > > ietf-dots-requirements. We can add a pointer to that section if this
> helps.
>=20
> It's probably worth doing.

[Med] Done.

>=20
> > > > Section 3
> > > >
> > > >             DOTS clients MAY alternatively support means to dynamic=
ally
> > > >    discover the ports used by their DOTS servers.  [...]
> > > >
> > > > If we have some examples in mind of dynamic discovery protocols, it
> > > > would be appropriate to provide informative references here.
> > > >
> > >
> > > [Med] OK. I added an informative reference to draft-boucadair-dots-
> > > discovery.
> > >
> > > > We should also have an informative reference for "Happy Eyeballs"
> > > > (e.g., RFC 8305).
> > > >
> > >
> > > [Med] That text points to the section defining HE:
> > >
> > > A Happy Eyeballs procedure for DOTS signal channel is
> > >    specified in Section 4.3.
> > >
> > > 8305 is cited in section 4.3:
> > >
> > >    To overcome these connection setup problems, the DOTS client attem=
pts
> > >    to connect to its DOTS server(s) using both IPv6 and IPv4, and tri=
es
> > >    both DTLS over UDP and TLS over TCP in a manner similar to the Hap=
py
> > >    Eyeballs mechanism [RFC8305].
> > >
> > > This is sufficient, IMO.
>=20
> So it is.  Sorry to have missed that before.
>=20
> > > >    From that standpoint, this document specifies a YANG module for
> > > >    representing DOTS mitigation scopes, DOTS signal channel session
> > > >    [...]
> > > >
> > > > Which standpoint?
> > >
> > > [Med] that is "use the same data models...".
> > >
> > > I deleted the "From that standpoint," because this may not be clear.
>=20
> Sounds good.
>=20
> > > >
> > > >    Representing these data as CBOR data is assumed to follow the ru=
les
> > > >    in [I-D.ietf-core-yang-cbor] or those in [RFC7951] combined with
> > > >    JSON/CBOR conversion rules in [RFC7049].  All parameters in the
> > > >    payload of the DOTS signal channel are mapped to CBOR types as
> > > >    specified in Section 6.
> > > >
> > > > How do I know which set of rules is in use?
> > >
> > > [Med] This s not important from a DOTS interoperability standpoint. W=
hat
> is
> > > important is the mapping table in Section 6 (and mapping entries that
> will
> > > defined in future documents).
> > >
> > >  Are the two sets of rules
> > > > equivalent and interoperable?
>=20
> So the claim is that following either set of rules will result in the sam=
e
> (well, equivalent) encoding, based on the relevant CBOR types?  If so, th=
is
> text could probably be reworded to just use declarative language instead =
of
> "is assumed to", maybe something like "are encoded in CBOR; the procedure=
s
> in [] or [] will produce a valid encoding", though I don't have a great
> concrete suggestion off the top of my head.

[Med] What about the following:

   This document specifies a YANG module for representing DOTS
   mitigation scopes, DOTS signal channel session configuration data,
   and DOTS redirected signalling (Section 5).  Representing these data
   as CBOR data can either follow the rules in [I-D.ietf-core-yang-cbor]
   or those in [RFC7951] combined with JSON/CBOR conversion rules in
   [RFC7049]; both approaches produce a valid encoding.  All parameters
   in the payload of the DOTS signal channel are mapped to CBOR types as
   specified in Section 6.

>=20
> > > >    DOTS agents MUST support GET, PUT, and DELETE CoAP methods.  [..=
.]
> > > >
> > > > As written, this applies to all agents (clients, servers, and proxi=
es).
> > > > Presumably this is intended,
> > >
> > > [Med] Yes.
> > >
> > >  but I just wante to double-check --
> > > > sometimes it's okay to place weaker requirements on clients.
> > > >
> > > >    In deployments where one or more translators (e.g., Traditional =
NAT
> > > >    [RFC3022], CGN [RFC6888], NAT64 [RFC6146], NPTv6 [RFC6296]) are
> > > >    enabled between the client's network and the DOTS server, DOTS
> signal
> > > >    channel messages forwarded to a DOTS server MUST NOT include
> > > internal
> > > >    IP addresses/prefixes and/or port numbers; external addresses/
> > > >    prefixes and/or port numbers as assigned by the translator MUST =
be
> > > >
> > > > Do we want to give any examples of signal channel messages that mig=
ht
> > > > include internal addresses/prefixes?
> > >
> > > [Med] I'd avoid citing a message which is not defined yet at this sta=
ge
> of the
> > > document.
>=20
> Okay.
>=20
> > > >
> > > >    Such procedure is needed to avoid experiencing long connection
> > > >    delays.  For example, if an IPv4 path to reach a DOTS server is
> > > >    found, but the DOTS server's IPv6 path is not working, a dual-st=
ack
> > > >    DOTS client may experience a significant connection delay compar=
ed
> to
> > > >    an IPv4-only DOTS client.  [...]
> > > >
> > > > There seems a bit of a mismatch between "found" and "not working". =
 If
> > > > the point is supposed to be that the client is going to try both IP=
v4
> > > > and IPv6 but the v6 path has issues and it would take the client's
> > > > algorithm some extra time to choose to fall back to v4, then maybe =
"iv
> > > > an IPv4 path to a DOTS server is functional and there is also an
> > > > apparently present but non-functional IPv6 path to the same server"=
?
> > >
> > > [Med] You got it. I changed the text to:
> > >
> > > "if an IPv4 path to reach a DOTS server is functional, but the DOTS
> server's
> > > IPv6 path is non-functional,"
> > >
> > > >
> > > >                                   These connection attempts are
> > > >    performed by the DOTS client when it initializes.  The results o=
f
> the
> > > >    Happy Eyeballs procedure are used by the DOTS client for sending=
 its
> > > >    subsequent messages to the DOTS server.
> > > >
> > > > I see this is scoped to "when the client initializes", so I don't k=
now
> > > > whether it adds more or not to end with "for the duration of the DO=
TS
> > > > session" or some similar scoping for the caching of the happy eyeba=
lls
> > > > results.
> > >
> > > [Med] The connection attempts are performed each time the client has =
to
> > > select among a list of v4, v6 (tls, dtls). This is particularly true =
when
> the client
> > > initiates, but this may also be true each time the client has to sele=
ct
> among
> > > v4, v6, DTLS, TLS (e.g., the client attaches to a new network).
> > >
> > > I updated the text to:
> > >
> > > "These connection attempts are performed by the DOTS client when it
> > > initializes, or in general when it has to select an address family an=
d
> transport
> > > to contact its DOTS server."
> >
> > Happy eyeballs mandates caching the results, see
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6555#section-4 (to avoid thrashing the
> network).
> > We may want to update the above line accordingly.
>=20
> We probably do, perhaps by qualifying the decision as being one made when
> conditions have changed in some way since the last decision (and some
> amount of timeout could be considered a "change").
>=20
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >    client because there is no long delay before using IPv4 and TCP.
> The
> > > >    DOTS client repeats the mechanism to discover whether DOTS signa=
l
> > > >    channel messages with DTLS over UDP becomes available from the D=
OTS
> > > >    server, so the DOTS client can migrate the DOTS signal channel f=
rom
> > > >
> > > > What would cause UDP to "become available"?
> > >
> > > [Med] In this example, this is assumed to be IPv6 path (with no
> middlebox)
> > > available again.
> > >
> > > In general, this can be due to a path change, network configuration
> change,
> > > middlebox configuration change, IPv6 become functional, etc.
>=20
> I think I would have been less confused if we said "periodically repeats"=
.

[Med] Fixed.

>=20
> > >   Would this be a case like
> > > > if there's a stateful NAT or where we need to actively apply some s=
ort
> > > > of NAT traversal?  If so, do we want to list it as an example?  (If
> > > > it's a complicated scenario, it may not be worth listing an example=
,
> > > > of
> > > > course.)
> > >
> > > [Med] The text already says the following:
> > >
> > > "it is assumed that the IPv6 path is broken and UDP traffic is droppe=
d by
> a
> > > middlebox"
> > >
> > > I do think this is sufficient.
>=20
> It's probably fine, yes.  I was just wondering if there would be scenario=
s
> where the situation would be improved if a DOTS agent applied active
> NAT-busting; if so, we would then need to decide whether the benefits wer=
e
> large enough and the situation common enough to merit a mention.  (It
> sounds like we think it is not common enough to mention, which is fine.)
>=20
> > > >
> > > > I'm not sure if we want to add some annotations to Figure 4 that
> > > > (e.g.) the initial DTLS attempts do not need to be strictly ordered=
 in
> > > > the order presented, or to indicate which lines are retries.
> > >
> > > [Med] The text explaining that figure mentions the following: "...two=
 TCP
> > > SYNs and two DTLS ClientHello messages at the same time over IPv6 and
> > > IPv4."
> > >
> > > Adding annotation would be redundant, IMO.
>=20
> It's often helpful for the figure to stand alone, but I'm happy to wait a=
nd
> see if anyone else asks for a change.
>=20

[Med] Thanks.

> -Ben


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From nobody Thu Jan 17 00:04:22 2019
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To: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>, "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0184C52F1B@marathon> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC0184C733EB@marathon>
From: kaname nishizuka <kaname@nttv6.jp>
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Subject: Re: [Dots] Call for adoption on draft-boucadair-dots-server-discovery
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I support the adoption of the draft.

And I agree with the concern Dan mentioned last month.
 > However, I would really encourage the working group to analyze if all 4 discovery methods are really necessary.
I believe that the draft can solve this issue.

thanks,
kaname


On 2019/01/10 4:17, Roman Danyliw wrote:
> Hello!
>
> Excluding support from the draft authors, the interest in adoption (or any response) was low on the list (one) and also at IETF 103.  The previous discussion around this draft was more spirited.  My concern is that this call may have been lost in the end of year holidays.  To that end, I'm extending the call for adoption.
>
> Please provide feedback to the list/chairs if you believe that this document should be adopted as a WG document.  This extended adoption call will end on Tuesday, January 22.
>
> Regards,
> Roman and Frank
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roman Danyliw
>> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2018 5:22 PM
>> To: dots@ietf.org
>> Subject: [Dots] Call for adoption on draft-boucadair-dots-server-discovery
>>
>> Hello!
>>
>> This is the start of a two week call for input on the WG adoption of the
>> document:
>>
>> draft-boucadair-dots-server-discovery
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-dots-server-discovery-05
>>
>> The document has been presented and discussed at IETF 103, IETF 100 and
>> IETF 99;  and revisions have been made based on WG feedback.  Discussion
>> of adoption of this draft was previously deferred pending submission of the
>> signal draft for publication (which occurred in September 2018).
>>
>> At the IETF 103 meeting, there were not many participants who had read the
>> draft.
>>
>> Please provide feedback to the list/chairs if you believe that this document
>> should be adopted as a WG document.  The adoption call will end on
>> December 14 2018.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Roman and Frank
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Dots mailing list
>> Dots@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots
> _______________________________________________
> Dots mailing list
> Dots@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots


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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>, "Benjamin Kaduk" <kaduk@mit.edu>
CC: "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org>, "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (2nd Part)
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Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (2nd Part)
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>, "Benjamin Kaduk" <kaduk@mit.edu>
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Thread-Topic: AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (3rd Part)
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Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (3rd Part)
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Thread-Topic: AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (1st Part)
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Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (1st Part)
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From: "Jon Shallow" <supjps-ietf@jpshallow.com>
To: "'Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy'" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@mcafee.com>, <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, <dots@ietf.org>, "'Benjamin Kaduk'" <kaduk@mit.edu>, <draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org>
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Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 10:08:38 -0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dots/cbMmXEfiTYTv3uf2wxOrgFVJvnk>
Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (1st Part)
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dots [mailto: dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Konda,
> Tirumaleswar Reddy
> Sent: 17 January 2019 09:33
> To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; Benjamin Kaduk; =
draft-ietf-dots-signal-
> channel@ietf.org
> Cc: dots@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 =
(1st Part)
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Dots <dots-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of
> > mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
> > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2019 1:16 PM
> > To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
> <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>;
> > Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>; =
draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org
> > Cc: dots@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 =
(1st Part)
> >
> > This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click =
links or
> > open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the =
content is
> > safe.
> >
> > Re-,
> >
> > OK.
> >
> > Given that we don't have an explicit mention about this in 8305, I =
added
> this
> > NEW sentence echoing what was in 6555:
> >
> >    Note that the DOTS client must cache information regarding the
> >    outcome of each connection attempt, and it uses that information =
to
> >    avoid thrashing the network with subsequent attempts.
>=20
> Minor change:
>=20
> Note that the DOTS client must cache information regarding the
> outcome of each connection attempt for a specific time period (e.g. 10
> minutes), and it uses that information to
> avoid thrashing the network with subsequent attempts.

How frequently should the client retry when all 4 connection methods =
fail - 10 minutes is excessive to me?

~Jon

>=20
> -Tiru
>=20
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Med
> >
> > > -----Message d'origine-----
> > > De : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
> > > [mailto:TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com]
> > > Envoy=C3=A9 : jeudi 17 janvier 2019 08:16
> > > =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN; Benjamin Kaduk; =
draft-ietf-dots-signal-
> > > channel@ietf.org Cc : dots@ietf.org Objet : RE: AD review of
> > > draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (1st Part)
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
> > > > <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
> > > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2019 12:33 PM
> > > > To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
> > <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>;
> > > > Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>;
> > > > draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org
> > > > Cc: dots@ietf.org
> > > > Subject: RE: AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (1st
> > > > Part)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi Tiru,
> > > >
> > > > As you know RFC8305 obsoletes RFC6555.
> > > >
> > > > I fail to see where caching results is mentioned in 8305. Do =
you?
> > >
> > > Though RFC8035 obsoletes RFC6555, it is still compatible with =
RFC6555
> > > (see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8305#appendix-A).
> > > It is useful to cache the happy eyeball results for a specific =
time.
> > >
> > > -Tiru
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Med
> > > >
> > > > > -----Message d'origine-----
> > > > > De : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
> > > > > [mailto:TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com]
> > > > > Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 16 janvier 2019 12:11 =C3=80 : =
BOUCADAIR Mohamed
> > > > > TGI/OLN; Benjamin Kaduk; draft-ietf-dots-signal- =
channel@ietf.org Cc :
> > > > > dots@ietf.org Objet : RE: AD review of
> > > > > draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (1st Part)
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Med,
> > > > >
> > > > > Please see inline
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Dots <dots-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of
> > > > > > mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2019 1:30 PM
> > > > > > To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>; draft-ietf-dots-signal-
> > > > > > channel@ietf.org
> > > > > > Cc: dots@ietf.org
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of
> > > > > > draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (1st
> > > > > Part)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >                                   These connection =
attempts are
> > > > > > >    performed by the DOTS client when it initializes.  The
> > > > > > > results of
> > > the
> > > > > > >    Happy Eyeballs procedure are used by the DOTS client =
for
> > > > > > > sending
> > > its
> > > > > > >    subsequent messages to the DOTS server.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I see this is scoped to "when the client initializes", so =
I
> > > > > > > don't know whether it adds more or not to end with "for =
the
> > > > > > > duration of the DOTS session" or some similar scoping for =
the
> > > > > > > caching of the happy eyeballs results.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Med] The connection attempts are performed each time the =
client
> > > > > > has to select among a list of v4, v6 (tls, dtls). This is
> > > > > > particularly true when
> > > > > the client
> > > > > > initiates, but this may also be true each time the client =
has to
> > > > > > select
> > > > > among
> > > > > > v4, v6, DTLS, TLS (e.g., the client attaches to a new =
network).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I updated the text to:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "These connection attempts are performed by the DOTS client =
when
> > > > > > it initializes, or in general when it has to select an =
address
> > > > > > family and
> > > > > transport
> > > > > > to contact its DOTS server."
> > > > >
> > > > > Happy eyeballs mandates caching the results, see
> > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6555#section-4 (to avoid =
thrashing
> > > > > the network).
> > > > > We may want to update the above line accordingly.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > -Tiru
> > _______________________________________________
> > Dots mailing list
> > Dots@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots
> _______________________________________________
> Dots mailing list
> Dots@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots


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From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>
To: Jon Shallow <supjps-ietf@jpshallow.com>, "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>, "'Benjamin Kaduk'" <kaduk@mit.edu>, "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (1st Part)
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Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (1st Part)
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To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "Benjamin Kaduk" <kaduk@mit.edu>, "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dots/--cRG6YY-5cvVtrtdcbuZfoZ2X8>
Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (5th Part)
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Thread-Topic: AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (5th Part)
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From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>
To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "Benjamin Kaduk" <kaduk@mit.edu>, "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (5th Part)
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From nobody Thu Jan 17 05:10:17 2019
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Subject: [Dots] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-data-channel-25.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the DDoS Open Threat Signaling WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) Data Channel Specification
        Authors         : Mohamed Boucadair
                          Tirumaleswar Reddy
                          Kaname Nishizuka
                          Liang Xia
                          Prashanth Patil
                          Andrew Mortensen
                          Nik Teague
	Filename        : draft-ietf-dots-data-channel-25.txt
	Pages           : 69
	Date            : 2019-01-17

Abstract:
   The document specifies a Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat
   Signaling (DOTS) data channel used for bulk exchange of data that
   cannot easily or appropriately communicated through the DOTS signal
   channel under attack conditions.

   This is a companion document to the DOTS signal channel
   specification.

Editorial Note (To be removed by RFC Editor)

   Please update these statements within the document with the RFC
   number to be assigned to this document:

   o  "This version of this YANG module is part of RFC XXXX;"

   o  "RFC XXXX: Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling
      (DOTS) Data Channel Specification";

   o  reference: RFC XXXX

   Please update these statements with the RFC number to be assigned to
   the following document:

   o  "RFC ZZZZ: Network Access Control List (ACL) YANG Data Model"
      (used to be [I-D.ietf-netmod-acl-model])
   Please update the "revision" date of the YANG module.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dots-data-channel/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-data-channel-25
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-dots-data-channel-25

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dots-data-channel-25


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Thu Jan 17 05:13:39 2019
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>, "Benjamin Kaduk (kaduk@mit.edu)" <kaduk@mit.edu>
Thread-Topic: [Dots] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-data-channel-25.txt
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Hi all,=20

This version fixes two issues with the YANG module (upper-port, any protoco=
l). These two were reported by Ben in his AD review of the signal channel.=
=20

Cheers,
Med=20

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De=A0: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de internet-
> drafts@ietf.org
> Envoy=E9=A0: jeudi 17 janvier 2019 14:10
> =C0=A0: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Cc=A0: dots@ietf.org
> Objet=A0: [Dots] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-data-channel-25.txt
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
> This draft is a work item of the DDoS Open Threat Signaling WG of the IET=
F.
>=20
>         Title           : Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signa=
ling
> (DOTS) Data Channel Specification
>         Authors         : Mohamed Boucadair
>                           Tirumaleswar Reddy
>                           Kaname Nishizuka
>                           Liang Xia
>                           Prashanth Patil
>                           Andrew Mortensen
>                           Nik Teague
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-dots-data-channel-25.txt
> 	Pages           : 69
> 	Date            : 2019-01-17
>=20
> Abstract:
>    The document specifies a Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat
>    Signaling (DOTS) data channel used for bulk exchange of data that
>    cannot easily or appropriately communicated through the DOTS signal
>    channel under attack conditions.
>=20
>    This is a companion document to the DOTS signal channel
>    specification.
>=20
> Editorial Note (To be removed by RFC Editor)
>=20
>    Please update these statements within the document with the RFC
>    number to be assigned to this document:
>=20
>    o  "This version of this YANG module is part of RFC XXXX;"
>=20
>    o  "RFC XXXX: Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling
>       (DOTS) Data Channel Specification";
>=20
>    o  reference: RFC XXXX
>=20
>    Please update these statements with the RFC number to be assigned to
>    the following document:
>=20
>    o  "RFC ZZZZ: Network Access Control List (ACL) YANG Data Model"
>       (used to be [I-D.ietf-netmod-acl-model])
>    Please update the "revision" date of the YANG module.
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dots-data-channel/
>=20
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-data-channel-25
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-dots-data-channel-25
>=20
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-dots-data-channel-25
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss=
ion
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Dots mailing list
> Dots@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots


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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Takahiko Nagata <nagata@lepidum.co.jp>, "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dots] Comments on dots-signal-control-filtering-01
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Subject: Re: [Dots] Comments on dots-signal-control-filtering-01
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Hi Takahiko,=20

Thank you for sharing the comments.=20

Please see inline.

Cheers,
Med

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De=A0: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Takahiko Nagata
> Envoy=E9=A0: jeudi 17 janvier 2019 08:13
> =C0=A0: dots@ietf.org
> Objet=A0: [Dots] Comments on dots-signal-control-filtering-01
>=20
> Hi Kaname,
>=20
> I would like to 2 comments on dots-signal-control-filtering-01.
>=20
> (Comment1) Minimal attributes for control-filtering. ("lifetime" behavior=
)
>   Minimal attributes of SignalChannel MitigationRequest
>   for control-filtering is only the followings, I think.
>   - acl-list(acl-name, activation-type)
>   - lifetime
>=20
>   So, We can send acl-list via SignalChannel without
>   other Mitigation request parameters.

[Med] When the same mid is used, the request is considered as a refresh. As=
 such the attributes that were included in the first request must be includ=
ed. =20

>=20
>   In this case, we need to decide behavior of "lifetime".
>   I think "lifetime" is ignored in this case.

[Med] No. This is a particular case of this text from the signal channel sp=
ec:

   For a mitigation request to continue beyond the initial negotiated
   lifetime, the DOTS client has to refresh the current mitigation
   request by sending a new PUT request.  This PUT request MUST use the
   same 'mid' value, and MUST repeat all the other parameters as sent in
   the original mitigation request apart from a possible change to the
   lifetime parameter value.

>   Because acl-list(acl-name, activation-type) should be
>   managed only DataChannel side for specification simply.
>=20
>=20
> (Comment2) Should be specified behavior.
> (a) Not be affected by "trigger-mitigation"
>   acl-list(acl-name, activation-type) is soon be applied
>   even if "trigger-mitigation" is false.

[Med] The procedure applies independently of the value of "trigger-mitigati=
on". We can say this explicitly on the draft.

>=20
> (b) Do not affect to "Efficacy Update"
>   acl-list(acl-name, activation-type) would be ignored
>   at "Efficacy Update" success or reject.

[Med] Agree. We are not updating that part of the signal channel spec. acl-=
list clauses won't be included in the efficacy update.=20

>=20
> (c) GET response of Mitigation Request
>   acl-list(acl-name, activation-type) would not be included
>   on respose of GET Mitigation Request.

[Med] Yes. Will be make this clear in the draft.

>=20
> (d) In DELETE, no behavior(ex: rollback) for acl-list.

[Med] Yes.=20

>=20
>=20
> Best Regards,
> Takahiko Nagata
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Dots mailing list
> Dots@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots


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From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>
To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "Takahiko Nagata" <nagata@lepidum.co.jp>, "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Dots] Comments on dots-signal-control-filtering-01
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>, "Takahiko Nagata" <nagata@lepidum.co.jp>, "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dots] Comments on dots-signal-control-filtering-01
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Subject: Re: [Dots] Comments on dots-signal-control-filtering-01
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>, "Takahiko Nagata" <nagata@lepidum.co.jp>, "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dots] Comments on dots-signal-control-filtering-01
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From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>
To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "Takahiko Nagata" <nagata@lepidum.co.jp>, "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
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Subject: [Dots] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-27.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the DDoS Open Threat Signaling WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) Signal Channel Specification
        Authors         : Tirumaleswar Reddy
                          Mohamed Boucadair
                          Prashanth Patil
                          Andrew Mortensen
                          Nik Teague
	Filename        : draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-27.txt
	Pages           : 98
	Date            : 2019-01-18

Abstract:
   This document specifies the DOTS signal channel, a protocol for
   signaling the need for protection against Distributed Denial-of-
   Service (DDoS) attacks to a server capable of enabling network
   traffic mitigation on behalf of the requesting client.

   A companion document defines the DOTS data channel, a separate
   reliable communication layer for DOTS management and configuration
   purposes.

Editorial Note (To be removed by RFC Editor)

   Please update these statements within the document with the RFC
   number to be assigned to this document:

   o  "This version of this YANG module is part of RFC XXXX;"

   o  "RFC XXXX: Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling
      (DOTS) Signal Channel Specification";

   o  "| [RFCXXXX] |"

   o  reference: RFC XXXX

   Please update this statement with the RFC number to be assigned to
   the following documents:

   o  "RFC YYYY: Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling
      (DOTS) Data Channel Specification (used to be
      [I-D.ietf-dots-data-channel])

   Please update TBD/TBD1/TBD2 statements with the assignments made by
   IANA to DOTS Signal Channel Protocol.

   Also, please update the "revision" date of the YANG modules.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-27
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-27

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-27


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Fri Jan 18 06:54:54 2019
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: "Benjamin Kaduk (kaduk@mit.edu)" <kaduk@mit.edu>
CC: "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-27.txt (AD Review)
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Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2019 14:54:46 +0000
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Subject: [Dots] TR: I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-27.txt (AD Review)
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Hi Ben,=20

I'm pleased to share this -27 version which takes into account your AD revi=
ew. You can check the diff to track the changes.

Thank you again for the detailed review.=20

Cheers,
Med

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De=A0: I-D-Announce [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de
> internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 18 janvier 2019 15:50
> =C0=A0: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Cc=A0: dots@ietf.org
> Objet=A0: I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-27.txt
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
> This draft is a work item of the DDoS Open Threat Signaling WG of the IET=
F.
>=20
>         Title           : Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signa=
ling
> (DOTS) Signal Channel Specification
>         Authors         : Tirumaleswar Reddy
>                           Mohamed Boucadair
>                           Prashanth Patil
>                           Andrew Mortensen
>                           Nik Teague
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-27.txt
> 	Pages           : 98
> 	Date            : 2019-01-18
>=20
> Abstract:
>    This document specifies the DOTS signal channel, a protocol for
>    signaling the need for protection against Distributed Denial-of-
>    Service (DDoS) attacks to a server capable of enabling network
>    traffic mitigation on behalf of the requesting client.
>=20
>    A companion document defines the DOTS data channel, a separate
>    reliable communication layer for DOTS management and configuration
>    purposes.
>=20
> Editorial Note (To be removed by RFC Editor)
>=20
>    Please update these statements within the document with the RFC
>    number to be assigned to this document:
>=20
>    o  "This version of this YANG module is part of RFC XXXX;"
>=20
>    o  "RFC XXXX: Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling
>       (DOTS) Signal Channel Specification";
>=20
>    o  "| [RFCXXXX] |"
>=20
>    o  reference: RFC XXXX
>=20
>    Please update this statement with the RFC number to be assigned to
>    the following documents:
>=20
>    o  "RFC YYYY: Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling
>       (DOTS) Data Channel Specification (used to be
>       [I-D.ietf-dots-data-channel])
>=20
>    Please update TBD/TBD1/TBD2 statements with the assignments made by
>    IANA to DOTS Signal Channel Protocol.
>=20
>    Also, please update the "revision" date of the YANG modules.
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel/
>=20
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-27
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-27
>=20
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-27
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss=
ion
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> I-D-Announce mailing list
> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt


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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>, "Takahiko Nagata" <nagata@lepidum.co.jp>, "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dots] Comments on dots-signal-control-filtering-01
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References: <e508fc49-fe2f-8160-8f0b-cba1868be738@lepidum.co.jp> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EA09E84@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <BYAPR16MB2790ED34736AB959C030CD94EA9C0@BYAPR16MB2790.namprd16.prod.outlook.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EA09EC9@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <BYAPR16MB2790AB6791398A387B1B1280EA9C0@BYAPR16MB2790.namprd16.prod.outlook.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EA09FB4@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <BYAPR16MB27900D89516C1322CBD734BEEA9C0@BYAPR16MB2790.namprd16.prod.outlook.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dots/YKFI68SgtiaWgGCvsISpObNRhNs>
Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (1st Part)
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On Thu, Jan 17, 2019 at 09:33:23AM +0000, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Dots <dots-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of
> > mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
> > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2019 1:16 PM
> > To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>;
> > Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>; draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org
> > Cc: dots@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (1st Part)
> > 
> > This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or
> > open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is
> > safe.
> > 
> > Re-,
> > 
> > OK.
> > 
> > Given that we don't have an explicit mention about this in 8305, I added this
> > NEW sentence echoing what was in 6555:
> > 
> >    Note that the DOTS client must cache information regarding the
> >    outcome of each connection attempt, and it uses that information to
> >    avoid thrashing the network with subsequent attempts.
> 
> Minor change:
> 
> Note that the DOTS client must cache information regarding the
> outcome of each connection attempt for a specific time period (e.g. 10 minutes), and it uses that information to
> avoid thrashing the network with subsequent attempts.

We'll probably get somebody asking why it's not  a "MUST", but that's not
enough to hold up the IETF LC.

-Ben


From nobody Fri Jan 18 12:01:14 2019
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Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2019 14:00:53 -0600
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
CC: "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org>, "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dots/QG5VOsUZe6icBsjeJsq73W7Rfa8>
Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (4th Part)
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On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 03:29:45PM +0000, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
> Re-,
> 
> Please see inline.
> 
> Cheers,
> Med
> 
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : Benjamin Kaduk [mailto:kaduk@mit.edu]
> > Envoyé : mercredi 16 janvier 2019 01:14
> > À : draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org
> > Cc : dots@ietf.org
> > Objet : AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25
> > 
> > 
> > Section 4.4.3
> > 
> > I'm not questioning the decision, but I am a bit curious how we ended up
> > with a boolean "attack-status" parameter and no quantitative
> > measurements.
> > 
> 
> [Med] This is not a Boolean. The attack-status reflects the status as observed by the client. Actually, we restricted the information to the minimum information that can be reported by the client without leaking privacy/local information that may be subject to local policies at the client domain. 
> 
> >    The DOTS server indicates the result of processing a PUT request
> >    using CoAP response codes.  The response code 2.04 (Changed) is
> >    returned if the DOTS server has accepted the mitigation efficacy
> >    update.  The error response code 5.03 (Service Unavailable) is
> >    returned if the DOTS server has erred or is incapable of performing
> >    the mitigation.
> > 
> > What (if anythin) should the client do in response?  Should the client
> > assume the server is dead and move to a different one?
> 
> [Med] 5.03 uses Max-Age option to indicate when to retry. This is discussed in RFC7252. I can update the text if you think this is helpful to remind this. 
> 
> > 
> > Section 4.4.4
> > 
> >    terminating period SHOULD be set by default to 120 seconds.  If the
> >    client requests mitigation again before the initial active-but-
> >    terminating period elapses, the DOTS server MAY exponentially
> >    increase the active-but-terminating period up to a maximum of 300
> >    seconds (5 minutes).
> > 
> > Is the base of the exponent supposed to be 2 (i.e., a doubling of the
> > delay)?  This should probably be made explicit.
> 
> [Med] Done. Thanks.
> 
>   Also, is the input to
> > the doubling the previous total delay, or the amount of delay remaining
> > when the repeated request arrives?
> 
> [Med] The server sets active-but-terminating, then if it receives a request before that timer expires, it doubles the active-but-terminating and so on. The server repeats this process at most for 5 minutes.  
> 
> > 
> >    If a mitigation is triggered due to a signal channel loss, the DOTS
> >    server relies upon normal triggers to stop that mitigation
> >    (typically, receipt of a valid DELETE request, expiry of the
> >    mitigation lifetime, or observation of traffic to the attack target).
> > 
> > I think "observation of traffic" probably needs more explanation -- as
> > written, it sounds like any packet arriving would be sufficient, which
> > is probably not the intended behavior...
> 
> [Med] We meant "inspecting the traffic", but avoided to use the word because this term is not well perceived.  
> 
> I can update the text If you are OK with "inspecting". 

I would be, but Tiru's note about "scrubbing" is better.

> > 
> > Section 4.5.1
> > 
> > Does the "max-retransmit" value exclude the initial transmission?
> 
> [Med] Yes.
> 
> > 
> > I'm not sure whether there are any particularly interesting security
> > considerations to mention about what happens when ack-random-factor is
> > insufficiently random; it seems like things would only get really bad if
> > the value was constant across peers.
> > 
> 
> [Med] A brief discussion on this change's impact can be found in Section 4.8.1 of RFC7252. 
> 
> > Section 4.5.2
> > 
> >                                                  A DOTS client MUST NOT
> >    transmit a "CoAP Ping" while waiting for the previous "CoAP Ping"
> >    response from the same DOTS server.
> > 
> > Is this intended to block retransmissions of the same CoAP Ping?
> 
> [Med] This is intended to block retransmission before the retransmission timeout expires.  
> 
> 
> > 
> >    sid:  Session Identifier is an identifier for the DOTS signal channel
> >       session configuration data represented as an integer.  This
> >       identifier MUST be generated by DOTS clients.  'sid' values MUST
> >       increase monotonically.
> > 
> > What event triggers the increase?
> 
> [Med] Send a PUT request for configuration purpose.   
> 
> > 
> > Section 4.5.3
> > 
> >                                        When a DDoS attack is active,
> >    refresh requests MUST NOT be sent by DOTS clients and the DOTS server
> >    MUST NOT terminate the (D)TLS session after the expiry of the value
> >    returned in Max-Age Option.
> > 
> > It seems like there's a bit of a race condition with attacks and refresh
> > requests coming in in parallel.
> > 
> 
> [Med] Is there any change that you see to the text? 

I don't think so -- it's only an issue if the server decides to enforce the
"refresh requests MUST NOT be sent", but we don't say anything to indicate
that it should do such enforcement.

> > Section  4.6
> > 
> >    The DOTS server can return the error response code 5.03 in response
> >    to a request from the DOTS client or convey the error response code
> >    5.03 in a unidirectional notification response from the DOTS server.
> > 
> > Just to check my understanding, this unidirectional notification would
> > only happen if there was a previous Observe to establish the channel?
> 
> [Med] Yes.
> 
> > 
> > The "alt-server-record" description here is pretty vague on the string
> > formatting used, v4 vs. v6, etc.;
> 
> [Med] "IP addresses" is used on purpose to refer to both IPv4 and IPv6 addresses.
> 
>  I guess that the actual "type
> > inet:ip-address" in the YANG module is probably specific enough, though.
> > 
> 
> [Med] Yes, indeed.
> 
> 
> > Section 4.7
> > 
> > The first two paragraphs seem to have high overlap and would probably
> > benefit from at least being joined together if not also trimmed down a
> > bit.
> 
> [Med] Joined together in the my local copy with the 2nd para which starts now with "Concretely, ".
> 
> > 
> >    In case of a massive DDoS attack that saturates the incoming link(s)
> >    to the DOTS client, all traffic from the DOTS server to the DOTS
> >    client will likely be dropped, although the DOTS server receives
> >    heartbeat requests in addition to DOTS messages sent by the DOTS
> >    client.  In this scenario, the DOTS agents MUST behave differently to
> >    handle message transmission and DOTS session liveliness during link
> >    saturation:
> > 
> > Do we need to say how the agents independently detect the
> > link-saturation situation?
> > 
> 
> [Med] When the agents are aware that an attack is ongoing, they will infer links are likely to be saturated.

Okay.

> > Section 5.1
> > 
> > It looks like the tree diagram and the module differ about the
> > "mandatory false" nature of some nodes, e.g., upper-port.  Perhaps the
> > tree diagram should be regenerated?
> > 
> 
> [Med] Will double check.
> 
> > Section 5.2
> > 
> > I mostly expect some heartburn from various folks about overriding
> > protocol number 0's interpretation as the IPv6 hop-by-hop option to mean
> > "all protocols", though it will probably be fine in practice.  I am
> > including a suggested rewording in my editorial changes that may help
> > alleviate concerns.
> 
> [Med] Good catch. We can fix this by updating the text to:
> 
> "If 'target-protocol' is not specified, then the request applies to any protocol."
> 
> Will also check your proposal. Thanks.
> 
> > 
> > Section 6
> > 
> > I have several thoughts about the CBOR encoding, some of which I
> > mentioned in some previous emails.  (I also don't have much experience
> > with CBOR encoding, so I probably have some things wrong, too...)
> > 
> > It seems that CBOR major type 0 also encodes some width information for
> > integers.  Do we want to require that the CBOR encoding always uses the
> > width that matches the types in the YANG module, or do we permit a
> > smaller encoding when the value in question fits?  (Presumably the
> > answer falls out naturally if we expect people to use off-the-shelf CBOR
> > libraries...)
> > 
> > We say that the initial set of key values is comprehension-required;
> > does that mean that any other future extensions are necessarily
> > comprehension-optional, and there can be no additional
> > comprehension-required keys?
> 
> [Med] Future extensions can be either comprehension-required or comprehension-optional. This will depend on each use case. 
> 
> > 
> > It's probably appropriate to make a statement in the initial text here
> > about the port number and/or media type indicating that this is the
> > syntax used for the top-level object.
> > 
> > I already mentioned that the encoding of the integer form of the key
> > values takes a different number of bytes depending on the integer value,
> > so I think those keys are rearranged in the -26 (I reviewed the -25).
> 
> [Med] I guess Tiru has already addressed that comment. 
> 
> > 
> > Section 7.1
> > 
> >    A key challenge to deploying DOTS is the provisioning of DOTS
> >    clients, including the distribution of keying material to DOTS
> >    clients to enable the required mutual authentication of DOTS agents.
> >    EST defines a method of certificate enrollment by which domains
> > 
> > I think we need a reference for EST.
> 
> [Med] Done. Thanks.
> 
> > 
> >    o  TLS False Start [RFC7918] which reduces round-trips by allowing
> >       the TLS second flight of messages (ChangeCipherSpec) to also
> >       contain the DOTS signal.
> > [...]
> >    o  TCP Fast Open [RFC7413] can reduce the number of round-trips to
> >       convey DOTS signal channel message.
> > 
> > These are in something of a specification limbo, as they both appear to
> > only be formally defined for use with TLS, but TLS False Start seems to
> > have a straightforward extension to DTLS.  It may be worth tweaking the
> > text a little to acknowledge the situation here.
> 
> [Med] Can you please indicate which tweaking do you have in mind? 
> 
> TFO allows to send data in the SYN without waiting for the completion of the 3WHS. Obviously, such delay is specific to TCP. 

My suggestions, which you can tweak or ignore as you like while waiting for
IETF LC review:

"TLS False Start is formally defined for use with DTLS, but the same
techniques are applicable to DTLS as well."

"Being TCP-specific, TCP Fast Open is only suitable for TLS and not DTLS."

-Ben


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Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2019 15:02:58 -0600
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dots/O6bR4gcy4_a4m7-uJ52EWhZaQG0>
Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (5th Part)
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Hi all,

Thanks for all the edits and the published -27.
Assuming I'm actually caught up on all the review/response threads, I think
we're pretty close to being able to go to IETF LC -- here's what I see as
still left:

- We need to settle the risk of needing normative downrefs called out for
  the last call
- I just noticed while reviewing the diff that we also need to say a
  little more about (D)TLS 1.3 0-RTT data (more below)
- It looks like we lost the guidance to the Experts and text about the
  review mailing list from the IANA Considerations, during the reshuffling
  around having IANA manage more things

Regarding the (D)TLS 1.3 0-RTT data, RFC 8446 notes that "Application
protocols MUST NOT use 0-RTT data without a profile that defines its use.
That profile needs to identify which messages or interactions are safe to
use with 0-RTT and how to handle the situation when the server rejects
0-RTT and falls back to 1-RTT."  So we either need to say which client
requests are 0-RTT safe (and why) or defer that profile to another
document.  draft-ietf-dnsop-session-signal is perhaps an example of a
document that specifies which messages are/aren't allowed in early data.
(draft-ietf-acme-acme is another, but an uninteresting one, since they make
every request include a single-use nonce, and all messages are 0-RTT safe.)
Our use of increasing 'mid' values may help here, in terms of allowing
DELETEs to be safe, but I'd have to think a little more to be sure that
requesting mitigation would be safe.  (On first glance the
session-managemnet bits would not be safe, but I may be missing something.)

Further notes inline.

On Thu, Jan 17, 2019 at 06:51:04AM +0000, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
> Hi Ben,
> 
> Please see inline.
> 
> Cheers,
> Med
> 
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : Benjamin Kaduk [mailto:kaduk@mit.edu]
> > Envoyé : mercredi 16 janvier 2019 01:14
> > À : draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org
> > Cc : dots@ietf.org
> > Objet : AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25
> > 
> > Section 7.2
> > 
> > The TLS 1.3 handshake with 0-RTT diagram needs to be
> > revisited/refreshed, as RFC 8446 does not look like that.  Additionally,
> > the usage of PSK as well as a certificate is not defined until
> > draft-housley-tls-tls13-cert-with-extern-psk is published.
> > I also note that in the diagram as presented, the client is not yet
> > known to be authenticated when the server sends its initial (0.5-RTT)
> > DOTS signal message.
> > 
> 
> [Med] Noted. Thanks.
> 
> > Section 7.3
> > 
> > This whole section seems to only be relevant for UDP usage, so probably
> > the "If UDP is used" clause can be dropped and an introductory statement
> > added earlier on.
> 
> [Med] Will consider that. 
> 
> > 
> >                               Path MTU MUST be greater than or equal to
> >    [CoAP message size + DTLS overhead of 13 octets + authentication
> >    overhead of the negotiated DTLS cipher suite + block padding]
> >    (Section 4.1.1.1 of [RFC6347]).  If the request size exceeds the path
> >    MTU then the DOTS client MUST split the DOTS signal into separate
> >    messages, for example the list of addresses in the 'target-prefix'
> >    parameter could be split into multiple lists and each list conveyed
> >    in a new PUT request.
> > 
> > (DTLS 1.3 will have a short header for some packets, that is less than
> > 13 octets.)
> 
> [Med] The text is more about 1.2. We can add a 1.3 note if you think it is useful for the discussion. 
> 
> > 
> > Section 8
> > 
> > We've got some requirements in here about limiting behavior of
> > clients/servers when talking to gateways; is knowing about the presence
> > of a gateway something that's required to happen out of band or is there
> > an in-band way to identify that the peer is a gateway?
> 
> [Med] An agent does not necessary know that it peer is gateway. A gateway is seen as a server for the client, and a client for a server. 
> 
> > 
> >    messages from an authorized DOTS gateway, thereby creating a two-link
> >    chain of transitive authentication between the DOTS client and the
> >    DOTS server.
> > 
> > This seems to ignore the possibility of setups that include both
> > client-domain and server-domain gateways.
> 
> [Med] I updated the text to mention this is only an example. 
> 
> > 
> >                  DOTS client certificate validation MUST be performed as
> >    per [RFC5280] and the DOTS client certificate MUST conform to the
> >    [RFC5280] certificate profile.  [...]
> > 
> > This seems to duplicate a requirement already stated in Section 7.1;
> > it's probably best to only have normative language in one location, even
> > if we need to mention the topic in multiple locations.
> > Similarly for the mutual authentication requirement, which we duplicate
> > in the second and fourth paragraphs of this section.
> 
> [Med] Good point. Fixed. 
> 
> > 
> > If we don't want to use example.com vs. example.net as sample domains,
> > we can also use whateverwewant.example, per RFC 6761.
> 
> [Med] Will maintain the ones already in the draft. Thanks. 
> 
> > 
> > Section 9
> > 
> > We should mention the media-type allocation in the top-level section.
> 
> [Med] Will fix that.  
> 
> > 
> > "mappings to CBOR" feels confusing to me, since it leaves empty what we
> > are mapping from.  Perhaps just talking about a registry of "CBOR map
> > keys" would be better, both here and in the Section 9.3 intro.
> > 
> 
> [Med] Unless there is an objection, I can use "CBOR Map Keys".
> 
> > Section 9.3
> > 
> > I suggest being very explicit about whether new requests for
> > registration should be directed to the mailing list or to IANA, as we've
> > had some confusion about this elsewhere.
> > 
> > The criteria used by the experts also just lists things they should
> > consider, but does not provide full clarity on which answer to the
> > question is more likely to be approved.  (And yes, I know that this text
> > is largely copied from already published RFCs, but we can still do
> > better.)
> 
> [Med] Will check this. 
> 
> > 
> > Section 9.3.1
> > 
> > If we want the value 0 to be reserved we need to say so.
> 
> [Med] 0 is not part of the allocation range. 
> 
> > Do we want to say anything about the usage of negative integers as map
> > keys?
> > 
> > I suggest not mentioning the postal address, given the recent (e.g.)
> > GDPR requirements.
> 
> [Med] Good point. Done. 
> 
> > 
> > Section 9.3.2
> > 
> > It may be worth mentioning Table 4 here as well.
> 
> [Med] OK. 
> 
> > 
> > Section 9.5.1
> > 
> > We need to specify which range of values we are asking for an allocation
> > from.
> 
> [Med] Added a mention to 0-255 range. 
> 
> > 
> > Section 9.6.1
> > 
> > As above, specify what range we're asking about.
> 
> [Med] OK.
> 
> > 
> > I expect the current text to get some IESG (or directorate) feedback
> > that the Data Item and Semantics descriptions are repetitive and banal.
> > 
> > Section 9.7
> > 
> > IIUC, IANA is going to ask if we want this module to be "maintained by
> > IANA", so it would be good to have an answer ready even if we don't put
> > it in the document text.
> 
> [Med] This is discussed in -26.
> 
> > 
> >    Rate-limiting DOTS requests, including those with new 'cuid' values,
> >    from the same DOTS client defends against DoS attacks that would
> > 
> > With respect to "new" 'cuid' values, is the server required to remember
> > which ones it has seen in perpetuity, or can it time them out
> > eventually?
> 
> [Med] The attack vector is a DOTS client which changes frequently its cuid. The DOTS server can set an interval in which the same client cannot present a new cuid.
> 
> > 
> > Section 10
> > 
> > The security considerations seem to be taking a narrow focus on the
> > requirements for and consequences of specific bits on the wire in the
> > signal channel protocol.  I think it's appropriate to also include some
> > high-level thoughts about the functional behavior of the protocol,
> > allowing to signal that an attack is underway and trigger mitigation,
> > increasing the availability of services, etc., and the risks that are
> > posed by the protocol failing to work properly, whether that means
> > letting attack traffic through or improperly blocking legitimate
> > traffic.
> 
> [Med] Would a pointer to the architecture/requirements I-Ds be sufficient to cover to high-level aspects?

Those documents' security considerations do seem to cover the relevant
points, yes.

> > 
> > Section 13.1
> > 
> > I think the IANA registries should be listed as Informational and not
> > Normative references.
> > 
> 
> [Med] Done. 
> 
> > Section 13.2
> > 
> > Pending resolution of the question about using draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor
> > rules or RFC7951+RFC7049, the draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor reference may
> > need to be Normative.
> 
> [Med] Please refer to my answer to that question. draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor is informative. 
> 
> > 
> > Given that "URI" is a well-known abbreviation, we may be able to get
> > away with not citing RFC 3986.  On the other hand, it's not causing any
> > harm to leave it in...
> 
> [Med] Will leave it. 
> 
> > 
> > RFC 4632 needs to be Normative, since we need to know CIDR to
> > encode/decode target-prefixes.
> 
> [Med] Works for me. 
> 
> > 
> > Similarly, I think that RFCs 6234
> 
> [Med] This one is not listed as normative because other hash algos may be used. 

It's a lower-case "recommended", which can probably eke by as descriptive
and not a "protocol feature" (see below).

> , 7413
> [Med] The support if TFO is not mandatory.  

It's a SHOULD ("SHOULD implement all of the following items"), though...

> , 7589
> [Med] This is a MAY in the spec. It is just fine to leave it as informative. 

...per
https://www.ietf.org/blog/iesg-statement-normative-and-informative-references/
note 1, "Even references that are relevant only for optional features must
be classified as normative if they meet the above conditions for normative
references."

This does seem to be something we actually need to care about before IETF
LC, though, as 7413 is Experimental and not listed in the downref registry
(https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/downref/), so if we leave it as
Informational and have to change it later, we'd need to also restart/re-run
the IETF LC.

> , 7918
> [Med] Idem as TFO. 

This is Informational (i.e., also susceptible to the downref issue).

> , 7924
> [Med] Idem as TFO.  

(idem x2), though this is standards-track at least, so we have more leeway
to move things around later.



I think the most expedient thing to do here would just be to relax the
requirement for TLS Falst STart, TFO, and Cached Information, perhaps to
text like "The following items are additional mechanisms that can reduce
the delay required to deliver a DOTS signal channel message, which
implementations are encouraged to implement as possible.", but I am open to
other suggestions for what to do.


> , and 7951
> [Med] this one was not listed as normative because the document lists two ways to do the mapping.  

Agreed.

-Ben

> > should also be Normative.
> > 
> > 
> > -Ben
> 


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From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>
To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
CC: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org>, "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (1st Part)
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2019 1:12 AM
> To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>
> Cc: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org=
;
> dots@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (1st Part)
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Thu, Jan 17, 2019 at 09:33:23AM +0000, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote=
:
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Dots <dots-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of
> > > mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
> > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2019 1:16 PM
> > > To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
> <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>;
> > > Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>;
> > > draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org
> > > Cc: dots@ietf.org
> > > Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25
> > > (1st Part)
> > >
> > > This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click
> > > links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know
> > > the content is safe.
> > >
> > > Re-,
> > >
> > > OK.
> > >
> > > Given that we don't have an explicit mention about this in 8305, I
> > > added this NEW sentence echoing what was in 6555:
> > >
> > >    Note that the DOTS client must cache information regarding the
> > >    outcome of each connection attempt, and it uses that information t=
o
> > >    avoid thrashing the network with subsequent attempts.
> >
> > Minor change:
> >
> > Note that the DOTS client must cache information regarding the outcome
> > of each connection attempt for a specific time period (e.g. 10
> > minutes), and it uses that information to avoid thrashing the network w=
ith
> subsequent attempts.
>=20
> We'll probably get somebody asking why it's not  a "MUST", but that's not
> enough to hold up the IETF LC.

Yes, will fix.

-Tiru

>=20
> -Ben


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From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>
To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
CC: "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org>, "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (5th Part)
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dots/yPDNZldDVLLYRqsMqDLrUQwQfww>
Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (5th Part)
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From nobody Sun Jan 20 23:31:35 2019
Return-Path: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>, "Benjamin Kaduk" <kaduk@mit.edu>
CC: "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org>, "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (5th Part)
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Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (5th Part)
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From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>
To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "Takahiko Nagata" <nagata@lepidum.co.jp>, "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
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From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>
To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "Benjamin Kaduk" <kaduk@mit.edu>
CC: "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org>, "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (5th Part)
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>, "Benjamin Kaduk" <kaduk@mit.edu>
CC: "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org>, "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (5th Part)
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Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (5th Part)
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From nobody Mon Jan 21 06:13:23 2019
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: "Panwei (William)" <william.panwei@huawei.com>, "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Wei Pan's comments-2nd part (RE: Call for adoption on draft-boucadair-dots-multihoming)
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Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 14:13:15 +0000
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Subject: [Dots] Wei Pan's comments-2nd part (RE: Call for adoption on draft-boucadair-dots-multihoming)
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Hi Wei,

Please see inline.

Cheers,
Med

De : Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Panwei (William)
Envoy=E9 : mercredi 26 d=E9cembre 2018 11:17
=C0 : dots@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [Dots] Call for adoption on draft-boucadair-dots-multihoming


4.      In section 5.2, in the case of figure 7, it describes some complica=
tions will arise if PA addresses/prefixes are used. Although the draft says=
 these complications are not specific to DOTS, but it doesn't clarify what =
should DOTS do to handle these complications.



[Med] This is covered by this text:



"Each DOTS client is provided with policies (e.g., prefix filter) that will=
 trigger DOTS communications with the DOTS servers."



I rearranged the text so that this statement is easily associated with both=
 figures (7/8).



5.      Different descriptions of PI addresses/prefixes are as followings:

The case of figure 6 describes:
Nevertheless, when PI addresses/prefixes are assigned, the DOTS
gateway MUST sent the same request to all its DOTS servers.

The case of figure 7 describes:
If PI addresses/prefixes are in use, the DOTS client can send the
mitigation request for all its PI addresses/prefixes to any one of
the DOTS servers. The use of anycast addresses is NOT RECOMMENDED.

The case of figure 9 describes:
When PI addresses/prefixes are used, DOTS clients can contact any of
the DOTS gateways to send a DOTS message. DOTS gateway will then
relay the request to the DOTS server.

I don't get the reason why the mitigation request need to be sent to all DO=
TS servers in the case of figure 6 but only to one of the DOTS servers in t=
he cases of figure 7 and figure 9. I don't figure out the need of such diff=
erences.

[Med] Good catch. The correct behavior is the one described for Figure 6. I=
 updated the text for figures 7/9.



6.      About the anycast addresses:

6.1.      There are several places in the draft saying that the use of anyc=
ast addresses is NOT RECOMMENDED, but  the reason isn't clarified. So I get=
 confused why anycast is problematic in these cases.

For example, the cases of figure 7 and figure 9 describe that when PI addre=
sses/prefixes are used the DOTS client can send request to any one of the D=
OTS servers/DOTS gateways, using anycast addresses can achieve this more ea=
sily but it is not recommended.

[Med] This is problematic because the requests won't be received by all GWs=
.



6.2.      Does it imply that the use of anycast addresses for DOTS servers =
is appropriate for those cases which don't say "anycast is not recommended"=
? Because not all cases describe the use of anycast addresses for DOTS serv=
ers.

For example, in the case of figure 6, it doesn't mention the anycast addres=
ses for DOTS servers, can the anycast addresses for DOTS servers be used?



[Med] Will add a note about this.



7.      In section 5.3, in the case of figure 9, it describes:
When PA addresses/prefixes are used, but no filter rules are provided
to DOTS clients, these later MUST contact all DOTS gateways
simultaneously to send a DOTS message. Upon receipt of a request by
a DOTS gateway, it MUST check whether the request is to be forwarded
upstream or be rejected.

It doesn't clarify the rule that the DOTS gateway should be according to. I=
n which condition should the DOTS gateway forward the request or reject the=
 request?



[Med] The check is whether the target IP prefix is managed by the upstream =
server. Will update the text.



Best Regards

Wei Pan





> -----Original Message-----

> From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roman Danyliw

> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2018 6:31 AM

> To: dots@ietf.org

> Subject: [Dots] Call for adoption on draft-boucadair-dots-multihoming

>

> Hello!

>

> This is the start of a two week call for input on the WG adoption of the

> document:

>

> draft-boucadair-dots-multihoming

> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-dots-multihoming-04

>

> The document has been presented and discussed at IETF 103, IETF 100 and

> IETF 99;  and revisions have been made based on WG feedback.  This

> document was created and deferred in the interest of simplifying the

> requirements and architecture drafts now getting ready for publication..

>

> At the IETF 103 meeting, there were not many participants who had read th=
e

> draft.

>

> Please provide feedback to the list/chairs if you believe that this docum=
ent

> should be adopted as a WG document.  The adoption call will end on

> December 14 2018.

>

> Regards,

> Roman and Frank

>

> _______________________________________________

> Dots mailing list

> Dots@ietf.org

> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
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<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:b=
lack">Hi Wei,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:0cm">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:b=
lack"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:0cm">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:b=
lack">Please see inline.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:0cm">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:b=
lack"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:0cm">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:b=
lack">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:0cm">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:b=
lack">Med<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:0cm">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:b=
lack"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
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<div>
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0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Dots=
 [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>De la part de</b> Panwei (William)<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> mercredi 26 d=E9cembre 2018 11:17<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> dots@ietf.org<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dots] Call for adoption on draft-boucadair-dots-mu=
ltihoming<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:0cm">
<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:21.25pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:-=
21.25pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">4.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;">In section 5.2, in the case of figure 7, it describes some=
 complications will arise if PA addresses/prefixes are used. Although the d=
raft says these complications are not specific to DOTS,
 but it doesn&#8217;t clarify what should DOTS do to handle these complicat=
ions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:5.25pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black">[Med] This is covered by this text: &nbsp;<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:5.25pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:5.25pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;">&#8220;Each DOTS client is provided with policies (e.g., prefix fi=
lter) that will trigger DOTS communications with the DOTS servers.&#8221;<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:5.25pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:5.25pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;">I rearranged the text so that this statement is easily associated =
with both figures (7/8).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:21.25pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:-=
21.25pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">5.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;">Different descriptions of PI addresses/prefixes are as fol=
lowings:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:21.3pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">The case of figure 6 describes:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">Nevertheless, when PI ad=
dresses/prefixes are assigned, the DOTS<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">gateway MUST sent the sa=
me request to all its DOTS servers.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:21.3pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">The case of figure 7 describes:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">If PI addresses/prefixes=
 are in use, the DOTS client can send the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">mitigation request for a=
ll its PI addresses/prefixes to any one of<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">the DOTS servers. The us=
e of anycast addresses is NOT RECOMMENDED.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:21.3pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">The case of figure 9 describes:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">When PI addresses/prefix=
es are used, DOTS clients can contact any of<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">the DOTS gateways to sen=
d a DOTS message. DOTS gateway will then<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">relay the request to the=
 DOTS server.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:21.3pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">I don&#8217;t get the reason why the mitigation request need to b=
e sent to all DOTS servers in the case of figure 6 but only to one of the D=
OTS servers in the cases of figure 7 and figure 9. I don&#8217;t figure
 out the need of such differences.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">[=
Med] Good catch. The correct behavior is the one described for Figure 6. I =
updated the text for figures 7/9.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:21.25pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:-=
21.25pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">6.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;">About the anycast addresses:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:49.65pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:-=
1.0cm">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">6.1.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;">There are several places in the draft saying that the use =
of anycast addresses is NOT RECOMMENDED, but&nbsp; the reason isn&#8217;t c=
larified. So I get confused why anycast is problematic in these cases.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:49.65pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">For example, the cases of figure 7 and figure 9 describe that whe=
n PI addresses/prefixes are used the DOTS client can send request to any on=
e of the DOTS servers/DOTS gateways, using anycast addresses
 can achieve this more easily but it is not recommended.<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">[=
Med] This is problematic because the requests won&#8217;t be received by al=
l GWs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:49.65pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:-=
1.0cm">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">6.2.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;">Does it imply that the use of anycast addresses for DOTS s=
ervers is appropriate for those cases which don&#8217;t say &#8220;anycast =
is not recommended&#8221;? Because not all cases describe the use of anycas=
t
 addresses for DOTS servers.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:49.65pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">For example, in the case of figure 6, it doesn&#8217;t mention th=
e anycast addresses for DOTS servers, can the anycast addresses for DOTS se=
rvers be used?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">[=
Med] Will add a note about this.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:21.3pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:-2=
1.25pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">7.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;">In section 5.3, in the case of figure 9, it describes:<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">When PA addresses/prefix=
es are used, but no filter rules are provided<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">to DOTS clients, these l=
ater MUST contact all DOTS gateways<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">simultaneously to send a=
 DOTS message. Upon receipt of a request by<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">a DOTS gateway, it MUST =
check whether the request is to be forwarded<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:3.6pt;margin-left:35.45pt;text-autospace:none">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Courier">upstream or be rejected.=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:3.6pt;margin-right:0c=
m;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:21.3pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">It doesn&#8217;t clarify the rule that the DOTS gateway should be=
 according to. In which condition should the DOTS gateway forward the reque=
st or reject the request?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">=
<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">[=
Med] The check is whether the target IP prefix is managed by the upstream s=
erver. Will update the text.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Best Regards=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Wei Pan<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:&quot;Gadugi&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roman Danyliw<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2018 6:31 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; To: dots@ietf.org<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; Subject: [Dots] Call for adoption on draft-boucadair-dots-multihoming<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; Hello!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; This is the start of a two week call for input on the WG adoption of th=
e<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; document:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; draft-boucadair-dots-multihoming<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-dots-multihoming-04<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; The document has been presented and discussed at IETF 103, IETF 100 and=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; IETF 99;&nbsp; and revisions have been made based on WG feedback.&nbsp;=
 This<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; document was created and deferred in the interest of simplifying the<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; requirements and architecture drafts now getting ready for publication.=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; At the IETF 103 meeting, there were not many participants who had read =
the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; draft.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; Please provide feedback to the list/chairs if you believe that this doc=
ument<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; should be adopted as a WG document.&nbsp; The adoption call will end on=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; December 14 2018.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; Roman and Frank<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; _______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; Dots mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; Dots@ietf.org<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&=
gt; https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EA0AFA3OPEXCAUBMA2corp_--


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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dots/JlbkxgphJKvbEsTcQ5oWh6udTJU>
Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (5th Part)
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From nobody Mon Jan 21 06:32:55 2019
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Subject: [Dots] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-multihoming-01.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the DDoS Open Threat Signaling WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Multi-homing Deployment Considerations for Distributed-Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS)
        Authors         : Mohamed Boucadair
                          Tirumaleswar Reddy
	Filename        : draft-ietf-dots-multihoming-01.txt
	Pages           : 14
	Date            : 2019-01-21

Abstract:
   This document discusses multi-homing considerations for Distributed-
   Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS).  The goal is to
   provide some guidance for DOTS clients/gateways when multihomed.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dots-multihoming/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-multihoming-01
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-dots-multihoming-01

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dots-multihoming-01


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
CC: JACQUENET Christian TGI/OLN <christian.jacquenet@orange.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dots] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-multihoming-01.txt
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Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 14:34:34 +0000
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Subject: [Dots] TR:  I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-multihoming-01.txt
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Hi all,=20

This version integrates comments received from both Christian (cced) and We=
i.=20

Cheers,
Med

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De=A0: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de internet-
> drafts@ietf.org
> Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 21 janvier 2019 15:33
> =C0=A0: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Cc=A0: dots@ietf.org
> Objet=A0: [Dots] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-multihoming-01.txt
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
> This draft is a work item of the DDoS Open Threat Signaling WG of the IET=
F.
>=20
>         Title           : Multi-homing Deployment Considerations for
> Distributed-Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS)
>         Authors         : Mohamed Boucadair
>                           Tirumaleswar Reddy
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-dots-multihoming-01.txt
> 	Pages           : 14
> 	Date            : 2019-01-21
>=20
> Abstract:
>    This document discusses multi-homing considerations for Distributed-
>    Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS).  The goal is to
>    provide some guidance for DOTS clients/gateways when multihomed.
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dots-multihoming/
>=20
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-multihoming-01
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-dots-multihoming-01
>=20
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-dots-multihoming-01
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss=
ion
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Dots mailing list
> Dots@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots


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From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>
To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
CC: JACQUENET Christian TGI/OLN <christian.jacquenet@orange.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dots] TR:  I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-multihoming-01.txt
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Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 14:57:52 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dots] TR:  I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-multihoming-01.txt
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Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 09:06:57 -0600
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@mcafee.com>
CC: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org>, "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (5th Part)
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On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 09:13:10AM +0000, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
> > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2019 1:01 PM
> > To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>;
> > Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
> > Cc: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org; dots@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (5th Part)
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Hi Ben, all,
> > 
> > Please see inline.
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > Med
> > 
> > > -----Message d'origine-----
> > > De : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
> > > [mailto:TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com]
> > > Envoyé : samedi 19 janvier 2019 07:32
> > > À : Benjamin Kaduk; BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN Cc :
> > > draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org; dots@ietf.org Objet : RE:
> > > [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (5th Part)
> > >
> > > Hi Ben,
> > >
> > > Please see inline
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Dots <dots-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Benjamin Kaduk
> > > > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2019 2:33 AM
> > > > To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
> > > > Cc: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org; dots@ietf.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25
> > > > (5th
> > > Part)
> > > >
> > 
> > > > - I just noticed while reviewing the diff that we also need to say a
> > > >   little more about (D)TLS 1.3 0-RTT data (more below)
> > > > - It looks like we lost the guidance to the Experts and text about the
> > > >   review mailing list from the IANA Considerations, during the reshuffling
> > > >   around having IANA manage more things
> > > >
> > 
> > [Med] That was on purpose. We would like to rely on RFC8126 rules for
> > deigned expert reviews.
> 
> In addition to RFC8126 to defend against replay attacks, we can add the following additional rules:
> 
> The DOTS signal channel messages sent as early data by the DOTS client
> are idempotent requests. Further, CoAP (as discussed in Section 4.4 of RFC7252) is capable of performing message deduplication
> to handle replay of CoAP requests.

RFC 8126 is "guidelines for writing an IANA considerations section", a
separate topic from TLS 1.3 O-RTT anti-replay.

I'll try to take a closer look at what the CoAP deduplication provides.
However, I'll note that mere idempotence is not always sufficient to
alleviate replay concerns for 0-RTT data, as we must also consider the
possibilities of reordering with other messages and other side effects.
For example, the GET we use to establish a subscription to server status
messages -- the subscription is a side effect not related directly to the
GET exchange.

In any case, even if we do conclude that we are sufficiently protected, we
still need an explicit statement like "due to the protections afforded by
CoAP deduplication and RFC 8446 anti-replay mechanisms, all DOTS signal
channel messages are safe to transmit in TLS 1.3 0-RTT data".

-Ben


From nobody Mon Jan 21 07:10:41 2019
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Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 09:10:25 -0600
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
CC: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@mcafee.com>, "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org>, "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (5th Part)
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On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 07:31:28AM +0000, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
> Hi Ben, all, 
> 
> Please see inline.
> 
> Cheers,
> Med
> 
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy [mailto:TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com]
> > Envoyé : samedi 19 janvier 2019 07:32
> > À : Benjamin Kaduk; BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN
> > Cc : draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org; dots@ietf.org
> > Objet : RE: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (5th Part)
> > 
> > Hi Ben,
> > 
> > Please see inline
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Dots <dots-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Benjamin Kaduk
> > > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2019 2:33 AM
> > > To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
> > > Cc: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org; dots@ietf.org
> > > Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (5th
> > Part)
> > >
> > > This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links
> > or
> > > open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is
> > safe.
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > Thanks for all the edits and the published -27.
> > > Assuming I'm actually caught up on all the review/response threads, I think
> > > we're pretty close to being able to go to IETF LC -- here's what I see as
> > still left:
> > >
> > > - We need to settle the risk of needing normative downrefs called out for
> > >   the last call
> 
> [Med] I updated the text to:
> * cite 7618/7624 as normative (+ indicate that a similar mechanism to false start may also be defined for DTLS).
> * tweak the TFO text to maintain it as informative. 

Sounds good.

> > > - I just noticed while reviewing the diff that we also need to say a
> > >   little more about (D)TLS 1.3 0-RTT data (more below)
> > > - It looks like we lost the guidance to the Experts and text about the
> > >   review mailing list from the IANA Considerations, during the reshuffling
> > >   around having IANA manage more things
> > >
> 
> [Med] That was on purpose. We would like to rely on RFC8126 rules for deigned expert reviews. 

I'm not sure I understand this -- 8126 explicitly says that documents
should provide guidance to the designated expert on what to look for and
what is grounds for rejecting a request.

> > > Regarding the (D)TLS 1.3 0-RTT data, RFC 8446 notes that "Application
> > > protocols MUST NOT use 0-RTT data without a profile that defines its use.
> > > That profile needs to identify which messages or interactions are safe to
> > use
> > > with 0-RTT and how to handle the situation when the server rejects 0-RTT
> > and
> > > falls back to 1-RTT."  So we either need to say which client requests are
> > 0-RTT
> > > safe (and why) or defer that profile to another document.  draft-ietf-
> > dnsop-
> > > session-signal is perhaps an example of a document that specifies which
> > > messages are/aren't allowed in early data.
> > > (draft-ietf-acme-acme is another, but an uninteresting one, since they make
> > > every request include a single-use nonce, and all messages are 0-RTT safe.)
> > > Our use of increasing 'mid' values may help here, in terms of allowing
> > DELETEs
> > > to be safe, but I'd have to think a little more to be sure that requesting
> > > mitigation would be safe.  (On first glance the session-managemnet bits
> > would
> > > not be safe, but I may be missing something.)
> > 
> > The draft only uses idempotent requests (GET, PUT and DELETE), and CoAP is
> > capable of detecting message duplication (see
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7252#section-4.5) for both confirmable and
> > non-confirmable messages.
> >  [1] An attacker replaying DELETE will not have any adverse impact, 2.02
> > (Deleted) Response Code is returned even if the mitigation request does not
> > exist.
> > [2] The techniques discussed in Section 8 of RFC8446 should suffice to handle
> > anti-replay (e.g. an attacker replaying a 0-RTT data carrying an old
> > mitigation request replaced by a new mitigation scope).
> > 
> 
> [Med] FWIW, we do already have this text in the draft: 
> 
>       Section 8 of [RFC8446] discusses some mechanisms to implement to
>       limit the impact of replay attacks on 0-RTT data.  If the DOTS
>       server accepts 0-RTT, it MUST implement one of these mechanisms.
>       A DOTS server can reject 0-RTT by sending a TLS HelloRetryRequest.

(As I noted in my reply to Tiru, we need a more explicit statement.)

-Ben


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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
CC: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@mcafee.com>, "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org>, "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (5th Part)
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Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 15:37:38 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (5th Part)
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Re-,

Please see inline.=20

Cheers,
Med

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De=A0: Benjamin Kaduk [mailto:kaduk@mit.edu]
> Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 21 janvier 2019 16:10
> =C0=A0: BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN
> Cc=A0: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy; draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org=
;
> dots@ietf.org
> Objet=A0: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (5th =
Part)
>=20
> On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 07:31:28AM +0000, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wr=
ote:
> > Hi Ben, all,
> >
> > Please see inline.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Med
> >
> > > -----Message d'origine-----
> > > De=A0: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
> [mailto:TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com]
> > > Envoy=E9=A0: samedi 19 janvier 2019 07:32
> > > =C0=A0: Benjamin Kaduk; BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN
> > > Cc=A0: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org; dots@ietf.org
> > > Objet=A0: RE: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (=
5th
> Part)
> > >
> > > Hi Ben,
> > >
> > > Please see inline
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Dots <dots-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Benjamin Kaduk
> > > > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2019 2:33 AM
> > > > To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
> > > > Cc: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org; dots@ietf.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 =
(5th
> > > Part)
> > > >
> > > > This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not clic=
k
> links
> > > or
> > > > open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the conte=
nt
> is
> > > safe.
> > > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for all the edits and the published -27.
> > > > Assuming I'm actually caught up on all the review/response threads,=
 I
> think
> > > > we're pretty close to being able to go to IETF LC -- here's what I =
see
> as
> > > still left:
> > > >
> > > > - We need to settle the risk of needing normative downrefs called o=
ut
> for
> > > >   the last call
> >
> > [Med] I updated the text to:
> > * cite 7618/7624 as normative (+ indicate that a similar mechanism to f=
alse
> start may also be defined for DTLS).
> > * tweak the TFO text to maintain it as informative.
>=20
> Sounds good.
>=20
> > > > - I just noticed while reviewing the diff that we also need to say =
a
> > > >   little more about (D)TLS 1.3 0-RTT data (more below)
> > > > - It looks like we lost the guidance to the Experts and text about =
the
> > > >   review mailing list from the IANA Considerations, during the
> reshuffling
> > > >   around having IANA manage more things
> > > >
> >
> > [Med] That was on purpose. We would like to rely on RFC8126 rules for
> deigned expert reviews.
>=20
> I'm not sure I understand this -- 8126 explicitly says that documents
> should provide guidance to the designated expert on what to look for and
> what is grounds for rejecting a request.
>=20

[Med] What I meant is that the text we used to have in -25 is generic, and =
IMHO does not bring new guidelines to what is discussed in Section 5 of 812=
6.=20

> > > > Regarding the (D)TLS 1.3 0-RTT data, RFC 8446 notes that "Applicati=
on
> > > > protocols MUST NOT use 0-RTT data without a profile that defines it=
s
> use.
> > > > That profile needs to identify which messages or interactions are s=
afe
> to
> > > use
> > > > with 0-RTT and how to handle the situation when the server rejects =
0-
> RTT
> > > and
> > > > falls back to 1-RTT."  So we either need to say which client reques=
ts
> are
> > > 0-RTT
> > > > safe (and why) or defer that profile to another document.  draft-ie=
tf-
> > > dnsop-
> > > > session-signal is perhaps an example of a document that specifies w=
hich
> > > > messages are/aren't allowed in early data.
> > > > (draft-ietf-acme-acme is another, but an uninteresting one, since t=
hey
> make
> > > > every request include a single-use nonce, and all messages are 0-RT=
T
> safe.)
> > > > Our use of increasing 'mid' values may help here, in terms of allow=
ing
> > > DELETEs
> > > > to be safe, but I'd have to think a little more to be sure that
> requesting
> > > > mitigation would be safe.  (On first glance the session-managemnet =
bits
> > > would
> > > > not be safe, but I may be missing something.)
> > >
> > > The draft only uses idempotent requests (GET, PUT and DELETE), and Co=
AP
> is
> > > capable of detecting message duplication (see
> > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7252#section-4.5) for both confirmable=
 and
> > > non-confirmable messages.
> > >  [1] An attacker replaying DELETE will not have any adverse impact, 2=
.02
> > > (Deleted) Response Code is returned even if the mitigation request do=
es
> not
> > > exist.
> > > [2] The techniques discussed in Section 8 of RFC8446 should suffice t=
o
> handle
> > > anti-replay (e.g. an attacker replaying a 0-RTT data carrying an old
> > > mitigation request replaced by a new mitigation scope).
> > >
> >
> > [Med] FWIW, we do already have this text in the draft:
> >
> >       Section 8 of [RFC8446] discusses some mechanisms to implement to
> >       limit the impact of replay attacks on 0-RTT data.  If the DOTS
> >       server accepts 0-RTT, it MUST implement one of these mechanisms.
> >       A DOTS server can reject 0-RTT by sending a TLS HelloRetryRequest=
.
>=20
> (As I noted in my reply to Tiru, we need a more explicit statement.)
>=20

[Med] OK. If the assessment is confirmed, we can update the text as follows=
: =20

      Section 8 of [RFC8446] discusses some mechanisms to implement to
      limit the impact of replay attacks on 0-RTT data.  If the DOTS
      server accepts 0-RTT, it MUST implement one of these mechanisms.
      A DOTS server can reject 0-RTT by sending a TLS HelloRetryRequest.
      The DOTS signal channel messages sent as early data by the DOTS
      client are idempotent requests.  Owing to the protections afforded
      by CoAP deduplication (Section 4.5 of [RFC7252]) and RFC 8446
      anti-replay mechanisms, all DOTS signal channel messages are safe
      to transmit in TLS 1.3 0-RTT data.

> -Ben


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Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 12:10:33 -0600
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
CC: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@mcafee.com>, "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org>, "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
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References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EA08D24@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <20190118210258.GO81907@kduck.mit.edu> <BYAPR16MB279063917ED17BF8D0331060EA9D0@BYAPR16MB2790.namprd16.prod.outlook.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EA0ABE9@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <20190121151025.GD81907@kduck.mit.edu> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EA0B0DB@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dots/gzjNJDErvzHWeL51e59l2jiP224>
Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (5th Part)
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On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 03:37:38PM +0000, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
> Re-,
> 
> Please see inline. 
> 
> Cheers,
> Med
> 
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : Benjamin Kaduk [mailto:kaduk@mit.edu]
> > Envoyé : lundi 21 janvier 2019 16:10
> > À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN
> > Cc : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy; draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org;
> > dots@ietf.org
> > Objet : Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (5th Part)
> > 
> > On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 07:31:28AM +0000, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
> > > Hi Ben, all,
> > >
> > > Please see inline.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Med
> > >
> > > > -----Message d'origine-----
> > > > De : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
> > [mailto:TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com]
> > > > Envoyé : samedi 19 janvier 2019 07:32
> > > > À : Benjamin Kaduk; BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN
> > > > Cc : draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org; dots@ietf.org
> > > > Objet : RE: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (5th
> > Part)
> > > >
> > > > Hi Ben,
> > > >
> > > > Please see inline
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Dots <dots-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Benjamin Kaduk
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2019 2:33 AM
> > > > > To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
> > > > > Cc: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org; dots@ietf.org
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (5th
> > > > Part)
> > > > >
> > > > > This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click
> > links
> > > > or
> > > > > open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content
> > is
> > > > safe.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi all,
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for all the edits and the published -27.
> > > > > Assuming I'm actually caught up on all the review/response threads, I
> > think
> > > > > we're pretty close to being able to go to IETF LC -- here's what I see
> > as
> > > > still left:
> > > > >
> > > > > - We need to settle the risk of needing normative downrefs called out
> > for
> > > > >   the last call
> > >
> > > [Med] I updated the text to:
> > > * cite 7618/7624 as normative (+ indicate that a similar mechanism to false
> > start may also be defined for DTLS).
> > > * tweak the TFO text to maintain it as informative.
> > 
> > Sounds good.
> > 
> > > > > - I just noticed while reviewing the diff that we also need to say a
> > > > >   little more about (D)TLS 1.3 0-RTT data (more below)
> > > > > - It looks like we lost the guidance to the Experts and text about the
> > > > >   review mailing list from the IANA Considerations, during the
> > reshuffling
> > > > >   around having IANA manage more things
> > > > >
> > >
> > > [Med] That was on purpose. We would like to rely on RFC8126 rules for
> > deigned expert reviews.
> > 
> > I'm not sure I understand this -- 8126 explicitly says that documents
> > should provide guidance to the designated expert on what to look for and
> > what is grounds for rejecting a request.
> > 
> 
> [Med] What I meant is that the text we used to have in -25 is generic, and IMHO does not bring new guidelines to what is discussed in Section 5 of 8126. 

I think there can still be value in repeating the "general applicability,
clarity of description, etc. language.  (But it would be even better to
come up with some guidance that is tightly tailored to DOTS, if we can.)
And the text about the mailing list and how to format registration requests
is definitely not covered in 8126!

> > > > > Regarding the (D)TLS 1.3 0-RTT data, RFC 8446 notes that "Application
> > > > > protocols MUST NOT use 0-RTT data without a profile that defines its
> > use.
> > > > > That profile needs to identify which messages or interactions are safe
> > to
> > > > use
> > > > > with 0-RTT and how to handle the situation when the server rejects 0-
> > RTT
> > > > and
> > > > > falls back to 1-RTT."  So we either need to say which client requests
> > are
> > > > 0-RTT
> > > > > safe (and why) or defer that profile to another document.  draft-ietf-
> > > > dnsop-
> > > > > session-signal is perhaps an example of a document that specifies which
> > > > > messages are/aren't allowed in early data.
> > > > > (draft-ietf-acme-acme is another, but an uninteresting one, since they
> > make
> > > > > every request include a single-use nonce, and all messages are 0-RTT
> > safe.)
> > > > > Our use of increasing 'mid' values may help here, in terms of allowing
> > > > DELETEs
> > > > > to be safe, but I'd have to think a little more to be sure that
> > requesting
> > > > > mitigation would be safe.  (On first glance the session-managemnet bits
> > > > would
> > > > > not be safe, but I may be missing something.)
> > > >
> > > > The draft only uses idempotent requests (GET, PUT and DELETE), and CoAP
> > is
> > > > capable of detecting message duplication (see
> > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7252#section-4.5) for both confirmable and
> > > > non-confirmable messages.
> > > >  [1] An attacker replaying DELETE will not have any adverse impact, 2.02
> > > > (Deleted) Response Code is returned even if the mitigation request does
> > not
> > > > exist.
> > > > [2] The techniques discussed in Section 8 of RFC8446 should suffice to
> > handle
> > > > anti-replay (e.g. an attacker replaying a 0-RTT data carrying an old
> > > > mitigation request replaced by a new mitigation scope).
> > > >
> > >
> > > [Med] FWIW, we do already have this text in the draft:
> > >
> > >       Section 8 of [RFC8446] discusses some mechanisms to implement to
> > >       limit the impact of replay attacks on 0-RTT data.  If the DOTS
> > >       server accepts 0-RTT, it MUST implement one of these mechanisms.
> > >       A DOTS server can reject 0-RTT by sending a TLS HelloRetryRequest.
> > 
> > (As I noted in my reply to Tiru, we need a more explicit statement.)
> > 
> 
> [Med] OK. If the assessment is confirmed, we can update the text as follows:  
> 
>       Section 8 of [RFC8446] discusses some mechanisms to implement to
>       limit the impact of replay attacks on 0-RTT data.  If the DOTS
>       server accepts 0-RTT, it MUST implement one of these mechanisms.
>       A DOTS server can reject 0-RTT by sending a TLS HelloRetryRequest.
>       The DOTS signal channel messages sent as early data by the DOTS
>       client are idempotent requests.  Owing to the protections afforded
>       by CoAP deduplication (Section 4.5 of [RFC7252]) and RFC 8446
>       anti-replay mechanisms, all DOTS signal channel messages are safe
>       to transmit in TLS 1.3 0-RTT data.

That text would meet the "application profile" requirements.  Hopefully
it's a true statement so we can actually use it :)

-Ben


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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
CC: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@mcafee.com>, "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org>, "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (5th Part)
Thread-Index: AQHUsbSfqlO5vmTWCU+CwUtqisCqc6W61cdQ
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 07:15:37 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (5th Part)
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Hi Ben,=20

Please see inline.

Cheers,
Med

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De=A0: Benjamin Kaduk [mailto:kaduk@mit.edu]
> Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 21 janvier 2019 19:11
> =C0=A0: BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN
> Cc=A0: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy; draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org=
;
> dots@ietf.org
> Objet=A0: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (5th =
Part)
>=20
> On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 03:37:38PM +0000, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wr=
ote:
> > Re-,
> >
> > Please see inline.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Med
> >
> > > -----Message d'origine-----
> > > De=A0: Benjamin Kaduk [mailto:kaduk@mit.edu]
> > > Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 21 janvier 2019 16:10
> > > =C0=A0: BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN
> > > Cc=A0: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy; draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf=
.org;
> > > dots@ietf.org
> > > Objet=A0: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (=
5th
> Part)
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 07:31:28AM +0000, mohamed.boucadair@orange.co=
m
> wrote:
> > > > Hi Ben, all,
> > > >
> > > > Please see inline.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Med
> > > >
> > > > > -----Message d'origine-----
> > > > > De=A0: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
> > > [mailto:TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com]
> > > > > Envoy=E9=A0: samedi 19 janvier 2019 07:32
> > > > > =C0=A0: Benjamin Kaduk; BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN
> > > > > Cc=A0: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org; dots@ietf.org
> > > > > Objet=A0: RE: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-=
25
> (5th
> > > Part)
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Ben,
> > > > >
> > > > > Please see inline
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Dots <dots-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Benjamin Kaduk
> > > > > > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2019 2:33 AM
> > > > > > To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
> > > > > > Cc: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org; dots@ietf.org
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel=
-25
> (5th
> > > > > Part)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
> click
> > > links
> > > > > or
> > > > > > open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the
> content
> > > is
> > > > > safe.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi all,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks for all the edits and the published -27.
> > > > > > Assuming I'm actually caught up on all the review/response thre=
ads,
> I
> > > think
> > > > > > we're pretty close to being able to go to IETF LC -- here's wha=
t I
> see
> > > as
> > > > > still left:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > - We need to settle the risk of needing normative downrefs call=
ed
> out
> > > for
> > > > > >   the last call
> > > >
> > > > [Med] I updated the text to:
> > > > * cite 7618/7624 as normative (+ indicate that a similar mechanism =
to
> false
> > > start may also be defined for DTLS).
> > > > * tweak the TFO text to maintain it as informative.
> > >
> > > Sounds good.
> > >
> > > > > > - I just noticed while reviewing the diff that we also need to =
say
> a
> > > > > >   little more about (D)TLS 1.3 0-RTT data (more below)
> > > > > > - It looks like we lost the guidance to the Experts and text ab=
out
> the
> > > > > >   review mailing list from the IANA Considerations, during the
> > > reshuffling
> > > > > >   around having IANA manage more things
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Med] That was on purpose. We would like to rely on RFC8126 rules f=
or
> > > deigned expert reviews.
> > >
> > > I'm not sure I understand this -- 8126 explicitly says that documents
> > > should provide guidance to the designated expert on what to look for =
and
> > > what is grounds for rejecting a request.
> > >
> >
> > [Med] What I meant is that the text we used to have in -25 is generic, =
and
> IMHO does not bring new guidelines to what is discussed in Section 5 of 8=
126.
>=20
> I think there can still be value in repeating the "general applicability,
> clarity of description, etc. language.  (But it would be even better to
> come up with some guidance that is tightly tailored to DOTS, if we can.)

[Med] I tried, actually. It is indeed when I rechecked 8126 that I found th=
at text is generic. Seeking for expert reviews will be done via IANA, which=
 is familiar with the process of soliciting experts.=20

Moreover, I found a bug in the text because it does not apply to the range =
requiring IETF review, but only to a the comprehensive-optional range.=20

> And the text about the mailing list and how to format registration reques=
ts
> is definitely not covered in 8126!

[Med] that mailing list is likely to include the designed experts. This is =
why I thought it is simple to let IANA decide how to reach out designed exp=
ert(s) once assigned.=20

Anyway, I can reinsert the text if you still think it brings value.=20

>=20
> > > > > > Regarding the (D)TLS 1.3 0-RTT data, RFC 8446 notes that
> "Application
> > > > > > protocols MUST NOT use 0-RTT data without a profile that define=
s
> its
> > > use.
> > > > > > That profile needs to identify which messages or interactions a=
re
> safe
> > > to
> > > > > use
> > > > > > with 0-RTT and how to handle the situation when the server reje=
cts
> 0-
> > > RTT
> > > > > and
> > > > > > falls back to 1-RTT."  So we either need to say which client
> requests
> > > are
> > > > > 0-RTT
> > > > > > safe (and why) or defer that profile to another document.  draf=
t-
> ietf-
> > > > > dnsop-
> > > > > > session-signal is perhaps an example of a document that specifi=
es
> which
> > > > > > messages are/aren't allowed in early data.
> > > > > > (draft-ietf-acme-acme is another, but an uninteresting one, sin=
ce
> they
> > > make
> > > > > > every request include a single-use nonce, and all messages are =
0-
> RTT
> > > safe.)
> > > > > > Our use of increasing 'mid' values may help here, in terms of
> allowing
> > > > > DELETEs
> > > > > > to be safe, but I'd have to think a little more to be sure that
> > > requesting
> > > > > > mitigation would be safe.  (On first glance the session-managem=
net
> bits
> > > > > would
> > > > > > not be safe, but I may be missing something.)
> > > > >
> > > > > The draft only uses idempotent requests (GET, PUT and DELETE), an=
d
> CoAP
> > > is
> > > > > capable of detecting message duplication (see
> > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7252#section-4.5) for both confirm=
able
> and
> > > > > non-confirmable messages.
> > > > >  [1] An attacker replaying DELETE will not have any adverse impac=
t,
> 2.02
> > > > > (Deleted) Response Code is returned even if the mitigation reques=
t
> does
> > > not
> > > > > exist.
> > > > > [2] The techniques discussed in Section 8 of RFC8446 should suffi=
ce
> to
> > > handle
> > > > > anti-replay (e.g. an attacker replaying a 0-RTT data carrying an =
old
> > > > > mitigation request replaced by a new mitigation scope).
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Med] FWIW, we do already have this text in the draft:
> > > >
> > > >       Section 8 of [RFC8446] discusses some mechanisms to implement=
 to
> > > >       limit the impact of replay attacks on 0-RTT data.  If the DOT=
S
> > > >       server accepts 0-RTT, it MUST implement one of these mechanis=
ms.
> > > >       A DOTS server can reject 0-RTT by sending a TLS
> HelloRetryRequest.
> > >
> > > (As I noted in my reply to Tiru, we need a more explicit statement.)
> > >
> >
> > [Med] OK. If the assessment is confirmed, we can update the text as
> follows:
> >
> >       Section 8 of [RFC8446] discusses some mechanisms to implement to
> >       limit the impact of replay attacks on 0-RTT data.  If the DOTS
> >       server accepts 0-RTT, it MUST implement one of these mechanisms.
> >       A DOTS server can reject 0-RTT by sending a TLS HelloRetryRequest=
.
> >       The DOTS signal channel messages sent as early data by the DOTS
> >       client are idempotent requests.  Owing to the protections afforde=
d
> >       by CoAP deduplication (Section 4.5 of [RFC7252]) and RFC 8446
> >       anti-replay mechanisms, all DOTS signal channel messages are safe
> >       to transmit in TLS 1.3 0-RTT data.
>=20
> That text would meet the "application profile" requirements.  Hopefully
> it's a true statement so we can actually use it :)
>=20

[Med] That is at least the authors' conclusion :)=20
We will wait for your ACK before implementing changes and posting the updat=
ed version of the draft.=20


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From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>
To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "Benjamin Kaduk" <kaduk@mit.edu>
CC: "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org>, "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (5th Part)
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Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (5th Part)
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ZWVycw0KLVRpcnUNCg==


From nobody Tue Jan 22 14:30:57 2019
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Subject: [Dots] dots - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 104
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A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Roman Danyliw, a Chair of the dots working group.


---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: DDoS Open Threat Signaling
Area Name: Security Area
Session Requester: Roman Danyliw

Number of Sessions: 1
Length of Session(s):  2 Hours
Number of Attendees: 50
Conflicts to Avoid: 
 First Priority: mile i2nsf sacm saag secdispatch ace
 Second Priority: opsawg



People who must be present:
  Roman Danyliw
  Liang Xia
  Benjamin Kaduk

Resources Requested:

Special Requests:
  
---------------------------------------------------------


From nobody Wed Jan 23 04:15:35 2019
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
CC: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@mcafee.com>, "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org>, "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Designed Expert Guidelines (RE: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (5th Part))
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Subject: [Dots] Designed Expert Guidelines (RE: AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (5th Part))
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Hi Ben,=20

I implemented this change in my local copy:=20

OLD:=20
   CBOR Key Value:
      Key value for the parameter.  The key value MUST be an integer in
      the 1-65535 range.  The key values of the comprehension-required
      range (0x0001 - 0x3FFF) and of the comprehension-optional range
      (0x8000 - 0xBFFF) are assigned by IETF Review [RFC8126].  The key
      values of the comprehension-optional range (0x4000 - 0x7FFF) are
      assigned by Designated Expert [RFC8126] and of the comprehension-
      optional range (0xC000 - 0xFFFF) are reserved for Private Use
      [RFC8126].

NEW:
   CBOR Key Value:
      Key value for the parameter.  The key value MUST be an integer in
      the 1-65535 range.  The key values of the comprehension-required
      range (0x0001 - 0x3FFF) and of the comprehension-optional range
      (0x8000 - 0xBFFF) are assigned by IETF Review (Section 4.8 of
      [RFC8126]).  The key values of the comprehension-optional range
      (0x4000 - 0x7FFF) are assigned by Specification Required
      (Section 4.6 of [RFC8126]) and of the comprehension-optional range
      (0xC000 - 0xFFFF) are reserved for Private Use (Section 4.1 of
      [RFC8126]).

      Registration requests for the 0x4000 - 0x7FFF range are evaluated
      after a three-week review period on the dots-signal-reg-
      review@ietf.org mailing list, on the advice of one or more
      Designated Experts.  However, to allow for the allocation of
      values prior to publication, the Designated Experts may approve
      registration once they are satisfied that such a specification
      will be published.  Registration requests sent to the mailing list
      for review should use an appropriate subject (e.g., "Request to
      register CBOR Key Value: example").

      Within the review period, the Designated Experts will either
      approve or deny the registration request, communicating this
      decision to the review list and IANA.  Denials should include an
      explanation and, if applicable, suggestions as to how to make the
      request successful.  Registration requests that are undetermined
      for a period longer than 21 days can be brought to the IESG's
      attention (using the iesg@ietf.org mailing list) for resolution.

      Criteria that should be applied by the Designated Experts includes
      determining whether the proposed registration duplicates existing
      functionality, whether it is likely to be of general applicability
      or whether it is useful only for a single use case, and whether
      the registration description is clear.  IANA must only accept
      registry updates to the 0x4000 - 0x7FFF range from the Designated
      Experts and should direct all requests for registration to the
      review mailing list.  It is suggested that multiple Designated
      Experts be appointed.  In cases where a registration decision
      could be perceived as creating a conflict of interest for a
      particular Expert, that Expert should defer to the judgment of the
      other Experts.

Cheers,
Med

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De=A0: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com]
> Envoy=E9=A0: mardi 22 janvier 2019 08:16
> =C0=A0: Benjamin Kaduk
> Cc=A0: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy; draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org=
;
> dots@ietf.org
> Objet=A0: RE: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (5th =
Part)
>=20
> Hi Ben,
>=20
> Please see inline.
>=20
> Cheers,
> Med
>=20
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De=A0: Benjamin Kaduk [mailto:kaduk@mit.edu]
> > Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 21 janvier 2019 19:11
> > =C0=A0: BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN
> > Cc=A0: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy; draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.o=
rg;
> > dots@ietf.org
> > Objet=A0: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25 (5t=
h
> Part)
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 03:37:38PM +0000, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
> wrote:
> > > Re-,
> > >
> > > Please see inline.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Med
> > >
> > > > -----Message d'origine-----
> > > > De=A0: Benjamin Kaduk [mailto:kaduk@mit.edu]
> > > > Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 21 janvier 2019 16:10
> > > > =C0=A0: BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN
> > > > Cc=A0: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy; draft-ietf-dots-signal-
> channel@ietf.org;
> > > > dots@ietf.org
> > > > Objet=A0: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-25=
 (5th
> > Part)
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 07:31:28AM +0000, mohamed.boucadair@orange.=
com
> > wrote:
> > > > > Hi Ben, all,
> > > > >
> > > > > Please see inline.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > Med
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Message d'origine-----
> > > > > > De=A0: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
> > > > [mailto:TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com]
> > > > > > Envoy=E9=A0: samedi 19 janvier 2019 07:32
> > > > > > =C0=A0: Benjamin Kaduk; BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN
> > > > > > Cc=A0: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org; dots@ietf.org
> > > > > > Objet=A0: RE: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channe=
l-25
> > (5th
> > > > Part)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Ben,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Please see inline
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: Dots <dots-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Benjamin Kadu=
k
> > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2019 2:33 AM
> > > > > > > To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
> > > > > > > Cc: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org; dots@ietf.org
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-chann=
el-
> 25
> > (5th
> > > > > > Part)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This email originated from outside of the organization. Do no=
t
> > click
> > > > links
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the
> > content
> > > > is
> > > > > > safe.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi all,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks for all the edits and the published -27.
> > > > > > > Assuming I'm actually caught up on all the review/response
> threads,
> > I
> > > > think
> > > > > > > we're pretty close to being able to go to IETF LC -- here's w=
hat
> I
> > see
> > > > as
> > > > > > still left:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > - We need to settle the risk of needing normative downrefs ca=
lled
> > out
> > > > for
> > > > > > >   the last call
> > > > >
> > > > > [Med] I updated the text to:
> > > > > * cite 7618/7624 as normative (+ indicate that a similar mechanis=
m to
> > false
> > > > start may also be defined for DTLS).
> > > > > * tweak the TFO text to maintain it as informative.
> > > >
> > > > Sounds good.
> > > >
> > > > > > > - I just noticed while reviewing the diff that we also need t=
o
> say
> > a
> > > > > > >   little more about (D)TLS 1.3 0-RTT data (more below)
> > > > > > > - It looks like we lost the guidance to the Experts and text
> about
> > the
> > > > > > >   review mailing list from the IANA Considerations, during th=
e
> > > > reshuffling
> > > > > > >   around having IANA manage more things
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Med] That was on purpose. We would like to rely on RFC8126 rules=
 for
> > > > deigned expert reviews.
> > > >
> > > > I'm not sure I understand this -- 8126 explicitly says that documen=
ts
> > > > should provide guidance to the designated expert on what to look fo=
r
> and
> > > > what is grounds for rejecting a request.
> > > >
> > >
> > > [Med] What I meant is that the text we used to have in -25 is generic=
,
> and
> > IMHO does not bring new guidelines to what is discussed in Section 5 of
> 8126.
> >
> > I think there can still be value in repeating the "general applicabilit=
y,
> > clarity of description, etc. language.  (But it would be even better to
> > come up with some guidance that is tightly tailored to DOTS, if we can.=
)
>=20
> [Med] I tried, actually. It is indeed when I rechecked 8126 that I found =
that
> text is generic. Seeking for expert reviews will be done via IANA, which =
is
> familiar with the process of soliciting experts.
>=20
> Moreover, I found a bug in the text because it does not apply to the rang=
e
> requiring IETF review, but only to a the comprehensive-optional range.
>=20
> > And the text about the mailing list and how to format registration requ=
ests
> > is definitely not covered in 8126!
>=20
> [Med] that mailing list is likely to include the designed experts. This i=
s
> why I thought it is simple to let IANA decide how to reach out designed
> expert(s) once assigned.
>=20
> Anyway, I can reinsert the text if you still think it brings value.
>=20
> >
> > > > > > > Regarding the (D)TLS 1.3 0-RTT data, RFC 8446 notes that
> > "Application
> > > > > > > protocols MUST NOT use 0-RTT data without a profile that defi=
nes
> > its
> > > > use.
> > > > > > > That profile needs to identify which messages or interactions=
 are
> > safe
> > > > to
> > > > > > use
> > > > > > > with 0-RTT and how to handle the situation when the server
> rejects
> > 0-
> > > > RTT
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > falls back to 1-RTT."  So we either need to say which client
> > requests
> > > > are
> > > > > > 0-RTT
> > > > > > > safe (and why) or defer that profile to another document.  dr=
aft-
> > ietf-
> > > > > > dnsop-
> > > > > > > session-signal is perhaps an example of a document that speci=
fies
> > which
> > > > > > > messages are/aren't allowed in early data.
> > > > > > > (draft-ietf-acme-acme is another, but an uninteresting one, s=
ince
> > they
> > > > make
> > > > > > > every request include a single-use nonce, and all messages ar=
e 0-
> > RTT
> > > > safe.)
> > > > > > > Our use of increasing 'mid' values may help here, in terms of
> > allowing
> > > > > > DELETEs
> > > > > > > to be safe, but I'd have to think a little more to be sure th=
at
> > > > requesting
> > > > > > > mitigation would be safe.  (On first glance the session-
> managemnet
> > bits
> > > > > > would
> > > > > > > not be safe, but I may be missing something.)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The draft only uses idempotent requests (GET, PUT and DELETE), =
and
> > CoAP
> > > > is
> > > > > > capable of detecting message duplication (see
> > > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7252#section-4.5) for both
> confirmable
> > and
> > > > > > non-confirmable messages.
> > > > > >  [1] An attacker replaying DELETE will not have any adverse imp=
act,
> > 2.02
> > > > > > (Deleted) Response Code is returned even if the mitigation requ=
est
> > does
> > > > not
> > > > > > exist.
> > > > > > [2] The techniques discussed in Section 8 of RFC8446 should suf=
fice
> > to
> > > > handle
> > > > > > anti-replay (e.g. an attacker replaying a 0-RTT data carrying a=
n
> old
> > > > > > mitigation request replaced by a new mitigation scope).
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Med] FWIW, we do already have this text in the draft:
> > > > >
> > > > >       Section 8 of [RFC8446] discusses some mechanisms to impleme=
nt
> to
> > > > >       limit the impact of replay attacks on 0-RTT data.  If the D=
OTS
> > > > >       server accepts 0-RTT, it MUST implement one of these
> mechanisms.
> > > > >       A DOTS server can reject 0-RTT by sending a TLS
> > HelloRetryRequest.
> > > >
> > > > (As I noted in my reply to Tiru, we need a more explicit statement.=
)
> > > >
> > >
> > > [Med] OK. If the assessment is confirmed, we can update the text as
> > follows:
> > >
> > >       Section 8 of [RFC8446] discusses some mechanisms to implement t=
o
> > >       limit the impact of replay attacks on 0-RTT data.  If the DOTS
> > >       server accepts 0-RTT, it MUST implement one of these mechanisms=
.
> > >       A DOTS server can reject 0-RTT by sending a TLS HelloRetryReque=
st


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To: "Panwei (William)" <william.panwei@huawei.com>
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Thread-Topic: Comments on draft-nishizuka-dots-signal-control-filtering-02
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: "Panwei (William)" <william.panwei@huawei.com>
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Thread-Topic: Comments on draft-nishizuka-dots-signal-control-filtering-02
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Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 12:33:36 +0000
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From nobody Sat Jan 26 01:38:15 2019
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From: "Panwei (William)" <william.panwei@huawei.com>
To: "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Call for adoption on draft-boucadair-dots-server-discovery
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Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 09:38:00 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dots] Call for adoption on draft-boucadair-dots-server-discovery
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Hi,



I support adoption of this draft.



Two typos:

1. Section 5
When only DOTS server' IP
               ^^^^^^^
addresses are configured, a reference identifier must also be
configured for authentication purposes.

"server'" should be "server's".



2. Section 9.1.2 and 9.2.2
9.1.2. Format Format of DOTS Address Option
       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
9.2.2. Format Format of DOTS Address Option
       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Duplicate "Format".



Two comments:

1. Section 9.1.1 and 9.2.1 describe the DOTS Reference Identifier Option, b=
ut the content of these Option is DOTS server name. I'm not quite familiar =
with this, so I just raise this and want to make sure if the content is rig=
ht.

2. In section 9.1.2, the "List of DOTS IPv4 Addresses" contains one or more=
 IPv4 addresses of a DOTS server, and the "OPTION_V4_DOTS" can include mult=
iple lists. When the "OPTION_V4_DOTS" includes multiple lists, do these lis=
ts belong to one DOTS server or multiple DOTS servers? My understanding is =
that multiple lists belong to multiple DOTS servers and one DOTS server onl=
y has one list. I'm not quite sure, maybe an example can be added in the dr=
aft.





Best Regards

Wei Pan





> -----Original Message-----

> From: Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roman Danyliw

> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2018 6:22 AM

> To: dots@ietf.org

> Subject: [Dots] Call for adoption on draft-boucadair-dots-server-discover=
y

>

> Hello!

>

> This is the start of a two week call for input on the WG adoption of the

> document:

>

> draft-boucadair-dots-server-discovery

> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-dots-server-discovery-05

>

> The document has been presented and discussed at IETF 103, IETF 100

> and IETF 99;  and revisions have been made based on WG feedback.

> Discussion of adoption of this draft was previously deferred pending

> submission of the signal draft for publication (which occurred in

> September 2018).

>

> At the IETF 103 meeting, there were not many participants who had read

> the draft.

>

> Please provide feedback to the list/chairs if you believe that this

> document should be adopted as a WG document.  The adoption call will

> end on December 14 2018.

>

> Regards,

> Roman and Frank

>

> _______________________________________________

> Dots mailing list

> Dots@ietf.org<mailto:Dots@ietf.org>

> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots

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div.WordSection1
	{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">Hi,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">I support adoption of =
this draft. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">Two typos:<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">1. Section 5<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:14.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-autospace:none=
">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Courier">When only DOTS server&=
#8217; IP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:14.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-autospace:none=
">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Courier">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ^^^^^^^<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:14.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-autospace:none=
">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Courier">addresses are configur=
ed, a reference identifier must also be<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:14.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-autospace:none=
">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Courier">configured for authent=
ication purposes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">&#8220;server&#8217;&#=
8221; should be &#8220;server&#8217;s&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">2. Section 9.1.2 and 9=
.2.2<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:14.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-autospace:none=
">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Courier">9.1.2. Format Format o=
f DOTS Address Option<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:14.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-autospace:none=
">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Courier">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; ^^^^^^^^^^^^^<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:14.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-autospace:none=
">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Courier">9.2.2. Format Format o=
f DOTS Address Option<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:14.2pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-autospace:none=
">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Courier">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; ^^^^^^^^^^^^^<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">Duplicate &#8220;Forma=
t&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">Two comments:<o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">1. Section 9.1.1 and 9=
.2.1 describe the DOTS Reference Identifier Option, but the content of thes=
e Option is DOTS server name. I&#8217;m not quite familiar with this, so I =
just raise this and want to make sure if the
 content is right.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">2. In section 9.1.2, t=
he &#8220;List of DOTS IPv4 Addresses&#8221; contains one or more IPv4 addr=
esses of a DOTS server, and the &#8220;OPTION_V4_DOTS&#8221; can include mu=
ltiple lists. When the &#8220;OPTION_V4_DOTS&#8221; includes multiple lists=
,
 do these lists belong to one DOTS server or multiple DOTS servers? My unde=
rstanding is that multiple lists belong to multiple DOTS servers and one DO=
TS server only has one list. I&#8217;m not quite sure, maybe an example can=
 be added in the draft.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">Best Regards<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">Wei Pan<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">&gt; -----Original Mes=
sage-----</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">&gt; From: Dots [mailt=
o:dots-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roman Danyliw</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">&gt; Sent: Saturday, D=
ecember 01, 2018 6:22 AM</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">&gt; To: dots@ietf.org=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">&gt; Subject: [Dots] C=
all for adoption on draft-boucadair-dots-server-discovery</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">&gt; </p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">&gt; Hello!</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">&gt; </p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">&gt; This is the start=
 of a two week call for input on the WG adoption of the</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">&gt; document:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">&gt; </p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">&gt; draft-boucadair-d=
ots-server-discovery</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">&gt; <a href=3D"https:=
//tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-dots-server-discovery-05">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">https://tools.ietf.or=
g/html/draft-boucadair-dots-server-discovery-05</span></a></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">&gt; </p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">&gt; The document has =
been presented and discussed at IETF 103, IETF 100</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">&gt; and IETF 99;&nbsp=
; and revisions have been made based on WG feedback.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">&gt; Discussion of ado=
ption of this draft was previously deferred pending</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">&gt; submission of the=
 signal draft for publication (which occurred in</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">&gt; September 2018).<=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">&gt; </p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">&gt; At the IETF 103 m=
eeting, there were not many participants who had read</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">&gt; the draft.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">&gt; </p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">&gt; Please provide fe=
edback to the list/chairs if you believe that this</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">&gt; document should b=
e adopted as a WG document.&nbsp; The adoption call will</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">&gt; end on December 1=
4 2018.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">&gt; </p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">&gt; Regards,</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">&gt; Roman and Frank</=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">&gt; </p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">&gt; _________________=
______________________________</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">&gt; Dots mailing list=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">&gt; <a href=3D"mailto=
:Dots@ietf.org">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">Dots@ietf.org</span><=
/a></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-top:3.6pt">&gt; <a href=3D"https:=
//www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/dots</span></a></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_30E95A901DB42F44BA42D69DB20DFA6A6093D744nkgeml513mbxchi_--


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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: I-D Action: draft-nishizuka-dots-signal-control-filtering-03.txt
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Hi all,=20

This version integrates the comments from Wei Pan.=20

Cheers,
Med

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De=A0: I-D-Announce [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de
> internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 25 janvier 2019 14:07
> =C0=A0: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Objet=A0: I-D Action: draft-nishizuka-dots-signal-control-filtering-03.tx=
t
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
>=20
>=20
>         Title           : Controlling Filtering Rules Using DOTS Signal
> Channel
>         Authors         : Kaname Nishizuka
>                           Takahiko Nagata
>                           Tirumaleswar Reddy
>                           Mohamed Boucadair
> 	Filename        : draft-nishizuka-dots-signal-control-filtering-03.txt
> 	Pages           : 16
> 	Date            : 2019-01-25
>=20
> Abstract:
>    This document specifies an extension to the DOTS signal channel to
>    control the filtering rules when an attack mitigation is active.
>=20
>    Particularly, this extension allows a DOTS client to activate or de-
>    activate filtering rules during a DDoS attack.  The characterization
>    of these filtering rules is supposed to be conveyed by a DOTS client
>    during peace time by means of DOTS data channel.
>=20
> Editorial Note (To be removed by RFC Editor)
>=20
>    Please update these statements within the document with the RFC
>    number to be assigned to this document:
>=20
>    o  "This version of this YANG module is part of RFC XXXX;"
>=20
>    o  "RFC XXXX: Controlling Filtering Rules Using DOTS Signal Channel";
>=20
>    o  reference: RFC XXXX
>=20
>    o  [RFCXXXX]
>=20
>    Please update these statements with the RFC number to be assigned to
>    the following documents:
>=20
>    o  "RFC SSSS: Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling
>       (DOTS) Signal Channel Specification" (used to be
>       [I-D.ietf-dots-signal-channel])
>=20
>    o  "RFC DDDD: Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling
>       (DOTS) Data Channel Specification" (used to be
>       [I-D.ietf-dots-data-channel])
>=20
>    Please update the "revision" date of the YANG module.
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nishizuka-dots-signal-control-
> filtering/
>=20
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nishizuka-dots-signal-control-filtering=
-03
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-nishizuka-dots-signal-control=
-
> filtering-03
>=20
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-nishizuka-dots-signal-control-
> filtering-03
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss=
ion
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> I-D-Announce mailing list
> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt


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Subject: [Dots] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-28.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the DDoS Open Threat Signaling WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) Signal Channel Specification
        Authors         : Tirumaleswar Reddy
                          Mohamed Boucadair
                          Prashanth Patil
                          Andrew Mortensen
                          Nik Teague
	Filename        : draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-28.txt
	Pages           : 99
	Date            : 2019-01-29

Abstract:
   This document specifies the DOTS signal channel, a protocol for
   signaling the need for protection against Distributed Denial-of-
   Service (DDoS) attacks to a server capable of enabling network
   traffic mitigation on behalf of the requesting client.

   A companion document defines the DOTS data channel, a separate
   reliable communication layer for DOTS management and configuration
   purposes.

Editorial Note (To be removed by RFC Editor)

   Please update these statements within the document with the RFC
   number to be assigned to this document:

   o  "This version of this YANG module is part of RFC XXXX;"

   o  "RFC XXXX: Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling
      (DOTS) Signal Channel Specification";

   o  "| [RFCXXXX] |"

   o  reference: RFC XXXX

   Please update this statement with the RFC number to be assigned to
   the following documents:

   o  "RFC YYYY: Distributed Denial-of-Service Open Threat Signaling
      (DOTS) Data Channel Specification (used to be
      [I-D.ietf-dots-data-channel])

   Please update TBD/TBD1/TBD2 statements with the assignments made by
   IANA to DOTS Signal Channel Protocol.

   Also, please update the "revision" date of the YANG modules.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-28
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-28

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel-28


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
CC: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@mcafee.com>, "draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel@ietf.org>, "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Using Early Data in DOTS (RE: [Dots] AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel)
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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2019 13:31:36 +0000
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Subject: [Dots] Using Early Data in DOTS (RE: AD review of draft-ietf-dots-signal-channel)
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Hi Ben, all,=20

We edited a short draft (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-dots-e=
arlydata-00) to motivate the following text included in the signal channel =
draft:

      Section 8 of [RFC8446] discusses some mechanisms to implement to
      limit the impact of replay attacks on 0-RTT data.  If the DOTS
      server accepts 0-RTT, it MUST implement one of these mechanisms.
      A DOTS server can reject 0-RTT by sending a TLS HelloRetryRequest.
      The DOTS signal channel messages sent as early data by the DOTS
      client are idempotent requests.  As a reminder, Message ID
      (Section 3 of [RFC7252]) is changed each time a new CoAP request
      is sent, and the Token (Section 5.3.1 of [RFC7252]) is randomized
      in each CoAP request.  The DOTS server(s) can use Message ID and
      Token in the DOTS signal channel message to detect replay of early
      data, and accept 0-RTT data at most once.  Furthermore, 'mid'
      value is monotonically increased by the DOTS client for each
      mitigation request, attackers replaying mitigation requests with
      lower numeric 'mid' values and overlapping scopes with mitigation
      requests having higher numeric 'mid' values will be rejected
      systematically by the DOTS server.

      Owing to the aforementioned protections, especially those afforded
      by CoAP deduplication (Section 4.5 of [RFC7252]) and RFC 8446
      anti-replay mechanisms, all DOTS signal channel requests are safe
      to transmit in TLS 1.3 as early data.  Refer to
      [I-D.boucadair-dots-earlydata] for more details.

This text and also the Designated Expert guidelines are implemented in -28.=
 These are the two pending issues from your AD review.=20

Other edits were also made to record what was agreed on the list.

We hope this version is now ready to move forward.=20

Cheers,
Med

> > > > > Regarding the (D)TLS 1.3 0-RTT data, RFC 8446 notes that "Applica=
tion
> > > > > protocols MUST NOT use 0-RTT data without a profile that defines =
its
> > use.
> > > > > That profile needs to identify which messages or interactions are
> safe
> > to
> > > > use
> > > > > with 0-RTT and how to handle the situation when the server reject=
s 0-
> > RTT
> > > > and
> > > > > falls back to 1-RTT."  So we either need to say which client requ=
ests
> > are
> > > > 0-RTT
> > > > > safe (and why) or defer that profile to another document.  draft-
> ietf-
> > > > dnsop-
> > > > > session-signal is perhaps an example of a document that specifies
> which
> > > > > messages are/aren't allowed in early data.
> > > > > (draft-ietf-acme-acme is another, but an uninteresting one, since
> they
> > make
> > > > > every request include a single-use nonce, and all messages are 0-=
RTT
> > safe.)
> > > > > Our use of increasing 'mid' values may help here, in terms of
> allowing
> > > > DELETEs
> > > > > to be safe, but I'd have to think a little more to be sure that
> > requesting
> > > > > mitigation would be safe.  (On first glance the session-managemne=
t
> bits
> > > > would
> > > > > not be safe, but I may be missing something.)
> > > >
> > > > The draft only uses idempotent requests (GET, PUT and DELETE), and =
CoAP
> > is
> > > > capable of detecting message duplication (see
> > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7252#section-4.5) for both confirmab=
le
> and
> > > > non-confirmable messages.
> > > >  [1] An attacker replaying DELETE will not have any adverse impact,
> 2.02
> > > > (Deleted) Response Code is returned even if the mitigation request =
does
> > not
> > > > exist.
> > > > [2] The techniques discussed in Section 8 of RFC8446 should suffice=
 to
> > handle
> > > > anti-replay (e.g. an attacker replaying a 0-RTT data carrying an ol=
d
> > > > mitigation request replaced by a new mitigation scope).
> > > >
> > >
> > > [Med] FWIW, we do already have this text in the draft:
> > >
> > >       Section 8 of [RFC8446] discusses some mechanisms to implement t=
o
> > >       limit the impact of replay attacks on 0-RTT data.  If the DOTS
> > >       server accepts 0-RTT, it MUST implement one of these mechanisms=
.
> > >       A DOTS server can reject 0-RTT by sending a TLS HelloRetryReque=
st


From nobody Wed Jan 30 22:53:09 2019
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Subject: [Dots] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dots-requirements-17.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the DDoS Open Threat Signaling WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Distributed Denial of Service (DDoS) Open Threat Signaling Requirements
        Authors         : Andrew Mortensen
                          Robert Moskowitz
                          Tirumaleswar Reddy
	Filename        : draft-ietf-dots-requirements-17.txt
	Pages           : 21
	Date            : 2019-01-30

Abstract:
   This document defines the requirements for the Distributed Denial of
   Service (DDoS) Open Threat Signaling (DOTS) protocols enabling
   coordinated response to DDoS attacks.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dots-requirements/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dots-requirements-17
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-dots-requirements-17

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dots-requirements-17


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

